My first impressions....

It seems to me that calling him "Professor" or "Doctor" is respect for this [to him] hallowed position he holds at the college/university. It is my experience that in some parts of academia yet today, these "titles" are sacred and woe unto anyone who forgets it and is too familiar. Sons-in-law would not want to risk disapproval from either mother or father-in-law, I'd think.

I can only guess how it might have been in 1925 when there were perhaps far fewer with these titles about. The use of the last name only did not surprise me. It seems as a child I recall men referring to others by their last name, rather than the first. Things were just more formal then, it seems to me, even in the 1950s when I was growing up--let alone in the mid 1920s.

Yes, I do like Dr. St. Peter. He seems a bit of the stereotypical professor to me--or maybe any working man of that time--he's dedicated to his work and enjoys it, yet he also has set aside his family time and seems to love his wife and his two daughters.

jane

Goodness, where to start with that plethora of questions!! LOL I like this one, and it's where I decide to start.

Do you feel sympathetic to him?

I am immensely sympathetic to the Professor. No one in his family understands him, or cares to realize what he needs.

Why do I say this? Consider these items:

When we first meet his wife, she says to him such "loving" things as

"Surely you'll admit you like having your own bath?"

"And it's much more dignified at your age, to have a room of your own." "You are too severe with Scott and Louie."

"Oh, Godfrey, how can you be such a poor judge of your own behavior?"

Greeted with this sort of judgment and criticism, I think I'd be up in the attic too.

Further, there are hints that Lillian has nagged him about his time at the lake and on the tennis court. And there are hints that his summers with Outland were what really fed his soul. Now wonder!

His daughter and son in law have no idea what naming their new home Outland does to Godfrey. And certainly, no one understands his need for solitude, for a place of his own- he doesn't want the new house- he can't let go of the old. Don't they see/ get this? Oh yes, I am very much on the Professor's side so far.

Also, along this line, I found it very telling that we first are made to examine his relationship with a non-family member- Augusta, the sewing lady. She, at least, seems to respect his desires, understands him, and converses with him without judgment!!

2. What one thing stood out for you the most in these first 6 chapters?

I am bowled over by how much is "said" without being said, directly. There are layers of meaning everywhere.

In addition, I am shocked and frightened by what I see as an ominous example of (possible) foreshadowing on page 17:

"If the stove were turned down, and the window left open little way, a sudden gust of wind would blow the wretched thing out altogether, and a deeply absorbed man might be asphyxiated before he knew it."

Oh no!!!

What stood out for me....p. 49 in my Large Print book...

"...he was reflecting that people who are intensely in love when they marry, and who go on being in love, always meet with something which suddenly or gradually makes a difference...in their own case it had been, curiously enough, his pupil, Tom Outland."

jane

The character of Professor St Peter is said to be autobiographical for Cather. That said, just came upon this in my reading of Cather's bio:

"A strong preference for remaining single, already apparent during Cather's university years, became a conscious decision in her prime, marriageable time directly following her graduation. Her writing of that period -- even her transitory reviews -- speaks much of art and its stringent demands upon the individual who cares passionately; and her decision to be a writer merely strengthened with time. Marriage and a career in her thinking were incompatible. The dire consequences of acting as if they were otherwise are portrayed throughout her fiction, in which marriages for artists exist but are neither satisfying nor successful."*

WILLA CATHER, by Philip Gerber, p. 38.

To me, he is a man out of place and time. He is a "Professor" in a rinky-dink college with little or no intellectual stimulation, a man who only fully lives in his mind. Out of the thousands of students he has had only one who truly sparkled and this one arroused his wife's jealousy. He is constantly being judged but is not himself judgemental. All his passions are solitary ones. But his is not a tragic figure, merely misplaced.

I'm still rubbing the sleep out of my eyes, after dreaming all night about all the detail in the first chapters. Ginny must be mistaken when she says that 'the author keeps us at a distance from him (the Professor)'. We know so much about him after six chapters. He seems a well-rounded individual. A scholar, a gardener, a sportsman, a thougtful man, concerned even by what most effectively takes away the sins of the world.

But first things first. Was it expecting too much to hope for a bath ensuite here in the hold of our houseboat? Perhaps even a painted tub such as kept the Professor from his bed. He's promised a bath of his own in the new house...as well as a bedroom of his own. Husband and wife have obviously drifted apart. And the children were more often adored as frocks on the dress forms, than in reality.

I'm still in a flap over the missing bath. Mad enough to see the irony in Lillian's claim that baths are St. Peter's country's contribution to civilization. Nonsense. Everyone knows the Romans got there first. Still, it seems civilization might just be another theme to look for in the book.

But closer to home, it may be as jane suggests. It may be that the Professor's wife has good reason to be jealous ofTom Outland.

I guess I'm the defense attorney for the Professor since I am one. Heh. As for the use of last name, jane remembers what I do. In Chicago, men frequently referred to each other by last name only.

I can see already this will be a scattered post since I have a number of unconnected things to say. My father was a professor at the University of Chicago while I was growing up. It was the custom there for all faculty members to be addressed (formally, by students) as Mr. So Dad was Mr. Deems. It was some sort of move on the part of the U of C toward anti-snobbery. Everyone was Mr. (or Miss or Mrs, very few of those) Last Name. Everyone was thus equal, at least title-wise. When my father complained to my mother about contentious faculty meetings, there were lots of last names punctuating the account.

One more unconnected thing. I always make note of the beginning of things. So the very first sentence leapt out at me because it sounds much more like the end of things and not the beginning:

The moving was over and done.

OK, here we are in the house just moved out of, with the professor who seems to be attached to despite its narrow porch, slanting floor, and sagging steps.

And then there's the time. September points in two directions. September is the beginning of Fall which leads into Winter (a fearsome thing in the midwest) but it is also the Beginning of things for a professor, the Fall semester. The long summer is over and soon there will be students.

And then there's the professor's body. He likes wearing as few clothes as possible, and his body is "built upon extremely good bones, with the slender hips and springy shoulders of a tireless swimmer."

And then there's the walled-in garden, the "comfort of his life," which he started to make soon after the birth of his first daughter, Rosie.

Jonathan--loved your observation that the daughters were more of a joy to him when he was accompanied by their little girl frocks on the dress forms. Isn't it funny how he insists that Augusta not take those forms from the study/sewing room they have shared at the top of the house. He calls them "my women."

That room at the top of the house where the professor works fascinates me. He has, we are told, a "show study" downstairs complete with a desk and books, but it is here in this attic room that he works. The narrator tells us plainly, "Fairly considered, the sewing-room was the most inconvenient study a man could possibly have, but it was the one place in the house where he could get isolation, insulation from the engaging drama of domestic life."

It seems clear to me that this is not an especially happy marriage. Perhaps it once was, but no longer.

One final observation--the professor is a good teacher, devoted to his students.

"St. Peter had managed for years to live two lives, both of them very intense. He would willingly have cut down on his university work, would willingly have given his students chaff and sawdust--many instructors had nothing else to give them and got on very well--but his misfortune was that he loved youth--he was weak to it, it kindled him. If there was one eager eye, one doubting, critical mind, one lively curiosity in a whole lecture-room full of commonplace boys and girls, he was its servant."

That first sentence is revealing--the professor had managed for years to live two lives--makes me wonder what other double lives he may have led.

And everything I've commented on is in Chapter 1.

~Maryal

I keep thinking the Professor spends a good deal of time pushing away the family that he has. But then he mentions how he was in such a rush to marry.. He also seems to be jealous of her attentions to her son in laws. Everyone seems to want to please him, but I suspect the only pleasure he had was Tom.. I also am intrigued by this: "And thats what makes men happy, believing in the mystery and importance of their own little individual lives".This is ego rampant.. but then I suspect the professor has quite a healthy ego for what he has written.

Look at Ginny, folks! In her non-DL robe, she certainly is opinionated. Just one of us, after all.

(Ginny--Edwin Arlington Robinson's poem "Richard Cory" is the one where he puts a bullet through his head at the end--Richard, that is.)

Hey, hold on a minute. The professor and the seamstress share the room. They work at different hours for the most part. She works during the day and he holes up there in the late afternoon and evening, smoking and getting all her fabrics full of smoke. Augusta hates smoke. But mostly they are not there at the same time. So when she's there, she has to deal with his left-over smoke (there's only one window and a not very reliable old stove for heating) and when he comes in, he gets to see whatever her latest sewing creations are.

They are not there at the same time.

"If someone in the family happened to be sick, he didn't go to his study at all. Two evenings of the week he spent with his wife and daughters, and one evening he and his wife went out to dinner, or to the theatre or a concert. That left him only four. He had Saturdays and Sundays, of course, and on those two days he worked like a miner under a landslide. Augusta was not allowed to come on Saturday, though she was paid for that day. "

Notice that he spends three evenings a week with his family. Whoohoo.

And besides, the professor seems more interested in the dress forms than in ordinary women who fill the dresses. Although he does show kindness when Augusta says she hadn't expected to have her hair turn grey in her job as seamstress. He tells her what lovely thick hair she has and that she won't be needing any of those hairpieces that are so in fashion.

Augusta certainly isn't chopped liver.

~Maryal

Well, Augusta only worked there six weeks out of the year- three in spring and three in fall. Plus, Augusta worked in the room during the day, the professor at night. They "did not elbow each other too much."

the attic room -Cather herself worked writing in just such a space when she stayed with the wealthy McClung family in Pennsylvania. "For her writing, an attic sewing room was transformed into a study where Cather, far from the bustle on the lower floors, could enjoy the solitude on which creativity thrives. " -Gerber, WILLA CATHER Even the window view described is similar.

So, I think the Cather/Professor connection is strong. And also, remember that the man is a writer- writers don't write in a room full of people. They need a place of their own that inspires the creative juices. So, to me, he isn't isolating to be stand- offish, he's isolating in order to do his work. Big difference. And I think he even states that he didn't want to be dragged into the downstairs life, because he knew he would get involved in it. Not because he didn't want to. I'm feeling like I need to defend our Professor lest he be misunderstood.

I'm wondering what Lillian does to fill her time. She seems a bit codependent to me, living through the lives of her sons- in- law. her daughters are grown and gone- what is she doing with herself? She apparently wants Godfrey's attention but isn't getting it.

The start of this book was a surprise, after having read My Antonia, where the main character
was warm and generous.

This St. Peter person is annoying.
It bothers me that he seems to like the company of the seamstress better than spending time with his wife.
Does he think that being a professor ... rather ... Professor with a capital P ... gives him the right to have everything he wants?
The right to build a new house "into which he did not want to move" after he received the Oxford prize.
The right to retain the old house, so that his study is apart, is distant from his family?
The right to omit telling his wife whenever he was pleased:
"when did it begin ... the convention that if a man were pleased ... he shouldn't say so, frankly?" (Chapter 3)
The right to slice and dice his son-in-law, Louie, because of the new house he is building.

Interesting that we sure did pick a book where houses play a prominent role!
But does anyone notice how each house may stand as a symbol for each marriage?

For me one of the more important passages of this novel happened in Chapter Two:

"...Let me explain, Sir Edgar," Marsellus went on eagerly. "We have named our place for Tom Outland, a brilliant young American scientist and inventor, who was killed in Flanders, fighting with the Foreign Legion, the second year of the war, when he was barely thirty years of age. Before he dashed off to the front, this youngster had discovered the principle of the Outland vacuum, worked out the construction of the bulkheaded vacuum that is revolutionizing aviation. He had not only invented it, but, curiously enough for such a hot-headed fellow, had taken pains to protect it. He had no time to communicate his discovery or to commercialize it -- simply bolted to the front and left the most important discovery of his time to take care of itself."

To me the death of Tom Outland should have been a representation of "youth and courage", but Marsellus almost "demontizes" him rather than remembering the man for whom he really was a brilliant young scientist and couragous soldier. Marsellus refers to Outland as a "hot-headed fellow" who "dashed" off to join the Foreign Legion when he was just barely thirty.

If indeed Cather put herself into this novel as the Professor, do you think her sympathies about WWI were closer to those of the Professor rather than those of Marsellus?

On the other hand would Outland's invention have been commercialized at all if it had not been for Marsellus's wits and money.

St. Peter--an interesting name (Saint Peter), given that he is also God-free--is certainly interesting enough with his uniqueness. And I admit that I find him in many ways attractive. I like his independence, that he doesn't care what others think of his writing, that he is a free thinker. In Chapter 1 we read ". . . for looks, the fewer clothes he had on, the better," which seems to relate to characteristics more than physical. He doesn't go in for extravagance, for much more than bare necessity, and does well by it.

At the same time, it seems that St. Peter only partially engages his life. This comes up again and again. He only partially participates in his family's life; he seems to have a more meaningful relationship with the dress forms. He won't leave his old office and build one at the new house. Other examples are the dinner conversation he doesn't enter, his coming into the conversation with Lillian and Louie from the outside.

While thinking on his name, Godfrey, I wonder in what ways he transcends God, or is free from God and to what expense. A big question which I am only beginning to look into.

You know it also struck me that the tables have turned here for Lillian. She was jealous of the Professor's relationship with Tom Ouotland and not she is having a relationship with her sons-in-law about which the Professor is jealous. I was struck by the scene at the dinner during which Louie touches Lillian on her bare arm, much more of an intimate contact than we see between Lillian and Godfrey at any time in these chapters.

Professor St.Peter huh, as in Simon Peter, the fisherman? I wonder why Cather chose that particular name. I wonder if our professor will be called upon to be a follower in our story, as Simon Peter was, by Jesus. Perhaps he will thrice deny his family or friends, causing the cock to crow. Well let me read on.

Right, Scootz, but it wasn't always that way. At first,

'Before his marriage, and for years afterward, Lillian's prejudices, her divinations about people and art (always instinctive and unexplained, but nearly always right), were the most interesting things in St. Peter's life....he was thrown upon his wife for mental companionship.' p38

I'm almost sorry to go to chapter three to reply to Scootz's observation, after seeing how Maryal mines the first chapter for interesting matter. But we can see from this this that Godfrey does need people, he's not a loner by any means. After Lillian, someone else must have come along with new 'prejudices' and 'divinations' that caught the professor's fancy. He seemed to carry on a dialogue of sorts with Augusta. But of course we know that when Tom Outland came into St. Peter's life, most everybody else was, shall we say, chopped liver? It wouldn't surprise me if Outland turns out to be the turquoise of the epigraph.

St. Peter seems to have arrived at a mid-life crisis, with his work completed and himself too depleted or too dispirited to take on something new. He has achieved a great deal. And it says something about his personality and temperament to have written up eight volumes of adventure. He would give anything to relive the happy years toiling away at his big project. His family? They're all doing just fine, even if they can hardly stand each other. Louie seems the most likeable, trying to please everyone, and making the good life possible with what he does with Outland's invention. It's an interesting family situation.

Ginny, we all love your way of putting things. Your reasons and your 'divinations' are most engaging. Which house appeals to you? The old place? The new place? R and L's mansion on the lake? The McGregors little bungalow?

Has anyone pointed out that Hamilton must be near Lake Michigan, and not too far from Chicago? Louie talks about a half hour's drive from the St. Peter's new place to the country house on the lake. That was darn nice of Louie to propose 'Outland' as a name for the house that Tom built, so to speak. But Godfrey likes that no better than the new house that his earnings built. Strange.

I had a few things I wanted to note in chapter one as well.

What do you make of Kathleen saying that "the thing that really makes Papa handsome is the modelling of his head between the top of his ear and his crown: it is quite the best thing about him." Is it just me or did anyone else find this strange? Such a specific area of a man's head to be pointed out as a best feature?



Two things Cather said I just loved here:

one- Walls and ceiling alike were covered with a yellow paper which had once been very ugly, but had faded into inoffensive neutrality." and this, speaking of Augusta's hands :

"he had often wondered how she managed to sew with hands that folded and unfolded as rigidly as umbrellas. Love that!

And this for you all... What, pray tell, is a "negative comfort"? "But he had been able to get on only by neglecting negative comforts." Seems like an oxymoron to me..what's it mean?

I respect St. Peter because of his passion. He spent years writing eight volumes about Spanish Adventurers. It's not an easy task to find and obtain happiness. St. Peter is one of the few who experienced this type of joy. To me, he is a little like Thoreau. He walks to his own drummer. The money or what it can buy does not concern him. St. Peter reminds me of Thoreau. He walks to his own drummer. In the process, he finds great fulfillment. He tells his wife,

"If with that cheque I could have bought back the fun I had writing my history, you'd never have got your house."

Maybe that seems like a selfish statement. Maybe it's not selfish. Perhaps, writing about the Spanish Adventurers and visiting Spain numerous times was his only selfish deed, the only part of himself he refused to give over to others, even his family.

Someone asked about Henry James v Willa Cather. Cather idolized Henry James, and her first novel, ALEXANDER'S BRIDGE is described as being highly Jamesian in its form and in its interest in relationships between artists.

I have only read two Cathers and three James, but I'd never have called their writing similar. To me, Cather is so much more easily read and James is so introspective and deep. Maybe it's just me (?)but to me, they're chalk and cheese.

Henry James, as I see it, had a definite concern with European vs. American values. I think it is not whether one author is easy vs. the difficulty of another author's way of writing. In this instance, it is the concern of a young country, America, vs. a the very cultural and traditional values of Europe.

In "The Professor's House," there is the English scholar, Sir Edgar Spilling. "So anxious to do the usual thing in America that he wore a morning street suit." Here is the European vs. American situation.

In "My Antonia," there is the Immigration experience. I think it is in this story where the father becomes so homesick for the homeland. My memory is not very good. Sorry. I know that story is in either My Antonia or O Pioneers. I have read both books including The Lost Lady. I have also read "The Song of the Lark" by Cather. I am sure there are many people here who have read all of Cather.

In all three books there is a juxtaposition between the rough and ready young Americans trying to make a homeland and the Europeans already established in moral values across the sea.

I took a course in "Cather, Jewett and another woman author in the early nineties. For the life of me, I can not remember the other author. This is when I became involved with Willa Cather.

Again, this is a quote from the Random House Reading Guide in the heading. It is now on the other page.

"The Professor's House was published in 1925, only seven years after My Ántonia, but it is set in an America that is at least a half-century removed from its frontier past, an America that sells off its heritage while buying up the relics of European antiquity."

I do agree Henry James is very difficult. I have read three quarters of "A Portrait of a Lady," and I have read all of the small "Daisy Miller."

I think the father in "My Antonia" finally commits suicide because he can not forget the old country. Again, excuse my poor memory.

I do not drop things out of the top of my hat. I graduated with a four year degree in Contemporary American Literature in December 1996 with a minor in Psychology. I graduated from U.T.C.

Usually, I do not discuss college. My self esteem did not repair itself during the college years. Perhaps, because I attended during the late period of my life it was too late to get rid of my shyness and my inability to believe in myself. Now I have trouble remembering all of those wonderful courses. Sometimes, I can not spell correctly, plots are a mismatched. Still, I never throw facts out into the air for no reason or just to drop names.

Even after attending college, I know so little. When I hear the words of Ginny, Deems, JoanP, Jonathan, Mal and others here, I feel blessed to sit and learn all over again. Thank you for allowing me to share.

For awhile, I am going to lurk. I will gain more from the discussion by listening. I have already gained so much.

I think it is not whether one author is easy vs. the difficulty of another author's way of writing.

However, the person was asking about the writing styles of the two writers, hats. It's to that that I was referring. And I do think their styles are very different, from the little I've read.James? difficult; Cather-easier

Actually, here's the post, I went back and found it and it's from Scrawler. Seems to me she was pretty astute to see a similarity because I wouldn't have. Yet, I see that Cather did mimic his style, at least in that first book.

Does any see a similar style of writing between HENRY JAMES and Wila Carther? What do you think of her style of writing?

Strange. I read all your posts and none of you folks were struck with what I felt was the most important points of these chapters for me. So I wil give my view.

At the beginning of Chapt. 5 Scott and Mrs. St.Peter listen to one of Godfreys lectures (It is not only his second name but his first as well that give us pause to think about him in relationship to God and religion). I will quote part of what he is saying to his students:

""As long as every man and woman who crowded into the cathedrals on Easter Sunday was a principal in a gorgeous drama with God, glittering angels on one side and the shadows of evil coming and going on the other, life was a rich thing. The King and the Beggar had the same chance at miracles and great temptations and revelations. And thats what makes men happy, beleiving in the mystery and importance of their own little individual lives.It makes us happy to surround our creature needs and bodily instincts with as much pomp and circumstance as possible. Art and Religion (they are the same thing in the end) have given man the only happiness he has ever had."

Now if the Professor beleives his own words than his wife and children have given him no happiness at all. The professor seems to me a person participating in his family but with at least one foot out of it.

Shortly after writing this book Cather returned to her religous roots (Episcopalion Church) and began railing against many modern technological advances. So these words of the professor also are her new developing ideas for herself.

One of the questions Ginny asks is how would you describe this person to others; In my eyes he is a very self centered person who may have some endearing qualities but who is essentially cut off from his wife's feelings (The reason causing her to be a nag and the reason she flirts with her sons in law). The person he loved and admired ,Tom, may have had too much of an effect on him. An effect he has not really analyzed.

Judy

(The reason causing her to be a nag and the reason she flirts with her sons in law)

Interesting thought, Judy. I confess that some of you have turned my head a bit re our professor today. I'm not ready to give up on him yet, but I certainly see where you're coming from.

As long as we're forging ahead to the full week, I can't wait to get an explanation about the tableau because I didn't understand that at all.

Jonathan--You are the first to point out the location. I agree that it's probably Michigan and not too far north of Chicago. Lake Michigan can be seen from the professor's attic study.

A tableau is composed of real people, often in costume, posed in a situation. They do not move. The making of tableaus was part of entertainment at the time. Sometimes, a play will make use of the tableau by having the actors freeze on stage as the lights are dimmed and then put out. St. Peter has posed his two sons-in-law for his tableau.

"Not long ago, when the students were giving an historical pageant to commemorate the deeds of an early French explorer among the Great Lakes, they asked St. Peter to do a picture for them, and he had arranged one which amused him very much, though it had nothing to do with the subject. He posed his two sons-in-law in a tapestry-hung tent, for a conference between Richard Plantagenet and the Saladin, before the walls of Jerusalem. Marsellus, in a green dressing-gown and turban, was seated at a table with a chart, his hands extended in reasonable, patient argument. The Plantagenet was standing, his plumed helmet is his hand, his square yellow head haughtily erect, his unthoughtful brows fiercely frowning, his lips curled and his fresh face full of arrogance. The tableau had received no special notice, and Mrs. St. Peter had said dryly that she was afraid nobody saw his little joke. But the Professor liked his picture, and he thought it quite fair to both the young men."

It's the last paragraph of chap. 6. What I'm not clear about is whether the professor aranged an actual tableau or if he merely sketched one, using his sons-in-law as models, for his students to replicate.

James and Cather, stylistically, are far apart. Especially if one is thinking of the late James where happenings are often so discretely implied that it is almost impossible to figure out what is going on.

But James was the American writer of Cather's youth and he no doubt had an effect on her. Perhaps, as Hats suggests, in his choice of subject matter.

Maryal

That still didn't explain what the Professor's joke was deems. I understood the story- not the joke.

This is getting more interesting by the minute. Cather certainly sends out a lot of signals with different meanings. She may turn out to be more meaningful than James.

It's very interesting to hear that St. Peter may just be reflecting the author's own self-questioning problems. Why not? They are both about the same age. Fifty-something? St. Peter's publishing record of eight volumes, with steadily growing recognition, matches almost exactly Cather's production and recognition as a novelist.

The tableau incident is a mystery to me. What did it mean to its creator. Was it St. Peter's idea of comparing his two sons-in-law? Does the evidence so far warrant such a view of the two men? It would seem to be a 'little joke' to portray his Jewish son-in-law as Saladin, that is, as a Muslim. We can't be expected to understand this guy's sense of humor, however. Not yet, at any rate.

Talk about royalty. Elizabeth, the first 80 years is about to come on, on PBS. I must go down and watch it.

It would seem to be a 'little joke' to portray his Jewish son-in-law as Saladin, that is, as a Muslim.

Aha! That's got to be it, Jonathan. And yes, those parallels with Cather and the professor are all on target.

That's all I can think of too, Jonathan. That Saladin is Muslim and Louie is a Jew. That makes Scott (who is Scottish) or at least Anglo Richard the Lionhearted. Sorry, Scootz, I misunderstood you.

Sorry, Scootz, I misunderstood you.

No problem. I did say I didn't understand the tableau thing and didn't specify joke. I wasn't clear. Now I get it!

I like the professor – the book entitled the Professors House has me seeing the description of the house as the description of the Professor and the word House has a double meaning – not just our body but our entire being, thoughts, feelings etc. is our house.

The opening sentence is - "The moving is over and done." Upon reading these first six chapters it seems to me the house was not only a metaphor for the Professor who spent a great deal of time in the attic – his head - but his house included that he was a married man with the joys of being a playful father when he stopped on his way from attic to cellar - from his head to the practical matters of earning a dollar or as they say hauling water and chopping wood.

Part of the Professors house was his marriage as well as, his career and like the wobbly stair treads he wobbled back and froth doing the best he could between his head [the attic] and heart [the garden] and responsibilities as a father and husband [the rest of the house and the cellar].

His awkward behavior during social encounters were his mantle [mantle - shelf that projects from wall above fireplace or was it another word with two meanings - a symbol of authority; "wear the mantle of authority on your shoulders"] And just as he could have fixed the physical house he could have fixed the parts of his personalities that did not match societies idea of "proper" or success.

This would have been a man after my mother’s heart with her always saying, “He/she/they are rich from having money” or “He/she/they are poor for not having money.” In other words money was not the measure of success – money/wealth was a shallow success – real success was your character, you knowledge, and your special skills that you performed with the pride of an artisan.

His garden like his heart were well tended, a thing of organized beauty without spilling over – staying within its borders although not everything in the garden was useful – no fruit trees just like science is not a thing to enjoy for its beauty but something that bears fruit – he surrounds his flowering plants with his permanence, solidity, and integrity. The stones of his pebble path signify safety, refuge, and protection - The abode of his soul portray the fragile quality of childhood and his Linden Tree is loved in Europe as a thing of beauty, grace and conjugal love. Interesting it is emblematic of Marriage in Germany more than in France.

Interesting he shared warm soft evenings with Tom here in the garden rather than on the front porch which would have been the typical place for long summer evening talks before WWII. Again, suggesting he and Tom opened their souls to each other in the safety of the Professors walled garden. Even the wall is a symbol that suggests the inner and sacred space enclosed from the outer darkness.

In September when he must return to his obligation as the breadwinner, he brings with him the Geranium, symbol of consolation.

In his head, his opening the world is an east window where the sun rises – his youth, the direction of worship to the solar gods, resurrection – and like the faded yellow wallpaper he is no longer jealous, ambitious nor is he filled with the faith and goodness of a bright golden yellow. His character is no longer the ugly side of yellow, rather he accepts the revealed truths as he sees them.

This is not a man whose passions are worn on his sleeve – but a good man like the house – yes too narrow and parts of him he neglected however, he filled his interior house with books, and adventure to enlighten his curiosity about his Spanish history. Spain, a Catholic Country of extremes from the soft sensual luxuriant Moroccan influence to the hard cruel stringent Inquisition of its Catholic past.

My guess is that the move to the new house is a shift in his internal house - his marriage is no longer the same intimate secure love he enjoyed – his love was like his organized garden yes, however, faithful to their weekly night out together and considerate of his wife's connection to the worldly things that matter little to him.

He is a man who dwells in the attic of his house and prefers the company of people who also dwell in their attic as well as folks who make things of beauty which is why I think the dress patterns were mixed among his research papers and why he and the seamstress were able to share the same room. They were both about the doing not the caring or the show where as his wife was about the caring of the girls and now that she is older she is also about the show with their new house and of course Marsellus who is the peacock feeding off everyone.

Aha it would be well to read the posts - OK my thought was not to religion but that Saladin represents great wealth and luxury - silks, spice and dancing girls where as Richard was strong and plain with the discipline of the Spartans to have crossed the huge land mass with an army that fought in rain and mud - Richard was from a land of cold gray stone walls were as Saladin is from the land of wind and sand.

Thanks for the heads up, horselover. I would like to see it.

Couldn't be the gardener, so he's deliberately in the attic alternating or occupying alternately a space with a seamstress (named AUGUSTA!!) and the dress forms. You all see his attachment to the dress forms as meaning what?

It isn't just the dress forms, Ginny, I don't think. It's the entire ambience. It's all about "place" in the artist's life.

I think we all know how strongly place took a part in young Willa's life, plunked down in the prairie, her personality erased. It had a profound affect upon her writing for her entire life. Later, I guess Arizona and New Mexico did similar things for her, but it was always her beginnings that were the special place for her. Her great friend and mentor, Sarah Orne Jewett, told her to find her place, to go out into the world to discover the significance of that place as it sets into the rest of the world- rather like the turquoise sets into the silver.

The Professor's attic room is his place as an artist. He doesn't want to let go of it. He's afraid of what letting go might do to his soul, his creative process. It's not just the forms, it's the window view, the lack of heat, the insulation from the outside world, the lack of file drawers, the box-couch. What happens to him if he loses his "place"? For me, this is what the house (and his reluctance to leave it)is all about.

re the lecture and being honest- I read it and didn't get what he was talking about and still don't. I will go back, re-reread and see what I can come up with. Later on this.

I keep thinking of the attic as his place of happines. This is where he wrote all eight volumes of his books.. This is his refuge from family. I dont think he really is that much of a family person, but neither was Cather. The walled garden interests me because I suspect there are not many in the midwest at this period. French gardens are quite symmetrical. No sprawling flowers etc. Is this his heart to be perfect and cold? I did not understand the tableau at all. Maybe later it will sink in.

I'm about to leave for the day, and won't be back till tomorrow morning. So I wanted to post my thoughts about the lecture before I left.

The main theme of the professor's lecture seems to be the division between science and art/religion. Science has done little to enhance man's life. It is merely a distraction from the riddles and mysteries of life -- areas that both art and religion strive to answer and glorify.

Science makes sin (one's personal conduct), of no consequence. And this is not beneficial to man. Art and religion on the other hand, have given happiness to man by making their "little lives" of importance. Artists and theologians both have glorified man's life, and his expression and therefore give man's life meaning. Science does not give man's life meaning, but in fact takes it away by minimizing the importance of man's conduct.

That's my take! See you all tomorrow.

Yes I agree Scootz - I would add one more - I think he is saying that science is about making us comfortable on this earth - medicine, understanding in an organized way the natural sciences - how to build better "things" because we have examined what we would call engineering and the makeup of material - how material intermingles - electricity - electronics - on and on science4 gives us an organized formula that we can apply to our surroundings that will allow us to use our surroundings in a new and different way which has nothing to do with examining our soul.

Like so many who attend college today who are only getting a degree to prepare themselves for a career rather than, to grow in their examination of life, their soul, the meaning of their being. That is the stuff of a good liberal arts degree or at minimum a degree in history and better yet a degree in philosophy,

At this time in history there were not many artisans who attended college - there were no degrees beyond a liberal arts degree for 2 and 3 dimensional artists, theatre arts, much less gardeners or seamstresses. A student of art studied abroad. A seamstress/tailor/lace maker was part of a team that produced the creations in Paris or, as a private seamstress they may sew the mundane however, their artistic skill came to play when they created the costumes for various occasions - from the crowning of a king, to the uniforms of the generals - the dress a baby wore to be baptized to the gown young women wore to their coming out party or other special balls.

This artistic skill was often spoken about when a poor women would change out a collar or add a handmade fabric flower to her old dress or a child's creation was made from the fathers suit or as in "Gone with the Wind" the drapes were used to create a ball gown.

Reading this is bringing me back to a time when a person was richer for their artisan skills - today everything is so mechanized that seldom what we do with our hands brings us that deep satisfaction and recognition by others. A carpenter was revered where as to day the quicker and more efficient something can be built for the least dollars is all that counts. Few homes are custom built any longer as an artistic endeavor - they are simple a place to live with the higher dollar homes often a place where all vain glorious frills and conveniences bring up the price.

When we look at the older homes in our communities - those built before WWII and in most cases before WWI going back to the early development of this nation we know the names of the builders of those homes. Knowing who built them we see that a builder was part architect and there is a distinctive style the builder brought to the many houses he is credited with building in a community. Here the builder is Abner Cook - who used much Greek influence in his designs and decoration. A builder was an artisan who enriched not only the owners of the house but the community who passed these houses on their daily walks etc.

The crowning glory was when the owner was the artisan who arranged to build the house. Where Marsellus did have a hand built artistic house it was because he arranged with money to have this built - it was not designed from his soul - the way I see him, everything he does is like hot air with very little substance and like the sands of the desert he takes over anything the wind blows his way.

Found it - hurray - it was in Joan Edwards "Crewel Embroidery in England" - a wheel showing the fine and decorative arts - her book starts off with the Bayeux Tapestry and continues to post WWII refurbishing with needlework Winchester Cathedral.

The most outer ring has -- Geography - Trade - Economic and Social History

The next ring has -- Music, Painting, Sculpture, Architecture, Literature.

Inside the ring as spokes of a wheel are Gardens, Tapestry, Textiles, Costume, Lace, Furniture, Woodwork, Ceramics, Glass, Metalwork, Silver, Jewellery, Ivories, Enamels, Miniatures, Manuscripts, Theatre and Embroidery she shows as the hub - true or not I think the hub could be any of these arts however this book is about the history of Crewel Embroidery in England published in 1975.

We learn when studying the history of Embroidery, Lace, Textiles that trade has as much to do with the materials available in which new expressions of art flourish and the economy affects those who can devote their life to the arts and our geography alters the raw material available as well as the trade routes where by ideas spread - today the Internet is the trade route of old...

All to say that I see St. Peter making a judgment about the expression of our soul through the arts but he does not seem to take into account that business must have a dignified place for the arts to have the materials available and the money to support the endeavor of artists - he seems to put his own needs for the material to keep warm or put light on his art [writing his book] in the cellar and his job as a professor second to his conversing in either his library or the garden unless a student shows a certain enthusiasm. To me this is his narrow view much like the house that is too narrow.

If you look at Cather's descriptions you can see the same flowery descriptive phrases in Henry James work. I will admit that Henry James is a much deeper author and Cather barely makes ripples in it, but their basic thoughts about life are very similar. This is especially true in my opinion of Henry James's: "The Golden Bowl," "The Wings of the Dove," and "Washington Square."

Also in Chapter 2 of "The Professor's House" we get an insight into the real nature of the professor at the dinner party. St. Peter, instead of confronting Louie about the propriety of naming his house after his wife's ex-fiance, retreats into his, as his wife calls it, "disapproving silence [that] can kill the life of any company."

Perhaps, St. Peter's refusal to speak about Louie's propriety of naming his house is really a reflection of his upbringing. He prefers not to acknowlge the "propriety" orally especially when there are strangers in their presence.

On the other hand, involuntary silences imply something about language. Language is rational and logical, but confronted with an illogical situation as in Louie's propriety about the naming of his house any words from St. Peter would seem illogical and this is not who the professor is by nature. Instead of confronting Louie, St. Peter prefers to wait until the "proper" time to talk to Louie in his own genteel way.

Scrawler, I love your thought. "On the other hand, involuntary silences imply something about language."

How would you describe The Professor if you were talking confidentially to a close friend?

The professor loves solitude. Not a perfect place, at least, a quiet place in which to write and research. I think he likes Augusta because she creates also. Her creations are dresses. He molds and shapes words on paper. Maybe the dress forms in the room remind him of her successful creations. Giving him a feeling of inspiration or success. Also, at one time, his children were small works of art. In some way, these forms crank up his creative juices or remind him of a past, perhaps, a happy one.

Those forms make me feel St. Peter is a thinker. He doesn't want new dress forms to replace the old ones. He wants the same "old" forms. With all of his wise thinking, is adjusting to change difficult for St. Peter?

I think St. Peter appreciates water too. Water gets his creative flow going for writing. Kansas, without a body of water, made him feel empty, lost. It is the lake outside of the old study window that stirs him up and strengthens him again. This is how he describes Lake Michigan.

"It is a sea, and yet it is not salt. It is blue, but quite another blue. Yes, there are clouds and mists and sea-gulls, but..."

What does "water" symbolize? What does "water" mean to St. Peter? Water cleanses. When St. Peter sees the lake, I feel he is fighting or struggling with some past mistakes. The water may wash him of gloom and guilt, the word "baptism" comes to mind. I am thinking of Alf's post about Simon Peter.

Scrawler, without knowing very much about either James or Cather, I don't know what to say about that. But I am struck by the depth of this tale we are reading. It has been described as a terrifying story. There's certainly no lack of psychological complexity about it. Things which may seem obvious may not necessarily be so. Take, for example, the naming of the new place down by the lake. It clearly raises intense feelings of jealousy in St. Peter. What right has Louie to a part of Tom Outland? Louie should be forgiven his attempt to please his father-in-law by honoring the lost love of the professor. And Rosamond finds herself in a most unusual situation. Was she ever in love with Outland? Or was she, too, just trying to please her father making her father's favorite her husband. Under the surface, everything is turmoil.

Trolling for more historical info on the book and author I came across an essay by James Woodress-Prof. of Amer.Lit at U.C.Davis (CA). He brings up the following points:

"The Author was 52 years old when she wrote the book. It was her seventh novel. She was attempting two structural experiments for the first time. One,taken from the French and Spanish novelists of inserting a "Nouvelle into the roman" . Hence the Tom Outland story wedged between two other parts of the novel. She also compares the novels structure to a sonata form in music, with the center section in contrast to the surrounding sections.

This is a story of a man,who, despite his success, experiences at midcareer a profound disappointment with life. It is the fierce account of how he decides to continue living despite these disappointments."

Another writer, Donald Lyom writes much on the book but I will quote only his first paragraph:

"Willa Cather's novel .....is an inquiry into the nature of civilization, of man's impulse to civilize and create. The book holds in majestic and mournful equipose both the nobility of the civilizing instinct and the certainty of its frustration."

Now Ginny and all the choosers of this "easy read" what have you to say ? Seems like we have fallen into a pit which , in order to understand things, we will need not just our thinking caps but our philosophy books as well. The waters are getting choppy and there may be storm clouds on the horizon. But our boat will weather the storm since we have a strong and capable crew who will find all the secrets neede to overcome the most complex of weather patterns.

Judy

Ah Lake Michigan. I love that lake. It is like the ocean--big big with wonderful waves sometimes. And not infrequently choppy, as Judy has just noted. I also think of it as a different sort of blue than any other body of water I have ever seen.

It looked like a summer novel, I guess. It is short. But it certainly is not simple, as we are learning.

"I was rather rambling on today. I'm sorry you happened along."

The lecture

It appears that Tod Miller, the student, waved a red flag when he suggested to the lecturing St. Peter, that he 'consider science as a phase of human development.' The professor replies with an outburst of outraged religious feelings relevant to the true, ideal nature of a university education.

No surprise. We have already found him musing in his attic (first paragraph, Chapter 4) about the deplorable trend to

'athletics and to the agricultural and commercial schools favoured and fostered by the State Legislature.'

Not to mention the regrettable beginnings of an ivy-league social prestige and mannering institution that's fostered by his colleague, professor Horace Langtry.

We can only guess at what the lecture was about. But what a curious mind-set is revealed in the professor's ravings about

'angels on one side, and the shadows of evil coming and going on the other'

Is the professor going mad? Is he grasping at intellectual straws at a very stressful stage of his life? Lillian, his wife, is clearly concerned. His whole family is worried by his alienation. When do we get to know this Tom Outland? Henry James, move over...

(this is some great stuff, those running up the street and joining late will be shocked) hit Printer Friendly or you'll miss this super stuff. I WILL stop saying Good point! (but they ARE!)

Ginny--Lake Michigan is visible from the professor's attic room--a blur on the horizon.

"There was one fine thing about this room that had been the scene of so many defeats and triumphs. From the window he could see, far away, just on the horizon, a long, blue, hazy smear--Lake Michigan, the inland sea of his childhood." (chap 1)

It's the lake he keeps swimming in. He's a swimmer; reason two to stand up for him.

I am seeing that he's the head of European History, that makes sense. This is on page 44 in the paperback, the end of Chapter 3, when the board of regents made a chair for Langtry in Renaissance history.

In the field of European History, then, is where we find our lecture, let's look at it within that context, that makes a LOT more sense, to me.

Ginny, there are four other Great Lakes besides Michigan. That Lake and it's place in the story has been bugging me since I read it.His father came from Canada, but they farmed near Lake Michigan -- Wisconsin, MInnesota, Michigan ? There may have been farms along the southern part but I doubt it -- Chicago? Gary?, although he remembers the train going past the dunes when the parents uprooted him and moved to Kansas.

But then Cather talks about the heat of the prairie and how St. Peter sends the family to Colorado during the summers. We probably don't want to get hung up on semantics -- prairies and lakes. He loved his lake, misses it when he's away from it, and in addition to Tom OUtland, his wife was jealous (or at least objected) to the time he spent there. That's why he started his walled garden. (And why don't his neighbors like it?) Because it's walled?

I'm rambling, but after 880 miles, who wouldn't. MUst now leave the remainer of your 61 marvellous posts until tomorrow.(For the record -- I lived across the street from Lake Michigan during my growing up years.)

The phone rang. It woke me. So, now I am back up. That's a good thing. Ginny, thank you for summarizing our points. Anyway, someone mentioned Godfrey's name pronunciation. God free stayed with me. His name fits him. From what I can understand Augusta is very religious. "Devout" is the term used by Cather. Augusta is German Catholic.

I think Godfrey admires Augusta's faith. The problem is he is too involved with himself to build a religious relationship just like he can't build a relationship with his family. Godfrey tells Augusta he will feel lost without her in the old house. Godfrey asks, "Who is ever to remind me when it's All Souls day or Ember Day, or Maundy Thursday or anything?" Does Godfrey glean what he needs from the people around him? Does this allow him to spend most of his time on what pleasures him? Cather writes. "He knew that he was terribly selfish about personal pleasures, fought for them. If a thing gave him delight, he got it, if he sold his shirt for it...."

This is so odd. At the beginning, I really liked this guy. I might have been deceived by his name St. Peter. I started looking for a saint. He isn't a saint. He takes pleasure to himself and doesn't give it to his friends or family. Did he really share a giving relationship with Tom Outland? In those conversations, did he just take and not give back?

Oh yes, this bothers me too. His smoking up there in the room He opens the window. Still, the smoke gets into the dresses Augusta is sewing at the time. Why not leave the room? Augusta is so different. She carefully cleans up behind herself to make St. Peter comfortable. "Augusta swept up the scraps from the floor...closed the sewing machine, and picked ravellings off...no threads to stick to the Professor's old sewing jacket..."

I would love to know the meaning of those days: All Soul's Day, Maundy Thursday and Ember Day.

All Souls' Day is Nov. 2. All Saints' Day is Nov.1 (thus Hallowe'en--the night before all saints day)

Maundy Thursday is the Thursday of Holy Week, celebrated in the church as the night Jesus had his last supper with his disciples.

We'll have to get a Catholic in here for Ember Day. I don't know unless it's connected to Ash Wednesday. Maybe it's the day the palm branches from the preceding year are burned to make the ashes for Ash Wednesday. I am making this part up--just guessing.

I suppose I could Google it, but it's time for bed.

Maryal

Hats--This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Ember days (corruption from Lat. Quatuor Tempora, four times) are the days at the beginning of the seasons ordered by the Church as days of fast and abstinence. They were definitely arranged and prescribed for the entire Church by Pope Gregory VII (1073-1085) for the Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday after 13 December (S. Lucia), after Ash Wednesday, after Whitsunday, and after 14 September (Exaltation of the Cross). The purpose of their introduction, besides the general one intended by all prayer and fasting, was to thank God for the gifts of nature, to teach men to make use of them in moderation, and to assist the needy.

