Hello everyone, and welcome! I hope you will join me in reading and discussing this lovely retelling of my favourite fairy tale.

I'll be here Nellie, because you are, and because I love fairy tales...

Thank you, Joan!

Nellie this book sounds delightful and May is so perfect a time to nestle into something that renews imagination - I used to have a rose garden but in recent years just could not keep it going and of course without nurturing, Rose bushes do not do well in our hot clime. And so I will not have any roses to pick as I read the book unless I stop and pick some up at the florist.

Barbara, I don't have any roses in my garden either. It would be lovely to have the aroma of a rose wafting through the air while reading this book.

I think we shall enjoy discussing it come May

I had forgotten that this book was originally slated to be discussed in May. We have been moved up to July as you can see. Everyone is still welcome.

I have asked my local library to locate "Rose Daughter" for me as a loaner. I hope to have it within a week, in time to join the discussion. I'm interested to see how the author turns Beauty and the Beast in SciFi. ..Babi

Hi Babi! Rose Daughter is Fantasy which is a lot different than SciFi. Fantasy has the aspects of a fairy tale, it contains magic rather than science.

I hope you will join us when you get the book. I like it very much myself.

I just had a maddening experience today...went to the library and looked for RD. The computer said it was NOT checked out, but it was nowhere to be found. Guess I'll check some branch libraries! Robin McKinley likes Beauth and the Beast though. I saw another book by her on the same subject.....

Joan, yes she does like the Fairy Tale as a subject -Beauty is another version of the same tale by her. She likes doing retellings of fairy tales, I recently saw a retelling of the Sleeping Beauty by her.

I have my copy of the book now, and have read the first couple of chapters. I was afraid it would be too juvenile, but I am enjoying it. McKinley is a good writer. I'll hold off now until the 15th so as not to get to far ahead.

If you are going to "re-tell" someone else's story, it is wise to go way, wa-a-a-y back. Look what happened to the gal who re-wrote Gone With The Wind from the slave's perspective. Actually, I think that was a good idea; it would definitely give an entirely different view. ...Babi

Welcome to the discussion everyone!

Today we meet Beauty and her sisters Lionheart and Jeweltongue. Are those not strange names to give to girls? What expectations as to the characters of the sisters do you have on seeing their names?

What do you think of their mother? Is she the type of woman you would expect an old staid merchant to marry?

I hope that you all enjoy the book

Hi Nellie! I got the book and must say it is full of surprises! I agree with BaBi...it is really a book! I was expecting a fairy-tale rewrite of Beauty and the Beast, not well-drawn characters and description - and more of a plot than a beast and a beauty!

And because of this, I was unprepared for the fantasy element..pet dragons and greenwitches, etc. After the first three chapters, I am now quite comfortable with the.....genre!

I have a feeling that papa has had more of a problem with the witches than we learn from the nanny...that he blamed his wife's soothsayers for not forewarning her of the danger on the day she died.

Why did this dull merchant marry this beautiful, dashing toast-of-the town is a good question. Perhaps the answer lies in another question. Why did she marry him? Was it witchcraft, a charm of sorts?

At first glimpse I was expecting the Lionheart's love of mischief and Jeweltongue's sharp (diamond-sharp?) tongue to bring some sort of torment to Beauty. That was after the first chapter. Why is that? I guess I am still trying to relate to fairy tales - but they are usually mean, ugly stepsisters.

The names can be taken in two ways...Lionheart can mean a daring, mischief maker, with a GREAT BIG HEART! And Jeweltongue can mean a sharp tongue, but also indicates a facility with words, the power to persuade, convince, to explain and to soothe. So they may just turn out to be kindly, helpful sisters to Beauty, as opposed to the jealous stepsister-types I was expecting.

Beauty's name...well, obviously she is beautiful, but we aren't told right off if her beauty is inner or on the surface. Or both!

Good morning, Nellie. I've been looking forward to this discussion.

I found myself captivated with the child Beauty from the beginning. She was quiet, shy, and stubborn. I could easily visualize her as a real person. At first Lionheart and Jeweltongue seemed about as real as paper dolls. The names were, of course, supposed to reflect their character/personality. I really like Jean's analysis of the name Jeweltongue. Lionheart I associate more with courage. I am noticing that most of the names in the story are clues to the character's role in the story. ...Babi

Joan, it is a good story, isn't it? I like those little magical touches of the pet dragon, the greenwitch, the little sphinxes in their cages. What did you think when Pansy the nanny tells Beauty that her mother smells of roses and that only sorcerers can grow roses?

I believe that Lionheart and Jeweltongue are Beauty's true sisters and not stepsisters. Both the older sisters seem to be quite fierce in character and Beauty is forever undoing the 'harm' they do to other people and animals. One of the things that surprised me when I first read the book was how practical Beauty is. Not only Beauty but her sisters too.

I think that we will learn quite a bit more about mother and why she married the old merchant later on in the story.

BaBi, Beauty is a real person right from the beginning, and a very likable one. I assume from her name that she is beautiful on the outside and I like that she is as beautiful on the inside.

What do you think of McKinley's use of names to denote character?

When the elder sisters get engaged you can right away tell the characters of the men they will marry, can't you? The Duke of Dauntless for Lionheart and the Baron of Grandiloquence for Jeweltongue. Fitting don't you think?

So far we have not yet learned what the merchant is called, have we? He is an important part of the story and yet he has no name. Is this a reminder that the story is, after all, a retelling of a fairy tale in which most of the characters are usually nameless?

I love to hear your thoughts on the story

Hmmmm, BaBi, you have given me another quality to look for in Beauty..her stubborness. So far, I haven't seen that. Nor have I seen anyone react to Beauty's beauty, I mean, she isn't drop-dead gorgeous so that people are eying her for that when she comes into town. Or are they? One sister did comment on her beautiful long hair that "glows"...but aside from that, no comments yet on Beauty's beauty. Many comments about how "nice" she is...to people, animals and plants, though.

Nellie, I got to thinking about what you said about Father's name... So far, I don't find it odd that he isn't called by his name because the only characters addressing him or talking about him are his daughters. It isn't too unusual that they don't refer to him by his name when I think about my own father. We kids never referred to him as Albert, or even "Al" growing up. Well, adolescence brought on snide remarks about "Big AL", but as a rule, he was "Daddy" and even though all five of us are grown in our 50's and 60's now, we still refer to him in memory as "Daddy".

I've read the first three chapters and see that Beauty works wonders with the overgrown thorn bushes and keep Pansy's comment in mind..."only sorcerers can grow roses"...which seems to indicate that Beauty may have "powers" that have not yet been revealed?

One thing I have learned in reading the third chapter ~ looking at my sorry roses, I myself am definitely NOT a sorceress. If I were Beauty though, I'd start to wonder what else I could do.

Later!

Joan, I think I decided Beauty had a real stubborn streak because, small as she was, every chance she got she was back in the garden. The nurses fussed about it, but it made not the slightest difference to Beauty. I see a lot of quiet determination in this youngest daughter.

The names of the two "fiances" rather turned me against them. "Dauntless" and "Grandiloquence" sound terribly stuffy. I began to like Lionheart and Jeweltongue when I saw they could appreciate their little sister's work with the flowers. I REALLY liked them when I saw how they responded to their fiance's dereliction. No honor in that pair. Then, the way they took hold of new responsibilities so readily, even fiercely. These girls are way too good for the likes of that 'grand' and 'dauntless' duo.

Joan, if I were Beauty I'd not only wonder what other powers I might have, but I would also wonder where I got the power to grow roses in the first place.

Because of her name I tend to picture her as being very lovely to look at; but it is true that the people around her do not react to her as being beautiful in appearance and we are told more about her inner beauty. There is that mention of shining golden hair, but someone can have lovely hair and yet not have a lovely face to go with it -now I'm changing my picture of Beauty somewhat; I see her now as more plain looking but not ugly because that would be too disparate with her hair.

BaBi, I thought that 'Grand' and 'Dauntless' sounded like two 'prissies' by their names and certainly not worthy of the two sisters. Not only were they prissies but cads as well since it was obvious they were only marrying the girls for their money since as soon as the money did not exist anymore the weddings were off.

I loved the piece where Lionheart teaches herself to cook and they can hear her banging away two floors away; and Jeweltongue discovering a talent for sewing. Her making a skirt out of old curtains, a bodice out of an old counterpane and collar and cuffs out of stained napkins made me think for a moment of Gone With the Wind. How about you?

Beauty's determination stands them in good stead because her going through all those boxes of their father's papers allows her to find the Will in which Rose Cottage is left to them and that gives them a new place to live, away from the place of their loss.

What did you think of the little salamander that pretends to be a garden ornament which gives Beauty the gift of a 'little serenity' that she can hold in her hands? And when she looks in her cupped hands it is like there is a small fire burning there.

