Pompeii ~ by Robert Harris ~ 7/04 ~ Book Club Onl Export

POMPEII
by Robert Harris

FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION:

1. What would you say this book is really about?

Responses from our Readers

2. Do you think Harris succeeded in making parallels to America in this book? Do you see any instances of a point being proved about American Society, if so what are they?

"No, Harris did not for me succeed in making parallels to America, if that was what he was trying to do---" FAKI (LaVerne)

3."Ampliatus teeters on the brink of taking over the novel.." Robert Harris
Which character do you think is the most strongly and completely written? Which character, for YOU is most in danger of taking over or dominating the plot? Who IS the protagonist of this novel?

"I rather think the volcano (nature) is. It drives the story from beginning to end, with man-human beings the whipped antagonist--" Malryn

"I think Attilius retains first place as the prime mover of the plot... For me, Pliny is far and away the most interesting character: as a scientist, as an author, an administrator, and finally as a friend to Rectina (although perhaps the unmatched library was as important as she was)-" Mippy

I agree... that Vesuvius is really the main character and dominates; should Vesuvius have been the title?

Robert Harris' strengths appear to be plot/setting/time, and above all telling a good story. Characterization does not appear to be his strong point in this novel..."FAKI (LaVerne)

4. Do you think America is going the way of the Ancient Romans? Why or why not?

5. Page 272: Men mistook measurement for understanding. And they always had to put themselves at the center of everything. That was their greatest conceit.

What do you think is the greatest conceit of man?

6.The earth is becoming warmer—it must be our fault! The mountain is destroying us—we have not propitiated the gods! It rains too much, it rains too little—a comfort to think that these things are somehow connected to our behavior, that if only we lived a little better, a little more frugally, our virtue would be rewarded…

What is ironic about this statement?
--Is it deliberate irony?

7. We tend to associate sacrifices, or propitiation of the gods with ancient cultures. In 2004, do you think any person believes if he tries to live a better life he will be rewarded?

Are there people who still associate disasters with corrupt societies? Or as the will of God?

But here was nature, sweeping toward him—unknowable, all-conquering, indifferent—and he saw in her fires the futility of human pretensions.

8. Do you agree with Harris and his view of man's place in nature here? Who do you think had a better view of man's place in nature, the Ancients or those living in 2004?

What constitutes, in your view, "human pretension?"

Do you think all human efforts are futile?
What sort of philosophy is Harris espousing here and did he prove his point by placing the action during the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD?

9. The last sentence in the book is "But this particular story was generally considered far-fetched and was dismissed as a superstition by all sensible people."

Why did Harris end the book with this sentence, what does it mean?

10. If you have read any of Colleen McCullough's books on Rome or any other fictional accounts, what is the difference in her books and Harris's?

11. Can you think of any other book you have ever read which follows the plot outlines in Post 204? Are they recently written books or older ones?

12. What would you call this genre of books and does the reader always suffer in terms of literary competence, for instance: one of the reviewers of Crichton's Timeline asks, " Ah, well, who needs real characters? The plot is fun and watching medieval scholars discover what it takes to wield medieval broadswords is quite something."

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

13. Can you identify this item from Pompeii?

14. Can you spot the error in grammar on page 5?

15. If you could go back to any place and time to VISIT, where would you go? --(Rebecca)

Does having read this book make you more or less inclined to visit the Romans?

16. If there are 4 basic elements in all stories, (the milieu, idea, character or event factor), then WHAT are the elements that make a really good book and does Harris have them in this one? Let's list them by positive and negative characteristics and see. --Scrawler

17. What are some of the themes Harris weaves throughout the book?

the futility of man against nature

religion is powerless

18. Are there aspects of the carefully separated public/private lives we see in Pompeii in America? Or in one's community? -- Rebecca

19. Why do people read novels, anyway? ---Rebecca

Fabulous University of Texas site on Pompeii || Fantastic BBC site on Pliny and Pompeii, don't miss the figures in the Pompeii sidebar || Pliny the Younger's Actual Letter to Tacitus Describing the Eruption and the Death of His Uncle, from Amherst || More Links

Read More About It:

Pompeii, by Salvatore Nappo
Guide to the Aqueducts of Ancient Rome by Pater Aicher
The Gardens of Pompeii, Herculaneum and the Villas Destroyed by Vesuvius, 2 vols, by Jashemski, Wilhelmina.

Discussion Leader: ginny

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Welcome!

Morituri Te Salutamus!

("We who are about to die salute you!")

In 79 AD, on August 24, an horrific cataclysmic event shook the town of Pompeii, near the bay of Naples. The volcano Vesuvius erupted, and the town was shrouded in a 6 metre layer of volcanic debris, never to recover.

What do YOU think of when you think of Pompeii?

Vesuvius?

A movie?

Tromp d'oeil?

Pompeian red?

Pliny the Elder?

Bet you didn't think of aqueducts, but in this blockbuster best seller, Robert Harris makes the ancient world come alive, in what people have described as the "perfect beach read."

The discovery of Pompeii opened a window on the ancient world and Harris, in this wonderful fictional account, takes us THERE, like the old television show, You Are There, and you'll never forget what you learn.

Plan to join us July 1, for the beach read of the year, we'll make a sandbox right here, bring your shovel for some excavations and sit back and enjoy what you uncover.

Hope to see you then, sign in now so we can get up a quorum?

Vale!

ginny

Count me in on this discussion.

Scrawler!!

Welcome, Welcome! This is supposed to be a super book, I'm quite excited about it and to see you here, welcome!

ginny

Our newest contest!!

What is this?

We're having a contest, can you guess what this is?

The first person to guess what this IS wins bragging rights for the entire year AND... AND....!!!!!????!!!! a surprise from Pompeii ITSELF when the discussion begins!!! hahahaa, Now what more could you ASK?

So...what's YOUR guess?

OK, I'm game. This is an apothecary's container benchlike thingie. Various medicines, plants, roots, tinctures of this and that were once in the round holes.

Either that, or it is a stove.

Ooo good guess, our Maryal, we'll announce the winner once everybody's had a go (read that I no longer remember WHAT it is haahahah, I snapped it on the way out of Pompeii the last time, and have been wondering ever since so this will enlighten ALL of us) hahahaha I think it's something else, but "the strong are saying nothing till they see!" haahaha

Thank you for that guess! Hope you will join us in July!

If it were deeper, I would suggest a "family sized" bathroom>

hahaha thanks, mj, no as you say, the depth is not quite right! I know that one's not, because.....I do have a photo of THOSE would you believe? They used a canal in the front with running water and dipped sponges on sticks into it, hang on...

* You don't see THAT everywhere, now do you? hahahahaa

I almost want to say that it some kind of draniage system, but that doesn't seem right. I think I'm going to take a wild guess and say it is part of a tomb where they put the jars of oils etc in the tomb.

GINNY, the first picture is a stove. The second is a latrine.

Mal

Thank you Scrawler and Malryn, the most frighting thing this morning is that I got up reazling I truly DON'T know what the first one is (you're right Malryn on the second photo) and may not until July. hahahaaha I am not even wanting to say who seems closer, hahaahaha so all guesses are welcomed because I SURE don't know which is right!

Some contest, hah?

Hope some of you will be interested in reading the book in July, I know that's a long time off but I'm going to be gone a good bit in the meantime so needed to get it up now.

Is it a stove or oven? Or something to do with a bath? Roman baths are different. I saw a show on t.v. one day and this could be what they are.

Truly as I have already mentioned I have returned from the week in NC and the beach wedding ..and have no voice..and I mean no voice. Will see the doctor later today and see if this needs anything but time , lemon and honey and no talking !

As you know I have great memories and dozens of slides of Pompei..it was the most fascinating place to me..since it was a very advanced culture with plumbing, medical instruments still in use today ...and When I was there I think only about 45% had been uncovered. So you would have seen a great deal more than in your visit Ginny.

I will order this book today and be here

I have no idea what the first thing is but looks like some sort of measuring device or bowls. This book was going to be a must read for me...so will look forward to the discussion.. anna

A wild guess. The first photo is about a form of standardization of size, such as preparing bundles of wheat (or something else) for market.

Betty

Thank you Scrawler, bluebird 24, Anna, and Betty, your guess is as good as mine hahahah this will be lots of fun, I will HAVE to learn something as I don't have a clue (and I TOOK the photo ! hahahah) So on July 1, all will be revealed, so guess away, nobody can say it's not XXX (except it's not a latrine) because we don't know what it is!

Anna, I hope you get your voice back and welcome to the discussion, I want to see all your slides!!

ginny

I have the book and will try to join the discussion.

I tried to find my pictures of Pompei, but couldn’t. I think that the picture is of an outside kitchen or cafe, and those are wok like cooking containers.

Sandy

Salve, Sandy! (Welcome!) ahahahah could not pass up the "Salve Sandy" thing with the s's, I think this time I am just going to take my digital chips directly to the photo store, they make 2 copies and then put them on a CD for an extra $5, and I really think it's worth it. Computers crash and I don't have all of my photos saved on CD it's a "tomorrow" thing with me, so that way I have them to look at and to show here, I hope you can find yours, they were better than mine if I recall.

I just found out you can go to the top of Vesuvius, it's a PARK for Pete's sake but until recently (until the recent eruption) you needed a personal guide (!!??) to go to the crater. Apparently Sparatacus HID in that crater, I understand it's smoking, so I doubt he'd hide there now, am trying to stifle the urge to ride up there hahaahahah have all my life (like Pliny the Elder) wanted to go see a volcano, and...well I don't know if we'll find out what happened to HIM when Vesuvius erupted, burying Pompeii, but I admire his spirit!

That's a long way of saying welcome!

Gosh this is a good book, am I the only one reading it? I know it's early days yet but I want to try out the method described in the book by which the ancients used to find water, or a spring. I wonder if it's true, I have never heard this one before, but it makes sense.

I've heard about divining rods and...well there are a lot of old wives tales about how to find ground water, it might be fun to hear some of them.

I'm rereading now the Aicher book on aqueducts and he's talking about how they regulated the water pressure when it came into the city and where all it went, to the baths and the public fountains and certain homes, and how they did not have "taps" or faucets as we know them except at the end of the line, but they controlled the pressure by various means including a gradient of 2 inches to every...I think it's 200 feet, for the entire length of the aqueduct: incredible, there were 500 MILES of aqueducts!!

This is marvelous, I love the way it starts out, you are RIGHT there with the men before sunrise. (I can see right now I will be having to look some stuff up tho), great summer book if you're looking for one!

I just got back from a long trip to CA--house hunting. Had no time to get online and see what was going on at SN. I have "Pompeii" and am looking forward to starting it, but I'm glad it's scheduled for July since I don't know how much time I'll have for reading between now and then.

It's nice to be back here and read all your interesting posts. I love the way Ginny turns everything into a contest, even when she has lost track of the solution.

Horselover!! haahah Welcome back!

You said a very Zen like thing there in your post but I wouldn't call attention to it for the world, hahahaa good on you, (isn't it wonderful that no matter where you go SeniorNet Books is THERE? Love it!) So you're moving but you'll be HERE in July, that's all we need!

welcome!

Ginny, I've seen other pictures of Pompeii that look similar to your contest photo, and which are described as bars or street fountains. Here is one:
http://wings.buffalo.edu/AandL/Maecenas/italy_except_rome_and_sicily/pompeii/ac880826.html

What do you think?

Horselover, thank you for that fabulous photo,and the site, too! Wow, yes that's a very famous thermopolium or tavern, on the street called Via dell'Abbondanza.

I am reading a new book on Pompeii (I've had it for years but just started it) and they say that thing was one of the first to be excavated and discovered, just IMAGINE the excitement. They even say who did it, and that they tried valiantly to preserve the upper stories of the houses, I can't imagine.

This is a wonderful book and it talks about the aqueduct, the Aqua Augusta, that I had no idea even existed (don't you find the older you get the less you know tho you think you know EVERYTHING?) hahahaha THIS will be so fun.

Apparently somebody named Spinazolla first found this tavern in 1911-1923. Apparently those are places for the hot food and the cold, (they would be in terra cotta insterts in the table) sort of like a buffet today, and there would be olive oil as well, I've got some reconstructions, BUT note that the sizes are different in the two photographs, of the holes and there's no marble tiling on the challenge photo (I need to put that in the heading).

All I know about the Challenge Photo is that you encounter it in Pompeii on your way out of the ruins? On the right? (Depending on which exit you use? hahahaha)

And it's as you go along and they begin to have the casts of the actual people, and displays. This display is disturbing to some and they look away and the crowd hurries past so I had to stop and buck the crowd when I saw this and go BACK and snap a photo, I had a FIT when I saw it, and it IS labelled? It's obviously measurement of some kind, and smaller than, that is the wells are smaller then they appear here?

But unfortunately I have no earthly idea now what it IS. (One wonders why one travels when one seems not to know what one saw?) hahaha so will have to try to find it...what...it's only 43 acres, right? hahahahaa

(You know I believe I see the word mensuras on the front of that table? I am not good at inscriptions and can not make a lot of it out, but mensura means "a measuring," and sometimes means, according to Cassells, "a measure, standard, that by which anything is measured." We may be getting closer and Maryal may be right!

Oh and wait! This is exciting, is this another clue? When it's blown up on the screen and you use a magnifying glass I can see ...or can I? Clodius Flaccus? Maybe we can look him up and see what it IS!! What fun, our own excavations!

Anybody else got a guess for our Challenge Photo? Before we solve the mystery?

Laid up for three days and in pain for four I had nothing to do...moving was so painful and I needed something to keep my mind busy...So I read Pompeii...the aquaducts fascinated me when we were in Italy and all of Pompeii was amazing to me. This book was very detailed even if it was fiction and it helped pass the time for me.

I remember those plaster casts of people who had died in the eruption..I am sure they had the one with the dog trying to get to its tail. All of the medical equipment was interesting and astounding to see how advanced this place was...I loved the atriums, the murals on the dining walls for the couches and the whole place. I would love to return and see how much more has been excavated...and what book are you reading Ginny ...I would love to read an account of the excavation...to me the best thing about reaching an advanced age is I now have time to pursue all the interests I have had over the years..being a daughter, wife , mother is a full time job...I miss all the people who used to be part of my life but I know they would be pleased to see I am not just sitting around..but continuing to live and learn....anna

Ginny, Here's another similar photo that is labelled "a fast food stand for beverages and bread."

http://www.kent.k12.wa.us/staff/dbishop/rome/PompTown.html

Apparently these types of street bars could serve a multitude of purposes.

Anna and Horselover! So sorry, something is wrong with my browser and NO new posts were shown, bummer!

Wow, Anna, you're already through! I already have a million questions myself, this will be so fun, and I would like to know of a good book on the excavations, too, if you find one, just hearing about the plaster casts ought to be fascinating. You asked what I'm reading, I'm reading Pompeii A Guide to the Ancient City by Salvatore Nappo, it's almost a coffee table size book not a "guide," at all, but it's really one of the best books on Pompeii I've ever seen, the illustrations are out of this world, it's arranged in sections of the city with maps to the identified houses, and there are even reconstructions, it's incredible, the best I've seen, and explains EVERYTHING in the tiniest detail.

The best book on aqueducts I've also ever seen is a paperback called Guide to the Aqueducts of Ancient Rome by Peter J. Aicher, and it, too, is not a guide but a very detailed description of the 11 Aqueducts of Rome with ALL KINDS of information, charts, drawings, hydraulics and stuff, it's about as intense on the subject of aqueducts as you can get!

Horselover, another wonderful photo, I love that site, thank you, we'll need to put that url in the heading here, it's a fabulous site!

Speaking of tabernas, I really enjoyed seeing the bakeries when I was in Pompeii (I seem to remember they had the actual loaves of bread, too), the big ovens, it was fascinating, I like to make bread and quite frankly I wish I had a nice clay oven like they did, I bet those loaves were out of this world!

Here's a reconstruction of what those thermopoliums or stores selling hot and cold buffet items, that Horselover has been putting in might have looked like, looks inviting, doesn't it?

Kinda makes you want to step right in and see what's cooking!

Well, now you've opened Pandora's box. I bought Pompeii and started reading it today. After a while I found an old book on my daughter's book shelf by Bulwer Lytton called the Last Days of Pompeii . I also found a Time-Life book called Imperial Rome which i found fascinating.

Pompeii is an interesting read as Harris paints a unique portrait of this thriving town and its expanding businesses, along with the urban aristocrats right to the fore-front for our attention.

Ginny mentioned the ovens and this book talks about when Pompeii was excavated, actual charred loaves of bread were found, almost 1800 years old preserved in the volcanic ash. I love the stories of how the rich indulged themselves in both public and private. When I asked for this book at Borders the salesgirl led me right to it, proclaiming its worth and telling me that she had just finished reading it. I told her that I recently had watched the Last Days of Pompeii of TV and she told me that was junk, I quote "oh no, that was much too soppy! This read is much better, you'll love it." So love it, I shall.

These monumental aqueducts that linked Rome with springs as far as 30 miles away are amazing in engineering features. the water descended from a higher level to a lower one and flowed thru a conrete channel at the top of the aqueduct. One writer, Vitruvius, recommened a fall of six inches to every 100 feet of aqueduct. Arches were used to cross steep valleys. Tunnels, burrowed thru hills too difficult to skirt, were equipped with shafts for inspection and cleaning. The inverted siphon, sometimed usen when the valley were steep, was based on the principle that "water seeks it own level." This siphon effect forced water to flow uphill . Reading how these aquaducts were available to the masses really amazed me.

I have started reading "Pompeii" and am already drawn into the story of these characters who do not realize the disaster that lies ahead of them. It is also fascinating to read about the critical importance of water to this part of the ancient world, which had no potable water of its own. It's like California today which has a large population and very little fresh water that is not imported from elsewhere.

The Importance Of Water

"Water can be without the company of humans but
we as humans can only be without water for a few days."

This quotation shows the whole truth about the importance and meaning of Water as the main source of nourishment. Its value cannot be overestimated. It is essential for all life on this planet.

Without water life on earth would not exist. Water is a major component of cells, typically forming between 70 and 95% of the mass of the cell. This means that we are made from approximately 80% water by mass and some soft bodied creatures such as jellyfish are made of up to 96% water. Water also provides an environment for organisms to live in, 75% of the earth is covered in water.

The human body consists of about 75% Water and the brain about 85%. Each cell in the body depends upon Water in order to function. Numerous disorders are caused by insufficient and unhealthy Water. In order to maintain the various bodily functions, we need to drink up to 2-3 litres of Water each day. We need our daily supply of Water since we cannot maintain reserves of it in our body as we can with food. We would die within three to seven days without Water.

For thousands of years, humanity has been aware of the importance of Water. In Rome, a couple of thousand years ago, it was considered to be one of the biggest crimes to pollute the Water.

In our civilization, we as individuals use Water as if we had limitless amounts of it. In Canada, it might seem to be true for the time being, but in Europe and other densely populated areas of our planet like California, drinking Water has become a scarcity for which we pay dearly. Only 2-3% of the planet's Water is fresh Water. The majority of this tiny fraction exists as ice at the planet's poles or is inaccessible for other reasons. Only 0.2% of the planet's Water is potable.

Isn't it fun to have these facts pop up and say "howdy" as you read along. You're so right in noting that these people had no earthly idea of the magnitude of disaster that was about to befall them. I finihsed my book and my daughter is reading it at this time.

Ginny, I have gotten to the point in the book where the question posed by your photograph seems to be answered. Without giving anything about the story away, in the Chapter called "Hora Septa," Attilius visits a brothel which has a bar described as a "cheap place, little more than a rough stone counter with holes cut into it for the jars of wine. There was no room to sit." Doesn't this seem to describe your photo?

Ginny's away drinking wine with the Italians horselover. she'll be back in a few more days, straight from Italy.

hahaah Thank you Andrea the Wanderer and Horselover, thank you for your guess!! Does anybody else have a guess? We'll take all guesses up until June 30 and then we'll announce the winner on July 1, and the winner will win a great prize.

Yes I guess I'm back, hahahaha I left my brain somewhere in Europe but picked up a major throat thing, don't know what it is, but had THE most wonderful time.

I did NOT get to Pompeii, so you all will have to bring out all of your resources and urls so we can enjoy and learn, I DID go to Ostia which is mentioned in the book and of course have those old photos of Pompeii, now hidden in the barn, from my last trip.

Isn't this an interesting book? I have so many questions!!! I am really enjoying it, in fact I read half of it again yesterday, I think I would like to take a week in Naples and see those areas, they are VERY hard to get to.

For instance, to get to Pompeii from Rome, you first take a train to Naples? And it takes 2 hours. You get off at the station but you can't get to Pompeii from there, you have to go to the Circumvesuvio train lines which your Eurail pass is not good on and take that train. I think it takes 45 minutes. You then get off, being careful to get the Pompeii Scavi stop or you will go to Sorrento.

Then you get a BUS (somehow?) to go to the ruins?

OK I was all primed to do that but after my half day trip just to get to Ostia (THAT is a story in itself) and then alighting at the station finally from the…let's see third train, I found….? I found?? NADA! Not ONE sign? Nothing, no map? Nothing.

Now I had been to Ostia twice before. I know it's huge and I know it's considered a better ruin than Pompeii (as is Herculaneum) but from the photos in the book on Pompeii I'm reading I can't imagine why, ANYWAY, what are you going to do? Nobody to ask, my Italian is not good, so I followed the passengers (good thing they weren't all murderers) for a LONG looong hot climb up and over the passenger bridge over the railroads (100 something steps up and 100 something down) and then walked a couple of miles to the outskirts of the ruin, many many acres.

You may have seen on the news of the heat wave in Italy at that time, and all I can say is BOY was it HOT.

But I have some photos for you from there which illustrate some of the things they talk about in the book, and…I missed the water organ?

They have, in Tivoli (of course I could NOT go on a packaged tour, "I might not have enough time") hahahaha as it WAS I spent my time in the subways and train stations and wandering down dusty boiling hot empty spooky city of the dead, (it was really neat).

But anyway, at the Villa' d'Este, they have repaired the famous "water organ," and our author Harris refers to one continually, and they now, in the Villa D'Este, have concerts on it several times a day. Of course I did not see it, do you all have any idea what on earth a water organ is?

I would also have liked to go to Herculaneum? Have any of you been there? I hear that last eruption almost buried it again. I would like to go to Vesuvius and that, too, was in my plans, till I read carefully what's involved.

They won't let you go up without a guide (it's as hard to get to as Pompeii is) and the guides stand around when you finally get there (again by vague bus) waiting for you to hire one. That did not sound like a plan, for a woman alone (I was by myself at that point) to me, but I think in future I'll spend more time in the area, there's an arch I want to see, too, on the west. We all need to go together, so when the guide pushes one of us IN because he did not get a big enough tip, the others can save him/ her? Hahahaha

Ok I am reading two other books for this discussion and I recommend them BOTH to you, they are out of this world. I've mentioned them before but want to put them in the heading.

The first is Pompeii by Salvatore Nappo, which Harris DOES recommend if you check his sources in the back, and it is wonderful. What I'm doing with it, is opening it at random and reading (it's a large lavish thing) all about that subject (you'd never get thru it otherwise) and yesterday it opened to the Brothels which of course I never heard of before and then to an incredible villa, so I have photos from that book for you, it's obvious Harris is describing some of the photos in it.

Then I'm reading Guide to the Aqueducts of Ancient Rome by Peter Aicher, and here you can find out what Harris leaves out. Harris says there were 6 aqueducts in Rome? There were 11. 2 of those were built after the 79 AD but the others are there and are referred to many times, many diagrams and great stuff, you will emerge an Aqueduct Expert! (more on THAT later, too)

SO as we read and you find something particularly interesting and valuable, please don't hesitate to share it with us, we'll all learn something.

I can't wait to start, we'll divide the book in quarters and look at a quarter a week, I had a really ELECTRIC experience in Rome and brought you a photo, you'll gasp!! (about aqueducts) hahahaa

Join us in this fun tale in which you learn a lot while enjoying the suspense, more on that later.

Glad you're back, Ginny. I really missed your enthusiasm!!!

Well bless your heart, I'm glad to see you, too!

I've never read an "historical novel" before, we'll have much to say on this one!

Well I finished the book yesterday (could not put it down) and I think this particular book deserves a slightly different approach than the one we usually take, and so I would like to structure this discussion a bit differently?

Instead of looking at small parts of the book each week, I would like to take the book as a whole from the beginning, starting on July 1.

So draw your chair up into the circle, and get your lemonade, and get ready to THINK! hahahaa I have a lot of questions for you, and am looking foward to hearing YOUR questions and thoughts.

Everyone is welcome!

I agree Ginny. It will be fun and appropriate to consider this novel as a "whole". I'm going to begin to reread/scan this one tonight.

Lucky I got my book yesterday. I'm buried in Jane Austen at the minute but will try to get Pompaii read by the first. (from 18th century drawing rooms to erupting volcanos -- what a change. I feel as if my life is more like the volcano than the drawing room right now. LOL)

I read something interesting while researching this book and that was that the people chose to settle near Vesuvius and around Mt. Etna in Sicily because of the volcanic ash. The ash provided rich soil to enhance the grapes that they made their wine out of. WHY does ash help that particular soil? Is it the base? Lowering of the Ph?

I believe I'd have to have me an awful lot of wine to keep me calm enough to live near, much less on, an active volcano. I don't care HOW many quiet years there would be in between eruptions I wouldn't be comfortable there awaiting her spewing.

Alf - I think it is the nitrogen in the ash. Where I live here in Alaska we have had ash from a volcano (1986) desposited all over the ground, etc. The following summer the plants were incredible.

Kathy

Thanks, Andrea and Joan K, I think you'll enjoy it, Joan, especially towards the end, I got quite caught up in the end of it, found myself actually not breathing there for a bit (happily I began again) hahaahah.

My goodness, Andrea, you do come up with the MOST interesting things, and it looks like Kathy is dead right! (WELCOME, Kathy!!)

Here, apparently, is the skinny, the first site, Volcanology, is the most informative:

Why do people live on dangerous volcanoes? The main reason is the rich volcanic soil. People are willing to take high-risk gambles for the most basic things of life -- especially food.

Close to an erupting volcano the short-term destruction by pyroclastic flows, heavy falls of ash, and lava flows can be complete, the extent of the damage depending upon the eruption magnitude. Crops, forests, orchards, and animals grazing or browsing on the volcano's slopes or surrounding lowland can be leveled or buried. But that is the short-term effect. In the long run, volcanic deposits can develop into some of the richest agricultural lands on earth.

One example of the effect of volcanoes on agricultural lands is in Italy. Except for the volcanic region around Naples, farming in southern Italy is exceedingly difficult because limestone forms the basement rock and the soil is generally quite poor. But the region around Naples, which includes Mount Vesuvius, is very rich mainly because of two large eruptions 35,000 and 12000 years ago that left the region blanketed with very thick deposits of tephra which has since weathered to rich soils. Part of this area includes Mount Vesuvius. The region has been intensively cultivated since before the birth of Christ. The land is planted with vines, vegetables, or flowers. Every square foot of this rich soil is used. For example, even a small vineyard will have, in addition to grapes and spring beans on the trellises, fava beans, cauliflower and onions between the trellis rows, and the vineyard margin rimmed with orange and lemon trees, herbs, and flowers. It also is a huge tomato growing region.

The verdant splendor and fertility of many farmlands of the North Island of New Zealand are on volcanic soils of different ages. Volcanic loams have developed on older (4,000 and 40,000 years old) volcanic ash deposits of the Waikato and Bay of Plenty regions. Combined with ample rainfall, warm summers, and mild winters, these regions produce abundant crops, including the kiwifruit found around the world in modern recipes. The altered volcanic ashes are well-drained, yet hold water for plants, and are easily tilled. Deep volcanic loams are particularly good for pasture growth (there is a large New Zealand dairy industry), horticulture, and maize.

Life-forms on the Earth's surface exist primarily by consent of nature's partnership -- heat from the sun, and nutrients from rocks that have been decomposed and recombined into soluble molecules by chemical reactions with moisture and gases such as carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. The process is known as "chemical weathering." Chemical interactions of the atmosphere with rock release key elements from rock-forming minerals which are then accessible to growing things. Volcanic rocks make some of the best soils on earth because they not only have a wide variety of common elements the rock and are readily chemically separated into elemental components.

After the Mount St. Helens eruption in 1980, people who were living downwind from the eruption were concerned that the ash that fell would be detrimental to the agricultural farmlands of eastern Washington. This concern was countered by a group of knowledgeble earth scientists. Volcanic ash can be considered as a time-release capsule, rich in nutrients.

Further Reading

Fisher, R.V., Heiken, G., and Hulen, J.B., 1997, Volcanoes; Crucibles of Change. Princeton, Princeton University Press.

Molloy, L., 1993. Soils in the New Zealand Landscape-The Living Mantle. New Zealand Society of Soil Science, Canterbury.

Sheets, P. D. and Grayson, D. K. (editors), 1979. Volcanic Activity and Human Ecology. New York, Academic Press. Copyright (C) 1997, by Richard V. Fisher. All rights reserved.

For Pete’s sake, who knew? Hahaha

Here's an interesting one from Rudd Vineyard and Winery and one from Diamond Creek Vineyard , both of which talk about volcanic ash.

Thank you for that interesting query!

I may have told some of you that were in "The Story of Civilization" and if I'm repeating myself I appologize. I happened to be visiting Portland, Oregon when Mt. St. Helen's blew its top. We were covered in ash - cars, people etc. Now I'm not one to get excited about disasters - I was born and raised in Northern California and have been through my share of earthquakes - but volanco's - that's another story! The whole time I was up here I drove around with my light's on - day and night. I remember the air was very still and we wore masks - the kind you see in a hospital. The ground rumbled all the time [ this didn't bother me] as much as the sounds of "thunder claps". I also noticed the absent of animals and birds. Though several wild animals came down out of the hills. Needless to say I was very glad to get aboard a plane and go home to California - to my earthquakes. Just as I got on the plane - I could hear church bells ringing all over the city and someone said that was the all clear signal. And now I live in Oregon - so go figure!

It is interesting that some of Nature's worst disasters are also the source of her blessings. The volcanic eruptions and the floods along river basins create wonderful fertile soil. And even deadly earthquakes have been the means of creation of earth's great mountain ranges.

I like your idea of discussing the book as a whole, especially since the action takes place over such a compact time frame. In Borders, "Pompeii" was classified as a mystery/thriller. However, there really isn't too much mystery for the reader about what is going to happen. I'd say it was more of a historical romance. Several of the characters are pretty well drawn and you do care about them, especially Pliny and Attillius. More about that next week.

Everybody save their ash(es.) ahahahaha

I crack myself up. I'm saving my ash for Ginny's vineyard. ahahahh

Off to the library with the 3 little ones. I shall return.

You are so funny....when I took a trip west by train and it went very slow through the Rockies I thought if my husband was not buried at Arlington and my children wouldnt mind I would like my ashes sprinkled in that place. The idea of them blowing in the wind forever appealed to me.

When you said yours were going to Ginny's vineyard I am reminded of a newspaper article about an old church in Williamsburg ..they wrote they have a special area where flowers are planted and people write in their wills that their ashes would be distributed there...

Which to me is an ultimate act of faith...anna

Here is a picture glossary of volcano terms from US Geological survey. Warning: some of them are truly scary.

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Products/Pglossary/pglossary.html

Wow, Joan, I love that thing, love the photos, thank you so much, I will put it in the heading, some of it looks like what Pliny described, incredible.

Scrawler!! You lucky thing, I have an ash tray from Mouint St. Helens, very pretty, imagine experiencing one, you must tell all as we get into it, we’ll want to hear more about it to compare with what Harris wrote.

Andrea, you are a hoot, Andrea;s Ashes in the Vineyard, sounds like a soap opera hahahaa. Haaha

Annafair, what a charming story, I have never heard it, why do you think of spreading ashes as an ultimate act of faith?

Horselover, I agree, I think as a whole is the way to go, volcanoes themselvesare romantic, or so I thought before reading this book, but more on that later on!

Everybody pull up a beach chair, I want to read more in that url that Joan has brought.

Ashes to ashes....

Still, it's nice to have a place where you can go to feel close to your loved one. In many cultures, the cemetery is a pleasant, happy place where the spirits of your ancestors reside.

I dont know Ginny I know it took me a long time to accept cremation ..it seems so much more permanent than a full body burial..but decided if God could use dust to create man He could use ashes to give me a new body...and Yes it is nice to visit a grave yard ..but I am not one to go often..The people there are not there and the memories are what I hold daar ..The feeling I just have to think of them.. talk to them wherever I am makes them near.

I once wrote a poem about not bringing me flowers when I am dead....and certainly not plastic or silk ones...but pick a rose or a dandelion , and think of me...and I wiil know ...

just thinking ..and I have my book at the ready ..read it before but will be glad to share thoughts with other readers...anna

Hi Ginny, I'd like to take part in this discussion of Pompeii. I loved the book and read it a few months ago with a local library reading group.I'm trying to find the notes I took-they're somewhere.

Salve, Dorothy!

I'd love to hear the notes your face to face book group at the library did on Pompeii!!!

This will be so fun, WELCOME!!

Thank you, Anna, I appreciate those thoughts, and Horselover, interesting on cemeteries, actually. I can see this will be a wide ranging discussion, and why not? We can talk about anything we choose.

In a way, since 43 acres of Pompeii have been set aside never to be excavated, Pompeii itself is a graveyard, depending on how you look at it?

I will admit to a fascination for the old historiic cemeteries, Highgate in London and Pere LaChaise in Paris.

I want to really see what you think about some of the issues this brings up, can't wait for July 1, is that this THURSDAY? YIKES!!

I believe that the photo shows standards for measuring out amounts of merchandise (such as grain), and thus, was probably located in the marketplace adjacent to the Forum.

My visits to Pompeii made me so interested in the city and its inhabitants that I wrote my own novel about it! (Nowhere near as famous or successful as the Harris novel, needless to say).

Rebecca East

Well for heaven's sake, Welcome, Rebecca!!
Another Pompeii author, tell us about your book! Thank you for that guess, are you planning to discuss Pompeii with us?

Welcome!

Dear Ginny, thank you for welcoming me; I would love to participate in the discussion of Pompeii - I read it a few months ago and will reread it to refresh my memory.

My own novel is "A. D. 62: Pompeii", and it is a fantasy about a modern woman who goes back in time to experience household life in Pompeii. Like Harris, I tried to show a side of Roman life that isn't usually depicted in fiction (the lives of everyday people). I have a website www.rebecca-east.com with more information about the book (which is available on Amazon, by the way). The website also has links to some interesting sites about Pompeii and ancient Rome.

I look forward to an interesting discussion!

Here is that link.

http://rebecca-east.com/

Thank you, Rebecca. I'll be busy checking out those sites for some time.

Wonderful, Rebecca and thank you Joan, this is very fun. I look forward to welcoming all of you tomorrow, we do have a winner in our contest and some (I dearly hope) thought provoking questions or jumping off points for you to let fly with your thoughts.

See you tomorrow, am struggling with the volcano image hahahaaha tune in tomorrow and see who won! hahahaa (If I appear a little ashen in the morning you may assume the volcano has...(ow ow ow) chalked...(ow ow ow) up another one? hahahaha

And the winner is…..TA DA!!

I am very impressed, in reading all the guesses, how smart you all are! SEVERAL of you came VERY close. Our table, it turns out here, is actually quite a famous one. It's mentioned in the Latin 101 text and in the Nappo book, which translates the inscription across the front of it.

Quoting from Nappo:

The Mensa Ponderaria, where weights and measures were checked, was in a niche in the boundary wall between the Temple of Apollo and the Forum. Intentionally located near the cereal and dried-pulse market, it consists of a horizontal limestone bench containing nine circular cavities of different capacities with a hole in the bottom, through which the measured product ran out. A smaller table with three cavities rested on it, so that 12 different quantities could be measured.

The table was installed in the Samnite era (late second century BC) so the measures were Oscan, as demonstrated by ten names inscribed in the cavities.

With Romanization, the Oscan measurements had to be adapted to the Roman ones, as proved by this epigraph carved into the face of the marble counter:

A(ulus) Clodius A(uli) f(ilius)
Flaccus N(umerius) Arcaeus N(umeri) f (ilius) Arellian (us) Caledus d(uo) v (iri) i (ure) d (icundo) mensuras exaequandas ex dec(urionum) decr(eto)

(Judges and duumviri Aulus Clodius Flaccus, son of Aulus, and Numerius Arcaeus Arellianus Caledus, son of Numerius, [had the task] of equalizing the measurements, as resolved by the decurions.)

We had several excellent guesses near the mark naming this table of measurements and so the prize will go to the one who guessed a table of measures first and that is Annafair! Congratulations, Anna!!

Your prize, a beautiful book on Pompeii all the way from Italy (but in English) will be sent to you immediagely! Hope you enjoy it, and thank all of you for playing the game!

(The inscription above, by the way, is an example of the Latinists's Migraine: the Epigraph hahaaha but more on that later on.).

Well that was certainly exciting and a good way to get our discussion off with a bang, so pull up a chair, (or recline here in our triclinium, how on earth anybody ever ATE a mouthful lying down is amazing to me hahahaa--talk about acid reflux!) pass the lemonade and cookies, (I'll skip the beaks) and let's discuss!!

First off, I'll be putting up some points for your consideration in the heading? I'm going to put up five topics just today for your consideration, and will add more as we progress, or as you think of one you'd like mentioned.

This is not a test, please do not answer every question, please pick one that interests YOU ?

These points are just to spark your own thoughts, our intent is a conversation here, so please do speak to the others and react to what they have said.

There are no right or wrong answers here, and your opinion is as valid as the next persons, and we would like to hear it!

1. What would you say this book is really about?

2. Why write a book about Pompeii, we all know what happened (or do we?)

Why write a book about an aqueduct that came nowhere near the town of Pompeii, which was reached only by a spur? Why focus on aqueducts when speaking of Pompeii? Do you think it was effective?

3. What did you know about Pompeii before reading this book? Did anything surprise you, and if so, what? And why?

4. Why do you think the author introduced the eels episode and what did the continuing of that thread or metaphor throughout the whole story signify?

5. The book has been called a mystery, how many different mysteries in the book can you mention? Were they all solved?

Questions, lots of questions, maybe not worded as well as I'd like, hope you can get the drift, anyway.

Let's hear from you!

I remember the first time i visited Pompeii many years ago; it was a Monday that we arrived outside the ruins to find the site firmly closed (as Museums and Galleries all over Europe do on Mondays). Since we only had one day to spend in Pompeii my frustration and dissappointment was such that tears rolled down my face and great sobs I could not control. My husband was taken by surprise as I am not a person to cry that easily, certainly not with sobs and all! Anyhow, thanks to 'my tears' he re-arranged his commitments and meetings. Thus we were able to return the next day; I was in awe by its beauty. I felt I was in a most sacret resting burial place… I have been back since to see new places being excavated and allowed to be seen by us the masses. However my last trip to Pompeii was about ten years ago. It is hard to believe that we have done so much damage, in such little time, to something nature had protected for nearly two millennium. Oh, how I wish governments and archeologist world wide would unite effords and monies to save Pompeii!

Amparo

Welcome, Amparo! Thank you for that great post! You have raised several very important points in it and I want, when I come in next, to address them, WELCOME!!

Let me add one question to the heading and that is, if any of you have ever been to Pompeii, what were your impressions of the site? What do you remember most about the experience?

It's interesting that many people have different reactions, and one of the reasons this book was so useful to me was it changed mine, but more later!!

Good morning! I hope there'll be space for people like me who have never been to Pompeii. I've been fascinated with it for a long time, especially since discussing it in The Story of Civilization discussion. I have the book, and will be following along.

Mal

These are great questions!

The first time I visited Pompeii, I didn’t know much about its history. It was sad to see the plaster casts of the bodies of those who didn’t escape in time; the positions of the bodies showed that, for example, a father was trying to shelter his child. But what I found most touching was the evidence of the everyday life of individual people. From inscriptions, we know the names of some individuals. The excavations yielded dishes with food in them, jewelry, tools, medical instruments, cooking pots, and other objects of everyday use, as well as beautiful murals and mosaics. Most of these materials were moved to museums in Naples, but some of the murals remain in place.

Before our next visit, I began to read about daily life in ancient Rome; it became such a strong interest that I collected an extensive library of books, including historical and archaeological texts. My husband and I returned to Pompeii two more times to explore the city; and knowing more about the history helped us to understand what we saw, and to look for details that we might not otherwise have noticed. There are guide books called “Then and Now” that pair photographs of the present day ruins with painted overlays that provide artist’s reconstructions of what the buildings probably looked like when they were intact; those images helped me to imagine the city when it was alive and bustling with commerce. We also visited Herculaneum and Ostia. It is actually easier to imagine that the past is alive in Ostia than in Pompeii because some of the buildings are better preserved and it is less crowded with tourists.

But, back to the Harris novel: he did an impressive job of combining accurate historical research with a suspenseful story. The incident of the slave being fed to eels actually happened, unfortunately, although Harris changed the circumstances a little to include it in his story.

Two things I particularly liked in this book: first, instead of stereotyping all Romans as villains, Harris has a Roman hero who is a basically good, honest, hardworking man (trying to deal with both the forces of nature and the problems posed by a corrupt bureaucracy). Second, he highlights an aspect of Roman life that most fiction does not mention: the sophistication of their engineering accomplishments. Some of the aqueducts and roads built in ancient times are still in use today! This is quite a different picture of ancient Rome than the one in “Gladiator”.

I think I saw an interview with Harris somewhere on the web in which he said that he plans to write a few more novels set in ancient Rome: that is something to look forward to!

I won a book about Pompeii? That is wonderful and am looking forward to its arrival. As someone who loves to cook they just looked to me like someway to measure something. I myself have an assortment of measuring devices..so I think it was the right thing to guess.

As I have mentioned before I have been to Pompeii..It was a place I could have spent a week at least. Thinking of all the people who lived there was a bit daunting when you realize how devastating the eruption was. We stayed at a hotel on the Meditrarrean and the sand was almost powdery black..we were told it was the result of the eruptions.

Well drat I hit the wrong key and erased all I had written I am pleased to win something and a book about Pompeii is ideal.

As I mentioned before we visited Pompeii when we lived in Europe. I loved Italy but to me Pompeii was the highlight of our trip. I am always overwhelmed and overcome when I stand where some great historical events occur. For me there is always a haunting quality to it and there is a part of me that seems to know what it was like when the event occured. So it was in Pompeii. There were ghosts there and I could see them in the ruins. I marveled how advanced they were and what a large community it really was. The ruts in the paved stone road where the chariots and carts moved ..with the stepping stones placed just so to avoid the open sewers. The homes with the atriums and the dining rooms with frescoes and hint of the unusual seating arrangements. I dont eat in bed even when ill if I can avoid it so to know they did that every day seems odd and rather uncouth to me. AND even seated at a table I am always dropping food onto my clothes .so I picture the robes as maps of meals.

The museums in Pompeii were full of medical instruments still in use to day well at least when I was there and the casts of the animals and figures of people lost in the castrophe ...We walked down to where the gate to the docking area used to be and could see it was now filled in with ash and the sea if I remember correctly was two miles from that pier.

Young people over use the word AWESOME but to me that is the perfect word to describe the ruins at Pompeii>

anna

a

The Romans are famous for many things, but especially their aqueducts. In'Life of Brian' someone asks, "What have the Romans ever done for us?" The tentative answer is, "Aqueducts?" There are many things that the Romans have accomplished, but aqueducts are most visible. Parts of them are still standing in many places. Yet, I cannot remember anything about them in the Latin literature that I have read. I haven't read Vitruvius, which may been Harris' source. Does anyone remember a mentioning of aqueducts anwhere? I learned a lot about aqueducts in this book and found it interesting. The Romans were great engineers, but not too much is made of this; we look at the monuments in the Forum & elsewhere and pay most of our attention to what they represent, not how they were built. Pliny the Elder might have some passages on aqueducts, but I have read very little of his Encyclopedia. Perhaps Harris wanted to have as one of the basics of his novel something not well known to make the book more interesting. If so, he succeeded as far as I am concerned.

1)I think one thing is very clear from this book and others is that we have to pay attention to environmental issues. I don't know about anyone else but unless we pay attention to things like "water" and "trembling earthquakes" our cities are likely sooner rather than later going to end up like Pompeii, but as Pompeii was strickly speaking a local issue I think are problems will lead to a global issue. At the beginning of the book the water problem really struck home for me. Mother Nature continues to give us signs and signals and in some cases literally jumps up and down to get our attention. There were signs that something big was coming back in 63AD when Pompeii was devastated by the earthquake. So in short I would have to say that this book is really about recognizing the signs and signals that Mother Nature gives us and doing something about it.

2)Do we really know what happened? The suviors of course, that told the tale, but human beings tend to embelish, especially when it comes to disasters. Again it is the earth will tell the real tale.