I've read the book, love the way Cather writes. But frankly, I don't think there is anything much hidden in the words except the fact that what the professor is feeling is NORMAL for his age. In fact, societies other than western societies allow for this sort of "questing for meaning" after youthful ardor and family life have passed. We in the west think it's somehow abnormal.

Personally, I think this man has done a terrific job in caring for wife and family and his career. He has done his duty. Now he is wondering what the rest of his life is all about, including old age. Maybe he feels that it's coming on swiftly and for the first time is not distracted from that fact. That also means that every person, whether or not they have a loving family, good or bad relationships with them, feels he/she is ALONE. That's something to grapple with, because ultimately no one can die for us, or save us from it.

Also, I think his family has a choke-hold on him that I find unpleasant. There's nothing wrong with "living in the mind" while doing one's duty as he did. But the family keeps imposing their wishes on him, as though nothing has changed while his interior landscape has changed completely. No wonder he wants to hang on to the old house where he can contemplate that interior self in peace, even if it's sort of messy and delapidated like the house.

I think he's facing the end of his life, and he's tired. He's especially tired of all the silly social conventions and the one-upmanship that no longer has any meaning for him. I think Marcellus is a real pain in the neck control freak. It's Marcellus who is NOT normal, while the professor is perfectly normal for his age.

Now let me ask, we are all senior citizens here. Haven't you ever felt that you are on the downward side of life, that the inevitable is coming, that you are tired from all the duties you have done and all the compromises you have made? I personally feel it all the time and have a lot of empathy for St. Peter. It's his turn now to do exactly as he wants while his family does what they want, and they no longer mesh. It's a loosening of enmeshment because the inevitable death is coming, and he knows it.

Deems, great information. Thank you. I came near the tree for "All Soul's Day." I had no idea about the other ones.

SierraroseCa, After reading your post, I am reassessing my thoughts about St. Peter. Really, it's impossible to exactly pin down any man or woman. Humans are very complex. We might fail totally in one area of life. Then, come out with flying colors in another area of life.

This, maybe, is one of St. Peter's failures. He is not aware or refuses to change his flawed areas. Really, I believe he is in touch with his inner self, his character. In this area too, he likes the old rather than the new. Again, that problem with change juts it's head. Is it possible to be a very good person and also, one who refuses to change and go a different direction? Does he "hear" what his family is saying about him? Does he talk and not listen? These are questions I am asking myself. Also, when we are on the steps of making big character changes, do people, first, appear to be totally immature?

St. Peter's immaturity reminds me of a caterpillar. St. Peter is in the caterpillar stage now. Maybe he will become a butterfly. I have a really good feeling about him because of his name. Back then people gave a lot of thought to a meaning of a name or the reason why they chose to name a baby after grandma, grandpa or uncle so and so.

St. Peter, I believe, teaches European History. His lecture is a bit heavy for me to understand. In the lecture, St. Peter sides with religion and art. To him, Science is just a magic trick. Science is used to distract us from the real problems in life. I feel Science does more than "distract" us. I really think the scientist has his place in the world with Art and religion. Not knowing much about Science, this makes me want to pay more attention to scientists. Past scientists have improved our lives. There is Louis Pasteur, Koch, etc. My belief is that it's easier to suspend judgement on Art and religion. Science? It's about changing the old, making life over in a new way. Science makes people grapple with their conscience and ethics. If this is true about Science, no wonder St. Peter calls it a "distraction." Science brings change before our eyes in a big way. Can we adjust to a new way of thinking? Is the old more comfortable? I can understand St. Peter. Science makes me feel nervous, like a rug might get pulled from under me. Science is a little frightening. Religion asks me to change. Religion also offers comfort.

I guess this will teach me, Ginny, eh what- there is now a plethora plus here of questions. Frankly, I'm overwhelmed (you asked me to be honest).

I'm going to start, Ginny by just answering the questions you directed to me.

1) The picture you posted isn't how I see Godfrey. He's swarthier, thinner, more handsome, more hair.

2)Good point, so you see him as the harassed henpecked husband, then? Weak as a person?

Absolutely NOT! Neither one of those things. He's an introvert, and a creative type. He's assessing his life thus far (as Cather was at that time)and hanging on to his place. We haven't gotten to Tom's story yet and I have a feeling that once we know it, and understand the affect it had on the Professor, it will be enlightening. In some respects, I think we may be trying to answer too much too early.

What do you think naming the house has done to St. Peter?

All I can really say with any degree of certainty right now is that he isn't pleased about it. I think he feels that Tom's name is being exploited.

I love your point about how much is "said," without being said.

It's what I mean by the writing being deceptively simple. She wrote with an economy of words, but lots of meaning. One could really read through this book in a few hours but you wouldn't see everything.

JUDY- I didn't say it was easy, I said it was short. And I mentioned her style appearing easy but that that is totally deceptive. That said, we are all up to the task here- no need to head for the lifeboats!! Undaunted courage- that's us!

3) Are there any other examples we see that we can point to of possible foreshadowing?

I haven't noticed any others yet. I'll keep an eye peeled.

4)Good points, Scootz, on the Cather/ Professor connection, was she a professor? You can defend the Professor all you like!!!

Cather did teach, yes. In 1901, she taught both Latin and English at a high school in Pittsburgh, transferring later to Allegheny High to become head of the English Department. So, not technically a prof, I guess but she did teach, and I don't think she liked it all that well, especially the Latin.

5) Good point on Lillian and what SHE does to fill her time, it's not sewing, right? If she wants Godfrey's attention, putting him out of the bedroom is not a real smart way to go about it?

She might try being interested in him and his work. And being less critical, too. And not expect all the attention to just automatically go to her. Again, I think we will understand Lillian a bit better once we hear Tom's story.

6)Good heavens, Hats, you and Scootz have read so many Cathers

I have ??? Did I type something under the influence of sedation again? This is my second Cather. I read and did an online group on O Pioneers! lasy year. I have watched the PBS special and have read about her online and in a bio- that's the extent of my knowledge. I do have several other of her books, though, as yet unread. I was blown away by O Pioneers! and couldn't imagine how I had never heard of her or it. I'm no expert but I have a great interest in her.

7)What have we NOT talked about so far that you'd like to bring up??

I have thought often that this story could be taking place now as easily as then. Isn't that what makes a classic? The fact that it's timeless? has issues that are relevant in all ages? We could plunk this bad boy right down into 2006 and never bat an eye.

Jonathan -

I don't think Godfrey's going mad. He's just having a bit of a midlife crisis, taking stock of where he is, where he wants to go.

I still want to know what the hey a negative comfort is. That's just wrong! LOL

I think I answered all the questions put to me. Now I need to go back to bed and sleep some more.

Ill come back later and see if there's anything that I can add to in the header questions- by answering them, that is, not adding to them! LOL

*postscript- I'm wondering if my intense admiration for Cather is coloring my thoughts of the Professor. I know they are one and the same- if I judge him, I'd be judging her. No way of knowing the answer of course, just something I've been pondering.

I also wonder if it was Lillian in the attic how those of you who don't like the Professor would then feel? would she be seen as independent and doing it her way? Just wonderin'....

A couple of thoughts: Naming the house is more than exploitation of Outland, it is a bitter acknowledgement that Tom would not have followed through on his discovery/invention, he lacked the ability to "sell" it. Two, Augusta is the only person in St. Peter's life who ask nothing of him; she instead adapts her needs to his and is totally subservient.

Right on sierraroseCA - I did not think mid-life crisis but that could be an explanation that is understood in what I label our pop culture - with all that has been said I still like this guy - the idea that he faithfully spends one evening a week exclusively with his wife I think is admirable - certainly not typical of the average marriage today.

I also think that we are privileged to this guy's inner thoughts and how many times have we had an interior conversation during a family dinner when we see either the guest or one of our grown children acting like a prick.

And then there is the day we all recognize the person we married has changed with age - we may look upon the change with a small smile if the love is deep but the change is noted.

I also think if we take every aspect of any novel and spin the story as if it were a movie rather than seeing that some aspects of the story are written so that the place or time or season that the character inhabits is the author's way to better explain the character and ultimately get to the message. I think by putting a lot of emphasis on the place, time or season without seeing these aspects of the story as symbolic then we are trivializing the authors skill at painting word pictures to explain the inner man or woman. I think Cather had to place St. Peter in the attic in order for us to understand how important his identity is as an individual separate from his family and community.

It seems to me if this man spent the amount of time he needs to accomplish his great history in an office, staying late and going to the office on Saturday we would see him as an ambitious man typical of so many mid-level managers today or the owner of a small business. The story tells us he stopped and played with his children during his working hours and so I do not see him as shutting out his family but rather a man who did his job while we the reader are privileged to see the makeup of his thoughts.

The many references to water does seem interesting - he was lost when as a youth he moved away from the lake and he is a good swimmer as well as having a bit of the lake to view from his one attic window -

I think it is important when the lake was referred to as a saltless sea - because symbolically a lake is considered the dwelling place of monsters, personal or magical as in 'The Lady of the Lake.' the lake also is a symbol for receptive wisdom, absorption, the humid and passive. Where as the sea is symbolic for the primordial waters, chaos, formlessness, material existence, endless motion, the source of all life containing all possibilities, the sum of all possibilities in manifestation, the unfathomable, the sea of life which has to be crossed, the great mother.

The sea could be described as green or grey but Cather chose blue and the color blue is symbolic for Truth, the Intellect, revelation, wisdom, loyalty, fidelity, constancy, chastity, chaste affection, magnanimity, prudence, piety, peace, contemplation, coolness, It is also symbolic of the void, primordial simplicity and infinite space which, being empty, can contain everything.

More than anything the symbolic description for blue reminds me of our St. Peter and in my mind be a good character description. He is cool yet, loyal, constant and seems at peace with himself. His disapproving judgments seem based on what he values and therefore, based on a truth. He does not seem to be a vindictive man at all and is not dependent on the opinion of others for his self-esteem.

In other words this man is not co-dependent - he is an individual with his own values that he teaches however, he does not seem to impose his values on others. He does choose who will be good company based on someone sharing his values and therefore he prefers to spend time with those who live their life with integrity.

His name St. Peter can remind us of the judgment aspect but we also know on earth St. Peter was loyal to Jesus until the night in Gethsemane. We also know that St. Peter went to Rome as the head of the Christian Church and was crucified.

I have not read this story nor have I read ahead but this to me is a bit ominous and I wonder if St. Peter is crucified to the values of the day which brings about the use of wealth and recognition that Marcellus aspires. Marcellus does remind me of someone who has sold his soul for a pound of gold.

Barbara,

I wondered why Barbara chose the color "blue." I think Cather repeated the color "blue" more than one time while describing Lake Michigan.

And it suddenly came TO me that this is one of the few, the very few times when the Professor actually professes his own opinions? Let's look at the "lecture" today and let's look for the other times he says personally what's on his mind other than the narrator speaking FOR him.

Good eye, Ginny. And consider this which I just read yesterday...

" On rare occasions, as in The Professor's House, Willa Cather did engage in explicit argument. Godfrey St. Peter grapples with a central modern issue when he questions overtly whether science has made human lives better or merely easier. " p. 162, WILLA CATHER , Philip Gerber

So, apparently, this was also something that Cather herself did rarely.

I still struggle with the professor. He is petty at least in his thoughts about his entire family. Will Tom be his hero? I think that the finish of the series of books has left him at a loss as to how to conduct his life. He has nothing to write about and that has governed his life for way too many years. He seems to believe that his wife although pleasant is not what he had hoped and neither of his daughters are exactly what he had in mind. I cannot believe this is a function of age. I am 68, but greet the world and days with joy and anticipation. Life is sweet.. It is also unpredictable and that is wonderful.

Chapter one: "Godfrey," his wife had gravely said one day, when she detected an ironical turn in some remark he made about the new house, "is there something you would rather have done with that money than to have built a house with it?"

"Nothing, my dear, nothing. If with that cheque I could have brought back fun I had writing my history, you'd never have got your house. But one couldn't get that for twenty thousand dollars. The great pleasures don't come so cheap. There is nothing else, thank you."

I certainly can relate to the professor with that statement. The pleasure of writing doesn't come cheap and most of the time you really spend more money than you make. But than again one doesn't write because one can gain fame or fortune. I write because it's the only thing I'd rather be doing. I think this is what the professor means with this statement. I too am a writer of history and I tend to be so adsorbed by the past that I forget what the present is like. There are times when I come out of my tree house that I can't wait to return to it again. [Like when I go to the Mall at Christmas time.]

I agree that Westerners don't really appreciate those who want to spend there time "thinking" about life. It reminded me of Maugham's "The Razor's Edge." There are other writers of course that embraced this ideal, but I can't put my finger on them at the moment. After WWI many of those veterans returning back to America from Europe were disillusioned after what they saw during the war. Family life and monetary reinbursment wasn't enough for them. There had to be something more to life for so many young and courageous men to have died.[Seems like even now in our own generation we're still asking the same question. And it still goes unanswered.]

St. Peter is caught between the past and the future, between austerity and the materialism of the 1920s. He rejects the modern ideals and finds solace in his memories and through his memories with the environment and Mother earth. Tom Outland represents the earth to him while his family represents the modern era that he is slowly being sucked into.

The Lecture

Ok Question number 23 in the heading concerns the "lecture," that Scott on his way to invite the Professor to a swim and Lillian listen in on.

I am more baffled after trying to understand it than I was when I glossed over it.

Who wants to try their hand at these?

I don't think much of science as a phase of human development.

---does anybody think of science as a phase of human development? Yes or no?

Science hasn't given us any new amazements.

--is this true? In 2006? Does this date the book?

It hasn't given us any richer pleasures…nor any new sins—not one!

---it has now, hasn't it?

Indeed, it takes our old ones away. It's the laboratory, not the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world.

--what does this mean? How does the laboratory take away the sins of the world?

You'll agree there is not much thrill about a physiological sin.

---what does this mean? Is he saying all sins are psychological?

I don't think you help people by making their conduct of no importance—you impoverish them.

---what does this mean? What has made conduct of no importance? Science?

Art and religion—(they are the same thing, in the end, of course)….

---are they?

Moses…invented elaborate ceremonials to give them a feeling of dignity and purpose.

--- this sounds more like a theology course, what is he saying here? Is he right, theologically or historically?

And of those only three that are perpetually enthralling.

---which of the 7 Deadly Sins do you think he's referring to, and why?

You might tell us next week, Miller, what you think science has done for us, besides making us very comfortable.

----What would YOU say if you were Miller?

I don't have ROOM to put these in the heading, how about grab one if you like or any in the heading or pose your own or get one out of the posts, the heading is FULL, and jump right in!

I don't recall an exact description of the "walled" garden, but if it means a solid brick/stucco/concrete/wood one with no way to see in from outside, then those are not common in the rural midwest I'm familiar with. Here in rural Iowa there are occasional, now, decorative picket-type fences and the chain link to contain children/animals and some walled yards for privacy, but not the norm, to be sure. Here yards tend to just meet and continue with the neighbor's. I remember in my childhood in small town Ohio when someone built a home with a wall around it with a courtyard through a gate; people talked about it at some length...as something ...well...strange...and often referred to by neighbors as "the cloister."

I, too, wonder about the location of "Hamilton." I was thinking maybe the Evanston area or Highland Park or would that be too far north? I have to remind myself this is 1925, so maybe not sure how long a trip it would have been from there to downtown Chicago?? Or Gary/Michigan City, as Pedln suggested... would also seem possible.

No, I don't see the Professor as selfish. He does his teaching/writing as the means to support his family and he's doing what he loves. I think in 1925 there was "man's work" and "woman's work" and the twain didn't meet. My Grandfather, who would have been a bit younger than the Prof. in 1925 knew absolutely nothing about running a house, cooking/cleaning, etc. He was doing "his job" working in the coal mines to support his wife and children. I think Lillian would have been involved with "Faculty women" and other organizations in town, as well as running the house, looking after the girls, etc. I thought that the Prof was teasing Augusta about her deeply held religious convictions when he told her that he'd not know when the religious holidays were if it were not for her.

jane

Mal, I agree that the professor knows little of science. Interestingly, Tom Outland, old student of the professor, invented the vacuum thingie, some part for airplane engines that wound up making a huge fortune. Tom hung out in the Physics Lab. He knew something about science.

I think we must remember that what the professor says is in answer to a student who apparently has suggested that science is a recent human development. His answer (not part of the lecture, but the end of the class) is, at least in part, meant to challenge the student in whom he has seen a certain spark, to think and return with answers.

It's a rant, yes, but it is fairly typical for a professor to play devil's advocate and challenge a good student to think about it and come back with a reply. Note that the professor ends with, "Thy will be done in art, as it is in heaven. How can it be done anywhere else as it is in heaven? But I think the hour is up. You might tell me next week, Miller, what you think science has done for us, besides making us very comfortable."

Has anyone read some about the discovery of the structure of DNA? If we were in St. Peter's class now, someone would be sure to bring that up as an example of the rapture possible in science. As if no one else did, I would.

In other words, I don't think we see anything much of who the professor is in this little tirade about art, religion, and science.

And I do think it's a challenge to Miller.

~Maryal

Jane--I too remember few, if any, walled gardens in my part of Illinois. And yes, the setting could be in Illinois, slightly north of Chicago, and not Michigan. But I think we are to the North of Chicago. Can't remember exactly where I got that idea, but it's there somewhere. I don't think it's Gary, Indiana, although I do think that St. Peter's original home might have been Indiana--all those dunes.

And I too took the professor's comments about all those Holy Days as a gentle teasing of Augusta. She is a devout Catholic--it must have seemed to the professor that those Ember Days were always coming around since they occur four times a year!

Maryal

St. Peter himself speaks of his rambling:

"I was rather rambling on to-day. I'm sorry you happened along. There's a fellow in that lot, Tod Miller, who isn't slow, and he excites me to controversy."

He sees that Miller isn't slow (has a good mind, one worth developing).

"How can it be done anywhere else as it is in heaven?" . . . well presumably in one's daily life--lived as an individual and in community, which is the whole point of religion and, more deeply and broadly is the point of pursuing the "real problems" to which he refers at the beginning of the lecture. It's more than "little individual lives."

Stephanie, you are lucky, or something. I have some days like that myself. Perhaps this is just what is missing in Godfrey's life. Something seems to have gone out of his life. His 'lecture', which sounds more like a homily to me, cleary shows him wrestling with angels, and looking for miracles, and other excitements. Science does not interest him. Doesn't turn him on. What was it in the lecture that we did not hear, that had the student Miller challenging the professor? My guess would be that it was eulogizing the age of faith, or the springtime of the arts in the Renaissance, certainly there must have been talk about 'old world' values? The walled garden makes it obvious that he admired that sort of thing in Europe. On the plains? It would seem like a cloistered life to his neighbor. Neighbors in the west are a lifeline. In a densely packed community they are intruders. Here's a man jealous of his space. Seems an irony when practiced on the plains of mid-America.

He doesn't care for science. Or should one say the fruit it bears? Some pure, or theoretical scientists laugh, or are dismayed, by the applications of their discoveries in gadgetry and guns. Tom might never have done anything with his invention. It takes a Louie to do something with it. Tom and the professor would make a display of it in a museum.

And what business does science have in trying to take away the sins of the world by explaining them physiologically or psychologically? Godfrey seems to need sin to give his life some meaning. I don't think he is going mad, but.... I'm still with his wife Lillian in thinking that his reaction to being baited by Miller was in bad taste.

'I was rather rambling on to-day' shows his embarrassment at being caught thinking out loud, and displaying his spiritual turmoil. IMO.

Here's something I've found. In an article "Nebraska: The End of the First Cycle" in the NATION 117 (5 September 1923), WC wrote about her concerns that

'the University of Nebraska may become a gigantic trade school. The men who control its destiny, the regents and the lawmakers, want their sons and daughters to study machines, mercantile processes, 'the principles of business'; everything that has to do with getting on in the world - and nothing else. The classics, the humanities, are having their dark hour. They are in eclipse.'

But Godfrey St. Peter is an intensely human being. It's his story. Or is it Tom Outland's. Or Willa Cather's?

. . . the same person. I was gone for quite a while from SN and got a new ISP. For some reason I couldn't sign in under my old name, so chose this one which is similar enough to people would intuit who I am. Thanks for the welcome.

Regarding your comment of: "Good point Sierra Rose on the "alone" factor of every man, I like that. I also appreciate your view of him as a good father and a terrific job caring for his wife and family. So you see the "choke-hold" coming from his family and not himself. I see a choke hold too, I am wondering how many there are. When you say he's at the end of his life, what gives you that impression? He's still teaching. And to me, he's been tending to himself for some time, in that attic."

He's at the end of his life and feels it because he just finished a huge project, probably the only huge project he will ever do because there isn't time for another like that. His groping for meaning has less to do with his present age than it has to do with that emptiness that, I think many creative people feel after they have completed something big, and the St. Peter is feeling that acutely. It's sort of a groping for the next creative project, which may or may not come, and which may or may not be finished because of his age, and one looks back with nostalgia over an enjoyable part of ones life. He's also quite tired from having so many irons in the fire, including his family and teaching responsibilities which he seems to have taken very seriously.

Also, at his age, I think a thoughtful person does grapple with the downward side of living, thinks about it, and attempts to come to terms with it. It's people like Lillian who distract themselves endlessly with trivia who don't bother to think about it. And as one hits that downward slide, I think many people tend to feel their "aloneness" no matter how much they love the people they are related to---because ultimately we are alone.

Regarding Augusta, St. Peter teases her, but I think he is also a bit envious of the surety in her belief, the comfort it gives her (as Hats said), which he doesn't have. I think his lecture is also a sort of grappling with the fact that he does not have that comfort, and he verbalizes it. I disagree with him because I do believe that science has added much to our lives, both comforts and amazing discoveries about the way the universe works, but science alone is not adequate for the human soul. The soul is fed by religion and art, which can be expanded with the help of understanding of the universe. Science, religion and art are not necessarily incompatible, in my view. I think physics is proving that more every day.

I am VERY disturbed by Marcellus. He seems not only to be a total control freak, but to name a house after his wife's former fiancee who is now dead is downright cruel. She seems passive about it but has turned bitchy because I think deep down she hurts and doesn't quite know why, since the wealth Marcellus provides is also comfortable and he seems so superficially solicitous. Marcellus attempts to control everyone and everything around him, with flattery and manipulation and making plans for everyone, and appropriation of things that are not his to appropriate. And I find him VERY distasteful. Lillian apparently enjoys being controlled and flattered like that. I don't think St. Peter does.

As for the walled garden, it could symbolize the walls he builds around himself during those enjoyable times in which his creative juices flow. The garden is as lush and cared for as his creativity when it flows. It could also simly be a nostalgia for the Europe that he remembers with such fondness.

Naming houses in my part of the Midwest is only done for "cabins/summer homes" at the lake/river...and often are "cutesy/folksy" types of things...or grand estates in the country.

Rocks are common, yes, and are often piled at the edge of a field being planted. They have, of the last few years, become quite the "in thing" for landscaping of the new huge homes being built. One local story is a farmer who had a nice pile of large rocks at the edge of a field that he was about to plant and someone called and asked if he'd sell them. He was dumbfounded that anybody would want to buy rocks...and threw out a price of $500.00 as a joke. The caller said he'd take them and pick them up for that price. [Farmer said he is considering forgetting corn and beans and going into "rocks" now. .]

We also have some wonderful quarries with beautiful stone that is cut and shipped all over the country.

Stone buildings ~~~~ Quarries in Iowa

jane

I thought that chapter two was a fascinating glimpse into the dynamics of the family. In a mere 10 pages, Cather allows us to look in and see just what's going on with all the players.

When I said earlier that I felt there was so much going on, that was not directly stated, I didn't mean to imply that there was a lot of "hidden meaning" in the text. What I meant is much better stated by Edith Lewis when she says, speaking of Cather:

"I think it is her talk that I remember best. It was not that she talked a great deal. She was never a monologist; and often felt that she enjoyed silence more than conversation. But what ever she said had an evocative quality -- a quality of creating much more than her words actually stated, of summoning up images, suggestions, overtones and undertones of feeling that opened long vistas to one's imagination." from Willa Cather Living:A Personal Record, p.xxxii.

This says it so well that I just had to share with you. And I think it applies as well to her writing.

Here are some things "evoked" from Cather's writing about the players from my standpoint:

1) Lillian- she's critical of her husband. I suspect it's because he no longer pays much attention to her. She seems overly involved in the lives of her sons-in-law. Perhaps she is forced to be now that both her daughters are gone and her husband is no longer attentive.

2) There seems to be quite a rivalry going on between Scott and in Louie. Although it is Scott who was Tom's friend and classmate, it's Louie who is reaping the benefits of Tom's will. Whilst Louie brags about his hinges and latches from Chicago, Scott has just glass- knobbed his entire house.

3) a similar of rivalry is mirrored between Kathleen and Rosamund also as a result of Tom's entry into their lives. The professor seems to favor Kathleen, and aside from the obvious connection between Rosamund and Tom I'm not sure why.



Louis seems to have some sort of strike against him by virtue of being a Jew. And Scott (if he gets the chance) will use that against Louis as to getting into the Country Club. So Scott certainly has in his own agenda and secrets. I'm not entirely sure yet which of these two bothers me most.

The girls to both seemed to love their father very much -- although I'm not sure they make an effort to understand him. But then again this is pretty standard stuff from children of this age, who are still living in their own world and all that revolves around just them.

"SierraRose, how old do you SEE St. Peter as? He does not even have any grandchildren. He's still working. I would not have placed him much above his late 50's. Why do you think his life is over?"

--- Yes, I too see him as in his mid-50s. But we are talking about the "1920s when the life span was not what it is today, so he is on the downward slide, and his life is probably not long enough for another large project. And his age has less to do with what he is feeling than his being tired and feeling the emptiness of having completed a large project and being at loose ends.

"I liked your comment on his having completed one project and being at loose ends. Maybe THAT'S why he insists on keeping the Place Where He Created in case he can do it again."

---Frankly, I often feel exactly the same way, that if I completed a project successfully, the environment for the next project must be exactly the same. Sort of a nostalgic feng shui of creativity I guess you might call it. The drawing board has to be the same, the paint box, my favorite pens and pencils, the lighting, etc. I don't give in to it because often it's impossible to have everything the same, but that's what I would prefer. The place where everything came together is like a talisman.

About Marcellus, am I imagining things, or is he cruel in naming the house after his wife's dead lover? Personally, I can't imagine being married to a man who would do that or even think of doing it. WC may have painted him as a "typical" Jew, but it doesn't matter to me what he is. It's his controlling actions and superficial conversation and materialism I don't care for in the least. Actually I think he's pretty typical of a lot of people in this materialistic world we live in even now.

In fact, I don't much care for Scott either, since he's the one who blackballed Marcellus at the country club, and I think that was a dirty deal. St. Peter must be looking at his sons-in-law and noting how the family dynamics have changed, and not for the better. That often happens when in-laws enter the picture. The family unit becomes something different than what it was. For St.Peter it was once pretty comfortable and routine, and now I get the feeling that it isn't anymore. Another reason to distance himself instead of changing with the flow that he may see as not exactly healthy.

At some point we HAVE TO distance ourselves somewhat from our children. They may marry people we don't particularly like, and do things we disapprove of. We still love them, but we have to learn to "mind our own business" because they are adults. I think St. Peter is doing that andis not allowing himself to get sucked into the new dynamics.

since I get the feeling that there is more to the friction between the two sisters than meets the eye. Could it be that Kathleen also loved Tom but Tom chose Rosamond as his future wife?

Ginny's question of "24. Why does the walled garden seem to irritate everybody?" --- intrigues me. I don't see anybody as being irritated by it. It's just strange to them because it's so unusual and "different" from what is practiced in their neck o' the woods, so they may think it's a bit "uppity". I admire St. Peter for having it his way no matter what the neighbors think. The indirect pressure to conform is fierce in the U.S.A., whereas I think the English in general are much more tolerant of their "eccentrics". The pressures for St.Peter to conform are everywhere, including pressures by his wife and the other members of the family.

A few side notes - ahhh I know it is not Friday but but but by tomorrow I may have forgotten them -

There are so many idiosyncrasies about St. Peter that remind me of my daughter-in-law whose grandmother was from France as St. Peter's grandfather was French Canadian. Now she does not live with disrepair - but frugal - and a sense of style - and gossip about all including her own children, who she loves and the gossip is like the fun of nicknaming a child after their characteristics...

Sally Gale will NOT buy anything unless it is on sale - she sees a blouse, dress, shirt for the boys and likes it, may even try it on but will not buy until it goes on sale. I asked, suppose it sells before it hits the sale rack - answer, that is fine there is always something quite wonderful on the sale rack that will work - and she does make it work - here she is now 45 and she looks 25 keeping her figure and style sense that amazes me.

I too was uncomfortable with all the gossip but soon learned it was not cruel because she also broadcasts the wonders of these boys and her other family members - and those wonders are always her lead to any conversation - it is just during the longer chats and with a smile we hear about the foibles of one or the other.

I realized long ago that style is everything with Sally Gale - not just in clothes but in looks and how you behave and the choice of dog [she has 3 jet black, part lab that bound with energy] - important is who you know [and they do - several nationally known football and baseball players, the girl friends and parents of a couple of the UT football players, along with several country western singers and writers] - her style includes nothing that looks like it will be forever a corner stone - everything is this energetic sense of style is all I can call it.

Now with St. Peter his sense of style seems to become permanent but I think his choosing to work by lantern is more than just being frugal, it is comfortable, known and sets him up as unique when all around he sees his competition using the latest inventions and modern housing - where he is unique and has proven himself with his unique view of the world with his acclaimed series on Spanish History.

My question is why Spanish History - not French [he throws around all these French phrases] not English or even American but Spanish... what is Cather trying to tell us when she chose Spain as the research for her professor?

I'm not sure if it's just me, but I am feeling like some info is coming out that is further along in the book than the first six chapters. And I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, I am trying to be very polite in my request, but I dearly hope that people will try not to leak future information. Thanks!

I agree with Scootz on the great rivalry/jealousy? between the sons-in-law, and I think Lillian enjoys it. Like other women her age I've know, she is overly (to my way of thinking) involved in the lives of her married children. But, maybe that's what mothers-in-law who live close to married children do? Mine didn't, but I gather from other women I talk to that theirs are/do. As Scootz mentioned, there is also the tension between Kathleen and Rosamond.

As Sierrarose said, I, too, wondered if maybe Kathleen had had a crush or been in love with Tom when he and Rosamond got engaged.

I think the Professor loves his daughters. I also think he still loves/cares for Lillian, but they've been long married and are perhaps more into companionship at this stage of their marriage?

jane

oh I do not think it is a crush directly - but indirectly I would agree - a young man filled with enthusiasm and looking fit and handsome must remind her of her own sexuality - she is not yet old therefore, it is easy to think of yourself when you were young and handsome men sought your attention. She likes the attention I am sure and it makes her feel young and attractive again.

I have not read ahead nor have I ever read this book but these first 6 chapters certainly address the rivalry between the son-in-laws - St. Peter has to deal with it and I thought he did a yeoman's job while taking his swim with, oh I forgot his name but the poor one.

Oh, yes, isn't Marcellus "rich" in money because of the inheritance from Tom? I didn't pickup that he was wealthy on his own account.

Oh wow-so many questions-so many answers. Well I have continued to read article affter article on the book, Cather and the times (The roaring twenties).I can answer one of the questions for certain and some with a bit of intuition.

Where does the novel take place? Cather was purposely vague on the place. She incorporated scenery from all five great lakes and their surroundings in her descriptons.

The Times- Two other important American Novels,that found fault with the "wildness" of the times came out the same year. "An American Tragedy" by Theodor Dreiser and "The Great Gatsby" by F. Scott Fitzgerald. The effects of excessive wealth and the importanc of science vs. religion were the talk of the day in the Literary Set.

Cather was the same age as the Professor ,52,and this book was her seventh novel. The professor too, was working on his seventh book. The Professor longs for Tom Outland ot at least thinks of him as perfection. Cather, in her twenties fell in love with a 16 year old girl, Isabelle McClung, with whom she lived for a number of years. Although they parted ways Willa kept up a correspondence with her for the next 40 years. This although she had a life long companion, Edith Lewis, for the next 40 years.

Cather quote:"It is the inexplicable presence of the thing not named, of the overtone divined by the ear, but not heard by it, the verbal mood, the emotional aura of the fact or the thing or the deed, that gives high quality to the novel or drama, as well as to the poetry itself".

Well all that is fact. Now as far as opinions are concerned I don't want to mix the two so will give myself a breather and come back with those.

Judy

Interesting that Judy mentioned The Great Gatsby because Louie reminds me of him. He's throwing expensive things (tasteful of course) at his darling wife, Rosie, and he'll throw around as much money as he can--he's very generous. He's building Rosie a huge new expensive house on property that even back then must have cost something, waterfront property.

Does anyone else remember the scene in Gatsby when Jay Gatsby has Daisy at his huge mansion and he shows her all the shirts he has; maybe some of you saw the movie--he throws them onto the bed, color after color after color.

I see that same exuberance in Louie. He's going to give Rosie emeralds for her birthday.

Scott, on the other hand, makes little money. It would have been expensive for him to get glass doorknobs for their little bungalow. And notice that it is called a bungalow which says a lot about how small it is. Scott is a journalist.

Maryal

My book was late in arriving and I was ill for two weeks when I first returned there were 78 posts and when I stopped reading I still had 40+ and today only 11!! So I did get through them all and my mind is whirling with the suggestions, observations and I still have to read the book But first I am going to my local green market and come home with a midwestern meal . Tomato sandwiches Not BLT's but buttered white bread, sliced tomatoes , salt.pepper and lemondade and corn on the cob ( I know it isnt ripe in the midwest but Florida has it and my market has some) Illinois wasnt called the Prairie state for nothing Peoria was as far north we traveled and then all the way South to Cape Giraudeau and in my mind it was miles and miles of FLAT lands ..farmhouses were white and barns were red and and the kitchen garden was planted with the tomatoes, beans, green and lima,squash, leaf lettuce , green onions I am trying to remember what my relatives grew since when we arrived my job was to pick the vegetables for the meals.And somewhere along that southern route I recall oilrigs with the steady pumps like huge alien arms and above the horizon in the dusk the flames of the natural gas leaping and dancing in the night. No walled gardens and no cute names for the farms they were just a number on the rural routes. Ah back when I have read all 6 chapters and mulled all the questions and suggestions and ideas in my mind.. take care . anna

Walled gardens.. Think of Charleston and the side walled gardens.. or Biltmore which has a pretty well known walled garden..Or Versaii.. Very formal, usually trees and green stuff, no exuberant flowers, but disciplined ones. That is what makes he wonder if the professor is only confortable with disciplined reactions to life. I am eager to continue to find out about Tom.. He seems to have been so central to all of this. Thus far I am intrigued with the two girls and hope to find out more about them. They seem to love their father, but sometimes that sort of thing is deceptive. I think the french is ordinary conversation is pretentious.. But then Dorothy Sayers drove me nuts with h er use of other languages in her detective stories.. Unless the other person is a french speaker, it seems to be very put downable.( I know, not a word, but a feeling)

OK became curious about this "French" walled garden idea - looks like there are many when you Google 'walled gardens France' however this to me was a wonderful description of the walled garden as it was originally intended -

First here is a painting of the walled garden associated with the famous French poem Roman de la Rose

The walled garden played an important symbolic role in medieval art and literature, both religious and secular. Christians saw the enclosed garden - in Latin, the 'hortus conclusus' – as a symbol of the perpetual virginity of Christ’s mother, Mary. The metaphor derived from a verse in the biblical 'Song of Solomon': "A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed."

The secular equivalent was the ‘hortus delicarium’, the garden of pleasure. It too was an enclosed space protected from the rigours of everyday life, a place where the wealthy, particularly women, could enjoy cultural amusement and intellectual inspiration.

Both gardens usually had flower-strewn lawns, sometimes called 'strews', rather than beds of flowers. The grass was often raised to form turf seating. Trellises with grape vines and climbing roses were popular, and many gardens had decorative fountains or fish pools at their centre.

Tree branches were trained to form shady arbours where ladies could enjoy the air without fear of compromising their fashionably pale complexions by exposure to the sun. Tanned skin was the sign of the labouring classes: wealthy women aspired to having skin as pale as alabaster.

All these features appear in the idealised garden of the 'Roman de la Rose', which is planted with date palms and spice trees, as well as peaches, quinces, cherries and nuts. It's carpeted with flowers of every colour and season, and inhabited by gentle creatures of the forest: the hart, rabbit and squirrel – each having symbolic associations with femininity or fertility.

From European manuscripts - Roman de la Rose

Ginny asked the question a dozen posts ago, and now I see Stephanie make an observation on the use of French. I believe I've found a good answer to that in a book I've just put down. It illustrates the convenience of knowing the apt French phrase for every occasion. After all the French were for centuries the arbiters in matters of taste and manners, perfumes, etc. With French you can perfume anything. In this case to condone dubious behavior in high society. It's from Leo Tolstoy's The Death of Ivan Ilyich:

'In the provinces he had an affair with a lady who made advances to the elegant young lawyer (himself), and there was also a milliner; and there were carousals with aide-de-campes who visited the district, and after-supper visits to a certain outlying street of doubtful reputation; and there was too some obsequiousness to his chief and even to his chier's wife, but all this was done with such a tone of good breeding that no hard names could be applied to it. It all came under the heading of the French saying: Il faut que jeunesse se passe'. IT WAS ALL DONE WITH CLEAN HANDS, IN CLEAN LINEN, WITH FRENCH PHRASES, AND ABOVE ALL AMONG PEOPLE OF THE BEST SOCIETY AND CONSEQUENTLY WITH THE APPROVAL OF PEOPLE OF RANK.'

The prettiest walled garden I've ever seen was in Charleston. I was enjoying a walk and stopped to admire the landscaping that set off a fine old house, when the owner drove up, saw what I was doing, and invited me to see all of it. Beautiful, and made for enjoyment.

Or was it that very pretty garden behind the B&B in England, with its spectacular, overgrown wall. Or that even more spectacular wall at the bottom of a garden in Wales. Shucks, it was art for Godfrey.

Of course you're seeing things, Mal. We all are. It's part of Cather's style. What can one say about the first paragraph of Chapter 6? Now that's both evocative and provocative.

'The red-gold sunlight lay in bright puddles on the thick blue carpet.'

'It struck him that the seasons sometimes gain by being brought into the house.'

'The hand, fastidious and bold, which selected and placed - it was that which made the difference.'

This is Godfrey looking into the NEW house. But this 'garden' is Lillian's doing, is it not?

The professor's garden and his wanting to be near the lake when he accepted a job in Hamilton indirectly makes him want to be closer to the earth. In my opinion this is what attracted him to Tom Outland. Not Outland's scientific discovery and the subsequent monetary fortune, but rather that Outland worked with his hands in the earth just as the professor on a smaller scale worked in his garden.

Chapter 5: "...Science hasn't given us any new amazements, except of the superficial kind we get from witnessing dexterity and sleight of hand...Art and religion (they are the same thing, in the end, of course) have given man the only happiness he has ever had..."

I can't help but wonder if this lecture was a left-sided look at the Scopes Monkey Trial:

March 13, 1925: Scopes Trial: A law in Tennessee prohibits the teaching of evolution.

May 5, 1925: biology teacher John Scopes is arrested for teaching Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution.

May 25, 1925:John T. Scopes is indicted for teaching Darwin's theory of Evolution.

July 10, 1925: the so-called "Monkey Trial" begins with John T. Scopes accused of violating the Tennessee law

July 21, 1925: high school biology teacher John T. Scopes is found guilty of teaching evolution in class and fined $100.

"...You might tell me next week, Miller, what you think science has done for us, besides making us very comfortable."

Since the professor's lecture was in September, his words might be in reference of what happened earlier in the year in July in Dayton, Tenneessee.

Even if the book was published in 1925, I'm sure that evolution had been discussed since Darwin published his "Origins of Species" in 1859.

How do you supose Cather felt about the study of evolution? Someone in this discussion said she was very religious. Perhaps this lecture is a reflection of her own thoughts of science vs. religion.

I agree with the idea someone brought up that both girls were in love with Tom and he chose Rose. Therefore Kathleen is not only jealous of Rosies wealth but that she was not the chosen one. But Tom had the professor enthralled as well. What a guy ! The walled garden was important because it is the place where Tom and Godfrey sat while getting to "know" each other:inuendos intended. The whole second part of the book is devoted to Tom so much will be revealed when we read those chapters.

Science does continually provide new amazements: since 1925-movies in color, that talk to us,cell phones, TV, Medical discoveries, and the computer and the Internet on which we are enjoying this great discussion.

Godfry longs for a past,a simpler life but one that is idealised only in his mind. He looks at Augusta, the religous,Catholic seamstress who is unmarried and uninformed ("Mary Magdalene wrote the Magnificat"). He sees her as unblemished and the personification of goodness. However if all the world followed in Augustas ways there would be no children.

I think we should be careful in judging Lillian. We do not know what she has to put up with . Her husband is definitely cut off from her at this point and moving more into the world in his head.Thats not a pleasant experience for any wife.

Judy

Who are the strongest characters? I've not read beyond chapter 6 and am at this point taking most things at face value, although with so many interesting theories, that's becoming a little hard to do. I'd like to say the professor is the strongest, but it really may be Tom OUtland. He has certainly been the catalyst for much of what has happened so far. OK, the professor is my favorite. I like him because he seems to have common sense, is down to earth, doesn't take himself too seriously. I like the way he joshes with Augusta, although she's not sure if he's serious or not. He has sympathy for Scott, who's too good for his work. His former students must have thought highly of him -- they took it upon themselves to save his academic department for him when another professor and regent tried to demolish it. He cares deeply for his daughters; his wife probably irritates him. She doesn't impress me -- seems a woman of her place and time -- a "what-will-the-neighbors think, we-must-maintain-our-standards" type of person. And one who plays up too much to her sons-in-law.

I don't find Scott offensive. Louie Marcellus is another story and I think the professor sums him up well when he says (about Louie) "If he were [sensitive] he couldn't pick up a dinner party and walk off with it, as he almost always does." He seems to have claimed Tom Outland as his own. Plus he plays up to his mother-in-law too much. Puts down his brother-in-law. I'd blackball him too, if I were Scott.

Re: naming houses in the Midwest -- in my Wisconsin hometown the only named home I can think of is Wingspread, built in 1937 by Frank Lloyd Wright for H.F. Johnson (S.C. Johnson Co.), now a conference center. What is probably more common, and not just in the midwest, is to refer to a house by the name of its builder or first owner, no matter how many subsequent owners.

For (almost) Friday -- I'm really curious about St. Peter's work -- Spanish Adventurers -- just what was his "experiment" that finally began to interest scholars in the fourth and later volumes?

Re the question: Is Tom Outland the "turquoise" of the epigraph?
All will be revealed further into the book!
I will not give anything away by saying the turquoise is just that: a turquoise stone set into an interesting setting.
It is a real piece to wear, not a person.
Tom Outland is a strong character, not someone who needs to be represented by a gem-stone.

I also am curious about the books about the Spanish Adventurers by the professor. What could be different about history books? Maybe this is covered later in the book. I think Lillian is simply a good wife of that era. I get the feeling thus far of hollow, but I do wonder if that is simply Cather not caring much for the character and using her as a shell.

Wow, Ginny- that was ME who asked about negative comforts. I dont think anyone knows the answer. To me, it's an oxymoron and makes no sense. Like you, it puts me in misery. LOL I'm gonna try to repress the fact that Cather ever said it.

Oh yeah- that DON'T KNOCK thing- I am so glad you mentioned that. I didn't get the joke either. Hope someone can enlighten us.

Isn't a busmman's holiday where you do more of what you normally do, so it's not really a holiday? Sort of like a teacher going to a library as their vacation? I think his saying it to the ladies just meant not much of a holiday for them. (?)

Had no idea there was some mystery to Godfrey's volumes. I must have missed that. Better go back and rereread- NOT.

