Seven Sisters ~ Margaret Drabble ~ 1/03 ~ Fiction Export

A bright good morning to you and welcome to our first day of discussing The Seven Sisters!

There are hundreds of aspects of the book we could begin with, and I think I’d like to start with the main character, so far unnamed, and the way the author presents her, because I admit to being somewhat confused about what I'm reading, and am especially eager this morning to hear your own insights.

To begin then, in the heading a couple of random thoughts intended to spark your own, feel free to bring up anything about the character this morning you'd like, we have 7 (ahaahah) days to discuss the first 86 pages of this book, and I think we could take 86 days: there's a lot here.

In the opening pages the narrator, speaking in the voice of the first person, hammers the reader with an overwhelming feeling of.....inferiority? Sadness? Anger?

Slight glitch this morning as the questions will not show in the heading, have alerted Pat W, here they are below For Your Consideration?

1. If you had to characterize in one word one feeling you get from the presentation of the character in the opening pages, what would it be?

2. In the first 18 pages the character explains to the reader in the voice of the first person, such thoughts as:

Nothing much happens to me now, nor ever will again.
I grow ever more cowardly with age.
I am quite interested in the bleating, whining, resentful, martyred tone I seem to have adopted. I don’t remember choosing it, and I don’t much like it.
I am quite good, for better or worse, at avoiding people.
…that’s because I was lacking in self-esteem
I don’t know what colours to wear.

Do you tend to agree with the character's own assessment of herself or do you see something else?

3. In addition to the narrator’s voice, and the narrator's overvoice, there is a ….gloss? A sort of Greek Chorus? At the beginning of sections, such as She tells the sad
story of her
marriage.

What is this? What function does it serve? At present it merely reflects what she’s saying, will it change? Whose voice is this? Why do you think it’s here?

I look forward to hearing what you all think,

ginny

GINNY - - humour me. As we probably have two editions of the book could you please let me know if the first line of p18 reads: ". . .in school affairs. It was not an arduous life."

I can't refer to sections of the book (for examples) if our copies are several pages adrift.

Viogert,

Yes, (did you see my remarks on pagination in my last post of the prior Seven Sisters Pre discussion)? On the new American Harcourt Brace hardback edition, yes, page 18 begins just that way, what page is that for you and are you using paperback or hardback?

Thank you, Pat, for putting the For Your Consideration Questions in the heading!

ginny

Pat, thanks so much for putting up the Candida references. They were a big help, but I'm still wondering why her parents chose that name.

I've been putting my thoughts in Notepad first, and clicking refresh, hoping someone else will be first with an opinion, but -- here goes:

Question 3: Working backwords, the little sidebars -- I don't know what they are. I think we will find out later, as they may tie in with later narrators -- that's just a guess. What do you mean, Ginny, by "narrator's overvoice?

Question 2: Her self-esteem is -5, but she is also rather bitchy. Talk about putting down others. She can't say anything nice about her "friends." Of course, that is no doubt related to her image of herself. Only horrible people would want to be friends with her because she is so unworthy and so unloveable -- or so she thinks.

She says she's cowardly, but yet she had the courage to leave all that was familiar and move to a strange, crude environment.

Question 1: When I first started reading I thought,I can identify with her, but now, NO WAY. This beginning is so sad, so defeatist.

My comments seem to mirror pedln's.

1- Sad, almost pathetic (she escapes the "totally pathetic" because she's no longer in Suffolk.)

2- Yes, she's wallowing in self-pity

3- No idea yet--perhaps her own "summation/outline" of her thoughts at that point/chapter/installment

I have to do this one at a time!! Such good questions!

My one word is

Pathetic: affecting or exciting emotions, esp. the tender emotions, as pity or sorrow

I loved Sue Grafton’s reported attitude about her divorce: “Success is the best revenge”, and from that came her best selling alphabet mystery series… And I wanted to call that little London flat and tell her that!!

Lou

We were posting at the same time, Jane! OK, maybe not "totally" but still pathetic!

This roller coaster doesn't scare me, so I'll jump in.

Two words, not one, came to me when I first read the early pages of this book. One is "Familiar" and the other is "Dull". I was ready to close the book and put it down.

What caught my interest was the reaction of this narrator to the two women in the Health Club who were talking about the lump in the back of one of them. It reminded me of the time I was in a Health Club in California as the guest of a friend. Women were standing around buck-naked and barefoot having serious conversations about serious matters while I was trying to keep covered the very serious flaws of my body -- like an extreme spinal curvature, among other things. I remember being impressed with the fact that there were such differences in body forms in these adults; also noted that there was only one woman among the many I saw who had what is considered a beautiful shape. The confidence of the people around me was impressive. This seems like a similar experience to what is described here in the book, and the incident seems important.

I was very surprised when the narrator accused herself of writing in a "bleating, whining, resentful, martyred tone". That didn't come across to me at all in the first few pages. It seemed to me that she was exaggerating negatives in a way that only a person as self-centered as she apparently is could; those faults that only she could see. This narrator still thinks about boarding school?

The subject of her failed marriage comes up, and I thought: Aha, the usual, the same old thing, the reason for her trying to prove herself and her intelligence by digging into Virgil.

I found the Greek chorus effect pretentious and annoying, except that it does show me a stronger facet of this person and tells me as a reader something about what she really thinks.

Mal

I must add here that I see good reason for varying degrees of self pity when a woman is betrayed and her world and everything she's known fall apart as completely as Candida's did.

Mal

Mal, I looked on the Greek Chorus as an outline of sorts - rather than as annoying contrivance. Did "she" write these third-person observations into her diary? She comments about her schoolgirl diary - and how difficult it was to put down the truth. Is this use of the third person an effort to organize her thoughts and stick to the subject and the facts? I DO get the feeling that she is attempting to be honest in this diary, although is having difficulty understanding the truth of what has led to her reduced cirmcumstances. She seems to be hoping that if she writes the events, the truth will emerge from the pages. (I think I'd be "bitchy" too at this point.)

I'm going to politely disagree with your "pathetic" description ...for now anyway. Who knows, maybe I'll agree with you as we get beyond page 86. I am forcing myself to refrain from reading beyond, because it is so easy to spill something I might read in later pages.

Hmmm...one word. I too think she's being quite daring, Pedln. I don't know if I would set up housekeeping in this neighborhood after years of living in a sheltered environment. She seems almost...liberated. Which word? Daring, confused, liberated? I can't decide.

I AM intrigued about these conflicting observations:
"" Nothing much happens to me now, nor ever will again." AND then: "I will have faith that something or someone is waiting for me on the far shore." Do these statments conflict? Maybe not...

Joan, I see where you are coming from with the liberated idea, and I have to say, as I pondered the second question, I found the following, which includes the lines you quoted...

After she says “Nothing much happens to me now….”, she says “I cannot help but feel that there is something important about this nothingness.” Then, “This nothingness is significant.” Followed by “I will have faith that something or someone is waiting for me on the far shore.”

Is this our feathered friend here? Could she be looking for Hope? Am I already revising my first thoughts?

Lou

I don't think she's pathetic, either. Confused? Well, of course; who wouldn't be? But underneath it all, she appears to be strong. "I felt more powerful than I did when I was married to that good man Andrew." ( Page 62, Harcourt edition ). Her choice of Ladbroke Grove as a place to live and the quarters she chose might make a lie of the sense of power she feels, though. Or does it? An interesting choice, isn't it?

Mal

I could identify with Candida. I think her marriage break up resulted in a period of grieving and many of her thoughts on herself I could identify with. I believe I went through a period of indulgence where I felt self pity and a host of other emotions. Although I did not move house I took up a variety of hobbies - joined the gym and generally felt very vulnerable and did lose some of my self esteem. I believe that the loss of self esteem was due in part to beginning the menopause combined with my bereavement. Many women have described this loss of self esteem during the time their body is going through change. I think one could equate it to adolescence. Children also suffer self esteem problems as their hormones begin to change. Its a fascinating subject.

I think with the move into a neighbourhood such as the author describes there was too, an element of defiance. The lifestyle there was the total opposite to the genteel runnings of a private school in country surroundings. It was off with the old and in with the new! Perhaps she wanted to shock her family and old friends subconsciously.

Carolyn

One word? There are so many. First, I'd say "shocked" and from that overwhelming shakeup to her life comes rage and self-pity. This would be a normal reaction and her Diary is a way to work through that shock and all the negative, destructive emotions.

She says she's a coward and it's true that she couldn't face people, the ones who knew her and her situation and so she had to uproot herself?

She's sneaky too as she first presents herself as a victim but then starts snipping at Andrew and just about everyone it seems:

Friend Janet: "Janet has been cloyingly sympathetic about my divorce, which all too clearly delighted her...." (p 24)

Ex-husband Andrew: "The three girls sided with Andrew....Andrew alienated my three daughters. He seduced them and stole their hearts away." (p20)

Daughter Isobel: "Like her father, she glances at herself in every mirror." (p47)

The narrator is anonymous at this time and she's singular, single, alone and writing in a diary to herself. Most definitely writing to herself, spewing her anger onto the page (because she can't do that face to face?)

I didn't like the narrator at this point. She whined whined whined while she slashes from a safe distance (the diary) at the people who'd occupied her life until then. Her questions are meant to be sarcastic.

She says she's passive and her actions show her to be passive-aggressive.

The side-bars or little side comments in italics I equate with the printed words of a silent movie melodrama. It is like a Greek Chorus, Ginny, I like that. But the Greek Chorus is overblown and describes what is actually mundane. She remembers the unpacking of her household gods; She takes her first walk around her new estate; She first hears them speaking in unknown tongues. Perhaps the use of side-bars is the narrator's way of gaining perspective and balance? She's in shock, she's angry, she's miserable but besides her snipes at others, she makes fun of herself with the side-bars? It's her way of saying, I know I'm being a drama-queen and my problems are rather ordinary?

Marvelle

Ginny -- thanks about the pagination. What a relief.

1. she is obviously detached. The headings are like the Bible headings - keeping tags on what she's written about - nothing else;

2. CW has spent two years in this little flat. She has been surviving in solitude with neither approval nor obloquy. An annual birthday card from an old friend & evening classes with women of like mind were high-watermarks. She had begun to get used to nothing happening. The diary is the start of restlessness - an individual's awareness that change is happening. So she takes stock.

Andrew appears to have taken up all the available oxygen in the marriage. So she was buried in respectability & Georgian good taste in rural Suffolk which is beautful & backward. CW grasped the opportunity to escape - 'betrayal' wasn't an issue - they no longer shared a bed. By then she held Andrew in deep contempt.

CW has spent well over half her life with Andrew, been cramped by his overbearing sophistry & been made aware of her diminishing value - in their family life & the school life. Her daughters no doubt despised her as a non-starter in their social aspirations - & as she became invisible in her husband's eyes, she disappeared in theirs.

So we find, on the first page, a women nearly 60 who is suddenly aware of change approaching but she doesn't know what could happen to a woman of 60. It's not unusual - you're stuck in a groove for years, but only when events push you forward, are you aware of being stuck. CW's form of cowardice is in her non-confrontational style in the face of undeserved social criticism. In her situation, until she gets her bearings - losing countenance with people from her past will be a threat. She will avoid people until she can give a good account of herself. Her sprinking of 'en effet' to start with, looks pretentious - but she loses it pretty quickly when her confidence returns though.

Two years on her own & she starts to write a journal of how far she has come. Nothing has happened. That she lacked self-esteem is obvious, but if a wife is treated like a cipher, she will feel like one. Her self assessment is quite good - she thinks she sounds resentful & martyred in her diary - it's only because she is both - in her situation anybody would be. If she did anything that brought this about, I would guess it was due to her neat self-contained character. It is difficult to manipulate people of quiet independence, & they are disliked for it. But never once does she mention being lonely does she?

I would suggest the 'Greek Chorus' is no more than a detached heading to help her locate happenings & what she reported & when.

Betrayal may not be an issue when a husband and wife don't share the same bed, but it certainly can be a catalyst, a final straw, and one that can hurt.

It took me three years and a small windfall when I was a good deal younger than Candida to move far away among strangers and immediately to write an autobiographical novel, which was nothing more than a summing up with no prediction for the future. Familiar? Yes.

I don't like headings on book chapters, either.

Mal

Kiwi Lady -- a fafferoo bird told me it was your birthday yesterday Carolyn!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY NEW YEAR'S DAY.

(Capricorns have to take good care of their KNEES!)

I can see how someone writing in their diary might use sidebars to keep track of what happened but if that were its sole or primary purpose it wouldn't need to be set in the Mock Heroic Epic style.

This is a definite style that the narrator uses. I found it off-putting when I first read it because the over-the-top language didn't suit the narrator's humdrum existence. But it does suggest Classical Literatures and fits in well with Virgil.

The narrator uses the sidebars as a way to keep a perspective on her life and her emotions. The sidebars are a self-mockery of her drama-queen statements and indicates she'll pull through this bad time in her life. Right now however her emotions are very messy. I imagine we've all been there in one way or another.

The sarcastic questions of the narrator matches that of the Tennyson poem Locksley Hall of a person in similar circumstances -- in shock over the rejection, hurt, angry and comparing the replacement lover to a dog.

Marvelle

Just as I didn't think Miss Kenton in The Remains of the Day was a drama queen, I don't think this narrator is, either. There are many aspects to Candida's character and personality. What we're seeing early on, I believe, is what's rubbed off from being married to an overblown ego and iffy intellectual who is Headmaster of Holling House School and Executive Director of the Trust.
Biggie Deal. (En effet.)

This is the same woman whose only real friend in London is in the most unlikely form of Anais, an unusual free spirit who thinks Candida is "amusing". I think the narrator's description of other women she's known is probably more accurate than derisive, frankly.

Where is the Seven Sisters section in London Candida looked at before she chose Ladbroke Grove? That's what I have to find out.

Mal

Below is a link which shows part of Seven Sisters Road on the right. It's all Greek to me, since I do not know London. Wonder where it is in relation to Ladbroke Grove?

Map showing 7 Sisters Road

I prefer to state my opinion of a character that would occur to me as we discuss that particular section. I for one don't want to allow in my comments any advance knowledge of the novel in case some participants haven't finished the entire book. I also don't see characters as having one aspect to themselves (all good or all bad) or scenes having only one meaning. That wouldn't be true to life. To each her own.

For now I consider the narrator to be a drama queen but one with insight and humor as shown in the Mock Heroic Epic sidebars. She is an emotional wreck because she and her husband couldn't make a go of it -- the marriage was a mutual failure -- and what she divulges in her private diary is not flattering to anyone.

The diary is a safe outlet for her shock and rage and hurt and one which doesn't harm others. There are indications that she's healing. She isn't stuck in the drama-queen mode as she realizes the assumed and false role of victim is unattractive (she does beat herself up over this role).

IMO her shock is as natural as her rage. It would take a couple years to recover from such an upset to a person's world.

Marvelle

In thinking about how the narrator is in shock and anger and how I said that there were indications that she was attempting to find her emotional balance after all the upheaval in her life, I thought of one particular section in this section of the book.

On page 75 there is a fraction of a fable by La Fontaine that the narrator quotes when remarking on the suicide drowning of Jane Richards in the Lady Pond. This is under the sidebar "She remembers her hysteria and fretfulness and she regrets them."

A fable, according the Literary Terms link is "a brief tale designed to illustrate a moral leson. Often the characters are animals..." The reader/listener of a fable receives advise without noting the presence of the adviser due to the distraction of an interesting narrative, the use of humor and fictitious animal characters who have human speech and the fable is able to instruct with the aim to improve human conduct.

Le Lievre et les Grenouilles (French)

The Hare and the Frogs (English)

In this fable the timid Hare complains about its fate of always living in fear -- sleeping for instance with eyes open -- and in despair Hare determines to drown itself in the nearby Frog Pond. Hare runs to the Pond and its presence so scares the Frogs that they all leap into the Pond instead of Hare. Hare says "Why I frighten people too" and from this Hare takes courage. Moral: There is always someone worse off than you so take courage.

This is something the narrator remembers which indicates to me she is recovering her balance. When I find myself dwelling over my issues -- health, money, widowhood -- I then try to keep things in perspective. One reason I read Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning is because it reminds me that there was and are people in much worse situations. In Frankl's case he was a WWII concentration camp prisoner and he survived with dignity without whining. And I say to myself 'take courage.'

I think that's why the narrator remembered the fable in connection with the suicide of Jane Richards who'd actually recited the poem in school.She remembers her hysteria and fretfulness and she regrets them.

The narrator writes "My man in Wormword Scrubs [the imprisoned murderer] drowned his victim.... I know the very place. Anthea's daughter [Jane Richards] drowned herself. I know the very place. I wade in, but only up to my knees." (p74) The narrator is saying she will feel destructive rage and melancholy only so far (up to her knees) but will not succumb to either murder or suicide. "Poor hare." (p75) This statement is for Jane Richard? Who didn't see there were Frogs in the world and couldn't take courage? Perhaps it is for the narrator too and all the timid hares of the world.

Marvelle

La Fontaine took this story from Aesop, whom we were discussing in the Story of Civilization discussion as recently as yesterday.

The Hare and the Frogs by Aesop

Malryn Seven Sisters Road is a long road in London running north east. It's approx. 15kms from Ladbroke Grove in west London.

Marvelle9 - a 'drama queen' demands the attention of an audience - quite the opposite in the case of Candida Wilton who seeks anonymity.

Remember the story of Little Red Riding Hood? Literary criticism is a little bit like the story. A simple story, in which a little girl walks thru the woods and visits her grandmother, right? What big teeth you have, Granny. What big eyes you have, Granny. Even a child notices when something is different, and something is wrong: it's just an instinctive reaction.

When we read a book we each are stopped in our own personal journey thru the woods by different things.

All readers react differently when stopped, whether or not they realize it. Some become annoyed because the “big teeth” interfere with their own notion of what the character is saying or doing. Maybe the character THEY imagined from THEIR background would not notice the big teeth or would not have encountered the big teeth at all?

Some brush over the “big teeth” to get to the end.

Some extrapolate on those big teeth other big teeth they have encountered, in life, and in literature.

Some, perhaps those well versed in literary criticism, sit up and take notice, oh, “big teeth,” is it, hmmmm, now I wonder what that might signify? DOES it mean anything at all? Let’s watch it for a bit.

In our book discussions here we seek to combine all the experiences. Some people will see a LOT in those teeth, some people will see nothing, our job here, however, is to LOOK at those teeth, when and/or IF somebody points them out, together, and try to see IF in fact they have any significance to the story and through our collective conversations we will arrive, there’s no other possibility, at a more informed reading than if we read it alone.

That’s what we’re about here.

I personally this morning am seeing what I think MAY BE some very big teeth (or may not at all) ...as Robert Frost said, "the strong are saying nothing till they see." haahahaha I guess I'm pretty weak, then, because I'm about to say a LOT hahaahhaa

And you all have the makings of very good dentists as your posts convey, let’s not pass them by, back in a mo with some reactions to your posts….

(I’ve asked Pat Westerdale to put your ‘one words” up in the heading, I find them fascinating!)

ginny

What fabulous points you've each made!

I believe I’ll try something new today, make a lot of relatively smaller posts to try to address what you’ve all said, some of you have really made some stunning thoughts, and in that way maybe make it easier to read, let me know if it works.

I believe my first impression of this yet unnamed character is “anger.”

I’ve never seen such anger. I’ve never seen anybody talk about their own children the way she does hers. Ok so they took Daddy’s side, golly moses I hope I never come across somebody as bitter and angry as this, it’s overwhelming. Anger. As Virgil said in Book I of the Aeneid, “Can anger/Black as this prey on the minds of heaven?”

ANGER searing boiling hateful snide bitter anger, at Andrew the Good, (who sinned) at her friends, at herself, at the world which she says she’s proud of keeping at arm’s length, at her children, golly moses it almost blew me out of the water.

Let me say here that I have not read past page 86, a very unusual occurrence for me. In Remains the charge was we were basing some of our thoughts on what was to come: no fear here, I have no idea. When the character’s name is introduced, I want to see in what context. I can't relate to the character, have not been in her shoes, but I can "feel her pain," as You know Who used to say, anyway, I undrestand feeling down and self pity, and I think it's OK to indulge in it till you get back up on your feet, nurse the wound, etc. But I have not walked in her shoes, so my own perspective is Detached Observer.

Please read carefully the following posts, our group here has raised points VERY important, I think?

Super start! I am in “AWR” of you all as the Sopranos say.

ginny

Pedln, what marvelous insights!

By "overvoice" which is my own term, I meant I am overwhelmed by the Babel of voices here, we have the Narrator speaking in a First Person voice ("I"), a second voice critically assessing the first in the First Voice ("I am amazed at my whining tone...") that's what I called the "overvoice, " and a third voice speaking in the Third Person (She wonders if true change can still happen at her age).

The three voices seem to contradict themselves and the action, my primary reaction to this book is CONFUSION.

You pointed out something very important, in "she can't say anything nice about her friends..." No nor her children nor, as you note, herself because of her self image, I guess her glasses are not rose colored.

Malryn asked why she remembers Boarding School? Maybe because that's one of the few birthday remembrances she gets, from a boarding school friend and that causes her to remember better times or perhaps more loving times, or so she thought, and one of the few times she even had a friend, that says something I think?

Pedln mentions the first of many times you notice that the narrator seems to contradict her own statements. I think these are important, could you all continue to list them? Let's get up a list and see how many they are and what they pertain to, there may, indeed, be a clue there to something more?

ginny

Jane, after seeing the definition of “pathetic” that Lou2 put in, was that how you see this character or were you thinking of something different?

So you think she escaped total patheticness by her move, so you see the move as positive then?? Super point!

That might make a super question for the group:

Do you see her move to London as positive or defeated behavior?

Lou2, thanks for that definition, you wanted to tell this character that Grafton found success after divorce, that there IS hope, do you see anything hopeful so far in the narrator?? ??

Another good focus for the group:

What hopeful signs if any do you see in the Narrator in the first 86 pages?

Malryn,

You thought that the narrator exaggerated negatives and you personally did not see the “bleating, whining, resentful and martyred tone?”

Excellent point, leading to another question for us all:

What would you say is the tone of this book so far?

ginny

Yes, "anger", yes, yes yes! Our beleaguered victim is consumed with anger...and I sense it is directed towards herself. How could she have allowed herself to be so used and abused? She seems to be examining with suspicion all those closest to her. If her husband treated her this way, she must have "allowed him" to do so. Her daughters, her closest friends. She's going to have a lot of work to do to ever trust again, isn't she? The motives of all those she comes in contact with will now be viewed through hypercritical lens!

I'm loving this discussion! I feel I know this woman!

Joan P, In Edit, posting together, hahahaha still trying to respond to yesterday's posts: RIGHT on the money that entire post yesterday is full of gems!

You mention the diary concept.

Or journal.

There are no dates in this “diary,” no expressions of time, does that make it not a diary or is there a difference in diary and journal?

The diary as a narrative device was mentioned by Adam Parkes in his book about Remains of the Day, here’s an excerpt:

Trevor Field, [in] Form, and Function in the Diary Novel claim[s] that

The diary novel draws its energy from a crucial tension between fact and fiction—a tension of which the diarist is often aware, and which is heightened in a diary novel because is it a “forum of fiction which imitates a factual form imbued with fictional tendencies.”

In other words the diary is a recognized literary form for the purpose of saying something. I hope I can figure out what’s really being said here!

I loved your question and will put it up immediately! On the gloss or “Greek Chorus” thing:

Did “she” write these third person observations into her diary? If not who is the author of those statements?

And this one…

Is this use of the third person an effort to organize her thoughts and stick to the subject and the facts?

In view of what Dr. Parkes just said that’s a very interesting question!

I think we need to watch those little glosses and see when and IF they change from description of…what? Into WHAT?

You say “She seems to be hoping that if she writes the events the truth will emerge from the pages.”

Do you think she’s seeking the truth? Another good question for the group:

What do you think the narrator's purpose is in writing the diary or journal?

I see this on page 3: “I hope I may discover some more general purpose as I write. I will have faith that something or someone4 is waiting for me on the far shore.”

That’s not the only time she mentions she’s waiting , either. What for?

Again Joan P notes another instance of apparent conflict in what the narrator is saying, well done, we need a list, please keep bringing apparent contradictions here!

(It’s going to take a while to get all these new questions in the heading but they should all be there later on today, can you all just take them from the text now?)

ginny

Joan did you catch that she spends more time in these first 86 pages talking about her friends and everything else under the sun EXCEPT her children?

I note also that on one page she mentions her daughters and she BOLDS their names, (page 48) what's that about?

ginny

As I recall, Samuel Pepys wrote quite a diary, didn't he? Was Anne Frank's story a diary?

Mal

(Do you guys love this Technicolor? Hahahaah)

Carolyn (Kiwi Lady)

Another stunning point, “perhaps she wanted to shock her family and old friends subconsciously.”

And maybe herself, too?

I am very interested in the perspectives of those who may have been somewhat in her shoes as the book progresses, I rely on you all to tell us when things begin not to ring true.

Marvelle, great points, you mention rage and “sneaky,” and not capable of anger fact to face!

She’s not very good at confrontation, is she? Run AWAY, I can hear Monty Python shouting, Run AWAY!

“She says she’s passive and her actions show her to be passive-aggressive.” Another excellent contrast!

Actually her use of the word passive I found curious, did you all?

She says on page 18, (read this carefully?)

I allowed two women to befriend ms. I had two friends in Suffolk. They were-indeed they still are—called Henrietta and Sally. I use this passive construction to describe our relationship because I cannot remember any moment at which I made any friendly step towards them.

No?

Grammarians?

No she does not use the passive to describe a relationship at all?

The only use of the passive voice there is in “they were….indeed still are…called Henrietta and Sally.

Another conflict.

And here’s another conflict: St. Andrew the Good, the Loved, the Admired in action at the dinner table, (page 84)

“Well, Sweetie, not quite one of your best, is it?” Then he took in Mr. and Mrs . Miller into the smile, as he looked around and said, “Just a wee bit on the disgusting side, and pushed all the meat to one side.”

…At such moments one dies a little.

I also liked your likening of the side bar, Marvelle: “Perhaps the side bar is the narrator’s way of giving perspective and balance.”

In order to do that tho, does the narrator here have a split personality? Why not give the balance in the narrative?

ginny

Malryn, posting together, sorry, I’ll have to reread later on, am late now

The software here plays tricks on us, so you all need to go back to Viogert’s last post here and read carefully lest you miss something!

Viogert, you said that the side bars were like Bible headings “keeping tags on what she’s written about nothing else…”

Did you notice they were in the third person? Is that normal do you think?

Is that the way we each think of ourselves? She comes to the discussion, she posts her thoughts, she goes to another discussion? Hah?

Is that what people normally write in a diary?

Bible, huh, who wrote the Bible glosses? The authors of the pieces?

Fascinating comparison!

LOVED this one, “Andrew seems to have taken up all the available oxygen in the marriage.” Hahaahaha

Yes he does, super point!

Will you explain your use of the word “sophistry?” as in “cramped by his overbearing sophistry?”

Does anybody BUT me find it interesting that St; Andrew is the one who actually committed the sin but she thinks SHE is perceived as the sinner and had to run away? That did not compute, for me, how do you all explain it.

Viogert you ask if she ever mentions being lonely? I think she does in her usual roundabout way:

“Because I thought it might find me a friend. Because I thought it might find me the kind of friend that I would not have known in my former life.” (page 10)

“Sometimes it’s the only time I hear my name all day, the only time I speak to another person all day…It reminds me that I have a name.: (page 22)

I knew something exciting would happen to me in London. I still know it. It will. It will come. It will some soon. (page 144)

“And with her I can be amusing. She summons up another self for me.” (page 67-68)

Friends, the author may be no scholar but she peppers her simple little story here with phrases in German, French, Latin and Greek with no translations, and it’s so full of literary references you need a dictionary, just keep all this in your hearts as we go thru the woods.

By the way, hahaha on “Mrs Pearson” the teacher, I nearly fell over. Our Mrs. Pearson and Mrs. Grimes taught French so if either of them wants to translate the French passage, why I’m all for it!

Did we note the use of “Hamilcar” in the name Hamilcar Henson? Hahaahahah really what big teeth you have Granny.

VIOGERT ALERT!! See next post!

ginny

VIOGERT ALERT!!!

As we read this book I’m coming across a lot of expressions we don’t use in America, and I think it would be useful for all of us, Viogert, as a Brit, haahaha if you ‘d help us out here and explain some of them, if you will?

For instance:

Latin S Level…Julia’s success- her A and S grades, her state scholarship and her place at Bristol where she was to read (note small r) English Literature (pages 28, 29)

We don’t have S levels and A and S grades, do they lead to some kind of State Scholarships, what “states?” Would you explain?

Semi-detached house (page 30)…what is this?

She weighted fourteen stone (39) we don’t use stones, how much did she weigh?

grace –and favour- Georgian house….(page 40) what’s grace and favour?

Notting Hill Housing Trust in-full (page 45) What’s Trust-in full?

Wormwood Scrubs (page 59) Is this something real or only pertaining to the book?

Lumpen boys (page 80)…what does this mean? They’re lumpy?

General thoughts!

Happy Happy Belated Birthday Carolyn (Kiwi Lady!!)

So sorry I missed it, that’s some timing, were you the earliest born for the year in your town?

Definitions and other odds and ends, try your hand if you like:font>

What is Schadenfreude on page 70?

What is troilism?

What does Faineant mean?

What does Ex somnis noctesque diesque mean?

Is the mention of Seven Sisters on page 44 the first time in the text it occurs? Maybe it would be interesting to see all the different things it refers to?

And more I think I’ll stop here for today and leave off the fable and Locksley Hall and hit them tomorrow once I’ve refreshed my memory of them, many thanks, Marvelle!

What do you all think about any or all of the new points today?

ginny

I’m finding I have to empty my head before I can get centered for the day’s discussion!! (Now there’s a thought for you… as though there were something in it!! LOL)

Marvelle, I too find Frankl a true source of inspiration. My mantra from his book:

The only thing we have absolute total control over is our reaction to any given situation.

Can’t tell you the number of times I have repeated this- both aloud and in my head. Now, I just have to help myself have that control--- But that’s for another discussion!! LOL Thanks for providing this lazy reader with the fable information. I needed that.

Ginny, Thank you for stating my thought so clearly--- I hadn’t realized why I couldn’t “get a handle” on what I read-- I was so confused I couldn’t recognize confusion!! Your insights into the structure of the narrative, your three voices, are very helpful in sorting this confusion.

Before I can get to the questions for today, with ANOTHER re-read of these first pages, I have to ask you all for some help with the solitaire deal… The second sentence of the book, page 24 and then soliloquy on pages 35 and 36. I recognize ( I think!!) symbolism, but can’t get beyond that…. HELP!!!

Lou

Ginny, you overloaded me today. It would take me a year to cover well all the points you've made. I'll begin by saying I do not see in Candida all the anger and rage you and some others here appear to see. I think Viogert was right. Candida had not liked her husband and the way he treated her for quite some time. On Page 18 and 19 in the Harcourt edition of the book the narrator says:
"That kindly twinkle in his (Andrew's) eyes had driven me to the shores of madness. The prospect of release, through the agency of Anthea Richards, was a delicious excitement to me. I embraced it and all its accompanying humiliations."
That doesn't sound like anger to me.

I don't see many coming forward here who have had experiences similar to those Candida had. Widowhood is very, very difficult, I would imagine, but I feel that it is not the same as what Candida and hundreds of other women, myself included, have been through. I don't know. I've never been widowed.

I lived in a marriage where I couldn't breathe. (Viogert is right about oxygen.) And I longed for release, a release I could not bring about myself, mostly because of fear and concern about how I, as a handicapped person, would support myself if I were alone.

I don't want to get boringly personal here, and I am not the same person as Candida Wilton, but there's a striking similarity between her reactions and those I had when my marriage ended many years ago.

Viogert wisely said that when a woman is treated like a cipher she gets to the point where she believes she is one. I understand fully Candida's statement that she didn't know what colors to wear, and I understand her reluctance to talk about the children who were so completely brainwashed about their mother by their father.

I also understand Candida's need to go where no one knew her and where she knew no one. It was not running away; it was starting fresh where there were no memories or reminders and where no family members or friends would take it upon themselves to hurt and belittle her, and she was fed up with both, I would assume.

What happens when one does this, though, is there is nothing except yourself to hang on to -- and people in her marital circumstance do hang on to the marriage and the future that marriage, bad as it is, will bring because it is what they know, and it seems safe.

A very wise person, an old Yankee who decided I was "worth saving" and who became my mentor, said to me once: "Mal, even misery can be comfortable because it is familiar." He was right.

When a woman does what Candida did, though, there comes a time when she doesn't know where she's going and what, if anything, there is to live for. At least, that's what happened to me. It was then I took stock in the autobiographical novel I mentioned yesterday. It was not just a purge for me; it was a more objective look at who I was at that time than I could have had otherwise. That's what I think the third person references to herself and the "gloss" are, an attempt to be objective, an attempt to adjust and accept what has happened, and is happening, to her.

Now, these are my observations based on my own experience. Without that experience, I doubt that there are many here who would agree.

Lou, I've thought about the Solitaire. In one way I think Candida's not wanting to play Solitaire means that she doesn't want to avoid the stock-taking she's doing and progress she's making by writing in the diary. In another, I believe she's thinking about choices. She mentions choices possible when one plays Solitaire with "real" cards and not electronically, for example. This to me represents again her desire to face what's happened, what is now going on at the moment and what will happen in the future, and to make the choice about whether she's going to live or die.

Ginny, you're responsible for this long post, whether you realize it or not.

Mal

Mal, your comments about understanding widowhood or divorcehood got me thinking of our author. She seems quite familiar with the divorced state, doesn't she? I checked the Drabble biography link included in the heading above and thought this was interesting:

In 1960 she married her first husband, actor Clive Swift, who is best known for his role in the 1990 BBC television comedy "Keeping Up Appearances." They had three children in the 1960's and divorced in 1975."

Three children - hmmm...I wonder about their relationship with their mother. I too have been thinking about how Candida feels she is regarded by all as the cause of the divorce. Is she imagining this? Why on earth would the daughters side with their father? C. doesn't seem surprised or even puzzled about this, does she?

Schadenfreude is a word I looked and made note of:
schadenfreude \SHAHD-n-froy-duh\, noun:
A malicious satisfaction in the misfortunes of others.

The historian Peter Gay -- who felt Schadenfreude as a Jewish child in Nazi-era Berlin, watching the Germans lose coveted gold medals in the 1936 Olympics -- has said that it "can be one of the great joys of life."
fainéant - that's French for "do nothing"...or a lazy person

Isn't it amazing...this many-sided character? Does it seem that she is also aware of the different persons within as she tries to figure out just who she really is?

Joan, when a man has to be a star in the eyes of everyone around him, like Andrew and my former husband, he diminishes his wife (his competition) to the point where she's nearly invisible. In subtle ways he influences the children. "This meat is tough" with a glare at the wife. Anything that goes wrong is her fault, including trouble in the marriage. Kids are gullible and pick up on this to the point of thinking their mother is nothing and their father is a god.

Mal

Ginny, just want to insert a word in the midst of this lively discussion to say I'll be tagging along, but not saying very much until the book arrives from Amazon UK. I'm certainly enjoying following all the comments so far. And Drabble is one of my favorite writers.

Kiwi Carolyn, a belated Happy Birthday . Here we are almost at opposite poles, sharing the same name and the same interest in talking about books. Also, by the way, we almost share the same birthday, but mine came 3 days before yours ( and thus in another year, hahaha! )

Carolyn A

Widowhood and divorce or unwilling separation create similar effects. I've never been divorced but have had long-term relationships that fell apart. These experiencess are common and I write on the belief that most of the participants in this discussion have had similar experiences (except lucky Ginny). It isn't unique. That is part of what the narrator is coming to grips with among other issues.

Ginny, I agree with the narrator's anger anger anger. She's in an emotional whirlpool but trying to find a way towards the shore. Voices? I also see the allusions as voices to be added to the Babel of tongues. I have my theory on that too but feel it's too early to voice (sorry, I couldn't help myself.) She said with feigned regret; the back of her hand artfully touching her forehead.

Ginny's inclusion of the definition for a diary novel really helps. The literary form of a diary -- the novel in diary form rather than an actual person's actual diary -- is used for the purpose of saying something; the diary novel draws its tension between the use of fact and fiction "of which the diarist is often aware."

I'm more inclined to think of an allusion to Virginia Woolf's famous and actual diary (not a diary novel) due to the overwhelming emotions of the narrator and the girl who filled the pockets of her jacket with stones and drowned herself in the Lady Pond. During WWII, and while she felt great turmoil, depression and fear as she wrote in her diary, Woolf filled the pockets of her jacket with stones and drowned herself in the Ouse River.

We have another unreliable narrator on our hands? Her comments about her unreliability are peppered throughout these early pages:

"...I must try to be honest...." (p30)

"...that is how I interpreted the fateful course of events, though I may have been deceived. I may have misunderstood the time sequence." (p49)

"(I don't have to be too careful about chronology, do I? This document isn't going to be used in evidence in a court of law, is it?)" (p59)

"By re-reading my account of Sally's visit, I see that much of it is dictated by bravado. In truth, looking back over my behaviour in Suffolk ..." (p74)

May the spirits help me! Now I'm seeing all the tidbits about time as well as unreliability.

Lou2 that's my mantra too from Frankl. Every human freedom can be taken from you in the camps, even your life, except for one; the freedom to choose one's attitude in any given situation.

I'm feeling overwhelmed in the discussion as I usually do in the beginning. I'm afraid to touch solitaire as a symbol. It has a couple different meanings I think and one's hilarious and the other more philosophically somber. Maybe you'd like to tacklet this, Lou2?

This novel is full of contradictions. I need to regroup and see about responding to one of Ginny's questions.

Happy birthdays to Kiwi Carolyn and Norway Carolyn!

Marvelle

Marvelle, you win. You go, girl!

Mal

Ginny
A - I guessed the headings were part of her detachment - a woman on her own, trying to disassociate herself from the discreditable emotions she feels. I could be wrong - but it fits with the sudden decision to record how she came to be where she is - she has been taught not to value herself, so she refers to herself in the third person?

B - If you've never kept a diary you are in no position to dictate how CW writes hers. I have kept one for YEARS. I have headings with the weather & the temperature. I record my moods too.

C - I am riddled with arthritis - I hadn't intended to whinge & bleat, but dictionaries are vast - & painful to handle too often. Can you use your own?

SOPHISTRY: - if you look it up you will find that 'sophisticated' means adulterated. 'Sophism' is the noun: an argument apparently correct but actually false; especially such an argument used to deceive. 'Sophistry' is when you practice this.

D - In my reading of the marriage, CW drove Mr Perfect into the arms of the dead girl's mother. (Or he might have been unfaithful already which drove the girl to suicide)

E - there was quite a lot written about not wishing to make friends with anyone who would like to be her friend. (That is actually quite funny. She is VERY prim at this stage). She wasn't lonely enough to cling to the friendships she made in the Virgil class. At this stage in the metamorphosis of a 60-year old woman - given the chance of solitude - false friends & time-wasters are the last thing swomen need, & she knew that

F - this must be a hangover from the school where the staff would pepper their conversations with Latin tags & phrases in other languages. It's common in an educational establishment & it rubs off on everybody. I thought they were well-signposted landmarks - like the terrible cliches she uses & then stops when the school influence flakes off.

G --I haven't a clue about the grades used in private schools after the war. I am nearer to Mrs Jerrold in age so Candida's past is another country.

H - Semidetached - two houses joined together by one wall.

I -- Fourteen pounds one stone. 14 x 14 = 196.

J - Grace & Favour means 'rent free'. Our Dear Queen has at her disposal hundreds of houses she scatters among her relations & retired staff to live in for nothing. They are called Grace & Favour residences, & so is rent free accommodation from schools & cathedrals in UK.

K -- Housing Trusts are Victorian establishments built for the low-paid. 'In-fill' is a system - still used today in London, where if theres an old bomb-site, or piece of unwanted ground, they build small houses on it for the workers. Peabody Trust is another - you can see some Peabody buildings on the northern Ladbroke Road map.

L - Wormwood Scrubs is about an acre of recreational grassland - the smaller Scrubs is next to it is just visible on the same map - top left. It has a famous prison still in use, situated at one end.

M. --Several reviewers remarked on having learned from Drabble that the meaning of lumpen is ragged.

N. - thanks Joan Pearson for the Schadenfreude definition. Troilism is three adults in a bed - assorted genders - don't ask me to tell you what they do because I don't know.

O. - I haven't a clue what Ex somnis noctesque diesque could mean but it look like 'it's rotten not getting a night's sleep'

P. - there are lots of things called 7 sisters around London - tube stations, public houses etc.

Great info, Viogert -- Grace and Favor and Housing Trusts and stones. Thanks.

Mal, I used the La Fontaine fable because its the specific one alluded to in "Seven Sisters." Animal characters are common to fables including timid Hares.

Correction: I should have said River Ouse in referring to the place of Virginia Woolf's suicide. For a biography on Virginia Woolf

CLICK HERE

Marvelle

Thank you for that, Marvelle, seems like everywhere you turn now you hear about Virginia Woolf and those stones in the pockets thing, I had never heard it before The Hours, appreciate that url and the one you put up earlier, Malryn, we'll be getting them in the heading asap!

Thank you, Viogert, for those wonderful explanations of - Wormwood Scrubs, Housing Trusts, stone, and all the others. That's very valuable to us as readers and I appreciate your efforts there, very much.

I am riddled with arthritis - I hadn't intended to whinge & bleat, but dictionaries are vast - & painful to handle too often. Can you use your own?

I'm sorry. Certainly I can and will, I apologize for asking you these terms and will look them up on google in future, I am sorry you're in pain.

I only asked about sophistry to find out what you meant Will you explain your use of the word “sophistry?” as in “cramped by his overbearing sophistry?”

I had not seen that in Andrew and was just curious what you meant by Andrew’s overbearing sophistry.

I’m sorry you had to look up the definition, thank you.

You said,

“ CW drove Mr Perfect into the arms of the dead girl's mother.

Wow, do you blame her then? Now there I never blame the wife, should I?

Great point!

I wonder if CW thinks she did that, also? Do you think she worries over it?

B - If you've never kept a diary you are in no position to dictate how CW writes hers. I have kept one for YEARS. I have headings with the weather & the temperature. I record my moods too.

I have kept diaries.

I’m not dictating diary writing to CW, my question rather pertained to the query (a) IS this a diary or is it a journal
and (b) the glosses are in the third person, no matter what it is.

I have never made an entry that started “She found the horse sick and she moved plants today.” That was all I meant, sorry that was not clear.

I did think that this that you said was really good!

A - I guessed the headings were part of her detachment - a woman on her own, trying to disassociate herself from the discreditable emotions she feels.

That’s super, many thanks!

Malryn, I’m sorry you’ve overwhelmed, the idea, or I guess I see my job, is to present a lot of things that different people might glom on to and address, not expect every person to deal with every one at once, sorry you feel overwhelmed. Once the questions are in the heading and I apologize for being slow with that, there's a bit more involved than may meet the eye here, perhaps you can choose one you like.

Thank you for explaining how your experiences help you understand the narrator.

I’m not sure I understand this remark, Ginny, you're responsible for this long post, whether you realize it or not.

I’m glad you are making long posts, the more the merrier?

Lou2, I tell you what, the solitaire references or allusions are over my head, am not sure what’s meant, thank you Malryn for your explanation, I really have none. I love your attitude, tho Lou2!

CAROLYN in NORWAY !! Welcome! Wow, what an international bunch we are here, England, New Zealand, the US and Norway! Wow, welcome and HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!

Marvelle:

I’m not too sure about the “lucky ginny” bit, let’s just say that I can understand depth of emotion without having been divorced, but not of course from the same standpoint as somebody who has been.

We have another unreliable narrator on our hands?

I wonder that myself, actually, good point!

Joan P thank you for schadenfreude \SHAHD-n-froy-duh\, noun: A malicious satisfaction in the misfortunes of others. And fainéant - that's French for "do nothing"...or a lazy person, appreciate that, that schadenfreude, wow, that’s some concept huh?

And thank you for that information on Clive Swift, I love Keeping Up Appearances, he was a respected Shakespearean actor, I believe, before that and has fairly recently been on British tv (I think, I need to go look him back up).

Well! Lots of super stuff here and wonderful POV’s. We’re working on getting up a new heading with all the new questions in it that you all brought up or suggested and hopefully that will be later on today, meanwhile what is YOUR opinion of the overall , (just to take one till they all get up in the heading) tone of the book, so far?

PS: Joan P, this is a fascinating line of thought: . I too have been thinking about how Candida feels she is regarded by all as the cause of the divorce. Is she imagining this? Why on earth would the daughters side with their father? C. doesn't seem surprised or even puzzled about this, does she?

I wonder that, too, surely that is not the norm? Or is it? Girls siding with Dad to this extent? What has CW done to cause this, I wonder?

ginny

Ok just a note, we have 7 "one word descriptions of how you find the author here in these first 86 pages" in the heading and we'd really like to hear YOURS if you have not yet spoken? If you think the exact opposite of what everybody in the heading or so far as said, good, let's hear from you and what you think?

ginny

Mercy!!! See, I came back to see what you WONDERS had figured out about solitaire... and now have bunches more to wonder about!!! I love it!!!

Ginny, please let me know if this is not appropriate here, but I saw an article in Book magazine that just arrived... an article on Oxford. Oh, boy, don't know how in the world I'll stand not going!!

Now, to finish this re-read and get thoughts together!

Lou

But I am thinking of around the World in 80 Days and to think of the countries I have heard from in Just 2 Days. What a Time We Live in. Wheee.

Ginger

Lou2, you can say anything you please here, any time on any subject, you're among friends! We pride ourselves in the Books here on being able to say what we will.

Oh boy you mean the new issue of Book has an article on Oxford? Oh BOY must get it out of the car!! Well that's an omen, you just come! hahahahaah

Ginger, isn't that amazing, this whole thing is just incredible, did you see this super quote by Pedln in another discussion?

Books become so much more when they're discussed with friends on SeniorNet.

We need that in our Great Quotes, Ginger! (Ginger is our Books Quote Meister).

I loved this one she said in the same discussion, may put it in the heading, "I'm committed to dabble in Drabble,"

I LIKE that!

ginny

Hey Ginger, is your head whirling? So's mine and I think so it is for most of us right now. Fun!

Lucky Ginny, I just meant to refer to your comment about not going through a separation of one kind or another. I agree that you don't have to live through an experience to recognize and understand it. There are no special qualifications to discussing feelings or this book; being human we are all qualified to discuss life. To argue that there are special qualifications would be an unfortunate and self-limiting judgment; IMO there aren't any hands-off signs for any person on the different issues.

Well, I thought I might as well post the following now and it's going to confuse but it is something that would come out anyway:

In The Guardian interview of Drabble which is in the heading links, Suzie Mackenzie writes

"...in the course of her research [for "The Peppered Moth"] -- she loves research, particularly anything of an archaeological bent -- she went off to see a certain Professor Sykes of Oxford University, who spends much of his time looking for the last Neanderthal link. He took her DNA and she is still awaiting his call. 'But I don't think I can be the Neanderthal link, or I would have heard from him, wouldn't I?' "

Drabble wrote "Seven Sisters" after "The Peppered Moth" and this earlier novel looked at genetics, DNA, destiny, and was Drabble's search for answers of why her mother was a certain way and why Drabble was etc ... and it even included the true story of the recently discovered genetic link between a living English man and the 9,000 year old (or thereabouts) human skeleton residing at the Natural History Museum in London.

And Drabble saw a certain Professor Sykes before she was interviewed for The Guardian and he took her DNA? Here's a link to Professor Sykes and his scientific discovery:

EUROPE'S SEVEN FEMALE FOUNDERS

Later Prof. Sykes wrote a book The Seven Daughters of Eve

Now to add to the confusion, here's the well-known speech from Shakespeare's As You Like It:

All the World's A Stage

Marvelle

I’m half way through this re-read and found these things…

· Do you see her move to London as positive or defeated behavior?

“I decided to remove myself and start a new life.” P43

“I knew something exciting would happen to me in London. I still know it. It will. It will come. It will come soon.” P.44 Does this also speak to the waiting?

So it would seem to me that the move was a new start and very positive.

· What hopeful signs if any do you see in the Narrator in the first 86 pages?

“Here I shall remake my body and my soul.” P. 19

“….I am proud of the way I have parcelled out my life and controlled the empty spaces and filled up the time. It has not been easy, but I have worked at it, and I have made a shape to my life.” P.40

Hopeful? They seemed so to me.

Does anybody BUT me find it interesting that St; Andrew is the one who actually committed the sin but she thinks SHE is perceived as the sinner and had to run away? That did not compute, for me, how do you all explain it.

“The circumstances of their affair were thought to be romantic rather than squalid or opportunist.” P.42

“ The Trust was very forgiving and forbearing with Andrew, as it knew it couldn’t do without him and couldn’t afford the consequences of a posture of outrage.” P.43

Ginny, I don’t know that I’m not in agreement with you, but I did find the above… and I thought it seemed to her that “everyone”, esp. their children sided with him, she thought, imagined???, they thought she “drove” him to the affair????

This discussion could now be my full time job!! It's a lot more fun than my last one!!

Lou

Gosh- What a lot of posts to read.

Candida and her relationship with her children. I have known families where the father continually is critical of the mother but the children have not necessarily taken their fathers part. I think there must have been other reasons besides the criticism which explain the lack of a relationship with her children. When I first read the book I felt Candida early in her marriage was not interested in becoming part of her husbands life. It is expected for a private school masters wife to become part of the school, she, I think made it plain it was not of much interest to her. Most marriage breakups have some fault on both sides as my grandmother always said "It takes two to tango!" I must admit I began to like Candida much better as the book progressed.

Carolyn N - Are you a native Norwegian? With a name like Carolyn I would have thought you may have some English Connection? Nice to see you here. My mum named me after a character in a movie so as your birthday is near to mine was this movie an influence on your mother too!

Kiwi Carolyn

Noted Pedin and posted.

Marvelle9 Oh Yes Mind Whirling. Who would have dreamed what is going on now on Senior Net et al.

Ginger

Ginny, what I said about your being responsible for my long post was in the nature of a joke. Something you posted earlier opened up a floodgate of comparisons in me between what happened to me and many other women I've known and what happened to Candida Wilton, so I overflowed.

If anyone has read an implication in that post that I think only someone who has had this experience can understand it, she is wrong. What I said was that probably only people who had endured the same thing might agree with some of what I said.

I see Candida and Andrew as very different people, almost opposite in nature. He was outgoing, liked the admiration of audiences and the pomp that went along with his job. She was a loner, somewhat aloof, restrained and contained, with her emotions always under control. To him she might have seemed untouchable, frigid and superior-acting, uncooperative when it came to school duties, and perhaps hard to please.

To which of these types would the children gravitate? The cool mother disciplinarian or the twinkling eyes, well-liked, if pompous, father? Add to this the fact that Andrew blamed Candida for domestic and other mishaps beyond her control, and no doubt put her down until she virtually disappeared. The result is that the kids leaned to him, not her.

The narrator says that Andrew seduced the children. That's not a usual thing to say. Had he seduced the affection and admiration of other children in the school -- like perhaps Anthea's daughter who drowned herself? Is it possible that there had been a flirtation between Andrew and Anthea that this young girl, with a possible schoolgirl crush on him, was aware of which broke her heart to the point of suicide?

The narrator says on Page 49, Harcourt edition:
“Possibly Andrew and Anthea had been carrying on with one another for some time before the ‘accidental death”, and simply used it as a pretext for making their entanglement public . . . .”
Something to think about, isn’t it?

Mal

Mal I inherited a cool reserved nature from my Dad. I have made a conscious effort to force myself to be more touchy feely with the children even though its alien to my nature. When the kids got old enough they pointed out my reserve and my aloofness. I always talked a lot to the kids but was never able to be spontaneous. I am thankful I was able to turn things around! With all my efforts however I am still unable to cope with large noisy parties! I prefer small dinner groups and good conversation!

Carolyn

Malryn -- it's all there isn't it? Picking up on Candida's brutal honesty about her part in the break-up of the union isn't dissembled or disguised is it? Nor is her part in her ostracism afterwards. Her maternal affection for "the tumbled heaps" of little children she loved is quite obvious, just as her description of communal living at the school appeared to take the domestic responsibility off her shoulders. In this situation, the hi-jacking of the daughters by the school system - the glow of the Golden Headmaster shining upon them, gave them no option but to cling to daddy. He had the status, the money & the power to 'seduce' his daughters subliminally into believing their mother's behaviour was reprehensible. For one of them to suggest that her mother was 'wasting family money' by moving to London instead of 'living in a hovel in Suffolk', sounded awful but the girl's were literally given no choice. Two of them hadn't the strength of character to defy their father - the middle one just scarpered. CW isn't a saint - she resented being elbowed out of their affections - but had the wisdom to accept that she didn't like them very much either. There is no human law that says we must like our adult children, & every psychiatric clinic will eventually hear how mummy is the root of all evil. She is an easy scapegoat.

Many wives of CW's generation - after a few decades of marriage, feel like a right-hand foot in a left-hand shoe. They entered marriage prepared for duty & devotion; their husbands expected to provide for them so long as his needs were met & his word was law. Those days are gone. There are a lot of women over 60 happily living alone in UK, as I presume there are in the US. We come into our own much later in life - like a bonus.

Oh I LOVE all your thoughts, just love them, am running way behind as per, here is a new page of questions, still under review, for your enjoyment, the heading which now will suddenly become quite long will be fixed, have asked Pat W to take all the URLs thank you VERY much for them and give them their own page o honor, so there will be much scrambling behind the scenes, please hold on and keep on coming:

See if anything here raised by our readers (needs to be credited where the idea came from, that's in the works) interests you?

For Your Consideration:

Week I:

Pages 1-86:

1. If you had to characterize in one word one feeling you get from the presentation of the character in the opening pages, what would it be?

Jane: sad, almost pathetic
Lou2: pathetic
Malryn: dull/ familiar
Joan Pearson: daring
marvelle9: shocked
viogert:detached
ginny: angry

2. In the first 18 pages the character explains to the reader in the voice of the first person, such thoughts as:

Nothing much happens to me now, nor ever will again.

I grow ever more cowardly with age.

I am quite interested in the bleating, whining, resentful, martyred tone I seem to have adopted.

I don’t remember choosing it, and I don’t much like it.

I am quite good, for better or worse, at avoiding people. …that’s because I was lacking in self-esteem

I don’t know what colours to wear.

Do you tend to agree with the character's own assessment of herself or do you see something else?

4. Do you see her move to London as positive or defeated behavior?

5. What hopeful signs if any do you see in the Narrator in the first 86 pages?

6. What would you say is the tone of this book so far?

7. There are no dates in this “diary,” no expressions of time, does that make it not a diary or is there a difference in diary and journal?

Did “she” write these third person observations into her diary? If not who is the author of those statements?

Is this use of the third person an effort to organize her thoughts and stick to the subject and the facts?

What do you think the narrator's purpose is in writing the diary or journal?

8. Can you identify personally with this narrator in any way?

9. Why are the names of the daughters listed in bold? (page 48)

10. What is meant by "Why do I feel so powerful a need to betray myself to her? What hold does Sally Hepburn have on me? What are these games we play?" (on page 71, Harcort edition).

11. If you could give Candida advice at this point, what would it be?

ginny

Lou2, Hopeful? They seemed so to me.

One of my problems in this book is the feeling that not only is the narrator fooling herself, she's jerking the reader, too. There are too many voices and too many contradictions.

For instance, in the quote I mentioned before about her new friendship, the person who sees something else in her that nobody else including herself does, that's....I can really relate to that feeling, she becomes somebody else with that person and she says with her I have a name. That's beautiful.

My notes in the margin are huge, WHAT IS HER NAME?

After making a point of her name she doesn't tell the reader, not then anyway. Teeth. OR... is she very subtly making the point she HAS no name unless somebody else gives it to her? In that case we want to watch WHEN she calls herself by Candida? Fascinating, huh?

I think the book is extremely well written and I'm going to gently disagree it's all hung out there to dry. I keep thinking of the local phrase, "you're not fooling anybody but yourself", I am seeing stuff here that contradicts what she says, somewhat in spite of herself, and we ONLY have her word for what happened in the first place: it's ALL coming from her.

Oh I agree, Viogert, that there are lots of estranged families, what a tragedy that is, how sad. What I can't see is the way she discusses her children. I know she is hurt and bitter, but to describe them as she does?

Poor thing, all her relationships are bad: "I did not want to be too near to my mother, for fear she would suck me in."

Poor thing.

Yet who of us has not on occasion had negative thoughts? We're not all saints, are we? No, Malryn, nobody thinks you're saying nobody but somebody who has been thru this can understand. We all know being caught on fire would be an unpleasant experience, we've all had small burns, hopefully we never have a large percentage of our body burned, we have heard how awful it is, at the same time nothing in our imaginations would prepare us for the real feeling.

Here we have the REAL feeling, very well expressed.

And as Viogert says there are a lot of women living alone in their 60's.

I'm going to advance the somewhat radical idea that there are a lot of women living not alone in their 60's who are more alone than if they WERE alone, and for whom it takes more, not less strength in dealing with life? Just think, our Candida is free now, right? Free from what you all describe as being put upon and down, and so free, what does she do?

Who can she blame now?

I'm going to say on behalf of the First Wives of the World or the Old Wives of the World that, call it what label you will, dealing with life's challenges takes equal courage?

Gosh just thinking now of some of the volunteer efforts I’ve been involved in, I’ve seen things that people endure WHILE married that far exceed what Narrator is going thru, heck she says herself she feels a feeling of POWER now and so she should, she’s FREE but at what cost?

I'm going to say I'd cut out my own tongue before I'd ever say anything on the order of what she says about her own children, I don’t care if they push me off a mountain, I am heartily sorry for her loss in her own depiction of her children.

I think that one thing above all else gives me great pity for her, her own opinion of her children. Not what they DID or Andrew DID (great point Malryn on the “seducing and the possibility of more flirtation, have you read the entire book or are you speculating here? I have not)... but her own reaction? Therein lies her own sin and nobody BUT her committed it. And nobody BUT her is to blame.

Having said all that, having said she's obviously destructively angry and hurt to the point that (and oh, Viogert, here's another instance of loneliness, she says her spell check is her friend, it speaks to her and she answers) if that's not pitiful I don't know what is.

I;m seeing some glimmers of hope, of reaching out to others, of trying, but she’s fooling herself too, and I’m not sure she’s not fooling the reader, along with it, that’s my take on it.

Carolyn, you said, I think there must have been other reasons besides the criticism which explain the lack of a relationship with her children.

I agree with you, these are not babies, these are grown women children, they are old enough to see thru this mess, what a mess both parents have made of this split, it may be THAT which torments her, too. Surely over all those years some connection to them must have been formed, the “taking sides,” in adults is a bit….what?

Marvelle, thank you for those URLS we’ll have a splendid body of reference when we’re through!

Lou2, you said,

Ginny, I don’t know that I’m not in agreement with you, but I did find the above… and I thought it seemed to her that “everyone”, esp. their children sided with him, she thought, imagined???, they thought she “drove” him to the affair????

That’s a super point, how much of this IS her imagining, it’s told from her POV, I am fascinated at the Dorian Grey aspect of Andrew, once in a while we see the picture in the attic, but only once in a while. Oh and usually nobody agrees with me, hahahaah so don’t let it be an issue! hahahaha

I must commend Viogert for bringing this here to our attention, it’s going to make a super discussion!

If you were her psychologist, what would you recommend to Narrator? Are YOU sympathetic to her at this point? We are all coming at this from different POV, and some of us don't know how it turns out, it will be VERY interestng to see if we were on the mark or way off!

ginny

If I were this woman's psychologist, I'd listen to what she said and encourage her to continue what she's doing, and I'd tell her, "Above all, keep on writing in your diary."

Of course there are contradictions. This woman was married for twenty odd years, sheltered and confined, a shadow of somebody else or many somebody elses all of her life. She's a person who has never known exactly what and who she is. Daughter of a father and mother who controlled her, wife of a man as soon as she left her parents' side, mother of kids, wife of the Headmaster, never Candida On Her Own before. She has absolutely no individual identity and never has had one. Thus she has no name.

Why "poor thing"? Why pity? She's tackled a mammoth job of dissecting her life and herself. Part of that is the realization that relationships in her life have been bad, and I bet two to one that she won't gloss over her own responsibiity in that.

When my marriage ended, all three of my children turned against me and sided with their father. Not being as restrained and controlled as Candida, I tore myself apart until the mentor I wrote about yesterday said to me, "They're treating you like you're their whipping boy, and you're playing right along. You don't need their good will or their ill will, ELIMINATE THEM FROM YOUR LIFE!" I was horrified at the idea, but little by little understood that if I were to heal and survive, I had to do exactly that; not only with my children but with all others who used me to satisfy their . . . . What did you call it, Ginny? Schadenfreude? I had to stop helping these people out by racking myself over the coals. Is it rack? Wrack? Rake?

When I did, I saw that my daughter was sweet, yes, and two-faced and manipulative at that time; that my elder son had used his various illnesses, real and imagined, as contrivances to be the selfish star that disrupted the entire family, that my younger son was brilliant, vain and very screwed up, and that none of them behaved toward me in the respectful, adoring way they behaved toward their father, if only to get his attention. I was easy and always there for them; he was not.

After that process of clearing my mind and opening my eyes, I was able to understand why things had happened as they did, and later to change my relationship with my kids. We don't know yet where this woman is going to go with this dissection she's performing, but I feel certain that she won't let herself escape her rather brutal, but necessary surgery.

I don't think she's conning herself -- or me as her reader, either.

It is not a radical idea to think there are married women who are not living alone who are more alone than if they were. We all know them. Perhaps some of us have been part of that group ourselves?

Mal

Head whirling? Oh yes,Marvelle. And Lou2, definitely a full-time job and much more fun than vacuuming. (I'm beginning to get a "Candida" complex about my abode which will soon be seen by the "ladies of the church." Must keep that promise to vacuum.)

But first: question 8:yes, I can identify. Our divorces had similar characteristics, but I, fortunately (?) was much younger, which perhaps makes coping and responding easier.

Question 4: The London move -- She did something totally new and unexpected for her, but was it more in desperation and was she naive? I doubt she talked with anyone or sought advice from others. It boggles my mind that a woman approaching 60 would invest her limited funds in a 3rd-floor walkup.

Question 11: I would suggest she attempt to start a correspondence with Ellen, the daughter in Finland, who seems more neutral towards Mom than the other two daughters -- something brief and breezy, -- Hi, what do you think of my new digs? . . . off to my health club. . . sort of thing. She can at least pretend, then, that she is not alienated, and Ellen may answer if she doesn't feel threatened.

Question 7:This appears to me to be more of a journal than a diary. It doesn't come across as chronological, but more of what's on her mind at the time.

Hopeful signs: She let Julia in her apartment -- does that mean she's not afraid for Julia to know about her finances? She works with the man from Wormwood Scrubs -- am not sure why, she really has not said. Is this some volunteer work on her part? Why is she doing this?

I'll probably answer these same questions totally differently tomorrow, but now the vacuum cleaner is getting demanding.

Ginny, Yes, I've read through to the end of the book... and first pages who knows how many times... and I STILL don't know what happened!!! The Aeneid isn't giving me the answers just as Remains of the Day didn't. So I'm depending on all of us to figure this thing out. I've read Robinson Crusoe and Woman in White this month also. Of course, they are both classics and their styles are nothing like Seven Sisters, but it just hit my mind part of the challenge of reading them was their "Englishness". Could that be part of the challenge here??? (And then there's the problem of defining Englishness"!!!)

My advice to her would be pray a lot and hang in there!! Because that's what I do when I don't know what else to do!

Insights have to come from the book... so off to tackle it with a "fresh" look..

Lou

Pedln - it's called "Prison Visiting" - it's a voluntary good-works sort of thing. Probably one of the occupations Candida chose to make herself useful.

Ginny-- The diary/journal appears to be the beginning of an 'examined life' -where previously it hadn't been worth examining. The first pages swing from optimism to pessimism - half-full/half-empty. She says she joined the Virgil class 'to keep her mind in good shape'. She writes "I will have faith that something or someone is waiting for me on the far shore". She writes "Nobody knew the exhilleration I felt when I realised that I would not have to live with Andrew for the rest of my life" - & also "One day I intend to win the Lottery with lucky numbers". This is a woman who has not been visited by her children for two years. She doesn't sound like she missed them. It sounds mostly like anticipation - & in spite of condemning people who done her wrong, she takes some of the blame,but she tickled to pieces to be rid of them all.

1. at the time of writing, she's all the things she accuses herself of;

2. I don't think the headings signify anything other so grand as a Greek chorus - for what purpose? It's not a 'grand' book

4. the move to London is an adventure;

5. for hopeful signs - see above;

6. the tone is simply getting comfortable with her new surroundings - & I would guess she is enjoying the solitude:

7. I don't think it matters - is it relevant?;

of course she wrote the 3rd person headings. Who else?

I haven't a clue what 3rd person headings means & I don't give a toss;

third person headings can be one of a dozen methods a novelist can tell a story;

8. yes I can - easily;

9. these are her babies, these are their names; they didn't always dislike her - for a minute they are important ;

10. the last person she needs is a therapist. Like Malryn I think "Go girl";

11. at this stage the book is just beginning to wake up & change is in the air:

Lou - you are right this book is very English middle class! Working class people are much less reserved and warmer. Our country was settled mainly by the middle class and gentry they were the beginning of our society we were not a convict settlement like Australia. Our culture is much more reserved and polite than the Australian one and there has been criticism of us as being nice polite but wishy washy people by some people in other discussions. I can understand Candida's reserve which is appropriate to her generation and the way she was brought up. I was brought up by my grandparents mainly and my grandpa was a perfect Gentleman having the manners from the Victorian age as taught to him by his parents. He expected this politeness from us and for us to have an erect carriage and to walk without scuffing our feet etc! He was distant with his children but for some reason very affectionate with us , his grandchildren.

In saying this book is very English Candida could be any woman in any land learning to know herself and to forge out a life for herself in her golden years.

Carolyn

I have to add. With the right therapist don't knock therapy!

Candida - Hard to know what I would say to her. Firstly I would say to her to write to her children,tell them of her new life and begin by trying to have a friendship with them. It would not necessarily have to be at first a mother/child relationship. I think this would be the most important first step for her in becoming a whole person.

Carolyn

Viogert, I like your style. Reminds me of the strong, independent, no nonsense New England women from which I'm sprung.

Carolyn, nobody's knocking therapists. There are therapists and therapists. I knew two bad ones right after my marriage was over, one of whom I told to his face he was an egomaniac before I walked out the door. I knew one good one in Florida when I was drowning under my elder son's accident-caused schizophrenia, the son who decided I was the only road to salvation for him before he arrived unexpected on my doorstep, sick, hungry and crazy. That therapist explained this serious mental illness to me, let me babble for fifty minutes each week for a while, and sent me home to find my own answers for myself.

The last thing in the world Candida needs right now is somebody telling her what to do or coddling her in any way. For the first time in her life she's grabbed the reins, and is finding her own answers and telling herself what to do.

One of the worst things Candida could do for herself at this time is try to create an unnatural relationship with her kids and a sure repetition of what had come before, one of which kids told her she had accepted a "golden handshake" from Andrew. That's a statement of love? They don't care about her. Why in the world should she bend over backwards to care about, and care for, them? Because she happens to be their mother? Candida's not a "Mummy" any more. When the time is right, maybe they'll reunite. Who knows?

Except for some spelling, the only thing English I see about this book is locale. This could happen anywhere to any woman in any Western civilization.

What I'm interested in is this new life of hers, which includes some very unusual characters like the woman with the lump in her back in the Health Club, Anais, the man with the dreadlocks who lives under the bridge, the holy black man with the crucifix and others she sees. Candida's vista has opened wide. Surely some changes will come from it.

Mal

Of course, 'she' is still not Candida; 'she' is only an anonymous narrator who hasn't found her individuality yet. It's there inside her but it's been suppressed I'd say. So I will stick with calling her the narrator until she chooses to give hersef a name.

Advice? I think she's going through a natural phase of grieving for what-had-been and for having lost herself. Diaries are useful in writing out your feelings; of seeing what you really think about things. The narrator is trying to discover who she is partly through her diary and she writes down her spleen which is a private affair.

I've seen a lot of women however who wrap themselves up in their 'diaries of spleen' which imprints that hostility deep inside them and it becomes a part of their nature. The narrator, I think, does a soul-saving strategy in that regards. She seems to go back and re-read her diary -- I can imagine her wincing at what she'd written -- and that is when I think she adds the sidebars; as an editorial comment to herself. Smart woman, this narrator.

She's doing what's right for her at this particular time in her life. She's writing all her messy emotions out in a diary (which could be self-destructive if aired in public), then casting a discerning eye over what she's written and noting comments down in the margins. Advice isn't needed.

Okay, some of us are saying "clearly the narrator cannot be Dido because she lacks the Grand Heroic Scope of a Dido and she's living a common, everyday life." Well bravo! that's exactly the point Drabble is making with her Aeneid allusions and that is exactly why the Aeneid is important to an understanding of "The Seven Sisters."

How does Drabble use allusions to the Aeneid? The allusions are ironic to show the contrast between Virgil's world and the modern world. (The information on allusion will be in the soon-to-be revamped heading of this discussion.)

Ironic allusion was done famously in James Joyce's Ulysses. The contrast between the Heroic Epic of Homer's wanderer Odysseus and Joyce's modern man Leopold Bloom shows a hugh diminishment in the opportunity to be a Hero with a capital H. That is the plight of modern man/woman. Joyce used allusion ironically to show, not tell, the contrast and that is clearly what Drabble is giving us with the Aeneid allusions.

We'll have to see what her final conclusions are about this modern dilemma. Joyce's work showed that while the modern world did not allow for Heroes, there is a heroism to living your everyday life as well as you can.

The Aeneid and the sidebars -- or Greek Chorus as Ginny says -- are important in "Seven Sisters." Will the sidebars change? If so, will they change because the narrator is finally accepting her life in the modern world? Or because she is changing in some way? Again, it's something to look for as we read further.

Marvelle

I argued with myself about going any further into the structure of "Seven Sisters" but have decided to put forth my theory to settle things in my own mind if no one else's. We'll see if the theory bears up in the following weeks or if it doesn't.

I think the narrator is writing a rough draft in the form of a diary as an experiment; she is editing her thoughts after they've been written (thoughts that are part fiction and part imagination); the bolded names of the daughters would be like a list of characters with quite similar backgrounds that she needs to keep straight in her head. The Aeneid allusions indicates her state of mind. She tries out French, German, Latin words for effect; as a experiment in technique and she mostly drops that idea. What doesn't work in writing her story she drops; what doesn't work in her life she drops (pretense of marriage; the settled boring life in the outskirts of country). Is the process of writing her life's story a metaphor for her life?

In this rough draft she's writing to find herself and to purge herself of her anger; re-writing her life which is power and taking control, don't you think? She just isn't quite sure of how to take control, hence the editing and re-writing process and the changes of mind throughout this section.

Someone mentioned that reading about the Aeneid didn't help with understanding "The Seven Sisters" or at least that she couldn't put the two works together in her mind. What I see as allusions from the Aeneid links:

-- the lumpen/ragged boys who jeer at the narrator (p79-80) -- part of the unfriendly crowd at the river's edge of the Underworld?

-- the "particularly disgusting" motorway that's used as an unoffical dump for useless engine parts, mattresses, lumber and the Christmas tree (p55) -- a modern-day industrial graveyard? The narrator especially takes note of the tree and that "it has weathered two seasons. Will it outlast my own sojourn?" So her fate is tied to that of the tree? Modern woman and nature perhaps? There are eternal pools of standing water (the river of the Underworld and the subconscious) that the narrator takes care to pick her way around.

-- the narrator thinks of the shiny modern young people at the Health Club as being like Americans which is another world from the motorway. (p80) -- the young are not ready for the underworld yet and Americans do not have that historical/cultural heritage?

-- Howling, chained monsters and the shiny American-like young people: the narrator writes "They come from another world from the man with dreadlocks who lives under the bridge by the howling monsters rattling their chains. They would not recognize the holy black man with the crucifix." -- the monsters guarding the entrance to the Underworld and the symbol of sacrifice and salvation?

________________________________________________

This is what I see after having reviewed some of the Aeneid links. There are many more allusions. Do the allusions make a difference with the tone of the novel? I think so. And recognizing the allusions enrichess the meaning of "The Seven Sisters" and, yes, makes it more complex but I also think it's more intriguing imagining the narrator circling the waters of the Underworld without quite being prepared to enter the gates.

I really don't want to push the wondering of Ginny's Greek Chorus/my sidebars and the structure as a work in progress any more. I wanted to give some idea of how I'm seeing the novel through the frame of the Aeneid and the use of allusions. It'll become clearer to me once we get past the introductory part of "Seven Sisters."

Marvelle

The only link between the narrator and Dido that I can see is a certain preoccupation with death. I think being alone and her birthday have made her aware of her mortality. This is emphasized by thoughts of the watery death of Anthea's daughter and the woman the man in Wormwood Scrubs and his buddies murdered. I think water is important: the Aeneid voyage from Carthage to Naples, for example -- the lake . . . what's its name? where the underworld is. Along with this facing of mortality comes the knowledge that she herself has the choice whether to live or to die.

There is the thought of living, too, as represented by Anais and even Julia and Sally, and there are thoughts of going away. To Pompeii with Sally? To Naples?

I do not think that the narrator is especially intellectual; I think she's restless. She's tired of marking time; she wants to make something happen.

I believe that going to the Virgil class and finding things in parts of the Aeneid that appeal to her, especially Book Six, have put her mind and her fancy on the journey Aeneas took, thus her references to it.

Mal

In revising the following post I noticed Mal had posted in the meantime and she mentions the word intellectual in talking about the narrator. That's a first, considering the narrator in those terms. But then she doesn't have to be an intelletual or a scholar to love stories, does she? An intellectual or scholar as compared to whome? And if she (narrator or Drabble) is, so what? Those two names signify little beyond qualifying the people who use them. The narrator kept her schoolbook copy of the Aeneid that she read as a young girl; Drabble reads and loves Classical and Literary works. So what?

______________________________________________

I thought it might be useful to talk about dreadlocks, about why there are dreadlocks. People who've worn dreadlocks include King Tut, John the Baptist, Sampson, Ancient Celts. Julius Caesar described Celtic warriors as having "hair like snakes" which makes me think of Medusa.

Dreadlocks

Medusa

Whenever I've seen dreadlocks on someone I've always thought of their being a copycat Medusa, the original dreadlock lady. She was ravished for her beauty and then punished by Athena who turned her hair into fearful snakes.

Marvelle

Come on, Marvelle! You're too smart not to know what I meant, and the word certainly wasn't used to start an argument.

Mal

This is eerie....a parallel. I have a friend, well actually this woman is the wife of my husband's friend of some 40 years. They are going through a particularly painful separation, which will surely lead to divorce. His betrayal was the worst possible...unspeakable. They have both gone for therapy, his much more extensive. She is clearly the victim - she is overcome with the grief, on the verge of anger, but still weeping at the loss of her marriage. After her session with a therapist, she was furious, because his advice consisted of telling her to get a good lawyer, after hearing the cause for her distress. From what I've heard, this was the best advice he could give her at this time. She has to handle her recovery on her own. Her main job is to see that SHE was not the cause of his betrayal.

I think that our yet un-named ex-wife could have used such advice. It seems that Andrew has come out of this mess unscathed, leaving his beleaguered wife to fend for herself. She'd like to visit the ruins of Carthage, but "I haven't got that kind of money. Andrew has, but I haven't." A good lawyer?

She also wants to hear the Sibyl's "I wish to die." She wants to hear the Sibyl say this TO HER. Did you notice that? She wants someone to pay, or at least apologize to HER.

She is really alone, isn't she. I thought her reasons for signing up for the Virgil course were interesting...Lou, you mention that she wanted to keep her mind sharp...but I found the other reasons equally interesting. She joined because the course seemed "anachronistic"...(is this how she feels about herself?) and also "because I thought it might find me a friend - the kind of friend I would not have known in my former life." Did she? Find such a friend?

This journal is such an important part in her "therapy"...Marvelle, Carolyn, the glosses as her own assessment of her mental state, after she reviews what she has written...this makes a lot of sense to me. SHe is playing the part of a "therapist", analysing what she has just confided to the journal - therefore the third person gloss. I find this a very healthy process. I too, would advise her to continue. She is learning who she is...I don't think this is the time to be visiting with old friends...or even communicating with the daughters. "She" still has work to do - she has to find out who she is before she can repair past relationships.

At the same time, do you get the feeling that she is waiting for something to happen to her? As if a power outside of herself will decide her fate...the gods perhaps?

Joan, did the therapist of your friend recommend a good lawyer to her along with the advice to find one? I doubt it. Good lawyers who will really help a woman in a divorce settlement can be few and far between, especially when the husband involved has a good job, position in society and some money, as Andrew in the book does. Invariably the woman ends up in the way the narrator here has, with a small settlement and a minimal amount of alimony.

Mal

Joan Pearson -- I agree with every word you say about Candida. The further through the book we read, the easier it is to understand why Isaiah Berlin said he thought wisdom was simply being able to cope. Without money, guidance, a friendly hand or anybody's approval, this woman pulled herself together & built a new life. Her marriage to a 'good man', who was capable of inflicting social sadism on his blameless wife at the dinner table, would be capable of similar drip/drip/drip of domestic cruelty that is poisonous & vile. Candida suddenly seems modest & uncomplicated - it's no wonder the complaining tone in her journal surprised her. The 'appearances' that were maintained - (always needing to appear richer than they were)- would have been at Candida's expense, but she probably never noticed.

'Wishing to die' like the Sybil, suggests it was more likely the death of the marriage that she wished for? She knew she couldn't support herself - the very worst that could happen if she bolted, would be the ostracism of her family. She got that anyway. The little side-headings, ('glosses'? - thankyou for that!)are exactly as you say - part of her self-analysis. Fortunately, she became used to solitude & was able to take on the shape of her own personality, which was very much more attractive than she'd been led to believe. Rather like a hermit crab between shells - looking for a better fit - but extremely vulnerable. It's beautifully subtle.

Mmmm! Lots to think about and everyone has valid points. I still think the severed connection with her children is affecting her terribly even more than the break up of her marriage. The things she says about them she is hitting back,becoming angry at the desertion and lack of support,when really she is heartbroken and so very very hurt!When we are hurt we often react by hitting back.

Carolyn

Marvelle, Joan, Viogert- Thanks to you all for your insights. I'm still dripping with blood in Book 10... Mercy! Violence is not new!!.. So will take your insights and mull them over with today's reading. Ginny, I'm depending on you to help me fit all this together. Lou

I don't know why I thought the Virgil study group the narrator was in was reading the Aeneid in Latin. To me, the important parts of the Aeneid for her are the ones she mentions, like Book Six.

In my mind, her need to see the Sibyl "and hear my endless fate" is a death wish for the person she had been. I truly believe she wants to start her life anew without the baggage of the past and her past self like an albatross around her neck.

Page 48: "Sometimes I think it could all have been quite different. I find it hard to believe that this is the bleak-set pattern that I must live and die within."

To me the analyses of her family and the relationships she had show that she craves change, a real release from the rôle she played for so long and the treatment she received from others.

I still do not see the anger mentioned here. What she says about the adults in her past and her children are more realistic than angry in my eyes. I think from a distance she is able to see all of them and herself in a much more detached way than she ever could before. Page 49: I did not think to blame Andrew for my shortcomings. I do not blame him now. But it is so hard to live in such a cold light. There is no profit in such self-doubt. It is too late for regret and remorse." That would include regret and remorse about her children.

Unlike Carolyn, I don't think she's heartbroken and hurt about them. I think quite possibly she's heartbroken about herself and the years she spent being the person she was forced to be and wants to be rid of. She wants to embark on a journey like the one Aeneas took; to see new things and to see herself in their reflection. She's already found some through the Virgil group; Anais is one. Mrs. Jerrold is another. As I said, her vista has opened wide. What she needs is to act on what she sees in this new landscape, go on that journey to Carthage and Naples. Hard to do without money, though.

Marvelle made an interesting comparison between dreadlocks and the Medusa, which never had occurred to me, but then I had not realized either that Haile Selassie was known as Ras Tafari (Prince to be feared). When I was a child, the few black girls who were in the grammar school where I went wore their hair in masses of tiny braids -- dreadlocks. That seemed natural to me, and I envied the hair they had. Mine wouldn't cooperate in that way. Talk in my family about Haile Selassie goes way back in my childhood, too. Marvelle's comments made me remember these things.

Mal

Sorry I've had a lot going on here today and will be probably several more hours getting to each of your points, but you have offered, all of you, some super ideas!! Many thanks!

I’ve really enjoyed all your posts and points and before I get to them let’s summarize by saying that it appears we’re in several camps as regards our thoughts on the Narrator, and that’s good, that allows for examination of the character and the book with open minds.

It appears we’re also of several minds regarding who wrote the “gloss” which you see referred to in Question 3 in the heading or Greek Chorus or sidebar. I am impressed with your arguments as to the Narrator’s writing them herself, perhaps as she returns and does some introspection, I like that. In fact it’s making me waver because I thought I heard the voice of the author there so again (the third person there being the sticking point) I’m going to reserve judgment, but you do make sense, even tho it does not make sense to me for her to view herself in the 3rd person, she doesn’t when she reflects on her being shocked at her previous whining tone?

Joan P brought up something I thought was interesting. On page 13, CW relates the story of the Sibyl and how she hung in a basket and the “only thing she said when questioned was ‘I wish to die.’ Or so they say. I’d like to hear her say that to me.”

I wondered about that too, I wonder what was meant. I like your suggestions but am not sure they fit with my preconceptions of the Sibyl?

Why would a person say that she wants to hear the Sibyl who is not there anymore say she wants to die?

The Sibyl was a prophetess of things to come, an augurer. There were several Sibyls often confused with the original one , Herophile, the Ertyhraean Sibyl (often identified with the Cumean Sibyl).

When Apollo told her to choose a gift, she asked to live as many years as she held grains of sand in her hand, but she omitted to ask for continued youth.

So she, hung up in a jar not a basket, according to Petronius, said I wish to die.” I think anybody can see why? What does it mean that Narrator wants to hear that said to her?

That’s a puzzle!

On the connection between the Aeneid and Seven Sisters, it would seem there are more similarities than we thought? In the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature:

The episode of Aeneas and Dido [in the Aeneid] has been the subject of the most frequent censure. It is out of harmony with our ideas of right and wrong that Dido, deserted by Aeneas, should perish, while Aeneas goes shabbily away scot-free….

So in the Aeneid, Aeneas gets away with his shabby alienation of affection and Dido, whom Virgil especially creates sympathy for, perishes. But our protagonist has not perished, right?

And our protagonist would like to hear the Sibyl, whose job was to prophesy the future, say, because she had the gift of long life without youth, “I wish to die.”

Hmmmm Does that have any meaning or is it a sidetrack?

Lots and lots of sidetracks but as Lou2 says, we’ll figure it out, together!! (You scare me, Lou2, when you say you’ve read it and still don’t know what it’s about because you seem pretty darn perceptive to me!)

I thought the purpose of the Greek Chorus was to explain what was going on, nothing more, am I wrong? I am really not sure about that but I thought it pertained to all theater, not just special epics, or "great" works, but Greek Theater is not my thing.

More….

ginny

Have been thinking about the bolding of the daughters' names. Can picture the narrator rereading what she has written and tracing over these names with her pencil, or pen as she thinks of them - so that they appear bold in her journal. What do you think?

Ginny, great information on the Sibyl...but still not sure why it is that our narrator wants to hear the words "I want to die" from the Sibyl's lips directed to herself. Need to think about that some more. Not sure if I agree with Mal that she wants her old self to die...but that's something to think about too...

The words are suicidal aren't they? And there is Jane's suicide as yet unexplained. Is there a connection?

ps. Ginny, maybe the gloss was NOT intended as a Greek chorus, but only appeared that way afterwards...or something. hahahaaha, maybe, maybe, maybe...wish Margaret D. would get herself in here and explain herself!

Perhaps when we have finished we could invite Margaret Drabble to comment? I have written to authors before and to my surprise got personal replies!

Golly some of you are so scholarly you make me feel very inadequate! I feel so dumb!

Carolyn

You're not alone, Carolyn. Let's go write a book!

Oh, yes. Does anyone here see a similarity in the names, "Aeneas" and "Anais"? Or is it just me?

Mal

I've been thinking there has to be something/somewhere to explain this book... but I think Joan has the answer:

...wish Margaret D. would get herself in here and explain herself!

Oh, Carolyn, me thinks we are in the presence of greatness here!!

Golly some of you are so scholarly you make me feel very inadequate! I feel so dumb!..... AMEN!!!

Mal, No... but now that you mention it.... Does anyone here see a similarity in the names "Aeneas" and "Anais"? Or is it just me?

OK... this is a book... I've been reading for umteumph years and I can do this... I can understand this book... One more re-read!!!

Lou

I don't know where the scholarly thing is coming from but I don't think it takes a scholar to look up something in a book and type it here, if it does then we're all scholars, don't any of you call yourselves DUMB!

