Dear Friends, old and new,

even though our discussion of Barbara Kingsolver's latest book, Prodigal Summer, is not scheduled to begin until FEBRUARY 1st, I am eager to extend an early invitation to you right now.

Your posts are welcome now. All thoughts are valuable; none will be overlooked.

Many of you are already familiar with Kingsolver's work- her earlier novels, notably THE POISONWOOD BIBLE, and her book of essays titled HIGH TIDE IN TUSCON. Now we will have the pleasure of exploring her latest work together, here, and I find that prospect exciting.

May I suggest reading the first 100 pages by February 1st.

But please don't wait until then; I will be here every day for pre-discussion chats.

Welcome aboard !

Traude

This will be the first "repeat author" that we've done since I've been discussing books here on SNet. Really looking forward to it - am already comfortably into her rhythms.


Charlie

Oh, cool.

Nice to see your new hat, Traude. Or is it an old hat? I mean, an old, new hat? Or a new, old hat.

Glad to see you're leading this discussion. I do love how Kingsolver writes, so will hurry up and get this one ordered. I will have just moved when this discussion starts, so I'll be here as soon as I get the old box hooked up. I've opted for space travel speed hookup this time, a digital phone link through Southwestern Bell. There were tons of choices. Austin is the third highest "wired" city, after San Francisco and San Jose(silicon valley). There were more servers and hookup routes to choose from than in Houston, a city 7 times larger. Maybe so, but unpacking and paying a Computer Nerd to hook it up (that's the name of the company, but plural, Nerds) will take place at human speed.

So good to see you here, Betty.

It would be great if you could find the time -- right after your move ! -- to join in our discussion. I much admire your special "take" on things and would appreciate it particularly in connection with this book.

I wish you much luck, and I hope you have help during and after the move, and a smooth transition.

Traude

Hi, Betty, and Traude:

Now that I'm feeling so much better, I sort of like the idea of reading this new novel by Kingsolver. I liked "The Poisonwood Bible"and I'm sure this one will be just as entertaining. It's so good to see you here as Discussion Leader, Traude. And Betty, your name is always a welcome sight!

I'm just now ordering the book, so it may be a day or two before I have read enough to comment on, but better late than never!

Lorrie

I feel the same about your name, Lorrie. I've been fuming on your behalf, re: doctor doings, so I'm particularly glad to see you here.

So good to see you here, early as it is.

As I was closing PRODIGAL SUMMER for the night, I marveled again at the reproductions on the inside pages, front and back.

They are simply astonishing, and I find muyself returning time and again to the Io Moth with those expressive "eyes", on the far right.

The representation in our header is wonderful and I take this opportunity to thank its creators.

Traude

Traude

Hi, I just registered for Seniornet and I see there is so much stuff here that it will take many visits to learn all about it. I was originally looking for on line book groups, and that brought up Seniornet. What a find!!! Anyway, I digress. I see that the new book is Prodigal Summer. I purchased this book awhile back but have not started it yet. I thought "The Poisonwood Bible" was a wonderful book, as well as previous books by Barbara Kingsolver. Her style is very lyrical, almost poetic. I have a John Sanford mystery that I must finish quickly, and then I will begin this new book. I am an avid reader from Minnesota. Although, winter can be a real downer time of the year for many of us, reading and quilting usually pulls me through. Here's to good readin' and new friends!!!

Quiltlady!! Hello! Hello! So glad you found us! I have a weakness for quilts, especially ones from the 20s and 30s, so anyone who has "quilt" in her name is already wonderful in my book. The quilt pattern I associate with childhood safety and love at my grandmother's house is the "grandmother's garden" pattern. The several my grandmother quilted in that pattern were meticulously done with 8-9 stiches to an inch on one side.

Anyway, I'm so glad you'll be joining us for this discussion. Kingsolver is wonderful to read and such fun to discuss. Check out our past discussion of Poisonwood Bible under archived discussions, some time.

Betty

quiltlady- Welcome onboard. We’ll be starting this discussion on February 1st, and out Discussion Leader (Traude) has suggested that we have the first 100 pages under our belts to get started at that time. We all loved The Poisonwood Bible, too, and we’re really looking forward to this one. Glad you found us. I originally found this site a few years ago via a search (along with a number of others) and decided that this was the BEST one of them all – the most variety and the most activity. I think you’ll find the same.

Charlie

quiltlady A Warm Welcome to You Glad you have found your home away home as many of us have.

Ginger

First of all, welcome Quiltlady, I am glad you joined us.

Our circle of friends is widening, which I find gratifying. Books have always been my passion.

Fans and admirers of Barbara Kingsolver will again savor the beauty of her language and the sensitive protrayals of her characters.

And may I clarify : I made that suggestion concerning the first one hundred pages in order that we get a "feel" for the story and then see where the discussion takes us.

That should not be taken as an arbitrary limitation; everyone is perfectly free to read ahead, that goes without saying.

Happy reading,

Traude

Reading the news today about the current situation in the Congo brought back consideratioons of concepts from Poisonwood.

One wonders how some of the friends Kingsolver had in the Congo have fared over the years of turmoil in that area, and how the current situation relates to the views she expressed in the book.

Does anyone know of any follow-up she may have done of the political situation?

No, I don't Jim. Perhaps others may. She is always "topical" though - as in "in the news". Just the other day there was an article on the new radical environmentalists operating in small "cells" across the country. Immediately brought to mind her new book.
Charlie

Hey, Quilt Lady, welcome! I, too, am a Minnesota resident, and am very fond of John Camp's (Sandford's) novels. I regret to say I can but admire any one who has the patience to make quilts, the best way I find to pass these dreadful winters is a good book. Like the one we're going to be reading here.

I loved Poisonwood Bible, and I also wonder about some of the people Kingsover wrote about there, Jim. Good to see you here, by the way. So far this looks like a great group. Traude, we shall all try to get at least 100 pages under our belts, before we begin, okay?

Again, We're delighted that you are posting in here, Quiltt Lady!

Lorrie

Lorrie

The latest news out of the Congo is disturbing. This evening I read in a Swiss press report that Interior Minister Kakudji has denied that president Laurent Kabila was in fact killed. Even so the armed forces have sealed off the capital Kinshasa, closed its international airport and imposed a curfew.

Will anything ever improve in this Heart of Darkness, one wonders ?

Traude

Charlie is right but this is a Three Peat for Kingolver, we read her Poisonwood Bible,and her High Tide in Tuscon!

Quiltlady, welcome here, I love the way you write and hope you will stay with us a long time, you are totally right, our Books & Lit are a find, and we look forward to adding your comments to our list of wonderful discussions.

ginny

Thank you all for the warm welcome to this book club. I will be starting "Prodigal Summer" this weekend, so that I will be "up and running and ready" for any discussion that starts on 2-1-01. But, I have a few questions about how this process works. Traude is the discussion leader, so does discussion actually begin on 2-1-01 with Traude throwing out a few questions to get us going? Is there a particular time of day that is most active for discussion? Do you actually set up a day and time for discussion? Is it all random or is there a "schedule" for discussion? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Loads!

Cathy - The Quiltlady

Ginny’s an ‘ole timer here [shhwoossh…sounds of me ducking] so High Tide in Tuscon! was before my time. I did happen to read an essay from it as I recall, during our Poisonwood discussion.

Cathy- This will be Traude’s first time leading a discussion here at SNet, (though she has a lot of experience with book Discussion Groups) – so I’ll let her answer your questions about this discussion specifically. Let me say a few things, however. The discussion of the book per se, does start on 2/1, but comments are always welcome pertaining to the author and your reading (without getting too specific) before the discussion “officially” starts. This is a Message Board type discussion, where people post their thoughts at any time of day. These posts will appear in numbered order, chronologically. It isn’t “real-time” chat – although if two people are posting around the same time – sometimes it can appear so. What you post may not (and probably won’t) be responded to immediately, but eventually everyone who is taking part will see and read it and (ideally) engage in dialogue with each other. We usually devote a month to each book in the Book Club Online. Each DL has a different style and Traude will be developing that I’m sure as she gets comfortable with the process. Some DL’s post “starter” questions and a suggested reading schedule, some handle the schedule other ways. I’m sure Traude is open to suggestions, so if you have any preferences – this is the place to post them.
Charlie

Hello Cathy, Charlie, everyone,

yes Cathy, the discussion of PRODIGAL SUMMER (I WILL think of an abbreviation eventually ...) will officially begin on February 1st.

As Charlie has said, this will be my first endeavor as a discussion leader, and for precisely that reason I feel more comfortable describing my role humbly as that of a MODERATOR.

In any event, we are going to embark on a literary journey together and, through the sharing of our impressions/interpretations- which may not always coincide, we will grow, I hope, in our understanding, not only of the book but also of each other.

I have already mentioned that books have been my consuming life-long passion.

I have been a member of books groups for decades long before the advent of computers, when we were stay-home mothers and met in the daytime at members' homes, and brought the children along, oh my God so long ago.

The children are grown now, circumstances changed, and there were moves ... some unwelcome disruptions of a way of life falsely presumed to be permanent (when life itself is but transitory !!), but through all those travails there were the gatherings of book lovers, a continuum to be counted on, and hence an infinite solace.

I am glad you found us, Cathy. It took me a long time to find SN org's BOOKS AND LITERATURE, this most precious, unique place where discussions are in-depth and extend over a month's time !

What's more, everyone who cares to post is heard (read), everyone's "take" on a story or book matters and will be given due attention, as well as a response. Not everyone who reads here will aactually write in; some do, eventually. It hardly matters. Suffice it to say that all are welcome, to read, to ponder and to post, if they so choose.

And yes Cathy, we are happy you joined.

Indeed I will post a few questions soon in order to establish a focus, as it were, to get us thinking.

I would like to close this missive with a salutation coined by a cyberfriend of mine, but I really should not, since I have not obtained permission to do so (yet).

So I will just close with Happy Reading,

Traude

Thanks Charlie and Traude for the info on this club. This is my first book club. I feel better on line than I do face to face, although I have shared thoughts on books with friends through the years. We moved often while my children were growing, and my way to get acquainted was usually volunteering: in church groups, in schools, in libraries. Eventually, the volunteering evolved into actual paid labor working in libraries, elementary school(Chicago) and several county wide public library systems(Houston and here in the Twin Cities). My favorite places to hang out are book stores, fabric and quilting stores, and office supply stores. Office supply stores? Yup, I luv 'em! I have no idea where that comes from,I think it may be all the artsy stuff and writing stuff you can find there. I must not forget the garden stores and greenhouses, but that seems so far away when the temperature here today started out at 2 below zero. I am not thinking much about digging in the dirt. But, I am thinking about my love of books and looking forward to corresponding with other book loving folks through this magical, mystical media called the internet.

Cathy

I love office supply stores!! I have a thing for paper of all kinds, though. Stationery, notebooks of every width and function, leather binders for it all.

Just today I was looking on the internet for new address labels and hours later, I was still (sidetracked) looking at stationery and for-sale day-timer planners. It's not that I write that many old fashioned letters, it's just I still love the supplies, implements, process. I don't think I ever fell out of love with September's smell of new notebooks, pencils, paper, erasures, etc. That fresh beginning with fresh school supplies---can't beat it.

Ok. I hesitated. But that makes two. Hi! I'm Charlie and I love Office Supply stores. Long, long aisles of multicolored felt tipped pens and markers and more ballpoint pens than I could ever use. (I especially love the thin ones). Wall calendars, desk calendars, little one-day rip off calendars…xerox paper, laser paper, copy paper, DeskJet paper, glossy paper, colored paper…staplers, staple removers. Gadgets. Desk things. Stackable Trays. Pen holders. Scissors. Binders. Presentation folders. Funny. Pencils I don't like. Don't understand them. Have to sharpen them. Love pens and the many permutations of grips available, though.


Charlie

Paper-Mate (Write Bros.) Medium Pt., the perfect cheap pen. Montblanc Generation ballpoint, fine point, the perfect expensive pen. The ultimate writing experience---Montblanc classic fountain pen (blue ink of course) on Cranes kid finish ivory 100% cotton stationery (or with thin navy border). A good substitution---any cheap NEW spiral bound three-section notebook, preferably 5" x 8". The ultimate search---each year's day-timer planner.

My name is Pat, and I have a very hard time avoiding Office Max, Ofice Depot, or Staples. I have found that the best way is to leave your credit card at home and only carry a small amount of money into the store... But iusually only have a small amount since I come to tne Barnes & Noble store on my way to Staples.

I think the timing of reading Prodigal Summer is especially good. As we watch the inauguration of the next President today, it must be admitted that, no mater our attitude toward environmental concerns - or Bush's views on the matter - certainly there are those who would frame his Presidency around that issue. It would seem that this book has a lot to say about those concerns.


Charlie

Yes Charlie,

it IS a good time to read this book for the reasons you cited; what's more, we will find ourselves transported effortlessly to hazy summer days, of which we can otherwise only dream in our present wintry misery.

Traude

Hi all -- This is just too good to be true, what a hoot! It's a two for one site! I've been a closeted office supply junkie for years and my home away from home is Barnes and Noble. I'm not sure how I found this site, I was purging "my favorites" the other night and there it was. After logging on and reading these posts I knew I'd found a wonderful group of people to learn and grow with. Although I have always wanted to I have not belonged to a book club(to many other time committments until now) so this will be a new experience. I received Prodigal Summer for my birthday in November and read it just before Christmas -- I'll have to review some before the chat actually begins. I am really looking forward to this new adventure!

Bee

Welcome, Bee!!!

Whee!! This is starting out to be such a fabulous group and we are delighted to welcome you and hope your very first book club experience will not be your last here, you are totally right, it IS too good to be true!

How delighted we are to see you here, please stay a long time!

ginny

Hi, Bee! This is really great, isn't it Traude? Looks like we're going to have an interested group here, I think it will be fun! I'm still waiting patiently for my book, hope it gets here soon so I can read at least 100 pages before we begin, as our Discussion Leader has suggested.

Lorrie

I'm here too - and so happy to have two new posters - Cathy and Bee - with us too!

(I'm sorry, but I do not have any great passion for office supply stores. May I stay anyway? Please?? Pretty please?)

I've started the book and will be VERY interested in hearing your views. I, like Traude (Betty?) loved the inside cover of the book. That attention to detail really makes just holding this book a wonderful experience.

This book is such an interesting departure for Kingsolver, in my mind. Can't wait to start the discussion!

Wonderful to have you with us, Bee ! The circle of friends is widening.

I am sorry not to have been able to post sooner; I have been digging out from under a foot of snow and tending to my loyal canine companion who is not taking these snow drifts in the back yard well.

To my vast relief, my son has shoveled one side of the driveway so that I can go out and hope to be able to do that in the morning.

Happy reading !

Traude

Welcome Bee,

I'm new too! Found this site last week. I also have never been part of a book discussion group. So, two of us can learn how this works together. This group seems to be very spirited, and I think we're in for some very fun and interesting discussions.

Here's to happy reading!

Cathy

It was not easy to get going after all that snow. Various duties called.

And I have not been able to check in her to catch up.

And even if there is nothing to report that is momentous, just let's keep reading.

And yes, for those who noticed :

I know how to spell "newbie" , now someone get the message to my arthritic fingers ...