I am much enjoying discussing this book with both of you

Good morning, ladies.

I think it is apparent that the scene with the salamander and his little gift is going to be very important later on. These magical "gifts" always are. As to Beauty's beauty, I envision her as having a quiet loveliness of her own; simply not the extravagant beauty that would cause one to be so named for that reason. Her beauty is mostly inward, I think. Later in the book she thinks of her name as being given to her simply because she did not have any vivid characteristic, such as her sisters had, for which she could be named.

Have you noticed the small theme that I find repeated more than once: that people find perfections most uncomfortable and/or irritating. The goodness of others, or the perfections of others, shows up our own shortcomings, and we dislike them for it. It is not hard to see why people always seem to kill their prophets and saints; they can't stand the comparison with themselves. . ...Babi

Babi, I agree with you in that seeing perfection in others makes us uncomfortable because it points out our own imperfections. Do you think that Beauty is perfect? Her sisters Lionheart and Jeweltongue certainly are not; they have their small faults. But Beauty seems to have no faults at all. Her stubborness could better be called determination because she exhibits none of the negative qualities I associate with being stubborn.

I can really get caught up in thinking about the nature of 'beauty' itself. Do we look at something and declare it 'beautiful' when we perceive no imperfections? Can something be flawed, imperfect and yet be 'beautiful'?

There is so much magic in and around Rose Cottage. It has stood open and deserted for many years, and yet there is no sign that any animals made their way in or that everything is dirty and mildewed as would be expected.

I liked it that the old merchant laughed when he saw the chestnut tree and remembered being a champion conker-player in his youth. I have this feeling that he will be happier in that humble cottage than he ever was in his big mansion.

Nellie, determination works for me; I'll strike stubborn. You're right, she does not have the "stubborn" quality of insisting on her own way, at all, at all.

There is certainly more to true beauty than physical appearance. I have seen physically beautiful people whose behavior was so ugly that the beauty became meaningless. On the other hand, I recall a young youth minister with a terrible scar all along one side of his face. The first sight of him was always shocking. Yet as I came to know him I no longer noticed the scar at all.

I also enjoyed the "conkers" episode. Right there is where I began to like the old man. Before then he had just been the distant father, the hot-tempered anti-magic merchant. I think it is obvious by now to everyone that his failure in the city was the best thing that could have happened to this family. ...Babi

Stereotypes work both ways...I find that when I meet real "beauties", my first thought is ...a pretty face, but. It takes a while to get to know a person, but I know lots of people who are drawn to the pretty face. I'm always suspect. Something in me believes that people growing up with a pretty face have come to expect special treatment and consideration...that they are spoiled and become, through no fault of their own, self-centered. This is over-stated, of course. But I am not automatically drawn to the handsome, the beauty.

Our Beauty is not perfect...wasn't it good to know she was human when she lost patience, and actually threw a plate across the room?

These girls are all doing very well, aren't they? Beauty is the one who seems to have the rapport with her mother's spirit...the one who misses her the most. She was the youngest when her mother died. I completely empathasized with her when she realized to her dismay that she could no long remember her mother's face, but could remember her rose scent. The same happened to me...but I was the oldest child. My mother died when I was seven and it wasn't too long after that that I realized I couldn't see my mother's face any longer. I was in a boarding school and had no photographs. But I could recognize lily of the valley scent, and still associate that with her. I feel that Beauty is going to have some sort of contact with her mother before the story is finished. The cottage seems to be a link. I wonder who was the old lady who lived in this house before Beauty...the old lady who left them the cottage? A grandmother? But wouldn't Father have known the woman? Maybe he does...

Chapter IV moves the story into the enchanted palace...and Father starts to act like a real father. Probably more so than if his business had never failed. I agree, BaBi, this "misfortune" has turned out to be the best thing that could have happened to the family.

Babi, the old merchant's failure of his business and the loss of his fortune was the best thing that happened to the little family. Would the three sisters ever have become as independent? I don't think so. They had to learn to do the things for themselves that others had done for them. It says something about the characters of Lionheart, Jeweltongue and Beauty that they were able to handle being suddenly poor so well.

Joan, I think it adds to a story when there is some little thing in it to which you can relate on a personal level. I could see why the girls father was acting like he was: he had spent all his life at his work and now he was forced into retirement and bored. He sleeps all the time at first because of that boredom. I know because I sort of went through the same sudden 'forced retirement' because of my legs which could not handle the active kind of job I had. I slept a lot too at first.

Father is slowly getting more of an interest in life.

Were either of you surprised by Lionheart disguising herself as a young man to get the job as stablehand at Oak Farm?

And always we are reminded of magic in this story: there is the strange statue that keeps changing until Beauty scolds it and then it becomes something almost beautiful.

Beauty's garden is a magical thing; but I think that all gardens are magical. Even the tamest looking garden with neatly trimmed hedges, perfectly manicured lawn and neatly edged flowerbeds is wild at its heart, and therein lies the magic.

I recently had a special experience of garden magic. I was walking around my small front garden when I saw within one of the leaves on my hostas a face smiling at me. I even mamaged to get a picture of it. The next day the face in the leaf was gone and I have not seen it again. I think it was the wild magic heart of my garden showing itself for a moment of time.

More tomorrow

I'm not into the story too far, but it was interesting to read that in adversity the 3 sisters were able to face their adversity and learn new skills for survival. They kept their pride, but were not proud as before their father's tragic loss.

Lesson here: You can do/learn what is necessary to survive... if you decide to.

Joan, some more on beauty. I have noticed it sometimes happens just the opposite of what you were noting. Notice how often you hear people wondering, "How could a beautiful girl like that marry such a homely man?" I believe it sometimes happens that someone with a great physical beauty grows very unhappy with everyone basing their worth on that one factor. Too few pay attention to their thoughts and opinions, or consider their value as a person. They know better than the less "favored" how shallow a thing beauty is, and show it by looking for other things entirely in the person they marry. The man who can look past the facade and appreciate the person is the one who is going to be appreciated in return. That is not true of all, of course, perhaps of only a few. It is hard not to be proud of one's beauty if everyone else is constantly praising it.

Nellie, I wasn't really surprised at Lionheart's decision to pose as a boy so she could find work with the horses. It is entirely in character for her.

I did hope the father would be able to salvage something from his "ship coming in". Just a bit to help them along..get a new skirt for Jeweltongue, etc. But I can understand why the author didn't take that route. This family seems to be at it's best depending on themselves.

The magic is showing up more and more plainly. In the garden, and of course in that ephemeral palace where the father shelters from the storm, and picks up that magical rose. ...Babi

One more thought on being beautiful to look at: I think in a way it is just as hard to be very beautiful as it is to be very ugly. In both cases people very seldom look below the surface to find the person within.

I like how the old merchant gets more and more back into life. He fixes and builds things around the house and gets work as a bookkeeper for some of the village businesses.

Beauty makes her roses into wreaths and sells them in the market. There a woman says she -Beauty-reminds her of someone else. The woman also says that there is no magic in Longchance. Beauty reminds the woman of the beautiful girl who lived with the ageless old woman in Rose Cottage. I think that lovely girl was Beauty's mother. Don't you?

I like this bit about roses:

"Roses are for love. Not forget-me-not, honeysuckle, silly sweethearts' love but the love that makes you and keeps you whole, love that gets you through the worst your life'll give you and that pours out of you when you're given the best instead."

I'm wondering what the curse is on the Rose Cottage that is related to three sisters living there, aren't you?

Pat W, how nice to see you and welcome to our discussion.

On the three young women learning to do what is necessary to survive: I think they have always had to be independent because neither of their parents was around much.

More later....I enjoy your thoughts on the story everyone

Yes, the moment I read about the girl raised by the old woman at Rose Cottage, I was confident that was the girl's mother. I wonder, of course, why she ran away. The old woman was obviously greatly saddened by it. In the earlier part of the book, I did have an impression of the mother as being very volatile and not much of a mother.

It was a pleasure to read of the old man taking a new interest in life and beginning to be active about the place. Of course, I was curious as to what he was writing. I thought at first it might be some sort of book about business, and the story of his career. But that doesn't seem like the sort of thing to cheer him up and help him heal, as he is doing.

Doesn't it seem surprising to the rest of you that practical people could be so accepting of magic that the father could see the sudden appearance of food, baths and beds without his hair standing on end? Could you have eaten the food, stepped into the tub, and slept peacefully on that bed? ...Babi

hahaha...BaBi, it would depend just how hungry and tired I was! But yes, as a reader too I find I have to adjust to the fantasy world the author presents as commonplace...and once that is accepted, then I find a comfort level.