I forbid it!

hahahaha

Yes we do need Margaret Drabble in here, I did ask somebody about writing her earlier, I did write Kazuo Ishiguro but have not heard yet, would one of you like to try your hand? I'd LOVE to ask her some questions!

Here's where I am on this book so far?

We all know the basic facts, right? We know this is a divorcee, done wrong, estranged from her children, afraid to get too close to her mother, her old friends, gone off to the big city to live, brave daring, a new life?

Am I right?

She's writing a diary or journal, she's trying to sort out her life, she's grieving, I myself for my own part see great anger, some fear, it's good writing but SOME of the elements stick out, those which we don't understand, those which interfere.

Carolyn how can you call yourself dumb, you're the ONLY one who spoke of her being whole and needing to connect with her children to be so? I think you are totally right on and that was extremely astute!

Lou2, you are savvy enough to realize something else is going on here than the basic he done her wrong she'll survive story (or so I think) well done.

Malryn, I don't think a dummy would have made the connection between Aeneas and Anais, (what do you think that means?)

So let's go boldly on where no man has ever gone before: into the land of let's figure out the strange stuff in this thing and figure out what it means, if we can (isn't it a super choice for a discussion??!!??)

back in a mo with Pedln!

ginny

I really enjoyed the different advice you all thought you’d give our narrator if you thought she needed any, I think it’s a shame she can’t have you all for friends.

I think I would tell her to stop being so judgmental and critical of everybody, it’s a mindset, that, and to be grateful for what she does have. Nobody has everything.

She has her health, she has her mind, and she apparently has enough gumption to try a new life, she feels power, I don’t understand why she thinks of and treats her former friends, children, mother and…well everybody in her old life like she does.

And as Marvelle suggested earlier I’m going to watch the side bars, too. WILL they change? (Marvele, those were some great parallels in the Aeneid and this book, great job, also loved your epxlanations of how she uses the diary to see herself and grow).

Anyway, PEDLN, I apologize for leaving off your “one word’s, I knew that heading was short and Jane mentioned it to me, so sorry, and will put them in the heading immediately!!

Know what I’ve been thinking? I’ve been wondering if she met US, YOU, what or how she’d treat US? What she'd think of us?

I’ve been wondering, of all the new and strange characters Malryn mentioned that the author introduced in this section, if she is accepting of any of them? (See below for one!) Did you all notice? Are there any of them she finds acceptable? Anais or however it’s spelled because with her our narrator is a different person? Let’s look at each of the new characters tomorrow, if you’d like (I’m only suggesting topics in the absence of any from the floor, PLEASE feel free to suggest some??)

You really could go on and on about what IS friendship what it means if you wanted to. Does this woman seem to have any real friends? I thought friendship was a give and take proposition?

Malryn, no I have not mentioned Schadenfreude, except to ask for a definition? I did not know what it meant.

Pedln, I thought this was very sharp:

The London move -- She did something totally new and unexpected for her, but was it more in desperation and was she naive? I doubt she talked with anyone or sought advice from others.

WELL said, I bet she did not either, who did she have to talk to? Good point! I kind of got the impression that she moved because she didn’t want to hear “THEM” talking about her? And later she mentions that Andrew and his new wife are accepted everywhere but when they see her “the passivity of my self-pity made an ugly martyr of me. People turned away at my approach.” And I’m not sure that her move was entirely all positive, either?

What do you all think?

Pedln, what did you mean here?

It boggles my mind that a woman approaching 60 would invest her limited funds in a 3rd-floor walkup.

I was thinking that she was just renting, I don’t know why, where did I get that idea, I need to go back and look again.

Did you all find that the book was sort of slow to read or did you just whip thru it, by the way? It took me forever and I’m very fast in reading normally, I’m not sure why that was, actually,

I’m glad you asked about Wormwood Scrubs, Lou2, because I didn’t know either, and thank you Viogert for that response, it’s good to have you in the discussion, not only are you a dyed in the wool CW Champion you know things we don’t.

PLUS you may have suggested the most exciting book to discuss we’ve ever had, you have to feel good about that!

Carolyn, you mentioned something interesting:

I can understand Candida's reserve which is appropriate to her generation and the way she was brought up.

Do you think that reserve would extend to a diary or would a….and I’m trying to think of her…the instances where we have seen her interacting, IS she reserved or, I know she’s sort of passive aggressive, but is she reserved, do we know?

Do you all have a clear picture of her in your mind? Can you picture her coming down the street and how would she act if you met her in a health center, do you think? Or a Virgil class??

I thought this was a good point, Malryn<

I think water is important: the Aeneid voyage from Carthage to Naples, for example -- the lake . . . what's its name? where the underworld is. Along with this facing of mortality comes the knowledge that she herself has the choice whether to live or to die.

Do you mean the River Styx?

Good point on the possible importance of water in the piece.

On page 64, our narrator meets the “elegant young man with dreadlocks who lives under the bridge.”

She used to be afraid of him. But she, and I thought this was interesting, said this, “My face must have been open, not shut.”

So he spoke to her, and then she answered and inquired about his comfort on his foam bedding, gave him two coins and “I am glad he spoke to me.”

But she was glad to see the back of Sally.

OOpsie, look look, Malryn mentioned this earlier and it really grabs me now that we've begun discussing it: in looking up how she treats her friends and the strange neighborhood people I found this:

I would like to visit the Sibyl at Cumae and hear my endless fate. But not with Sally Hepburn.

My endless fate? “I wish to die," as Joan P points out, spoken by the Sibyl OF the Sibyl? Huh? My endless fate?

HUH?

I am, frankly, lost here, do any of you …endless fate? I almost feel as if it’s a symantics problem. What do you make of that passage?

And by the way, Question 10 in the heading is a quote almost right before this passage, and I am not clear on what she means there either, why does she feel a powerful need to betray herself to Sally?

It’s fairly clear after Sally leaves, that our narrator was worried about what she would tell the folks back home about how narrator was getting on, do you think that maybe FEAR is a part of CW’s personality too? I woke up this morning and realized the remark about her mother, at least, was fear. She’s afraid that her mother (old and ill as she is) will “suck me in.”

GOSH don't you feel sorry for this conflicted unhappy person!

ginny

I'm just catching up after a few days offline. I get to pick up my copy again at the Library tomorrow so I can reread the section we're discussing.

I've enjoyed reading all the posts immensely! You've all given me lots of things to think about.

Ginny: Yes, I found it very slow reading.

Lake Avernus, Ginny. Below is a link to a painting of it by Joseph Turner.

Aeneas and the Sibyl at Lake Avernus by Turner

Oh, my goodness, look what I found. The link below takes you to a synopsis of Book Six of the Aeneid and other Greek myths which is illustrated by classical paintings, vases, and paintings like the Turner above. I think it's a treasure.

Illustrated Synopsis Book Six, Aeneid, and more

Suggesting we write to Margaret Drabble to explain herself, would reflect on us badly - especially when we are only half way through her book.

The answers to questions about Sibyl are given in a later chapter. If it adds to the understanding, the Sibyl answers: "This is the last height. Submit". But Candida knew it wasn't, & refused.

The explanation for Candida's attitude to two of her daughters is simply incompatibility. It is obvious Candida is analytical & cool -& that against her will, she finds the two self-dramatising daughters - from whom she is alientated - vain, self-serving & shallow. Ellen is cool like her mother; it explains the simplicity of their rapport, & why she moved so far from Suffolk.

It is important to pay attention to Candida's references to some of her friends being 'ladies'. This is an archaic value judgement of the highest order. Ladies are clean & decent - they are considerate, truthful & well-mannered. They are never uncharitable about others. No lady would embarrass others by being tactless. The vulgarity of petit-bourgeois neighbourhood gossip is its opposite.

The problem Candida has with gossip is its reciprocal nature. Apart from denigrating herself, she had nothing to offer Sally in return for rumour, uncharitable speculation & schadenfreude. Gossip is like telling jokes. They tell you one; you must tell them one. In this light, Anais - & the rest of the Virgil group - are in their differing ways, 'ladies'.

'Her Diary', (as Part One is entitled) is riddled with guilt - principally due what she perceives as unladylike behaviour -'eavesdropping' in the Health Club & finding the 'bleating, whining, resentful, martyred tone' she had written. Why does it surpise her if she presumed she HADN'T been smouldering with bile the last two years? However stoic & enduring we are under ill-treatment - personal standards would be maintained by a decent woman - even in solitude. But Candida is human & out it all pours as she writes - all the criticism & hurt that she would never tell a friend, goes into her laptop. This is the opposite of 'letting it all hang out' - employing a shrink - or whingeing to friends. Bottling it up IS an option. Eventually - when we are used to the grief & the disappointment, they leak out of the cracks & drain into the earth where they do no harm. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". The first chapters of "Seven Sisters" are the leakage of an essentially good & optimistic woman, who is begining to realise her horrible marriage has miraculaously come unglued at last.

Drabble has rounded up names & references to the era of their studies - I suppose - simply to keep the familiarity of the subject on the boil. Plieades, people enacting the seven deadly sins, General Hamilcar Barcus of Carthage, the district of London called Seven Sisters - I assumed we'd hear Purcell's aria "Remember Me" sung by Jessye Norman - anything is possible. It's not to mystify us - I thought it was to reasure us we were on course?

"Remember Me" is an aria from Henry Purcell's opera, "Dido and Aeneas". If you click that link you'll find the libretto as written by Nahum Tate.

My first thought after reading Viogert's post was that if Nameless had not been such a lady, she might not have found herself in such a mess; she'd have told her husband off, and then some. It seems to me that her married life was full of bile. Often it is only when you get away from it that you can get rid of it, as Nameless is working hard to do.

If Nameless met me, she would not call me a lady. I do not indulge in malicious or much of any gossip; I do not talk with my mouth full or drink half of my hostess's bottle of wine, but I do let a lot of things "hang out."

Fear. I'd be afraid to encounter some of the things and people the narrator meets on her way to and from the Health Club. I'd be anxious (and was) going off on my own where I knew no one and had few resources. Other fears Nameless has, like being sucked in by her mother, are the result of her thinking her new-found identity is threatened. I would not call her a fearful person; I'd call her strong, and I do not pity her or feel sorry for her. What she's has done and is doing takes great strength, and should be admired, in my opinion.

If I'd gone back one page on the site I posted last night I'd have found that it is titled Aeneas in the Underworld. I've thought about Nameless in the Underworld. There's the choice she made of where to live in London. There are the characters she meets on the street. There is the fact that she chose to volunteer to talk to a murderer in a prison. There is her dwelling on that murderer's victim and the suicide of Anthea's daughter. There is even her wanting to meet the Sibyl.

What does the view of the gray dove through the distorted window glass mean?

Mal

In Edit:

Malryn, we were posting together, great points on the underworld and her own neighborhood, I see paralells, too: see below.

Oh FABULOUS splendid post, viogert, and thank you for mentioning another seven reference, I've just found a stuning one myself so have put the question of how many times do we see the word seven in this thing in the heading. We might want to keep a list of them, Also thanks for that bit about the laptop!!

Joan P, I thought your idea on her having written over and over over her daughter's names was teriffic, and worried half the night over the fact we're not looking at a facsimile, but if it’s a laptop (which I seem to have missed) then I guess that overwriting wouldn’t compute, so what does it mean?

Viogert, that’s another good point on the way she looks at those around her, the “Ladies” references. I think I’d like to get some of these things we’re looking at in the heading so we can keep on noticing, thank you for adding that to the list of how she perceives others.

I thought your reasoning was beautifully expressed, and I think we ARE on course, in spades ,but we do really NEED to LOOK at each of these references. If we turn the page and a space ship lands and she’s impregnated, I want to at least stop and wonder why and what it might mean to the story.

I thought you made a great point on how she says in her diary what she might not in person, and it makes an interesting parallel to what we’re doing here?

When you read alone and the spaceship stops and the aliens get out you pause and you wonder, in your own mind.

Here we, reading as One Giant Brain, also want the delicious luxury of pausing and wondering, but ALOUD?

We’re not presenting final papers here, not yet, we’re reading together, out loud, as one giant brain. It’s ok to be puzzled and to express confusion here in public , and it’s ok to have your own answers, too, loved yours.

Thank you for the Sibyl references at the end, I’m sure when we get there that will explain a lot of things (but of course it just confuses me more, see why below) haahahah

I read in print last night an article I had saved from the New York Times by Brooke Allen you so kindly brought here, linked in the heading, and it seems to imply she’s mirroring life at whatever stage she finds herself, as well as reflecting the English society particularly she finds her self in at the time. I liked this phrase, “the chill irresolution and moral uncertainty of middle age within a national context that was also irresolute and uncertain: Drabble’s characters have always, to some degree, been emblematic of the state of the nation.” I gather from this article that Drablle is writing about, in some part, her own self, was that the way you all saw it? It’s linked in the heading.

The article also says, “Her alienation from her daughters is not quite normal.”

I also note the article promises a change in the character, actually saying that the reader “early in the novel the reader might be tempted to agree with Candida’s own appraisal of herself as ‘whining, resentful , martyr,” apparently some change is forthcoming??

We’re definitely on course, then, and if we don’t pay attention to her NOW and how she acts and what she does, we’ll not see any change in her at the end? And we won’t appreciate it when we do.

Viogert, if the only reason Drabble has sprinkled references about like dandruff is to keep the famiarity of the subject on the boil, I'm going to be very disappointed with the author.

Would any of you happen to know as Joan P asked earlier, if Drabble’s own children are alienated from her? I’m asking if this is fiction or autobiography, I guess, there’s a lot of hurt here that you might say is genius if invented and maybe not if real, see what I mean?

Well done, Malryn, on Lake Avernus! The wonderful (and it is) picture trip to Hades was submitted earlier by Marvelle, but it’s definitely worth a second look, I love it.

I actually have been to Lake Avernus (what good is it to travel when you forget the name three days later?) and since it appears that our heroine is actually making a trip to see the Sibyl’s cave later on in the book, I won’t spoil it by saying what they tell you when you get there.

I am amazed at all the tours operating to Cumae, to hope to actually SEE the Cave of the old legendary (or one of them) Sibyl. Look them up on google, if you like it's astounding. Wonder if Drabble took one? There are whole societies, the Vergilian Society for one (who spell VERGIL VERGIL, love it love it love it, I will NEVER again change it to Virgil) and who sponsor trips and study groups there, some of the prose is REALLY unreal:

Walk where Aeneas walked!! Visit the cave of the Sibyl! Travel the 380 feet (or whever it was) to the Underworld!

Kind of reminds you of visiting 221B Baker Street. Pretty darn good for a poem whose author composed it in the last 11 years of his life (30-19 BC) and who, as he lay dying, asked to have it destroyed. But it was vitally important to the Romans, because it formed their missing link in history, they needed to be related to Aeneas, whose mother, after all, was a god.

Our narrator is somewhat like Aeneas , too, in his wanderings, I guess, he was blindsided after living what he thought was a blameless life by the whims of an angry god(dess) and had to wander, beset with strange new persons and new locations, and struggle to make his way. Maybe CW identifies more with him than Dido, actually, what do you think?

Putting up some new focus points in the heading, you guys tear thru them like water thru a sieve and it’s only the 4th day! Hahahaha

ginny

Wow!! Love the new Welcome to Lit site!!! Great job! Please pass this on to the appropriate person!

Lou

Thanks, Fellow "Discutees" or whatever the term is for others sharing their ideas with one another, for your perspectives.

Question: Do we know the time frame here...year-wise, I mean? Are we in the 1990's or the 1970's or ? I seem to think that the "Lady" part and the reaction (i.e, non reaction) of a wife to being publicly put down before guests by Perfect Andrew is something that would have happened more likely a few years ago, or to women who married young and went from under Daddy's house and control to Husband's house and control.

Those of us who didn't follow that pattern (and maybe I'm the only one here who didn't) would not have let Perfect Andrew get away with that. He'd either have "benefited from a discussion"...[although probably one sided!;0)] when the guests were gone (if the wife were feeling particularly kind and sensitive) or would have been answered in kind right then and there--in the famous "what's good for the goose," tradition.

Back to the question of her moving. I think it's an admirable thing she had the gumption/backbone/desire to get the heck away from the Perfect Andrew and new wife "theater" where people may not have ever let her forget Andrew dumped her for a new wife. Having that forced down one's throat every day cannot be pleasant. I thought that showed strength and a desire to get on with her life on her terms, although she may not yet have that all sorted out, given the things she's written of the last two years since the move.

Ha ha, Jane, for "Discutees". Well, it's not quite "Disgustees", is it?

Talk about embarrassing yourself in public! I'm sorry, Marvelle. I missed your wonderful link to the Aeneas Underworld. If I had seen it, though, I'd have kept myself from the excitement of finding that site myself.

Mal

No, no, Mal...never disgustees! LOL

How agout De Gustibustees? hahaahah

I like that.

Lou2, that heading and the cute slogan are the work of Joan Grimes, we'll tell her you liked it, thank you for noticing.

Just breezing in, more later on on your super submissions, to say here are the latest 5 questions this morning just added to the heading above and NOW I'm going to have to tear self screaming away and go get some breakfast, it's 10:18, and caffeine calls.

Addictive, this really is!

For Your Consideration:

Week I:

Pages 1-86:

12. How many references are there mentioned in this book to the word Seven?

Seven Sisters constellation
District of London called Seven Sisters(Viogert)

13. The narrator's new world contains some fairly exotic characters (page 64 ff). The "elegant young man with dreadlocks," the "man with the crucifix," and others. What do these characters represent to the narrator and why do you think the author included them in the story?

14. What does the view of the gray dove through the distorted window glass mean? (page 62) (Malryn)

A reference to the birdless Lake Avernus follows, does that have any connection?

15. The concept of being a "lady" is an old one.

Is it outdated in 2003?

What is YOUR concept of a lady?

Why do you think the narrator brings it up now and what is it in reference to? (taken from a point by Viogert)

16. Drabble mentions the story of the golden bough, found in Book VI of the Aeneid. Are there any parallels the author makes to what might symbolize the narrators own "golden bough?" as she crosses "the threshold into my own life?"

17. Do we know the time frame here...year-wise? Are we in the 1990's or the 1970's or ? (Jane)

So much going on here, and I am getting lost. Need to read more on the Aeneid sites, but don't have time. Need to reread posts and parts of book.

What's a lady? -- Ladies are passive and don't make waves. Ladies try to meet others conceptions of who they should be.
2003 -- Ladies are out, class is in.

Jane, your comment about slow-going; not compared to Drabble's "Peppered Moth," c2001. That wanders all over and I'm still not sure of the focus.

Which brings me back to the "sidebars." I think they might be Drabble's voice, her way of keeping herself out of the narration. In her "PM" she insinuates herself into the writing so much that one expects her to say, "And now, dear reader." For example --"Will Bessie grow a third eye. See her turn the corner. Where is Joe all this time?"

Ginny, P. 45 describes Narrator's buying the flat -- she bought direct from the seller and avoided commission.

Question 14: Distorted dove. What about the two doves that led Aeneas to the Golden Bough? Does this have anything to do with that? That sounds funny, and made me laugh.

Mal

You can still be a lady and have class. A matron from one of our very classy suburbs told me at a party we both attended that my daughters were ladies. My daughters are very open but they are also ladylike in their behaviour. Ladies with class are still admired here. However the term Lady does not mean nowdays that one becomes a doormat!

I have more to say but no time- be back later on! They are aerial spraying today so I may have to vacate if they do my suburb in the hottest part of the day!

Carolyn

Had to pop back and comment. I still think Mal she is suffering from not having a comfortable relationship with her children. I know the relationship I have nurtured in the past few years and continue to nurture with my children is very satisfying to me. I love having my kids as friends. However I can be detached and know like me they have their faults. I have one son who is a snob! However he loves me to bits and although I would rather have a bit more emotional support from him at times he would never let me do without anything I needed and he always comes to me when he is upset about anything! We always say ----------would not be at the hospital bedside (he would not handle that) instead he would be running round with his cheque book paying all the expenses! He is very soft in that way and maybe that is how he shows his love! I have a gut feeling that at the end of the day Candida will reconcile with her family and it will be very healing! I am speaking of Candida as a real person here!

Carolyn

But what does that mean . . . . "Ladies are out, class is in"? There are several different meanings for "class".

Mal

What are you talking about, Carolyn? I have a wonderful relationship with my children. The only trouble is that my sons live 500 miles away from where I live, one north and one south. It's hard to get together since I can't travel much now, and my sons have obligations like job and family for one and a disability for the other. My daughter and I are best friends, for heaven's sake, and have been for years.

I see my kids as adult people I like and admire, not as faultless babies I adore. As adults, they have faults; so do I, and we're not reluctant to admit it. Our motto as adults is "Live and let live", and that is the same as we are with our friends.

Mal

Mal you read my post wrong I am referring to Candida! Good heavens! I should have said Candida- not she! I am not referring to anyone other than my experience and how I feel about Candida!

Carolyn

Slow Read??? Are you kidding? I raced through this thing like I had good sense!! Boy, am I paying for that one!! Don’t worry… I have repented for considering this a “normal” read! Could explain why I don’t know what it’s about, huh???? LOL

I’ve wondered about all the “things” she doesn’t know.. What is it? Where do I get it? Song Walkman, p4 and 5, Lottery ticket, p62,77; ionized, p4, Reiki, aromatherapy, yoga, shiatsu, p6. Those are the ones I’ve identified so far… Expressions of her lack of confidence? Finding her path? Just I don't know???

Who mentioned suspicion about Andrew and their girls? What about narrator not getting paid to sub at school? What about Mlle Fournier going back to France “in something of a hurry”p.75? Jane “always talk about a love affair gone wrong”, “Sally tried to hint that Jane might have thought she was pregnant….”, p76 Didn’t she also sub another time when someone was ill? Would it be “unladylike” to wonder about Andrew here????

As I read, mental images build. There’s one I’m having a hard time visualizing. When she is walking in her neighborhood, she goes under the railway and the motorway… Are these tunnels? Or are the railway and motorway raised and she’s walking at street level? Small thing but driving me crazy.

OK… all my small stuff. Marvel, thanks so much for #66.. I’ve read and re-read it along with re-reading sections of the book with your thoughts in mind. I’m not there yet, but you have made it a lot clearer. Jane, I did go from Daddy’s house to Hubby’s house, but never would Hubby pull Andrew’s stunt at the dinner table!! Ginny, what is narrator like? Reserved? “Stiff upper lip” keeps popping into my mind, while inside she’s in turmoil… Is that kind of a definition of reserved?

Book 11 and finally I'm getting into Vergil's (That's for you Ginny!!) groove... actually understanding without re-reading and looking at the guide!! There's hope for me yet...

Lou

Lou: I read her going under the motorway and under the railroad to mean they were elevated and she was at street level.

I was going to post about some of the things Nameless Narrator meets in her new surroundings, but I think Marvelle has pretty much covered all that. What I'd like to do is try to see this person as an ordinary woman who happened to read the Aeneid when she was in school and is reading it again as an adult.

Sheltered in Suffolk and smothered by her husband, of course she wouldn't know things like aromatherapy, Sony Walkman, shiatsu. I never heard of shiatsu and aromatherapy until I moved alone to Florida early in the 80's.

I remember spending time in a two bit health food store in St. Augustine, where I lived on Anastasia Island just over the Bridge of Lions, looking at all those New Age things and thinking about how they related to my life. Crystals -- I'm surprised she didn't mention those. How would I (or Nameless) know about these things, zipped up tight as we had been in our husband-lawmaker-boundaried lives?

She notes that there is a difference in Blacks, which Marvelle has already mentioned. Why shouldn't there be, really? And why didn't we think of that before?

Age. The elderly, "but not old" woman on the Tube with the legs, slim and hideously scarred, and "toffee-tinted plastic shoes with high heels, curiously elegant". What did that say to her?

I see a woman who has gone into foreign territory where lumpen boys sing, "Jim, Jim, Jim Jiminy, Jim Jim Jeroo. I've washed all the dishes and I've fuckall to do", and takes it to heart. Strange this new world is, and it reminds me of wandering in New York City and other places I've wandered alone in the U.S., England and Europe before and after my marriage came to an end.

The Aeneid rings like a mantra in this alienated woman's head. It's something familiar to cling to, a guide in a way.

Mal

As in writing a story, if the commas, periods and capital letters aren't there, it's pretty hard to communicate what you want to say to someone else.

Mal

The roads can run overhead over other roads and yes, there is like a tunnel underneath which is which is what Candida is referring to. I was brought up in the city until I was five years old when I moved to a tiny seaside suburb I felt different too. The kids wore bare feet and our feet always had covering on the hot city pavements. I was taken aback by the casual dress too! No pretty frilly frocks for school- shorts and thongs! Now it is the opposite. Hate the city- the noise- the crowds although now the city has encroached on my suburb and the vineyards and orchards have gone I have my own oasis. Trees, birds and big high gates! I can pretend I am in the country when I am out in the back yard!

I think Candida chose to go to the city to make a complete break. To live an entirely different life and perhaps subconsciously to enjoy the feeling of being surrounded by people but to be safely anonymous as she did not have to form any intimate friendships amongst her neighbours. As we read on at first she rebuffs any overtures of friendship. I feel however in a perverse way she did miss her friends however much she criticises them at first. If she had no wish to keep any friendships she could easily have rebuffed her social worker friend when she asked to visit.

Thinking about her criticism of others. When my self esteem was at its lowest I became the most judgemental of people. If I was worrying about what others were doing or how they lived I could evade my own issues. Its a very common human failing! Gosh I was such a prig! I don't like that person who inhabited my body for a number of years at all! I have high standards for myself but I am a lot more understanding and forgiving of others now.

Carolyn

Sorry Mal I was watching the planes and trying to get posted in a hurry in case I had to leave. I knew what I was saying but yes you are right, the post was very loose and lacking in punctuation.Do you get what I was trying to say now!

Carolyn

My power went off yesterday due to strong winds here in New Mexico. Will try to read all the messages and then make a real post. Mal, your link in message 85 is one I'd already posted and it's in the heading as two Picture Stories. The pertinent ones are the ones with Dido and then the Underworld. I guess great minds think alike!

Marvelle

Glad you have your power back, Marvelle. You just paid me a fine compliment. Thank you.

Mal

Whew, I just finished reading all the posts and now I'm caught up except that I have to assimilate all the wonderful insights. Ginny, don't worry. The allusions that are being dropped left and right in "Seven Sisters" do mean something and not just with the Virgil allusions.

Did you-all know that Sibyl in Greek means "God's will"? Holy cow that strikes me as significant especially if you link God's will with the epigraph to the novel which is part of Luke 12. And also with the myth of the Sibyl (for that myth see the last link in this post at the end). What do you make of it? Doesn't that say something about the narrator's 'endless fate'? Here is the site where I found that eye-popping definition and more:

Sibyl & God's Will

The site might be hard to read -- at least it was for my eyes -- so this is another tidbit from there that I found interesting:

Virgil who was "solicitous of providing by all means for the common good, arranged in the area of Baia and Pozzuoli, the building of public baths, efficiacious for all diseases and adorned them with plaster images representing the various forms of illnesses..." (Hope I quoted properly.) That is perhaps the connection between the Health Club and the Pompeii Baths link in the heading.

Please, if you are interested in the Sibyl, take a look at the Cumaean Sibyl link in the headings. I love that link. Ginny, talk about taking a tour! With this link you take the Grand Tour from your living room. First, I love the music and thought of Mal when I heard it. Then the link walks you into the cave and then the immediate surroundings. Lots to see including Lake Avernus which is only steps away from the cave. Another link in the heading which might now interest you-all is the Phelegrean Fields and seeing the geysers of sulphur rising up from the ground. Again, these places are all close together.

Given eternal life the Sibyl did not need to eat or drink to survive but without that nourishment she shriveled and shriveled over the decades until she was so tiny that she could be placed in a jar tied to a tree limb. Read how she got into that predicament and much more about her in:

The Myth of Sibyl

Marvelle

I had to correct the links which now can be opened.

I re-read the posts to sort out comments and I realized that Viogert had thoughts about what happens later in the book regarding the Sibyl. Can we agree to disagree? I think there is more going on underneath the surface of the storyline yet I'm not ready to attempt a definitive answer about the Sibyl at this early stage. I can only add background on the Sibyl to mull over as the discussion progresses. I've noted down Viogert's thoughts on the Sibyl to mull over as well. Thanks, Viogert.

Kiwi Carolyn, your sentences are fine; just a momentary confusion. As Ginny would say, none of us are writing a doctoral thesis here. Your thoughts are brilliant.

Lou, you're in the Virgil groove? Wow!

I agree with Ann that a lady tries to meet the expectations of others and is passive. The passive-aggressive behavior comes out due to stress and unhappiness. A lady is required by society to have two sides to her -- one public and and the other private. She needn't be decent so long as she's publicly well-mannered. She is rarely truthful as truth often can hurt someone and that isn't being well-mannered. So she bottles up her real feelings and thoughts. A lady follows the social rules and is quiet and self-effacing. She's obedient to society's expectations even if she seethes inside.

I think that's why the narrator had to answer friend Sally's questions. Under the rules, a lady responds when questioned especially if the questionner is in a semi-official/officious capacity like social worker Sally. Sally could be seen by a lady as a minor Authority Figure? A lady is never 'rude' enough to say no to questioning unless the request is for unlady-like behavior. Weren't most of us raised this way? And didn't we, sooner or later, find the cost of being a lady too dear? The narrator has to re-make herself.

We have a lot of different definitions for lady. I was raised in a restrictive culture so my feelings about being a 'lady' are not positive. Ladie (good women) did not even sit down at the dinner table with men!

Pat, do you have a copy of "Seven Sisters" now? There's still plenty of time to read the book and plenty of room at the virtual roundtable so please join in.

Marvelle

Thank goodness my foster parents never tried to make me a lady. All they wanted was for me to be a star. ( I was on the stage for the first time at the age of five. )

My husband-to-be fell head over heels with the star I had become at age seventeen. After we were married, he did everything he could to make me a lady. Woe was I.

Mal

I suspect everybody confuses 'lady' with the pretentious 'ladylike' which is the definition of women who are not the genuine article - but pretend to be.

The use of the word 'lady' went out of fashion in England after WWII - along with cut-glass accents like Our Dear Queen's. Probably what Candida meant by the word, were the Seven Heavenly Virtues, that describe her (& her friends) quite well.

Fortitude - Charity - Prudence - Hope - Temperence - Justice - Faith

Marvelle - I agree , there are many different definitions of a lady. Same thing with the term, "broad." Good connotations and not so good. As soon as C. referred to Anais as a real "lady" I began to rethink my own understanding of the word. Mine would have (and probably still does) included Candida as a lady, although she claims she is not - one who graciously accepts others for what they are, without attempting to manipulate or change them. This is one of several instances where I see something different than the character's own assessment of herself . And no, I don't believe such a lady is an anachronism in 2003. At least I hope not.

Vi, an interesting point on "ladylike." - although I personally don't distinguish much of a difference between "lady" and "ladylike." The seven virtues that you suggest as the author's concept of a lady - are interesting. Not having reached that point, (not having read past page 86) I will be alert for them in the future. Will MD raise the whole concept of "lady" to include the sublime heavenly virtues? Veddy interesting!

Joan Pearson ---Oh dear. Scrub out the Seven Heavenly Virtues -- they are never mentioned in the book. Having brought up the 'lady' subject -- not one dear to my heart, I must say -- I thought 'virtues' might sound better. I was really EVER so pleased when you wrote that Candida accepted people just as they were. It's how I see her - courteous, concerned over the girl with the lump, generous with her hospitality & curiosity about other people without being inquisitive - she is a nice woman.

Unfortunately, 'ladylike' has derisive connotations in England -- usually of daintiness, pseudo-gentility & ghastly good taste.

Marvelle has said that "Sibyl" means "God's will". The question I have is: "Which god?" The god of Luke in the New Testament of the Christian Bible is not a god of the Ancient Greeks or Romans. To which will of which god does this statement refer?

The Nameless Narrator says on Page 41, "There is not much to be said in favour of Janet Millgram Parry and Henrietta Parks but at least they do not talk about sex. They are ladies." Is that her definition of a lady? A woman who doesn't talk about sex the way Sally and others do? Is she a prude, or is she only genteel?

Yes, this narrator is a nice woman, as Viogert said. I keep wanting her to discard the Liberty print "mumsy" dress and add a little color to her life à la Anais and Mrs. Jerrold.

Is the narrator expected to offer a sacrifice as Aeneas did, or has she sacrificed enough? Answers will come as Margaret Drabble's book goes on.

Mal

Do I remember correctly? Today we were going to talk about folks in the neighborhood?

Price Cutter workers... not white, not black, speaking a lanuage "I do not know"... p. 57

Flower shop man... Speaks English, just not sure of his words, what they mean... p. 60

Frog and Firkin... "a desolate conglomeration of desperate folk".. p. 78

Could we include Mr. Gordano Black and his resturant? p. 85

What do these characters mean? What do they represent? That's for better heads than mine to say!!

Lou

My thoughts this morning...

Is there anything that Candida feels deeply about...has a "passion" for? Or is it that she's been a doormat for so long she has no personal interests/passions? She goes through the motions of "caring" and being "hospitable" but I don't think her heart is in it. Is her heart in anything?

She seems unaware of what's going on in the world around her and some of you seem to be saying that's because of Perfect Andrew. I don't quite understand that. Did he cut her off from the news/from current events magazines (in this country, Time, Newsweek, US News) and newspapers and radio/television?

Any insights greatly appreciated!

Jane, I had the impression that she lived an ivory towered, Ibsen's A Doll's House kind of existence in a very small village in Suffolk. Having known some people like Andrew the Headmaster, I'd go so far as to say they probably didn't even own a television set. Coming from that background, everything she saw in Ladbroke Grove was brand new to her.

Mal

Lou2 --- I would guess that few of these characters were native born & would not have settled in Suffolk so Candida wouldn't recognise them.

Price Cutter Workers : North African - Moroccan, Algerian or Afghans.

Flower Shop Man: Northern Irish - some accents are impenetrable.

Frog & Firkin: stupid new name given by the brewery to attract new people, but the same old locals spend the day in there.

Gordano Black: Could be Italian or Caribbean restautateur opening a good Bistro in an up-&-coming locality.

Glosses I'd like to apologise to Ginny for leap-frogging over her information about these to thank Joan Pearson instead. I simply didn't see the reference. I will attempt not to be quite so slap-dash in future.

Have you been to a big city like New York, Washington, or Chicago recently? You'll meet all of the types and places Viogert mentioned in her post. My small hometown city in New England was always full of various ethnic and language groups from French Canadian to Italian to Irish to German, English, Scottish, Welsh and Polish, Czechoslovakian to Armenian, Greek, Egyptian, Russian, Chinese, African via slavery, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist and more, many of which had businesses like restaurants and small markets, so these things were not such a surprise to me as I grew older in other places. The narrator from her rarified environment has not been exposed to such people and places. The adjustment is not easy to make.

Don't apologize here, Viogert. What you say is a breath of fresh air. For me it is, anyway.

Mal

Have I finally found something that may be of value to add to this discussion? My reader’s guide for the Aeneid says “The fact that Aeneas’s name is withheld for so long….” and Candida’s name is withheld for so long….. “ He is a ‘fugitive’….” Couldn’t we say our narrator is a fugitive? “… Virgil mentions the divine obstacle that will plague Aeneas throughout his quest: “the sleepless rage” “…. Ginny’s anger, rage and the sleeplessness narrator speaks about…. Was it you Ginny, that asked/said maybe narrator is identifying with Aeneas rather than Dido??? Do any of you see parallels here too?

Thanks, Viogert for the help with my neighborhood folks, as well as all your other insightful comments!

Lou

Sure, Lou. The narrator's journey (or anyone's, as a matter of fact) is similar to that of Aeneas. Any idea that she is Dido seemed Romantic to me.

Mal

Mmm Lou - this is an interesting slant you have brought up. You may well be right. I felt that at first Candida was trying to bury herself in anonymity! Then as the months go on she becomes lonely and whether she admits it to herself or not seeks company.

She had never lived on her own and sleeplessness is common after a bereavement or divorce when you are forced to be alone by circumstances beyond your control. For the first year of my widowhood I would be lucky to get three hours sleep a night but I never seemed to feel tired. I had such a busy and confused mind sleep just would not come.

I think her very reserve makes her attractive to others maybe like Julia they feel they can confide in her and be confident she will not gossip. She is certainly not a gossip like her friend Sally. I think often gossiping is the result of not wanting to confront issues in ones personal life and gossiping about others prevents one from looking inwardly. The worst gossips I have met are people whose lives are a disaster, in a lot of cases their own lives are far messier than those of the people they are gossiping about.

I am beginning to like Candida more and more as the book unfolds before me.

Carolyn

If I bleat on too much about the characters do tell me!

Carolyn

Carolyn, When we're living with this lady as closely as we are these days, how can we not go on about her? Doesn't she occupy a huge part of your brain with this discussion?? So of course, we care about her and talk about her!! IMHO...

Lou

One thing to remember is that the narrator has no name? She hasn't come that far yet in establishing her identity. And she is more than one character in the Aeneid as you'll see as the book progresses -- like trying on dresses to see what fits after her shape has changed.

Perfect Andrew is a scapegoat, a false one, as the narrator eventually figures out. She vacillates between blaming herself and blaming him and the truth is somewhere inbetween.

After a time, as the unreliable narrator switches back and forth between blame him/blame her, I believe we are supposed to see that the failure of the marriage was mutual. And the narrator allowed herself to fall into a limited social niche which she is now changing.

She's gradually getting over the blaming (I think) but some people never do. They can blame 20-30 years after an unhappy incident. My father was one of those and they are not pleasant to be around; it's a very unattractive trait all that blaming and whining and poor me and they/he/she done me wrong bleatings. Ugh!

Carolyn and Lou, I'm beginning to like the narrator more as she graually sheds her anger, resentment, and poor me thoughts. By reading her Diary, which wouldn't normally happen, we are seeing past her public face.

Marvelle

If this author hadn't hit on the game-plan hook of the Aeneid, this book could have been like all the other books written about poor, beleaguered wives whose husbands kicked them out. It may win prizes and do well on the market for a long time, who knows? But the depth of this story is dependent on what somebody else wrote, just like The Angle of Repose. Too bad. Where did originality go?

Dull and familiar, just as I said in my one-two word summation in the beginning of this discussion. Somewhere within this book is a good woman named Candida Wilton. She's the one who interests me, with or without her fixation on the Aeneid. I hope this writer reveals her to me.

Mal

Mal - I think Candida is revealing herself as she goes along. Even up to page 86 I am getting to know her. The first few pages my first reaction was 'Crikey what a cold fish!' But as she writes I begin to understand where she is coming from. I never ever get tired about reading about ordinary people. Candida is an ordinary person approaching life as a single person in her own unique way. Thats the exciting thing about being human we are unique. I far prefer reading autobiographies about ordinary people than those about the famous. Ordinary people often have extraordinary tales to tell!

Carolyn

40? 40 new posts?

hahahaah

Gee what energy here, it's a real delight to come in here finally tonight and see all the positive things going on and being said, congratulations. And BEST of all, excellent conversations witih the other participants, and real points made!

There is no way on earth I can respond to 40 posts individually but the COLLECTIVE body of what all you've said is wonderful!

Pedln, thank you for the page of the buying of the flat, once you've mentioned it, then it DOES become very striking, that was a BIG and perhaps....dangerous move and a bold one.

You opened a Pandora's box with the "lady" thing and I've enjoyed everybody's take on ALL the different permutations!

Lou an interesting point on what she seemed NOT to know, was she that sheltered?

Thank you for the Vergil! hahaaha AND for this, "actually understanding without re-reading and looking at the guide!! There's hope for me yet... " hahaha! Love it!

Oh that's good news, I think there may be hope for me, too, in a phone conversation today with our Pearson she has me seeing a different side (or a less negative side) of our heroine here, but the jury is still out.

And what a joy it is to be able to talk over a book, with you all or in person, it's a luxury.

Carolyn, your remark on the narrator and her friends, I think, is very astute, again, you are seeing something below what she says, and this MAY be a temporary situation.

Jane had asked the time frame, I think it's 2002, what do the rest of you think, but our heroine seems stuck in the 50's to me, does she to you?

Marvelle, thank you for the fabulous links, they are wonderful.

You mention "if you link God's will with the epigraph to the novel which is part of Luke 12.".

I was not paying very much attention to that when the numbers suddenly jumped out at me!

"Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings?
And not one of the is forgotten before God."

By George, there's another reference to Seven again!

I'm going to have to ponder the "God's Will Sibyl" and the "endless fate," I confess being quite confused over them.

ginny

There is a tremendous difference between allusion and literary theft; a difference in ethics, legality, and artistry. If you don't wish to see that, so be it. The authors who heavily employed allusion to deepen the meanings of their works and to add enjoyment to readers -- such as of Chaucer, James Joyce, Herman Melville, Cervantes, Robert Frost, Edith Wharton, and T.S. Eliot -- will survive it.

Marvelle

I thought Marvelle had an interesting thought on "ladyship" and it explains the question in the heading, too, on narrator's wanting to "betray herself" to Sally:

A lady is required by society to have two sides to her -- one public and and the other private.

Narrator is afraid of Sally of what Sally will say to the folks back home But she yearns to BE real, to really tell Sally about the soup, but she is not confident enough at this point to do it because she regards it as "betraying" her own self.

She seems hung up on that "Betraying" bit, this is not the first time she's used the idea, she used it at table with Andrew, too, he exhibited "treachery" to her by saying the food was bad?

I wonder how many scenes of domestic violence take place at the table, if you all read Pat Conroy you know of the most memorable table scene ever written.

Joan P what an interesting definition of a lady. So you feel lady is not an anachronism in 2003, we need to ask that question in the heading, it may depend upon a person's own definition, in a country that has no titles such as Lord and Lady Whatnot like England does.

Malryn, another good question, "Is the narrator expected to offer a sacrifice as Aeneas did, or has she sacrificed enough? " I will put it in the heading, thanks!

Yes, LOU, thank you for keeping us all on track, today IS the people in the neigborhood, as Mr. Rogers used to sing, oh.. who are the people in your neighborhood?

I hope to hear what others make of them, thanks for that list.

Super question Jane, "Is there anything that Candida feels deeply about...has a "passion" for? Or is it that she's been a doormat for so long she has no personal interests/passions? "

I'll put that in the heading, the first thing that comes to me is "herself," I would say that's all she cares about now, but I know that can't be right, what do you all think, a very thought provoking question.

Viogert, in speaking of the various ethnic backgrounds of the neighborhood, would she have been unfamilliar with these in Suffolk? I see on page 80 she says she hasn't seen enough of them (black people) to be able to make class distinctions.

Does Suffolk not have an immigrant population also ( I realize London would have a million times more). IS Suffolk "backward," as Drabble says and if so, in what way?

Lou, oh wonderful points,

The fact that Aeneas’s name is withheld for so long….” and Candida’s name is withheld for so long….. “ He is a ‘fugitive’….” Couldn’t we say our narrator is a fugitive? “… Virgil mentions the divine obstacle that will plague Aeneas throughout his quest: “the sleepless rage” “…. Ginny’s anger, rage and the sleeplessness narrator speaks about…. Was it you Ginny, that asked/said maybe narrator is identifying with Aeneas rather than Dido??? Do any of you see parallels here too?

Yes!!

The sleepless narrator, well we all know about sleeplessness but I note that Lou mentions "sleepless rage," and that reminded me of the quote,

Exsomnis noctesque diesque and,

well heckers, according to Lewis and Short the quotation actually is

Vestibulum exsomnis servat noctesque diesque.

Would you believe that's from....drum roll....Book VI of the Aeneid? hahahaa

It refers to Tisiphone, who was one of the Furies (whom Vergil actually named first) who apparently keeps unsleeping watch (in her bloody robes) over the entrance way day and night.

A Fury, now, not one of your happier sleepless folk.

But here is something that really gave me chills!

My book of the Aeneid is the Everyman Library and it just starts with the poem, and in trying to find the Tisipone reference, I found another older volume, one of those gorgeous leather books, but I nearly dropped my teeth when I opened it to Book VI, because each of the Books starts with a gloss? It's called the "Argument," and guess what else? It's in the third person, too? It's the Dryden translation, is it in the link in the heading? I was floored.

Oh Carolyn I do like this, never thought of it this way:

I think often gossiping is the result of not wanting to confront issues in ones personal life and gossiping about others prevents one from looking inwardly.

I always thought it was people trying to be more or feel more important than they were!

You are beginning to like Candida and to feel she's a real person. I have a feeling she IS a real person, parts and bits of Drabble herself.

And BLEAT on, that's what we're here for! haahah

Marvelle, good point on the narrator's slipping back and forth so the reader can see it's a mutual thing. So far I'm not seeing much to her fault, I wonder if I should? There are worse things than being quiet!

And this was a very good point: "By reading her Diary, which wouldn't normally happen, we are seeing past her public face."

That IS a good point, these are her inmost thoughts we're reading, why is that? Who has let US in? Did she? Did the author? Who is narrator talking TO?

US? Herself?

ginny

What do you suppose the narrator means when she says “Julia is a wicked woman. I am a wicked woman. Her sins are of commission, mine of omission.” (page 77)

What has she omitted to do?

On the subject of “lady” as we use it in this country, I thought Joan P had a very interesting definition. I don’t believe I have thought about that word in years, and only then in the context of affectation or somebody trying to put on a show and pretend to be something they are not. Was it Pedln who mentioned “lady” and “class?”

To me class is something you carry with you, you either have it or you don’t. I’m not referring to social status or money earned (the upper/ middle/ lower/ etc strata’s of income ) but rather another indefinable quality. Nothing to do with goodness, tho, I found Joan P’s definition fascinating.

OK the neighbors. Let’s talk about the man with the crucifix. He’s short and black and has a cross taller than he is, it’s “vast, plain, white wooden crucifix.” And it’s HINGED? A hinged cross!!! What an anomaly! He is a figure, she says, “of penance.” He walks the streets and she has compassion for him, just like the dreadlocks guy she gave a two pound coin to, and inquired about his comfort as he drank cold Heinz chicken soup from the tin (have you ever seen anybody do that?) I have.

So she has compassion for these two men. She thinks that the guy with the crucifix is doing penance for all of them, “for I cannot believe that he himself can have done anything bad enough to warrant so long an expiation.”

How long has it been? She has not known him that long, has she?

The…what is it, whole three years?

OK here we need to ask ourselves what these strange weird people represent? Why has the author introduced them and what do they mean to the plot and the narrator?

(Did you think the gloss to his one was a bit strange, by the way? She introduces
her friends in their
persons to this
story

Strange. In their persons?

I’m noticing that she has compassion for the dreadlocks guy, and the crucifix guy, she likes Anais (doesn’t that MEAN something? That name) but in contrast (and just so we don’t miss it the author brings the old and new together) Sally and Julia seem negatively described and contrived. Perhaps in this narrator is about to shed off the old skin permanently, maybe we’re watching her epiphany or something, out with the old shabby life and people, in with the new?

Eating cold out of the can! The first time I saw that I nearly croaked. I was teaching by day and working in JC Penny’s by night (Ladiy’s Better Ready to Wear hahahahaha) and the staff would eat baked beans and Vienna (pronounced VI -EENA) sausages straight from the can. I think that narrator is just beginning to be exposed to things most of us experienced a long time ago, they opened our eyes, that’s for sure. I sure hope she can lose this deadly dreadful negativism in the process. That will be a real emergence if she can manage it!

Did any of you wonder why she keeps the photo of her father in a drawer? The only photo she has, she keeps in a drawer? (page 53).

I loved the bit about Andrew “I’d brought a few old wedding presents that I’m sure Andrew won’t miss…”

And then there’s the Carthage references but tomorrow’s another day!

IS the concept of “lady” an anachronism in 2003?

ginny

Ginny, I like the ARGUMENT explanation.

The epigraph established a theme which may become clearer as we read and I think the epigraph is a good roadmap to refer to from time to time during the discussion. I always meant to say to Lou that I too am trying to understand "The Seven Sisters." I've pointed out some things I think may be significant but I don't have the answers for them. It's a matter of gradually connecting the dots.

Marvelle

Oh, Marvelle, I've been aware of allusion in literature since I was 12 years old and had a very good English teacher, a graduate of a two year "Normal School" which gave teaching certificates and no degrees. It was originality I was musing about, nothing else.

To whom does one write in a diary besides oneself? Unlike Stevens in Remains of the Day, this narrator is not addressing "Dear Reader".

One of the sins of omission the narrator has committed is never to have lived her own life.

More tomorrow, if this cold I have will allow me to sleep through the night.

Mal

Oh I like that, Marvelle, connecting the dots! That's what we're doing, we're on our own little Aeneid here or Bookeid (or dare I say Drabbleid?) hahaaha adventure. WILL we find the way? CAN we connect the dots or ARE there any dots, that's the question!

I'm going to give myself one of the names of the Aeneid, I like the Fury Tisiphone, so from now on I'm going by Tisiphone!

Tisi

Dear Tisi, here is my offering to you:

The three Furies were Tisiphone, Alecto and Maegeara. They tormented evil-doers -- by inflicting a guilty conscience on them -- especially those who committed a crime against a family member. I remember from my first Classics class that the Furies 'breathe acid fire and cry acid tears.' They have hair of snakes and guard Hades.

In Aeschylus' trilogy "The Oresteia." Orestes is pursued by the Furies for the murder of his mother. He killed her as retribution for murdering his father/her husband. Orestes underwent years of punishment by the Furies and society. In the ending play of the trilogy, there is a trial and the citizens decide that Orestes had been punished enough, that the cycle of vengence has to end, and Orestes is pardoned. The Furies are, well, furious but Athena placates them with promises that they'll always be honored and the Furies were known from then on as The Eumenides (Soothed Ones). Thus, vengeance and punishment are married to justice.

Furies Pursue Orestes

Furies History and Art

What I find relevant to "The Seven Sisters" is that the Furies represent guilt and they destroy sleep.

Marvelle

There's a good deal of God in this book, both pagan and christian. It starts with the epigraph and now Ginny has called attention to the man carrying the cross and the man in dreadlocks from the underground/underpass/underworld.

Marvelle

Gosh! Such thought provoking posts!

I have been researching Drabble today.

Here is some of what I discovered.

Her friends call her Maggie

She is married to another writer but she and her husband keep separate houses. Guess its to provide the solitude necessary for writing. They appear to have a good relationship. She has been married before and divorced. She has three adult children.

The area Candida lives in is the area in which Drabbles husband resides.

She is indeed a scholar. She edited the Oxford Companion to English literature.

Carolyn

All this in the first 86 pages! And we haven't even touched on EVERYTHING to be found here! I am itching to go beyond, but there is still so much more to talk over. I certainly have gained a different perspective after reading your posts! Thank you all so much! Isn't this something else? Each time I come in here, I have something in mind I want to post and then read yours and am off on another tangent. Things are becoming clearer now....but not ready to read page 87 yet!

I'll TRY to be concise with observations...

THE JOURNAL - Ginny points out that she wouldn't have traced over daughters' names to make them bold like that because she's keeping this journal on her laptop. Well then, isn't that a clue as to the time-frame? Does it surprise you that this woman is comfortable composing her journal on a laptop? I don't know about you, but she comes across to me as one who would be writing in a journal with pen and ink. But she's composing on her laptop...using the BOLD feature on her daughters' names. Do you go to the trouble to bold words and names for a reason?

Autobiographical elements I'd like to hear more about Margaret Drabble. From the little I know, there are parallels to the protagonist here. The divorce (from an actor-husband who starred in a TV series called "Keeping Up With Appearances"!!!) and the three grown children. Is MDrabble in her sixties too? Carolyn, I didn't know she had remarried! I wonder when... I have a feeling the author understands her character very well because she has been through this.

Seven There's another seven - did you notice the dedication? (Dedications ALWAYS get my attention!) "For Ann, Kay, Pat, Per, Viv and Al" That's six names - Seven Sisters. Is "Maggie" the seventh? More of the sense of autobiography here...or just coincidence???

The Golden Bough Hmmm...maybe this is a stretch, but there is much talk of superstitious "mascots" here...to ward off "the evil eye" - her green plastic horse, Emerald - Julia's Turkish bracelet ("it had a magic to it") - and then there's the matter of her engagement ring. Did the fact that she is still wearing his ring stop you short? She doesn't have any other jewelry. This is not a simple little gold or silver band that goes with everything. She's walking around in this sort of underworld wearing a "Victorian sapphire and diamond ring!" "It doesn't seem right to sell it, but I don't really want it now. Do I?" Does she NEED it still? To continue her journey through the underworld, warding off evil spirits? She hasn't yet "buried" her love which is her reason for being here, where she is, isn't that right?

Fascinating posts on Sibyl and the Furies...there's a lot going on here...but haven't pulled them together yet. YOU are all helping We still have another day or two before moving on to p. 87, right? Again, thank you all for the mental stimulation!

Kiwi Lady --- one of those links is to an interview with Drabble that brings her almost up to date. She was born 1939 so is around the same age as Candida.

She is married to Michael Holroyd, the biographer (who is writing a 3vol biog of G.B.Shaw the playwright - who wrote a play called 'Candida'). They lived apart after they married because some of her children still lived at home, but moved into her husbands Ladbroke Grove house after selling her own. She is on good terms with her children. She has said quite firmly that she is not a scholar, so it probably means ssomething different to her. If she says she isn't - I have to trust her.

Joan Pearson -- I didn't notice the dedication adding up to seven - counting MD. Well done!

Ginny
12. the references to SEVEN mount up - I haven't counted them - there may be more!

13. I didn't attach any significance to these men - except to imagine how exotic they might appear to her;

14. flawed glass is always antique. Contemporary glass is clear. I was impressed by Candida's childlike fascination with it - & that she distorted things through it for amusement later. Avernus would never have occurred to me & doesn't now.

15. 'lady' is outdated but everybody has an opinion on it. My concept is of a person of good manners. She remarks on it after two years in a mixed area of London - mixing with young women of all classes at the Health Club & notices how people have changed since she was a girl.

16. isn't 'Golden Bough' dead mistletoe? A ancient magical plant with roots in another tree? J.G.Frazer wrote a big book of that name that is now "unacceptable", (according to MD in OCEL)

17 it's contemporary - nobody would have built a Health Club in Ladbroke Grove 10 years ago

18 I can't imagine what Candida would atone for here.

19 Candida has no hobbies or amusements because she is building a new environment for herself out of the wreckage of the past.

20 calling her friend 'wicked' is probably in the religious sense of breaking known rules. I suspect Candida's guilt comes from not having 'held her marriage together'.

21 the word 'lady' is the only female title we have left that doesn't have another meaning - like queen, duchess, dame, madame, princess - so I hope it isn't allowed to dwindle into disrepute.

I can't tell you how relieved I am to find a few people beginning to like Candida.

You're up bright and early, Vi! The Golden Bough is dead mistletoe? hahaha...my husband received a Farmers'Almanac desk calendar ...just yesterday he read me the the entry for January 4 -

Burn the "kissing ball or kissers will be quarreling soon. (Did you burn your mistletoe on the 4th?) Called "All Heal" by the Druids, mistletoe was reputed to ward off evil, pervent bad dreams, protect against lightening and fires, and aid conception...

Vi, C. writes that her sins are those of "omission" rather than "commission." Perhaps these are the sins she must atone for?

Marvelle - the three Furies tormented evil-doers -- by inflicting a guilty conscience on them -- especially those who committed a crime against a family member. Hmmmm...something to keep in mind.

Tisi, the reason I came back in here just now was to say that I DON't a copy of the Dryden translation, the electronic text to the Dryden translation does NOT include the gloss you describe...but I DO find it fascinating and meaningful that the gloss in your paper copy is third person. I consider this another link between the the novel and the Aeniad. Good for you! I haven't forgotten your question about:

"She introduces her friends in their persons to this story"

In their persons. These "friends" that Candida makes in the underbelly of London...are the incarnation of the lost spirits in the underworld Aeneas describes?

Have a great day, you all. Can't wait to get back and see what all you have discovered!

Tisiphone, huh? Hmmm...how is that pronounced? I'm one of those "kids" who never had phonics in school.

I've been re-reading the first 86 pages and getting bogged down in the narrator's need to see "an agenda" or that lovely German word that meant glee in others misfortune in everyone! Our narrator is obsessed with that, it seems to me. She blames it on the woman at her "health club"(p. 10-11)and her friend Janet who visits the narrator's mother in the "carehome" in Lincoln.."who is cloyingly smpathetic about my divorce" and "I am sure she has her own selfish reasons for going to see my mother."

Is she feeling so guilt-ridden by her own perception that maybe she's the one with the "agenda" that she's projecting this onto everyone around her--or is she suffering with mental illness?

She also mentioned the number 3 early on. (p. 20)

A lady? Classy? No yet for me. Harridan is the word that pops to mind to describe her at this point.

This re-reading is slow going for me, for I want to shake this woman. As Carolyn said so beautifully: "'Crikey what a cold fish!'

Yes, Carolyn has the right word for it 'Crikey what a cold fish!'

No wonder that her daughters have long deserted her. The narrator seems to be afraid to get close to anyone.

I ran into J. G. Frazer's The Golden Bough on the web when I was doing a search for one of my magazines long before I knew Drabble's book was to be discussed. I bookmarked it and have read bits of it from time to time. Why is it unacceptable, I wonder?

How could I not like Candida? What she's going through is so similar to what happened to me and so many others I know that I can't help but feel empathy with her.

The "introduces her friends in their persons" editorial comment comes at the time Sally comes to see her, and Julia has said she's going to come. To me it means that she's bringing in the real people rather than just her thoughts about them.

Speaking of offerings, doesn't she give the dreadlocks guy some coins at one point? Or am I beyond page 86 here?

I don't think the bolding of her daughters' names means anything except to reveal the thoughtful mood she was in at the time.

The man with the hinged crucifix and other characters she meets are similar to people I've come across in New York in my wanderings around alone in that city. When I've seen them I've wondered why they do what they do, and never attached any particular significance to them. To me they were part of the tapestry that is New York City and what make it what it is. Those of you who are students of the classics well could find significance in relation to the Aeneid, I suppose. I hope this Aeneid discussion here won't swallow up Drabble's book so much for me that I don't recognize it for the story of a woman that it is.

The last article I read about Margaret Drabble said her husband and she now live together in the same house. I'd love to read Holroyd's biography of Shaw, who is one of my heroes. I read all of Shaw's plays one summer when I was just a teenaged kid and many times since. Did you ever read his book about women and politics? I forget the name. It's a book I think all women should read.

My Maine sister, who has read about all Margaret Drabble has written, told me recently on the phone that she and Drabble have been growing old together. She's close in age to this writer. I must write to her and see if she has this book. She was waiting for the library in the little country coastal town where she lives to get it in. I'm really anxious to know what she thinks about this book. Her conclusions about books are pretty much on the mark.

I find it hard to call you Tisi, Ginny. Can't imagine you as a Fury, that's why.

Mal

The narrator does give 2 farthings to the dreadlocked man. Does it signify compassion, comradeship or payment to Charon to ferry her over the River or something else?

I'm beginning to like the new persona of the narrator but with cautions; never could like the narrator in the first pages of her Diary. Cold fish truly. She has so much hatred whirling around her even though she's trying to change. And whether old or new persona, I would never be friends with her.

It's important to remember that she is an unreliable narrator; she's warned us herself as I've mentioned earlier. The unreliable narrator (UN) is a deliberate fictional technique, and the UN can be a child, one with limited knowledge, or limited mental capacity, or with a reason to fool readers. This is important.

Evergreens, such as mistletoe and Christmas trees, are representatives of the Golden Bough (our narrator's Christmas tree p55 and 57). In ancient times, the evergreen tree symbolized eternal life. Romans held winter festivals and decorated their house with tree boughs and paraded evergreen trees decorated with candles and baubles.

When christianity began to flourish, they tried to end this pagan 'tree worship.' Jeremiah 10-2-6: "Thus saith the Lord, learn not the way of the heathen ....For the customs of the people are vain; for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of a workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

Eventually it seemed easier to christians to adopt the practice as their own. When this was adopted is uncertain. But Christ was given an actual birth date during the winter solstice and Martin Luther, around 1500 AD, started the idea of bringing an evergreen tree into the home as a symbol of Christ's birth and that tradition spread.

For more on the blending of pagan and christian tradtions see

Winter Festivals to Christmas

Marvelle

So far as I know it's still a practice in rural parts of Slovenia, the home of my paternal grandparents, to marry a tree to an older virgin, one not likely to marry for whatever reason. Not only is this a mild rebuke to the woman but it does offer hope for eternal life which normally would have been given through having children. My grandmother didn't need the rebuke for she had seventeen children! Thirteen of them reached adulthood.

Marvelle

That unreliable narrator (or clever Margaret Drabble) certainly does fool the reader, as we will see as we read along.

Edit: 17 children, Marvelle! She must have been pregnant most of her life! And I thought my paternal grandmother was a hero with 9.

Mal

Am I being dense here? “TRAINING FOR KILLS, that was another advertisement. I worked that one out quite quickly.” Pages 56 and 57… Does that mean something other than training to kill other folks? Is it a military reference?? Am I making too much of this?

Viogert, Thanks for the reference to the book The Golden Bough. That kept running around behind my left ear. I thought I remembered such a book… but can’t for the life of me remember what it was. At least now I know it does exist. Thanks. Malryn, it’s on the net? I’ll have to look for it. Thanks.

Joan, I’ve been thinking and thinking about that engagement ring. Thanks so much for bring it up. The Golden Bough?? Will be interesting to see what we decide… notice how I’m taking ownership of all the knowledge and creative thinking you all are doing?? It makes me feel better!!!!

I've been looking for sins and found I had to get these things off my minds before it would "go forth"!!!

Lou

I think, but am not sure, that the one connection with Fraser's "Golden Bough" is the mention of evergreen trees and pagan practices. Lou, you are so amazing. Yes, TRAINING FOR KILLS is relevant too.

Marelle

The Golden Bough by Frazer

It's not important to the plot - doesn't add up to seven - but Candida gave the man drinking soup from the tin a £2 coin. It is a recently designed coin & the best since the half-crown I think. It has a gold bevelled edge & written on the bevelling (for some reason) is "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants". A picture of ODQ on one side, & on the other, 4 wheels. The outer one in gold metal & the inner ones in silver metal. The designs on these are mysterious, but I could look at it for ages. The dreadlock man 'turned it over & over in his fingers' - maybe because it's heavier than other coins & there not so many of them about.

As they say, around here "It takes all sorts to make a world". I dare say to some, Candida would appear cool, but I find this refreshing - friendly without being too close. Remember, she is writing this stuff down for herself. She is not ranting at anybody else.

Malryn -- the school was IN Sevenoaks - it's a town in Kent.

Page 54. "I wonder why I still wear Andrew's engagment ring. To ward off the Evil Eye, perhaps, though nobody would pursue me now. People would be more likely to snatch my ring than my person. There is no need for me to declare my marital status now."

I think the ring is simply a hangover from her marriage.

Didn't the narrator go to a school which was named Sevenoaks?

Edit: Thanks, Viogert. Just saw what you said.

Mal

"Training for kills." I suddenly remembered Fishkill, New York. Kills are creeks. Didn't the Wormwood Scrubs prisoner drown his victim in a creek? Does this have to do with the narrator's obsession with water?

Mal

It's just the letter 'S' dropped off. It should read "Training for Skills".

And I was so happy that I'd found a clue. Oh, well.

Mal

I'd mentioned the water once before in relation to both Jane Richards and the man from Wormword Scrubs and the narrator connects them, particularly on page 74: "I think much about drowning. My man in Wormwood Scrubs drowned his victim. He says he did't mean to, but I suspect he did. I know the very place. Anthea's daughter drowned herself. I know the very place. I wade in but only up to my knees." I'd quoted this earlier since I thought it was pertinent and could be understood two different ways; it's ambiguous.

Frazer's "Golden Bough." is a grondbreaking study in myth and religion linking pagan thoughts and customs with today's institutions and folk customs. Lou, it's a fascinating book and you could lose yourself in it for he writes beautifully.

Frazer says that according to ancient legends any candidate for priesthood, aka King of the Wood, can only be successful by killing the current king and "he could fling his challenge only if he first succeeded in plucking a golden bough from the tree which the priest was guarding." (p3-4, abridged version, Criterion Books 1959)

Frazer says that the golden bough is the mistletoe, growing and gleaming in winter on oak trees and is a symbol of the eternal soul. His slightly revised Aeneid quote cements the identification of mistletoe to golden bough. Christians have adopted the Christmas tree as a golden bough.

Historians take issue with the idea of the golden bough being a challenge; they say that the bough historically was a 'supplicant's wand' which is an offering to appease the gods.

Aeneas used the bough as an offering to enter the underworld and be able to return to the living -- in his case it was both a sacrifice and salvation. This is what the Christmas tree also symbolizes. Pagan meets christian and merges.

Marvelle

I should have read the posts before I posted. Mal, you posted the "Golden Bough" already. Well, the controversy is not evergree versus mistletoe since either can be a golden bough. The controversy is the challenge versus appeasement (sacrifice and salvation). So really out posts looked at a different angle of the golden bough; each relevant.

I think TRAINING FOR KILLS tells us the narrator's emotional mindet.

What about Candida and the old, brown Christmas tree?

Mal

Absolutely right, Mal. Sacrifice and salvation. I mentioned the Christmas tree in post 145 and an earlier post. I found references to the tree on pages 55 and 57 so far.

Marvelle

I looked and looked for an acronym for "kills" and couldn't find one, but did find the reference to creek in New York... so Malryn, I didn't even think about that... I don't know: skills or kills,creeks? Have no idea. I've also spent time trying to find Anais... no luck so far. Still working on the solitaire angle. I keep coming to do a post about a quesion and end up with more questions!! I love this! Thanks, you all!!

Lou

I've thought about posting something for a while now. I've searched my memory and don't believe I am pulling any information or any of my impressions from beyond page 86.

The narrator hints at two different interpretations regarding guilt.

First interpretation: she's guilty for being a woman and she wished she could kill someone (Jane Richards, Anthea, Andrew or herself or all of them). Women are guilty due to original sin and the blame that earlier, traditional writers of history and religion heaped on women.

Second interpretation: she killed Jane Richards.

I opt for the first interpretation since I think the narrator is too timid and too much the lady but if you go back and read the first 86 pages you see have cleverly the hints are made about murder. I think it was murder in her heart (and suicide is also murder).

Either of these interpretations answer some questions:

Why was the narrator seeing the man in Wormwood Scrubs?

Because he murdered a girl by drowning which is something the narrator is guilty of in either heart or deed. She wants to communicate with someone who dwells in the same darkness she does and that excludes her distant friends and family. But I think those meetings are failures because it isn't quite the same. Could she see the differences or similarities between her and the Wormwood Scrubs man? I say she is only guilty in her heart.

Why is the narrator afraid to meet nosy Sally?

Because Sally might ask the questions others have wondered but haven't asked. And the narrator, brought up as she was, would feel she had to answer. Questions and answers would be uncomfortable whether guilty by heart or deed.

Why can't the narrator sleep? Why does she call herself wicked?

Guilty either by heart or deed.

It intigues me, and saddens me, that the consequences for murder -- ostracism, blame, punishment -- can be so similar to the guilty consequences for a woman's anger, for abandoning the marital bed, for being divorced, for not having much money. For stepping out of her traditional role. The narrator isn't 100% responsible for her situation but she is hounded by the Furies and society.

Again, I think it's a no-brainer that the narrator only wished to murder, a Grand Epic solution, but it is deliberately ambiguous. And that's why she identifies with poor-me victim Dido and that guilty heel Aeneas.

Marvelle

I noticed our narrator was alone a lot in Suffolk before she left: napped in the afternoon p74, walked p17, slept alone p.74, didn’t support the school,p74, doesn’t see much of her mother … Could these be the root of her omissions? When I think about her solitaire soliloquy p35, she’s mulling alternatives… with real cards you can second guess yourself, look at the cards to see what would have happened if you’d chosen the other card, with the computer there is “more future freedom”, “less reversibility”, “never rethink a past decision”, “It does not even permit a mistake”. "Playing for high stakes is more dangerous and more sinful than playing alone, but playing alone is not good for the soul.” That’s as far as I can go. Anyone care to take a stab at it?

One thing I noticed, I think Sevenoaks is where Julia's parents lived p30.

Lou

First of all, I don't think it makes a whit of difference who comes up with an idea in this discussion and posts it first. We are not in competition here or a bunch of scientists, each trying to publish first so one will win the Nobel Prize. We're a team, aren't we, in this endeavor, whether or not we agree?

I think this narrator believes her former husband and Anthea are the guilty ones, even when it came to Jane's suicide. Is there anything in this book that tells us Candida knew the Wormwood Scrubs man had drowned someone when she signed up to do this visitng? Or did she decide to do her civic duty and volunteer to visit anyone in the prison who was allowed to have such visitations? I don't think there's any picking and choosing allowed in this situation, like "Give me a murderer, I want to share my guilty self with someone equally as bad."

She was guilty by association only and guilty of allowing Andrew to push her around. It was in that way she helped the marriage to fail. This is a woman who has been extremely discouraged. She doesn't want to visit her mother because her mother would invariably criticize her and put her down because her marriage failed, just as her "friends" did. They're the ones who believe in original sin, not Candida.

She also is a practical woman with a great deal of common sense. Disjointed her diary passages might be, but I don't really see any real loss of control in her. Does she get drunk every night? Does she fall into bed with just anyone she sees because she thinks such sex might soothe her or be a hair shirt to wear? Doesn't she take care of herself? Is she punishing herself? Why, she doesn't want to play Solitaire because she thinks it's not a positive thing to do because it keeps her inside and away from seeing others.

This woman had been leading an empty life in her marriage, and she hadn't felt at all well, going through menopause as she has been. Sleep can be a release from pain, and surely she has suffered a lot of pain, physical and mental.

What I've said here all sums up to the fact that I think this is not really an enormously complicated book or a "grand" one, to use Viogert's term. I'm certainly learning something about Aeneas and Greek mythology along the way. What I'm learning about Candida she tells me herself.

By the way, where was bad boy Aeneas's wife while he ran around the globe and messed around with other women like Dido?

Mal

Mal, do I remember right? Was Aeneas's wife left in Troy? Think that's right??

Lou

Wow, 30 posts, amazing, and much more to come!

Marvelle, I like the Argument thing too but the amazing thing is that I can't find it anywhere else, the clue must lie in the Dryden explanation, unfortunately IT is as long as a book so it will take me a while.

Jane, I'm so glad you asked about how Tisiphone was pronounced!

Of course Tisi is pronounced TIZZY? Hahahaahah

I didn't know myself, was saying to self Tiss SIPH o nee, but that's not right.

According to Lewis and Short, it's tee SIPH o nay. Pretty, isn't it? It's fifth declension, too, -es, and feminine.

(For those of you not familiar with Lewis and Short, you may be interested in this little segue, and you might want to know that there are several good Latin dictionaries, most people prefer Cassells, I know I love it, it takes the MOST NORMAL USE of a word and gives you immediate answers).

But Lewis and Short's A Latin Dictionary is the Bible of the Latin academic world, I am willing to be there is NO Department of Classical Languages in the world without at least one copy. It's 2,019 pages of miniscule, almost microscopic print, almost microfiche, and what it does is explain the meaning of the word , every permutation of same, and then gives every instance of where the word occurred in that definition,, who used it, in what work, if it came originally from the Greek or another language, if it only occurs once, etc., etc., etc., if unusual, gives the actual phrase, and indicates if it's the only time that author used it, the etymology of it, etc., etc., etc.

So you can see why it's so big? It's the OED of Latin Dictionaries. IF you can even FIND the meaning you seek in the hundreds of entries and permutations, then you have to go to the SOURCE (because it won't translate but ONE key word, the one you looked up) and find it in the original, and translate it yourself in context: a nice winter's afternoon if you like classics.

Speaking of that Joan P, I really , this has whetted my appetite for reading The Aeneid. I know your Great Books votes and they are looking at something else for the next selection, but for one down the road, I'd LOVE to do the Aeneid, the Dryden Introduction itself is a book and fascinating, the Fitzgerald is superior, but oh how they differ, and there's yet another new translation out. We could compare it to Aeschylus' play, The Eumenides, Would you consider it? I'd like to think about (happily anticipate) nominating it, I think our readers are up to it.

Thank you for noticing the 3 reference, Jane, let's see if a pattern evolves with 3's, too!

Thank you for the Furies background information and links, Marvelle, aren't they interesting, the Furies?

Somebody somewhere in this discussion said something about avenging family and that made my ears prick up, Dad's photo is in the drawer, ....makes you wonder a bit, huh?

Malryn, Ii appreciate that, sometimes I feel like a Fury hahahaaha Hope you feel better today.

Tisi

Thank you, Carolyn, for that interesting background on Drabble, I rather expect her denials of "scholarhip" are in deference to her sister's more well known talents in that area.

Me, too Joan, i think of her as more old fashioned with pen and ink too, not a laptop.

Wonderful point on the Seven Friends dedication!!

I wondered about the ring, too, would YOU have kept it? I wouldn't. Doesn't it symbolize the lost hope and betrayal?

Thank you Viogert, for that additional information that will be very useful for a Biography of the author for the Reader's Guide which will be made out of this discussion. Thank you also Malryn for the mention that they now live in the same house.

Wonderful point on the golden bough being dead mistletoe, but I'm not thinking it is?

Fitzgerald doesn't mention mistletoe at all in his translation but Dryden does:

Perch'd on the double tree that bears the golden bough.
Thro' the green leafs the glitt'ring shadows glow;
As, on the sacred oak, the wintry mistletoe,
Where the proud mother views her precious brood,
And happier branches, which she never sow'd
Such was the glitt'ring; such the ruddy rind,
And dancing leaves, that wanton'd in the wind.

Dryden says the golden bough is LIKE the mistletoe, a parasite, that may be where the idea came from, we need now to get the Latin and translate it for ourselves since Fitzgerald omitted it, let's do it! Then we'll KNOW.

I love the story of the golden bough of antiquity, soft golden stems, bending and soft, shiny golden leaves, glittering in the trees, but if you're not supposed to pluck it, no power on earth will move it, if you are, then it comes away easily and another grows right back up and takes its place. Love it.

Viogert, what an interesting thought, "I suspect Candida's guilt comes from not having 'held her marriage together'."

How could she have? I note in one sort of ironic place she says she was turned out of the home she thought was hers. It's not clear now, to me, what she could have done.

Oh wow, Pearson strikes again:

These "friends" that Candida makes in the underbelly of London...are the incarnation of the lost spirits in the underworld Aeneas describes?

Well done, they are certainly strange enough and one of them even has the required endless punishment that Aeneas found when he got there.

Don't you find it interesting narrator's favorite book is Book VI of the Aeneid? The descent into hell?

Jane, I liked this:

Is she feeling so guilt-ridden by her own perception that maybe she's the one with the "agenda" that she's projecting this onto everyone around her--or is she suffering with mental illness?

and will put it in the heading.

I personally don't think she blames herself much at all, she's too busy right now projecting her own low self image as Carolyn said, and disappointments off on others.

Pat ! Welcome Welcome!! Bless your heart, I guess this is in self defense, huh? (Pat is doing the heading and HTML pages here and putting up all your links and changing the questions, and it's a full time job, I guess she figures she will join in self defense!) hahaahah Welcome!

So you see fear as well in her persona, super point, I do too, and you're not surprised her daughters have deserted her, I'm not either but there may be a light at the end of the tunnel and it may not be a train, but the strong are saying nothing till they see. hahaahah

Malryn why do you say Frazier's The Golden Bough is unacceptable?

OH GOOD point, Malryn on the 2 pound coin "offering."

On your point on the dove and the glass I first thought she was seeing the dove, as well as life, thru a glass darkly, but it's not a dark glass, it's a distorted glass, (and so, in my opinion, is her viewpoint, so that fits) but she can change shape at will there. Two doves took Aeneas to the Golden Bough, so I guess we better watch out that window with her.

Marvelle, I'm not convinced just yet, sneaking suspicions but not convinced that the narrator is an "Unreliable Narrator," but I appreciate your bringing that up, do you want to explain what it is for those who were not in Remains and might not be conversant with the concept? (I had never heard of it before Remains).

Lou, that's a sharp eye on the Kills thing and an even sharper one Viogert with the S left off stuff, I missed the Kills thing, I don't know why!

notice how I'm taking ownership of all the knowledge and creative thinking you all are doing?? It makes me feel better!!!!

THAT is the goal of every book discussion we mount here, many many thanks!

Viogert thank you for describing this new 2 pound coin, after I read your description, I realize d I HAVE one, I brought 2 of each kind home for the children, do you think I can find it to scan it in? ER....

hahaha, good point on her writing to herself and nobody else, we normally would not see this at all, even if we knew her, it's her subconscious or something, letting it all hang out.

What? Viogert? "The school was in Sevenoaks??!!??

hahahaha

Isn't that where Knole is, isn't Knole a "numbers house?" I try every year to get there and have failed continually, want to see it.

Marvelle, thanks for another reference to drowning, there seem to be a lot of references to water and drowning maybe we need to keep track of them, too!

Malryn, what did you mean about Candida and the old brown Christmas tree?

Great questions and answers, Marvelle!

Great points, Lou on the solitary life references, and their possible connection somehow symbolically to the SOLITAIRE game, and her possible sins of omission! I know you have labored over that symbolism, I am following YOUR lead there and where you take us, I have no earthly clue but it's nagging me, too, now! hahahaha

Aeneas left Troy, carrying his father, Anchises, on his shoulders, and leading his son, Ascanius, by the hand; his wife Creusa, followed them, but was lost. Her ghost told him the destiny that awaited him.

Where's our Pedln today? Carolyn in Norway, can't wait, as a Drabble fan, to hear your thoughts here! Vanessa, where art thou?

We have a lot of people who signed up who haven't made it in here yet, the floor is still open for your thoughts on the first 86 pages, and, believe it or not, there's a whole lot more to say!

Friday we begin looking at the next section- to the End of Part I, so we've only got two more days on this first part. Plenty of time to jump in, if I do say so, myself, the water's fine, and you're more ...oops did I mention WATER? haahahah You're more than welcome!

Tisi

Tisi, Ginny, whoever you are at the moment, when the narrator takes her first walk "around her new estate", she sees "particularly disgusting" things under the motorway, including "a sad and browning Christmas tree, which has been there ever since I first arrived", which has weathered two winters. "Will it outlast my own sojourn?" she says on Page 55. This same Christmas tree appears later in the book. I'll wait to mention that.

From Viogert's post early this morning here in Eastern U.S.A.

"16. isn't 'Golden Bough' dead mistletoe? A ancient magical plant with roots in another tree? J.G.Frazer wrote a big book of that name that is now 'unacceptable', (according to MD in OCEL)"

That's why I asked why Frazer's book is unacceptable.

Mal

Definitely Tisi at the moment, do you attach anything symbolic to the tree at this point, that was what I meant?

Thank you for calling my attention to Viogert's earlier mentioning of the word "unacceptible," I have commented on the mistletoe part of it earlier.

I wonder if Narrator sees herself AS a Fury, we need to go back and look at all the times she quotes from the Aeneid on Tisiphone, that segment, the exsomnis quote and see what it's in reference to.

One thing Narrator says, I came in here to say, is right on:

Latin is a serious subject. You can't play around with Latin. I have a respect for Latin.

Yes'm, she's right, but when I saw that I wondered if that is the FIRST time she mentions respect for anything. She follows that quickly by saying "maybe all Classics teachers are excellent." (WRONG) "They sing in the dark and shore up the ruins. They play with tragic brilliance the endgame."

I would like to know what you all think she means by "play with tragic brilliance the endgame."

Tisi

Only as related to what Marvelle posted about evergreens, Tisi.

Mal

Yes, I made two earlier posts about the Christmas tree and Mal later remarked on it so we're on the same track that way. I noted pages 55 and 57 where the tree is mentioned and I also connected evergreens, such as the Christmas tree and mistletoe, to the golden bough in quite recent posts. Frazer's 'golden bough' -- not the book but the bough -- is in dispute because historians say that the bough historically was used as a supplicant's wand and not as a challenge as Frazer thought.

Pat, so glad you're here in the discussion. I appreciate the work involved in keeping up with our references and enjoy your comments immensely.

Ginny, you aren't taking credit for our thoughts. I see you as gathering together our ideas from the four directions and summing them up in a (sort of) organized fashion. I always look for your posts for that reason -- to see what we're saying and thinking. I'll do another post on the unreliable narrator but first will check my crib notes on "Remains",

Lou, please do tell us your thoughts on solitaire. You've piqued my interest with your fab insights.

Marvelle

Definition from mapage.noos.fr: "The unreliable narrator can be a child, one with limited knowledge, or limited mental capacity, or with a reason to fool readers or iteself. The result is that the readers must look beyond for clues in the narration that let us know what is going on. (emphasis mine)

The clues in the narration are deliberately planted by the author.

From notesinthemargin.org: "A narrator may be reliable or unreliable. If the narrator is reliable, the reader accepts without serious question the statements of fact and judgment. If the narrator is unreliable, the reader questions or seeks to qualify the statements of fact and judgment."

_______________________________________________

I've noted in earlier posts that the narrator of "The Seven Sisters" is unreliable and I pointed out sections where she admits to being unreliable. We have also seen where she says one thing one moment and then contradicts or changes her statement at a later moment. But what is the purpose of an author deliberately choosing an unreliable narrator?

_______________________________________

What I said in "Remains" holds true for how I see the narration in "The Seven Sisters" but the gender of the narrator changes --

QUOTE 'Since we can't take what she says as reliable, we can't swallow her statements whole either as to what she feels, or what she sees, or what she perceives. We are left to question what is happening and we must also question the narrator.

'It is a good technique when an author wants the reader to consider the themes and issues of the novel. It requires a good deal of work from the reader to not accept things at face value. Therein lies the impossibility of consensus for we each will consider the themes and issues and pull from our own viewpoints and experiences to reach our individual opinions. I fully expect some of my opinions to change through reading the insights of other posters.' END QUOTE

______________________________________________

I do expect my opinions to change throughout the discussion of the book. Discussion in a group helps me clarify my thinking and to see from another person's eyes -- it expands my horizons.

We've already started to consider issues concerning women. Women may outnumber men in the world but we are in many ways a minority since our voices have only recently been heard. IMO we are a small club and if one woman experiences a crisis, we all can feel and understand her experience.

Yet with an unreliable narrator as in "The Seven Sisters", my constant questions, which change as I read, include 'who is she; what is she experiencing; what has she done and is doing; why is she telling me this; what is happening here; what is the truth and is there any hypocrisy?' Your questions may be different.

Marvelle

Thank, you, Marvelle, for the Unreliable Narrator information, the wonderful quote on all of us assimilating the creative energy here as a whole comes from Lou2, who HAS to be one of our brightest new participants of the year! (And WE’VE got her, hahahah right here with us). And I love it and all the ideas here, as well. Yes I did see the exchange on the evergreen, but since the query was not directed at you by name, I thought I'd ask what was meant, thank you and Malryn for clearing that up.

I see several of you talking about GUILT, I'm really not seeing it, what instances of the narrator's feeling guilt do you all see beyond the "sins of omission?" I don't take that seriously, myself, I think it's just a glib reference to the General Confession, sort of a way to say "I know this reference," and I hope to heaven that's not (as some of you have suggested) ALL her literary references are.

Tisi

"They play with tragic brilliance the endgame" as applied to Latin? As applied to the classics? Endgame of what? Surely not chess. Endgame of an "extended process", as the dictionary says? Endgame of a dead language? Endgame of life? This has to do with nearing death?

She says of Latin teachers, "They sing in the dark and shore up the ruins." She's talking about herself. The tragic brilliance the narrator speaks of comes because the teacher, so to speak, knows someone's going to win and someone will lose.

She's facing her mortality? Going to make the best of it by singing in the dark and shoring up the ruins? Well, I don't know; I can only guess.

Drabble chose to write this part of the book in the first person singular. The narrator is figuring out things of the past by writing in a diary in a stream of consciousness way. One doesn't make a point by point outline for such writing or such thinking.

She may remember one thing one way one day and another way the next; come to one conclusion, then change it as time goes by, so, of course, she's unreliable as a narrator. How could she be expected to be otherwise? How can we really know her until she's jelled? All we can do is speculate right now.

Drabble knew this about her character, and this is why she uses this devise. She also knows what stage she's at. She's showing her character at a stage of indeterminacy in her life. What better way to do it than this?

I suspect that as Candida grows stronger in herself, the author will present her in a much different way.

Mal

Marvelle, I think it's a good idea consider water, drowning and guilt - before we turn to the next section. It's all about the suicide, self-inflicted guilt and punishment, isn't it? I agree that M. Drabble has constructed Candida's story, strongly grounded in the Aeneid...leaving the work to us to consider or to ignore and enjoy the story at face value, But I also believe that to really appreciate what MD. has accomplished, AND to understand the protagonist, we NEED to consider some of the clues she has planted. And also because they are SO delicious.

From one of the links provided by one of you (there are so many, I can't be sure, I copied this...

"The Cumaean Sibyl wrote her prophecies on leaves, which she then placed at the mouth of her cave. If no one came to collect them, they were scattered by winds and never read. Written in complex, often enigmatic verses, these "Sibylline Leaves" were sometimes bound into books."

