---Red and the Black ~ Prediscussion ~ Stendhal ~ Export

In December of 1827, a French newspaper published the story of a young man who attempted the murder of a married woman. The article inspired Marie-Henri Beyle, [Stendhal was just one of his many pen names], to write what was to become "one of the greatest psychological novels of all time."

Stendhal set his story between 1827-30, but he treated it as historical fiction. There is also more than a little biographical resemblance between his protagonist Julien Sorel and Stendhal. His contemporaries did not fully appreciate his stark realism during the Romantic period in which they lived.

This is the story of a young man's attempt to rise above his low birth through hard work, talent and not a little deception in his quest for power and wealth. Stendhal uses his flawed hero to satirize French society and the Church, foretelling the radical change that would remove both of these powerful forces from power.

Pre-discussion Considerations

1. Historical setting - France. 1830 - political tensions

2. Stendhal's contemporaries: writers, artists in France and abroad

3. Stendhal's background and formative years in Grenoble
Author and his protagonist share biographical similarities coming from the provinces to the big city.

Relevant Links: Electronic translation by Charles Tergie - in English // Electronic text - in FRENCH // Electronic translation by C. Scott Moncrieff - in English // Stendhal's French and English Contemporaries //Prosper Merimée and others on Stendhal

Discussion Leader: Joan Pearson

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Welcome to France, mes amies! Bienvenue!

This discussion is scheduled to begin in April. We open the doors early to give everyone a chance to find a comfortable translation, a comfortable chair and to provide an opportunity to get to know one another a bit before we begin.

Sometimes we take advantage of this open space before a discussion begins to share some background information, information that the author doesn't give once he begins his story. - His protagonist, Julien Sorel won't be referring to the politics of the day - just the related political tensions and corruption, I believe. The author assumes his audience knows what's going on.

So, this pre-discussion is not obligatory, as much as it may be enriching. The important function of the pre-discussion is to get to know who will be in the room with us.

We have a whole month to get to know one another! Formidable! And again - Welcome, everyone!

Jackie - you're the first one here. That means you get the hors d'oeuvres while they are hot and your pick of the most comfy chair - by the fire.

Have you decided which translation you are going with? You know I lust after that illustrated library copy you found!
Bienvenue!

And I'm right behind !

Bonjour, JoanP, Jackie, and Traude! Je suis arrivé!

Oh, boy, I'm ready to enjoy the fire, savor some hors d'oevres and wine, and slaughter the French language! I have my book and look forward to the discussion avec plaisir!

Marni

Quel plaisir ce sera de discuter Le Rouge et le Noir ensembles. It will be a pleasure to discuss The Red and the Black together. I don't think I need to translate since so many know French here.

Since I found a copy of the 1947 Heritage Press Moncrief for $1(!) I'm using that one plus the Gard translation (I just don't trust that 420 pages includes the complete text). Wish I had enough French left to read the original but it's gone, gone, gone.

Je voudrais dire le livre mais je ne peux pas trouver le livre au cd. There are probably alot of mistakes in that simple French sentence but I have not been keeping my French up lately. So please excuse my bad French. I really would like to read the book but can't find it in audio format. I am going to buy the dvd of it though. However I know that it will not be like the book. So I will just read the posts in the discussion and refrain from commenting.

Oh I see there is an electronic text!! I can print that out with the print as large as I need. I will have to try that.

Joan Grimes

"The indiscriminate reading of Novels and Romances is to young females of the most dangerous tendency...it agitates their fancy to delirium of pleasure never to be realized...and opens to their view the Elysium fields which exist only in the imagination...fields which will involve them in wretchedness and inconsolable sorrow...The most profligate villain, bent on the infernal purpose of seducing a woman, could not wish a symptom more favorable to his purpose than a strong imagination inflamed with the rhapsodies of artful and corrupting novels." ~ "The Clergyman's Almanack" ~ 1815

Now that we have been warned by the good clergyman who wrote the above paragraph, I say we go for it! But it does pose the question: How did the "good" clergyman know so much about women and novels?

Oh! Ann, that cracks me up, hahahaha.

Joan, please please join us with this one. It would be a shame if you didn't.

The area around Grenoble is so green with lush vegetation, it litterally climbs any wall it can find and sometimes it's hard to see the house behind it.

THE VALLY OF THE DOUBS close to the Swiss border.

In March/April Bookmarks a letter to the editor concerning ebooks mentioned a Sony Reader which can hold several books, is lightweight etc. etc. I wonder if the text on the display can be re-sized. Has anyone used an ebook reader? What books are available? I think I'll research this.

About ebooks: Well, this sounds so good. There are many titles (thousands) available in various formats. Good news, the font is re-sizable. Here is the description of the Raffel translation of R&B:

http://www.ebookmall.com/ebooks/red-and-the-black-stendhal-ebooks.htm

The Sony costs $350 but looks like the answer for me when my eyes get wonky.

Jackie, wait till Bern gets here, she just read Thirteenth Tale on her Palm pilot and she just LOVES it. She can give you some tips on what to get if you decide to go that route.

JoanG - that sounds like a good option - I'd try the Tergie translation before the Moncrieff - the font seems so much clearer. Let us know how that works - when you enlarge the pages from the etext. It will take you a ream of paper, but we want you with us, world travelor that you are. Have you ever been to the western towns at the French border?

Éloïse - the photos of the Doubs River Valley are so beautiful - so peaceful. Who would want to leave there for the bustle of the city?

Will put the link in the heading - there are pages of them! For those who are brushing up on French or learning something about French pronunciation - the Doubs River is pronounced "DOU" - just in case you are talking to someone about the book...

Scrawler the good clergyman reminds me of the priest friend of Don Quixote who burned the Don's books because he knew the contents therein. He'd read them all very closely before pronouncing them unfit for his friend's library!

Marni, I just knew if we were offering potables, you'd be here!

- with Traudee right behind you!

I've read that there is much of Marie-Henri Beyle's (Stendhal's) character in the protagonist of Red and Black, Julien Sorel. I'm always looking for the author in his/her novel, though have been cautioned not to. But this one is said to have strong biographical likenesses.

They both come from the provinces - country boys in the big city of Paree. Maybe we should look into Marie-Henri's background before we open the pages of Red and Black? I read somewhere that Stendhal had over 200 pen names. I'm wondering if he published under other names.

I'm so happy to see all of you here today! Welcome/Bienvenue!

I'll be here too. My first time participating in a book discussion online. Really looking forward to it. Are there any hors d'oeuvres left?

I've just made a fool of myself in the 13th Tale discussion so I've consoled myself by eating the last of the hors d'oevres!

I have the Lloyd C. Parks translation of the Red and the Black, published by the International Collectors Library. The print is easy to read and I do like the whole feel of the book. I've looked a little at the text and I think I prefer the way it reads to the Raffel translation which I just bought. The Parks sounds more of the period.

I'm sure there are other translations out there that preserve the original feel of the book, too. I'll read them both, I guess.

Joan, you absolutely did not make a fool of yourself. You pointed out an article that was very important that no one else had caught. People are all the time having trouble getting links to work; you're not the first, and now some others have re-posted the link, and maybe it works. I am personally very grateful to you for calling the article to my attention.

Glencora! So happy to see you here. The hors d'oeuvres are cold, the wine warm. I need to get out to the kitchen (la cuisine) and fire up the oven - It's so hard to get good help these days! Welcome to your first SeniorNet Book discussion!

Bienvenue to Le Rouge et Le Noir!

JoanR - I agree with PatH - the article you posted was so on target - Diane Setterfield's characters still in the fabric of our clothes. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. The Parks translation sounds good! I'd go with it.

A Warm welcome to both you and PatH

"George Sand: The Writer Although George Sand was not the first women author, she is often attributed as the first professional woman writer of fiction. By taking on a man's name she claimed her equality with the male writers of the time. She wanted to be judged purely based upon her talents and not only as a women author, which the men looked upon condescendingly. She soon became famous and other women began to copy her style. They too took on male names but most of these women lacked the education that the male authors had. While the men had been taught editing, revising and polishing before releasing their work to the public, the women lacked this education and so would often publish their first drafted idea. As for George Sand's own writing, her words were read by hundreds of men and women alike. Her novels often portrayed women as intelligent and morally sound individuals, giving her readers confidence in their worth as females. She was an idol to women of her time. While giving dignity to those she considered enslaved to marriage, she forever changed the way that women writers were viewed."

When women started to read novels, it changed their perspective about their femininity. They wanted to be equal to men intellectually when before they had been perceived as either a decorative in a wealthy home or as a literal slave serving the family, but never as intelligent or capable as a man. 19th century Women admired a woman who defied convention like Madame Sand and dressed as a man in order to be accepted for her literary talent.

Read what Balzac said about GEORGE SAND here.

Chronology of Noted Books and Novels:

(Selected books and novels, some classic, some simply popular in their time.)

1800-1900: Almanacs.

Almanacs were read by all classes of people throughout the century, with literally hundreds of different "farmers' almanacs" being published as early as 1820. Some had been around since the 1700s.("The Farmer's Almanac" was founded in 1792.) In many families, the annual almanac was the only "literature" read all year.

1800:

"Aristole's Masterpiece," anonymous. A "sex" book masquerading as the work of the Greek philosopher. It featured woodcuts and descriptions of bodies, the mechanics of intercourse, etc. Originally written in the 1600s, sixteen editions were printed from 1800-1831. This was the book fathers hid and young men read behind the barn.

"The Life and Memorable Actions of George Washington," Mason Weems. A fictionalized biography that went through eighty-six printings from 1800-1927.

1801:

"The Wild Irish Girl", Lady Morgan. Written in the form of letters, the adventures of the son of an English nobleman.

1802:

"New American Practical Navigator," Nathaniel Bowditch.

1805:

"Shewing the Evil Tendency of the Use of Tobacco," Benjamin Waterhouse.

1807-1808:

"Salmagundi: Or the WhimWhams and Opinions of Lancelot Longstaff, Esq. and Others," Washington Irving.

1809:

"History of New York from the Beginning of the World to the End of the Dutch Dynasty," Washington Irving.

1814:

"Undine," De La Motte Fouque. A German fantasy featuring water spirts, romance and an enchanted forest.

1818:

"Frankenstein," Mary Shelley.

1819-1820:

"The Sketch Book of Henry Crayon, Gent.," including "Rip Van Winkle," Washington Irving.

1821:

"The Spy," James Fenimore Cooper.

1823:

"Leatherstocking Tales," James Fenimore Cooper

1826:

"The Last of the Mohicans," James Fenimore Cooper

1827-1838:

"The Birds of America," 4 vols. John James Audubon.

1828:

"American Dictionary of the English Language," Noah Webster

1830:

"The Book of Mormon," Joseph Smith.

The above excerpts were taken from: "The Writer's Guide to Everyday Life in the 1800s"

"What Happened When": A Chronology of Life & Events in America:

1803:

"Life and Character of Patrick Henry," William Wirt of Virginia.

"The Voice of Nature," William Dunlap, playright, adapted the French melodrama "La Voice d Nature" by L.C. Caigniez.

1804:

"Life of George Washington," John Marshall

1808:

"The First Settlers of Virginia" John Davis. The first book to treat Pocahontas as a literary figure.

1813:

"Charlote Temple: A Tale of Truth," Susanna Rowson. The most successful woman author of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century.

1820: (A great literay theme of the 1820s was the romanitic treatment of the Indian.