For the love of books,

Traude

Sacre bleu. Sacrificial Lamb.....
Charlie

Thanks all for the warm welcome. Yes, Cathy it is nice not to be the only one new to this adventure. My sympathy Traude for the tribulations of snow removal. We've been spared for awhile (at least in my little corner of the state of NE). I love sitting fireside and watching the white stuff fall, prefer not to be out in it tho' certainly not shoveling!

Bee

I've been reading a biography of Barbara Kingsolver, and in one she is quoted, when someone remarked that some of her books seemed autobiographical: "But my work is not about me. I don't ever write about real people. That would be stealing, first of all. And second of all, art is supposed to be better than that. If you want a slice of life, look out the window. An artist has to look out that window, isolate one or two suggestive things, and embroider them together with poetry and fabrication, to create a revelation. If we can't, as artists, improve on real life, we should put down our pencils and go bake bread."

Go bake bread, indeed! I like that!

Lorrie

Barbara Kingsolver has said, and rather emphatically, as I have heard from a friend, that her work is fiction and in no way autobiographical.

So we will have to take her word for it.

But we do know that she is a biologist and that the subject matter dealt with in PRODIGAL SUMMER is dear to her heart.

Traude

Welcome newcomers! Oh how I love to see new faces joining in on our discussions. I will forewarn you, folks, you will become addicted to this group of articulate, warm readers. I clicked on here a bit over a year ago and haven't had the sense to get off the net since. Not to worry, there's nothing to learn. We care about your thoughts, your dilemmas and your perceptions. Speak right up. Occasionally I have to be told to hark but I'm used to being abused here. Welcome again.

OK! I finished the Prodigal Summer on vacation an I absolutely loved it! What a read, a bit steamy but done in an impassioned ardent way. I never realized there was so bloody much to a simple little insect, as the moth. I love the way that the characters all come together. My daughter told me that she read it was a comparable book to the Red Tent which we all enjoyed so much.

ALF - how interesting, since I see no comparison (so far) between Prodigal Summer and Red Tent. I'll just have to continue reading, I suppose!

Sorry I have fallen behind with my reading schedule. I have been very INVOLVED with reading MATING, which is being discussed elsewhere in B&L, as you know.

Also I was away for a conference all day today.

Now that I have finished MATING, I will devote my immediate, full attention to PRODIGAL SUMMER.

The comparison with (the overall tenor of) THE RED TENT seems to me quite apt; I know we will have an interesting discussion.

Traude

Okay, Cathy, Bee, Sarah, Charlie, Traude, any of you lurkers here, I have to admit that I am embarrassingly late getting started on this book, but I intend to rectify this immediately.

Alf, dear Heart, it is so good to see your name here again! After your comment about Prodigal Summer, I can't wait to open these steamy pages, and it will be interesting to see the comparison to The Red Tent. February 1 is fast approaching!

Lorrie

That's an interesting characterization which I can no longer ignore since it was made 3 times already- so far.

The title, of course, really says it all, and so does the jacket cover with its reference to the "PROFLIGATE countryside".

One of the reviews I read (The Boston Globe, Dec 24, 2000) said

<< ... Life in PRODIGAL SUMMER revolves around sex, eating, and death, and is propelled by the urge to procreate. >>

I love Kingsolver's fiction and nonfiction; I consider the Poisonwood Bible her best.

Now, given that book's relatively "austere" tenor- shall we say, I was not quite prepared for the hot and heavy, indeed "steamy" breath hitting me right from the first pages of the first chapter, which took me aback, literally.

It was also one of the reasons why I have had difficulty thinking of the RIGHT questions to raise for purposes of our upcoming discussion, --- but possibly I have been trying too hard.

And that applies also to searching my memory about long-ago, not-much-loved biology classes. I do not remember moths at all - and never knew that there ARE such beautiful specimens. I do recall shuddering at the sight of butterflies pinned to some base or other. And the thought of those pitiful little reptiles encased in their glasses and forever submerged in murky green liquid still gives me the shivers. When we got to theory a few years later, I felt a little better.

So clearly I have much to catch up on, and our joint discoveries will be shared and therefore enriching.

Traude

Oh, Traude, I know exactly what you mean! I hated biology classes--dissecting those poor little frogs was abhorrent to me, and I always dreaded going into that classroom.

Lorrie

You are so right, Traude, that the book's immediate steamy quality is a shock for someone who has read a lot of Kingsolver. I'm afraid to say this so early, but there is something of the bodice ripper to the early part of this book.

Just started the book and I, too, am not quite ready for such sexual details or maybe intensity. Is it that I haven't had time to be invested in the characters? Or is Kingsolver letting the reader experience the same shock of sex with an almost stranger?

Dear Friends, I have precisely the same questions; that has slowed my reading. In fact, I need to overcome a certain reluctance to go on more than a few pages at a time, which is totally unlike me.

But forge ahead I must, so have decided to start fresh, from the beginning. Thank goodness, the book is my own and I can mark it up all I want !

I promise you I will do my level best and post questions within the day. For the love of all books,

Traude

Betty, so glad to see you back ! So the move must have gone well.

That's good.

Traude

I have been a lurker, I confess. Having recently finished "Prodigal Summer" as a choice in another Bookclub on line, I will be really interested to hear your comments. Yes, others I have talked to were taken aback by the sex early on in the book, but I think when you get into it you will understand it from a different point of view. I liked Kingsolver's books about the Southwest the best, but "Poisonwood Bible" was exceptional. Looking forward to this discussion!

Hi everyone, Checked in to read the comments this morning, and I see that the sexual aspect of this book has introduced us all to a "different" Kingsolver than what we may have expected. I haven't really thought a whole lot about it yet, but at first I too was surprised by the sexual nature of this story. But, now having gotten about half way through, I believe I prefer to describe it as "sensual" rather than "sexual". After looking these words up in the dictionary (so that I could tell whether or not I knew what I was talking about), I see that both have to do with sex, pleasure, etc. etc. So, to explain what my point is, I would have to say that "sexual" is too small a word. Sensual takes in all of the senses: smell, sight, taste, touch, sound and I feel that these senses are a part of everything that happens. Example: Lusa smells cigarettes on her nephews clothes and is reminded instantly of her husband, the smell of earth, dirt, manure, animals taken all together are the smell of her husband. The smells can make her cry. The sound of rain dripping on the tin roof and into pails on the porch transport her back to her grandfather tapping out rhythms and tunes.

I see the fragil interconnection and interdependance of all living creatures to one another in the cycle of life. Sight, smell, taste, touch, sound all part of our collective memory and all working together toward survival.

Sorry, long-winded, "think I need to get out more". Ha Ha!

Cathy

Welcome, BabsNH! We are delighted to see you here especially since you bring with you a comparison of other online book clubs, we will be most interested in your comments and welcome you here!!

Look around at all our offerings! Just click on the Books & Literature underlined link at the very top or bottom of the page and you will see a menu which we hope will delight you and which you yourself may want to suggest more discussions for.

---

Cathy, I love the way you express yourself and am glad if you did choose to "get out more," hahaahhaa (I don't "get out much," myself) hahaahaa, we're glad you chose us to do it with.

This, by all accounts, will be one of the most exciting beginnings of any book discussion in a long time, closely paralled by the Renato's Luck about to start on February 14 in which not only the author but the author's wife will be participating, and it will be an unheard of event for us!

Everybody please look in there, too.

ginny

Oh, I love that thought, Quiltlady, that "sexual" is too small a word, that sensual is more appropriate. Of course.

Aye, Cricky. The Ice Storm Cometh. Err...Cathy, I meant!- I too agree. Sensual yes. This is hardly graphic. Hope no one got that impression. But mouth-wateringly sensual it is. Tactile and...and....tasty. Heck. Renato's Luck is more graphic (though it isn't too too). Honeysuckle. Yeah. Night Bloomin' Jasmine.


Charlie

I'm just delighted that this book was chosen to be reviewed by the group. I read it about a month ago and just loved it. Well, maybe I hurried over a few of the moth descriptions after a while, but the coyote references I responded to, linking them to our team of malamutes. We have a local coyote in our area. The cat owners don't love him!

Back to the book, the three main women show such great strength. I'd say this is my top favorite Kingsolver book.

2-1-01 can't come soon enough. di

WONDERFUL - let's make room, folks, the circle of reader friends is getting larger ! -x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

A WARM WELCOME to babsNH ! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Your posts are stimulating.

As I have already said, the suggestion of covering the first 100 pages when we officially begin on Thursday is not a limitation in any way, merely a first approach.

And by page 100 the reader has met the main protagonists, the tone is set, the conflicts are becoming apparent.

I agree with Cathy that the word "sensual" seems more apt (and more comprehensive). I believe it is too early to put a label on this story, a story that is much deeper and much more important than the first pages might lead one to (prematurely) believe.

We must read it carefully and savor the richness of the language without hurry.

Back later

Dianne, Babs, how great to see you joining this group! It looks like we'll be having an interested bunch of Kingsolver fans here.

My biggest concern is that I hardly remember any of the subject of biology, and I sincerely hope I don't get bogged down in a maze of references in that respect. After all, this author received a graduate degree in this subject before becoming a full time writer.

Lorrie

Want to thank you all, Traude, Ginny, and Lorrie for the warm welcome. For those of you questioning the sexual (yes sensual is a better definition) scenes, I think you should keep reading and you will see that it is not a "bodice-ripper" at all. These are women to admire.

Babs

Thank you, Babs, that is exactly what I meant.

And I tried to stay clear at first of "defining" terms, but when "steamy" came up twice, I decided it could no longer be ignored but had to be taken on. Hence my subsequent comments.

Back later

Traude

Still steamy to me.

I don't know, Charlie, "steamy" does seem more fitting, somehow. There's something sort of lush about the setting for that first love scene, the way the author describes the rain-soaked forest, and the stress on the "rutting season" and all things coming to life around them. In that almost jungle-like atmosphere, "steamy" seems appropriate, somehow!

Lorrie

Lorrie, thanks for the greeting.

My degree was in Biology but as much as I enjoyed it at the time, I've retained ever so little plus there's so very much more content now. However, the author gives you all you need to know plus the exceptional inner covers.

Steamy is as steamy does! Actually, I found those scenes pertinent to the story line.

Too bad this book is in such demand, I'd like to check it out of the library again to keep up with you all.

See ya Thursday if not before, di

I agree, Dianne. Science was never my strong suit, but I found BK's use of biology and some of her ecological theories understandable and very well woven into the fabric of the novel.


Charlie

but, but, but....looking only at writing style, Sarah's "bodice-ripper" first impression still rings a bell with me, too. No question that Kingsolver is breaking new ground for herself in such extended, sensual, sexual writing. When the discussion officially starts, we can talk about how well she pulls this off.

Yep. Also: Didactic or not? Curious to know what others felt about this. Did she have an "agenda" and was it hidden within the narraticve appropriately?

We are of the animal kingdom with all of the natural, physical and untamed desires of the beasts. This is not smut, this is the discipline of science. The birds and the bees "do it". It's quite erotic the way the BK has seduced us into all of this intimacy.

First I need to say WELCOME to Dianne; didn't mean to be so tardy but have been distracted by pain from a newly torn ligament ...

ALF, well put.

Charlie, thank you : THAT should be the opening question !

Clearly, the author is (forcefully) giving voice in this book to her own environmental concerns, and she is eminently qualified to do so by virtue of her training as a biologist. And she is a gifted, graceful writer to boot.

Many of us share her concerns; not all will instantly assent, nor realize (or admit to), the gravity of the problem, but all readers, I daresay, will gain a new, a fresh perspective.

And since the essential conflict is obvious at once, it is not premature to raise this question :

1. Is the narrative strong enough to support so heavy a message ?

Back soon

Traude

Traude - I agree, that by the force of her (Kingsolver's) talent, we do look at something in a different way: here the environment and the ecological system. After all - isn't that what art asks us to do? Look at something in a fresh way? From a different perspective? Consider what we know through another lens?

The quick answer to your question, for me, is yes: the narrative is strong enough to support so heavy a message - although just barely. And not as strong and as "supportive" as in Poisonwood Bible (although as I recall, there were dissenters there on this very issue). But I loved The Poisonwood Bible so much that this statement in no way diminishes my affection for and enjoyment of this book. This assessment is just my own and preliminary. I have found that one of the great things about sharing a book here is that my judgements always change, if only sometimes subtly.

You posed that question very well, by the way. Lots to talk about there as we get started tomorrow.
Charlie

There's something I don't quite understand. Are there any entomologists out there reading these posts?

I thought the author's description of the mating habits of the moths was fascinating, but when she mentioned several times about the moths having no mouths, I became confused. Does anyone know what she meant?

Traude, I'm so sorry to hear about your new source of pain. Let's hope it' much better, and soon!

Lorrie

Lorrie- I'm not an entomologist (I only play one on tv } BUT-
I believe she was referring to one particular kind of moth whose males (at least) had no mouths: in other words they could procreate - their only reason for being - but could not sustain their own lives - only give life - pass it on to the next generation. A startling image indeed.


Charlie

# 1 was merely the beginning, and I have Charlie to thank for laying it out for me.

I really don't believe we should get all "hung up" about nature and about doing what is, after all, nature's business. It is, really, tastefully expressed. Not really designed for prurient tastes.

What about the Io moth and those HUGE eyes, designed to startle predators ? WOW.

Thank you Lorrie. I have an appointment with the orthopedic surgeon tomorrow a.m. and hope surgery can be avoided -- or postponed --

Traude

This is the day and I am ready to take the plunge -- into the discussion, that is.

Will be here till 11, then leave for appointment and will be back home as soon as I can thereafter. The waiting time in the office cannot be predicted with any certainty.

Everyone, please jump in !

Traude

I think Charlie's and Traude's question is very apt. Kingsolver always has an agenda with her books - and generally, I agree with it. She was very much anti-colonial in Poisonwood Bible, and even included a chapter toward the end of the book that contained her whole diatribe blaming the west for establishing dictatorships in Africa. Here, her environmentalism is evident early on in the book. Since I agreee with her point of view, it does not offend, but there is something slightly caricatured about her characters. The man who loves weed killer. The ranger who loves coyotes. We are being told whom to support, and the point of view that is the "good" one, pretty early in the book, I think.

By the same token, I am only about a third of the way through the book, so this heavy-handedness may soften as I go on.

Did anyone ever read or see the film adaptation of AS Byatt's Angels and Insects? There is something very reminiscent in Prodigal Summer of Byatt's use of insect behavior, their fecundity, as an analogy for human relations.

Yes, as always Kingsolver has an agenda- several that I see- some I agree with -others- not- and all very well woven into the novel.

As a practicing econ-nut or whatever Limbaugh calls us I was sensitive to and interested in her ecological agenda- somewhat overstated in some aspects to fit her plot (more later on Coyotes)

But I detected also a femininst agenda- females in her nature always seem to win out- the men in her novels get short shrift- and on and on- nothing new here.

But I also did some math and figure both Kingsolver and Deanne (sp) would be about 45 and seemed to detect a pre menopausal agenda- 45 year old females are not over the hill sexually is the message.I knew that.

They certainly aren't but neither are old codgers devoted to raising Chestnut trees. Or reading novels were the purple passages are all sprinkled with green.