I didn't find the dialect conversation particularly well done, but then who the heck am I to judge? No Pulitzers in mypossession. I am mad at her about the negative comforts thing though. (it never happened, it never happened, it never happened)

I'm skimming the first 6 chapters and commenting on remaining things I haven't mentioned to tie up this first bit of reading.

I loved this from p.47....Rosamund comes to ask her father to let her build a "little study" for him at the back of her new home. Godfrey says,

" Oh thank you, Rosamund. Its most awfully nice if you to think of it. But keep it just an idea -- it's better so. Lots of things are."

Truer words have never been spoken.

It's very interesting to me to know that Tom had such a profound effect on the professor. Yet the Professor is not named in the will. Didn't anyone else think that was kind of curious? And who the heck is this Rodney Blake? Now that's a bit of foreshadowing too.

In two places, the professor admits to himself that he does not understand his daughters, nor his wife. I found that pretty telling.

I had never really thought about art and religion being the same thing- and I don't think we're meant to take that literally -- but I suppose that as a means of understanding our place in the world and expressing it, both have a purpose.

I love the beginning of Chapter six (which dear Jonathan has already mentioned). And I found myself reading and rereading it, just to savor the language and the beautiful images that it evoked. I actually "stood" and looked into that house myself, seeing all those marvelous colors, if you know what I mean.

Cather must have a thing for hands. Has anyone noticed how many times she mentions them? Thus far I have seen a description of several characters' hands. Wonder what that's all about.

I took the "negative comforts" to mean things he used that were substandard. He talks about the flaky, rusty old stove, but he didn't replace it. It was a "negative comfort" and by "neglecting" it...i.e., not bothering with it, he was able to afford those things he really wanted. I gather in the days there in the old house, before the wealth came, that things were a bit tight financially, and so some things you didn't have as brand new, first class. He saved the money that would have been spent on a new stove in the attic for something he really wanted.

"But he had been able to get on only by neglecting negative comforts." and then a sentence or two later... "If a thing gave him delight, he got it, if he sold his shirt for it. By doing without many so-called necessities he had managed to have his luxuries."

The stove didn't "give him delight"..it just kept him warm and he wasn't enamored of it...so it "did the job" just fine.

I'm not sure I'm explaining very well. It's like some people love big, new, latest cars...and others view them as transportation and anything that does the job is fine. One of our differences among people is the view between "necessities/needs" and "luxuries/wants." You don't bother ("neglect") about the necessities that do their job, regardless of how they look, so you can afford the "wants/luxuries."

jane

Jane, What a good explanation.
Keeping an old car is a similar example.
Someone wrote about having kept an old Toyota Camry until over 250,000 miles; he just could not junk it.
That was probably in an op-ed piece in the newspaper earlier this week.
Wouldn't that be a similar "comfort"?

Jane, your view helps me too. "Negative comforts" are "substandard." For example, in the old house there is a tub. The tub does not have a porcelain finish. The tub is tin. St. Peter keeps painting the tub to give it a porcelain finish. It never happens. The tub is what it is, tin.

I think the Professor could well afford any necessity and luxuries too. This story happens in the twenties. Did it happen before the Depression years? There isn't a reason in the world why St. Peter should put up with substandard conditions in the house.

Some men can not do home repairs. St. Peter can do repairs. He owns the tools. "He had a deft hand with tools, he could easily have fixed them, but there were always so many things to fix, and there was not time enough to go around." Maybe there are "wobbly stair treads, creaky boards" because St. Peter is a procrastinator. Come to think of it most men have this problem. You have to say hang this picture a hundred times. On the hundred first time the picture might get hung.

Then again, St. Peter's willingness to put up with "negative comforts" might put his mind at ease. In other words, for some reason, is he enjoying the state of martyrdom or penance? If so, why?

In this one area, Lillian has her ducks in a row. If you can afford it, if it is available, then, why not enjoy it? These are Lillian's thoughts. "If your country has contributed one thing, at least, to civilization, why not have it?" Now that makes sense to me.

Mippy: Sure, it could be. A good example.

Mal: I hadn't thought of that view of negative comfort...electricity and modern conveniences and how he viewed that.

Hats: Yes, I'd forgotten about the tin tub. Another good example.

jane

I have so many questions. This is one question. I have read "Macbeth." All I remember is the constant hand washing and blood. Anyway, what does this mean?

"It was in those very years that he was beginning his great work; when the desire to do it and the difficulties attending such a project strove together in his mind like Macbeth's two spent swimmers---"

Who are "the two spent swimmers?"

I also have been thinking of the Turquoise and Silver. St. Peter did spend time in the Southwest. Is it possible that the Turquoise and Silver is not about a person but about the people or land of the Southwest?

"the two Sabbatical years when he was in Spain studying records, two summers in the South-west on the trail of his adventurers, another in Old Mexico, dashes to France to see his foster-brothers."

I have read six chapters. Did I miss the foster-brothers?

Barbara or someone what does turquoise and silver symbolize? I don't want to Google. It's easy, if you don't know what you are doing, to google the wrong information. Why is the silver described as "dull?"

Doesn't that make everything clear? Scott and his father-in-law complement each other. Perhaps the professor should read more of his son-in-law's uplift pieces. Isnt' the joke in the Englishman's thinking that the 'Don't Knock' had something to do with the door, when all Scott means by it is to remain positive. It's his motto.

I can't begin to tell you how much sleep I've lost over the problem that Godfrey has with negative comforts. Any kind of comfort. Scrawler has just quoted that bit from the 'lecture':

"...You might tell me next week, Miller, what you think science has done for us, besides making us very comfortable."

Thanks, Jane, for taking the bull by the horn on this one. Cather doesn't make it too easy for us on this one. Somehow, and now I'm standing on the shoulders of all who have commented on 'negative comforts', this reflects some kind of struggle in the professor's mind, during all the years that he worked away at his double life - teaching, and writing his masterpiece on Spanish 'adventures' in the New World.

That would supply an answer to Hat's question about the metaphor from MACBETH, the two spent swimmers, being applied to the professor's difficult times. He has been tremendously committed to his goals, and looking back now, it seems to him he was constantly torn between his intense desire to follow his thoughts to the conclusion of his vision of the Spanish adventure, and the difficulties that stood in his way to completing his work. Enter the idea, or rationalization of negative comforts. Comforts that had a negative effect on his absorption in his work. Playing with the kids must have been one of these. He didn't dare go downstairs for more fuel for his lamp, lest he lose valuable time better spent on his book.

I heard a very curious thing on Wednesday. I spent the afternoon with my 7-year old granddaughter. We had a wonderful time together, which included a whole hour poking about along the bank of a neighborhood creek, with our sticks. Afterwards, walking home, she suddenly said, thinking aloud, like the professor, 'my Daddy never has time for this'. I had to assure her that dads are far busier then grandads.

It's not that St. Peter prefers discomforts, but some comforts are not what they seem. On the other hand, it surprises me that he never knocks the artificial, perhaps negative comforts of religion. The professor has a good mind, but there comes a time in life...well, back to the book.

I find Louie's sudden interest in the professor's lectures curious. He wants to hear for himself. First the lectures in Chicago, and then later the upcoming lectures in Boston. Does he want to hear more about the sins committed in eating, or has Lillian confided in him her concerns about her husband's state of mind?

Ginny - Me again! Sorry have been too busy to think about Cather this week and then I come in tonight to catch up and find 122 posts waiting for me - WOW !!! Have only read a few so far but wanted to let you know that I'm still here.

I noticed a few mentions of Henry James and Cather being similar - I think Jamesian prose is much denser and the action is very understated but then every single WORD of Cather is loaded - simply dripping with underlying and hidden meanings- so maybe there is a similarity there. Will have to think about it some more.

I guess by now everyone has said everything about this first part - that empty? house, the attic, the dress forms, the lake from the window, the Professor, - his name troubles me,- how can he be Godfrey (Godless?) and St Peter together? Lillian seems dissatisfied and the sons-in-law somewhat unsatisfactory - Louie UGH !! he is a manipulator I think. The daughters are not friends - Why Not? And then there is the walled garden...

As you see lots of catching up for me this weekend - now to read some more posts...

I think Mal and Jane hit the nail right on the head. The professor got by without a lot of new fangled things like "electricity." Like Mal I think of electricity as a "negative comfort." Its expensive now, but I can imagine it was even more expensive in the 1920s. America was very prosperous during the 1920s until the CRASH and they spent MONEY! Money they probably should have kept in a safe place.

I can remember visiting my father-in-law in the 1960s in rural New Mexico and they were just making it mandantory that everyone had to use electricity to light their homes. My father-in-law was an old railroad man and he didn't appreciate this new fangled negative comfort.

Part of the richness of being able to do with your life what you most desire is having to do without many comforts in order achieve your desires.

I see the professor as "belonging" to the old house and the old house "belonging" to the professor. Not in the sense that the professor owns the house because he dosen't but that they fit well together like a tight-fitting glove. Yes, it has its tin bath tub and he works by oil lamp, but this is really what the professor wants.

On the other hand the professor appreciates his big closet in the new house where he doesn't have to drape his two or more jackets over mo one to a hanger. And Lillian does point out that he does deserve his own room with his own bathroom. The point here is he deserves it, but does he really want it.

It reminds me of when I was first married and all we could afford was a one-bedroom walk-up. Perhaps it was the fact that we had "just married" but I've never known any other place where I was more happy than in that ran-down dinky apartment.

Than we have Marsellus's Outland. "...We have a magnificent site; primeval forest behind us and the lake in front, with our own beach...a Norwegian manor house, very harmonious with its setting, just the right thing for rugged pine woods and high headlands." But to me a Norwegian manor house is a "negative comfort." Something one buys because they have money.

The only place I know I could find real happiness is in the Professor's old house - full of memories and less creature comforts. To me old houses like this are full of character and take on a personality all there own.

Turquoise is the primary stone for Aquarius, it is an ancient symbol of the sky, a pledge of adoration, stone of spiritual attunement, cleansing, protection and prosperity, good fortune and success.

Turquoise strengthens the user against fear of the unknown by enhancing one’s feelings of trust, kindness, wisdom and understanding. It can ward off strong negativity and protect from the evil eye, reptile bites and diseases of the eye.

The Navajo culture of New Mexico and Arizona utilized Turquoise in their rain ceremonies, which required the tossing of the stone into a river. The Navajo believe that a piece of Turquoise is actually a piece of the sky that has fallen to Earth. Estsanatlehi is the turquoise-sky goddess in Navajo mythology.

The Apache felt that Turquoise combined the powers of the sky and the sea to help hunters and warriors aim accurately. The Zuni say that Turquoise could protect them from demons.

Silver: the moon, the feminine nature of energy, which is more passive and less assertive. Virginity, the feminine aspect with gold as the masculine, affections purified, Chastity, purity, eloquence. Silver gifts are symbolic of the 25th wedding anniversary.

Christian legend: Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus for 30 Silver coins. The relics of Saints were often made with Silver. Rosaries and crosses have also been made from Silver throughout Christian history. Roman Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran Chalices must be made of Gold, Silver or Vermeil for their rites.

The Navajo tribes began working Silver (learned from Mexican artists) in the mid 1850s and passed their skills onto the Zuni tribes by the 1870s. There were major discoveries of Silver in Nevada, Colorado and Utah in the 1860s through the 1890s. The modern center of fine Silverwork is still the city of Taxco in Mexico. [St. Peter spent time on his research in Mexico]

Thanks so very much to all of you who chimed in about negative comforts. I think I have a handle on it now. (Although I'm stubborn, dang it, ;)and still don't like the phraseology.)

Thanks so very much to all of you who chimed in about negative comforts. I think I have a handle on it now. (Although I'm stubborn, dang it, and still don't like the phraseology.)

Hats--I too noticed the reference to Macbeth's two spent swimmers. And since recently reading the play because it was the fall production at school and my classes were reading it, I was able to remember--maybe--that it came from toward the beginning of the play.

I looked it up and it does. It's in Act 1:2.

Also found a reference on the internet--and I apologize for no citation; forgot to put it down--an explanation for the image.

"The conflict between the "merciless Macdonald" (l.9) and the troops loyal to the king stood "doubtful." How doubtful? "As two spent swimmers that do cling together/ And choke their art" (1.2.8-9). Rather than just saying that the sides were equally matched, or that each had unsuccessfully tried to secure advantage over the other, Shakespeare uses an image from swimming (the story of Cassius and Julius Caesar's Tiber River swimming contest might form the background for this image--JC 1.2), but one which captures the tension and violence of exhausted swimmers involved in a death struggle.

The swimmers are "spent" and they "choke their art." Not only is their skill ("their art") compromised, but the means by which it is hindered is through "choking" each other. Both are in danger of sinking and drowning as they wear themselves out and "choke" each other.

As applied to the professor--back when he was just starting his life's work, the Spanish History, he was also raising a young family and teaching. A time in a professor's life that is most difficult. One has to work hard in order to achieve tenure; one doesn't have much money. So St. Peter's idea to start a great work might be impossible given the pressures of working at his career (not to mention maintaining his family). The two ideas: working very hard at the college and beginning a project of his own are like the two swimmers in Macbeth. Both ideas might come to nothing (might drown each other) and then he would have nothing.

In Macbeth, the two spent swimmers are themselves a metaphor for two equally matched armies.

Have I gone on long enough?

Maryal

jane--Your explanation of "negative comforts" works for me. I read the words just as you did in the context of the professor and his skrimping in order to have enough money (my guess is Lillian and the girls always needing clothes, not to mention a seamstress and other things) for things that were important.

What's important to him, what makes him happy (and thus "comfortable") is his work. He doesn't mind going without, making do with less than adequate appliances, if he can afford to do other things.

He also skrimps and saves by doing so many repairs around the house. I don't think the problem is that he procrastinates--I get the sense that he works hard most of the time, one way or another--but rather that saving pennies in order to have them accumulate into pounds has become habitual. It's just the way it is. Money doesn't mean much to him. However, it means a good deal to Lillian.

Remember that he has a formal study/library downstairs complete with bookcases and probably good lighting. But he can't concentrate there. He finds the attic room perfect--and it's away from the noise of family.

Anyway, Jane explains what I was working on putting into words much better than I could. Thank you, Jane.

~Maryal

Deems and Barbara, thank you.

Mal, I have a better understanding of "negative comforts." I didn't add your name along with Jane's name. Those two words will stay with me for a long time.

Great information Deems - brings the picture home on the swimming --

Negative Comforts

Anthony Trollope wrote in "The Golden Lion of Grandpere":

"Nothing was said to Marie about her sins on that afternoon after her uncle had started on his journey. Everything in the hotel was blank, and sad, and gloomy: but there was, at any rate, the NEGATIVE COMFORT of silence, and Marie was allowed to go about the house and do her work without rebuke".

I think Cather also meant that nothingness was a comfort sometime. It was nothing but still a comfort because the opposite would be something that was negative without the comfort.

Judy

Judy,

This makes sense to me. Good old Trollope! The "negative comfort of silence" makes perfect sense to me. Thank you, Judy. I can die happy now.

How did you ever find that?

Whew! I finally read all of the posts for this week. SO INTERESTING! I saw so many ideas that I hadn't thought of when I read the first 6 chapters. Here are a few of my thoughts.

I was so glad Barbara brought up how St. Peter was crucified. From the first when I saw the professor's name I thought of St. Peter and his story - disciple of Jesus, denied him at a crucial moment, then carried on Jesus' work, was really the head of the budding Christian church, martyred on the cross. I'm anticipating we'll see St. Peter martyred. Is Tom Outland - killed in WWI - some sort of Christ figure? The relationship between Tom and the Prof. and Lillian is so intriguing.

I find Lillian very manipulative as well as a hideous snob. I thought it was interesting how she seems to have pushed Kathleen into the marriage with Scott, surprising the Prof., because the Prof. didn't think Scott was good enough for Kathleen. What was that all about? Why did Lillian do it? What was going on between Kathleen, Tom, and Rosamond?

I thought a very interesting statement about Lillian was: “What she had was a richly endowed nature that responded strongly to life and art, and very vehement likes and dislikes which were often quite out of all proportion to the trivial object or person that aroused them."

I did not feel at all that the Prof was jealous of Lillian's relationship with her sons-in-law. He seemed more amused by it. I think it is indicative of her manipulative behavior, attempting to use sex appeal to get something she wants.

Interesting that the Prof thought Rosamond was like Lillian’s “2nd self.”

I thought the key reason the Prof. needed his attic study was because of the window view of the distant Lake Michigan. The Lake is life to him as was mentioned by others. He needed this room so much that he rented the entire house for a year (?) - without telling his wife about it - just to be able to use the room really.

Speaking of the Prof and water....wasn't it so odd to see him wearing that strange swimming helmet when he went for his swim with Scott at the beach the Prof had bought? I can't picture it. The expert swimmer and he wears something like that.

The tableau thing reminded me of Emma Hamilton, Lord Nelson's mistress. She participated in many tableaus and was quite well-known for it.

The Prof was extremely critical. He, too, was a snob. Interesting that he had no friends for so long at the school. "St. Peter had had no friend in Hamilton of whom Lillian could possibly be jealous until Tom Outland came along." He didn't fit in? Too critical of others? Expectations too high? He seemed quite unhappy at the school. Why did he stay there so long? Regarding his rival Langtry, interesting how Prof thought, “Couldn't Langtry see it was a draw, that they had both been beaten?”

Great additions, Marni.

Yes, the red helmet swimming was odd. I just thought it may have been something from Cather's experience. (?)

There's a lot we don't know yet about the dynamics here. Wasn't it stated that Lillian pushed Kathleen's marriage FOR Rosamund? is that why some of you think Kathleen was in love with Tom, too?

Here is an interesting link about how Cather came to have that window in the PH. Also some pictures of Mesa Verde which figure in Tom's story with an excerpt at the bottom. I dont think that spoils anything, but if you do, just don't read that part after the canyon pics.

Cather/Art/Professor's House

I wanted to mention one other thing that I notice to that hasn't been mentioned as yet.

On page 27 when all the family is together with the English visitor, Lillian thinks the following:

"Scott, she saw was going to be sulky because Sir Edgar and Marsellus were talking about things beyond his little circle of interest. she made no effort to draw him into the conversation, but let him prowl like a restless leopard among the books."

Well, that seems pretty mean-spirited to me. She sees that Scott is uncomfortable, you intentionally, she makes no effort to ease his discomfort. Nice!

A few times here, I have seen posts alluding to the fact that there are may have been something sexual between the professor and Tom? I'm just curious -- what in the first six chapters has given this impression?

To read the first 6 chapters because all of the posts gave me ideas of what to look for. Helped me to define what I felt ..first I like the professor.. He cares about his family and certainly felt he had found in Lillian the right person since he was anxious to marry. He loved his daughters too ..to me he hesitated to go downstairs for something he needed for his writing because then he became involved with the family But I think he enjoyed that he just felt this need to continue with his work. The dress forms he called "his ladies" they were there and over the years he saw the changes in the way his family dressed, especially his daughters, I suspect he felt the dress forms reminded him when he was the only man in his daughters lives, There is a sadness ( I know I have felt it ) when your children do what you wanted them to do , grow up and be their own person) but you miss the child who thought you knew everything.

He made time for his family, cared about them, He wanted to be a good professor not just someone who said something and let it go >.I see him wanting his students to think ..to care.

And I can see why the old place was the place for him Yes he liked the bath and his closets in the new place but if he had never written the books and earned money to build the new house he would have been content.

When he speaks about new inventions with a rather negative voice I understand him well, I love my computer and know how poor my life now would be without the contacts I make here. But there is a part of me that longs for the time without airconditioning and television and other modern inventions .for then we sat outdoors in the summer and KNEW our neighbors for blocks around. We read books and played games as a family, Had long conversations with each other, My children had that because both my husband and I gave it to them However I see a different scene with my grandchildren, True their mothers work, they are professionals and I would not want them to give up what they worked for but it makes a difference My grandchildren have been cared for by others, Even the little ones are into mechanical things . They are very good with all of these battery operated toys, And the homes look like an addition to Toys r us ..And if they arent playing with these things they are busy from the youngest playing little league baseball , football etc. They are rushing to adulthood and are going to miss real childhood, So I see St Peter looking back to when the girls were young Lillian on the other hand was anxious in my opinion for the girls to marry and she prefers Louie whom annoys me.

Home is where the heart is and for the professor the old house is home..Now I am ready to pursue the next chapters But perhaps I will wait and see what questions everyone proposes so I can read thinking about them. anna And I loved the explanation of negative comforts GOOD thinking Jane Was reminded of my mothers sewing machine, A treadle non electric and my fancy one , I use it because I enjoy sewing but it doesnt sing like my mothers old machine.

I just started reading, but have to say bumping into this discussion is no accident. I just spent some days copying the memoirs of my Grandfather, a former professor at Lehigh University, who summered on Lake Michigan and had a study similar to the professor in the book. My Grandfather was also a complicated man. I can't really comment on similarities yet, having only finished the first chapter! I'll try not to trail behind too far, but gardening right now is a must in Oregon or there will be no harvest! One thing I learned 28 years ago when I moved here is to make hay while the sun shines....you can never predict tomorrow with the weather.

I have been busy preparing for the second week, but did want to chime in about the professor and the old house. It seems to me that he clings to where he was excited and happy and producing, what he regards as his life work. The upstairs study is where the eight books were written and I believe that was his happiest time.

I'll have to try to find some information on this item that the professor wears while taking his swims in Lake Michigan.

Isn't it just a red rubber cap that he has bought in Europe? I imagined something like the Speedo latex caps we have now, only rubber.

Inside information from a swimmer: Caps are worn to keep the head warmer, or rather to prevent heat from escaping from the head so quickly. Lake Michigan is quite cold, even in midsummer when you get out far enough to swim. If the professor were hopping about in the shallows, the cap wouldn't make any sense, but the long distance swimmer covers the head.

Now to go see if I can find a picture or something.

~Maryal

When I was a kid we all wore rubber swim caps - men, women and children - kept the hair out of your face - it wasn't till WWII that men wore their hair so short - no it was not long like during the hippie years but the front hair [maybe called top hair?] was combed with a wave or it was parted in the middle - as to keeping the head warm - could be - as a Kid I only knew that you wore a swim cap when you took a swim but not while simply playing around in the water.

In fact if I remember correctly it was not too many years ago when men racing on the Olympic team wore swim caps - I believe the women still do wear them.

Oh yes, they had a strap that went under the chin so they did seem like a helmet.

Click on Scootz to see what Colby and I will be doing this aft. No helmets for us.

hahahaha great - is it in the high 90s where you are?

I had planned on putting some new bushes in the ground but it looks like I need to wait till after 7 when it cools down just a bit - the hottest part of our day is about 4:30 to 6: but it is already at 90 and I just had too many other things to do this morning. Thank goodness I had a young man dig holes for me the other day.

This will be a good afternoon to get caught up on some reading... I may even go ahead and get ready for next week by reading the next group of chapters.

Anna I know what you mean - there is always something we give up with each modern convenience - I know early this week we had this incredible cool day with a breeze that knocked your sox off - more like the end of October around here - well I washed and hung on the line my comforter and all my pillows and all the linen on my bed - even enjoyed a cup of wonderful Godiva coffee in the sun and wind - I was so full of the day with no appointments till late afternoon. Yesterday, I was sharing this story - again - with the gal at a Title company who looked startled and said it in a less than flattering tone how we used to hang out our wash - she obviously sees that activity as a dated old fashioned bury the idea activity and I still get joy at seeing a line full of sheets waving in the wind.

In fact I've been reading a few landscaping books here of late and they all talk about screening the line of wash - I am about to use my line more and more - I just like seeing the clothes hanging and do not want to screen them from view. There is such a sense of satisfaction to me that I am the master of cleaning this house and not a bunch of machines. What was the expression comfortable neglect - well I also have the bug about some things...

Other questions:

---

By the way, why did Marsellus first announce the naming of the house which we have seen from Jane to be unusual, to Sir Edgar first rather than privately to the family?

Deems made a point about the doorknobs, too, she said,

Scott, on the other hand, makes little money. It would have been expensive o him to get glass doorknobs for their little bungalow. And notice that it is called a bungalow which says a lot about how small it is. Scott is a journalist.

Yes and Scott writes positive little pieces, too.





Did you notice as Scootz did that the Professor was NOT in the will? (Did you also notice her tag line, love that and the bit about the hands, good job there).

Marni noticed that ST. Peter said that Rosamond was like a 2nd Lilllian.

I notice his reflections too, most of you have found him a loving father. I am seeing this, beginning of chapter 2:

Nearly everyone considered Rosamond brilliantly beautiful. Her father, though we was very proud of her demurred from the general opinion. He thought her too tall, with a rather awkward carriage. She stooped a trifle, and was wide in the hips and shoulders. She had, he sometimes remarked to her mother, exactly the wide femur and flat shoulder-blade of his old slab-sides Kanuck grandfathers. For a tree-hewer they were an asset. But St. Peter was very critical . Most people saw only Rosamond's smooth black hair and white throat and the red of her curved lips that was like the duskiness of dark, heavy-scented roses.

Good thing she has her old dad, huh? Yeah boy. Everybody else is fooled. Too TALL? Awkward? Stooped? Wide in the hips and shoulders? Tree hewer?

You can HAVE St. Peter, Guys.

And which daughter DOES he prefer? Kathleen. Why? What does it mean to say " her figure in profile, he used to tell her, looked just like an interrogation point."

Her father remarked that she looked like a Question mark when she was in profile?

Er… neither of these girls seems to have much posture right? One is stooped and one looks like a question mark??

And how do we know this? THESE remarks come from dear old dad. NOT the all seeing narrator or anybody else, in fact we are told that EVERYBODY thinks Rosamond is pretty.

But St. Peter was very critical Faugh.

You can have St. Peter. As a Dad I have noooo problem knowing why he's in that attic. And now I am not having TOO much problem seeing where Lillian's bitterness is coming from.

But perhaps you see him differently? Perhaps you read these remarks differently? God forbid he'd have had a truly ugly child.

What are your thoughts on THIS one?

---

And finally, picking up loose ends as we go this weekend, what is meant in the beginning of Chapter 3 when it says, "There was no way out; they would meet at compt."

And there are three more chapters of unanswered questions left for tomorrow unless you beat us to it and mention them here or anything else first!!!

Barbara- It was 98 here yesterday. This'll be my first go in the pool this year. Gotta get my joints oiled and moving! LOL I hear you on the garden tasks, Have some weeding to do in front and need to get out there early in the a.m. or it won't get done- ever!

Compt- looked that one up and I couldn't find anything that looked like it applied excpet "reckoning". I thought maybe it meant a time of day. (?)

Busman's holiday- yes, as far as I can figure out Scott and Lillian DID hear his lectures often.

Our first week (I know it's not over yet) has been amazing. Every person has so much to add. Thank you all.

Ginny, Click on my screenname? Is that what you mean? I changed my picture. Not actually a link, just meant my name.

Ginny--Click on Scootz's name and you will see the photo. The Name at the beginning of the post.

Hi Scootz. I thought you'd be in the pool by now. Heh. We're posting at the same time.

I would like to add another smiley to that one. While I groan with despair at ever trying to understand this concept of 'negative comforts'. So, Cather got it from Trollope, one of her favorite authors. It certainly is a catchy phrase. Let's insist that we know what is meant by it and continue reading. The concept is the key to understanding the professor's moral dilemma, so let's see what he does with it.

It's simply amazing what can be read into Cather's book, and it certainly makes for a multitudes of takes, as reflected in the many colorful posts. They're fun to read. Not least the post which reminded us that every word in Cather is loaded. In a way that's like leaving a lot of blanks for the reader to fill.

' "Couldn't Langtry see it was a draw, that they had both been beaten?" What does he mean? '

That's a good case in point, Ginny. Whatever is the professor saying with that? My guess is that it reflects his mood of despair and failure. St. Peter has had a successful career by any standard. But he seems to be saying that he, and Langtry, have not achieved what they set out to do or be. Modern students are a sorry lot the professor has told us. That's tragic, if a teacher feels that way at the end of his career.

I believe only Louie in this family, or house, knows where he is going. He comes on strong, but his intentions seem generous, polite, and concerned. He's eager to please. He knows darn well he's not accepted by everyone, but it's not for lack of trying. Now he's wondering where he has failed his father-in-law that he should hear about the sins of eating. He would be sensitive about eating kosher. That, I suppose, might awaken a curiousity about what else the professor might be saying in his lectures.

There's a lot happening off-stage in this novel. I don't think Godfrey's comfort comes with silence, as it does for Trollope's Marie. Cather has made a develish use of the concept.

I've been at the coast for a few days and missed SO MUCH! My initial take on negative comfort was that it was similar to a concenpt that a PhD, Psychology, shared with me once. She called it a "brown stamp". Stamps like in green and blue which were awarded to shoppers who would then redeem them for various items. Brown meaning that the "reward" was contradictory, i.e., behavior which elicited responses which confirmed your worst fears/expectations. He was "rewarded" by a feeling of self-sacrifice by putting up with the abysmal lighting, for example. About Louie, I like him. He is very honestly an entrepreneur who takes the raw material of someone's discovery and creates applications which earn wealth for everyone. There are lots of Louies around Silicon Valley, Redmond Washington, and like places. Lastly, to me the professor's antipathy to science is that of the man of letters whose forte is mental, relying on leaps of intuition as opposed to the practicality of hands-on science with its requirement for empirical evidence.

Is it too early to think about a theme for this novel? In my opinion the central theme is about St. Peter finding solace in the past rather than the present or future? He finds solace in those things that have stood the test of time.

These are some of things that were introduced in the 1920s. Most have not stood the test of time, many have been improved upon, and two are still with us today.

1919:
Prohibition
1920:
The divorce rate is just 13.4 percent
Babe Ruth joins the Yankees; he hits 54 home runs [I mention this
because today Barry Bonds is now tied with Babe Ruth]
1921:
Mae West is imprisoned for ten days for appearing in a nasty play
called Sex
1922:
Period of prosperity begins and will continue until the crash
1923:
Auto sales boom. One out of evry two cars sold in America is a
Ford
Mah Jong becomes a national craze
The Charleston becomes the rage
1924:
Florida real estate boom
1925:
Resurgence of Ku Klux Klan
1926:
Henry Ford introduces 40-hour work week
1927:
Charles "Lucky" Lindbergh takes off in monoplane
Al Jolson stars in "The Jazz Singer"
1928:
Mickey Mouse is introduced
1929:
Flagpole sitting and dance marathons are national craze
The stock market crashes


But I think Cather was referring to those ticket items that Lillian and her daughters were buying just because they had the money. St. Peter on the other hand rejects "materialism."

What an intriguing term, and I like all the thoughts that have been expressed so far. However, I think the professor himself answered what "negative comforts" are when, in his thoughts, he reflected how all the years he had lived in France without a bathroom, and so had everyone else, and that it was a full life in spite of that. So having a bathroom is a "negative comfort" in that it's comfortable but not necessary to live a full life, just as many of our other scientific comforts are not necessary.

Just my thoughts on the term. But I just love the "negative comfort of silence" explanation.

"SierraRose, you ask if Marsellus is cruel naming the house after his wife's dead fiancé? I think we need to look at him again, that entire passage? I think that's one of the strangest things I ever saw, especially as Scott gripes that he didn't even know Tom Outland!"

Not only did Marsellus appropriate Tom's name for his house, but he appropriated his fiance, his wealth, his invention and his reputation, the family Tom spent time with, and the professionals who admire Tom. He has also in a way appropriated Lillian by keeping secrets with her (she knew the name he had chosen for the house before it was announced) and he is trying to appropriate Scott and Kathleen when he "gives" them things they don't want and plainly state they don't want. He is an ultimate manipulator.

No wonder St. Peter keeps quiet instead of saying what he really thinks when the name of the house was announced. His daughters are now adults. Rosamund is married to this man. He has to keep the peace by not saying what he thinks. I would do exactly the same. It's called respecting adult boundaries and good manners instead of causing an upheaval in the family about something you can do nothing to change.

All I can say about Marsellus is UGH!

As for the professor's description of Rosamund, I don't think he's being critical as much as he is seeing her realistically and is seeing past the glossy hair and the beauty. After all, he knows her better than most people. I see my children REALISTICALLY. It doesn't mean I don't love them or that I would ever say what I see if it's negative---I see it nonetheless, just as I hope they see me realistically. There ought to be an honesty within the family that is hard to come by outside of the family. It means you love each other EVEN WITH YOUR HUMAN IMPERFECTIONS.

Deems, that's interesting about the bathing cap protecting the head temperature. I had always just assumed it was a hair thing. Lake Michigan is COLD. I remember as a kid growing up on Lake Michigan that in summer the water temperature would be announced every day at noon. My mother would not let us go in unless it was at least 68 degrees. We liked it best when it got up to 73. For comparison, the arthritis swim classes in the pool require either 81 or 83 degrees.

Ginny, I don't think you like St. Peter. But, in remarking about his daughters' physical attributes couldn't he just be a realist? Maybe Rosamond did stoop a bit -- because she thought she was too tall?

Sierra, I've been typing as I read the posts and I just now read your well-expressed post about seeing our loved ones realistically. St. Peter's comments about his daughters remind me of a proud and loving grandfather speaking about his granddaughter -- a recent college graduate who couldn't find a job. "Her problem is her weight. I wouldn't hire her either." (This in the days before political correctness.)

As for Marcellus walking off with the dinner -- I interpreted that to mean he just took over. The dinner guest had come to see St. Peter, but Marcellus captured his attention, and apparently this was something he frequently did. And now he seems to be the one making the plans for the Chicago birthday trip as well, although St. Peter is the one who has reason to go.

As for the will, it probably would have been common in 1914, if a young man going off to war had any assets, to leave them to his beloved or fiancee. Perhaps he thought, if times were different we would soon be husband and wife. That may be where Marcellus comes up with his "virtual widow."

Scootz, you and Colby look like you're enjoying yourselves. (What's the water temperature ) I like your quote from Willa Cather. It conveys what St. Peter was saying to Miller in his lecture.

pedln--The head temperature is a true thing. I've forgotten how much of the body's heat we lose through the head (back in Illinois and Maine I always knew), but it's a lot. I'll make a stab with 75-80%. That's why it's a good idea to wear a hat in winter.

I could not for the life of me find anything but one photo (from about 1900) of a man in a bathing cap. But I did find in a book information about a young woman, Gertrude Ederle, who August 6, 1926, swam the English Channel.

She wore a two-piece bathing suit and a red bathing cap. It took her 14 hours. She beat the best men's record (at that time) by TWO hours. Go Gertrude!

Source: Talent Unleashed by Ralph J. Carls

~Maryal

Deems this site has a lot of information about all types of swim caps and refers to the caps worn in the 1920s - and you are right - they say over and over it was to keep the head warm and to keep water out of your ears - evidently water in the ears disorientates a swimmer.Swim Caps

So the swimming helmet is a BATHING CAP! Gad, that didn't occur to me. It sounded so peculiar, I was picturing something out of an old Flash Gordon movie. Maybe rubber bathing caps were new at that time.

Bob and I had a fabulous trip to Philadelphia. Thanks for asking, Ginny. We saw so much - the Liberty Bell which brought tears, a guided tour through Independence National Park, Franklin Square, Maxfield Parrish and Louis Comfort Tiffany's magnificant glass mosaic mural "The Dream Garden," Longwood Gardens and Conservatory, Wyeth paintings in the Brandywine River Museum, tours through Gettysburg and Valley Forge....A fabulous trip.

Your post was so right about Louie I hated that he took over the dinner guest who had come to see St Peter ...and makes all the decisions in his marriage on the premise he is doing it because he loves Rosamund ..He is such an iritant ..and if Rosamund is being difficult I can see why ...if someone is doing things because "it is the best for you " I would be irritible too I hope before the story ends she tells him off.

Speaking of St Peter "He only lives in his mind" isnt that where we all live? How many thoughts we have that are never spoken? How many dreams never realized ? And the older we become how many memories have we stored ? memories that are exclusive to ourselves? For myself often a floodtide of past memories wash over me and I welcome them .because sometimes they are better than what is happening in the here and now. anna

pedln, Water temperature was 86. I had to heat the pool, which was only to 80. It felt good to exercise my joints, that's for sure. Now I can start going in daily to finally get some exercise.

My son, who had the ear infection thing when he was little wore Speedo cap- blue, not red. In Texas we don't worry about keeping our heads warm.

I asked my husband about negative comforts the other night. I said, "Say the first thing that comes to your mind when I say 'Negative comfort'". He said- "Oxymoron". LOL Then he asked for the context. When I read the lines from the book, he got it right away and for the first time, I understood it too. Funny how sometimes, you just have a sort of mental block and then the light goes on. Almost like your brain isn't quite ready to take in the information till the time is right.

I got my DVD of "THE ROAD IS ALL" yesterday and I want to view it this aft. On back of the case it says the following:

"Her life remains mysterious -- largely because she destroyed so much of her personal correspondence and insisted on specific restrictions concerning her work -- and seductive -- largely because she ignored every cultural obstacle in her path. She was educated and well-traveled, she smoked, and she talked tough, she did not suffer fools and she often dressed like a man. She has been a great inspiration to women writers, and a great hero to women readers, rediscovered in every decade for the past 100 years." -PBS Video "The Road is All"

Willa Cather totally fascinates me and I would have loved to have met her. Not only is she a brilliant writer, but her personal life has so much to admire as well. I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for her in so many ways. She's like a hero to me with all she did.

I also ordered her SONG OF THE LARK and was reading the foreword to it last night. Here is what is said about THE PROFESSOR'S HOUSE

"But THE PROFESSOR'S HOUSEis the novel some readers (this writer included included) consider her masterpiece. It is a book about despair and aging, the misery of a marriage in which all passion is spent, the trials of family life, the ugly face of ambition, and the deep sadness of a love that has passed away without ever being realized."- SONG OF THE LARK, p.xxvii, Doris Grumbach

That last phrase fascinates me and I think that it probably refers to a different love than the one I initially thought.

I've only read the one other Cather - O Pioneers!. This book is completely different and not in that "colorist" vein that so many of her novels are.

Ginny, It appears as though the professor is hitting an awful lot of personal nerves for you. Sometimes this happens as a reader, as we all know, and it's why we all experience books so differently.

I see the Professor as totally benign. Now, keep in mind that God/religion and art are the same for Cather. And we know that the Professor parallels Cather's life. He (and she) is at a time of his life where he feels his art (God) is gone. His volumes, and his study are in the past. What does his life now hold for him, now that the purpose is gone?

I feel complete empathy and sorrow for this man. Perhaps, his unhappiness and despair make him critical. That happens to all of us. He doesn't seem to me to even be able to connect to anyone except on a critical level. I feel such sorrow for him, actually.

BTW- is the Professor actually verbalizing these "criticisms"? I thought (and I could be wrong, it happens a lot) that these were his internal ramblings.

*(I can't even speak of leg bones right now after seeing that heartbreakingingly upsetting Preakness yesterday. I still am tearing up just thinking about it.)

I have a dear friend who is a friend of Michael Matz ( horses owner). As of last night, the horse was due for ankle surgery this afternoon. Lets all keep a good thought for him I am busy reading for next week, but to finish off for the first chapters. I guess I agree with the people who feel that parents and grandparents do tend to see and love a different person that the outside world may see. I have two daughters in law that I love dearly. Both are way way heavy, doesnt make me not love them, but I do notice for sure.

Stephanie- Paper said this morning that it will be several months before they know if the injury is life threatening, to do with the blood supply being able to get to the area and cause healing-or not. So sad.

I just watched the dvd of Willa Cather and two things stood out to me that apply to our discussion here.

Cather said that there is no God but one and Art is his revealing.

And this that Cather said,

"In 1922, the world broke in two, and I am with the former half." Like the Professor, Cather found it difficult to leave the past ways behind and get with the more realistic writers of that day.

PS-I would gladly send this DVD on to anyone who would like to see it, just provided that you send it back to me. Just let me know. I realize that not everyone is as crazy over her as I am, but I'm just saying..I'm willing to share. Email me if so.

I'm taking another shore leave but will return tomorrow.

Scootz- Would love to see the DVD. Get in Touch!

ST.PETER- I looked up the Saint because I really didn't know much about him except the song "St. Peter open those pearly gates". I am sure Cather chose the name for some purpose but I still can't "divine " what it is. Anyhow I gleaned these facts from a long and detailed article from "The Catholic Encyclopedia".Perhaps one of you can venture a guess about the meaning or perhaps we just have to wait till we get further in the book.

Peters original name (Hebrew) was Simon Bar (son of) Jonah. He was married and HIS WIFE SUFFERED MARTYDOM ! His brother, Andrew, was a follower of Jesus and said "Thou art Cephus which is interpreted as Peter. (Cephus is Rock in Aramaic). Peter became a follower of Jesus and was among the twelve Apostles chosen by him.

Christ accords Peter first place among the Apostles and the spirtual guidance of the faithful was put in his hands, as the special representative of Jesus. At the seizing of Christ , Peter denied Christ due to exterior fear and cowardice. He recognized what he had done and the risen Christ confirmed Peters ascendancy and foretold the violent death Peter would have to suffer.

Well on to the reading of the next part. I will have to hold myself back from finishing the book in one big gulp.

Judy

So much to comment on, but I have to take a break for lunch. I read so many provocative ideas. Good God. I believe Cather has set a trap for us if we're not careful. I have to keep reminding myself not to cut my prejudices too much slack. Cather was bitter when she wrote this book. Keep supplying us with background, Scootz.

That silence from the professor wasn't politeness, and it certainly wasn't a negative comfort for Louie. And now Rosamond, in the opinion of some is taking on unpleasant physical characteristics!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But what is beauty? There is the beauty of art that you can see, the beauty of music that you can hear, the beauty of taste and smell that you can drink or eat [like a great cup of coffee] and than there is the beauty of touch. How you feel for example when you pet a cat.

But there is another side of beauty as well. There is the beauty that one sees artificially. The fancy dresses and make-up that make women more beautiful, but there is also the beauty that is inside of a person. I think this is the "beauty" that St. Peter appreciated. I think he thought of his daughters and wife's beauty as artificial. He didn't see them having the beauty that comes with reading good books or appreciating art and music.

I found it interesting that throughout this novel one person stands out as being the strongest person. Augusta to me is the one character that always knows what to do in any situation. Not only does she get along with St. Peter, but she has also made herself invaluable to the characters as well. She is needed by all. And above all despite her position in life she has found peace.

Now you have set my mind at ease for I too like Augusta. She has a sense of humor , sees things clearly , understands the feelings of all I think . She has been an observer and while I agree people ought to be able to enjoy the rewards of working hard Louie annoys me because he doesnt just want to share with those about him he wants something from them too,. And since I have a tendency to overlook some words ie Jewish I have never connected his behaviour to being Jewish Just being a pain and his behaviour I have certainly seen in all faiths and ethnic backgrounds My own being Irish we think we are infallible and always right !!!!read the new chapters last night and ready to move on..It is odd because often I cant wait to finish a book to see how it ends but this discussion is staying right where Ginny asked so I am only reading as far as the suggested chapters ..I will agonize the rest of the month until I reach that last page to see how she resolves the story ...anna

Well, I have only read the 1st 6 chapters - have to get cracking to be ready for tomorrow.

With what I've read, I'm surprised at how many people participating in this discussion dislike Louie so much. He has not affected me that way at all. I'll see how I feel about him after the next few chapters.

The person that I cannot stand is Lillian. Some of you seem to feel a sympathy towards Lillian because her husband is always off escaping. Well, no wonder! I have yet to see what the Prof saw in Lillian that he wanted to marry her right away. The only thing we are told is, "she had was a richly endowed nature that responded strongly to life and art..." and "...Lillian's prejudices, her divinations about people and art (always instinctive and unexplained, but nearly always right), were the most interesting things in St. Peter's life." I don't understand how these characteristics are so appealing. I guess I didn't see enough of just what her "richly endowed nature" entailed.

The Prof notices that Lillian has been changing, becoming more and more intolerant.

. . . response about family seeing each other's flaws, but you know, St. Peter never actually verbalized his thoughts. I don't think he would have hurt his daughter in that way by verbalizing them. What I'm saying is that we all have our thoughts about other people, including family members. They don't need to be verbalized.