Do you see a connection, a rather strong connectin between this description of Sibyl's "style" and Drabble's? Leaving prophecies on leaves for others to "collect"...but if they do not, they are scattered by the winds and never read!"
"You reap what you sow" - is that one of the messages here? Our suffering protagonist has admitted that her sins are those of omission, not of comission. So, how is she complicit in Jane's death? It's all about this suicide, isn't it? Jane has not been propterly buried, as I see it. Now one is interested in what has caused her death...everyone has moved on and no one is mourning. It is as if she did not exist. Aeneas makes his journey into the underworld to bury his father. Do you see Candida searching for what has led her to this place? Why is she here? Would she be wandering through the underbelly of London if it weren't for Jane's suicide? Her marriage might have failed (or worse, continued!)...but she wouldn't be here, desperately attempting to write her way to understanding her own role, her guilt.

What was her role exactly? We don't know that yet,(can't wait to get to the next section tonight) but there are more clues as yet unexamined in these pages...let's not let them be carried away by the wind.

Mrs. Andrew Wilton, at her husband's request, taught a class in French Conversation. Jane was in this class. We are told that Mrs. Wilton can still her her student's voice reading out La Fontaines's fable. The opening lines of this fable are important enough to to write out in the journal.

Le Lièvre et Les Grenouilles
The Hare and the Frogs

Un lièvre en son gîte songeait,
A hare was dreaming in his home
Car que faire un gîte, a moins que l'on ne songe?
Because what else is there to do at home, unless one dreams?
Dans un profond ennui, ce lièvre se plongeait.
Into deep boredom, this hare is plunged.
Cet animal est triste, et la crainte le ronge.
This animal is sad, and fear consumes him.

I think these lines go a long way, describing the bored, sad, fearful teacher, but also the depressed child. Had she not been so absorbed with her own unhappiness or boredom, or dreams, would she have noticed Jane's depression?

There's more to this fable...which Drabble leaves us to read on our own...more clues for us to follow if we are so inclined.

The hares are persecuted by the other animals, they spend their time in hiding. One day wild horses stamped towards them...and in a panic, the hares...jumped into a nearby lake, determined to kill themselves, rather than live on in fear.

ps. Ginny, will you post your suggestion in the Great Books Upcoming discussion?
Mal, we were posting together...looking forward to the next section

I scream! Candida is not guilty. If she thinks she's at fault for anything right now; she'll get over it. It's obvious to me that this gal is not a quitter. She's going to opt for life, not any kind of watery, guilt-ridden, self-pitying, self-inflicted death.

She says about Jane on Pages 76 and 77:
"Jane drowned herself on my birthday. This was a meaningless coincidence, but the consequence of it is that I can never forget her death."

"But I don't think Jane Richards drowned herself on my birthday to punish me. I don't think she was thinking about me at all . . . ."
Does this sound like a woman who feels guilty in any way about the suicide of Anthea's daughter? It doesn't to me.

You know, Julia is mentioned frequently in this first section of the book, and we've scarcely noticed her. Don't you think the references to Julia are important? What do they mean?

Mal

Question 6 What would you say it the tone of this book so far?

tone "…the attitudes toward the subject and toward the audience implied in a literary work…”

First I had to remind myself what tone is… and found this definition at notes in the margin site.. love that site!!.. Just hit me, we have a link/section on definitions here, don’t we?? Dah!!! As my grandson says!!

Joan says: But I also believe that to really appreciate what MD. has accomplished, AND to understand the protagonist, we NEED to consider some of the clues she has planted. And also because they are SO delicious.

I have been thinking the author was playing with us here. And I’ve been concerned that her attitude was “understand this if you dare” or “bet you can’t get this” or on the other hand as Mal says “what you see is what you get” there’s nothing here and we’re digging when the author hasn’t buried anything. (Mal, if I’ve misunderstood what you’re saying, please correct me.) Joan, your statement above has given me heart! I’ve been digging a hole and you’ve been tasting, savoring the read.

So, what IS the tone of this book? What is MD’s attitude toward her readers? I DO get hung up in the weirdest places, don’t I????

Lou

I've been misunderstood, as usual. I'm not saying "What you see is what you get". Nothing ever is.

I am saying that if a reader who never heard of the Aeneid picks up this book, there is a story in it that reader can understand because it's a universal story. So is the Aeneid in a classical way. By using the Aeneid as background, Drabble has enhanced this universal story she has written.

Remember, though, that ordinary readers can interpret what a writer like this has to say without digging into references in the way that we are doing. There are truths that are common to us all, regardless of status or education. That's something I found out when I was forced to go off on my own in my elevated, fancy education (Smith College, New England Conservatory of Music, and graduate study), rarified, head in a literary cloud way. The fact of the matter is that I learned from those ordinary people I met on my journey, perhaps as much as I've learned from books, and I've learned that these people do understand a lot more than we give them credit for.

My experience was not typical. I was addicted to alcohol, for example; have spent a night in jail, have dipped into an underworld few of you here might know, have bummed around with people who might have frightened me if I'd been as timid as I would have been had I been in my right mind. My experience has been a combination of Candida's and Julia's. I've done a lot and seen a lot in my lifetime, and it's influenced the way I read and think.

Now I'm of the mind that I should retire from this group.

Mal

Sorry, Mal, didn't mean to imply anything there. I'll try to be more careful... Maybe, it was me who was seeing/thinking what you see is what you get. Please, don't let my statement make you even consider retiring from this group. It was entirely my mistake. You have so much to offer, I'll be more careful, I promise.

Lou

Malryn -- there are a lot of different stories about Aeneas & they are not all as glowing as the one Virgil tells. In the "Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology" an entry says:
"Long before Virgil made him a hero, Aeneas was revered by the Romans. Connected with the cult of Aeneas was that of Anna Perenna - sister of Dido, who sought asylum with Aeneas & who was persecuted by Lavinia his wife, (mother of Silvius) through jealousy. Anna Perenna drowned herself in the river Numicus".

Also another source suggests Aeneas was on the point of killing Helen of Troy - it didn't say why - she was entitled to live there, but he had second thoughts. Another says he took seven years to reach Carthage from Troy.

Margaret Drabble edited "The Oxford Companion to Literature" - she didn't write any of it. The entry for Frazer & his "Golden Bough" was written by the classics expert. The poor opinion of Frazer is echoed in Robert Graves' "The White Goddess". Graves also describes how the number "7" was sacred to the ancients - seven days in a week, seven pillars of wisdom, seven main planets & seven sacred trees. "It's origin" he writes, of the number "7", "is probably, but not necessarily Babylonian".

Seven is also a meaningful number in the bible.

I am glad someone translated the poem the girls were learning in Candida's French Class. Candida speaks of Jane as being "plain". Is there a guilt thing there because Jane was being subtly bullied by the other girls and Candida was too distracted with her own life to notice. She had taken the class reluctantly and perhaps not paid due attention to her pupils?

The reference to Greek Classics all the way through the book may only have significance in as far as it was through Candida attending the night class that she begins to meet new people and to make a new life for herself. Drabble interconnects the piece they were studying with Candida's Journey. It is very clever and I doubt whether the ordinary reader would bother to research the classics references. This again makes Drabble in my opinion a scholarly writer whether she denies it or not Drabble is a scholar!

Carolyn

Mal: I agree with you that the Narrator isn't guilty of murdering Jane Richards, but the lines you quoted do tell me she's guilty of complete self-absorption. I don't think she was thinking about me at all . . . ." Good grief! A child commits suicide and the Narrator decides the child didn't do it to punish her---a onetime teacher. How would the child have known when the Narrator's birthday was? Gad Zooks...how self-centered can this Narrator be?

I guess I don't get hung on the "unreliable narrator" because I think everyone who tells "his/her side" of any story is by default an "unreliable narrator." It's my belief that there are always at least two sides/versions of every story...and often more. The truth is probably often somewhere in between/among them all.

Joan: I don't understand your comment that the Narrator wouldn't have ended up in London if Jane Richards had not committed suicide? Do you mean that that was the catalyst that ended the marriage...or? You said : Why is she here? Would she be wandering through the underbelly of London if it weren't for Jane's suicide? Her marriage might have failed (or worse, continued!)...but she wouldn't be here, desperately attempting to write her way to understanding her own role, her guilt. Can you expound on that a bit so I can grasp why you think the Narrator chose London because of Jane Richards's suicide...or do I have it all bolixed up?

Jane, when you're close to drowning (and believe me, this woman was), and holding onto the flimsiest piece of flotsam to stay alive, you don't have much time or strength to think of anyone but yourself and your own survival.

Candida wasn't guilty of anything very important, but with so many people telling her she is, she hasn't yet convinced herself of that.

The numbers 7 and 11 are winners in shooting craps. (No, I never have.) And aren't there 7 wonders of the world? Interesting stuff. I want to know more.

Mal

"Seven is the number of completion and symbolizes unity and perfection. Seven was a sacred number of the Jews and was used in religious observances and daily life throughout the history of Israel and in prophetic words concerning the end-times. It symbolizes wholeness, a final completion that is just about to reveal itself and be made manifest. There are seven days in the week, seven colors in the rainbow, seven continents, seven notes on a musical scale and has meaning much beyond its numerical value. The dominant number in the Apocalypse is the number seven. The 7 churches of Asia represent the whole church, Babylon sits on the 7 mountains of earth, He had 7 stars in His hand, the 7 headed beast, 7 horns, 7 eyes, 7 kings, 7 angels, 7 plagues and more."

I'll try to redefine the unreliable narrator because it's an important technique. It has to do with the author choosing to write the narrator as unreliable and to leave clues in the text for the reader to understand what's really happening in the story and what it actually means. It gets you more involved in the story and to consider issues and themes more deeply. You can understand a basic storyline without attending to the clues but may miss the actual meaning of the story? Thus, these techniques tell a story on different levels; the surface storyline and the meaning lying under the surface. Like Robert Frost's iceberg.

Does this help? If it still confuses perhaps someone else can define it?

I quite strongly believe that the Diary is an imitation of Virginia Woolf's Diary; Woolf who filled the pockets of her jacket with stones and downed herself. All that darkness! The narrator is experimenting with how to tell her story and she's having a hard go of it.

Didn't the Hare intend to jump in the pond but it's presence frightened the Frogs who jumped into the pond instead? Or am I mixed up about that?

Marvelle

Oh Marvelle! Wonderful points. I have no idea on the hare and the frog, intent versus fright and the results, wow.

I don't know!

And I loved this! Thus, these techniques tell a story on different levels.

I hate to admit this but I have never read Virginia Woolf's Diary and got so disenchanted with her when we read The Hours you couldn't drag me to the movie if you used a steamroller. Will you keep us up on all of the things that (like darkness) seem to occur in both, because I don't have any knowledge of it? Thank you for bringing that here.

Well, here we are on the eve of the next section. I'm looking forward in the morning to hearing what you think!!

Malryn, your question "Endgame of an "extended process", as the dictionary says?" is interesting in the context of this book, I think? I'd like to consider it as we go. I think "Endgame" might be significant.

Joan P! I loved your take on the Sibyl's prophecies! Thank you so much for translating the Hare and the Frogs!

Interesting!! More water and drowning rather than live in fear. Wasn't it Aesop who said "better a crust in comfort than a feast in fear?" not sure, more water more suicide and not a coincidence, I think, many thanks. I wish I knew what the author meant by all these allusions to other literature.

(Yes, I will nominate it and see if anybody is intersted!)

Lou2, I loved your interpretation of "tone" and Question 6. I thought I knew what "tone" was, too, but I ALSO had been thinking the author was playing with us!! Yes! That was my first thought when reading it the first time. And I don't know why. And I also have been concerned with her attitude of "understand this if you can, " evinced, in my opinion, by the huge amounts of untranslated phrases sprinkled throughout the book, en effet. Not to mention the truly confusing time sequences and flash backs, it's hard to get a straight handle on anything.

What IS the TONE of this thing? It escapes me!! Here is a nice Glossary of Literary Terms from CUNY and they say Tone is, what you did, Lou (where did you say you found your definition, I like it? What is the "margin site?")

Tone: the writer's attitude toward the material and/or readers. Tone may be playful, formal, intimate, angry, serious, ironic, outraged, baffled, tender, serene, depressed, etc.

It's such an elusive thing, I can't get a handle on the writer's attitude toward the material, it seems as if the author wants us to…like this person despite her pouring out her worst, as if in expiation to US the reader, a plea, a proud stubborn plea, to the reader. I realize that the character is writing this to herself, ostensibly, but we're not the character, we're the reader, why does the author present it to US to read? And what are we supposed to think? Are we supposed to be sympathetic? If so, are we? Are YOU? Has the writer succeeded?

Wonderful things to think about, I like to read everything you have to say and think about it during the evening, and in the mornings often I'll wake up with some half cooked idea, but they always SEEM so bright!@ hahahahaha

THEN! Haahahaha

Viogert, thank you for the additional versions of Aeneas in history, they are very interesting! And also the references to 7, and you also on 7 references, Carolyn and Malryn.

Carolyn, I liked your take on the place the Vergil class held in the book! We know it's there for a reason. The NY Times article had a very interesting cartoon to the review of this book, I hope to get it in here tomorrow, it shows seven women in togas with books and glasses, obviously tourists, looking at ruins.

I'm kind of struck by several things on this rereading of the first part, here's another one, (page 21)

"If I break my routine I will die. I must measure out my days correctly , as I promised myself I would, or liberation will never be mine."

What does that mean?

She says again she will "measure out her days" on page 60.

And here's another cryptic one, "I haven't played Solitaire for two days now. I congratulate myself. Writing is a good substitute." (page 24) There's that solitaire again, Lou! And what is she SAYING?

I liked Marvelle's quote of herself on the Unreliable Narrator, "Since we can't take what she says as reliable, we can't swallow her statements whole either as to what she feels, or what she sees, or what she perceives. We are left to question what is happening and we must also question the narrator."

There are so many voices in this thing I don't know which to listen to! Most unlike Remains.

Jane, I liked what you said, that the narrator is "guilty of self-absorption." Do you think she's aware of it?

I'm kind of confused with some of the time sequences here. For instance at the top of page 76, next to the gloss "She remembers her hysteria and fretfulness and she regrets them,"

The text reveals she has "much to be ashamed about." She had "tantrums in those last few years in Suffolk." Slept in the afternoons. Behaved in a mildly deranged and menopausal manner" (boy nothing makes me more irritated than people claiming behavior because of "menopause.") shouted at the groundsman, withdrew my "wifely support from my husband and gazed at my handsome daughter with envy and distrust. …I moved out of my husband's bed."

When did all this happen? It seems to be before she reports to us of Jane's death?

Was it after she…found out about the affair? But I thought the affair came AFTER and as a result of the death?

That doesn't seem particularly clear, to me?

I think you all have done a super job with only the first 86 pages of this thing, you can pat yourselves on the back for your thorough and insightful thoughts, iwhat WILL you come up with tomorrow!

Can't wait to see,

ginny

"I have measured out my life with coffee spoons." -- The Love Song of J. Arthur Prufrock by T.S. Eliot

For the complete poem CLICK HERE

Marvelle

GREAT reference, Marvelle, well done! (If I mentioned Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos, would everybody scream? haahaha Probably, so I won't, I like the coffee spoons better, note the cover)...(love the sagging chin, too!)

Carolyn, I meant to mention this earlier, too, good point on "She had taken the class reluctantly and perhaps not paid due attention to her pupils? "

I got hung up there on the PE Class she taught (because one year I did, too haahahah and it set off a mine of memories) and missed that till you called attention to it!

ginny

Prufrock is a middle-aged, timid and lonely man and in conflict with his duality and with society. He mourns the lost dreams of his youth. He decides he's no Hamlet to contemplate suicide but he feels he's wasted his life and he knows death is waiting. Some people measure their days by the sun; Prufrock uses a coffee spoon.

And look, look, the epigraph to the poem is from Dante.

I forgot to mention that Woolf's Diary reflected her various moods. She wrote her darkest thoughts and fears in it even on her last day, and I think her suicide note too, and then she walked out to the river to drown herself.

Marvelle

Did she also use stones in her pockets?

Tisi

Hi, all! I’ve finally arrived after being laid low by a nasty virus. HOWEVER, it took me ten times as long to read all these posts as it did to read to p. 86, and tomorrow I’ll be behind again!

What wonderful thoughts and insights. I’m glad I have Tisi and the bookies to read beneath the surface. I think Viogert, Malryn, Joan have the right take on CW. I like her. I didn't find it slow going at all. Here are some of my thoughts, though some of them will not seem too deep, and they’re fairly disjointed.

Word: Drab. I hate saying that because I like CW, but it still came to mind.

Question #2. She seems very self-effacing, but I think she is too severe a critic of herself, as many of us tend to be (or at least I do). (I don’t see anything wrong with avoiding people, however.)

I find it not surprising since Andrew was the "golden boy" and she was rather a background figure with low self-esteem that somehow she would find a way to blame herself, especially since no one else took up for her.

#3. The glosses have a detached, ironic tone to them, like the sentence about the bleating, whining tone.

I can very much imagine myself writing something and the next day criticizing it (in fact, I do). I think most are capable of looking more or less objectively at themselves, their thoughts. And I have used third person, usually ironically or sarcastically, for the same reason. I don’t regard them as separate voices at all, but simply different aspects of the same voice.

And there is really no reason for her to mention her name in her journal—I don’t use mine (maybe sometimes I do when I am lecturing myself). And on p. 22 she hints at it, saying that the Health Club people "sometimes pronounce my name a little oddly, making me sound more like an illness than a woman."

Ginny: I see this on page 3: "I hope I may discover some more general purpose as I write. I will have faith that something or someone is waiting for me on the far shore." I think that is exactly why she is writing this journal, and it’s why I started a journal this year and why I was so excited to be starting the year with this book. Maybe I am naïve.

I totally agree with Malryn: When a woman does what Candida did, though, there comes a time when she doesn't know where she's going and what, if anything, there is to live for. And that’s where she is right now.

Ginny: So she, hung up in a jar not a basket, according to Petronius, said I wish to die." I think anybody can see why? What does it mean that Narrator wants to hear that said to her? Maybe she just wants to hear it, witness that myth, though the phrase "to hear my endless fate" implies that even though she has freedom, her life hasn’t come together—it is a succession of pointless days. She is waiting to discover some point to it all and has yet to find it.

Question 10 in the heading (I can’t see it, but I think I know what it was): Because she doesn’t have a lot of people to confide in, she is afraid that she will blurt out something that she doesn’t want to. She feels no "connect" with Sally and doesn’t want to let her know the inner Candida, but fears she might let down her defenses anyway.

I think I would tell her to stop being so judgmental and critical of everybody. She’s not critical of Anaïs, nor Mrs. Jerrold. I think she’s pretty clear sighted and calls it like it is.

Anger, drama queen, emotional wreck? Far from it. I second Malryn:

I also understand Candida's need to go where no one knew her and where she knew no one. It was not running away; it was starting fresh where there were no memories or reminders and where no family members or friends would take it upon themselves to hurt and belittle her, and she was fed up with both, I would assume.

Why stay somewhere you will be looked down on and pitied, when actually you feel just the opposite—liberated and relieved! Plus it is hard NOT to have your outlook colored by the negativity.

I do see resentment about not being paid for her work (as if it were worthless) and the Hungarian goulash episode. Money is a sore point with CW—she never had any, she had to pretend that there were no money problems, and she didn’t get paid for her work.

Hear, hear, Viogert: At this stage in the metamorphosis of a 60-year old woman – given the chance of solitude - false friends & time-wasters are the last thing women need, & she knew that

I can identify with feeling like her social calendar is overwhelming with Sally today and Julia next week, with not calling Anais for fear of being boring, and being "wary about making friends with the kind of person who would want to be friends with a person like me."

Lou2, I’m with you on puzzlement over CW’s unfamiliarity with things modern. She’s a little too out of it—she hasn’t been on Mars, after all, and she watches TV. Surely her kids had Walkmen (Walkmans?). I can understand wondering how to buy a lottery ticket, though.

Carolyn: When my self esteem was at its lowest I became the most judgemental of people. Very interesting thought, good point. Also one is very critical of oneself at such times, so it seems logical to be critical of others also.

Ginny: Do you think that maybe FEAR is a part of CW’s personality too? She only tells us over and over how fearful she is, her heart beating with pleasure or fear at the thought of buying a lottery ticket; after moving in she says, "I felt fear, and I felt hope."

GOSH don't you feel sorry for this conflicted unhappy person! Heck, no, I don’t! I just identify. When you have been a nonperson all your life, it takes guts to set off to find yourself.

Viogert, The Flower Shop man spoke an incomprehensible cockney.

Marvelle: if you go back and read the first 86 pages you see have cleverly the hints are made about murder. I think it was murder in her heart (and suicide is also murder). Whoa! I feel like either we are reading different books or I am really obtuse! All I recall her saying about Jane was that she liked her, "poor hare," and that she drown on CW’s birthday.

Animals: the Emerald horse, birds (the egret/pigeon, "the birdless realms of Avernus," the parrot/macaw Mrs. Jerrold), the "pet rat" which we have yet to hear about, frogs (La Fontaine, Frog and Firkin)—what to make of them. (check out the second description of the F&F)

It appears that Aesop’s hares were going to commit suicide; La Fontaine’s were walking by the pond fearfully heading home because they heard a noise when the frogs jumped back in the water.

Strange gloss on p. 36: "She thinks of the seedless grapes, and of the sour." Julia is childless, but what about sour?

Ginny: Would any of you happen to know as Joan P asked earlier, if Drabble’s own children are alienated from her? I’m asking if this is fiction or autobiography, I guess, there’s a lot of hurt here that you might say is genius if invented and maybe not if real, see what I mean? The same question occurred to me and I found this off-beat essay on marriage (and divorce) by Drabble’s current husband, Michael Holroyd. It would appear from that that she lived with her children after her divorce.

And yes, Woolf filled her pockets with stones and drowned herself in the River Ouse near her home in Sussex.

Mme!!! Is it really YOU? YAY!!

Isn't this some discussion!!??!!? Aren't they the greatest, what POVs!!!

So glad you're back and LOOKIT at all those good points YOU made, I'm going to print that buzzard out, and HARK! She LIVED with her chidren, must go read, many thanks and more tomorrow (good heavens it's past the witching hour, maybe I'll just stay here and see who comes in firat in the morning!

YAY!

ginny

I have GOT to shut this down and go to BED!

Ah but dear Mme, as I pointed out earlier, yes, she's not critical of Anais or Mrs. Jerrold, they're new. She's critical of everything and everybody old, including her children, oldest friends, and...mother.

Tisi the Sleepless

We talked about the Hare and the Frogs earlier in this discussion. Marvelle posted the La Fontaine poem and a translation. I posted the Aesop fable La Fontaine took as basis for his work. The horses frightened the hares, who frightened the frogs, with the frogs ending up in the water. The moral to the Aesop fable is: "There are people worse off than you are."

The quote below is from a interview with Virginia Woolf talking about mental illness:
"I was never given a name for my own illness. It felt like being overwhelmed by something beating inside my brain: a whirring of wings in the head, I once called it.

"It felt much more like a physical disease than anything like unhappiness or worry. One doctor said it was all to do with the glands in the back of my neck, and the rest didn't seem to know what they were doing.

"So I think the best answer to your question is: I drew on my own experiences of mental illness in writing about Septimus's shell shock, to show how in those days people were intolerant of mental illness and ignorant about how to treat it, socially as much as medically.

"Yours,

"Virginia"
Virginia Woolf knew she was mentally ill, or at least that there was something going on that was wrong inside her head. Did that illness cause her death?

I'm going to say that Anthea's daughter, Jane, was mentally ill. On Page 75 the narrator says,
"Her name was Jane, plain Jane. She wasn't plain, she was not unattractive, but she did have an unfortunate problem. She was partially sighted, and she had a very severe squint. One of her eyes seemed to roll sideways, and it stared, as it were, right out of the side of her head. It was very disconcerting. I think an operation had gone badly wrong when she was a little girl. The School, if course, got some of its funding from the Hamilcar Henson Trust for the Blind, which made special provision for the partially sighted. That was why Jane had been sent to Holling House in the first place."
Here's a young girl with an obvious, visual handicap, who probably had a crush on Andrew Wilton. I imagine Andrew was especially kind to her because of his infatuation with her mother, and she interpreted it as love. I suggest that Jane became so depressed about her mother's and Andrew Wilton's illicit relationship that she put stones in her pocket and drowned herself. I suggest that the combination of a handicap, which made it difficult for her to compete with other girls and to get the attention of boys, and her crush, caused Jane to be mentally ill and subsequently to drown herself; that she was a victim of Headmaster Wilton, just as his wife Candida was.

Since it's already Friday I'm going to say that Ida Jerrold is a prophetess, a sibyl. I'm also going to say that the rocket salad our narrator had at lunch with Julia is made with arugula. Rocket = Arugula, in case anyone here does not know.

Menopause can make some women very, very sick. My pre-menopausal daughter is a case in point, so was one of my sisters. Sickness can cause strange and erratic behavior. Some women have reason to say what Candida did.

P.S. And what if I said Partenope to you? I believe Aeneas knew who she was.

Mal

Ginny: Sorry I missed your pointing out that she is only critical of old people (from her former life). Good point. Except she didn’t like the older woman who was trying to befriend her in the gym. Figured she saw her as ‘someone who needed attention.’

Malryn, I was just trying to clarify Marvelle’s question in post 184 at 6:20 tonight: "Didn't the Hare intend to jump in the pond but its presence frightened the Frogs who jumped into the pond instead? Or am I mixed up about that?" Plus, I think Joan combined the two.

Oui, Madame, mais my post was not in response to yours.

I'm glad you're here!

Mal

Virginia Woolf had 7 brothers and sisters.

Did we note that Candida has 7 letters?

Susan, so glad you're here!

We agree that the moral to La Fontaine's fable -- which is the fable quoted in "The Seven Sisters" and not Aesops -- is that there are people worse off. It is pertinent to the novel and it seems to be a reminder to the narrator who is the one that thinks of La Fontaine's fable of 'The Hare and the Frogs'. I wonder though, who is the "poor hare"? Is it necessarily Jane Richards or is it the narrator?

The self-blame of the narrator is so bad that she implies murder without confessing to it and she implies guilt for losing her former life/marriage/friends/children/status; that is the conflict. She implies it in such remembrances as being up to her knees in the Lady Pond which is the pond where Jane Richards drowned without a witness; there are many other hints that I've talked about before. If you don't see it, that's okay. I only understood the implications after I first read and was nagged by a feeling that something was going on underneath the story and I then had to have a second read.

My posted reaction to the novel's hints of guilt by deed or by heart was that the narrator felt guilty in her heart; because women are conditioned to feel guilty and society is conditioned to blame women.

It is wrong to be made to feel that way; it isn't healthy; but I think Drabble wanted us to see what women have to face in society and how we are our own worst critics.

We are supposed to see the conflict. I believe we are supposed to see the hints to murder in deed or heart and to realize what an absurd position a woman alone can be placed in. I think the messy emotions of the narrator are a natural reaction to her situation and a part of the healing process, if she's strong enough.

When I talk about not liking her messy emotions I hope I've been careful about drawing the line between private and public emotions. Private emotions are one thing but I don't like lengthy displays in public of negative or volatile emotions. I wouldn't be around someone for very long if she kept up public displays as we see in her private Diary. For one thing, any extended public drama shows a high level of selfishness and lack of consideration for others -- by way of attacking others, beating them up, with those emotions and not caring what the other person(s) may be going through in their own lives but are not saying.

I also don't like to call Virginia Woolf sick or mentally unbalanced or whatever the terminology is today. There is professional disagreement about whether she was 'insane' or just occasionally depressed. While I dislike the personality cult that has arisen around VW, she is an icon to women; she represents the desire of women to be themselves and to succeed in their calling or passion. She wrote with a woman's viewpoint about women's issues and interests. Woolf was under tremendous pressure and she succumbed to her depression.

My background is Eastern European and Native with a tendency towards melancholy. It is hard to appear publicly positive when you're melancholic. That song "Low Down Blues" says 'I'm so low down I can't see up'? But you have to keep singing until you can see the light up there. That is what I believe, or hope, the narrator is doing. Messy emotions? Certainly. Dramatic? Yes. Epic? No. But always natural.

Marvelle

Maybe someday this cold will disappear, so I can sleep. Wonder if my daughter's awake with her cold? I should call her up and invite her in for a party.

Hey, Marvelle, nobody else's emotions can beat you up if you don't react to them. Isn't that what Frankl says, or did I read you wrong? Candida is trying to straighten out in her head who put her on the blame rack; trying not to react to their judgmental, schadenfreude emotions.

About Solitaire,on Page 36, she says:
"They are a temptation to sin. That's what some people used to believe, and maybe they were right. My maternal grandparents were brought up in that faith, and I have inherited their sense of guilt. Playing for high stakes is more dangerous and more sinful than playing alone, but playing alone is not good for the soul."
Could the answers to Solitaire questions here be as simple as that? One thing sure, when you play electronic Solitaire, you can't check to see what your possibilities might have been, and you can't cheat. You also have to play alone, just as you do when you play Solitaire with cards. I have never, ever liked that game. I'll take Bridge any old day of any old week.

I don't think Margaret Drabble is writing about women, I think she writes about one woman -- herself -- through her character. Just as Candida figures things out by writing in her diary, Drabble is figuring things out by writing novels. A major theme in this book is aging, Margaret Drabble's aging through Candida. My sister in Maine as much as told me most of her other books are contemplations about the stage of life she was in at the time when she wrote them. Luckily, her conclusions can be applicable to others.

I wonder if my English professor brother-in-law has read Drabble? I'd really like to hear what he says. Of course, his main preoccupation was Shakespeare for years and years. He wrote his doctorate thesis on the Earl of Rochester. My former husband thought that was sinful. Takes all kinds to make a world, doesn't it?

Mal

Virginia Woolf
Certainly Mrs Woolf drowned herself with stones in her pockets, but she should be given a fair hearing. In the mid-80s, Stephen Trombley wrote "All That Summer She Was Mad: Virginia Woolf & her Doctors" that shed an entirely new light on her illness & her depression. Being treated by all these incompetent men - she probably felt she would never get well. Trombley uncovered the likelihood she suffered from iotrogenically induced sickness.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/malcolmi/doctors.htm

I am the last person in the world who would criticize anyone who was ill in the way that Virginia Woolf was. My use of the term, "mentally ill", in reference to her came directly from her interview. It has to be realized here that not only women, but men, have been affected by doctors who didn't and don't know what type of treatment to prescribe. I saw my elder son in awful seizures which were caused by his taking anti-psychotic medications as prescribed by his doctors when I helped him for five years in the 80's. These drugs made him sicker than he already was. I spent three years searching for a doctor for him who would give him something that would not literally paralyze him mentally and physically. I finally did -- in state that was not the one in which we lived. One thing sure, it's almost impossible to get proper medical care for mental or any type of illness when you don't have insurance or any money. He had neither, and I didn't have much of the latter.

Whatever the cause of Woolf's illness, the fact remains that she killed herself. So did Anthea's daughter, Jane. Since we are here to discuss Margaret Drabble's book, Jane's suicide interests me more at this moment than the suicide of Woolf.

Where is Ginny? I thought she'd have already been in with a slew of questions and comments this morning.

Mal

Thanks for the Holroyd link, MmeW. Don’t you just love his sense of humor??? No wonder MD married him even though she “swore” she’d never marry again. Ginny, excuse, Tisi, the site I found the definition of tone on is notesinthemargin, I believe I’ve seen it sited here before. Have you all discovered the internet public library? Ipl.org? It’s run by a university program for librarian, excuse me, information technology degrees. From there, I found a site with the Dryden translation of Aeneid and it has the Arguments. My Aeneid is from our Great Books set, translated by James Rhoades. So I printed these to tuck into our book. Ipl has wonderful links to… well, it’s a library!! Links to everything!! Organized library style.

Lou

Topics for your Consideration are UP!!!! Running behind, but 7 new and intriguing and super questions were put up earlier today, you may find one worthy of your extended thoughts,(some people including me are having a TIME getting in here today) and await everyone in the heading, (whaddya think?) More later on your wonderful comments, (when you guys post something, I have to go away and think about what you've said for a while) but you know I've always been "a little behind, " hahaahahh (I WISH!)

See you tonight!

Tisi

Question # 4. Candida is drowning her marriage. When you want to get rid of a bad marriage, you want no reminders of it like money or anything else.

Close to the end of my marriage, I deliberately dropped my diamond-platinum wedding ring down the garbage disposal. Get the symbolism?

Mal

Did it tear up the garbage disposal? If it had, the joke would have been on you, no? hahaahha

I'm one foot out the door but saw your comment and had to ask this one: it would seem to me that the best revenge in the case of a ring no longer wanted, especially if a person , like our heroine, could not afford to take a trip, and whinged about it in her diary all the time, would be to sell it and benefit by the money received?

Sort of a "take that, Bud," sort of thing, why should Candida not profit rather than throw away one more thing she might have made him pay for? She takes alimony, in fact wonders if he should be told of the windfall in case he'll stop, what's the difference?

I'm gone~!

Tisi the Avenger of Family ...what was it? Family...whatever

Golly you have all been so busy while I have been sleeping!

Two points - Virginia Woolf was bi polar. Having an intimate knowledge of this terrible disease everything I have ever read about her points to this fact. One of the most terrible things about the disease is that many sufferers do committ suicide. I knew a very wonderful intelligent young man who committed suicide two years ago because he had had enough of being tortured by his sick mind. Also in our local clinic there is a hand out for patients and Virginia Woolf is mentioned as being a sufferer of this disease while pointing out that some of our most creative people through the ages have suffered from Bi Polar disorder.

Secondly- while I was babysitting for my daughter the other night I picked up a parents magazine. There was an article on Post natal depression and a list of the symptoms. I was astounded to find the symptoms mirrored many of those suffered by women during menopause. I feel a lot of what Candida had suffered during the last years of her marriage was due to Menopausal symptoms. I know a woman - a most loving mother who took a snitch to her daughter and refused to attend her wedding. Her husband knowing this behaviour was totally out of character took her to the doctor and it was found she was suffering acute depression brought on by the menopause. She was given medication and a few months later happily took her place as mother of the bride at the wedding.

I feel Candida is now recovered from what I would say was depression and is beginning to live her life again. I don't however think the depression caused the marriage break up I just believe her unhappiness made the symptoms of menopause much worse. After her loss of self esteem during the later years of her marriage she is now taking faltering steps to regain her life and rebuild her self esteem.

Carolyn

No, it didn't tear up the garbage disposal, but it certainly ended the ring.

Let me see. I already knew how much settlement there would be (not enough) after a long marriage, and had a fleeting thought of selling the ring, but I wanted something more emphatic, a fierce and final closure. That's exactly what I got when I broke the yoke around my neck by getting rid of the ring on the fourth finger of my left hand.

Mal

Marvelle, thanks for responding so thoughtfully to my rather flip comment about murder. I particularly like My posted reaction to the novel's hints of guilt by deed or by heart was that the narrator felt guilty in her heart; because women are conditioned to feel guilty and society is conditioned to blame women.

It is wrong to be made to feel that way; it isn't healthy; but I think Drabble wanted us to see what women have to face in society and how we are our own worst critics.

Malryn, I have several solitaire games that allow you to "undo" a move, or several moves, or the whole game, if you want to see the "road not taken." But I have felt guilty about wasting hours playing solitaire (I keep saying it’s preventing Alzheimer’s), so that was my first reaction. Maybe she’s right: "playing alone is not good for the soul."

As far as dropping rings down disposals or into pools, I have far too much of my depression-era father in me to make such dramatic statements. I’d have sold it (though where, exactly do you do that)? But I love your "fierce and final closure," Mal.

# 5. No, that's not Margaret Drabble speaking. That's Julia and a million other two bit writers like her. Ask me. I know. Ha ha!

Mal

# 6. That's exactly the same question I asked myself. Despite years and years of training as a musician with a lot of performing, paid for and not, and having had my paintings shown in galleries (some of which sold), and things I'd written published in magazines and small publications before some years of darkness set in and I and my life fell apart, in that order, the only thing I thought I was qualified to do was cook, wash floors, do somebody's laundry and clean bathrooms.

Mal

Remember how we have all been waiting to learn narrator’s name? Were you disappointed when it was revealed? Did you see symbolism there? I think my anticipation killed the moment for me… even the second time around.

I’ve been keeping track of the engagement ring… mentioned on Pages 54, 87, 129 then she left it in the pool pages 162 and 3. Who mentioned it could be the Golden Bough? She is leaving on her trip, into the Underworld? She needs to be able to return? No that won’t track, because she needs it with her, not to get rid of it… Turnus is wounded and begging for his life, Aeneas is about to give in and then sees Pallas’s girdle, goes into a rage and finishes Turnus. That won’t work.. she didn’t steal the ring, it was given to her. She could pick it up with her toes, so it wasn’t beyond recovery. Was it a brick, like the ones she had retrieved from the pool when she was young? A brick she chose not to retrieve? This time she is giving the gift of that ring in this new marriage to the blue water? “I divorced myself from Andrew and married the blue water”. So what’s the blue water she married? Not the pool water she dropped the ring into, right? “So my ring lies drowned in the shallow deep”. OK, she was greeted by her name on the way into the Health Club.. “I think it was significant…”, is this a test? Finders keepers???

And my logic can’t go any farther… What does yours tell us?

Lou

My views....

1. I think the money lets Candida feel "more important"...and while many say money doesn't buy happiness, it can make being unhappy a whole lot more comfortable! I know many will disagree, but take a look around SN and see how often people tie their problems/unhappiness/and sometimes most of their posts to the lack of sufficient money.

5. I don't know what the "They don't respect me" refers to...or to whom, but I firmly believe that Candida will get no respect from anybody until she has respect for herself. I do believe that people must like themselves/respect themselves before others will. Candida didn't. I hope she can find that self-respect somewhere. Perhaps the money, the independence and ability to, well, put the money where her mouth is and do something she's dreamed of will build her own self-respect somehow.

I don't know about the ring or why she left it as she did. Good riddance to bad memories, I guess. I'd have pawned that sucker and spent the money on something I really wanted. Maybe, like Mme, that's my depression-era father and mother's child raising of me coming to the fore. You didn't throw away anything of value if you needed the money. I was struck on page 87 that Candida seems to think women have to wait for someone to "give" them pretty things. She thinks Julia is an "odd woman" for having bought herself her lovely jewelry. Here's where dear Candida and I part company. I admire Julia for buying her own lovely things and not sitting around waiting for someone (ie, male) to buy it and give it to her. Julia's earning her own way, not dependent on someone else for the things she enjoys. Candida, in my view, could learn a lot from Julia in this respect. If Candida doesn't know what she's qualified to do, I fear she's still in the "poor me, Lady of the Manor" mindset----and now some 3 years in London. Good grief!

I don't think Candida is going to journey to the Underworld because she's already been there. She's going take a journey out of it. Wonder if she'll be disappointed when she sees the Underworld of Aeneas?

If she marries the blue water, she won't drown in it, right? The ring is not the Golden Bough. I'll venture to say there isn't any.

I think someone asked if Candida was the hare or the frog. The hare, of course. The frogs all drowned, and this woman isn't going to drown in the canal, in the pond, in the pool, or anywhere.

Mal

Jane, you're right about money. Candida said it "empowered" her. That's what money can do. It takes a long time to get over being married twenty or more years, Jane.

What does the plastic bag scene mean? What do you think about Julia, Mrs. Jerrold and Cynthia Barclay? What about the sand stuck in the hourglass? What about the dentist? What about the man who asked her in French if she often thought of the past? The crown rib roast?

Yes, the tone has changed. It's positive, much more optimistic now.

Mal

Yes, I'm sure it does, Mal.

I come from the other extreme, I guess.

She and I just see her world and what she needs to do from such opposite experiences.

I've enjoyed the Holryod article very much, Mme, thank you for bringing it here, isn't he charming? She lucked up that time, or so it would appear tho I like Clive Swift (tho was never married to him, obviously).

Viogert, thank you for the Virginia Woolf information and link, I am learning quite a lot in this discussion.

I saw a lot of humor in this section, and some subtlety, as well as at least one wry poke in the ribs at the reader, too, quite pronounced. I bet in real life Drabble has quite the sense of humor. I’m seeing a definite change of tone overall, tho at first I wrote in my own margins, “most self centered person I ever saw in my life.”

We need to look at the “luxury in grief” on page 132, that’s something else, in fact, there’s a lot in this section which is….strong. She’s almost painfully horribly self centered, not like an ego thing but a curse, as if her very glance causes strangers to speak to her, the “Malocchio,” she mentions several times in this section: the Evil Eye, it’s almost as if she’s cursed by her own…I don’t know the word, over self awareness?

Never seen anything like it, actually.

I spent most of the day thinking about the rocks in the pockets stuff and the drowning. Do you all realize how horrible that is? It’s almost like stoning yourself. They have to be pretty good size stones, if you can walk to the water they can’t be THAT heavy so what happens is you wade out and start to swim, and then you get tired, and they pull you under. And I have read that EVERY person who attempts suicide by drowning, there’s an involuntary thing that takes over, something about oxygen, but you fight for life at the end, may not have been your plan to, but you do; so what do you do? You’re exhausted, do you try to swim or do you start picking the rocks back out? Horrible thing to do to yourself and prolonged. I would have to say anybody who did anything like that was seriously ill, no matter what caused it: Jane, Virginia Woolf, the Hours characters, whatever. It’s horrible, and not something you hear about every day, where did that child, Jane, hear about it?? Not something I heard as a child? Who told her about it?

ON a brighter note, the proposed excursion sounds exciting and fun, they’re having a ball planning it well and enjoying each other, and she realizes that she didn’t have to come into money (120,000 pounds tonight is $192,984.00 US Dollars, that’s a substantial sum) to propose this after all, it appears they are all paying their own way but she’s picking up the bus or something with guide.

I hope it goes well for her, it should: they are united in a common goal, they have common interests, they have Mrs. Jerrold, but sometimes trips with several people don’t work out well, and any trip is work.

I think it sounds like fun, and she says for the first time in the book that she is happy, that’s something, too.

Isn’t it funny on the ring, what we’d all have done with it, wonder if that shows anything about US?? Hahahaah

Maybe we need a RING Disposal Litmus Test here!

IF it were worth anything in the first place, any jeweler would give you something for it, or as Jane says a pawn shop, would give something: either way, it would still be gone and you’d have gained something for yourself in recompense for the trouble it caused.

NOW to the real meat of the discussion, your super points!!!

Tisi

Ginny, I had reason to sell other jewelry later, some of which had been given to me by my former husband. I was paid less than peanuts for it by a jeweler. The satisfaction of throwing my ring down the garbage disposal was much better than the feeling that I'd been ripped off by a man . . . . again.

Mal

Marvelle, when you mentioned Prufrock I remembered the line about ”I grow old, I grow old…” and ending about “I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each, I do not think that they will sing to me.”

Kind of reminds me there of CW, thanks for that parallel.

THANK you for the Dante epigraph, too, hahahah this is fun!

Mme I’m glad you’re feeling better I had wondered where you were!

You mentioned in your wonderful post, this, on CW seeing the Sibyl: Maybe she just wants to hear it, witness that myth, though the phrase "to hear my endless fate"

She says …she alludes in one section to being the Sibyl, or I’m going nuts, will bring that section here tomorrow, did anybody else notice it?

And THANK you for all the animal references, I noticed that birdless thing repeated more than once too, and not always about Avernus, but I don’t know what, if anything, it means.

OH and VERY sharp reading on the seedless grapes thing, that one needs to go into the heading, Julia’s the sour one right? OR?

A lot of those glosses are strange. (Do you really write glosses in the third person?)

Ah, Malryn you think Ida Jerrold is the Sibyl, interesting!! So we have two candidates for Sibyl, did anybody notice any more?

Thanks for the rocket=arugula, I had no idea!

And what IF you said Partenope to us? How about explain? You said SHE?

Marvelle, who IS the poor hare? I would have to say it’s the narrator at this point, that self consciousness is really something else, it’s crippling her.

Loved your explication of all the hints!

THIS was a good point, “I think the messy emotions of the narrator are a natural reaction to her situation and a part of the healing process, if she's strong enough.”

Do you think she is? It’s ok to nurse the wound, even healthy, is she strong enough for joy? We’re about to find out.

Malryn you quoted, “but playing alone is not good for the soul,”

What do you all think that means, that needs to be in the heading too? You can, of course, play double solitaire with others but I’ve never heard it was good for the soul?

Lou2, thank you for notesinthemargin, looks like she’s starting up a reader’s site, we know how that is, but NO I had not discovered the internet public library!!! Many thanks!!

Pat, did you get both of those (Pat has worked herself almost to death here, it’s taking two of us just to keep up with you all!)

OH and you FOUND the Arguments, I must go look, maybe it will explain them before I have to read (not that it’s a chore) more Dryden introduction, I love that you put it in your book!@!!

Love all the references to 7, those which pertain directly to this book are in the heading, and let’s keep looking, you guys are very sharp!

Carolyn, thank you for the background on Bi Polar disorder, I had only vaguely heard of it. I agree she’s taking faltering steps, for some reason I have a lot of foreboding, tho.

hahaha, Mme, it’s amazing how we rationalize things like solitaire, isn’t it? If Alzheimer’s was cured by half the things I think I’m doing to prevent it, I need never worry about it! Hahahaha I think playing alone is better for the soul if you’re competitive than playing with others and beating the pants off them. Ahahahah

Actually they say the best thing you can do for yourself mentally is join a book club, so here we are and as Candida herself would say, “it stretched my brain to the cracking point!” hahaahahah

Malryn, I was under the impression that Julia had written quite a few books , (did the author say 12) and that they had quite a following even tho some were out of print as you can see from Cynthia’s delighted reaction. I think that’s Drabble speaking about respect, myself.

Lou, you ask if we were disappointed when the narrator’s name was revealed? I wasn’t because so many people here kept using it, not surprised or anything, actually, what symbolism do you see in it? And why would we be disappointed, what an interesting question? How did you feel when you saw it revealed?

I think you have hit on something, I really do, but I don’t know what it is. Why should the author delay revealing the name of the protagonist so long, while having her refer to it, only to have it revealed …..by the dentist!

The only man who has touched her in years, is that significant?

I LOVE your parallels with the Aeneid!

Why do you think it significant that she was greeted by name on the way to the Health Club? She said somewhere she lost her passport, Virgil was her passport …

LOVED your engagement ring musings, wow!! THIS one’s going in the heading ““I divorced myself from Andrew and married the blue water”. So what’s the blue water she married?”

I skimmed over that. So she… following that train of thought, sacrificed the ring to the water? I dunno, had not thought of that angle, had ignored the blue water for the other things, that’s worthy of further thought, I think, what do the rest of you make of the blue water marriage quote? It seems quite profound and elusive to me.

Jane, I also thought that was a strange piece of thinking about how Candida came by her ring and why Julia’s were not as valid, “I was given it, after all. It is mine.”

Whereas Julia bought hers, so …er…it’s??

But one part of that that does not make sense is if it were given her, the person giving it and the reason it was given surely were attached sentimentally? Unlike Julia’s which were bought because they were pretty (did you all catch that “I gazed, impressed, at her dangerous knuckles.” (page 87) Too funny!

I assume Julia’s “boughten” rings are still pretty with no sad remembrances while Candida’s one is fraught with anguish, I’m glad she got rid of it and wonder why she’d wear it three years, where’s her wedding ring?

People with low esteem, I would think, typically would have almost no self respect, they might long for it, but it’s just not there. I’m beginning to see why Candida is estranged from her mother, tho.

Does she not have any siblings?

Malryn, good perspective on her not entering the Underworld but leaving it, it does seem like that! Will she be disappointed when she sees the Underworld of Aeneas? I can’t speak for her but if she encounters the Sibyl I myself will throw the book across the room with a scream…er…

Whaddya mean if she marries blue water she won’t drown in it, she’s drowned in everything else so far? Self pity, anger, sadness, guilt? You name it, she’s drowned in it, now she’s coming out to shore, and how ironically portrayed in the description of her in Queen Mary’s (not named) Rose Garden in Regent’s Park, a place I love). Oh Drabble is a heck of a writer, no question about it.

I liked all your questions, and will be putting them up as we go, one at a time, many thanks,

The crown roast? Same old, same old. She was concerned about appearance more than anything else: what the shopkeeper who couldn’t care less thought of her.

And in closing, we definitely need to look at page 95 tomorrow, the gloss says She wonders
whether she
should pluck the
Golden Bough>

WHAT golden bough?

WHAT ontological and teleological arguments?

LOTS of meat in this one, WHAT are YOUR thoughts?

Tisi

"Notes on the history, art and culture of Naples."

"The ancient writers have handed down old stories of mermaids (sirens): Partenope, Ligeia and Leucosia, defeated by Orfeo during a singing contest, and were turned into rocks.

"The name of the city comes from the first mermaid. Another story is that of Ulysses, who was not enchanted by the mermaids’ singing; they met their creator by jumping off the cliffs of the gulf. One of them, Partenope, was believed to have been found on the islet of Megaride, where, later the Castel dell’Ovo was built."

Thank you for that, Malryn, another drowning, I see, "According to later legend, the Sirens drowned themselves from annoyance at the escape of Odysseus. The body of one of them, Parthenope, was washed ashore in the bay of Naples, which originally bore her name." (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature).

I'm not recalling the Sirens in the Aeneid, but I'm still not finished rereading it, what's the connection with Virgil and the Aeneid, you said earlier that Aeneas would have known her?

Tisi

Not Aeneas, Ginny -- Virgil. I was thinking of Candida's proposed trip to Carthage and Naples and ran across these legends I'd heard before and associated them with the Aeneid, only parts of which I've re-read. We're discussing Durant's Life of Greece, as you know. I was surprised about how the Ancient Greeks settled in so many parts of Italy. In some parts of Sicily an old version of the Greek language still is spoken. This rang a bell with one of the participants, whose family originally came from Sicily. This book and Durant's seem to go hand in hand with each other.

Mal

Thank you, Malryn, it was your post 193 I was referring to, "P.S. And what if I said Partenope to you? I believe Aeneas knew who she was."

I had not made the connection, I'm sure Virgil, like all Romans, was thorougly familiar with the old Greek myths.

Tisi

Well 23 messages to read and now I'm caught up for the moment.

Mal mentioned Frankl. I would not have in my intimate circle of friends, anyone who displayed in public the emotions that Candida exhibited in The Diary. (Did you know that Drabble is rather unfond of Woolf because VW didn't treat Trollope as well as Drabble thought he deserved?) Anyway, Frankl says that the last of the human freedoms is being able to choose one's attitude. Therefore, after a period of bombardment by the emotionally messy, those who seem to have adopted a lifetime habit of those emotions, I will draw the line. I've enough challenges of my own (don't we all?) However, we see that Candida is coming out of her darkness at last.

In this section of the novel one line that especially tickles me is Candida's remark about Julia: "For a wicked woman, she is always surprisingly punctual." (p86)

I love this line! But then what is wicked to Candida? I think if you're wicked you're not a lady? Because you're independent and you make your own rules and thus you are deliberately "sinning," as in sins of commission.

Another quote about wicked Julia and herself: "...she had bought most of [her jewellry] herself, and was proud of having done so. She is an odd woman. Most women want to be given things, not to buy things....I've still got my...ring....I was given it, after all. It is mine." (87)

What I believe is being implied here is that a woman's worth traditionally is given to her by a man or by society; women are a reflection of that value system and that is why Candida is reluctant to part with the ring. It would be giving up what little identity she has at that time.

Later, when she's showered with gold and plans the trip she is able to let go of the ring. But she has to become actively wicked like Julia and that's why she doesn't sell it or give it away. That reflection of status as to be discarded, thrown in the dump bin (meaning the blue waters of the pool) as a thing of no value. Candida doesn't let it have value anymore which means she is no longer a reflection.

Lou, your comments on Turnus and Aeneas were stunning. It made me think that perhaps Candida felt she had stolen the ring since she took it under false pretences -- to be a devoted, obedient wife; to follow the social rules; to be a lady while inside it seems she was rebelling. This rebellion showed in her lapses -- yelling at the garbage man, or leaving the marital bed, perhaps a longtime passive resentment of her restrictive life. So perhaps she believes she stole the ring?

Anyway, that's my thoughts on wicked and why the only right action for Candida was to discard the ring as worthless. It had to die in her life so she's offering it as a sacrifice and we'll see if it is accepted.

Marvelle

I re-read the latest posts to make sure I wasn't covering what'd already been said. (And this is hard to do since the thoughts are coming left and right!)

First about Candida looking out her window and seeing this stange shape. It turns out the glass is distorted and the shape is a regular bird. Symbolically the window is seen as an observation post to the world so the distortion would mean that Candida isn't seeing things as they are in reality. I would go one step further, bear with me, that this is an analogy for the writer's process. An artist (writer) can never record the world or nature as it really is; it's an impossible task. An additional interpretation that doesn't exclude the literary one is that when Candida sees the bird it reminds readers of the birdless lake in Virgil. Yet her vision is distorted? That doesn't bode well for her future quest.

I've thought and thought, like Lou, about solitaire. The very very basic breakdown of solitaire (35-36) is the real versus imitation. But what is the real? (I'm going to riff some thoughts and hope that you all will comment so that between us we might find an answer of sorts. I'm still groping myself for answers.)

Is laptop solitaire the reader's experience, second hand at best; while the writer can go back and change things, the reader is stuck with what has been written by someone else?

"(I haven't played solitaire for two days now. I congratulate myself. Writing is a good substitute.)" (24) From this quote we can tell that laptop solitare isn't a symbol for the writing process itself.

Perhaps laptop solitaire stands for passive living and Candida's sins of omission?

In any case, it means the second-hand and removed experience.

I also have thoughts about the numerous allusions and symbols in "Seven Sisters" (can we say SS without offense?) but that must wait for a while yet.

Tisi, I think Candida has gotten past self-destructive thoughts of revenge (as in The Oresteia) and she reduces the importance of marriage/society/husband/status by discarding the ring without hostility or epic fanfare. The ring has lost its power over Candida. Good for her!

Marvelle

Before I get sidetracked by another tangent in my head, I'll say that if there is a Golden Bough for Candida, it is the old, browning Christmas tree piled up with other jettisoned junk in that under-the-highway underworld.

"Aw, that's just sour grapes." Is that what Drabble meant? She has more than one little joke in this book.

Maybe Solitaire represents what Candida really wants to do, while writing in her diary is what she thinks she should be doing.

Wickedness. I have the impression from what I read that Candida was brought up with many prohibitions in her life which were put on her by her parents and her grandparents. She wanted to get a little job when she was a teenager. Her parents said no. An obedient girl, she accepted that "prohibition". She accepted others. Her grandparents thought card playing was a sin. That rubbed off on her.

I see many restrictions and rules put on her when she was very young, including warnings about what was "good" and what was "wicked". I see rules and restrictions put on her by her husband that are too numerous to mention. How to make goulash for company and what the wife of a headmaster should do and be are only two.

Candida has now entered a world which has freedom. No one's there to punish her for being a little bit "wicked" except herself. She says Julia tells the drunk to piss off. Now, that's something Candida never would say or do. Later she says something or other "pissed her off". Her ideas of what's right and wrong are changing. She's allowing the tight girdle of that past that's been on her all her life to be loosened.

Oh, for heaven's sake, didn't you ever indulge in some romantic, self-imposed self-pity and grief when you were a kid? I call it part of growing up. Any self-pitying Candida is doing right now is again part of growing up.

I've noticed that what we say here reflects where we came from and are coming from, each in our own individual ways. Jane's comments about being self-sufficient and single until she was in her 30's are a comment on a background which is very different from Candida's, or mine for that matter. I feel such empathy with Candida and what she's going through that I do not see the negatives some of you have mentioned. I see a woman who's had no life of her own before, a woman who has set out on what could be a dangerous adventure and facing it well. She's a woman who's doing all she can to survive, while at the same time trying to overcome what others, male and female, and herself have done to her.

I don't know anyone in this readers group personally, probably never will. I don't know much of anything about your backgrounds. I don't know if any of you have left your family and all things familiar and gone to a faraway and different place in order to pull yourself together and start a new life.

The reasons for doing this vary. Candida certainly did not do this to run away. In the beginning process a person takes stock of all the resentments that have eaten at her, and the people and incidents which have caused those resentments. She examines herself, what she's been and what she is now, in a ruthless way. This is not being self-centered. It's an analysis that must be done if she is to progress and grow. It's part of the shedding of an old, destructive snakeskin that doesn't fit right any more, so she can put on another kind that's new.

Enough.

Mal

Just a few comments here. I've really been running here trying to keep up with the posts and the reading. Your posts have really helped me, but, not to encroach on any symbolism, I feel like I'm drowning, or at least am over my head. So, will be a passive participant for a while.

Mal,I've found myself agreeing with several things you've said, lastly about the solitaire. While reading Marvelle's comments, my thoughts were that CW felt she didn't deserve to play solitaire, she was punishing herself by not playing, as she has been punishing herself all along. You have phrased it much more succintly. (By the way, I'll calll next time I pass through North Carolina - )- )

Question 5 -- Julia, not Drabble. That would be petty of Drabble to whine in the middle of her work.

Question 14; No, I've thought of her as Candida all along AND when was her name introduced in her writings? I can't find it.

Question 15: The blue water is her new outlook on life. Hopefully it means she will no longer whine and bleat about her life as wife and mother.

CW appears to be more proactive in this section -- visiting Mrs. Jerrold, being the "aggressor" with the ill woman at the health club, buying a lottery ticket. In one of the earlier posts someone said she would not ever want to be friends with CW. I'll withhold judgement on that. For several years I had a friend (now gone) who I enjoyed being with, but she would never make plans or suggestions. She was always happy to be called and invited, but would never take action herself. She was that way with everyone, but was a very likeable person. I can see that in CW.

I thought it was already understood that the Christmas tree is the Golden Bough? I'd mentioned it a few days ago and wonder now if someone has suggested another alternative? Would love to hear other ideas.

I also hoped to get different interpretations of solitaire so this is a start. Another interpretation could be in the comparison of living your life actively rather than passively letting life happen to you/or rather than passively accepting what someone sets out for you? The someone would be husband, family and/or society? So it's the passivity that isn't good for the soul?

Candida is careful in separating her writing from the laptop solitaire game -- "(I haven't played solitaire for two days now. I congratulate myself. Writing is a good substitute)." (24) Instead of using the act of writing as the comparison, Candida compares using actual cards when playing solitaire versus the restrictive laptop solitaire.

I'm curious about the punishment aspect that Ann brings up and what clues that lead her to that conclusion? I'm just trying to see. Soooo .... where are we now on this? Any more ideas? Oh Lou, I think we need your thoughts.

Marvelle

The sapphire and diamond engagement ring has been suggested as the Golden Bough several times, Marvelle. See Lou's ponderings in her last post. It was that post which prompted me to say what I did about the tree today.

About Candida's apparent ignorance about what's going on the man at Wormwood Scrubs says, "Born yesterday; that's you." What do you think?

What significance does the tape Mrs. Jerrold gave Candida have?

What do Anais and Mr. Barclay recognize in each other?

Why in the world does Candida ask Sally to go?

Pedln, it would please me very much if you called on your way through North Carolina. ; )

M A R I L Y N
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

F R E E M A N
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

How lucky I am!

Just jumping in for a moment:

Pedln, so nice to see you again, you are always a breath of fresh air!

Actually Drabble does do something…I wouldn’t call it petty, but it’s sly and a big time JAB at the reader, very subtle, droll, did any of you catch it?

Drabble is VERY definitely jabbing the reader in this section, but with a wink and a nod and an elbow, hahaah Reader, did you catch that?

Did we? So I think the “respect” thing might be her, what do the rest of you think?

Marvelle, I don’t see the Christmas tree as her passport to anything, I can see what it might symbolize but as a passport to a new world which is what the Golden Bough was and as a new gloss on page 95, where she asks if she should grab it, I can’t connect the two year old tree, and don’t see it mentioned there, can you explain further this connection to this new gloss?

ginny

Malryn, would you be good enough to list all of the questions you have posed in the last several posts in one post so I can put them up in small batches? I would appreciate it, if not it will take me some extended time.

Thanks,

Back tonight,

ginny

I'm sending them in an email, Ginny.

Mal

I re-read your post Mal and you seem to take issue with those of us who find negatives to Candida? I feel I've been balanced in my look at her and pointed out negatives and positives? I have said that she is starting to change. So I don't see the argument?

I don't have a background of not living my life. Candida is trying, for the first time, to begin her own life. Well better late than never.

Candida starts her new life with a rather nasty tone and thank goodness that isn't a permanent condition. She's beomes less angry as the shock of her new condition in life wears away and her fear recedes. This ending of Part 1 is when her tone changes and Candida becomes less anxious.

__________________________________________

This next part is my declaration of... of what? My declaration of intent? Or my ars poetica?

I expect to continue to talk about the characters of the novel who after all are not real. Talking about them not only isn't off-limits but is necessary. That's what a discussion is meant to do -- to talk and examine and question and learn and most of all to have fun? If I disagree with another's opinions, I won't nod in phony, hypocritical agreement just to keep the other person happy. Instead I prefer to 'agree to disagree' and continue to enjoy the ride of both discussion and novel. So let's give it a rest...let's agree to disagree about liking/disliking some character.

Marvelle

Ginny, yes that's how I see it too -- a wink and a nod and a jab with the elbow! But, as usual with implied meanings, there could be other things being said? So I thought others might see it differently. Not only is Candida an unreliable narrator but author Drabble is tricky and sly and I'm not sure yet what I think of her technique. She even does a wink and nod and jab at Virginia Woolf. There's an overwhelming amount of writing about writing in this section.

Will get back about the Christmas tree after I review my posts where I talked about it. I brought it up, and Mal brought it up, because it is foreshadowing? Therefore I have to be careful about what I reveal (and hope I haven't revealed too much already). Later about the tree ...

Marvelle

Gee, Marvelle, what have I done now to irritate you? Your interpretation of what I said is wrong. I don't take issue with anyone about anything.

I give up. I'm tired of having my posts misunderstood.

Mal

As I continue reading this book I am more and more convinced that a lot of what Candida writes is unreliable. We found her a bit nasty in the beginning of the book but I don't believe this is really Candida. She is just hitting out in this part of the book.

She does care about the people around her no matter what she writes and she has a sense of loyalty and justice. Haven't all of us privately had negative thoughts about the people closest to us. We still love them but we see their faults. We may not vocalise them but we think about them!

She had no need really to invite Sally but she does as she feels her invitation is just. Sally had been the first to suggest a trip.

Earlier in the book as she is criticising Sally she also says that she believed Sally was good with her clients.

She has a soft spot for her daughter Ellen this comes out as she writes about her all through the book.

The real Candida is being revealed bit by bit as we read.

Carolyn

Marvelle: I like the way in which you interpret the solitaire and a passive life. That indeed, to me, is how Candida has gone through life---a sort of a inert shell of a person. Perhaps it is indeed because of the very restrictive childhood she had--with all this stuff about what is "good" and what is "wicked." What she calls "wicked" simply floors me!

She is perhaps, finally at age 60, beginning to see that she's responsible for her own happiness. She seems, at least in the past, to be one of what appears at times to be a large group of people who expect others to make them happy and who wallow in the "victim" syndrome. As you can probably tell from this post, I don't have much patience with either the "life as a couch potato" or the "I'm a victim" attitudes.

Jane, I love this take on wicked when Candida comments about Julia: "For a wicked woman, she is always surprisingly punctual." hahahaa love it!

Drabble lets us know, through Candida's frequent use of allusion and overt references that Candida is an extreme reader. I'm quite a reader myself but Candida identifies too closely with the texts? They're her only frame of reference to that strange creature (strange to her anyway) called life. I'm not sure how to say this except that she lived only through literature and just now is beginning to experience life directly and not observing it through a distorting window. I'll have to think about this idea some more.

Oh Ginny, I forgot to mention that while I think the solitaire soliloquy is a jab at the passive life of observer, it's also a jab at the critics and sister A.S. Byatt -- but without the wink and the nod.

Marvelle

Waaay behind, but making progress. Just popping in to take a look at the questions in the heading...BUT not reading your posts and observations since they went up. Would feel funny commenting when I haven't completed the reading yet, but also don't want to read something in your posts that I haven't heard from Drabble first!

There's something I just read...it sort of jumped off the page at me, and part of question #5 in the heading reminded me of it..."Do you think this is Drabble herself speaking?" What I noticed isn't a big thing, but while reading the passage, it occurred to me that Drabble inadvertantly revealed herself. C. was wondering if people still used the term feeling "poorly" - her comment about the spell-check accepting it made me take notice. Do you know ANYONE who keeps a journal or a diary...whether writing longhand OR using a laptop...who would run their private thoughts through a spell check? Think about it! She's editing her own journal? To me this sounds like a person preparing her work for the public...at least for other readers. Sounds like a writer. Sounds like Margaret Drabble. I think this was a mistake on her part, don't you? It reminded me that C. is not a real person and made me turn and stare at the author.

Have about 20 more pages in Part I to read...and can't wait to get in and get your take on so many things that I'm underlining in these pages! This is so exciting! A whole different way to read a book, isn't it?

Malryn: The satisfaction of throwing my ring down the garbage disposal was much better than the feeling that I'd been ripped off by a man . . . . again. It’s so funny, Mal, I thought of the same thing myself…almost worth it to grind it up rather than letting a ripoff business have it for nothing.

Ginny: it’s almost as if she’s cursed by her own…I don’t know the word, over self awareness. like being afraid to call Anais because she doesn’t want to wear out her welcome, constantly worrying that she’s a bother. I so relate to that, and I love the term over-self-awareness.

the seedless grapes thing … Julia’s the sour one right? I see Julia as the seedless one since CW wonders if Julia regrets being childless, and perhaps CW is referring to her own sour grapes as she tells us of the literary decline of Julia in this section.

The crown roast? Same old, same old. She was concerned about appearance more than anything else: what the shopkeeper who couldn’t care less thought of her. Frankly, I thought this was slightly out of character because she had reveled so in being able to say she couldn’t afford something earlier in the book (as opposed to having to dissemble when she was married).

Lou2: Were you disappointed when [her name] was revealed? Did you see symbolism there? If she regarded Virgil as her passport, it’s rather fitting that she not reveal her name till she gets her new "real" passport and is on the way to becoming a nonperson. (Ginny, I don’t think it was revealed by the dentist—it just said he called her by name, as did the Health Club receptionist, without telling the reader what it was.)

Jane: I was struck on page 87 that Candida seems to think women have to wait for someone to "give" them pretty things. My husband was awful at giving gifts (I think it was because I did the finances, and we had to watch our pennies). After the kids were grown, I used to buy jewelry for myself, wrap it and make it a present from him (My DIL said, "Dad, what a beautiful bracelet" one Christmas—actually my son and I had picked it out unbeknownst to him.) He learned.

Mal: What do you think of the French man? I think I’m in love ("the unkempt Belmondo) roué look). But then I have a life-sized poster of Belmondo in his jeans and T-shirt, French cigarette dangling from his mouth, and in 1991 went all by myself to see him do Cyrano at the Theatre Marigny when he was probably the age of the French man. His life wasn’t over at that age. (BTW, I highly recommend Claude Lalouche's 1995 modern version of Les Miserables starring Belmondo.)

Ginny: at least one wry poke in the ribs at the reader, too, quite pronounced. OK, Ginny, I give. What was it?

Ginny: "There’s a luxury in grief." There’s something I learned from my "widow’s" books, and that is that

Tears produced by emotional crying differ in chemical content from those caused by irritants such as onion juice. Emotional tears contain more protein than tears induced by irritants. William Frey contends that emotional crying is an eliminative process in which tears actually remove toxic substances form the body.

… While the research on psychoactive substances in tears is just beginning, there is reason to think that emotional tears may be important in the maintenance of physical health and emotional balance. (geocities: Digital Archive of PSYCHOHISTORY)

Ancient Greek and Roman tombs contain narrow-necked vessels called lachrymatories, which are thought by some to have contained the tears of mourners.

This a slightly humorous, though scientific, look at Tears. Mal in particular might be interested in the music they played to elicit tears from subjects.

Marvelle, great thoughts on wicked Julia, jewels, windows and solitaire! You go, girl! I definitely agree with solitaire and passive living. (That’s why I feel so guilty.) But I don’t think it is punishment not to play; I think she is trying to exercise some self-discipline, to gain more control over her life.

I think the solitaire soliloquy is a jab at the passive life of observer. By that do you mean the reader? Somehow I feel anything but passive in this discussion!

Mal: I've noticed that what we say here reflects where we came from and are coming from, each in our own individual ways. Except that my background is nothing like CW’s but I identify greatly with her. I think it has to do with self-image, "over-self-awareness," and timidity.

Joan: My word processing program does spellcheck automatically, and yes, I might run it through it anyway, and believe me, I have NO intention of having my journal printed. There are just some of us would-be perfectionists (Remains of the Day?) who are uncomfortable with misspellings.

Ladies you all are stretching my mind!! Mercy, I’m glad there aren’t 30 participants in this discussion!! I can barely get through reading the messages and begin to think before here come another group, equally as wonderful… and so the cycle goes!! What a pleasure!! Thanks to all of you!! And then sometimes life outside this great cocoon just has to intrude!

According to my notes Candida’s name was reveled on page 157, when her new passport is issued. Someone had said early on to watch for her name to be revealed, there could be good symbolism there. I was just saying, if it was there I missed it… guess I wanted trumpets. Then I read Ginny’s, ‘cuse me Tisi, 16 above…. If Virgil is her passport that could change everything… couldn’t it? (By the way, can anyone help me out here? I can’t find that reference..) Or does it??? And MmeW just addressed this as I was coming in to post!! See you all just keep posting and posting great stuff!!

Someone said she is coming out of the Under World… But on this trip she’s going to the places of the Aeneid—so to the Under World??? Aeneas had his travels before the UnderWorld, or did I read that wrong? Then went to the Under World there in Italy? You all need to hold my hand here, this is my first time as an adult through the Aeneid…(Please don’t judge me too harshly for admitting that here!!) So, wouldn’t she have to have the Golden Bough to come back?? Back from what? The trip?? So is the passport the Golden Bough????

If she had siblings, I can’t find a mention of them, Ginny.

Love every thought on solitaire. I have no answers, just tons of questions! You all have great thoughts!

MmeW: the seedless grapes thing … Julia’s the sour one right? I see Julia as the seedless one since CW wonders if Julia regrets being childless, and perhaps CW is referring to her own sour grapes as she tells us of the literary decline of Julia in this section.

How about Julia is childless… and CW’s children are sour??? Would that work?

Lou

Lou, I too think that just as Aeneas traveled and then went to the underworld, so the narrator will travel first. She's in darkness and is descending. What does that say about hell on earth? I think the narrator is preparing for the underworld by trying to imagine it.

Oh great point about Drabble revealing herself, Susan, but I think it's deliberate. The question is, does it bother us? Do the author's fingerprints on the pages make the story less effective or less enjoyable? Does the author's intrusion distance the reader emotionally from the text? (Right now I'd say I dunno.)

I promised to retrieve what I'd said about the discarded Christmas tree as a possible Golden Bough. I'll return with that after dinner and the washup. Would she need it to return, Lou? Hmmm, good question.

Marvelle

Wow talk about an explosion of ideas, I guess we have them here, this is truly a delight. (It actually reminds me of Candida’s Aeneid group, did you love that description, they compare different translations and sit and enjoy arguing over their own interpretations, sometimes of one word?)

There are people all over the world reading that book who wish they had a group like that to talk to, well…HERE WE ARE, WORLD! hahahahaa And it truly does not get any better than this.

OK I’ve read everybody’s posts, and some of you are seeing more author presence than I did! How did Joan P put it, when the author intrudes into the story and you stop and look at the author, I’m going to go back and look again at what you all have pointed out.

Here’s the one which jumped out at me:

On page 157:

“It is a strange coincidence, perhaps, that four more of the seven of us have classical names. Julia, Cynthia, Ida, and myself.”

hahaha, how droll can you get?

No, it’s not a strange coincidence? The author gave those fictional characters those names deliberately, they’re not real people! And when she has the protagonist remark on it, to me it’s like the author shouting, hey, Readerrr? Did you catch those names? In case you didn’t I’ll call attention to it? Do you get it? Do you get all the other things I buried in this? Hahahahaa

And now you say there are more so I need …we need a list!

Marvelle, great point on what is “wicked” to Julia? I reiterate I have never seen the game of solitaire described as having anything to do with the soul at all, maybe you’re right, and she really is that….er…..whatever.

Marvelle, you may be right about Candida having gotten past the self destructive thoughts of revenge and the ring’s having lost power over her: that makes sense. Money is money tho, and note she did not throw it away till she came into some money, it must have been worth something, then. I can’t conceive of wearing an engagement ring of a man who I had divorced because of his affair, she didn’t even like him at the end, but I guess she thought it was HERS, mercy.

Malryn, could you explain how you see the old dead Christmas tree as a Golden Bough for Candida? I know they are somewhat gold in color when dead but I don’t see her connection with it otherwise.

Pedln, I liked your point about Candida being more proactive in this section, hope you can join us more often, we enjoy your take on things, somebody later has mentioned when the name first occurred, I could have sworn it was the dentist’s office, but apparently not!

(Also apparently dental work is not covered under British health plans).

Thank you for the questions, Marlyn, I will put them up in stages, I like the one about Sally !

Marvelle, this is an interesting observation: There's an overwhelming amount of writing about writing in this section.

Yes there is, I had sort of skimmed over it, maybe I should pay more attention. I’m looking forward to hearing about the tree, if you can’t do it now, that’s ok, we can wait, whatever it is she’s not touching the tree or plucking it or doing anything else to it, and the new gloss on page 95 says should she?

Carolyn, this is an interesting point: “She does care about the people around her no matter what she writes”

What makes you say that?

I agree with you that the Real Candida is being revealed, interesting, it really is.

marvelle, I’m not following this well:

think the solitaire soliloquy is a jab at the passive life of observer, it's also a jab at the critics and sister A.S. Byatt -- but without the wink and the nod.

Would you mind explaining that further?

Tisi The Dense But Fearsome Nonetheless

Joan P, spell check, I stopped over that but did not realize why, good thinking. When you add that to the glosses which I more and more think are Drabble’s outline Drabble is really IN the book (or maybe not, it’s a will o the whisp right now, to me!) hahaha but fun anyway. Can't wait till you catch up!

“A whole different way to read, “ you said that right!

Mme, good take on the seedless and sour grapes, aren’t seedless grapes usually very sweet tho, and Julia is certainly not sweet. Maybe Drabble doesn’t eat grapes?@?

OH WONDERFUL point on the crown roast being out of character!!!!!!!!! She’s the new her so she’s not dissembling but she succumbs to the butcher shop with the guys and the boaters etc.

So...why DID she buy it?

(Do we know what happened to that? Did she eat it herself or?)

SUSAN! LOVE this:

If she regarded Virgil as her passport, it’s rather fitting that she not reveal her name till she gets her new real passport and is on the way to becoming a nonperson.

Wait a minute? I just read that again. Did you say NONperson?

Thank you for that very interesting background on tears! I’m learning a LOT in this discussion!

Thank you, Lou2 for your bracing invigorating remarks, and for identifying page 157 as the place the name first appears, I see I wrote AT LAST in the margin, fat lot of good it did me. hahaahah

Oh so she gets her passport and her name huh, hmmm.

The reference to Virgil as her passport was on page 14, “I would never have dared to enter it had I not had a passport from the old world of Virgil.”

And I thought there was another reference to it. Could be wrong, but was pretty sure she did refer to it again.

By the way, she’s not entirely without ego, did you find this statement a bit…out of character,

“I’d give her a touch of class, which is what she knows she needs.” (page 95).

There’s Pedln’s class again, what does CW mean by it? Did you stop over that?

Lou, would she have to have the Golden Bough to come back? AGGG, just reread Book VI again (why won’t it stick in my head?) on the GB, all I can find, what do the rest of you see, is that it was Aeneas’s passport to get IN to the Underworld? It caused Charon to take him across the Styx (I never understood this part: does he cross it coming out? We know he goes through the Ivory Gate with his father as guide up to that point, and enters the real world again, with no mention of the Golden Bough. Or Charon. Or the River Styx. So he needed it to get IN but….I dunno, is it mentioned again?

Maybe we need to all say what we think this Golden Bough IS that the gloss remarks on?

IS it the passport?

Super questions, Lou!

Thanks for the siblings, I don’t know why I thought there were, something about her mother in the nursing home…I dunno. Can’t find it either.

I hate to throw this into the conversation of the seedless grapes and the childless, and all, but grapes are not normally propagated by seeds.

It seems to me Julia's got more seeds (endeavors) going for her than CW!?!

BUNCH of new questions for tomorrow, including one where I think she refers to herself AS the Sibyl!!

Tisi

Ginny, no, no, no—I miswrote! What I meant was that it was fitting for her to reveal her name once she is on her way out of anonymity, or on her way to becoming a person.

That was what I thought you meant! But when I reread it and saw that " non person" it took on a whole new subtle dimension, I thought BOY that MME! She's DEEP!! haahahah

(Well I stil think that!)

Tisi

I think we may have assumed that Virgil's underworld is the pagan equivalent of Dante's hell. But it isn't. The underworld itself is similar to a christian's Heaven. Hell to the pagans is the waiting for the underworld -- the lost souls pinning to cross the River Styx, past Cerebus, and leaving their torment behind. All of these obstacles are 'the getting to the underworld' like the narrator's existence in present-day London with the dump bins and self-torment is 'the getting to the underworld'.

Aeneas finally reaches the entry gate to the underworld after exhibiting to Charon (but holding onto) the Golden Bough. Aeneas then enters into the underworld, leaving the Golden Bough fixed to the Gate. He doesn't need it in his hand in order to return for that Gate is ready, by virtue of the bough, to open for Aeneas' return to the living Earth. There is no chance or desire by Aeneas to retrieve the Golden Bough once it's been sacrificed for then it would mean that the sacrifice wasn't accepted and it had no power.

The underworld, which all the dead souls aspire to, is our image of Heaven and a place of peace and where souls are reborn and returned to Earth.

Aeneas' descent to the underworld is duplicated in Part 1 of "Seven Sisters", and the hopeful sacrifice of the Golden Bough at the entrance to the heavenly underworld would be the narrator's ring in the blue waters of the Health Club. Is this going to be enough of a sacrifice or the only sacrifice that's required?

And this whole Part 1 isn't actually the underworld but rather the shrieking, despairing lost souls approach to it. The underworld itself is peace and the pagan version of heaven.

Marvelle

There is a definite link between the Christmas tree discarded under the motorway and the Golden Bough. The Golden Bough is traditionally, historically, an evergreen. It keeps it's leaves in the winter and to the pagans it symbolized eternal life.

Ancient Romans and other cultures held winter festivals and brought tree boughs into their homes and paraded with festooned evergreens. Early christians disapproved of such 'tree worship' but soon felt it expedient to adopt the practice and adopted the winter solstice as the date of Christ's birth. Martin Luther, around 1500 AD, started the practice of bringing an evergreen into the home in the winter as a symbol of Christ and of sacrifice and salvation. Thus, pagan and christian customs merged.

In the Aeneid, the Golden Bough is generally referred to as shining amongst the other leaves and most historians accept the pagan symbol of evergreens, not just the mistletoe, as being the Golden Bough of sacrifice and salvation. In any case, with the merging of pagan and christian beliefs, and the adoption of the evergreen tree as symbolizing Christ -- it is the Christmas tree that may bridge the time crevass between ancient and modern for the narrator of "Seven Sisters".

I'd previously posted a link about the merging of pagan-christian and here it is again:

Winter Festivals

The narrator's Christmas tree will reappear in the story of "Seven Sisters".

Marvelle

Unfortunately, the blurb gives a precis of the book & if it starts "Candida Wilton arrives alone in London,...", I assume it's the name of the protagonist. Namelessness was not a problem - any more than it was in "Rebecca", where we never knew the name of the second Mrs deWinter.

The most moving passage so far in "Seven Sisters" was when - at her lowest ebb, CW walked in heavy rain, wearing the wrong clothes to Regents Park rose gardens. She impulsively climbed into a fountain basin to remove an unsightly plastic bag - regardless of how incongruous this looked. It is the same woman who climbs a fence to remove an unsightly dead Christmas tree from a derelict site. It appeared to be an impulse to bring some sort of order to urban chaos?

The fascination with rings & jewels - Mrs Jerrold had NO jewels - she pointed out. The dumping of rings after divorce is normal.

The meaning of exchanged looks between Mr Barclay & Anais is that of dealers recognising one another.

I wasn't going to come in here again, but I paid $25.00 I can't afford on this book so I could be in this discussion, so why punish myself by staying away because someone doesn't like what I said?

First of all I'll say this: Just like the rest of you, what I put in messages I post here are only my opinions and my impressions. They are not posted here by me to influence or criticize anyone else or anyone else's opinions or her impressions of this book. Just as you have the right to what you think, so, then, do I.

I see this book as the story of Candida Wilton within the framework of the Aeneid. What happens to her in her everyday life interests me, as do the reasons for her being where she is right now.

I have read this entire book, and am now going through it carefully and paying attention to what people say here about the Aeneid, which I have available, too. It's my feeling, and my feeling only, that Margaret Drabble must have had a lot of fun writing this book. What you see is not what is much of the time. The Candida Wilton of the first part we're reading is not the Candida Wilton of the second part, or any of the other parts. Drabble has used a most fascinating technique here, in my opinion, that certainly keeps the reader on his or her toes.

Ginny, you asked why I think the Christmas tree is the Golden Bough. If you go back, you'll see that at one point I said there isn't a Golden Bough. Later I said if there is a Golden Bough, it's the Christmas tree. It's Candida's making the effort, to the extent of injury, to get it out of the derelict site Viogert mentions that I suggest that. I still don't think there is a Golden Bough for Candida. Remember, please. That's my opinion and my opinion only.

On Page 97 Candida remembers the teleological and the ontological arguments about the existence of God. She says in the course of that musing that the teleological argues "that we must be going somewhere because everything has a design and a purpose." Candida doesn't see why she or anyone else should be going anywhere. She says: "But we are driven to the quest." She says that human beings weren't designed for anything, that they "happened to become" and that the "pointless but necessary yearning was part of the becoming." It is my feeling that Candida's interest lies principally in the quest because she's "becoming."

The removal of the plastic bag scene struck me strongly, too, Viogert. The order in urban chaos theory seems like a good one. Not only was Candida trying to make some kind of urban order; she appears to me to be attempting to bring order to whatever chaos she has in herself. That, in fact, is a good part of what I think this book is about.

Oh, yes. I use a dictionary I have in this computer to check the spelling in everything I write, whether it's for public view or not.

Mal

Book Rags comment on book six says ” She (Sibyl) tells him it is easy to go down, but it is harder to return. She instructs him that there is a golden bough on a tree in the forest. If someone is fated to return from the underworld, he may pluck the bough and use it as a gift for Proserpeha…”

OK, so if someone is “fated” to return he used the golden bough. I had that all confused!! So you don’t have to have it with you.. just have it in the first place!! Heaven help if I were trying to read this in Latin!!!

Marvelle says: Aeneas' descent to the underworld is duplicated in Part 1 of "Seven Sisters", and the hopeful sacrifice of the Golden Bough at the entrance to the heavenly underworld would be the narrator's ring in the blue waters of the Health Club. Is this going to be enough of a sacrifice or the only sacrifice that's required?

So, Marvelle, have you changed your opinion? The Golden Bough is the ring? Not the evergreen??? Or am I confused again???

Lou

Heck reading it in Latin doesn't help! hahaha I have NEVER understood the Charon thing, this is not the only time he appears in classical literature, seems like it's hell to pay to get across the River Styx but you walk out the other side (or some other side) thru the gate and never see Charon again? no boat? Is there a back entrance? I have managed to live lo these many years in total confusion over that point and if this discussion clears it up I will have learned something VERY useful, to me!!

On the Golden Bough gloss in the question I have to say this?

To me and perhaps only to me the Golden Bough symbolizes something that is used with a purpose

I don't see Candida USING the Christmas tree, but I have not finished the book, perhaps she does.

I believe Question 16 refers to her using something symbolically, for a purpose . Where does she do anything with the tree in these two sections except look at it in passing?

It may symbolize something later on, I can see that it might, it is certainly lying there, but at this point I would have to say the Golden Bough is something else.

WHAT I'm not sure, maybe taking the chance on calling the others and proposing a trip? Maybe using her Virigl class as a threshold to a new experience? I don't know, at this point, tho, just for me, the Christmas tree is confusing, but not HALF as confusing as the lack of Charon and water on the River Styx at the exit?

back later

ginny

Right now we're discussing through page 163 (to the end of Part 1)? I realize that some, perhaps half of the group, are reading concurrently with the discussion and may not have read past Part 1 so I'll try not to get ahead in my comments. All that we know right now of a Christmas tree is on page 55.

I responded earlier to someone's comment about the Golden Bough and mistletoe because I thought it would confuse and my response only muddied the waters more. I hope we can leave the Christmas tree under the motorway until or unless we read about it again in "Seven Sisters."

Ginny, is there a back door? Love the thought. Maybe there's an Exit sign at a certain gate and you open the door and slide down a chute, out over the River Styx where you can thumb your nose at Charon as you slide by?

I also like the concept of the golden bough as being something used with a purpose but ... I'm still stuck on thinking of the supplicant's wand which would mean that something has to be offered to another. I'm wondering what is meant by "used with a purpose"? I'm assuming there is a higher purpose rather than, for example, buying a new house with the purpose of living in it? That sort of purpose wouldn't qualify?

