Are we all reading the Queen Lucia for the January Book Club Online? It's a must read if you haven't read it, you'll want to know what, for Pete's sake, all the shouting is about. I have started our VCR tape of the BBC/PBS video of the series, Mapp and Lucia, on its way, and Carol will mail it to the next person who wants it, so do speak up!! Email me and get on the list!!

This video series is interesting, in that it's the British version, and has many little snippets never seen in America, which DO add a good bit to the plot. It starts in what is actually Book IV of the series, Mapp and Lucia but is a perfect starting place if you want to get a fix on the characters in Book I. It will be fun to discuss the DIFFERENCES in the text and the depiction.

EF Benson was the son of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and lived the life he wrote of, in spades. If you've read all the series, you'll not be surprised to learn that he was, as his tombstone asserts, "Three times Mayor of Rye." He also was visited by Queen Mary. Alas, the "Garden Room" of Mallards (EF Benson's actual home, formerly inhabited by Henry James, in Rye, England) is gone, destroyed in the bombing of WWII.

Hope to see you all in the discussion!!

Ginny

Nancy Hoving's copy arrived today! Wouldn't it be grand to have her join us?
Welcome Nancy!!!
We must be positive about such things...

Can Hardly wait to start... I found the Lucia Series after reading some of the posts here... Then I found my own copy of "Make Way for Lucia." I must be about half way through the series but it's good enough to be re-read several times... Keep finding comparisons even in this small community.

I am here and ready for January .I love Lucia and have read them all several times. I also would love to see the videos. Priced them and they seemeed a tad on the expensive side.

Pat: great, I'm so glad you're enjoying it!!

Steph: yes, they are a tad pricey, aren't they?? Their release is the work of an avid and faitful band of Bensonites who have pleaded and demanded and cried at the BBC for years to no avail. Have no clue as to why they suddenly wanted to release them.

Here's the order of the Progress of the Tapes??

Carol has them now,
Then to Larry
Then to Charlotte
Then to May...
Then to Steph??
What about you, Pat??

Ella can get hers in the library, everybody sign up, it's only the one tape and it comes by regular mail, and I guess you're sending it on reimburses the person who just got it? A little frazzled this am, but think that's how it should work??

Anyway, the tapes are, I hope, 5 on one tape, and show the series Mapp and Lucia as it appeared on British TV. If you saw the American PBS, you'll see more in each episode which was cut out in America, in this British set. One entire episode is new. Then there's a sequel, but we're, as yet, not sharing those as they are in separate volumes.

Mapp and Lucia is the FOURTH book in the series, so you will not be looking at an actual tape of Queen Lucia, but you will really get the flavor of the characters and we can enjoy discussing the difference between our impression of the characters and the depictions on the film. You'll see the Fete, and Daisey, and Georgie and Lucia as well as all the marvelous characters in Tilling-on-Sea.

The film was made in "Tilling," (Rye, England) but they did NOT use the actual Mallards, which is the house in which EF Benson lived, previously owned by Henry James.

More later, will put list in heading.

Ginny

Please, Ginny put my name on the list.. I think it would be great to see the tapes.

Hope you're having a "party time" in NYC.

Ah, Pat, yes we did, and I look forward to seeing you at the next one!!!

Your name is on the LIST! And I'll put it in the heading right now!

Who else??

Ginny

I'm ready to send the tapes on. Larry, you're next on the list. If you'll email me your address, I'll send them on. cabran@wetv.net

Carol, I did send you my e-mail address. I am looking forward to viewing the videos, which I will do as soon as they arrive, and then get them on the way to Charlotte.

Larry

Thanks, Larry. I know you did. For some unknown reason, I wrote the message here first. Then it dawned on me I knew how to email you personally so I went and did so. But this message was already here. Not quite used to this web thing yet. so please ignore above message.

Please add my name to the tape list. This has been sounding like a lot of fun!
Joan

You got it, Joan!!

Ginny

My goodness, such activity in this folder already! Ginny, please add me to the list too. I've already read "Queen Lucia" but it was 2 books ago and will have to re-read when the discussion begins.

Eileen Megan

Eileen! from Brockton!!!!!! I can see your face getting on the elevator! I am so glad you made the trip. You are right! The four hours went by too fast, but it was worth it! I can see you!

I can see her, too, Joan!! Yes, 4 hours in the car and she just glowed!!

You're up, Megan!

Ginny

Oh shoot, the discription of these novels sound just too jolly to ignore. I have not seen the PBS series nor read the book therefore, this whole exercise ought to bring me the excitment of new characters during a time in history when little things still counted. I remember first reading Woodhouse and laughing out loud while my babies napped and from the preview above a little of the charm in "To the Manor Born" ought to prevail. Yes, sign me up - my life is full but as the old saw goes, I can make up for lost sleep during the loooong sleep.

I don't get back til Jan. 3, - hopefully I can find a copy in Greenville SC and read on my return flight. They do have a Barnes a Noble in Greenville, do you think they will stock this book?

Yes, yes I too would love to see these tapes. How does the round robin work. Oh I'm sure all this will be made clear and just now I must get through this month rather then filling my head with what comes next. Merry Christmas Y'all

Barbara: If you love Wodehouse and you love To the Manor Born, you are about to experience the treat of a lifetime! Yes, you are now on the list. The tapes are being viewed in the order you see above, and they are WELL worth the wait, I think, even if they don't get to you till January 2000!

DO they have a B&N in Greenville? Boy, do they!!!!! And the next time you come to Greenville, let's have lunch!!! I don't live in Greenville, but go there all the time. After the holidays are over and I lose 80 lbs, we'll meet for lunch: I want to shake your hand!

Ginny

And if the B&N in Greenville doesn't have it, you can always click on the B&N clickable here and have it delivered in an instant, with 7% going to SeniorNet.

Ginny

The other night Nova was about psychics, not my cup of tea, so I surfed over to another PBS channel. Mapp and Lucia: Lobster Pot. What a treat! Georgie's little boy pout, Lucia's devastating guile, Mapp's straightforward rivalry. Put me on the list, too, please. Since I rarely have control of the clicker, I will wait for the rest of the tale to unfold. Isn't Lucia the actress who was in Mulberry Tales, or whatever it was?

Jackie, isn't she something? I don't know Mulberry Tales, don't TELL me I missed something! You are on the list. The issue will be, for me, YOUR impressions of Geraldine McEwan in the role of Lucia. I can't wait to discuss both book and tapes, and we can do so simultaneously. I have another copy of the tapes, will see about mailing them, for some reason I have two copies, but this second set are in 5 volumes. Still, who cares?

Ginny

Ahhh. Ginny that is a high pitched wonderment sound. How wonderful, I cannot get over this, my word, Greenville South Carolina. Oh how great Ginny I can't wait. I will email my daughter's phone # etc. What a Christmas suprise. You have made my day1

Ginny, goody, goody I'm on the list! What a nice complement, thank you. What 80 lbs you tall, slim lady, don't forget I saw you!

Joan, I can see you too, isn't it great! Next time maybe we can play "musical chairs" so we can get to chat with everybody!

Eileen Megan

Due to the high degree of interest, we will soon be circulating more than one copy of the tape, I have, as I think I said, three purchased copies. That way we can all see them in plenty of time.

Ginny

Ginny: Mulberry did not appeal to everyone. On of the most dedicated Anglophiles I knew hated it. She played an elderly eccentric who was no longer interested in living. Mulberry was a mysterious "son" of someone who controled when people died. He was supposed to help her along (not kill her, just facilitate her preparations for leaving). Mulberry, however, got too close to his job, and was acttively repairing the rifts in her life. Gentle, cozy, sweet. The sweetness was lightly applied with a brush, not drenched as it would have been in Hollywood.

Thank you, Ginny, for having more than one set for us to view. Got the book; loved the preface. Nothing is more fun for a bookie than to be an a bandwagon that nobody else even knows about. Although there are Lucia and Mapp societies, We have our own SN version. Has there been a psychological analysis done of the differences between those who favor Lucia and those who favor Mapp? From my brief introduction to the PBS version, I see Lucia as cunning and manipulative while Mapp seemed much more overt.

I like Mapp....

Jackie, as a full fledged long time member of the Tilling Society, which has discussed every sentence and period of the series and every other thing Benson wrote, with recipes and asides, etc., I can truly say that nobody has EVER EVER mentioned that angle??!!?? ONCE AGAIN proving that OUR books clubs are the BEST!!

That group has Harvard Profs, people in England, you name it, they are there. They all take on the personna of a character? So they sign their names Daisy or Twistevant or whoever and it's.....surreal.

Then, not to mention, if I may say so, they are just a little snobbish??? Jump on a grammar mistake? And even tho the moderator tries to keep order, naturally hard feelings develop. I mean, really. Don't correct my grammar in public, especially in a snotty way.

So I actually have created a new folder in my mail just for them? And I filter every letter in there and in fact have gotten some great stuff for our folder, too bad I deleted the million messages before it....and I can truly say that they need you all, as none of them have ever come up with such an insight. It will be great to know, like Pat W said, whom we identify with or like more!

Ginny

Stopped briefly at the Library yesterday and looked up Benson's Mapp and Lucia - they have it. Now I'm confused; in looking at the heading here, I see the book is "Queen Lucia." Shall I get that one, I didn't look for that. You can understand I'm starting from scratch here, having no prior knowledge of the books or tapes.

Also should I start with Episode One on the tapes? They seem to have them all at our Library.

Yes,Mapp and Lucia is about the middle of the books. You can start there, but for serious fun, start at the beginning. Lucia needs sliding into. The Lucia society sounds a bit warped, but fun.

Thanks, Stephanie. Merry Christmas - should not be saying it, but will be glad when the hubbub is over and I can settle into my old routine. Some grouch, eh!

Ella, the Mapp & Lucia tape series is the only one on tape. The Mapp & Lucia book IS the fourth book in the series, of which Queen Lucia is the first.

So you will NOT be looking at an actual tape of the book Queen Lucia (as far as I know no tape has been made of it) but you will be looking at the best place to start the tapes, that was very clever of them.

Miss Mapp and Tilling are marvelous. It's like looking at previews of movies to come, really whets the appetite for more. Mapp and Lucia the book is also a treasure and the video series is wonderful at depicting it.

The tapes give you Lucia in the flesh, Georgie, Daisey, the Fete, and tho Peppino is dead, and the tapes actually start out with her mourning of Peppino and the Fete, the wonderful characterizations by the Wyses and Major Benjy and Mapp and Lucia will stick in your mind forever.

That's why it's a grand thing to view them if you can.

If you enjoy the Mapp & Lucia series, Tom Holt did two sequels, and they are both delightful and very memorable. I recommend them highly. He occasionally presents new short stories to the Tilling Society on their annual meeting in the fall in Rye, England. His mother is the mystery author....is it Hazel Holt? or Helen Holt? Can't remember.

Ginny

Ginny

Thanks, Ginny. I have a lot to learn here - they have a society in Rye, England that is just for discussing this series? What fun that would be. Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas, Ella, how wonderful that I can SEE you, too, now when I type. Yes, they have TWO Societies? One is called the Benson Society, THE Society, I guess, for Benson and his works.

The other is called the Tilling Society, which used to be run by Tony and Cynthia Reavell who owned and ran the Martello Bookstore in Rye, England, which is featured in the series.

This group has newsletters and a sort of Gathering in Rye in the fall. They meet at the Inn for Luncheon and a program and then walk to the cemetery to visit Benson's grave. They customarily dress, those who'd like to, that is, in period costume. I will try to find some photos of one of the gatherings, the address of the society (I was banned, I think) and the List Serve of the Benson Society if anyone is interested....

At issue with the Tilling Society the last time I heard was the placing of a plaque on Lamb House in Rye which would indicate that EF Benson actually lived there? Henry James owned the house before Benson, and his name is on a plaque, but there was none for Benson, at least the last time I was there in 1997. It may now be up, the group has labored mightily for that recognition. When you see the series and the Church tower, you can still climb to the top of the church tower, the whole place is cobblestoned and magic. If you are thinking of a trip to England, I'd not miss Rye, with it's Henry VIII runis, Camber Castle, little known and little visited, and its wonderful ...well, you can see the architecture in the film, if you don't plan a trip, and get the flavor of it and never leave home.

Ginny

I got it! I GOT IT! Went to the Greenville Barnes and Noble last night while my daughter finished her shopping at the mall. Of course I never get out of a bookstore with one book. Found the new Booker Award "Amsterdam".

Rye - I must pull out my photos - remember staying an old old inn with low ceiling rooms and various levels of stairs. How great to have some mental pictues while reading this.

Are any of our English contributers reading this book? It would be so nice to have their input of daily life during these times in Britian.

Pat et al: Thanks for the Holiday Greetings. I hope to go to the Library tomorrow to see if I can get this book; better still, I will call and save myself a trip.

I am afraid I don't know just what you are talking about in reference to the tapes. Are they video? Tape recorder? How would I get it if I signed up?

Merry Christmas all - Stopped by the library and was delighted to find the complete Lucia anthology, "Make Way for Lucia." Am looking forward to a good read this weekend. Ginny, please put me on the list for the tapes. I remember the series on PBS. It was a hoot and a howl!

Lousie, you're ON! Yes, it was a hoot, exactly that! I can't wait to discuss not only the book but the tapes, will be such fun.

Barbara: definitely pull out those photos, I lack one of The George, tho somewhere I have a fabulous one looking out the main door.

Betty: The tapes are video tapes which played on PBS some time ago. We're sharing them with each other, mailing them along. If you'd like to get on the list just say so, and you'll get them in the mail passed along. Actually, these tapes do NOT cover the Queen Lucia book except incidentally, as they start with Book IV, Mapp & Lucia , but they are invaluable for visualizing the actual scenes of the town, the atmosphere and the characterizations. It was shot on location in Rye, England, but Mallards in the PBS series is NOT the actual house, so we'll post a photo of that for reference.

Queen Lucia is the first book in a series, 6 in all, written by EF Benson and two more sequels written by Tom Holt. They are PG Wodehouse- like vignettes of life in England in the 30's I guess and 40's? Am not sure of the dates.

The TAPES concern themselves with Book IV, Mapp and Lucia and following. They are British tapes, so what our PBS stations left out, they have left in, including one whole episode not seen on American TV. So if you are a Benson afficianado and you think you've seen the tapes, you really haven't. They are quite different.

Nigel Hawthorne, of The Madness of King George and Yes, Minister fame, plays Georgie. Prunella Scales, of Fawlty Towers fame, plays Miss Mapp.

The characterizations are bold and flesh out the characters vividly, and are a delight. They are also a HOOT, as Louise says.

They also arrived at Larry's totally soaked in the rain, box ruined, yet he says the bubble wrap saved them. He's to mail them back to me and I'll send out fresh tapes, in a ziplock and we can go again. We'll have three circulating, so do sign up now, you'll want to see these characterizations.

EF Benson wrote the life he lived. The son of the Archbishop of Canterbury, he was, as his tombstone asserts, Three Times Mayor of Rye. The Queen did visit Benson, who lived in Rye, England. If, by chance, you've not read the series, this is your holiday gift, and you, hopefully won't regret it. If you do, we can chat over that, too!

Ginny

I viewed the first three episodes yesterday afternoon and will finish them today or tomorrow and try to mail the tape back to Ginny on Friday. They are very enjoyable, although must admit am having somewhat of a problem understanding all of the dialog. They are very well acted and certainly believable characters. I have about 70 pages of the Queen Lucia book to finish so hope to be ready for the discussion.

Larry

Have just had word from Larry that he's sent the tapes on, so in a trice we'll have three circulating. So I need addresses, Charlotte, May and Steph so I can send them on. Charlotte, come to think of it, yours is on the program, and May, I've got yours, so Steph that leaves you.. As each one of you finishes with it, please look on the list and contact the next person for their address. Don't rush thru these, they're not the rushable kind.

Our Joan P says she'll certainly be in attendance for the Lucia but is not leading it, as she's busy with the GB, so we'll all meander thru the delights of Lucia together en masse. Perhaps we'll take this one a little differently, in deference to its different nature. If you've got any suggestions, shout em out.

In doing a little research for the heading I stumbled on the startling fact that (I knew this) not only are there TWO Benson Societies (the Tilling and the Benson) but (I didn't know this) each has yearly pilgrimages concered with Benson. The Tilling Society had TWO last year and boasts more than 600 members. They are primarily concerned with the Lucia novels. The Benson Society concerns itself with all of EF Benson's works (he's a noted ghost story writer) and had, at their last gathering, the regrettable news that George Bernard Shaw could not attend but that PD James would be there?? Hello????

I thought Shaw was deceased. Obviously these people move in elevated circles.

Ginny

Ginny,

I have ordered the book and am waiting for it to arrive. I think I will surely be able to read it without any trouble. I would like to be put on the list for the tapes please.

Joan

Hope the proper person reads this: Yes, I would like to see the tapes. Just tell me what is expected of me. I called my library about "Queen Lucia" but they were closed. (It was Christmas Eve). I shall try again by tomorrow.

YAY YAY~~ Great! Putting up our Joan G and Betty right now. Essentially, we just mail them to each other, but with three moving, we should have no problem. Just don't rush thru them, take time to savor.

Ginny

I brought home 2 tapes with 3 episodes on each; they are sitting right in my Gahanna Library (which, Ginny, is a branch of the Columbus Metropolitan Library and we pay a portion of its budget from our property taxes, but don't mind at all as we certainly love it). Lucia is pronounced as though it were spelled Loo'chea, and she and the giraffes are in competition as to who can hold their heads higher, but she couldn't be eating anything at all as she is one slim body (love those clothes!!).

Ella: or as Georgie would say, "Loo CHA!" hahahah We really must have fun with this marvelous book, help me think how!

Ginny

Have been having a 'daydream"... thinking about the characters and which one I'd like to be...

Pat: good angle, maybe we should take parts, too! hahahahahah like the Benson List Serve does!

Ginny

These characters do linger in the mind. Oddly, they are so busy, for people who do nothing. If we could choose, I would like to be Olga. (I've always wanted to be Kim Basinger.)

We had Christmas dinner at my nephew's house and his live-in girlfriend and her mother. The mother and girlfriend are from L.A. and very different people - the mother has been in movies (was a girlfriend in The Odd Couple, remember that series?), soap operas and is now performing in one-woman shows which she writes, produces and acts. She is my age, but as slim as Lucia and I felt uncomfortable around her and her daughter and don't know why as they were very friendly. Too much so, at times. They seemed to be acting and "on" all the time, and in a way that is what Lucia in the episodes seems to be.

Ginny, don't have the book yet but it's on order at the Library. I'm sure it will make a lively discussion, if for no other reason than we can compare these characters to people we've met (as I did, rather boringly above).

Ella, that's fascinating tho! And there you are, a great beauty yourself. Little did they know they were facing the piercing Ella mind! You are such a hoot. So their demeanor made you feel they were acting out a part, so they weren't comfortable people to be around? Wonder if anybody else noticed it??

Jackie: Olga you are!! Do you sing?? I was never so shocked when touring La Scala last year to enter the room of all the past opera greats and to see the stuff on the great Diva Maria Callas and to hear the docent say, Of course you know she committed suicide! I didn't know that, is that true??

Ginny

Ella, Did the girlfriend in The Odd Couple play one of the Pigeon Sisters? I still remember those two, they were a scream.

Larry

Hi Larry: No, she played Jack Klugman's girlfriend - her character's name was Dr. Nancy Cunningham. She also played the female lead in "My World and Welcome to It" based on Thurber's characters; the show won an Emmy, but I don't remember that show at all. She would love to get a copy of any of those shows but they are all copyrighted and she cannot. My nephew told her that the Thurber House is here in Columbus, Ohio and often brings in poets and authors, so she might try to get in touch with them and arrange something. He said he would video it and maybe they would show a copy of that - try something anyway. All interesting.

Ginny: I love to sing. Unfortunately, my audience doesn't seem to share my enjoyment of my singing. Plus, I'm about 30 years too old. (I won't say how much overweight I am.) But thanks. Nicest thing that has happened to me all day!

hahahaha, what a group here! I REMEMBER Dr. Nancy Cunningham!!! Wow, rubbing shoulders with the acting world!

Larry has made a comment on the tapes and so I looked at them again and have discovered to my shock that they are hybrids!! They are not of good quality, now, and I do apologize for that, but you CAN make out the characters.

They are neither the American version nor the British version but an amalgam of both: kind of a truncated British version. There are 5 episodes on one tape as opposed to five full tapes in the British version so if you DO have a chance, and you like these well enough to go forward with it, you can always try your library or, better still, buy the originals, the price for the first set has dropped at Critic's Choice to $59, while the second set holds fast at $89.

Luciaphils around the world huddled for years at 2am to view these tapes thru snowy screens and horrid interference, so what you've got, while not perfect, certainly gives a feel for the characters.

I'm mailng out three today? Each one will have the address of the next person in line? There is no need to send them on Priority, we now have people in different areas of the country and so can easily get them delivered without the Priority.

Stephanie, Stephanie: I don't have your address!!! Do send asap, will mail you the fourth set of the British originals.

What a joy it was to pick up Lucia again last night. What a pleasure to read his cool liquid prose again. So glad you all are having the experience, too.

We must do this one uniquely!

Jackie, what fun!!!

Ginny

Ginny, responded to your email. Was off line for the past week. Just too much company, etc.

Ginny - you remember her? Gosh, what a memory you have. I thought that show was very funny and wonder if someone will adapt it to modern day and do it over.

The quality of the tapes I have are excellent, and am sorry I can't mail them out. They have the following on them: "Programs 1985 London Weekend Television Ltd." I've watched the Village Fete and Battle Stations and am going back to the Library today for 4 more. Lucia is winning the battle of wits as of now, but have a feeling Mapp will close the gap. Cannot say enough about these adorable clothes these women wear - the 1920's I presume? And those hats, I love them, and the English countryside, delightful!

Oh good! we're finally almost able to almost live our own lives again and get back to what we enjoy doing. Which in my case is this forum. I'm afraid I've been a dreadful grinch this year. my son, Chris, who is the lynchpin of our family, came with Flu so we didn't celebate Christmas until Sunday. He's fine now but I worried. Do mothers ever get over doing that, I wonder?

Ella, living in this area, there is no way to avoid meeting actors and I concluded long ago they are a breed apart. It's sad because they want to be like everybody else so they try too hard.

Would anyone object - I would love it if next to our names we listed what part of the country we each are living. I'd like to huminize these posts and haveing a picture if you are posting from the cold, the warm, the big city or elsewear to me would be so much fun. Nothing to do with our story just an added touch.

Carol - Where do you live? Barbara made a good point and we would like to know where everybody is from, so we may address that from time to time. Do you know how to put a 2nd line after your name? At least, the state would be helpful - have you met many actors and if so, whom?

Perhaps you are right, this actress was trying too hard, makes sense now that you gave me the idea. It must have been as tiring to her as it was to me listening! Interesting, that!

Ginny - a long time ago I said something about the 2nd line being directly under our names as it used to be and Larry said they were going to fix that soon. Gosh, that was almost a year ago, I think. It would make everything much neater don't you think? That's one of my New Year's resolultions - to make everything neater, particularly drawers - it was my last New Year's reolution and the year before that, also. Maybe someday!

Sure we can do that, all you have to do is look under Preferences at the very bottom of the screen, and you can adjust your Second Line. I'll go do that now to mine.

Another thing there in Preferences you might want to look at is your Time thing, let me go get the words just right.

Ginny

OK, here's how it is: First you hit Preferences, which is the bottom line of buttons, third from the left.

Then you look doe "Second Line of Information," and that's where you type in your location, if you like.

Then you may want to look for "Minutes of inactivity until automatic logout," especially if you get cut off a lot when trying to post?

Then you want to look for Set Preferences at the VERY bottom of the screen?

You'll hit that and then wait and go to the very bottom again and hit OK.

That should do it?

I DID, by the way, catch and tape the A Civil Action thing on Biography on A&E last night and it looks fabulous, thanks Megan!!

Ginny

Venice Beach on-the-beach, S. California My first reaction to the book is I need instructions on how to get to Riseholme. that bastion of CULTURE. I want to live there serene, untroubled by ordinary cares and worries about getting my prescrptions filled on time, trying to find items [constantly being hidden by malevolent clerks in the super- market, and minus the distractions of watching the evening news on television. I need to inhale the clean, clear air of---Well, you get the idea.

Ella---I live at Venice Beach So. California at the very edge of the Pacific Ocean. If you get any closer than I am, you'll be in the ocean and swim-- ming for your life. But I've lived and worked in the general area for most of my adult life. It's commonplace in Los Angeles and in New York to run into them. I was lucky enough when I was young to have access to some of the "Golden Age" gang. Most of them are dead now and, frankly, I can't tell one face from another these days. LOL, Carol

Ginny - your second line is NOT under your name. There is a space between your name and the 2nd line that was not there before. Perhaps because they have to put that "Mark Message" thingy in there, I don't know. Never have used that thingy anyway, but I'm sure there is a good purpose to it.

Carol - Having only been to California once in my life for a week, I truly have no knowledge of that very long state stretching up and down the coast. When we were there I always intended to go back and just drive up and down Highway 1, it was so delightful with all these small coves to look into and stop and admire, and little towns, etc. But you say the air is no longer pure? Well, of course, no air is, especially LA air from what we have heard - but, I would think the ocean breezes would be so nice.

Now, to the book, I agree with Carol these characters have a lovely easy life, free to be and do anything they want. No meals, dishes, housecleaning, all these drab things I have done all my life. But, on the other hand, they have no children to love, rather selfish in many ways, Lucia thinking only of what people will think of her (as in the first chapter she walks from the train to her home hoping the villagers will speculate why only her maid arrived). And their somewhat foolish attempts to speak Italian, why not just admit they cannot speak it, or am I supposed to be amused?

Loved the description of house (humor in furniture) and gardens - must go and look up "rue" - am not sure what it is.

Ginny, glad you caught the "Civil Action" show on A&E, Jan Schlictmann is a lot better looking than I pictured him and nicer too.

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!

It seems like Never-Never Land, especially when you realize that we are talking 1930 here. Didn't Risehome have a depression?

Weren't these people of Riseholme the landed gentry, having little cares except to keep within the budget. But there are also references to the market... price of oil and such.

That's a good question. Where Did their money come from anyway? To be landed gentry, didn't you have an estate or something?

And a Bright and Happy and Prosperous New Year to you All!!!

Well, here we ARE on our first day of 1999 in our first Book Club Online discussion of the year, in the perfect book to start out the new year, Queen Lucia .

I think it bodes well for our new year that we find the discussion in full swing and ROLLING before it even opened!! A good luck omen~

---

I must say that it's with a great deal of trepidation that I even BEGIN to try a discussion of EF Benson's Mapp & Lucia series, of which Queen Lucia is the first book, but have confidence in our SN BOOKIES to carry the day.

After all, as Jackie said, we have our own perspective here!

Apologia :

First let me say that as far as EF Benson goes, there appears to be a pendulum swinging with no middle ground: you either love him or hate him, you either find this series "delicious," or unworthy or worse. There are passionate erudite advocates on both sides.

But one thing is for sure: there has been SO MUCH research done on Fred Benson and especially these books, by the two Societies involved: literally thousands of pages of single spaced typewritten pages which take up every word, every phrase and reference, every facet of his personal life, that we are unlikely to be swayed by blanket pronouncements as to his character or intent. Benson's fame shot up immediately with these books, and they afforded him a Georgie- like existence with servants the whole of his adult life. Do see some of the clickables in the heading on his life or anything else or visit the websites of the two main societies which offer research and the "Tilling Newsletter" back to 1981.

Benson had many friends, some of whom are still living. Indeed, Charlie Tomlin, his manservant, died not so long ago, and was able to provide fascinating insights into his character and personality. Nobody knows a person like their servants, right?? (Just ask mine!)

I hope to get a member of the Tilling Society in here to answer some of our questions and would like to get up a list of those for that occasion. I believe I'll keep a list in the heading, so if we get one we simply can't figure out, we'll ask that person directly. Working on this...

The photo in the heading is courtesy of Betty Ward of Canada, a member of the Tilling Society, but, alas, not online. If you have not seen the videos, (and I hope you ARE on the list) Mallards (pronounced MallARDS) was the home of Lucia in Tilling, where she moves in Book IV. Tilling is the fictitious name of Rye, England, where Benson lived, and "Mallards" was his actual home, Lamb House, once owned by Henry James. He named it "Tilling" for the Tillingham River which will be appearing in future photos. "Riseholme" is based on Broadway in the Cotswolds of England.

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All this and more is in the clickables in the heading, qv.

So far we've raised several good questions: the character of Lucia, the childlessness of the main characters, and the financial status of same, given the time....the 30's.

How do the videos start out? They give a date, right at the beginning? Doesn't it say 1920? Would that be the Roaring Twenties? Somebody with the tapes, do look??

Now Jackie, Carol, and Pat have brought up the issue of the financial status of the characters, which obviously, to our American 1999 eyes, looks strange. On page 5, quite early on, we learn the source of Lucia's good station in life: "Before that, while her husband was amassing a fortune, comfortable in amount, and resectable in origin, at the bar, she had merely held up a small dim lanp of culture..."

That always gives me pause. I like the way Benson puts things, I like the way he uses words. Notice how he stipulates that the money Lucia lives on is a "fortune," but it was honorably gained. I think that is interesting in the wake of Rockefellers, etc. of the period. We do need to remember to multiply by at least 10, the amounts involved. So when Georgie is left 80,000 pounds later on, it's really 800,000 pounds or more in today's pounds (and multiply that by 1.5, is it, for dollars?, which is a heck of a lot of money. Of course, you know if you've seen the videos, (do get on the list) he doesn't collect.

I don't know how Georgie came by his money, do any of you see a reference? I think if we are unable to find out, that would make a great first question for our visiting expert.

As to characters, Ella's remark made me realize for the first time that NONE of the characters have children? NONE. The only child who appears, as far as I know, in the entire series, appears in Folkestone, when Georgie flees the Countess Faraglione, and writes a letter in Book IV or following.

Benson himself was unmarried and childless, which may account for some of this??

So the self-centered element has made its way into the story almost from page 1: "That would be an interesting thing for them;: it would cause one of those little thrills of pleasant excitement and conjectural exercise which supplied Riseholme with its emotional daily bread."

So right from the outset we can see that QUEEN Lucia is really queening it up over the town and that they accept it. I expect I personally could drop out of a balloon and not cause excitement in Pauline, so obviously there is something more at work here. In the days to come you may be surprised at Benson's own reasons for creating Miss Mapp.

The question IS: How do YOU react to this? Do you find her amusing or would you like to take her down a peg or two?

You remember in your Agatha Christie novels that the small town was a total breeding ground for intrigue and evil, and Christie always maintained you could see a prototype of any type of character in the smallest village in England.

We also have to be aware, and I wish somebody would help with looking this up, that England, for quite a long time and even today in places, did maintain a sort of "otherworldly" atmosphere regarding "servants," gardeners, and the like. Remember old Miss Marple? She always had maids? Cooks?? I think it's common, or certianly WAS (Upstairs, Downstairs??) but do need some help here. Certainly Rye, which was abandoned as a seaport when the waters receeded, has prized itself on it's insular nature, and, indeed, the inhabitants feel sorry for anyone who has not seen it. More later on that.

I'm working, with Larry's help, to get the heading even shorter than it presently is. I do hope you'll glance at it daily, I intend to post an illustration daily of the book's subjects, and hope to have quite a lot of material to look at.