I happened to think there will always be room for yet another tale of "Pompeii". Just as no two people see the same accident the same way; so I think people don't see disasters the same way. Unlike subsequent eruptions the eruption of Vesuvius resulted in only the top of the mountain blowing off by an explosion and although ashes rained down on the cities of Herculaneum, Pompeii , and Stabiae no lava was ejected. But how did these ancient people respond to this eruption? This story can be told by so many people. Officials, poor and rich people, men and woman, slaves and masters, but I like the fact that Robert Harris had an engineer tell this tale. Not only do we get the feel for what happened, but we get it from the point of view from an engineer who not only thinks like an engineer, but reacts to the eruption with an engineering instinct.

How interesting to know that the incident with the eels really happened. It does highlight an aspect of the Romans that we know from "The Story of Civilization", the prevelance of cruel games. I, too, like the picture of all different kinds of people, in Pompaii as everywhere.

The material on the aquaducts was fascinating, it's one reason I decided to read the book. At one dramatic level, it doesn't work: it's hard to get involved in the problems of making the water flow and the aquarius's corruption when you know the eruption will make all that irrelevant. But it actually lends quite a bit of interest to the book. Pliny as a character is quite interesting.

I only went to Pompaii once, 40 years ago. All of the displays you all have mentioned weren't there yet. My vivid memory is of the rooms where ordinary people lived: so small that I could not have lain down in them. When I commented, the guide said that people were smaller then.

I read once that the average Roman was five feet tall. I told my students once and they were horrified; I think that they lost some respect for the Romans. But, if you have seen museum displays of clothes worn during the Revolutionary period, or even Civil War times, you'd think that they were worn by children.

I think that the author started with the aqueduct so that we could start out with a small problem. Most disasters overwhelm us and therefore they seem out of control right from the beginning. The book is about controling Mother Nature - or at least attempting to do so. As Marcus Attilus Primus confronts the problem of the blockage he goes on to discover that that problem was merely the tip of the iceberg. It also will bring us full circle by the end of the book - but for those that have not read that far I won't give it away. As we, the reader, walk with Marcus we find ourselves getting more and more involved. By finding the sorce of the aqueduct's problem he discovers the source of Vesuvius's problem.

3. I think one of things I discovered about this erruption was that when Vesuvius blew its top no lava was ejected as in subsequent eruptions. When I think of volcanos I always see brilliant red lava shooting up and running down the side of the volcano.

I also wasn't aware that there were any surviors from this disaster. I guess my version of the eruption was that of Hollywood's version where you see thousands of extras perishing and whole cities disappearing under piles of ash.

hoo I'm so sorry, am totally behind here, we had our own aqueductus interruptus as our plumbing in the children's former area of the house just broke and we had flooding everywhere, it was unreal. Finally got that stopped and they came and brought the new washer and dryer I ordered (and I'm not going to tell you what was wrong with the dryer,) hahahaa but suffice it to say I bet the next one will not have THAT problem.

What wonderful points you've all made!

Back in a minute!

Thank you for mentioning the BBC web site. I have been reading Roman history all this past year, without thinking of using SeniorNet as a source. Will get the book "Pompeii" to read ASAP. Thanks to everyone. And please give more suggestions.

MIPPY!! We were posting together, WELCOME!! I did not see you there! Yes we're becoming a classics SITE here, do join us! !

What a super send off you’ve given this book, let me ask what type of book this is? This is the first time I have ever read a …is it historical fiction? Or what would you call it? What’s your idea of how effective it was, I am interested in this type of book, never having read one before?

Amparo, I am so glad you were able to go back, talking about saving Pompeii, they have set aside 43 acres to never be excavated, but I thought I had read that Herculaneum was again pretty much covered in this last eruption, do any of you know anything more about that?

Herculaneum is considered superior to Pompeii in ruins, or used to be, it’s interesting that he picked Pompeii.

Hey Malryn, welcome in, sure you’re welcome even tho you have not visited Pompeii, what was your original take on Pompeii and did the book change it in any way?

Rebecca, what a wonderful post!

How did you feel about viewing the plaster casts, as you say, very moving, do you think they should be exhibited as they are?

Wonderful point you make on the artifacts and murals showing us how people lived in Pompeii!! I am wondering if Harris’s slant on the nature of the people in Pompeii matched your own…wait a minute, let’s ask everybody: WHAT did you understand Harris’s portrayal of the town and the people to be? I know that’s not put well but I’m trying to get at something?

Tell us about Herculaneum, please I have never been there, but just returned (again) to Ostia which I do have photos of which I hope you all will enjoy!

(Do you have any pictures?)

You say, “But, back to the Harris novel: he did an impressive job of combining accurate historical research with a suspenseful story,” did you happen to notice, as an author yourself, some of the devices he used to make the story suspenseful? I was quite caught up in what he did.

HO! Thank you for the eels incident actually happening, will you fill us in on the details and history of that?

SO glad to have you in this discussion.

haha Anna, yes you won and it’s a gorgeous book, there was a great on on Pompeii at Ostia, put out by their equivalent of the Parks Service, but in Italian so you got this better one!!

Have any of you been to Cumae?

Wonderful points on the stepping stones in the road and the plainness of the houses when they fronted on the roads. Our New Latin 101 text really goes into a lot of detail on this. Funny you should mention about eating lying down, when we used to talk about what the Romans ate, “pine nuts” were always mentioned? And people always said UGG? Well I know you all know that pine nuts are BIG in the gourmet recipes today and at a BIG price, too? Everything old is new again?

You are so right on the medical instruments, I have a photograph of one here for you, but unfortunately we are having a bit of a technical problem at present and I can’t upload it, HOWEVER when I post it in here I won’t say what it is, let’s see if you can guess!

more….

Barbara, a wonderful point on aqueducts, and the service Harris does here in pointing them out. Can any of the rest of you recall reading a book about the aqueducts themselves before this?

I’ve read some Frontinus (who lists abuses in the administration of aqueducts, does Harris mention him at the end?) and some Vitruvius, and Aicher, who wrote a wonderful book on the 11 aqueducts of Rome, but I did not realize that aqueducts were not featured in more books.

Great question, is this everybody’s first experience with reading about aqueducts? I’ll put that in the heading also as soon as this storm passes, am typing between lightning bolts!

Barbara, also great point on the normal height of the Romans, of cousre, there were some exceptions, as always, I think Julius Caesar was over 6 feet tall, and never realized until now that we're actually talking about it, how much more that would make him stand out? Good point. Some of those doorways are really low. I know we just want to the Roman settlement at Koln Germany...strange name it had, am trying to recall it....and boy if you did not duck you would lose your head.

Oh good point Scrawler, on some of the possible messages or themes in the book. You have listed environmental issues, I’ll get a list in the heading tomorrow, let’s see how many other messages we can see!

I was struck by this quote, if you all still have your book, if you’ll look on page 272, at the paragraph on the bottom beginning…

Men mistook measurement for understanding. And they always had to put themselves at the center of everything. …here was nature, sweeping towards him—unknowable, all-conquering, indifferent=and he saw in her fires the futility of human pretensions.

I was quite struck by the hero’s, Attilius (more on that word “aquarius” later) attitude toward life and fate and thought several times in the book Harris made a point about the futility of man versus nature, would you agree with that point, or not?

Do we really know what happened? Another good point, is this book simply Harris’s imagination, were the eye witness accounts embellished or do you think this really happened in this way?

I also like Scrawler’s point on the choice of narrator? Now how would this story be different, say, if another protagonist had been chosen? Who IS the protagonist, by the way? Up in the heading that one goes, too.

And what IS this story about, anyway?

Joan, I sort of had the same feeling, on a dramatic level the aqueducts and the volcano does not work too well for me, either, plot wise I had a problem making the connection.

I thought Pliny was incredibly interesting and have put up in the heading for you all the actual letter his nephew Pliny the Younger, wrote to Tacitus about his death. I had no idea he was so heavy!!

And here is another thing Harris’s book has done for me. I used to talk about Pliny the Elder and his sailing towards Vesuvius out of curiosity, students seemed amazed at his bravery/ or single minded scientific approach, but either I missed or never realized that he was going in rescue, that makes a completely different slant on it, to me. Man was a hero, brave and unflinching, I’m glad to know that, even now.

Now do you all understand what it WAS which actually killed Pliny the Elder?

You have this mental picture of lava as Scrawler (Anne) has said, and here we have ash, pumice, little stones and ash, did he suffocate? Did they just leave him in the road? (was not clear on that one? What did you make of that?) Or was it one of those flash things which are thousands of degrees? Didn’t you feel sorry for them!! I did. And weren’t they clever in how they coped? I found myself wondering how I would ever have coped!

Barbara great point on the civil war uniforms, what of suits of armor!!?? I would have a hard time getting my own slightly chubby self into some of the suits of armor I have seen on display in museums? Talk about Wasp Waists! (of course Henry VIII was different, I wonder if all the great leaders have been physically different in some way, actually??)

Oh well said, Scrawler, “The book is about controlling Mother Nature ,” I think that is certainly ONE of the points he’s making, what are some of the others?

Oh I completely missed the significance of “sulfur”, thank you for pointing that out (is that what you meant by the “source of Vesuvius’s problem?”)

Yes and another good point, how does this book compare to the Hollywood versions you all have seen of the eruptions of Vesuvius??

The Last Days of Pompeii? Which do you think is more accurate?

Ok so now we have a LOT more questions for you, who is the protagonist, what are some of the more hidden themes, or messages, have you read a book about aqueducts before, do you think the recorded letters and eye witness accounts of the disaster are accurate, what do you think actually killed Pliny, did they just leave him lying there to die, and how about who killed Exomnius, in fact that entire thing about Exomnius, was that woven in well?

Penny for your thoughts on any of these or any other point you’d like to raise!

>

I thought making the enginer the voice of the book was a good idea....and I saw and marveled at the aqueducts when we were in Italy ..somewhere I have slides of all the places we visited and of the remains of aqueducts...to me to finally understand the magnitude and the engineering that went into the constuction is special I always like to know HOW things work.

Somewhere I got the idea some of the people died from the fumes...or was that another volcano eruption some where else. But I know it doesnt take a lot of just dust to affect me so here was this ash and I assume it was also hot..so it would seem many would be overcome by the effects of the ash.

Yes I think the body casts are important to understand what happened. I dont think they were shown for morbid purposes but to let us know how it really was. It is said a picture is worth a thousand words..those body casts spoke to me..I could almost feel how confused and how the populace suffered. To me it drove home what a true castrophe this was. Not just houses and land were covered but humans and animals.

The book gives me an understanding of what I saw ...and I knew people of years ago were small but only 5'....? I am only 5' and personally I think it would be nice to live among people the same size ..you can look at them eye to eye instead of eye to belt buckles. Now I wonder why mankind grew taller.

I am sorry the story of the eels was true ..anna

I read your postings with great interest and oh boy, am I learning heaps! In Spain where I was born there are still many aqueducts not only standing but in fact some are doing the job for what they were meant to.

I had read, as Anna says, that many people who survived the actual Vesuvio's eruption, heat and lava were latter killed by the extremely toxic fumes when trying to leave/scape Pompei. (why only one "i" on Pompei, cos italians write it so and as this is an italian subject...

) Cheers all.

Amparo

ISN'T this fun? I hate I have so many questions thrown all at once at you over the whole book, I have a million more, too! We can take it in smaller parts if you'd like, just say the word?!

Amparo, I'm learning a lot also, and it's amazing what I did NOT know about Pompeii and the volcano, I had pictured the molten lava coursing over the poor souls. Now I read last night that Herculaneum WAS covered in mud and lava, how awful, but they had time to escape apparently? And by his map in the book, they were really closer. I am not sure how many miles we ARE talking about, does anybody know?

Have any of you ever seen those National Geographic documentaries on volcanoes? That fire flash thing, I don’t see how anybody ever escaped it!

And yes, as somebody said earlier, we tend to think that all of those at Pompeii were killed but I think the numbers are that there were 2,000 killed out of a total of 20,000 inhabitants, (how did the rest escape??).

I did like the way Harris brought Stabiae in the story, you don’t hear much about Stabiae, and I did not know anything of it, actually. I wonder exactly how far the lava did flow, or the ash did go, in ALL directions, not just toward Pompeii and the coast. Does anybody know? I’d like to see a map of THAT if they know.

Imagine the scene, wouldn’t YOU head for the water? Where would you have gone?

I did not know there were trees on Vesuvius, that's one of the first things he says! I had not pictured it that way, had you??

Anna mentioned the streets and I have this neato thing to bring you all about the streets, I did not know this either!

This is from Nappo:

While the maintenance of the streets was the responsibility of the aediles (public magistrates), the upkeep of the pavements, under the supervision of the same aediles, fell to the owners of the houses fronting onto them. As a result there are frequent differences in the pavements; some are made of rough opus signium, others are decorated with marble crustae, and others are made of lava cement.

At crossroads, large, square, pavement height blocks were placed at regular intervals between the road paving slabs. these served as pedestrian crossings, and were very useful, especially on rainy days, when the road bed would fill with rainwater and, as it sloped downhill, became an open stream

I did NOT know that about the pavements, think of that. I would hate to be responsible for the pavement outside my house!

Amparo, Spain!! Yes the famous aqueducts!! The famous one at Segovia, have you seen any others?

Rome still has water coming into the city from aqueducts, too. In fact it’s as cold as ice, you can see people gathering around the fountains even now to fill water bottles, and it runs quite strongly.

The Marcia Pia and the Felice, I think, are still running, and there are about 3 more I think.

Aicher says that at its height, Rome’s 11 aqueducts brought in, by “modern estimates” in the “range of 150- 200,000, 000 gallons “ per DAY into Rome, and no, I don’t have too many zeroes!! hahahaThe longest aqueduct was the Marcia at 91 k, it’s absolutely amazing, isn’t it? Almost hard to believe. I mean I have a plumbing problem right now in 2004, and there’s no way I would be able to bring water from anywhere! Much less hundreds of miles away, dropping an inch a mile or whatever it was: what smart people.

I have never seen an explanation of why Pompeii ends in two ii’s, have any of you? What an interesting question!!

Talking about some of the mysteries in the book and how they added to the suspense, here are a few of the mysteries I noticed, are there any others?

Where is Exomnius and what happened to him?

Why does Corax not want Attilius to go to Pompeii?

And finally, so much to talk about it’s hard to focus, I liked the way the author threw us immediately on the first page, into conflict. And it seemed as it went along poor Attilius kept encountering more and more conflict while the clock meanwhile, kept ticking.

I liked the use of the kind of dry volcano information (none of which I understood) at the beginning of each chapter, along with the clock which kept counting down, very effective devices to keep you reminded that here we’re acting out our drama but nature’s clock keeps on ticking, and there’s NO time left!

Now what do you think about any or all of this??

I have seen aqueducts in Colima, Mexico and Queretaro, Mexico. I believe they are remnants of Maximillan's days in Mexico.

Kathy

I loved the accounts of Pliny the Elder throughout the story. He was a great scientist, a born naturalist who loved to personally observe the phenomena that this world offered. He was a devoted uncle and friend as well as being well versed in cosmology, geography, zoology and medicine.
From my reading, I learned that he described an ox-driven grain harvester in Gaul that scholars believed was imaginary but was later confirmed to have existed by its discovery in southern Belgium in 1958 on a stone that depicted this very same implement.
He also recorded Latin synonyms of Greek plant names making them easily identifiable.

Now , in today’s politicaly correct world the great scientist such as he, must first pose a hypothesis and endure dozens of controlled experiments, spending thousand-billions of dollars to prove teir theories. For Pliny, the beauty was in his being able to personally SEE it happen and record it.
The account of Pliny the Elders last hours comes from a letter his nephew, whom we meet in this story, wrote to the historian Cornelius Tacitus. Pliny the Elder had made detailed notes on almost everything he observed during his life.

He was truly a great man and I have learned much about him and his life. Ginny, you asked what happened to him. After seeing that Pompeii was already buried , he ordered the ships (he was the commander of the imperial fleet and could order at will) into the harbor at Stabiae, south of there. He stayed with a friend over night and in the morning he lay down on a sheet, on the beach and succumbed to the fumes. He died in the arms of two slaves who were trying to assist him.

AQUA =WATER
DUCT= LED

PG. 31- “AN AQUADUCT WAS A WORK OF MAN, BUT IT OBEYED THE LAWS OF NATURE.”

Pg. 107 we are told, by Ampliatus that Augustus built that aqueduct at a cost of two million a mile!” Holy smokes I thought only politicians and movies stars had that kind of $$$$$$$$$.

Remember the Romans were not the first group to build aqueducts but the amount that they DID build is the impressive factoid. It’s been said that “If all of Rome's aqueducts were lined together the total distance would be around 313 miles.” Imagine the abundance of supplies needed to reach this feat and the distances traveled by the water before it reached its destination! They had to literally tunnel through the mountains, creating underground passage and in the case of the longest aqueduct in the world, the Augusta, the engineers opinion was that that was the problem-- “she had to do too much!" I have a question noted here in my book as I read along that asks “Do drought conditions literally affect the plates?” Does anyone have an answer for me on that question?

I loved this description of the Aquarian: The engineer could stand here, listening and lost in thought, for hours. The percussion of the August sounded in his ears not as a dull and continuous roar but as the notes of a gigantic water organ; the music of civilization." Here's a guy who loved his job and was danged pround of it.

Kathy!! Welcome welcome, I am so glad to see you here and MIPPY who is brand new to our boards, again WELCOME! I missed her post entirely yesterday!

Tell you all a little secret? It's quite easy not to see the post or message somebody else left. But you can be sure you see ALL if you look up on the top right hand corner of the page? Do you see a teal sort of box? and the words Enlarge Text, Shrink Text, Print Page? Well hit Print page! You will NOT be printing, unless you do a separate command, but you will have a separate screen open almost like (but not) a pop up and you can read the last 100 posts or so, Mippy I am sorry I did not see you!

You've come to the right place!

Kathy tell us what the aqueducts in Mexico looked like? I am quite interested in them. While in Texas we were told we would see an "aqueduct" so I was all excited, camera poised, looking for this huge Roman thing, and behold, it was sort of a trench in the ground!

But it worked?

Andrea, I can see you have fallen in love with aqueducts!

But did you understand on Pliny's death, that the slaves stayed WITH him or that they returned later to help him? That's sort of vague?

PLATES? You talk of plates? I hope you are talking about the earth's plates, (are you?) If so will somebody PLEASE explain the movement of the plates to us? I drive everybody around me crazy predicting the next earthquake because of the opposing PLATES in the earth, I hope somebody will come in here and explain the plates to us (even IF that is not what you meant).

Who was a stronger character, to you? Pliny or Attillius?

(I promise on Monday we'll stop this scattershot approach and hone in on something, let's find out what YOU all want to hone in ON!)

Meanwhile have a very Happy 4th!

Tectonic, earth plates. Not dentures, Ginny. hahah, not plates as in eating, nor serving sish, nor license plates- tectonic plates !

plates here

Yes the plates of the earth. You sit on one of the largest faults in the USA where you live, so close to Charleston.,SC.

It only stands to reason that drought conditions, over a prolonged period of time might have some affect on the movement of these plates, causing major disruption of the earth's surface.

It's interesting to go back in time to those days immediately preceeding the eruption, and right after. The psychology of the people is very similar to that of people living in the San Francisco Bay area--you know you are living in an unstable part of the earth, but day-to-day life pushes this into the background. When the water stops flowing normally, the first thought of the engineer is not the volcano. He suspects the usual type of obstruction.

You asked what mysteries were in the book. There was, of course, the mystery of what happened to the water supply. Also the mystery surrounding the missing Exomnius and the funds embezzled from Rome.

I think, from one point of view, this book is about honesty and heroism vs. greed and corruption. It's also about romance and the triumph of true love in the face of human obstacles and natural disasters. The two heroic characters are Attilius, the young engineer who is determined to do his duty and avoid the temptations offered to him by the evil Ampliatus, and Pliny, the older engineer and historian. Pliny, despite his age and infirmities, is determined to save a valuable library and to document the eruption for history.

Yes, we do know historically what is going to happen. But we don't know what is going to happen to the individual characters in this story. Who will escape? Will the lovers find each other? Will Ampliatus get what he deserves?

Then there is the whole cultural setting in which the story takes place--the lives of the slaves, the huge gap between the rich and poor, and the status of women, both rich and poor, who are merely possessions of fathers and husbands.

Attilius, the engineer, represents humankind and our war against the forces of nature that constantly seek to reclaim whatever we try to build. "Civilization," he says, "was a relentless war that man was doomed to lose eventually." Yet despite this view, Attilius tries valiantly to do his job and hold back nature's efforts to win the war.

Everything you always wanted to know about Tectonic Plates:

http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/class/100/plate-tectonics.html

I agree with Andrea that Pliny is one of the most interesting characters in the book. His nephew, also a character in the book, wrote about his uncle's attempted rescue, and he described the events in a way very similar to that described in this book.

At the time of the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in A.D. 79 the Roman fleet under the command of Pliny the Elder was stationed across the Bay of Naples at Misenum. Pliny launched ships and sailed toward the erupting volcano for closer observation and to attempt a rescue. No rescue was possible and Pliny himself died during the eruption, not in the streets of Pompeii, but across the bay at Stabiae.

Pliny's nephew, whom we know as Pliny the Younger, was with him at Misenum, but did not venture out on the ships with his uncle. He stayed back at Misenum and observed the events from there. He also received first-hand reports from those who had been with his uncle at his death. Based on this information Pliny the Younger wrote two letters to the historian Tacitus that recount the events surrounding the eruption of Vesuvius and the death of Pliny the Elder. The letters survive and provide a vivid account of the events.

Here is one of the Pliny Letters:

My dear Tacitus,

You ask me to write you something about the death of my uncle so that the account you transmit to posterity is as reliable as possible. I am grateful to you, for I see that his death will be remembered forever if you treat it [sc. in your Histories]. He perished in a devastation of the loveliest of lands, in a memorable disaster shared by peoples and cities, but this will be a kind of eternal life for him. Although he wrote a great number of enduring works himself, the imperishable nature of your writings will add a great deal to his survival. Happy are they, in my opinion, to whom it is given either to do something worth writing about, or to write something worth reading; most happy, of course, those who do both. With his own books and yours, my uncle will be counted among the latter. It is therefore with great pleasure that I take up, or rather take upon myself the task you have set me.

He was at Misenum in his capacity as commander of the fleet on the 24th of August [sc. in 79 AD], when between 2 and 3 in the afternoon my mother drew his attention to a cloud of unusual size and appearance. He had had a sunbath, then a cold bath, and was reclining after dinner with his books. He called for his shoes and climbed up to where he could get the best view of the phenomenon. The cloud was rising from a mountain-at such a distance we couldn't tell which, but afterwards learned that it was Vesuvius. I can best describe its shape by likening it to a pine tree. It rose into the sky on a very long "trunk" from which spread some "branches." I imagine it had been raised by a sudden blast, which then weakened, leaving the cloud unsupported so that its own weight caused it to spread sideways. Some of the cloud was white, in other parts there were dark patches of dirt and ash. The sight of it made the scientist in my uncle determined to see it from closer at hand.

He ordered a boat made ready. He offered me the opportunity of going along, but I preferred to study-he himself happened to have set me a writing exercise. As he was leaving the house he was brought a letter from Tascius' wife Rectina, who was terrified by the looming danger. Her villa lay at the foot of Vesuvius, and there was no way out except by boat. She begged him to get her away. He changed his plans. The expedition that started out as a quest for knowledge now called for courage. He launched the quadriremes and embarked himself, a source of aid for more people than just Rectina, for that delightful shore was a populous one. He hurried to a place from which others were fleeing, and held his course directly into danger. Was he afraid? It seems not, as he kept up a continuous observation of the various movements and shapes of that evil cloud, dictating what he saw.

Ash was falling onto the ships now, darker and denser the closer they went. Now it was bits of pumice, and rocks that were blackened and burned and shattered by the fire. Now the sea is shoal; debris from the mountain blocks the shore. He paused for a moment wondering whether to turn back as the helmsman urged him. "Fortune helps the brave," he said, "Head for Pomponianus."

At Stabiae, on the other side of the bay formed by the gradually curving shore, Pomponianus had loaded up his ships even before the danger arrived, though it was visible and indeed extremely close, once it intensified. He planned to put out as soon as the contrary wind let up. That very wind carried my uncle right in, and he embraced the frightened man and gave him comfort and courage. In order to lessen the other's fear by showing his own unconcern he asked to be taken to the baths. He bathed and dined, carefree or at least appearing so (which is equally impressive). Meanwhile, broad sheets of flame were lighting up many parts of Vesuvius; their light and brightness were the more vivid for the darkness of the night. To alleviate people's fears my uncle claimed that the flames came from the deserted homes of farmers who had left in a panic with the hearth fires still alight. Then he rested, and gave every indication of actually sleeping; people who passed by his door heard his snores, which were rather resonant since he was a heavy man. The ground outside his room rose so high with the mixture of ash and stones that if he had spent any more time there escape would have been impossible. He got up and came out, restoring himself to Pomponianus and the others who had been unable to sleep. They discussed what to do, whether to remain under cover or to try the open air. The buildings were being rocked by a series of strong tremors, and appeared to have come loose from their foundations and to be sliding this way and that. Outside, however, there was danger from the rocks that were coming down, light and fire-consumed as these bits of pumice were. Weighing the relative dangers they chose the outdoors; in my uncle's case it was a rational decision, others just chose the alternative that frightened them the least.

They tied pillows on top of their heads as protection against the shower of rock. It was daylight now elsewhere in the world, but there the darkness was darker and thicker than any night. But they had torches and other lights. They decided to go down to the shore, to see from close up if anything was possible by sea. But it remained as rough and uncooperative as before. Resting in the shade of a sail he drank once or twice from the cold water he had asked for. Then came an smell of sulfur, announcing the flames, and the flames themselves, sending others into flight but reviving him. Supported by two small slaves he stood up, and immediately collapsed. As I understand it, his breathing was obstructed by the dust-laden air, and his innards, which were never strong and often blocked or upset, simply shut down. When daylight came again 2 days after he died, his body was found untouched, unharmed, in the clothing that he had had on. He looked more asleep than dead.

Meanwhile at Misenum, my mother and I-but this has nothing to do with history, and you only asked for information about his death. I'll stop here then. But I will say one more thing, namely, that I have written out everything that I did at the time and heard while memories were still fresh. You will use the important bits, for it is one thing to write a letter, another to write history, one thing to write to a friend, another to write for the public. Farewell.

Thanks for the BIG welcome, Ginny, and your email. Your "print" instructions were just what I needed to get back to earlier posts. Still waiting for my book to arrive, but reading posts with enjoyment in the meantime.

There's Mippy (Susan). A welcome letter has been sent to you and I look forward to seeing your name all over our Books and Lit. site. This is a great book to start your intro. into our arms.

Horselover- you find the BEST sites.

Be back after Bagger Vance.

Horselover as your URL site shows the earth can be manipulated but do you know if drought can affect that?

Our twenty seven yr. old engineer certainly starts with a “motley crew” doesn’t he? Corax, who is downright mutinous as his overseer mocks him as they travel along, baiting him and antagonizing him. He rudely makes obscene gestures and Attilius wonders if he might be trying to sabotage his mission. Becco- the long nosed plasterer , Mesa the rotund bricklayer and two slaves Polites and Covinus. I think that I would be a bit reluctant to have these men as my assistants.

Mea culpa for creating doubts to Pompeii spelling. Pompeii (two ii) was the Roman name of Pompei (italian spelling). Geez this really is making me search and research… good for my non existent knowledge in the matter. I can see I am going to end up being from ignoramus to: little less ignoramus.

As I read your postings, I keep saying: "that's right, I had read that". However as I cannot fine any books on the subject within my books, I must had read about it while in Spain and in my (archeologist) relations' place. Please keep on, I fine this serial very, very intersting.

Now, aqueducts. Last ones I saw was last April while in Valencia – Spain. It was on the private property of a palace about 20 minutes drive from the Borgia’s place in Alicant. There was not much left of this aqueduct, about 50 metres of it, none the less it was impressive. Then on a train trip from Valencia to Barcelona along the eastern coast of Spain if one has a window seat on the left of the train one has a very good view of the remains of the once great aqueduct of Roman Terrago, (now called Tarragona). South of Spain has few also; the one in Maenoba (now Guadiamar) used to carry 345,000 litres of cool, crystaline water per day.

Cheers all,

Amparo. (in Adelaide, South australia)

Many of the following facts are incorporated in "Pompeii" to add a sense of realism to the story of a fictitious engineer with a single-minded devotion to duty:

"The aquaducts of Rome are a representation of the organisational ability and technological mastery of the Roman Civilization. Frontinus, Director of the Rome Metropolitan Waterworks in 97 AD realized what Rome had achieved from his quote "it the only city in the ancient world with an almost endless supply of water". By 97 AD Rome had nine aqueducts.

"The Romans weren't the first civilization to create aqueducts to channel water over great distances. The Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, and Egyptians had all built aqueducts before the Romans. The number of aqueducts built by the Romans that ended up in Rome is the impressive feat. The final count was eleven by 266 AD.

"The construction of the aqueducts had two zones: above ground or below ground. Materials used in the construction of the above ground archway aqueduct were concrete, brick, and cement. Some were large enough to allow for foot travel on the first tier of the aqueduct. The movement of water down the aqueduct was all done by gravity. The source of the water needed to be at a high altitude in order for the water to arrive its destination. High arches were built in order to maintain a constant level of the aqueduct allowing the water to flow at a constant rate. With height, came instability. The Romans found ways such as multiple levels of arches to combat the problems of stability due to pressure from weight. The aqueducts were fed by mountain springs. The fact that only 10 percent of the aqueducts ran above ground is surprising. The rest of the aqueducts ran either at ground level or usually below ground. The parts of the aqueduct that were below ground were usually below 1 meter. Inspection manholes were scattered along the aqueduct to allow for repairs and inspection.

"The operation of a Roman aqueduct has its interesting facts. Originally, the main reason the Romans built the aqueducts was to fill their baths. Later, it was decided for them to be used for drinking water when Rome's population increased. Frontinus`s account of the history of the aqueducts built for Rome go in detail of the location, distances, who built them, and descriptions of Rome's eleven aqueducts. His personal observations of finding leaking sections of aqueduct, illegal usage of water, and other problems. He got his name by reforming the problems that prone the operation of the aqueducts.

"Each aqueduct was named usually after the person who headed up the construction of it. Every aqueduct was known for its particular quality of water. As we have today in different parts of the country, different "flavours" of water, some hard and some soft. The aquaduct Marcia was known for it's fresh and cool water. The Tepula was lukewarm. Another was known for its abundance, but sandy and impure water. One was mainly used for watering gardens and flooding the arena for marine gladiatorial fights because of its poor quality. Sometimes aquaducts would break down and water had to be redirected in order to get water to other parts of the city. This usually meant the different quality of waters mixing with each other. Since there were no modern day filters in ancient Rome other means were used to try and purify the water. Settling tanks were used to let any mud and other sediments settle on the bottom letting the water continue to flow.

"Rome's aqueducts insured its people an unlimited supply of water for their needs. By 226 AD Rome's aqueducts were discharging about 297,795,871 gallons every day. If all of Rome's aqueducts were lined together the total distance would be around 313 miles. These statistics show how productive and lengthy the aqueducts were. The Romans took pride in their creations. Many of the aqueducts of ancient Rome still stand today as monuments of the Roman civilization."

However, we should keep in mind that their were many things the Romans did not know about water purification. There is a theory that Roman civilization eventually collapsed in part because of the slow but insidious effects of lead poisoning carried by the water.

The eels episode represents the crulty of human beings towards one another. It brings home hard and clear that if we only listen to one another and try to understand our fellow man/woman how much easier it would be to solve our problems. This scene also is a representation of a class society. The master of Roman times would never listen to a slave, nor would the politicians listen to the people of Pompeii. It took an engineer with engineering skills and thinking to see beyond the class issue and discover what the problem was.

Have a safe and happy 4th of July.

Ginny: were you planning on posting the pictures of aquaducts that you posted last year in the Story of Civilization? If not, here is the linkThere are two posts, don't miss the second. (Did you post more? I seem to remember more, but can't find them).

GINNY'S AQUADUCTS

Joan!!

BLESS YOU! How on earth did you remember those!?! I have been tearing the house apart looking for the one of the Aqua Marcia, amazing, thank you eternally! I have copied all of them and will post them here now, so it will be easier for people to see them THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

Harris mentions the Pont du Gard and the Aqua Claudia (and I think the Marcia, doesn't he?) in Pompeii.

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I thought you might enjoy seeing just one of the engineering triumphs of the Romans, something of great fascination to me, an example of Roman engineering and hydraulics: the Aqueduct.

The Romans did not invent the aqueduct, but elevated the concept to new heights. Over a distance of more than 500 kilometers on what Goethe called "a succession of triumphal arches," the Romans brought tremendous volumes of water, estimated at 150-200,000,000 gallons per day,(Guide to the Aqueducts of Ancient Rome... Aicher) into the city of Rome, stored it in various stages of collection tanks, and distributed it to the 13,000 public fountains, 11 gigantic public baths called Thermae, 856 other public baths, and wealthy private homes, which did have running water. The water also helped flush refuse from the city in the huge sewer, the Cloaca Maxmia, still in use today.

The aqueduct

illustration of aqueduct's path: click to enlarge:

operated on a principle of water running along a channel on the top, slanted to a gradual fall to control the volume and pressure. Among the more famous aqueducts the Romans built remaining are this one in France, (Gaul) the Pont du Gard

The Pont du Gard in France: click to enlarge:

which has the astounding drop of 7mm over a hundred meters, an amazing feat of engineering.

Julius Caesar would have known four of the eleven eventual aqueducts, the Appia (312 BC, 75,000 cubic meters a day) the Anio Vetus (272-269 BC) (180,000 cubic meters per day.), The Marcia (144-140 BC: 190,000 cubic meters of water per day) and the Tepula, a warm water channel from a hot spring often mixed with the others as desired, (126-125BC) 17, 800 cubic meters per day.

The Aqua Marcia of Caesar's day is still partially seen here

The Aqua Marcia in 2002: click to enlarge:

in remains in a park in the suburbs of Rome in 2002. This Park of the Aqueducts has an astonishing confluence of mammoth arches and aqueducts.

more....

Here the Claudian arcade

The incredible sight of the Aqua Claudia in 2002: click to enlarge

stretches into the countryside. The Aqua Claudia, built in 38-52 AD, was 69 kilometers long and 67 meters high, bringing in 185, 000 cubic meters of water per second into the city. Its mammoth ruins

The Aqua Claudia up close: click to enlarge:

even now inspire awe, tho they let archaeological tour busses drive underneath it!

When water came into the city, the public fountains came first in distribution, and then the baths, and then the private homes. The most famous Roman Thermae or huge Baths left in ruins are the Baths of Caracalla (212 A.D. )

Reconstruction of the Baths of Caracalla: click to enlarge:

(capacity 1,600 bathers) and Diocletian(300 A.D.),

The Baths of Diocletian: click to enlarge:

(capacity 3,200 bathers) huge complexes of many acres, with tremendous mammoth vaults, hot rooms, cold rooms, saunas, warm rooms, gymnasiums, pools, the Super Gym of the ancient world.

The Baths of Diocletian were partly saved by Michelangelo, and are now the Basilica of Santa Maria degli Angeli. Michelangelo adapted the huge tepidarium (or warm room) of the Baths of Diocletian, the largest bath ever built in Rome, and thus can be visited today. This room is a jaw dropping experience, the vastness of the ancient vault is simply almost unimaginable

The warm rooms of the baths were achieved by means of hypocausts

hypocaust: click to enlarge

Here heating for a caldarium or hot room is shown. From the oven, hot air passed under a section of the pool, maintaining it at a constant temperature as a result of the convective flow typical of fluids, which means that cold water tends to fall and warm water to rise. The hot air was conveyed to the hypocaust (the cavity under the floor which was supported by pillars) and then rose to the vents on the roof, flowing through the brick pipes that entirely covered the wall s of the caldarium. (Ancient Rome) The floor was often too hot to walk on and bathers used wooden-soled clogs. Ruins of hypocausts can be found in every country the Romans occupied, here a model in France

hypocaust model: click to enlarge

showing how it worked. One of the best extant examples of hypocausts is in Bath, England.

One of the greatest contributions the ancient Romans made to the world was in the area of engineering, construction, and architecture, and their aqueducts, still seen in satellite photos of Africa, stand, aided by the detailed descriptions of them by Frontinus and Vitrivius, as monuments of achievement in the ancient world.

The Claudian Aqueduct, Rome: 2002: fabulous close up: click to enlarge!

I'm really torn as to which of those is my favorite photo, I lean towards the last one. When you stand under those "triumphant arches," as Goethe said, and actually put your hand on that thing, looking at the stones which have just FALLEN down out of it...it takes your breath away, think of the people who have seen it.

I will just say that many people visit Rome and Italy and are totally unaware of the aqueducts around them, but if you look hard at the top of some of the old arches in the walls (not triumphal arches) , you can see, in some cases, as many as three channels of the old aqueducts running across them. The Park of the Aqueducts was a well kept secret until a couple of years ago when the Architectural Tours began running out there, and they may stop, that would be a shame because most people don't even know (unless they see a quick glimpse of them from a train window) that they are there and they are INCREDIBLE structures which span a huge piece of time from 323 BC to today actually, one of them still works, with no mortar, just incredible engineering.

THANK YOU JOAN, I have enjoyed looking at all of them again, myself.

I am so appreciative of all of your fine points today, and hope to begin with them in the morning.

Happy 4th, Everybody!

Beautiful photos!!! thank you for sharing.

Amparo

Aquaducts.

It has come to mind my trip to Tunisia two years ago and on visiting the ancient city of Cartage (my dream since childhood) we were shown the water cisterns which used to hold the water carried from the aquaduct Zaghouan – Carthage, 132km in length, if I can read my notes right. We were able to see this aqueduct several times at different places while on Tunisia.

I also manage to get a picture of me with the roman column of ancient Carthage as my “hat” thanks to pure chance and optical illusion. However we are interested in aquaducts here…..

cheers.

Amparo

Piscina Mirabilis reservoir. Click thumbnails for larger image.

Wonderful Pictures, Ginny!!

The contrast between the rich & poor has been mentioned more than once, I think. There is another contrast: between those who exemplify the true Roman virtues and those who glorify themselves. Attilius and the Pliny's all are honest, courageous, lovers of Rome, dutiful (pius). These people represent both common and patrician Romans. THe selfish and egocentric include the wealthy ex-slave and some of the men in the engineer's work detail.

MAL: great link. The second picture, which shows the place where a spur branches off from the main aquaduct is especially interesting.

I bookmarked the home page, which has links to other interesting Archeology sites.

Mysteries:

1.The water supply blockage to the aqueduct.

2. Bigger problems lie at the base of Mount Vesuvius.

3. The disappearance of Marcus Attilus Primus's predecessor, Exomnius.

4. What did Corax know about the disappearance of Exomnius?

5. Why did Numerius Popidius Ampliatus want to kill Marcus?

6. Why did Corelia Ampliata seek out Marcus when she discovered the scrolls.

Pliny writes: "Nature has granted man no better gift than the shortness of life. The senses grow dull, the limbs are numb, sight, hearing, gait, even the teeth and alimentary organs die before we do, and yet this period is reckoned a portion of life."

What does he mean by this? Is he making a comment on the value of old age? Pliny was old and infirm at fifty-six. Since his time, the human life span has been extended by many years, and people can live healthy lives into their seventies and eighties. Pliny himself was still making an intellectual contribution even while his physical health was failing.

All of us, sooner or later, will reach the stage he is describing. Will we think of this period as a valuable portion of life? Will we all be as brave as Pliny and continue to contribute to society despite the waning of our physical abilities?

Pliny has great admiration for the young engineer, Attilius. He considers him to be the future of Rome and is eager to teach him "a few of the mysteries of nature." He is also eager to learn from the engineer. "Every month he discovered something new that required explanation." Pliny is a wonderful example of how to face the inevitable physical losses that come with aging while still making the most of this portion of life.

I haven't had a chance to finish this book yet, but from what I've read I decided that it would be nice if I had more background in Physics and Math. The vapors Attilius saw and Pliny's experiment with the wine made me come to this conclusion.

I see a juxtaposition of science and mythology in this novel. I can't remember what it is, but the eel story reminds me of something I've read in mythology. Scylla?

Mal

This is a book I have enjoyed for a number of reasons but more so because of what I am learning. I excuse myself from not delving into the whys and how aqueducts were built when I was younger, but now I am glad to have the opportunity to know just how they were built and the engineering and the knowledge needed to make them supply water to so many. Perhaps a book that is fiction can make learning more palatable? anna

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE PICTURES GINNY

Thank you all, I’m glad you enjoyed the photos, and the aqueduct information, as soon as SN’s inner workings allow it, I have many more that some of you have sent, to show you.

Let’s talk frankly a moment before we get to your excellent points, about book discussions, because this is going to be a rare one for us on SeniorNet Books.

We’ve been discussing books here on SeniorNet for 8 years, hundreds of books, but every book discussion is different, it’s a living thing, and this one will prove it’s the participants, YOU there in the circle, who will make it or break it.

I do know some of you are not finished the text and I apologize for “changing the rules,” on such short notice. Ordinarily we take the book in sections and look hard at each section, so it took you unawares.

One thing that always distinguishes our book discussions is our frankness. We are honest about the books we read, (it’s NOT a matter of “I liked it, I hated it,” that’s got its place, too), but we look hard at the book and say what we really think. Sometimes we cordially disagree, always with respect for the opinion of the other participants, who, after all, are just as entitled as we are.

When I say what I think, I learn from you, especially and hopefully if our opinions differ, and I come away enriched by your own additions and insights and perspectives.

Those are the best discussions!

Now this book, quite frankly, I have no idea how to discuss. I think to date my approach has been scattershot. I have tried to think WHY that is, I‘ve had no problem with any other book we’ve discussed, even the very bad (and there have been some) ones.

The book How to Read Literature Like a Professor is quite clear in saying that no story is a new one, every story is derivative, what does this present story harken back to or remind you of? I’ve drawn a blank.

I don’t normally read Historical Fiction, in fact, this is my first. (No I take it back, we did Michael Crighton’s Timeline and I hated it). I don’t know how to approach it, to ME and perhaps ME only, there is too much? Wonderful aqueducts, yes, wonderful information on Pompeii, yes, wonderful background on Pliny, yes, but WHAT IS THE BOOK ABOUT I ask myself and Myself is a bit slow to answer.

For instance, I am reading a lovely piece of trash, a real beach book, at the moment, in Candace Bushnell’s (she of Sex and the City and 4 Blondes) Trading Up which is, on the surface, lovely bits of the Beautiful People in the Hamptons? The Society marriages and what’s under the surface, the doings of the Rich and Famous (fictionalized) but that’s not what it’s ABOUT?

It’s ABOUT what it means to turn 40 and realize your life means nothing, you’ve accomplished nothing: it’s all dross. It’s ABOUT how everybody searches for something, everybody wants to MAKE A DIFFERENCE and BE somebody; it has universal truths. And it’s a tacky beach book?

So to me the Pompeii stuff, the Pliny stuff and the Aqueduct stuff, while wonderful, ARE what the book is about, would you say that’s so? Or not? If not, what IS it about?

I’m going to, when I get back today, erase the questions in the heading, add to them all the ones you’ve raised, put them on a questions page and link, and replace the heading with a single question: what is this book about? We have a plot, is there nothing under the plot? Is it a formula book? Have you read any others of his, is he following a pattern? Let’s talk frankly on what YOU saw in the book that the book was about?

Back later today on your wonderful contributions.

I don't think this is what the author meant, but to me the book was about the fact that in a real crisis all the stuff in our lives becomes just that: STUFF.

When the crisis hit, each person narrowed their view to the thing that was important to him. To the engineer, it was the person he cared about, as it was to the man who was searching for his wife. To Pliny, it was increasing knowledge. To one woman, it was preserving knowledge: remember she said it doesn't matter if we die, but the library must be saved. To the awful eel man (I'm impossible with names and too lazy to look them up) it was somehow making money out of the situation, and believing he was stronger than others and then the crisis.

The lives they had lived before forshadowed what they would do, but their everyday busy fussy stuff became irrelevant.

I have never been in a crisis likethat but, like everyone I suspect, often wondered what I would do, how I would act.

Yes Joan!
When disaster strikes and one is faced with catastrophic consequences the ordinary STUFF of life is no longer significant. Who bloody cares how much money, power or caps you’ve been blessed with when you are staring at your own with mortality and subsequent demise?
When you’re faced with a calamity such as a volcano burying you and your loved ones, you burrow into your soul and ask yourself, “what is important?”
Is it God, is it my fear of dying, is it that I shall no longer be able to see a sunset or a moon glow? Unfortunately these revelations come in various disguises other than a natural disaster. We are confronted with our own mortality through illness, a sudden death of a beloved child or spouse, infirmity or disease and when we meet them we respond in death much the same as we have in life. (IMO)
We are all but a foot print in the sands of time and if truth be told we would all probably react to what is in our inherent nature.