"Frontier Maid, or the Fall of Wyoming (1819)

"Yamoyden" by Eastburn and Sands (1820)

"Logan, an Indian Tale," by Samuel Webster (1821)

"The Land of Powhatten by a Virginian (1821)

"Ontwa, Son of the Forest" by Henry Whitling (1822)

1822:

"The Pilot" James Fenimore Cooper

1824:

"A Narrative of the Life of Mrs. Mary Jemison" by James E. Seaver. Of the many accounts of Indian captivity, none was more popular.

I thought it was interesting that American authors like James Fenimore Cooper and Washington Irving romantized the American west or satirized the American people while European authors were writing about more serious themes such as class and reform.

I found it interesting how the American authors like James Fenimore Cooper were so hugely popular in Europe. I finally read my first Cooper last year - The Last of the Mohicans - and it seemed so....dumb. But people loved it.

Éloïse, thank you for bringing George Sand - [Aurore Dudevant] to our attention - a French contemporary of Stendhal. Have you ever read any of her work? Think about it - how many 19th century French authors have you read? Compared to British and American? (Marni, I'm still laughing at your comment on the beloved Fennimore Cooper - you called his work "dumb"

The Last of the Mohigans! I do know what you are saying though, although I probably wouldn't call it "dumb"

)

We almost chose Balzac's Cousin Bette this time - it came in third. Some of us have read Flaubert's Madame Bovary - what else? It seems that Stendhal was not appreciated - his Red and Black was not well-received at publication. It seems that Balzac, who was popular, did much for Stendhal's reputation when he gave him his approval.

So why wasn't Stendhal liked? In one of the links, I read of a meeting between George Sand and Stendhal. Perhaps this sheds a little light on why he wasn't well-liked.

" Musset had already written on Venice; he now wanted to go there. Madame de Musset objected to this, but George Sand promised so sincerely that she would be a mother to the young man that finally his own mother gave her consent. On the evening of December 12, 1833, Paul de Musset accompanied the two travellers to the mail-coach.

On the boat from Lyons to Avignon they met with a big, intel- intelligent-looking man. This was Beyle-Stendhal, who was then Consul at Civita-Vecchia. He was on his way to his post. They enjoyed his lively conversation, although he made fun of their illusions about Italy and the Italian character. He made fun, though, of everything and of every one, and they felt that he was only being witty and trying to appear unkind. At dinner he drank too much, and finished by dancing round the table in his great fur- lined boots. Later on he gave them some specimens of his obscene conversation, so that they were glad to continue their journey without him." George Sand and Stendhal

"He made fun of everything and of every one," - Yep, that's our Stendhal. Oh dear, I hope we don't frighten anyone away. This IS a good book - a GREAT BOOK! Don't go away, please! You will see.

Scrawler - that is a very good observation -

"American authors like James Fenimore Cooper and Washington Irving romanticized the American west or satirized the American people while European authors were writing about more serious themes such as class and reform."

Now Stendhal wrote of serious themes, but he satirized everyone.

I'd love a timeline of the British authors writing in Stendhal's time to get a good picture of who was writing what and when - (can you find another such time line, Anne?) Here's something that I came across this afternoon - do you agree with it?

Thackery asks, - " Which of us is happy in this world? Which of us has his own desire? or having it is satisfied?" This is much more a French view than an English one, since many great English characters are happy in the possession of their desires...while many French characters are never happy in possession of anything they act to achieve." Jane Smiley's Thirteen Ways of Looking at the Novel"

Do you think that's the difference between the French and the English Romance - in a nutshell? Let's look out for that...

Joan, my mother only read French classics, like Molière and French history books especially about Napoleon. She had played amateur theatre before she got married. After I was married we lived in a small French speaking town and the only library was French.

When I spent months in a sanatorium I started to read English books. I don't know the proportion between French and English books I have read. I read more in English now than ever since I joined Seniornet because I need to keep practicing my English. I like American authors as much as British authors they have a different perspective in life and I like to compare the different cultures.

"Do you think that's the difference between the French and the English Romance - in a nutshell? Let's look out for that...: the difference between those two is huge and it can't be said in a nutshell, we will surely see this during the discussion because we will have examples to compare.

It's my grandson Anthony's birthday today, he is 14 and I am going downstairs to wish him a Happy Birthday.

JOAN P,
I cannot believe it! I ordered the French text only on Wednesday from Schoenhof's Foreign Language Books in Cambridge, Mass., and here it is, already ! I am delighted. It has just the right feel and a comfortable-to-read print.

This college edition is an actual lecture by Prof. Anne Lamalle of l'Université d'Orléans and contains 5 "arrêts", i.e. pauses after specific chapters, to facilitate understanding and analysis. An appendix contains a Glossary, inter alia.

There is also a tripartite timeline on (1) Histoire 1789-1842, (2) Culture, and (3) Vie et oeuvre de Stendhal in the respective year(s).

The local library had only one (!) translation, the Moncrieff, and I took it home. There is no other in the entire system, which surprised even the reference librarian.

ÉLOÏSE, your mention of George Sand gives me the opportunity to recommend an excellent novel by Benita Eisler, Chopin's Funeral, 2004, which is as much about Chopin as about George Sand. She was a fascinataing character, and so is this book.

In November 06, Eisler published a second book about George Sand, it's nonfiction and titled Naked in the Marketplace: The Lives of George Sand .
Sand produced an enormous number of novels and plays, but none have carried over well into our century.

Thank you Eloise and Scrawler for your interesting posts. I would love to read a novel by George Sands. For question#2 what about Gustave Flaubert? JoanP, I think you mentioned Flaubert in your post. I remember reading Madame Bovary. Madame Bovary could not settle for a life without excitement and romance. Was she influenced by the novels she read? I can't remember exactly what influences made Madame Bovary so miserable? Traude, thank you for the title of that last book about George Sand. "The Lives...." I think the title is intriguing.

The following is a list of French 19th century authors who were born between 1801-1807, making them contemporaries of Stendahl:

Claude Tillier (1801-1844)
Victor Hugho (1802-1885), (Les Miserables, 1862)
Alexandre Dumas, pere (1802-1870)
Prosper Merimee (1802-1870)
Edgar Quinet (1803-1870)
Eugene Sue (1804-1857)
Charles Augustin Sainte-Beauve (1804-1869)
Jules Janin (1804-1874)
George Sand (Amandine-Lucie-Aurore Dupin, baronne Dudevant)
(1804-1876)
Alexis Henri Charles de Clerel, vicomte de Tocqueville (1805-1859)
Anicet Bourgeois (1806-1871)
Emile de Girardin(1806-1881)
Desire Nisard (1806-1881)
Emile Souvestre (1806-1854)
Aloysius Bertrand (1807-1841)
Gerard de Nerval (Gerard Labrunie) (1808-1855)
Jules-Amedee Barbey d' Aurevilly (1808-1889)
Petrus Borel (1809- 1859)
Pierre-Joseph Prudhon (1809-1865)
Xavier Forneret (1809-1884)

I recognize Victor Hugo, Alexandre Dumas, and George Sand among this group. Does anyone recognize anyone else?

Gustave Flaubert who wrote "Madame Bovary" was born in 1821 and would have been nine years old when Stendal wrote the "Red and the Black". Would you consider Flaubert a contemporary of Stendal's? If you do the list of contemporaries of Stendal's would go on for three or four more pages in Wikipedia.

Hi everyone!

I would like to join the discussion of The Red and the Black. I will be reading the translation from the Barnes and Noble classics series. I have read many books from the series and have always been pleased with them.

I do not know much French. It is the language I am currently trying to learn more of and more about. I am learning to get by conversationally in French speaking places, as a tourist. Exposure to the culture always helps when learning a language, so I am looking forward to reading my first French novel with you all.

JoanP: I was hoping The Last of the Mohicans would be beloved, too, especially after I saw the fabulous film with Daniel Day Lewis. But when I got to things in the book such as Natty Bumpo covering himself in a bearskin and able to sneak past his Indian captors because they thought he was a real bear - now, to me, that was dumb!!

Marni

Hats, yes Emma Bovary was an avid reader of novels which was a new form of literature for the time.

Traude, did you ever read George Sand? I saw the movie Impromptu last night about her liaison with Chopin. She also had several other artists friends like the writer Alfred de Musset, the Impressionist painter Eugène Delacroix, Franz Listz.

Ann, (Scrawler) Prosper Mérimée wrote the novella Carmen from which Bizet was inspired to write his famous opera. Victor Hugo another contemporary wrote Les Misérables. Victor Hugo was said to be the greatest poet of all times.

LauraD, Marni, Bonsoir.

ÉLOÏSE, no, I never read anything by George Sand. Only one novel of hers, "The Haunted Pool", is listed by Mortimer Adler and Harold Bloom, respectively, two of our definitive sources of Great Books Classics.

It is her life (more than her books) that has continued to fascinate people. She has been portrayed on the screen by Judy Davis (the Australian actress who was marvelous in E.M. Fosters 'A Passage to India", and by Juliette Binoche.

Sand's relationship with Chopin was an unlikely one because of the age difference; in the end they were more like mother and son. They were also temperamentally very different. She was indeed linked romantically to Alfred de Musset and Franz List and others. She maintained a lively correspondence with Gusave Flaubert.

The flavor of her time and her larger-than-life personality are beautifully depicted in Benita Eisler's novel "Chopin's Funeral". I liked that novel better than her recent nonfiction sequel "Naked in the Marketplace" (which contains some repetitions from the novel).

These posts are so interesting - I'm quite certain that our reading of Stendhal's Red and Black will be much more accessible when we have examined the chaotic world in which he lived and wrote.

Éloïse - I am particularly interested in the fact that your mother had a particular interest in reading about Napoleon. She had that in common with Standhal. I'm not sure we all appreciate the way the French feel - and felt towards Napoleon. Such a tumultuous time - back and forth between the rule of the Monarchy, the Napoleons, the Empire, the Republic. We'll need to get some information about that too. Perhaps a time line of this period in history would help.

Traudee, I would love to have the French edition you just received - and I'd love to have the "tripartite timeline on (1) Histoire 1789-1842, (2) Culture, and (3) Vie et oeuvre de Stendhal in the respective year(s)." Hopefully we can find something like that - en anglaisbefore we begin.

Scrawler - thank you so much for the time-line of French authors - Stendhal's contemporaries. Do you all see some familiar names on this list? Laura reminds us some of these - "Prosper Mérimée wrote the novella Carmen from which Bizet was inspired to write his famous opera. Victor Hugo another contemporary wrote Les Misérables." How about Dumas' Three Musqueteers?

Ann wrote - "Flaubert who wrote "Madame Bovary" was born in 1821 and would have been nine years old when Stendhal wrote the "Red and the Black". Would you consider Flaubert a contemporary of Stendhal's?" Hmmm, what do the rest of you think?

Stendhal was 37 when he wrote Red and Black in 1930 - Flaubert was nine at the time. There are some periods in history when the difference would not have been as great. Stendhal fought under Napoleon before his fall in 1814, He would always be devoted to Napoleon, unhappy with the Restoration in the France that Flaubert would have experienced as a youngster. Flaubert wrote Madame Bovary some 20 years after Stendhal wrote Red and Black. Would you say the two were contemporaries?

ps.Marni, if I were in a strange new world, on the alert for danger on all sides and someone crawled by me under a bear skin - I'd run - and be convinced that I had glimpsed a bear!

hats - LauraD, this is great! Happy to see you both with us! Bienvenue, mes amies! Laura, yes, learning about the culture will certainly help in your understanding of the langue. We'll toss in some vocabulaire now et then too, d'accord?