Please let me get my breath -- have not been home for very long and looked at e-mails first; some needed an answer at once.

Jim, I am sorry not to have acknowledged your post earlier during the pre-discussion exchanges.

Leave it to Sarah to bring up A.S. Byatt, an author I like, though I am not familiar with the book Sarah mentioned. I do know that Byatt is the sister of the equally brilliant Margaret Drabble whom I revered. But we are not here to discuss either one, now, are we ? So I will refrain sand concentrate on Prodigal Summer.

As I have said before, elsewhere, there can be a problem for me with preprared questions, for answers are not always readily apparent. This was particularly so for me in this case. And it is a shortcoming because I am the discussion leader !

So I have decided to just read on and absorb; if questions arise, I will ask. But everyone, anyone, please contribute as much as you want, right here, right now.

Traude

One thing I noticed right off is the structure of the book. Did you find the Chapters very, very similar to Poisonwood Bible? As I recall the chapters were all named after the daughters, for the most part, and switched back and forth between them. This is similar here - she gives us three sets of stories:

1. PREDATORS
2. MOTH LOVE
3. OLD CHESTNUTS

I found this, of course, easy to follow. I found it comfortable and familiar. But I couldn't shake the sense that it was a bit formulaic. She's done that. In fact she just did it. Again, this is a minor quibble. (Why am I concentrating on what I don't like?)

Anyway. Terrific beginning. Predators. The way we're introduced to Deanna is nicely effective. She's revealed slowly, like a predator that has blended in to the forest…the movement of her body…the quiet steps; the long-legged gait…the squats on the path. Eddie is revealed as suddenly as she is revealed slowly. He is obviously a "predator" in the confines of the novel. But what about her? Is she a predator also? These chapters, essentially about Eddie Bondo and Deanna [lone] Wolfe (of course) are entitled PredatorS. Plural. So I figure she must be a Predator also???

SarahT: Eddie marking his territory by peeing off the porch certainly is a bit cartoonish, I guess, huh?


Charlie

Exactly, Charlie.

In the Poisonwood Bible the storyline was carried forward by different narrative voices - and how revelatory THAT was reflecting also the participants themselves. Nothing short of brilliant, I thought. That the father was never heard from directly was clearly intentional. See below.

In Prodigal Summer, Kingsolver makes use of the same modus operandi, except that what unites the narrative voices is not the family's adventure/predicament, but instead the common concern for the environment shared by people who barely know each other, if in fact they do.

I agree it could be called formulaic, and it probably is. But Kingsolver is not the first, nor in all probability the last, to use a proven literary device more than once to good effect.

The author certainly has the courage of her convictions, and that has endeared her to me because it is a stance I had always taken, automatically and without a thought, until someone pointed it out to me, to my huge surprise, and dubbed me a "crusader", a long long time ago.

But even forcefully expressed convictions cannot always persuade onlookers; certainly not if those onlookers (for want of a better word) have not been aware of, or had reason to be concerned with, a given subject and its vital import.

Take the coyote. Frankly, I had never heard of coyotes before I came to this country and never given them any thought- until now. And is that any wonder ?

Early on in the book Kingsolver says that wildlife was successfully eradicated in Europe (she doesn't say where exactly) long ago, and that is true.

On the other hand, that was a natural, in fact an INEVITABLE development, simply because Europe does not HAVE the wide open spaces we enjoy here (and vastly underappreciated they are !)

Except possibly in Siberia where the climate is unforgiving, as everyone knows. A look at any map will confirm my allegations. Would that we learned to be grateful for, admire and preserve what was given to us - it may not last forever ...

Jim is right re the agenda : I think Kingsolver has one, but it is not only a feminine outlook but a HUMAN agenda: she is a voice speaking for millions, men and women, who still cannot do so for whatever reason , and may not even fathom the basic principles of equity - as opposed to centuries of subjugation, subservience and the automatic, arbitrary limits gender imposes at birth.

Getting back to mouthless moths with expressive eyes to startle predators ...

Traude

Sarah: The Bravo Channel on Cable TV recently showed the movie "Angels and Insects," and I noticed a marked similarity to the analogy of that Victorian aristocratic family and the hero's ant colony, and Barbara Kingsolver's heroine Lusa. Both stories give a pointed message as to the similarity between the lives of humans and insects.

Lorrie

The one exception, Sarah, I found in Kingsolver's telling us through her characters (how to think) what is good/bad is Deanna's back and forth thoughts on eating meat.

I agree, Jim, about the feminist agenda hints---but these, at least, were more subtle than the clearer ecological concerns. I admit, too, that I wondered why Kingsolver needed to give our mid-forties woman a 25 year old body---that weakened, for me at least, the feminist thought that women in their forties are still sexy. She didn't fall into that for Nannie, though, but how could she have with an 80 something woman.

Yeah, Charlie, why are we only talking of the things we didn't like or is Poisonwood Bible getting in the way, possibly?

I really liked this book, formulas and all, heavy and transparent agendas and all. All three story lines were compelling, although I had the best time laughing through Garnet and Nannie's chapters. Kingsolver writes great dialogue. Funny, funny. One of her characters said, "Well, I swan." An aunt of mine used to say, "Well, I swanny." Close to today's expression of "I swear."

Green brochade chairs. A sneaky mystery thread.

I am a fan of Kingsolver and like her books- but that doesn't stop me from pointing out what I don't like- and her excessive beating on men is one of them-

I haven't yet found a well developed male character in any of her novels who isn't a caricature or streotype, a foil for feminist propaganda or a fool of some type.

And in this novel that includes the mouthless male moths and the male spiders who need their heads bitten off by the feamle in order to function properly sexually.

Nature has other males as well- and humanity does too.

We are not all fireworks gazers symbolically fornicating with the sky, sex crazed by scents, peeing off the porch to mark our territory- I go out further into the woods myself.

It is interesting to see that so many of you got a similar feeling from this book, as I did. I said before in an earlier post that this was my least favorite Kingsolver, althoughI did enjoy it. Almost from the beginning I began to feel that the characters had been simplified to reach the most people, sort of "dumbed down". If her agenda was to educate the most people about the subject, then I guess that would be the way to do it. It did disappoint me somewhat. I did love the mood of Deanna's world. It reminded me of a much loved book that I read as a child, "The Girl of the Limberlost", by Gene Stratton Porter. It gave me such a feeling of dark, dank, woodland, with all the smells and sounds. I reread that book a few years back to try to recapture the mystery I felt then, but it was not there. It was just a story. It did contain moths, so I guess that's what triggered the memory. In the summer, we have the beautiful Luna moths decorating the side of our barn where this is an all-night lamp. They are breath-taking, and sometimes stay around all day so that they can be admired. We have also had a large comeback of coyote in this area in the past 10 - 20 years. I will hear them soon up on the side of the mountain nearby; I thought I did the other night when I was out with my pup. My husband has seen them in our neighborhood early in the morning. The book triggered my curiosity to find out how Fish and Game handles hunting of them. We have several remote sheep farmers in this area, and I want to find out how they are affected. I know that many blame them for loss of pets. The solution to that is to keep pets confined, of course. So, although, from a recreational point of view, it was not my favorite book recently, it certainly activated some wonder.

I'm trying hard to see what you're seeing, Jim, and for a moment I do (Poisonwood bible---same perceptions were mentioned), then I slide into thinking of the equal-handed treatment of Lusa's inlaws. Kingsolver poured on the polyester pantsuits, eye makeup and dyed hair rather generously on the women, don't you think? The husbands didn't seem nearly as ridiculous. Little Rickie (Rick) didn't seem to fit a stereotype.

While keeping in mind your understandable complaints, I'd also say that I like how Kingsolver's men in this book like women (with the exception of the alcoholic runaway husband). Some male authors, while trying to get the details right on male and female relationships, leave an undercurrent of discomfort or distance. Some male authors give words for women to speak that leave me wondering who doesn't like whom. In this book, males and females of every species are drawn to each other---each of the three stories contains a coming together, a growing understanding of "other." Even Garnet Walker's silliness is thin enough for us to see how drawn he is to a woman for the first time in years.

Another thought---there is a playfulness in some of the stereotyped behavior that I found ok here. Very different from the deadly serious portrayals in Poisonwood.

--------------------------------------------------------

Green brochade chairs.

that the book is growing on me; I read far into the night. There is an important revelation about Deanna's father and Nannie, and I have to go over that again.

More questions :

2. I have the impression that "predators" defines more than just the coyotes. Am I way off base here ?

3. One of the reviews (and I read as many as I could lay my hands on) mentions three strong women, clearly Deanna, Lusa and Nannie.

True enough. But Nannie is less fully realized than the other two who are younger. Why is that, I wonder ?

Betty, I think Nannie is about 10 years younger than Garnett, about 70 it seems. The description of their uneasy relationship is comical.

I would like to explore the feminist aspects more fully in answer to Jim's justified comments because it is necessary.

I will do that later when the Friday cleaning upheaval is over.

Happy reading

Traude

We have an interesting discussion going, considering that we have been "at it" only since yesterday.

Kingsolver has us thinking, she has our attention, mixed with an element of surprise perhaps. After the Poisonwood Bible this is not quite what we expected !

But I will try hard not to express definitive views, which might have to be revised possibly, and comment instead as I go.

Kingsolver is a sharp observer, of the men also (the size of one brother-in-law's Adams apple). She is an unashamed feminist but not in a strident, militant, offensive way, and she is not a man basher, quite the contrary, in this book and- from what we hear- in her personal life.

She is expressing in her books her own views of life, the environment and male-female relationships - the human condition, we might say. She does so with gusto and is extremely articulate, bless her. And these are her own personal views, she is entitled to voice them, and I for one do not consider them to be propagandist.

I have said elsewhere that in my humble opinion is not absolutely necessary to LIKE any given book to have a profitable discussion, even though "liking" the story or the protagonists, or all of it, clearly helps.

In the course of the days and weeks ahead we will have a chance to try my theorem. This is OUR place, this is OUR chance to talk about things/differences that concern us and establish, if we can, a better understanding of what unites rather than what separates men and women, if that is vox populi - the voice of the people, here.

Now to get back to the male characterizations in the book for a minute, here is question # 4. WHAT is Eddy Bono ? Where does he fit in ? Is he a stereotype or "simpatico" , insignificant, expendable, or what ?

Traude

BabsNH: Your description of the area where you live is very vivid. Where in the country do you live? Please let us know what you find out how they handle the problem of coyote infestation where you are' There are many myths about these animals, one I heard out in California that they carry off babies.

Traude, your question about Eddie Bondo-----I believe he is definitely a Predator! I feel that he is not insignificant, because even though he represents everything that Deanna hates, she has become hopelessly enamored of him, and I think he will change her life forever as the story progresses.

Lorrie

Charlie, in your post #75 I liked what you said about the way Kingsolver "labels" each chapter, just as she did in Poisonwood Bible. This way, we know immediately who is featured, which makes it all very neat, and as one reads further, this symbolism becomes even more apparent' Formulaic it may be, but it did make it easier to read, and I felt quite comfortable reading in this method.

Lorrie

Lorrie, My post must have sounded as if I lived in wilderness. I do not, but wilderness is making it's inroads back to this section of Southern NH. I live on the edge of a very small town, and there is a small mountain next to us. When I was a child we never saw anything wilder than a fox, and heard an occassional bobcat screaming. Now we have moose, black bear, fisher, coyote, actually many varieties of beasts and fowl have come back. Around the cities, Boston is about 80 miles away, it is a real problem. Deer eat all the shrubbery in those manicured lawns, huge moose endanger drivers and sometimes roam around city neighborhoods. They are sometimes killed by Animal Control or vehicles. Around here pasture land has been reclaimed by forest, but not too far away, urban sprawl is pushing these animals from their habitats. I am going to research the coyote, and will get back to you on it. I believe, as in the book, that they mainly hunt for small prey, so I suppose if you left your baby alone in the woods, it might disappear! They are very shy creatures, and it is rare to see one. I love to hear them at night though, and in the spring after the pups are born. Or are they called kits? I forget.

I don't know that I would call Eddie Bondo a predator, but then I have finished the book, so I won't say more now. I am sure enjoying your comments, everyone.

Oh my gosh, what an enligthening discussion. So much insight has been shown here. I am uncertain how to proceed as there are so many issues to address. From the get go, I have seen this as a woman emerging from a long sleep. Following divorce she insulated hereself for two years, seeking refuge in the arms of the forest. Deanna emerges from her coccoon in Predators and continues her healing throughout the remainder of the book. All that she experiences is parrelled with nature; the birds, the bees, the shifting of cycles, moons rising and falling and yes, reproduction. Many times I experienced Deanna's sense of "tempus fugit." Her solitary life is replaced by an awareness of her own sexual energy, desire and longing for something other than seclusion. We know that this cosmos, as she has known it has altered and we await her cognizance.

Eddie Bono is a sperm source and a foil pure and simple.

And that in spite of the colored condoms he uses.

Sorry- I can''t discuss a novel chapter by chapter- I have to see it all as a whole.

And it seems Kingsolver has discovered the Romance Novel forumla- get your hero and heroine in bed fornicating within the first chapter- the sooner the better.

He is really out of place and highly improbable.

If one is a peripatetic bounty hunter for coyotes there are far better places to be.

But he is needed for Kingsolver to carry on her sometimes quite pedantic ecological agenda and her feminist agenda that men only mess up child rearing- get them to heck out of the picture. Kill them off in a truck accident- have them run off (as drakes do once impregnating a hen- or a male bear- or a Buck- or whatever natural symbol you wish to use- a billy goat)

Mother (preferably a single mother ) knows best.

Did you know that a male Bluegill (bream) fans and guard the eggs in the shallow nest in the gravel to insure that they hatch and guards them from predators (often the female who laid the eggs)?

You won't learn it from Kingsolver.

But Jim,

that is EXACTLY what I do myself and aim to do HERE : consider the story as a whole, hold my horses and my definitive views until the end.

However, as we proceed in our reading, specific impressions and questions DO come up, it's inevitable, in fact they already HAVE ! So we should feel free to comment on those any time- amicably of course, and as objectively as we can muster.

Surely I don't need to remind you all here that I am a relative newcomer to the varied illustrious groups of Seniornet.org, but already an incontrovertible devotee -- most especially of Books and Literature, which is hardly surprising given my singular life-long passion for books.

When I was asked to become a Discussion Leader, I was surprised and humbled.

Now since DLs can use their own MODUS OPERANDI (and each book may well require its own specific tailor-made "handling"), I decided NOT to start out by "assigning" chapters to fit the time frame = the month of February, but to begin by addressing initially just the first 100 pages of the book. And I hoped readers would approve.

Similarly, I am developing questions AS WE PROCEED and hope that my approach will be acceptable to the reading participants.

Of course we can voice whatever impression or thought occurs to us as we are reading, and we SHOULD ! That is precisely the reason for this exercise !

------------------------------------------------------------------ babs, I too had wondered where you are living, BUT I should have known it'd be somewhere in charmed, special New England ! I have been to NH several times in the past few years, only briefly, never in the summer when those black flies seem to be a plague, as I have heard; usually only for the big holidays when my son's inlaws congregate there for meetings of the clan and generously include me and my then visiting California daughter. Ah, where would be be without human contact ?