Marvelle

Remember the lumpen boy on page 80? And the quote " 'Lumpen' means ragged. I read that in a book last week. I thought it meant something different. I think most of us did."

Because I don't have good sense I'm reading Possession, Byatt, too, right now. On page 59 of my paperback, about the middle of chapter 4: "... beat netted fists against a cottage door whilst squashed, lumpen faces leered behind upper windows." It may be in here another time, but I only caught this yesterday evening and can't find it. Yes, I would say this author is definately playing with us... or is it her sister she's playing with?

Lou

I agree with Mal there are two Candida's in this book! The old Candida and the new but I feel this is a natural progression of this tale.

Someone asked why I thought Candida did care for the people she talks about sometimes quite cruelly. If we have no feelings about people we rarely mention them. Candida spends a lot of time analysing her relationships. This to me indicates she does care. She has some guilt about these relationships.

I guess I am more interested in the evolving Candida than I am in the Aenid! The Aenid is a side issue to me and I am not going to spend too much time analysing it. As someone has said before each person reading a work draws their own conclusion. It is like looking at a painting! A painting can mean different things to different people. This is what makes participating in a discussion so much fun.

Carolyn

I agree, Carolyn, and it's the balance of all those opinions that makes our discussions sing. I'm going to point out that we've read a great many books on aging and women alone in the Books over the past 6 1/2 years, and this is the only one in which the author has chosen to include, and saturate the text with references to a specific thing, Virgil's Aeneid, and as the Discussion Leader here, I really would be remiss if I did not at least notice "the elephant in the living room," and ask for comment on it. I really want THE most indepth discussion we're capable of here, and I think we're capable of a lot.

In the heading we have 16 questions, only one of which pertains to the Aeneid, I think there's something here for everybody, or so I hope, let's all look at what interests us individually, feel confident to bring it up, and in our sharing, we will enrich the understanding of the others, nothing is off limits or outre.

(What does "yonks" mean, anybody know?)

Back later, saw "yonks," was passing thru, hey, Voigert, I loved that passage too, the "capillary action" alone was worth the cost of the book, hilarious, guess who else waded in Regent's Park? Never too old to make a fool of self apparently, huh? hahaahah

Tisi

Carolyn is a much kinder person than I am. She says that people talk about other people because they care about them. I agree with her that we don't talk about people to whom we are indifferent, and I think we do talk about people we like. In addition, however, I also think I and the people I know also talk about those we dislike/hate. If Candida speaks of people cruelly, then I believe it's because she (Candida) dislikes/hates them, for whatever her reasons are.

Ginny, yonks means "long, long time" or "donkey's years". So it says on a page of British word definitions. I can't find the home page; wish I could, because it's a good site. Drabble defines "lumpen" in Seven Sisters.

Lou, you're a better man than I am, Charlie Brown, reading Possession at the same time as this book. I've read Possession twice, once in a discussion here, once some years before that. Talk about allusions! As far as I'm concerned, Drabble and Byatt are two very different writers. It's too bad anyone knows they're sisters.

I think Candida meant it when she didn't like someone. That's why it surprises me that she's asked Sally to go on the journey with her and the rest. Is it because she's changed and is able to accept "Good Old Sal", warts and all? Or does she want to show off the fact that's she changed so Sally can report it back to all the folks in Suffolk?

I wonder exactly how much Margaret Drabble had her audience in mind when she wrote this book? I doubt if it was much. I also don't see her putting her own sour grapes in this book; she's too involved in her characters. The moaning about not being accepted as a literary figure exactly suits Julia, who wasn't. Julia's gone past her prime as a writer and a woman, and she sure doesn't like it much. Interesting character, Julia, from the time she told the girls in school she "did it" until now. All those rings! She's carrying a lot of baggage around, isn't she?

Wonder where the idea of Charon began? There were many River Styx ideas throughout Ancient History.

To end this meandering, I'll say I read something which called Mrs. Jerrold a "sybilline" figure. Isn't that interesting, especially after I'd decided she was a sybil?

Mal

From the Dictionary of Critical Sociology

Lumpen-proletariat: The refuse of all classes. The unemployed and casually employed, discharged soldiers and discharged prisoners, vagabonds, swindlers, paupers, beggars, bandits, and hustlers of all sorts, brothel-keepers, servants and hangers-on, beggars and pimps, petty thieves and those who live off of them, . . . .

The site below goes a little more in depth.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rmazur/dictionary/l.html

I hope this link works. I had to go back many, many pages to find it. Click NEXT for more.

British word definitions

Good heavens! Look at all these posts... Overwhelmed? Well, yes - er, not really because I understand your modus operandi now. The first day out you answer every question and toss out dozens of your own observations - and more questions! A deep breath - we have all week to consider everything you've posted. That's the beauty of this method. As long as we don't scare anyone off who doesn't understand us!

I spent the last hour reading through all your posts and need to get out of here for some quiet time to think about what all you have had to say.. At the risk of sounding disjointed and unfocused, a few observations:

We are learning a lot about one another as we post about Candida, I believe For instance...some of you spellcheck your diaries! Every word you write! ACtually, Candida was commenting on the usage of the word "poorly"...not the spelling. She was editing her journal for "usage." Some of you DO that too! Susan, do you have a Mac? How do you set your computer to spellcheck authomatically? Does it check your word usuage and sentence construction as well?

Some of you would have sold the diamond sapphire ring by now, others would have taken pleasure tossing it in the disposal or pool, or lake... If I were so conflicted about what to do with it, I'd keep it...locked up somewhere, at least I wouldn't wear it through these dark streets with so many desparate people around...nor would I wear it to swim laps! Surely people at the Health Club have noticed this flashy ring. And by now C. is recognized by name. So. I'd be willing to bet that she hasn't seen the last of this ring...I haven't read beyond Part I, but I do believe it will make its way back to her. Although I do agree with you Marvelle, she tosses it away because it has lost its power over her.

Two Candidas! The one depressed, one not. The new confident-enough-to-open-her-mouth Candida. The one with money. Did you notice that she rereads her journal too - and comments about how mean she sounded earlier? Carolyn suggests that her earlier self may have been suffering from menopausal symptoms. I get the feeling that she was depressed, at least repressed long before - even before her marriage to Andrew. Mal, do you really think that carrying on with the towel over her head was normal? Not at all extreme? She remembers taking "such pleasure in being rejected." Who rejected her? What was that about? Does anyone remember her maiden name? It seems to have caused her pain and embarassment as a child, but do we know what it was?

I'll be interested in hearing whether you believe that the money made the difference...or if she was gaining ground before she learned of the windfall. What if she hadn't gotten "lucky?" How important was the money?

Ginny...do we have to memorize the 6th Book of the Aeneid? I keep referring to it too! Isn't it a huge coincidence the number of people in the story familiar with this 6th chapter? How many times has it been mentioned? There was Mrs. Pearson's class; Mrs. Jerrold's clas ended with the 6th book...everyone is talking about it. Everyone wants to go to Maples, to Carthage. The in-place to go. You mention the gate of ivory, Ginny. Don't forget...there are two gates. The gate of ivory and the gate of horn. What is horn? It's better than ivory. Is ivory the tusk and horn the thing on the head? Don't laugh, I'm serious. Two gates may be a clue - to something. So many clues! So many detectives!

I told you this would be disjointed. Will try to hone in on your comments tomorrow. Focus! But first, here's something I need to ask you - is the use of "en effet" on every other page getting to you at all? Why not just say "in fact?" She's English...doesn't this French phrase, used soooooo often seem a bit much? What is this about?

Later!
Joan

According to Virgil, empty dreams, those that delude the dreamer, pass through the Gate of Ivory; the dreams that come true, the fulfilled or accomplished dream, pass through the Gate of Horn.

Joan, I'd never thought of horn being on the head and ivory the tusk which would be... what ... the mouth or nose? Wouldn't that make the horn the intelligent dream, the realistic one; the ivory is based on the sensory? and ivory is the wish without a foundation of reason, without thought and planning? Or...? Perhaps the idea too of active (horn) vesus passive (ivory) also comes into play.

Marvelle

Malryn, on the Sibyl thing, I can see why a reviewer or whoever said Mrs. Jerrold might be a Sibyl, in addition to you, she’s leading them in the paths of Aeneas and on page 105, Candida directly refers to her as a prophetess, “I didn’t want to listen to any more prophecies,” so that might fit symbolically.

I thought this section on page 124 was beautiful:

I used to enjoy doing French translation. There was a pleasure in unraveling the grammar, in finding the right word…There is a lasting pleasure in the exercise of the mind.

Love it!

Marvelle, that was a nice parallel on the heavenly underworld with the ring in the blue waters, enjoyed that.

Viogert, thank you for explaining about the plastic bag, there’s something about that incident that kind of nags me, I haven’t gotten to the part where she climbs a fence to remove the Christmas tree, but it does sound from what you say that she wants to make a difference and bring order from chaos, good point!

Malryn, thank you for clarifying your position on the Golden Bough. The question in the heading is Candida Wilton’s own question about herself, that’s why I asked it, SHE is referring to the Golden Bough. Whatever part we may think the Aeneid plays in this story, when the main character refers to it, we need to sit up, maybe, maybe not. Anyway, thank you for clarifying what you meant.

You bring up the section on teleological and ontological arguments and Candida’s position. I found her position illogical and once again self absorbed, so in that she has not changed much.

Lou, thank you for reminding us that a visit to the Underworld is normally not accompanied by exit!

Marvelle, it seems to me if there were an easy exit, no matter what gate it was, those wily ancients would have skipped Charon and gone there. I remember asking a Medievalist once about this, it’s coming back to me now, and he said, and I quote, “It’s a myth. It doesn’t have to make sense.” Haahaha

But weren’t they inventive tho, and weren’t they clever!

Are you asking me what I mean by “purpose?” hahahaha , you're a Sibyl yourself! Or you have ESP? I can hear Pearson screaming all the way over here. (She actually told me in DC "Not purpose again, ginny!") Hahaahahah

Purpose is my middle name!!!!!! I believe that sort of dolphin moaning sounds must be Jane and Pat as well. Nah, I blather about purpose and goals so much people call me ol P&G Anderson.

Here’s what I think about Purpose and the Golden Bough:

OK to get IN the Underworld you have to have a ticket, a passport, right? In Aeneas’s case it’s the Golden Bough., the purpose of which is to get him in the Underworld?

Otherwise you wouldn’t need it or want it, particularly.

So in extrapolation, symbolically, we might want to try to understand what the “Golden Bough” is for Candida, because everybody thinks she wrote the glosses, so what does she mean? What in her life will serve the purpose (have the same result) as the Golden Bough did for Aeneas? It got him what he wanted. What will get her that?

I’m not sure that makes ANY sense at all but it’s the best I can do.

People buy houses for all kinds of purposes, not only to have something to live in? But if you buy one you could live in it, sure.

Lou2, thank you for the parallel of lumpen in Byatts works, how do they compare? You have really read a heck of a lot for one discussion!

Malryn thank you also for that new link to definitions

Carolyn, I liked your use of the term “evolving” for Candida, because she’s not there yet, and I was thinking think of the craft here, the writer’s ability. She’s got us pulling for this character.

We started this book and a lot of us wanted to put a towel over our own heads at the whining, but now most of us are pulling for her, and want to see her succeed? This is not a real person and I think that the author has had a LOT Of skill in making this fictional character as she was in the first section "rootable for" in the second.

Jane, I agree, and I think people are more prone to obsess over people they dislike because they can’t figure out why they act so strangely and badly. WHY is a prime motivation I think of a lot of kvetching.

Malryn, thanks for the definition of yonks, I sure wouldn’t have gotten it from the context.

Pedln, thank you for that extended definition of lumpen, and the link, that’s SOME definition!~ People who live off those (parasites, Drabble goes on about parasites) and those persons themselves who are the dregs of society.

Interesting!

What did you all think of the bizarre incident of the hour glass stopping in the sauna, I believe Malryn also asked this as well? If that had happened to you, the sands of the hour glass stopping, would you have assumed or thought YOU were dead or that the hourglass was stopped up?

What does it say about a person who assumes they are dead because an hour glass stops. There is a LOT about death in this book, have you all noticed?

hahaha Joan P, we have a modus operandi here? Hahahaa

Super point on the mean streets and the flashing diamond ring (unless of course it’s not much to look at). Another good point on the ring possibly resurfacing, it’s in shallow water, it will be found by somebody that’s for sure.

Wonderful point on the maiden name. I don’t know what it was but I know Dad is Dead in the Drawer (and face down, to boot) a fact she mentions again in this section, says she does not have photographs, but Dad face down in the drawer?

??

I dunno, maybe this woman has a hard time letting go of things, Dad’s photo, her ring, old animosities, her former childhood friends, her former way of life, what in the world is going on with Dad! Whatever it was, it you can’t bear to display him, don’t keep him face down in a drawer where you’ll see him every time you open it, what kind of masochism is that? Maybe he’s under towels.

Too funny on the memorizing of the Aeneid, we may as well, as you say an amazing “coincidence” of hahahaah characters continually referring to it. I can’t, for some reason, get a grip on it, it may be the translation, the Fitzgerald. I read it, and it’s gone.

Didn’t you LOVE the part where they compared all the translations and then tried to come up with a word of their own? What fun.

YES on the “en effet, “ in fact it got to me in the first section, I think I counted 6 references then there are tons more now, she used to teach French and you and Mme did, too, do you use "en effet" like a cuckoo clock? (En effet?) hahahahaha

I must admit tho, I will get a pet phrase and use it ad nauseam till people tell me to stop, (like “purpose and goals?”) so I’m a bit more in sympathy with that than I would normally be.

Marvelle, so when Aeneas left the Gate of Ivory then it might have all been an illusive dream? That fits in with some of the things in this book, elusive? Blue water?

Married the blue water, I’m still on that unless she means the health club and the swimming and the ring in the water, as you say, but there she is plunging in the water at Regent’s Park (which is not blue).

(BTW, Valeria, the driver, is a classical name too, (it means “a kind of eagle,” ) so another “coincidence,” and that makes 5. What’s the name of the woman with the no longer liipoma? What does Anais mean? Is the author giving us yet another clue here?

I am wondering this evening if perhaps there is a bit more of a culture shock or…I’m not sure how to put this, difference in understanding if an English person read this and a New Zealander say or an American? (I think that covers all our countries?) In Edit: And Norway!!!!!!!!

I wonder if a person from England might see a certain….restraint here (I know I’m not going to be able to explain this) and a I don’t want to use the word ladylike…sort of being hemmed in and thus root for every tear, every towel over the head, every bit of emergence from the staid chrysalis that I simply don’t see?

I guess I’m asking are the societies and cultures we live in that different?

Several of you said it could have been any person anywhere and I guess that ‘s true, but I’m not sure…I dunno. I think sometimes in reading this there’s another elusive level here we’re not grasping, another slant on it.

I loved the bit about the umbrella, and that she’d have to return, and I thought this was super writing:

I hesitated, in the narrow hallway, and peered into the cobbled mews through the thin glass panes in the door. Rain was descending in torrents.

You can see that, can’t you?

Let’s try to decipher Mrs. Jerrld’s tape tomorrow? The author says, variously of it, “Is it a recording of the death of Jane Richards in the Lady Pond?”

Why on earth does she keep talking about the Lady Pond and Jane?

“Perhaps she has lent me a recording of the squeaking souls of the dead in the Underworld.”

Somehow I doubt it’s either of those two things, do you have any idea what it might be? Why it’s in the plot? What it means?

Have some fabulous pictures of the ruins near Tunisia, tune in tomorrow, she’s VERY lucky!

P&G

I loved your post, Ginny. Here are some thoughts.

You say, "What in her life will serve the purpose (have the same result) as the Golden Bough did for Aeneas? It got him what he wanted." Candida has wanted to trace the route of Aeneas. The windfall she's received is allowing her to do what she wants to do. It is, in my mind anyway, a kind of Golden Bough. Was Candida contemplating buying a lottery ticket when she thought about "plucking the Golden Bough"?

The Hour Glass. Once I was having some sort of weird test in a doctor's office. I was put in a small room and had to lie down on an examining table. Then the doctor shut the light off and left the room. The room was absolutely pitch black. I've never seen such darkness before or since. After what seemed like a long, long time -- probably only a couple of minutes -- I thought I was dead. I guess what Candida felt can really happen.

If Purpose is your middle name, Ginny, you probably would not see what I saw in the section about "teleological" and "onotological". Candida says that the teleological argument says "everything has a design and a purpose." She goes on to say "We weren't designed for anything. We happened to become." To me this sounds like existential thinking.

More tomorrow after I think longer about what you have posted.

Mal

Dear Ms Purpose, I'm going to buy a house and torment you by keeping the purpose for having the house a secret. The house and I just 'became'. You must have been a terrible math student. I was. I kept asking 'what's the purpose of these numbers? why are we wasting our time with numbers if there's no purpose to them? why should I care about the square root if it doesn't lead me anywhere?'

If, my dear Ms. Purpose, you're wondering what Candida needs with the GB; of what use would it be to her.....? Isn't she trying to shed her old self and be reborn as Aeneas was reborn with the help of the GB? Isn't that why she keeps imagining and practicing her own death? -- creepy though it is.

I think the point is that Candida doesn't know or have what would suit as the Golden Bough or a substitute for the GB. Not yet anyway and maybe never. Perhaps the GB symbolize something of value earned and offered as a sacrifice. Candida's ring was worth money and she chose to sacrifice it. Will the ring be acceptable if it's worth money even though Candida doesn't value it?

She's having a difficult time discovering where and how to sacrifice. She's hasn't done much of that in her life and she's vague about how to start. The pool in a health club is symbolic to impressionable Candida but I mean, really, a cement pool in a sweaty gym?

These are guesses on my part. Ginny and friends, tell me your guesses on the 'Purpose.' I'll respond to other points in Ginny's post later, after giving myself some time to think about the various points.

Marvelle

5. Julia's complaint about respect. She's probably an author & TV playwright like Jackie Collins & Norah Ephron. Famous & successful, but not invited to literery festivals or to speak at seminars on writing.

8. Children hear the saying "Have a good cry - you will feel better" as being given approval for a good wallow.

9. "Endless Fate" is another version of "Interminable life"?

10. In UK, many non-conformist church's consider playing cards, gambling & boozing to be sinful in the eyes of the Lord.

16. If everybody agrees the golden bough is misteltoe (a parasitic plant), most entries advise carrying a sprig when entering the underworld to ensure their return. Mythologically many people returned from the underworld - Inanna for one.

17. Inviting Sally to Africa was explained in full by Candida when she was considering it. Summed up, it was a generous impulse based on being fair to her because it had been her idea first.

The huge landmark for women in UK turning 60 - we get our pension at that age, & Londoners get our travel permits allowing free bus tube & train travel. We take our birth certificate & photographs to the post ofice, & the person behind the grille smiles & says "Happy Birthday Madam". A windfall is jam on top.

Mal: It is my feeling that Candida's interest lies principally in the quest because she's "becoming." Yes, and since she doesn’t know her purpose that’s why she doesn’t like the teleological views.

Viogert, I also like the "order in urban chaos" theory of the plastic bag in the Regent’s Park basin, and I also see an almost unreasonable tenacity in her pursuit of the bag, such a small item in the overall scheme of things. It reminds me of Holden Caufield’s seeing the FY’s on his sister’s school walls—cover it up and it’ll just reappear again (or at least that’s what it was like at our school much later).

Lou2: Hah! I love the fact that MD may be "ragging" on Byatt for using "lumpen" wrong (or at least it seems wrong to me).

As for asking Sally—I think CW seems to be a person of personal integrity, and the fact that Sally brought the whole thing up in the first place would leave CW feeling that she "owed" it to her to invite her too even if she made her miserable the whole time. Again, I can relate. And I think it’s possible to like someone while at the same time despising some of their personality traits.

Joan, yes I have a Mac and I don’t really set it—Microsoft Word checks for spelling and usage automatically, though it sometimes doesn’t get all my dashes and parentheses. J

Ginny, I don’t use "en effet," but maybe I’ll start!

I do think the money made a difference in affording her the freedom not to worry about money, to take a big step like such a journey without pinching pennies. For that matter, maybe the money is the Golden Bough (I’m being facetious, but….), gaining her entrance to a new world.

I agree the "sands in the hourglass" was weird. I’m at a loss, but it’s late. Maybe I’ll think tomorrow.

The editorial comment about plucking the Golden Bough does come when Candida is thinking about buying a lottery ticket. ( 98-99 ) Her solitaire game has come out twice running; she's about decided where she's going to buy the ticket -- in a "shop that sells deadly wares" where "nothing will do you any good." This is a woman who thinks card playing is sinful. Surely gambling is worse. She also is a woman who was raised to be righteous and good to the point where she feels guilty about playing solitaire at no stakes at all, and beats herself about being bad when she's done nothing at all.

Marvelle says Candida finds it hard to know where and how to sacrifice. I say she's sacrificed herself all her life and that she finds it hard to know how not to sacrifice. Wanting to play sinful solitare and buy a lottery ticket is a step in the right direction, in my opinion. It's about time this woman raised a little hell in her life.

Joan, Candida was using the spell check on her laptop when she discovered it would recognize "unladylike" but not "ungentlemanly."

Sometimes I think we're applying what's in the Aeneid to Candida a little too literally.

Mal

Below is a link to a map of Cumae. The Avernus Lake is in the upper left. Scroll down through the fun stuff to see the route Aeneas took.

CUMAE

Nice geographic map, Mal. To see actual photos of the site including the Lake and the Cave and more check out the link "The Cumaean Sibyl" which is in the Interesting Links. The map and "The Cumaean Sibyl" are good complements to each other. Oh, also check out the Int.Links for photos and information found in "Phlegrean Fields."

About the plastic bag in the fountain on pages 126-128. Candida notes that "all the rubbish floating in the water [while walking along the canal] reminded me of that afternoon I have tried to forget." (126) Candida makes the allusion on her canal walks to the Aeneid; that it's like the lost souls, the suicides and the unburied, who are on the far shore of the river waiting to cross. But they'll have to wait 1000 years (I think that's the timeline) and they can't swim across, that doesn't work. Charon won't take across the unburied souls.

Candida was soaked from the rain, feeling depressed, trapped, shamed, desperate, and time had stopped and would not move forward for her. (126-7) Then she notices a white plastic bag floating in the fountain of the Rose Garden in Regent Park. She wades in and fishes it out

Candida identifies with the discarded white plastic bag which has been used and casually tossed away and forgotten. She says "The plastic bag offended me. It seems to sum up my despair. It floated, half submerged, yet not sinking, in miserable suspension." (127) This is how Candida sees her existence.

So she rolls up her trousers and wades over to the bag and then gives it a proper burial in the trash bin. She even calls the white plastic bag a "watery bag" and how strange but dead-on is the identification of that bag to a soaked Candida? And now that the bag has been properly buried, it can cross to the underworld as a symbol of Candida herself, for Candida.

She finds that she's been watched by a man she assumes to be an outsider like herself (127) Actually, I see the carrying on with a towel over her head as a young girl (132) as being linked to the plastic bag episode through the romantic self-image of outsider and through self-awareness of her behavior as being extreme.

Candida in her heart knows that this identification of herself with the white plastic bag is only symbolic and she feels ridiculous. She says "I felt better for this pointless act. I can recall it, now, without desperation. / But looking back, this was a low point." (127)

Marvelle

Good analysis, Marvelle. I think Candida has needed to rescue ever since Jane drowned herself -- or even before, when she was so miserable and trapped and could do nothing to rescue herself. In a way I think she's trying to rescue Sally by inviting her to go on the trip. She's beginning to see everything with different eyes now.

We're talking about Ancient Greeks in Crotona, Reggio, Poseidonia and Cumae in the Story of Civilization discussion right now. That's how I happened to find the map I posted earlier.

Mal

Just dropping in for a hasty moment to say that AT LAST! the book arrived on Saturday and by a hasty reading I've caught up through Part I. It was interesting to follow the expansion of the narrator's personality as the spectrum of her social contacts broadens and she begins to take the initiative. I was somewhat taken aback, though, when she notes that it is not surprising that all in the travel group seem free as to selection of dates.

"We are of the third age. Our dependants have died or matured. For good or ill, we are free."

Well, that may be valid as to economic obligations, but it indicates her continued lack of concern for moral obligation to the mother in th nursing home, perhaps also to the daughters. There's a long way to go yet.

Now I'm going to try to catch up on this lively discussion.

Carolyn A.

Hi, Carolyn, Great to see you here!!

There is not much left for me to say today except to answer a question.

I am a New Zealander of Scottish/English descent. Very proper grandparents with typical reserve and I find English literature very comfortable. I love it! I suppose I am reserved and very polite - to be so is natural to me. I have come out of my shell somewhat in latter years in that I now can speak comfortably with a stranger if its in a situation I like for instance I found myself having a great conversation with a lady in a second hand book shop this morning. The most marvellous bookshop I have ever found. More about this in the appropriate discussion! I do think our culture will influence how we approach our reading.

Carolyn

Carolyn, your book arrived at last! Welcome!

Mal, Candida wants to rescue Sally. Whereas before this, it was Sally doing the rescuing? And someone else thought the invitation was an obligation due Sally since she'd been the one to suggest the trip.

I'll add another idea to the question of the invite: Candida needed to prove she's no longer the "poor hare" which is how Sally treated her. Now she had money (instant status) and could show off her new station in life as well as turn the tables on Sally by treating her like the "poor hare"? She wouldn't want to admit to herself the reasons for the invitation. Still guessing.

Marvelle

Good guess, Marvelle. The rescuer is always superior to the one being rescued, isn't she? Not only that, she receives her own pat on the back and self-applause for being the hero-heroine rather than the punishment slap she put on her poor put-upon-timid-hare self in the past.

Candida has known all along that she's superior to Sally in many ways, but she let her walk all over her for years and years, didn't she? Tables have turned. Poor little Candida is not so poor any more. The money didn't do it, really. Candida had this quality of strength all along. All she needed was a spur.

"Take that, all you Headmasters of the Past," she says, as she makes it possible for scullery maid Sally and all her virginal-deficiencies-porn-interests to travel to a far and distant shore. Sally's a poor substitute for her alter ego Andrew, but the same satisfaction is there. Candida's fighting back at last on a rescue mission.

What does seer Ida Jerrold think as she sits back with her Aeneid and all the other books which are the front for what she really does? Oh, I don't know. I'd rather be playing "Gorgeous" with Gary Burton right now than muskrat rambling about this book all by myself.

Mal

Thank you, Malryn, I appreciate that. It's nice to hear people enjoying things about our book discussions, it makes everybody feel good.

So our heroine is off to Tunis and here is , (I have this book called Cities in the Sand, on ruins in the desert, and the northern coast of Africa is a gold mine, as you shall soon see, I would KILL to go there and am very envious of Candida and group!)

Here is

Timgad
Click on me to see a larger photo!

out in the middle of nowhere on the northern tip of Africa sort of across and to the left of Sicily.

I mean, would you not KILL? And there are tons more and I'll bring some in, you'll be agape. I was, and am.

Carolyn!! Welcome home, we are delighted to see you again and I agree on her mother and her children, in fact I was brought up short by her statement in this section (page 104) of her children, "I've left them behind. I'm living in another world now."

I didn't know you left your own children behind, I can't relate to this person when she talks like this.

Ok so Malryn has identified the windfall as the Golden Bough, that's good.

Was she contemplating the lottery ticket? I'm not sure what she was contemplating, the question is in the gloss on page 95, and follows her remark that she'd give Sally class, and something about Mrs. Jerrold, you all go look and see what she's saying there?

… you probably would not see what I saw in the section about "teleological" and "onotological True? hahahaha

Existential thinking? She's existentialist? Whatever she is, I find illogical.

Marvelle, haahahaha, on the house purpose, "You must have been a terrible math student.", yes indeed, in fact, I have progressed proudly into Math Illiterate. Bingo on the way we were taught but the newer texts do explain the why, it's actually quite a revelation. too late for me, I can't remember...what's WRONG with the Fitzgerald translation, it's as if I'm reading paper! Have ordered the Loeb, can't stand this! They say it won't come till the 27th so we'll just wait, right? hahahaahha

WHAT? WHAT?? "Isn't she trying to shed her old self and be reborn as Aeneas was reborn with the help of the GB? Isn't that why she keeps imagining and practicing her own death? -- creepy though it is."

Reborn? Out of the Underworld? hmmmm Interesting. I never thought of Aeneas that way of course I'm reading the FITZGERALD so who knows what is actually said?

snort

I think Virgil's Aeneid is her Golden Bough. If she had not taken the class, she would not have had anybody to call and invite on the trip, nobody to talk about these exciting things with, no reason to go forth, nothing. If she had not had the class what would she have done with the windfall? It seemed to give her temporary courage, but she admitted afterwards she didn't need it, but without the class she wouldn't have had the trip, the group or the reason for going.

Viogert, super point on Collins and Ephron, you know another one is Stephen King, he gets NO respect from the literary world but he's a heck of a good writer.

Endless fate and interminable life? Sounds good, what makes her think she's immortal? or interminable?

I'm afraid I don't agree the golden bough is the mistletoe despite what Drabble herself says in the quite long passage stating just that, I believe, and I may be wrong, that she's mistranslated it, but I won't argue it, tho I did go back over it in Latin, it's...as Drabble so sweetly pointed out earlier an Epic simile (about something else).

OH and I’m so glad you explained the turning 60 in the UK!!!!!!!!!!! I kept wondering what all the commotion was about. I'll turn 60 in less than a month. When I turned 59 I thought the world was ending, but kept the towels in the drawer (I've got the Books here and you all , she doesn't). And so I set out to do 60 new things before my 60th. I've got 14 to go, am getting pretty desperate but 60 is not the end of the world, Folks.

(I would like the $194,000, tho?)

hhaahaha

Mme: I liked your take on CW as a person of personal integrity, that seems borne out, I like that.

Yes, en effet, you should begin enfin!@ hahahahaa

Malryn your official comment on the Golden Bough comes on 98-99, we must be using different texts, do you mean the gloss? Thank you for the Cumae link!

Marvelle, thanks for those connections with the plastic bag, I guess I'm more like that TV character Monk (have you all seen him, he's a hoot?) there is NO way NO amount of symbolic wanting to do anything that would put a plastic bag in MY hand especially one floating in the water, nope.

Tell me something, Guys, have I missed something here? Why all this about Jane and the water? why? What's this need to think it's Jane drowning in a tape and to think of where she drowned every time she sees water? Has the connection been expressed somewhere up till now and I've missed it?

Carolyn (NZ) , as someone reserved, do you feel more supportive or disapproving of all her angst she's expressed here, both now and in the past? Any person of compassion feels sorry at the grief of others, if it seems to be overdone or continually expressed or a pattern, I do think, I agree with you, that maybe our own culture influences how we perceive it, how did you see it? Do you think it’s important to the story as a whole? I’m wondering if it could have been left out and still had the same effect…en effet. haahahah

Marvelle, an interesting point: Candida wants to rescue Sally. Whereas before this, it was Sally doing the rescuing?

Aha, an interesting point, wonder if there will be more on that pattern? I liked Malryn’s take on this too.

Why do you say Ida Jerrold's books are only a front, Malryn?

OK Everybody, we have a couple of our group traveling till the weekend, we’ll miss them, and have just added our Carolyn in Norway with the incisive legal mind!! They’ll miss her!

I really would like to know (or is it explained further on, if so, there's no use to stop over it) what do you think the tape is that Ida Jerrold gave CW and WHY CW thought it might be all those horrible things? If I asked you if that's humor too, what would you say?

??

Sort of a black humor?

And I have a photo of "El Djem...the third largest Roman amphitheatre" in the world too (not spelled that way) for tomorrow.

BTW, I absolutely loved the new information on Naples, La Montagne del Sale Antonio Bassolino, it's clear I need to revisit Naples!

CW refers to Mrs. Jerrold as a Sibyl again on page 104, "The look of a gypsy or of a sibyl..." This, I think, is the third reference? If Mrs. Jerrold is the Sibyl and the group is tracing the steps of Aeneas to Cumae, then doesn't that make CW Aeneas?

What do you make of Mr. Barclay in this thing? What does he add to the story? What of his strange leering glances or knowing glances or strange relationship with Anais?

WHAT does this mean, on page 159, speaking of her relating her conversation with Andrew who has just called her for the first time in 3 years, "I admit to having fabricated some bits of conversation in this narrative."

What on earth does that mean? What else has she fabricated? Do you believe anything she's said now, and if so, what? Can you tell what's "fabricated" and what's not?

What not? hahahaah

Tisi

Mal: I say she's sacrificed herself all her life and that she finds it hard to know how not to sacrifice. Right on! It becomes such an ingrained habit to shop for the cheapest, etc., it’s very hard to break.

And I disagree with everyone who thinks CW is inviting Sally to show off, or even rescue her. I don’t think there’s any more to it than a sensed obligation, which is somehow related to the sacrificial aspect above. She would sacrifice some of her enjoyment of the trip to carry out this obligation. Though she says that she doesn’t give a fig if Sally gets along with the group or not.

Ginny, you’re right. She seems to think more about Jane than about her own children, though except for Ellen, I don’t blame her. And there is the water imagery again in the paragraph contrasting the "darkness, dirt and despair" on the canal with the loveliness of the Lady Pond where Jane died.

I’m intrigued with the final Wormwood Scrubs interview: "I think I will tell him the truth when I get back. If I get back." More death implications. Will she tell us the truth when she gets back?

And in this week's Entertainment Weekly music section, in reference to declining CD sales and the many scandals last year: "what the industry really needs to bottle and sell is schadenfreude."

Ginny, though I most sincerely do sympathize with your thoughts about becoming 60 because I had them, too, I have to tell you it's not all that bad. Why, it was in that year I decided to come to North Carolina and work for a Ph.D. I didn't need it; it wouldn't have done me any good, but I wanted that degree. Never got it for various reasons. I went into another field, (electronic publishing) and began writing seriously instead. Now I'm wondering how I can spark up that publishing field without signing away my life on computer programs, and how I can finish this book I'm writing? Maybe somebody will give me a program I'd like on my 75th birthday next July 2nd, and maybe I'll find a publisher, too. Wouldn't that be nice?

Ask me what my plans are for the next ten, twenty years, why don't you? I'd be happy to tell you.

Mr. Barclay is gay, so is Anais. That is what they recognized in each other.

There is no Golden Bough for Candida as stated in the Aeneid. I'll stick my neck out again and say there's nothing in the Aeneid for Candida except that she has it in her head that she should retrace Aeneas's steps. (And she doesn't.)

Mrs. Jerrold's real calling was people, not books. It's easy to know people and understand what they do. She was not a sibyl. She was not a seer. She put two and two together and came up with prophesies.

It's 11:30 where I live. I've been up since six working on web pages for the next issue of the WREX Magazine and writing a chapter of a book. I'm tired. Thoughts of The Seven Sisters and this discussion fascinate me, though, and they keep me awake. I was thinking today that there is great diversity in thinking in here. This discussion would be a university professor's paradise. For that diversity of thought and the pleasure of being here I thank Ginny and all of you.

Mal

Tisi,

Candida has said at various points in Part 1 that she can't be trusted to tell the truth. The fabrication of bits of conversation with Andrew is just one more confession by her. She's absolutely an unreliable narrator.

_____________________________________

The Underworld visit caused a spiritual rebirth in Aeneas. Previously he'd wandered in search of himself. He was heartsick for destroyed Troy and uncertain of his place in the world. Once in the Underworld Aeneas sees what it's like to be dead; he sees the results of living a good life rather than a bad one. He learns of the future Rome from his dead father.

Aeneas returns from the Underworld with these gifts of knowledge as a new man, no longer avoiding his fate and acting rather than reacting to life.

_______________________________________

Only 14 things left to do, Tisi, and you reach your goal! Once, for 2 weeks, I stayed at a Montana ranch learning to work with Belgian horses -- plowing, haying, driving (never got past four-in-hand), even logging. Loved the plowing, so peaceful; hated the logging, never peaceful. Others here may have suggestions for you. Im curious though, what are some of the things you've done in your goal of 60? It's such a wonderful challenge.

Marvelle

Marvelle: I took "(I admit to having fabricated some bits of conversation in this narrative.)" as referring to other conversations in the book, not just the conversation with Andrew, which she thought was fairly accurate. BUT would she refer to her journal as a narrative? I dunno.

Yes, it refers to more than just Andrew; and she'd already dropped many hints as to her unreliability.

I thought last night about the windfall being Candida's Golden Bough and decided I disagree. She didn't earn the windfall. Candida's father set it up and she was passive and inactive with management of the fund. She didn't even vote on the decision which is what caused the windfall. Candida offered it as sacrifice on the trip but it wasn't accepted. So I don't think the money is the Golden Bough.

Candida keeps looking for a substitute for Aeneas' Golden Bough but what was his, really? At first I thought Dido was his Golden Bough, he earned something of value (Dido) and he sacrificed it (leaving Dido) to obey the gods and meet his fate (finding an identity/homeland). Then I thought, no, Aeneas is sacrificing his soul -- the ultimate sacrifice of wrong action -- through guilt and that's his ticket to the Underworld. It is Aeneas' soul that was sacrificed through his callow desertion of Dido, and it is his guilt that hounds him to the Underworld.

What is his ticket out of the Underworld? It isn't his old soul, it isn't guilt. His ticket out is his spiritual rebirth; his new soul.

Aeneas is reborn when he leaves his self-important guilt about Dido behind him, having seen Dido's punishment for her own guilt which is self-murder; when he learns the results of living a good or bad life; when he realizes that he can actively create his future homeland which will be Rome, rather than passively wandering, hoping to stumble across a ready-made gift of a homeland.

Guilt was Aeneas' ticket to the Underworld and spiritual rebirth was his ticket out. His new life, his spiritual rebirth, will expiate his guilt. Whereas Candida is literally substituting 'things' for the Golden Bough and none have been adequate sacrifices, as far as we know, up through Part 1. We may not know until the end of the novel; or we may never know. Like the old movie serial "The Perils of Pauline", we've been given a cliffhanger, and we'll see what the future pages hold for Candida.

This is my opinion and an interpretation of the Aeneid as a symbolic journey.

Marvelle

Don't you find it hard to ignore the references to the Aeneid...when the author keeps tossing the references in our faces? Perhaps I would have agreed with you who say not to pay too close attention or to draw too many conclusions from the Aeneid during the first 86 pages, but the author is insistant now that we look more closely at Chapter 6 of the Aeneid. So many Aeneid-related questions have been identified in Part I. Those of you who have read the book more than likely have a different perspective than those of us who do not know what happens next...

I've been thinking long and hard about truth, Candida's sense of reality...truth and dreams. The dreams that come through the gate of ivory and those through horn. Dreams intrigue me. Some are such nonsense and preposterou that I laugh at them the next morning. Others seem to be warnings, or at least explanations of things I puzzle over by day. The trick is knowing which ones to pay attention to, because they may not be what they seem.

We are told that Aeneas' ticket into the underworld is the Golden Bough..and he enters through the gate of ivory. Greek mythology tells us:

"There are two gates by which dreams enter the world, the Gate of Horn and the Gate of Ivory. True dreams come through the Gate of Horn, and false dreams through the Gate of Ivory

Remember La Fontaine's fable? Remember what the hare said about dreaming?

A hare was dreaming in his home
Because what else is there to do at home, unless one dreams?
Into deep boredom, this hare is plunged.

Sounds like an unhappy hare, with nothing to do but dream. I really wasn't like that at all when I was a stay-at-home mom...but get the feeling that Candida was NOT the happy housewife. She spent her time dreaming of another life - a better life - one in which she would be someone different.

Is she dreaming now? Or is this trip going to happen? What assurance does she have that the dream will come off as planned? Does she have the Golden Bough? If it's the money, is this dream based on entering through the false gate of ivory? She didn't earn the money, no...but neither did Aneas "earn" the Golden Bough.

Has Candida done anything on her own, other than dream - to make this trip happen? Do you think that the trip would have happened anyway without this unexpected "gift?"

Why did Andrew call? He seemed surprised that she was going on an "educational" trip. He hadn't understood that from Sally...thought it was a pleasure trip. Where did the money come from...is that what he wants to know? Notice how she doesn't want him to know where she got the money from...BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LOSE HER ALIMONY. What does that tell you about her new-found independence? Anything? I notice a little cloud on the horizon too...the suggestion of a capital gains tax or something. Can it be that this windfall is not without future headaches for one who is not paying a bit of attention to the fine print...to the hard realities?

Basically, I find Candida not that much changed. She still waits for things to happen to her. She waits to win the lottery as she waits to win at solitaire. She's still "dreaming" in so many ways. She is not really DOING anything to change her life. What is her "purpose" in going to the land of Aeneas, as Ginny asks? Will it change her? Will she be a new person because she took the trip? Was Aeneas changed, redeemed? Why was Aeneas in the underworld anyway? To seek atonement for leaving behind in Troy the unburied, unmourned bodies of his compatriots? To bury his dead father?

Does Candida hope to bury her former self? Is this the way to do it? Or is she using the wrong gate?

Thank you for your interpretation, Marvelle. Here all the time I thought Aeneas plucked the bough from a tree.

Ginny, I have the Harcourt edition dated 2002. On Pages 98 and 99 Candida is thinking about buying a lottery ticket.

Candida's former husband and all three of her children rejected her. Was she supposed to hang around in Suffolk knowing this and torment herself about why it happened and spend her life thinking of ways to win them back? That would have been a continuation of her living for someone else rather than herself.

What other obligation did she have to her mother in a nursing home than to pay her bills if that became necessary? Candida's mother would have beaten her verbally about her failed marriage if she went to see her. Why should she expose herself to that or any other sort of negative treatment by these people, who showed their love through rejection and criticism?

My husband and children rejected me, too. I first moved 200 miles away from them to Massachusetts, but the thought of them kept pulling me back to New York, an easy and pretty drive. Were they glad to see me when I went for a day or two? No. They acted exactly as they had before. Each time I did this, it took time to pull myself back on the road I had created for myself and myself alone, a path that was necessary if I was to survive.

A few years later I had a windfall nowhere near the size of Candida's. I moved 1000 miles away from my adult kids to a place where I wouldn't have to cope with ice and snow, a near physical impossibiity alone for me. Just as my mentor told me they would, all three of my children followed me down and ended up on my doorstep, not just wanting me to take them back, but wanting me to take them in. Having not progressed very much from where they were before, they constituted a disruption in my life because I had gone a long way from what I was before my marriage and life with them ended. I am able to understand Candida's feeling about her kids very well.

I suspect that many of the questions we have now will be answered as the book goes on.

Mal

Candida and the angst expressed in the book so far.

People who are more open in their emotions express them as they go along. Reserved people often suppress them. I think this journal as I like to think of the book, is a medium for Candida to express her suppressed feelings. Feelings which have not had any expression before. Interesting aside- I am listening to another Drabble book at the moment it is full of dysfunctional relationships but it is basically the story of a mother who is less than motherly or grandmotherly, and the relationship with her adult children and their families. I think there is something in Drabbles life that haunts her whether it is from her own childhood or was she as a writer and academic a distant mother. The mother in the book I am at present reading is a distant mother, writer and academic.

I feel this book would not be the same without the angst which is so prevalent in the first 86 pages.

Carolyn

Joan, we posted at about the same time.

Candida is doing nothing? If that's the case, who is the woman who left family and all things familiar to move to London alone? That's doing nothing?

If other women I know and I are any example, I can easily say it took all of us five years to get on our feet and start "moving."

I was in a similar position to Candida when I inherited money. There was no way I could keep this fact from my ex-husband because his parents lived in the same city where the uncle who raised me and left me money lived. There was a terrible fear on my part that I'd lose the very small alimony (a good deal less than $1000 a month, probably a similar amount to what Andrew gives Candida) because of this windfall in my life that spelled a considerable amount of freedom for me in the form of an old singlewide trailer with a tin roof that I bought in Florida. How long would Candida's windfall last if she had no alimony and had to use it to live? Not very long. Nor would the money I inherited. This has nothing to do with independence. How much Capital Gains Tax would Candida have to pay? Not much if my inheritance was not taxed at all.

You say, "Get a job!" Who would hire Candida at age sixty, untrained to do anything except teach a language she was rusty in? What should she do, pick gum tears up off the sidewalk? Nobody would hire me at a younger age because I'm handicapped. Doors at prospective jobs were shut in my face before they were even opened.

Be kinder to Candida, please. She's gone through a terrible siege. In my opinion, she deserves every break she can get.

Mal

Malryn --- well thank you for THAT. It's lovely to hear somebody defending Candida for once. And I was wondering if I had come to the right house. Why are we discussing the mythical life of a Trojan nogoodnik like Aeneas, simply because some old women are reading Dryden's translation of Virgil, with a copy of the text, & translating it a bit themselves. It simply gives a meaning to their little night class & a meaning to their jaunt. I see no connection whatsoever between Candida & the Aeneid, & I am sick to death of the golden bough & the underworld - but I am very interested in the old women.

Kiwi Lady - You are presumable reading "The Peppered Moth" -supposed to be based on Drabble's mother. Nobody liked the book - she hoped to lay the ghost of that thoroughly disappointed clever woman, but it was beyond her. She had risen like a rocket from a small town school, to get a scholarship to Cambridge. She was a brilliant scholar & gained a first class degree, then the war broke out & was offered a job teaching at her old school instead of a decent career. She married the only other working class scholarship boy in their town - he had read law at Cambridge & joined the armed forces. Everybody must have thought there was nobody else for them to marry but each other, so they did. Drabble loved her father - fretted desparately over whether her mother had been in love with him? In those times, girls married the first suitable boy to ask, & were expected to make a career of marriage. I think her mother was absolutely gutted. After doing so well & getting so far - she never had the chance of a career, so she stayed at home & raised four kids & with a man who really expected her to housekeep & raise kids.

Joan Pearson -- where does it suggest Candida is afraid her alimony will be cut if Andrew knew about her little windfall? There was outrage earlier because she didn't have a hotshot lawyer to get a better deal - but what sort of avaricious wife dumps her diamond & sapphire ring because of its association. She is either one thing or another but not both.

I've forgoten who suggested what Mr Barclay & Anais had in common was their homosexuality should read pp1953/4 - p196. Anais has a friend who deals in embroidered fabrics - she inspected Mr Barclay's very closely. He gives her the address of a Kairouan dealer who sells embroidered shawls. Anais mentions she knows the Holy City of Kairouan & its blind camel. Dealers help each other - if she finds reasonable shawls in The Street of the Weavers, she will probably bring him one back & a business arrangement will begin. Anyway, Candida saw their rapport - 'a look of belated recognition'. And concluded "I do not think it was sexual".

Mal: How much Capital Gains Tax would Candida have to pay? Not much if my inheritance was not taxed at all. Remember this is not an inheritance; it is a bonus from a stock takeover, so it might well have tax consequences.

Viogert: Good to hear from you again! I like your down-to-earth comments, and I like CW a lot, too. I think we have more sympathy for her than some, for whatever reasons.

However, you ask, where does it suggest Candida is afraid her alimony will be cut if Andrew knew about her little windfall? On p. 139, immediately after receipt of the check, thoughts race through her head, including (1) Andrew might be mad, (3) he might try to cancel or reduce her alimony, and (4) would it be legal for him to try to reduce her alimony. (2 & 5 have nothing to do with Andrew.) So, yes, the thought has occurred to her, and that’s one reason she doesn’t want him to know about it. Another reason is that it’s none of his business at this point. I don’t consider her avaricious as much as careful. This is her "mad money," but she still needs money to live on, or at least so she thinks.

I must admit that when she talked about inviting her friends, at first I thought she was going to pay for everything. Imagine my frugal relief upon discovering that she was only paying for the minibus.

Joan: Do you think that the trip would have happened anyway without this unexpected "gift?" If we are to believe CW, no.

It has occurred to me, over the past weeks, that if I’d been a different kind of person, a person with initiative instead of the kind of person who always waits for things to happen, then I could have organized this trip without coming into the £120,000 of unexpected and unmerited lucky money. … But the truth is that this project, without the unexpected wealth bonus, would never have occurred to me. (pp. 147-

This financial freedom truly seems to have changed her. She speaks of her "new and challenging voice," for example. My only question: is such a great transformation realistic?

As far as I can tell from searches I've done, Mme, capital gains are capital gains no matter where they come from. The "unexpected wealth bonus" is a spur. Sometimes we need a spur to move on.

Mal

I don't believe that's true, Mal, in this country.

I don't know the tax laws in England, but an inheritance does not fall under "capital gains" in this country, according to my CPA. Whether or not it's taxable is related to the total of the estate, whether it exceeds the federal "limit", how close the party is to the deceased (ie, a spouse, a child, etc.) and many other items. In these cases it may be a "gift tax" or an "inheritance tax" but it's not, as I've been told, a "capital gains" tax.

Capital gains has to do with stock price gains, etc.

I find it interesting that Candida doesn't know about "new age," aromatherapy, current whatever, but she's aware of "capital gains" on stock windfalls.

Mal, a capital gain is the increase in value of something between the time you buy it and the time you sell it. There are no capital gains taxes on inheritances because the cost basis for items passed on to heirs is their value at the date of death. Thus there is no "gain."

CW had put a certain amount of money in her pension fund, and its increase in value might be taxed when it is disbursed, especially in a lump sum like that.

Right, Susan.

Here are the definitions I found:

capital gain
The amount by which an asset's selling price exceeds its initial purchase price. A realized capital gain is an investment that has been sold at a profit. An unrealized capital gain is an investment that hasn't been sold yet but would result in a profit if sold. Capital gain is often used to mean realized capital gain. For most investments sold at a profit, including mutual funds, bonds, options, collectibles, homes, and businesses, the IRS is owed money called capital gains tax. opposite of capital loss.

capital gains tax
A tax assessed on profits realized from the sale of a capital asset, such as stock.

Source: http://www.investorwords.com/cgi-bin/getword.cgi?708

Actually, Jane, CW is unaware of that, too. It is Mr. Barclay who brings it up, and CW thinks: "Did he mention something called Capital Gains Tax? I wonder what that is." (155)

Ah...I'd forgotten that. So, that's more in character, isn't it, that she wouldn't have a clue about "capital gains" tax.

Thanks.

I stand corrected. But how important is this talk about capital gains in our examination of Candida and her life? She and Sally and Julia and Mrs. Jerrold and Anais and everyone else who went on that trip are what interest me.

I agree with Viogert that the Aeneid has little to do with Candida, her relationship with these old women, or their trip. The Aeneid is the glue which brought them together and a spur, as far as I can see, but it is how they react to each other and what they see with their very different backgrounds that I find intriguing in this book.

Mal

It's probably just an innocent remark, but my pessimist antennae homed in on it, so it looms in the back of my mind.

Mme, I don't think capital gains amount to a hill of beans in this book.

Mal

No I was not referring to the book quoted above I was referring to The Witch Of Exmoor. I must read more of Drabble- we now have two books where Drabble shows a very cool parent-child relationship. I cannot help thinking Drabble is fixated with this parent/child estrangement.

Mal I agree with you on some points. Candida has had a hard time but I still believe many of her misfortunes were of her own making, in saying this I still feel compassion for her. I hope she makes it!

Mal is right Anais is Gay, but however I did not pick up on this til well on into the book.

Just finished grooming one tiny very naughty dog. I have to have a rest now! Had to pop in and read the posts first however!

Carolyn

Mal, you said earlier, "I suspect that many of the questions we have now will be answered as the book goes on." I suspect (nay, expect) so, too. But I would rather discover for myself that Anaïs is gay, or that the Capital Gains Tax reference was just a red herring. But then maybe you are just making astute guesses, not leaping ahead, in which case I apologize for thinking you are getting ahead of us.

Guesses, Madame. I read this book in early December when the power was off for 7 1/2 days, shivering as I did because there was no heat, and it was cold. Those were not ideal conditions for analyzing a book or anything else except how cold I was.

Conclusions I post here are based on a second, in depth reading of the parts assigned that I've done recently.

Mal

Good Grief! I'm spending the week in a volunteer tax preparer's class (going on my 4th year), spending part of this morning going line by line over schedule D and I came here and you are all talking about CAPITAL GAINS ! !! Not to mention that there 32 new posts in less than 24 hours. Wow! Getting ready to run again.

Ginny, thanks for that neat picture of the ruins in North Africa. If i can trust a 14 year old memory, it reminds me a bit of Pompeii.

Viogert -- I started Peppered Moth before Christmas, to get acqauinted with Drabble, but do not particularly like it, find it unfocused, and have set it aside for a while. Re: Pension at 60 -- does one get one just for being? Do you have to put anything into it, and how is the amount you receive determined?

MmeW -- Yes, CW feels a certain obligation to Sally, but, she wants Sally to know that 1) that she has a group of friends other than Sally, and 2)That she has the means to do it.

"divorced Andrew and married the blue water" -- she's ready to move on. The blue water is her future.

Oh, I do agree that Candida is a different woman from the one who fled Suffolk for London...how did she describe it - The "city of grief?" Did she flee to start a new life for herself, or was she simply seeking anonymity? I am not sure how bold a move this actually was.

Every time I see C. taking steps that show real change, I shake my head in disbelief! Does she really believe that all she has to do is buy a lottery ticket and she'll be rich. ...or is it said with a smile and a wink, tongue-in-cheek? I mean, I say "I'm feeling lucky" when I take a chance on something...but am never ever surprised when I don't win...because I know the odds...or don't believe in "luck." Candida seems not only to believe in it, but is waiting for it to happen to her. hahaha...and it does!

But you know, I wish she had never received the landfall, because I feel she was writing herself out of her depression and learning more about her own strengths. Now, she speaks with the confidence that money brings...not from her own new-found sense of self. I worry that she is going through the wrong gate, somehow. PAH! Money! The root of all evil and discontent!

Pedln, those are interesting questions you ask...I'm sure Viogert will be along shortly to answer them for all of us. Yes, she has finally divorced herself from Andrew as she put it...does anyone remember the details of their actual divorce? Did Andrew divorce her? I have a feeling that he handled all the paperwork. But removing the ring is a signal that she is finally actively making a break from him. But not his alimony. Did any of you experience a sense of forboding at the mention of the capital gains and her admission that she knows nothing about the details of the windfall...except there is a lot of money coming her way?

One of you wrote that you thought the gals would never get around to making this trip. That's an interesting thought... The momentum seems to be too much to keep them home, though doesn't it? Hey...if I win the lottery, I'll pay expenses for all of us from Tunis. And expect the same promise from you all. Is it a pact?

Money may be the root of all evil and discontent, but it sure makes it easier to have some around when it's time to buy food and pay bills.

Candida is not the completely passive person you make her out to be, Joan. I ask, why shouldn't she want to win the lottery? What's wrong with that? Do you mean it wouldn't be money she'd worked for? Hasn't she worked enough for Andrew and those three ungrateful kids with nothing but grief as pay?

No, thanks. All I want is to go to New York and see my three year old granddaughter whom I haven't seen in over a year.

Mal

Question: I've obviously missed it, but where is there evidence that Andrew and the girls rejected Candida, and that she did not reject them? The way I look at it is that we're only hearing one side of the story, and I wonder if Andrew...and especially the girls... might not have a version in which Candida isn't the "innocent" party.

I think, too, that the Biblical quote is that the LOVE of money is the root of all evil...not the money. I'll have to go look now to see if my memory is accurate...or a sieve again.

Edit: One website cites this:

II TIMOTHY 6:10: For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Jane, did you see anything in Candida's and Andrew's relationship which would lead you to believe that she did anything but react to his behavior toward her? Surely you read about the way her daughters behaved after Andrew took up with Anthea? I know. Unreliable narrator. I guess we believe what we want to believe.

Granted that there are two sides to every story (and more, as represented here), this is Candida's story and not Andrew's, isn't it? Maybe someday someone will write about poor, misunderstood Andrew.

Mal

Yes, I saw her say that she was secretly delighted that the marriage ended...she was exhilerated she no longer had to live with him. (p. 19-20). One of her daughters says Candida was frigid, remote, unsupportive. Yes, I know she's estranged from all three. Hmmm...wonder why. The four closest people to her (Andrew and her three daughters)...and her mother makes five...all find her less than agreeable. That gives me pause!

Candida later says that Andrew was technically the guilty party (p. 50).

It's all those little snigglets of things, combined with her saying she's not always been a reliable narrator, that keep me from believing that Candida is without fault. She may be the perfect little woman, "done wrong" by all those around her, but I'm not convinced yet. She seems to have enjoyed or thrived or whatever on being "the victim" and I think Candida may have contributed to her "victimization."

Well, Jane, you don't seem to like Candida, and I'm not the one to convince you to be any other way.

Mal

Candida does speak with confidence because of the unearned money and not from any sense of a new self. Maybe the money is a hindrance to her personal development. She keeps expecting some thing to save her and make her world right. It may yet come about; it may not. I'm not sure, Jane, that Candida has changed from how she was in her marriage. She'd gone through a shock and was writing out in her Diary all those swirling emotions which, as happens, gradually calm down. Yet there are still these strange behaviors of Candida and the hostility, though socially muted, is there as well. I think though that she wants to change but hasn't figured out how to change and that's a big part of this story.

How clever of Drabble to place two scenes close together, one where Young-Candida carries on with a towel over her head, and the other one with Mature-Candida wallowing in a fountain to rescue a plastic bag. We are supposed to note -- and cannot avoid noting as careful readers -- all the flashing arrows pointing to the similarities in the two scenes.

The arrows include an overacute sense of herself (which is quite the opposite of being sensitive), the bizarre behavior, the outsider-don't-belong-here thoughts, and looking at her reflection in mirror/stranger.

Mature-Candida is still much like Young-Candida except that she feels embarrassment for herself.

Since the two Candidas -- Young and Mature -- are quite similar and they bookend Wife/Mother Candida, Drabble's saying Candida hasn't changed significantly over the years. Well, that's not good, for who wants to be around someone who swaddles her head with a towel and bawls with satisfaction?

Andrew, the years of marriage and motherhood, the failure of that marriage -- none of these made any fundamental change in her as Drabble points out in the two scenes. We can't blame a bad marriage for Candida's lifetime behavior.

She does admit to embarrassment and to bad behavior towards those around her. I think that's an encouraging sign. The issue of change is the strong link between the "Aeneid" and "The Seven Sisters".

______________________________________

I assusmed all along that people understand the symbolism of the Aeneid. The Golden Bough, has its physical manifestation as an evergreen, and it symbolizes something else by taking the abstract and making it concrete; and the trip to the Underworld is a dream.

There are allusions to many literary works and authors within "The Seven Sisters" which creates a complex novel with layered meanings. That makes all the difference between pop novels that are clean and simple but soon forgotten, and a literary novel that requires a close involvement with every aspect of the text that makes it rewarding and a lasting work.

For instance this section of the novel we're currently reading alludes quite clearly to VW and her Diary. This discussion group has lots of differing opinions and that makes the reading more exciting and fun.

Marvelle

How many of us really change from what we are when we are young to what we are as an older person? It is the non-acceptance of what we are by a spouse or partner that causes problems. Women are more prone to do and try to be what their husbands want than vice versa, thus they lose their identities, unlike the man to whom they're married.

After many years of marriage, Candida has lost her identity. It is that she seeks, not change.

Mal

"El Djem, third largest Roman ampitheatre in the world," (page 154)

Click to enlarge!

You've all raised so many interesting points and whatever you may think about the Aeneid, you have to admit the author has spiced up her story of turning 60 with a bang. Whatever Candida may have been, whatever marginal part she once played, she's doing her 60th or nearing 60th in style, the Grand Tour almost (to a Classicist) a dream.

Above we have what Drabble called El Djem, also called El Jem, in present day Tunisia. The ancient Thysdrus, which stood inland, about 25 miles from the sea, "particularly flourished in the 2nd and 3rd centuries as a result of its production and sale of olive oil." (Ancient Rome).

I've been thinking hard about my inability to grasp the Aeneid, as compared with the Odyssey and the Iliad, both superior stories. It occurs to me that as a literary device, the Odyssey and the Iliad would not fit? Most people have had a couple of years of high school Latin and thus might enjoy fussing over Virgil's Aeneid, offering their own translations of words. Few if any people took "high school Ancient Greek," and there's where the problem lies. For an Odyssey of a character, and most of us in our late 50's take some kind of interesting new course or experience (this alone here, discussing a book on the internet, is an experience), the Aeneid, with AEneas and the Underworld, must have seemed a perfect fit?

I'm not so sure it is.

Drabble wants our little ...what is she? She keeps talking about parasites (pages 151, 125) Big long paragraph on the mistletoe, identified in this book as the Golden Bough, I don't think so, the jury's still out on the Latin there, she refers to parasites many times in the book, does she consider herself to have been one?

So here she is, note how the author keeps honing in on Book VI, the Underworld. It's got to symbolize something to the plot and the protagonist. Has her life BEEN an Underworld, as some of you have suggested, and now she's going to get out?

Of course classical references are hot right now, everybody's doing it, according to a recent article in Book Magazine, it's HOT. "I might be able to work them into the plot," says Julia, (page 94) .... the question is, DID Drabble manage to work the Aeneid into the plot? Those who question why we're looking at the Aeneid would seem to indicate not?

Odds and Ends:

Another reference to Seven is this: "We'll be seven, anyway, if you include the driver." (page 157)

Who the Sisters are, to me, at least, is still hidden.

I was quite struck by this photograph and thought I'd include it here and in the heading. It shows a Medusa from the Forum of Septimius Severus in Leptis Magna, also in Africa. I think one of the most stunning things about Rome is the tons of stuff just like this lying around on the ground.

Tomorrow you'll see a sight here you won't believe, a theater to end all theaters at Sabratha, the City of Monuments, on the African coast, formerly Numidia, before that, a Phoenician town.

I figure if SHE can go on a trip and take us with her the least we can do is enjoy the ride. hahahahaa

"I lauged when my 'personal trainer' asked me what my 'fitness aims' were. At my age you don't have aims. You run in order to stand still."

Do you agree with Candida that at 60 you can give up any aims of fitness or anything else, and that from that point on you're merely trying to tread water and stay above the water line?

What does this show about her philosophy of life?

What does Candida mean by "It would be good to travel in the footsteps of Aeneas. He stepped whole and unharmed out of the flames of Troy and abandoned the dead and the enslaves and went on his ruthless glittering way (Creusa, o Creusa)."

Does Candida here blame Aeneas for the death of his wife, Creusa? Is she making a parallel between Andrew and herself ("Life has made me redundant," (page 133) and "I neither live nor die," (page 125).

" Carthanginem esse delendam" References to Carthage are sprinkled throughout the book (Hamilcar, Dido, Carthage, etc)... what did this very famous phrase mean originally? Does it signify anything to the story?

I am, unfortunately, seeing some racism here or a bit of bigotry, what does that say about the character?

It's interesting to me the constant comment on jewels. Julia wears dangerous fingers full of jewels. Candida refers to her tooth as a " jewel of a tooth."

One has to wonder how much of a classical scholar Drabble is. For instance does she know of the famous Roman legend of Cornelia, the Roman matron who, complimented on her riches and beautiful jewelry, pointed to her children and said "those are my jewels.." One idly wonders if perhaps, Drabble does know of this story, she is making a contrast and a pitiful one at that, about "discarded jewels."

"So by all means invite your frightful friend Sally." (page 156).

Did this stop you at all? What is it Candida has said about Sally? She says earlier that "I did not flatter her in my introduction of her, but I must have managed to make her sound acceptable, for they all agreed without a murmur that I should be allowed to invite her to join us." (page 155)

WHAT has she said and why would she expose Sally to that prejudice? Won't that get back to Sally? What does this say about our ingenuous narrator?

ginny

Thank you, Malryn, I agree with you, this discussion is good, and we're doing a splendid job with it, thanks to you all.

Mme, an excellent question! I missed this entirely, and will add it to the new ones I just put up in the heading: "I think I will tell him the truth when I get back. If I get back." More death implications. Will she tell us the truth when she gets back? <

Marvelle, I have always wanted to do that and have a driving horse, my horse does not drive, unfortunately. Your experience with the Belgian horses sounds wonderful.

I enjoyed your analysis of the Aeneid and what was Aeneas's ticket in and out, symbolically!

Joan P, Wonderful take on DREAMS and the two gates, I'll put your super question in the heading, too! Both of them! What do you think Aeneas is doing in the Underworld? I love that thought on is she using the wrong gate, marvelous.

Carolyn NZ, thank you for the parallel of Drabble's other book, it helps to know about recurrent patterns. I agree that the book could not be the same without all the angst of the first part, to contrast off the hope of this second part, good thought.

Viogert, sorry you are sick to death of the Aeneid, I appreciate your frankness and your defense of the character: Drabble put all these references in there, we can't ignore it. Or I'm not going to ignore it, anyway, the elephant is taking up way too much of the living room at the moment to pretend it's not there, but you’re entitled to your opinion, as well.

Thank you for that interesting background about Margaret Drabble, it's very useful.

Mme, I also thought she was going to pay for the trip, that part was interesting. I read it very closely, but she's not. Good point.

...and I see the girl with the no longer lipoma is called Jenny and she's not going on the trip.

Jane thanks for the Capital Gains information, wish I had some hahaahahah

Have had nothing but Capital Loss on the Stock Market this year.

Pedln, hahahah you SEE? Here you are studying Tex Preparation and here you can find all you need to know about Capital Gains! Never say we're not au courant here! You're welcome on the photo, I just put the one Drabble mentioned up there today, wait till tomorrow!!

Joan P, actually I'm not thinking we know anything about the divorce? All I remember is she thought it was her house and found herself out. I do feel a little queasy having heard about British tac so much, as to what her cut will be!

Yes, when you win the Lottery, I do want to go to Timgad, would KILL, let's do it!

Good point, Jane on the one side of the story, and I'm wondering about the "version" we're getting here, too.

I hope we can avoid getting into the trap of whether or not we "like" the character here. Or the book for that matter. Remember when we first started out here we used to quote Micky Pearlman, on the purpose of book discusisons, I have it memorized, "Avoid at all costs whether or not you liked the book. We learn something from every book we read..." I see several of you mentioning liking the character as we go and that's fine, if you like or dislike the character fine. I was, frankly shocked, in the discussion of The Remains of the Day to be asked, you don't like Miss Kenton much, do you ginny?

I had not thought of "liking" or "disliking," but merely was saying what I saw the author telling us and what that might mean. That's what you're supposed to do. I had not ought of it as "liking." Once I stopped and give that more thought, tho, I realized, no I didn’t, actually, but that was immaterial. We as readers will always identify or not, or "like" or not the characters, let's try to keep looking at what the author says about the character how the author presents the character to us and keep that foremost in our minds, if we can.

Marvelle, good point on the contrast of scenes of the "old" and "new" Candida, that WAS good writing!

I liked this:

a complex novel with layered meanings. That makes all the difference between pop novels that are clean and simple but soon forgotten, and a literary novel that requires a close involvement with every aspect of the text that makes it rewarding and a lasting work.

The way I look at this book and our book discussions is this ? We’re going to give this book our best. At the end we may find it wasn’t worth it? But nobody can say we didn’t try? I think we owe the author that much respect, and we’re giving it.

I will once again (sigh) caution you all that each reader here is entitled to his own take on the book, and his own opinion, just like you are. No person here is entitled to tell another that his own take is useless or not germane, that’s not what we’re about. It seems every time something is brought up about an aspect the author herself put in the book, people want to reiterate over and over that it’s not anything to do with the character. Ok fine, that’s your opinion and you are entitled to it, please allow others the same right and the opportunity to explore what might have been meant?

You can see Drabble herself in one of her more memorable passages, quite long, on what usually happens in a discussion, on the "tiny cry" of the dead (pages 120-121)...

I remember that we all found that phrase “a tiny cry” very telling. We talked about it for some time. We spoke of nightmares, and trying to cry out in our sleep. We talked about sleep-talking and sleepwalking, and what the ancients believed about dreams and prophecies and the gates of ivory and the gates of horn.

Quite a bit of extrapolation, and I’ve only put in a small bit, over a couple of Latin words. If Drabble thinks that’s what makes a good discussion, let’s not disappoint her in ours.

ginny

For Your Consideration:

Week II

Pages 87-End of Part I:

Week I Questions Still On Offer:

12. How many references are there mentioned in this book to the word Seven?

Seven Sisters Constellation
District of London called Seven Sisters(Viogert)
"Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings? And not one of the is forgotten before God." Epigraph
Dedication: "For Ann, Kay, Pat, Per, Viv and Al" That's six names - Seven Sisters. Is "Maggie" the seventh? (Joan P)
The name Candida has 7 letters (Mme)
"We'll be seven, anyway, if you include the driver." (page 157)

Week II:

19. "I laughed when my 'personal trainer' asked me what my 'fitness aims' were. At my age you don't have aims. You run in order to stand still."

Do you agree with Candida that at 60 you can give up any aims of fitness or anything else, and that from that point on you're merely trying to tread water and stay above the water line?

What does this show about her philosophy of life?

20. What does Candida mean by "It would be good to travel in the footsteps of Aeneas. He stepped whole and unharmed out of the flames of Troy and abandoned the dead and the enslaves and went on his ruthless glittering way (Creusa, o Creusa)."

21. "Parasites" are mentioned several times in the text, sometimes as the mistletoe or Golden Bough. (pages 151, 125).

Who in the story so far could be considered a human "parasite?" Does Candida consider herself to have been one?

22. Do you see any incidents of racism here or a bigotry in this text? If so, what does that say about the character?

23. " Carthanginem esse delendam" References to Carthage are sprinkled throughout the book (Hamilcar, Dido, Carthage, etc)... what did this very famous phrase mean originally? Does it signify anything to the story?

24. "So by all means invite your frightful friend Sally." (page 156).

Did this stop you at all? What is it Candida has said about Sally? She says earlier that "I did not flatter her in my introduction of her, but I must have managed to make her sound acceptable, for they all agreed without a murmur that I should be allowed to invite her to join us." (page 155)

WHAT has she said and why would she expose Sally to that prejudice? Won't that get back to Sally? What does this say about our ingenuous narrator?

25. "I think I will tell him the truth when I get back. If I get back." More death implications. Will she tell us the truth when she gets back? (Mme)

26. Is there evidence that Andrew and the girls rejected Candida, and that she did not reject them? (Jane)

27. Why did Andrew call? (Joan P)

28. Does Candida hope to bury her former self? Is this the way to do it? Or is she using the wrong gate? (Joan P)

For Your Consideration: ~ Week I

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23. "Censeo Carthaginem esse delendam or 'I declare that Carthage must be destroyed.' These are the famous words of Marcus Porcius Cato, spoken at the end of his many speeches while he was Censor of the Roman state. These words supposedly sparked the beginning of the Third Punic War that ended with the destruction of Carthage." It will take other minds than mine to see a relation between this statement and this book. Carthage was destroyed, and the Seven Sisters are taking a trip to its site.

19. Candida is speaking for herself, admitting her aging. I have noticed in the 14 years since I was 60 that there's a downward pull. Unless one is very, very fit, active living takes more effort than it did before. Of course, I am not "normal" because of early Polio and its side effects plus many, many injuries, all of which damaged my body, so it's hard for me to generalize. I will say that when I began publishing electronic literary magazines I was 68.

26. The evidence I see that Andrew rejected Candida is that he found another woman and kicked her out of his life. That to me is a very strong statement of rejection.

27. Andrew called because he's nosy. He knows what Candida's income is, so where did she get the money for the trip Sally told him about?

22. I don't see Candida as racist. I see her as completely ignorant about what confronts her when she moves to a seedy part of London.

24. No, this statement didn't stop me. Candida has said much about Sally, her prying, her manners, her attitudes. What she told her friends was probably the truth as she sees it.

28. The gate I see for Candida is the one at the airport. She's too smart to think she can bury her old self because that self will be part of the new, if there is to be a new one, and she knows it.

20. Candida wants to trace the route of Aeneas because she and her little reading group read the Aeneid. "Life has made me redundant" is a statement made by an aging woman who thinks she's outlived her usefulness. "I neither live nor die" reveals her depression. She's talking about herself, not Aeneas here.

As far as I know, there's not one of us here who is qualified as a professional critic, nor is this a graduate course in a college where objectivity must be the norm if someone expects her thesis to win her a degree. For that reason I see nothing wrong in stating that we like a character or we do not.

Mal

Mal, I neither expect nor want you or anyone to "convince me to be any other way."

I'm reading fiction and I'm free to believe what I like about Candida, just as you're free to think she's wonderful or whatever.

Questions:Do you agree with Candida that at 60 you can give up any aims of fitness or anything else, and that from that point on you're merely trying to tread water and stay above the water line? No, I don't agree with that. I didn't want to become a "vegetable" at 60 and think that all I was going to do from that point on was "hold on." What a "downer" of a thought. There's so much more life to be lived.

What does this show about her philosophy of life? It indicates, to me, a dour future. Sad. And yet, I can't help but think it's the same attitude/philosophy she's had her entire life. I don't see anywhere where she's imaginative or excited or just plain truly interested in much. The Virgil class seems the closest, I guess, to any "interest."

Jane, if I was out of line in my Post 307, I apologize. Candida often makes me exasperated, though I try to understand the state of mind she's in. The process she's going through is not easy.

Yes, it's hard to find much that Candida is interested in. I see imagination only in her thoughts about the Aeneid, which, of course, Drabble did bring in as a thread which holds the group of friends together and makes this journey possible. I'm inclined to think Mrs. Jerrold's take on the Aeneid is considerably different from Candida's. Wonder if we'll find out as the book goes on?

Mal

As I have read so far I find Candida a weak character. She allowed her mother to dictate to her. Many girls from wealthy families went out to work and had careers, Candida did not stand up for herself but went along with her mother's idea of what a young woman of her class was expected to do. She fell into marriage with Andrew and continued the same pattern. She never stood up for herself once! The bravest thing she did was to set off to London after the divorce. What a lot of wasted time! We only see Candida beginning to live in London. She is on a quest to find herself! The real Candida!

Carolyn

Trying to understand a character from what Drabble is telling us is not being out of line. The one discussion boundary line that's been broken here is the repeated (and repeated, and repeated, and repeated) refrain that what some of us want to explore from the text is of no importance.

Drabble, whether we like it or not, deliberately uses certain literary devices, like the unreliable narrator, allusions, symbolism. These devices are embedded in the text and I'm trying to make sense of them.

I believe that if readers take an early stance that they like/dislike a character, then the exploration of what the author says about that character, can be stopped cold. I want to see what the author says about Candida and the others, both good and bad. Drabble's already given us some different sides to Candida -- I've mentioned those 'sides' to Candida in posts -- and we're only into Part 1 of the novel!

Marvelle

Oh wow, Carolyn, there's something about Candida's mother? What page(s) is this on? Thanks for mentioning it; I missed it completely.

Marvelle

Kiwi Lady -- sorry for going on about the wrong book - I should have checked with you first.

pedln --everybody in the UK contributed to their pension throughout their working life. Wives who never worked, could claim on their husband's contribution. The employers paid quite generously towards our pensions as well.

Jane Deneve -- Andrew was the guilty party in their divorce - but with Sally's news of their first wedding anniversary, it looked as if they waited two years to use the 'irrevocable breakdown' excuse to maintain his local purity.

Ginny -- clues reveal Anais & Valeria to be black. p180. Candida's early description of pupils at the school being 'coloured' - an old fashioned term - suggesting it is still in use in Suffolk; in London she calls them black. There are a lot of black people in central London both rich & poor. They would be a novelty to Candida. We must ask a woman of colour if she thinks Candida is racist- white folks always get it wrong. About liking or not liking characters in books in discussion groups is - obviously - new to me. I read to learn, for stories - but mostly for impressions & ideas absorbed from the written word. I read hoping to be pleased by a book. I reviewed books for the newspaper I worked for, so I have experience of the alien volume. But if the books I didn't understand had a special quality, I wrote praising that. Unless your book is non-fiction & on a subject about which you would like to know more - WHY do you read? Who reads books they don't like so they can ransack them for clues to hidden meanings? What would you call a person who read that way? What do you eventually do with the tangled mess you've made with it? What use is it? It's a method resembling postmortem dissection "Ignore the smell - disregard the cadaver - emotions in this situation are exstrinsic & do not belong here". Subliminally, unfortunately - as humans, we are making value judgements throughout a book - just as everybody in the discussion is doing - whatever else we are instructed NOT to do. We bring a lot of baggage with us when we read a book.

Candida is not a racist in my opinion. I picked up no racist comments in the book. Isn't Anais of West Indian descent?

Carolyn

Vi! Postmortem dissection! Is that what how you see this? hahaha, mercy! I see sharp readers, sharing points that I have missed on my own...causing me to rethink first impressions. Like when Susan included Candida's "if I get back." What did she mean by that? I might enjoy my travels so much that I may never come back? Or does she sense danger or risk? Hadn't noticed that at all, Sue!

About the Health Club question. I suppose it counts for something that Candida took up the offer to join at all...knowing that she has no fitness goals. What does M. Drabble think of physical fitness at 60? Does she agree with her character's droll remark...? Did you find yourself smiling in agreement...or did you chalk it up as another instance of Candida's lack of concern for her own self and the importance of staying fit. Do you consider 60 old? Physically speaking? Even if you do, do you see benefits in staying as physically active as possible to enjoy life at its fullest. I'm having fun watching Drabble draw this character who in so many ways resembles herself...

Carolyn...I didn't pick up on any racial bias either. How about class bias?

Joan, I'm curious to know where you found out Drabble wrote Candida to resemble herself.

Mal

Marvelle, I haven't seen anyone telling people who want to examine the Aeneid or anything else referred to in this book that they shouldn't do it. You've mentioned "agree to disagree". Doesn't that still stand?
Viogert, I've never been in a book group anywhere except here in Books and Lit in SeniorNet. Have to explain quite sincerely that I don't know the protocol of this book group or any other. That's obvious, isn't it, by the way I keep putting my foot in my mouth?

Incidentally -- Maryal, who is a professor of English, said in The Remains of the Day discussion that dissecting a book and putting it back together are part of literary criticism. I wonder, though, just how much the book discussions here are real literary criticism and how much they are supposed to be?

Mal

Carolyn, Candida wanted to get a little job when she was a teenager. Her mother prohibited it. Is it this to which you refer?

Mal

I read books because I love books, the pleasure of entering someone else's world, the pleasure of learning, the pleasure of the writing itself. Because I love books I want to understand them and if the author uses an unreliable narrator, allusions, symbols, so be it. I will think about the complete text to see what richness in meanings are revealed. I want always to be a careful reader. Who would feel they could refuse that great pleasure?

Often we join a book discussion without having read the book beforehand. Usually I join based on word of mouth about the book or for the subject matter or because I've read something else by the author and liked it. Whatever the reason, we all join with other people to discuss a book which means there'll be many voices heard and we each expect no less than respect and the right to discuss any and all aspects of the book. No less than that.

By the end of the discussion I'm able to find something worthwhile -- first and foremost its the journey of the discussion itself that's always worthwhile. I've met new people and old friends and I've usually learned something and -- here's another joy that results from a book discussion -- perhaps I've found another author to add to my list of "must read all their works." What a gift a book discussion can be!

_______________________________________

Tisi, you brought up Joyce and the question of why Drabble chose Virgil rather than Homer. I agree that the Latin Aeneid is more accessible to readers. I wish I'd known enough to study Ancient Greek for I love those Greeks and am resigned to reading in translation which has its own perils. Also, the Irishman Joyce has a stronghold on the Odyssey and Drabble needed to explore other options.

Ancient Rome and Virgil would be a suitable historic choice for an Englishwoman I think. The Aeneid is quite different from the Odyssey and the approaches to the world are quite different in Joyce's Odyssey and Drabble's Aeneid. I hope young students are still given the pleasure of reading the Aeneid.

Marvelle

Seven: Now that we have the seven travelers named (including the driver) it's interesting to think about the version of solitaire which Candida plays.Seven cards are face up, the rest of the deck are face down,,, so that beneath the visible surface there are concealed numerous permutations aand possibilities.

Ginny, back a few days I somehow must have given you the idea I'd left a child or two behind somewhere. No, indeed. It''s true we moved a lot from place to place during the the first 15 years of marriage, but we always remembered to bundle up the whole setof four youngsters and take them along. And now, afer 46 years, they all live within easy travelling distance. Guess we're lucky!

Carolyn A.

Carolyn? No I have not said a thing about your children? That must have been somebody else. All I said was how glad I was to see you and your sharp legal mind? Maybe that was some other discussion.

How is the Land of the Midnight Sun? I'm getting to Denmark and Sweden next summer, very excited, but not to Norway. I have been in love with Norway since the Olympics but never got to go!

I'm so glad to see you here!

Malryn and Viogert, I said nothing whatsoever about you couldn't like or dislike a character?

I said in post 311 (see above)

I see several of you mentioning liking the character as we go and that's fine, if you like or dislike the character, fine.

We as readers will always identify or not, or "like" or not the characters, let's try to keep looking at what the author says about the character how the author presents the character to us and keep that foremost in our minds, if we can.

Sorry I was not clear, of course readers will like or dislike a character, what I had hoped was we might go a bit beyond that here, as a group? Perhaps not.

As far as the "Protocol" of this discussion, each participant who was preregistered was sent a very careful cordial friendly thoughtful list of what we hoped would be the procedures of respect we would follow here well in advance of our beginning date?

In addition the Pre Discussion of Seven still stands and I believe has several of our hopes for this discussion in it, as well.

Let's go forward, if you like or dislike the characters, good for you, let's let the rest of us make up our own minds, without being questioned on it.

ginny

Ginny, I have never received a list of procedures when I preregistered for any book discussion here. Would someone please send me one? Thank you.

Mal

Here you go, Malryn, I mailed this out on the 30th of December and we have some new folks here so I think I'll just post it for everybody to see, will that be OK?

Hi, Happy Seven Sisters Readers,

I'm very excited about the group now assembled for our book discussion on the 2nd of January, and, since we have so many of our group who are new to our SeniorNet Books & Literature discussions (WELCOLME!) I want to try to explain a bit about how we go about this, so we'll all be on an equal footing when we begin?

First off we, in this discusison, have divided the book into four parts and will address the material covered in the first 86 pages in the first week?

This does not mean you can't have read the entire book 100 times but we do ask that you confine your remarks, if possible, to the material covered only in those 86 pages, during the first week. It's not always easy to do, but we have found in 6+ years of leading these things it provides the most in- depth discussion experience.

Secondly, we are a very large group, we will be diverse in our opinions, of everything? I may hate the character, you may love her, I may love the writing, you may hate it. Our purpose is to hear what YOU really think about the book, my own personal preference would be for 30+ different opinions but that may not be possible. We are famous in the Books for "agreeing cordially to disagree," we want YOUR opinions and we do not seek a consensus, please feel free to state your opinion without fear.

Thirdly, I hope you all will talk to each other and remark on each other's posts, it's important, it's not a class, don't wait for me, just speak right up?

Fourthly, I think you can see there are some references to Virgil's Aeneid in the book. If you are curious about it you may or may not want to read some of the Aeneid, particularly Book VI, it's short, it's in the heading. There are also quite a few links in the heading now. We appreciate this wonderful background material, I would like to ask in submitting these from now on if you'll provide a bit of information along with it as to what we might expect to find there and what we should be looking for, (some urls have many child pages and it might help to know what you found of value there).

Fifthly (hahahaaha) Our sole purpose is to look closely at the book and hear the opinions of others. Each person will look differently. Please be sure you support the right of each person to look at the book in his own way, we'll all come away much enriched.

I am tremendously looking forward to this experience, and hearing what you have to say!

Can't wait to greet you on January 2,

Happy New Year,

Love,

ginny

Candida's lifestyle helps to keep her fit. She is a walker. The English love walking! Kiwis are very lazy in the main these days. We have our own gardens in the main of a decent size and we don't go out looking for green open spaces as we are surrounded all the time by trees and plants. The joining of the gym was not a conscious effort to keep fit - it was simply somewhere to go in the first instance when the night school closed down. Also the reduced fees were an incentive. Candida begins to enjoy the health club particularly the swimming pool. It is well known that going to the gym helps ones mental health. Perhaps the regular workout at the club is proving beneficial to her. It is important to take some regular exercise when you are older to help keep bone mass and ward off osteoporosis.

I am fascinated to see the different opinions offered here. It all makes for a good discussion! I still feel inadequate sometimes after reading such scholarly opinions!

Carolyn

(151) "There is a curious symbiotic relationship between Sally Hepburn and me. Or did I mean a parasitic relationship? A parasite, the dictionary tells me, is someone who eats at another's table."

Which of these women is the parasite? Which is the host? Or are both of them eating off each other?

Mal

Mal so far they seem to be feeding off each other!

Carolyn

Kiwi Carolyn, please let me know the page that talks about Candida's mother? I'd like to see it and figure out if that shaped her character in any way?

Regarding the question of 'giving up aims for fitness or anything else', I'd disagree with Candida. I believe people should have goals, so long as they're reasonably obtainable, whether for fun, to feel alive, to learn, to become a better person, or to be involved in life. Maybe I want to read X number of books, or learn a language (I'd still like to learn some new language), or undertake some physical challenge. Goals change too as I change but I've always found some aim in life no matter my situation.

And despite what Candida says, she does swim and walk and I think she may have a greater goal in mind. What an unfortunate person she'd be if she didn't find some aim or purpose in life and if she just gave up. For me it's the 'trying' that matters. VW gave up in the end but she'd accomplished some great work before loading her jacket pockets with stones and drowning in the River Ouse.

Marvelle

Marvelle, p. 89. CW wanted a job; Mom thought work was unladylike; CW went along with it.