- hats - exactly! "Madame Bovary could not settle for a life without excitement and romance"- and look where it got her - what a tragic end. I'm trying to remember English or American romances of this period that ended tragically. Don't they all have happy endings? I thought that was a hallmark of the British gothic romance. But oh, my, the French - so dramatic, such unbearably painful endings - as Jane Smiley said - "French characters are never happy in possession of anything they act to achieve." Éloïse - I'll be happy to hear about more of the differences between the French and the English novels of this period. I'm sure it isn't as simple as it appears to be right now.

Scrawler, may we call on you once again for a time-line of the British authors of this time?

JOAN, Stendhal was 37 when the book was published, but he had worked on it for some years.

He was drawn to and lived in Italy for a number of years, and that's probably how he was given a consular job. One of these was in Trieste, a beautiful city in northeaastern Italy situated on the Gulf of Trieste. Its port was free until 1891.
James Joyce lived in Trieste from 1904-05.

I think of a contemporary as someone very near the age of the other person. For example, in Pissarro's life, his contemporaries were Monet, Degas, Berthe Morisot, etc. All were adults involved in the French world of art. These men and women shared friendships, debates and art challenges. It is my guess Flaubert and Stendhal were not contemporaries. The age difference is too great.

My mind is second guessing the answer I gave in the above post. What about child protegees? Does age difference matter? And must contemporaries work in the same field? Is President Bush a contemporary of Dan Rather although both men work in different fields? I definitely need help with this question. I like the question because it made my brain start churning and wondering.

Hats: Very good point. I would guess that there could be mentor/mentee relationships where the younger and the older shared a time period and a set of companions. But the elder would have different frames of reference than the younger. Does contemporaries imply direct association? Or is it merely sharing the planet during some of the same years?

Mrs. Sherlock, I love the question, don't you? I see what you are saying too.

"Or is it merely sharing the planet during some of the same years? "

Here are some definitions of contemporary from dictionary.com:

–adjective 1. existing, occurring, or living at the same time; belonging to the same time: Newton's discovery of the calculus was contemporary with that of Leibniz. 2. of about the same age or date: a Georgian table with a contemporary wig stand. 3. of the present time; modern: a lecture on the contemporary novel.

–noun 4. a person belonging to the same time or period with another or others. 5. a person of the same age as another.

Since Flaubert wrote Madame Bovary some 20 years after Stendhal wrote Red and Black, I would you say the two were not contemporaries. Twenty years is a generation.

Thanks, Laura. Hats is right, Flaubert/Stendhal as contemporaries is a good - a great question. Given the chaotic times and the shifting political allegiances, the two were probably generations apart in their views.

But - if you can remove the political factor from the comparison and think of them purely as writers (I'm not sure that this is possible)- consider that one of the reasons Stendhal's work was not well-received when published was because his realism, his psychological depiction of his characters - was not what his readers of Romantic novels were accustomed to reading. Stendhal was ahead of his time - His approach to his characters - was more like Flaubert's perhaps? In this sense, could we consider them as contemporaries?

One of the reasons that we in our time period might think that "The Last of the Mohicans" in less than stellar ideas was that it was so melodramatic. But that's the way many of the writers of the 1800s wrote. The average persons of the day could understand "plays" better than they could read books. And when they became more literate the writers wrote books that the average person could understand. Also writers like James Fenimore Cooper wanted people to "get" his ideas about the American Indian, so he over emphasized his sketches, descriptions of characters, and also the world in which they lived.

What perhaps gets lost in all this romantizing of the American Indian is the fact that this is one of the first books that a Negro was portrayed in a positive way. Cora Munro the older sister was half-Negro which to many at this time would make her a Negro. But she was portrayed as a God-fearing woman who gave up her life rather than submit to Magna. And it is the young Delaware that tries to save Cora's life. So what we see in this scene is that a Negro was willing to give up her life in order to save others and we also see an American Indian that was also willing to give up his life for a White woman. Many readers would have found this unbelievable because of predisposed ideas towards both the Indians and the Negro.

Finally, much of "The Last of the Mochians" was written symbolically. Here is an example of what I mean:

"In what part of them [the Falls] are we?" asked Heyward.

"Why, we are nigh the spot that Providence first placed them at, but where, it seems, they were too rebellious to stay. The rock proved softer on each side of us, and so they left the center of the river bare and dry, first working out these two little holes for us to hide in."

"We are then on an island?"

"Aye! there are the falls on two sides of us, and the river above and below. If you had daylight it would be worth the trouble to step up on the height of this rock, and look at the perversity of the water. It falls by no rule at all; sometimes it leaps, sometimes it tumbles; there it skips; here, it shoots; in one place 'tis white as snow, and in another 'tis green as grass; hereabouts it pitches into deep hollows that rumble and quake the 'arth; and there away it ripples and sings like a brook, fashioning whirlpools and gulleys in the old stone, as if 'twas no harder than trodden clay. The whole design of the river seems disconcerted. First it runs smoothly, as if meaning to go down the descent as things were ordered; then it angles about and faces the shores; nor are there places wanting where it looks backward, as if unwilling to leave the wilderness, to mingle with the salt! Aye, lady, the fine cobweb-looking cloth you wear can show you, where the river fabricates all sorts of images, as if, having broke loose from order, it would try its hand at everything. And yet what does it amount to! After the water has been suffered to have its will, for a time, like a headstrong man, it is gathered together by the hand that made it, and a few rods below you may see it all, flowing on steadily toward the sea, as was foreordained from the first foundation of the 'arth!" ~ "Last of the Mohicans"

"Hawk-eye's listeners missed the significance of this description and so have Cooper's critics; for, as the image is elaborated into vibrant action, the romance becomes an intense contemplative study of "the windings and turnings of human natur'" in a context so grand that man's rebellions against Reason or Nature are constantly exposed to the reader and perpetually reabsorbed into the cosmic process." ~ Afterward.

This is perhaps a round-about-way on my part to bring awareness to the symbolism that was in much of the 19th century writings of this time. It might be good to note if Stendhal's "The Red and the Black" also shows this same symbolism in his characters and surroundings that he describes.

Scrawler, you do very fine research. I am sure it takes quite a bit of time. Thank you.

Joan P, Many French people like Napoleon, for some he was a hero, for others he was a monster. When I was a teenager I too loved to read about his exploits, now though at this age I think he was just another glory seeking warmonger as bad and cruel as the others.

I don't think we can judge a book by the behavior of the author, Balzac was worse than Stendhal for loose morals and they had a similar childhood. Balzac was sent off to a seminary at a very tender age and he had a loveless childhood.

Oh, I agree, Scrawler - "It might be good to note if Stendhal's "The Red and the Black" also shows this same symbolism in his characters and surroundings that he describes." I would be surprised if we don't! Starting with the very title of the book - there are quite a few interpretations of Stendhal's title. I read that he had intended to call it "Julien" right up to publishing time when he changed it to "Le Rouge et Le Noir."

Without getting into the symbolism, before we even read the book, it is fair to say that the colors represent a number of things, and the colors can represent "groups" - factions. Perhaps we need to keep this in mind when considering the translation of the title.

I'll have to admit that my first reading(40 some years ago) of Le Rouge et le Noir was in French - so I think of the title in those terms. When the title was nominated in Great Books Upcoming, I entered it as "Le Rouge et le Noir" in the chart. I was asked to change it - or at least add the English translation - so I did.

Before we begin, I would like to clarify the translation with you.- How shall we refer to this novel, to this discussion? The important thing is consistency. I'm looking at the translations in front of me and see

Moncrieff's translation - (Modern Library)- The Red and The Black

Moncrieff's translation (Everyman's Library)- The Scarlet and the Black
*Robert Adams (Norton Critical edition)- Red and Black

Burton Raffel - The Red and The Black

Personally, I'd like to refer to the novel as Stendhal did - "Le Rouge et le Noir" but that's because this was my first exposure to the book. That's how I think of it. But I am just one - and realize that we are reading translations of his work and so the title is probably better translated.

SO what shall it be? Red and Black as Adams refers to it? Scarlet and Black, The Red and the Black? I'm going to let you all decide what would make you most comfortable. Now is the time to speak up. If it doesn't matter to you, one way or another, please say that too.

If you think we should use The Red and the Black as Raffel does, do you think the menu line should read either:

Red and the Black, The

Red and the Black

Your wish, my command!

Thanks Joan P. for giving us the opportunity to state our preference in the translation of the title Le Rouge et le Noir. That title in French always intrigued me because he could have called it Rouge et Noir, but he didn't and that is why I prefer to see it translated as Stendhal wrote it.

Eloise, I will agree with your suggestion.

I agree with Eloise and Hats.

I'd like to use "The Red and the Black" myself, simply because I'd probably wouldn't get the French words correct.

List of English writers:

Jane Austen, (1775-1817), wrote Sense and Sensibility, and Pride and Prejudice.
Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, (1803-1873), the annual bad writing contest is named after him.
Henry Cockton, (1807-1852)
Daniel Defoe, journalist, author of Robinson Crusoe and
Moll Flanders
Charles Dickens, (1812-1870), author of David Copperfield, Oliver twist, and A Christmas Carol
George Eliot, (1819-1880)
Henry Fielding, (1707-1754)
Elizabeth Gaskell, (1810-1865)
Frederick Marryat, (1792-1848), Mr. Midshipman Easy and other
sea stories
Thomas Love Peacock, (1785-1866)
Ann Radcliffe (1764-1823)
Samuel Richardson, printer, contender for the title of
"first English novelist", author of Pamela(1740) and
Clarissa (1748)
William Makepeace Thackeray, (1811-1863), author of Vanity Fair
Anthony Trollope, (1815-1882), prolific documentor of life in
Victorian England

I entered the "bad writing contest" named after Edward George Bulwer-Lytton at a writing convention once and we all got to read our stories out loud. I doubt there was a dry eye in the place and not because they were touching or appealing but because they were all very, very BAD! But oh what fun that was and we actually learned alot about writing.

I just finished writing William Makepeace Thackeray's "Vanity Fair" and that was really a delightful story.

ÉLOÏSE is right. The French title is LE Rouge et LE Noir, chosen by the author for its meaning. If we use the French title, we should use it in exactly the same way, acknowledging the original - irrespective of the dictates of our own library system, which relegates the "The" in every book title invariably to the end.
But should/can that be applied to foreign book titles as well ?

However, as long as we understand whom and what Stendahl means in the title (and we will find out), does it really matter what abbreviation we use here ?

When I write in English I am constantly taking out the word "the" from my text because it seems that that word has become either unnecessary or obsolete, except where it is impossible to take out, but in French the word "le/la" is never taken out even if it is repetitive and looks useless. We can blame the sacred Académie Française for its rigidity in accepting changes in the French language. I often feel that the English language renews itself constantly inventing new words that people adopt freely making it a most prolific language sometimes to our regret because we feel that it looses in the process. Enough said.

I love to learn a language and I think I will take Latin some time in the future, I have postponed it long enough.

Hi- I had decided to join the discussion and went to the library to order a copy. San Jose has a million inhabitants, numerous libraries and NO COPY OF OUR BOOK! The librarian then went to San Jose State University with at least 20,000 students. Alas ,only one lone copy. It finally arrived at my branch library and lo and behold,It was an illustrated copy, translation by Moncrieff,circa 1926.

It had last been borrowed in 1996.Sitting on the shelf for those years had turned the book into a crumbling disaster. I read the fine introduction by Hamilton Basso and then went out and bought a Barnes & Noble copy since the Moncrieff was too heavy to read in bed and the pieces of the cover kept crumbling. Also the smell was very bad.

The modern version is what I will use for this discussion. I like to write on the margins of the books we discuss , so it is actually better for me to own the book.