The bottom line, however, is OUR response to the book, and how we see it. Do you think the characters are timely? Could they appear in YOUR town? Do you think they ARE appearing in certain elements of "Society" today?? Are you able to identify with ANY aspect of ANY of the characters?

Let's talk characters and characterization to start out, and let's not "miss out" one thing on backround, finances, etc., as Georgie would say.

YAY!!

Ginny

Ginny - an interesting post. Yes, characterization is the thing here, for sure. In the videos, you see Georgie embroidering and one might think that a very feminine thing for a man to do, but, as an aside, years ago when I was visiting in Maine, the male members of the family were knitting, primarily sweaters, along with the ladies and upon inquiry from me, the winters are long and dreary and the men did numerous crafts right along with the women.

Benson had no children? Perhaps that does account for the lack of children in the books, he may not have even thought of them, or felt incapable or something.

There are qualities in both Mapp and Lucia that I like or dislike. Mapp, it seems to me, is the more honest in some ways. One sequence in the film points this out - one of the ladies had a new hairdo and Lucia said it was lovely (wouldn't most of us do the same for a friend?), but Mapp didn't say a word about it and when asked, said she hadn't commented on it because she didn't like it. White lies or the naked truth? Which is best here? Which would I do?

Tom Wolfe gave a presentation on C-Span last night of his new book "A Man In Full" and I mention it because he could be Lucia's brother - they look so much alike - notice!

Another thing about the charaters. Benson seems to have an upper class background. But, Lucia's husband's money came from toil, not inheritance. I wondered if this was sly Benson making another point about the presumption of "Queen" Lucia. The Brits are still snobbish about the source of money, aren't they? Old vs. New. Family vs. Trade.

Happy New Year, everyone!!! How did we get to 1999 so soon? Seems like only yesterday, it was '98! January 1, and I have never read the earlier Benson novels, viewed the tapes, and have only just begun Queen Lucia! Talk about coming into a discussion cold!
I remember that I promised Ginny I would help her with hosting this one...back when I had some control over my time, back when I thought I was one of those "busy people who have time for everything."

But Ginny, you are doing a masterful job here, without any "help" from me, but with help from so many marvelous, interested, interesting posters! I want you to stop worrying about the Tilling Society and any others who have loved and examined the series - as we have our own sharp minds and unique approach which always proves quite satisfying as we share our impressions, experiences and opinions. Your background sites, insightful posts, and thought-provoking questions are right on target, and we all appreciate the time and effort you are putting into this venture!

I am going to be honest with you. I am not yet in the company of WH Auden, Noel Coward, etc. - a 'Luciaphile' - after reading Chapter One. I don't find La Lucia loveable, even likeable - or anyone I can relate to..oh yes of course, "one of those busy people who have time for everything. I used to relate to that! I admit I envy her leisure time, her Steinway Grand, Shakespearean garden, etc.
No, I don't know about the rue plants in the garden either. My American Heritage says only that this plant has leaves which "yield an acrid, volatile oil formerly used in medicine." I wonder which of Shakespeare's plays mentions this plant. Will check at the Folger tomorrow.

"Riseholme, where there was neither poverty or discontent..." Ten years ago an agricultural population, today a center of culture, due to Lucia's efforts. Did the first novel of the series deal with this transformation, I wonder?

This book has a copyright of 1920. Is that when the story is set? If so, Jackie, there is no financial depression in Europe or England at this time (except in Germany), but rather a flourishing post- war economy...
I don't know much about these characters yet, but many sons had been recently lost to war and there were many childless 40-somethings in England at the time. Combined with the author's own childlessness, this might account in part for the absence of young people in the series.
I understand that Lucia and Philip at 40, have never had a child. I really like him and his admiration and understanding of his wife's interests and abilities. Genuinely happy when his "Carissima" returns from London.

Plenty to like here, but I'm not yet a Lucia fan!
Look forward to catching up with the rest of you, if that's possible!!!

Well. 1920, eh? I sure am getting dingier as I get older. (Note the qualification.) After reading Queen Lucia, I stumbled across a reference to mediums, planquette, etc, which were fads after WWI, due to the large number of casualties. A book about a village, Finch, in rural England. Nancy Atherton is writing a series of mysteries, cozies, with a touch of fantasy. Perhaps now my eye will catch references to Benson's writings which I formerly missed. Ah, education.

I looked for the one reference to income that I could vaguely recall re income and found a vague refence to Mr. Lucas having "amassed a fortune at the bar." I take it that he was not a bartender so he must have been a barrister putting in an amazing amount of billable hours to "amass a fortune" so young. Mr. Quantrock works and takes the train to London to do so. As for Georgie, I don,t see how he could possibly work. Can you imagine him, say running the family business? Why, he'd be on the dole in no time. And yet I love Georgie. He is my absolute favorite of the whle crew, Don't know why.

Good grief, our Book Club Online strikes another blow for greatness with those posts!

Where to start?

Will start with Joan: so you think, do you ALL? that we can relax our anxiety a bit as far (read that: "I can relax") as background info? It's stress producing looking at these hundreds and hundreds of pages of text and knowing I can't possibly look up everything.

We'll have all the references just for our own pleasure and information then? And look up as we like? And not be bombarded with facts and info constantly??

I'd like to shed the mantle of know it all and just participate, there are a lot of things I don't know and want to.

Good, I feel better already!

Do any of you have any access to a photo or illustration of a Bath chair? I sort of skimmed over that one the first few times I read the book? And just recently somewhere saw a picture of one, knocked me off my feet? You know Mrs. Weston is in one? Thing looks like an old fashioned sleigh on wheels? I guess it's an early wheelchair? Would love to know more about Bath chairs.

Also what is this "Cut the moon," and "hail the moon" stuff? Boy, that Lucia really has the town in her thrall, doesn't she?

And yet, is that so far fetched? Do we KNOW a Lucia in our own midst??

Like Ella, I find things to like and dislike about Lucia and several of the characters. Lucia, of course, is a true Leo, in every sense of the word, has to be the "Queen," has to be the center of attention. Now if you're reading this and saying well squash YOU, I'm a Leo, I apologize! hahahhahah

If you've not seen the videos yet, I'd like for you to answer when you have, Ella's thought of Who is the most honest, Mapp or Lucia??

I do wish I had seen the C-Span on Tom Wolfe, I am enjoying his book A Man in Full very much. I'd have said he would be more of a Georgie, tho, with those clothes.

Joan: Queen Lucia IS the first book, and you're in line for the next mailing of tapes. Don't rush it and try to catch up, I know you are a speed reader, too. Just take your time and enjoy, it's an easy read. The tapes are on Books IV and following, and the introduction of an adversary, Miss Mapp.

If you are a Luciaphobe so far, you'll hate her on the tapes! hahahahahah I can't wait till you all finish the tapes, want to discuss them at length also.

Apparently, by the way, trivia, the correct pronunciation of "Irene" IS "Irenie," and I believe Miss Mapp is the only one who does it in the tapes.

Doesn't Ophelia say something about "here's rue for...." or something in Hamlet ?? Not sure.

Now Carol has brought up which of the characters we like best? And why? I like Georgie, too. He's sweet and sort of caught up in all the machinations, torn between stars in his orbit, a gentle soul. As Mitford said, perhaps today he'd be portrayed differently.

As far as I know, none of Benson's brothers or sister married, tho I may be wrong on the sister. They were all highly creative, nervous, and somewhat mad (the sister, A.C.) siblings. It was a worry for Fred, who tried to be a good brother, taking A.C. (also a writer) in to his household at one point. Hugh Benson, another brother, scandalized the family of the Church of England's Archbishop of Canturbury by becoming a Roman Catholic Priest, riveted by the occult, and a believer in ghosts, who had no intention of becoming a ghost himself. His instructions for his burial included a vault with steps closed by an iron door which could be unlocked from within, with a key placed in the lightly constructed coffin. The "vault should not be closed and sealed until a month after his death, just in case." He also left further instructions based on Hugh's understanding of the death of St. Cecilia. Fred made sure his brother's instructions were followed to the letter.

Since we're talking of graves, Benson's own gravestone is remarkable, in that his name is misspelled on it.

The grave is found in Rye Cemetery, Playden, No. 6223: "Here lies Edward Frederick (sic) Benson M.B.E., J.P., fifth child of Edward White Archbishop of Canterbury, and Mary Benson, who died on 29th February 1940 aged 72 years. Author, scholar and historian. Freeman of Rye. Three times Mayor of Rye. Fellow of Magdalene College, Cambridge."

A Memorial Tablet in Rye Parish Church on a choir stall where he usually sat, on the south side of the chancel, reads "In remembrance of Edward Frederic Benson who passed away on the 29th of February 1940. Servant of God- Brave sufferer, author, three times Mayor of Rye. Friend to this Church and Town."

The photo soon to be in the heading depicts the cemetery where Benson is buried and the annual procession of the laying of flowers on his grave by the Tilling Society, even in the rain.

Benson gave two church windows to St. Mary's Parish Church in Rye, and they are glorious stained glass, huge things and include him in tiny tiny aspect in the bottom right corner in his mayoral robes, his dog, and his manservant Charlie Tomlin, as a shepherd. Will get them up tomorrow in the heading.

I love trivia, and Benson's life was full of "delicious bits," of it, as he'd say.

I can relate to these characters, and their struggles for supremacy, and I don't know what that says about me or them! hahahaha

But our Jackie has electrified the night with TWO astute observations, one of which had never occurred to me: Peppino made his fortune in TRADE!! Of course!! Later in the series, we see Lucia, in one of the last books, totally frustrated when Queen Mary visits and insists, despite Lucia's wanting to manipulate the town HER way, on stopping at the home of a lowly stockbroker and, I think, a dentist: in TRADE!!!!

Nice point, Jackie~! I bet Benson was doing just that. Do we see a little malicious streak here or do we think it all in fun??

Another sterling point by Jackie ..

Jackie continued, was the part about the increase in interest in Ouija and Planchette after WWI. Now that is poignant, isn't it, and something I didn't know.

Which one of these characters do you LIKE the most and which one do you think most closely resembles YOU? Those are not necessarily the same answers!!

Back later, everybody chime in, there are NO right or wrong thoughts here!! Just fun!

Ginny

Somewhere - possibly in the foreward by Nancy Mitford - I read that the book takes place in the early '30's, will look that up and get back to you.

Now Georgie! In my mind, he is a poor excuse for a man and one that I probably wouldn't like at all, he is spineless and Lucia can bend him this way and that easily. I don't like wimpy men, even though I think it would be nice to have someone around me at times that would agree to everything I say or want to do.

Besides the question of what you would have said about the new hairdo of a friend, I have another question that has bugged me for years and here is, perhaps, where I can find the truth of the matter. CAN WOMEN AND MEN BE CLOSE FRIENDS? My husband and I differ greatly on the subject and I want other opinions. Can a woman and man (both happily married to others, we'll say) go out to dinner or an event together?

As to the question of telling the truth or white lies, I have thought a bit about that and think it depends upon the person. For example, I could tell my daughter or husband that I don't like that hairdo or that shirt he bought, but would hesitate at a friend who thinks it very becoming. What say you?

Welcome aboard, Joan! You don't have to like Lucia to enjoy the book or films.

 I'm a Leo, I apologize!  Me too... Is that why I identify with Lucia?  I did have one person call me a "young battle-ax'  and I guess she was right.  But my ways have mellowed and I no longer "herd", bamboozle or push the ladies around in Woman's Club or the PTA or the Missionary Society.

CAN WOMEN AND MEN BE CLOSE FRIENDS?  I say yes.  But then I have not had great opportunity for investigating this opportunity.  Since I live in a small town, where gossips abound, I would not dare be seen in public with a gentleman other than my husband, unless Charlie were also present.

No more answers... must go do some reading....... and look for a bath chair.. somewhere I have a picture of my great grandmother sitting in something like that.

Ella: Sounds as if you are asking if two adults, one male and one female, can relate to one another without that old devil sex coming between them. I have had deep friendships with two men; we were each single. We admired one another, loved one another, could have remarkably candid conversations. We shared the kind of intimacy which two close friends who are women can have. I think that some men need this intimacy from women because they cannot open up to their sexual partners this way, and few men can be intimate with one another the same way.

I like Georgie. He was the most human of these characters, and his small vixctories over the Queen's bullying gave me vicarious enjoyment. How many of us have had these "Queen" or "Princess" characters in our lives and did not dare to challenge their rightousness? (Is that the word?) As a rule they have little humor, never see themselves as being capable of a mis-step, and are insufferable prigs. Yet they charm us and we continue to be held in thrall. Georgie is no wimp, but he clearly is not the man that Lucia is, in spite of her simpering. Ah, Ella, this is what horse racing is all about.

E F Benson did not write about sex or children as they were 'messy' or some such. But his observance of people was pretty sharp, wasn't it? Somehow I'm not sure you are supposed to 'like' Lucia, just be interested in her shenanigans. Without her in the little town, society would have been quite dull! When I read this series some years ago, I was for Mapp. Now I see her as rather awkward and obvious -- yet she will prove to vie with Lucia for popularity. Lucia is charismatically devious, gets caught in her own lies or plots sometimes, yet gets out of it with aplomb.

This small microcosm of society is interested in music, art, literature, gardening, cooking, bridge... Even on a quiet morning, you wonder what will come up next. How Benson must have enjoyed these people!

Wow! A bombardment of questions. Ummm-I'm on Olga's side. She IS cruel to Lucia especially when she has her and "Peppino" to dinner with the guest who REALLY speaks Italian but, in my book, {no pun intended] no one ever deserved it more than that silly Lucia. Although I had to admire L. when she weakly rallied with something like, "Oh, he spoke that dreadful dialect which is hardly ever used". I paraphrase. Still, I thought the scene hilarious.I am a Luciaphile. She's deadfulbut somehow it doesn't matter to me. I even empathize a bit when she is brought low by her own stupidity. Boy, would I like to have some of that unconditional love she gets from her husband!

Ginny, Just got the tapes and have watched the first hour and a half. Bit hard to understand the accents at times. Lucia has a silly twittering type of english accent which makes it a bit weird. Oh,,, Must confess at watching, that the person playing Lucia strikes me as not old enough. And I thought that Mapp had black hair and eyes.. My favorite character, although she is not always around. Foljambe.. She knows exactly how to get what she wants from Georgie, who assumes he is her master, but I do wondor. Lucia on tape is more manipulative than in the books somehow.. Cant quite figure why. By the way.. address is: Winter Park, Florida, so I like hearing about the storms, but not actually being cold.

I read "Queen Lucia" about a month ago and will have to refresh my memory of the events. I do remember liking Olga, and did not think she was being deliberately mean to Lucia, or, if so, tried to make things "right".

As to the question of men friends, I think it would be easy to be friends with Georgie, a charming and harmless male.

Mention of Nancy Mitford recalls a double book I read recently,"The Pursuit of Love" and "Love in a Cold Climate". The same sort of book nailing the 'country gentry" folk that truly live in a world all their own.

Eileen Megan

Yessss!!! Stephanie has the tapes! That means it won't be too long before they reach Arlington! Hopefully I will have completed Queen Lucia before they arrive and will know the characters. Have read the first three chapters so far. Am not a Luciaphile, but think it would be too much to call me a Luciaphobe. Just couldn't stand living in her little kingdom, no matter how lovely...imagine having to inform her of every house guest...! I did find it interesting to see both Daisy and Lucia's beloved Georgie toying with the idea of insurrection. Am beginning to feel more comfortable with this crowd!
I have had men friends, but upon reflection, they were all the sort without pronounced masculine traits, shall we say. I never went out alone in public with any of them, once married. One came to visit from another state a few times, and my husband was not at all happy with that, so it sort of ended early in the marriage. I think it is possible to have male friends...only with a certain sort of man...and even then, difficult with a husband who doesn't understand such a relationship.

Ginny!, I thought you were going to ask a totally different question when you asked:

"...the characters in the Lucia books are based on real people, snippets of real events, art imitating life. Almost every single thing that happens in the series, really happened, and Benson just elaborated on some of the events and wove the diaries and lists he kept into a pastiche. The question for me is why?"

I thought you were going to ask if any of these 'real' people resemble people we know...and one of them reminded me of YOU. But then, that wasn't your question at all!

Why did Benson keep a notebook, or why did he weave them into a pastiche?
I imagine he kept a notebook because these were truly interesting people who did interesting things. I have a neighbor across the way, a bit like Lucia, though not quite! But the tales of her soirees are very amusing. I could write quite a piece, if not a novel about her. I bet Benson knew he had rich material on his hands. I have a question about him...if he knew all of these people, interacted with them and then wrote about them, did he include himself in his writings? Do we know which character? Again, I have only read through Chapter III. He wasn't Lucia's or Daisy's husband, as he never married. I don't believe he could have written of Georgie with such honest revelation if he was writing about himself...or could he?

By the way, Ella (Hi Ella!), I continue to puzzle over your Nancy Mitford source that sets this story in the 1930's, when it was copyrighted in the 20's...and feels like the 20's too. Where can I locate the Mitford information? I need to satisfy my curiosity!

This is so much fun, but I wish I had more time to read...and catch up with you all!

So... which one is Ginny? May I guess? ... But then you, Joan, have met her and probably know her better.

Men and women---friends? Joan nailed it, and with such delicacy too. Unfortunately, it seems to be the case. Nevertheless I am firm about loving Georgie. Reasons? He's so full of life. He is consumed with curiosity about every little thing.He would make a great friend, keeping things lively and intesting. He is sensitive and funny. I would love to think I'm like Olga but wishing won't make it so. She has her great talent, focus, a good mind. I don't understand why she deliberately stole Georgie from Lucia and then tried to make things right between those two. The book offers no explanation or else I missed it. I can't see anything of myself in any of these characters.

Since (as some of you already know), I'm not precisely either -phile or -phobe, I've hesitated to comment here. The book being available, I conscientiously reread Queen Lucia in October, and got the omnibus (incidentally, that's where a Mitford comment appears) just before Christmas and read it again. My reaction was comparable to what it might have been had I undertaken to watch three re-runs of the same episode of "I Love Lucy" - or in this case, "I Love Lucia."

The effect on me was an almost physical tendency to squirm with a combination of boredom and embarrassment. Those foolish, empty, self-serving people. The ridiculous personal vanity suggesting, in the British phrase, mutton dressed as lamb. The silly social climbing and backbiting and gossiping. That miserly cheese-paring over small matters offset by with a naive disregard of the true economic state of things. These lightweight narratives, chocolate-coated over a hard center of malice, are entertaining at first encounter, but I fear I have outstayed my welcome in Riseholme and Tilling.

Ginny asks somewhere whether we might consider the book "beneath us." I don't know of any book that I would consider beneath me unless I were sitting on it, because books in themselves have no social, moral, or intellectual standing. What I might ask myself is whether some selection is beneath what I think of as an appropriate level of quality, interest, or enduring value to warrant sustained discussion in this Online Book Club. That is entirely a matter of personal opinion.

Books are selected on the basis of member recommendation, and the book chosen has more votes for it than any other (and fewer votes against it), even if the numbers involved are often small. Though I've read every selection since joining some time ago,there are several I haven't been interested in discussing at length. I'm sure others feel the same way, of course not necessarily about the same books. Fortunately there are enough book choices, and enough interested book-loving members, to go around and keep the discussion active, and allow us all to take a little vacation from time to time.

Ros

WOW!!

Here I come, late as per usual, so sorry, lots of crises here to deal with yet all seems to be evening out, I hope, and I hope you all are having a good start to the year. Lately, our new years have started off badly, but sometimes end up well, one can only hope!

Now, such posts! Such thoughts. Where to start? Here I came with a bucket load of my own ponderous thoughts, only to be waylaid by yours.

Want to address yours first, then get the heading in some sort of order, it's a mess, do look in later and give me your opinion of it, am trying (some would say very trying) and WILL succeed. Will dump bucket later today or tomorrow.

OK!!

Ella said that Georgie was a "poor excuse for a man," and I found that interesting. Note that several of the other male characters later in the book found Georgie so, also. Colonel Weston, for instance, "haw hum," had only a passing tolerance for Georgie at best, and later on, in the tapes, Major Benjy positively loathes him. Yet look at these two men. Both military types, blustering, gruff. Have you noticed that the only normal man in the first book is Peppino, Philip Lucas, reduced to that silly moniker by Lucia, and who dies by Book IV? Interesting, I never noticed that contrast before. Mr. Wyse in Book IV, appears as a fop? Lots of bowing. Lots of pretty manerisms. Not a "manly man," either. The "Padre" loses a wife in the videos, and seems a shadow. Interesting. BTY, the part of the Padre in the film is played by the brother of the great Alister Sim, who played in the definitive version of "The Christmas Carol" on film. But I digress.

Can Men and Women be Friends? Ella asks? Hmmm. Perhaps in a more enlightened society than we have here or perhaps as Joan says later less MANLY men, but you know where a man and a woman can be friends? On the INTERNET! Yes! I just thought of that, too. What wonders this brings out. Was tyring to think of any men friends I might have, have only once in 32 years gone out to lunch with somebody else's husband, a mutual friend of my husband and we talked of his wife and my husband. And that's that.

Until the internet. I can truly say I value very much the what I consider to be true friendships I've made with both men and women here on SeniorNet. There's nothing unfaithful about it, it's of the mind, and a pure thing, besides, I always drag poor Winston (my husband) into everything anyway, despite his inclination to run away. So yes, I do think, in this new medium, it's not only possible, but true. And as Jackie later puts it, that ol devil sex is not involved.

Yet I do think Benson did the same thing here, way ahead of the Internet. Notice Peppino doesn't mind at all, he thinks Georgie "capital," and a cohort. Where on earth she got Peppino from Philip I have no clue, doesn't the ino ending demean and make smaller? Is that another Benson jab??

And as for white lies, they do say nobody on earth has been free of telling a lie, no matter how white or dark. Is that true?

Putting these all in the heading but it will probably take most of the day.

Will stop and post this and go on with Pat?

Blabby

And Ros and I were posting together, and so glad to see her and as usual she raises lots of points.

But in order,

Pat our Leo to choose a character in the book like MOI? Gasp. Gasp. I can't believe you are a Leo, do you see YOURSELF a Lucia? Would any of us admit to that?? hahahahahahaha

Oh we have Lucias right here on SeniorNet, my friends! hahahahahahah

Not Pat, tho.

I do hope you can find the Bath chair, they are spectacular looking. Wonder why they named it Bath, for the Spa? Roslyn, how about look that one up for us in the OED? Even those who abhor the book can still enjoy the discussion, and, as usual there is room for each and every opinion!

Jackie mentioned the old devil, sex, and I found that interesting too, as many people and critics see this series positively riddled with homoerotic influences? In fact, every year another self -styled expert comes forth with "evidence" against Benson himself....his manservant, how pretty was he, his young male friends, not to mention his old male friends and female friends, his music, his..... It seems the modern mind can't contemplate a bachelor without throwing in proclivities too.

Fortunately for Benson, he was lucky in that his best friend, Sir Steven Runciman, lived on after Benson for 50 more years, dying in 1990, and was able to personally quash any spurious rumors. Likewise Charlie Tomlin, the "pretty manservant" lived quite a long time, having married Benson's cook. Benson's maidservant, Ivy, I think, I'm too lazy to look it up, died in 1988.

ALL these people stoutly maintained through the basis of their intimate personal experience, that Benson, far from being any sort of active homosexual, was probably "virginal, and, in fact, seemed to have a 'fastidious dietaste for physical contacts....There was no basic malice in him, only a delight in the ridiculous..." Runciman.

Tomlin, the manservant, noted that "Benson was not homosexual, and the probability is that, even if more attracted to the company of men than women, didn't do anything about it, feeling it to be against his moral principles. He had platonic frienships with both sexes--"Tomlin.

So here we have a man who has an abhorrence of personal contact (I had to laugh out loud when Georgie rang the EMERGENCY bell which meant that Flojambe had to come no matter what she might be doing, and had only been rung [before the current Guru stealing crisis] when MIss Piggie or was it Miss Goosie, had intended on calling on Georgie alone)? hahahahahahahha

So we have a man whose personal bookplate was a Pierrot (a stock comic character of old French pantomime usually having a whitened face and wearing loose white clothes) with a pen quill in hand jumping over the world, writing about....(who said this earlier?) a Never-Never land. A place where almost everything is of the mind, an aging Peter Pan?

Then Jackie wrote that "few men can be intimate with one another the same way," and that, again, causes pause. Don't the psychiatrists make much of the differences between men and women? How women can chat but men have to be DOING?? That friendships among men involve DOING together? Hunting, fishing, whatever...doing?

OK, well Benson in his later years, despite having started out as something of an athlete (the ice skating champion thing just blew my mind in the heading) was crippled severly by arthritis, so his contacts were likely to be limited to books and the mind. What else could he do or should he have done?? We find, perhaps, a parallel of this today on the internet?

And Jackie's thought, "How many of us have had these "Queen" or "Princess" characters in our lives and did not dare to challenge their rightousness? (Is that the word?) As a rule they have little humor, never see themselves as being capable of a mis-step, and are insufferable prigs." Oh boy is that right on. So true.

And then this: (really Jackie, you are fabulous)," Georgie is no wimp, but he clearly is not the man that Lucia is, in spite of her simpering. "

hahahah Lucia the "man,"??????????? In her drive or???? How???? What defines a manly quality in 1999?

Love it.

Loma observed Benson's sharp observance of people, he seems to see right through the deeds of men. I am reminded of Truman Capote, who could always see through the toughest armor, but, who, alas, paid the price for that, in spades. I think Capote might make a fascinating subject for our Books someday.

I was also interested in Loma's thought that she used to be a Mapp fan but finds she has changed. Me, too. And I can't wait to talk with everyone over the tapes....will put every question here in the heading. Some time today.

Here's a great quote from Loma," Somehow I'm not sure you are supposed to 'like' Lucia..." and so I wonder, are we? And do we? I feel sorry for her later in the series, she does get caught out, more than once, and Olga is the one who does it. Olga does NOT play games and refuses to truckle and it makes you wonder why Benson introduced Lucia in the first place??

More in the next post!

Ginny

And again, I do apologize for getting so far behind, such long posts, just grab out one thing to post on, but you all have made worthy posts and I don't want to, as Georgie would say, "miss out a minute."

Carol notices that Olga deliberately put Lucia into the hands of Signor Cortese, and not once but twice. Now I've always seen Olga as innocent, but the twice makes me pause again....what do you all think of Olga? IS she guileless or does she do these things deliberately? Do we have TWO QUEENS here. It's interesting when the third QUEEN, Miss Mapp, enters the picture and all three come together.

I do agree on Peppino, had you not mentioned him I'd never have looked harder at his character. So dear and remembering of him to serve macaroni for lunch. Wonder what on earth that means?

Didn't you LOVE Benson's phrases on Lucia's return when Peppino, who was writing a poem on Loneliness, found that, on page 15, "Peppino remembered the quotation, which had occurred in a review of some work of that celebrated author, where Lucia had also seen it, and went back, with the force of contrast to aid him, to his prose poem of "Loneliness." hahahahahah Love it. So subtle.

Stephanie mentions the tapes, and here we'll soon get up in the heading your thoughts for our discussion, but please be thinking over her points: IS Lucia too young? What of the hair color of both actresses? What of the voice of Geraldine McEwan? Do you note any significant differences in the books or the tapes? Which is better, book or tape? All these and more will provide much grist for our mills as soon as we've all seen the tapes.

And so, Steph, you like Foljambe? You like her assured manner with the dog? I did find her admirable, there, determined. And also with the sisters, so unlike Georgie. Note their names, Ursy (the bear) and Hermie (somebody help, I don't know what Hermione depicts).....It was clear Georgie leaned on Foljambe, and probably couldn't have done without her. In fact, he was reluctant to move at all, fearing he'd lose her. I wish she had had a bigger part.

I thought of Foljambe yesterday when I put on my black coat and her brushing of his shoulders, I need a Foljambe.

The tapes will be fun to discuss! Who said this, " Lucia on tape is more manipulative than in the books somehow.." That's a good point, too. Want to talk over them all.

Megan comes in here off her sick bed, hope you are feeling much better today!!

And you see Georgie as charming and a harmless male. I've been thinking about that, and how shall we find a "harmless male?" Would you say Georgie with his enthusiasms and bibelots, is a bit childish? Like a grown up child? Eager and sort of pure?

I myself love Georgie and wish I had one. Imagine the fun. I sure don't see him as TALL do any of you?? TALL. And Benson says somewhere that, contrary to what might be expected, he was TALL. Now, what does that mean??

Joan has brought up Georgie, too, and several other interesting points, including the male/ female thing.

Could YOU stand to live in Lucia's town? What would YOU do? Would you have the little insurrections? I think Joan is right in that the series or our reaction to the series seems to tell something about ourselves.

Why did Benson keep a notebook? I don't know. Don't all writers? I know Agatha Christie did. Will try to look. Great question.

Did he include himself? Again, great question. I think he put himself in every character. For instance, Benson himself could not get out his front door many times for the passle of artists on his front step. You'll see that later in both Miss Mapp and Lucia.

Carol on Georgie: "He's so full of life. He is consumed with curiosity about every little thing.He would make a great friend, keeping things lively and intesting. He is sensitive and funny." Wouldn't he be marvelous? Do any of you HAVE a friend like him? Those seem to be feminine traits, don't they? Or do they??

But now, Carol, you don't see anything of yourself in any of the characters? I hate to admit it, but I can see myself in ALL of them! hahahhaah Maybe not the Padre, or Mrs. Wyse, or Quaint Irene, but they pretty much come later.

Notice I am not asking La Pearson who she thinks I resemble lest I find out.

hahahahah

Ginny

Well, I just found the book, so hope to catch up with the rest of you. I have seen some of the tapes, but would like to be put at the end of the list to be sent out.

Joan, I agree with you, Ginny is one of the characters in the book. I have read about as much as you have, and hope to finish it this weekend. School has started back and my time fills up fast. All I need is one extra day in the week. That is not asking for much.

I thought that Nancy Mitford in the foreword did a wonderful job of describing Lucia. She said, "she (Lucia) is the centre and driving force of her little world. As she is a profoundly irritating person, bossy, horrible energetic and pushing, the others groan beneath her yoke and occasionally try to shake it off: but in their heart of hearts they know that it is she who keeps them going and that life without her would be drab indeed." To me that is Lucia in a nutshell.

Sandy

And, finally, almost caught up:

Megan made the comparison of Mitford's own books, "books nailing the 'country gentry folk that truly live in a world all their own." I think that's a very astute observation. Now, Megan, where do you get the "nailing " part? What do you see as "nailing?" Good point.

Ros is, as usual, her forthright self, and I'm very glad of it, as we do need every veiwpoint and opinion here.

NOTE, New Members, she has faithfully read each and every selection!!! A role model to follow for us all!

Ros has made these statements--" foolish, empty, self-serving people" and "naive disregard of the true economic state of things," and "These lightweight narratives, chocolate-coated over a hard center of malice, are entertaining at first encounter..." which I think are all valid points to chew over.

ARE these foolish, empty, self serving people? How are they different from you and me? Now, Ros KNOWS I'm not arguing with her, just interested in chatting over these neat points, which, by the way, have been echoed down the years, by many....but there are corresponding contrasing opinions, too. We all are entitled to our opinions, and the nice thing about Ros is she's not afraid to chat over them. A model for us all.

Maybe Daisey, with her fads? But then, the Internet is my current fad? I'm a fad person, take and discard interests with the speed of light.

Not doing GOOD in the community? They will, later.