The dreams, the dreams...in our real world there are still those strange, often mystical, often incomprehensible dreams. Sort of a cross between the real and the fantasy world. I never know how to react to my dreams...to ignore them or to take them as warnings. Very vivid dreams. The one thing I cannot do in dreams...I can do lots of things, but can't read. If someone hands me a piece of paper with the one word that can save me written on it, I'm sunk...can't read it!

Beauty's dreams are back and getting more frightening when her father is away...the same time that her father meets up with the beast of the enchanted palace.

This beast bears such a strong resemblance to the one in Beauty's dream who seems to be biding his time waiting for ...something! He finally catches father stealing a rose for Beauty, and threatens to send Beauty to him or he'll come get her. Her dream beast and this beast seem one and the same. She should probably take her dream as a warning, but I cannot imagine what good it will do her yet.

We seem to agree that the "beautiful little girl" the old woman took in is Beauty's mother...do you think her name was "Rose" ~ hence the title "Rose Daughter"? But then why not "Rose's Daughter"?

I'm thinking of Father's secret project that seems to comfort him, and remembering that this beautiful "Rose" suddenly up and left the old woman ...to marry him? There's a story there. Father seems so opposed to magic in his home...there is something that happened that took away his "Beautiful Rose" that turns him against magic altogether...although you are right, he doesn't seem to mind any of the enchantment associated with the palace...except of course, the BEAST!

Joan, you had posted your message before I left SeniorNet, so it popped up again for me. I had to respond to your posting.

I was certain from the beginning of the book that Beauty's dream was a foreshadowing of events to come. I studied dreams for years and can say confidently that all dreams have relevance. If you are interested, I have a forum on dream interpretation in SeniorNet under Lifestyles.

I believe the title "Rose Daughter" refers to Beauty, because of her close affinity with roses and her ability to make them grow and flourish.

I have the impression from somewhere that the father's anger against all practitioners of magic came from his wife's death, because they failed to protect her and keep her safe. If that blizzard had not made it essential that he find shelter, I suspect he would have had nothing to do with that enchanted palace. But then, if he had not been in desperate need of shelter, would he have found it in the first place? Actually, since this event was apparently fated from the beginning, the unusually fierce storm would have to be part of the magic as well, wouldn't it?

BaBi, while I may accept the presence of magic quite easily in a story, if the same thing happened in real life it would be a very different thing. I would be very suspicious of the food and would poke everything with a fork first and even then would not eat it. The same with the bath and the bed.

The father is oddly accepting of the magic in the palace considering that he is so anti-magic.

I think that Beauty's dreams foreshadow or foresee something that will happen to her. Dreams are interesting things.

Joan, I have heard it said that not being able to read is a way of telling that you are dreaming.

The family has had two good years in Rose Cottage and the third year begins with rain and Beauty's roses not blooming. They all seem to be snapping at each other. In the midst of all that trouble father gets news that one of his trade ships has been found and he travels to the city to see if there is anything he can salvage.

I wonder if he hoped to return to his old life, if only for a moment?

More thoughts tomorrow. I'm going to visit BaBi's dream discussion.

I posted my message, and it disappeared! Well, I'll try again.

Nellie, I think there is a great difference between being angry with the practitioners of magic, and not believing in it. He was anti-magic because his wife's sorcerers had not saved her. He would not trust them again. But in the palace, he was cold, hungry and exhausted. It would serve no purpose to refuse the food, warmth and rest he so badly needed. He believed in magic, he just didn't want his family involved with it any more.

I couldn't helpt thinking the business with the rose the next morning was a set-up. It was a cut rose, lovely but of no intrinsic value that anyone could see. The father could not have thought the owner would object to his taking it with him. It seemed to me a way of placing the old man under obligation, so that he would promise what the Beast asked. And when the Beast heard that the man's daughter had a "magical" way with roses, it meant something to him, something very important. ....Babi

BaBi, I thought the rose thing was a set up on the part of the Beast too. But wouldn't that mean he knew about Beauty before her father told about her?

The Beast is certainly frightening at first and father does not even dare look at his face. But when the Beast stands there turned away and looking dejected father feels like going over to pat him on the shoulder to make him feel better.

Now father has promised to send Beauty to be a companion to the Beast. I wonder what changes are in store for her?

I think I would have believed the Beast when he said Beauty would be safe, even if I didn't already know the original story. One feels sorry for him, not afraid of him. Everything about this place says this is an enchanted man, not a true beast or monster. Of course, after who knows how long in this trap, he could have become vicious, but it is fairly apparent he didn't.

We next see the father going home, telling the story, insisting that he will return himself but that Beauty must not go. Then, of course, he has to fall sick so that Beauty can fulfill the promise, or the whole story goes off track, right? ...Babi

BaBi, yes Beauty is the one who has to go to the Beast, otherwise there would be no story.

The rose father brings home is imbued with magic for it is still looking perfect and fresh after hours in his coat pocket when it should have been showing signs of wilt.

Father and Beauty argue over who will go to the Beast. Since father falls ill, it is Beauty who goes. What did you think of her way of finding the path the the Beast's palace?

I forget if there was any mention of roses in the original fairy tale. Do you remember? They are the focus of the story and the magic here. And the element of mystery as to the identity of the young girl who lived in the cottage...we assume this was Beauty's mother - this is not in the original tale, is it? I sense there is or was some relationship between that young girl and the Beast, but can't imagine what it can be.

That perfect rose...black/red...like velvet. Do you ever catch yourself saying "that flower is so beautiful it looks artificial"? That's how I see this rose...so perfect, it would appear to be artificial except for the strong wild scent and those fierce thorns. Beauty wakes up with drops of blood on her pillow after dreaming of those thorns and the scent. That's scarey. Is this an omen?

Yeah, Nellie, that was some way to make an important decision...turn around three times with eyes shut until good and dizzy and voila, there's the correct path. I think this method shows Beauty's certainty that the path is enchanted and that it really doesn't matter which way she chooses, she will take the right one to the palace.

She did take the embroidered heart that Jeweltongue made for her...but did you notice that she also went back for a "secret thing"? Let's tuck that away for a later date. What's your guess as to what it was?

There has been a lot added to the original version in this story; it's what makes the book so enjoyable. It's been a long time, but I seem to remember that Beauty's father picked a rose from a bush or a hedge in the original story. I could be wrong about that. I don't remember a mother being present at all; I think she had already died in the original. I guess we have to remember that the original was for younger children. Robin McKinley was aiming at an older, wider audience. Successfully, I must say.

On finding the right path, I agree with Joan. She had not the least idea how to find it naturally; the supernatural/magic way was all that was left. I think if she had simply shut her eyes and walked three steps forward..or one...or five..the right path would still have been there. ...Babi

Joan, there is a link to the original Beauty and the Beast fairy tale in the heading. There are similarities but mostly there are lots of difference. The only roses in the original story are those of the rose hedge by the Beast's castle of which the father picks one.

Another difference: in the original fairy tale father brings Beauty to the palace; in this story she goes alone.

Realizing that the Beast must be a great sorcerer, Beauty wonders if her roses grow because of his presence nearby. She was working up quite a dislike for the Beast before she thinks of that. I have the feeling that the Beast may not know what he has let himself in for.

That formal, very stark, garden in front of the palace makes Beauty feel unwelcome and fearful. Not a very good beginning to her stay in the palace is it?

Would you go into that dark open front door?

Her first look at the Beast is surprising to her and to us:

As it was, she was surprised into looking into the Beast's face.

The contrasts she found there were too great: wisdom and despair, power and weakness, man and animal. These made him far more terrible than any hungry lion, any half-tamed hydra, any angry sorcerer, terrible as something that should not exist is terrible, because to recognize that it does exist shakes that faith in the foundations of the natural world which human beings must have to bear the burden of their rationality.

What did you think of this first meeting?

I'm glad Beauty was surprised into looking into Beast's eyes. I believe we could get past a whole lot of wrong impressions if we would look people in the eyes. Beauty realized that though this was a Beast, it was not the monster she had feared in her childhood dreams.

The incident that evening in the dark hall, when the terror of her old nightmares overcame her, was the first time she felt any real fear of Beast. She overcame it very bravely because she realized she had caused Beast great pain. I don't believe she will ever be afraid of him again.

Doesn't the description of the dresses, the jewelry lying on the matching towels, the shoes, make you long to see them? It made me wish I was 18 again, with the opportunity to wear those beautiful things. ...Babi

Oh BaBi, are you actually remembering lovely gowns and jewels from your maidenhood, wishing you were eighteen again? Which reminds me...how old is Beauty? I know she's the youngest of the three. Is she 18 now? I had very few "lovely" gowns and no jewels when I was 18, but IF I did, I could have fit into them.