Pompeii is a story about life and man’s foibles. The powerful vs. those with integrity.

We encounter greed and avarice through Ampliatus who cared only about material wealth. Here was a man born into slavery and after being declared a free man still chose to be a crook, willing to steal the most essential thing- water -to support his whims. He is our villian who describes himself as “The God,” trying to rebuild Pompeii in his OWN IMAGE! Get over yourself fella. (I've met a few like him, haven't you?)

We meet Corax, the overseer who is filled with derision and mockery towards his boss. Jealousy rears its ugly head through him. (Yep, I've met him too.)

We meet the slaves who give of themselves without appreciation or kindness. Atillius is proud of his blood lines , practical and kind. He is our hero who has suffered grief as a young man.

Of course, we are treated to a love interest in this historical novel with the headstrong Corelia.

We meet the elected magistrates of Pompeii “The Board of Four” who depict shrewdness and self indulgence. Hmm--- we could be discussing modern day politics here, couldn’t we, as some things NEVER change. We see history repeat itself over and over either through literature or through human ignorance.

It’s a fine book to delve into the psyches of homo sapiens. That's what I think it's about-- all of us. You will have no problem Ginny getting a handle on this story, we're all living it.

I think there are two parts in this story. One is Man vs. Nature and the second is Good Men vs. Evil Men. First off Man if we are to live on this earth must learn to live in harmony with Mother Nature. But sometimes Mother Nature gives us more than we bargained for. Marcus Attilus shows us that by thinking clearing not only can we cope with what Mother Nature throws at us, but that we can learn from her.

The second point this book brings out is that even in the worst of times there will always be corrupt men and woman who will take advantage of the weak and helpless. One example of this type of person is Corelia's father. He rose from being a slave to being a freeman by his corruption during the earthquake of 63 AD and from the looks of it will only continue to profit. I can remember during the 1989 quake in California that I went to the grocery store to get some more bottle water and the Mom & Pop store at the cornor was selling the water for $10 a bottle (8oz) and flashlights for $25.00 a piece. I refused to buy either, but there were those who were forced to buy them because they didn't have bottle water or flashlights. We couldn't use our tap water for days after the earthquake nor did we have electricity. We got off easy. There were some we lost there homes.

How do you like the style of the writer? What do you think of the way he starts each chapter with the Time and than a small description of volcanos? Does having the time increase the suspense as it gets closer and closer to the disaster? How about the vocano explanations? Although I had to sit with a dictionary in my hand to figure out what he was taking about, I thought it added depth to the fiction.

Ginny, You said that "no story is a new one, every story is derivative. You asked, "What does this present story harken back to or remind you of?"

Well, in a broad sense, this follows the pattern of typical disaster plots; we have all read and seen many such stories about hurricanes, floods, fires in skyscrapers, forest fires, airplane crashes, and shipwrecks (Titanic). First, we meet an interesting cast of characters and become involved with them by finding out about their lives before they came together at this fateful place. Then we see how these characters act in the face of the imminent disaster (brave, cowardly, helpful, selfish, etc.). And finally, the impending disaster either takes place (as in "Pomoeii"), or sometimes is narrowly averted, and we find out who survived.

This particular disaster story is more well done than most, and, as several posters have mentioned, it teaches us a great deal about ancient Roman life and history. But it does follow the standard pattern--the reader knows the disaster is coming, while the characters do not. We meet the characters--Attilius, Ampliatus, Pliny, Corax, Pilates, Corelia, Popidius, even Exomnius--and learn about their past lives. Then we see how they behave as the disaster unfolds.

Woven through all this are threads of philosophy, either through the speech or thoughts of the characters, or by the narrator/author. As when Attilius sizes up Ampliatus--"First would come the gift, then the gift would turn out to be a loan, and then the loan would prove a debt impossible to pay back." Or when Pliny speaks about his opinion regarding an afterlife--"Neither body nor mind has any more sensation after death than it had before birth." But he still believes in a good death faced with bravery.

Ginny, You asked, "Is it a formula book?" I believe it is in many ways, but a very well-written one and an enjoyable, informative read.

Well a bright good morning to you all, what wonderful work you have done here and what super points. The madhouse which is Chez Anderson has temporarily ceased and I’m so enjoying what you all have contributed, and am SOOO grateful to have you to help us winnow thru this book. I saw Malryn put a quote from the book in another discussion and thought, that’s right, the book is FULL of great quotes and good writing and I hope you all will, from time to time, if you like, bring here a particular line which struck you personally. I have some, as well.

But first, but first, let’s look today at the super points you are raising!!

On what the book is ABOUT:

Joan K, several wonderful points to support the idea that the book “was about the fact that in a real crisis all the stuff in our lives becomes just that: STUFF.”

I love this, that has made me think.

All through the book, when things would get tough, Attilius was spurred by what?

Yes he loved aqueducts, but wasn’t it that his father had done it before him? And didn’t he feel that he had not to let him down?

I’m wondering now, reading Joan’s remark,” When the crisis hit, each person narrowed their view to the thing that was important to him. To the engineer, it was the person he cared about, as it was to the man who was searching for his wife,” what was the main crisis or turning point or climax of the story, the point at the story from which everything changed? What changed, for Attilius, and caused him to go look for Corelia?

So IS Harris actually saying…we all know people who do things because their fathers did them….or who have other, complicated motivations….if you think a minute, have you ever known anybody who was ensconced in who their father had been? Or what society EXPECTED? Was there anything else driving him also? So did he complete his duty, I’m trying to get at DID he fulfill his obligation before he went looking or after?

Another possible driving point for Atillius was “the Roman Way.” On page 155 you can see him saying, “ To confront the impossible: that was the Roman way!” Again on page 242 you can see a reference to “The Roman Way:”

”To vanquish fortune”—that was what a man should strive to do.

And on page 237 you can see Pliny shouting in a turmoil, “I expect every man to bear himself like a Roman soldier!” So we seem to have here a statement of Roman ideals, but how does that compare to our image of the insane Emperors?

And we’ve had people saying well it’s nice to read a positive book about the Romans. I’d like to talk about THAT too, in the next post? You can see another reference to The Roman Way again on page 158. Another on page 272: “Face it like a Roman.” Maybe Barbara will explain to us what this Roman Way was and maybe those of you in the Durant discussions who have waded through some of the more salient cruel memorials to the crazy emperors might want to discuss this: see next post.

Now that Joan has raised this excellent point, I’m wondering which of the characters embodied The Roman Way the most.

I loved your point on Pliny, Joan, among all those wonderful parallels. And that was quite striking, too. He WAS a man of science and had called out a liburnian (page 47) , when he heard the wife of his friend was attempting to save an entire library, he switched from a liburnian (do any of you know what type of boat that is?) to a trireme, I think (I wish the book were indexed). I do know what that is, that tri means three rows of oars. Harris also mentions quadriremes, as well, with 4 rows, and set out to save her. I’m thinking…well what do you think?

This was a change, in his character, I’m not sure what the author is saying here. What do YOU think? Are we saying that learning itself also is STUFF and discarded when the chips are down, I wonder?

I am struck by my admiration for Pliny. What do you all think, who is the strongest and most memorable character in this story? If you had to put Attilius against Pliny, who would YOU Pick?)

But here again, PLINY changed too? As Joan says, he turned aside to save his friend. That is very striking, and is definitely a theme in the story.

Thank you for that Joan, I also don’t know what I would do in a crisis…is it true that none of us do till it happens? The terrible 9/11 instances of true heroism. I often wonder when flying on a plane how many people I would stop and assist off the plane in a crash, do any of you ever have those kinds of thoughts?

While we are still on Pliny and his turning aside to save his friend and altruistically save the library (did it perish? Do we know anything of what happened to IT?) Here’s the passage on Pliny that worries me a bit? I mean, he was trying to save somebody ELSE, did he lie there alone? It’s not clear to me, is it to YOU all?

Page 272:

It was hard to br3eathe, or even to stand in the wind. The air was full of ash and grit and a terrible brilliance. He was choking, the pain across his chest was an iron band. He staggered backward.

Face it, don’t give in
Face it like a Roman.
The tide engulfed him.

[now a bit about the eruption, the air cleared, and then…] Pliny’s body was recovered from the beach….and carried back to Misenum…

That looks an awful lot to me as if he died alone? With no aid? What do you all think and what seems to be implied here as to the cause of death?

more!!!!.............

I am more than halfway through this book now. I believe SCRAWLER mentioned this, but I am struck with the huge effort human beings make to control nature and its reluctance to be leashed; this includes human nature.

The Pompeii I'm seeing through Harris's eyes is not the romantic one somebody put in my mind in the past. I find the book entertaining and easy to read for that reason.

Throughout the story is the basso continuo of the volcano. Suspense is building -- tremors of the earth and other omens that things are not right.

There's much to research in this novel, if one has the time. Is it written according to a formula? I don't really know because I'm not sure I know what formula writing is. Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, they get together again, that sort of thing? Since I've never read a book quite like this one before, I'm inclined to say it doesn't follow that, or any other pattern.

Mal

Salve, Malryn, we're posting together, I'll be back in a sec, am running behind.

As you all can see, I've changed the heading and am working on an HTML page of questions you've raised (and some of your answers) but first, let's take a look at this Roman Way.

What was your conception of the Romans and the Roman Way before reading THIS book and has THIS book changed that, at all?

Were you at all surprised to find Pompeii, the town, characterized as it is?

People are always comparing Ancient Rome to America, do you think that's a valid comparison?

Let's talk about The Roman Way today a bit also, if you like?

Andrea, great point, what IS important, after all? And you mention “is it God?” Did you all happen to notice a sub theme of lack of respect for religion running thru young Atillius? I kind of hoped that might be resolved, another sub theme, WAS it resolved? AHA so Andrea sees Pompeii is a story about life and man’s foibles. The powerful vs. those with integrity. Barbara mentioned a conflict, too, so now Andrea, when you say “the powerful vs. those with integrity,” are you saying the powerful don’t have integrity????? Or that only those who are not powerful HAVE integrity? Has Harris made that point? Is he trying to make such a point in Ampliatus, as you mention? Ampliatus is a villain but wasn’t he the villain as a slave?

Super discussion point on power and integrity, what do the rest of you think? Does power always ALWAYS corrupt?

Well said, Scrawler, “I think there are two parts in this story. One is Man vs. Nature and the second is Good Men vs. Evil Men.”. Oh wonderful point on your trip to the store and the $25.00 flashlights.

We have to remember, when we think of the Romans, what a period of history we’re talking about. 753 BC to 476 AD and those dates may be too narrow.

We’re talking about people who we only know through the few writings that are left to us, some from the pens of hopeless gossips like Suetonius, or the archaeological remains we can figure out. When you think of that length of time, it has always seemed strange, to me, to hone in on Suetonius or a few nutsy Emperors and try to brand the entire civilization of more than 1,200 years (America is only 200+ years old) as “cruel” or otherwise insane.

Think on the times: when Julius Caesar went to England, he found our ancestors painting themselves blue and hunching around a fire, and throwing rocks. THAT is what Caesar found and he wrote about it. The French, Germans, Swiss, and most of the known Western world were in a state of little more than grunting iron age savages when Cicero wrote his incredible philosophical treatises.

Look at it this way: Suppose 2,000 years from now after the big bang, archaeologists begin figuring US out? What are they going to surmise? Bull fights? Cock fights? Dog fights? The Joel Steinbergs of the world? Tongue piercing? The Jim Jones of the world?

One thing that is different is we have SO much press, SO much trash printed that we can winnow thru it.

Have any of you read David Macaulay’s (the guy who does the big architectural renderings books?) Motel of the Mysteries? If you have not, don’t miss it, it’s short and hilarious, about what future archaeologists would make of US and it’s a riot.

Are you seeing any attempt in parallels in culture in this thing?

Scrawler mentions the style of the writer and the juxtaposition of the volcanic materials with the action, thank you for answering that question, too. Did you notice (I did) that the closer he got to the actual explosion the shorter the explanation got? I thought, he’s leading up to the climax! Even the explanations are getting more short and breathless, but suddenly the descriptions got longer.

I had no idea what he was saying, Anne, but I noticed the effect. The contrast. And personally, to me, when I begin to notice the author’s technique then to me, it becomes a bit artificial, but I thought this time, it was a very effective device, along with the counting down of the hours of the day, the clock always running, and nature out there doing its thing, and poor MAN running around with his affairs, what a contrast, thank you for pointing those instances out!

So Anne (Scrawler) sees two more things the book is about, what about YOU all?

Good versus evil, I wonder if we made a chart who would fall where?

Are the characters that well defined? Or not?

Super points, Anne!

Talking about Romans, as most of you know I just came back from what constituted in the Roman's day Cisalpine and Transalpine Gaul, (not to mention Rome itself), and in Koln, Germany, in their fine Roman Museum, I found several proofs that the ancients regarded the Romans highly, even during the time of the Emperors.

I took for you photos of a tombstone of a freedman, who was so proud of his Roman citizenship (and he a German originally ) that he had it put on his tombstone. The top of the tombstone pointed to his Roman citizenship of which he was VERY proud, the bottom of it showed the boat he had previously served on: one of many I took photos of (but the chips were stolen, no matter, I have one from Italy to put up in a minute). If the Romans were so awful, so cruel and dissolute, so disgusting, all of them, then why did the Barbaraians who finally conquered Rome and deposed the last Roman Emperor (have any of you noticed the eerie name of the last Roman Emperor?) put on togas, walk to the Forum, and want to be part of the Roman Senate? It's perhaps a little known fact that the Barbaraians tried to keep Rome going AS Rome?

Rome and the Roman Way stood for a LOT in the ancient world, it's important not to be derailed by some of the more salient reports extant.

But what do YOU think?

now let me shut up for a minute haahah and let somebody else talk about all these fine points raised this morning. I'll work on the heading in the meantime and the questions page and come back in and see what points you all would like to make here before I keep on monopolizing the conversation, so GOOD to be back and to be talking Rome again, let's hear from you!!

I should emphasis "THE" ..from my memories of lessons while in school Italy and ROME encompassed ALL of the civilized world at the time we speak. Our language is still based on the roots of their language. I cant give any examples but if my memory serves me well ..many laws the world uses now were based on Roman laws. Romans conquerers carried with them civilization as we now know it ..

And it seems I recall it was marauding Barbarians that threw us backwards ...which is sort of scary ..we consider a large part of the world civilized ..but we also have a large number of people who are threatening that..and it seems to me when Romans became as uncivilized as the barbarians was when the GLORY that was Rome became no more. Wish I had the time to research my thinking ..it is just the lasting impression I have from my memories of both lessons and extensive reading over the years.

This book ..one I like knowing how things work so the explanations of how the aqueducts were able to deliver the enormous amount of water I find fascinating. The impending doom of what was very advanced communities holds my attention. And are we any better. We hear warnings all the time..ie the effects of global warning, the loss of tropical forests , the spread of AIDS, the worry now of SARS and even the possibility of some strain of influenza ..like the one that swept across the world in 1918 ..are we as a whole worrying about these things? Do we take them seriously? Arent we sort of crossing our fingers hoping that they wont occur? We are so dependent on electicity and modern technology ..do we ever consider the chaos that would occur if it failed?

What I am saying ..Rome was an advanced civilization..the artifacts, the uncovering of a city and an understanding of the people of that time..the wealth , the library, all the signs of an advanced civilization ..and yet it too succumbed.

The author is reminding us that we are at risk as well as Pompeii. There is no Vesuvius looming over us.. but we know earthquakes can happen ..and the whole world is at risk there. The ice packs are melting..the hurricane last fall here in Virginia devasted areas that have always been too low..and yet people are rebuilding there ..and these are areas that any storm coming from the sea always floods...and they have to evacuate. What I see ..people become confident in thier knowledge, in their homes , in thier businesses , in what they percieve as an advanced civilization they cant see how what they have can possibly be lost.

And when it does then and only then do we realize what was lost was only "STUFF" Just thinking ..anna

"The natural instinct of men is to follow, and whoever has the strongest sense of purpose will always dominate the rest." Page 262, large font hardcover edition.

Attilius thinks about Thesius and the labyrinth.

Theseus and the labyrinth

"During the late Bronze Age, well over a millennium before the birth of Christ, the Minoan King on Crete held the Athenian king to ransom. Every nine years the Athenian king sent as tribute seven male youths and a like number female virgins, the cream of Athenian society, to Knossos on Crete. Once on Crete the Athenian youths were fed into the dark heart of the gigantic Labyrinth, there to die at the hands of the dreaded Minotaur Asterion, unnatural son of the Minoan King’s wife and a bull.

"One year the Athenian king sent his own son Theseus as part of the sacrifice. Theseus was determined finally to stop the slaughter, and to this end he was aided by Ariadne, daughter of the Minoan king, half-sister to Asterion and Mistress (or High Priestess) of the Labyrinth. Ariadne shared with Theseus the secrets and mysteries of the Labyrinth, and taught him the means by which Asterion might be killed. This she did because she loved Theseus.

"Theseus entered the Labyrinth, and, aided by Ariadne’s secret magic, bested the tricks of the Labyrinth and killed Asterion in combat. Then, accompanied by Ariadne and her younger sister Phaedre, Theseus departed Crete and its shattered Labyrinth for his home city of Athens. However, on the voyage back to Athens Theseus had a dream in which the Gods told him Adriene was meant for other things than to be his wife, and so Theseus abandoned a distraught Adriene on an island. (In other version of the legend, Theseus threw Adriene over for her younger sister, Phaedra.)

"It was a poor reward for aiding Theseus. Betrayal rewarded with betrayal, perhaps.

How does this relate to Attilius's finding the blockage in the aqueduct and fixing it?

On Page 287 Ampliatus tells the porter the secret of a happy life is "To die, and then to come back to life, and relish every day as a victory over the gods." I thought that was interesting.

Mal

This is a great discussion!

During the early empire, some Romans liked to think back to the “good old days” of the Republic; they liked to believe that people behaved better in earlier times. The long list of traditional Roman virtues includes dignitas, clementia, firmitas, frugalitas, honestas, humanitas, industria, pietas, veritas…. (see www.novaroma.org/via_romana/virtues.html for a more complete list). An “ideal” man was, in this view, hard working, honest, respectful of tradition, and stoic; these were the virtues that Harris attributed to Attilius. (This is in contrast to some of the heroes of Greek mythology such as Odysseus, renowned for wiliness.)

Some fiction writers portray all Romans as uniformly cruel, corrupt and self indulgent – and some of them certainly were. I was pleased to see that Harris had some Roman characters with courage and integrity; then, as now, the world had both good and evil people in it. His characters did tend to be one-sided: Attilius was all good and Ampliatus was entirely evil. It was certainly plain immediately who the villains were… no surprises there.

In general, the description of life in Pompeii provided by Harris is similar to my understanding of it (based on three visits, more than a hundred source books, and writing my own novel set in that time and place). He chose to focus on the seamy side of life; my story was about household life in generally more positive circumstances several years earlier. The description of Pompeii as a town that had been taken over by hustling, new-rich developers in the wake of the last major earthquake is consistent with a lot of historical evidence; many large houses were subdivided into apartments and shops or turned into businesses, and many large public buildings had not been repaired or rebuilt by the time Vesuvius erupted. It was, indeed, a town of commerce and politics, with industries such as the production of garum (fermented fish sauce, a widely used condiment), woolens, olive oil, and perfume, among other things.

I think there’s a tendency to misinterpret some things…. Many visitors notice the large number of phallic images in Pompeii and assume that means all of the people were obsessed with sex, but many of those images served mainly as good luck and prosperity symbols (something like a horseshoe or a hex sign on a barn). One building excavated early on had large phallic images on the outside and people assumed it was a brothel: it turned out to be a bakery.

For dramatic purposes, Harris emphasized the creepy, gritty, unpleasant aspects of Pompeii, but I think that for some wealthy people, life in those garden courtyard houses could have been quite pleasant. In terms of amenities such as plumbing and architecture, wealthy Romans enjoyed a standard of living that was not matched for many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire.

The treatment of slaves varied enormously during ancient Rome; a few favored slaves were set free and became wealthy (like Ampliatus), and many other freed slaves set up modest businesses. On the other hand, work on the industrial-scale farms and in the mines involved abuse, malnutrition, an iron slave collar, and premature death.

Most of the historical details Harris incorporated into his story were accurate: there really were people named Holconius, Popidius, and Africanus; a freedman really did use the reconstruction of the Temple of Isis as a means to get his six year old son a seat on the town council. (This is known from an inscription on the temple… wealthy patrons who built temples or public baths invariably put inscriptions on them to let the public know whose work it was, along the lines of “I, Marcus Holconius, built this temple on my own lands and with my own money…”)

Harris got a one very minor thing wrong. The Roman week during that time had 8 days (denoted on stone calendars by letters A through H). The seven day week did not become standard in Rome until a little after A. D. 300.

Another thing… in the story Ampliatus is building a public bath to make a lot of money. The public baths were generally built by politicians and town leaders who needed to increase their “dignitas” and win votes; the cost of admission to the baths was usually so low that even slaves could go, and during some periods of time free bath admission was one of the things the rich gave away to win support. So it is not likely that a public bath could be a major source of income. I suspect that Roman residents would have been as indignant about paying high prices for a bath, as being charged admission to the games!

I always wonder, too, in action/ suspense stories… why does the villain hang on to the incriminating evidence (in this case, the scrolls) instead of immediately destroying it? (The answer, of course, is so that the hero can get his hands on it.)

How did Harris create suspense? I’ve been trying to figure that out. There are foreshadowings of the eruption very early (Attilius has the taste of ash in his mouth within the first few pages). The quotations about seismology and volcanology remind readers periodically about what is happening underneath the earth as the characters go about their business unaware. The time count down (like the clock in “High Noon”) reminds us often how little time remains, and there is also time urgency about other things, such as the need to repair the acqueduct before the water begins to flow through it again. The language is fairly “spare”, that is, simple sentences that allow the reader to move quickly. Even though we know that the conclusion involves an eruption that will bury the town, we don’t know (although it’s fairly easy to guess….) the fates of individual characters. The description of the events during the eruption is believably detailed, but it was even worse than he described. One expert interviewed on PBS said that during the pyroclastic flows (superheated air moving at high speed), many people were blown to pieces by flying debris, and that blood would boil and skulls would explode at such extreme temperatures. Those who found indoor hiding places often suffocated. I wonder if the escape method described by Harris would have worked, under the circumstances?

One last note in an already too-long post… (I could go on about ancient Rome all day and all night with intervals for refreshments, alas)… The writings of Tacitus, the Elder Pliny, and the Younger Pliny make more entertaining reading than you might expect… in Pliny’s Natural Histories, I particularly enjoyed his description of an elephant that (allegedly) could write Greek. Herodotus is great too, with stories about “gold-digging ants” and such…

Throug out history there has always been one or two groups always in "control" so to speak. At this time in history it is the Romans. When you stop and think about it, it really is astounding how much the Romans accomplished and once more many of their accomplishments such as engineering fetes are still standing today.

Yes, the Romans were at times cruel and brutal, but where they any different than say the Babarians toward the Romans. And history goes on and on. One thing I think people tend to compare the Romans with the United States is that both peoples tried to take control over the countries they conquered. The Americans did it in 1915 when we took over the Philliphines after the Spanish-American War. Not all Roman emperors were mad just as all American presidents were mad.

In the beginning Julius Caesar allowed the conquered people to worship their own religions and he respected the soldiers of these conquered countries - he gave them a choice. He even forgave some of his would be enemies. It is not until later on with the emperors intermarrying that you get the cruel despotes that wanted the counquered people like the Jews to worship the Roman gods.

We Americans tend to go into a country and attempt to make over the countries into our image. I hate to say this but democracy is not for everyone and it takes a long time to be able to gain knowlege enough to make choices in government. Not everyone can do that. I was thinking of many Europeans that during the beginning of the last century chose to go make to their native lands and live under Communist rule rather than live in our country. So we, Americans, do have something in comon, but that all with the Romans.

Now back to Pompeii, here we see where the Romans tried to control the people, but it most cases they were free to live as they wished as long as they paid homage to the Romans. An example of this is the rise of Corelia's father from slave to freedman. There are other examples of this Roman control throughout the book. Another example of control was Corelia's father not only over his daughter, son, and wife, but also the politicians.

There is also a discussion going on in "The Story of Civilization" about comparing another civilization to ours.

Remember, the civilization of Rome lasted many hundreds of years and changed many times during that period. Without going back to look in more detail. I remember that at one time the Roman way was very important to Rome: a kind of equivelant of our protestant ethic emphasizing bravery, dealing with adversity etc. As Rome became more prosperous, this eroded, and there was more emphasis on money, and pleasure and more corruption. The Republic government decayed, and in a period of chaotic civil war, Augustus restored order by basically abolishing all remaining democracy, and replacing it with complete power of the Emporer. The result was initially a period of prosperity under his rule, but after his death a series of incompetant, cruel, even insane rulers (like Nero).

We see in the engineer and Pliny people who still strongly believed and lived by the old values, and in the eel-man someone who reflected the mores of the upper class of his time.

The value contrast is one between an older value system of stoicism and one of epicureanism. Both were taken from the Greeks and reinterpreted by the Romans. The original epicureanism was not a philosophy of simply putting pleasure first, but many Romans interpreted it that way.

This is very simplistic: Mal will shoot me down if she reads this. When I have time, I'll look through Durant for a more accurate statement.

GINNY: you comment that the main character in the book does not turn to religeon in time of need. Many of the other characters do, in their insistance on sacrificing to the gods.

Like philosophy, the Roman religeon at that time had become corrupt and decadent. It was openly used by those in power to justify whatever they wanted to do, and the priests were completely corrupt, finding "omens" to prove whatever the person who paid them the most wanted. Thus, intellegent men like Pliny and the engineer had presumably ceased to believe in it.

79 bce was so early in the spread of Christianity, that probably none of the characters would have heard of it. It would still be limited to a few Jewish sects.

A map showing Mt. Vesuvius, Pompeii, Herculaneum, etc.

Lately I haven't been able to commit to posting in a discussion, for one reason or another. However, since I recommended this book for the discussion I do want to answer part of Ginny's questions:

Has anyone read other books by Harris? What else has he written?

After initially reading Pompeii, I read other books by Harris because I wanted to understand what he was saying and try to figure out his point of view.

Harris is a political columnist. This is different from a journalist in that a columnist or commentator expresses personal opinions. While a good journalist searches out and presents all the facts and tells a story, a good columnist presents his/her argument using facts that support the argument. The political writings of Art Buchwald and William F. Buckley, although different from one another, represent those of columnists.

When Harris turned to fiction, after years as a political columnist, he began writing contemporary political thrillers.

Fatherland, his first political thriller, is based on the alternative history that Hitler won WWII and the consequences of that dictatorship. Another political thriller, Archangel, is set in post-Soviet Russia where Stalin's secret papers, including a notebook, are found to exist.

Harris' thrillers bring history into the present and they critique a world power.

Marvelle

Thank you, Malryn, for that neat colorful map!

Marvelle! WELCOME, WELCOME! Thank you for that look at Harris the author, and a good analysis of the thriller genre (is this book a thriller)? That might give a new slant to the quotes he begins the book with, which I've asked about in the next post. Would you mind posting some of the links you have found to articles on him, they are quite interesting! And WELCOME!

Amparo has been kind enough to send us photos of Carthage, so we can see Roman ruins in Africa. You recall Carthage was not only burned to the ground, they sowed salt in it after Hannibal was defeated, I did not realize…was there a NEW Carthage? You CAN see ruins here, take a peek:

The Roman Ruins of Carthage, Africa

Amparo is wearing a Roman column!! ahahah (Don't you wish you looked like HER?) Jeepers, you will never see one of MOI! Hahahaah Again I did not realize they had such things remaining, we must look up Carthage, New Carthage?

Amparo identifies this as a "ancient Carthage's water cistern which used to store water.."

Thank you very much Amparo, for those wonderful photos.

REBECCA!!!! I'm going to say this to YOU, THAT was some kind of post! Yes yes YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS yes. But now on the Roman week?!?! 8 days? Do you think he meant to include the Nundinae? And just left it off? I was kind of taken aback by his names for the days and thought, huh?

Well done! You HAVE done a lot of reading! Where can we read more about the names of the days of the week? I am still somewhat unsure and can't find anything that backs him up?

Mistakes? Thermae?? You are also absolutely right on the price of entrance into a public bath (did you all know the earliest public baths were FOUND at Pompeii? And date from the 1st century BC?)

The public baths were intended, at first, FOR the poor, but soon became used by all classes. Entrance was obtained by the quadrans in Roman money as Rebecca said, the "smallest piece of coined money, virtually worthless." (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature).

(I found a mistake, too, in grammar, on page 5. Did any of you see it??

I'm not going to tell what it IS?) Hahahaha

HO what a post, Rebecca. Loved your analysis of how the author built up suspense!!

You said, "I think that for some wealthy people, life in those garden courtyard houses could have been quite pleasant" Oh yeah I totally agree, I wish I had one and you're also dead right on the standard of living of the wealthy.

THIS was fabulous "The description of Pompeii as a town that had been taken over by hustling, new-rich developers in the wake of the last major earthquake is consistent with a lot of historical evidence; many large houses were subdivided into apartments and shops or turned into businesses, and many large public buildings had not been repaired or rebuilt by the time Vesuvius erupted. It was, indeed, a town of commerce and politics, with industries such as the production of garum (fermented fish sauce, a widely used condiment), woolens, olive oil, and perfume, among other things."

I was not really aware of the nature of Pompeii, until this book, and am glad to see you confirm it, but you are right on, with this one…"…. Many visitors notice the large number of phallic images in Pompeii and assume that means all of the people were obsessed with sex, " you make an important point there, also, people who see some of the special houses, do come away with the wrong impression.

Here's a funny story, and it's true…Once a colleague who went to Italy for research told me about a farmer he was staying with there, who had found while digging a storage bin, a huge room painted all over with what appeared to be ancient Roman frescoes of the most suggestive kind. An INCREDIBLE find, the group was electrified when he casually mentioned it and they all trooped down in wonder. The academics visiting him were ecstatic and, as their trip was ending, made big plans to return, examine, study, maybe write about, and devour privately, and swore the farmer to secrecy. When they returned and went down into the storage bin all excited and prepared, they found the walls whitewashed and bare white. Stunned, they said, but what has happened? The farmer explained proudly how he had scraped and washed and finally gotten those "dirty pictures" off, and whitewashed the entire room: he did not want those "dirty pictures" on his property!

hahahaha more...

But now on the…what is it called, the fire storm you say scientists describe, Rebecca? Were they talking about Pompeii? I seem to remember something on television about that? A some kind of pyroclastic thing? The blood boiling and the brains bursting, etc., did that happen in Herculaneum or Pompeii? I have not been clear on that? If it had happened in Pompeii, how did only 2,000 of the 20,000 die?

And I agree about this one, "I wonder if the escape method described by Harris would have worked, under the circumstances?"

THANK you for that fascinatingly interesting post, we may have to read YOUR book!!

(Are you going to tell us the true origins of the story of the eels?)

Now THIS is a super point: always wonder, too, in action/ suspense stories… why does the villain hang on to the incriminating evidence (in this case, the scrolls) instead of immediately destroying it? (The answer, of course, is so that the hero can get his hands on it.) hahaa I ALWAYS wondered in those old horror movies? Why the heroine, who hears a noise when she's alone in the house? ALWAYS takes the candle up and starts down the stairs alone? ALWAYS? Listen if I were alone in a house and heard a noise, you'd have to pry me out of the bed, forget the guttering candles. Ahahahah

Excellent points, Scrawler, on the comparisons between America and Ancient Rome, and on control. You make excellent points on the Roman Civilization.

What do all of you make of the three quotes which begin the book? One on America by Tom Wolfe, one by Pliny on the pre-eminence of Italy, and one by Trevor Hodge on the necessity of respect for the aqueducts of ancient Rome, which, “in the first century AD, supplied the city of Rome with substantially more water than was supplied in 1985 to New York City.”

What bearing have these three quotes to each other or the story? The Aqua Augusta did not supply Rome? Actually it was not an aqueduct of Pompeii, either, was it? Wasn’t it reached by a spur?

We need to know more about this aqueduct! Till I read this book I had never heard of it!

Joan, thank you for that background on religion and the Romans! I think the Roman attitude toward religion is fascinating, the letters of Pliny to Trajan alone on what he should do about the Christians are very instructive. When you read The Iliad, written by Homer in Greek, so many years before the Romans, you can see some pretty capricious gods, it’s a miracle that any of the ancients managed to combine religion with morality and patriotism as well as they did, I think? Fascinating topic.

I am interested in hearing more about what you all think the Romans thought about Religion, I was wondering if Harris had another reason there, also, in making Attilius so bitter about it?

We also wondered aloud earlier if anybody knew how far the ash went and in which direction and how far the lava went when Vesuvius erupted, and, mirabile dictu, LOOK at this! From the very end of the Latin 101 text (which I just saw) (which is ON Pompeii), here is a map showing those very things, that is a LOOONG way for that lava and mud to go to get to Herculaneum!!!

Map Showing Distribution of Ash and Lava from Vesuvius, 79 AD.

I got up this morning thiking about Ancient Rome and the Romans. When you walk thru the ancient Forum even in 2004, with the rest of the world, "gawping" as Harris said, at the sheer magnificence of even the tattered ruins of it: the height of the arches, the basilicas, the porticoes, you become a peasant going down one of the roads which leads to Rome, yourself.

Augustus said he found a city of brick and left one of marble, it's almost hard to imagine what that would have looked like, but when you picture YOURSELF there in Ancient Rome, don't you picture yourself sort of as you are now? In other words, it wouldn't be YOU and me standing by the side of the road holding out a hand and crying "Increase the dole," would it? WE wouldn't be the slaves!! (Would we?) How would you envision YOURSELF, if you were suddenly transported back to Ancient Rome, say, in the early days of Augustus?

In response to your questions, Ginny:

About the incident with the eels:

Pliny the Elder wrote in his Natural History (cited in Jo-Ann Shelton, 1998, “As the Romans Did”, p. 174): “Vedius Pollio, a Roman equestrian, a friend of the Emperor Augustus, found that lamprey eels offered him an opportunity to display his cruelty. He used to toss slaves sentenced to death into ponds of lampreys, not because wild animals on land were not capable of killing a slave, but because with any other type of animal he was not able to enjoy the sight of a man being torn to pieces completely, in one moment”. Shelton adds: Once when Augustus was visiting at his home, Vedius Pollio ordered a slave who had broken a glass to be thrown to the eels. Augustus protested that this punishment was far too severe. He ordered Pollio’s slave to be set free, all his glasses to be broken, and the pond to be filled in.”

Although there were many instances of extreme cruelty to slaves, some masters (for example, Pliny the Younger, who made an appearance in the Harris novel) treated slaves more humanely.

About the nature of the eruption…

Just as Harris describes, the initial stage of the eruption resulted in falling pumice – many people fled the city at this point. The eruption went through several different phases (see http://urban.arch.virginia.edu/struct/pompeii/volcanic.html for a more complete description, and a nice animation of the early stage of the eruption, the rising column that Pliny described as resembling an umbrella pine tree, at http://www.harcourtschool.com/activity/pompeii/pmpErup.html ).

Some people probably died in the early stages of the eruption because of collapsing roofs; some were struck by volcanic rock; some suffocated. For some, however, this stage was survivable, and there was still time to flee. Those who did not flee the city during the early stages of the eruption, or who returned to look for loved ones or to retrieve possessions, most likely died when the column of superheated air and rock and ash collapsed and surged down the side of the volcano in the direction of Pompeii. It is thought that most of the residents of Pompeii (its total population has been variously estimated at 12,000 to 20,000 people) escaped, and that at least 5000 died in Pompeii and Herculaneum and surrounding areas -- but these are just rough estimates.

From another web site, a more precise explanation of pyroclastic flow, the last stage of the eruption that Harris described so well: http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/p/py/pyroclastic_flow.html

“Pyroclastic flows are a common and devastating result of some volcanic eruptions. They are fast moving fluidized bodies of hot gas, ash and rock (collectively known as tephra) which can travel away from the vent at up to 150 km/h. The gas is usually at a temperature of 100-800 degrees Celsius. The flows normally hug the ground and travel downhill under gravity, their speed depending upon the gradient of the slope and the size of the flow. Volumes range from a few hundred cubic metres to more than a thousand cubic kilometres, and the larger ones can travel for hundreds of kilometre although none have occurred for several hundred thousand years. Most flows are around one to ten cubic kilometres and travel for several kilometres. Flows usually consist of two parts - the basal flow hugs the ground and contains larger, coarse boulders and rock fragments, whilst an ash cloud rises above it because of the turbulence between the flow and the overlying air. Whilst moving, the kinetic energy of the boulders will flatten trees and buildings in their path. The hot gases and high speed make them particularly lethal. For example, the towns of Pompeii and Herculaneum in Italy were famously engulfed by them in 79 with heavy loss of life; and in June 1997 flows killed 20 people on the Caribbean island of Montserrat.”

I thought that the way Harris described the experiences of people during these events was extremely vivid, and probably quite accur

That's exactly what my novel was about... what experiences would a modern woman be likely to have if she were stranded in first century Rome? I think the most likely fate would be slavery (with bad luck, in a mine or on a farm, with good luck, in a household where the master was reasonably humane in his treatment of slaves).

My novel is "A. D. 62: Pompeii" and it's available at Amazon.

"Rebecca East is the pen name for a university professor who has traveled extensively, consulted for international organizations, worked on an archaeological dig, and taught for Semester at Sea."

Source:
Review of A. D. 62: Pompeii by Rebecca East at www.amazon.com

Though I appreciate all the information offered here, it's a little hard not to feel intimidated in this discussion by those of you who have traveled in Italy and been in Pompeii, or who have done extensive research on this ancient city and the history and ways of Rome.

For people like me, who have never set foot on Italian soil, despite having studied Italian for quite a long time and having had the business trip to Italy in 1975 (in which I was included) cancelled by the corporation for which my husband worked, analysis of this book by me is by guess and by gorry just as it is with other novels discussed here in Books and Lit.

I finished reading this book last night and am left wondering why you, GINNY, decided to discuss it as a whole? I have found things on every other page, it seems like, that require research in order to be fully understood. That takes time and slow study.

My copy of Middlesex is with my daughter, so I can't refer to it at this moment, but the rush of undisciplined mobs of people to escape the fires the Turks started at that city in Greece came to my mind when I read of people fleeing Pompeii. I also had vivid memories of the scenes on television on September 11, 2001 of people running away from the Twin Towers in New York. The instinct for survival is very, very strong in times of crises like these, so strong that it makes no difference on whom you trample, or even kill, in order to get away and save your skin. Our hero was a bit rash when he ran the other way.

I see Exominius's reason for holding onto incriminating papyrus scrolls as means for future blackmail. Why shouldn't he be rich like Ampliatus?

Sure, developers moved in on Pompeii after the earthquake. Didn't they do the same in Florida after Hurricane David? Such avaricious behavior hasn't changed.

What would I be in Pompeii if I'd lived there? Dead, probably. I haven't read much about how people in the Roman Empire treated handicapped and disabled people. I do know from bas reliefs I've seen that polio was around at that time. If I'd been in Pompeii when Vesuvius erupted, I wouldn't have stood a chance.

Mal

Wow, Ginny and I were thinking alike. She's referred twice in the last couple of posts to the preface quotes. It was the first indication to me when I initially read Pompeii that something was up and so we know that Harris was playing 'fair' by planting those quotes in the very beginning of his book.

Independent interview of Robert Harris

Sunday Business Post Interview of Robert Harris

Marvelle

From an author interview in The Bookseller by Benedicte Page, 23 May 2003:

"Robert Harris says it was a news report in the Telegraph three years ago which prompted the idea for Pompeii. Challenging the usual version which supposes that everyone in Pompeii died instantly when Vesuvius exploded, new findings proved that the story was much more complex and extended. The new scenario offered material for Harris, who until this point had been hoping to write a novel set in modern day America."

[Harris quote:] 'Because it didn't all end instantly, there were choices to be made - people could stay in the city, or leave and then come back because they thought the worst was over.' [end Harris quote]

"...he knew that the water had failed a few days before the volcano went up. . . . Harris is also alert to a broader political theme - Roman water supplies were a symbol of empire. He found that the workings of ancient Rome kept bringing him back to the modern day parallel superpower - America."

[Harris quote:] 'The Romans learned how to move water long distances. It meant they could build cities anywhere. In the first century AD the citizens of Rome had more water per head than the citizens of New York do today. I had the idea of a dominant world power in the back of my mind, and of how long it might last, and of hubris, because in the end all empires and civilisations pass away. And it suddenly struck me that Rome might be the best way to write about America - because they thought they were the last word, the Romans, and that nothing would ever come along that would be better.' [end quote]

"There were other resonances: the incredible luxury that existed on the Bay of Naples in the Roman era, 'very like Palm Beach or Malibu' or the dynamic society in which, as in America, there was the idea that people could rise up by their own efforts. The character of Ampliatus - the freed slave who has made his money from shady property deals - displays his wealth with all the ostentation of the nouveaux riche."

[Harris quote] 'We tend to forget this, but a lot of the very richest people in the Roman Empire were freed slaves. Pompeii was a sort of boom town, there was a lot of new money and reconstruction .... Ampliatus gave me the opportunity to write about the drive and dynamic that kept Roman society alive. The Romans kept a regular injection of new blood but not to the extent that the society could destabilise. He also has to live through his son because he can't vote, much in the way that an immigrant in the US can't vote but his child can.' [end quote]

The above is from a Robert Harris interview in The Bookseller by Benedicte Page, 23 May 2003

_______________________________________________________

Another article about the author's search for a setting for his book on the US

Taipei Times on Robert Harris & Mickey Mouse

__________________________________________

Marvelle

. . . Southern California, make sure to take in the J. Paul Getty Museum in Malibu, California. It is a replica of one of the villas in ancient Herculaneum which was unearthed by archeologists, with marble dug from the same pits. The entrance alone has over 20 different colors of marble, all inlaid in various patterns.

I believe the villa is being renovated and won't re-open until 2005. One also needs to call for a reservation, although admission is free. The reservation is simply because parking is very limited on this steep hillside. After renovation it will contain the collection of Roman antiquities, whereas the rest of the art work has been removed to the new museum. It is quite a collection, including much ancient Greek statuary and pottery.

The villa sits on a hilltop in Malibu and is a perfect setting, with a view of the ocean, just as it might have sat on a hillside in Herculaneum. What surprised me the most was the bedrooms. They were tiny, just cells with a platform on which a person slept. They apparently took their sleeping very seriously and had no accoutrements in those cells, such as closets or dressing rooms or even other furniture. The gardens are exquisite and there is an herb garden where the sorts of herbs are grown that might have been part of a Roman household. The reflecting pool at the entrance is just that, a shallow reflecting pool, which is lit at night and gorgeous. Not a shabby way to live at all, but I can see where it took slave labor just to take care of a place such as this in ancient times.

There is also a small restaurant where one can dine afresco under a starry mural on the patio ceiling in the colors that were popular in ancient Rome. It is well worth a look.

Here is a site for further info and a photograph: http://raven.cybercomm.net/~lynn/jp_getty.html

PS: This is one of those places in So. Calif that I still miss. I used to drive there for an afternoon and sit and sketch, and then take another few hours to go just down the highway to the Serra Retreat House, which also sat on the hillside with an ocean view and beautiful gardens. That used to be a tile factory before the Catholic Church bought it as a retreat house, and so the whole place had this beautiful colored tile everywhere, especially on the risers of stairways, so that when one stood at the bottom of the stairs one got this wonderful view of all the color and patterns of the tile. Twice a year or so they ask for volunteers to help out in the garden. What fun! The plants are GORGEOUS!!! Another place worth visiting, and it's also free. Here is a site: http://www.sbfranciscans.org/communities/retreats/serra/

One of the pages on Rebecca East's website contains some links to interesting sites about Pompeii. Click below.

Rebecca's links

Note the plot foreshadowing (p. 108) that tells the reader (who knows what will happen): Ampliatus tells Attilius, "there's no safer investment than property in Pompeii." The author wants readers to shudder. And then there is the "hubris" of Ampliatus "it's money I understand... it doesn't matter when you havest it ... a year-round crop." Was all the wealthy class portrayed, or damned, by this attitude.

Harris' political perspective is flawed IMO, but then political columnists and commentators already have set opinions and select the facts to support their argument.

Harris twists the truth when he says that immigrants in the U.S. can't vote but their children can -- because immigrants, once they are U.S. citizens, can vote.

