Seven Sisters (Revisited)~ Margaret Drabble ~ 6/07 Export

Wow! Pass the nachos, we're off to a great start!

I really like the way we're all over the place about her. Some of us think she's straightforward, some of us think she's hiding something or devious. Some see her as courageous and strong, some see her the opposite, I like that.

Ella, I missed that one: I will have faith that something or someone is waiting for me on the far shore…: So what is the far shore? Good question and good answer from Christine, do you all agree? Good points, Christine also on the water imagery. I agree with Ella that this is very carefully written. Very.

NB: (In order to see what all the In Edit!! 29 people here have said today, just HIT Printer Friendly at the top right of the page and you'll see all the comments at once.)

Lizabeth, I think I am wrong on the Unreliable Omniscient Narrator. The Unreliable Narrator is a term that I am not particularly comfortable with. It appears it appeared in '61 and I really don't recall anybody mentioning it, but the Omniscient part appears to only apply to third person narrators ("he said, she said, etc.") , is that what you all get out of this Wikipedia article? I think you are right, she does NOT know all of the motivations of all the characters while she seems to be a mind reader with others. I may need to watch that.

Types of narrator

A writer's choice of narrator is crucial for the way a work of fiction is perceived by the reader. Generally, a first-person narrator brings greater focus on the feelings, opinions, and perceptions of a particular character in a story, and on how that character views the world and the views of other characters. If the writer's intention is to get inside the world of a character, then it is a good choice, although a third-person limited narrator is an alternative that doesn't require the writer to reveal all that a first-person character would know. By contrast, a third-person omniscient narrator gives a panoramic view of the world of the story, looking into many characters and into the broader background of a story. A third-person omniscient narrator can tell feelings of every character. For stories in which the context and the views of many characters are important, a third-person narrator is a better choice. However, a third person narrator does not need to be an omnipresent guide, but instead may merely be the protagonist referring to themself in the third person.

And of course there is a grammar error in that last sentence, but…hey? So again you have to wonder, that's from: the infamous Wikipedia on Narrator.

So as Olle says we're getting her side of the story and Hats and some of you think it's a diary after all and is not meant to be seen, so she can be honest.

If she is not being honest, will that fact bother those of you who think she is?

Thank you Joan G for the names page, I am struck by Anthea being one of the epithets for Juno, who had it "in" for Aeneas and gave him quite a fit before she was through. Interesting. I also canNOT (I apologize) help but notice that Andrew was one of the …was he? Fishers of Men? Surely she would not do that! ?!

Anyway. Hahaha

Christine asks Why does she have such a low opinion of herself and that "hope may yet be with me," But for what?

Hope for what? A new life? That's a good question. She does seem full of hope but it's a strange type of pie in the sky hope. She'll win the lottery IF she bothers to play. Oh that's silly. But it's true. But it's delusional. But it's true. But….

I also liked Christine's saying "I would have expected her to have more anger…."

What expectations do we all have of this character? What are you really expecting, come on, be honest, and how does she not seem to play along with what you thought she would be??

I can't get over "FAT" Sally, her "friend." She calls her friend FAT Sally. What does this mean? What does this show about her??

She seems quite a passive person, our nameless narrator, sort of reactive, huh? That's ok in and of itself, of course. Kind of hard when you have to make a new life.

She did NOT have to leave town!!!!!!!! Dandy said she'd head out of Dodge. Would YOU have? SHE was the wronged person, something is strange there, why does the death of the girl by drowning keep coming into this?

She wants to make a new start but hasn't she chosen a strange place to do that? I don't know enough about that area of London (Colkot, tell us) to say? Colkot what is Notting Hill Housing Trust in fill?

Surely one of the most expensive places on earth to live tho, wouldn't her money have gone further elsewhere? What about how she talks about her daughters?

Ella, good question, how would you all answer it? What IS the redeeming quality to this lady?

Depression = Negativity.

At the beginning of our writers musings is she depressed perhaps?

Carolyn

OH GOOD job, Dandy, you posted that while I was writing my own post, great list!

But, Dandy, what an interesting comment. First of all you've defined the entries, I did not realize those glosses WERE the daily entries and apparently they ARE? Are you all seeing that or did you realize it? And the comment you were interested in was:

That's the kind of friendship one can control [with a prisoner locked up], on one's own terms. A satisfactorily uneven relationship, in which I wield the power. I wield the power because at least I am free to come and to go.

So she would find a relationship in which SHE wielded all the power, an uneven relationship, [ not to mention with another JAIL image here] satisfactory. I am not sure what to think. Perhaps as you say she has been bullied so long etc….we'll have to watch for that aspect.

I personally find her defensive remarks, that is her whinging endlessly and then saying the next day I see I have whined and bleated sort of intended to let US know (but she's not writing for US) that she sees she's whining and she's not all bad, , but again, she's not writing this for us, she's talking to….? Herself? For what reason?

Have YOU ever kept a diary? I see Jean has, how about the rest of us? And if so is this the way you write? I've never kept one so I don't know what's normal. She does seem to catch the reader right away and to get you pulling for her. I am not sure why. As Pedln says she's hitting a lot of buttons, but I'm not sure, myself, what the override is.

Gum, interesting on Hannah and I love you, fascinating. I agree with you about where our book discussions take us.

I've spent the day reading Bulfinch's Mythology. I've put the links to the Aeneas story in it in the heading followed by one which thoroughly explains the Underworld and the Sibyl. IF you are finding the Aeneid a bit hard to understand, you can do no better than Bulfinch, who preceded Edith Hamilton and in some circles is more preferred. Either is fine.

What I like about Bulfinch is that he tells the story in an understandable way, brings in EVERY literary reference TO it done while he was still alive, AND tells the adjunct stories, which, in the case of the Sibyl, is crucial, I think.

Now Hats asks Does it matter whether I can believe her or not?

What do you all think? Olle sort of admires her strength and determination to make a new life. Hats says she wants to remain anonymous for some reason. Ella thinks she's indulging in self pity which several seem to think she deserves to have on occasion. Stephanie thinks she's depressed. What label would we personally put on her? Suppose she were YOUR friend? We seem to be of mixed impressions. To me it's one long litany , do the positive thoughts outweigh the negative?

I don't know why she bothers with me. I have nothing to offer (page 37, paperback)

I would not have dared to enter it [The Health Club] had I not had a passport form the old world of Virgil. I would not have felt that I had the right. I am not very bold. ([page 14)

Now I look faded and washed out (page 15)

I have always been a passive person. (page 18)

…hearing it [her name spoken by the Health Club greeters] does remind me of who I am. It reminds me I have a name.

I did not want to be too near my mother for fear she would suck me in.

It is too late for regret and remorse (page 50)

What does it matter, at my age?

She does good, but I do nothing, and that is worse. Do Good, do Bad, do Nothing. I do nothing. Fainéant.

Nothing much happens to me now, nor ever will again (page 1).

I grow ever more cowardly with age. Shame is word that haunts me. (page 5)

I'm not very noticeable (page 7)

On and on and ON.

Exsomnīs noctēsque diēsque, twice. At least.

Lake Avernus, mentioned at least 4 times…. I can't get a handle on all this!

Can you all?

Carolyn, we were posting together, too. So you also like Stephanie see her as depressed, which is causing her negativity. What IS positive about her?

Pedln!! Welcome, welcome! I agree with the little things which seem to pop up, she's managing to ring quite a few bells here. What an interesting statement on her choice of friends. If that's true, that she becomes friends with people because the ones she'd like to be friends with don't want her, then this IS a new reaching out for her, isn't it? Anais, that is. And the Vergil class AND the move, that IS a lot.

Hats, yes the Bernini sculpture in the heading is gorgeous, isn't it? Aeneas had his hands full leaving Troy, carrying his old father who himself was carrying the household gods, leading his small son by the hand, trusting and hoping his wife was keeping up, but, like Lot's wife, in all the turmoil, she turned aside and was lost. I had to stop and wonder about her relationships with her own family myself, Christine, particularly her mother whom she avoids in a Care Home. Maybe she did not come alive until the Boarding School . Something is not right here.

Welcome Jean!! So nice to see you again, I agree it's a great discussion and I agree with you, she's no Nora Roberts, but I am afraid she's something else and this time I don't want her to get the best of me like she did last time. Hahahaa I loved your mélange of emotions as you read her. I think that sums a lot of us u p actually. I am not sure the cover art is something the author had control over but as Dandy asked, the eyes missing from the hardback top photo is kind of a hint. I personally thought the umbrella figure reminded me of the little Peanuts comic strip character who always went out under a cloud. That MAY not be fair to her. She says she must go out and keep to her schedule or she will die. She IS holding out hope but it seems to me that with every step she takes she shoots herself in the foot for taking it.

I am going to have to reread this again.

What IF she did not always backtrack with negative comments about herself? Why does she include them at all? What IF she just laid it out positively? We might not believe it or her? Do we now? MIGHT we tend to believe her MORE if she added qualifiers that anybody might feel?

??

Carolyn, that's a valuable analysis: a black and white person: no parameters of grey at all, so she swings from one thing to the other. She's critical by nature and that's a learned trait, she can't help "noticing" things: Sally is fat, Julia wears rings but she bought them for herself, etc. That would explain a lot. But surely not against her own children. I can't understand her daughters in this, she's just left them ALL. Left her daughters. They turned "against her." Her former husband and town. Her mother in a Care Home, whom Janet visits. She's left verything, a new start.

Stephanie, yes, there is quite a bit of this which seems real. So you think perhaps she has been depressed for quite a while.

What do you all think she gets out of her friendships? What do you think her friends can get out of being friends with her? She doesn't even remember birthdays!

I don't understand her.

What of the GLOSSES? A gloss (the little stuff in italics at the beginning of each entry) is normally used to explain the contents, which normally are in a different language or something very erudite, aren't they? Why do we need a gloss here? And what glosses:

Look at the one right after Dandy's quoted passage in the beginning of the Third Entry:

She remembers the building years and the oxhide of Dido.

What? Didn't that sort of bring you up short? Or do you write about Dido and the founding of Carthage when you write your journal entries? What on earth is going on here?

The last time we read this I was in a hurry. I said someday I would like to look at these GLOSSES in italics to see if there's any pattern in them or in their "explanation" of the journal entries, and I think there's no time like the present. I'll bring MY list tomorrow, she has explained Dido and the founding of Carthage, what has that got to do with her Health Club? ?? We've mentioned the water images so far and the prison images, also seen in the grates on the windows of her neighborhood. Maybe we should ask what other images you see in the first section?

Maybe we should list what she DOES find pleasure in. Were you touched or not that she seems to be most pleased by the guy on the radio? Or was it the nice man in the 7-11, non personal relationships?

Since I think we can all agree the character which remains without a name so far is a bit eccentric I thought I would start today with listing how so very much she is similar to myself and I am sure many of the rest of you middle age ladies.

Middle age
Takes time to exercise
Computer savvy
Loves to play solitaire
Journals
Aware of weight for health
Loves to write
I own an ipod (she is interested in one)
Prefers the treadmill
Catholic (she appears to have gone to a Catholic school)
Questions her actions being of courage or cowardice
Self conscious of others talking about her
Avoidance issues

These are the instant similarities I saw and began feeling like I would be able to relate to this woman. As I read on I am finding her to be very difficult to understand. I find myself wondering if she has Multiple Identity Disorder or some sort of mental illness. Oh dear me, here goes the analytical side of me once again. I can't help but think she fades in and out of reality, or could it be seven sisters inside her that takes turns coming out. Ewww a bit scary.

Olle...I too feel the need to attach a name to the character to make her real. There must be some reason as Ginny stated as to why NO name has been mentioned to this point.

Ella...The sentence of her being wary as to why her friends would want to be her friend grabbed at me. It told me she does not value herself worthy of having friends, and if so there must be something wrong with the person who would want to be a friend to her. I suppose this would seem to show low self esteem, yet she is strong enough to move away from everything and live in an area of concern. (Possibly her alters inside??)

I found it interesting the seven hills of Rome, seven sisters and in the Bible seven is the perfect number. It will be interesting to see where this is going. At times I find it making NO sense at all then she gets me back into caring about her when she stays on track with her personal life. I found it sad how she does not seem to appreciate her friends.

What on earth is "Man in wormwood scrub"?? pg 8. Her paranoia about the swim suit being on inside out as a ploy still keeps me wondering about her mental state. This woman is all over the place. hahaha

If we think this is going to be an easy read forget it. And I am not even going to get involved in the Aeneid, Latin, French etc. Its over my head and I will let you all out there with the patience and knowledge address this.

Looking at the cover of my book its dawned on me since it is laying open with the flaps up I realize its like she is more of a ghost figure and appears to be coming and going. hahahah Ginny you are so right, I am finding this book is very odd for lack of a better word to say the least.

Wow! An explosion of posts, I can't believe all of you typed all you did while I was writing one long post, and you're all sooo much better.

ssthor, Now THAT makes sense. She sees her whining and realizes it for what it LOOKS like, even to her, and wants to change it. I like that and your thought she can't even admit how close to despair she is. I liked that! AND that the "journal person" is different from the ones her friends know!

THAT has got to be important, surely? Or are we all different from the person our friends know?

Christine, this is so good:

I think the narrator is so negative about everyone and everything that it can’t all be true. But I don’t know what is and what isn’t. She’s maybe better at the truth about the present than the past? Some of the criticisms she levels at people could equally well be turned on herself.

Also the bit on the glosses, it's clear great minds think alike hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. You are right, that's what's so maddening about them, they are so…..Sibylline! AND we don't know which one is the magic winning number, do we? I don't!

Bellamarie, my goodness I love lists, and in looking at yours I see a lot of red flags and interesting things of our similarities, I am glad you made it. Like Christine's comment on the glosses it's hard to know what's important and what's not.

For instance, she loves solitaire, but only one kind. Could any of you make anything out of her bit about why she preferred real solitaire to the computer one?

Then you mention this: "I found it interesting the seven hills of Rome, seven sisters and in the Bible seven is the perfect number" and she says she IS superstitious about numbers!!! But it's not the number 7.

We've had two mentions of The Seven Sisters, we need to keep track of what she says they are as they come up, maybe? Hahaha If we can keep track of anything. Just seeing these comments makes me realize how MUCH she has jammed into this.

Barbara, not to worry, you'll tear it up when you get it, that's interesting about the Presidents, thank you.

Christine!!!!!!!! The third-person italic squibs that comment on the text are very strange... I just saw that, THIRD person. She switches persons!! (That seems significant for some reason) I am not sure why but it does.

There's an unnecessary comma, because it's not followed by a subject. What's the grammatical error?

I began to respond to this question earlier today and then forgot to research it. Wikipedia has not changed my mind. No "omniscient" narrator is fully omniscient. Using any level of person--first, etc.--an author simply has a kind of bird's eye view and may or may not actually know everything about the story.

Even when a narrator is relating a story that happened in the past and there'll never be more information, the reader is sometimes invited explicitly or implicitly to have insights into what was really happening or being thought. (JMO) There's a great deal of opportunity for that in Seven Sisters. Drabble requires the reader to participate in the creation of the story. If one is not interested in doing that, it can be frustrating.

But the different interpretations we do bring are fascinating.

I'm inclined to think black and white with no gray as well. I made up my mind on the third page how it will end and I just read another paragraph that confirms it...although I could be wrong. I believe I have been in the nameless narrators spot. I completely understand her opinion on computer versus real solitaire...it's why I don't play computer solitaire. You can't look under and you don't know how many cards are left, it's completely out of your control. I think she's convincing herself of many things, although I'm not used to analyzing what I read. I have to make sure I don't skip ahead like I want to. hahahaha

Ginny you asked if anyone has ever kept a diary. I have been keeping a journal for over ten years. I must say I have a pile of them. I would buy a new one on my birthday and my goal was to have the previous one full by year's end.

When I write in my journal I can honestly say I write with entire honest feelings, yet there is a sense of wondering if one day someone like my children or grandchildren will be reading my journals, so I can say there is a part of me that may hold back for fear of hurting someone in the future years that may read them once I am no longer alive. I guess I should say at times I choose my words a bit more carefully if that makes sense.

When I journal I feel like I am talking to God and telling him all my life's secrets, fears, hopes, dreams, trials and tribulations. I feel like when I write it down it helps me to deal with whatever is troubling me or helps me analyze, accept or just find solace in the good, the bad and the ugly of life situations. I do come away with a feeling of knowing myself alot more than the person I am to everyone else. In my day to day life I am a mother, wife, sister, friend, grandmother, day care provider etc etc. So I suppose its like Joseph with his coat of many colors. In my journal I am JUST ME talking with God. I love to go back over the years and see where I was and how far I have come. The writer in me shows through my journals and there are times I embellish for sake of creativity. So while its all true feelings of who I am, one would also read them and say they can see the writer in me.

I have NO idea who this character is as she writes her entries. I have said I think there is a multiple personality disorder here or some sort of mental illness. Speaking in the third person, paranoia, depression, low self worth, negativity, scattered thought process etc etc. sure seems symptomatic of some sort of disorder.

Some of the most brilliant writers in the world had mental disorders. We shall wait and see where this character takes us.

Bella--Are you saying having multiple personas and different masks is a mental illness? I, for one, am cooked.

Isn't Wormwood Scrubs a prison? Sorry if I missed that answer.

Barbara...."Bella--Are you saying having multiple personas and different masks is a mental illness? I, for one, am cooked."

No, I am not saying having multiple personas and having different masks is a mental illness. I am saying the symptoms I pointed out seem to be in contrast to this character possibly having a disorder. She certainly does not seem sane to me.

May I respectfully ask what "cooked" means?

Ginny - Black and white people expect things of their children. They expect them to act the way they themselves would act. I think the children liked the middle class life and the nice house etc and that is why they seemed to remain close to their father. Our writer could not understand they were like this because they were young. I must admit when my kids were teens and very young adults I was disappointed in some of their decisions and their lifestyles. I held myself apart because I did not understand them. I have an excellent relationship with all my kids now because I accept them as individuals and different to myself. It took me some time to do this because of my black and white thinking. Our writer is disappointed with her children. But there is always HOPE in relationships. Relationships CAN be mended.

Carolyn

PS- someone posted while I was posting. I do not think the writer is mentally ill other than perhaps suffering from a mild form of depression but definately not clinical depression,

I just read all the posts and my eyes are blurred a bit so forgive me if some of this does not make complete sense. I am going to try to respond to some of the many interesting points made:

The sculpture: It is beyond gorgeous. But also the idea of a son carrying his father. There is something so incredibly sad about that. The father is supposed to support the son and here the son is supporting the father. Very powerful.

Names: Anthea meaning blossom. So Candida's husband got a blossom for the second marriage and Candida seems wilted. Also Anthea is an epithet for Hera. Hera was Zeus's wife. Her ex-husband is no Zeus and I think I am going nowhere with this.

The glosses (squibs?); I have no idea of what they are but do not believe they are part of her diary. They seem to be an afterthought. So Candida writes the diary and the author comments? Or does Candida put in the comments later? Or someone else who later reads the diary? Hopefully we solve that mystery at some point. They are not only written in third person but also stylistic ally in another voice.

Redeeming quality to this woman: She did not fall to pieces. She is trying to assemble a new life from what she had before. She is creating a new existence for herself. Yes, she is up and down but she had been dealt an harsh blow yet she sees somehow that this might just be what she needed in life.

(page 19 paperback) " Now I live trapped beneath an enclosing grey gloomy London canopy. It is better so. In this trap is my freedom. Here I shall remake my body and my soul."

She is writing for readers eyes,IMO, for she explains things that she already knows e.g.pg81 "I miss my Virgil evening class at waht used to be the College of Further Education, and is now the Health Club."

She has told us that already and she does not have to explain it to herself....if i was doing this journaling, i would not even have mentioned it......is there significance to the title College of Further Education?

Ginny - if the grammatical problem you had was the use of "themselves" that is acceptable these days to get away from defining the gender in a singular pronoun.

I am sick of her stereotyping everyone....at first i tho't it was going to be used as Norman Lear used ARchie Bunker, it's so obvious that it's wrong that it teaches a lesson, but as it continued, i got really tired of it. Everybody is a stereotype....Fat, Black/poor(where do they get their money???), Foreign, Sexy Julie, massage/healers, etc.

We just talked in my f2f group about how we tend to put people in a single box and miss many wonderful things about them. She mentioned on pg 8 "these two didn't 'sound' very well off, from the way they spoke."....."young people don't speak very well, do they?" (again talking to the reader, not just writing for herself.)

I'm definitely a "gray" person....of course, i'm a Libra! I don't believe in astrology, but a lot of the Libra traits do apply to me....of course, my husband is also a Libra and none of the traits apply to him.,.....therefore........i don't believe......

On pg 5 when she talked about the "Sony walkman" and not wanting to ask and look dumb, i again tho't of how wonderful SeniorNet is, one can ask any questions about anything and ALWAYS get an answer.

I had to laugh at the losing-her-locker episode. I've never done that in my awake life, but i have that dream all the time.....i can't find my locker, i can't remember the combination, i can't open it......is that a common dream? Did the author put that in knowing many of us would identify?

Christine/Ginny et al ....i also wondered about the italics statements.....i've given up on them, I've decided to ignore them until one of you explains them to me

Enough for now........jean

I just love Bernini's marble sculpture of Aeneas carrying his father out of Troy. Wonderful heading Ginny.

Nice to be here. I don't have my book yet (due in 06/06) but I'll enjoy reading all the posts in the meantime.

I've never been alienated from my two sons. Thank goodness we have a very close loving relationship. I can relate to the rest of it, even the part of having lived as a young child in a boarding school.
I kept a journal for 7-1/2 yrs. when I was caretaker for my mother who was dying of cancer. Without my journal I don't think I could have survived those years.
I kept a journal on each of my sons, during my pregnancy and for the first several years. After they entered school the entries became less as I was much too busy.

Interesting that Anchises carries with him the Lares et Penates (the household gods). I would probably have skipped right over that in the book thinking it was a typo (household goods).

Joan Grimes ~ thanks for those links to Anthea and Anais. I bookmarked the first one (behindthenames) to explore later.

Emma

"We just talked in my f2f group about how we tend to put people in a single box and miss many wonderful things about them."(Mabel)

Oh, this is one of my pet peeves. Being stereotyped is terrible and demeaning. I have been stereotyped in my life. At least, I thought it was stereotyping. It's like being a Jack in the Box. Everytime you choose to lift your head, the lid is banged down because you are too wiggly, too happy, too wildly dressed, too something or other, just not fitting the particular pattern wanted by other people.

Sadly, Probably, I have "put people in a single box" too. It does stunt growth. Our narrator is doing this to her friends. Does she see Sally's weight before she hears what Sally has to say?

Bellamarie, I am keeping a journal. I have tried to keep one all of my life. I have never been successful. This one now is going a bit better.

I think her journal or diary might force honesty out of me. While she is revealing herself, I am in turn analyzing myself. Analyzing oneself is spooky. It's not easy. You don't see all lollipops and gumdrops. I wonder, is this why her journal causes discomfort? It is a mirror. The mirror shows the narrator's good side and her bad side.

I read "household gods" as "household goods" and would have gone on thinking that is what it was if someone(s?) had not mentioned this and I did not make the connection to the sculpture until someone else mentioned it. Think what else I might be missing if it wasn't for the readers here. Probably reading the book...

As far as stereotyping, I think many people do that when they are thinking to themselves and a journal is a kind of thinking to oneself. Of course most of them are wise enough not to say these things in public because those types of comments are not socially acceptable. We are hearing what goes on in Candida's mind and she does not censor her thoughts.

It is hard not to think in stereotypes (at least sometimes) and I think it is forgivable as long as we do not act upon them in our relationships with other people. If we do, we limit our world. Once we are able to bring people into our lives who we have stereotyped, we grow out of the practice of stereotyping them. Because we are then able to see beyond our own thinking and change.

Lizabeth

I've been keeping a journal off and on for years. I've asked my daughter to burn all my notebooks (or perhaps less dramatically, put them in a garbage bag and throw them out) if anything happened to me. I'm afraid there are many passages where I'd come off as whining and self-absorbed as Candida does. I guess it's a form of therapy.

Candida's situation seems very authentic to me. The few people I've known who were left by a spouse in middle age all seem to feel that their lives have been hijacked. They had comfortable expectations of what the rest of their lives would be like and the person they trusted most took that away. It goes beyond the loss of the spouse. Sometimes they expect their children to be so outraged on their behalf that they will give up having a relationship with their other parent. But it rings so true to me that Candida feels dispossesed and that she can't seem to get past it.

Hats... "I think her journal or diary might force honesty out of me. While she is revealing herself, I am in turn analyzing myself. Analyzing oneself is spooky. It's not easy. You don't see all lollipops and gumdrops. I wonder, is this why her journal causes discomfort? It is a mirror. The mirror shows the narrator's good side and her bad side."

Hats...I so agree with you here. My journal is self analysis and therapy. And yes, we are seeing the true person, you could not have said it more perfect and its exactly how I was feeling as I read about the mirror image. I actually was uncomfortable because this person was saying all the good, bad and ugly that we all from time to time think and yes have the good common decency NOT to express it aloud.

I imagine if at this very point in my life where everything seems to be lined up and wonderful how I would react if I found out my husband was having an affair and my marriage was at its end.

Although you have to wonder if she knew all along this day could come by the way she reveals his character and the doubt her friend had of him. Still, it is very sad and scary to see the door shut to a future you expected, wanted, worked for all those years, and deserved to have in your aging years.

The main character doesn't have a name yet because of the diary format. I may have missed: the meaning of Candida and the significance of the similarity to candid? Can any of you imagine a childhood nickname: Candy? Shudder. Not for this woman.

On: Aeneas carrying his father out of Troy

His wife was trailing behind and got lost.

As did Candida following her husband and losing herself? Hmmmm... much to ponder...much to ponder

Dandy, who is reading all your posts and is appreciating your insights...Thank You!

Have you noticed how often our journalist mentions "age?" It's everywhere in these pages of her journal. It matters.

Observation - speculation - on Bernini's sculpture:

The Gods are "Most High" as they should be. The father is next highest as he is in the scheme of things; life. The son is the "caregiver" in this instance and is next in line on his way to the "far shore" (????)

I'm bypassing reading (studying) the Aeneid. It would take a course of study. Drabble is enough for now.

Ginny, I know there was a reference in these pages, maybe two, to the Seven Sisters and now I can't find it. Did it have reference to a constellation of stars? I'll look for it.

ssthor: I've been keeping a journal off and on for years. I've asked my daughter to burn all my notebooks (or perhaps less dramatically, put them in a garbage bag and throw them out) if anything happened to me.

Wow just like Vergil who directed the Aeneid should be destroyed on his death!!

I woke up slap in the middle of the night, eyes flew up, talk about exsomnīs, and I thought Joan R. I did not address your post and I wanted to. (I do hope I have not missed one person, please help in talking to others I hate for somebody's thoughts not to be acknowledged!!!!!)

She said with a name like Candida (we have not gotten to the name yet, don't you wonder why) but anyway Joan R said can we expect her to be candid? EXPECT, what does the reader EXPECT? Carolyn today mentions that "black and white" types people EXPECT certain things. Her children seem to have escaped her, is one in Finland or somewhere? They have flown the nest all but one and are alienated from her. Is it only because they took her father's side?

Do we actually have any right to EXPECT anything? Yet she's touching buttons as Pedln and BellaMarie said that we all can identify with.

Annie, I was teasing you! Since we have no right or wrong answers here, you may well BE "right" on the end and how she ends up! You made up your mind on the third page and now you see something that confirms it? Do tell what you saw!!! But not what you predict, if you like. I confess I have no idea at this point, and I have read it, many times, but it seems not? It would seem I have never read it, I am seeing so many new things, so everybody keep your own predictions, just like the Sibyl and let's see how accurate you were!

Ok you are seeing control as an issue here in the solitaire? So if you can look under (are you supposed to look under) and you know how many cards are left then you can win?

That's interesting in that it seems to be some type of litmus test to show two kinds of people, which are we all? Maybe in fact it depends on which kind of person YOU are as to how you relate to her? Black/ white/? Look under cards, don't look under cards? How DO you all approach solitaire? I approach solitaire like the heroine does the lottery.

Annie thinks she is "convincing herself of many things." So you think she's writing FOR herself.

BellaMarie, in your writing your journal, have you ever put glosses on it in the third person? "Bellamarie [or she) here worries that her grandchildren might be hurt so she is being careful" type of thing?

If you DID what do you think that would indicate?

Barbara, good point on Wormwood Scrubs being a prison, I wonder myself why the strange name, is it real? What does cooked mean? Sounds like my brain in this book . hahaaa

Lizabeth, now I took Aeneas and his father differently. His father is aged, Troy is besieged and on fire, actually, there is screaming and running through the town. Aeneas hefts up the old man who can't make it alone. None of this leave me behind son and save yourself stuff. He grabs his young son, and he, his wife, son and father make for freedom, he's been shut up in Troy 10 years under siege.

In the actual Aeneid, the old man Anchises HAS a huge part, he's too old to fight but he's the mentor, their guide, and respectfully listened to by all the heroes including his hero son, who after his father dies, actually seeks the Sibyl and goes into the Underworld from which very few if any ever return, to see what his father wishes. As an example of filial piety Aeneas would be hard to beat.

You're right, it's very powerful, both images. On the Anthea/ Hera comparison, I think we need to decide IF our heroine IS in fact likening her own Odyssey if you will (sorry) to that of Aeneas, if she, in fact sees her own adventure AS another Aeneid. On page 95 she is wondering IF she should pluck the Golden Bough just like Aeneas.

What ARE we to make of these constant references to the Aeneid?

It's fresh in her mind, she just took a class. AND she regards this class AS her passport to a new life, she says so. Without the class she would not have dared even enter the Health Club. She refers to the events in the Aeneid, the far shore, Lake Avernus, on and on and on. If I have time I'll make a partial list but you can see it in the GLOSS.

So is this just a case of a very literate person calling to mind what she just saw? That's harmless, a lot of us do it with song snatches, literate bits, movies, etc? Hoo hah? Etc.

OR is this something else? What do you think?

Lizabeth says that the glosses are not part of her diary.

They seem to be an afterthought. So Candida writes the diary and the author comments? Or does Candida put in the comments later? Or someone else who later reads the diary? They are not only written in third person but also stylistically in another voice.

Holy cow. Will you explain the bold there?

Wow.

JEAN made another incredible point!

She is writing for readers eyes.

She explains things she already knows like on page 81.

Wow. You know this woman really has the power to slip stuff over on us, we must be vigilant. One thing is for sure: things are definitely not what they seem. Or are they? Several of you think it's straightforward and understandable. Some of us are puzzled and on the fence. You read something, you get an idea but you can't identify where it came from till somebody nails it. Good job!

Stereotyping, another interesting point. Seems ingenuous, is it?

I have not had the "locker dream," have any of you? Lockers don't bother me, too much, but I used to have recurring dreams of being chased, outwitting the chaser but at the end, he caught me, clever tho I was. I put an end to those recurrent dreams once I found out how to do it.

I also used to dream I was coming up to graduation and was told I could not graduate, I lacked 3 hours in PE. Hahahaa

Good points Hats on the jack in the box effect of stereotyping, I liked your thought that the journal is a MIRROR, is everything backwards then in it? She does say she wonders if her children would even recognize themselves in it?

Emma and Hats and ssthor, since you have kept or are keeping journals, have you EVER written a gloss about yourself in the third person?

I would like us to try an experiment which nobody will see but us. Would you all please do a journal page today only, just for this, and will you please use a gloss? You can talk about anything you'd like but your gloss must be in the third person about it. Tomorrow when you get up will you honestly look at it and tell us what you think?

This will be very difficult for some of us who don't do these, who find it difficult to write down anything. Somehow in my youth I was told never to write down anything I was not willing to see on the front page of the newspaper and that's put a major crimp in my personal emoting on page hahahaa. Let's just do it ONE time, a separate journal just for this discussion on anything at all, nobody will see it. And THEN put the gloss OR will you put it first? And would it matter?

And then tomorrow look at it critically and tell us what it all means?

more...

Post 36 is Barbara, I had to go back and find out who said what:

Even when a narrator is relating a story that happened in the past and there'll never be more information, the reader is sometimes invited explicitly or implicitly to have insights into what was really happening or being thought. (JMO) There's a great deal of opportunity for that in Seven Sisters. Drabble requires the reader to participate in the creation of the story. If one is not interested in doing that, it can be frustrating.

The reader is invited. Drabble requires the reader to participate in the creation of the story!

THAT is electric. Could it BE that perhaps our unnamed heroine is creating herself before our eyes? With OUR help and varying degrees of sympathty or empathy or understanding?

Ssthor thinks the emotion here is honest. The emotion may be. I am wondering if the facts are, and I'm wondering because of the million and one contradictions AND because of the constant references to literary works. Could it BE she only came alive (comes alive) through literature, I do wonder but I tend to do that, ignore if you wish? Hahaha

Barbara and Jean:

There's an unnecessary comma, because it's not followed by a subject. What's the grammatical error?

Ginny-if the grammatical problem you had was the use of "themselves," that is acceptable these days to get away from defining the gender in a singular pronoun.

Yes that's it but the subject is singular, protagonist and the word is not themselves, it's themself which WORD does not even want to type:

However, a third person narrator Subject does not need to be an omnipresent guide, but instead may merely be the protagonist: Singular, needs to be possessive before this construction, that's two errors, actually referring to themselves: THEM: plural, SELF: singular: Danger, Will Robinson hahaha in the third person

More…

OK now it's time for all of you with linguistic ability or fast google machines to please bring to us all the translations of the foreign words (fainéant, the La Fontaine fable, the "Exsomnīs noctēsque diēsque" any references we need here. WHY does she keep referring to Lake Avernus? More water, another lake, this one deadly, even birds are said to die when they fly over it (but not in the 20th Century) the entrance in antiquity to the Underworld.

Why all the water images, the far shore, why so much on little Jane who entered her own lake, and we don't know why and went to the great beyond?

Here are the glosses:

1. She sits alone, high on a dark evening, in the third year of her sojourn.

2. She encourages herself to continue, despite misgivings

3. She remembers the building years and the oxhide of Dido.

4. She tells the sad story of her marriage

5. She counts her friends upon her fingers.

6. She prefaces the stories of Janet and of Julia with more tales of the streets and of the Club (this is the longest chapter so far)

7. She digresses to the forbidden subject of solitaire

8. She thinks of the seedless grapes, and of the sour

9. A false alarum

10. She looks back on her arrival in this strange place.

11. She wonders if true change can still happen at her age.

12. She remembers the crossing of the threshold.

13. She remembers the unpacking of the household gods.

14. She takes her first walk around her new estate

15. She first hears them speaking in unknown tongues.

16. She introduces her friends in their persons to this story. [Again the friends comprise an extremely long chapter]

17. She remembers her hysteria and fretfulness and she regrets them.

18. She thinks of the new things in her life.

19. She thinks of the many peoples of the earth.

20. She tells the story of her reunion with novelist Julia Jordan.

And…coming up…

She wonders whether she would pluck the Golden Bough.

I'm going to ask that we have a page assembled to keep track of these, now I'm going back in each one to see how many references to Aeneas and the Aeneid etc., I can find. If you like, take one and help out, because it will take forever! Hahaha

I want to be able to say at the end: She was nailed
by SeniorNet Book Clubs who figured
her out despite her cleverness.

Or will we?

What do all these scattered foreign phrases and references mean? Grab one, grab one brass ring and bring it here so we can all understand it. Since there are so many of us it won't take much time to get them all.

What kind of solitaire player are YOU?

Will you try to write one journal page and put a gloss in the third person on it, on any subject personal to you (we'll never see it) and look at it and the gloss tomorrow and tell us what you see?

Do you feel she's being honest or not?

Who do you think she's writing that journal for?

What does the Aeneid seem to represent in her life?

What other questions have we raised??

Ella, we were posting together, another good point: age as a theme. It also is all over it but her reaction TO aging is quite important, I think, or do you all? What IS her reaction to aging, is it positive or negative?

What an interesting point on the positioning of the people by Bernini!

From the internet:

Voice: The dominating ethos or tone of a literary work

So the style or tone of the writing in the glosses is quite different to me from the style of the journal. Not only in the third person, but also a different voice.

Example: The voice of a children's story is different from that of a letter of complaint.

I hope this is helpful.

I love your post and all the commentary and questions and assignments. I feel a bit overwhelemed by it all but also challenged and that is good.

I haven't journaled for years. Hmmmm

Ginny, you weren’t the only one “exsomnis” last night. I couldn’t get this tale out of my mind, still thinking of all the parallels and reminders it brings up. Candida could be my mother-in-law, put adrift after years of being a good wife and mother, after living the “good life.” Well-educated, but not trained for anything. Much like Candida. Without funds, except those supplied by her former spouse!! I would do things so differently now. We weren’t unkind, but we so enjoyed my father-in-law and his wife. I wonder now about MIL’s friends. I don’t think she was really SOUGHT. I wonder if Candida thinks anyone is seeking to know her – the man with dreadlocks, the people at the Health Club.

Yes, Ella, so many references to age. Candida is talking from both sides of her mouth there. She seems to think nothing will change at her age, yet she is a living example of change.

And more than once she refers to the “breastless” ballerinas, much like the spurned wife in Tom Wolfe’s Man in Full, who continually referred to the “boys with breasts” at her health spa. Is it the rejection that makes one obsess about one’s body?

Re: Gloss No. 9 -- A false alarum -- is that a typo or not. It's plural.

Ella, I am thinking the same thought. I do not have time to read The Aeneid along with Drabble. Focusing on one is all I can do at this time.

While reading I have been thinking about the narrator as a mother. I do not think all women are meant to be mothers. I feel the diarist here is one of those people. If I remember correctly, her daughter's legs needed shaving. The diarist did not have the nerve to tell her daughter to shave her legs. I feel she was a distant mother before the troubles in her marriage. I think she also admits to feeling jealous of her daughter or daughters. I might have this thought wrong.

I have all son and grandsons. Is it more difficult for a woman to nurture a daughter? I have heard of women being jealous of their daughters. When I was growing up, there was a woman across the street. She seemed to want to take over the conversations when her daughter's friends, boyfriends would come over. She seemed to need attention and decided her daughter's friends could fill that need.

I wasn't that observant. I was a teen myself. I do remember my mother and other adults talking about her.

Now, I see she calls the girls "snobs." While thinking about mothers and daughters, I can think of my mother and I. We had a wonderful relationship. The same with my dad. My mother and I were very close. At the same time, my sister did not feel the same about my mother. She was closer to my dad. She always had criticism for my mom.

Ginny, I think you asked yesterday "what does she like?" She liked walking her dog while in Suffolk. She also likes walking by the water. Christine, thank you for your post about water. She also seems to like wide open spaces where you can see and feel nature. She talks about cloud formations, ripe corn, etc. That leaves me to wonder why does she choose to live in a "land of foreign barbarians." Of course, she says it is here where she will find "freedom." Could she really not find a better, prettier community to live in? Is she really that poor??? She does talk a lot about the way people spend money. Young people spend too much money she thinks. I think most of us think that about young people today. My grandboys like those game cartridges, not inexpensive.

It is hard for a devoirced woman, single woman to make ends meet. I just get the feeling that the narrator is playing a martyr's part here. Does she hope by living in such gloomy surroundings she will make Andrew feel guilty or suffer? I read the word "guilty" in one of the posts here earlier. I can't remember which post.

This is my first post...ever...anywhere...on line. It's kind of scarey. What is the 'title' box to be used for? I'm enjoying the discussion about names. Coming from a medical background, the name Candida was a turnoff for me, since all I could think about was a vaginal yeast infection. I know, I know, it also means white and pure (or some such). The book turned around for me when she commented that she was happy she wouldn't have to live her entire life with Andrew. What a sneak she is! I could picture the little smile on her face as she wrote that section. (I have been married before and I know that feeling). The word faineant: sluggish, layabout. Can be either a noun or an adjective. Troilism: sex as a threesome with two of the parties being married. I have never heard that term before. I love reading books when I have to keep the dictionary at hand. Please continue to explain pertinent parts of the Aeneid. I don't think I will ever understand it. Read on!

Ginny.."BellaMarie, in your writing your journal, have you ever put glosses on it in the third person? "Bellamarie [or she) here worries that her grandchildren might be hurt so she is being careful" type of thing?

There are times I recall writing glosses which are afterthoughts to me or notations. I have at times found myself writing in the sense of the third person and feeling somewhat peculiar when I noticed it.

To clarify my carefulness when journaling so as not to hurt my children or grandchildren in the future, I would like to say its only in the words I choose to use. I find I can write with pure honesty, yet find loving and kinder words to show my compassion although situations may call for blunt troubled feelings at that time in my life. I would never want my journals burnt or thrown away. These are mine and my families life experiences and the windows for me and my family to look through. They have lived life with me and I have shared so many of my feelings with them that I don't suppose they would be surprised to read my journals, yet my fears of hurting them would be for them to feel they disappointed me in any way along the way.

I have a daughter and she and I have had a very close relationship even through her rebellious years and now her more settled years of marriage. On the other hand coming from a family of five sisters..I can say I have a couple of sisters who feel like my mother disliked them, they express today their hurt feeling left out, ugly, unloved and not a part of the family. I on the other hand have always felt loved. I have always tried to reassure them I did not see our mother show un loving feelings toward them.

This woman who shall remain unnamed at this point appalls me of how she expresses the feelings against her three daughters. How can any mother have such feelings? She seems jealous of her daughters, she seems self adsorbed and not at all a very good motherly role model. I would love to hear the side of the daughters.

Yes, Ginny I will try your writing exercise and look forward to seeing how I feel about it tomorrow.

As for people being black/ white, or grey I can say I see myself as technic color!!! I am open to almost anything, I look forward to hap stances, I marvel at disorganization although I am an orderly person per sa. My whole world opens up to anything and everything and I look forward to the unknown in my middle aged life. Maybe because my kids are all grown and my grand kids are so close to me that I feel comfortable living outside the box now.

Hello hats, Ella, Ginny and all wonderful women of USA!

How nice of you to welcome me in your book-family. Now I feel certain I’ll be comfortable in your company. But am I the only male person in this discussion? Literature is not directed by gender, is it? Although women seems to read more fiction than men and in this particularly case absolutely find similarities with themselves in the novel, I’m still surprised that the dominance is so huge. I mean much of the questions and problems are universal.

What I wrote about Candida (lovely name, by the way. Means candid as in sincere, doesn’t it?) and I think she is true, as true everyone could be when she looks at herself and the people she has met in her lifetime. The names of the women in the book are all classical ones and if Anaïs means "nice loving" it's easy (but wrong?) to think of the french authoress who wrote erotic novels and was a close friend of Henry Miller!

I’m not sure that Candida's indulging in self-pity more than most of us do, from time to time, and if so - she has all reasons to do so. But she looks back to her days as a schoolmaster’s unpaid wife with humour and a good deal of distance, and the comment “about making friends with the kind of person who would want to be friends with a person like me" reminds me of Graucho Marx who didn’t want to be member of a club that accepted members like him.

Hats, you say that she’ll remain anonymous for some reason, and I think it’s because she tries to be as objective as possible. I see it as a universal, secular person who’s dissecting another individual without condemning or defending her. Correct me if you don’t agree!

Ella, don’t you think that the far shore is what we all are looking for as the final truth and the fulfilling of our lives and dreams, maybe after many years of living with an undefined desire. And sure, I agree about the journal and thoughts. They indeed are carefully constructed. Finally, I’ll copy the “tab model” as you do and try to put it together to get a clear view of the novel.

To those who’s reading my comments: Please write me back, and point out the most horrible mistakes I’ve done and certainly will be doing, in the future. You know, you’ll be my very special teachers and beacons! (I must learn to express myself in a shorter way! Excuse me for being a filibuster. Olle

Hello Olle,

We definitely need more men in our discussions. I am glad you are here to give your opinions of our narrator. I have just been thinking of men. The narrator does not talk about men friends. Other than Andrew does she mention any other men in her life? Usually, I would think after divorce a woman would have a few men friends to take her out, etc.

Candida -- Candide?? I just thought of him and not sure why?

LOL Ginny, I don't say my guess is a correct one, just that I'm smug in knowing how it turns out LOL. The last paragraph on page three tells how the story comes out (that is, it tells me) and the other confirmation is past where we are. I think I read fiction just long enough to figure it out and then stop. I don't see this as a deep book and I think the writer doesn't name herself because she's writing a journal and she knows already who she is.
And then, of course, there is this statement...She wonders whether she would pluck the Golden Bough.

we are not stereotyping here, Ollie, so speak up and enjoy

Hats said "I have been stereotyped in my life. At least, I thought it was stereotyping. It's like being a Jack in the Box. Everytime you choose to lift your head, the lid is banged down because you are too wiggly, too happy, too wildly dressed, too something or other, just not fitting the particular pattern wanted by other people."

I love that image! It perfectly describes what it feels like when we step out of our prescribed behavior and people symbolically "put us in our place," or don't understand what we are doing. And don't we all get "defined" by each group we are a part of? And would people in one group be surprised at our behavior in another group? Are we different as mothers than we are as friends? Are we different as a spouse than we are as the "professional" or "on-the-job" person?

I think she is telling the "truth" as she feels it at the moment she is writing. I did that when i was journaling. I solved the problem of not wanting others to see it by doing it on computer and after a year or two dileting it. That provided the "therapy" and solved any problem of not being honest for fear i'd hurt a readers' feelings. Of course, being that gray, balancing Libra, i would often have an additional balancing comment the next day......maybe i'm just schizophrenic......

As a dgt i was not close to my mother, i was the youngest, born when my mother was 42 and was closer to my sister who was 15 at the time i was born, and still am closer to her. As a mother i feel i am moderately close to my dgt......do we ever show our true, very honest selves to our parents or our children? Don't we always try to protect them and ourselves? Even tho my son and i are in many ways more alike than my dgt and i, i still feel closer to my dgt than to my son. I don't have the feelings that i hear expressed often that one or the other of the genders is easier to raise than the other.....i have found them to just be different, not easier, or better......jean

I do have the impression that she was not an easy mother to know and that it may have been easier for her dgts to "side" with their father after the break-up. He seems to me to be the nicer personality.....the mother is so negative and critical.....i've lived w/ that and it's not fun to be in the same household w/ that type of person......jean

The Hares were so persecuted by the other beasts, they did not know where to go. As soon as they saw a single animal approach them, off they used to run. One day they saw a troop of wild Horses stampeding about, and in quite a panic all the Hares scuttled off to a lake hard by, determined to drown themselves rather than live in such a continual state of fear. But just as they got near the bank of the lake, a troop of Frogs, frightened in their turn by the approach of the Hares, scuttled off, and jumped into the water. “Truly,” said one of the Hares, “things are not so bad as they seem: “THERE IS ALWAYS SOME ONE WORSE OFF THAN YOURSELF.”

http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/15.html

This gloss makes more sense to me--especially the moral--than the literal translation, which I can no longer find where I googled it. Oh well.

“And Tisiphone, sitting girt with bloody pall, keeps sleepless watch o'er the portal night and day.”

Tisiphone was one of the Erinyes or Furies, the one who punished crimes of murder: parricide, fratricide, and homicide. In Book VI of Vergil's Aeneid, Tisiphone is recognized as the furious and cruel guardian of the gates of Tartarus.

From good ole Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisiphone

This etymology suggested to me for a while that I was reading a murder mystery, but I’m over that now. I think.

The book's epigraph is from Luke 12:6

1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

3 Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

It is hard for some mothers and daughters to connect. My mum is an extrovert and a social butterfly not to mention obsessed with appearance and clothing. She never reads or does anything scholarly.

She thinks I am odd because I am quite introverted. I prefer two best friends to having dozen of acquaintances. I am odd because I have a computer and have cyber pals. I am also odd because I hardly ever wear makeup and don't need to be surrounded by other people all the time.

The writer is being unreasonable if she expects two girls who have been brought up in a privileged household not to be snobbish as she refers to them. They know nothing else than the world they have been brought up in. This again is part of her black and white personality. It is not nice to be snobbish therefore her children have a flaw that she is not happy with. However Candida herself is a bit snobbish. Her remarks as she observes the young women at the gym prove this. (working girls etc) Note carefully her observations when she first moves into her flat about the neighbourhood.

Olle we are not all Americans. I am a kiwi and we have other nationalities who join in our Books and Lit discussions. I thought you might like to know this.

Carolyn

The only daughter who actively is not with her is the youngest. That one sounds as if she is out for whatever she can get. But I am not convinced that she did not give them up rather than they give her up. I have kept a journal off and on.. When in distress, I use it as an outlet. when happy,, I forget it. Hmm...fair weather journalists..

I did read three of Drabble's earlier books. But I'm loving this discussion. Just bear in mind I have little idea what I'm talking about.

I think we all have different personas depending on circumstances. Of course, if a person's missing some hours, she might want to check in with a therapist.

Is Candida clinically ill? The B&N biography and Ginny's comments on her first read suggest that Drabble is throwing out some red herrings to trip up the reader's analytical efforts. Therefore, the name Candida may be an ironic key as previously suggested. So beware.

It'll be fun to see who's (probably) correct.

Here's one explanation (from several sources):

The Pleiades, companions of Artemis, were the seven daughters of Atlas, a titan, who led the war against the gods, and the sea-nymph Pleione, daughter of titans who ruled the outer seas.

They are the sisters of Calypso, Hyas, the Hyades, and the Hesperides. The Pleiades were nymphs in the train of Artemis, and together with the seven Hyades were called the Atlantides, Dodonides, or Nysiades, nursemaids and teachers to the infant Bacchus.

There is some debate as to the origin of the name Pleiades. Previously, it was accepted the name is derived from the name of their mother, Pleione. However, the name Pleiades is more likely to come from πλεîν (to sail), because the Pleiades star cluster are visible in the Mediterranean at night during the summer, from the middle of May until the beginning of November, which coincided with the sailing season in antiquity. This derivation was recognized by the ancients, including Virgil (Georgics 1.136-138).

I think society has a lot to do with the attitudes of many of our thirty somethings. They have to live at a good address not a medium sort of address. They have to have the best of everything. This is societys fault. it has gone backwards, and appearance rules. This is fact. Magazines and the other media reinforce this culture.

carolyn

Kiwi..

"I think society has a lot to do with the attitudes of many of our thirty somethings. They have to live at a good address not a medium sort of address. They have to have the best of everything. This is societys fault. it has gone backwards, and appearance rules. This is fact. Magazines and the other media reinforce this culture.

I know what you are saying and I happily can say none of my three 30 something children buys into this. They live in modest homes, own modest cars, have the basic necessities in their homes and have many friends like them.

I agree that this character is a snob by the way she judges so many people, her children, her friends, neighbors, people at the health club, Andrew and Anthena. She speaks of the small apartment with few things in an area of uncleanliness yet chooses to live there. Is she trying to show some sort of martyrdom?

Ginny, I love to play solitaire on the computer and if we are vacationing and I have no access to the computer I will play it with cards. I do not peek and do not count my cards ever. I like the element of surprise and the challenge to win the game. What fun is it if you have to cheat to win?

Good observation, the name is not used since this is her journal and she needs no reason to write it. In all of my years of keeping a journal I doubt if my name will ever be written in my entries unless I am quoting someone who used my name in the entry.

On pp.18-35 Candida first writes about her oldest friends: Henrietta Parks and Sally Hepburn, her Suffolk friends; Janet, her "nice" friend; and Julie Jordan, her "juicy" friend.

She briefly comments on the first three and writes at length about Julie.

Why? Why does she give so little diary space for her good friends and so much entry space for her "bad girl" friend?

I have a theory, but would appreciate your feedback.

Dandy

The bad girl friend has also been a good friend. The writer says Julia has never forgotten her birthday for instance. Julia was caring. She warned our writer about Andrew before she married him and also was supportive when the relationship disintegrated.

Carolyn

Ginny, You have given us so much to think about!

1. Yes, I think the book is some kind of modern Aeneid. The nameless narrator and Aeneas have something in common. Both have fled defeated from the wreckage that their lives had become. She has left Suffolk, a place she found beautiful, to live in a place that to her is dark, gloomy, unsafe, and scary. Like Aeneas, she has decided to explore the Underworld.

Aeneas speaks to the Sibyl about what lies ahead for him and his countrymen. She tells him what his fate will be. He then asks her to take him to the Underworld, to speak with the spirit of his dead father. On the way, their travels are filled with exotic and terrifying personages. Eventually, in the calm, restful, beautiful part of the Underworld, Aeneas speaks with his father, who shows him the glorious future of Rome.

I think that the narrator’s Underworld is Ladbroke Grove. What she is seeking may be different from Aeneas, or it may be similar.

2. Fate means different things in antiquity and modern life. Ancients believed that the gods were in control, and they were fated to do their will. In modern life, we think we have a choice. Psychologists talk about “locus of control,” that is, whether you think you’re in the driver’s seat and calling the shots—in other words, in charge of your destiny—or whether you think that you’re a pawn in the hands of the gods, blown by the winds—at the mercy of destiny. The narrator seems to be of the second persuasion, with her low self-esteem, her Solitaire, and her lottery tickets. If so, that puts her in the same boat as Aeneas.

3. Isn’t the old-fashioned game of Solitaire, which I used to play with my grandmother when I was a kid, fated from the start to be either winnable or not, according to how the cards are dealt? If a high card is trapped beneath a lower card, then the game can’t be won and you might as well shuffle and deal again. The narrator believes that electronic Solitaire makes every card change in the game a new deal, that they’re not laid out in advance. That fate is constantly changing?

4. Ella said (#52), “Have you noticed how often our journalist mentions ‘age?’ It's everywhere in these pages of her journal. It matters.” Have you also noticed how often she mentions sex? I think that matters, too.

For example, recounting Julia’s early sexual escapades, she goes into great detail and recalls being thrilled by them. When Julia became a writer, “We were all afraid that Julia would tell our secrets. I had told her some of mine. ‘Don’t tell anyone,’ I had said to her, but I knew that she would tell. Writers have to tell, It’s what they do. It’s what they are for.”

This is sounding important to me, but again, who knows? Sex is a subject that most people are unreliable about.

Christina--Did you really have to do that?

I believe you meant to say today we may attribute our lives to DNA and chance or some such modern concepts. Nevertheless--a solid A+.

Everyone here is so perceptive it's almost scary.

Why does Candida prefer to complain about her daughters rather than try to talk to them and work on the relationships? It seems suspicious to me, as if she actually prefers to keep a distance from them. If she can make time for the man in wormword scrubs, can't she find time for conversations with her daughters? She calls them snobs, and while they may be, I doubt she minded it while they were all living together.

I have kept a journal for the last twenty years, and wish I had done it for the twenty years before that. If people want to read it after I'm gone, well, fine. No one will be mortally wounded by anything in it. (Irritated, maybe)

The subject of Solitaire: Once we had computers, old-fashioned Solitaire, with the cards on the table, came to feel like pushing a car instead of driving it. The only form I bother with is Spider, and I am a dogged player. If it doesn't win, I play it over with new strategies, and have found very few that don't yield eventually. This is satisfying, and I hope it is good brain exercise.

I agree with Kiwi that the "bad girl" has been the good friend- better than the others- the "good" ones. I also think this is not as odd as it might sound.

I am printing out the posts as I got in here late and have a lot of catching up to do. Some super thoughts and observations here.

I just feel there are layers of meaning under this that I have not yet gotten to. What does it mean to be a solitare player? Or is she a solitary player? Addicted to solitaire? Or to be being alone? She moves from her husband's bed. She is playing solitaire with her life. Perhaps.

As for me, I remember when I first moved out of my parents' home. I was omly nineteen.At night alone I used to play solitaire on the bed before I went to sleep to relax myself. I was very social and was in school and partying etc and I needed to come down before I slept. So it was solitaire. Fond memories.

I have no cards now. So I play online. I don't feel any difference interestingly. I like to choose the design of the cards. I love when I win which is rare because the cards do these wonderful things. They arc up into curves of falling numbers. Have you ever seen that? It is beautiful to watch. First winning and then the cards in patterns flying out as a kind of congratulations. This makes me feel like playing tonight before I sleep.

I have a friend who has a problem with depression. One of the signals that she is becoming depressed is that she will sit and play solitaire for hours. Its a signal to me that I need to remind her to do something about her depression. She becomes obsessed with solitaire. At first I could not understand how she could sit so long and play a card game and then I realised the obsession came along with increased depression and anxiety.

Carolyn

I picked up my book today (started reading it tonight). I thought Candida was some kind of STD (grin).

maggie2/27 ~ the title box is sometimes useful when one looks at the "Outline" of the people who post. There is a button to click on for Outline before and after the last post on each page.

I have never played Solitaire. I hope there is someone else here who has never played Solitaire. I have never been very good at cards. My sister did teach me how to play Five Hundred. I loved that card game. As a child, I played Old Maid. I loved that card game too. Even the games we play tell something about our personalities. Not knowing how to play Solitaire will not help in my understanding the narrator's life.

Thinking of journals, didn't Anne Frank give her diary a name. She pretended to write to another person, I think. So, her entries began Dear Kitty.

Anne Frank

Is our narrator writing to any special person or just for her own pleasure or growth?

I think our narrator uses her journal to let out her anger. I just noticed she calls her journal "this silent scroll of outrage." Maybe she doesn't know how to speak her feelings, her angry feelings. It's not easy expressing anger. I think it takes years to know how to be angry appropriately. For years I thought anger was expressed by yelling, crying, slamming a door and muttering into a pillow. From all places, I am learning from my son how to share feelings, opposite feelings, feelings that hurt without becoming like an emotional nut.

Anyway, she definitely doesn't know how to deal with Sally. I don't know if writing it down will help solve the problem. Won't she have to finally confront Sally in a personal way?

First, thank you to kiwi lady/Carolyn and goldensun for your thoughts about "bad girl" juicy Julie. She may, in fact, be Candida's "bestest" oldest friend.

Here's a new puzzlement for me: p.36...last paragraph of the "She digresses to the forbidden subject of solitaire" entry.

"There is more future freedom in the electronic version, although you are not free to cheat. But there is less reversibility. You can never rethink a past decision. The machine does not permit. It does not even permit a mistake."

The "not free to cheat" I think is in reference to Andrew. Cheating is a marriage vow "mistake".

I am not connecting the dots on these parts: "more future freedom" and "less reversibility".

Does she want freedom out of a rut of over-analyzing the demise of her marriage?

What a rigid picture this is: "The machine does not permit it."

Anyone see the bigger picture that I am missing?

Hmmmm...

Dandy

"There is more future freedom in the electronic version, although you are not free to cheat. But there is less reversibility. You can never rethink a past decision. The machine does not permit. It does not even permit a mistake."

I don't know what site she plays on but I have to tell you that this is wrong. I play solitaire almost every day on-line. I have tried a few different versions and sites. You are able to reverse a move. They also have an undo button, which would count as reversing a move. I win the game 80% of the time by being able to reverse my move. What I consider a mistake is when I overlook and not play a card, but then again all you have to do is just click through the deck and not play any cards again until you get back to that card you missed playing. Would that be manipulating, or cheating?

For the person who said if there is a high card trapped underneath you can not win, that may be the case at times but I have had more wins with a high card buried then a low card. A high card can not ultimately stop you from playing, if a low card is buried you are done because you can not progress placing the cards upon the aces.

I play for hours on end for relaxation but never out of depressed feelings. I think maybe we could be reading a bit too much into the fact she loves to play solitaire, but then again we could be over analyzing every little thing and not seeing things for just being what they are

I get the impression from her journal that Candida does not think she should play solitaire. I'm halfway out the door now, so don't have the quote handy, but at one point she congratulates herself for not playing. It's like if she plays, she secumbs (spelling?) -- to something.

I think our narrator uses her journal to let out her anger. I just noticed she calls her journal "this silent scroll of outrage." Maybe she doesn't know how to speak her feelings, her angry feelings. It's not easy expressing anger. I think it takes years to know how to be angry appropriately.

Hats, I agree. And I think that she has a lot of anger that has been seething beneath the surface for years and years. Please tell me where you found the quote "this silent scroll of outrage." I've been looking for it, since I read it in a review the other day. Thanks.

I have the hardback copy. The quote is the third line on page forty-one.

Thanks, Hats. I'm now looking for clues in the writing about writing in the novel.

Boy, this book is hard work! Every time I get a new idea--and you need a lot of 'em--I feel like I have to start the book all over again to pick out the sentences that may support it.

Maybe Ginny's right, that the reader is creating the story here. I read an interview of Margaret Drabble (Paris Review, 1978) in which she said, “If I knew what the meaning of my books were, I wouldn’t have bothered to write them.”

PDF available at http://www.theparisreview.org/media/3440_DRABBLE.pdf

What a quote! That should tell us something. I read an interview in the header. I can't remember exactly what was said, but Margaret Drabble reminded me of Candida, at least, in this one aspect. I will try to find the quote.

I feel like Margaret Drabble might have put part of herself in Candida's character. This is the quote that made me think this way. The "curious independence" in Margaret Drabble is a reminder, I think, of our narrator.

"Talking about herself, Maggie is as open, personal, warm as anyone can be, but she would never presume that anyone would want to hear her talk about herself. There is in her a curious independence - I want to say, a Yorkshire independence, for people from the North of England are known to be so singular, so bloody-minded even, in what they believe is right."

This may be my last Margaret Drabble. But not my last book discussion.

And I'm slow coming in this morning because all of your incredible ideas are swirling around in my head like a colorful snowstorm!

I love to print out the posts in a discussion! I love to read and gasp over what you've all said. I really enjoy that aspect of a discussion.

Yesterday I faithfully but with much grousing, did a one day journal page, what a disaster. I hated it. Apparently there are Journal Writers and Non Journal Writers, you ought to see it? Did any of you try the exercise? What were your results?

Then this morning, true to my determination, I got up and read it. I was surprised and vaguely disconcerted. It was VERY difficult. I kept thinking it would be sooo much easier to write a story about me rather than the real me. Soooo much. To reinvent me so to speak as others might see me.

Yesterday I had only one thought: she did not write that journal for herself. Every line I wrote I kept saying she did not write this for herself. She knew all that stuff she was writing. And that's actually what I thought. Why write XX I know that. Why write YYY I know that. I am NOT a journal writer, and she has not been either. This is another "new" thing.

I glossed mine She tries to do this once hahahaa

It failed. But it did not turn out like I thought it would. I expected hidden anger and whining and lots of...I dunno...awful things and that's not what came out. I'm surprised.

I really am.

I don't know what effect it has on me to reread it. Do those of you who keep journals reread them constantly? Once? Why?

Did any of you try our little exercise yesterday and what was the result? Who do you think she is writing her contradictory journal for?

This is Danger Will Robinson territory for me and online solitaire and what you've brought up this morning is a double whammy. I must go off and add it to the lovely great writings you've done, well worth more contemplation.

One thing I do know, she's really got us going. For instance, I noticed to my shock yesterday the first gloss in the list I did: 1. She sits alone, high on a dark evening, in the third year of her sojourn.

I just noticed that? THREE years? She's been gone THREE years? Did you pick that up? Didn't you get the impression it was a bit fresh, the confusing Continuing College that one of us asked about notwithstanding? Because all of a sudden all of her friends come to visit. They NOW want to see where she lives? Now? She's been there 3 years.

Listen, the first time I read this book, I pushed the Aeneid aside despite her constant constant hints about it, to me it was extraneous and she explains what she would like in the way she would like about it (and everything else). I trusted her. I think I have never been so angry at one person in my life as I was at the end last time, tho I don't remember the details except I appear even then to have misunderstood them. . I don't want that to happen this time, to me or anybody else. So those of you who feel in her corner, keep and hold those thoughts and understandings. We'll need them!

This is US about her right now, we're all over the charts, what fun (Patwest did this for us, thank you, Pat), in would you say every aspect, and that's good. We do not seek consensus here, or anything remotely like it. I would like , however, to understand.

I have no idea I repeat, who she is or what she's saying, but I DO refuse to be slapped in the face twice. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Not this time, Missy, let's see if we can figure her out together. This is NOT an author however that you should take for granted or on the surface only.

Why the use of the word sojourn? What's a sojourn? I'm still trying to digest fainéant hahaha Would you believe I thought that meant they feel faint? Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Perhaps some of us have a tad farther to go than others here? Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I admit to wanting to read more of Margaret Drabble. There is something about her writing style I like. I like the complicated plot, a woman surrounded with the Classicists and other countries. It would have been boring just reading about a woman writing a journal. Our narrator is mysterious and eccentric. Margaret Drabble is a genius to think or piece such a woman together from her imagination. At the same time, our narrator is not totally unknown to us. She is our neighbor, relative, friend or a part of ourselves. I can't put the book down.

Ginny, I became tongue tied or pen tied. The minute you said do the journal exercise I became shy with the paper. I definitely couldn't do the gloss. I have never read over my thoughts. Sometimes I hate my own handwriting. Now I am trying a journal on the computer. I have even thought of learning Calligraphy.

Ginny, I did the journal entry and did not win any great insights from it. My gloss was "She totes up the pluses and minuses and it’s better than she thought" about the day I was having at work. (I signed off before I got home.)

My journal keeping ended pretty much when I was in college. Rereading it was so painful that I never wanted to hear my journalistic voice again. The only other time I did it was during a bad patch in my marriage when I/we had some counseling. It was helpful to me to just parse out the things that I was hearing/thinking.

“If I knew what the meaning of my books were, I wouldn’t have bothered to write them.”

What a quote indeed!

She can't be bothered to figure out the meaning of her own message, yet we somehow are expected to do just that?

The contradictions in her character's thinking are one thing- they can be identified and understood if she has encoded Candida's true motivations within her story. If not, isn't she allowing her readers to expect the impossible of themselves?

Can she give us real clues if she herself doesn't understand what her story means?

Pondering.

To be fair, the interview took place long before this book was written. So it has nothing specific to say about The Seven Sisters. Her remark was in reply to a reader who asked her to explain what one of her books meant (I forget which one). She was outraged and got off that somewhat flippant reply.

Bloody-minded Yorkshirewoman, indeed. But it makes me wonder who she writes for, her readers or herself.

ginny, i am in the journal-writing camp and like candida i do go back and reread what i have written. i journalize for many reasons-to record events in my life, to get things off my chest, to help me process my emotions. sometimes when i reread an entry i am surprised by what i've written. i may realize my judgement was too harsh or wonder why i bothered to record something so trivial. i've frequently used the journal to spur my memory about when something happened or who was involved in an event. like stephanie h i tend to write more when i'm bothered about something. i'll write quite a lot for a while and then not write for weeks.

keep thinking, these are candida's private thoughts. they do not always reflect the way she behaves. she has friends who care about her and she's making new friends. she may find sally annoying but she treats her better than what she writes in her journal would lead you to believe, or why would sally still be her friend? she has misgivings about the people she sees in her new neighborhood, but they are private misgivings. as far as i can tell, she is courteous to the people she encounters, like the man under the bridge. she is slowly opening herself up to new experiences.

I've stopped thinking about this as a novel and now think of it as a literary puzzle. It's the only way I can keep from constantly flinging it across the room.

WOW so many posts when I came in tonight. Have just scrambled through the text and then through all these great posts. What a discussion this book has started...

I feel the Solitaire passage was more about the hand life deals us than it was about playing cards. That if one deals out the cards oneself then to a certain extent one can control the play (even by cheating if necessary). When one plays online and cannot see how many cards are in the stacks one has no apparent control - (cannot cheat either) - but more importantly someone else (thing) is in control of events and as Candida seems to think, can change the cards at will.

I think Candida wants to control those around her but has found that it was Andrew who dealt the cards and who ultimately controlled the game.

I'm going to print out the posts - so much to consider. Thanks everyone for your thoughts....more later I hope

Olle As Kiwi Lady mentioned some of us are not American - I'm an Aussie and though I am rarely seen or heard I just love these stimulating SN discussions.

Ginny, yes I did the journal exercise and came back to read it today and wow did I have insight.

My gloss was: "She ponders the past few days and wonders about what is next."

I do every now and then steal a quiet time away in my bedroom and skim over the many journals I have kept. I do find it interesting to see the feelings I was struggling with and how over time it all worked out. My journals as I have said are like writing to God for guidance, strength and answers mostly, yet the writer in me also likes to see them as novels.

Ginny I love the chart, what a perfect visual. I am just mesmerized with all the insights everyone has. I think I agree with some only to read on and change my mind. Is that what this character or narrator is doing also? If indeed she can not be asked to explain her books because she has no answers, then I suppose we are like rats in a cage spinning around the wheel looking for something we will never find.

Ginny my friend and I use that word with much endearment, I have a feeling YOU will NOT be fooled again if this group can help from it. Although, you may end this book this time feeling more satisfied and with more acceptance for what it is. Possibly a book for enjoyment, and a mystery not to be solved. Teee heee heee

I just read the Sally entry (pp. 38-41).

With friends like Sally, who needs enemies? Did it surprise anyone that Candida is critical of Sally's control freak behavior? Don't we always recognize in The Other Person our own fault?

Toward the end of the entry: "I am so mean about Sally. But she has subjected and subdued me and I must fight back somehow. I fight back on this silent scroll of outrage, because I am bound to Sally for ever. I will never shake myself free."

There it is again: freedom. Freedom must be a theme in this novel.

How does "freedom" come into play in Virgil's Aeneid?

Dandy

I'm loving this book, but can't add much to the discussion because I'm not much of an analyzer. If I was I would just be thinking that the author was in it for the money hahaha. Anyway, it's fun to read.

Three years... wow. I had been thinking less than a year. She is slow slow slow getting back to life. But then it is probably hard to recreate your life.. And I feel that is what she is doing. Trying to become another person..and not sure just what she wants the new person to be. I love solitaire and have an elaborate software program that can play literally hundreds of variations.. It is my soother.. I play a few hands each day.. And my new soother.. my ipod.. I have loade it with all sorts of songs that make me happy.. or sad...or just young again.. Hmm.. I think she uses her journal for that..

Stephanie....I so agree, I play solitaire at least once a day for an hour or so. It is my time to relax, and so when the unnamed character mentioned being proud she did not play it the one day I so can relate to that because I can get totally addicted and lose track of time.