About family giving support unconditionally, I totally disagree. Yes, unconditional support is wonderful for those things someone cannot do anything about (like looks), but I feel it's absolutely mandatory to correct gross errors. If my kid is hanging out with bad friends, I do not give him unconditional support. When the kid becomes an adult I don't necessarily approve of everything he does, but it it is not harming me or anyone else I love, I leave it be and say nothing even if I may have my thoughts.

So unconditional support is only in my vocabulary sometimes. And my thoughts are and will stay my own.

Well first I have met you and being a shorty you are the heighth I always wished for and often claimed to be! I love my tall daughter and my granddaughters look like they will be tall as well and I am so happy for them it was a pain being an expert in knowing what everyone;s belt buckles looked like and whether they had spilled gravy on thier fronts..

But the words from the professors mouth are really the author's Why does Cather seem to point out all these distinguishing remarks Louie given so called Jewish traits ( gads it must mean everyone I have known like that was Jewish? No way, being obnoxious is not the way of any individual's background !!!)

Now that I am caught up with everyone and will be on the same page I can hardly wait ....anna

Cather wasn't any more antisemitic than the other big writers of her time--It's there in Fitzgerald (Gatsby); it's there in Hemingway. It's even there--much as I hate to admit it--in Faulkner.

These were antisemitic times, not only in Europe and other parts of the world, but in the USA.

It's still with us although more underground.

. . . "The House of Mirth". I liked Simon in the movie by that name. Have not read the book, so I don't know how he was depicted by Wharton. But I couldn't figure out why Lili didn't marry Simon in the movie. He came across as a decent man who just happened to be rich.

And I ADORED Arthur Goodman (I think that was his name) In "A Woman of Independent Means" by Elizabeth Forsythe Hailey.

Both men were totally differed from Marsellus, at least in the film versions, and both were Jewish. So my dislike of Marsellus has nothing to do with his being Jewish. It's his trying to control others I don't like and his appropriation of a dead man's legacy. And yes, he even appropriated the dinner at the professor's house, as some of you have mentioned. Nor do I care if he's rich or not, or if he enjoys riches. I just can't imagine, as a wife, living in a house named for a former lover by my present husband. It's an invasion of boundaries and personal memories that's ugly. No wonder Rosamund is cranky. I wonder if she had any say-so about naming the house, or if she just acquiesced because she is not assertive about her own boundaries. I see her becoming a sort of puppet on a string to Marsellus.

. . . "A Woman of Independent Means". That makes me wonder even more why Cather named her main character St. Peter. The other names "fit" the characters, in my view. The name St. Peter does not, and the two names together (Godfrey St Peter) make no sense at all (to me) in explaining anything about the character. Am I missing something?

Hey, you guys, Marsellus didn't appropriate a dead man's legacy, he rescued a valuable scientific discovery and turned it into a perhaps ;fe saving weapon for the wat that Tome gve his life to. Or am I jumping the gun here. Whoops! I did read ahead and I may be straying from the path of chaps 1 through 6. Sorry.

It seems to me it's mostly little jealousies that are disturbing the peace in the professor's house. Everyone is jealous of someone else, with the exception of Louie. Nobody is working harder at being accepted. I don't see him trying to control anyone. He's an expediter rather than a controller, imo.

And how much of the 'legacy' has he spent on himself? We have yet to meet Tom, but OUTLANDS, the mansion, is more Louie's doing than Tom's legacy, it seems to me. I believe Louie is well aware of Tom's scientific achievment, and thinks he knows what Tom has meant, and means, to the professor and his family. OUTLANDS is meant as a memorial to Tom, and perhaps also meant to serve as a good base for social climbers in the family.

I don't see Lillian as prejudiced. She's working so hard at getting Louie accepted in the family and in the clubs.

If anyone is prejudiced, it's the professor. Or is it jealousy of Louie? Jealousy which has him thinking that Louie is doing more for Tom than he is? Or perhaps the professor is making an unfavorable comparison between the saintly Tom and the wealth-enjoying Louie? We need to know more. The plot thickens.

'Ye are the salt of the earth' Christ said to his people. That applies to literature and drama as well. The best books have a Jewish character in them. The Professor's House was dedicated to a Jewish friend.

the professor is a very difficult man to live with, but he knows it and fortunately is able to spend much time away from his family - I think he is bored with them

Good grief. Did I see what I thought I just saw? Ginny is starting to like our Professor. Well, lawdy, lawdy.

Ginny, I knew some minds would change at least once we got further into the book but I am always, always careful not to spoil. So, my lips were sealed. I'm running errands this morning before it gets too hot, so I'll return later today and start on your scintillating new questions.

Meantime, Jonathan , you asked, so here is a bit more of that foreword by Doris Grumbach relating to what Cather was feeling at this time of her life (see if any of this sounds familiar):

" As Cather grew older, her disaffection with her own time, and her preference for the past, dictated her choice of fictional subject matter....... She went backward in time, finding in the past all the values she failed to discover in the present. She wrote to a friend that she had been able, in her work, to capture a good many pleasures of the past.

Cather's hatred of modern science, and what it had brought upon the world (especially the lethal usages of war) is reflected in Godfrey St. Peter's question( The Professor's House) when he asks what science has ever done for man, except to make him more comfortable. She despised the noise, gracelessness and tumult of the modern world, disliked automobiles( but used them when necessary), and hated the rate at which things were changing. She regretted the disappearance from her world of resoluteness, the fidelity to ideals, persistence, strength, gallantry, manners, religious devotion, civility." p. xxxvii

Another line from the dvd that sticks with me? :What happens when the meaning of your life is over, before your life is over?

A PLOT...OH ME.. BE STILL MY HEART.. A PLOT. I was beginning to wonder, but these chapters for me are a revelation. First of all, the professor is seeing the green, the poor woman is not turning green. He simply is a fanciful man about some things.. Second.. I am put off by the second teacher. His work was too important.. He didnt have time... He has a thousand excuses, but mostly I too feel that he simply didnt care about Toms work until money started appearing. I think the professor is being a genuine nice guy in trying to help and I can see where a lawyer would set Louie with a fit.

I found my early preceptions were vindicated by the next step in reading this book Now Scootz you quoted a remark from the DVD and it is the question I think most seniors ask themselves.

"What happens when the meaning of your life is over, before your life is over? " I know when my husband died it seemed my life was over , never mind I had 4 great children who married equally great mates and had two grandchildren ( which would become eight )( do you know eight made with the number makes a face ie and when I started acting less like Mom and more like some strange lady my children were upset at first. But while it only made sense to me and not to my children in the beginning I told them "I have to make new memories or the old ones will destroy me" I moved on not without pain and not without still missing but one of my friends said something "Original?" I have no idea but it was good advice "I wont weep because he is not here but smile because he once was near"

waiting to see what others saw in the new chapters and for our illustrious leader to ask her questions...anna

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the girls, I feel that St. Peter is involved with the girls. He tries explaining to Kathleen the dangers of envy. While Lillian shows more concern for the son-in-laws, Louie and Scott.

Still in the first week mode --

Scootz says -- " BTW- is the Professor actually verbalizing these "criticisms"? I thought (and I could be wrong, it happens a lot) that these were his internal ramblings. " That was my thinking also, and I agree with you Scootz, that he is a "benign" character. Interesting point there about his life paralleling Cather's.

This discussion keeps getting better and better. I don't know when I've seen so many different attitudes towards the characters. Avenge and defend. Way to go.

pedln, Then again, may be Ginny didn't care whether they were verbalized or not. Maybe his mere thinking of them was bad enough to her.

I'm going to tackle the first question above.

1. The relationship of the sisters is brought into more focus and it would appear it's not Tom Outland causing the problem. Or is it?

Well, it may be a little less fuzzy, but it's sure not crisp and clear to me yet. There appears to be some jealousy on Kathleen's part about Rosamund's wealth and possessions. But I'm not so sure yet that that's really what this is all about. Kathleen says that it didn't start until Rosamund married Louis. So we have to take her at her word right now and on the face of it, it would appear that it's a jealousy about wealth. But for some reason. I'm just not trusting that this is all there is.

How likely is this to happen in families?

If you mean sibling rivalry, I'd say the answer to your question is very likely.

What did you think of his reply?

I'm assuming Ginny, that by "his reply", you mean his more or less telling Kathleen that she needs to stop being silly and not concerning herself so much with what Rosamund has, I think he gave a pretty darn good answer. He's being very logical and trying to show her that her negative thinking is only going to make her unhappy. On the flipside of that, he really doesn't commiserate with her very much. Or let her know that he understands how she feels. So as far as his "active listening" skills, he gets a B-minus. But his response is so male, isn't it?

What would you reply were these your daughters? What would you do?

Probably my initial reaction would be to do, much as Godfrey did and try to be very rational about it. But I've learned with my son, that I need to "listen", not judge, and allow him to talk it out. I'm not saying I'm good at all the time, but I know that's what I should be doing.

What do you think is the REAL source of friction between the sisters?

I'm really not sure yet.

________________________________________________________________

Okay, so I answered the question, but I'd also like to make a couple of comments about Chapter 7 that really struck me. The story about Kathleen sitting and waiting quietly on the stairs, her little finger swollen from the bee sting, and her not bothering her father while he was working broke my heart. How poignant can you get? They each respect each other so much.

The other thing from Chapter 7, that I want to comment on are the last two sentences of the chapter.

"A sharp pain clutched his heart. Was it for this the light in Outland's laboratory used to burn so far into the night?"

What on earth does that question mean?

I'm still behind with the posts and still in first week mode as well. The discussion is brilliant - hope I can be part of it from here on.

Scootz: your quote from the Cather DVD 'What happens when the meaning of your life is over, before your life is over?'

It seems to me that this is what the Professor is faced with having completed what is probably his life's major work he maybe feels aimless even though he does have another piece of writing to complete before he leaves his attic. nonetheless I think he can see the writing on the wall.

St Peter had my sympathy at first but lost a lot of it with his commentary (verbalised or not) on his daughters' appearance. I've had my share of that kind of remark (too tall, too fair, never has a good suntan, and spare my days - she reads too much!!) These were the least of a long litany of apparently sinful faults voiced, often as a joke? by siblings and others. As Ginny points out there's not a lot one can do about it -

I think Kathleen is more of an artist than she gives herself credit for. She manages to get a tolerable likeness of St Peter over and over especially of the upper head and skull housing the brain (mind) which I think as an artist is what she sees as being where St Peter has his essential being.

On the other hand she is unable to get a satisfactory likeness of Lillian because no matter how hard she tries:

'With her mother she had no luck...the face was always hard. the upper lip longer than it seemed in life and more long and severe, and she made something cold and plasterlike of Lillian's beautiful complexion "I don't see Mamma like that..it just comes like that" '

This is the artist seeing under the facade into the real person and what Kathleen sees in her mother she doesn't like. Nor do I.

I was doing some research and I came across the following passage. Although it refers to writing; I think it also can refer to the Professor's House [both old and new].

"...Going into a raw, newly constructed house which nobody has lived in, touching the fresh wood, sniffing the plaster, you feel neither alien nor at home. You are in the no man's land of the untenanted.

But after a few years, when the house has been occupied and rubbed by humanity, it gains a special aura, even when its occupants are not at home. A quality more imortant than furniture or familiar belongings or food and light is there. People have brought to things as a felt impact of themselves..." "The In-ness of Things" Mastering the Short Story ~ Paul Darcy Boles

I see the second paragraph referring to the old house of St. Peter's where he has brought an impact of himself to the things that surround him in his attic. The new house doesn't have this impact as yet - there are just "things" there. People living in a house make it a home.

Chapter 7: "You know, these things with a kind of lurking purple and lavender in them are splendid for you...It's only lately you've begun to wear them. Louie's taste, I suppose?"

St. Peter hates the ostentatious display Rosamond makes of the windfall she has run into. He sees her acting like she was royalty - thus the purple coat and associates it with her not only coming into money, but also marrying Louie.

Whatever we think of the "man" Louie has become because of the windfall, we should keep in mind that without him and his money and wits Tom Outland's invention may not have become anything. It was Louie at his "own" expense that carried the ball so to speak. I doubt that Tom would have even known what to do with his creation or even cared except that he had discovered something. It takes both men to make it a true invention and adaptable to the times. For example if the telegraph had been functional and cheap - one for every home for example - would we have gotten the telephone? At one time this had been not only plausable, but would have gone forward if not been for the American Civil War.

"A sharp pain clutched his heart. Was it for this the light in Outland's laboratory used to burn so far into the night!"

I think this is a bit melodramatic, but it does get the point across that Cather felt that the ostentatious display of Rosamond and the anguishness over this display of Kathleen made St. Peter feel a pang for the past. I think as we grow older we all feel toward our families differently. Sometimes if we live in the past we want to go back to the times when we had perhaps more control over the lives of our children. Perhaps when they came to us with their problems or concerns. How many of us have felt "a sharp pain" in our hearts with the words: "Mommy, I love you." But as they grow older they now are more independent and they sometimes even turn toward others for advice. The love between child and parent succeeds when that child becomes independent and moves forward away from the parent. I used tell my children that I may not always agree with you, but I will back you in your decision.

But I also think that St. Peter when he feels his "sharp pain" and says: "Was it for this the light in Outland's laboratory used to burn so far into the night" that it refers to the fact that Tom had worked so hard to make his discovery only to have it be turned into some "ostenatatious display" that certainly Tom himself would not have wanted this to happen.

"Was it for this the light in Outland's laboratory used to burn so far into the night" that it refers to the fact that Tom had worked so hard to make his discovery only to have it be turned into some "ostenatatious display" that certainly Tom himself would not have wanted this to happen.

Thank you, Scrawler- that's it. He's thinking of the two faces of his daughters and what Tom's invention has brought about between them. I got it now!

I found a fellow from Chicago who collects old photos. He sent me the photo above (which Pat W has posted) by email today.

Everyone please notice the suits and the young man in the middle with a bathing cap.

Also, someone, and pardon me for forgetting who, asked what "at compt" meant. I immediately thought, at Judgment Day, and then I googled it and originally found nothing.

But it continued to bother me and then it came to me. It's another Shakespearian reference. (Remember the one from Macbeth, Hats?)

This one is from Othello, Act 5, just after Othello has killed his wife, Desdemona, and after Emilia has told him the truth and he realizes his error:

Othello:

O ill-starr'd wench!
Pale as thy smock! when we shall meet at compt,
This look of thine will hurl my soul from heaven,
And fiends will snatch at it.


In Cather's day, many of her readers would have been familiar with Shakespeare and would have picked up these allusions.

"compt" is marked either obsolete or archaic in the OED.

~Maryal

COMPT, n. Account; computation.

COMPT, v.t. To compute. [See Count.]

COMPT, a. [L.] Neat; spruce. [Not used.]

http://www.cbtministries.org/resources/webster1828.htm

I've been lurking and so thought I'd post this.

~~Marj

Thanks, Marj. It was archaic in 1828 too.

Maybe it was archaic when Shakespeare used it.

The Professor liked his daughters when they were small children. He liked to see their "sweet frocks' on the seamstresses dummies.. He could still control them when they were small. His daughter Katie was so "good"- she was afraid to bother him when she got stung by a bee! Thats not goodness-that's FEAR ! She knew, by the age of six that her problems were less important than her Fathers rules.

Godfrey does not understand his daughters. In Chapt.V11 we have : "When they were little girls, Kathleen adored her older sister.......St. Peter had not seen any change in it until Rosamund announced her engagement to Louis Marsellus. Then all at once, Kathleen seemed to be done with her sister. Her father beleived she couldn't forgive Rosie's forgetting Tom so quickly."

Is he surmising and substituting his own feelings and thoughts for those of his younger daughter ? I wonder ?

Then at the end of Chapter X we have the following: "When a man had lovely children in his house, fragrant and happy, full of pretty fancies and generous impulses why couldn't he keep them? Was there no way but Medea's, he wondered?".

MEDEA MURDERED HER CHILDREN! The man may a wonderful colleague but he leaves much to be desired as a Father.

Judy

Thanks, Judy, for the info about Medea. I was wondering what that sentence meant. And thanks, Pat, for the photos of the "swimming helmets"!!

I thought chapter 7 was the oddest chapter. Some of it seemed so very artificial to me - like it would never really happen. Kathleen's furs, for example. First, why on earth would she ask her FATHER to come help her select her fur? (Especially when we find he doesn't even know what kind of fur Rosamond is wearing - the moleskin lavender-tinted coat.) Kathleen, poor dear, can't decide between the sable and the mink!!?? And she's jealous of Rosamond's coat!!!! Plus, Kathleen's husband is a journalist and supposedly they don't have money, just live in a small bungalow, etc. Sable or mink???

Then there's the scene where the Prof notices lavender tones in Rosamond’s fur coat. (He's always noticing these incredible details.) He says something like “It’s extraordinarily becoming. I suppose it’s Louis’ taste. He knows what’s right for you.” How insulting and untactful - like Rosamond when choosing her own clothes looks like crap. "I suppose it’s Louis’ taste." Gad. Rosamond responds that Louis selects all of her things PROUDLY. That's another weird thing. She proudly lets her husband select all of her things.

I was startled by the pathetic story about the summer Kathleen stayed with dad because she had whooping cough. As the Prof remembers fondly, that was when he got to know her. But what a horrible scene he describes about the special deal they "agreed" upon. Kathleen had to play outside all morning by herself and not disturb dad. She was SIX! Not a word about her illness and him nursing her. And whooping cough was a killer! Nope, we just hear about how good she was to let good old dad be by himself all morning every day - even when she is stung by a bee, she can't go in til time's up. Wonderful father. I'm loving this guy more and more.

We do find out something interesting. Apparently, Kathleen calls Louis a Jew which gets Rosamond mad. Dad tells Kathleen that she is untactful by doing this. I think there is much more to the story of the antagonism between the sisters. Kathleen and Rosamond have a lot of baggage and I don't think we've seen most of it yet. I do think some of it has to do with Tom Outland.

I think we find out another bit of it in chapter 9 when Scott and Kathleen are talking about something she told him. He was surprised that she revealed it to him - whatever it was. K. says to Scott “"I don't know. I suppose even then I must have had a feeling that you were the real one." What is she talking about here? Is she indicating she was in love with Tom?

I had the same question Ginny asked in chapter 8 - Lillian says to the Prof: "One must go on living, Godfrey. But it wasn't the children who came between us." There was something lonely and forgiving in her voice, something that spoke of an old wound, healed and hardened and hopeless. "You, you too?" he breathed in amazement.” What on earth does this mean?

And, yes, also in chapter 8 another foreshadowing? remark about the dangerous stove and gas in the old house. Is the Prof going to be asphyxiated? Suicide or accident?

What is “the Magnificat” in chapter 9?

We learn more about the Prof in chapter 9. Another endearing trait of his is how he hates ugly linen. (i.e. the napkins with the picnic lunch.) Honestly.

We find out he is much closer to the Thierault boys than to his own brothers. Intriguing. What kind of childhood did he have?

We find out when the Prof decided to write about the Spanish explorers. The idea popped into his head when he was visiting France. “...the design of his book unfolded in the air above him, just as definitely as the mountain ranges themselves. And the design was sound. He had accepted it as inevitable, had never meddled with it, and it had seen him through.” Huh? Why Spanish explorers and the need to spend time in Spain?

We also find out that the first thing the Prof noticed about Tom Outland was his manly voice. The Prof remembered the details of Tom's hands. (Later he notices the details of Crane's hands.) He is a very detail-oriented person.

We find out the Prof didn’t visit Crane because Crane lived in "unnecessary ugliness." The Prof has a thing about ugliness. He is very sensitive.

Scott says “Tom isn't very real to me any more. Sometimes I think he was just a....a glittering idea.”

Hmmmmm. A glittering idea. More possibilities of a Christ-figure.

The Prof says Tom had “sumptuous generosity.” Tom came to their house poor and left behind great gifts (ancient pottery and valuable turquoise stones.)

Marni ~
I was so glad to see your post about the incident of St. Peter keeping his daughter waiting outside his study for hours, suffering from a bee sting. I hate people like him, who can be so self-centered that they let their children bear the brunt of unhappiness, not to mention real injury. A six-year-old kept waiting outside his door?
How could anyone do that to a little child?

I almost deleted this ... it sounds too personal. However, any person who has had to deal with a disfunctional adult as a child may see overtones in this novel. Did Cather, herself, have any such unhappiness as a
child, I wonder.

Well, I'm totally stunned by what I read here this morning re our Professor. Of course, I respectfully and totally disagree. There is nothing, not one iota of evidence so far to make us think the girls ever "feared" their father. My take on that episode is that Kathleen, because of her personality, chose to wait. I haven't read anything yet that would make me think her father would have been anything less than concerned and helpful had she knocked on his door. Kathleen chose not to.

And here's my evidence:

"....he found her a square-dealing, dependable little creature.:

"They worked out a satisfactory plan of life together"

"She took pride in keeping her part of the contract."

"She was very independent, and would tug at her leggings or overshoes a great while before she asked for help."

Kathleen is very independent. She goes out of her way to maintain her part of the bargain , even when she bumps up against emotional boundaries. This wasn't the Professor's doing, it was hers.

And what is wrong with her playing in the garden for the morning while he works. Don't Moms put their kids out in the yard while they work? Certainly, in those days, it was more common for this to occur. I think she's on the mend from her whopping cough- nothing here to show she needed to be in bed, etc. And what of Lillian leaving her if she's so sick? I doubt Lillian would have unless she was healed enough.

I hate people like him, who can be so self-centered that they let their children bear the brunt of unhappiness, not to mention real injury.

But how does he do this? he says "After lunch he would take her to the lake or the woods, or he would read to her at home." Sounds pretty nice to me. While he works in the morning, they have an arrangement where she occupies herself (and a six year old can), and then he spends the afternoon with her. I can't find fault with that.

"When a man had lovely children in his house, fragrant and happy, full of pretty fancies and generous impulses why couldn't he keep them? Was there no way but Medea's, he wondered?".

MEDEA MURDERED HER CHILDREN! The man may a wonderful colleague but he leaves much to be desired as a Father.

He seems to me to be mourning the passing of time, of the girls' childhoods, knowing that he cannot stop time, nor can he "keep them". Can only death stop this process, he wonders? He is thinking here of the times the girls had with Tom, when his house was filled with laughter, and the girls adored Tom, and life was gay.

He may be emotionally distant from his children- most men are, when compared with Mothers- so in that sense he may leave something to be desired, but I bet if we surveyed 100 ladies, many would say their fathers were emotionally distant from them.

RE Medea: She leads her two children to the house, and that no other may slay them in revenge, murders them herself.

Medea apparently murdered her children before someone else could. She did it to save them.

I think that the professor thinks of himself as a good father and certainly Kathleen seems to regard him as a confidant..Not my kind of father, but then Willa may have been patterning him after most fathers in that period. Men in the 20;s were not particularly involved in the raising of the children. Did Lillian understand about the other teachers wife? She seems to have had some idea about why she wanted to talk to the professor. He seems to be regarded as the one who could influence Louie, but I dont see why.

You and I seem to be on the same page. I find the professor very caring ..and for a father of that time his behavior was more than some fathers gave. My father was of that era and yet all of my memories of him are good. He was not as demonstrative as my husband was with our children but we all knew he loved us and always did quiet things to show he did,.

I am puzzled by Rosamunds announcement that Louie chooses her clothing ...And Why would he do that? That sounds very controlling to me,.He wants her to look a certain way HIS WAY,.I cant imagine my husband ever choosing what I wore he was always proud of the way I dressed and I cant recall one time in 44 years where he suggested I wear something different or that he didnt like my choices,

Ginny asked about the girls apparant hostility toward each other. That only seems to come after they are grown and married .In my family jealousy never raised its ugly head. Either between my brothers and I or with my own children so that is hard for me to understand And again it wasnt apparant when the girls were growing up only after they had married.

Furs were important to women of that era and a purchase of a fur would be a big decision For most women one fur coat would be all you would make and so you would want it to be the right one. And if you lived someplace where winters were very cold a fur coat made sense. Central heating wasnt the norm for most families and not as effecient as now I recall sitting on top of the registers in my home in winter because the heat from the furnace ( the coal had to be constantly replenished not automatic) just couldnt keep the house as warm as needed.

The bit between Godfrey and Lillian , both of them coming to the conclusion they missed what they used to have. Lillian is right it wasnt the chilren that came between them As the children grew her place in thier lives diminished and I think she felt she needed him to be more attentive. And I would think he felt she was not as interested She had the children to absorb her attention when they were small and he had his work Now his main work is over and with it a success and her work is over with the girls I am hoping they realize they need to pay more attention to each other now and allow the girls to make their own mistakes and live thier own lives,.

Some in earlier posts felt if it hadnt been for Louie there would not have been any use of Tom's invention, That is only true because he died, If he was smart enough to come up with this idea he was also smart enough to have it patented in his name. Shows me he intended to do something about it . He also wanted to leave the patent and the process to someone Since Rosamund was the woman he planned to marry he named her as his choice, I also feel he would have expected if anything came of it she would share with her family > because he saw them all as special .

Again I see the professor caring He agrees Crane should recieve something for his help to Tom and he thinks the family should help Augusta . Interesting to me he believes Louie will do both..give Crane some money and help Augusta Although we know Louie has already said that if Augusta didnt learn from her mistake he didnt feel obligated to help.

I am having trouble reading my notes ...In any case I am enjoying this whole discussion ...thanks to everyone..anna

Reading these posts which have brought together elements scattered widely in the story, I'm beginning to have a glimmer: Was the professor a latent homosexual?

Was the professor a latent homosexual?

Well, it's fairly widely thought that Cather was, so perhaps so.

Re "They worked out a satisfactory plan of life together"...... "She took pride in keeping her part of the contract."

I bet I know whose idea the contract was.

Little girls like to please their dads.

Mal-I agree with your take on this novel. The Monk in the Cell metaphor fits for me. The man is distanced from his family not because he hates them ,but because he prefers his own company and his own pursuits to anything anyone else has to offer him.

Only Tom brought him out of his isolation. Tom is drawn as "perfection"-both physically and mentally. He learned years of Mathematics in four months.Whatever he touched turned to a successful enterprise. Woman loved him and men admired him. Sounds like a "Superman" to me. His personality moves the drama in the novel. The fact is that one third of the book is devoted to him.

Some of you wonder why Louis chooses his wifes clothes. This is connected to what I wrote in my former post. Fathers(Men) make the important decisions and woman are "good' if they follow what the men want. Don't forget that picture of Kathleen sitting outside her Fathers office with the swollen hand. She is a disciplined six year old who could have died of anaphylactic shock if she was more allergic.But she was "good' in her Fathers eyes.

Cather never had children of her own. Her partner of 40 years, Edith Lewis, never had them either. She has only her own childhood to base these scenes upon. If anything this scene gives us insight into Cathers own life as a child. It is too poignant to be anything else.

Judy

That's an idea worth developing. Along with the others so brilliantly debated in the recent posts.

But the 'messenger' idea is provocative. Could we take it a step further and see the disciple and the apostle in St Peter? With Tom as the messiah? What an impact he made on everyone.

Nevertheless, I believe it was a sorry day when Tom walked through that door. His legacy is not the millions that Louie is spending on Rosamond, but the the envy, disgusts, acrimony and jealousies that are tearing this family apart. They can't seem to agree on the message.

Thanks, Deems, for the photos of twenty's swim caps. I've just discovered an edition of TPH that has an illustration taken from the cover of COLLIER'S, dated June 6, 1925, announcing the first instalment of '"The Professor's House", A New Novel by Willa'(sic). It has four heads. The two sisters and their husbands, one in each corner, and in the center, a huge mephistophelian-like head of the professor, decked out in a head-enclosing bathing helmet. Is there any way of finding this for posting. I don't have a scanner. This is in the Univ of Neb Press, Lincoln 2002.

Darn entertaining, all your posts.

I think when we read this book we have to apply 1920s morals to the actions of the characters rather than 2006 morals. Husbands used to and some still do pick out their wives clothes in 1920s. After all why shouldn't they; they were the ones who were paying for the clothes.

Also I agree that St. Peter created a cell-like atmosphere, but it was of his own choosing. By 1920s standards he provided for his family and now in middle age he was doing as he wished. I doubt that his children feared him. Children in that time frame did what they were told. Parents back than didn't coddle their children, the children learned to be independent [at least the boys did]. So it is to St. Peter's admiration that his daughters became independent at this time.

I'd like to make a comment about Cather's writing style. There was something about Cather's descriptions that were driving me "nuts." And until I came upon this passage, I didn't understand what was disturbing me:

"In many commercial stories of the kind published up through the 1920s and into the 1930s, such background was as bulky as a horsechair sofa, dominating the induction of a story while its characters, and its readers, waited for the action to start. Dress styles were lingered upon, furnishings were depicted at paragraph-length, fabrics were named and sometimes prices..." ~ "Mastering the Short Story" Paul Darcy Boles.

The following is a description in Chapter 10 of when St. Peter first meets Tom Outland:

"He was working in his garden one Saturday morning, when a young man in a heavy winter suit and a Stetson hat, carrying a grey canvas telescope, came in at the green door that led from the street.

"Are you Professor St. Peter?" he inquired.

Upon being assured, he set down his bag on the gravel, took out a blue cotton handkerchief, and wiped his face, which was covered with beads of moisture. The first thing the Professor noticed about the visitor was his manly, mature voice -- low, calm, experienced, very different from the thin ring or the hoarse shouts of boyish voices about the campus. The next thing he observed was the strong line of contrast below the young man's sandy hair--the very fair forehead which had been proteced by the hat, and the reddish brown of his face, which had evidently been exposed to a stronger sun than the spring sun of Hamilton. The boy was fine-looking, he saw--tall and presumbly well built, though the shoulders of his stiff, heavy coat were so preposterously padded that the upper part of him semed shut up in a case."

Now I realize that in a sense I'm going agaisnt my own advice by comparing this description by 2006 standards. And I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to know all these find things about Tom Outland, but it seems to me that if they had been spread out throughout the dialogue and action that it would have made for a better read. I felt like saying: "Can we get on with it! Who is this guy and why is he here?"

Scrawler--I love your suggestion about judging our characters' behavior by the standards of the 20s rather than our own today.

I see nothing wrong with the daughters wanting their father's and their husbands' approval on what they wear. My father (b. 1898) had exquisite taste. Generally he did not shop with my mother, but she always wanted to know his opinion on any expensive item

My mother used to buy winter suits at Marshall Field's when they had their annual suit sale.

It was not unusual for her to take her two favorite suits home so that she could try them both on for my father. She would return the second suit if he had a definite opinion. If he did not, she returned one suit anyway.

When I was first married I so wanted my husband to go over to a rack of dresses, select one, and say "This would look lovely on you." I even told him that I would like him to do this. He never did. His parents' relationship had been completely different.

So, I don't think control has anything to do with it. My mother simply wanted her husband to appreciate anything as expensive as a suit since he would be the one looking at her in it.

In this book, it's a fur stole in the case of Kathleen.

Notice that it is only a stole while her sister, the wealthy one, has a full coat which is apparently not only lovely and expensive but also LIGHTWEIGHT.

We had little money when I was growing up, but my mother had a fur coat--not mink, some kind of much lesser animal, and no doubt my father had to save up a long time to afford it. But we lived in Chicago and in the 40s fur coats were still the one item longed for. I vaguely remember the Christmas he gave it to her. My father's habit was to always keep one present for my mother hidden. When everyone else had finished opening, he would go off into the bedroom and bring out that one extra gift for my mother. It was always his big present for her.

My mother's fur coat was extremely HEAVY and I was glad when I grew up that down coats had been invented and that I would never have to wear a fur.

My grandmother had a fur stole composed of little foxes' furs. The various pieces attached to each other with little fox heads. I don't know whether taxidermy was involved, but those little heads certainly looked real. They fascinated me when I was small. To attach one end of the stole to the other, one opened the clip on the final fox head and put it anywhere on the rest of the stole.

Isn't it interesting how closely we look at things when we are little?

~Maryal

My immediate reaction to the whole thing about the fur coats and the waiting with the bee sting was There was a little girl
Who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good,
She was very very good
But when she was bad,
She was horrid The coats said power play to me and when I looked up the symbolism for some of that it appears to be a dig at Rosamond.

Found some stuff by looking at so many sites that I do not have all the links - but here is what I found and of course the color symbols from my handy dandy "An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols" by J.C.Cooper

This bit is loaded -- "The curl of her lips was handsome, but terrifying. He observed also something he had not seen before--a coat of soft, purple-grey fur, that quite disguised the wide, slightly stooping shoulders he regretted in his truly beautiful daughter. He called to her, very much interested. "Wait a minute, Rosie. I've not seen that before. It's extraordinarily becoming." He stroked his daughter's sleeve with evident pleasure. "You know, these things with a kind of lurking purple and lavender in them are splendid for you. They make your colour prettier than ever.

...And what do you call this, what beast?" he asked ingenuously, again stroking the fur with his bare hand.

"It's taupe."

"Oh, moleskin!" He drew back a little. "Couldn't be better for your complexion. And is it warm?"

"Very warm--and so light."

Mole is an example of how an animal considered to be a pest can turn out to have value.

According to tradition, moles in Scotland were creating havoc among the farmers until Queen Alexandra, wife of Edward VII of England, ordered a garment made of mole - and started a new fashion. Mole, which comes from Europe, has a small, even tiny, pelt.

The taupe gray pelts are sewn together and dyed for exotic, special "fantasy furs". The leather is very soft, while the fur is short and delicate, resembling velvet in texture. All fur, with the exception of mole, grows from the head of the animal running back to the tail and should always be touched that way. Mole, on the other hand, has no "grain"; it feels the same whichever way it's touched, making it unique among furs.

Symbolism for Mole:an underground dweller it is chthonic [relating to the underworld] and represents the power of darkness; it is also the misanthrope.

Lavender/Purple power, nobility, luxury, and ambition. It conveys wealth and extravagance. Purple is associated with wisdom, dignity, independence, creativity, mystery, tragedy and magic.

Grey: the neutral; mourning; depression; ashes; humility; penitence; Death of the body and immortality of the soul; worn by religious communities: Hebrew Wisdom Heraldic Tribulation.

Coat: Ambivalent as both a symbol of dignity and position but also as a disguise, withdrawal and obscurity, darkness; the secretive; dissimulation, A dark coat signify protection. The Devil often wears a black coat.

Let me do Kathleen in the next post...

Not going to repeat the story and underline the words that say so much - I think you know where I am coming from so here goes with some information that tells us something about Kathleen.

First of all her staying outside his door - many have already stated the fathering of children was very different than today. It was only in 1920 that men for the first time were obligated to child support if they left their wives.

I thought this was very telling of how our imagined idea of what Dads were like get in the way of reality - I have included a few highlights from this speech that I think are helping us see how childhood has been viewed in our history.

The American Family: Part 1
Taking a New Look at Myths and Realities By Harriet Alger

Keynote address given at the NCCCC annual conference, Phoenix, Arizona, April 1995

…from historical records, census data, and research studies to document their conclusion it never was the norm, that neither the Victorian family in "Life With Father," that extended family we like to think about so nostalgically, nor the 1950's "Leave It To Beaver" family ever existed in large numbers and that they were certainly not without problems when they did exist.

Has there ever been a time in history when there was a better family structure and, if so, when? Are we worse off or better off than when our parents and grandparents and great grandparents were children.

Certainly not colonial days. The strict authoritarian rigid puritanism included severe physical punishment for children and adults. The high mortality rates often left children without one or both parents. The frank and graphic talk about sexuality in front of even the youngest children in school, church and family [included] "Fornication" a word in early readers, according to Stephanie Coontz.

How about Victorian days? There was the authoritarian but presumably well meaning father. Women didn't have the vote. Women and children were considered property by a patriarchal society. Middle class and wealthy families were dependent upon the work of low income servants, including mothers who took care of other people's children while their own children often had to be neglected.

Certainly we don't want to return to the time of the Industrial Revolution with 12-16 hour days for many working mothers and fathers, sweat shop conditions in factories, child labor, children left alone at home or on the streets.

The suburban nuclear family after WW II, living in ranch style houses, had a public image that was often very different from what was really happening behind closed doors. Those households had lonely and depressed moms, stressed commuter dads, drugs, alcohol, and adultery, all of which resulted in the highest divorce rate we've ever known. The women who worked to help their veteran husbands go to college and then stayed home to raise the children, often found themselves divorced and replaced by younger women who were the colleagues of their husbands out in the working world.

Economically, there was a better life for some families but not for all. There was discrimination against racial and ethnic groups--violence, intimidation, unequal opportunity, and unemployment.

…Men have fathered children and refused to take responsibility or simply disappeared, and women have been left to cope.

One site that I do not have the link any longer said after women got the vote in 1920 - [so Lillian and her daughters only very recently had any ability to have their political voice heard] - the hope was that women would back child protection and child labor laws. It did not happen and then the depression followed by wars so that the first we see women making a dent in how children were treated is in the 1970s.

OK two posts on Kathleen - next one let me get to her coat/disguise - remember "She threw off the fur and buried her face in a fresh handkerchief.

"I'm so sorry, Daddy, but it's no use to-day. I don't want any furs, really.

Then she blames Rosemund for her vexing peak[sp] over the coat - She spoils everything for me."

"She was very pale; even her lips, which were always pink, like the inside of a white shell, were without colour."

Lips: the rending, devouring aspect of the Great Mother. Opening the mouth is judgment, powers of speech, uttering words of power.

Pink: Marriage

White symbolized a girl's virginity and innocence in the face of her imminent change of state. White represents warmth, peace and happiness, purity, chastity, femininity, humility, joy, light, innocence, fidelity, cowardice.

Shell: the feminine, watery principle; the universal matrix; birth; regeneration; life; love; marriage; fertility.

The mink is a semi aquatic Weasel indigenous to North America, Siberia, China and Japan. Mink was not trapped in any quantity until the 19th century and did not become fashionable until the mid 20th century. Mink is considered to be more of a fashion curiosity than a status symbol prior to the 1920s. Commercial mink farming began in the late 1920s and experienced continued growth into the 1960s

Brown: Melancholy, protection, autumn, decay, humility, atonement, any natural shade of brown or beige was considered very rustic.

The mere fact that a Heraldic shield or crest contains furs suggests a mark of dignity. Usually the fur coat of the mink/weasel is represented.

In the fur industry Marten have been called Canadian or American Sable in an effort to link them to the valuable Russian Sable. The species was endangered due to over trapping at the turn of the 20th century.

SABLE: The heraldic term for the color black is the symbol for Constancy or grief. Black the color meaning problems and death Darkness, power, mastery, protection, decay, mystery, wisdom, death, atonement.

In 1900 a signal event was added to the history of fur in fashion. For the first time, fashion was featured in a major international exhibition. From this time fur coats and accessories began to appear regularly in the collections of the leading French fashion houses. At this time the very height of luxury was to be able to treat your sables casually, almost carelessly.

In the early 1900's the motor car made its first inroads into the 'carriage trade'. Its effect on clothing was immediate and long-lasting. It called for new kind of rugged, warm furs like goat, lynx, raccoon, even sheepskin. The discovery of Canadian and North American sources had opened up vast new supplies which had met the needs of European markets from the late seventeenth century, with the Hudson's Bay Company organizing a constant flow from trappers and hunters in the wilds. By the later part of the nineteenth century, however, this was no longer sufficient to meet rising demands. Fur farms appeared to respond to that demand and to make sure that wild life was protected and not over exploited.

In the 1920's and 1930's, nearly everything was fur-trimmed. Deep bands of fur-edged the hems of coats as well as providing colours and cuffs. Black fox and blue fox were to form huge collars for evening wraps.

. . . the bee sting. No big deal in those days for a kid to have a bee sting, and it was Kathleen's keeping the bargain she had made with dad that stopped her from knocking on his door. My father was very similar. What I liked about it even as a child was the fact that his RULES WERE VERY CLEAR. No guesswork there. I also knew if my life was in danger he would act immediately. And I knew he loved me.

As for Ginny's question of "SierraRose a great point on the names of the characters and St. Peter seeming not to fit. I was quite struck by Lillian's remark to him about life, in the heading, and the implications of living life God free." --- Not sure that Godfrey means "god free". It can just as easily mean "brother" of god, since frey is a brother. That seems to fit this man's monkish style.

Fascinating conversation. Love all the symbolic things Barbara brought up about the girls, but can't help but wonder if an author really imbues everything with symbolism like that, or is it just an "intuitive" process in writing, the way a painter often constructs a painting. The symbolism is often seen by other people, but not by the creator him/herself.

. . . a latent homosexual. That thought crossed my mind, but then I discarded it. I think the professor liked Tom's quick mind. In a way Tom was an intellectual "soul mate". Soul mates do not need to have a sexual relationship. I think a sexual relationship often spoils the "soul" thing.

As a matter of fact, I remember that my parents had a lot of single friends who spent time around our house and were sort of like substitute aunts and uncles to me and my brother. They were not homosexual---just single, and they were always included in our celebrations so they became part of the family.

Even when they went for walks, everyone linked arms so no one ever felt left out. When my father's sister visited us without one of her dapper boyfriends, my father was in the middle, my mother linked arms on his right side, and my aunt on the left. Outsiders looking in could not tell who was the unattached person in the threesome, and everyone felt included. But that's a very European custom, and St. Peter had spent a lot of time with his French family where that custom is similar. There were no fifth wheels in the groups that I remember.

I guess because of my experience I sort of think of Tom in that way. The girls loved him and the professor loved him. The only one who didn't approve was Lillian, but her jealousy was of her own making. I think she had the brains to be a soul mate to St. Peter, but she preferred, over the years, to dabble in minutia, and be distracted by social convention and people like Louis. She could just as easily have been helping St. Peter with his research and become a closer couple.

Heck, no wonder the man wanted to be left alone! But I also think this is just a portrait of a marriage where two people have lost contact with each other and begin to realize it after their children are grown. That seems to be what the conversation is about when the professor says, "you too?" to Lillian. Neither of them quite knew what happened, but both felt the same way, and it surprised St. Peter that Lillian felt the same way he did. This would have been a great opportunity for the two of them to take a good look at each other again and patch things up, but neither of them makes the effort.

Yes, it surprised St. Peter however what he saw was the reason for the distance between them on Lillian's part was for a different reason than he believed was the reason that he found himself distant from Lillian. We do not hear why Lillian distanced herself - we can only guess - his obsession with his books is my guess - single minded when he left her alone, with the children and enough money, in France to make it home on her own - you can see she was relegated to the role of a nanny rather than a companion/wife -

Now to have her house from the proceeds of the success of his books probably makes her uncomfortable and with that much more of a reason to pull further away. Therefore, the interest in the son-in-laws especially Marcellus who freely gives her his time and allows her to make suggestions that will influence some of his choices.

I think the choice of Opera may be the explanation - it was an Opera they attended in the past when being abducted by a lover seemed sexy - this first link describes the Opera of "Mignon" which is derived from Goethe’s "Wilhelm Meister." It is that favorite operatic subject [used in "The Bohemian Girl"] of the abduction of a high-born young lady and her sojourn with a gipsy tribe - it is this second link that tells the delightful short story that is the basis for the libretto for Opera Mignon.

I wonder if Lillian feels like she was abducted by St. Peter to do his bidding, and care for his children and now she is in her rightful place as the Lady of a fine House which is where she belonged all the time they lived in the narrow house with the infamous attic workroom.

PS I agree with you about the symbolism not being planned however, it is a great way of seeing the author's intent with what they include or choose to color the characters - notice now there are several books out about the symbolism included in Literature - I think it is because today in our 21st century life many of these symbols are no longer a part of daily life just like the barber pole that no longer tells us where men can get their hair cut.