Now on the true economic state of things, I may have to slightly disagree. Remember how in some other book, we said, that we must NOT look at it with our own perspective nor the knowledge of today, but take it as written as a depiction of the times? Since Benson himself did live this life effortlessly, it's hard to fault the characters here, I think. But I am open to correction!

Now I thought THIS was brilliant, ""These lightweight narratives, chocolate-coated over a hard center of malice, are entertaining at first encounter..." Ah I love this Book Club...I love the perspectives raised here, I love the ideas.

Now, the isssue for me here is, Everybody, do you see any malice at all at work here?

Roslyn: will you also look up the derivation of "Pierrot?"

Now I think that's a mountain to chew over, so I'll just table my own thoughts till tomorrow till I can see your reactions to the above and also your new thoughts, and just say that the illustration soon to appear above in the heading is part of one of two glorious stained glass windows given by Benson to the Rye Parish Church:

"1937 West Window depicting the Nativity given by E.F. Benson in memory of his parents. EFB is shown in red mayoral robes at bottom righthand corner(almost out of the photo), and the Benson arms at opposite corner. Charlie Tomlin, his manservant, is depicted as the shepherd with Taffy, the collie which belonged to Rose Edwards, the cook. Charlie and Rose later married. There is morning glory in the picture [Benson's favorite flower] and EFB had requested that the sky should be the colour of morning glory. Both the windows made by James Powell & Sons---" Tilling Society Newsletter , July 1985.

I hope these little bits of biographical information add to your enjoyment and appreciation of the book, and don't detract from it.

Ginny

SANDY!! Posting together!! Will save what I know are your interesting comments for tomorrow, fingers are pooped!!!

Ginny

Ginny - what a lot of material you have given us to muse over. I get to this box and find I cannot remember them all; I should have taken notes, of course. Joan and you, if I understand you correctly, believe that it is almost impossible to have a male friend that you could go out to dinner with or to a show in the evening. Was it Ros that disagreed or was it Jackie that had 2 male friends - without that old devil sex rearing up. This is very enlightening and I wonder if this is just in America - the old puritanism that still lingers. Would any of you care to comment on whether it would matter to you if your husband dined with another women?

Ginny - yes, the Internet does permit friendships between the sexes and that is an asset I believe. However, in olden days, perhaps correspondence served the same purpose? And in our postings are we not corresponding?

The silly, malicious ladies and gentlemen of the times discussed did, of course, serve some purpose. They contributed greatly to the community in which they lived in many different ways. They gave monetarily of their fortunes to enhance the community and provided employment to the poor; not to mention a great source of gossip. And think of all the books that have been written ABOUT and BY those same people.

On a corner where I live there is a perfect "Mapp" - and I can speak freely of my neighbors because none of them own computers and think of this as a great waste of time, although they spend many hours watching TV, which apparently is not! In my neighborhood, which consists of 2 streets (we are deadended), there are many retired people as we all seem to have settled here together in the late '50's and 60's and are just now starting to die off and a few young ones moving in. Also there are traits in my neighbors that appear in Benson's characters and I smile when I read!

As much as I would like a Georgie around to listen to my every word, and think me charming, I should soon tire of him and want him out of my way. However, Lucia needs him - he feeds her ego I believe and I was quite surprised at the tape I saw today (but will not give it away to those who have not seen them all).

I am FINALLY home! Flight scheduled for Saturday cancelled (Atlanta closed - I was re-routed through Cincinatti which closed as they wrote the ticket) Sunday, Greenville SC closed and to add to the drama/misery my daughter's home was one of thousands without electricity. Spent the night with her family in a motel and finally out today.

With all this you would think I would have the book completed but, only up to page 99.

Such a tempest in a teapot - till I thought - Today we "think" we have enterprise but, Do we?

This reminds me of the real estate offices I have been associated with. And I bet not much different then most group efforts towards raising dollars. We have the competent basically agressive agent, dressed to the nines sailing through the office and because of her huge success can call the shots, other wanna bees that think she is riding too high in her saddle and get competitive with her instead of going for their own success and there is always a "George" around, gay or not certainly affeminitive. Real Estate Agents do a job of Sales, Marketing and Promotion as well as canvasing for business. Knowing who is doing what in town is all part of the game/job. Keeping up with the latest trends to be able to have small talk with clients as well as recognizing and visualizing with clients all manner of home decor and of course working with either a big name or high dollar client is the talk of any office. Prier to a prospect "going on paper" there is always the risk of how much to say since another agent could make contact and possibly work with the prospect therefore, you wouldn't get paid for your work.

I have howled laughing (airport travelers turning and looking at this crazy lady laughing aloud, especially wrong in light of all the termoil caused by, cancelled flights and exhausted travelers) as some of the characterizations ring true and I can replace local agents ith some of the antics.

George may have his hairpiece but, how many today have Boobs implanted, face lifts, tummy tucks etc. How many have eaten seeds, seaweed and sharks cartilage in the name of health. And how many with 'new money' build the million dollar house with a tip of the hat to the past yet, trying to match the style of Bill Gates or Michael Dell.

I bet some of these same shinaniggins could be found in the competition between corperations or collages. What school has snagged what chaired professor or speaker for the students. The latest design or asset is perfected in secret, muffled within the institution.

Gossip abounds today, it is just called the 'grape vine'. And if President Johnson as a new congressman could take 3 showers a day just to meet other senators and congressmen then that says to me if we look hard we can all identify the 'green' where 'accidental' opportunities to chat and influence take place.

What makes all this seem so silly is, we are talking of those playing the power game without commerce or, developing and affecting the social welfare of the community. This was the only game in town during peace time to most woman. And for that my heart aches for Lucia, Daisy as well as, their husbands all cought in the web society supported, baby talking self-indulging woman trying to imitate the 'idle' rich.

Me thinks there is more to Queen Lucia then meets the glancing eye.

Hi and Happy New Year to all! Been offline for a while, what with all the holiday company and activity.

I must admit I came to Queen Lucia with some reluctance, as my typical reading leans toward meatier, more "serious" fiction. (Hear sound of clapping self on back!) It required several days to get through the first 50 pages. Most of Ros's comments would apply to my reaction as well. "Those foolish, empty, self-serving people. The ridiculous personal vanity suggesting, in the British phrase, mutton dressed as lamb. The silly social climbing and backbiting and gossiping. That miserly cheese-paring over small matters offset by with a naive disregard of the true economic state of things. These lightweight narratives, chocolate-coated over a hard center of malice....Insufferable prigs" I kept wanting to shout "Get a job! Do something useful!" The fake Italian, the baby talk, the silly tableaux made me think of Dorothy Parker's wonderful comment, "Tonstant weader fwowed up."

Then gradually I began to warm to some of the characters. Cardboard charicatures, slowly over the course of the novel, are given at least a semblance of believability and humanity.

Certainly my favorite character is Olga, and the only one I would ever admit to identifying with. (Not that I can sing a note, but wish I were wealthy enough to remodel a fine home in the country!) Olga's malicious attack on Lucia with the Italian professor was startlingly mean but also delicious and much deserved. By the last quarter I was caught, and I loved the ending. Still not exactly a "phile", but closer than before.

I had deliberately not signed up for the tapes before reading the book. But now guess I'd like to see them, so please put me on the list. BTW, you research types, is Foljambe African? The name sounds so.

What a great group of postings that have been offered to date on Queen Lucia. I have read the book and viewed the tapes. In thinking about the character that I liked best in the book, I guess it is Lucia. While being shallow and self-centered, she knows what she wants and works until she succeeds in getting it. While I can't relate to the social scene depicted (doesn't fit my farmboy upbringing) I would expect this type of lifestyle was not unusual for the times in England.

While I didn't dislike Georgie as such, don't think I would ever consider him much of a friend. I am certain that Lucia's husband didn't mind him being around because he recognized that Georgie was no threat to his marriage, he helped occupy Lucia (which was probably a relief to him) and since they were neighbors he probably just accepted him as he was.

I really don't think that many men or women can have close friends of the opposite sex, particularly when married. I agree with Ginny that the Internet does help break down the barriers that may prevent personal face-to-face friendships. While I have always considered that I had casual friendships with women co-workers and other females that I know, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable going out to lunch with them outside of a group social setting. I well remember my first business trips with a female co-worker and how strange that seemed. While there was no problem with the travel or sharing the meals I just never became comfortable in the situation, although I realized it was essential that the travel be performed and was happy to see women have the chance to work on equal footing with men.

Larry

As for Georgie, through the first half of the book I thought Benson was merely writing a caricature of a closeted homosexual. But of course, Georgie's charcter becomes more complicated as the book progresses. His only threat to Peppino is that he might betray Lucia, thereby igniting her ire and making Peppino's life miserable!

I have had several rather close (nonsexual) friendships with men during my 39-year marriage. That's largely the result of my working in a field historically dominated by men. During college, grad school and the early career years, much work was done in the field, so one is thrown together with one's colleagues 24 hours a day. There's nothing like seeing the guys in their pj's dribbling toothpaste into the campfire to take the sexual tension out of the situation! Also, because I entered grad school and the professional world after my children were in school, I was always a decade or more older than most of my colleagues. That, too, makes for a more relaxed relationship.

Well finally caught up with the posts in here. Just received the book ,from Barnes and Noble order, yesterday. Wish I had aready read this one. haqve read other Lucia books though.

Have had a crisis here that is slowing me up in everything that I do. have posted about it in other places on SeniorNet but don't feel like going into it here. Maybe it isn't the crisis that is slowing me up ;maybe it is that I am getting old and can't keep up anymore. Heaven forbid that . I never intend to be old. Anyway, I hope to catch up on the reading.

Ros, I have to say that I can see where you might feel the way you do about this book. However I am such a student of human nature and of history that I am always intrigued by a book about English Society in the past. I keep trying to figure out how English society ever got that way. Does this make sense? I doubt it.

I must shutup and read the book.

Joan

The discussions about having a man friend seem so true! Even if the husband could understand it, the family - neighbors - co-workers - would not. Georgie would have been good for a friend, without any romantic interest. Had never thought of it before.

We live in such a different age that it may be hard for some to fully understand this social microcosm. Entertainment was what you made it, and Lucia was certainly a good organizer. People were most always curious about what the others were doing -- we still have a neighbor who can tell you. Radios will not come till a later book. Transportation was generally by train and even that was not undertaken lightly; it cost money. They even figured the value of their home gardens in their living expenses.

Even now, I think some workers in smallish offices are the same way they were, keeping eyes, ears, thoughts and awareness, ever on the alert.

All the characters in this book seem to have been encountered somewhere in my life. I have seen real Lucias - in the family, a church group, an organization, and at work. And one of them had a Peppino and a Georgie! These men must be adequate in looks and society, appear manly enough, seem to stand on their own two feet, but be able to be controlled by the Lucia, ever so charmingly and easily but still determinedly. I had never thought of that before. If it sounds like malice, it really isn't; just observation.

Didn't most writers in earlier days keep journals and lots of notes? As did travelers, or artists? Something to refer to for knowledge or inspiration? To me the author seems to have enjoyed all the characters and their individuality that made everyday living interesting. Living at Mallards he must have been very close to it all.

First---If I disappear for a few days, [some may say "Oh, good!], It will be because my cable remote is near death and I have to await the appearance of a new one in the mail. The cable box has my web linked to it. Am working it by hand but---?

I can't STAND Lucia! As has been mentioned by others, She is totally without humor, self absorbed to a fault, vapid, stupid, ignorant, pretentious, and petty and malicious. And yet I definitely AM A Lucieaphile! Mainly, I think because I enjoythe people around her when she is thwarted by one or another. Look what Lucia did to poor Daisy Quantrock who is supposed a friend. She lured her Guru right out of Daisy's house and into her own.Not nice.

I agree that the "meetings of parliament" each morning on the village green are typical of small towns even today. For many years in our town they took place at the Dairy Queen. And certainly in that day the "news" would have been mainly local.

It's hard to imagine why Lucia's neighbors forgave so easily her manipulation, even when it became malicious. But as Loma says, Lucia was providing most of the village entertainment. Guess she had "redeeming social value" that outweighed her negatives.

Also hard to understand their gullibility. Hmmmm. But then I recall all the charlatans that operate successfully today....

What do you think of E. F. Benson's bookplate that is up in the heading? Obviously it had meaning to him. The figure is spanning the globe? Bringing enlightenment? The globe is the eastern hemisphere, showing England and much that was familiar to them, including Australia. The figure has a quill pen. Denoting the importance of the written word? The collar looks a bit like an artist's palette. Indicating an interest in art? But what is the clothing? The big buttons seem like a clown's, or a jestor's. If so, is it to show we need levity in this world? Interesting.

The Pierrot figure in Benson's bookplate appears to be the classic rascally French pantomime character identifiable by the loose all-white costume with big buttons, the neck-ruff, the cap, and usually a white mask or white face-paint like Marcel Marceau. Pierrot (simply a diminutive of Pierre or Peter) was a clownish figure, disguised by his costume, who traditionally acted out immoral behavior. (We also know the Pierrot of the song "Claire de Lune," whose friend beseeched him to open the door "for the love of God." Pierrot was abed and couldn't admit his friend on that cold moonlit night, but told him to go next door to the neighbor lady, where he begged her to open to him instead "for the god of love.") So what is your interpretation? Was Benson disguised as a clown, performing immoral deeds in disguise and laughing at the world as he leaped over it like nimble Jack?

Ros

Barbara, your question about Foljambe's ethnic origins set me to look for the name via Alta Vista, which has extensive genealogical information. Foljambe is an authentic Norman-English surname, and records of titled Foljambes go back to at least the 13th century, so we might infer that the earliest Foljambes came over with William the Conqueror. My attempt at folk-etymology suggested fol(le) jambe or "foolish leg," possibly alluding to a limp ... or possibly not at all. In any case, Benson's irony here would be giving Georgie's maidservant a family name of distinguished ancient nobility, to whom she might well have been connected, and placing her among these parvenus and upstarts and, as Ginny has suggested, people in ... TRADE.

Ros

Oh such a lovely discussion. I am done with the tapes. Had tracking problems, so will try to see if our local library has copies. I grew up in a teeny tiny town close to a slightly larger community. Before the advent of cheap long distance and tTV, etc. people were very dependent on entertaining themselves. Lucia would have made a splendid career person, but the era did not suport females doing this. As crazy as she drives me, I think I understand the drive that makes her dominate her surroundings. She had nothing else. No children, no household duties.. Just endless hours of time. What is we had that. how would we fill it.

Perhaps Benson gave Foljambe great dignity. For the working class, I think many had full and satisfying lives working in a 'big house'. And surely they were as curious about the idle class as any, just were more quiet about it.

Could there be another shade of meaning of the bookplate clown or Pierrot? Benson does not seem at all interested in immorality. And isn't that a large quill pen he is holding aloft? Considering all Benson's characters' conversations, is it not hard to imagine a mime being in the picture?

Though the word malicious is used, Lucia does not seem to have had true malice against anyone, or held a grudge. It was just that she HAD to be the leader. Come to think of it, I've pretty well known two Lucias at work, and others elsewhere.

What a beautiful home! I'd love to wander around all those rooms - 5 chimneys I see, and is the entrance to the right, rather hard to see. In the films, the house doesn't look at all like this, but will wait till everybody sees them before comment.

Larry - Do you think this generation, perhaps, will find it less awkward traveling, eating, staying at the same hotels with the opposite sex now that women are more at the management level? In our generation I can understand your discomfort - my husband would have felt the same and other men I know also.

I agree that not many men would like Georgie - too effeminate? Why do you think Lucia and Georgie got on so well together?

I've played duets on the piano and they are more fun, so can understand Lucia/Georgie loving them, although I would usually start laughing and I'm helpless then. I have to count the time OUT LOUD - it just doesn't work counting to myself!

Those of you who have been to England - are there many lovely "cottages" such as this one in the country? How old do you imagine this house to be?

Ginny - I forget. Is this Benson's home?

WOW! What a joy to come in here to my favorite discussion anywhere and to see so MANY participants and so MANY good thoughts, it's almost stunning.

Now, posts 105 and 106, Loma and Ella were posted while I was (it took me forever) so will address them tomorrow.

Except to say, Ella, that Broadway in the photo is the real location of the fictional town that Lucia lives in throughout the book Queen Lucia . When she moves, in Book IV, to "Tilling on Sea," she then moves to the real Rye and Benson's real house, ("Mallards") which was named Lamb House in real life. I'll put a photo of Benson's house up next, was worried that there weren't enough of the Queen Lucia book.

---

You know how some people say, "Oh I always look at that folder first?" I always look here last. I want time to savor all the great thoughts I know will be here and to settle back and really enjoy each one.

Jeepers, Ella was right, I took notes this time. Still working on the heading, stay tuned.

By the way, while I'm on the subject, I thought that photo in the heading of Broadway in the Cotswolds was gorgeous? You can SEE looking at it how Lucia could have knocked three houses together and made one old looking thing. It's called Broad Way because of the wide main street and is supposed to be the most beautiful town in England. I've not been there, have any of you? And what is it like??

Ella asked if we would mind if our husbands, or in Larry's case (poor Larry is definitely outnumbered here, but he can hold his own!) his wife would go out to dinner with another person of the opposite sex.

Yes, Ma'am, I sure would for my part. Very much. A business lunch is one thing, as Larry has pointed out they are unavoidable, but a personal lunch? Would bother me, I am sorry to say, perhaps I am a bit unenlightened that way. Yes, it would.

Sandy's Mitford quote adds some dimentions to Lucia I hadn't seen, " As she is a profoundly irritating person, bossy, horrible energetic and pushing, the others groan beneath her yoke and occasionally try to shake it off: but in their heart of hearts they know that it is she who keeps them going and that life without her would be drab indeed."

Bossy, horrible, irritating and pushing?

Interesting. Horrible I don't think I would have applied to her, pushy, yes, bossy yes, irritating, yes, she is that, but horrible?

That's two people now who have mentioned Lucia's more negative characteristics, and I'd like for us all to address Jackie's first question above from our own perspective:

If YOU had to move, either in your social circle or family circle or church circle or community circle (you to choose) in the orbit of Lucia, WHAT would be your reaction to her and what do you suppose that shows about YOU as a person?

I personally couldn't stand it. Really. Would probably sulk a lot! hahahah or plot revenge. Don't want to be led by the nose by anybody.

Now Ella found traits of Benson's characters in her neighbors and Barbara laughed out loud in the airport (how I love that image!!)

So our new second question for consideration is:

Do you see any of the traits of Benson's characters in anyone you know? In other words, is the characterization timeless?

To me, the characters are as real as if they WERE real, I know them all. They are not stock paper dolls, except maybe for the incidental characters, it's true they are not well developed, but some of them, like Coplen and the stone mason later on are very colorful.

Barbara!!! How wonderful to see you here and I can just SEE you laughing in the airport at the similarities between the characters and real estate agents you know! That's the quote of the week!!!

MICHAEL Dell??? MICHAEL? I didn't know Dell was named for anybody, what a goose I am. Who is Gateway named for?

Now Barbara has hit on a very shrewed analysis here: ", we are talking of those playing the power game without commerce or, developing and affecting the social welfare of the community. This was the only game in town during peace time to most woman. And for that my heart aches for Lucia, Daisy as well as, their husbands all cought in the web society supported, baby talking self-indulging woman trying to imitate the 'idle' rich. "

That was fascinating. We forget that Lucia and Peppino and Georgie are NOT the highest class, the idle rich. To prove that, Benson not only introduces Lady Ambermere whom he skewers unmercifully, but also in the next book, Lucia takes ON the rich and famous, and nearly beats herself to death doing it. In that book, you, for some reason,....well, you'll have to read it yourself. And so, Barbara, you feel compassion for Lucia and the other women, because you see them trapped in the only life they can lead?

Now that's interesting, too. Do you all agree that Lucia and the others have no other "out?"

Marge!! Here you are at last!! hahahahaha loved the Dorothy Parker quote: "Tonstant weader fwowed up," but then she was another one, wasn't she, encased in cynical bitterness?

And at one point in the book when Lucia is disburdening herself of all her bitterness, you remember Georgie likened it to the other side of a negative showing up? Then Georgie thought, "The amount of malice, envy, and all uncharitableness which Lucia managed to put into this quite unrehearsed speech was positively amazing...Not till that moment had Georgie guessed at a tithe of all that Olga had felt so certain about, and a double emotion took hold of him. He was immensely sorry for Lucia, never having conjectured how she must have suffered before she attained so superb a sourness..." (Page 276).

I found it fascinating that Benson equated sourness and bitterness with "suffering," and I think Benson there, and it's only my opinion, was telling something of his own motivations, if you will, giving us a brief glimpse into what some of his "cat chewing tact" origins were. If you think about it, it takes a LOT of pent up anger and frustration to be as wittily sarcastic as a Dorothy Parker OR an E.F. Benson.?????

Do you agree or disagree? Is there malice here? Just a little? I have some personal quotes of Benson which totally deny this image, so I want to throw it out first here for contrast.

Ros, as usual is very astute: the Foljambe reference, (thank you for looking it up, Ros) is mentioned twice in the old Tilling Society Newsletters: In the February 1992 letter, they state, "The servants in Benson's fiction mostly had aristocratic names (de Vere, for instance, is or was the family name of the Earls of Oxford.) Foljambe was part of the family name of the Manvers family who lived at Thoresby Hall. Foljambe is pronounced "Full-jum." A page here is lost and the story is also mentioned in the winter 1987 issue: "Percy Lubbock's Diary of A.C. (Arthur--brother of E.F.) Benson in an entry for May, 9the, 1904, 'In the evening we dined with Warre....after dinner....we came back to the drawing-room. Mrs. Foljame played some sweet little soft tunes...Norwegian.'" So it's obvious the name was known to Benson and it was an aristocratic name.

I thought Larry's comments interesting, even though he admits Lucia to be self centered and shallow, he still admires her drive, " While being shallow and self-centered, she knows what she wants and works until she succeeds in getting it."

Lucia may be a litmus test for us all yet, in this case I see Larry as being a positive thinking person not hung up on little things. But, Larry, if you had to LIVE with her, suppose YOUR Pat were Lucia, how would you manage?

Also that's a good point too: which character do you like best in the book? And why?

Who talked about seeing men dribbling toothpaste over the campfire? I laughed out loud at that one. Bloom not on that rose, eh? hahahahahah

Joan G!! I have heard you've had plumbing problems, like our Helen! No wonder you don't want to mention it! I hope everything will soon be righted, not a very good start to the New Year.

Like you, I am fascinated by English society. I enjoy books such as the Lucia series, as they give, like "Upstairs, Downstairs," a glimpse into a time and place which are unfamiliar. Yet I find more to identify here with than not.

Loma: A very good point and one I saw Charlotte echoing in the Great Books: they had NO TV's or other forms of entertainment, and your mention of radio made me remember Lucia's reaction to it!! Oh she couldn't stand THAT, people might not want to hear her take the First Movememt of the "Moonlight Sonata!"hahahahahahh Good points, all.

Carol! Don't you dare disappear! You have provided us with the answer to what has always been for me a puzzling thing: how can a "Luciaphil" as styled by Benson himself in the London books, hate her at the same time?

Your post says it all: "I can't STAND her... vapid, stupid, ignorant, pretentious, and petty and malicious. And yet I definitely AM A Luciaphile! Mainly, I think because I enjoy the people around her when she is thwarted by one or another." So are we saying you enjoy seeing her get her commuppance? Why do you call her "ignorant?" I thought she held up the lamp of culture? Litmus test, litmus test? hahahahahahhaa

Marge mentions the "morning parliaments" on the village greens. I can speak from personal experience that these still remain. Will never forget in the 80's sitting in a square waiting for the bank to open, we were the CENTER of attention, the entire town, it seemed, circled and watched. It was kind of off putting, actually. Very small town.

Loma , I had never noticed that it was England and the Eastern Hemisphere in the Book Plate. That was made for him by George, I think, Plank, a younger friend whom Benson addressed in letters as "Plankino." Sound familiar?

Ros thanks for the info on the Pierrot. So what DO we think it means? So let's add that one, too, to the heading. Does the Bookplate say anything about Benson to us?

Now, the Lucases are not in TRADE. Neither is Georgie... but Daisey's Robert is iffy. They are not the aristocracy, even though Georgie was a Bartlett on his mother's side, but later in the books Miss Mapp thinks SHE is, to hilarious result. Poor Lucia, just writing this I feel for her, just by birth in England she's doomed never to be the "top," so she's determined to rise there. Larry may be right about her after all.

Steph, could you see them at all? Am worried now, who did you mail them on to? I thought you had a great point: if we were in the same situation with no more amusements than the folks at Riseholme, how would WE fill the time? Putting that one up in the heading, too.

So many new thoughts, will take down some of the old questions and put up the new. I do believe this is one of the best attended discussions we've ever had, and can't wait to get back in here tomorrow and see your thoughts on the new questions or any other aspect of the story.

Ginny

Ella, I am sure the working environment involving men and women traveling on business together is different than it was 20 years ago. However, even before I retired I became very concerned about the overall environment in the workplace where all men are immediately considered guilty of misconduct should there ever be an allegation of any misconduct. As a supervisor I would never close an office door without a third person in the room if speaking with a female. Unfortunately the pendulum seems to have to swing to the extremes before we reach a sensible situation. There are some really difficult situations in the workplace for both men and women (and I am not trying to minimize the true problems).

Larry

Ella, I think "Mr. Lucia" (like any of the other Riseholme/Tilling males) and Georgie could have been friends to the extent that Peppino was not concerned about any threat to his own masculinity implied by his intimacy with a Georgie. That's usually the determining factor for comfortable relations between "straight" and gay men. Women often enjoy sustaining friendships with gay men precisely because there is no threat of unwanted sexual overtures; any "flirtation" is purely conversation, and they can establish an emotional bond at a different level. Let us, of course, beware of stereotypes. Not every man who hooks rugs or paints china is gay, and the reverse is true of stalwart athletes and body-builders as well.

It's important, by the way, to keep in mind, as we muse about these characters, that (first of all) overt homosexual acts were considered criminal in England for many years, so that people learned to tread carefully in public and to read between the lines; second, that Benson sedulously avoided any mention of sexual behavior of any kind, so we can only observe and guess; and finally, there has always been a broad distinction between inclinations and behavior.

Larry, I salute your sensitivity to this enormous "gray area" in gender relations in the workplace. Having to think twice before speaking, and three times before putting an encouraging hand on someone's shoulder, must have made each day a little more difficult. This would be especially true for people whose whole social training emphasized positive words and positive gestures.

My working life began at a time when pats and pinches were the least that could be expected (or feared), and as a naive teen-ager who needed to keep a job I had some experiences I'd rather forget. As the years passed I felt more secure, partly because men were peers more often than supervisors; but in my last working year, when I was unmistakably a senior citizen, I encountered a boorish boss who kept his hands off but let his tongue run free. I think that was more offensive to me than any of the pats and pinches of earlier years - perhaps because by then I saw the whole game as having different rules.

Ginny, how deeply do you really want to go into the symbolism of the images in Benson's bookplate: the loose-fitting, body-concealing disguise, the erect plume, the palette that replaces a ruche around the neck, etc.? The responses should be interesting.

Ros

Believe it or Rip-notley, I have just finished reading every post, all 109!!! And last night, I finished reading Queen Lucia. So here I am, a bit floored but utterly delighted with the depth of interest in this book--a rather dated masterpiece of sorts, but beautifully written and, yes, I think timeless in its portrayal--skewering--of certain types we all have known onewhere or another.

Ginny, kudos for all your efforts, remarks, and research--a wonderful discussion!! And to all who are participating, more kudos--sooooo fun and interesting!

On the bookplate, I see the Pierrot figure holding his quill like a sword? Which the pen is mightier than... Or IS it a sword? The whole is a picture that speaks volumes about Benson's self image, I would say.

Oh, and Ginny--Gateway was named, I presume, by one Bill Gates?

I would like so much to see one of the infamous tapes passing around the country but I'm going to wait. Too much opportunity to get lost in some sort of shuffle and besides, I don't have just all the time in the world these days! Most of you know we are moving... [7 days till M-day] And anyhow, maybe like Ella I'll find them at the new library[ies] to which I'll waste no time introducing myself! After 10 years of RCPL, I can hardly wait for Cleveland and Akron LIBRARIES!!!!!

I am subscribing and so will return as I can to follow this delicious, delectable dissection, er I mean discussion. Does anyone know if the next book in the series will be republished soon?

I think I'm back in the land of the living - still a bit fuzzy headed but have been fascinated with the wonderful discussion that has been going on.

I'm waiting to see the tapes before I can decide whether I am a Luciaphile or phobe. I must say that even though I enjoyed "Queen Lucia" it really didn't make me want to read more of the books.

Yes, I'm sure we all have been around Lucias and no, I couldn't stand it, much too bossy myself, not overtly so, but underneath my smile lurks a control freak which I'm constantly trying to stuff down.

My favorite character is Olga, I like people who seem to be free spirits without any agendas.

Eileen Megan

Ros and Ginny, thanks for the Foljambe explanation. I had never come across the name before and never thought of that "full-jam" pronunciation. Today in the US it would be Fulgham.

I have a friend who shares many of Lucia's characteristics. Oddly, although I like my friend, I didn't like Lucia. Perhaps that's because Lucia is pretty broadly drawn, lacking the subtle, more positive characteristics you would see in someone you knew personally. I guess that's one of my complaints about Benson, although he did bring out some of the more subtle aspects of Georgie later in the book.

Jeryn!>Good to see you online again; my husband has a lovely aunt who lives in Cuyahoga Falls who you would love.

Having seen almost all the tapes at this point, I understand how the English citizens must have loved them; they no doubt kept score after each episode as to who won that round. Delicious and delectable stuff to talk about, truly.

Ros - you seem convinced that Georgie is homosexual. You will be surprised then if/when you see the tapes. But must forego talking of them until all has seen then. Much more fun than reading the book, I do believe, and the characterizations are wonderful; the actors do a wonderful job. Even the music becomes a treat when each episode begins as you anticipate what you may see and often are surprised.

Ginny - what are your answers to some of the questions you posed above?

I'll get started. Have to sign off shortly to await phone call. Will return aftter. 1) Being a licenced coward, if I belonged to an organization in which I HAD to put up with her, I'd avoid her as much as possible. If I couldn't avoid her, I'd try to get along with her, on the surface, making sure that we were not dancing to her tune unless I felt it had merit; not let her push us around. Coward though I may be, I have my limits, and if I finally had to confront the woman I would. 2) Olga is well drawn. Someone said she is a free spirit and she truly is. At the same time, she has not only talent but the determination to work hard so as to do the most with it. That's character. More later. .

Hi, Everybody, so much to talk about today, too.

Carol! We were posting together, and I want to address your excellent analysis tomorrow to do it justice.

I've been happily drowning in Bensoniana, the man was fascinating, and too little known, I think. I've complied some trivia about him at the end of this article, but the best story will have to wait till tomorrow....the famous "Storm at Sea."

OK, first off, there ARE no answers to the questions above, except what we decide? Our opinions will be our answers. Actually, were it not for the tireless and VERY VERY serious research of the Tilling Society, I fear a lot would not be known at all.

I know of one group also reading the Mapp & Lucia series and they aren't a patch on us, and that's the truth, as I'm amongst them, you might say....completely missed the reason Peppino dies, I think.

So the questions or topics above are not to lead you in any certain way, as I certainly don't know an answer, if there is one, but am just stunned today to READ some of your observations today, really, how DO you all come up with these things?

First, I'd really like to clarify some stuff that appears confusing?