Judy

Okay, you have spoken - will go add "the" wherever it has been omitted. Shall I send Robert Adams a copy of your comments - he, the translator of the Norton Critical Edition of "Red and Black?"

********************** Oh Judy! I am so glad to hear that you replaced the smelly old Moncrieff - even though it has those illustrations I am dying to see. It's great to hear you are joining us again in this discussion of The Black and the Red! Bienvenue, mon amie!

Scrawler, thank you so much for the listing of Stendhal's British contemporaries. (I plan to get these lists together on an html page and put it in the heading before we begin the discussion.)

There's Trollope on that list - we came close to reading Barchester Towers this time - and Vanity Fair, a satire on society in early 19th-century England. We should read that one together here in Great Books some time...someone should remember to nominate it. Satire is popular at this time in both France and England. Anne you will be able to help us compare the two works as we get into The Red and the Black. I'm trying to remember what I once read about Becky Sharpe - was there a happy ending for her? Oh, dreadful memory!

"I don't think we can judge a book by the behavior of the author." (Eloise)

Hmmm...can we judge an author by the behavior of his character? When we are told that the work is largely biographical? I'm curious how this boy from the provinces - with no formal education - became an author who satirized French society - "making fun of everything and everyone," - as George Sand remembered him.
We already know that he fought in Napoleon's army. Eloise - do you think the reason many love Napoleon, regard him as a hero admire the young Napoleon, who with his ragtag army managed to overthrow the establishment?

Traudee has posted that Stendhal lived in Italy for a number of years - probably after Napoleon was exiled?
When did this soldier turn into an author?

JoanP, I said: "I don't think we can judge a book by the behavior of the author." When reviews described Stendhal as a raukus drunk, dancing on tables with his fur lined boots, living in debauchery, they were probably right, he might have been all that, but the novel does not leave you with that impression. I don't want to reveal the content because many have not read the book, but it is not vulgar in my opinion.

The heading says: "There is also more than a little biographical resemblance between his protagonist Julien Sorel and Stendhal"

I have read only short excerpts of Stendhal's biography since we started the discussion and except for few items during his childhood where his mother died and he was sent to a seminary, I didn't see the resemblance in the later part of the book. As far as women are concerned, what he wrote about infidelity would be considered trivial today, meaning that couples today either seperate or get divorced if they are not happy, but a divorced women was an outcast at that time in France.

Yes, you should send a copy of our comments to Robert Adams by all means, if I had the time I would do it myself.

Le Code Civil

"Ma vraie gloire, ce n'est pas d'avoir gagné quarante batailles; Waterloo effacera le souvenir de tant de victoires. Ce que rien n'effacera, ce qui vivra éternellement, c'est mon Code Civil. Il faudra pourtant le refaire dans trente ans." Napoléon à Saint Hélène

My true glory is not to have won forty battles; Waterloo will erase the memory of so many victories. What nothing will be erased, what will live eternally is my Civil Code. It must nevertheless be made again in thirty years. Napoleon at St. Helen. (my translation)

FRENCH HISTORY

Canada still uses "Le Code Napoléon", at least in Quebec.

Joan, as you mentioned, it is important to mention politics in 19th century France because it had so much influence in the life of the French. I will try and summarize some important points in that link later one.

THE CROWNING OF NAPOLEON

Here Napoleon is crowning his wife Josephine.

In the intro to the 1926 Moncrieff edition there is a wonderful info that paints Stendhal in different colors than what I have read on this site. I will quote two points that seem important.

"IN 1800 Stendhal, age 16, hehad graduated from the Ecole Centrale. He went off to war,following Napoleon into Italy, was present at the battle of Marengo , and became part of the garrison stationed at Milan; the city, forever after, closest to his heart. In 1802, after the peace of Amiens he returned to Paris to study.

"In 1807 , when the King of Prussia declared war against France, he again joined the armies of Napoleon. He saw Napoleons triumphal entry into Berlin, followed him across the steppes to Moscow, which he saw in flames, and participated in the long disastrous, retreat back home.. He seems to have been one of the few French officers who kept his head. He made it a point , during the retreat, to see that his men were fed and sheltered as best he could; he always tried, for the sake of their morale, as well as his own, to be clean shaven and well dressed.

Another factoid that seemed interesting was that the book is named after the colors of the Roulette wheel.

Judy

Judy, I think it's important that Stendahl served in Napoleon's army. I suspect this was one of those times in history when people of slightly different ages were sharply divided by being old enough or not old enough to have appreciated some historical event. (Other examples: the Depression, WWI, WWII.)

The retreat from Moscow must have been a particularly life-changing event. It was an incredibly brutal experience; they were totally unprepared for the brutal Russian winters, and their losses were fierce. Of the almost 500,000 men who set out, 10,000 returned. (No, I didn't leave out a zero.)

Here is a link to a justly famous map which tells the whole story in one picture.

Moscow retreat

The background is a stylized map of their route. The tan stripe is the route to Moscow, its width representing the number of men still alive. The black stripe is the route back, width also representing number of men; it ends up as a mere line. At the bottom, you can see the temperature at a few points along the way. It ranges from zero to minus 38 degrees Celsius, 32 to minus 36 degrees Fahrenheit.

Managing to maintain order, discipline, and morale under such circumstances would be a major character-building event.

Judy, oui, the roulette wheel. My friend who read the book also said the same thing. It never occured to me, but it makes a lot of sense and several times in the book that is exactly what is happening, a game of chance.

Pat H, that link is worth a thousand words. I saw a film about Napoleon starring Isabella Rossellini as Josephine which was excellent.

Pat H., Thanks for the map .It was an eye opener. If Stendhal was such a good soldier and officer it shows that , given the right circumstances, he had the right stuff. He may have given himself over to debauchery as a result of this nightmare experience in Russia. Hard to know. Post Traumatic Stress existed then too but it had as yet to receive its name or the understanding it receives today.

Judy

Pat H: The losses to Napoleon's army on the retreat from Moscow are staggering beyond words.

Since the plot in this book takes place during the later years of the Bourbon Restoration and the events of July 27, 28, and 29, 1830 (the July Revolution) - I have been trying to learn a bit more about this period in French History. Following is my very condensed and simplified summary of that period which I thought might be useful. Any additions anyone would like to add would be appreciated (missing from the summary is any discussion of the part played by the Roman Catholic Church as a power in French politics at that time).

Bourbon Restoration: 1814: Napoleon abdicated and the Bourbon Dynasty was restored to the throne in the person of Louis XVIII. Louis was forced to grant a written constitution (Charter of 1814) guaranteeing a bicameral legislature consisting of the Chamber of Peers (hereditary/appointive) and the Chamber of Deputies (elected) - but the vote was limited to men with considerable property holdings. Within a year of his return to the throne, Louis fled to Ghent because Napoleon returned from Elba. Waterloo ended Napoleon's rule of the Hundred Days. Louis returned and reigned until 1824. He was succeeded by his brother Charles X who reigned until 1830.

Fall of the Bourbon Restoration: Between 1827 and 1830 France saw increasingly severe economic problems. The peasants were suffering because of failing grain harvests which pushed up prices on food but Charles (bowing to pressure from wealthy landowners) refused to relax protective tariffs on grain to lower prices and ease the peasants' economic situation. In the cities the artisans were having difficulty because of decreased economic activity due to weakened purchasing power from the provinces and international pressures. Meanwhile, the liberal bloc had become the majority in the Chamber of Deputies and they began to rebel against the conservative policies of the executive and push for expansion of the franchise and more liberal economic policies. The opinions of this liberal bloc as well as news of political happenings were conveyed to the economically suffering masses by the emerging liberal press. Thus, the masses became increasingly more politicized.

July Revolution. In response to a no-confidence vote by the liberals in the Chamber of Deputies, the king attempted to alter the Charter of 1814 by issuing the Four Ordinances - these dissolved the Chamber of Deputies, restricted the press laws, restricted the franchise to the wealthiest within France, and called for immediate new elections based on this new electorate (the wealthiest). The king made these Ordinances public on July 25, 1830 - the liberal journalism machine which had gotten wind of the king's intentions was prepared. It quickly mobilized publishing articles decrying the king's actions. On July 27, the people of Paris began massing and milling in the streets. As the crowds grew larger, the military (the first military division of Paris and the Garde Royale) was called out. Rioting began. On July 28, rioting continued, barricades were thrown up throughout the city and it became clear the revolutionaries were organized and armed. On July 29, the Tuileries fell, the Louvre was taken, the Hotel de Ville was captured, and the liberal politicians set up a provisional government. On July 30, the king abdicated.

1830 - 1848: Louis-Philippe I reigned as a constitutional monarch.

1848 - the Second Republic was formed.

Glencora, thank you so much. This is exactly the sort of historical context that we need going into Stendhal's story. It is interesting to note that he has titled his bookLe Rouge et le Noir
Chronicle of 1830 A "chronicle" indicates that the account is written about a period in the past - as Glencora writes - "the plot in this book takes place during the later years of the Bourbon Restoration and the events of July 27, 28, and 29, 1830 (the July Revolution) the fact is that he was writing this novel before 1830.

Do we know how long Stendhal served with Napoleon? Did he return to support him during the 100 days before Napoleon's final defeat at Waterloo? If not, where was he at this time? It will be exciting to hear Stendhal's impressions - someone who lived through and wrote about the upheaval and revolution in France.

I will be interested to learn whether Stendhal wrote his novel to entertain his readers with a complelling Romantic tale or to satirize the French society in which he lived - following the revolution. It must be near impossible for a soldier who has seen such combat to live in a post-war society. As PatH says, the retreat from Moscow must have been a particularly life-changing event. Stendhal's Julien Sorel would have undergone this same traumatic experience on the long road home from Russia.

Stendhal wrote his own memoirs - did you know that? In 1836 he wrote The Life of Henri Brulard" which chronicles his early life and nightmarish army experience. As Judy notes, he has dramatized Julien Sorel a bit - but they shared much of the same experience. I'm hoping to get my hands on Henri Brulard for reference druing our discussion.

Here's a question that has been nagging at me - the colors in the title. I've read that Stendhal never comes right out and says what the two colors relate to. He leaves that to his readers. Judy mentions the colors of the roulette wheel. Interesting - we need to watch to see how much chance has to play in the novel - from the outset.

The most common reference I've heard is to the black of the clerical robes and the red of army uniforms. Here's my problem with that. Nearly every painting I've seen of the French military uniforms show Napoleon and his army in navy blue. Have you ever seen them in rouge? I think of British soldiers in red - but never the French.

Le Bleu et le Noir?
French Army Uniforms
Napoleonic Wars Uniforms

Joan - Good question - I knew the most accepted explanation was that the title referred to the army uniforms and clerical robes - however, it never occurred to me to actually look at the uniforms. I have tried to find an explanation - but, as you did, all I found were blue uniforms. The cuffs, collars, and some ornamentation are red - maybe that is what the red refers to. Or maybe Stendhal just didn't want to entitle the book "Black and Blue"!!! Or maybe the red refers to blood and the black to death. Interesting. Perhaps it will become clearer when we read the book.

Translated from this Link

It is under Napoleon that France has known important reforms that contributed to forge the identity of the country after the Revolution and made him one of the fathers of our institutions. After the Revolution, French people obtained new freedom and acquired civil equality. Liberated from Feudal shackles and tithing by the clergy, peasants remained under the influence of the bourgeois who were getting rich and acquiring large properties. But every one of them without exception wished for tranquility, economic stability, the end of political unrest and insecurity in the countryside. It was a goal that Bonaparte aimed for, who was then First Counsul.