I got my ipod for my birthday two years ago and I can't live without it. It encourages me to get on my treadmill because I love all the songs I have down loaded. I actually programed the songs to workout to so it begins slow and increases the rhythm to increase my workout. Then when we go on vacation and lounge by the beach or pool I love just laying back and listening to the softer mellow music I have.

I agree I think she uses her journal for her soother along with cathartic therapy. Its an out that she can express any feeling without any other person hearing and judging her. Although, she sure seems to judge others. hahaha

If it's a soother for her, then it doesn't seem to be working very well. I was just thinking maybe it's more like a confession of her sins.

I have no patience for Solitaire. I'm much more likely to play word games.

Why does she say she bound to Sally forever, and that she will never shake herself free?

Has Sally been dominating her during these three years since she left home?

It seems like our character has been following her own interests. What has Sally got to do with that?

She often writes what I have thought many times:

"To them (people at the Health Club) I am an old woman. They do not know that I was once a child."

People try to be kind. They open doors for me, the waitress calls me "Honey."

I was once a child and was not acknowledged as such. I was one of the crowd but now I am old and respected. I don't like it.

Perhaps I'm older than most of you? I'm 79 years old and am living alone for the first time as is our author, but my aloneness is due to being a widow.

Was it Annie who said she was alone also? There are so many posts I cnnot remember who said what.

I AM SO HAPPY TO SEE NEW FOLKS HERE - COME OFTEN, STAY WITH US. WE WANT YOUR INPUT! IT'S FASCINATING TO READ ALL THE POSTS!

"The stairs are a kind of test for people of our years. But she (Julia) took them in her stride." (pg.86)

I would have probably failed her test! It doesn't matter; our journalist, at age 60, should not be this anxious over her age yet, do you agree?

I smiled at this: "We didn't have bottled water in the old days. We drank water from the tap."

When did people start buying water and why? What is wrong with our own water that we have to buy it?

I remember the first time I was offered bottled water. I couldn't find a drinking fountain in a new trendy mall and I asked a clerk at the deli where the fountain was. I was indignant that she thought I would buy water!!!!

Our journalist so often writes my thoughts that it is startling: "I've still got my old Victorian diamond and sapphire engagement ring. I keep meaning to get rid of it, but I've still got it. I'm not sure I want it, but I've still got it."

She is alone because of a divorce, I am alone because of a death. There is a similarity. I still have my wedding ring although I've put it away. My daughter will not want it - why don't I sell it? I don't know. A journal entry.

Whew...I'm so tired with all the visiting nurses and therapists, I really don't have the energy to analyse all of this. Suffice it to say that London was badly damaged by WW2 and there was always rebuilding and repair going on.Some of the houses you might have seen did not even have indoor plumbing, so the flat Candida occupies is luxury in comparison with some of the places I've lived in in London!. If anyone is interested in having a look at a girl's school.. not a boarding one, the day school in London I attended go to the website: GodolphinandLatymer.com I still have friends left. Also, in passing, time changes places.. the London I knew does not exist any more.. even the old flat I was married from was razed by urban renewal..to the same extent so has Chicago changed since we first moved here during the 50's. Colkot

A true writer does not write for a readers enjoyment. They write because they are compelled to write, just as a gifted composer is compelled to write music. The concern with the opinion of the public is the territory of the professional writer. In other words a writer who is writing just for the financial rewards. Hence the short sharp reply from Margaret Drabble to the interviewer.

A book to me is like a painting. It will mean different things to different people. There may be two opinions on one issue and neither opinion is wrong. We judge the work by our own life experiences and our own emotions.

Carolyn

I don't think there is any deeper meaning in the connection between the constant references to the Aeneid than its a parallel struggle in two different times. Candida's struggle as to get to know herself as a person in her own right and equating that with the the struggles that go on in the Aeneid.

Candida has obviously from what she tells us gone through a bad menopause. Many women begin to question their life during this period. Often they suddenly lose confidence in themselves both in the role they occupy in their family and also in the role they occupy in the wider scheme of things. I have discussed menopause and the effect it has on many women with quite a few of my close friends. One of them, the most confident of professional women said that over a period of months she lost sight of who she was and lost all self confidence. It was a terrifying feeling for her. It is often a time when a women takes stock of her life and many a marriage falters during this time of stock taking.

I thought last time I read this book that Margaret Drabble wrote this book to show her scholarly sister AS Byatt that she too could write a book that had some scholarly content. The two sisters are apparently quite competitive. However I am enjoying the parallels between the Aeneid and Candidas story much more than I did the first time. I am also understanding Candida much more than I did the first time. I have more empathy for her this time round.

What is the meaning of this book. So far to me it is a book of Hope. I think the widowed or the divorced could take from the book the message that there is hope of a meaningful life and finding oneself after the loss of a spouse either by divorce or even death. I do not find this book depresses me. In fact I can't wait to read further. I see through new eyes!

Carolyn

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo wow, you guys are SMOKIN! What a joy.

Maggie, we are honored to be the recipient of your first ever post online anywhere and what a post it WAS! Hahaha I absolutely SHRIEKED yesterday when I saw our "Candida" as a yeast infection! Of course! It's been nagging me all this time, what a hoot. Yes the root candidus in Latin means shining white. Glittering white. (That's where we get our word candidate, because of their dazzling snow white robes in ancient Rome), candidatus. I guess it's not good to go into how they got white in mixed company, huh? Hahaha And fainéant hahahaaaaaaaaaaaa my goodness. I guess I can forget they faint a lot? hahahaa

Thank you Emma for answering Maggie's question on the title bar, (HEY! It's kind of a gloss? It really is? Hahahaha) You and Maggie are thinking alike on the Candida, can't wait to hear what you think of her at the end.

Maggie! I loved this one: "What a sneak she is." Whoop! In any other way? Hahaaa

I also love a book where you need to have a dictionary near by, and I hope you all will heave to or she will defeat us with her arcane references.

Olle, we are fortunate to have a lot of men in our Books & Literature on SeniorNet , but that is unusual in itself. Of those men, only two do Fiction, so you are a rare treasure and we intend to hold onto you! Welcome! As you see Gum is from Australia and Carolyn from New Zealand, so we're getting all points of view here. Colkot is originally from England. I don't think most men are comfortable talking about emotions as we do here, it takes a rare specimen and that's YOU!

Please don't apologize for writing too much! That's why we're HERE! Filibuster all the day!!

I liked your thoughts on the "distance" that she's seeing these things from and the "objectivity."

Kidsal, Candide! Again something that I had forgotten, I once read that book when I was much too young and was shocked green. I still remember it. It's….Voltaire? Good one!

Jean, I loved your take on Hats' remark about the Jack in the Box, did you all find those frightening as children? I used to hate them, and clowns for some reason. But now tell us why you write daughter as dgt and the other names like mother father out long? (I'm getting in the swing here of analyzing, nobody is safe) hahaah (now don't retaliate and ask why I always go hhhahaha. Hahahaa I really liked your thoughts on the different personas we MAY present to others.

Are we all different around a good friend than we are a casual one? Are YOU the same with everybody, children if you have any, spouses, relatives or best friends? Or are you different?

Lizabeth, thank you! And thank you for the VOICE definition and how it applies to the glosses. I particularly was struck with this: "the tone or style of writing in the glosses is quite different to me frm the style of the journal. Not only in the third person, but also a different voice."

Now that I had missed! I knew the glosses irritated me but I did not know why.

I loved your take on solitaire, too. Playing solitaire with her life, levels. Love it. I've played that game when the cards all fly up too, great fun! Is that Tri Peaks?

more....

Pedln, good for you noticing a contradiction in her statements about age and her living a change, do hold on to that one, I think it's important. I don't notice things like this, I think that's why she got me the last time. Good thing we have all of you! I'm thinking the alarum is British spell but I am not sure.

I like it better than alarm. Haahaha

Goldensun, I agree totally: "if she can find the time for the man in Wormwood Scrubs, can't she find the time for conversations with her daughters?"

She seems not to be communicating, she is not trying. And "distance" is the word. I truly wonder why. Could it BE that being abandoned by all and sundry makes her more of a martyr?

Hahah Goldensun, I play computer games too. And I want also to win. I hate to say it but some of the games I sometimes play I think ARE rigged, does that make me a nut? Hahahaa do de dooo dooo.

I don't play Solitaire but one game Three something. I play to beat my score since you can't win.

(I am very fond of the Hoyle computer games, do you all know them? You don't play with "real" people but computers made up like real people. I like their puzzle games and their board games, including, brace yourselves, Pachisi, remember old Parchesi from your childhood, and you have 3 opponents and they are very talky. It's amazing how challenging that old game can be. Very relaxing)

I agree with Hats, tho on her daughters that she made at best a distant mother, she seems somewhat shocked to see them distant and grown. I had boys, too, Hats and a grandbaby boy. ** Whose daddy JUST called to say he's cut his first two teeth! ** I am sure I would have been a hideous mother to girls so I'm kind of glad, not that I was any better with boys. It seems strange to hear her talk down her own daughters.

Christine, wonderful post in 80, loved it. Yes she mentions sex a lot too.

We are really in your debt and what fascinating things you have brought here, I did not know the story of the Hare and the Frogs! So they decided to jump in the water and drown themselves, etc. WATER again. She never stops talking about WATER, I started making a list of those too but stopped when her Wormwood Scrubs guy, the murderer drowned his victim in the water. I don't believe that story, at all. LOOK at it. I don't believe it.

I'd like to see the literal translation, are any of you able to translate the La Fontaine literally? I can't believe it says that.

And then Tisiphone, holy smoke. The guardian of Tartarus, Guard of the Underworld of Hades who sleeps neither day or night, she …THAT'S the source (or Vergil is, in the 6th book, of the Aeneid of the remarks on exsomnīs noctēsque diēsque.

So she….why is she… Golly. Hahaah I loved that thinking it was a murder mystery, I've thought everything under the sun and am still thnking. More engaging then sudoku or however you spell it.

And golly moses on the Luke 12:6 source of her epigraph, that verse 2 is absolutely frightening in this context! Annie, did you see that? Hahaha

Carolyn, do you think that Candida's daughters are apples not far from the tree? I LOVED your post which you posted while I was doing my first one, I want to come back to it!

Stephanie, what an interesting point, she gave THEM up, but she says they abandoned her and it's Andrew's fault for making them take sides.

Barbara, I think that's a good question, is she ill? When you get your book I will be interested in your take on the scene in the locker room and the girl with the lump. Are you a psychologist by any chance?

OK Christine has given us one definition of the Seven Sisters: constellations as some have mentioned. There appear to be two more mentions in the first chapters, does anybody know what that is referring to??

Hats, how does 500 go? I love card games and nobody will play with me in person because I always win. Or.. er… Is Pedln here? Ah… I always almost win? Hahahaa

Today in the auto repair shop I started out boldly with my pen and drabs of Drabble. Today I was going to conquer this thing! Hahahaaaaaaaaaaa The car was ready too soon, but one thing does seem clear from reading ALL of your intelligent, absolutely delicious, dazzling and insightful posts (besides the fact you're an incredible group) and that's approach. Some of us are journalists, some are not, some play solitaire online some do not, and some like to approach a work analytically and some normally would not but are humoring us hahahaa.

She WOULD be the litmus test for that, too. Hahaaa I counted so MANY references in the first few pages to classical things, the Aeneid, etc., it mucked up my pages and now I have to number them differently. It's absolutely SATURATED with them. What does THAT mean? If we had stuff in the headings I think I would put that expose of her solitaire theory, tho, there's another one, who knew? Another false mask torn off.

Annie, I have to say hhahaa, I specifically read the last paragraph on page 3, and now I need you to explain IT to me along with your theory when we get to the end.

But I do understand looking for clues as you read. I think Christine talked about parsing and having an analytical approach. (That was before she wanted to fling the book across the room) hahahaaha, I laughed out loud and long at that one. What great senses of humor you all have! Love it!

To me a book is full of clues if it's carefully written as this one definitely is, there's no doubt about that or her writing talent. There may be some doubt about what she's saying. See this?

This is the Loeb introduction to the Aeneid and they are trying to explain Vergil's debt to Homer's Odyssey? Look at that. Somebody has counted the number of times a certain phrase occurs in Homer! That's the way I read. If she's going to mention some classical reference in every other line I can't ignore it. Is she leading ME down the path? She may be, she did once, we'll need you all to steady the boat while we all run off and do crazy things, don't you love it?

OR do you ignore all that at your peril? What ELSE are you seeing that puzzles you?

BellaMarie, so you actually HAVE used some third person glosses, can you remember why? What your thinking was at the time? I can't see a lot of rhyme in hers, is it an outline I wonder.

I agree Gum, what a discussion this book has started and that's the best kind, something TO discuss with such a wonderful company!

I agree with you about her feelings toward her daughters, and you and Hats both think there is some martyrdom going on here.

more....

Dandy, what excellent questions you ask! What is your theory of why she gives so much space to Julia Jordan? I totally agree with your question on solitaire and pointing out her strange statements there, I am not connecting the dots either, but I think I gave up trying, seriously!! Everybody read post 88 again, (hit Printer Friendly because the Subscriptions DO miss posts and see what you think).

Thank you BellaMarie for that correction to her own statements about online solitaire!

Thank you Christine for the Drabble interview, I have put it in the heading and printed it out, looking for clues, clues, clues!

Hats, I think your post 99 hits it on the head, she IS a good writer, she IS taking us on an interesting journey, I'm not sure where we're going. I'm not sure where she's been, and I agree there are pieces of her character in all of us. I don't think that's a mistake.

I'm enjoying hearing about those of you who keep journals and who tried our little experiment. I LOVE your own glosses. Maybe we should do one day with all glosses, I'm brimming with ideas for this discussion!

Oh good point Gum about control and Andrew holding the cards! I liked your idea about control and the manual solitaire! I agree, too, about the discussion, it's the best kind of book for this and the best group.

BellaMarie I also enjoyed your post on the discussion:

Ginny I love the chart, what a perfect visual. I am just mesmerized with all the insights everyone has. I think I agree with some only to read on and change my mind. Is that what this character or narrator is doing also? If indeed she can not be asked to explain her books because she has no answers, then I suppose we are like rats in a cage spinning around the wheel looking for something we will never find.

I think Gum is right tho, we'll be satisfied when we're thru that we have given it our best, some of us twice. Haahaha

Dandy, so you think that she's seeing things in her friends that are really her own traits to criticize? I agree with you about this FREEDOM thing. Everything is either a jail or a pathway to freedom. Or water. Or the Aeneid. I am not thinking that is the main theme of the Aeneid but I don't mind being corrected, the Sibyl would like to have been freed of her curse, and of course those in the underworld wanted to be free and Aeneas apparently wanted to be free of Dido (and maybe Juno's wrath) but I still don't think that's the main theme, and the Sibyl is one story Drabble DOES relate and quite early on.

So what's the domiant theme, here, do you think? Hahahaha

I just looked up sojourn. Do you know what it means? It's in her first gloss.

" 1. She sits alone, high on a dark evening, in the third year of her sojourn.

(Is that a quote from somebody, do you think?) Sojourn means "to stay as a temporary resident."

??? A TEMPORARY resident??

Ssthor!! YOU'RE not Margaret Drabble are you? In disguise? I puzzled and puzzled over your italics till it hit me! THAT'S your gloss?

she may find sally annoying but she treats her better than what she writes in her journal would lead you to believe, or why would sally still be her friend?

HAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Love it! LOVE the spirit and cleverness in this bunch, we'll enjoy it even if we don't know what's going on. Do we? hahaaa

As to why Sally and the a others still are her friends, THAT is the 64,000 question.

I want to know what you all think about her always calling her FAT Sally? Like a child or something?

Goldenrain just said "It seems like our character has been following her own interests. What has Sally got to do with it?" That's a good question. There is something WRONG in her relationship with Sally. Could it... what IS it?

Ella good point: Our journalist so often writes my thoughts that it is startling Yes, she seems to have struck quite a chord in most all of us. Except of course for the water and the Aeneid and the other odd stuff about Sibyls wanting to die and her wanting to hear that for herself.

Thank you Colkot for that description of the London area, and for the school link!! It would seem the area, like our protagonist, is reinventing itself.

Yes, I agree, Carolyn, that's what makes our book discussions so rich, the large numbers of different people who see different things and aren't afraid to try, but here you are asking the $75,000 question: what's the book about so far?

I mean we've read almost 100 pages?

What is the meaning of this book. So far to me it is a book of Hope. I think the widowed or the divorced could take from the book the message that there is hope of a meaningful life and finding oneself after the loss of a spouse either by divorce or even death. I do not find this book depresses me. In fact I can't wait to read further. I see through new eyes!

What do you ALL think? About this or anything else?

Frankly, "sojourn" bothers me.

Ginny: I just looked up sojourn. Do you know what it means? It's in her first gloss. " 1. She sits alone, high on a dark evening, in the third year of her sojourn.

(Is that a quote from somebody, do you think?) Sojourn means "to stay as a temporary resident."

??? A TEMPORARY resident??

Dandy: Think: The Underworld = London...Candida's neighborhood...the PriceCutter grocery...What could be more seedy? Yuck!

She moves on...as does Aeneas.

Dandy

But then, why move THERE? London even seedy London is expensive. There are, as Hats said, nicer villages. Why live there?

For the anonymity (sp) maybe? It's all I can think of. Small villages often are vicious?

??

Ginny - She moves to London to live a completely different life from the one she has left. The reason she buys in that area is that she cannot afford to buy in any other area as close to the heart of the city. It is probably a prudent move as the city is in the process of rejuvenation at the time she moves there. The seedy areas are being bought up and transformed into areas where the affluent will come in.This has happened in every city in the world in the last two decades and it goes on and on. The area I lived in as a child close to the city centre was a modest working class area. Now its a place where the houses fetch over a million dollars. The city life is the complete opposite to the one she has left. Gradually she intends to gather new friends around her. Her old friends remind her of her old life.

Carolyn

I just finished reading all the new posts and in the process have picked most of the polish off my nails.

I did the journal exercise yesterday. I went to my health club (had to do that), sat in the cafe and wrote in longhand which is something I rarely do. Then I wrote the gloss. "She wanders purposefully through her day." I liked the contradicton between wandering and having a purpose. That made sense to me. But then this morning I read the entry again and changed it to "She wanders purposefully through her day focused on small details."

So not only is there the original contradiction but now there is another one between the notion of focusing which is supposed to be for important issues and the very small details that I described in my journal. Like eating a toasted bagel. Like deciding if I had time to undress, spend some time in the sauna and then get to work. And so on. So many small unimportant details. But that was the kind of day it was.

Reading it today disturbed me. I thought it was so clever yesterday. Today it sounded like I was attempting to make unimportant decisions sound like they were worthy of my writing about them.

I am beginning to like Candida. She speaks her mind. She tells how she really feels about what she sees and does.I enjoy reading her commentary. It sounds like my internal thoughts, the ones I only dare to share with my best friend. Sometimes mean. Gossipy.Funny . And often rather wicked.

Candida is starting to feel like a friend. She has had a hard time with her husband/children situation whether she contributed to the problems or not. She has my sympathy and now she is trying to climb up and out into something new.

Oh and I have a sauna story. Years back I used to go the sauna in another health club to take a break during lunch and once I fell totally asleep in there. I woke up and my body was covered with large red blotches. I ran into the shower and cooled myself off. They did fade sometime later that day. I learned never to lay down in the sauna when I was feeling sleepy. Not a good idea at all!

I can tell you there are many days in my life where I would have to fill the page with minute detail about my day or the page would be blank. LOL! I do live a pretty quiet life.

Carolyn

Ginny, I haven't played Five Hundred since long before my sister's death. I can't remember the rules. I do think you had to reach five hundred. It really is a fun game.

I had forgotten until someone mentioned it, that Margaret Drabble seems to have written this particular book because she was trying to one up her sister. Or at least most of the critics seemed to feel that. The story is engrossing to me, but I must confess that the Aenid part is not... Oh well..

kiwi lady, i agree with you completely. candida seems to feel she needs to make a complete break with her former life in order to establish a meaningful life elsewhere. aeneas was driven by fate to keep moving on until he achieved his destiny of founding rome. perhaps in her own way candida feels driven to move on until she finds a new life. in some ways she is thrilled by the process and in others she seems to be surrendering to what she sees as her fate.

Great thoughts here today and a real Health Club Journal experience! Love it!

Laughed out loud with this one:

"I just finished reading all the new posts and in the process have picked most of the polish off my nails." Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I sure enjoy this discussion! A laugh a day keeps the doctor away!

So quite a few of us think this is a real break for her, living in the city. That makes sense and quite a few of us have sympathy for her. I need to read this interview posted yesterday, it's huge, and I need to find out a little bit more about her own background, her sister, I don't think her sister figures in this one but I could be wrong... but…

I got up thinking about Dandy's question about freedom.

Candida IS free? Isn't she? Why does she go on so about freedom? She's FREE of encumbrance except her own self. She's FREE of husband whom she hated. She's free of her children who turned out to be snobs, apparently she's free of her mother in a nursing home, her friend Julia has to visit her, and it sounds to me as if she's about to be free or would like to be free of at least some of her friends, SOOOOOOOOOOOO what's all this about FREEDOM and JAILS and prisons??

ISN'T she free now? And if not why not?

And I really liked Carolyn's question on so far what's it all about, Alfie? What IS this about SO FAR? I think if we can honestly ascertain that at each stage it will do us good.

And what's all that about the bird? Again some of us have had the experience of looking thru a glass which was twisted but why would you continue to look thru a glass darkly? Deliberately? Just for the effect, as looking thru a kaleidoscope? Is there any significance as to what kind of bird it IS?

AND why would somebody making a new life for themselves want to go to Cumae (I can see wanting to GO, I just did that myself last year) BUT…. for the purpose of hearing the Sibyl say, "I want to die" to her?

I don't want to hear that? Would you? Aren't we talking about a new LIFE?

I have to tell you, this morning on CBS the editor of the AARP magazine was talking about his new issue, 50 things to know after 50, and one of them was "Leave the Mitt at Home."

Harry Smith rushed him through his explanation which was that at 50 you have to grow up, and you have to leave off the idea that the coach of the baseball team will look up in the stands and see you and say "THERE'S my man, come on down and pitch a few innings and help us out."

I had no idea other people thought like that? Do you? Does hope spring eternal after 55? What sort of hope? I have long held the dream that one day I shall awaken and be discovered as an Olympic athlete. Can you believe that? I was quite the jock in my younger years, but I can't quite decide, and have not for years, which sport will be my own. Since I can barely shuffle out to the car I doubt it's track and field, tho one year, and not too long ago, I did "throw" if you can call it that, a 5 pound bag of sugar, having carefully checked the weights and the distance records for women, in the yard. I think we can cross off the shot put. hahahaa I can't say I'm in "training," for any sport, being out of shape and all but I do have this dream, lurking.

Even tho I'm not doing one thing about it.

I am not sure I am seeing that in our girl here. She has faith that someone or something will be waiting for her on the far shore. It's sort of a passive faith. Is that the same thing? What IS that sort of reasoning?

That far shore can be a lot of things. Olle talked of one thing but the Aeneid talks of another. I wonder which Drabble means. We're going to find out. Meanwhile I may be able to throw a spear? I'll try a rake. Probably be in bed for a week. I truly did NOT realize that was a common syndrome, so I'm glad to talk about it.

Being "grown up" he said requires you to come to terms with who you are, to accept responsibility.

Since we're saying if we like her or we don't, (I knew that exercise would be instructive) I don't. She seems open and forthright, she says the things we most can relate to about aging and ourselves, she's a bit of all of us, what's not to like? She's hit every button. Her words and thoughts are one thing, her deeds another. She's also abandoned her mother and she is hateful about and distanced from ALL of her children and her friends. Would you want her for a friend? She seems like a tremendous weight, to me. A weight not in flesh like Sally but in spirit.

Nope, no thank you, I'll leave her to Fat Sally and Juicy Julia but I do want to understand her, and it's obvious I won't unless you all do the job! Hhhahaha

What would you say you like the most about her and what the least, and which prevails at this point? Let's look at her character, what are her best points, her worst? Which prevail?

Wait…wait…let's look at her CHARACTERIZATION, that's something different.

What would you say how would you characterize this first section? Why does she keep going on about FREEDOM and jail images, prisons, etc?

Of all of the people to volunteer to help surely a man who drowned and raped a woman would be last on her list. Don't you find that just a tad coincidental?

Ginny asks "Of all of the people to volunteer to help surely a man who drowned and raped a woman would be last on her list. Don't you find that just a tad coincidental? "

This may be kooky and off the wall, but perhaps it's because she felt she was drowning in her marriage. We already know she had begun to dislike Andrew. Then a drowned girl freed her -- with the aftermath being the affair between Andrew and Anthea. And now she's relieved that she doesn't have to spend the rest of her life with him.

I would hate Andrew, too, for putting me down in front of guests -- as he did with the goulash. That makes me wonder if Andrew was already in the affair at the time -- and now he's doing things to make his wife want out. Reminds me of someone I once knew who out of clear blue sky and not relevant to anything else, in front of others told his wife that he really disliked the outfit she was wearing. It was not long after that that marriage was like Andrew, Anthea and Candida.

Ella Gibbons said that Drabble "often writes what I have thought many times'

How I agree. I was squirming in my seat at times as she reflected some of my own attitudes so much so that I think I must re-examine some questions. I wonder what else she has in store for me...

Kiwi Lady hit the nail right on the head with her "A book is like a painting. It will mean different things to different people. We judge the work by our own life experience and our own emotions"

That is just so true. There are as many interpretations of a book as there are readers...John Steinbeck put it like this:-

"He (the Reader) will take from my book what he can bring to it. The dull witted will get dullness and the brilliant may find things in my book I didn't know were there. And just as he is like me, I hope my book is enough like him so that he may find in it interest and recognition and some beauty as one finds in a friend" (Journal of a Novel, p223)

From the posts it seems many of us are experiencing recognition and finding interest and the brilliant among us are certainly finding unexpected treasures...

Ginny: Alarum That was the spelling I learned at school. It went out of fashion here sometime around 1950 when alarm became the common spelling. I rather liked the old style and used it for a long time after its demise - still do in my mind.

Did you notice in She Counts her friends upon her fingers Candida tells us that:

"Two Suffolk Friends and myself make three

Two friends from St Anne's and myself make 3

Three daughters

Three and three and three"

and yet a page or so before that she says " I had been so tired and so busy at Manchester, with the two little girls in hot squabbling heaps in a small suburban house..."

I'd like to know:

Is this a misprint in my edition? ( Ulverscroft Large Print Edition),Possible

or is it a slip by Drabble which got past the editors? Unlikely

or is it a slip by Candida? If so what does that mean. Which daughter is being left out?

I finished the book, I couldn't help myself, was too difficult to stop. I want to thank you all for choosing this book as it is so difficult for me to read fiction but I found this one to be such a page turner. I feel like I am Candida, I think we all are.

"with the two little girls in hot squabbling heaps in a small suburban house..."

Gumtree, I interpreted that to mean that Martha, the youngest, was born after they moved to Suffolk.

Interesting -- alarum for alarm. Confused me, 'cause it's also a genitive plural for ? wings? in Latin. Glad to get the real scoop.

I think Candida is not free from herself—her gloomy thoughts, her bad feelings about others, her passivity, her certainty that no one likes her. She can’t escape who she is, although she longs to. She feels fated to be this way.

In the third year of her sojourn: perhaps this refers to the Underworld of the Aeneid. Where your spirit goes after death depends on how you lived your life. If you die without the proper burial rites, then your spirit must wait 100 years before Charon will ferry you across the river Acheron. (This happened to Palinurus, who fell into the sea.) In Elysium, another kind of sojourn takes place. The blessed spirits reside here, drinking from the river Lethe to lose all memory of their former lives on earth. After 1,000 years, they will be born again to new bodies and new lives on earth.

Question: Could we review the story of the Sibyl of Cumae? I was kind of surprised that anyone would think that the sibyl would have survived to modern times. So I must be missing something.

Man at Wormwood Scrubs: She doesn’t appear to be too horrified at the crime her prisoner is doing time for. Or is she in sympathy? “He is a lost soul. And so, perhaps, am I.”

Drabble and her sister: who knows? The book she wrote just before this one is The Peppered Moth, which she clearly acknowledges is a portrait of her mother—and not a very flattering one. As far as I can tell, she got some flack from her family about it. So maybe she decided to make the meaning of her next book so obscure that no one in her family would figure it out. Or anyone else.

Hey, I’m grasping at straws here. Another idea I have is that this is Margaret Drabble’s 9/11 novel, since it was published in 2002. But these are the thoughts of a desperate book reader.

Candida paints herself to us as somewhat unlikeable. She does not like herself. Her self esteem is at an all time low that is why she is so very hard on herself. However she does not project this needy image to others. There are many references to this in the book. Therefore I do not think as someone said Candida would be a heavy burden as a friend. Remembering that all we know about her is from her own perception of herself it is in all probability a far too harsh judgement. I can remember my counsellor telling me "Quit beating up on yourself." Candida in her journalling is beating up on herself.

Carolyn

Having been away only two days, I returned to find over one hundred posts. If I join in now, I might refer to details that everyone thinks we've beaten to death days ago ... but I'll take a chance.

I put this novel down, unfinished, a few years ago, because I disliked the narrator. Even after reading all the great comments here, I still dislike the narrator (Candida, a candidate for the most unlikable woman?)

Due to unhappiness in my own parents' marriage as I grew up, I've always disliked women who whine. Get on with your life was my thought, even as a young teenager. I had thought that women who hate their husbands should move out and "get a life".
So here is Candida, having a life of sorts. Why talk to a prisoner if she is already depressed? What a poor choice of a volunteer activity. Why move to a neighborhood in London where walking the streets feels unsafe? Is she trying to punish herself by living a life she dislikes? How can she live for 3 years in a neighborhood if she finds it scary? Why not move somewhere else?

In summary, I have little patience with people like that. But this is literature, so our author may be painting a portrait of Candida who is not likable for a purpose. I'm still hopelessly confused about what direction this novel is taking. It doesn't feel like either the Odessey or the Aeneid to me. But I do enjoy reading what everyone of you write, so I plan to stay tuned in.

Lastly, I cannot stand the idea of writing a diary or journal. I was out of town when Ginny suggested it: the trip ate by homework, Ginny! No thanks. Too much introspection for me.

Don't knock introspection Mippy. I think I am a much nicer person when I did do some soul searching ( with help) a few years ago. Its part of moving on and also knowing who you are. I did not have a clue who I was when I hit menopause!

Carolyn

Ahem, I am pacing myself. <g>

This morning I read yet another Candida contradiction. She withdraws from the Suffolk small community to select a London apartment because it is "central, and lively, and colourful...Suddenly the idea of being central and colourful rather than marginal and marginalized seemed to me to be infinitely luminous and numinous." p. 45

Being Andrew's wifey must have been demeaning.

At least Candida is a multi-faceted character. Drabble can not be faulted for flat characterization writing.

Some rambles:

p. 48: The three daughters' names appear in a bold-face font. And they have decidely different personalities. They don't even seem to be related.

Candida and Ellen? Like mother, like daughter? I suspect so. Both have withdrawn.

p. 58: Dandelion wine? There is such a concoction? I thought it was just an imaginary beverage in a song. I shall have to ask about dandelion wine in my wine shop. Hmmmmm...

Dandy, who will read 16 pages today, did journal write (took five years to get all the anger out!), and who does like both the book and Candida

Carolyn (Kiwi) ~ I'm glad introspection was helpful for you. I'm reluctant to engage in self-analysis. As my background was in science, not literature, I've always tried to keep novels and my personal emotions at an arms length. Will this group draw me into the other camp? It's hard to resist, if Candida's voice sounds like any woman one has known.

Just checking back, to see my typo: the trip ate my homework, not by homework ... weird typo department ... and anyway Ginny, who is our beloved Latin teacher here in SeniorNet pointed out this isn't a class, here, it's a conversation in her living room. Back to the sofa for me.

LE LIÈVRE ET LES GRENOUILLES - II.14 Jean de la Fontaine

Un lièvre en son gîte songeait (Car que faire en un gîte, à moins que l'on ne songe?); Dans un profond ennui ce lièvre se plongeait: Cet animal est triste, et la crainte le ronge.

THE HARE AND THE FROGS trans. Gordon Pirie

A hare one day sat thinking in his lair (There’s precious little else to do in there) And he was feeling pretty blue - That’s something hares are subject to: Fear gnaws away at them inside.

I can't figure out how to get the lines to break. The full poems can be found at http://www.brindin.com/pflaflie.htm

Mippy- I think many people can identify with the insecurities that plague Candida in this first part of the book. If they did not have all the insecurities I am sure that any woman has at least one. I love this book because I love the fallibilty of the human spirit and I also love the way the human spirit can rise up again and again. I think we are wonderfully complex beings.

The human psyche is absolutely fascinating to me. ( Even if I was born a black and white personality!) I am enjoying this book so much I think I have myself grown up ( even at my age) since I read the book for the first time four years ago. Perhaps I could not distant myself as I can now from the character. I think I still had too many of Candidas traits. IMHO it is never too late to understand oneself. I know because I now know myself I can relate so much better to others and I know that I am much less judgemental than I once was. (overcoming the restraints of that black and white personality perhaps?)

Carolyn

I have one frustration. I am not familiar with these Latin terms. For example,

Statu pupillari

"It wasn't as though she herself was in statu pupillari, but the connection nevertheless seemed more than vaguely unprofessional and improper..."

Ginny, is it possible to make a list of the phrases and mythological persons we are coming across?

Carolyn, what a wonderful post. I like Candida for the same reasons. I think we, as humans, never fully understand ourselves. It is a process of understanding that will last until the last days of our lives.

Hats- I think that phrase meant that Anthea was not a pupil of Candidas husband and the phrase went to go on to say that it felt vaguely indecent because she was a mother of a child at the school.

Carolyn

Carolyn, thanks. I have been wondering about that very thing. Is it unethical to have an affair with a parent of pupil? Of course, it is unethical in Andrew's case because he is married. What if he wasn't married? Is it unethical to have an affair with a pupil's mother or father?

Seven Sisters is a London district.

I don't like the fact that she left her mother. She says her mother is failing and she is shamed. The two do not go together in her mind. Maybe she is ashamed to let her mother know her marriage has failed. It's possible her mother might have enough strength to look down on her for not holding the marriage together. The mother might think Candida should have stuck it out. I can't believe she is so hardhearted she would purposely leave a sick mother behind not if the relationship were a good one in the first place.

I liked the book and I liked Candida. Seven sisters...oil companies, colleges, constellations, etc, etc.
I have lived here in this 'unsafe' and 'scary' neighborhood for 15 years. I don't move because my beloved gardens are here and the neighborhood children call me grandma. I still think we are all Candida at least partly. We are only reading her thoughts, not her words. I especially can relate to how...oops sorry, will post that comment later in the discussion.

Ater my mother died, the minister of a church we (occasionally) attended stopped by and left a paper pertaining to a ceremony asking for forgiveness. He said that whatever I regretted not doing while she was alive I could acknowledge and ask for (her and God's?) forgiveness. I felt so self-righteous about the modest things I'd done, I told him I could think of nothing, and I continued to believe that for years.

As I reached my mid-fifties I realized how helpless and lonely she must have felt--after five spinal fusions--when my much-adored step-father left her for her younger, healthier brother's wife. I should've taken my two young children the four hundred miles and visited and talked with her at least once more than I did.

More than that, I regret my own arrogance in wanting my mother to think that my life was perfect. What a gift it would've been to us both if I'd shared my disappointments and failings. We could've related honestly and comforted one another. But I was still doing what daughters sometimes do--insistinging my mother see me as a superior being who'd found the key to happiness. I guess it was pride and ignorance not overcome in time to help my mother feel less isolated in her sadness. One of these days, I'm going to search for that paper.

like candida. i think she has been brave. when everyone in suffolk, her daughters included, expected her to graciously step aside for andrew's new love, to continue as if no betrayal, no upheaval had taken place, she refused. she chose her neighborhood because it's what she can afford. she mentions a settlement and alimony, but these days that's seldom adequate. a woman of her generation and situation would have been expected to function as a support to her husband in his profession, play the role of the headmaster's wife. she has no work experience to speak of, the jobs she would be qualified for would be very low paid, and she's making her money last as best she can. i like the way she confines her bitterness to the pages of her journal, hides her bewilderment and despair and even manages to have the occasional hopeful thought.

notice that in her long conversation with julia, candida listens to julia's problems and difficulties. does she then relate how she told julia that she can't get over being dumped, she's sometimes frightened in her new neighborhood and she misses her perfect little georgian house? no, she's largely positive and upbeat with her friends and saves the self-doubt for her journal. who knows, maybe she'd be healthier if she did cry on someone's shoulder but that's not who she is.

So many of you play solitaire. Sudoku is my game -- like the little recent spelling bee champ, I like the way numbers come together. It must be a family trait -- can't tell a story without hearing "when did that happen, how old was he/she."

I want my timeline --
1.It's the third year of her sojurn
2. Andrew and Anthea will soon celebrate 1st anniversary
3. Anthea's daughter Jane drowned 4 or 5 years ago -- Candida can't remember? That kind of surprises me. You'd think Candida would remember how old she was on the day Jane drowned.
4. But Ellen was already living in Finland at that time, because Candida had received a birthday card from her, and I'm assuming Isobel was married then, also? Martha probably an early teen.
5. So Andrew and ANthea were an item, but not yet married when Candida left Suffolk. Discreet of them to wait, but no doubt the finances had to be settled first -- the lump-sum buyout, the alimony.
6. Which came first -- Jane's death or the bad goulash?

Interesting that her father had set up a pension for her to begin when she was 60. I had a friend several years ago whose parents had set up a trust for her which she could receive at age 55. She felt insulted -- as though they didn't think she could handle money. And she was divorced, raising five kids without any support from her ex-husband, who lived in Mexico. Candida seems to have a grasp of her financial situation, however good or bad it may be.

Pedln...now I will try sudoku. I saw a book just this morning in a store and wondered what is was.

I work crosswords too, the tricky ones that have some sort of twist or theme are the most fun, but the Herald Tribune books cost lots less. I have never managed to beat Inspector Morse's time- have tried just for fun- but I know it was fake (who can even write fast enough to fill one in eleven minutes)??

Thanks for putting together the timeline. It has revealed to me that things did not necessarily happen in the order that I'd assumed they happened. I just reread the goulash incident and wonder what sort of a cook she was- not very good by the sound of it. If she'd just browned the meat first there wouldn't have been any disgusting yellow globs. Aside from the goulash, I think that Andrew must have had a lot of anger toward her to have said such a thing. There are two sides to every story, but of course we won't hear his side (without another book). I, for one, would love to hear it.

I wish I could get a reliable picture in my mind of what these various people look like.

Pedln: I'm a bit stunned by your timeline. I thought that Jane's death and the marriage breakup were much closer together. Laying things out that way is a very useful exercise; I'll bet you've done it before.

I will have a lot to think about as I drive to NY tomorrow for a weekend visit with my mother.

So far I like Candida (despite her name)a lot. Anyone who has been divorced, no matter who instigated it, seems to go through a period of self doubt and low self esteem. After all, the marriage failed which makes you a loser. Drabble (through Candida) is an incredibly insightful woman. I find myself agreeing with her often. Especially when writing about friends. Who hasn't had a 'friend' who just uses you up? Not many of us, certainly not me, are brave enough to eject them from our lives. That is how I see Sally. Candida obviously does not like her but doesn't know what to do about her. I did not do the journal exercise. Some of us are writers and some of us are readers. I am happily entrenched in the latter camp. The irritation I feel with Candida is her inactivity and unwillingness to get into the game of life. I worked at my profession for 41 years and am loving retirement so much I am thankful for every day. But I don't believe I would love it so much if I hadn't worked to attain it. My guilty pleasure is sudoku. I've never been much of a solitaire player. I also love bridge. I have to mention a Groucho Marx quote because I don't want Margaret Drabble to get credit for it. "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member". My husband, a journalist, remembers what all the funny guys have said and when I read that line I had to ask him who said it first. I missed the three year thing too. It's definitely time for her to move on which I am confident she will do. I hope she tells us more about Anais. Thanks for the bio reference. It was news to me that she is A S Byatt's sister.

Interesting posts today as usual. Just a few brief comments:

1) teachers having affairs with the parent of a pupil--

It is a no-no definitely. I know of one case---a teacher (woman) who had an affair with the father of one of her pupils. She had to leave the school. They subsequently married and she has a much higher than just a teacher position in the region. Go figure that. In some sense, she was rewarded. Most people know the story and gossip about it, but she is definitely doing better career wise than before.

2) I loved this from Annie3: We are "reading her thoughts, not her words." That is exactly how I feel. Thank you.

3) The man in Wormwood Scrubs-- Now that really puzzles me. How did she get involved in doing that kind of volunteer work with that kind of man? And what does that have to do with everything or anything? I am still perplexed. It is certainly a controlled relationship. He is not going to leave. The relationship has clear boundaries. He is not gettting out anytime soon and so does not pose a threat. Did she select him or was she assigned? And the name "Wormwood Scrubs"? Any significance to that? I am fascinated by being so puzzled (smile)

4) And for those of you who are following carefully, after picking the polish off my nails last night reading all the posts, I did go for a manicure this morning.

Wormwood scrubs is a really grim prison in the UK. I don't know if that has anything to do with anything LOL!

Well, I said I was NOT going to get into reading the Aeneid and lo and behold I spent the entire afternoon using google to research the poet Virgil and book VI since Candida has mentioned it and is about to go on her journey to Italy.

I found this very interesting.. Journey to Italy (books 1-6) Virgil begins his poem with a statement of his theme (Arma virumque cano…, "I sing of arms and the man...") and an invocation to his Muse (Musa, mihi causas memora…, "O Muse, recall to me the reasons…"). He then explains the cause of the principal conflict of the plot; in this case, the resentment held by Juno against the Trojan people. This is in keeping with the style of the Homeric epics, except in that Virgil states the theme and then invokes his Muse, whereas Homer invokes the Muse and then states the theme.

Note... Candida explains the cause of the principal conflict of her plot and like Virgil she states her theme and invokes her Muse.

Also in the manner of Homer, the story proper begins in medias< res, with the Trojan fleet in the eastern Mediterranean, heading in the direction of Italy. The fleet, led by Aeneas, is on a voyage to find a second home. It has been foretold that in Italy, he will give rise to a race both noble and courageous, a race which will become known to all nations.

"In medias res (Latin for "into the middle of things") is a literary and artistic technique where the narrative starts in the middle of the story instead of from its beginning (ab ovo or ab initio). The characters, setting, and conflict are often introduced through a series of flashbacks or through characters relating past events to each other. Classical works such as Virgil's Aeneid and Homer's Iliad begin in the middle of the story."

(Note the gloss says in the third year of the sojourn) and Candida is in the middle of her life. Also note that this whole journal as we are calling it is through the characters, setting, and conflicts introduced through a series of flashbacks or through the characters relating past events to each other.

So one thing we can draw on the comparison of Drabble's Candida is that she is writing this in the style of Virgil's Aeneid and Homer's Iliad.

More so Aeneas is on a voyage to find a second home. As Candida has come to "The Seven Sisters" (a Plan of the London Minor Canonries Estates, also showing Seven Sisters Road.) to begin her second home.

http://www.collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/collage/app?servi.../,collage.cityoflondon.gov

After reading this I at least think I am understanding the title of the book which undoubtedly has nothing to do with her having seven siblings. And the style in which the author is writing.

Give me a few more hours to take in everything else I found that is piecing this puzzle together for me at least. I will gladly share as I unravel this web she weaved.

Here is another interesting site to help you with the Cumaean Sibyl. http://www.mhhe.com/mayfieldpub/mythology/links/Cumaean_sibyl.htm/

One of the characters in the last Drabble book I read (A Natural Curiosity) volunteered visiting a prisoner. The visits didn't seem to help the woman. I wonder about the significance of her musings about freedom on one hand and prison themes on the other.

This discussion has brought up so much I missed that I have begun to reread the book, slowly this time, trying to ferret out the real Candida. The shell-pink sweater set fad that she talks about brought back memories of school. Everybody wanted at least one lambswool sweater, and matching sweater sets were the rage.

When Julia comes to visit (p. 87 in my hardback book) she (Julia) is wearing a little black dress.

Not a conspicuous or pretentious little black dress, but a plain jersey knee-length wool number, the kind the lower-middle-class magazines used to tell you, that you could 'dress up' or 'dress down'

Just a minute! The lower-middle-class magazines? And she calls her daughters snobs. Is this just a case of the pot calling the kettle black, or is it a hint about the way Candida views her childhood friend, the rich and successful Julia?

Merriam Websters on-line dictionary

Main Entry: sis·ter Pronunciation: 'sis-t&r Function: noun Etymology: Middle English suster, sister, partly from Old English sweostor and partly from Old Norse systir sister; akin to Latin soror sister, Sanskrit svasr

1 : a female who has one or both parents in common with another

2 often capitalized a : a member of a women's religious order (as of nuns or deaconesses); especially : one of a Roman Catholic congregation under simple vows b : a girl or woman who is a member of a Christian church

3 a : a girl or woman regarded as a comrade b : a girl or woman who shares with another a common national or racial origin; especially : a black girl or woman

4 : one that is closely similar to or associated with another <sister schools> <sister cities>

5 chiefly British : NURSE

6 a : GIRL, WOMAN b : PERSON -- usually used in the phrase weak sister

7 : a member of a sorority

Since I immediately decided to join this book discussion under the impression this book was to be about sibling sisters I decided to look up the definition of "sister". Now that I am reading this book and realize the title has nothing to do with Candida having seven sibling sisters I have drawn my attention to the area in which she has chosen to begin her new life in England in a section called, "The Seven Sisters." Knowing Drabble this too could be one more ploy in leading me astray. lolololol I am finding her writing very amusing and entertaining to say the least.

Just one more little bit of information I found in researching today:

The Pleiades The stars we now call the Pleiades were once seven beautiful sisters called the Maya-Mayi. Every man who ever saw them wished that he could marry one, or even two, of them.

One day the seven sisters used their digging sticks to open up the nest of wood ants to eat the larvae. When they had done so they sat down to enjoy the feast, but they didn't realize they were being spied upon by the warrior, Warrumma.

Warrumma crept close to the sisters. He quietly reached out his hand and took two of their digging sticks and then retreated to his hiding place. The five sisters who could find their sticks continued to gather food, but the two who couldn't find theirs stayed behind. Warrumma jumped up from his hiding place and seized both girls around their waists, holding them firmly. They screamed loudly but no one heard. They struggled but Warrumma was too strong.

When they had finally stopped screaming and struggling, Warrumma explained that he was lonely and that he would take care of them and that he wanted to marry them.

The two girls travelled with him, but always looked for a way to escape. One day their chance came. They had to cut pine bark to make a fire. As they climbed the pine tree it grew and grew and grew right up into the sky, here they were welcomed by their five sisters who were waiting for them.

http://www.questacon.edu.au/html/the_seven_sisters.html

http://www.spaceweather.com/images2004/31dec04/skymap_north.gif

My brain in now fried from too much information in one day so I shall go to bed and hope to sleep.

What page are we on ? I think I'm caught up. Has the translation of the La Fontaine fable "Le Lievre et les Grenouilles" (sp) been posted ? If so, I missed it.

Say it isn't so. Schadenfreude - a serious affliction for many of us as we grow older. Long for illnesses and death of others. Malicious glee experiences from someone else's misfortune.
This is certainly not true of me !

I do hope Candida gets back in the lives of her daughters. I'm not sure what their ages were but young teenage girls (I think) tend to want to be ~~where the money is~~ with daddy. And daddy probably gives them more freedom than mommy would.

She too hangs onto a word and repeats it, repeats it, repeats it three times.

dandy lion ~ there is Dandelion wine. I have a recipe somewhere from long ago. First you have to wash those dandelion leaves really good.

Now Candida wonders why she never got paid for the teaching she did where Andrew was the headmaster.

I was discussing this book with one of my friends recently who spent a lot of time in England. He said he has seen "the seven sisters" and it is also called "the white cliffs of dover". I have a long-time friend who was born there (I forget the exact name of the place).

Emmabarb, thank you for telling about The Seven Sisters. With my limited knowledge I only knew about the district talked about in the book. I have heard of and maybe seen the White Cliffs of Dover. I hope Ginny will show us a picture.

Seven Sisters is also named in the constellations. "I can see the constellations. The Great Bear, Cassiopeia, the Seven Sisters, the Swan. All these I have seen, or fancied I have seen." The narrator does love literature and nature. She is not an ordinary woman. I see Andrew as very ordinary. Who named the girls? I think Andrew must have named the babies. Candida would have named her girls after gods or goddesses from Mythology or one of the stars or planets. There names would have been extremely extraordinary. How much did Andrew control Candida? Didn't she speak of never having been to London?

I think she has missed quite a bit of life while living with Andrew. How much of our lack of independence or dependence can we blame on a wife or husband? Is it that easy to pull away and just take your life back and live it your way? I don't think it is that easy.

Even before Anthea Candida didn't love Andrew. Why did she stay? She didn't speak of a great maternal love for her girls. Was she afraid to leave because of the gossipy people? This book, for me, raises more questions than it gives answers. I think all journals do raise questions. If a person had all the answers, I don't think a journal would have any necessity.

I think someone wrote about the constellations. I would like to reread that post. I hope the search will work for me.

Edit: I just remembered the hometown of my friend, it's Swanage.

Woman's hour ~ Margaret Drabble talks about her book, The Seven Sisters....look for the little yellow button to "Listen to this item". (Shucks, I can't open it, it's a .ram file and I don't have that program.)

Are there many locations named The Seven Sisters?

Emmabarb, thank you! I can't open it either. I will try again later. Now, it's playing!

Pedln's Time Line!!!

Holy smoke, how did you get that out of what she's written here? I love this discussion!!!

I got up thinking we don't know, was it Goldensun who asked, anything of Andrew's side, at all. He's not very well fleshed out, I thought, a cardboard character of stereotypes. I need to go back now and figure out what's going on in the context of the one constant we seem to have here in the story of our brave woman gone wrong: the time line.

I know some Yorkshirewomen. Remember that TV British Detective series with the woman who plays the detective...takes place in Yorkshire and she formerly played Hyacinth Bucket on hahaha Keeping Up Appearances? When it was time to do the program she said in a televised interview, "I come from that area. I know those women. I can play this part."

Have you ever seen the show?

I know some of them too, personally.

No nonsense.

What would a no nonsense village have thought of that time line? She leaves him. A year and a half later he remarries.

Those are the facts.

What's the TIMELINE of the affair? Apparently he did not take up with Anthea till it came time to comfort her after the death of the child, do we know how long ago that happened?

And what charges have been raised against him by her in her inmost thoughts, which seem remarkably scathing of others? He commented on the goulash (which I think WAS beastly, that was a hateful comment. I would have hated that remark too)..and he..... I am confused over the sequence. Everybody loves him. She hates him. What else has he done? He wants her to sub when a teacher is unexpectledly out. She does, unpaid.

Except for Latin. I hooted over that the first time and said you go girl, you're right, Latin is a serious subject, and ran right on, she pushed my buttons then. Then after attending a billion conferences since 2003 on the state of Latin "facilitators" in the UK and the US I have changed my mind. Like he's going to find somebody who can teach it on a Yorkshire hillside? Even here on SN we have had pitiful letters from Principals of US High schools about their retiring Latin teacher and the death of their classes, can we help? It really IS a desperate situation.

He really needed her then. Anybody who has been in teaching a long time has taught almost everything. Of course they've been paid, too. I once taught PE for an entire year.

There are two stories here. No, I take that back, there are more stories here. Every time I start to wonder about the inconsistencies she throws in a pitiful poor me sort of thought that anybody could relate to, and of course we want to see her succeed, as we would want to. We all would like to think we, over 50, could "make it" in this situation, and I sort of pick up the pom poms again: rah rah, you go, girl. That's OK, you can fudge on this and pass over that, after all, you're the wronged woman, and we all have unworthy thoughts. We understand, we're on your side, and we want you to succeed, because you're hitting a lot of points in our own lives, we would like for you to succeed.

But the FACTS are she moved out a year and a half before he married again. She left her children, or the one left in the home. The two not in the home she appears to have cut off communication with too. ?!? They took HIS side because they are greedy? Huh?

One lives in ?Finland? She has always been a homemaker and not worked outside the home? She left her mother. I need to go back and see whose "shame" we're talking about, but she apparently has not even been to visit her mother in 3 years, is that what you get out of it? She casts off people like a caterpillar does an old skin. Not just acquaintences, she, I am beginning to think, has been the caster, of her husband of many years, her children, her mother.

I mean we really CAN'T blame her mother here, can we? Or can we?

OK, she's out to make a new life. That's OK. She's like an ingenuous child in recording her experiences. That's very effective.

I have not read any other Drabble, is she this good with describing her characters in the other books? She's got us hoodwinked, said the old crone at the happy baptism of the princess, she really does. Croak croak.

I have loved everything you've brought here and have more to say later, sure we can get up a list of terms and sure we can do more on the Sibyl, tho why she keeps talking about the Sibyl is beyond me. I am happy to see BellaMarie taking up the sub theme here, Dandy to take up the similies and writing style, and Pedln the time line, this is really a superior group. I love those who can sympathize with her. Hopefully we can understand (I don't) how she has woven all of the extraneous elements also into her theme. She's not much like Aeneas unless you consider his leaving Dido ("the devil made me do it, my dear, er...the gods have decreed I shall found Rome"). Dido didn't fall for it. hahahaa

(Have you mentioned the Sibyl in the last week outside of this discussion? Or wanted to hear her say "I want to die?") Her constant sub themes are maddening.

Or FREEDOM. One reason she may not have wanted to take the Latin class is probably because she knew there are almost no people qualified to teach it, and she'd get STUCK. And then she would not be free.

Just like she'd be stuck with her mother who is embarrassing and talks of Jesus. She needs to be unstuck. That's OK. She also needs to be honest with herself, and with us, because even tho she's not writing this for US, we're reading it. And some of us feel quite supportive of her, others do not, others are on the fence, that's ok too.

We do need to watch what she's saying?

Why the WATER images? She admits she was not much of a mother figure to the school chidren, but the death of this little girl seems to be obsessing her, water, water everywhere and nothing substantial to drink.

She keeps mentioning Avernus, over and over, I'm going to count today in between keeping the baby, how many times. Lake Avernus, another body of water, is a lake of death. Everytime she mentions it it's a reference to death by water. It's the ancient entrance to the Underworld, she keeps talking about it. I was interrupted Wednesday in my count, I'll do it today.

I love a discussion in which everybody is all over the place!!!!!!!!!

Great points from all~! Loved the quote on what the reader gets out of a book. If we read to find out who we are and to see our own experiences validated and succeed, we'll need to figure out what's going on. More later, I need to reread this with an eye to the writing, just the facts, ma'am, and put my own emotions and projections of my own feelings aside, I need to read it again in the context of the time line. Golly moses!

How many themes, no matter how you personally feel about Candida, do you see in this first 95 pages? I don't think it's too early to talk about themes, let's see what we think the main theme is in this early part. Would you say it's hope? Betrayal? Loneliness? What do you think about the themes of the first section? Which one seems the strongest?

Which theme seems to mean the most to Candida?

Bellamarie, thank you for the story of The Seven Sisters and the links. I lost it last night.

I see betrayal on the part of Andrew and Candida. Andrew betrayed Candida. Candida betrayed her girls.

Think about themes? I have put forth: Freedom. Here's another: Starting over. Begin anew. "Do over." (from my childhood and a child's self-permission to try again) Hmmmmmm...

Here are some oddball observations. More to come later in the day.

p. 60: What an eerie scene! On the first evening in her apartment, Candida "crossed off all the used-up days (on her new calendar) in red pen. I crossed them out heavily til the paper was dented by the ballpoint. I obliterated them." Shudder. Red? Anger? I suspect so.

p. 61: Here is a pretty word picture/choice of words. "...I see a young yellow fox with a white apron..." Made me smile...a wry, English smile.

p. 66: Anais bursts into this novel. What elan! I think I am going to like this character and her splashy style. I suspect she will do wonders for Candida when she goes into her "I am in a funk" mood.

Dandy

Dandy, I don't think those are ODDBALL at all!! I think they're great!

Annie, I am glad you finished and enjoyed the book and we'll look for you to tell US at the end what she said! Hahaha

Pedln I don't think this is kooky at all: This may be kooky and off the wall, but perhaps it's because she felt she was drowning in her marriage. We already know she had begun to dislike Andrew. Then a drowned girl freed her -- with the aftermath being the affair between Andrew and Anthea. And now she's relieved that she doesn't have to spend the rest of her life with him

The drowning and water images are very strong, she may well have felt drowned.

And I agree on the goulash, he MAY well have been in the affair at that time, but still that was a nasty remark. I wonder if it was the only one in what…how many years?

Gum, I liked the Steinbeck quote, very much. I think perhaps I'll put it in the heading. I think also it's true what Carolyn said, "A book is like a painting. It will mean different things to different people. We judge the work by our own life experience and our own emotions" I think that's true too, that's what makes our book discussions here so rich.

There do seem to be three daughters, but it's hard to pick out what she's saying, she seems so candid yet I am not sure she is.

Christine, safe trip to visit your mother and I liked this, and think it's true: I think Candida is not free from herself—her gloomy thoughts, her bad feelings about others, her passivity, her certainty that no one likes her. She can’t escape who she is, although she longs to. She feels fated to be this way.

Will she finally find the freedom she seeks? IS there freedom other than that she will find by casting herself upon the waters as she says initially? I hope those waters are not Lake Avernus.

Did you take her remark about wanting to hear the Sibyl as literal? It's hard to know how to take her. Fey? Romantic?

Carolyn, this is a good point: Remembering that all we know about her is from her own perception of herself it is in all probability a far too harsh judgement. I can remember my counsellor telling me "Quit beating up on yourself." Candida in her journalling is beating up on herself Yes and as Maggie has said this may be normal she has also said she feels betrayed. I am not sure WHAT image she projects to others, what do the rest of us think?

Mippy I agree this is fiction and the author is making this up. That's why we really can't ignore the words. I am not seeing the Aeneid yet either but there are enough references to it to choke a horse. I hope we can figure it out together.

more...

Good point on yet another contradiction, Dandy, there are MANY of them, what do they mean?

OH I missed the daughters names being in bold face!!! Oh~ I am missing a LOT here, I wonder why~!

Thank you for the poems, Christine. To make the line break type < br > (but all together) after them or hit enter twice.

Hats, I also paused over statu pupillari, because pupillaris means of or belonging to an orphan or ward…actions on behalf of orphans. You always seem to hit on important things.

In the UK it's used to mean a member of the student body so Carolyn is right there, but it's an odd word, pupillari refers to orphans. Sometimes pupillaris means the heir named in place of a deceased orphan.

That's not the normal word for student but again it is a British term.

I personally stopped over it because of the word and because I think she MAY be hinting something else there, in her oblique way.

I'll get up a list of all the definitions of foreign phrases we've brought here and put it up over the weekend, that's an excellent suggestion!

It's amazing how many definitions and times Seven Sisters is mentioned so far in different contexts, I like that, it's confusing as is, to me, the character, very complex!

Barbara, good points on mother/ daughter relationships, none of us are perfect! As Gum says we're all squirming.

SSthor, good point on how Candida does listen to Julia's difficulties. Why do you think she doesn't mention her own situation? How are we to know what she said to Julia? Candida is our only reporter.

Goldensun, that's a super comment, how DO you all see these characters physically? Do we have any sort of descriptions except for Sally and Julia?

??

Now Maggie thinks she is going to "move on," and is confident she will. What do the rest of you think??

Good points here this morning!

Lizabeth, me too, great questions on the man from Wormwood Scrubs, I have no idea, very puzzling. I like a book with puzzles, perhaps she will explain that, and a lot more, later! Hahahaa

I have no nails to polish. Ahaa

BellaMarie, good points on the in medias res technique of the author and the Seven sisters Road and area and the Aeneid context, I am glad you are doing that…where are you seeing "Journey to Italy (books 1-6)" Whose explanation or translation are you reading? (Mine does not say Journey to Italy, that's somewhat stunning).

I'm not able to get the Sibyl link up but in response to Hats' request, here are two references to her from the Bulfinch link in the heading:

First here's Michelangelo's concept of the Cumaean Sibyl (there are many sibyls, prophetesses of the ancient world who usually spoke in such riddles they could mean anything). I don't know why anybody consulted them, they came away with what THEY interpreted it as (like a book discussion actually

) and then when things went badly the other side of the coin could be seen.

Cumean Sibyl From The Sistine Chapel Ceiling, Buonarroti, Michelangelo(1475-1564. Sistine Chapel, Vatican City

Not much of a beauty, is she? But apparently Apollo fancied her:

From the Bulfinch link in the heading:

“I am no goddess,” said the Sibyl; “I have no claim to sacrifice or offering. I am mortal; yet if I could have accepted the love of Apollo I might have been immortal. He promised me the fulfilment of my wish, if I would consent to be his. I took a handful of sand, and holding it forth, said, ‘Grant me to see as many birthdays as there are sand grains in my hand.’ Unluckily I forgot to ask for enduring youth. This also he would have granted, could I have accepted his love, but offended at my refusal, he allowed me to grow old. My youth and youthful strength fled long ago. I have lived seven hundred years, and to equal the number of the sand grains I have still to see three hundred springs and three hundred harvests. My body shrinks up as years increase, and in time, I shall be lost to sight, but my voice will remain, and future ages will respect my sayings.”

My favorite story of the Sibyl is of the 9 Sibylline books:

YIKES!! I am so disappointed I can't FIND this old lithograph I have of the Sybil offering the 9 books to the king and packing them up, DRAT!!

The following legend of the Sibyl is fixed at a later date. In the reign of one of the Tarquins there appeared before the king a woman who offered him nine books for sale. The king refused to purchase them, whereupon the woman went away and burned three of the books, and returning offered the remaining books for the same price she had asked for the nine. The king again rejected them; but when the woman, after burning three books more, returned and asked for the three remaining the same price which she had before asked for the nine, his curiosity was excited, and he purchased the books. They were found to contain the destinies of the Roman state. They were kept in the temple of Jupiter Capitolinus, preserved in a stone chest, and allowed to be inspected only by especial officers appointed for that duty, who, on great occasions, consulted them and interpreted their oracles to the people.

I love that story, don't you?

Emma, we're up to page 95, see heading for the lines and yes Christine has posted the translation twice of the Hare and the Frogs and very surprising it is, too, it's another drowning! Hit Printer Friendly at the top right of the page, you won't want to miss one word! The solitaire thing blew me away. I'm glad you caught up.

Thank you for her interview ON Seven Sisters! I'll put it up, but I'm going to wait till the end to listen because I want to make my own interpretation, right or wrong and then I really NEED her to tell me what she meant! If it has spoilers, maybe some of you might want to wait and discover things for yourselves, I am so glad to have it!

Monday we'll move on to the next part. I've forgotten what happens and am half afraid to go! I have a new thing I'd like to try then, too, and this is just the group to do it!

If you will, of course.

OO I missed this! She too hangs onto a word and repeats it, repeats it, repeats it three times.

I did NOT notice that, good one!

The Whte Cliffs of Dover? Seven Sisters, holy cow! Hahaha

Yes we have a photo of it from the Caesar class here:

I wonder how they get the Seven Sisters out of that? !? Thank you! If we made a list of the references to Seven Sisters alone it would fill a page! Hahaha

Oh Hats, you DO come up with the questions!! Who named the girls? I think Andrew must have named the babies. Candida would have named her girls after gods or goddesses from Mythology or one of the stars or planets. There names would have been extremely extraordinary.

Hahaha

Do you all think that Candida's interest in the Aeneid is of a long standing or newly rediscovered? I am thinking it's a new fad, her class, her interest, I don't think she cared a lot about it when her children were young, but she sure is obsessed with it now.

I think you are right and IF she had been obsessed then they'd all have had mythological or classical names, Drabble can't even hold back naming the founder of the school Hamilcar for heaven's sake (Hannibal's father, in Carthage, which Dido founded with her oxhide strips) and on and on.

My grandmother was named Arsinoe which was Greek for water nymph for instance and her mother was not Greek but was interested in the classics. I think you are right, she would have but I don't think her abiding interest, tho she took it in school, is that old.

Dandy, I paused over that crossing over the days with big red X's too. What did THAT mean? 60: What an eerie scene! On the first evening in her apartment, Candida "crossed off all the used-up days (on her new calendar) in red pen. I crossed them out heavily til the paper was dented by the ballpoint. I obliterated them." Shudder. Red? Anger? I suspect so.

I don't know. Is ANGER something we might add to the themes? We may want to put a list of them in the heading. I do. There are a LOT of them.

I like Hats' question: it's obvious that the love was long gone in that marriage, why did she stay with him?

Why do you all think? Does her writing support a passive person forced out? Do you all think she was forced out?

Has she been crossing off three YEARS in obliterating red X's??!!??

Ginny, that is a good question and observation. Now that I am in my middle ages I am drawn to water like an infant its drawn to its mother's breast. Every vacation we plan is around water. I will not be happy, peaceful or content if there is NO water, whether it be a lake, ocean, pond or swimming pool.

I am not a swimmer and have always had fear of water as a child knowing I had cousins who drowned. Since I have entered my late 40's early 50's water is my place of peace. I have decorated my home in nautical, I have an in ground pool and its my place to sit and ponder my past, present, future and yes, my mortality. Its also a gathering place for my kids and grand kids to come and spend endless hours of enjoyment.

Water represents life and rebirth.

As a Catholic, water represents "new Life", through our baptism at infant age we are cleansed and put on a new life through the pouring on of water. In church each Sunday I dip my hand in the blessed holy water and cross myself with the water for absolution. Jesus turned the water into to wine at the marriage in Canna. Without water all will die, humans, plants, animals. Water is the one necessity we need in life. Each Spring we look forward to the rain to bring about new life.

Is Candida ready for a renewing of her life,(hence the journey to Italy),is she sensing her mortality, (hence the realization of the aging of her sophisticated friend Julia). Will her journey to Italy be as successful as Aeneas's was? Will she slay her dragons so to speak as Aeneas did Troy? Will the Cumean Sibyl (prophetess is a person who has directly encountered the numinous or the divine and serves as an intermediary with humanity.) prophesize her destiny? Will she pluck the Golden Bough?

The Golden Bough attempts to define the shared elements of religious belief, ranging from ancient belief systems to relatively modern religions such as Christianity. Its thesis is that old religions were fertility cults that revolved around the worship of, and periodic sacrifice of, a sacred king. This king was the incarnation of a dying and reviving god, a solar deity who underwent a mystic marriage to a goddess of the earth, who died at the harvest, and was reincarnated in the spring. Frazer claims that this legend is central to almost all of the world's mythologies. The germ for Frazer's thesis was the pre-Roman priest-king at the fane of Nemi, who was ritually murdered by his successor:

To see a picture of the Golden Bough go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough

Has Margaret Drabble tricked us and is the third person we have glimpsed a reincarnation of Candida? (hence the ghostly figure on the jacket of the book) hmmmmmmmmmm me thinks me is on to something here. One thing I am certain of is that Candida through her faults, sins and shortcomings she is searching for some sort of absolution. As a Christian Catholic I am seeing her comparisons of the Aeneind and herself with it's Christian connotations.

Will this book end as Virgil's Aeneid, unfinished?

I can't wait to continue on to the next pages.

think part of the theme must be related to the journey. word association with sojourn and journal makes me think of journey. she has made a journey from suffolk to london, from one life to another. she makes references to the far shore, which suggests a destination. both sally and julia have suggested she go on a trip with them. she is attracted to the story of aeneus, which is all about a journey.

Ginny, I google everything, this is the site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneid

Story The Aeneid can be divided into two halves based on the disparate subject matter of Books 1-6 (Aeneas' journey to Italy) and Books 7-12 (the war in Italy). These two halves are commonly regarded as reflecting Virgil's ambition to rival Homer by treating both the wandering theme of the Odyssey and the Iliad's themes of warfare.[1] This is, however, a rough correspondence whose limitations should be borne in mind.[2]

Journey to Italy (books 1-6

Candida has mentioned specifically book 6.

For more pictures and information........ all you google fans type in The Seven Sisters and be amazed at what you will find.,

Constellations which Candida mentions.
Area in London
Great white cliffs

My hunch is that these three in particular have meaning for her. I love the story I posted about the constellations. I can see her using this in reference to what she wants us to see somewhere in the next pages we read. She sure does have us thinking, talking, wondering, researching, googling, and mystified.

"I'll get up a list of all the definitions of foreign phrases we've brought here and put it up over the weekend, that's an excellent suggestion!"

Bellamarie, I loved the story about The Seven Sisters you posted too. I am hoping somehow the story will fit into Candida's life. I am still lost in trying to understand the Aenas story and the Cumae. All of this is new and exciting knowledge for myself. Do you agree that our narrator has to be very intelligent? I don't remember reading about her education.

Thank you for the Golden Bough link.

I don't see Candida as a remorseful person. I don't see Candida as a sad, depressed woman. When I look at the partial face on the cover of the book, I see a woman with a secretive smile on her lips. As I look at her mouth, I think not only do our eyes tell a lot about our personalities so do our mouths. When I am nervous, my lips twitch.

I realize the author might not have much to do with the cover of a book. Still, a cover can not veer far from the story inside the book. Can we gain any further insight into the narrator's character by looking at her mouth, her lips?

Ginny, thank you for the photo of The White Cliffs of Dover, very beautiful. I would like to know why they are called The Seven Sisters too.

Ginny, I think you answered my question about her question. She is just now becoming obsessed with the Aeneid and all the rest.

Hats..."Do you agree that our narrator has to be very intelligent?"

Yes, I do believe this narrator is very intelligent. If indeed it is a reincarnation of Candida or if it is Margaret Drabble herself, I feel that Candida being married to Andrew and helping out with teaching French tells us she has an educated background. Although, it does not tell us of her further education, I can say from having taught in a Catholic grade school and having sons graduate from Catholic high schools the education is very broad and prepares them well for college. Because of the fact she was able to sub teach in the school I would venture to guess she has some kind of college degree.