I thought of you when I woke up this morning, BaBi...actually when I woke up from a dream. Don't remember much, EXCEPT that it was a strange dream and I read something in the dream for the first time in my life. I remember a woman on the left, and a man on the right. Painted (or tatooed?) across her chest in an elaborate design was the word "LONE", and then his read "STAR". Oh my. I won't waste any time trying to figure out where any of that came from...but the point is that I COULD READ THE WORDS.

Beuaty's dreams all seem to make sense in due time. Her old dreams of a frightening beast come to her for a reason. I can't figure out the dreams she is having about the folks back home. I get the feeling they are not dreams, but enchanted glimpses into what is really happening at the time.

Nellie, I felt that the sharp contrasts Beauty experienced sort of cancelled out one another, which left her in a neutral tranquil state when confronted by the appearance of the beast. She does accept the most difficult situations with equanimity, doesn't she? I marvel each time I see her smile and laughing at anything during her "captivity". I don't think I'd find humor in anything at all while I was being kept from my home and family...by anyone, let alone a beast.

I think it was the fact that the beast exhibited "human" qualitiies that threw her off balance. She was expecting, had prepared herself for an animal of some sort, but the human characteristics, his vulnerability made him more of a mystery to her, incomprehensible really. She wasn't ready for that. What's a "half tamed hydra"? Whatever, it sounds like a good description of what it was she was confronted with.

Good morning, Joan and Nellie. Okay, Joan, we won't go into the "Lone"-"Star". But I also felt Beauty's "dreams" were actual glimpses of what was happening at home. It also appeared to me that time was passing much faster there than in the enchanted palace. I am certain Beauty has been gone much longer than she realizes.

Humor is the saving grace in all situations, isn't it. Look at the wry humor that comes from soldiers in war; they have to laugh or go nuts. But Beauty did miss her family greatly. Every time she had her "dreams" of them she was almost frantic with the urgency to complete her job and return. And that is really how she seemed to deal with her situation: that she was there to restore the roses, and then she could go home....Babi

BaBi, those dresses sound gorgeous and I wanted to see them too, and be young and slim enough to wear them.

The whole suite of rooms she has been given is sumptuous, isn't it? Roses everywhere. Big cabbage roses on the carpets. Small climbing roses on the wallpaper. Roses carved into table edges. Roses inlaid in the table top. They wind around the torcheres. I think I would have asked for a few less roses in the decor, if I were Beauty. And there is that luxurious bathroom with the bath tub as big as a lake -Beauty's sense of humour is coming out there, I think.

Joan, doesn't Beauty first feel as if she is melting away when she sees the Beast? I think it is her recalling the 'serenity' that the salamander gave her and her using it, that pulls her back together. After that she seems to be able to handle the presence of the Beast quite well. Though later on he does frighten her again when he sneaks up on her when she is on her way to the dining room.

Beauty finds the big glass house filled with dead and dying roses. My first thought was "If only sorcerers can grow roses and the Beast is supposedly a sorcerer, then he can't be a very good sorcerer because he can't grow roses very well." Maybe the Beast is not a sorcerer at all?

BaBi, she does seem to believe that she is there, like some hired hand, to restore the roses to life and then she will be able to go home to her family.

Every night the Beast asks her "Will you marry me?" and her answer is always "Oh no, Beast." Do you wonder what will happen if and when she says 'yes'?

Time does seems to pass more slowly in the palace. I like the way that we see what is happening to the other characters in the story through Beauty's dreams.

BaBi and Joan, thanks for being here with me.

IMHO, when Beauty says "Yes" to the Beast, the enchantment will be broken. Surely that is where all this is headed. And Beast could still be a sorcerer, only severely limited by the enchantment on him. Obviously, some other sorcerer must have been more powerful. Which brings up the thought: Why did this happen? Was this some battle between sorcerers?

There is another theme running through the book, though not a new one. A distinction is being made between "good" magic, as used by greenwitches, and "bad" magic used by sorcerers. The part that bothers me is that the "bad magic" practitioners always seem to be more powerful than the "good magic" practitioners. Or is it simply the old story of "power corrupts", so that the more powerful you are, the more likely you are to misuse that power? ..Babi

Babi...I was posting and missed seeing your last message just now...will be back when I get home...

Nellie, an interesting thought...the beast not being the sorcerer because he can't grow the roses. Perhaps he is enchanted, by the real sorcerer.

Yes, the roses seem a bit "busy" in the decor, don't they? Whomever is the decorator seems to have had Beauty's love for roses in mind and thought she might enjoy them? Or perhaps this room was decorated before she got there. I'm thinking that the sorcerer who created the room prepared it with Beauty in mind. But I'm wondering who planted the original thorny bushes. Someone with the same love for roses that Beauty has.

I was totally unprepared for the Beast's marriage proposal...she has only just arrived! She can't even bring herself to look at him, he hides himself in the shadows. If she thinks she's there to do the job of reviving the rose gardern, what does she make of the proposal, BaBi? He just drops the question into the conversation and then says good night. Nothing more. It's the only hint of "romance", so far, isn't it?

She is quite matter-of-fact. Why "no", Beast. As if she's been asked if she'd like another after dinner mint.

I'm at work today...must get back to the real world...which is not without its own enchantment!

BaBi, interesting thought: is the Beast a sorcerer who lost a battle with another sorcerer? Maybe he lost a lot of his magic powers that way and that is why he can't grow the roses any more.

Joan, the whole proposal and refusal is not romantic at all. It reminded me of an incident in my own life. I was flying home from where I was living at the time for Christmas and this not bad looking man sat down in the seat beside me and said, "I need a wife. Will you marry me?" Of course I said "no".

I like the way Beauty talks to the invisible something or someone who acts as a servant for her. Things happen just the way she wants them to. The Beast is determined to keep her happy, isn't he?

The picture of her humble old clothes hanging in a corner of the hanging cupboard away from all the fancy clothes and looking self conscious is a good one. And there is the surprise of the butterflies.

I wonder who the haughty looking lady in the portrait is?

All Beauty has to do to get something is to say that she needs or wants it. Like the sturdy working gloves. Would you like it if you could just say "I need this or that" and then it would be there?

Beast's proposal of marriage was decidedly abrupt. I'm sure Beauty didn't know quite how to take it. I think now she responded the way we would to someone who didn't really understand what they were asking-- gently, but firmly. The proposal would be terribly premature, even in normal circumstances. I don't know why Beast didn't wait a while.

It's just as well I can't have whatever I want just by speaking the words; I could get in SO-O-OO much trouble! Definitely demoralizing and bad for one's character.

Well, we know now what Beauty took with her from home...those rose hips and seedlings. Don't you wish your plantings would grow that fast? And doesn't that glasshouse sound incredibly beautiful? I hope that doesn't vanish with the enchantment. (For of course the enchantment MUST eventually be broken.) And it appears plain from her explorations that the events of the story are going to expand beyond the house and courtyard. ...Babi

BaBi, the glasshouse is beautiful and I can imagine what it will look like when all the roses are blooming.

What do you think of Fourpaws, the small gray and amber cat? The Beast thinks that she is a powerful sorcerer in her own land. So does that mean only sorcerers of sufficient power can pay short visits to the Beast? It would seem that he has been exiled for something he has done. Someone is helping him though because someone made sure that father made his way to the palace and someone made sure that Beauty would go there. For some reason I think it was someone else and not the Beast.

In another dream Beauty sees her family is doing well. Father reveals a talent for writing poetry and Jeweltongue has fallen in love with Whitehand, the town baker.

The palace is certainly an odd place. Don't you think so? When Beauty needs a place to put the lost little bat she finds a hidden underground room with tree roots coming down from the ceiling -but her rooms are two stories above ground. The palace also seems to change in size. When she is looking for a place to build a bonfire to burn all the trash from pruning the roses, the wall appears to grow as she walks along it. At one point there is a door, that appears and disappears.

She finds a tunnel that ends in a wild wood, and a clearing which is perfect for burning all the branches and twigs from the pruning. In fact all her trash is already there.

Yes I think that she will be exploring beyond the confines of the palace. We'll discover some interesting things as she does so.

I'm sure Beast has a friend trying to help him, and I'm fairly confident that is the Greenwitch who owned the Rose Cottage. I'm not sure how she is able to do so much, since we are told a Greenwitch does not have the power of a sorcerer. We shall see.

The weirdness of the palace reminds me of dreaming. You know how in dreams things can change so abruptly, with no warning or explanation. One minute you are in a car going someplace, the next minute you are on a bike and lost, too! I suspect a lot of fantasy began in dreams. What do you'all think?

With all that's happening at home, Beauty is becoming more and more anxious to get back there. But, remembering the original story, I think we can be sure that if she leaves Beast will be in grave danger....Babi

BaBi, fantasy beginning with dreams...that is a thought. There is a dreamlike quality to this story and the way things change in the palace. Perhaps it may be better said that the palace is dreamlike as if it does not exist in the here and now world of the story.