Here in Massachusetts the coyotes have also made new inroads and startling reappearances, and can be heard, e.g., in the woods behind a convent in nearby Kingston. The nuns were much afraid.

And the same goes for deer- wandering blindly on to highways and into cars at night, causing fatalities. Is this a time when state authorities should look into the rules governing the hunting of wildlife - and/or lifting (easing) the restrictions thereof ? Horrendous stories were reported in the press of deer wandering into suburban neighborhoods ...

To conclude, as of now I think Eddy Bondo is endearing.

Traude

Yes, he (Eddie Bondo) is a most pleasing (handsome, intelligent, gentle, thoughtful) sperm choice. Deanna made a good choice for a mate. In my imaginary sequel he will return and be a fantastic daddy and resolve never to shoot a coyote. Alf, I really liked your phrase about Deanna emerging from her cocoon, and it makes me happy to read posts from people like you who can put such insights into words.

Jim, I agree that Kingsolver's politics are quite transparent, but at least she doesn't reduce her characters to stereotypes. Particularly the portrait she gives us of Garnett is overwhelmingly sympathetic, despite his troubles with the chestnut trees and crop-devouring insects.

Some readers might call this book a maifesto against agricultural pesticides and bounties on predator animals, but it is still beautifully conceived fiction, in my opinion.

Lorrie

betty mentioned that she "wondered why Kingsolver needed to give our mid-forties woman a 25 year old body." I wondered the same. A bit disingenuous I thought.

But what did I miss in the Eddie Bondo character? Or in Little Rickie, for that matter? Didn't seem like bad guys at all - and this from someone who has no affinity for hunting or hunters at all. A caricature? A stereotype? A foil for feminist propaganda? Right over my head, I guess. I know that for myself, if I read with an agenda -I can always uncover one myself. Hmm. Like the bluegill around these parts, they'll spit out bait that isn't the real thing.

I liked what ALF said about reading this book as "a woman emerging from a long sleep." That's a valid perception, I think. With Renato's Luck, that makes two books back to back I've read about a rebirth of sorts.

How similar the parallels between Deanna-Eddie and Lusa-Cole. And Garnett's awakening to the awakening of Deanna that Alf pointed out.


Charlie

Alf, that was an apt description : of Deanna's coming out of her cocoon ! We are learning more about her--- as when she tells Eddie that she does not really miss the people in Zebulon Valley and is happy with her solitary work on the mountain. Perceptions changed slightly after he came on the scene !

None of us lives in a vacuum, and we need human exchange on many levels, whether we admit it or not. "Even the most hardened misanthrope needs people -- if only to hate them ..." said a 19th century women aphorist.

Yes Lorrie, Eddie is a predator of sorts, and so is man in the realm of nature. I think Kingsolver gives a very touching portrayal of Garnett; the reader cannot help but admire him for his convictions and perseverance.

Two memories came flooding back as I read and I will share them with you tomorrow. I must go off-line now, am waiting for my CA daughter's call.

Happy Sunday Evening

Traud

Just for fun, and I mean it...for fun, just to purposefully step waaay over to a narrow feminist thinking, here's how I might review Kingsolver's 3 stories.

I'd say, oh, boy, does this NOT meet a true feminist's idea of independent women...of independent women who love men and are with the men they love. I'd say, what??? does every woman HAVE TO, have to have babies to be fulfilled? Think about it....all three stories are moving in that direction. One of the women does not even get to give her CONSENT.

I think most feminists I know would not be too happy with some implied themes in this book, so (grin, grin, grin), if pushed, I'd probably say this book isn't feminist ENOUGH for me.

Now, I'll go back to the broader responses I had, because I still enjoyed so much about her writing. For one thing, it let me revisit my wild surroundings on the (my) Oregon coast---the forest smell and dampness and isolation. I didn't want anything to take Deanna away from her mountain. I was ready to join her there, say, a mile away in my own cabin.

Betty,

within the context of the book the feminist angle is understandable.

And I for one have no real problem with the fact that Eddie is 28 and Deanna forty-something.

Are their absolutes ? Must the man always be older than the woman AND taller? (My mother thnought so.) But why do we frown on (or consider weird) the relationship between an older woman with a younger man while we accept without blinking the union between a much older man and the trophy wife/woman ? (remember A MAN IN FULL by Tom Wolfe ?)

Eddie Bondo is younger than Deanna by some 15 years, by my reckoning, and also half a head or so shorter. But does that matter ? A dear old friend of mine whom I have known forever is 16 years older than her husband, they are together still and I have rarely seen a marriage this strong.

More tomorrow.

Traude

Edie's aura of masculinity and virlity are used by the author to demonstrate "an awakening" of nature.(Deanna's) Remember she even felt that there were very few men who could keep her with her long legged natural gait. She could have happily lived on the Mt. forever, viewing God's green earth. BK tells us early on that Eddie Bondo clobbered her thoughts. Like an alarm clock, he woke her. No, more like a trumpet, alerting all of her senses! She felt his presence, for sure. In Prothalamiumthe last verse is: "and when he comes, our murdered dreams shall wake; and when he comes, all the mute birds shall sing."

Just finished reading Kingsolvers latest "Prodigal Summer" Excellent read enjoyed it even more than Poisonwood Bible" if that is possible.Was first introduced to that author with Poisonwood Bible" Plan on reading all her previous books I think she has at least 4 novels before "Bible" especially enjoyed feisty "Nannie" and her charmingly irritating neighbor Garnett

It was late when I posted and I apologize for the grammatical error. Of course I meant to say " Are THERE absolutes".

Yes Alf, you put it perfectly : a reawakening indeed it was, for both Deanna, and Lusa too- for different reasons.

Now to the memories : During one of my summer visits at my grandfather's farm I became suddenly aware of a pervasive, very strong, unfamiliar, really awful odor. Of course I asked no questions and nobody volunteered information : my mother (who never came along on the visits) was very "formal" and had made it clear that she wanted me shielded from anything connected with the birds and the bees...

Eventually I found out that the odor had to do with the billy goat close by and that the villagers would furtively go down there at dusk with their does when the time was right for mating. I believe money changed hands after the service was performed, but I was never curious enough to find out details.

The other memory converns Japanese beetles. Though neither my husband nor I had the proverbial thumb (at least not then), we eagerly planted a number of extravagantly beautiful rosebushes on our first property in this country. Where we came from, their efflorescence is brief.

We had never heard of or seen Japanese beetles and were devastated when large numbers of them descended upon the roses and systematically destroyed every last one of them. In fact we were so shaken we never planted another rosebush -

Traude

Ya know, the more I think about it, the less comfortable I am with the ....well, all the things you listed, Alf, which certainly fit what Kingsolver wrote about Eddie Bondo's effect on Deanna. What you wrote fits. However, I don't like the melodramatic, being swept off one's feet, the old physical surrender, I couldn't help myself, out of my head, swoon, vapors, quick, where's the fainting couch. Pardon the sentence structure. I get pretty antsy with all this stuff. Don't like it. Major stereotypes of women. The worst one, of course, isn't printable---all she needs is a good______. Well, Kingsolver pretty much takes us down that path---with intricate setting and an interesting plot and not so shabby love scenes. What keeps creeping into my thoughts, however....at the worst, Eddie B. is so great in the sex department that the stark value differences are difficult for Deanna to hold onto. At best, Eddie B. comes to awaken this sleeping princess who is not smart enough to get herself off the mean old mountain. And everyone knows a woman alone cannot just hang around a mountain and forest by herself.

I know I run the risk of being taken literally when I write without going back to make neat, clean, palatable sentences. But I'm trusting you'll let me let this ONE thread of my thinking take flight without causing a storm. It feels risky for ME, too, to take aim at one of my favorite writers. The odd part, too, is I only had a vague uneasiness as I was reading, but now, am finding more to question.

-------------------------------------------

Traude, we were posting at the same time. The Oregon slugs, scads of them, pretty much wrecked everything I tried to grow. There are 101 suggestions on keeping slugs away and I tried them all---the best were copper wires dipped in pepper sauce wound around terra cotta pots.

Hi, Bessbess, and welcome to this terrific group of readers. Not so long ago, we discussed Poisonwood Bible and it was one of our best book discussions---if you'd like to take a look at it sometime, the discussion is in the Archives of Previously Discussed Books (is that the name?). Anyway, it's the only "Archives" folder---you'll see it as you scroll down the long list of book discussions on the main Books & Lit page (Welcome folder at the top).

I'll confess I grinned when I saw your name Bessbess because I've started calling my cat Sam yet another variation---SamSam. (formerly Sammy, then Sam, now SamSam. poor cat)

I'm crazy about Garnet and Nannie, too. The thoughts that Kingsolver writes for Garnet are just too funny, some kind of sad-funny, but funny.

Betty - the one thing they say about slugs is that they don't survive if there is contamination in the environment - so the fact they were there was kind of a good sign.

We had lots of them here in San Francisco when I was a kid, but I haven't seen one in years. It's just too polluted here now.

BessBess, You will enjoy the older Kingsolver books I think, I liked them all. My youngest daughter started me on them when whe was in college, and doing Women's Studies. They are mostly about the Southwest, and the culture there, but very enjoyable. As great as Prodigal Summer and Poisonwood Bible are, I think the earlier books are still my favorites.

Well, using information from the book, I would say that whatever critters were supposed to be eating up the slugs must have been missing. Slug predators.

Welcome BESSBESS ! It is wonderful that our circle is still expanding.

Please take my small-print welcome and MAGNIFY it to any size imaginable; one of these days I hope to be be able to achieve some of Lorrie's and others' formidable large-size technological feats, in living color yet ! -- if I ever find the time to take a class !

bessbess, since you have already finished the book while some of us are still wrestling with it, your comments will be valuable. And that goes also for DIANNE who like you has read the entire book.

May I repeat that all views can be voiced, we are not aiming for a consensus after all, and sharing makes us more aware.

Traude

I should think that by the time Deanne (Barabara K) had reached 47 (I think that is about it) she might have come to the realization that sex is not only fun - it is also funny.

But it so deadly serious in the novel- all controlled by pheremones driving the process-

The old man comes in for some satire in his awkward approach to the subject and gives us the only comic relief in the novel.

Making out in the woods isn't what it's cracked up to be and could have marvelous satiric moments.

Not here.

Well, maybe a moment or two with the poor overworked and over stimulated Billy Goats and Deanes conversations with Crystal on the subjext.

Welcome BessBess I agree with BabsNH and encourage you to read Kingsolver's earlier books also. Well, I have been planning a quilt for a 50th wedding anniversary coming up for my sister and her husband. Been researching southwestern color schemes because they live in Arizona. (Everytime I look out at the snow, I wish I lived in Arizona). I am nearly done with the book, and I have been faithfully reading all of the interesting postings here. As I previously said, I am new to this, but here goes. I have a sense of slow motion, long lazy days, moving as if in a dream with Deanna and Eddie. Almost like watching them under water. The colors are green and blue with just a few spackles of light glistening through the lushness. The sex did not bother me for being part of this. Let's face it, it is part of the dance of life.

However, I don't think Deanna would just take up with Eddie like she did here. I just find it totally unrealistic that someone devoted to keeping the coyotes from becoming extinct would fall into bed with someone devoted to wiping them all off the face of the earth. He moves in, literally, and she just lets him stay. Just doesn't seem real. It feels like she is not being true to who she really is. She seems to be a strong and dedicated woman, who loses all her marbles every time this guy gets near her.

I'm bothered by Lusa also. She's had her share of trouble, but how miraculously everything seems to start working out after Cole dies. Bit by bit, she is accepted by all her in-laws, (seems like everything was a misunderstanding), she's the only one who can tame Chrys, and, of course, Jewel's children love her. The goats are just the perfect solution, and the guys all seem to want to fall all over themselves to help her out.

I like Garnet and Nannie the best, but a bit too stereotypical. They are "too cute", too "grouchy old men". A couple of endearing "old farts". I want to use the word, "patronizing", to describe Kingsolver's presentation of them, but perhaps that is too harsh?

I like the ideas being expressed in this book. I'm a real believer in the connections between all things, and the spiritual quality of that. But, this book forces it's opinions so constantly, in almost every description, and every conversation that it just takes over the stories.

"Poisonwood" on the other hand seemed to weave the lessons of Kingsolver's point of view throughout the story in a far less intrusive way.

On the more positive side, I did learn more about our fragile and delicate ecosystem. Kingsolver's descriptions are beautiful. The writing alone will keep me reading her books.

Cathy

Cathy,

your creative abilities are obvious from the way you refer to the lushness of the Appalachian summer in Zebulon Valley and on Zebulon Mountain, and I can visualize the beauty of your quilts.

Are you using typical southwestern colors, or browns, and/or Indian motifs perhaps for that special anniversary quilt you are working on ?

I visited New Mexico a few years ago and fell in love with the southwestern colors, the Indian lore, and meant to go back again, to visit Arizona also. Alas, it hasn't come to pass yet.

Back to PRODIGAL SUMMER. Yes I think there is a certain giddiness about Deanna; she is clearly besotted by this young man, and the reader wonders. But how do we ever REALLY know what attracts one being to another, and why ?

I too wonder a bit about Lusa in terms of sheer logic, and the character's ethnic background (more about that another time). The storyline is clearly a deliberate construct, and the first question raised here remains. So I ask it again :

If indeed there is a message (and I think we can agree there is), and if that message is the bedrock, is the overlay, i.e. the plot, substantial enough or is it too thin ? Of course we don't have to answer until we are done reading.

Jim, the love-making does get a bit tedious, I admit. Endless variations on the same theme, i.e. the dance of life, as Cathy has said. But we are free to skip whatever paragraph offends our sensibilities and go on to the next page !

To reiterate, I find the characterization of Garnett moving and see no deliberate ridiculing of the character, certainly no cruelty. There are very beautiful passages and I will try and jot some down, soon.

Traude

Traude, I agree with your summation of Garnett. I like him the most of all the characters. He fumbles, he stumbles, he's self-righteous, but hit him over the head enough times and he starts to listen. His persistance in the cross-breeding of his beloved chestnut trees gives his character stength. His tenderness, which he tries to hide from everyone including himself, grows and blossoms as his character is developed through the book. He just wants enough time to finish what is so important to him. Where I am reading now, he is beginning to be surprised and maybe a little delighted with his impish neighbor.

The Anniversary quilt will be a very traditional pattern, the Double Wedding Ring. However, traditional stops there with the introduction of the colors. When I think of traditional southwestern colors, I think of the soft aquas, corals, sand, etc. But, I think a little more zing would be appropriate. Perhaps a deep coral, some purple, adobe, etc. Some suggested that I study pictures of brilliant sunsets and there would be my palette. There are fairly large areas of plain fabric in this quilt where Indian symbols and motifs could be appliqued or simply quilted in contrasting threads. The posibilities are endless.

Good night, All! (I am a very early riser, 4:00am - 5:00am) Will check in with y'all tomorrow.