Her deciding to take the adult course and reading the Aeneid also leads me to believe she already may have had some interest and knowledge of the Aeneid prior to this class. Which ever it is I believe it has stayed with her and has a profound impact on her future. She seems determined to retrace Aeneas' journey. Will her destiny be as his was? We shall see in the next pages.

Ok dashing in to say page 76, Jane drowned herself "on my birthday"...."The fourth or is it the fifth? anniversary of it approaches." So it was at least one year before she left?

As well there was some notion via Sally that perhaps she had had a love affair or was pregnant. More later~!

this person is suffering from acute depression. No matter what she does or thinks it's all self absorbent.. A change in life style such as she describes can do a number in your head so that whatever reality there is left seems to me that she plods along with her days some good, some not so.

I'm recuperating from a number of surgeries and get very upset because I cannot physically do such simple things...it's not my fault.. and I'm coming along well, so I'm told...

But it's depressing.. and I feel that's where our heroine is and why her life is taking the course it is.

We said earlier that the book would be taken from our own pov.. that's my take.

Best to you all...

Colkots.. Collette

I think Candida is depressed as you say Colkot but she is not clinically depressed. She can mix with others, she can go to the gym, she can make decisions. You can do none of those things if you are clinically depressed. In fact you are lucky if you can get out of bed.

Carolyn

I don't think she's depressed at all, I think she's pretty pleased with herself. In fact, so much so that she has chosen a new life style. I think Kiwi is correct that she wouldn't be able to have clinical depression and do all the things she does. She's a traveler, independent, does charitable work, invites friends over. There is a certain amount of self satisfaction in her writings it seems to me. At least until now.

Carolyn.. I agree with you.. Colkots

She thinks some of you have read further than our assigned pages!

She wonders where OLLE is and hopes he will post again; join in this family of posters. I really liked his phrase - "living with an undefined desire."

We do that, indeed, most of us!

And I agree with Collette that our journalist is very self-absorbed but in a journal you are writing strictly for your - what? - pleasure, experiences, reminiscences?? I can't define the reason. What is it?

I kept several in high school and then threw them away some years later as I could not bear the thought that I was that self-centered.

When I was a child I spoke as a child, but when I became an adult I put away childish things. Once I saw through a glass darkly, but then face to face. I don't know why that biblical phrase came to me and I doubt I have it correct.

Obviously our 60-year old journalist has a need to express herself. Why? What is the purpose?

She will read further in the book this weekend.

I kept a journal for three years after my husband died. When I looked at it some years later I did not remember writing any of it. It was dark, it was despairing and I believe it was a cry from my soul. It was a very healing process to be able to put my deepest thoughts down on paper and I believe it was my subconscious self that wrote that journal. I can rememember all my short stories etc that I have ever written but that journal when I re read it some years later it was completely new to me. It did not seem it was written by me. Journalling is very good for those who are unable to express their feelings outwardly and I could not at that time and even if I had wanted to there was nobody that was interested in listening. People do not want to be involved in someone elses grief. Sad but its true. They do not want to be reminded firstly of their own mortality and secondly that one day they will surely feel that grief about the death of someone close to them. I have some friends who have never yet experienced the grief of losing even a parent. I believe so far the journal is an expression of grief. Grief over the failure of marriage and as she thinks the loss of her children. Whether she in fact has lost her children or not is debatable.

Carolyn

And, yes, this first one is strange. I doubt I will get one sympathetic agreement from you.

The most enjoyable scene in the novel has been the luncheon between Candida and Sally Hepburn. Yes, that tension-filled lunch.

I loved it because I let it play through my mind like a movie vs. a whinny diary entry.

I giggled. I laughed. I guffawed. I cackled. I howled. Cried tears of laughter. Almost, well, I won't tell.

I read the scene with the eye of a far-standing reader. Here were two proper English ladies struggling for power, trying to control the situation and vying for the spotlight...in oh so ladylike of a manner.

Peevish. Purdish. Perfectly petty.

Although I am not or ever will be an actress,I played out in my mind being Candida on the live stage. I could be Candida!

It was...well,...a dandy daydream.

Dandy

This actually is a sane comment.

Thank you, everyone, for far more serious links than my personal observations. I am appreciative and in debt to your kindnesses.

Following up on Christine's poem link, I had these thoughts:

What is Drabble telling us by having Jane recite the poem?

Why does Drabble have Candida hear the Jane-recited poem?

I have an "itch of an idea" about Drabble's intention, but I would enjoy your ponderings and musings on this inclusion in the novel. (p.75)

Drabble didn't put this scene in the novel simply to fill a page with writing. There is a reason for this bit.

Dandy

Not much to say tonight.

I love the changing artwork. The discussion is not only intellectually interesting but the site is beautifully done and that enhances my appreciation. Thank you.

Ella Gibbons Post # 186: How clever are you to write in third person! Very funny.

I do have to comment again on Candida's age. She is clearly not 60 yet but she sounds (at least to me) so much older at times. Has her experiences with life so far taken the energy from her? She seems to want to leave her past behind and create a new and more interesting future for herself. The idea of the trip to Italy keeps reappearing.

So at times she appears old old and at times she appears like she is anticipating something exciting that is just around the corner but when she turns the corner, it is not there. Elusive. She feels something is about to happen but she is not ready to grab it yet.That something I think will rejuvenate her.

At least I hope so.

Oh would you look at that beautiful Michelangelo painting from the Sistine Chapel in the heading. As many times as I've looked at the Sistine Chapel paintings (in books) it never dawned on me that that was his intrepretation of the Cumaean Sibyl. His Delphic Sibyl is much prettier.

Ginny ~ I love that British comedy "Keeping Up Apppearances, Hyacinth Bucket is a riot (hahaha)
Don't know anything much about them but I've been told my paternal grandparents were from Yorkshire

I love the water too. If you've ever seen any of my computer art they almost always contain water scenes. I love watching water move and the reflections in still water. I have a great respect for water as I almost drown at the ocean one time. I always wanted to live by the ocean...I may still do that one day.

It's probably too early to say this but, I'd like to see more of Virgil's Aeneid discussed when this book is finished being discussed. Anyone ? (I have the Robert Fagles translation on book and CDs)

Emmabarb, I would love to have the Aeneid discussed after this discussion is finished. That's a great idea. I have my fingers crossed. Along with you, I have to say how beautiful the Michelangelo painting is with the bright colors. Back then, were the colors on his palette so bright and clear? I love the dark color of bronze color of his skin. There are some words almost at the bottom of the painting. What do those words mean? Are the small figures the Sibyls? Then, one looks as though she has another book under her arm.

I am reading the story in the header. It's not a go to sleep and rest peacefully story. This is part of it. Ginny, thank you for putting it in the header.

"Here, according to the poet, was the cave which afforded access to the infernal regions, and here Æneas offered sacrifices to the infernal deities, Proserpine, Hecate, and the Furies. Then a roaring was heard in the earth, the woods on the hilltops were shaken, and the howling of dogs announced the approach of the deities. “Now,” said the Sibyl, “summon up your courage, for you will need it.” She descended into the cave, and Æneas followed. Before the threshold of hell they passed through a group of beings who are enumerated as Griefs and avenging Cares, pale Diseases and melancholy Age, Fear and Hunger that tempt to crime, Toil, Poverty, and Death,—forms horrible to view."

I think our narrator sees herself as having to struggle and fight with each of these beings passed by the deities. Before it's over will she fight with disease and death?

hats ~ I believe the small figures would be called putti or cherubs (I love their chubby little figures). I wouldn't know how bright the colours on Michelangelo's palette would have been back then, but I'm sure the ceiling paintings have been restored and cleaned many times to keep it bright.
I couldn't read the words at the bottom...someone will surely know.

Emmabarb, thank you.

Read about grandmother's name from mythology. My father's middle name was Achilles and my uncle's was Ulysses. Both born around 1905. Must have been a generational thingy.

Thank you, (about putting up the Michelangelo Cumaean Sibyl).

Much to say today about what you've all said, have to say THIS before I forget it. This morning on the TV in the half second it took to wolf down "breakfast" I watched a segment of a program on women and it was talking about "Every woman has a story. And it's amazing (or something, I'm already forgetting the words) to hear each one, what they've lived through and how they came out."

And I think that's a major attraction here, too. Here Candida is (I had to laugh when the Interviewer in Emma Barb's new audio interview....and you can listen, there are no spoilers...but it's VERY instructive to hear Drabble's own voice)....anyway, I had to laugh when the Interviewer started out..."So Candy moves to London..." You could almost FEEL the freeze over the audio waves. Hahahahaah The Interviewer dropped the Candy like a hot rock. As one of us said here, she's not Candy I don't think. I also don't think the Interviewer had read Seven Sisters, that was somewhat obvious and Drabble gave nothing whatsoever away.

Candida MAY be a little bit of Drabble, she admits that. She says she has children and friends but walking about in London and in her own Health Club she sees woman who are lonely. And it seems to her that the city does that TO you, a bit. I thought that was interesting. SOME of Candida IS Drabble, apparently.

It's a good addition to our list of stuff here. A feast for eyes, brain AND ears. A super group and a perfect book to discuss, I'm not sure Drabble herself (WHO DID NOT EXPLAIN ONE DARN THING, doggone it) knows what she's said. We'll find out!

More....I've printed out your posts again, I love them.

I don't think anybody has addressed Page 39:

"Is to be fat to be trustworthy? Somebody in classical antiquity thought so—was it Julius Caesar? …. Anyway, I don’t agree with Julius Caesar. I think fat people tend to be very manipulative."

I think that's an interesting sequence of thought. "FAT people" as if they were a different planet of people, all FAT people are manipulative. She sure does see things from a limited perspective.

Do you make judgments on the size of the person you're looking at? Fat and jolly? Here's the original quote, she did everything but give chapter and verse: Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, Act 1, Scene 2 :

CAESAR:

Let me have men about me that are fat;
Sleek-headed men and such as sleep o' nights:
Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look;
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.

I am really struck this morning by her wondering if the bird through the glass on page 62 is an "omen." She's looking for omens and Sibyls concerning the most important thing in her life:

I wondered if it was an omen...I had been observing through a flaw in the glass of the windowpane….I found I could make the bird's shape change at will…

I had power over the bird. It shifts shape at my command.

The flaw in the glass is always there. Sometimes I sit and stare through it for what seems like hours, making the outer world shift, marginally, at my will….There aren't so many birds in London…I would like to visit the birdless lake of Avernus. Where no birds sing.

Why am I so certain that something exciting will happen to me in London? How can it, at my age? And what will it be?

That's pretty powerful there, to me, is it to anybody else? It's wistful, it's pitiful, it's hopeful and once again in tune with the really important desires of the character the lake of ancient death, Lake Avernus, rears its head. A lake so virulent that if birds flew over it (in antiquity, they don't seem to have a problem now) the fumes etc., kill them. A birdless Lake of Death: the entrance to the Underworld, with all of the concomitant features Hats noticed, and more besides.

You can go IN with the help of the Sibyl and the Golden Bough but otherwise you can't get out, you're dead.

I noticed a pattern yesterday, before I gave up counting them, of WHEN Lake Avernus appears and it's almost always in connection with her future hopes and plans. It represents death, and by our own modern understandings, by drowning. I want to follow THAT theory a while in next week's reading. It may not pan out but it's a new theory (among many). I have not read next week's yet, need to keep my mind clear for each part.

What, here in the last two days, would you like to say about the first section's events or thoughts in the book?

More later on, on your comments, they are delicious.

I began the last pages up to p. 95 reading the same old, same old negative Candida diary writings: "...I am not needed..." and "I'm not very noticeable." and "I am more a social case than a social worker." yada yada yada

But!

In the last paragraph of the week Candida has something good to say about herself.

She begin with a self-criticism, "...yet entirely respectable. I can see us both, sitting on our little terrace overlooking the sea. I'd give her a touch of class, which is what she knows she needs."

Ta Da! She knows she has value.

That's a nice way to end this week's readings.

Dandy

While pushing the vacuum or scrubbing out a stubborn spot this weekend, imagine these scenes:

...you at a Happy Hour in Frog and Firkin...would you hide in a corner or order a pint?

...having Mrs. Jerrold as a friend...would you visit a museum or go clothes/accessories shopping?

...attracting the attention of Mr. Wormald...shudder

...spending an evening with Julia

...traveling to Naples with Candida, Sally Hepburn, and Julia Jordan..."God preserve me."

Dandy

Oh, my, I must review these 95 pages again. My thought this morning is that our journalist lacks any thing connected to or remotely thought of as love in her life. Certainly at one period in her life she knew love????

We need love in some manner or other, don't we? If only in memories? Sweet, sweet love. Love of youth, love of romance in youth, love of babies - my memories are so precious.

But I have love today also, I would die without it I think.

page 12 on the prisoner in Wormwood:(I am still a bit preoccupied with this relationship) "The man in Wormwood makes few demands on me. He is safely locked up, and he can't get out. That's the kind of friendship one can control, on one's own terms. A satisfactorily uneven relationship, in which I wield the power. I wield the power because at least I am free to come and to go."

And how very different this is from her relationship with her former husband. Who wielded the power there? What was their relationship like? At one point she does move out of the bedroom. That was before the affair commenced?

And then there is Sally who is a virgin and loves pornography. Is the relationship between Sally and her porn also "satisfactorily uneven"? She wields the power. She looks when she wants, gets aroused (I assume) but is in control.

Why is Sally's overt sexuality so disturbing to Candida? How sexual is Candida?

Candida is living in a cocoon, but I believe she knows that. Knowing is the first step. Will she ever transform herself into the butterfly?

I feel silly to have thought of the innocent cherubs in the painting by Michelangelo as being the Sibyls. The Sibyls are beings no one would relate to as innocent or childlike.

As I continue to read the chapters over, I see more of the narrator's personality described in her journal. She is more forthcoming than I first thought. One daughter, Martha, continues to live with Andrew and Anthea. The narrator writes about what happens in their household. "It is all Darling This and Darling That and Dear Heart the Other." She doesn't like such sweetie pie words. Then, what surprised me is the guilt she writes about in the journal. "Maybe he always wanted what I never gave, and could never have given. Maybe it is from my shortcomings that all these rank weeds grew."

This is too much guilt for one person to carry. If I felt that guilty it would weigh me down. I agree with Carolyn she isn't clinically depressed. If she truly feels this much guilt, what keeps her going? Is it her love of Virgil and literary gods and goddesses? Perhaps, this keeps her mind occupied, keeps her from thinking about past regrets, keeps her from drowning.

More and more I am appreciating Bellamarie's theme of "water."

Ginny, thank you for checking the interview for spoilers. I really don't want to know the ending. So, I probably had my guard up to far. Now, I can listen. Thank you again, Emmabarb.

I also remember a few years ago a painting being restored. Was it the Sistine Chapel? Tons of work and delicate work went into getting the painting restored and cleaned of dirt. What people had been looking at in no way came close to the true colors of the paint. Emmabarb, thank you for the reminder.

I keep thinking of her as reinventing herself. I think she has not liked herself for so many years.. Now she thinks she can reinvent what she wants to be.. But it is proving harder than she imagined. She also seems to believe that somehow Julia can help her do this. Julia is and has been a good friend..But she is cautious even with her. This is a tentative woman who takes a baby step at a time. She keeps referring to her purse being stolen, but no details and yet she tantalizes us with it is or was her fault.. I am not sure I like Candida, but I am beginning to think she is saying things quite relevant to all of us.

Remember when Julia danced with Andrew at the ball and got his measure at once. Our narrator says Julia was always sexually active - takes one to know one?

While telling us of Jane Richards' death Candida writes: Poor Jane. She was quite a bright little thing. She was in my class in 3C when Andrew bullied me into teaching French Conversation, that year when Mlle Fournier went back to France in something of a hurry

Had Andrew had an affair with the French Mistress?

On the very next page we have There had been talk of a love affair that went wrong, but there is always talk of a love affair that went wrong. Once Sally tried to hint that Jane might have thought she was pregnant, but I didn't let her enlarge on this

Candida doesn't want to think about that.- it might be true - Andrew might be responsible?

Earlier she writes Possibly Andrew and Anthea had been carrying on with one another for some time before the 'accidental death'...

and again... My man in Wormwood Scrubs drowned his victim. He says he didn't mean to but I suspect he did. I know the very place. Anthea's daughter drowned herself. I know the very place. I wade in, but only up to my knees

I'm sure our narrator knows more about Jane's death than she is telling. She won't allow Sally to conjecture about a possible love affair. Her comment 'I wade in, but only up to my knees' suggests that Candida is afraid of what she might discover or what might be revealed if she lets herself think about what really happened. Perhaps the 'accidental death' verdict was not the true one.

The man in Wormwood Scrubs raped and then drowned his victim. Did Andrew rape the girl Jane? Or did Jane find her mother and Andrew together? Was the shock too much for her?

I think Candida knows much more than she is telling about Andrew's extra marital activities and about Jane's death as well.

Ifs and buts I guess...

"I watch that clock for half the night. Exsomnis noctesque diesque, as Virgil put it."

I haven't mentioned which friend I like the best so far. I like Anais. She's so colorful. I try to imagine the coat with all of the colors. I love the hat. "She was also wearing a scarlet hat with a silver tassel, perched on top of her thick black curls." She wears "astonishing shoes." I love it! I think we become more daring in what we wear as we grow older. That is the case with me. I will take more chances with color, etc. Since I'm old, no one really cares. So, right now I'm into barrettes. I love wild hair barrettes. At this stage, it's the last chance to have fun. Why not try a new style? That's why I like Anais. She seems free of the little voice in our head saying, "what will people say?"

I had to go shopping. I took Seven Sisters with me. I see another theme, power and control. When the narrator sits in her flat, she watches this bird. She likes the idea that there is a flaw in the window. It allows her to manipulate the shape of the bird.

"I had power over the bird. It shifted shape at my command. The flaw in the the glass is always there. Sometimes I sit and stare through it for what seems like hours, making the outer world shift, marginally, at my will."

Is she thinking "if I can change the shape of the bird at will can I change the shape of my life?"

Carolyn

Think all of us like to control our lives, when we cannot that's when things become difficult and we have to live each day at a time. Right now, I am unable to plan more than 24 hours ahead and hope that things will come to pass. It seems to me that our heroine is caught in that time warp until......!

Colkots

I’m so sorry to have let your down and not got the time to write to you, but I haven’t forgot you or Candida, and I read your witty comments very carefully. Maybe it’s because those that I have learn to read this particularly book more thoroughly than usual. Yes, to that extent that I’ve bought a copy if Virgil’s Aeneid. And that’s an absolutely different kind of reading, but (I think) necessary to know for follow and look into Drabble’s story . As Dandy said: “I have an "itch of an idea" about Dribble’s intention, but I would enjoy your ponderings and musings on this inclusion in the novel.”

And that “itch” (sometimes almost revealed but so vague and misty so it slips out of my hands/head) comes over me to – and then it’s gone and I must follow new tracks. It’s like a detective story, a story to detect who you are and what’s forming your life and yourself. I have started rereading the book from the beginning again!

See your all!

Olle

I am again sorry for my confusion. I think Ginny mentioned the Sibyl as the prophetess. It is hard for me to keep it all straight.

I'm with Hats as I like Anais too. She is such a colourful character, not only in her dress. She seems to know exactly who she is although I do sense some mystery about her as well. Actually I think there is some mystery attached to all of the characters.I wonder how these will be resolved. Will we learn more or is Drabble just dangling carrots before our eyes ( maybe they're more like 'red herrings'). Tantalising.

There is a lot about power and control but conversely there is also plenty about fate or destiny, of being unable to change whatever is meted out by the gods, of having no control over events.

Candida has twice mentioned the perfume 'Evening in Paris' which brought back memories for me. A long, long time ago it was very popular here. An old aunt of mine gave me some for Christmas when I was about 14 or so. My parents didn't approve and said it was 'too old' for me which it probably was. I remember it so well - not only the perfume itself but the glorious rich blue colour of the bottle. All the perfumes of old Araby couldn't compare.

As Olle points out this story is something like a detective yarn in that Drabble just gives us hints of what has happened and so far leaves it to the reader to make what they will of it. Yet many aspects ring true and lead us to assess our own lives by drawing general parallels with Seven Sisters. Interesting.

Olle, that is a marvelous way to describe trying to find the meaning of Candida's thoughts: so vague and misty that it slips away.

Like a dream slipping away upon waking from a foggy sleep.

Dandy, the luncheon is not necessarily my favorite part, but I like the way you describe it. I also try to picture a book's events as they would play in a movie scene. It used to happen automatically in my younger years, but now I have to make more of an effort. In this second reading things are popping up all over that slipped by unnoticed the first time.

The Andrew character is clear and I can see him in his office with a family, or addressing a group at a festival on the school grounds. When he made the cruel remark at dinner (in that offhand little way) he wanted to cut his wife to the quick, that is for sure, but I see him saying it with a bland and pleasant expression rather than a grim one.

He must have known he was causing their guests discomfort. Candida says he is a good man but he is not a considerate one. All his striving and efforts on behalf of the school and charity sounds like ambition passing as goodness. The French teacher hurrying back to France seemed more than a little suspicious too.

Picturing Sally is trickier, as Candida has been meaner in her description and made her sound gross and unappealing.

To answer an earlier question- I think you asked it- dandylion wine is real. My husband used to make blackberry and cranberry wines, but one year the yard bloomed almost solid yellow with dandelions and what else could we do?

We had picker's cramps as it takes about a million blossoms to make a batch of nice clear, golden wine.

Patricia Routledge is the actress who played amateur detective, Hetty Winthrop, a few years ago as well as Hyacinth.

Lizabeth...I think you are right in guessing that Candida's life experiences- her stifling marriage and not being paid and appreciated- have drained much from her. She describes herself as drab and colorless, but that does not mean other people see her that way. Surely we will learn more about this as we go on.

Gumtree, I find your thoughts very interesting about fate and what the gods have meted out. Like someone else wrote, there are so many layers to this story or "many stories." Did Ginny say it?

I agree with you Goldensun about Andrew's remark. I literally flinched after reading what he said over dinner in a falsely kind way. I think any woman would have been hurt by his remark.

Oh your posts are bringing so many things to light. And Olle is inspiring me to seek a used copy of the Aeneid

Gumtree, your comment about Julia getting Andrew's measure after dancing with him -- was he making passes to all the women even back then? And I think you're right -- Candida knows more about Jane's death than she is saying.

Hats, I love it -- you think we become more daring in our dress as we become older? Yes. Look at all the Red Hats.

I think Candida has always been the "good" daughter, student, wife -- always behaving as others have dictated. Does she then live a bit vicariously through her friends -- with Sally and her porn, with wild flamboyant juicy Julia (who seems to be drying up a bit), with colorful Anais. She has only good things to say about Anais.Has her new freedom brought new perspectives?

One thing our heroine is NOT is pathetic, evil or a poor soul. So many parallels here, and I could not help comparing Candida with Judi Dench, another journal-writing character, seen in a film the other night.

"Sojourn" keeps returning. I'm ready to learn more about the sojourns that are coming up -- Candida's and ours.

I suspect as well that Andrew was always a philanderer.. But with the comments on Jane, I went back and reread and I see where you are all coming from. Yes, she does seem to know more about the death than she is telling. Or at least think she does. More and more I begin to wondor how much of the journal is real and how much is a dream world.

Woweee. I got up this morning at 4 am, read straight thru to The Italian Journey, and have so much to say next week I doubt I'll get it said. NOW is the time for stuff in the heading, I have no idea what half of it means, but YOU'LL know!

I know you'll know. I'll ba back after lunch with more, how you all dazzle!

I caught her, too! In this next section~!!! Yes I did!!!! I can't wait to show you (and I may be wrong) but tomorrow's coming with the speed of a bullet: do you have any last thoughts today on this section? Can't wait to hear tomorrow what you think!!

I went to see Pirates of the Caribbean yesterday with my son and daughter in law and was delighted to see another old Greek goddess pop up: Calypso. Yes indeed!

They're EVERYWHERE!

I found another Drabble in the sound recordings stack yesterday called "The Waterfall" I have listened to the first cassette yesterday afternoon and the word "drowning" occurs several times so far. In this case the word is used to describe how the main character is drowning because of the problems she has in her life. The characterisation is in great depth. I can't help thinking that Drabble is describing her own feelings and events in her life in both this book and in Seven sisters. Interesting!!!

Carolyn

Maggie--And I've read that the quote about not wanting in a club that would have him originated with Mark Twain. An American author.

Speaking of American influences, I noticed that not only her thoughts but also her words echo those of Henry David Thoreau when she says (in simple, short sentences, as if displaying economy even in her diction) that people really need only a few things to get by in life--that, in fact, things are a burden. She then describes having only a few humble possessions in her new flat.

ssthor--I completely agree with your description of Candida's circumstances, still common among women in many countries. However, she does tell us that not only did she select an "adventurous" neighborhood but that she selected an unusually adventurous neighborhood.

The life that failed her has been one of decorum and even pretension. She says she doesn't know why she and her husband had to appear better off than they actually were, but isn't this need to present a certain gentility common in academic communities?

More than just her material possessions were a pretense. Her marriage and her friendships in Suffolk were also false. Even her loved and unformed lttle girls turned out to be disloyal disappointments. Drabble has put her finger on the pulse of many of the world's women. Even in that at times she doesn't fully understand what was to her happening through the years.

With a change of details, this book could've been written in the sixties. It's a feminist work--so far!--warning women against getting into a situation where they are living for the convenience of others. And that the most agreeable and apparently honorable man may turn out to be "self-satisfied" and lacking integrity.

But we know from remarks here that Candida may herself have had some failures--something the feminists seldom got around to dealing with.

We'll see. Of, course, some of you probably have seen already. though I gather there may be doubts even at the end.

I enjoy how in the earliest description of Andrew, the character plays with the different meanings of "good." She makes clear that Andrew is good at appearing to be good. So when she concludes that he s "good, good, good." she probably means he's good at acquiring trust--hers and that of others, including his own daughters'. A slick, academic con-artist.

I can really feel Candida Wilton's excitement about this Italian Journey. It's amazing how Margaret Drabble is so able to make the reader feel a part of this adventure.

Emmabarb, I listened to the Margaret Drabble interview. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you.

GINNY, I've made it, at last.
When this book was first discused in B&L I had a time conflict. But I promised I would be here the second time around. Sorry to be late.

Let me take this great opportunity to mention that, beginning in January 2005, we discussed'Edith Hamilton's Mythology : Timeless Tales of Gods and Heroes right here in B&L. Edith Hamilton is still one of the best and most concise sources on classical mythology.

It took me three evenings to catch up to all the insightful posts. As best I could see, there has been no translation>.

As a huge fan of Margaret Drabble from way back (and coincidentally also of Margaret Atwood), I still have all of Drabble's early books, including Summer Birdcage; The Garrick Year; Jerusalem the Golden; The Waterfall; The Needle's Eye; The Realms of Gold.

Something changed, I felt, with the 1977 novel The Ice Age. Neither of the volumes of her trilogy, written two years apart each, The Radiant Way; A Natural Curiosity; The Gates of Ivory (1987-, 89, 91), appealed to me for reasons I cannot now remember. Of course I read part of The Seven Sisters when it came out but faltered halfway through. This is a new beginning.

Alas, having caught up with your posts does not mean that I am at the proper spot in the book, and on the same page with you. But I will be, just as soon as I can.

I have not yet had the time to carefully digest the content of the links in the header. So, in case the following is already known, forgive me for being repetitive.

Margaret Drabble, known to her friends as Maggie, was born in Sheffield, Yorkshire in 1939. She has told at least one interviewer and friend, the American author David Plante who has lived in London for several decades, that despite her knowledge of London she is like "a foreigner" in London.

She was married from 1960 to 1975 to the actor Clive Swift, best known to us perhaps as Hyacinth's hen-pecked Husband Richard in "Keeping Up Appearances". Before she turned to writing, she was involved in the theater herself and at one time the understudy for Vanessa Redgrave. Drabble has been married to biographer Michael Holroyd since the early eightees. They live in London and Somerset.

Welcome Traude! We are very glad to see you here. I think we have another person catching up to join us as well. Thank you for reading all of the posts, that's what it's all about!

Yes I remember your great discussion of Edith Hamilton, is her book online? I can put it in the heading if so. Also thank you for the biography of Drabble, would you know her connection to classicism? I seem to vaguely remember there IS one?

As a fan you can tell us what she's saying!!! I know we'll crack the code this time, welcome!

I've come in to say I've read everybody's posts again, printed out. We've getting up a skeleton sort of glossary of terms, etc., and we'll fill them in as we go, so when it appears if there is something missing, holler! Good idea, Hats.

But I specifically came IN to say I must congratulate you all on how brilliantly you're talking TO each other, it's amazing. I just noticed it!!! THAT was the goal, along of course with discussing the book, but that was my goal this time, and you've done it. We're a perfect circle! I had this new idea but have scrapped it, why fool with perfection, let's continue our circle of conversations, it's great!

Congratters! The discussion is already a success even if I don't know the answer to Dandy's Dandy Question du Jour! (Do YOU?)

What is Drabble telling us by having Jane recite the poem? (page 75: the Hare and the Frogs?)

I don't know, but I agree it's there for a reason. She's created such a character we can relate to in one way or another we forget she's writing a novel. Maybe she's saying Jane should not have been so timid and killed herself, there were people worse off? or? OR? Who are the people worse off? OR why does she keep wading in to her knees?

I don't KNOW!!

Why, Everybody?

That's a GOOD one!

(Have you all noticed how many times Candida's friends seem to be eating with her?)

EmmaBarb and Hats, we've had several requests to read the Aeneid, the only one left of the big three of antiquity but nobody seems to feel up to to leading it!

Hats, I thought this was brilliant from the heading, it said : Before the threshold of hell they passed through a group of beings who are enumerated as Griefs and avenging Cares, pale Diseases and melancholy Age, Fear and Hunger that lead to crime, Toil, Poverty, and Death--- forms horrible to view.

And then you said, "I think our narrator sees herself as having to struggle and fight with each of these beings passed by the deities. Before it's over will she fight with disease and death?" I don't know, but I'm going to watch for it!

Love that! I was not making a very good connection and there it is.

more....

Kidsal, you, too, with the family relations with Achilles and Ulysses, mythological names. Are there any Greeks in your own background? Those are very well thought of names even today.

Olle, I am glad to see you back and reading the Aeneid, yet!! You and Dandy are going to have to tell us that itch before we all get it! I really liked your "detective story" image, it's that, all right!

I loved Gum's and Goldensun's analysis of Andrew and how you all see him, it might help to know the British (Colkot can help us out here) use words like disgusting more than we would, but I still think he was a bounder! Hahahaa

Colkot, I am appreciating the perspective you bring here!!

Carolyn, good point on the bird, do YOU think she can change the shape of her life? Good point. Do any of you think she can?

Stephanie, are you still on the road? Where are you now? The miracle of the internet!

I hope Christine has a safe trip back.

Do most of us think that she knows more about Jane's death than she's saying? (Boy those ARE a lot of hints, sort of ladylike hints, we know she does not gossip.... Andrew must have been a regular Marquis de Sade or something?) OR…. OR??????? Remember who is writing this!

Gum, when your parents said that Evening in Paris was "too old" for you, what did they mean? My mother said the same thing to me about a sweet lavender dress. She said that was an "old" color, and here I was blonde, and it looked gorgeous. How can a perfume be too old? Heavy?

I've never smelled it.

Goldensun! Hetty Wainthropp, the very one. And now we see, thanks to Traude, that "RICHard" was married to Drabble!!!! and that's a shocker, but that actor was quite famous for his Shakespearean work, believe it or not.

Pedln's remark about Candida always having been the "good" daughter, wife, etc., reminds me about her recurring remarks on being a "lady," and what that means. If you hear her voice you can hear it, too.

Barbara, I loved where you showed how the prose gets short and uses simple sentences "as if displaying economy even in her diction." NOTHING will get past us, I feel it!

Ella your glosses are TOO funny. I don't know about love, where do you all think she feels it? You also just said something I think is very important about who she is writing that journal for.

I hope I have not left anybody out, what wonderful thoughts as they become all of ours, sort of a blend, it's magic. I am quite happy to co opt your great ideas! Ahahaa But as Hats says, here we are, poised….POISED on the brink of …doing something bold? And different?

Tomorrow we'll hit a new high! SHOULD she grasp the Golden Bough? I loved BellaMarie's explanation of what that became, Frazer, Christian applications (there's some of that also in the area she's going to actually, see below) but Vergil seems to have invented it first in the Aeneid.

By the way, there IS a Vergilian Society. They do tours to points of interest to those interested in Vergil: See: Vergilian Society Tours:

From Rome we travel on our first day to Terracina, Sperlonga, and Cumae, where the Villa Vergiliana serves as our base. From here sites include Lakes Lucrinus and Avernus, the scene of Aeneas' descent in Vergil and of Christ's resurrection in medieval legend, with its nearby Pseudo-Sibyl's grotto and Apollo's "temple," Cumae's forum, and acropolis with its Sibyl's grotto described by Vergil. Numerous other sites to be visited include Pozzuoli, where St. Paul introduced Christianity to Italy, The Solfatara with their boiling lava and fumeroles, Paestum, where two overnights in a hotel enable us to see newly excavated Velia also. Once back in the Villa we again explore the Phlegraean Fields visiting Bacoli's Piscina Mirabilis, Ancient Baiae and its museum, Naples and its museum, Vergil's tomb, Herculaneum, Oplontis, the island of Capri, Beneventum, Caserta, and more. We will provide a list of suggested readings relevant to the sites to participants in advance of the program and, in addition to on-site reports, opportunity will be offered for participants to attend some readings or lectures in the afternoons or evenings.

They're quite reasonable, too. I feel hope surging up and excitement, what WILL you say tomorrow, WILL she grab the Golden Bough? I can't WAIT to hear you on this next section and of course you can reflect on anything else you'd like up to An Italian Journey, too, tomorrow.

I'll leave you with this, tho till the morning: Page 94:

And the Underworld, I said, that's just near Naples. Lake Avernus, the Burning Fields, the Sibyl's Cave. Good Lord, said Julia, are those real places? They certainly are, said I. Well , let's go and see them for ourselves, said Julia. I might be able to work them into the plot. OK, said I.

!!!!

OK said I? hahahahaaaaaaaaa OK then!! Just in case you haven't seen the Burning Fields, the Campi Flegrei, or a part of it:

Here is Solfatara! Solfatara is located in the Campi Flegrei, the Phlegrean Fields of Italy, not far from Cumae in the town of Pozzuoli (also famous for being Sophia Loren's birthplace), near where Aeneas is thought to have landed in Italy.

Campi Flegrei is a large 13-km-wide caldera on the outskirts of Naples that contains "numerous phreatic tuff rings and pyroclastic cones. .." . Solfatara is one of the craters in this area, and another, filled with water, is Lake Avernus, the entrance to the Underworld where Aeneas entered. Solfatara was considered by the ancients to be the abode of Vulcan, the god of Fire, and some say another entrance to Hell.

If you visit it today it will make a believer out of you. On a cold day in March 2006 when snow was on Vesuvius and on the ground, it is steaming hot!

The ground is sulphurous, and the smell is like fire and brimstone

One of these next shots of this area can be seen on the National Geographic Volcanoes DVD: this is considered a potentially very dangerous area, see next post!

It's exactly what you might think the entrance to Hell might look like, boiling, hot and pretty sulfurous.

In some of these photos you can see the yellow of the sulfur on top of the ground. You can also see the jackets people are wearing because it's cold everywhere else

The main crater is a HUGE area, bigger than a football field and looks like a moonscape.

In places the ground actually boils, and bubbles

**This is the image on the National Geographic DVD on Volcanoes, they zero in on the boiling mud, it's unreal.** Those are not little ripples or bumps on the water, they're bursting boilingi bubbles.

It fits perfectly the idea of Hell, the very ground is very hot

and it looks like something very dire is happing down below.

It was once on the Grand Tour of the aristocrats of Europe, and the surrounds are now a park!!! With a nice refreshment stand and places for children to play and camp grounds, it's like Disney World till you walk out TO it, and a wonderfully historic area including the incredible town of Baia, and other wonders. Read More about it

So what do you think? Should Candida take us with her? Let's go!! See you all tomorrow!

My oh my, I left on Friday afternoon to spend a two day getaway with my loving husband at a resort near the bay and look what you all have been up to. We spent our days at Marblehead, exploring the inside of the famous lighthouse that Thomas Kinkead (my favorite painter) has painted. I could not resist bringing my book along since Candida had me enthralled at the thought of her and Julia traveling to Italy. I have to tell you that at times I tried to put my little excursion in the thoughts of Candida going to Lake Avernus. We saw splendid sun sets, sail boats aimlessly sailing along the water and the waves coming in and capsizing on the rocks. We climbed the 77 stairs inside the lighthouse and when we reached the top and looked out to one angle I imagined the Seven Sisters white cliffs, yet from another angle I could see nothing but water as far as my eyes could see and the skies were of puffy white clouds I have always imagined what Heaven would be like. With the sun glistening on the water I could not help but wonder if the sun was shining when Jane walked into the pond and drowned herself.

Not that this book filled my entire thoughts while gone, I could not help but try to feel what it would be like to travel the places Candida described to Julia.( I am of Italian descent and have always dreamed of touring Italy) I loved how Julia asked if indeed these places were real. It spiked an excitement in me because I do believe its the first glimpse of exhilaration I felt Candida express up to this point. But, like my feelings sitting and swinging at the end of the day, watching the sun going down, holding hands with my hubby, listening to the waves hitting the shore and seeing couples walk the stony trail to the gazebo at the end of the trail a bitter sweetness engulfed me. Just knowing we spent these two days in complete oneness, happiness and renewed our togetherness after months of planning and preparing for our last son's marriage and it finally being here and gone we now sat just being. Knowing it was our last night and we will return and begin the day to day rat race on Monday was a bit sad yet it is what we do and who we are and in that is an extreme amount of happiness and pleasure.

I feel like if and when Candida does go to Italy she will possibly find her peace and happiness, yet will it mean the end of her? I truly can not see this character ending in happiness in life, I don't see the three daughters and her re uniting. I don't see her returning to London to continue living a nonliving life once she travels to Italy. Unlike me knowing when I return to my home and my life its what and who I am, I can't help but feel Candida has nothing to return to because she left everything of who she is behind in Suffolk. I don't see her returning.

Ginny those are amazing pics and I would have to say that if we could envision hell that would be a very close image of what it would look like. You all posted so many great insights while I was gone. I must say I agree Candida has been a bit depressed but unlike my first post where I felt she could have some sort of mental disorder, after listening to Margaret Drabble's interview I only see it as a loneliness and solitude from being hurt. Yes, I think she suffers from bouts of depression but like one of the posts said, and forgive me for not taking the time to properly quote, she has made the effort to take a class, go to a health club, go out with friends and visit the man in prison, and although you could do all of those things and still be clinically depressed it is highly unlikely.

I have begun our next pages and already am liking where this is going. Can't wait for tomorrow to come. Until then I shall go soak my aching body from my bravery of playing tennis. I'm not sure if my husband and I were trying to recapture some of our youth or were just plain over taxing our bodies these past two days, but ohhhh does my body feel it now! Calgon take me away.....

Ginny: "Dandy's Dandy Question du Jour! (Do YOU?)

What is Drabble telling us by having Jane recite the poem? (page 75: the Hare and the Frogs?)"

I think Candida should see that she is the hare. The hare survives.

I wish young Jane could have been the hare too.

gumtree -- Your ponderings and musings on the possibilities of Andrew's having a relationship with Mlle Fournier and of his raping Jane made sense to me, especially when you tied it in with Candida's comment, "I wade in, but only up to my knees."

Who could really, really want to know for sure, for sure? What a heartache that would be! Not me. Not for dandy me. I would go out and have a cup of tea instead.

Shivery good, gumtree. Kudos. You connected the dots when I didn't even see them.

Shivery good writing by Drabble!

Dandy with just my $0.02 opinion

We have an area in Rotorua with geysers, boiling mud etc. It stinks the whole city out. I had to go there on business once and had to keep my hotel windows firmly shut all the time. As I have a sulfur allergy I felt nauseated every time I left the hotel to go to my meetings.

Carolyn

GINNY, I don't know whether Hamilton's Mythology is available on line. I'm sure you will find that much more easily than I could. Our discussiion of the book is accessible in the B&L Archives.

Hello, BELLAMARIE, I gathered from your name that you are of Italian descent. I'm so glad to meet you and other new faces. I love Italy with all my heart; I studied and lived there many moons ago in trying times, in another life, or so it seems. And I visited often when my old <>padrone di casa = landladies were still living.

I believe it was you who wondered whether Drabble had advanced education. She did.
Like her sister, A.S. Byatt, (born in 1936), Drabble went to the Mount in York, a Quaker boarding school. Then she attended Newnham College, Cambridge. She read English and was awarded 'a starred double first', a grading that indicates exceptionally high scores. She is also known as Lady Holroyd, CBE (Companionm of the British Empire).

GINNY, in addition to seventeen novels, Drabble has a number of nonfiction works to her credit:
among them a biographyof Arnold Bennett; Angus Wilson A Biography; the Genius of Thomas Hardy.

She was the editor of both the 5th edition (1995) and the sixth edition (2000) of the Oxford Companion to English Literature.

I am not quite ready to answer your latest questions, but I believe Drabble is cagey with her readers, she is holding back and not telling all she knows.

Incidentally, Drabble is not close to her sister. Her first book, A Summer Birdcage, deals with two inimical sisters and was widely held to be "rather close to reality".

I love your questions and the intellectual stimulation of this discussion. We are indebted to you.

Ginny, thank you for the wonderful pictures. I will look more closely in the morning. Every picture and link is a help for this is new territory I have never travelled. I don't remember using the word "poised," Ginny. I don't want to take the credit for something not posted by me.

Olle and Bellemarie, so glad to have you back again.

Now, I need to go back and read the posts and really look at the pictures.

Are we including reading "Italian Journey" in this week ? (oh dear my book is downstairs)

Wouldn't it be fun to have some feedback from Margaret Drabble on all our comments. I think I'm reading more into her book than she intended. "Seven Sisters: Book II"

(p.99) Pozzuoli - Sophia Loren's birthplace. Was it so awful?
(p.102) I've always referred to "still life" paintings...not "still lives paintings". This is new to me.
(p.112) ? what's a pot of rillettes please.
(p.114) What were the noises on the squeeky tape Mrs. Jerrold gave Candida ?

(p.120)I cannot find pps. 490-94 in the Sixth Book of Aeneid
"they rais'd a feeble cry,
with trembling notes;
But the weak voice deceived
their gasping throats"

The London Lighthouse for AIDS people. Is this indeed a real place ?
And what are the "Phlegraean Fields" ?
Nach Cuma, Nach Cuma (onwards and upwards)!

Ginny ~ Thanks for the link to the real Vergilian Society tours. That would be something to see...if only...
Also the photo of the Burning Fields and Campi Flegrei. It really does look like what one would think the entrance to hell might look like. I had no idea they were actual places. I don't think I want to go there.

Before these words, the writer writes "Onwards, stranger, onwards and upwards." Are the English words a translation of the words in bold????

Then, there is another phrase. Pars tollere vocem exiguam: inceptus clamor frustratur hiantis. (121)

(Creusa, O Creusa) (135)

Carthaginem esse delendam (154)

Emmabarb, I think we are reading up to The Italian Journey. Then, in Week III, June 17th, we start on The Italian Journey which I'm dying to start reading. Love your post. I wanted to know about the Lighthouse too.

Look up in the header for the dates.

If there is a Hell on earth, this is it! What a horrible, dreary place. It's like another planet. I am glad you showed the guys in the jackets. What a contrast between cold and hot. This place would convert an ole sinner like me immediately. It's awful!

I didn't understand the words in this statement. "Campi Flegrei is a large 13-km-wide caldera on the outskirts of Naples that contains "numerous phreatic tuff rings and pyroclastic cones. .." .

Are those like the hard forms you find growing in caves????

Bellamarie, I love Thomas Kinkade's paintings. I have been wanting to read the Cape Light series of novels. I'm glad you enjoyed time with your husband.

"It spiked an excitement in me because I do believe its the first glimpse of exhilaration I felt Candida express up to this point."

I feel the same way. It's amazing how Margaret Drabble made this woman's life take a sudden change right before our eyes. There are so many themes in this novel. I am beginning to see " risk taking" as another one. I am afraid to say the theme is also one of hope because I don't know the ending yet. I definitely, like you, don't see a kissy, cuddly ending for Candida and her family.

Traude, you have read so many of Drabble's novels. Are her novels ever sentimental with expected formulaic endings? Do her endings usually give you a jolt or are you left not understanding what in the world happened at the end, like an Alfred Hitchcock ending?

No Greeks in the family. You can still buy Evening in Paris (in a blue bottle). Never wore it but loved the blue bottle!!

Kidsal, I remember that blue bottle. It made you think of evening time. I don't remember the fragrance.

Whoop, a great beginning, welcome back, BellaMarie, typing between lightning bolts, need to pull out the satelilte plug. You all go on ahead and I'll be back when I can reattach the computer!! (Candida would say this is an omen!!!!)

EmmaBarb asks: (p.114) What were the noises on the squeaky tape Mrs. Jerrold gave Candida ?

I had the same question. Candida's musings are particularly telling:

"Is it a recording of the death of Jane Richards in the Lady Pond?"

and further on the same page:

"Perhaps she has lent me a recording of the squeaking souls of the dead in the Underworld."

Then I looked at the glosser (is that what it is called?) and it reads: She does not understand the messages. Messages?

And again the references to water: She hears "a sort of watery wailing...a watery bubbling and gushing..."

There is so much there to be interpreted. But Candida never (at least up to page 163) asks Mrs Jerrold about the tapes, Why?

The tape is presented to Candida on page 107. Mrs Jerrold says Candida will enjoy it, that it is a surprise. That doesn't sound at all like what Candida heard. It is a tape. Perhaps Candida was playing it at the wrong speed?

Lizabeth, thanks for the page number. I hope it's the hardback.

Me three, Lizabeth! Mystery abounds in this section along with a rising excitement and hope, is that what you feel? I am also going to Italy and the same region on July 6, tho I am not going to Cumae and doing her tour, I did that last year.

In fact in a strange aside, I wrote last year's recommendations up on Rick Steves, for the purpose of recommending one driver for the trip, Renato Cuomo and one hotel, the Settimo Cielo in Sorrento and a TON of people have written and now are taking the same "trip!" In fact one is a newspaper editor in NJ and is writing the trip up, and I bet you a lunch it makes the NY papers, so we're all traveling in some way in her footsteps.

But to me there are two trips, the one you plan for and the one you get. I am very excited about their plans! Could she have gone without the inheritance? WOULD she, do you think? That's a LOT of money, the British pound is now more than double the US dollar.

But millions of questions and lots of terms, too!!

"Nach Cuma" means to Cumae in German, that's Goethe, Traude can correct that.

Carthago delenda est. Delenda est Carthago," is a quote of the Roman Cato the Elder, 234-149 B.C., who hated Carthage and in the Senate every time the subject came up he used to end every speech with, "Carthage must be destroyed." He had the satisfaction of seeing the Third Punic War before his death.

But HUH?........

What did she mean by splashing around up to her knees to get a piece of trash in the water at Regent's Park?

Why does she remember the feeling as a child of being rejected (page 132) and relish it?

Why would she make the leap from a bad tape to the sound of Jane dying under the water??

!!

"My life is so useless. I am redundant. Life has made me redundant. I am retired from it, though I have never had a job from which to retire." (page 133)

Is this her hitting rock bottom before finding a purpose in the trip, a new life?

EmmaBarb, in my Loeb Book VI of the Aeneid, (WORD wanted this to be Adenoid hahahaha) lines 490-494, it says

…soon as they saw the man and his arms flashing amid the gloom, trembled with mighty fear; some turn to flee, as of old the sought the ships; some raise a shout—faintly; the cry essayed mocks their gaping mouths.

I love that. It's so evocative and always reminds me of the movie The Invasion of the Body Snatchers (the second one) and that truly awful scene at the end very much like this.

Her mention of the Gates of Ivory and the Gates of Horn might be significant, I'm thinking!

And what on earth did you make of her sands in the hourglass of time sauna experience?

A British pound for your thoughts this morning!

List of Terms Defined . Pat has done us a great start on the terms and phrases to be defined and translated this morning, I'll be scrambling to keep up with you all! Welcome, All!

Whaadda think?

BellaMarie, what an absolutely beautiful post, you should write!! I have said that before

Yes I feel rising excitement too but a little dread, I do want it to go well for her. I love anything full of promise and hope. But IS it!!!????????????

Where is Jean? I hope I did not scare her away, where Maggie? Everybody come on in, the WATER is fine!! I know Joan G is traveling and Pedln will soon be, everybody, what are your thoughts on this section!?!

I agree with Dandy that Gum (we sound like "Candy" wrappers here hahahaha) has made some great connections, I'm going to have to reread it again for the KNEE thing, this constant draw to water, the KNEES. I love Regent's Park and have seen many people there in the rain, also at Kew, in pouring rain.

Thank you Traude, very kind. I did not know you had lived in Italy! Which part? I love Italy, and am so looking forward to my latest short, unfortunately, trip. Have gone every year now for…I can't even remember and always see something NEW! . This will be my 9th trip to Pompeii for a full day, but I've only recently been going there: I love what they've done with it.

Thank you EmmaBarb, it's fascinating, you'd love it actually, but you can't get the smell OFF. You really have to open the windows.

The " Phlegraean Fields" are the same thing as above, the Campi Flegrei or Burning Fields. I agree Hats, it's quite easy to see why the ancients thought nether regions or the god of fire lived below!

I was reading this morning about tours of Mt Aetna in Sicily and of Stromboil. Last year I climbed Vesuvius. It is my dream to see an erupting volcano, like the one on the big island in Hawaii or Etna or Stromboli, I am fascinated by them. If any of you are interested, the National Geographic Volcanoes DVD is absolutely breathtaking!

Hats, I don't know what "Campi Flegrei is a large 13-km-wide caldera on the outskirts of Naples that contains "numerous phreatic tuff rings and pyroclastic cones. .." means either. Hahahaha It's an area that has 40 volcanoes, so there are a lot of craters, and Solfatara is one and Lake Avernus filled in with water is another, they are all sort of right together. I had THE best site which did explain this perfectly, maybe somebody else can find a good one, but it won't open for anybody now so I fell back on that gobbledegook! Hahahaa, taken from the link in the heading.

But I do know that Vesuvius is considered a very bad volcano, like Pele, which does "Pilinian" eruptions (named after Pliny the Younger's account of the eruption in 79 A.D. which killed his uncle Pliny the Elder. They are horrid umbrella shaped horrors, with " pyroclastic flows" a tremendous cloud of great speed, incredible heat, burning gasses and horror. There were 6 pyroclastic flows at Pompeii. Very few people have ever seen one, the DVD has them on tape. Awful looking things.

I've got a scan of the "purple-pink" line in London coming and my own bombshell (or I hope it is) but how do you all interpret this section and the questions raised this morning? What do you think about the tape Mrs. Jerrold lent Candida?? Why on earth couldn't she just play it back over the phone and ask?

I am seeing hope and excitement but how should we interpret all these strange accompaniments?

Ginny...how exciting to hear you have been to Italy and are returning. I can only hope to one day land my feet on Italian soil. I, like Candida would have to win the lottery or land an inheritance to make it feasible. My husband and I live a modest life and with helping out three kids get their lives situated and helping them put their children through Catholic grade schools I am afraid we have used up our funds for large vacations. But who knows..their is always hope:)

I have to say after listening to the interview and reading the other interview it appears Margaret Drabble is telling us that alot of her material is coincidence yet is there a such thing as coincidence? I loved how in her interviews she stays true to herself as in her books by repeating herself and also contradicting herself. She mentions her books are written NOT to teach but to amuse and inform. I like that because it sounds like she does not take life too seriously.

Just listening to her voice tells me I would like this woman if we met in person. I can relate to her on so many levels as I am certain many of you ladies out here can. Isn't it wonderful to feel as though we have met her already by hearing her voice? Wouldn't it be grand just to have the opportunity to have her here at our discussion and her read all our posts? Can you imagine what she would think of us. I have a feeling she would probably giggle and say, "I think they are taking me too seriously." lolol:)

Ginny I can say I have NO idea where this book is going to end, but I can say that I have a suspicion YOU are enjoying it and experiencing it in a whole different light then the first time. If I would have picked this book to read by myself I know I would not have enjoyed it as much as I have by sharing this with all of you. I can't wait to get to Italy with Candida, Julia and who ever else travels along with them. There was mention of could Candida have afforded to and would have gone without the inheritance? I have to say I have not yet gotten to the part of the inheritance so this was a surprise to me. But...I think yes, she would have taken Julia up on her offer to accompany her on her journey and allow Julia to afford her way because they are two special friends and it would have been a favor on both parts, for Julia to have Candida as her partner with the knowledge of the journey and for Candida to have Julia have the means of being able to afford the trip.</p?

I am off to the pool for a little R & R and to read the next pages so be back later.

I have just "waded" into the first 10 pages of this week's reading homework. <g> Ah, to be a carefree college student again!

In this first two diary entries, I am seeing more glimmers of hope in Candida. She is thinking kind and concerned thoughts about others...getting beyond her self-absorption...reaching out.

To wit... -- visiting Mr. Wormwood Scrubs -- attending free lectures at art galleries -- going to the Health Club -- calling on Mrs. Jerrold -- being curious enough to seek out Eugene Jerrold's obituary -- actually asking to read Mrs. Jerrold's poetry -- even thinking: small group private Virgil lessons with Mrs. Jerrold (showing some initiation consideration if not actual action)

I haven't got to the hard scenes yet that Ginny hinted were upcoming.

Question:

What was your impression of Mrs. Jerrold's house and her possessions?

Ohhhhh...Do tell. Do tell.

Dandy

Right, Dandy. Her life seems pretty full when you start thinking about it, doesn't it.

But gollee, why is Aeneas a shit? Cynthia calls him that, and now Candida does too. I don't know much about him (obviously ), but isn't he following his mandates? This is the same guy who carries his father and household gods on his shoulders?

I'll have to go back and reread about Mrs. J's possessions. She's a pretty sharp lady, but I get the impression her life is more constrained now. She has a lot of stuff, but seems unafraid to share it. However, I wonder if she would have said anything had Candida chosen her most precious umbrella. The one she never used.

Pedln: Maybe they thought Aeneas was a shit because he left Dido to follow his own destiny.

In haste...

I probably missed the explicit discussion. But that period where Candida was clearly depressed and left her marriage bed seems a "dark night of the soul" when she'd discovered that her husband was not only a fraud but also capable of betrayal, perhaps even evil.

"Evening in Paris" is one of two shopping references which recall my youth (day before yesterday). I was later embarrassed that I'd oicked up that perfume at a dime store in the city for my mom for Mother's Day when I was quite young. I believe it was on the sweet side. But I recall it as deep royal blue, not purplish. It was advertised in major magazines.

From the ridiculous to the sublime: With my first summer job, I began a small collection of Pringle's (of Scotland) cashmere sweaters. (Yes, I was an only child.) They were divine to the eye and to the touch, and I haven't found anything like them today. In the 50's, they cost about $!00 to $135., so today they'd be about $500 and out of the question. (Some of Candida's economy has set in.) Beige heather short sleeve--just tossed about ten years ago. A soft pink and a soft light blue long sleeve.

I think Candida has to learn to survive without everything she left behind in Suffolk, including the belief that her daughters would be grateful and loving. She must live for herself, because, as the shampoo ads say, (She's) worth it. The experience of life is an experience of loss--a lesson we hope somehow we won't have to learn. Novelists sometimes help us prepare for our losses?

Bella--Thanks for sharing your trip.

Dandy Lion..."What was your impression of Mrs. Jerrold's house and her possessions?"

I loved the visual I got when reading the description of Mrs. Jerrold's house. The outside..."she lives in a very desirable little cul-de-sac, all high painted wooden carriage doors and hanging baskets and window boxes and potted plants..."

How inviting does this seem? But then again you can not judge a book by its cover, right? So then we get the pleasure of knowing and feeling the inside is just as warm and inviting,... "She has books, and knickknacks, and cats. She lives in an over crowded bohemian little nest. And I liked her accumulation of treasures. It was good to be in a room with history. Mrs. Jerrold's house is full of treasures, a record of her rich and embroidered past. Cushions heap themselves upon the deep armchairs and the hard backed couch. The cats have worn deep hairy hollows into the seats of the plump chairs they favour."

I love to go into a person's home and see who they are and where they have been in life by the things on their walls, their type of furniture, the things on their tables and the smell of the room. I personally think as soon as someone enters my front door they get an idea of the person I am. My living room tells my story, I display family photos along the bottom shelf of my sofa table of my deceased grandparents, parents and in-laws. I have framed pictures of my children and my grandchildren and on the wall above the sofa table is our recent family photo. On the top shelf of the sofa table is framed art work of children and poems and a heavy crystal vase filled with yellow Shasta daisies, white dogwood blossoms, a red glass blown red rose that signifies Cystic Fibrosis and then a number of red cellophane candy kiss roses on long green stems. On my entertainment center is a collection of Enesco's "Angles to Watch Over Me" series and some expensive vases to add a European touch. I have a small Kinkade cottage picture on one wall and a very large cottage picture on the other wall. There is a scalloped border that runs along the top of my living room ceiling that says, HOME SWEET HOME with white cottages and trees as the scenes. An old antique chair painted green with dried flowers and a bird house sits in the corner with a collectable doll sitting amongst the flowers. A large vase of a variety of flowers sits at the far end of the room. My family Bible is the only book you will find on the lower shelf of my end table. Candles are dispersed around the room for fragrance and color. If I had to describe the theme it would be French country with the back wall of burgandy brick wall paper. Off White verticle blinds are the only curtains in the room shading out the bright morning sun in the picture window. I have various shelves on the walls with my cottage knicknacks, flowers and whimsical child like figures. When someone new enters the front door I generally get the same response, that this room is so warm and homey feeling. This is how I envision Mrs. Jerrold's home.

Candida says, "Maybe I've overdone the stripping down. Maybe I've thrown too much away. (My walls are bare.) (I have no photographs. My poor father lies face down in a drawer)"

I can not imagine not having all my treasures, photographs and wall pictures. How and why is Candida so disconnected from any one or anything that brings sentiment and emotional attachment in her life? Did the hurt from the betrayal of her husband and daughters cause her to shut off and close down? Yet three years later she finally is allowing her school friends to come visit her. Is she breaking through her walls of defenses? I could not imagine being friends with someone so cold and unattached.

Okay I shared my home with all of you, now how about we do this little exercise. Each person gives us a description of a room in your home for us to get a little insight of the person you are? Come on don't hold back we have shared much more in the past week.... our thoughts, feelings, fears etc. Can you invite us into your home? lol

Wow. I just got home from a long weekend, and as soon as I decently could turned on the computer to catch up on the discussion. Things are really hopping here. I need to read it all more carefully, but it seems as if we’ve moved from deep analysis of the main character to more speculation about what she’s up to. Great.

I agree with Gumtree’s dark imaginings. I’ve been wondering in that direction for a while now, whether Andrew took up with Jane before he took up with her mother.

I also wonder about Candida’s sexual life before Andrew. Early on she says “I can’t go back into all that old history. I’ll begin with the story of our marriage in Suffolk” (p. 16). She says she was a virgin on her wedding day. Maybe, but I’ve had these dark imaginings about why she is so cold and repressed and critical, why she finds it so hard to give and take affection. Maybe like a person who has been traumatized in some way, perhaps at a young age. And if her husband then showed evidence of the same kind of behavior, that could pretty much finish a person off, couldn’t it?

She’s told us very little about her father, only that he is long dead and his photo is among her household gods. But Book VI tells of Aeneid’s visit to the Underworld to speak with the ghost of his dead father. I keep trying to work out whether Candida is somehow trying to do something similar.

Inexpensive but meaningful to us original lithographs. Very old and somewhat old pieces with modern upholstered. Lots of books, family photos, and TV in the big family room bookcase. Casual dining next to the kitchen, which has a see-through to the 27' TV (with internet) to keep me company--and at one time to stay in touch with our two children.

The children didn't really spend as much time in the family room as I'd expected. We'd decided on a moderate-sized house with the children's (a boy and a girl) rooms bigger than usual, and they must've liked them. No TV there, though.

An oxymoron: urban country.

My living room is for me not my visitors. My sofas have bright pink covers and pale pink throws. The pillows on the sofas are cream with pink roses on them. The full length drapes are cream. My shelving unit has things the kids have made when they were little on the shelves along with gifts and ceramics I have made. I have photos on the walls and some paintings that were gifts or I bought at charity auctions. There are the two dog baskets on the floor. One at each end of each sofa. My PC sits between the living room and dining room in a nook. There is a corkboard covered with snapshots of my family and friends on the wall in front of my desk. I have unfinished pieces of knitting here and there and there is always a piece I am sewing up sitting on one of the sofas. My little tables in the living room are strewn with books and boxes of tissues and this week there is a nice flower arrangement all in pink that Vanessa brought to me at the weekend. I look out on lots of trees from all the windows in the living area. I have an entertainment centre in one corner of the living room which at present only has a 14" TV and my DVD player in residence. Vanessa is giving me their large TV this weekend. They want a new LCD or Plasma for their new house. I have candles in holders on every surface almost. In one corner near the front door I have a stand covered in my handmade scarves and hats. ( quite a lot of them!) Its a very lived in room.

Carolyn

I loved the description of Mrs Jerrold's house. It seems to reflect her perfectly. Mrs Barkley's house also sounds wonderful, although it reflects Mr Barkley's taste more than hers. Both of these women really inhabit their homes in a way Candida does not. She is as insubstantial as a ghost in her flat. I wonder what her little Georgian house was like and if it was filled with personal items. She took so few things away with her when she left. Perhaps they seemed somehow tainted to her from being part of her life with Andrew.

I love every bit of my house, but my favorite part isn't really a room. It's my screened porch in the back of the house. The only substantial piece of furniture is a futon sofa. It is flanked by end tables holding piles of books, magazines and tablets of writing paper. Before the storm almost 2 years ago it was deeply shaded by a couple of trees. After they blew down (luckily, they missed the house), when I was trying to decide what sort of tree to plant to replace them, plants that had been there for years and never bloomed suddenly bloomed like crazy. I decided not to replant trees but to fill all the space with blooming flowers. I planted things that attract butterflies and hummingbirds, mostly perrennials because I am no sort of gardener. Now it's a little paradise out there and I spend way too much time sitting on the porch watching the birds in my feeders and cursing the squirrels. Saturday evening we had a hard rain and it was great to sit and watch the rain come down.

I am so excited. I just found and bought John Dryden's translation of The Aeneid. I think it is the only one in rhymed couplets. It is divine. I am going to try to begin reading Book VI tonight...

ss--I've always craved a screened porch. Since we're set into a hill, there's no place for one. My last house before leaving home had what was called a "breezeway." It was a connector between the house and attached garage. It was fairly small with--what's the word--vaulted?--a natural roof ceiling. The windows were louvered, Florida style. I loved to sit on a daybed which was covered in an old, handmade quilt and read. When it rained, it made a very lovely sound on the roof.

This is the first time I followed a book discussion on line. The experience is amazing. All the discussions give the book so many more layers than I can ever garner on my own. Thank you all. Because of work and family, and also being a bad writer, I am not able to contribute much to the discussion. So I take more than I give.

I visited the Sistine Chapel last October. Wish I knew about Sibyl then.

Is Candida writing this journal for someone?

"It was June, but every day it rained. YOU may remember that year of rain." (pg 126)

Who was she writing to? Is it possible that she meant to pass the journal to one of her daughters? Ellen?

While pondering her motive for inviting Sally for the Italian trip, she stated:

"Or did I want to be kind? that seems unlikely. The human heart is black, so kindness cannot have been the explanation for my deeds" (Pg 151)

Wow! What have happened to her to make her feel this way. I don't think it is the result of her husbands affair or her children's so called betrayal. Her childhood appears to be an unhappy one. But a lot of people have unhappy childhood, a lot of people are victims of affairs. These negative experience don't necessary lead to a black outlook on life. Is it because she is an atheist without any spiritual grounding? Or it is just her nature?

Barbara65b, Your home sounds lovely I love how you mix the old with the new. Don't we tend to design or remodel or homes around our children in their growing years to accommodate their needs?

Kiwi lady, I am enjoying YOUR living room. The pink and cream colors sound so feminine. So you love to sew and knit and have two dogs. Sounds as though you passed down your talent of making things to your children. Those are priceless gifts.

ssthor, Your screened in porch sounds exactly like the room I have been dreaming of having. Its incredible that when the storm took away your trees you have your sanctuary of flowers, birds and butterflies. Mother nature has her way of replacing what she takes away. I too curse them squirrels who help themselves to my bird feeders. lolol

Thank you ladies for opening up your home to us. I truly have a much more clear picture of the person behind the posts, as we do with Mrs. Jerrold and Mrs. Barkley.

ChristineDC, You have reminded me of a thought I had early on and seemed to forget to mention. I question why Candida seems to fixate on other people's sex preferences etc. yet refuses to express her own. I was suspecting a possible experimenting in school with her female friends taking place accounting for her statement she did not want to revisit. Just a hunch since I don't think I knew nor ever spoke of my female friends sex lives. lolol

I don't get the feeling she had any wrong doing on her father's part as a child because his is the only photo she kept. He also watched out for her ending up giving her the large windfall due to his guidance and advice.

I suspect we will not be finding out anymore. from her on her relationship with her father unless you are correct and she like Aeneas visits the Sybil and gets to have some sort of contact.

EmmaBarb
May I answer some of your questions in your # 229.

Re Pozzuoli (pg 99).
A Greek colony named Dicaearchia, it became a Roman colony in 194 BC with the Latin name Puteoli, probably for the malodorous mineral springs in the area, notably in the Solfatara, which GINNY described earlier in eloquent words and magnificent photos. The Solfatara is the most impressive volcanic phenomenon known, a quiescent crater with fumaroles, carbon dioxide and mineral springs whose temperatue rise to 160° C.

Pozzuoli is the largest city within the Campi Flegrei (= Phlegrean Fields) some 170 km from Napoli/Naples in the region of Campania. (Italy has 20 'regions'; Switzerland has 'cantons'.)

Re pg. 112. "a pot of rillettes" is potted minced pork.

Yes, "Nach Cumae" is German, as GINNY already said.

GINNY, that hotel in Sorrento certainly has a catchy name, "Settimo Cielo" = Seventh Heaven !

To answer your question: I studied lettere (= Arts and Letters) in Florence and Perugia and hold an Italian degree. I graduated from Heidelberg University with a degree in Languages and Linguistics and immediately afterward fled Germany for my life a few months before the end of the war. I was not able to return until two years later. From 1946 until September 1947 I lived in Venice, known as "La Serenissima". It is still glorious to tbe beholder but overrun by tourists in the summer and sadly, slowly sinking into the lagoon.

Interesting pictures. My son and DIL lived in Pozzuoli -- in 1989 -- he was assigned to the NATO base in Naples. I visited them that summer and they took me to the Campi Flegrei; at least I think that's what it was called -- I didn't know beans about it or Sybil or Cumae, but I remember the smoking and the sulpher smell. Now to hunt up those picutures and slides.

Talk about parallels to real life in this book. Loved Candida's report of her visit to the dentist. And where was I reading it? This afternoon, in the dentist's office. Mine's a nice guy, but he's not divine. He gives me a shot of antibiotics in the arm -- no way to be gentle about that, and then comes back about an hour later after the hygienist has finished. I told him I was reading about another dentist in my book, but just couldn't bring myself to quote Candida.

hats ~ thanks. I'm wanting to read the rest of the book now...it's pulling me in.

(p.134) crenellations
(p.138) what is pederasty ?
I guess I could Google these.
I'm tempted to purchase a Lottery ticket using her numbers 3.9.15.21.31.45 -- she never mentioned how she selected these numbers, unless I missed it. Hey if we all get one and win we could tag along with Ginny to Italy and then follow Virgil and Aeneid's path. [About Virgil's ancient poem, maybe someone would volunteer to discuss just Book VI.]

Thomas Kinkade's painting are beautiful but over-priced and most of what are for sale are prints. Be careful what you buy.

I think the theme of this book is also about getting old, death and dying, and afraid of being alone.

Lisabeth ~ you may have something there about the tape. She's playing it at the wrong speed. Will we ever know what's on the tape ?

Ginny ~ I love Rick Steves on TV. That's terrific your recommendations for the trip are being used by many and written up in the newspapers.
I doubt Candida would have gone anywhere without that pension windfall. But how great it is (almost like winning the Lottery). How much did she actually receive ? I'm not up on the British pound.
Adenoid...hahaha that's funny.
Thanks for the lines 490-494.
I think it was down right silly about the sand in the hourglass in the sauna getting stuck. The sand probably got wet from all that steam.

Ginny ~ that page for "Terms and Links" is very well done. Was all that in the book ? It will take on a whole new meaning for me.

Oh is it too early to talk about the ring Andrew gave her ?

If I would describe my living room and dining area (an L) first I would say my rug really needs some attention with the vacuum cleaner (I'm much too busy hahaha). My house looks lived in and nicely decorated, lots of art and things I love, I think you would enjoy visiting me. It's a townhouse and though I live in the city, I have woods in back that are designated as a bird santuary. It gives me something of nature to look at every season of the year. When the leaves are down I can hear the traffic on I-95 (that goes from Florida to New York). And the No. 10 Fire House and Hospital are right down the road, so I have gotten used to sirens going off. My oldest son wants me to get away from the city and move next door to him where it's still rural and no neighbors.

Traude ~ yes please. I'm very much interested in your answers. I'd never have guessed what a pot of rillettes was, potted minced pork.

I'm enjoying reading all the posts and as someone said, it makes reading this book that much more enjoyable.
Emma

There are too many things in my front room (also the bedroom) to describe, but looking at what is in there made me realize that almost all the most beautiful objects are gifts. That surprised me. I have a a very large signed framed photograph for example over my bed (it is the width of my queen size bed) of The Gates by Christo that is a gift from the parent of one of my former students. He is Christo's personal massage therapist. Another is a framed print by Bruno Bruni over my mantel Another gift. And a beautiful Chinese brush painting of flowers by one of my students who is quite an artist.