1. Queen Lucia takes place entirely in a town called "Risholme." "Risholme" is based on the town in England of Broadway, and is featured in the heading, third photo down.

2. E.F. Benson lived in Rye, England, in a house called Lamb House which he named "Mallards," for the books. Miss Mapp lived there first and then Lucia, all this begins in Book IV, so is on the tapes, but not in the book we just read... It had a secret garden, shown in the tapes. It appears in the first and second photos down.

3. However, in the TAPES, the house shown on film as Miss Mapps house, "Mallards," is NOT Lamb House, but instead, a house called Swan's House on Watchbell Street, in Rye. It is now painted pink, and I have a photo of it to go up tomorrow. If you think you are confused by three houses, think how I felt when I couldn't FIND the pink house at all on my first trip to Rye, and spent much time looking for the Garden Room which had been long gone. Apparently the rooms at Lamb House are too small for crew, cameras, and actors, and the yard the same, so they filmed it in Watchbell Street at another house.

Megan!! So you'd chafe at Lucia, too? Control freak under that smile? I can't imagine that, but I can imagine getting a headache if I had to be around Lucia much. Yet she doesn't seem to gloat or does she? Yes, I believe she does. She wants to "parcel" the Guru out to the others once she co-opts him? And she wears a white robe! Then when he's found out, he's "Daisey's Guru." hahahahahaha

Incidentally, I LOVE Daisy's attempts to be "sending out messages of love, north, east, south, and west. So she sent a rather spiky one in the direction of her husband who was sitting due east, so that it probably got to him at once".....and later when she is irritated at Robert for suggesting the Guru be their cook... "'Darling,' said Mrs. Quantock, sending out more love. But she had a quick temper, and indeed the two were outpoured together, like hot and cold taps turned on for a bath." Oh I love Daisy's character, just reading about the Uric Acid diet had me in stitches.

The first time I read that I was reading myself to sleep and had to stifle snortles of glee so as not to send messages to my own husband who doubtless would not have been amused. I had to get up and leave the bedroom.

And I would say Olga is winning, hands down, in the best liked character contest. Of course, we've not taken up the videos yet and Miss Mapp, that will be interesting.

But, Megan, you don't think you'd read another one? Is it because she's got no new worlds to conquer?

Marge , that's a very interesting point on the characterizations, that they are broadly drawn. I think they are, in this first book, and having read all six, or shall I say eight, I think Benson refined them to some extent, though it may just be that after 5 books you feel you do know the character. That's a good point, and one I hope we can all be watching out for: the skill or lack thereof of the characterizations.

Jeryn, that's TWO quotable quotes, and they are going up in the heading, I agree totally, I'm just delighted and shocked at this, as you put it, "this delicious, delectable dissection, er I mean discussion." Love it!

I hope you have a successful move in 7 days, we must give you a proper literary send off! And want to hear all when you get there.

I thought Gateway ....is that really owned by Microsoft?

As far as the next book, I'll go look it up, if you get the entire series in one, you get them all as well as an included short story.

Ros: Yes, let's go for it on the Bookplate? Why not? Of course NOW I can't find the reference but Benson himself said in his preface to his biography of Charlotte Bronte that it was perfectly fine to delve into the personality of the author...I can't put it the way he did, but he approved. Maybe some day I can find it again.

But now, you said, "How deeply do you really want to go into the symbolism of the images in Benson's bookplate: the loose-fitting, body-concealing disguise, the erect plume, the palette that replaces a ruche around the neck, etc.? " Let's examine it, why not? But first, translate? What is a ruche and why do you all see a palette?? I'm not seeing one, with blobs of color or the shape??

And it's also a fascinating thought that Georgie was no thought to Peppino's masculinity? How would Peppino know that? Wouldn't and isn't it more threatening to be of the mind than the body?

Larry, can see you now, the door open, or a third person always present, isn't it something that we've come to that in this world? And I've heard that before, too, lots of prudent people take precautions.

Would you believe I heard my FIRST sort of sexual verbal harrassment recently in line at an AIRPORT? The guy to my right was a real JERK but his remarks were not aimed at me, naturally. Good thing for him. So then one wonders if one should speak up? And here's a whole line of people and clerks.....Eye rolling time.

Now, Larry, you very adroitly avoided in true EF fashion, my question, so one can only assume you wouldn't be attracted enough to a Lucia in the first place, to marry her!

And THANK YOU for fixing the heading!!

Loma, what fascinating thoughts!

Loma said, "Could there be another shade of meaning of the bookplate clown or Pierrot? Benson does not seem at all interested in immorality. And isn't that a large quill pen he is holding aloft? Considering all Benson's characters' conversations, is it not hard to imagine a mime being in the picture?"

Well, I would certainly like to hear what you all are thinking on this bookplate, and what you think it symbolizes. I believe it was designed by Benson's friend George Plank (the one he wrote to as Plankino,) but other than that I know nothing. What do you think it conveys about Benson and wonder what Benson meant by using it?

I apologize for this long post and will put the trivia I found on Benson today in the next one.

Ginny

When I first read Loma's post, I thought she was talking about "immortality," and nearly dropped my teeth as I had just found some interesting Benson quotes on death and hope to get them up sometime later in the week.

Yes, Michael Dell just completed building his "16" bedroom home on one of Austin's hilltops in the Westlake Hills area. Michael started his business as a UT student to pay his tuition and making so much money he dropped out. He has just turned 30. And Yes, Austin has hills (and lakes) we are not flat like North and West Texas.

Come on folks there is a difference between being effeminate and gay/homosexual. Many a gay man is very masculine and manly in his ways. And wasn't it Oscer Wilde jailed for flaunting his homosexual ways proving the law came down hard if you declaired your sexual preferance to be bi or homo?

As to a manly man doing needlepoint, what about Rosie Greer the famous football star in the 60s or 70s.

I young man, PHD.in Physics, 2 children, grew up with my son, remodled (banged the nails and sawed the boards) an old west Austin home I helped him buy, crochets afgans for relaxation. Although dear George does come across a little more flapper then a "he man" potential family man. My read is that none of these guys are riddled with or exhibiting much testosterone. This seems to be a story about womans use of power except for this Guru who me thinks is betraying them all. Still haven't finished but, getting there.

Seems to me even Olga is playing the power game. She flippently speaks ill of Lady Ambermere, shows little respect of Lucia and her party and acts as though the village is beneath her. There is one-up-menship or 'king of the Hill' all over this story. The husbands seem to be removed from the game. Their game is probably at their place of business or become a monastic as Lucia's husband seems to have romoved himself from the frey with his prose poems. Hmmm is the Guru a pretend monastic and therefore a foil for the other men?

Folks, I think this game of power is called POLITICS!

Oh my how to approach this. There are Lucias all around. She is not so unusual. They may not talk baby talk or pretend to speak Italian but they are still like her in the control and power thing. They are everywhere!!

Of course Georgie is homosexual. I don't see why some of you seem to be fighting that fact.

oh well I haven't finished the book. Too much going on in my life.

Am going to Paris on March 15 th. Can't wait.

Joan

I agree, Lucias abound. I avoid them when I can. If can't, try to find as many confederates as I can in case the particular one I'm dealing with at the time proposes something too outrageous. That way I can at least neutralize her. Hence she is timeless.

What could people find to do without her? Well, they could read, write letters, garden, gossip, take long walks throuh the lovely countryside, play Tennis, go horseback riding, and that's just for starters.

This is just a study of the background of the author and the books: E. F. Benson (born 1867 - died 1940)
Moved in upper society. (Aren't we impressed by this - aren't we all a bit of snobs - like Lucia?)

1893 - Dodo, his first book. One source called it 'scandalous'. Written while he was an archealogist in Greece.
1919 - Bought Lamb House (Mallards), in Rye (Tilling).
1920 - About the last 20 years he suffered from severe arthritis.
1920 - Queen Lucia, in Riseholme (Broadway).
1922 - Miss Mapp, in Tilling (Rye).
1927 - Lucia in London.
1931 - Mapp and Lucia, in Tilling. Mapp and Lucia together for the first time.
1935 - Lucia's Progress / Worshipful Lucia, in Tilling. Lucia acquires Mallards.
1939 - Trouble for Lucia, in Tilling.

Benson wrote over 100 books! Over 70 were novels, which included serious novels, ghost stories, 2 thrillers, some short stories. ... Of the others, there were studies or autobiographies on: Alcibiades (a 4th century B.C. Greek statesman and general), Magellan, Drake, Charlotte Bronte, Edward VII, and Queen Victoria. At least 2 were on sports, reflecting is early interests. Four were autobiographal. ... His last book was not out of the printers by the time he died.

The bottom line is that he must have been a tremendous worker -- my goodness, he was energetic as Lucia! From 1893 to 1940 is an average of over 2 books a year, and they were varied. He must have had MANY notebooks of notes! You can see from the spacing of the dates of the Lucia books that this was not an interest of his that outshown all others, though those books are what the public remembers him by.

When you see the films, notice the secret garden where Lucia does her "calisthenics." She's very funny.

Such fun. This is the best discussion I have been involved in so far. Lucia is of course a type and in the current days would probably be an attorney minimum. I have certainly met her many times, just sort of keep back and watch her work. The truth is they do most of the work in many ways.Small towns always have at least one Lucia. They need them to get things done. Georgia in the film is a bit different than Georgie in the book. Will wait until we are all done to comment more. Ginny, Well I had quite a bit of problems with the tape. Could not get it clear. But you must take into consideration that my three year old granddaughter does the VCR better than her nana. You had a note to send it to Joan, so it went out today.

I have read the book. I am not sorry that I read the one volume but there may be a lot about this entire thing I am missing. When I heard that there was a series both in print and on television, I was happy to get a chance to read something I would not have ordinarily chosen.

Well now I have. There were some highly amusing moments in the book. I am certain we have all known and know people who to some degree resemble these characters . I found them to be mostly supercilious, shallow, petty and somewhat pathetic. I personally felt oxygen deprived and panicky in the town of Riseholme.

Perhaps my extreme reaction to it has to do with my own feelings about social politics. I am not now nor have I ever been a good follower of the crowd, the social group. The Riseholme society is made up of everything I hate. You either followed the lead and were suffocated by the likes of a Lucia or rose up against her, again a nasty bit of business.

What I understand the least is why were there so many volumes? They sound like more of the same.

I have been to Broadway on a pass through the town, but my memory of it is somewhat dim. I seem to think that all of those lovely thatched cottages were highly touristy in nature and that the picture postcards were nicer than the reality.

Actually I think the books are quite different. Its nota more of the same sort of thing, but you do get more and more familiar with the different characters. He also probably moved Lucia to give us more characters.

I liked Lucia from the beginning... I have seen several like her in our small town and that personality does get things done... They run the PTA and the Church Ladies, organize a day care center and petition for more swings and slides in the park..  Now that I'm old enough that I don't have to compete, it's rather fun to watch the fur and feathers fly around here.. Lucia certainly did her share of stirring them all into motion..

The regrets are that Lucia did not put all that organizing skill to better use.

Now Daisey is another 'poor soul' who should have more backbone to stand against Lucia, but instead her resistance withered when she met a confrontation... But leaders like Lucia can not exist without followers like Daisey and Georgie.

Pat---You got THAT right! That last sentence cuts me to the bone as memories of times when should have stood up and had my say instead of clenching my trrth and letting the point go, flash through my head. But, Pat, did you have to mention the PTA? That was an event (at a meeting) where I did stand up and fight and lost by one vote. Still rankles. Helen---I'm not a joiner either and you're right re Lucia being the only game in town. Except when Olga'a is at home from a tour. Stephanie---Can't argue your point. She does get things done; even the world might be better off without them. Those tableauxs for instance.

Excuse me, please' for chiming in again so soon but I was just about to fall asleep when an idea I had in mind while I was reading the book suddenly reared up in neon lights. Barbara, your daughter has energy and a knowledge of people. The lack of the latter quality, is what's wrong with Lucia. She hasn't a clue about other people except as they relate to her. Not only does she not "walk a few miles in anyone else's moccasins", but she is unaware of this large void in herself. People like this are dangerous. If Riseholm had been located in Bavaria at this time. Lucia might have met Adolph Hitler and been enchanted by his piercing blue eyes and flattery and "taken him up" as the saying goes. Certainly many young German matrons did. And as the years went on and the dread words Death Camps began to be whispered about in German circles, she would have given that laugh of hers and tossed her head and called it all stuff and nonsense put about by Adolph's enemies. In her mnd such a thing could not be true therefore it was not true.

Oh my Carol; how horrible and how perceptive of you. I wonder if maybe that is the lifestyle typical of many woman in Europe at the time of Benson's writing and therefore, 'but for the grace of God' Hitler was not born in their country.

Another comment about Georgie. I think of him as "asexual", is that the right word for a person who enjoys the fantasy of loving someone (Olga) without wanting to actually physically express those feelings?

Carol, your remarks reminded me about a friend (?) that "ran" my life for a time and became very nasty when I found other friends to chum around with when she was too busy for me with her latest male conquest.

Eileen Megan

Is this a discussion or WHAT?? Every time I come in here with buckets of information and thoughts, I get swept away by your ideas and throw mine in the back of the closet, and this is another time, I can tell you right now.

Barbara: said, "This seems to be a story about womans use of power except for this Guru who me thinks is betraying them all." Now, Barbara, what makes you say that? You thought that BEFORE you read the ending, why did you suspect the Guru? I did have a moment's pause when the Guru heard that Lady Ambermere was from Madras, and loved EF's thought that "It would never do to appear as a high-caste Brahmin from Benares before anyone who knew India with such fatal intimacy, for he might now entirely correspond with Her preconceived notions of such a person." hahahahaahah

And you, too, saw Olga as playing a power game, interesting. You make good points there: she DID ignore the party and she DID make fun of Lady Ambermere, and I wonder if Benson here was telling us his opinion of such?

By the way, are we to make anything of the names for the "girls?" Miss Piggie and Miss Goosie??

Does anybody know what "Cattivo Ragazzo" or just "Cattivo" means? I'd really like to know. I do know what "Quai Hi" means and will say, someday.

Now, how about THIS for a startling statement: (Barbara again:) "Hmmm is the Guru a pretend monastic and therefore a foil for the other men?"

Barbara! A "pretend monsatic is a foil?" Do explain, PLEASE!!

Now Joan G mentions Lucias are everywhere, and I know she's right, I know several myself. "There are Lucias all around. She is not so unusual. They may not talk baby talk or pretend to speak Italian but they are still like her in the control and power thing. They are everywhere!! "

So you see this as a "control and power thing?" And several have mentioned the competitve thing, this is getting very interesting.

So at this point, do we have ANYBODY here reading this who thinks THEY ARE Lucia? Just insterested to know?

And there you go, off to Paris in the Springtime, I think we need to get our Joan G to head up a Books Overseas Jaunt!

Now Carol mentioned massing forces to neutralize Lucia, and I wonder if a true Lucia would ever be neutralized by such maneuvering? Since she doesn't depend on the will of everyone, then she ought to be able to sail aove it...but somebody said she NEEDED the Georgies of the world to function! Which is right??

Loma: Thanks so much for the biographical material! It adds a lot! EF is a mine of surprising contractions, and hope to get some of them up in the next few days, but am running behind.

I WAS shocked, tho, in looking up EF in the Cambridge Guide to Literature in English to find a nice listing for A.C. (Arthur) Benson, EF's brother, who, incidentally, wrote the words to the hymn "Land of Hope and Glory," to Elgar's music, and found EF listed as, "Novelist and younger brother of Arthur Benson." I bet the Tilling Society is up in arms!

More in next post on your comments, what do you think about the above?

Ginny

Ella mentions the garden, I think she must have ESP as I just found a splendid photo of a garden party there which I HOPE will scan, it's very old and faint.

Are the tapes, by the way, visible at all? If you find they are not, can you please mail back to me, do write?? I looked at all of them before mailing, but I can send new ones.

Steph! That's a wonderful quote, will put it up, too. I agree, this is a totally GREAT discussion, and where is everybody's opinion, by the way, on the bookplate??

I have found some new info on the Bookplate from the Tilling Society and want to see if you have guessed what they said.

Stephanie is right, they do exist and do much of the work of small towns.

Do you ever wonder why it is that some people rise to prominence and others do not? I'm just about convinced it's a matter of the thickness of skin. Some people can just "take it," when confronted and shrug it off and some take it to heart, and feel that the fight is not worth it.

I can't see Lucia giving up easily. I know she IS brought to tears quite late on in the series, and Georgie immediately springs to her aid, it's such an unusual thing.

And here's our Helen at last! And out of a sickbed, too, now that's devotion! I do hope you feel better soon, both of you at once, WHO is making the hot soup?

Now Helen had a lot of great quotes, "I found them to be mostly supercilious, shallow, petty and somewhat pathetic. I personally felt oxygen deprived and panicky in the town of Riseholme. "

Now, here I can truly see this, as our Helen is a true individualist, can't see her putting up with Lucia for 1/2 second!

"I am not now nor have I ever been a good follower of the crowd, the social group. The Riseholme society is made up of everything I hate. You either followed the lead and were suffocated by the likes of a Lucia or rose up against her, again a nasty bit of business."

Now here I sense some actual experience in real life to produce such a fiery attack!! Helen, I bet, knows a Lucia in real life. And it's interesting to me that Helen has this reaction because I wonder if it's EF's reaction, too? Have just been reading about how he despised pretention and snobbishness and stupidity. His characters which he ridiculed were "outrageously stupid or pompous or ambitious or cruel, or an amalgam of all five. By hiding serious arguments inside hilarious plots, he would be able to achieve an influence far wider than he had ever hoped or intended." (Brian Masters).

When we have all seen the tapes, you will be shocked, I think, at how Benson originally plotted Miss Mapp's characer!

Now in answer to Helen's question, I agree with Steph. They subsequent volumes are all different. I have always wondered what my reaction would have been to come upon the series for the first time in the form of Queen Lucia . I first saw the videos, and will withold my opinion of them till we get to them, then the Mapp & Lucia books, and actually read Queen Lucia almost last....I don't think it's the strongest of the books, but the little vignettes, the Fete, the yards and yards of muslin, the Uric Acid Monthly (an actual Connecticut publication found pasted in EF's scrapbook) do add up to an unforgettable bag of tricks.

Helen, you need to steel yourself and watch one of the tapes!!hhahahahaha

Stephanie said something very much along the lines of plot development, " He also probably moved Lucia to give us more characters. " This is exactly what was just stated in the List Serve, I expect that Riseholme didn't have enough challenges for Lucia, she needed a foil to bang up against and thus she moved into the area of another "Queen," Miss Mapp.

I thought Pat had a very interesting thought as she's the one who said that the Lucia's of the world NEED the Georgies and the Daisys or else they can't rule! In order to keep the Daisys in line, then, you'd think Lucia would have to have SOME people skills, or do we consider that her ego is so great she can see people only in how they can serve her?? Would we today call her a "user?"

Carol brougt up the tableaux! hahahahahah, now I must confess I'd love to see ONE sometime. Have any of you ever seen one? I expect this is not normal party fare in the 1990s.

Can you imagine the colossal GALL to appear as Brunhilde in FRONT of the star who made it famous? Can you credit her taking all the credit for Olga's performance later on and saying Olga came to her for advice?

By the way, Olga's halo slips a little in this one, too, in the matter of the "submerged tenths."

Here's the question for today, paraphrasing Barbara: "Is you is or is you ain't Lucia?" Do we have any amongst US, as it were??

Now on the Hitler thing, I do think that Lucia would have been totally turned off there. For one thing, EF HATED despots and you remember Lucia had no use for anybody she couldn't "run."

It's a strange coincindence, tho, that I was reading somewhere yesterday that Lucia's hair would probably have looked like Wallis Simpson's, and we've all read about Mrs. Simpson's fascination with Hitler. Still, I can't see Lucia caught up there for one moment. If you read the later books, they're quite a hoot about Tilling's stand against the enemy.

Quite touching.

Great comments, what do you see in that Bookplate??

ARE you Lucia yourself??

Does Lucia need the "Daisys" of the world to rule?

Ginny

And I have one more thought: talking about men and women in this book, and the differences between them,and noticing Megan's observation that Georgie is "asexual," which is most interesting, I've read that men use humor as a way of getting out their aggressions in a socially acceptable way. If you've ever heard some of the "hard kidding" that goes on between men, some of the jabs fairly take your breath away. It's a "man thing," I guess, and I'm just wondering in this book if EF Benson was using the weapon he was best suited to use: humor, as a way of stating his feelings without possibly causing offense?

Benson was no dope: a Greek and Latin major and Archaeologist at King's College, Cambridge, he won distinction and honor as a practicing Archaeologist. His book on Alciabiades was a masterpiece, scholarly, disciplined, and thorough. (Masters) He was granted the Honorary Fellowship made vacant by the death of Rudyard Kipling...and the Fellows of Magdalene College (where Arthur, his brother, was a Master) insisted that he was "the most fitting of all living writers to succeed to Hardy and Kipling." (Masters).

Yet he had tried his hand at serious works of fiction and felt he had failed.

The second book in the series, Lucia in London, now considered a favorite among the readers of the series, was not a favorite of Benson's. He made the statement that it had no more to do with serious fiction than had a game of marbles." These were books he raced through, enjoying himself all the while, while he prepared for his real work, biographies.

But like so many authors, Benson's "real works" were never to be as popular or well received as his stylistic novels of Edwardian England.

Benson personally had two serious "bete noirs:" cynicism and self-righteousness. He felt there was a vast difference between the posturings of the pretentious and the "insidious poison of the pious."

"The meaning that it was so important to him to convey is a simple but honourable truth which so often passed unnoticed in his fiction that he began to disguise it in the richest humour."

Masters makes this statement in his biography of EF Benson The Life of EF Benson "Benson allows us to make fools of ourselves, by being amused at his creatures, while taking ourselves so seriously. The purpose of his art, at its best, is precisely to hold a mirror up to nature. The Miss Mapps of his imagination are not grotesque caricatures, they are not invented puppets at whom we can point a finger and consider ourselves apart, they are merely exaggerated versions of ourselves....From his earliest youth Fred was wont to embellish and adorn a story or prove a point by emphasis; he knew that truth did not necessarily lie in accuracy. The Lucia books are the culmination of this method, and we should be wrong to assume that we may find their characters risible and absurd, yet conclude they have nothing to teach us."

I like that. But do you agree with it? That's the question!

More on Benson's unusual family tomorrow.

Ginny

Edit: Lucia in London is scheduled for rerelease in April of 1999.

Ginny, to pick a couple of sentences out of your great posts: Benson "knew that truth did not necessarily lie in accuracy." That's subtle.   "He was granted the Honorary Fellowship made vacant by the death of Rudyard Kipling." That seems to have been high honor indeed!

One source said that Lucia was not Marie Corelli, popular novelist and a sometime friend of his, but that he took certain characteristics of Corelli's (perhaps the characteristics which bugged or amused him the most?) and put them into his Lucia character.

No, I ain't.( Lucia ). Yes I is. (Daisy and Georgie). LOL, Carol

I'm bringing up the rear again, although I've read all the posts with great interest, and am finally far enough along in the book to appreciate what's going on here. Ginny, may I please have the tapes at the tail-end , too? If I find them here I'll let you know not to send them. Yes, indeeed, ther are Lucias everywhere and in everyone's life. Perhaps the world would be dull without them, but sometimes ...too much! The Daisys of the world are hard-pressed to know how to deal with them, that's for sure. If you get caught up in a Lucia-whirlwind, you fear you will be dashed on the rocks if you try to break out of the centrifical force she creates. I can't remember who quoted Dorothy Parker, but I laughed a lot ...tonstant weader fwowed up. I wonder ... do Lucias know that they are Lucias? How would one of them explain a Lucia?
The Guru: I felt he was a con artist from the start, mainly because poor Daisy was so taken with him. Showing up on her doorstep with no visible means of support, charging the brandy, being moved by his spiritual forces to change residences as he is lured to do by Lucia...why would a Brahmin be such a nomad?
Favorite scene: Georgie with the poker offering to shoot his sisters in the middle of the night, unaware that his "cosmetology" has failed him (the flopping hair)!
Ginny, that's a wonderful, provocative quote from Masters: "...we should be wrong to assume that we may find their characters risible and absurd, yet conclude they have nothing to teach us." The characters and situations are entertaining, but this thought enriches our perspective.

Lucia, among other things though interested in culture, had generally limited vision, which unfortunately did not stop her from strong opinions.

Daisy would easily get interested and absorbed in new things. We may be amused at her choices, but if you stop to think, we are still interested in such things.

Georgie was a supporter. Note Lucia's garden party before the Guru and Olga and Georgie showed up -- Lucia missed Georgie's support.

Maybe we see these traits in others. Maybe in ourselves. There are always so many facets and layers of thought in a book by a good writer, and these are only a small portion.

Did EF have a very good opinion of his fellow man I wonder? None of the males in this book have strong personalities, unless I am missing someone. Georgie, one of the main characters in this book, is the kind of man who "....never in all the years of his ministry had he failed to be at her (Lucia's) elbow through the entire duration of her garden parties, flying about on her errands like a tripping Hermes, herding her flocks if she wanted them in one part of the garden raher than another......and coming back to heel again ready for further tasks." I have never met a man like Georgie - so under the "thumb and thimble" of a lady, have you?

Do you find any strong male figures in this book?

Lucia had to have some character. Peppino ( Who I found appealing) fell in love and married her. Besides of course she does tailor herself to the different individuals. Think of her behaviour with Georgie and then some of the other men. Ginny, I must confess that I was struck by Bensons comment on serioius work. Dorothy Sayers of course felt the same way about Peter Wimsey who is a passion of mine. She felt that the books were just tossed off instead of her serious work ( religious material) She was of course a serious scholar and could not abide the fact the Peter was the most successful character she ever envisioned. Later in life, she did admit however the Harriet was patterned after Her. Did Benson ever admit anything? I would have though he cast himself as a woman of course Either Lucia or Olga.

Ahhh, Stephanie, the Peter Wimsey books are my all-time favorite detective series! I shall sit myself down one of these days and reread them all.

Back to Lucia, I believe Georgie to be at least a likeable character, if not overly strong or "masculine". He and Olga are more admirable than Lucia, really. I somehow feel we are never "inside" Lucia in the sense of seeing through her eyes. Benson definitely lets us "inside" Georgie so that we see the events through his eyes. But Lucia's actions are only described rather than felt. I'm not sure I'm making this clear... what is the correct terminology for this writer's tool concerning viewpoint?

Jeryn, I don't know the correct term for it, but I do think you have hit on something very telling: " I somehow feel we are never "inside" Lucia in the sense of seeing through her eyes." I have a feeling nobody ever got inside Fred, either, so interesting you noticed that. I didn't. Yet I think you are right, except in the opening scenes, you remember she imagines it would be a "treat" for the village to speculate on where she might be. Truly an egocentric person, and so far, nobody will admit to being like her!

Stephanie, you mentioned Dorothy Sayers, I wasn't aware of her situation, but certainly Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's most famous detective, Sherlock Holmes was a similar creation and one that Doyle actually grew to hate. You know he killed him off, only to have to resurrect him by public demand.

"I would have thought he cast himself as a woman of course Either Lucia or Olga. " Why a woman? Ella, too, noticed not too many strong male characters. When you think of it, the Major in the videos is a buffoon? Too much drinking. Mr. Wyse is a fop, tho a bit elegant in the book, but I get ahead of myself here.

WHY would you think Benson cast himself as a woman in the piece?

Ella: I thought those were really good points: did we find any strong male characters? Well, Peppino, despite his name, seems the most manly to me, what about the rest of you?

"I have never met a man like Georgie - so under the "thumb and thimble" of a lady, have you?"....gosh, yes, I sure have. Have the rest of you, are you kidding? Absolutely. Maybe not so blatantly in public but sure!!

Now THIS is a good thought, I wish I could put EVERYBODY'S stuff into the heading but it would be so long nobody could read it, "Did EF have a very good opinion of his fellow man I wonder? " I'm putting that up, tho!

Now what opinion can we gain from this book of Fred Benson's opinion of his fellow man? Is it despairing? Is it hopeful? Is it cynical? Who ARE the heroes of this story?

You know, looking once again at that bookplate, you know what I see? A clown. Did they have clowns in the 1920's? I know it's supposed to be a Pierrot, a mime. Benson, we remember, was a wonderful mimic: in fact he could mock the entire Royal Family and did so on many occasions.

But what is a mime? And why does he mime? And what part does he play in society at all? And doesn't a clown supposedly have another side to his nature, and isn't all comedy thought to originate in sadness?

I don't know the answers to these questions but I know Benson's family was VERY disfunctional, even before the word was known. His father, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was apparently a manic depressive, a man of rigid propriety who married his cousin. She became despondent, and was desperately unhappy. None of their gifted, eccentric children married: Fred's brother A.C.(Arthur) Benson, was extrememly critical, a manic depressive, teetering on the brink of melancholy and depression, his sister Maggie slipped into suicidal madness and was institutionalized for 10 years prior to her death, his brother Hugh became dogged by a fear of being buried alive, and only "Fred, urbane, kindly and enigmatic, could steer them through their crises, taking refuge in smart London drawing rooms...and tilting at the absurdities and pretensions of the world in his writing." (Masters)....After his career as an archaeologist, Fred had worked for the Greek Red Cross in 1898, doing relief work for the Greeks made homeless by the Turks. Upon his return to England he became quite a man about town, and took up writing and figure skating, earning a gold medal from the National Skating Association. Both Hugh and Arthur, Fred's brothers, thought him "a frivolous dilettante," (Reavell) and Aurhur, always a man very serious about himself, "grew almost obsessed with his brother's easy social succes, and what he saw as its artificiality. He deplored the vision of Fred flitting from Dowager Countess to Dowager Countess and not bothering to think deeply; he went so far as to suggest, many times, that Fred knew no real emotion and held no real opinions....On other occasions Arthur descended from his lofty contempt and recognised that the coldness, the lack of visible emotion, the irrational fear of being touched , was a trait shared by all three brothers." (Masters)

The farther I get into Benson's character and background, the more intriguing he becomes. I think the "floaters" of the world, the mental dancers, as it were, the mimes, are sometimes much more complex than their more serious conterparts, and sometimes more true, and I don't think I would have come to the conclusions about Fred that I am beginning to if we had not discussed this book. To me there are too many imponderables here, too many contradictions. Or is this, as the song said, "Too much of nothing?"

Ginny

By the way, had you ever heard of EF Benson before you read this book?

We now have 4 tapes circulating and we'll be addressing their version soon. Please contact me if your tape does NOT come with an address within for shipping forward.

Who was it who asked what Lucia herself would have thought of a Lucia type? That's a good question, I can just imagine.

As far as who we think we are, I myself am Daisy, and that's my name on the Benson List serve, a taker up of new fads, I can't even SAY the Uric Acid Monthly without bursting into gales of laughter. Poor Robert! hahahahaha

Coming tomorrow: the view from the Church Tower, St. Mary's Parish Church, Rye.