The roulette colors seem to me to fit quite well. One puts one's chip on "The Red" or "The Black", n'est-ce pas?

I could not quite reconcile my idea of Stendhal as an effete young man whose stated ambition was to be a "seducer of women" and who was only in the army because of the influence of his influential relation, Daru, with an heroic soldier under Napoleon. But I have been reading his diaries and he did carry out his duties with what he called his "sang froid" Atwhich one time he was in charge of the only bread ration the army received between Smolensk and Borisov - his service was recognized by Daru in the name of the Emperor. He also helped save the life of a friend by carrying him over the Berezina bridge which was jammed by men trying to escape Cossacks..

Joan- You ask why did Stendhal write his novel. I will quote the answer in the intro by Hamilton Basso in the 1926 edition.

"Stendhal, as he sat down to write TR&TB,was an embittered, frustrated man..he was approaching fifty and time was running out. All his hopes-looks from the loveliest women, honor riches,happiness in life-were now behind him. He had dreamed of conquering life, as Napoleon had conquered an Empire, and it had been he who was conquered instead. In his new novel he would seize upon all the old ambitions,all the broken dreams, and through his Hero, Julian Sorrel, live the life he had never lived himself....let Sorrel be a pseudonym for Stendhal."

The writer also says:"Napoleon was his greatest hero, love was his deepest preoccupation".

Hamilton Basso , who wrote these words seemed to have read every word Stendhal wrote. He seems o be trustworthy in his evaluation.

Judy

JoanP, thank you for the information about the uniforms.

Judy, that is a very interesting quote. At least, Stendhal handled his disappointments with life in a creative way. Isn't it ironic? He became an author whom no one will forget. Did he realize his fame before he died? Since I know nothing about his life, I am learning so much here.

Here is the answer to my question. If I had opened my book and read the first page....duuuuh!

"His literary achievement went largely unrecognized during his lifetime, and it was left to later generations to appreciate his penetrating psychological ad social insights and his ironical humour."

If The Life of Henri Brulard, is Stendhal's memoir, why is it not given the name of Stendhal? Is Brulard just ficticious name for a true book, a memoir? In my book the name Stendhal is written. Then, in parentheses beside Stendhal, the name (Henri Beyle) is written. How did the name change take place?

- The author, Marie-Henri Beyle seems to have had a problem with the name on his birth certificate. He grew up using the name Henri Beyle. For some reason, I have yet to discover, he used many, many pen names. One source says he used 200 of them! "Stendhal" is just one of many. For his memoirs several years after he wrote The Red and the Black he used the name Henri Brulard. Same initials as Henri Beyle. I wonder if he used these names to maintain his privacy during the turbulent times of revolution. He never formally changed his name, Hats - as far as I can tell.

Glencora - I'm not ready to give up on the idea of red uniforms - since so many sources indicate the red referred to army, the black the clergy. Interesting that Stendhal himself never did explain it. Jackie, he probably would have preferred the roulette couleurs.
I like your thought too, Glencora - "maybe the red refers to blood and the black to death." Yes, we'll have to read the book before we can reach any conclusions.

I had another thought while reading Éloïse's post - "Liberated from Feudal shackles and tithing by the clergy, peasants remained under the influence of the bourgeois who were getting rich and acquiring large properties."

Since Stendhal is said to satirize both the Church and the rich, (not the army). I wonder if the black represents the clergy - and the red the nobility. Doesn't red symbolize royalty? Or am I stretching?

Thank you, Judy - as Wainey, says, Stendhal certainly channeled his disappointment in life in a creative way. Is that why he wrote The Red and the Black, then? To vent his frustration? I'm wondering about his audience. Did he need or want acceptance - or sympathy?

Maybe we are getting ahead of ourselves...it is important to remember that we are looking into Stendhal's past in this prediscussion to understand his frame of mind when writing The Red and the Black. This will not be his memoir, but rather the story of Julien Sorel who tried to pick up the pieces of his life and carry on after having served with Napoleon and lived through revolution.

There are several good articles on this author in French and I wonder if anyone is interested in a translation.

A SHORT BIO

"Stendhal was born in Grenoble on the 23rd of January 1783. His father Chérubin Beyle is a lawyer at Parliement and his Maternal grandfather Henri Gagnon is an esteemed doctor. At 7 years of age, Henri Beyle looses his mother. A sensitive child, he revolts against his father, his aunt and his teacher, l’abbé Raillane and participates passionately in the events surrounding the Revolution, where Grenoble was the cradle. He finds refuge with his maternal grandfather, the good doctor Gagnon, who knew how to talk to him and gave him a good education. Henri Beyle acquires at the Grenoble Central School a solid education and in 1799, he leaves for Paris thinking for a while of entering the Polytechnical School."

Eloise, thank you for more information on Stendhal's bio. Seven years old is a very early age to lose a mother. My mother's mother, my grandmother, died when my mother was nine years old. I am glad Stendhal had a good grandfather. It is interesting to learn about the man, Stendhal, before reading the book. It can only lead to a better understanding of the book, The Red and The Black.

Losing a mother affects a child differently at different ages. Of course it's never easy getting through life without a mother...but from my own experience, seven is a very difficult time. At seven you have a pretty good idea of what's going on around you, you can get around outside of your family circle for several hours a day at school, you have some friends, but you view the world from a protected base. Then suddenly, inexplicably, you are vulnerable.

Unless you have a very very close mother figure to guide you through everyday challenges, you have to learn to be your own guide and interpreter. It's a frightening world at seven. The hardest part is seeing other children happy and secure. You don't have the words to explain to them how you feel. You become...mute. You don't know how to reach out - to anyone. I'd have to say that losing a mother, growing up motherless is the defining event in a child's life.

You kind of invent yourself as you go - if young Henri got it wrong sometimes - it's understandable. I can understand - and forgive the boy's revolt against the authority figures in his life - the overly strict aunt, the priest, his father. They had high expectations from him without understanding his pain and loss. I agree, Hats, Stendhal was fortunate to have had his grandfather in his life.

Éloïse - thank you for bringing us information on Henri Beyle's early years. (Shall we refer to him by his legal name - or his pen name, Stendhal? In these early years he has not yet taken on Stendhal, one of many pen names.) His father,lawyer, grandfather a doctor? Of course they would see that he received an education - do we know what he intended to study at the Polytechnical School when he left for Paris at the age of 16? I'm looking to see when his interest in writing developed.

Judy brought us information the other day from the Introduction to the translation she is reading - "that Stendhal through his Hero, Julian Sorrel, lived the life he had never lived himself" I find this very moving.

"But finally, with the help of his cousin, the Count Pierre Daru, War Secretary General, he starts in 1800 a military career and rejoins the Italian Army. Italy charms him and especially Milan charming him immediately and will remain for him the ”perfect beauty” but the army bores him and he quits in 1802, thinking of starting a career in dramatic writing. In 1806, always thanks to his cousin Daru, the future Standhal resumes his duties in Germany, and in Austria as State Counsellor, lives a life of a dandy, participates in the Russian campaigns and Saxe, and falls with Napoleon in April 1814, thus recovering his freedom. Standhal then establishes himself in Milan where he will stay seven years and will write in 1814 his first book titled “The lives of Haydn, Mozart and Métastase”, under the pseudonym of Louis César Alexandre Bombet."

This is the second paragraph of 4 that gives us a general idea of the life of Stendhal. More later

”He travels often to Italy frequently goes to La Scala, which at that time was the musical temple but also the location for the Milano intelligentsia, the boxes were used as salons. He publishes in 1817 two books, History of painting in Italy, Rome, Naples and Florence under the pseudonymn Stendhal. But in 1821, after an unfortunate love affair caused by Matilde Viscontini Dembowski becomes an Austrian Police suspect, he has to leave Milan to return to Paris, which he did in June 1822.

His father’s inheritence having disappeared, Stendhal is ruined and must support himself with his pen. He is then invited to famous salons and knows a tumultuous love life. He publishes "De l’Amour" in 1822, a kind of journal of his passion for Matilde, "La Vie de Rossini in 1823, de Racine and de Shakespeare" in 1823-1825, writes a musical and pictural column in Le Journal de Paris. At 43, Stendhal becomes a novelist and publishes an analytical novel "Armance" (1827) "Promenades dans Rome" in 1829, then coming back to the analytical novel, he writes, at the end of 1830, his first masterpiece, "Le Rouge et le Noir".

Eloise - thanks for the Stendhal bio - he certainly led an exciting and eventful life. If "Stendhal through his Hero, Julian Sorrel, lived the life he had never lived himself" - that makes me very curious to actually get into the book and see what it was he hoped for himself. Biographers write about his being such a "dandy" but I have not read anywhere that he ever had a lasting love relationship -maybe that is what Julian Sorrel will find.

More info on Stendhals childhood:

"Stendhals boyhood was spent under the memory of the Revolution, which excited him and captivated his imagination...his father was a conservative royalist, his early years were not happy ones..He and his father did not get along....Until he was twelve he was educated by a priest, whose chief influence was to give him a hatred of clericalism that lasted all his life."

So, what we have is a little lad who has lost his mother and is unhappy and angry about it. He takes out his wrath on those around him-his royalist father and his cleric teacher. Is that too simplistic? It is hard to know.

One thing about Stendhal we can be certain of is that he loved Milan and the intellectual life there. On his tombstone he had engraved "Milanese".

Judy

"The July Revolution makes him the French Consul in Italy, first named at Trieste but the Austrians refused him, he is then named in 1831 at Civitavecchia where he finds a more serene climate but suffers also a profound boredom in spite of the proximity of Rome. During that period he undertakes the long unfinished work “Une position sociale” (1832). He obtains a three year vacation in France and finds again the Parisian milieu that stimulates him, “Chroniques italiennes, Mémoires d’un touriste (1838) he drafts in 1838 “La chartreuse de Parme” which will come out on the 6th of April 1839, “L’abesse de Castro” (1839). In 1829 he is sent back to his post again and will resume his work on “Laniel”.

His health deteriorates, on the 15th of March 1841 he suffers a first attack of apoplexy after which he is allowed to return to Paris to get medical attention. On the 22th of March 1842, at 1900 hours, on the sidewalk of the “Rue neuve des Capucines”, Stendhal has a second attack and dies on that night. His cousin and the executor of his will, Romain Colomb has him inhumated at the Montmartre cemetery.

The Stendhal genius will be recognized only much later, as he had himself predicted: “I will bet on a lottery ticket that the jackpot will be only this: 'to be read in 1935’”

Stendhal, who affirmed himself to be a Milanese, is still read and very appreciated in the XX1st century."

My goodness, what a complex and interesting (and unhappy) person. Thank you for the bio info, Eloise and Judy.

TRATB is one of my favorite novels so I'm very interested in joining a discussion of it. Having read the pre-discussion postings I think I'll learn a lot from this group.

If, as some have suggested, Julien Sorel is partially patterned after Stendhal, that does not extend to any similarity in their physical attributes. Stendhal was very large and Julien was slender and somewhat frail. I'll enjoy re-reading about Julien, whether or not Stendhal intended him to be somewhat autobiographical.

I'm looking forward to reading your posts when we get started on April 1.

Road King: May I be the first to welcome you. As in the Bob Barker show, "Come on down!" Your familiarity with the story will be a real asset. Glad to have you join us.

This is a riot! I'm trying to get some computer time with two sons, three grandchildren under the age of five - two dogs and the biggest mess of toys I've ever seen! The two little guys get up around 6 am....hungry, wet, need cereal, spill cereal, etc.

