Rime of the Ancient Mariner ~ S.T. Coleridge ~ Part II ~ Poetry
jane
October 11, 2000 - 08:25 am
~~~The Rime of the Ancient Mariner~~~
by
~Samuel Taylor Coleridge~
|
|
~
ARGUMENT ~
How a ship having passed the Line, was driven by storms to the cold
Country towards the South Pole; and how from thence she made her course
to the tropical Latitude of the Great Pacific Ocean; and of the strange
things that befell: and in what manner the Ancyent Mariner came back to
his own Country. (1798)
~ PART VI~
In which the Mariner sees the kirk again |
"I think
the Mariner in the telling is really telling about a life altering experience, one that questions the role of
external forces in how we choose to live our lives. "--YiLiLin
"A poem is really a collaboration between two people. The author and the reader. That is why
we have a number of interpretations. The poet has had his say and now we interpret it
through our own experiences." ---Annafair
"It looks like we might as well agree to disagree on the
meaning or interpretation of The Rime. And anyone having a problem with it, should keep in mind that Coleridge himself kept monkeying with
it for the next twenty years...changing, emending, adding the Gloss, to meet criticism, or reflect a change in his own thinking...etc, etc. The
resulting masterpiece has something for everyone. How you think about it, will depend on whether you are a christian, a psychologist, a
marxist, a psychoanalyst, a magician, a storyteller, or...a poet! " ---Jonathan
"They have become a community of minds, sharing their
own perspectives, insights and surprises. These posters have challenged and broadened one
anothers thinking as they have probed into the character of the Ancient Mariner. " ----ALF (Andrea)
.
|
Poetry
by Coleridge
LINKS FROM OUR READERS
Wordsworth‘s Contribution to The
Rime || Coleridge's Reading the Bible
/ Jonathan || Timeline of Coleridge's
Day / Barbara || Sailing Conditions in
1800 / Betty || Poetry by Lorrie || Poetry: The Lake Poets / Maryal || Sea Chantey / Barbara || Nautical Terms / Barbara || Albatross / Barbara || The Origin of the Drug Trade / Barbara || Opium throughout History by PBS FRONTLINE /
Barbara || Albatross, with reference to Rime / Pat || NY Times Article on the Albatross/
Stowaway || The Doldrums--Nellie || Superstitions, Myths, Strange Facts, Legends and Stories
--Mal || Flavius Josephus---Barb || Michael Psellus--- Barb || Figures of Speech --Maryal || Map of the Ship's Travels--Pat W
Original 1798 Version/ Maryal
LINKS
Text, The Rime of the Ancient Mariner || Coleridge Archive || An Analysis of Coleridge's Rime || Excellent Biography || Coleridge
Biography || Biography Mentioning Wordsworth
Collaboration || A Poet's Corner || Epitaph by Coleridge || A Coleridge Companion: A Super Article on the
Rime! || The Gloss
FURTHER READING
Coleridge, Early Visions - 1772-1804
by Richard Holmes || Coleridge, Darker Reflections, 1804-1834 by
Richard Holmes || "A Poem of Pure Imagination. An Experiment in Reading",
an essay from Selected Essays by Robert Penn Warren
SHIP´S CREW OF 25
Your Discussion Leader: Ginny Anderson
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FaithP
October 11, 2000 - 10:57 am
Well a new beginning or a new ending? . I wonder if I am the first one here? Adm'l Fop
FaithP
October 11, 2000 - 11:08 am
The curse is finally expiated.
And now this spell was snapt : once more
I viewed the ocean green,
And looked far forth, yet little saw
Of what had else been seen--
Like one, that on a lonesome road
Doth walk in fear and dread,
And having once turned round walks on,
And turns no more his head ;
Because he knows, a frightful fiend
Doth close behind him tread.
So if the curse is expediated, then why does the Mariner, once rescued beg for the Hermit to shrive his soul? This is what I meant by confusion and contradictions. I just think this whole part six is not to be understood. At least not by me.
Deems
October 11, 2000 - 02:05 pm
There are two sets of "souls" in the poem.
The men (and boys) who die in the poem have souls that fly to "bliss or woe." Later, when the bodies "come to life" again, they are inhabited for the time being by seraphim (singular--seraph), the highest order of angel. The original souls do not re-enter; instead the seraphim make the abandoned bodies workable.
Seraphim are the guardians of the throne of God, the ones who in Isaiah sing "Holy, holy, holy..." They have six wings. The seraphim in Ezekiel's vision have only four wings.
Maryal
Deems
October 11, 2000 - 05:50 pm
Mal---yes, I agree--the Seraphim come from Talmudic days. (as do the cherubim) I say "for the time being" because once the ship is safe and near where it left, the bodies fall down again and the seraphim stand on the bodies:
Each corse lay flat, lifeless and flat,
And by the holy rood!
A man all light, a seraph-man,
On every corse there stood.
This seraph-band, each waved his hand :
It was a heavenly sight!
They stood as signals to the land,
Each one a lovely light:
And then the Pilot, the pilot's boy and the hermit come rowing up. Shortly thereafter, the ship sinks with the dead bodies.
Maryal
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 11, 2000 - 11:34 pm
Some information about Coleridge says he was a
Universalist, other says he was
Unitarian and one site spoke in passing of his association with
Transcendentalists thinking. So of course-- research; what are the differences in all these philosophies. I found it extremely eye opening in that I could see the various beliefs and practices woven into our journey of the Mariner. Thinking about it of course, it is obvious, in that religious thought was still such an important basis of expression with the ‘Rights of Man’ only recently taking first place in the discourse, art and action of the western world. Those beliefs and practices that I especially see written into
The Rime.... I’ll print out in a turquoisy color. I'm also going to indicate
Universalist, printed in the
dark blue as opposed to
Unitarianism in bold.
Ginny this graphic of the symbol for
Universal Unitarianism was just too good not to share. I have no problem though if you need to remove it.
The doctrine of universal restoration was least prevalent in the darkest, and prevailed most in the most enlightened, of the earliest centuries--that it was the prevailing doctrine in the Primitive Christian Church. Because free thinkers were persecuted for hundreds of years, Unitarians and a Universalist, met together and worshipped in secret.
Unitarians' or a Universalist,' Thomas Jefferson, Isaac Newton, Henry David Thoreau, Florence Nightingale, Sylvia Plath, Susan B. Anthony, and John Milton all fought for religious tolerance and social justice.
Unitarians rejected the legitimacy of any external theological authority in general, and placed a premium on rational thought, progressive morality, classical learning, the hallmarks of Enlightenment. Instead of the dogma of
Calvinism, which intended to compel obedience, the
Unitarians stressed the importance of voluntary ethical conduct. The whole idea of "creed" as an affirmation of the individual (preferably well- educated) conscience in all matters of religion and religious belief and the ability of the intellect to discern what was ethical conduct-- a "natural theology" in which the individual could, through empirical investigation or the exercise of reason, discover the ordered and benevolent nature of the universe and of God's laws. While the rational mind could light the way, the emotions provided the drive to translate ethical knowledge into ethical conduct.
Kant, one of the greatest philosophers-- Königsberg, East Prussia, 1724, speaks of two types of discovery: empirical and priori.
-
An empirical proposition depends entirely on sense perception--most of the knowledge we gain through ordinary experience, or through science, which is empirical.
A priori judgments is known as "Transcendentalism" because Kant regarded the objects of the material world as fundamentally unknowable; from the point of view of reason. Objects of themselves have no existence, and space and time exist only as part of the mind which perceptions are measured and judged.
Universalists, organized in 1793, came together out of all the various traditions from a train of theological thought, intuition, and argument that goes more or less like this: "If you are really thinking about God, (and not just about "some aspect" or "limited attribute" of the Divine, but attempting to focus on the Divine), then it is impossible to imagine anything that does not come from God... (God is, by definition, the Eternal Source and Support of ALL), and for that reason, it is equally impossible to imagine anything that does not return to God in the end... Therefore," say the
Universalists from all their various cultural and theological perspectives, "there is NO eternal damnation..." The "universal" in "
Universalist," refers to universal salvation.
It is from this history that the classic joking comparison between
Unitarians and
Universalists emerges: "
Unitarians believe that Man is too good to be damned by God, and
Universalists believe that God is too good to condemn Man."
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 11, 2000 - 11:42 pm
Universalist Hindus,
Universalist Moslems,
Universalist Zoroastrians and Manicheans,
Universalist Jains,
Universalist Jews,
Universalist Buddhists,
Universalist Native Shamans and Medicine Women,
(the list is endless...) - ALL say, in their own cultural vernacular and particular historical contexts, that the Divine simply does not give birth to the world and suffuse it with His/Her/Their/Its Essence in order to throw any of those "pieces", or "reflections", or "sparks" away forever... The "reconciliation of each with all" may take a very, very long time - but the ultimate outcome is not in any real doubt: in the end, ALL are saved. Because of the life and ministry of the god/man, Jesus, there is no sin bad enough - there is no sinner bad enough to ultimately separated from God in the end. In the final analysis, through Jesus Christ, ALL are saved..."
They said, "There is simply no point in separating the saved' from the damned' on the basis of credal statement. All are saved, and to divide the human community up in such a fashion simply prolongs the agony, and postpones the moment of the great reconciliation. So - There shall be no creed, The community of the faithful shall be bound together by other means than credal statement...'" By saying this, the Christian Universalists were saying exactly the same thing as the Unitarians: "There is no legitimate authority in the universe superior to the authority of (preferably whole-hearted, passionate, and sincere) individual conscience"...
The Unitarians thought ill of the excessive emotionalism displayed at revivals, regarding it as a temporary burst of religious feeling that would soon dissipate. They see revelation as an external favor granted by God to assure the mind of its spiritual progress, therefore doubt that inner "revelation" without prior conscious effort represents a spiritual transformation.
Early Christian Universalist refugees from religious persecution in Europe were instrumental in the drafting and passage of the Declaration of Freedom of Conscience by the Pennsylvania Assembly in 1682, (and it is also worth noting that there was an ancient and vital tradition of "universalism" among the native peoples of North America for what appears to be thousands of years before their arrival.)
The first Bible printed in North America was published by Universalists, on a press brought over in pieces by refugee Universalist families expelled from Berlinberg, Germany.
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 11, 2000 - 11:51 pm
Calvinism (the Kirk in the Mariner is the expression used to say a Calvinistic church) of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries is the common ancestor of
Transcendentalists and
evangelical Protestantism. Transcendentalism can be understood in the context of
Unitarianism, which separated from
Orthodox Christianity during the First Great Awakening of the 1740s, stressing the value of intellectual reason as the path to divine wisdom.
Unitarians Universalism with its roots in the
Transcendentalists movement arose as a reaction against
Unitarians Christianity. The
Calvinists, conceived their religion as a quest to discover mans place in the divine scheme and the possibility of spiritual regeneration.
Unitarians acted as intermediaries between the
Calvinists and the
Transcendentalists by abandoning the notion of original sin and human imperfectability.
The ecstasy and the vision which
Calvinists, aware of depravity and sin, could experience, is filled with permanent joy if they put aside the concept of depravity, and no longer fill themselves with self-accusation but with praise and wonder.
Transcendentalists, in contrast, believed in- a monistic universe, where God is immanent in nature.
- God is permanently and directly present in all things.
- The objects of nature, including people, are all equally divine.
- The critical realization is that finding God depends on one's inner striving toward spiritual communion with the divine spirit.
- In a mystical world, one can experience direct contact with the divinity, during a walk in the woods, or through contemplation.
- The events of the natural world are not "removed" spiritual causes because there is no such separation;
- all events are both material and spiritual;
- a miracle is indeed "one with the blowing clover and the falling rain."
Transcendentalists received
inspiration from English and German Romanticism, particularly the literature of Coleridge, Wordsworth and Goethe. They expressed the
Transcendentalists ideas of human "Reason," or intuition. For
Transcendentalists, as well as the
Romantics, intuition was as reliable a source of truth as empirical investigation, which underlay the natural theology of the
Unitarians.
Transcendentalists believe God displayed his presence in every aspect of the natural world, not just at isolated times, rejecting the existence of divine miracles.
Truth lights her torch in the inner temple of every man's soul, whether patrician or plebeian, a shepherd or a philosopher, a Croesus or a beggar. It is only on the reality of this inner light, and on the fact, that it is universal, in all men, and in every man, that you can found a democracy, which shall have a firm basis, and which shall be able to survive the storms of human passions.
Unitarians believe that inner revelation was inherently unreliable and a potential lure away from the truths of religion.
Evangelicals retained a
fundamental Protestant belief in a dualistic universe: God formed the universe, but remains above it, separate from it. The creator is not one with the creation. The spiritual world is absolutely discrete from the material world, and an unbridgeable gulf divides the two; a human being can only "reach" the spiritual world through death. The one "contact point" between the material and spiritual spheres is the figure of Jesus Christ, who existed as both human being and divine envoy; people could therefore not experience God directly, but could receive an influx of the divine spirit through the mediation of Christ.
Corresponding to this gulf between the spiritual and material worlds was the
Protestant belief in supernaturalism. Certain mysterious or awe-evoking events of the material world, such as miracles and "wonders," could only be explained by reference to the spiritual world and the action of God or Christ.
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 12, 2000 - 12:17 am
Transcendentalists (for which the early Puritans had hanged people)
condoned mysticism and pantheism, or the beliefs in the potential of the human mind to commune with God and in a God who is present in all of nature, rather than a God distinct from it. Transcendentalists within a Christian theological framework, eventually moved past Christianity, as Emerson did in evolving his idea of an "oversoul."
Franz Baader, Munich, (1765-1841), attempted to "reconcile" Catholic dogma with Transcendentalism. He found no satisfaction in, reason divorced from faith. Lived in England (1791-96), where he became acquainted with the mysticism of Böhme.
In the Metaphysics of Ethics (1797) Kant writes that reason is the final authority for morality. Actions of any sort must be undertaken from a sense of duty dictated by reason, and no action performed for expediency or solely in obedience to law or custom can be regarded as moral. Kant believes in the fundamental freedom of the individual, This freedom he did not regard as the lawless freedom of anarchy, but rather as the freedom of self-government, the freedom to obey consciously the laws of the universe as revealed by reason, that the welfare of each individual should properly be regarded as an end in itself.
Transcendentalists and
Evangelicalism paralleled each other as social and philosophical forces
believing in the common people’s ability to take their spirituality into their own hands -- especially when institutions and social patterns seem increasingly alienating. Transcendentalists and
Evangelicals participate in a shift from traditional religious discourse, scriptural analysis, to language used to spark religious emotion, a change from Enlightenment to a Romantic expression of language using two metaphorical images:
the feeling of spiritual transformation and the relationship between humanity and divinity. - The first includes metaphors representing conversion as taking place "in the heart," or as hearing the "voice of God."
The second centers around images of the passage of humankind through the mortal world to the divine realm.
Where as
Unitarians try to appeal to the heart, be literate rather than pedantic, use language poetically rather than share a discourse about the ultimate last thing, death and they scorn controversy.
Transcendentalists and
Evangelicals believe
community makes individuals compatible with the social requirements of human life. Mankind collectively has a growth precisely analogous to that of the individual.
The pattern of community within both movements begins with;
- A period of isolation,
- the individual develops spiritually without social interference.