Ginny

Actually, I think Robert is the most manly character in the book and exhibits the most common sense. He not only puts up with Daisy's fads but pays for them with his hard earned money and doesn"t seem to mind if it makes her happy. He's steady, goes to work every day and sees the common sense in letting the sponging Guru cook for him so the Guru won't be a total financial loss. He's more manly than Peppino who dreeps about the house all day writing "prose poems" which he hasn't the guts to send to a publisher and risk a rejection slip. More later

Ginnythank you. You have brought so much to this discussion.
I felt so right reading, after you informed us that this story is taking place in Broadway. I visited Broadway on my first trip to Britain. As usual, I had to have my own adventure and decided being encased in a bus with 11 Texans and then staying in London for 3 days was not giving me a taste of the “real” England. So, early one morning off to Paddington and on to Evesham followed by a bus to Broadway. The village seemed a characterization of itself and I was delighted. At the time the British Isle tourists, knowing a bargain, did their shopping in Broadway where prices were far less then the duty free shops in London or the airport. From Broadway I brought home my brown cottage teapot.

Benson had me up and down like a roller coaster - just when Lucia becomes more insufferable then I could handle she is so humiliated I had to feel sorry for her.

For me one of the best quotes from the book is, “How terribly interesting little things are”. That statement put it all in perspective and who had value or didn’t was no longer an issue.

I know we all get something different from reading a book and for me this book has been a lesson in Power. The kinds, use, fall from, obtaining, techniques for making yourself more powerful. taking power from others, manipulating other, empowering others, needing power, wanting power and using people who are power needy. Once I mentally switched everyone’s gender the story fell in place. Then I had some real fun playing with the characterizations and likening them to scenarios and people we all know.

“Lucia’s benevolent scheme of educating and refining” - her way was being an Icon to the arts, a role model to all. Like a cook, she harvested what ever and who ever she noticed that had drama and added it/them to her artistic banquet. She is a doer. When her power is taken she does not go off into depression but, uses her words - sarcasm and irony and would have cocooned herself with her man of words, her prince consort Peppino. I loved Carol’s description ”dreeps about the house...” couldn’t you just see him as a woman in housecoat and hair rollers till 10:

I still see the Guru as a foil for Peppino. As obliging and dull is Peppino the Guru is dressed like a peacock and has his own agenda. He is not Lucia’s shadow. Regardless of morals, just talking of power, he “takes” what he wants rather then waiting for rejection slips or dreaming out windows. Also a teacher, he directly benefits his pupils. Others may see him as their trophy but, he is focused, his own man, taking care of himself, others and takes things from others.

As Lucia “does” Daisy “brings”. Daisy only wants to impress so she can become the power head by dazzling everyone with who/what she finds and brings. Princess Pop off - ski acts out the dramatic characterization that rolly poly Daisy would love to pop off. For me her Robert is redeemed from the patriarch wanting his tasty food fixed by others, minimizing Daisy’s jewel, the Guru by suggesting a payment of beer and 40 pounds into a caring man protecting Daisy’s secret. Secrets seem to be a tool of power throughout the book.

Great is Loma’s description of George - the supporter. He is also the messenger, much is told thru his eyes and, he lets his emotions rule his devotions. Again role reversal, Pierrot (the large button on Benson alluding to Pierrot) loves Columbine and Columbine deserted him to play all day with Harlequin. Pierrot sings of the loneliness of the world and his longing for Columbine who then knows the truth and chooses Pierrot as her companion forever. In the story a pig is used to harness a wagon to go after the wayward dancing (George wants to be vigorous and light) Columbine.

And Olga! Olga manipulates people. She reminds me of President Johnson, learning everyone’s hot button, getting what she thinks is best for you, the village and everyone in it. She does have a wider, more worldly perspective and KNOWS IT as well as how to use power. She does empower more then she humiliates. To me she is the Queen of Power where as Queen Lucia is a princess in comparison.

I became suspecious of the Guru early on because Lucia, Daisy and George were all putting value in wanting or being needy. Not satisfied with what they were or had, their wanting made them dependent on a fixer and that usually leads to throwing yourself away or giving away the store and that is an invitation for abuse. Then the brandy charged sent off the alarm.

All in all, I still say “you either is” a force to be reckoned with
“or you ain’t” and therefore are “...like sheep that have been astray...”
OR are like George’s sisters who whack things around the countryside, spill the beans and like drinking their Clicquot.
Come to think of it that is my favorite champagne but, I’m not much on whacking things!

Ginny, that was me that asked if Lucia could define Lucia, and now I wonder if a Lucia would recognize herself in this one! I wonder if she would admit it! I am thinking of one or two in my past: I believe one would not, and the other would, with a little smile. I plan to lend her my book.
One of your quotes on Benson caused me to identify him (somewhat) with Georgie, the character I'm enjoying the most: "Fred's brothers, thought him "a frivolous dilettante," (Reavell) and Aurhur, always a man very serious about himself, "grew almost obsessed with his brother's easy social succes, and what he saw as its artificiality. He deplored the vision of Fred flitting from Dowager Countess to Dowager Countess and not bothering to think deeply; he went so far as to suggest, many times, that Fred knew no real emotion and held no real opinions...." I don't think that Georgie had no real emotion, but I can see how his frivolity might cause someone to think that. I wonder if Benson created this character to reflect certain things in his nature. Maybe more than one of his characters does that.
Thankks for putting me on tape list!
Barbara, beautiful musings, especially on the characters. You have drawn my attention to the Guru in a more positive way and have made "agenda" a more positive term. Better than just being a dry, floating leaf, a chunk of flotsam or jetsam, or whatever.

Charlotte, I received the video today, thanks.

Ginny, I don't have an address to send it to when I'm finished.

Jo, I agree with you about Georgie being Benson's alter ego in the book, exaggerated, of course, but still . . .

I actually liked the Guru, a scamp, no doubt, but a likeable one.

All my opinions are from a distance of about 2 months. I still haven't re-read the book to see if the opinions I've expressed so far are still valid. . . but first I must see the video.

Eileen Megan.

Whew! I was "otherwise occupied" over the weekend, and just finished reading through the last 30 or so posts. What a lot of great ideas to chew through. Ginny, I had never heard of E. F. Benson until you started promoting him here.

Someone brought up point of view, and the neon flashed. I had forgotton how different the first chapter is from the rest of the book, and indeed, it's because only there do we actually get inside Lucia's head. Frankly, I didn't see much in there.

The comparison of Olga with LBJ is quite an arresting idea! And although Olga is as manipulative as Lucia, she's more thoughtful and less frivolous. In today's small town America, I think it would be Olga working on the zoning board, organizing volunteers for Meals on Wheels, running the animal shelter, and circulating the petition for more traffic lights, while Lucia would be organizing a comic skit for the Women's Club tea.

If I lived in Riseholme at the time of Lucia, I would boycott her social events in disgust, find one or two like-minded friends, and go for a walk in the hills. (Or are there hills in Broadway?)

Marge! I agree totally with your last sentence!! My instinct precisely!!!

Ginny, you are just outdoing yourself analyzing and critiquing this book! For all your trouble, THANK YOU!! It is all so interesting. The first I ever heard of E.F. Benson was when we were compiling the SN LIST of alltime favorite books [which can be viewed as a clickable still in ...The Library, A Conversation Nook]. I had already put it on my list of "must reads" when it was chosen for this discussion.

At first, I didn't think I liked it very well; but the characters do sort of grow on you so now I think I will most likely go ahead and read the whole series, as soon as I can find them. [Cuyahoga and Summit County Libraries, Here I Come!]

Ginny, you;re doing a fabulous job with this book! While I was reading it, I had no idea there was so much to it. I'm still working on the questions from a few days ago. The clown. It is well established in drama circles here that it represents the flip side of tragedy; comedy and tragedy, laughter and tears being almost intertwined emotions. I don't know what he means for it to represent here. When you think of poor Georgie growing up with those outlandish sisters and still putting up with them I wonder he didn't go into a monatary and become a monk And yet he loved them.

Wow Carol that is another view of George - he is always placed between 2 woman. I had not seen it before you pointed out how insufferable his 2 sisters are but, his sisters, although they are so busy whaking golf balls and staying out of the village politics, really turn his life on end, as does the competition between first Lucia and Daisy - 2 woman - and then, later Lucia and Olga. Much of the story seems to be told thru his eyes therefore, the title may be Queen Lucia but he is really the pivot to making many of these characters work. Also, he is the only one that does not travel, to London. As I remember he speaks of going away on vacation but actually stays, where as both Lucia, Daisy and the sisters are going or coming.

Hi, All! Well, the illustration yesterday was supposed to be the view from the church tower, but I thought we'd all enjoy that once we saw the videos and the point made about the "Giardino Segreto" and the only overlooked by the church tower bit, have some great illus of the tower. When I saw that very handsome photo of EF, tho, I had to put it in first. Quite a good looking man, I think, and, perhaps just a bit forbidding? It may be the photograph, we know he was quite the dry wit and mime, but that's a steely look nonetheless and you can see the academic (tho he said he was the academic failure of the family) and archaeologist, maybe.

I have a copy of the kind and gracious letter Benson wrote to a new group of American fans and you'll be delighted at his sweetness, so obviously a man of many sides.

ON THE TAPES, we have them by geographic areas? So Northern tapes stay up there and Midwestern stay there, etc., they "go" faster. So let's chime in now, I see Eileen has a set and Pat W has a set and Sandy has a set and who is the fourth??

OF course Robert is a "manly" man! Well done, Carol, I don't think we have a problem identifying his strong presence. And he does work and indulges Daisy--to a point. And the scenes where she is sending out spiky "messages of love" to all the compass points remain my favorites in this book.

WHAT?? hahahah Peppino "dreeps"? hahahahah I think we have our OWN EF here! Dreeps? hahah Droop and creep? hahah Love it!

He does sort of dreep, doesn't he?

In the books, and NOT on the tapes unless I missed it, in the first scene in the tapes where Lucia is pretending to sit and read in her mourning, in the books she pretends to be reading one of Peppino's little books which are printed tied up with ribbons, and when Daisy comes in, Lucia can't get the knot open so she can't be reading the book, it's a hoot.

Yes, I agree that Helen may find the next books different. Of course, they are all about Lucia, so if one tired of her early, one would surely be surfeited by the end of the 8th book. The List Serve is discussing the change and one member says, "However, I still didn't like her very much, in the pre-Mapp books. Then in Mapp & Lucia, I *do* like Lucia much better. 'Til now, I've assumed that Mapp is just so awful, that Lucia by contrast seems wonderful. But now I've realized that, no, if that were the case, then once I started re-reading the non-Mapp books, I'd have a different perception of Lucia, and would be likely to appreciate her more (because I'd still have Mapp in the back of my mind). But I don't.

So... It's my opinion that something really did change in Lucia's character, or in Benson's perception of her. Was this deliberate on Benson's part? And why did he do it?

Also -- something I'd never realized until this reading and Pug's excellent summary is that the change in Lucia comes about not just when she meets Mapp but also when she has lost Peppino. I have no idea if either event (or both) actually changes her character, or is meant to, but I would say "yes" . What do you think? One difference between Lucia & Mapp that I've just remembered, probably because someone else on the list just said it, is that Lucia learns from her mistakes and doesn't make them again. Mapp never learns. So perhaps Lucia learned something from either losing Peppino, or from meeting Mapp (seeing herself, perhaps !?) or both."

I thought those were good statements.

Barbara, thanks, and how I enjoyed reading about your Broadway adventure. I've not been there but will certainly plan to go. We ought all go to Rye on a pilgrimage: they now give EF tours and the tenant of Lamb House is much nicer about letting people in to view it.

You can actually STAY in Grebe (Lucia's house in the videos which has the flood): it's a bed and breakfast.

I liked your point about Power, too. I do think this is what the book is about, the little ways Power is used by people in everyday situations. OR is that too competitive? Do you all see Lucia as competitive and do competitive people wear you out??

And then Barbara again with a bon mot: Daisy and pop off! hahahahah, now I wonder if Benson, had never thought of this before, I wonder if Benson intended that?

And the Secrets being the wedge of power, honestly, Barbara, your posts are like a box of candy, such good stuff here and there and bits of sweet and sour bits, too.

WHAT?? Daisy just wants to impress? Ah, say not so, I thought she was serious? Do you all see that??

Jo: (Uh oh, I typed Lucia there, is that a Freudian slip? hahahahah) So you have one Lucia like friend who wouldn't recognize herself and one who would smile. Can you see either of them putting up with the real thing??

Hope you will get the tapes soon and enjoy them.

Megan, will consult the list and see who's next on yours, the switchboard here is all lit up and nobody's home. I think Pat is to mail to .....will write you all.

Marge, so glad you're back! I think Benson was just trying out the character for the first time in the book and didn't have it down to the perfection it became later, but I had not noticed the difference until you mentioned it...I did notice the singular introspection: is that the only time in this book? I know it occurs later, and we do feel sorry for Lucia, but she really dug herself in, in a later book with awful pretensions.

I don't know if Broadway has hills, but would love to find out. It's not far from Stratford and the Royal Shakespeare Theater and the Parish Church where Shakespeare is buried and where the priest will pray for you if you make too much noise in the gift shop! The place is charming, I like Stratford, no matter what people say about it.

The photo today, by the way, shows one of the cobblestoned streets of Rye and how difficult it is to navigate there. O\r it will in a minute.

Jeryn, Carol and Barbara, thanks for the kind words, I can't tell you how much I am enjoying this discussion, it's a tremendous start to the new year and a worthy one, I think. Want to do them all differently.

I hope you will read the other books, I think you will get "hooked," I sure am, and the two sequels are just as good, too, tho they don't have quite the master's touch, they are memorable. I agree with you and Marge, tho, there would be three of us hiking on the hills, if there are any!

I thought the Olga/ LBJ comparison interesting. There was apparently a lot more to LBJ than anyone ever dreamed? I was not a fan of the man myself, but it's interesting, nonetheless.

I hope you have a good move, we'll want to hear all as soon as you get settled, and hope you enjoy the tapes.

I do think the subsequent books are a little different as the characters develop and take on new traits.

Also there was a big article on Pierrot in the NY Times Sunday but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Now, Carol, that IS a fascinating thought, on Georgie," I wonder he didn't go into a monastery and become a monk And yet he loved them."

Well, my goodness, if ever there was a query that applied to EF himself, that was it. And of course, his brother, Hugh, did, not a monk but a Monsigneur, pretty darn close. And all the brothers lived celibate lives, perhaps not monastic but again, a couple of them were close.

Barbara, WOW yourself, WHAT a point about Georgie ALWAYS being surrounded by 2 WOMEN? Once again, I hadn't noticed that, and there's nothing in EF's life except his mother and sister to reference there and his mother WAS a power in his life, too.

And so it does seem that the "story seems to be told thru his eyes therefore, the title may be Queen Lucia but he is really the pivot to making many of these characters work. "

GEORGIE as the pivot, Georgie as the fulcrum which makes the larger powers work!! WOW!!

Am trying to think what happens when Georgie IS neutralized when he DOES go away: the Mrs. Brocklebank episode springs to mind. When we have all seen the tapes who want to, we can address this again, but it sure looks for right now that Georgie is the main event. Wonder what that says to us about EF Benson's opinions?

---

If you've read the entire series you know that Lucia donates an organ to the church later on and guess WHAT the first piece on it is to be? And guess WHO plays it at the dedication of the organ? That whole scene is a riot, with the guest organist playing Falberg's "Storm at Sea," and the incidence of a real storm outside the church.

It's fascinating to me that just such a storm accompanied the unveiling of a memorial to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Edward White Benson (father of EF and AC). A.C. Benson's account, published in On the Edge of Paradise , published by John Murray, indicates a ceremony of pomp and glory in Canterbury Cathedral on July 6th, 1899,in the presence of royalty and no fewer than thrity bishops--"even Lucia could not aspire to quite this...the original [storm] was a truly alarming affair, a massive storm. There was thunder, lightning, and hailstones 'as big as eggs.' As a lesson was being read by the Archbishop of York, there was a terrific peal of thunder, the Cathedral was struck by lightning, and a cataract of water fell into the aisle."

I thought that was interesting.

Later we can get to EF's ideas on death and immortality, and the marvelous information on the Mapp & Lucia parts of the tapes. Lots more to go yet.

The Tilling Society reports that the "Hitum Titum and Scrub" designations (spelled Hightum Tightum and Scrub in US editions) occurs in Patrick O'Brian's biography of Joseph Banks, the British 18th c naturalist and explorer who accompanied Cook around the world and was a principal founder of Kew Gardens. On page 191, the author says, writing of Banks's devoted sister, ' and when, somewhat later, [Banks] was deeply concerned with sheep, her devotion went as far as the wearing of three dresses made from his [sheep's] wool, dresses called Hightum (for grand occasions) Titum (for occasions not so grand), and Scrub (for ordinary wear).'" Another reference occurs in M.V. Hughes's autobiorgraphy, A London Girl of the 1880's, "It was usual to have three dresses: one for the very best, for parties or any stately affair; one for Sundays; and one for every day. These were known as 'hightum, tightum, and scrub.'"

You can almost hear the Duchess of Windsor, can't you?

Georgie's "white tie" in the series with his long tails shocked me in the afternoon till I realized it was probably at night, the nights in England being light so long. I've been on cruises when "white tie" was supposed to be worn but have never seen one, and so now we KNOW!! about ME!

By the way, what did you make of the phrase, "the cobbler's at home," for the carrying of shoes in a bag to put on for good, replacing rubbers worn TO an event? I don't understand the phrase.

So as we consider VOICE in this book, whose point of view IS the story told from?? IS it Georgie's??

Great stuff, guys, a truly great discussion!

Ginny

So far I've just seen the first segment of the tape. Surprise, surprise, I actually liked Lucia and didn't like Mapp, but I still have a long way to go to see it all. The wonderful Nigel Hawthorne is excellent as Georgie, the creaking bed scene was really funny.

About the "Elizabethan Fete", here's where Lucia shows her stuff by pulling it all together and after the "falling into the water fiasco", finishing it off with great aplomb - at least she got a hand from her audience. Daisy isn't at all as I pictured her from the book, I thought she'd be more like a "Billie Burke" character . . . fluttery duttery and feminine - this lady walks likes a longshoreman.

Usually I have no trouble understanding the english accent but Mapp's speech pattern was rather hard for me to decipher, and the squeaky "little" voice that issues from Lucia put me off a bit too.

Eileen Megan

It's a wonder EF kept his sanity with all that madness (although we put it more kindly today and call it mental illness) in his family! Surprising that he did not write that into any of his characters, although he certainly must have lived through enough scenes. Poor family to be so ill.

Exactly how is the Archbishop of Canterbury chosen and what are his duties in the church? I could look it up, but who knows?

Ginny - he is a handsome man and perhaps that is how they posed for pictures in his day. Stern looking. Can't believe he was though after reading the book! Thanks for putting up all the lovely and interesting pictures! Would just love to go to England and see it all!

Ginny,

What do people say about Stratford. I have not heard anything bad about it. I love it. I absolutely adore Stratford. It has a lot of tourists but is very much a town in its own right. It is so beautiful that it takes your breath when all the flowers are blooming. I spent 10 days there last summer with an Elderhostel. I saw 7 Shakespearean plays on that Elderhostel. I am planning to spend 10 days there this coming summer with the same Elderhostel proividing the plays are different. I have signed up for the Elderhostel but haven't yet found out about the plays.

I know that is off the subject but could not let that "no matter what people say about it" get by without commenting.

I still haven't finished the book. I am struggling to read it as I am bored with it. I am sorry folks but I am.

As for Broadway. I have been through it many times. It is absolutely lovely but then I think Stratford is too.

Joan

Oh Joan, I would love to go with you to see Shakespeare's plays in England! We are having such a grand time with them in Washington. The Shakespearean Theatre just did Twelfth Night, the Folger did Much Ado About Nothing, Kennedy Center did Winter's Tale and now Shakespearean is preparing for King John But it must be magical to see them in Enland!!! Lucky you!

Stephanie, I received the tapes today!!! Poor lucky, unworthy me! I haven't had any time at all to read Lucia, so I haven't been coming in here as often as I planned. I haven't even met Olga yet! BUT I scan through posts, trying not to be influenced by any of your preferences or perceptions. I had to laugh when I saw Ginny admit to being a Daisy. Yes! I recognized her right off! Sandy, is that who you thought Ginny was? What fun!
Now, I have three comments on the tape.

Should I view if if I haven't read much. Should I sit and read first (as opposed to standing and reading)?
Stephanie says she had some trouble with the "tracking"? What shall I do if I have the same trouble? Send it back to Ginny or send them on to the next name?
What name? I don't know the next person on the list. I guess I should at least check out the tape before asking all these questions!

Daisy! Yes! I knew that!

Everytime I look at the question about my living in Riseholme and how would I fill my time I blanche. That is probably why I can talk about the characters as if from a distance and actually laugh - I cannot identify - there are no children. Not only have I been blessed with children but, I have wonderful grands. I have more fun playing with children then I sometimes do socializing with adults. I could not imagine my world without children. In fact when many my age speak of Sun City in Georgetown I shake my head and a depressed feeling goes through me. I need to live in a mixed age range neighborhood where the children next door will climb my tree and sell me their school candy and that I can hire (at exorbitant rates haha) to take in my mail and put back my garbage can when I am out-of-town and that I can take with me for a walk or to the movie.

I must admit these are a very practiced and therefore talented group that live in Riseholme and I do remember when we all took piano lessons because there was no TV and we had at least 3 books going at the same time. One propped over the sink to read while dishes were washed, another in the living room and one we would sneak under the covers when we were supposed to be asleep.

If I was in this childless village I am sure I would feel left out if I wasn't invited to Lucia's soirees. I think it is the out and out competition that we are privileged to know about that bothers me. I do not like to see people put down so that even Olga bothers me. They are powerful ladies and I wish they would use their hutspa to build each other up but, then Benson wouldn't have a story would he. As much as I like George, (I think he is the most develped as a character) his trailing after and pitty patting around the 'doers' drives me up a wall.

I did love the scene where he visits with his sisters after they broke in and he settled down from his frieght.

I am not a whaker of balls so the golf or tennis set wouldn't work for me and you can read just so many books but, sooner or later I would want to chat with someone. I just hope that this is just a slice of those that live in Riseholme and there are a few other families that I could befriend.

Talk about a play on words have you noticed the name of the village? Rise - holme/home.

All in all I am so glad to be living now when the average middle incomed woman can use her energy toward meaningful endeavors rather then be the ornaments of society. It seems to me that a middle incomed woman just before and after 1920 had to be zealous or obsessive in her desire to accomplish something more meaningful. I'm thinking nurses, writers, artists where as teachers, nannies, actresses, shop owners were occupations for woman that had to work.

Hmmmm just dawned on me maybe that is why Olga could be in such control and I sensed condenscending to the goings on in Riseholme, she was the only woman that earned money.

Pat W tells me we've had a crash, and I do see my post of this morning is gone and so is Carol's. If you posted today, please re post, I can tell, now, just a bad feeling, when things are about to crash, so I copied mine and also the heading of the Exchange, too much work to have to do over!

So here it is, not that it's worth anything!!

WOW WOW WOW, posts give one an electric shock coming in here, WOW.

Now, JOAN G, let's start with your post: Stratford, yes, as I said I love it, too, and am actually very reassured to read your post, had begun to think something was wrong with me. Yes, among our friends, yes many pooh pooh Stratford as being over commercialized, too "twee," etc. In fact, I felt quite apologetic the last time I went, as one aquaintance said,"OH if you've been THERE once, that's more than enough."

And of course some of the guidebooks don't help: the Rough Guide, for instance, who are normally dead on in their descriptions, say of Stratford, "Stratford-upon-Avon is an unremarkable market town with a pedigree that's unexceptional but for one little detail...this ordinary little place is nowadays all but smothered by package-tourist hype and tea-shoppe quaintness, representing the worst of 'England-land' heritage marketing."

So with your reassurance as an extremely well traveled person ringing in my ears, I feel confident in my proposed 200 jaunt. Stratford, which I have done well more than once, has TWO outlying fantastic stately homes one can stay in, Welcombe Hotel ( one of England's "great Jacobean country houses" and Ettington Park Hotel "one of the more sumptuous retreats....a Victorian Gothic Mansion." 49 bedrooms from the 12th century).

Both of these I've driven past, both of these my father used to stay in and send postcards home from on business, both of these will be on my 2000 itinerary.

BUT 10 plays in 7 days? WOW. When we were there, the most the Royal Shakespeare Co could do was two different Shakespeare plays in a week, plus, of course, the Swan which was showing Chekov. Didn't get to The Other Place. I love the Royal Shakespeare Theater and its dining room overlooking the water, and will plan a trip there again.

And you don't EVER need to apologize for disliking a book or an author or finding it boring! If it's boring to you it's boring, we need all opinions here, and glad to have them!

Megan, good thoughts on the videos, I'm glad you can see them, I agree with many of your points, too! The videos are moving very fast now and soon we'll, I hope, all have seen them. Yes, Geraldine McEwan's voice, lots of comments coming up there! You ought to hear her AUDIO tapes!!

Joan P: I would, yes, view the videos if you have time, sitting, even though you're not through the book! They are an excellent portrayal of Books IV and up. They're the first way I came to Benson, and without them, I probably would never have heard of him.

Do let me know if you can't SEE them, and if that DOES happen to be the case and the tracking does NOT work for you, then, yes, please mail them back to me. I'll write soon with where to mail them, everyone.

Barbara: Yes, they do seem a practiced group, again, just Benson writing what he knew, he had a life-long ability on the piano, preferred Bach, and like Ella said, how I'd LOVE to have somebody to play duets with!! Now, I could DO that, and enjoy myself immensely, and I do expect there might be a tad of competitiveness there for me, too. I can identify with their struggles in the tape as they play, it's almost, in one part, a race between them to keep up! Love it!

But AGAIN, "Riseholme," what does it mean? Great stuff!! Great!! Now does it mean rise as in get to the top by pushing and home or does it mean rise as in "risible," a word Benson uses over and over, to mean laughable, or does it mean BOTH? What a great point, have never seen it raised!

In the later books we see Lucia consumed with the desire to do good and she does benefit the town immensely, but only after she earns money herself on the stock market!

Again, I had not noted this distinction! Well done. AND I wonder if Lucia's turn about in the later books mirrored society at all as Benson saw it, as he died in 1940, and we know from "Upstairs, Downstairs," there was a LOT of change going on in Edwardian society.

What time period does Jeeves and Wooster cover, anybody know? It seems almost flapperish in the videos?

I mean, talk about effete: here's a MAN? who can't function without his butler??

Carol: you find the characters childlike? Not mature?? What an interesting thought. Sort of a Never Never Land, then, in reality?

Isn't the latest thought tho, that we need to keep the "inner child" alive? Are these inner children flourishing? The only mention of children in the whole series I've ever seen is the one at Folkstone, Mrs. Brocklebank's daughter, and Georgie's "Children are so sticky, especially after tea."

More later on more stuff!

Ginny

After reading a couple of posts, I was reminded of a story told about General Eisenhower or President Eisenhower. This was told by our guide in Gettsburg, PA. on an Elderhostel we attended there. He said that the general never dressed himself - his aide always did that for him - even his underwear the aide would put on!

Now can you picture that? We were flabbergasted!

We purchased a small book about Eisenhower and his farm (we had toured the farm he remodeled and lived in off and on - died there) and one can see in a picture how fussy he must have been. It is one taken shortly after his marriage to Mamie and it says the General never wanted to sit down for fear of losing the crease in his trousers.

The characters in EF's book do not seem to odd after that, do they?

Saw a video on the 1998 Chelsea Flower Show in London, England. Since it was an hour long, they showed a big variety of things in it. One was a man that did 'stitchery' or 'tapestry'. It showed a lot of needlepoint squares (for big pillows?) he had done, each different, most of flowers. He was working quickly and stillfully, and the video did not appear to consider him any different than say, one who did pottery. Shades of Georgie.

As for spare time, I have been told there are wives of liesure in town here who get together every day (weekends excepted, I presume) and go shopping in the better clothing stores. And also that there are some who get together every day and play cards. I guess everyone adjusts to liesure differently.

Ella---Somehow I'm not surprised that Ike didn't dress himself. I know it sounds contradictory that the great General who led the Normandy invasion can't even dress himself. I suspect the powers that be felt his mind should be wholly involved in the battle ahead and not" Where the (expletive deleed) are my cuff links? I've got to meet that Russian general front and center in Berlin and I can't be late". But I am shocked about the crease in his pants and not sitting down. It's carrying the Mili- tary a bit far, don't you think?

Ginny, I didn't mean Benson's characters being like children as a criticism. Au contraire. It was a compliment. If we don't keep the child in us alive and kicking, we'll dry up and crumble into dust .

Recieved the video of Mapp & Lucia and tonight watched a few episodes.I love Lucia She really is a leader and has a genuine affect on everyone. She is not too lazy to stay attractive and practices her various skills in the arts. I love how she knew how the garden should look and expected the gardener to bring it it's full glory just as she knew how a piano should sound. I was so glad to see this contessa does not humiliate her.

George seemed older and more persnickety then my image. Nigel Hawthorne does play the part so well especially in light of the many other parts he has played that were so different then George. That light suit with the short cape held by a chain is just wonderful. He just adores Lucia and although silly they have so much fun together.

The hotel night reminded me of how sounds were thought so embarressing when heard through the thin walls of hotels or even as a house guest.

In the video Mapp seems the schemer where as Lucia's competitive one- up-menship behavior all seems justified to change the behavior of social bores.

I'm sure I have a picture of the shop in Rye that is used as the grocery store. I believe when I was there it was more a general garden hardware type store selling shovels, fertilizer and flats of starter plants.

But, Barbara, don't you find Lucia selfish? I'm talking about the book now not the tapes. The manner in which she stole the Guru away from Daisy (her friend?) merely for what she thought was her own glorifcation is appalling! As I was reading that part, I couldn't help but think if Lucia's a friend. who needs enemies?

Carol Lucia is played so differently in the video then the book. To me Elizabeth Mapp becomes more the characterazations of the book version of Queen Lucia. In the video Ms. Mapp not only has a mean spirited way but, doesn't show the integrety of Lucia. Lucia does play some one-up-menship but, not overtly mean.

My wonder is, are the other books like the video or has the film series taken liberties with the story line.

Carol I am so glad to have seen the video series. I found something uplifting that I did not get from reading Queen Lucia.

Barbara, that's a good question, Lucia of the tapes seems quite different from Lucia of the book. Ginny, can you enlighten us?

Eileen Megan

Megan, well, not really, I mean there's been a lot of conversation over who played the parts and how they played them by the official Tilling Society News but I think we can arrive at our own conclusions. And so we have some of us left who have not seen the videos, so I want, if possible, to hold off a little bit more in deference to them, but this will be a good topic to start with and I'll put it in the heading for us all to think over: Did Lucia change from her portrayal in the book to the one on the tapes?

If you have read more than one of the books, did she change from one book to the next? Does the introduction of the Mapp character provide a nastier foil, which allows Lucia to not be so....well, how DO we see her?

Megan, HOW would you say they are different?

I see a change in the books themselves, having read them all, but I also think you get used to her and don't notice her behavior all that much. I mean if you keep an anaconda and it snaps the heads off turtles, then you aren't surprised when it does it again?? You kind of expect it to snap and you start looking at other things.

You all, OH HECK, let's do a LITTLE discussion of the tapes, and if YOU don't have them yet you will within the week! Tomorrow when it's not threatening to kill me with lightning, I'll put here what BENSON intended Miss Mapp to be, till then how about be thinking of what YOU made of her character in the videos??

The first startling thing I noticed about the tapes is that Lucia flinches when Daisy touches her and the entire thing seems played for laughs, which it does give...now, I personally, find the books very light and cute, but again, I didn't START with Queen Lucia. I started with Mapp & Lucia and went from there. Loved the scene with Georgie and Lucia in the car, "Oh look, a haystack!" hahahahahahaha You can tell if you have the British version or the American: in the British version Georgie takes off his hairpiece in the hotel at night?