Cathy

Before moving back to the cities, my husband and I had bought 40 acres of land out in the "boonies" of Northern Wisconsin, and as former "city dwellers," were fascinated with the joys of living out in the forests amid all the wonderful birds and beasts. Kingsolver's description of that particular life style brought back many memories, and as I read this book, I'm brought back to those same delights. I remember, in particular, how enthralled I was every season, to recognize the different songbirds and the hours of wonderful watching of all those species that this author knows so well. How we loved our house in the woods, and all it entailed. Wood-burning stoves, kerosene lamps for the many frequent power outages, struggles with a septic system, the way we had to hide our dogs every deer-hunting season for fear they would be mistaken for a white-tail! I think we would be there still, If my husbnd's health hadn't deteriated so bad. The Prodigal Summer, and the lyrical way it was written, brings it all back to me!

Lorrie

Lorrie - beautifully said!

It's been a very long day; I am getting to the computer late, too late in fact for any meaningful discussion.

But I wanted to come in here quickly to greet you before retiring.

We had a snowstorm of surprising intensity yesterday, but thank god the driveway was plowed, my walkway shoveled this morning and I was able to get to the board meeting of my group. A very long one it was. This evening AOL was temporarily inaccessible.

Just wanted you to know I have not deserted, and I'm reading. I think Kingsolver excels when she describes children - she did that so beautifully in PIGS IN HEAVEN and THE POISONWOOD BIBLE.

Back tomorrow

Traude

I certainly enjoyed the book. I'll have to lean toward Jim's thoughts. The three women are soooo strong and the men fill in the gaps.

At times Kingsolver's soap box is ever so obvious. It did make me think, especially with Nannnie's anti spraying agenda vs natural predators.

Here in our Colorado residential neighborhood, we see deer, antelope, fox, coyote, one misplaced adolescent bear last year, and mountain lion scat, (they're after deer).

How do you pronounce coyote? Being a 5th generation Coloradan, my relatives have always rhymed it with note. Since the cartoon, I hear the prevalent coyotee.

di

Deanne is not attempting to keep coyotes form becoming extinct and Eddie is not trying to wipe them off the face of the earth.

She is trying to return them to some ecologcal balance as important facets of the larger ecological scheme. The problem (even in the novel) is not that they are disappearing- far from it, they are multipling and spreading their range far from what it was in pre-settlement times.

Eddie is trying (he is really a fake character in many ways) to protect ranchers raising various types of livestock from coyote predation and doing it very stupidly and ineffectively (as Deanne points out).

Central to the theme and plot in some ways is Deanne's masters thesis on Coyote reproductive and range response to stress (mainly caused by ineffective predation controls- with ranchers as enemies Coyotes don't need friends as everything ranchers do only tends to increase coyote population and widen their range)

That theisis has a counterpart in fact- It is a pretty close summary of an actual Doctorate dissertation (done by a scientist about 30 years prior to Deanne's assumed thesis) that did show the biologcal processes explaining how going after coyotes (unlike going after wolfes or Grizzlies) only tends to increase their population by stimulating reproduction and dispersal.

The same process, by the way, works with the white tail deer which is over populating many areas of the country and really messing up the natural ecologicval balance (having more large preadators- inclucing man- won't really help much here either as Deanne claims - but that is another issue.)

At any rate the real problem from a ecologist's pont of view is not the occasional bounty hunter like Eddie (and they really don't exist on the level Kingsolver poses and certainly not in the area she puts Eddie- he is just not a believable character for anyone but a romance novel addict- a market Kingsolver is obviously trying to enter).

The real problem is the widespread use of various poisoning techniques that not only gets the coyotes but wipes out many other species as well (Golden Eagles are one example) and disturbs the ecological balance in all the many subtle ways that Deanne points out- She does an excellent job of showing how all of the critters and plants in nature are related to each other.

Another place she cheats a little is in downplaying the effects of coyote predation on livestock- particularly with species like sheep and/or goats- It can be much more devastating than she illustrates. I have a freind in Wisconsin who lost her entire flock of 20 goats to coyotes - and didn't complain.

Domestic sheep and goats are not part of any natural ecological balance and are ill equipped ny nature to resist wild (or domestic) canid predation- they are easy prey unless protected in some way and my friend didn't blame the coyotes but herself for not protecting them more effectively.

The reason large predators just take what they need to eat in a natural setting is that they wear themselves down getting their prey and it is just not effective to take more than they need.

Give them a prey that is very easy to take and they have no such control.

That moth gal is really misled if she thinks the coyotes will take only one or two of her baby goats unless she makes it really hard for them to get them.

My point, Jim, was simply that I felt Deanna and Eddie were a very unlikely couple. Cathy

I've been exposed to a great number of different viewpoints throughout this read. The fact that BK is attempting to break into the romance genre now had not even occurred to me.

I agree with Cathy :

Deanna and Eddie are an unlikely couple- in every respect. I believe the "setup" is intentional - in order to bring the fundamental differences and conflicts existing in the story on SEVERAL levels into sharper focus, and into people's consciousness ---leading to greater awareness.

Awareness should (ideally) engender concern, eventually encourage debate, permit laying the groundwork for future changes- beneficial one would hope. Obviously, there will always be at least TWO sides to any issue.

The issues BK has raised in this book so forcefully are not only the endangered species in the animal and plant kingdoms, but the future on this planet of homo sapiens himself. BK deserves credit for giving voice to those concerns (which millions share) in novelistic form -- the reading public was not quite prepared for THIS after TPB !

That approach is didactic, as Charlie has said, and to absorb the complex scientific lessons she imparts (gosh, they have changed drastically since I sat in my science classes so long ago) is not easy. Thank you, Jim, for outlining point and counterpoint; that is always salutary and definitely necessary in this case.

I have progressed to Chapter 20 and find myself going back often to compare "things" (I am a stickler for details). But, to second Alf, I don't think BK fits into the Romance genre.

Traude

I agree that Kingsolver isn't trying to break into the romance genre. (Do you seriously see her writing skill on that level, Jim?) I do give her credit, though, for the attempt to write literate sex. Had to stop and laugh a while over that, what the heck is literate sex-----a strategically placed thesaurus?

Oh, you know what I mean.

I still believe her abrupt introduction of Eddie was deliberate, an attempt to present the unexplainable of sexual chemistry. That thing that's difficult to defend/explain when, without even knowing someone, there is an instant sexual pull. Kingsolver doesn't quite pull it off (for me), but I admire her attempt. As I admire her well written sexual scenes, with reservations. I thought the scenes were beautifully written, even if I couldn't get past what was missing (YES, Jim, the fun and real-life stickers/mud/bugs,rocks,ouch! parts), the improbability of the Eddie character, and what might be just a personal preference---that less is more when highly sexually charged scenes are written. In books as well as movies, I like the not knowing what is going to happen, the build up, anticipation, will they, won't they. Then, when they do, it is the suggestion of details, not the details themselves that work for me.

I wonder how I'd feel about her sexual/sensual scenes if I believed in the 'rightness' of Deanna and Eddie. Differently, maybe.

BETTY GREGORY: I did not think Deanna and Eddie were "right" either. I do agree with you about the "less is more" in terms of sexual scenes. I feel that way even in novels where I do agree the characters belong together. I read a lot of romance novels and tend to prefer the ones with less detail of the sexual scenes. Does this mean I am not a true "romance reader"? Who knows.

Marjorie,

your coming in here just now was telepathic :

because I had been thinking of invoking your help just now, when the subject of BK and romance literature came up here again today, for the second time.

As I was wondering how best to approach you ... THERE was your post ! Thank you.



I too believe in "less is more"- always. It is a matter of taste, I think.

Admittedly, my knowledge of romance fiction is limited; but it is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that the romance genre uses understatement, cleverly hinted and implied clues - rather than explicit sexual scenes, to best effect.

Again, thank you

Traude

TRAUDE: I am no authority on the subject. I just know what I like. I like the understated best. I guess I think there are a couple of kinds of romance novels: the trashy ones that are very explicit and the ones where the love scenes are more subtle and there is more of a story involved. The second kind are the ones we try to select for discussion here.

 

My poetic contribution to coyote thoughts: 

                      The Coyote and the Mouse 

                 Stalking, 
                 Now listening, 
                 Quickly  rising forward 
                 Paws together downward thrusting; 
                 Gotcha.  

                                         -jwo 

    

Written at Yellowstone National Park several years ago.

There was no full moon that night so I can't do a Kingsolver bit on further adventures in the wild.

Traude- for a better presentation of ecology by Kingsolver read "High Tide in Tucson"

Before she became a romance novel writer.

Romance aside--- I'm beginning to feel that I have been involved in the scientific field for so long that I am interpretting sex in a scientific manner. The sensual, sexual scenes are only a parallel to what the birds, bees, animals, et al, perform- The virtual mating dance. Animals and plants join together , unite and reproduce. All thru this book I felt BK was masterminding this tale for us to understand that we are NO different than any othere breeders. We are one. Each plant needs another to live on as well as with. Are we any different? Albeit our powers of wisdom and choice.

I definitely agree with Alf in the last post. That is also how I viewed the sex between Deanna and Eddie. BK never once (I don't believe) mentioned anything about love and romance. I never saw it as anything but pure attraction. I still don't know who chose who, perhaps I feel it was mutual. Whether or not they were ideally suited for one another is purely an individual opinion. Certainly the chemistry was right!

This is my first post in this folder, thank you all for your opinions expressed above. That I found this place on the very day I finished reading Kingsolver's opus is due to Traude's excellent directions in Seniornet AOl's Books folder. It took awhile for me to really get immersed in the complexities of the stories and I couldn't see how BK was going to bring everything together. By the time I was about 3/4 through I was fond enough of the characters so that I was sorry to come to the end. By the way, Nannie was 75 years old, [see page 372].

Welcome, Jem!

We are delighted to welcome you here and so glad Traude's excellent directions worked! We hope you will make yourself at home and look around all our discussions, Traude will be so excited!

So glad to have you, please stay a long time.

ginny

WELCOME JEM. I echo GINNY's sentiment and am also glad you were able to follow TRAUDE's instructions to get here. Enjoy.

Welcome, Jem! We are so glad to see that Traude guided you in here!

There have been so many good posts here, I find them all quite interesting. I agree with Alf and BabsNh---that was a thoughtful piece there, Andy! Marjorie, we needed your point of view about BK becoming a romance writer, and Jim, I really have to admire your choice of esoteric poetry! It grabbed my heart!

Lorrie _____________________________________________________________________

I've been reading the book as I go along, because I like to go back and reread some passages, so imagine my surprise when I discovered that Garrett has a son somewhere! I promised myself that I would not read ahead and spoil the fun, but according to the chronological aspects of the story, Garrett and his wife Ellen must have been well into maturity when they had a son. Please, don't anyone tell me what is coming? I like a little suspense.

Lorrie

Lorrie- the poetry wasn't a choice- it was original with me.

Kingsolver overdoes her analogy of human sex with the various aspects of sexual attraction and fornication in nature.

She is really getting into border line porn when she has the sexual fantasy of having sex with a coyote type figure .

Is that what happens to women as they approach the menopause, heightened sexual awareness and fantasy?

Don't answer, I'm not the Linda Tripp type.

But she does have this dream- the sexual fantasy of mating a coyote type figure,

And if you look at Eddie carefully you can find some coyote qualities and features.

As all men are (and I use the term generically to include women) he is a predator.

At his best in Deanne's mind he is the ideal coyoye like predator- taking prey carefully either intentionally or by a grand natural scheme to preserve and enhance the prey species.

That is the way I read the Wild Turkey episode-

He is the male coyote bringing the kill home to the den where they share a ritual preparation and feast.

The only thing missing are pups- but later for that.

And we all know what feasts lead to- I could tell you a story about my wild boar hunt in Korea in 1945 , the resulting ritual feast and its effects on the villagers.

He selects a Tom to kill to spare the offspring and to further natural selction by killing a loser - a Tom who hasn't learned about men and guns- or even to eliminate those turkey genes that are getting too tame.

We have that problem here in Wisconsin as people more and more feed wild turkeys and in effect tame them and develop dependence on human supplied food. Not traits that lead to wild Turkey survival.

But at any rate he does it in his own version of coyote type wise wild behavior- only he thinks about it while the coyote is supplied with the proper instincts (kill only for food- etc.- except that it doesn't work that way in reality with lambs and kid goats)

I liked the Turkey preparation scenes- took me back to the farm.

As did the milking scene and the barn swallows flttining about their nest under the old Edsion type clear light bulb with the little curved tip at the top.

By the way both sexes fed the nestlings.

I'll take a shot at the question on heightened sexual awareness and fantasy, Jim.

As all women know (and I use the term generically to include men), sexual awareness and fantasy happen between the ears and is probably related to general happiness, a healthy sex life (whether coupled or alone), open communication (if in a couple), personal preference (on fantasy--ok if you do, ok if you don't)-----and is not related to physiological changes in the body, such as cessation of menses.

All morning I tried to get here but could not get past the following message (never before encountered) :

"The web crossing server is not currently accessible. It may have been moved or taken down for maintenance. Please try again later."

Here I am at last. But I have back-to-back appointments and no time to respond to all the interesting posts in detail.

But FIRST THINGS FIRST :

HI JEM, WELCOME, WELCOME INDEED ! -x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Jim, I like your Gotcha ! Thanks for sharing !

As for HIGH TIDE IN TUSCON : On the car radio one morning a few years ago I heard part of an interview with BK on Boston's NPR affiliate WBUR, on Christopher Lydon's excellent talk program THE CONNECTION.

It was part of the promotion for the book, and she does not like promotions, she intimated.

The voice intrigued me, almost as much as what she said. So instead of driving home, I drove to the bookstore and bought the book, right then and there. And read every word of every chapter.

Let me quote (out of context, of course) a favorite (heavily marked) passage (it's the third paragraph on page 250) for your perusal :

<< I didn't realize that it's EMOTION, not EVENT, that creates a dynamic response in the mind of a reader. The artist's job is to sink a taproot in the reader's brain that will grow downward and find a path into the reader's soul and experience, so that some new emotional inflorescence will grow out of it. >>

Lorrie, no no, I won't give away anything, just let me say I finished the book in the wee hours of the morning and am still basking in the afterglow --- It is not time yet to summarize and I will abide by my promise.

Back

crazy when some words/phrases are truncated after an editing job.

In the future I will simply ask for your general pardon for a belatedly discovered typo instead of editing and running the risk of losing something in the process.

Sorry.

Traude

OK, here goes. This is my first time posting on this board. I decided to try this message board when Traude mentioned that you were discussing Prodigal Summer, which I just finished. I read all of your comments and do not have too much to add. I agree with most of yoI was a little dismayed reading the sexual parts at the beginning of the book. I hoped that the author was not going the way of Jane Auel with her Neandrathal Series that turned into neanderthal romance after her first book. Now I agree with Alf that those scenes had a purpose. She was getting the point across that we are all a part of nature . Alf stated the purpose much better than I could.

I admit that I did skimover some of the flora and fauna parts but all in all, enjoyed the book. It gets more andmore interesting.

I noticed a few of you were from MN. I grew up in the north western part of MN but haven't lived there for quite a few years. I now live in NJ but am visiting a daughter in WI.

Darlynelcrum!

WELCOME, WELCOME, WE ARE VERY GLAD TO SEE YOU HERE, AND IT LOOKS AS THOUGH OUR GRACIOUS LEADER, TRAUDE, IS "mentioning" THIS DISCUSSION TO MANY PEOPLE, WHICH IS REALLY GREAT!