This stage entails a self-imposed separation from those people, including family and friends, who have not yet made the transition from wordiness to godliness.
Personal spiritual transformation means,
the individual is reintegrated with society, but the relationship is established on grounds different from those that previously existed.
- In this new relationship,
the individual identifies with a "subgroup" composed of other people with a similar religious outlook (generally those people who had gone through the same conversion experience).
- The new community is seen as representing the holiness to which the larger society should aspire; with a prophetic belief that society will eventually "come around" to the spiritual truth that the individual has witnessed.
Common to both movements is a
journey of pilgrims. For the
Evangelicals, the ultimate goal of the pilgrimage is heaven, being reunited with God.
Transcendentalists envision human existence as
a journey toward some unnamed destination.
Life as an uncompleted journey which one pursues at times
alone and at times with other kindred spirits, enabled both movements to assert the individual without abandoning the principle of community. The individual's spiritual journey is not supposed to end futility, in isolation, but in a reconnection with a more enriching and godly community.
Ginny
October 12, 2000 - 06:44 am
Very interesting posts, perceptions, research and questions, lots of good stuff to chew on here today.
First off, Betty, thank you very much for the kind words, that's a great quote, much appreciated.
Admiral FOP, SIR! I agree, it's most confusing and I did like Malryn's summing up of it as a concluding device in the work.
Then Malryn said, " In order to
get rid of them; to get them out of the poem, he had to convince the
reader that they had died and gone to heaven, thus the placement of
them in a very high order of angels, "the seraph band"."
And Maryal explained the seraphim.
The problem I'm having here is similar to the one Admiral FOP has, why did he then need shriving?
Barbara has printed out some intriguing thoughts, a different way of looking at things which might explain why, for instance, you might have the Seraphim coming out of men who had cursed to their dying breath. The two are mutually exclusive?
Coleridge himself, as Maryal put here, acknowledged, "they fled to bliss or woe." OK, if the WOE were nothing more than Purgatory, I guess we can extrapolate Seraphim on them and then ourselves feel pretty confident on our own death beds. Fortunately or unfortunately, Coleridge did not make the rules for formalized religious belief?
The souls flew by like the whizz of the crossbow, and they fled to bliss or woe. Now two hundred bright seraphim are over the ship and the townspeople put out a rowboat to go see this miraculous sight.
You don't have to live in the late 1700s to get chills over the very idea.
Thanks, by the way, to Pat W, for continually updaing the illustrations here, the Dore engravings are just spectacular.
OK if I can personally let up a bit on the....ramifications of the bright Seraphim attending the bodies of people who died cursing another, and see this as a concluding or...beginning of the end sort of thing, then what are we do to about Admiral FOP's question, which I was delighted to see?
"So if the curse is expediated, then why does the Mariner, once
rescued beg for the Hermit to shrive his soul?"
Precisely.
ginny
Deems
October 12, 2000 - 08:51 am
Ginny----I would love to discuss your remark in the post above about the seraphim, but I need you to clarify it.
You said, "Coleridge himself, as Maryal put here, acknowledged, "they fled to bliss or woe." OK, if the WOE were nothing more than Purgatory, I guess we can extrapolate Seraphim on them and then ourselves feel pretty confident on our own death beds."
I don't understand how purgatory got into the equation. Purgatory would not have been accepted by any of the denominations that Coleridge had personal experience with. I assume that the souls fled to Heaven (bliss) or to Hell (woe).
Seraphim are angelic beings and have never been human. They are of a completely different order. (I will spare you all the nine orders of angels. Suffice it to say that in the Christian scheme, angels are the lowest and seraphim the highest.)
Seems to me that it doesn't matter what formal denomination Coleridge was a part of since his primary devotion was to opium. Nonetheless, I really enjoyed Barbara's postings on Universalism, Unitarianism and Transcendentalism as well as Mal's. My father was a Congregational minister who often preached in both the Universalist and Unitarian Churches in Chicago and Bangor, Maine.
Maryal
Deems
October 12, 2000 - 09:34 am
Malryn----I agree with you on the Mariner. He could only find relief by retelling and retelling his story. I also think it's important that at the beginning of the poem, he is "ancient," as you point out. The man who underwent the experiences he tells of would have been middle-aged at most. Therefore, I think we can conclude that the Wedding Guest is but the most recent in a long line of listeners. And, yes, I too think that we can see the albatross as his addiction.
What I meant about addiction I probably overstated. My point is that Coleridge was an extremely educated man and also an addict. He lost a number of friends because of his addiction. Trying one more time, I think that first place in his life was taken by opium. It was his higher power. Whatever other loves he had were secondary.
Maryal
Deems
October 12, 2000 - 10:13 am
Mal---I do believe we have reached resolution---I'll go with your designation of "controlling" power.
By the way (totally off the topic of the poem here)--have you read any of Kay Jamison's books about bipolar illness and creativity? She is most interesting. She's a doctor and bipolar herself.
Maryal
Ginny
October 13, 2000 - 08:06 am
Wonderful points here today, I have read and reread Barbara's information on these (to me) different sects, looking for the one word which would make it all understandable in the light of this poem:
penance and not finding it. At least not so far.
Maryal, I only have time today to address your post, but I want to come back and address both Malryn and Barb and anybody else who has a thought here today.
One of the very great things about our Books discussions is that, occasionally, we learn something, too. I have spent a happy few days immersed in the Seraphim, both the Seraphim of the Old Testament, admirably explained here in previous posts better than I could, and that of the new, again explained somewhat in the 9 levels, etc of Christian thought of these same Seraphim, but in any instance, they do represent the hierarchy of angels, apparently. Would I be correct in that statement?
Maryal said:
Ginny----I would love to discuss your remark in the post above about the seraphim, but I
need you to clarify it.
You said, "Coleridge himself, as Maryal put here, acknowledged, "they fled to bliss or
woe." OK, if the WOE were nothing more than Purgatory, I guess we can extrapolate
Seraphim on them and then ourselves feel pretty confident on our own death beds."
I don't understand how purgatory got into the equation. Purgatory would not have been
accepted by any of the denominations that Coleridge had personal experience with. I assume
that the souls fled to Heaven (bliss) or to Hell (woe).
Seraphim are angelic beings and have never been human. They are of a completely different
order. (I will spare you all the nine orders of angels. Suffice it to say that in the Christian
scheme, angels are the lowest and seraphim the highest.)
OK, I LOVE to debate ideas, especially with such minds as we find here, I am sure I will come out on the short end, but maybe I will learn something and I sure will enjoy the process, that's for sure.
In all that I read above in Barb's explanation I did not see the word
penance. Penance, mentioned several times in the actual poem, is a tenet, it would appear, which does not pertain to any of the sects of religious or philosophic thought which Barb so carefully and completely outlined. IN fact, in the thouhts of those sects, ALL are saved. Period. Would I be correct in that?
However, in this poem we have several things which do not seem to fit into a pantheistic or naturalistic or Universalist or Transcendentalist frame, or perhaps I have not read enough on these types of things with which Coleridge himself was familiar.
Instead we have souls which fled to bliss or woe? OK and then we have the bodies of these souls who died with a curse on their lips and in their eyes are attended by
Seraphim, of all things, the highest order of angels. I have given this lots of thought. Why Seraphim, particularly? What is Coleridge saying here?
I was attempting a bit of humor in stating that if the original souls fled to bliss or woe, I am assuming the "woe," was Purgatory, since I believe NO instance has ever occurred of souls attended by Seraphim in Hell? Thus I was saying that hooray for me, I can die in sin but expect to be attended not only by an angel but by the Seraphim: I've made the big time, that's good news.
If Coleridge did not ascribe personally to a religious belief which included Purgatory, then neither would he be talking about penance, would he? Nor shriving of a soul, nor washing away the Albatross's blood.
You may say, oh but the Seraphim did not attend the
souls, those souls fled to bliss or woe, they attended the shell, the body only.
Well once again, why would they do that? Wny not attach themselves to the mast? I know you are familiar with the Old Testament, "Yet though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." Why would Seraphim attach themselves to the bodies still reeking of sin:
(The pang, the curse, with which they died,
Had never passed away.)
I'm saying here that unless I severely misunderstand what I read above about the doctrines of those sects with which apparently Coleridge himself had a passing aquaintence, his theology here is either extremely mixed up or is there for a reason.
You can't just pick up a saint here or a Seraphim there, repentance and penance here and the grace of the Holy Mother (gloss, Part V) there, blessings here, and a curse there and mix it all in, mentioning Hell in one place and woe in another and explain it as not part of the religions tenets that Coleridge seemed to hold.
I continue to wonder about the other Mariners. Their bodies did not rot nor reek. I assume you are familiar with the recent exhumation of Piux IX, Popo Nono and his miraculously preserved state.
I think Coleridge is saying something in these other Mariners and I think we've essentially missed it and I want to find out what it is, if I can.
What are YOUR thoughts?
Great point, Maryal, back with Barb and Malryn this evening, I hope.
Cap'n Wondering
FaithP
October 13, 2000 - 12:59 pm
I Quote Ginny"You can't just pick up a saint here or a Seraphim there, repentance and penance here and the grace of the Holy Mother (gloss, Part V) there, blessings here, and a curse there and mix it all in, mentioning Hell in one place and woe in another and explain it as not part of the religions tenets that Coleridge seemed to hold". Oh Cap't Hopefull this is just what Coleridge is doing all through his rhyme. He has confused you and me if we try to make sense out of his theology. He writes as he wishes to and doesn't stick to a single theological point.Yet his writing of the rhyme is in all ways wonderful and full of horror. Malryn got it when she saw the writers device he uses to bring the close to the tale. He does not mention penance as such yet he shows the mariner paying the price of the error he made shooting the bird, paying and paying through his whold life after the horror of this experience this "TRIP" much like any drug induced trip. I for one have no intention of trying to make sense of this confusion nor finding conflict either where none exists.. Adm'l Fop
Malryn (Mal)
October 13, 2000 - 01:57 pm
Here's what some of Coleridge's contemporaries thought:
"Wordsworth, sensing trouble (with interpretation of the Rime by readers), had taken the opportunity in his brief 'Advertisement' to Lyrical Ballads to declare
that, while the poem had been 'professedly written in imitation of the style, as well as of the spirit of the elder
poets', its language, 'with a few exceptions', had been 'equally intelligible for these three last centuries'.
"The earliest reviewers, however, were unconvinced: 'We are not pleased with it', said the Analytical
Review in December 1798; 'in our opinion it has more of the extravagance of a mad german poet, than of the
simplicity of our ancient ballad writers'.
"But far more confusing and unsettling to contemporary readers than its
style was the content of The Ancyent Marinere, which appeared wildly incoherent and unintelligible. No one had
any idea what it was about; and, never having encountered a poem remotely like it, no one had any idea what to
make of it. 'We do not sufficiently understand the story to analyse it", said Robert Southey; 'it is a Dutch attempt
at German sublimity.'
"And Charles Burney dismissed it contemptuously as 'the strangest story of a cock
and a bull that we ever saw on paper', although he did admit that 'there are in it poetical touches of an exquisite
kind'. These reactions are typical of the defensive perplexity into which The Ancyent Marinere threw
contemporary readers."
FaithP
October 13, 2000 - 04:08 pm
Malryn do you think perhaps Wordsworth knew in advance that the so called ballad would be ill received and therefor gave no byline to Colridge when he (Wordsworth) put together his anthology, published the Rime with unknown author? Fp
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 13, 2000 - 06:59 pm
Ok, again, for me there are no wrong answers and we only bring to a poem or piece of literature not only training and education but our life experiences that allows us to see like a Rauschach test something that is understood by us alone and touches us. Sometimes the picture painted is so universal that the author does write to the 'everyman' in all of us but as the universe is evolving so are we.
As Malryn pointed out Trancendentalism is a philosophy and yes but according to the research available it was also a religion practiced especially active in the 1820s through 1860s. It may be though Malryn we each define religion differently but the sites did speak about a practicing religion. I know some do not see Taoism as a religion either and yet, there are Tao temples and monistaries. Again semantics.
I was excited to learn that Universalist was part of the very early church and the thinking of Plato. That for years the two Universalists and Unitarians were seperate groups and only joined in recent history. But than several articles pointed out that every religion has a Universalist approach.
While I read about these movements and philosophies I was able to compare the philosophies to my own view of God. That is when I realized many religions share similar theology just using different words to discribe these mystical truths of God in the Universe. I also think Coleridge, a well read man, was probably familiar with the philosophy of all these groups and the thinking probably co-mingled with his childhood experiences as well as, the concepts of the Church of England.
I would never have know of the words Universalist or Trancendentalism had I not read this poem but they philosophy of both is closer to my personal understand of God. Not only was I educated by the Benedictines and Carmalites, both contemplative versions of Catholicism but in the '70s there was a small group of us that spent over a year with a Catholic priest and an Episcopal minister studing Process Theology using Texts by White, an Episcopal theologian. The concept being that God is growing as the Universe is growing.
Also, I still remember Sister Margerat Mary in the second grade explaining the "Body of Christ" by point to each of us and saying a body part. I remember I was God's thumb and my best friend was God's big toe and another was God's pinkie finger-- on and on the concept of us being part of the "Body of Christ" that we would celebrate when we recieved our First Holy Communion that Spring. Along with a later truth I learned, maybe 7th grade, that the entire universe is within a grain of sand and therefore, I am a vessal, a microcosim, containing and reflecting all mankind, the universe and God. And still later I learned when others get on my nerves that I should look to myself to find where the thinking or behavior lurks in me.
Understanding a poem using Eng. Lit 204 to analyse a poem is fine but for me what stays with me is based on my external realities affecting my internal reality, my life experiences, affecting my heart.
My thought on penance is; as we can give love we can also receive love, therefore, as we can give acts or thoughts of penance we can also receive penance. I also believe no one will be able to satisfy another with the extent, or sincerity of their penance. We all have our own concept of the pain of the sin and no one is capable of relieving that pain with "proper" penance. How do we go about using "our judgement" to measure the worthiness of the penance. That is why to me forgivness is so hard especially when some acts seem unforgivable. Once I learned you do not necessarily have to like the perpetrator only detach and wish h/im/er well to commune with their God and that is all that is required and than we can get on with our lives.
For me the feeling of abandonment, lonliness and fear when all the sailors are dead, all that nurishes is unavailable, and being surrounded by evil,water-snakes, is the Mariners penance. The penance that he receives. Later as the story-telling ancient he is offering his penance.
"Universalists saying, "There is simply no point in separating the saved' from the damned' on the basis of credal statement. All are saved, and to divide the human community up in such a fashion simply prolongs the agony, and postpones the moment of the great reconciliation." to me is illustrated by Coleridge when the Mariner is alone but surrounded by evil, water-snakes, that he accepts as worthy.
"The Calvinists, conceived their religion as a quest to discover mans place in the divine scheme and the possibility of spiritual regeneration." To me is the analagy for the poem.
"Transcendentalists condoned mysticism and pantheism, or the beliefs in the potential of the human mind to commune with God and in a God who is present in all of nature, rather than a God distinct from it." I see as the basis of the tone of the poem with nature used in metaphor and allusion. The albatrose, pantheism, I see as a spiritual figure representing God the Holy Spirit.