I'm not sure if all fantasy has its origin in dreams. Do myths have their origin in dreams? I think that fairy tales originate out of myths and our modern fantasy stories grew out of the fairy tale.

Beauty is feeling lonely for a human presence. She is even looking forwards to talking with the Beast and resolves to think pleasantly of him. She firmly believes that once his roses are alive and blooming that he will allow her to go home.

There is a lot of tension between the two of them in the dining room that evening isn't there? Beauty wants to touch the Beast, and yet she fears to because touching him is going to make him real to her. Finally when their hands touch his is soft as a peach. Not at all what you would expect is it?

What do you think about the Beast having the odour of roses?

"How could a Beast smell so sweetly of roses?"

asks Beauty of herself and tears run down her face.

He is so gentle as he smears the salve over her scratched arms. His talons never touch her skin. That is what I like about this version of the fairy tale -the relationship between Beauty and the Beast develops slowly and yet quite logically.

More thoughts tomorrow...

Nellie, when the Beast began to gently slather the salve on Beauty's arms...well that scene was bordering on the erotic, don't you think? Beauty, blushingly is beginning to react to the "man" within the beast as he unbuttons her sleeves, she feels his breathe on her skin, and smells his...rose perfume.

Actually, Beauty started blushing before she even reached the dining room that night when she thought of him as "My Beast". Why did the tears come when she smelled his rose scent? Why did she wake up the next morning in tears, as she remembered that her sleeves were undone in the dream? Why tears?
Did you notice that when the Beast asked her to marry him that night, Beauty did not answer him in her usual matter-of-fact way? " 'Oh no, Beast', she whispered and fled." Is she fleeing from her own growing feelings for him?

All this talk about the scent of roses...can YOU smell roses these days? I seem to have lost the ability to smell them and wonder if this comes with age? I smell lots of other things, but always "stop to smell the roses" as I walk the red terrier each day...and can't smell them! I'm beginning to get upset about this!

What is a "numen"... "a numen which cannot touch the living." If it cannot touch the living, what CAN it do? I think I need a numen around here. So many times I comment (mostly to myself) when looking at all the unfinished tasks around here...that if only I wished something done, it would magically get done. Could my "numen" take care of such things?

You've both got me wondering about the supercillious woman in the portrait. Our Beauty is sticking her tongue out at her now...did you see her? I'm sure we will hear more about her down the road. Is there any connection between her and the former occupants of Rose Cottage. You think there may be some connection to the Greenwich, BaBi? There sure is a "rose-scented" connection between the two places.

(I liked the baker's name, Jeweltongue's new beau..."Whitehand".)

Good point about fantasy vs. myth, Nellie. I have always believed myths had their basis in actual events, that got "enlarged" over the years by the story-tellers. It would be easy to expand the myth even further to create fantasies.

Beast's gentleness in treating Beauty's scratches was endearing. I felt her tears on waking were because she has begun to recognize the tragedy of Beast's predicament. And I think you are quite right, Joan, to note that Beauty fled the room on this occasion, and her blushes are revealing.

(Joan, I suspect I can't smell as well as I once did, either. On the other hand, many of the more hybrid roses, and other hybrid flowers, don't have the fragrance of the earlier roses. Even when I was a young woman, with my nose at full function, I noticed that.)..Babi

Joan, that whole scene is very sensual. I think she cries at the Beast's scent of roses because she loves roses and yet cannot bring herself to consider loving the Beast. The scent would also remind her of home and her family.

Here is an entry on 'numen' from Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: nu·men
Pronunciation: 'nü-m&n, 'nyü-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural nu·mi·na /-m&-n&/
Etymology: Latin, nod, divine will, numen; akin to Latin nutare to nod, Greek neuein
Date: 1628
: a spiritual force or influence often identified with a natural object, phenomenon, or place.

Is Beauty fleeing from her own burgeoning feelings for the Beast? I think so.

Beauty brings life into that dead place, doesn't she? There are the butterflies, the little bat, and now all the hedgehogs. Is she bringing something to life in the Beast? Maybe she is bringing to life the human that is in him?

Beauty explores the side of the courtyard she has not yet seen and finds an arch leading into an orchard where all sorts of fruits are growing even though it is out of season. The Beast is there. I find it interesting that she sees him eat an apple, since an apple is associated with Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge. And the Beast provides her with knowledge about himself: how he can only eat fruits and vegetables because he sent away the animals; how the trees provide fruit all year round out of their own free will and out of his need.

Beauty mentions that the glasshouse is the only thing in the place that never changes; the only thing that is real. Then the Beast says:

"It is the heart of this place, and it is dying."

Beauty gets quite vehement about doing everything she can to keep it alive.

Where does the cheese, butter, and bread come from?

Isn't that vegetable garden ever something? Everything in it is larger than life!

I thought the appearance of all the little animals was one of the most engaging ideas the author used. I was waiting with as much interest as Beauty to see what would show up next. The reappearance of the animals definitely plays up how Beauty is bringing life back to the place.

I did think the vegetable garden was a bit overdone, tho. Why on earth have such big vegetables when there is only one person, now two, to eat them? Not that anyone appears to be cooking vegetables; the food appears by magic.

I'm not so much asking who left the cheese, butter and bread, as why? I am forced to conclude that the food prepared for Beauty is from the gardens and orchard, only it's preparation is magical. Since there are no animals to produce butter, cheese, etc., they have to come from outside. As to who, I am inclined to identify all old women on the fringes of the story with the Greenwitch. ...Babi

PS: I found the same definition of 'numen'. Good word, and perfect fit. ..B

BaBi, that garden is so much bigger than life, that is for sure. I just assumed that the Beast has a large appetite and needs lots of veggies to keep it satisfied. But I could be wrong since we never see him eat much of anything.

There is not just the vegetable garden, there is also the fields of sweet corn and barley. You'd think there was a whole army of people living in the palace instead of only the Beast and Beauty. And after eating some of the peas and lettuce and figs Beauty suddenly feels that those things will provide no nourishment for her.

BaBi, what I just said in the previous paragraph, maybe that explains the why of the cheese, butter and bread. It is brought in from outside to provide Beauty with the nourishment she needs.

I wonder what the thought is that is trying to catch her attention?

Another dream of home makes her feel trapped where she is and ever more eager to go home.

I was surprised that only 4 days have passed since Beauty arrived at the palace. Somehow it seems more like months or even years. The roses in the glasshouse are beginning to sprout and the seeds she planted are coming up. Certainly that is not something that happens in only 4 days?

The rose odour of the Beast: I don't think it is just a perfume he wears. Roses seem to be some integral part of him. He says that Beauty's father took his heart when he took the rose for Beauty.

There is a sparkling spider web inside the balcony doorway this time.

Nellie, of course you are right about the vegetables, etc. If they are "magic" things, I suppose they could only nourish magical beings, ie., the Beast part of Beast....if that makes sense.

That particular rose, the only one still blooming in the glasshouse when Beauty came, seems to be closely associated with Beast's life. It would not have survived much longer; only a couple of stems were still budding and producing roses. Do you think that Beast would have died with the rose? Beauty's coming to save the roses may well have been his last chance of survival, just as her loving him may be his only hope of breaking the enchantment. ...Babi

BaBi, Beauty is saving the Beast's life by saving his roses, I think that too.

There is a lot happening in a short time. After dinner the Beast takes Beauty to the roof of the palace. When she stumbles on the stairway he tells her that the palace has a strange relationship with the earth it stands on, and that when she wants to look at something to do it while standing still, and when walking look only straight ahead, and never to look out a window when walking past it. Such a very strange place it is. Another weird place is the hallway which is always dark. What does it hide?

What do you think of those paintings, those welcoming paintings, that the Beast has/is painting on the roof? There is so much more to him than just the fact that he is a Beast.

Finally, this time when he asks Beauty to marry him, she doesn't say no but just says Goodnight. Did seeing the paintings have anything to do with that?

Nellie, I would love to see a really good artist's rendering of those paintings on the roof. Or maybe they are more meaningful left to the reader's imagination. They added whole new dimensions to our perceptions of Beast; they must have done the same for Beauty.

Beauty is becoming more and more attached to Beast. I believe she is beginning to care for him more than she knows. Something is bound to happen to make her realize how much she cares. In the original story, that happened when she went home for a visit, and "forgot" to get back in time. I don't think Beauty would forget a promise she had made. ...Babi

BaBi, I see many pictures in this story -I'd love to see it as a movie, done by the people who made Howard's End with its lush look. But it is best left to the reader's imagination, I think.

Our Beauty would never forget a promise, but if there is some magic at work that makes people forget about the palace when they have been there, then that magic might have the same effect on her. We shall have to wait and see.

Seeing the old woman leave the basket by the door as she stands on the balcony: is Beauty dreaming or seeing something real?