AS A FORMER MIDWESTERNER, YOU SHOULD FEEL RIGHT AT HOME WITH US MINNESOTANS AND WISCONSINITES, AND ISN'T THIS A WONDERFUL BOOK? HAVE YOU ALREADY FINISHED IT? I HAVEN'T BUT TRAUDE HAS PROMISED NOT TO GIVE ANYTHING AWAY.

WHICH PART OF wISCONSIN ARE YOU VISITING? WE MOVED TO THE TWIN CITIES FROM THERE.

LORRIE

Hello, Darlyne, and WELCOME!

I think you will enjoy us here, be sure to look over all our offerings here in the Books, all 59 separate discussions, and if you have any questions just ask, we'll all be glad to answer!

So glad to see you here, please plan to stay a long time.

ginny

I am near Bristol and Paddock Lake, WI--about 10 miles west of Kenosha and an hour from Chicago.

This is a great board and I am sure I will like it. I am not a fast reader anymore but I am an avid one.

Avid's all that counts! And you are among kindred souls here, and I'm astounded at how quickly you've mastered our boards!

ginny

Traude, that quote you posted by Kingsolver made quite an impression on me. I can see why you would rush out to buy the book once you's heard that interview.

I don't know about everybody else, but I am being highly entertained by Jim's posts. I really like your sense of humor, Jim!

Lorrie

Welcome Darlyne My name is Ginger on the boards and am so glad to have you join us here. We do enjoy a lot different Books.

I was born in International Falls, Minn. raise all over the US settled in Mich on the border of South Bend, Ind. about 100 miles south of Chicago.

Going to a meeting so will talk later.

Ginger

My word ! DARLYNE --- WELCOME, WELCOME !!! I cannot tell you how happy I am to see you here, I don't know which way to turn (as someone used to say), that is how pleased I am.

And I will now take a moment (out of strictly book talk) to tell everyone reading here that I have had a special cyber relationship with Darlyne on AOL SN for several years, and more than that : I had the still tangible pleasure of meeting her daughter, son-in-law and their 3 sons last summer; in the flesh, that is. That meeting with Darlyne's family would not have been possible, of course, except for our on-line book discussions ! Well, glory be !

And infinite thanks, for books, for each other, for mutual enrichment.

Traude

I got the book just in time to be home for two days with a sinus infection. So I read practically non-stop. Kingsolver always gets crticism about the "politics" underlying her books. But I am impressed with the depth of research she does for each of these bookshe has written--there was an amazing amount of information about the natural world woven in. And they are always well-written in my opinion.

The female characters are the srong characters and the ones who argue Kingsolver's environmental concerns, but it seemed to me that the male characters were given lots of dialogue where the opposite point of view was explained without being belittled. I have to think more about it, and reread parts of it. It seems important that it takes place in one hot rainy summer when the natural world is growing and reproducing at an even more rapid pace than usual--a lot happens in a few months.

I was more bothered by chapters switching back and forth between characters in Poisonwood Bible than I was in this book. Maybe I am getting used to it?

My first reaction to Deanna and Eddie-- At one point she comments that they could not walk down the street in Knoxville without getting stares. I think that BK has emphasized all of their differences because she was trying to show that selecting a mate in humans can be more like it is in nature than we usually think. But, in my opinion, only if you are isolated like they were. My second reaction was how is BK going to end this impossible affair? So I had to read to the end.

Jem: (our Gem now) Welcome aboard our wonderful book-mobile train.  We go all over the world , (check out geographic communities) sharing, contributing and discussing stories.  The Prodigal Summer   is a delightful example of the diversity of the group as we dispense our individual brand of opinions to be shared.  Truade had done you a grand service and we love her for introducing you to us.  I, too, am chomping at the bit to discuss the ending of this novel but I will await the rest , not so patiently.

darylyne:  Hello!  I, on the other hand, am about as far away from Minn. as you can get.  I am in SW Florida, suffering a drought as you all are suffering the snow. (They love me anyway.)  We are  so pleased that you joined in our discussion and hope that like jem you will stay with us forever as we get to know you better and you become more acquainted with us.   Do not be shy, just speak up and  "opine"
right along with us.

 Jim:  I love your posts and your take on these sex scenes.  Men are from Mars.  I disagree with your interpretaion but I am enamored with the concept.  You, my dear man, are a brave soul to feel free enough with this group of gals to speak your thoughts and for this I commend you.  stay with us, you are a bonus .

So far,  my only negative opinion is the entertwining of all of these lives . This  is   just a tad too unbelievable.  That must be the romance genre peeking thru.
 
 

There are two people who are new to me. A big hearty welcome to DARLYNE and MARJORIE ELAINE.

DARLYNE: I agree with you about Jean Auel. I was disappointed in all but her first book. I found that Prodigal Summer was different than a what I expect of a romance novel inspite of the sexual scenes.

I also read to the end. I haven't gone back to any particular sections. I learned a lot about a part of the country and a way of life that is unfamiliar to me.

Marjorie

I think the intertwining of all those people could happen in a small town. I think they were all from the same area except the hunter-Eddie.

HELLO AND WELCOME TO MARJORIE ELAINE !! Is it all right for us to call you Marge ? It is gratifying to have another new reader in our expanding group ! -x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-

To recap :

I did not set out with a specific chapter plan; instead we started with the first 100 pages (under our belt, as Lorrie said) on Feb 1. That leaves 344 pp, and we have until the end of the month.

Nor did I pose specific qestions ahead of time, knowing they would come to the fore "organically". And they have. So far, four are on the table and are meant as a stimulus.

However, I have pledged to Lorrie that those of us who have finished the book will not divulge any developments prematurely. And since I am guilty of that very sin in an earlier discussion of a different book, I am particularly anxious not to repeat my error.

Regarding the quote from Kingsolver's HIGH TIDE IN TUSCON (pg 250) in my earlier post, she DID "sink a taproot" into our brain with this book and did find a path - into our awareness for sure, didn't she ?

I warmly recommend HIGH TIDE IN TUSCON; its subtitle is ESSAYS FROM NOW TO NEVER and it is a collection of stories, most were published before, some in slightly different form. Taken together, the stories give a measure of the woman, a gifted writer.

Yes Marge, as you said, Kingsolver has been accused of being too "political" and too liberal and was actually told "to love it or leave it" because of her protests against the Gulf War, and leave she did - lived in Spain for a while with young daughter Camille.

We know from her previous books that she has a keen sense of observation, and in HIGH TIDE... we see that is also quite funny, quietly funny , not uproariously so; see POSTCARDS FROM THE IMAGINARY MOM, pg 158. THE MEMORY PLACE (pg 170) is about a trip back to Kentucky with little Camille- there is mention of the Luna moth, an orange coyote, and hints of what we find in PRODIGAL SUMMER, but no ecological lecture.

I will stop right here and see you in the morning.

P.S. Cathy, how is work on the quilt progressing ? Have you chosen he colors ?

Traude

I'm curious. Do most serious authors who attempt extended sexual scenes usually (always?) get clobbered with the romance genre accusation? Or authors who do it in, say, their 5th book? A change? When can someone with Kingsolver's good writing reputation write extended or explicit or controversial? sexual scenes?

My answer to that Barb, would be when they can accomplish it with a bit of subtlety. She is a skillful writer but the sex here is far from insidious.

from getting some Valentine's gifts for the grandchildren.

PRODIGAL SUMMER is rarely far from my mind these days; I am trying diligently to keep up with all your comments and will respond as fast and as fully as I know how.

"WONDERFUL BOOK MOBILE TRAIN" </>, Alf called it - and what an apt moniker that is ! Why thank you, Alf !

Now to Betty's relevant question which cries out for being explored :

1. The accusation seems to me to be somehow dismissive of the romance genre.

2. I don't know if or, in fact, WHETHER , or when, "serious" authors are accused of lapsing into the romance genre.

3. Is it more likely that the accusation be leveled at a woman author than a man ? [I think so.]

4. To my knowledge, neither Henry Miller nor D. Lawrence were ever accused of writing for the romance genre. And I had never read anything more sexually explicit than LADY CHATTERLEY's LOVER.

5. When does extended, explicit writing become "controversia" ?

6. There are clearly fine and not so fine lines to be drawn [and I am all for it]; there may be understandable irritation when women authors delve into sexual matters. Yes indeed. I will be glad to provide an example or.. three, if pressed. But

7. In my opinion this accusation does not apply to Kingsolver for PRODIGAL SUMMER.

Lastly, according to my understanding of "kinky", the term does NOT apply here either.

I know what Betty means. Kingsolver has written several books earlier in which sex was, in itself, a non-issue, and when she does insert it into a plot that clearly centered around sex in her particular story, she is immediately given a label. I don't really think that's quite fair, I believe Kingsolver was simply doing what a good author does: making her characters believeable. Far more comprehensive would be if someone said, Kingsolver, the Naturalist, or Kingsolver, the Botanist!

I still can't see the argument here. The sex in this book is procreation throughout the kingdom, all species. Humans are part of the whole, aren't they? Writers get accused of being too explicit all the time, but the people who accuse have read the material, right? With some material when sex is obviously promiscuous and written about souly to turn a profit, I can put it down in distaste, and it will turn my stomach. But when it is part of the larger story, and is not disrespectful of either sex, it is just a natural happening. There are some who would rather not hear or read about it, and I guess if it were about real people, I would not either. But this is fiction. Are you saying that the book would hold the same interest without the sex scenes? Perhaps. But if you are looking at the way the world works, then I think it was just showing that we humans have the same natural drives as any other living thing. It is religion, government, and laws that have made us think we need to tame ourselves. Necessary for an orderly world? Maybe.

I must add something. I am smiling, and have been everytime I drop in to read these posts, for the fact that the topic we have discussed the most about Prodigal Summer, is the sex and not the other issues the book raises! What does that say about us?

I lived in East Tennessee near the mountains that BK is writing about for about 25 years. I love those mountains. I still have a daughter in Knoxville. At one point we owned a sawmill and hired some men whose families, a generation or two back, had come down from those mountains to find work--because farming there does not provide much of a livelihood anymore. Nearly all of the farmers in that part of the country work in town now and own some acres so they can live in the country. Tobacco was still the "money" crop when I left in 1994 to move to Texas. This story rings true--BK knows the people and places she is writing about. There are lots of towns like Egg Fork and valleys like she describes.

It was very difficult (as a midwesterner) trying to understand what people were saying. BK uses the language differences more with Lusa's story thread. One phrase she uses is "I don't care to" in the book. My Texan husband was a plant manager and he asked one of the women in the plant to serve on a special committee. She said "I don't care to." So he said "It's OK if you don't want to. I understand, etc. etc." She said "No! I said I don't care to." This went on a while until he figured out that "I don't care to" means "I don't mind." or "I would be glad to." or some positive response. When you think about it, "I don't mind." doesn't make a lot of sense either. They told us that many of the people in the mountains were very isolated until the 1940s and had retained their own Scotch-Irish dialect. So, when you move somewhere new, you learn the local customs and language. For a few years I was in daily contact with sawmill workers and loggers. Then I moved to Knoxville and it was a university city. Deanna described how different it was--even though she had been only 2 or 3 hours away from her home. There would be a big contrast between the life she led as a professor's wife vs. her isolation on the mountain for 25 months until Eddie showed up.

Someone asked why Deanna had to have the body of a 25-year-old. If she lives in those mountains and hikes those trails every day (even running on them) the way Deanna does, she will have a young body. There was a woman in Maryville, TN that hiked the mountains several times a week and her 80th birthday celebration was her climb up Mt. LeConte in the Smokies (with media and TV cameras and her fans.) For all I know, she is still climbing Mt. LeConte every year. I see Deanna being like that if she continues that job. Those are steep trails in that part of the country--but beautiful. You have to be in good shape to see them! I wish I had not been limited to the easy or occasional moderate trail. (In the Smokies, they have easy, moderate, or strenuous designations so people have a clue.) Enough reminiscing. Incidentally, I made it up Mt. LeConte once. Marge

Lorrie, Babs, Marge,

I am in total agreement. As far as I can see, there really is no argument; I was merely trying to answer Betty's question, and that in turn followed Jim's comments.

There is much more to this story than sex, predators and pesticides; and the sex really is an integral part of that story, just as it in the lives of people wherever they happen to live. And what is described in PRODIGAL SUMMER is intense, true, but not "kinky", in my humble opinion.

Marge brought up language, an excellent point. BK lets us in on how people express themselves, uses speech patterns and regional peculiarities; showing that the same words can mean the opposite of their literal meaning; what and how much is said, what is left unsaid...

The author has a wonderful ear for nuances, and the dialogue is perfect. Let's savor it, why don't we.

Concerning the pronunciation of "coyote" [canis laterans]: my unabridged Random House dictionary gives 2 ways to pronounce it, one ignores the final "e", the other does NOT -- depending possibly on where in the country it is used.

If any of you can help out here, your help will be gratefully acknowledged. Sorry to be getting to the question a little late; it was not overlooked.

Traude

Marge, Mount LeConte ? WOW. I must look that up on my atlas.

All of a sudden I am reminded of A WALK IN THE WOODS by Bill Bryson.

One more thing, it occurred to me that the area from which BK hails is a special corner of the country. At least two other authors were born there, Harriet Arnow (THE DOLLMAKER), and Bobbie Ann Mason (FEATHER CROWNS).

Traude

Such really great posts here, it's hard to know where to begin. First of all, I'm smiling, too, BabsNH! What does all this talk about s-- say about us? haha

Marjorie, What a vivid description of the Adirondacks area with which you seem so familiar! The closest we ever came to that area was a three-day stay in Gatlinburg, Tennesee, but I reret to say we never walked any of the trails on the Smokey Mountains, beautiful as they were. Your thoughts on the people of that area were very pertinent, and as you said, apparently Kingsolver knows the area well.

Getting back to the book, I am surprised to find that I am overcoming my original contempt for the in-law relations of the widow Lusa, whom I had heretofore thought were ignorant and cruel, in some respects. But, like Lusa, I'm discovering that as the reader gets to know them a little better, he discovers they are all too human and have their frailties just like the rest of us. I liked Kingsolver's reaction to Jewel's children, and for that matter, the treatment she gives to the whole subject of Jewel and her many problems.

Lorrie

Traude: I knew this whole area, the way the author describes it, reminded me of something---you hit the nail on the head! I couldn't remember her name, but you just supplied it, thank you! It was the Dollmaker, Harriet Arnow! Thank you.

Well, I guess you are just a sexy crowd! That’s the only way to explain what Babs has pointed out about your proccupation with the sex scenes. HELLO! I’m JO! Not new, just an infrequent poster who was determined to join you on this one, and have been reading away, finding it hard to put the book down, even long enough to comment. It’s time to end that because I don’t want to miss any more of the fun. We only children have issues about being left out, so please let me in! The sex certainly seems to be a natural part of the story. Not intrusive, to me, and sometimes beautiful and touching, as in Lusa’s dream ‘way beyond the first 100 pages. I’ll say no more for now. I certainly have enjoyed the posts ( I’ve read them all!) as well as the book, which I will probably finish today or tomorrow. This is my third Kingsolver book (missed Poisonwood Bible -- it’s waiting for me when I finish this one) and I plan to read everything she writes. I never would have sought out all the beautiful material she delivers to us in this didactic work if it hadn’t been in a novel-package, and I would imagine that’s true of many addicted fiction readers. I think it’s a splendid gift that she’s given to us, and a display of her own gift as a teacher and a novelist – great combination!