They'll be here until Saturday morning, so I'll be out of pocket until then. (Harold always says that, - I wonder where the expression "out of pocket" comes from? Does anyone know?

I just have time to thank Éloïse for bringing us the translation of all this biographical material. As soon as I have some time to myself, I intend to put all of it in one place with a link in the heading for reference during the April discussion.

And to second Mrs.Sherlock's welcome to you, Road King - I agree with her, your familiarity with Rouge et Noir will certainly be an asset. We've been coming to the conclusion here that Stendhal is inventing a fantasy life for Julien that he never had. But after reading your post, I am a bit confused as to why he would have portrayed his Julien as slender and frail. You'd think that Stendhal's size would have been an asset for him when serving in the army. Maybe Julien doesn't join the army? (I read this 50 years ago - and honestly don't remember.)
Oh yes, Road King, we are very glad to have you join us! Welcome !!!

I seem to recall that although Stendhal was well built he was generally considered awkward and clumsy in his movements. My memory of Julien Sorel (from the dark mists of time) is that he was finely built and elegant in movement. Maybe he was what Stendhal wished himself to be or maybe at the young age I was then I wanted Julien to be 'oh so elegant' but being a strapping girl myself I don't think I'd have wanted him too finely built...

Thanks everyone for your contributions here - they're wonderful - I can't come in as often as I would wish but when I do - what a feast! Thanks all -

Welcome Road King hope you enjoy the Red & Black adventure awaiting us. It will be fun getting to know you.

Welcome Road King, it is a pleasure to have you join us. Did you read TR&TB in the original French?

I too believe that Stendhal was physically different than Julien. He wrote the book in his forties after he had left the army and had gained some weight. He would have idealized his hero, made him everything he wished himself to be, but also if he wanted to have his book published he had to think of his audience. Remember that he relied on his pen to supply him with the income that his up scale lifestyle required.

Hi Eloise,

My French-Canadian ancestry has not, alas, given me a facility for their language, so I'm reading Scott-Moncrief's English translation of TR&TB published in 1926 by The Modern Library.

When we get into the book I may hazard a guess about why Stendhal has fashioned his main character to be physically unimposing.

I've enjoyed reading the posts on the socio-political background of the novel. In my previous readings of the book I had not considered that aspect. I have been more interested in the characters, so I'm looking forward to the challenge of reconsidering this book from a new perspective.

Hello all, Count me in, I hope. I think I can keep up even though the semester is still simmering. I got the Penguin edition of R&B--sorry purists, but I like really short abbreviations and I don't think of THE as much of a word. I promise to remember that it is there though. Twice.

Joan P--Did you read the article about the bookseller in Baghdad in today's POST? I'll go find the article and see if I can copy just a couple of sentences from it. (Of course, you didn't read it--the little boys are keeping you busy.)

I read the comments about the possible references of the title in the messages above, so this quote really hit me:

"When the Mongols sacked Baghdad in 1258, it was said that the Tigris River ran red one day, black another. The red came from the blood of nameless victims, massacred by ferocious horsemen. The black came from the ink of countless books from libraries and universities."

Red from blood; black from ink. I like it. Not the massacre, of course, but the possible symbolism of the colors.

Maryal

Maryal: I like that symbolism, too. It is a fitting explanation.

This just keeps getting better and better - a big
Welcome to both of you, Maryal & Gum!
Gum - I didn't associate Stendhal's large size with "awkward" and "clumsy" - so that would explain why he portrayed Julien as "finely built" and "elegant" in movement. Just not frail and puny and picked on, oh no, not our Julien! - I'm smiling at the image of an older Stendhal who had put on some weight - haven't we all? No wonder he slenderized his protagonist!
Road King - we're looking forward to your conjecture about "why Stendhal has fashioned his main character to be physically unimposing."

Éloïse, my eye caught your comment that the author relied on his pen to supply him with income while reading Maryal's, (Deems') comment regarding yet another possibility for the title - "Red from blood; black from ink." We'll add this to our growing list - "red for army, black for clergy" and then "red for royalty, black for clergy" -

This should be interesting - keep in mind that right up until publishing time, Stendhal planned to entitle his novel - "Julien." At the last minute, he decided on "Le Rouge et le Noir." I wonder why the change - I wonder if he thought the novel sent a broader message than the experience of this one man?

MrsSherlock - you think blood and ink a "fitting symbolism" - sounds as if you too have read the book. Can you remember how long ago that was?

Éloïse just sent me all of Stendhal's biographical information in one document for which I am very grateful. It will be easy to put it into one link - for the new heading - once my little ones head back home on Saturday. What a riot of a time here - total chaos and upheaval, but I know just how blue I will be when the house is all neat and quiet - and empty again!

Hello all. This will be the first SeniorNet book discussion I've participated in and I'm looking forward to it!

I bought the "new" translation by Burton Raffel with an introduction by Diana Johnson. I found her intro interesting; a take on an author of the 19th century by a quite modern author. I've read only a few chapters so far, but already can see that is a terrific read.

Diana W, you are welcome to The Red and The Black discussion and we are looking forward to your participation. It is an honor that you have chosen this one as your very first books discussion on SeniorNet.

- well there you are. I was looking for you after our email correspondence. Pick out a seat and get ready for a wonderful discussion

Andrea

Last night I lost a long post because AOL, my ISP, had thrown me out. It has happened before and, unfortunately, the poster does not realize it UNTIL the moment of sending.

I'm trying again tonight and hope there is no recurrence.
WELCOME to ROAD KING and DIANA W. Hello, DEEMS.

What or whom Stendhal meant with the Red and the Black will become clearer in the book. DEEMS' suggestion is most apt. We cannot rule out the influence on Stendahl of the historical events. He was a child of his time, only six years old in 1789 when the Revolution broke out. There was violence, executions (the guillotine) and a bloody aftermath, and bloodshed during the Napoleonic Wars.

France had been a monarchy for centuries and become a republic over night, with a terror regime by Robspierre, Danton and Marat, republican governments called "Convention", "Directoire" (Directory), and Consulate. Napoleon became First Consul, and in 1804, had himself crowned Emperor of the French = hence a return to the monarchy, albeit not under the Bourbons. It was short-lived.

Efforts to reinstate the Bourbons began in 1814; the period from 1814-1830 is known as Restauration = restoration.

Beyond the personal and psychological development of Julien Sorel in what could be called a "Bildungsroman", Stendhal portrays the entire society of the time, its faults, foibles, prejudices, class differences, and social climbers. (We still have them, nothing ever changes.) The author is holding up a mirror to the society. Clearly, not everyone liked that.

My French text has in the introduction a reprint of observations made in the press after the publication of this novel in 1830, and in the following century. I'd be glad to share some.

Diana - how exciting for us! We are looking forward to having you join in our next Great Books adventure. As you can see, we have some knowledgeable folks with us, some who have read the novel, some who have read it long, long ago (and forgotten it:)), and those who have never read anything by Stendhal.

Just don't feel intimidated by this prediscussion. Its only purpose is to get a feel for the period so we are ready to hit the ground running on April 1. Thanks for helping set the scene, Traudee! Julien Sorel - a child of his time - a child who grew up in a time of violence and upheaval in his country. The guillotine executions would have been enough to give any child nightmares, don't you think?

We'll be discussing the first seven chapters during the first week of April.
The "new" Raffel translation should be just fine. Some of us get exasperated with some of his modern day idiomatic translations - his attempt to bring the work to life as he believed Stendhal wrote it. Some get bored with Moncrieff's 1926 translation - saying that it reads too much like a 19th century novel - which it is.

I think it's all a matter of taste. We're lucky to have Éloïse and Traudee reading the original French. They'll keep us informed of what Stendhal actually wrote.

It really does get interesting when we have several translations going at once. Recently we discussed Don Quixote and I believe we all enjoyed the lively conversation because of the multiple translations.

Traude - cannot wait to hear of the observations in the press immediately following publication of the novel in 1830. Apparently Stendhal's readers did not appreciate his mirror image of their faults. I have read there was only one edition of his book printed in his lifetime. I wonder how many of those were remaindered...
It would probably be better to wait to hear the public's reaction until after we have read the book ourselves. Look forward to hearing about it then, Traudee - thank you!

I'd like to add to Andy's, Eloise's and Traudee's - a big

Welcome to Diana!

In my 1947 edition the Preface was written by Me Albert Naud, Lawyer of the Court of Appeal in Graves (Charante). This book is a small hard cover edition. The Preface is 10 pages long with a small tight font but it gives a very thorough analysis of the author, the story, and especially how the title came about, since this seems to be very important in the discussion. Also it describes the true criminal court case that inspired Stendhal. I would love to have the time to translate those 10 pages, but I can only post some highlights of the Preface if Joan P thinks it can shed some light on this.

JOAN P, I mentioned the press releases only because the (poor) reaction to the novel has been mentioned earlier in this prediscussion.

ÉLOÏSE, the introduction to my French text also mentions the case that inspired Stendhal to write his novel.
(But, may I respectfully ask, would even only outlining the case give us foreknowledge of what is in store ?)

Please don't reveal any information that will give away what happens in the novel because I have never read it. We can all wonder about the reason for the title until later, can't we?

My introduction has basic stuff about Stendhal's life and then another section which the translator urges the reader to come back and read after s/he has read the book. I carefully did not read that section.

Maryal

I think we have to be very careful about plot spoilers, and therefore should watch out about about revealing the details of the case that inspired Stendhal.

Those who were in the Don Quijote discussion will remember that most of us were reading either Raffel's translation or Grossman's. I had both of them, and was also reading some of it in Spanish. I would sometimes get annoyed at Raffel's translation, and would switch to Grossman, but I kept coming back to Raffel as being more readable. If he does the same sort of job here, I would expect that you would have some quibbles with the style, but on the whole would be happy with the translation.

I get the picture and I will not mention anything written in the Introduction/Preface of my version of the book.

My particular edition (copyright 1926) of the Moncrief translation has only the book chapters, then a translator's note citing the source, and the barest of biographic notes. I find part of the second sentence irritating:

"After a few years of civilian life in Paris, where he began what was to be his life-long pursuit of the opposite sex, Stendhal returned to Napoleon's army ...

IMHO that is a subjective, personal, even prejudicial observation and has no place in a biographical note. What do we gain, after all, from that knowledge ? Does it influence how we read the book ?

The translation is a library copy. I have not decided which translation to order from BN. Interestingly enough there are translations with the title "The Crimson and the Black". I'm still investigating.

The blurb in the back of the French text is tempting --and quite true, from what I dimly recall

"...: commence alors une des plus exaltantes histoires d'amour qui soit."
= ...thus begins one of the most exciting love stories there ever was.

The adj. 'exaltant(e)' is difficult to define in English, and I'd like to call on ÉLOÏSE for a better translation. Many thanks.

Traude S.

You wrote: I find part of the (translator's) second sentence irritating:

"After a few years of civilian life in Paris, where he began what was to be his life-long pursuit of the opposite sex, Stendhal returned to Napoleon's army ... IMHO that is a subjective, personal, even prejudicial observation and has no place in a biographical note. What do we gain, after all, from that knowledge ? Does it influence how we read the book ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Assuming this characterization of Stendhal might be somewhat accurate, I think I will be "influenced" in how I re-read the book. I will be on the look-out for how Julien's attitude towards women is portrayed. Is Julien an authentic character in his own right or has Stendhal put a little too much of himself in the character?

Good morning! The three little grands and their papa will spend their last day here today before getting up very early tomorrow to head home - a 14 hour car ride! Not easy when you are two, or three or almost six! I intend to spend every single precious moment with them today - big plans even though winter has returned - very cold and gray and rainy.