"Transcendentalists and Evangelicals shift from traditional religious discourse, scriptural analysis ... from Enlightenment to a Romantic expression of language using two metaphorical images: the feeling of spiritual transformation and the relationship between humanity and divinity. The first includes metaphors representing conversion as taking place "in the heart," or as hearing the"voice of God." " And we have the Mariner hearing the voice of angles and possibly God.
"Transcendentalists and Evangelicals believe community makes individuals compatible with the social requirements of human life. Mankind collectively has a growth precisely analogous to that of the individual." The Mariner's growth is reflected by the sailors being infused with seraphims which happens after the Mariner experienced spritual penance.
"Spiritual growth begins with a period of isolation-- This stage entails a self-imposed separation from those people." (penance??) (when children are punished they are often sent to their rooms-- would this be the penance children make toward the injury they perpetrated?) (Few children are taught to care for the feelings of the one they hurt and any longer they are not even taught to repair what they damage. How does this coincide with our Christian concept of atonment and redemption? But than Atonment means amends or reparation, reconciliation with God after having transgressed where as, Penance the expression Coleridge uses in his poem, means an act of self-mortification or devotion performed to show sorrow for a sin or wrongdoing.) Have critiques substituded atonment for penance when analysing the poem?
"Common to both movements is a journey of pilgrims." need we say.
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 13, 2000 - 07:15 pm
This is what Burton Raffel says in his book
How to Read a Poem Poetry is a disciplined, compact verbal utterance, in some more or less musical mode, dealing with aspects of internal or external reality in some meaningful way.
Metaphor is a poetic device which sits at the center of most poetic expression, in virtually all languages and in almost all historical periods mixing literal and non literal expressions. Metaphorical structue can be thousands of years old based in symbolism or using a phrase or impression underlineing aspects of truth or person, thing, condition being compared.
Like all the arts, poetry is a complex meshing of substance and manner, of thought and form, of argument and technique.
Not every poem shares the divices widely used in the tradition of poetry, which are: - rhyme,
- alliteration (the use of words beginning with the same consonant or with no consonant)
- Repetition, Refrain
- Allusion, Acrostics (the first word in each line as a steppingstone put together says something)
- Parody
- Onomatopoeia (verbal symbols communicated as meaning)
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 13, 2000 - 08:36 pm
Yes Malryn I did find the sites that spoke of Emerson and others in the Literary fields that embraced the philosophy of Transcendentalism . So I rechecked my resources and I'm typing out this. The answer may be in the last sentence-- they were evidently such a small group that they may have become lost to the bigger influence-- the literary group.
During the first decade of the nineteenth century, Unitarians effectively captured Harvard with the election of Rev. Henry Ware Sr. as Hollis Professor of Divinity in 1805 and of Rev. John Thorton Kirkland as President in 1810. It was at Harvard that most of the younger generation of Transcendentalists received their education, and it was here that their rebellion against Unitarianism began. It would be misleading, however, to say that Transcendentalism entailed a rejection of Unitarianism; rather, it evolved almost as an organic consequence of its parent religion. By opening the door wide to the exercise of the intellect and free conscience, and encouraging the individual in his quest for divine meaning, Unitarians had unwittingly sowed the seeds of the Transcendentalist "revolt."
The Transcendentalists felt that something was lacking in Unitarianism. Sobriety, mildness and calm rationalism failed to satisfy that side of the Transcendentalists which yearned for a more intense spiritual experience.
For the Transcendentalists, the critical realization, or conviction, was that finding God depended on neither orthodox creedalism nor the Unitarians' sensible exercise of virtue, but on one's inner striving toward spiritual communion with the divine spirit. From this wellspring of belief would flow all the rest of their religious philosophy.
Transcendentalists, who never claimed enough members to become a significant religious movement, bequeathed an invaluable legacy to American literature and philosophy.
I hear you when you say you cannot see any of this thinking in the poem. Looks like we do all bring something different to understanding a poem. I love this quote from the Bill Moyers' book
Fooling with Words--
"For most people, poetry is a solitary affair, like meditaion or prayer. Edward Hirsch, in his fine new book on how to read a poem, describes poetry as "a passionately private communication from a soul to another soul" and the best time for reading is "the middle of the night."
...Poetry is not only a private act between consenting poet and reader, it is a public act as well. I have seen poems work their magic on thousands of people at once. The effect can be physical, like the "breathless arousal" that attended religious revivals in my native South...The effect can be intellectual, quietly opening the mind to a new way of seeing...And it can be spiritual, a moment of transcendence, like the mystery of communion in a congregation of believers.
"Poems communicate before they are understood...Let the poem work in you as a human experiece. Listen to the words, and pay attention to the feelings they evoke.""
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 13, 2000 - 11:39 pm
Full day tomorrow and Sunday so I better post this now. I took the lines that I thought said something, not necessarily describing further what the previous line said and grouped them. I started with the Mariner's Penance?? experience. Than using my copy of
An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C.Cooper in parenthesis I shared the symbolic meaning. For me this added oodles to seeing the poem in a spiritual context.
The line that starts with the orphan's curse-- what is the orphan's curse? No symbolism here and so I tried to research what being orphaned as a child feels like. This is what I came up with: feeling abandoned, not belonging to a social group, knowing loss, little trust in security.
- An orphan's curse would drag to hell
A spirit from on high;
But oh! more horrible than that
Is the curse in a dead man's eye! (the light of the body, the faculty of intuitive vision)
Seven (the number of the universe, completeness, totality, the first number that contains spiritual and temporal, stagnation, safety, plenty) days, (long periods of time)
seven nights,(pre-natal darkness, preceding rebirth or initiation and illumination, Hesiod said "the Mother of the Gods", chaos, death, madness, enveloping)
I saw that curse--
And yet I could not die.
- he yearneth toward the journeying Moon, and the stars, that still sojourn, yet still move onward; and everywhere the
blue (truth, Intellect, revelation, wisdom, Loyalty, peace, the Holy Mother, sky powers, the Void, infinite space, containing everything) sky (transcendence, infinity, the realm of bliss, sovereignty, order in the universe, the Heavens) belongs to them, and is their native country and their own natural homes,(A wold center, protection. The center of initiation, descent into darkness before rebirth and regeneration) which they enter unannounced, as lords that are certainly expected and yet there is a silent joy at their arrival.
- Beyond the shadow (the negative principle as opposed to the positive of the sun)
of the ship, (the ship of salvation, safety from temptation, the Ark the womb, the cradle)
I watched the water-snakes:(Christ as wisdom and raised on the Tree of Life as a sacrifice, the Devil, the enemy of God, the agent of the Fall, evil that man must overcome in himself, with the Tree of Knowledge it becomes Lucifer)
Within the shadow of the ship
I watched their rich attire: (clothing particularly a cloak: ambvalent as both a symbol dignity but also a disguise, withdrawal, obscurity, darkness, secretive)
- He blesseth them in his heart.(The center of being both physical and spiritual, the central wisdom of feeling as opposed the the head-wisdom of reason, both are intelligence, compassion, understanding, love, charity, contains the life-blood, courage, joy and sorrow)
- The self-same moment I could pray;
And from my neck so free
The Albatross fell off, and sank
Like lead (the heavy sick condition of human existence or the soul, subject to the work of transforming and transmuting)
into the sea.
- By grace (Three Graces, Beauty, Love, Pleasure, giving Receiving, Requiting) of the holy Mother,(Holy Mother, all enclosed places such as the Ark, the living spring. A bridge leading to heaven, the bearer of light, transforming power) the ancient Mariner is refreshed with rain.(Diving blessing, revelation, heavenly influence, beatitude, gods fertilize the earth by rain)
- Sure I had drunken in my dreams,(the workshop of evolution, the workings of the unconscious)
And still my body drank. (absorbing diving life and power)
And soon I heard a roaring wind:
But with its sound it shook the sails, (the Spirit as breath or wind, inconstancy, the Holy Spirit, fertility, increasing power)
The upper air burst into life! (Spark: the vital principle, the soul, fire)
The wan stars (divine guidance and fevour) danced between.
And the coming wind did roar more loud,
And the sails did sigh like sedge, (any of numerous plants resembling grass but with solid rather than hollow stem)
And the rain (divine blessings, revelation, beatitude, heavenly influence, purification, spiritual revelation, “God fertilizes the earth with rain)
poured down from one black cloud;
The Moon was at its edge. (The waxing moon is light, growth, regeneration)
The thick black (the prince of darkness, Hell, sorrow, mourning, humiliation, spiritual darkness, despair, corruption. a Void)
cloud (the unseen God veiling the sky) was cleft, and still
The Moon (the ship of light in the sea of night. Christian: the moon with the sun represents the duel nature of Christ. )
was at its side:
Like waters (the source of all potentialities in existence, washes away the old life and sanctifies the new, renewal, cleansing, baptism. A spring depicts Christ as the fountain of life, a fountain represents the Virgin Mary)
shot from some high crag, (Water gushing from the rock signifies the waters of baptism and salvation pouring from the Church. Christ is the rock, the source of living waters and the pure river of the Gospels, strength, refuge, steadfastness the symbol of Peter)
The lightning (spiritual illumination, descent of power, sudden realization of truth cutting across time and space, the Eternal now)
fell with never a jag,
A river (the Gospels flowing from Christ, the flux of the world in manifestation, The river of life in the realm of the divinity) steep and wide.
The loud wind never reached the ship,( "Old Ship Zion" in the midst of the ocean, a storm comes on, and, as sailors say, she labors very hard and sailors jump overboard. "Old Ship Zion," symbolizes staying aboard, that there is wisdom in doing as we are all told)
Yet now the ship moved on!
Beneath the lightning and the Moon
The dead (the dead are all seeing, death to earthly life precedes spiritual rebirth) men gave a groan.
They groaned, they stirred, they all uprose,
Nor spake, nor moved their eyes; (the light of the body, the faculty of intuitive vision)
It had been strange, even in a dream, (the workshop of evolution, the workings of the unconscious)
To have seen those dead men rise.
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 14, 2000 - 01:38 am
I'll see if I can find it Malryn thanks -- OK here is more - trying to get to the end part six.
- The helmsman (God is at the helm and will save all who are determined to be saved, also symbolizes a leap of faith, trust in the Lord) steered, the ship moved on;
Yet never a breeze (The Spirit, the vial breath of the universe, the power of the spirit in sustaining life and holding it together, hence the symbolic association with cords, ropes, thread) up-blew;
The mariners all 'gan work the ropes,
They raised their limbs like lifeless tools--
The body of my brother's (conflicting powers of light and darkness, the necessity of opposites in the dualistic realm of manifestation, Cain and Able) son (The double living image, the alter ego)
Stood by me, knee to knee:(The generative force, recognition of paternity, homage to a superior, submission and inferiority)
The body and I pulled at one (unity, isolation, God the Father) rope,
But he said nought to me.
-
But not by the souls of the men, nor by daemons of earth or middle air, but by a blessed troupe of angelic spirits, sent down by the invocation of the guardian saint.
- 'Twas not those souls that fled in pain,
But a troop of spirits (angles are Messengers of God, intermediaries between God and man, heaven and this world) blest:
I heard the sky-lark sing;
Now like a lonely flute; (equated with anguish and the extemes of emotion. the Sirens as seduction and emotions)
That makes the heavens (heaven and earth represent spirit and matter, the Father and Mother principles) be mute.
It ceased; yet still the sails made on
A pleasant noise till noon, (twelve - the return to chaos at the Winter Solstice)
The sails at noon left off their tune,
And the ship stood still also.
The Sun,(all seeing divinity and its power) right up above the mast, (the axis mundi signifies the tree of life)
Had fixed her to the ocean: (the sea of life, chaos, formless, the source of all life containing all potential)
Then like a pawing horse (the steeds of oceanic gods, both a life and death symbol, intellect, wisdom, reason, nobility, power, fleetness, swiftness of thoughÝ, the swift passage of life, courage) let go,
It flung the blood into my head, (intelligence and folly , honor and dishonor, the wreath of Victory are placed on the head as is the ashes of mourning and penitence. The seat of life-force)
And I fell down in a swound.
- The Polar Spirit's (this has been discussed in an earlier post-- “the Pole of the Earth” the world axis, the cosmic center, stabilizing force) fellow daemons, the invisible inhabitants of the element, take part in his wrong, and two of them relate, one to the other, that penance long and heavy hath been accorded to the Polar Spirit, who returneth southward. (Noonday sun, youth, warmth, the winged lion, Summer)
- How long in that same fit I lay,
But ere my living life returned,
I heard and in my soul (usually dopicted as a bird taking flight) discerned
Two (two natures of Christ, God and man) voices in the air.
'Is it he?' quoth one, 'Is this the man?
By him who died on cross, (salvation through Christ's suffering, redemption, atonement, faith, the acceptance of death or suffering and sacrifice, The cause of the fall, the tree of knowledge, becomes the instrument of redemption, mercy and judgment)
With his cruel bow (wordly power) he laid full low
The harmless Albatross.
The other was a softer voice,
Quoth he, 'The man hath penance done,
And penance more will do.'
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 14, 2000 - 02:07 am
- What makes that ship (setting out on the sea of life, also crossing the waters of death, the Ark, cradle) drive on so fast?
What is the ocean (chaos, formless, endless motion, containing al potential) doing?'
- The Mariner hath been cast into a trance; for the angelic power causeth the vessel to drive northward (Coldness, darkness, obscurity, the region of Lucifer, the churches work to convert the heathen, the land of the dead, night, Winter, old age) faster than human life could endure.
- Fly, (Transcdence, the release of the spirit from the limitations of matter, release of the spirit of the dead, passage from one plane to another, access to a superhuman state. Travel on the Wind is spiritual release)
brother,(two sides of mans nature, day and night, celestial and primaeval, ego and alter ego)
fly! more high, more high!
- The supernatural motion is retarded;the Mariner awakes, and his penance begins anew.
- The pang, the curse, with which they died,
Had never passed away:
And now this spell was snapt: once more
I viewed the ocean green, (hope, growth of Holy Spirit in man, triumph over life, Spring over Winter, The color of the Trinity)
Like one, that on a lonesome road
Doth walk in fear and dread,
And turns no more his head (intelligence and folly , honor and dishonor, the wreath of Victory are placed on the head as is the ashes of mourning and penitence. The seat of life-force)
It mingled strangely with my fears,
Sweetly, sweetly blew the breeze--
On me alone it blew.
Oh! dream of joy! is this indeed
- The light-house (source of light, manifestation of divinity, life, truth, the power of dispelling evil and forces of darkness, glory, joy, the beginning and the end, The light of the world, purification)
the kirk
mine own countree
the harbour
- And on the bay (the renewal of life, immortality, resurrection, glory)
the moonlight lay,
And the shadow (the negative principle as opposed to the positive of the sun)
of the Moon. (the ship of light in the sea of night. Christian symbolism: the moon with the sun represents the duel nature of Christ. Greek: Moira, the moon goddess was above the gods and the three Fates are the power of the destiny of the moon)
Each corse (latin for a corpse) lay flat, lifeless and flat,
And, by the holy rood!
- Adam being on the point of death, Eve and Seth go to Paradise to ask the guardian angel for the healing oil of life. Seth, as fallen man, is denied entrance to Paradise, and instead of the oil the angel gives him three pips of cedar, cypress and pine. When Seth returns to his father, he finds Adam already dead; he places the three pips under Adam’s tongue, and, God having given Adam’s body to Michael, it is buried by the four archangels in Paradise.