I had one sister and we hated each other and preferred our four brothers. Now I have three daughters, two of them speak to each other but the other one won't have anything to do with them. - it all started after the death of their father and jealousy over material inheritance, and I think that is the base of Kathleen's problem - she feels hard done by (rightly or wrongly) I agree about the Professor finding a soulmate in Tom Outland, the love between man and wife had faded with time, and many men find it easier and more comfortable to share their thoughts and feelings with another man of similar interests. I think Mrs Crane had rights, Marcellus was the one who put things in motion because he had the knowhow, but there was a great deal of unfairness in the way the profits were dealt, and I definitely do not like Rosamond.

You mentioned part of the T.S. Eliot poem. Now I can't find your post. I wanted to reread it.

Ginny,

You are writing so fast I can't keep up! You are on the ball. I don't think that poem is without relevance either. I have never understood the poem. I have always loved the lines you picked. Well, now I need to go back and read these great posts including the information about T.S. Elliot.

Did Medea have hair made of snakes? Was that another woman???

I don't have any earthly idea if Crane has a claim to make or not, legally. Aren't wills binding? Frankly, I thought Mrs Crane had colossal nerve and I didn't like her at all. I understand that her husband is ill, their financial bind, but this rather smells of swooping in when one has the need and trying to grab what isn't yours.

Perhaps morally Rosamund should "do the right thing" here, but as far as a legal claim, I don't think Crane has one.

After the opera, the Professor does think of that picturesque shipwreck. Oops, no Lillian there! There is more to come on that later, but not sure it's in this week's reading or not. For the moment, it's enough to notice that she doesn't fit in that dream.

Here's something I didn't understand- can you help? After the dinner in chapter eight, the Professor says to Lillian,

"That," her husband replied, "is my chief objection to public magnificence; it seems to show everybody up in the worst possible light." Who was? Why? (I do know this applies to Cather herself, though as she became more and more reclusive in her later years, didn't like being recognized, etc)

I was surprised about the Professor spending Christmas Day in the attic. Seems like he may have made a concession this once, but oh well. Lillian certainly set him a fabulous lunch, best dinner napkins, wine, etc

That chat between Kathleen and Scott at the end of chapter nine is most intriguing. Is this thing that she "only told him" the fact that she was in love with Tom? That's the only thing I could think of here.She says, "..even then I must have had a feeling that you were the real one." Even then? Hmmm....

Finally, we are briefly introduced to Tom. I admit I was a bit squeamish about him spending so much time with two little girls. I guess that's my 21st century brain. Why was he so open with them, and why spend so much time with them? Not sure just yet. But, just how old were the girls at this time? Anyone figure that out? I couldn't.

Again, the description of a hand! Did our Willa have a hand fetish? It's happened just too many times for it to be nothing.

"Hold them still a moment," said the Professor, looking down, not at the turquoises, but at the hand that held them: the muscular, many- lined palm, the long, strong fingers with soft ends, the straight little finger, the flexible, beautifully shaped thumb that curved back from the rest of the hand as if it were its own master. What a hand! You could see it yet, with the blue stones lying in it.

Everyone else is drooling over the turquoises -- but the Professor is stunned by the hand.

---------------------------------------

Someone made a comment about Willa's writing style, and specifically, her descriptions. I don't really find her writing, overly descriptive, and I come to expect that when I am first introduced to a character. Cather herself hated things that were overwritten, and made an effort not to do that in her writing. She believed strongly that art should be simple.

As far as her writing style for me, I very much like it. If there's anything I can't stand it's when an author feels they must beat their reader over the head with a point. I felt this way all the way through THE AGE OF INNOCENCE, and more recently here in MY NAME IS RED. In both books, I felt the same point was being made over and over and over. And frankly, I find that insulting as a reader. I much prefer a style such as Cather's where the dialogue is spare, and she gives you a chance to form your own opinions, draw your own conclusions. She's making a point, but she respects the reader enough to let them get it on their own. And she doesn't need to to beat me over the head with the point.

I understood Mrs. Crane very well. I think St. Peter understood her feelings about the will too. This is why St. Peter is willing to talk to Marcellus about the situation. As far as involving the law, I think that's going too far.

Funny, a smelly situation leads Mr. Crane and St. Peter to have a comfortable conversation with one another. Nothing about competition between one another. I did read these chapters quickly. I need to go over the chapters again. I don't remember the bee sting.

As far as the girls, I think Kathleen is mainly heartbroken because she sees a sudden change in Rosamunde. All of a sudden her sister is some sort of model off of Fifth Avenue instead of a person. In the midst of becoming rich, Rosamunde loses herself, her personality.

A long time ago I read "The Age of Innocence." Then, we read "House of Mirth" here. I think Edith Wharton uses a more descriptive style to get her points across about New York society. I think Cather's style is more subtle. In other words, to me, there is more left unsaid in her prose which causes me to have to dig harder to get to the gold nuggets.

I have to keep asking myself why he allows himself to be burdened with the creaky stairs, that's one of the first things we learn about him, which I think most of us at some time in our lives can relate to. My question is why?

These things are his negative comforts. Only by putting up with these things was he able to get on. By doing without fixing these things, he was able to afford some luxuries. (see p. 17, second pp)

This is off topic. Did you see the movie "The Age of Innocence?" I thought the gestures, all the tiny movements and objects around the home were so beautiful. What's that French term? Objet'art, well, something like that.

hats, Yes, I did see the movie. Sumptuous, I'd call it! LOL

Yes, "Sumptuous!"

Here is a link in which Cather writes to a friend and speaks about hands. The character of Godfrey St Peter is mentioned. I notice Willa's self effacing manner- she never thought she was as good as she was/is. She also speaks her of her disdain for "florid writing".

On Cather, Hands, Godfrey Pt Peter

here is an excerpt, in case you don't want to read the entire article, talking about hands, her desire to write as finely as Mr gere's hands were:

Even in those days, when I was sitting in his library, it more than once came over me that if one could ever write anything that was like Mr. Gere's hands in character it would be the greatest happiness that could befall one. They were dark and sinewy and so much alive; in a whole worldfull of hands I've not seen any others that seemed to me to have such a singular elegance. None in the least like them, indeed. You see, even very stupid young people addicted to cheap rhetoric are yet capable of perceiving fineness, of feeling it very poignantly.

Regarding the professor's inertia, I know men like that (also some women). Things pile up, they notice them in their peripheral vision, and after a while they either make them part of their environment or don't see them anymore at all. My husband is like that. It's simply because he lives in his mind instead of in the real world. The real world (the material world) doesn't even interest him that much.

I did not like Mrs. Crane in the least. Her threats were pretty ugly. But I do believe Mr. Crane probably helped Tom a lot in the lab, or at least guided him, and it wouldn't hurt for Marsellus to be charitable and give some of the profit to the Cranes.

The story of the Spartan boy and the wolf sounded so familiar, so I looked it up. It was a legend having to do with the ancient Spartan way of raising boys to train them for endurance. Here's some info:

Education by ordeal: "At the age of seven, they were removed from their families and placed in a training system called the agoge, which means, literally, 'rearing'. The children were treated little better than animals. For Spartan boys, one of the classrooms of the agoge was the wild foothills of the Taygetos mountains. They were organised into 'herds' under the command of an older 'boy herd', who was responsible for discipline and punishment. Denied adequate clothing, they slept rough throughout the year – and, in winter, temperatures could drop below freezing. Kept on short rations, they were expected to steal to supplement their food. Anyone caught stealing was flogged – not for the theft itself, but for being an unskilful thief. It was more of a trial by ordeal than an education.

One of the more famous Spartan legends concerns a young boy who allows his intestines to be gnawed away by a fox [or wolf] that he has stolen and concealed, rather than cry out or let the animal go. In the retelling, the story usually becomes a straightforward tale of endurance and moral toughness...."

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/n-s/spartans1.html

Edgar Lee Masters wrote a poem (Spoon River Anthology?) in which he mentions this story. Here goes:

Dorcas Gustine

I was not beloved of the villagers,
But all because I spoke my mind,
And met those who transgressed against me
With plain remonstrance, hiding nor nurturing
Nor secret griefs nor grudges.
That act of the Spartan boy is greatly praised,
Who hid the wolf under his cloak,
Letting it devour him, uncomplainingly.
It is braver, I think, to snatch the wolf forth
And fight him openly, even in the street,
Amid dust and howls of pain.
The tongue may be an unruly member --
But silence poisons the soul.
Berate me who will -- I am content.

http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/Edgar-Lee-Masters/15698

I think this novel is about "class" and how the "money" influences the various classes. By class I mean "social rank."

Augusta, for example, loses $500 in a shaky investment, and Rosamond refuses to use her wealth to help her out. Stating that by doing so she will only encourage Augusta to invest her hard earned money in other shady deals. Do you think Rosamond is right in this assumption? Does Cather state who influenced Augusta into making such an investment? And by the way at no time does Augusta ask for anyone to help with her financial problems. It is just Kathleen and St. Peter who think they have to help her.

Then there is Dr. Crane and his alleged claims on the Tom Outland's invention. Notice that it is Mrs. Crane who comes to St. Peter. Why to him? If she really felt that her husband did have a claim shouldn't he have been the one to put in a claim when he had the papers instead of turning them willingly over to the estate lawyer. Do you think it was Mrs. Crane's brother the "lawyer" who perhaps made his influence on Mrs. Crane that brought her to St. Peter.

And finally St. Peter's colleagues treat him differently now that he seems to be financially in good shape. But St. Peter received nothing from Outland's claim. The money he acquired was from the sale of his books.

In conclusion, another theme for this novel perhaps could be that: "Money is the root of all evil". In other words, if there had been no Tom Outland and no claim to his invention would there be the problems that St. Peter is now facing? Perhaps, but I think some of his problems like not being satisfied with his life would probably have accursed even without the money.

Marni,

Is that poem about whether it's better to hide our feelings vs. voices our feelings? It seems silence has the power to destroy us. The poem is very moving. Who in "The Professor's House" is the Spartan Boy? Is it St. Peter?

Thank you Scootz and Marni for the article and the link and information.

I think the theme of the book is about those who choose to believe in the importance of ideas rather than materialism.

T.S.Eliot is one of my favorite Poets and The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock my favorite of his poems. It starts out with a quote from Dante in Italian .The quote is from The Divine Comedy;Inferno "If I thought my answer were to one who ever/ could return to the world, this flame should/shake no more./But since none ever did return from this /depth,if what I hear be true, without fear of / infamy I answer thee".

Prufrock, usually paralyzed with anxiety, speaks to us without fear of what the world will say since we, like him, are damned and cannot return.

Tom Outland too is dead and he seems to be the Superman of men but even he can not return. But look at the destruction he left in his wake.

Jealousy of the girls, the fight over the profits of the discovery, perhaps Godfreys dissatisfaction with his wife since she certainly can't match up to the level of Tom ability to engage him.

In his mind the professor probably speaks to Tom who was a "soul mate". Even Crane pulled himself out of his lethargy to help Tom. Yes, he deserves some renumeration . Even though by law he is not entitled to any.

It is Marcellus who is the practical person among all the "Intellectual " types we are meeting in this book. Without his development the patent would have lain dead and yellowing. Marcellus is constantly upbeat and cheering everyone on. He wants to fit in. He wants to be the Professors friend but the professor accepting his generosity does not draw closer to him. Scott looks down on the practical man and continues to worry about his lack of funds. He writes"froth" items for the paper to make some money. Perhaps he feels that makes him superior to his Brother in law.

The book ,so far, has not given me anyone to identify with.

Judy

Ginny, You asked was Lillian too a Saint. Yes, there is a Saint Lillian(Liliosa). She lived in an area controlled by the Moors . At first she hid her Christianity so that her Muslim neighbors would not find out. But stories of fearless Christains shamed her and she began to live and openly Christain life. She was happy to be martyred with her husband.

I guess being happy to be martyred is what made her a Saint.

Judy

That business of Augusta's poor investment was the first instance where I felt distaste for Louis. To advise someone with Augusta's income to invest in any one stock is a very bad idea because of the risk involved and shows a great insensitivity on Louis' part. I doubt it would ever have occurred to Augusta to invest like that unless someone advised her to do it.

The Prof received money from the sale of his books. Did he win some sort of prize, also? I vaguely remember him winning an award, but am not sure.

Scootz called our attention to this passage:

"Hold them still a moment," said the Professor, looking down, not at the turquoises, but at the hand that held them: the muscular, many- lined palm, the long, strong fingers with soft ends, the straight little finger, the flexible, beautifully shaped thumb that curved back from the rest of the hand as if it were its own master. What a hand! You could see it yet, with the blue stones lying in it.

Everyone else is drooling over the turquoises -- but the Professor is stunned by the hand.

* * * * * *


I noticed the same passage, Scootz, and thought it interesting, especially the "What a hand!"

There's one other passage, at the beginning of the same chapter, that struck me:

"The first thing the Professor noticed about the visitor was his manly, mature voice--low, calm, experienced, very different from the thin ring or the hoarse shouts of boyish voices about the campus."

It's the "manly" there that strikes me.

Maryal

Marni--The professor won a prize for the 8 volumes of Spanish Adventures--that's what paid for the new house.

Thanks, Deems!

Hats: Re "Is that poem about whether it's better to hide our feelings vs. voices our feelings?" I do think that's what it is about. I think it means more, too. The speaker is not liked by the villagers because he has spoken his mind. Although he is content with how he has lived - and spoken out - perhaps he has said too much or been untactful. I think there is a happy medium where you can say something that may hurt someone, but in a way so the hurt is less. Sometimes, you have to keep quiet, too.

I was horribly upset becaue of the bee sting, but only because I am severely allergic to the venom and must be bustled off to the hospital for injections. I keep wondering about Kathleen and Tom? I have not read ahead, so there may be a reason, but it sort of sounds as if Tom was interested in her, but she chose her husband instead. But I could easily be wrong. I do not like the other teacher at all. Waiting so long and then wanting to be cut in because there is money.. Wrong. I know that when our son was in graduate school, he participated in a two year program on hazardous waste containment. When the full professors article was published, he was simply mentioned as a grad student and he never expected to see a penny of the return on this.

After all the nice things you said about Louis, I'm a little surprised to hear you say that. Let's not forget that along with his enthusiasm and practicality, he also worries about other members of the family. Isn't it an effort on his part to rejuvenate the love that Godfrey and Lillian once had for each other, when he reserves a fine suite of rooms for them at the Blackstone, and gets tickets to a favourite, romantic opera for the two of them?

But Louis is not without his faults. No one in the book is, Cather has seen to that. No sooner does one begin to like a character, then he or she does or says something which in Ginny's penetrating insight is 'rude, rude, rude'. Have we ever met such a cast of characters!?

But...Marni, you would be right to feel a distaste for Louie, if he did, in fact, advise Augusta to make that investment. I believe it was juat the opposite. He advised her against it, after consulting his banking and mining acquaintances. It was probably the ladies at the church who were all excited about investing in copper.

The Crane business must have supplied Cather's readers with much to think and talk about. Something almost maudlin about the Crane's strange behaviour. Not very gratifying, debasing oneself like that for money. Or as Lillian would say: not in good taste.

What struck me about Prof Crane was, not that 'the hands that were so deft in delicate manipulations were white and soft-looking; the fingers long and loosely hung, stained with chemicals, and blunted at the tips like a violinist's'...St. Peter was left with lots of time to study the hands, while Crane wrote out his notes....it was the thought that:

'the man (Crane) seemed to have no feeling for comfort of any kind'

Are all Baptists like that? Nor does the book offer comfort. We didn't expect a rose garden, did we. Neither did we expect to find so many thorns.

Sure it hurts to think of the little child in great pain, waiting for time with Dad. But the way St. Peter reminisces about it, I believe it hurt him in a way to remember it. He does a strange thing with it, in any case. He IS admitting to something which does make him seem cruel. Seeing the spunkiness in the child must have been comforting in a way.

I have to say that I can probably identify with all the characters, each in a different way. Believe it or not, I strongly identify with Lillian. My husband is much like the Professor- occupied with his work, his whole identity is tied up with his job.

The Professor is a good man. He may be distant and introverted, but over and over again we see what a good man he is. He's fair and he's decent and he's moral. He's coming to terms with the Peggy Lee stage of life- Is that all there is? I feel for him deeply.

By the way- isn't it the flaws of people that make them interesting? Who wants to read about perfect people, all sweetness and light? Not me! Give me real characters with flaws that I can sink my teeth into, relate to, understand, be annoyed by, get angry with, etc., etc., etc

I'm losing track here, but I think Ginny asked why he thought of doing the Spanish explorers when he was in France?

The professor and his young family were in France for the summer when the idea came to him. His foster family had connections with a businessman in Marseilles. They paved the road for him. It's not unusual for ideas to fall upon professors when they are not teaching--in the summer, for example, since when teaching one's mind gets pretty busy with the work. Why wasn't it French history? Probably because Cather knew a good deal about the American Southwest and wanted to have the professor base his life work on that.

Just looked up the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo which ended the Mexican-American War in 1846 (training ground for many officers who would be prominent in the Amer. Civil War).

This information is from the Library of Congress Reading Room online.

"On February 2, 1848 the Treaty was signed in Guadalupe Hidalgo, a city north of the capital where the Mexican government had fled as U.S. troops advanced. Its provisions called for Mexico to cede 55% of its territory (present-day Arizona, California, New Mexico, and parts of Colorado, Nevada and Utah) in exchange for fifteen million dollars in compensation for war-related damage to Mexican property."

Look at all the land the Spanish gave up in addition to southern Texas! All of Arizona, California, and New Mexico.

It makes you think about what the USA might have been like had it not gained this territory, an especially interesting thought what with all the problems with the border these days.

Maryal

Jonathan: Re Louis advising Augusta about the investment....."if he did, in fact, advise Augusta to make that investment. I believe it was just the opposite. He advised her against it, after consulting his banking and mining acquaintances."

I re-read that section. I believe it indicates Louis did advise Augusta to make the investment. The wording in the online versions says: "She [Augusta] was ashamed to tell any of us about it, because it seems she'd asked Louie's advice, and he told her to invest in that company. But a lot of the people in her church were putting money into it, and of course that made it seem all right to her.....She says that Louie took the trouble to speak to his banker and to several copper men before he advised Augusta..."

Louis is not a monster here. It seems she asked him for his advice and he checked the investment out with others before advising her. He did think it a good investment.

However, I still think a single stock is a very risky investment and he should have known that it would not be the best thing for someone in her circumstances. Of course, that is not what anyone in the book is really worrying about. They are wondering about how Augusta will get her money back.

Marni...interesting the online version is not the same as my large print version, p. 132. The sentences are [bold is mine]

She was ashamed to tell any of us about it, because it seems she'd asked Louie's advice, and he told her not to invest in that company. But a lot of people in her church were putting money into it, and of course that made it seem all right to her.

That is a very interesting difference in print, Jane and Jonathan!!! It completely changes what happened. I wonder if anyone else has a different version and what their wording is. I just used my computer to do a copy and paste with the online wording, so I don't believe it is my typing. Hmmmmmm.

I've just been roaming around on the web hunting for another online version of The Professor's House to see what the wording in Chapter 11 was. I found this on the site listed below:

"She was ashamed to tell any of us about it, because it seems she'd asked Louie's advice, and he told her to invest in that company. But a lot of the people in her church were putting money into it, and of course that made it seem all right to her."

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/p/pd-modeng/pd-modeng-idx?type=HTML&rgn=DIV1&byte=8495445

This is the same wording as the Project Gutenberg Australia wording (our link in SeniorNet).

This is the wording a couple of paragraphs later:

"She says that Louie took the trouble to speak to his banker and to several copper men before he advised Augusta; and that if she doesn't learn her lesson this time, she will do the same thing over again."

Why would it say in this paragraph "before he advised Augusta... if he told her NOT to invest in the company?

Marni, if that's what the online version says, you're justified in feeling disgusted with Louie, and I would support you. That would make all the difference. My book has the same wording as Jane's, 'he told her not to invest in that company.'

It is interesting that Augusta did go to Louie for advice. She must have felt differently about him than some others. We've heard that he is an 'adventurer', a 'fortune-seeker', a 'salesman', etc. And of course, that he is a Jew. Was it that, that made Rosamond so furious, that she came out of her sister's house with a haughty expression and her lips curled in a terrifying way. Father arrives and is dismayed at the sight. His courage fails him at the thought of meeting Kathleen inside. And he does find her, turning green, as he tells us, and talking of Rosamond's snake-hate looks. Whatever were the sisters saying to each other? It leaves ST. Peter shaken. In his efforts to calm Kathleen, he asks her, looking to the window, 'this is a pretty little storm', not thinking of the irony in the thought.

His daughters's differences have a serious effect on St. Peter. It comes back to him a little later when he is sitting at his writing-desk. In a vision the girls' faces reappear to him.

' Two faces at once rose in the shadows outside the yellow circle of his lamp: the handsome face of his older daughter, surrounded by violet-dappled fur, with a cruel upper lip and scornful half-closed eyes, as she had approached her car that afternoon before she saw him; and Kathleen, her square little chin set so fiercely, her white cheeks becoming green under her swollen eyes.'

Then comes the sharp pain in his chest, and he drags himself to the window for air. Then come the words 'Was it for this' that Outland worked so late in his laboratory over there in the Pysics building. He must mean with that this terrible falling-out of his two daughters

One more nail, as they say. There have been several foreshadowings with regard to his little stove, which might some day malfunction. What seems just as foreshadowing are the constant hints about St. Peter's state of mind. He seems discouraged, dispaired, despondent and distraught by turns. His broken family is certainly part of it.

'Was it for this?' What a wild way of leading into Tom's story. This novel has a very unique construction. But as we've heard, Cather was going for the literary version of a sonata.

I think Louie truly loves Rosamund. I also believe Louie wouldn't harm a fly. If Louie, has one flaw it is trying to make people like him. His only way of achieving this goal is by making his wife glitter, giving to his in-laws. In the Midwest of the 1920's what was the mix of the population?

St. Peter remembers growing up, not knowing any Catholics. I think his mother was Methodist.

I think Louie is maybe is the "turquoise in dull silver."

Is this novel like a sonata?
Apparently a sonata means different things to different folks, Jonathan, my friend,

A sonata by Chopin, full of emotion and varied tempos?
A sonata by Beethoven, with thunderous passages contrasted with pianissimo sections?
A sonata by Wolfie ... er ... by Mozart, with details fit for an Emperor,
with every single note precise and clear as a bell?
Cather appears to catch some of each, and more, but whether or not a musical interpretation was her intention, we are all, apparently, caught up in the complexity of her construction.

Which person? The daughter Kitty is the most lovable character, IMO, even if she has the little flaw of envy in her life at this time. Whereas, her sister ... It's too close to home to talk about sisters who do not get along, or treat each other with kindness.

Ginny's suggestion that we describe the characters as if we were writing a play, how about as if we were casting a movie? Blythe Danner for Lillian? Jeremy Irons for Godfrey? Joqauin Phoenix for Louie? (Even better, Eric McCormack who plays "Will" in Will & Grace.) Kate Blanchett/Kate Hudson for Kahleen? Catherine Zeta-Jones for Rosamund? Scott stumps me.

Only $2.79? Regular here is $2.99.

While Tom was the genesis of the invenion/development, Professor Crane seems to have been integral to its fruition. At this point, the thing was merely suitable for write-up in a journal with credit shared. What Tom would or could have done with it is apeculation. Doesn't seem as if Hamilton would be a likely place to come into contact with industry since it is the center of agricultural and commercial schools per the legislature. Someone like Louie was essential to full utilization of the gas. So, Tom has the dream, Dr. Crane has the science, Louie has the know-how. Surely Crane deserves a share of the pot. The difficulty lies in the characters of Mrs. Crane and her brother who are personally off-putting. Isn't it interesting that the Cranes have so many children? Having a large family and then pleading poverty seem to me to be like the masn who murders his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan. BTW, not much humor in this is there. Did Cather have a sense of humor? I wonder.

Are we still discussing foreshadowing too? I see this incident as a foreshadowing. I might very well have the idea wrong.

Godfrey and Lillian are holding a quiet, maybe revealing conversation. Two times a shipwreck is mentioned. Godfrey says to Lillian,

"We should have been picturesquely shipwrecked together when we were young."

Later, at bedtime, Godfrey thinks of the shipwreck again. Oddly, Lillian isn't in the picture.

"Before he went to sleep he found the very day, but his wife was not in it. Indeed, nobody was in it but himself, and a weather-dried little sea captain from the Hautes-Pyrenees, half a dozen spry seamen, and a line of gleaming snow peaks, agonizingly high and sharp, along the southern coast of Spain."

If this is a foreshadowing, I don't have an idea of what it's foreshadowing. It does seem like some part of his life that Godfrey never shared with Lillian or won't share in the future.

Isn't Crane's problem with having any claim on Tom's formula and what it led to that he didn't do anything at all for all the years it was in development? Never said anything to anyone, never wrote a letter explaining his contribution? I think his wife put him up to this whole effort.

"Honey, you know that some of that Outland money belongs to you. My brother the lawyer needs to take your claim and bring it to the law. Just think what a little of that money would do for us. I do so fear for your health. . . ." for years and years and years. Crane needs to state specifically just what he contributed. I don't think he knows himself.

Maybe Crane keeps having to have all these operations because he's not carefully following procedure in that lab of his?

No claim to the money. Too late. Case closed.

~Maryal

No claim to the money. Too late. Case closed.

Ditto, deems! except maybe a moral responsibility to give something out of the good of her heart, but a legal claim - no way. At this point, I'm thinking that Tom really didn't even care about money, making the invention. Dunno. (?)

OT- Our gas here has been up over $3 per gallon for ages! Hub has company car, my little put put uses a tank every two weeks (PT Cruiser), so not much of an issue for us . I feel for my son who scrapes by every week as it is. Don't know how he does it.

The book begins with a move to a new house and the title of the book is The Professor's House. Why do you suppose the author chose to begin HERE? What is she trying to establish with her focus on a comparison of the houses?

Only the entire theme of the book is all! Old v new, modern v tried and true, comfortable v uncomfortable, material v not, etc., etc

Lillian- good caregiver, codependent, probably very depressed, her only life seems to be through others

Prof- need I say any more than I have already? No need to beat that horse any more.

Rosamund- haughty

Kathleen- insecure

Scott- insecure also, not aware of his own talents, strengths

Louie- I think Louie has a big heart, he's generous, thoughtful , and a shrewd businessman

Tom- ask me later- don't know enough yet to make a statement

I think Kathleen is insecure too. Kathleen is unsatisfied. To me she fits the poem posted by Marni. Kathleen can't find the words to express her feelings. She is an explosion waiting to happen. Who is to blame? I don't know. We always blame mothers of a family. Anyway, Kathleen can't express her needs. She either cries or bursts out in anger to the wrong person.

Lillian, I feel, is not a bad person. She is an empty woman. She does not seem to have a close relationship with her daughters. Lillian is searching, maybe searching for love.

I am anxious to learn more about Tom Outland. Up to chapter thirteen I can't see him clearly.

I love St. Peter. I think he needs space. He is trying to assess his life. He is looking for quiet, maybe an empty place, perhaps the room in the old house, where he can look at his past again. He wants to remember the best part of the past and make peace with the past where his expectations were not met or where mistakes were made in the past. New memories might get in his way. He reminds me of a cat looking for somewhere, the best place to give birth. Then again, maybe he is like some injured dying animal looking for a place away from the family to die quietly.

We always blame mothers of a family.

Not in this group we don't!!!!!!LOL

Then again, maybe he is like some injured dying animal looking for a place away from the family to die quietly.

Now that, that is an interesting comment, hats. I don't know about death, per se, but maybe coming to terms with aging, his own mortality. I do like your analogy though!!

Scootz,

Remember a time when mothers did take the brunt of what would go wrong in a family? I suppose because mothers, at that time, were in charge of the family while fathers went off to work. My memory might have become mixed up again. I did think there was a controversy one while about mothers feeling guilt because of unmet expectations in the family.

I am definitely not talking about the feelings of our group here.

Oh absolutely hats. What I meant was that this group seemed to be very hard on the father, not the Mother. I was actually making a joke.

Scootz,

I agree with you. I think St. Peter has taken a lot of heat. I just really like St. Peter. It's hard for me to find fault with him.

This seems like a very sad remark about Tom in the tenth chapter. It's like Tom didn't leave a lasting mark. It's almost like Tom was just a mirage. I think the remark is made by Scott.

"Tom isn't very real to me any more. Sometimes I think he was just a-a glittering idea."

This remark stayed in St. Peter's mind. He spent more time thinking about Scott's comment. Is that an insulting remark? I would want to be remembered as more than " a glittering idea." It almost sounds like fool's gold.

Scootz-"Kathleen can't express her needs".

Please Scootz, return to the picture of Kathleen sitting on the steps with her Bee bite and swollen hand. She had , by the age of six, been thourghly trained or brain washed, that expressing her feelings or needs was being a "bad" girl. She was "good" only when she suffered in silence and waited to be noticed. The Professor did not think of her as a person but as a sweet thing that was there for his pleasure. Thus ,now, when she is causing him annoyance he contemplates Medeas solution of murdering his children.

Perhaps he is your kind of guy. I feel that I am watching a man on the verge of a break down whose thoughts are running away from him. He is isolating, dreaming of the past with Tom and becoming less and less involved in his adult childrens lives. Only his wife is aware of this slow break down and she seems beyond caring about him at this point in her life.

If this was a play I would need to subtly change one or more of the characters so that there would be someone for the audience to identify with. Perhaps thats why this story was never made into a play or a movie.

Judy

Scootz-"Kathleen can't express her needs

I didn't say that.

She had , by the age of six, been thourghly trained or brain washed, that expressing her feelings or needs was being a "bad" girl. She was "good" only when she suffered in silence and waited to be noticed. The Professor did not think of her as a person but as a sweet thing that was there for his pleasure.

Judy, I'm really sorry but I don't agree with any of this and I already stated my feelings. I gave evidence to support the way I feel. Where is the evidence that he would kill his children? That he brainwashed them? I can't agree with these things. I'm not into arguing points back and forth over and over on a message board. If I disagree, I try to state that with respect and move on. We will just have to agree to disagree.

I identify the most with St. Peter and not only because he was a writer. In my house growing up "silence" was the rule. A child did not speak unless spoken to and since I was a sickly child I spent a lot of time alone in my bedroom reading and imagining. So I do like St. Peter, but I can also see his faults. He lives in the past much the same as I do, but I tend to come out into the present once in awhile but St. Peter prefers the past over the present or the future.

As stated I think all the characters have their good points and their faults, but the one character I like the most is Augusta. She is down to earth and practical and although she does make that one bad investment, most of the time she is the one character that I would like to "hang" with if I could. St. Peter I might admire, but probably from a distance. I doubt however that I could be as religious as she is.

The mother and daughters are to haughty and insecure for me.

Louie I like because again he is a practical man and without his wits, none of these people except perhaps the professor would be in the financial situation as they are in.

Scott to me is also insecure and is a snob to boot.

Tom also has his faults, but I'll commit later on him.

"...Eudora Welty wrote of Willa Cather that the uniqueness of her style resulted from her skill in not giving us "the landscape but her vision of it; we are looking at a work of art." ~ "Style: The Manner of Telling" Hallie and Whit Burnett.

Perhaps this is where Cather's style is. Not in relating what is really out there, but rather her particular "vision" of the social upheaval of the 1920s.

I can remember that my grandfather told me of the day in 1929 when he had first learned of the Crash. He said that he hadn't invested in the stock market until early October of that year, being a cautious man, but after seeing his friends and relatives getting rich he reasoned why not. The crash came shortly thereafter and as they say the rest is history.

What has been remarkable to me is the way that my family has always pulled themselves up by their boot-straps so to speak in the face of disasters and moved on with their lives.

I can see this in Cather's character Augusta as well and I hope St. Peter does the same, but only time will tell. The others seem to be content only with the present and think nothing of the future and for that matter think nothing of the past.

A quicky -- Sonata is often called sonata-allegro form which was a Classical-era instrumental form that allows for the introduction and development of two or more principal themes. Prior to the Sonata-allegro form the other Classical-era forms were homophonic.

*The Sonata-allegro form evolved as a dramatic conflict narrative between two or more themes and has four major divisions.

1. In the exposition the themes are introduced
2. In the development section the themes interact and are developed
3. In the recapitulation, the themes return in their original order but with important changes
4. The coda provides a convincing sense of conclusion.

the greater the contrast between the themes, the greater the potential for dramatic conflict during the movement.

Example Mozart's G Minor fourth movement - Theme one is brutal, dramatic using the minor scale. Theme two is lyrical and in the major scale. - The two themes contrast each other in key and the bridge is a non-thematic transition between the themes characterized by an unstable harmony and fragmented material. The exposition is seldom repeated. In order to appreciate this Mozart piece you need to anchor yourself in two stable keys before the development section.

The Sonata-allegro form is dramatic, related to contrasts and the scheme is Exposition, Development, Recapitulation, Coda.

Does that help when analyzing the structure of this book...

*http://www.songsofpeace.com/ncmcmusic/Mus214/lecture_eight.htm

Barbara--Yes, the information helps me. I am glad to have a definition of the Sonata since music is one of my great areas of weakness.

We'll have to argue the point as to whether or not this novel achieves sonata form or not once we have read the whole book.

Maryal

Barbara: I'm not sure what the musical terms I was taught and which are at a number of musical websites, like: http://www.songsofpeace.com/ncmcmusic/Mus214/lecture_eight.htm

have to do with the structure of this novel.

I don't believe I ever recall any crit analysis which used musical terms for novels.

Do you believe they're synonymous?

These are absolutely fascinating posts. I don't want to repeat what many have said, but I can't help but agree with just about everything Scootz has said concerning the whooping cough summer. As she pointed out with Cather's statements from that section, it was a good time for both of them. I think St. Peter, in looking back thinks fondly of that time and now cherishes what he now realizes was a unique opportunity for both Kathleen and him.

Jonathan, I would love to see that cover of Collier's. Perhaps Lillian was left off because she would make the cover off-center, or because the artist did not deem her important enough. I take it that Tom O was also missing?

Some of the things we're talking about here were still around in the 50's, 60 -- Collier's, furs and little fox heads. I know I'm so out of it I don't even know the Dixie Chicks, but does any woman under the age of 70 wear furs? Are those fur stoles that were worn with suits still around?

That section about the furs, the tension between Kathleen and Rosamond. Here is Kathleen excited about getting furs, has asked her father to look at some that she's received. And what does Rosamond do -- wear her ultra-expensive furs to Kathleen's house. I won't say she flaunted them, but the effect on Kathleen was the same. I care less and less for Rosamund.

No, Jonathan, not all Baptists are like Crane.There are a lot of them here and most of quite nice people, very unlike the Cranes. In a way I feel sorry for the Cranes -- doesn't mean I like them. They are so embittered by the fact that they have not become rich from the OUtland experiments. They will blame this on everything that is wrong with their lives.

My thoughts on Louie are still the same. Negative. Some will say he did nice things for the ST. Peters in Chicago. Yeah, but Louis was the man in charge. Although I do think the online version about Augusta's investment was a typo (not was left out) and he was not to blame for Augusta's loss.

Of all the characters, I think Rosamund is my least favorite. If pedln won't says she flaunted her furs, I shall! I think she did. I would think she knows her sister is sensitive about the money- it's just not appropriate to be constantly bringing up what she owns. I can't think what Tom saw in her but I guess we have to wait to get that answer. She and he just don't go together for me at this moment.

I think I read that Augusta was modelled after someone in Cather's life, as almost all her characters are- can't recall who she was now though.

Jonathan- I would also love to see that cover. Do you mean you have the actual magazine?

, Deems, for the photos of twenty's swim caps. I've just discovered an edition of TPH that has an illustration taken from the cover of COLLIER'S, dated June 6, 1925, announcing the first instalment of '"The Professor's House", A New Novel by Willa'(sic).

Jonathan, or anyone - what is TPH?

Jonathan, Do you know the illustrator of the picture?

Scootz: The Professor's House.

Thank you, Jonathan, for alerting us to this magazine cover. I persisted until I found it. Looks like maybe Tom is missing too.

I started hunting through Collier's covers on the web trying to find the cover Jonathan mentioned. I had a pleasant surprise. I found one of my husband's grandfather's Collier's covers. His name was Howard McCormick. He was a book and magazine illustrator and he painted the covers of many Collier's magazines.

http://www.magazineart.org/general/massweeklies/colliers/1906-1910/Colliers1908-04-23.html

I have not been able to find the Cather cover yet.

Oh, cool, PatW found it!!!! Fascinating!!!

I think TPH is Jonathan's shorthand for The Professor's House, and I would love to see that cover!

I don't like Rosamonde either. She has a cruel upper lip. And she certainly is flaunting. We're supposed to notice that she's been changed by money, aren't we? Her sister says so to their father.

jane--You can't see the sonata form yet (if there is one) because we haven't read far enough yet.

But the architecture of this novel is very strange indeed, she says without giving anything away.

~Maryal

Rosamond does have a cruel upper lip as we are told a number of times. Lillian has an unpleasant upper lip, also, as painted by Kathleen when she was younger. She just couldn't capture her mother without giving her that long upper lip. Maybe Rosamond is the image of Lillian, after all.

I'd like to discuss the satanic image of the Professor, now that I've seen this wonderful magazine cover.

Here is a section of how the Professor was first described physically in chapter 1:

"His wicked-looking eyebrows made his students call him Mephistopheles--and there was no evading the searching eyes underneath them; eyes that in a flash could pick out a friend or an unusual stranger from a throng. They had lost none of their fire...."

I think the artist of the Collier's cover has placed the Professor so that he generates a powerful Mephistophelian presence over some of the novel's key characters. He looms large and looks sinister. Wearing his red swimming helmet, he suggests to me a portrait of the devil manipulating those around him.

Here is info about Mephistopholes from Wikipedia:

"Mephistopheles (also Mephisto, Mephistophilus, Mephist, Murphy, Mephy, Murphy Stoffelis, and Mephistophilis as referred to in the original text) is a name given to one of the chief demons of Christian mythology that figure in European literary traditions. The name is frequently used as an alternative form of Satan or the Devil. Because the name Mephistopheles evolved during the Renaissance, Mephistopheles makes no appearance in the Bible. However, according to certain extra-biblical texts relating to Christian mysticism, and a number of related works written during the 17th century, Mephistopheles was the first to join with Lucifer during the rebellion against God at the beginning of time. When the rebel angels were banished from Heaven, Mephistopheles was the second to fall, after Lucifer. In exchange for his loyalty Lucifer granted him power in Hell, appointing him his second-in-command. The more common belief is that Mephistopheles was an angel that assisted God in the creation of the universe. He is known for the designing of orca whales, seals, and a few other ocean mammals typically working with a fellow angel named Cerenus. Eventually, he joined Lucifer's banner because of his jealousy for humans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephistopheles

Does anyone find the Professor to be Mephistophelian?

I do. Why does so much revolve around him? Why do people come to him to get things done? What was his relationship with Tom Outland, I'm really really wondering, Tom, the "glittering image," the good guy, the innocent cowboy.

Now I'm going to wonder if the Professor had anything to do with Tom's death.

I could be so totally off the mark.

Just for a refresher, here's the description of the Professor in his red bathing cap:

"When McGregor was ready to go in, his father-in-law was some distance out, swimming with an over-arm stroke, his head and shoulders well out of the water. He wore on his head a rubber visor of a kind he always brought home from France in great numbers. This one was vermilion, and was like a continuation of his flesh--his arms and back were burned a deep terra-cotta from a summer in the lake. His head and powerful reaching arms made a strong red pattern against the purple blue of the water. The visor was picturesque--his head looked sheathed and small and intensely alive, like the heads of the warriors on the Parthenon frieze in their tight, archaic helmets."

Great comments on it, Marni.

In glorious color. That red cap would really stand out, bobbing in the blue waters of Lake Michigan. And don't the girls look like their father?

So that's the man whose sorry plight Cather feels compelled to tell us about. Reluctant to make the move from an old house to a new. Even worse, if Lillian can be believed, in what she's trying to tell her husband with her

'One must go on living, Godfrey.'

Lillian is worried about her husband. She can see how much he has changed. Doesn't she say somewhere that he has become very irritable lately? And she has probably done most of the worrying over the years, as others have already mentioned in another context.

But Godfrey's mind dwells on other thoughts, during the opera:

'If she only knew how much more lovely she was when she wasn't doing her duty.' (ch

What a strange thought. This is a sad tale of a man whose character seems to be disintegrating. A man who feels his life is over. The past has been too rich, for him to expect it to continue. The future seems as unlovely as Lillian's face, or as unaccomadating as the new house.

He seems very preoccupied with what went wrong. His memories serve as a means of self-discovery. I was pleased to see HATS post the shipwreck vision:

"Later, at bedtime, Godfrey thinks of the shipwreck again. Oddly, Lillian isn't in the picture.

"Before he went to sleep he found the very day, but his wife was not in it. Indeed, nobody was in it but himself, and a weather-dried little sea captain from the Hautes-Pyrenees, half a dozen spry seamen, and a line of gleaming snow peaks, agonizingly high and sharp, along the southern coast of Spain."

Did the marriage end then? About the time he started on his big project? There does seem to be some foreshadowing flitting about in his thoughts. They also seem to be rich in symbols. We must try to get our resident Symbologist on this. Barbara, I wonder that Harvard hasn't invited you yet to join their department. You've got it all over Professor Langdon, of Da Vinci fame. I was sorry to see Sierra giving you a hard time:)

And thanks for your sonata post. A wonderful addition to Mippy's delightful post on the sonata. Post 261

I only hope that Cather's use of a musical term turns out to be more helpful in appreciating her literary construction than ST. Peter's use of dubious literary allusions did in conveying meaningful ideas of his romanic notions, his use of the Medea theme, for example, and McBeth's exhausted swimmers, and Othello's declaiming about eternal reckonings. Cather has certainly created a complex character in St. Peter.

I don't dislike Rosamund. I feel she is having problems adjusting to all her new wealth. Do you wear what is old? Do you flash the new? If I won the lottery, I wouldn't know how to act. Rosamund, I feel, is fighting with adjustment too, just like Kathleen. Really, the nouveau riche are always going to be classified as "show offs." If you have it don't you need to spend it? I don't think Rosamund is purposely trying to hurt Kathleen.

I have never heard of the play title. Is it Mignon? Would knowing more about the play help us to better understand the words between Godfrey and Lillian?

Cather throws so many names or titles around. I am sure none are written haphazardly. We have covered quite a few in the discussion. Cather mentions Goethe and Boxer Rebellion in China.

I feel dense. I just can't see Godfrey as particularly "evil." I see him as an explorer, anthropologist. If he could live his life over again, I think he would choose a different path. I see him as a man with regrets.

I can't quite equate the description of Mephistopheles with St. Peter. Of course, St. Peter's name reminds me of loyalty as well as betrayal.

There it is! In Pat's 282 post. Scootz you're a whiz for finding it.

Thanks Jonathan. So nice of you to say that. It took me a while to find but I was determined.

He looks just as I envisioned him from the description. The cover is flashy, for sure, but to me, it's not how I would represent the book, if I had to design a cover for it. Hmmmm, now what would my cover look like?

Thank you for researching the magazine cover.

In chapter ten while at dinner, Tom says "I think the very best is the old,-the cliff-dweller pottery,".....After feeling among them, he unwrapped one and displayed an earthen water jar, shaped like those common in Greek sculpture...."

Deems, in the beginning, I think you offered to give more detail about the poem "Ode to the Grecian Urn" by Keats. Is this the time? I am anxious to hear what you have to say about the Greek sculpture Tom discusses during dinner time.

Then, Tom goes on to talk about the pinon tree. "three hundred years old by their rings, growing up in the stone trail that leads to the ruins where I got it."

I love the details in "The Professor's House." Anyway, what does a pinon tree look like? It seems that Tom definitely left a mark on St. Peter. I think St. Peter remains attached to the old house because he feels the spirit of Tom. Tom felt an appreciation of the "old" in the same way as St. Peter.

Is St. Peter adjusting to his old age by continuing to surround himself with what is old? In this instance, the old house. Going to the "new" house might make him feel unnecessary. Where would he fit? The past is gone, no memories.