Welcome to you Jo: We are happy to have you join up with us. hahah -- I LOL with your "only children do not liked to be left out." Is that true?

We discussed thePoisonwood Bible last year and I loved that book, as I am sure you will. Don't go away, stick around and have some fun reading with us.

Hello, Jo: It's so good to see your name here. I'm just now coming to the end of the book, and everybody has been so gracious not revealing what I hadn't read yet! I know you'll love joining in here, and you should feel right at home, because you're actually an old hand at this!

We've got some wonderful new posters coming in, some of them friends of our Leader here, and others who simply liked talking about the book.

Lorrie

I have been thinking about Chapter 2 describing Lusa and Cole's marriage. He went to Lexington in the first place to learn about integrated pest management and Lusa had been his instructor. He knew what she studied and how much she knew about pest management, she knew he was a farmer without as much education as she had. She knew she was changing her lifestyle drastically. Why had their marriage already turned into a fight everyday and her shouting Arabic curses at him? Why did she think she had to be a farmer's wife and not use her education to earn a living? She was very lonely. She was trying to fit into a family that she intimidated. Isn't it sad that she could not find the answers while they were married? Unfortunately the situation Lusa and Cole found themselves in with the same arguments following one another happens.

I assume BK is happily married since she is so complimentary to her husband in the last sentence of the acknowledgements. I hope one of her books will have a strong woman with a marriage that works.

The Smoky Mountains (and Mt. LeConte) are south of Knoxville and the mountains of this book are north of Knoxville--but there the same mountains--Appalachia and a beautiful part of the country. Two of my grandsons go to college in Johnson City, Tennessee which is about 45 miles from the Virginia state line. At least one of them has told me that he hopes he never has to live anywhere else, can stay in East Tennessee. It is the way many of the people there feel about it.

Yep, Alf, an only-child friend and I have decided that we panic at the notion of being left out. Maybe because we didn’t have to flex our “look at me “ muscles when we were children; we already had the limelight. MarjorieE., it is sad that Lusa and Cole seemed so disconnected before he was killed. Kingsolver’s plots make me think she is more comfortable developing her female protagonists than she is in dealing with her male characters. Lusa finds herself, her purpose and her opportunity to make the lives of others better after Cole is gone. Deanna becomes strong in isolation. In one of her other stories, Pigs in Heaven or Bean Trees (maybe that was the same main character in each?) the woman drives cross country alone and winds up adopting a little Native American girl. I don’t think BK is a strident feminist; I do think she understands the inner life of women and their way of dealing with life’s challenges. Because she isn’t as confident with the male experience, those characters seem relatively flat.

Quiltlady, Bee, Dianne, Bess bess, Jem, and Darlyne? Are you still with us? Or are you all traipsing after Bee into the nearest office supply store? Hahaha

Lorrie

What pleasure to be able to greet another new reader in our group :

WELCOME JO !

Traude

Thanks, Traude! You are doing a great job -- it's nice to be here. Do you want us to stick with the first 100 pages for a while?

Dear friends,

I have run afoul of this special html system that to me is, regrettably, still a book of several seals, even if fewer than the proverbial seven ! As you can see, my efforts to edit have come to naught, and I am sorry about that.

So here, at this very late hour, only the gist of what I tried to express :

Yes Jo, TPB (short for The Poisonwood Bible) should NOT me missed. PRODIGAL SUMMER is entirely different (from TPB and the earlier work) in subject matter, time frame, locale, and has baffled not a few devoted readers. Yet it demonstrates once again and very clearly the versatility of this gifted writer.

I believe that this exuberant, life-affirming novel could not have been written were it not for her remarriage, the birth of another daughter and the transparent happiness so clear in the book.

Marge, I am unable to reconstruct my answer to your comments on Chapter 2 and Lusa, I'll do so tomorrow.

Jo and everyone, it is my feeling that THIS book (more than many) requires an unstructured approach, and THAT is the reason for my not formulating "starter" questions and indicating (only) 100 pages to begin with.

By all means, please DO go ahead and read at your own pace as far ahead as you like, ALL of it, as some of us have, just don't give away conclusions of plot and such ...

Back in the morning, Traude

I am here and reading the posts, I just really have nothing to add. I finished the book some time ago and daughter has it so can't really refresh. I don't want to get ahead. The posts are all great.

Darlyne

As promised, I am back to take up Marge's comments about Lusa and Cole and their frequent fights.

They were indeed so very different by background, was it any wonder that exhausting verbal fights arose out of these vast differences ? Haven't we seen such in our own lives ?

Still, there is the intangible " je ne sais quoi" , the "chemistry" between people, which we have heard mentioned countless times and perhaps even experienced as well. And here comes BK and gives us the scientific term and a totally plausible explanation : pheromones. Well, now we know !! And who is to say that, in the case of Lusa and Cole, there could/would not have been a gradual coming-together of shared views, in time ? Were those differences really insurmountable ? (keep reading..)

Isn't there an analogy between the sometimes fatal attraction between people and the compulsive, frantic activity of moths burning themselves out in such a short time ?

Which brings me to an article that appeared in the Boston Globe on Feb 6 titled " OFF WITH THEIR HEADS ! BIOLOGISTS BATTLE NASTY RED FIRE ANTS" I will resist the temptation to describe the gruesome new strategy biologists are planning to slow (at least) the continuing march westward of these potentially lethal ants, and just say that I have developed a new respect for that science.

There is much more to say about Lusa and the changes she brings about in others through her very being, in the bief period of one short summer.

I think we have to FEEL as we read; reading alone won't quite get us where the author wants

Nobody has mentioned the article in Parade magazine on Sunday about coyotes. It supports the theory that the more coyotes are hunted, the faster they reproduce and move into new territory. Marge

There is a thread I couldn't quite get my hands on concerning Lusa's and Cole's supposed distance from each other. Remember Cole is a new thinker, compared to his community---he went into the city to learn even more. And, remember, Lusa always imagined herself one day escaping the city and living on a farm. So, when each is feeling so alone, we the readers with foresight can see they are not so alone.

There is a similar feeling about Deanna and Lusa's separate aloneness---each of them seeming to be a square peg, but we the readers (the universe) can see that they live just minutes from each other---and know that they have in common their concern for living things---so are not alone. Did anyone else have similar thoughts on a Kingsolver message/thread?

Marge,

PARADE comes with the Boston Globe too- it is still here, unread, , I admit, together with most of the Sunday paper. I am having a tough time managing MY time ... mea culpa. I will comment on the PARADE article soonest.

Betty, you are absolutely correct on Lusa, and later events in the book confirm it. "Separate aloneness" is very well put ! And true for both women. It is likely that BK portrayed them in this way deliberately. The author, we understand, is a bit of a loner herself and knows whereof she speaks : the loneliness of those who don't quite conform to whatever the norm is ...

More later

Traude

I have the feeling that those two, Lusa and Deanna will come together before the book is done.

Hi, y'all and welcome new posters. I have been busy the last week getting ready for and then attending the World of Wheels Car Show in St Paul. I had a booth there, and I was selling die cast collectibles of race cars. That is my very small home business that keeps my much busier than I originally thought it would.

Anyway, I finished Prodigal this past week. I've been keeping up with all of your posts, and there's not much I can add except that my original rather harsh opinion has softened somewhat. I must say that I'm not used to so much analysis of what I am reading, and I generally am not as detail oriented as many of you seem to be. However, after reading many of your postings, I began to read with an eye toward the details (more than I usually would, anyway). This is probably my least favorite of the Kingsolver books that I have read, and I probably would not have finished it if I hadn't been in the group. I won't comment any more now, as others are still reading, however, I can say that the book improved for me as I continued to read, but I still found some aspects of it very annoying.

More later.

Cathy

PS I see that the next book is The House of Sand and Fog. Looking forward to that.

Traude, awhile back you asked if I'd started on the quilt yet. I'm waiting for John Flynn's book to arrive so that I know how much of each fabric I will need. This guy has developed a quick method of cutting and pieceing the double wedding ring pattern that is supposed to be fool proof! Ha! We'll see!!

That's it for now.

The article in PARADE magazine, a supplement to some Sunday papers throughout the nation, is titled Please Don't Feed The Animals and was written by Earl Swift.

Some quotes :

<< In Arizona, coyotes roam suburban neighborhoods and carry off pets. In California, bears run amok in backyards. Nationwide, cars and critters collide a millon times a year. And we've got no one to blame but ourselves. (emphasis mine) >>

<< ... In many states, more deer and coyotes live in the suburbs than in the sticks. And why not ? Tasty shrubs and easy-open trash cans make dinner a snap. >>

The author gives several examples of unplanned violent encounters between man and beast : reported from Colorado Springs, Colo. where, in 1998, a man seeking a pay phone was mauled by a 6-foot, 300 pound black bear (apparently protecting its cubs), bitten and clawed before he could escape; and from Forestdale, Mass (which is on Cape Cod), where in July of 1998, a coyote attacked a 3-year-old boy playing in the backyard and latched on to the child so fiercely that the mother had to pry the animal off him. The boy survived. The coyote was killed.

The incident was covered exhaustively by the media and I remember it well. I am familiar with the area because nearby is a boarding kennel where I take my dog when I have to travel, and I must add here that the incident happened in an area just being developed.

With specific reference to the coyote, the author has this to say, and I quote

<< Most vexing of all might be the coyote, which has colonized every one of the lower 48 states. Adaptable and smart, it is among the most opportunistic of beasts, feeding on everything from pet cats to watermelons. "Coyotes actually thrive in populated areas," says Massachusetts wildlife biologist Susan Langlois. "Whatever you give them, they basically roll with the punches and figure out how to make it work for them."

"They have remarkable problem-solving abilities," agrees Randy Babb of Arizona's Department of Game and Fish. "They run up to a road. They stop. They look both ways. They wait for the traffic to pass before crossing." And built into their genetic code is a nasty little safeguard : The faster they're killed, the faster they breed. "There are few animals that will be left when we're all gone," Babb says. "Scorpions and coyotes aren't go

...going anywhere."

Traude

Sorry the greetings are late- I really had no chance to post them sooner.

And I promise to be back.

Traud

I've been away for a few days and am wondering where in the read everyone is. I don't want to post my comments before I should. Are we to the part yet when eddie believes that Deanna is catching the flu?? When Garnett believes that the birds and the oak trees have minds like Nannie? I loved that, as he approaches Nannie and she begins to explain the characteristics of herbovores.

Alf, I'm at the point where Deanna is facing the fact that she must be pregnant, and I have just finished reading the letter she sent to Nannie Rawley. As I come to the finale, I can see a change in the tempo. From the mood of languid summer lassitude, the pace of the story seems to be picking up, and all these loose ends appear to be getting into the position of being tied up.

I have a feeling that there are many surprises ahead, but whatever happens, I will always remember the particular feeling about the outside world, and the life within it, that Kingsolver has made me aware of through this book.

Lorrie

Lorrie:I, too, felt the change of pace towards the finale but not in an enjoyable sense. Most times when I read a good book I linger because I do not want my characters to go away. The author still pulls you in allof the way through. I did not feel this at the end of Prod. Summer.

Can we assume all are finished with the book? Also (don't anyone faint), could you give us a mid-book question or two, Traude, or some kind of where-we-are guidance?

The end-of-book pace change was, for me, somehow associated with change of seasons. The steamy (rainy) summer has ended, another season of life begins. Structurally, the resolutions of mysteries, problems, questions, etc., wasn't that smoothly done, I'll agree, but I have a difficult time paying attention to that when I'm enjoying each sentence.

I've decided I'd be a lousy book reviewer. Once someone's words and sentences, maybe even rhythm, speak to me, I'm lost. I forgive almost anything.

Are there rules about the "Title" we fill in for these postings? I like to have a little fun with them.

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY, ALL YOU READING NUTS!!!!!

Lorrie and Alf: I, too, felt the pace quicken considerably in the last few chapters. Lorrie, I am interested in your comments about that. Did you feel something was missing as you were finishing the book?

I have felt that my views on this book are at odds with my fellow posters, my responses being more negative. I decided to check out the reviews by customers on the Amazon.com site and found something very interesting. Either, the reviews are glowing or they have almost exactly the same complaints that I do. Seems there's no middle ground with this book. That is a good thing! At least I feel "less alone" in my opinions. Hey, maybe it's the flu talking! Ha Ha!!!

Cathy - Sick & Tired of the Cold in Minnesota

I didn't get that sense Betty. I had the feeling BK was rushing thru , merely to finish it!!

Hey, Kathy, it's good to hear from you! As a relatively close neighbor, I know what you mean by "sick and tired of Minnesota winter!"

Like Alf, I felt that Kingsolver was sort of rushing it toward the end. It's not that there's something missing, per se, but to me it seems that we stroll leisurely, (at a gnat's pace, even) all through the first part and now when we near the end, it's like we're being catapulted down these last few chapters, where everything will be nicely all-ends-tied-up! Perhaps it's just me, anyone else feel like this?

Lorrie

I had the sense that once BK had made her point, there was no place for the narrative to go. So, the book ended. It seemed as though the story and the characters were just a vehicle for her soapbox. I expected more magic. Instead, I felt as though I got essays and lectures about the environment, etc. etc. Her discriptions of the forests, the animals, the butterflies, plantlife were lush and beautiful. There was a bit of magic there. The threads that connect all these living things were delicately drawn. You could feel the spirituality that exists in nature. But, with the humans, particularly the women, I felt that they were just megaphones for her opinions, and rather annoying single-minded ones at that. To me the only one that seemed real at all was Lusa.

I liked the characters, but I felt that they should have had more of a chance to development into who they really were. I wanted to know more about them, and I felt that what I got was more about BK.

Whew!! I think a couple of aspirins, a shot of brandy, a nice warm quilt in front of the fireplace, and I just might feel a little better. Oh, no, don't tell me I just ran out of Kleenex!!

Cathy (or just call me Rudolph)

I finished the book some time ago and I don't remember what you are all talking about about the change of pace. However, I have seen that in many books I have read. What I do remember about the ending of this book is that I was left dissatisfied. I am not sure quite why and I didn't take the time when I was reading to decide how I would have liked things to be resolved differently.

Rudolph (quiltlady Cathy), my overview of the posts from the beginning is that we've had much more negative things to say than positive. Your comments fit right in!!

Lusa is for me, too, the most developed character---or, is it the most believable. Hmmm, maybe the most believable. I had such a good time reading of Nannie, though. Wish BK had done more with her. I want MORE authors to write of 75 year old women....cool, independent-thinking, smart, human (not perfect) women. I want a whole book about Nannie.

BETTY: I would also like a book about Nannie. Good idea.

Yes, Betty, I would like more about Nannie too. Nannie and Garnett were a scream, and it's a shame we learned so little about them.

Cathy

Quiltlady,

I think it is typical of B.K'readers to love her books or hate them.

Among other things I enjoyed the humor of Garnett's relationship with his neighbor. It was predictable what would happen, especially when she presented him with the pie. The snapping turtle incident was especialy funny I thought.