The pips fructify in the ground, and from them spring three rods, which remain green until the time of Moses.
The Old English version begins at this point and tells how Moses, having led the children of Israel over the Red Sea, lies down to rest, and, in the morning, finds that three rods have sprung up, one at his head, and one at each side. With these rods he makes sweet the bitter waters, and the host continues its journey to Arabia. Hither David, whom the legend represents as contemporary with Moses, is sent to demand the rods, and it is revealed to him in a vision that they betoken the Trinity. He carries them to Jerusalem, where there is a pit of water so bitter that none can taste of it. The rods are placed in it, and they join together into a mighty tree, the growth of which is marked by silver rings.
After the death of David, Solomon attempts to use the tree for the building of the Temple; but, owing to the fact that it continually alters in length, this proves impossible, and it remains untouched within the sanctuary. Finally, when the Jews seek for a tree on which to crucify Christ, they remember this rood, and use part of it for the cross.
A man all light,(Christ the light of the world, the Father of lights with whom there is no variableness, cosmic creation, primordial intellect, life turth, direct knowledge, the source of goodness, the first thing created, the power of dispelling evil) a seraph-man (divine love, the fervour of devotion. The fire of Charity)
But soon I heard the dash of oars, (power, skill, knowledge, the spear that stirs the primordial ocean, the pole which guides the Ship of the Dead across the waters to the other shore)
I heard the Pilot's (God is called the Pilot of the soul) cheer;
The Pilot and the Pilot's boy,
Dear Lord in Heaven! it was a joy
I saw a third--(multiplicity, growth, creative powers, the first number with all, the power of three is universal, body, soul, spirit, three gifts of the magi, the Trinity) I heard his voice:
It is the Hermit good!
He singeth (temptation, distraction of man from his true goal, luring him to temporal attractions and spiritual death, caught in the lures of the sensual) loud his godly hymns
That he makes in the wood. (The wholeness of the primordial, paradisal state which gives shelter at birth and death in the cradle and the coffin. Wood is the prima materia of the East, hense Christ as a carpenter, using tools symbolic of divine power of bringing order out of chaos.)
He'll shrieve my soul, he'll wash away
The Albatross's blood. (the life principle, the soul, strength, the rejuvenating force, the life of the body symbolized with water as the life of the spirit)
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 14, 2000 - 08:06 am
Aw com'on Malryn we all know that symbolism is in much of our speech and knowing the symbols is like knowing who is selling gas with a flying horse symbol and who is cutting hair with a red and white striped pole..
This is supposed to be fun, Malryn, and sharing this information gives us another look. Now if your not interested, so be it, but com'on let us have our coffee klatch party here.
Deems
October 14, 2000 - 08:32 am
WOW----Here I am about thirty fulsome posts behind with not much time and much desire to say something about the poem.
Surely we all bring to a text ourselves and our interests; everyone who reads participates in the creation of the work. However, there are public meanings and private meanings. For example, say that I once had a pet albatross. I raised this bird from youth (his) and he thought of me as his mother and protector. And then after five years of being my steadfast companion, he was lost in a storm. Years later, browsing in the library, I come across this poem. When I get to the point where the Mariner tells of shooting the albatross I am shocked and horrified. In my heart, I condemn this fictional character. Did he not know what he was doing? How could anyone for no reason shoot such a fine bird? Now that would be a personal reaction, one that not many readers of the poem have.
When I read this poem I see apparatus, references, and furniture brought from Coleridge's background and reading, some supernatural, some more familiar. Penance is a word that applies even outside the sphere of formal religion. The idea of "making amends" that is so important in 12-step programs is a form of penance. One tries to make up for what one has done in the past, whether or not one knew at the time what one was doing. I think this aspect of penance or "making amends" fits the poem well since the Mariner does not seem to have a motive for killing the albatross and does not seem to understand what he has done until way after the fact.
I agree with Faith that Coleridge has selected apples, oranges, kiwi fruit, carrots, bedsprings, and cobwebs and mixed them together in this poem, probably as a result of rewriting.
I also think that Coleridge does exactly what Ginny says you can't do, taking a seraph from here and a supernatural being from there. The poem is a hodge-podge for me. There is no coherent system that I can apply to it that will make all the parts fit and stay still and behave.
Anyway, I really enjoy reading all these responses and am fascinated, once again, at what readers bring to and get from poems.
maryal
robert b. iadeluca
October 14, 2000 - 09:17 am
As I said way at the beginning, Cabin Boys remain relatively obscure.
Robby
Ginny
October 14, 2000 - 10:17 am
Well I'm going to give my personal opinion and say that I think that ANY poem which could stir up our ideas and comments for over 1,000 posts and counting is a pretty darn good one and we're a pretty darn good crew.
As the Gilbert and Sullivan opera goes, "I command a right good crew."
Sooo penance we're saying is NOT only a religious tenet? Well well, now we know. The thing, then, Admiral FOP and Midshipman IRK, is a swirling kaleidescope and not to be made sense of. And I think Mal said the same. And I did appreciate all Barb's hard work in bringing all the research here, I sure am learning stuff, myself, and it's never too late, either.
ANDDDD to make it even worse, my refrence materials have mysteriously disappeared! My Riverside, my Matlak, all gone. I feel mysteriously plagued, almost like in a swound, perhaps that IS the voice of Seraphim I hear! (don't hold your breath)....hahahahaa
So lacking any Freudian examples which I duitifully underlined, nor erudite perceptions this morning, I guess I have to ask: who do you feel sorry for on this ship, if anybody? Do you feel sorry for anybody in the poem at all?
The Mariner?
The Wedding Guest?
The Albatross?
The Hermit?
The Other Mariners?
The Pilot's Boy?
Those Getting Married?
Do you have any sympathy for any of them?
You know, I've really enjoyed this and we have one part more to go. Here we all are, on our own voyages through life. Some of us have sailed along with no squalls and others have been through indredible storms. No ship sets out hoping to encounter problems, can't you feel for the Mariner a little bit? I feel sorrier for the othe Mariners, they have been on my mind since the beginning because they never had a chance and he does.
Cap'n Lost at Sea
Jonathan
October 14, 2000 - 08:33 pm
Can't you just see Coleridge working on Part VI, listening, looking over his shoulder, hoping the Gentleman from Porlock will bail him out. We're not the first to feel that, perhaps, the Rime is a little too long. It's not, judgeing by the last forty Posts...the best yet! I've really enjoyed going through them. Some of the things I find interesting:
Faith, asking some hard questions, with, understandably, no intention of trying to make sense of these confusions and contradictions!
Malryn, making us aware of the problems of crafting a Rime or tale, creatively and successfully.
Barbara, reminding us of the ever-present symbols in our lives. Nobody liked a symbol more than Coleridge.
Maryal, taking a cue from Faith, offers us the 'kiwi fruit', 'bed springs' and 'cobwebs' description of Part VI. That is, after sneaking in the suggestion, that perhaps we should consider looking for a Bipolar Disorder in the Mariner's makeup.
Capt'n Ginny, it's you we all feel sorry for. Whatever happened!? Really? All the referance materials have disappeared? All the maps and all the navigational charts? All the moon charts? They must be there! Look through all those papers one more time. Let's pray! The circumstances are right for something fortuitous to come along. Why not a miracle?
And benefitting from the consideration of all your posts, I offer you my opinion of Part VI. I don't know where to begin. I now hear it as the vast psycho-panorama of a traumatized mind slipping in and out of trances and spells, hearing voices, struggling with a kaleidoscope of incoherent images and sensations, memories forming, explanations coalescing in a world where ignorance is a sin, fears taking shape, frightened by the thought of looking back, thrilled by 'lights', which he takes for seraphim, wild, fluctuating mood states. This poor, simple, naive sailor, whose slender religious resources have let him down.
The most 'wonder-full' Part yet; and crucial to the making of HIS rime. Here is THE Rime forming, as a Sun forms amidst swirling clouds of cosmic dust. For a little while longer let's keep our Disbelief in a state of suspension.
Jonathan
FaithP
October 14, 2000 - 10:26 pm
Jonathan I received a word picture from you description of the Mariner of this poor crazed Man seeing the Hermit grasping him and crying out to him to save his soul. Because as you have stated above he has such a slender hold on a religious faith it has truly let him down in his state of delusion. Must this happen too, to modern addicts who can not find a way out of their addiction until they find the Group, to reinforce the Power Greater Than I that can save , but it is the living group that is the saving feature.Thats my opinion anyway, I attended 100's of AA meetings and when I was strong in my own convictions and my brand of "faith", I gave up the group, the Hermit,and the Wedding Guest,my psychiatrist, and I have maintained my sobriety longer by far than I was addicted.. Here the poor Mariner is going on and on collering more psychiatrists to tell his story to and then trying to say it is for their own good. Hahaha he is really over the edge. Adm'l fop
Ginny
October 15, 2000 - 04:00 am
...struggling with a kaleidoscope of
incoherent images and sensations, memories forming, explanations
coalescing in a world where ignorance is a sin, fears taking shape,
frightened by the thought of looking back, thrilled by 'lights', which he
takes for seraphim, wild, fluctuating mood states. This poor, simple,
naive sailor, whose slender religious resources have let him down.
Dadgum, you're
good, Jonathan!
Slender religious resources, huh?
How 'bout that Hermit? How do we account for him?
I love that, just love that: Slender religious resources, boy there is no end of fathoms deep in that one.
I feel the most sympathy for the other Mariners, because, caught by their own words (and who has
not uttered something they wish they could take back) they suffer a worse fate and with less consideration.
That question number 1 is a good one. The curse never died away, but some of the souls fled to bliss. Here again, we, as Jonathan said, have a mismatch, unless we want to plumb further into the various religious tenets Barb put up, that no Visitor from Porlock can come give us an excuse for now.
One of the major things I learned in this discussion was that the "Porlock" incident did not occur. I guess we can all drag out a visitor from Porlock if we need one.
I wonder how slender our own resources are, sometimes? I guess we find out when we're least able to deal with it, just like the Mariner.
Cap'n Lost Materials but moving on to Part VII tomorrow morning at 4 bells!
Ginny
October 15, 2000 - 04:07 am
Marvelous point, Admiral FOP: the Mariner is, instead of dealing with it himself, collaring others for "their own good." And what IS that good? The Wedding Guest is "stunned," and acts like he is of "sense forlorn." He misses the Wedding. The Wedding Party is forever diminshed by his presence?
He was "next of kin." I would think his absence would have caused anxiety. Why did his two buddies not help him? ONE old man vs three stalwarts?
This next section is going to be a whammy!
Captain Searching for Materials, has some Crewman deep sixed them?
Prepare the plank!!!
Jonathan
October 15, 2000 - 02:57 pm
Adin Steinsaltz on pilpul:
The Talmud...has been taught according to many different methods and adapted to new locales and different eras....The methods varied from academy to academy....All these methods were elaborated...and eventually created what was known as the pilpul (dialectical casuistric) method.
...Demanding great keenness of mind, this method attempts to create harmony between incronguent matters and to explain problems by employing relatively inflexible principles that are not always related to true comprehension of the talmudic text itself.
...According to one of the pilpul methods, controversies were explained as follows: after the first query, the expounder declares, "You have not understood my method properly, since I was referring to something else. But you are wrong even on the basis of your OWN method and way of understanding." The questioner presses on: "I have understood your theory very well, and my query, despite what you claim, is closely related to the question. But even if I accept your view that I have not understood you properly, my query is still relevant according to your approach."...and so on, ad infinitum.
...Clearly such a method calls for an exceptionally sharp mind...and entails tremendous intellectual effort.
...One famous parody describes how a rabbi asked his disciple why the letter p was needed in the word korah. When the disciple replied that the letter did not appear in the word, the rabbi persisted: 'Let us assume for a moment that the letter is placed in the word.' 'But why should it be needed there?' asked the disciple, to which the rabbi replied: 'That is exactly what I asked you.'
...The pilpul method aroused the opposition of many scholars...who claimed that it encouraged spurious intellectual brilliance and that it would be more profitable, for that purpose, to study chess than to distort Scripture.
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 16, 2000 - 05:22 am
I'm wondering why wedding-guest and not; farmer large, bacholar, mother and child, youngman chaste, fisherman or any number of other characters. The imige of a wedding-guest is of someone dressed more formally and ready to celebrate, attend a party. Wedding-guest is repeated through out the poem almost in counter balance to the image of the ancient. I keep thinking there is more to the ancient retelling his story, why a wedding-guest. How often do we come across wedding guests that could be cornered as compared tø other more everyday discribed characters.
Malryn (Mal)
October 16, 2000 - 06:28 am
Again from A Coleridge Companion:
"That summer when on Quantock's grassy hills
Far ranging, and among the sylvan combs,
Thou in delicious words, with happy heart,
Didst speak the vision of that Ancient Man,
The bright-eyed Mariner . . . .
"(Wordsworth, The Prelude (1805)
xiii 393-7)"
Ginny
October 16, 2000 - 09:04 am
Jonathan, I'm in "AWR" as the Sopranos say, of you, that explication of pilpul is marvelous and unfortunately kind of outlines my own style of reasoning. I admit it: I'm more after the process, I really enjoy the process more than the final truth. Maybe it's because of having to plow through translations so many years, but I really love the process almost more than the result and this discussion has been particularly satisfying to me, even tho a lot of the time my own submissions have been off the wall.
But that's OK, in this discussion we can say anything we please, we are among friends, all our minds work differently and we can say what we think, there are NO right or wrong answers here.
Barb, several critics, as I recall, made quite a point about all the contrast in the interruptions and the fact that it was a Wedding Guest and what a wedding symbolized: a new start, vis a vis the end in the Mariner's case, or IS it the end or could it be a beginning for the Wedding Guest too? You always seem to snatch on to what the critics have thought worthy of discussion, thanks so much.
Mal, I, too, love that Coleridge Companion, and I think you brought it here, didn't you? Yet I'm not sure the actual figure of a Wedding Guest was Wordsworth's? Somewhere in the heading we have Wordsworth himself on his entire contribution, I may have not paid attention but I'm not sure the Wedding Guest figure was his. Now I would like to know too, thank you for reminding us of the Companion, it's the BEST.
Now, speaking of OFF THE WALL, brace yourselves, while we're waiting for Part VII to go up in the heading, and lacking all materials for same and definitely depending on YOU all, I've brought here something which has just astounded me.
Yesterday on a trip out of town, I took occasion to listen to Paul Simon on one of his CDs? I'm on a Paul Simon kick, sorry to say. And the words of this song just jumped out at me, their meaning, their application, I could not rest till I found the lyrics this morning:
"Many's the time I've been mistaken
And many times confused,
Yes and I've always felt forsaken
and certainly misused.
But I'm all right, I'm all right,
I'm just weary to my bones.
Still you don't expect to be bright and bon vivant
So far away from home,
So far away from home.
I don't know a soul who's not been battered,
I don't have a friend who feels at ease.
I don't know a dream that's not been shattered,
Or driven to its knees.
But it's all right, it's all right,
For we've lived so well so long.
Still, when I think of the road we're travelin' on,
I wonder what's gone wrong.
I can't help it, I wonder what's gone wrong.