There are two bookcases, one is floor to the ceiling filled with books. I can't part with anything I read. On the mantel are so many pieces that I love...almost all gifts. Right now one vase is filled with fresh red roses given to me this past Saturday...well not so fresh today,,,they die rather quickly. I have tried in that room to play with color and texture. The big pillows on the bed are covered in India print fabric multicolored and the small one is more muted but velvet.

And through the windows, although I live in Manhattan, are trees and trees and trees. All I see is green when I look out and right now, I can hear the birds. Unfortunately because this is Manhattan I can also hear the noise of a jackhammer digging away at another new construction site two blocks from me,,,creating one more high rise luxury building...this one very controversial because it is on the land of the very famous Cathedral of St. John the Divine.

I began to read Book I of the Aeneid last night and the poetry of Dryden's translation is flowing beautifully. I have read some of it aloud and the sound of it is so very lovely...I will probably skip to Book VI at some point so I can relate it to The Seven Sisters, but I would love to read through to that section instead of skip. I just don't know if I have the time although I definitely have the desire to do it.

EmmaBarb
pg. 138, pederasty, known and practiced by the ancient Greeks and even earlier, is the 'unnatural' relationship between an adult male and a boy.

Google has an excellent definition cum illustration of 'crenellations'. Forts and castles have them with embrasures from which to shoot at an enemy.

In haste.

EmmaBarb, "I'm tempted to purchase a Lottery ticket using her numbers 3.9.15.21.31.45 -- she never mentioned how she selected these numbers, unless I missed it. Hey if we all get one and win we could tag along with Ginny to Italy and then follow Virgil and Aeneid's path."

You can't imagine how much I would love to do just this. I am afraid my hubby would be like Mr. Barkley and want to tag along. lol

I am so impressed at how many of our members here have actually lived in Italy or have visited it. I suppose I am a bit like Candida, my life has been less adventurous up to now. We take many trips but the farthest I can say I have been out of the U.S.A. is Toronto Canada. My husband and I went to Vegas last year and visited the Hotel Paris and Venetian and rode the gondola ride because I said its probably the closest I will ever come to Italy. lolol

pg. 103 Candida says, "I rashly asked if I could see her poems." "Opening it seemed a very personal, invasive act.", "I couldn't bring myself to try to read a poem. It didn't seem right sitting there, in her presence."

I am a writer and have written many poems. I have had two published in the International Library of Poetry, yet I completely can relate to Candida's feeling of invading a person's personal life by reading their poems. It took me many years to be brave enough to submit my poems for public eye. I was very shy and did not even share them with my husband and family for years. When I received my hard copy in the mail I was so excited to see my poem the first in the volume, yet still there was a certain amount of reserve for me to share it with my family. When my daughter in law sat reading it I felt the need to leave the room.

Okay I have to ask, what did you all think of this statement on pg. 110? "I wonder what happened to that girl with the lipoma. I haven't seen her for weeks. I can't ask after her, because I don't know her name. Moreover, it would be interfering and intrusive to inquire. And anyway, I don't care. I'm curious, but curiosity has nothing to do with caring."

That just seemed such a bold statement. How many of us are curious and can say we really don't care? I feel I have a sense of caring at some level about almost everything and especially about people who enter my life even if it were just in a health club. Candida sure has a way about her that seems so inhuman at times.

You wouldn't be able to tell much about me from my living room- woodstove, couch and easy chairs, television, shelves with some steins and books, and a few of my owls. A few years ago my youngest son gave me a brass owl and from then on, the owls seemed to flock in here. Several were presents from friends and I found others in shops and on trips.

My favorite place is upstairs, and that is where I keep all the things that are important to me- the storage chests that my son and grandson built for me of Tennessee red cedar and yellow pine, my picture albums and fairy tale books. The walls are slightly sloped at the top as we have a modified gambrel roof. Walls, ceiling, everything painted white for light, the counter tops are blue, and I stenciled the cabinet doors and drawer-fronts with sky blue flowers.

Here I have my work table for quilting, and shelves for books, two sitting areas for reading and visiting, the little cove with my desk and Latin books, and this computer desk a few steps away. Four of the chairs are draped with fluffy sheepskins.

We have plenty of trees outside, and every year have to cut down a few. Otherwise they start to close in, almost as if they were creeping toward the house. After they reach a certain size they grow very fast, which causes that illusion. It's good though, as we use only wood heat in winter. There's a huge cedar tree on the edge of the front yard where we hang a bird feeder, and watch from the living room window. It took me a while to get used to living in the country. At first it seemed too quiet but now I like it.

When Candida- learning of her inheritance- rushed to make travel plans and tell friends, it bothered me so much that I felt like quitting the book. Of course, I didn't. After a few hours I picked it up and went on, but nervously. I had to make sure that she didn't lose or waste it. Did it affect anyone else like that? Considering the reduced circumstances in which she is living, it seems she would want to move more slowly. I am having trouble understanding Candida. She is well educated, a bit of a snob and judgmental, but somehow childlike as well. Back to the book.

I just finished Book I of The Aeneid. I have some questions. By the way, it was beautiful and tells of Aeneas' first encounter with Dido. If no one has read it, I will investigate using the Internet. Doing it here would be more fun and perhaps helpful to others because I think it has some bearing on Book VI.

Beautiful post from each and everyone of you so decided to get the book from the library and am only on page 57 but catching up reading it as the electrian was working had to convere with him and then back to reading (not a good way to read)

.

Candida is down sizing but seems to be taking it very well thru such devestating circumstnces.

More later.

I have been so irritated by thia book, i decided to take a break and am re reading the last Harry Potter. Colkots

goldensun, ,"When Candida- learning of her inheritance- rushed to make travel plans and tell friends, it bothered me so much that I felt like quitting the book. Of course, I didn't. After a few hours I picked it up and went on, but nervously. I had to make sure that she didn't lose or waste it. Did it affect anyone else like that?"

I have to say the inheritance is not actually an actual inheritance is it? Is it not a windfall for investing wisely on the advice of her father? Anyway, yes I had a little bit of a problem with Margaret Drabble having this happen. It just does not hold true to the person or the theme of the book. I think I would have much preferred Candida taking the Italy trip with Julia from her offer as a companion. Its like Candida's whole personality changed when she got the money. All of a sudden she is like an extremely happy extrovert, the entire opposite of who she has been up to that happening. Does money change people that drastic and that quickly?

I like the person I am seeing leading up to the money in pages 117 "Her Horizons begin to expand", "She meets a divine stranger in the terrible shop and ponders on his question", pg. 122, and "She sees the girl with lipoma crying and offers her succour" pg. 128 This if finally showing her caring side.

I am enjoying this book regardless of the in consistencies, the outrageous themes and the mean spirited person Candida has been up to this point. I can't wait to begin the journey to Italy with them.

I think everyone has been guilty of mean thoughts. I do not believe there is never a time when one of you has not had any of these thoughts. One would have to be a saint literally to be free of any negative thoughts towards others. Candida is brave enough to document them.

As for the money I think Candida sees it as a way to broaden her horizons and as a lifechanging event. I don't think during her marriage there was much money to spare after the keeping up of appearances.

I like Candida for being honest with herself. If you think about it a really mean person does not agonise over their thoughts as Candida has from time to time.

carolyn

I read pp. 108-117 yesterday.

I picked up on Candida's "neat and tidy" critical thinking...prefers the old-fashioned wooden hourglass-shaped egg timer...only halfway exposes herself in the sauna...had orderly piles of linens in the Holling House cupboards...has a neat and tidy near death experience...not producing much rubbish for the binmen...upset about the disorderly dustbin lids...would have given the man with the crucifix a make-over...checks 10 times for her house key...comments on her unattractive neighborhood shops vs. butcher's shop...appreciates the manicured gardens with topiary...compares the designer shoppers at the butcher's shop with less cultured Londoners.

This is all textual evidence for her need to control.

I had one point of confusion on p. 114. Why is she abruptly ashamed? Intimidated by the butcher's shop and the shoppers? Yes. But the shame has a deeper ccre and I haven't connected the dots yet. Hmmm...why aspired to be a male concert pianist? Perhaps: A male concert pianist controls the instrument making it perform to his dictates. A male concert pianist is applauded (respected). Control is something Candida respects, but she doesn't feel respect. She feels shame. Hmmm...I haven't worked this passage out yet.

And!!! What IS on the "secret surprise" tape? Hmmm...again.

Dandy

My home is neat and tidy except for my writing desk, which is my personal possession that best reflects my personality. My writing desk is cluttered with piles of writing ideas, stacks of art/drawing books, spiritual growth materials, patterns for personalizing into my artistic sewing projects, an eclectic collection of desk toys, and drawers crammed with creativity supplies. All of which express my curious nature. So much to study and learn!

My desk in like the circus with an activity in each of the three rings going on simultaneously, clowns teasing the audience, and trapeze/high wire artists performing above. My life like the circus is spectacular and fun!

Fun exercise, BellaMarie

I have a junk room! Its full of stuff I cannot bear to part with. Does anyone else admit to one of these rooms. I keep saying. I must sort out this room and get rid of some of this stuff. But what to ditch! My roof storage is empty. The room used to be my office and should be my sewing room!

carolyn

Thank you Dandy Lion, I rather enjoyed reading and learning all the neat things of each individual as you all so eloquently described your home, especially your favorite spot in your home.

Kiwi lady, I so agree with you that every human being has at one time or another harbored mean thoughts. We would not be human if we didn't. I just have found Candida more filled with the mean spirit and negativity that can be very difficult for a person like me to relate to and want to be around. I am beginning to enjoy her much more since she has gotten the money and is planning the trip. Her whole attitude is upbeat, considerate and tolerant. I was touched how she took the time to invite the girl to have coffee. That was out of character of the person she seemed in the first 95 pages of the book. She truly is expanding her world.

don't understand the problem with candida taking the trip. she isn't spending her whole windfall, after all. i can see that she would prefer to pay her own way for the trip of her dreams rather than go on a budget tour with sally or a tagalong with julia. it is a splurge but i don't think it's crazy or spendthrift. she does mention that she will still receive pension benefits when the time comes as well as this one-time disbursement.

like candida so i feel i must rise to her defense again. julia, anais, cynthia and mrs jerrold are intelligent women and we aren't given any reason to distrust their judgment. they all seem to like candida. when she invites them to travel with her, they all jump at the chance. her negativity and bitterness are confined to the pages of the journal and are her little secret. she behaves pretty decently to people.

ssthor, You are so correct in pointing out the entries in the journal is where she is insufferable. She indeed does treat everyone with much respect and is a good friend. I agree she would much rather pay her own way rather than be Julia's companion or do a budget tour with Sally. She has expressed feeling diminished by having to live off of Andrew's alimony and not having worked all these years. Money does empower you and give you a certain freedom.

Thank you for pointing out the fact all of her nastiness and mean spiritedness are the entries NOT her actual words or actions to these people. I suppose we all have had ill feelings or dislikes as Candida has, yet to the person's face we carry on as though we are the best of friends. I'm not so sure its healthy to have those type of relationships but then Candida is far from being of a healthy mind or spirit.

Somehow I've missed the beginning of this discussion; I will try to catch up. My retirement has been blighted by a vexing family situation which I did not anticipate and my concentration is spotty so please be patient with me. Reading is am escape from coping with a situation I cannot change so analylitical/critical reading does not fare well these days. Stay tuned...

I would wondor what England has in the way of tax for her windfall. Some places do tax that sort of thing very very heavily. I am a big puzzled as to why she wants and needs all of those people..But then I dislike large crowds with me when I travel. I tend to be sort of hermit like except for my husband and a few friends.. I have also learned while traveling that while my husband and I get along really well, I have never found a friend that I can travel with and enjoy myself..He and I are so similar in taste and like the same sort of mix of museums, a little shopping and a whole lot of walking. As to travel, I have been stuck in Auburn , Indiana for four days. Our coach developed a broken seal on the differential and then they discovered a slash in an inner tire. We had to wait for parts in a teeny little town.. Lovely museum of old cars, but that was it.. With the dogs it makes it difficult when they need to work on the coach.. We spent yesterday in a teeny little park since we could not stay in the coach. The dogs loved it, but camp chairs are not that comfortable.

Bella--Just wait. You've fallen into the same trap that most of us here have at one time or other--you took Candida's word for something. There's evidence she does care about people--even strangers--with more to come.

We haven't traveled abroad either. My husband just isn't into it, though he was a history prof. I love it, but it's always tiring for me, and I don't sleep well in noisy hotels. (I have one of those white noise machines--Hammacher-Schlemmer & elsewhere). I keep thinking now that my cataract surgery seems to have worked--finally!--and I can see better than in years, I'd love to fly to London and take the underwater train to Paris.

If anyone knows of a quiet hotel or apartment in London, please share. My grandfather left Cambridge U. to establish a Presbyterian Church in the upper-Midwest, so I'd like to have a look at that too.

I have been to and lived in major cities here, and we go to NY to visit our daughter. She shared a very tiny one-room apartment with small kitchen and loft bed ($1500) in Manhattan. Now alone, she lives in a house in Brooklyn owned by a male (no romantic possibilities there) theater friend from college. She's been nearly everywhere--Italy twice--but the Far East. No wimp she.

I was surprised when I was teaching an (average) freshman English class in a NC university that nearly half the young people in two classes had been to Europe.

I have so enjoyed reading about everybody's houses! And you all write so well, look what we've learned about each other, fantastic exercise, I love it. I tried it and I sound like Candida, , isn't that strange. Hahahaa

I agree that her actions don't always agree with her words.

Traude I did not know about your Italian sojourn either or degree, how fascinating. Thank you for all the definitions I'll put them up on our page. Yes the Settimo Cielo name is not a fluke, it's every bit that. Your own private balconies overlooking the Bay of Naples, Sorrento to the right and Vesuvius across the water. It's heavenly.

Thank you Emma, yes that was a list of some of the terms in the first section, actually hahaha many more to come, thanks to our intrepid researchers here.

Ginger!! Welcome welcome, we're very glad to have you here, you're catching up very fast!

And Mrs. Sherlock, I was just wondering yesterday where you WERE, I had seen you about in other areas, I'm glad you're back!

Pedln! I'd love to see photos of the region, and I particularly liked the Temple of Serapis in (or whatever they now think it is) Pozzuoli, that bradyism is incredible.I'm thinking the Arco Felice is near there, too, what did you thnk of Pozzuoli, did you agree with the…was it Anais' (had to look it back up) description?

Like ssthor I wish I had known about what was on the Sistine chapel when I visited it, too. Oh well, no time like the present! Ahahaha Emma is right, the Delphic Sibyl (who I always thought was the Cumean in the ceiling, I was somewhat shocked to see such a muscular person) is MUCH prettier. Hopefully she will mention her too, she said Andrew and she went to Delphi once.

I think we'd do better also with the London Tube to go to the official links but here's the "purple pink" line as mentioned on page 126, it's the map of the London subway or Tube lines London Subway (Tube) lines and I think you can see it better on this link: London Tube

I got out my apron of same all excited only to find nothing gold has stayed, the once white apron is a sickly shade of off yellow plastic with SPOTS on it!

Hahaha

Here is the stop she was talking about: Great Portland Street on the top right (sorry it does not seem to be clear) and if you continued down to the left on that same line (not in this photo) you'd see Ladbrook or however you spell it, can't see if it's two o's or one: Grove where she lives?:

But look off to the upper right, there IS a Seven Sisters on the blue line, the first stop shown here on the left::

Interesting huh?

Lizabeth, I'm willing to read Book I of the Aeneid! I don't have the Dryden but will read one that I do have, give me a day or two and let's see what we see there. In Edit: give me till the weekend, now I can't find my Aeneid!! It's a curse!

more....

Barbara, I don't know of accommodations like you mention but you GO, GIRL!! We'll all want to hear your adventures, you can always rent a house from the National Trust, they have some super ones, and often quite reasonable, or they used to be, and in very scenic places.

BellaMarie, I would say from your beautiful and poetic description of your two days with your husband that you're rich beyond compare, that was lovely!

But OCNDANCE!!!!! Has hit it! I nearly fell out of my chair when I read it, and then all sorts of things have kept me off and VOILA there she is with it!!!! !

So many of you have used the word "journal" and "diary" and we had pretty much settled that she wrote this for herself.

Then a slip, a bombshell, see ocndance's post 253, where she asks if Candida is writing this journal for somebody?

BECAUSE she caught it! Check it out, "It was June, but every day it rained. YOU may remember that year of rain." (Page 126).

Who may remember? I don't live in London, who is she talking to, she's definitely talking to somebody, certainly not herself. WHOOOO is YOUUUUU?

There it is. That's not a slip on the part of the author, it's another CLUE!! Good work, ocndance!

And if this is a diary or a journal where are the days, the months the years? What year in fact IS this? Is the journal written in 2003? 1948? 1978? When?

Is this contemporary?

Who is this written for, it's not Candida??

Colkots, why are you irritated by the book?

Goldensun, wow it bothered you so much you felt like quitting!! No NO~!! In for a penny in for a pound even if she wades out and kills the moorhens! But I also paused in my reading there, also, something does not seem right, to me. I think you're right, something is off here. And Stephanie thinks so too:

Stephanie, me too: "I am a bit puzzled as to why she wants and needs all of those people." Me too.

Thank you for filling us in on your own Odyssey there, sounds like a movie!

And BellaMarie, also! I had not tied Candida's behavior to the money but one thing that did bother me was suddenly as you say she's an extrovert, arranging a trip for a LOT of people. I'm having a problem somewhat getting over the change. It's true that the class knows each other, but they don't know Julia and not your "frightful friend" Sally. I can't think what she's thinking of? I really can't. Has she not traveled? I think she said not. The wrong traveling companions can destroy any trip. This does not bode well for me but I'm caught up in the pre trip excitement myself.

Can I imagine what Drabble would think of us? She'd probably be pleased, most other people couldn't understand it, at all. Hahaah

Pedln and Gum, I think you're right, Aeneas' behavior with Dido, who was in love with him, after dallying with her was somewhat…er… not nice, it's quite a good read actually. In Book IV of the Aeneid, he suddenly sails away (Jupiter made him leave, answering a complaint by a spurned suitor of Dido's). She commits suicide, cursing him all the way, for being a bad guy. Love 'em and leave 'em.

Hats, I think you asked about Creusa, o Creusa. In Book II of the Aeneid, Creusa, the daughter of the King of Troy, Priam and his wife Hecuba, and Aeneas' wife, you remember was lost as they fled the city. Her ghost warns Aeneas of the adventures which lie before him.

Pedln that's a good point about the umbrella, what if Candida had chosen the prized one?!? Then she'd HAVE to bring it back and not "run away" as Mrs. Jerrold says, again.

I am also still puzzling over several things:

There are no pictures on Candida's walls, in contrast to the bright images you've all painted of your own homes, and the only photo she brought with her (is that right?) is her father, "My poor father lies face down in a drawer."

Why face down? Can't she bear for him to look out at her? WHY face down? I'm having some problems even SEEING her. I think we are all charitably reading into her character, I really do.

Why… or DO you all think that it's the MONEY that has caused this change of heart? That WAS a lot of money, or it would be to me. As of this evening, 120,000.00 GBP = 237,067.03 USD

Surely she can't spend $237,000 on a trip to Italy. Unless she treats them all and 120,000 of them.

Welcome back, Christine, (loved that "decently") hqahahaa, that was an interesting point about Andrew being the same kind of person or doing the same kind of behavior, I mean what attracted them to each other in the first place?

He can't pass a mirror without looking at it. Can you all? Is that necessarily a sign of vanity or something else?

I really think from your wonderful descriptions that you are much more interesting people than the book!

BellaMarie, I did ponder the statement about the girl with the lipoma on page 110 and the curious thing about "curiosity has nothing to do with caring." Why on earth does she have to beat herself up all the time, why mention it at all? Why if she's now the extrovert can't she simply ASK what's wrong with the tape? Why would Mrs. Jerrold give HER a tape of Jane drowning?

Jeepers.

EmmaBarb, no please DO talk about the ring Andrew gave her!!!

I will add your themes of "getting old, death and dying and being afraid of being alone" to the heading, this fairly short book seems to have a LOT I think there are even MORE themes.

I also thought the "sands in the hourglass of time" were silly. Or maybe even more than that. Melodramatic? If I could spell histrionic I would.

YES!! YES YES YES!!! Let's all go out and use those numbers (where are our mathematics people? Pedln? What are those numbers, some sequence of 3 and/ or 7? But let's use them and buy a lottery ticket!!!!! I'm game!

I had to laugh at her with the lottery ticket, I'll tell you my own story some day, what a pitiful experience that was. Those are a lot of numbers, looks like 6 I think they have something called the big 6, I'll buy one tomorrow, let's all do! Hahaha And report back.

Barbara, loved the sweater story, I think all of you write brilliantly, how wonderful your surroundings sound.

I liked Carolyn's thought about Candida being honest. Let's ask you all, do you think she is honest? With herself? With others?

??

Dandy, you really picked up the neat and tidy but doesn't the 10 times checking for the keys when listed with all that other stuff sound more like an obsessive compulsive type of behavior?

Carolyn, me too, I also have a "junk room," one of the spare bedrooms, yes indeed. And it definitely needs sorting! Our roof storage is also empty and now the barn is cleaned up (the barn was my "attic") due to the somewhat strenuous efforts of my oldest son, bless his heart. Looks much better. It's amazing what you can accumulate in 40 years!

BellaMarie asked back there that IF Candida goes to Italy do we think she will find her peace and happiness, or will it mean the end of her? What do you all think? I sort of interpreted the Golden Bough remark as her taking a big chance, which this is.. but why the Bough? Is she afraid she can't come back out without it?

What IS the Golden Bough, getting the group together? What IS she talking about and WHY is she referring to herself in the 3rd person? And who is YOU?? On p age 126? I feel we've made a breakthrough here!

The London Lighthouse is real:

- a continuum of care. Spence C, MacGregor H, Malach S, Mansfield S, O'Brien U, Pipes M. Int Conf AIDS. 1989 Jun 4-9; 5: 884 (abstract no. Th.E.P.71). Management Team, London Lighthouse, London, UK OBJECTIVE: To describe a unique model of care for people with HIV, ARC and AIDS in the London area which is of potential value in all health care planning strategies. METHOD: The description of London Lighthouse, a community project offering a continuum of care for people with HIV. This project has based its services on needs as defined by people with the virus and on principles of love, respect and non-oppression. RESULTS: London Lighthouse has grown in 2 years to become one of the largest AIDS voluntary organisations in the UK.

Hats, I'll add "risk taking" also to the themes in the heading, good one. It's going to take me a while to get all the new definitions into our Terms page, but I'll work on it in the next few days off and on.

Would you believe there's MORE? Turn off the bubble machine! hahaha

All right! My book is getting all marked up here, very satisfactory. I look as if I know what I'm doing! In different color inks, yet! Hahahaa

OK here are my new questions. What does this mean (page 97) Simone Weiil…"She was wedded to filth and lowliness. I don't know much about Simone Weil but I do know something." Good heavens, what does she mean?

Her walls are bare. There isn't much room for books. What IS in this apartment, can you picture it?

What does it mean that slipped into Mrs. Jerrold's poems is "She Stands on the Sea Shore and Foretells Her Own Death?"

There's the shore again, and death in the water, neatly tucked away in the old book of poems.

Why was she ashamed when she ate her crown of lamb?

Tiime stops again on page 127, it's kind of frightening to me. What did you think of her in the paragraph that starts, "I was feeling desperate?"

Why was she feeling desperate. Why does she say afterwards, on page 128:

But looking back, this was a low point.
Things are better now, aren't they?

And then Jove's thunderbolt arrives. And nothing is the same. We learn her name for the first time.

And the potential bombshell#2: I admit to having fabricated some bits of conversation in this narrative.

Uh….what does this say about her honesty? And what on earth are we to make of the way this section concludes?

Well, if Drabble could read all this she'd say, "In none of my visits to the US, did I ever imagine how brilliant those rebels were." Since she's an editor of the Oxford Guide to Literature, she must appreciate such gifted criticism.

Now, I can see a freshman lit student alarming her teacher with this stretch, but I can't shake the idea that her old buddies, as well as being real characters, could represent aspects of what she might have been. Sally, repressed and eschewing or not preferring men, sublimates her sensuality by indulging in food. Julia gives free rein to the senses and like Candida, who chose the domestic path, was also betrayed.

I recall a character in "Much Ado About Nothing" warning that, ladies, it's just in the nature of men to betray. (Anthropologists site an anachronistic biological imperative to ensure their seed will fall on fertile ground.) But Sally's equally dissatisfied in her solitary existence. Pretty pessimistic. Candida, however, has the means and heart to create a richer existence and in the midst of her whining, she's excited by the realization.

Or maybe not.

We're warned there's a surprise coming. I may cheat.

And just to add to the questions:

On page 161, she writes an entire paragraph about the Lady Pond beginning with this sentence: "The Lady Pond was a pretty place to die." I thought that line was strange...

And the last sentence of the next paragraph when she tells the man (not the man,,,,,she writes "my man" ) in prison that she is going on holiday. She ends that paragraph "I think I will tell him the truth when I get back. If I get back." IF I GET BACK????!!!!

And then she drops her engagement ring in the pool She says: "I have divorced myself from Andrew and married the blue water." Excuse me. How does one marry water? If you unite yourself with water, you die..

I found the descriptions of your houses wonderful, with attics and barns and yards and trees that belong to you. I do not have a house. I live in an apartment...four rooms...on the third floor of a walk-up on the Upper Westside of Manhattan near Columbia University. I found your descriptions fascinating as they are so different from the world in which I live...

I can't imagine myself in an apartment. I can't imagine not having a yard with trees and I can't imagine not being in a bungalow. I lived in an apartment on the second floor for only a couple of weeks til my grandad visited and had a hissy fit. He made sure I got a reasonably priced cottage to rent. ( this was shortly after we married and he was visiting us for the first time) The apartment was in a picturesque old house. Apartments were rare then in my country and there were only a couple of purpose built apartment blocks in the area where I lived. Most apartments were in converted mansions.

Carolyn

Kiwi Lady:

Where do you live, if I may ask? What is a bungalow and how is that different from a house? Sorry if this is off topic but I am curious.

I guess I would prefer a house with a back yard but having a house in Manhattan is very very expensive and I love living here.

I do know someone who owns a three story brownstone house near me. She bought it and then did major renovations.They even have a backyard and her husband built a pond back there. It is beautiful. I have no idea how much they paid though.

I live in the suburbs in Waitakere City NZ. A bungalow is a term for a house low to the ground which is only one level. Things have changed here very much due to the cost of property also. There are apartments in the next street to mine. I never thought I would see the day out here. Apartments are everywhere due to the land shortage and the price of stand alone houses.

Carolyn

Lizabeth ~ I just love the fact you have all that art work around you to enjoy...the gifts and the one from one of your artist students especially. You made me realize that a lot of the items I have around have been gifts.

Traude ~ oh I should have guess that ... sort of like ped-ophile.
Appreciate your help with definitions.

BelleMarie726 ~ Well your hubby could tag along if you want him to.
My last trip anywhere was Germany for three weeks. I was all ready with a visa to drive to France but at the last minute couldn't make it. I just loved visiting Tahiti one time. If I ever went there again I would never return here. It was paradise. I do hope the tourist business has not damaged it or the other islands.
We have a Mega Million Lottery here but it requires a power ball. Maybe the number 7 could be the power ball.
The young girl with lipoma(?sp)lymphoma...Jenny...I'm afraid it is more serious than that.

I had some bad news this evening. While having my usual dinner at a local restaurant, my dining friend told me that a young man who used to wait on us had died suddenly last week. We kept asking the other waiters/waitresses what they knew and all we could get out of them was the funeral was last Thursday. Such a nice young man he was, it's so sad, he was only 27 and had a lovely wife (who was very well off). Seems like he had the perfect life but now he's dead. It's a shock, I can't stop thinking about it.

The pension windfall...I had a bit of a problem with that in that I had hoped Candy would have managed it on her own, maybe by going to work or something. But then I thought, well at her age it was wonderful to have the surprise of the investment she knew nothing of and being able to do something she dreamed of doing before she died.

I don't know if money changes one that drastic and that quickly. Let me win the Lottery and then ask me Actually I've always said if I won the Lottery the first thing I would do is split it with my children. Then buy myself a new car (not that I need one), donate some to a girl's orphanage, my favorite charities, and we'd see where it goes from there.

kiwi lady (Carolyn) ~ my computer room (upstairs) is also my guest bedroom, sewing room, office, and storage area. One of these days I keep telling myself I really must tackle this room one corner at a time...but then, when would I find time to read my book !

Ginny ~ I had to go back and read that again...where you said, "no please DO talk about the ring Andrew gave her!!!" Okay, well I'm so surprised just before her journey she dropped her ring Andrew gave her into the pool at the Health Club. She was afraid to drop it in the drain for fear it would clog up the system. She said, someone will probably recognize it as belonging to her, like maybe Jenny, and return it to her when she returned. Do you think she meant for Jenny to have it knowing she was very ill ?
Thank you so much for the link to the London Lighthouse. By-the-way, I used to work at NIH and remember the National Library of Medicine being built. I guess then that Candida volunteered there or ? Why did she see to mention the Lighthouse.

I think her apartment walls were bare because she thought of it as just a temporary place to live.

Emma

I left Harry Potter saving the world from evil..!

It is most interesting sharing with other people their domiciles and how they live. I left my house in Chicago on February 1 to visit my daughter in California, never imagining that I would not be back until mid May. It's an old frame house which used to be a cottage dating from about 1900 (the old gas lines for lighting are still in the high ceilings and the circular opening for the old Franklin stoves covered over in the chimney which runs through the house) The house was raised and a slab basement put in somewhere along the way, It's on a quiet tree-lined street on the NW side of Chicago, now the oldest house on the block.Wooden stairs take you up to the main part, living room, dining room (computer room/office off that)bathroom, huge kitchen,my bedroom off that, an enclosed heated back porch looks out onto a back yard. There's a cherry tree, black currant bush, raspberries,schav (sorrel) scented rosesand various other plantswhich have come back after my absence. Upstairs are 2 more huge bedrooms, in the basement my son's room ,bathroom and washer/dryer etc. A family house which raised 4 kids. My younger son has adapted the place for an older person's safety. I'm SO glad to be here. My "old British school chum" lived in New Zealand for a while with her family, but she's now back in Windsor England where I visit with her from time to time. Isn't email wonderful.. Best Colkots.

The financial windfall seems to have brought Candida to life. I don't think she is going to spend it all on the trip though. Somewhere (sorry I don't have the text handy) she says that she has already spent some of it but doesn't tell us on what? Or did I miss that.

And can you tell me why Ellen is so afraid of the telephone? Candida mentions it twice in this section. I fear something dreadful has happened in this family - something that is never discussed - not even hinted at except in this journal Candida is keeping for...who? Not herself it seems. And not us either - Drabble is the one writing for us not Candida.

This entire family appears to be dysfunctional in one way or another.The daughters all seem to have one hang-up or another. Why? And then what about Sally and Julia, they don't have it together either.

There is something missing in all the characters, Anais for one and Mrs Barclay too,- something mysterious there about her relationship with Mr. Barclay. He says she is precious to him - in what way I wonder? Mr. Barclay is very perceptive of them all. He certainly seems to have got Anais' number, and Julia's too when he offers them advice for their travels. I must check again to see what he said to Mrs Jerrold as he took his leave from the party.

Mrs. Jerrold may hold the key to all this. I think maybe she is the Sibyl. I saw the business with the choice of umbrellas as something of a test for Candida. But a test of what I don't know. Mrs J's poetry and the unintelligible CD - are these riddles for Candida to unravel in order to get the message? What message?

Does Candida need to retrace Aeneas' steps in order to lay some ghost or other about her 'poor dead father' who lies 'face down in a drawer' Does she feel she too can cross the Styx, find him and thereby know her destiny. I do feel there is a lot about fate and destiny in this book.

Have begun reading Book VI,The Aeneid It took me a little while but then the cadences started to work their magic and I am lost in another world. I may not understand it completely but I love it. It must be 30 years since I've held it in my hand. (Ginny, I keep telling you I don't have time for this!) I expect I'll go back and start from the beginning...

Loved reading about your homes, I guess they really do say lots about one. I'll come back after dinner and tell you about my favourite room'

I live in a townhouse. Have moved around so much that I have no piece of furniture that you could call an heirloom. Mostly screw together table for TV, CD/Tape/Radio player. Like shades of brown and greens -- taken from a Utrillo print I bought in the U of Wisc book store about 50 years ago!!! My mother had it framed and it has traveled everywhere with me. Very large west facing windows with view of White Mountain. I am in Rock Springs, WY and live at about 5500 ft. Lots of bookcases with books I intend to read, CDs, DVDs and old VHS movies (about 1000).

I live in a townhouse on a lake in the middle of Florida. We are the end unit and have three floors. Very small development on a very large lake.. Concealed garages on the bottom floor which is built into a hill. Street side you enter on the second floor.. I have a lot of antiques for the bedrooms and way too much china, crystal,silver, etc. Inheriting from my Mother and grandmother and then my husband inherited all from his Mother and grandmother..I have been working on the weed it out for the past five years. About once a year I have a come and get it for our two sons and then the remains are donated to Habitat for sale.. I caught this with Ellen. Why would someone be afraid of the telephone.. Very odd indeed.. But then throwing a perfectly good ring into the pool strikes me as truly remarkably stupid. If she did not want it, donate it to charity or something. I am also gettin really stupid about what is on with her and the prisoner.. More and more amazing.. I cannot imagine that this Italian trip could possibly supply her with whatever she imagines she wants.

We live in an apartment. Our apartment is small. I think it's large. I tire very easily. There is a living room, dining room, two bedrooms and two bathrooms with one area for the tub and shower. In my living room is a large patio window. I can see trees and behind the trees is a creek. This window is Boots' most favorite place in the whole house, I think. She has other favorite places as well. There is an entertainment center, a lazy boy, coffee table and two intables. On the intables are photos and huge lamps of white pearls which I love. Even if they are retro I love those lamps. On all surfaces are photos of my grandchildren and the baby photos of my sons. On top of the entertainment center are the colored glass bottles, green, red, blue, green, yellow, etc. I love colored glass. In the living room are houseplants. Of course the telephone. Oh, and my stuffed bears and one doll named Trudi. She was especially made for me by a friend. On Mother's Day, a friend gave me a quilted wall hanging. It's a pineapple quilt design, very pretty and made by my friend's hands. I love handmade items. There is a large picture of roses above the couch. Nearby is a shadow box. In the shadow box are miniature flowers in planters. On the opposite wall is a frame full of photos of my family arranged in a collage. My son arranged the photos. There is a small mirror on that same wall. Oh, the love of my life is The Grandfather's Clock. Near the wallhanging is a wooden plague with a copper, I guess, 3D design of two bears climbing a tree. I bought this from a yardsale. I just loved it for some reason. There is also a lazy boy in the corner near the window. This is where I sit to read in the daytime. At night, I like to read sitting on the couch. Beside the china closet in the dining room is my computer. My apartment is very crowded because the rooms are small. Everything is on one level. There are also two clocks made like attached picture frames beside the clocks are a poem for dad and for mom from my youngest son. After writing all this I feel a need to weed like Stephanie, maybe next year, not now.

Ginny, I feel very uncomfortable with my name in the header three times. I do not have the need to be recognized. Well, it's nice sometime. You do have a way of making the most unimportant person feel necessary and important. I think that is one of your many gifts as a Discussion Leader.

Hi Emmabarb, I am enjoying your posts along with the other ones.

I'll be darned if I can find the copy of this book I used for the previous discussion of it. I think it's in a bookcase behind the behemoth of a recliner my neighbor, who's always selling things or giving them away, gave to me. Maybe tomorrow when the aide for the Office on Aging comes to wash my hair and do a little housework, she'll move the thing, so I can look and see.

Having faithfully read the posts in this discussion, I can truthfully say that Candida exasperates me as much this time as she did when I first read the book. She's just plain too interested in ME, ME, ME; I don't care what her previous circumstances were. Hundreds, if not thousands, of women go through what she has.

Maybe that's what she needs to find out; that she's in no way unique despite her leanings toward the classics. Even living in an undesirable neighborhood is selfish, I think. To me it says, "Look at me. See how I suffer!"

Balzac! That's my favorite non-cursing curse word. It sounds so right. Just as "Bitter Vetch" sounds so right to me for the place I fall into when I have a dark mood, which thank goodness isn't often.

You'd love my living space. Truly you would. I live in a subsidized 1 bedroom apartment in a building that's made to look like Olde English townhouses. The floor I'm on is full of seniors, mostly women, who compare symptoms and pay far too much attention to two old biddies who will eagerly tell you THE RULES OF THE PLACE, if you let them. I wish I lived closer to the kids in this building. They're much more fun.

My apartment has 500 square feet. There's a living room in which every surface is covered with books or other reading material, even the yellow divan I inherited from Ann-down-the-hall, who died at age 90.

The focal point of the room is my very cluttered computer table where I and my motorized wheelchair spend a great deal of time. Above it are an oil on canvas painting I did from memory of my mother, since I didn't have a picture of her. (She died 67 years ago.) In it she is seated at a small table with a window at her left. The view through that window is of a rundown old white tenement building; the time is the Great Depression. Behind her is a small sink with old-fashioned faucets, typical of a cold water flat.

Next to this painting is an opaque water color I did of my old Yankee mentor, who wouldn't let me indulge in what Candida does, after my marriage ended. Both of these paintings are done in dark brick red, golds and oranges with a touch of dirty white as relief.

There are other paintings, including a portrait of me done by a Florida artist friend of mine, who studied in Florence, Italy on the GI Bill. There are some baskets on the walls along with garlands of holly and other bouquets. My garret is in Bohemia!

There are two tall windows in this room. On the windowsill beneath them is my jungle -- a collection of plants, including a tomato plant that actually produces very sweet fruit.

Besides aome of the pottery I have collected, there is a slew of small stuffed animals, thanks to an interactive Canadian website called Webkinz. Buy a Webkinz pet and you receive a code which allows you to build a room for each pet. I have 20 pets by now and a Cyberspace house for them with close to 30 rooms. With Webkinz, it is possible for me to meet my daughter, daughter-in-law and both granddaughters online through their pets. We have a great deal of fun doing this. Webkinz teaches children responsibility because they must take care of their pets, feed them regularly, dress them, put them to bed, etc.

I also use my computer to write books; have had two published.

Writing this post makes me realize that Candida's problem arises because she doesn't have a computer. If she did, she'd never have time for self-indulgence and diary writing. By the way, is the writing in a diary or journal the same as "in vino veritas"?

Mal

hats,"Oh, the love of my life is The Grandfather's Clock."

hats. Oh dear me you just brought tears to my eyes reading this. I too share the love of my Grandfather clock.

My mother passed away in 1990 and she left us seven children with some inheritance. I was a bit shy to spend it for feeling shame of being extravagant. I gave a lot of thought as to how I wanted to spend any of this money. I thought about the one thing I did that irritated her was I was always late to visit her.(In my own defense I did have three small children to gather up and pack up for the half hour drive and day long visit.) So I decided to buy the beautiful Grandfather clock to remind me of being on time and the tick tock and beautiful music it plays on the quarter, half and hour reminds me of the beauty of my Mother. I had an engraved gold plaque placed on it that says, "In Loving Memory Annabelle Patterfritz March 16, 1926 - March 22,1990.

hats, don't be uncomfortable about acknowledgment in the headers, you are a great contributor to this discussion as in all the discussions I have had the pleasure of being in with you.

Welcome Malryn, I am so amused with your candor. I love your word "Balzac". I must remember that when I feel the need to curse. You sound absolutely delightful. I do love your living space as you describe it and I love your personality too. What would any of us do without our computers? It is so the way to entertain, communicate, educate and relax in today's world. I saw the Webkenz in a quaint shop when I was away this past week end. They are adorable. Thank you for informing what they signify and teach children, someone came up with a wonderful idea. So you are a writer too, can you share the two books you have published for my curiosity's sake? I think I would enjoy your books as much as I have enjoyed this post.

Mal are you our Margaret Drabble or Candida in disguise? I say this with humor, respect and fondness, you have tickled me beyond expectations.

Actually if I am not mistaken, Candida has a lap top and is using it for her entries and playing solitaire on line. But yes, I agree maybe if she used it in other ways besides solitude and self indulgence she would not be as depressed. Okay, you got me here, what is "vino veritas"?

Mal, don't you go anywhere, I truly loved your post you made my day, and YES, many women have gone through as much if not more, so why does she carry on the way she does? lolo, Let's continue and see what she is up to now that she has money and is planning her trip to Italy.

Bellamarie, I am so glad you thought of this exercise, sharing our rooms with one another. I have enjoyed it too. By the way, I agree with Ginny. You should write. Your entry about your trip is just wonderfully descriptive.

I think your mother would feel loved very much. I love the plaque on your Grandfather clock.

" I had an engraved gold plaque placed on it that says, "In Loving Memory Annabelle Patterfritz March 16, 1926 - March 22,1990."(Bellamarie) Talking about tears, I have tears in my eyes after reading about the clock and your mother. Thank you for sharing your story.

Remember that program, "This is Your Life?" I feel like we are doing the same thing here.

I Love this remark in your post.

"Writing this post makes me realize that Candida's problem arises because she doesn't have a computer." (Mal)

I just visited Google Images using the keywords Ladbroke Grove. Interesting photographs popped up, including ones of Ladbroke Grove in the rain.

Another photo site that's easy to search is http://www.flickr.com/. I think you need a Yahoo registration (or something similar). The photographs are organized by keyword, and you can be very specific. There are hundreds.

I got a much better sense of Candida's neighborhood from the photos. And I'll try some other search terms from the book when I get home.

EmmaBarb, I am so sorry to hear of your sad news. Seems a shame someone so young, life seeming perfect and a wife should die so suddenly. I can only imagine what a shock it was for you and it would be normal to think of it so recent. My thoughts are with you.

Yesterday I met Mrs. Barclay and the French-speaking man.

Mrs. Barclay certainly married well! She "sailed into the calm rich harbour of Mr. Barclay's protection." p. 119

This seemed to be a fairly straightforward passage.

It is followed by a rather confusing diary entry. pp.122-125

Although Candida is acknowledged by the man in the Eurogrocies Minimarket, she does a Dido-in-the-Underworld action and shuns him. I thought she longed for respect and would have enjoyed being singled out.

Then she is fascinated by both the illusive ghost orchid and the common mistletoe. This writing ends with "These strange plants are plants, and no plants, and they live between the species. They are life, and they are death. I neither live nor die." p.125

She is, indeed, "a lost soul." p.9

Why am I getting such a clear picture of Candida in the Mrs. Barclay diary entry? And then sent back-to-Go-do-not-collect-$200 in the following diary entry? Hmmm....

Ginny -- Simone Weil was a French philosopher, who sympathized with worker's rights. When Candida taught Weil's writings during a substituting assignment at an affluent private school, I am sure Andrew raised his eyebrows. Candida was definitely going against the flow. She didn't belong in that setting and shouldn't have married that man.

Bare apartment walls? She is a lost soul.

Dandy

Now that is lonely to become friends with a rat. Why not a bird.dog, cat etc.?

Now that is lonely to become friends with a rat. Why not a bird.dog, cat etc.? Candida must have led a very sheltered life not to have understood some the bill boards.

I am not a gambler but spent a dollar on a mega million ticket and lost, but have two to go the Hoosier lotto with numbers--03-09-15-21-31- 45 and the powerball game numbers 09-15-21-31-45 PB-03 both will be drawn tonight.

My home has a six car garage (thee in front and three in back) because my father was in construction and was a steepejack, his linage goes back to England. I have seen the steeples in England and understand why it was in his blood to be a steeplejack. I finished cleaning the inside of garage just recently (Dads, Mom. my sister and my things, What a job!!!.

Oh! back to the homestead, I have a circle drive bordered with Irishes (the American orchid)

. Had beautiful pine trees planted fifty years ago brought from Moms folks homestead planted here till the tornado came through and took them all so now have a few large silver maples left.

Yesterday had an electician put new wire from house to garage or could have lost both (just noticed the insulation off wire Sunday).

Last month got a slip from the doctor to have my mailbox brought up to the back door, (it is a federal law that with a doctors slip it must be allowed)

Have had the floors in both bedrooms, living room and kitchen redone recently Now for the painting of the whole inside of my part of the house. Oh! I have had the apartment (bedroom, bath and kitchen) that has been done recently but won't advertise but ready to rent when I am ready

.

I have a jacuzzi bath tub in my bathroom with light green carpet, walls to be painted light geen like the carpet as the cuboards are a light pine I think. Kitchen all white with light blue ceiling and light blue wallpaper on one wall to be redone. Kitchen cuboards along one long wall with two pullout bins for flour and one for sugar that was very usefull when we canned. baked en al.

The bedroom I am in now is just across the hall from the bathroom. I has my computer in it. Two origial 9x12 paintings one of the rough sea in a storm by Claude Terray and the other same size of dunes on calm water by Antonio. Wall light yellow. In living room one book shelf with reference books one corner book shelf both full of books, walls and carpet light green and the spare room has another book shelf. Walls light lavendar. Now do you know me?

Ginger, I didn't understand the "rat" part at all. It seemed so weird I put it out of my mind. I didn't remember it until just now.

Ginger, that sounds like pretty fine digs for a nice lady like you.

Hats, Rats gives me the shirvers.

Thanks Hats I inherited it fron my mother we had our wills to leave all to each other. I took care of mom in her home for two years 24/7 so sold my house as I was told that a house detrates (sp) faster when no one lives in it but before I recieved the money for it she past away. We moved into this house in 1946.

Got alot in common eh!

When Candida had to introduce Sally and Julia, I realized that Sally was a Suffolk person. I need to catch up, but I'm still thinking those two represent lifestyles she avoided and still found sadness.

The current mystery (for me) is whether the elegant Anais and Mr. Barclay are drug dealers . . . or what else could they have in common. They could deal in stolen treasures of some kind? He reminds me of the overbred and untrustworthy male character in Henry James "Portrait of a Lady."

Maybe you've all solved their mystery by now. (I've been shining up my kitchen for the appearance of an appliance repairman who'll replace a range burner--the highlight of our week.)

Welcome Malryn!!! I'm battling lightning strikes, much to say about all the questions raised here, so many thoughts, so many POINTS you've raised!!! So little time between crashes, but am rushing in to SAY that I did it!

I bought a SC PowerBall Lottery ticket today with "our" numbers, I made the PowerBall number 3, one of Drabble's 6, and the other numbers exactly as Drabble put them. She asked if I wanted double something and I said yes, so it cost me a big $2.00 and when I win I'll send each of you some of it, we'll all share, what will you do with your little bit? I've got big plans for it, it['s only 54 million tho but I think I can manage.

I told her it was a joke, wouldn't it be a HOOT if it won? hahahaa

Cross your fingers, the winning number is not up yet, sound off on some of the fantastic questions raised here by all, it's quite a puzzlement, this section. Married to the blue water.

I'll be back when I can....a lot richer, I am sure, she and I share this belief and philosophy.

I've thought her walls are bare because she doesn't know who she is yet. She has to redefine herself. I guess retracing Aeneas' voyage with which she identifies will help her reach her goal of self-definition.

colkot Your house--lots of character--sounds like the Chicago house in the movie (?) with Anthony Hopkins and Gwyneth Paltrow. They are father and daughter math whizzes, teacher and student at the University of Chicago. She plays a young woman on a quest to learn who SHE is. And she has finally to ignore the limitations others want to place on her.

The prisoner--maybe it's because he is who he is. And Andrew wasn't.

Mal--What would we do without all of these books and stories about whining, desperate women? I think they help us share and to to be brave. We don't usually get to say these things to each other. And Candida is pretty busy rebuilding a life--The Aeneid class, the Health Club, greeting people. And later the trip.

In vino veritas: In wine there is truth. (Meaning that drink loosens the tongue.) But Candida doesn't always seem truthful. Or maybe she's trying out variations on the truth.

I haven't finished the book yet, but my theme vote is for loss and regeneration. (Similar to what others have said.) Will she rise phoenix-like from the ashes of her past. I hope she will!

Ginny--I have a feeling we won that lottery. Maybe I'm a seer like Mrs Jerrold. That would be a sign, like C's inheritance. I'll take $1,000 for a ticket to London!

Ginny, You and I will share if those numbers win because I did the same numbers yesterday also and waiting for the results. See you on the winning ticket girl!!!

wow, barbara. i think you hit on something important when you said, "or maybe she's trying out variations on the truth." that really seems to describe what candida has been doing.

also like your idea about a theme of loss and regeneration. for me, the theme is about journeys: from suffolk to london, from country to city, from marriage to being single, from being alone to assembling a group of "sisters." her journey to italy looks to be a highpoint. she seems fascinated by the journey of aeneus. you'd think her interest would center on poor dido, another betrayed woman, but her focus remains on the journey and what he discovers rather than the characters.

on a completely unrelated note, i am a newbie with computers. sometimes my posts come out in italics and i have no idea why. i chronically push buttons i didn't mean to push, so i guess that's what's going on here. who knows.

ssthor...

the reason your posts sometimes change to italics is because you begin a sentence with a lower case i . That i is read by the software as a code for italics.

That's why, in your above post the word i is not present in this:

also like your idea about a theme of loss and regeneration. for me, the theme is about journeys: from suffolk to london, from country to city, from marriage to being single

The i ( in front of also...) was read as a tag meaning italics wanted.

You can avoid that by using uppercase for I or beginning a sentence with another word if you prefer all lowercase.

jane

Book I of The Aeneid deals in part with Aeneas' meeting with Dido. I really wanted to know how they met and how or why she fell so in love with him. I understand that is was due to Venus's intervention. Then I was confused as to why Venus intervened. A friend of mine in another book club sent me this answer which also kind of summarizes Book I and might be helpful to others:

"Lizabeth, I took a quick look at Book 1. Indisputably the most significant historical events of the Roman Republic were the three Punic Wars and Scipio’s eventual defeat of the Carthaginians. Virgil is writing the national epic poem of Rome so he needs to account for the conflict with Carthage. While these events to Virgil are historical, to Aeneas they’re prophesies. Virgil consistently asserts it was Rome’s destiny to dominate the known world. But its ability to do that depended on the defeat of Carthage. So he starts his poem with an account of the supernatural interference in the initial relations between the two nationalities.

Greek gods do not have the attributes of the Judeo-Christian God. The former depend on prophesies for understanding future events. Those prophesies are usually worded ambiguously permitting multiple interpretations. When after seven years Aeneas and the fleeing Trojans survive the storm caused by Juno and Aeolus but calmed by Neptune, Venus wants to assure a comfortable reception of her son by Dido and the Carthaginians. She decides the best way is to cast a spell on Dido causing her to fall in love with Aeneas. She does this by substituting Cupid for Aeneas’ son, Ascanius, to deliver from the Trojans’ ships the gifts for Dido.

When Venus, in disguise, predicts to Aeneas and Achates a friendly, favorable reception by the Carthaginians this becomes a more important objective to her than the far-off founding of Rome about 500 years later. Remember, Aeneas didn’t found Rome. He founded Latium in central Italy. It was Aeneas’ descendants, Romulus and Remus, who founded Rome. This is foretold as one of a series of predictions Jupiter makes to calm Venus when she complains bitterly about his permitting Aeneas to be treated so badly by Juno. Jupiter isn’t dumb, he knows better than to take on his wife. So he assures Venus and, in addition, sends Mercury to Carthage to insure a positive welcome in Carthage for Aeneas.

Lizabeth, I think your summary of the gods’ behavior is right. They consistently exhibit human faults. Among those are the lack of priority for consideration of long-term consequences, the constant bickering among themselves causing severe problems for the human heroes, and making mistakes resulting in unintended issues. Venus’ priority in Book I is Aeneas’ comfort. She shows little concern for long-term consequences. Had she done so, Virgil would have had to find another way of explaining the monumental conflict of almost a millennium later."

I knew of course when Dido fell in love with Aeneas that this would cause problems because I knew he would have to leave at some point. But he did not woo Dido into loving him. It was Venus who created the situation.

(lines 927 on) But Venus, anxious for her Son's Affairs,<> New Council tryes; and new Designs prepares:<> That Cupid should assume the Shape and Face Of sweet Ascanius, and the sprightly grace:<> Shou'd bring Presents in her Nephew's stead,<> And in Eliza's Veins the gentle Poison shed.<>

Eliza is Dido and the poison is to make her fall in love with Aeneas. Why am I dwelling on this? Because I thought Aeneas was a bad guy, Uses Dido and then leaves her. But I am not so sure now. I want to read the part where he leaves her. Was that another god's intervention that caused their parting? I think all this is important in understanding Book VI. If not, I love reading all this anyway.

With apologies to Lizabeth and her literary questions... You have made some serious inquiries. The following is strictly plot play time.

Ladies!

For shame..hang your heads, hunch your shoulders.

You are reading in advance of me, and not a one of you prepared me for...

Dentist McDreamy (pp. 135-138)

Be still, my heart.

Let's dis on Dentist McDreamy.

Why did Drabble hide the hunk in a basement?

Does your dentist made you remember an old sexual fantasy? Or are you like me and want to get out of the chair and run home ASAP?

Dandy

Just the smell of the dental surgery makes me feel faint! There must be a universal fear of the dentist some primeval fear about our teeth because I know few people who do not dislike or actively fear their dental appointments.

Carolyn

The description of the dreamy dentist:

"He has a delicate, finely drawn face, girlish but not effeminate...His skin is very pale, as though he lives too much away from the natural light. He is bathed in a bright white neon glow. His hair curls, gently, and his lips curve, gently."

Now to the Aeneid:

"His mother Goddess, with her hands Divine,

Had form'd his Curling locks, and made his Temples shine:

And giv'n his rowling Eyes a sparkling grace;

And breath'd a youthful vigour on his Face:

Like polish'd Iv'ry, beauteous to behold,"

The description of Aeneas when first Dido saw him as the cloud he was hidden in disappeared.

I brought my book to the library today to renew it and I couldn't because there's a waiting list...can you imagine a waiting list for Seven Sisters. I think they made that up. Except for one or maybe two other people, no one sees this book as I do. I guess I don't read enough fiction to understand it but I did love the book and Candida.

Stephanie...I wondered why she needed so many people to travel with her to Italy also, but I guess hence comes the name of the book, "The Seven Sisters." Funny how in the beginning I thought it was about seven siblings and as the definition I posted much early said, sister could be a soreity, or a group of females with something in common. Alas the Seven Sisters are all traveling to Italy.

Barbara656...You are correct, I did take Candida's word for something. Hmmmmm how did I get tricked into that? I thought I was being very careful.

Ginny...Thank you for your kind words, you are such a wonderful discussion leader. You do have a way of acknowledging each person making them feel important. I anticipate your posts daily. You are a beacon of light in the darkness. As you asked, "Who is YOU??" When I read that on pg. 126 it threw me off, I wondered who is she talking to here. In all my journals the first thing I do is enter the day, date and year, so is this a diary or journal? We are all assuming it is. I am still a bit confused and YES upset that Drabble out of no where has Candida come into all this money ($237,000 wow thanks for that info). The sudden change in Candida's whole personality since the money has bothered me.

I'm tending to stick by my first instincts and wonder if this is a multiple personality disorder. Who's to say all seven of the people are not in one body? I know its far out there but then again this whole book is a bit on the crazy side. She displays many symptoms of mental disorders, the ocd behavior of checking the door 10 times, the need for cleanliness and order, control issues, paranoia, low self esteem, unable to care and connect to others on an emotional level and the dis association from her children. Like I said the seven sisters could be her alters.

I am sensing the Golden Bough is Death and once you grab it you pass over into the after life. I sense the multiple personalities may all join together to become one and possibly Candida will drown herself in Lake Avernus. I just don't see her returning and living beyond this trip. pg. 161 "If I get back." I'm still seeing the book cover as a ghost under the umbrella. Like Aeneas was reincarnated I'm still thinking about this for Candida. Could Candida be Aeneas's reincarnation? That would explain her need to retrace his journey and her obsession with him. Did Aeneas have a mental illness or alters?

Colkot...Welcome back, Harry Potter can wait we need you here.

Hats...Thank you for your kind words of encouragement.

gumtree...I love your thoughts on Mrs. Jerrold being the Sibyl. I too see the umbrella, poetry and cds as clues. Can't wait to begin this journey with the seven sisters.

No one told you there was a waiting list?? What an OUTRAGE. I guess if you made a scene they'd put you on their crazy list. I certainly would've complained and frowned a little.

But it probably wouldn't have occurred to me at the time to say, "I believe my friend is on that list, since I recommended the book. Could I just take a peek ?'

Lizabeth--Thank you for the striking comparison between the "divine" (a tipoff) dentist and Aeneas. Who would a thunk it. It never entered my mind.

Well, I'm casting Viggo Mortenson--poet, artist, jazz musician, actor, etc.

It bothered me that Mrs Jerrold pictured C facedown in the water. But she is a swimmer. (Do I detect a survival metaphor here? Hope so.)

I am reading The Waterfall in conjunction with Seven Sisters and I am beginning to think that Drabble is intimately familiar with mental disorders and with infidelity. I suggest you all read "The Waterfall" if you can after this book. I don't think anyone could write the book if they had not experienced the emotions that are expressed by the narrator. In the waterfall she writes both in the first and the third person about the same character. She is both a participator and an onlooker. Similar to the way she has written The Seven sisters. Drowning is also mentioned several times in The Waterfall.

Carolyn, you sure have my curiosity going. When I get to the library, I will look for The Waterfall. Didn't you read the Exmoor Witch too? I think that's the title. I remember your posts. Water again just like in this book.

hats ~ I enjoy all the discussions I've been in where Ginny is the leader !

BellaMarie726 ~ thank you so much for your concern. I've yet to hear the whole story of what the tragic end was due to.

I'm not going to tell you about my tall, handsome, wavy-hair, bed-side mannered gynecologist I've had for thirty years

The travel group of "Seven Sisters":
Candida Wilton
Cynthia Barclay
Anais Al-Sayyab
Mrs Ida Jerrold
Julia Jordan
Sally Hepburn
Valerie (the minibus driver)
I was just trying to see if I could get up a list of six friends (excluding family) that would travel with me. They're all too busy and though we're good friends we all have different interests. We could never agree on one particular place to visit. When I was younger I belonged to a ski group and knew everyone. We always had so much fun taking ski vacations together. Before and after we used to have the group to our house for a fabulous party. I've lost track of all those people. Maybe I keep my friends now because we have different interests....hmmmm...never thought about that before. I have some really good friends I met thru where I used to work but that's different also. One in particular I've been asked to take cruises with but haven't. A retired group I advocate for that I belong to, I know most of them that come to our meetings, and those I serve on the board with, but that's not the same thing. I'm not up physically to travel anymore. Maybe when I win the Lottery and have my own private jet things will be different Oh I have to tell you something about those Lottery #'s that's really weird. I thought I recognized them when I saw them in the book. Three of those #'s are already on my Mega Million subscription...I just renewed for another year. Too late to change the other three. Is that weird or what....
Emma

Emmabarb, I agree. Ginny is great!

EmmaBarb writes: I'm not going to tell you about my tall, handsome, wavy-hair, bed-side mannered gynecologist I've had for thirty years

Gynecologist??!!! Now that is dangerous...(smile)<--- that will have to do until I learn how to use the icons.

Candida looks at the hourglass. The stuck sand reminds her of a stroke. I feel Candida isn't revealing all of herself to us. Maybe she is keeping secret the most important issues in her life. Rereading the second part of the diary I feel there are many facts missing. We know about Candida's past. Now we are beginning to learn about her future. Do we know all about her present? Is she just telling ordinary thoughts, ones about the dentist, a crown roast, the choice of an umbrella? Is she deceiving us, the reader? The hourglass is a reminder that she is an aging woman. What about her health? Why would an hourglass make her think of a stroke?

The squeaky tape reminds Candida of "the squeaking souls of the dead in the Underworld." That Virgil class really made an impact on Candida's mind. I am thinking The Aeneid is a very dreary narrative. Without having read The Aeneid, I am afraid it's impossible for me to completely understand Candida's thought processes.

Thank you all! A book discussion depends for its life's breath on each contribution and I must say you really are ALL doing an incredible job, an amazing discussion. I feel closer to the meaning of this thing than I ever have and I'm seeing new things: second time will be the charm!

Now where IS everybody? I know you're not off spending the Lottery millions (hahaha Ginger!!) because nobody won. Fie on those numbers, the Sibyl would have told us that they were cursed! Hahahaa

The first time I ever bought a lottery ticket, and I've only bought one before this, you'd have thought I was smuggling plutonium or something, the clerk almost despaired, well who KNEW there was something to it? Hahahaha Yesterday was a piece of cake, but don't ask the 10000 people behind me in line.

So much for that, and I had the winnings all planned out, too.

Annie, I hope you can get the book back but you do make an important point about FICTION.

This IS a work of fiction, which means, literary criticism wise, that the author has made up the character, her life, where she's going, and what happens to her. She is not real. There will be a plot, it will rise to a climax and fall to a denouement, and that's what fiction IS.

She's put JUST enough in this to make a connection with our readers. Many of us are over 50. Probably all of us root for her making a new start or would like to feel we could, too. Many of the things she says we've secretely thought, that's Drabble being clever. We feel we know her from the things SAID, most of you feel empathy for her in the first section, but unfortunately Drabble is having her also sprinkling other hints, quite strong ones, that things are not quite what they seem.

For instance:

Candida ADMITS she is lying about some of the things the characters have said.

Which characters? Which speeches? Did Mrs. Jerrold say to her you won't run away again? Did the girl with the lipoma say anything to her? Did anybody suggest after 3 years that they actually go to Cumae TOGETHER? Did Julia say do those places really exist let's go? I thought Candida's "OK then" was way way WAY out of character and wondered about it at the time.

How are we supposed to know who said the truth and who did not? SHE SAYS she lied about the conversations, some of them

Candida admits she's writing fiction.

She's writing fiction, too. And in FICTION the only thing you HAVE to go on is what's said. Those are the only clues, the ONLY ones.

The first rule of thumb of any "literary criticism" is: if you make a point on your thoughts on the character, you have to be able to back your points up with the text.

In other words I can passionately espouse the cause that Candida has a split personality or she has been abused as a child, but UNLESS and UNTIL I can produce the evidence in the form of TEXT from the book, my conclusions are not substantiated. I can keep saying I KNOW she was abused as a child, I can SEE it, I KNOW it, but UNLESS the author gives us text that PROVES it, then it's not so, every time we go off on a tangent we can't prove, we're writing our own book. Not the one in front of us.

And that's a problem reading fiction, you tie INTO the emotions expressed which you can relate to, and then we, like the good friends we have become, slip OVER the truth which the author also presents as little aberrations. There are a LOT of aberrations in this section, lots of hints, some very heavy handed, which you have caught. The problem is they are NEVER explained, even at the end. She's saying something with THEM, too. What, I wonder?

Married to the blue water? YOU will remember it rained?? I admit to making up speeches of those I quote?

And on and on? What ELSE is CANDIDA making up?

Why is Drabble doing this?

Hats, I personally think the quote about the squeaky tape reminds Candida of "the squeaking souls of the dead in the Underworld," is not true and is being used by either Candida or Drabble to call our attention (yet again) to Jane's death and the dead souls of the Underworld of Aeneas. Yet again as if we did not get the point (I don't think I do, actually).

I think in that she, (Drabble? Candida?) is deliberately making two comparisons to the strange sounds on the squeaky tape, which you or I would think needed rewinding or something, to Jane's death and to the death/ Underworld of Aeneas.

Why do I think that? Because SHE was not underwater with Jane (was she?) and so …could not imagine how Jane sounded when she died, unless she drowned her, herself, which I suppose is possible for being pregnant with Andrew's child but I don't see anything at all so far that backs THAT up,. (maybe this IS Christine's murder mystery, after all? Olle also said he thought it was a mystery)….All I see I can quote so far is excessive stuff about water and wading out to her knees and stuff about the Underworld.

Does our Candida have a healthy imagination? (Or unhealthy?)

She also has not been to the Underworld and has not heard the squeaking souls of the Underworld who, being shades, or ghosts, were imagined by Vergil to have only have a small vestige of sound left, so squeaking tapes can't "remind" her of them. You don't need to read the Aeneid, she cheerfully quotes passage and verse for that purpose:

She identifies Book VI and then she quotes the Latin you asked about earlier:

Then, there is another phrase. Pars tollere vocem exiguam: inceptus clamor frustratur hiantis [ I have seen this as hiantēs, also] (121)

This means, roughly,

Part of them (some of the Shades) attempt to raise a meager voice, the beginning shout disappoints their gaping (mouths...).

Or as was quoted here:

(p.120) 490-94 in the Sixth Book of Aeneid

"they rais'd a feeble cry,
with trembling notes;
But the weak voice deceived
their gasping throats"

I guess that's Dryden's translation because of the rhyme? I may need to read Dryden, very nice, very difficult passage, heavily noted as having many variations.

She does not know how it sounds when Jane died, she was not there, she can only imagine. She does not know how a ghost squeaks, she can only imagine. WHY she keeps bringing these things up at every opportunity is also a mystery, I don't know! Do you all??

She appears to be trying to convince somebody of something or hint at something to SOMEBODY, but WHO?

Ginny, Well nothing ventured, nothing gained eh!

.

Well I am going out to porch and read some more as I am only on page 100 and see all are still way ahead. BBL.

BellaMarie, I liked your thought on her buddies being "aspects of what she might have been." That's interesting and puts a whole new slant on it.

Lizabeth, another excellent point: IF I GET BACK from the trip. I think that every time I go but I don't go around talking about the far shore and drowning and wading in ponds and thinking I'm dead (twice) etc.

I think your apartment sounds to DIE for, lucky lucky LUCKY you!

Emma, sorry to hear about the waiter, golly.

I guess I also hoped Candida would manage on her own without the deus ex machina, the windfall coming from the sky to save her. I hate books where the heroine starts OUT all bold and trying to make it only to succumb to a man at the end, here we have no man but a huge chunk of money, or so it is to me.

The 440-449 is lines in the Aeneid not pages, you always speak of lines in Latin. It's quite confusing.

Good point on her bare walls: it's a temporary sojourn!

I wonder how long she has really been there and why she can't look her dead father in the eye even in a photo.

Colkot, Carolyn, Kidsal, Malryn, Ginger, Stephanie, Hats, and EVERYBODY, I love hearing about the different environs in which you live!

Hats, I condensed your name and great themes! There are SO many themes!!

Malryn, I hope you find the book, I am finding this time around it's really electric due to the posters here.

BellaMarie a wonderful grandfather clock story, I am so enjoying finding out more about all of our posters!

Christine, thank you for the great photo of LadbrOke Grove, at least we see it has one O, in the rain. I like that. I want to put a couple of those up. Here's one, there was a water main broken and here's one of

Ladbroke Grove in the rain. It LOOKS like any other region of a big city to me, actually looks quite colorful, what do the rest of you think? I don't have a google password. I'll put some links in the heading, thank you.

Dandy, and what do you make of the man in the 7/11 addressing her in French?

Madame, pensez-vous souvent au passé?

My French is quite pitiful but I think that means Madame, do you think often of the past?

She answers Oui, de tremps en temps meaning Yes from time to time.

He says Madame, j'ai cinquante-neuf ans."

And so on, which means I am 59 years old. She smiles tells him her age and moves on.

What's significant about that?

She seems to compare this with the ghost orchid, her own ghostly blooming, and she saw "his ghostly spirit" in the flower.

This woman is in trouble.

Dandy but what about the DIRTY Weil? Thank you for that biography where's the beef…(er…dirt?)

MORE...

Ginger, friends with a RAT, I missed that!!!! Why, indeed, this is getting spookier than a haunted house, very odd.

Barbara, I also pondered over Mr. Barclay and Anais knowing each other in some way. I also thought drugs. Or maybe smuggled antiquities? Thank you for the themes of loss and regeneration in the heading, what a book!

If I had won, $1,000 was exactly what I planned to give us all! Hahahaa

I agree with ssthor, "variations of the truth!" Now WHY would she do that, Guys??

Thank you Lizabeth for your friend's neat summary, she sounds most knowledgeable, please invite her into our book discussions!! I think the Aeneid is a little more complex than she's had time to write about and so I've copied this for us from the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature, I think it explains quite a lot about the poem itself, if not the particular events in Book I, it's clear it's quite complex: I apologize for the poor copy here but if you all can get a copy to lend of the Oxford Companion of Classical Literature, the Aeneid section will blow you away.

On the complexity, religion and themes of the Aeneid

NB: This is quite a large image. It should fill your screen. If it appears small, point your cursor over it. If an orange box appears in the bottom right hand corner, click on it and the image will enlarge. That's true for all the script here.

On the background of why the Aeneid was written

Short continuing the background

And what an interesting thing on the DENTIST! The most hated profession in America. In the basement of the underworld (if she can do it so can I) hahahaa OH EXCELLENT comparison Lizabeth, your reading has really paid off. I must get a Dryden! It's obvious Drabble prefers his take on it.

Ok BellaMarie is going back to multiple personality disorder, how are the rest of you making sense out of this? Oh a GHOST under the umbrella on the cover? (Doesn't that ghost orchid stink or am I mixing it up with another)?

I sense Candida drawn to the water to drown herself, too. I don't think Aeneas had a mental illness, he was an epic hero to the Greeks and Romans who liked to trace their beginnings back to him BECAUSE his mother was a goddess, Venus. He became, through his son Iulus the ancestopr of the gens Julia and founder of Alba Longa (and ultimately of Rome). THAT'S why the ancient Romans and Augustus venerated him. Julius Caesar of course claimed to be a descendent.

Why does she think Mrs. Jerold is the Sibyl?

Why does she picture her face down in the water as Barbara mentioned? Dead? Swimming at 83?