Life is really returning to the place, isn't it? Now there were hundreds of toads in her room and she leads them over to the garden like a pied piper. There are bumblebees, grass snakes, slow worms, ladybirds, crickets, butterflies, slugs, snails, borers, beetles, gnats, and the hedgehogs and toads.

At dinner Beauty no longer fears the Beast, but now fears that her questions may hurt him. What do you think of dining as a ritual of being civilized and human?

There's such a fine line between dreams and wishes. Between wishes and daydreams. Can daydreams make wishes come true? Maybe and maybe not. But if you don't dream, will wishes ever come true?

Beauty asks

"What makes you think you are seeing anything but the shadows cast by your own fancies?"

It's becoming more difficult to tell when she's dreaming and when not. I think it's all a dream. No, I think that "life is but a dream, sweetheart"...remember that old song?

Beauty sees things in her dreams and then finds them when she's supposed to be awake...the old woman, the silver beasts. The silver beasts! Now is that a dream, or is she awake? Is she imagining things because she's been drinking the magic milk? Is this magic unicorn compost? Will it work its magic on the roses? Did you notice that the unicorn has rose breath too?

There is something familiar about the old woman who milks the cows...she has the "face of a friend". Brings to Beauty the "memory of long-ago comfort." Something to do with her mother perhaps?

And the Beast...he appears to have undergone "the change" a long time ago...so long that he can hardly remember. Since then he has learned to walk as a man, dress, talk...but he cannot physically wield the knife and fork! And he will not eat with her...as an animal would eat! A world of difference between the eating habits of a man and a beast, Nellie! Do you think he will ever bring himself to eat in her presence?

Babi, do you notice that each time Beauty says that when her roses grow she will be able to get out of there and go back home, she weeps? I think she is growing attached to the Beast too.

She really responds to his paintings...which he manages to do holding the paint brush in his teeth! He is really touched when Beauty responds to the painting of the Queen of the Heavenly Mountain..."If it looked at me from my bedroom wall every day, soon I should have to go looking for that path to her domain. I wouldn't be able to stop myself." The Beast stood still silent. Will the painting appear in her room?

What if she gets those roses growing...does she think she will break the curse that has captured the beast...and that once free, they will each go their separate ways? Is she attached to him now because she pities his sorry state?

Lots of questions...one thing I'm learning is that patience will be rewarded and that these questions will be answered in time...very much like what is going on in Brothers Karamazov! Both of these authors enjoy tossing out little non sequitors and then revisiting them chapters later. Patience!

Still can't figure out how the orchard and the garden are thriving and the glasshouse roses are dying!

So many questions you two have raised. Come to think of it, dining together is not something practiced everywhere. In the Western parts of the world, formal dining is a highly civilized affair, with many rules of etiquette. In India and other points East, dining is a private affair. It is considered impolite to watch one another stuffing their mouths, chewing, etc. In the story, dining together in the evening is a way for Beast to have Beauty's company; he rarely sees her during the day. Also, he is treating her as a fine lady would be treated, (ncluding the clothes and jewels). This sort of thing must be a part of his own background.

My feeling on the dream/reality thing is that in her dreams, Beauty actually visits these places, and sees all these things. Some of them have a material reality, and some a magical reality...if that makes sense. I think the old lady who left things at the door is real; that's why she left things outside the door and did not enter.

Joan, I had missed the full significance of what you pointed out re. Beauty's reaction to the Queen of the Heavenly Mountain painting. No, I don't think it would appear in her room. Beast may very well have found her reaction to the painting frightening. What if it DID draw her away from him? Uh-uh. ...Babi

Joan, is it all a dream? Good question. I think that Beauty somehow inhabits the magical world of the Beast and the real world of Rose Cottage at the same time, although she is only visible in the magic place.

When the old woman is milking she sings the same song that Beauty herself always sings, and she has the voice of a young girl. Is this the old woman who lived in Rose Cottage? Did Beauty learn the song from her mother, who in turn learned it from the old woman who raised her?

I think that the gardens and orchard thrive because they are influenced by the presence of the old woman who must be a greenwitch.

I wondered at the midnight hour application of the unicorn compost to the roses in the glasshouse. Maybe Beauty knew that the magic compost would only work at night, for the creatures that produced the material seem made of starlight and shadow.

The Numen gets quite upset when she says "What am I for if not to rescue the Beast's roses?" and something almost becomes visible for a moment.

She does weep now because going home is no longer a comfort to her, even though she still misses her family. Is she becoming more attached to the Beast?

More life in her room; this time it is Fourpaws who has esconsed four tiny newborn kittens on Beauty's bed.

Beauty does not want to go into the glasshouse to see the results of adding the unicorn compost until the sun is going down, so she keeps herself busy by moving furniture and going out to visit with the Beast in his orchard. He spends a lot of time in that orchard doesn't he? She asks him about the weathervane on top of the glasshouse, and he says she can go up and see. Also mentions that he 'dreads heights'.

It is such a long climb up that ladder for Beauty, and there is that wind which at first is playful, but which tries to push her off the ladder as she goes higher and closer to the weathervane. There is her looking around at the roof to see the paintings from so high up and not seeing them until she looks behind her. The Beast has painted only a small part of the roof when it comes down to it.

Does it seems odd to you that the glasshouse is taller that the palace?

Joan, BaBi, thanks you both for joining me here

I think that ladder to the roof of the glasshouse got longer in the same way the halls in the house sometimes change length and direction. I had a sense of something attacking Beauty on that ladder, as though being above the height of the walls had removed some protection around her. Her stepping beyond the gate into the woods, or to collect the manure, also had a sense of danger to it. The danger is not defined, but I thought it was there. Yet, there was no danger when Beauty left the grounds to visit her home. This malignant force apparently is quite willing to let her leave; it just doesn't want her to continue working with the roses and drawing living things back into the picture. ..Babi

BaBi, what did you think of that whole episode that happened when Beauty touched the weathervane -which looks like a woman with windblown hair holding a rose- and she ends up at her fathers poetry reading as a ghostly guest?

I love this scene when they come into the glasshouse to escape the storm after the Beast has helped Beauty down that long ladder:

For the glasshouse had come back to life indeed. There were roses everywhere she looked, red roses, white roses, and pink roses, and every shade among them, in great flat platters and round fat orbs of petals, roses shaped like goblets and roses shaped like cups, roses that displayed stamens as fine as a lady's eyelashes, roses that were full up to the brim with a muddle of petals, roses with tiny green button centers. There were red-tipped white roses, and white-tipped red ones, bright pink ones and soft pink ones that were darker at their hearts and some that were nearly white centered; white ones that were snowy all through, and white ones just touched with ivory and cream, or the sunset-cloud tints of pink and gold; and the reds were all the tones of the most mysterious and allusive of rose colours, from the warm rosy reds like ripening cherries to the darkest black-reds of velvet seen in shadow; and the purples were finer than any coronation mantle.

Is the Beast the young philosopher/sorcerer mentioned in the story Mrs. Oldhouse told?

Beauty has a lot of questions running through her mind about the Beast. But she decides that her loyalties lie with her sisters. So she begs the Beast to let her go home now that her job of getting the roses to grow are finished. He tells her that she had always been free to leave, and asks if she will return for a visit. Then he gives her one of the dark red roses and tells her that as long as it blooms he is alright but when the petals begin to fall out it means that he is dying. (That is just like in the original fairy tale, isn't it?)

More later...

The business of the weathervane with the woman and the rose threw me off. I really didn't quite know what to make of it. What intrigued me most about Beauty's presence at the poetry reading was:(1) it is the first time she "visited" some place other than the Rose Cottage during these out-of-body type experiences; and (2) isn't it the first time there is evidence of others being aware of her presence? And yes, I feel certain the young sorcerer in Mrs. Oldhouse's story is Beast.

The description of the blooms in the glasshouse is lovely. Wonderful what a bit of unicorn manure can do, isn't it?

I think we all know what is going to happen next, don't we? ...Babi

BaBi, yes we do know what will happen: Beauty is going home. The Beast tells her putting one of the petals of the rose he has given her in her mouth will take her home and when she wants to return to him all she has to do is put another petal in her mouth. Then he puts one of the petals between her lips and the glasshouse and the Beast are gone...

But we are left in suspense for a while as to where she has gone.

We learn that Beauty has been gone for seven months. So it seems that one month passes in the outside world for every day that passes in the magical palace. That explains why the rose the Beast has given her is ready to fall apart when Lionheart and Jeweltongue find her in Rose Cottage.

More tomorrow...my hand feels sore so I can't peck at the keys too much today.

Oh my...you both seem to know what's coming next and I haven't a clue!

Beauty has just swallowed the rose petal and is on her way home...and now we will have the three sisters living in the house...except now they all know of the curse...