But Loma mentioned TAPESTRY! and Georgie's needlework, and I just HAVE to come in here with something I've been saving!! In the September 21 issue of People Magazine, there was a 2 page article on a huge historical tapestry in England, which is now complete, having taken 17 years. The Queen Mother, above, is putting in her stitch, likewise the Queen and Prince Philip put in theirs (the quote there is that "I don't think the Queen is a needlewoman, says Polly Hoskin who led that group and assisted the monarch. Prince Philip, however, needed no help!" "The Queen was rather amused at that, " said Hoskin, "But, you know, he was a naval man. They used to do their own darning in those days."

Interesting, no?

In the later books, Lucia starts a major tapestry, and first conducts little tests to see if the workers are good enough.

In the article, Joan Roncarelli "would give volunteers small squares of canvas and some wool as tests before they were allowed to get their hands on the tapestry."

I simply cannot believe that they did not refer to Benson here as HE wrote all this 50 years ago, to the nth degree. Unreal!~!

Roughly 35,000 Britons added a stitch for posterity, it's about the History of England and was started in Exeter. Roncarelli was "an exacting taskmaster." "Some may say I cracked the whip, but they were all wonderful."

Unbelievable! Life imitating art!!

Ella: now that's interesting, lots of the upper crust, so I have read, Englishmen don't actually dress themselves to this day, wonder if the military adapted that custom??

OK, now, we're coming to the end of the book discussion and about to take up the tale of the videos, have we addressed the characters, voice, plot and anything else you'd like? I'm seeing some thoughts on Lucia's character being more negative than the tapes, and I wonder if you find her negative in print at all?

Larry says two of the clickables above don't work and I did read somewhere that they are changing the sites so let's hope they arise like the Phoenix before we finish!

Ginny

I spent most of last evening reading all the postings from day one here, and I am a bit surprised that you are watching the videos while reading "Queen Lucia", and trying to comment on both, in many cases. I loved Queenie, once I got into it, and am really mystified about the seriousness with which some of us are taking this bit of froth! I was so glad to see Lucia getting her come-uppance, no matter how slight it was sometimes, but I enjoyed her, just the same. Olga is simply delightful, Daisy is that person who we all know, the perpetual second-banana type, and Georgie is more fun than any neighbor I ever had...male or female. I could spend all day watching the antics of this group, preferrably out of my own window in Riseholme.

You remember me...I'm the one who giggled most of the way thru "Angela's Ashes". I enjoy the books I read...or I don't bother with them!

Love...Katie

GINNY...great story about the tapestry! I would love to see it. And I am definitely going to read more of the books...all of them, I hope! I have the tapes, but have only watched the first one, so far. I have the second laid out, ready to go, and will look for any character changes that have been mentioned. Interesting!

Love...Katie

Been away for a few days and whew... to catch up.. Do agree that I felt that Lucia in the tapes is more attractive in manner, etc. Mapp was more a villain.. Well mostly a busy body, but still unpleasant. Georgia was wondorful in both books and tapes. However I am not sure that he would be an easy friend.

You know, looking at the photo above, I do see what you are talking about, and I also think you all are very intelligent as Benson himself did introduce Mapp with less than greatness in mind.

Here's what he said, "I had seen the ladies of Rye doing their shopping in the High Street every morning, carrying large market baskets, and bumping into each other in narrow doorways, and talking in a very animated manner...I vaguely began to meditate on some design. I outlined an elderly atrocious spinster and established her in Lamb House. She should be the centre of social life, abhorred and dominant, and she should sit like a great spider behind the curtains of the Garden Room, spying on her friends, and I knew that her name must be Elizabeth Mapp. Rye should furnish the topography so that no one who kew Rye could possibly be in doubt where the scene was laid."

In the filming of the series, the producer especially expressed the idea that "the intention was to avoid camping it up," and it will be interesting to see if you think they did or not.

This is an interesting vignette, I think: the actor Dirk Bogarde, upon seeing the series for the first time, remarked, "It quite destroyed my own particular delight in the works...I have forgotten the 'real 'Mapp and Lucia almost totally." The Tilling Society News further comments that perhaps Bogarde's "love of the books was too recent and fragile and his own images were not strong enough to withstand the over powering television characterisations. In the summer of 1986 he had written: 'I do know E.D. Benson and regret very sincerely that I am not a Fan! A terrible thing to admit: but I detest 'funny' books...' However, in November 1986, we were delighted to reveive a card from him in Paris to say that, in response to our relpy to theat letter "I bought all E.F. Benson in paperback and am hooked! You were right--I just had to persevere--and it's fun to have Lucia and Mapp to keep one cheerful in a stange land."

So, Katie, I hope you do get the rest of the books, because, since we are no longer at the outset of our discussion, I feel free to say I love the books and the little incidents of the plots spring up daily like little flowers for a laugh, just like that tapestry did yesterday. I think they're fun, and it reminds me for some reason of The Andy Griffith Show (sorry, but it does) which I also loved.

The New York Times remarked on the first showing of the tapes, that they were "Positively delicious...one of those splendidly attractive period productions that are a hallmark of British television..." The reviewer found the "costumes exquisite, the cast outstanding, and his only criticism was that occasionally the humor is allowed to get "unnecessarily broad and the story itself begins to flag by the time it reaches the final episode." This is in direct contrast to the British opinion that the series started out weakly and got stronger and stronger. I agree with the NY Times, how about YOU??

Here's a bit on the Pierrot in the Book Plate, more tomorrow:

"The E.F. Benson bookplate depicts not simply the figure of a pierrot with a quill pen leaping lightly over the world (representing perhaps the triumph of comic writing)...It is a quite specific illustration of the French folk-song or nursery rhyme: 'Au clair de la lune/ Mon ami Pierrot/ Prete-moi ta plume/ Pour ecrire un mot...' (By the light of the moon/ My friend Pierrot/ Lend me your pen/ To write a word....)" Not sure about the moon part there? Anyway, that's from the 89-91 Newsletters.

I first saw the Lucia tapes on PBS? I had never heard of EF Benson and was struck dumb by Geraldine McEwan's voice! It irritated me to death, it was just SOOOOOOOOOOOO, the whole thing, and she especially was just sooooooooooooooo, and then I got hooked and turned into the MOST rabid fan, well not the worst, I'm still not as bad as some.

Now, with the tapes we have an entire new cast of supporting characters, whom shall we discuss first??

Who was the worst portrayed in the series??

We must do something quite different to conclude this discussion. Any ideas?? Ginny

Ginny, many thanks for all the pictures and information you have brought us on this book. We have found an author, a bit about his body of work, his background, a unique English village, as well as characters we realize we may know.

When I first read the stories, it was the paperbooks. For some reason I cannot find them now (too many boxes of books and well as shelves). And I do not really like the big book "Make Way for Lucia"! It is too big. A little awkward to hold, and much too big and heavy to read in bed! Also the page headings do not name each particular book, and I like to know just where I am.

Peppino had to know, maybe not nearly as clearly as Georgie, what Lucia was like. But she never neglected him. And he certainly welcomed her back from London, at the beginning of the story.

How many servants did these households have, anyway? Daisy had a 'pretty housemaid', a 'neat parlormaid', a cook, and a parttime gardener. Georgie had Foljambe who was both a servant and the one who sort of ran the place, a cook, and Dickie the chauffer. Maybe Dickie was yard man etc, as Georgie didn't seem to use the car much. It's sort of funny that he wanted a driver, but when his 2 sisters came, they liked to do the driving. And someone had a 'footman'. But these characters, except for Foljambe, were much in the background. So were the tradesmen. Otherwise the curious folk would have managed to get information from the postmaster about the supposed letters to Daisy from Princess Popoffski. That way of life, of economics, is no more.

I had forgotten the question re what E>F> thought about people. From reading this book alone I should say that he did. He delighted in human foibles and mischievously writing about them. I also thought Lucia was the most skillfully draw character. If the author had not written the beginning scene, letting us get into Lucia's mind, the book would have been unfathomable. I was going over the beginning again, got to the pear trick she and Georgie were playing on each other and burst out laughing all over again. This has been a fun book!

I've really been enjoying reading all of the posts in here. I just phoned the library and found that I only have to wait for two more people now on the list and then I'll get my copy!! )

I'd love to be added, Ginny, to the list of the folks seeing the tapes!

Pat

I liked Lucia of the tapes as opposed to Mapp whose attempts at riding roughshod over Lucia: popping in whenever she chose, not letting Lucia enjoy the fruits of her garden, the miserable piano etc. Watching Lucia, a steel butterfly if there ever was one, very cleverly thwart Mapp at every turn was a delight.

Eileen Megan

I never thought of Mapp as a sympathetic character, although I certainly do Daisy. I do like Ireney. She is a definite type and I have certainly seen her before. Used to play Field hockey in high school and college and we had a team full of her..

Correction: Upon reading my above post, I see that I did not answer the question of what EF thought about people. I think he did like people very much. Carol

Ginny, if I haven't said so before I have enjoyed the pictures you have posted above very much. It's an added attraction to have them and an idea of the villages and individual houses of EF's country and his times.

This was a very different book for me to read and I cannot come to a definite no or yes as to whether I enjoyed it; however, I did enjoy the films very much and can understand how popular they must be in England, as so many of our sitcoms have become familiar and loved by us in the past. Although I'm not sure if I can say that about our present sitcoms. Since I have had cable for about 2 years my TV habits have changed and I watch the C-Spans, A&E, History, etc. and hardly ever watch a sitcom.

I loved the costumes in the films, the acting was superb I thought. I wonder what EF would have thought of the videos? Would he have approved?

The posts by all have been fun and enlightening to read and I'm happy I was a part of the discussion.

Yes, I always leave this discussion to the last and I'm actually sorry we're in the last weeks. I hate to leave the town of Tilling -on -Sea, even if it IS imaginary. I wonder how imaginary the characters really ARE?

Pat, I'm delighted to add your name to the list, and even tho we have 21 people now viewing the tapes, which is surely an excellent number for any book club anywhere, 22 faithful people to the end, we all should have them by the end of the week.

So I think we can now begin to discuss TILLING and leave behind, like Lucia did, the beautiful town of Riseholme ("laughing home??") for Rye.

I've put up an illustration of the "Any News" idea of the morning's parliament on the green, and also a map of (in case you ever go to Rye) the Rye sites with their Tilling counterparts.

I was quite surprised by Geraldine McEwan's appearance in this film, I had remembered her as OLD!!!! She's NOT old by any shot: I wish I had her throat!

In one of the later books, Lucia turns 50, and when she does, her conscience pricks her and she begins a lifetime of good works, investing in stocks, running for office, and generally being "on the boil." The books are a hoot.

Her hair is the wrong color in the videos, but other than that, what did you think of her portrayal, if you saw the videos? If you didn't, keep this questions in mind for when your tapes arrive.

So for today: What did you think of the character of Lucia in the film?

Does Geraldine McEwan do a good job or did you have another idea of the character?

Is her voice or performance "over the top?"

Which one do you like better, Mapp or Lucia in the videos? Is this different from the book?

Which one do you think more carefully reflects EF Benson's idea of his fellow man? The book or the videos?

Do you think Fred Benson would have approved of the videos?

Ginny

Ella, I'm so glad you have been enjoying the illustrations as I've some WOW ones coming up in the next few days that you can't see anywhere else on the Internet and that's a promise!

We're NOT through, just starting our critiques of the videos. Almost every course I had in literary criticism included lots of media, if available: I well remember East of Eden the book and film, the James Dean performance. We even went to plays when available, and I think it's perfectly honorable, in fact, desirable, that we include in our literary experience a look at the film presentation of it.

I also think it's a BOFFO way to start out our first book discussion of our last year of the current Millennium! Our Countdown to the New Milennium here in our SeniorNet Book Groups!

More on that later.

Ella, I love your second line, by the way!~! Good for you!!

So please observe the new questions today for TODAY, and on the videos and do jump right in!! We're awaiting your comments and insights!

Ginny

BOFFO? YES, INDEED! SOUNDS JOLLY, WHATEVER!! (from one buffoon to another, eh?)

Ella, if you are a buffoon I'm honored to be in your company, I've edited both my posts please go back for the areas which mention you!

Well, hey, we're in good company, ol Fred had a Pierrot for a bookplate, I'd like his company any time.

There's a lot to be said, I think, for the enjoyment of life and a good sense of humor.

Ginny

laughing Home can you hear me laughing all the way to South Carolina. What a hoot, I love it!

Finished the book and tape #1. (Ginny, where do I send it --- to Marge or to Jeryn? I thought Marge was to get them after me, but the list above says Jeryn. )
Loved both, although they seem different for more than one reason. The obvious one is that Queen Lucia is a different story from Mapp and Lucia, with different characters for Lucia to interact with. I think Olga was a major catalyst in the book, one leading Georgie to observe, finally, that there was a side of Lucia's character that had lain undeveloped, like a photograph negative, which now (toward end of book) was beginning -- unfortunately -- to appear. He refers to her critical attitude, a bitterness not evident before she had experienced the put-downs, for want to a better phrase, which Olga's presence seems to have caused. Olga's own lampooning of other characters has none of the malice Lucia shows in the last section of the book. Benson has created a very positive, entertaining character in her. (Does she show up in other videos?)
Benson's characters seem a little darker than in the acted version. At first I thought, "No, too cartooney . . . this isn't what he meant." I thought it all a bit "over the top," as you suggest in the question, Ginny, but as the video went on, I laughed more and finally loved it. From the scene in the two bedrooms after the bar scene until the conclusion I had a wonderful time! I loved the way Lucia makes sure that Georgie is comfortable in their friendship when he feels so uncomfortable about people knowing they are unwed and travelling together. I actually like her better than Lucia in the book. She seems warmer than the book version. I also love the way she steps in (without pushing too hard!) and takes over the fete and the Elizabeth role. Poor Daisy (also a fine actress).

I didn't like Mapp at all, but we weren't supposed to??? I think the book shows Benson's idea of human nature more clearly, but if he had a deep and non-egocentric sense of humor, he would have loved the videos anyway! The first one, I know, is wonderful fun!

For me I just loved the Lucia of the Video - She knows what is - she organizes others and herself. You get the impression she barely ever nibbles or is it grazing that it's called and Lucia enjoys her meals (who else do we see eating alone) that appear to be healthy as well as, served beautifully; she 'skips'; she reads her paper; practices her piano so that she and George can play together - when they need to recover from an experience - when they need to celebrate - or when they just want to experience the joy of it; she keeps her painting up; dresses not only beautifully but impeccably; puts complete trust in her help that they will do their job well as well as, goes to bat for them if needed; takes deliberate care with her corrispondance and it appears pays her bills in a timely fashion. Annndd, has the longest and most graceful neck I've seen other then a ballet dancer, she walks and carries herself as a ballet dancer. All her movements have a florash or a control of elegance. Over the top but, oh how dreamy.

OAHHhh I'm enchanted and have vowed to eat only during meals, do my Nordic Track every day and start to practice the piano again after all these years. Perfect solution for me to express my victories and losses in life rather then feeling at loose ends, and either shopping, eating or napping.

"Sorry, no such emulations from the characters in the book" said with the sighing forbearance of George.

Quai Hai, All!! hahahahah,

JO: Yes, please send to Marge, write Marge, as Jeryn said she'd like to be last so she can get moved in.

Yes, I loved the "undeveloped negative" image in the book, and I do think the two are different. Since the films were made only a few years ago and Benson died 50 years ago, the producer had the entire series to draw from as far as the characters went, and so probably produced a more composite Lucia, and as you say, the books are different.

I must confess now that we are about to leave Tilling, I'm having regrets and dragging my feet. And I do want to see it again in person. It's a town that time forgot.

I don't agree that you have to be knocked over by serious purpose in order to have something going on, just read last night where Stephen King outlined the object of literary criticism, and ended up stating the "story is all." Want to get that quote in here today, if I can.

It's the story, the little bits and pieces of plot which keep coming back to me at odd moments and making me laugh, and I do think the videos are well done. Of course the Bensonites sniffed that they were too "over the top," will put some of their remarks here later, but it's odd, isn't it, when people might think this light or perhaps just a frothy dessert, that there's so much serious, nay, fanatical interest in these 6 books...and there IS!

So it's a grand way to start out our Countdown to the New Millennium in the Books and certainly HIGH MIRTH, as our Fearless Leader of the GB keeps saying!

Barbara: Yes, she's got it together, doesn't she? I wish I had her self confidence. You do need a tough skin and plenty of self confidence to take on the world, alone, as she does in Books IV on....

Of course, she does live an insulated life, but she DOES venture out, in Book II, to London and takes on THE social scene, Duchesses, the whole nine yards. And we go with her and marvel at her nerve.

If you've read Book II, the Party Scene where she goes deliberately to Olga's party with NO invitation is a stunner, and EFB himself got his invitations mixed up (not on purpose) and was the only non Royal at a party in London, and they were too polite to tell him so. Life, my life, anyway, is FULL of such gaffes, (tho not with Royalty), I guess you can laugh or just sit in the corner and brood.

Benson, in the midst of his turbulent life, his physical disability and his overwhelming constant worry of his family, chose to laugh. I find him delightful. He could have sat in the corner and whined.

Poor man had quite a smoking habit and died of lung cancer.

Consider this, too, in the character of Mapp: you (Lucia) move to a new town and the "Hanging Committe" asks you for a work of art for their exhibition. You and your friend agree. But the "Hanging Committee" (Mapp alone) doesn't like your submission and rejects them. Now, that's nasty. That's evil. I don't see anywhere in the book or the videos where Lucia does anything to equal that, do you??

I have some marvelous illustrations of views from the tower, the tower keeper, the "Quarter Boys" of St. Mary's and the surrounding countryside coming up!

Stay tuned.

PS: Just read where the rabid Tilling Society had placed in the window of the Bookstore a great display of photos from the filming of the videos when Prunella Scales (Miss Mapp) followed by a sheepish Dennis Lil (Major Benjy) plunged into the store and told them photos could only be displayed by the permission of the actors and plunged out. You have to KNOW the Tilling Society members and their seriousness to realize how they took this. hahahahahah

Benson would have loved it, am sure of that.

On Miss Mapp, in the books she collects Pottery Piggies (Piggy Banks) which are still made in Rye. The original Rye pig was a "combined jug and mug whose head came off. The Rye Pottery still makes a small version (on sale at Rye Tiles in Wish Ward, and gift shops such as Merry Thought by the church, along with the piggy banks).

The verse by Benson:

I won't be druv
Though I am willing,
Good Morning, my love,
Said the Pig of Tilling.


is similar to the Traditional Sussex Verse:

And you can pook
And you can shove
But a Sussex pig
He won't be druv.
"--Tilling Society

I hate that the Benson Sites are down, we probably beat them to death! hahahahaha

On the question above about Geraldine McEwan: I'm not sure she fits my preconceived idea of Queen Lucia, but having SEEN her in the part, I don't think I could accept anybody else. Her voice threw me, thought it was THE most awful camp. IN fact, the "camp" is what kept dragging me back till I got hooked. Of course, I like Monty Python, especially his "Holy Grail." Now, my husband, after I had raved endlessly over The Holy Grail movie, sat thru about 5 seconds of it, when King Arthur rides up on the non existant horses, said that was the "stupidest thing he ever saw" and left the room! hahahahahahaaa

It's how YOU look at life? And so we revert, however listlessly, back to Jackie's opening salvo (Jackie is having computer trouble, hope she'll be back soon)....has anybody done a psychological study of why we prefer which character? (not worded well, sorry, it's in the heading).

If you like Olga best, what does that say about you? Do any of us like Miss Mapp?? That smile. Those teeth. HOW Prunella Scales did that amazes me.

Ginny

 
I loved Lucia, both in the book and the video... She was very focused on her goals... Not necessarily the goals I would choose, but once she set out to do something, look out.  She ruled her subjects with a loving  but firm hand, directing them in entertaining and sometimes educational endeavors.

But I was really fascinated with Mapp... How she must have 'studied" how to go about getting everyone's 'goat."
You must admit, she worked at it...  (I wished I had read about Mapp before.. It would have explained a lot of the 'hassle' I experienced from my MIL.)

In order for Lucia to occasionally be kept in line, there had to be an Olga. But that didn't seem to deter Lucia's bouncing back, more determined than before with better strategy for ruling her small kingdom.

I do believe I'll have to go see the actual locale... I went to Greece after The Odyssey, and China after reading a book about the Dalia Lama.

Thanks Ginny, for the nice discussion, great background material, picures, and links.  I have Make Way for Lucia, and will have it handy to read snatches when I need a good chuckle.

I was contacted by Jo, and have sent her my address. Thanks, all.

Sorry, Ginny, I couldn't take "Holy Grail" either. Guess I have a deficient sense of humor.

Marge

Ginny, Oh I love it.. Lucia and the Holy Grail. I adore Monty Python and even saw a teeny part of the dead parrott routine on Today yesterday. Lucia on TV was quite different than I had envisioned. I liked her, but regarded the actress as too too attractive and younger than I would have guessed. The voice is grating to me however. I am one of those humans who love voices ( Married a radio announcer) and that voice is just too too for me. The video is so beautiful. The village is like a dream. I grew up in a small town, but it sure wasnt that pretty. Howver I do remember my mother and her friends acting a bit like Lucia, etc. They kept accurate track of where everyone was and what they did and had all sorts of entertainments like the art show.

I am looking forward to getting the tapes and comparing the story and characters with the book, and the scenes with what we have in the heading here.

I definitely Know a Lucia & Pepino in real life (very strong but very subtle), also a Lucia & Georgie (fairly obvious to all who are associated with them), and it will be interesting how these things are portrayed in the tapes.

Smiled at the Keeper with his blanket over his knees and his coin box there - wonder what he thinks about all day. Does he sit there every day or just in the summer when the tourists come?

Ginny, can you put all the characters' names in the video up in the heading. We all know Lucia, Georgie, Mapp and Benjy - and Daisey, but can't remember the names of the others?

Received your email, but I'm just not clever enough to "come as" anybody - may pop in though to listen to others. I'll applaud all who come.

I think we should keep in mind (well, I did anyway) that Mapp was THE HEAD of the Tilling society until Lucia came and took over. And she did a very thorough job of taking over, didn't she? Mapp's house, her position, her friends. Mapp was mean at times (refusing Lucia's and Georgie's art work), but I know people like her that sometimes just have to get back at people for hurting them. Lucia was mean, too, in a more subtle way - not sharing her recipes and stealing guests from Mapp and, and - can't remember all the incidents but I remember thinking Lucia was nasty at times. Didn't some of you?

Agreed, Ella, Lucia was not always above-board. She was more subtle. And she learned (sometimes) from her own mistakes. Both she and Mapp had need to dominate, to control. But their characters were different, and they went at it differently.

I wonder if Benson didn't start out sort of as a vent for characteristics that bugged him, or amused him, then as a writer he rounded it out. And writers have declared that sometimes the characters then take on a life of their own. Benson wanted to be remembered for his more serious books. But after his last Lucia book where she became Mayor of Tilling, he talked to Nancy Mitford and said "What must she do now?"

Funny, I didn't think Lucia of the tapes as mean at all. Mapp tried to ride over her roughshod and she wasn't going to take it lying down. She was much nicer than Mapp in that she didn't expose Mapp when Mapp turned down their paintings after asking them to contribute! I mentioned in a previous post that Lucia was an "iron butterfly", . . . . ..getting her way but nicely, she was precisely my cup of tea . .

Eileen Megan

I know perfectly well when I left this afternoon there was a list of the Mapp & Lucia characters above, but I just had to put it back!

Then I added the characters from the book Queen Lucia which were not in the videos.

I'm surprised at several things: that's not many characters for a film, or did I leave out some?

That's a lot of characters for a small book, or, again, whom did I leave out? What was Olga's husband's Georgie's last name??

I'm going to leave the Tower Guard up one more day but replace the top photo in a sec. The Guard is there, so I'm told, winter and summer. The day that was taken it was over 85 degrees and everyone was dripping sweat, could hardly hold on to the camera, and there he was! AND he picked up another blanket, too.

I'm ready to go to Rye, let's go this summer, whoever wants to, It's an easy ride by train from London.

Ginny

OK, I'm back and the new photo is up top, and it shows Mallards at the very top of the right white spire! So it's hard to see how the church tower could over look Mapp's garden? It does over look the Rectory, will put that one up tomorrow with the bells.

Ella: there are several "guards," and as far as I know they are there in winter and summer, the next one of us who goes there, ask him! He's quite the celebrity, told me he had appeared in a book, even.

Pat W: A mother in law like Mapp??? hahahahah Was she a Leo?? It's a silly thing, but Mapp and Lucia are BOTH Leos! hahahahahah I liked your point about needing Olga to keep her in line occasionally. When you think about it, in all the other books she's always taking on something or somebody, just spends her life crashing against people and things and leavingt them trembling in her wake. Book II is a hoot about her and the Duchesses and a lot more on Olga.

Marge: Oops! Now I am ESPECIALLY going to be interested in YOUR opinion of the videos! Try to watch them thru, you may have the same first reaction I did.

Stephanie: Married a RADIO ANNOUNCER? No kidding!! Boy that must be nice to listen to. I've always wondered this: do they sound like that all the time or can they put more on if necessary? Kind of deepen it up and draw it out? Or is that the way they always sound??

I love a nice voice, not having one myself.

Now your remark on the Art Show really hit home as the last time I was in the neighboring Battle (town near Rye where you have to change trains to see Bodiam) they were having an....guess what???? ART SHOW!! in the Church Hall and it was just like the videos with the watercolors, and the exhibition and the whole thing. The ladies were awfully nice, tho.

Ella: that's a good point, that WAS Mapp's village, her home and her house!! I must admit a twinge there when she lost her house, but she camped it up so much you didn't hurt too badly.

You raise a good point! WHO acted first?? Who did the first dirty deed? Who is the agressor and who the defender?

Apparently it was the custom in Tilling to share recipes but you remember Lucia, "A little of this and a little of that," and she wouldn't tell.

Loma: Did you think that Mapp did NOT learn from her mistakes? I think we can see Lucia backing off and thinking and going forward again, but I wonder if we see that in Mapp?

I think I agree with you about Benson's venting a little at the beginning about some of the foibles he found amusing. I've forgotten but will look up the name he called his scrapbook of funny things. It's a good way to expose things, but I don't see malice in it, myself.

Megan: that's true, Lucia did not expose Mapp when she could have, I wonder if Mapp would have done the same. But Lucia saved the receipt in case she should need it later and indeed....I think she did produce it or something very like, as she held something over Mapp's head later on, but it backfired on her.

And really I do wonder how different these two ladies are in their struggle for dominance and the people we know? I swear when I read these books, it seems that I see Lucias and Mapps and their struggles all around me. Seems like a lot of one upmanship. It may just be a perspective and it's heightened by reading about it.

But lately it's all I see! hahahahahhaa

Ginny

Eileen's "iron butterfly" haha. One of the Lucias I knew well would sometimes come up against another iron butterfly. Haha. Neither would back down. Each said the other was so stubborn!

Lucia learned from some of her mistakes, but did she ever learn to admit she only knew a few words of Italian, to protect herself from possible future embarrassment? no-o-o.

That's RIGHT! She didn't, she kept right on with the Italian, even to the end of the series, but I do believe she pulled it in a bit. What a hoot.

I think that's why I sympathized with the odious Mapp at the end. Lucia sort of annoyed me in the books, especially towards the end of the series. I did feel sorry for her, but poor Mapp just crashed into people as she went and then practically died in frustration as she never seemed to get her way. I remember in the videos, doesn't she chew a note from Lucia? hahahaaha, that's how she felt all along, I bet.

It was a war of the mind, a chess game and Mapp, despite having always lived in Tilling, was outclassed, yet Fred always threw in a leavening for Lucia, too, usually in the form of a Princess or Duchess or celebrity or two.

Reminding us, of course, that no matter HOW high our own particular star rises, there's always somebody bigger.

Or better.

Now if Fred knew that 50 years ago why is it news to some of our aquaintences?

And you notice that when Lucia was thwarted, she simply threatened to go away? To leave? And I thought it a hoot in Queen Lucia where Georgie mused that perhaps he wouldn't be quite so eager to beg her to stay since Olga had come! hahahahahhaaa

I can't remember if Lucia did any of that threatening when she moved into the vicinity of Mapp?

Also when Olga first came to town, Lucia told her the equivalent of "we don't do romps here," and remember that Mapp said the equivalent of "we don't do late dinners here." That was their way of fighting off the threat.

Why DID Lulcia let Mapp get by with her rejection of the "pickies" do you think? She and Georgie were both mortified.

Ginny

I would personally LOVE to have a Georgie and wish I knew one!

Ginny

The pictures that have been posted have certainly added to this story. We seem to have ties in the heart with much in England.

Here are some descriptions of Tilling from the book Mapp and Lucia:

"Its narrow streets abounded in red-brick houses with tiled roofs, that shouted Queen Anne and George I in Lucia's enraptured ears, and made Georgie's fingers itch for his sketching tools." "...the light of the late sunset glowing on Georgian fronts in the town and on the levels of the surrounding country, quite irresistible."   Georgian refers to the main architectural style during the reign of four Georges, George I (1714-1727) to George IV 1813. It is classical, and was also used quite a bit in houses and buildings on our Atlantic seaboard. Queen Anne came just before George I, 1702-1714.

"In another street there stood Elizabethan cottages of brick and timber, very picturesque, but of no interest to those who were at home in Riseholme." Queen Elizabeth ruled much earlier, 1533-1603. This was the Shakespearian age, explaining Lucia's home in Riseholme. Centuries and centuries of living were here, but still a part of the present.

"Reclaimed marsh-land to the west" , "a great gray Norman tower keeping watch seaward, an Edwardian gate with drum towers looking out landward" , "a belvedere platform built out on the steep slope to the east of the town" , and "a lighthouse winking in the distance". Now the Normans came in the year 1066, ruled till 1154. What does the Edwardian gate refer to? Edward I came to the throne in 1272, Edward VII in 1901, so there are lots of Edwards. I suspect an English reader would know right away. 'Belvedere' is for viewing. What is a drum tower?

The cobblestone streets, some rather steep; "the cobbles, the grass and dandelions growing in between them". One of the photos showed a cobblestone street, and it is easy to see why the residents had such a hard time jockying their cars around, especially when meeting another.

This background is a small part of the story. And probably all readily understood by the English readers, but in the U.S. for me at least it takes some pulling together. I wonder how much of all this remains there. In the U.S. it would probably have been torn down, regraded till it was unrecognizable, and rebuilt until there was nothing charming or historical left. No wonder we enjoy going to England or Europe.

Our first impression of Mallards shows the contrast with Lucia's Elizebethan home in Riseholm. "There were charming little panelled parlours with big windows letting in a flood of air and sunshine .... There was a broad staircase with shallow treads, .... plain well shaped rooms. It all looked so white and comfortable,.... so different from the Hurst with its small latticed windows, its steep irregular stairs, its single steps, up or down, at the threshold of every room. People of the age of Anne seemed to have a much better idea of domestic convenience...." I could have read this book six times and never really noted all this, but for our expanded discussion here.

Loma, Thanks so much for pulling together the history, architecture, etc. It makes the whole story more meaningful.
Marge

Loma, that was great. I don't know, maybe somebody here does, I thought Edwardian referred to the style around ....1908 or so, but am not sure. It preceeds, I think, Victorian style, Edward....no wait, wasn't Bertie Victoria's son? Getting confused here, somebody help?