Thanks you, Susan. Now I need to look at that and see if there's some significance. There's so much to look at in this book, what a delicious problem!

Marvelle

LOTS of super new questions and points brought up by some of us here in the last two days, have put them in the heading, there's a lot here to chew on today!

I thought Kiwi Carolyn raised an interesting point when she said she considered Candida a weak person. I wonder if you’d all like to give your own assessments of Candida, do you find her a weak person, a strong person or something in between, based on what we’ve seen so far (which may not be enough at this point).

I found that interesting.

Marvelle, super quotes about our reading and discussions here, many thanks.

Joan P, also a great question: do you consider 60 old?

Did you find yourself smiling in agreement...or did you chalk it up as another instance of Candida's lack of concern for her own self and the importance of staying fit. Do you consider 60 old? Physically speaking? Even if you do, do you see benefits in staying as physically active as possible to enjoy life at its fullest.

I think the research on 90 years olds and the development of muscle strength even at that age is proof that you’re never too old, perhaps the problem is getting people to try.

60 seems ancient when you’re not there yet or you’re approaching it, 50’s seems baby like, but I have a feeling 60 will seem “young” one day hahahaa IF we’re lucky.

I read the other day that there’s no reason a person should not live 120 years in the future, the new generation. I think that you’d want to have something to enjoy and look forward to mentally as well as have your health, otherwise you’d be like the Sibyl in the jar.

They do say Book Clubs and Book Discussions keep your mind sharp! Hahahaha

Here is a passage which I thought showed bias, perhaps you all disagree? What do you think?

I don’t understand a world in which black men buy fizzy water in Sainsbury’s without hesitating about the cost, while I think I can’t afford it. I suppose I could afford it, but I think I can’t. Tap water is good enough for me. Nobody has died of it yet, as far as I know. Are they all B-movie actors, like Achilles, these mineral-water drinking black men? (page 93)

Viogert, I did not know you wrote reviews of books at one time, WOW, that must have been fun! I wrote one (customers can write informal Customer Reviews on Amazon and Barnes & Noble’s websites) for Amazon last year, and got a super letter from the Publishers. I must admit it was quite a trip. The power of the written word, amazing and quite heady.

Malryn, interesting take on parasitism, I have forgotten which is the one which drains the strength out of the host? Parasite or saprophyte, not sure. An intriguing question, Sally and Candida, is either of them using the other?

I’ve been thinking about Mme’s question on the quote “If I come back,” and enjoying trying to figure out what might have been meant.

Is she saying she might just get so engrossed over there she would stay on? Make a really clean break? Is there any way we can tell what she's told the guy from Wormwood Scrubs which is not true? Which page is this in the book, I can't find it (my book is so underlined at this point there's no use looking for underlining!)

Here’s an idle thought today, have you ever considered the strange appearance of the world “spendthrift?”

It’s on page 119, excuse this segue, but isn’t the word itself fascinating? It seems to indicate the opposite of what it means?

“Cynthia says she is a spendthrift. That, she says, has always been her problem. Whatever she earns, she spends.”

Spendthrift, I love that.

Jane so you're actually not seeing a great change in her, despite the outward trip, I think that's a super point and we need to keep alert for the little things which might indicate that things are other than what we think.

Joan P, that's an excellent point: why DID Andrew call? After all that time, I bet it made her heart fall to her knees. She noticed HIS voice trembling, I am not sure how I would feel after 3 years to hear from my ex, and she gave him the tour phone number, did you all catch that? And the personalized tour reference number.

Then she says some quite interesting things:

"I am not inhuman. I do not wish to cut myself off utterly from my family.It is simply that I feel a need to redefine what my relationship to my family should be, in these survival days."

And she ends with "He is like a hole cut in my side." I think that's an incredible line.

Since Candida gave her number to her husband and only because he happened to call, does she consider him her family then?

Look at this fantastic thing? It’s hard to see the magnitude of this. This is the Theater of Sabratha, on the northern coast of Africa, which came under Roman rule in 46BC., though the theater was built in the late 2nd and early 3rd centuries.

There are three stories of tiers and if you look closely at the bottom of the stage you can see some fabulous reliefs and get some idea of the scale of the thing, amazing!

Theater of Sabratha: Click to enlarge!

Makes you want to pack your bags, and go with our Adventurers, doesn’t it? I envy them, I think it would be super.

Which one of the group do you think would make the best travel companion? Travel is work, there’s a lot of give and take among the voyagers, which one would you most like to travel with?

ginny

A saprophyte is a fungus or bacterium which nourishes itself from dead and decaying matter. A parasite is an organism that grows, feeds and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of the host. From that description, I'd say that Sally is the parasite and Candida is the host. What's interesting is that despite Candida's negative feelings about Sally and what she does and is, she can't seem to stay away from her. Candida says on Page 151:
"Was it (inviting her to go) something to do with the balance of power, or with some concept of revenge? . . . . Maybe I wanted to patronize her. . . . Or did I want to be kind? That seems unlikely. The human heart is black, so kindness cannot be the explanation for it."
I think Candida wanted to say, "I'll show you." What interests me is the fact that she thinks the human heart is black. Why? Because of what Andrew did to her? Does she think his heart is black? Or is her heart black from hurt and need for revenge?29. Is Candida weak or strong? No weak person would do what Candida has done -- move to a strange place a good distance away from family and friends where she knows no one. She appears weak because she's been obedient all her life, to her parents and then to her husband. That's why I said at one point that she needs to raise a little hell in her life. The Aeneid? The trip? Interpret that as you will.

30. To me, 60 is the threshold of old age. I think it is genes and how one takes care of oneself that determine how long one will live, barring accidental death.

I've used this example elsewhere. The uncle who raised me lived well into his 80's. His diet was not good; he never smoked or drank, he was active in his yard and "fixing things" well into old age. He had a companion who took care of him.

My mentor lived to be well into his eighties. He smoked his first cigarette at the age of 9. He had his first drink of alcohol at his mother's knee when he was quite young and drank two or three cocktails every single afternoon, never on Sunday, "which is the Lord's Day, Mal". His diet was very good. His activity consisted of running up and down the stairs in his little house and walking his dog. He was a widower for over twenty years and had nobody but himself to take care of him. So, how do you figure?

When you're married a long time, it takes longer than the time Candida's been divorced to stop thinking of your ex-husband as family. Hole in her side? Yup, that's how it feels.

Great pictures, Ginny. I've been searching and posting pictures of ancient Greek temples in Calabria in Italy and Sicily for The Story of Civilization discussion. These you posted are Roman ruins? Those guys sure got around, didn't they?

Mal

Someone asked about Candida's siblings, and I found this while looking for something else

p. 31
"Like myself, Julia was an only chld (that was another bond between us) and (unlike me)she had clearly got the upper hand at home."

I had recalled something about telling the truth to the Scrubs man, but the only thing I see now is on p.161 at the bottom and it has to do with the source of the "windfall."

Is 60 old? Hmmmm...no, not when you "consider the alternative" as the old joke goes! I guess it's all relative. When I was in my 20's, 45 was old. It's interesting how that mark of what becomes "old" changes as I age. hahaha. Obviously health/medical advances have made 60 a much more active age for people than it was when I was a child. People still ski and swim and run marathons and climb mountains. When I was a child I don't think that was possible for as many as it is now.

Another picture of the Theater at Sabratha

With whom would I like to travel? Anais, Mrs. Jerrold and Valeria. If I had to choose one, it would be Anais.

Mal

All I could find out about the name, Anaïs, is that it's pronounced Ana-ees; is from the Hebrew, and means grace or graceful.

Mal

...so many questions, so little time. I'm still left thinking of your questions regarding the reasons for Andrew's call...well, not so much about Andrew himself, but their conversation regarding Ellen. I think it is this reference to Ellen that has caused C. to let down her defenses enough to give Andrew the contact phone number. They are still parents. She is still a mother...she is still concerned about Ellen's well-being. She doesn't really want to cut off completely from her family so that she can't be reached in an emergency. I don't know why Andrew would feel "strangely relieved" to have her number. Could be that he is concerned about Ellen and if she's having a problem, he might just be relieved that C. will share the burden, whatever. Do you remember what was said earlier about Ellen and her fear of the telephone? Does Ellen have problems that both parents are concerned about? Something has happened to send Ellen away from her mother. Andrew apparently had never much to do with Ellen because she failed to pay him homage to...but that doesn't mean she wasn't closer to her mother...or does it? Is she alienated from both of them? What message has she sent home that causes Andrew's concern? No wonder C. feels pangs and relents a bit from her stoney response to his call.

But still she feels he really called to pry. Is he afraid she is spending too much money on a spree? Maybe he suspects she has come into money from her father. Whatever the reason for his call, it does bring forth memories and familiar feelings - from the past...

The dark-skinned, French-speaking man in the market:

"Madame, pensez-vous souvent au passé?"
"Madam, do you often think of the past?"

"Oui, de temps en temps."
"Yes, from time to time."

Whatever she thinks about the past, the phone call from Andrew OR the upcoming trip...leads her to drop the engagement ring into the pool. "So my ring has drowned in the shallow deep." Yet another drowning...

ps...don't want to forget to thank you for the wonderful photos. Doesn't it make you want to GO? I don't have to hear the Sibyl, but just to see these ruins and imagine... Pat, didn't you actually take a trip to Greece after we read the Odyssey many years ago?

Candida says on Page 151 that she occasionally calls Ellen, who fears and dislikes the telephone. Andrew calls (159) and says Ellen hasn't replied to his last phone message. Candida is not surprised, "as he must know how she hesitates to use the telephone", and has never shown much interest in Ellen. Of course, he was prying!

The "something that must have happened" to send Ellen away from her parents is that she wanted to be independent and on her own, and good for her!

I don't think it was Andrew's call that prompted Candida to drop her ring in the pool. She was now independent and about to start off on her own on a trip for the first time in her life. It was time to get rid of the ring. She'd graduated from marriage.

I find it hard to understand consternation here about Candida's leaving her grownup kids. They didn't need her any more, and neither did she need them in the way it was when they were children and needed her mothering.

When my children became adults, I didn't find it necessary to be more than a peripheral part of their lives. They had their lives; I had mine. If something bad happened to any one of them, I'd hear about it, just as they'd hear the same about me.

I rent an apartment addition in my working daughter's house, which is separated by her adjoining studio and is two doors away from that house. We love each other very much, but she lives her life, and I live mine. We see each other half hour to an hour a day after dinner if we feel like it and can. If we don't or can't, neither of us thinks it's the end of the world; we understand, maybe send each other an email, and don't mind or fuss.

I see nothing wrong when a woman wants to go off and live her own life, or when her children want to do the same.

Mal

I, too, see nothing wrong (and, in fact, think it healthy) that parents lead lives separate from their independent adult children. [I have observed in friends and family that some problems seem to arise when parents are, to my mind, overly involved in the lives and problems of adult children.] I think the part that bothered me a bit was that I detected an "estrangement" which I define differently from "independence."

There was an estrangement between my kids and me for four or five years after the end of my marriage, Jane. As time passed, the kids grew older, saw things differently, and things worked themselves out. Maybe the same will be true for Candida.

Mal

OK, Ginny. What book did you write a review on for Amazon. Curious minds want to know.

Is there any way we can tell what she's told the guy from Wormwood Scrubs which is not true? Again, it’s a sin of omission. He guesses that she’s won the lottery because she’s taking a trip; she’s mum about the source of her funds. (161)

My sources say Anaïs is from Catalan or Provençal for Ana or Anne (grace, favored), and Sally is from the Hebrew for graceful.

Oddly enough, I think I’d most like to travel with CW. I don’t think she’d overwhelm me.

Mme, the name Anaïs is a derivative. In the Hebrew it is a derivative of Hannah, "from Hanani: [God] has graced me [with a child"]. In the French Provençal or Catalan, it is a derivative of Anna, Ana. Isn't Sally a derivative of Sarah? The meaning for Sarah is "princess" on the site I found.

Mal

I’ve been looking to see if I can recognize Ginny’s reference to Candida calling herself Sibyl. I think I’ve spied it…

I’ve played with the numbers CW chose for the lottery—She said they were random. She also says she loves numbers, sees them as… what, symbols?

I’ve copied all the glosses out and read them alone—to see if they tell their own story—

The solitaire game has been my obsession---

And I also read this book through with no thought, just reading words for a plot and characters.

Thinking and pondering, looking for more than meets the eye has added so much pleasure to the Seven Sisters’ experience. I can read all the posts and see what the other folks here are pondering. If I can “see” their point, I notice, I pause and consider. If not, I scan and go on. But their ponderings are theirs and always someone else does agree and together they spark my attention or not. But that’s the glory of this site--- We all give and take as we chose, until or unless we interfere with another’s giving and taking.

My time spent here with Seven Sisters, the Aeneid and you all have been an enriching, life affirming, intellectual adult experience for me.

May I respectfully request that if the Aeneid references and discussion are not to your taste, or any other “tangent” that another spins, please skim over those messages--- take or leave what you will, and leave those who do enjoy them to their pleasures.

If you have ideas or threads to offer for consideration there is plenty of room for those too.

Now, I’ll go shower off all the bubbles from my soap box!! LOL

Lou

I don't understand this. Viogert spoke her mind, and that's good, not bad. I've read Book Six and other parts of the Aeneid trying to relate it to this book, as well as researching for more information on Virginia Woolf and James Joyce than I had, Cecil Day Lewis, too. When I said the airport gate was only the one there would be for Candida I was serious. She has to go through it, doesn't she, before she enters Aeneas's underworld?

I don't see anyone here beating up on anyone else's opinions, frankly, and really don't know what's going on.

That's okay. There's a snow and ice storm headed our way tonight and tomorrow. If we're lucky we'll only be without power five days instead of seven. We seldom have a storm here without the power going off.

So long.

Mal

Lou! I am so glad to see you back! Welcome home, hasn't everybody done a super job here today, so many things to think about and discuss, thank you for your wonderful thoughts, your

My time spent here with Seven Sisters, the Aeneid and you all have been an enriching, life affirming, intellectual adult experience for me

is very heartening, thank you, that's one of the many reasons we are doing the Books in the first place, why we started it, and what we hope to attain.

I've put that with Marvelle's above in our Great Quotes area, and you may see it again.

More in the morning I'm sorry to have been a bit distracted the last few days, we had a farm crisis but it appears everything is going to work out well, see you all in the morning.

Has anybody, by the way, heard from Betty? I've written her a couple of times and have not heard back and am concerned? I miss her here in our Books.

Pedln, how's the Tax School going? I think you are to be commended for helping others, I wish you lived closer to me! hahahaha

Norway Carolyn, what do you think today? I've been trying to figure out how your time differs from us, I know (or think ) Viogert, I think, is 6 hours ahead, what of Norway??

Anybody got any new insights on the questions in the heading which are only suggested topics or on anything anybody else has said today, LOADS of great thoughts, I thought.

Back tomorrow,

ginny

Ginny - I too have been worried about Betty. I sent her an email with Christmas/ New Year Greetings with no reply. I know she retired with health problems so I do hope she is not ill and family have not realised she would be missed here. This discussion would have been up her alley and I am sure she said she was going to join in. Is there any way we can find out if she is OK?

Carolyn

NY Times reviewer Brooke Allen says “She has began a new life. It is by her own choice, a remarkably solitary one…”

Her symbol for her solitude is solitaire…

The electronic version won’t let you check alternatives… “What might have been”… If she had made other decisions what would her life have been? She actually was very solitary much of her time in Suffolk, napping, walking and sleeping alone.

What were her choices? The real vs imitation: Was she so passive, as Marvelle says, that she had no real alternatives, choices because she allowed others to make her choices? Life happened to her.

“When you play electronically, there is nothing on the table at all except what you see.” When you are detached from your life and let it happen to you “there is nothing there except what you see”….

When you play with real cards—when you are not detached or passive you are allowed to check alternatives, make choices.

“But the point is this. In the electronic version, those concealed cards do not exist as cards or even as numbers… They are merely notional. It is my belief that they have not yet decided what they are to be.”

She has no idea what her alternatives are, what possibilities are open to her---

At school when she played with cards she could check her alternative, her options… in her passive, detached life she didn’t bother… now she has no idea how to look for alternatives…

“There is more future freedon in the electronic version”… even though she has chosen to live a solitary life, she has more “future freedom”—She can in the future make plans--- When she knows how to buy a lottery card, a Walkman, etc---

“You can never rethink a past decision.” You can never undo or relive, change the past….

“Playing for high stakes is more dangerous and more sinful than playing alone, but playing alone is not good for the soul.”

Could the high stakes play refer to being involved with other people? Risking yourself through relationships? With family, friends, whoever??? But solitude is not “good for the soul”--- Living life “second-hand and removed” (Marvelle) through the distorted window…

“The card cannot be put back in the pack. The hidden is revealed. And yet it need not have been, surely? Sometimes I think that it could have all been quite different. I find it hard to believe that this is the bleak set pattern that I must live and die within.” Page 48.

On page 52… “Unpacking of her household gods” Did you notice that??? I assumed it said “goods”.. being a good army wife, we had household goods… not so, it’s gods. “As a nun enters a convent in search of her god, so I entered my solitude. I felt fear, and I felt hope.” Page 54

“Was this lofty solitude foreordained to be my destiny? A destiny stacked, laid, unalterably dealt?” p 71

SO, for me I have figured out the solitaire deal!!! Now, I can relax and enjoy the rest of the book!!!

Lou

Well put, Lou. It is "glorious" isn't it? I don't know another web site where books are discussed in depth in such a congenial atmosphere. And what you say is true...if you don't agree with, or find interesting information included in a given post, you are always free to skim right through it. I must say in return...having you join us has been one of the pleasant surprises of this discussion. Hope to see you in another one soon. How about Life Of Pi...the February Book Club online discussion. Now there's a fascinating book...and a lot to talk about too. Haven't read anything like it in a long time.

Sue, I agree...having met you. CW would not overwhelm YOU! No one would! hahahaha... I liked the way she mentioned that Julia probably thought she, Candida would add "class" to the company. I don't think I've ever thought of myself in this way, have you? Ever? I remember pausing at that.

I'm off to read the next section so I'll be ready for you sharp-eyed readers...it's the eve of the trip...is C worried she's forgetting to pack something the way I always am before a trip. Or does she not want to pack much excess from her past? Never did replace the worn swim suit, did she?

Edit: Lou, we were posting together. About the household gods...yes I did notice. She was setting up the items that would bring good fortune to her home. Well, actually, she was just putting out some of the things she brought from home...nothing seemed to be worthy of consideration as a household god, did it? The clock? the silver ladle? The milk jug? Now she's leaving them all behind, isn't she? You don't suppose she's packed any of them, do you? The metal bird? In case she doesn't return, she'd need something for her new home...

Joan, thank you so much for your kind words. It has been a dream of mine for years to find a "home" to discuss books. And for the life of me, I can't remember how I "stumbled" onto seniornet. Must have been my guardian angel looking after me!!! Life of Pi... I've seen it in the book stores and read reviews... Really didn't seem to be my cuppa... but I'll look again.

I'm ready for the airport!! Can't wait for this trip! Aeneid folks seem to take their gods with them... Can't wait for you all to tell me what this next section means!!

Lou

Lou, I'm so awed by your talent for thinking things out and I'm glad you've chosen to be here with us in Books. Thank you.

From Part 1 my impression of the woman Candida: she isn't perfect, she vaguely wants to change but she isn't sure how to do so. I don't believe the amazing shower of gold will make a lasting change in her for she'll still be Candida. She's confused and in turmoil.

For instance, she blames Andrew for the marital breakup with his affair, then a few pages later she admits that she'd distanced herself emotionally throughout her marriage and had earlier started sleeping apart. She admits to having tempermental scenes with garbage men and to being cool always in her relationships.

First she blames others, then a few pages later she self-blames. Maybe at first we think, well she's reeling from the divorce and that's why her emotions are turned up to a high volume but .... her childhood episodes of wrapping her head in a towel and weeping with satisfaction shows that these passive-agressive acts of destruction are a lifetime habit. The fountain episode is just a continuation of the towel episodes and shows that the Andrew Interlude did not fundamentally change her personality or actions.

There is to me one significant difference between Candida-then and Candida-now. She is now embarrassed by her extreme behavior and wants to change.

I have at home a book on Jungian dream symbols but the web version of that book has a messy page; a distraction when looking for a specific symbol so I'm including just two symbols, rather than the complete dictionary:

Drowning

Water

Here is a good dictionary but not as complete in the interpretations of symbols.

Dictionary of Dream Symbols

Tisi, hope things are better? I love the photos like the Medusa Stone and all the incredible ruins. I'm ready to go -- Ancient Carthage/Tunisia here we come! -- as soon as one of us wins the lottery. But we pay the taxes first, okay?

Marvelle

Thanks Lou, for dealing the cards so well. What you say about the game as it concerns Candida makes perfect sense.

I think Candida is not so upset about her divorcefrom Andrew, as she is by her sudden change in status quo. No more lovely Georgian house which really wasn't theirs, but she thought she would live there the rest of her life. No more paid help to take care of all the details of upkeep. No more niche or place in the world. As for giving Andrew her phone number, it would be logical for her to give it to someone in case of emergency. The question is, if he hadn't called, would she have called and given her number to him or one of the children?

60 old? Not in this century, or the past one for that matter. As long as you can have goals and dreams you can avoid wearng that tag. I remember how excited my uncle and two aunts were when they called to tell me that had put down ernest money for retirement condos. They were in their 80's and 90's and the building would not be completed for 18 months. Actually, I don't think of people I know as old. It's just those other folks. BTW, Ginny, when is your magic day that's coming up soon. Be sure to let us know so we can celebrate and wear purple and red.

Pedin, LOL at Your purple and red combination.

Hi Ginny welcome to the purple and red Club.~~

Questions:

If Candida thought card playing was wicked, what do you suppose she thought divorce was?

Did Margaret Drabble make this character, Candida Wilton, seem downtrodden in this book?

Facts:

Women in bad marriages, either still in them or divorced, in therapy groups which I have witnessed or in which I have participated have said:

1. They distanced themselves from their husbands in various ways to protect themselves from being made more unhappy than they already were.

2. One important way they distanced themselves was to leave the marital bed.
When asked by psychologists or psychiatrists why they hadn't left their husbands, they said:

1. They didn't believe in divorce because of their religion.

2. They didn't believe in divorce because of the way they had been brought up.

3. They had never worked outside the home; had no job skills or training, and were very worried about how they'd support themselves, or themselves and any underage children they had, if they left their husbands.

When asked why they had not been more assertive and why they had not tried harder not to be downtrodden in their marriages, they said:

1. They could not face confrontation because they were afraid of humiliation or some sort of punishment by their husbands.

When asked if they had been humiiated or punished by their husbands in the past, they said:

Yes.

Were these women confused in the way Candida Wilton was in this book?

Yes.

Did those going through menopause think that, combined with their marital problems, had anything to do with physical discomfort, sleeplessness, impatience and irritability they claimed to have?

Yes.

When asked what their aims were in the therapy sessions, they said:

1. To feel better. Many said they didn't know how, and that's why they were there.

I know it's late when I read Ann's post as "60 old?...Not as long as you have goats and dreams."

Whoa there. Goats? Ann raises goats? what fun. I read again, 'oh, GOALS.' Well, goals are good too.

Sixty isn't anywhere near old unless a person allows it to be. I like Ginny's goal of doing 60 new things before turning age 60 which makes turning 60 a celebration of living. Ginny, what were some of the new things?

Candida's attitude about age is more than defeatist ... it's as if she's anxious to trade her life for something else? I wonder if this have to do with the Gate of Ivory.

Travelling companions? I think Valeria (if she's included in the group) and Ida Jerrold.

Marvelle

Cynthia Barclay would have to be my choice to travel with, if I could only take one of the gals! She could figure anything out, I’m sure. And always seems to land on her feet!!

Candida.. Well, I don’t think she’s pathetic anymore. She seemed to handle Andrew’s call pretty well. And I say, good for her! It almost seems to me like she’s coming out of a cocoon she had tightly wrapped around herself. She’s emerging from her solitude, even her colors are changing. My mental image of her new tie-died shirt makes me want to send her shopping with Anais!! She is taking lots of mental baggage with her on this trip… but she’s able to write “I am happy” and that’s coming a long way, I think.

Pedlin, I saw a shop called the Southern Lady the other day... It had a whole section devoted to purple and red!! From book marks to great t-shirts with purple over blouses!!! My red hat needs brushing off... haven't worn it in a while!!

Lou

Why do I think survival is Candida's primary goal right now? Going on this journey with her friends is a major step.

People say you are only as old as you make yourself, but in some ways I have to disagree. At age sixty, the arthritis I had been able to ignore before had become a painful reality. It is much more than that now. Some people begin to have vision or hearing problems at sixty. The body can argue with you about aging, I find, whether you have goals or you don't.

My goal at sixty was to work for and get a Ph.D. At age sixty-one, I sold my home and moved 500 miles to pursue this goal. My body and fate made me change my mind. Since I'd already written one book; I wrote a few more and did several other things, fighting the argument my aging body was giving me. I still do. Anyone who says sixty is not the beginning of old age is not facing reality. One adjusts to an aging body and does what she can do.

The information I posted last night in reference to this book and Candida is based on 24 years of doing volunteer counseling with alcohol and other drug addicted women (and a few men) of all ages and walks of life. Most of them have been or were married; many were divorced, one woman after 37 years of marriage. I still do volunteer counseling, but since I am unable to get out, it is done on the phone and by email. Some of the people with whom I work are in SeniorNet.

I had the weirdest idea last night before I went to sleep. What if Sally is Candida's Golden Bough?

Mal

Valeria? Gee, I have forgotten who she is already! Need to go back and see before we leave in the morning...Valeria?

Many good points this morning. Pedln, our Candida does seem more concerned about being out of her house and home and all that is familiar, rather than about alienation with people, with her family, doesn't she? How did she put it when Andrew called...something about being not being able to be concerned with redefining relationships while she is in the process of finding out who she is...can't be concerned about "them" right now.

Marvelle, there was something in one of the dream links...or was it water - that caught my eye..." Since water may represent the feminine, your dream may be asking you to do something about a mother-attachment that has been stunting your development as an individual in your own right"...now that's interesting to me...and it goes back to the premise that whatever personality weakness or inability to feel a sense of self - had its roots long before the marriage to Andrew. This is a life-long problem that cannot be solved by examining what went wrong in the marriage, can it? I'm wondering how far she will come to understanding this.

Need to run this morning...really came in to say that while thinking about Candida's prejudices last night...there is ONE groupa I find her really biased against...and it's not race nor class - but FAT PEOPLE. Have you noticed all of her impatient references to "fat" people?

ps. Mal, we were posting together. Sally, the Golden Bough? Now that's something to consider...

The link below was posted by Robby Iadeluca in The Story of Civilization discussion.

HISTORY OF ANCIENT CARTHAGE

Joan, Valeria is the seventh sister, the unknown guide. We don't meet her 'in person' until Part 2 which is why I wondered if I could choose her but ... I decided on Valeria as well as Ida Jerrold.

There are currently 3 links to Carthage/aka Tunisia with photos and maps in the "Interesting Links." There's the link on "Ancient Carthage" which gives an overview of life in Carthage, then "History of Ancient Carthage" with maps and photos, and also "Modern Tunisia" which is a tourist's guide, which is useful since we're planning a trip. However, more info is always appreciated.

Lou,so you see more likable qualities now in Candida? I agree but there's that badmouthing of Sally to the other 'sisters' which doesn't speak well for Candida's character. She's more peaceful now I think.

Marvelle

Marvelle -- Valeria was able to make character judgements of her passengers through experience - (& her rear mirror). For Sally she thought: "troublemaker". It sounds uncharitable, but it was pretty accurate. I thought Candia invited Sally because it had (mostly) been her idea, she was a familiar person & it would be embarrassed trying to explain her exclusion if the subject was raised later.

This is is quoted in the front of Drabble's book "The Gates of Ivory" (Viking 1991)

"Dreams said Penelope to the stranger, may puzzle and mislead. They do not always fortell the truth. They come to us through two gates; one of them is horn, the other is of ivory. The dreams that come to us through the traitor ivory deceive us with false images of what will never come to pass: but those that appear to us through the polished horn speak plainly of what could be and what will be"

Homer, The Odyssey, Book XIX,560-65

To paraphrase what Candida said, "I am redundant here."

[And I am always reminded of that fact.]

; )

Mal

I agree, Marvelle, she's not where she needs to be. There are lots of "issues" here to be resolved. I wonder if her unkind words about Sally will come home to roost? But I feel encouraged about her. She is at least up and doing, not playing solitaire!! And she even knows Jenny's name!!

Have we talked about the English teacher she felt the attraction for? p138. Wonder what dreams they wove about each other???

When I read the references to the symbolism, I thought again that it takes a lot of courage to be a mother. Wonder if I'd ever found that courage if I had known all the ways I could harm my children unknowingly???

Lou

I'm still thinking of the new Candida. I looked over the last 4 pages of Part 1 to refresh my memory. In it Candida writes:

QUOTE "I have just reread the whole of this diary. I am not proud of it. What a mean, self righteous, self-pitying voice is mine. Shall I learn to speak in other tones and other tongues when I leave these shores? Do I still have it in me to find some happiness? Health, wealth, and the pursuit of happiness. The new declaration of our human rights.

"Let me write this down. I am happy now. I am full of happy anticipation." (160-1) END QUOTE

She feels embarrassed for her self pity and self righteousness which would indicate she's passing through her rage and shock but... has she changed significantly or is it just that the stress has lessened from the shower of gold and it's easier to be happy? She writes that she has health and wealth so now she can pursue happiness and is pinning her hopes for happiness on the trip.

The positive thing to me is that she understands the power of thoughts for she says "Let me write this down. I am happy now."

I take this to mean not necessarily that she actually is happy but she's trying to convince herself to be happy. This is an affirmation technique that strengthens a feeling -- in this case happiness -- inside the speaker. Candida had previously used the technique in her Diary with rage and self-pity.

What bookends her "I am happy now" are two opposites. First, Candida writes of Andrew that she no longer knows how to think of him, "He is like a great blank in my memory. He is like a hole cut in my side." (160)

The other bookend to "Let me write this down. I am happy now." is when Candida drops her ring into the Health Club pool and says "I have divorced myself from Andrew and married the blue water." (162)

I think the ending of Part 1 is ambiguous but that Candida is expressing hope for happiness.

Lou, we were posting at the same time. Yes, not where she needs to be yet. I look forward to hearing what people make of Part 2 which starts the 18th!

Marvelle

When MacBeth says to a physician:

"Cure her of that.
Canst thou not minister to a
mind diseased,
Pluck from the memory a
rooted sorrow,
Raze out the written troubles
of the brain,
And with some sweet
oblivious antidote
Cleanse the stuffed bosom
of that perilous stuff
Which weighs upon the heart?"

The physician replies:

"Therein the patient
Must minister to himself."

Lou, I appreciate the thoughtfulness in your explorations of Candida, connecting the dots of the text and from that reaching some thoughts about Candida.

I also won't know what I think of Candida or the novel or Drabble for a long while yet. There are things about Candida I dislike, some things I like, some things call for my sympathy, others I tsk at... etc etc....I'm not willing to defend Candida to the death or to attack without mercy -- both are blinkered views IMO which limit the enjoyment and understanding of the novel. I like this game of reading the text and exploring and discussing.

Marvelle

Mal: I don't recall that it's health/medical problems that Candida has, but an attitude that I sense here that makes Candida think 60 is old.

I'm sure a number of us have serious health/medical situations.

But, Candida doesn't appear to have any of these "inconveniences" and yet her attitude has been so ...what...dour...pessimistic, etc. She has continually waited for something or someone to make her happy. I'm one of those people who believes only Candida can make Candida happy. I think she's on a path to maybe doing that. I hope this trip will help her with what I see as a need for an "attitude adjustment."

Hmmm...who would I choose for a traveling companion...hmmm...need to think on that for a bit.

Jane, Candida doesn't seem to have any physical problems. She was depressed when she hit 60; maybe that accounts for her attitude.

I felt older in my head when I was 30 than I did at 60. All I could see ahead of me was more dirty diapers and trying to keep up with 3 kids instead of 2 when I only had 2 hands and could not run. I never expected that I'd have a girl, so Dorian was the frosting on the cake when she came. I still had only 2 hands and couldn't run. Couldn't run at 60, either, but there weren't any diapers to wash.

I'd like to travel with Anaïs because she seems like the most fun.

Mal

Lou2, great dissection of the solitaire section! Sometimes it takes just sitting down and taking the trouble to tear it apart line by line. I also agree with you about traveling with Cynthia. She’d be a hoot.

Mal, I enjoyed your posting on women in bad marriages. I could see a lot of CW in that.

Marvelle: "Let me write this down. I am happy now." But what kind of happiness is it really? An anticipatory happiness of being somewhere other than where she is now (physically and mentally). Somehow that doesn’t seem to be a happiness that is satisfied in the moment.

A quote from Laura in the film The Hours: "I remember thinking, ‘This is the beginning of happiness.’ It never occurred to me: It wasn’t the beginning. It was happiness. It was the moment, right then."

When I had to accept the fact I had a disabling illness I grieved and felt old. (I am a baby here) Its taken time to accept my limitations and I have recently been speaking to another SN member who has been diagnosed with the same illness and she too is very upset she has no energy and so much pain. She is a really active person normally and loves to dance. Her lack of energy is spoiling her favorite past time. When I accepted my limitations and went for it on my good days and rested on my bad days I began to feel happy again. I feel like I have shed a few years now! My mind is still young! People who have no health problems don't understand how it does make you feel old on bad days! I identified with Mal's post about the menopause it does have a very severe effect on some women! I think Candida did have menopausal problems but because her husband was so self absorbed he was no support. My friends husband dragged her to the doctor and got her sorted out when she began acting peculiar in menopause! She was very grateful to him even though she was very unwilling in the first instance to seek help!

Carolyn

Kiwi Carolyn, you are an inspiration. I would never have known you had a disability from your posts. Thanks for sharing with us here. Thank the Lord you are learning how to handle what you can't change. Would that we all could do the same.

Lou

Carolyn Kiwi has Fibromyalgia. She is an inspiration to others in the Fibromyalgia folder and in other discussions, including all of us in the Writers Exchange WREX.

Mal

Another woman who is an inspiration is Sea Bubble, who writes for WREX under the pseudonym,
"E T". She had Polio in the Congo at the age of 2 and lives in Israel now. With braces on both legs and having spent a good part of her childhood in hospitals, as well as living a lot of her life in a wheelchair, she raised two children after she was married; helps run a library for immigrants and others, and helps disabled people online, while living through the the hell of war. Since she speaks many languages, I wrote to her today about the "Salammbo" reference in Part Two of The Seven Sisters.

It might have done Candida good to have known women like Carolyn Kiwi and Sea Bubble.

Mal

I agree with Lou, Carolyn, you are an inspiration, and it's that special grace that our SeniorNetters have here that comes from meeting and dealing with life's problems head on which makes our experience and associations here so rich...there can be no other book discussions anywhere like ours.

Carolyn, I am attempting to find Betty’s phone number, Pat W can find anybody anywhere, if I can, I’ll call her and tell her we’re thinking about her.

Well here we ARE! On the brink of our trip. There’s something to be said for not reading the book all at once. I must admit I’m excited and a bit apprehensive. Any trip has several iterations, there’s the pre trip planning, that’s one trip, there’s the actual trip, that’s another, you get several trips and you need to be very flexible in both or you suffer.

I think of all those going I’d pick Ida Jerrold as a travel companion. I realize she’s aged, but she’s a scholar and it makes a difference seeing things with somebody who knows the background and literature. She also is very sharp and has a sweet sense of humor, I loved that umbrella thing, you'll have to come back and the part about running away. But you know, you never know somebody till you travel with them, and the wrong companion can ruin a trip, let's see how she travels!

Malryn thank you for the wonderful photo of The Theater at Sufetula, I like the vantage point from which it’s taken, and have saved it, maybe I’ll make up a small html page of these for the Reader’s Guide at the end.

You are right, these are all Roman ruins in the north of Africa.

Here is a photo of the

Capitol of Sufetula, a Roman City in North Africa Today (Click to enlarge!)

The capitol is not a temple but is formed by three separate buildings, somewhat unusual, in Sufetula, a Roman town in Tunisia, around 1 AD.

Lou and the Solution to the Solitaire!!! and what a breathtakingly laid out thing it is, well done!! I had had a problem with understanding the computer solitaire thing, originally, won’t it be interesting if "solitaire" shows up again? You’ve tied it all together! Well done!

You said you read the glosses to see if they tell their own story? Did they?

Thank you for your exhilarating remarks, we’re extremely glad you chose us as a book club, and to have you in our company!

Joan P, I had forgotten about the fear and dislike of the telephone, makes you wonder about the whole family here.

Thank you for translating the French, the souvent threw me off for some reason! You are SOO right on the “fat people” she hates fat people, why?

I’ve been doing a bit of translation myself, my Loeb Aeneid came.

The Loebs have the left page in the original language and the right page in translation, line by line like Pearson just did above. That way if you get stuck in the language you can look across.

Here is the translation, the Fairclough in 1918, revised by Good in 1999, (who says there is no possibility of a perfect Virgil translation). I must say that Fairclough seems the best, to me, that is, this volume, of all the others I've read, it's more literal. As Good says, it’s heroic prose. I note that Professor Good was at Yale in 1999, that’s not that long ago, I think I’ll drop him a line on the mistletoe as Golden Bough, it’s driving me nuts.

--a tree, through whose branches flashed the contrasting glimmer of gold. As in winter’s cold, amid the woods, the mistletoe, sown of an alien tree, is wont to bloom with strange leafage, and with yellow fruit embrace the shapely stems: such was the vision of the leafy gold on the shadowy ilex, so rustled the foil in the gentle breeze.

The Latin is pretty straightforward:

quale solet silvis brumali frigore viscum
fronde virere nova, quod non sua seminat arbos,
et croceo fetu teretis circumdare truncos :
talis erat speices auri frondentis opaca
ilice, sic leni crepitabat brattea vento.

I dunno here, the quale and the talis seem to be a pretty clear comparison/ simile to me.

But the thing is that oftentimes they come to new understandings of things, and this may be something completely new and not a mistranslation of “species.” If I could ask Drabble anything at all, that is what I would ask her.

Mme, have sent you the link to the Amazon review, that’s the second one I’ve done but the first a publisher wrote me, very exciting.

Jane thank you for finding the only child reference. I would say that that would or should tend to make her more accustomed to solitude but I pause in saying that and need to think about it more.

Just like I need to think about the Carthage references more and Hamilcar and salt, if it appears in the last two sections of the book.

Thank you Malryn, for that neat Carthage link. And thank you for the information about parasite and saprophyte, I’m not sure that Sally is Candida’s Golden Bough, how would that work? It was her idea to go on the trip?

Lou!!!!!!!!!! NO no on the unpacking of her household gods!!!!!!!! NO I thought it was goods! Sooo she brought the lares and penates, huh? How interesting, how could I have missed that, many thanks!

ahahah Pedln and Ginger, I’ll try to find something purple for that day (I’ll never tell), I don’t believe I own anything purple.

Lou red HAT? Ginger is the Queen o the red hat, you guys fit together here!

Marvelle, thank you for the dream symbolism, very interesting in this context!

And thank you, Viogert for that fascinating quote from another Drabble book, looks like the gates of horn and ivory are something meaningful to her. I wonder what her own interpretation of the gate of ivory might mean in this story, many thanks.

Pedln, I agree, “The question is, if he hadn’t called, would she have called and given her number to him or one of the children?”

I think not. What do you all think?

Marvelle, I’ll tell you one thing of the 60 new things for this year I attempted? I am taking cello lessons, a long held desire and I love it.

Well here we are!!! I’m going off now and read the next part, I am as excited as if I were going myself, see you in the morning to hear all your thoughts, if there’s anything we haven’t covered in these first two sections, please feel free to bring it up before we pass thru the “gate” as Malryn said, of the airport! Hahahaha (assuming we can get THRU the metal detector!)

Tisi

Ginny, I'm so happy you're continuing with the cello. A dear friend of mine, Helen Blachly, was a very fine cellist. Helen taught at the Peabody Institute for a number of years. I met her in Florida where three quarters of the second floor of her house was a music room overlooking Matanzas Bay. I was privileged to play chamber music with Helen, her violinist husband, Charles, and other musicians many times there. Check out the Piano Trio in G Minor, Opus 17 by Clara Schumann. There's a lovely cello line throughout it.

Mal

Joan, I wonder if CW's bias against "fat people" is because of Sally. CW doesn't seem to like Sally very much, but yet is afraid to cut any ties to her. Sally is fat. Therefore other fat people must be like Sally. It's sad, but that kind of thinking affects many.

I agree with Sue and Jane about Candida's happiness; she isn't happy in the moment is she? And the anticipation of future happiness fades when suddenly the future becomes the moment. Still she's trying if only half-heartedly.

Ginny, that translation sounds perfect. The Golden Bough is being compared to mistletoe that shines among branches; not that it is mistletoe.

Candida, despite what I feel were her original intentions, is now desperately searching for something outside and apart from herself to be the sacrificial Golden Bough -- umbrella, mistletoe/tree, "fat" Sally, "poor" Julia, money, Andrew, family, ring -- anything to distract her from herself. I think we need to consider the purpose of the Golden Bough

For Virgil's Aeneas and Dante the trip to the Underworld was for the purpose of being reborn. It was a symbolic 'place' they went during a dark period of their lives when they were horribly disturbed emotionally, where they faced themselves and acknowledged their faults (Dante's love of strife and Aeneas' desertion), and emerged as different persons who see a purpose and meaning to their lives. I believe that the Golden Bough isn't something or someone outside Candida but within Candida.

This leads me to think of her writing as being the vehicle for the Underworld and the earning and sacrifice of the Golden Bough. There are people, such as Dante, who write to know themselves and be reborn. But you can't be timid or afraid to face the truth.

Candida writes her manifesto on the first page of her diary (p3 of the novel):

"Nothing much happens to me now, nor ever will again. But that should not prevent me from trying to write about it. I cannot help but feel that there is something important about this nothingness. It should represent a lack of hope, and yet I think that, somewhere, hope may yet be with me. This nothiness is significant. If I immerse myself in it, perhaps it will turn itself into something else. Into something terrible, into something transformed. I cast myself upon its waste of waters. It is not for myself alone that I do this. I hope I may discover some more general purpose as I write. I will have faith that something or someone is waiting for me on the far shore." Emphasis mine.

I am trying to understand the manifesto. The following intrepretation is tentative and I hope together we can identify Candida's goal:

Perhaps in nothingness Candida can contemplate and write to discover herself. Maybe the someone or something on the far shore is the "new improved Candida." Yet I don't know if this is an entirely possible goal for anyone; the Gate of Ivory.

The difficulty in writing, in anyone's writing, is in having a clear vision and being honest. Sometimes the truth is so painful or so dull to Candida that she lies. She also protects herself by projecting blame onto others, and she casts about for a substitute golden bough which defeats the purpose of her self-exploration, if that's what she is doing.

Marvelle

Ann, I wonder if Candida's name-calling is really her own prejudice? Perhaps she uses "fat" because it's a socially tolerated prejudice and she feels she can be derogatory and get away with it? (It isn't tolerated by me.) And it really has nothing to do with someone being fat? This an example of her passive-aggressive tendencies which I hope Candida will discard by novel's end.

Marvelle

(I'm posting now, while I have the chance, before attending to some commitments for the day.)

"See Naples and die."

-- from The Italian Journey, 1786-1788

by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Candida writes: "...I do want to go to Naples. I'd like to visit the Phlegrean Fields before I die." (83) This is an allusion to Goethe's famous travel book The Italian Journey for which Part 2 of The Seven Sisters is named.

Goethe declared he'd been reborn from his journey, and his writing influenced many Europeans to make pilgrimages to Italy.

For information on Goethe Click Here

Scroll down to the section 'Sojourn in Italy' which describes the transforming effect of Goethe's trip.

Here's a brief extract from The Italian Journey

I hope to join the discussion later today if at all possible. We all deserve this trip to Tunisia and Italy alongside our other travel companions!

Marvelle

Candida is displaying prejudice which is a very acceptable prejudice in today's society. Fat people are really looked down upon by a great many people. Its a very sad thing.

I think Mal deserves a pat on the back too. She has difficulty in moving about- she hardly ever gets the chance to go out because of her disability and that must be really hard. At least I can get in the car and go out any time I want. Instead of feeling sorry for herself Mal started her writing and her internet magazines. I may be in pain but I can get about! I think Mal and Bubble are really amazing. SN has been instrumental I think in helping me to cope. I never feel isolated or alone.

I actually feel empathy for Sally. I think the way she looks at the world is directly related to her weight, she knows how people feel about her size. People who struggle with a weight problem are often very unhappy. They may become defensive or even over jolly - the life of the party to cover their real feelings of shame and self loathing. It is our society that has said to be fat is to be a lesser person. Look around and see how many people you know who are obsessed with their body image. It is every second person. When I am with a group of women it is not long before the conversation turns to diets or how much weight so and so has gained or lost. I get annoyed with Candida when she goes on about "fat Sally".

Carolyn

And "poor" Julia. I looked over Part 1 and was surprised the times Candida referred to Julia like that -- which started after the windfall of money. Resentment against Julia that began in school -- Julia's early independence, sophistication, successful career etc etc. Now it's "poor" Julia.

Marvelle

Dashing thru the snow here, trying to keep ahead of you all hahahaah a futile task! I fell asleep in front of the fire over the voyagers (who now refer to themselves, or the ...."narrator" does....as "pilgrims," did you catch that? And just NOW finished up the last two pages, well well well, lots to chew over here. haahahahah

Back anon! LOADS of good stuff for you today, let's start with this:

For Your Consideration:

Week III

Jan 18 - 24 Part 2 The Italian Journey

Week I Questions Still On Offer:

12. How many references are there mentioned in this book to the word Seven?

Seven Sisters Constellation
District of London called Seven Sisters(Viogert)
"Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings? And not one of the is forgotten before God." Epigraph
Dedication: "For Ann, Kay, Pat, Per, Viv and Al" That's six names - Seven Sisters. Is "Maggie" the seventh? (Joan P)
The name Candida has 7 letters (Mme)
"We'll be seven, anyway, if you include the driver." (page 157)

Week III:

1. What do you make of the abrupt change of narrator in The Italian Journey?

Who is this narrator who knows the inmost thoughts of each of the travelers?

What effect does this abrupt change have on the story?

Does it change in any way your former conceptions of Candida?

2. In this section the travelers are referred to by the book's title for the first time (or is it?) as the Seven Sisters.(Page 217) Following that (page 237) the constellation is mentioned. Are these connected in any way? If so, what might be a connection?

"Submit, whispers the wizened Sibyl, who lost her frenzy a thousand years ago. Be still, whispers the dry and witless Sibyl from her wicker basket. Be still. Submit. You can climb no higher. This is the last height. Submit."

But it is not the last height. And she cannot submit.

Who is that waiting on the far shore? Is it her lover or her God? (Pages 246-247)

What does the Sibyl mean?

What does it mean that Candida refuses to “submit?” Submit to what?

What do the italicized words mean? Is this a gloss? Is it a quote?

4. Ellen seems pleased to hear from her mother.

"Why was Candida afraid of her own daughter? Was she afraid of rejection? Surely she had already been rejected and therefore had nothing more to fear. What was this terror? What did it mean?" (Page 245)

How would you answer her? Is it possible the entire estrangement has been in Candida’s wounded mind all along?

5. “It is an ancient, natural phenomenon known as bradisismo, or , in English, 'bradyseism.' It is related to volcanic activity." (Page 239)

What is it?

For Your Consideration: ~ Week I & II

First: Bubble wrote to me and said, "I thought the Seven Sisters were islands." Really? I did a search and found out this:

"The first map in which the Seychelles can be identified appeared in 1544, probably drawn by the Portuguese cartographer Albert Cantino, on which the islands are referred to as the Seven Sisters. Two islands still keep this name -- Petite Soeur and Grande Soeur."

Secondly, I have not always been this disabled, Carolyn. I was always very active until there were injuries for me a couple of years ago. I've held jobs from stocking shelves and washing the floor in a health food market to running a used book bookstore, my favorite job, and many more. I've never lacked for things to do.

I want to go on to say that Carolyn Norway's definition of Solitaire in Post 326 is a very good one which we haven't talked about much.

I mentioned before that Margaret Drabble has used a fascinating technique in writing this book. She has changed the narrator's voice from first person to third. The narrator here is Candida, and I believe it is wise to be careful about what is said in this part of the book. She can be as unreliable, deliberately or not, as a third person narrator as she was as first.

"Candida herself, freed from her own whining monologue, is also aware that she has turned into another person, a multiple, polyphonic person, who need not pretend to be stupid, without fear of being called a pedant or a swat or a semi-educated fool or somebody trying to be too-clever-by-half." (172)

The underlining is mine. The word "polyphonic" tells me a lot of things, not just about Candida, but about the way this part is written.

Now, just who in Candida's past called her stupid, a pedant, a swat, a semi-educated fool, or "too-clever-by-half"? Andrew, of course. Was Andrew fat?

In the search for the Golden Bough, have you looked at Candida's divorce? Without it, she would not have moved to the underworld she found in London, nor would she have joined a Virgil reading group, or be on a plane with some of them to take a look at the underworld Virgil created for Aeneas.

Has my perception of Candida changed because of her more objective look at herself and her companions here? Well, of course. She's much stronger, able to stand away from herself; take a very good look at herself and others, and tell us what she sees, not always honestly or reliably.

Mal

Below is a link to a map showing the Seychelles Islands in relation to Africa.

Map: Seychelles

Mal, I like your closer look at Candida. However, I wonder if Andrew was the one who called her names, or if anyone in her life called Candida names. Where is Andrew's name-calling in the book? It's so easy to miss things, and I'd like to review the section/pages.

I have yet to find Candida telling it as she sees it. She's admitted in Part 1 that she lies and makes things up which we've mentioned in previous posts (along with the page numbers). Lies and imaginary scenes are far from 'seeing' but rather an avoidance technique; a way to avoid seeing yourself. Candida knows this and has told us many times that she is deliberately lying. It's our job as careful readers, I believe, to explore the text to try to find the clues to the truth.

Candida chose Goethe's Italian Journey as the title for her Part 2 in anticipation of happiness and being reborn. We don't know -- and who can tell if we'll know for sure by the end of Part 2? -- whether her anticipation became reality.

Marvelle

Just an educated guess, Marvelle. Drabble has made Andrew so typical of pompous men who want no resistance to their authority or independent thinking on the part of their wives that calling Candida those names is exactly what a man like him would do. To me, Andrew seems like the epitome of a put-down artist.

There are parts of the airplane scene that I find extremely funny. Picturing those women with all their hangups and the internal baggage they carry around at the start of this trip amuses me.

Mal

Oh, I see Mal, no one in the book ever called Candida such names. I was just about to start a search through the book so I appreciate you're telling me, and I won't concern myself with this any more.

Can hardly wait to see if our individually travel companion meets our expectations or disappoints. I chose Ida Jerrold but it was a close decision between her and Cynthia Barclay.

Marvelle

In Robert Graves' The White Goddess he writes on p98:

"The visit of Aeneas, mistletoe-bough in hand, to the Underworld to cross-examine his father Anchises must be read in this sense.(Exodus XXIV v.4 - Aeneas sacrificed a bull & let the blood gush into a trough, & the ghost of Anchises (who married the Love-Goddess Venus Eryncina, & been killed by lightening & was in fact, a sacred king of the usual Herculean type), drank the blood & obligingly prophesied about the glories of Rome. Of course the ghost did not really lap up the blood, but a lapping sound was heard in the dark; what happened was that the Sibyl, who conducted Aeneas below, drank the blood & it produced in her the desired prophetic ecstacy. That Sibyls acted so is known from the case of the Priestesss of Mother Earth at Aegera (Black Poplar, a tree sacred to heros) in Achea."

On the subject of the Golden Bough he says: p60

"The theory of Frazer's 'Golden Bough' is familiar enough to make this point unnecessary to elaborate at length, though Frazer does not clearly explain that the cutting of the mistletoe from the oak by the Druids typified the emasculation of the old king by his successor - the mistletoe being a prime phallic emblem. The king was eucharistically eaten after castration, as several legends of the Pelopean dynasty testify."

Marvelle, would you please help me out here?

For Virgil's Aeneas and Dante the trip to the Underworld was for the purpose of being reborn.

In book 5, I understood Aeneas’s father came to him in a dream and told him among other things to come to the Underworld he wanted to talk to Aeneas. I can see that Aeneas might be reborn because of his experience there, but I don’t understand that to be his purpose in going.

My other question is at the end of book 6 when Anchrises, did I get that right?, Aeneas’s father, takes them to the gates, he explains the 2 gates what they are and what they mean, and then he takes them to the ivory gate and sends them out… the gate of false dreams. Why ever would he do that???

Mal, thanks so much for this reminder:

I want to go on to say that Carolyn Norway's definition of Solitaire in Post 326 is a very good one which we haven't talked about much.

Good grief, how in the world did I miss that one? I thought I had printed all the solitaire posts and digested them all…. Here is the solitaire part in case you missed it too:

Seven: Now that we have the seven travelers named (including the driver) it's interesting to think about the version of solitaire which Candida plays. Seven cards are face up, the rest of the deck are face down,,, so that beneath the visible surface there are concealed numerous permutations and possibilities.

Not only did you identify another 7 but what interesting thoughts to play with… The first card has nothing under it… then second 1 card, on until the seventh which has 6 face down…. So some of the travelers are very shallow? Not much underneath? And some are deep?? And these fellow travelers are taking her, going with her out of her solitude…

Wish I could offer insights into the Golden Bough, Candida, and the other questions….. What did the Sibyl mean??? But I did find the answer to number 5 through a google search and it took me to a page about Pozzuoli and has this to say about bradyseism:

Bradyseism is described, in Phlegrea, as vertical oscillation of the land surface caused by distentions in an intermediate magma basin that exists about halfway between the earth's core magma and the surface crust. The basin is fed from the Vesuvian chamber. Expansion and contraction of the mass result from temperature changes

I agree with the narrator, “related to volcanic activity” but I can’t say I think I understand it!!!

Candida, the old Candida of Part 1, is the one who's been name-calling and badmouthing family and friends. Two of the people, "fat" Sally and "poor" Julia, are also pilgrims in The Italian Journey.

This is a fresh start, new beginnings we hope for Candida and we'll see if she can leave the former, passive-agressive Candida behind.

____________________________________________

Question 1 'What do you make of the abrupt change of narrator in The Italian Journey?'

-- 'Who is the narrator who knows the inmost thoughts of each of the travelers.' I've read to the end of the novel, and in fairness to other participants, I can't answer the who of this question except to offer possible candidates and there are other candidates that I won't even mention: Candida, someone or something on the far shore, a family member, god, one of the seven sisters, perhaps Sibyl/Ida Jerrold who's been published professionally, Valeria the guide, Drabble. The only POV which can know the inmost thoughts of characters would be that from god. One human being can't know another's inmost thoughts, and guessing is not knowing.

-- Does it [the new point of view] change your former conceptions of Candida? This new POV offers more control of characters and situations. It doesn't appear as one character's (Candida) reactions but many characters and therefore it makes Candida less unique and apart. Candida is not the only one with negative judgments and she's projected as being stronger and more independent.

-- 'What effect does this change have on the story?' I breathed a huge sigh of relief. We moved from water and drowning to fire and light. The new narration opens up a claustrophobic story and may be offering multiple voices. The "we" narration moves Candida from the position of being solitary to being part of a group. The symbolic equivalent to this change of viewpoint is a card game of soitaire (I) to playing bridge (we). The whole effect is one of inclusion much like "I" changing to "we" in this discussion.

_______________________________________

Lou, we were posting at the same time. I promise to reply more coherently later but will try some quick thoughts now. Do you think that Aeneas' father came to him in a dream or was it Aeneas' who dreamed of his father, an Aeneas hounded by the guilt of his habitial running away from Troy, fellow Trojans, his wife, Dido? And the purpose would be to find peace of mind; to change himself and lose the guilt.

In other words, isn't it Aeneas all along and not someone or something outside of himself? He is the initiator and not his dreamed father?

Many traditional cultures (ancient ones such as Rome, Native American etc) are highly sophisticated thinkers which is something we're losing touch with in industrialized states where machines have taken over much of our thought proceses. Traditional cultures are sophisticated in the use of symbols and other storytelling techniques. They understood long before Freud and Jung that dreams are the unconscious needs, thoughts, fears and desires of the dreamer. They knew about water and the unconscious. Certainly Virgil would know this as a traditional storyteller. Therefore, it isn't really the father but Aeneas?

Marvelle

Lou, I don't know if my reply was coherent. Just some thoughts about the meaning and purpose of the trip to the Underworld and these are only my own interpretation and aren't written in stone? You may have another interpretation to share? Loved the added information on bradyseism (sp?) and Carolyn Norway's thoughts on solitaire. I'd missed her post too which was my loss. Somewhere I have a link about the town of Puzzouli that shows the effects of bradyseism.

Marvelle

Ginny: The Othello reference is an unattributed quote: As they arrive in Naples, "Candida leans on the rail, sick with delight. If it were now to die, … 'twere now to be most happy." (222) More Shakespeare: Mrs. Jerrold sees CW "floating in the dank water like Ophelia." (176)

I feel like Marvelle with the 3rd person narrative: like I’d been let out of a closet.

Drabble makes the implied connection between the traveling seven sisters and the Pleiades by asking, "Where are the Pleaides [sic], the Seven Sisters? Are they to be dispersed?" (it is misspelled in my book, unless there is an alternate spelling that I don’t know about)

Do we really care what bradisismo is other than an esoteric explanation of why Pozzuoli is sinking?

I think the Sibyl is saying to give up and die—you've gone as far as you can go. But Candida's not ready.

Why was Candida afraid of her own daughter? Gee, I can just understand that feeling so well. When there’s some kind of estrangement, it’s just got to be uncomfortable to make that first call, that first breaking of the ice, whether it’s in her mind or not, especially if you are "cold," or reserved, and remember Ellen is, too, so even if there’s not a real estrangement, they are neither one very social animals.

So the birdless lake was full of birds. Speaking of birds—interesting that the 8th traveler on the Arethusa was Anna Palumbo, palombo being a sort of dove.

And yet another coincidence between 7 Sisters and Lovely Bones (besides Woolf with her pockets filled with stones): both feature references to a "chicken with its head cut off." How bizarre is that?

Gosh, that Othello reference (in 7 Sisters) was in answer to a question Lorrie asked about Lovely Bones. I think I need to take a couple of deep breaths.

Sorry Sue but I have to post this link. I'm a long-time traveller and I need to see it and think about it in order to understand it. It shows that humans cannot master nature. Lots of nice pics and a breathtaking one of an ancient city that rises up from the sea and returns to the sea due to bradyseismic activity. Also I'm studying, slowly, for a geography degree which is outside my field of English & I love volcanoes:

Puzzuoli & Bradyseism

I'm sooooo glad to get out of that water. Look forward to seeing Tunisa with everyone.

Marvelle

Ah, Sue, more deja vu. I wish I had time to go back and find the places these two books some of us are reading reference each other.

This new part almost seems like a different book. What a change in Candida. She is happy, happy, happy. All is well, except for Sally, the woman they like to dislike.

In the site below, Margaret Drabble reflects on life after 9/11 in a Dec, 2001 Guardian article. Be sure to note her comments about Frazer and the Golden Bough. The paragraph below jumped out.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/writersreflections/story/0,1367,624725,00.html

'In the spring of this year, I wrote a scene in a novel in which a woman sits on an aeroplane peacefully working at a tapestry. "She deploys a little pair of silver scissors with long golden crane-bird handles. The air hostess had looked at these scissors suspiciously, as though they might be construed as a dangerous weapon, but had decided to let them pass." ' (Seven Sisters, p. 174)

I've read Viogert's post #393 very carefully several times, especially the last part from a quote by Robert Graves, who is certainly more of a scholar and authority than I am:

"The theory of Frazer's 'Golden Bough' is familiar enough to make this point unnecessary to elaborate at length, though Frazer does not clearly explain that the cutting of the mistletoe from the oak by the Druids typified the emasculation of the old king by his successor - the mistletoe being a prime phallic emblem. The king was eucharistically eaten after castration, as several legends of the Pelopean dynasty testify."

The Golden Bough is a "phallic emblem" which has to do with unseating of one king and putting another in his place? What does this have to do with Candida Wilton, please? Is she going to the underworld with some phallic symbol Golden-Bough-I-don't-know-what-it-is-if-it-is, and emasculate some king (Andrew?) to put herself as king in his place? Sounds pretty far-fetched to me. As far as I can remember, the only time Candida mentioned the Golden Bough in relation to herself was in an editorial comment ("gloss") before she went to buy a lottery ticket to see if she could win some money.

Aeneas is going to the Underworld to cross examine his father, so Graves tells us. Who is Candida going to cross examine when she retraces Aeneas's Underworld route?

All of a sudden I feel as if I've been barking up the wrong tree about this Golden Bough thing.

Pozzuoli has risen and fallen through the centuries as a result of volcanic activity, and that's called bradyseism. This bradyseism will do Pozzuoli in, not global warming. I'll take Valeria's word for it:- That’s what’s happening to Pozzuoli.

Pedln, I had a pair of those embroidery scissors once. Guess I’ll have to leave my little fold-up yarn scissors I carry in my bag home, if and when I fly again.

Candida's not ready to give in to negative feelings she's had from time to time, and she told the sibyl that's where she's at.

Did Aeneas go to the Underworld to be reborn, as some claim here, or was he on a very different kind of mission? Guess I'll tune in later and see if I can find out.

Mal

Thanks Ann for the article. Our planet has gotten so small now, through communications and transportation, that an event in one country can affect the entire world.

The controversy about Frazer's theory of the golden bough is not what it is but what is done with it. Virgil's golden bough in the Aeneid -- written centuries before Frazer's theory -- is not the same as Frazer's interpretation. And Frazer's theory of the golden bough is seriously disputed.

Was it Mal who brought up Frazer's GB and his theory of it as a violent challenge? I can't remember but I do remember responding to it with the caution that historians take issue with this theory of Frazer's. Candida may accept Frazer's theory -- if she does -- but historians don't.

Historians, anthropologists, and Classicists say that the GB was historically an offering of an evergreen branch, including an olive branch and rather than a challenge to kill (sacrificing another) it was an offering to appease (self-sacrifice).

Robert Graves, author of a book popular with many women especially the New Age witches if that term still applies -- the White Goddess -- Graves is well educated and a writer but not a historian; he considered himself to be first and foremost a poet but he also wrote historical novels, hence his writer's interest in Frazer.

The importance of Frazer's work, published in 1890, is the expanse of his project and the highly literate way of telling stories. Most writers, like Graves, find it useful as a mine of ideas for their own work. I use Frazer's book in my writing as did Stephen King in his novel about the Corn King and Queen.

There are other concerns from experts besides Frazer's idea of the purpose of the golden bough. Frazer's book was published first in 1890 when anthropology was in its infancy and much less was known about ancient cultures. We would consider Frazer a racist today but have to remember he was writing over 100 years ago. He has said for example:

"A savage hardly conceives the distinction drawn by more advanced peoples between the natural and the supernatural."

Candida could easily be misled about the GB by Frazer; she's impressionable. She's, up until now, been willing to sacrifice anyone besides herself. I've also said many times before that she hasn't figured out what the GB is and I think that's because she doesn't want to know; she looks outside of herself for substitutes in people and things. I said back when Frazer's work was brought up that Frazer's idea of the GB is not the same as found in Virgil's Aeneid. Other people can continue with this but I choose not to because it's a old issue in this discussion that's being rehashed.

Frazer's idea of the GB is not the same as found in Virgil's Aeneid.

Marvelle

Marvelle, I've only read bits and pieces of Frazer's The Golden Bough, not enough to justify a "violent challenge". Viogert first mentioned this book, and I responded by saying just what I said above. I don't remember violently challenging anything here.

There are some of us who do not have the time to do an indepth study of Virgil's Aeneid right now. Why don't you post your interpretation of what he means by the Golden Bough again, or is what you've said above your interpretation? Thanks!

Mal

Pedln, thanks for the link! It was a great piece.

Mal, no one said anything about you making a violent challenge; that is how Frazer saw the purpose of the golden bough.

Since I love books and writing I make the time? I decide what's important to me and give that priority as much as I'm able. Don't we all make those choices? And what I love and make the time for doesn't have to be someone else's choice and vice versa?

In this book discussion I prefer to read and enjoy and explore The Seven Sisters and try to give that a priority. Back in a sec to look at one of Ginny's questions.

Marvelle

Question 5 What is bradyseism? (re page 241)

In #394, Lou posted a definition of bradyseism and, soon after, I posted a link that shows the effects of bradyseism. I think this passage in the book is a metaphor for fate.

IMO what is being said with the metaphor, and the text that immediately surrounds it, is that human beings cannot master nature (such as bradyseism) just as they cannot master fate. The best humans can do is to go on living as well as they can and not passively wait for their fate in despair.

In this section of the book (232-241) there are phone messages from home.

Like fate, "Some `of the news is good, some is ambiguous, some is bad....Candida's message [about daughter Ellen] is ambiguous." (233-4) She frets about the call and delays doing anything until Ida Jerrold convinces Candida to ring somebody. When Candida gets a recording, she doesn't leave a message.

Yet life goes on. The streets of Pozzuoli bustle with the activity of people, strolling, idling, chatting, driving by. "The night air is benign. You would not think, sitting here, that this place was sinking slowly but inevitably and irreversibly under the water....[due to] 'bradyseism.'" (239) Global warming is caused by humans which could be changed, slowed, or stopped by humans; volcanic activity is a natural phenomenon.

Finally Candida calls her daughter directly at the hospital and finds no rejection, no major medical crisis, and the group is relieved along with Candida.

What I liked about the women's reactions is how they supported one another -- Candida was the person most fearful of the unknown (message) -- and especially the women's resilience and positive actions. Some of the women must leave the tour yet despite being shaken by fate the remaining women "make more plans." (241) To me that is true resilience -- the not giving in to despair, thinking about positive rather than negative actions, and making plans even when you don't what fate holds in store for you.

Lou, since you were wondering about bradyseism, I wonder what meaning you sees in this section? Something different than what I think I see?

Marvelle

Wow, what great lines of thought, your submissions are labyrinthine, always leading back to the heart, I’ve really enjoyed reading them.

Thank you Viogert, for the references in other later literature to Virgil’s Golden Bough concept. Since Drabble herself, despite posting an accurate translation of Vergil on page 95, also refers to mistletoe as the “Golden Bough,” (and thank you Pedln for that article, obviously Drabble has consulted Frazer for her interpretations or at least is cognizant of him, well done!) I thought it might be a service to our own readers in this discussion to find out what Vergil himself said, originally (we can’t help what later writers, no matter who they are, interpreted it as, but it’s fascinatingly interesting to see the literary parallels) and so have written an Authority out of the blue at one of our most prestigious universities, to ask. No translation that I can find, and I now have 4, says that Virgil identifies the mistletoe AS Golden Bough. This may be a later interpretation by other authors, OR it may be the newest scholarship, let’s find out.

I think this will be something no other book discussion of this book will have, a definitive answer, and have also asked him about something I believe Drabble got wrong in this section, I’ll put it this way, one of three things exists here:

Drabble IS a very erudite scholar herself

Somebody who is a very erudite scholar has advised her…or…

She’s wrong.

I think it’s the latter, and if the person I wrote is insulted by my stupid questions (as well he might be), I will write somebody else, we need to know, I think it would make a Reader’s Guide like no other.

If you pointed a gun at my head, I would say, that Vergil is clear. He knew the word for mistletoe: viscum and obviously used it in the poem:

quale solet silvis brumali frigore viscum,

It would have been very easy for him to say “it IS the mistletoe” or “a version of same,” or a “haunted mistletoe, “ but he didn’t. At least not what I see. I don’t think Vergil had a problem expressing himself.

However, I’ve been out of the field for 23 years, there may be new findings and scholarship, or other translations. I’ve written to ask. Thank you all for bringing up this point! I think our group here will know what 99 percent of the rest of the world won’t. Many thanks.

This section is full of beautiful writing, and I must say I was struck by this, quite forcibly:

….a multiple, polyphonic person, who need not pretend to be stupid, who can use long words or make classical allusions if she wishes, without fear of being called a pedant or a swat or a semi-educated fool or something trying to be too-clever-by-half.

I’m not sure what all those adjectives mean but I understand the intent and love it. For a book supposedly only about a divorcee nearing her 60’s there’s a HECK of a lot about other things, isn’t there? And it seems here Drabble herself is defending her own right to bring them up.

I loved that.

“The night air is benign.” (page 239). Somewhere in here is a bit about sitting at a sidewalk café,

Sidewalk Café in Italy, Click to enlarge!

I wanted to find it but can’t, too much underlining, but here’s one in Italy, with that peculiar late night light, (taken at about 9 pm) for your interest.

For a simple story about a divorcee, there are enough terms scattered here to choke a horse, huh? Phlegrean Fields, Laocoon, Goethe, James Pope Hennessy ,bradyseism, Parthenope, Procrustean bed, Ascanius, Dido and Carthage, and the author, on page 207, makes reference to a “satisfactory conceit,” which in itself, in my opinion, is another jab at the reader, Look Gentle Reader? I know what a literary conceit is, I may be using one in this book, do you know it when you see it?

Unlike the Aeneid references, I believe these references above are just scattered in there at random, adjuncts to the experience. More to the point, what do YOU think?

Marvelle thank you for one of the most fabulous links I have ever seen in my life, the one explaining The Phlegrean Fields and Bradyseism! That photo of the Roman city under water, sometimes visible, depending on the rise and fall of the land, is spectacular, I have printed that out to keep. Imagine such a thing, depending on the current wave of the land you either walk among the ruins or look at them under water, I can’t conceive of such a thing, thank you for bringing that to our astonished attention (love the translations, how charming).

I was a Geology Lab instructor myself as an undergraduate and found that amazing, the whole thing.

More….

I’m using a split screen here to read your posts and remark on them, if I have misunderstood what you said, it’s not for lack of reading, hahahaha

There are lots of things in this part we need to look at, here’s another one:

“For they are pilgrims, not tourists.” (page 210). What does this mean? If they are pilgrims why does only one “seeker” go out to the Sibyl? What are they seeking on this pilgrimage?

“Mobiles are too modern for Candida.” (page 239) but laptops aren’t? Any excuse will do, apparently?

“The Virgilians, like Aeneas before them, have been washed off course, and will have to plot another route.” (page 241)

The group seems to have bonded to the point that the loss of one will spoil the trip for all. Does this surprise you?

Candida (referred to as “Candy” by Julia on page 209: did that surprise you? Do you think of Candida as ever having been a “Candy?”) seems particularly to be enjoying the group and feels sorry for Anna Palumbo (great point Mme on the dove thing, it was two doves which took Aeneas to the Golden Bough in the first place, probably another coincidence, but wonderful point!) “She is glad she is not Anna Palumbo, traveling alone.” (page 216)_.

I’m going to say that I don’t think Candida Wilton could travel alone, not yet, what do you think? The pitfalls in traveling alone are much overrated, I think.

”Ellen is given to absenting herself.” (page 245). There are ways and ways of absenting oneself, not all physical. Is this an instance of the apple not falling far from the tree? Candida admits she has been a distant wife, and now obviously is a distant mother, for Pete’s sake, is this a family trait?

“She is perched up there like a flat nun on a high ledge.”

What is a “flat nun” and what does thi mean?

Malryn thanks for the cello tip, I’m afraid I’m way inferior to that but I love it anyway! I’ll look it up!

I’m very pleased at the maturity shown in this discussion, the participants seem to be taking the initiatives in many areas and I like that very much, well done!

Marvelle when I read your quote “I hope I may discover some more general purpose as I write. I will have faith that something or someone is waiting for me on the far shore."

I think of John Donne, they also serve who only stand and wait? I feel the same way she does, in order for something to HAPPEN tho you have to MAKE something happen and that’s hard for shy people. Would we say Candida is shy?

Somewhere didn’t Viogert say “Fat Sally” was about 198 lbs? That is fat, but I really like your take on the passive-aggressive tendencies! Good point!

Thank you for the background information on Goethe and what Drabble meant by putting him in this novel.

Kiwi Carolyn, thank you for mentioning Malryn and Sea Bubble among our Seniors here who have coped, we have many Seniors here whose stories you might not know, who have also exhibited great strength in life, that’s what makes our discussions so filled with knowledge and depth.

Marvelle, you are right about “Poor” Julia, she doesn’t seem poor to me!

Thank you Malryn for identifying yet another “Seven,” will put it in the heading, and for the link.

Malryn identifies the Omniscient Third Person narrator here as Candida, what do the rest of you think? How does Candida know what’s in the head of every person present?

Lou wonderful questions on the Aeneid, thank you, the purpose and the gate of false dreams, I think Drabble is writing a book about false dreams, I think going out thru the gate of Ivory for Aeneas might indicate he dreamed the entire thing, myself.

Thank you and Malryn for reminding us of Norway Carolyn’s 7 cards solitaire, I, too , missed it and will put it in the heading, sorry, Carolyn, she always comes up with super stuff.

Carolyn, are you getting your emails?

This “The first card has nothing under it… then second 1 card, on until the seventh which has 6 face down…. So some of the travelers are very shallow? Not much underneath? And some are deep?? And these fellow travelers are taking her, going with her out of her solitude… “ is a super question let’s put it also in the heading.

Mme, thank you for identifying an Othello quote and it’s amazing how literature refers to others! Hahahaha

So you feel like you’ve been let out of a closet with this new third person narrator and Marvelle feels free. I feel strange, and I don’t know why, about this.

Good point on the endlessly repeated “birdless “ lake being full of birds, another misconception perhaps of Candida, and of the spelling, maybe that’s a British spelling of dispersed?

Pedln, wonderful point on Sally, “the woman they like to dislike.” Why is that?

Is it a part of group dynamics, or is Sally actually a problem traveler? I hate traveling with people who complain. Just hate it. Stay HOME if you want to complain.

Here’s the NY Times cartoon of our little Sisters Group, interesting, no?

The Seven Sisters on Tour: Click to enlarge!

I’m kind of stuck here this morning trying to figure out what she’s asking the Sibyl, why she petitions the Sibyl and not God, what the Sibyl answers and what it means and why she rejects the advice. What do you think?

ginny

OK, all 7 in a line... Valeria, the guide on the right, Fat Sally in the middle, Mrs Jerrold to right of Sally.... help me out here with the rest.... Thanks so much for posting this, Ginny, It's great!!

Marvelle, Thanks so much for your patience with me!! and for all your explainations. I am so TRULY in the dark here I'm just hanging on waiting for all of you to tell me what in the world is going on in this book!!! I am a literal minded person. This is not an easy read for a literal minded person...

Lou

HEY LOU!! We were posting together here, I'm running late and will have to return later to block in or indent these sub questions and correct errors, wanted to get up everybody's fine questions!

For Your Consideration:

Week III

Jan 18 - 24 Part 2 The Italian Journey

Week I Questions Still On Offer:

12. How many references are there mentioned in this book to the word Seven?

Seven Sisters Constellation
District of London called Seven Sisters(Viogert)
"Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings? And not one of the is forgotten before God." Epigraph
Dedication: "For Ann, Kay, Pat, Per, Viv and Al" That's six names - Seven Sisters. Is "Maggie" the seventh? (Joan P)
The name Candida has 7 letters (Mme)
"We'll be seven, anyway, if you include the driver." (page 157)
The Seychelles Islands are called the Seven Sisters (Malryn)
The solitaire cards are laid out in a pattern of seven (Norway Carolyn)

Week III:

1. What do you make of the abrupt change of narrator in The Italian Journey?

Who is this Omniscient Third Person narrator who knows the inmost thoughts of each of the travelers?

What effect does this abrupt change have on the story?

Does it change in any way your former conceptions of Candida?

3. "Submit, whispers the wizened Sibyl, who lost her frenzy a thousand years ago. Be still, whispers the dry and witless Sibyl from her wicker basket. Be still. Submit. You can climb no higher. This is the last height. Submit."
But it is not the last height. And she cannot submit.
Who is that waiting on the far shore? Is it her lover or her God? (Pages 246-247)

What does the Sibyl mean?
What does it mean that Candida refuses to “submit?” Submit to what?

What do the italicized words mean? Is this a gloss? Is it a quote?

4. Ellen seems pleased to hear from her mother.

"Why was Candida afraid of her own daughter? Was she afraid of rejection? Surely she had already been rejected and therefore had nothing more to fear. What was this terror? What did it mean?" (Page 245)

How would you answer her? Is it possible the entire estrangement has been in Candida’s wounded mind all along?

5. “It is an ancient, natural phenomenon known as bradisismo, or , in English, 'bradyseism.' It is related to volcanic activity." (Page 239)

What is it?

6. What is it Candida is asking the Sibyl?

Why does she petition the Sibyl and not God?
What does the Sibyl mean by her answer?
< Why does Candida reject the advice?

7. Why is Sally, “the woman they like to dislike.” (Pedln)

8. “The first card has nothing under it… then second 1 card, on until the seventh which has 6 face down…. So some of the travelers are very shallow? Not much underneath? And some are deep?? And these fellow travelers are taking her, going with her out of her solitude… “

What is the connection between the arrangement of a deck of 7 solitaire cards and the group? (Norway Carolyn)

9. Why does Candida continually refer to “Poor” Julia?

Do the other pilgrims share this opinion? (Marvelle)

10. “She is perched up there like a flat nun on a high ledge.” (page 219)

What is a “flat nun” and what does thi mean?

11. ”Ellen is given to absenting herself.” (page 245).

There are ways and ways of absenting oneself, not all physical. Is this an instance of the apple not falling far from the tree? Candida admits she has been a distant wife, could this be a family trait?

12. The group seems to have bonded to the point that the loss of one will spoil the trip for all. Does this surprise you?

Candida (referred to as “Candy” by Julia on page 209: did that surprise you?
Do you think of Candida as ever having been a “Candy?”) She seems particularly to be enjoying the group and feels sorry for Anna Palumbo “She is glad she is not Anna Palumbo, traveling alone.” (page 216)
Do you think Candida Wilton could travel alone?

13. “For they are pilgrims, not tourists.” (page 210).

What does this mean?
If they are pilgrims why does only one “seeker” go out to the Sibyl?
What are THEY seeking on this pilgrimage?

14. Drabble mentions "This is such a satisfactory conceit,” on page 207.

Do you think the author is indicating she may, herself, have used a "literary conceit?" What is a literary conceit and do you think she is using one here?

For Your Consideration: ~ Week I & II

There is a small town buried in a reservoir in northern Westchester County, New York near where I once lived. When the water is low because of lack of rain, it is possible to see it.

More and more I feel snowed in this discussion by you English majors, despite the fact that my Seven Sisters alma mater has been dubbed an "egghead college", an environment where people can grow well intellectually (as if I didn't know!), and I've spent my life trying to learn, either through courses or on my own.

I see this book as a tapestry woven with many threads of different shades and textures. Only one of these threads is Virgil's Aeneid, and it stands out somewhat more than the others. The most prominent thread, as I see it, is Candida Wilton and the friends she mentions -- or is with -- throughout the book.

These seven aging women, who have taken it upon themselves to retrace some steps Aeneas took, are very different from each other and often unusual. All, except for Sally, are bonded by a common interest. I want to know about these women; I want to talk about them and their differences, their lives and their ideas. In the context of this book, they interest me far more than Virgil's Aeneid, which is the part of the bond which brought them to where they are, a bond that will separate them if it is broken. When you break this book down just to plot, there is the story of a divorced woman who is unsettled in her mind and at loose ends. A windfall of money comes to her, and she gathers her friends to take a trip. The Aeneid, a story known to all but one, it appears, provides a destination.

I don't think Margaret Drabble has to defend herself about anything. Candida was talking about herself in the "too-clever-by-half" quote, and I see every reason why she should. In the old days, "conceit" meant "concept". The use of "satisfactory conceit" on page 207 makes good sense to me. Whether the use of this term is a literary conceit I don't know.

I think Ellen had been smothered by her father's will, just as Candida had been smothered by it as Andrew's wife. The distance they appear to have created and want is, I believe, a need for privacy, something mother and daughter have in common because of the past.

Think about it. Was Candida really just waiting for something to happen? I believe that if she had been waiting in that way, she would have stayed in Suffolk and never would have made the move that she did. By doing so, she took a great risk. Women who stagnate while waiting for someone or something to nudge them into some kind of action don't do this kind of thing.

As far as singling Carolyn, Bubble and me out as "copers", there is not one of us Seniors in SeniorNet (or in the world) who has not had one or more traumatic things happen to them in their lives with which they have had to cope. That's how I see it, anyway.

Mal

Ginny, as soon as my piano pupils learned to read music and mastered basic technique, I started them on Bach and Mozart. Give the cello part in string trios and quartets a try. There's great pleasure in playing chamber music, as you will find out one day.

Mal

I really enjoyed the conversation between Candida and Julia while the rest were playing bridge... wondering into the bar and talking over old times... conversation wondering between 2 friends with lots of shared history... feeling free to say "you look a damn sight better than you did..." asking "Did he know how to do it???"... Long term friendships... nothing like them!!

Lou

Lou, patience with you? Goodness, not patience but fellowship (sisterhood?) You go in fascinating, complex directions and I breathlessly, gladly follow your lead. I love your questions and thoughts but was having trouble trying to express the dream state etc. Literary devices, like symbols and metphors and allusions, say much with a few words. We can recognize a literary device quickly enough but to explain it ... means we're opening the can with the compressed snake, and it explodes out of the can and expands and expands. Quite a fun challenge actually. But Drabble is playing with meanings and the reader and I enjoy the ride.

Marvelle

Lou -- I agree absolutely about their conversations. (A conceit is also 'a fanciful notion, a whim') The early catching-up in Ladbroke Grove when Julia first visited was the same but more personal, & confidential - they were open with each other, asked personal questions & answered them. It is exactly how old friends can pick up where they left off years ago. Their remarks about women 'with a long afterlife' in these times, would be in the knowledge of earlier, ancient times when rulers built cities like Carthage, Troy & Babylon - & when they lived to a great age as philosophers, poets, mathamaticians & navigators. It would be worth asking why the Sibyl wanted to die - what had occurred that made death attractive?

The answer to 'poor' Julia is probably referring to the mood she was in - feeling she deserved better, but not that she was impoverished or pathetic. I'm sure it's said sympathetically & with understanding.

In this section Drabble has several times listed the divers topics the women discussed. The subjects ranged widely. Candida probably had previously assumed the role of listener with incompatible acquaintances, & was a biddable person - (as she records obedience to her mother's refusal to allow her to work.) Sally has thought of her as being 'docile' until this journey. On her own, she would have been a listener - an observer. Sally says she "seems to have disconnected herself" p171 I still see Candida as detached & quite capable of travelling alone - certainly at ease with anyone of an open mind.

A mobile telephone suggests communication; a laptop suggests solitude.

Viogert said:

It would be worth asking why the Sibyl wanted to die - what had occurred that made death attractive?

Am I the only Harry Potter fan here? Nicholas Flamel lived over 600 years made possible by the elixir and the Sorcerer's stone. When the stone is destroyed Nicholas and his wife will die. Dumbledore says "To one as young as you, I'm sure it seems incredible, but to Nicolas and Perenelle, it really is like going to bed after a very,very long day. After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." Endless life... here without the angels, songs and other Heavenly things could be very very tiring, I would imagine.... Though I do have to say, my mom is 97, in a nursing home, flat on her back... when she can have a conversation she still says "Only 3 years to 100"!!! Deliver me from that is all I can say!!! All that to say, when you can't even have the satisfaction of eating good food or drinking good wine or hugging your best friend, why would you want to live??? Poor Sibyl!!!! Of all the images of the Aeneid conversation, I think the one of Sibyl hanging in a basket, asking for death, will be the one I retain the longest. Poor poor poor Sibyl.

Lou

Question 11 '"Ellen is given to absenting herself" (245) Is this an instance of the apple not falling far from the tree? Candida admits to being a distant wife, is this a family trait?'

Yes. We've already noted the distance Candida put between herself and Andrew and daughters. After the divorce, Andrew, Althea and Martha live together "in a warm flsuhed emotional fusion of mutual condonement. It is all Darling This and Darling That....I don't like it. Andrew and I were never effusive with one another. We did not indulge in displays of endearments. I find such manners false....Maybe this was what Andrew always wanted. Maybe he always wanted what I couldn't give him." (49)

We also see a distance between Candida and her mother and then there's the elusive father. Drabble is interested in genetics and I think this is one example of that interest. Here are some text quotes that refer to Candida and her parents and a small one about her own mothering. The bold is my emphasis and any italics are my thoughts.

-- "I haven't seen the bodies of my daughters in year, not since they reached the modes age of puberty, and in later years I avoided the school boarders and their bedtime rituals. I wasn't paid to be a school matron, was I? And I wasn't very good at being motherly." (9)

-- [As a schoolgirl] "I wouldn't say I was one of the belles of the school, because that would imply a certain art of presentation which I have always been anxious to avoid. I was brought up in a religious family, and we did not believe in improving on nature." (15)

-- During school break, Candida says that perhaps it was Witsuntide, she accepts the offer to visit Julia's home. "I couldn't go home that weekend, as my father was ill, and my mother reluctant to have me in the house, and I was loathe to linger at school, exposed as homeless, with all the other miserable unwanted girls who had nowhere to go. I grasped eagerly at Julia's face-saving invitation...." (30)

Candida, the girl who carries on under a towel and checks the mirror to see its effect, can't go home when her father's ill, maybe the serious illness. It's her mother who says no? And the move from Suffolk after the divorce is a face-saving step.