Betty, your post #185 tells me all about Nannie that I admire, and I, too, would like to hear more about this couple. Kathy, Marjorie, and Darlyne, remember how the author wrote of when Garrett put on a clean shirt when Ellen was alive: "On cool winter mornings when he went to school she'd hand him a shirt to put on that felt as warm as a wife's embrace, and he'd carry that little extra measure of affection on his shoulders all day. No matter what affronts of youthful insolence he had to face in his day, he'd still have that: he was a man taken care of by a womsn."

Great writing! There is a great deal of humor in the story of Garrett and Nannie. I especially liked his preparation for an encounter with Nannie's scarecrow.

Lorrie

Traude, are we going too fast here? Want us to back-track a little?

Quilt lady, Cathy.  that's a good oneHow would you like Eddie to join you in front of the fireplace?  LOL.

OK, Eddie's departing words were that he had met his match.  Did he now?

True, BK does make her point as Lusa understands that there is no cure for the "predicament" known as farming.  Lusa now plans her next move- a grass farm, with Little ricky as a farm hand.  This is all to choppy for me , as if BK had 3 seperate novels started and swept them altogether as one during the Prodigal Summer  ?   Was it truly a prodigal summer, folks, wasteful, extravagant and lavish?    where was the prodigal part?   Spendthrift?  dissipator?  Can you help me to  relate this title to the story ?

Lorrie,

there is no need to back up. As I said, I finished the book about a week ago but did not want to jump too far ahead.

Lorrie, Alf, Cathy, Betty, Marjorie, Darlyne (hope I have not overlooked anyone), I admire and can only agree with your insights. As Darlyne has said, there is indeed a pronounced polarity in what people "think" about BK. But more seem to love her. This book is the possible exception.

It seems to me each book requires a slightly different approach- in fact, its very own special treatment. In this case we have already looked at and discussed the environmental/ecological concerns and the "soapbox", which is very much in evidence. We have touched on language, speech patterns, regional differences; we have visited the emotional terrain BK has laid out before us, and taken a liking to the characters (well, more or less).

To some extent we have gotten into the plot, such as it is presented to us, and are inclined to think - from what I glean - that the plot was secondary; the message came first. (Remember Marshal McLuhan and his book, I think it was called THE MESSAGE IS THE MASSAGE or some such.)

On several occasions BK delivers mini lessons on the fragility and vulnerability of our environment and, through her characters, tries to strike a balance between the economic interests of small farmers and the needs of our planet (tobacco farming, herbicides and pesticides vs. natural means, etc.) Her politics are transparent, but nowhere is there open antagonism or violent confrontation between the "factions", if the term is permissible. That is very much to her credit, in my opinion.

As for the change in narrative pace : once the concerns are laid out and the characters' different reactions described at a leisurely pace, things suddenly hurtle toward an ending. No attempt is made to arrive at a possible "solution"; indeed, there really can be no compromise. The reader is left to ponder all of this, not totally satisfied that suddenly everything is over.

But Kingsolver writes with compassion and she writes well, as Betty has said. Her descriptions are vivid : the constant hum of the forest, the ongoing activities ... "Solitude is only a human presumption ..." she tells us early on.

The battle lines are drawn early : Garnett says/thinks "... Success without chemicals is impossible." pg 87. Deanna aims at nothing less than a reordering of the species --- ultimately, of course, she leaves the mountain ...

There are short poignant phrases : "... a mystery caught in the hand could lose its grace. " And again Garnett thinking : "... merely a tributary to the lake of grief through which an old man must swim at the end of his days."

or Deanna "watching rain pour over the front eave in long silver strings ..." Now THAT is wonderful writing.

As I said before, Garnett is sympathetically drawn. How could the reader not be drawn to him, with his Friday afternoon seafood rituals at the diner, his diminishing eyesight (mistaking a scarecrow for an intruder), his stubborn belief in the possibility of restoring the mighty chestnut tree to the forests of America.

The reader would have liked perhaps to have Garnett's son come out of the shadows, at least briefly. And clearly the reader would have loved more details about plucky, realistic, resourceful Nannie. A few more sentences about her relationship with Deanna's father would have been welcome for the reader's understanding, I believe.

And Eddie, the human predator --- I would have liked to know under what circumstances he took his leave. Did he just wander off after reading Deanna's thesis in defense of the coyotes ?

The pregnancy is somewhat of a miracle (she is 47 years old), and not totally logical (since condoms were mentioned at least three times...)

But it is too early for a summing up.

Cathy, please feel free to add your own special touches with monikers, we have no "rules" about them as far as I know. We may be very thorough in our discussions and go over the textual territory with great care, and often more than once, but fussy we are not nor are we all "bloody" seriousness, as the English would say. Heaven forbid ! We must have levity ! If I may I say, personally I have always found p

I was tempted to edit and promptly lost some words. So here they are :

I have found that people who have no sense of humor are a bit dull, and not always easy to get along with.

It is too early to sum up,and I would invite you to bring out whatever you may want to say. And Betty, I really have no leading questions, save the one with which we began and to which we will return at the end of our discussion.

Now, if I may, a word about the end : It is my understanding that here in our SN Books and Literature arena a book is discussed usually for a month, but there are no absolutes.

Some may require more time, some possibly less. It depends. I remember for example that the group that discussed MATING by Norman Rush had a very hard time letting go, and that the discussion period was extended. Even then questions remained.

We will know when we are done here. Meanwhile, I thank you all.

Traude

Alf, you got me thinking about "prodigal". Almost any definition works here. "Extremely generous, lavish", "extremely abundant, profuse". Certainly the forest that summer was all of those. Fertile comes to mind: "producing abundantly, fruitful, prolific", "able to produce young, seeds, fruit, pollen, spores, etc." Lusa's goats, her garden with more fruit and vegetables than she could can and freeze, the honeysuckle that grew to swallow up the shed by the end of summer. The apples in Nannie's orchard, the weeds that Garnett thought were taking over, the coyotes, moths, everything was "producing abundantly" that summer. The other definition of "prodigal",: "exceedingly or recklessly wasteful", is more difficult to decipher. Did Deanna feel "recklessly wasteful" because Eddie began to occupy her mind and her time more and more, even to the point where she fell behind in her field notes? She certainly seemed to abandon all consideration for consequences when she and Eddie were having sex. Was that reckless? How about the spraying to kill weeds and bugs? Was this exceedidngly or recklessly wasteful? Did the spraying kill more than it was meant to kill?

How about the story of the prodigal son. He went away and squandered his inheritance, came home, and was welcomed back by his forgiving father. How does this apply here? Lusa found new understanding of her in-laws. Deanna was coming back to civilization. Garnett would be reunited with his grandchildren. What had they squandered, if anything, while they were "out of touch"?

My heads plugged up, but I can still think - sort of.

Cathy or Rudolph, whatever.

Cathy,

here is hoping that you feel better very soon ! Good thoughts are being sent your way.

"Prodigal", bravo to all the definitions you gave; and prodigious might be added too= anything present in lavish abundance. "In all her life Lusa had never seen such an oversexed, muggy summer. Just breathing was a torrid proposition." pg 223.

All the characters are affected by the intensity of that steamy, extraordinarily fecund summer and respond to it with heightened awareness; they awaken to a new reality and are transformed by summer's end. I think that the individual transformation is the link, the commonality between the three different strands of the plot, even though those strands are not as seamlessly interwoven as one might have hoped.

Lusa is the most fully realized female character, as has already been pointed out. But even there BK strains a little, I think, to create the ethnic background into which the goats would be made to fit. The reclusive Deanna who really doesn't like people, we are told, and who loses her head and her composure over Eddie Bondo, is the least convincing, in my opinion. The two are an improbable match, that has been said here before and is clear from the beginning-- not only because of their opposing views on hunting coyotes or the age difference, but especially because of his immaturity. I see him as boyish and utterly charming to women until his ripe old age.

From the very last chapter of HIGH TIDE IN TUSCON, titled Reprise , it is clear that BK and her second husband are of one mind. She is quite effusive in her praise of him, and readers must be happy for both of them. Vita brevis, life is short, and love, if found, is precious indeed.

Traude

Traude, in your posting about the various relationships written about in this book, you mentioned the obvious love between Lusa and her dead husband, and I wanted to point out a very good example of that in the very beginning when Cole, even though honeysuckle was abhorrent to him, would cut off a segment to bring to Lusa, who loved the scent of it. I thought that was very touching, as was when Garrett gave Nannie the precious roof tiles!

Lorrie

Yes Lorrie, so very much can be conveyed by deceptively "small" things and explain a relationship to an onlooker, or to a reader.

What delights and gratifies in this book are precisely those wordless human touches. How little it takes, how easy it can be to reach out to others and attempt an understanding, what rewards are possible !

Correction : The title of Marshall McLuhan's book is THE MEDIUM IS THE MASSAGE (that's right, massage. Medium ---> message---> massage). My apology.

Traude

Ok, you guys, I've waited as long as I can to mention again the green brocade chairs. Kingsolver gives us two characters who feel alone in their concern for the natural world---Deanna and Lusa. We the readers see how connected they are in spirit, but the two of them have yet to meet. Did anyone else notice that Deanna's old green brocade chair that sits on her cabin's porch is a match to the old green brocade chair in Lusa's bedroom? The one she sits in to look out the window?

One of Cole's sisters explains that that chair was one of a pair, but that the mother threw it out after it was stained---set it out by the road. Then someone picked it up and it eventually wound up at Deanna's cabin.

When I realized that the green chairs were "connected," much as we see the interests of Lusa and Deanna, it made me think of the movie, Six Degrees of Separation, that we are all somehow connected. That leads me to think that one of Kingsolver's more subtle themes is that any aloneness we might feel is of our own making, that our natural state is one of connectedness---we to each other and to all other living things.

BETTY: When the sister mentioned that one chair was thrown out, I recoginized that it was the one Deanna had. I was not as astute as you are though because my thinking didn't go any farther into a connection between the two women.

Betty, wonderful ! WOW !

Of course THAT IS the "physical" connection between the women (in addition to the fact that both are scientists in the same field). You had mentioned the "separate aloneness" before - it is all coming together !

I am practically sure everyone has finished the book by now, or will this weekend. So I think it is fine to give whatever thoughts/reactions etc. come to mind.

Cathy is on the mend, I hope.

Traude

Betty, the green chair connection made me believe that we were going to see an actual meeting of these characters. I guess Kingsolver didn't feel it was necessary to bring them all together to make the point about human (and non-human)connectedness in all of creation. I also expected or wanted to see what would actually occur when Jewel died and Lusa took the children, but, again, I suppose the author didn't feel her purposes were served by that symmetrical and tangible resolution. It was important to her to have her characters survive and continue their proper roles in the natural world. I liked this, even though part of me wanted a more "finished" conclusion. She does seem to have provided us with one in the characters of Garnett and Nannie.
What do you make of the last chapter? Is it too soon to ask? Does Kingsolver want us to assume the details of the next phase of the characters'lives after the ending?

I had the feeling that the characters would all connect. I believe Lusa heard about Deanna, it was mentioned once. They both knew Nannie.(Nannie called on Lusa after Cole died). As I mentioned before, in small towns or sparcely populated areas people get to know each other, or at least of each other. I thought BK summed up them all and led us to assume their future. Maybe another book could be written about them.

I recognized the green chairs as being "the pair", but I didn't look for anything beyond that. In retrospect, BK's intention was for her readers to find the clues and decipher the message. Betty, you did just that and said it most beautifully!!

I suspect that if we believe in the message of connectedness, the book did come to it's most natural conclusion. These characters will be drawn together in time. I think we'd all just like to be there when it happens.

Cathy

Hello everyone,

yes, the last chapter definitely awaits/invites comments.

And we do have participating readers who have not yet posted . One of them sent me an e-mail today and gave me permission to quote it here :

<< Hi Traude, I have thoroughly enjoyed the discusison of Prodigal Summer. You are doing a wonderful job of guiding/leading.

I don't think anyone has mentioned yet that Jewel's no-good, absent husband is Garnett's un-talked-about son ...

I loved this book, but, then, I have traasured everything Barbara Kingsolver has written. She did pretty much go over the top in this one, but I was happy anyway. Her feelings that everything is connected, and that we are all dependent on each other in ways we can't even imagine, fits in perfectly with my own personal philosophy. She treated everyone in her book with respect, which is another thing I appreciate about her writing.

And that's whay I have to say this morning ! ... >>

Just sharing, gratefully,

Traude

You will forgive me for my typos, I hope. My editing has not always had the intended result.

And also, I forgot : So glad Cathy is better !

It's vacation week here and several lucky friends of mine left last Friday for a week in warmer climes.

Yet, surely I am not the lone "holdout" here. But I will bow to vox populi ; if you think there is nothing further to say about PRODIGAL SUMMER, just give the word and we can summarize and end the discussion.

T

I'll just say one thing, I have been discussing this book with readers in another Bookclub for about the same amount of time as here, and their complaints about the book echoed most of what we heard here, while others just love everything BK writes. Seems most everyone wanted to have a neat tied up ending. Personally, I like books like this one sometimes, gives a person a chance to imagine the ending he or she would like. Thank you all for the fun of this discussion. It was my first, and I enjoyed it. Can't wait to read the opinions on "House of Sand and Fog'!

Oh babs We are delighted that you joined us and it is fun to know that our thoughts are in parallell to the thoughts of other readers. Thanks for your comments and please come back and join us . Sarah, too, is a fabulous discussion leader and I am sure as women there will be a great deal of differences to kick around.

Why thank you, ALF, for your kind words. I just returned from vacation and must confess I LOST this book. Where, I know not. It's strange and frustrating to lose a book mid-read. It has made it hard to keep up with the discussion, but I'm working on getting another copy (including putting a note in SN's Book Exchange - now up to almost 1000 books exchanged!! The acquirer merely pays postage to have the book shipped. Pretty cool!)

Sarah, I have it and would be happy to send it to you.

I am about three quarters of the way through this book and am fascinated with the story. From the postings I have been reading, I am beginning to realize that their is no 'tidy' ending (as in life itself) and will be putting in my two cents when I finish with the book. I love BK-I do not always 'get' what she is telling us until much later, but she does make me think and marvel at her perceptions. I did not realize that Jewels 'no good' husband was Garnett's son-should have-I knew Jewel's name was Walker. It really is a small world and so inter-connected. BK does a great job with this. This is my very first on-line book club and I am really enthused-have been looking for one for almost a year.

Wilan, well I will tell you truthfully, you have found the BEST one there is, and we are delighted to see you here, how DID you find us?

Love your comments and will be looking forward to more, WELCOME!!!!!

ginny

BabsNH, I am delighted to find you will be joining the next session of the Book Club Online on March 1, which will read the House of Sand and Fog, am looking forward to it!

ginny

Ginny, Thanks for welcome. I know this must be a great club. I have been browsing the net for a long time and just found this by luck. I felt right at home immediately. I just ordered the House of Sand and Fog from my library. I can do it on-line-a real convenience, but I still like to browse the library, itself (and the price is right)! I do not think I will get the book on time. I am 34th on the list! I did order it on tape (unabridged) and I am only sixth on the list-I may be able to get in on the discussions when they start. I will probably still be absorbing Prodigal Summer by then, anyhow. I think I am going to reread it. If not right away, definitely later

Wilan: We are delighted to have you join us. Ginny's right,