---Paul Simon
OK why did I put this here? Because the words of the poem spoke to me and it IS a poem, but in looking up the words which any person can do, I find to my shock that the poem itself, the song was written for another occasion entirely and that Paul Simon wrote it in response to another event and I KNOW from the bottom of my heart that NO person unless they look it up could possibly guess what that occasion was.
Therefore we need to ask ourselves this question?
Which is the most important thing about a poem? What we get out of it? What we understand the poet/ artist to be saying? Or what the poet actually MEANT to say, how he felt when he wrote it, why he wrote it and what he means by it?
I think those questions are appropriate here this morning and I would like to take today to look at them in the light of THIS poem, by Paul Simon and then extrapolated on to the Mariner.
Tomorrow morning Part VII will go up.
I'm going to put this in the Poetry section, too, it just blew my mind.
Cap'n
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 16, 2000 - 09:38 am
This is really off the subject but so very precious that it may be just the heartening thing that could make your day. Saturday I ran over to Collage Station to visit my youngest Son turned 41 last week and the grands. Paul has quite an extensive collection of CDs that at times has been the "judgemental" talk of some family members-- the dollars invested is their issue-- WELL they are his Song of Solomn or his Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám-- Later than I planned to leave and everyone in bed except Sally and I chatting away, in conversation about music being the way 11 year old Chris learns best, she shares how Paul, typical of so many men has difficulty sharing his feelings in words BUT driving in the car he will often say to her - "have you really listened to the words of this song" turns it up a bit and softly holds her arm compelling her to listen. (shades of the Mariner)
Always the song's words are something about this and that reminding of you or live all day for a word from you kind of expressions of love. He purchases these CDs often because of one song that says what is in his heart-- comes home and insists as Sally is coming-in or busy with dinner, to stop and sit in the big comfortable chair with him on the sofa looking at her as she is supposed to listen and obsorb the words of the song. Some woman get flowers and some get jewels but Sally gets songs and a huge collection of of CDs with songs that say what is in Paul's heart. I am tearing up telling y'all this.
Back to our wedding-guest - I didn't hink of new start but what crossed my mind was youth versus ancient and gaily dressed versus robes of an ancient and also, wedding-guests are not an everyday occurance so does that say the Mariner is not a broken record in repeating his story and if not, what triggers the story. Is there something about the gaity of a wedding celebration that we should be comparing to the nightmare aboard a ship and being saved. How does Jesus attending the wedding fit in-- at all?
If it weren't repeated so often I could see it being just a tool to tell the story but I think it is repeated probably more often than the albatrose.
Maybe it is just a way to contrast the mood and therefore, heighten the serious spellbinding mood of the experience aboard ship, almost like background music to a movie or is there a deeper message that we have not explored like that temporary gaity is less important in the scheme of things since the guest stays almost transfixed to listen.
Ginny if we are as readers substitude wedding-guests transfixed as we stayed with this poem maybe that is where we will find what the pull is that kept us so long entranced.
Jonathan
October 16, 2000 - 09:41 am
Barbara, for the same reason that you ask why Coleridge chose the Wedding Guest to be the first to hear the Mariner's strange tale, I am going to ask why he chose the Hermit, to whom the Mariner looks for help. Malryn responded to your post. I hope she replies to mine.
Crazed, traumatized, out of his mind, the Mariner at the end of Part VI still has enough wits about him to look for help; and he thinks he has found it. How wrong he is!
The Hermit, in my opinion, is the most pathetic character in the Rime. He with the 'cushion plump'; the 'sweet voice'; the one who likes to hear strange stories; who comes rushing out like any curious sight-seer. And the appalling scene...how exciting...like fallen leaves and the owlet's whoop and cannabalism among the wolves. This is wild; and about as much help as the the worn-out old creed, symbolized by the 'rotted old oak-stump', on which he kneels. Aren't there a few around? Fallen leaves and doctors of the soul.
It takes a sailor to recognize another sailor's plight. 'Dear Lord! it hath a fiendish look-'!
But unperturbed, 'cheerily' it says, from the Hermit: 'Push on, push on!'. Almost like hearing: This looks interesting!
And instead of getting help from the Hermit, it is the Mariner, who with his desparate, herculean act, who grasps the oars and succeeds in rescuing, not only himself, but all the others as well, including the Hermit. Why he couldn't shrive a...but he does have a nice voice!
Jonathan
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 16, 2000 - 09:48 am
Yes Jonathan we are posting at the same time but your Hermit questions - the Hermit almost riminds me of discriptions of old woman when they are refered to as Hags. As I understand it Hags are not described to put woman down but rather to heighten that physical appearance is lessoned so that the wisdom and connection to nature is heightened. Do you think that is what the Hermit stands for? Isn't there a Hermit in the Tarot Deck? Seems to me he stands for wisdom in Tarot. Sort of a Merlin with birds living in his hair.
Jonathan
October 16, 2000 - 09:57 am
Should I delete it, and bring it up some other time? What beautiful post I'm reading! This discussion is just beginning.
Jonathan
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 16, 2000 - 10:05 am
Ginny after reading the words several times I especially like
don't know a soul who's not been battered,
I don't have a friend who feels at ease.
I don't know a dream that's not been shattered,
Or driven to its knees.
But it's all right, it's all right,
now this bit, "For we've lived so well so long." I know may be musical but for me I don't value living well as the justification so to speak for being battered and shattered.
Still, when I think of the road we're travelin' on,
I wonder what's gone wrong.
I can't help it, I wonder what's gone wrong.
And here I don't espeially think anything has gone wrong. unless your in the middle of the painful situation and all is questioned in anguish. But without the pain we would not grow, or understand well enough to adapt compassion or make the changes in our life, as they say polish our soul. It is to me the difficult task of learning hope as in hope in the unseen since hope for something we know and understand is simply wanting to repeat memory.
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 16, 2000 - 10:08 am
Jonathan please everything doesn't have to be perfectly times and orchestrated - be a Merlin with birds in your hair and let your post be, as we all go forward with what we have to share--
robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2000 - 10:28 am
EASY DOES IT !!
Ginny
October 16, 2000 - 12:03 pm
I put the Paul Simon in the Poetry section and have taken the liberty of copying our own inimitable Charlie Wendell on it here, since he's not of this crew:
CharlieW - 11:15am Oct 16, 2000 PST (#
97 of 98)
Fiction Coordinator~~~New Fiction/Prized Fiction...every other monthGinny - "Which is the most important thing about a poem?". Oh, what we get out of it through our understanding. What the poet actually MEANT to say is almost incidental and truly unimportant. All of these things: how he felt when he wrote it, why he wrote it, etc., will assuredly add to our understanding of OUR interpretation of the poem, and perhaps enrich our experience of it. But the essence of the sparseness of poetry is to allow the reader to add his own consciousness to it. The difference between poetry and prose, I think.
Charlie (still crazy after all these years)
betty gregory
October 16, 2000 - 03:23 pm
My thoughts on your question, Ginny, although I know less about poetry than many here, is that everything you listed can be valued. My personal interpretation, therefore enjoyment, can grow as I learn from others what they know of the poet and all his connections to the poem. My first reading of the Rime brought one kind of satisfaction and my staying up with the posts here is bringing another kind. In fact, the satisfaction I get from learning something new has almost outlasted my interest in the poem itself.
Ginny, on PilPul, hmmmmm, I like process, too, but I think I would have to add I particularly like the possibilities of human interaction as process, not necessarily reason or objective argument to nudge along a result. It's not just what Barbara and Mal and Jonathan say that interests me, but how they say it to each other. Is this close to or different from what you wrote?
Ginny
October 16, 2000 - 04:13 pm
Oh yes, just the same, Betty, it's the human interaction of the thing I especially love about our Books discussions, I guess we can call it peoplepul. hahaha
I love this type of thing, myself and my rereading of each section of the poem, almost forgotten in the outstanding discussion for me, still gives me chills, literally, which it did not do before!
So all the information, all of it, every little drop of it, and how it was said and the interactions, no matter who from, or how off the wall they seemed to be, have added so immeasurably to the entire experience, I have really enjoyed it for myself, (I do feel a bit selfish in this) and have to thank you all for your trying and succeeding, this time, to do this poem!
Mazel TOV!
Cap'n Peoplepul
robert b. iadeluca
October 16, 2000 - 05:44 pm
"What is the most important thing about a poem?" To me, a poem is a form of music, whether it be a brief ditty or an opera. Therefore, the
feelings I receive are the communication between the poem and me.
It can be brief:--
I wander'd lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o'er vales and hills,
When all at once I saw a crowd,
A host of daffodils."
I don't have to analyze that. I absorb it. I feel it.
Or it can be an epic:--
This is the forest primaeval. The murmuring pines and the hemlocks,
Bearded with moss, and in garments green, indistinct in the twilight,
Stand like Druids of eld, with voices sad and prophetic,
Stand like harpers hoar, with beards that rest on their bosoms.
Loud from its rocky caverns, the deep-voiced neighboring ocean
Speaks, and in accents disconsolate answers the wail of the forest.
Yes, it tells a story but I don't have to analyze (or over-analyze) that either. I immerse myself in the Canadian forest and feel Nature speaking.
And so it is with "Rime of the Ancient Mariner." This, also, tells a story but I prefer to stand back and feel: --
And now the STORM-BLAST came and he
was tyrannous and strong;
He struck with his o'ertaking wings."
And ice, mast-high, came floating by,
As green as emerald.
All in a hot and copper sky,
The bloody sun, at noon,
Right up above the mast did stand,
No bigger than the Moon.
About, about, in reel and rout
The death-fires danced at night;
The water, like a witch's oils,
Burnt green, and blue and white.
Her lips were red, her looks were free,
Her locks were yellow as gold:
Her skin was as white as leprosy,
The Night-mare LIFE-IN-DEATH was she,
Who thicks man's blood with cold.
Alone, alone, all, all alone,
Alone on a wide wide sea!
The other was a softer voice,
As soft as honey-dew;
Quoth he, "the man hath penance done,
And penance more will do."
And so on, and so on, and so on. If there is a message in this poem (and I'm sure there is), I feel it more than I hear or read it. An opera may have a story which appeals to the intellect but it shares the story in an emotional manner through its music. If this were not so, people would just go to plays and ignore operas.
At least, this is how I see it.
Robby
Malryn (Mal)
October 16, 2000 - 08:45 pm
Is this what you meant? Quoting Paul Simon about An American Tune:
"Paul Simon : It is a song about disillusion. It was written after Nixon was elected. It bothers me whenever I think
that the definition of American doesn't include everybody, doesn't include the minorities, equally. And whenever I
feel that we're in a time where that's the case, it's reactionary to me and it makes me uncomfortable, and I think
that's the case today.
"and high up above my eyes could clearly see
the Statue of Liberty sailing away to sea."
FaithP
October 16, 2000 - 09:19 pm
Mal I though I remembered too that Paul Simmon's song was written as a civil rights protest. The poem is ok Ginny, but I can't get a connection unless it is just that poetry often has no meaning beyond what the reader gives it. Meaning is so subjective. If you say, I want equality for all, you are making an objective statement but if yous say, "Its a weary road , we are all battered and bruised, what went wrong? That can be interpreted ad infinitum.
I usually come to poetry as a thirsty person to a glass of water and gulp it down. When my thirst is slaked I can then pour a glass(read it slowely) and sip it slowly savoring the nuances of cold and wet, of slacking thirst, of smacking wet lips. and then the sensual and fuller feelings come forth for me, then in a group discussion I want to analize the water and the bottling process. Admiral Fop
Jonathan
October 16, 2000 - 09:30 pm
What beautiful posts. Nothing like a song, to help one get along. To put things in a new perspective. Thanks Capt'n Ginny. And two posts from Robert. Your feelings about poetry are the truest of all. But your first got me wondering. Easy does it!!
I am pleased at the reception which the post on dialectical casuistric got. It's doubtful if it could be usefully employed in commenting on the Mariner's message; because the message, like the meaning of the events which it relates, goes well beyond anything that intellect can reach.
Am I being too hard on the Hermit? Would I be going too far, if I said that the Mariner is suffering from no Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? That he knows very well what he is doing, when he tells and retells his story. His penance is a victory for him. He has returned to the Kirk from which he set out. But HE has changed. He now knows what he has to do in the new world to which his suffering has led him.
The Rime does have a logic to it. Beautifully crafted, isn't it, Malryn? Your post, #13, I think, it was, got me thinking about it a little harder. Like the rest of you, everyday I seem to think differently about it. Tomorrow? Who knows?
Chess, anybody?
Hats
October 17, 2000 - 02:42 am
That's a hard question. I think the Ancient Mariner killed the Albatross because for him, it was a past remembrance.
Since he is an Ancient Mariner, we know he had experienced many, many, sea ventures. Most definitely, not all of them could have been good journeys. On quite a few, he probably expected to lose life or limb.
Perhaps, when he sees the Albatross, he sees his past flying before his eyes. In other words, the Albatross, is an embodiment of some personally experienced ill will. So, at this point, he is not seeing what his shipmates are seeing. The mariner is looking into the past and the Albatross is a portrait of that guilty past.
I am reminded of Captain Ahab. The whale became a symbol of evil for him.
How magnificent, that our seeing senses are made to see the same object but to have different emotional experiences. It makes the world far more interesting and wider.
Ginny
October 17, 2000 - 03:35 am
Hey there, HATS! And Welcome welcome as we near port here it's a tremendous omen of good luck that you have flown on board! Now there's an idea we did not think of, the bird reminded the Mariner of something else ("Slowly I turned....") That's very interesting and so is your connection with Ahab, now, I appreciate that very much!!
Welcome to the Books! Tell us more, it will be interesting to see how you tie up the ends of this one!
The Simon poem, Mal? I think it has a lot to do with the Mariner. Was the statement on why Simon wrote the song what I wanted? No, not really. That's my point, tho, entirely.
I have just recently rediscovered Paul Simon and those particular lyrics really grabbed me when I first heard them. Naturally I looked further. Naturally I found out what it was about, and more.
I also found out what Simon , since he is still alive, was thinking, etc, at the time, what he thinks now, who he is, possibly, as much as he will allow anybody to know, etc., etc., etc. And he is a living person whom we can always write and ASK.
When I found out what the song/ poem "American Tune" was about, I was disappointed. More than disappointed, disappproving. I didn't think it should be called "American Tune," etc. BUT I love it, for itself alone. And knowing what Simon intended to say ruins it for me, I would rather not. I would rather glory in the lyrics themselves and view that information as interesting but non essential. Because, the way I look at it, he might have
thought he was writing about Richard Nixon, but he was really writing about himself and we all have those feelings, sometime, in our lives, or most of us do, anyway.
I think the poem is perfect and indicative of a lot of things, including the Mariner's own voyage (the verses I quoted...)
"Many's the time I've been mistaken
And many times confused,
Yes and I've always felt forsaken
and certainly misused.
But I'm all right, I'm all right,
I'm just weary to my bones.
Still you don't expect to be bright and bon vivant
So far away from home,
So far away from home.
I don't know a soul who's not been battered,
I don't have a friend who feels at ease.
I don't know a dream that's not been shattered,
Or driven to its knees.
But it's all right, it's all right,
For we've lived so well so long.
Still, when I think of the road we're travelin' on,
I wonder what's gone wrong.
I can't help it, I wonder what's gone wrong.
How could that NOT pertain to the Mariner? He could have written it!