-- "Julia's parents made no attempt to control Julia.....(unlike me) she had clearly got the upper hand at home. [Julia went to the cinema with boys and the pub and stayed out late.] Nice girls just didn't do that kind of thing in those days." (31)

So Candida sees family as a type of power struggle and that's what her acting out with a towel is about? although unsuccessful. Her parents are conservative with ideas of how 'nice girls' behave.

After the divorce Candida considers returning to the Midlands where her mother lives in a care home. But "I didn't think about it for very long. There was nothing to attract me back. And after Father's death, I did not want to be too near my mother, for fear she would suck me in. A failing mother and a daughter shamed. This was not a scenario I fancied." (43)

Resentment and distancing; a type of payback. Was there competition for her father's attention? Her father was the only attraction to the old home?

-- "The only framed photograph I've brought with me [to the apartment in Ladbroke Grove] is a postcard-sized portrait of my long-dead father. I don't display it. I keep it in a drawer." (52-3)

More resentment and a way to finally control her father/family? Payback time in a cycle of repeated family traits. Wonder if Candida's daughters do the same with her picture? I noticed how Candida never enlarged her father's tiny picture.

On page 53 Candida mentions the hard-edged mascot had had as a young girl rather than the fluffy ones other girls favored. Emblematic of her homelife?

-- The divorced Candida visits the PriceCutter shop where everything is flashy and colorful. Candida is used to the display and knows how to avoid it but one evening "I felt mesmerized by the display. A sense of cheap poison prevailed. It reminded me of my mother's warnings against the confectionary in Woolworths. Nevertheless...[she buys a pot of stuffed vine leaves which she later finds distasteful]. (58)

-- Julia had once met Candida's parents when in school. "My parents had invited her out for a meal with us at Abbey Hotel at one of those half-term ceremonies, one of the few they had bothered to attend, and she had tried to flirt with my father, not very successfully. My father was not a flirtatious man." (89)

Was her father ill at this point? Distant, uninvolved parents; definitely not demonstrating much affection. Going to neutral territory in a hotel rather than getting up something special at home.

"When I was a girl, I wanted to get a job, to earn some pocket money, to learn about the world....But my mother wouldn't let me. She thought shop work wasn't ladylike. She had never worked. She didn't expect to work. I was an obedient child, and I did not resist her prohibition." (89)

This is a quote Carolyn mentioned. Candida resents the prohibition of her conservative mother and there's that word 'ladylike'.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree but can an adult take responsiblity for themselves and their actions? Is it fated to be 'like mother/father like daughter' forever and ever?

Marvelle

Nobody said it was, Marvelle.

Question I:

I agree with Malryn that Candida is the omniscient narrator. In Part One, she has been analysing her own reactions to people and events. This sort of subjective assessment seems to be necessary to her development...and she IS developing, from the pale,passive ex-housewife to a more self-reliant, active person.

Taking on the omniscient role could be her next step in expanding. Perhaps by trying to read (or at least imagine) the thoughts of her companions she hopes to emerge from her subjective self by achieving a sort of empathy.

Ginny, your e-mails have been received. Thanks.

Carolyn A.

Page 18

"I have always been a passive person."

Page 209. Arm in arm, Candida and Julia are wending their way to their rooms.

"At school, they hadn’t been allowed to walk arm in arm. Any form of touching, apart from body blows on the battlefield of sport, had been against the rules."

Obedient, passive Candida had been raised in an untouchable society. Why would anyone expect her to be anything but what she is? My question is: If Andrew really liked effusive, demonstrative women like Anthea, why did he ever marry Candida?

Mal

"The Sibyl of Cumae gained her powers by attracting the attention of the sun god Apollo. Apollo offered her anything if she would spend a single night with him. She asked for as many years of life as grains of sand she could squeeze into her hand. Granted, the sun god said; and Sibyl, glad to win her boon, refused his advances. Thereafter she was cursed with the fulfillment of her wish--eternal life without eternal youth. She slowly shriveled into a frail undying body, so tiny that she fit into a jar. Her container was hung from a tree; Sibyl needed, of course, no food or drink, for she could neither starve nor die of thirst. And there she hung, croaking occasional oracles, while children would stand beneath her urn and tease, 'Sibyl, Sibyl, what do you wish?' To which she would faintly reply, 'I wish to die.' "

Map of the Underworld

Lou, I'm a great Harry Potter fan but I haven't gone yet to see an HP movie. The books were so fine that I'm nervous about having a movie strike a discordant chord in my imagination of the Potter world. Your thinking about the sibyl is wonderful, as usual, and I love how you link the Sibyl to Dumbledore and company. Yes, there is something terribly wasteful with the sibyl's 'merely existing, not living' state. What do you think the purpose of the sibyl of legend would be to The Seven Sisters -- without regard to what the narrator says?

Marvelle

Flat nun could refer to a nun buoy. Buoys are usually red, aren't they? Anna Palumbo was wearing a red nightshirt. Flat nun is also a German term, and I don't know what it means.

The Sibyl was Aeneas's guide through the Underworld. Valeria is the Seven Sisters' guide, but she's no Sibyl, is she? All of the women are living, not existing, so it can't be that.

I was thinking while I was in bed coughing and sneezing still, after more than a week with this cold, that Candida used the third person throughout in what we've been calling the glosses, hasn't she? Her use of it now doesn't really surprise me.

Back to bed.

Mal

Is it possible to find some significance between the names of Aeneas & Anais do you think?

Did you notice, on the bottom of 214 Candida is watching the departure, she is happy, then the soot lands on her... "She does not thnk of the flakes from Dido's pyre, and the smell of Dido's burning flesh." Then top of 215 the gloss is in quotation marks...

'Put out to sea, Ignoble conrades. Our end is life. Put out to sea!'

The narrator is mulling death of Dido and then "Our end is life." Does anyone recognize that quotation? In the middle of celebrating how happy Candida is, the soot and the narrator brings up Dido's death. No matter that we are feeling this section is lighter, death is still shadowing for the narrator....

Lou

Answer to my own question!! See what happens when your hubby gets up really early???

Put out to sea, ignoble comrades, Whose record shall be noble yet; Butting through scarps of moving marble The narwhal dares us to be free; By a high star our course is set, Our end is Life. Put out to sea.

from Thalassa, Louis MacNeice

You know what makes me craziest??? I just spend at least an hour looking for that... it's listed on the verso of the title page. I guess my library brain gear is gone!!

Lou

Good morning! Monday mornings...always hold out the promise of optimistic accomplishment...for the day, for the entire week! The weekend was spent "entertaining" a 17 month-old - actually, it was the other way around. You should see my house! I don't think there is a drawer, shelf, or pantry that has not been invaded. The most unlikely household items made the most fascinating toys...and they are turning up in the strangest places. Funny how the house seems strangely empty and quiet. Well, I guess it is. It occurs to me that if and when Candida has her own grandchildren, she will discover a whole other side of her personality. Grandchildren - great therapy. They take you out of yourself and you find someone very different in your stead.

What I am trying to say is that I have just now completed the JOURNEY section, have not yet read ANY of your reactions (there are 38 of your posts waiting to be read)...so I'm not ignoring you when I tell you my own initial observation of this section....well, actually, I'm telling you just the opposite...I AM IGNORING YOU...until I get a chance to read all you have to say. Will print out all 38 posts and read them later today, after I have brought some order into this household! ..

#1. The "abrupt change of narrator"...from the first-person diary to the omniscient mind-reader occurs at the same time Valeria arrives on the scene...our take-charge tour director, who assesses each member of this group with a detached objective eye. On some level I sense that the narrator and Valeria are CLOSE to being one and the same...not QUITE, but they do seem somehow connected.

Did you notice that the glosses remain? So much for the idea that Candida is adding them to her diary as she rereads it...or even as an outline. The diary-writing seems to be over...but the glosses remain. Now at last, a more objective view of Candida as seen by others. No more of this hyper-critical, depressed, negative view of herself. Has my own assessment of Candida changed much from seeing her as others see her? Hmmm...she's seen as a peacemaker here...a motivator...someone who propels action. That's changed. Not as I saw her in her earlier life though...but as she is now behaving on this trip in her new-found skin. It is very possible that her estranged detachment with Ellen has been in her own mind... though she's probably been detached from the girls, and everyone else in her old Suffolk life - including herself. Depression can do that. A peacemaker? Maybe that's what she was doing back in Suffolk, at her own expense, without even realizing it?

Who's writing the glosses? The omnicient narrator of this section? The author herself?

This ominicient narrator is something else, isn't she? She's not just reporting on the characters, but she's reaching out to us, the readers.

"You know them (the shapes and patterns of the antique heart) by birthright." "You know that land." "You can breath more freely in that sunny clime...no longer huddle and shiver and wrap yourself into your own arms and clench your self back into your own self."

Yes, I know this...the sunny clime beckons right now in the dead of winter. I know the feeling. The narrator speaks directly to me, understands ME, I'm involved...and ready to listen and believe ALL the narrator has to tell me about Candida Wilston. Finally I feel, I can stop imagining who this woman really is...the narrator will tell me. And at the same time, I am also ready to trust Valeria's assessment of her character too.

Later! Looking forward to reading all of your thoughts next!

Joan, I envy you the visit from the grand... Ours are sooooo far away, we miss them. Loved your thoughts on the new Candida and your take on the narrator. Enjoyed your thinking...

Marvelle, gently coaxing.... OK, it's better for the seven sisters to live and make mistakes, or is it risks, or both? than to exist at home in solitude. Take part in life rather than let it happen to them. Am I getting there?? LOL

Lou

Lou, you know the answer to your question just as well as Marvelle or anyone else does. You obviously have an educated, well-trained mind. What do you think? Thanks for revealing to us the author and source of the quote.

Joan:- Where do you read that the diary writing is over? If Candida is writing Part Two, then these are her thoughts, observations and glosses just as those in Part One were. Take charge Valeria and the narrator are one and the same? I'm not sure I agree, but if it is true, what does that tell us about Candida?

Mal

Running a little late today, and way behind, trying to catch up, so glad to see you again, Joan P!

Using the split screen again, not to miss ONE point, welcome back Norway Carolyn!

Lou, I agree, in the Cartoon that’s our Tour Guide in front, is that Candida second? Mrs. Jerrold with her nose in a book, Sally and who are the other three? Who is that with the airplane thing on her head? I figure the one with the long hair is Anais?

Malryn, that must be something to see a city under water. I understand they’ve found an entire city off the coast of…is it Egypt or Israel? I would kill to see something like that.

Thank you for the suggestions, I’ve had 17 cello lessons and am working on three Bach duets now.

You said, “More and more I feel snowed in this discussion by you English majors,”. Who here is an English major and why have you made that assumption? I wasn’t an English major.

You said, “she would have stayed in Suffolk and never would have made the move”

One thing in this section that she did do, (am I the only one let down here on the trip?)

When I travel my husband who doesn’t and who hates to travel, won’t call with bad news, he simply won’t tell me lest it spoil the trip. Of course a serious thing he’d call, but then again, thank God, I’m not estranged from my children.

I had such hopes for this trip of Candida’s. now three phone calls have ruined it, it would seem. One good news, one bad, one stressful.

I very much dislike the judgments Miss Valeria gives, (please note I did not say I dislike HER?)

“Valeria is surprised: who can want to contact her charges? At their age they are so thinly connected to life. That is why they are here, with her. Who can be recalling them, and to what? They are past the age for good news.”

Excuse me? How ignorant can you get? The fact that she is NOT familiar with the Phlegrean Fields does not surprise me, nor the problems with the van.

VERY heavy handed foreshadowing by Drabble, for Pete’s sake, “Some sort of trouble is brewing. A difficulty has entered their smooth and joyous journey.” (page 233)

I am disappointed in our “pilgrims” here. News follows them and so, bonded as they are, they start to falter, a let down, confusion. Candida is the only one who goes on her own to the Sibyl. Why? Surely Mrs. Jerrold is not that put off by the experiences of the others?

In this one thing Candida shows some strength, I liked that.

More….

Marvelle, I liked this:

We can recognize a literary device quickly enough but to explain it ... means we're opening the can with the compressed snake, and it explodes out of the can and expands and expands. Quite a fun challenge actually. But Drabble is playing with meanings and the reader and I enjoy the ride.

Roslyn wrote something a while back that I wish all of our readers could feel: she wrote about regarding a work of literature like a chef would a sumptuous feast, the delight in the looking for this or that element, the joy in approaching a work. It is a challenge, who knew all this stuff was in this book? Those of you who keep saying the Aeneid is only a thread, we hear you. Those of you who want to look closer, go for it.

Viogert, actually a conceit in literature is a bit more than a fanciful notion, a whim. Here’s one definition:

Conceit. An elaborate, usually intellectually ingenious poetic comparison or image, such as an analogy or metaphor in which, say a beloved is compared to a ship, planet, etc. The comparison may be brief or extended. See Petrarchan Conceit. (Conceit is an old word for concept.) See John Donne's "Valediction: Forbidding Mourning," for example: "Let man's soul be a sphere, and then, in this, / The Intelligence that moves, devotion is."

Good point on all the different topics the women discussed. They also each share something in this section, I’m not sure what they are sharing has a lot of relevance, what do you all think.

Excellent point on the laptop and the mobile phone, so it’s not the mod cons that are her problem, it’s the two way communication.

Lou great point on the Harry Potter, I have not seen the latest one, unfortunately, have you?

God bless your mother for her attitude, aren’t YOU lucky?

I really liked your take on the Nicholas Flamel/ Sibyl comparison, why would Candida want to consult somebody who had lived so long that they only wanted to die? What sort of wisdom might they receive, (I don't even know the question much less how to interpret the answer "Submit.")

Marvelle, great point on the bodies of my daughters, this section also has a strange reference to “bodies, “ or “persons,” I marked it but can’t find it now, strange how she always seems to be making a distinction, huh?

Good work on her mother not wanting her in the house !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very astute rendering of Candida’s family relationships, many thanks!

Carolyn, why do you think Candida is the Omniscient Narrator? Who knows the minds of others? Or do you think she THINKS she does? That bit about Valeria makes me pause, but who but Valieria would know she does not know the Phlegrean Fields?

In this section we suddenly have a GLOSS!!!!!!!!!

A Gloss. Page 247: Who is sthat waiting on the far shore? Is it her lover or her God?

WHAT does this mean? WHY has the Gloss reappeared?

More….

I feel slapped. I did not mention names, Ginny, and should have stopped after I said, "I feel snowed."

I have never made tapestries, but I have created designs and knitted them, and I have also written music. In doing so, I have examined every strand of yarn or chord and melodic theme and analyzed the dominant and sub-dominant ones and their place in the whole of what I did. In saying what I did, I was not tryihg to minimize the importance of the Aeneid in this book, I was describing how I saw it. Seven Sisters is a very visual work in my mind.

I won't mention that or music again.

Mal

Sorry you feel "slapped"?!? Malryn? I am just responding to your own statement about feeling snowed under and asking you what you meant? If you post something, you, I'm sure, are open to people asking what you mean? I don't know, for instance, of ANY English Major here, I could be wrong, and often am, I know I wasn't, as I just said, and of course, I can only speak for myself.

If you post a message one assumes you don't mind being questioned on what you said, just as you question others?

Sorry if you found that offensive, it was not intended that way, and neither was the information on the Bach duets, I thought that the number of lessons itself would be pretty indicative of the lack of talent here hahahaha

Anyway, no offense intended, and I would appreciate it if none were taken.

ginny

No offense taken. Good luck with your cello, Ginny.

Mal

Ginny ---it's misleading to insist on only one meaning of a word like 'conceit' that has 20 different meanings listed in the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. Julia suggested - during a light-hearted conversation about cats, that older women keep them like grave goods in the ancient world. "This is such a satisfactory conceit that both women feel very much more cheerful". It was a fanciful conversation between old friends. "In fact Candida says, she hasn't felt so cheerful in years'. It was certainly a conception, but a very light-hearted one - more of a joke?

Candida, having caught the train to Sibyl's cave proved herself capable of travelling on her own & not dependent on others. Her reaction to Sibyl's instruction to submit, I interpreted as a refusal to resign herself to 'being old' at 60. She had seen & admired Mrs Jerrold - who was 18 years her senior & could see the Sibyl in her, & looked forward to the Sibyl in herself.

That was an interesting point that Malryn made about Valeria not being a Sibyl, Valeria herself seems to think she is but I don’t. Am not too impressed with our Valeria.

Viogert, we’ve come around on that Aeneas Anais name thing, what do YOU think is the significance between the names? We drew no conclusions. I personally don’t have a clue.

Oh GOOD point, Lou, on the burning Dido flesh. I don’t know why references to Dido keep appearing, have no clue what that means, she was also an abandoned woman?

she is happy, then the soot lands on her... "She does not think of the flakes from Dido's pyre, and the smell of Dido's burning flesh." Then top of 215 the gloss is in quotation marks... 'Put out to sea, Ignoble comrades. Our end is life. Put out to sea!' The narrator is mulling death of Dido and then "Our end is life."

And thank you for identifying the quotation, too!

“Our end is life, “ huh? VERY interesting. Is Drabble making some suggestion here with this and the Submit stuff? If so, what?

Wonderful sharp reading, Lou! And thank you Malryn for the attempt at the flat nun.

Lou do you know Google?

Oh GOOD point on the Omniscient Third Person/ Valeria connection, Joan P!!... but Valeria’s ESP fails her in more than one way!

I only see one gloss are you seeing others?

I wondered if when that gloss appeared was significant?

I’ll put your question on the glosses in the heading with my earlier one, thanks!!

Oh EXCELLENT point on the Omniscient Narrator reaching out to the READER!~!!!!!!!

"YOU! You! You!" Over and over, good point, I was not sure if that was the Reader or maybe “you” as a whole human experience.

Oh gosh, I’m caught up, back with my own thoughts, if these 7 women are pilgrims as Drabble says on page 210, then they seek something, each one of them? What is it?

I’ll say Candida seeks the answer to the question she has (whatever it is) on “Endless life.” She’s not even 60, what does she mean by “endless life.”

What’s that Soap? Like grains thru the hourglass, so are the days of our lives. Hahaahha

What are the rest of them seeking including SibylNOT Valeria?

ginny

Viogert, am not insisting on the one word meaning of conceit at all, sorry it seems that way, but was merely asking the opinion of the group, IF in fact, Drabble might have been indicating she was trying a literary conceit, I wonder myself, still. I think right now she is, I may change my mind, the question is in the heading for reference.

You are, of course, correct in the other definitions, and interpretations, thank you for your response to that question, very possible, indeed, your take on it.

ginny

Yikes! What a a lot of posts. It seems that whenever I get into a book discussion I am suddenly besieged by visits from children and grands! I had no time to do much at all on the weekend or yesterday.

I see the book from the same perspective as Mal. However as I have said before; to me a book is like a painting and we see the work from different perspectives. Half the fun is learning how others see the work.

Someone said earlier in this discussion that maybe Drabble was trying to outdo her sister with this novel. The more I think about it the more this seems likely! However I will need to read more Drabble to be completely sure. I have read one other book and certainly this is a departure from the style of that one.

I will be back later with more!

Carolyn (NZ)

I find myself saying “Caution” when I read Part Two, since I believe Candida is writing The Italian Journey. The “You know that land” passage says to me early on she’s writing to herself. There are subtle slips from a third person mind to a first person one and various references that tell me the same thing.

Assuming that my hypothesis about the narrator is correct, the view of Valeria is Candida’s. There are parts written about her that sound to me like Part One, critical, judgmental, the way Candida was about her friends earlier in the book. The tone when Candida’s friends are mentioned is softer, less critical here. I believe she is into Mrs. Jerrold’s mind because Mrs. J. has told herself so much about her husband and herself. Candida doesn’t know Valeria, and appears to me to put her own thoughts in Valeria’s mind.

This whole section seems surreal and dream-like to me somehow. I like the part about the boys and the sea urchins.

“And it is Anais who is the first to notice the appalling behaviour of the sucked shells of the monsters. They climb up on their spikes, and they walk away from the scene of the destruction.”

This reminds me of the Underworld in the Aeneid, but why and where I can’t say. Perhaps it is the vision of the unburied souls yearning for Charon to take them to the other side that I had when I studied the map of the Underworld I posted last night.

There is death throughout this part of the book, which begins on the airplane. That is only one example, the sea urchin scene and the visit to the Sibyl are others.

What does each of these pilgrims seek?

Candida seeks an answer to whether she should live or die and answers about her relationship with her children, as well as peace in her mind about old age and death.

Julia seeks youth in the form of a backer for a new work and a new lover, so she'll forget old age.

Mrs. Jerrold seeks her husband, Eugene, and a youthful time that is past.

Sally seeks the road back home.

Anais seeks new wares to sell in London and a lover.

Cynthia’s looking for a new adventure and a possible lover. (She’s not all that different from her husband in that respect, as I see it. I believe she enjoys risks as much as Mr. Barclay does.)

Valeria seeks more business like the group she’s showing around to finance the Black Athena Tour she dreams of and maybe a new lover, too. These are all guesses.

Isn’t it interesting that Mrs. Jerrold and her daughter have been estranged for so many years?

Andrew can’t loosen his grip on Candida, can he?

Does this group of pilgrims here in this discussion remind you of the pilgrims in the book?

Mal

“She seeks for the Sibyl and waits for her dismissal” The Gloss, 244

The gloss--- You are dismissed is you are employed. If you are a student. If you are in the presence of a superior, king or queen, military superior you are dismissed… At the end of an audience… but that would be a superior…. If you are in an audience, assembly you are dismissed… But none of these are apparent with Candida and the Sibyl, are they??? When/why do you seek dismissal????

Then 245, “Candida thinks she cannot take any more disappoinment. She will humble herself, and ask the Sibyl what to do.”

I thought Candida was feeling much better, having a good time… She knows Ellen is OK????? Is this just long term disappointment? Or has she been disappointed on her trip?

Ginny, I agree, I was also disappointed in the trip... I was hoping for a real tour... Look again, Ginny... there are a bunch of glosses! I can't have affected you that much already!! I read Harry Potter... The first movie on video, but I love the books... Number 5 is already a best seller, pre-pub!!

Lou

Well by gosh, Lou, you are so right! They are all over the place on the sides, I never saw them!

I guess the one that jumped out at me

she hesitantly ventures
with fear yet
cheerful hopefulness

hahaaah (now she's got ME doing it) is the last line in this Part II. It's the only one at the BOTTOM of the text instead of being on the side. (Is that right? hahahahaa)

I guess that's why it stuck out, never saw the others, how did you come out in your experiment to only read the glosses?

THIS is strange!

I'm not going to respond to all of your points now, just came flying in here again to ask who this Salammbo is? (page 203) I never heard of him (her?) and Drabble seems to think we should know of him/her? Did you all?

Am trying to find a super photo I've got, back anon....

Tisi

I was editing my last message and took too long... darn... Let me try it this way...

“She seeks for the Sibyl and waits for her dismissal” The Gloss, 244

The gloss--- You are dismissed is you are employed. If you are a student. If you are in the presence of a superior, king or queen, military superior you are dismissed… At the end of an audience… but that would be a superior…. If you are in an audience, assembly you are dismissed… But none of these are apparent with Candida and the Sibyl, are they??? When/why do you seek dismissal???? Did you all see SEEK??? I just saw that as my time was running out... Is this the reason for her pilgrimage??? SEEKING Dismissal??? And does this connect with the disappointment??? (See 440) I was looking at the dismissal so hard I missed seek....

I don't know...

Lou

Ginny, interesting, but couldn't figure anything out with the glosses.....

Salammbo by Gustave Flaubert.... Salammbo is Hamilcar's daughter... is what I found in skimming the first chapter....

OK, now who is Hamilcar he's also in here someplace....

Lou

Is this the one? Funny the guy who started the (blind, ha ha) trust so important to Andrew Wilton is named Hamilcar Henson, isn't it? Remember poor Jane of Lady Pond fate had a vision problem, her eyes seemed to be on the side of her head? Hamilcar H's trust footed the bill for her tuition to school.

Hamilcar Barca

Who is that waiting on the far shore? Is it her lover or her god?

I believe this gloss is taken from an important Christian belief with its roots of course in the Bible. Christians, epecially in religious/gospel songs, often express the hope that, after their death, Jesus will be waiting for them on the far shore as they cross from life into death. This is the Jesus who loved humankind so much that he sacrificed himself. Jesus died on the cross but he did appear many times after death.

The seventh appearance was of Jesus on the far shore of the Sea of Galilee ...as noted in the following section of the King James Bible:

John 21

Like most of Seven Sisters there can be many meanings to the ending gloss in Part 2. Is Jesus the lover who forgives; and God would be the judge? Will return soon....there were over 20 messages posted after I last signed on and I want to read them all carefully.

Marvelle

Why were Candida and Mrs. Jerrold disconcerted by the name of the airplane in which they flew to Tunis? The airplane's name was Salammbo.

Mal

Considering all the references to the Aeneid in this book, Marvelle, I regard that question to mean:- Would Candida find life or death on that distant shore? That's what this book is about, isn't it? The Aeneid and life or death? Or am I once again mistaken?

Mal

I believe that the gloss which refers to Jesus' seventh appearance could be an actual or a symbolic death. Goethe went to Naples and died, symbolically, and was reborn.

Candida has lost her whiny, complaining tone and maybe that's a rebirth of sorts? Or did she die? We may find out as we continue to explore the Seven Sisters. I think the gloss is a nice cliffhanger to keep us interested and turning the pages of the book.

Marvelle

The obvious question here, Marvelle, is how do you know the gloss refers to Jesus's seventh appearance?

Mal

There's a thin delineation between fact and fancy in this book. I am trying to keep that in mind.

Mal

From the Pleiades link in the heading and other google searches: The dimmest star of the Pleiades is Merope, the only one of the 7 sisters to marry a mortal rather than a god. Her kinship gained her entry into the constellation but not at quite the same status because of her unfortunate marriage. She married the mortal Sisyphus. Here is the famous essay by Camus, the Nobel-winning French Existential Philosopher, about

SISYPHUS

I believe this is saying something about Candida's search or endless fate. And the conversations in Part 2 have an existential ring to them. For instance, on pages 205-206, Julia looks at the walking skeletons of the dead sea urchins and asks: 'Don't you think we're a bit like those poor creatures? Scuttling around after we're dead?'

Candida feels she owes Julia an answer for "she instigated this journey, and it is on her account therefore that they scuttle and drift, if that is what they do." My opinion is that 'they' means the 7 sisters. Candida says in reply to Julia 'No, I don't think it's like that.'

Julia: 'We can't pretend that we are young any more....So, what are we, after all?.... So what is the point of us?'

"A long silence ensues, broken by a triumphant cry from Cynthia, and a 'Well done! That's the spirit!' from Mrs. Jerrold."

This is Existentialism IMO and the conversation continues in that vein.

As careful readers we connect the dots between allsions to a French philosopher, the mention of Camus, and how the dimmest star -- Candida/Merope -- married herself to that pure example of existentialism, Sisyphus.

__________________________________________

I'd been mulling this over for some time but the posts of Lou and Joan helped tremendously but I'm still considering and open to ideas.

Joan posted "Finally I can stop imagining who this woman [Candida] really is...." Have we seen the real Candida yet? I'm still wondering but feel I'm getting closer. Part 2 explained the existential despair of Candida so well, which is much like Stevens in Remains of the Day despite the different writing styles and approaches to characterization.

Camus (1913-1960) wrote that "If there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life."

________________________________

Another thing about Merope/Candida, the dimmest star of the Pleiades. Meropia is a medical condition of partial blindness. I believe this explains Candida and/or the narrator's only partial understanding of the Aeneid and bradyseism among other partial understandings.

With bradyseism, the city isn't sinking -- despite what the narrator says -- irretrivably and slowly. Volcanic activity has lifted the city up as you can see in photos and, just as the ancient city under the water, there is a rise and fall, rise and fall, to this volcanic activity.

I don't believe that Drabble was mistaken but she had to show the partial blindness of Candida which gets readers to questioning truth and life. There are numerous examples of this partial blindness scattered throughout the book.

________________________________________

It's Candida I think who was questioning the most and searching for happiness, appropriate since she was married to Sisyphus; but each sister is a part of the Existential World although at different stages of 'being.' And we've been doing our own Existential Search while following Candida and the Sisters. I personally like going down this road of thoughts with the different pilgrims.

Marvelle

And to think I posted about Existentialism and this book so many posts ago and nobody noticed. Oh, well.

No, Marvelle, Candida didn't marry Sisyphus, she was Sisyphus, pushing the same old rock up the same old hill and going to retrieve it after it rolled back down to do it over again for more than twenty years. The great stone face suits her to a T.

How fashionable Camus' Myth of Sisyphus was in the 60's! I remember heated discussions about it over my dining room table with people who didn't know what my husband and I were talking about and one Frenchman who did. He laughed at our American misunderstanding of Camus and Existentialism and probably is still laughing today.

Well, I will say that in your intellectual meanderings you do keep me hopping -- from rebirth for Candida in the Aeneid Underworld to a symbolic Christian death and a Jesus Christ resurrection to Camus and his version of Sisyphus. What's next? Sartre maybe? Do you ever sleep and rest? Take vitamins, Marvelle.

Mal

These 2 posts are why I'm so glad I come here each day to read and enjoy!!! Ladies, your mental energies are truly something to behold!! I would love to spend just a few minutes in each of your heads!

Thanks so much for sharing here.

Lou

Back later today on your own wonderful submissions.

I caution you all quite strongly not to negatively characterize any submission of any participant here, nor to make any ad hominem remarks at all, as they are not in the spirit of SeniorNet and certainly not what we have worked more than 6 ½ years here to create in the Books & Lit.

The Today Show last Mother’s Day said a membership in SeniorNet was the best gift you could give your mother for Mother’s Day, we take that very seriously here on the /books area of the website, let’s make sure every person who comes in here is treated, their submission and their “person,” as Drabble would say, with the same respect we ourselves would hope for.

The Glosses

The question has been brought up before of the possibility of reading only the glosses to see if they provide some sort of outline. Here they are for Part II, what, if anything, do you see?

They assemble for
their departure

They fly onwards
through the
thunderbolts of
Jove

They arrive in
Africa, and meet
their stately guide

Our heroine is
threatened by an
invasion

The seven sisters
see the sights

The seven sisters
exult in their first
league out from
land

”Put out to sea,
ignoble comrades.
Our end is life. Put
out to sea!

They reach
Naples and the
promised land of
Italy

She seeks for the
Sibyl and waits for
her dismissal

Who is that waiting on the far shore? Is it her lover or her God?

Note that that last one is all on one line and located at the very end of the unit, that's new, isn't it?

Really stood out for me.

Did I miss one? The way they’re set in, I can’t tell, I did not look for them as Candida says on page 158, as Joan P noted, that she does not intend to keep a journal on this trip, but “I can write everything up when I get back.”

So who is writing the narrative now?

Great point, Joan P!

Speaking of Salammbo, the most interesting thing! I was just in the Madame Bovary Proposed discussion where I saw to my complete amazement Justin talking about....SALAMBO! It appears he's just read the book by that name and was talking about it, I invited him in here, because apparently there are a lot of things called Salammbo! To wit:

A book by Flaubert, a musical, a town, a Marine station, Salammbo predictions of the storm-time electron ... , a poster from 1897, a “rare silent epic” film, a website (Cryo has launched the official Salammbo website, showcasing their upcoming adventure game based on Gustave Flaubert's novel and developed by the company, under the direction of artist Philippe Druillet), a school of realism (SALAMMBO. ... The school of realism of which Zola, Tolstoi, De Maupassant, Analysis of the Jovian Radiation Belts Using the Salammbo 3-D Results, a sculpture, and that was only a small part of only 11 pages on Google!!

It appears that everybody except me knows about Salammbo!

Including Margaret Drabble!

ginny

Candida wrapped the laptop up and hid it in the bottom of her wardrobe. Who is writing the narrative now? I am convinced that Candida is writing The Italian Journey.

Page 158. "We leave in two days' time. I have wondered whether or not to take this laptop with me and keep a record of our journey, but I don't think I will. It would be too much of a worry. I can write everything up when I get back."

I believe that is exactly what Candida did, and that what we're reading are her memories and impressions of the journey. That is why I am cautious about what I read here. We already know that Candida is an unreliable narrator, whether she is talking about herself or other people and events.

Mal

No, Ginny… not the only one who didn't know!! Oh, if Salammbo were the only thing here I didn’t know!!!

Look on 174… Mal mentioned Salammbo was the name of the airline… but LOOK… I didn’t notice “which made Mrs. Jerrold and Candida find disconcerting, though they do not say so.” Why disconcerting??

Did you notice the mention of the tapes, the ones Mrs. Jerrold loaned to Candida that she couldn’t understand, Mrs. Jerrold wonders if Candida reads poetry and then mentions the tape. Still doesn’t explain them…. “Mrs. Jerrold is a seer” Hasn’t she also been called the Sibyl? A classical scholar? A poet… She sees Candida floating in the dank water, like Ophelia. Mercy!!!

Lou

Ginny, I took the Alphonse Mucha painting you posted for future use in one of my publications. Found another Mucha painting of Salammbo, too! Mucha was a Czech artist who painted in the Art Nouveau style.

Just incidentally, Candida mentions British artist David Hockney when she is talking about her dentist. I have to check through and see if there are other references to artists, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Flaubert's Salammbo is the story of Hamilcar's daughter, Salammbo. It is a fictitious story that takes place in Carthage during the Punic wars. I bookmarked the book and have only glanced at it, but it looks pretty bloody and gory to me. Justin will tell us more, I hope.

Mal

Lou, try translating what Mrs. Jerrold said into Candida's thoughts as she writes about the Italian journey after she gets home. Candida heard nothing on the tapes, so of course could not write about what was on them.

Her mind is still full of death, especially the watery deaths of Jane and the Wormwood Scrubs prisoner's victim, thus sees herself as Ophelia and puts that into Mrs. Jerrold's mind.

Part Two of this book is quite different from what it appears if you look at it and think that it was Candida who wrote it. (See the quote in my Post 455.) I would suspect there's a good deal of fiction in it, too.

Mal

Yes, a number of us had mentioned existentialism early on but I wanted to see if that's what was happening in Seven Sisters and so I connected the dots, the clues in the text.

Ginny mentioned that wonderfully contradictory word "spendthrift" and it's used in Part 2 to describe Eugene Jerrold (243) which means extravagant and also wasteful.

In addition, there're passages in Part 2 that are flashing arrows about Jerrold and Ida's memory of Jerrold.

At the start of the sisters' storytelling, Ida "who does not often speak of Eugene" tells of how his wallet was stolen in Barcelona and Eugene apologized for the thiefs, he was too careless, and "there were too many tourists in Spain, it wasn't like that in the days of George Orwell, it was all the fault of General Franco....Oh innocent Eugene!" (227-

What's wrong with Ida's story? It implies that Orwell was a tourist in the good old days of Spain but in reality he went to Spain to fight against Franco in the Spanish Civil War. Orwell wrote of his experience in Homage to Catalonia which combined hope and despair about the human condition. Thinking about Orwell also reminds me of his essay appropriate to what's happening with the talk about Eugene Jerrold:

DOUBLESPEAK

The immediately following paragraphs were more flashing arrows and confirmed my suspicion. Ida Jerrold continues her storytelling of Eugene Jerrold:

"Nor should he have trusted that French philosopher at the wheel, French intellectuals have a bad driving record. They drive too fast, too showily, in powerful cars that they cannot control. Eugene should never have accepted that lift to Nimes....They had careened into a poplar tree at ninety miles an hour and both had died instantly. Or so it was said in the police report." / "Mrs Jerrold's eyes are sharp and bright but their lids are red and wrinkled. Sometimes she looks more like a tortoise than a bird." (228)

Stop! I know that French philosopher, Albert Camus, and he wasn't the driver. Camus, who'd been a member of the French Resistance in WWII and wasn't cowardly, was afraid of fast cars. Camus had actually bought a rail ticket but was persauded by a journalist to accept a lift from him instead.

From www.meta-religion.com, this extract on Camus' death:

"It seems almost fitting the Camus died at the pinnacle of his career as a writer. Camus died in a freak automobile accident...on 4 January, 1960. Curiously, Camus had once said there would be no death less meaningful than to die in an automobile accident. He disliked cars, especially driven at high speeds. He was not driving when he died. Among his papers was the novel "The First Man", a fictionalized account of his family history. The novel ws published in 1995, leading to renewed interest in Camus and his works. / What sets Camus apart from many existentialists and modern pilosophers in general is his acceptance of contraditions. Yes, Camus wrote, life is absurd and death renders it meaningless - for the individual. But mankind and its societies are larger than one person."

Eugene Jerrold is a fictional character as is Candida etc; he does not/did not exist; he never lived or died; but the clues are in the text to make us question the nature of a spendthrift, the truth, and Ida's feelings for Eugene Jerrold. What's being said in doublespeak?

More in my next post.

Marvelle

I am positive the walking skeletons of the sea urchins is a fancy also. I have eaten many sea urchins straight from the sea and I have yet to see one move after it is opened even with all its innards intact! They do taste delicious - like oyster mixed with cream. There is a correct season to gather them when the orange part is "fat" as the natives here would say. They are messy to eat and we used to open them in the transom of our boat and sit on the duckboard and enjoy.

Carolyn

As far as I can see, the biggest indication of Doublespeak (if I am interpreting it right) is Candida's writing in her diary, especially Part Two at this point.

The painting, Dido Building Carthage by British artist, Joseph Mallord William Turner is mentioned by Candida on Page 203. Anna Palumbo is writing a book about Swiss artist Paul Klee in the Kairouan.

Somebody said, I think, that Anna's last name means dove? Dove in Spanish is "paloma". In Portuguese it's "pombo, pomba". In Italian it's "piccione". It's "colombe" in French, isn't it? Anna is Italian?

Mal

Carolyn, you are the only person I ever met who had eaten sea urchins! They sound good!

Mal

Examples of Jerrold's character through doublespeak:

Candida writes of Ida's memory of Eugene Jerrold: "Her husband...died over twenty years ago....They first met, she said, when she was asked to read some of her poems for the BBC Third Programme. Mrs. Jerrold, it seems, was once a poet....Those, she said, had been happy days. Comradely, poverty-stricken, post-war beer-drinking days. Though she had never liked beer, said Mrs. Jerrold. She always preferred gin." (103)

Ida published a second volume of poetry and dedicated it to Eugene Jerrold. In the volume, Ida cast herself as Dido and Eugene as the deserting Aeneas. Yet Ida laughs off the volume's melancholia by saying "When I didn't know what sadness was, I could afford to be sad." (104) From this one can gather that the relationship wasn't ideal between Ida and Eugene. But then no relationship is, is it?

We get the impression that EJ was quite successful since the BBC Third Programme is mentioned a number of times. Ida mentions a specific Third Programme about the Aeneid and tries to find a copy for Candida but neither the National Sound Archives or the British Library knew of, or could find a copy of the broadcast.... Candida says she remembers the celebrated broadcasts. (105) And it is from the Third Programme that Ida Jerrold finally finds and gives to Candida the Aeneid broadcast but it's unintelligible. So why are Jerrold's participation in the celebrated Third Programmes so hard to find and why is the tape Ida produces unintelligible (what does that imply?) Here is surprising information, to me, about Jerrold's famous:

THIRD PROGRAMME

_________________________________________

Other clues in the text about Jerrold is found in the biography of Douglas Jerrold found in www.schoolnet.co.uk. Douglas Jerrold was a writer, editor, and social reformer. Among his writings are Fifteen Years of a Drunkard's Life"; as well as The Story of a Feather (1844) which first recorded the phrase "it takes all sorts to make a world." Anais has her own feather story of loaning money to a stranger, a woman in a feather hat expecting to be repaid and concludes by saying that "I had faith in that feather." (231) These are all connect the dots and any conclusion drawn from them is up to the individual; but they do connect. Drabble put them in the Seven Sisters.

__________________________________________

More Spendthrift

- "Ida Jerrold is thinking about health and wealth and the pursuit of happiness.....Eugene had put nothing away. He had taken early retirement from his job at the BBC...and then he had died suddenly, in that stupid accident....The BBC pension was pitiful." (192)

-- "Eugene had known such people [novelists, poets, dealers]even in the empty quarters of the world. It ws said that it two literature loving English-speaking people met in a bar in [far corners of the world] one of them would be Eugene Jerrold....I had to hide our money, nodded Mrs. Jerrold....He gave it away...always wanted to foot the bill. He liked the expansive gesture. He liked to play the host." (173)

-- "Eugene claimed he once had a drink with Hermann Broch..." (175) [Broch is the author of The Death of Virgil Ida's intended reading material which puts her to sleep]

-- Eugene Jerrold, the fervent host, has associated with some heavy drinkers. "How he loved them [the geniuses of his day], Wystan and Dylan and Louis and Stephen and Natasha and .... How the faces of the greater ones had lit up when Eugene entered a room! Eugene the comrade, ever welcome, ever accompanied by good humor, ever willing to stand his friends a pint. (213)

-- Ida thinks of Eugene Jerrold's looks "...bear of a man, shambling, untidy, myopic, affable, with a large round red-face..." (213)

Is this conscious criticism on Ida's part? A reluctant, half-hidden criticism in doublespeak? I think so whether she loved her husband or not and I think she loved him. The deserting, drunken Aeneas was also affable, generous, fun loving. She knew more sadness after his death than during his wandering days as Aeneas to her Dido.

Marvelle

Another artist mentioned is Francis Bacon in connection with writer James Pope-Hennessy who will later 'show up,' so to speak, in Seven Sisters.

Marvelle

Mal our urchins are delicious! We used to eat them with fresh baked bread when we were away on our boat. I love any sort of sea food apart from shrimps, prawns and lobster. I am allergic to these. Not many Europeans eat sea urchins but our natives love them. They are called Kina. The Maoris would always give me a share of their harvest as they were tickled pink a pakeha lady loved them as much as they did. My mouth is watering as I type this!

Carolyn

There is a very interesting article in the current New Yorker about George Orwell, "a man who believed that to write honestly he needed to publish under another name". In this article there are examples of Orwell's very own "Doublespeak" and how he practiced it. Click HERE to read The invention of George Orwell.

I also saw today a review of The Whistling Woman by A. S. Byatt. In it the book is described, among other things, as too long, "tedious", and "needing an editor". She apparently makes some literary cracks about her younger, half sister, Margaret Drabble, in this book. You know, as a reader I don't think it's necessary for writers to take their personal fights into what they write, especially writers like Byatt.

Mal

Carolyn...come back here! Please, will you take a look at this picture and tell me which kind you ate? I have been sitting here with mouth agape since reading your post! SEA URCHINS
Valeria seems to be testing the mettle of her ladies...and they seem to pass, unlike other English ladies she had had on her tours... Mal, you think they must taste delicious? The kind with the spikes? Carolyn, how do you get past the looks of the thing? Do you remember your first sea urchin? You don't remember seeing the shell walk away with its innards missing? Maybe you weren't looking at the discards? I don't think I'm up to par with you ladies...Valeria would be disappointed in me, I'm afraid.

Valeria seems a goddess, rather than the seventh sister, doesn't she? I was uncomfortable too when she hesitated to give out the three phone messages. She didn't want to disturb the complexion of the nicely blending group. She seems to want to call the shots, pull the strings...as a goddess is wont to do.

Am very interested in all the references to Seven Sisters...Marvelle, I appreciate the research you continue to shower down on us. Still not sure who are the seven...if we don't count Valeria. One of the links provided indicates that:

"With the naked eye only 6 of these 7 sister stars can be seen." Hmmm, maybe that's why I'm only counting six! It also said there are four very bright stars and three lesser stars. More conjecture on the bright ones...Candida Anais, Ida Jerrold and Cynthia? Unless you include Valeria in the number? Do you?

After having read ALL of your posts, I have to rethink my understanding of the identity of the omniscient narrator in this section. I was so sure reading it that it could not be Candida...but several of you think that it is all seen through her eyes...now I've got to go read it all over again!

Ginny, the glosses do tell the story, don't they? They continue, even though this section is not in diary form. I too was struck by the reference to finding "God" in the gloss. I am still thinking about the Sybil's response to her question. Isn't S. in the bottle for eternity because she did NOT submit. Is she warning Candida so that she does not get stuck in a time warp as she did? What's funny...of course...is that the "submit" is coming not from the Sybil, but the answer is coming from within Candida herself. To submit to life...to open her arms to those around her...or perhaps to risk? Not yet. Not yet. Candida is not ready just yet.

ps...Mal, yes, I think the "flat nun on a high ledge"is a red life buoy...though not deflated...it is small, erect...with a flat top, not the cone-shaped type you see in the ocean, but the sort you'd find on a ship in case of emergency...that's what Anna P. looked like, up on the top bunk. Small and erect...dressed in red. I'm wondering if she will reappear in an emergency situation, or is this word-picture as far as MD will take the metaphor?

Again, thank you all for the most informative posts! You've outdone yourselves!

We eat the purple spined sea urchin and yes I have seen the remains immediately after opening.

Carolyn

"With the naked eye only 6 of these 7 sister stars can be seen." Hmmm, maybe that's why I'm only counting six! It also said there are four very bright stars and three lesser stars. More conjecture on the bright ones...Candida Anais, Ida Jerrold and Cynthia? Unless you include Valeria in the number? Do you?

Joan, when you stop and think, who have we heard about through this whole book so far? It just hit my mind... Sibly... could she be the seventh sister???? Candida seems to keep hearing from her... thinking about her... and she'd be really hard to see, right????

Lou

Candida seems to think Valeria is the 7th, "We'll be seven, anyway, if you include the driver." (page 157).

Back anon, struggling with something one of the characters said, have to get my own ducks in a row before exposing them to the world, hahahaha

LOTS to talk about in this section.

In the Cafe scenes starting on page 227 of the hardback, each of the characters feels expansive and shares something of their lives, some of you have already touched on a couple of them, Marvelle on Mrs. Jerrold, they are all revealing things about themselves.

I am wondering today what the effect of this sharing has been, why it's introduced and what the stories EACH of them tell has to do with anything, do any of you see a connection?

"Their stories intertwine and wreathe and weave themselves together." (page 231).

Is any of this significant?

ginny

That sounds good, Lou, but why, then, would the gloss on Page 194 say:

"The seven sisters see the sights"

I think Valeria was a very good tour guide, caring for the needs of her group. I can see why she wouldn't want to spoil their happy time by telling them immediately about the phone calls. Remember, if Candida is writing The Italian Journey, it is she that put the "They are past the age for good news" sentence into Valeria's mind.

I think when the Sibyl said to Candida, "Be still. Submit. You can climb no higher. This is the last height. Submit" that the word "submit" means submit to death. If the Sibyl had not refused Apollo, she'd have grown old and died. Candida has decided she's not ready to die. After all, her lover or her God is waiting on that far distant shore, and she hasn't crossed over to it yet.

There's more I want to say, but I must check the posts first. I'll be back!

Mal

I think what's common in the stories these women tell is that they are about taking risks. Anais says an interesting thing:

"I remember thinking, I don't want to be like them. I want to be like me, even if I'm wrong and lose my last penny to a stranger."

And later:

"Candida listens, and thinks she has not taken enough risks in her life. She has been too cautious, always. Even Sally has at times been braver than she."

Mal

Lou and Joan, check out my post #451. Candida is not the brightest star but the dimmest, named Merope; dimmest because Merope married a mortal, Sisyphus, rather than a god. Please see my thoughts on this and let me know your interpretation. Merope=Sisyphus to me means Candida=Existentialism. Candida is the only one of the 7 sisters who is in true existential despair about the human condition? She moves between that despair and hope? A what's it all about, have I wasted my life, is life worth it all, what do I do etc etc....that sort of thinking.

Also note in post #451 that Meropia is a medical condition of partial blindness and what I see in that. Please correct those thoughts or refine or add to them...what we all share as participants helps me in understanding this novel.

Joan, you beat me to the flat nun! I'd gleaned a lot of info from various google sites and came to post it but you'd identified it already. Still I'll add what I found but a true sailor, whch is definitely not me, could be clearer about buoys:

"She is perched like a flat nun on a high ledge." (219) This refers to Anna Palumbo in the ship's bunk, the long red nightshirt "primly and discretely buttoned" up to her pale face with pointed chin and capped by dark hair.

A buoy is a metal can anchored and floating in the water as a navigational aid that identify hazards. Sailors keep a sharp lookout for buoys to help them guide a safe course.

Buoys are different colors depending on their function. A nun buoy is red. A flat nun buoy has a flat rather than pointed or round top. These buoys were called nuns due to the original physical shape of the buoy that resembled a nun's habit (headwear).

Buoys mark channels, indicate locations of rocks and other obstructions and prohibited areas in the water. A nun buoy can be connected by rope to a ship's anchor as the anchor lies underwater. In case a ship slips its anchor during a storm, the buoy identifies the anchor's location.

Anna as the flat nun would be a young girl just starting out which is a reminder to the sisters of their origins when they slipped anchor to head into life -- when they were young and so was the world; and they'd also be cautious in what they say around and to this young girl. The high ledge would be a caution to shallow waters which I think means Anna's limited experience/knowledge of life as a woman. And then think of the implications of names! The noviate nun and the older, experienced Sisters.

The internet was sloooooow connecting today and it's been slow moving from screen to screen within SN, so frustrating, but I'll try later today to read new posts and to post myself.

Marvelle

Interesting ideas, Marvelle.

Joan was responding to this message I posted. (Post 423, posted on Monday)

"Flat nun could refer to a nun buoy. Buoys are usually red, aren't they? Anna Palumbo was wearing a red nightshirt. Flat nun is also a German term, and I don't know what it means."

I'm sure you don't intend it, but you make me feel redundant or invisible here. You go, girl, while I quietly disappear for a while.

Mal

Seque of the Day
"...great pink mottled and suckered arms of octopus, as thick as the snakes that wrestled with Laocoon before the fall of Troy." (page 236-237.)

I am not sure, as I said earlier, what Drabble means in this section with all these classical allusions, it’s a smorgasbord of them, for sure.

It’s fun and they may not have any meaning in this section at all, tho I am pausing to note that in the glosses three of the glosses directly refer to the Aeneid and seem to make the parallel of his voyage, did you catch that? Maybe that’s feyness on Drabble’s part, maybe not.

At any rate,

Laocoon: Click to enlarge!

and this splendid detail:

Laocoon detail: Click to enlarge!

Are worth taking a side step.

Ancient Rome says of this statue:

According to Roman historian Pliny the Elder, the famous marble group of Laocoon decorated Titus’s palace. This was an original Hellenistic Greek work, attributed to the sculptors Agesandrus, Polydorus and Athanadorus of Rhodes. It perhaps originally stood in a monumental building at Pergamum, and was important to Rome after the kingdom of Attalus became a Roman province.

Hailed by Pliny as a masterpiece, the great figured complex, which illustrates the myth of the Trojan priest punished by Athene, demonstrates the great success that Greek statuary encountered in the Roman world during the 2nd century BC. Copies of Greek originals were very popular in the Imperial age, and many Hellenic sculptors moved to Rome (page 109)
This sculpture is now in the Vatican in Rome.

The story of Laocoon is a poignant one. Bulfinch reveals on page 185 of his Mythology that

when the Trojans joyfully threw open the gates of the city to drag in the Trojan Horse, ( Bulfinch is marvelous in this section, highly recommended) “Some recommended to take it into the city as a trophy; others felt afraid of it.

While they hesitate, Laococon, the priest of Neptune, exclaims, “What madness, citizens, is this? Have you not learned enough of Grecian fraud to be on your guard against it? For my part, I fear the Greeks even when they offer gifts.” So saying he threw his lance at the horse’s side. It struck, and a hollow sound reverberated like a groan (you really have to read the rest of this it’s too long to fit here)….But while the populace was pondering, [there appeared one who appeared to be a prisoner and a Greek, who spoke them of the horse…}

This language turned the tide of the people’s feelings, and they began to think how they might best secure the monstrous horse and the favorable auguries connected with it, when suddenly a prodigy occurred which left no room to doubt. There appeared, advancing over the sea, two immense serpents. They came upon land, and the crowd fled in all directions. The serpents advanced directly to the spot where Laocoon stood with his two sons. They first attacked the children, winding round their bodies and breathing their pestilential breath in their faces. The father, attempting to rescue them is next seized and involved in the serpents’ coils. He struggles to tear them away, but they overpower all his efforts and strangle him and the children in their poisonous folds. This event was regarded as a clear indication of the displeasure of the gods at Laocoon’s irreverent treatment of the wooden horse, which they no longer hesitated to regard as a sacred object and to draw into the city. (page 186)

Byron wrote of Laocoon in his “ Childe Harold,” and so did Swift,

I thought the serpents dragged Laocoon and his children into the sea and that was another drowning, but aparentlynot so! Or not so in Bulfinch, anyway.

Cassandra, if I recall also spoke against the horse but for that lost her gift of prophesy and was never believed again.

I’m not sure any of this has any bearing on the story, but I thought some of you who might not, possibly, be familiar with Laocoon, might find it interesting.

Between Lou’s identifying the "Put out to Sea" Quote and the information on the flat nun from several of you, and the sea urchin stuff, and the Salammbo references, I myself have learned a great deal from reading this book, and I hope some of you feel the same.

Back later on, still struggling, isn’t the detail of the Laocoon statue magnificent?

ginny

"They will be a diminished, possibly a dispirited band." (page 241)

Before I get to all the super points you have raised, I'd like to see if my own thinking on Candida and this group of "pilgrims," as this Third Person Omniscient Narrator calls them, is in line with what you all think or not?

In the first part of the book (and I have not read to the end so I don't know what's coming) Candida was writing a journal, which allows the writer to explore her inmost thoughts, which she did.

We disagreed on whether or not she felt lonely but I think this section with the "new" or possibly not, narrator, seems to indicate she was nearly dying of loneliness. She bonds immediately with the group, feels sorry in her new kinship with Anna Palumbo, traveling alone, says she would not want to travel that way, and feels, when the phone calls come, that the loss of Cynthia might make for a different experience.

All of the pilgrims share something of their lives, and Anais's sharing seems to concern "her own tale of trust and risk." (page 228). So the group appears, I guess, to be bonding, and are supportive of each other, to some extent.

If these are pilgrims, all, what do they seek? (I know a couple of you have taken a good stab at this but we've not heard from everyone, it strikes me anew in this part)

We know what Candida wants of this trip.

Julia SAID she wanted to work it into a story line: research.

What does Anais want? What does Cynthia want?

What does Mrs. Jerrold want? She seems the only one with any common sense, she’s more Sibyl like than any of them. I was struck when they first got to town and all had different options to explore she was the one who organized the study group, somehow I liked that, and somehow I think it VERY improbable with this group.

What does Sally want? To be accepted?

To me Cynthia is the weakest of the pilgrims, in fact, none of the supporting characters are particularly fleshed out well, or do you think they are? Mrs. Jerrold, I suppose, of the supporting cast seems the most substantive, what do you think?

“Has Mr. Barclay made a will, and if so, has he left anything or everything to Cynthia? They do not speak of this, for they are nice ladies. Some of them do not even think of it.” (page 243)

WHO is this Narrator who knows what people think?

I am not sure how Candida, if she IS the Narrator here, would have known the inmost thoughts of all these people. If it turns out at the end that she IS the Narrator of this part, I think we would have to look askance at every POV reported in it, and everything else in it, whatever Candida’s strengths are, she’s no Sibyl herself. It makes for fascinating conjecture. It would almost be a play within a play perhaps, or an entire exercise thru Candida Wilton's Gates of Ivory, just a fantasy of the mind, who knows? I'm not sure, it's fun to contemplate, tho. And I guess in a few days we'll know. I hope we'll know.

I am thinking that when Candida asked the Sibyl she was NOT in the cave, is that right? She was sitting in the sun? And once she hears what she came to hear, why does she refuse it?

What do you make of that last part of page 247?

ginny

You’ve all made such wonderful points, thank you!

Viogert, I liked your thought “she looked forward to the Sibyl in herself,” I love that! Thanks.

So you see her refusal to “submit” as her refusal to resign herself to being old at 60, well high time, good for her.

Thank you Malryn for the link on Hamilcar Barca, I note he died by drowning, did any of you catch that? Another drowning, almost as if Drabble has used google for search on famous drownings, and for your take on what they all seek.

An interesting point on the pilgrims in this discussion and the pilgrims in the book, any comparison, is that what we are here?

Lou, I thought a long time about your use of the word “seek” and “dismissal” I thought Candida was feeling much better, too, she says in one part she has been so “blessed “ in her life!

Is Candida what we think of as a "Seeker?"

Marvelle, I wondered where that “far shore” thing came from, thanks,

Great point on the Seventh Appearance!

So you see the gloss as cliffhanger to keep us interested, I did not even see them. Ahahahaha Maybe that’s what’s wrong with me and the book!

Ahahahah

This is intersesting:

“Camus (1913-1960) wrote that "If there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life."

Thanks for that! We appreciate all this extra research through which we learn so much!

Lou, I did notice this: Mrs. Jerrold wonders if Candida reads poetry and then mentions the tape., it seems that something WAS on the tape, but we don’t know what. The famous Third Programme which Marvelle’s link shows to be a detriment to the BBC? Interesting.

Glad you liked the Mucha poster, Malryn.

Marvelle, thank you for the doublespeak and Orwell background, (and yours also on the Orwell link, Malryn) I kept wondering why the LONG exegesis on Eugene, the others have not had as much, could not figure out WHY that is in the story! When she starts on the Eugene stuff I want to say, what? Why? I don’t believe this. NOBODY is as popular and wonderful as Eugene was.

(What makes you think the “French philosopher” was Camus, Marvelle? Either way, I loved hearing the information about Camus dying in an auto wreck (not that he died but the background information) and Orwell, love that sort of thing, thank you!)

Good point on Eugene as Aeneas and Mrs. Jerrold as Dido, Dido killed herself over Aeneas, right?

WONDERFUL research on the famous Third Programme, and guess who again?? Albert Camus! Hahahaha Small world, huh? hahaahaha

You don’t suppose Eugene drowned, do you ? I don’t recall what happened to Mr. Eugene because every time Ida brings him up I tune out, it’s awful but true. Something’s not right there, do you all recall (I refuse to look it back up, talk about the Gate of Ivory) what was the “stupid accident” which took him away?

Joan P, I think S is in a bottle because she was not smart enough to figure out the consequences of her asking/ seeking something.

Hmm, wonder if that can apply to this thing?

Lou an interesting point about possibly the Sibyl being the Seventh Sister, I like that. She only speaks to Candida so far tho, why did the others not go out there? Surely they aren’t so broken up about Cynthia’s husband they would not do that trip?

Carolyn, I found a site also (thank you for that site, Joan P on the sea urchin) on cooking them and it says the shells are opened when they are alive and they are often eaten alive, that about did it for me. I think you are right on the scuttling thing, what’s left to scuttle?

You know it’s funny, I don’t eat lobster, can’t, not the way they’re cooked, and now there’s something obscene about the microwave and the lobster, just read it, can’t do it. My husband won’t eat veal, for similar reasons. I can see that sea urchin is not going on my list. But the awful thing is I LOVE crab, just love it, and am so ignorant I did not realize they, too, are boiled like lobsters? Tell me in my old age that is not so! (is it?)

Never too old to learn, jeepers.

WHEEEEEEEEE I’m caught up, hope I have not missed anybody, many thanks, EVERYBODY for the flat nun information, never heard of it!

Look what all we’re learning here in this simple story about a divorcee trying to get on with her life? I have to commend Viogert again for bringing it to our attention, who KNEW all this was there?

And WHAT did Camus mean??Camus (1913-1960) wrote that "If there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life."

Put down those dreams, Dreamers!!??!!

Tisi-phus

There are a couple of places that mention Eugene's death and Candida writes "It is true that he died in a car crash in France." (103) Candida says she checked the obits. Ida remembers his death in the car crash with the French philosopher (top of 228). I think the French philosopher was Camus because : first his name is dropped into the text (and no, I don't have the page nr), then Ida says that Eugene and a French philosopher died in a car crash. The important thing I see is that Ida cannot face her husband's failings directly. Instead of being a drunkard with the red-face, he just loves to meet people in bars for literary talk and to play the host by buying the drinks. Here in the accident, Ida's memory puts the French philosopher in the driver's seat so Eugene doesn't get blamed as the heedless driver whose spendthrift driving cost his life and that of his passenger the philosopher.

There were 2 separate and very real auto accidents involving the death of a French philosopher around the time fictional Eugene died. Both philosophers were existentialists, according to obits I checked, in one accident the people who were killed were the philosopher and a girlfriend; and the second accident involved the death of Camus and the journalist/editor.

I believe that the French philosopher in Seven Sisters is Camus' because of the namedropping and the fact that his 'meaningless' death in a car crash is quite a well known event in the history of existentialism.

Marvelle

P.S. You may disagree about the specific identity of the philosopher, and that is okay, but he is positively an existentialist. Remember the first page of the novel and the reason for writing what the narrator calls a diary? She has a feeling of nothingness and yet "there is something important about this nothingness. It should represent a lack of hope, and yet I thing that, somewhere, hope may yet be with me." (3) Nothingness is a keyword in Existenialist philosophy as is the idea that there is hope in nothingness.

Ginny: “All the pilgrims share something of their lives” (page 228)… Except Candida…She says nothing!! Notice that???

“If they are pilgrims, all, what do they seek?” “We know what Candida wants of this trip.” Remind me… What does she want??? Notice the seek there… ??? So the Gloss page 244… “She seeks for the Sibly and waits for her dismissal”………. Is Candida what we think of as a “Seeker”….. I noticed another dismissal today… judge dismissed a case…. Can you see how all that is circling in my mind?

Eugene was in a car accident with a philosopher—Camus? (Marvelle)…

Every post I see I have more questions!!! So I’m re-reading… again!

Look at Valeria (page 185)… Joan, I can almost agree with you she is a goddess. At least I don’t believe she’s been totally honest with our pilgrims, or maybe I mean to say, there’s lots she hasn’t told them.….

Marvelle, I’m trying!! I’ve read and re-read your posts and they are fascinating…

Excuse me, where do I apply for graduate credit? This discussion gives me a brain ache! I have to say I’ve learned more here than in many of my graduate classes!!

I think all of the pilgrims apart from Mrs Jerrold are seeking a rebirth. They are hoping after this journey they will have gained something new within themselves. Mrs Jerrold is waiting for her life to end she is the stoic amongst them. I am not sure what each pilgrim is seeking but feel strongly they are seeking something.

Carolyn

Dr. Lou, I think SN should dispense Ph.D certificates to us all at the end of this discussion. I'm not leading, Lou, and I'm not even sure where I'm heading with this book. Sometimes my ideas are right and sometimes not but I learned at a late age not to be afraid to be wrong.

I see all these allusions and am searching for the thread that binds them. You may see something else that interests you in the book. Goodness knows, there's a variety of threads -- relationships, conversations, imagery etc -- to pick from. Between all of us, we're gathering up ideas about Seven Sisters.

My brain aches too. There's an extraordinary number of allusions; they're really laid on thick and I wonder why? I guess the allusions are no more than found in Joyce's Ulysses? Virginia Woolf's Diary is the inspiration for Part 1 and Goethe's Italian Journey inspires Part 2 and each have a different POV. And so many many other influences just within these 2 parts!

I like this sentence which I find funny yet telling:

"They drove beneath a triumphal arch, which a gang of youthful Pozzuoli artists is busy spraying with elaborate graffiti, while studiously and conscientiously consulting a large cardboard graffiti-design template." (237)

Marvelle

Jean-Michel Basquiat was one of those graffiti artists. Whether he took a cartoon of what he was going to do on the walls of buildings in New York with him when he went out to do his artwork, I do not know. It's not uncommon, though. Too bad Basquiat died so young. His was a unique talent.

What if each one these women went on this journey just to have a good time with the others? Candida is trying not to drown herself and end her pain via the suicide route. This trip with her friends is a step in the right direction.

Because I believe Candida wrote Part Two from memory and imagination after she went back to London, I think it is packed with fiction and lies. With Candida as narrator, there's no way of knowing if Eugene Jerrold was killed when he was in a car with a philosopher or with a garbage man, is there? All we really know is that he's dead. "Accounts differ as to the manner in which Goethe (Jerrold?) died." (213)

Ginny, crabs are cooked live just as lobsters are. Seafood cooked dead can often make one sick. Ever eaten live oysters on the half shell? Quite a delicacy. I wish I had crabs and oysters -- and especially lobster -- right now.

Mal

It was in Part 1 that Candida said she verified the death of Eugene in a car crash.

Beer-guzzling Eugene was not a creative artist, unlike Goethe. Ida was musing about her own approaching death, being the eldest of the pilgrims, and she muses:

"She hopes she will comport herself properly and not be a nuisance to others when the moment comes. Accounts differ as to the manner in which Goethe met his death. The legend that he cried out 'More light!' has been queried .... His doctor...claimed he died in great pain, visible fear and mortal agitation. So what avails a lifetime of searching after wholeness and greatness and transcendence? Perhaps Eugene had the better part, cut off suddenly in his prime?" (213)

Note the clear separation between the death of the Great Goethe and the death of Eugene. Ida is not confusing the two men.

Did you see the New Yorker's graffiti, Mal -- Basquiat? It made an impression on you so he must have been good.

Marvelle

Marvelle, I'm not comparing or linking Goethe and Jerrold. I'm simply saying that Candida Wilton is a very, very unreliable narrator.

If I saw Basquiat's wall art in New York City, I didn't know it was by him. Basquiat was born of immigrant parents in 1960. His father was born in Port au Prince, Haiti. He met Al Diaz, and together they did building wall graffiti art as SAMO. Basquiat was picked up by galleries and his artwork became very well known, especially after he became involved with Andy Warhol. Basquiat died of a heroin overdose in 1988. His graffiti art paintings are very valuable now. Click the link below to see two of them.

BASQUIAT

Nice link, Mal. A good example to use when asking 'what is art?'

In Seven Sisters, Drabble is not saying 'look at the graffiti' but is using the scene as a metaphor for something else which is an important theme, I believe. The narrator writes:

"They drive beneath a huge, triumphal arch, which a gang of youthful Pozzuoli artists is busy spraying with elaborate graffiti, while studiously and conscientiously consulting a large cardboard graffiti-design template." (237)

I was intrigued by this sentence because it could be a concise metaphor for (Drabble's?) literary theory. FR Leavis developed a literary theory called the "Great Tradition" which Drabble partly accepts and partly rejects. The Great Tradition has three main points:

-- great writers follow some form of historical structure

-- great writers cast his/her own uniqueness over the historical structure, thus creating a unique version of the historical; they evolve from the tradition

-- the great writers are limited to Jane Austen, George Eliot, Henry James, Joseph Conrad, and D.H. Lawrence

For more information see FR LEAVIS

Drabble studied under Leavis, among others, and disagrees with the limited scope of his "Great Tradition." While she believes in building on and varying historical structures -- like the triumphal arch -- she felt, and still feels, there are other great writers besides the 5 Leavis choose. Leavis selected in his canon those writers whose star had risen in his time and place.

I see literary theory and arguments (GEL and Laocoon, Tisi?) running through Drabble's novel.

The triumphal arch might fall under Leavis' Idea of Retroactivity: the idea that present day art can give life to past works. Aren't we giving life to past works while trying to untangle the allusions and their meanings?

I think literary theory and the various concerns of writing itself are a large part of Seven Sisters. But I'm saying 'I think' and not 'I know' in this post. Still, there is, somewhere, a purpose and a pattern behind all the allusions.

Marvelle

You do come up with some unusual ideas, Marvelle, and your hypothesis about Drabble and literary theories and arguments could well be right. A plain, dumb reader like me thinks that doesn't make much of any difference here in this story. What I see in that sentence you quoted is the difference between what's old and what's new and the combining of both when the boys paint graffiti on the ancient triumphal arch. I see that combination throughout the book. Candida's moving from traditional Suffolk to Ladbroke Grove is a good example, as are certain changes in her.

This combination is part of what critics see in Basquiat's art. Under all his contemporary dribblings, dabbings and the scribbling of protests in his art, there is a current of ancient primitive Haitian themes. It's rather surprising, too, since Basquiat was born in Brooklyn and lived most of his life in The City, New York. The acronym he and Diaz used -- SAMO -- means "same old shit". Those two kids were smarter than they knew.

What interests me about Seven Sisters is the unique way Margaret Drabble wrote it. It's an ingenious device I don't remember seeing before, and one that certainly can confuse a reader.

I have the distinct impression that her throwing in so many different kinds of allusions was a method she used to blind the reader to what's actually going on. It's my feeling that she's playing games in this book to suck a gullible reader on to tangents which have little to do with what she's really doing and saying. I don't have the background or education to know, however, and my vantage point is certainly different from yours. That's what makes a discussion interesting, isn't it?

Mal

Ah "It's my feeling that she's playing games in this book " interesting, if you go back and read my very first posts I said I had the feeling the reader was being toyed with or words to that effect, and I have read one page into the next section and I can see why you all are silent, an unusual device indeed, can't wait till we get there to decide for ourselves how effective it's been, and I hate to say it but the word conceit is beginning to shriek in my ears, but Ill wait till the bitter end to read it, more anon, meanwhile back to your posts and the points you're making.

more in a minute on your posts

Tisi phus

Tisi... and if you read the Camus link... at least he had some rest and satisfaction at the top of the hill and on his way down!!! LOL

Lou

I don't think we have to say "it's my feeling" about Drabble's games. We've had proof of her games in Part 1 and 2. We can say with confidence that "Drabble's playing games" but she's also serious about literature and her writing.

Dr. Tisi-phus, so glad you peeked into the future, pages that is. It's so hard to be quiet or pretend ignorance or mislead people about the book -- but we've been trying to not spoil things.

Drabble is playing games but she's serious about literature and her writing.

Marvelle

Although I'm champing at the bit here, I can't make hints or conclusions about the Seven Sisters now but I'm glad, Tisi-phus, that you see how good we've been, those of us who've finished the book. I hope you understand why I've held back on some discussion questions? Before I express my honest opinion about the book, we need to be at the same point, the ending of the novel; and of course what other people see in the text may change how I currently view Seven Sisters.

Marvelle

Perhaps the sole purpose of this book is to thumb Drabbles nose at her sister. "See I am just as clever as you are!" Hence all the styles, the allusions, and the Classic Thread. In some ways all these tricks detract from the real plot! If the book had been written without all of these it still would have been a very good piece of literature.

Carolyn

Thumbing her nose at her sister I see as a definite part of the novel but for the rest....? I can't give my opinion now which may change during the discussion and when others haven't finished reading the book. There's two parts remaining to read and discuss. Will love to hear the reactions as we enter Part 3 and then Part 4!

Marvelle

We've had a request and I think it's a good one, to divide the last part up and to look at Part III for a day or so separately from Part IV? I like that suggestion and suggest we look closely at Part III on January 25, 26, and 27, leaving January 28, 29, 30, and 31 for Part IV and any concluding remarks, what do you all think? I like it.

I haven't looked beyond the next page but had a lovely phone conversation with our Pearson (Joan P) in which I bet her about my own conclusions as to what happened, just the best experience, even getting to BET what happens next, like a cliff hanger or a serial movie...just the best!!

I can't bet with you guys you've all read it! (or have you? Are there any others of us out there who would like to take a wild stab at conclusions as to what happened? Email me, I've got a doozy of a theory!)

I can't wait till Saturday, just two more days! To read and find out, YAY, this IS fun, the reading in parts, it's been a long time since I've done it. We together are all JUST like one giant pulsating brain and just like your own brain is when you read, full of speculation and wonder.

I have enjoyed this procedure, very much and nobody can say we've not looked closely; however, we've not addressed every question in the heading, and do you have any of your own to add on this part?

More on your posts,

Tisi-phus

Yes, you all have been really super about holding back and I know it must not have been easy if the first page in Part III is any indication, so we appreciate it.

The Jury's still out with me and I think our very careful look will stand us in good stead in a few days.

Oh Camus and Hell and Sisyphus, I have to....I will have to know MORE about Camus before I can get used to Happy Sisyphus, I mean really, did he have a take on the Gluttons in Dante too? Hard to get past the Gluttony level (where I normally would pause anyway) hahahaahah

Anyway I don't know enough (read: SQUAT) about Camus to Comment. hahaahaha But I'm enjoying all the information anyway. I especially appreciate the existentialist "nothingness," Marvelle, thank you for bringing our attention to that.

Malryn, thank you for the link to the graffiti artist, and no I have not eaten raw oysters and don’t intend to, I figure if I don’t eat things raw when it’s my turn I may not be eaten, but you never know) and thanks, Marvelle, for the quote on the graffiti template and the triumphal arch. Here again is where one of us is gasping in shock over anybody doing anything to a triumphal arch, so really this urge people have to put their mark on the things of antiquity, you can be on the

Pont du Gard (click to enlarge)

in France, up close

Pont du Gard up close (click to enlarge)

one of the most fabulous things you’ll ever see, here’s a shot, and here people have carved their own initials in it, disgusting.

(I realize this is quite the seque, just to see if anybody is actually looking? hahahaha)

Thank you for bringing The Great Tradition to our attention, Marvelle. Another thing I had not heard of, how will it all end up? Will everything click and weave into that tapestry or will it all fall apart, what was it Edward VIII’s brother said? Or the…I can’t remember! Or the fabric may give way at the strain?

We shall seee!!!!

Carolyn, an interesting observation, I like this:

In some ways all these tricks detract from the real plot!

In two days we’re going to LOOK at the real plot away from all the subterfuge and see for ourselves, I can’t wait, I think perhaps if I read this alone I would not have had this reaction, either!

And now as old Frank Sinatra used to sing, the end is near and so I face my final curtain, where are the rest of our intrepid travelers? I hope we haven’t lost any of you by the way side here on our journey??

I wonder if the Procul Procul quote is more prophetic than they thought!

If there’s one incongruous line in the whole section here it’s this one “…how blessed she has been in her life!” (page 214)

She’s standing on a ship putting out to sea, “Candida is transfixed by the metaphor of release, of departure. She watches the shifting line of the shore, the swelling of the horizon, and her heart is ready to break with joy. How blessed she has been in her life!”

I am confused by this. Does THIS represent a turning point in her emergence from her chrysalis? Is this it? Is it time to speak of plot and climax and denouement? Or is her visit to the Sibyl cave the climax or can we not know?

At this point I don’t know, because I don’t know what happens.

Two more DAYS!!

WHAT have we not said we need to say about the book so far??

Tisi-phus

I looked today for info on Simone Weil (I'm the only one who didn't know who she was???), Tanit, Hegel And Eugene's quote from Goethe page 213... tried to figure out who the "Mayoral quartet" on the ferry were.. looked at Tosca and The Merry Widows to "intertwine" their stories, page 230... Learned more, none of it seemed to make a difference to this Italian Journey or indeed Seven Sisters... What a book!

Lou

I do think as Candida stands on the ship gazing around her she realises she has reached the light at the end of the tunnel. She has done her grieving about her unsuccessful marriage and she is feeling happy for the first time for a very long period of time. I experienced the same thing when I realised I was happy on Christmas day for the first time for seven years. It was wonderful! I had begun to think I would not ever be happy again. I can feel Candida's sudden joy!

Carolyn

Kiwi Carolyn, Good for you, You Go Girl!! Let's hope it lasts for Candida... She just seems to me to be up one minute and down the next. I mean, more that most of us. page 245... "Candida thinks she cannot take any more disappointment." Drabble does a job on us, doesn't she?

Lou

Tisi-phus, I like the suggestion of separating the discussion for Part 3 and Part 4. About the climax to Part 2 -- I think the ship monologue you mentioned was the climax and the following Sibyl scene would be the anti-climax? Which is what I think we had in Part One as well.

What strikes me about the incongruous passage you mentioned "How blessed she has been in her life" (214) is that it ends with "She is too happy now to think of death." Yikes! Camus Camus Camus. When he was killed in that car crash, they found in the car's trunk Camus' last unpublished manuscript in rough draft form, which was published a few years, titled A Happy Death. So the entire passage was Sisyphus?

_______________________________________

Lou, I think you're on to something with the storytelling. I hadn't really looked before but now I wonder if that is the purpose of the women accompanying Candida on the trip all -- the strengthening of Candida in her existential search -- and they are the supporting Greek Chorus? (And whether these women are actually a figment of the narrator's imagination or an actual part of Candida's life doesn't worry me much.) Perhaps too that's why they disbanded? Candida had been coached past her crises of communication (telephone call) and with Cynthia leaving -- like the Pleiades isn't it, that at a certain time of the year one Sister hides behind the Moon or Venus, whichever it was, and the rest of the Sister Stars follow?)

Anyway I'm wondering if each story has a message that is directed at Candida? (The old fashioned word 'storytelling' actually implies a teaching story). So, I'd like to take a stab at the message of each story and hope others will too and perhaps together we'll see what the storytelling means?

___________________________________________

We know the stories are about trust and risk. In the middle of the storytelling, "Anais is moved to tell her own story of trust and risk." (228)

The stories in the order told:

-- #1 Ida Jerrold: Eugene was gullible and never considered the possible consequences; spendthrift that he is, he blindly trusts

-- #2 Cynthia Barclay: Mr. Barclay trusted not because he was gullible but because he liked danger

-- #3 Anais: she loans money to a crying stranger with a feather in her hat, because she chose to believe the woman's sad story. (Tosca, the heroine of the opera, lived completely for her art and for love and wonders why bad things happen to her because after all she does give generously to the poor which makes up for the other parts of her life, she believes. Tosca trusts an admirer to not kill her lover if she gives herself to the admirer. She trusted unwisely.) Anais considered the risk and decided she could accept the consequences if negative; but Anais regrets not attending the opera performance to continue the adventure and Ida says she should have gone

-- #4 Julia: she trusts a man named Arnold -- whom she met on a train & who was a (boring!) manufacturer of egg boxes -- to tie her up in a hotel room and read from an "exciting naughty book." This was a calculated risk? with a seemingly inoccuous man?

-- #5 Sally: she mentions the drunken BBC announcer and The Merry Widow (MW), the operetta. The MW is about a rich widow with experience who says in the beginning that "We widows, oh, we are desired! .. only if we are rich unfortunate widows ... money doubles our worth" and she flees from romance of the fortune hunters. She eventually succumbs to, which means trust, one of the fortune hunters, a dedicated Casanova, who'd fallen in love with her despite himself. And she risks loving him.

-- #6 Valeria: she has her own crisis of trust and risk. She gets telephone messages for Julia, Cynthia, and Candida and she is afraid to tell them for fear of the risk of disrupting the harmony they'd achieved. Her doubt flows over even into the van which she has trouble starting (like the trouble she has making up her mind to trust the women with the messages.) Instead of a public announcement, she tells each woman individually after they'd rested. Valeria eventually chooses to trust in the strength of the women; but each of the three women respond differently to that trust which is the risk consequence? Candida is the most fearful and she procrastinates and needs to be helpfully prodded by the others. I think with Valeria, the trust was the eventual letting go of the decision-making and allowing the women their own responsibility; of admitting that the other women could be or should be trusted with potentially bad news and the unexpected? That was the struggle with her.

Candida of course did not enter into the storytelling because she felt she hadn't any adventures of risk and trust. So there are my thoughts, splayed out in stream of consciousness as they are, and perhaps someone can see a pattern to the stories or make corrections or additions?

Marvelle

Carolyn, thank you for the wonderful Christmas story. I'm touched and so glad that you found a way to be happy again.

Marvelle

Candida had risked, hadn’t she? She trusted Andrew and we all know how that turned out. She risked her friendships when she invited Sally on the trip.. both that Sally would behave in a manner acceptable to the Virgil group and that they would accept Sally… kind of a double barrel there… Could we say that she risk her dreams when she actually went on her trip? Sometimes anticipation is the best part of a trip…. One risk she didn’t take was the English teacher page 137… Wonder if that was a road better not taken??? Think she has regrets for not going down it???? Those are the ones I can think of.....

I'm having trouble linking the others' stories into message(s) for CW.. anxious to see if anyone else can...

Lou

Lou, it seems to me that C. is taking risks now...but is realizing that she has led a very narrow, risk-free existance until now. I thought she was finding herself and had renewed confidence, but notice how she quivered and quailed at returning the call to Ellen? Said she couldn't do it without the Sisters? Yes, it seems that all the stories deal with risk...or at least regrets for not having risked more. But Candida is saying nothing because she feels she has risked nothing. Personally, I think she risked everything by marrying Andrew. Wonder why she married him. Bet she was afraid, but took the risk.

The influence of the past on the story is great...the immediate past...and Virgil's too. Do we have to look at the Aenead (and all of the other references) to understand just what is going on with Candida? Is MD using the references as clues to the explanation, rather than playing games with the reader to distract? I think so. I think the effort to untangle the messages is well spent...even if we still come up with unanswered questions. Perhaps more clues in the upcoming pages will become apparent as we now have antennae out for them?

Candida still doesn't know herself, does she? Do you get the feeling you are listening to a discription of two different people? Or of a split personality? One moment, she is feeling happy and blessed, never in her life so delighted and calm and the next she's the "pale, sad Candida"...looking "dim and miserable - the dimmest of stars." So who is she?

This trip is the trip of a lifetime...she is so pleased with how everything is going...and then the next minute she's lying in bed, realizing that "the solution to the problem is death. It has always been, and it always will be. ..And she is not ready to accept it yet." (p.210) What problem? Why is death the solution? Does anyone have any idea where this depression is coming from in the midst of this happy fulfilling Italian journey?

One MORE leetle item that has captured my attention in this section...palimpsest

"We live in a palimpsest of memories." p.203 I looked in my American Heritage- "Palimpsest: A manuscript on papyrus or parchment, written on more than once with the earlier writing completely erased and often legible. An object, place or area that reflects its history.

On the SAME page, the ~SAMEe word appears again..."But it is there, this image, in the palimsest of her memory, and IF SHE LIVES, she will revisit it."

It is unlike M. Drabble to use the same word twice in this manner, isn't it? Unless she is trying to draw our attention to the fact that some residual memory is causing some distress to Candida. I wonder what you make of this word...both its meaning here and Drabble's usage...

Stay warm....on to Part II!

Mal, I hope you are gathering thought for the next section and not without power. Keeping the fingers warm to type up a storm. Our pipes have taken a beating in these single diget temps and I'm almost as frozen as they are!! BUT, can hardly wait to see what you all have to say Tomorrow!!

Lou

Joan commented that she thought Candida "risked everything" to marry Andrew. I see it just the opposite. I don't think marrying Andrew was a risk at all. Given her family background, I expect marrying and becoming the nonworking wife was the "pattern" she was expected to follow in this religious family which didn't believe in women working or "improving on nature." If she'd said no to that and gone into a career, she'd have risked not following mum and dad's view of what one did. I wouldn't be surprised to learn Andrew was the only fellow she ever dated. I don't think she can handle "change," let alone risk. It sounds as if she grew up in a narrow, confined world and continued to live in that "world" [what I'd call a "rut"] with Andrew. Only when the marriage ended and she was tossed out of the "rut" did she have to cope with change, and she's had a difficult time with that. Three years in London and she's found herself a new narrow rut...the Vergil class and when that ends the Health Club. She continues to go there because it's in the same building. If she were interested in education, why didn't she find a class somewhere else in the city? Surely she knew how to get about on the subway system---or did she? I wonder if she ever did get on the "tube" and go up to Knightsbridge and walk through Harrod's or Selfridge's or whatever stores are there. [I've not yet come to understand how one substitutes a Health Club for a Vergil class?]

What is the risk in this trip? Yes, she did take the "risk" of finally doing something outside the "rut." For me, this is her 2nd attempt at her own life. [The first was the move to London.] Yet, the trip has a Guide and Mrs. Jerrold is there as the teacher. She's with her classmates and a couple "leftovers" from the Old Life. As I recall, she'd been to Italy before with Andrew, so that is not a new experience for her. She'd have an idea what to expect, etc. Nothing new there.

I don't know what to make of the mood swings--is it a continuation of her self-absorption or is it clinical depression and indicates a mental instability? I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the differences since I'm not a mental health professional (nor do I play one on TV as that stupid ad used to say!)nor have I dealt with these things first hand.

In reading all the posts here and all the talk of the "tricks" and "playing with the reader" I must admit I've come to view Drabble in a less than favorable light as a writer. The old saying about "if you can't dazzle them with brillance, then baffle them with bs" comes to mind. I guess the question at the end is...is it brillance or is it bs?

I need to re-read Part III before tomorrow.

Candida is unhappy with her current life and wants to change herself; to be a totally new person. I agree she's been in a rut all her life, and not actively choosing her path in life, and she wasn't a risk-taker by marrying Andrew and having children. She was raised to believe that was the safe and conventional route in life.

In Part 1 Candida thought she'd been transformed at the end, or was changing, and she prepared for the pilgrimage in anticipation of happiness -- happiness for Candida is just around the corner but not in the moment.

Yet in Part 2 when fate steps in, with the ambiguous phone call, it throws her back into uncertain, dim, and miserable Candida and she can't face the imagined "crisis" without help. When Candida starts on the trail to beseech the Sibyl for a message, something happens but we're not sure what it is. Another ambiquity; no definite closure or firm meaning, and just as in Part 1, there is the expectation that we'll know the answers, waiting just around the corner.