Yes, it is clear that the Beast is sorcerer number 2 (reminds me of the tv game, "To Tell The Truth." Who is the real sorcerer # 3?) Didn't he die? Who is Jack Trueheart? He scares me. Yes, it seems that there is yet another triangle and that Jeweltongue and Whitehand are in trouble with Jack, but what is Jack's relationship to Sorcerer #3? I'm guessing that he is just part of the curse and not really the sorcerer. The sorcerer (#3) died, didn't he?

But the Beast...a very old beast?...IS the philosopher/ sorcerer #2, cursed for life for loving the greenwich, sorcerer #1. What happened to that greenwich? Is she the old lady who brings the basket daily to the beast's door? What is her relationship to the greenwich who lived in Rose Cottage and adopted Beauty's mother?

I keep thinking of the time frame here...Mrs. Oldhouse tells of the story that is generations old. So the Greenwich who lived in Rose Cottage couldn't have been the same as sorcerer #1...unless of course greenwitches/magicians don't age? Or die?

And the weathervane...hmmm...is sorcerer #1, the weathervane? A simulacrum?...loved the word. Did the author create it, or is there such a thing? (Another word the author likes is "scud" - I smile whenever she uses it.) The ghost of the similacrum is the weathervane? How about that?

The philosopher/sorcerer we are told was of the last of the wealthy families, so the palace must have been the family estate, the portraits on the wall, his family, the supercilious woman in the portrait that Beauty dislikes, who looks down at Beauty as if "offended"...may be his mother, who somehow holds Beauty responsible for her son's sorry state?

But who is Beauty really? The daughter of the greenwich's adopted daughter. But where did Beauty's mother come from? We don't know anything about her, or do we? Did I miss something?

What did you make of the conflicting stories told by Mrs. Oldhouse (why does she have two names...Mrs. Words-Without-End) and Jack Trueheart? Since I didn't like him (the clock ticked BE_WARE when he spoke), I tend to believe Mrs. Oldhouse...and that brings us back to the similacrum... But she wasn't really a woman, just appeared to be one, right? So she could not have been Beauty's mother?

I'm confussssssssssssssssed! And BaBi, you and Nellie both see what's coming and I have missed something major here!

The beast starts to appear more like a man than a beast now that Beauty knows of the curse put on Philosopher/Sorcerer#2, doesn't he? In fact he looks like the figure in the garden at Rose Cottage without his cape. He's acting more like a man too - putting Beauty's feelings before his own. You just know when he tells Beauty that he can't live without her that those petals are going to start dropping from the rose shortly after she gets back to Rose Cottage...

Oh dear, Joan, do calm yourself! Do you remember the original Beauty and the Beast story? That is why Nellie and I were saying we knew what was coming next. Also, Beauty's mother must be the orphan child that the greenwitch raised, the one who went away to the city. Can't help you on the simulacrums..you lost me there.

I don't think the greenwitch can be counted as a sorcerer, as we were told that greenwitches do not have the powers of sorcerers. Despite the great age she would have to be, I think this is the original greenwitch. If so, there should be an explanation somewhere of how she came to live this long.

Yes, I believe Mrs. Oldhouse's story is true. After all, the author had to explain this background to us sometime! And a clock ticking "Be-Ware" is a pretty broad hint, isn't it?

Nellie, I hope your hands are feeling better. ...Babi

Joan, I believe that Mrs. Oldhouse is the one telling the true story of the origin of the Beast, although I think it might have changed little by little as it was told and retold over the generations.

That Jack Trueword gives me the creeps -as they say-is he and his family related to sorcerer #1? The Truewords are certainly the richest and the most powerful families in Longchance. There are mysteries that have yet to be solved, and I think it is the Beast who will have to reveal the answers to us.

McKinley adds such homey touches to the story: the way that the little dog Tea Cosy acts when she is let in to greet the newly returned Beauty is exactly the way my little poodle acts when I have been away and come home.

At first Beauty does not seem to remember the Beast nor that he told her when all the petals were falling from his rose that he would be dying. Then when Ironheart and Jeweltongue ask her about the Beast, she remembers him asking her to marry him and wonders why he would even consider it:

"She was beautiful, but that would fade, unlike Jeweltongue's skill with her needle and Lionheart's horse sense. She had always been the least of the sisters, called Beauty because she had no other, better characteristic to name her as herself. She could make roses bloom-but that was the unicorns and the old woman. There was a little gap in the magic, that was all, and she had mended it, merely by being there, as if she were a bit of string."

It makes me feel sad that this sweet lovely young woman thinks so little of herself. What about you?

BaBi, my hand is quite a bit better. I spent too much time pinching off dead flowers yesterday and wore it out.

Here is what I found on simulacrum in the online Merriam-Webster dictionairy:

One entry found for simulacrum.

Main Entry: sim·u·la·crum
Pronunciation: "sim-y&-'la-kr&m, -'lA-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural sim·u·la·cra /-kr&/; also -crums
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, from simulare
Date: 15th century
1 : IMAGE, REPRESENTATION
2 : an insubstantial form or semblance of something : TRACE

Jack "Trueheart" or "Trueword". Joan is calling him Trueheart and Nellie is saying "Trueword". And I have finished the book and turned it back in at the library, and find myself unsure. In any case, whichever it is, Jack's name does not seem to fit him, as everyone else's does. Probably the rest of his family fits the name, and he is the proverbial exception.

In a way I can understand what Beauty is saying. One's appearance is an accident of nature (generally speaking, and ignoring plastic surgery and cosmetics). It is not something for which one can take credit, as having accomplished on their own merit. She simply has not recognized the many very fine qualities she does have. Her gentleness, patience, courage, persistence, kindness...

I was really worried when the last petal fell from that rose. I had completely forgotten about the bush at the Rose Cottage that carried that same rose. It got her back to the palace grounds, but not all the way to Beast. Shucks, I thought once she came back and acknowledged she loved him, that the story would be complete. But they STILL have problems to meet. Hey, no fair! ...Babi

BaBi, she stays home for such a short time, doesn't she? No more than a few hours it seems. She talks to her sisters about the Beast and comes to realize that she does love him and wants to marry him. Just at that moment the last petal falls from the rose.

She remembers that she had planted stem cuttings from the rose that her father brought and one of the little plants bears a single blossom just open enough that she can pull off a petal to put in her mouth. Once she does so she finds herself in that dream she has had all her life...running down that dark corridor.

There are two things that are different so far from the fairy tale: one;the length of time she is home, and two; that she doesn't end up by the Beast's side -well three at least since getting roses to grow was not part of the original either as I recall.

Yes, there are things yet to be revealed and decisions that must be made.

I find the wealth of characters very different from the original, tho' I probably do not remember all the details of the original. The sisters and father are so likable, as are the characters in the village. The 'stories' of the rest of the family are added. I really don't remember anything in the original about Beauty's mother, or about the character McKinley calls the greenwitch. And the ending of the story is certainly different. None of that kiss the Beast and the man reappears and they live happily ever after. ...Babi

BaBi, I found the whole ending -or maybe the piece before the ending of the story to be very dreamlike in nature. There is the hum that tries to keep Beauty from going the way that she wants. A corridor becomes a dark dirt filled tunnel which leads to her own rooms in the palace. Then it is like something wants to keep her away from the Beast -corridors lead to more corridors and stairs and anterooms. Doors stand open that were never open before.

Finally she ends up in a large room with a stain on the rug and the two portraits. One of the haughty young man who looks like he would never help anyone, and the other of the haughty woman with a not nice smile on her face. Are they the ones who turned the Beast into what he is? Or is the haughty young man the Beast? I don't think so. For some reason the haughty young man in the portrait reminds me of Jack Trueword; as if the two are related in some way.

Beauty finally opens one of the windows and jumps out. She is close to finding her Beast...

More tomorrow.

I will say this: I like the ending in this version much more than I like the ending in the fairy tale itself.

Good morning! I haven't read the ending yet, Nellie... as I recall the fairy tale had a happy ending though. I can't help but think about Robin McKinley's fascination with this story and wonder if she has a real-life story to tell... there are so many allusions to first impressions and falling in love only when getting past the surface.

I found myself laughing at so many things ...like Lionheart mentioning during the sisterly chat in Rose Cottage ...that "first impressions are so important." A "large hairy Beast" doesn't exactly make a good impression! Do you agree with Lionheart? How important are first impressions? Don't you often laugh about first impressions after you've come to know a person?

BaBi, as I say, I haven't read the final chapter yet, so am not sure if Jack Trueword is aptly named. He certainly isn't Trueheart...I misspoke there...but he is Trueword, and all the other characters in the story are exactly what their name implies. Soooooooo I'm thinking there must be some element of truth in what he has said, or why would he be so named?