We're taking them on the Metro (they love the Metro!) to the National Building Museum - they've got a special children's exhibit where kids can build, ride bulldozers, etc. If it isn't swamped with busloads of preschool classes, this should be fun - out of the house.

I'll be back here tomorrow to get into the discussion of how much commentary to read before reading the novel. This has happened before - introductions so often contain spoilers that influence our reading of the book. Traudee - I agree, that does seem to be a prejudicial assessment of the author, who is in no position to defend himself. I've ordered Stendhal's autobiography - Brulard - which he wrote in 1835-36. Perhaps he confesses as much - his "life-long pursuit of the opposite sex" - and maybe that's what the translator is referring to? Perhaps.

Road King - "assuming" the characterization of Stendhal is accurate - it will be interesting to see how he portrays his wannabe self in Julien Sorel, won't it?

I really like your question - "Is Julien an authentic character in his own right or has Stendhal put a little too much of himself in the character?" I've been wondering if Stendhal wrote this novel to defend, or at least explain himself - to himself.

In the meantime, let's hold off on any more material that comments directly on the novel itself - such as the commentary of critics following the publication of the book. Have you started the first seven chapters? By the end of these chapters, I think we get a pretty good picture of life in Verrières and how the inhabitants feel about their town. Two more weeks! Can't wait!

ps - PatH - does this mean that you have decided to have another go at the novel? Sure hope so!

pps - Eloise - thank you for the offer - let's not take any chances and hold off on the court case that inspired the novel at least until we get to those chapters in the book. Some of us have not met our Julien Sorel yet. We want to give him a fair trial.

ppps - Traudee - I believe that one of Moncrieff's translatons is entitled - "The Scarlet and the Black." Add that to the growing list of the translators' titles.

I too would like clarification - "exciting" and "exalting" can mean very different kinds of love stories, don't you think?

In my vague memories of High School Stendhal (TR&TB and The Charterhouse of Parma) we read them as Historical and Political documents as we did "The Tale of Two Cities" by Dickens.

Actually it is exciting to read this a second time as a personal history of the author and his life struggles. We did not talk at all of the psychological ramifications of the story and the deep effect of the political milieu on the individual. It is wonderful to reread it from such a different point of view.

Judy

Hello all- This will be my second foray into the SeniorNet book discussion. (The first was that strange book set in New Zealand-somehow I am unable to remember the title. - Anyway, on the whole I disliked the book.) Looking forward to this discussion and I have very much enjoyed reading the comments of all of you fellow readers! I have the Everyman-Moncrieff translation and have just completed my assignment of reading the first 7 chapters! Am excited to see how the discussion proceeds.

Maribeth--I remember you! I've been scratching my head and trying to remember the title of the New Zealand book without cheating and looking it up. Was it The Bone People?

Maybe not, but I think BONE was in the title.

I'll go check.

Maryal

Welcome back! This novel, published in 1830, won't be anything like whatever the New Zealand one was.

Maribeth it was "The Bone People", by Keri Hulme that I last saw you.

Judy - as I recall you read The Red and the Black in High School in New York, is that right? Wow! A 500 page assignment! We were not that ambitious in New Jersey. We did read one Shakespeare play a year - oh, and we did read A Tale of Two Cities now that you remind me.

It was probably a good idea for a high schooler to view the R and the B as an historical or political document. I think one so young would not appreciate "the psychological ramifications of the story and the deep effect of the political milieu on the individual." Not enough life experience to understand that sort of thing yet.

We may each approach the Stendhal's story differently - the best part of these discussions is sharing insights and looking at the books in a way we would not have done on our own.

Thanks, Gingee, Maryal and Andy - for welcoming Maribeth to our group! So you have read the first seven chapters! You are more than ready!
Welcome, Maribeth!

I was lucky to find the only copy of our library's autobiography of Stendhal - The Life of Henry Brulard. It was written five years after The Red and the Black - mostly describing his early life before leaving Grenoble. The intoduction, written by the translater, states that the book was intended as a score-settling posthumous act. It wasn't published until 48 years after his death - it was that bitter and inflammatory. More about this to come. I have to believe this account will give us some insight into the man who wrote of Julien Sorel.

From what I have read so far - Stendhal adored his mother. He describes the loss of his mother as the "great formative disaster of his life," alienating him from his family. He suspects his father fell in love with his aunt, his mother's sister.

Stendhal believe's his mother's side of the family to be superior to his father - not sure why yet - thinks he was "born to the wrong father." There was an interesting aside regarding the title of the autobiography, The Life of Henry Brulard. As we know, his name was Henri Beyle. The name "Brulard came from his mother's side of the family. There had been a Father Brulard, a monk - a grand uncle on his mother's side. His grandfather had noted that there was a strong physical resemblance between the boy and Father Brulard.

"brûler" to burn. Stendhal thought of himself as a "fiery young dreamer." More about his use of the English "Harry" instead of the French, "Henri" to come.

Joan: How providential for this discussion that you found that source. Can't wait to learn more.

Joan,

If Stendhal had a penchant for pseudonyms that expressed his self-image . . ."brûler" to burn. Stendhal thought of himself as a "fiery young dreamer." . . . might we see that the names he gave to persons in his novel also hinted at their characters?

For instance, will Julien be revealed to be as ambitious (and as tragic a figure) as his namesake, Julius Caesar?

Yes, I do hope the autobiography of "Henry Brulard" will be a great help, Jackie. "Providential" as you say.

I was going to post yesterday that Stendhal purposely used the English "Henry" Brulard for his autobiography because of his "disloyal" feelings towards the current regime in France. He wrote - "I fell with Napoleon" and never seemed to recover after that.

Road King - I like your linking "Julien Sorel" to "Julius Caesar" as Napoleon, Stendhal's only hero regarded Julius Caesar as his supreme genius. I did a quick search and found a different explanation behind the choice of the name:

"Stendhal often built a character's name out of words that were descriptive, which is sometimes lost in translation as the names often don't get translated in the same way, or may have lost the immediacy of their meanings over time. Julien may be a play on Julian the Apostate, enemy of Christianity"

I haven't had a moment to look up Julian the Apostate yet.

I also did a search on Henri Beyle's choice of the pseudonym, Stendhal. Again, nothing really conclusive - One source sees the name "STENDHAL" as an anagram of "SHETLAND" (???) - but most sources believe he borrowed the name from the German city of Stendal/Stendhal where he served with Napoleon's army between 1806-10.

He left France for Italy after Napoleon's fall - and wrote a travel book on Rome, Naples and Florence published in 1817. This was the first time he used the pen name Stendhal.

ps. In my surfing, (like a runaway truck) I see yet another explanation of the symbolism behind the red and the black - The Red symbolising the church, the scarlet of cardinal's robes and the Black, symbolising the military, the uniform. Something to think about.

Reference post #26, in which Scrawler listed some French authors who were Stendhal's contemporaries. Number 4 on the list, Prosper Merimee, was personally acquainted with Beyle/Stendhal. Merimee's recollections and description of Beyle can be found on the excellent website, http://www.stendhalforever.com/hb.html

Are any of you familiar with the medieval legend of St. Julian, the Hospitaller? If so, are you struck, as I am, by some odd, coincidental references to things Red and Black in the story?

Road King,

The article about Stendhal by Merimee was fascinating. Thank you for finding it. Merimees wish for Stendhal to be rediscovered in the 20th century was granted.

Stendhal seemed to have seen women only as objects of sexual desire. It is possible to look at the loss of his own mother , and the desire for her to be there for him ,to have transmogrified into a physical desire for all women . Then again he may have developed a sexual addiction. Hard to know..

Judy

That's exactly the sort of thing I've been hoping to see before we start, Road King - how Stendhal's contemporaries viewed him. This is such a nugget! Says Prosper Merimée at Stendhal's death, "I wish to share some impressions and memories with some of his (Beyle's) friends. I will definitely include this link in the heading for the discussions as a resource. Thank you! There were a few comments that especially caught my eye attention - tomorrow there will be others, I am sure. They provided added insight into the man's character.

"It was difficult to know what he thought about Napoleon. He was almost always in disagreement with whatever side was argued. Sometimes he spoke of him as a social climber, dazzled by the finery, who never obeyed the laws of LO-GIC. Other times he would speak with an admiration approaching idolatry. One moment he was a mudslinger like Courier and the other as servile as Les Cases. The men of the empire were treated as inconsistently as their master.

He was very cheerful in company, crazy sometimes as he would often behave inappropriately and forget his manners. His conversation was often off colour, but always spiritual and original. Although he never made concessions for anyone, he was easily hurt by careless words. “I am a playful puppy and I get bitten.” He said to me. He forgot that he sometimes bit others himself, and sometimes hard. He did not understand that there were other opinions to his own on creatures and men. For example he was never able to believe that sincere believers could really exist. The priest and the royalist were always insincere to him.

He had suffered, like so many others, from the awkwardness of youth. It is a difficult thing for a young man to enter a salon. He imagines that he is being watched and always fears making mistakes.

I like to think that some literary critic in the twentieth century will discover the books of B. among the jumble of nineteenth century literature, and that he will do them the justice that they haven’t received from B.’s contemporaries. It would be nice to think that the letters of B. might be published one day. They would allow many people to know and love the man, whose spirit and whose excellent qualities now live on only in the memories of a small number of friends."

I agree with Judy, this is a find! A fascinating picture of the man. Did you notice this comment of Merimée's"? -

"B. has always seemed to me convinced of that idea, much shared at the time of the Empire, that a woman can always be seduced and that it is the duty of every man to try."

hmmm...yet another Julian. I did look up Julian the Apostate - "Christian sources commonly refer to him as Julian the Apostate, because of his rejection of Christianity. Julian the Apostate Is this Stendhal? Is this his protagonist, Julien Sorel?

Road King - I did look up Julian the Hospitaller - and see another connection that might have caught Stendhal's attention - the devotion of St. Julian to his mother - "The resemblance to the Greek mythology and Freud's Oedipus Complex theory is evident."

Hi Joan_

Some questions as to procedure. I finally sat down and looked at the book I am going to use-the B&N edition. It has 75 chapters and 532 pages. When you say to read to chapter vii -do you mean in the edition which I have? At that pace it would take months to go through. But then again you may wish to take a very leisurely stroll through the book. If the book is divided in different ways in different editions then we should,perhaps give the last sentence of the chapter you are referring to.

This is probably tedious for you but I must have missed the post, if there was one on this subject. You can refer me to that post and I will follow the instructions.

Thanks

Judy

Judy, sometimes translations are divided differently. It will be easy if each chapter has a title rather than a number, then we could go by titles. Take a look at Book 1 - Chapter 1 - is it called "A Small Town?" Is Chapter 7 called "Elective Affinities"? If we all have titles we're in good shape.

I was thinking a leisurely stroll - especially at the start. About two months? We can always speed up as we become familiar with the characters, with the period -

Joan, I have the Penguin Classics edition and Chapter 1 is "A Small Town" and Chapter 7 is "Elective Affinities" - so that edition is the same as yours.

Joan,

Thanks for the prompt reply. Yes,those are the names of my chapter 1 and 7 respectively. So I guess we will be on the same page.

Judy

I've been very interested in the information about Stendhal that has been shared in these postings. I'm disappointed though. Enjoying his novel so much, I kinda thought I would have liked to have known the author. However, from the little I've now learned about him, I suspect Monsieur Beyle is a man I would have found difficult to like. (He probably wouldn't have liked me either.)