Carolyn good on you for the Waterfall. If I get thru this one this time I think it's my dead last Drabble, is it full of these crazy things, too? GOOD point on the shifting voices in that book tho, the switch between narrators, good one!

Good list, Emma of the travelers, they are 7. I think it would be quite difficult in real life to find 6 fellow travelers. For heaven's sake on your MegaMillion subscription numbers, EERIE…doo de doo odoo. Maybe next times' the charm!

Not one of you with not one picture or book tho?

Gum,. Another great question, WHY is Ellen "afraid" of the phone? Now that really is a stretch, do you all believe that one?

Hahaha Gum, whose translation are you reading, I think I need it instead of the one I have, must be the Dryden?

That reminds me, WHICH of all the mysteries here today, is the one most bothering YOU and which one do you think out of the Pandora's box she keeps opening is the most important?

The Delphic Sibyl of Michelangelo wants to know.

Thanks for all the Aeneid links. I am going to investigate them later. Just wanted to say that The Aeneid is not a dreary narrative at all and the Dryden translation is flowing and poetic and beautiful.

I have almost completed Book IV and once again, it is through the god's intervention that Aeneas has to leave Dido. She of course feels betrayed and that is where I am right now. I do think she kills herself as a result..Butit was not Aeneas's decision to go. He is told by the gods that he must go and it was an angry former suitor of Dido's that brought the situation to the god's attention.

I am really enjoying reading it and I never would have attempted this if it weren't for Drabble's book and this group so thank you.

And the friend I quoted from another book club is a male, not female and he just posted enough to answer my questions. I think he knows the book quite well and I believe he said that when he was younger he had actually translated parts of it from Latin.I have invited him to join us but he is in too many book clubs right now...

Well, I don't think she's looney, although circumstances hold that threat for her. Unless all her encounters with her friends and others are hallucinations or wishful thinking, people find her quite normal. Don't we all think (occasionally weird) thoughts we don't express?

On the other hand, Carolyn suggests that mental illness is an interest in "The Waterfall." Candida's persistent suggestions that Andrew had an affair with the young girl with unaligned eyes (verified in part two) does seem beyond the pale. He could probably have had his pick of flawless, stable young women. Isn't it enough that he's a cad and an academic con-man of sorts?

Still, feminist writings sometimes deal with the notion that women are overlooked or controlled by being branded as crazy, hysterical, etc.

Drabble certainly enjoys toying with the reader. I can understand those who say, "Enough of this!" Nearing the end, however, another one sounds good to me right now. Kind of like a literary crossword puzzle or some such. But are we filling in the right words?

I am baffled as to why people are having a problem with Candida going on a trip with a few friends who all share an interest in Italy. What's a single woman to do, travel always alone? The trip grew quite naturally--the remnants of the Virgil class with Mrs. Jerrold as their guide. She included her old friends as a courtesy because each of them invited her to travel to Italy with her. This appears to be a modest trip, economy class, rooms in a pensione, ferry across the Mediterranean. After all, if we continue to find parallels with the Aeneid, Aeneas didn't row across the sea in a dinghy all alone, he travelled with trusted companions.

I didn't get at all that Mr. Barkley and Anais knew each other. I thought it was more a case of they "recognized" each other as having something in common. It does sound like something mildly shady, though. Naughty kindred spirits.

Lizabeth, sorry on the "he/ she" issue,

He's welcome too, he'd be in good company, but I see he's busy. I can see he's a great asset anywhere he goes, but so are you! You are reading the Aeneid by Dryden! And your enthusiasm is catching, already in Book IV!!

I said the translations I have are not rhythmic like Gum and you talk about, but rather sort of literal: I must read the Dryden and then it occurred to me, don't I have it? Do I? Could it be in "those" books?

Years ago (golly I just looked at the copyright, 30 years ago), I got those Easton Press books, one at a painful time, do you all know the ones I mean? Huge things, with gilt pages and a marker ribbon, and leather tooled backs in gold, silk end papers, etc., just a BOOK. A beautiful book. I spent MANY years, not on their plan but alone as I could collecting them one at a time, fighting with them when they'd send 10 or so. I wanted to pick them out individually, by title. Then I tried to read them. They are SOOO heavy!! So I have read other versions, paperback ones I can fold back and write in and sooooooo I said to self, I bet you have the Dryden, I just bet you do, and went to look and there was an Aeneid, just gorgeous gilding like a golden crown of Mycenae, and I breathlessly opened the heavy cover and VOILA!! It's Dryden!!!!! Whoop! and his "Translator's Introduction" is one of the most fascinating things I ever read!!! I love it~!!!!

IF we do read the Aeneid in English here on SeniorNet we must all bring our versions, the more the better to compare! Dryden, Fagles, Lombardo, Fairclough, Good and any others. We had one of our SeniorNet Latin classes attempt it IN Latin and they did a pretty fair job of it, especially to be a Latin I class, a year ago, and I am sure before they're through they'll tackle it too but what a JOY!!

OH I am just thrilled. I even took a photo of it to show you all but it won't come out. Hahaah I do remember seeing an Oprah show once and her saying she would not be without those books, they are just gorgeous. But SO heavy. I'll manage. Hahahaa

Whoop!!

I love discovering new things, have never read the Dryden!

Barbara, are we filling in the right words? Oh I hope you all can tell us, definitively. This is a very sharp group, I feel like a dog fetching a bone, I feel like fetching every bone, ball, toy, root, branch, tree, anything and everything I can to bring here so YOU all can explain it because I have no idea.

So I keep fetching and watching and hoping! Hahahaa

Ssthor, I think for ME at least the (and I'm in favor of her going with the others and on a trip, I'm in favor of anything to replace the poor me, people run when I enter the room bit), but ….I'm going to see it hopefully. She keeps contradicting herself, even on the verge of the happy plans.

Page 161: "Let me write this down . I am happy now. I am full of happy anticipation." And then she's right back a paragraph or two later with the "Darkness, dirt, despair." And the drowning again. And she ends with "If I get back." She ends this entire section, Book I with "If I get back." But again that may be pre trip jitters. Or it may be something else.

I am interested in why she gave Andrew her contact number, particularly after what she says about him on page 160, she seems to be making sense, it's very poignant and then she says, "It is simply that I feel the need to redefine what my relationship to my family should be."….He has done me such wrong, that I don't know how to read him, how to speak of him, how to remember him, how to think of him any more. He is like a great blank in my memory. He is like a hold cut in my side."

That's quite passionate. So how is he her "family?"

I wonder why she wouldn't give Ellen or one of her girls her contact number, and why he remains part of her "family," given what she's said. Do you all understand that one?

I keep a reading journal and write about confusing parts until I can make sense of a passage/character. Needless to say, I have more scribbled messes than decisive conclusions in my journal for this novel.

The French-speaking man: Is he making a pathetic pass at Candida? Is he the ghostly reflection of her lost soul? I don't have an answer yet for the inclusion of this incident in the book.

Dirty Weil: Simone Weil was "wedded to filth and lowliness" because she chose to associate with the working class vs. the academic community. Candida says further, "I don't know much about Simone Weil, but I do know something." Cryptic again. Candida, however, has told us that she is ashamed. Something has made her feel filth and lowliness. Candida feels ashamed when she eats her high-priced crown of lamb. Unworthy for this rich experience.

Greatest Mystery: Why would someone lie in her personal journal? Or has Candida been lying since a painful childhood incident with her father? Is lying just a means of survival for Candida?

Dandy

". . . in FICTION the only thing you HAVE to go on is what's said. Those are the only clues, the ONLY ones. The first rule of thumb of any 'literary criticism' is: if you make a point on your thoughts on the character, you have to be able to back your points up with the text."

Ginny, I absolutely agree, those are the rules of the game. And if the author is playing by the rules, this astute group, which is making a LOT of serious efforts, will certainly be able to parse the facts of the narrative and the meaning of the story by the time we’re finished. (I hope so, anyway, for the sake of my sanity, not to mention good humor.) Because we are reading in segments, not all the pieces of the puzzle are on the table yet for discussion. So it’s hard not to speculate, in anticipation.

"Drabble certainly enjoys toying with the reader. I can understand those who say, 'Enough of this!' Nearing the end, however, another one sounds good to me right now. Kind of like a literary crossword puzzle or some such. But are we filling in the right words?"

Barbara: I’m one of the ones who’s said “Enough.” I do not like being toyed with.

The key to Mr Barclay and Anais may be the shawl dealer. Is he also a dealer in hash--so apparent in her apartment? Drugs could be an enticement for Mr B's dangerous encounters.

Celebrating a family birthday by finishing the last several pages tonight. I've looked forward to emjoying a SrNet book discussion for two years, and finally the time and book coincided.

I find I prefer these discussions to my women's group book discussions. I never felt I ought to make more than perhaps three comments in a session with about twelve people. Here it's safer to be wrong, to be dumb, to be smart, and even to change your mind. And, good grief, talk about a "close reading." Seven Sisters is really getting the attention it deserves. Thanks, Ginny. And everyone was so enjoyable.

p. 141: "I suppose I have my father to thank for this change of fortune." With his photograph tucked away in a drawer, I had assumed that she didn't care for her father. But he gives Candida his advice on her financial strategy and also contributes "his little nest egg all those years ago." Apparently, I was wrong.

How much is 120,000 English pounds in American dollars?

"Outdoors, the rain dripped down the brickwork with its crusted city tears of salt and nitrate and lime and droppings: inside, I warm myself in the glow of the bright horizons of the future." p. 143

She's happy!

"crusted city tears"...sigh!...to think that creatively!

p. 143: "Unexpected money in intoxicating....I felt powerful....All sorts of wild notions crowded into my imagination...."

I smiled when I read those words. Though she may be a cryptic writer, Drabble has made me care about her character.

I know. I know. Many of you have hinted that the happiness is short-lived. But for a moment I felt her giddy happiness.

Dandy

Dandy, 120,000 English pounds is 240,000 in American dollars.

I read Book I of The Aeneid. I am now reading Book IV. I skipped Books II and III as I did not think they had any direct bearing on our story. I will probably also skip Book V.

Lizabeth thanks for letting us know what your reading as a companion book.

Ginny,,,,." She ends this entire section, Book I with "If I get back." But again that may be pre trip jitters. Or it may be something else.

I can not imagine why anyone who has wanted to take this trip, and is full of excitement with anticipation would end it with "If I get back."

We all have gone on many trips and in any healthy state of mind we would never even consider not coming back. She has not mentioned ever wanting to go there to live. Does she consider staying in Italy? Does she feel her fate of death? She decides to hide her laptop and says she will enter once she returns. Its constant contradictions with her.

What in heavens name does she mean on pg. 160 "I have just reread the whole of this diary. I am not proud of it. What a mean, self-righteous, self-pitying voice is mine. Shall I learn to speak in other tones and other tongues when I leave these shores? Do I still have it in me to find some happiness? Health, wealth, and the pursuit of happiness. The new declaration of our human rights."

Does she mean she hopes her attitude will change once she is no longer in London? "Other tongues" Does she mean other languages?

I so feel she has multiple personalities especially when she speaks on pg. 161."He explains to me that they were all out of their minds when they did it and I daresay it was so. Drugs he said. I notice that he doesn't technically, express remorse. He speaks as though it was somebody else that did it."

Margaret Drabble said in her interview that it was a real accomplishment to finally be able to write a book using the third person when she wrote her first book using this theme. I have a feeling she had a lot of fun writing this book because she didn't HAVE to have it make sense. She said in her interview there were fabrications.

Its like the last episode of the Sopranos, the writers felt they did NOT have to give you any satisfaction in a nice tidy ending or an explosive ending. A black screen as though your cable went out was their choice. lolol I can see the ending of this book being much like that. Candida plucking the Golden Bough of death, aimlessly walking into Lake Avernus feeling what Jane felt as the darkness of death envelopes her. Someone asked how would she know how Jane felt when she drowned? If it were an alter personality she could have experienced it. I just know Margaret Drabble was attempting something new here and since she challenged herself to be able to write in the third person I could see her deciding to go further and tackle multiple personality disorder. hmmm maybe I just need to try to make sense of something that has NO sense to it. lolol

Ginny I use pink, yellow, orange and blue high lighters when I am doing a study and I was determined NOT to mark this book up but how on earth could I NOT?. My personal Bible looks like a box of high lighters.

I think when she says Other tongues she mean other languages. My bible is full of highlights to

Ginny...."The first rule of thumb of any "literary criticism" is: if you make a point on your thoughts on the character, you have to be able to back your points up with the text.

It would be a lot easier to prove it if this writer/character had been more clear and said it straight forward in text. Because neither are clear then as any reader would do we try our best to decipher what the writer/character is saying. In this case I seriously feel the writer wants the reader to be as confused as Candida is, hence the constant contradictions, implications and clues being dropped.

Ginny...."In other words I can passionately espouse the cause that Candida has a split personality or she has been abused as a child, but UNLESS and UNTIL I can produce the evidence in the form of TEXT from the book, my conclusions are not substantiated. I can keep saying I KNOW she was abused as a child, I can SEE it, I KNOW it, but UNLESS the author gives us text that PROVES it, then it's not so, every time we go off on a tangent we can't prove, we're writing our own book. Not the one in front of us.

With all due respect, I have to say that we are not going off on a tangent nor writing our own book here. I feel all we are doing is expressing what we feel the text is saying to us. Each individual can read a paragraph and come away with a conviction of what they see the text is saying. We all are trying in every way to help make some sense out of a book that makes NO sense. lololol I am hoping the next section is going to help us all be able to back up our suspicions with text. My guess is that it will NOT! Margaret Drabble did not intend for the reader to decipher this. It is a mystery and a fabrication. I believe it will be unsolved in the end. I hope I am proven wrong.

Has anyone else noticed how many words are misspelled in this book? When I type a quote and then do spell check I find so many misspelled words. Surely Margaret Drabble and her editors were aware of this. So why did they purposefully use misspelled words? I am a stickler with spell check and thought many times I had typed the words wrong myself. hmmmm Another mystery or clue?

BellaMarie -- We Yanks are the ones who spell oddly. <g>

Look at our American advertisements: lite, nite, etc. We can't spell!

Drabble spells English not American.

Dandy

That is right. English is English. Its Americans who have changed original English to their version. I speak and spell English English.

Carolyn

Bella you make such a strong argument for multiple personalities. That is such an interesting observation. I hope I can get the book back from the library soon so I can look these parts over again.

I speak 'melting pot' English I'm proud to say.

I don't detect any split personality. It could be Drabble is saying things are never clearcut, black and white. How many things are we really clear about in our own lives? We struggle with life from day to day trying to make sense of it and to hold onto our values amid the stream of consciousness that is our lot. Life and relationships, IMO, are a great, disturbing mystery. Hence the constant ambiguities. Is Candida crazy or sane? Is Andrew a cad or a monster? etc. The medium (or style) is the message?

When hit with a major loss or betrayal, we can become a bit crazed as we try to come to grips with it and fit it into our previous understanding. (Think of all those loyal Catholic women whose husbands left them when the church eased up on divorce requirements. Or the 911 firefighters' wives whose husbands left their families for the women they were assigned to comfort. It must be as if the earth shook on its axis.)

I'd scream at the universe. Aaaaaaargh!

Ladbroke Grove looks pretty much like part of downtown D.C. or Baltimore (except for the double-decker red bus).

I bought a Mega Million Lottery ticket good for 4 draws. I still can't get over the fact three of the #'s are my own #'s picked over a year ago. Those #'s weren't lucky for me before but maybe this time they will be. I got to see another of my tall, (now gray) wavy hair, handsome man at the liquor store. He's so charming and he's the owner. If I won the Lottery I think I could maybe talk him into leaving his wife and running away with me (ha).

Ginny ~ thank you so much for the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature info.
I have copied the shortcuts to the images to explore later.
Michelangelo's Delphic Sibyl is beautiful.
Emma

I speak and write Australian English but I spell in English English. Nonetheless American English is invading our language but happily the spelling hasn't changed yet. Give it another generation and I bet it will be a different story.

I tend to agree with Bellamarie that there may be multiple personalities at work in this story. I need to reread from that perspective and think about it more.

Drabble is intriguing and maddening. I could end up like another poster here who hurled the book across the room.

Ginny: so glad you've got the Dryden - Sounds very classy - I'll sign up for any Aeneid reading here so long as it's not in Latin. You make me curious to seek out another translation to check the differences which is always fun. I have the 'Georgics' translated by Cecil Day Lewis - did he do the Aeneid as well?

I haven't started The Italian Journey yet. I am a few pages from that part of the book. I am beginning to feel a definite happiness for Candida. Her joy in sharing her money for the minivan, her excitement about the trip, etc. I think she has come out of a deep fog named Andrew. She is learning to live again. Ssthor, I think this book is about a journey. I feel happy for Candida. She has weathered one of life's storms.

Gum, apparently so on the Day-Lewis. He's noted in one of the translations as having done one, I think it must have been some time ago. You all have me reading the Aeneid now but I'm way behind you so will have to defer to your insights.

BellaMarie, I am so sorry not to have been clear, and I am so glad you brought that up! I did not mean to imply in any way that the idea of split personality was not good! Just the opposite!! (It's better than anything I've come up with, which tends to lean toward throwing the book across the room a la Christine! Hahahaha)

I just substituted "split personality" for "Martian," which I had originally, just grabbing at examples, to have a plausible example to go with the "child abuse," which seems not, because it does seem more possible than we think she's a Martian, tho at this stage, quite frankly, Martian looks good to me. Of course you can think and say anything you like about any book and I'm glad you said that because this is, after all, NOT a paper in literary criticism. Still it's helpful to know the precepts OF literary criticism when you try to read a book.

But suppose I read it and I personally think, based on my own experience and convictions, that she's a Man from Mars. (This is what I was trying to say). That's OK.

I can then write a review for it for the Watchers in the Sky Magazine and say the Unit II has landed and is written about in The Seven Sisters, because "we all know those are the Seven Constellations which support life in space" or something. (I am making this up) She's a man from Mars, see how she longs for the water?? OK I'm entitled to do this, to think this and to say this in the book discussion. (We actually had something like this happen once in our Books? I tried not to use the word Martian, so as not to use this example, and so substituted one of our own more sensible ideas, the split personality, to balance it out, but I did not mean that was the equivalent of "Martian," just to pick something more feasible. Sorry!

Suppose I read the book, I am totally convinced due to my own leanings and research she is a man from Mars and I keep saying so. That's fine. I am entitled. But in order for it to be valid literary criticism (I know some people hate that word "valid" but I can't think of any other), in order for it to make sense with this book I must prove it with the text that pertains to her spaceship or her shape shifting (I'm beginning to convince myself she's a Martian hahahaa) and I have to find examples in the TEXT, that's ALL I'm saying. Of COURSE we'll each think what we like.

That's what makes our discussions so rich. I did mean to seem to say or mean to imply the split personality was not a viable idea! It IS a viable idea, that's why I put it there. But any idea needs to be backed up BY the text and I am afraid what you are saying is 100 percent true: It is a mystery and a fabrication. I believe it will be unsolved in the end. I hope I am proven wrong.

If THIS group can't crack it, it can't be cracked, I'm convinced of that. Thank you for bringing that up!

Lizabeth, now that you've come to the Dido and Aeneas bit in Book IV, why do you think Mrs. Jerrold and Candida say Aeneas is a "shit?" My edition has Dryden going on and on about the apparent controversies over his leaving, he's in Aeneas' camp apparently. Here is where a lot of different translations (those of you with the Fagles, how does he handle this?) would be very instructive.

Dandy, what a clever idea!! I wish I had kept a log of the conflicting points of view and statements, you must tell us at the end what it's saying. I was thinking this morning, we're right on target here, in our predictions. It's a perfect book to discuss because NOBODY knows what's going on, but one of us will get it, I am positive.

I agree Emma, Ladbroke Grove really does not look all that bad. But I wondered going to bed last night if THIS were YOUR bold new start, would you find it colorful and exciting? Does she?

Would you all say Candida is a glass half full or half empty person?

Does she even have a glass I wonder?

Just looking at the photo from Christine's site made me want to go there. My home town is Philadelphia, and I love a big city. That neighborhood looks exciting and exotic to me, am I the one from Mars? But would we want to live there or would we simply be sojourning? And no pictures on the wall because we're moving on? And on?

I'm trying very hard this morning to put myself in her shoes. Let's all do? Let's all try some role playing. Here we are, in a strange new city, all sorts of ruffians, and bums and strange ethnic people and apparently we have not been exposed? To them in the past? I can't….it's as if she's in Borneo or something.

And so is everything highlighted? The man speaking French? Is he making a pass? He's 59, I'm…what? 55? So……

Christine: And if the author is playing by the rules, this astute group, which is making a LOT of serious efforts, will certainly be able to parse the facts of the narrative and the meaning of the story by the time we’re finished.

I think you have it there, in every way and that's a big IF. IF the author is playing by the rules…. But IS she?

One might say IF she is not playing by the rules why must we?

Dandy, p. 143: "Unexpected money in intoxicating....I felt powerful....All sorts of wild notions crowded into my imagination...."

I smiled when I read those words. Though she may be a cryptic writer, Drabble has made me care about her character

Yes, me too. She IS a good writer. I loved this quote: "Outdoors, the rain dripped down the brickwork with its crusted city tears of salt and nitrate and lime and droppings: inside, I warm myself in the glow of the bright horizons of the future." p. 143

Yes.

Thank you for the Weil!!!!! I can't believe that's what she MEANT! The great unwashed?!?!?!?!? Boy this lady has REALLY lived in a shell hasn't she?

Barbara, this is quite good:

How many things are we really clear about in our own lives? We struggle with life from day to day trying to make sense of it and to hold onto our values amid the stream of consciousness that is our lot. Life and relationships, IMO, are a great, disturbing mystery. Hence the constant ambiguities. Is Candida crazy or sane? Is Andrew a cad or a monster? etc. The medium (or style) is the message?

I am totally convinced that this group will find whatever there IS to find , to cop an analogy from the Pirates of the Caribbean, to find the heart in the chest. If you look at it like this, then she's doing an incredible job annotating the ramblings of any mind! Stream of consciousness

Good one!

I got to see another of my tall, (now gray) wavy hair, handsome man at the liquor store. He's so charming and he's the owner. If I won the Lottery I think I could maybe talk him into leaving his wife and running away with me (ha).

Watch it, Emma, you're turning into Candida! Hahahaa

HAHhahahaha

Barbara, this is beautiful and the best compliment anybody could pay our discussions:

Here it's safer to be wrong, to be dumb, to be smart, and even to change your mind. And, good grief, talk about a "close reading."

THANK you! I sure do enjoy our discussions here and this is a very difficult section IF we need to make sense. Do we? Those of you who identify with her, what do you make of this? Those of you who are irritated or suspicious of her, what do you make of this? What struck YOU in all these strange utterings?

Are YOU looking forward to going to Italy with her? I can hardly bear it, she seems to have put SO much hope in it? She seems to me to be a very fragile person and anybody knows TRAVEL will tell the tale with traveling companions!

BellaMarie, We all have gone on many trips and in any healthy state of mind we would never even consider not coming back. She has not mentioned ever wanting to go there to live. Does she consider staying in Italy? Does she feel her fate of death? She decides to hide her laptop and says she will enter once she returns. Its constant contradictions with her

I took it as her fear of flying or disaster, I never considered her wanting to LIVE there, but what an interesting thought. And you're right, what DO we make of the constant contradictions?

Does she mean she hopes her attitude will change once she is no longer in London? "Other tongues" Does she mean other languages?

Oh smart you! This is not the first time she's mentioned that, either!! It's in one of the glosses in the first section, I wonder what it means? Tongues…glosses…glossitis…glossolalia….…hmmmmm.

By the way, did you all know ONE of the definitions of gloss IS:

a false and often willfully misleading interpretation (as of a text)…Webster's

Did you see that? I just read that this morning trying to find glossalia.

!!! I bet you she knows that? Does that mean her little glosses such as: She wonders if she should pick the Golden Bough are all false and willfully misleading?!?!?

Tell me, what part of her upcoming trip seems to be connected with Golden Boughs? I think we all think that means pick the brass ring and go off on a lark, that was not what the Golden Bough is and what IS this Golden Bough she is thinking of??!!??

This book IS in English, isn't it? Hahahaa

What else in this section struck you or would you like to comment on?

A ha'penny for your thoughts?

Hats says above, "The hourglass is a reminder that she is an aging woman. What about her health? Why would an hourglass make her think of a stroke?"

I had sort of sloughed over that as Candida's histrionics again but that brought me up short. If YOU were all looking at an hourglass or your watch stopped (which mine do all the time) would YOU think you were dead or having a stroke?

??

I mean, be honest? I would certainly not! What does it mean that she DOES?

I mean if these are her inmost thoughts, what are they SAYING from these clues? I also agree with Hats that the TONE of this section is hopeful, would you all agree? I think the TONE is important. I think the tone in this section is positive, and the other nagging almost obsessive worries are taking a back seat. As Dandy has pointed out, she's happy. The other demons keep rushing in, it's almost here as if it's a DREAM, where you're happy and then here come the demon nightmares, but I'm seeing HOPE here.

I'm not sure how I would characterize the TONE of the first section? How would you?

Super points, if I have not mentioned something YOU all would like to talk about, PLEASE bring it up! Off to find more photos of Ladbroke (BROKE? And down on your luck?) Grove.

Why did she not set this in Seven Sisters, maybe some of you can find THAT subway stop?

And I am still hung up on her giving Andrew her trip contact number, he's NOT her "family" is he? Why not one of her daughters, the one who remembers her birthday. Strange how she does not recognize the birthdays of others, her friends, but records who has given HER a card or present?

I’d be very interested in a discussion of the “precepts of literary criticism.” I just fly by the seat of my pants. It would be nice to know how to be systematic. Ginny, do you have any essays or books to recommend?

The photos I found of Ladbroke Grove are mainly contemporary, and this book was written more than 5 years ago. I think it’s an area that has been gentrifying in recent years. That’s suggested by the conversion of a Victorian adult education building into a sleek and fashionable health club. By the way, I read someplace that Margaret Drabble and her husband, the biographer Michael Holroyd, live in two separate apartments and his is in the Ladbroke Grove area.

The glosses have always seemed to me tacked on. They don’t explicate the narrative particularly well, and sometimes they have nothing to do with it. Take, for example, “She wonders whether she should pluck the Golden Bough” (p. 95). The golden bough is the required token for passage into the underworld, if you are not dead. And if fate wants you to have it, you will pluck it easily. In that section she talks about odds and ends: menial jobs, arguments for/against God, contact with friends, winning at solitaire, winning the lottery. I can’t make sense of it—so what else is new?

“precepts of literary criticism”

In my senior year of undergraduate college, I had to read criticism of a piece of literature and criticism of that criticism and so on and so on. As the king in the "King and I" would say, "Etc. Etc. Etc."

Then the professor would make the assignment to criticize the criticism, using extensive footnotes in the correct MLA style.

Yikes! I lost my writing voice. I wrote academic in the correct MLA style.

It was then that I dropped all interest in pursuing a master's degree in English literature.

It is much more fun to fly by the seat of my pants. How else could I wax about Dentist McDreamy or even say, "Yikes!"?

Dandy, who likes quoting text and responding in her own quirky writing voice

Once again i find myself in agreement with Barbara. Candida's life before her divorce was far from perfect but it was her life and it was suddenly taken from her. She's trying to build a new life but some days go better than others. One day she feels hopeful, yes, i can build a new and meaningful life. Another day she feels too old to make a new start. And sometimes she wonders if there's any point to even trying to make a new life. She seems a bit of a fatalist to me. Fate has handed her a financial windfall, she's got a project and a group of congenial friends and she feels hopeful again. I don't think this means she has changed in any essential way. She will continue to struggle with that "what's the use?" feeling.

Candida seems to identify with Aeneas' story in that he was driven from his home and forced to seek a new life. But where Aeneas had the gods driving him onward and determining where he should go and why, she has no guidance and is trying to find her own way. Maybe that's why she wants to go to Cumae. Maybe she hopes she will be inspired in some way to figure out where she's meant to "go" (in a metaphysical sense).

OH what wonderful points!!

I came IN to say, here we go, Ladbroke Grove, flat for sale.

Check this out One bedroom flat for sale in Ladbroke Grove.

This fantastic flat is full of natural light and has just undergone a complete refurbishment programme. The open plan living/kitchen has solid wooden flooring and large triple sash windows and the bedroom has a beautifully fitted en-suite shower room. The property is located in the heart of this fantastic area which is packed with restaurants, bars and shopping.

And what is the price? 335,000 British Pounds: ($661, 708 USD)

Jeepers. I must say I've seen worse neighborhoods:

That's a fruit stand in Ladbroke Grove maybe it HAS changed in the last 5 or so years, of course we don't know when Candida is living there, it could be 1932, but it sounds and looks to me like any big city today.

SSthor, thank you for reacting to Barbara's great ideas, I loved this!!!

Candida seems to identify with Aeneas' story in that he was driven from his home and forced to seek a new life. But where Aeneas had the gods driving him onward and determining where he should go and why, she has no guidance and is trying to find her own way. Maybe that's why she wants to go to Cumae. Maybe she hopes she will be inspired in some way to figure out where she's meant to "go" (in a metaphysical sense).

Oh how good. How good!! I have had a LOT of trouble making the parallel between her and Aeneas!

"Æneas, wondering at the sight, asked the Sibyl, “Why this discrimination?” She answered, “Those who are taken on board the bark are the souls of those who have received due burial rites; the host of others who have remained unburied are not permitted to pass the flood, but wander a hundred years, and flit to and fro about the shore, till at last they are taken over.” Æneas grieved at recollecting some of his own companions who had perished in the storm."

I am beginning to wonder whether Candida will suffer more obstacles on her Italian Journey. Margaret Drabble could very well have us deceived by Candida and her friends' excitement about this trip.

I remember going on trips with my husband and children. We'd start off all excited about going to a new place. Then, on some trips, one of the boys would become carsick, the car tire might blow, etc. Unexpected, unhappy events that made us feel gloomy and silent for awhile. From what I understand Aeneas journey was a mixed bag part of the bag, part of his journey is painful. Can we ever escape trouble completely? How fast do we have to run? Is Candida running fast enough, far enough?

I am reminded of Ella's earlier post about "The Far Shore."

Dandy, you are dead right on. YOUR post is what most people feel after encountering a bad experience in a course in literary criticism which should be about your own dandy quirky voice! You can say YIKES! hahahaa

I love this. I'd like to see us do anything we'd like here, be quirky, do literary criticism, do as much or as little as we'd like, you are a remarkable group in your open mindedness!

Christine, HOOO HAH, boy did YOU ask the $64,000 question! Good heavens, like the Sibyl, to be a billion answers. I did a Google search, confidently thinking I'd find IT and there are a BILLION iterations, who knew? Look at this for instance Sources in Literary Criticism

I do know Stephen King wrote a great book on it.

Here's another one: Online sources of Literary Criticism but here's the Encyclopedia Britannica's take on what it is: One form of Literary Criticism There appear to be 100000 books on it. Wouldn't it be FUN to talk about IT one time!?!

Anyway the Encyclopedia Britannica quoted there says, in part: (in the link almost all of these terms are underlined links):

Literary Criticism

The most basic definition of literary criticism would be a reasoned consideration of literary works and issues. Often taken as the earliest important example of literary criticism is Plato's warnings against the hazardous outcomes of poetic inspiration in general in his Republic …..

As the very basic definition of a literary criticism it is a discussion of literature, including description, analysis, interpretation, and evaluation of literary works. Like literature, criticism is hard to define. The critics objective is to challenge definitions of literature and criticism that seem unworkable, too general or to narrow in some manner. The task is to deal with different dimensions of literature as a collection of texts through which authors evoke more or less fictitious worlds for the imagination of readers.

For example one can look at the text's formal characteristics, critics usually recognize the variability of performances of dramatic works and the variability of readers' mental interpretations of texts.

By paying particular attention to its language and structure; its intended purpose; the information and world view it conveys; or its effect on an audience--in studying an author's purpose the literary critic forces beyond a writer's conscious intentions affecting what the writer actually communicates.

At heart an exploration of the complex relationship between truth and fiction in various types of storytelling. In studying literature's impact on its audience, critics have been increasingly aware of how cultural expectations shape experience.

Works of literature are studied long after their first publication, awareness of historical and theoretical context contributes to the enjoyment, appreciation, and understanding of them. Historical research relates a work to the life and times of its author. Paying heed to the nature, functions, and categories of literature provides a theoretical framework joining a past text to the experience of present readers. The tradition of literary criticism combines observations by creative writers, philosophers, and, more recently, trained specialists in literary, historical, and cultural studies.

Selected References

ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA: http://www.britannica.com

Literary Criticism: http://servercc.oakton.edu

Everybody keeps quoting the The Johns Hopkins Guide to Literary Theory and Criticism. That might be useful.

But here appears to be the best one, this is IT: A How to Guide: I'm going to put this link in the heading, it's CUNY and it's excellent: A Guide to Literary Criticism from CUNY

They say, in part:

READING AND WRITING ABOUT IMAGINATIVE LITERATURE

I. FORMALIST APPROACH. Question--HOW does the work mean?

"New Criticism" assumes that the literary work is autonomous, a thing in itself which can be explicated in order to discover its organic unity and the relationship between medium and message. This criticism developed in response to the 19th century confusion of literature and biography, morality, or philosophy. Such a close look at the components of a work helps us to enter into the text, even if a reader does not agree with the method's aesthetic, apolitical, disinterested, reserved judgment regarding content.

A. Plot, Narrative Line, Plain Sense (the first things we find).

How important is action, if there is any? Why?
What are the nature and significance of the action? (In some works the action may be internal, not external. Ask yourself why.)
Is the action compressed, large and diffuse, episodic? Is the overall structure organic, i.e. appropriate to the content?
Is the plot plausible or probable? If improbable, why? What does the story-line mean?
How is conflict created? What is its nature? Why?
Is there a basic plot structure? Dramatic, melodramatic, impasse, linear or a variation, combination or assault on these forms? Why?

B. Character(s) or, in a poem, persona.

1. Are characters individuals or types? Why?
2. What motivates the character(s)?
3. What is the function of minor characters, if any?
4. Are there significant character contrasts or parallels? To what end?

C. Emotional effect (assuming that you let your reading happen to you. If you prejudge it, the effect may be boredom or annoyance at being assigned such reading.)

1. What emotional effects occur? To what end?
2. How is emotional response related to the plot or situation and character(s)?

D. Special effects.

1. Who tells the story or narrates the poem and why? Is the narrator (a.) omniscient, (b.) third person, limited, (c.)objective, (d.) first person?

2. Is there meter or poetic form and/or characteristic use of language? Significance?

3. Style:

Characterize the author's language (abstract, general, metaphorical, plain, precise, effusive, repetitious, economical, naturalistic, realistic?)
Is sentence structure significant? (Loose, periodic, parallel, declarative, subjunctive, imperative, active, passive voice, etc.)
Does author use metaphor, simile, symbol? Does s/he create a pattern through such devices? Why?
Does the author use irony? dramatic irony? Why?

4. What part do setting, physical description, or dramatic scene play? Is there unity of time, place, action? If not, why not? 5. Is there a "deep structure "--mythic or archetypal modes underlying the surface of the work?

II. CRITICAL PERSPECTIVES. Question--WHAT does the work mean? …

And so on, it goes on and on it's excellent, it really is.

Do you all not recognize we're already doing most of that? In our own ways, going YIKES! ?!

You of course don't have to take a course to read a book, to enjoy it or to talk about it, but I have to say I love that one from CUNY because it makes some good points. I'm going to print the whole thing out for myself, just to keep. I'm a long long way out of a class but I remember them very fondly.

I like the allowing for different perspectives, and the examining the TEXT, it always comes back to the text. I like that!

Hats, so right, Ella's far shore again!!

I'm sorry that the nice pictures of Ladbroke Grove are causing us to distrust Candida's description. It reminds me of the Warehouse District in New Orleans. As the name implies, this was a formerly industrial area not far from the central business district. About 20 years ago developers began to buy the vacant warehouses and convert them into luxury apartments and condos. A vibrant neighborhood with great restaurants and lots of art galleries has sprung up there. However, as in Candida's neighborhood, you can turn a corner and there's a rescue mission which always has a long line of ragged men waiting for the soup kitchen to open. There are rather seedy businesses that have been there long before gentrification. There is trash on the streets. You can come out of your luxury condo to find a derelict asleep in the doorway. I'll bet there are neighborhoods like this in almost any big city. If you saw a picture of the Warehouse District I'll bet it would show a boutique hotel rather than the rescue mission.

Oh I believe her completely, absolutely, on her description! As Christine said, things have changed apparently in that area, and again we don't know when Candida lived there, as I said. It could have been in the '50's. I could have written it myself, but I am not sure I would see it the same WAY that's what I'm saying.

I think what I was trying to say is

Real estate is very pricey in London and has been and

I understand the neighborhood she's talking about, because I grew up close to and going thru such neighborhoods. Of course that was in the early 40's and things have really changed.

Yet in my stays in London I think that perhaps I may actualy stay in the very same type of places she describes, to save money. So I not only agree with her description, I could have written it from the 40's and Philadelphia. I'm for my own part TRYING to say I feel a connection to that dumpy area, it's HER attitude toward it I'm interested in. I've been there and done that and moved out. I still remember those stores under the El tho at the end of the line. I know at least 2 of you here are from Philly, do you remember anything like this?

There used to be a Horn n Hardarts in Philadelphia where you'd go and put in your nickel or whatever and get a sandwich from the glass fronted machine, very exciting. And then you'd sit at a table, at which anybody was free to join you. People who used to be considered bums would come in, get the free hot water, use the free ketchup and make tomato soup, eat the free crackers and have a meal with you, it happened to me as a little girl with my mother many times.

I'm saying this is one thing I believe for the time she wrote it, (whenever that may be) implicitly.

The CUNY guide is just the kind of thing I had in mind. Not a course, but a brief outline of what's involved in assessing a literary work. And my first reaction after reading it was just what you said, Ginny: We're already doing a lot of this in this discussion.

It's also quite helpful, when I reach the end of my own ideas, to see what other aspects of a book could be considered besides the ones that come immediately to mind. It gives me a broader view.

Thanks.

ISN"T it good! I am so glad you like it, I do too, I really do. It raises all kinds of thoughts in what now passes for my brain!

You don't think that it's more or less contemporary? She knows what a Sony Walkman is, and also knows that it's not the latest gadget in that department. And I'm sure she said that she couldn't cope with a mobile phone. So unless she's time traveling, she's sort of up to date.

I believe her descriptions of the streets, and the weather, and the atmosphere of the place. It's her dealings with people, both internal and external, that throw me.

Oh. Sony Walkman, another clue, when did they first come out? We can date it then: no older than XXX, definitely.

I am not sure I would describe things as she does either, in fact I know I wouldn't. I wonder IF that is important?

Back on page 11 of my text Candida mentions that she used the first three digits of her birth year for her locker combination. They were 194. Since I was born in 1949 and am, like Candida, almost 60, I assumed from the beginning that the novel was taking place at the present time.

Hello all!

Here is a call from the north. I have been reading about Candida and her “sisters” and have reached the section when they are travelling from Tunisia with the ferry to Italy. The tone in the book has changed from pessimism to a kind of cheerfulness and a lighter view of life and of the companions, though Candida thinks that death is the solution of it all, which it obviously is - in a way. But I have learned to love this woman. She is not a heroine, she is just a strong woman trying to find herself and to know what life really is. Someone said that maybe Mrs. Drabble is laughing at our attempts to go too deep into the Virgil trap. Can it be as simple, as it’s a journey based only(!) on a common (even if of different personal reasons) interest for the Aeneid, Italy, Naples? Am I making you disappointed of simplifying? I do think that the VI:th book is essential with the Sibyl, lago Averno and the way down to the Underworld, the river Styx and the rise back to the world again after meeting you dear, departed ones. Is Candida Aeneas looking for her father? Will she meet him on the fields of the blessed? (You can see that I don’t have the English version. I use my own translation here.) I don’t mind if you contradict me. On the contrary, I would be delighted to hear your comments and make me go deeper and teach me how to think. Olle

First I loved the definition of gloss that was provided. Another puzzle perhaps.

Then as to the question:

Lizabeth, now that you've come to the Dido and Aeneas bit in Book IV, why do you think Mrs. Jerrold and Candida say Aeneas is a "shit?" My edition has Dryden going on and on about the apparent controversies over his leaving, he's in Aeneas' camp apparently

My thinking is that Mrs Jerrold and Candida say Aeneas is a "shit" because he left Dido. I mean he did leave and he did intend to sneak away. She pleaded with him to even just spend a little more time with her so she could get used to the idea and he wouldn't even do that. I disagree with them because he was ordered by the gods to leave. I am not sure he could disobey without severe consequences.Perhaps he could have handled the departure better.

There is one section that really got to me...where she talks about having his child, that if he left and she were pregnant, that would be better, because at least she would have something left to remind her of him. That was so painfully beautiful.

"Had you deferr'd, at least, your hasty Flight,

And left behind some Pledge of our delight.

Some Babe to bless the Mother's mournful sight;

Some young Aeneus, to suppply your place;

Whose features might express his Father's Face;

I should not then complain to live bereft

Of all my Husband,..."

I'm reminded of a cute lady psychology professor who once said she welcomes all points of view but she occasionally needs to say, "You're so wrong I hope your head falls off!"

With something as subjective as literary criticism we probably think that of each other at times. Here, I guess the alternative response to what seems absurd would be silence.

Evidence isn't necessarily a quote, though, and that invites all kinds of wild speculation. Evidence can be a mood or change of mood conveyed in various subtle ways or even an absence of something. For example, no one in Candida's diverse circle of friends says that she's off her rocker, neurotic, or even peculiar. Only she thinks that at times.

Candida also concludes she's frigid. Is she, or did she just have Andrew's number and was turned off? She speaks of searching for a lover.

On the other hand. at least one friend, Julia, says Andrew is arrogant and not what he'd like people to believe.

Thanks for the encouragement, Ginny. You may live to regret it.

Candida describes an ipod, universal use of computers, dreadlocks, contemporary language on TV, and so on. I identify with her when she says with her limited laptop use, she's stuck somewhere between the pre-computer and the computer era, though I've moved somewhat into the latter.

I notice in recalling Jennys, she mentions Jenny Agutter, an English actress (in "The Railway Children" years ago but still in films), and I wondered if the other two Jennys were famous also.

I noticed elements and ideas of D. H Lawrence, and at the end, she mentions him.

I checked out the CUNY guide. Can we agree (sort of) on what "coming back to the text" means? In the "New Criticism, I think it means not referring to the author's biography. But that can be fun and enlightening. It also means ignoring all kinds of things we might know outside the text.

The "new criticism" is a great discipline for scholars, but it's only one kind of criticism--even professional criticism. Thank goodness that book discussions are more free-wheeling. But as Ginny reminds us, we still do need evidence for some of our interpretations. It's so easy (for me, anyway) to be lazy and not ferret out the evidence.

Barbara, you make perfect sense to me.

I've not had Candida's experience of being dumped for a younger, sexier, wealthier woman. But I can imagine that one day I would blame myself for being inadequate as a wife, while another day I would hate him because he chose the easy way out of a rough patch in the marriage. And perhaps on another day I would tell myself that he was a pervert and none of it was my fault. I'm pretty sure I'd be bummed that my children were perfectly willing to accept the new order of things and that my community didn't censure his behavior at all.

I think that part of her excitement at this journey is from a desire to fill the void in her life with friends and new experiences. I also think she believes that she will receive some sort of inspiration from the trip, particularly Cumae, as to what to do with the rest of her life. Like Aeneas, she fled the wreckage of her former life and now she hopes that some power will show her a direction.

It's nice to agree with one of you young folks now and then.

Today I read up to p. 161. The notes scribbled in my reading journal pretty much have been discussed here already. I just have minor points to contribute.

p.151:"If they both (Julia and Sally) accepted, I knew that we would make a motley crew."

Agree? Or is it your experience that a wide variety of personalities gathered together is the making of a rich experience. I lean in favor of the latter opinion.

p. 156: Did it surprise anyone when Sally "leapt at the chance."? Candida may be a lost soul, but Sally is a lonely soul. She soooo needs Attention that she causes tension (pornography talk) to get it.

p. 157: "We'll be seven anyway, if you include the driver. The driver is a woman called Valeria." Hmmm...This is a new twist. Will Valeria have a starring role? Hmmm...I can't wait to find out!

Dandy

Olle...Is Candida Aeneas looking for her father?"

My prior post was..... Could Candida be Aeneas's reincarnation?

In the Aneid his father explains to him about reincarnation when he goes to the underworld and visits his spirit.

"At last Aeneas and Deiphobë reach Elysium, which they enter after Aeneas places the golden bough on its threshold as an offering. They now find themselves in the Blessed Groves, a region of beautiful meadows inhabited by blessed spirits, among them Anchises’s. Escorted by the soul of the poet Musaeus, they find Anchises deep in a lush green valley, surveying the spirits of his future Roman descendants. After an exchange of emotional greetings with his father, Aeneas asks about a river that he sees in the distance and about the souls that hover “as bees” over it. Anchises tells him that the river is named Lethe, the river of forgetfulness, and that the spirits filling the air formerly lived on earth in human bodies; having lost all memory of their former existence after drinking the water of Lethe, these souls are awaiting their turn to be born again in new bodies, with new identities that have already been assigned to them.

When Aeneas asks his father to explain reincarnation to him, Anchises describes a pageant of historical personalities who would have been already familiar to Virgil’s Roman readers, but who are described from the vantage point of Aeneas and Anchises in Elysium as belonging to the future of a city yet to be founded. Among the spirits that Anchises points out are Silvius, Aeneas’s son by Lavinia and the founder of a race of kings; Romulus, founder of Rome; and the descendants of Aeneas’s son, Ascanius, the Julian family, whose glory will reach its peak with Augustus, “son of the deified.” This “deified” god, Julius Caesar, is also present. The pageant ends on a note of mourning: Last to be identified is young Marcellus, Augustus’s nephew and heir, who died at the age of nineteen.

The pageant completed, Anchises leads Aeneas and Deiphobë to the two gates of sleep, one of which is made of horn, the other of ivory. Passing through the second gate, Aeneas and the sibyl return to the world of the living."

You can access cliff notes of the Aneid at: http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/LitNote/Aeneid.id-3,pageNum-52.html

Ginny... "I think we all think that means pick the brass ring and go off on a lark, that was not what the Golden Bough is and what IS this Golden Bough she is thinking of??!!??

Do we all think that means pick the brass ring and go off on a lark????

I feel the Golden Bough is the means to enter the after life.

I am thinking Candida has a need to speak to her father, knows Aeneas was able to pick the Golden Bough and speak to his deceased father, so is it possible she is hoping to be able to also?.

IF that's the reason for her journey to Italy and the Cumean caves, then I guess we have to ask the question....What does she need to speak to her father about?

I have not ever gotten an instinct yet that she has ever been molested or abused by her father as a child or teen. She could be hiding this from us yet dropping clues by the unemotional ineptness, but I'm not feeling it.

Why does she keep ONLY her father's photograph yet have it turned upside down in a drawer? If it were not for her father she would have never gotten the windfall, so it seems he watched out for her and had her best interest at heart.

We know the Aneid is what drives Candida to Italy, she is retracing Aeneas's journey. We know Aeneas after speaking to his father went on to his destiny to find Western civilization’s greatest empire.

Is Candida going to learn her destiny? If so, What do you think her destiny is, what does fate have in store for her?

Ginny, my brain can barely keep up with Candida let alone try to comprehend all that Literary Criticism dialog. I think this group is fantastic and we'll figure it all out muddling our way through it. The wonderful thing about this book discussion is we all feel comfortable not having to feel its a structured class. You did a neat thing this time letting us all just go at this without the questions in the header. Thank you for the trust and faith in us to be able to keep the dialog going with out them. You are the BEST!!!!

I spent my time today going over the cliff notes of the Aneid. I have read and reread Book VI and have to give myself some time to let my brain catch up.....lololol

I don't feel Candida is a glass half full or half empty but (like the grains of sand in the center of the hourglass) somewhere in the middle. She definitely has a glass.

Has anyone read "The Sea Lady" ? Margaret Drabble's biting love story that charts a sexy celebrity feminist's return to a remote town on the North Sea. Since I'm curious, I will check it out next time I'm in a book store. Is it a continuation of one of our seven sisters ? Maybe Candida won the Lottery, became famous and returns to a lover she met on her last sojourn. But then again, would I care to read about it ?

Ginny ~ I may have mentioned to you before, I spent about 7 yrs of my young life in Philadelphia. I loved taking the trolley to the subway and going downtown. My area was actually called Germantown. I remember Horn n Hardarts...mom or my aunt took me there while we were out shopping or whatever for the day's visit. I remember the free ketchup soup and they kept crackers on each table for the taking. I recall a shoe store next door and Joe Camel in the square blowing smoke rings. I recall there was also a music concert hall we girls from the orphanage used to go to. Things I haven't thought about in a very long time. Not the happiest of times for me.

One of things that keeps me living here in Maryland where I do is comfort and knowing where everything is. I'm not sure I could handle a strange new city these days by myself but perhaps with a companion it might be possible. The actual process of moving gets me, like boxing everything up and deciding what to haul away that I won't ever need.

Ginny ~ (haha) it would be a hard decision to make (if I ~~won~~ win the Lottery), the handsome gynecologist or the liquor store owner (haha). Hey, it's my fantasy
We had two #'s Friday.

I now know who wrote those glosses. They don't fit.
I'm nearly to the end of the book...couldn't put it down. Even now I'm upstairs on this computer and thinking of getting the book and finishing it...can't wait. And can't wait for all your comments to follow.

If my watch stopped or an hourglass stuck I certainly would not think I was dead, having a stroke, or that the earth suddenly stood still.
The sudden stop at Seven Sisters added mystery to the story but I would have thought more would have been said about it. It left me wondering ..... so ? Why did it suddenly stop there when it never does ? Was a ghost involved at that particular train station ? This was the title of the book so why was so little said of it. Maybe the publisher decided on the title.

Emma

Well, I have been writing stuff that has nothing to do with Seven Sisters. Please excuse. I am half asleep.

hats ~ you're kidding ! Small world. I cannot remember the name of the Elementary School I went to (used to walk there every school day...in all kinds of weather...about 20 city blocks one way). I also graduated from Germantown Junior High and moved following that. On Saturdays we got in free (being an orphan and all) at the roller-skating rink in downtown Germantown. I also had to walk to my dentist from Church Lane & Chelton Avenue. Our paths may have crossed at some time. We walked everywhere those days and when I had a dime I would ride the trolley.

Yes hats, those are the Seven Sisters traveling together.

Emmabarb, this is too much!! I was born on Church Lane in the 20 hundred of Church Lane.I went to Joseph Pennell Elementary School. I went to Wagner Junior High. Then, I went to Germantown High School. We shopped at Woolworths on Chelten Ave. We would catch the #6 trolley on Ogontz Ave. Then, catch the subway on Olney Ave. and ride to City Hall to go shopping downtown. It's such a small world. My father owned a cleaner named HiLo. After high school, I worked as a file clerk at Albert Einstein Hospital. That's where my first baby was born too.

Emmabarb, I read your post where you had given the names of the ladies going on the trip. Thanks.

hats ~ you were born on Church Lane ? Wow ! My address was 607 Church Lane (right on the corner). We were surrounded by really big mansions. The orphanage I lived in was also a three story mansion on lots of fenced-in land. There was a Convent near me and an old folks home and an all boys boarding school.The area was very old. There was a stone plaque by a tree where I lived that read "George Washington Stood Here".

Emmabarb, my address was 2017 Church Lane. I could walk pass Lambert street and walk up a few blocks and stand in front of the orphanage to catch the bus to Chelten and Germantown avenues.

I remember the mansions across from the orphanage. We use to go to the Orpheum Theater on Chelten ave. and walk back home. We would pass the mansions always stopping to run up in the driveways. They were very, very old homes.

There was a lot of land around the orphanage and a long fence. I walked pass that fence all the time. I always wanted to go inside. On Chelten Ave. there was a park. In the park was a small library. Across from Germantown High School is where the Amish would come to sell their produce. There was also a farmers market on Ridge Avenue. My father would take the trolley and subway all the way there because he said they had the best meats. There was also a farmers market on South street. I thought of old Philadelphia when looking at Ladbrooke, well, a little bit.

We lived in a rowhouse on Church Lane between Lambert and Woodstock street. The basement was the tailor shop.

hats ~ one of my room-mates at the orphanage (name Jane) used to take me to the row house where her mom and dad lived when we got a Sunday off to visit. Her dad was dying of TB so that is why she was in the orphanage. I don't remember the address but we were able to walk there. We shared a closet at the orphanage and she got mad at me one time and hurled a roller skate at me for something or other. Needless the say, after a trip to the hospital for stitches on my head, that was the end of our friendship.

Did you go to Germantown Hospital?

Back then, rowhomes were very nice. There were two floors to our house. On the first floor, we had kitchen, diningroom and livingroom. Then, on second floor, the bathroom and three bedrooms with a hallway.

My parents best friends lived in Mount Airy. Back then that was a very beautiful area. Miss _____ worked for a doctor. The doctor left her his home. It was written in his will. Our rowhouse didn't even come close to looking like that detached home. It was just gorgeous.

hats ~ what are you still doing up at this hour of the morning

It's routine with me

I had my tonsils taken out at a hospital in Germantown, must have been Germantown Hospital. I also had a splinter removed from a very sensitive area one time after sliding down some old wooden planks in the two-story garage where I lived.
Your rowhome sounds exactly like my friend's. They also had a porch in front. When I became a teenager I baby-sat for people in some of those georgeous mansions. One home in particular I remember when I arrived at the gate (walking) there were two electric eyes and someone came on the speaker to see who I was to let me in. The lady was a famous poet but for the life of me I'm not sure who it was. I've always thought it was Elizabeth Browning.

Those mansions were gorgeous. I remember one with huge windows. It struck me as strange that there weren't any curtains at that window. Now I know they were so, so far from the street they had no fear of passerbys or children like us. Lets pretend Elizabeth Browning did live there.

We had a front porch. You are right. The backyard was so tiny you couldn't move from one side to the other side. We didn't have a lawn.

I get up to read. In the daytime it's really hard to read. I have to cook for my husband, do laundry, make the bed and pretend at doing other chores. Before you know it the day is gone. Plus, I do have a sleeping problem. I automatically wake up around two thirty.

p. 156: Did it surprise anyone when Sally "leapt at the chance."? Candida may be a lost soul, but Sally is a lonely soul. She soooo needs Attention that she causes tension (pornography talk) to get it. (Dandy)

I guess Sally is a lonely soul. I remember her talking about Pompeii and pornography. What an odd way to get attention. Some people do react negatively in order to get the attention needed. Thank you for helping me see her as a person needing a friend.

Thank you for the link. I hate to confess it. I haven't got a handle on The Golden Bough yet. For this reason, I have avoided discussing it. I don't think of the brass ring. I just draw a blank. I was struck by this part of your post.

"After an exchange of emotional greetings with his father, Aeneas asks about a river that he sees in the distance and about the souls that hover “as bees” over it. Anchises tells him that the river is named Lethe, the river of forgetfulness, and that the spirits filling the air formerly lived on earth in human bodies; having lost all memory of their former existence after drinking the water of Lethe, these souls are awaiting their turn to be born again in new bodies, with new identities that have already been assigned to them."(From Bellamarie's post)

I don't think Candida has pleasant memories of her father. If the memories were pleasant, it seems she would want to keep his photo in plain view. I would want to pick it up and hold it close to my heart from time to time. I have a feeling that Candida is taking this journey in order to forget a part of her past. She wants to return a "new" person. This is where the water might come in. She wants to be washed clean of the past.

There is an old, black man she writes about in her journal. She writes about him twice. He carries a cross, a hinged cross that he can fold up, through the neighborhood. Everytime I have seen him mentioned in her journal I think the hinged cross is a way of showing that Candida needs to be saved or rescued. Rescued from what? Maybe her memories. Maybe it's not what her father did to her. Maybe it's what Candida did to her father. I am beginning to think the Golden Bough is Candida coming to peace with herself. She needs this peace because she has often looked and seen the glass as half empty.

“Unhappy Dido! was then the rumor true that you had perished? and was I, alas! the cause? I call the gods to witness that my departure from you was reluctant, and in obedience to the commands of Jove; nor could I believe that my absence would cost you so dear. Stop, I beseech you, and refuse me not a last farewell.” She stood for a moment with averted countenance, and eyes fixed on the ground, and then silently passed on, as insensible to his pleadings as a rock. Æneas followed for some distance; then, with a heavy heart, rejoined his companion and resumed his route."

Just one more post. This post reminds me of the phone call ignored by Candida. Andrew called to tell her about Ellen's phone call. At the time I read this, like some of you, I felt how in the world could Candida go off on her trip without returning her daughter's call. I didn't see any good reason for ignoring the call. While Candida is on this journey will she get bad news from home about Andrew or one of her daughters? Will someone losing a life give her a new way of seeing life? Will Candida pay a great price on this journey? I am thinking the Golden Bough, to pick it, to get it in your hands, doesn't come without a heavy price.

Candida really starts to puzzle me. Does the money mean this much to her.. A trip to Italy.. I would guess that this for her is a holy pilgramage.. I know, I know.. read Aenis.. but I dont want to.. I did all that way back and now just do not want to. I like the book, am puzzled and intrigued by Candida,but I would guess do not want to compare with.. Just not my thing anymore.

Someone's comments sent me back to thinking about the glosses. I also had noticed before that they were written in a different voice. It is not just that they are in the third person, but the style is so different from the style of the journal. I also felt they were written after the journal page was written. I don't believe that kind of reflective line could be written before the journal page.

Then someone else mentioned a quote that led to the distinct impression that this journal was not written for Candida, but with someone else in mind. Someone else who might read it? That kind of makes sense to me because if I am writing a journal just for myself, would I include so much description of other characters and places? I have to look back at my journals.

When I was in high school and then again in my twenties, I kept journals very on and off until I met my husband.. I have not looked at them for years. But I don't want to read them and I don't know why.

So the glosses and the comment now become part of the puzzle.

As to the comparison of Candida to Aeneas, I don't see it. Perhaps superficially because they are both on a journey. Comparing Candida and Dido makes some kind of sense because Dido felt she was wronged by Aeneas and etc.

So why is the trip so important (beyond just seeing the sites referred in to the Aeneid? What are her expectations? What does she hope to understand and/or find? And why doesn't she express that in her journal? I think I would.

Somewhere the trip is referred to as a pilgrimage (I hope that is not in next week's reading) and if so, what is the purpose? Just to pay homage or something more? Why the lack of clarity in the journal?

OH!!! OH oh oh, forgive me, Everybody, for one minute, this is like having your past come back with a ROAR! Hats and EmmaBarb, unbelievable, the same STREET, the same neighborhood!!!!!!!!! Golly moses, isn't it a small world!

I can NOT believe that!!!!!!!!!!!

And don't we know the Ladbroke Grove type of areas? Hahahaa

Olney!!! Yes, and Ticonderoga, I used to have all the subway stops memorized. We lived in Holmesburg, which is just beyond the end of the El as it goes out towards Bristol. We also lived in a row house, NOT at all glamorous. Ashville Street, I can't find it now. Same address as my current street address here, do de dooo dooo. And Ashville NC is just up the road, SPOOKY!

If you went out the front door of our house (just a concrete stoop, which ALL the women washed every morning or were thought to be lazy, no front yard), you had to go around the block to get to the back door. Walls as thin as paper. OH boy. I remember the ice house and them delivering ice to the upper windows, I remember the gas street lights (people tell me I don't, I do, I remember the gas lighters). I remember the horse and milkman and the awful bottles of milk with the cream always on the top, uggg. Yickers, it IS a miracle we weren't all killed. I remember the rag and bone men, too.

I took the baby last week to view a Roller Rink, having had SUCH fond memories of the one going out towards Bristol on the main road from the El. They are nothing now (or at least that one was) like WE knew. Definitely not wholesome. Dark, strobe lights, screaming children, no order, chaos. Dangerous boundaries. Where are the booths with the egg creams I remember, the nice music, the man calling out now everybody go backwards or whatever? It USED to be a wholesome place for children. They are horrid and nasty now, at least the one I went to. I had my own little outfit for skating, skirt, shoe skates, it was a magic time or so I thought. I was an AWFUL skater. Haahhaa My knees, you won't believe this, but my knees STILL bear the scars of the Philadelphia streets and clamp skates.

Where the El stopped were all kinds of stores, definitely a 2002 Ladbroke Grove kind of place. . My grandmother worked at Hanneman Hospital and I'd take the subway in to see her, having memorized all the stops. Quick: what WERE they? Ticonderoga, Olney, GirARD!!! Yes Girard!!! er….. One day she came back with me and we went shopping in those old junk stores under the El. There were gilded clocks, lots of gold plate, real junk then, but collector's big stuff now, huge furniture and she bought, after haggling in shock over the price, a bedroom suite, curved foot bed with a high back, armoire, dresser with mirror, for $15.00. She thought it was scandalous. It was my son's and now is my grandson's and it cost $15.00.

AH forgive us all, memories of old Philly. You know we went back, our Classics representatives, last year for the National American Classical League Conference, at the U of PA and I must say I still enjoy Philly. The people are just as nice as they ever were, very tolerant drivers, you'd have thought I never lived there, I can't find anything. You can drive right down town with no problem. I need to go do my annual pilgrimage tho everybody I knew there is gone, now.

OK!! Sigh, I'm over that, now on to your super super stuff.

Lizabeth, I am also having a problem equating Aeneas to Candida, tho some of you have me almost convinced, but I think you have neatly articulated the question du jour:

So why is the trip so important (beyond just seeing the sites referred in to the Aeneid? What are her expectations? What does she hope to understand and/or find? And why doesn't she express that in her journal? I think I would.

Somewhere the trip is referred to as a pilgrimage (I hope that is not in next week's reading) and if so, what is the purpose? Just to pay homage or something more? Why the lack of clarity in the journal?

I'm struck by a lot of things you all have said in the last day about her father, more in a sec, have to wipe off the Philly magic dust here....

Ginny, one more thing. My mom loved rummage sales. She would take the trolley out to Chestnut Hill to a church rummage sale every year in the fall. By the time we loaded up on those beautiful used items, we could hardly get ourselves back on the trolley. My father got involved too. He liked to look for toasters, coffeepots, etc. Finally, we had a way to get the brown bags loaded with goodies back home. Those were the days. Ginny and Emmabarb, thanks for a walk down memory lane. How can we forget it??? Never.

Reading this last diary entry does bring me to the group consensus: a diary usually runs the gamut of emotions. Here Candida looks forward to the trip, despairs about her whining, is happy, empathizes with remorse, notices darkness/dirt/despair right next to a pleasant paragraph about Lady Pond, is kind, and then does the ring release ritual for getting over Andrew and on with her life.

Soup to nuts and every pot in the kitchen...this entry.

I too am reading ahead. Me? Reading ahead? The story is that intriguing. Give me five minutes of time and my nose is now in this novel.

Dandy

Dandy, I better get my nose in the book or I am going to be left behind. Running to my book, almost there. I must make one phone call.

I loved listening to Margaret Drabble's voice in her interview. When asked what inspired her to create Candida she answers, "She was inspired by walking around a certain part of West London.. she would see the loneliness of people." She says, "I am married, I have children and friends but there are moments I feel an un intense loneliness." She goes on to say big cities are very alienating and she created a heroine that could find it more difficult than she did, Candida finds it frightening and a dark way exciting."

She used the word heroine,. Do any of you see Candida as a heroine?

I see it heroic to move to a new city to begin a new life, but I also see it cowardly to leave your life because you feel it too painful to have to be confronted with the actions of Andrew and Anthena. I realize she needed to begin a new life, yet detaching herself from her children and everyone else that was a part of her life was extremely selfish.

Aeneas gave up his life with Dido because he was destined to go on to do great things to effect the world which I can call heroic. Candida running away does not seem heroic to me. Maybe I am being a little hard on her but to spend three years doing much of nothing but living in self pity and despair seems like such a waste of life. Drabble says, a bit of magic prompted the girls to go.....I say the windfall is the reason Candida decided to go. She said herself, pg.148 "But the truth is that this project, without the unexpected wealth bonus, would never have occurred to me."

I do love the attitude on pg. 149 "We were like school girls, all of us, looking forward to a treat. And the treat was of my creation. I had thought of it. I had taken the lead. I was no longer a passive victim of my fate. pg. 150 I was childishly excited at the power I could exercise in bringing this disparate crew together. I would be the magician."

Margaret says, she is compassionate and concerned with the change in women's lives and attitudes and she mentions (Sexual, freedom and responsibility.)

She says when writing "The Seven Sisters" she was exploring the feeling of growing old. "With age you get more stressed and neurotic about little things, like not being able to run down the street if someone is chasing you"

She says, "It is liberating writing about it."

In reference to the girls going off to Italy she says, "A bit of magic prompts them to go off on this wonderful tour." When asked if Candida is expressing what she (Margaret) thinks, she responds, "She is, she is."

So we know that loneliness was the inspiration for Candida, growing old was the theme she wanted to address and she sees Candida as a heroine and expressing what Margaret Drabble herself thinks.

What is the "bit of magic" she refers to that prompted the girls to go off on the wonderful tour?

Ah!! Well, I enjoyed that. You are so right Hats, about those rummage sales, great stuff to be found in them. REALLY. I wonder why, now?

I think Lizabeth has put her finger also on a number of very important items there. BellaMarie, we were posting together, interesting on Candida's running away in the light of Aeneas doing the same. I wonder what the MAGIC thing was? The inheritance? From her father?????

Christine and SSthor, good thinking, you have convinced me the book is contemporary now. Since it was published in 2002 and she apparently knows the area well since her husband (thank you Christine) keeps a home there and she used 194 (thank you Ssthor) as her locker combination, I think we have a good picture of the time! It's like a puzzle.

I love what you all are doing here. Hats made a very important post a long while back. Sometimes, when the posts are flying a post simply, made at the same time, disappears. You can see them all by hitting Printer Friendly, you won't be printing but you also won't miss a remark in our conversations, try it.

At any rate I missed Hats' post. She says, "Æneas, wondering at the sight, asked the Sibyl, “Why this discrimination?” She answered, “Those who are taken on board the bark are the souls of those who have received due burial rites; the host of others who have remained unburied are not permitted to pass the flood, but wander a hundred years, and flit to and fro about the shore, till at last they are taken over.” Æneas grieved at recollecting some of his own companions who had perished in the storm."

I am beginning to wonder whether Candida will suffer more obstacles on her Italian Journey. Margaret Drabble could very well have us deceived by Candida and her friends' excitement about this trip.

This bit about the unburied dead, buried without the obsequies, is VERY big with the ancients. If you recall it caused no end of horror in the Iliad, and lends quite a bit of understanding to Hector being dragged around the city by Achilles. I wonder why this bit is in THIS book, is somebody not properly buried? Dad? Jane?

I also agree with Hats about trips. You get two trips: the one you excitedly plan and the one that happens. Which will Candida have?

Dandy asked about the motley crew and how she would find that exciting. Based on my experience, the wrong traveling companions can RUIN a trip for you and for everybody else. I think she's got a recipe for disaster here myself, but as Olle says, what a change in this next section we'll start talking about Monday!

Olle, you are a little ahead of us, we'll begin our exciting Italian Jouney discussion on Monday, that is we'll DISCUSS it on Monday, many of us have finished the book. I love the fact that you have grown to love this woman, and feel empathy for her. We'll need everybody who does to staunchly defend her at the end and maybe once and for all explain her!

Everybody please see the DISCUSSION schedule in the first box in the heading here. We have today and tomorrow left in this section before we move on. I must confess I am excited to read this next bit, see heading for how far we'll discuss.

EMMABARB knows who wrote the glosses!!!! I don't! I can't wait to get to the end, I knew you'd all crack the case!

Lizabeth, I think this IS the issue: I disagree with them [Mrs. Jerrold and Candida's calling Aeneas a "shit."] because he was ordered by the gods to leave. I am not sure he could disobey without severe consequences. Perhaps he could have handled the departure better.

Yes perhaps he might, since he did promise her and give a pledge to her and one of the reasons OF the god was, waking him up in the middle of the night and saying hurry hurry,

"She resolved on death, revolves in her heart fell craft and crime, and awakens the swirling surge of passion. Will you not flee hence in haste, while hasty flight is possible? Soon you will see the waters ashore flashing with flames, if dawn finds you lingering in these lands. Up then, break off delay! "varium et mutabile semper femina."

A fickle and changeful thing is woman ever.

Oh dear.

Nasty!

He's scarpering and the god says (these ancient gods directed everybody all the time, fighting with each other and it was quite difficult sometimes to tell which god was directing what action, it's clear THIS god (who is married to Juno who hates Aeneas), is not very nice here about Dido, who has believed the pledges and promises of Aeneas, SINCE he made one to his father, carrying him the city as she pitifully says).

So here the god wakes him up, says, Yes it's your destiny, I order it and anyway, women are so fickle, she's got crime in her heart, the shores will soon be burning, you can't trust a woman, get out.

I think THAT is why Mrs. Jerrold and Candida call him a "shit."

(The fact that, according to Dryden, Aeneas fled Troy about 200 years before Dido founded Carthage, notwithstanding.)

Barbara has the $64,000 question!

"Do we need to make sense?"

Good point. DO we?

Good point also on the different types of Literary Criticism. One time somebody said in a book discussion here, "I didn't realize we were going to be deconstructionists." I had no earthly idea what she meant. I do now because of the link, there are apparently all KINDS of literary criticism, I'm proud we've done what we have here naturally. I think you are right, and BellaMarie, we don't need to do literary criticism, at all, you're right too, but for those who would like to, we need for our book discussions to offer every way of looking at a book and be all inclusive to all approaches, which I think you've done here brilliantly.

I also agree with Barbara, however, that at the bare minimum, we do need evidence. But what IF nothing she says makes sense? "A poem should not mean, but be," type of thing?

I wonder, having said that, if this is her idea of a poem in prose, an epic poem of stream of consciousness thought. I just wonder.