Likewise the subsequent verses about a dream sequence as fanciful as the Mariner's that I did not. It's its own Mariner.
It even has a ship.
And to me, my extra added knowledge ruined the sense of the poem/song for me. I want to experience what the poem says but I want to understand it for my own life. I WANT the historical references and to know all I can about Simon because he's interesting, but ultimately I want to experience it for what it
says,, in so far as I can understand it. And perhaps
I'm the one confused. The Mariner was confused, too. I think a lot of us are confused, and the more confused we are, the more certain we like to appear. That would be my personal opinion to which I am entitled.
Like Robby with his colorful explication I want to experience it, but in my own terms. Knowing what the author intended, ate, slept over and worried over, the
times of the 70's, is important to my all over feeling, but in the end it's MINE, the exprerience is personal and mine. All reading is that way, I think.
And the fact that people are still listening to the poem/song, and enjoying it even tho they have no earthly idea it pertains to Richard Nixon or anything else, shows that it will endure simply because it speaks to other universal issues of man.
What of that experience I choose to share here is mine too, and that's why I enjoy hearing everybody else's explanations and ideas, we are all ideas here, minds convening.
And so for me, as I did learn a great deal in this endeavour, the Paul Simon, in my opinion, is more apropos than not, and that's why I put it in.
I too do not think the Mariner is suffering from post traumatic syndrome. Who am I to say that? I am me.
Our book discussions are about US and our own opinions. I have discovered to my shock that I have some very strong opinions on this poem which I will share on the last day, and I hope you will, yours, if you have not, already.
There are two questions in the heading which are very striking, to me. I hope to get your opinions on same, I look forward to hearing what you all think, that's why we're here.
Thanks to Pat W for her wonderful constancy in changing the illustrationa, imagine Coleridge knowing about the whirlpool when a ship goes down, he knew quite a lot, didn't he?
Admiral FOP, Sir! What a marvelous analogy about drinking at the well of poetry, I love that one and have copied it out. My own sentiments exactly, but much better put!
Jonathan were you too hard on the Hermit? Yes, he did show admirable strength of character, note the young man fell down in a fit, but he's not hard on himself, is he? Cushion plump?
Let's see now, lives in the wood, but finds a plump place to kneel...now is there anything ....hmmmm... those lines there, by the way, are breathtakingly beautiful.
Likewise in this section are some favorite lines of mine:
"Ha! ha!" quoth he,"full plain I see
The Devil knows how to row."
Love that line and think of it all the time.
I would like to call your attention to Question 4 in the heading and likewise 5, and 6. I think they are especially intriguing this morning.
Cap'n Safe Harbor
Hats
October 17, 2000 - 06:56 am
I think that even in the most decent person there lies a desire to shock or lay down what they may think of as their virtuous selves. This desire to rebel might be what leads us to read about villains or watch those people on tv or in the movies.
Maybe we are really fantasizing that we are the ones having an affair or murdering a hated in-law. Is this why the most boisterous talk shows stay alive and well?
Before, I had not given it much thought, but perhaps, the mariner impulsively shot the Albatross, just for the feeling. If that's so, he acted without thinking. However, we do have to pay for thought out deeds as well as unthought out deeds.
If we could see the consequences of our actions, I guess we would be more careful about actions without thought.
I think if the mariner could relive the moment, he would let the Albatross fly freely, but unfortunately, time can not be controlled. Once we live it, it is gone.
Jonathan
October 17, 2000 - 02:39 pm
The question: 'Why did the Mariner shoot the Albatross?', does look different now that we've followed the chain of events which lead from the shooting to the moral at the end.
Everybody would agree with you, HATS, that, in all probability, the Mariner would not shoot the Albatross a second time. Shouldn't Coleridge have left it at that? Why the need for the moral?
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 17, 2000 - 04:41 pm
I like what Ginny says about reading the poem for what it does for you while your reading it. That is the aspect of reading that allows me to think of ownership and discovery. It certainly falls in line with thinking that I've admired from Russell Crescimanno, a professor of sociology. One of his papers
The Cultivation of Critical Thinking: Some Tools and Techniques deals with going deep into material rather than staying with the superficial. I especially like these few lines from the paper:
While people generally seem to know that life and learning become richer and more meaningful when one moves beneath the surface apperarance of thing, we live and work within a social system that unwittingly, encourages fragmentation and superficiality...Even the art of reason comes to be considered a specialized skill, appropriate and useful to some and not for others.
How can we facilitate the process of transforming data into informtion, and information into knowledge?
Thinking critically is work...the push to orgainze material in terms of a larger picture. And the larger picture, of being-human-in-society.
Converting outlined notes into I'm learning statements is an effort to get to the heart of the matter, to the core of the learning that is evolving. Realizations are the result of seeing the application and relevance of material in light of the everyday world, especially our own and that represents the integration of thought and feelings.
Self-reflection is an essential component of the critical thinking process. Helpful are question "What is the point?"- "So What is the significance or the consequences of the point being made?" and "So Now What?" What or how would implement change in my life or what is my understanding of interdependent intricacies at the heart of the relationship between the individual and society.
Hats I love the concept that you shared of the Albatrose representing a past experience. That fact of not explaining the reason the Mariner shot the Albatrose sure is an attention grabber isn't it? It reminds me of asking a seven year old
why he did this or that as we the adult try to put logic to the actions. Just thinking about that, why do we want an action, especially one we have trouble accepting, why do we want the perpatrator of an action to have a reason that fits our understanding or what we all call our own logically view of individuals in society? Are we looking for justification to determine if the perpetrator of what we consider bad action should be punished or maybe they didn't know any better or maybe they had a reason we just cannot think through.
When I was a child memorizing Robby's reminder of "...lonely as a cloud...host of yellow daffodils" I never saw the implication of the verse. I guess this discussion has been filled with a host of 'bright' yellow daffodils.
Post-truamatic I do not know for sure either Jonathon but in essance the poem does say, the moment the ancient sees the face of man that must hear he teaches him by telling the tale. Which reminds me of step 12 in Al-Anon or ACOA or AA "Having
had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to
carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs." I believe that also is an Evangelical view of Christianity??
Lines that for me answer my question about the choice of a wedding-Guest, his final behavior seem to add to the concept that the Mariner is a teacher when he tells his tale.
O sweeter than the marriage-feast,
To walk together to the kirk
With a goodly company!--
And all together pray,
...and now the Wedding-Guest
Turned from the bridegroom's door.
He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man,
He rose the morrow morn.
Jonathan
October 17, 2000 - 07:42 pm
Very strange! I find myself thinking along the same lines. First with Barbara's 'carry the message to others', and the Mariner as a 'teacher'.
And then your attention, too, Malryn, caught by the word 'teach'; and wondering about the Mariner as a 'missionary'. Or a kind of prophet? Of course! That is where the compulsion comes in. He has a message, and 'this heart within me burns', is straight from the mouth of the prophet Jeremiah!
And that seemingly 'simplistic' moral is not that at all...not in the way the Mariner wants it to be understood. For a listener to understand it in the Mariner's way, is to know why the Wedding Guest goes away wiser. For a starter I'll suggest that the Mariner is trying to tell us that love itself is prayer and prayer becomes a prayer for the ability to love. And that is a spiritual power which might just be helpful in this incomprehensible, seemingly 'dice-roll' world. It is not a matter of redemption. It's a matter of remaking the world. God as loving 'Father'? Looks like he has become a reality for the Mariner. As Divine Urge or something?
I can't get out of my head the contrast of the Hermit, kneeling on his plump cushion, praying; and the Mariner doing the same out there, alone, on the wide, wide sea.
Jonathan
Deems
October 17, 2000 - 08:09 pm
I've been thinking.........
We are in the position of the Wedding Guest having listened to the Mariner tell his tale. He does not hold us by his glittering eye but by the poetry in which he lives. We want to know what has possessed this man to stop a guest with a wedding to attend. We ourselves are held captive as we are by all good poetry. What does the poem have to tell us and how does it benefit us?
I think the poem for me is a way to empathise with the Mariner, a condemned man as I see it, either self-condemned or from some kind of fever that comes upon him, to wander the earth and tell his tale in order to feel relief until the burning comes again and he must find another soul to serve as listener.
For reasons I cannot explain, I was called back to T.S. Eliot tonight to find a particular passage, in "The Dry Salvages," the third part of Four Quartets. I wanted to locate it because it helps to explain to me why the mariner's suffering is instructive for the involved reader. Here is Eliot:
Now, we come to discover that the moments of agony
(Whether or not, due to misunderstanding,
Having hoped for the wrong things or dreaded the wrong things,
Is not in question) are likewise permanent
With such permanence as time has. We appreciate this better
In the agony of others, nearly experienced,
Involving ourselves, than in our own.
For our own past is covered by the currents of action,
But the torment of others remains an experience
Unqualified, unworn by subsequent attrition.
I have added the italics.
If the reader of "The Ancient Mariner" is involved in the poem, then the agonies of the mariner may well teach us more than our own agonies because we have a little perspective. When we suffer our own agonies, we cannot learn so clearly.
~Maryal
Malryn (Mal)
October 17, 2000 - 08:12 pm
Well said, Maryal.
FaithP
October 17, 2000 - 09:04 pm
You all are thinking what I am thinking only I am not able to draw any conclusions but I am pondering like Mal the word "teach" and wondered if it were use as "tell" but then why use it if it does not mean teach, oh golly but what is he teaching except all the horror that can occur to some men for some acts.
It is as if Stephen King wrote his protaganist in The Shinning, going "sane" at the last minute when he wants to ax down the door, and find himself in prayer and love. and that is the end....Can you think of a more terrible let down. Well Part six and seven have been a let down and I feel Mr. Colridge could have done a whole different ending. As I said I love ghost stories. I like stories that end with no redemtion sometimes, as if to say look here Killing that albaross was unforgivable and the horrer you have suffered is not enough and so you will have this horrible burning in your breast to tell it, your story, over and over but always you will have to do it again no redemtion.The urge comes at unseasonable or unreasonable hours so he never has redemption from "teaching" his story.
After listening to the story the wedding guest is a sadder and wiser man? That I am pondering now. This wedding guest business has had me amused and confused since I first read this years ago. No one no one says who they think he is why he is or what he is. I personally do not feel sadder and wiser by "hearing this story" though I totally enjoy reading it. Adm'l Fop
Hats
October 18, 2000 - 06:25 am
I have been spending the morning reading over earlier posts. These conversations are enjoyable as well as informative. I am learning so much. I am finding it difflcult to remove myself from the computer.
From what has been explained, I have fallen in love with the philosophy of Transcendentalism. Especially when Malryn brought out the fact that this philosophy involved the idea that the mind should be cultivated and the mind as precious.
I love Wordsworth and can remember that many of his poems involved a love of nature. He believed in Transcendentalism (it is hard for me to spell Trans.....)
As far as Coleridge, I had thought about his addiction as his Albatross, but I do wonder do these addictions tend to make artists and writers more creative? Can the same question be raised about illnesses? For instance, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Flannery O'Connor and more recently, the author of Sight Unseen and Ellen Foster? Oh well, I might be off the track, just wondering.
Deems
October 18, 2000 - 09:04 am
HATS---It is so good to have you with us for the end of the journey. But you have to be very careful or you will get addicted to these discussions. I did the same thing you did when I first came here-- read through all the posts in a discussion. I just couldn't get over how many different points of view and ideas there were.
I find the end of the poem a disappointment also. And I do think Coleridge felt he had to point a moral at the end. Too bad, it might very well have been better not to.
I am, however, looking forward to the CAPN telling us, at long last, her take on the poem. She has been gallantly allowing all of us to state our responses. Now it is her turn.
O CAPN, my CAPN, where are you, SIR?
Maryal
Jonathan
October 18, 2000 - 10:46 am
I don't see the moral which the Mariner serves up at the end as a 'religious' solution to what he has been through. I'm willing to consider all psychological explanations. Perhaps he is suffering from a Histrionic Personality Disorder and is just an attention seeker, enjoys having 200 pairs of eyes glued on him, is willing to shoot an albatross to get the attention of the gods.
I think the moral reflects the insight he has gained into what life is all about and what he can do about it and what he would like to pass along to those who will understand. But he remains the 'religious' person he was and serves up his moral within the peramaters of his belief. But the insight is universal
Jonathan
Jonathan
October 18, 2000 - 11:59 am
Oh dear me, Malryn, it's been your observations which have led me to many of my conclusions. Believe me. Without your posts it wouldn't have been have the fun. Me and my pronouncements!
Jonathan
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 18, 2000 - 12:23 pm
Interesting - when I researched the famous and oft quoted:
All things both great and small;
For the dear God who loveth us,
He made and loveth all.
I found that the words were used in different combinations by -
Aristotle, On the Soul (de anima) ... in all animals, great and small, high and low ... principle of all things; ... He assigns both characteristics ...
The Lay of the Cid: Cantar II
... my lord Cid in all things will I show my favor ... In raiment of all colors are clad both great and small.
And I absolutly love this rather than just expressing the sound as an echo vibrating off the hill.
And all was still, save that the hill
Was telling of the sound.
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 18, 2000 - 12:54 pm
These are my favorite lines of the poem. I love the imagery. I can smell the forest with its cushion of moss and brown leaves deacaying and the gurgling brook.
He hath a cushion plump:
It is the moss that wholly hides
The rotted old oak-stump.
Brown skeletons of leaves that lag
My forest-brook along;
When the ivy-tod is heavy with snow,
And the owlet whoops to the wolf below,
That eats the she-wolf's young.'
Oak strength protection durabliity courage, truth, a symbol of Christ as strength in adversity, steadfastness in faith and virtue.
Brown death to the world, renunciation, penitence.
Forest the realm of the psyche, a place of testing and initiation, of unkown perils and darkness. mankind lost in the darkness without divine direction, the soul entering the perils of the unkown, the realm of death, the secrets of nature.
Ivy immortality and eternal life, revelry, clinging dependence, attachment.
Owl either as bird of wisdom or of darkness and death.
Wolf the earth; evil; devouring; fierceness. primitive gods of the dead, the spoiler of flocks, cruelty, craftiness.
I come by my automatic knee jerk look at symbolism honestly - in our home so many words and colors and celebrations etc. were symbolic of something - I remember one of my mother's biggest crisis was what to do about the front door after I married. When there is a marriagable daughter in the home the front door was painted blue. Well after I married my sister only 2 and half years younger would have been of age to continue leaving the front door blue.
WELL the month before my wedding my sister tells my parants she has chosen to become a nun! My mother the catholic was delighted, my father the German Lutheran was outraged. My mother's daily angst was stirred by my father's daily ranting and of course we also had raving. All this continued until several months later my mother quietly, without my father even noticing till almost a month after, had painted the front door green again. Magically all raving and even ranting ceased. I must say my father aged before our eyes after the blue door was repainted and we gathered within two years, my sister's dowry so she could enter the convent of her choice.
betty gregory
October 18, 2000 - 10:13 pm
Oh, dear, I've been fiddling with my computer's window "appearance" tab in the "my computer" file---I scrolled down here to type in this box and it's dark sage green! I can barely make out the black letters!! I'll have to go fix that.