Marvelle

Is this an inference that this book should be viewed as a satiric criticism of the United States and its eventual downfall by a writer who doesn't like America at all? Or is it a sometimes exaggerated look at what existed in Pompeii, thanks to Rome?

Mal

It seemed to me that Harris was partly interested in ancient Rome for its own sake... the period he wrote about is fascinating. But he also made statements about parallels to the modern world, and in fact in an interview he said his original plan was to write a book in which Disney World would serve as an example of American values run amuck -- and got sidetracked by an interest in Pompeii.

Many writers (of both history and fiction) have drawn parallels between Ancient Rome and America. Then and now: a complex and sometimes corrupt bureaucracy; a balance of trade problem (Rome spent way too much money importing silks and spices from the east); concerns about a growing unemployed mass of people who have to be supported and entertained and controlled; a decline in traditional values; a fascination with violence; and a high standard of living (for some) supported by a vast technological infrastructure and exploitation of the poor. Many of our problems are mirrored in that past world. (But like any such analogy, it is imperfect.)

To return to one of the original questions: what is this book really about? Many themes have been identified -- individual against corrupt or society, man versus nature, disaster story, love story, mystery. All those themes were relevant to the human experience 2000 years ago, and are still relevant now - which says something about the universality of many aspects of human experience, I think.

Someone asked earlier: How many plots or formulas are there? A web site at: http:/www.ipl.org/div/farq/plotFARQ.html offers some possible answers (ranging from 1 to 37 plots - with lists for each). That list includes many plots included in this novel, and some that are not included.

I like a quote from Willa Cather (in "O Pioneers"). A character in her novel says:"... there are only two or three human stories, and they keep repeating themselves as fiercely as if they had never happened before."

In a sense, a writer fills in one of these basic plots with his or her own details (characters, setting, and so forth)- and does either a good or poor job of making the story come alive. I thought Harris did a great job of bringing the story to life: the descriptions of the sordid streets,the extravagant banquets, and the eruption made me feel as if I were there.

I see we are still asking, "What is this book about?"

In one sense, it is about how to die a good death. Each of the heroic characters in the book is willing to give up his life for the good of society, or to save a loved one. Pliny, of course, is close to death and determined to die bravely although he does not believe in an afterlife. Attilius is willing to sacrifice his life to save the aquaduct entrusted to his care, and then later to save Corelia who has opened him to the possibility of love once again. Corelia, in turn, would sacrifice herself to save Attilius from her father's assasination plot. In modern times, we spend less time thinking about a noble death and more about simply avoiding a lingering death tethered to all sorts of technology. This was something the Romans did not have to worry about. Their technology was directed toward engineering the environment, not toward manipulating life and death.

Cheers to Rebecca East post "136" which I have found most enthralling. Ditto Malryn (Mal). I agree with your post 128 one 100 per cent: we never know how we are going to react to adversity and danger beforehand. Human nature has resources that would surprise ourselves when put to a test; a real test. And if we survive we would say “I never thought I could do…..”

Amparo.

There's no inference about Harris' intent with Pompeii - he stated quite clearly, in the interviews listed in posts #129 and #130, that he was criticizing the U.S. In addition, he warned readers in the preface of quotes.

There is the surface plot - who did what; he said/she said - and then there's the 'what does it mean?' of author Harris' stated and intended parallel.

We can decide if Harris the author fulfilled his agenda and, if so, how expertly did he do so?

Also, we can as individuals agree or disagree with Harris' opinion of the U.S. I already took exception to one of his quotes about voting.

Marvelle

Well, ah, in the Story of Civilization discussion we have been comparing the rise and fall of rich, advanced, ancient civilizations with the United States from Egypt and Babylonia on to Rome for well over two years. The difference with Rome, of course, is that it was a republic, and so are we.

I don't know if she still feels this way, but GINNY came into the S of C discussion and asked how old Rome was when it started its decline, and how old is the United States? She suggested that we are comparing apples and oranges when we say the fall of Rome resembles what's happening here, that such comparison of civilizations should at least be in the same ball park.

The second link in Post 129 is not accessible to me. Perhaps it is to others, and perhaps in it Robert Harris comes out directly and says that his book, Pompeii, is, indeed, a strong criticism of this country. The quote by Tom Wolfe in the front of the book is not enough to convince me.

Of course, it would be a good deal of fun to say Ampliatus was Pompeii's Donald Trump, and to examine the American bureaucracy and compare it with Rome's, as represented by Pompeii, I suppose. America's spas have nothing on Roman baths, including those being constructed by Ampliatus. I imagine there's a lot of other stuff we could rake out of this book as a slur on the richest country in the world today.

It will take more proof than what I see right now to convince me that Harris's primary motive in writing Pompeii was to create a Vesuvius-ash-covered criticism of America, (like why bother with such extensive deviousness?) but I'll try to keep an open mind.

Mal

THIS is turning out to be an outstanding discussion! I must congratulate you all on the quality of it, I believe we have just put our collective finger on a bomb here and can't WAIT to get at it, but first, have brought you something I just posted in the Story of Civilization, since not all of you are in that discussion. and Robby had said something to me about bringing back some photos, I posted this there today and wanted to share it with you, as well.

Since I just took a few home snaps that I thought might interest you, for that purpose, while I was in Rome in June, forgive these home movies here, and thoughts, something I hope I can share that you might appreciate. hahahaha

I always think of the arch of Septimius Severus, one of three mammoth arches in the Forum, as the “melting arch” because up close it appears to be melting, to have acid thrown on it. The figures, which are stronger as you face the Forum (not this view) seem to be melting and this IS cleaned, they have completed (this was taken around June 10 2004) their mammoth cleaning job, the thing is melting, or so it seems to me, it seems to have the most damage of the three.

But you can see how big it is? The senate house is (and I’m told it IS the original one but I don’t think so) is sort of to the right behind this.

Here’s a recent photo of the

Arch of Titus and it also was cleaned for the Jubilee and is in pretty good shape, you can see the interior scenes of them carrying off the relics from the temple in Jerusalem very clearly, and they used to look like black blobs of soot.

Everything old is new again: here’s news from the ancient Forum, they’re excavating it!

My Italian is not good enough to ask them what they’re doing but they are VERY carefully using fine brushes, who knows what they’re looking for?

You don't see this too much right smack IN the Forum.

I mean they are being SOO careful, you wouldn't believe it.

In contrast to the Arch of Septimius Severus, here the

Arch of Constantine, taken from the top of the Colosseum and showing the Palatine Emperor’s residences behind it, is gigantic in scale, you can see how huge it is, dwarfs everything, including the busses behind it.

I love this photo, this is one of the things I find amazing about the Forum at Rome: the tons of pieces? Just ancient pieces of columns and relics lying around. Kind of reminds you of Shelly’s Oxymandias, doesn’t it? Even tho Shelly was writing about a different civilization.

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings,
Look on my Works ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."

Interesting questions have been raised: To what extent is the Harris novel a political statement about present day America?

When an author sets out to write a novel, I think, he or she may have one or many purposes in mind (and of course, readers may see things in the novel that the author did not consciously intend to put in it). One goal of fiction is usually to produce an engaging and entertaining story. Sometimes a goal is to dazzle the reader with the quality and style of the language. Some writers want their stories to be more than just entertainment: they want the novel to say something about human nature or the state of the world, that is, they want the story to have a “message”. Handbooks for writers point out that a book may focus primarily on any of the elements of fiction… it may be primarily about setting, culture, or technology (for instance, science fiction and fantasy often focus on the imaginary world created by the author); or about characters and their development over time; it may be plot driven (which is often true for mystery or suspense); or it may be a “message” novel. A novel may combine these elements.

Harris has mentioned a concern about current American culture as one of the things that motivated him to write this novel. If his primary intention was to persuade readers that modern America is corrupt, I don’t think the book was particularly effective. Other readers may react differently; but when I finished reading, the corruption of present day society was not uppermost in my mind. If he wanted to make a clear and strong condemnation of the societal problems of today, I think there are both fictional and non fictional ways that he could have communicated that message more powerfully. I feel that the book was a success in recreating a past world, and I confess to a sentimental preference for old-fashioned hero stories in which good triumphs over evil. That is how I experienced his novel: as an uplifting account of the triumph of a good man against almost overwhelming obstacles. I would agree that there is another theme present – that modern American culture has many of the same faults as ancient Rome – but to me this theme seemed secondary.

(An example of a novel that does put across a political or cultural statement very clearly: Mark Twain’s Huckleberry Finn… I think when people read Huck Finn they come away with clear messages about slavery.)

So what was the primary message in “Pompeii”? Different readers may come away with different ideas about that. For me, the primary message was that courage and integrity can prevail. To the extent that there was a political agenda, that seemed secondary to me.

But of course, readers bring their own individual backgrounds and concerns to reading a book, and readers who see this book as primarily a political statement aren’t “wrong”’; they are just reading the book from a different point of view than I did. For that matter, a person gets different things out of a book at different ages: I reread Anna Karenina a few years ago and my reactions to the story were quite different than the first time I read it (as a teenager).

Once again, my apologies, I’m rambling on far too long!

Rebecca, see next post, great minds run together!! We're posting together! hahaaha

Now I have another poem for you, and this one from Robert Frost, for us to think on a minute:

Fire and Ice

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favour fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

Early on in our discussion, Barbara began talking about the contrasts in the book. There are a LOT of contrasts. Here’s another one, the contrasts between what would appear to be two opposites, FIRE and WATER. I can’t get EF Benson’s ….hahaha own sibyl out of my mind, Fire and Water... Water and Fire. The Fire that burns…etc… hahaha but we start immersed in water in this book, in every way, and move to fire. Or do we? Both agents of nature, one which man tried to harness, one which he could not. Is there ANY symbolism at all here we should be looking at or thinking about? DID fire win in the end? As far as our hero is concerned…er…wait…wait….Harris seems to be saying there is another protagonist than the one we’re all focusing on, let’s talk about THAT and what Harris intended vis a vis America (gasp) today!

(Horselover, although it APPEARS we are still only discussing "what this book is ABOUT," thank you for reading the heading!!!!!! We are actually talking about a million and one things, while ostensibly focusing on ONE thing, today we’ll add two more, thank you for that ADDITIONAL “what this book is ABOUT!” Amazing, isn't it, how many different things you all are coming up with).

Lemme see if I can frame my own thoughts and reactions to the articles here on Harris, let me bring you the salient quotes and let’s add TWO questions to the one in the heading today, once we get up your own thoughts on same, that will be the appetizers and then let’s get to the REAL MEAT, your own submissions yesterday!

hang on a sec

Rebecca, we were posting together, you CAN'T run on too long, that's the entire point of what we're doing, we long to hear opinions!!! You have ESP, that's what we're taking up next, hold on for a semi incoherent question!

All right, and while I'm readying our incoherent topics du jour, if you all will, in addition to studying the heading, look UP on the right hand corner of this webpage, in a teal box and find the words PRINT PAGE and click on it (you will NOT be printing) you will have a stand alone page of everything we've said, that's the way I don't miss ANYTHING you've said, hopefully, and the way you all can keep up besides the heading, just FYI here! I think we've hit on something big, back in a mo,

If Harris's motive in this book was to reveal that the "arrogance of empire" of the Romans was so great that they disregarded and ignored little symptoms like signals a volcano was going to blow right in their back Pompeiian yard to show that America is doing the same thing, he has failed, in my opinion.

Only one of the many reviews and analyses I've read mentions "the possibility" of such a theme in this novel. Most are entranced with the vivid way Harris describes the eruption, the reactions and the part the Aqua Augusta played.

If Harris really wanted to put this arrogant empire idea across, he perhaps should not have used so much ashy obfuscation.

Mal

hahha Malryn, I love that, Ashy obfuscation, hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, I think so, too, and am running in here to pose two new questions, one of which you've just answered. He actually makes a point that the novel got away from him in one of those articles, doesn't he? And I want to look at it tomorrow, this is WAY too long, I apologize!!

Excerpts from statements by Robert Harris on his book, Pompeii:

'The Romans learned how to move water long distances. It meant they could build cities anywhere. In the first century AD the citizens of Rome had more water per head than the citizens of New York do today. I had the idea of a dominant world power in the back of my mind, and of how long it might last, and of hubris, because in the end all empires and civilisations pass away. And it suddenly struck me that Rome might be the best way to write about America - because they thought they were the last word, the Romans, and that nothing would ever come along that would be better.'

He was moved - as writers have been for centuries - by the sight of "futility and abandonment" overtaking such toil and skill: "Buses and lorries run underneath; no one pays it any attention at all."

. "Everything will pass away. Entropy. Nature will simply claim it back. At some point - who knows when that will be? - it will happen to America, even."

After Fatherland (with its cunning variations on the old premise of a victorious Hitler)….[came…am combining stuff here but you all can read the urls above] 11 September 2001. Within two days, he had published an essay hearing the unavoidable echoes and drawing the moral that "no civilisation is ever safe; history doesn't end".

." He draws his hero as a no-nonsense technician, endorses Pliny's conviction that "God is man helping man", (NB: Note, please that Harris DID have a thread, somewhat of an ulterior motive here concerning religion?) augmented by:

What entranced him was the Stoic interregnum that came between the decline of traditional piety and the rise of Christianity; that brave and naked age when - and here Harris quotes Flaubert - "the old gods had died and Christ was yet to come". (NB This is what Joan K said Boy we’re good readers!)

Far away, the wounded American giant plunges blindly on. Near at hand, an ominously broiling summer sends a plague of wasps to dive-bomb our plates. And the fate of Pompeii whispers that triumphs and troubles, great and small, will pass: "I think that idea possibly has more resonance now than at any time in human history.”

In this article from Random House Robert Harris on the failure to write a book about America and Disney, and how he makes the connection between the two, which includes this statement?
Pompeii has taken me three years to produce, from reading that original newspaper cutting to delivery of the manuscript to my publisher. No period has been more enjoyable in my writing life. And if the price I had to pay beforehand was eighteen wasted months trying to write about America, then I don’t begrudge it. Besides, nothing a novelist ever does is ever entirely wasted. When I write about the Bay of Naples, I also have in my mind Malibu and Palm Beach. The millionaire Roman ‘New Men’ in their luxury villas beneath Vesuvius are, to me, not that far removed from the dot.com billionaires I saw in San Francisco. Pliny and Attilius represent the best American values of scientific enquiry and engineering genius. The complacency of a society which ignores all the warning signs from nature while in pursuit of profit — ‘Salve lucrum!’ as they used to say in Pompeii — is not that far removed from the superpower which turns its back on international treaties on global warming.

I was even able to use some of my American research. That quote from Tom Wolfe? Five years on, it forms the epigraph to POMPEII.
And so on, there’s enough copy here to indicate that Harris, at least, TRIED to make some comparisons to American society. He’s said so plainly, too many times. I wonder if this is a van attempt of his own, maybe after the fact, to not waste his own eighteen months of work on his American novel?

But who knew?

I like the way Rebecca expressed it. I think she put her finger on it when she said, if that was his intent in Pompeii, he did not achieve it. And it’s clear he does want to make these comparisons, he’s said so.

Several times.

We’ve had a lot of authors visit us here in the Books on SeniorNet and a lot who haven’t. We’ve all read what Author XXX was trying to do, but when we read the book the READER decides if that’s been pulled off or not.

We’re very discerning readers, we’re not your average book clubs here. I knew if we started with this book, if it had any cracks, it wouldn’t stand up to our scrutiny, if it had any weaknesses, they would be exposed, simply because, together, we’re…we’re good.

Now don’t get me wrong? I enjoyed the writing, I enjoyed the book, if you ask me tomorrow if I recommend it, I’ll say yes, exciting read, you can learn a lot about aqueducts and Pompeii, but I’ll say to YOU from the very beginning I’ve been….put off by the conflicting…themes. I mean it’s almost a roar to me when I read it. I mean they come thru so clearly clashing to me. I know many of you have no problem with the aqueducts and Pompeii, that’s fine, I do. And now we’re entering one of my admittedly personal pet peeves, “America is going the way of the Ancient Romans,” which is not what I think Harris succeeded in conveying. I mean, quite frankly, that would never have occurred to me, in reading this book, at all? Did it you?

Rebecca said it better than I can:

If his primary intention was to persuade readers that modern America is corrupt, I don’t think the book was particularly effective. Other readers may react differently; but when I finished reading, the corruption of present day society was not uppermost in my mind. If he wanted to make a clear and strong condemnation of the societal problems of today, I think there are both fictional and non fictional ways that he could have communicated that message more powerfully. I feel that the book was a success in recreating a past world, and I confess to a sentimental preference for old-fashioned hero stories in which good triumphs over evil. That is how I experienced his novel: as an uplifting account of the triumph of a good man against almost overwhelming obstacles. I would agree that there is another theme present – that modern American culture has many of the same faults as ancient Rome – but to me this theme seemed secondary.
.

I agree. Now the question today, is not what ginny thinks but what YOU think?

And the first new question today IS:
1. Do you think Harris succeeded in making parallels to America in this book? Do you see any instances of a point being proved about American Society, if so what are they?

Breaking up this extremely long post, I add Question #2:

Now we have a new protagonist mentioned instead of our man Attilius, and that’s the venal (and as somebody here has pointed out, one dimensional: all evil) : ex slave, Ampliatus.

Harris is quoted in the articles above as saying he embodies

..the grave and grubby sides of empire. As the action rattles on towards catastrophe, the author opts - as his genre demands - for plot twists over nuances of character. "I stand by the supremacy of narrative and the novel of sensation," he says, but admits: "Ampliatus teeters on the brink of taking over the novel, but you can't really stop and explore that because the story compels you forward." Pompeii must deliver calamity in place of closure. In spite of this destiny, the tension seldom slackens.

The article goes on to say

The 80 virtuoso pages that follow the "double boom" heard at 1pm on 24 August offered Harris "a great liberation from plot". Suddenly, moral choices could be made," says Harris. Harris now views it as "a story like the Titanic, of technological civilisation overwhelmed by the power of nature".

All right, let’s add this question to the other new two in the heading, we’re asking, now, YOUR opinion, as the reader, not what Harris thought, on both of these new questions:

2. Which character do you think is the most strongly and completely written? Which character, for YOU is most in danger of taking over or dominating the plot? Who IS the protagonist of this novel?

NOW!! That's enough tome from me for a while, let's hear from ALL of you on these two new thoughts, will come back later today on some of the points you all raised so marvellously (HELLO MIPPY and MOUNTAIN ROSE!! Welcome!!) later today!

There came a point in reading this book when I felt as if I were reading a novel aimed at high school pupils, which would educate and titillate at the same time, with its allusions to priapus, which they'd never heard of, and some four letter words to spice it up. After reading this assigned book, the teacher would test the kids by asking them what this, that and the other classical reference meant, and did they learn anything about volcanoes? If so, what?

There were times while reading it when I thought the author had failed, period. It was only in those 80 pages after the volcano erupted that this book took on life for me.

Ampliatus is a wonderful character and very well drawn. Attilius is flat by comparison, doesn't even come under the category of romantic hero, in my estimation.

It's funny, when I first read about Ampliatus, I thought of Mrs. Van Hopper, the garish, nouveau riche, unmannered, rude, push-people-around, ugly American in Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca, which we recently discussed. That character and novel are still very fresh in my mind.

Maybe one could stretch it and say that Harris scored on that one as far as I am concerned, though real comparison between Rome and the United States never came to my mind until Marvelle posted the links.

Frankly, I'm tired of America-bashing. I've seen characters like Ampliatus and Mrs. Van Hopper in many nationalities and times in fiction and real life. People like them are not exclusive to Rome and us. Nor are wealth and power and the use/misuse of them.

Is Ampliatus the protagonist? I rather think the volcano (nature) is. It drives the story from beginning to end, with man-human beings the whipped antagonist.

Frankly, I found this novel a disappointment, though it would be fun to check out the classical references in it. To Harris's credit, I was taken by the scientific talk, and I liked Pliny a lot, though he seemed to be a peculiar combination of scientist-philosopher and rich Epicurean fat slob.

Mal

Without giving away the "ending", which was nicely set up, I think, to work in a movie script (does Harris have Hollywood in mind?) I think Attilius retains first place as the prime mover of the plot. After all, it would take great strength of character to defy the Admiral, and tell Pliny that he takes orders only from Rome. For me, Pliny is far and away the most interesting character: as a scientist, as an author, an administrator, and finally as a friend to Rectina (although perhaps the unmatched library was as important as she was).

On a lighter note, was that an error (classic scholars please reply) when (p. 242) Pliny dressed in a toga for a casual meal of cold meats, etc. I thought the Romans would wear a tunic or some other more informal attire under such circumstances. Finished the book, by the way, which arrived yesterday. Very, very good job by Harris, although minor flaws are sprinkled through. Of course, not in the same class as Coleen McCullough.

In order for a country to exist it must be in harmony with the elements that surround it. There must be fire, wood, earth, metal and water. When any one of these components is out of balance you can create a disaster. Too much water and you have floods. Too little water and you have drought. Too much fire and you burn up. To little fire and the world becomes cold and dark - Ice Age.

This is what happened in Pompeii. The city became unbalanced and the result was the disaster of Mt. Vesuvius eruption. If you remember when Attillus arrived he saw an over abundence of water while his own city had almost none.

Symbolically this can also hold true of societies such as America and ancient Rome. When these countries are not in harmony with the other countries surrounding them it will lead to disaster. Rome became unbalanced when their population became less and less Rome and more babarian. In all things from politics to religion, from fashion to foods, Rome adopted other peoples' products and imported more than it exported throwing the country out of balance.

As America uses up all its resources as well we will be thrown out of balance and could and I saw Could with a capital "C" be in trouble if this continues. I think already we are failing to be in balance with nature and this will adventually lead to problems. But as they say Rome wasn't built in a day nor did it decline in a day and neither will we. We are already importing much more than we are exporting, but this can change if we the people have our say.

I have been eavesdropping long enough........and valuing all of your entries. The discussion is excellent. I will follow this discussion with the upcoming Latin course.

In answer to your questions, Ginny: l. No, Harris did not for me succeed in making parallels to America, if that was what he was trying to do. Perhaps, we Americans and also Europeans are so interested in this current Europe vs America thing that we see it everywhere; let's hope we end up allies as before, though the European Union, the United Nations and attitudes on both continents could preclude this. Harris' actual point of view may represent a typical European's attitude about America at this time as articles about him seem to indicate, but I did not think at all about America's situation during this Roman romp.

2. Robert Harris' strengths appear to be plot/setting/time, and above all telling a good story. Characterization does not appear to be his strong point in this novel, though the glimpse we have of his cast of characters is interesting, along with all the references to Roman lifestyle. The description of characters for me was like the quick exposition of information which we get on TV; characters were not deeply explored.

I agree with the person who mentioned that Vesuvius is really the main character and dominates; should Vesuvius have been the title? I think that the Aqua Augusta is the hook, that is the compelling factor that draws us in to this fascinating tale.

Thanks to all for this emerging font of information. La Verne

I'm typing as I'm thinking, so this may come out quite confused. There are two disasters in this story, and we are confusing them. One is the decay of the society and the other the eruption of Pompaii. Even if Pompaii had erupted in a healthy society, about the same number of people would have been killed. Nor did the eruption of Pompaii lead to the fall of Rome. The eruption, the natural disaster, is so overwhelming that it makes many of the personal disasters irrelevant. This is one reason the book fails as social commentary. That's ok by me, we have enough social commentary.

As far as the societal decay, Rome had been decaying for centuries and would continue to do so for several centuries more. In terms of our modern values, Rome was always decadent in some ways, even at the height of her power. As Mal said, it is tempting to use it as a comparison because it had been a Republic, and because its fall was so dramatic.

There are things the books should remind us of, and we have mentioned them. We have become complacent in two areas. It is still true, as our forefathers said, that "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty". We can't take for granted that the form of society we have will endure. I don't think there are more corruption and attacks on liberty than there have been in the past, but in the past, there have been brave citzens who stood up and fought for honesty and freedom. We have to be sure that continues.

The other place we have become complaisant, as several have said, is in our control of the natural environment. We assume that we can always bend it to our will, even when there are clear signs that we are failing to do so. The Romans have to be given credit: they did all they could with their limited technology, while we do not.

You will be getting a Welcome Letter soon so Please watch for it as it will be of help to you to get you around the book area of Senior Net.

I am flabbergasted! Post #152, 2nd paragraph has got me utterly lost. “the city became unbalanced…” what had Pompeii or any other city for that matter have to do with Earth’s ecological movement and subsequent disasters besides being geographically on its (Earth) path? No amount of decadence nor goodness or piety would have made any difference for Mount Vesuvius to behave and erupt when and as it did… nor will help a next time. Only at present times do scientist have the requirements and technology to help prevent lost of live; not so much luck to prevent volcanoes from erupting or earthquakes from occurring. Floods shall continue to happen if it rains long enough. Droughts will happen more and more often and more severe (if man keeps on chopping trees).

Since the beginning of history society seems to be on cycles of good and not so good. Worldwide we are experiencing profound changes. Dishonesty: how many people have lost life savings due to mismanagement/greed/corruption of others? I clearly remember grandparent being looked after and living with their children, thus enriching the lives of grandchildren. Unmarried aunts used to live with relations and were a help with chores. Children were polite. Violence was almost unheard of. And so on. What do we have now? Take away slavery and we are right in Pompeii’s time… if not worse.

I realise I could be out of content of “book (fiction) discussion”.

Cheers.

Amparo.

(Note: Amparo, well said. I agree with the 'city out of balance' ... the author's premise that a city was destroyed by angry Nature is a bit much. No, you definitely aren't out of content in this discussion.)

Okay, I'm going to do some backtracking to explain how I got to the realization of a parallel in Pompeii between America and the Roman Empire.

____________________________________

Definition of Preface: A preface is an introduction to a work and it explains the author's intention; it is a preliminary treatise.

There are three quotes in the Preface which I'll paraphrase:

# 1 America feels superior in the world because of her society and skills.

#2 The Roman Empire felt superior in the world because of her society and skills.

#3 The implementation of technology of the Roman Empire was superior to that of American technology.

Explanation of #1 and #2: The literary term for these two quotes is: Parallelism, defined as a recurrent syntactical similarity. This is where Harris is telling the reader that the civilizations of America and the Roman Empire are similar. He correctly assumes that readers have a basic grasp of history and know about "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" and that Pompeii was destroyed.

Explanation of #3, which follows up on the established parallel of America and the Roman Empire: Both America and the Roman Empire felt superior (too proud?) but, since one example of Roman technology is superior to America, and the Roman Empire fell, so too will America fall.

This is Harris' preface and the preface is his explanation of the book Pompeii.

____________________________________

I don't agree obviously with Harris' distasteful judgments, but it is his judgment and he explained his intentions/purpose clearly in the preface; it could be considered Harris' major theme.

I don't think he was effective in his argument but will leave that to another post.

Marvelle

"Harris admits that he just barely avoided disaster himself. After observing the United States for more than a year, he had intended to write a novel set in the near future. 'The story I had in mind,' he says, 'might loosely be described as 'The Walt Disney Company takes over the world': a thriller about a utopia going horribly wrong,' but 'the characters stubbornly refused to come alive and the subject remained as flimsy as smoke.' Or, perhaps he realized that Julian Barnes had already written that novel brilliantly just three years ago in England, England. But for whatever reason, we've been spared another Brit's satire of America (Vernon God Little is enough to endure for this season), and given this terrifically engaging novel instead.

"Attilius quickly deduces that the break must be somewhere near Pompeii. As the reservoir drains in Misenum, he secures permission from Pliny the Elder (wonderfully brought back to life here) and heads out with a small, reluctant crew.

"The passage of 2,000 years has not diminished the technical dimensions of this task — nor the social risks of failure. Harris conveys the modern elements of this ancient life with startling effect.

"But Harris hasn't brought those haunting, calcified forms to life just for the sport of entombing them again 2,000 years later. The light he shines on that awesome crisis, and the way good and bad people responded, illuminates our continued dependence on the most fundamental elements — a stable earth and a righteous man."

Source:

Review: Christian Science Monitor, Dec. 8, 2003. powells.com/review

"Harris is also alert to a broader political theme - Roman water supplies were a symbol of empire. He found that the workings of ancient Rome kept bringing him back to the modern day parallel superpower - America.

"'The Romans learned how to move water long distances. It meant they could build cities anywhere. In the first century AD the citizens of Rome had more water per head than the citizens of New York do today. I had the idea of a dominant world power in the back of my mind, and of how long it might last, and of hubris, because in the end all empires and civilisations pass away. And it suddenly struck me that Rome might be the best way to write about America - because they thought they were the last word, the Romans, and that nothing would ever come along that would be better.'"

Source:

Random House Reading Group Guide

" 'What is interesting about both America and the Romans is that they are both ideals,' he (Harris)says. 'They are both gathered around the idea of citizenship. I find the Romans a very interesting way to write about the modern world. They had a senate, an empire, a fleet - they were a superpower. They had a legal society with which we have so much in common, but at the same time they were strange.' As an early scene in which a slave is fed to a pool of moray eels so aptly demonstrates."

Source:

Review: The Scotsman

It took some hours of digging to find the above sites. The one that seems most sure about Harris's intended critique of America is what Random House, the publisher of Pompeii, put on the web as a readers guide.

I must say that for myself what came to mind when I read this book was not a thought of That could happen here or This is just like what's happening in my country.

Not once did I think of the power blackout of the East coast in the '60's or the more recent one, or the ice storms that have knocked out electricity, heat and water in my part of North Carolina sometimes for weeks, or any of the hurricanes and blizzards and floods I've lived through and the devastation they brought, or the part politics and the complacency of the government of the United States might have played in trying to prevent some of these crises.

What I did think about when reading this book was the fact that people survived the effects of the eruption of Vesuvius at Pompeii. I thought a lot about the Aqua Augusta and how dependent the Pompeiians were on that aqueduct. I thought about what a feat of engineering the Aqua Augusta was. I thought about another book I'd read about man-set fire, and I thought about people fleeing the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001, as I've already said.

In other words, I did not think the parallelism Marvelle mentions that she sees in this book is a major theme. Now that I'm aware of it, I'm still not convinced it is, whether Robert Harris meant it to be or not.

As we all have found out here or elsewhere, themes of novels are greatly dependent on the reaction of their readers. Any real writer of fiction knows this, and it affects the way he or she writes. Sometimes it's necessary to pound your major theme hard, so people will get it when they read what you write and don't change it into something else they perceive or dream up.

As far as I'm concerned, Robert Harris did not succeed in doing this, in emphasizing what he thought was his major theme. When other points about parallelism, as mentioned here, are revealed, I doubt very much if I will consider any similarity between Rome and this country the principal theme of this novel. I'll venture to say that other readers of Harris's Pompeii won't either.

Mal

Going back on the Print Page and picking up all the delicious morsels you all have dropped, if we were Hansel and Gretel, we'd never find our way out, I'd stop and eat all of the crumbs.

Lovely stuff! Thank you all so much for everything you've contributed!

Welcome Mountain Rose! And thank you for that neato mention of the J Paul Getty Museum! I wish I had known of it the last time I went thru Southern CA. I did see the Hearst "Castle," with its outside pool reminiscent of Hadrian's Villa, (and the most fabulous indoor pool I have ever seen in my LIFE), thank you for bringing this example of Roman influence here.

Welcome FAKI, or LaVerne!! I think I'll call you La Verne, if that's OK but I love FAKI, too! I appreciate your wonderful perspectives and comments, our heading is filling up quite nicely with everybody's reactions (and will be longer today as soon as I can get TO it).

Rebecca, so your book is about a modern person returned to Pompeii, I tell you what, I think we need to read it and schedule it in the new year, because if it's anything like how you write here, it's a winner! Love the premise.

Malryn thank you for that information and link from Rebecca's site. Rebecca, is this true? You have come to a great place, we have plenty of retired (and not retired) faculty here, as well as farmers, bus drivers, and people of all types, we're delighted to have you. If I had to guess, I'd say your area of specialty is English Literature, am I any where near close??

WELCOME again to you.

Mippy, a very interesting question and I hope somebody can answer it, on Pliny in the tunic for a casual meal!!! (So you are placing, as a person who does read historical fiction, Harris as not quite in the same league as Colleen McCullough?) How does he relate to other works of historical fiction? Is he more of the...well what GENRE do we put this book in, Guys?

Many people don't know McCullough is something of a scholar, herself.

So far, here is all I can find on the dress worn at meals by the Romans, what can you all find? I personally have no idea and now am on fire to know? This is not particularly my area of expertise (if I have one at all, this is not it), here's what I have found so far?

Roman Dress at Meals

The meal itself: after a day's work which started a dawn, and a visit to the baths, the well-to-do Roman went home for the main meal of the day, cena or dinner. "Lunch was eaten at noon and it was a light meal. It usually consisted of some meat or fish followed by fruit. " (Cambridge)"Though the ancient Roman citizen who had employment downtown could eat his lunch in a down-town lunchroom, he preferred to go home to eat...around 11 or 12...sometimes accompanied by an associate or two." (Warsley_

(Detail from a 19th century depiction of a cena or formal dinner by Edward A. Armitage).

The cena or main meal of the day started late in the afternoon and normally...was eaten at a leisurely pace over several hours. It was often more of a social event than just a meal, as there would frequently be guests and entertainment between courses, including clowns, dancers or poetry readings, according to taste. In later times people dressed for dinner in an elegant Greek robe called a synthesis and ate reclining on large couches which held up to three people.

The triclinium became the formal dining room. The diners [often three to one couch] leaned on their left elbows, feet pointing away from the table, and perhaps supported by foot-stools (OCCL)

(a triclinium shown here in Herculaneum, the stripes were put there by the scanner, sorry). Usually the three couches were placed around a low dining table, to which servants brought the courses. The Romans did not use forks, so hands had to be frequently washed. (Eyewitness Books)

Dining customs changed from the Republic to the Empire. "Reclining on couches at meals was the custom of the rich or leisured class; poor people or slaves reclined on pallets or sat upright." (OCCL)

There might be as many as twenty courses. (Warsley).

Dress changed also with the times. A tunic was a garment worn under the toga…there were several kinds of tunics, named for their position next to or close to the skin, tunica was the tunic worn next to the toga. Others included subacula, indusium, and interula "Common people walked the streets without a toga, just wearing their tunic or tunics. Slaves also wore tunics." (W) "Later it became usual to wear two tunics. Augustus wore four in winter…(OCCL)

The toga was a heavy white woolen garment…an uncomfortable garment, and needed frequent cleaning, but it was dignified, and was obligatory dress on formal occasions, even in Imperial times when more convenient garments had come into use, such as the synthesis, a matching set of loose, brightly coloured garments, suitable for wearing at dinner parties. (OCCL)

So now, I don't know, you tell me, it APPEARS that the toga still made appearances at the formal dinners and...what can YOU find about Pliny and what he had on, and why? Was Harris right having him eating in the toga, or wrong? He was an Admiral and seemed to be of the old school? And that cold plate meal. Where is that in the text, was it lunch or was it dinner? Was it formal? This is fascinating. (I did find out a bit of trivia, Warsley says that the Romans would be given napkins and they could take away from the meal stuff to take home: the first doggie bags. He also says they could inquire of the recipe of the cook. Weren't they FASCINATING? (Sources here were Abert E Warsley, Simon James (Eyewitness Books), the Cambridge Latin Course, and the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature,

We need to thank Pat Westerdale for her wonderful HTML page of your responses to Question I in the heading (qv)hahaha a little Latin there...hahaha..qv for Latin quod vide: "which see," you see it all the time, no better place to use it than in a discussion of Ancient Pompeii).

Thank you Marvelle, for bringing us those articles on Harris and America, it's opened up an entire new avenue of thought on:

The meaning of the quotes preceding the book

What Harris seemed to have had in the back of his mind

The topic itself of America going the way of Rome, and has allowed much wonderful conversation!

It's a horror to talk about a book for a month, hang up the discussion, feeling you've covered everythiing, and find others saying oh yeah, Harris had this America the Wounded Giant thing going, and you say, HUH? WHAT?

We need EVERY bit of information here, from every source.

So we can make our own decisions.

Malryn, thank you for finding that Random House Reader's Guide site, I went in fear and trembling, by George, we… (have we?) have already covered most of their points. (no wonder we put up our own Reader's Guides) Thank you for that, I must examine that more fully. Is there any question there any of you would like to consider?? Can ANY of you find out about the wearing of a tunic at a meal? I bet the internet has it!! Or maybe some of your books say, maybe Harris there is making a POINT?

and more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In answer to a question on which was discussed offline, yes, many aqueducts DO run underground, if you look way back where Joan put the link to my original post you can see the incredible sight of the Aqua Marcia erupting from the ground! Electric sight!

Now I apologize for this, I am ashamed to put this here, will some of you find some photos online of current Roman fountains, large and small to offset this?

When you all know Rome is full of gushing fountains of ALL sizes, (I wish I had a photo of the one right AT St. Peters, shaped like a beehive in the symbol of the Vatican which people crowd around just like 2,000 years ago and fill water bottles), but I nearly fainted when I read what's written here, can you see this?

I had just read Pompeii when I saw this and nearly croaked! Hahahaha

Ice cold water on a 90 degree day. The thing that astounds me, living here in South Carolina, where a 6 gallon Water Closet is now illegal, forcing you to flush the 2 gallon jobbies 10 times instead, is that the water in these fountains runs CONTINUALLY, what a WASTE we would scream, it runs and runs and runs.

Still

The Nappo book says there have been 42 fountains found in Pompeii so far, and you've seen the stats on those in Rome, THINK of all that pure, clean, crystalline water, running down the drain!!!!!!!!!! Think of California, where, when you go out to where the movie stars live you find signs saying "this lawn is being watered by reclaimed waste water" or something like that!!

Malryn, you asked about why I decided to take the discussion as a whole? Just to be different and do something different, each of our discussions being a living thing, I thought I'd do something different. Please feel free to bring up anything you find on any page, the form of this discussion has no relation to the text complexity, I just wanted something for the summer which was unique

Good point, Annafair, on the debt we in America DO owe the Romans!

Listen, Guys, I hate to admit this much ignorance, but HOW, actually, would a moray eel kill you? What does a moray eel look like? Thank you, Rebecca, for that background story, do you have anything on tunics and meals?

Great set of parallels, Rebecca, on Rome/ America, this is a topic people love to discuss, let's seque over AND discuss it. THANK you for that listing of the plots and formulas, I would like to take a closer look at that one and will show it to our 30 Discussion Leaders here in the Books!

Good point, Amparo, on what we MIGHT do (and might not do) in a crisis!

I am wondering if you all might think that the book got away from Harris? These statements of his, (ordinarily I don't read what the author wanted or thought till the book is over but the book is over and I think it got away from him). What do you conclude from these thoughts?

"Ampliatus teeters on the brink of taking over the novel, but you can't really stop and explore that because the story compels you forward." Pompeii must deliver calamity in place of closure. In spite of this destiny, the tension seldom slackens." And
The 80 virtuoso pages that follow the "double boom" heard at 1pm on 24 August offered Harris "a great liberation from plot".

Freedom from plot is an interesting concept. I agree it was exciting and well written and I also felt I was there. I have a hard time relating to any of the characters except Pliny… I dunno.

Scrawler, I know you also are a published author, and in your thoughts on harmony (and I VERY much like your comparisons) and the disruption of it, would you say…we know every plot needs SOMETHING antagonistic? Would you say the antagonistic forces in this one are...(where is the harmony in this one?) Would you say the conflicts are too much? Overdone? We've got conflicts here out the wazoo?

If we made a list of antagonists and conflicts we'd have the plot.

I thought this was a very interesting point from Laverne, I think that the Aqua Augusta is the hook, that is the compelling factor that draws us in to this fascinating tale.

I want to ask you all, WHAT made you pick up this book? What were you expecting when you saw that title? Going to put that one in the heading!

Joan K, if that's your conception of confused, I hate to see you when lucid! Hahahaha What an interesting point: TWO disasters…. I am not sure I am seeing…is the Pompeiian society the disaster? Because of the evil of Ampliatus? Or?? Great point on the natural disaster would have killed a lot, whether or not they were corrupt, I spent a lot of time thinking about that one. I think there is a parallel in one of the Psalms about how such things come to every person, good or evil, but I can't recall the verse, now, does anybody know it?

I thought that was a wonderful statement about current America and the threats being no different than it ever was, Joan. If you all like, let's pursue this topic of America versus….Ancient Rome which Joan points out was not Pompeii, and it wasn't.

Thank you Ginger!

Amparo you also make the point that the natural disaster really had nothing to do with the people living in Pompeii, and you're right. This is an interesting thought Amparo made, and Ancient Rome/ America are VERY HOT TOPICS in the world today, let's seque aside and discuss them? Harris brought it up! hahahaha

What do we have now? Take away slavery and we are right in Pompeii’s time… if not worse. What do you think about Amparo's statement here and let's flat out ask YOU what you think: IS America going the way of the Ancient Romans! (I know some of you have addressed this, but many have not).

Thank you Marvelle, for a closer look at the somewhat bewlidering quotes in the Preface, what Harris called "epigraphs," didn't he? Many people do not know what epigraphy IS.

And it would make a huge difference here.

Thank you Malryn for that deeper look into those articles, I am so glad we're having these conversations.

Epigraphs and Epigraphy mean something different when you're talking about ancient Romans, I wonder what Harris was driving at? That surprised me, more on that tomorrow, TWO NEW questions for you today coming up in the heading, let's discuss!!! (By the way? Why is it always Rome and America?? Why AMERICA??

"Baths were what raised even the meanest citizen of Rome above the level of the wealthiest hairy-assed barbarian. Baths instilled the triple disciplines of cleanliness, healthfulness and strict routine. Was it not to feed the baths that the aqueducts had ben invented in the first place? Had not the baths spread the Roman ethos across Europe, Africa, and Asia as effectively as the legions so that in whatever town in this far flung empire a man might find himself, he could at least be sure of finding this one precious piece of home?"

I'm not quite sure I agree with that statement. It's hard to fancy a culture and an empire being built on immersing oneself in the waters.

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Epigraph: an engraved inscription; a quotation set at the beginning of a literary work or one of its divisions to suggest a theme.

Marvelle

Why always America? People love to take slaps at the new kid on the block that got rich quick. People love to see people rise to the top; then when they do, they can't wait for them to fall.

Now we're being accused of empire-building with a disregard for what's going on at home in the same way Harris thinks Rome did, using Pompeii as an example. There's some justification in the empire-building accusation, I suppose, or how it appears to other nations, but as I read about Ancient Rome in Will Durant's Story of Civilization I don't see close comparisons to their emperors piling civilization conquest on civilization conquest simply for gain.

Other countries complain because, as the world's most powerful and richest nation, we have influenced them in ways that make them feel as if they're losing their national identity. They don't like becoming Americanized, but it's been their choice, as I see it. Nobody forces them to wear designer blue jeans and listen to American hiphop and rap, eat McDonald's hamburgers and watch American movies and TV, signs of American degradation à la Rome in some people's estimation.

Harris was influenced by dot com billionaires and wealth he saw lolling on beaches at Malibu and Miami, examples of our sloth, as represented by Ampliatus and his like? How many of us have ever been to Malibu or Miami or to the Silicon Valley, I wonder?

Is there an element of jealousy here in those who criticize us? Did Harris see, and is he even aware, that there are millions of hard-working Americans who live ordinary lives, practice their religion, pay the mortgage every month on their modest three bedroom houses, do their best to educate their children and help those in need, people who have never been in Miami and will never come close to seeing a million dollars in their lives? Does he realize that the majority of us are not ill-mannered, boorish cowboys ready to shoot 'em up and ride into the sunset with their booty?

Dos he understand our system of democracy within a republic? Was it the same in Rome? I say no. Does he know that in Rome all signs of democracy disappeared and the senate collapsed before that civilization fell? Does he think the will and the voice of common, ordinary American people who vote in free elections have been forever stifled and stilled?

If I'd thought this book was a slam at America, I never would have spent part of what little money I have to buy it. I'm not, or ever was, a nationalistic, super patriot. I am, however, tired of non-stop slurs on my country.

Mal

. . . book about Rome, called "The First Man in Rome" was a marvellous read, and exceptionally well researched, I think. Here is a review of that book:

From Publishers Weekly -- Gaius Marius, brilliant military leader and six-term Roman consul, heads the cast of a hefty historical novel replete with politics, social infighting, bloody battles and domestic drama. "Evoking with impeccably researched, meticulous detail the political and social fabric of Rome in the last days of the Republic, McCullough demonstrates a thoroughgoing understanding of an age in which birth and blood lines determine one's fate,"

As for why America is always mentioned in conjunction with Rome, I think it's because America is right now big and powerful, very visible, with a lot of social problems to face. But actually I feel if any society should be mentioned as heading for a "fall" it would be ALL OF WESTERN SOCIETY, with Europeans being no exception. In fact, if we really want to compare "empire" it would be the British Empire which was at one time on a par with Rome. America never has had an empire and probably never will; we have other problems. And as we all know Great Britain has had it's ups and downs.