More…..

dandy-lion......This sure was a dandy one, "Soup to nuts and every pot in the kitchen...this entry."

I love it when one of you come up with something that just brings laughter to my day. What a perfect line to describe her constant contradictions.

When addressing WHO is doing the writing, why the glosses, who is writing the glosses, why the third person, who is suppose to read this and when was it actually written, I have to say I feel it will be a mystery unsolved. Again, multiple personalities are at play here. Are they spirits, are they alters, are they the writers way of playing with her new style of writing?

The one thing that constantly comes to mind when I ask these questions or read someone asking them is this: Margaret Drabble said this was written for enjoyment and NOT to teach. She said she used fabrication, she felt liberated in writing about the sexual, freedom and responsibilities of women today. I have to believe she read the Aneid and enjoyed it enough to use as a comparison for this book. I have NOT read ahead although I must admit it is very tempting. I do not know how this is all going to end but I am guessing there is no neat and tidy ending here.

Aeneas ended up slaying his dragon Turus in the end for the sake of following his destiny which was heroic but he showed emotion, love, compassion and all other human feelings throughout his quest in the Aneid. He expressed remorse to Dido when he visited the underworld and got to address her. He does end a hero on so many levels.

Why would Candida and Mrs. Jerrold call him a "shit"?

They read the entire book, they saw what a great person he was. He was destined to do what he did even with it going against his own wants and feelings. He never expressed needing or wanting the control Candida so relishes in.

Candida is almost the opposite of Aeneas's character. hmmmmm me thinks me is on to something. "IF" Candida is Aeneas's reincarnation could it be so he could have the opportunity to live his life outside of the fates and manipulations of destiny?

I don't get the sense that its Candida's destiny to go to Italy, to visit the Cumean caves or to speak to the Syibl.

I feel its her desire of wanting to live the life Aeneas did because she was too much a coward to stay in her own.

Poppykosh to all of this!!!!!!!

I’m writing this before you all got mad and throw all your anger over me and my stupid comments from yesterday. Do you believe in fate? I do from now. This morning (Saturday) I went with my wife to a flea market (she’s a big fan of such places) and as I strolled along, minding my own business, I came upon a bookstall and the first book my eyes fell on was – yes you’re right – “The Seven Sisters” in the Penguin edition. I took it as a sign from Virgil & Drabble and bought it for less than a dollar! I had in mind that page 95 was the “golden bough-page” in your books, so I looked it up and there it was. So now I have the same edition as the rest of you and can follow your references. Hurray! I also remembered someone’s referred to page 143 and looked that up to, and there was the final proof that this is in fact a sort of a pilgrimage (yes, reincarnation) and the sentence “It was clear that fate had long intended that I should go to Naples, Cumae and the Phlegrean Fields.” convinced me that – of course – you were all right and I was a stupid idiot. Can you imagine my poor cheeks, red of shame in the market crowd?

The funny thing (besides finding the book so haphazardly) is that I did understand this page in the same moment as I read it in English. In my Swedish edition it wasn’t that clear to me! My mistake or the translator’s, I don’t know, but I know for certain that I’ll read everything more carefully from now on, and in English. See you soon and keep up your brilliant work.

olle

Olle! We were posting together, you have nothing to apologize for, see next post! BellaMarie I now see you posting now too, it's amazing how you can't see the posts of others, and Dandy!!

hahahah Good posts, all, soup indeed. A rare mix, actually.

Thank you BellaMarie, I just love what you all have made of this discussion, I love coming in here, it's a great thing. I also enjoyed that interview, it's always good (especially in this case) to hear what the author intends!

Now whether or not we got that out of it is another matter, her art may have produced something else!

Barbara you notice elements of D. H Lawrence? Where? I'm woefully ignorant of Lawrence!

I am intrigued by all the great ideas on what Candida seeks and Ssthor threw another into the pot:

I also think she believes that she will receive some sort of inspiration from the trip, particularly Cumae, as to what to do the the rest of her life. Like Aeneas, she fled the wreckage of her former life and now she hopes that some power will show her a direction.

That's excellent. Do we all agree she seeks SOME purpose other than a lark?

??

In a way it's as Stephanie says, a holy pilgrimage? What good do we think it will do her? What good does SHE think it will do her? Just something to do? It's certainly exciting, I'm going July 6, I'm excited.

BellaMarie asked: Is she going to learn her destiny? If so what do you think her destiny is, what does fate have in store for her?

THAT one I don't know, anybody have any ideas?

I think she thinks it IS for that purpose. I think she has pinned some strange indefinable longing on this one, it's not just a trip, to me, I think she sees more in it. What I have no idea.

Hats said, I have a feeling that Candida is taking this journey in order to forget a part of her past. She wants to return a "new person." This is where the water might come in. She wants to be washed clean of the past.

She has a lot of washing then to do, because she's carried a lot of baggage with her, but who would not?

And what an exciting premise: the class, her old friends (sort of a strange mix) Mrs. Jerrold, who is much too old to be leading a tour, sorry, don't you think so? Strenuous, climbing to Cumae is.

Dandy, Sally jumping at the chance? That puzzles me, frankly, what did the rest of you think of it?

Dandy keeps saying lost soul, lonely soul, and of course Lake Avernus is about souls, interesting.

And YES they are now 7!!

BellaMarie, good point on Lethe, the River of Forgetfulness. Remember at the very beginning she said something about by the shores of the River Lethe I lay down and wept. I thought it was a famous quote, (probably from the Aeneid) now I wonder. WORD wants Adenoid again. Hahahaa

Good question: What does she need to speak to her father about?

I wonder, too. Keeps his photo, face down. Interesting.

Emma, where is the sudden stop at 7 Sisters, I don't remember it? I have not read The Sea Lady, maybe Drabble is obsessed with water, period, Carolyn has mentioned the Waterfall too!

Hahaha, you find Candida more interesting not famous and rich? IS she interesting at ALL?

That bit BellaMarie quotes about being not able to run away, that enters my mind too, does it yours, anybody?

Or do you all run marathons daily? I used to be quite a runner, but I sure am not now.

So here we are, two days left in this section. She's happy and looking forward with anticipation. Page 158.

That's me on a trip:

Anais warns us that when last she went to the Bay of Naples the whole place was shrouded in mist and remained foggy for the whole of their visit, but I'm sure that won't happen to us. WE shall have fair weather and a calm crossing. It is set in our stars to be so.

I like that attitude. What does it mean it is set in our stars to be so????

Just to whet our appetites for the next section, here is the Bay of Naples, which sometimes is in fog in March:

That's Sorrento where the Sirens lived in antiquity on the bottom right and the Bay of Naples. This view is from walking down the mountain side into Sorrento, but you can see the same thing from your balcony:

Here is, from the balcony (see Traude why they call it 7th Heaven?) hahaah I just noticed that 7!! Is the view of the Bay of Naples and the harbour of Sorrento. Vesuvius is on the left just out of the photo:

And here from the same balcony is

Vesuvius. To get to Cumae you need to go left of Vesuvius and Naples around the coast.

Vesuvius is quite interesting. Some mornings it's gone! It's completely covered by fog, you would not know a mountain was there, it's kind of magic, actually. The whole area is.

I am excited about her trip but given her strangeness, and her varied companions, I am worried, too. It's a TRIP, I think she thinks it's something more. How can she help but be disappointed, and if she is, will we?

I can't WAIT to read this next section as Olle says full of promise, way overdue!

What ends would you like to tie up here? What is mumsy? have any of you read Goethe's Italian Journey? I have not but his description of the Aqua Claudia as a "succession of triumphal arches" is magic, I'd like to.

What does she mean by this on page 140: That's my proper place. That's my destiny.

WHAT is? Killing time? I did not understand that one. Ha'penny for your thoughts on anything so far! We're OFF to Cumae on Monday!

OLLE!!!!!!

This morning (Saturday) I went with my wife to a flea market (she’s a big fan of such places) and as I strolled along, minding my own business, I came upon a bookstall and the first book my eyes fell on was – yes you’re right – “The Seven Sisters” in the Penguin edition. I took it as a sign from Virgil & Drabble and bought it for less than a dollar!

NO!!!! An OMEN!!! hahaha I can't believe it!

I am not sure why you are apologizing, don't worry about the translator being off!! Just put the Swedish in here and let us try our hands at two words! I think you are fabulous!!!!

“It was clear that fate had long intended that I should go to Naples, Cumae and the Phlegrean Fields.”

IT"S FATE!!

And this MEANS YOU will know what I don't at the end~~!~ (I feel that) WHOOPEE!

Small world, indeed!

Olle, will you, when we get to a sticky part, tell us the Swedish/ translation for that also? If we point out the English now that you can compare them? I think that might be VERY useful?

Olle's experience seeing a copy of Seven Sisters this morning is really strange. It got my attention. Ginny, the photos are beautiful. Thank you.

Olle..I can not imagine you finding the book this morning. I was expecting you to say you found the Aneid but The Seven Sisters is even more eerie.

It makes me question....how much of our own lives is predestined, is at the hands of fate, is out of our control?

I am a Catholic so of course I do NOT allow myself to believe in reincarnation, yet I can't say it does not intrigue me. I do know that in the Bible it says God knew us before we were in our mother's womb and by every hair on our head. I do believe God has his plan laid out for us and we can by choice go in the wrong direction, take juts in the journey, yet ultimately we will end up where we were meant to be by the power of grace.

I realize this book is fiction with the twist of Mythology and magic woven into it, and I can see Margaret Drabble had a lot of fun writing it.

She has done a great job in making the readers (US) care about Candida whether it be compassion, hatred, love, curiosity or indifference. We seem to be rooting for her destiny to be joyful, and freeing. We seem to be skeptical as to whether she will live in the end. Will she pluck the Golden Bough and gain entrance into the underworld, will she get to speak to her father's spirit, will the Sybil tell her what her destiny is? YES, indeed we the readers do care on some level and that is what makes Margaret Drabble a great author and Candida an interesting character.

One last comment for me, I would like to think Candida would NOT be the reincarnation of Aeneas as I suggested because her life could not hold up to the heroic life he led in the epic poem. He is a legend, I fear Candida will not even come close to those feats.

Gosh, what interesting posts I've been reading.. Out of the blue I remembered that not far from where I lived in London until 1958, was an intersection called "Seven Stars" The bus driver would always call out " 7 Stars, Starch Green" This place was nothing spectacular, a pub on one corner.. what its name was I have no recollection. Several streets crossed Goldhawk road. (then the main thorofare to Chiswick, Kew and beyond which passed the north end of RavenscourtPark) At that point,.Paddenswick Road, going south to Hammersmith and north to Willesden.Another street went north somewhere, if memory serves me it was probably the site of the laundry(Starch Green)This particular corner hada few shops on both sides, one of which was a newsagent cum lending library with probably a sub post office in it. My mother used to be a member of the library clubfor about a penny a week and she could also borrow children's magazines to read to us. That's how she learned English.Our lending library in Ravenscourt Park was a casualty of bombing during WW2, when we came back from evacuation it was no more. Pity, it was a nice diversion on the way home from school. . With all our discussions does "7 Stars" mean anything?

Colkots

I disagree with the notion that Candida has spent 3 years of doing much of nothing but feeling sorry for herself. She took care of the legal affairs surrounding the dissolution of her marriage. She searched for and found housing in London. She signed up for an intellectually challenging evening course. She made a decision to take better care of her health and began exercising regularly. She kept up with some old friends and made some new ones. She purchased a laptop and taught herself to use it. She did volunteer work at Wormwood Scrubs. She may not be setting the world on fire but neither is she doing nothing.

I"m guessing Margaret Drabble used "heroine" as a synonym for "protagonist." I'd also guess the magic she mentioned referred to the sudden financial windfall rather than literal magic. Candida was wishing she could go on a trip to Italy and, like magic, the money to make it possible arrived. She feels that fate plays a big part in life and it is her fate to make this journey.

As to Aeneas and Dido, the man always knew he was fated to travel to Italy and found a great civilization. He and Dido fell madly in love and he had to be reminded by Jove through Mercury that it was not his fate to remain in Carthage with Dido. Perhaps he was a shit because he allowed himself to forget his destiny long enough to utterly destroy poor Dido. A better man would not have made promises that he knew it was not in his power to keep. Many a woman in classical mythology discovered that it's not easy to love a hero.

Hi, Colcots--i believe there's a reference in the text to the Pleides, the seven stars in the Seven Sisters constellation. I really enjoy your local references.

Ginny--About DHLawrence--now that's an assignment I was afraid you'd give me. I once wrote a 50+ page thesis on Thoreau's influence on Lawrencre's views (and style) concerning nature and society, and both authors are echoed in this book. I'd already mentioned the Thoreau-like content and style of Candida's apartment description in which she says people can have too much baggage. I believe she makes mention of a trip to Chicago with Andrew--another nod to the US.

As for DHLawrence, maybe later. A lot of re-reading for this lazy person! Interesting that she mentions toward the end this author who was personally a seducer and homewrecker. His views on women in his (1920's era) books and life were ahead of his time, but it would be a stretch to call him a feminist.

Drabble is so erudite and has her fingers in so many pies--literary, mythological, anthropological, geographical. etc.; yet it's not necessary to be versed in any of them to follow this very human story. I'd be surprised if some women don't see Candida as an "everywoman," struggling to keep it together amid the shocks of life. And since she's educated, though she insists not intellectual, she uses her knowledge of myth to see her way forward. And to show the way to her readers?

Meantime, has anyone noticed how many people in Candida's family, including Candida, are drawn to to disabled and challenged people?. I had a list going, and some may escape me. Andrew came to work when the school was for blind children. Candida is drawn to the afflicted Jenny who dies. And she visits a criminal in prison. Ellen--her closest child--has a stammer and works with speech disabled people. And one important person to come for those of you who were good enough not to read ahead! I believe there may be other references to disabilities also. Drabble has done this for some purpose. I cant recall if there is a disabled person (a blind seer?) in the Aeneid.

The coincidences in this discussion are mounting--numbers, childhood cities, Olle finding the book. I'd already thought it was serendipitous that I'm planning a brief stay in Philadelphia in a month or so. We missed the larger (?) King Tut display in Charlotte, and it's in Philly now. Also, the last time there, I didn't get to see the Old Town section and wonder if it' still worthwhile. AAA just sent a list of highlights from Philadelphia--another coincidence.

Some days I think Oprah may be onto something when she says everything is happening for a reason. Why not just sometimes things happen for a reason?

1. For anyone else collecting evidence on Candida's connection to her parents, here's another passage to remark:

"The letter arrived on a Tuesday morning, like a bolt from the blue. Jove's thunderbolt. The gods play games with us, but at least this game is an amusing one. At least it begins well. Maybe I am after all a favoured daughter."

After all?

2. I found another interview with Margaret Drabble, a video this time.

http://www.bookwrapcentral.com/authors/margaretdrabble.htm

Fear not--she is the LAST person on earth to give anything away. In fact, I don't think anyone on the entire Internet has a clue about this book. So it's up to us!!

ssthor..."As to Aeneas and Dido, the man always knew he was fated to travel to Italy and found a great civilization. He and Dido fell madly in love and he had to be reminded by Jove through Mercury that it was not his fate to remain in Carthage with Dido. Perhaps he was a shit because he allowed himself to forget his destiny long enough to utterly destroy poor Dido. A better man would not have made promises that he knew it was not in his power to keep. Many a woman in classical mythology discovered that it's not easy to love a hero."

Whoaa did someone forget that Dido had her own motives in the beginning for Aeneas? He was tricked by Cupid to fall in love and then tricked by Venus his mother. This was not a man who purposefully and willing decided to capture a woman's heart only to leave her in despair.

Dido to me seems the "shit" or at best Virgil for creating the scenario. lolol Dido did not intend to love Aeneas she intended to use him to protect her property. Her first thoughts in seeing him was deceit and trickery. I say be careful what you wish for. So now she is the victim?? Me thinks NOT! Every epic poem seems to need a love story and broken heart.

http://www.cliffsnotes.com/WileyCDA/LitNote/Aeneid.id-3,pageNum-52.html

"Aeneas’s struggle between his love for Dido and his need to prove worthy of his fated mission—which he pursues at the price of sacrificing the personal happiness he craves as much as any man or woman—saves him from becoming a mere one-dimensional character."

"Virgil’s motive for inventing Aeneas and Dido’s doomed love affair is to provide a poetic and romantic explanation for the hatred that existed between Rome and Carthage. The Punic Wars, which occurred between Rome and Carthage in the third and second centuries B.C., would seem to be the fulfillment of the curse Dido places on Aeneas and his posterity when he abandons her and sails to Italy to fulfill his destiny.

ssthor"Perhaps he was a shit because he allowed himself to forget his destiny long enough to utterly destroy poor Dido. A better man would not have made promises that he knew it was not in his power to keep. Many a woman in classical mythology discovered that it's not easy to love a hero."

Poor Dido? I am a woman and can have sympathy and compassion for her hurt feelings, but again she was not a victim, she was the pursuer.

"Dido, distraught by her lover’s departure, puts a curse on the Trojans, the outcome of which will be the Punic Wars, and then commits suicide."

How selfish of an act is that by Dido? As the saying goes...Nothing like a woman scorned.

ssthor I think in this case we will have to agree to disagree as far as our feelings about Candida and Aeneas. She herself says on pg.133 "My life is so useless, I am redundant. Life has mad me redundant. I am retired from it, though I have never had a job from which to retire."

I don't disagree with what you said she has done but in her mid life nearing 60, she begins this book in the third year of living in London, all that you mention does not seem much to me nor to her according to her entries.

Almost impossible to catch up ... but just a few remarks:
I agree with Liz in post #398:
She said that Candida is not Aeneas. That's my opinion, also. Why does anyone want Candida to be a character in a classical work? or to act like a male hero in early Roman history? Why not let her live a life as a disturbed woman in the 20th century?
In edit: After re-reading some of the posts, I see that Ginny also wonders why Candida seemed to be compared to Aeneas. Just because Candida and her classmates enjoyed reading the Aeneid, doesn't mean that any of them was having a life parallel to any historical character.

I'm also put off by anyone thinking that Candida was abused as a child? Why does a woman leaving an unhappy marriage have to be a woman who is running away from childhood memories. So I'd like to disagree, politely, with whoever posted that (cannot find your post, sorry).

Now that I've finished, I wanted to read the review suggested by Christine. It was too busy (??) so I googled the review at "Yale Review of Books." I thought, "This is terrible!" The reviewer doesn't see the humor in Candida's self-deprecation and her original dry martini bitterness to those around her. (Fat Sally, whom Candida's goodness allows her to invite on the trip and praise in Part Three, etc etc.). The reviewer declares Candida "frigid," though she's seeking not just a husband but a "LOVER." And misses so much else that you ladies (and gentleman) caught on a close reading that it should make you proud.

She goes on about how Drabble's poor relationship with her "more famous" sister A. S. Byatt probably affects the book. The biggest hoot--that none of her UNFILMED books has a heroine that sounds like Gwyneth Paltrow. (This is a new requirement of Englsh literature?) Was that movie "Possession"? I read and have the book, but for me Drabble is more famous--but so what??. And since when does Hollywood decide the merits of a book?

The hair-splitting "new critics" (a tiny minority, by the way) would hate dragging in such tacky gossip. (WE, however, get to do that if we like.) Actually, Judi Dench, Vanessa Redgrave, or, more likely, a number of younger fiftyish English or American actresses could play this part, and the differing "voices" wouldn't be that hard to adapt.

Finally, the writing was so clumsy that I scrolled down to see who the heck was putting one over on Yale. It's a junior in a Yale college named Marisa Knox. Well, Marisa, I'm generous--I'd give you a B- and recommend you re-read the book for humor and irony. And, BTW, this would make a great movie. I find Candida in Part One and throughout a loveable character in a (justifiably) funky mood.

The first time I read "The Scarlet Letter," I had no idea that Nathaniel Hawthorne was being satirical when discussing the heroine's sin. I knew he disapproved of her treatment, but it took an up-to-date teacher to highlight that much of the book was tongue in cheek. And that Hawthorne loved the liberated romantic European authors of the day and was urging contemporary tolerance by placing the story in an earlier time, just as authors do today. It made for a far less dreary read.

Reading this review reminded me of the story of a student who got a B- on an English paper at the local public university. When he submitted the same paper at one of the Ivy League schools--maybe Yale, he got an 'A'. Is this subjective stuff we're up to, or what?

Mippy... "Why does anyone want Candida to be a character in a classical work? or to act like a male hero in early Roman history?

I don't see anyone wanting Candida to be Aeneas, I see different scenarios of trying to figure out if and how she compares to him. After all, Candida is the one feeling the need to retrace Aeneas's journey. Margaret Drabble seems to have a purpose of including the Aneid in this story. Or does she? Maybe we are all reading too much into this. Maybe this book is as she states, about loneliness, growing old and experiencing new beginnings.

"Why not let her live a life as a disturbed woman in the 20th century?"

Why not indeed, and disturbed is the operative word here for me?

I like Candida because she is so "human". She is not a heroine. Like many of us she has insecurities probably exaggerated because of that transition we all go through as we pass into "the third age". This is a time to take stock knowing that we have lived two thirds of our life. Candida wants to hurry and pack as many experiences as she can into these years the last third of her life.

Going to the Latin classes, the gym and the trip to Italy are expressions of this need to flood herself with new experiences.

Carolyn

Carolyn, great post. I can't repeat your words. You have put your thoughts beautifully. I greatly agree with you. Margaret Drabble, I think, wants us also to see that we can live alone. Living with ourselves won't cause the world to fall apart.

Most elder American women and men have been taught the impossibility of living without someone else beside us daily. Margaret Drabble, through her character, Candida, is writing about living life independently. No matter the reasons, if others betray us, abandon us, we become devoirced, we become widows, life is still full of goodness. We will, like Candida, have to take time adjusting and accepting a new life. Then, new fruit will begin to bud. We will laugh and enjoy our life in a different way with different people.

It's a message of hope. You can make it. I can make it. People are making it everyday, men and women. My sister became a widow. I saw her begin to enjoy life again in a different way. None of the family thought she could do it. She didn't allow the waters to drown her even though there were many nights of tears and fears. Anyway, this, I am coming to see, is one of the delightful and lasting messages of this book. There is hope for tomorrow. There is joy in going it alone.

Mippy, I agree with all of your post. About The Aeneid, I became excited learning about a story from Mythology. It sidetracked me. Still, I do believe Margaret Drabble had a reason for using The Aeneid in the novel. She could have picked any one of a number of contemporary authors to excite Candida. Mrs. Drabble chose Virgil. The Aeneid adds a rich flavor to Mrs. Drabble's novel. Using a modern woman's life and making a parallel with a myth from so far in the past is making the book stand apart from other novels with the same themes.

Bellamarie. I am enjoying your posts on The Aeneid. I am going back to reread and read for the first time the posts of yours I might have missed. I am following your pretty blue light. It's like a lighthouse light moving across the water. Probably, it will save me from drowning in an unknown myth.

Ginny ~ this book discussion has really been fun, thank you so much. Thanks for the image in the heading with Aeneas and his father (hadn't seen that one before). The lady in all black, is that Sibyl ?
About it being a small world. I know, isn't that amazing.
Oh and would you just look at that picture of the Bay of Naples.
I've not read Goethe's Italian Journey but may be interested later. I have another book discussion after this and several unread books sitting here waiting. Oh and Professor Schama's Power of Art premier's tomorrow night on PBS. I have that book too and haven't opened it yet. Besides that I'm listening to Aeneid on CDs and have the book opened at Book VI.

hats and Ginny ~ I've lots of childhood memories of Phila., thanks to you two. Talking about all of this has jogged my memory. Did you ever sleigh ride in Audubon Park ? Or horse-back-ride alongside Wissahickon Creek ? Or visit the Phila. Zoo...I loved that place and even had a ride on an elephant's back.
Wouldn't it be fun to meet over coffee or tea sometime and talk about old stuff. We had dark wooden shutters on the inside of a number of those huge windows. They were usually shut at night and opened again the next morning (one of the girls had this as an assignment).

I seem to recall reading that none of the seven sisters took a Golden Bough with them on their trip to Italy.

I'm not sure we'll ever learn about Candida's father. I actually thought he was dead, and then she got that pension windfall he was responsible for. I'm nearly finished the book and haven't read anything yet...unless I totally missed it.
By-the-way, the ending has me a bit confused but I will wait 'til everyone gets there before I comment on it. I dropped my book on the floor and lost my place. What's strange is I read where I thought I left off and it was totally different...like something changed the words while it was out of my hands .

Emma

Emmabarb, I love, love the Phila. zoo. It is one of the first places we took my husband when he came to visit me. I have enjoyed you and Ginny so much.

Ginny, thank you for the new painting. Emmabarb, I had forgotten to mention it. Excuse me.

hats ~ oh so many old memories. Being in an orphanage as a young child had it's ups and downs. We had a big statue of Venus in our library

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY ! to any Dads and Grandads here !

Emmabarb, we would have fun getting together. What a fun time we would have discussing old memories. That's one good thing about memories. They never change. A Statue of Venus in the library?? Wonderful! Emmabarb and Ginny, thanks for the memories.

Edit: a huge armless Venus Di Milo

I would have loved seeing it.

We lived outside of Philadelphia for three years when my children were young.. We loved the zoo and since we had very little money, this was our unchanging recreation on weekends. They let you bring in your lunch and so we packed one up on Sundays and of we would go to visit our favorite animals.. Candida.. The trip is starting to sound exciting, although I still do not understand the impulse to include Sally. She sounds like such a pill and bullies Candida.. Or maybe Candida wants to be bullied. After all her husband seems to have done that.

EmmaBarb--

Thank you so much for the mention of The Power of Art series on PBS. I just checked it out and it looks so much like something I would really enjoy.

We're teetering this morning, on the brink of our grand adventure. I've been pouring over maps and links on the Internet, reveling in your astute comments, I'll be back with some thoughts or what passes for them on them, and I REALLY REALLY like being here this morning. I've now read the next section, but theoretically we're still in the last, and it's quite telling I think: the plans and the actual joyful trip. Quite a difference in this next section in more than one way, don't you think? Or did you? I am quite interested to see what you think tomorrow.

The dividing of the book for discussion was just serendipity or maybe an omen but it sure does work, I'm excited about that, too.

Any last minute thoughts on the two previous sections?

I keep forgetting to thank Ginny, BellaMarie, and Emma...and...and... for your guidance to links and associated programs of interest...The Power of Art! The video interview!! The pictures of Naples!!! Etc. Etc. Etc.

Thank you all.

My favorite character in the first two section is Mrs. Jerrold. Then Sally. Yup, Sally.

More on both next week.

Dandy

Good morning and Happy Father's Day to you Olle!

Ginny...Thank you for the astounding pictures. I can only dream to see those places in person one day.

Chistine...Thank you for the link to the video interview. I think you are right Margaret Drabble is keeping much of this book close to her heart and MUM is the word. She has told us what inspired her and the purpose and theme of the book and that's all we are getting. We are the little snoops who are looking for more to this mystery, if indeed it is a mystery at all. Nancy Drew aint got nuttin on us! (forgive me for the poor grammar, my humor took over.)

Hats...In my earliest of posts, I said I was NOT going to get involved with reading the Aeneid, I would leave that to others. Well...how on earth could I not? I think Margaret and Candida enticed us and dared us to try to not go there. Trickery indeed.

I have read our upcoming assignment and can not wait to hear what you all have to say.

But for today I will sit back enjoy my hubby's special day in the heat inside and out. Our air conditioning unit is broken and at 12:30 a.m. we got the news from the overtime charge repairman it can NOT be fixed and must be replaced. YUCK!! But, like I told my hubby today, we will forge on and this Father's Day will not be ruined.... if you have lemons make lemonade!!!

Oh and one last thing...these omens are starting to freak me out. Now if someone says they just won the lottery or got an unexpected windfall I am going to start believing in the fates. I guess it would help for me to go buy a ticket if I would like for that someone to be ME!

While we're waiting and pondering the ins and outs of whether Aeneas was a "shit" hahahaa, I'm startled to find quite a bit on Dido beyond the ancient story.

Thank you for the nice remarks on the illustrations, I'm glad you like them, we're about to be inundated with them. Ahahahah For a reason. Haahaha

But here's stuff I did not know, apparently the story has been repeated in opera and in paintings forever. I found a few! Here is

Guerins' conception of the meeting of Aeneas and Dido. I really like Nathaniel Hollands:

which is in the Tate, flashy he is. There are quite a few by Batoni if you look him up, some poignant ones of her sitting on the cliff watching him depart.

Here is

Dido in a Medieval text.

Dido and Aeneas, by Henry Purcell, is England's oldest opera. First performed in 1689

Hear some of the opera

Great stuff from From Passion of Dido

Christopher Marlowe's 1594 play Dido, Queen of Carthage appropriates much of Virgil's language and characterization while amplifying one theme central to Marlowe's writing: desire. As in The Aeneid, capricious gods guide the ill-fated romance, but this Dido falls for Aeneas even before Cupid influences her. She shows Aeneas a portrait gallery of her rejected suitors not as a demonstration of her self-control but of her desirability. Swept up by desire, she offers him her late husband's robes, her throne, rule of her city, untold riches, and her body. Torn between love and hate for Aeneas, "truest Dido" kills herself in a deadly variation on the desire that first drew her to him.

When the story of Dido made its way into opera, portrayals focused more on questions of female desire than of female leadership.

In La Didone, Busenello and Cavalli's 1641 opera, Dido undergoes a crisis of conscience. Shamed by her desire, she repents her unreasonable behavior. In a stunning departure from The Aeneid, this Dido marries her suitor Iarbas instead of killing herself! Busenello was a member of the Incogniti, an intellectual society of Venetian noblemen obsessed with chastity, and the opera reflects their skepticism and moral outrage on the subject of female lust. The happy ending demonstrated that a sinful woman could mend her ways. When Dido marries and returns to reason, she restores her society to health.

[In the above link you can also see :Pompeo Batoni's Aeneas Leaving Dido. And Alexander Runciman's Dido Watching the Departing Ships}

The last great depiction of Dido follows this emotional bent.

Hector Berlioz's 1858 opera Les Troyens (The Trojans) creates a world uninfluenced by gods, with Aeneas urged to sail to Italy by ghosts and offstage cries of "Italy!" Following the text of his idol Virgil closely, Berlioz nonetheless follows his other idol, Shakespeare, in deep psychological characterization

Dido has appeared less frequently since Berlioz, warranting only brief mentions by Matthew Arnold, T.S. Eliot, and Thomas Hardy. African writers and female poets are beginning to rediscover her as a resonant figure for questions of power and love,

Akiva Fox is a second-year dramaturgy student at the A.R.T./MXAT Institute for Advanced Theatre Training.

I love this discussion. The book is interesting but I think the discussion is even more interesting than the book. People have brought in other sources/websites, personal experiences and wonderful paintings. Every time I check in, I am surprised at all that is part of the discussion. I am delighted and I just want to thank all of you for making this such a wonderful experience.

Thank you, Lizabeth, you are so kind, that kind of thought makes everybody else happy too. And I agree, I am so enjoying everything everybody brings here, not least the great opinions and memories. I'm so enjoying this new section as well and tomorrow we'll hear what you all think of it!

Colkot, another 7! Seven Stars, I have no idea, but I see the Pleiades mentioned, interesting!!

Hats, have you become Ruby ? Shape shifting before our eyes? I nearly dropped what remains of my teeth!!! Suddenly a ruby appeared!

Hahaaha

Another omen!!

Good points BellaMarie and Ssthor on the character of Candida. I agree also BellaMarie we care about her a lot.

And also Barbara, great points again and interesting point on the disabled people continually mentioned, too, like a thread. I think they are a red herring but I could be DEAD wrong.

There is a blind seer in the Odyssey, Teiresias, but I'm not remembering one in the Aeneid, does anybody? Is Teiresias in the Aeneid? He's the one Odysseus went into the Undeworld to consult!

Christine, thank you for the Drabble video giving away nothing! Hahahaah As you say it's up to US but I bet we get it!! I stopped at that "Maybe I am after all a favoured daughter." I don't know what that means. "After all" seems to indicate she did not feel favored before this. Are there sisters or brothers? Or?

I'm very much enjoying all the points about Dido and Aeneas, something that people have been cheerfully arguing about for centuries. I really would like to know how Lombardo translates that. Maybe I can find his Aeneid in the next week or so.

Mippy, the child abuse was an example of outré thinking that would need to be backed up by examples in the text, nobody actually thinks that. I don't think. I have to say tho in reading this next section there ARE some parallels to the Aeneid, but I am not sure why. Welcome back!

Barbara! Good for you looking beyond the fact that an article on this book exists on the Internet to find out who Marisa was! The Internet is full of pseudo experts, some of them with VERY fine and impressive websites, spouting some of the most obnoxious trash. I always, myself, like to try to find, if it’s a controversial subject, something with .edu in the url. Then perhaps I won't get the ramblings of a man who thought he had been taken up in a space ship by aliens as "proof!" (True story but you had to follow a bread crumb trail that would make Hansel cry to suss him out finally. Consider the source, I always say. That goes for Wikipedia, too, which is truth by acclamation. Truthiness.

But I'm lazy and often in a hurry and I admit I use Wikipedia when they have illustrations I might need. Facts I have to leave to others.

Carolyn, good points about what Drabble may be intending with Candida, I think "heroine" was used for "protagonist," as was said above.

I agree Hats (Ruby?) that Drabble does have a reason for constantly bringing the Aeneid into this other than the object of a trip.

EmmaBarb, I am so glad you're enjoying it! Yes I think that must be the Sibyl in black, I guess that's before she was 700 years old in a cage.

Wissahickon Creek I think is or PennyPack Park is where my father used to take the car on Saturdays and wax it and everybody else who had a car in the late '40's did too. I am not sure about Audubon, that does sound so familiar. There was a park along the road which led out to Bristol from the end of the El, and it was a high steep hill and we all used to take our sleds there, I do remember that.

Oh eerie on dropping the book and then finding your place. Do de doooo doooo! Hahaha Twilight Zone time.

Stephanie, you too. I remember the Zoo well, I bet they don't let you buy a bag of peanuts now to feed the elephants!

We must have an Ol Philly Reunion and sit under the eagle or eat in the cafeteria in Wannamaker's, now..Lord and Taylor, now bought out by Macy's I think and hear the great organ.

And reminisce! I'll buy you an egg cream! We all live so far away now, tho.

I just found today a photo of my parents outside their house with the number clearly on the door and it's not the number of my own house here!

Oh I like Dandy's Sunday Dandy Question: who is your favorite character in this first part? Dandy likes Mrs. Jerrold and then Sally. .

Hahha BellaMarie, another Aeneid reader!! Hahhaa Well if nothing else she has acquainted us with an important epic!

Well tomorrow's the big day! Can't wait to hear what you THINK about Week III, Part II: Italian Journey up to page 224 but not including She seeks for the Sibyl and waits for her dismissal

…

Ginny: I'm looking forward to it. You mean Week III, Part II, right? Italian Journey?

Right!! I better fix that, can't have people going wild spilling the final beans!

In the closing chapters of Part One Candida looks back and says how mean and depressed she was in her journalling. This proves my point that Candida was using her journal to vent the thoughts and feelings she did not want to vent outwardly and thereby hurt others. She thinks a lot about not hurting others. She is basically a nice caring person.

Carolyn

PS- Olle would you be alarmed if you could read your wife's mind? Or after reading Candida's journal, would you take any unspoken feelings she may have in your stride as being part of a period of transition. I am asking this because you are the only male in this discussion as far as I know and men, as we now know think entirely differently from women in many areas.

Sorry folks about repeating myself. I did an edit and somehow or other I repeated the first part of my post! I must be getting old! Ruth rushed me out the door to a sale while I was posting so thats how I could not fix it in time. I just noticed now!

carolyn

Ginny, I started to try a new name. I didn't feel comfortable. Hats is part of my real name. That's me ole hats. When I changed it, I really felt insecure. Thank you for all the new paintings.

Hi Emmabarb(hats waving!)

Ginny ~ I just love you putting photos in the heading about the different things as we read them. And, those wonderful images we're seeing helps make it seem a tiny bit like we're on this Italian journey also.

I saw the Pleaides, the Seven Sisters mentioned. Where is that ?

(p. 203)I'm looking for Turner's painting of "Dido Building Carthage" - a small toy boat floats on a wide shiny path of water. A group of brown boys watch it, as they perch on the brink of the river. (National Gallery). I have always enjoyed Turner
Edit: This is it "The Rise of the Carthagian Empire" by "J.M.W. Turner (1775-1851) but have never seen this one. Turner is one of the artists in the "Power of Art" PBS series.

...the "polimpsest" of her memory ?
...a final "digestif" ...sips from a tiny little glass (a pony is what we call them). What do you think Candida was sipping ?
I went to dinner at an Italian restaurant this evening with friends and had my favorite dessert "Zabaglione".
Hi hats !
Emma

Yummy! That sounds delicious. I can't roll my tongue pass the "Z." Emmabarb, just saw your link. Thanks! I will look for Turner in the series. I see you have a link for him. When I think of Turner, I think of water and darkness. Is this wrong, Ginny and/or Emmabarb?

My link for Turner isn't working. I think it's because of the quotation marks in the front of the link. Emmabarb, is that the problem? The painting appeared quickly, his name link, bio, is the problem.

hats ~ another spelling might be Zabaione ? anyway it's is so yummmmy

Try this please
J.M.W. Turner (1775-1851)
have no idea why the previous link didn't work ? He is one of the artists in the "Power of Art" by Prof. Schama PBS series which premiers tonight. I think he'll probably be aired later on though if it goes by the book.

"We must have an Ol Philly Reunion and sit under the eagle or eat in the cafeteria in Wannamaker's, now..Lord and Taylor, now bought out by Macy's I think and hear the great organ."

And reminisce! I'll buy you an egg cream! We all live so far away now, tho. " I vaguely remember Penney Pack too.

I am enjoying this new section so much. I like Valeria. I don't know how I will feel about Anna Palumbo, the new guest. I am on pg. 236 and nothing much is given away about her. She seems quiet and shy. Well, she is among total strangers.

Emmabarb, what do you know about Paul Klee? His name is mentioned in this part. Yes, yes, the link is perfect. Thank you. Now both links are working. I need to hum the Twilight Zone music like Ginny did in her post. Peculiar things are happening.

Turner's skies are beautiful, very bright. I feel like the light is touching me. I am glad he is included in the series.

Ginny, this word puzzled me. bradisismo or, in English, bradyseism.

"You would not think, sitting here, that this place was sinking slowly but inevitably and irreversibly under the water...It is not the new fashion of global warming that will sink Pozzuoli. It is an ancient natural phenomenon known as....bradyseism."

She keeps referring to Hegel...he's fond of lists and metiplicity. As I'm not up on the Philosophical Sciences, I had to see who he was G.W.F. Hegel (1770-1831). Also found Hegelianism--Catholic Encyclopedia.
Margaret Drabble is deep.

hats ~ I did see mentioned (p.219) Paul Klee's sojourn in Kairovan (Anna Palumbo has been following in his footsteps). Klee is not one of my favorite artists.

As hats said, I too read that about Pozzuoli sinking slowly under water, a natural phenomenon known as bradisismo: related to volcanic activity. The state of Maryland where I live was once under the sea.

Emmabarb, I have seen the mention of Aids in this section, The Italian Journey. I think AIDS was mentioned in the earlier section too. The Lighthouse, I think, housed AIDS patients??? It is The London Lighthouse. I am thinking someone in the group of travellers might have Aids?? That would certainly come as a shock. Just a tall guess. I am reading along with the group. I haven't read pass The Italian Journey.

"This is a tale, says Mrs. Jerrold, from the era before gay rights and AIDS..."

Goethe is mentioned again too. Do we have a link for Goethe? Thank you for the link about Hegel.

Hi everyone - I've been preoccupied elsewhere for a bit and am now just catching up the posts. As usual the links are great - thanks to Ginny and all for making this such a great discussion...Seniornet is a winner.

Mrs. Jerrold will do me as a favourite character anytime. I don't care for Sally at all but have some compassion for her. She is an unhappy woman.

Looking forward to the next segment.

Oh MY!! What a gorgeous Founding of Carthage!!!! Thank you EmmaBarb, that's incredible, I don't know enough about Turner, Hats, to answer, I thought he did landscapes, so if he's one of the 8 artists profiled, I need to watch!

Thank you Gum, and Emma and Hats, so MANY great questions to start us off on our new trip. Hahahah Ruby Hats, I thought we had something going here!

Note that in this section tho, we're not just tourists, however, not like you and I would go, we're pilgrims. We might need to ask for what? What are we seeking, what IS a pilgrim?

I also enjoyed watching the video interviews, quite short and interesting.

Carolyn, good point on Candida revealing herself in the journal and now we've left the journal behind, so we have a new narrator, an Omniscient?? Third Person Narrator (all knowing) who can look into ALL of them and know what they're feeling, or can he? She? I am quite struck by this section. I am struck by the tone, the humor.

How would you all characterize the TONE of this section?

But what do YOU all think of it?? We've embarked for Tunisia and Italy! Nach Cuma!!

I thought since we are all travelers of a sort you'd like to see some of the things in this chapter.

"El Djem, the third largest roman ampitheatre in the world, was, he said, well worth the visit…: (page 154).

"For their allotted three days they gaze…"Page 195) We don't know specifically the sights they saw. Here is El Djem as was mentioned in the travel plans.

Kind of spectacular, wouldn't you say? Worth mentioning?

more...

"And here at last is the sign to Arco Felice, and its welcoming hotels. They will soon be checking in." (Page 224)

THIS is the Arco Felice, it's an old Roman arch.

It's on an old road off the main highways. The arch

is slap over the road and you go thru it so fast you almost miss it. Wonderful slide show and information on the Arco Felice.

Here is a map showing the position of the Arco Felice (red arrow) with Cumae just off to the left and Solfatara is at the center bottom.. The sort of yellow grids beginning on the bottom right are the suburbs of Naples, so you can see where the places are.

Map of Arco Felice area: Click to Enlarge

The Arco Felice is a landmark that dates back to ancient times. It was built by the Romans in the 1st century A.D. during the construction of the Domitziana. (the road that connected Naples and Rome). Because the Romans always tried to make their roads straight and level, they did not always choose the easiest path. In the case of the Arco Felice, they would not go around the hill nor would they go over it. They went straight through it! The arch was constructed to reinforce the hillside where the road cut through…more at link..

Here is more on Pozzouli, the birthplace of Sophia Loren, which you can see in the bottom to the left of Solfatara. It was called by the ancients Puteoli.

Puteoli was an Italian city of Roman times on the coast of Campania, on the north shore of a bay running north from the Bay of Naples. The Roman colony there was established in 194 BC. Pozzuoli was the great emporium for the Alexandrian grain ships. The apostle Paul is traditionally supposed having landed here on his way to Rome, from which it was distant 170 miles. Here he would have tarried for seven days (Acts 28:13, 14) and with his companions began their journey, by the "Appian Way", to Rome.

Puteoli was the location for a spectacular stunt (in 37 AD) by the eccentric Caligula, who on becoming Emperor ordered a temporary floating bridge to built using ships as pontoons, stretching for over two miles from the town to the famous neighboring resort of Baiae, across which he proceeded to ride his horse, in defiance of an astrologer's prediction that he had "no more chance of becoming Emperor than of riding a horse across the Gulf of Baiae".

I am really pleased at where our divisions have fallen because, to me, there is a lot of difference in the sections. What did you think of this one? A Euro for your thoughts! Hahahaaa

Oh I like Valeria.. and it seems thus far that Anais has some hidden agendas that are quite interesting.. I am not quite finished with this section. Generally I get on early in the morning and then we tour various areas during the day. The wifi in this park is limited and thus it is hard to get on later in the day. Her Italy is quite different from the one I saw last year, but then different people take quite different things from Italy.. Candida is finally beginning to shed Sally.. Who is even more of a pain on the trip than home.

Stephanie, "Her Italy is quite different from the one I saw last year, but then different people take quite different things from Italy.." Yes. Hold that thought? I have a new theory. Like most of my theories, it may not pan out (maybe all of my theories?) hahaha but I have resolutely refused to read the last section in hopes that this time I will finally understand!

I am so glad you can get on while touring the country, amazing!

There are so many things to comment on.

First of all, the journal has ended. We have a new narrator. Third person but not omniscient. We do not know what is in the minds of all the other characters. I think this is called "third person limited." Please...I welcome corrections if I am mistaken.

But then on page 176 we are allowed into the mind of Mrs. Jerrold and what comes to her but: "Did she ever listen to those tapes? She has never made reference to them." The tapes. So there was probably something on them that Mrs Jerrold wanted her to hear. Why couldn't Candida hear it?

Then on page 183, back to the Aeneid: Aeneus is called "one of the great betrayers of history..." This goes back to the quote which referred to Aeneas as "a shit" and I commented that I didn't understand why because he was, after all, ordered to leave by the gods. But here it is, the justification. " Unlike Mark Anthoy, he will obey his destiny and sacrifice love for glory." So Aeneas had free will. He did not have to obey the gods (according to this interpretation). He could have stayed and chose not to. So he becomes "one of the great betrayers of history" or in simpler terms "a shit."

More later.

Oh great thoughts, Lizabeth? Limited? Omniscient? Super points here.

One of the great betrayers of history? Well Dante certainly didn't put Aeneas in the lowest section of Hell, he saved that for Brutus and Cassius and Judas. Is anybody familiar enough with The Inferno to know where he put Aeneas? IF he did, Aeneas being somewhat of a mythological figure not proven. Love the Inferno. You can see where he got a lot of his ideas, too.

I was thinking that the narrator knew what they all were thinking, but I need to read that again. At the end of this section Drabble sort of switches gears and almost plays with the reader: something like IF Candida is thinking of XXX she does not show it, sort of... I don't know what you call it. I thought it was quite striking. I'm off out of town to a birthday luncheon, see yo uall later today.

The tone has shifted radically: from rain to sun, from stasis to movement, from inner angst to jolly bonding. The movie music should change from Mahler to, oh, I don't know, something peppy and upbeat. It is much more of a pleasure to read this part. Candida is actually happy!

Yet there is a knell, in the background, of death. And it gets louder as the Italian journey draws to a close. "The solution to the problem is death" (p. 210). "She is too happy now to think of death" (p. 214). "If it were now to die, ‘twere now to be most happy" (p. 222--from Othello).

I can't seem to get out the door, this is REALLY it.

I absolutely agree, this is so much more a pleasure to read.

Maybe we should ask ourselves WHY is she happy?

Super noticing the drum beat of death underneath and the Othello, Christine!~

I MUST leave!

Sort of an Andrew Marvell's

"But at my back I always hear
Time's winged chariot hurrying near;"

(To His Coy Mistress)

Mea culpa, Christine...in not associating your name when giving recognition for the video interviews link. Mea culpa. And that is the extent of my Latin. <blush>

From the video interviews I noticed that Drabble looks a little like what I can see of the woman on the cover of my book, the one with the coffee cup. It's in the set of her mouth. Anyone else get that impression? I know this isn't an autobiography.

Dandy

Okay, I'm the detail person vs. the big picture seer.

p. 174 "Their disposition upon the aircraft is as follows: Julia Jordan has a window seat. Next to her sits her admirer, Cynthia Barclay. Anais Al-Sayyab on this row, takes the aisle.

"In the row behind, Sally Hepburn takes the window seat. Next to her, in the middle, sits Candida Wilton. Next to Candida, Mrs. Jerrold takes the aisle."

Perfectly placed according to their personalities! The watchers in the group have the window. The distinctive women of action have the aisle seat in case action is needed, leadership taken. And the more accommodating women are squished in the middle seat.

Question: Why are Mrs. Jerrold and Candida disconcerted about the aeroplane's name?

Dandy, who got distracted by dahlias needing stalking/tomato vines needing redirections into their cages and didn't read very much this weekend

So off to Italy we shall go....I am so excited! Ginny those pics are fantastic! Oh how I anticipate learning about my homeland and travel with this eccentric group of ladies.

I especially love this..... pg.167 "From generation to generation, they imprint their shapes upon the human heart."

Then the narrator goes on to describe how the land makes you feel:

"you breathe more freely, your fearful lungs fill gently with the soft air, you no longer huddle and shiver and wrap yourself into your own arms and clench yourself back into your own self., you no longer need to dread the threshold between the body and the world, for all is mild, all flows easily, all is lightness. Your shoulders are without burden, your eyes are clear, your skin is soft, and your feet in their sandals are free. You stretch out your arms, you can see your toes. The sky is vast and blue, the sand is golden, and the horizon shimmers with pledge and with promise. You know that land.

That magical land awaits them now."

This is how I would feel and imagine it to be like entering Heaven.

Who is the new narrator? He/she is now like someone sitting back and telling us all their actions, feelings, thoughts etc. Who can this be, who knows them so well?

My oh my, so much is being revealed in the first pages of this section its like I can't keep up. This narrator is saying so much... pg.168

"Queen Dido gazes from the battlements across the centuries for their approach, for she knows that they remember her. Remember me, she cried, and against so many odds, through so much forgetfulness, through the death of so many empires, they do remember her. They keep their tryst."

Is the narrator leading us to believe this group of seven knew Dido and had a fate to see her again? Are these seven spirits returning to the after life? Are the seven reincarnations and Dido is excited for the fact they remember her?.....Oh dear a thousand questions are going through my mind.

pg.169. "Has jealous husband Andrew detained her?" Why would jealous Andrew want to detain Sally? Why think Andrew would care one way or the other? Why consider him jealous?

pg.169 the narrator says, "Even Sally's friend Candida, the friend who asked her to join them, does not seem to know why she has done so. There is some strange unnatural compulsion binding the two women from Sufflok, connecting the spinster, Sally, and Candida, the abandoned wife."

What does the narrator mean when he asks will Sally play the game?

Only three pages into Part Two of the book and its like fireworks going off all over the place!!!! I need to digest all of this. Tell me what you all think while I give all of this much more deliberation. My first and foremost question is....Who is the new narrator?

I do not know how to insert pics but this site will let you view the art work. http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/picture-of-month/displayPicture.asp?id=25&venue=7

"Salammbo 1899 by Maurice Ferray...Artwork Ferrary's work was inspired by the French novelist Flaubert's 1862 work of the same name, which describes the wars between the Carthaginians and the barbarians in the 3rd century BC. 'Salammbo' the daughter of the Carthaginian leader is shown entwined by a serpent, which provides her with sacred protection. Thus protected 'Salammbo' went out to the barbarian camp to retrieve the famous veil, the loss of which had caused defeat for the Carthaginians.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salammb%C3%B4_(novel)

Salammbô by Alfons Mucha (1896)Salammbô (1862) is an historical novel by Gustave Flaubert, which interweaves historical and fictional characters. The action takes place immediately before and during the Mercenary Revolt against Carthage in the third century BC. Flaubert's main source was Book I of Polybius's Histories. It was not a particularly well-studied period of history and required a great deal of work from the author, who enthusiastically left behind the dreary subject-matter of Madame Bovary for this lurid tale of blood-and-thunder.

Plot summary "After the First Punic War, Carthage is unable to fulfil promises made to its army of mercenaries, and finds itself under attack. The fictional title character, a priestess and the daughter of Hamilcar Barca, an aristocratic Carthaginian general, is the object of the obsessive lust of Matho, a leader of the mercenaries. With the help of the scheming freed slave, Spendius, Matho steals the sacred veil of Carthage, the Zaïmph, prompting Salammbô to enter the mercenaries' camp in an attempt to steal it back."

As if we do not already have enough to consider with the Aeneid we now have Drabble throwing Salammbo at us from yet another novel interweaving historic and fictional characters. Phewwwww...me thinks this section is going to blow me mind!!

they liked descriptions of our domiciles... although I DO travel, it's not one of my favorite things to do.. and IF I have to go my idea is to go first of business class where I can be looked after. So... I was sitting in my kitchen this morning, looking at the ethnic mix on my walls.. there's an old poster of my school,Godolphin & Latymer for Girls with the most ridiculous prices for tuition and quoted in old fashioned guineas, a limited edition of a Story Map of Poland, beautifully done, a picture of my late husband at 75 done as the lead headline for the NY Daily News.On the soffit behind me are 7 plates custom framed in black.They are papercuts(wycinanki) which I bought as a summer student in Poland in 1978. Four of them have stylized birds & the other abstract designs. My bedroom has my first needlepoint picture framed in red hanging on the wall.. it's a Smithsonian copy of flowers. Carrying on past the bathroom next door which was remodelled. There are a couple of Dolphin tiles included on the walls... alumnae from my old school are called "Old Dolphins. In the dining room area are decorative cabinets which hold severalPolish dolls in costumes which we had used with our dance groups.Also the Easter lamb and some wooden pisanki(Easter eggs) there are a number of the delicately decorated REAL eggs which are carefully put away. Also put lovingly away are Christmas decorations made from blown eggs, walnuts, and/or colored paper. There are bookshelves crammed full,one has Polish encyclopedias and other classic literature. On the walls are hung several hammered metal plaques with scenes from Poland. The piece de resistance is a framed watercolor of my late husband wearing his Krakowian costume. The likeness is uncanny. Oh and one wall holds the awards that the family received over the years. There are family photos, and a corner etagere holds more pictures & knicknacks. The coffee table is full of a container of green plants at the moment. The computer room/library is untidy and full of books.. also the closet in there holds some of the projects such as knitting, needlepoint and embroidery which are unfinished at this time. However,close by my front door is a framed bellpull/tree of life embroidery which I completed and had framed... I am not able to travel at this time............... so will continue the book(which I've finished) and keep up with the rest of you. Colkots

Is it Drabble herself, going in like old play writers did to put everything in order. No, the confusion grows deeper. And I can see that you to are just as confused as me.

Barbara: Candida is absolutely full of a (dry) humour and ironic on her own expenses. (How much easier to say it in Swedish: Självironisk).

BellaMarie: About heroines. She seems to me like a revealing, unmasking woman from an Austen novel, and the Aeneas-track is so full of similarities like defeat, betrayal, escape, struggles and desires to fulfil theirs destinies and reach the other side = fame, power, glory or maybe just self-respect. It is a pilgrimage! Thanks for the Fathers Day-greeting!

Kiwi lady: Aren’t we - all seniors - finding that time is spare and all the many unanswered questions that haunt us must be revealed. And of course is Candida a nice caring woman.

EmmaBarb: I think she (Drabble) is using the word palimpsest to show that there are memories beneath the latest memories and you can scrape carefully to see them again. A little more prosaic metaphor could be like an onion that you peel off and underneath every layer lays another. When in Italy the waiter served us a “digestivo” after dinner, often together with the bill. A sweet liquor like Amaretto, to avoid indigestion, both nice and healthy, I think.

Christine: Thank you, thank you, and thank you for the absolutely wonderful video of Margret Drabble. But she isn’t giving a clue why Candidas relations to her parents are so distant.

Ginny, last but not least! I admire you and your gigantic/heroic work, the searching for more and better pictures, artworks an related articles. That’s impressing! Are you real? Are you just one person? Aren’t we (and me in particular) lucky to have you as our guide? Yes, very much so. And yes, my favourite character is Candida and secondly Mrs. Jerrold.

Olle

I like to think of Candida and the other travellers sitting around to study their Virgil texts. Even Valeria joins in.

"Naturally, all the original Virgilians have brought their texts with them, and they offer to share them round with those who do not have them...They will dine together at eight, and then do a little Latin."

Have any of you ever taken a Literary Journey following in the footsteps of some literary great while spending quiet time reading that person's writings? I bet it is a wonderful feeling.

Ginny, I love the photo of the Sacred Groves in Cumae, Italy.

What is the difference between just a journey and a pilgrimage? Is a pilgrimage necessarily religious in nature?

Hats- I don't think a Pilgrimage is always religious in nature. For instance many of our young people make their pilgrimage to Turkey- to Gallipoli where so many of our young men died in the Great war. There is a huge commemoration service held there each year. The Great war and what happened at Gallipoli is considered to be the birth pangs of our nation as we know it now. We were part of the British Empire then but we became a nation in our own right after Gallipoli and wanted our full Independance. We grew up at Gallipoli. The young people sit all night at the Gallipoli remembrance site near Anzac cove. There are huge screens where they are given snippets of history about Gallipoli and the Anzacs. The crowd becomes quieter and quieter as the night goes on and then as the dawn comes the services begin. (There is a joint service with Australia and then the two nations peel off and go to their own memorials and have another service) That is our pilgrimage.

I'm a very slooooow reader. And this close reading is such a treat. But boy is this schedule slow!

I couldn't help finishing. I wasn't able to read a book with any comfort for two years--the first due to cataracts and most of the last due to swelling from the surgery. So now I want to read everything I can squeeze into my schedule. But I enjoy reading all your posts and witnessing the fun Drabble has playing with our minds. And I'll continue reading to the end. Also, I plan to re-read some of the Aeneid; it's been about forty plus years.

Don't scream!, but this has been so addictive, I wish we could read another Drabble book soon. Especially since we are getting onto her wily ways.

The graphics and links are wonderful. Thanks, Ginny, and everyone for the hard work.

GINNY:, Thanks so much for introducing this book and for being such an inspiring and enthusiastic leader!! And thanks to all of you posting for your helpful insights and interesting links. I am so enjoying this book and its discussion.

I can see Candida growing out of her frozen state and I do like her. Of course, Mrs Jerrold is a big favorite of mine, you really have to like Julia and Cynthia whereas I don't think I would want to put up with Sally. Anais is very intriguing, pretty exotic in this group. You wonder whether or not she initially found Candida a little too tame for her. However tame little people don't make a practice of prison visitations, I don't think.

The idea of a Virgil themed trip is wonderful but where in reality would you find 6 people in your close acquaintance ready to pick up and go? We on the internet might be able to do that but Candida didn't have that option.

Oh, and Valeria!! She went to Cornell - that's where I went! And I do remember the fanatic bridge players that spent all their time in Willard Straight, cutting classes and playing bridge!!!

My husband and I went to Greece and Crete about 25 years ago. Flew on our own to Athens and then found a little mini-bus tour to the classic sites - including Delphi which involved a lot of clambering over rocks to see what we were told was the oracle's cave. I hope it was!

The opening paragraph on page 167 is pure poetry!! I love it!!

Those who can watch tonight on PBS will learn more about Turner. Meantime, I looked him up in the exquisite new 1995 edition of "The Story of Art" (E.H.Gombrich). After more than half a century, the updated version remains a favorite choice for introduction to art classes. The art is luscious. The text is wonderful--just enough. But if anyone's interested and can afford it, avoid the skinny approx. $19.95 version, available for students. The much more enjoyable edition is probably only about $15 more now.

The editors say Turner wanted to eclipse earlier landscape artists. In fact, when he left his work to the nation, he did so on condition that it would always be shown next to that of his contemporary, Claude Lorrain. Some ego. Lorrain's work is more serene. Turner added movement to landscapes. His exciting "Steamer in a Snowstorm" takes you into the storm and adds suggestions of a steamer ship, new for landscapes (seascapes?). This painting was even more daring than others and is not unlke impressionist painting fifty years later at the turn of the 20th century. At the same time, it's an example of the romanticism of the period--early 1800's.

Turner, as we've seen in posts, courtesy of Ginny, occasionally added classical and biblical figures to his landscapes.

I'm going to pretend I remembered all this while we watch the PBS art show tonight.

I am loving how dear old Sally is not happy with the new changing Candida. There truly are people who relish in another person's misery and weaknesses. What kind of friend would Sally be to actually say she was watching the deterioration of Candida's teeth with interest and pleasure. She realizes the new Candida is not going to allow her to victimize her any more.

How many of you ladies can identify with having a friend like Sally? I can say I have a sister like her. I was never more proud of myself than the day I freed myself of her torture by speaking up for myself. At the age of 51 I suppose it was time. She has not spoken to me since and I feel its her loss. Like Candida I refused to be the victim any longer.

What is it that makes a person want to treat someone else like this? And...What is it that makes a person allow it to happen? I often asked myself why I would allow it.

Do you think this could be the beginning to the end of their friendship, or can Sally adjust and accept the new Candida?

pg.172 "Candida herself, freed from her own whining monologue, is also aware that she has turned into another person, a multiple, polyphonic person, who need not pretend to be stupid.....

There is that word multiple I have been suspecting. I am excited to see the changes in Candida.

I am giving this "sell job" the old college try.

Since Olle's explanation of Candida' dry sense of humor, I am not feeling so out-on-the-limb-alone about seeing comedy in this novel. To me Sally is a comic relief character.

In Part I, as I mentioned earlier, I read the Candida/Sally luncheon as well-written humor (or humour). <g>

Part II begins with Sally being late for the aeorplane. (This spelling can be contagious.) Imagine what must go through a Master Manipulator's Mind who is late! She's huffing and puffing from the hurry-hurry-rush. Her luggage is cumbersome. Her travel outfit is horribly wrong. She has all kinds of lateness excuses, but "Nobody listens to these tedious details,..." p. 170

But! Sally recovers quickly to size-up her travel companions.

Oddly, Sally hasn't done her travel homework and seems content to be a "fellow traveller."

Is this a sign of a transformation? Will she "play the game" or be a co-operative travel companion?

I doubt it. I seriously doubt it. lol

Because! On the plane, Sally "is haranguing" to Cynthia about economic class passenger disease and is convinced that her specially requested vegetarian in-flight meal will have nuts. Plus Sally accidentally knocks over Candida's wine glass just before scolding the stewardess about the inefficiency of foreign airlines. Slapstick comedy? It plays that way in my brain. Re-read p. 177 picturing Lucy and Ethel in the I Love Lucy television program.

Just before I ended my reading...p. 179...Sally had been "hoping for a gigolo" minibus driver and guide. Sally, Sally, Sally.

I find Sally too, too funny on the page.

In my real life, well, I have a cousin like Sally. When I am unfortunate enough to be in the same room with her, I try to hide behind tall pieces of furniture or floor-to-ceiling drapes.

Dandy

In Part I Candida writes that Mrs. Jerrold (Mrs. not Ida Jerrold) is a fine woman, a widow, and won't boast about the famous people she has known. She wears "red lipstick, and green eyeshadow, and magenta earrings..." Mrs. Jerrold drinks her gin with water. Her house is full of antique treasures. Mrs. Jerrold misses the Virgil class, too. Ida Kemp was "once a poet."

We learn about Eugene Jerrold too: His Career and His Accomplishments.

pp. 172-172: In Part II, Mrs. Jerrold talks about her earlier trip to North Africa with Eugene. She describes him as a larger-than-life man. "He liked the expansive gesture. He liked to play the host." And Mrs. Jerrold had to hide their travel money so he wouldn't spend it on others, leaving them without funds.

p. 175” We learn that Mrs. Jerrold is reading a Virgil book by a famous author. Then just as quickly we read that Eugene once had a drink with said famous author.

Then this: "She (Mrs. Jerrold) was not listening to the nut rage of Sally Hepburn, for she has acquired over the years a finely tuned capacity for blotting out unnecessary noise."

p. 176: "She (Mrs. Jerrold) is thinking of her husband, Eugene, who had in their early days encouraged her to write, though his ebullience and energy had soon overwhelmed her and silenced her."

Broke my heart!

Did she finally in later years of marriage fine tune her "capacity for blotting out unnecessary noise" because of his personality? Squinting here. Try to read between the lines. (I know. I know. No textual proof. But I like squinting between the lines!)

Squinting: She is sparkling now as a widow. How did she fare as a wife?

Dandy

I think the term should be "quest" a long & difficult search, rather than pilgrimage which has a religious connotation.

I've had a wonderful evening listening to Adventures in Music on WFMT here which featured early Polish music, most of which was familiar to me. My late husband and I actually went on a holiday together to Poland just after it was freed. it WAS a quest. We went to places that one of us had visited(or lived in) and to places that neither of us had been to and wanted to visit.It was a revelation to us both.

Now I'm taking the rest of the evening off to watch the PBS programs on Art at 9.00 and 10.00pm here. Enjoy yourselves Colkots

Dandy-lion....You sold me on Sally Sally Sally...lololol I can picture Lucy and Ethel and oh what a mess they could get into. I do like Sally because everyone has a Sally in there life.

I loved your hiding behind the furniture to avoid the cousin. I never was clever enough to make myself invisible so the torpedoes flew all the time from my sister and the embarrassment at the expense of her laughter was unbearable. My children as they grew up asked, "Why does Aunt Sonta laugh with such a wide open mouth?" They grew up to realize that it was her way of making others feel so little.

Mrs. Jerrold is wiser beyond her years.

Okay...more of my notes.

On page 187 at the bottom of the page are more water images. "She (Candida) was always drawn to water." and etc. But most interesting is the last line of the first paragraph on page 188: "She breathes deeply, and feels herself dying into life." HUH? WHAT IS THAT? HELP!!!!!! How does someone die into life?

Then on page 191, the mysterious Anais who "is very taken with the look of Valeria. She has high hopes of the dusky Valeria, who will surely find a more health-giving and mind-enhancing bedtime treat than duty-free whisky." What is she referring to here? A drug? or Valeria herself??? So is Anais in love with drugs or women? drugs and women? none of the above?

And then to jump further into this section...Mr Barclay who "had a penchant for bad boys and the thrill of the gutter." (228) Okay, so is he gay? Is that the kind of marriage that they have? separate beds etc.? Cynthia comments: "And I couldn't stop him going off on his wanderings, could I? He had the right. He needed a bit of excitement. I told him it was mad to go under the arches but he wouldn't listen, would he? He couldn't help it."(237)

Or am I seeing homosexuality all over the place with no real evidence?

Hi, colkot. I watched too. Heady stuff with more to come.

Did I misunderstand, or did you say you have a photo of your husband from (the first page? of) the NY Daily News? If so, he must have been a major achiever. And you also. Can you tell us, if you will? OK, if not.

"Dying into life" into life could suggest baptism. All these water, baptism, and rebirth images are just one aspect of her writing that echoes D. H. Lawrence. She mentions him later. Some of her descriptions echo those in his books.

Why is Candida so attached to what her exhusband seems to think or feel.. Why was she so frightened to talk to her daughter, who seems to have liked her mother to call.. This last part of this section seems to get weird and eerie and foreshadowing a bad end.. Anais seems to be a piece of interesting work and yes I think also that Cynthias husband liked the rough trade.. Hmm.. a lot of stuff thrown at us in a few pages actually. So much plot in a small place.. Drabble drew out the first section so thoroughly, but now seems to race through this trip.

Barb.. my older son Corky Siemaszko (byline) is the re-writeman for the NY Daily News..so it was an easy gift to make. Famous...not really.. just people who were part of a community passing on the culture that they loved...two of my other children are working actors and their bios can be found on imdb.com. Just type in Casey or Nina Siemaszko to see the body of work they have done over the years. I did 6 years for SeniorNet as a coordinator for computer classes.Volunteerism is alive & well in our family to this day. Heady stuff the art programs on PBS. Unfortunately one after the other was too much for me..I regretably fell asleep during the Picasso episode. No matter, I saw an exhibition of his work while in High School at the Victoria & Albert Museum..Didn't care for it then and not much has happened to change my opinion..however he's been laughing all the way to the bank for years. Colkots.

I feel as though Drabble is doing a fine job in this second part too. I thought Candida's feelings about Bridge interesting. Candida says she thought playing card games "wicked." This tells a little about her life before Andrew. Candida might have come into her marriage with emotional baggage. I feel she might have come from a home with very strict parents or grandparents. Who else would tell her what was supposedly "wicked" and what was not "wicked."

Colkots yes, I like the word "quest" too. I am still thinking about the word pilgrimage too. For some of these ladies, this might become in some way a religious experience, a conversion full of quiet zeal.

Barbara65, "Dying into life..." when I read that line, I stopped. First thought what does it mean? Then, pow! when you wrote "baptism," I said that's it. When we are baptized symbolically, we die to our old life and take up a new one. So, this is, maybe, a pilgrimage.

Lizabeth, thank you for bringing up the line "Dying to life..." I like your reaction. I had the same reaction.

I am so charmed by this section of the book. Just when we may have been growing tired of the introspection of the previous segments, we get this outward looking section with great thumbnail sketches of the "seven sisters." I loved Candida's idea that they do a little Virgil in the evenings. It also worked so well that she has moved from lonely solitaire to bridge with her friends. Within the framework of the Virgil tour, each of the ladies seems to have a little private agenda and that seems very realistic to me.

I've never had much of an interest in classical literature like the Aeneid but I can imagine going on a Jane Austen tour with a small group of friends. Wouldn't that be bliss--to visit sites from her life and works by day and read and discuss the books in the evenings after dinner! Women travelling together has become a significant segment of the travel industry. I recently bought a magazine devoted to this called "Girlfriend Getaways" published by Frommer.

Ssthor, what a beautiful post, every bit of it. Bellemarie, I hate to say it. I just can't see Sally as Ethel. Ethel had a fun, outgoing personality. She loved her neighbor and friend, Lucy. Sally??? I think Sally can have a mean spirit. I hate the part when she forces her way in Candida's room. I wanted Candida to get the nerve to kick her out! She's clumsy and bumbly but not in a fun way. She would get on my last nerve. Maybe my feelings for her will change in the next section.

I hate for the book to end. Like Emmabarb, I would love to read The Sea Lady by Margaret Drabble.

"My husband and I went to Greece and Crete about 25 years ago. Flew on our own to Athens and then found a little mini-bus tour to the classic sites - including Delphi which involved a lot of clambering over rocks to see what we were told was the oracle's cave. I hope it was! "

How exciting!

I am so enjoying this journey because we are getting such a descriptive image of each person. This is where Margaret Drabble reels us in to care about them. I feel a setup which makes me feel I am going to get emotionally attached just to get a big let down. (Bellamarie)

I felt the same way while reading this section. Now, we are beginning to know these women. They are becoming our friends. We care whether the trip is a success. Do we know what each woman is expecting to take from the journey?

I only read a chapter. Here are the random notes I scribbled in my reading journal.

p. 181: The women make first evening plans to go out to a cafe, to shop, to eat (Sally), to stay put and read (guess who?) "Candida does not know what she wants. She wants everything. She wants it all."

Oh, happy, happy. Joy, joy.