Anyway the only gate I know of is the one pictured above, the Land Gate.

But I do have illustrations of the marshes you mention! Will show tomorrow, very interesting, Rye was one of the original Cinque Ports, but was cut off from the sea in the 1600s when the port silted up, and is now 2 miles from the sea. Marvelous photo looking out over it and one of the Elizabethan buildings, too!

The famous bells are on your way UP the tower, a rickety climb and I understand it's very important to pay attention to the bell ringing schedule: I have a friend who made the climb and nearly had a heart attack, no fooling, when they suddenly started to ring. They are bigger than you are and you are standing directly on next to and on TOP of them and it's deafening. The poor soul was terrified, not dreaming they actually rung. I was terrified the whole time I went up for fear they would start, you get, as I recall, quite a way up before you see the sechedule. An adventure, by any account.

Found something interesting: apparently Berkeley has the EF Benson papers!! There was quite a fuss about them some years back and the Bodelian Library had aquired them, but one of the Societies fretted that they would go to the highest bidder and "probably end up in America." Apparently they did just that!~I can't find the URL, but there are precious few URLs now on Benson since they've taken all the Benson Society sites down and it's one of them.

Ginny

It's not too hard to know what Fred Benson would have thought of American admirers, however, in a letter to Professor Getchell in 1931, in response to a fan letter from the first Benson appreciation group, Benson wrote:

"I am very much touched by the most kind message that you and your group have sent to me. Please let me assure you and them that there is nothing that an author values more than a spontaneous expression of this sort.We are supposed to be an irritable race, but none of us is so peevish as not to appreciate so kindly a symbol of sympathy. I still hope to do muc better than I have hitherto done, and it is a real encouragement to find that a 'group' of strangers has suddenly become a group of friends who will judge my work with an eye that is ready to perceive any possible merit therein, and (I hope) to be amiably blind to its manifest shortcomings. Please convey this message of greeting to them, and believe me Yours very sincerely E.F. Benson"

Boy, I wish he were alive!

That letter reminds me quite a bit of the one we received from Bernard Lefkowitz, and I'll put it in the Library when we get it scanned.

Ginny

Ginny, Well there is a certain amount of enhancement when they are on the air, but the velvet deep stays.. He has not been in radio for 35 years and the voice is still like velvet and interestingly enough both of our sons have the same sort of tone.. That was the thing that surprised me. Lucia.. I still like her, but still consider her extremely manipulative. Actually my mother was a good deal like Lucia.. right down to the Georgie..

Benson's papers are in Berkley? Evidently the highest bidder? Had never thought abut universities bidding for papers. What is the Bodelian Library?

E.F. Benson wrote a nice letter to the fan club; it certainly is a good expression of thoughts.

The tape has come and I have seen about half of it -- three episodes taking maybe a bit over 2 hours. It is the first half of Mapp and Lucia which I think is the 4th of the 6 books. It starts with Lucia wearing black as Pepino's widow. Daisy Quantock is trying to act as Queen Elizabeth in an Elizabethan fete to be held on the village green at Riseholme. Soon Lucia sees the house for lease ad by Elizabeth Mapp on Mallards in Tilling, and the fat is in the fire.

This is one of the books I do have, and so I notice things that are changed a bit, or left out. On the whole the story line follows quite closely, but some details change. Lucia comes across less manipulative than in the book. Somehow on the screen she looks a bit like a siamese cat -- don't know why.

The actors must have had fun developing their characters. The scenes, the dresses, the furniture!, everything is interesting to watch. The video is interesting after the book but I would not enjoy the video as much without the more rounded-out book.

I agree, Loma, the books are more detailed. One of the funniest things is left out of the books, where Lucia is pretending to read Peppino's latest poetry volume, (I may have said this before) which was done up in ribbons, so she snataches it up to pretend to read, but the ribbons have become knotted and she can't GET it open so she pulls and tugs at it and finally gives up and puts it down as if she's meditating on it, just a hoot!

Georgie was thought to be over done, particularly in the latest series of tapes, which we are not circulating. It was also felt the ladies of the town had too much make up on as everybody knows they didn't wear makeup until OLGA appeared in Tilling and then tried to copy her with hilarious results in a later book.

Stephanie, my husband and both sons have deep voices, too, and they are very pleasant to hear, tho not of announcer quality. Too bad none of them are interested in singing; they'd be great basso profundos.

The Bodleian LIbrary,for those of us who can spell (not me) is one of the Libraries of Oxford University, neat clickable here:

Bodleian Library

It also has a huge map room, the seventh largest in the world. In later books Lucia is always going up to the Bodleian Cartulary (sp) and reasearching history. Will see if I can get more info on the papers in Berkeley.

Ginny

I just went to our Bookstore above and there is NO review or rating there of Queen Lucia and I propose we write one! Let's take some of our own comments already written and sum them up? Anybody game? We'll use our composite ratings which we'll give later, and cobble together a review, any volunteers? It will be our first joint SeniorNet Book Club Online review, though we've been lucky in our personal reviewers in the past, I know Ros has written several great ones!

Ginny

I am SUCH a dope! Have spent days looking thru clickables to find the Benson Papers Clickable only this morning to have BENSON PAPERS shining up at me, for that's what I titled it on ClipMate and here it is:


duh!


Benson Papers in CA

It's possible, of course, that these are NOT the same papers, as there are a lot of them in American libraries. Ginny

The Bodleian site says their Library is the largest of Oxford's. The Old Library is being renovated. Some of their rare books and manuscripts are on microfilm. Did they have the Benson papers and then sell them for funding? Lucia studying at Oxford did not keep them there.

I thought the very best part of acting in the video was where Daisy was trying to walk up to the ship deck as Queen Elizabeth. Did you notice when Elizabeth and Diva were putting up the garden produce, they took the empty glasses out of the oven? - is that how they sterilised them?? I loved it when the artists sat smack in the street when painting pictures.

Those hats! Some seeming to quite cover the eyes! Everybody wore them. No wonder the first impression of Quaint Irene included her being hatless.

Our church once put on a style show of clothes through the ages. We had 3 'flapper' dresses to model. Of course it was the prettier ones that were saved. But they looked surprisingly attractive on.

The story Mapp and Lucia in this video took place in 1930 -- so maybe the flapper style would soon be over. The first book Queen Lucia was 10 years earlier, in 1920 when Lucia was 40 and Georgie 45, and it was before short skirts and shingled hair.

News Flash!!



Barbara St. Aubrey was recognized last month month as Top Agent in her office of over 30 Real Estate Agents, in both number of sales and volume of sale dollars. This is considered quite an accomplishment, since it is a very successful office with many that earn in commissions 6 figure incomes.

She was feted at a lunchon, recieved a $50 gift certificate to Barnes and Noble as well as another $50 to her favorite bakery/coffee house. Her picture was not only in the weekly magazine that all 6,000 area agents receive but also, in the newspaper, and she has received congratulatory notes from everyone, to which we in the Books want to add our own heartfelt praise!! Congratulations, Barbara~!!

Ginny

My word - Ginny I cannot beleive you did this - Thank you, It is very exciting and I am having so much fun with it all. Total surprise to me and just shows me again, when you are working at taking care of peoples needs the dollars take care of themselves.

Plug - anyone knowing anyone moving to Austin I will be glad to help them find the best house for them in the perfect neighborhood that fits their lifestyle.

Congratulations Barbara. Certainly an honor.

Larry

Barbara, that is wonderful, we are so proud of you! Congratulations!!

Loma, I didn't give the glasses a thought! hahahahah, That's how I do mine, first in the dishwasher to get hot then I keep them hot in the oven. Sometimes I get them TOO hot and they sort of keep the jelly even hotter, I loved the scenes with her "bottling."

My favorite scene in the videos? It's hard to pick one. I thought the supporting cast were very strong. I like the scenes after the supposed "death" of Mapp & Lucia, where the Major and Georgie have their inheritances. 80,000 pounds is a lot of money by today's standards, loved the scene in the stone mason's yard where Georgie was picking out a memorial, the lettering which is too small, just a hoot.

And of course I was unfamiliar with the term "cenotaph" but the last time I was in London, there was a huge one,and famous, tho I can't remember to whom, now, in the middle of the street, and I was sort of proud to know WHAT, in fact, it was called, thanks to the Lucia books.

My favorite delivery of a line in the videos is the lawyer's, telling Georgie about the will, "But here, a difficulty arises," he says, mentioning the bills owed to the staff, I love the way he says "harises," reminds me of the "Edward and Mrs. Simpson" series where they said the same thing to Edward.

Also Major Benjy's line about "Too true,too." concerning the other poor corpse. Laugh right out loud.

The videos lose a lot from the books and just take on the outward bits of the characters, the richness of the writing of the last few books is lost, but once you've seen the videos, they are branded forever as the characters, at least to me. Geraldine McEwan's performance is so strong it overwhelms. And of course, Prunella Scales as Mapp could not be bested, I don't think.

I like them all, thought the Countess too fat, but she DID look like Mr. Wyse! hahahahaha

Ginny

E. F. Benson would probably have enjoyed the videos but mourned the fact that only some outward bits of the characters are shown, so many nuances lost. One impression I got was that Elizabeth was too posturing, Georgie to fluttery/whatever, Irene too adoring. But there is one line in the book (which I didn't mark and can't find again) that seems to support Georgie that way, and also, Irene could be interpreted that way.

The video seems to leave out that both Riseholme and Tilling had times when they were fed up with Lucia's ways. How tarsome as Georgie might say. I like the way he would use that term. Maybe my favorite, though the way they would say "No!" is a close second. Not to mention Quai Hai and Au Resevoir.

Hi, All,
Just watched Episode 1, The Village Fete. What a delight! I thoroughly enjoyed it. Think Geraldine McEwan does a pretty good job portraying Lucia. Got a kick out of Quaint Irene! Now there's a gal I can relate to! BTW, regarding the list of characters at top of this page, Daisy Quantock does appear in Episode 1. Attempting to play Queen Bess, remember? How many total tapes are there? I have received only the one so far.

Loma..You are so right. A Siamese cat is exactly what she looks like and I dont know why either. It has been driving me crazy as to what she resembled.. Glad you thought of it. The garden arguements are more prolonged in the book than the TV. Can you imagine just popping in.. That period was much too formal for that. I would have locked Mapp out as well. Once had a neighbor who did it and drove me nuts.

Marge you'll be getting four more tapes! Just received them yesterday, started to watch. I'll try to get them in the mail asap. Help me out, viewers and readers: who is Quaint Irene? Can't place her. I have only one book; maybe I need to search out others to compare/contrast character interpretation.
I loved Daisy's struggle in the Queen Elizabeth scene.
I, too, would have locked Mapp out, as Lucia did. It's hard to understand her behavior in crashing in on her tenant, especially as she (like all of the characters, especially Lucia) thinks of herself as very grand and dignified.

Marge, you are absolutely right! Daisy IS the Queen and I just remembered another character: Mr. Beresford: (God Bless the King!) hahahahah Too bad we can't act it out. We could do our own tableaux.

It's with a great sense of sadness that I begin the last week of our discussion here, and I hope you have found something to enjoy in your journey with Lucia in these books and tapes.

In her book What to Read for reading groups, Dr. Mickey Pearlman states, "Ban at the outset any discussion that focuses on, 'Did you like the book?' this is not a popularity contest, and any worthwhile piece of fiction, no matter how beloved or detested, teaches the reader something. The real issue is the choice of what to read."

Can you say you have learned anything from this book??

I hope to get to Barnes & Noble tomorrow to try to scan a few lines of the Pressman which has been nominated and which they say is just fabulous.

Jo: Quaint Irene is the artist who does not appear until Book IV when Lucia moves to Tilling. I thought she was a bit over the top, especially with that "angel!" business, sort of strange?

I believe there had been talk of a movie of the series and Fred Benson was said to be extrememly interested.

For some reason I'm always reluctant to leave Tilling, I really don't know why. The Brian Master's biography of Benson ends with the statement, "if the ghost of this utterly modest man might find some pleasure in his posthumous renoun, it would derive from the knowledge that those who read Mapp and Lucia or As We Were do so again and again."

I hope if you have enjoyed the first book you'll try the other 5 and the two sequels, the books are exquisitely written and contain some memorable moments.

And it is true that aficionados reread them over and over just like Benson himself emulated the Cicero of his classical studies and reread the classics for relaxation. He read the Greeks, but also enjoyed Wuthering Heights and Emma .

Some books seem like old friends, a delight to read and reread.

Ginny

To the question, what did you learn in this book. An interesting setting, heightened appreciation of what is in England. An interesting author. Characters that can still be found in some people. And as many books we like, a bit of an escape.

The last picture of Rye in our heading, that shows the steep street and the timbered house with latticed windows -- that would be Elizabethan wouldn't it? The style that Lucia and Georgie weren't so interested in, since they came from Riseholme where Lucia had the most Elizabethan of the houses there. In Riseholme she had even replaced the window panes with more old fashioned ones which were wavier glass and let in less light. And like the Emperor with his New Clothes, she got told -- by Lady A.?? -- that it was too dark in her house.

A cenotaph is described as an empty tomb or a monument erected in honor of a person or persons buried elsewhere. The famous Lutyens who designed the British Embassy in Washington D.C. also designed World War I memorials, including the Whitehall Cenotaph in London 1919. Another definition of cenotaph is "built to honor soldiers who died in a war." Ahaha. In the video didn't Georgie talk with Lucia several times about Elizabeth and ask is this now WAR? Haha

Quai Hai!!

Quai hai, I say!

Where is everybody?

Am off to the links to practice my golf swing, will return at Noon Eastern Time and invite you all to a small tea at Mallards, bridge to follow. Special Mystery Guest. Tableaux.

Hightum

This has been a fun discussion..  But I still like Mapp, to watch her antics that is.  The charscters are so famailar and the descriptions of the communties fit today.  It's just the houses look different.

I think I like Queen Lucia the best of all the books, but still have the last 2 to finish.

I'll return to Lucia at a later time when I need a break form studying for Magic Mountain, which seems to be much deeper than I anticipated in the first 50 pages.

Thanks for the introduction to Lucia.  I would hate to have missed it.

Look for me later:  I'll try to find the party.

Pat / IL

P.S. I hope this will be archived so I can reread the discussion.

I do hope that when I return later, I'll be able to find more for the party. This is the place?

And what is the schedule? And where is Lucia to tell us where we are to stand? and what we are to say? And it is awfully dark in here. Maybe when the sun's up I'll be able to see the rest of the party guests

Quai Hai!!

The other poor corpse is lost at sea! Am off to the wine cellar for some particularly fine Chateau Lafitte for the Party, this is the place, go ahead out to the Garden Room and make yourselves at home!

Too true too

In order to see if your posts have been answered, you'll need to go somewhere else on the RoundTables and come back in.....meanwhile for instant answering, come to the Book Nook Garden Room and Chat!

Going to find a Chilt a Peg,

Mystery Guest # 1

hahaha Talk about giving a party and nobody came, poor ol Major Benjy waited in vain in the Garden Room and missed every single person who came by but two and the last of those he couldn't answer!!

Personally, I think it serves him right for having a "Houswarming over the poor dead corpse!"

Ginny

Mapp here... Sorry I'm so late.. It looks like everyone has left. Do you suppose they are all over at Lucia's and I haven't been asked. I think I'll just stop around and pretend I don't know anything about her party. That was a mean thing for Lucia to do when Ginny had planned so much.. Don't fret Ginny, I'll give her give her some of my thoughts in direct fashion.

Mapp

C'mon Ginny, don't cry!

Dear Major Benjy, With deep regreat I was unable to attend your gathering in the Garden Room. Please forgive my unfortunate absence today. I look forward to our continued friendship and would be delighted to share a drink with you in Chicago along with all our friends from Tilling. Sincere felicitations...

Ginny it is unimaginable to me that anyone in Tilling would admit to 'not know how' to accomplish anything but, I wonder how many of us either did not know how to use the chat room or did not feel comfortable talking from a 'Benson' character's point of view.

Are there really more then the 1 tape for us to see? I am in love with the Lucia of the tapes and would truley love to see more of her. Oh and Georgie and Quaint Irene I really loved them all. Have not been able to locate any other books in the series. Loma and Ginny did you order them or just happen across them?

MAPP! hahahaha, yes they're all over at Lucia's she's doing tableaux! Maybe she'll invite you in after dinner, I always thought that was rude!

I think it's funny! hahhahahahah

Barbara: we'll have to get in practice for our Third Books Party as it's a masked ball and you come in costume, we'll practice a lot till then, it's loads of fun, you come as your favorite character in Literature.

I bought my books when they were in single volumes? They are falling apart now. They are available in one large volume, all of the books by Benson, not the two sequels and an additional short story by Benson on Mapp.

The book is called, Make Way for Lucia let me go see if it's in our Bookstore.

Major Benjy, as an officer and a gentleman, does sincerely apologize to those whom he was too slow to speak to and WHO LEFT following Lady Ambermere out the front door. It's SO Tillingesque! hahahahahaha

Ginny

Look at this, this is incredible, I put in Make Way for Lucia in our Bookstore above and got:





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Here are your search results for Title is Make Way for Lucia

We found 10 matching titles. 1 - 10 are displayed below in alphabetical order.

Lucia in London: Part III: Make Way for Lucia Benson, E.F.

Format: Paperback Associated Dealer: William J. Leach, Jr. Houston, TX Our Price: $14.56 More info on this book

Condition: Very Good Trade Paperback. Format: Paperback Associated Dealer: greenapplebooks.com San Francisco, CA Our Price: $12.00 More info on this book

Condition: VG. Binding is PB. Format: Paperback Associated Dealer: Gutenberg Holdings New Hampton, NY Our Price: $7.00 More info on this book

Lucia in London (Make Way for Lucia, Part II) Benson, E. F.

Condition: Softcover. Multiple copies available. Good/VG condition with small mark onedge. Format: Hardcover / Dust Jacket Associated Dealer: BookCloseOuts.com Lewiston, NY Our Price: $8.98 More info on this book

MAKE WAY FOR LUCIA. Benson, E.

Condition: Hardbound Book cover stains, soiled, pages foxing, soiled/DJ see notes 912, Owner's name. Tears, chipped, soiled. Price clipped. Format: Hardcover / Dust Jacket Associated Dealer: BRANT'S USED BOOKS SARASOTA, FL Our Price: $39.75 More info on this book

Make Way For Lucia III: Miss Mapp Benson, E.F.

Condition: Little rubbed peeled creased Else NrVg. Binding is Paperback. Format: Paperback Associated Dealer: Gutenberg Holdings New Hampton, NY Our Price: $8.00 More info on this book

Miss Mapp - Make Way for lucia, Part 3 Benson, E. F.

Condition: Paperback 328 pp. Very good. No jacket. Format: Paperback Associated Dealer: Harvest Book Company Fort Washington, PA Our Price: $29.93 More info on this book

Miss Mapp - part III. make way for Lucia Benson, E. F.

Condition: Mass Mkt Paper Very good. Mild edge/cornerwear. Very slight soil spot to lower edge. Associated Dealer: Books Galore DeSoto, MO Our Price: $18.00 More info on this book

Condition: MM PAPERBACK GOOD TO VERY GOOD BX646, PAGE YELLOWING Format: Paperback Associated Dealer: Webster Village Used Book Store Webster, NY Our Price: $10.00 More info on this book

Condition: MM PAPERBACK GOOD TO VERY GOOD BX646, PAGE YELLOWING Format: Paperback Associated Dealer: Webster Village Used Book Store Webster, NY Our Price: $10.00 More info on this book

Trouble for Lucia Benson, E.F.

Condition: 1969 HARDBACK English edition.The book is in FINE condition, unmarked and unread by any previous owner.Dustajcket is price-clipped, has wear to spotsalong the edges, is in VG condition and has a nice appearance in the clearplastic protection(Brodart wrapper). Format: Hardcover / Dust Jacket Associated Dealer: John Draper Books Arlington, VA Our Price: $98.00

They have a used book search!

Ginny

Now I called the local B&N and they said they did NOT have one in stock but the one they had and would order is paperback and $30, and it's the one with all the books in one volume.

So you don't need a used one, there are new ones out there.

Ginny

All day has been impossibly slow for me on SeniorNet, operating about 2%. It is finally better just now, only taking several minutes for a page to load, but that's still pretty bad. I'm not familiar with Chat but sorry not to be able go to the Party.

I have 3 of the old used paperbacks, thought I also had a full set but can't find them. The Make Way For Lucia book is quite large, guess I prefer smaller books.

In the picture in the heading of Queen Mary's visit in 1935, does a man bow to the Queen? Maybe Benson already has. Her visit must have been quite an honor. Did the books mention antique stores in the town? I never noticed. The characters in the book really did not seem to spend much extra money or do much shopping other than the daily groceries.

Mystery Guest? Oh dear,oh dear, oh dear. I will NEVER hear the last of being late at her party! But it's all the fault of this new stickum stuff. How was I supposed to know if you don't get it right in three minutes, it stays like cement for twenty-four hours! I've got my hair on my face and my mask on top of my head. I can see through my window that the party's going full throttle. I can't go like this! I was just experimenting and I didn't see anything in the instructions about this being cement. What'll I do? Well. I know one thing I won't do. I'll never try anything new again as long as I live!

I'll never try anything new
again as long as I live!

But then Carol, you'd miss all the fun of doing the things that Ginny thinks up for us to do.

WHAT A party sensation that would have been! The Woman in the Iron Mask!! Carol, too delicious, YOU are our new Daisy! Uric Acid, Increase Your Height and the MASK of IRON! hahahahahah

Oh too much, RIGHT RIGHT Benson is dated! hahahahahahahahahaaaaa

How perfectly marvelous!

If my email is anything to relate, we'd have had a crowd but nobody can get in.

Here is a great chance to give us in the books a little feedback.

Please conduct this experiment tomorrow, not today, you're already loaded, and come back in here:

1. How long does it take for the main B&L to load on your browser? 2. How long does it take for the Lucia to load? 3. How much RAM are you using?

I find the main B&L takes a while to load and there was some strange al something loading this am which does not belong, and it's not the ad at the top that's adforce.

So let us know so we can do something if we need to.

Loma: I wondered about that, wondered at the protocol, he's, you'll notice, with a cane and the severe crippling arthritis so he couldn't bound to the bottom of the stairs. He didn't OPEN the door I don't think, I do have another account of that, will go get it and bring it back in here. I don't know how you'd manage that. I guess you'd bow and then again, my contact with Royalty is non existant, but Benson had known her for 50 years. He also had her to tea that afternoon and of course the entire episode reappeared hilariously in one of the later books when the Queen comes to Tilling and expresses a desire to see the most important things in town and Lucia of course appoints self as the arbiter and everyone courts favor with her over their homes or things and it is a TOTAL HOOT what happens! A HOOT!!

Going off to find the account of the visit from Charlie Tomlin, Benson's manservant. I believe it was a surprise visit.

Ginny

A visit from the Queen is in the Lucia books? I missed that. In the last (6th) book Trouble For Lucia there is Poppy, the Dutchess, who has Lucia struggling to save face.

This book also has them all - except Elizabeth who thinks it is undignified - taking up bicycling. And listen to this: As the days grew longer and the weather warmer, picnic parties were arranged to points of interest within easy distance--a castle, a church or a Martello tower--and they ate sandwiches and drank from their thermos flasks in ruined dungeons or on tombstones or by the edge of a moat. Ginny, did you know that when you posted the photos of the castle and moat??

You asked about time to load. I timed how long it took to go to Previous Msg here. It took 5 minutes and 22 seconds! So it is going to be another of those days. (It will be that way for any discussion, not just Books & Literature ones.) And here it is fairly early in the morning. I had a bad spell of this for over a month last fall, but since them it has been much much better till now.

5 minutes to load? Copy your posts, Everybody, we may be heading for another crash!

GAGS

Oh, was sosorry to miss the party, but just not around last night. I am not having that much trouble loading today, but sometimes it is impossible. I have all of Lucia and reread it periodically. Takes me to a time that is long lost and somehow gentler.

First off, I am having no trouble getting around. Thins are fine with me. I was off all morning because my electricity was off. I have a few slow times sometime but not often. I tjust isn't slow for me today.

My computer is 400mghz with 124 megs of ram.

Loma I received the tape yesterday and watched alot of it yesterday but today have nto had time to watch any because of the electricity being off all morning. I am thoroughly enjoying the tape. It is absolutely hilarious. It has even made me start reading Queen Lucia again. I think I will finish it after all.

Joan

Don't you think the actors had a lot of fun with their characters when they made their tapes?

Sorry about my last post -- I didn't get the italics ended after the word 'moat'. It just would not load again after I had posted the message so I'm just reading it now. I only have 266 mghz and 65 RAM but there must be more reason than that for the last 2 days. Oh well, as long as it isn't 5-6 weeks like last fall.

It is amusing how their morning greeting to each other was something like 'Any news?', and usually they could dredge up SOMEthing!

It took me 4 and 1/2 minutes to load this page from the B&L Index page... I called my ISP and they checked it out with their direct line and it isn't my computer ... It's SeniorNet ... I don't have the patience or time to be this frustrated...

In fact when I tried to post this at 7:12 PST I got a message that SN was not accepting entry.

And then it took 10 minutes for me to edit this message.

Well I will repeat here that it is strange that it is Seniornet when I am not having any trouble. I am moving normally. I don't know what it is but I don't think it is as simple as saying it is SeniorNet when some people are not having trouble . I don't doubt that all of you are having trouble. I believe you. I am also telling the truth. I am not having any trouble.

Loma, yes I do think that the actors had a wonderful time with their characters. That is what makes for a good performance. I am thoroughly enjoying those performances.

There was always news because they were always watching each other to get news.

Joan

In the newest picture in the heading, the strange gateway in the fence where the walking path crosses it - I think it was designed to keep cows and other livestock from using it. People could, but the animals couldn't negotiate the bend. And no gate to forget to close. It looks like it would also keep bicycles and motorcycles out. Wasn't there once when Lucia and Georgie were walking that they went on a stile over a hedge, but a stile is steps.

Lucia, especially in Queen Lucia, loved the Elizabethan age (as demonstrated in her house in Riseholme) which was also the age of Shakespeare (her Perdita's garden out front, and acting out parts of his plays). How she would have loved the recent Golden Globes awards! "Elizabeth" got the Best Actress-Drama.   "Shakespeare In Love" got the Best Picture-Comedy; Best Actress-Musical or Comedy; and Best Screenplay.   Can't you see her getting a group to go to see the two shows, murmuring about how great Elizabeth and Shakespeare were. Then afterward, on the shows' departures from the facts, how would she have handled that?? Just by changing the subject?

I have not had any trouble loading. Things always get slower in the afternoon, but nothing dramatic.
Marge

I appreciate all the comments on loading, some are having troubles and some aren't. Joan G, that's a monster machine you've got there! I'm so glad you're enjoying the tapes!

Well, we're almost at the end, I'm sorry so many are having problems getting in as they have reported.

Loma: I've got a little vignette here of Benson's visit with the Queen told my Charlie Tomlin, his manservant.

You asked if I knew about the castles and moats when I posted the photos? Yes and no. Yes I had read that passage in the book, but forgot it!! hahahah, Every time I read it I go off on a flight of fancy about how we used to meet in the early evenings in a different and simpler time, we children, and ride our bikes to places, it was such fun and adventure. And I always go off on a tangent thinking about a place where Adults would meet and schedule excursions to a nearby castle, etc. There are so many things to see in that area, the whole place is rich...what a life? There are a lot worse things one could do than cycle off to a moat for lunch.

Charlie Tomlin, Benson's manservant related the Queen's visit: "In 1935 Queen Mary was staying in Eastbourne with King George V who was convalescing. Queen Mary was going the round of the antique shops and sent for Mr. Benson to accompany her. She visited Gassons in Lion Street and what was then Delves opppisote. She bought something in Gassons and indeed they still have her secretary's request for a bill. Mr. Benson asked her back to Lamb House which she accepted. He rushed back saying, 'The Queen's coming, the Queen's coming,' for the household was in no way prepared." In fact Charlie was on his way out to play golf. " I had on a light blue jumper and I opened the door to her. I saw her give one sort of sideways glance, I expect she wondered who I was. And then she came in and walked through to the Garden Room and had a chat."

It's sweet, isn't it, how every detail is remembered.

Vote Tomorrow on our March Book in the Nominations for March folder!



The illustration today is of a garden party at Lamb House, the date is unknown, but you can see they were pretty splendid affairs, doesn't look like much seating?

Ginny

The photo of the garden party at Lamb House (Mallards) shows quite a large lawn. Then there were the flower borders, fruit trees, the pleached allee, the secluded vegetable or kitchen garden, and the 'secret garden'? Quite a bit of ground, really.

What fun to see the setting of a book!

According to the schedule above today and tomorrow are when we post our ratings and reviews of Queen Lucia ! I had almost forgotten the date, do post your rating here on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best and 1 being the pits and give us your opinion today and tomorrow!

Only three more photos in the series and the last will have a personal touch.

Ginny

I am usually disappointed when a book is turned into a movie but, this is one time when after seeing Mapp and Lucia I was more disposed to the book. On it's own I would have given the book only about a 5 or 6. Now with different pictures in my head I will give the book an 8 and the video a 10. I will look for the other books, the story is light and fun just as is most harmless gossip. All this jockying to be on top is typicaly not my favorite adventure to read. That jockying seemed to me to be the better part of Queen Lucia were as, other aspects of the story became clear in the video.

Ginny thanks again for bringing this book alive with your many clickables, photoes and your generosity sharing your tapes.

I rate QUEEN LUCIA a 10. I really had fun with this book in spite of, or maybe BECAUSE of my dislike of Lucia herself. Georgie, Daisy, Olga became great friends of mine. They were so well drawn; througout my life I have met and become friends with so many people who had their traits in various forms and feel lucky that way. Also, Benson, himself, will give me pleasure as I picture him hunched over plotting the characters and their escapades with glee. Yes, definitely a 10.

I would agree with Barbara in saying that seeing the videos really helped to flesh out the main characters. I would give Queen Lucia a 7. I did enjoy reading it although felt these were very shallow characters but were probably the result of their time in history and economic standing. However, it was obvious from the video that Miss Mapp didn't have a lot of money since she was selling produce from her garden and tried to scam the realtor as to the rent she was getting from Lucia.

I also want to thank Ginny for all of the work and effort she has put into this discussion. The resource material has just been excellent and has added a lot to the discussion. I think most of us let her down with the mystery sign-in day and later chat, know that I did anyway, but her efforts were still appreciated.

Larry

I rate "Queen Lucia" as a 7, Olga was the most likeable character in the book. I must say I enjoyed the "Lucia" of the videos much more, so the videos get a 10 from me. I don't know anyone in "real" life that could pull off a coup like that but it was fun to watch Lucia take Mapp down a peg or two or three, which she richly deserved!

Eileen Megan

I'll rate the book 9.5. Not as a "Great book" but as a favorite readable book. Fitting for its time and setting. Characters have characteristics I recognise, some only too well.

Thanks, Ginny, for bringing in the extra information, too!

I liked Queen Lucia. And I liked watching Mapp and Lucia skirmish for position on the video.  I've read through Make Way for Lucia, and I think I'll have to look for the companion books.

I'm not a good critic.  I read mostly for fun and escape.  I'm not into studying style, content, or whatever you're supposed to rate a book, but I'll give Lucia a 10 since I know I'll go back and read it again.