I keep forgetting to mention.. Ginny, In the old heavily underline in three color book, that I have:The professor( as always thinking) " The heart of another is a dark forest, always, no matter how close it has been to one's own". Alas this is the Professor thinking of his wife and I do find it a chilling thought. He is such a distant man.. I think Kathleen is the only human that he feels a relationship with at this point.. And not much of one.

Whee, Thanks, Jonathan, Scootz, and Pat. It's great to see that Collier's cover.

A few days ago Ginny asked some questions about patents. My brother has had considerable experience with them so I emailed him for some input and answers. His reply was a bit long for a post, but Jane has put it on the SeniorNet server and it is available at the URL below. Thanks Jane, and Ed.

Patents, by Ed

" The heart of another is a dark forest, always, no matter how close it has been to one's own".

Glad you mentioned this phrase, Stephanie. It struck me, too. Sort of like heart of Darkness. I think it's true- rather sinister in thought, but I do agree we never really "know" another completely.

You're welcome hats, and pedln.

I don't believe that statement. I have it marked in my book too. It's a very heavy statement. I think it's a general statement made by Godfrey about his marriage to Lillian. Maybe it's one more of his regrets. The time wasted, time not really getting to know one another hearts during their marriage.

" The heart of another is a dark forest, always, no matter how close it has been to one's own".

Maybe I am deceived. I feel it is possible to find a friend, lover, wife or husband with whom you can share every part of yourself. This doesn't happen often in a lifetime. I think it is possible. Maybe even between mother and daughter or son and mother.

I do think this statement fits this family. Each one is shut off from the other person in the family. I don't even feel there is deep intimacy in the marriages.

hats-

Here is a picture of a pinyon pine. From what I read, many have been wiped out because of severe drought. This one is in Utah, but the ones in our book were from Arizona.

Pinyon Pine

Wow! Thank you! She gives a lot of atmosphere, I hope that's the word, in her book, doesn't she? I think this is my favorite book by her. Maybe I didn't take the time to appreciate the other books. I am really liking this one.

I am keeping your thoughts about "hands" in mind too. I just read another instance about hands. I am glad you brought it to our attention.

Marni, I like the Professor too much to consider him the devil, or one who manipulates. I don't see manipulation on his part at all. However, when I first saw the cover, Mephistopheles was what came to mind.

And speaking of "lips," we have not only Rosamund's cruel upper lip and Lillian's lip that Kathleen could never get right, but also Crane's lips which were the same thickness throughout. I'm having a hard time picturing that.

Thanks, Pedln, for asking Ed for that explanation of patents. These things are never as simple as a layman would imagine them to be, are they?

I guess of the characters I find Rosamund to be the least likeable as she is now. She does, indeed, seem to be changed by the money. Maybe people who inherit great wealth when they've not lived with wealth all their lives are often changed by it. She does seem, to me, to have a lot of Lillian in her.

I'm not sure, however, how long she's been married now to Louie? How long since Tom was killed did Rosamund find/marry Louie? Was he wealthy before or just since the development of whatever it is that Tom patented and that Rosamund benefited from by inheritance? Have I missed that info somewhere along the line? Am I correct in thinking these girls are just a couple years apart and are, now, perhaps in their late 20s/early 30s??? Scott and Louie are of a similar age???

pedln,

I will definitely look at your patent page later when I get a chance. Thanks for posting it.

Pedln, I would like to say thank you too. The word "patent" scares me to death. I'm afraid of not understanding what's being said.

While Tom holds the turquoises, St. Peter studies Tom's hand.

"Hold them still a moment," said the Professor, looking down, not at the turquoises, but at the hand that held them: the muscular, many-lined palm, the long, strong fingers with soft ends, the straight little finger, the flexible, beautifully shaped thumb that curved back from the rest of the hand as if it were its own master."

Scootz, how many times, I wonder, are hands written about throughout the book? Impossible to know, I guess. After studying Tom's hand, what did the professor see? I have heard it said that our hands tell our character.

I love the idea of free Friday, Ginny. Gives me the excuse/opportunity to go back over the week's reading and see what I missed or want to comment on for one last go.Then, weekends, I reread the next week's reading and I'm ready to go. I like your organization, I must say! (insert Ed Grimley voice here)let's see if anyone knows who Ed Grimley is.

Back later with my comments on these chapters- I have quite a few but errands await!

I'm having quite a difficult time NOT reading this book to the end. I'm very anxious to see how it wraps up.

Someone wrote about 33 posts back (sorry, lost the name on the post)
Does any woman under the age of 70 wear furs? Are those fur stoles that were worn with suits still around?
The short answer is yes, in Florida; yes, at temperatures in the 60s where furs are sure not, IMO, needed. But many women under 70 years old own furs from their Northern homes, and when they come to Florida for the winter months, they wear them to concerts, etc.; not my taste, obviously

Someone started to post about movie actors. What actor could play St. Peter. Marnie posted: He looms large and looks sinister. How about that actor who played Edward Scissorhands? Johnny Depp? Is he old enough to play a man in his 50s?

Pedln ~ you posted:
I like the Professor too much to consider him the devil, or one who manipulates.
I do agree he is not a heavy enough man to be like the Devil, nor would the Devil worry about not being able to cope with life. St. Peter just reminds me of a lot of self-centered men I have known and not liked.

Ginny ~ you said you feel like Diogenes. Show me an honest man here?
Doesn't that feeling make you the super discussion leader that you are! You are always saying: show me this, show me that! Are you sure you don't have some relatives in the Show-Me State?
What a great quote, where Shakespeare has Mark Antony say: My fortunes have corrupted honest men.
Will we find that the invention of Tom has done that? Corrupted Mrs. Crane, for one.
What did Mark Antony mean? Did he mean that he was the most logical heir to Julius Caesar, but everyone
(at least about 22 other men) also wanted to be Caesar's heir? Is this relevant to this novel? How about another hint of your thoughts on this, Ginny?

I'm so excited about the Colliers cover!

Thank you Jonathan and Scootz and Pat W!

Why is the professor the main character on the cover?

Well, could it be that he IS the main character and the others are only his satelites? It is him we follow throughout the book (or the thoughts in his head). The others, the wife, the daughters, the sons-in-law, the colleagues drop in periodically and gives us glimpses of themselves, sort of in short-hand, but they are not developed.

The narration here is third person limited and is limited mostly to the professor. Later, with Tom Outland, there will be a complication, but right now, there's just the professor.

Hats--Still not time for Keats' "Ode on a Grecian Urn." I haven't forgotten. Bring it up next week.

~Maryal

And I read them all...Thanks to everyone for the links to explanations ...that always adds something Like a bonus.

I had five hours in a doctors office Thursday and since I knew it would be long between tests etc I took my book to re read what we have discussed thus far I am so caught up with these people I am not ready to see whether I am right or wrong.

I have a tendency to like people who have a PURPOSE in life which I feel the professor has ...he was a professor at a local college, He liked his garden , he enjyed his children when they were small which for many is the ONLY time they enjoyed them , He was INTERESTED in other places, He gave his time to writing a series of books that in beginning not well recieved and still he felt he had to write and I think he was surprised to become famous enough to recieve money for his efforts since that was not his purpose,

He asked Tom how old he was and Tom said 20 but he really didnt know since he was orphaned when young and had no idea when he was born, He worked from the time he was big enough Not old enough but big enough He was appreciative of the family that took him in and while living in the different places he had this enormous curiosity about the area, He studied Latin with a priest well enough to satisfy the professor and was able to absorb enough higher math in what was it? 4mos ? to apparantly satisfy the college he wanted to attend, When they speak of 'little girls " I think the girls must have been teenagers when Tom arrived on the scene because later when Kathleen and the professor are talking about Tom he says to her I do not have my book handy but it seemed to me he said Tom was unlike the other college boys wasnt he? Now that makes me think other boys were interested in the girls as well and Tom was going to marry Rosamund so there cant have been too many years separating them.

Now all the women in the story except Augusta I find incredibly dull and purposeless ..THeir father was a professor ! Where did their education end? they sound juvenile in the extreme to me ..Caring only about what kind of clothes they wore and what furs they shuold buyAll thier pouting and hatefulness to each other makes me want to scream..Sound like they are still teenagers and I think the teenagers I am seeing in my area are far more interested in life and what is going on than these married womean AND Lillian is certainly not the hostess with the mostest She insults her son in law who she alternately flirts with and accepts his generosity by telling him the dinner he has been invited to will be the things SCOTT likes She almost dares him to complain,. What about being thoughtful and making a dish Louie would enjoy as well and NOT mentioning that most of these dishes were ones Scott liked and not Louie HOW rude ..and if I had known any of these women I would have avoided them like the plague ..AUGUSTA and I on the other hand would have been great friends We both sew We both design , We both go to church , We both like to talk to the professor because he treats her as a person not as a sort of one level up from a maid or a housekeeper. Kathleen does see she is down and finds out her problem with the investment and in my book it says Louie inquired into her request and advised her AGAINST investing..While it doesnt say what Louie said except through Rosamunds reply to her sister;s suggestion they help Augusta .

And what kind of education did Lillian have ? Whatever she had she seems to have steeped herself in being a PROFESSORS WIFE and a mother and never read another book or had another thought except how the girls were dressed etc What about volunteering? I had so many aunts and uncles and neighbors who would have been in that age bracket and they were always doing something interesting. So I have to ask what is CAther trying to tell us..? Now that has piqued my interest and am anxious to read the next chapters to see if any of this changes,.

By the way I am with the professor when looking at the stones in Tom;s hands They are stones but the hand is different had to be unlike his own and the other professional people he knew When I was young my aunts and uncles hands fascinated me I couldnt wait to get all of those lines and blue veins that stood out Mine were so pale and smooth ..uninteresting I would take their hands when I sat next to them and touch each blemish and mark and feel how wonderful it would be to have such hands.

Off to clean house for company a great niece who just graduated from college with a degree in graphic arts and a minor in French She and her husband and two small children arrive early next week for a visit. She is someone I admire . Someone who loves her husband and her children but is alive to continuing learning and to her family who cheered her on..anna

Anna-I was just about to post about the lack of reading and doing of the feminine members of the Professprs family when you did it in a much more inclusive way. However as I was reading your post and then what I was going to write I came up with the thought that the simplest person can have a rich inner life if the author chooses to give him/her one.

This thought entered my mind(prompted by Ginny's questions) Perhaps Cather is not giving them an inner life because we would develop a sympathy for them. Since we are barely aware of their pain and suffering we get only their superficial worries relating to external problems of furs and food and wealth.

Since each person in the novel is fiction we have to return to the thought that Cathers purpose was to get us to concentrate on the Professor and Tom and keep the rest as secondary. Of course I'm not sure of this.

However giving minor characters an inner life and depth as great authors do is a special talent. Although I like the book and am extremely curious to find out what happens I don't feel that this is a "great book" or that Cather can be compared to George Elliot or Dickens. However I would need to read at least two more books by Cather to really give an informed opinion.

Judy

Chapter 13: "The park was deserted. The arc-lights were turned off. The leafless trees stood quite motionless in the light of the clear stars. The world was sad to St. Peter as he looked about him; the lake-shore country flat and heavy, Hamilton small and tight and airless. The university, his new house, his old house, everything around him, seemed insupportable, as the boat on which he is imprisoned seems to a seasick man. Yes, it was possible that the little world, on its voyage among the stars, might become like that; a boat on which one could travel no longer, from which one could no longer look up and confront those bring rings or revolution."

This is very melodramatic, but still it does give the sense of someone in a depressed mood. A forshadowing perhaps of what is to come. Keeping in mind that Cather's descriptions were of her own vision, one can't help wonder whether or not that what Cather is describing is how she really felt. Did she feel that she too was imprisoned?

According to her biographer, "With increasing age Cather became convinced that the beliefs and way of life she valued were disappearing."

"Cather taught English in a Pittsburg high school from 1901 to 1906 which coincided, in part, with her 12-year relationship with Isabelle McClung. By concealing her relationships with the women she loved, including Louise Pound, Isabella McClung, and Edith Lewis, the latter of whom was in a domestic partnership with her that lasted 40 years, Cather also concealed the ways in which these women possibly contributed to and nourished her creative writing abilities.

Cather died in 1947 in New York, in the apartment she shared with Edith Lewis, and is buried in Jaffrey, New Hampshire. At the time of her death, she ordered her personal letters burned."

Now, let us go back to the passage where St. Peter is thinking about "the world was sad". Do you see a correlation between St. Peter's thinking and what Cather might have thought? Was the "voyage among all the stars" in reality her own?

And, finally what did St. Peter mean [when he or Cather] said: "...a boat on which one could travel no longer, from which one could no longer look up and confront those bright rings or revolution"?

Annafair probably says it for many readers. How did it ever come to this in the professor's house? It was a happy family once, but now it's flying apart. St. Peter is losing them all, despite clinging to the forms in his attic room. What is the corruption to come out of another's fortune? Greed, envy, jealousy, etc. Cather wants us to be disturbed'

For a Free Friday contribution I would like to add to what Scrawler has brought up in her post 315. Aspects of Cather's life which might be relevant to the book. I would like to quote from the book WILLA CATHER, by Susie Thomas:

'The old house is cold, inconvenient and shabby but it is the place where the children were born and where the Professor had done his most important work. He is reluctant to move and continues to rent the old house in order to use the attic study. His wife cannot understand this. Critics too have been baffled and have sought explanations in Cather's own life.

'In 1916 Isabelle McClung married the violinist, Jan Hambourg, to whom the novel is dedicated and on whom Louie Marsellus is said to be based. Cather was devastated by Isabelle's marriage and although they remained friends - Cather even came to like Ian Hambourg - it was one of the most traumatic events in her life.

'She not only lost her friend's exclusive affection, but the attic sewing room in Isabelle's house where she had worked for over fifteen years. The Hambourgs wanted to build a study for her in their marital home but Cather refused as she felt she could not work there, just as the Professor declines the offer of a study in the Marsellus's new house.' p116

Jan came from a musical family that settled in Toronto, after arriving from Europe. Jan must have given a concert in Pittsburgh, which led to the marriage. I believe we still have a Hambourg School of Music here.

Interesting Jonathan, isn't it when you begin to look at Cather's life and see how it all figures so strongly in her books? I think it was you who said at the outset that you could find all you needed to know about her in her writing- that is so true for Cather, but when you investigate a bit, you see how she and her writing are entwined.

Maybe this is true of all authors? I honestly have no idea. I've never actually been so taken with a writer before as to really investigate their life, want to read everything they wrote, etc. I still have so many more of hers to read. And there's a wealth of information on all her books, and on her just a mouse click away. It'll keep me busy for quite some time.

We've read a bit about the ancient Indian artifacts that Tom found in the Southwest and we will be reading more about ancient cliff dwellings. I took some pictures of some ancient cliff villages when I visited the Southwest several years ago. I thought I'd add links to several of the pictures for those of you who haven't seen what they look like. They may help you to visualize the dwellings. Here goes:

1. Cliff village of Mesa Verde in Colorado, near "Four Corners" where New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, and Arizona meet:

http://discussions.seniornet.org/webx?233@217.wUCFaIWCkhv.4310@.8622bab7/1001!enclosure=.862462bd

2. Inside Mesa Verde, view of the overhanging rock rim:

http://discussions.seniornet.org/webx?233@217.wUCFaIWCkhv.4310@.8622bab7/1002!enclosure=.862462be

3. View down into canyon from above Mesa Verde cliff village:

http://discussions.seniornet.org/webx?233@217.wUCFaIWCkhv.4310@.8622bab7/1003!enclosure=.862462bf

4. "Montezuma's Castle" cliff house in Arizona:

http://discussions.seniornet.org/webx?233@217.wUCFaIWCkhv.4310@.8622bab7/1004!enclosure=.862462c0

Marni somehow the first of your wonderful photos reminds me of St. Peter pulling the mountain in around him like a cloak and living within the confines of what he knows with no new adventures planned for his life.

The Collier cover is wonderful - thanks for finding it - just wonderful - to me it looks like St. Peter is the most important bridge between his two married children and their spouses.

Hmmm are his values the lightening rod that everyone is dancing around I wonder.

Wow - yes, an idea - let me get my trusty book - but something about mountains being the axis mundi as is a ship's mast - let me find this stuff.

OK yes, Mountain: a world center, an omphalos, 'through which the polar axis runs and round which glide the dragons of the cosmic powers.' These highest points of the earth are regarded as central, the summit of Paradise, the meeting place in the clouds of heaven and earth, reaching up 'on high'. As axial and central in provides passage from one plane to another and communion with the gods: it is also the support and abode of the gods, the embodiment of cosmic forces and life; the rocks are bones, the streams blood, the vegetation the hair and clouds the breath.

The mountains symbolizes constancy, eternality, firmness, stillness Mountain tops are associated with sun, rain, and thunder gods and in early traditions of the feminine godhead, the mountain was the earth and female, with the sky, clouds, thunder and lightening as the fecundating male. Mountain tops represent the sate of full consciousness. The mountain is the 'navel of the waters' since the fountain of all waters springs from it. Temples built into the mountain symbolize the Cosmic Center. In Christian art the four rivers issue from the sacred mountain and the throne of God.

Ships or boats: carry the sun and moon across the seas, and the earth is a boat floating on the primordial waters. As bearers of the sun and moon ships represent fecundity and the fertility of the waters, they also signify adventure, exploration, setting out on the sea of life, but also, crossing the waters of death sharing the bridge symbolism that of the Pontifex Maximus, crossing from this world to the next.

Snow: Coldness, frigidity, hardness of heart.

Ship of life setting out on the waters of creation. The mast [I thought I remembered sure enough] is the axis mundi and shares the significance of the Tree of Life. [the Tree of Life and the Tree of knowledge grow in Paradise. the Tree of life is at the centre=re and signifies regeneration, the return to a primordial state of perfection. It is the cosmic axis transcending good and evil,]

these are not from the book but my thought -
St. Peter's Ship Captain - Whitman 1888
"O Captain! My Captain! our fearful trip is done;
The ship has weather'd every rack, the prize we sought is won;
The port is near, the bells I hear, the people all exulting,
While follow eyes the steady keel, the vessel grim and daring:
But O heart! heart! heart!
O the bleeding drops of red,
Where on the deck my Captain lies,
Fallen cold and dead.

Seaman - maybe the apostles?? After all he is named St, Peter !!??

Someplace the many references to hands was mentioned - from the book again Hands: One of the most symbolically expressive members of the body. According tho Aristotle the hand is "the tool of tools", Quintilian says, ' the hands may almost be said to speak. Do not use them to Demand, Promise, Summon , Dismiss, threaten, Supplicate , Express Aversion or Fear, Question or Deny - do not use them to indicate joy, sorrow, hesitation, confession, penitence, measure, quantity, number, and time - Have they not the power to excite and prohibit, to express approval, wonder and shame. Hands signify power, strength, providence, blessing, pushes away eviland trouble, Open hands bounty, liberality, justice, Placed on another's pledge of service.

The right hand is the 'hand of power', Josephus writes: None of them will deceive you when they have given the right hands nor will anyone doubt their fidelity.

The left hand is the passive aspect of power, receptivity; it is often associated with theft and cheating.

There is tons more on the hands according to where it is placed, how many fingers, and all the principle cultures have their special symbolic meaning for the hand.

Wow get this - the symbol for a Helmet: Protection; preservation; the attribute of a warrior or hero. In heraldic symbolism the helmet denotes hidden thoughts. An attribute of Ares/Mars as war and of Athens/Minerva as thought; it is also an emblem of Hades/Pluto as the helmet of darkness [someone shared that already]

St. Peter's helmet is red -
Red: represents the sun and all the war gods. It is the masculine, active, principle; fire; the sun; royalty; love, joy; festivity; passion; ardor; energy; ferocity; sexual excitement; the bridal torch or fire; health; strength; blood; bloodlust; anger; vengeance; martyrdom; fortitude; faith; magnaniminity. The desert and calamity; renewal of life; Gods are often painted red to denote supernatural power/sacredness; solar power; the third stage of the Great Work; Christ's passion; fire of Pentecost; zeal in faith; priestly power; and cruelty/ the color of Ares as war, Priapus the Red God; Apollo as solar and Mars as war; the sun god Baal.

I guess I'm not sure that the characters are corrupted, but maybe that's just because I see that word as meaning more than I see as issues with these characters. I don't see what I would call "evil/depraved" people, at least at this point in my reading. I do see jealousy. I don't believe that money is the root of all evil. I believe it's how people react to having it or not having it that is the problem. Money, like fame/celebrity status, seems to bring out what I think are character issues perhaps more vividly than they are otherwise. I think it's the envy/jealousy of others that also brings out their character issues.

I also think the Professor is the "lead" character. He is the one I think I "know" best. We know he and Lillian met in Paris where both were students, but I don't think I know anything more about Lillian's background/education/areas of interest, nor do I know these things of the girls.

One of the questions above asked who is not disappointed? I guess Louie is the only one who doesn't seem to act out or express disappointment. On the surface he seems quite happy with the way things are going in his life.

jane

Barb, Of course, I was especially interested in the "hands" symbolism. Thanks for that.

I had some thoughts for Free Friday which I hadn't posted yet so I hope it's ok for today. Just didn't get to it yesterday. I'm using my voice recognition software, so watch for homonyms.

page 80-81-

Lillian chides the professor about continuing to keep the house so that he has a place to work, and mentions the extravagance of this. And days this thing just doesn't work on professor replies, fiercely that it is this almost his only extravagance. I agree with him and feel that Lillian has her new house and shouldn't be begrudging him his room since it was after all this work enabled any of it to be possible.

p. 87-in the story of no buying the flowers in France, it says,

"... but all his life he regretted that he didn't buy two bunches, and push their fortunes a little further."

This to me points up his regrets about so many things, but in particular here his regret is that he didn't help more. Evidence to me of a good soul.

p 94- Scott speaks about Tom as a "glittering idea"-almost like a flash in the pan. The Professor was troubled by this and I think even a little hurt. Later, on page 112, he asks Kathleen to stay and talk with him about Tom. He and Kathleen do seem to share a bond when it comes to Tom. And Kathleen proclaims, " yes, and now he's all turned out chemicals in dollars and cents, hasn't he? But not for you and me! Our Tom is much nicer than theirs."

pp 95-107- finally, we get to know something of Tom as the professor reflects back on Tom's introduction into the family, prompted by the glittering idea remark. Fascinating, that the first place they meet is in the garden. We come to know that Tom is an orphan- which right off the bat engenders sympathy, and sets Tom up to have to make his own way in the world and be independent. (commonly used by Dickens in his books)

p 104- of Tom- "But St. Peter held the boy at arms length. As a young teacher full of zeal, he had been fooled more than once. He knew that the wonderful seldom holds water, that brilliancy has no staying power, and the unusual becomes commonplace by a natural law."

Here we see some cynicism on the professor's part. He has come not to believe in the permanence of things- not riches, not glory, not his marriage, or his family. Life has somehow taught him not to trust that things will last, or that they will remain the same.

p 107- "St. Peter reflected that those first years, before Outland had done anything remarkable, were really the best of all. " Another example, in my opinion, of how his life mirrors Toms. He then goes on to reflect upon the early years of his family life when things were more carefree.

p 108- I was surprised that when the Professor mentions the bee sting incident to Kathleen, she doesn't even respond. Apparently, it meant more to him than to her and after all Kathleen is there to talk about Augusta.

p112-and Kathleen and her father have a very strong bond. They even had similar dreams to run off and look for Rodney Blake themselves. Kathleen considers Tom's Mesa, entirely her own now. As she leaves, the Professor stands watching her, " trying to fasten upon some fugitive idea." Is he contemplating the 'glittering idea" himself, wondering what it all means?

I thought I might mention this- that Collier's magazine with PROFESSOR'S HOUSE cover is on sale at ebay. The bidding ends tomorrow. I wasn't interested because the seller didn't use PayPal, but I suddenly thought someone here might be a collector and like to bid on it. I'm not much of a collector myself- unless you count books.

Barbara,

Thank you for more on the symbolism of "hands."

"Since Rosamond's marriage to Marsellus, both she and her mother had changed bewilderingly in some respects-changed and hardened. But Louie, who had done the damage, had not damaged himself. It was to him that one appealed,...for the bruised feelings of people less fortunate."

So, is Louie is the one with the most character of all the other people in the book? If so, what does he have that others don't have? How does he look at life?

Thanks for whoever posted about Willa Cathers life when she was writing about the professor. There are certainly clear parallels with the book. She is really forcing us to consider the professor as first since he is the only one thus far that we know what he thinks and wants. He is in a clear depression and if Louie is modeled after the new husband of Isabelle, you can see why. Did Willa consider her life as the professors? I really find myself more and more looking at her to see where she is going with the book. I am busy reading for next week at this point, but hopefully am not mentioning anything that happens in the next chapters.

I came upon this yesterday and thought it was of interest to us:

This is from an essay that Cather wrote entitled "Katherine Mansfield".

"One realizes that even in harmonious families there is this double life: the group life, which is the one we can observe in our neighbors household, and, underneath, another secret and passion and intense -- which is the real life that stamps the faces and gives character to the voices of our friends. Always in his mind each member of these social units is escaping, running away, trying to break the net which circumstances, and his own affections have woven about him. One realizes that human relationships are the tragic necessity of human life; that they can never be wholly satisfactory, that every ego is half the time greedily seeking them and half the time pulling away from them."

That's quite a window into Cather's feelings about relationships.

Scootz--This is off-topic, but does your voice recognition software cause letters to appear on your screen when you talk? I'm fascinated.

deems- some days, this voice-recognition program works perfectly with out a hitch. Other days, it seems to be really trying to mess with my mind by misinterpreting everything I say!! LOL

I use it if I know I'm going to be typing for a long time, because I have so much problem with my neck lately- ditto my wrists.

But to answer your question -- yes. It can insert things, and it can misread things. You will always have to go back and make some corrections, and it improves its accuracy. The more you use it. See there? It made a new sentence there, because I paused.

Thanks, Scootz. I still go around open-mouthed at all the stuff that is available now. I pause a lot when I'm writing--and often in the middle of a sentence--so I'd have to get used to it. And I don't need one yet, but I like to keep up.

My problem there is that I think I have the "automatic punctuation" set to "on" and don't recall how to disengage it! LOL

I can't type at all, except hunt and peck, so I look down at the keyboard- very, very bad for my neck. This way, I can sit up straight like I should and save both my neck and my hands. It is well worth the problems for me.

I have a question for you. I know you teach but I'm not sure what you teach and I am guessing it's literature? At any rate, I see this one the back of my SONG OF THE LARK

"The time will come when she'll be ranked above Hemingway."- on Cather, by one Leon Edel (who he?)

I don't think she has, do you? Why does she not get the glory she so deserves, at least imho? I never even heard of her till the last few years and there does seem to be a resurgence of her popularity? What do you think about this?

I have been reading a lot in the Cather archives website and yesterday I read a paper on THE PROFESSOR'S HOUSE detailing all the symbolism, parallels, etc. It's fascinating- but I never knew she was so deep. The layers go way beyond anything I imagined and I didn't get this impression at all of her from O! PIONEERS I'd be interested in your input here.

Scootz--Yes, I teach English and Edel is chiefly known for his multi-volume biography of Henry James. I can't remember exactly how many volumes off the top of my head. He would, given his particular attachment to James, prophesy that in the long run, Cather would trump Hemingway.

I don't think this prophecy will be borne out in the long run though because even if you like the way Cather writes or appreciate her subject matter more,Hemingway permanently influenced the way writing is written.

~Maryal

After learning what we know about Cather's relationships with other women, why do you think she portrayed Lillian and her daughters, and Mrs. Crane the way she did? I think someone here said that Augusta was patterned after someone she knew. If so Augusta seems to be the only character besides Louie that has a practical side to her. All the other characters seem to have the "Me, me!" attitude. Augusta and Louie on the other hand have given themselves to others. If neither of these characters were in the novel, how very sad this novel would be. Of course, I don't know enough about Tom Outland to make a decision about him, but the way the other characters are responding to him makes me wonder if he shouldn't have been St. Tom instead of St. Peter.

Interesting Hemingway permanently influenced the way writing is written - Deems without a big lecture and taking us completely away from this book would you share a way that Hemingway has influenced writers to write differently than say the way Cather writes.

Scotz did you find the paper on the internet - would you email the URL or share it here - the paper you read sounds fascinating and I would love to read it -

Because of looking up the symbolism of the boat and the mountains, I am getting this picture of St. Peter almost like a monk. As if he left his family to become, a priest/monk focused on his history of Spain - that is not only his life's work using his brain but, like a monk, his life is organized.

A monk has certain prayers at specific times during the day - St. Peter kept his family life, teaching life, and writing life separate and his attic "cell" was simple with familiar things surrounding him - The dress forms - our minds could stretch to think of statues in a monastery.

A monk has few private possessions - they live very simply and devote all their lives to their work and prayer. Most monasteries to this day have large gardens. Once a monk enters the monastery he cannot leave, he must stay there for the rest of his life. They are not allowed to wander far from the monastery and cannot go from monastery to monastery.

I see him having emotionally left his family when he left them in France as he traveled to France for this spiritual journey. The difference in real life, where there are Catholic orders that accept married men it must be with the consent of the married partner and only after the children are grown. Then I do not read that this was a complete selfish act for our St. Peter - it was as if something came over him and the calling is what he followed.

As to the name St. Peter, I am seeing him as a balancing act - as the pop culture view we have of a St. Peter at the gate - balancing the books and judging each characters. No matter the situation, he thinks it through not in awe and wonder but balancing out the affect - the rise in statue at the college in competition with another professor - the meal that was enjoyed by his compatriots in Chicago but beyond his means and paid for by Marcellus.

I think you are correct in saying he is more at ease with Kathleen with her glass doorknobs -

Glass/Crystal: purity; spiritual perfections and knowledge; the self-luminous. The magic powers and symbol of the Great Spirit; the passive spirit of the will [the sword is the active aspect] a glass or crystal ball denotes the world of the light of God.

Kathleen must be representing the spiritual side of his nature where as Rosumand represents the marketing showmanship side that for St. Peter is like the side of him that wanted the recognition that he finally received for his life's work, his history of Spain. He is a mix of both -

hmmm I am writing this while thinking aloud these new thoughts on this - I need to go back and read the kind of doorknobs that Marcellus was proud they were having installed in the new house.

If like a Sonata, we have strong opposing themes I wonder what they are. I would include this money versus the arts - which also would include the display of money although, the display of art also seems to be considered vulgar - hmmm does that make the jewels, a piece of art to be admired, only affordable to those with money and therefore they are less - not admired for their artistic value??? We have Rosumand not comfortable wearing the jewels and others seeing them as a show of money rather than a show of artistic endeavor.

Hmmm the whole issue of art is mixed with "having" money - the money buys the architecturally designed house that is not limited to "glass" doorknobs.

Is he and Lillian also a mix of the spiritual and art versus the showmanship and money? It is true we do hear little about her from her point of view - we have his point of view on Lillian - we do not even have the girls’ point of view. Yep, St. Peter is the axis mundi of this story so far - everything twirls around him - he is the center of this - so far, though what are the various themes?

Deems, you said:

I don't think this prophecy will be borne out in the long run though because even if you like the way Cather writes or appreciate her subject matter more,Hemingway permanently influenced the way writing is written.

And how is that? since I don't know Hemingway at all.

Oh sorry, posted that before I read your post, Barbara. I would be happy to post it, or email it to you. I finished the book yesterday- I coudln't help myself- and I knew that I wanted to read that paper after I finished it. I planned to post it later, because it is full of spoilers, of course, if you haven't finished. Let me know if you'd like me to email it to you. The entire site is great- but in depth. You have to be wanting to go that deep. This paper is about as deep as I want to get, I think.

I'll be glad to make a few points about the famous Hemingway style that influenced generations of writers after him, and I promise no lectures.

But first, I have gone and gathered four sentences from the first two pages of A Farewell to Arms. The first sentence is the first sentence of the novel, the second the first sentence of the third paragraph, and so on.

Look at them for a while and figure out what they have in common. I'm going out now with my daughter to do a little shopping, but I'll be back later.

Sentences from A Farewell to Arms (1929)

In the late summer of that year we lived in a house in a village that looked across the river and the plain to the mountains.

Sometimes in the dark we heard the troops marching under the window and guns going past pulled by motor-tractors.

There were small gray motor cars that passed going very fast; usually there was an officer on the seat with the driver and more officers in the back seat.

There were small gray motor cars that passed going very fast; usually there was an officer on the seat with the driver and more officers in the back seat.

Forget about the content here and think about the sentences themselves, the units that compose them.

You do not have to know how to diagram to do this--that's a joke because I never could diagram an interesting sentence, nor did I see any point to it other than making a sometimes interesting looking design.

~Maryal

Ginny,

Thank you for the beautiful photos. wow!

Ginny, I haven't read your post and here's why. I couldn't get past the "I'm going to miss this discussion". What, what, WHAT?? Please tell me you're not leaving as group leader here? That better not be happening, girl, or I am going to be upset.

I am going to see you for TEACHER MAN, but won't be doing anything here in June. have to discuss THE WAY WE LIVE NOW else where, doncha know?

If Ginny isn't coming back, I'm not coming back either.

Ginny,

I always try to write hints hoping someone will pick up on it and help out. I never find the right information.

Aren't we all wondering the same thing? It's possible to see so much in it. Perhaps that was what struck Leon Edel about Cather's work, and led him to suggest that Cather might someday outrank Hemingway. Edel completed a bio of Cather that was left unfinished by E.K.Brown. Pub. 1953.

'I've never been so taken by a writer.' Me, too. Scootz.

Marni, thanks so much for the links to Mesa Verde. Magnificent. They have to be seen, to be struck with awe. I was there with the family, when the kids were small, about 35 years ago. Cather's visit there set things in motion, ending with The Professor's House.

Barbara, post 319 on certain symbols was most interesting. I now have the answer if I'm asked why I would like to climb a mountain. And reading about the symbolism in the color of red, I was struck by how many of those Pamuk displayed in his book, My Name Is Red.

And speaking of Pamuk's book, I would like to remind Scootz of Shekure not being sure of what she really was thinking. I had to think about that when you were posting about the difficulty with your voice recognition software...'I have to go back and make corrections'...Don't be too hasty. Listen to what the software is picking up listening to you. It's just trying to read you, isn't it?

Jane, I also have a problem with the talk about 'corruption'. And I think you addressed it very well. None of the characters is corrupt. It's in St. Peter's head, isn't it. The world has turned ugly for him.

Scrawler, I liked what you said about Louie and Augusta. I have Augusta supplying St. Peter with an anscestoral voice. But Louie? St. Peter admires some things about him, except for his values pertaining to acquisition and consumpion.

Hats, that's interesting. The thought that it's Louie who has done the 'damage', in St. Peter's mind.

And another good symbolic consideration of St. Peter's place in the novel. Especially the implied thought, along with so many other's, that it is Peter who holds the keys to the Kingdom. If he could only find the Kingdom.

Was Cather herself searching for it with this novel?

I read somewhere that Cather was criticized for her "allusions" and so tried to cut down on them. What was it like before she cut down on the allusions? Yikes!

I'm off to din din and a movie- I'll post my replies in the a.m. Jonathan, so glad you like her too.

Ginny- give a person a warning when you threaten to leave for heaven's sake. My BP went off the charts!good luck with your bike- sounds like you have the same one I do. Mine is up in the guest room. Need I say more? I'd much rather do my pool exercises. But you may like it.

Ginny....

Want to share your views of Lillian? In what way do you see her starting a new life?

I'll have to think about that. Somehow, off the top of my head, I don't see anybody starting any sort of new life. Kathleen, Scott, Rosamund, Louis, and Lillian just seem to be continuing down the same road they've been on. Prof. St. Peter seems to be pulling back on his heels as if not to be dragged into anything new.

jane

She states: "Are ANY of the characters in this book innocent of doing damage to others?"

Is anybody at all innocent of doing damage to others within a family? Is such a family even possible? Or do we do damage and ask for forgiveness because that's part of the human condition?

. . . I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

In my own case I'm thrilled to often spend Christmas Day alone, not only because Christmas has become a meaningless day in the world, but because there was so much turmoil in my own family due to my parents' divorce and remarriages, and continued enmity over the years that it became a fine balancing act every year, every holiday. It wore me out. To have a quiet Christmas to spend any way I like, just me and my dog, is a blessing now.

I don't see that as strange in the least, or abnormal. I see it as a freedom from family stress and tensions of people just "putting up with each other" and freedom from added work and added duty. St. Peter probably does also.

I'm here, and reading all the posts. You are all saying provactaive things that I think long and hard on, but I don't feel that I can add anything to the discussion. Except the references about Hands. I Googled Images of Cather, looking for her hands of which were there were few. I was thinking that she might focus on hands because she was so conscious of her own. There seemed nothing about her hands to comment on. Someone likened the Professor's ennui to the "It That All There Is" syndrome and I must agree with this. Godfrey has realized his life's ambition and received ample reward and recognition for his efforts. Where does he go now? He and Lillian have grown apart. His daughters have taken their own life's paths and he is asked merely to help pick a fur. The younger generation seems not inclined to be reproducing itself. Just more and more of the same. Perhaps for Cather, too?

Here is one of the sample Hemingway sentences again. This time I have marked in color two of the aspects of his prose style that make it distinctive. Prepositional phrases are in red. I have put the coordinating conjunction and in blue.

(In the late summer)( of that year) we lived(in a house)( in a village) that looked( across the river) and the plain (to the mountains).

There you have two markers of Hemingway’s style:

1. The use of many prepositional phrases 2. A good deal of coordination with “and”

Two more characteristics of his style:

3. A good deal of dialogue, sometimes going on for more than a page with no narrative bits to connect it. The dialogue sounds the way people talk. Hemingway frequently omits tag lines (John said, Mary answered, John remarked, Mary asked and so forth). Because tag lines are often omitted, one has to slow down reading dialogue to make sure you know who the speaker is.

4. The style is what is called minimalist—that is he describes only now and again, uses as few words as possible. Style also described as terse because so much seems to be left out. It is also very clear.

5. And finally, there’s the iceberg theory (which Cather seems to be utilizing in The Professor’s House, by the way). It goes like this. Hemingway believed that in a good story, three-quarters of what the author knew about the characters was omitted. (As three-quarters –or more?—of an iceberg remains underwater. The story is the part of the iceberg that is visible above water.) He insisted that this knowledge was necessary, but if the author wrote well enough, the reader would get the idea even if it was not in the story.

There are some other characteristics, but that’s all the major ones.

~Maryal

Thank you so much Deems - are you saying before Hemingway the use of prepositional phrases was limited - I am trying to put this in context with the Stream of Consciousness writing that always seemed to me to be one long sentence of phrases. I do not have anything in front of me to look at to see the difference - interesting that Hemingway constructed a sentence with many phrases when we do think of his story telling as very lean indeed.

Well I am going to be looking more carefully now at how a writer constructs their sentences - this is fascinating and wonderful of you to share with us...

Would you consider a three or four week class here on Seniornet teaching us some of the differences to look for in a writer's work etc.? Say two lessons a week - I would sign up in a heartbeat...

"Since Rosamond's marriage to Marsellus, both she and her mother had changed bewilderingly in some respects-changed and hardened. But Louie, who had done the damage, had not damaged himself. It was to him that one appealed,...for the bruised feelings of people less fortunate."

Jonathan's statement about my comment made me look it over again. Jonathan, thank you.

I don't believe that Louie is responsible for the hardness in Rosamund and Lillian. I truly believe we can only hold ourselves responsible for the changes in our character. In the end, the choices or decisions are ours in which way we go. Notice in the poem written by Robert Frost about the fork in the road. There is only one person in the poem, the "I". This person will make the choice of where to go or what to do.

two roads diverged in a wood, and I --
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.


Besides, Louie was not "damaged." Louie made the right decisions, knew how and where to steer his mind. Maybe the family could learn lessons from Louie. Is the family having a problem being true to themselves and responsible for what they have or have not been given in life?

"It was to him that one appealed,...for the bruised feelings of people less fortunate." Louie, to me, owns a big heart. I think this is part of what this quote is saying.

I love St. Peter. It is difficult, for me, to see him as flawed. Possibly, his one flaw is that when the cock crowed he chose the wrong path for life. Why? because he was not truthful to himself. In other words, St. Peter betrayed himself. Betraying oneself leads to the damage of other people. People respond to our truth or falseness. Doesn't Shakespeare's quote prove how important it is to own ourselves and never betray our hearts?

"To be or not to be that is the question."

Is Lillian hardened? In what way? I don't see it. I haven't really focused on her.

I can hardly wait for "Poe's Shadow." Cather talks about "The Pit and The Pendulum." The words come from St. Peter's mouth.

"Im afraid it means poor Crane is coming up for another operation. Or, worse still, that the surgeons tell her another would be useless. It's like "The Pit and the Pendulum." I feel as if the poor fellow were strapped down on a revolving disk that comes around under the knife just so often." I think Edgar Allan Poe wrote "TPATP." I just don't know how the story connects to what St. Peter is saying about Crane. In other words, Crane is being tortured over and over again, I guess. By who or what is Crane being tortured? This seems like St. Peter is talking about more than just Tom's money. Is St. Peter saying Crane is one of those fellows who always ends up a loser?

I didn't realize time is almost up for this discussion. I am behind on the posts. Some I have read more than once. Some I have lost and can't find again. Some are new posts. I think all of these posts are treasures(I am not such a toad as to call my posts a treasure. Just making sure you know I am talking about other posts excluding my posts). Now I am going to catch up.

When I look closely at the Collier's magazine. I see a man with a questioning eye and an unhappy face. He seems separated from all the people around him. He is not influencing the other people because he is totally distant from the other people. I see a look of wishing he could have been in another place.

Thanks to everyone for these fascinating posts and the intensity some bring to the discussion. I'm a bit like Mrs Sherlock in that I feel I can't add much to the discussion. My big problem is that I'm mostly too busy early in the week and by the time Friday comes and I have a spare hour or two to catch up the posts it seems to me that I wouldn't be contributing much that is new.

For me, Godfrey is at some kind of emotional and intellectual crossroads and unsure of the way forward now that his major work is finished and his feeling for Lillian has undergone change. He's aimless and has no real goal in sight which in itself depresses him especially in conjunction with the move to the new house away from his familiar surroundings. He needs a jolt to get him going again. I do agree with an early post which suggests that Godfrey is a latent homosexual. It seems to be suggested especially by his opinion being sought on the purchase of furs and the way his sensual feeling for the texture and colour of Rosamund's moleskin fur.

I wonder what sort of a mother Lillian really is. I mean how could she go away for the summerleaving young Kathleen to recover from whooping cough as best she could.

I dislike Louie intensely. He is an opportunist and very agreeable while everything is going his way - he has got Rosamund and the money - how would he act if he didn't?

Outland is still something of a mystery. I can't fully accept that he was able to spend so much time alone with the two girls. He was 20 or thereabouts and the girls were still young children. What 20 year old wants to hang out with kids? The Prof evidently saw it as a means of rounding out Outland's experience. But why did Lillian allow it.

Did Kathleen and Outland have some kind of romantic affair before he became engaged to Rosamund (his virtual wife). Scott remarks that he was the only one Kathleen had told about it (about what?) - and Kath responds by saying she knew that Scott was the real one. Sorry not to quote text but what is that all about. And was the 'fugitive' thought that St Peter had as he watches Kathleen leave the attic something to do with a suspected possible relationship between Scott and Kath which he (Godfrey) has not known of or guessed at before?

Hope I can look in again earlier in the coming week. and Deems thanks for the comments on Hemingway's writing - enlightening for me - look forward to hearing more along the same lines if it is at all possible.

Your quote "I think all of these posts are treasures(I am not such a toad as to call my posts a treasure. Just making sure you know I am talking about other posts excluding my posts). " You cannot eliminate your posts they too are a treasure and I know everyone would agree.

I have finished the chapters Ginny assigned for this week and have to confess it was HARD to stop..I will wait to make my comments until Ginny posts her new questions. One thing I can say Cather has at last reached a point where I think she has written a STORY. She has made reading all of the twaddle worthwhile ...and reminded me I need to write the history of my life for my family.