Marvelle

I’m so enjoying hearing from so many of you in email and I look forward to tomorrow, I’m as excited as if I…well, there’s a lot to recommend in this way of reading. If I had read this on my own there’s no way I would have even paused over half of this stuff, you’ve made it a much richer experience.

Also I do apologize, I usually use a lot of the participants’s quotes in the heading and for some reason this time they came so fast and breathtakingly, I didn’t, sorry, but when we do the Reader’s Guide for this discussion I will ask that they put up some then.

Lou, no I knew Weil rang a bell but it was such a muffled one hahahaah I agree with you, what a book indeed, what a tapestry and boy will I be disappointed if it gives way at the strain. We’ll know tomorrow!

Carolyn, I did, too, I felt her joy and something else, when you feel like she did on the deck of the ship you also feel guilty. You feel guilty for all the times you did not realize how lucky you really are.

I agree, Lou, she’s up, she’s down, why?

Marvelle, you’re seeing a climax and denouement in both parts? Interesting. Should we be looking for same in Part III?

Boy howdy if these women are not real I WILL throw the book across the room. Haahaha

Thank you SOO much for the analysis of each of their stories, I could not have done that, the trust thing!!!!!!

Thank you for explaining all the operatic and other references, bless your HEART!

Candida couldn’t trust herself to risk telling even one tale, do you think?

And then Lou points out all kinds of times Candida did trust and got hurt.

Did she risk her dreams? If I told you I’m beginning, not having read to the end, to think she made the entire thing up you WOULD think me a nut, huh? We shall see!!!!!!!!!

Joan P, right on. What problem? What problem indeed, mystery upon mystery. Wonderful analysis, you guys are hot today!

I don’t know where the depression is coming from but any child who routinely sits with a towel over her head and cries and enjoys it, perhaps is depressed and maybe always has been? It’s possible?

OH and thank you for mentioning palimpsest "We live in a palimpsest of memories." p.203

I loved your close look at what Drabble may be saying to us, doublespeak in a way. TWO texts, maybe? One underlying the other?

I’ve looked most of the afternoon for something I haven’t seen in a long time and EUREKA I found it, I thought you might also like to see it:

Palimpsest (click to enlarge)
Showing the writings of St. Augustine over a text of Cicero, seen by applying different lights to the original (which itself is quite faint): Ultra Violet light and Infrared light

Palimpsests to me are fascinating. With vellum (ox hide) at a premium, many times monks would scrape off old manuscript texts to put on their own ecclesiastical writings. It didn’t have to be one of the pagan ancients, either, who were removed, as is commonly thought, there is evidence of other church writings being covered, too: it simply was a lack of parchment available.

In this one through two different treatments, ultra violet light and infrared lights if that’s spelled right, you can see the original writing which is under the other. They have a lot of new techniques now, this one is quite old but it’s a marvelous and little seen example of what palimpsest is.

Now as Joan P so cleverly asked, could THIS be a palimpsest too, that Drabble has written?

Delicious to contemplate.

Jane, what an interesting take, “if she were interested in education why didn’t she find a class in the city,” that’s an interesting point. The surmise is this poor soul is just shell shocked and she says she uses her “passport” her Virgil former class to come on in to the gym. To me the two things are so different, there’s no way I would do that, shy as I am.

Jane!!

if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bs.”

Hahaah when I first read that I thought it said BEES? Hahahaha you know B’s? Dazzle them, with B’s, the whole time we were carrying water to the horse this evening I kept thinking what B’s? hahahaah

Oh that’s so funny, so are we bedazzled, bewitched or bewildered or all three? That’s’ the question, Part III tomorrow!

(Almost hate to read it and find out I was wrong) hahaahah

Marvelle, just around the corner!! Remember that old song, just around the corner, there’s a..what? rainbow in the sky? So let’s have another cup of coffee and let’s have another piece of pie.

Jeepers some of those old songs were nuts.

I’m going to find out right now!! See you all tomorrow~!

Tisi-Phus

Remember...I'm in FARM country...pigs...and...cows...and bulls....and....THINK!

;0)

Hi, all! I’ve been non compus mentis what with all the tax studying, so I’ve finally caught up with the 80-some-odd posts you have made, and have a few comments despite their relevance at this point.

Ginny: referred to as "Candy" by Julia on page 209: did that surprise you Yes, indeedy! Isn’t that a stripper name, as in Candy Barr? (a for-real Texas stripper)

"She is glad she is not Anna Palumbo, traveling alone." (page 216) Do you think Candida Wilton could travel alone? I think she could, but I’m not sure she would enjoy it much. It would be like a continuation of her present existence. I’ve read many things about how great it is to travel alone, but I’ve done it recently, and the best I can say for it is that you can go where you want when you want and it gave me a lot more time to write in my journal. I’d rather be relatively restricted and have someone to eat dinner with at night.

Pedlin: Why is Sally, "the woman they like to dislike." I think Sally is the one who makes them feel superior, which is why they like to dislike her.

Lou, what a wonderful response to the Sibyl problem, Amen!

Marvelle: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree but can an adult take responsibility for themselves and their actions? Is it fated to be 'like mother/father like daughter' forever and ever? I think some of your personality is dictated by genes, so yes. The sad thing is that Ellen and Candida would probably get along famously because they are so alike.

Lou2: 'Put out to sea, Ignoble comrades. Our end is life. Put out to sea!' The narrator is mulling death of Dido and then "Our end is life." Marvelle has brilliantly tied Camus into this novel, and I think maybe "our end is life" may sum up his philosophy. The goal of it all should be to live your life as best you can.

Ginny said: And WHAT did Camus mean?? Camus (1913-1960) wrote that "If there is a sin against life, it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this life." Put down those dreams, Dreamers!!??!! I think "hoping for another life" could mean two things: counting on a great afterlife (heaven or whatever) or simply "the grass is greener" syndrome. I don’t think it is the death of dreams, but instead a call to really live your life rather than waiting/hoping/wishing for something better to come along.

Who is Salammbo I read Flaubert’s Trois Contes (Three Tales) in a seminar and loved them (much more than Mme Bovary), but durned if I remember any of it.

Marvelle: What's wrong with Ida's story? It implies that Orwell was a tourist in the good old days of Spain but in reality he went to Spain to fight against Franco in the Spanish Civil War. The thing I wondered is that the Spanish (at last my DIL’s uncle) lament Franco’s demise in 1975 because now that there are no longer police on every street corner, there is a lot more crime in Spain. That would fit with Eugene’s robbery, I think.

Thanks for all the Camus input. I really liked it.

Ginny, the Laocoon statue is stunning!

What does Anais want? What does Cynthia want? What does Sally want? Anaïs wants a new connection, Cynthia wants a fun trip, and maybe Sally just wants a trip, too, something to talk about when she gets home. "Has Mr. Barclay made a will, and if so, has he left anything or everything to Cynthia? They do not speak of this, for they are nice ladies. Some of them do not even think of it." (page 243) To me this is CW herself speaking—nice lady, but practical to the nth. Yet she feels it is not "ladylike" to ask, or even wonder. (But I did.)

NOBODY is as popular and wonderful as Eugene was. This Eugene reminded me of my Gene, generous, etc., someone people loved to see, who was always willing to buy the round. At the grocery stores, the clerks knew his name; I spent hours preparing for classes that he just waltzed in and did superbly. Everybody knew Mr. Wright. (and he was a radio dj and a reporter, too). But it was hard for a spouse to have her own identity. Maybe Eugene was pathetic, but I liked him.

Marvelle: The graffiti artists "studiously and conscientiously consulting a large cardboard graffiti-design template." I laughed out loud. I found it to be an ironic statement on artificial "creativity," these young guys thinking they are being so creative, yet having to copy a template.

Joan: Personally, I think she risked everything by marrying Andrew. Wonder why she married him. I agree with Jane. Andrew was no risk at all—it was expected that she would marry— except she should have wondered a bit when the "experienced" Julia wouldn’t touch him with a 10-foot pole.

And I love your take on palimsest.

Jane: I've not yet come to understand how one substitutes a Health Club for a Vergil class? Just because it’s in the same building! Right! What an odd conceit.

Lots of people have commented on the up/down syndrome with Candida. It’s another thing I identify with. I just think some of us are more "depressive" than others, and so we experience those ups and downs, sometimes over nothing.

I see two texts also and wonderfully done. Gee, I logged in to talk of bees and Tisi mentioned them (or hinted at them.) First, I'd enjoy Ida Jerrold as traveling companion, intelligent, calm, non-intrusive and maddenly inscrutable, like the Sibyl, with what she leaves unsaid. On the plane that begins the pilgrimage, Ida has open the book The Death of Virgil but she isn't reading it; instead she uses it to escape to thoughts of poets inspired by Virgil who made their own pilgrimage to Italy -- Goethe and Wordsworth.

"She is thinking also of young Wordsworth crossing of the Alps on foot, and of his mild astonishment when he reached the far side." (176)

Wordsworth wrote Prelude which explores his development into a poet from child to man. Prelude is a journey of self-exploration and in part of the Prelude he describes his Continental trip, inspired by Goethe's Italian Journey. His mild astonishment at reaching the far side is not of wonder at being in Virgil's or Goethe's fabled country; his astonishment is the fact that his imagination led him to high expectations of the Golden Land and the reality was a disappointment and he'd passed through the Alps without knowing it. Expectation fed by Imagination followed by Disappointment. Therein lies Wordsworth's recognition of the transforming power of imagination and his calling as a poet. It's in imagination that he is transformed.

Goethe too was transformed -- he died spiritually in Naples and was reborn -- from a man whose occupation was the running of a small kingdom and who writes poetry on the side; and transformed into a man who is a poet first and foremost and that is his only calling and occupation.

I have to reread Part 3 so I can be ready for tomorrow and the discussion.

Marvelle

Thank you, Lou, for remembering me. No, the power didn’t go off. I fell off the roller coaster when I was reported to the principal’s office for unladylike behavior. I’ve been in an isolation room in North Carolina ever since, chastising myself for all the bad things I’ve done in my life. Candida and me? We‘re good at that.

Well, it was a good ride while it lasted, and I thank you all, especially Ginny and Marvelle for revealing miracles of the classics I didn’t know.

Now I’m going to look at Drabble’s book just for myself and see if I can figure out the difference between what Jane called bs and those bees I keep hearing about while I try to get over feeling terrible. My sincere apologies to all of you.

Mal

his astonishment is the fact that his imagination led him to high expectations of the Golden Land and the reality was a disappointment and he'd passed through the Alps without knowing it.

Expectation fed by Imagination followed by Disappointment.---Marvelle

Astonished, she finds
an elaborate conceit:
a joke on the reader
or something else?

Well well well, at first I crowed! “I knew it! I knew she drowned herself!! Pearson you owe me a lunch!!” But she didn’t, did she?

And Valeria, et al, were real even tho Unreal Ellen wondered herself, “I did wonder for a moment whether Valeria was a real person.” (page 265) So I was wrong, or was I?

I don’t think any of the people in this story are real, to tell you the truth and I think Candida in her continual attempts, climbing fences (is that in this section, sorry) to get refuse (I was wrong again, I had said a limb of the golden tree/ bough would be in a bottle in her kitchen, she missed that faux touch, too bad, really) and wading in the pond to get refuse, the woman who thinks it’s a noble profession to to have a job picking up gum from the pavement, is badly in need of assistance.

How do YOU feel, Gentle Reader, with the appearance of the third, Faux narrator in Part III? If you read to Part IV you know the author is jerking you around, having her fun, how does it make you feel? Did you care about Candida? Do you now?

” But she’s [Martha] very young, still.”(page 262). How young IS Martha?

”I’m not well up on similes and metaphors… Or was she hoping that someone—someone like me—would come along and get the impression that she had actually read Hegel? When she hadn’t?....I think I’ve worked out what she was trying to do with those first and third person voices…” Thus begins on page 263, Drabbles own explication of what she was trying to do.

What’s YOUR opinion of her success?

What’s she trying to do with Ellen? A faux..what do you call people who attend their own funerals? This seems to me to be like a suicide (told you so, I told you and now you’ll be sorry~!) getting to see the reaction to her own typing.

Seven Sisters Station, and Seven Sisters Road, we’ll add those to our list we so carefully made of the Seven Wonders of the Fictional World.

“She sure as hell lied about a lot of other things. Lies of omission and of commission.” (page 255)

So it appears. What’s the reader’s take on all this?

A faked suicide, another new narrator, also fictitious, Ellen the daughter who reveals among other things that our Candida , she of the chaste and pure name, was a liar, or at best a fictitious being from the get go, or is she?

I must admit that the part on page 268, where she said, “ this machine can spell the name of Valeria…” etc, followed by the GLOSS again when it’s supposedly Ellen speaking, made the hair stand up on my arms, the GLOSS, the GHOST of the GLOSS.

And it’s all an illusion, isn’t it? But before I got there, I have in my notes in the margin of page 261, the paragraph starting “I ad mit that I am not very well paid…” the notice that this supposedly new narrator uses the same phraseology, the same sentence structure, the same syntax as Candida, it’s not Ellen or it’s bad writing, think of that. It’s not Ellen.

“Why would one lie in one’s diary?” (page 265)

“That faux- naif tone she adopts is very irritating”…(page 264)

Sure was.

What are your own reactions to Part III, the author, what she was tying to do (do you KNOW?) or anything else in Part III?

ginny

For Your Consideration:

Week IV

Part III: January 25, 26, 27:

Week I Questions Still On Offer:

12. How many references are there mentioned in this book to the word Seven?

Seven Sisters Constellation
District of London called Seven Sisters(Viogert)
"Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings? And not one of the is forgotten before God." Epigraph
Dedication: "For Ann, Kay, Pat, Per, Viv and Al" That's six names - Seven Sisters. Is "Maggie" the seventh? (Joan P)
The name Candida has 7 letters (Mme)
"We'll be seven, anyway, if you include the driver." (page 157)
The Seychelles Islands are called the Seven Sisters (Malryn)
The solitaire cards are laid out in a pattern of seven (Norway Carolyn)
Seven Sisters railway station
Seven Sisters Road

Week IV: Part III

1. How do YOU feel, Gentle Reader, about the appearance of the third, Faux Narrator in Part III? If you read to Part IV you know the author is jerking you around, having her fun, how does it make you feel?

Did you care about Candida? Do you now?

2. ” But she’s [Martha] very young, still.”(page 262). How young IS Martha? Martha is a marginal, barely sketched out character, are any of the supporting characters well drawn?

3. “She sure as hell lied about a lot of other things. Lies of omission and of commission.” (page 255)

How much of this narrative is a lie? What's the point? What's the point of this book?

4. ”I’m not well up on similes and metaphors… Or was she hoping that someone—someone like me—would come along and get the impression that she had actually read Hegel? When she hadn’t?....I think I’ve worked out what she was trying to do with those first and third person voices…”

Thus begins on page 263, Drabbles own explication of what she was trying to do.

What’s YOUR opinion of her success?

For Your Consideration: ~ Week I & II

I just have one or two thoughts here generally before you all jump in, I hate to even deflect for one moment your thoughts, Mme, thank you for noticing the Laocoon, Malryn appreciate your noticing the classical explanations, I see she mentioned Petra, the glorious red city in the sand and Leptis Magna, two of the finest and most astonishing ancient sites in the world. I could but won't put up photos of them, unless somebody wants to see them, particularly, you may all be OD'd on Petra and Leptis Magna.

I would like to discuss Camus's idea further, I like your take on it, Tax Lady! hahaha (TWO Tax Ladies here!)

"I don’t think it is the death of dreams, but instead a call to really live your life rather than waiting/hoping/wishing for something better to come along. "

Once you all tell me what this book is really about I'd like to discuss that a bit! AND the traveling alone bit.

Why Mme: What an odd conceit.

What indeed, penny for all of your thoughts today!

ginny penny

If I promise to behave myself, may I rejoin this group? There is so much I’d like to say about this book. Please accept that anything which might seem negative in what I post is directed toward me and no one else.

"At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of these trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we had clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise . . . that denseness and that strangeness of the world is absurd.” Albert Camus

Having delved into Existentialism quite a bit some years ago, I would like to say that it is very difficult to understand what Camus was all about without first examining Jean Paul Sartre and what he wrote. Sartre’s book Nausea was one of the most profound and disturbing books I ever read. I have read very little Nietzsche, but have been told that his version of Existentialism is truer than that of Sartre. Camus went away from what Sartre propounded to Existence before Essence. I find very little hope in Sartre‘s Existentialism. Some appear to find some hope in Camus.

What I see in Seven Sisters is an attempt to portray the absurd through the mind of Candida Wilton. To me (only, perhaps) Candida is drawn as a very depressed woman. Anyone who focuses so much on death and a means to die is mentally ill, in my opinion. Jane questions why she didn’t do this and that, and I’ll say, “Because she couldn’t.” She was trapped within herself, and was attempting to understand the absurdity she found in her life and life in general to the point where she had to fabricate her death, a death that presumably would bring her some relief from what she was going through, the nothingness Camus talks about. At the lowest point in my life, I went through something like what Candida did, and I identify with her experience very, very well.

The kind of self-examination Candida was doing can only lead to more. Before she could come to any kind of resolution, she had to strip away lies, and she’d been lying to herself all her life. The only real release from these thoughts is the acceptance that what’s here is what is, absurd as it may be, so one can make the choice whether to die or go on.

I think the characters are real. I think the trip the Seven Sisters took did occur. It’s my opinion that Drabble fell down in writing Part Two of this book. With all the anticipation she created about following Aeneas’s steps into the Underworld, it’s my feeling that she should have carried the Seven Sister’s trip a step further. On the other hand, by not doing this, she emphasized the absurdity of the idea in the first place.

The most shocking thing in this book to me was that Candida did not visit the Sibyl.

Mal

I read Seven Sisters cover to cover when it came in December… I closed the covers and thought “What in the world is this book about???”. I can’t say I’m any nearer to an answer now. I’ve loved the discussion and learned more than I ever thought possible. Do I care about Candida? I suppose I do, or why in the world would I have spent so much time on this book???? How do I feel about this new narrator in the third part? At this point, Drabble has inflicted so much, I think I just accept what she throws at me. Am I interested in trying to figure this out? I have tried and tried… and depend on you all to tell me what in the world it is I’ve been reading and re-reading and re-reading!!!

Lou

Question 1: How do I feel about being jerked about...etc? I too read this book early, all the way through and had a glimmer of its dual text but wasn't sure if Drabble had taken a position on the issues (and I don't think she intended to show her position or else she's still udecided herself). I felt on the first reading disconnected emotionally with the story and still feel that way. And I felt from the first reading -- dare I say it? -- some resentment as if I'd been cheated as a reader; and definitely confused. Do I care about Candida? The style of the book is so fragmented -- a potent word to Drabble -- that I haven't been given enough of Candida to care about. I don't know who she is which I think is part of Drabble's concern with writing about people. This jury is still out also; my feelings may change given other people's insights and my ongoing re-evaluations.

Part 1 is called a Diary, inspired by Virginia Woolf's Diary, written in the 1st person POV, with images of water and darkness; but with the expectation of a spiritual rebirth.

Part 2 is a travel book, inspired by Goethe's The Italian Journey, Part 2 is written by an Omniscient Narrator POV, with images of sun and light and bodies, and with the expectation of a spiritual rebirth.

Part 3 is a biography, inspired by James Pope-Hennessy's biography about the Queen Mother, titled Queen Mary. Another narrative voice, 3rd person POV but not omniscient; images of earth; expectation of rebirth -- move to another country, start a new life, change yourself.

Pope-Hennessy's other biographies include Robert Louis Stevenson and Anthony Trollope. (Small world, this one of English literature.) Pope-Hennessy was prone to inserting French words and phrases into his writing without translating them. The Royals in his Queen Mary also spoke French at odd times.

From www.amazon.co.uk comes this snippet:

The publisher, The Phoenix Press, 6 July 2001 - Antonia Fraser explains why [Queen Mary] is one of her favorites:

"First published in 1959, James Pope-Hennessy's work set a new benchmark for royal biography. On the one hand he was given full access to the Royal Archives and was thus able to give a full, very colourful picture of the lives of European royalties, the stock from which Queen Mary came, as well as those in England. On the other hand, as an accomplished and sophisticated writer, Pope-Hennessy was well qualified to present a portrait which was subtly critical -- where necessary -- and with touches of humour...."

Queen Mary's mother was Queen May and she was fat, starting at 198 pounds as a young woman and getting fatter as she aged. I don't know if this was an influence for Fat Sally....

Tisi, the fence climbing is in Part 4. All the deliberately false/wrong/misleading allusions in Parts 1 and 2, and the sheer overwhelming number of the false ones in Part 2, clued me in to expect a reversal during my first read.

The Aeneid is still the over-arching structure of Seven Sisters for whoever is writing the book, keeps wishing or expecting some type of change, a spiritual rebirth, but is looking outward rather than inward.

Will get back to Existentialism in this book and the questions....

Marvelle

I hate to be picky but it would be nicer if we used the word overweight instead of fat when posting our own thoughts unless quoting the text of the book. Fat to me is connotations of the school yard bullying. This is not a personal issue to me but there may be people reading these posts who may be very sensitive about weight issues. I did not like Candida much when she kept speaking about fat Sally. Today in this image conscious world people who are overweight are discriminated against and made to feel almost like criminals and so many of them really struggle with this battle of the bulge. I never ever put on weight until I reached menopause. My doctor says I am not obese. My mother has spent her whole life dieting and gave us all really bad feelings about our bodies. When I was very very thin I still saw myself as fat because of the example she set us. Image is everything to my Mum. You could be a really awful person but as long as you were thin and immaculately dressed my mum would think this makes you a very nice person! I think Candida resembles my Mum as she is very fixed on body image and looks as one can see from her descriptions of the people she meets at the gym and on her trip. She does not really focus that much on the characters of her companions and I feel her perception of the persons outer image influences the opinion she has on her fellow travellers characters. I use the world character to mean the moral fibre of the others. Who they really are and how they relate to and treat others. Does anyone else get the same impression?

Carolyn

Carolyn I think overweight is so much better than fat. When I was growing up, (I forgot where I was at the time) but the children would call me the little fat tub and my friend the Big fat tub.

Thank you for bring that up. Now I am the same wieight as when I graduated from High school but the weight has just slipped a bit. (BG)

Ginger

About this book Lou says, "What in the world is it about?"

Ginny thinks none of the people in the book are real.

Marvelle has more or less categorized the parts of it by saying Part One is inspired by Virginia Woolf's diary; Part Two is inspired by Goethe's The Italian Journey, and Part Three is inspired by James Pope-Hennessy's biography of Queen Mary. If I understand correctly, Marvelle thinks rebirth is a major theme, especially as related to Virgil's Aeneid.

Carolyn has rightly and politely asked that people not be referred to as fat and has suggested that Candida based her opinion of people on how they looked and not what they really were. Like the Duchess of Windsor, Carolyn? The word is that the Duchess said, "You can never be too rich or too thin."

I've said the author was portraying the absurd through the mind of Candida Wilton.

What an interesting book it is that inspires such different reactions! I'm tempted to say that there are not two of us here who would agree when it comes to saying what this book is about and what Margaret Drabble's intentions were when she wrote it.

To me there is something telling on Page 267. Candida as her daughter, Ellen, writes:-

"It's no good, trying to dress up your banal responses by classical allusions and references to Goethe, by using long words and broken off bits of mythology. The Seven Sisters, Alcyone, Celaeno, Electra, Maia, Merope, Sterope, Taygate. The Seven Daughters of Atlas. A beneficent constellation, I gather. I looked them up in a Classical Dictionary. So what? Anyone can do that."

The italics above are mine.

Who's to say that Candida did not look all of her allusions up; that she did not grab her Aeneid and copy from it just for show, like the way she used the allusions mentioned above? Candida certainly was not a classical scholar, or even a scholar at all. To me it's as if she threw in the Aeneid and other allusions to make herself look better than she was, to bolster her shaky image of herself. It's as if she were writing for somebody. But who? For whom did Candida write all this stuff? The person who would read it after her death, like the fictitious Ellen?

This was Candida explaining herself, not Margaret Drabble, in my opinion. A writer of the class of Margaret Drabble does not have to put a kind of apologia in her work. A writer of the class of Margaret Drabble gets inside her character and writes for her.

Mal

Hi, dear Ginger. I'm sorry those children were so mean to you.

Mal

I think it's important that we use the names given and, if we choose, to question why these words were used. My mother was fat, obese, heavy and I find all of these names personally offensive and hateful just as I am offended by that word 'overweight'. I remember how my mother was hurt by the names said to her face. I'm 'overweight' myself -- or however you choose to say it -- and I learned long ago, from my mother's example to see the spiritual harm done to the name-callers. I'm comfortable with my weight and happy with myself.

Yet we are not name calling; we are talking about what was said about characters.

Queen Mary's mother was mocked for her weight and was called 'fat' and this is possibly a link back to Sally being called fat by the narrator. This is one of the connect the dots that I see between Pope-Hennessy's biography -- how people are characterized, an overall concern I believe of Drabble's -- and Part 3. For Candida (or the narrator) to name-call shows a lack of self esteem through this desperate need to put people down as a way to build themselves up. And this is just one example of name-calling; there's "poor" Julia and Candida's reference to "blacks" and other people she doesn't consider quite English enough.

Are these side issues to Seven Sisters or an important part of the novel? I think it would be important if there is a authorial question of the inability to adeuately characterize fictional characters or as an indication of Candida's nature.

Marvelle

Mal I read all the posts in the books being discussed and apprieciate every post as that is how we learn when we cannot read Every book as there is not enought time to do that.

Children can be so hurtful but they don't understand when they are children. I remember the catlicker and potlicker between the religions also.

Enough of that so Please Back to the Book but Carolyn asked and I just had to answer.

Ginger

Mal, I appreciate your try at summing up my points. I do keep trying to understand a novel and to see it's structure if it seems to point to themes or issues. The structure of Seven Sisters is certainly not traditional and calls for a close look. Yet I read your post and couldn't find an explanation for what you found "telling" on p 267? What it means and how is it telling? I'd be interested to see if we have the same response to it.

You've stated what you think I consider to be the major theme but I'd like to know what you identify as the theme which again may be something I also see as a theme. This is actually a question to all the participants. What do you see as the theme(s) in Seven Sisters?

Marvelle

Hi, Marvelle.

"I looked it up in the Classical Dictionary" said a lot to me. The paragraph that begins "Who's to say" explains what I meant, I believe. Actually, I guess what I'm doing is accusing Candida of being a fraud.

Mal

Mal, if the quote written by Ellen "explains what you meant" -- sorry sorry but this is still vague to me -- are you saying that you agree with the judgments in the paragraph? And when you say Candida is a fraud that means...? What is a fraud? And you no longer have sympathy for the divorced Candida?

Of course we'll have to agree to disagree about the issue of taking sides for I don't accept either Candida's or Ellen's viewpoints and I'll try to explain how I reached that opinion:

As I'd said earlier, I saw Part 2 as deliberately vague and the overwhelming allusions were either misleading/wrong/incomplete as being intentionally deceptive; yet intermixed with those are allusions that aren't wrong or misleading or incomplete and those are done well. Some of us pointed out early into Part 1 how Candida had mistakenly identified the mistletoe as the Golden Bough as well as not understanding the purpose of the GB.

As Part 2 goes overboard with the theory of literature and allusions, Part 3 goes overboard in its theory of communication and its science. Ellen is a speech therapist but she has trouble communicating. That's the irony of Ellen's attempt to criticize.

Drabble is quite clear to lay out the deficiencies of these 2 side-by-side Parts, as if she's writing out an interior monologue of someone arguing with herself, and she still hasn't reached a conclusion.

Have to prepare dinner now and then I plan to carve out a bit of time for some lovely reading.

Marvelle

Marvelle:-

The "Who’s to say" paragraph in my Post #518 is not part of Ellen’s quote.

In Part Three Candida = Ellen = Candida, on and on.

It's not necessary to "like" any character in any book to be able to sympathize or empathize with him or her.

Anxiously waiting to read your latest hypotheses and finds.

Mal

Oh dear Mal, I didn't say like/dislike; those are your words. My word was "sympathy." Nor did I ask about your "who's to say" but about your conclusions from Ellen's quote that you posted. Unfortunately, without an explaination of how you reached your conclusions, I can't comment on them which is a shame because I like to share insights and learn from others. It's a matter of different ways of seeing I expect which is good overall. The more diverse opinions and way of seeing, the better. For myself, I'll continue with a close reading with posts attempting to explain what I see in that reading and why I see it. Some may have reached a general belief of what's being said in Seven Sisters and it'll be interesting, and I think enlightening, to compare notes at the ending of this discussion.

Tisi, more tomorrow about your questions. I'm assuming we're only talking about Part 3 and not including Part 4 yet? I'm especially interested in Part 4 with Ellen's acknowledged poor communication which mirrors Candida's muddled allusions and evasions.

Marvelle

Ginny: "But she’s [Martha] very young, still."(page 262). How young IS Martha?" Martha’s an afterthought, was a friend of Jane’s, and the 4th or 5th anniversary of her death approaches (76), so I picture Martha as about 18. She visits with her boyfriend in Part IV. (Yes, I couldn’t help myself.)

What’s the reader’s take on all this? I think Candida is going through a rough spot, possibly due to disappointment in the expectation, and uses Ellen’s narrative as a way of looking quite harshly at herself, imagining how her journal might be looked at, in fact, after her death. Earlier she said that self-pity was seductive, and depression is worse.

I was devastated that she had not visited the Sybil, but spent the afternoon like the others, chatting at a café. There’s nothing worse than betraying yourself. Why? Inertia? Fear? Why did she not go?

Mal: I'm tempted to say that there are not two of us here who would agree when it comes to saying what this book is about and what Margaret Drabble's intentions were when she wrote it. Actually, I think you and I pretty much agree.

It's as if she were writing for somebody. But who? For whom did Candida write all this stuff? She wrote it for herself, as you said. This was her attempt to find a direction, which is why I think Part III was written during a dark period. Again, you said: Before she could come to any kind of resolution, she had to strip away lies, and she’d been lying to herself all her life.

she had to fabricate her death, a death that presumably would bring her some relief from what she was going through, the nothingness Camus talks about. I will argue here that "nothingness" is Sartre’s term, and that Camus did not accept suicide as an viable alternative.

Ginny Please be Gentle with me as I was just responding to Kiwi Lady (Carolyn) I had no business posting not having read the Book and I am sorry I did as you are all talking about the Book Seven Sisters and guess I was being to personal.

Ginger

Never too personal Ginger. I'm happy to find out that you knew I was quoting and not speaking out of prejudice. Have you formed an opinion about what's going on with Seven Sisters or have we totally confused you? I am myself, as you've probably guessed, confused in Albuquerque....

Marvelle

Hey, Marvelle, I'm going to Albq on the 10th to care for my brother. Lunch?

Sue

Love it, Sue! Email me and we can swap particulars, where you'd like to go for lunch etc. Unfortunately I don't drive but there are still plenty of places we can go. My place for instance for somewhere convenient to where you're staying.

I was just reading one of your posts about Eugene and the theft of his wallet. It would've happened in Franco's time according to Ida? What I got from the quote was that Ida twisted the circumstances; she was saying that Spain was safe from crime before Franco but Eugene's wallet was stolen because Franco had grabbed power and crime was suddenly rampant. Which wasn't so, of course. Everyone was too afraid of Franco's police and criminals were dealt with harshly. I bet you've seen the movie "La Belle Epoque"? What a hoot! I've watched it with Spaniards who howl with laughter during the Keystone Kops episode, because it was so the opposite of reality but was a safety valve that released the tension of a police state.

I say I'm melancholic rather than depressive -- doesn't it sound more genteel? Ha! I do believe the trait is inherited but we can recognize it and not become a victim to it but instead find ways of coping as best we can. I believe most artists are melancholic and solitary beings. I inherited melancholy through my mother's family (Native American mainly) and my father's family (Eastern European) -- what a combined disaster!

Marvelle

Well, Marvelle, when I read and answered your post it said, "And you no longer like the divorced Candida?" You must have edited it at about the same time I posted.

How can I be more specific? Ellen said she looked things up in the Classical Dictionary. That rang a bell in my head, and I posted:-

"Who's to say that Candida did not look all of her allusions up; that she did not grab her Aeneid and copy from it just for show, like the way she used the allusions mentioned above?"

You're right about nothingness and Sartre, Madame.

I think Candida was fragmented; this based on what some psychologists told me once about personality disorders, and that one specifically. Rather than a rebirth, I believe she was trying to pull the pieces of herself together. The process, I guess, is tremendously difficult.

She wasn't able to do it by writing in her own voice in Part One, so she tried objectivity with the third person in Part Two. That didn't work, so she tried being someone else and looked at herself through that person's (Ellen's) eyes in Part Three. In order to that, she had to kill herself off figuratively. That didn't work, either, but she's coming close to fitting all the pieces of herself together in that part.

It interested me in Part Four that she used both the first and third person to write. I think Candida's main objective is trying to stay alive, and I think she came perilously close to doing the exact opposite.

Mal

Sue, red or green?

Mal, I may have said like/dislike before revising my message, I have no way of telling, but you know me by now. I need the 30 minutes grace period to revise and rethink my posts. My final message, and all that I have reference to, talked of sympathy not like/dislike.

Here are some points to ponder about Camus' Existentialism which I believe is life-affirming rather than life-negating:

"You will never be happy if you continue to search for what happiness consists of. You will never live if you are looking for the meaning of life."

-- Albert Camus (1913-1960)

Camus Critique of Existentialism

General Overview of Existentialism

Maybe this will give us a start on Camus' existentialism. Sue has succinctly defined Camus' humanistic brand of existentialism which I feel fits in with Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. There may be -- and probably are -- better links with which to explore existentialism but these are a start.

In modern nihilism, life's meaning and goals are no longer social givens.

From WWII, "In the concentration camp every circumstance conspires to make the prisoner lose his hold. All the familiar goals are snatched away. What alone remains is 'the last of human freedoms' - the ability to choose one's attitude in a given set of circumstances."

-- Viktor Frankl Man's Search for Meaning

"The existential vacuum is a widespread phenomenon of the 20th century. At the beginning of human history man lost some of the basic animal instincts in which an animal's behavior is embedded and by which it is secured....Man has suffered another loss in his more recent development insomuch as the traditions which buttressed his behavior are now rapidly diminishing. No instinct tells him what he has to do, and no tradition tells him what he ought to do; sometimes he doesn't even know what he wishes to do. Instead he either wishes to do what other people do (conformism) or he does what other people wish him to do (totalitarianism)"

-- Viktor Frankl Man's Search for Meaning

When given lemons, make lemonade??

Marvelle

Marvelle Just enjoying the ride. Smile. No opinions.

Ginger

Marvelle, green and the hotter the better!

Sue, green for me too! It has been quite a ride tonight, Ginger. Exciting, no?

I think that we agree, Mal, and its just a matter of semantics only. My "rebirth" is the same or similar to your "pulling the pieces together." The basic idea we actually agree on?

Marvelle

Yup, Marvelle. Well, we agree on more than one thing. Hey, I like green, too! I imagine this New England taste for Chowda, Lobstah and Fried Clams, that has stayed with me all my life no matter where I lived, makes me more timid than you Southwesterners are, though. How nice that you and the Madame can meet for lunch!

Mal

Morning, All. Hi Ginger -- I feel like I'm along for the ride, too, but I'm reading, and am flummoxed as to the point and theme of this book. Keep going back to the epigraph from Luke. We're all worth something, good, bad, warts and all?

Just wanted to tell you that I opened up this morning's paper and there on the society page -- Candida Dawn got married. She went to the high school where i was librarian, but I don't remember that kid. I'll bet they called her Dawn.

Question 1 -- Yes, I felt I'd been had. We've had some others like that, similar anyway -- Atwood's Blind Assassin and McE's Atonement. And those didn't bother me -- maybe I could see the point. But it is an interesting technique.

I am enjoying all your posts and they help a lot. Back later, after rereading.

I join the others here who've said they feel Candida has lost/is trying to "pull herself together" or find her grip on reality.

I wouldn't touch this woman with a ten-foot pole. She's, at best, trying to cope. At worse she is an egocentric, "cold fish" who is incapable of love or bonding with anyone, including her own children, and is a pathological liar.

Question 1: I don't like the technique. I find it far more BS than brillance. If Drabble has tried to impress her readers with this technique, she's failed miserably with me.

Question 2: Someone notes Martha was about 18 and that fits what I thought...somewhere in the mid to end "high school years" as we'd call them here in the US.

But what do you think of Ellen, Jane? Did she seem to you to be a young woman who had recently lost her mother? She's angry at things that C. wrote in her diary, yes...but she's talking about her as ...as we are. Not as a daughter. Perhaps I find this the most stunning part of this section. Talk about cold fish. I'm taking Ellen's comments with a grain of salt too.

Of course we do see now that the diary has been edited...which explains the spell check we noticed earlier...so Candida was preparing this for others to read. I am looking on this as her suicide note...but certainly didn't see it coming. Did not see depression on the trip. Perhaps the let-down, once the trip was over...finding herself at loose ends again.

The thing about the Sibyl talking to her...couldn't this have been her own communication within? Was it really necessary that she go TO the 'sacred spot'? Perhaps she meant that she posed the question to the Sibyl in her mind and "submit" was the answer that occurred to her. I don't think that the exact place was necessary, do you? When she realized that the group was not going to the spot, she was close enough to contemplate what Sybil's response might be to her question. What was her question though?

More than one of you has mentioned the fact that C. was writing one thing in her diary and feeling otherwise. Perhaps she was writing what she hoped the trip, with the Virgilians would make her happy...that it should make her happy, and did. But happiness is fleeting.

Susan, Marvelle, I too envy your lunch together. Will you tape your conversation about the Sisters?

Have a SUPER Sunday, everyone..

Joan: From my perspective, Ellen didn't lose a "mother" in the sense of losing someone who'd loved and cuddled and listened to her problems, etc. She lost the woman who'd given birth to her and had had no apparent bond with her since she left the womb. Giving birth, in my mind, does not make a "mother." So, to my way of thinking, no, Ellen didn't lose a "mother." She never had one.

Ellen, at least, has gotten away, had found a partner and a career she's obviously proud of and works at. She says she and Candida did speak on the phone, and Ellen's the one who comes all the way from Finland...while Isobelle and Martha apparently can't be bothered to come from Suffolk or wherever they are. So, apparently Ellen's the "closest" one to Candida. Sad.

Joan, I agree that Ellen is a cold fish and her own comments are suspect. A speech therapist who finds communicating difficult!

I posted a bit on Camus who had such a battle with Sartre over the pessimism of his philosophy that Camus never ever called himself an existentialist. Yet its ironic that his own thoughts created a new school of existentialism.

From Columbia University is this extract on Camus: QUOTE

"Another proponent of French existentialism was Albert Camus. He himself laid no claims to be an existentialist .... His famous novel The Stranger, concentrates on the alienation of the human being in the midst of the silent universe, the failure of the human being to comprehend his situation and his inability to find values to shape his life; thus, the human being remains an outsider. The human being, he maintains however, must not set out to destroy the absurdity, for there is no scope to 'leap' towards a God or optimism but face the absurd with courage.

"Life, Camus describes in The Myth of Sisyphus, is a kind of hopeless, endless, uphill labor. Hence, the only problem is that of suicide. Yet, he rejects nihilism, for the human being must fight and never accept defeat. The problem is to be a saint without a God. The last judgment takes place everyday. The human being must do his best, try for what he can within the confinements of his situation. Camus' views had close affinity with Sartre's [but] they later broke and were involved in a bitter controversy."

END QUOTE

For the full text see EXISTENTIALISM

From Marymount University is an intersting site that is short and simple and clear, explaining the themes found in existentialism -- existence precedes essense; there are no universal truths, moral standards and values; bad faith. For the short essay see:

EXISTENTIALISM THEMES

I didn't do an extensive study of Sartre as Mal did but I know he was brilliant and his writings are important and worth reading. While much of existentialism seems self-destructive, Camus, who's the author alluded to in Seven Sisters in a few different places, I can understand as a survivor. I wonder if the potentially suicidal Candida will accept his philosophy or any of existentialism? Perhaps the Biblical epigraph indicates otherwise? Hard to say at this point.

I recommend Camus' book The Myth of Sisyphus & Other Essays.

Marvelle

Marvelle, I have deleted my post.

Running way behind here, so sorry, have family here today and have not had time to read any of your submissions, got this in email, from Charlie (thank you, Charlie!!) please read, only good for two days: Boston Globe Article on The Seven Sisters Today!

ginny

"When she started trying to write the Italian Journey, she was trying to escape from the prison of her own voice." (264)

I've been wondering if you are dismissed from prison? Is this what she wanted the Sibly to dismiss her from??? the prison of her own voice??? My first time through this book, yes, I believed Ellen.

I have to say, I'll look very closely at another M Drabble before I buy it.

Lou

I consider that a very insensitive review in Globe. But how much, after all, can you put in 895 words? Yes, I copied it into my word processor and had it count them. As we have discovered here, this book has depths Mary Ambrose didn't even take time to consider. She also didn't take into account that Candida Wilton had been paralyzed in spirit and mind almost from the day she was born. Add to that a pompous, self-centered husband who couldn't see beyond his egotistical nose, and there comes even more paralysis. Well, my Massachusetts sister and her husband, who once loved that newspaper, are currently calling the Boston Globe "the Boston Glub". There has to be a reason.

I believed Ellen Wilton, too, the first time I read this book, and was sorrowful to think Candida had given up and died. I didn't question the relationship between mother and daughter, either while Candida was living or when she was dead.

Candida had been raised rigidly and coldly by her mother and father. She had no example of tenderness and love to follow. What else should I expect than the fact that she would treat her children the same way?

Lou, people are released from prison, I believe, not dismissed. It's my feeling that Candida wanted to be released from the prison of her mind. Candida was sick, and I say this based on studies I've read and experience I've had with people who've had the same type of sickness Candida had. I have sensed desperation in her from the very beginning of the book, and it was my fear that she would kill herself before she found any sort of relief or sought any help. The kind of illness she had is very difficult for "normal" people to pinpoint, and recovery is hard.

I think Ellen's version is very revealing, and if read carefully, it tells a great deal about Candida and her attempt to put the pieces of herself back together again so she could relax and start living instead of thinking her only answer to the pain she felt was to die.

Mal

Lou - the other two books I have read are nothing like this one. They are more like Iris Murdochs style. This is why I say this book is an attempt at one upmanship on her sister! I don't know whether it came off as well as Drabble planned. I would have preferred that she just elaborate more on Candida. The Greek connection and the tricks kind of distracted from the main plot and made the book seem to me to be disjointed.

I liked the other two books.

Carolyn

I would suggest reading Being and Nothingness by Jean Paul Sartre and his novel, Nausea. Both he and Camus put a great deal of their philosophy into the form of a novel. To learn more about Camus' philosophy, read his L'Étranger (The Stranger).

At the time when I was reading Sartre and Camus, I also read a lot of Simone de Beauvoir's works. Reading She Came to Stay by Beauvoir and her Adieux: A Farewell to Sartre will tell you more about Jean Paul Sartre's Existentialism. Simone de Beauvoir was the first real feminist I had read, except for George Bernard Shaw many years before. She was a very impressive woman.

When I was reading Sartre and Camus, a French man was a good friend of my husband and me. He continually cautioned me about conclusions I drew about Sartre's and Camus' Existentialism. It was his feeling that much of French Existentialism came out of World War II as it was experienced in France. In the 60's when I really studied these works, Americans had not experienced what they have today. Perhaps since September 11, 2001, we are better equipped to understand what Sartre and Camus are saying.

We must be careful of translations, too. Reading these works in French is quite different from reading them in English. I read French in the 60's much better than I do today because there were people with whom I could speak it at that time.

Mal

Ginny I have been wondering if you had lost power today as I had not seen you any where so thanks for letting us know. I want to thank you for the Boston Globe articule as it helps me understand a bit more about the Seven Sisters book, Not having read it on my own.

Ginger

Thanks for the review, Tisi and Charlie. It's good to see the different opinions in reviews, the negatives as well as the positives.

Joyce expertly incorporated classical texts into his Ulysses because he kept the focus on his characters. That's what I miss with Drabble's work. One of Drabble's stated concerns in an interview, one of those interviews, is the inability to totally know a person in literature. In Seven Sisters each of the parts has had a different voice and genre, a way at looking at the same character from different perspectives.

I too believed Ellen on the first read but by the second read I saw the intentional flaws in her argument. I question that p263 begins Drabble's explication of what she was trying to do because it is Drabble herself in Parts 1 and 2 who undermined the false allusions and laid some true allusions subtly along the path of the novel. No, I wouldn't limit the explication to Part 3. I think Part 2 and 3 are point/counterpoint and each have their intentional flaws. And the entire novel is an inquiry into poetics, as well as it's being Candida Wilton's story.

Andrew pompous and self-centered? I can't tell that from the text, not with any certainty, since there are many contradictory statements made about him, but we know some of the hazards of life with Candida -- they weren't well suited and the marriage was a mutual failure. Julia wouldn't have Andrew but how successful has she been in her choice of men? Her track record isn't a recommendation.

Candida keeps looking at her reflection to see what effect she's having (towel wrapped around her head, stranger's eyes at the fountain). She's interested in herself and the effect she creates; and writing about herself. Some of these characteristics of Candida would be useful as a writer.

She wasn't much wanted at home as a child and was raised in a conservative atmosphere but she's a grown up now. After a certain age, we have to stop blaming parents, or society, or health or wealth and accept responsibility for ourselves. I don't cry over the retired Admiral in Pirates of Penzance because he's a "poor orphan boy" so while I can understand and sympathze with Candida's childhood issues, I expect her to come to terms with them and behave as a mature adult. Candida may become self-aware, more responsible for her actions, and that change could mean happiness.

Marvelle

My own opinion is that Candida has a kind of Dissociative Identity Disorder which has fragmented her personality. I believe, too, that Margaret Drabble wrote this book in the separate-compartment, fragmented way we see it in order to reveal and guide the reader through Candida's physical-mental problem. DID is the kind of problem which brings many people to suicide.

I humbly submit that to suggest that a person who suffers from any kind of DID needs only to take responsibility for himself or herself to find a cure is like saying to an alcoholic, "If you'd take responsibility for yourself your alcoholism would disappear."

Mal

Surely there is hope for Candida should she wish to remedy her situation if she does have a mental illness but I am not convinced she does. The road to recovery is to admit one has a problem and then seek help. It takes a lot of guts but many have done it!

Carolyn

I agree, Carolyn. Candida doesn't have any mental illness that I can find in the text. The only personality issues I see for Candida are low self-esteem self-centered and that's why all the ugliness in her Diary and towards Sally and the garbage man etc. She doesn't handle surprises/fate well. Yet surely she's trying to find ways to change. Let's not wish any more issues on her.

Marvelle

She certainly has a lot of the symptoms.

Mal

Ellen's evaluation of her mother is one more view of Candida as mother and writer but I believe there are other, underlying meanings to the text. As Joan first remarked, this is a dual text. Ellen's Version in Part 3 is the counterpoint to the narrator's artistic argument in Part 2. Ellen's Version is both detached scientific technique and a critique generated by academia.

IMO Drabble is arguing with herself first and foremost, trying to sort out what she feels about literature and her place in it. I also believe that the text in Part 3 is both a jab at the academics for saying criticizing Drabble as well as a jab at her sister, Byatt, who is considered a scholar due to her degree and academic position. I think Drabble is saying that the academic critics are not all-knowing judges; and also that the scientific approach to communication is not a suitable vehicle by which to evaluate poetics. Some, not all, of Drabble's allusions in Part 2 were deliberately overdone, wrong and misleading; and this counterpoint also is full of fallacies.

Ellen says she's a speech therapist "in a research clinic attached to the university .... it is a world-famous clinic" (259-60)) and, despite her occupation she says "I don't have a mechanical speech problem myself, of the sort I work on, but I did find communication difficult when I was little, I still do." (261) Ellen: "I wasn't very good at the violin because I haven't got a very good ear ... " (260)

Ellen has trouble communicating, both speaking and hearing, she admits to not being able to learn languages, yet her professional field is communication.

Ellen has difficulty selecting words "I cannot describe how annoyed I am by my mother's infrequent references to me. No, let me be honest, I don't mean just annoyed, I mean wounded. Well, annoyed too. Hurt, wounded, annoyed, and angry" (258)At the clinic, Ellen says there's no successful therapy, that isn't their goal. What the clinic does is study the causes, rather than solutions, to speech problems and they investigate new theories, observe, collect data, and retest.

There are criticisms about Candida's writing which Ellen herself practices. There are also unacknowledged contradictions to Ellen's argument. For instance,

-- of her mother's volatile diary, "People don't write that kind of stuff down without secretly wanting somebody else to read it, do they?" (257) This is Ellen, writing on her mother's laptop.

-- About using Classical references: "I looked [mother's references up] in a Classical Dictionary. So what? Anyone could do that. What's that got to do with anything?" (268) However, Ellen misses the subtle allusions embedded in Part 2 and yet she herself mentions Ophelia and the immemorial bees.

-- Ellen says "There's plagiarism in that document [the Diary and Italian Journey] When she says her tears were 'as hot as tea', that's plagiarism. She lifted that phrase out of...Treasure Island ....There are bits of Goethe and Virgil in there that I can check on, but there may be other bits of Goethe and Virgil hidden away, unacknowledged." (262-3) From this we see that Ellen doesn't understand allusion versus plagiarism. Yet she half-grudgingly acknowledges that "I suppose they are well out of copyright..." (263)

-- Ellen complains that Candida referenced Hegel but "I've never read Hegel, and she never read Hegel. She wasn't well enough educated to read Hegel. Hegel is heavy going." (263)

You have to have a degree in philosophy before the Library Cops let you pull Hegel off the shelves? You can't read without that degree? And your daughter controls everything you read? And if Hegel is impossible for Ellen then Ellen decides that Hegel has to be impossible for mom?

The whole of Part 3 is riddled with many more inconsistencies. Is Part 2 or Part 3 a valid argument? Is there a middle ground to this point/counterpoint?

Marvelle

I love your explanation in #555. OK, I have something to "hang my hat on"... It makes sense out of this madness Drabble has created!

Lou

In her Post 510, Ginny said:

"A faked suicide, another new narrator, also fictitious, Ellen the daughter who reveals among other things that our Candida , she of the chaste and pure name, was a liar, or at best a fictitious being from the get go, or is she?"

The underlining above is mine. Since Ginny has said that the new narrator, Ellen, is also fictitious, who wrote Ellen's Version? I have read the whole book and have been told who created Ellen's voice and thoughts in Part 3. Since Ellen did not write the things you've quoted, Marvelle, it's necessary to take another look at the truth of what you've said in Post 555 despite the logic of your arguments.

I have to add here that not having an ear for the violin has nothing to do with hearing. I've known people with perfect pitch -- that is the ability to name a note when they hear its sound -- who have no talent or ability or ear for playing a musical instrument.

Mal

I agree, Lou, Marvelle has provided a grand explication of the inconsistancies between Candida' s diary entries and Ellen's version. There are many...and so much at play beneath the surface. A true palimpsest!

I'm also struck by another inconsistancy...the autopsy report indicates Ellen has a high blood alcohol count...can't remember the specifics of her stomach contents...but I seem to remember something about gin ...and that doesn't set quite right with me. I can't see Candida a solitary drinker. Where was she before her death? With her 'sisters'? Cynthia, the bartender? Or do you think alone? (Haven't read final section yet, so if it's mentioned, please don't reveal that tidbit, okay?) Although I don't see her as a solitary drinker, I still strongly suspect this was suicide, rather than an accident, I guess because the corrected diary smells like a suicide note to me.

This caught my eye in a Book Review yesterday's Washington Post - Quiet Desparation

"To be existential is to have those dark nights of the soul when the loneliness of existence becomes transparent and the structure of our confidence lies shattered around us."

I know I am frequently let down after a carefully planned trip is over...and need to throw myself into an absorbing new project to get over it...but WHAT HAPPENED to the seemingly happy Candida when she returned to London? Was she simply struck with the reality that nothing had really changed, that the trip had been her whole reason for existance and now there was nothing?

I've been thinking for the last few days about the risk involved in marrying someone like Andrew. I had an Andrew in my life...a bright, shiny star, who attracted everyone to his circle. I was...and probably still am in many ways more like Candida than not. Couldn't understand the interest he showed in me. Thought he was just giving me the treatment he gave to everyone else. Turned down marriage...although to me that would have been a dream come true. Couldn't risk what I thought would be rejection in time. But Candida did, didn't she? I guess I'm speaking more from my own experience in saying that...I see her taking the risk that Andrew really saw something in herself that she did not see. I know I'm not expressing myself clearly...but I do see risk on her part in her decision to marry him. On the other hand...why do you think HE married HER?

Stay warm, folks...our high in the DC area today will be 22! Time for a very fast dog walk...

Edit - Mal we were posting together. Back later...

Joan, I agree there was a risk in CW and Andrew's marriage. I think marriage is a risk period. Even when it took place in the 60's as CW's and mine did, when it was expected we would marry and raise a family, weather or not we had a career. Did I realize it was a risk? At 18 I don't think I knew the definition of risk. I'm thankful my choice turned out better than hers did. Wonder if Andrew saw Candida as a challenge? Opposites attract??

I love the use you all have made of the "palimpset". I read that and recognized what it meant... period. You all have taught me so much about reading. One more time, Thanks.

Lou

"To be existential is to have those dark nights of the soul when the loneliness of existence becomes transparent and the structure of our confidence lies shattered around us."

Love that Joan, does that mean we're all existentialists? hahahahaa

Since I was off yesterday, I printed out all your posts, about 50 of them, and read them carefully, you've made some wonderful points and asked some great questions.

Ginger, you are more welcome than spring any time you choose to come in!!!

The author here has done something different, structurally, how effective it is I guess, is a personal decision for each reader to make. In creating this character from a journal (explained not as a diary by "Ellen," because poor mom apparently was so unused to techno things that she could type, but she lacked the ability to type in March 1 or whatever in the text. Nice try, Margaret) the reader can share the inmost tender thoughts of the character, it's an old device we saw used recently in The Remains of the Day.

So the reader is caught up in Candida's story. The author has been very careful in her presentation of this story, for instance, the title, The Seven Sisters, what it really refers to, is not explained until Ellen's section, on page 267, the Daughters of Atlas. So in this are we to assume Ellen's voice is the more clear, and that we now have a full picture of Candida Wilton, the missing puzzle pieces?

In part II the reader goes along, buoyed by the new experiences and hope, and the information this "new" Third Person Omniscient Narrator conveys, who, as it turns out inexplicably, was Candida the Amazing Mind Reader herself. The "willing suspension of disbelief" the reader had put on in sympathy for this lonely person, begins to crumble, fueled by all of the classical inaccuracies, some of which we noted in this discussion, in Part II.

Thus the reader, hoping for the best and a wonderful life for Candida to come, comes to part III, Ellen's voice.

Now we all know our children see us differently, so we're not surprised to find a different picture developing. We are therefore not surprised to learn that Ellen has called, has sent flowers, has visited, even, her mother. We suspected as much.

We learn that Candida drank too much, that she lied, that she left a 15 year old (this is reinforced by the guilty "she's young yet," from Ellen, that she may have committed suicide, (and apparently relishes the "I told you so," effect on Ellen), that she actually DID have guilt in what happened in her marriage, that she wasn't very nice to her children, that Dad probably did have an affair with a 15 year old who then drowned herself or something, who knows, and that she never made it to Cumae.

What we don't know is what the author accomplishes by telling us this? Why are we told this? Does this strengthen or make weak our suspension of disbelief, our identification with the character?

The whole point of the trip was for her to ask the Sibyl and get an answer, in Part II she went, she (as we noted) did not go IN the cave, and she "asked," but as Joan P said, what did she ask? And what was the answer?

Now Ellen says she did not go at all.

"Why would she invent a trip to Cumae?" asks "Ellen" in the last line of Part III?

Who is that addressed to, Gentle Reader? You? Candida? Who?

Why do the glosses continue asks ginny at the beginning of Part IV?

Why did Drabble continue at ALL to Part IV? I like the idea of taking Part III and Part IV separately, that was Lou's idea and it's a super one. The reader, having entered the kingdom of Drabble, the willing suspension of disbelief, pulls for the character, and is devastated in Part III when the character is revealed to be dead, possibly a suicide (drowning yet!) and the revealing details of another "voice" come out.

Up till then it held together, somewhat, plot wise, etc., but the author just could NOT let it rest, and continued on to Part IV. What fresh hell may we expect there?

If the book had stopped right here, what would be your impression of it? Is it finished? Is it tied together? What is the effect of Ellen's disclosures on you? Do you have more or less compassion for Candida?

Marvelle asked, "what do you see as the theme?"

If the book stopped HERE what would you say the theme is?

Mme and Malryn saiid, "Why did she not go?"

Why do you think? I personally don't think she went anywhere. With anybody.

Thank you for all the links, and information. We're jealous of your LUNCH, MME AND MARVELLE!!!

Pedln brings up the epigraph from Luke. What bearing does it have on this story?

If the book stopped HERE and Part III was the end, what's the theme of the book? It's a hard set of questions focusing on Part III, but it's important for the denouement coming tomorrow.

ginny

The Pleiades were the daughters of Atlas. I thought we'd been comparing the Aeneid journey Seven Sisters to the Pleiades all along?

I make Martha a little older than 15 when her parents were divorced. Obviously Andrew had custody of the girl. If Candida had been granted custody, she would not have been able to leave Suffolk because of the girl's school situation unless she had permission from the court. I was in a similar situation when my marriage ended. I had custody of my 14 year old daughter, and had to stay in a place much too expensive for the alimony income I had because my daughter's school was located there and the legal terms of the custody stated that fact. In order to change those terms, I'd have had to hire a lawyer and go to court, something I could not afford with the small alimony and $100.00 a month child support I received.

Speaking of Andrew, I think he married Candida because she appeared obedient and docile and easy to manipulate. From what I read about him, he was quite the manipulator in everything he did. Though I've known some men like Andrew, the man I married was very different from him. A quiet, studious, scientific-minded, silent loner he was. But he also was a manipulator. That was true in many marriages when I was young.

It's my impression from the fictitious autopsy that Candida went on binges. Though her refrigerator contained low fat yogurt and milk and olives crusted with brine, she binged on samosas, which I learned are fried turnovers stuffed with vegetables or meat, and she drank gin, which she claimed she didn't like. This binge activity is a symptom of the personality disorder I mentioned yesterday. When one side of a fragmented personality is in control, there is moderation. When another side takes control, there is excess.

Part One of this book shows to me anyway, the facets of Candida's fragmentation. She's trying to pull herself together in this part by flitting back and forth as she analyzes the things which bother her, and she's unable to see things or herself as a whole.

In Part Two of this book, she's writing after she went on the Aeneid journey with her friends. She's more objective, having had that outside-herself experience, and writes in the third person. She lies about the trip to Cumae because Candida is always fighting between what she thinks she should do and what she wants to do. I believe she thought she should go to Cumae and didn't want to, really, because it would have brought a confrontation, not with the Sibyl, but with herself. Because she thought she should have done this and didn't, she lies about it. She does this quite frequently in the book.

If Candida wrote Part Three, she is taking a different objective look at herself, a hard one, too. In order to do this, she would have had to kill off her fragmented self. Essentially, this is what is happening in Part Three, regardless who wrote it. To me, this is yet another example of Candida's trying to piece together the parts of herself.

I believe this book is about a woman who is trying to be whole and trying to stay alive. Part Four is essential in this book because the reader (or at least one reader right here) wants to know if Candida was able to piece together the fragments of herself and go on living.

Mal

Andrew was considered quite the romantic catch by the schoolgirls. They drew straws, not literally of course, according to Candida and she got the short straw. Candida married Andrew I believe partly in competition with the other girls and mainly in the expectation of happiness and a changed life.

There's only the text to look at to try to answer why Andrew married Candida but believe she was the right sort for academia, his targeted career?, at the time of their marriage. She was raised conservatively and could blend in; she had a decent enough if limited education; Candida was pretty enough but not flashy or independent like Julia which would have been too individual for the academic life? Candida said she loved Andrew, or the romance of Andrew, when they married. We don't hear from Andrew to know if he loved her or not.

Joan, I think Candida would have been at another level of expectation when she came back from her trip. Everything would be different now, or so Candida thinks, because of her pilgrimage. Only it wasn't different because she was the same. Just as with her marriage, just as with the money and the ring in the pool, this is the expectation fed by imagination and followed by disappointment. No matter the change of locale or the material life, the old Candida never dies to be reborn as the new Candida.

I loved the article, Joan, Existentialism American-style. I posted yesterday -- 5-7 or so posts back -- a paragraph from a link deliniating Camus' beliefs as well as his thoughts on suicide. Has Drabble given us a counterpoint to existentialism?

So far three sections, Diary/1st person POV; Travelogue, Omniscient POV; Biography, limited 3rd Person POV. Do we know Candida any better for all these POVs?

We know we can't trust Ellen's Version, too many lies and blind spots in her thinking. We can't trust Ellen's Version any more than we could trust Candida's Diary or the narrator in the travelogue. They're all unreliable narrators and we have to look for clues in the text.

I see within Seven Sisters the plot of Candida's life as a divorced older woman living alone and her relationships; an inquiry into poetics; existentialism -- all are closely interwined.

Marvelle

I can't speculate on what happens in Part 4, or let it inform my impressions of the previous parts, until we get there on the 28th.

Marvelle

We'll have to agree to disagree, Malryn. Andrew was older than Candida and he's ambitious and Candida had implied that he knew where he was going in life.

Tisi, I missed your latest post until now. What do the narrative tricks do to me as a reader? It makes me suspicious -- there goes my suspension of disbelief -- and disconnected emotionally from Candida. As I said earlier, I don't know enough about Candida to care about her as a character.

I think this was Drabble's intention. In order to get readers to see the palimpset, she had to shake us out of the usual way of reading for plot only -- like the Buddhist monk, bonking a novice on the head with a pot to get him to see outside his everyday and limited parameters.

Marvelle

I agree, Tisi, that Candida never went anywhere physically. And as for not making it to the Sibyl's Cave and seeing the Sibyl, she didn't need to. Part 2 is the Italian Journey as inspired by Goethe. When first thinking of the trip in Part 1, Candida chants "Nach Cuma, Nach Cuma" -- To Cuma, To Cuma -- which is a reference to Goethe's poem The Wanderer aka The Traveller. Goethe wrote the poem without having travelled to Italy or the cave. His actual, physical travels, after which Italian Journey was written, happened many years later.

In the Wanderer, a man is on a pilgrimage to find answers from the Sibyl. He walks along the road and meets a young woman who takes him to a hut by the lake. It is here that the traveller recognizes the endless cycle of nature, the circling of time, with the realization that the new hut is built on the stones of an ancient structure and they're now one; time and nature and life.

The man asks the woman where the road he was travelling leads and she replies "Nach Cuma" -- to Cuma -- and he decides to continue up the road. We don't see him reach the Sibyl but that doesn't matter, we've already witnessed the climax. The revelation happened with the new structure built onto the ancient one and that's the climax. The rest of the travel would be the anti-climax, the expected spiritual rebirth, and is not necessary to the poem. Here's a translation of the poem, rather awkward, but you can see the ideas in the poem:

THE WANDERER

The narrator also follows that pattern -- climax then anti-climax -- in the parts of the novel we've read. The narrator would not have needed for Candida to reach the Sibyl. If the narrator is Candida then perhaps -- because she knew the poem, Nach Cuma, Nach Cuma -- she was following Goethe and she knew she didn't need to reach the Sibyl. It's the journey rather than the destination maybe? Or is Candida unable to face life as the anti-climax -- expectation fed by imagination, followed by disappointment?

Marvelle

Candida Wilton interests me because she is woman, and I cannot turn my back on her or her plight, a plight common to too many women in this world, present and past -- Dido, for example.

Mal

Schubert wrote a wonderful song called "The Wanderer". Turn on your sound before you click the link below.

Der Wanderer an den Mond by Franz Schubert

Cool site, Mal!

Here's where Drabble talks about writing where she mentions the fragmented Virginia Woolf that I first mentioned, and game-playing etc. The interview was conducted in 2000 when Seven Sisters would have been on her mind. I found this link a few days ago, you can click on text only if you want the interview on one full page.

DRABBLE'S POETICS

Marvelle

The term "counterpoint" has been used here in relation to this book. I studied counterpoint and have written contrapuntal music. Counterpoint is the addition of lines (themes) to one or more existing lines:

"a. Melodic material that is added above or below an existing melody (theme).
b. The technique of combining two or more melodic lines (themes) in such a way that they establish a harmonic relationship while retaining their linear individuality.
c. A composition or piece that incorporates or consists of contrapuntal writing."

The fugue is perhaps the highest form of counterpoint. It incorporates the weaving of many different themes and voices into a whole. These are woven together by means of progression through many keys to a harmonic resolution in the original key. The fugue developed from a simple canon where one voice is overlapped by one or more other voices, but not in as complex a way as the fugue form. Counterpoint is different from harmonic writing where chunks of harmonies, or chords, are interspersed among melodic lines or themes.

Though Margaret Drabble's book is contrapuntal in some ways, counterpoint is far too restrictive a form for her writing, as demonstrated in the interview Marvelle posted.

Of course, if the word "counterpoint" is used to mean "I make a point and you counter with another", that is an entirely different thing.

Mal

In my little paperback dictionary, Webster's New World Dictionary , counterpoint, in addition to the two music definitions, also says:

3. a thing set up in contrast with another.

I assumed that's what was meant here.

All the time I am reading this book I think to myself Drabble has ruined the plot by trying to be too clever! I am waiting to comment on Part 3 in depth until we get to Part 4. To me I must comment on both parts at the same time to make sense of the whole. I am going to pass this book to others to get their reaction too. What will the younger generation make of it? I will test it on my daughter who is much the age of Candida's children. It will be very interesting to hear their interpretation and to see who they empathise with. This book will mean different things to different generations I am sure!

Carolyn

Since I pointed out some of the many fallacies in Ellen's argument, it's clear that any musical application would be inappropriate.

There used to be a political show many years ago on televsion called Point/Counterpoint which offered opposing viewpoints and there was no public confusion at that time about the show's title.

The OED Short Version includes as a definition: 'a contrary point (in an argument)' and 'the opposite point.'

If point/counterpoint really confuses anyone, then just think of two opposing sides in an argument.

Marvelle

For some reason -- probably because I am a musician -- I have been able to relate musical forms to forms of writing. The simplest stories and books I've read can be related to the Sonata Form. (The Sonata Form usually is used in the first and last movements of a sonata or symphony.)

In the Sonata Form, themes A, B, C are written in the tonic (or "home") key. This is followed by a development and embellishments into other keys and a recapitulation to the original key. That is followed by themes A, B, C in the original (home) key. There comes a resolution, and sometimes there follows a Coda, or afterthought, like the gloss at the end of Part Four.

This form of composition is prescribed and restrictive. Counterpoint is even more restrictive. My point, after reading the interview with Margaret Drabble, is that her writing cannot be limited to, or restricted by, any prescribed form.

I have already said, "Of course, if the word "counterpoint" is used to mean "I make a point and you counter with another, that is an entirely different thing."

(Ha ha, don't knock it! Your classical music education has just been enhanced by a different kind of look at The Seven Sisters!)

Mal

Tisi-phus:-

If you think I am out of line here, I'd like to tell you that I told Charlotte Snitzer my ideas about comparing writing with the composition of music a few years ago. She very much agreed. I miss Charlotte very, very much. She was more than a good friend. We had much in common, Charlotte and I.

Mal

Tisi hahahaha hasn't read any of the submissions above yet, will now print them all out and go enjoy, but all submissions are valid in the Books, all are welcome, the only thing that is not welcome in the Books or is in the No Fly Zone is the suggestion we destroy the Books, other than that, everything’s on the table.

I'm running late and wanted to open up Part IV this morning for everybody: A Dying Fall. and the Case of the Little Golden Christmas Tree.

I have a real story about a real Golden Bough, I wasn't going to tell it but I am now. ahahahaha

Well speaking of music, as ol Frankie Sinatra used to say, “Well now, the end is near and so I face the final curtain,” you know what?

The words of My Way are just as appropriate to this discussion as they were in Remains, in fact, they are more germane, no?

And now the end is near
So I face the final curtain
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case of which I'm certain
I've lived a life that's full
I've traveled each and every highway
And more, much more than this
I did it my way

Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exception
I planned each charted course
Each careful step along the byway
Oh, and more, much more than this
I did it my way

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you know
When I bit off more than I could chew
But through it all when there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all and I stood tall

And did it my way

I've loved, I've laughed and cried
I've had my fails, my share of losing
And now as tears subside
I find it all so amusing
To think I did all that
And may I say, not in a shy way Oh, no, no not me

I did it my way

For what is a man, what has he got
If not himself, then he has not
To say the words he truly feels
And not the words he would reveal
The record shows I took the blows

And did it my way

The “not in a shy way” doesn’t fit, but other than that, it’s remarkable, and I want to entertain your thoughts also in contrast, for those who have read it, this account and Remains vis a vis who is the most selfish.

But for now, speaking of Part IV, the Dying Fall:

WHY is Part IV here? WHAT does the title mean? HOW do you feel about the narrator now? HOW do you feel about the author? Has the author jerked you around and for what reason?

Penny for your thoughts

ginny penny

Twelfth Night -- Shakespeare

“If music be the food of love, play on;
Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken, and so die.
That strain again! it had a dying fall.
O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound
That breathes upon a bank of violets,
Stealing and giving odour!"

Exodus 13:17 - 17:16

But it was not Moses. While Moses prayed and everyone else stood around arguing about who should be first, Nachson ben Amminidab, the leader of the tribe of Judah took the fateful first leap. It was he alone who, trusting in God's salvific power, was willing to risk his life. And indeed, it was the ultimate risk. Nachson could not swim and was floundering badly in the water. It had reached his nostrils and he was in danger of drowning.

Midrash says that Nachson cries out: "Save me, O God; for the waters are come over my soul... I am come into deep waters, and the flood overwhelms me." At that moment, Moses was standing and reciting long prayers before the holy one, blessed be He. Then God said to him: "Moses, my friend is sinking in the water and the sea is closing in upon him: the enemy is pursuing and you stand there reciting long prayers." Said Moses to God: "Ruler of the world, what can I do?" And He replied: "Lift up your rod and stretch forth your hand."

Reading part 4 for the LAST time, I noticed updates and chat were in first person and good news in third. She, ole’ CW, can’t believe good things are happening to her?? So she has to relate them in third person?? She really did contemplate suicide?? But she got past that and now has a good full life. Maybe?? And I think for me that’s the most telling thing about this book… I have been lied to so many times, I don’t trust the author. I can’t feel good about CW even now.

Lou

Candida: "And I have been lying to myself at quite a deep level, for most of my life." (280)
What an admission! Layer by layer and through a circuitous route, Candida has confronted her lies and stripped them from her by writing them in this unusual journal. She has not only faced the fact of her own death, she fabricated it -- better that than jumping in the canal.

I don't feel as if Margaret Drabble has "jerked me around." I was more interested in Candida and what happened to her than anything else in the book; perhaps that's why. I'm glad she decided to live and not die. She has bitten the head off the snake, and now will live.

She goes to Ellen's wedding and meets two men. One, Stuart Courage, seems like a very nice man. Thoughts of marriage actually go through Candida's head. What a change in her! It was a pleasant scene with her, Martha and Ellen at the lunch table, I thought. She seems to be establishing a good relationship with her two daughters, and she's to be a grandmother.

She has saved her life, and she has saved the Christmas tree. I have noticed that people who want help often go around rescuing things. I don't think Candida will have to rescue anything else, and she has a scar on her leg as a reminder.

The ending of this book leaves me hopeful for Candida Wilton. I know now that she will live as long as she lives. That's really what this book has been about -- whether Candida would choose to live or die. Of course, Drabble had to write The Dying Fall. The book would have been incomplete without it.

I am interested in what Ellen does as a speech therapist. Candida tells the reader that Ellen stammers. Margaret Drabble stammers, too.

Mal

Margaret Drabble on stammering

"Thus Spake Zarathustra, in the translation by Alexander Tille:

"And verily, the sight I saw, its like I had never seen. I saw a young Shepherd, writhing, choking, quivering, with face distorted, from whose mouth a black and heavy snake hung down.

"Saw I ever so much loathing and wan horror in one face? My hand tore at the serpent and tore - in vain! I could not tear the serpent from his throat. Then a voice within me cried: Bite! Bite!

"Bite off its head! Bite! - thus cried the voice of my horror, my hate, my loathing, my pity, all the good and evil in me cried out?

"The Shepherd bit, as my cry counselled him: he bit with all his strength! He spat the snake's head far from him - then sprang up, no longer a shepherd, no longer a man, but one transfigured, light-encompassed, one that laughed!"

In the article I just linked, Margaret Drabble says that stammerers often don't like to use the telephone. I wonder if this is why Ellen disliked using the phone?

Mal

"Our little, pitiful, feeble struggles. Sparrows and farthings, farthings and sparrows. Oh, we are the small change, and we know that." page 276 How can I build on that one?? Could we tell CW the scripture about how He knows the number of hairs on our head... and the birds of the field and He knows when they fall..??? Would she care? Would she listen?

Have you wondered what she is knitting?? Wonder if it's baby clothes?? I'm so glad she's purchased wonderful ebony needles in Finland.. (Did she shop on her Aenied trip?) and found the wonderful yarns seductive... and perfers knitting to solitaire!!!

Lou

Still running behind but I FORGOT, Marvelle, I'm so sorry, have so much going on here, I forgot to post these URLs for Marvelle who is going to be off today:

They both look very illustrative:

Broch & 'The Death of Virgil' and

Who Reads 'The Death of Virgil'?

Fascinating, thank you ALL for all your links and contributory information and to Pat W who puts them in the heading and keeps the Questions up to date.

Lou: knitting for somebody else versus doing solitaire for yourself?

I LOVE that on the voices signalling change and have put it in the heading, great point, still reading all the back posts.

ginny

13. The changing of voice has happened throughout the book. To me this reveals fragmentation in Candida's personality. There may be some of that throughout the rest of her life, but I'm satisfied that she's a whole lot better now than she was before.

Mal

Did you notice that Candida laughs on Page 291? How many times have we seen her laugh in this book?

Mal

Tisi, I have a short break now and then should be able to get back into the discussion in a couple of hours.

Question 1: What does the title The Dying Fall mean? What purpose does Part 4 serve? etc etc

A dying fall is an ancient poetic technique which is the next genre used in this book -- Part 1 Diary; Part 2 Travel/Journey Book; Part 3 Biography; now Part 4 Poetry. Each are ways the writers -- Candida and/or Drabble -- are exploring how to understand themselves and the characters and how to present them to the readers.

Poetry and The Dying Fall: in poetry the dying fall, also known as a feminine ending (!), is a line ending on an unaccented syllable. It's often seen as an iamb with the last stressed part missing. The dying fall is a good technique to use if you want the reader to pause at the end of a line, giving readers a sort of breathing space to consider the line's intent. (In contrast to the dying fall's feminine ending, a poetic line with a masculine ending will end with an accented syllable.) The feminine ending of the dying fall fades away and doesn't have a definite ending. I believe this definition in every way fits with the title of Part 4.

Prose has adopted the dying fall as the anti-climax; there is a build-up of tension which keeps building and building but then there's the letting down of expectation through the dying fall which doesn't fulfill the promise of the build-up.

Dying Fall would have another meaning since Candida fell and is or isn't dying -- we readers are suspicious of the writer by now, aren't we?

Wordsworth is Drabble's favorite poet and he's famous in his own right as a poet but also for his frequent use of the dying fall technique. I'm including links to some of his poems. The first one is Laodamia which was inspired by Virgil's Aeneid.

According to bartleby.com, the Laodamia is Wordsworth at his ambiguous best and Wordsworth doesn't describe the evil or woe completely and this stirs the reader to complete the half-drawn picture of misery. There's the Olympian serenity at the summit contrasted by the lower ground, earth, where humans must live. Laodamia is human, not Olympian, and she dies of a broken heart and "it seems hard that she should be punished for it as for mediated suicide."

LAODAMIA

SEVEN SISTERS

UPON THE PUNISHMENT OF DEATH

The poetic dying fall technique is ambiquous, without an ending or climax and that is the purpose of the title of The Dying Fall for Part 4. To end the novel at Part 3 would have meant Candda and readers had reached closure and obviously Drabble didn't want that to happen. The ambiguous ending shows the uncertainty of life, perhaps that humans are subject to fate. My opinion, which is subject to change from insights you all provide -- my opinion is that the rest of Part 4 seems to carry a message that the answer is to live your life and not to wait in passive expectation for fate to drop happiness in your lap. I'm not saying that Candida got that message; we can't be sure what will happen with her.

Marvelle

Wow! Teach me to go away and do taxes! Just when I am about to give up on Drabble, along you all come with incredible insights!

I love your post 555, Marvelle, though I think Mal has something when she says we have to rethink Part III in light of the fact that it’s really Candida herself who is writing this, especially Ellen’s feeling of educational superiority, which would seem to be Candida’s feelings of educational inferiority.

Mal: She lies about the trip to Cumae because Candida is always fighting between what she thinks she should do and what she wants to do. Or what she should have done and what she really did. I think second-guessing ourselves can be truly detrimental to our well-being.

Lou: "Our little, pitiful, feeble struggles. Sparrows and farthings, farthings and sparrows. Oh, we are the small change, and we know that." page 276 You sharp-eyed girl, there’s the epigraph revisited and turned upside down, the epigraph meaning we are all important in God’s eyes, but to Candida, it just means that we are insignificant small potatoes.

Marvelle: What a provocative interview with Drabble your link is. I’m going to have to give myself more time to reflect on it, but I see evidence of Mal’s fragmentation there.

And a great explanation of the poetic "dying fall!" I am constantly amazed at my ignorance.

There’s another citation we’ve missed, from T.S. Eliot's "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock (we’ve heard from him before, n’est-ce pas?)

For I have known them all already, known them all:
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
I know the voices dying with a dying fall
Beneath the music from a farther room.
So how should I presume?

or from his "The Portrait of a Lady"

Well! and what if she should die some afternoon,
Afternoon grey and smoky, evening yellow and rose;
Should die and leave me sitting pen in hand
With the smoke coming down above the housetops;
Doubtful, for a while
Not knowing what to feel or if I understand
Or whether wise or foolish, tardy or too soon . . .
Would she not have the advantage, after all?
This music is successful with a 'dying fall'
Now that we talk of dying--
And should I have the right to smile?

Or this on St. Cecelia.

Her role as patron saint of music is said to originate with her wedding day, when she sat alone, and sang to God, praying for help.

In honoring Saint Cecelia, people have often honored music itself, and its transformative, uplifting powers. On the occasion of Saint Cecelia's Day--celebrated in London through the 18th century--the poet Alexander Pope evokes the beauty of a symphony:

In broken air, trembling, the wild music floats;
Till by degrees, remote and small,
The strains decay,
And melt away
In a dying, dying fall.

----------------------------
Mal: Your Exodus quote doesn’t look anything like my Exodus. The closest I could find was this: "Exodus 14:16 Lift up your rod, and stretch out your hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground."

There’s also Exodus 7:19 Yahweh said to Moses, "Tell Aaron, `Take your rod, and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt, over their rivers, over their streams, and over their pools, and over all their ponds of water, that they may become blood; and there shall be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood and in vessels of stone.`" And thus with the rest of the plagues.

Then there’s Matthew 12:10 And behold, there was a man having a withered hand. … 12:13 Then he says to the man, Stretch forth your hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored as healthy as the other.

Which, I wonder, applies to Candida? I rather think the last.

I also think Drabble is a very complicated lady.

Madame, go HERE to see the UJA Federation of New York site where I found what I posted from Exodus. I assume it's from the Hebrew Bible.

Mal

When I spoke first of the fragmented self as part of the novel's structure I did so from the clues in the text. But later I found the interview in which Drabble speaks about writing as well as Virginia Woolf's fragmentation. That interview confirmed my belief that it was VW's Diary that inspired Part 1 and about her split within herself.

Thanks Mal for the link on Drabble's speech on public speaking. It's interesting to read of Drabble's stammer. The serpent has a lot to do with speech but may encompass more layers -- biting off wisdom for oneself, affirming the cycle of life and more.

In the Prologue to Thus Spake Zarathustra (TSZ), Zarathustra (Z), despairs of finding followers in his vision of the overman. He sees an eagle in the sky with a serpent coiled lightly about its neck -- the two were companionable although opposites, and not enemies. And, to paraphrase, Z says 'that is what I should do is follow the animals -- the wisest under the sun (serpent) and the proudest under the sun (eagle) -- and they should both be within me. If wisdom forsakes me -- alas! it loves to flee -- then let my pride fly with my folly.'

Symbolically the serpent stands for the body, knowledge from the body/heart, and the earth. While the eagle is the spirit and the air.

Z says he realizes he was wrong to recruit followers from the herd and it was wrong for him to take on the role of herdsman & hound; intead he should look for companions not followers. When the shepherd bites the head of the serpent and spits it out and he was transfigured within a shining light and he laughed.

And Z says: "My longing for that laughter groweth in me, oh, how can I still endure to live! And how could I endure to die at present! Thus spake Zarathustra."

I believe that Drabble's thoughts about public speaking, the stammer, the sense of obligation to speak, the fear of not having anything worthwhile to say could fit in with the symbology of TSZ. The novel is a stammer and much more. There's still the recognition of mortality, the pull of life and death, communication and wisdom -- particularly wisdom according to TSZ.

Some other ideas from TSZ are Z's exhortation to acknowledge your physical nature and to live out of the body's power and resources; you can choose your time to die; life is a process; all that is straight lies; all truth is crooked; time is a circle. And most people live in the past while Z had lived in the future, but time as a circle invalidates the tenses, and one should live in the moment to encompass all of time.

Perhaps biting the serpent's head is biting into, and affirming, the circle of life and death and being in the moment? Someone with more knowledge than I have -- TSZ was never my cuppa -- of TSZ might able to straighten out my thoughts and fill in the blanks I've left about potential meanings.

Marvelle

I tell you what, I agree with Mme, I am doubly amazed at how ignorant I am and have tremendously enjoyed EVERY reference to the Dying Fall, actually gasped at one of them, my goodness what valuable information, thank you Malryn and Marvelle and Mme!

Thank you Lou for calling our attention to the inverted sparrows, and to all of you for the marvelous links and quotes, it’s added SOO much to our understanding of the end.

Malryn thank you for the Moses connection with the stretch out your hand, the last gloss in the book.

For some reason I thought that “Ellen’s” description of the Seven Sisters was the more authoritative, I realize we had been comparing the..what I thought were the….Seven Sisters to the Pleiades but I had not realized, dummy that I am, I thought the actual travelers WERE the Seven.

I very much enjoyed the Wanderer, Marvelle, had to read it twice because I thought the WOMAN was the Goddess herself and am still not sure. Hahahahaha Pearls before swine I believe.

Ahhaahah

Enjoyed the reference to the music as well Malryn and the Schubert Wanderer, by golly you all have outdone yourselves here and I await Carolyn’s take on Parts III and IV together!

Lou you say this is the last time? hahahahaa

This is about the 3rd for me now on Part IV and I’m horrified to find, creeping out something else!!??!! , am not sure, but I think I’ll beat it to death, but it’s very disturbing and will post it early tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahaha

You guys are so sparkling it’s amazing, you…what’s the word…..DAZZLE! You’ve truly outdone yourselves on this last part.

Malryn good point on the telephone and stuttering, I see Drabble says one of them, Andrew? Considers the phone torture.

I think Lou was making a specific point about the specific voice changes meaning something, do we find those same meanings throughout the book? If so it’s even more significant and I thought it was pretty darn sharp in the first place.

I had not noticed Candida laughing, good point Malryn, but I do note a subtlety and humor in this last part I have missed in the rest.

OK here’s a biggie: the gloss:

She climbs over
the fence in
search of
salvation.

Ok, she is in search again, this time of “salvation.”

What form is it going to take and did she find it?

Bad, very bad, Golden Bough/ Christmas Tree story tomorrow.

Tisi-phus

I see a lot of the serpent in Part IV talking about life and death and wisdom so I think the ending quote would be from the bible with the serpent. This is in Exodus when Moses and Aaron are afraid to confront the Pharoah and the Lord tells them to grab the serpent and use it. [After I first posted this message I went over previous posts because I didn't want to repeat anybody's ideas. Turns out we have the same ideas as to gloss but chose different sections of the bible. It's kind of nice to see that. Funny how each of us find one section more intriguing than another in the bible?]

I chose Exodus 4 as important because that is the point at which Moses is first told to grab the serpent and he does -- I guess a climactic moment. And another climactic moment in Exodus which is the first time the rod/snake is used.

Exodus 4:1-4

"And the Lord said unto him, what is that in thy hand? And he said, A rod.

And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.

And the Lord said unto Moses, Stretch forth thy hand, and take it by the tail. And he stretched forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand.

Exodus 7:8-12

And the Lord spoke unto Moses and uto Aaron, saying,

Wen Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Show a miracle for you: then thou shall say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.

And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commmanded: and Aaron case down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, theyalso did in like manner with their enchatments,

For they cast down every man their rod, and they became serpents: but Aarons rod swallowed up their rods.