Speaking of names, there were several references made to "Mr. Poet's" name... someone remarks that Mr. Poet is more suitable for Father than his real name. I will be quite disappointed if we don't learn that name by the end of the story.

BaBi, I felt badly for Beauty too...so many lovely girls are unhappy because they feel their beauty is their only attribute. And this poor girl is actually named for her beauty, which makes her doubley certain that this is her only trait worth mentioning. Everyone else around her understands it is her beautiful nature that has provided a whole new life in Rose Cottage (and in the Beast's palace)...but Beauty does not.

I smiled when she asks her sisters "why would someone so great and grand want to marry me?" She's referring to the large, hairy beast! Her sisters immediatley realize that this means that Beauty is in love.

What does the fallen statue and the last rose petal signify? The Beast has stated that when the last petal has fallen, he will die! Is it too late for him? Did the Beast die...and perhaps the spell will be broken? If she returns to him, as she is preparing to do now, will she find that the spell is broken and though the beast is dead, the ensorceled philosopher will be waiting for her?"Lord Goodman died for me today, I'll die for him tomorrow." What does this mean in relation to the story? Why is it repeated as Beauty prepares to return?

Two questions persist..
Who was Beauty's mother, the young girl adopted by the greenwich of Rose Cottage? Where did she come from before she arrived at the cottage?

Who is the ghost of the simulacrum? Is the simulacrum made of rose petals Beauty's mother perhaps? And Beauty then the "ghost of the simulacrum?" in some way?

I find myself hoping that these questions will be addressed in the final chapters. I've tried not to read the last of your posts too closely, Nellie, as I am almost, but not quite caught up and don't want to get to parts not yet read...after our gal swallows those little rose petals. Clever girl to remember the little petals of the cuttings...I think this is a better idea than swallowing the petals of the Beast's rose...these may represent new life, a second chance...rather than returning to the same old, same old routine back at the Palace!

Later!

Joan, first impressions are important because an adverse first impression can mean that one might never get to know what might be a nice person. Beauty's first impression of the Beast was rather negative, but she stayed around long enough -not knowing that she could have left at any time-to discover the good, kind person hidden beneath the appearance of a Beast.

Perhaps McKinley is telling us that it is important to take the time to look beneath the surface?

I like your thought about the fresh rose petals meaning a fresh start when Beauty returns to the palace rather than going back to the old routine.

I think the questions about Beauty's mother will be answered as will a lot of other ones as well. I won't say more for the moment...

hahahaha...Nellie, Beauty didn't have much of a choice but to stick around and get to know the Beast to get beyond her first impression of him, did she? Well, I take that back. I suppose another girl in such a situation would have stayed in her lovely room sulking, asking for all her meals served there too. But Beauty didn't do that. She found the Beast each evening and showed genuine concern for him.

I had to smile at the ending...nothing like the fairy tale where the Beast turned into the handsome prince... Beauty plans to "plait his hair" for special occasions! Beast will build them a big enough bed. I guess once you displease the Guardians of the secrets of the universe and they curse you, you remain cursed! Cute ending.

I also read of Robin McKinley's reasons for writing Rose Beauty in the appendage at the end of the book. Interesting that she found herself gardening in London with her new husband after a lifetime in Maine. Her love for the roses she was able to grow in London found its way into this story. She sure knew what it took to grow them. And her homesickness after leaving Maine ...she used that in this story too.

I liked the way she describes the way this "short story" just flowed through her and sort of wrote itself.

There are still some unanswered questions in my mind. Maybe you can fill me in. The greenwitch is the one who left the Cottage to Beauty. Beauty's mother is the girl the greenwitch adopted. But it was never clear who Beauty's mother was, or is it? Her father...the ambitious evil sorcerer...she looks just like him. Which is probably the reason the greenwich adopted her? She was in love with this sorcerer, but she was plain. She created the simulacrum with a human heart to love him, but the simulacrum could not bear children. What happened then? The simulacrum is ensorceled up in the weathervane? Who did the sorcerer end up with then? Who is Beauty's grandmother?

Remember the unhappy looking ghost woman Beauty encountered in the last scene at the palace? Was this her grandmother's ghost?

Everything moved so fast at the end, didn't it? I think I have to read the last chapter one more time.

Joan, a lot does happen in that last chapter. I had forgotten that it was the Guardians of the secrets of the universe that turned the Beast into a beast. Judging from this description of the two large beasts they see standing in front of the dark fortress wall...

And standing near the rear of the glasshouse were two other Beasts, looking much like her own Beast, huge and shaggy and kind, but as much bigger than her Beast as her Beast was bigger than she. Nor were they terrifying to look upon, but were shaped into a wholeness, a unity, a clarity, and a tranquility that no mortal creature may possess, and Beauty felt a strange, shivery joy at being so fortunate as to see them with her own eyes. Behind them, instead of the fourth wall of the glasshouse, there seemed to stand the facade of some immense dark fortress.

...the Guardians, for I'm sure that is what the two Beasts are, turned the young sorcerer/philosopher into a replica of themselves.

I think Beauty is given the choice of turning the Beast back into the handsome man that he was and she would then live a life of riches and power and people all over would fear her and her husband; or she can return to Longchance with the Beast as he is and live a simple life. It is such an easy choice for someone as kind as Beauty, isn't it?

Beauty's mother...still a lot of unexplained mystery there. She seems to be related to the sorcerer Stix whom the greenwitch/old woman loved and made the simulacrum with her heart in it for. The young girl seems very interested in something unmentioned -though I would guess it is the Beast-and when the greenwitch won't tell her, she runs away to the city and marries Beauty's father.

Who is Beauty's grandmother? That is a good question and one that seems to go unanswered. I keep thinking that she might be the haughty woman in the portrait in the palace.

More coming up later. I'm going to read the last chapter again too, to get all the 'facts'.

I'm glad you are explaining all this, Nellie, as I found some of it downright confusing. The book never does really say where the young girl came from that the greenwitch adopted. I guess we are doing well to figure out she was the Mother of Beauty and her sisters, never mind identifying the grandmother!

I was very satisfied with Beauty's decision not to choose riches and power. She had learned quite well that those things do not bring happiness. As I understood it, though, the guardians had kept the young sorcerer from being completely destroyed by stepping in and giving him this form and a means of survival. It was not the curse that kept him from receiving his own form back when the enchantment was broken. That was Beauty's choice, for both of them. I feel sure Beast approved of her decision. ...Babi

BaBi, I was satisfied with Beauty's choice to remain simple and to live in Rose Cottage with her Beast. She would miss her Beast if he were replaced by a handsome young man.

I don't know if there was ever an enchantment on the Beast. The young sorcerer/philosopher is trying to learn or find the first and last secrets of the universe which are kept hidden in a dark fortress watched over by the two Guardians. When he approaches the fortress, he wakes the Guardians. They are puzzled by him because he is not like others who have tried to get at the secrets and whom they have literally eaten.

The Guardians are unable to destroy the young philosopher/sorcerer and to keep him from going further they reach out to stop him, and their touch accidentally turns him into a Beast. And the Beast himself uses a powerful spell to move his castle and himself out of the world into exile so that no one can see what he has become.

But he has been unable to close himself off from the world completely and others, including the greenwitch who is his friend, and sorcerers who believe he has gained great powers when he became a Beast, come through the cracks to see him.

One of those who comes to visit is Stix and he does not ask for the secrets he things the Beast knows, but stays and watches and waits, thinking that the Beast will reveal his knowledge eventually. For reasons the greenwitch says that have nothing to do with the simulacrum made from rose petals, Stix becomes angry with the Beast and sets out to destroy him with magic. But the Beast manages to defend himself and Longchance.

I think the wolves and the birds of prey and all those magical creatures that are trying to keep Beauty and the Beast from leaving the palace are manifestations of the Beast's desire/spell to stay hidden from the world. He is not yet aware at that point that Beauty's love has changed him into a Beast who is no longer frightening to look upon. But he realizes it the moment she goes out to face the sorcerous army and orders it to disperse. At that moment she breaks the spell that he had put on himself and his palace.

I guess we will have to make up our own story about Beauty's mother and grandmother.

I guess that about sums it up. I'll be watching for another book discussion to sit in on down the line. It's been fun, Nellie. Thanks for bringing this one in. ...Babi

Thanks for being here, BaBi!

It was an enjoyable experience sharing this book with you and Joan and all the invisible lookers on.

Bye Bye BaaaaaaaaaaBI! I enjoyed getting to know you! And Nellie, thanks for bringing this book for our attention. It's fun getting to read something I ordinarily would not have picked up. I don't think we've heard the last of Robin McKinley!

See you both later!

Love,
Joan

I enjoyed having you here Joan and am glad you liked the book. Maybe one day we can discuss another book by McKinley -she has a good one in Deer Skin which is a retelling of the Cinderella fairy tale in a way.