In 1952 my husband was assigned to Luke AFB near Phoenix. We had lived in Texas for little over a year while he underwent training to become a pilot and moved from Hondo to San Angelo to Waco as he progressed In Waco he survived a plane crash when on a buddy flight the plane went down and plowed a 75 yard path and the young man in the front was decapitated by barbed wire fencing The only part of the plane that was intact was the back seat where my husband sat. Except for a small gash on his forehead and bruises where the shoulder straps held him he walked away from that crash. When we left there we drove back to Philly to visit his family and then to St Louis to visit mine and across country to Phoenix Tom's story reminded me of that trip where everything that could go wrong did ..tornadic weather across Oklahoma and after we arrived in Arizona found out Waco had been hit by a tornado It was a town with many large mansions built by people who believed that Indians had settled Waco because it was the only place safe in a tornado No tornado would ever hit Waco. So much for Indian legends. Then on the two lane highway through New Mexico which I had been under the impression was flat The mountains were so steep our year old daughter had a nosebleed Through the White Sands of Almogordo we drove through the worst sandstorm in 50 years the sun was shining above and lit that sand so it was like driving through a cloud ..the road was narrowed by sand heaped on the road and we had bought a window air conditioner for the car which helped some to keep the sand out but not much ..We were the only car for miles .and had a flat tire out on that desert .. Arizona was red desert and Phoenix was a small jewel We left Luke in 53 and headed back across country to PA where our now two year old and I waited for transportation to Europe to join my husband and sailed on the USS America for Bremerhaven in time to join him by Christmas and that was the beginning of more I share this because Tom's story reminded me how one thing in life leads to another and I am now anxious to see how this story ends. And how much is crammed into our lives ..Ginny I wait your questions...anna

deems- thanks for taking time to clue me in on Hemingway. When I look at that description, I can't help but say "Um, isn't that exactly how Cather writes? the minimalist thing? the iceberg thing?" I think she hasn't gotten her due. Then again, I'm certainly not an unbiased critic of Cather. And if you do ever decide to do that 3-4 week thingy, sigmn me up, and I want a seat in the front

Barbara- you didn't say- should I email you this paper NOW?

jonathan- interesting about the unfinished bio on Cather- there certainly is no shortage of bios on her to read though

ginny As Antony's truest friend, he magnifies the tragic hero through his affection.

I do think the Professor is a "tragic hero". Or perhaps Tom is the tragic hero, magnified by the Professor's affection. That makes more sense to me, actually.

marni- thanks for the links on mesa verde. This book is about to change next week, as we switch our focus to Tom's story. I, for one, will be glad to look at the new story which we've all been waiting to hear

anna- years ago we gave my m-i-l one of those memory books that you fill in the blanks, etc and add pictures. I don't think she's ever worked on it. But I think that that sort of thing, to leave to one's children would have such lasting value. I say-go for it! I vist=ited my folks last fall- they are both 87 this year. I happened to ask them about how they had met (I knew some of it, not all) and they went off on an hour long talk about their past. I saw them connect on a way I seldom do and it was a very touching thing.

I like Lillian and think she is much put upon. A man who spends Christmas all by himself. How unfair is that to his family. I would find it very difficult to be married to that selfish a person. Reading next weeks portion of the novel has been disappointing..No more until Monday

I need to start reading next week's assignment. I am really anxious to read it.

Ginny,

I love Barbara's idea about learning the styles of literary writing. I hope we can do it.

I'd also love a mini- course on the different stages of American literature-or perhaps this is what you mean, too, Barb? I don't know a modernist from a realist. (though I admit I did just get a copy of THE COMPLETE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO AMERICAN LITERATURE, but haven't explored it yet.) I'd love to be able to fix all these authors in some sort of order or other.

So much to learn, so little time. <sigh>

Barbara, I'm in.

Scootz,

Thank you for the title. I wish all could have a copy of Barbara's symbol book.

Ginny, you wrote, "My quibble with that one is that these don't particularly seem to ME to be real people, do they to you all?"

The professor is real enough and he's the only one we know much about. The others are, what did annafair say, "twaddle"? I think of the others as window-dressing, setting, companions to the professor. But the story is about him.

Barbara--No, stream of consciousness is completely different. It has to do with content and not style. Hemingway uses more prepositional phrases than you will find in most straightforward sentences.

Stream of consciousness has to do with the way a story is told. It is through the point of view of one character and is often disorganized and sometimes difficult to follow because it attempts to imitate the way thoughts go through one mind, jumping from tangent to tangent often.

Hemingway doesn't do stream of consciousness. Faulkner (his contemporary) does.

What we ought to do is read a Hemingway novel--Farewell to Arms would be a possibility--or better still, a collection of his short stories, the Nick Adams stories, where I think he is at his best.

Not the bullfights, Ginny.

~Maryal

What we ought to do is read a Hemingway novel

That's something else again. Not sure if I'd be interested or not, but that's ok...if you all want to do that, it's fine by me as well.

So many great posts to read.

I think it was Scootz who first mentioned Peggy Lee and "Is this all there is?" and Mrs. Sherlock is agreeing and I am too.

I see a number of people who've been consumed by their passion ...in the Prof's case his multi-volume work on Spanish Adventurers...and when it ends (or they retire from a job where they've been a workaholic), they're lost. They have no other "passions" to pursue, and often remind me of small children who are "bored" and need someone else to suggest interests/things to do to them. It seems as if the Prof is at that point. As I mentioned before, I see it in some people who've retired...and in those who ask me, "What do you do with your time, now that you're retired?" That always takes me back. While I worked very hard at what I did for my working years, it wasn't my whole life. For some, however, it seems to be and when that phase is over, it is "IS this all there is?"

I also agree 100% with Hats: We're the ones responsible for the changes in us. It's so much easier to blame someone else...like Louie in PH, but you're right, I think. It's only the individual who is responsible for his own happiness and his own behavior.

I don't find it unusual for married people to have their separate interests/do some things apart from the other. Not all couples are "joined at the hip" for every activity.

I think that may be true for Lillian and Godfrey. There's obviously something else that has caused a chasm in their marriage as well. That's still to be learned, I think.

jane

Hats your post was grand but I need clarification - would you - please - You said,". Possibly, his one flaw is that when the cock crowed he chose the wrong path for life. Why? because he was not truthful to himself. In other words, St. Peter betrayed himself."

Now this to be is just brilliant in its shiny truism, "Betraying oneself leads to the damage of other people. People respond to our truth or falseness. Doesn't Shakespeare's quote prove how important it is to own ourselves and never betray our hearts?"

My question though - I am not clear as to how St. Peter betrayed himself. -- I see how, because we each have different values we all see his choices being different than the choices many of us would make or admire in another but, I do not see how he he was not truthful with himself... Please explain - I am really curious because I am not seeing it and you are - enlighten - please...

Scootz I have emailed you...

Deems I think where reading Hemmingway could be a hoot it is not so much understanding how Hemmingway wrote as much as having a clue as to what to look for while reading many writers - Their construction of sentences and other important clues in their writing styles is what has me panting at the bit. Is this something you are comfortable with if not as a long class type discussion but maybe enough excerpts of novels that we could learn that way -

I understand short stories however, I wonder if all of the important writers who have influenced are short story writers... you would know and all we can do is look to you to share your expertise and knowledge.

However, it would be a great summer project for us to pull apart the sentence structure of a few authors and have other aspects of their writing styles thrown in...

Well holy smokes, I have just finished reading all of your posts. I don’t quite know where to start as I think like Hemingway writes. “A good deal of dialogue (as Maryal explains, sometimes going on for more than a page with no narrative bits to connect it. Yep, that describes me. I tend to type as I think. This many times results in a jumbled mess when you read it so I will attempt to have cohesive thoughts.

Lillian gets on my last nerve! I can visualize her sitting there all restrained with her tight-lipped scowl. I think that this story has opened up a few doors that I have tried to slam shut over the years. Frankly, I’m not having much luck liking anybody but the professor as he blunders on through this stage of his life in search of something meaningful. Aren’t we all? I sure am. Like Gumtree I agree that at this pint he is aimless.

Sierrarose- you ask- “Is anybody at all innocent of doing damage to others within a family? Is such a family even possible? Or do we do damage and ask for forgiveness because that's part of the human condition? “

Boy that is a whopper of a question for me. My daughter has been undergoing analysis now for about a year and apparently all of her misery can be attributed to one factor- ME! It seems quite obvious that all of her dispiriting, distressing and daunting situations she faces right now in her life are a result of her childhood. Oh please! She has caused an inordinate and disproportional amount of misery in this family, since Christmas. Noone saw it coming and she is not innocent with the damage she has created. Anytime there is a rupture in the family unit, everyone feels it. As to your last question, she asks not for forgiveness she demands validation. She becomes highly indignant with her siblings when they laugh at her and tell her it was her choices that screwed up her life, not her family.

Gumtree Don’t you think that Tom was pleased to spend so much time alone with the young girls due to the fact that he was an orphan boy, picked up and adopted into a strange family. You ask, “What 20 year old wants to hang out with kids?” He probably thought that he’d died and gone to heaven.
I quote: “He couldn't have wished for a better companion for his daughters, and they were teaching Tom things that he needed more than mathematics.” and
“There was evidently something enchanting about the atmosphere of the house to a boy who had always lived a rough life. He enjoyed the prettiness and freshness and gaiety of the little girls as if they were flowers. Probably, too, he liked being so attractive to them.”

I promise to behave this week and finish my assignments without lagging far behind. You all are wonderful and I have missed being here.

"If you take a page of Hemingway dialogue and read it aloud, you'll find that it's flat and doesn't play well. It has a tension that needs to bounce off the reader internally for its full effect. It says more inside the context of the story than it can ever say outside it. It's highly stylized, played close to the chest like a top poker hand." ~ Sensing Extra Perceptions - Paul Darcy Boles

"Many writers have had their say on style, and most of these statements have some value. There is a truism that the best style is the least noticeable, "the manner of which least stands in the way of the matter presented." No one denies the strong influence that Hemingway's simple, direct style has had on American writers living today." ~ Style: The Manner of Telling. Hallie and Whit Burnett

"The London Times once stated that Hemingway's style succeeded because of his artful way of using American vernacular, which they believed most characteristic of our [American] writing." ~ Craft and Technique. Hallie and Whit Burnett

In other words Hemingway wrote in short declarative sentences, but you had to look between the lines to see the real meaning of what he was talking about.

Now compare the above to Willa Cather:

"In Willa Cather's A Lady Lost there's no word [was written] that could offend a Puritan. But there is one of the most effectively done scenes of adultery in literature, which tells us forever that Marian Forrester is an intensely desirable woman in the physical sense, as well as helping us to sympathize with her and dislike her despoilers. As in all writing - the act of love becomes dispassionate and cold. But if it's expressed in an electric touch, shared laughter, the impress of a head on pillow, it turns into story magic." ~ Craft and Technique

"Eudora Welty wrote of Willa Cather that the uniqueness of her style resulted from her skill in not giving us "the landscape but her vision of it; we are looking at a work of art." It is the angle of that vision which distinguishes one writer's style from another's, that angle which is the writer's exclusive property..." ~ Craft and Technique.

As we have seen with the Professor's House, Cather tends to write in a more flowery style than Hemingway and gives her "vision" rather than what is reality.

Now compare that to Hemingway; his "scenes show strong elements of visual composition." In other words reality.

Barbara,

St. Peter is not truthful to himself because he did not choose, I think, what he really wanted to do with his life. I do not see St. Peter as a father and/or husband. I see him as a man loving to travel, to study other cultures and people. St. Peter, I believe, sees himself in Tom. Tom clearly states what he loves in life. No one is going to hinder him, no one is going to make him accept a role because society says "if you are to be accepted by society, you must do this and this." St. Peter loves the freedom of choice he sees in Tom. Now the time, for St. Peter, is past to take that freedom. The cock crowed. St. Peter denied himself. He chose what the majority choose in society, the wide and broad path, marriage, a career in one place and children.

St. Peter reminds me of the guy in "The Razor's Edge" by Somerset Maugham. He chose the narrow path that few choose. Because of the bravery to choose and to answer the question "To be or not to be" with truthfulness, he experienced a sense of joy in life. People called him lazy, etc. He continued on with his plan for life. Ginny asked about purpose. Perhaps, St. Peter missed his true purpose in life.The painting of the man's face on the Collier's magazine is one of unhappiness and one of no resistance. Oh, he is lacklustre. Maybe St. Peter is the dull part of the silver.

Anyway, this is why Augusta makes St. Peter feel comfortable. With her, he does not need to play a role. With Augusta, St. Peter disrobes from his pretense and becomes real or authentic. In other words, all his flaws are bare and go unnoticed. The Christ still accepted St. Peter after his denial. So, I see Augusta as St. Peter's Christ figure. In her sight, he is forgiven for denying himself and betraying himself. She continues to love him. The old room is St. Peter's cross where he dies and comes to life again. All because of the unconditional love of Augusta.

Barbara, I write better at night. I have the thoughts. Sometimes I can't get out my words. I tried.

Barb- I had already emailed you a note earlier today, plus the link to the paper. Did you get it?

The question is do we step by the beat of the drummer or do we dare to step out of step?

When we are not truthful to ourselves, we damage others by making those people unhappy. Unhappiness does not allow us the strength or energy to thrive. So, by not choosing what we really want, not choosing the path we like best, we hurt ourselves and we harm others because they become fixated on our trauma.

Ahn DRAY ah is also a popular pronunciation of that lovely name.

Aha - thanks Hats - now I see what you are saying - and yes, the dilemma we face in life isn't it - I think though that St. Peter was already married when the bug hit - but then in the 1920s I wonder if he had many choices open to him - maybe that is the theme on this - what happens to a man and his family because he tried to satisfy probably his family, for sure society and maybe his own impulse as a younger man - after all the glory of home and marriage was supposed to be the cats meow and it is only in recent years we hear of so many putting off marriage, if choosing marriage and family at all.

Career first and then marriage I do not think was a concept even when I was a child. Hmmm maybe that is what Cather is bringing to the reader's attention. That would certainly legitimize her own life but then would it - she had her companions although she could not legally marry. Hmmm lots to think about here.

Thank you so much Hats for clarifying - great point Hats and great insight.

Thanks Scootz - received the email - terrific site -

Andrea I think it is always 'all' mom's fault until they are 40 or have teens of their own - we even see it in literature...

What a huge amount to read here!

Hats, you wrote: I don't believe that Louie is responsible for the hardness in Rosamund and Lillian. ... [we] can hold ourselves responsible for the changes in our character. ...the choices or decisions are ours ...
Well said! Especially with respect to Lillian, who ought to be a mother-figure to Louis, and not play around, flirting with him. Do you know any mothers-in-laws who flirt with their SILs? I don't.

Could it be true, however, that Rosamund did change when she married Louis?
Was she less preoccupied with clothes when she was a young friend of Tom's, and later when she planned to marry him? Do we know, yet, about that earlier period of Rosamund's life?

Maryal ~ Thanks for the commentary on Hemingway and Iceberg theory. I always wondered what Hemingway's style was about ... used to love him... but do not these days.
But the Iceberg analysis is quite interesting. Have you then implied that Cather's characters are like that?
Are we seeing just a tiny bit of Rosamund's character?
I cannot figure out what's underlies the materialism of Rosamund.

Ginny ~ on this same subject, you said: we really don't ... know a lot about Rosamond, do we?
Could it be because she is a character whom Cather intended to exemplify all the characteristics of typical woman who she (Cather) did not admire? Rosamond never seems to read a book, help a friend, give to the needy, etc. She just buys clothes and furniture. Is there more to her than meets the eye?
Hope so ... since some of our group seem to like her.

Ginny ~ on another matter: Please, could you post some bits of the fascinating article about Cicero's grammatical structure over to the Latin section, if it's too detailed to put up in Professor's House? We do love having you drop in to the summer classroom!

Hasn't it been said that one can't forgive others until one forgives oneself. Andrea, you daughter is getting in touch with her pain. She is working towards the realization that she has indeed made these choices. In the meantime she is consumed by her pain. It is a long, lonely path to acceptance of one's self, warts and all. Love will get you through it. It is worth waiting for.

Yes, you too can own a copy - it is still available An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C.Cooper

I, for one, would be interested to hear a man's point of view on all this crisis with the Professor. Is it a typical thing for men to go through? Do you feel that Cather, a woman, got it right- or no?

I really am intersted in the male viewpoint here.

Was it in this group that we had a fellow pop in from Oregon? Did we lose him?

Good to see you. Don't worry about the daughter. My sister went into therapy many years ago (for only a year or a little more). Anyway, when she was in the midst of it, she told me that she had "always hated" me.

Fortunately I knew something about therapy at the time and explained to my husband that this was what was then known as the "pendulum effect" which is produced when someone who has always been one way temporarily swings to the opposite extreme while sorting things out.

Ignore her as much as you can and let her find her own way. I hope this isn't the daughter with all those little grandgirls? It will all be OK, I promise.

Mippy--No I wasn't thinking about any character at all when I mentioned the "iceburg theory" and Cather's use of it. What I could have said more clearly is that I think Cather is leaving out a good deal of the story--there will be questions we have to which no answers are given.

Also the professor is in the present and the action of the whole story is only about a year (Tom Outland story--an exception). Whoever said that what he is going through is a midlife crisis of some sort--this was way back in the beginning--was stating the problem in today's language.

Scrawler--All those excerpts of style for Hemingway and Cather were interesting to me. Cather's style is certainly less plain and there are many more adjectives and adverbs. Hemingway moved language away from so many adjectives and adverbs. The style that was popular when he began writing was very decorated, coming down as it did from Henry (I-can't-say-it-directly-so-I'll-take-forever- to-get-you-somewhere-close-to-what-I-mean) James.

Maryal

Ginny, perhaps I should have added 'fortunes' as in Mark Antony's complaint. But, like you, I can't understand St. Peter's use of this particular literary allusion. How does Tom's 'fortune' bear any resemblance to Antony's? What Antony meant was something like fate, wasn't it. Perhaps he meant misfortune. When it took a bad turn, his friend, Enobarbus, went over to the other side. How could this find a parallel in the fortune that Tom left behind. The problem with the use of all kinds of allusions is the suspicion that the author is calling on too much outside help.

On the other hand, simply on the basis of all the enthusiastic posting to this discussion, with all the diverse opinions, the theorizing, the endless questioning, surely Cather would win the 'iceberg' comparison hands down. Thanks, Deems. Isn't that a great critical tool: the iceberg theory. Which author's writing suggests more beneath the surface. We're rapidly finding more and more hinted at by Cather.

As for St. Peter's family seeming like twaddle. If that's the case, it's because St. Peter wishes us to see them that way. Or the author does. In any case there seems to be considerable collusion between the author and St. Peter. The others all seem quite normal. It's St. Peter that has the problem. But I don't see him betraying himself. Perhaps he has reached the fork in the road. His way seems to be taking him away from his family. At fifty, a feeling of wanting to be alone isn't unnatural.

Yes, please, Deems. Give us a course in recognizing an iceberg...

Jonathan- Is it my breath?

What was it Deems & Jonathan- just 3/4 of oneself?
That leaves one hell of a big chunk that is buried or inpercievable, doesn't it? Are we all like that do you think? Is there that major portion (perhaps that which we wish to put "way under") that remains enshrouded in mystery?
As far as my daughter, I have long believed that when someone begins to "do" drugs, that is where they remain for a long time.
She is now somewhere along the 15 yr. old mark. I've said it time and time again (not to her) but it still startled me when she (at 39) erupted into a temper tantrum and spat all of this evil out. Barb she DOES have teens and had no problem spitting it out in front of them. I guess it was one of those things that I had hoped she had conquered. Oh well, I've backed off now for months and the only thing that aggravates me is she doesn't see why all should not be "nice-nice" when I return to NY to spend a few weeks with the grand kids and her sister. She thinks it's like PMS. "Oh sorry, I was in a bad mood" does NOT make it anymore.

It IS An dre ah, Miss Ginny. The nuns used to summon me with AN dre AH and I knew I was in deep caccaa. Or is it Cochaa?

You name it, I'll do it.

I'm already finished so I can go either way.

Although, I must say I need to reread and I think the last section , I think it's called "the Professor" is the hardest. I need at least one reread there to get my head around it. At least one, yeah...at least....

Me too, either way you want.

I'll go along, too.

Get 'er done, Scooter!

Oh my word - we were supposed to read to chapter 13??? Well I stopped at chapter 9 and so here I am catching up with what everyone else has finished - given that error in reading instructions closely it is fine with me to go to the end...

Since we have not started the new let me share that in chapter 10 I see some foreshadowing to the differences between the sisters -

"That wasn't the only reason," Rosamond added dreamily. "Roddy was proud. He didn't like taking orders and living on pay cheques. He liked to be free, and to sit in his saddle all day and use it for a pillow at night. You know Tom said that, Kitty."

"Anyhow, he was noble. He was always noble, noble Roddy!" Kathleen finished it off."

Rosamond already the practical one with money being the raison d'état for life's choices and for Kathleen it is about the value of being noble, a good friend, things of the heart.

And if St. Peter made a wrong choice in life it would have been a life without charm when he reflects on moments that touched his heart like: "When a man had lovely children in his house, fragrant and happy, full of pretty fancies and generous impulses, why couldn't he keep them?

Wow and now we have the grown Rosamund who has turned from her heart - again, I do not see this as being because of the choice in life St. Peter made - seems to me that Rosamund's character was set in childhood to think of how money would or not make someone act, support, be comfortable over the urge to support in friendship if it even meant self-denial.

"Five hundred dollars," murmured St. Peter. "Let me see, at three dollars a day that means one hundred and sixty-six days. Now what can we do about it?"

"Of course we must do something. I knew you'd feel that way, Father."

"Certainly. Among us, we must cover it. I'll speak to Rosamond to-night."

"You needn't, dear." Kathleen tossed her head. "I have been to her. She refuses.

"Refuses? She can't refuse, my dear. I'll have a word to say." The firmness of his tone, and the quick rush of claret colour under his skin, were a gratification to his daughter."

Without continuing the quote just this bit alone to me shows the character of these three.

Better post this - I am reading up a storm here to catch up....

I had to slap my hand and bite my fingers NOT to read further than Chapter 5 in Book II now I am off to finish this book and see how it ends..later all .anna

I'm confused. What is it we're voting on? Something about finishing the last 40 pages? Are we changing the reading schedule? Are we supposed to have finished the book? What? What?

Ginny I thought I had understood - are you saying there is nothing to discuss in the next chapters until we get to the last 40 pages and so why not read and skip to those last 40 and eliminate any discussion of the pages that precede until we get to the last 40 pages???

OOKKK I think I got it...

I vote to finish the book, then. I'm up to date, so I'm able to do it.

HEY! My picture is in the heading! That's neat! Do you know, Bob and I had to climb a REALLY steep long path with our park ranger-guided tour to get up there to where I could take that photo? It was scary! Then we walked a path to the cliff village and got to go through it.

There was another way to get up there - climbing up ladders on the cliff walls. I wanted to do it, but my chicken...er...husband didn't. Then suddenly it started to rain and lightning. I changed my mind and we went on the easier (pant pant) path.

It was quite an amazing experience to get up there and then to see the dwellings. Unbelievable experience.

Marni,

That photograph is beautiful! Oh, I glory your spunk. I could have never walked up there. They would have to fly me over. I bet that is some sight to see. Just fantastic.

Ginny,

I stopped at chapter 13. That's all I know.

Mippy,

I also feel Rosamunde changed after marriage. I said that a long way back. I do not feel Louie should take the blame for her choices. Life would need a major makeover if we could heap our wrong choices on one person's head. Rosamunde chose her own path and how to act on that path, as far as I am concerned.

It's my fault for not focusing on Lillian. She never came completely clear for me. I didn't see her as flirting with the son-in-laws. I see her as needing attention, needing someone to talk to, not knowing where to go when her mind is troubled and needs relief. In the book, Lillian does not have an Augusta. Who does Lillian have? I just see her as a confidante to her son-in-laws, nothing intimate, I don't think.

Once I got to Tom's story , chapter five, it was difficult not to go ahead and finish his stry and then see how it all winds up- so I did!

Ther's puh-lenty to discuss, whichever we go.

I just started Tom's story. I want to see what's going to happen. Curiosity killed the cat. Oh well, I am dead.

I am leaving tomorrow for ten days, so I have finished the book. I must confess that I did not like Toms story at all. It was like two separate books thus far.. I realize that I liked several of Cathers books a good deal more than I do this one.

Stephanie- I agree with you. Tom's story is exactly like a mini-book placed into the story of the Professor. But there is great meaning to it for the Professor's story as well. I also agree that I liked that other Cather I read better. Don't get me wrong- I've enjoyed this book, and I love her but I think I'm going to like her prairie and New Mexico stories better.

Did you read DEATH COMES FOR THE ARCHBISHOP? If so, how did you like that one?

I think my next Cather will be My ANTONIA.

finished the book and being very introspective ever since - Yes, Tom's story with another version of St. Peter's story - interesting how you can take the same issues and create two different stories - Principles versus Love is what I am wrestling with.

Tom in his tower within his ancient city and Godfrey in his tower in the house of his marriage.

I see the idea of determining value by money as simply a way to quantify - like science - organized with the ability to measure variables where as art, like the ancient pots has value beyond specifics and these values are limited when man tries to specify measured value to them.

Certainly we are seeing the death of something for both men - the love they had for another -

Because Godfrey is saved from death I am not sure that I see a resurrection - but another read is in order.

Godfrey comparing his life before and after he fell in love is another interesting aspect - is love finite based on certain circumstances or are our principles of such value we shut off love in order to protect them - that for me is the larger struggle - yes, an aspect of forgiveness but sorting out - I am caught - unconditional love - does that mean your principles are in second place - but then what principles are we talking about - hmmm lots to ponder -

Cather opened a can of worms for me...

1. What does the inclusion of Tom Outland's book do to the plot as a whole?

It shifts the focus onto Tom. It forces us to contemplate what effect Tom's appearance had on the Professor's life. It makes us compare Tom and the Professor.

(Do you notice the shift in style and tone? Do you notice for a change we have a character not referred to in the Third Person ("The Professor…") but in the First Person speaking directly to….whom? A journal? We the readers? ("I…")



Yes, not only is the style different, but also we have a first person narrative as opposed to a third person narrative. First person always brings one closer to the person, affords us a much more personal and close association with our speaker. Third person holds us at arm's length, makes us have to speculate about the person being discussed.

What do you make of this book within a book? Why is it there?

It's the turquoise set in tarnished silver- the new versus the old. It's Tom v the Professor.

Does it add or detract or distract or what, in your opinion?

I have known it was coming all along, so it certainly didn't distract me. I was expecting and also looking forward to it. There was some suspense for me about Tom- what did he do? why does the Professor hold him in such high esteem? What's his story after all?

What do you make of Tom Outland here, his character or what is this supposed to show us about him?

He's definitely an independent sort. A man of principles, for sure. A lover of art. He eschews material values. He's an idealistic young man. He and the Professor have a lot in common, though not that last thing..

One last word about Hemingway. "In Hemingway's "Soldier's Home," Krebs, having just returned from the bloody World War I battlefields of Europe, endures his mother's pious lecturing":

"I've worried about you so much, Harold," his mother went on. "I know the temptations you must have been exposed to. I know how weak men are. I know what your own dear grandfather, my own father, told us about the Civil War and I have prayed for you. I pray for you all day long, Harold."

Krebs looked at the bacon fat hardening on his plate.

Silence. Compare Krebs silence with that of St. Peter's.

Chapter 15: St. Peter alienates himself, staying at home to work while the family vacations in France.

"Since Rosamond's marriage to Marsellus, both she and her mother had changed bewilderingly in some respects -- changed and hardened. But Louie, who had done the damage, had not changed himself. It was to him that one appealed, -- for Augusta, for Professor Crane, for the bruised feelings of people less fortuante. It was less because of Louie than for any other reason that he would refuse this princely invitation."

Lillian and daughters had changed and hardened. This is what drove St. Peter to his attic more than anything else. I think also that he believed that Louie was replacing him in the eyes of the women and that he was not needed any more. It is very difficult to know that one is not needed. And finally Louie could be counted on. It was him now that one appealed to for help for Augusta and Professor Crane. I for one like Louie even more now than I did before.

"He could get out of it without hurting anybody -- though he knew Louie would be sorry. He would simply insist that he must work, and that he couldn't work away from his old study. There were some advantages about being a writer of histories. The desk was a shelter one could hide behind, it was a hole one could creep into."

Yes, I know so well the desk as a shelter one can hide behind, a hole one can creep into but it is more than that it is a place where one can create.

1. What does the inclusion of Tom Outland's book do to the plot as a whole?

Does it add or detract or distract or what, in your opinion?

The inclusion of Tom Outland's book is the beginning of closure to what is going on in St. Peter's family. After meeting Tom for that short period, I felt a giant part of the puzzle was missing. The story could not end without knowing more about this person.

What do you make of Tom Outland here, his character or what is this supposed to show us about him?

I feel Tom Outland is wiser than his age. To appreciate the pottery and the death of people from long ago and wonder what happened to their society takes a person with an observing heart and mind. Tom is also honest. He could have stolen all of that guy's money. He didn't do it. He walked the guy home and stacked all his money in his grip. I haven't finished the book. I just feel that Tom Outland is not a run of the mill guy. He is different, a rarity.

I've finished the book, so vote yes to going on to the end.
Once I started Tom's story, I could not stop.
We need to understand Tom to understand the Professor,
and reading this book within a book fills in a lot of the gaps, and enriches our experience.

Mippy--That's why I finished the book. Got to Tom's story and had to see what all this had to do with anything.

Of course we can see your breath. And by the looks of it you're seeing many icebergs... Very imaginative answer, Scootz.

And talk about foreshadowing. I can still hear Ginny saying to us in the prediscussion: (Houseboats, post 236): You row, I'll sit up and watch for icebergs.

Yes, I vote for reading to the end, and using a backward look to continue the discussion. Tom's story fits so nicely between parts one and three. Is there any doubt that in Tom and his adventure we see a younger Godfrey St. Peter.

Scrawler quotes St. Peter as saying that Lillian and Rosamond had changed and hardened since R married Louie. That's St. Peter's perception. They haven't changed half as much as he has. Lillian thinks he is posing, but it's far more serious than that. And Lillian is puzzled over that. So is the rest of the family, all trying to distract him. With Chicago. With Paris and France. But he's too tired to go. He says it'll be too much of Louie, whom he genuinely admires. He has admitted it. On the other hand Paris is too beautiful and too full of memories.

But he would rather stay at home and muse, or dream. Wondering about many things. Even about the consequences of 'when husbands cease to be (their wives') lover. And always so tired. At fifty!

Well, right off the rip Mrs. St. Peter tells our protagonist that he cannot refuse to accompany Rosamond to Chicago. Why didn’t MRS. St. Peter go as well? Even Louie (intoxicated with the pleasures of planning) thinks that he can plan a vacation for the St. Peters. Chapter 14: Wow! What a powerful concluding sentence here: "I was thinking," he answered absently, "about Euripides; how, when he was an old man, he went and lived in a cave by the sea, and it was thought queer, at the time. It seems that houses had become insupportable to him. I wonder whether it was because he had observed women so closely all his life."
Encarta says about Euripides-He was capable of bitter, realistic observation of human weaknesses and corruption, and yet just as often his work reflected respect for human heroism, dignity, and more tender sentiments. What is Cather telling us besides the fact that he has obviously seen enough of the women in his household? Does he see their weaknesses? Or—is he a part of their weakness?

I haven't been able to see self-betrayal as an element in St. Peter's frame of mind, in the first part of the book; but now that I've read through to the end - of course - the professor does ruminate on the bleak prospect that he hasn't been true to himself. Left to himself, with his family in Europe - Scott and Kathleen are vacationing elsewhere of course - the professor falls into the melancholy mood of one who has steered the wrong course, of one who has let down the small boy he once was.

What a curious regression the professor does in retracing his life, looking for the 'realist' of his several lives (240), with the appalling recognition that,

'...all the years between had been accidental and ordered from the outside. His career, his wife, his family, were not his life at all, but a chain of events which had happened to him. All these things had nothing to do with the person he was in the beginning.' p240

Of course it is Tom Outland's doing, that has brought about this realization for the professor reexamining his life at fifty. And of course I can see why Keat's Ode might have appeal to St. Peter in thinking of his young hero.

Cather does achieve a curious complexity in the character development of her hero. And other literary sources come to mind in trying to understand this strange figure and his 'house'.

He's turning his back on his wife and family, in order to find his true path. Isn't it easy to see Christian of The Pilgrim's Progress in Cather's mind while plotting the professor's course? Bunyan's book was a favorite of hers. As it was for many writers.

Then again, if St. Peter is looking for a new adventure, he might also feel trapped, as Tennyson's hero Ulysses was,

'By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
matched with an aged wife.'

Or consider a usable mood for St. Peter in Wordsworth's sonnet, which begins with the lines

'The world is too much with us, late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers.'

We have only to remind ourselves of how he felt after coming back from that shopping trip to Chicago with Rosamond.

Move over John Bunyan. St. Peter is straight out of Sholom Aleichem when he starts quoting scripture. Where's Augusta?

'He heapeth up riches and cannot tell who shall scatter them.'

Like Aleicham's Tevyeh, the dairyman, St. Peter's use is strangely biassed or incorrect. He seems to have the riches heaped up by Tom, only to be scattered by Louie in the process of turning the St. Peter household upside down. Wasn't it Louie himself who has heaped up the riches? And spending it generously on everybody.

But Tom Outland did heap up something much grander for the professor, when he proved to the professor that America, too, had a history worth exploring and worth some scholarship. Cather surely played a role in raising the historical consciousness of her fellow citizens.

While she seems to have had bitter, gloomy ideas about marriage?

I have to tell you about our car ride up from the canyon to the Mesa Verde National Park Visitor Center. It was all "switch backs." I had never driven on "switch backs" before we took our trip through some of the Southwest. The road goes up (or down) a steep incline up a mountain or mesa - so steep that it curves back and forth, back and forth, so you don't have to drive straight up. They were really scary because one side of the road would always be right next to the edge of the cliff. No walls or fences as barriers. If you steered a bit wrong, you'd go right over the edge and straight down to your death.

I only drove on one switch back. I was too nervous and my husband said I was driving too slowly. When he drove, I thought he was driving too fast! But people would actually pass us. I was a wreck.

Well, we were making our way up a road of switch backs towards Mesa Verde. We pulled into a "vista" spot where a few cars could pull in so people could take pictures. There was another car parked on the road there. Two women were in the car. The female driver asked my husband if he could pull her car into the parking spot. She said she was paralyzed with fear. She couldn't drive another inch up the road.

We suggested her companion drive. Turns out she was from New York City and couldn't drive. We suggested they turn around and go back down. She said they had reservations at the inn at the top. They had called a park ranger on the cell phone. He was coming to get them and drive them up.

No wonder I was frightened. I wasn't the only one!

Some of those roads are nightmares. Driving near the Grand Escalante Staircase in Utah, we drove on a 2-lane stretch of narrow road with no barriers on either side, a couple of feet of grass on either side of the road, and then a 13,000 foot sheer drop on either side. I thought I was going to throw up. Even my husband admitted he was afraid.

But it's worth it!

Question #2-

2. Louie and Rosamond and Lillian off to Europe! What did you think of that offer? Why did the Professor really not go, do you think??

I thought it was typical of Louie- generous almost to a fault. Very nice indeed, he seems to enjoy making others happy, giving ans sharing his wealth.

Why did the Professor really not go, do you think??

He didn't want to. Not to be flip, but I think he's in a major depressive episode. Gallavanting around the continent is not what he feels like doing. I'm surprised that his family isn't more worried about him, really.

Wow! what a description, my stomach is switching back and forth. I could never have made it. Now I really appreciate park rangers.

Alf, I wanted to know some fact or facts about Euripides. I have always heard his name, knew nothing about him.

Hi Scootz.

But first. Ginny--Easy way to understand Hemingway's style--it is chiefly parataxis. He uses few dependent clauses. Tends to stick to coordinating clauses when there is more than one in a sentence. Thus, they are chiefly independent clauses. I mix my language and yours but I think you will follow.

OK, long time ago, Hats asked about Keats' "Ode on a Grecian Urn." It's one of Keats' major odes, perhaps the one most people know something of. Its main point, or one of them, is that pictured on the urn are two lovers and some sort of festival with young men and women in the fields/ woods. Keats meditates on the scene, on the urn itself as as art object, and concludes 1) the young man will always be pursuing and never in possession of the young woman and 2) that beauty is truth and truth beauty.

Here's the end of the poem:

When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say'st,
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know. '


The poem is way more complex than this summary indicates, but I think that the reference to Cather is to that long uninhabited Indian village that Tom comes upon. The town is like the urn.

After much struggle, Tom finally gains a view of the ancient village. Here are the pertinent paragraphs from The Professor's House:

"It was such rough scrambling that I was soon in a warm sweat under my damp clothes. In stopping to take breath, I happened to glance up at the canyon wall. I wish I could tell you what I saw there, just as I saw it, on that first morning, through a veil of lightly falling snow. Far up above me, a thousand feet or so, set in a great cavern in the face of the cliff, I saw a little city of stone, asleep. It was as still as sculpture--and something like that. It all hung together, seemed to have a kind of composition: pale little houses of stone nestling close to one another, perched on top of each other, with flat roofs, narrow windows, straight walls, and in the middle of the group, a round tower.

It was beautifully proportioned, that tower, swelling out to a larger girth a little above the base, then growing slender again. There was something symmetrical and powerful about the swell of the masonry. The tower was the fine thing that held all the jumble of houses together and made them mean something. It was red in colour, even on that grey day. In sunlight it was the colour of winter oak-leaves. A fringe of cedars grew along the edge of the cavern, like a garden. They were the only living things. Such silence and stillness and repose--immortal repose. That village sat looking down into the canyon with the calmness of eternity."

From the opening of Keats' Ode:

THOU still unravish'd bride of quietness,
Thou foster-child of Silence and slow Time,
Sylvan historian, who canst thus express
A flowery tale more sweetly than our rhyme:


In these lines, the poet addresses the urn. It is still (in both senses of the word--enduring and without motion) and an "historian" that perhaps has captured a long vanished scene.

That is what the Indian city does for Tom. It speaks to him of that which has passed. It is itself history captured by him--for the first time. The experience cannot be captured in words, so transcendent is it:

"The falling snow-flakes, sprinkling the piñons, gave it a special kind of solemnity. I can't describe it. It was more like sculpture than anything else. I knew at once that I had come upon the city of some extinct civilization, hidden away in this inaccessible mesa for centuries, preserved in the dry air and almost perpetual sunlight like a fly in amber, guarded by the cliffs and the river and the desert."

The tone here matches the tone of Keats' poem.

~Maryal

I've just begun the Outland section and find Cather's descriptive power and use of language beyond words (so to speak). Will go on to the end now.

Jonathon - I agree with your comment that St Peter may be feeling trapped -I've had those lines of Tennyson echoing somewhere in the back of my mind from early on but your mention of the poem has made me stop to consider it a little more.

Lillian is certainly Godfrey's 'aged wife' but what of her plight with an equally 'aged spouse'? One could possibly take it further by suggesting that just as Telemachus no longer needs his father but is ready to take over his father's past role "he works his work, I mine"- so too, St Peter's daughters are no longer little girls who need their father's admiration for their pretty frocks but instead they are grown women with husbands to drape them in fur (and in Rosamund's case, jewels as well)so that Godfrey no longer has that fatherly role to play.

I've not read to the end as yet so can only hope that Godfrey will soon come to the realisation that "tis not too late to seek a newer world" and move on.

Ginny and Deems : Wow!! Have just seen your posts - somehow I missed them before I posted. I'll have to come back to read them properly.

Loved the cliff city/grecian urn comparison.Every word of Cather's prose is 'loaded'with meaning and expression -in fact, poetic - just as is every word of Keats.

Goodnight!

I agree with Gumtree. How lovely you have put it all together.

Marnie ~ Oh, yes, switchbacks. Been there, done that. Ditto on ....AAAARRRRGGG ...
Ginny ~ Thanks for the material on Cicero's style; I printed it out to study, because at first glance I'm lost in the wilderness. Why do we need taxis?
Maryal ~ you posted material related to taxis about Hemingway, and I remain confused.
Perhaps there was a reason that I took more science than lit. in college... cannot understand why we are looking at arrangement of clauses ... help ...
Good thing there are no grades in this class.

In her last post, Ginny dropped in a question about who is the weakest character?
Scott? What is there to admire about Scott? At least he's nice to his wife, but Cather seems to have created his personality as a contrast to the rest of the characters. What do you think?

I would like to say thank you too.

What does Cather's portrayal of the women in the professor's life say about Cather? I suspect that it is her ambivalence about being female. She has chosen a "road less travelled" for herself. Ordinary women and their lives seem to puzzle her, she doesn't see their satisfaction, only the surface trivialities.

Mippy--The other taxis, the structure that Hemingway doesn't use much, is hypotaxis--just went back and reread Ginny's Latin grammar explanation.

Ginny: I'm still laughing about your description of driving the kids on the switchback road and why the town was a ghost town!

Here are a couple of links to pictures of switchback roads.

1. A switchback road in Moab, Utah:

http://www.met.utah.edu/jimsteen/gwest/picpages/mm0478.html

2. High arial view of the switchback road leading up the mountain to Machu Picchu:

http://depts.washington.edu/alumni/gallery/v/tours/tours24/aap.jpg.html

I've just read up through part of Tom's story, but I thought we had a good picture of Tom's character so far. I see him so far as:

mature beyond his years
respected by peers and superiors
responsible
brave, faces danger head-on
tactful
scrupulously honest
respectful of others, one who sees the good in others
curious, an investigator, seeks answers
kind and caring
extremely intelligent, even brilliant
concerned about conserving our country's heritage
respectful of another culture's ways
eager to learn
independent
open
unsophisticated
giving, sharing
a good friend
fun

I have only seen two characters in the book say anything negative about Tom so far:

Lillian didn't like him - hated his plain manners which were not genteel (like the way he ate his food at the table) - and she was jealous of the relationship between him and her husband.

Crane said Tom was not careful enough in his experimentation of the gas.

I wonder what else I'll find out about him in the remainder of the book!!??

I've been lurking throughout the book and to each of you I am in awe of your vast knowledge, I wonder where I've been for all those years.

Do you think St.Peter is suffering from guilt? His success in his volumes came only after using Tom's writings. His first volumes raising not a stir at all.The money for the professor's house was a result of Tom's work. St.Peter knew the truth but he never acknowledged it whereas Louie gave Tom so much credit for his success that he named his house after him.

Oh, boy. Now I think I missed something. Maybe I haven't read enough yet.

I thought the Prof got his money from his history series about Spanish explorers - a project he was working on before he met Tom. Did Tom have something to do with that? (Don't tell me if it's in the part we don't have to read til tomorrow!!!!)

I know he was to write the introduction to Tom's story - some sort of Autobiography to be published? I'm not sure what was to happen with this work.

Hi ellh...

could you please explain this

The money for the professor's house was a result of Tom's work.

not sure I understand. Thanks.

ellH--Welcome! Good to have you join us.

However, I think the professor's inspration for the last part of his Spanish History is from those summers he spent with Tom out west, not with Tom's writing.

The only writing from Tom that is mentioned is a very brief diary he kept in the Indian city. Somewhere Cather describes it as so sparse that it was as if words cost money.

It's those two summers out west with Tom that make me wonder.

I have a lot of wonderings also about Tom and his buddy, Roddy out west. They were cowboys for a while and then explorers of the cliff city. And then there's their chief cook and bottle washer, Henry, who is completely reliable as long as there's no supply of liquor around.