To me that's just a rhythm of history, no more and no less. In our Western Society we do have problems very similar to those that the Romans had, including loss of moral values, love of spectator violence and needing to be constantly entertained, short attention spans, crime, unemployment, rich vs poor, invasion by third-world uneducated people, etc., etc. But again, as far as I'm concerned that is just the rhythm of history in ALL societies, was inevitable then, and is inevitable now. I see the next great empire to be China, either by force or by pure economic power, and the rest of us will have to live by their rules whether we like it or not.

And it always amazes me that Europeans, with all their own decadence, keep pointing the finger at America. At least America keeps trying to "get it right" whereas I feel cynical Europe isn't even trying anymore, and so they have to have a scapegoat. And I was born in Europe and am a naturalized citizen saying this. I for one am tired of having America criticized when this country keeps at least trying, in spite of all its mistakes, to get it right. After 9/11 I for one don't know of a single country where the president of that country would have headed for a visit to a mosque to give a CLEAR MESSAGE that scapegoating would not be allowed on American citizens, even if they are Muslims. No head of any European nation did that.

Moray Eel #1

Moray Eel #2

Moray Eel #3

There are over 80 varieties of moray eels around the world - notice that one of the links is from beautiful Hawaii - and I wouldn't have any of them as a pet or as food. Ugh.

Marvelle

. . . about American influence on their society. No one is forcing that influence. If people want to eat at McDonald's or buy Coke, and lose their culture in the process, it is NOT OUR PROBLEM!

I have found Americans to be the most generous, kindest people in the world when the chips are down. They are adventurous, seek solutions for any problems they face, are incredibly inventive, sometimes bend the rules a bit if they don't serve a good purpose, and want to see positive results. Sometimes that leads to a sort of impatience that I think may be misplaced, but it comes from a generous heart to help.

. . . it seems that people who take baths tend to feel superior to those who don't. If you read "Shogun" you can see how the Japanese who took baths regularly felt about the "barbaric" Englishmen, even as recently as the 1500, or whenever that took place.

Personally I thinks that's sort of an interesting commentary on people in general, since the sense of smell is actually quite refined, even if subconscious, and people recognize their own group with the help of a sense of smell, and also feel attraction to sexual partners via the sense of smell. By ridding ourselves of "body odor" I suppose we must feel superior to animals in some way. Funny thing is, when everyone smells, it is no longer noticeable.

But certainly, if baths have anything to do with being "civilized", then the Romans were more civilized than the Europeans even up until quite recently. Even in my lifetime in Europe, I recall bath time as being Saturday night, and sponge baths only until Saturday night. Most people didn't have bathrooms until recently, and in Europe there is still not as much emphasis on personal bathing and hair removal and body odor as there is in America. So what does that say? That America is more civilized?

Well, I think so, but it isn't because of the number of baths we take. Hahahahah!

My mother says that when she was a child, bathtime was still Saturday night. Since she was the oldest of the ten children, she would get clean water, the others would have to bathe after her. About number 5, they would change water again. Of course, there was no indoor plumbing: the water had to be hauled bucket by bucket from the well.

I have heard that Queen Elizabeth I bathed once a year.

There may be one way in which Roman baths made them superior. In Story of Civilization, we were commenting on the relative scarcity of plagues in Rome such as swept Europe during the Middle Ages. Someone suggested it was because they took so many baths.

Coleen McCullough, a wonderful scholar, has written an excellent 6-book series of historical fiction, running from the time of Marius through multiple volumes of Caesar's times, and then past the death of Caesar into the beginning of the times of Augustus (Octavian). These books are well worth the time of any reader who enjoys learning more about Roman life and times. These books have have taken me into a more serious interest in Roman history.

A lighter, entertaining series is that of John Maddox Roberts, under the overall heading of "SPQR": Senatus Populusque Romanus, the Senate and people of Rome". Less serious, but filled with accurate details, which agree with McCollough. I'm "only" on Vol 5 of the series, and there are more to go. The hero is a young Roman Senator.

The last author I'd like to suggest is Steven Saylor. I've read his books all out of order, as I tripped over one in a bookstore. I think there are about 6 books about Rome, likewise Caesar's years and later, in detective-story-type format. Once again less serious but highly entertaining. You have to love the "finder" called Gordianus with his wife and former slave Bethesda, and his work with "real" characters ... but I won't give away the stories.

How does Harris compare? "Our" book is a great page-turner and is mostly accurate. But I truly dislike his attempt to compare the Roman empire with today's America, as others have said. There just is not much accurate comparison, in my opinion.

Ginny (post # 160) covered the toga-at-meals subject so well that I'll be quick on that. It was page 242 in the book, and in such an emergency, I doubted whether Admiral Pliny would feel the need to "dress for dinner" -- what do you think?

Roman baths were places for socializing and places for doing business, among other things. I wonder how many deals were made between a high government official and a Roman general at the Caracalla baths, for example. I wonder what was decided when two mathematicians and two engineers met at another bath. Many of these baths had libraries.

For various reasons, I don't belong to an American spa, though I'd like to. One I visited in Sonoma County in California showed me that wheeling and dealing and socializing (and even discussions about literature) take place in our "baths" in much the same way that they did in the Roman Empire.

Mal

I thought this book gave a fascinating insight into the engineering prowess of the Romans in the construction of the aquaducts as well as some sense of the social structure of the time. I visited Pompeii several years ago and vividly recall an experience I had there. I had wandered off from our tour group, into a side street of the city. I was completely alone and the silence was eerie and, as I walked down the street, paved with stones with ruts worn by chariot or other vehicular wheels, I had the distinct feeling that I was going to encounter a Roman centurion just around the next corner. krew

Hi Krew. We posted around the same time. I must get to Pompeii, you make it so appealing. Glad to have you here.

Here's a nice interactive site from PBS on Rome and water. Check out the various sublinks. There's an interview with (our) Peter Aicher as he walks through Rome. Among the other sublinks are one where you can construct a Roman bath, and another where you can construct an Aqueduct.

Roman Empire and Water

Mountain Rose, I partly agree with you about European criticism of America except that I don't think all of Europe feels that way.

We've all known individuals like Harris who are insecure around some or all people. That jealousy brings on knee-jerk attacks against what the other does or says. The truth is that such attacks lose their sting because the motive is transparent.

That's how I feel about Harris' attack on America - there is no sting. He says he's critiquing America but ... is he really? Like Ginny, I don't think he carried through with his preface. He never really got around to concrete examples. He could have, for instance, included specific news reports or statistics about America within the novel. Probably three American-directed examples, placed strategically within the text, would be all that was necessary to suit his supposed theme. I would love to have seen him include his outrageously wrong remark about voting in America.

Harris succeeded in setting the scene. I loved the feeling of being there in ancient Pompeii, and the aquarius and aqueduct, and the volcanic activity. The setting is Harris' strength as a writer. He didn't succeed in establishing characters, beyond the cartoonish and one-dimensional, that engaged me and his plot was too rudimentary.

Marvelle

Fascinating website about Caracalla, MARVELLE. Thank you.

Mal

I liked this comment, Marvelle:

“Did Harris see, and is he even aware, that there are millions of hard-working Americans who live ordinary lives, practice their religion, pay the mortgage every month on their modest three bedroom houses, do their best to educate their children and help those in need, people who have never been in Miami and will never come close to seeing a million dollars in their lives?”

It’s true that evil Ampliatus dominated the narrative. But in some fiction ALL the Romans are depicted as corrupt and greedy. Harris at least had one character who lived an ordinary life and did his best. In recent years some authors have given a more even-handed presentation: decent hardworking Romans, not just nasty ones.

Re: togas and meals. Right- some authors make the error of describing Roman men as wearing togas in all situations. In fact the toga was a heavy and awkward garment and it was usually worn on relatively formal occasions – something like a tuxedo or business suit - certainly not for casual meals at home. It would not be possible to recline and dine in such a bulky garment – it would end up looking like a rumpled bed sheet. Draping a toga so that it looked right was apparently an art, and some men had difficulty wearing the garment so that it looked right.

A few authors also describe Romans driving around in chariots, as if the chariot was equivalent to an automobile. They rarely used chariots except for racing and ceremonial occasions such as triumphs – and if you look at the rutted streets in Pompeii it’s clear you couldn’t drive a chariot around at top speed.

Meals…. A triclinium was a room with three couches (movable pieces of furniture, or, for outdoor dining, stone platforms with cushions). In the middle there was a small table. It sounds as if each dish was presented as a separate course on a shared platter; much of it was cut up so that it was finger food. Individual diners had their own wine cups but probably not their own plates; inedible food scraps were often thrown on the floor (sounds awful, but perhaps better than putting them back onto a plate shared by 8 other people, when you think about it). Look at: http://www.rebecca-east.com/mosaics.html to see a mosaic floor design that playfully mimics what the floor must have looked like after dinner. The dishes served by Ampliatus are similar to those described in the Satyricon, which intentionally mocked the pretensions and excesses of the nouveau riche. Normal meals for everyday people were much simpler.

Most people lived in tiny lofts above shops, or small apartments (perhaps just one room); these did not have kitchens or bathrooms (hence the reference to a “pisspot”). People bought bread from one of the numerous bakeries (bread was a large part of the diet) and got “take out” food from places called “thermopolia” (like the modern Italian tavola calda). The third photo down at http://www.rebecca-east.com/buildingstreets.html shows a thermopolium - these were even more numerous than modern day fast food counters.

Colleen McCullough gives a much more sophisticated view of ancient Rome. While the detectives of Steven Saylor and Lindsey Davis are fun, and both of them make use of some accurate historical details, they are deliberately anachronistic at times.

Overall I liked the Harris novel, but it was neither the most historically sophisticated nor the most enjoyable fiction I’ve read about ancient Rome. And as others have pointed out: his characters weren’t particularly well developed. What he did best: the description of the experiences people probably had during the eruption.

Rebecca, I think the quote was made by Mal. Also thanks Mal about the comment on the PBS Roman Bath site.

What I found lacking in Attilius was depth and reality. Even the best of people have faults. The main character in a novel - if well-drawn - must struggle with his/her faults within the plot twists and challenges. Attilius is too good to be true and, therefore, doesn't engage me? Now I was engaged by the real person of Pliny the Elder.

I forgot to post about the conger eel which unfortunately has teeth like the moray (from www.first-nature.com "beware the fearsome teeth and ferocious grip of the conger eel!") but the conger also has fins from which Roman jewelry could dangle. The conger is common in the Mediterranean. The pool would have both types of eels I think?

Conger Eel #1

Conger Eel #2

Various Types of Eels

Marvelle

I can remember running into freshwater eels in ponds and lakes in New England when I was growing up. Also met some of what we called "bloodsuckers." Enough to turn me off freshwater swimming for a while. At least in the cold Atlantic Ocean up there all I had to nag me were occasional jellyfish.

I also remember being in a restaurant near Providence, Rhode Island, with my husband and his family, where eels were served. My father-in-law ordered it. He said it was delicious, but it was full of bones.

Mal

Eel is a staple in sushi restaurants. I avoid sushi, but did have some (cooked) eel in one once. It was very good, but cloying: I couldn't eat very much.

Is America going the way of ancient Rome?

The Durants write of the four elements which constitute civilization: economic provision, political organization, moral tradition, and pursuit of knowlege and the arts. Let's use this premise to consider the USA's situation:

Economic Provision. Capitalism thrives and nourishes an economy which arguably provides for most, with government and private assistance, if not from cradle to grave as in Europe, and if not perfectly. In the US private enterprise is still favored over governmental involvement to bring subsistence, with a system of charities and government involvement for those who need more help. Again, not perfect.

Political Organization....We have a workable political structure, however messy and agonizing. After all the USA is a continuing revolution, it is said.

Moral Tradition....Our moral tradition is not sound. Consider the traditional family as central for the rearing of children, for instance, and threats to its existence, including divorce, gay marriage, and out of wedlock births (may now be diminishing in the US, if not in other countries.) Consider the diminished relevancy of religion in our society and discriminatory attacks against religion (the Pledge of Allegiance and whether to include Under God, the ten commandments removed from a public building, the cross eliminated from the Los Angeles city seal, etc. etc. It is wide spread.) As well, right and wrong seem increasingly immaterial to many.

Pursuit of Knowledge and the Arts....I believe that public education and so the pursuit of knowledge in the US is failing our children (and I am not alone in this belief, I know) from the early grades through the university. Many graduates of the K-12th grade system, not all, lack skills and cannot even speak or write the language correctly. Colleges have to give make up courses to help many students survive collegiately. Also, the educational system is politicized ; in one study democratic university educators were found to outnumber republican educators 10:1, and (my aside) they have academic freedom to teach about their preferences, and do so. Also the NEA supports the Democratic Party. The lack of political diversity in the schools, then, is a problem for the students and for our republic.

So, it appears to me that the USA does not completely meet the Durants' prerequisites for a thriving Civilization, and may be in decline morally and scholastically in the pursuit for knowledge.

Do you think that this parallels the decline of Rome?

The words, "under God", were added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954, exactly 50 years ago. People of my age and before managed to grow up to be fine citizens without that added phrase.

Separation between church and state is important in this country. Throughout its history Rome and other ancient civilizations had problems when from time to time priests were allowed too much power in the running of the government.

I fail to see how gay marriages affect traditional heterosexual marriage. I know some well-brought-up children who have parents of the same sex. That family unit is certainly preferable to their growing up on the street, or being wards of the state.

I see this country and the world in the throes of change. Though predominantly Christian, the United States is the home of millions of people who are not, and that number increases all the time. This fact cannot and should not be ignored.

Rome allowed citizenship and rights only to natural born Romans, with a few exceptions. I think that discrimination weakened Rome. What I see today is people who are recognizing the fact that they are not just citizens of one nation, they are citizens of the world.

There is a very good education system in the part of North Carolina where I live. My grandson here and most of his friends were in accelerated programs in which they had college courses in high school and a very good preparation for the colleges and universities they are now in. My grandson is a fine young man, the product of divorced parents who have been very conscientious about his upbringing and care. He is at an excellent university honoring in math, and lives in the "German House" where he and his housemates speak nothing but German. He will graduate after three years, not four, and as a second year student, he's already applied to graduate school.

Mal

Mal you mentioned “blood-suckers” or leaches as we called them. As a child I used to swim and vacation at Coneseus Lake in western NY State. Each time we played off the docks the leeches would be all over us. My dad used to extract them from our skin by pouring salt over them. YUK!!

When I enter a spa with other women I close my eyes with cucumbers over them so that I do not have to socialize. A bath (or spa time) is my private domain and I do not wish to indulge in idle chit chat, deals or political repartee. I guess I would not have made a very good Roman.

Wow what great comments and conversation, thank ALL of you, I'm loving this!

And Welcome, Krew! We are delighted to have you here, I want to comment on something you've said here in the next post!

More on what you all have said in a moment (jeez on those horrendous EELS!!! TEETH!!! 150 pounds? On the Conger ones? 250 pounds? Saying if they were to hit 750 pounds THAT would be a big one? ER… yes indeed, horrors!!)

Anyway, thank you Marvelle for the definitions for epigraphs, I am so disappointed in Harris I could cry hahahaaha

Indulge me here for a moment, (you know how it is with people and new enthusiasms and hobbies, how boring they are? Stay tuned hahahah)

Harris is all over the Romans here lots of research, right?

Ok so when he used the word "epigraphs" in interviews, describing his quotes in the Preface, I, of course, jumped to attention, conclusions and ASSumptions and we all know what that makes of me.

You see, there IS something called Roman Epigraphy? An even tho I have a friend who took two courses in it at the Vatican, it still did not resonate on me what it WAS?

Until June of this year. I have spent this entire summer arguing?

Over Epigraphy. And Roman Epigraphs?

You know the drill, it's the same for any body of knowledge??

There you are standing in front of some obscure tomb or inscription (or seeing it in a book) and somebody says, you took Latin, what does that say? Kind of off hand? Sure, what does it say? And you try to explain (to a very doubtful "oh sure" rolling of the eyes), that it's an art to itself, Roman Epigraphy? A science of its own. You get nowhere.

So this June when I stumbled entirely by mistake in Rome into the right wing of the National Museum (Thermae) and found an entire wing, floor after floor, devoted to Roman Epigraphy, I was so excited that even the photos I took are shaky, no joke. They are pathetic, but have copied the text from one below (and if you want to see the shaky photo you have but to ask) hahahaha

What IS Roman Epigraphy?

It's sort of the art or science of decoding inscriptions? Here, from the incredible LacusCurtius site, of the University of Kansas, is a wonderful fun place YOU can go and learn and try your own hand . They first present the item:

and then show how they have to create/ complete the letters and make the translation:

.

It's ever so fun, you can teach yourself, it's graded Easy to Hard and then you click on the light bulb ("Fiat Lux, " [let there be light] hahaah) and get the answer.

Here is a simply wonderful page, (which is kind of offbeat because part of it is missing so they had to create that, but the explanation shows you what all is involved!!! The Carrot and the Stick: see what all is involved in translating Roman Epigraphy!

Sometimes a letter stands for one thing, another time it stands for another, it's a world unto itself, or as the National Museum explains:

Every inscribed object is at the same time an
Archaeological document, a unique example
of writing and linguistics and a means
of communicating facts and ideas. The information
which is furnishes is only partly intentional
and explicit. The rest is of an unconscious nature
and not immediately apparent. It is the job of the
epigraphist to distinguish both types of information
and to use them for historical reconstruction.

One factor which distinguishes inscriptions from
other types of source-material, such as literary texts,
and also makes them irreplaceable, is their reference
to a different spectrum of writers and readers.
Whereas literary works (including historical tests)
were the product of a narrow elite, writing
principally for itself, inscriptions were the result of a
much wider patronage, comprising not only the more
elevated strata of the population, but also the middle,
and, to a far lesser degree, the lower classes.

So it's a branch, a very specialized branch, of knowledge, like all things, you never know it all. Latin is special in that you could spend your entire life studying it and never know it all.

So when I saw Harris say "epigraphy", I thought with the stupidity of my new passion, Roman Epigraphy, that Harris was doing a play on words here and deliberately using those quotes to salt the text and I thought if we were clever enough we'd find out, we'd use the quotatioins AS Epigraphy letters and seek for the message….I…..forgot entirely about the other definition (that's what finding out something new that everybody on earth knew except you does for you). Jeepers I'm deflated, and poor Harris with me. How I wish we had him IN here! Hahahaha

But onward, not necessarily upward, but onward!!!!!

PS: WHOOPS! Major storms here or as they say in Roman Epigraphy:

MTS.W.IIE
F.WSC.TF.TA.BW
TC
RSVP

hahaha If you don't have storms, carry on!!! (in the best sense of that word?) hahahaha till I can get back

Exports and Imports: America today imports more manufactured goods than it exports. Agriculture is also on a decline. We have almost exhausted our supply of natural resources. Just as in ancient Rome, America is now competing in many fields where once we had no competition.

Research and Development: I think this is one field were we do excel in, but other competitors are making head way in this field as well. In the 1960s we were at the head of the class when it came to manned-space flights, but when we became active in the Vietnam War much of the monies that was for research was diverted to keeping an army. This also happened in ancient Rome. We don't think of Rome as being scientific, but as we have seen in "Pompeii" there were many who were interested in science such as Ptolemey.

Government: American government was founded on the principle of the balance of power between the Executive, Legislature, and Judcial. Today that power is shifting toward the Executive branch giving the president more power than any other president. If this continues, we could have a problem just as the senators of Rome had outside influences so too does our present government.

Standing Army: So far the armed forces have been doing their job and being paid for it. But I fear that if the war in Iraq goes on much further than we will have a major problem. I'm afraid that it will be our children and our grandchildren that will suffer financially. Also, like in ancient Rome it only takes a few malcontents in the armed service to take over this country. I'm afraid that this country is ripe for a revolution and I think it will be sooner rather than later. Our troops are all over the world just as in ancient times and by doing this we leave ourselves vunderable to our enemies.

Everyone has made such wonderful points. Is America in decline? Or is it undergoing the normal and continual process of change?

I'd like to think about those epigraphs. If the preface is used by Harris as epigraphs, is that also true of the chapter headings?

An epigraph is an inscription on a tombstone, a message listing the deceased's greatest accomplishment? What we may see on modern tombstones such as "John Doe, loving husband and father. Rest in peace" ....?

GINNY, what if we took the first two chapters -- or any 2 side-by-side chapters and look at the headings? Are there key words and do they have additional meanings when interpreted with the use of symbols, thesaurus, (or) dictionary. Or the Roman code system?

Would we find a correlation between what is happening with Nature and what is happening with Man (in Pompeii and/or Roman Empire)?

___________________________________________

Another possible epigraph: beginning with page 114 and the lavish-vulgar dinner party.

There are mocking references by the dinner guests to the similarity between Ampliatus and Trimalchio, the fictional vulgar nouveau riche of Petronius' The Satyricon. Described is the death of Petronius at a dinner party, condemned by the Emperor Nero to a death-by-suicide. Ampliatus appears world-weary. He is disappointed in his expectations from life (such as: eating the fish that ate the man when the fish is unpalatable and he knows his guests will mock him despite his lavish entertainment).

All of this reminds me of the epigraph in T.S. Eliot's poem The Wasteland. The epigraph in The Wasteland quotes a drunken Trimalchio speaking to his dinner guests:

I myself once saw, with my own eyes,

the sibyl of Cumae hanging in a cage

and when the boys asked her

'What do you want, Sibyl?'

She replied: 'I want to die.'

Apollo granted the Sibyl of Cumae's wish for eternal life; but she failed to ask for perpetual youth and was condemned then to wither and decay beyond old age, an unnatural existence. She wishes to be released from this living-death, like the people of The Wasteland who have nothing to look forward to in life but death.

Marvelle

You know what I got up thinking? Think on this a moment: our modern…what do you call them, acronyms? Like TTYL (talk to you later) and ROFL (which is something about rolling on the floor laughing) and the ubiquitous LOL which I absolutely hate, never know if it means Lots of Love or Laughing out Loud, (probably the latter) are like Roman Epigraphy, huh?

I just noticed that. Of course (here's ONE more quote and then I WILL shut up) "One problem with Latin inscriptions is that they use a wide variety of abbreviations in the text, which are not all immediately comprehensible." Like LOL could mean Lice on Lanterns? Hahaahah

Anyway… on with the show?

I've hit PRINT PAGE and am not missing any of your fabulous points, I am enjoying your comparisons between America and Ancient Rome, a worthy topic. Let me ask you this?

Earlier Rebecca identified what she thought the story was about. We know where it takes place, and we know the background (or are learning it quickly and in a fun manner) but she said, one thing it was ABOUT was courage…etc.

Now let me ask YOU. When you speak of corruption and the role of religion, a declining civilization, and homosexuality, moral traditions, education, private enterprise, well let's face it: anything you can parallel, good OR bad with the Ancient Romans and America, can't you say the same of any civilization? So why make a point of America/ Ancient Rome? Are there any societies anywhere or have there been any societies anywhere free of these issues? Has there been a perfect society anywhere or civilization? If so, what was it? Even Paradise Lost has Heaven casting out Lucifer?

Where can we find a perfect civilization without flaws?

Andrea, that IS an interesting statement, have loved all the information here, Marvelle, and Malryn on baths, too. Love that link, Marvelle, "our Peter Aicher" is one I'd love to get in here, his book is out of this world. One thing, Andrea, in your quote, struck me, "this one precious piece of home."

It's amazing what coming across a "precious piece of home " will do for a tired traveler, I can kind of understand that. The baths represented civilization, after all, they take a lot of engineering and even the ruins are tremendously impressive, even now.

Malryn good post on the European view of America, and possible jealousy. I found, this time, while in France, talking about McDonalds, that the Mickey Dees were full, lined up to the doorways, with the French. French children, French parents, French teenagers, Frenchmen all. I saw one British couple in the entire time I sat in them (and I did sit in them…gasp~….).

So some of this supposed American bashing is coming from somewhere else, I didn't encounter any anti-American anything in 5 countries. In fact, in Amsterdam right at the time that all the news was coming out about the awful prison tortures, people were going by WITH American flags, including a bunch of very spiffy horsemen, the flags were affixed to their bridles.

Harris, of course IS British, you make a good point about the different stages of Roman government!

Mountain Rose, good point on all of Western Society, how about Eastern Society? Those Chinese Emperors were not exactly all saints, themselves?

I AGREE with you, to me, in the Western World, it makes much more sense to compare the British Empire with the Ancient Romans.

Love all the comments on the Baths and bathing, didn't the Tudors consider bathing bad for the health and that's why they kept on layering clothes and spraying perfume? Don't they say you could barely stand to be in the same room as Henry VIII? I can just imagine. Ahahah

Joan K, charming story of the ritual Saturday night bath. My own mother taught in a poor mill village in South Carolina, and, being the daughter of a doctor, thought she'd spread the news about cleanliness, so she gave each first grader a bar of soap and a toothbrush and toothpaste, only to be confronted by an angry mother who said, " I send her to school for you to larn her, not to smell her." That was a long time ago, GOOD GOOD point on the plagues, tho you'd think that all that communal gathering might spread the plague!

more….

Mippy, thank you for those additional books of historical fiction, one sign of the Renaissance in Europe was the turning back to interest to the Romans and the Greeks. When you look at the movies Troy and the Gladiator, and the Latin text of The Passion of the Christ, and all of these historical novels, I just wonder... if Latin and Greek are going to experience their own renaissance, and not only in America, you ought to SEE the section on Latin texts alone at Blackwell's in Oxford! This is a revolution, I am certain of it and long overdue.

Thank you for that page number 242, I dunno here, it looks like as close to an actual cena or formal dinner, as they could get, under the circumstances, to me. Harris even says that "it was not an ideal number for the point of etiquette," in that it IS a dinner party. Maybe he did not have any other clothes handy, it looks like he has dressed in "one of his friend's clean togas." (It's possible his friend didn't have a tunic that would fit him, him being so big?) I dunno, that's a very strange scene, altogether: it's a darkened, deserted villa, people are screaming, there is smashing, there's a monstrous cloud eight miles long and five miles high coming from the mountain, and I think Harris is trying to make the point that Pliny is deliberately "vanquishing fortune," the "Roman Way."

Guests for dinner, again, not sure, he may not have brought any clean tunics or a synthesis with him, but I sure am enjoying our efforts at unraveling it, thank you for that!!

Krew, welcome, I know just how you feel, thank you for sharing that memory of your trip to Pompeii. This year in Ostia I had the same feeling, in fact I had it everywhere I went. It was boiling hot, people were fainting in Milano, and I stepped off a broiling hot street into what seemed to be air-conditioning.

The sign said it was a thermopolium, or hot food vendor, very similar to one Rebecca had in her website (do go see that, it's fine) but it was cold inside!! There were, of course, no doors or windows (did you know the Romans did those small windows which faced on the street and were up so high so as not to let lots of light and heat IN?).

Well it works because it was very cool and pleasant in there, there were shelves for cold foods, and through an open arched doorway there was a nice courtyard with a table in stone where you might eat in pleasant weather, exactly what they now offer in the new self service cafeteria they have built there!! It was a step back in time, really. Welcome.

I LOVE that Nova site Marvelle put up, did you see that Construct Your Own Aqueduct thing? I love Nova, that is a great site, I can tell you if I constructed an aqueduct it would run ½ inch and collapse. I can't even fix a leak here in 2004. I'm going to see if I can do it on the Nova site! Hahahaa

Good point, Rebecca, on the character of the Romans depicted in the novel! Pliny and the girl seem to be the only ones who have any character at all, and they are not common people as you say, good reading!

Thank you also for all of the background information, lovely stuff!

Good point, Marvelle, on the depth of character, it would seem, wouldn't it, that the man who single handedly has to fight every antagonistic force in the world, might have a bit more depth, he did not engage me, either, unfortunately. But truly, the real people are so much more interesting, witness, the real Pliny here versus the fictional ones? I did not think Ampliatus "took over" anything, despite Harris's assumptions.

LaVerne, wonderful comparisons of Durant's four elements of civilization and how this book fails to make those comparisons, well done!! I don't personally see how anybody can compare a 200 year old country to a 1,200 year old one, especially if the older one has gone thru so many different types of government, myself, but…hey?

Malryn, would you be kind enough to ask your clever grandson how one says in German, 'The sewer has come up through the floor grate?" I really would like to know?

Andrea, are you kidding, you'd have made a perfect Roman, hahahaha

Scrawler thank you for those interesting points especially on the comparison of the armies, (is that true that we import more manufactured goods than we export?). I did not know that! Was that true of Ancient Rome?

Rome's armies were an interesting topic in and of themselves, I'm not sure they suffered many malcontents?

Marvelle that's a lovely thought on the epigraphs and comparisons, I am not sure, I don't think Harris was that clever, myself.

INTERESTING comparison to The Waste Land and Cumae, since Harris is on record as being moved to tears by the remains of the Aqua Augusta at Cumae! I have never heard of it, are there any photos of it anywhere you all know of? It IS fun to learn about new things@@

Let's look at some of the other things mentioned in the book, what struck YOUR fancy?

I'd really like to know this first one: when the book opens, Attilius is lying on the ground early in the morning looking for water vapor? Now this seems too carefully written to be a fantasy, but is it true? Would it work for us? I have long suspected the presence of springs here, if I get up and go out early and lie down will I get up with a water source? (or ticks? Hahaha)_

This passage is on pages 8 and 9, is it clear who the source for these quotes are? Hey, forget water dousing sticks, or rods, wouldn't it be a hoot if this worked?

OK again Harris mentions a "water organ" on page 18. They have just repaired the one at the Villa D'Este but I did not get to see it, do any of you know what a water organ is? Had you heard of THAT before this?

Let's look at some of Harris's own philosophies today, salted into the text? Let's start with this one:

Page 272: Men mistook measurement for understanding. And they always had to put themselves at the center of everything. That was their greatest conceit.

What do you think is the greatest conceit of man?

5.
The earth is becoming warmer—it must be our fault! The mountain is destroying us—we have not propitiated the gods! It rains to much, it rains too little—a comfort to think that these things are somehow connected to our behavior, that if only we lived a little better, a little more frugally, our virtue would be rewarded…

What is ironic about this statement?
--Is it deliberate irony?

6. We tend to associate sacrifices, or propitiation of the gods with ancient cultures. In 2004, do you think any person believes if he tries to live a better life he will be rewarded?
Are there people who still associate disasters with corrupt societies? Or as the will of God?

But here was nature, sweeping toward him—unknowable, all-conquering, indifferent—and he saw in her fires the futility of human pretensions.

7. Do you agree with Harris and his view of man's place in nature here? Who do you think had a better view of man's place in nature, the Ancients or those living in 2004?
What constitutes, in your view, "human pretension?"
Do you think all human efforts are futile?
What sort of philosophy is Harris espousing here and did he prove his point by placing the action during the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD?

8. The last sentence in the book is "But this particular story was generally considered far-fetched and was dismissed as a superstition by all sensible people."

Why did Harris end the book with this sentence, what does it mean?

Penny for your thoughts!

Acronyms for the epigraphs? Harris didn't create the epigraphs but is there a way he could arrange acronyms?

Another thought: what if we translated the chapter epigraphs into human terms in place of nature/volcanoes? (Harris wouldn't have to be too complex to do that.) Then see if this translated epigraph has bearing on the chapters? I thought of looking at 2 chapters because then we could see, if the method worked for one chapter, does it still work on the following chapter?

Marvelle

There certainly are people living right now who think there will be a personal reward for "propitiation" of God. I'm related to one such person (no details, as anyone can read this on line), who grew up as I did, in a home with only a little religious observance, who now tries to follow the "rules" to a T, and expects to go to Heaven and meet famous rabbis and converse with them. She will no longer eat food in my home because I don't follow the dietary laws.

Such a person is "sacrificing" in a socially acceptable way and expects a personal reward. Keeping the dietary rules clearly is less messy than the Roman way, sacrificing animals, etc., but is, in my opinion, a similar mind-set. Not everyone carries his/her religious obligations to such an extreme, essentially shunning their relatives, but thousands of people do so. I am not anti-religion at all, just posting a personal example.

#5 I think the greatest conceit of man is that he/she thinks they are all knowlegable and that they have almost a god-like quality to themselves. Knowledge and understanding go hand in hand. The more you learn the more you understand, but when you stop learning than you also stop understanding anything further. As man we were not born with knowing everything there is to know, so that's why we grow slowly increasing our knowledge and understanding as we go.

#6 I don't think the statement is ironic. I think as our natural resources decline it will be our fault what happens to Mother Earth and those who inhabit it. Just for an example: I always have enjoyed a nice salmon dinner. And when I came up to the Pacific Northwest I looked forward to continuing this treat for myself. But over the last few years the dinner has become more and more expense as the number of salmon has decreased over the years. Last week I went into my favorite fish place and they told me they were sorry, but they had no salmon because it had gotten too expense for them to buy. Then I read in my environmental magazine that this year has been the worst year for salmon fishing in the Pacific Northwest. Is this our fault? Yes, it is. Ten or twenty years ago we could have done something to prevent this, but now it's almost too late. And this is only one example of how our environment is changing. Look what happened to the forests? Certain species of animals like the Polar Bear in Alaska and alligator in the Florida will be extinct in another ten years. And as our insects, birds, animals, and fish go so do we. And yes the earth is getting warmer and it is our fault because we didn't pay attention to the atmosphere.

MARVELLE's suggestion that we look at the epigraphs at the beginning of chapters in human terms is very appealing, though I don't think I have the time or patience to do this right now.

I say I don't like puzzles, yet I spend more than half my time creating puzzles and working them out when I write. The trouble with me is, and always has been, that when I am given somebody else's boundaries I want to go beyond them and create my own. I wasn't satisfied with learning compositions by famous composers, I had to compose mine. I wasn't satisfied with the rules of art I learned, I had to create my own particular technique, which broke all the established rules. In college the rules I rebelled most against, and was chastised for questioning, were changed after I left to what I had originally thought. Story of my life.

What with one thing and another, like pre-publication work on one of my novels and yet another attempt to get myself out of this wheelchair and back on my feet, things are topsy turvy in my life right now, with the culmination of such randomness (I hope) the theft of expensive stereo equipment from my daughter's partner's truck, parked only feet away from this apartment addition I live in, which is attached to her house. This after I waxed eloquent in here about this town and the surrounding areas, which, compared to other places, are relatively crime free. Someday I'll learn not to brag. We've spent the day figuring out ways to enhance our security. My daughter made flyers alerting people in this countrified neighborhood, and has received many calls, including one from a woman who has lived in her home for over 20 years without ever locking her door, or worrying about intruders.

Mal

Sure. The epigraph at the start of the first chapter could be translated to human form by substituting the word "wars" for "eruptions", just as an example.

The greatest conceit of human beings is thinking they know the truth, I figure.

In the space of my lifetime, "the truth" has been changed numerous times. I've seen my values shaken and new ones put in their place, which were subsequently shaken. Since I see this as a time of transition, I see "now" values in the process of being changed, and new "truths" being put in the place of old ones all over again.

This is nothing new; it has happened throughout history. It no longer shocks me as much as the first time I became aware that what I thought was "truth" when I was growing up was not the same as what I perceived as a young adult or as a middle-aged woman, and now as a much older one.

Since the first concept of gods came from men, why shouldn't some of them believe they were and are gods?

In the Story of Civilization discussion we are at the point where the Durants are showing the change from Emperor Worship in Rome to the worship of Jesus Christ. The worship of Christ also evolved from one "truth" to another -- from worship of a Messiah to worship of the son of God to the worship of a kind of god and part of a trinity. This process took 300 years almost, and Paul was influential in that change. With the decline and fall of the greatest civilization the world had ever known before, came another powerful way of life known as Christianity.

Things are hypothesized and theorized, become realities, are proven through time, rise to a peak, decline and fall. I don't know why I feel so sad tonight about the fall of Rome. A couple of years ago I never would have thought about it.

Mal

Acronyms, GINNY? Can anyone figure that out? I'm trying a careful, in-depth look at the text to see if the general impression (or symbols or imagery or....) fits in the epigraph at the heading of each chapter.

Tentative, changeable thoughts on Chapter 1....

The first thing that strikes me is the rock and cross in this chapter. How biblical! Other instances too of words peppered throughout the text of this chapter [mass, ascend etc].

Is Marcus Attilius Primus one of the early Christians? He specifically marked the rock with a cross, he didn't think or make an X or some other mark - he thought of the cross on the rock.

Key words in the heading quote are eruption, repose/dormant, historic, volcanoes. I'll keep these words in mind as I look closer at Chapter 1 and into Chapter 2 with its own quote.

Possible translation of the key words from Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Eruption - a large-scale, rapid or spectacular expansion or bursting out or forth

Repose/dormant - sleep; temporarily devoid of external activity

historic - events known from the past

volcano - something of explosively violent potential; vent in the earth's crust from which molten or hot rock

and steam issue

Don't know yet if there is a symbolic meaning to any of these words.

Marvelle

The aquarius wants to be known by "Attilius" which apparently is a famous name in Roman history. Perhaps someone can explain his three names: Marcus Attilius Primus?

From my faulty memory, the Roman naming system is:

1 - The Praenomen [Marcus] is the first name

2 - The Nomen [Attilius] is the family name designating the person's gens (clan)

3 - The Cognomen [Primus], most Romans had at least one or more, (a cognomen could be a nickname or honorific title; or used to distinguish a particular branch of gens; and/or an adoptee would assume the name of adoptive father along with a cognomen which indicated the gens of his birth).

Marvelle

At the time of this book, the symbol for Christ was X. It stood for the first letter of the Greek word meaning Christos. The cross is a more recent symbol.

According to Eusebius, in 312 CE, the day before the battle with Maxenius at Saxa Rabra 9 miles north of Rome, Constantine thought he saw a flaming cross and the Greek words "en toutoi nika" = "in this sign conquer". Early the next morning he dreamed that he should have X marked on his soldiers' shields (many of these soldiers were Christian) with a line drawn through it which curled around the top, and on waking he did this. This was the symbol for Christ. (The source for this information is Caesar and Christ, the third volume of Story of Civilization by Will and Ariel Durant.)

Of course, Harris could have used the modern-day interpretation for the cross Attilius put on the rock. I'm inclined to think he knew the actual symbol of the time for Christ.

Symbol for Christ at the time of the Vesuvius eruption described in this book Mal

I also don't think Harris was completely ancient myself but will absolutely look at what he's doing in the book. His research is not complex certainly and I'm not interested in the penchant of thriller writers for codes so will leave that to someone else. I'll look at Harris' specific symbols.

The cross is an odd thought of Attilius - quite out of the ordinary language of a person marking a spot - specifically mentioned by Harris along with all the other symbology in chapter one. The rock and the cross are symbolic of Peter the Apostle. Peter, martyred in pagan Rome, was named [Peter=rock as Christian legend goes] by Jesus to be the rock of the new religion, the foundation. Peter was a fisherman before he became an apostle of Jesus. His symbols are the rock, boat, key, and water.

Marvelle

Frankly, my interest lies in the information on volcanoes and the aqueduct. Characters are one-dimensional and the plot rudimentary but the others (volcano and aqueduct) have been fun. Does anyone have photos of fountains as GINNY once asked?

Marvelle

I found the mosaic linked below for the S of C discussion, but thought people might like to see it here. The standard says, "I am the way. The truth. And the life."

Ravenna mosaic of Christ as a Roman soldier. Archbishop Andrea's palace chapel ca. 494-519

I've been thinking about this book, and want to throw something back into the ring that we brought up earlier, but first, here are some really stunning (or so I think) photos, one from the Nappo book Harris cites and two from a little Pocket book of Rome, very stunning, see what you think?

First up is this pitiful thing, this is a cast of a man who was discovered crouching against the wall of the athletics stadium, itsn't it pitiful? He is trying to hide his face from the fumes. I think Pompeii is a disaster like no other, would you agree? We have all of these stunning casts because of the more than 12 feet of ash which covered the town, and again, that's unique?

When an earthquake comes, people drift back in, can you IMAGINE what Pompeii looked like covered in 12 feet of ash? Nobody could come back? It would be a ghost town in every sense of the word. That is why the notion of it is so powerful and romantic.

Click to view chart of ash levels covering Pompeii on the left chart (note the comparison to the height of a man standing there) and the depth of debris covering Herculaneum (60 feet) on the right:

But it was worse in Herculaneum, where it was 6 layers of debris, the result of six surges of hot ash and gas and six mud flows, levels of molten lava and mud, to a height of 60 feet!!

Now here's something I don't want to make visible on the internet, but I'll put a link to it? Can you guess what I am? This was found in Pompeii and modern ones look an awful lot like it.

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Fountains, Rome. Click to enlarge

GINNY, in the chart depecting 12' level of ash compared to male figure - the left side must be the 12' but what is the one to the right?

Nice link, Mal. I found these; the first link describes the fountains

Fountains of Rome with Descriptions

Tour of Fountains

Easiest navigation of the last link is to bypass the thumbnails and start by clicking on first fountain listed as 'A street fountain. SPQR.' There certainly is a wide variety of fountains in Rome - great and small.

Marvelle

There is a reasonably good image of part of a Roman calendar at this site: http://webexhibits.org/calendars/year-text-Fasti.html

On this type of calendar, the days were represented by letters A through H. The Romans counted "inclusively". They had a market day once in each 8 day week, but they called it the "nundinae" or ninth day because they counted the market days at both the start and end of the cycle... talk about confusing! Commentary on the Roman transition from an 8 day to a 7 day week appears at: http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/dunkle/romnlife/romntime.htm

Dates under the Roman system were a horror anyway... they never used dates such as A. D. 79, it would have been something like, in the second year of the consulship of so and so and such and such.

There is not much evidence of Christian presence in either Pompeii or Herculaneum, except for a few ambiguous things such as a shelf that might have represented a cross in Herculaneum, and a sort of Pater Noster word puzzle inscription found at Pompeii that was probably put there long after the eruption.

Harris is neither the best, nor the worst of fiction writers when it comes to background research. His major interests were the aqueducts and the eruption, and he did best on those topics. I confess to an obsession with things Roman, so I've read a lot of different sources. Scholars don't always agree with each other, so some things are matters of (differing) opinion.

If I could go back in time, just for a visit, Pompeii before the great earthquake in A. D. 62 (or 63, both dates are reported by different sources) would be my choice!

We talked about the fact that at that time, the Roman religeon had become currupt, and Christianity was not yet widespread or widely recognized. It was actually the man who is identified as Pliny's nephew in Harris's book and who later became Pliny the Younger who is credited with (perhaps inadvertantly) starting the recognition of Christianity as a separate sect not under the protection of the Jews, and starting the persecution of Christians. MAL's post in the S of C led me to this site, which describes the scene. Click on the link at the end for the text of Pliny the Younger's letter to the Emporor and the Emporor's reply.

PLINY'S NEPHEW STARTS PERSECUTION OF THE CHRISTIANS

Rebecca, I can't figure out Harris' use of dating/time in the chapter headings. Don't know if he had a reason to confuse.

Pliny the Younger's letter to Emperor Trajan talks of the Christians as a "mad sect" and as part of a "bad and extravagant superstition" - sounds like the mention of superstition in the last chapter of Pompei.

Marvelle

What wonderful conversations here today!!! Am running SOO far behind! Sorry, I got interrupted this morning trying to gasp out this, and here is yet another different tack: what do you all think of this?

I want to revisit something we talked about much earlier, and that is the formula. We asked What is a Formula Writing? I'm going to put this here as a bit of humor? I am not trying to be sarcastic or hateful, but as I kept thinking about the plot, it occurred to me I've seen it before, and then before that, so I made up this silly little thing? Don't take it seriously, but note the questions for you all at the end.

I do hope I can get to your wonderful and substantial submissions next, I hate just to be an echo with nothing to add, so AM trying, but you all really are good!

Just had a LOVELY letter from a person who is reading but not posting on how much he/she enjoys this discussion, is learning a lot, THAT just made my day!!

But here's something a tad…er…controversial? So come on down, and let me ask YOU…?

Which door do you want?

Door #1:

Computer programmer with specialized knowledge is called in to fix a problem in one of the world's most sophisticated computers in an intriguing setting: Utopia, the world's greatest amusement park, in which things are suddenly going horribly wrong.

Dangers and dangerous evil people/ terrorists/ abound.

The protagonist manfully shoulders his duties and in breathtaking thrilling suspense, manages to save the female character and narrowly escape death. Lots of special effects accompany this adventure. . ---the plot of Utopia by Lincoln Chids

Door #2:

Young historians with specialized knowledge, employed by a tech billionaire-genius, are called in to fight an emergency situation, involving time travel, and fax themselves through a "quantum foam wormhole," into an intriguing setting: feudal France in 1357, in which things have suddenly gone horribly wrong.