From that came the ability and courage to poison the waters and the parting of the sea and crossing to freedom -- all very symbolic as the bible is wont to be.

There may be better literary illustrations of the use of the imagery of "stretch forth thy hand" but here is one such:

'We walk through life, as through a narrow path, with a thin curtain drawn around it; behind are ranged rich portraits, airy harps are strung; yet we will not stretch forth our hands and lift aside the veil, to catch glimpses of the one or sweep the chords of the other.... yet to all this we are indifferent, insensible, and seem intent only on the present vexation, the future disappointment.'

-- William Hazlitt, 'A Farewell to Essay-writing'

Marvelle

Sorry for the typos on the previous post. It was too late to correct them. Rats! This proves I need to take a break.

Marvelle

Part three and four.

Candida certainly is one confused lady. Part three I think is written as a confession. Candida acknowledges her failures. However she is probably being a bit paranoic about Ellen's opinon of her intellect. Candida is not stupid. Drabbles main characters in the two books I have read so far are pretty dysfunctional. She has a fixation on mothering. In both books the main characters are ineffectual and cold mothers. Does Drabble consider that she was a cold mother? Was Drabble's mother an absent minded intellectual who lacked mothering skills? I will have to read more Drabble to see if this mothering thing comes up again. If it does Drabble obviously needs some sort of therapy. She has a bad self image I think! I knew a couple of kids who had very clever Mums and they were certainly preoccupied with their work more than their kids.

If I look back at my mothering skills I could not say I was the perfect Mum at all! I was hopeless with infants and only began to have a worthwhile relationship with them once they could talk properly. Even then I would not say I would get a prize in the field. I am a much better Mum now than I ever was! I grew up! As they say better late than never! So I think from my own experience there is hope for Candida and Ellen!

I shall not comment on the Greek classic connections as I am not qualified to do so and to be perfectly honest I am more interested in the main plot of the novel! The rest makes it confusing as I am no scholar myself.

I have enjoyed the discussion here however and you are all pretty sharp ladies!

Have to get off now as my internet time is over at 5pm until 11pm tonight. (I have a discount plan)

Carolyn

Marvelle, I came across the serpent thing in Exodus, but didn't put it together with Zarathustra. Good thinking.

I still like the withered hand one (for one thing the words are the same, Stretch forth your hand), but as a kind of faith thing—her personality, if you will, was withered, and she needed to have the faith that if she just believed, she could find whatever it was that was calling her.

And I thought what I quoted from the United Jewish Association of New York web site applied to Candida:

"Nachson could not swim and was floundering badly in the water. It had reached his nostrils and he was in danger of drowning.

"Midrash says that Nachson cries out: 'Save me, O God; for the waters are come over my soul... I am come into deep waters, and the flood overwhelms me.' At that moment, Moses was standing and reciting long prayers before the holy one, blessed be He. Then God said to him: 'Moses, my friend is sinking in the water and the sea is closing in upon him: the enemy is pursuing and you stand there reciting long prayers.' Said Moses to God: 'Ruler of the world, what can I do?' And He replied: "Lift up your rod and stretch forth your hand.' "

Salvation. Candida knew that she was drowning, and I believe she wanted to be rescued, saved, but she had to solve some problems because she knew the only one to save her was herself. She rescued the Christmas tree and put it back where it was originally. She "saved" the tree, which I think was a symbol of her saving herself. Remember this gloss? "She seeks salvation in a plastic bag"? (125) She did the same thing when she "rescued" the plastic bag from drowning and put it where it belonged.

The long process Candida took to save her life is reflected in the way she examined herself. First, in the first person; then in the third; then through her daughter's eyes. This process was her biting the head off the snake, something I mentioned in my post yesterday.

The switch back and forth between first and third person voices in The Dying Fall shows me that though she's come a long way, Candida is still in the process of putting the parts of herself together, a process (also as I said yesterday) might last the rest of her life.

I can understand Candida's inversion of the epigraph. To me it shows her recovery thus far and her acknowledgment that only she can save her life. What single god is there who has the time to consider all the problems and troubles of the billions of people on earth? Candida has stopped leaning on some ethereal lover or stranger on the other side.

At the end of the book, Candida says:

"The sky, tonight, is streaked with blood above the dying city. It bleeds for me now that I bleed no more. I am filled with expectation. What is it that is calling me?

Stretch forth your hand, I say, stretch for your hand."

In what I quoted, Moses asks God what he should do about Nachson who can't swim and is drowning: "Stretch forth your hand" is God's answer. The use of this quote here says to me that Candida is finally strong enough to look outside herself and perhaps help save someone else.

Mal

I chose Exodus 4 because that's the part which shows the power of the rod become a snake (like Christmas tree is a rod become a snake) and that was the inception of trust and faith; of grabbing your power; of overcoming the fear of wisdom & life; of using that power. But Candida gets things wrong doesn't she? She reverses meanings as Lou so brillantly showed with the "sparrows/farthings" turned upside down. Lou, no I don't think Candida would listen to us; she wouldn't care.

In Exodus the rod became a serpent and Moses followed the Lord's command to 'stretch forth thy hand' and grab the serpent by the tail; Moses did this and the serpent became a powerful rod.

However, Candida stretched forth her hand like Moses and the rod/tree became a serpent in her hand and bit her. Barbed wire, ouch, that's nasty stuff! And Candida fled from the snake. She didn't save the tree as it's back in its old position and "I don't suppose anyone else will try to rescue it." No, she didn't save the tree although she casually wonders if she should have taken it with her. Then she decides no, leave the tree, don't grab it, as she sits there with her Dido-wound and rejects Sisyphus. In the Aeneid even if people find the Golden Bough, only the chosen could pluck it from the tree. Candida was not chosen -- meaning she chose not to -- unlike Aeneas or Moses.

Marvelle

Is it possible that many parts of what each one of us has said here about this sick, troubled woman can be applied to her, her predicament and her salvation?

Mal

Mal: I certainly think so. I, too, think of her as a "drowning" woman in the sense that she was losing her battle with her own ....what???...image/mental health/attitude toward life/suffocation of her own life?

She's trying desperately to "keep her head above water" and seek her salvation...ie, a "real" life for herself???

I'll be away for a matter of weeks beginning tomorrow morning, so thank you all for a great discussion now.

I hope to catch up with you all in another discussion down the road here somewhere!

The Aeneid is Roman mythology used to show the spiritual rebirth of Aeneas and the foundation of Rome, and Seven Sisters keeps alluding to it. It's only through combining plot and allusion that we can see the layers of meaning that enriches Drabble's work. This is the fun of a close read. If the author chooses to use allusions and symbols and other literary techniques, then I feel I should respect her work by looking at all of it. The fact that I don't want to see Candida die is immaterial to my searching for what Drabble has Candida doing. I'm still searching although I'm now pretty certain that Candida chooses death. None of us can claim to be the fictional Candida? so a close look at the text to see what Candida chose is valid.

I read Hermann Broch's Death of Virgil after I saw it mentioned in Seven Sisters and looked up reviews. I never heard before of this critical masterpiece that nobody reads! It was hard for me to read initially as it's definitely stream-of-consciousness; more so than any other book I've read. Its a beautiful book but I had to surrender myself to its world and not allow distractions. The discussion of Seven Sisters gave me DOV and I'm happy. Another wonderful book to add to my read-again stack.

Tisi-phus' post #584 gave the Broch links (thanks again) which talk about the book Ida Jerrold couldn't get through, The Death of Virgil. This book is the umbrella covering the structure of Seven Sisters.

The four parts are titled:

-- 1. Water - The Arrival

-- 2. Fire - The Descent

-- 3. Earth - The Expectation

-- 4. Air - The Homecoming

The four parts of Seven Sisters are:

-- 1. Diary - water symbols

-- 2. The Italian Journey - fire/sun symbols

-- 3. Ellen's Version - earth/snake symbols

-- 4. The Dying Fall - air/spirit symbols

The Death of Virgil is a poetic argument. Virgil feels the Aeneid isn't perfect by Aristotle's standards and he argues with himself and friends about the value of his poetry and of any poetry. Virgil asks 'was it worth it? did I live well if I lived only for art? was my art good enough?'

In DOV: Part 1 Water - The Arrival, the poet is half-awake, half-fevered and in the ending he's transported back to Italy. In Part 2 Fire - The Descent Virgil travels in a fevered state over his past and his poetry; as a Virgil says he'd isolated himself from life in his poet's box (no risks; wasted his chances to live); and because of his limited life, the Aeneid is imperfect; in the ending of Part 2 Virgil waits for his death. In Part 3 Earth - The Expectation, after many philosophical conversations, the half-delerious Virgil decides a sacrifice/Golden Bough is required and he says "Burn the Aeneid!!" but the emperor Augustus convinces Virgil that the Aeneid must survive. In Part 4 Air - The Homecoming, Virgil accepts his salvation, the reversal of life into death, and he slips into the nothingness that existed before birth and the presence of the seeing blindness and "the word beyond speech."

This is the umbrella covering the structure of Seven Sisters and this book that Ida reads in preparation for her anticipated death. Candida doesn't make a to-do over DOV as she does the half-blind interpretations of other allusions. Not like turning the sparrows/farthings meaning upside down.

Marvelle

You know, I've come to believe that individual interpretations of the books here in Books and Lit are in the eyes and the mind of each reader.

Though I've been guilty of this in the past and admit it, we are not here to refute arguments or change opinions of other readers. Each opinion is as valid as any other.

We are here to share our opinions; learn from them, and learn how to become better readers. I believe this is the purpose of these book discussions in this wonderful site.

Mal

Jane, hope you can post any final thoughts before your trip. I enjoyed talking with you about Seven Sisters and wish you a safe and pleasant trip.

Mal, bravo for not arguing! That's much appreciated in SN. We do have a free and pleasant exchange of ideas in SN and this book discussion; I try to show how I reach my conclusions, others show how they reach their conclusions and together we are all enriched. I prefer being receptive to other thoughts based on the text and the different experiences people bring to a discussion.

It is Seven Sisters that's arguing. My previous post linked together Virgil, The Aeneid, The Death of Aeneid and the Seven Sisters and what that can mean. The poetic argument is embedded in Seven Sisters as we've discussed many times before -- especially Part 2 versus Part 3 with point/counterpoint, argument/counterargument. And there is a poetic argument embedded in The Death of Virgil.

My feeling is that I want the fictional Candida to live. However, I won't have her do so if Drabble has Candida choose otherwise and that's where I'm at now. I'm asking, what is Candida's choice? I try to show the progress of my close reading which indicates how I reach my conclusions?

Since The Death of Virgil is the overall reference to the structure of Seven Sisters, I think it warrants a close look. The plot for DOV is Virgil's death; while the argument is a poetic inquiry. We've seen the poetic argument in Seven Sisters but now I'm trying to see what Candida chooses. And I hope others will also inquire into Candida's choice -- life or death or.....?

Marvelle

I also recommend The Death of Virgil to any reader who likes, or at least don't mind, stream-of-consciousness writing. SOC is generally not what I read but.....I liked The Death of Virgil.

What you've stated in Poet 602 is your opinion, Marvelle, which I respect very much.

Mal

Mal, the mystery is solved. SeaBubble posted: MmeW, Nachshon is mentioned in Exodus in several places. (4-7-20) But the jumping is not in the Bible, only in its Commentaries, what we call the Oral Torah.

That doesn't make it a less valid allusion; I was just curious about the origin.

Thanks, Madame. I had thought about writing to Bubble, but have been so busy with getting the February issue of The WREX Magazine ready to go on the web and coming in here that I didn't have time.

Mal

Not being satisfied with any of our "stretch out your hand" allusions, I continued searching and have finally found one I like. It is one of the standard readings the sixth Sunday after Epiphany in the Anglican church and comes from Ecclesiasticus 15:11-20, which is one of the books of the Apocrypha in the Anglican Bible.

Ecclesiasticus or the Wisdom of Jesus Ben Sira or Sirach was written around the year 180 BCE by an author who describes himself as a scribe and a wisdom teacher. … Ecclesiasticus is not part of the canon of Hebrew Scripture. In company with other books found in the Septuagint but not the Hebrew Bible, it is canonical in the Roman and Orthodox traditions. The Reformers, following the Hebrew Bible, rejected it at the Reformation. It occupies an anomalous position in Anglican Bibles as one of the inter-testamentary books that constitute the Apocrypha. …

The reading from Ecclesiasticus is a powerful exposition of the argument that humans are absolutely responsible for their actions for they possess free choice. (from episcopalchurch.org)

There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

What think you?

This is my last post in here. To me this book is pretentious. I do not think it will be widely read with appreciation by many. It may be used in Colleges with success as part of the curriculum of a course in literary appreciation. It has been written in my opinion to satisfy the author and not the reader. Of course the author has every right to indulge herself but as a reader I found much to distract me from what I consider the main plot. I am going to order some more of Drabble from the library to see if she has ever used this style of writing before. I would like to seperate the two books as I feel they are and read Candida's story plain and unembellished without all the literary trickery. The Greek connection could still be established. Oh well maybe I am just not clever enough to appreciate the book!

Carolyn

I don't think so, Carolyn, hahaha we were posting together, you seem pretty sharp to me!! Let us know what your further readings turn up?

I like that one, Malryn, that one fits in neatly with your own assessment of the meaning of the book in Post 596, and it makes sense in that context.

I also liked Mme's "withered hand," that whole sentence was beautiful, I thought, and have put it in the heading over the Part IV questions.

MME! Wonderful "find," There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

What think you?

I think that's perfect!! a perfect coda for the entire piece, and her own text seems to echo the very phrases, and it also fits in perfectly with the theme I also saw, and ties the entire book together, that's what I think!! hahahahaa

IF she stretches forth her hand, that is.

IF!! Will she??

And Marvelle, loved the Hazlitt, that fits in too, we could really together write on heck of a lit crit paper on this, couldn't we? (I think we already have) hahahaha

FANTASTIC comparison of Seven with the Death of Virgil!! Thank you for that and all of you for all this research, if I had been reading this alone I would not have known half of these allusions: it’s amazing how many things Miss Margaret managed to throw into this stew, isn’t it?

Carolyn, great point on the mothering issues in Drabble's work, if you find out anything else, do write us, we'd like to know if it's a recurring theme.

The various connections you mention, I agree, are quite confusing, I believe they are intended so, deliberately.

I'm not sure you all are going to like my interpretation of the book, Guys, but we’re here to say what we personally think, so here it is:

I think this is the story of a middle aged woman trying to come to terms with her own lack of accomplishment in life, and nothing else. No trip. No Seven Sisters. No Sibyl. No nothing but the lonely apartment in Ladbroke Grove. Maybe the endowment which she has done nothing with and so feels guilty even over THAT failure. No Ellen, there might have been a wedding, but no trip to Finland, nothing. No new beau named Courage. Nothing. Just “waiting for Godot,” and a lot of imagination. “As for me, I have no home. This is not my home. This is simply the place where I wait.” (page 307)

A disassociated individual who personifies inanimate objects but can’t relate to humans, which explains the attempt to “rescue” a tree? A golden Christmas tree three years dead? Let’s look at the rescuer in action (thank you Malryn for the reminder of the Salvation of the Plastic Bag, she did not intend to “rescue” the bag, however, it offended her so she wanted to “remove it,” interesting that she should use the same word: Salvation. She seems to care more or finds it more important if you will (Salvation) about rescuing and personifying an inanimate/ dead object (“Maybe it wants to be there. Maybe that is its home.” (page 307..the last page in the book) than she does her own children or any other person).

Here’s the Rescuer bent on Salvation:

Three whole years that dead tree had been lying there under the motorway bridge. I don’t know why, but suddenly, as I walked past, this really really pissed me off. I went home, and I poured myself a glass of wine, and I switched on the telly, but I couldn’t get that stupid tree out of my mind. I made myself some supper, and I had another glass of wine, but I still felt angry about that tree. You just can’t let things lie.

(page 304)

Not the usual emotions of a rescuer? Especially one bent on salvation from the act?

I believe that she is a prisoner of her own mind and she has never been able to escape it.

“I can’t get out. I try , but I can’t escape…I’m back in the same old story. I had thought I would get out, but I don’t think I can. (page 275)

“It is something different that draws me onwards. I must learn to grow old before I die. That, I think is what the Sibyl tried to say, on her blank tapes and her withered leaves. “ (Page 281)

But she didn’t visit the Sibyl, did she? She’s calling Mrs. Jerrold the Sibyl here for the blank tapes. Oh but she DID go to the Sibyl, hahahaa, she says in Part II she heard the Sibyl say “Submit,” and she says in Part IV, “I must be humble and submit. I am just one of those small, insignificant, unfinished people.” (page 275). Oh but “Ellen” (Part III) says she never got there, and some of the more charitable of us say she realized on the journey to plump for life so she did not need the Sibyl.

Oh but ELLEN is not Ellen and I think she never invited her mother to Finland either, look: at what he mother says about Ellen as a clue: “Ellen (the fictitious one) has pointed out that she has invited me several times to visit her in Finland, and that I have never taken her up on the suggestion…She doesn’t acknowledge that I realize that she doesn’t really want me to go. I can read the subtext. I’m not a fool." (And I don't think she ever did). "And I don’t like her calling my style and attitudes ‘faux-naif,’ I think that’s offensive. (page 281).

She thinks something she herself wrote AS her daughter about her own self is offensive?

By any standards this woman is not well. She reminds me of a high school teacher of History I once had who sent herself Christmas cards and talked about how she displayed them on the mantel and how they looked and what was written in them and how many she got.

”She is afraid to die, and she is afraid to live. She has lost her nerve.” (page 287)

“The Ladbroke Grove rat. I only saw it twice. It’s not really my friend.” (page 281)

“I had a postcard from Valeria. The seventh sister has not forgotten us yet. I was beginning to think I might have invented her.” (page 284)

And it’s Stewart Courage who regards the telephone as an instrument of torture, another phone phobic person, never have seen so many in one book before (never, for that matter, ever heard of it at all). Amazing coincidence.

I submit that she never went anywhere, with anybody at all, that the allusions are confusing for a purpose, it’s an inner look at a world gone wrong at a person who is a prisoner of her own mind.

“

I am condemned to life, to wearing out my life. All I can produce from my gaping mouth is a little tiny cry. “ (page 275)

A fascinating excursion for the reader, capable of a million interpretations, an excellent choice for a book club and an excellent group to debate the myriad complexities with, I’ll give the book one STAR * out of a possible 5 *****, but 5 ***** as a "Provocative Book Discussion Subject."

What might your own rating be of this book, based on a system of 1-5 stars? 5***** being the best: best book I ever read: recommend it highly and so on?

ginny

Did you notice that the opening gloss (She sits alone, high on a dark evening, in the third year of her sojourn) is exactly the same as the last, except for "fourth year" instead of "third"? Same old, same old.

Ginny, no comment on my Ecclesiasticus find?

My rating of the book is also a 1. My rating of my learning that took place in the discussion is a million. MmeW, I had to get out my Bible and look up your reference... it seemed perfect to me. Marvelle, you have convinced me with each of your presentations. What scholars!! What critical thinkers!! What a ride this has been!! Thank you thank you thank you to each and every one of you.

Remains of the Day was a wonderful book. That ole' Butler couldn't hold a candle to our CW!! I loved him... I still don't know what to think of CW... Ginny, I made the comment today, I wish there was someplace to go to clarify this book. I believe you. I agree with you. Does CW live? Is she recovering? At least the Butler's (sorry, can't remember his name...) author allowed some dignity.. Would that Drabble had...

Lou

I can't rate this book or any other. I like them, or I don't. When I first read Seven Sisters, I liked it very much. The story of Candida was amazingly typical of the struggle some women must go through after one life they've known collapses around them, and they struggle to find a new one, while at the same time working to find themselves as single, whole individuals.

As time went on, I liked the book less because, as has been obvious to most of you probably, I have thought the Aeneid was a framework, a background through which the story of Candida revolved, and not the principal theme. Now that this discussion is nearly over, I can say again that I like this book. I'm certain that it has and will strike a chord with many people -- both women and men -- who read it.

"Subliminally, unfortunately - as humans, we are making value judgements throughout a book - just as everybody in the discussion is doing - whatever else we are instructed NOT to do. We bring a lot of baggage with us when we read a book."

This is quoted from Viogert's Post 319, and I find it to be very true. I went through many posts of hers before I found these words, and I must say there is wisdom and good sense in all of them. I wish Viogert had not left this discussion. I've missed her comments very much.

Mal

Yes, viogert had some wonderful thoughts, as do you all, I think you've outdone yourselves and appreciate your slogging thru to the end, especially those of you who did not like the book or struggled to understand it.

I appreciate that, Lou, very much, I think the Reader's Guide which comes from this one will be of GREAT assistance to other readers, they will love all the stuff you all found, and your insights. And I bet you we hear from other groups who found it useful, also.

We can't always love a book or enjoy the character, that's not why we're here, but it WAS a super book for discussion, and each of our own interpretations, if backed up by text, is as valid as the next person's, let's hear from all of the rest of you, still looking, Mme, (I thought I said some super stuff on it, I thought it was fabulous)

We're considering writing reviews on SeniorNet, have had some success on Amazon and B&N, and if you care to give this a rating I think I'm going to give this one a shot, I'll use the composite of your ratings, if you care to give them.

ginny

I have got an early Drabble Novel out this morning. It is called The Millstone here is the synopsis. Rosamund is the daughter of rich socialist parents. She has independance, sophistication and a scholarly career but she is unable to cope with maturity.

When she falls pregnant after her first and only sexual experience she half heartedly attempts os have an abortion but eventually settles down to childbirth and maternity.

Totally ignorant of the National Health Systems workings and as an umarried mother she feels a complete outsider, but manages to pull through some of the worst moments of her life.

A story about another mother. Will this mother be like Candida or the Witch of Exmoor. The mother in the Witch of Exmoor was scholarly, this mother is scholarly. It will be interesting to see how this story pans out. How does this young mother fare in a nuturing role?

Will fill you in over the weekend. It is not a long novel.

Carolyn

Good going, Carolyn, let us know of any parallels you find!

ginny

Ginny, you can put me down as rating this book with a 4. Margaret Drabble writes simply, beautifully, and sensitively. She took on a mammoth task when she used the technique we see in this book, and she did it well.

Mal

Ok, thanks, Malryn, and Mme! No I did NOT notice that the glosses were the same, except for the year! Well done! I did keep thinking that there is something IN those last glosses, taken separately, something which nags but I can't or won't do them again and I found "submit" again, too, in an earlier section, no tellling how often IT'S mentioned.

It's kind of like a movie you have to see over and over before you understand what it says, like Gosford Park, for one, and in this one I think each of you had made super interpretations.

ginny

Ginny, I’m going to cite these lines in favor of your theory and then play the devil’s advocate (my opinion, I think): In Finland: "Candida is out of time, out of place, alone. This hotel is like a sanatorium. She is a patient in a sanatorium." (287)

I am just so literal (and maybe so optimistic) that I think it all happened. Just because she says that she has never been to Finland doesn’t mean that it’s not possible that she go after being invited there, and the quote does come before the invitation.

She tells us she went through "a bad period" of depression, when she felt like throwing herself into the canal, and had bad dreams about lying in the gutter with birds (sparrows, by the way) before she went to Finland and "slowly stuck [herself] together." (302) This period would include Part III, when she imagines herself having thrown herself in the canal, and the first part of Part IV.

She discovers that money and travel made not a whit of difference. (Joan made a good comment about the let-down after a well-prepared trip, which CW experiences.) She’s still depressed.

She has made "friends," yet doesn’t want to impose her black moods on them. Even Sally has lost interest.

She thinks about her body: with Andrew "My body was lonely and never found company." (278); at the wedding "She is lonely in her body" (290); "Nobody save the neon-lit dentist has touched the skin of her face for years." (290). She also acknowledges her frigidity: sex "means nothing but a sense of unending failure and everlasting exclusion." (278)

And death is constantly on her mind, as a release?, as an inevitability? "I am condemned to life." "I respect those who can make an ending." "I suppose we all have fantasies of our own death." "I must learn to grow old before I die." The Frenchman is "the lure to the canal bank. …We are both dead, and we walk through our after life." "I will go to my Health Club … and die a little in the sauna." "She is afraid to die, and she is afraid to live." "She feels near the point of death."

BUT on p. 284 the tone changes: "Several surprising things have happened. So it is not quite the end." (284) not the end of the story? Not the end of CW?

Then comes her Finland experience, where she slowly sticks herself together, and a change for CW. "Candida is glad to have an evening to herself. She has been far too busy of late. Her social calendar is full." (296) Biweekly bridge with Mrs. Jerrold, movies with Cynthia and Anaïs (and sometimes Mr. Barclay), theatre with Stuart, lunch with Martha and boyfriend, planning a new trip, yoga class, another prisoner, Ellen’s baby, and she has even made friends with the volunteer lady at the hospital.

Not a complete change: sexuality still bothers her, and realistically so—hard to teach an old dog new tricks: If she and Stuart were to marry, there would have to be "bed rules." She’s glad to have done with menstruation, but in the antepenultimate sentence (I have always wanted to use that word!) hints at that no longer being fertile deprives her of purpose. "Knitting is better than sex, at her age" (295). So she contents herself with knitting, yet another solitary pastime (masturbation, says Anaïs).

There’s no more talk of death, except for the death of Jenny, and it was on the way home from the Health Club, and discovery of Jenny’s death that CW spies the Christmas tree.

With everything going so well, why does the Christmas tree piss her off so much? That it has lain there ignored for three years? (like dead CW floating in the canal was ignored for 3 days?) Was it somehow related to Jenny’s death? A silly gesture, perhaps, but she decides it needs rescuing, and when she gets to the other side of the fence, she feels not foolish, but "triumphant." And I can’t help but think of it as a brave act, even though she had to work up a little Dutch courage to do it.

On her way to Finland in the midst of her depression, CW thinks, "There cannot be a happy ending. There is nothing but the next effort, and then, after that, the next." (286) Our old friend Sisyphus here, yet not Camus’s view, I think, since he maintains Sisyphus was happy. By the end, CW decides to leave the tree where it is, thinking: "I don’t think I’ll bother. I don’t want to be condemned to climbing over railings to rescue trees, in endless repetition, like a latter-day Sisyphus."

So I choose to see a positive ending to CW’s tale: "I am filled with expectation." An always inchoate expectation, one that keeps us going, so that we choose life, not death.

There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

After all this head-scratching, I’m inclined to believe Drabble: "…better not to read other people’s diaries," thinks Candida. (299)

As for rating it and recommending it, I would recommend it and probably rate it a 4, too. Frankly, I found the very intense examination of the allusions detracted from the book itself and my enjoyment of it (even though Drabble likes intense reading), so I was pretty much down on it by the end. But I think if I had just sat down and read it for enjoyment, I would have quite liked it.

Sue, we were posting at the same time and I thought oh 'I better go back in and say that I wasn't writing a response.' I figured you'd know that, but just in case.... Funny, but I read the book straight through for the plot, without looking at the allusions, and didn't see much character development which is something that draws me into a book. However, the subsequent close readings gave me a better understanding and appreciation for Drabble's use of structure and literary techniques.

It was quite a trip, this Seven Sisters. Since any author writes a world within the pages of a novel, I prefer to look at all of the book, rather than just one portion of the book ... not just Candida or Ida or the Aeneid or the allusions... but all of it as the author presented it to the reader. That gives me the greatest understanding of a book. Tisi-phus, from what I've seen I believe the Aeneid was a strong part of the novel with the issues of rebirth/salvation/changing oneself, but Candida kept getting it all wrong, didn't she?

Using the allusions and accepting Roman mythology as real, Candida was bitten by the snake, through the help of the barbed wire, and wouldn't or couldn't hold on. I believe Candida actually drowned and is waiting in limbo called Ladbroke Grove. In Catholicism and many religions suicides don't go to heaven and this may be her endless fate. Was she trying to sneak in by getting the stupid tree and climbing over the fence since she couldn't go through the Gate of Horn? Only the snake bit her and she left it behind.

From reading the plotline only, Candida still had problems and I agree with Tisi-phus' assessment. Both the mythology and the plot reach the same point in the text for me, except the mythology informs more on unreliable narrator Candida. The second text of Seven Sisters -- palimpsest, what a gorgeous word, thanks Joan for reminding us of it -- the second text to me is Drabble's poetic inquiry and I'm not sure that Drabble reached a conclusion herself. She did jab at her sister and academic critics for which I question whether many universities would want this book.

From what I've seen of Drabble's other works, she's always used allusion and always had layers in her work, but Seven Sisters is her most complex work to date with the palimpsest being new to her, I think. In the other Drabble books I've looked at there is always one character who writes, heaven help us all.

I'm grateful I found an inexpensive Proof Copy of Seven Sisters far in advance of the book's U.S. release. Not only was I able to read the book early, I wrote all over the paperback including the inside and outside of the covers. It's quite shopworn now with that shabby chic look. It was interesting to read and I wouldn't have seen as much as I did without a discussion group and all the conclusions based on the text.

I would give the book one star* and as a provocative book discussion subject, I too would give it five stars.*****

Marvelle

I have speed read The Millstone.

It is a very good storyline, well developed characters and complex relationships. The main character like Candida lacks self assurance at first. The parents are unusual to say the least. There is only one reference to Greek Classics in the novel. The main character does not relate well to her siblings or her parents but there is not malice in her assessment of them. This character also has great difficulty with her sexuality. It is a good read if you wish to read another Drabble. The entire book is written in the first person. It does have parallels in style and allusion but nowhere near as complicated as Seven Sisters. I liked the conclusion and I liked Rosamund.

Carolyn

OK, tell me if this is right. The Sibyl tells Aeneas that in order to come back alive he must first bury one of his men, who has died without his knowing it, and that second he must find a golden bough, which will come off in his hand easily if the fates are willing.

So after burying Jenny (in her mind), CW seeks the Christmas tree, but instead of it coming off easily in her hand, it ends up back where it was. Meaning? That she can't enter the Underworld? That she can't come back?

Candida had had two or three glasses of wine before she went out to rescue the Christmas tree, which had been taken from its place under the highway and thrown on a filthy trash pile. Things were out of order. Viogert said about the plastic bag that Candida was trying to put order into urban something or other. I can't remember the word she used; don't think it was chaos.

Candida didn't have any trouble with the tree. It came off her hand easily.

(305) "I chucked the dwarf tree over, on to the pavement, and considered my position."

It was then she backed into the barbed wire. Two men came along, and one of them gave her "a leg up, from his side, on top of the railing. She got up on the railing, but the other man pulled her over the top. She lost her balance and scraped her leg on the way down.

Except for the fact that she was inebriated from the wine she had drunk and went to rescue the tree, I can't see how the tree itself had much of anything to do with her injury. The tree was safely on the pavement while all of this happened, having gone easily out of her hands when she threw it over the barbed wire fence. Jenny was dead and buried; the tree was free. (Actually, when I envision this scene, I find it very funny.)

How does this relate to the Golden Bough and serpents? I feel sure someone will tell me, ha ha!

Mal

Some final comments here. And please remember, I am a neophyte in heady book discussion. I liked the book, which I read litererally, and probably superficially, and will rate it a 4.

They say if you hang in long enough, things eventually come together. Guess "they" is right. I've been reading this book quite literally and feeling lost among all the allusions. The past few days I've been rereading both the book and your posts. What an awesome group you are, so astute and knowledgeable. And the way you back up your statements with page numbers. It's been truly helpful, and I feel like a leech for not contributing more. Like a few others, I feel extremely ignorant.

Ginny, your take on Candida is most interesting -- no friends, no trip, no daughters -- just a poor lost sparrow, not worth two farthings, but I can't accept it. My literal interpretation says she may not be all she says she is, but she does have a family, and she did travel with friends called the Seven Sisters. There is an Ellen, Finland, etc.

I like MmeW's summation, (with those wonderful page numbers again) which offers a ray of hope for this poor tormented woman. But is she still alive? She bleeds no more in the place where she simply waits. The book has reeked of death from the very beginning with drownings and the underworld, and one of the last images is that of a dead Christmas tree.

I think MmeW's Ecclesiasticus is what the author was referring to, but have included another reference here also. Is she being saved from life or death?

Psalms 138:7 Though I walk in the midst of trouble, you will revive me. You will stretch forth your hand against the wrath of my enemies. Your right hand will save me.

This has been a real mindstretcher for me. And like Marvelle and the Death of Virgil, I may put Seven Sisters on my list to read again. Can't wait to see the Reading Guide.

Isn't that funny, Pedln. I took the "now that I bleed no more" to mean the loss of her period (fecundity) and the stretch out your hand? to what? for the reader to decide.

But I agree with you on reading it plain and simple. While it might be a great novel for academics to deconstruct, I thought it worked better on its own.

Mal, I just thought that since the Christmas tree ended up back where it started, that maybe CW was not able to truly break it loose and therefore did not have the passport to enter (and return from) the underworld. But I find most of the allusions don't really hold up or mean anything to what actually happens, at least as far as I can tell.

Not having read this book myself I really think that I have gleaned more from All of Your posts than the Book if I had read it. I Thank You and will keep observing.

And I thought "now that I bleed no more" meant Candida's wounds have healed; she's recovered from the terrible, constant pain of what she's been through.

I was thinking on this sleepless night that we've been so seriously "dissecting" this book that we haven't talked much about the humor in it. The Christmas tree part was only one of the places where I had to smile at the images the book evoked in my mind.

Obviously, whoever drew the cartoon of the Seven aging Sisters on their crusade also saw humor in the book. I thought some of the scenes in Tunis were very funny, and there were times when Candida talked about the Health Club that made me smile. If not looking for hidden meanings, the scene with the hour glass was also humorous. Of course, the rescue of the plastic bag was one that would make an onlooker shake her head and smile. Who is that crazy old lady, anyway?

Candida's going out to search for mushrooms with the aging Lothario certainly amused her two daughters and her, too. We've not taken the time to search out and analyze the humor in this book, have we? Margaret Drabble seems to me to be quite a witty woman. We've taken a nice woman like Candida and made something of a monster of her at times, I believe. It might be fun sometime to go through the book with a lighter touch.

As far as the allusions are concerned, thanks to the research and work done by Ginny and Marvelle and all of you, I was led to the Aeneid, which I haven't looked at for a long time, as well as to Goethe, Nietzsche, and others, and this led me to musical references I haven't thought about for a while -- even Richard Strauss's "Thus Spake Zarathustra". I enjoyed that, too.

I don't think Candida is dead or going to die soon. Most of the reviewers of this book agree that she has opted for life.

I think the book can and does stand well on its own. That, in fact, plus Drabble's writing, which I've already mentioned, led me to rate it as a 4.

Now if Morpheus will be kind, perhaps I'll get a little sleep before it's really time to get up and start this day.

Mal

Since we're in the after burn part now, here I am at 4:20 am, once again awoken by Candida and her tale. And I see she's got you up too, Malryn, ahahaha nice edition of the WREX magazine, by the way.

YESTERDAY she got me up with that poem from somewhere, "He sees the little sparrow fall," that drove me nuts but I did not follow up on it, OD'd on following UP!

I actually woke up thinking about the Christmas tree and why it seemed to anger her. Did she have one of her own?

Do we know anything about Candida at all except what she tells us or the random police report reports? IF there were any?

Like Stevens in Remains, this character undergoes a “change,” yet…would you say yet ostensibly continues in her life, yet again, all we have is her word for it.

We don’t know if she herself had a Christmas tree, if she, in those four years celebrated Christmas at all, or why a Christmas tree should be of import to her in any way.

If I said we need yet another chapter in this thing? A chapter by a person NOT of her construction or invention, would you scream? Hahahaha

I think, and I have not wanted to be harsh, but I think that this book is an indication of an author who did not pull all of her creative ideas together in one final coherent whole, the aspects she thought of, all the creative images, simply did not come together, I bet her editor had a field day with this thing, I think Drabble should have continued to work on it.

Compare this with Spelling Bee, again about a woman whose compass was off kilter. Just enough human foibles the reader could relate to and a WHOLE lot the reader could not. TOLD FROM the perspective of her daughter who could see the problems. That one is taught in literature classes, this one may be, too, as Carolyn said, or, because of the lack of cohesiveness, may not, who knows?

I’m glad we read it, I LOVE the fact that we’re all over the chart with the different stars, 4’s, 1’s, it’s been a long time since we diverged that much.

Lou on Stevens in Remains? I’m going to say this about the two, what do you think, those of you who read both?

Stevens in my opinion was directed toward an idealistic goal and toward service (in every sense of the word) to others. He failed in all of his goals. Candida is devoted to nothing but herself, because of her circumstances. I feel for her, I can relate to her, specifically the (to me Non) wedding trip where she feels almost breathless with fear, that’s good writing. Drabble, for whatever you might say, is a good writer.

There’s no way the reader can’t empathize with SOMETHING in the character.

What WOULD be interesting to see is a comparison of Stevens retired? Forcibly retired, and Candida. Two different people, with different ideas of life. Stevens, who put everything else in life on hold to pursue a worthy goal, and Candida, who has to invent goals due to her myopic view of the world because she’s consumed with just trying to cope on her own, to break out of her own prison.

I would like to see those two characters on an equal status, Candida does not have the wherewithal to create, tho she tries thru God knows how many avenues, a meaningful life. Stevens lived one trying to pursue a goal, yet our readers said Stevens was a wasted life.

What would you say of Candida’s?

So do we like her? Do we not like her? Sure we like her, is there anybody here who does not? Sure we recognize a fellow tortured soul on the path of life, she says she’s in torment, herself? Sure we can identify with her? Sure the book is uneven and incoherent at parts, the author’s fault not the character’s, and sure as heck there’s no evidence to me, that any of this is real.

I feel great compassion for this tortured soul, but I must say I feel more for the reader.

Marvelle, do you have a scanner? I’d love to see a copy of YOUR text, hahaha mine is unreal.

Mme, remember, if you’re not one of the chosen ones, you don’t get to pluck the golden bough, it won’t come off in your hand (or it will cause you to get torn on the fence), if you’re not intended, you won’t get it.

Do you think the Christmas tree, the little golden dead Christmas tree IS the Golden Bough for her and if so what does it mean that she’s given up the Sisyphus-an attempt to get it? She recognizes she can’t ever succeed….in what?

What has a dead Christmas tree got to do with Salvation?

Pedln, I always love your analyses, when I said there is “no Ellen, “ I meant “no Ellen” wrote in the diary, sorry I was not clear, I do think there’s a Finland and an Ellen, (in the story which itself is unreal) and Candida may , I waver on this one point, have gone to the wedding, that wedding MAY have set this whole book off, actually, that’s pretty stark, I think the rest is in her mind, all of it and she teases the reader all along with that possibility, the possibility that Valeria is made up, it’s a teaser.

I also can see humor in the part where she says she is offended by “Ellen’s” remarks about her, yes I see humor, yes I see subtlety yes I see a book which did not come together and needed more editing, or another chapter.

And my GOODNESS< Pedln! IS she still alive, you ask?

Is she still ALIVE? So you, too, doubt what you’re being told. Alive in what sense? Amazing, that, thank you for that!!!!!!!!!

Ginger, always welcome, always a cheery spot in any discussion, thanks for being here

Carolyn, thank you for that speedy report (boy you read FAST) of the other Drabble, sounds like it held together a bit more coherently.

Malryn, good point, the tree did not cause her to get hurt, it was the other people trying to help, supposedly, which caused it, so you see her trying to tidy up her surroundings as her motivation to rescue the tree?

Does she see the tree as a cast off once important and center of life thing, just like her, and so she needs to “rescue” it and not let it just lie there (like she does) useless and abandoned?

I have a bad story about a little golden Christmas tree and people who laugh at the understandings or dreams of others, (I have no tolerance for anybody who laughs at the misunderstandings of others, be warned) it’s not a nice story, but it, unlike what we’ve read here, is true. I will distort some of the facts, this IS a public discussion.

Once upon a time in South Carolina there was a Christmas tree farm, big thing, with horse driven wagons out to cut the trees, loggers dressed up like Santa, etc. Fun for the family. One day on a trip out to the fields, a customer spotted a little golden bough: a little gold Christmas tree standing all alone. The customer was much taken and insisted the wagon stop and that tree be hers. In vain did the logger try to talk her out of it, in vain. She would have, what to her, was unique, her own special golden bough.

So they cut it down and she paid for it and carried it off home triumphantly. And you know if you read this story what the coda is: it was dead.

Here we have several images, perspectives, and burdens on the reader of this tale. We have the woman and her prize which she paid good money for and carried home. We have the incredulous logger who did not tell her why the tree was gold and took the money. We have the audience of the incredulous logger, who has laughed over it ever since. We have the burden of saying that’s dishonorable, the poor woman, shame on you or laughing along side, an accomplice, at somebody else’s misunderstanding of life.

In Candida’s story, we have no other perspectives, despite all the "voices," but her own to go by: no policeman, no nurse in the ER, no neighbors, no loggers, no children, no friends voices to provide perspective: only her own Tale of the Tree and the Golden Bough.

In Stevens's case in Remains of the Day, we had his own admission of the real facts, I think we even lack that here. Stevens, at any rate, did not make up narrators or say he fancied that perhaps Mrs. Kenton was not real in several places in the text. If EVER there were a case of the “Unreliable Narrator,” Candida Wilton is it.

There was a lot of solidity in Stevens, there's none in Candida, she's not candid, at all, and I think it's deliberate. I really liked something Marvelle said way back there about the Aeneid and the classical glosses telling the real story, I think she’s on to something but it’s more of a puzzle than I want to commit to at this point.

Everybody is looking for the Golden Bough in life, this is just another version, and who is to say Candida’s efforts are any less effective than another. I would say she needs to do just exactly what the last line in the book says, reach out your hand to others, and in the process find yourself, something that Stevens started the book with.

Is it hopeful? I would say so. Will there be a sequel? Depends on the critical reception, I don’t think anybody has a clue what to make of it, let’s watch the reviews for charges of incoherence. Did the author succeed in disappearing, in providing a "willing suspension of disbelief?" No. Again uneven.

I think you’ve all done a splendid job with a very difficult book but it sure has been a trip, huh? Our own Aeneid, our Drabbleid. (Oh and unlike some of you, if I had read this alone, I would never have gotten thru Part I).

Tisi

Pedln said: And please remember, I am a neophyte in heady book discussion.

Oh, Pedln, you dear one, are a long way from neophyte IMO. I just barged in here and acted like I belonged! But you know what? Though the ride hasn’t been easy, I’m so glad to have been along.

When I finished reading this book through the first time, because I can’t not finish a book I start, I thought and in fact believe I said here, Someone tell me what I just finished reading. The book alone did not explain itself to this reader. Pathetic. I said it at the beginning and I’m saying it at the end, except I think for me, it wasn’t just the character of Candida that was pathetic, I think the book was also. And I almost feel compelled to say, Poor Drabble. For a book to work, surely there needs to be within the text something that allows readers to draw conclusions at least about the main character. When the writing is such that readers leave a book knowing nothing more than they started with that “something” is not there. Unreliable narrator??? I’ll say! She’s laughing now?? Why should I believe that?? Even if she’s not playing solitaire she’s thinking about it as she knits… congratulating herself on not playing.

The Aeneid, Remains of the Day, and Seven Sisters x10… What a way to start the year!!

Lou

Mal: And I thought "now that I bleed no more" meant Candida's wounds have healed; she's recovered from the terrible, constant pain of what she's been through. Good thought. And I agree about the humor.

Ginny: Do you think the Christmas tree, the little golden dead Christmas tree IS the Golden Bough for her and if so what does it mean that she’s given up the Sisyphus-an attempt to get it? She recognizes she can’t ever succeed….in what? I do think it is the golden bough for her and since she didn’t get it, she can’t descend into the underworld—she can’t die yet. But the g.b. was really a passport out of the underworld, so once again it seems as if the allusion doesn’t really work. Maybe giving up, unlike Sisyphus, means she will stop dwelling on death.

Does she see the tree as a cast off once important and center of life thing, just like her, and so she needs to "rescue" it and not let it just lie there (like she does) useless and abandoned? Yes, I see it as her alter ego as well.

I think that this book is an indication of an author who did not pull all of her creative ideas together in one final coherent whole, the aspects she thought of, all the creative images, simply did not come together. Here I think you hit the nail on the head!

One definition of allusion I found said this: Allusions are often used to summarize broad, complex ideas or emotions in one quick, powerful image. … Thus, allusions serve an important function in writing in that they allow the reader to understand a difficult concept by relating to an already familiar story. (I tried to find Marvelle’s more complex definition but gave up.) I don’t see that here. I see almost a showing off, as in "Look how many allusions I can make, whether they pertain or not!" I don’t really understand the point in using an allusion if the parallels are not there. How satisfying and illuminating it is when they are, when you can make the connection. And here we are floundering with the golden bough.

I think back on the relatively simple writing of Ishiguro and how powerful Remains was, with no pyrotechnics.

Thanks, Ginny, for what you said about the February issue of WREX Magazine. One of the WREX writers said she had read straight through all the stories, and all the voices in each story sounded the same. That threw me for a loop, since I'd written mine in a New York City dialect and had edited all but one of the prose pieces. Lazar Stills's story is written, not in Yiddish, but in a Yiddish way. Come to find out, what she meant was that she'd read all of the parts of her novella, Seaside Gardens, straight through. This pointed out to me once again how necessary it is to be very clear when communicating on these boards!

I loved your little golden Christmas tree story. Imagine how that woman felt when she got the poor, dead tree home!

I think Candida was obsessed by the incongruity of that Christmas tree under the highway in the same place with the man with the dreadlocks. She was trying hard to put some order into her life, and after drinking wine, she went out to rescue the tree and put it back where it had been so she could put some kind of order into what was going on around her.

You say Stevens was working toward an idealistic goal and Candida could think of nothing except herself. I believe the major point of this book is to show Candida trying to survive, to stay alive. That was her goal, and it seems natural to me that she wrote about herself.

I remember complaints about Stevens' rambling narrative in Remains of the Day. Someone said she couldn't tell when things were happening. Was it this year, the year before, when? A big difference between that book and Seven Sisters is that, rambling or not, it's a straight narrative. Stevens is locked in a car as he thinks what he does. Ishiguro used only one voice -- Stevens'.

Drabble made Candida observe her life and herself from different perspectives. Each perspective in Candida's journal had a different voice. Drabble used an enormously challenging technique. Obviously, it worked for some, and it didn't work for others. It worked for me.

I was thinking the other day that what makes this book good is the fact that so many impressions can come from it. Perhaps that's why there was some disagreement among us here concerning what the book was about.
There seemed to be only one real constant. That was Virgil's Aeneid with the allusions to it through Candida's troubled and cluttered mind. By the time we reached Part Three, I was convinced that the Aeneid was not as "constant" as it seemed. There were several different routes for readers to take when analyzing this book. I decided early on that Candida and her fight to survive were the constant and the major theme. I still feel that way.

Mal

Sue, my post on allusions is in the links portion second to the bottom right. It's underneath "Candida References" and is titled, for some reason, "Literary Terms in 7 Sisters."

The point with allusions and other techniques, is that they fill out the story. The plot is only a portion of the story. If you look at the link on allusions, you'll see that Drabble was using allusions in a specific way.

I will say that I chose the beginning few lines of Exodus 4 as being the "stretch forth your hand" quote that related the most to the text -- snake - golden bough - trust & risk. Moses had to trust & risk to pick up that snake and when he did it turned from snake to rod and became a powerful rod in his hand. This is the critical point in the Bible where we find out why the rod is powerful and then throughout the Bible we see the effects of its power.

I would like to respond to Tisi-phus latest post in a moment.

Marvelle</fnt>

A thought: Candida is giving the allusions, so how can we trust what she is saying about them and how they relate to her life? She's been confirmed as an unreliable narrator. That, plus the tormented state of her mind, lead me to think she's stating confusion more than allusion.

Mal

I love that, Mal! Never read Hegel, eh?

Madame:

Hegel? What's that?

; )

Mal

Ha Mal! I like the confusion/allusion reference!

I will be keeping all the books we do in our discussions and as I see them on my bookshelf I will have many fond memories of the people who have combined to make all the discussions I have participated in so memorable! It will be a shelf of memories!

This week I go on to A Lesson in Dying.

Thanks to everyone for their participation! I must say that this book has certainly been an education.

Carolyn

My goodness. Those of us who looked closely at the allusions kept saying there's something wrong, she's got it wrong -- the Golden Bough as mistletoe, bradyseism as a downward sinking rather than the actual rise-and-fall, sparrows and farthings turned upside down -- that's the point we've been making. Candida twists things in her mind and we had to see each allusion for what it was as well as for what Candida made of it. Candida's twisted allusions is a major part of her unreliable narrator role and we needed to question that. That's what some of us were doing all along, rather than trusting the surface of Candida's allusions.

I read reviews to get a general idea of a book and I usually look for a variety of opinions. The reviews of Seven Sisters are mixed -- half and half -- between those that recommend and those that don't recommend the book. Since we've seen positive reviews I thought I'd balance them with some of the many not-so-positive reviews for those readers who wondered if they were alone in questioning of Seven Sisters:

BOSTON GLOBE REVIEW

PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER REVIEW

GUARDIAN UNLIMITED REVIEW

REVIEWS: (San Francisco Chronicle)

With the last link, scroll down to the San Francisco Chornicle review by Heller McAlpin of Seven Sisters. I hit the scroll button 12 times on my system to reach the review.

I actually like to see the difference of opinion among reviewers. Some book reviews merely parrot the books' publishers as the review opinion. Other reviewers actually read the books and reach their own 'like/dislike/uncertain' opinions and to those I listen. Whether I agree with those reviewers or not, at least they read and thought about the book.

While dabbling in Drabble, I tried to find out what bothered me about the diminished characterizations. I found an essay which partly answered my questions although I don't agree with all the conclusions reached by the writer. He begins by saying

"Man in contemporary literature is almost everywhere seen as a tormented creature harassed by society, driven by uncontrollable forces, stripped of his dignity, a pitiful nonentity in a soulless society. / Our modern writers appear unable to create a Pip, an Anna Karenina, a Julien Sorel, because they cannot believe in the assumption on which all great fictional characters were based -- that their lives matter, that they are important, that their experiences strengthen and ennoble our sense of life and our capacity to grow and mature in understanding."

I value modern literature and the existential idea of 'our lives don't matter' doesn't bother me as it bothers the essay author, but there is more than nothingness which is the difference between the defeatism of traditional existentialism and Camus' existentialism. Camus said we should live our lives as if they matter.

This is what I feel about Drabble's Seven Sisters and the difference between it and Ishiguro's Remains of the Day: I felt and saw the struggle in Stevens (Remains) and how he insisted on finding happiness. Candida despairs and despairs and despairs and we leave her without seeing any great understanding or maturation and everything in her life is grey. Despite, or perhaps because of, the existentialism that pervaded Remains I felt an emotional release with Stevens, I reacted with him because Stevens was not a one-dimensional character. I missed not having fully dimensional characters in Seven Sisters and I think they deserved more respect by the author. I think readers deserve more respect.

The essay mentions Margaret Drabble's The Ice Age

"Everything is fortuitous; everything becomes banal, passing through the characters without touching any deeper chord. ' We are told in The Ice Age that Maureen liked cheese on toast, her favorite supper, but that Len had not liked it, that the price of chees is shocking, that her mum had also been fond of cheese on toast, and so on ad infinitum. Would it really have added significantly to Anna Karenina's character to have learned that she hated oysters while her brother Stiva loved oysters? When Stiva and Levin enter a restaurant and Stiva is assured that the oysters are real Flensburg, not Ostend oysters, Tolstoy is, among other things, dramatizing a vivid contrast between two very different men, Levin and Stiva, and the oysters and other savory delicacies Stiva orders are still another manifestation of his epucureanism, his love of food, his pampered tastes. But what does Maureen's preference for cheese on toast tell us about her that is of any importance?"

The essay also talks about The Middle Ground:

"...Drabble overwhelms the reader with information about Kate Armstrong, a successful journalist. The novel is full of the kind of circumstantiality so common in literature today. And after we have been deluged with information about Kate Armstrong, the writer leaves her at the end facing a future full of possibilities.... And we ask again: Who is Kate Armstrong? What, from this vague and muddled ending, are we to conclude about her? Is there somewhere in this vaporous language the core of a real person, a vibrant individualist?"

For the complete and rather lenghy essay see:

DESPAIR IN CONTEMPORARY FICTION

The essay writer wished more modern novels would be more like Rabelais Gargantua and Pantagruel, filled with "sensuous details, vulgar allusions, voluptuous delights, mounds of learned references! How raw his humor, how devastatingly luminous his satire, how splendid the Dionysian feast he offers us!"

I wonder what the essay author would say say of Drabble now? I feel the allusions and references in Seven Sisters were deliberately overdone not to enhance the reader's enjoyment and understanding; but for Drabble's own personal enjoyment.

Marvelle

Tisi-phus, re your last post: You ask do we know anything about Candida at all except what she tells us? No, and I don't trust what she tells us. We end up knowing Stevens in Remains.

I think we see Stevens still being Sisyphus, still trying at the end while Candida was passively waiting for change. I wonder how much personal change there is in Seven Sisters. Change and the lack of change is an inherent subject in most fictional stories.

Will there be a sequel? Do you ask because of the ambiguous ending? Don't no. I don't mind the ambiguity of an open-ended story but I don't feel there was any major progression from beginning to end of Seven Sisters.

Stevens was directed towards an idealistic goal, as you say, and he failed. But he kept trying. 'Candida is devoted to nothing but herself.' I agree with that and that insulated view is harmful to her as well as to others. I too can empathize with her. Most of us have moments of despair and feeling boxed away from life. But other then that vague empathy, I can say that I don't know enough about Candida to be emotionally involved in her story as I was with Stevens. I cried for Stevens.

I'm glad I read Seven Sisters in a group discussion because I got so much out of it by listening to the differing viewpoints, finding how the participants reached their conclusions from the text, being asked such astutee questions by Tisy-phus which made me question my readings. I could never have learned so much on my own. Thanks to all the participants for an invigorating discussion.

Marvelle

Marvelle, we were kidding around.

Thanks for the links. I'm still rating the book as 4.

Mal

Oh my gosh! Finally finished Part IV, came in to post a few final thoughts...and read quickly through your posts. Can't do that in here, can I! We're leaving for warmer temperatures...for some healing in the sun - at 7 am tomorrow. Have a million things left to do, but can't resist saying goodbye and posting final rating/impressions of MD's work.

When I refer to something you have said, please don't be hurt if I don't mention you by name? There are so many posts in here and time does not allow me to go back and find who said what...and if I rely on my memory, I might get it wrong...I'm just going to comment in general, ...and give you a number to add to the ratings. I agree with Ginny, we are never usually this far apart in our appreciation of an author's work after a discussion. I felt this book was in the Iris Murdoch category. Not great, not five but not a bad book either. So I'll give it *** - I guess that's a three. Maybe a 3.5 . That's today. If I spend some time thinking about it, I might go as high as a 4.

The way I see it, we've ganged up on Margaret Drabble. Reading is usually a private matter. Most of the book reviews cited are the impressions of ONE reviewer, who writes of his/her own reaction to the book. This is a book that can be appreciated on different levels, depending on the reader. I'd love to hear what OTHER BOOK CLUBS thought of this book. I think it's not fair to Drabble that our crack team of researchers, with the Internet at its fingertips, followed her every move regarding the references to the Aenied, looking for a response in Candida's story.

It IS fair however to address things such as the growth of the main character...or whether or not we have come to know that character. I think that is what the variation in our number rating of the book is reflecting. Something about the woman strikes an understanding note in some of us and infuriates (or bores) others. Isn't it fun to get to know one another this way?

My book is another messed up copy with underscoring and notes in the margin. Too bad, it's a nice hardcover edition, but now I can't pass it on to anyone...would be too embarrassed. THere, now I sound like Candida!

Back in a minute with some the margin notes and final thoughts...and then, have a plane to catch!

M. Drabble is well-acquainted with the Aenied, with literature ...she wouldn't be the editor of the Oxford Companion to English Literature if she didn't know her stuff. But she doesn't assume, or even expect her readers to be...she's writing for the mainstream, and how many people know the Aenied?

This is my view of what Margaret Drabble intended. (oh, and I do feel that much of what she she is writing is about herself, her own situation and feelings of rejection, abandonment and loss following her divorce. I think the feelings she is expressing are very much her own, though she was years younger when she divorced her own husband.)

MD sets out to write a story of a 60 year old woman, on her own for the first time in her life, following a rather traumatic ending to her marriage. In an attempt to make sense of her situation and how she got there, she begins to keep a journal...to try to write her way to the understanding of how she got where she is and maybe get an idea of what to do next. She also joins the Virgil class.

I see an attempt to view her ordinary existance on a grand scale...maybe, through her writing, give her own life some importance. That requires some stretch of the imagination. And Virgil is providing the stuff on which to build her story. Was there a trip at all? Maybe not. The Seven Sisters? Maybe she just attached names of people she knew, or people she met in her class....and let her imagination soar. Or maybe she did go on the trip believing it would provide answers that would change her life...a response from Virgil's Sibyl, in a way. If she went on the trip, she experiences a downer when she returns to her "pitiful feeble struggles - sparrows and farthings..." She realizes that she hasn't changed, that she is the same person she always was.

"Locked in the same body, same old self. I can't get out. I try, but I can't escape. I am condemned to life, wearing out my life." (sounds like the Sibyl.)'

In a way she has changed, hasn't she? from the wounded rejected wife...to a stronger woman with hopes of ...finding the stronger woman that might be lurking within - to one who understands finally the reality of her situation. Do you detect "submission" following the "fall" from the wall? The Dying Fall? Cannot rescue the tree, can not rescue herself from herself?

Jenny - "sad, dead, lonely comrade." She failed Jenny...she did not come to her rescue. "You just can't let things die." After a few glasses of wine, the Christmas tree behind the barbed wire became Jenny, needing to be rescued. And she did. She went out in the dark of night, without care for her personal safety, climbed the fence, and tossed the tree to freedom. AS some of you point out, she DID manage to "rescue" the tree, but couldn't deal with the men who came to her rescue. Fighting them, she managed to cut herself and the tree was thrown back to where it was. She comments that the tree will have to remain in captivity now...she can not return in an endless repetition to retrieve the tree like the latter-day Sisyphus." Concludes that it wants to be there behind the barbed wire...that it has found a home there. It is she who has no home. Susan says all she lacks is faith in herself. Hmmm...yes, I agree with that. But I think it's even more than that. I think she has to WANT to live - as the Christmas tree seems to WANT to stay where it is. I don't see the will to live...which results in all the talk of death at every turn. Had she managed to rescue the tree, what would she have done with it? Would it have become her Golden Bough, leading to her survival,her salvation? Restoring her faith in herself? Causing her to feel she had some control, could bring order to her existance?

I'm rambling...have lost the ordered thoughts I came in with, but will only say that I enjoyed the book I think because I didn't take it as a parallel to the Aenied, but as Candida's response to what she was studying in her class.

Will say adieu - until the next time. If you are looking for some fun, try Life of Pi, the next Book Club Online selection...or join Carolyn in Lesson Before Dying...or more Sisters, the Mitfords? You are the best! Will be looking for you in other discussions...

Need sleep, need to pack...a plane to catch.

Thanks for your thoughts, Joan. I think it's great that despite a ferocious deadline you took the time to weigh in with us and help us try to untangle the tapestry that is Candida. I especially like the reminder that Drabble is writing for the ordinary reader. Have a great trip!

Thank you, Joan. Have a wonderful, relaxing time.

About Joan's mention that she thinks Drabble is writing her own story in The Seven Sisters:- Margaret Drabble was born in 1939. She was married to Clive Swift in 1960, and they divorced in 1975. Drabble was 36 years old at the time. I guess we can each draw our own conclusions about whether she used herself and her divorce as a model for Candida Wilton, who was certainly a lot older than 36 when she and Andrew were divorced.

Drabble on marriage and divorce

Mal

Joan, thanks for your thoughts which are brillant as always. However, I think "ordinary readers" are readers first and foremost and we read many things including the Aeneid, Camus, Euripides, Eco, Flaubert..... I'm particularly fond of Spanish and Ancient Greek authors (Virgil was Roman but I read him anyway in Latin classes) although my reading is quite eclectic and I still binge read in many different fictional and nonfictional fields. Reading interests vary from one person to the next.

The glory of having a library card is that it allows the ordinary reader access to so many worlds and there are no Library Cops that say we don't have the credentials to read this or that book. Libraries give us so much. Just thinking of this brings up a need in me to browse the library stacks tomorrow!

While it seems that Drabble writes for herself first, she also writes for us ordinary readers and she would know after all that we come in all shapes and sizes and interests.

I read all of a book rather than just the plot or just the literary devices. To do otherwise would be like reading a portion of a sign at the Zoo as "Feed the Lions" rather than reading the entire sign which actually says "Please Don't Feed the Lions."

As for Candida herself, I'm sorry for her personal limitations but from my perspective, she's had an easy life from childhood onward. And I wonder if Drabble felt that the majority of aging women are as financially and physically healthy as Candida? That isn't so, of course. I rather think Drabble didn't want to make Candida too sympathetic which is one reason why Candida was given health and (relative) wealth; Drabble needed to distance the reader from the plotline of Candida in order to view the many issues and stories within the allusions and symbology of the Seven Sisters.

From the very beginning Candida jumped into the story doing an imitation of the Diary of Virginia Woolf, for whom Drabble had ambivalent, even negative, feelings. Candida is able to buy an apartment in London and she has an income sufficient to live on without working for a salary. Then she receives an additional shower of gold. She has her health. And the sad thing is, she feels her life is empty, she lets it be so, and she waits in her purchased apartment (no rental or mortgage worries there), despairing. She says horrible things about family and friends. She passively waits for something outside of herself to come along that will change her and make her happy. Even in the "trip" -- whether real or imagined -- Candida waits for the Sibyl.

While I believe Drabble wrote Seven Sisters for herself I don't see her as being the passive Candida. Like any good writer, Drabble takes different bits from many people, including bits from herself, and ideas and combines them into a character. (To write Candida as 100% Drabble would be a disaster because a professional author also needs distance from her characters.) The story dictates how or if the character develops from there. Candida's development or change has been left open-ended by the novel's end.

Marvelle

To say that we, who have thoroughly dissected Margaret Drabble's book in the way we have, are "ordinary readers" is like saying vichysoisse, fois gras and chateaubriand are ordinary fare for common people.

Most writers of fiction write books they hope will sell. That, after all, is how they make their living. Margaret Drabble took an unfortunately all-too-common-through-history theme, one about a woman who had been betrayed by a man for whatever reason, and presented it in a very unusual way. The theme, however, can easily be recognized by what we term as an "ordinary reader" because it happens all the time.

I felt sympathy and empathy with Candida Wilton from the very beginning. I don't see her as a female born with a silver spoon in her mouth, or as having had the kind of easy life that wealth brings. She certainly did not have much when the divorce was final and over. She had enough of a settlement to provide her the means to buy a tiny third floor walk-up in a seedy and often dangerous part of London. Surely, we would not deprive her of that? Her alimony was such, as I understand it from the book, that she had to watch her pennies. Women who don't have to be concerned about money don't think about the pension they'll receive from the government or other benefits reaching the age of sixty brings. Candida's windfall certainly did not put her in the category of "rich" or even well-to-do.

Can you imagine the sort of devastation that comes when you're put out on the street in your late fifties without any skills which can get you a job that would pay you a penny more than minimum wage? As I said once before, who would hire Candida Wilton at sixty? I have a divorced friend just over that age who finally took a job at McDonald's. Why? Because McDonald's was the only place that would hire her.

In the article I linked last night, Margaret Drabble, who is now slightly over Candida's age, said she is one of many women who are from "the Early Marriage Generation". She also said:-

"In those days, women still married to get away from their mothers, because a career was not considered a good enough reason for leaving home. Careers were not taken seriously, whereas a marriage, however implausible, had to be respected."

That fits Candida to a T. Candida is too sick at heart and fearful to be anything but what we've called "passive" here until she sorts things out and puts the broken pieces of herself together. I've seen this over and over. After four or five years women in this predicament feel stronger and more self-confident, and go out and find jobs and seek training so they can get better ones -- if they are young enough that anyone will hire them.

Part of sorting things out that Candida Wilton had to do was to examine her family and friends and the past. Part of that process was to realize the damage she allowed these people to do to her. Of course she's angry at them and angry with herself for allowing such damage to happen. Part of that recognition is accompanied by a kind of lashing out at those people and at oneself.

I brought my own baggage, which Viogert spoke of, into this book, just as did all the rest of us. My baggage includes enough similarity of experience with what Candida went through that I understand her very well. To put her down and criticize her mercilessly would be to put down and criticize the many, many women I've known in her situation and myself. That I will not do.

I find it very interesting that we believed what Stevens wrote about taking the trip to Weymouth to meet Miss Kenton and other things he said in The Remains of the Day, and we question what Candida says about taking a trip with the Seven Sisters to places where Aeneas travelled. Somehow this says something to me about some women's attitudes toward women, which, unfortunately -- as proven in studies recently -- are not always open-minded and kind.

Mal

foie gras
foie gras
foie gras

Foie gras trois fois!

I came to Seven Sisters with no preconceived notions. I had never read Drabble, so no notions there either. I read the book on blind faith in the person/people that chose it. I have over the course of my life read several books. Some I have loved and others I have not enjoyed as much. There is only one book that I can think of that I read, from cover to cover, because I can’t not finish a book once I start, that offended me more than this one. The subject matter in this book was not offensive, but I found that the author was not true to her readers. With her unreliable narrator who knows anymore about Candida at the end than at the beginning? Do I find women who are divorced at any age to have my heart felt sympathies? From my cozy 40+ year marriage I find it heart wrenching, in people. But in order to feel that way about a book character, the author must create that sympathy with his/her text. I find it interesting that because I did not enjoy this book, found the author’s text much less than satisfactory, because I do not feel I can believe the author, who created a fictional woman, the extension of that is I don’t have feelings for, sympathy for other women. This is not my neighbor next door. This is not a participant in this discussion that I am putting down. This is a fictional character that an author created. Period. The author failed to write in a style that made this woman create sympathy in me. Because of this I criticize other women? Fail to have feelings for others? Because of empathy for characters in books, I cannot pick up let alone read The Lovely Bones. I cannot read Beloved. Those authors create characters and situations that are heart breaking for me and would thus become nightmares. So I chose the coward’s way out and don’t read them. I don’t read Stephen King because I likewise have nightmares with horror stories. It sounds as though there are those readers here who would give Remains of the Day one star. Does that mean that they are not sympathetic to men or does that mean they did not enjoy the book?

I likewise find it hard to sympathize with an author who has been addressed in a book group environment. How has my purchasing her book caused me to gang up on her? I would never have considered this book had it not been for this group. How is that unfair?

What a sad ending to a wonderful discussion.

Lou

Lou, I had no preconceived ideas about this book because I knew almost nothing about it when I came into this discussion. I, too, had never read anything written by Margaret Drabble, though her name had been mentioned to me before by my sister in Maine. This particular book does not coincide with anything my sister said about other Drabble books she's read. It's very unusual, and I can see why the way it's written could leave readers dissatisfied.

I must repeat: What I've said in any post here or anywhere else reflects my opinion and my opinion only and is not a criticism of anyone else anywhere. If my wording was less than it should have been in my previous post, I apologize.

I might add here that I think Ishiguro's The Remains of the Day is a masterpiece. Drabble's book is not, in my estimation, or even close to one. It struck a chord with me for reasons I've explained before.

Mal

Now I will thank you all for sharing your knowledge and insight in this superior discussion. I have learned a great deal from all of you.

Mal

Oh no it’s not at all a sad end, Lou, tho I agree with you entirely in everything other than that you said.

Some wonderful points, Joan P, as usual, brilliant as always, this one knocked my socks off (I can’t get your 3.5 rating in the heading, the ½ knocks it off, but I’ll consider it when totaling the score, thanks..or when you return you can elevate it to 4, if you like, I'll check with you then): Do you detect "submission" following the "fall" from the wall? The Dying Fall? Cannot rescue the tree, can not rescue herself from herself?

Oh LOVE that, lovely another fall, I missed that one, well done. We should have made a list of the Dying Falls in this book! Thanks for that, I know you are now on your vacation, and won’t see this but I’ll fill you in when you get back hahahahaha

I wish you had had more time to be here, always love your POV, always learn something from it.

As far as our book discussions in general go, let’s look first at Lou’s thoughts (who I think is 200 percent correct).

(Oh and thank you very much Marvelle for those kind thoughts on the questions, appreciate that, and Malryn I might want to use your “Allusions of Confusion,” in a review, would you permit that?)

But Lou said:

I likewise find it hard to sympathize with an author who has been addressed in a book group environment. How has my purchasing her book caused me to gang up on her? I would never have considered this book had it not been for this group. How is that unfair?

Bingo

The author failed to write in a style that made this woman create sympathy in me.

Bingo

This is not my neighbor next door. This is not a participant in this discussion that I am putting down. This is a fictional character that an author created. Period.

Bingo

that I can think of that I read, from cover to cover, because I can’t not finish a book once I start, that offended me more than this one. The subject matter in this book was not offensive, but I found that the author was not true to her readers.

Bingo

And Bingo was his name-0?

Absolutely right.

The purpose of our discussions here in our Books & literature folders is to give our opinions about the Book, no matter what they are, our own individual opinion, stated in an atmosphere of mutual respect. Period.

Bingo.

I have held back my own opinions about the book, believe it or not, in respect for those of you who loved it, who love Drabble and who love the character. That was a mistake, a bad one, but I did that against my better judgment, out of respect to those of you who had expressed to me your admiration for the author/ character. I now feel it would have been more respectful and honest to have given it.

Each of us is supposed to give our own opinions, that is our right and our burden, a necessity, in examining this fictitious character, the plot of the book, the way it’s written and whether or not the author succeeds or fails; we’re not “ganging up” when we give our own opinion, and we’re not off limits or unfair to do so. We can say anything we please about any book, that’s why where here? In the first place.

That’s what we did, that’s our purpose in being here and you did it splendidly to a fare thee well, about as well as any I’ve seen on a book we regard so differently, a perfect book to discuss in a group.

Carolyn, you mentioned saving all of the books we discuss, that’s sooo neat! I used to do that when we first began, here in the Books, I saved all of them, Snow Falling on Cedars, our first here, then the Odyssey and stopped with one I personally found offensive, the Liar’s Club.

Hated that book. Actually threw it, when the discussion was over, on the fire and enjoyed watching it burn, that’s how much I hated it.

What was wrong with it? The subject matter to me was offensive but even more offensive was the author’s attitude as Lou says, toward the reader, THAT was the straw that broke the camel’s back.

Some of you don’t see anything here in the author, some do, to each his own, that’s WHY WE’RE HERE for Pete’s sake, to share our own thoughts.

BUT in the Liar’s Club discussion, we had one of the best discussions we’ve ever had. One of the best meetings of the minds, and experiences and perspectives, one of the BEST.

And that’s why we’re HERE, Folks??

??

You all are entitled to any opinion you would like on this book, it’s fictional, and so are the characters in it, and to voice those. I’m not sure we’re entitled to voice our opinions on the others IN this discussion, the way they review a book or anything else, let’s leave the ad hominem remarks at home and MEET with our MINDS and support the right of each of the participants, including those who disagree with us, on every aspect of the book, whether or not we’re going to throw our copy on the fire (I leave the fate of my own hard backed Drabble to your imagination) hahahaha

Malryn, you said

and we question what Candida says about taking a trip with the Seven Sisters while we did not with Stevens?

Oh yeah. There was a significant difference, was there not? Candida more than once stated in black and white that she wondered if she herself made up those characters on the trip?

She stated she went to the Sybyl, what the Sibly said, and then, as “Ellen,” Candida herself stated that she didn’t. I mean, hello?

Yeah we question, you bet your bippy we question. Stevens said nothing of the kind, and his trip was borne out by many witnesses, the existence of none of whom is called into question by anybody including him, in the text.

YEAH boy the reader questions and so did we.

A perfect book for a group discussion, lots of unanswered questions, opinions that diverge 360 degrees, our purpose here something never far from my mind, much fulfilled, our mission accomplished and I think as Lou pointed out much earlier, a million things learned, by everybody.

I am very pleased with this discussion and the voices in it, I thank you for your participation.

ginny

You've answered my question, Ginny. Thank you. Now I'm taking my foot out of my mouth, putting my tail between my legs, crawling under the covers and pulling the quilt up over my head.

Thank you all again, especially you, Tisiphone. Consider "Allusions of Confusion" to be your own property.

Mal

Tisi=phus, so glad you posted. I tried to post and lost what I was writing but that's fine because now I have your voice as a springboard for my post. I feel this has been an incredible discussion and not a loss. We've explored many issues through the vehicle of the Seven Sister, which was part of Drabble's intention I believe. I learned a lot. If anyone is interested in why allusions are used and how they are used, please check out the Interesting Links, bottom right under Literary Terms in 7 Sisters.

I see Candida as having a cozy life. She isn't rich but she isn't poor. She owns her own apartment for heavens sake! So she doesn't worry if she'll be homeless at the end of the month when she can't meet the rent or mortgage. She may pinch pennies but she can eat well and she actually has a pension to look forward to. She has her health. Not all women are that well off. So while we are given some things with which to sympathize, Drabble doesn't want us to be blind to Candida's actual comforts or her failings.

_________________________________

I am offended to find blame being thrust onto people who read a book closely or who read a lot of books. However unintended it might be, it shows a lack of tolerance and lack of respect which is not acceptable and must stop. Remember, readers are actual people, characters in books are not.

I am an ordinary reader. My father was illiterate. He was raised in an immigrant household in America but didn't speak English until he was an adult. When his father died my father had to support his mother and siblings at aged 10 yers old. He had dreamed of being an artist but that dream was lost. My mother lost her hearing as a young girl; her avenue to communiction was cut off suddenly. There was now a chasm between her and her schoolmate friends. She left high school to marry.

When one avenue of communication is closed, if you have perseverence, you find another. My mother found it in her family and books. She read all the time and her children were taken to the library before they could crawl. Age 6 was an important coming of age for us because that's when we got our very own Library Card. We no longer had to use mom's card because we had our Own. The librarians, bless them, knew how important this was to mom and us so they made a fuss and turned it into a little ceremony. Every week I would use my card and check out my limit in books. Every week I came back to the library to return the old books and get my limit of new books.

Reading and books deserve my respect which means a careful read. Drabble, as a stammerer, would know the importance of books as a source of communication. Because of my family background, I know she knows that? I'm an ordinary reader who loves books and intends to give each book a close reading out of respect for books and authors and the worlds they give to the ordinary reader.

Marvelle

I’m sorry, but I must post once more. Never before, even in college and graduate studies of English, French and Italian literature, have I seen books examined as closely as they are here. I think it’s remarkable. I find many readers here who are not ordinary ones, but superlative ones, and I admire them very much; cherish what I learn from them, and cannot express how much I appreciate Books and Lit.

My father had to leave school when he was very young because he had to help support his mother and father and eight other children. He didn't finish grade school or go to high school. My mother did not graduate from high school, but she went to school longer than my father did. She was a singer and loved opera, which she listened to on the radio. She taught me something about it, though I did not live with her or my often absent father after my 7th birthday. She died four and a half years later.

The uncle who raised me read newspapers, told me what was in them, and taught me all I know about baseball and something about electricity. He was an electrician. My aunt read books all the time and made sure there were always books in the house for me to read because the library in my hometown was too far away for me to walk.

When I was a little girl, just out of first grade, I was bed-ridden with an illness for a year and flat on my back. All I was able to do besides sleep during that year was read books, and toward the end of that year when I could move my fingers and hands better than before and was able to sit propped up with pillows, I was also able to draw pictures with crayons.

I have continued to read books. In school I read Caesar and Cicero in Latin. I translated and read Dante’s Il Paradiso. I read Pirandello in Italian. I read Camus and Sartre in French. I have read English and American literature, more books than I can remember. I have a great respect for books and raised all my children to respect them, too.

Never before recently have I read books with others. The only real discussion I’ve had about books before was with my former husband, my kids as they grew, and now my daughter. I admit my failings as a group reader, and can only try harder if I participate in other discussions here in Books and Lit. Maybe this gauche woman who is I will someday really understand how it is done and not step on so many toes.

Mal

I think it is great that we all have such divergent views on the book. We do all bring our own baggage with us, and it does affect our attitude. I would never deny the close readers their right to close-read, but I do think over-dissection of the trees can sometimes obscure the forest.

As Marvelle said, "I feel the allusions and references in Seven Sisters were deliberately overdone not to enhance the reader's enjoyment and understanding; but for Drabble's own personal enjoyment." So I felt my attempts to make sense of it all detracted from, rather than enhanced, CW’s story.

This is not to say that I haven’t learned a great deal here. My reading background is pretty pitiful compared to some of you, and I appreciate all the efforts you put into bringing rich details to the discussion.

If I have one regret about this book, it is that I didn’t sit down and read it from start to finish. It makes it very difficult for me to form an overall impression. Plus, I did look ahead by accident in checking to see what the sections were. So here I was in the middle of Part I, only to glimpse in Part III that CW was dead! And then to see her alive again in Part IV. So I guess some of the "whammy" was lost. Thus I read Part III knowing all the while that she was alive.

At first I was put off by the "lies" Drabble perpetrated on her readers, but the more I thought about it, the more I saw that "death" as a black period in CW’s life, with the wedding being the event that ended it.

Mal, thanks for the link to Drabble and marriage. I found it interesting that she chose "the summer bird cage" to represent marriage, only to discover later that the line from from John Webster’s The White Devil referred to something more "louche." The quote you used from that article about early marriage to escape mother seemed especially pertinent to CW.

Ginny, you have definitely piqued my interest on The Liar’s Club. Just out of morbid curiosity I am going to have to read that one and check the archives!

Lou, for most of my life I had the same steadfast rule as you: I can’t not finish a book once I’ve started it. But somehow in the last few years I’ve been doing exactly that: if I don’t like a book, I just don’t finish it! It has felt astonishingly liberating to be able to do that. (Same with dog-earing pages—I can now do that, and it is wonderful to be able open the book to where I left off!) (Despite possessing hundreds of bookmarks, they are never close at hand when I stop reading.)

It’s been a great trip, as usual. Not a masterpiece, not even what I expected, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks to you all.

The SN books offers an opportunity to read and discuss books and participants come from all walks of life. Respect is an important criteria for any group, whether it's a book discussion or playing cribbage or talking over the back fence with a neighbor. It's a team effort in which each individual offers what they can in a discussion. Criticism, even in the form of backhanded compliments, about how people read or for their opinions based on the text is not acceptable or respectful of SN or other participants. In SN discussions I respect others, and expect the same in return. I believe that is the bottom line in SN book discussions and everyone is welcomed and encouraged to participate. It's what keeps me coming back to SN; this opprtunity to talk books with others in a positive environment.

Tisi-phus, I see Drabble's use of allusions as an inquiry into poetics; about communication and miscommunication and she intentionally overdid it to make sure her allusions were noted. I respect authors enough to give a close reading of their works and from that could see the palimsest within Seven Sisters.

The Golden Bough is something you've earned that you sacrifice to be reborn, to learn about yourself. I think readers were Drabble's Golden Bough. Despite that sacrifice of her readers, I found the discussion worth the reading of Seven Sisters. I hadn't read the Aeneid in a long time and that was fun to re-read and then there was the author I hadn't read, Broch, to consider. I learned about participants and how they read, and about London and Drabble and her worlds, and Tunisia and Naples and the Sibyl, and revisted communication concerns and familiar and not so familiar authors. What an incredible trip we took together!

Marvelle

Ginny - Have your bookmarks - arrived yesterday. Next week I will be off to entice other book lovers like us to come on in and join this marvellous site! I am going to make some posters too to put on the library notice boards advertising our up and coming discussions for March and I will do this every month advertising the discussion for the next month. I will have to get in first with my request before I pin up the poster LOL! Still have no idea why we have so few kiwis in here! My city especially has many avid readers and book clubs with closed memberships.

Bye everyone else and see you in another discussion soon! You have all been great!

Carolyn

The Liar's Club into the fire, Ginny? That must have been cathartic.

I don't think Drabble pulled the pieces together as tightly as she could have/should have which might have made some difference to readers. One of the things Drabble does, which may have bothered some who read closely, is the open-ending. We can't be absolutely sure Candida drowned; or died from the Dido-wound of her thigh; or went on to live after coming to terms with herself. Drabble leaves questions unanswered and the conclusion in the hands of the reader. She does give us that.

A wonderful book discussion. Thanks everyone and hope to meet and talk with you again!

Marvelle

Lou and Madame -- Someone once told me it was a "sign of maturity" to not finish a book you didn't like. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's what I think when I stop reading in the middle of a book. My hang-up is that I can't bring myself to write in my books. It must be an overdose of the librarian in me. Also, if I've liked a book, I want to pass it on to someone else to read.

Ginny -- I loved your SC Christmas tree story. And then it hit me why so many were calling the dead Christmas tree in the book the golden bough. Dead Christmas trees turn golden brown. Hmmm. Thanks for putting up the review from Charlie. I saved it and have been rereading it. The reviewer makes a good point - "How do you write about a not very interesting person from the character's perspective and still move the reader?" So, perhaps all the attention-getters, allusions, moving narratives, glosses, etc., are not Drabble enhancers, but are there to add life and personality to a character who doesn't have any.

Did anyone else wish they had this book on a CD-ROM or other digital format? There were so many times I wanted to do keyword searching to reference something someone had mentioned.

Years ago, after some upheavals in my family, I attended a few of those "I'm OK You're OK" feel-good self help group sessions so popular in the 70's. The leader talked about "cookie people" in our lives. When you're a kid and mad at mom, you go to auntie, gramma, someone who gives you a hug and a cookie and the world is suddenly a wonderful place. Cookie people play an important part in the lives of adults too. Poor Candida could have used some cookie people.

Marvelle and Malryn, you both just amazed me at the breadth and depth of your literary backgrounds. It's wonderful, the diversity of our SeniorNet bookgroups. Everybody benefits.

Enough said. Thanks to you all for your input and sharing. And a special thanks to Ginny. I can't imagine how many hours a day you spent at this site.

I'm going to settle in with a little trash for a while now, but will see you all again here in books a little later. In the meantime, keep reading.

Pedln:

I think you're a lovely woman.

Mal

Pedin, what lovely thoughts, thank you. Wonderful connect the dots between the Golden Bough and the little golden Christmas tree. I love the cookie people! I think Candida had cookie people in her life but she turned them away for whatever reason. Is there a way you can update us on what your French friend thinks of SS? It's metafiction for sure, rather than a traditional novel.

Marvelle

Lest Pedln get confused, 'tis I with the French friend. She's a voracious reader and I'll slip it to her tomorrow.

Pedln, I loved the lament of lack of keyword search possibility--that's the very thing I think in every discussion!

I guess one of the many benefits to leading book discussions here, in addition to reveling in the remarks of all of you, is the ability to have the last word. Hahahaaha We’re over our time limit, and it’s time to fold the tent.

This discussion has been made Read Only and will soon join our others in Archive.

Thank you all for your excellent concluding remarks and viewpoints: always much appreciated.

Carolyn, that’s beautiful, (what you’re doing to spread the word about our Books sections and SeniorNet in New Zealand), I want to copy some of that over to our active Bookmarks discussion so nobody misses it! Many thanks to you, our Ambassador in New Zealand!!

Pedln, always a breath of fresh air: going off to read trash, huh? Hahahaah I like to do that sometimes, myself, am reading the brand new Utopia now, which I absolutely love, I wouldn’t call it TRASH but others might: it sure is good: WestWorld meets Disney World meets Star Wars, escapism at its best, I love it. Just love it, by the author of Relic.

I loved Remains of the Day too, tho for other reasons.

Lou, Marvelle, Mme, Joan P, Malryn, Jane, Ginger, Pat, Norway Carolyn, hopefully I have not left anybody else out, many thanks for everything you brought to the discussion, each of your individual voices made such an impression, it’s amazing, I could tell who you are even if your name did not show, I love the way you express yourselves, all so different, all so interesting.

The Liar’s Club is not in our Archives. We did not begin archiving discussions till Marcie Schwarz took over this website (in addition to the one she had run for 10 years, the AOL SN website), it was her idea, as are a lot of other great ideas on SN, to archive our discussions. We lost more than 2 years maybe closer to three of reading before we began saving them.

I really would like to hear what those of you who plan to read it think of The Liar’s Club and if you like it the author has a new one out called Cherry which pertains to exactly what you think it might, good luck, let us know what you think. Maybe we need to open up a Post and Riposte area here in our Books for lingering thoughts on what comes up in book discussions.

We seek, in our Books & Literature folders, to appeal to everybody’s taste and ways of looking at a book, some DL’s like to take it more closely than others, everybody is different, and every discussion is different, each one lives its own life.

When we read The Liar’s Club we were quite frank and open, those who hated it said so, those tho loved it said so, there was dialogue between the opposing armies, explanation, rationalization and explication: it was a cordial and non accusatory learning experience for everybody: the goal of every intelligent book discussion.

We ARE different here, from any other site or group discussing books and we’re good. This morning the “forest,” (aka can’t see the forest for the trees) looks the same way it did, to me, when I finished the book: it’s a cardboard paste up, and the depth is painted on a false front: might not have noticed that alone, sure did in company looking closely. Thanks for being along for the ride and adding plenty of fuel to keep us going, you’ve done really well.

Tisi