Note: Ida Jerrold not Mrs.

p. 186: Valeria approves of Mrs. Jerrold teaching the Virgilians bridge. "One can never have too many holds on happiness."

Question to Me: What is my next hold on happiness?

General Comment: I am humbled by the classical scholarship of Margaret Drabble, Mrs. Jerrold, and Valeria. Humbled.

p. 187: "Sally, Valeria knows by instinct, is not good at demarcations. She is a born intruder."

What a hoot! I like Valeria!...clear thinker

Dandy

Dandy, my feelings exactly.

"General Comment: I am humbled by the classical scholarship of Margaret Drabble, Mrs. Jerrold, and Valeria. Humbled."

Do you always keep a reading journal?

Thank you all! You are so kind and I am glad you are enjoying the illustrations, because they are about all I can think to say at this point. hahhaa BUT Everybody's got a theory at this point, and those who have read to the end are silent. Don't fall silent, help us figure out what she's DOING here, in this section, to us and to the character, because she IS doing something, I truly believe.

I've loved your posts! Christine, SSthor, I agree, completely different tone, a "charmed and blessed place," an "enchanted spot." (page 226) and the "Seven Sisters" (gloss 210) see the "promised land" (page 224). She even gets to be "Candy" on page 209 and I think Anais is definitely into something, "…and suspects that Anais may be pursuing some private trade of her own." (page 196).

They are bonding, telling stories, having a ball, UNTIL they are recalled back to life.

WHY is Candida now so happy?

Anybody care to take a guess? They seem, to me, to spend more time bonding and talking to each other than anything else.

I also, Ssthor, love the idea of the evening Vergil classes. It sounds PERFECT, and joyful.

Certainly a congenial group.

I have never read The Death of Virgil, have any of you?

Stories of TRUST, they all share stories of TRUST and risk, why are those in there? Quite long sharing. What did you get from each?

Humor, "Candida has acquired a little Dutch courage from a glass of grappa, " so she can call her daughter in Dutch Amsterdam. hahaha page 239.

A new life. Images of water and a new rebirth: they have high hopes:

The last sentence of the last section before Italian Journey IS.. "So my ring lies drowned in the shallow deep." (page 163). A new rebirth of life from the water for Candida!

What did you make of her phone call to her daughter? Did her daughter seem glad to hear from her?

Things seem to be working out splendidly, we are happy for her. Daughter does not seem particularly fearful of phone, does she? Asks her to call back?

Has everything changed with those not even associated with the trip, then? Magically? Or perhaps things were never quite as we thought?

I have to ask this question due to the hints Drabble has sprinkled about, palimpsests and games, could Drabble herself be playing a game with the reader as several of you have suggested? We're about to see, we're OFF to seek the Wizard….er… the wonderful Sybil of Cumae!

A new beginning?

"Surely we are bound for some glorious destiny, some sublime destination?" (page 212)

Interesting question on Sally on page 169: "Or will she play the game?" I agree with BellaMarie, "What GAME?" Is there game playing going on and if so by whom?

The definition of pilgrimage is; (1) the journey of a pilgrim. ESP one to a sacred shrine or place. (2) the course of life on earth

Pilgrim: One who journeys in foreign lands. (2) One who travels to a shine or holy place as a devotee (3) Pilgrim: one of the English colonists settling at Plymouth in 1620.

The water stuff seems to be disappearing toward the last of our section with the exception of Cynthia's swim, what…why is this in here?

Life after death, the afterlife (page 204). Why is this in here?

This was very fine writing:

Andrew's activities had always made her feel so unimportant, and here it does not matter if she is unimportant. And sitting here idly gossiping makes a pleasing change from watching the London skyline alone from her third—floor window through a flew in the glass, though that had been satisfying, in its own strange dull aching way. This is what Candida is thinking to herself ( omniscient Third Person here?) so she is a little take aback when her friend Julia suddenly remarks, into a companionable lull, 'Don't you think we're a bit like those poor creatures? Scuttling around after we're dead?.....

Julia follows her intervention with a smiling, depreciation pout which says that she means exactly what she says, and realizes the implications of what she asks.

What has she asked? WHO could not relate here to how Candida feels and root FOR her?

"We live in a palimpsest of memories." p.203

Some people in the old discussion thought Drabble was using sort of a palimpsest, in writing, doublespeak, one thing said, another meant. We'll see this time what you think.

The word Palimpsest means "scraped again." It's Greek in origin. It is writing material as in parchment used one or more times, after the writing has been scraped off: erased.

(2) something having usually diverse layers or aspects apparent beneath the surface. Here is a literal

Palimpsest (click to enlarge)
Showing the writings of St. Augustine over a text of Cicero, seen by applying different lights to the original (which itself is quite faint): Ultra Violet light and Infrared light

Palimpsests to me are fascinating. With vellum (ox hide) at a premium, many times monks would scrape off old manuscript texts to put on their own ecclesiastical writings. It didn’t have to be one of the pagan ancients, either, who were removed, as is commonly thought, there is evidence of other church writings being covered, too: it simply was a lack of parchment available.

In this one through two different treatments, ultra violet light and infrared lights if that’s spelled right, you can see the original writing which is under the other. They have a lot of new techniques now, this one is quite old but it’s a marvelous and little seen example of what palimpsest is.

I strongly recommend Christopher de Hamel's many books on Illuminated Manuscripts for more information.

Hats asked what Bradyseism is. It's apparently a term for sudden rise and fall of the land due to volcanic activity. Here is a bit on it on the internet in a travel thing, it's really evident in Pozzuoli.

A local resident I met told me that the temple was underwater when she was a child. That would be about 65 years ago. The area is affected by Bradism, the rising and falling of the land due to volcanic pressure over time. If you walk down to the port, you will see that there are two quay walls. When bradism raised the landward one too high (the cleats are still there) for the ships to tie up to it, a new lower one had to be built below. From Bradism in Pozzuoli

Here's Bradyseism from Wikipedia is the gradual uplift (positive bradyseism) or descent (negative bradyseism) of part of the Earth's surface caused by the filling or emptying of an underground magma chamber. It can last several years and is normally accompanied by thousands of small tremors and sometimes larger earthquakes or a volcanic eruption.

I put this here for the excellent photograph of the Temple of Serapis and their description of the effects of Bradyseism. This area is really full of it.

My little THEORY is screaming in my ears. Our divisions in the text have been good, but this part IS slow, and SHORT why is it in here?

Now on to the BEST stuff: your posts!!

She brought up Palimpsest, I didn't but I am fascinated with the idea. (If you click on that Palimsest and if it immediately shrinks, put your cursor on it and click the orange button which appears at the bottom and stare at it, it should be HUGE.) But if you do click on it, does that not remind you of something?

It reminds me of... you've all noted we're reading her stream of consciousness, her memories, her thoughts floating in and out and the "palimpsest of memory" is mentioned a couple of times in this cheerful section, culminating with this somewhat omnious idea:

But it is there, this image, in the palimpsest of her memory, and if she lives, she will revisit it. (page 203)

If she lives? She's lived so far, why would she not live here in the happy blessed land? She hasn't been this cheerful in years. In some ways I hate to say it she reminds me of Sally.

I have to wonder WHICH palimpsest will out? That is WHICH one, which layer, which set of conflicting experiences will remain visible or on top as it were? You can have several layers of them, but only ONE will triumph in the end. I have to wonder which layer, the First (sad, afraid, timid, and yes it must be admitted, "poor me" one?) The Second: happy cheerful, grabbing the Golden Bough, the brass ring, taking a RISK, TRUSTING one).

OR is there another yet to come?

RISK and TRUST, and the reader trusts, too. He trusts he knows the characters and understands them. he trusts the author has been honest, tho in this case we KNOW she has not, she has said so. That's one of the tiny little old things peeking out there in the middle. We're about to find out. I have not read and am not going to read the last section until this next weekend. I want to be sure I don't miss one letter peeeking out from below the main layer, the current layer, on the palimpsest. Let's see what we can make out of what we have so far!

I think looking at that pile of words on the Palimpsest above, I have the feeling that's an accurate picture of all the conflicting images and words she's said so far. And about as meaningful. AND for some reason (maybe she's getting TO me) I can almost hear the Sibyl whispering in it, making sense out of the….what…mélange of ideas. So I'm going to listen for the Sibyl too. Love it!

What do you make of the private thoughts of each here? Why is this huge elongated section here?

What an intriguing idea. Our lives are like scripts that we write when we are young telling what we expect our futures hold. But other people and circumstances write over what we have written until very little of the original document shows through anymore and by the end there may be a completely different story.

I love the phrase that several people have used in their posts, "the third age." Candida is on a journey into the third age and everything she thought would guide her has been scraped out and written over. Now she has to find her own way with a new set of directions. I think she is trying really hard, but I'm not sure the Candida of the journals can sustain this mood for long.

Hats...I too see the mean spirit in Sally but like Dandy_lion,I was amused by all the things happening with Sally before getting on the plane, and while they were on the plane. I suppose others would get a bit annoyed with her behavior, but I suppose some of us had to see the humor in it all.

Like I pointed out Sally is now seeing a new Candida, so while all her antics were purposefully done to manipulate and belittle Candida, nothing is working now.

I love it!!!!

The incident of her coming into her room and overstaying her welcome was a bit much, but then Candida handled even that with ease. I love my private space and someone like Sally would get on my last nerve, but as the book said, "Something is bonding these two together."

Bellamarie, I see what you are saying. It makes a great deal of sense. As usual, you are on to something.

I am having a little trouble seeing the video in the heading. There is a little red x in the upper left corner. Does that mean my computer won't let me see it? I very badly want to see it. Help!!

I can see it!! I had to push Real Player. Thank you.

OH GOOD point, Ssthor, about THIRD AGE, I just now applied that, which several HAVE mentioned, TO the "Journal Palimpsest" we're seeing! A little bit of extrapolation. We've had Two "ages" in our Palimpsest writings (our sections of the book: the journal and now the happy journey). I wonder if there is a THIRD, she says the number 3 is important to her. I wonder how important, actually.

I love the way you put that about life.

Dandy yes I got that impression, she does look like the woman on the cover but she has quite a severe mouth, I thought, and in animation looks not a lot like her still shot bio pic either. Cute hair, hard mouth.

OH DANDY thought: they are seated according to their personalities!! I declare I am afraid of your abilities! YOU'RE the Sibyl, hahaha admit it, well done!!

BellaMarie, excellent question on who is tne narrator who knows them SO well, even their inmost thoughts. I don't KNOW?

Good points on the 7 reincarnations too. If she is going to make or break her Aeneid analogy it will be in the next bit. Already one has fallen by the wayside tho I hardly think she's a Palinaurus, but she was taken unawares. Were they asleep? I need to read that again when the messages came recalling them from the dream like world into the real one. No on page 233, Valeria thinks after a siesta she will tell them the news, so sleep is introduced…. In a strange sort of second hand way.

BellaMarie thank you for the story and art of Salummbo, I had never heard of her. Snakes again. Lacoon and the snakes, Salummbo and the snakes, are SNAKES some sort of omen?

Now I have to echo Dandy's question, why did that name make Mrs. Jerrold and Candida worry about the name? I don't get it, wasn't she a heroine?

Colkots, thank you for the lovely description of your home. Wow, your son is a re-write man for the NY Daily News!!! Wow.

Oh good catch Hats on the Bridge ball Drabble threw out, I did not understand why the huge bit on BRIDGE!

I don't play bridge, do the rest of you?

You need 4?

Olle, I'm glad you are now confused as I sure am! Hahaha

Sjalvironisk. Love it!!

Will you humor/ honor us and write one of your sentences in English and then in Swedish? I think it would give us a Sibyl like flavor! OR one of her sentences?

YOU are very kind, I am enjoying your contributions immensely, but now you are confused? Why??

Hats I have not taken a literary journey but there ARE a lot of them. Whom would we enjoy doing that with? She's picked Vergil, I still want to know what Sally who has done NO preparation, somehow I don't like that, "Feed me, Seymour," is doing during the sessions.

Interesting points on Gallipoli, Carolyn, and timely too.

Barbara, yes the schedule is slow, we probably should have done it quicker. Hahahaha Don't scream, read another Drabble?

Which one would you pick if we read another one, she's got a brand new one out about another aging woman?

Joan, thank you. I think you are right, here we see Anais at the last wondering why she is in with this particular group. What did you make of that last bit in this section, IF XXX is thanking YYY she does not show it.

Boy that brought me up short!

I agree, "Where in reality would you find 6 people in your close acquaintance ready to pick up and go?"

Good question. You would not.

I went to Delphi last year and you are right on, endless steps. Greece is one big step!! That's beautiful tho. I agree with you about the opening paragraph on page 167!

Barbara, interesting information on Turner and Lorrain, wow. I hear the PBS show blew people away, I want to be sure not to miss Turner's bit because I know so little about him, (but I now know more thanks to you).

Good point BellaMarie on how "Sally is not happy with the new Candida!" I think people get into relational ruts depending on what role they think they fill also in a friendship. Not sure what role Sally will fill now.

OH smart you, "a multiple, polyphonic person, who need not pretend to be stupid. (page 172) well there YOU go!! What, by the way, IS a polyphonic person? Many sounds?? Not polyglot, many tongues?

Sally as comic relief, Dandy? Lucy and Ethel? INTERESTING. Hahahaha Did you know (this is apropos of nothing) that Vivian Vance (Ethel) was younger than Lucille Ball so they made her gain weight so she'd look older? True story.

I must admit I also thought of Mrs. Jerrold married to Eugene and that bit about "though his ebullience and energy had soon overwhelmed her and silenced her." (176). Yes that's another telling little whisper under the palimpsest of what seems to be. NOW we see the real people, revealed in this section in their own naked thoughts and backgrounds.

What do we see?

Candida's is as white as her name.

Mrs. Jerrold (isn't there a Mount Ida or something? Who was Ida?.... is an extinguished poetess, silenced by her husband. I wonder about the marriages here, I really do. Eugene seems almost a… well?

And what of the others?

Oh good Lizabeth, 188: dying into life? I agree HELP HELP, I agree!! I like Barbara's Baptism, actually as you've seen this area does have a Christian connotation also in St. Paul. Good, I missed that one. So many little words here beyond the surface of the palimpsest of the water. Water!

Good question also, I assumed the treat was drugs for Anais but it may well have BEEN Valeria. What do you all think? That is only hinted at, not clear, like a lot of the murky water we're reading.

I would say Mr. Barclay is definitely gay, how did the rest of you see that one?

As BellMarie says, so much plot in such a small place thrown at us. Let's be sure to catch them all.

It's a good place for the setting, it's a land of mystery, of mysterious geological formations, of land shape shifting, of magic, of Sibyls and myth. AND she is now "no longer lone. She is one of a company. She is with her friends." (page 203).

That is followed by a chummy class in which they read of the death of Palinaurus. (WORD does not like that spelling but suggests nothing more. I liked Drabble saying she had lovely conversations with her spell check. I do , too) hahahaha

So!! I hope I did not miss anybody but I am SURE I have missed some clues. Structurally she's making points, I can't figure out what, tho? I can't figure out WHAT!!

What do you make of each of the Pilgrim's Stories as they journey on? Sort of a Canterbury Tale where each pilgrim tells something of himself. What do we now know about each? And why do we need to know it, why was it introduced into the story?

Oh good, Hats, yes some...increasingly more stuff on the internet seems to require Real Player.

Lizabeth...I too have been seeing all the signs pointing to homosexuality. In my notes, which of course I have misplaced once again, I wrote lesbian next to Anais's name when she said all the things you quoted her from pg. 191. I highlighted it and wrote lesbian with a question mark.

Your observation of Eugene was fantastic! I kept re reading that section and wondering what on earth is the narrator telling us. YOU are a sharp cookie! And...on pg. 243 "(Mrs. Jerold)..This is a tale, says Mrs. Jerrold, from the era before gay rights and AIDS- a tale of the bad old days, to which some of Mr. Barclay's generation sometimes look back with foolish nostalgia. Eugene, she says, had known the pale, raven-haired and glamorous Pope-Hennessy quite well.."

I have to comment on all the different poets, authors, and mythological characters Margaret Drabble has been dropping through out this section.

Salammbo...Daughter of Carthaginian leader, falls in love with Matho she witnessed his torture and execution and dies of shock.
Herman Broch..The Death of Virgil pg 196. "She carries him everywhere with her in her bag. He is not going to escape her now.
Goethe...Italian journey in 1786
Wordsworth
Ophelia..in love with Hamlet, drowns in a brook after the willow branch breaking, distressed after her father's death. Note: on pg. 191 "In such a night.....Stood Dido with a willow in her hand>"
Cecil Day Lewis.."At evening by the sour canals/We'll hope to hear some madrigals"
Gauguin
Virgil...
Tanit
Hannibal
Dido
Palinurus..pg. 203"the seven sisters read, in Latin and in English, of the death of the pilot Palinurus, who fell asleep at the wheel.
Paul Klee..Anna Palumbo is an art historian, and is writing about Paul Klee's sojourn in Kairouan. She is traveling in his footsteps.
Wagner
Ibsen
James Pope-Hennessy..pg. 243 he had been advanced a lot of money to write a biography of Noel Coward. He was murdered by at Ladbroke Grove by the "ruffianly associates of the unscrupulous youths with whom he chose to consort'" (Once again Homosexuality. inferred.)

Why has Margaret Drabble made all these important to mention? What is the purpose, the common thread? I see love affairs, loss and death.

It seems as if every sentence is weighted with portent. Meaning on top of meaning, endlessly . . . . What does it all mean? What's true? What's meaningful? Classical allusions abound. Literary allusions abound. I can't keep all of them in mind at once, I'm losing patience, and what's worse, I'm starting not to care.

At bottom, in a good book, is a good story--at least for me. This part is certainly heading for some kind of dramatic climax. And the portents I see suggest that it won't be a happy outcome.

Thank you for that additional stuff on Salummbo or however you spell it, BellaMarie.

I did not realize there were so MANY allusions thrown in.

Red herrings?

Hannibal, of course, killed himself.

Christine, do you think perhaps it IS just a straightforward story, after all?

??

Lots of red herrings in the water she keeps flooding us with? hahaaa

Ginny, If there is NOT a straightforward story in here someplace, I will feel very cheated. That we have to work this hard to figure out what's going on already has me a bit steamed. I will try to be patient until the end, but I'm running out of explanations for what it all means.

You know what? That's an excellent point. I think that I may want to concentrate on just that, a straightforward story and I know this group can figure out what it is. In many ways it's a perfect book for a book discussion.

Now also you raised a good point. DO we need to work so hard to figure it out? That's actually a great point. Could these just be...well in HER case they might be just ramblings, but is this new NARRATOR in the 3rd Person also rambling?

??

If so that sort of gives a clue to who that Narrator is, I never thought of that. So I guess the issue for me is, IS this Narrator reliable. Seems so. Seems everything is happy with the odd mentions of death water rebirth, things we all think about every day, stream of consciousness. I may be answering my own question here.

I know everybody is very impatient to get to the end. I am too, I can't WAIT to hear all the bombs! I may need to find some fireworks hahahaaa

As BellaMarie showed us, this part is crammed with allusions. Show off stuff. I'm sure I've missed half of them, but they can't ALL hold the secret to what it all means. Maybe the narrator is googling classical heroes, or famous drownings, or death in Naples, just like we are, and stuffing them in. Maybe Margaret Drabble had a set of index cards left over from the Oxford Guide to English Literature and wanted to get another project out of them before she threw them away.

Speaking of red herrings, maybe the whole trip is a red herring. A distraction from life back home.

The straightforward story that I'm interested in is the back story of what happened in the Lady Pond when Jane died. It set a lot of the story in motion, but it doesn't seem resolved to me.

OK I don't want ANY stone unturned, here are some of the questions from the back of my text, let's see if they make any more sense:

In addition to the Seven Sisters Area of London and the seven travelers in Tunis and Italy, to whom and what might the title phrase refer? What actual implied or expressed references occur in the novel? How might the most significant of these references be related to Candida and her story's primary themes?

Huh? Go for it, Guys!! Hahahaha

Of the seven Virgilians, Drabble writes, "These women keep faith with the past, they keep faith with myth and history." In what ways to the seven sisters keep that faith? To what extent do the past, myth and history repay their faith? How important is it to candidly [I can't believe they used that ahhahaha] weigh the relation of the past personal, cultural, and historical—to the present? How successful is Candida in this regard?

Huh?

Go for it, Guys!! Hahahaha

I don't know why they don't give page references!!

What does Candida mean when she refers to "my other self," as opposed to "my former self?" (Question mark in the original improperly placed hahahaah).

What or who prompts the emergence of this other self?

What might be the relationship between one's circumstances and the self that one recognizes as one's own and presents to the world?

WHAT?? HUH?

What might be the significance of "the ghost self" that Candida envisions in connection with the ghost orchid?

I swear I believe I have missed the point AGAIN of this maddening book!

What are your thoughts!!??!! Can any of you explain any of those??

CHRISTINE!!

" Maybe Margaret Drabble had a set of index cards left over from the Oxford Guide to English Literature and wanted to get another project out of them before she threw them away. " hahaha aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Speaking of red herrings, maybe the whole trip is a red herring. A distraction from life back home

!!!!

What, you don't like my serious effort at looking for biographical implications?? Hah! Listen, if Ms. Drabble can dish it out like she has, she ought to be able to take it, too.

My theory about what it all means is so off the wall that I'm not sure I can even post it when the time comes. But I comfort myself with the idea that, without a book discussion group, I would have stopped thinking about this novel long ago.

Me too, and I have a BOMB, I say a BOMB, let's all bring our BOMBS, our theories, our suspicions, our ideas, and our explanations and let them fly on Monday, the last week of the discussion. Should be a wild ride!

I mean, if we're wrong we're wrong!

Meanwhile I have no idea what the question on other selves means so am going back to the "ghost" orchid thing and see if I can figure that out AND figure out the one about what CAUSED this "other self" to appear?

Do they mean the money? Or something else?

Do you have a page number for the "other self" reference? I also can't remember where the ghost orchid appears. (The Orchid Thief, about ghost orchids, was a good book into which they made a bizarre movie, by the way.)

PLease overlook grammatical, etc. errors in 481. I was really too rushed to post. No, not drunk!

Just a few days offline, and it is, as Mippy said, almost impossible to catch up. I'll agree with her and Christine -- this seems a straightforward story, perhaps about a disturbed woman of the 20th century.

Ginny, I'm loving the pictures, especially the Arco Felice. Now why didn't son and DIL take me there back in 1989, when they were living in Pozzuoli. They probably didn't know, and I sure didn't either. Nor did any of us know about the Cumae. What a shame. I still feel like a dunce about mythology and classical literature, but having learned about some in the Latin classes has made the rereading of this book much more interesting and enjoyable.

The new omniscient narrator. She's writing about us!! "Perched with hand luggage like a little flock, migratory birds with new spring plumage." Excited about the trip. We've seen those ladies. We've been there. Our narrator says these are all nice ladies, who conceal their thoughts well. "If Anais wishes she had never embarked with this ill-assorted crew she conceals it well." Does anyone get the idea Anais is unhappy about the trip?

Stephanie, I think Candida is being true to her OLD self when she invites Sally to go on the trip. She's duty bound because she and Sally had talked about it, she knows Sally wants to go -- for the ride or whatever reason -- and it's her nature to be the "good" girl and do the right thing.

Dandy, a good summary of Sally,post 474. And I love it that Valeria has her number and spots her as a troublemaker. Will she stay one?

Someone earlier remarked about a possible connection between Anais and MR. Barclay -- thinking drugs? It makes me wonder what she does on all her solo trips. Valeria thinks she has an idea what's in some of the packages. What's going on there?

I've (unfortunately) stepped on sea urchins, I've collected their white white dead shells, but have never ever seen them walk away dead. How fascinating! Has Drabble shared that with us because of her references to Goethe?

Time to re-read

Thanks, Ginny, for holding off on the leading questions in the back. I didn't want them to meddle in what I would make of the book. Even when I finished and glanced at them, I felt they didn't delve as deeply as this group has.

I do think every little detail has a purpose--and not just to throw the reader off track. But to convey Candida's inner turmoil. At such a moment--being dumped by the husband you'd cared for along with his children throughout your entire adult life--all the principles the character had faith in are betrayed. There's bitterness and uncertainty about the value of everything one has ever learned and believed. (Candida made what in her day was the correct choice--to become a stay-at-home wife and mother. There are no cards left in her deck to play, except the survival card.) She shows us that at times her very sanity feels threatened.

But that's not to say that every little mystery (Jane, for example) will be cleared up. Maybe Jane is just an appearance-challenged girl whose seductive mother is having an affair with her headmaster--another kind of earth-shattering experience for a highly protected child.

And loose ends and unsolved mysteries are realistic too.

I'm surprised that a few participants still think Candida is mentally ill--not normal. I think she'd be pretty dull-minded--a twit, actually--if she'd taken the expulsion from her family in stride. She was thown out of the home she'd created, and her children were made to feel it was her fault. This is a tragedy. Will it kill her, or can she muster enough resources to put together some kind of meaningful life?

"a set of index cards left over from the Oxford Guide." Lots of allusions to every kind of art and learning etc. etc. The Yale junior reviewer faulted her for being too intellectual. It's all a matter of whether you like that kind of thing. I like it when I'm getting most of it, but when it becomes snobbily dense and abstruse, I don't. It can get a little showy: "Well, if you thought that was clever, how about this allusion?"

I suppose Anais represents another path Candida did not take. She's the free-living artsy bohemian who smokes hash--and may even deal a bit in that or something else over-the-line.

NOBODY SHE KNOWS THINKS CANDIDA IS NUTS. WHAT IS DRABBLE TELLING US? THAT CANDIDA"S GOOD AT HIDING HER MENTAL ILLNESS OR THAT SHE"S ANY WIFE WHO"S EVER BEEN EXPELLED FROM HER MARRIAGE?

(Sorry for raising my voice.)

For some reason this keeps sticking out in my mind.....

"Queen Dido gazes from the battlements across the centuries for their approach, for she knows that they remember her. Remember me, she cried, and against so many odds, through so much forgetfulness, through the death of so many empires, they do remember her. They keep their tryst."

Is the narrator leading us to believe this group of seven knew Dido and had a fate to see her again? Are these seven spirits returning to the after life? Are the seven reincarnations, and Dido is excited for the fact they remember her?

I seriously am beginning to think everyone in this book are spirits of the after life or reincarnations of the mythological characters returning to the after life.

When I strip away all the mumble jumble there are only a few things that stay with me..

1. Candida's love was lost.
2. Candida began a new life.
3. Candida and everyone is willing to go on this journey.
4. The Aeneid has been Candida's drive to the Cumean cave.
5. Dido knows them all and says they all remember her.
Water ends life and Water gives new life.

So now for me the $64,000 question is who actually is the narrator or should I say narrators in this book? I am feeling Candida herself began the actual typing in the lap top, but because I have suspected her having multiple personality disorder (or many reincarnations, after all if Silvia Brown can tell people they were former people and those people are inside them causing things in their life to happen, then why not Candida?) from the very beginning I leaned to the fact there were many persons inside her and they could also have typed into that journal, and could have taken on the narrators in Part Two.

Since I have not read beyond our assigned pages I can't wait to see how far off I am or possibly closer than I know.

There is so much smoke and mirrors especially in this section that it has to come to the point where you say............Hey STOP! take a breath and breathe. Sometimes we want to see so much other than what is really here.

One more thing stuck with me and I just remembered it on pg.3 which is the first page of this book, She says, "I have switched on this modern laptop machine.....I am going to write <b<some kind of diary.....I haven't kept a diary since I was at school....Nothing much happened to us, but we all wrote about it nonetheless....I don't think we were very honest in our diaries...Nothing much happens to me now, nor ever will again. But that should not prevent me from trying to write about it. I cannot help but feel there is something important about the nothingness....This nothingness is significant. If I immerse myself in it, perhaps it will turn itself into something else. Into something terrible, into something transformed. I cast myself upon its waste of waters.(Just a figure of speech saying she is diving in to this project) It is not for myself alone that I do this. I hope I may discover some more general purpose as I write. I will have faith that something or someone is waiting for me on the far shore."(She has already begun her theme.)

I totally see this as Candida deciding to sit at this laptop and write whatever comes to her mind. I think this could mean that the entire novel is just about a women feeling like she needs to make something out of nothing. She will type and see what comes from her thoughts and mind. All of it is just her typing and creating something. lolololol She allowed her imagination go where ever it wandered and she typed it. She allowed to herself to use the third person, the narrators to come in, she used whatever past, present and future knowledge she has gained to just create this book.

Margaret Drabble you sly little fox, this book is exactly as YOU said in your interviews. YOU gave it all away....its about you wanting to take a woman and make her braver then you, hence the heroine, and give her all the experiences you feel and fear about aging, death and lost love. You said you were concerned with the way women's lives have gone with sex, freedom and responsibility, you tackled every one of them topics in this book. When asked, Is Candida expressing what you think, you replied, "She is, she is.."

All the rest in the book is just all your scholar knowledge, magic, and enjoyment!

No matter what anyone else thinks....I personally am satisfied with this. No matter what the ending is....I am satisfied with this....Margaret Drabble thank you for being such a magical writer!

BellaMarie: So maybe this is a book about writing a book?

My final thought on Candida surprises me, myself and I!!!! Since I feel it is just Candida writing and creating anything that comes to her mind, using all the prior knowledge (obviously Margaret Drabble's scholarly knowledge) then she is not the least bit insane, she would not have a multiple personality disorder and she would not be mentally insane.

If anything as our dear author(Margaret Drabble) Candida is a brilliant, imaginative, magical and fantastic writer. She put her fingers to the keys and just typed........she let it take her where ever, and she did not see the sense in allowing any boundaries. She could cross over to the after life, she could take on Mythology, she could take on the modern woman and she could take on an adventurous journey to Italy, Africa, London and Suffolk with a few other places spun into her writings. She could make up her characters as she goes along, they could be past, present and future. They could be Gods, Goddessess, Prophetess, teachers, health club members, friends, enemies,murderers, prisoners, homosexual, eccentric, scholars, suicidal, warriors, heros, heroines,etc., etc., or just a typical woman who is trying to "explore the feeling of getting old, finding it liberating to write about it" as (Margaret Drabble so stated.

It was not Margaret Drabble's intention to teach as she said in her interview, but I can attest to the fact she taught me more than I ever thought I would allow myself to learn. In the beginning I said I would NOT look into the Aeneid, lolololol I not only read the cliff notes and everything else the internet could supply me on it but I took on almost every mythological name she threw into this book. So while she did say, it was not to teach, I am certain she knew it would.

I could not be more happier for reading this book and joining this discussion. You all gave so much. You all challenged me and others to dare to figure this out. I am NOT saying I have the answer for any of you....I am saying I have the answer for ME and that's all I need. Each person will take away with them something entirely different or maybe bits and pieces of what will help them make sense or satisfaction of this book. I will read the ending and then laugh at myself, as I am sure Margaret Drabble did when she ended this book.

Something to think about from the BookWrapCentral audio interview:

"A book to me is an exploration, a companion, a way of making my journey through the world."

ChristineDC...."BellaMarie: So maybe this is a book about writing a book?"

Indeed I believe it is exactly that..... it is Candida sitting and typing away as Margaret Drabble supplies her with all the information. She was brilliant and tackled everything she said she wanted to and then some.

It had to give her great pleasure, as it did all of us.

Bella : ) Also--What a memory you have for the various types of characters in this book!

I have not read further than page 244 and I sense something interesting happening in this section. It began brightly with the trip and their adventures. Then came the telephone calls that pulled them back to the real world. Candida's daughter which turned out to be nothing but frightened her nonetheless because she did not know if it was serious or not. Then Mr.Barclay and Mrs. Barclay having to leave the group and return. Those two phone calls seemed to have turned the tide from bright to dark.They are trying to get away and have an adventure and it is as if something is pulling them back, not allowing them to be free and joyful.

I remember times in my life when I was out travelling or whatever and having a wonderful time and then there would be a phone call or something to disturb the peace and even if it was resolved, it was never quite the same again.

That is how I feel now. The joyful flow has been broken. I fear what may happen next.

I think the greatest fear a woman who has a partner has, is that she will be left alone. When we are left alone after a long partnership whether the reason be by a death or by divorce it is an extremely traumatic and frightening experience. I had never, ever lived alone when my husband died. I went straight from home to marriage. Here a girl who had an apartment and did not live at home must be living a loose life therefore our parents would keep us at home as long as they could. Things had changed by the time my youngest sister became an adult and she was able to move to her own apartment.

I can tell you I felt really really alone for the first couple of years of my widowhood. There was the tremendous grief and then the loneliness. Funny thing is, now I cherish my independance! I enjoy being somewhat selfish. I think in this part of the book the grieving is over for Candida and now she is beginning to enjoy her independance. She is off on an adventure. She enjoyed telling Andrew she was going on an educational expedition related to her Virgil class. And he WAS taken aback and very surprised. She was thumbing her nose at the Headmaster.

Carolyn

Kiwi...Thank you for sharing that personal information. I could sense through your posts you were relating to Candida's loss and loneliness. I am so happy to hear you say, "now I cherish my independence! I enjoy being somewhat selfish." That shows like Candida you are a survivor. Good for you!

I love your last sentence, "She was thumbing her nose at the Headmaster." It is important to want Candida to show Andrew she could survive without him. Margaret Drabble being the strong, independent woman she has shown in her interviews would have Candida end up no less, a heroine and survivor indeed.

(p 226) What does it say on the oblong plinth ? the Virgilian inscription? Spelunca alta fuit etc..........?

(p 231) straight-laced "Pitlochry" ?
(p 232) little cheroots ?

I have a really bad sore throat, stuffy nose and headache. This prescription syrup for my throat is making me off-balance. Dr said there's lot of it (whatever it is) going around and it will just have to take its course.

Emmabarb, I hope you get well very soon.

Bellamarie and all of you, I have read the last fifteen posts. Each and everyone is wonderful. Bellamarie, those two posts are spectacular. I am proud to be in a discussion with you. All I can do after reading your posts is go back and reread this week's chapters. I am following the schedule. I haven't looked at our assignment. The curiosity is killing me.

I can't believe it. I am beginning to feel some sympathy for Sally on my second reading. Sally is clumsy on the airplane. Then again while walking with Candida trying to get away from some begging children she falls down. The narrator says she is like a "clumsy doll." I feel concern for Sally. Illnesses can make people seem awkward, like they have butterfingers or two left feet. Many illnesses cause a lack of coordination. Again, I worry for Sally. It especially hurts when we are older and children laugh at us. It makes a person feel like a foolish elephant. Poor Sally.

Earlier that day Sally had not felt well. She blamed the peppers. Sally, although not feeling well, refuses to stay behind. I do not think she cares about seeing the sights as much as she is afraid of being left behind. I feel there is a cloud over Sally's head. She is afraid of something. Whatever it is she doesn't want to be without friends when it occurs. She doesn' want to be alone.

Seven Sisters

I like this link because of the picture of the Seven Sisters. They look so free and fanciful.

By the way Sally means "princess." I can not get use to thinking of this Sally as a princess. I will try to wrap my thoughts around it. Maybe this is one of Drabble's red herrings. Sally is given such negative traits. Is this fool's gold?? Is there a princess somewhere inside of Sally?

Like everybody else, I love Valeria. She is like a mother hen. She knows about all the ladies in a personal way. Sally buys a ring, an agate ring. Sally asks Valeria what does the Arabic inscription mean on the inside of the ring. Valeria says it means "something about the gardens of the just."

Now I am confused. Then, the narrator says Valeria "invents this rubric." Does this mean that Valeria just wanted Sally to feel good about her purchase so, she made up the gardens of justice idea???

I have to look up "rubric." After googling, I am still confused. Will somebody give the definition of a rubric?

Also, are we going to tell a little about the Etruscans?

Here's a link: rubric, a special part of a manuscript, sometimes in red (hence, the color reference):
rubric

Hats ~ As usual, your words have opened up some ideas for me!

Sally a princess? No, not as I see her. I think she's the alter-ego (is that a Freudian term?) within many of us ... maybe in me, when I was younger, more unsure of myself. The person who tries too hard to be a friend, the person who doesn't know how to make friends, so intrudes, as Sally did in Candida's room that night.
And feeling unwell? Haven't many of us felt sick and longed to have a girl friend take care of us? I think Sally may be the little girl in us who wants a Mommy's care ... and that sure isn't available any more!

I feel quite sorry for Sally, this second reading, which I missed the first time. Perhaps she wanted to be hugged, to be loved. Thanks, Hats!

Thank you for the link. I have missed you.

"I think she's the alter-ego (is that a Freudian term?) within many of us ... maybe in me, when I was younger, more unsure of myself. The person who tries too hard to be a friend, the person who doesn't know how to make friends, so intrudes, as Sally did in Candida's room that night." (Mippy)

This section started with such hope and happiness, but has descended into evening and darkness. I have not read further, but I have a terrible feeling that worse is to follow. I have always considered Margaret Drabble as Candidas other side. I wouldhave liked a book about Valaria.. I really think she is a fascinating character and would love to know a lot more about her.

I've changed my mind: I'm now thinking that there are a lot of clues to the meaning of the book in the audio interview at BookWrapCentral, which Ginny posted in the header. At least today I think this.

As I said earlier, she gives it all away in her interview. She says the narrator using the singular sense. Candida is indeed the narrator, the ONLY narrator Candida is at all times the writer of this book within a book. It's as I suspected from early on, Margaret Drabble said in an interview that she has always wanted to tackle using the third person and women's modern day issues of sex, freedom and responsibility. She created Candida and commissioned her to write the book, and be the character in the book, she herself would or could have been if circumstances were different.

Margaret Drabble's last sentence of the interview sums it up.

"Its a form of autobiographical, it's the person I might have been."

You really could not ask for anything more in a book discussion. We're all over the place, trying to figure out the clues, trying to interpret, trying to figure out IF the clues ARE clues, if there is anything there at all, IF IF IF.

I have not read ahead this time (of course we discussed it for a month how many years ago). I have forgotten everything but the shock I felt then, but we all have our own "bombs" for next Monday, I am so excited to see what bomb you will find and bring.

Bomb might be too strong a word. My opinion on this changes with each post I read. I must resee the interview, I was so struck by her strange mouth I did not get too much out of it.

I have to pass this on, so we can all laugh together. I sat down to do my hair yesterday before the TV and it was showing about 10 minutes of a movie called something like Looking for Comedy in a Muslim World, an Albert Brooks movie, which is apparently about (who knows. I only saw 10 minutes of it) a comedian hoping to make it big in a Muslim Country overseas.

He does his act to a live audience, and apparently bombed. He's seen discussing this failure with others. But he's unfazed. He's offered an interview about a TV show. He explains to those at home that is not a come down, his failures so far are no big deal. He arrives at the executive meeting dressed in robes and pointed slippers to find very chic up to date professional people dressed in Western attire.

Meanwhile their Secret Service is monitoring him, recording him. They hasten with a full report of the danger he presents. "He said 'to bomb is no big thing'." Gasps all around." AND the most important thing, in connection with that statement he invoked the name of their God!"

Uproar and gasps all around. Proof! So while he's interviewing at the TV station the army trucks begin rolling.

I don't know when this movie was made, and I expect NOW it would not be considered funny. But I thought that misunderstanding, that interpretation of those two words, bomb and the "name of his God," uttered as an exclamation, was hilarious, as we struggle to interpret every wrinkle in the window pane and every hint of water and other obscure references. I have been wanting to mention it and dare to, this morning, due to the similarity of what I am now going thru.

I have storms so will be off a bit but what SUPER points you all raise, welcome back, Pedln! More anon!.

I can't wait for Monday!!! Our discussion will not "bomb," no matter WHAT our little "bombs" are. haahaha

BellaMarie we were posting together and on pain of being blown off the planet I must say, oh golly the woman is a Sphinx or Sibyl herself.

I did catch that, (I expect to be hit by lightning any minute, the Sibyl's Revenge?) but I took it absolutely the opposite!

hahaha

How do you all interpret this sentence from the interview?

"Its a form of autobiographical, it's the person I might have been."

Drabble is rich, famous, married and a famous author. She says in one part she has family whom she's close to, she has friends. She's not that person....BUT....She sees lonely people in London. She utters this statement.

I really took THAT statement as "there but for the grace of God go I, I would be just like that, that may be a part of my inner self." I don't take it as something positive, but did you all?

??

Ginny...."She sees lonely people in London. She utters this statement.

I really took THAT statement as "there but for the grace of God go I, I would be just like that, that may be a part of my inner self." I don't take it as something positive, but did you all?"

Ginny, I took it for what she said.... "that she wanted to create a character that could explore the feelings of getting old and confront underlying fears of growing old. With your age you get more stressed and neurotic about little things. She said, she created a heroine who would find it more difficult than she does. She expressed she was inspired by her walking around a certain part of West London. Seeing how many lonely people there are in London."

I am a very happily married woman with grown kids and grand kids, friends, and a successful business of my own, yet can at times feel lonely and surely see lonely people in many places. I don't see anything layered or mysterious or hidden message here. I can respect that any person can read and listen to that and interpret it differently by the fact they are going to bring their own personal experiences and feelings into the interpretation. How can we NOT?

I have read two interviews and watched two video interviews and I am just not seeing anything underlying. I don't see bombs going off in the end..lolol Regardless of how it ends, if she dies, or lives, I see it as Candida writing a book within a book. All the other stuff was magical smoke and mirrors to entertain and inform us and herself, oh and lets not forget Mrs. Drabble. I hope someone can find a bomb and prove me wrong. But they must have text to prove it!!! lolol

At this point let me analogize it to our dear President Bush's statement.. "There are WMD in Iraq and we MUST go into that country and stop them..

NO WMDs in Iraq and NO Bombs in this book. lolol Just an exciting, magical and enjoyable read. Not to mention the great debates, discussions and wonderful people we all got to experience by reading this book.

BellaMarie: I'm looking forward to discussing your ideas in the context of the entire novel.

Ginny: The header says that we begin the discussion of the full novel on Friday, not Monday. Which will it be?

I am only up to p. 210, ending with the travelers last night in Northern Africa. Their stay was enjoyable reading with three exceptions: Anais's secret shopping trips and disappearances, the eating of live sea urchins, and Julia and Candida's discussion of "the ageing process."

Addressing this last item, Candida lying in bed realizes, "...the solution to the problem is death. It always has been, and it always will be. There is nothing to be done about this....Acceptance is the better choice. The readiness is all. And she (Candida) is certainly not ready to accept it yet."

Candida can't die! Although I was tempted to read the last page, I won't. I won't. I will not. Candida is just too happy right now. Drabble had better not kill her off in some water scene!

A few responses:

hats -- I do keep a reading journal, but not for beach reads. Thank you for the delightful Seven Sisters link.

Ginny -- Sibyl was wise. I only notice the details and marvel.

Christine -- Your index theory tickled my funny bone. Thank you for the clever vent. Hear, hear. I agree.

BellaMarie -- I was fascinated by your theory about Candida writing Part II, being the narrator. However, is Candida that well educated? She seems to sit at the feet of Mrs. Jerrold in hero-worship of the older woman's scholarship.

Also I was elated to see some Sally Sympathy emerging in our group. Sally is not a Meanie.

Dandy, who is not ready to accept the solution to the problem either

Whoop!! Christine! Ginny: The header says that we begin the discussion of the full novel on Friday, not Monday. Which will it be?

OH let's do Friday, can you all do Friday? There's such a little left! Can you catch up Dandy?

Let's do? What say you? Theoretically it should be Monday, what say you!?! It's only a couple of days ahead and it's not many pages and I'm on FIRE to read it?

You all are seeing such good things with your second readings, like Hats and Sally, I think I must reread again too. I'd like to see Dandy's POV here.

BellaMarie, yes I have a bomb but like so many of my bombs it may fizzle before I can even throw it and blow myself up hahahaa. Naturally I can back it up with the text.

Since this is WEDNESDAY, I'll say this somewhat coyly, a hint to the bomb is in the heading. (I can be a Sybil too).

Dsndy: Addressing this last item, Candida lying in bed realizes, "...the solution to the problem is death. It always has been, and it always will be. There is nothing to be done about this....Acceptance is the better choice. The readiness is all. And she (Candida) is certainly not ready to accept it yet."

Candida can't die! Although I was tempted to read the last page, I won't. I won't. I will not. Candida is just too happy right now. Drabble had better not kill her off in some water scene!

Oh my aren't you the close reader, "ACCEPTANCE is the better choice." That's a biggie.

hahahahaa I love your "Drabble had better not kill her off." LOVE it. I agree she doggone better not. Of course I repeat as I have since Day 1 here, despite discussing the thing for one month several years ago I could not even tell you (such is the mind I now have) IF she kills her off. I CAN tell you I don't know what happened at the end.

I CAN'T WAIT for you all to TELL us! We'll need to raise a flag! The FINALLY FLAG. Or as she would say ENFIN!!

We're supposed to START discussing the end on Friday, 3 days early, so I guess you all can look now! So let's look!

Be ready to tell us what it says!!! Freaky Friday!

Wow, I better get reading and I can tell you one thing, it better be good! hahahaha Elsewise it goes across the room again.

I'm excited about hearing EVERYBODY'S thoughts, and don't worry about agreeing, we won't.

I've finished the book, so I hope we can go for it on Friday.

Ginny--It's a fairly recent movie released last year and now on Premium?("Searching for Comedy," or some such) and I gather from the critics' response that the misinterpreted bomb joke is the best thing in it. Albert Brooks' movies, you may know, are always low key and get tepid reviews. Usually, I end up getting a few laughs, but from what I've seen of this one, I believe your joke is the high point.

I missed the scene where he shows up for the business meeting in traditional Arab garb--bet that was funny. Well, now that you've spoiled that for everyone, what happens to Candida?? : )

Hey, what's wrong with the smilies? (Hypothetical; no answer required.)

REALLY? I finally got the POINT or best part of a movie? hahahaa Thank you, I love Albert Brooks but that one looks kind of off the wall even for me, still that bit WAS funny. It's amazing what you can see in 10 minutes.

Oh the smilies? You have a spacey smiley, they have to be all toether, the : and the )

I REALLY am going to miss coming in here and so enjoying your comments!

Mippy we can start Friday and those who have not finished can avoid the discussion till Monday if they can bear it! Hahahah

Christine, Do you have a page number for the "other self" reference? I also can't remember where the ghost orchid appears. (The Orchid Thief, about ghost orchids, was a good book into which they made a bizarre movie, by the way.)

No and I did not mark the Ghost Orchid passage except for rolling my eyes, do any of you know where it is? I intend to read the end tonight and then tomorrow reread for the 2nd time our current part so I can see what you all are seeing. I have the Orchid Thief! I must read it!

Pedln I am so glad your studies have made this read more enjoyable. Oh this is good, the new Narrator is "writing about US?" oh wow?

Yes I think Anais is wishing she had not come but don't you think that's normal, in a group of 6?

I think drugs are in the packages that Valeria is wondering about Anais carrying. Or something illegal.

What has Goethe to do with dead urchins rising and walking? Did he mention it?

Barbara, I'm glad you feel we've delved more, I can't understand the doggone questions! Hahahaha I think we've done a magnificent job! NOW for the piece de resistance!

Oh good point on there are no cards left in her deck except the survival card. I am quite struck by Dandy's reference to accepting your fate AND to this which I just noticed, very important, I think:

(or maybe not)

On water: Weightless, she swims through its embrace. Godlike, it takes her. (page 194).

Huh? Accept? Godlike? Water?

I was a tad irritated by Valeria's assumption that "who can want to contact her charges? At their age, they are so thinly connected to life. That is why they are here, with her? " (Page 232).

EXCUUUSE me? I resent that!

Barbara, good point on Candida not being a twit and this reflecting her mental anguish. On this tho "and her children were made to feel it was her fault"

I am not so sure about that. We only have Candida's word for that. They must be pretty twitty themselves to believe that. Of course we don't know them, but we do know that the timeline is suspect, Andrew is an adulterer, and some of the conversations C has reported are not true. She says so.

Interesting on Anais representing the path C did not take like maybe C represents the path Drabble did not take and S may represent that too?

Oh l like Barbara's This is a tragedy.

How do the rest of you feel about that? IS this a Tragedy?

Oh here's another one from Barbara:

NOBODY SHE KNOWS THINKS CANDIDA IS NUTS. WHAT IS DRABBLE TELLING US? THAT CANDIDA"S GOOD AT HIDING HER MENTAL ILLNESS OR THAT SHE"S ANY WIFE WHO"S EVER BEEN EXPELLED FROM HER MARRIAGE?

Says who nobody thinks she's nuts? Who of the group has expressed any secret thoughts toward Candida?

???

BellaMarie I love your thinking posts, but the outline you show a similarity to Dido is an outline for Aeneas, actually!

I totally agree: smoke and mirrors. You may be right about Candida sitting at the laptop and writing anything that comes into her mind!!

I liked your post 514 very much. We will see Friday!

Meanwhile I did like your point that we ARE learning stuff!!

Lilzabeth, me too, I'm afraid of the last bit too, but am on FIRE to finally know in this company, what each thinks!

I agree with BellaMarie, good point, Carolyn in Candida's figurative thumbing her nose at the Headmaster!

Emma, you ask the HARDEST questions!

A cheroot is a cigar, isn't it? I have no idea what Pitlochry is!!

The lines spelunca alta fuit uastoque immanis hiatu,
scrupea, tuta lacu nigro nemorumque tenebris are from Book VI lines 237, 238 and mean There was a deep cave, gaping both wide and deep….

And the words….

Procul, o procul este, profane… .are from line 258 and mean: Away, go away, you the uninitiated!

There are plaques of Virgil's Aeneid all over the area, especially at Cumae, and where he supposedly landed. Here is one

You probably can't see it but it's Book VI too.

I agree, Hats, I am proud to be in a discussion with all of you!

What an interesting thought on Sally, that you think she cares not so much about seeing the sights tho sick, as she does being left behind!!

What do you think she's afraid of?

Did any of you notice that Anna, the 4th passenger on the boat, also wishes she could seek the Sibyl and ask her about her intended? The Sibyl has become like one of those magic 8 balls hahahaa.

That was also, Hats, a good question on Valeria "inventing" the rubric. A lot of tour guides make up the most outrageous bosh just to impress their charges and we have seen thru the Narrator that Valeria does not really know the way to Arco Felice which is not a town but an arch.

Thank you Mippy for the link to rubric. And you, too, feel sympathetic to Sally, like Hats and Dandy's dandy idea, love it.

I wonder if all these characters are alter egos.

So here on the brink of finally "seeing the Sibyl" some of us like Stephanie and Lizabeth are afraid of what's coming in that we fear it cannot be good. Do any of you think it's going to be good news at the Sibyl's Cave (if you have not read on, having been told you should?)

I haven't read it yet, I'll say….too many references to death and water. What a bummer, what a let down if absolutely nothing happens. If she goes and is disappointed,. If she has no message. Talk about an anti climax and what IS the climax, I hope we're not to it yet, let's watch for it?

And finally Dandy I do like your point, is Candida that well educated to write the Narrator's bit as Bella now thinks (and very persuasively, too).

How do you all think this is going to end IF you have not read ahead?

Can't WAIT for Friday!!

Dandy-lion..."BellaMarie -- I was fascinated by your theory about Candida writing Part II, being the narrator. However, is Candida that well educated? She seems to sit at the feet of Mrs. Jerrold in hero-worship of the older woman's scholarship."

Candida can be as well educated as Margaret Drabble wants her to be, since it is Drablle who is supplying the information for this book. Keep in mind since I believe everything past page 3 is a part of the diary Candida is writing, she can tell you she is not well educated but is it the truth? More fabrications I dare say.

Ginny...you have managed to intimidate me as my ninth grade English Lit teacher. He would call on me and ask my opinion only to challenge me and make me doubt myself. Because I look to you in full admiration, (I am Candida and you are my Mrs. Jerrold) I of course am ready to go bury my head in the sand for posting my thoughts before reading the ending and waiting for everyone else's thoughts.

She describes how she will feel when the book is finished and everyone has read her theory.

EEEEKKKKKK its like the first person in line at a Basketball shooting tournament taking the shot hitting the rim, so self assured it is going in only for the crowd to go AWWWWWWW. Then the next person steps up and its all NET!!!!!

I can NOT wait to hear your bomb. I spent the day, after finally reading the ending today preparing my basis for my theory. I am almost embarrassed to post it. As our dear Candida so eloquently said, "Cowardice or courageous"...I shall post it on Friday. lolol

Holy smoke! NO NO, NOOOOoooooooooo I love your theory, NO!!! Jeepers, no we WANT to hear all theories, when you see my DOUBLE BOMB~! (yes, Friends, yes, I THINK, having read two pages into the new section I have caught her again). Yes. Two bombs! hahaahaa

(But MANY times my bombs stink. hahahaaha). er.... you might call them skunk bombs, and you can say so if you like!

NO NO NO NO NO noooooooooooooooooooooooo? I love what you're saying!!

This is a YES!!

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!! You theorize on, I love it, that's the entire reason we're HERE!!!

Have at it! I'm going off to look for a bomb gif. Keep in mind yon bomb(S!!) have absolutely nothing to do with ANYTHING? Actually. Pertaining to the plot?

Besides I have never intimidated anybody (one fervently hopes) but am often myself intimidated but THIS time, I say, I've got her!! YES!

What the bombs mean I have no idea? But I am excited to fling them into the pot like a dog with a particularly jucy bone as my sole contribution.

Yes!!

NOoooooooooo

and Yes! Theorize on, I am, Friday!

Barbara, you're right, Looking for Comedy in a Muslim World came out in 2005. The premise is the " hilarious story of what happens when the U.S. Government sends comedian Albert Brooks to India and Pakistan to find out what makes the over 300 million Muslims in the region laugh. Brooks, accompanied by two state department handlers and his trusted assistant, goes on a journey that takes him from a concert stage in New Delhi, to Pakistan."

It was in theaters in January 2006!

Here is a The Official Website and a lot of funny trailers for it. I think I must see it. At the top of the page they have a Trailer, and in it the trailer shows his shoes anyway. hahaaa

It says Fred Dalton Thompson is in it, is that the same Fred Thompson possibly running for President?

Boy was I wrong. I thought a vegetable samosas was a drink something like a Bloody Mary. They look "appetizing".

hats ~ love that link you posted for the Pleiads Mythology...symbols of life and renewal.

Emmabarb, thank you.

I have one question. WHY??????????????????

Finish by Friday.. Hmm.. Not unless I can find a quiet hour or so.. We are on the road today heading away from Marquette and into Wisconsin. We will be spending just the night in Eagle Rock and then another night further down.. We are on our way down to the Mall of America in Minnesota just for the weekend and then will be off to spend four days in Madison, Wisconsin. Between Pedlin and a dear friend of my husbands, they are both high on Madison, so we will go there for Frank Lloyd Wright.. The downtown area... and the Swiss Community..So.. time just now is short. Wish I could read while my husand drives, but car sickness gets me big time if I try. So I will struggle with trying to finish.

Ginny....."But I am excited to fling them into the pot like a dog with a particularly jucy bone as my sole contribution."

This is exactly how I felt the night I was posting my thoughts and theory. I was sitting on my patio discussing the book with my hubby after reading and it hit me like a FIRECRACKER...Boom...Boom...Bang...Crackle and then the Fizzzzzzzzzzzz I was so exhilarated all I can compare it to is as a child sitting and watching the fireworks on the 4th of July and just looking up and feeling they were going to enter my whole body!! At the age of 54 yrs old I still have that exact feeling every year I go to watch them. Thank you for moving the date for discussing the last section up to Friday. I seriously think I could not wait for Monday. I am waiting with such anticipation to hear everyone else's thoughts to the whole conclusion.

TWO BOMBS???

Oh my I think I know where you are headed......

Hats.....I would love to try to answer you question WHY??????? But I have no idea what the why pertains to. Help me out here.

I hope the ending to this book does not just close to black like the final episode of The Sopranos.

I would like a real conclusion and somehow from the conversations, I get the feeling that I am going to have the same expression I had on my face when The Sopranos ended.

BellaMarie -- Yes, Candida does tell us that there are fabrications. Thank you for putting me back on the path of understanding.

So...there are lies. Where do they begin? Where do they end?

If Candida confesses that she has made up fabrications in her personal diary...if she is the narrator of Part II, is the whole novel really and truly a fictional work of fiction?

Is there truth at all? Is it all one big lie?

Sigh. (Headache ensuing.)

I am on p. 222. I will burn the Midnight Oil and finish the novel tonight in anticipation of Friday's discussion.

BellaMarie -- Make that jump shot!

Ginny -- Throw those bombs!!

Me? I am not a literary athlete or a literary terrorist (sounds terrible...sorry, Ginny), but I have an ace up my sleeve. I hope I get dealt the right cards tonight.

Dandy the Gambler

I have a feeling Hats has finished the book. hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I think Stephanie and those who can't be ready on Friday it will be fine for you to come in Monday! Nothing will happen and we will still want to hear your theories. I love the Mall of America, have a wonderful time.

We'll all have our pet theories tomorrow. I have not read but 2 pages but I'm going off to read them today.

BellaMarie, what do you think bomb nubmer 2 is? Just to see how Sibyl like YOU are!?

Dandy, EXCELLENT! I shall have to burn the oil, too, as I've put it off until today, want that last minute excitement.

BellaMarie, isn't it fun to have so much enjoyment in discussing one book!!?! You've all made it so, for me. I hated it the first time, just hated it. Now I'm enjoying it. What it SAYS that I can't remember the first book, I am not sure. hahahaa

I do remember some shock at the end, but that's all. Today we'll all know! Tomorrow we'll hear ALL of your thoughts. There are a LOT of us in here, I hope to see an Explosion of many kinds tomorrow! Please talk TO each other, you're so good at that, about what the others have posted!

I look forward to Dandy's Ace and Annie3's Prediction and every single body's thoughts, I hope we get a billion interpretations. I have NO thoughts on the whole, I am obsessed with the parts, so once again I will be left to hear your explanations and pick between them!

She has just come back and to catch up has read almost 100 posts.

Her mind is in turmoil from great thoughts, theories and interpetations. (yours, not hers)

Her eyes are burning... she finds that Friday is tomorrow.

She feels faint...

She needs a strong drink and asks for a cup of tea.

She goes to READ and maybe find a bomb of her own...

She'll be back tomorrow.

hahahaah! They wondered where she was! They look forward to her Sibyline insights thru burning eyes!

This IS exciting. I am bolstering my own bomb number 1 with evidence but it's taking eons!

Gumtree, I adored your post. Very clever,

I just finished Bomb #1 and am slowly digesting Bomb #2--(How does one digest a bomb...?) I have not reached the end.

Is there an end? Does this book go out, not with a bang but with a whimper?

I hope someone else sees this book as I do but probably not. I am patiently waiting for all you slow readers to finish the book, the book that I think is straight forward. Yes, I know I have a different drummer LOL

Ginny..."BellaMarie, what do you think bomb number 2 is? Just to see how Sibyl like YOU are!?"

Ginny, My dear friend, YOU will have to wait til Friday just like everyone else. lolol

Annie, Don't worry I have a feeling no one is going to see this book throught the same Sibyline eyes. It's okay, you don't need to feel its a right or wrong way. My theory is going to throw you all for a loop. I don't care if NO ONE agrees with me. I like being different and unique. That's the fun of being an individual.

Relax...post...read and most of all ENJOY!!!!!

Well, maybe not exactly straight straightforward but not really some deep mystery when all is said and done. Though there are some small loose ends. I had a vision of sorts yesterday of what this discussion would've been like if we'd all noticed the same things and read it the same way. Boring!

I expect all of our interpretations sounded eccentric at one time or another, because Drabble was pointing in different directions with all ten of her fingers. Very naughty! And it was so dense that everyone seemed to find significance in things the rest of us passed over.

Margaret Drabble is indeed a "wily fox" and a hyper-intellectual show-off. But I'd be willing to try another of her books in a few weeks--or maybe months. Does this mean I'm a sado-masochist?

Yes. hahahaa I swear I could kill her. Just starting Part Four. I could kill her. Not because of what she's saying but because she fizzled my Bomb!

Hahahah BellaMarie, I look forward to tomorrow with great glee!!

Lizabeth, you too? I have been wondering myself if this is the way the world (of Candida) ends: I would like a real conclusion and somehow from the conversations, I get the feeling that I am going to have the same expression I had on my face when The Sopranos ended. hahahaa

HAHAHAHA

Annie, you say your own ideas with CONFIDENCE, who cares who else sees it your way? You're an individual, too!

With all due respect, I hope we each see it differently, I agree with Barbara, discussions where everybody agrees are BORING, I like a little frisson, I like a group Voice like the many headed Cerberus (also connected with the Underworld but I guess she ran out of mythology) hahaaha, and I have to hand it to all of you, you've been remarkably astute yet tolerant of different ideas. Better polish off that trophy, tho, for tomorrow, but.... dogGONE it I really could kill her. I MAY throw the book across the room after I read Part Four just to enjoy self? hahahaa

Barbara, I expect all of our interpretations sounded eccentric at one time or another, because Drabble was pointing in different directions with all ten of her fingers. Very naughty! hahahahaa

BellaMarie, I loved what you said!

Well wish me luck I'm 2 pages into Part Four, you all better have your thinking caps on tomorrow!

(We could have a Group Throw at a certain hour? hahaha)

I'll participate in a Group Throw. Name the time.

I'm not ready for a group throw...I totally loved this book. The way I see it and the way I feel at the end is wonderful!!! The person I am is delighted to have read this book of knowledge, amusement and information. It has great insight. Just need not take it quiet so literal is all. I'll check back later to see how everyone is coming along.

Ginny........NOOOOOOOOOOOOO I am expecting great explosions from YOU!!! In for a penny in for a pound someone quoted in the post...teee heeee. YOU stay with your bombs....and don't be throwing that book against any walls. I promise I will not let you down.

Barbara: If you are really serious about reading another Drabble novel, I suggest that you look among her older works. I just read a handful of reviews of the next book after Seven Sisters, which is called The Red Queen. They are for the most part not positive, and the novelistic shenanigans are just as complex.

I'll take a pass, myself.

Well I just checked the library to see if the book was available again for the finale, but, get this, it has seven reserves on it...I say it's a plot hahahaha

Christine, do you know anything about Drabble's Ice Age? It flashed as I was checking out some of the links in the heading -- a stock market novel?

Ginny, in answer to your question back a ways -- Is this a tragedy? If so, shouldn't Candida be the worse for wear? I don't think it is.

What a time! As usual, when I must get up to get myself on the Shared Ride bus at whatever time it arrives in the early morning, I was sleepless almost all of the night before. Finally, having drcided I'd cancel the ride and get some sleep, missing my appointment at the Pain Management Center in E. Stroudsburg, 16 miles away, I fell asleep.

Woke in a panic at about 8:20. Threw myself together. That involves sit-ups, lie-downs and pushups to get my dainty undies and outer pants on. Puffing and panting I rolled out to the living room, thankful that Don Technician from Mobility Express more or less fixed my motorized wheels yesterday, so I didn't have to use the old manual wheelchair I own.

Having decided thusly, that I wasn't going to go, I swiftly rolled out in the hall to the lobby and there at the end of the walkway was Mike-the-driver in the little Shared Ride bus, waiting for me.

Unkempt, wrinkled, sans lipstick, hair flying all over, barely awake, with no food or COFFEE inside me, and no extra provisions in case I had a colostomy crisis, I got on the bus and off we went.

An hour, many stops, and sixteen miles later, we were at the Pain Management Center. I was dying of thirst when I rolled inside. A kind young man gave me paper cupfuls of water, and I settled back to read until an hour passed and I was called into the examimning room.

Oh! I forgot to tell you that, since I couldn't find my copy of Seven Sisters I ordered a paperback version from Amazon, to be expeditedly sent to me. From the time it arrived a day later, I've been reading like crazy. I find that with this reading I have much more patience with Candida, whom my mind perversely keeps calling Margaret. En effet, I rather like her this time around.

Blood pressure having been taken. and oxygen supply to my brain or whatever, all measured, Dr. Walia, my great buddy from Mumbai, granted me fifteen minutes of his time. He told me he'd have to give me a warning because I took too many Vicodin substitutes this past four weeks, thanks to extra activity because of the use of the manual wheelchair which wreaked havoc with the tears in the rotator cuff of my right shoulder and caused me some painful grief. This warning goes on my record, so now the FDA officials know I'm a culprit. Cripes, guys, go round up some of those addicts on the street and let me and others like me have some relief from pain, will ya?

Dr. Walia told me that the movie, "Water", is part of a trilogy, so I"m going to try to get "Fire" and "Earth", since I think "Water" is very fine. He also told me about a film called "Namesake", he thinks, which in his opinion is very good indeed.

I only had to wait an hour and a half for the Shared Ride vehicle to come back and pick me up. An hour later, or slightly longer. found me at Bill's ShopRite Supermarket Pharmacy in Mount Pocono. While the druggist filled my prescription, I got some Smucker's peanut butter, some good Italian bread and a pound of Cabot's butter and a quart of milk for my dinner. Kathy Pharmacy wasn't there. She is my friend from Trinidad, who read my Precarious Global Incandescence and liked it. I'll give her my Caroline's Muse, a story about a New England ghost that haunts a shipmaster's house on the coast of Rye, New Hampshire, when I can afford to buy her a copy.

I managed get back to Limekiln Manor where I live. on the two lane highway, with only one mishap. One of straps of my seatbelt fell down on the ground when I went over the darned grating that separates the parking lot of the supermarket from the street. A woman hopped out of her car on my side of the road and picked it up for me. Another rushed across the street to see if she could help. Aren't people nice, really?

The colostomy crisis waited until I was home before it hit. This involved a complete change of clothes and more situps, puushups, etc., in the process of getting re-dressed. You just don't know!

That meant an unplanned trip to the laundry room, which was okay, because it gave me more time to read.

I don't have any bombshells for tomorrow, I'm afraid, but I will say this reading has brought memories to me. The first time I moved away, after my marriage fell apart, I bought a trailer on Anastasia Island, just off the coast of St. Augustine, Florida. I was scared to death, 1000 miles away from family and friends and almost everything I had known.

This last time I moved, I found a flat which must be a lot like Candida-Margaret's, in size. It's in the sticks on top of Mount Pocono, in Pennsylvania, a state I'd only visited once in my life. (My son Chris and family live 20 miles away. He works in NJ and Manhattan, though, so I'm lucky to see him and them once a week.) I live alone among people who are not exactly friendly.

I like my place. After living here a little over a year, it really feels like home, to my amazament. I recently had a chance to move to a brand new facility with elevators, central heat and A/C and lower rent. I refused. What's wrong with me? Could I possibly be happy alone and on my own?

Okay, that was my day, and some of the thoughts I had which, en effet, were stimulated by this book.

A demain,

Mal

Wow, what a roller coaster ride! I am reeling from the last week's reading assignment. Partly from the plot. Partly from my reading marathon.

My ace card couldn't be played. I'll explain my erroneous thinking and my brand-new conclusion tomorrow.

Dandy

I guess you could call Ice Age a stock market novel. Here's a review:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,915658,00.html

Malryn! It sounds as if you've had quite a day, but I see a positive end which I am happy for. I personally think there is a curse on today, it's a miracle any of us are here. Surely tomorrow will be better. Good on you for persevering!

Christine and I will be hosting a FLING BOOK party on July 1st (the first day the discussion is officially over) at 10 am, no no wait, let's do it in the evening about 7 pm or at noon, let's coordinate this for those who have to be in public areas? hahahaha but I'm looking forward to all extremes!

Barbara and Christine, yes I read in the NY Times that Drabble's new one is similar, have any of you read it?

BellaMarie, I love your enthusiasm, you can bet bombs will sound tomorrow like cannons hahahaah PRO and CON! An early 4th of July!

Annie, it's a curse, hahahaahah 7 waiting in line? Are they all in here? I expect so!! Wouldn't that be funny!

Tragedy and worse for wear, Pedln, good point. She's NOT? I'm not to the end yet, having done my own Odyssey in the Wal Mart with a hole in my exercise *(that's a real hoot but that's what they are) pants, which I did not know about until I spotted a Wal Mart mirror and checked , due to startled glances from people I knew, sigh sigh, It's been quite a day, dashed out with baby, wearing gardening jogs (that's my excuse) with no time to do anything for self, having run into everybody I ever knew in my life including one of my sons who looked a little startled, it's a long story.

Soooo my sympathy for candid Candida is rapidly dissipating but I lack a few pages before we reconvene bright and early in the morning to hear your thoughts. I look forward to an exciting venue and vigorous debate and it will be fun to see how many different takes we end up with.

My theory, summary and conclusion as to why I see this book as.... a novel written in diary form by only Candida, she and she alone being the person physically sitting and doing the typing, yet takes on the third person in the glosses and becomes the narrator/narrators in the book,is based on the interviews, videos and articles we have all posted throughout this discussion with Margaret Drabble the author. I also base it on the text written in the book mainly on pg. 3, since I feel that is where I first realized this is where she revealed herself to me.

On page 3. Candida, uses the first person, "I" in her first sentences. "I have just got back from my Health Club." She follows it with, "I have switched on this modern laptop machine." Also, she says, "I am going to write some kind of diary."

Because of the gloss....."She sits alone, high on a dark evening, in the third year of her sojourn." I see Margaret Drabble is doing exactly what she said, "I have always wanted to write in the third person."

When Candida writes, "I don't think we were very honest in our diaries." (Referring to her school days.) This also is where Margaret Drabble said in her interview about "throwing in some fabrications". She is letting us know up front not to expect this book to be entirely truthful.

"Nothing much happens to me now, nor ever will again. But that should not prevent me from trying to write about it." This lets us know she is a bit depressed with how her life has been and feels it may remain that way, but is willing to write about it just the same. She is taking action.

"I cannot help but feel that there is something important about this nothingness. It should represent a lack of hope, and yet I think somewhere, hope may yet be with me." Here she has already decided to accept the possibility of hope within her. Margaret Drabble is addressing the fears of loneliness, depression, and mortality all middle age women are confronted with and are concerned about as well.