Dangers and dangerous evil people/ crafty abbots/ mad lords/ peasant bandits eager to cut their throats, and catapults that hurl sizzling pitch over castle battlements. abound.

The protagonist manfully shoulders his duties and in breathtaking thrilling suspense, manages to save his companions and narrowly escape death. Lots of special effects accompany this adventure.---The plot of Timeline by Michael Crichton

Door #3:

Engineer with specialized knowledge in aqueducts is called in to fix a problem in one of the world's largest aqueducts, the Aqua Augusta, in an intriguing setting: the ancient city of Pompeii, 4 days before the eruption of Vesuvius in 79AD, in which things are suddenly going horribly wrong.

Dangers and dangerous evil people/ eels/ abound.

The protagonist manfully shoulders his duties and in breathtaking thrilling suspense, manages to save the female character and narrowly escape death. Lots of special effects accompany this adventure. ---the plot of Pompeii by Robert Harris.

All three of these books are recent, Timeline is the oldest, and as I think of them I can call to mind others just like them, notably Jurassic Park...I think we have entered the new world of literature? And we didn't even know it? …I don't know what to call it.

We all love to learn, and want to learn. We love to read books which expose new worlds to us, whether they are the world of technology (Crichton)( Child) or medicine (Robin Cook) or the ancients (Harris, McCullough), and it's fun to get that learning in a context we can enjoy.

But is it always at a price?

Let me ask you and put these up tomorrow:

1. If you have read any of Colleen McCullough's books on Rome or any other fictional accounts, what is the difference in her books and Harris's?

2. Can you think of any other book you have ever read which follows the plot outlines above? Are they recently written books or older ones?

3. What would you call this genre of books and does the reader always suffer in terms of literary competence, for instance: one of the reviewers of Crichton's Timeline asks, " Ah, well, who needs real characters? The plot is fun and watching medieval scholars discover what it takes to wield medieval broadswords is quite something."

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Penny for your thoughts!

History of Plumbing. Pompeii and Herculaneum

I generally stay away from books like the ones you mentioned, GINNY. If I want history, I read books by historians. If I want technology, I read books by "experts" about various aspects of that.

This is an aside, and I apologize, but I think these are interesting links about Roman engineering.

More aqueduct trivia

Sextus Junius Frontinus: The Aqueducts of Rome ( in English )

Pictures of Roman architecture, including baths, in Trier, Germany, which is 2000 years old

Page of links to articles about Roman engineering

Several illustrated pages about Roman engineering and industry

OK, apples and oranges. Scholarship over at least 20 years compared to a quick search of the Internet. Her (McCullough's) willingness to mail a "complete" bibliograph to anyone who writes to request it by snail mail, compared to "his" interviews in the press.

Her books are so detailed that the "Amadeus" effect occurs. What's that? Just like the movie and play by Schaeffer, we begin to assume the death of Mozart was a plot by Salieri. In other words, we forget it's fiction, and fell that it's history. That has been my experience reading the 6 novels she wrote on ancient Rome. It seems like I know real-life details about Caesar and friends.

But after reading his book, I'm very glad to have all the links in this discussion group to obtain a deeper understanding of that specific time, of their plumbing (great link), and many other cultural details.

We need them after Harris' quick read. However, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the book. The genre, incidently, is just historical fiction, in my opinion, nothing more elaborate.

Great links, All!!! Wonderful, am really enjoying them.

Mippy, with McCullough, when she writes about Caesar, is he the main character, a real person and are the books peopled with real or fictional characters?

We have tons of new good questions in the heading, and Scrawler (thank you for tackling that one, Anne, I have something to ask you in a sec) but Scrawler says Number 6 is not ironic, I think I am seeing irony, (but then again, don't put too much faith in that on)e, let's talk: what do YOU all think?

I apologize for the length of the heading but I like the way it looks! hashahaha

Lots of great thoughts and links. More fountains-

Fontana alla Cancelleria, Rome

Fontana Secca (sandhill) #1, Rome

Piazza Fontana Secca #2, Rome

Later... will be back to talk about heading questions and everyone's comments.

Marvelle

Collen McCullough's books are character driven books, while Harris's books are plot driven - we don't get very involved with Harris's characters, but we are involved with his plot. I think it depends on what you like to read. I read all kinds of books, so I like both. I think too that McCullough's books are written more for women and Harris's books will appeal to men more so than women because of its technical depth. I happened to like Crichton's "Timeline" but only for its fantasy feel. I got more involved with the plot rather than its characters. Not that I didn't care for them, but I couldn't really get close to them. Like someone else said it really depends or whether you like apples or oranges or maybe sometimes you like apples and at other times you like oranges.

We tend to associate sacrifices, or propitiation of the gods with ancient cultures. In 2004, do you think any person believes if he tries to live a better life he will be rewarded?

I think almost all the modern religions in the world hold at their center the idea that if man believes he can live a good and just life he will be rewarded. We may not have human sacrifices like in ancient times, but we do have symbols within our religious ceromonies that represent the sacrifice of man in order to receive a reward.

I believe that there are people who still associate disasters with corrupt societies or that the disasters are the will of God. I believe that people living in areas of the world that are still more agriculture rather than technical, probably still feel that when their crops fail it is because of corrupt societies or that God has willed it.

In answer to question #13, this is a speculum (for internal gynecological examinations) - not very different in design from the ones used today, and rather well made. Some aspects of Roman medicine (treatment of broken bones, for example) were fairly well developed. But they also had some practitioners who used extreme methods (bleeding and purging). One famous Roman's last words were "I am dying with the help of too many physicians!" The Galen theory about imbalances of bodily humors (blood, phlegm, bile) that justified some of their medical interventions (e.g. bloodletting was an obvious intervention for an excess of blood) continued to influence the practice of medicine right up through the American revolution, recall George Washington being bled.

Following up the musings about whether people believe they can make good things happen -- I think people want to believe that good things happen to good people, and that bad things happen to bad people (social psychologist Lerner called this belief in a "just world". This belief does not have to involve any religious ideas (although it can). Rabbi Kushner wrote a book: "When bad things happen to good people" to help with this very problem... when bad things happen to us they threaten our belief in ourselves as good people and our belief in the world as a just place where one's actions lead to predictable consequences. But: sometimes we have control over things... and lots of times we don't have control. We have to learn to live with things we cannot control. One thing that some religions offer is the hope that, through prayer or other means, we can ask for divine intervention - help to deal with things that we can't handle ourselves. It appears that many ancient Romans made sacrifices to a particular deity when they wanted something in particular (a sacrifice to Poseidon for a safe voyage, for example) and did not attend any regular services. In addition to the well known gods of myth (Venus, Mars and so on) they also believed in minor deities who guarded the household (the lares) and crossroads and doorframes. For the most part, ancient Rome was willing to adopt new gods from other cultures (they always had room for one more), provided that the new religion didn't interfere with loyalty to the emperor or involve orgiastic rites that even they thought excessive. When they encountered monotheism (Judaism and Christianity) I think they were genuinely a little puzzled. From contemporary writings about Roman religion it appears that some people took their religious beliefs seriously (the Isis cult involved a belief in eternal life, and it was particularly attractive to women and slaves). Other people had a more cynical attitude about religion, and felt that a public display of piety was politically useful. When Ampliatus had the temple of Isis rebuilt in the name of his son that was most likely for political advancement.

Re: McCullough - she created extremely vivid fictional characters, and kept their personalities and actions consistent with the known history (but also filled in some gaps with reasonable speculation). For example, she argued that one reason Cleopatra was so eager to be with Caesar was that she wanted her children to have "royal" blood (even though Caesar was not an emperor he was clearly a powerful figure). Interesting idea I had not seen elsewhere, purely speculative, but plausible.

Like other posters: I tend to read all kinds of fiction - I tend to prefer character driven fiction, but also enjoy action stories such as Pompeii and Timeline.

The whole issue of accuracy and inaccuracy of historical fiction has been hotly debated in many places. The Historical Novel Society http://www.historicalnovelsociety.org

has an online newsletter and mail subscriptions to review magazines that some of you might find interesting: I read each review cover to cover circling all the must-read titles. It's a matter of emphasis: I think of it as historical FICTION, with the emphasis on fiction; I don't mind if authors create new characters or use imagination to fill in (plausible) details where information is not available. I usually don't care much for historical fiction where it's clear the author does not know much about the period; it's just too jarring to keep seeing big mistakes - it destroys the mood. (Minor mistakes, ok, we all make minor mistakes!)

This is a terrific discussion; people have made such interesting points, and treated each others' opinions with respect.

From MAL's post: "In general, a Roman public bath was like a country club. For a small sum, it was a place to meet friends, go to the gym, play a few games, have a good meal, and spend a bit of time in a succession of cold, tepid, warm or hot baths. This was the concept at the beginning."

Rome is not the only place. I recently saw a movie, made in China, about a Chinese bath house that was used the same way. The government tore it down, leaving the elderly men who used it without a gathering place.

Like MAL, I usually avoid these books. I felt that Pompaii was worth reading and especially discussing (frankly, the discussion is better than the book) for the information and questions it raises but certainly is not great literature. That's ok; a lot of what I read is not grat literature. I read stuff at all kinds of levels and get things out of it. The good thing about Seniornet is there are discussions of all kinds of books, and always at a very high level. We are getting everything out of Harris that is there. (By the way, what happened to the plans to read The Iliad?)

Take a look at Dr. Ohlig in the tunnel through which Attilius and Corelia crawled to safety! Wonder if Harris, the non-academic did the same as Dr. Ohlig, the ivory-tower academic. First and last photos show Ohlig in the tunnel. The second photo is the front view of the castellum aquae (water tower) of Pompeii and the following photo is a side view. Abbreviated translation of this link immediately follows.

Dr. Ohlig in Tunnel

Translation of Ohlig article: One of the greatest achievements of the Romans was the impressive water system which clearly supplied the Roman 'way of life' and by which a 'civilized' Roman city was to be recognized. The discovery of Pompeii - one of the last remnants of the ancient water system - led experts to anticipate that there would be the connection between the building and the construction specifications of the Roman architect Vitruvius. Dr. Ohlig's recent excavations clearly show how the water system of Pompeii developed in the couse of the its 700 year existence and many differences from Vitruvius were discovered. Quote from a student as the differences were explored:

"here is not correct however somewhat!"

[Sorry folks, I couldn't resist being literal. The literal translation is how I speak on my can't-get-it-together days.]

Translation of Dr. Ohlig article (cont.): Ohlig built a model of the original on a scale of 1:5 to simulate the water system. He received permission to excavate in Pompeii and surveyed and studied the system - such as lime deposits from which information could be derived as to strength and speed of water flow. Expert assistance was provided by Professor Guenther of the technical University of Braunschweig, an authority in the area of the historical hydraulic engineering research.

Synopsis {English) of Dr. Ohlig's Study of Pompeii Water System

The last link is a magnificent but huge photograph of a street fountain in Pompeii. Be forewarned that this is a large photo.

Pompeii Street Fountain

Marvelle

I just finished watching a BBC programme titled: “Pompeii the last day”. So superbly presented based on what has, so far, been discovered. The effects so well done and realistic, I am still in shock.

Amparo

The Ohlig-in-the-tunnel link is a real find. Thank you, MARVELLE. It's a good thing Attilius and Corelia were as small as they were when they made this trip!

Mal

Marvelle, did YOU translate that thing? hahahaha I agree with Malryn, THAT is a find!! How much more pertinent can you get!

Thank you for that translation, I absolutely LOVE this, "here is not correct however somewhat!"

That needs to be our motto here in the Books! Hahahah

You are right, that was a giant picture, what a contrast, huh, in the fountains there and in some of the links to those in Rome, my goodness all that gushing water, and on a hot day it makes an oasis, Rome the city of Fountains and endless cold torrential waters, still in 2004. Thank you Malryn and Marvelle for those links.

Here is, from the Aicher book, unfortunately in black and white, a cross section of the

interior of another aqueduct channel.

As you can see, it’s huge, Aicher notes quite a bit about its construction on the inside, fascinating stuff, what comprises the ceiling, sides, etc., and that it’s possible for a man to walk upright.

This is the aqueduct known as the Anio Novus, first undertaken under Caligula and finished under Claudius, in AD 32-52, 87 kilometers in length, 190,000 cubic meters of water per second.

Here we can see the another interior of a water channel, this time of the mighty Aqua Claudia, (also featured on top, in the heading)

.

In looking at this, I believe you COULD get a horse and carriage in this one as was once described by the ancients. The Aqua Claudia, also built in 38-52 AD, was 69 kilometers long, and supplied 185,000 cubic meters of water per second to Rome.

IT is the mammoth ruins so dramatically presented in the Park of the Aqueducts outside Rome: Click to see the long arcade of the Aqua Claudia in 2004

I'm not sure what's wrong with this big photo, but

Click and marvel at the Aqua Claudia

Now to catch up with your fabulous posts!

I haven't dropped out, but my computer is down and I have not figured out what is wrong. I'm trying to catch up with the posts at my library, but the timing is difficult. I'll try to keep up.

Horselover, bless your heart, now that IS dedication, I wondered where you were, we appreciate it. Sometimes I wish I had the library's fast access, mine is slow as molasses. Lovely thoughts you all had, hold on...

Marvelle, I am thinking on the epigraphs that it's not there, it's a clever idea (or so I fancy myself) hahaha but I'm not seeing, (other than in the eels) that much careful writing. I could be wrong, are you all seeing carefully woven plot here? Or??

But I appreciate your depth of perception! And I have fixed the explanation under the chart also, it was not clear, isn't that something, tho?

Mippy, I do believe you are right about people expecting a personal reward for virtuous behavior. I wonder if we are seeing an upsurge of that in our country, certainly there are tons of shows about angels all of a sudden, it does make you think.

Do any of you know anybody (or have you ever heard of anybody ) who thinks that our travel to the moon produced many undesirable changes? It seems that superstition, well…what can we say about superstition? I myself must admit I am also a bit superstitious, but others might not call it that. Are any of us ever without superstition?

Oh Scrawler, I do so agree with you about man's greatest conceit, have any of you read The Screwtape Letters? That one might make a great one to read sometime. But are any of us immune from THAT?

What I thought was ironic about Harris's statement "The earth is becoming warmer—it must be our fault!" is that it IS our fault? Hahaha and he knows that, that's all you hear in Europe: Global Warming. He knows that. So he chooses to…..heavy stuff, to me. Heavy handed irony and that's not the only time I am seeing it, do any of the others of you see any instances of irony at all in this thing?

Malryn it's ever the way, the minute you "brag," you regret it hahahaah Sorry about the stereo equipment!

I liked your thought about feeling sad on the fall of Rome when you had never thought of it before. It's strange but until I read this book I had never thought of Pompeii in the way I do now? I could look at those casts and say, my , how interesting. I could hear the story of Pliny's curiosity and think my, how interesting. Now for some reason it all seems more personal, maybe THAT'S Harris's contribution?

Marvelle, great detective work in the epigraphs thing, I personally would have said Attilius was the opposite of an early Christian, he certainly does not seem to have any use for religion.

I love the mosaics and the one that Rebecca shows with the stuff on the floor, I love that!

Thank you Rebecca for that image of the Roman calendar. That's an intresting point Rebecca makes, if you could go back in time, just for a visit, which period would you choose? I like that. Did reading this book make you want to choose this period? I think I'll put that in the heading!! I want to think about my response but I'm pretty sure mine would not be Pompeii, what would YOURS be??

Thank you Joan K for that link to Pliny's nephew and his letters to the Emperor, I see that this article also says that Pliny began the persecution of the Christians and that no emperor before this had done so. I am not sure that is correct and I I think that's too simplistic. When I read Trajan's answer years ago I did not see his compliance "well that's okay," either, but rather something else, my understanding was (without looking this back up again) that Pliny drove Trajan crazy with his letters asking what he should do, trying to work his way into Trajan's favor, and some of Trajan's answers in his letters are clearly exasperated. I am not sure…maybe we should bring not the explanation here but the actual letters…do the Durants say Pliny started the persecution of the Christians? You have to remember that the Romans tolerated a LOT of religions. It was the Christian's refusal to worship the Emperor, to refuse to compromise with alien faiths and to demand an exclusive allegiance which caused their problems and their success, according to the OCCL.

This is yet ANOTHER thing I may have been incorrect on, I am interested to know more, (I am enjoying how these two discussions, the Pompeii and the Story of Civilization, are meshing, too, that's what we're all about here on SeniorNet: collaboration and learning!) and fun!

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Thank you all (I've said it before) but thank you all for these marvelous Links!! Pat has agreed to make us an entire HTML page of them and is patiently waiting for me to send them, so I hope to do that next!

I am really enjoying your comparisons of McCullough and Harris, thank you Mippy, I love that "Amadeus effect!!!" One thing that play and movie Amadeus did was to bring Salieri's music to the fore, there is a glorious new CD out of his music by a lyric soprano, can't remember the name but do have it and it's out of this world. People forget Salieri taught Mozart's children when they see that powerful film. (one of my all time favorites). I agree with you also about ALL of the information brought here, as usual, we're making a feast out of it.

So you're saying THIS is historical fiction and not an adventure cloaked as history?

Scrawler, does McCullough have good plot lines to go with her characters?

Oh good point, Scrawler!!!! I missed the sacrifice implicit in Christianity when I wrote that question, well done!

REBECCA WINS THE PRIZE!! Yes the mystery object in the heading question is a gynecological speculum and does the fact that it doesn't look much different today tell US anything? HMMMMM??? hahahaha OH I love that "I am dying with the help of too many physicians!" ahahahahaha THANK you!

I expect you all know that the leech has made a tremendous comeback in modern medicine?

Apparently the hateful looking thing has something in its saliva which anaesthesizes the wound so you don't feel it, ugg ugg ugg.

Thank you, Rebecca, for this:

I think people want to believe that good things happen to good people, and that bad things happen to bad people (social psychologist Lerner called this belief in a "just world".

What role does control play in the concept of a just world? Can those who do follow the "just world" theory who are not religious accept the lack of control?

Thank you for that link to the Historical Novel Society, let's all read that, I'll put THAT in the heading as well, and see what you think. The Cleopatra example was quite interesting, given that she herself was a Ptolemy, of royal blood, in fact married, wasn't she? To the Pharaoh, her brother?

The recent exhibit travelling the world on Cleopatra makes the somewhat startling point that she was Greek?

Bless your heart, I agree with your remarks on this discussion and thank you for your own valuable contribution!

Joan, good point on the Chinese culture. I bet there are more similarities than we think, I'm thinking of lots of strange parallels, like eunuchs?

I agree Joan, everything we read is NOT great literature, there's a place for all books here in our discussions, and I like your "we're getting everything out of Harris that is there." That's our aim!

What ELSE is there here?

The plans to read The Iliad are on GO! The Iliad will begin on October 1, if you all have any interest at all (now THERE is a book! ) hahaah we're using the Lombardo translation, you can and should use any you'd like; we have a guest Professor of Philosophy who is going to be present, and if you are seriously considering it, I beg you all to read Achilles in Vietnam first by Dr. Jonathan Shay, as he, too , will be our guest for that discussion in September! Lots to discuss here on SeniorNet in the Books this fall!

Marvelle, poor Dr. Ohlig there, I agree with Malryn, that certainly gives us a picture of what's going on in this book.

I'm sure Harris went down, if they allowed him to. And note the neato photo of the Castellum there also in Pompeii, that whole thing is a find.

Amparo, I wish I could see Pompeii: The Last Day, tell us about it, I saw one on the National Geographic and that pyroclastic stuff Rebecca was talking about had ME in shock for a few days, awful thing. There is a photo in the back of the text of the Latin 101 course that you all don't want to see, it's pretty grisly, from Herculaneum, (that whole text is on Pompeii, by the way).

I can't believe it! I am all caught up!! YAY!!

Take a look now at some of the questions in the heading here and try your hand at one or two or even suggest one, I'm going off to think about Rebecca's if you could go back in time for JUST a visit, WHERE would you go and at WHAT time? What fun, what would YOU pick?

GINNY, you aren't caught up! Here's another post. I think "here is not correct however somewhat" has been my lifetime motto. I get interested in something, I research/experience if I can, postulate, do more research/experience, re-postulate... and so it goes. I don't have failures/mistakes, only learning experiences. (G)

Horselover, sorry about your computer. I'm having difficulties too and it is shocking how much I miss the internet when I can't access it. Shocking. Please post when you can, you provide so much intelligence to a discussion.

I couldn't find a photograph of the Augustus Aqueduct's arches in Cumae. Harris wept under its arches? What's going on GINNY? Please tell, I've looked like crazy for the A. Arches he mentions and maybe I'm missing it.

Here's a photo of people under Arches in Cumae - following up on Mal's photos:

Arches in Cumae

More information on the Arches with travel directions:

Arches

From www.baiasommersa.it: "The Romans built a large cistern connected to the Serino aqueduct, providing an abundant fresh water reserve sufficient for the needs of the ships and the garrison in the Misenian basin. It is an immense rectangular tank excavated in the tufo bank 70 metres long, 25.50 wide and 15 metres deep. The vault is supported by arches and 48 huge rectangular pilasters arranged in four rows. It is lined with a thick layer of “pounded terracotta”, regarded to this day as an excellent hydraulic cement for lining cisterns; a hard thick crust of calcareous sediment from the Serino water can still be seen. This water entered it on the east side and as there is apparently no other opening, it must have been raised by means of water-weels up to the terrace and thence conducted to a large tank built at the foot of the hill on the left side of the port of Misenum, probably in a place called “Case Vecchie” as some ruins show. The water then was put in amphoras, water-skins or other containers, loaded on boats and transported to the ships in the port. The cracks and crevices here and there in the roof produce a strange play of light and shadow; clumps of plants and long sprays of ivy border the crannies or hang down through them, and in the damp penumbra of the aisles those azure rents and tufts of luminous green give one the sensation of being and moving in water."

Since one link mentions another monument I've included a link to it:

Sacellum of the Augustales

Marvelle

"Here is not correct however somewhat" hahaha I started to start every post with it, it's priceless, thank you for those new links. I have no idea however somewhat WHAT is going on with Harris and Cumae and the Aqua Augusta? If he says he wept under it, he wept under it, unless he's a weepy kind of guy. Have never been there and so can't say, and never heard of the Aqua Augusta till this book, but then again, until a few years ago I had never heard of the Parco degli Aquadotti either (excuse spelling) and so therefore I don't know everything, ashahaha (that's a shock to find out, huh?) (Don't SAY it) or to put it more succinctly: "here is not correct however somewhat!" ahahahah Thank you for those links, as soon as I send Pat the new ones I'll spend a lot of time on them, I am also VERY interested in Rebecca's site on historical novels and fiction.

Note: Mal's photos of Piscina Mirabilis are posted in #96.

GINNY, you don't know everything about Ancient Rome? I don't believe it; as a Classicist specializing in Latin/Rome you are as close to perfection of knowledge as a human can be. The Cumae links I researched called its ancient water system the Serino Aqueduct but I still couldn't find any photos of its arches at Cumae.

Will look at the latest posts and try to respond later....

Marvelle

Regarding genre, I finally found an outside source, saying this better than I can. The author Philippa Gregory, herself a novelist, wrote an outstanding Foreward to one of my favorite historical novels: Katherine by Anya Seton, 1954, and reissued in quality paperback recently. Seton's novel, which begins in 1366, is about the life and times of Katherine Swynford, the love of John of Gaunt, whose line carried down to Henry VII of England, as well as other royals. As a side bit of fun, Katherine's brother-in-law is Chaucer!

Gregory says: "... critics (in the '50s) came to regard historical fiction and romantic fiction as one and the same genre, and condemned both for being .. escapist vehicles ... suitable only for women readers ... But a good historical novel includes characters whose basic humanity engages our empathy, and convincing circumstances that remind us that the past is, indeed, another country." Later she writes, Seton "never sacrificed historical accuracy for a good story -- the history has to come first. ... (the) technique involved finding ... an historical record, then re-creating as a fiction, a vibrant, fascinating character to lead the reader into an imaginary but powerfully realistic world."

Did Harris succeed? We seem to be missing a truly fascinating character, unless the volcano is the one, as written in this board some time ago. Pliny is almost close, but we don't get enough of him.

On the Cleopatra point, you sure get over the Hollywood version of that character when you read McCullough. She says Cleopatra was not beautiful (no Elizabeth Taylor, anyway), but was incredibly smart. In order to have a child to follow her she needed to become pregnant by a "God" (usually by Pharaoh) but her brother was only 13 and she hated him anyway. Therefore Julius Caesar was as close to a God as she could snare, and the detail of marriage didn't really matter to him. In the McCullough version, Caesar never intended to spend any "quality time" with Cleopatra, (whose ancestry was Macadonian, incidently). He waited to see that she was pregnant, then headed off to the next conquest.

To get REALLY off the subject, this brings up an odd parallel to Elizabeth I of England, who of course never had a child, which was perhaps because she could never decide on a husband who would not let her remain "king". Her line of course died out, as did Cleopatra's, after the murder of her son. Each was indeed a smart, absolute monarch, which was rare for a woman.

Rebutting Post #210: does everyone but me agree? I've been searching back to find and to discuss this detail since it appeared. How can anyone think that a women doesn't like "Techy" books? Or adventure books. AAARRRGH! As a woman, I feel I have the right to enjoy highly complex, technical writing whenever I can find it! Am I alone out here?

Yes, I've read the "Screwtape Letters", but its been awhile.

Yes, McCullough has very good plots to go with her characters. My personal favorite was "The Thorn Birds" and you reminded me I've been wanting to read "The October House" which is about Casesar and Cleopatra.

Do you agree with Harris and his view of man's place in nature here? Yes, I believe we (man) have to be in harmony with nature in order to live. I think the ancients had a better view with nature because they were closer to it and depended on nature for their success or failure. I'm not sure that they understand nature's ways however. I think with our technical background we have only begun to scratch the surface as to why nature reacts the way She does.

I think that Harris certainly got our attention by using the Vesuvius eruption of 79 AD. I think part of Harris's phliosophy was that man should have a healthy fear of Mother Nature, but he also showed us that with knowlege of how nature works we can better prepare for disasters. For example, we are able now to predict earthquakes in certain areas and prepare the people who live in those areas. Even a few moments would give people a chance to get out. The more knowledge about fire, flood, earthquake,etc. the better off we will be.

I don't think any efforts are futile on our part. But again I can't emphasis enough that we must learn to be in harmony with the world that surrounds us.

I read the correspondance between Pliny (remember, it's not OUR Pliny) and the Emporor as a typical beaurocratic correspondance. Pliny, the beaurocrat, didn't really want to kill the Christians, but is afraid of getting flak from the citizens, and wants someone to tell him "No". Trajan doesn't want to either, but doesn't want to say so, so drops hints -- find a way to make this disappear.

If this really was the precedant for killing the Christians, it's a tragedy. More likely, they were rubbing people the wrong way everywhere by not contributing money to the religeon as others had to do, and someone would have started it.

After agreeing with GINNY that Harris's plot is a formula, I thought some more about it. That formula would fit many of the great epics (more or less): The Iliad, Beowulf, I'm sure others. Yes It's a formula, but one that seems basic in many societies. (I'm not arguing that Harris's book is on that level; of course it's not. Just that we shouldn't think less of it because it follows the formula).

It is quite true that men are physically much more stronger than women. However, most women’s superior logistic mind makes up for lack of physical strength… if only woman was given a chance. Cleopatra and Elizabeth I both had to fight to get what they wanted. Their weapon: their mind.

Amparo.

Thinking about GINNY's post #204 outlining formula thrillers and the recent posts. What is missing in the thrillers is the human condition? The thriller focuses on action and (see #204) there is a pre-determined flow to the work.

I'm having difficulty expressing my thoughts here. I don't normally read thrillers so this is a new arena for me. I'm thinking.... Formula is different from design - like a pre-stamped cardboard puzzle of flowers is different from a hand-drawn floral art. Picture puzzle pieces lock together in one specific, pre-determined pattern; the hand-drawn art can be done any number of ways.

IMO Harris' Pompeii isn't similar to the design of the Iliad or Beowulf. And Harris' formula thriller is plot-driven (although the plot is shaky) while the others are character-driven (e.g. the wrath of Achilles) that speak to the human condition.

Mippy, wonderful point about the nature of a good historical novel with characters whose "basic humanity engages [readers]".

Marvelle

Maybe Harris' thriller Pompeii is issue-driven rather than plot-driven? He is a political writer after all.

Marvelle

Well, what are the issues? The attempt of human beings to conquer nature? It is human nature to want to explore what's outside ourselves and our personal realms, like what's on the other side of the mountain, and what's out in space? Rich vs poor and vice versa? Religion and all that implies? The misuse of power? Greed, sloth and other such negative human characteristics?

Christians were considered relatively harmless at first. Jesus was crucified because he was a rabble-rouser, a possible danger to the government. As the number of Christians increased, the pagans began to be worried. I mean, this was a big constituency that could sway thinking about the government, not just one man with a handful of followers. Constantine was well aware of this, and he wasn't the only one. I posted in S of C that he was a good businessman and a good politician at the same time. Robby Iadeluca paraphrased what he said is a possible Chinese maxim: "A leader is a person who watches which way the people are going, and then gets out in front." Wonder if this applies to writers who want their books to get on best seller lists? Formula writers?

Up to the time of Constantine, Christians were considered to be atheists, against the emperor and against family, a threat to the status quo. So feed them to the wolves in eels' clothing, and get rid of them.

Rewards. Well, if your boss doesn't reward you, and good things don't come your way during your life, I suppose looking forward to the pot at the end of the rainbow when you die is a logical progression of thought to some. It takes a lot of strength and maturity to be satisfied with the rewards one is able to give oneself.

I wonder what Robert Harris would say if he knew some of us think he indulges in formula writing? After all, he had to do some research to be able to write this book, and I feel sure he worked hard on it. What interests me is that his best-developed character (Pliny) had been a real, living human being, who left something behind as clues to who and what he was. Maybe this writer didn't have the imagination or creativity to get inside his characters, or perhaps he didn't allow himself the time? He certainly got inside an aqueduct and a volcano, didn't he?

That's enough of random thoughts from me this night. I've been working very hard, finally finished a major project, and rewarded myself by watching "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil", a credit to the book. That Clint Eastwood is a fantastic talent. He directed "Mystic River", too, and I'm sure Dennis Lehane was pleased with the result. I know I was. And I learned that Eastwood did all the music for that film.

Mal

Thriller writers know the formula and aren't ashamed of it. It takes skill of a particular sort to write thrillers. They require a high-level of research ability -- all that specialized, intricate, and/or arcane knowledge of protaganist. Imagination, beyond the initial idea, isn't required since the writer follows the pre-determined formula with standard plot and minimal characterization is minimal.

Before I can talk in broad terms of issues, I have to get into the text to see what's happening. Harris is a writer of issues and I feel readers should be altert to possible issues in the book. Here's one thing I found:

Pliny the Elder, Petronius, Peter the Apostle, Marcus Attilius Regulus were real people and all found a way to 'Die Like a Roman.'

These real people either are characters, are mentioned (Petronius) or alluded to (Peter the Apostle, M. Attilius Regulus) in the book. The fictional character Ampliatus, and others, also died like Romans.

How does one die like a Roman? From the examples I'd say it's someone who engineers and orchestrates their own death. They've written their own epigraphs. They're brave but resigned, even eager, to die.

Marcus Attilius Regulus - died like a Roman. He is the ancestor that gave fame and honor to the Attilius gens. This is why the aquarius was proud of his gens and chose to go by that name. M. Attilius Regulus was a Roman general and statesman who died c. 250 BCE in the 1st Punic Wars. He'd been a prisoner, made a slave, of the Carthaganians and was sent on a mission to Rome, with Carth. emissaries, to plead for peace on behalf of his captors. However, he argued against making peace in front of the Roman assembly. When they implored him to stay in Rome, he refused saying 'I'm old and I don't have the time or strength to regain my former life as a respected Roman since I've been made a slave." He'd given his word to his Carth. captors that he would return to their country. He returned to Carthage as their slave and was tortured to death.

Peter the Apostle - died c. 67 CE as an old man. He'd lived a long time in Rome and, although he'd never be considered a Roman by Romans he acquired some of their philosophy. [I don't know if Harris is religious, in fact, I rather doubt he is but he used what was available in that time period.] Peter was an apostle of Jesus and his traditional symbols are the rock (rock/foundation of Christianity), the boat (fisherman, walking on water), key (keeper of the keys to Heaven) - all of these symbols are in the novel Pompeii. Peter was a preacher. He wouldn't shut up? Not even when he lived in Rome many many years as bishop. Because Peter was so public with his Christianity and his attempts to convert others to his faith, the emperor Nero ordered his execution. Even in prison, and under torture, Peter converted some of his jailers. Peter was crucified in Nero's Circus but - not wanting to appear as if he aspired to be like Jesus with his 'glorious' death - Peter begged to be crucified upside down, which he was.

Ampliatus, the fiction character in Pompeii, is world-weary. We get that in the dinner scene with mention of Petronius and his death and the instant recognition of the Sibyl of Cumae's wish to die; we get that with his disappointment in the less-than-exciting death of his slave, despite his anticipation. Ampliatus wants to face out the danger of Vesuvius. He did it during the earthquake yet .... he tries by force to keep his slaves, important servants, paid-for-friends, family in the new Baths -- all, all symbols of his value. This is his epigraph if he dies, to be surrounded by his symbols of status.

This may be considered a major issue in the book. I'm wondering if Harris is giving us a political statement - that all of man's institutions have a built-in obsolesence, and it is false pride, to think otherwise.

M. Attilius Primus (the First) is the new man then. The word Primus is reminiscent even of the first words of the Lord's Prayer, Primus Inter Pares (First Among Equals). M. Attilius Primus is a new sort of Christian and Roman who isn't resigned to or eager to die. He is an expert in technology, he has scientific curiousity, but unlike Pliny the Elder he uses it to survive. He isn't a chicken, despite Ampliatus' accusations, and he returns to Pompeii to save Corelia. But we are left with the realization that even the New Man will become an Old Man one day. This is part of what I think the text is saying.

More later...

Marvelle

I wasn't aware that Robert Harris was known as the author of thrillers. For some reason, I thought Pompeii was a departure from his earlier novels. Has anyone here read his Fatherland, Enigma, or Archangel?

I found this statement by him today, which answers some of my questions about the character development in Pompeii.

"My basic advice when writing is to get three things happening every two pages. Keep things moving. Think about the book from beginning to end and see the key moments. I recognise my strength and my weakness as a writer. My strength, if I might say so without being immodest, is that by and large, once people start reading they can't stop because they are drawn on.

"The weakness of course is you don't really hang about and develop characters too much. You don't stop for long lyrical passages. I do like stories. I like the business of telling a story. Having said that there is no reason why a story shouldn't carry a lot more freight with it. You can get at a truth as a novelist in a way that you can't as an historian. I think you can bring things alive, the sense of fear, prickly fear, the sweat, the smell of the place and so on."

Source:

BBC -- Books by Author

Mal

"Most persistent of all was the legend of a man and a woman who had emerged out of the earth itself at dusk on the day the eruption ended. They had tunneled underground like moles, it was said, for several miles, all the way from Pompeii, and had come up where the ground was clear, drenched in the life-giving waters of a subterranean river, which had given them its sacred protection. They were reported to have been seen walking together in the dirction of the coast, even as the sun fell over the shattered outline of Vesuviius and the familiar evening breeze from Capri stirred the rolling dunes of ash.

But this particular story ws generally considered far-fetched and ws dismissed as superstition by all sensible people."

I think the last line was said in such a way that the author was really making fun of himself, by making fun of his characters and perhaps even making fun of his readers - sensible people won't believe such a story [let alone read it]- he's saying.

But the previous paragraph brings home his belief that nature not can not only destroy, but at times save humanity. In this case the couple was saved from the head, ash, and stones from the "live-giving waters of a subterranean river, which had given them its sacred protection".

Regarding the final sentence

I think -- as if the book were a movie script -- the author is setting us up for a "Part II: After the Eruption".

The two live, and go on to take part in the next phase of Roman history ... perhaps like the Albert Bell novel, with Pliny the Younger ...

What do you think?

There are four basic factors present in almost every story: milieu, idea, character, and event. Sometimes they overlap and sometimes they are at the center of the story.

For example: "Gulliver's Travels" or "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court" is not to explore the soul of the character or resolve a tense plot, but rather to explore a world that is different from our own.

Murder mysteries use the "idea" formula. Someone is found murdered, and the rest of the story is devoted to discovering who did it, why, and how. In Agatha Christie novels, Raymond Chandler or Ross MacDonald novels the author's only requirement is that there be a fairly large group of people who have motive enough to do the deed. Other than that we don't learn that much about the characters. More recent mystery novels have gone deeper into the characterization of their people.

The character story is about a person trying to change his role in life. It begins at the point when the main character finds his pesent situation intolerable and sets out to change; it ends when the character either finds a new role, willingly returns to the old one, or despairs of improving his lot. Most romance novels have this concept as part of their story line. "Rebecca" I think would fall into this category.

Every story is an event story, but the story in which the events are the central concern follows a particular pattern: The world is somehow out of order - call it imbalance, injustice, breakdown, evil, decay, disease - and the story is about the effort to restore the old order or establish a new one. It begins when the main charcters become involved in the effort to heal the world's diesese, and ends when they either accomplish their goal or utterlly fail to do so. Examples of these stories are: "The Count of Monte Cristo," "Lord of the Rings," and Wuthering Heights."

So whould "Pompeii" fall under the milieu, idea, character or event factor or are there several concepts within our story?

I found a really good illustrated article about the urbanism of Pompeii. Below is a link to it and some links to pictures in it.

Castellum Aqua

Fountain Via del Gallo

The article: Learning from Pompeii -- Urbanism"

Some facts and myths about the hydraulics of Roman aqueducts

WOW what a big day we've had here on SeniorNet! We had a Learning Center (SeniorNet runs Learning Centers, too) from Waco Texas come in this morning and it was just electric. Naturally I put a link to this discussion to show them YOU and an example of what our discussions are like, AND they liked us!! Whee!!! I've been thinking about the "forumla" thing and have more thoughts to share but it may be in the morning, what a good discussion you all have made of this!

Joan a very reasoned explanation of some of the other factors that might have been motivating the background at the time of Pliny/ Trajan, well done, more more.....

What I'm waiting for is Rebecca's book, which should arrive tomorrow.

Yes, MIPPY, there's quite a hook at the end of Harris's Pompeii, isn't there?

Pages of pictures of Pompeii

MARVELLE: of course at one level it's absurd to compare Harris to Beowolf or the Iliad. I'm just saying that all these books have in common the elements that Ginny identified in her description of the formula: a man responding heroically to a threat. That is a basic point of drama, and it's not THAT which distinguishes between great literature and formula. We call Harris formula because he doesn't use this plot to illuminenate the human condition for us.

Although I think Pliny is more memorable than you do. I see by my post above that I have sort of adopted him, and I think I will find him memorable. But this may be more his strength than Harris's.

MAL: a fantastic tour of Pompaii in your last link. I looked at all 80+ slides and feel as if I have been at Pompaii. Thanks.

Thank you for all the wonderful links, Everyone, Pat has put them on a splendid HTML page in the heading, thank you, Pat, a lovely resource for those who want to learn more when reading this book.

Marvelle, perfection in knowledge? Hahaha "here is not correct however somewhat" in spades. But I appreciate the thought, I'm glad you brought it up! Gives us some time to talk about a lot of misconceptions!

Latin/ Roman Culture/ Roman History/ Classical Etymology/ Classical Philology etc? Listen, the first thing you learn when you major in Latin is you can never know it all? You could spend the rest of your life studying Latin alone (remember the long length of the Roman Empire) and all the iterations of Latin, including Early Latin (Plautus and Terence) Classical Latin, Medieval Latin, Ecclesiastical Latin, all different. There are texts yet to be translated and new scholarship and NEW findings EVERY DAY. EVERY DAY a new find!

I retired in 1981, and since then the great minds of that field keep coming out with new and different discoveries, which then CHANGE what was previously thought as gospel? I mean there is no Roman Museum you can go in any more, no Roman fortification, that you don't see "It was formerly thought that…" well , ah, YEAH, we sure did think that and teach that, but no more. So it's a living thing to be a "dead" language, and it's truly one of the most exciting fields any person can ever embark on. And that's Latin alone. Hahaha

In order to understand the issue of Pliny and the Christians and Trajan, you'd need a lot more? You'd need an expert in Roman history and another one in Religion and you'd need some expert advice, like all things, the issue is extremely complicated and those last two are not my field.

(And I'll tell you another little secret?) I don't know any Latin teacher who will translate mottoes OR tombstones on demand? Latin mottoes (like a state motto for instance) are almost always taken from an ancient text, out of context, and don't mean what they appear to?

My famous story (and true) is one day in class at the university where I taught a student brought up the motto over the girl's dorm, Non Sine Pulvere, and wondered what it meant? I nearly fainted, was in my first year and thought holy cow, not …without…pulverizing? Hahahaha WHAT?? Er…hahahah I said I'd go ask hahaahahaha

Turns out it's from Horace I think, and referred to a gladiatorial combat? In which the combatants raised a lot of dust while fighting, and it's sort of a "no pain no gain," type of thing, that you can't get something without a lot of effort? But literally it means "not without dust?" hahahaah (good motto for my house)? Hahaha

That was the first and last time I translated a "motto on demand," and I certainly don't "do" tombstones, and you will be hard pressed to find too many who will, as the rappers say, WORD… hahahaha more…

I am finding this book discussion a treasure in many way. Each and everyone post seems to have something new and I am eager to learn. Thank you all for those fantastic links of pictures and data. I was trill to bits and brought back to very early childhood when browsing “ the Cole’s family” link as suggested by “Malryn (Mal)” on her post 242 and came across “ROTAS square”. I was no more than 7 or 8 years old and my older brothers tried to show me its shrewdness. The very beautiful pictures of present day Pompeii have put lump in my throat. Once again I cry for all those who died such terrible death and the lose of that magnificent but doom city.

Amparo.

Mippy (love that name!!) Wonderful quote, thank you so much for the Gregory!! DID Harris succeed? That is an excellent question! What do the rest of you think? I have spent a good bit of time thinking about Joan's question on they are all formulas, and have been frantically applying "the formula" to every book I read.

I found, for instance that Peter Benchley (sp) tends to follow them, and I LOVE Peter Benchley (Jaws). Have you read his books? Giant octopus, Giant squid, he's on about the ocean but his books have a serious scientific foundation.

How about Robert Preston whose The Codex ( billed as an "archaeological thriller") about the Mayan civilization I'm reading now? I absolutely love Robert Preston and Lincoln Childs. Preston is a former professor of English at Princeton who worked in the Museum of Natural History In NYC. As a result of his knowledge there he wrote Relic, which you'd have to call horror/ thriller, but which actually, if you read it, teaches you a lot about the workings of that and other big museums. Likewise he and Childs wrote one about the subways of NYC and I dismissed it as fantasy till I found out it, too, was based in fact.

Last night I compared the opening pages of The Codex to Harris. There's a big difference. We again are thrown immediately into the situation, we're not out looking for a spring at dawn, we've arrived "home," all three of us sons, to find "father" is missing and the big iron gates swing open at our touch, here is adventure but we're firmly in the head of one of the sons, in just 3 pages... we think we understand him. I don't feel that connection with Harris? Did you? In fact I would be hard pressed to even describe Attilius?

Now Mippy when you speak of books of technology and ask if you are alone, are you talking about Michael Crichton and Robin Cook type of things (both of whom I read all of) or….can you give us a title or two of the kinds of books you read so we can see if you are, in fact, alone in your liking them?

GOOD point on Cleopatra and why she wanted Royal Blood, did you all know the traveling Cleopatra exhibit mentions several children by Caesar?!?

Not just Caesarion?

Scrawler, great points on the comparison of the ancients and their view of nature and ours!

Amparo, good point on the strong will of those leaders, calls to mind the famous quote of Elizabeth I, but tho I have the body of a weak woman I have the something (heart?) of a man or something. We also forget the incredible Eleanor of Aquitaine, you don't hear much about her but she sure was powerful, especially for her times.

Marvelle great points on the difference in formula and design and character development!

Malryn, funny, I expect Harris knows he writes by a formula, it wasn't so long ago that publishers gave Romance writers an outline, talk about formula! I've seen it.

I agree with you that the best developed (certainly the most sympathetic) character is Pliny who had been real. That said something to me!

Talking about "Forumla," I once had a huge interest in the "Gothic Mystery," till I realized they were all the same, different characters and situations, but essentially the same book every time.

Funny, Malryn, great minds run together, I just re-watched the movie Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, myself. I was struck this time by the veniality of the characters, they are all a mess? That was what hit me this time. I love Kevin Spacey and am very remotely related by marriage to that awful guy who played the piano and stole electricity, Joe Odom was it? Whoever, but this time they all looked dated, to me and very slimy.