Loved the story of the marriageable daughter's blue door, Barbara. So, your father never got over "losing" his daughter to the community of sisters? This calls to mind the explosion from my father when he found out that my youngest brother's wife did not change her last name. My father was outraged, declared he would not have attended the wedding if he'd known. (I didn't say it, but we would not have missed him there; he's a cantakerous old goat without a kind bone.) I've read that fathers, even more than mothers, expect strict gender role compliance from children---and from girls even more than boys. My youngest brother and other young men are moving away from that, thank goodness.
Mal, you floor me, separating yourself from "intellectual." I value your uncanny, clearsighted insight. You often can spot the heart of the matter while the rest of us are still mapping our strategies.
Jonathan
October 19, 2000 - 09:17 am
I began to look at the Rime in a new light after a day with a strange person, who, I decided, had the appearance of a man from Xanadu, whom I met last week in the mountain wilderness of Upstate NY. He appeared out of nowhere, up there at the top of the mountain. We found each other congenial company and spent the rest of the day together. His age and his alpenstock matched mine. His birthplace and residence was NYC, the cross-roads of the world, with its cosmopolitan, everything-in-life experience. But his heart and soul and intellectual 'own countree' seemed to be the orient.
We talked of many things. I got to hear about Zen and satori, the 'new viewpoint', the 'new world', which lies somewhere out there at the extremities of human thought, beyond the confusion and dualism of our everyday minds. He talked about the strange Bardo Plane, the stage, or transition between life and death and life, which is described in The Tibetan Bood of the Dead. (Joe, if you're reading this, come in here and explain it one more time.)
When I suggested that surely a New Yorker might be expected to be sceptical about what isolated monks in their Himalayan fastness had visioneered, he dismissed the New York 'experiences' as distractions! And left me with this line from some ancient scripture: 'The phenomena of life may be likened unto a dream, a phantasm, a bubble, a shadow, the glistening dew, or lightening flash; and thus they ought to be contemplated.'
Discuss the I Ching, he told me, when we parted on the parking lot. See what I mean? The supernatural stuff and the poetic glitter in The Rime are just distractions; but they drive one to seek the truth.
Jonathan
Deems
October 19, 2000 - 09:33 am
Jonathan---What an interesting far-from-ordinary Joe you ran into. You are going to have me puzzling all day on that final comment. Discuss the I Ching. How on earth would one go about doing that?
Boy am I off the topic. OOOOOoooooops, sorry CAPN.
~Maryal
Ginny
October 19, 2000 - 09:43 am
oooo, you can't GET too far off the topic to suit the Cap'n!
JOE, you come right in here, we want to hear from our, our own live Mariner, perhaps???? Or manifestation, at least.
Jonathan, how fab, you've just had the same experience, what a wonderful post?
Midshipman IRK, what meansest thou? The Cap'n's ideas shall be revealed on the very last day, but holdeth not your breath for novelty, it's all been said here before by others. It just so happens that it makes sense to the Captain one way and that's how the Cap'n now sees it: a complete contrast to the Cap'n's own long held opinion that the the poem is an allegory for the crucifixion. Had we not read this thing together, I would have gone to my grave spouting such.
NOW I spout something else, and will reveal all on the very last day.
Admiral FOP and Midshipman Irk: Disappointed in the end? Say not so? How would you druther it had ended?
What would have made it less disappointing?
Great points this am!
Barbara, what an interesting post and Betty, the same, it's amazing what comes out in these discussions sometimes. Our parents, perhaps long gone, still speak to us, I had an awful dream Sunday night and woke up and actually called my help here with the grapes, gasping out that she had to come Monday (which was not her day) as Mother was in hospital and how COULD I have left her there like that? (Mother died February 22 of this year). So I understand parental influence in our lives.
Not sure what the intellectual stuff refers to, but HERE'S something intellectual for you? Oxford University in England has a long tradition of lecturers: GB Shaw, etc., and in more recent times, Desmond Tutu. Guess who spoke there last week? Give up? Dr. Love. Yes, Dr. Love, the black song writer and I guess singer, spoke on his works.
Maybe there is more TO literature; maybe it encompasses the whole of our own existence too.
I'm dying to understand the I Ching remark, also?
Cap'n Ching
Ginny
October 19, 2000 - 10:10 am
HI, Hats! (couldn't resist that one)...didn't mean to leave you out, I don't know about illness or addiction, but both of those things would tend to isolate you, I would think, and I read a really good thing on isolation or aloneness in the Mariner the other day, to wit:
(This is from the gabiscott.com/ 4033/ romantic/stc_rime.htm) site:
"The poem captures an age-old dilemma: man's essential apartness in his aloneness. Man is alienated from the world. Hell, according to some iconoclastic theologians, is nothing more than such isolation (i.e., it is a state of mind)
Scott also says there were two actors in the drama (weren't there more: the other two companions, for one thing?) The Wedding Guests? Or not?
And that it can be considered on three levels:
the literal level: enjoyed simply as a suspenseful adventure story The moral level: examining the poem as a fable of sin, penance and redemption drawing upon traditional symbols and motifs. the allegorical level: Similar to the moral interpretation but without reference to the Christian myth. It sees the Mariner as an everyman figure who must come to grips with his isolation from society. It deals with sin in the Universe and its overcoming.
That's interesting, isn't it? Which one of the three comes closest to your OWN interpretations, Crew? Perhaps you would care to give your OWN closing statements when the Cap'n does on the very last day (and yes I can hear Peter, Paul and Mary as I write that).
Cap'n Mary
Ginny
October 19, 2000 - 10:26 am
oooo, you can't GET too far off the topic to suit the Cap'n!
JOE, you come right in here, we want to hear from our, our own live Mariner, perhaps???? Or manifestation, at least.
Jonathan, how fab, you've just had the same experience, what a wonderful post?
Midshipman IRK, what meansest thou? The Cap'n's ideas shall be revealed on the very last day, but holdeth not your breath for novelty, it's all been said here before by others. It just so happens that it makes sense to the Captain one way and that's how the Cap'n now sees it: a complete contrast to the Cap'n's own long held opinion that the the poem is an allegory for the crucifixion. Had we not read this thing together, I would have gone to my grave spouting such.
NOW I spout something else, and will reveal all on the very last day.
Admiral FOP and Midshipman Irk: Disappointed in the end? Say not so? How would you druther it had ended?
What would have made it less disapointing?
Great points this am!
Barbara, what an interesting post and Betty, the same, it's amazing what comes out in these discussions sometimes. Our parents, perhaps long gone, still speak to us, I had an awful dream Sunday night and woke up and actually called my help here with the grapes, gasping out that she had to come Monday (which was not her day) as Mother was in hospital and how COULD I have left her there like that? (Mother died February 22 of this year). So I understand parental influence in our lives.
Not sure what the intellectual stuff refers to, but HERE'S something intellectual for you? Oxford University in England has a long tradition of lecturers: GB Shaw, etc., and in more recent times, Desmond Tutu. Guess who spoke there last week? Give up? Dr. Love. Yes, Dr. Love, the black song writer and I guess singer, spoke on his works.
Maybe there is more TO literature than just what somebody else says, maybe it encompasses the whole of our own existence too.
I'm dying to understand the I Ching remark, also?
Cap'n Ching
Ginny
October 19, 2000 - 10:32 am
Midshipman IRK:
Your TS Eliot fascinates me, I want to look at it again:
Now, we come to discover that the moments of agony
(Whether or not, due to misunderstanding,
Having hoped for the wrong things or dreaded the wrong things,
Is not in question) are likewise permanent
With such permanence as time has. We appreciate this better
In the agony of others, nearly experienced,
Involving ourselves, than in our own.
For our own past is covered by the currents of action,
But the torment of others remains an experience
Unqualified, unworn by subsequent attrition.
I have added the italics.
If the reader of "The Ancient Mariner" is involved in the poem, then the agonies of the mariner may well teach us more than our own agonies because we have a little perspective. When we suffer our own agonies, we cannot learn so clearly.
~Maryal
Oh boy, TS Eliot, I love TS Eliot, I had never seen this poem, but you know what? I disagree with both of you!
Nothing that touches somebody else is as "touching" as what touches us personally. It's vicarious. We think we understand the agony but we understand it from our
own perspective, and in so doing, we personalize it and MAKE IT OURS.
Because the Mariner's story does not affect me. What am I to learn of it? I like the conclusion, but do I tie in to the deaths of the other sailors? No. Do I think the whole thing was an act of retribution for the death of one bird? No.
Do I feel sorry for the Mariner? No.
Have I learned anything from HIS story? No.
Did the Wedding Guest learn anything from the story to make him a "sadder and a wiser man?" If he did, I don't know what it was. Why should HE be sad, except that he missed the wedding and let down his next of kin, didn't have enough backbone to ask the Mariner to wait or to return or if he did not, at least he satisfied his own moral obligations to his next of kin.
What have I learned from the story? That everything, no matter how large or small, counts. That Coleridge was a wonderful poet no matter WHAT he was on. That Coleridge, a person like the rest of us with all our faults, still did more than I ever could, I'm in total awe of his talent.
And I now understand his epitaph which I did not when we started.
That's pretty good for one poem. Maryal, would you someday lead a TS Eliot discussion for us? I would love to take part in it.
Cap'n Contrary
FaithP
October 19, 2000 - 12:10 pm
The Mariner had a horrible experience. He wishes to share it. Over and over and we assume that he did as he is Ancient at the end of the story and still has accomplished nothing by his telling his experience. So in my opinion it is not a real hero's tale at all as there is no good concluding moral to the story. Now I for one think the Author wrote a wonder filled poem. Parts of it could stand alone. It was obviously tinkered with a great deal and could have stood more cuts. A better editor perhaps. But in the long run I am back where I started in that if you hear this poem read outloud it is really a great horror story with a weak ending to be sure. And it does not enhance the poem for me to analize it.But it does enhance my understanding of other readers. Not only in what they say discussing the poem but also in the side shoots that come off the discussion. The I Ching. Thats great. I have read about Bardo, Jonathan, and think you are lucky to have had a discussion with someone who understands the Book of the Dead. Admr Fop
betty gregory
October 19, 2000 - 07:15 pm
Everything counts, both large and small, writes Ginny. I wonder if that is in the general ballpark of my thoughts. Both the poem and the discussion figures into my evolution of thoughts on the Rime.
There is a behavior theorist, a prolific researcher, Albert Bandura, who proposes that a 3-way interaction is always in play and that each of the three factors influences the other two. The 3 things are (put into my words)---what I think, what I do and what you do. A three-way interaction, including influence and change, is ongoing.
Sometimes when something like this poem makes me begin thinking of how we are all connected, how everything is in response to something else, I inevitably end up thinking of Bandura. In the poem, nothing is separate, all actions are somehow connected to everything else, in response to everything else. Except the mariner's shooting the Albatross, you say? Well, even if his motive is hidden from us, it's still probable that the action was more than just a mindless, random event from a robot.
So, I suppose, along with other ideas given by others, I'd say that the pain, the misery of the Mariner's experiences touches something in us---a response of some kind, intellectual, emotional. Coleridge gives us a mystery and we don't like things left in the air, loose ends. We want an answer, a solution. Maybe this is something the Mariner is searching for also, a solution. Whether his telling the tale over and over is a miserable task (or one of joy, as someone suggested), we do get the feeling that the telling has gone on and on, as if he's unable to finish.
Whether Coleridge or Wordsworth intended to give us a puzzle that was unsolvable, I don't know. I would guess, though, that that is at the heart of the volumes of analysis---our need for solution, even though there may not be one. Our reaction (to the poem, the poet) is stuck in the "go" position; we can't get finished, much as the Mariner cannot.
Jonathan
October 19, 2000 - 09:20 pm
Trying to get some answers to the probing moral questions regarding the Mariner's spiritual well-being, I find these thoughts coming to mind.
Perhaps a Christian would find it difficult to read the Rime without shuddering. It might bring to mind the words (which I seem to remember as) 'Take up my cross and follow me'. It is said, sometimes, I believe, that christian redemption isn't necessarily spiritual clover. On the other hand, once having caught the momentous feeling of blessing and being blessed in a desperately wretched physical, moral and spiritual pit, he would, so to speak, and I think this has been established as part of the psychology of religion, be almost eager to retrace the steps leading to that experience. Most of the endeavour in the Bible, Old and New, is, it is said, a search for God. For that matter, all Scripture is intensely humanistic, contrary to what the Humanists believe. Perhaps it is time to reclaim the Divinity in Humanism. I seem to be falling into a poetic reverie. I'd better stop. Rest in Peace, wherever you are, Ancient Mariner.
Jonathan
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 20, 2000 - 12:59 am
Whew without electricity all day - on the phone when I heard pop - the whole neighborhood was out - seems the squirrels were at it again chewing up the wire coving and we have had beaucoup de pleuvoir the past few days.
I'm OK with the ending - for me the moral has been interior rather than an exterior set of events or an exterior God. All the characters from albatrose to crew to water-snakes to serephim to pilot and pilot's boy, the Hermit even the Kirk are part of us or me as the whole of the universe is in a speck of sand.
How often I've done something that my ego (crew) says at first OK, and than, whow you blew it and I carry on with this guilt and shame removing myself from clarity, openess; feeling protective, decreased, alone and seperate from my spiritual center, believeing my happiness is dependent on my seeing progress or fearing loss or dependent on other's opinion of me. Mulling the issue over and over becoming more embroiled in doubt I feel surrounded by all that is harmful til I finally let go, detatch and accept myself warts and all (the snakes.) When I cease striving to fix whatever the issue is and detach, all of a sudden the situation improves or an idea comes from seemingly no where, like an angles whisper and I go into action sailing my ship toward a reconnect. As the saying goes;
That moment I definitely commit myself, then Providence also moves. All sorts of things occur to help me that would never otherwise have occured. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in my favor all manner of unforeseen incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no one could have dreamed would have come my way.
To me this is like the pilot coming to meet me and than the leap of faith I must take that is ncessary to trust myself and these new insights, ideas and than, to be committed to act on them because my old way of understanding and doing things is going to sink as the ship, my cradle of the known comfort and pain is going to sink. My inner child is as frieghtened and awe struck as the pilot's son. Now I can connect and trust the creative higher power that like the Hermit will lead me to a group or others, a church in the real sense of the word, that are also living in trust and creativity and together we will slowly develop.
I see the wedding-guest within my self as that part of me that wants comfort and fun today, wanting an easier way to proceed with life, allowing my ego to regain leadership, keeping me from the real joy of life which is being engaged in my creative step by step development.
As the Mariner, I must over and over remind myself of my experiences of, hanging guilt around my neck; my lonely seperation from my spiritual-self trying to aviod what makes me human as if I only had value if I was perfect; remininding myself of the steps that lead me to committing to my spiritual gowth-- loving all things great and small. In other words even blessing my small fears; undisciplined behavior; conflicts in my actions, thoughts and feelings as the Mariner blessed the water-snakes. As I learn to love all things great and small within me than I will become more fully aware and love all things great and small within all people.
Like Tiny Tim "God bless...," or the Story of Saint Nick "...and to all a good night," the ending has a memorable phrase
He prayeth best, who loveth best
All things both great and small;
For the dear God who loveth
A sadder and a wiser man
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 20, 2000 - 01:19 am
There are many translations of I Ching or Book of Changes with Richard Wilhelm's probably considered the most uselful. But I particularly like Carol K. Anthony's work. She also has written The Philosophy of the I Ching and it is wonderful.