The book discussion, so far, has exceeded my expectations. What a great way to learn a little French history!

RRoad King- we love your enthusiasm. Stick around, the fun has yet to come.

Road King - Thanks for posting the Stendhalforever link- have just found time to browse it and will take a proper read ASAP. I don't think I would have liked Stendhal much as a person either - but as a writer...yes yes and yes. I tend to think he would have been somewhat unstable, over-emotional and seriously egotistical - sometimes a good recipe for great art.

Wish my French was up to reading the orginal - but alas NO!

Hi there, Gum, Andy, Road King! I've been off reading Stendhal's autobiography - and must say that I wouldn't be too quick to say he wouldn't have liked you - and that you wouldn't like him. I'd say it depends on - your age and whether or not you appreciated his efforts.

P. Merimée was twenty years younger than Stendhal, I see. It is said that Stendhal was not appreciated by his contemporaries - and the reading public did not react well to his condemnation of their values - even if these were as shallow and hypocritical as Stendhal claimed. Who would like that? Except the young, who always seem to be rebelling against the value of their elders. They liked Stendhal because he was one of them.

I think Stendhal would have liked you all for two reasons - you are young and you admire his work!

From the autobiography - we know he had a lonely, unhappy childhood, uncomfortable in the society of Grenoble - he was too passionate, too impetuous. He had few friends at school because of his sharp tongue. He was strong in math - and this is what enabled him to leave Grenoble for advanced schooling.

I have to say, I'm not certain I believe everything he's writing in his autobiography. He writes it when he is 50 - well, he says he's nearing his 50th birthday, but actually he's 52 when he writes this. At turning 50 he expresses disbelief that he can be this old (don't we all?) He asks two questions -

What have I been?
What am I now?

He sets out to "remake a life" in the autobiography. He wants to answer this question - "Am I now the same person I've always been since a boy in Grenoble?"

We had our 50th high school reunion last spring. One of the questions we each answered before the gathering - are you today the same person you were in high school - only more so? Some very interesting answers. (It seems we are/were!)

ps. It seems that we all have chapter numbers and names. This will not be as confusing as Don Quixote was. Bern, I'm interested to know if your palm pilot has chapter numbers, chapter titles?

Joan,

You wrote in your first post, "The important function of the pre-discussion is to get to know who will be in the room with us."

Several members of the group apparently are veterans of this forum and already acquainted with one another. For the benefit of us newcomers, would it be OK to ask each member to briefly introduce herself or himself?

If I find out you're all multi-lingual college professors I'm outa here!

Road King - believe me, you are well-qualified for this discussion - the evidence is in your posts! One of the things we cherish in these discussions - is anonymity IF one so desires. You'll see lots of screen names - such as your own.

We have a good number of newcomers for The Red and the Black - so you are not alone. We have veterans of one discussion - the last one. We have ten year veterans of these Great Books discussions too.

I can tell you that we have two college-level professors in the discussion - two farmers, a nun. You name it. Oh, yes, and there are two bilinguists that I know of. We all bring a little something different to the table. You'll see. Just believe me when I say that you will fit in just fine - you already have!

Joan, you introduced Stendhal’s autobiographical question; “Am I now the same person I’ve always been since a boy in Grenoble?”

Here’s my answer to the “identity” question posed by Stendhal.

I first met nineteen year-old Julien when I was also nineteen. If memory serves, I think one of the reasons I identified with him was because he and I knew about “life” mainly from our reading. We were both small-town boys with romantic and idealistic notions of life and how to conduct ourselves in the living of it.

Revisiting The Red and the Black, I’ll relate to Julien differently than I did when he and I were both teenagers. Julien has not changed during the 48 years that have passed since I first made his acquaintance. I changed, though. With age and experience I acquired a more realistic perspective on life. I also acquired wrinkles. I wonder if I will still find young, unwrinkled Julien to be a believable character?

Have just begun reading Jonathan Keates biog which is making me wish I had the Brulard. Keates makes the point that it was Stendhal's grandfather Dr. Gagnon who fostered his voracious reading by giving him the run of his library which ultimately made Stendhal one of the best-read writers of the early nineteenth century. Stendhal's favourite reading included Don Quixote because it made him laugh. - I seem to remember he had several Seniornetters laughing along with him when we read 'Don Q' here last year.

Road King : My first reading of R&B was as an adolescent far too young to really appreciate what I was reading. Subsequent reading with an adult/mature?? perspective means that I view not only Julien but the novel itself quite differently but in no way are they diminished, rather the novel and its creator grow in stature as I become more able to appreciate their worth.

BTW I am not a 'multi-lingual college professor' but am a 'veteran' of just a couple of SN discussions mostly as a 'lurker'because I have very limited time available . I am Australian and I like to read!

gumtree: Don Quixote had me laughing! What a good book and good discussion with JoanP! I'm hoping to enjoy R&B as much. I'm certainly enjoying it and remarks so far!

I'm new to this part of senior net and was so. happy to discover the choice of "Red and Black" for April . I have had a used copy on my shelf for about six years now, and will have an incentive to start it now. Everyone seems to be knowledgeable book lovers in the messages. I've enjoyed reading all the messages and will try to keep up. AMICAH

Well look who's here - a newbie with an exotic-sounding name to add to the roster of interested parties! Oh, yes, please do take down the dusty copy from your shelf and join us, Amicah! Which translation do you have? I'll bet it's Moncrieff.

Please don't worry about keeping up - we move slowly so that I can keep up - or keep ahead. And don't be too impressed with our knowledge - we know how to google and we have generous folks here who share what they find. In the end, we're knowledgeable!
A great big WELCOME, Amicah!
I think this is going to be fun - have already started and am already smiling at Mme. de Rênal's innocent comments on her marriage. I don't dare say another word - but can promise we will have a good time with this one. So glad you will be with us on this adventure, Marni - you have a great sense of humor. Road King, I'll bet that you didn't appreciate much of Stendhal's wry humor as a young man. I can hardly wait for your reaction to Julien and his family and acquaintances as a "mature" gent.

Gum - delighted you have the Keates biography in hand. I just looked him up - he is good! I promise to share morsels from Stendhal's autobiography with you, you do the same with Jonathan Keates' biography of Stendhal - okay?

I made a few notes last night from the autobiography last pm. I remember Stendhal referring to Grandfather Gagnon too, but hasn't mentioned Don Quixote. I'm glad something made him laugh! Need notes! Will be right back.

Stendhal writes in his autobiography -

"I ought to write my life and perhaps in the end when it is finished in two or three year's time I shall know what I've been, cheerful or sad, a witty man or a fool, a man of courage or fearful, in sum, happy or unhappy."

He seems to want to write his life truthfully, without harboring illusions - but expresses concern that this is not possible. He sees himself as "a man of wit, very unfeeling, a roué even" - He asks if he's cheerful by nature. Gee, I got the feeling from other sources that he had a biting tongue and hated most of those surrounding him. Does he really think he's "cheerful"? He questions whether he has talent. Not certain about that.

Writes that the only person he could talk to was his grandfather Gagnon.

He describes himself as an unhappy lover, claims he was not promiscuous or preoccupied when he was in love. He was in love 12 times. Often "love" lasted a month. Or a day.

His family was bourgeois - with ties to nobility. He hated their hypocrisy. He writes that he was brought up exclusively by his excellent grandfather, M. Henri Gagnon.

Because of his strength in math he worked at it to get out of Grenoble to attend Polytechnical School in Paris - but once day out of Grenoble, he enlisted in the army instead in 1800. His cousin got him in - as a sergeant. He was in for three years - contracted a deathly illness and resigned in 1803. His cousin offered to arrange for him to become a colonel, but he says he was bored. He admits he never saw combat.

The first two chapters are by way of introducing the characters in his life - more on the women,his friends (He had friends!)...by the third chapter he is ready to begin at the beginning - detailed descriptions from the time he was five. Oh, wait until you hear about his love for his mother! I'll bring that to you tomorrow! His father had every right to try to keep him from her.

Stendhal's partial autobiography, The Life of Henry Brulard. arrived in today's mail. Here are a few lines from the first chapter that got my attention.

". . . I am writing this, I hope without lying, without deceiving myself, with as much pleasure as if I were writing a letter to a friend. What ideas will this friend have in 1880? how different from our own!"

Reflecting on those "friends", his future readers, he continues; . . ."This is something new for me: to be talking to people about whose turn of mind, education, prejudices and religion one is wholly ignorant! What an encouragement to speak the truth, and nothing but the truth; that's the only thing that matters."

He follows up this up by admitting, . . .“But what infinite precautions one has to take not to lie!”

Taking his words at face value one might admire Monsieur Beyle for attempting a truthful recounting of his life. Is it not a little deceptive, though, to write an autobiography and fail to even give your real name in the title? Would it be unfair to doubt the author’s commitment to the truth when his translator reveals that in the opening pages of his manuscript Stendhal wrote; “This is a novel imitated from the Vicar of Wakefield.”

Might we ask Stendhal, with a nod to Pontius Pilate, What is truth?

I'm probably wrong but I rather thought that Henri Brulard was written as a novel, albeit autobiographical. However much Stendhal wanted to write the plain unvarnished truth, surely the art of the novel and his own lifelong desire to create masterpieces demanded otherwise.

Gumtree, I agree. It's easy to find similarities between the life of the protagonist and the life of the author, but the author can idealize his characters to the point where the reader is tempted, because of his skill, to make them feel real. Isn't that what every great author looks for, to convey a timeless message. I think Stendhal reached this stage where his words still ring true today.

The translators wrote in the Foreward to The Life of Henry Brulard; . . . (this book) is a fragment of autobiography: the rough draft, unfinished and unrevised, of Stendhal's memories of childhood, boyhood and youth."

That seems plain enough to me. Henry Brulard is autobiographical, not fictional. As Joan and I have suggested, there is some evidence in this "autobiography" that Stendhal's facts were malleable. I'm asking the group to consider the possibility that Stendhal did not always make a distinction between fact and fiction. I don't judge him for that, but when we get into TRATB might we see Julien having the same tendency?

Road King: Thanks for setting me straight on the Brulard genre - I must get my hands on a copy... Stendhal (other writers too) probably can't help but merging fact and fiction in the interest of their craft whatever the genre. As for how Julien distinguishes between the two - I guess we will just have to wait to see how the story unfolds.

Oh, I agree with you - with all of you. How difficult to truthfully write one's own biography. Wouldn't the temptation be there to put a positive spin on things?

And how much more difficult for a writer of fiction to keep from embellishment as he has done with his own characters.

But as Road King points out - Stendhal seems determined to see the truth about himself - even if he slips into the fiction writer at times. The translator of my copy of Henry Brulard, John Sturrock makes much of the fact that "Henry Brulard" a math wiz, cannot remember when his beloved grandfather died - how old he himself was when it happened. Sturrock implies that this is Stendhal the author speaking - that he does know those facts exactly.

The reason I feel he is attempting to tell the truth is the inclusion of so many details he could have left out. Especially this section in which he describes his feelings towards his mother. I don't believe anyone would concoct such a story - here's a small part of it -

"My mother...was a charming woman, and I was in love with my mother.

...I wanted to cover my mother in kisses and for there not to be any clothes. She loved me passionately and kissed me often. I returned her kisses with such ardor she was as if compelled to move away. I loathed my father when he came and interrupted our kissing. I always wanted to give her them on her bosom. Kindly condescend to remember I lost her in childbirth when I was scarcely seven years old."

Stendhal was 52 when he wrote this autobiography. You have to wonder if the details of his memory didn't evolve over the years since the time he was seven?