Interesting on the "Die Like a Roman, Marvelle! I really liked your take on what motivated Ampliatus, we've not said too much about him, that's a very good point!

Malryn, good good interview, yes he didn't "hang about and develop characters too much," so what did he rely on???!!! "You don't stop for long lyrical passages?" Huh? I'd really like to see Stephen King's assessment of Harris, King can delineate a character in a few lines.

Scrawler, Oh my you think the author was making fun of HIMSELF in that last line? WOW, thank you for that, what do the rest of you think? WHO is he making fun of there?

Oh and Mippy, Pompeii II? If so I won't be reading it, but will YOU all? I think you're right!

haahah on "with Pliny the Younger.." let's fervently hope not!

Scrawler, I know you are a writer also, if you have those 4 basic elements in all stories and if there are no new plots, then WHAT are the elements that make a really good book and does Harris have them in this one? We ought to make a list? I'll put THAT in the heading also!! You mention Agatha Christie. That woman can delineate a character in a few words!! So would "Pompeii" fall under the milieu, idea, character or event factor or are there several concepts within our story? Wonderful question!

This is great, many new questions and points of view and I'll get THEM up and I bet you have more you'd like to mention, let's hear from you on any, all or any new items you'd care to bring up today!

AND I'm stil thikning about Rebecca's question, if we could go back in time just for a VISIT (and be sure we could get BACK) then where would you want to go? It's amazing how dangerous a lot of what we consider the romantic ages really WAS? For me, it would depend on WHAT I went back as?

And here's something else to consider, think on this one, this just occurred to me. IF you write a book and the characters are barely sketched out? Perhaps you do that deliberately? So that the reader, whoever he may be? Can then inject HIMSELF into the plot, identify that way, be he man or woman, without too many complicating detalis?

For instance, I imagine that none of us consider ourselves or can relate to Ampliatus, and while we admire Pliny and would wish we were like him, he, too, is firmly drawn so that he shuts us out. Agatha Christie was famous for not DESCRIBING physically her characters but instead put you in their heads with universal truths, I am wondering if these new adventure/thriller (and we have not decided IF indeed, Harris HAS written such a thing here, at all) things deliberately do this so as to engage the reader vicariously? What do you think?

In my opinion, Robert Harris's greatest strength in this book is to be able to tell a story that's been told over and over before and to keep suspense high about an ending we all know.

He has made an aqueduct come alive in a way nothing else I've read about aqueducts ever did. He has made an engineer approach and solve the mystery of the aqueduct with real scientific detachment. I've known enough scientists in my life to know Harris's characterization of Attilius is accurate. When a scientist is trying to solve a problem, he or she is single-minded and focused to the point where those of us who are not of that bent begin to think they and others like them are scarcely human. As the former wife of a scientist, I say Harris has done a darned good job.

It is the scientific aspects of this book that interest me, as well as some help in understanding volcanoes more than I have in the past.

Formulas for book-writing are interesting for discussion, but I have realized that it doesn't matter to me if a book is written according to a formula or not. Some writers give details about what their characters look like and how they behave and why. Others give only clues, or drop hints through the use of dialogue or internal monologue. As a writer I do the latter. Somehow readers of what I write know the color of my characters' hair and eyes and why they act as they do without my directly telling them. This, I think, is what Harris does.

What overwhelms me in a way is the fact that I never so much before understood or appreciated how advanced the Romans were in science and engineering. Harris really gets that point across. If you look at the History of Plumbing link I posted, you will see Roman fittings that are used today, for example.

The book stimulated me to do some searches on the web. I have not posted the results of all I found. I have a much better idea about what Pompeii, the city, actually was. It was remarkably sophisticated in its layout.

I didn't know this city covered 167 acres and that there were 32 water fountains in Pompeii, some of which ran over into the street, thus the stepping stones so people could cross from one side to the other.

Offhand I'd say the people in the book were secondary to the volcano and the aqueduct, and how the action of the first caused a reaction in the second.

I find it a little hard to understand why Pliny steered his ship directly toward the "eye of the storm."

Mal

My son, Christopher, drives a two hour commute from his home in Pennsylvania to his job in New Jersey. At 6:30 yesterday morning, only a little over a mile from his home, a tree 18 or 20 inches in diameter at the base, fell on his car. It was not storming; the tree just fell, obsolescent.

The car has 6 to 10,000 dollars' worth of damage. Chris suffered only some cuts on his hand, though dizziness kept him in the hospital all yesterday afternoon. He called me this morning on his way to work, told me he's fine, and said, "Nature declared war on Christopher, and Christopher won."

Mal

I was all set to answer Ginny's #14 (trivia, right?) when I read your #251, Mal. So VERY glad your son was NOT injured badly. When personal events strike, it's hard to get back to evaluating fiction, isn't it?

But the answer, Ginny, re: pg 5:

"People thought (those hills) were as dry as deserts, but the engineer knew different."

The correct word is "differently" ... but it seems less important today.

Ginny, to answer your post #247

An old favorite is "The Hunt for Red October" by Tom Clancy, and also some of his other, older ones. (I declined to read some of the recent ones.)

A more recent example, written by Dan Brown of "DaVinci Code" fame, and one that does not have anything to do with religion, is "Deception Point", published 2001, and now available in paperback. The main protagonist is an information analyst, Rachel Sexton, along with other scientists. It's fun, full of political shenanigans, and loaded with techy stuff!

I would like to go back in time to where my family got its start. For me it would be Greece about the 17th century and France about the same period of time. I'd like to be a fly on the wall and see how each family started and how they continued on their paths until the 20th century when my parents first met. I've often wondered if we are always destined to end up where we are or do we all make choices along the way over a long period time to come to where we are today.And if some of those choices had been different would I even be here?

I think the strongest element in Pompeii is the event facor because story is centered around the eruption. We might say that "milieu" plays a part because the world in which the characters act out their lives is stange to us, but I don't think it really plays a big part in our story because the world is not strange to the characters. There is some "idea" to this story in that we have to solve the mystery of the blockage of the aqueduct which leds us to an even bigger mystery. Although the eruption changes the lives of the characters, I can't see that the persons really go out of their way to change their lives themselves. In fact they seem to accept what is happening to them. We can see some changes in Corelia when she tries to go against her father but this action is not really at the center of her life until she comes in contact with Attilius. Attilius at first sends her back to father knowing perhaps that he can not change her life even if he wanted to. It is not until he realizes the danger of the eruption that he tries to find her and help her. You could call this portion a sub-plot to the story, but it is not central to the telling of the tale.

I think Robert Harris succeeds in telling a good historical tale. I tend to like my historical stories with more charcterization in them. I enjoyed the fast moving plot, but I would have liked to have known the characters better. I think than I could have related to them more so than I did. To me they almost seemed 2-deminsional with very little depth.

I am glad Chris your son won and is ok.

g'day Mal. ever so glad your son is ok. here in australia if something like that happens and people live to tell the story, they usually buy a lottery ticket...

cheers.

Amparo

I'm so glad your son is alright.

I didn't mean to stop this discussion. Chris called me again last night on his way home from work, and in between the laughs we had, he said he was glad he'd been driving a car built like a tank. ( A Lexus. )

Where would I go back in time? Not very far, actually. I'd go back to to 1928, the year I was born.

I'd like to see, with these old eyes and the knowledge that's accumulated in my head, what it really was like during the Great Depression in a time of poverty when there were epidemics of illness and no medicine for them. Nothing for the polio I had except almost a year in bed, and no antibiotics to prevent my mother from dying from appendicitis five years later.

I'd like to go in a classroom and see what kind of teaching and education we really had in the 30's and 40's when there were inkwells in the desk, and we all had to learn the Palmer method of penmanship. I was, and am, a terrible penman, but in the 8th grade was determined to conquer Palmer and win the gold-lettered certificate for excellence in penmanship. I did win it, and immediately lapsed back into the scrawl I have today.

I'd like to go back to 1938 at the Harvard Infantile Paralysis Commission in the Children's Hospital in Boston and witness the muscle transplant I had when I was 10 years old and see how that surgery was done and exactly what the aftercare was those four weeks in that hospital and four more after that in a Wellesley nursing home.

I'd like to listen to Franklin Delano Roosevelt on the radio as I am today instead of the child who couldn't stand those speeches and the way that President talked.

I'd like to ride into Boston with the uncle who raised me and wait in the car while he serviced oil burners, eat fish chowder in Waldorf's Cafeteria for lunch, and then go to the Red Sox game to see Ted Williams hit one out of Fenway Park.

I'd like to take the train into Boston and go on the subway when I got there, and walk up the stairs to the sidewalk and smell the combination of coal smoke from factories and exhaust fumes from cars and trucks to make sure the stench I remember that gave me headaches was not just my imagination.

I'd like to go back to December 7, 1941 and hear the awful announcement on the radio and see if the man who was hanging wallpaper in my aunt's house that day really did drop his brush on the floor and rush out because his son was at Pearl Harbor.

I'd like to see if my memories of not-so-good Good Old Days are really true.

Mal

I've been offline a while with a computer meltdown. The computer crashed and had to be replaced. I've spent days searching for a new system and trying my hand at setting it up - a first for me. Strange not to be able to connect on the internet! Now I'm in the process of learning how to use this computer so for the next couple of days please excuse mistakes or awkwardness in my posting.

Since I can't begin to respond to so many posts, and only had tme to skim them - much as I'd like to get in-depth with the interesting posts - I'll just jot down what I've been thinking about with Pompeii these past few days.

What is Harris talking about? What is/are the issue(s)? An author's preface (in this case, as Ginny tells us, epigraphs) provides the author's explanation of what will be found within the pages of his book. That's why the 'die like a Roman' thought of Pliny the Elder got me thinking of all the other examples in the novel and how the preface/epigraphs was a touchstone to those examples.

I'm quite fond of Pliny the Elder too? I'm looking at what the author is saying but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with him.

Harris' writing - We could see from the start that characters are not well developed. That is a standard with most thrillers, however, most thrillers do have strong plots and intricate codes/mysteries. I don't see a strong plot with Harris. I've mentioned before that I've read two of Harris' other novels which are political thrillers and he's well aware of the formula, no problem there. (GINNY, I like old-fashioned mysteries and they can be classified as formula writing too.)

Marvelle

The first quote in the front of this book says that the United States is strong in practically every way at the beginning of the third millennium.

The second quote, written nearly 2000 years before, says that Italy is strong in practically every way.

The third quote says that the water system in Rome was superior to the water system that provided for New York City in 1985.

If Harris intended to show in this book that the U.S. is inferior to Rome, relatively speaking, and will end in the same way Rome did, only sooner, he failed to live up to the promises he made in his epigraphs.

Mal

GINNY, there's a wonderful line in "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" that relates to your comments about this movie. John Kelso, the writer character portrayed by John Cusack, says to his agent on the phone:
"It's 'Gone with the Wind' on mescaline here." Mal

Hey, Rebecca, if you're around, I want to tell you that I'm enjoying your book, A. D. 62: Pompeii. You're an imaginative, good writer. A cute one, too, who scarcely looks old enough to have graduated from college, never mind being a college professor. Here I am right beside you, in view of Vesuvius, near a bunch of people from Germania who are covered with fleas. Can't wait to see what happens next !

Mal

I dream of having a Pompeiian garden. The garden is integrated into the living house; while the houses were shut off from each other, they opened on the inside and most of the living, dining, relaxing was done outdoors within the encircling walls of a house.

The first link has clickable pictures that can be enlarged; the last 2 links have sublinks:

Lantern Slides of Houses in Pompeii

Introduction to Peristyle Gardens

Homes & Gardens in Pompeii

Marvelle

I'll add here that there are wonderful descriptions of houses, Peristyle and other gardens, plants, trees and flowers, food and wine, clothing, city commercial buildings, statues, tombs and inscriptions, the streets, and many other things in Pompeii in Rebecca East's book, A. D. 62 Pompeii.

Mal

Maybe when you finish that book you'll like it enough to suggest it for a future book discussion in Books Community Center, (BCC) or even in the Fiction/Nonfiction Suggestions board? (Most people seem to post about books in Books Community rather than the official suggestion board). The BCC is where one can go to find out what other posters are reading.

The links I've posted relate to Harris because of water - such an important part of his book Pompeii. The last two links that give a good feeling for how one lived in Pompeiian houses and one of the sublinks - natch! - is on Roman water needs and aqueducts.

Marvelle

Hello Mal and Ginny and others -

Thank you for saying such nice things about my writing! The author photo was taken when I was 42 years old, which was a while ago - but as it is the only photo I've ever had taken that I liked, I used it even though it is not current.

My background is not English Lit or Classics... actually I teach statistics in a Psychology department. Presently I'm behind schedule on the intermediate stat textbook that I'm writing; fiction is so much more enjoyable that I can hardly wait to finish the textbook so that I can return to fiction. As background for the novel I collected many, many books (archaeology, history, art, travel and so forth). Photographs and paintings helped me visualize things better than text - I particularly like the "Then and Now" series of books that display photographs of excavation sites with reconstruction artwork superimposed on a clear overlay.

It would be fun, and more than a little - embarrassing? - to have people discuss my book here. It means a great deal to me to hear from readers who appreciate the descriptions, like the characters, or find the story engaging. All of it seemed very real to me while I was writing it.

Hi Rebecca, glad to see you here again. When you were on digs was it in Pompeii? I've been dying to ask what house or area you worked on.

Book Discussion: SN follows a process - similar to other online groups - (1) first a book is nominated; (2) a discussion leader (DL) volunteers;
(3) people vote; (4) if there's a DL and enough votes then a discussion date is set, allowing lead time for people to find and read the book.

An SN participant nominates a book by posting in "Books Community Center" or else s/he can click on the Books & Literature page link (in the heading, right side) for "Suggest a Book." That gets the 4-step process rolling.

I had another thought on Pompeii but am still at the questioning stage. The carefully separated public/private lives in Pompeii - are there aspects of that in America? Or in one's community? First, I think 'yes' just like New Mexico where I live, then I think 'no' and then, like Fagin, I find myself once again "reviewing the situation." There's a great deal of controlled living within a Pompeii house, control of one's environment and social life. One easily excludes the outside. Well, still "reviewing...."

Marvelle

REBECCA: we have had several authors participate in discussions of their books. They seem to enjoy it, and we certainly do.

Author participation always enhances a book discussion.

I'm thinking (still, forever...) about the Pompeiian house v American house. I think the key word for Pompeii is control and it isn't an inward looking house so much as the face that a Roman family presents to others (Romanitas). Well, still thinking if this applies in any way to America.

More later....

Marvelle

I still am in love with Pompeiian gardens, not so much the rest of the house but here's a reconstruction of a Roman house plan. Note the shops facing the street. If you place your cursor on the image it brings up an 'expand' button and you can scroll through this larger image.

Reconstructed House

The above image is from the following site which has many more reconstructed images with descriptions and information. I found all the sections helpful, particularly sections 2 and 3:

Essay on Roman Houses

A Roman's house (including Pompeii) is a cultural symbol of Romanitas and how they wished to be perceived. The Roman was judged by himself, his family, his household and exemplified in his house. The house is part home, place to entertain (no going out for dinner for the rich!), business office, and lobbying platform (all those political posters). The house exemplifies a Roman's social identity and that identity is rigidly followed to keep face.

I don't think we have that house-as-public-identity in typical middle to lower class America. Maybe, yes, for the upwardly mobile and the very rich where the ostentation is designed to impress visitors and business clients. Skyscrapers were initially designed as space savers but became a competition of who can be the BIGGEST, the TALLEST.... and who can afford the TOP floor with the fabulous VIEW to impress visitors. (Here I keep thinking of Donald Trump and his gold-everything high-rise apartment.)

In Albuquerque, New Mexico we have different types of homes. The average homes are adobe and are small with small windows (lots of sun in New Mexico as soon as you step outdoors), and often a walled courtyard with recycling fountain and indigenous plants. The ground is often dirt, sometimes stone/brick, or rock. The courtyard is a private retreat.

The upwardly mobile and the rich live entirely different lives with homes of expansive glass fronts or grassy lawns (neither good in a sunny desert), material possessions on display -- they 'dress their houses for success and to impress' but.... are they in the majority or minority of American society?

Marvelle

Are you subbing for GINNY, MARVELLE? Is GINNY away?

This is how Rebecca East describes the upper class Pompeii house in her book, A. D. 62 Pompeii.

"Each of the four major parts of the house was an open rectangle with a courtyard in the center. The first of these rectangles, at the rear of the house, was the slave quarters; a kitchen, toilet cubicle, storerooms, and smell sleepng cubicles surrounded by a plain open courtyard with a pool in the center."

"The second and largest rectangular courtyard was located adjacent to the slave quarters. The elegant peristyle garden was open to the sky. A colonnade and covered walkway and the family's private rooms surrounded it. . . . A summer triclinium ( dining room ) and several reception rooms overlooked the peristyle garden. . . . early summer roses were in bloom, simple wild roses . . . .Green shrubs and small plants. . . Mint, rosemary, sage, basil and lavender, ivy, boxwood and oleander. A series of fountains and pools. . ."

"The third rectangle was the atrium at the front of the house. This atrium had a tiled rectangular pool called an impluvium, with a fountain in the center. Above this pool an opening in the roof allowed sunlight to stream into the courtyard. The roof sloped downward and inward on all sides around the pool, and rainwater fell into the pool in the center of the atrium . . ."

"The formal reception areas near the front of the house were all gorgeously decorated with frescoes and patterned mosaic floors. Several cubicles surrounded the atrium, some used for storage, some as offices, and some as sleeping quarters for guests; there was also a formal indoor triclinium, that is, a dining room with three couches. At the rear of the atrium there was a tablinum, the office and reception room."

"A fourth hollow rectangle, off to the side of the atrium, was a disused portion of the house with undecorated rooms used primarily for storage."

Hello dear Pompeii discussion, how I have missed you. Our weekend turned out to be a series of crises but am back now and raring to go, let me go get a cuppa and I'll be right back! You know what I've been thinking?

"Armageddon" themes are very much in the vogue now? For instance the "Left Behind" series of books and the Mad Max movies, all have a similar theme: when the END comes, what will YOU do?

It plays on the fears of those of us living in a nuclear undertain age.

It's an interesting premise. I think that is one of the fascinations with Pompeii, which already happened, the end of THEIR world and some survived: we can picture ourselves there, what would WE have done? We like to think WE would survive because WE are smart.

Let's face it, if a pyroclastic blast rolls over you, you don't stand a chance? If you were in water, I would think 1,500 degrees would probably boil you? OR?

You'd have to duck under it at just the right time.

If you were not a particularly religious person, you might be inclined to view the disaster at Pompeii as a truimph of the inevitability of nature over mortal man. (Did you happen to see ANY character in this book who WAS religious?).

I was kind of struck by that in the character of our protagonist, Attilius, his disdain as we've said for religion, but when you combine his own feelings with some of the conclusions the author draws, you begin to see something else, every book has a message, and I think perhaps the entire book sort of espouses a hopeless kind of fatalism.

What was the over all thing you took away from it, vis a vis man and his relationship to the natural world?

Back in a mo with comments on your wonderful posts!

The middle class, small, residential, central North Carolina neighborhood where my daughter's house is (and where I live in an apartment addition to her house) was built by a single builder in the late 70's. These are generally 3 bedroom houses, with attached garages, that are set well off the road among 100 foot tall trees, which are part of this wooded, rolling hill area.

Each of these houses has a great deal of glass, which brings what's outside into the house. There are tall windows, skylights, sliding glass doors, which lead to decks.

This house has 7 entrances, 2 in this 500 square foot apartment alone. The house is long and one story.

The houses are painted in shades of beige and brown, so they blend in with the trees.

Landscaping is simple on these 3/4 and 1 acre lots, which have only woods behind the houses. There may be a small, grassy lawn in the front of the houses and a small lawn and vegetable or flower garden in the rear. The street has a rustic feel. There is no ostentation whatsoever in this quiet, country neighborhood.

Mal

Though none was as cataclysmic as what Vesuvius did to Pompeii, in the just over three quarters of a century I've lived, there have been numerous examples in my life of what Nature can do to shake the complacency of human beings.

I grew up in a small city in northern Massachusetts. When I had polio during the epidemic in 1935, which struck 47,665 persons in the United States, many, many children and adults in my hometown were hit by this illness, which either left them dead or paralyzed. There was a room-sized "iron lung" at the Children's Hospital in Boston, which was in almost continuous use from June 1 to January 1.

A flood in 1936 caused the Merrimack River to overflow its banks. Water reached the second story of buildings lining the main street of my hometown.

There was a terrible hurricane in 1938. "In Massachusetts there was significant damage. A total of 8900 homes, cottages and buildings were destroyed, and over 15000 were damaged by the hurricane. The marine community was devastated. Over 2,600 boats were destroyed, and over 3,300 damaged. Entire fleets were lost in marines and yacht clubs along Narragansett Bay. The hurricane was responsible for 564 deaths and at least 1700 injuries in southern New England. Damage to the fishing fleets in southern New England was catastrophic. A total of 2,605 vessels were destroyed, with 3,369 damaged." During that storm, I was in the Children's Hospital in Boston in a body cast which extended down the length of my left leg and up over my foot to my upper thigh. I was totally helpless. A tree crashed through the roof of the ward I was in, and hospital personnel spent hours moving children in wheelchairs or their beds to other sections of the hospital.

I've lived through several other hurricanes, but none in Florida where I lived 10 years. These included Hurricane Fran in 1996, which devastated this inland part of North Carolina, destroying homes and automobiles and causing deaths and injuries. It took down twelve 100 foot trees in the front yard of this house, plus more on the sides of the house and in back of it. We were lucky.

In 1956 my husband, 4 year old son, baby son and I spent 8 hours sitting in our stopped car just north of Erie, Pennsylvania during a sudden blinding blizzard. We were rescued by kind people living in a small house by the side of the road, who took in 100 people that night. The National Guard evacuated women and children in trucks the following day, while the men stayed and dug out their cars -- after they found them under the snow.

I was living alone in Massachusetts during the 1978 blizzard, which blew snow right through closed windows of my second floor apartment. Governor Dukakis closed all the roads in the state to all except emergency vehicles for a week. I don't know how many deaths and injuries were caused by that blizzard, many by roofs which caved in. My car was buried under a 15 foot drift.

Having learned early what Nature can do, I have a healthy respect for it. Old Yankees took such things in their stride. "Why get upset when there's not a dang thing you can do about it?" This isn't fatalism; it's acceptance of what Nature can do.

Mal

It's interesting to compare the way (wealthy) Romans used the space in their houses to the use of space in other cultures. Andrew Wallace-Hadril pointed out that the ancient Greeks and some other eastern cultures had separate living areas for women and men. British Victorians had separate rooms for children and adults. The Romans did not divide space up in these ways; but their houses did have areas that were more versus less formal, and more versus less public. The service areas were not decorated and painted as gorgeously as the areas where guests were entertained, of course.

Wealthy people (in all the cultures I can think of) have found some forms of conspicuous consumption to show off their wealth: building large houses, wearing expensive clothing and jewelry, and so forth.

REBECCA, thanks for the background on ancient homes. Perhaps this never changes? The stats for America show that 1% of the people own 98% of the wealth and the economic gap is widening; not to the average person's benefit. I think Harris must see the few wealthy, conspicuous consumers, as representative of America yet the reverse is true IMO.

GINNY, Ampliatus' son Celsinus was religious, a priest at the Temple of Isis. His father thought of the priesthood as a rung on the social ladder but Celsinus took it seriously (this particular religion wasn't patriarchal). When Vesuvius exploded Celsinus broke free from his father and was running towards the Temple of Isis when the surge from Vesuvius lifted him off his feet. So religion didn't protect him after all.

I also still see Attilius disdaining the old pagan religions, perhaps for the new 'modern' religion of Christianity. The first chapter sets the scene for this with the splashing of oars in the bay of Naples (reminding us of boats), water, the rock, the cross, ("...a rock, marked neatly [by Attilius] in its center by a thick white cross" (p6, "he placed his faith on stones and water" (p8) ascending the mountain etc -- all actions of Attilius which reflect back on the symbols of that preacher to the converted or the to-be-converted, Peter the Apostle. There are even three doubters/denials. The end of the novel jolted me into thinking Dante's Inferno and how he emerged from the fire spiritually reborn. Yet Harris' message in the entire novel adds an ironic tone there, a doubt that Attilius will always be Primus.

Marvelle

What I got from Pomepeii was that in order for us to survive we must be in harmony with the natural world that surrounds us. Simply put it means that we have to be aware of what is happening not only in nature, but also with other people and make every effort to live together peacefully. I think, however, being human nature what it is that Mother Nature will probably get the better of us. We'll adventually run out of water and that will be the end of homo sapiens.

"During the first three centuries of Christianity, the cross was rare in Christian iconography, although descriptions of it are found in Christian writings from the early 2nd century onwards. The Chi-Rho monogram, which was adopted by the emperor Constantine in the fourth century as his banner called the labarum, was an Early Christian symbol of wider use. The Cross first became prominent in Christian imagery during the 3rd century. An early third century reference (there are few others) is in Clement of Alexandria's unfinished Stromateis or 'Miscellanies' (book VI): he speaks of the Cross as tou Kyriakou semeiou typon, i.e. "the symbol of the Lord." His contemporary Tertullian could designate the body of Christian believers as crucis religiosi, i.e. 'devotees of the Cross' (Apol., chapter xvi)."

Source:

Christian cross -- Wikipedia
CHI RHO MONOGRAM

Mal, what matters in symbols is how they are recognized now in the time period when a symbol is used, in current usage. Harris would choose symbols that are widely recognized by modern readers; it would be futile as a writer for him to do otherwise. Today Christianity, old and new, is seen through symbology that built up during the centuries.

Marvelle

Anyone in New England who has found this discussion of Roman culture intriguing might be interested in this re-enactment event:

http://www.romanmarketday.com/

It's a chance to see people decked out as gladiators, soldiers, shopkeepers, and so forth.

Gee, REBECCA, I'd love to go to that Roman re-enactment. If I were able to, I'd hop on a plane to Bangor, visit my sister in Franklin, and get us down to Wells. Are you in New England? I notice you mention Fresh Pond in your book.

Mal

MARVELLE, isn't the Chi Rho symbol still used today in the Catholic Church? I think it is.

Mal

. . . Catholic Church, on vestments and on altar linens especially. Here is an informative site about the symbol: http://www.stlmcfm.org/symbol.htm

Thank you for the meaning of the symbol as it had Never been explained to as I recall even being raised a Catholic of a type.

Thanks Mountain Rose for the link. Much appreciated.

Hi Ginger, I've just returned to SN after my last post. Was at work today and couldn't get back to the computer - I can usually post on coffee breaks and lunch but otherwise must make sure I give 8 hours of solid work a day.

Whatcha been doing, Ginger? Haven't seen you post in a while and missed your always cheery voice. Are you Catholic also as I am?

Got to go, I'm exhausted...it's been a long and hot, hot day and when I got home I put together a computer chair which drained my already diminished energy. (But now I have a comfortable chair in front of my computer. Yahhh!) Does it mean anything that there are screws left over? .... No, not loose screws in my head Ginger, just extras from the chair. Kinda scary.

Hope you both keep posting here in Pompeii.

Marvelle

Thanks for telling me that you missed me as it made my day. Been having work done on my property so I have been busy leting them know what needs to be done. I was raised a Catholic but moved on so I am now comfortabe with all churches but don't go to any special church as I have studied the bible for many years. I was never taught the bible in the Catholic church as they just taught there rules.

When I put my chair together there were things left over also so guess they just put a few extras in, in case we loose some. I like my chair. It is good to see your posts also. I have Not had time for reading of late but hope to a bit later.

Ginger

I do so appreciate all of you and your fine posts here, we have a lot going on in the Books at present. We have some of our staff out on vacation and we have a new influx of SeniorNet AOL to the site including their own very cohesive book clubs so we've been very busy, it's quite exciting. In addition we have 162 people now coming in to 6 Latin Practice Classrooms and a lot of activity here behind the scenes, in addition I have had some family crises which I have had to be involved with, since Friday, and I hope these things explain my absence. Sometimes, even with the best of intentions, you find there are only so many hours in the day, and I also want you all to know how grateful I am for your wonderful spirit here and your keeping on regardless, thank you VERY much. I am always heartened when I look in here, and NOW finally, on to your wonderful posts!

Ok this morning, as Joan K said, we're really getting the most out of this that we can and we're looking at the various themes we see being played out in the book. The author has PUT those themes there deliberately, some of them like the eels, he tried to develop and repeated more than once. Good point, Marvelle, on Ampliatus's son and the references there to the futility of religion.

Scrawler mentions harmony with nature and again we do know of the anthropomorphic beliefs of some primitive peoples, and even the ancients started out, if you recall your mythology, with nature: Earth (Ge) and other natural gods, which then evolved into the pantheon that the Greeks and Romans had. They became very interesting gods and goddesses with human failings, no better delineated than in The Iliad, where Homer has them viewing capriciously man as if they were watching (and coaching) a hockey game, and squabbling amongst themselves.

And you have the native American belief that if you cut a tree you need to plant two in its place, there are all sorts of beliefs about nature itself, what do you call that type of religion where the spirit is IN the trees?

So we have religion and harmony as themes, we have the futility of man as theme, what are some of the other themes you see? Overall?

If you were a book reviewer writing about the THEMES in this book, what are they in addition to what we've mentioned? You have the plot, that's the icing on the cake, Vesuvius, Pompeii and the Aqua Augusta, the engineer and the girl and the Roman culture, but all those things flung together don't make the theme, if they do, then the book is flawed.

Would you say this is a flawed book at all?

more…

That's an excellent point on Harris's greatest strength in the book, Malryn, I am thinking he wrote the conclusion excellently and I really could not put it down, he IS a good writer.

I think I understand why Pliny steered his ship toward the eye of the storm, he was like our current tornado hunters who do the same thing, maybe?

I am glad to hear your son is OK!

WELL DONE MIPPPY!! On the TRIVIA question, you need a prize!!

Oh ok, tech stuff, the DaVinci Code (The Codex is supposed to be the new DaVinci code, I'm loving it) I have Deception Point, it's super, you are NOT alone!! Thank you!

Scrawler, thank you for when you'd go back in time. I believe if I could I'd want to be able to be with Henry VIII, to see what he was really like. I'd like to keep my head and visit with him closely especially at the end of his life. Many people do not realize the damage that the destruction of the monasteries brought out, and many people do not realize Henry was a very religious man who attended mass every day of his life. These things, to me, constitute an enigma and I'd like to know what really happened, if I could keep my head. Likewise I would like to be with St. Thomas a Becket at the very end of his own life. The audio tapes at Canterbury Cathedral have changed, there must be some new learning about how he met his end, the previous eye witness accounts have the soldiers breaking thru into the church, the monks running to warn Thomas, and his insistence on processing to the altar to celebrate mass. The new accounts vary somewhat, I would like to know what really happened.

And if I could change history I would like to be with Caesar before he left for the senate, think of what would have happened.

Good point Scrawler on how the author likewise introduced the mystery and how the persons were not trying to change their own lives (well maybe as you say Corelia and that sub plot. Do you think his subplots got in the way of the rest?), and their acceptance of their fates, I think that is an important point.

I'm going to agree with you on the 2 dimensional elements of the characterizations.

Malryn, I like your wanting to go back and see if your memories are true, that's quite fascinating, interesting topic it would make, too, for speculation.

Marvelle, I'm so glad you are all set up with your new computer!

And you are dead right on the old fashioned mysteries being of a formula, and we could probably outline it here without even reference to a specific text!

hahaha it sure was Gone with the Wind on mescaline, Malryn, he was right about that, it's a wonderful book.

I'm very much enjoying all of your comments on Roman Houses, I must admit I've been thinking a courtyard here would also be nice, when you consider how they structured their houses (very similar to the Chinese) it makes a LOT of sense.

Rebecca and Malryn, I don't see why we couldn't discuss Pompeii AD 62 in the new year? We're pretty socked up till January but I'll float it by our Books Discussion Leaders and we, I think, would enjoy it, thank you, Rebecca, for telling us your area of specialization, we have several psychologists on SeniorNet, (and we need them) haahahha

Thank you for outlining the procedure we follow, Marvelle, As Joan says, we have had quite a few authors visiting with us, the last one being Karen Joy Fowler whose book The Jane Austen Book Club is still on the NY Times bestseller lists, and they seemed to enjoy it, I recall Wally Lamb talking about our "glorious literary discussions" to others, who then wrote us back.

Oh wonderful point and question, up in the heading IT goes: The carefully separated public/private lives in Pompeii - are there aspects of that in America? Or in one's community? GOOD point!

Oh good point Marvelle on New Mexico architecture, I found in Miami (are any of you from Miami?) that the same type of thing occurs, you have the plain outside appearance and then the opening gardens, pools and lanais, the same kind of retreat idea.

Thank you for the welcome back Malryn and the description of a garden from Rebecca's book, good writing, much appreciated!

Good points on catastrophes, Malryn and on how wealthy people choose to show their wealth, Rebecca, have any of you ever looked at the pages of the Wall Street Journal's Weekend Journal on Friday? You talk about Conspicuous Wealth Revealed, there are castle after castle, private island after private island for sale at astronomical prices, how the rich ARE different!

Malryn thank you for the Chi Rho and Rebecca!! What a HOOT on the reenactment, really, STRANGE! Hahahaha Thank you Mountain Rose for that symbol explanation and Ginger for coming by, we have never assembled anything here that there weren't screws loose, I hope that does not indicate my general brain! Hahahaha

I'm caught UP, what a lovely substantive discussion you're having. Is there any theme left we have not identified? Let's look at Rebecca's suggestion today of the difference in a public and private persona? One of the themes of Christina Schwarz's book, which we read, with her as our guest, All is Vanity, is the difference in internet or email "personalities" and real life, let's consider the effect of this new theme on each character and on life in general, great point!!

Eighty-six year old GLADYS BARRY is a WREX writer whom I've known for quite a long time online. We finally met face to face at the Richmond Bash. Before much time went by Gladys said to me, "Mal, I always thought you were an old bat, and you aren't at all!"

I had to laugh. I run a tight WREX ship sometimes, and I suppose that's what Gladys was going on. When we were together in Virginia, she soon found out that this "old bat" smiles and laughs a lot, and her bark can be much stronger than her bite.

I guess what bothered me about Harris's Pompeii was the subplot of the attraction between Attilius and Corelia. It didn't run true somehow. Harris is much more capable when it comes to creating suspense that thrills the reader than he is writing about ordinary things like a man and woman who are attracted to each other. To me it seems as if he really wasn't interested enough in this subplot to write it as well as he did the descriptions of the problems with the aqueduct and the buildup to, and eruption of, Vesuvius. I think Dan Brown had the same kind of problem when he wrote The Da Vinci Code.

It's easy for this to happen to a writer. When it happens to me I leave what bores me, and is tedious to write, out.

Mal

I don't think prayer is powerless, but I do think we pray not to petion, but rather to reaffirm our intentions or our vows. This is a Metta Prayer that I say frequently:

Metta Prayer

May all beings be happy, content, and fulfilled

May all beings be healed and whole

May all have whatever they want and need

May all be protected from harm, and free from fear

May all beings enjoy inner peace and ease

May all be awakened, liberated, and free

May there be peace in this world, and throughout the entire universe.

Although I was raised a Catholic, after the deaths of my son and husband I turned to Oriental religions. I have found inner peace from reading and learning Buddhism. I've barely scratched the surface, but I try and start my day with the above Mettra Prayer and it seems to help. I think sometimes people think that their religion is going to solve all their problems for them, but I believe that people have to help themselves rather than depend on any religion or philosophy to give them a quick fix to their problems.

Yes, Mal, I live in New England (New Hampshire) and I probably will go to the Roman Market Day (I managed to sell a few copies of my novel at the last event).

I would be delighted if there is a discussion of my book on senior net, if that works out, whenever there is a space in the calendar. I've enjoyed this discussion so much I will try to participate in discussions of other books, as time permits. (I'm sorry I missed the discussion of The Jane Austen Book Club!)

I belong to a face to face book discussion group, but more often than not, at least half the people in the group haven't read the book. It's great to find a group of people who are really interested in - not just fiction, but all sorts of questions that arise from reading it.

I took a literature course in college; at one class meeting, a guy (a football player I think) asked the teacher: "Why do people read novels, anyway?" I thought that was a great question, an important question - but the teacher hand waved it and went on to something else. Too bad. It seems to me that getting ideas and feelings about why we read fiction is one of the most basic things that should be communicated in a literature course, particularly when the students are people who may never take another literature course.

I'm just lurking here, but I had to respond to your football player's question. It is an excellent question, and it delights me whenever one of my students asks it.

I think it was D.H. Lawrence (with his critic's hat on) who said that the novel was "the Great Book of Life." A good description. You can learn a lot about how other people think, who other people are, where they live, the times they live in, what causes them pain and joy, how they make love, and a whole lot of other things just by reading good novels. You can learn far more than you would be able to individually experience.

Last year, my classes read Cold Mountain and generally liked it. One of my students commented that he was surprised that people during the civil war had lives. . .what he meant was that soldiers weren't "just" soldiers, that they came from towns and families, that they had girls back home, just like now. Another student asked if there were really "outliers," people who escaped from the army and more or less lived off the land and the kindness of strangers.

I've had students tell me (conspiratorially at the end of the semester) that they read ALL the novels and were very proud of themselves since they got through high school not reading the assigned books but rather Cliff Notes and all the online notes.

What's most interesting to me is that students, even first year college students can learn to love to read. I wish they would start earlier though.

Maryal

REBECCA, I think that's a great question. Maybe we can consider it for this particular book?

Marvelle

A theme is an abstract idea of the author who uses literary techniques such as symbols, metaphors, imagery which accumulate to form theme(s). It isn't the plot or synopsis of the story. There've already been themes stated and I'll add more (never forgetting the epigraphs at the preface and those that are implied throughout the body of the novel. What I consider to be a major theme is

"Vanity of vanities ... . All is vanity [emptiness]." Ecclesiastes 1:2

The quoted passage continues: "Vanities, vanities .... All is vanity.... What does man gain from all his labour and his toil here under the sun? Generations come and generations go, while the earth endures forever."

More from Ecclesiastes which supports and expands on this basic theme:

"What has happened will happen again, and what has been done will be done again, and there is nothing new under the sun." (3:1)

"....I turned and reviewed all my handiwork, all my labour and toil,and I saw that everything was vanity, and chasing the wind, of no profit under the sun." (2:11)

"For everything its season, and for every activity under heaven its time." (3)

"... Whatever God does lasts for ever; to add to it or subtract from it is impossible... Whatever it has been already, and whatever is to come has been already,and God summons each even back in its turn." (4:14)

************

One can choose to substitute Nature or Fate for God in the above and in any of the symbols used throughout the novel.

Marvelle

1. Impermanence of life

2. Moral bankruptcy exemplified by corruption and the endless need for power, money, and material possessions.

3. Nature is out of balance; Man is out of balance (Nature & Man symbolized in part by the symbols of water and fire).

Water can symbolize the qualities of life-giving, change, transformation, purifcation, life and youth, passage.Too much water however can be harmful to life - Bay of Naples - as it contains a power which can destroy life. Deep water is a symbol for the unconscious and for reflection.

Fire can symbolize light, enlightenment, knowledge, wisdom, progress -- but out of control it can symbolize destruction. It also symbolized God's consuming fire/God's judgment.

When fire and water are combined they form a potent symbol of balance and divine (Nature/Fate/God/gods) union. However, if nature is out of balance with too much/too little water or fire that is a sign of danger and impending doom if not heeded and counterbalanced. We see in Pompeii that nature is out of balance - the water is drying up and the fires are building. This relates also to man's temperament being out of balance (often emotions are symbolized as hot/fire and cool/water).

Marvelle

It's interesting to see the thoughts provoked by this book, which in my estimation is more entertaining than important for most of us.

If there were those among us who were more of a scientific bent than a literary one, I imagine we could go on at length about hydraulics, vulcanology, mathematics, especially of odds, and geology, as well as chemistry in relation to drinking water, because of what's in this book.

Since I have only interest in science and no real knowledge, I feel as if I'm squeezing to get the most out of this story about Pompeii as I possibly can, which I'll no doubt discard when I read the book again later.

What about inevitability and perversity as themes?

If you live on a geologic fault, it is inevitable that one day there's going to be an earthquake.

If you live near a volcano, it is inevitable that one day it will erupt.

If you live on Cape Cod or the Outer Banks of North Carolina or parts of Florida, it is inevitable that you will be struck by a hurricane.
If you live in northern Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Maine it is inevitable that blizzards will hit your area.

Today I am reminded of the story of the Three Little Pigs. One built a house of straw. One built a house of sticks. One built a house with bricks. The only one that survived real adversity was the one made of bricks. There's a moral in this somewhere.

The Romans knew enough not to build cities like Pompeii and Herculaneum in the shadow of Vesuvius. They built them anyway, showing the perversity of humankind.

No amount of prayer or supplication to gods is going to stop Vesuvius from blowing when the time comes, or a blizzard or hurricane from coming. We don't care. We build our cities of straw or sticks or bricks anywhere we want to.

We take our chances.

So did the Romans, who understood odds as much and more than the ordinary guy on the street in the U.S.A. understands them today.

Mal

Welcome Deems, what an interesting conversation between you and Rebecca, lovely to see!

Funny, Malryn how Gladys thought you were an old bat and upon meeting you found out differently. After the first Books Gathering in 1998, Helen Schiffman remarked to me the one thing that surprised her the most was how quiet I was, I guess I seem somewhat ebullient here, well we're a meeting of the minds here, which one IS us?

The romance of Attilius and Corelia IS weak, isn't it? Didn't get anything there but angst on her part, characters not developed, at all.

Scrawler, thank you for the Metta Prayer, Buddhism is a very interesting religion, I personally think Gandhi was one of the most religious persons I have ever read about, I enjoyed our discussion of his autobiography, there are a million religions in India.

Rebecca, we consider you one of us now, and we definitely don't want to lose you! And we do hope you will participate often here. If you do go to the Roman event, please come back in the Books Community Center and tell us about it and hopefully somebody will take your photo along with one of the "Romans." It was quite eerie at Normandy this year for the celebrations of D Day to be passed on the road by a 1940's jeep, the reenactment people were out in force and it was like a step back in time, really REALLY eerie, these re-enactors, like the Revolutionary and Civil War Re-enactors, take this stuff VERY seriously. It was disconcerting to see people dressed up in American GI uniforms speaking Russian and German. I would like to hear your report from this event!

Thank you for that lovely quote about the difference in our Book Groups and a face to face group, we appreciate that so much I may put it in the CC.

I agree, Marvelle, let's look at Rebecca's question or the question of the student, "Why do people read novels, anyway?" Let's tackle that today!

A beautiful answer, Deems. I think people read novels to find themselves and to see how others handle the same experience, not to feel alone, to be comforted that others have felt the same, and to vicariously experience things they wouldn't have.

Thank you Marvelle, for the definition of theme and for those wonderful suggestions. I think we will be making a Reader's Guide of this discussion/ book and I will, at that time, put those and those you suggest, Malryn, in the questions, the heading is too long and we're too near the end to add them, but I'll post a link to the Reader's Guide so you can see them in their proper place, very helpful!

Those EELS are syhmbols too, I just know it! Wonderful point on Vanity of Vanities.

Malryn, inevitability and perversity, good points. Vesuvius had been extinct for 800 years, I live on an extinct fault line, are we to think these will ALWAYS erupt or break? Is it a gamble that it won't happen in our lifetime? Of course you can see from Plilny's observations, sometimes they were very astute, and sometimes they were definitely not, but better than examining the entrails of a bird.

I wonder if the conclusions you draw from natural phenomena are based on….your……what? Experience, education, religious beliefs. Spartacus HID in the body of the volcano, I wonder if they even know what it WAS?

Do we have any evidence that , since it had erupted last 800 years before, they had a clue what it was?

What IS perversity? Is that a value judgment?

Great thoughts, as we prepare to leave this book, what have we left out talking about here? Is there something, some element, you think we have not covered or addressed?

Any particular quote which interested you or which you thought was particularly good?

Denarius for your thoughts!

GINNY, I feel sure that the story of Vesuvius's eruption 800 years before had been handed down through the centuries, and that the Romans has at least some idea of its potential power.

What a good question! Is perversity a value judgment? I'm going to have to think about that one!

Most of what I know about nature, I know from experience. Going on field trips, so to speak.

Why do I read novels? I read them for most of the same reasons I write them. To put myself in another place, another time, with other people I don't know.

I don't search for myself in novels the way I once did, even as short a time as fifteen years ago.

I know very well that I have been reading novels differently in the years I've been writing them. It's very similar to what happened to me when I learned how to analyze music. I put myself and as many of my pre-judgments in the back seat as I could, and listened to what the composer had to say, I tried to figure out how he or she did it, then applied what I learned from that experience to what I composed myself. That's how I read.