Ginny
October 20, 2000 - 08:10 am
Well I must say, very chuffed this morning at SN's being named one of the top 10 Sites on the Web, (see the Welcome Center) and the word LITERATURE prominently mentioned, now how about that one? It was our own Ella Gibbons and Maryal who brought that to our attention, see the Welcome Center for the url! Well done, I must say, well done!
A few thoughts on YOUR thoughts if the Cap'n can keep from bouncing all over the deck! This calls for a celebration, fine linen and china, Cap'ns table this evening at 6pm, be there or be square!
WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The good Admiral FOP said,
"So in my opinion it is not a real hero's tale at all as there is no good
concluding moral to the story. "
Ah Admiral, always with the new insights...I never considered that hero angle and must pause to do so. Yes, he....hum....had heroic adventures, standing up to horror and gale, yes he certainly had a tragic flaw but has not been undone by it, he continues to fight. Perhaps this poem disappoints subliminally by saying that here is a tragedy that the old guy refuses to LET be a tragedy, and now, for the VERY first time I do feel sorry for him, thank you Admiral FOP!!!!!
Ship's Doctor Betty said, "In the poem, nothing is separate, all actions are somehow connected to everything
else, in response to everything else."
Ah now there I totally agree, and that forms the basis for my own opinion of the poem, soon to be unveiled. So in that way the end is not only a letdown, it's neatly tied up? Like a package.
She also said, "Coleridge gives us a mystery and we don't like things left in the air, loose ends.
We want an answer, a solution. Maybe this is something the Mariner is searching for also, a
solution. "
I like that too, many good thoughts coming out here as we....have we anchored? Have we thrown out the anchor? Are we ready after the Cap'n's reception to go ashore?
I hate to see it go, to tell you the truth.
Jonathan said, "... leading to that experience. Most of the endeavour in the Bible, Old and New, is, it is
said, a search for God"
Again, so might this be, and so might this be taken. What a wonder of a poem that so many interpretations can be extrapolated on it and still hold.
Barbara, what a pean to commitment:
"That moment I definitely commit myself, then Providence also moves. All sorts of
things occur to help me that would never otherwise have occured. A whole stream
of events issues from the decision, raising in my favor all manner of unforeseen
incidents and meetings and material assistance, which no one could have dreamed
would have come my way. ""
You'll see that statement again, you can depend on it!!!!!
geepers, I can't concentrate! WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
Celebrate!@
Cap'n Triumphant!!!!!!!!!!!
ALF
October 20, 2000 - 10:12 am
Barbara: That is the richest, most prolific post yet in the Mariner. I am sitting here, in tears, stunned with the depth of that post. AMEN!
Jonathan
October 20, 2000 - 10:46 am
FaithP
October 20, 2000 - 04:28 pm
I have read many times the post which is your summing up of your experience with the mariner. As Alf said it is stunning. I could never have had the psychological insight into personal inner life that you wrote of.so.....stet
I am wheeeeing along with Cap't Ginny and getting ready for the linen and lace celebration. I have in the Admirals cabin that trunk remember, that I have supplied myself and my steward with goodies from and now all crew will be invited to partake of the balance in there as soon as we anchor and begin our celebration.
This has been a "Trip" Adm'l Fop
Ginny
October 20, 2000 - 04:33 pm
It sure has, in every sense of the word, the Cap'n has here some rare Muscadine and Scuppernong wine and her very own canapes with cinnamon and garlic, a feast to remember. Let's lift a glass, whether of grape juice, Diet Pepsi or Grog, to Coleridge and to the stout crew of this good ship and get a good night's sleep for Monday we will lower the gangplank and go ashore. If you have any last words, please post them here and tune in Monday for last gasps from all concerned!
Still don't know the answers to half the questions in the heading!
Cap'n Sorry to See it End
ALF
October 21, 2000 - 08:17 am
"Hoist down the John B sail, see how the red sail sets
call for the cap'n ashore----
I wanna go home."
Deems
October 21, 2000 - 08:20 am
O yes! The Kingston Trio and The Ship John B!!!! Morning to you, ALF. Our fearful trip is almost done and there are wonders galore in ADM Fop's storage chest and suppernong wine.
"Home is the hunter, home from the hill
And the sailor, home from the sea...."
Maryal
ALF
October 21, 2000 - 08:22 am
I love it, hey we're getting pretty adept at leaving these discussions without:
" A little bitty tear let me down
spoiled my act as a clown."
Deems
October 21, 2000 - 08:26 am
"Love em and leave em"---the sailor's creed!
Yet there is a small tear in me ee...........
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 21, 2000 - 09:47 am
As we divide up the booty from this journey I am delighted to be taking away so many riches that we have all worked so hard to plumb.
Ginny under your great direction we have stayed the course.
This tall tale so rich with legands, reveled in glory as we wrote our own Rime of understanding and explorations-- each of us from our own truth and as wide as our dreams we put forth our hearts stuffing our duffle bags with our own and Coleridge's dew-sprinkled mornings, star-studded nights, Kirk sheltered beaches and vistas of supernatural reflections.
Well its time to hoist my duffle on my shoulder, bidding y'all a hail and fond fairwell walking away "sadder and wiser" from this voyage.
FaithP
October 21, 2000 - 11:14 am
And so we part as I shuffle off to buffalo. or St.Louis or perhaps where the locamotive takes me. Trips as wonderful as this one are addictive and we keep traveling looking for more such excitment don't we. Off to our next journey. Adm'l Fop I will never have a better name. well Fae is awfully good...(my oxymoron for the day)
Ginny
October 21, 2000 - 01:42 pm
WHAT?? Hello? Monday is the last day, are the.....whatnots leaving the ship? It's not sinking, now you will NOT want to miss Monday, o sailors! Monday Monday!!!!!!!!!
Monday!
Cap'n Surprise on Monday
patwest
October 21, 2000 - 01:57 pm
Cap'n Sir... I'm at your service until we dock. Then I'm outta here.
Coming up for fresh air... from the hold... Where
I have been carefully reading and making notes of the posts.
As Purser, I would say it has been a successful
voyage... and the Mariner and his creator/maker have been duly scrutinized
from every possible angle.
There will be a bit of wait while those in charge
decide where our next sojourn into Great Books will be.
robert b. iadeluca
October 21, 2000 - 02:01 pm
Your Cabin Boy is very busy cleaning out the Captain's quarters before we dock.
Nellie Vrolyk
October 22, 2000 - 04:21 pm
My final comment: I have enjoyed everyone's thoughts on this poem. I read it mainly as a good sci-fi and horror type story; although I can see both the christian theme and the everyman theme in it as well. I just enjoyed it the most as a plain story.
fairwinds
October 22, 2000 - 04:34 pm
mille mercis for all your contributions. i just returned from a six week trip to the states. every once in a while i got to use my children's computers and enjoyed your comments so much...even though it was difficult to find time to pay close attention to the text like in the beginning.
fair winds to all crew and to the captain.
Ginny
October 23, 2000 - 06:33 am
Fairwinds!!!!! THERE ye are, coming up from the dingy on the side, Wheeooooo (ships whistle).
So glad to see you aboard for our disembarkation!
Here we are on the last day. My list of Mariners has been lost in a shuffle of Netscape to Zip Drive, and I did so want to say thanks to everybody for the great voyage.
I hope those of you looking in will post your parting thoughts as we lower the gangplank and prepare to go ashore.
My parting shot is this: I learned a lot in this discussion, I learned what POSH means and will never forget it if I ever sail again, I learned there was NO "Porlock incident," and that Coleridge was a man of many faces. I now understand his epitaph in the light of what I see his poem to be saying: to wit:
I think it's simply about "all things both great and small," from beginning to end, about that one thing. The Albert Schweitzer, don't step on an ant, shoot a bird, crush a spider, because all living things have meaning. If you DOOO, why, horror may result, whether real or in your own mind and then you'll have the devil of a time shaking it off, you may even be tortured by nightmares and the need to tell everybody "don't do what I did, pay attention to the details: God in in the details."
As you know there are many people who believe pride is one of the 7 Deadly Sins, because it essentially gives a person credit for what God has done for him. In Coleridge's case, I believe, in the light of the Mariner, he needs "mercy for praise, to be forgiven for fame" (if I remember that right) because in each instance he takes away from the real creator of same (ORRR... conversely in the light of the poem, it places the recipient of all that attention above his fellow men).
To me, it's a neat little package with some pantheism, naturalism, supernatural, religious and other things thrown in to emphasize the point.
I've enjoyed this voyage and want to thank all of you who attended and helped out: it's our FIRST ("We were the first that ever burst into that shining sea") effort at looking at a poem successfully and I hpe it's not our last here.
You all have earned extra rations, unfortunately, there's only mouldy potato salad left!
All Ashore That's Going Ashore!!
Any parting shots???
Cap'n Satisfied
Jonathan
October 23, 2000 - 11:13 am
patwest
October 23, 2000 - 11:29 am
I caught the "Capitaine Extraordinaire", Jonathon... and in my limited use of any language, I figured that we did indead have an extraordinary Captain... And thanks.
Any grog left?
Deems
October 23, 2000 - 02:09 pm
O, CAPN, Sir! What a fine job you have done, SIR!
And I agree with you on your interpretation--it comes down to "Into whatsoever ship you go, first of all, DO NO HARM."
And now........the called for grog all around. Tomorrow we'll be sober!!
Maryal
FaithP
October 23, 2000 - 02:25 pm
Fairwell, and fair winds until we meet again. My compliments to you Cap't Satisfied. I will take a cup of that grog and then depart. It is off through the States I go- by rail now in a book called Nothing Like It in the World by Stephen Ambrose. With my respect to all the members of the crew including the stowaway who has not revealed themself yet as I thought was promisied. Adm'l Fop
Barbara St. Aubrey
October 23, 2000 - 03:49 pm
Great voyage mates - and if we are ashore than a hot toddy or hot apple cider will be my choice for grog-- although my guess is the grog would warm us through and through. Something about the time of year with pumpkins and apples all over town.
Ginny this was one of the best-- thanks cap for bringing us safely into port.
betty gregory
October 23, 2000 - 06:29 pm
A
Salute to our Cap'n and a fond fare-thee-well to all shipmates!!! Twas a glorious journey!!
I've been looking half the day for a particular poem---thought I'd know it when I saw it, but instead, I kept running into themes on how we bring our personal perspective with us to the reading of poetry.
From Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's
Moonlight Illusion! Underneath there lies
The common life of every day;
Only the spirit glorifies
With its own tints the sober grey.
In vain we look, in vain uplift
Our eyes to heaven, if we are blind;
We see but what we have the gift
Of seeing; what we bring we find.
and from e.e. cummings:
for whatever we lose (like a you or a me)
it's always ourselves we find in the sea
--------------------------------------------------
You'll have to forgive the change of tone here, but I simply can't resist adding this line I found---
Sailing is like standing fully clothed under a cold shower, tearing up twenty dollar bills....Anonymous
Doc Betty
Ginny
October 24, 2000 - 05:38 am
What lovely farewells, even one in French, and a nice way to end our voyage, wonderful thoughts and quotes from all, I really ought to let our own epitaph here rest with the wonderful Longfellow and cummings (thank you sOO much, Betty) (and the SHOWER??) hahaha, we could talk on THAT one for a year!.... America's new Poet Laureate at the tender age of 95, Stanley Kunitz, had this to add about poetry, and I would like to include it, too:
"I see a new aliveness with all the poetry slams, the cowboy poets, the feminist and gay poets, the experiments with rap. It's like the beginning of the 19th century, the Romantic movement, which started with street ballads."
So that, to me, brings us full circle again, and I do thank each of you for your help in making this discussion of this old poem sing again.
This discussion is now closed and will be Archived shortly. Thank you all very much for participating.
Cap'n Home
Deems
October 24, 2000 - 08:54 am
CAPN, SIR----My shortterm memory agrees with Faith-----WHEN is the stowaway going to reveal him/her self? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Maryal
Ginny
October 24, 2000 - 09:20 am
The Stowaway is not going to reveal himself, having taken leave for a while due to personal circumstances? So that one will remain, like much of the poem, a mystery!
Cap'n Mysterious
betty gregory
October 24, 2000 - 09:32 am
The Articles of War speak to this treason----stowaways who SAY they are going to reveal themselves must keep their word, or face court martial and probable death. Those who cooperate in this treason may receive more severe punishment.
Ginny
October 24, 2000 - 09:45 am
hahahaha, Are you shouting that from the dock, Physician Betty? Well then the Cap'n as the sole person remaining on board will simply raise the gangplank and sail off! If the Mariner can sail INTO port with a ghostly crew the Cap'n can certainly sail OUT of it.
Amazing. This is THE most amazing discussion I have ever participated in, it's just NUTSO half of the time.
Too much grog!
Wave, Wave, that's the Cap'n waving to all of you on shore, WAVE!
hahahaha
Cap'n Wave
Jonathan
October 24, 2000 - 12:19 pm
Shipmates, what do you think of this? I'm deep into LA BAS, by J K Huysmans, writing a century after Coleridge. It's a fiction, but it makes use of historical material regarding the unnatural crimes of the infamous Gilles de Rais, who fought alongside Jeanne d'Arc. (This is definitely not a book to be 'discussed').
Suffice it to say, at one point the talk is about the God of Light and the God of Darkness. One of the characters in the book, enlargeing on the practice of devil worship among Manicheans, including the Albigenses of 12c France, lends some 'authority' to his case by saying, '...I can tell you what they did. An excellent man named PSELLUS has revealed to us in a book entitled: De operatione Daemionum...' You don't really want to hear the rest of this, do you? Go read the book.
Now where did Huysmans ever find out about this ancient dealer in Spirits!?
To all of you...may your next journey be an uneventful one!!!
Jonathan
Jonathan
October 24, 2000 - 12:39 pm
You're not alone, Capt'n Ginny. I'm still up in the Crow's Nest. What happened after the ship...'like a pawing horse'? I don't remember.
Ginny
October 24, 2000 - 01:17 pm
oops! I
thought I heard muttering coming from above, and it's Crow's Nest Jonathan, up there reading! Isn't it AMAZING how one book leads or references or blends into another? That's one of the great things about reading ANYTHING.
So.
Well, in that case, unfurl that sail, Crow's Nest Jonathan, you must have been Rip Van Winkle- like asleep after that pawing horse-like take off, because we need to slip out of this harbor, that gang on the dock looks ferocious!
Wait! What's
that? Did I hear a splash?
Are they in pursuit?
I think that everybody has not had their fill of Paul Simon!!!!!!! Do you all know that as that poem/song I quoted goes on, it says
"We come on the ship that sailed the moon...."
Now THERE is an eerie coincidence, n'est-ce pas?
Cap'n Coincidence
Jonathan
October 24, 2000 - 01:52 pm
Hang on to your hat, Captain. I feel another Storm-Blast coming. They'll never catch us. It reminds me how much I used to enjoy sitting through a movie twice when I was young.
Ginny
October 24, 2000 - 03:30 pm
no no, let me see now, "It IS an Ancient Mariner." Has anybody ever studied the present tense there and the capitalization of Ancient? Hmmmm?
Did his mother name him "Ancient?" My neighbor's name is "Early."
I had an aunt named "Floyd."
It's been a long voyage, hasn't it?
Cap'n Nutso