~Maryal

I think without Tom's entrance into St. Peter's life, the trips to the southwest, the sharing of knowledge learned from Tom's living there, the insight into the territory previously unknown to the professor such as taking a sentence from Garces' diary and marking the exact spot he crossed the river- all added a vitaltiy to the later volumes which would not have been possible without Tom's knowledge. It was the last four volumes that brought him the reward."If the last four volumes of"The Spanish Adventurers" were more simple and inevitable than those that went before, it was largely because of Outland"

Ok ellh, I think I see what you're saying. I agree- that Tom was some sort of muse for the professor. I was unsure about the money coming from Tom's writing.

Not to trivialize the book, but was anyone reminded of Brokeback Mountain? The pages about Roddy and Tom and the herds, etc- it all put me in mind of BM. I wonder if Proulx ever read TPH? She certainly could have gotten an idea from it, no?

Scootz- you are absolutely right, the Professor just did not wish to accompany his family to Europe. He much preferred his own solitude, behind his desk, enjoying the moments of his ruminations and pondering life as he saw it now. I think that he is more drained and weary than he is depressed. These people are so exhausting and burdensome to be around.

While traveling in the '90's in New Mexico, SW Arizonia, Wyoming and Colorodao we were blessed to be able to witness some of these magnificent cave dwellings. It was like reading a whole summer of my life when I finished this story. These dwellings are incomprehensible in their construction, utility and management. When you look up a mountain top and spy long horn sheep standing so majestic against the skylight it drops you to your knees in wonder and awe.
I loved Tom's emotional story and cried when he explained to his friend that the treasures were not to be sold but belonged to all; generations of mankind, Mother Eve (and father Adam.)
Yes, I do believe we have two stories in one here. One St. Peters is a mirror of Tom's. one reflects the other.

I envy those of you who have actually seen these cave dwellings. I can only imagine the majesty of such a thing, really. Small wonder that Tom was overcome by it all, and that the Professor, in turn, was motivated and stimulated by it all.

Lillian and Crane. And in each case the reason is so obvious. Tom has taken Godfrey away from Lillian. And Crane is desperate about staking a claim to a part of the fortune, demeaning Tom, to enhance his own contribution to a money-making discovery.

EllH, you arrived with the most pertinent observation and questions. St. Peter, with a guilt feeling! For not giving Tom his due for the inspiration that made his last four volumes such a success? For allowing the proceeds to be spent on the vanity of a new house?

There are so many good points throughout the posts. Mippy wonders about the weakest character in the book and suggests Scott. He is the frustrated writer isn't he? Is it Cather remembering her own career frustrations? Who is the strongest? Augusta? St. Peter might think so.

But for him it will always be Tom. As Maryal pointed out for us in explaining the Keat's Ode. Tom will forever remain young in the professor's eyes. Will forever chase his dream and contemplate the beautiful.

So, St. Peter owes Tom more than Louie does!

Marni, I must congratulate you on that amazing photo of the cliff dwellings. What a heading we have at the top of this page, bringing Mesa Verde and the book cover together like that. I spent an hour in the library this morning, looking for something on Cather and her work. I was surprised by one title: From Mesa Verde to The Professor's House, by David Harrell, which he acknowledges as built on his PhD dissertation. It would seem that Willa Cather is getting some attention in the world of academe. Is it any wonder? Professors are people too, trying to understand themselves and the world around them. It takes a good novelist to get at the truth.

Why did St.Peter refuse to accompany wife, daughter, and son-in-law to Europe. He tells us. It would be too much of Louie. And he has too many nice memories of Paris, without having them ruined by a lot of shopping. He detests spending money. Or, perhaps, he was just too damned tired.

What a wild ride! Switchback roads and narrow, rock-walled English lanes. I've driven them both. Both traumatic. And one can't even take ones hand off the steering wheel to chew ones nails! I was approaching Yosemite from the west, years ago, driving VERY carefully, with that young guy behind me sitting on his horn. I'm stll going out of my mind about that one.

Re: "I think that he is more drained and weary than he is depressed. These people are so exhausting and burdensome to be around."

The Prof does seem drained and weary. I think he's brought a lot of it on himself, however. He has this thing about ugliness. He hates anything ugly. Well, for heaven's sake. We're all going to have tons of ugliness around us. You have to learn to live with it, or change it, or ignore it. But the Prof is like Mr. Super-Sensitive. He's bothered by such little things - like ugly hands, probably.

WHoooooo HOOoooooo Scootz!!!!

As soon as I began to read about Tom and Robby, I heard the theme music from Brokeback Mountain!

Yep. And I'll bet that Annie Proulx has read at least some Cather. But I sure found myself wondering about those cowboys up in that deserted place with those starry nights and cooking out on the fire.

It's not trivializing the book at all, do you think? To see the parallels. After all Proulx's story and the movie were both excellent work.

In her time, Cather could not have written about sex at all--directly. But I noticed early in the book the passage where Lillian says it was not the girls that drove them apart. And the professor immediately thinks of Tom. Lillian didn't want Tom to come around the house all the time, remember? After he had been making a habit of being there a good deal.

She was jealous. She used to be her husband's bosom buddy, the one he talked to, and when Tom comes, she is replaced.

Yay, Scootz!

~Maryal

I saw Brokeback Mountain a couple of nights ago and was thinking of Tom and Roddy and Tom and the Prof. I asked Bob, who worked as a cowboy in Colorado one summer during college, if he thought there was a lot of that sort of thing among men like cowboys - men who work for so long together without women in desolate or lonely places. I asked if it was like what we hear goes on in prisons with the relationships developing among men who are lonely and needy.

Bob didn't think so.

I haven't gotten to any place where there is the slightest hint of anything like that between Tom and Roddy.

Tom and the Prof - now that's another story, at least on the Prof's part - the way he thinks about Tom and the way his wife is jealous etc. However, that doesn't necessarily indicate they had an intimate relationship of that sort.

Well, I must read on and see what happens.

Thanks, EllH for straightening me out about Tom's influence on the Prof's writing. I don't even remember the Prof being out west. Gad! I can't remember anything from one chapter to the next.

I'm reading Mayflower by Nathaniel Philbrick at the same time I'm reading this book. (Hope I'm not mixing things up.) Each book has something about Indian corn. Tom found some corn in the cliff dwelling square tower that Father Duchene thought was a granary.

According to Philbrick, Indian corn stored by ancient Native Americans in dry places can last for an exceedingly long time. Some corn has been found that is at least 1000 years old.

I love your posts. Your words are making me rethink my thoughts about "The Professor's House. I hope to share more book discussions with you. Ginny is wonderful, isn't she?

I get the feeling that the paragraph quoted below, said by Father Duchene, is kind of a parallel being made between the ancient cliff city and the Professor's house and life. Father Duchene is talking to Tom about why the cliff dwellers may have disappeared - reason still unknown today.

"They were probably wiped out, utterly exterminated, by some roving Indian tribe without culture or domestic virtues, some horde that fell upon them in their summer camp and destroyed them for their hides and clothing and weapons, or from mere love of slaughter. I feel sure that these brutal invaders never even learned of the existence of this mesa, honeycombed with habitations. If they had come here, they would have destroyed. They killed and went their way."

Don't you think this is what the Prof thinks about the people around him - like the people at the college, for instance - even his family. He feels that all around him is ugliness and brutality, lack of interest in culture - like the kids in his class. The one ray of light was Tom. And now there is another boy who has that certain something in the Prof's class.

I don't think St. Peter has changed as much as some of the other characters. They are only intested in money and traveling etc., but St. Peter is having what I would call "writer's block." It happens when you spend months or years on a special project and than when the project is completed there is that empty space in your life. What St. Peter needs to do is do exactly what he told Louie and the others he would do - and that is write! It's not as easy as it sounds however. I tend to count paper clips, straigten closets, make lots of lists, etc before I can start a new project. But once those little grey cells are active again than stay out of my way - I'm going to the attic.

As far as women are concerned and what St. Peter said, I can't help wonder if those are Cather's thoughts. Didn't someone here say that she ended a relationship just before she started this novel? Perhaps her inner feelings were itching to come out.

The Outland story seems contrived here in more of the middle of the book. But the only other way would have been to start when Outland was alive and have flashbacks. Old letters that the characters could read would have done the trick too, but than the present action would have to stop. But Cather sends everybody on vacation and than puts St. Peter musing in the attic with the "idea" that he's going to write about Outland. So we therefore don't really stop the present story - we just slow it down a bit. A little like what St. Peter is doing himself - slowing down - when you slow down in the present - you almost always tend to drift backward to the past.

Maryal,

I'm glad to have that thought validated. Maybe trivialize isn't the right word, maybe "sully" would be a better word. It was hard NOT to think of something going on there if you had recently seen BM.

I have no idea really if there ever was anything between or amongst any of these men. But no, I don't think Lillian is referring to anything sexual. It doesn't have to be a sexual thing for a woman to feel slighted, ignored, left out. My husband can do it to me by looking at his Blackberry too often! LOL Godfrey chose Tom over Lillian those summers- that would be way enough, if it was me, to feel some resentment toward Tom.

I've had to be out of town for medical reasons. Just catching up on all your posts. Thanks much for all of you adding to what I'm able to get from the book.

What a great photo of the Mesa Verde Cave Dwellings. I was able to see some ancient cave ruins during a rafting trip down the Colorado many years ago. Truly "there is something stirring about finding evidences of human labor and care in the soil of empty country." Also lots of examples there of caverns formed by softer rock being eroded from beneath rock that is harder.

"In the spring, just a year after I quarreled with Roddy, I landed here and walked into your garden, and the rest you know," [last lines of Tom Outland's Story] indicates that this is a narrative given by Tom to the Professor, and so to us.

Tom is of the "out" land, outside the kind of life that places value on money and power as priority. Roddy doesn't get this. Tom is interested in what goes into a people being more than what gives them a survival advantage: he protects Blake and his money; his interest in the Cliff City is obviously about their civilization, their care in living,--". . .they arose gradually from the condition of savagery."

Scootz- I envy those of you who have actually seen these cave dwellings. I can only imagine the majesty of such a thing, really. Small wonder that Tom was overcome by it all, and that the Professor, in turn, was motivated and stimulated by it all.

Tom was overcome, wasn't he? when I saw those long horn sheep I just wanted to sit in the middle of the desert and watch thm, high upon the cliffs avove us. Bill wanted to hike up there. (I guess that he would be the motivated one.)

I've not seen Brokeback Mt. yet but did not feel anything other than admiration and friendship between Tom and Roddy.

Brokeback Mtn and Tom and Robby, Annie Proulx was not afraid to write about sex and desire . Cather was cobbled by her times and her sexual orientation. She does not approach a young mans need for sexual release or a womans for that matter. In 30 pages Proulx gives a short story that deals im depth with cowboys and their inner lives. Reading the story is even more searing than seeing the movie, if that is posible. Just as Cather hid her true self from her public so she hides much of what the young men felt from us.

Tom is too perfect to be even remotely real. He overcomes a truly difficult childhood to become a successful amateur Archeoligist while learning foreign languages. He charms all that meet him and in a few months picks up years of Mathematics that he did not know. Then he not only becomes an outstanding scientist but makes an amazing discovery of a new gas and receives a patent on it. He then goes off to war and dies. Is this a deux ex machina or what?

Somehow in the last pages of the book I had a great "AHA" moment. If my surmise is correct then it is a very clever plot to show us not a house but a crumbling marriage from the mans point of view. The house is symbolic in that the the Professor wants the old one . He lacks energy to adjust to the new one.-mainly because he despises growing old and realizing all that he has missed out on. He can't deal with the other members of his family but thinks of his own needs. He is deeply loved but he has not the strength to return that love. It is not depression but severe ennui that has hold of him. I finally empathize with this man who has lost his compass and is just 50 but feels like his life is over. Cather must have felt this too since the sense of misery is so strong that it comes through as totally true.

Thanks Ginny for your questions which I have not answered but which have opened up my mind to new ideas and new byways of thinking. Hopefully not as dangerous as the photo you put up or the adventures you described.

Judy

I drive them often on forest service dirt roads in the Sierra Nevadas. Funny thing is, when I am driving they don't bother me, although I've often wondered what would happen if I met an oncoming car. Luckily I've never had to find out. But I get AWFULLY nervous if someone else is behind the wheel, with me as a passenger. Don't know why the difference except that in the first scenario I feel I have some control and in the second I don't.

As for Tom Outland's story, I'm puzzled. Don't really know how it fits into the professor's story or why it's there. In fact, reading it made me wonder why Cather didn't write a whole book on Tom and his wonderful adventures out West. I would have preferred reading about that. What a find that cliff dwelling was!!! They are amazing.

My husband and I were scrambling around one of them one day and talking about "what in the world could have happened to these people?" since no one seems to know. My husband, being the perpetual comic came up with his own theory while standing at the very edge of one of these communities with the sheer cliff to the bottom. "Hey, I think their babies just fell over the edge while the adults weren't paying attention and so there was no perpetuation of the species." Of course it's a silly theory, but a fascinating puzzle. In the dwellings they must have been protected from any and all enemies. One wonders if the water dried up during a period of drought, but why did they not take their implements with them if they migrated? There are no skeletons, so it wasn't disease. All sorts of interesting theories, but no satisfactory conclusions.

The same thing that happened to Tom is still happening---the not enough interest to look into it by our own government or museums. Many of the artifacts are being bought by foreigners with lots of money. We are still selling our history because of lack of interest. At least these days the Indian tribes have some legal clout to put a stop to most of it. But while spending some months on the Navajo Rez and talking to current artists, most current Indian art is still being bought with European or Japanese money.

Oh, I feel better. I didn't forget about the Prof and Tom going to the Southwest together. I just got to that part. Whew! Maybe the mind is still here - somewhat.

Well, no wonder Lillian got jealous. The Prof and Tom go off on a trip together. Lillian has never worked that I can tell. This is the 20's. And “...Lillian couldn't pinch and be shabby and do housework, as the wives of some of his [Prof's] colleagues did.” Her girls must have been in school a good part of the time. What did Lillian do? Then her husband takes off - multiple times, it appears, with Tom, roaming around the Southwest and Mexico. They were even planning a trip to Paris which is where Lillian and the Prof met, right? No wonder she was jealous.

Doesn't sound like Brokeback Mt to me. They sound like pals with interests in common.

Marni,

That's what I believe too. Lillian is the one woman St. Peter loved. St. Peter had a place in his heart for both Lillian and Tom.

"He had had two romances: one of the heart, which had filled his life for many years, and a second of the mind--of the imagination. Just when the morning brightness of the world was wearing off for him, along came Outland and brought him a kind of second youth."

St. Peter shared a deep friendship for Tom. To find someone with your common interests and your value system does not happen everyday. It did happen to St. Peter. He did not allow the experience to pass by. St. Peter recognized the gift of friendship and grabbed at it like an innocent youth.

"Through Outland's studies, long after they had ceased to be pupil and master, he had been able to experience afresh things that had grown dull with use."

The turquoise and silver is here again. St. Peter's interests, writing books, teaching, etc. had grown old to him, lost their lustre like dull silver. Tom and his stories of the old west are the turquoise, the pure memories of a place and not a dream. Scootz describes it best, that turquoise and silver. Ginny gave mention of Scootz's interpretation. It's so beautiful.

Tom comes along with his stories of the Southwest, his pottery, the lives of the Pueblos lived in the caves,

"a boy with imagination, with the training and insight....the secrets which old trails and stones and watercourses tell only to adolescence."

St. Peter found his soulmate in a gentle friendship. The last friendship which was so strong it would last him the rest of his life.

The pictures drawn and taken of the Southwest by Willa Cather are worth the whole book to me. The descriptions of that world are incredible. I love Archaeology too. So, it all came together for me. I will never forget "Mother Eve." It made me realize again the importance of what is old vs. what is new. Dead bodies, on a dig, should never become desecrated. What was precious in one lifetime is precious in the next generation. Every body and every utensil tells a story.

While reading this part of the "The Professor's House," which brings together the new and old in such a magnificent way I remembered a short story written by Alice Walker. It's titled "Everyday Use." It's one of my favorite short stories. That theme of old and new came back to my mind. What is old can only enrich our lives. That theme alone should make us here at Seniornet feel empowered.

I love the gathering of so much literary history along the way too. Willa Cather seemed to leave no stone unturned.

I am so glad Tom's journal did not get thrown away like trash. Tom did find it up in the Eagle's Nest.

Ok, so yesterday after a few of you posted that you thought there could have been something between the Prof and Tom, I started googling. I wondered if anyone had actually said that before, or were we just reading into it?

Well, apparently it has been said before, and written about. I don't know why this tends to bother me, but it does. Oh, not the homosexual thing, I'm good with that, but if we are supposed to realize that Cather is talking about this or not. I'd like to know clearly if they had a friendship or more than that. It's only for me a matter of knowing clearly which it was- please don't misunderstand my concern, ok?

There is abook written about cather's sexuality in her novels, and THE PROFESSOR'S HOUSE is included. I can't tell without reading the book what the author thinks about TPH inre this subject.

For me, though, if there had been something between them,why would Tom have been about to marry the Prof's daughter?

It's a puzzle to me. I know some of you will say- "It doesn't matter to me if they did or didn't." But I'm left wondering, at the very least.

Here's the book, just in case anyone has an interest in this.

Cather/Homosexuality

deems- please chime in here- what is your take on all this? Although I gather from your posts yesterday that you think there was?

Oh, and btw- I came across, several times, talk of Mother Eve and her female "silent scream" and what that could have meant to Cather. I my have to try and read this book to see what I think. Over to amazon to look for a used copy!

From that page showing the Anders books:

Anders argues that Cather's artistic achievement is distinguished by her sexual aesthetics, an elusive literary style inextricably associated with homosexuality. His analysis demonstrates how a homosexual ethos and eros helped Cather develop a sensitivity to human variation and a style to accommodate it and thus became the objective correlative of her art, dramatizing the diversity of human nature as it deepens the mystery of her work."

What does that mean at the end there- "the object correlative of her art"?

I don't think Willa Cather's lifestyle needs to match the life choices of her characters. Many authors, I think, step in and out of their personalities to write about their characters. That's why, I think, it's difficult to match the author's life completely with the characters.

I had the same reaction that you did, Ginny. "I need to go back and reread "The Professor" part.

Obviously, we all knew that something was up with that dang stove. My initial reaction on one read- yes, it was sort of a half- hearted suicide attempt, with a reflexive action to save himself. As I have mentioned, to me he was in a very depressive state, much more than simple boredom. Had it been simply a case of bordeom, he would have gone to Europe. When you're depressed (and I mean clinical depression) you are paralyzed by your depression and unable even to get involved in life. He had resigned himself, and was ready to die- he seemed to feel he had no purpose any longer. I don't think he went to the attic with that purpose, but when it began to happen, he was unwilling to stop it. Sort of like- well, perhaps it's for the best. But old Augusta jumped in and saved him.

I do need to reread that last area. (I'll do that today later.)I was disappointed that questions I had were not answered for me. No pretty little pink ribbons tying things up in this bad boy! So, here's one question that remained unanswered for me-

What on earth could Rosamund and Tom have had in common? I kept thinking there was coming a story about them, why they fell in love. The two have absolutely nothing in common for me. Why did she even bother having Tom be affianced to Rosamund? Certainly, that would hav been a doomed marriage, don't you suppose?

In defense of depression- here are the symptoms, if this isn't the Professor, I don't know what is-

You feel miserable and sad. You feel exhausted a lot of the time with no energy . You feel as if even the smallest tasks are sometimes impossible. You seldom enjoy the things that you used to enjoy-you may be off sex or food or may 'comfort eat' to excess. You feel very anxious sometimes.

You don't want to see people or are scared to be left alone. Social activity may feel hard or impossible.

You find it difficult to think clearly.

You feel like a failure and/or feel guilty a lot of the time.

You feel a burden to others.

You sometimes feel that life isn't worth living.

You can see no future. There is a loss of hope. You feel all you've ever done is make mistakes and that's all that you ever will do. You feel irritable or angry more than usual.

You feel you have no confidence.

You spend a lot of time thinking about what has gone wrong, what will go wrong or what is wrong about yourself as a person. You may also feel guilty sometimes about being critical of others (or even thinking critically about them). You feel that life is unfair.

You have difficulty sleeping or wake up very early in the morning and can't sleep again. You seem to dream all night long and sometimes have disturbing dreams.

You feel that life has/is 'passing you by.'

You may have physical aches and pains which appear to have no physical cause, such as back pain.

It's this wealth of depression symptoms, and the broad scope that confuses many people as to what depression actually is. Explanations rarely cover all the symptoms, and everybody's experience is different.





The Learning Path will complete the picture for you. You will gain a complete understanding of depression that incorporates how we think, how depression affects our biology and where the physical symptoms of depression come from. We will come to that soon, but first a look at the causes of depression.

Causes of Depression: Next...





Depression | FAQ | Depression Learning Path www.clinical-depression.co.uk Copyright © 2001-2006 Uncommon Knowledge Ltd. All rights reserved.

For me, the Tom part had no "ah ha" for the rest of the book. As someone else mentioned, too, he's just "too perfect" to be believable to me. No mention of this science part of him that found/invented/discovered whatever it was he invented/found/discovered and patented that made him...or rather Rosamond... rich. No understanding of what transpired in the years between his coming to Hamilton at age 20 and his dying in the war at age 30. What transpired in those 10 years he was there in Hamilton--aside from some trips to the SW with the Prof? As Scootz first said...what's the "attraction/chemistry" between Rosamond and Tom? Has she changed so much being married to Louie? Where/when did he enter the picture?

I don't see it as a premeditated suicide attempt...just that his lethargy/depression/hopelessness caused him to not really care one way or the other...a kind of "whatever"...let "fate" decide.

I also ended with "Is this all there is?" to the story. One word on the book at this point..."disappointing."

I'm sure, though, after the others here have given their take, I'll see things I haven't seen at all in the text.

jane

The whole last 25 pages, entitled "The Professor" is, to me. The meat and potatoes of the book. Where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. Although some of the things I had questions about are not answered, a lot is put to rest for me. And I'm okay with Cather letting me figure some of it out on my own.

In Chapter 1,the Professor reflects back on the role of" chance "in his life. Chance brought Tom into his life, but chance also took Tom away. Tom was like a shot of adrenaline to the Professor -- he put "life" into his history volumes. Tom's entry into Godfrey's life inspired him as nothing else had.

I'm interested to see that even the Professor wonders about the success of a marriage between Tom and Rosamund.

" It would have had to "manage" a great deal of money, to be the instrument of a woman, who would grow always more exacting. He had escaped all that. He had made something new in the world -- and the rewards, the meaningless conventional gestures, he had left to others."

deems and barbara-- I am looking forward to seeing that sonata form again and having the two of you hash out whether it applies. Get busy!

I know nothing about the Illiad and the Odyssey or the Sonata. I sure would like to know. It might cap off the book.

I think that to the Prof Tom represented lost youth, with all its "ardour and excitement" as Cather puts it.

The Prof had an epiphany at the end as he thought about Tom and himself. The Prof discovered he was two different persons - himself as a youth, like Tom - and himself as a morphed version of his youth. He had allowed himself to be led "accidentally" (by chance and its chain of events) down the path of life that he took - to Paris, to the Thierault family, to Lillian, to teaching at the college, to his writing.

The morphed Prof was not the person he truly was deep down - the Tom - the primitive, interested "only in earth and woods and water." The Prof sees this all finally in his advanced state of depression. He feels outside of his body, that he is not who he appears on the outside.

Perhaps he is in a state of mourning that began with Tom's death. He mourned for Tom, but more so, he mourns for his own lost self, that he didn't live the life he would have preferred even though he had been happy enough until recently.

He sees Tom's death as Tom's escape from the inevitable change that would occurred in Tom's life as modern civilization, life's demands, and relationships pulled at Tom. Tom remains, therefore, to the Prof as the primitive ideal that the Prof now wishes he had remained.

The Prof, now so very unhappy, sees death approaching. He feels it. There is no more reason to live.

Yes, I think he attempts suicide. But I do think he deliberately made a last-ditch attempt to save himself, although it was too late. Augusta then saved him.

Perhaps the inner natural drive for self-preservation was stronger than the despair and search for escape. He realizes at the end that he has the strength to live on, albeit a life without joy.

There are some missing elements for me here. This is the 20's but there is little mention of the excesses we have heard about the Roaring 20's. Did Hamilton escape the madness?

Another thing, 50 was OLD then. Not like today where 50 is the new 30. (Cather, born in 1873, was in her 50's.) So we are not looking at a man in the full powers of his maturity but one who has turned the corner.

How can Cather's sexuality and life style NOT affect her work? I think she has idealized the male (Tom) and emphasized the negative charasteristics of the females, except Augusta. It isn't that her writing is autobiographical, but that her own self colors her observations.

I was disappointed with the book. I did think the first section led me to think much more would come. I thought there were many unanswered questions, some of which are above:

Why was Tom going to marry Rosamond?
What was going on with Tom and K. before he was engaged to R.?
Why did the Prof decide to write about the Southwest, not having been there etc.?

However, what we see in the first section does have an important purpose. And I'm thinking some questions ARE answered. For example, maybe Tom's engagement to Rosamond showed us the beginnings of modern civilization's affect on Tom, the primitive. Rosamond, who has absolutely no redeeming qualities that I can see, is his selection for a spouse. You'd think he'd choose the opposite. He is being influenced. Maybe, like the Prof, he had allowed chance to pull at him and let him drift into relationships and another life. Perhaps, like the Prof, Tom would morph into a new being outside of himself.

In the first section, we are shown modern society, its ugliness, brutality, pettinesses, bickerings and hatreds, meaninglessness. Tom is part of this, but in the early stages.

Maybe that's why Tom enlisted when Father Duchene came along to go to war. Maybe Tom saw what was happening to himself and wanted out?

In the second section, we saw the idealism and beauty of youth in Tom, the primitive, who was one with nature and ancient uncivilized humankind. We can contrast it to modern civilization.

In the last section, we see the Prof's epiphany, despair, attempted suicide, and resignation to live in the present without joy.

marni- as to your post #466- I couldn't have said it all better myself. So I'll let your fabulous post do that for me. Agree with all your points. And yes, what was that thing that Kathleen only told Scott? Was it indeed a love for Tom as well?

INre disappointment about TPH. When we were nominating books with "house" in the title, I went to amazon, plugged in the word "house" and out spat hundreds of titles. The first one I came to that was of any interest to me was TPH. And so I nominated it, knowing Cather only through O! PIONEERS. I didn't like this book as much as that one- but they are vastly different, imho, so that makes sense. Since I want to read all of Cather's works, though, I can't say I'm sorry I read this one. And certainly the discussion has been awesome---totally awesome!

I read two bios, and a book of short works, also while we had this chat and I will read the one about sexuality in her work as I think it's important in the overall understanding of her work.

There are several important houses in the book:

The Professor has his old house where the family lived for years, where he has his attic, the room with a view of the lake, where he is comfortable. Interesting how he knows this room can cause death with its unstable gas heating element. Maybe that's why he doesn't want to leave it? Maybe underneath he needs to know he has a way out, like Tom had, if life becomes too unbearable?

Tom, the orphan, found a house on Blue Mesa, the ancient house of the cliff dwellers. He lived there in solitufe for awhile and was happy.

The Professor has built a new house. It symbolizes modernity. His family is looking forward to living there. To the Prof, it represents all he despises about his life currently, the impact of technology and civilization on man, the pull away from nature and art.

I think a fourth house is the house of death. He can get to the house of death from his old house. "Lying on his old couch, he could almost believe himself in that house already. The sagging springs were like the sham upholstery that is put in coffins. Just the equivocal American way of dealing with serious facts, he reflected. Why pretend that it is possible to soften that last hard bed?”

Thanks, Scootz! I'm not at all sorry we decided to read the book you suggested. I had read only one Cather (My Antonia, which I enjoyed very much) and I was very interested in reading another of her books. We can't love everything we read.

-----------------------

Oh, I thought of another question. The Professor's name St. Peter. I was really into this symbolism thing. I thought surely his name meant something important. Does it? I was expecting some revelation about it to whack me over the head. Nope. I don't see it. What am I missing?

The house called "Outland" was an important house. There is great irony here, I think. The house of Rosamond and Louis is as far from Tom's house on Blue Mesa as you can get. It represents everything of the present that money can buy.

You can see almost the "throw-away society" in the house Outland. Louis and Rosamond decide they want to change their furniture, so they are going to get rid of their old furniture.

And we see one of the nastiest things of all - Rosamond refuses to offer the old furniture to her sister, despite Louis' pleadings. This is like the supreme petty behavior of all we have seen in the book.

Tom would have hated the house Outland that his money bought, the house that was named after him. Should we call the house "Inland"?

My husband was born and raised on a Navajo Reservation in the Four Corners. His father was a butcher who worked for U.S. Army and he and his brother were the only blue-eyed blonds on the Reservation. As a child his friends and playmates were the Navajos. When he started school they wouldn't let him go to the Indian school, but sent him to the white school in Galup, New Mexico. After that his relations with the Indians hardened, but he still felt the "religious experience." I was privileged to go to the Taos Pueblo in New Mexico in the 1960s. I was pregnant with my first child so they wouldn't let me climb the ladders, but I was taken to a "long house" where the council met. It was truly an emotional experience as I touched the walls I felt an awe inspiring experience - I almost want to say supernatural experience very much like what Cather describes in Chapter 7 in Tom Outland's part:

"...I wakened with the feeling that I had found everything, instead of having lost everything. Nothing tired me. Up there alone, a close neighbor to the sun, I seemed to get the solar energy in some direct way. And at night, when I watched it drop down behind the edge of the plain below me, I used to feel that I couldn't have borne another hour of the consuming light, that I was full to the brim, and needed dark and sleep."

But this is where I've become disappointed with Cather's writing. I realize that not everyone has the same experience, but the emotion that St. Peter felt just didn't make sense to me. He felt "something" because it improved his writing so that he sold his volumes, but what that "something" was is a mystery to me until I read where Howard Carter discovered the tomb of Tut on 4 November 1922 and opened the tomb on November 26th. Tutankhamen had been practically unknown before the discovery, but news of Carter's amazing find made "King Tut" a household name.

According to legend there was a curse put upon those who opened the tomb. To me St. Peter is acting just like a man who has been cursed not someone who has gone through a spiritual experience. In Chapter 3: "We were reluctant to expose those silent and beautiful places to vulgar curiosity. Finally we outlined our plan to Henry, telling him we couldn't promise him regular wages.

"We won't mention it," he said, waving his hand. "I'd ask nothing better than to share your fortunes. In me youth it was me ambition to go to Egypt and see the tombs of the Pharaohs."

To me Cather made her characters, especially St. Peter, act like they were tomb robbers rather than the spiritual experience that Tom describes in Chapter 7.

To me it wasn't the land or their artifacts that gave me my spiritual experience, but rather it was being with the people. We may not have spoken the same language, but by watching their ceremonies I understood better their attachment to the land. Than again maybe it was both.

One other thing that disturbed me was Cather referring to the old woman that they found that she might be "unfaithful" to her husband. It shows that Cather did very little research in regard to the American Indian culture before she wrote her tale. In American Indian culture if a woman wants to leave her husband, she leaves and returns to her mother's family. It is as simple as that.

The ancient peoples that Outland were referring to were called the Anaszi. This American culture flourished in southern Colorado and Utah and northern New Mexico and Arizona. Their descendants are considered to include the present-day Pueblo people. Anaszi culture included basket weaving and was marked by the construction of cliff dwelling. They were also experienced pottery makers. I believe that the pottery that Tom showed and gave to St. Peter and his wife was this Anaszi pottery. The Anaszi were wiped out by an unknown force, but so the legend goes, their spirits still reside in the cliff dwellings. It is these spirits, again according to legend, that one feels when they enter these dwellings. Some of course are more sensitive than others when it comes to feeling or seeing "spirits."

It seems everybody wanted a piece of Tom. Why wouldn't Rosamond be interested? He could tell wonderful stories. Enough said. And Kathleen, at first wanted everything her sister wanted. In the end, Rosamond realizes how insulting it would be for Louie to offer her sister and husband that used furniture. Louie with his entrepenurial flair has created a have/havenot situation in the family.

Roddy Blake and Tom had a father/son relationship going, Tom tells us. But the Mesa is large, honeycombed with canyons. Exploring them all could, probably will, make Cather more exciting for some. Or, more correctly, Tom and his secret life.

He got very close St. Peter. On the other hand, he spent a lot of his time with Dr Crane. But with his Baptist prejudices, of which St. Peter has talked, it's improbable that Crane's relationship with Tom was anything other than professional. On the other hand, Crane seems to have lived most of his life away from home, away from Mrs Crane.

It's Tom's relationship with Father Duchene that is most puzzling. The good priest and teacher comes to Hamilton from nowhere when war breaks out in Europe. Within days he has Tom talked into going with him. Off he goes to war, after quickly making up a will, in which he forgets all his friends, and gets killed.

"A hot-headed youth", Louie says about Tom, and wishes that he could have made his acquaintance. It's Louie's love for Tom that is the greatest mystery. Building magnificent OUTLANDS as a shrine to his memory! Very odd.

Oh Cather. What hast thou wrought!

I'm having such a good time reading everyone's ideas about what does and doesn't make sense! Not to mention what we never find out that you were hoping maybe we would.

So, there is much to speculate about, isn't there?

There's nothing--zip--nada--about any courtship of Tom and Rosamonde. I can think of quite a few reasons for this. First, Cather never married, and she didn't write any books with the conventional "marriage plot" that was popular in her day. I doubt she knew much about courtship and she certainly wasn't interested in it.

But, come on now, would Tom have ever chosen Rosamonde over Kathleen who is smarter? I think it can be reasonably assumed that both little girls develop a crush on Tom, the sunbronzed and gorgeous. Somehow or other, he picked Rosamonde. Whatever. Maybe Tom was just going for the "more beautiful" one, but that kind of doesn't make sense with the rest of him, does it?

Jonathan--You remind us that Father D. arrives from nowhere to lure Tom off to war. And then there's Louie's unexplained fondness for Tom whom he never met. I think he thinks kindly of Tom because of all the money made from his discovery.

The sonata thing needs Barbara here, but she mentioned that it had two contrasting themes. This book certainly has that--stuff about the professor, his family, the attic and the chickens--with a Tom sandwich in the middle.

It's this tripartite structure which has caused some critics to suggest that the novel never really works because the parts don't fit together.

Partially because I read the book online, I was really jumped by "Tom's Story" which seemed to me to be interrupting what we had been talking about, to wit, what was the professor going to do to get Tom's brief diary published with an introduction. That's his next project.

Flip to first person narrator from third person; flip from Lake Michigan to out west, and then to the mesa; flip from a plot that has many women in it to a plot that is, at least on the mesa, exclusively male. HUH?

Structurally this doesn't work for me.

Part of my job is teaching writing. I generally remember to tell the class that if they are going to have divisions in a paper, they will need three or more. It is a general guideline of writing to never divide a piece of writing into two because readers are ornery and it is somewhere deep inside our DNA to, if offered two of anything, judge between them. Most readers, presented with a short paper divided into two, will declare that Part A is better than Part B or the other way around.

What Cather's really done here is to divide the subject matter of her novel into two. There's the professor part and the Tom part. Sure, there are some links between the two, but not many.

Maybe she thought that by putting the Tom part in the middle, she could get away with it, or maybe she was doing something else completely. I don't think it works.

Cather did visit Mesa Verde herself and apparently was eager to write about it.

More later on the problem of the Tom chapters later.

Scootz--I read you post and I'm trying to think of how to explain what I see here. It's not easy (to think of a way to explain it).

I wish I could write short posts! hahaha New questions going up, what would YOU like to ask or say, about the million and one new thoughts and points SO FAR today? And the day's still young!

Has anyone remarked yet that Rosamonde is pregnant and the professor's family is returning early from Europe?

Is that supposed to give us some sort of hope for the future?

And what about "Mother Eve," the mummy of the youngish woman found in the cliff city? Did you all notice what happened when they tried to bring her down the cliff?

And what's she doing in this story? She's the only woman on the mesa and she's dead.

And I think that if a man, Indian or no, found his wife in the embrace of another man, he might well kill her and the other man. Isn't this why Tom (is it Tom?) suggests that she might have been unfaithful?

We-he-he-ell!! I am, my head is spinning! LOL

deems- Please think about it and do try to give me an answer of some sort.

Ginny- no, I never said anything was between any of them of a sexual nature, did I? If I did, I lied. I'm not sure what is going on inre the levels of friendship here.

deems again- thanks for that info re dividing a work into two. It makes sense and I've heard that before in my past somewhere. I don't know if you read Julia Glass' THREE JUNES but she did what she called a Tryptych (sp.?) style and many didn't like it either. I'm ok with Cather's structure- hey, who am I to judge? I have no Pulitzer after all. I did think the lengths of the parts were odd- a longy, a shorty and a shorty-er! LOL

I can't make any more comments because I have only reread chapter one in the last section so far. But I shall, I shall! Again, Ginny, my first impression was that yes, the Professor was pretty much done with his marriage. I wasn't clear on where he was going or what he was doing next but I felt sure he was done with worrying about the family.

More tomorrow morning with my coffee! I'll be wavin' at you, hats!!

Actually, I think it's all pretty normal for someone who is slightly introverted and intellectual like the professor, to get to around 50 and begin questioning everything about his life and grappling with all sorts of regrets. It's sort of a "male menopause" in a way. He had just finished a large project and was left in an empty space from which he could only look backwards and wonder about his own decisions, and the way society had changed (not to his liking). However, after just "letting" the stove do it's damage to him and being saved by Augusta, I think the professor has come to a point of acceptance. I see him as "growing old" from this point on, unless he finds another inspiration, which is not something his family can do for him.

As for how Tom fits in, I'm not really sure except that they were intellectual soul mates, and most likely the professor's depression began as early as Tom's death, and just went deeper from there. Tom had so much potential, honesty, character, brains, that it had to be extremely sad to know he had died.

The fact that Tom chose Rosamund to be his wife seems contrived to me. I don't think a man like Tom would have chosen her. If he chose her for her looks only, it shows a flaw in his character, which the rest of the description of him doesn't verify. And I still believe Kathleen was in love with Tom and her tension with Rosamund began when Tom chose the other. However, Rosamund was right when she refused to give their old furniture to Kathleen and Scott. Kathleen would have resented her for it, since her sister's cast-offs are, at this stage, not something Kathleen would have appreciated or looked on as an act of kindness.

The book is a puzzle to me, and frankly, the two parts should have been two different books. In my mind Cather struck out on this one even though her characters (the professor and Tom) are fascinating when standing alone.

Hey, Scootz, I will write something about it.

I loved your "I'm ok with Cather's structure- hey, who am I to judge? I have no Pulitzer after all. I did think the lengths of the parts were odd- a longy, a shorty and a shorty-er!"

Yes, that too, the length is very odd.

And, since books were written for readers, I see no earthly reason for you not to judge. You don't have to be a writer to judge a book. You just have to read a lot. And even then, critics never agree about why a book succeeds or what it succeeds at anyway.

Join the fray.

There is no love on Louie's part. He just likes the money. Louie reminds me of a double-talking, back-slapping, manipulative opportunist---and that is all. The professor was probably also depressed that such a man was now part of the family.

Sorry, but I can't see him as benign or generous at all.

What you won't wave at all of us??

Well, it's just that hats and I seem to have an "early birds club" going. We meet in our jammies at daybreak. If you're nice, we might ask you to join too!

Please stop posting so I can go get dinner started!! <<<(joke)

No problem on the homosexual thing, Ginny. Just being clear that I hadn't made up my mind yet on that.

I think the professor was depressed too. I don't feel he meant to take his life. St. Peter's depression made him lethargic. This didn't give him the will to move. I think St. Peter accepted death and was ready to go to his reward. I don't think he would have killed himself.

There are so many posts I can't keep up. I am just reading the comments and digesting each one.

Scootz, your right about our jammie party. Others should join us nothing like a late night party. At times, JoanK comes along too.

"Doesn't the Professor reflect that ol Tom would not have wanted the proceeds and the material gain and right after that go into his funk?"

Both Tom and the professor are NON-materialistic. The thought that all Tom stood for (which is very plain in the way he dealt with his friend when the friend sold all the artifacts behind his back) makes it very clear where Tom stands. The professor understands that Tom would not have wanted the proceeds and material gain, nor have a house named after him. That is depressing---to watch as all that Tom stood for gets turned inside-out after his death. It's a betrayal that the professor is having a difficult time with, and Louie is the leader of the betrayal with Rosamund a close second, and Lillian running third. Not a pretty picture to see a friend betrayed by his own family, I would say.

Yes, I think Tom would have been unhappy with what happened to the money. I can't see Tom living in that new house. I can't see Tom buying a house and naming the house after himself.

That makes me ask a question I can not answer. When money is willed to a person, doesn't that person have the right to do with it what they want? If the deceased person wanted their money spent in a specific way, they would write their desires in the will.

Of course, Tom was young. Maybe he didn't think about his death. If that's the case, what do you do then? I think Louie and Rosamund should have bequeathed some of the money to a reservation or a Native American museum.

Ginny--I don't see any evidence that Tom wrote anything at all except that slim diary when he was on the mesa.

Here are the two applicable quotes about the experience of knowing Tom and Toms diary.

"If the last four volumes of The Spanish Adventurers were more simple and inevitable than those that went before, it was largely because of Outland. When St. Peter first began his work, he realized that his great drawback was the lack of early association, the fact that he had not spent his youth in the great dazzling South-west country which was the scene of his explorers' adventures. By the time he had got as far as the third volume, into his house walked a boy who had grown up there, a boy with imagination, with the training and insight resulting from a very curious experience; who had in his pocket the secrets which old trails and stones and water-courses tell only to adolescence."

This passage follows in the next chapter (2)

"He (the professor) had begun, in a desultory way, to annotate the diary that Tom had kept on the mesa, in which he had noted down the details of each day's work among the ruins, along with the weather and anything unusual in the routine of their life. There was a minute description of each tool they found, of every piece of cloth and pottery, frequently accompanied by a very suggestive pencil sketch of the object and a surmise as to its use and the kind of life in which it had played a part. To St. Peter this plain account was almost beautiful, because of the stupidities it avoided and the things it did not say. If words had cost money, Tom couldn't have used them more sparingly. The adjectives were purely descriptive, relating to form and colour, and were used to present the objects under consideration, not the young explorer's emotions. Yet through this austerity one felt the kindling imagination, the ardour and excitement of the boy, like the vibration in a voice when the speaker strives to conceal his emotion by using only conventional phrases."

By the time the professor reads Tom's diary his own work is behind him. Even if he read it earlier, it is very specific to the exploration Tom and Roddy undertook of the cliff city. This would give him no information about his topic, the Spanish explorers who came to the new land.

What Tom gave the professor was his presence and his background in the southwest and the energy to feel that he was young again.

"When money is willed to a person, doesn't that person have the right to do with it what they want? If the deceased person wanted their money spent in a specific way, they would write their desires in the will."

Yes, I agree that money willed can be spent any way the person who inherits it wishes to spend it. But, it's always sad when you know the person who left the money behind and what they would have done with it, and see it spent in ways that were totally against the grain. It's not a matter of money. It's a matter of life style and principles.

Frankly, I have no idea why Tom would have become engaged to Rosamund in the first place, or why he would have left whatever money or inventions he had to her. Somehow the plot doesn't "ring" quite right about that. I think that's also one of Kathleen's resentments. Kathleen and her father are very much alike, and both of them are disappointed in what has happened to Tom's assets in Louie's and Rosamund's hands. I think Kathleen made that clear when she said she liked "our Tom better". They both realized what sort of person Tom was, while Rosamund did not, and certainly Louie has no clue and doesn't care.

I think Tom was also naive about what sort of stipulations to put in his will. He probably had no idea what sort of invention he had on his hands or that it could even make a lot of money. But I don't think he would have spent it in the same fashion as Rosamund and Louie did. Tom would probably have set up a charitable trust of some sort to help society instead of himself.

Anyhow, that's my "take" on the subject, but I do think the plot is rather poorly constructed and doesn't make a whole lot of sense---although sometimes real life doesn't make a lot of sense either.