Mal

GINNY, nature provides destruction and creation, hazards and benefits and that's probably one of the messages of living. We must accept the entire range of life, fragile and beautiful as it is; that is the deal we make for living.

I think all humans are surrounded with the potential for natural dangers whether it's earthquakes, volcanoes, tornados, hurricanes, storms of all sorts, extreme heat or extreme cold.... and so on. The force of nature is all around us.

More than 80 percent of the earth's surface is volcanic in origin and volcanoes destroy and create. Volcanic activity formed the sea floors and the mountains. The gaseous emissions from volcanoes formed the Earth's atmosphere; made clouds that turned to rain that filled oceans of water. Volcanic soil is rich and beneficial to plant growth and offers a lush landscape.

People who live with the potential for natural danger - meaning all of us - must be aware of the hazards as well as the benefits, live in harmony with them, adjust to the rhythm and protect as much as possible. With volcanoes this means reading danger signs and being prepared to flee from the periodic violent eruptions.

Acknowledgement of danger, unfortunately, is often not a factor with humans. In general we prefer to ignore the dangers and forget history. There are 2+ million people now living in the shadow of Vesuvius and some don't remember the history; few have evacuation plans on hand; some don't know the volcano can still erupt. History records that the volcanic activity of Vesuvius occurred every 700 - 1000 years. A long enough time for people to forget or think 'it won't happen to me.'

History of Vesuvius

Vesuvius Since 79 CE

Volcanology from Myth to Science

Some Legends of Volcanoes

From the last link: "Native people often explained natural features and phenomena using legends. Legends can also serve as connection between a cultural or spsiritual view of nature and a scientific view." I think then that we are all - in some way, greater or lesser - native people. We have created legends/myths to explain the world and ourselves in the world.

Marvelle

I read first and last because I love books. I read for entertainment (passive reading) and this is less careful and less demanding than active reading. If something in the novel sparks a response within me then I'll re-read actively, beyond the surface plot, to understanding what can be found deep within the text and to find out why it touched me. I'll think critically as I read, I read to learn.

Reasons for reading:

1. For entertainment (Being transported to different places and times; meeting different people; experiencing new things; learning different subjects such as aqueducts)

2. To learn about oneself (Everyone, without exception falls into the rather smug but comfortable rut of self-deception where we think we are self-aware yet, depending on our natures we either excuse ourselves and our actions or we forget the good that is in us. Through continually questioning oneself through the active art of reading, you learn about yourself, might see ways to change and what should remain the same.)

3. To learn about others (This is a take-off on learning about oneself. If one learns about others, sees from their perspectives however difficult that it is to accept as valid initially, then one questions oneself and learns about oneself. It keeps a reader - me - from automatically assuming godlike, unassailable rightness. Learning about others teaches you to be more receptive to other viewpoints and people different from yourself.)

4. Learn how to live (This is a forever, ongoing process; age doesn't diminish this need as Gandhi recognized, and just as Gandhi kept learning, growing, evolving, I try to follow his active example.)

5. To see the commonality of the human condition (Finding a reason to live. The human condition is part of not feeling alone, is seeing that others feel the same joys and terrors of being human and we go through the biologically determined events common to humans, moving from birth to death. Examples: (a) Achilles' learning curve about the human condition; (b) Shakespeare on the 7 Ages of man-

All the world's a stage,

And all the men and wowmen merely players,

They have their exits and entrances,

And one man in his time plays many parts,

His acts being seven ages.

All of the above are a continuing process for me. I don't want to stop learning about myself, others, and the world. That's the joy of reading a novel.

Marvelle

I started to read it because of the details about volcanoes and the aqueduct. That kept this novel interesting despite the weak plot and two-dimensional characters (except for Pliny) and made the book a 'keeper' initially; yet.... having to think about symbols and themes makes me realize that there is more to this novel than just background color. I would recommend it to other readers -- despite the distasteful, unbacked judgments on America -- for its universality of themes as well as its background.

There are many novels I love, novels far above Pompeii in quality and depth yet it is entertaining, a page-turner, and you still come away having learned something about Nature, Humans, another civilization, and -- if you're receptive -- about yourself.

Marvelle

Thanks for the fine Vesuvius links, MARVELLE.

Well, I'll tell ya about this searching-for-oneself-in-what-we-read deal, some time ago I found out there are much more interesting things in this world than ME, ME, ME. When I got myself out of the way, I began having a much greater respect for, and began to learn more about, a world that isn't restricted to the confines, limits and limitations of ME.

As far as learning how to live is concerned, each phase of life requires a new and different approach. At the four wheeled chair, almost completely housebound level I'm on at this time of my life, I'd be a sad mess if I didn't look outside myself through this computer and all the windows and books in this room where I live.

There aren't any hard and fast recipes for life and living that I know of. Each one of us hopefully does what is best for us.

For me this is, as I said, not looking for myself and comparing the old, and getting older, solitary existence, physical pain, lack of money, etc., etc., etc., which are my lot, with anyone else's, real or fictitious.

No, my sustenance comes from places and ideas outside myself, places I've never been and quite probably never will see, and from people I've never known and never will meet.

That's why Rebecca East's book about Pompeii in A.D. 62 is so interesting and so much fun. It puts me right on and in the scene. I can't even pretend that Robert Harris's book about the same place does the same thing.

Mal

Mal your very positive attitude is most commendable.

Cheers!

Amparo

A novel is like a piece of marble. Just like a sculptor takes and molds a piece of marble into a life-like statue for all to see, so to an author takes an idea or theme and molds it into a story about life for all to see. But in a novel life is often portrayed as: Life to the power of 3 or Life times 3. In fiction we tend to exagerate a certain idea, point, etc to bring it home to the readers. To put it simply reading a novel is like reading about Life!

I agree Anne. I feel a novel has much to offer if one is willing to explore all aspects of it.

Amparo, the word 'positivism' stopped me in my tracks. (My response to the word 'positivism' does not relate to Mal's post which you referenced and which I haven't read yet. Thunder storms are limiting my time online so I have to be quick here.)

Positivism is an ambiguous word. It can mean assured, emphatic, confident. I've had more than my share of experiences in life, more than most, and the other aspects of positivism makes it unworkable around others since positivism also means the closed to change and closed to considering other perspectives, unconditional, unyielding. So positivism means absolute yet the meaning is not absolute and opens itself to question.

I was going to respond to one of GINNY's questions but the storm is threatening again and I'd better unplug the computer. Late....

Marvelle

My dictionary reads; “positive” as: confident/constructive/optimistic… I could go on. I found Mal’s post 303 full of just that. And I had used the word "positive" not “positivism”. hope by now you, Marvelle, have read the relevant posts... and checked dictionary for "positive" and "positivism".

cheers.

Amparo.

- for your so positive comment on my novel!

Love your color, Amparo!!

You're right Amparo, sorry for not reading the word as you wrote it. You did say positive rather than positivism which has a very different meaning. Positivism is not positive! Just got in from work and haven't had time to read past posts except for yours and Ginny's latest.

Thinking about the eel symbolism she suggested. I think of the eel as being like a snake (then there's fish) and will start the symbolism from there and then note any differences or similarities I see with the eel and how it might have been used in the novel.

Snake: fertility; reincarnation/rebirth; life-force; self-sufficient cycle of nature between destruction and creation, life and death; symbol of time and continuity of life; eternity; Christian symbol of evil, temptation, and the devil. The snake is different from humans in habits, looks, behavior - almost alien - reminiscent of the beginning of the evolutionary process.

More later.....

Marvelle

I think that the eels symbolize "Unalterable Nature"

Fish (eels) are the food of the sea; in their natural element eels are efficient hunters and are also hunted (predator/prey). The pond eels in Pompeii are undomesticated pets with jewelry dragging at their fins yet they are still retain their true natures which can be dangerous.

Eels, like snakes, represent the self-sufficient cycle of nature (destruction/creation, death/rebirth) from the beginning of the evolutionary process through eternity.

Perhaps Harris' message with the eels is that Nature will not be conquered, will not be altered, and to think otherwise is dangerous.

Marvelle

G’day my friends. It is 2.30 am. The last of my dinner guests have left, I am too tired and need to relax before I retire. So I thought I would post the latest news I have about Pompeii, or I should say Vesuvius. to be exact. I enclose the announcement our SBS TV station has for a documentary to be shown in few hours time this evening, unfortunately I don’t think I am going to be able to watch it.

It looks as Pompeii was not the only city Vesuvius had destroyed: 2000 years BEFORE Pompeii another village was buried by Vesuvius fury. If it is so, this century will be very crucial for neighbours of Mount Vesuvius.

LOST WORLDS - THE FIRST POMPEII Almost 2000 years before it buried the Roman town of Pompeii in 79 AD, Mt Vesuvius destroyed a Bronze Age village only recently unearthed. In 1995 and again in 2001, archaeologists made some startling discoveries in the area of San Paolo Belsito, a town near Naples. By chance they unearthed two prehistoric skeletons. Their hands were protecting their faces and they lay as if they were running to escape something. First thoughts were that they were victims of the eruption that destroyed nearby Pompeii, but further investigation proved the skeletons dated back to the Bronze Age over 2000 years earlier. When archaeologists then uncovered a Bronze Age village buried under layers of pumice stone and ash north of Vesuvius, it was realised that these were victims of a much earlier, deadly eruption. (From the UK, in English) CC SMS Code: 5201

Cheers.

Amparo.

You know, it's amazing how, when you read something, that it sticks with you and you don't realize it? Yesterday I saw the movie the Day After Tomorrow, and at one point there was a woman who had frozen to death? And she was covered in this ash like snow ice crystals and it looked JUST like some of the casts you see at Pompeii, my friend and I both remarked when we saw it: just like Pompeii, visually that is. Another disaster story, this one of course fictional, but of great magnitude and what would YOU do, sort of scenario, how would YOU escape? It was, (despite what the critics said) super. I loved it, but I like things like that (this).

I wonder about the plethora of books/movies/ themes on the end times, cataclysmic events, nature (in the case of the movie, Global Warming) and, Scrawler, you'd have appreciated this one, harmony bewteen man and nature.

There were some super points, too, concerning books but I won't spoil it in case you go to see it.

Everything old is new again?

You all, here at the end, are making some stunning points. I have loved reading your posts, Marvelle, I want to use that one of yours AS the review for this book we'll put into a Reader's Guide.

I would like to know, actually, concerning an 800 year old volcano, Malryn, what records there would have been of its eruption. Pompeii was not that old, was it? And here is Amparo with a 2,000 year old eruption of Vesuvius, and the Bronze Age people; wouldn't you all kill to know what was known about Vesuvius in 68AD? If it erupted 800 years ago, who would have written about it in Italy? Maybe word of mouth? I've been thinking about this one ever since you mentioned it, it's amazing all of the different things this book has brought up!

I'll try the Nappo and see if it will cast any light on this, back in a moment!

GINNY, check my links in post 300 which were pertinent to previous eruptions and legends of eruptions. In link #2 History of Vesuvius, the first few sentences read: "Greek and Roman scholars (Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Viturvius, Vergil) already knew the volcanic nature of the mountain before this [79 CE] eruption. It destroyed many towns...."

Also, I remember Attilius' stunned comment on the 79 CE destruction by Vesuvius "Not Nola." (Nola being the ancestral family home of the recently deceased Augustus.)

The Vesuvius eruptions of 5960 BCE and 3580 BCE rate among the largest known in Europe. The later eruption of 1500 BCE is the one for San Paolo Belsito, the great find of Amparo.

Move Over, Pompeii

Avellino/Nola

The above link "Avellino/Nola" is quite useful and has photographs of achaeology sites on the right side of each page. Click on the sublinks to the left side - "Other localities" or "Altre localites" - and you'll find a link with information on San Paolo Belsito.

Bronze Age Nola

GINNY, what does Nappo say?

Marvelle

Thank you Marvelle for very interesting links (glad I could read the Italian originals) and information on Vesuvius pre Pompeii eruptions. Alas lol, my “find” consisted on having, by chance, read the tv programme of our best tv station. Needless to say; me being ignorant of vesuvius previous “temperamental displays” of such magnitude indeed dumbfound me.

Cheers.

Amparo.

AHA! Thank you Marvelle, Nappo says nothing on it, but the Encyclopedia Britannica says not! What fun. I'm finding the MOST interesting things to add to our conversation here, a little scholarly controversy here, perhaps?

It's like going to a movie, you exit and all of the themes, etc., provides fodder for long discussions afterwards, and, in this case, for me, learning. I am not sure what more you can ask!!

First off, do any of you have one of the old Britannicas? In the "olden days," ahahaha when we were growing up, there was not as much known as they have to put in encyclopedias now so scholars had time for lengthy monographs on lots of arcane things. The old Britannicas are treasure chests of old scholarship, when scholars had time to elaborate. Of course since, say, the 50s and 60s, as we've pointed out, there is much new knowledge in the field of Classics and Archaeology, so some of the things we knew about the ancients which we thought were set in stone, weren't.

We have an old set of the Encyclopedia Britannica, the 1968 edition and I wouldn't take a million dollars for the scholarship in it and the lengthy, scholarly and erudite articles, it's like dusting off some old scholar and letting him talk again. I've found out some wonderful stuff.

On Vesuvius: The EB says they didn't know?!?

It appears they actually had no clue? We know with all our scientific knowledge today, about those earlier eruptions 5960, 3580, and 1500, but according to the Britannica, they did not?!? Maybe this is one of those scholarly argument things? The EB says

Vesuvius is now considered an active volcano and its height varies considerably with each major eruption. In 1900, 4,275 feet, in 1906, 3,668. Until the mid '60's, 4,203.

At the summit is a 1,000 foot deep crater, 2,000 feet across that originated during the 1944 eruption. A circuit of Vesuvius can be made on the Circumvesuviana Railway.

At the beginning of the Christian era, and for many previous centuries, no eruption had been known. Strabo, however, detected the probably volcanic origin of the mountain and drew attention to its fire-eaten rocks. The sides of the mountain were richly cultivated, as they are still, the vineyards being of extraordinary fertility. Pompeiian wine jars were frequently marked with the name Vesuvinum (the wine is now known as Lacrima Christi…the tears of Christ).

On the barren summit lay a wide flat depression walled by rugged rock festooned with wild vines. It was in this lofty rock-girt hollow that the gladiator Spartacus was besieged by the praetor Publius Clodius (Pulcher) in 73 BC; he escaped by twisting ropes of vine branches and descended through ungaruded fissures in the crater rim. Some paintings excavated in Pompeii and Herculaneum represent Vesuvius before the eruption with only one peak. (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1968).

It appears the people, even tho they built Pompeii ON a lava flow, as a whole, did not know. Remember the times we're talking about, not too many written records from the Bronze Age.

In addition, in the history of Pompeii itself, "archaeological evidence does not go back beyond he 6th century, when, to judge from the remains of an archaic Doric temple in the rectangular forum, Pompeii came under the rule of the Greeks of Cumae." (EB). I am unsure of my "Ages." When was the Bronze Age? (Amparo I have photographs of those skeletons, they are grisly!) It's always been incredible to me we can actually READ the words of the Romans, who, themselves, lived in the ???? Age? I wonder what happened in South Carolina in the Bronze Age, who KNOWS what you and I are sitting on!!

On the eels?

Did you know it was once thought in the Middle Ages that the eel was spontaneously generated from mud? Out of the mud and ashes, you might say, a symbolic, perhaps, wink to hindsight, in addition to the great things, Marvelle, you have mentioned. The eels keep appearing throughout the text, I kept putting question marks. I am not sure if this is another set of symbols that got away from Harris, that, as he says frankly, got lost in the excitement of his conclusions but have you all seen an aerial map of Pompeii?

It looks like a fish.

more…

Marvelle, also consider this on that list: (Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, Viturvius, Vergil).

I'm not familiar with Virgil's (70-19 BC) works on volcanoes, he's mostly known as the epic poet who revealed the greatness of the Roman empire, I wonder tho if writing that long after the founding of the city of Pompeii and before the eruption, how much would have been listened to, or even heard. In our modern world of instant news and sound bytes, we forget how news and information was disseminated back then, WE know from the fragments that are left what was said, but did they? What did he say about it?

This is fascinating.

Strabo, as noted, did detect "the probable volcanic origin of the mountain and drew attention to its fire-eaten rocks." Since he lived (64BC-AD 19) a long time after the founding of Pompeii, I am not sure whether his findings would have been of concern, I wonder if there is some way we can see what was thought of his findings or of they even knew of them?

I'm not familiar with the writings about volcanoes of Diodorus but since he wrote in 40BC again after the founding of the city, and more than 130 years before the eruption, and his main topic (he wrote in Greek) was mythology, I am again not sure how many citizens knew of his own thoughts (or what they actually were) . I bet the internet would bring both his and Strabo's thoughts here if WE could see them. Too bad the Pompeiians had no internet!

I have Vitruvius (somewhere around 50 BC again 125 years out) and did not realize he wrote on this subject, either, but I love his book. Again living after the foundation of the city, and it's hard for us to know how much they knew or would have listened to. Wouldn't it have made a fascinating theme to have one of these guys trying to tell the Pompeiians like Cassandra? A fascinating question, thank you so much for those points, I'm off to read Vitriuvius!

Despite scholarly conclusions, it's hard for me to think there were not myths, stories and legends about Vesuvius. Northwestern Native American Indians told ancient stories about earthquakes like Thunderbird and the Whale.

There were legends and myths about volcanoes. Volcanoes in Historical and Popular Culture. Myths and Legends.

There are ancient Celtic stories about eels.

"Eel (Eas-Ganu): The eel is mentioned in several Celtic legends, one of which is the story of the two swineherds who battled through a variety of shape-shifting forms. In their final form as eels, the swineherds were swallowed by cows who later gave birth to magickal bulls. Cu Chulainn's spear Gae-Bolga got its name from the eel. The Morrigan took on the form of an eel when she had a magickal battle with the hero. The eel symbolizes adaptability, wisdom, inspiration, and defense."

Eels were common in Pompeii. Here's an interesting article about eels in Roman gardens. Eels in Roman Gardens.

Amparo, English translations immediately follow on the heels of the Italian in the link you mention.

GINNY, check out post 300 and see the Legends/Myths links. Some interesting ones from all over the world - Native American as well as Greek/Romans. Love the fish shape!

Marvelle

One of the things I love most about Books and Lit is that all of us have something to offer, no matter what kind of knowledge or background and expertise in a field we might have.

There is no competition here and no one-upmanship. What we have here is a willingness to share our opinions and the open-mindedness to appreciate everyone's interpretations of the books we read together, along with appreciation for each other. We are a family of readers who care about each other and what we think and bring to discussions.

Mal

"Vedius Pollo, a friend of the emperor Augustus, found that lamprey eels offered him an opportunity to show his cruelty. He used to throw slaves, who had been sentenced to death, into ponds of lamprey eels. He did this, not because wild animals on land were not capable of killing a slave, but because no other type of animal offered him the enjoyment of seeing a man being torn to pieces, completely, in one moment."

Adapted from Pliny the Elder, Natural History 9.39.77 in As the Romans Did: A Sourcebook in Roman Social History, Jo-Ann Shelton, Oxford University Press, 1998.

Why Marilyn Freeman, what a beautifuli quote about our Books! Thank you for that, we'll use that again somewhere, I had come in because I saw your post about scholarship to laugh and say I wouldn't get too excited about any coming from me, because I screwed up Virgil's dates in my first iteration of that post and actually had him at 9 years old when Pompeii erupted hahaahah HAHAHAHAHA, oh dear. Well it's a joy just to be ourselves, warts and all, I love the Books, myself, and am glad the rest of you do, too.

We're a good group here, no joke and hopefully we'll take on a million more readers!

Just in this discussion alone we have picked up Amparo and Mippy and Rebecca, and I wouldn't take anything for any of them!

And this may be an issue that we can never resolve, as to what they knew or did not know (at least until they dig up...consider what may still be under...those 23 acres set aside forever).

Thank you for that link to those myths, Marvelle, (isn't that fish shape something ELSE?? I nearly croaked).

Amparo, I needed you on my last trip with your Italian, mine is so good when I use it they answer me in English, that should tell you something? hahahaah

more...(thank you Malryn for that information from Pliny on the eels! I find them fascinating, and apprarently until recently very little was known of their life cycle. After reading this I am not sure I want to encounter one)!

From post 300 the link Legends describes the legends of Giants and volcanoes. Giants, aka Cyclops are the sons of Gaia/Earth, they rose from the Earth. The Giants were volcanoes. I think this is how Ancient Greeks and Romans explained volcanoes. They knew the volcanoes existed, knew the potential dangers and eruptions, but didn't know about plate tectonics and science as we know it today. Ancient Greeks and Romans explained earthquakes and volcanic eruptions as the unrest and battles of Giants. From Legends:

"The volcanoes of the Mediterranean, that were active during historic times, are confined to only a few areas: the Hellenic Arc, Southern Italy, the Aeolian Islands, Sicily and the Strait of Sicily. All these area were within reach of the early navigators. Neolithic settlements found in each of these places testify that obsidians [volcanic glass] were exploited as tools and arms. Commerce between the islands and the continent seems to have flourished, possibly as early as the eighth millennium BC. Volcanic activity must have been observed occasionally by early inhabitants and, as a consequence, new myths must have been born to account for such portentous events."

"A trace of these events is found in several earlier myths such as that of the Giants and of Cyclops. The Giants were creatures of immense size, that rebelled against Zeus and the Olympian gods but were defeated by Zeus with the help of Hercules. They were buried under volcanic Islands like Nysiros and Sicily. A later tradition, reported by Strabo, locates the place of the battle in Campi Flegrei in Italy. The Cyclops were one-eyed giants. According to Hesiod they were the three sons of Uranus and Gaea, and Homer said that the Cyclopes were shepherds who inhabited caves and rocky caverns [Homer placed the cave of Polyphemus on Etna's slopes]. The most famous, Polyphemus, was blinded by Ulysses. The place where the Cyclops lived, is traditionally located in Sicily, and the Cyclops are said to represent the activity of Etna. In other traditions, the Cyclops were the servants of Hephaestus(the god of fire) hidden in the caverns of Etna where they forged the tunderbolts of Zeus. Actually, the Cyclops were probably based on Thracian blacksmiths who used to paint a circle on their forehead as a symbol of the Sun (Graves). The interpretation of volcanic activity as due to Cyclops suggested that the giant blaksmiths used enormous bellows to start the fire. This interpretation is possibly as old as the beginning of Bronze age (c.3000-2000 BC) when metallurgy was still regarded as a mystery and blacksmiths as its priests."

Virgil alludes to Greek legends, and transforms them into Roman legends in the Aeneid. The legend says that the giant Enceladus, who rebelled against the gods, is buried beneath Etna, the volcano on Sicily, by the goddess Athena. Earthquakes are his tossing, rumblings his voice and eruptions his burning, flaming breath. Mimas, his brother, is buried under Vesuvius by Hepahistos (Roman name Vulcan), the god of fire and metal-working.

Virgil on Mt. Etna in the Georgics, c29 BCE:

Yea, how often have we seen

Etna, her furnace-walls asunder riven,

In billowy floods boil o'er the Cyclops' fields,

And roll down globes of fire and molten rocks!

Marvelle

GINNY, I don't think it can be absolutely, undeniably proved that early civilizations knew about the previous eruptions of volcanoes. I don't think the average person is stupid however and it would be common sense to have heard stories of the Earth's unrest but it seems like most early peoples explained them as acts of gods. Some people still do so. A few Ancients would look to science but had much to learn about how volcanoes formed and what caused eruptions; the scientific 'why' was still unknown.

Vitruvius (c46-30 BCE) in The Architectura wrote that: "once fires burnt below Vesuvius and sometimes it spouted flames on the surrounding fields."."

Diodorus Siculus (80-20 BCE) writes that the Campanian plain was called "Phlegrean (fiery) from the mountain which of old spouted forth a huge fire as Aetna did in Sicily; at this time, however, the mountain is called Vesuvius and shows many signs of the fire which once raged in those ancient times."

Strabo (64 BCE - 25 CE) wrote: "Above these places lies Mt. Vesuvius, which, save for its summit, has dwellings all round, on farm-lands that are absolutely beautiful. As for the summit, a considerable part of it is flat, but all of it is unfruitful, and looks ash-coloured, and it shows pore-like cavities in masses of rocks that are soot-coloured on the surface, these masses of rock looking as though they had been eaten out by fire; and hence one might infer that in earlier times this district was on fire and had craters of fire, and then, because the fuel gave out, was quenched."

Now these writings make me wonder if people are basically the same; that we don't change. If a volcano erupts every 700-1000 years, Modern folks say "I'll be dead of old age long before another eruption. It won't happen to me." The Ancients probably said "It happened before but that was a long time ago. It won't happen to me." Perhaps we don't learn from history because we want to think we're immortal? We don't want to admit that such a catastrophe could happen to us; it happened way way back in the past - and that would be the Ancients speaking pre 79 CE as well as the Moderns of today.

Marvelle

GINNY, mythology and legends aren't necessarily false. They are stories that tell how a people are formed, about their culture. The Bible is myth. The Koran is myth. I think myths are not merely entertainment but can be the telling of history, like The Iliad and the Ancients would use myths to explain (explicate) actual events.

Marvelle

Thank you Marvelle, isn't that fascinating, it's amazing what's on the internet. I am still (hahaha) not convinced the average man on the street thought of Vesuvius as a danger, now Mount Aetna, I can see. I guess we'll never know, but you DO make a compelling case!!!

And really, let's be honest, if something hasn't shown any signs of doing something for 1,000 years, why would you expect it to? I mean I sit on a fault line that's supposedly also "extinct." It was all I could DO to get earthquake insurance, everybody thought I was crazy including the Insurers. But long ago in a land far far away, we learned in geology lab it's there. It's been written up. It's in the geologic books and scientists have written about it. This is 2004. It has not done anything for a long long time. Nobody here in this community even knows it's here. But we're sitting right on it? Would I move in case it might shift or crack in the next 20,000 years? Not likely.

I will say I do wonder that the Pompeiians remained after the earthquake?

I know you all read about all the evidence of the rebuiliding and the art showing the rebuilding and the half finished projects, well again, why would they live there? Why do people live in LA?

You know the song,

Day after day
More people come to LA
something something don't they know
The whole world's shaking away.

Where will you go
When there's no San Francisco?

and so on.

I was in LA after their last earthquake, the biggest one? And their interstate just hung there like a nightmare, going nowhere, haunting thing.

It's like Social Security for a modern parallel?

You know that notice they send you of what you're due?

on my husband's this time it said flatly that they expect it to run out in 2050.

I said HEY do you see THIS?

He said I won't care in 2050 hashahaha

That maybe how they thought?

I would have left Pompeii if an earthquake came thru, myself.

. . . All we have to do is look at the West Coast of the U.S.A., and even with all the news and scientific data readily available, we live near active volcanoes. I live within an hour's drive of Mount Lassen, which is still active, have been there many times to check out the steam vents and boiling mud pots and look in awe at the way it's whole top blew off to leave volcanic material for hundreds of miles around. We use it as gravel by the side of our highways, and much of it is a pretty purple pumice. No one in our modern age thought much about the volcanoes at all until Mount Saint Helen blew its top, and all of them have big population areas in their vicinity.

I suspect that the people of Pompeii were not much different than we are, and we have lots more information and records than they had, and we still stick around. I can tell you that I love where I live and wouldn't think of living anywhere else, volcano or not. I'll take my chances. And that's the way the people I know feel who live near Mount Hood (very fetile soil for cherry and apple orchards) and near Mount Rainier in Seattle. That whole chain of mountains is nowhere near quiescent.

All of life is risk of one sort or another. LOL

marvelle, I don't thnk myths and legends are false, at all? Au contraire!

Mountain Rose, you are so right, and what about the East Coast? The Atlantic beaches? I want a place at the beach (I think big) hahahaa (not that THAT'S going to happen, if it does you are all invited for a week at the non existent beach condo and we'll talk BOOKS). My sons are aghast, what about the beach erosion, what about hurricanes, what about the insurance, it's MADNESS. Etc? My husband just rolls his eyes. We'll have Books at the Beach before I die if we have to sleep ON the beach haahahahha IN the hurricane WITH the beachfront erosion and the sting rays and jellyfish...and.....our Evacuation Plans firmly in our pockets!

. . . all over Southern California, and I've been through some big ones. No big deal at all. Feels like being on a ship in a violent storm. But we have faith in our building codes, and from every earthquake we learned new things. The Mexico City earthquake was particularly instructive in the way the waves within the earth made high-rise buildings move. Since then the building codes have accommodated that knowledge.

Where I live now is all earthquake and volcano country. It doesn't seem to bother anyone I know and we just "ride it out". A couple of years ago we had a fairly large one here centered in the vicinity of Reno, Nevada. I was in the grocery store and everything started moving and falling. So there we all were. What are we gonna do when it hits? It's too late, so we laugh about it. Personally I like to sort of go with the roll and actually "feel" it moving under my feet because they are all different: There is rolling motion, wave motion, drop motion, thump motion, and sometimes it's a combination that seems to last forever, with aftershocks too. My animals are usually more worried than I am.

Once one has some ideas of tectonic plates and how they move one doesn't worry too much about California falling into the ocean. It will never happen, even though the landscape may get rearranged somewhat.

Books on the Beach? On the Outer Banks of North Carolina, GINNY? I'll be there.

The worst hurricanes and blizzards I've lived through have been in northern New England. Do I care? No! I'd move back there in less than a New York minute if I could manage in the ice and snow.

Mal

. . . but I think there is one along the Pacific Coast overlooking the ocean which is a hotel just for readers. There's a library in it and each room is named for an author. I wish I had the name of it at the tip of my fingers, but I don't.

I would think I died and went to heaven to spend a week or so in a place like that. LOL

Good GRIEF~!!! "There is rolling motion, wave motion, drop motion, thump motion, and sometimes it's a combination that seems to last forever, with aftershocks too. My animals are usually more worried than I am. " I bet good heavens it makes me sea sick to read about it, I BET the animals are worried!

Now THAT? I would be gone!

Think about those who live in Tornado Alley in the mid west? For that matter think about those people who deliberately get into a metal tube (and pay for the privilege) and run down a long cement road and shoot themselves into the sky?

??? NOOO?

Ginny, I can't recall the name of the small hotel. . . .

. . . but I think there is one along the Pacific Coast overlooking the ocean which is a hotel just for readers. There's a library in it and each room is named for an author. I wish I had the name of it at the tip of my fingers, but I don't.

I would think I died and went to heaven to spend a week or so in a place like that. LOL

I never heard of such a thing! We must find out the name. I know of one built over a railroad yard for train enthusiasts but not THIS! This is US! (I know a neat hotel near the Louvre in Paris which has rooms named for artists? Matisse is the best one?

A Hotel for Readers, get outta here!

Well, I guess I'd rather ride out an earthquake than go sky diving or bunjee jumping. For some reason (illogical, I know) I think the earthquake would give me better odds. LOL.

But you are right, when we lived in eastern Canada I remember some of those hurricaines and also tornadoes in the Midwest.

Where I am right now, surrounded by National Forest on all sides, there is always fire danger also. I went by the forest service sign the other day and at this time the fire danger is "EXTREME" in bright red letters. So every summer we go through this, we know it, and we still continue to live here. I figure if a fire storm comes over the ridge I have my evacuation plans ready every summer---the cat boxes for my two cats and the leash for my dog, and I'd let it all burn to the ground without blinking an eye or shedding a tear. As long as we ourselves survive everything can be replaced.

Isn't life one grand adventure???? And I love rip-roaring thunderstorms too!!!

The name came to me while I was fixing some lunch, so I looked it up. I read about it many, many years ago in the Auto Club Magazine, and I guess it's been around for quite a while.

Have fun checking it out. I do supposed Bookies at Senior Net ought to know about this place, and the Oregon Coast is breathtakingly beautiful too: http://www.sylviabeachhotel.com/

Oh yes, I remember that hotel. It's gorgeous. (But I can't remember the name either.)

Mountain Rose, I was raised in California so I understand the 'no big deal' feeling of earthquakes. It is something we get used to and, somewhere I'd said earlier, that there are natural hazards all over the planet. Hurricanes, tornadoes, typhoons, earthquakes, extreme heat/cold ... it's part of living. Love your thought "All of life is risk of one sort of another."

It seems like we've reached an unlooked-for consensus that we'd choose to live in a place to live despite the hazards because we love it and/or are familiar with it; and perhaps a known/familiar hazard is easier to live with than the unknown.

Marvelle

P.S. Yes, yes! The Sylvia Beach Hotel. Thank you, Mountain Rose. Okay, shall we all start saving our pennies and plan a vacation together?

. . . wonderful conversations that would go on in a place like that at dinner time? Or walking on the beach? What an experience that would be with a whole bunch of book lovers all together in a beautiful place filled with books and overstuffed chairs as the fog rolls in!!!

Oh, Mountain Rose, I bet they have lots of small(?) meetings there; writers' conventions? It's about a half mile to Newport's historic downtown and near the south end of Newport Beach. I wonder if there are any natural hazards in Newport Beach, OR? Well.... let's not notice the hazards.

Marvelle

Tidbit: "Construction of an underground aqueduct (1594-1600) led to the discovery of Pompeii's walls; excavations at the site have continued since 1748." (New College Encyclopedia 1978) I found it interesting that Harris used the aqueduct to discover the eruption of Vesuvius.

Myths: "These traditions are found in all known cultures, and probably were designed originally to serve two main purposes. First, in a world unconscious of (or uninterested in) organic processes, myths accounted for natural phenomena by representing them as the result of the willful actions and adventures of external powers. Second, myths provided the necessary authority and validity for various practices and instituions. [Myths may deal with] "the rhythms of nature and the alternation of the seasons; the inherent antitheses of natural order, both physical and moral...Within each of these categories, the many stories told in different cultures often show remarkable similaries." (The New College Encyclopedia 1979)

Anne, I thought it interesting of Harris too. He selected an approach to the eruption that no fictional writer had thought to do before; yet it seems such a 'natural' approach now that he's written about it. That quote about myths explains them so well. That's a quote I'm copying for future use. Thanks Anne.

I still think that Nature is both benign and dangerous and humans can't change Nature. We live with the hazards in order to reap the benefits.

Back in posts 263 and 270 I had links to houses and gardens; if you like gardens and want to visualize a Roman house's working parts, check at the link and the various sublinks.

The links in 270 (including a reconstructed house that you can scroll through, just as if you were walking through a Roman house) helped me figure out how one would live in such a house. When I read I like to visualize, especially the Roman houses and gardens.

I read The Gardens of Pompeii.... by W. Jashemski - referenced in the heading - and the book is to-die-for if you love gardens and garden designs. One of the finest garden books I've ever seen. The Bryn Mawr old photos of peristyles (post 263?) were stunning but I've never desired a fish pond with or without eels.

The statuary; plantings for shade, food, aroma, beauty; painted garden walls regularly repainted due to fading and to change the 'scenery' for variety and evolving tastes; the pools (excepting fish); the dining facilities often located next to a cascading fountain; and the sanctuary for a god/goddess..... sounds lovely.

But no eels please.

Marvelle

Can you tell I'm not used to using a touchpad? I make mistakes when tired and learning this new computer system is fun but tiring.

In my most recent post I meant to say check out the links and sublinks in posts 263 and 270.

Marvelle

G’day everyone. Yes Marvelle I saw the English translation also one could click on language options, however it was nice to test myself.

Ginny, I just love Italian language, to me it sounds like music. Once upon a time if I was in north Italy I would be asked if I was from the south… and vice-versa. Now after many years without practice it would take me awhile to plug up courage to speak.

Cheers all.

Amparo.

I was able to watch on TV last night the end of "Vesuvius 2000BC" . Archaeologists still so much work to do… the most frightening thing is they said: 2000BC few hundred bronze-age people might had been killed (only two skeletons so far have been found): Pompeii; few thousand killed. Present era should Vesuvius erupt it would be millions due to the great number of people, not only inhabitants within a short radius of Vesuvius, but also the very many tourist on the area every day. I tend to think that with so many scientists, new technologies and expertise constantly monitoring Vesuvius, surely sufficient time would be given for people to be saved. Oh well, let’s pray it would be so.

Amparo.

Italian's a wonderful language, AMPARO. At least the dialect I learned was. I sang many Italian arias and art songs in my heyday.

Peristylium

Tablinium

Atrium

The Library Hotel in New York City. Click "Concept" at the top of the page
Did you know there's a Ladies Library in Brewster, Massachusetts on the Cape?

Nice links, Mal. Here's one of the sublinks I mentioned when posting links in post 270. It walks you through a Roman house; lots of reconstructed rooms so you can see them 'pre-ruin.'

Space: From Front to Back of the Roman House

Marvelle

Private Lives of Romans -- Houses and Furnishings

Trimalchio's Dinner by Petronius

Image links by Barbara McManus

I was just rereading some of your fine posts from before, that's an excellent use of our discussion boards and the Print page, you can reread something that interested you! Over and over. Lovely points, Scrawler, on the parallels between Harris the the discovery of Vesuvius itself!

The Gardens of Pompeii, by W. Jashemski, sounds like a dream, Marvelle, I really think I need to put that on my list for Christmas: so many of those houses and gardens at Pompeii were just lovely.

Thank you for the links, Marvelle, and Malryn. A feast for the eyes.

I was enjoying Amparo's Lost Worlds: the First Pompeii and all the new links, thank you all very much.

A very good point, Amparo on future projected casualties, I had read that Herculaneum was almost buried afresh in the last eruption, which was only a few years ago, I hope not. What a provocative thought: WOULD it be any different now in this day and age!!!???!!!

There seems to be a good bit of interest in our Books to the Beach idea (SC on the East Coast, Malryn!) one on the East Coast one on the West at the Sylvia and one maybe in the middle of the country (I like the "beach" at Riverwalk in San Antonio) hahahaah

Anyway, what a great idea and thank you all for all of your ideas and your wonderful background information, our time here grows short....er....but wait?

ER...did you feel a slight rumble? Kind of a roll? Uh....

Is there a smell of pitch or smoke? Or rotten eggs?

Yes, I believe somebody IS burning something, isn't that ash?

er....OH yes!! THAT was an explosion, wasn't it? Er...ah...I have VERY much enjoyed this discussion and now I think it's time for us to amscray, I'm heading to the water, I can duck under, the roads seem clogged all of a sudden, where I is everybody going? We'll never get out that way. I need to first get my box with my gold bracelet and the grocery money in it and my bust of Augustus, which way are you going?

Thank you all for your excellent participation in what some people might have thought was a book you could discuss in 3 minutes, I think you did it proud. And we/ or at least I know I learned a lot!

er...definitely a rumble, I'm for the boat, see you in the next discussion!

. . . discussion. Learned more than I will ever need, and I kept some of them, such as the models for Roman houses and gardens. I think it's a much more civilized way to live than the way we live with the front of most houses facing the street and crammed in with neighbors on either side. I love the idea of the house surrounding a garden; it's a style of building they also have in Mexico and gives the family a lot of privacy.

Oh well, since I'm surrounded by forest it doesn't really matter. I don't even need curtains on my windows 'cause I'm on a hill and there's practically no one else around except coyotes and deer. LOL

And I can't wait to get my hands on Rebecca's book. The whole concept of a modern person and time travel to end up back in Roman times sounds like a winner to me.

Great discussion as always, you all. Looking forward to the next one. Hope to see you back here, Rebecca. Looking forward to reading your book.

Yooium Hooium! I'm over here in Roma! I caught the first litter out the minute I caught a whiff of that awful Fire and Brimstone smell.

I'm writing this as I sit in my cubiculum amongst all my homework scrolls for Latin 101. It certainly was nice visiting with all of you. Your hospitality was great, though I may never get the taste of garum out of my mouth. I've been chewing lavender all afternoon.

I enjoyed making new friends like Mippy and Amparo and meeting a real live author, Rebecca East, as well as seeing old friends I've known from discussion holidays before. Thanks to Ginnicus G. Vino, our leader, and all of you.

Ave et Vale,

Almay

Why do you think people live in places where there are natural disasters?

I lived all my life in California and rocked n rolled when we had earthquakes. The first I remember was in 1950s I was hopping down the sidewalk when I saw the detached houses in San Francisco coming toward me and a neighbor shoved me to the ground while bricks were falling all around us. The last one was in 1989 when I was walking across the street and I again got shoved to the ground, but when I looked around nobody was next to me. Than I noticed the ground was shaking. It was like walking in Jell-O. A little miracle happened for me during that quake. I ran into my condo and picked up the phone to call my daughter in Berkley and my husband said that the phone was dead - I dialed any way and I heard my daughter's voice say: "I'm alright mom than the phone went dead!"

Now I've been to Texas during a tornado and was scared out of my wits. I also saw floods in New Mexico and the damage they did. In both these areas people started rebuilding and putting their lives back in order as soon as it was safe to do so. I remember we were in the basement of motel-6 in Texas and there were several couples with kids down there and you could hear the tornado above us. We asked each other we were from and when we told them from California. They all said that they would never live in California because of the earthquakes. As for me and my family, as soon as we were safe, we got in our car and drove not stopping until we saw the sign: "You are now entering California".

So why do we settle in these places that tend to have one natural disaster after the other?

To echo Malryn, Ginnicus has done a marvelous job, and she also got out in time!!!

I'm heading for the ocean, should be safe there, only a 6 minute run from home, taking the dog (also husband), and leaving fast ...

Vale to all!!!

This has been a marvelous discussion! It's great when a book arouses enough curiosity to send people off eager to learn more, and there's a wealth of information on the web about ancient Rome.

It's wonderful to know that people are interested in my novel! It is not available in stores; but it can be special ordered by any bookstore, or obtained on line from www.amazon.com and other on line book sellers. iUniverse also sells it directly (1-877-823-9235).

I'll be eagerly awaiting future discussions! Not sure if I am up to the Waste Land, but it sounds intriguing.

The practice of fleeing the city for the cool countryside during the hottest part of summer goes back at least as far as Roman times, and the "siesta" does too. At first I was surprised that so many stores in Italy closed up from about 12 to 3 (or thereabouts), but it makes a lot of sense to take some time off during the hottest part of the day. Then, as now, the Romans had folding or sliding doors that could be used to close up a storefront during siesta time.

Reading books about people who can afford to buy and remodel Tuscan farmhouses makes me sooo.... envious. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing to do?

Drop the bust of Augustus, GINNY! It's too heavy to carry when running ... remember? Then too, I can hand you one of my boxes of books.(BG)

Later you may be able to see my footprints in the mud as I head for the Pacific Ocean.

It was a fun discussion. I learned a lot and had a great time. Hope we get together soon over a virtual cuppa, chatting about another book.

Marvelle

Yes, wonderful discussion. I'm jealous of you guys going to the beach! I sit by my pool and listen to CDs of ocean waves. Very, very relaxing. See you'al in another discussion. Scrawler

aggg…er….huh?

What??

Mippy says she's glad I made it out alive? What an optimist, and by jingo, I believe she's RIGHT!

Thank you Mountain Rose, I see you've survived and are planning another excursion with Rebecca's book, we'll look at that in the new year, what fun!!

Thank you Joan K, you also have made it out! We are a resourceful bunch and Oh there's Malryn in Rome, no less, that was fast, that litter went faster than the train! Hahaha I tried the train but they hadn't built it yet! Hahaahah

Scrawler thank you for those last words on the San Francisco earthquake, a lovely coda here to our ancient/ modern experience!

"Walking in jello!" we're glad you made it out, too!

So far 100 percent!

Mippy's for the ocean with dog and husband, I think I see all three of them bobbing around on the inner tube??

Rebecca, bless your heart, thank you, I think you all have been marvelous, too. I wonder, in your capacity as a Psychologist if you or your students will be interested in talking with Dr. Jonathan Shay, whose Achilles in Vietnam we're reading in September followed by The Iliad in October, the two are interconnected??

hahaha Marvelle, I can't leave the bust of Augustus behind, he's one of my ancestors and you know how much we Romans, even those transplanted here in Pompeii, need to show ourselves and others our ancestry, (I think he was on my mother's cousin's nephew's uncle's second son's, side).

Yes, I saw your footprints, what's this Pacific Ocean you speak of? Are YOU a time traveler? I am not worried about YOU, then!

Whoops, Scrawler, another Time Traveller, what is this CD you speak of, Stranger, and if you sit by that pool, watch OUT for the eels!

Yes, yes, I definitely feel much better. I think I'll go look for Rebecca and Joan K, they never said what their plans were for escape, but I see they made it out? Maybe they are hiding in the aqueduct tunnel!

This discussion is now Read Only and will be Archived with our almost 400 others shortly, thank you all for taking part in this marvelous, fun, educational, and horrific adventure!

Now in which direction did Rebecca and Joan head off?