I give Queen Lucia an 8. I hope to read the other books sometime. Loved Olga, but see how Mapp was chosen as Lucia's foil for the videos. Olga was delightful, funny, but too secure, not really interested in a skirmish with Lucia for the upper hand, as Mapp was. The videos were great, the last two masterful... I held my breath at the wedding feast when everyone was tasting the lobster! Laughed a lot, especially at the two facial expressions at the very end. Thanks, Ginny and Sandy for all the mailing work.

I will give the book a 5, readable as something different. However, from the very start I loved the videos - the characters, settings, the costumes, - and they would rate a 10.

I remember best the scenes in the video where Georgie and Benjy thought Mapp and Lucia were gone forever and were already spending their money. And then the ladies came home after an absence of several months, being rescued by a fishing trawler. Now that was funny, about the only time I got a good laugh out of either the book or the videos.

Ginny - I loved looking at all the visuals you have put up and thanks for that! It was a different experience for me and we all need that at times.

I LOVED the video and coming in here each day to read your excellemt posts. Ginny, thanks for all the visuals, etc. that added so much. T

To be perfectly honest, I just got the book from the library this week. They only had a copy of Queen Lucia--I hope to read it this weekend. The video was just a delight--Thanks for making it available!!

I'm so glad that so many enjoyed their first exposure to Lucia, whether in the books or the tapes or both.

I guess it's obvious I'm a real enthusiast, and the whole thing for me has been a labor of love from start to finish.

Nonetheless, in comparison with the sequels which are better, and even the two Tom Holt sequels, I know this is not his best book, so it's hard for me to rate it.

Benson would get a 10+ from me for creating this charming place and these memorable characters. Benson chose deliberately to address things he found lacking in society in a humorous vein, so that by making fun of them we might see ourselves.

Jackie asked at the outset if there were any psychological studies done on those who "prefer" Lucia to Mapp? Have you noticed that none of us prefer Lucia? WE don't identify with her even when people say, O YOU are Lucia or Mapp? I think that says something "psychological" right there, and I don't think a real Lucia would admire nor tolerate another one.

Benson called his folder of scraps of interesting details The Book of Fearful Joy . He was an interesting and complex man, despite his more self important and serious brother's opinion of him.

I hope to get the last two photos in here, we have terrible storms forcast and I may have to put in the last two later, but I think they are fascinating.

I have to give Queen Lucia an 8 because I KNOW Benson has better books in the series following. I have to give you all a 10 as you've been splendid, and I've enjoyed this one immensely.

Ginny

I loved the whole Lucia series and would give them as a group a 10. Queen is not my favorite by any means,, probably a 7. But oh I have loved this discussion. Ginny has been perfomring way beyond anything I expected. Copngratulations for a job done with charm, panache and work.. Find another book that is this universal and I will participate.

Well, thank you so much , Stephanie and all of you, it's been a joy! Just one more photo, tomorrow, and it's got quite a history behind it, as does this one.

Since the Garden Room was destroyed by bombs in WWII, this is one of the few photographs of it extant. Please notice the huge bookcases on the left of the room and it's not hard to see where Fred got his idea, in one of the later books of Miss Mapp hoarding food! I don't know if this bookcase swung out or not like the one in the book did, but it's fun to look at.

Ginny

I'll give Queen an 8.5. The videos just arrived, and I'm eager to see them. Also, Benson goeso on my list of authors, so the other books will be read someday. This discussion will be archived, right? I'll want to refer to it as I continue to read about this bunch. This has been a treat!

Jackie, yes, it will be put in our Archives and I agree, I've loved every moment of it.

The illustration today in the heading shows "Ron" the Cab Driver of Rye, at the Grave Site of E.F. Benson.

This is a charming, and true story about the magical town of Rye: on our first visit to Rye, my friend Sandy and I attempted to pay a visit to the grave of E.F. Benson, and take some flowers. Unfortunately, no florist was to be seen, and neither was the grave. Having hired a cab we did get to the cemetery, an old sprawling place, of ancient and striking stones, with no idea where he might lie. And so we all three spread out, and combed the cemetery for almost an hour with no result, when Ron the Driver, concerned on our behalf that the fare was running up (tho the cabs were standing in line with nothing to do at the station) called his Dispatcher to ask if anyone there might know the location of the grave. The Dispatcher didn't, but thought her grandmother might, and so she called her, but while waiting to get in touch with her grandmother, she called Cynthia Reavell, owner of the Martello Bookstore, author of a biography on Benson, and head of THE Tilling Society. I seem to remember a neighbor had to be called to reach the grandmother, Mrs. Reavell pronounced herself ready to stay at the store until she heard back what help we needed, and the grandmother, contacted by the neighbor, sent the cryptic response: that it was "by the Monkey Puzzle Tree." The phone lines of "Tilling" were burning up with these extraordinary attempts to help, and we finally found the humble marker. In the photograph, Ron, probably wondering what on earth was going on, regards the stone.

The search took us into the afternoon, and we were out of time and wanted to at least VIEW Camber Castle, so Ron just drove us there! Over the walking path, opening and closing gates and gates through herds and herds of what looked like thousands of sheep, have never seen so many. He warned us to be on the lookout for old Col. *** who, when seeing cars on the national footpath, would attack with his cane, and pointed out the strange huts used by the shepherds, which are called locally, "Lookerers." Ron's father had been a "Lookerer." And so it went, a magic place with magic people, lookerers, and a Cab Driver who volunteered, since I was out of film, to take some photos of Camber and mail them to me at home, if I'd like, and whose one desire in life was to view the Grand Canyon.

Definitely an experience to savor, and so are the books and videos for me.

And before I totally forget: the question was asked some time ago about rue in Perdita's Garden and the origin of the term "you'll rue the day."

The book Shakespeare's Flowers contains two references to rue (I bet Joan P knows more), by Ophelia in Hamlet "There's rue for you; and here's dome for me;
we may call it herb of grace o' Sundays. O
you must wear your rue with a difference." Hamlet, Act IV, Sc. 5

Gardener: "How did she fall at ear; here in this place
I'll set a bank of rue, sour herb of grace:
Rue, even for Ruth, here shortly shall be seen,
In the remembrance of a weeping queen.
Richard III, Sc.4.

The book then says, "Rue: (Ruta graveolens)

The familiar expression 'you'll rue the day' finds its origin in this strongly aromatic, bitter tasting herb. In Eilzabethan times, repentance was associated with bitterness; rue was used as a symbolic expression of that association. A religious belief held by country folk at that time stated that grace and forgiveness followed repentance. Thus rue became known by a second name--'the herb of grace o' Sundays.' Rue is a legendary plant, also known as the plant of virtue. In Lithuania and Poland, rue and myrtle sprigs were pinned on the bridal gown, around its hem, and in the bridal veil and bodice. In these countries, rue was the symbol of virginity."

And with that we bring our discussion to a close, our Pat Westerdale will compile our Ratings here tomorrow: still time to get yours in, and we'll leave it here for a few more days for additional comments.

Daisy

Ginny - that was a fascinating story and prompts me to want to go to England - I just must go one of these days. There is, according to a family history we have, a Castle Conaway (my mother's family were Conaways, spelled Conway at times, all sorts of ways) there, but without going back into that old worn yellowed document I have stored somewhere, I'm not sure where it is.

Am wondering if Sandy was as enamored of Benson and Rye as you were or was she just a good friend accompanying you in your wanderings?

How much did that cab driver charge you for a full day of traveling?

Ginny, your story of the cab driver and looking for Benson's grave is quite a tale, as funny/eccentric/humerous/wry as anything he wrote about.

But here again, it is something we can relate to. Ask the teenager working at the ice cream store on the highway of a little tiny town, where the only thing the town is noted for, and you get a blank stare. Worse than that, we asked a college student whose home was Canton, Ohio what the city had, and the answer was "Nothing much, really", but we found it had the Football Hall of Fame, a good Antique Car Museum, President McKinley's Tomb an imposing edifice on a striking hill, and The First Ladies' Library. Sorta like the townspeople of Rye.

I keep pondering about the weeping ash tree which Mapp liked and Lucia didn't. While Benson may have hated it he did not cut it down. Yet I kinda had the impression that he didn't like Mapp much.

What else was bombed in WW II besides the garden room?

All things aside, to sum it up in a few words:   It's been a hoot!

This has surely been a great discussion and the extra material presented has made it so enjoyable... I'm not into studying "deep" subjects, so this has been just the kind of book I like to read.

Thanks, Ginny.

If you have looked at the ratings, you know that they rank from a 5 to 10.  But when I averaged them

Queen Lucia
Rated 8

There were two 10's for the tapes and several words of praise for Benson and his other books in this series.

But it was a fun time and we owe Ginny for her great background material.

Well aren't you all kind?

Ella, you MUST go! I believe I have actually heard of that castle? We stayed in a castle near the Scottish border. Just think, YOUR castle may have guests!! Wouldn't that be a hoot?

I don't think Sandy was as big a fan, but she's seen the tapes and is reading the book now: she's just a good friend.

Loma, I don't really know what else was bombed? It would be interesting to find out. You are right about people not being very "boosterish" of the little known treasures of their town, and the British, I read somewhere, are so modest or something, they don't push things we'd die over. You really can't walk 1/2 mile around Rye and not stumble on something fascinating.

In Carlisle, there are so many treasures you can't get far, either. There's a museum with lots of Roman artifacts and you can donate to the museum by choosing the Roman side or the British side, and depending on which side you choose to put your pence in, the statue over the box glows with his eyes red for me, as I had to do the Roman side. Then there's an excavation of Roman ruins right outside the museum door (my English friend muttered, "now, only 1/2 hour, Ginny"!!)....it's a paradise, everywhere the eye falls falls on some great thing.

Ella, after you finish exploring the Eternal City you MUST do England!

Pat, thanks so much for tabulating the votes and for your kind thoughts!

It HAS been a hoot, hasn't it?

Ginny

WEll, Mapp, thank you so much, have you prepared any of Mama's bottling for me as a surprise? How about your Lobster a la Risholme recipe, which I fear you have not got quite right?

hahahhaahhaaa

Listen, admirers of the Lucia tapes will be interested to know that Georgie (or Nigel Hawthorne) will be appearing in King Lear in a production of the Royal Shakespeare Company and will be in Stratford for the production in 2000. Hawthorne, tho 70, is famous for never missing a curtain, as well as his "Madness of King George" portrayal and his "Yes Minister" movies.

The play will begin in October of 1999, I JUST missed him the last time I went to England, he was in America for the Oscars, and I plan to somehow get to see him this time, if he and I both make it that far!

Ginny

I loved Georgie! I assume you mean Stratford-on-Avon, Ginny??? Not the Canadian theatre? Let me guess: Nigel Hawthorne is playing Lear's fool! No matter, I'd go to see him in any part!

JO, love your photos, by the way, and put one up yesterday as well, think that's the second one, one later today.

Yes, I am also assuming England.

I don't know what he'll play, I would expect Lear?? I would pay to see him read the phone book!!!

Ginny

I sent my address to Jackie as requested but it appears from the list above that I am much further down the list; I can hardly wait to see these much-discussed tapes! I've been sufficiently intrigued with Lucia to drag home [it's heavy!] Make Way for Lucia from the local library and begin reading the next one in the series--Lucia in London. I don't really like her, mind you; it's all the other characters. Hahaha.

Has the discussion here officially ended while I was moving [sob!]??? Did you all discuss the tapes already too?

Jeryn, yes it did end but it's still open, as many had not viewed the tapes when it ended so anytime you want to say anything about the books or the tapes say on, and we'll answer!

We had, at one point, 4 sets of tapes circulating, one husband taped over the first half of one and that left three (sounds like a Nursery rhyme) and so the tapes you have are circulating up from the bottom and I do believe that Betty and Pat S are the last, and I had already told somebody to send theirs to Pat S, who has the other set now??

Lucia is timeless, if anybody wants to start Lucia in London we can have a go, too!

Ginny

Is it in Lucia in London where we first see the word 'Luciaphile' in the book?

Loma... I've read far enough that I can safely answer "yes" to your question. I'll not give away more detail in case you want to read the book yourself.

So sorry to see this gathering coming to an end... I've noticed that some just don't seem to understand that I have had certain responsibilties here and have done my best to keep every one stirred up and in motion...

Now Lucia has been quite a problem for me and I had hoped that she would see her way clear to be my friend, but she just doesn't want to be anything except the "Queen Bee." And I not about to let her take over my territory. After all I was here long before she showed up. I don't why I ever let rent my house. It has been more trouble than it was worth..

Wish I could see those tapes of which you speak. They proably don't do me justice. I know they don't show the loving, caring side of my personality.

Cheers to Ginny, Jo (who liked me not at all), Jeryn, Pat W, Pat S, Joan, Larry, Stephanie, Carol, Eileen (didn't like me either), Barbara, Jackie, Ella, and Betty.

Sorry I missed Loma.

Thanks for your attention.

MAPP

WHO IS THAT?? I thought it was Pat Scott but she's got ISP problems, I thought it was Helen but she's in Florida, it can't be Joan P as she's on vacation (why are we here when everybody's gone!) WHO IS THAT??

Ginny

You're having a problem? with Mapp? You knew she would "butt" in at the last moment.

A person can always post from the public library or a laptop.

You know what, Mapp, I actually warmed up to you in the last two tapes! It was interesting to imagine what adventures could develop from the tension between you and Lucia! A good match!

And Mapp always has the last word...

Now what does that mean, Pat? Hmmmm!

Hmmm, indeed. I now think it's Pat W!! Pat W says it's Jo~!~! WHO is it?? JACKIE??

Hmmmmm.....

Daisy

Did you notice Mapp was the one usually right in her suppositions? But they always fell flat. Lucia often got music etc wrong, but somehow usually came out on top. How tarsome for Mapp.

Aha... So now Ginny is signing "Daisy" and I always thought she expertly manages you ladies and gentlemen here like Lucia.. with a firm but gentle hand.

Thank you, Jo, I always knew you had a open mind.

Ginny: And you still don't know who Mapp is?

No, she doesn't and probably never will

AGGGGGGGGGGG!!

A typical Mapplike maddening thing, so Mapp like! WHO IS THAT??? JO!! I bet it's YOU!! SHAME ON you with all those pickles and neat thing that climbs the mountain.

You know what we ought to do? We ought to meet in each one's cities for our Book Groups Gatherings!

You know, I hate to say this but ever since we read this book, I can spot Mapps and Lucias all over SeniorNet! hahahahahhaa

Really.

hahahhaha

Daisy

Lucia (hiding the sheets she was practicing on)

Everyone's coming over tonight. What could be more appropriate than hearing Shakespeare's sonnets - I'll be reading them of course.

George (adjusting his cape so his new velvet tie shows)

Olga had to go to London - how tarsome - she could have sung for us.

Major Benjy (swinging his cane)

I should be able to manage to get an extra drink or two. Qua hai!

Mapp (putting something in her pocket)

Dear Diva, such devine valentine pastries! May I have the recipe?

Diva (to herself)

You've already eaten an extra one or two, dear Elizabeth.

Quaint Irene (in the midst of several paint cans of various bright colors, paintbrush in hand)

I've painted my front door red for the day. Now to add a little color!

Olga (on the telephone 'trunk line')

I love to hear of all the goings on. Tell me word for word.

The Padre (speaking with his best Scotch burr)

We'll have a wee moment of thought for the guid saint.

Susan Wyse (adjusting her fur coat)

I expect St. Valentine to appear at my séance today. Say goodby, Algernon.

Algernon Wyse (bowing to each)

Happy Valentine's Day, everybody. Au reservoir.

(Silence.) Then E. F.:

They may remember the old saint, but how quickly they forget me - they barely could find my grave!

Pittsburgh and the neat things that climb the mountains (inclines!) is about as far as you can get from RYE!
Happy St. Valentines's Day to Mapp, Lucia, Daisy, Georgie and the BOOKIES!

Me thinks that Daisy has a very suspicious email address

Thank you, Jo

Youse guys is a screeeeeam!!! Whoever you are...

Having a bit of time getting the characters back in between the book covers, are we?

Well, you know Mapp... (And I think Ginny is playing all the parts)

I propose that we leave this discussion open. We are having too much fun to end it. The tapes add new dimensions to our readings, and it is taking me a long time to get through them. Plus, many of us will read the other books, and so have fresh observations to post. Thank you Mapp and Daisy for your visitations. (I wish I were clever enough to carry out the deception, much less even thought of it.)

This is absolutely UNREAL??!! It most certainly is NOT Ginny! I WAS Daisy at the party but how this person can be Daisy again with a different email (Quantock.not?) is beyond me??

That play was brilliant, who on earth can it BE? Very clever, whoever you are?

Yes, let's do leave this open, anybody who wants to chat over Lucia in London say so, and we'll set a date.

I keep thinking of the oranges in Tom Holt's books: you must get them, too!

Ginny/aka Daisy/ but NOT the one posting as same! AND certianly NOT Mapp!

And who was Mapp at the party??

I had really thought that someone would be checking my post box, but I guess no one is even interested... But I'll tell you one thing, that Lucia is going to meet her match.

Mapp

All right, Mapp 007, I've written you and I totally expect it to bounce like a ball. If it doesn't, you're on aol. If it does you are LOMA!! I have figured it out!!

Ginny

I wish you'd look at this!!

This is an actual LETTER I got back from MAPP:

"From: Miss Mapp <mapp007@yahoo.com>

You sound like an owl. (Inquiring minds want to know) Yours?

Not AOL. Not Daisy. But there are other Mapps here. So far I have counted at least 5.

But I just have found one Daisy.

But I can't tell or you may not let me into your book gathering in Chicago.

Mapp"

Now WHO I ask you, WHO is this?? Mapp speaks!!

EEEEERIE!!

Now who do we know with aol access? hmmmmm??

Ginny

Have had a terrible time with my ISP and then SN wouldn't answer the phone. I kept waiting for reply.. But here I am.

Ginny: Just anxious to know if you have heard from Mapp.. I sent an email and it didn't come back yet, but that was only about 5 minutes ago.

Edit: I see you did.. I really didn't think you would.

It's Pat WESTERDALE!!!

ISN'T IT??

Ginny

NO, it's YAHOO, not aol. WHO is on Yahoo, we will catch them now!!

Ginny

Ella's on Hotmail.com Maybe she's also on Yahoo.com

It could be Ella. She is clever. What fun!

This message just came through Abfou on my weedj:

dear mapp007____i like your spirit_____keep up your hopes to best lucia_____that's why i put you together in the book_______go girl go!______fred

Dear Daisy, So glad to see you here, but I have not had the opportunity to speak with you before. I've been busy here at the garden window, peeking out at the world. This is Tuesday and porridge day at the Major's.

(I don't know why Fred Benson gave me such worries and cares. But it does behoove one to watch that others don't take you on and use you.)

I just can't abide that gardener of mine. It seems he is leaving a bit early for his midday. I had best go see why. In haste.

E. Mapp

It's JACKIE!!

I'm going nuts, don't even know who I am, I feel it's JACKIE!!

Fess up time!

Ginny

This is SUCH fun!!! WhoEVER is doing it; keep oooonnn!!! I don't have a clue but whoever it is does the characters very convincingly.

I am completely hooked. Finished Lucia in London and started Miss Mapp already. They go quickly and make great light reading for bedtime. I've been staying up later and later! Miss Mapp reminds me of Miss Marple. I just love her to pieces!

Is anyone else hooked and reading ahead? We may have the B&Ls first permanent floating crap game, oops I mean book discussion, here! [OK, everyone; where have you heard THAT expression?]

Hmmmm . . . I'm not a particularly curious person, but I think I have figured out one of our visitors. In fact, I'm so sure that I would bet a dollar, and I never bet. But I won't tell, it's more fun this way.

Unless they really did crawl out from between the covers of the books. Hmmm . . .

Ginny: I am not at all shy; if that was me, I could claim it gladly. I am also not that clever. Guess again. I still think it is Ella.

Wednesday, and I see that there will be golf today. I wonder if Captain Puffin will be able to go, his light was on till the wee hours.

I must really get out for some marketing. The piece of suet I have my eye on, should be discounted. That butcher could stand a bit of haggle.

Well, I'm off and don't talk about me behind my back. Just hope I don't run into that Lucia with her high-toned ways.

Loma: who is it and how do you know? What are the clues?? I'm stumped and it's driving me CRAZY. Are there two of them? Are you one of them??

Ginny

I've been sitting here after my late tea, remembering that horrible flood on Boxing Day. You must have heard, when Lucia and I were swept away with that wall of water and all we had was that old kitchen table. But it made a fair raft and we soon were swirled out to sea.

Of course Georgie went ahead with plans for a Memorial and such. My what a time they all had, especially after the table washed ashore without us..

Well, Ginny, is there ANYONE you have not guessed these two characters to be, by now??

Now let's see.... Ginny was Daisy at the party. No one has answered yet who was Mapp at the party?? - assuming there was a Mapp. And did Mapp007 answer Pat W's email?? And did one of us post and sign Daisy, but is it there now??

Now as you know, Mapp was good at figuring things out (though telling her suspicions usually backfired on her).

We shall see. Hmmmm

Sorry pals:

Luv you all. Bought the book, and saw the video which Ginny kindly sent me. Couldn't stand the video. Hate people who gather groupies around them--also am averse to the competitivenss of one-up-manship. Couldn't read the book. Sometimes I just have to accept the status of an outsider.

Will be out of town and away from the computer for a few weeks, but will be back on as sonn as I return.

Love,

Charlotte

Now, Charlotte, that is not the right attitude. I spend my hard earned money to make a connection and you fail to see any of my good points.

Now----- Loma, Ella, Ginny, Jo, or whoever there's a chance that I may be able to get to the Windy City for your gathering, but what, I wonder, is how I'll be able to manage. I do plan to bring Withers. Even though she has refused to attend to me, I know that she would secretly love an adventure.

Must be off to the market.

E. Mapp

Charlotte, no problem with your not liking it: that's what the BC Online is all about. Have a great trip, we'll miss you!

Loma, I am not good at guessing and now I see Mapp in the Windy City which is something I've never called it so I now guess ELLA!!

Ginny

Ginny, not a good clue, as almost everybody calls it the Windy City. It might even have been in our U.S. geography books. Though your answer, Ella, may be right. But maybe not.

I am not sure I even want to know. Its more fun,, just reading them. It is someone clever for sure.

Luncheon is over and I thought I'd see if my registration is listed.  Withers has finally consented to come with me, and of course she had no choice.  Too bad Lucia and Georgie and the others have not found this delightful place to visit and talk to my friends and admirers.

I jut can't understand why Ginny is so sure I don't exist.  She has been one of best fans since way back.

The Wizard, too, even had the Mapp and Lucia book to guess.  It was the first.

Windy City?  All I know is what I read in the travel guides.  They do advise warm clothing.  I do wish they would give the temperature in numbers I can understand.

E. Mapp

I do love a little colour.

Where are the tapes now, I know Jackie has one set, who has the set of 5 and where is the other set??

Hopelessly Muddled and haunted by Mapp

I'm sorry; I really didn't mean to haunt you, Ginny.  If you like, I will retire to the pages in the book.  (Green is for sorrow)

It has been rather fun to read the postings and see that your readers have enjoyed the Mapp & Lucia tapes.  If possible, I would like to look at them.  First, I will need one of those machines.  When I have secured one, I will make arrangements with you.

If Mr. Larry puts Lucia in the Archives, do you really think she will stay there?  Lucia is not one to sit still and take a back row seat.

OOPSIE? Now how does Miss Mapp know Larry's plans? Hmmmmm?

Ginny

Aha!  My spies are everywhere!!!
(Don't I always have the last word?)

No, you don't! hahahaha

I saw in the newspaper that our "Georgie," Nigel Hawthorne, has been knighted. They always mention his "Yes, Minister" doings and "The Madness of King George," and never the Lucia, yet the Queen Mother is an avid fan of the Lucia series, and I bet she's not forgotten all.

I don't know where to put this, but our Books to England is going very well for 2000, and as soon as the Chicago Trip gets the hotel particulars set up I need to get it out there, too.

Rye is a day trip from London, the decision will be where to stay and when and how long. Current cheapo prices now are $278 roundtrip to London, and Delta has a sale on right now, 4 nights London, air, thru March, $459, through May, $519. If we then wanted to, those who wanted to go a bit farther afield, we could add a house rental from the National Trust, and the split cost for a week is negligable per person. Thru May. Or in the fall, either one. I do recommend Cornwall, you can rent an entire village there on the coast, and Doyden House comes with it's own small castle, right on the edge of a cliff. Magic.

Ginny

Mapp here: Just getting ready to settle in for the night.  The telly news says our rain will continue.

I'll not be "bullied."  And I think I'll just bide my time.  And when you see Withers and me in Chicago, you'll know I'm no ghost (as Ginny has referred to me elsewhere).

But now about this trip in 2000.  Will you be staying close and would you mind if I might join in some of your excursions?  I do hope you'll  be stopping by Tilling and I'd be so delighted to show you around.  Now don't breathe a word of this alond.  I will not have Lucia grabbing all the attention.

E. Mapp>

(And Ginny just thinks she knows.)

Well I personally would want a day trip to Rye and to get either Cynthia Reavell or the local Benson Society (she's the Tilling Socitey) to meet with us and to lead us around on a tour and if we were to go on the right day, we might view Mallards inside, itself. That's something I've never done. It's an easy day trip from London. We might walk out to Camber Castle, the ruins, thru the sheep folds, we could even stay overnight at Grebe, if we liked, it's a bed and breakfast now.

The main considerations to me are where everybody wants to stay and what they want to do. Of course, we'll all go our separate ways like we did in NYC but we'll do some stuff together, too, I would hope.

I must see Hawthorne at Stratford Upon Avon as Lear, and that's another day trip out of London. Have sent for the National Trust 1999 brochure I understand they're filling up fast, and am eager to see it come.

Ginny

My dream trip - leave the end of April before the mad rush of tourists - arrive London, settle in, easy 1st night.
spend first full day doing London and including theater, 2nd night London
3rd day bright and early off to Paddington and on to Broadway for the day, 3rd night back in London
(we are traveling light!?) so off the 4th day to Rye, spend the 4th night in Rye
the afternoon of 5th day back to London, or right on to Stratford Upon Avon
6th day and evening in Stratford to hopefully see Nigal Hawthorne
7th day travel by train to Dublin
spend the 8th day in Dublin returning to the States on the 9th day from either Dublin or if price becomes a factor travel back to London and then would have to leave the 10th day.

The inexpensive packages that the airlines offer usually includes London hotel and sometimes another perk like a theater ticket or discounts on several museums. In the early 90s, for 3 Christmases in a row, I took advantage of the package that also included the train into Victoria station from the Airport. Usually stayed 8 nights and did lots of theater, including the Royal Ballet on Boxing Day and a group bus trip with traditional Christmas Dinner on Christmas Day. I did the whole thing excluding shopping for about $1,000. The prices Brit Air is advertizing now, for less then $500 does include hotel for 5 nights. The price increases with choice of hotel.

Barbara, that does sound good. Would you add a house somewhere else or rent one in Dublin or???

I do think we want the cheapo rates, I'm ready.

Delta has some good ones, too. Brit Air had 5 nights? for that? That's pretty darn good.

There's a hotel right IN the station and it's a NICE one, too.

Ginny

Please. i logged into seniornet and bang.. my preferences are all changed. I never subscribed to computer books. home on the range.. What do i do.. I eliminated them, but am I going to have to rebook mark my favorites.. Darn......

Stephanie ... Yes

When SN crashed last Sunday, it left us with no bookmarks or someone else's.

Yes, I seemed to have someone elses entirely. I eliminated them and am slowly recovering mine.. What a mess...

For those of you looking in here, this discussion is completed, but such is the charm of E.F. Benson that nobody wants the discussion to die, so it will continue sporadically along.

I must get up the England 2000 Trip on my return next week, and will just mention that it will be a literary plilgrimage, which will include Rye, and a tour and speaker. We hope to be able to go INSIDE "Mallards," which hitherto has been next to impossible, and will have this planned well in advance.

With that in mind, would anybody enjoy reading Lucia in London ? Lots more photos, too.

More later,

Ginny

Yes, Lucia in London - may we sart the end of the month.

I'm ready for Lucia in London or any other Lucia you all decide upon!

I found the Make Way for Lucia collection at TWO different local libraries and am slowly working my way through. When it's due at one library, I take it back and go check out the one at the other library! Just finished Mapp and Lucia; what a delightful, improbable romp yet Mapp is a REAL person to me now. So are they all, really.

I am so confused. I have looked all over for this page. Wrote to Mr. Larry and he was so gracious to answer my note.

"Dear Miss Mapp,

The discussion is still active although Ginny retitled it to indicate that it is "Completed but Undying Discussion: Queen Lucia". I also took out some out-of-date material from the header of the discussion yesterday. However, all of the discussion is still there."

Now wasn't that nice of him. XOXOXO to Mr. Larry.

Thank you Miss Mapp. It was nice to hear from you. Give my best to Lucia the next time you see her.

Larry

Ahhhhhh, even our fictional characters love our Larry!

Would we have a group of at least THREE who would like to begin Lucia in London , in April?

WE can push back the date if desired?

Incidentally, WHO has the tapes and WHERE are they? I do have the second set of 5.

Ginny

Ginny as I remember you have a full plate of reading discussions In April. I have no problem scooting Lucia to the end of the month or even till the first of May. Now will Lucia be patient or will she up and look for another site to set herself up and force the rest of us back here alone in boring Riseholme or will we have to sell so that we may join her in her new site?

COUNT ME IN for a discussion of Lucia in London. Whenever...

FABULOUS! That's all we need, we've got the beginnings of a fine group here, so let's schedule Lucia in London for May!! How about May Day, I like that? Will ask Larry to get one up asap!

I've got, believe it or not, even more photos of Rye and also 5 more videos, so when I get the first set back, will think about sending the rest on!

What fun!!

Ginny

GREAT, well that works well, then, for us all. My poor old copies of the Lucia series have been read so many times they are taped together!!

Always just as fresh as the first reading, to me.

Maybe we better say May 15th or 20th?? We can start out slowly with it, if you like or do the entire thing at once!

Ginny

Actually, Ginny, I've already read it. Does that disqualify me? Please say "no"!

I've read it too. I'll be here whenever you start.. Except when I'm in Georgia at the Bash.

Ginny, I wouldn't miss this one...How about mid-May?

I've been wondering what to do with my tape...it sits next to my computer with a stack of things that defy categorization...I guess it's my "to do" box. My "I don't know what to do" box. If you'll remember, I left the tape in the VCR after rewinding it, not knowing that Bruce had scheduled something else to tape. I lost the first 15 minutes of Lucia. Is the tape worth anything to you? Shall I mail it? Or.........? Leave it in the "I don't know what to do box"?

Jeryn, of course not! I've read it probably....well, I'd be embarrassed to say HOW many times, let's just say I can act it out.

Pat, great, I've already got the discussion up.

Joan, fabulous, mid May it is, and, no, on your tape which has been partially erased (my fault for not making it erase proof, but I can sever seem to remember how to do that!) just toss it, I don't want it back.

Started out watching the second set of tapes yesterday, and, you'll laugh at me, they were out of order, and I didn't realize it until I had watched 2 episodes worth. So I guess we can say one can ....what was that movie that was a cult thing, that people would come dressed as the characters and act along with them? Well, there you are. Maybe we should have our own little play! hahahahah WE've already got Miss Mapp!

Ginny

Oh good, count me in on the discussion. I have read all of Lucia many times, but will try to refresh.

Steph, wonderful, and you take care of that EYE!!

Ginny