"This nothingness is significant." I see her saying that what she will be writing about is significant. I see Margaret Drabble immediately deciding to tackle the women's issues she expressed in her interview of "having compassion and concern with the change in the woman's life and attitudes with sex, freedom and responsibility." Candida is the character Margaret has created to write about them in her diary. These issues are significant.

"If I immerse myself in it, perhaps it will turn itself into something else." Here I see her deciding to dive right into writing and acknowledging once she begins, it may go in many directions. Throwing caution to the wind, being a risk taker. "Into something terrible, into something transformed...I cast myself upon its waste of waters." She is giving it NO boundaries she is open to whatever it may become and wherever it may go.

"It is not for myself alone that I do this. I hope I may discover some more general purposes as I write." Margaret Drabble is using Candida to be her voice to tackle her own issues as she stated in her interview and to share these with the readers, US! Drabble said, "Exploring the feelings of getting old, and confront underlying fears of growing old. With age you get more stressed and neurotic about little things." The interviewer stated, "Candida is expressing what you think".....Margaret Drabble replies, "She is, she is.

"I will have faith that something or someone is waiting for me on the far shore." I see her hoping that by the time she completes this book her life will have changed in some way and she will have met someone to spend her aging years with. As for the "far shore" I see that is referring to the end of the book. And something else I will reveal later.

From this point on...... the writings are meant to do as Margaret Drabble said in her interview, "To amuse and to inform." I personally don't believe the trip or much else in this diary was truthful beyond page 3. I even doubt, but won't go as far as saying, that I disbelieve her being married, divorced, having three daughters and moving to London.

I feel certain it is Candida sitting at her laptop typing. The issues that were tackled are certainly real, but all the characters and places are fictitious. Everything she types is created as she goes along, that is why you have so many contradictions and confusing things going on. She is letting her mind wander all over and not afraid to just type it all down. Margaret Drabble is a very scholarly woman/author and she wanted to show it off in this book. She had Candida reading Virgil so she could bring in all the rest of the mythological material she gained in all her years of reading and research. She knew if she gave the readers some comparisons, and parallels it would entice us to want more and make this a mystery to solve, trying to figure out all the different characters, places, plots, themes, etc. Which we did.

Let me address a few parts that were puzzling to me and explain how I see them now, in no particular order. When I said amuse, there were truly many places I found myself laughing. Sally bumbling and fumbling at the airport, spilling the wine. This first puzzled me and made me wonder what on earth is wrong with this person who is suppose to be a friend to Candida? Then I saw the post about "Sally, Sally, Sally" and Lucy and Ethel, at that point it all became comical to me, and I found myself laughing out loud.

Where she writes, "Candida and Mrs. Jerrold thinks Aeneas is a shit", really puzzled me. I thought why on earth would she say that? After going back and reading the relationship in the Aeneid, I felt Dido was not without deceit and trickery in her first thoughts of why falling in love with him would benefit her, so why Aeneas a shit? But, once we began discussing it and Ginny said in her post, "she would let us continue trying to figure out why Aeneas was a shit"..... I saw the humor in it rather than it be an insult. I totally cracked up laughing. As I said early on, I think we all may be over analyzing things and that Margaret Drabble would think we are a bit too serious and would probably laugh.

I found myself constantly wondering why on earth does Candida want to retrace Aeneas's journey to Italy? Now, I see it was to inform us readers of all the various places in Africa and Italy and to be able to throw in all the knowledge of the other places and all the mythology Mrs. Drabble wanted to inform us with. Look how we as a group went googling, yahooing, and re reading parts of the Aeneid and posting all those beautiful pictures of all the wonderful places she mentions in the book, and all the pictures of the gods and goddesses, the Golden Bough, the Sibyl, etc. etc. Wow, were we being informed!!

I kept going back to Margaret Drabble's interviews and listening to what she was saying about writing the book. Some of you felt there were underlying messages and that she was not giving anything away. For some reason I was not seeing nor hearing that from her, although she is known to be a bit of a fabricator.

I realized that the book was following exactly what she said. When it came to the part of the journey and all the people deciding to join the group, I saw exactly what Margaret said it was, "A bit of magic prompts them to go off on their wonderful tour. Laughing, have fun with NO men, much like school girls. Older women often go off doing something thrilling."

Getting to the relationship with her daughters, now I see that as very clever indeed. How many mother/daughter relationships mirror theirs? I can name quite a few that comes to my mind. Not all mothers are maternal. Not all mothers see their daughters in a perfect light. Few mothers will admit to disliking their own daughters when indeed they may. Not all mothers want to remain close to their daughters once they are grown. It may seem insensitive and cruel, but Margaret Drabble wanted to address it and she did through her complex character Candida. She already had her being a not so good friend with her inner thoughts, so why not go the whole nine yards and give the readers some more food for thought. A dose of reality. (In Ellen's section Candida was looking for absolution and reconciliation, a nice tidy, clean happy ending and then thought..........Nahhhhhhhh that is not going to work. I for one was thrilled to see her not end it there.

I am not going to go into each character and try to explain why her, or why him. They were all fictional and necessary for the story. But I will say as far as the main character Candida, Margaret Drabble decided to make her as the interview stated, "a woman who lived a conventional life, perverse and in solitareness." She made her a part of, HERSELF. She made Candida.... Me (Bellamarie), Ginny, Kiwi, Hats, ChristneDC, ssthor, Barbara65, Dandy-lion, Ella, Lizabeth, Joan, gumtree, pedin, mabel, Stephanie, Mippy, Dsndy, and yes, last but not least even Olle. We all have a part of Candida in us. We all are middle age, have fears of growing old, had losses in our lives, loved and been betrayed, have been a little depressed and lonely even in a family of loved ones around us, dream of traveling to imaginary places and romantic places, we all would love to speak to a Sybil and let her tell us our destiny, we have moments of despair, we all have the cowardice and courage to overcome situations in our life that come unexpectedly, and we all have a certain amount of magic in us to write to amuse and to inform. We all wonder what will it be like to die, who will be there for us when we do, and what the afterlife will be like. Hence the Cumean Cave.

Oh how I loved the Ellen section of the book. Candida had a blast getting to express how she felt each of her daughters would react to her death. (Don't we all do that?) She enjoyed, writing this section as much as the anticipation of the Journey to Italy section. Margaret Drabble is a real hoot! In the final section, I feel she sees the tree represents her life. pg. 304 When she saw the tree still there she says,"this really really pissed me off." This is her seeing her life in the same place unchanged and finally she is showing some real emotion about it. You have to get pissed off sometimes to take the steps to better your life pg. 305 After she climbs over the railing and rescues the tree, she says, "I felt triumphant." She is finally feeling happy as though she has accomplished something in life. pg.306 "That tree is back there, back where it was, under the motorway bridge.....It will probably lie there for another three years." She is seeing her life may stay in the same place another three years, she is feeling depressed once again. Margaret Drabble showing us no matter how hard we try and just when we think we have taken three steps forward to overcome our obstacles in life we find we have taken two steps backwards by something else coming or the same problem arises again. The cycle of LIFE.) pg. 307 the last page although it is not numbered..."I am filled with expectation. What is that calling me?" I believe the voice of rescue.

Now for why and where I came to believe my theory: Candida, the writer/third person/ narrator/narrators. is the ONLY person who could know how all these characters thought, felt, and looked like, and their sexual preferences that were unspoken. She is the only person who could know how Jane felt when she drowned. She is the only person who could know the Wormwood Scrubs man was a lost soul and had no remorse. She is the only one who could say pg.168. about Queen Dido, "they do remember her. They keep their tryst." pg. 307 yet it is not numbered..."As for me, I have no home. This is not my home. This is simply the place where I wait." She is the only one to know these things because she is the creator of the people and their characters.

As for the title: "The Seven Sisters".....It is all the things referred to in the book, constellations, a street, the great white cliffs, and a group of ladies going on a journey. With a few surprises I will mention in the end.

Okay now for my last thought and theory...When Ginny spoke of two bombs, it made me go back and reread some parts of the book. The one where she finally speaks to the Sibyl especially since that seems to have been what was meant to be the climax of the book. (Yet for me it was a complete let down.) On pg. 246 "Submit, whispers the wizened Sibyl, who lost her frenzy a thousand years ago. Be still, whispers the dry and witless Sibyl, from her wicker basket. Be still. Submit. You can climb no higher. This is the last height. Submit. But it is not the last height. And she cannot submit."

Since I stand by my theory that Candida has been the only writer of this entire fictitious diary, I had to ask myself....... Why was the Sibyl such an important character? For me personally Candida and the Sibyl were the two major characters. So who is she or what does the Sibyl represent?

I am a very Christian person, so of cause right away I began seeing Candida dropping clues along the way, she too is a Christian person, so with that and Margaret Drabble's saying she. "is confronting the underlying fears of growing old", I believe Candida would be struggling with what it would feel like to die, where is this place Heaven and who would greet her when she enters it? Hence,pg. 247. "Who is that waiting on the far shore? Is it her lover or her God." (The Cumean Cave for me was the afterlife)

The first Christian clues I saw were on pg. 3. St. Anne's, Our Faith in God, hope, immerse in water, transformation, She states on pg. 15 "I was brought up in a religious family."

For ME and no one has to even slightly agree with me.....The Sibyl is...............are you ready for my Fireworks....... !.. !...! Candida's Subconscious MIND, pg. 277 "How impossible it is, to enter the consciousness of another person. How impossible, to escape from one's own." the Holy ghost, hence the ghost orchid. As a Christian the Holy ghost is in essence a person's subconscious mind that guides us, protects us, gives us knowledge and keeps us on our journey to Heaven. As a Confirmation teacher for "7" years I reassured my 7th graders (doooo doooo doooo there is that number "7" is that an omen? preparing to make their Confirmation that if we listen to the Holy ghost (Spirit) we could choose to do the right things and be aware of when we are not pleasing to God and that would lead us on our journey to Heaven, the afterlife,and have EVERLASTING LIFE. The Holy Spirit is a voice that whispers to us in times of need, counsel, happiness, sadness, doubt, fear, courage, cowardice, etc. It is with us always, we just have to remember to.. "BE STILL, Stretch forth your hand, and submit to it."

When I taught First Grade Catechism classes the one thing I remember, is teaching a lesson on how the children could hear God. I said, "shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh listen, can you hear him? Shhhhhhh be very very still.............hear him? He is the birds singing, he is the wind blowing, he is the water flowing, he is music coming from the next room. He is all the sounds you hear in the silence when you be still. At night when you lay down to sleep take time to listen to God speak to you in your heart, he is the good night hug from Mom and Dad, he is the love you feel when you close your eyes at night, he is the sun shining in the morning. Just be still and listen."

My conclusion.........This is a book, within a book written in diary form written by Candida. She used her conscious and subconscious mind in creating it. It has fabrications, mythology and magic in it. It is an excellent piece of work in my opinion and interpretation.

Here are a few extra thoughts I have for these particular things in the book:

Sojourn...temporary place....she awaits her final place in Heaven
Transformed......Body and blood into Bread and wine
She has hope.....which all Christians do.
Sibyl.......her subconscious mind, the Holy Ghost.
Far shore..........Heaven
Christmas tree.....The tree of life in the Bible
Seven Sisters.........Candida, her Seventh sense..her intuition, her subconscious mind, the Sibyl, the ghost orchid, the Holy Ghost lolol I think that's "7" all inside of one person this writer.

I also found the "7" Sacraments

Baptism......Immerse in water...Drowning....New life.
Eucharist...Bread and wine eating with her friends.
Reconciliation...Aeneas to Dido, Candida to her daughters in the Ellen section.
Confirmation....pg. 62 "...it was an iridescent dove-grey pigeon, The Siybl ...Holy Ghost
Holy Orders....Mythological Characters..Priests and Priestess
Matrimony....Ellen's Marriage
Annoiting of the sick...pg. 246 The sun is a blessing upon her tired eyelids.

I can't wait to see all the different theories the rest of you have. I am going to miss all you wonderful ladies and Olle. I will miss our daily chats. I loved learning a little more about you all through your describing your favorite room in your home. This was so enjoyable and Ginny, MY Mrs. Jerrold, I look forward to the next book discussion with you. You are fantastic!!!!!!!! You challenge us to open our minds, you encourage us to express our inner thoughts, you give acknowledgment and praise and sometimes corrective criticism when needed in the most polite way. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all your compliments and encouragement for me to write my book one day. I can promise you it will happen. One day.

Just wanted to let you know my computer has never kept the correct time. I posted my last post at 1:15 A.M. June 22, 2007 Friday.

Ginny and Christine ~ I hope to attend the FLING BOOK PARTY, Sunday, July 1. Much thanks for making it in the evening.

(p306) Like a latter-day Sisyphus, was this Candida's punishment ? It is obvious that Sisyphus (the "most crafty of men") is everlastingly punished in Hades as the penalty for cheating Death, but why he is set to roll a great stone incessantly is a puzzle to which no convincing answer has yet been given.

My theory is a little goofy too. I feel Candida started off writing her diary as a way of filling her day, filling the nothingness. In the beginning Candida soon finds her diary fulfilling the empty places in her life and heart. This fulfillment leads to an opening of her imagination. An imagination she had never used. I think her writing got away from her. She began to enjoy herself. In the process of grieving for a lost family and friends, she became a writer whether she knew it or not.

If Candida knew she had begun to enjoy writing and began writing to entertain someone or somebody, she is not a prevaricator. If Candida wrote and used her imagination and thought her imaginative thoughts were based on facts, then, her sanity is questionable. If she wrote it for this generation and future generations of her children, then, shame on her for lying.

At some point the diary becomes a novel. I feel Margaret Drabble used this plot of a woman writing a diary filled with truth and fantasy for a bigger reason than just for our entertainment. Ok, here goes the rest of my unfounded thoughts.

Margaret Drabble wrote this novel, Seven Sisters, to write herself out of writer's block. I know! She never said it in an interview. I do feel authors don't share every reason why such and such a plot begins to flow on paper. I am ready for anyone to throw soft balls my way.

I also feel Ellen is a major part of the story. We were in a maze and knew it or didn't know it. Ellen came and led us out. According to Ellen, Sally was nothing like the person Candida made up and made us almost dispise. Ellen also believed Andrew had an affair with Jane. I still don't know the truth about whether Andrew had a fling with mother and daughter. Yuck!! I have a question mark there.

Anyway, I would like for Margaret Drabble to allow Ellen to write a book. The book could continue where Candida left off.

Annie3, I love your individualistic spirit.

ChristineDC, thank you for the link on Ice Age. I looked up The Peppered Moth. I loved the plot of that book. If I can find that particular link, I will put it here.

The Peppered moth, by Margaret Drabble

"As Faro Gaulden listens to a lecture on genetic inheritance, she wonders why some people live in one place generation after generation whereas others feel the need for continuous movement, exploring the concepts of genetics and individuality." (Novelist)

I soooo agree.

"Margaret Drabble is a very scholarly woman/author and she wanted to show it off in this book."(Bellamarie)

Bellamarie, I am glad you mentioned the Christmas tree. I didn't understand why Candida was so driven to save that tree. Then, the tree landed in the same place where it had been for three years, I think.

"Christmas tree.....The tree of life in the Bible"(Bellamarie)

Pedln, did you read "The Death of Vishnu?" Ginny, did you read it? Traude? This book reminds me of The Death of Vishnu. At least, the death and sudden resurrection part? Part untruths and truths??

Like Emmabarb, I would love to read The Sea Lady too. I like Margaret Drabble's writing and want to read more of her books.

Someone said that it might be a straightforward story, and I think I’m inclined to agree to some extends. My theory is that you can read it like that, but Candida/Drabble (which is not showing off!) is telling us a story of the difficulties in being friends, wives, career women and to confront it with a strong sense of finding the answers to the eternal questions of life and how to become a real man. The Aeneid is a way to find these answers, not only for Candida but for all of us. What is there on the other side? Will it makes me free, happy, wiser? Is it the apple of Eden?

Carolyn: “Olle would you be alarmed if you could read your wife's mind?” I would probably be, but I do think that after reading Candidas journal, I would also try to understand the reason for her not telling me earlier. That was a very hard question for me to give a straightforward an honest answer to. You are welcome with more.

I have four pages to next stop: She seeks for the Sibyl and waits for her dismissal. In Swedish this would be: Hon söker Sibyllan och väntar på att bli avvisad av henne.

Now (midday in Sweden) is the time to celebrate midsummer. A holiday with the same importance as Christmas, but without any religious meaning. Herrings - not red but salted - newly reaped potatoes with chives and sour cream and of course schnapps and beer. Yummy! Think of Miss (fröken) Julie by Strindberg and you will know what it’s like! Glad Midsommar från (Happy Midsummer from) olle

A BRIGHT and exhilarating good morning to you all and I see you're dazzling and throwing sparks everywhere!!

Let's do this, what a group! (The time shown is California (Pacific) time so it's usually three hours behind the East Coast).

Now come right on in, put down YOUR theory and then go BACK and enjoy immersing yourselves (sorry I could not resist) IN the comments of the others.

And THEN as Hats has begun, let's discuss the points each raise, we have a lot to talk about in this last week!

I've got new questions for you that I hope you can answer.

I am surprised at my own reaction this time to the end of the book, but I never tied into her, since she got me the first time and just from reading what I have this morning I believe the truth lies with YOU not what I thought. I do feel a curious flatness this time but it's better than the rage I felt before, it must be the company.

See next post!

An official welcome welcome to what must be the FREAKIEST FRIDAY in our Books history! TODAY we'll understand! TODAY we'll learn what happened, so many ends to tie up! What say you!?!

TELL us!!!

I have a million things to say but I'll start with my two bombs which I am absolutely certain of. I'm more of a detail person and it's hard for me to see the big picture. What, for instance is the climax in this book?

Dadgum it Drabble trumped me!! She TRUMPED my bomb, and then she withdrew it!

I almost threw the book across the room!! I spent ALL morning yesterday looking up mileage, just to be SURE and then dogGONE it, she trumped me but she was faking!!

I'm not. Here's the truth:

Page 271:

Page 271: According to Mrs. Jerrold, my mother never went to Cumae. She never walked alone up the Via Sacra and heard the immemorial bees….None of them went to Cumae. None of them every reached the Sibyl. Why should she invent a trip to Cumae?

Oh tricky Margaret Drabble. Just like you just can't STAND not to point out the literary references you've used without attribution, you can't STAND not to tell the reader what he, if he has been there, already knows. Candida did not get to Cumae, no matter WHAT the last section of the book says. How do I know?

Fizzled Bomb number 1 in a sea of bombs:

Page 244: "She seeks for the Sibyl and waits for her dismissal "

Weeds grow tall in the quiet tracks of the Ferrovia Cumana at the bottom of the hill…She has bought a ticket, and punched it in the ticket machine, but the train does not come….

...But here, at last, is the little local train, bedaubed with richly massed graffiti. It stops for her on the poor hot neglected track. She is the only seeker to board it. She clutches her punched ticket.

Candida walks on sandaled feet up the Via Sacra towards the Sibyl's cave.

Really? Did you get the impression the little Cumana Ferrovia train went to Cumae? If you did you are in error, it does not. It stops then and now in Bacoli. You have to take a bus to Cumae from the Ferrovia Cumana, no matter which stop you get off at.

My bomb? Candida, no matter what else is going on has not been to Cumae.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. You MUST take a bus or drive there from the Ferrovia Cumana.

Bomb number 2 coming up, at this point the story made as much sense to me as Olle's lovely Swedish!

Trumped Bomb number 2:

Page 246:

"An antique headless statue and a fallen marble torso flank the path….At the top of the path a great red earthenware pot is perched perilously upon a tripod. It leans toward the west.

Candida sits down upon a stone capital and shuts her eyes once more. Chunks of fallen masonry lie about her, and …..[she apparently turns into the Sibyl]: "The fluids are drying out of her skin and her limbs and her entrails. She is turning into a dry husk, a weightless vessel."

And a liar.

You can see the path at the top of the page. That IS the Sibyl's Cave. You can see the entrance to the Sibyl's Cave. Do you see any fallen masonry or pots or headless torsos?

She is thinking of Pozzuoli where these things abound. At Cumae, up up up on the top of the complex, a long climb from the Sibyl's Cave, is the Temple of Jupiter, and one of Apollo, where this is:

There's a pot, but it is not on a tripod. There's what I guess you could say is part of a torso, but nothing like " An antique headless statue and a fallen marble torso " and again nothing like Pozzuloi where such things abound and are much photographed at the Flavian Ampitheatre... None of this is near the entrance to the Sibyl's Cave

She has NOT been to visit the Wizard….er Sibyl. At all. I don't think she has been to Cumae at all and quite frankly from the descriptions I don't think she's been to Pozzuoli either. SHE, Candida Wilton, has NOT been to Cumae. Her description of it, taken from some guidebook, is not accurate. I have just been there, you can see in the heading what it looks like. There are also many vast eerie caves

on the turn up the sacred path to the Cave of the Sibyl, don't you think she'd mention that?

OR do you think she'd mention this? Having talked about Aeneas ad nauseam? The

View from the top of the temple complex, over the Cave of the Sibyl, not far from the columns, of where Aeneas landed? Heavily marked? These things are not in guidebooks. SHE has not been there.

No matter what else she says, no matter who wrote Ellen's book and the last book, no matter, CANDIDA has NOT been to CUMAE!!

The whole thing is a build up to WHAT? WHAT is the climax in this book? Or the point? What do you think happened here? TELL us your theories?

Ginny ~ I'd like to join you in throwing the book ... somewhere ...

I did not enjoy being emotionally thrown back and forth ...
however, is it the sign of a good author, when she throws the reader for a loop? still angry at Drable ... gggrrrrrrr ...

p.s. Thanks! Love the photos you just posted! Double Wow!

Glad Midsommar från!! Enjoy!

Ginny well done research!

Ginny...I totally agree with you, I felt she never actually saw a Sibyl

So that is why I had to ask myself if the Sibyl for me was a major character who or what did she represent. ALAS....her subconscious MIND!!! Like I said...beyond page 3. I don't know if anything was real. I commend you on all the facts that back it up and the pictures are wonderful as always. I too felt a sense of flatness once I came to my conclusion, but I also was excited to be able to make some sense of so much senseless matter. lolo,

Hats...I love the imagination. As usual we were on the same thought process. Most of our inner most thoughts and creative ideas come from our subconscious mind. Hence, dreams are so vivid, colorful, imaginative, and mystical. Our subconscious mind allows us to go places our conscious mind restricts us because of fear, truth or rejection.

1. I proposed a theme of freedom/starting over. But by novel’s end, that wasn’t happening.

2. I thought I had an ace up my sleeve with the opening lines prior to Part One.

“Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings? And, not one of them forgotten before God.”

A hopeful message for a happy ending? I thought so. Went down that Yellow Brick Road for a long while.

3. Grabbed hold of the following and thought about being grateful for our mere lot in life.

p. 276: Candida writes, “Our little pitiful, feeble struggles. Sparrows and farthings, farthings and sparrows. Oh, we are the small change, and we know that.”

Had my “acceptance” of our destiny textual evidence building up. But, no.

Chased these ideas…Until BellaMarie’s Insistent Declaration and Part IV

More a bit later…after some work time

Dandy, who is going to take my conclusion "up a notch" and make you wonder about her sanity <g>

Bellamarie, powerful thought.

"Our subconscious mind allows us to go places our conscious mind restricts us because of fear, truth or rejection."(Bellamarie)

Dandy, who is going to take my conclusion "up a notch" and make you wonder about her sanity <g>(Dandy) (Looking forward to it)

I agree with Olle that this is a fairly straightforward story. Drabble is not trying to trick us or trip us up. She's not writing a guidebook. She's writing about a woman trying to come to terms with ageing and the prospect of death. There have been several journeys in the book, both physical and metaphysical as she processes the idea that we all make the final journey essestially alone. As a literary device, Drabble has made Candida more solitary than most, but she keeps hoping, even at the end of the book, for some soul's companion to accompany her in the final stage of life. She accepts loneliness as the condition of her life but has opened herself to the possibility of something more.

The book spoke to me. I am Candida's age and also starting to think about the end of the journey. I have a husband and family, but really, when you get to the end of life, you must face whatever comes next on your own and hopefully your character or your faith gives you the means to face it with courage and even some optimism.

Just playing around here. If she never went to the Sibyl, did she ever go on the Italian journey at all?

What does her description of the Sibyl's cave remind me of? The description of the area around the Canal that "Ellen" gives. Perhaps she never went on the Italian journey, but instead went to the Canal and it was there she got her answer. As was alluded to before, she got her answer when she sat still and listened. To what? Her own subconscious. To the voice on the far side? She was thinking of throwing herself in but she does the turnaround and refuses to accept death.

So what is the difference in the content between the sections written in the third person and those written in the first? I have to look at the book again. Are the first person sections what happened and the third person sections her imaginary extensions of the truth?

Candida is definitely the classic example of the unreliable narrator. But how unreliable? Do we dismiss everything as fiction or is Candida sharing some of her truth with us? Is the truth perhaps lying under the fiction, attainable only if we stretch forth our hand?

Lizabeth....I think when it comes down to it, each person has to be satisfied with there is NO concrete answer. It is what each person takes away with them. I see it as what Margaret Drabble says it is. Refer to the prior interviews or my post for her quotes.

It is ALL and more of what every post concludes.

BellaMarie, I like your explanations and your bombs. Do you think at the end she found what she had hoped for? You think the "far shore" is the end of the book, what do all of you think it is?

I agree with you the characters are fictitious!!!

Hahaha There are many readers of the Aeneid who think Aeneas was a "shit." It depends on whose translation you use. He betrayed her but she fell in love with him, he made promises and he snuck out, a LOT of people think he betrayed her. Just like a lot of people think Drabble betrayed the reader in this one.

I enjoyed your explanation about how Margaret Drabble was attempting to write about US in the total representation of Candida and her friends.

Why do you feel "she sees the tree represents her live. Page 304. When she saw the tree still there she says," this really really pissed me off." This is her seeing her life in the same place unchanged and finally she is showing some real emotion.

Yes. After all this talk about being a "lady" and how ladies don't talk about sex or use nasty words, here she is with the PO' d business. REAL emotion, you say?

Why does this tree remind her of herself, why will "rescuing it" earn her salvation?

You think the voice of rescue is calling her when she says "I am filled with expectation. What is that calling me?

WHAT, not who? I think it's death. I think she's seriously disturbed. I think she has been living in this apartment, I don't know how long alone. I think there has been no Health Club no friends no nothing. I think to put it kindly, she's nuts.

Oh what interesting observations based on your having been a Confirmation teacher, I would have missed that ENTIRELY!! THANK you for the "be still…." GOOD stuff and a real bomb to me, including the 7 Sacraments, amazing parallels, GOOD for you! Never saw that or would see it had you not mentioned it.

Well bless your kind heart for those lovely words, I've tremendously enjoyed this too, but the fat lady has not sung yet, brilliant thesis, now let's see if we can tie up all the bombs!

EmmaBarb, 7 pm July 1 it is~! Hahahaa

Sisyphus in Greek myth was the son of Aeolus and Enarete, founder of the city of Corinth, reputedly the most cunning of men.. Sisyphus established the Isthmian games in honor of his kinsman Melicertes and fortified the citadel of Corinth.

Having observed the seduction of the nymph Aegina by Zeus he revealed the truth to her father, the river-god Asopus, in return for a spring of fresh water on the citadel. Zeus punished Sisyphus by sending Death for him, but Sisyphus chained Death up in a dungeon so that mortals ceased to die; the gods in alarm sent Ares to release Death, who came after Sisyphus once again.

Sisyphus instructed his wife Merope to leave his body unburied and make no offerings with the result that the Underworld gods Hades and Persephone allowed the supposedly indignant Sisyphuis to return ton the underworld to earth to punish his wife and make her bury the body.

Once in the world again Sisyphus resumed his life and lived to a great age. However when he eventually died the gods of the Underworld devised for him a famous punishment: to roll up to the top of a hill a rock which always rolled down again just as it was about to reach the summit. Sisyphus was the father of four sons, one4 of whom was Glaucus, father of Bellerophon. --Oxford Companion to Classical Literature ---

There is also a famous essay: The Myth of Sysyphus by Albert Camus

More!!..........

Bellamarie, I agree. Each of us will take something different from this book. Margaret Drabble writes in many layers. She doesn't give you just topsoil. She gives you everything that's lying underneath. My theory is what I truly believe. If I wanted to know how to handle loneliness, I don't think Candida is a perfect example to follow. There are other books about loneliness, I feel, that would lead me straight to the mark without so many other issues, dense bushes, being in my way.

Good points, Hats! I'm scrambling to catch up with all the great things you are all saying. Why then, WHY, your question the other day, if Candida is not quite a model for us all facing death as we must surely do, WHY write it? To show the struggle?

No matter WHAT our personal interpretations of Candida may or may not be, there are a lot of ends about the book we really need to tie up if we're doing a book discussion. Beyond the topsoil as Hats would say!

WHY put "Ellen's" section in there? It reveals a lot about Candida "she" has not.

WHICH section of the 4 is the truth? Are any of them the truth?

Why does the author of the book suddenly switch persons in the very last section?

Two questions from the guide in the book which to me are important:

"Submit whispers the wizened Sibyl….Be still….Be still…. Submit. . You can climb no higher. This is the last Height. Submit"

How might we interpret these whisperings? How might we interpret the statement and question that follow? "But it is not the last height. And she cannot submit?" Where do the Sibyl's whispers originate?

Why does Drabble construct her novel, alternating between narrative voices, in such a way as to call into question, with each new section, the accuracy and reliability of what has gone before?

The two above and these below to me are important. No matter what she was trying to do or how we relate to the character, we need to be able to answer these, what are your thoughts?

What is the climax of this book, the point to which all the action builds and at which nothing is ever the same again?

What is the point of this book?

Who wrote the glosses?

Who wrote the entire book? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

What does the Christmas tree symbolize?

Do you respect an author who plays with the reader? Do you think this author HAS played with the reader? Did you tie in emotionally to Candida and if so are you disappointed or not?

What does this mean? "Stretch forth your hand, I say, stretch forth your hand."

Yes, I became fully involved with Candida's gaining her independence and happiness. I rooted for her. Then, when I read Candida had not died, I felt like someone had punched me in the stomach.

"I don't think I've made a very good job of trying to impersonate my own daughter, or of trying to fake my own death. It's humiliating, but I'll have to admit that here I am, still alive."

I don't like getting sucker punched. Why didn't Margaret Drabble allow her character to say, "I am going to fake my death and these are my reasons." What was the point? Did Candida need "drama" in her life?

I don't see the Christmas tree as The Tree of Life. Really, I am not sure there is any religious symbolism in the book. Sorry for my change of mind.

Just leaving Margaret Drabble out of it, I think we should feel anger towards Candida. Why did she tell so many prevarications? Since she decided to prevaricate, why not explain her reasons for taking such false steps?

I am not angry with Margaret Drabble. Creativity gives the author the right to write anything he or she wishes to write in a novel. I am angry at the character, Candida.

Ginny...For me there are NO loose ends to tie up. I have answered all your final questions in my theory, summary and conclusion, using text to back it up.

I am enjoying each person's final thoughts and will check back throughout the day.

My brain is on overload from posting that final draft. I truly need a rest.

For argument's sake....I did not see Candida as mentally ill at all. I saw some depression, but I also saw healthy, imaginative, magical, and inventiveness in her character. I too was not sure where I wanted to say I began believing if ANYTHING WHATSOEVER was true. But ultimately, I needed to at least see her sitting at the laptop beginning the diary. After page 3. I have to say I questioned it all as to fabrication.

For me I feel Margaret Drabble did an excellent job in accomplishing to do what she said she set out to do. I personally do not feel she is an author I would choose to pick up and read in the future. I like many others like a less complicated, straightforward book that does not make you work so hard to enjoy and understand it. Yes, maybe we did over analyze it, and maybe we did get carried away with adding more layers than were actually there, but GOLLY, GEE, WHIZZZZ....I think Drabble herself did too.

In all fairness I have to say this book did amuse and informme. Until this book I had never heard of the Aenied and never cared for mythology what so ever.

So now I await the real fireworks....The 4th of JULY!!!!! and my vacation. And I fully intend to bring my not so complicated love story to read at the beach.

Hats...my dear friend, aren't Margaret and Candida one in the same? How can you not be angry with the both of them?

I chuckle at your new found frustration.

"I don't see the Christmas tree as The Tree of Life. Really, I am not sure there is any religious symbolism in the book. Sorry for my change of mind.(Hats)

It's also okay to change your mind and cancel out the religious symbol isms. But like I said it is what each person takes away with it and I am not asking anyone else to feel like me or see what I see.

I may get a little frustrated too and join the throwing of the book group by the end of the day.

WHY DO WE FEEL DOOOOOOOPED??? It was just a fictitious novel. Keep in mind WE may have created alot of our own frustrations we are feeling. lololol Like the saying goes, "Don't shoot the messenger." Although I have a feeling Ginny has those bombs pointing straight at Margaret and Candida.

I did say I thought Margaret Drabble would probably laugh at us in the end. Now I am finding it quite humorous myself. But then again I am told to have a sick sense of humor.

Great thoughts, I love it.

Mippy raises a good point (let's do talk to each other here at the end) in that if Drabble has created a character we care about at all, she's a good author. Do you agree?

Hats is angry at Candida, are you?

Dandy, bring it ON, I can't wait!

Ok so we have one answer: Bella says the Sibyl is her own mind1' Then why is she SEEKING her?

What a fascinating book to discuss, no joke.

Ssthor, I am interested in your statement it's a straightforward story (remember Olle is not to the end yet). But he may think so, too! He said he was perplexed, I am excited to see what he thinks.

How do you see her facing the end? Do you think she is doing what she says she is? Or is she "fabricating" the last bit also?

If Drabble is not trying to trick us up, how do you explain Ellen's chapter and the one after it? Is that not toying with the reader or what IS it? No we know she's not writing a guidebook, she left out what she saw in three days in Tunis, I knew right then we were in trouble, guidebook wise, and that she was not after the Sibyl. And probably did not go on the entire trip at all. Thus she is lying to us, she addresses us again at the end as "you."

Nor do I think it's a Guidebook for life. I hope not. Why does she keep trying to "rescue" THINGS, pieces of plastic, Christmas trees, do you think? Her "rescue" of the prisoners is hardly altruistic, is it?

I am interested also in your thought that she is facing whatever comes next with courage and even some optimism. I don't see that. I see wistful thoughts overcome by I couldn't go to their swim meets they would sink like stones, (good reason not to go to your children's activities) and perhaps a tad of too much vino in climbing the fence. I am seeing the opposite of courage, I think I see a woman in trouble.

But that's ME. I agree we're all facing the end of our lives. This may be the most clever and controversial book on that subject written. I am not sure that I appreciate, just writing this, Drabble's using the reader's own aging and inmost thoughts to make her point. But she IS entitled. I am not sure Candida is candid at the last, why should she be?

Lizabeth, I don't think she did go to Italy or Tunis at all.

OH lookit you.

The description of the area around the Canal that "Ellen" gives. Perhaps she never went on the Italian journey, but instead went to the Canal and it was there she got her answer

I'll be darned.

THIS is absolutely EXCELLENT:

Candida is definitely the classic example of the unreliable narrator. But how unreliable? Do we dismiss everything as fiction or is Candida sharing some of her truth with us? Is the truth perhaps lying under the fiction, attainable only if we stretch forth our hand?

Question of the year, what do you all say?

BellaMarie, It is whatever YOU decide it is... Lizabeth....I think when it comes down to it, each person has to be satisfied with there is NO concrete answer. It is what each person takes away with them

I agree. I agree, it's whatever you all make of it. There IS no right or wrong. Each person is entitled to whatever he thinks.

So what do we think about the questions anybody has raised today?

There are so many and they're ALL good!!

I liked this that Ssthor said:

There have been several journeys in the book, both physical and metaphysical as she processes the idea that we all make the final journey essentially alone.

That's a good one, and true.

It's time to ask also what you all think you are going to take with you from this book.

I think I am going to take the idea that I am now too old to run if chased by somebody.

That idea which I don't remember actually seeing in the book but which one of you quoted makes me think what Ssthor said, and BellaMarie said, it's about us all. But what she's made of us all I'm not so sure I like.

And HOW she did it is the foundation of the July 1 THROW.

I can't take her inspiring way of coping, I myself don't want to climb a fence to rescue a Christmas tree. I already talk to myself in supermarkets, I think that's enough. Hahaha

How civil you all are. I have never seen a group so divided, we've got all gamuts here, passionately felt.

But we have a lot of questions unanswered that need answers. What's the climax? Do you feel cheated? Do you feel angry at Drabble? Candida? Jerked around?

A ha'penny for your thoughts!

BELLA! Say not so, not after that brilliant explanation:

I may get a little frustrated too and join the throwing of the book group by the end of the day.

WHY DO WE FEEL DOOOOOOOPED??? It was just a fictitious novel. Keep in mind WE may have created alot of our own frustrations we are feeling. lololol

Another excellent question!

Bellamarie, I don't feel that Margaret and Candida are the same. The minute a author puts pen to paper she is creating a new person, an imaginated person but a new person apart from herself. Does that make sense?

Ginny...It was in jest. I am now toying with you all. I am perfectly happy with my conclusion as I so stated.

Because I feel I have answered all the questions to MY satisfaction I have to say I am loving all the reactions now. I am not the least bit angry with Margaret or Candida.

Ah, don't you see, whispers the Sibyl? The point of the Cumae bit, Candida never having been there, is.......... the entire thing is a fib, it's not true. The entire BOOK is a fairy tale. BECAUSE at the end not only does Candida say the trip did take place, she says they may plan another, to Petra. To Mars would be more likely. Don't you see?

I think she did cut her leg. I think she did climb the fence *** or maybe NOT, when's the last time YOU climbed such a thing?!>? Maybe that's a lie, too. *** after imbibing perhaps a little too much. I am not able, as Lizabeth asked, to separate the truth from the fabrications, but I think the truth is not as positive as some may hope and I think the author used Candida, and us.

Bella, hahahaha now YOU'RE toying with us. Well we can always fling the book anyway (and the computer) hahahaaaaaaaaaaa What fun! I agree totally!

Hats..."The minute a author puts pen to paper she is creating a new person, an imaginated person but a new person apart from herself."

You are forgetting that Margaret Drabble said she created a character much like herself only a bit more brave. Candida was in the likeness of Margaret. So yes and NO to your question.

Ginny...I said I would not disappoint you. I know how very frustrated and upset you were the first time you read the book. You told us from the beginning you were hoping to get more from us. I can hope you did just that and enjoyed this time around much more. Your animations of your bombs tell me you did!!!!

I think people's anger comes from the fact they anticipated...DEATH and it did not deliver. I think they found themselves caring so much about the characters and her life that the ending was a let down.

So....instead of us trying to chase ourselves around in circles as my prior posts long ago stated, why not lets try something much more satisfying.....How about if each person re writes the ending to their own satisfaction? Sound good, sound fair, would it make you all more happy? Oh gosh lets attempt it. I would love it!!!!

But you would have to give us until Monday to turn it in because my brain is on overload.

Bella, I am not angry with Margaret Drabble. I am angry with Candida. Candida is a character of fiction because this is not an autobiography. For example, I am sure Margaret Drabble is not a prevaricator or one who can not draw the line between truth and falsehoods. No matter how much of Candida is Margaret Drabble, not all of Candida is Margaret Drabble.

Margaret Drabble makes this clear in one of the interviews. She says while Candida had family troubles and lived apart from her family, she, Margaret Drabble, enjoys a close relationship with her family.

It's one of the mysteries of fiction, I think. We don't know where to put the boundaries between truth and falsehood. If we want a clean break, clear boundaries, it's time to read nonfiction.

I LOVE that! Let's do it!! LET'S DO! Brilliant! As they say in the beer commercials! BRILLIANT!

I've got to feed the baby, mine will come Monday I need to think about this!

Hats, in her interview she states it is autobiographical.

I based my theory, summary and conclusion on that and the text in the book.

Ginny, Okay go feed the baby I have to feed my day care kids lunch. I am sooooooooo excited you will participate. Come on, who else is on board??? We did move our discussion date up early so technically we still have one more week. Let's make it a fun one!!

No, I don't need to rewrite the ending. I like the book the way it is written by Margaret Drabble. I accept Candida. I just don't like Candida.

Bellamarie, there is more than one interview. I clearly heard Margaret Drabble say the differences between herself and Candida.

I thought she said it was not autobiographical. She knew lonely women, but she was not this lonely woman.

Dandy

I tied the knot on my Thinking Cap tighter when BellaMarie insisted that Candida was the sole writer.

When I questioned if Candida was well educated enough to fling around scholarly flaunting, BellaMarie suggested that Drabble could create anything she wanted. She was the author after all!

My conclusion ratchets up one notch, and it’s based more on an emotional reading rather than an historical or theological approach.

I pondered the other day if it was all one big lie. In fact, nothing happened. Candida just made it all up. Wrote out one scenario after another. The word “speculation” (can’t find the page number right now) set off bells and whistles. The “Ah” moment for me.

Nothing happened. Or maybe some of it sorta kinda happened. This I believe.

Turning it up a notch: This is the writings of a woman slowly going mad.

Hmm…textual support?

I couldn’t possibly find any if it is total fiction.

But I did find some things strange than already strange: early on – the French-speaking man, the ghost orchid, the “other” self, and “former” self.

Part IV was totally unbelievable to me: the wedding, the attention of the wealthy Finn (Come on! Please! Wouldn’t a philanderer go after one of the young babes at the wedding vs. a dowdy middle-age woman?)…Stuart Courage suddenly living in London not Finland…anticipating marriage to Stuart…the grandbaby on the way…the bizarre Christmas tree scene.

Look at the last sentence. It doesn’t have a period.

She is losing her grip.

Here is a woman losing focus. Here is a woman slowly going mad.

Over-thinking…lonely…going mad.

Dandy

Dandy, I remember that statement too. Post# 609.

I won't be attending.

I loved this book.

Dandy

I think a work of fiction must stand on its own, rather than requiring an interview with an author.
I look for a novel to tell me what the author has to say, independently of the author's biography.
Thus I don't think this novel had "legs" of its own.
I would not choose to read another book by Drabble.
I do not want to mourn a fictional and perhaps insane character.

Dandy, I loved it too.

You need to go back and listen again. Margaret Drabble did say it was autobiographical. When asked is Candida expressing what you think..She replied..."She is, she is"

I think more so Margaret Drabble has gone mad!!!

I completely enjoyed this book and was amazed and thrilled at the ending of it. Of course I'm left handed too hahahaha!! On page three (sorry don't have the book anymore) I believe Candida was setting off to finalize her life (kill herself). She chose a dingy place to live that she thought she'd hate. It turned out she starting liking the place and the people that were there, although different than what she was used to. She like the street and the small apartment and the restaurant. When she risked her life and got badly cut to move the tree to a better place...I believe that's when she chose life. I also think that the poem by Robert Frost called Birches is the poetic version of this book. I liked the book and without this group I would have never known about it to read it, so thank you everyone.

Annie, I like your theory.

I think most of us are all so close to the same thoughts. We may use different text to base it on but in the end we are all sorta coming to the same conclusion. Because of WHO we are unique, Christian, non-Christian, scholar, or not, woman or man we are all seeing it for what Margaret Drabble said it was...about a woman exploring and confronting the underlying fears of growing old. There is NO argument as to what all those fears include and most of us would agree mortality is at the top of the list.

It's like our journey in life...we all take different paths to get there, but in the end we will all meet our maker and for us Christians we will be joined with our Father in Heaven and have Eternal Life! I am sure that is what Candida was hoping for in the end since she did show she was religious.

Oh gosh... maybe that only one picture she kept of her father, was our maker in heaven.

I really must STOP!!!

The interview says that she is "projecting the kind of person she might have been" had she not been given the opportunities she had been given.

Dandy

I'm a writer of fiction, and I'm a liar. Just as Margaret Drabble is a liar. Why should I be perturbed when she evokes anger and impatience in me through an entirely fictitious character who doesn't do and say what I think she should? Why should I bother my brain about Drabble's geographical inconsistences? I'm sure they are part of her strategy in the Confound the Reader Game.

She's clever. Life is basically dull. So are people, especially the cliche-ed stereotypes Drabble has used in this book. She dreamed up a situation to make all of them interesting, even drab Candida, who had the advantage of being dumped by a stereotypical don.

Drabble threw 7 different facets of the same species into the same rowboat and lets us watch how they react in a dream world where fictitious Aeneos roamed through Virgil's equally dishonest imagination.

Drabble anticipates that we readers will anticipate that Candida will end up the creek dead, like Jane-aka Virginia Woolf, with rocks in her pockets. She's dropped crumbs of death by suicide clues from the beginning. We don't like it when she switches gears and Candida doesn't die at all. Author's privilege, honey

Nor do we like it much when the book ends with Candida's rescue of the skeleton Christmas tree.

What is it we want? We "middle-aged" intellectually curious bookreaders? (Beg to differ, BellaMarie. I'm old and proudly so.) It''s taken awhile for me to find that out -- the pride in age, I mean. The road can b e even more difficult than the one Candida Wilton, Wilson, took. Drabble has shown us a bit of that road through her own lying eyes and those of her characters. Take your choice, folks. Which ending do you prefer? If you like Fling the Book ending, then up and do it, for goodness sake. If you choose the rewrite-the-ending method; then do that. It'd be nice if you chose Drabble's way of "What is it that is calling me?" What is this yearning human beings have? Why can't they be content with their moments of happiness, fleeting as they are? Why can't we?

See? Margaret Drabble makes you wonder and think.

Mal

A comment about reviews, videos and such.

I much prefer it when reading reviews, bios of the author, studying videos, etc. is postponed until the discussion is over. As far as I'm concerned, they influence me too much. For me they diminish the book itself, and I stop thinking on my own, figuring out what I think and make of a piece of writing and my enjoyment ( or dislike ) of it.

Mal

Malryn...I too am a writer of fiction and poems, and I love your straight forwardness. I agree with everything you say. In response and defense of what you said..."I much prefer it when reading reviews, bios of the author, studying videos, etc. is postponed until the discussion is over. As far as I'm concerned, they influence me too much. For me they diminish the book itself, and I stop thinking on my own, figuring out what I think and make of a piece of writing and my enjoyment ( or dislike ) of it."

For me I choose books to read because of what I know about the writer. I personally kept a very open mind and did not let her interviews sway my read. I just like feeling like I met the author in person. Every book has a jacket and on the inside it will give you a bit of what the book is about. On the back it usually will show you a picture of the author and tell you a bit about that author. Sometimes it will tell you how the author came about writing the book. So for me I like having the information, yet have never really found it interfering with my reading the book.

As I have said before...each person is different and there is NO wrong or right answers here.

Is it my imagination or old age neurosis... or am I beginning to feel under attack??....Ginny I think those bombs are targeted for me. I'm going to take cover, they are flying all over the place. ...

BELLAMARIE, no, no, we don't do that here. Make yourself a nice cool drink and go lie down under a tree on your hammock or something and take a snooze. That's exactly what I'm going to do as soon as I post this non-bomb.

Mal

Mal, Thank you I need just that. You are a wise lady.

I had a crisis at work today or I would be more vocal. I must say that my feelings about this book have run the gamut from total frustration to total apathy and everything in between. And I never would have stuck with it if not for this group. So thank you all for a stimulating trip, even if it is to a place I never thought to go.

BellaMarie, I’m very impressed that you can come up with such a complete explanation for the content and style of the book. I’ve reached some of the same conclusions, but I don’t have it wrapped up so neatly.

I’m not sure I consider quotes from Margaret Drabble’s interviews any more reliable than what’s published between the covers of the book, but her comments certainly helped me to think about what the book might mean. And I think when she was asked whether the book is autobiographical, she described what she referred to as a kind of “alternative autobiography.” I interpret that to mean anything she wants it to.

I’ve been reading more widely about how the body of her work is viewed. She is famous for taking an unconventional approach to narration:

“Drabble has also begun to experiment with the return of the outspoken omniscient narrator. Drabble’s rediscovery of an old literary technique seems timely rather than regressive. She does not embed the characters in the amber of the narrator’s point of view, preventing them from dramatizing themselves. Drabble’s omniscient narrator gives the reader a sense of place, a sense of location and history, without forcing the characters to bear the burden of carrying all that perception in their minds. It frees the characters to notice only what they perceive within the confines of their personalities, for there is a narrative voice to create the density of the social and physical scene” (Notable British Novelists, Salem Press, 2001).

And she is particularly tricky about the endings of her books. At one point she said:

“What I can’t stand about some novelists is the way they seem to imply that there’s a fixed and finished truth that their characters reach at the end of the book. There’s no end to learning. You’re bound to learn more. What you know at each point of your life is relevant to you then, yet it isn’t quite enough, because you’ve got to go on learning” (Jean Pickering, “Margaret Drabble's Sense of the Middle Problem,” Twentieth Century Literature, Vol. 30, No. 4, Winter, 1984, pp. 475-483.) (This quote from her comes from an article that I haven’t read in its entirety, but I’m going to, if I can get access to it.)

Like BellaMarie, I think this book is first about a woman sitting at home writing and second about the story she is writing. And because she’s new at it, she’s not very skillful. But she doesn’t let that stop her, she’s trying to write her way into a new life. She’s taking the stuff of her life--the Health Club, the Virgil class, the garbage in the streets--and turning it into something that she can call a new life.

When her demons get the upper hand, she seems to write in the first person. And when she’s feeling upbeat, the third person dominates. In Part IV, she switches back and forth between them. Throughout I think that one sentence is just as reliable--or not--as another. You can take your pick and construct what you will from the ones that speak to you.

Another thought I have about her writing has to do with her computer. She took a course, back in Suffolk, but she’s not that familiar with its workings, and limits herself to (I presume) word processing, which is a computer’s most familiar function. I think maybe she doesn’t know how to edit what she’s written, or doesn’t know how easy it is. So it’s all in there, as it came to her. She contradicts herself, rather than cut and paste her thoughts.

Which brings me to the mysterious sentences at the end of Part Two and Part Four. Again, echoing BellaMarie, I think a simple explanation is the most plausible: they are fragments, broken off, and don’t really mean much at all, or they are thoughts that she decided not to finish. And I agree that she was communing with her inner Sibyl.

I have some ideas on Ginny's questions, which I'll work on next.

I liked the suspense and enjoyed the trip. But best of all I loved the thoughts in each posts.

During marriage with children Candida was in a crowd but oh so alone. So it could be Margaret Drabble. Candida, wants to be rescued so bad she tries to rescue the christmas tree. But The tree she says maybe it wants to be there. Maybe that is it's home. But for me I have no home. This not my home. This is simply the place where I wait. I see a person who is looking for "complete" happiness which she has never had. Oh Romeo, oh Romeo Strech forth your hand, I say strech forth your hand.

I must go but will return. Ginger

Let me make clear for myself. I'd written that what happened to Candida was a tragedy. The book is not. It's about survival--meaningful survival. With interests, friends, reuniting with relatives, ec.

How might we interpret these whisperings? How might we interpret the statement and question that follow? "But it is not the last height. And she cannot submit?" Where do the Sibyl's whispers originate? I’ve got nothing that makes sense here, other than that these are Candida's inner thoughts. I thought I did, but I can’t defend it with the text. (Those are the rules, right, Margaret?)

Why does Drabble construct her novel, alternating between narrative voices, in such a way as to call into question, with each new section, the accuracy and reliability of what has gone before? I have this image of someone sitting at a typewriter, writing her heart out, then tearing out the paper and crumpling it up and throwing it away. That’s what Candida is doing with her laptop. She’s trying out different voices, different narratives, different approaches--and abandons them abruptly when she gets stuck. And as she says at the beginning of Part Four, “Here I still am, locked in the same body, the same words, the same syntax, the same habits, the same mannerisms, the same old self.” It doesn’t work. “I’m back in the same old story.”

What is the climax of this book, the point to which all the action builds and at which nothing is ever the same again? Sorry. This doesn’t seem to apply to a book that has no narrative flow.

What is the point of this book? Who wrote the glosses? Who wrote the entire book? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? Candida wrote it, all of it to try to become a new person. I think she’s partially successful. But she has her lapses. I think the glosses are her way of emulating Virgil. We've been doing it, too. It's kind of fun.

What does the Christmas tree symbolize? A pointless act, but it made her feel better, like the rescue of the plastic bag in the fountain.

Do you respect an author who plays with the reader? NO!!! I hate it.

Do you think this author HAS played with the reader? Did you tie in emotionally to Candida and if so are you disappointed or not? Yes, I think Drabble’s game is to play with the reader. I did not particularly empathize with Candida, because that’s generally not the way I read fiction. But I was disappointed at the end all the same. Well, the first time around I was furious. The second (or third?) time I read the ending, I was pretty apathetic. Then I got my idea about the computer, so I could sleep at night.

What does this mean? "Stretch forth your hand, I say, stretch forth your hand." It could be the start of a biblical quote, or it could be nothing at all. I vote for the latter.

Hats and Dandy_lion, I see where you did find these quotes from her interview and it made me question if I had misunderstood or misquoted Mrs. Drabble.

Hats..."Margaret Drabble makes this clear in one of the interviews. She says while Candida had family troubles and lived apart from her family, she, Margaret Drabble, enjoys a close relationship with her family.

Dandy_lion....Autobiographical?

I thought she said it was not autobiographical. She knew lonely women, but she was not this lonely woman.

Not Autobiographical.

The interview says that she is "projecting the kind of person she might have been" had she not been given the opportunities she had been given."

http://www.bookwrapcentral.com/authors/margaretdrabble.htm Posted by ChristineDC #416

In Margaret Drabble's own words:

<"A Form of Autobiography" "The Seven Sisters isn't Autobiographical in that I don't think I much resemble the narrator. She's a little younger than me, though not much, but she's divorced and she will never remarry I don't think. And also she's on very very bad terms with her family, which I am not. So what I suppose I projected how I would feel if I were a lonely person, who had quarreled with all the people who are near and dear to me, and of loneliness is one of the subjects in the book, loneliness in a big city, I think a lot of people are very lonely in London. And although I have family and friends and husband and support groups there are days I feel intensely lonely, so that little bit of my experience I wanted to put into the novel.

But I think I might have found the person I might have been if I wasn't me which is a form of autobiography, you are saying in these circumstances this is the kind of person I might have been if I hadn't had my opportunities. So every novel for me is a form of alternative autobiography of the person I might have been."

I think we would be splitting hairs to try to argue the accurateness here since she seems to say one thing and then another. Much like this book, she is not very clear on anything, NOT that it would make a difference in my theory or disprove it since it is MY interpretation and am not asking anyone else to agree with me. I just wanted to be certain that I did not misquote her or misunderstand her.

Candida also uses the third person to berate and belittle her character, as she imagines her somewhat disaffected daughter Ellen (or any severe critic) might do. She feels her daughter would underestimate her education, etc. Ellen says her mother has died after drinking a half bottle of gin and even dislikes the type of olives left in her refrigerator. Later, it seems Ellen is actually a bit kinder about her mother.

This is the alternate life Margie imagines could have happened to her and how she'd respond. Goodbye, husband. Goodbye, children's love, etc. And all of it in spite of her own tolerance and fidelity. It happens all the time. How many mature celebrities of every kind and everyday people, whose husbands can afford to start over, have intact marriages? Well, I can think of some. But they are noteable. Privilege brings temptation.

The method of using different voices allows the author to suggest the varieties of truth from something closer to a 360 degree perspective. Truth being in the eye of the beholder. I think of the Japanese film "Rashamon," where the story is told from several points of view. I like the concept, but in the case of that classic movie, the takes are so diverse as to be unsatisfactory.

By killing off Candida and then retracting that ending, Drabble shows us what a woman at the height of despair might imagine her fate to be. And then she shows us how the ending might be changed.

ChristineDC, All I can say is WOW!!! I knew the saying, "Great minds think alike.", but I never really imagined it. I love the whole visual of her at the typewriter, not knowing how to delete, paste etc. so she kept everything.

Thank you for taking the time to post those interviews and the parts you did today. I had found and read them earlier and was just tickled to see she does not like to tidy things up like all the other authors. Yes, it can be frustrating, but then again it sure can make a person think....or throw her books across the room.

Thank you for finding the alternative autobiography I knew I had heard that or read it in one of her interviews and can you imagine ME (miss orderly and precise) looking and looking for that post you had given us so long ago. lololol I was like a cat in a bag, knowing there was an opening but damned if I could find it.

Once I finally found it and posted it I decided to read your post and Alas!!! there it was. Now I can go rest my tired eyes and fingers and breathe............

Your theory was brilliant and the visual enjoyable. Thank you.

Ginny, Maybe we won't need to re write that ending after all. I had suggested it for the people who were so upset this morning with this ending so as to give them the satisfaction I felt they were looking for. I think clearer minds have prevailed.

I feel between this entire group we did not leave a stone un turned. I sure hope you have come away this time more insightful and more satisfied. And go ahead...release those bombs...throw the book, but be sure to lead us again soon my dear friend.

I think we've all raised our IQ's about ten points reading and discussing this book. Mensa, here we come.

O, BellaMarie - what a lovely writer you are - why don't you have a book out? Bet you have a dozen manuscripts in the traditional leather trunk!

Anyhow, I certainly go along with your interpretation. Annie3's too! After all, this whole thing is fiction - it's even fiction within fiction since Candida is sitting at her computer typing away, sometimes in different voices when that's the only way she can express what she means. She seems to have gone through a big turmoil and come out the other side a calmer and maybe wiser person - at least a more accepting one.

One of the best things about Drabble's style, for me, is the way she makes you look up words, track down references and check out places.

I just love that. I like books to be entertaining but a tad meaty as well.

About the Christmas tree - perhaps Candida with the help of some gin saw it as an emblem of happier times in her youth, a symbol of faith, warmth, generosity, love. - she had to save it. Don't discarded Christmas trees make us all sad? Many years ago, before we thought of pollution, we cut up and burned our tree in the fireplace. Our 4 little kids were watching and our son blew taps on his toy bugle. Omigod!! We all cried!!

I will certainly read more Drabble!!

I have loved this discussion! Thank you Ginny and all of you! Now on to the Aeneid!!!!

Just a few thoughts:

I do not feel cheated. I thought the book was interesting and the discussion made it even more interesting.

I don't think Candida is mad at all. My mother left my father for a while and really floundered. She wanted independence but she was so used to being with him that it came with a price. She eventually went back to him and died very soon after. No one ever knew if it was suicide or not.

I believe Candida is the sole writer of the entire book.

I agree with Mippy that works of fiction should stand on their own and like Malryn, I prefer reading reviews etc after I have finished the book so they don't influence my interpretation.

As to how much of the fiction is Candida's fiction, I am still not sure. I want to review the book and try to separate out what she says in first person from what she says in third person to see if there is a foundation to my theory that the first person accounts are her life and the third person accounts are her imaginings. I am not sure yet.

I loved everyone's posts and am delighted to have been part of this conversation.

Okay I think my theory fell apart. If Part I is true for Candida (first person) and Part II the Italian Journey is her imagination and Part III is Ellen but not Ellen because Candida says so (for whatever that is worth) and then Part IV A Dying Fall is mixed first and third but in the first person section, she says she got back from her Italian Journey which I decided never took place, then I am lost.

She also says "Shall I describe what happened on that evening by the Grand Canal?" (page 277) so she was there.But.... if I can't trust her third person narrative and if I can't trust her first person narrative, I am left where some of you are...with Candida typing all this on her laptop. Alone, Making up stories to comfort herself.

But from what? Aging? Loneliness? I want so much to believe that some of this is true for her. Her escape from a bad marriage. Her attempts to pull out of her depression. But I am not sure what is true for her and what is not. I am left with a big question.

So what does it mean for me? I have to think about that one now. I still don't feel cheated. I kind of like the uncertainty of it.

Lizabeth: "A Dying Fall is mixed first and third but in the first person section, she says she got back from her Italian Journey which I decided never took place, then I am lost."

And so is Candida. She is a lost soul.

Lizabeth: "I kind of like the uncertainty of it."

I loved it. I love putting on my Thinking Cap and not having it tied quite tightly enough under my chin, and then having to re-tie. It was that kind of novel for me.

Dandy

Towards the end of part one Candida says she has been rereading her diary. "What a mean, self-righteous, self-pitying voice is mine. Shall I learn to speak in other tones and other voices when I leave these shores?" She writes her Italian journal in the third person to try out another voice. Then she tries to look at her life through Ellen's eyes and describe it through Ellen's voice. She chooses Ellen for that role because she feels Ellen has been less sympathetic to Andrew's side of the story. But Candida is the author of the whole journal.

For me the attempted rescue of the little tree was about a couple of things. The fastidious lady from Suffolk is disgusted by the refuse in her neighborhood and decides to clean up one little thing at least. But on another level it's about feeling she has been tossed aside like refuse and nobody deserves that. It's sad that the little tree ends up right where it was before she tried to save it. Her neighborhood seems to have more than it's fair share of "disposable" people, like poor Jenny from the health club who disappeared without anyone paying much attention.

I can understand why we've had such strong reactions to Drabble. Quite a few years ago I read a number of her books and enjoyed them very much. When THE PEPPERED MOTH was published I bought it and couldn't get through it. The main character was so repellent to me that I decided not to waste another minute of my life in her company. I was very surprised when a post early in this discussion mentioned that the character I disliked so much was based on Drabble's mother and that it caused friction in her family. I'm glad that I enjoyed this one so much more. Drabble is quite a writer if she can create characters who evoke such strong emotions.

I did enjoy reading the posts and peoples opinions about this book. It did NOTHING for me. The character was a such a whining bore, she turned me off. There are so many of us who have to bear a lot more than the life she is complaining about. With an attitude like that... why bother to write about it, let alone expect others to enjoy it.

Let's hope the next book is a lot more interesting than this one. Colkots

"Then she tries to look at her life through Ellen's eyes and describe it through Ellen's voice. She chooses Ellen for that role because she feels Ellen has been less sympathetic to Andrew's side of the story. But Candida is the author of the whole journal."(Ssthor)

Ssthor, your post is a great help. I didn't realize Candida had written the whole journal. While reading, I thought Ellen had picked up and continued the journal. This makes me angry. Really, I think this is story about honesty.

When we put pen to paper or use a computer to type out a message are we free to become whomever we wish or are there certain rules of honor. Is our honesty under the telescope? I feel Candida doesn't have the right to write in her daughter's voice. It's an intrusion of privacy. Plus, she's being a control freak. She's now not just writing in her voice, she's writing in the voice of another person. This is wrong because Ellen might not have these thoughts or feelings. At this point, I feel Candida is playing god.

Probably, this has been answered. What was Candida's fascination with The Aeneid? Did she, Candida, in her mind become a part of Virgil's world? I also wonder can play with our imagination become dangerous?

Margaret Drabble, I feel, is a wonderful, talented author. She is making us think. We could dig for quite some time and still, have more gold to dig for in this novel. Margaret Drabble is an Archaeologist with a pen in her hand. We have dared to go a dig with her. A dig that is very exciting because we are questioning each other ideas, questioning ourselves, questioning Candida and questioning Margaret Drabble. After reading this book and being in such a discussion surely we will become wiser.

Mal, I am glad you are here. You are a published author. Your input is valuable.

Bellamarie, you are always valuable in any discussion. You have taught school. Teachers always have knowledge to give whether in the school setting or in another forum.

Because we question one another in a discussion or disagree with one another in a discussion doesn't mean we have decided not to remain friends. I do believe for a discussion to be meaningful we have to spread our wings and disagree or agree with whomever we wish.

Ginny's new method of discussion allows us to cross a boundary or barrier. Without those boundaries we gain new friends, keep old friends and dig deeper into the pages of the book. We showed our ability to remain adults without too much parental control.

Although, at times, I could feel Ginny, our Discussion Leader, needed to come back again and give us another shovel or pick to reduce our stress or to wake us up. She woke us up over and over again with paintings and links about necessary points in the book.

So, we will alway need our Discussion Leaders. We're still beginners at digging for truth and falsehoods.

I might disappear for awhile simply because I have posts to read and reread. It's hard to keep up with so much good information.

The Seven Sisters ends in a very strange way. First and third-person voices. An obsession with a dead Christmas tree. I would not have climbed a chain-link fence to retrieve a dead tree. And then, after ending up in the hospital, someone throws the dead tree back over the fence. It shows Candida as a very caring person, and others not so caring about the environment.

Ginny ~ Wow ! Thanks for those photos ! Never having been to any of those places I believed

The book takes second place to having been in this discussion and reading all of your thoughts. Without "all" of you, this would have been nothing at all.

Ginny ~ hahaha love your Sisyphus. I feel like that some days.

I may read The Sea Lady
I think M.Drabble could have added a few more pages to this one. Or, maybe a lot was omitted from the original manuscript where it didn't make sense. I never saw the significance of the ring Andrew gave her. She threw it in the pool knowing full well it would be found. What was the point of that ? If she wanted Jenny to have it why not just give it to her. Candida bonded with Jenny (she had cancer and died). As far as I can remember this was the only death ? Was this to represent Candida's fear of dying and fear of being alone when she did die ?
The place Candida picked to live was perfect for writing, lots of characters under the bridge and along the canal to write about.
Now that she and her daughters are speaking again and her trips to Finland and a new grandchild on the way, she doesn't really need much of a flat to come home to.
Candida will be fine. I have been entertained.
Emma

Hats..."When we put pen to paper or use a computer to type out a message are we free to become whomever we wish or are there certain rules of honor. As a writer of fiction<b/> I would be restricted in my creativity if I were to be expected to be held to rules of honor. The delightful thing about writing fiction is it allows my pen or keyboard to type whatever my creative mind can invent. I create as I go along. Sometimes when I sit to begin a poem or storyline I have an idea and by the time I have completed my work I may have gone off in a whole new direction. This is what I see Margaret Drabble doing with Candida, hence the visual I got from ChristineDC's post of her sitting at the laptop and not using her tools to delete, cut and paste. Is our honesty under the telescope? I feel every writer should and strives to write with integrity, but again honesty can limit the writer if they are using trickery and deceit as Margaret did in this book. I feel Candida doesn't have the right to write in her daughter's voice. It's an intrusion of privacy. Plus, she's being a control freak. She's now not just writing in her voice, she's writing in the voice of another person. This is wrong because Ellen might not have these thoughts or feelings. Candida and Margaret have the right to make their story any way they choose because they are the ones telling it. Since it was all Candida's thoughts and feelings she tried imagining what Ellen would think, say and do. (We all do that in our daily life, we just don't put it on paper. I can't tell you how many times I have imagined a family member or friend thinking certain thoughts and I create a whole scenario...only to realize that person did NOT have a bit of my imagined thoughts.

At this point, I feel Candida is playing god." Candida's character is controlling she showed us that. I don't know if I would see her playing God, I saw her trying to undo all the things she found untidy and unpleasing and make it all tidy. (Hence looking for absolution and reconciliation) I vision the Ellen section as a puzzle...Candida's whole story up to this section was a scrambled puzzle, pieces all out of order and then she writes the Ellen section trying to fit the pieces where they belong and then decides those pieces are still in the wrong place so comes the final section. NOT that the final section is the puzzle complete in all the correct places. It's just she could not end the story with the Ellen section...Maragret Drabble does not end her books tidy and wrapped up, as you can see in the post ChristineDC contributed in her post.

Hats, my dear friend, I would be amiss if we did not find differences of opinions throughout our discussions. That is the whole body of the discussion. It is with great respect we are able to voice our differences, our inner most thoughts and feelings and know they will be received with mutual respect. Hats, you are not alone with the frustration and questions remaining at the end of the book. You are in a school of fishes....lololol and we all have different fins and colors...imagine how beautiful we look swimming around trying to find bits of food for thought. Have a great day!!!

WOW! Can you hear the creaking, it's quite loud, the squealing of the unused doors of thought, the bending of the metal as the door slowly swings open? That's me!

I do believe that I do see for the first time what MAY in fact have been a plausible story and I can see why some of you feel positive about the book. I can also see why some of you feel negatively towards it.

Wonderful wonderful posts, I must say some of the best I have ever seen.

I printed out everything said yesterday and thought about it all night long. Then I came in here and saw the new stuff, all great points and now am thinking again.

Here's what I think, for my own 2 cents now, this morning, before I must ask some of you some questions. The fat lady has not sung.

Way way back there Hats said she thought Drabble wrote this in relation or to overcome a writer's block.

Malryn asked what do you want?

It depends on what you're asking. For a book discussion I want a book that has several possible interpretations and which will lead to an interesting discussion. I think we have that in this book.

For a BOOK I think I would like a coherent plot.

I don't see that here.

Malryn said you all wanted her to die.

I didn't.

I wanted her to do what Colkots said, stop that incessant whining, that poor me. . I wanted her to win because if she IS all of US I want her to win. I want her to succeed, to have friends, to get on and be happy.

Guess what? I am shocked to see that's exactly what she did at the end. Then why do we feel so flat?

I keep asking what's the climax? I keep asking because she's attained everything she wanted but it FEELS anticlimactic, to me, and to a lot of you.

Why is that?

Because there has been no coherent plot. No coherent anything.

It's anticlimactic because that's what it IS. There is no climax.

It got away from her, the entire book.

Candida HAS succeeded at the end!!!!!!!!!!!!! But of course she can't enjoy it. For every positive there is a negative. Of course it's only been 4 years. So we can give her that and at her back she always hears…"Time's winged chariot hurrying near" (Marvelle). As do we all.

So Drabble DID tie up the ends. She DID. Then, I believe because she could NOT continue her parallel sub plot analogy of the Aeneid, having tied UP the ends, she threw in the Christmas tree episode for a little…. What? Circe? So as to cover her plot deficiencies and make the reader think?

It makes no sense. The closest to sense I've seen for me Joan Robert's feeling of pity for the tree, and Bella's religious bomb if you ascribe to it, and Christine's her trying to make a new life out of clearing out the rubbishy things, Ssthor's explanation of it, that DID make sense. But even THOSE excellent and plausible explanations do not constitute a climax.

Then she, because she hates authors who tie up the ends, throws in the quite famous quote Stretch forth your hand…just to give us something to speculate about and make her writing look…..profound. What a boffo ending. Who is it saying that paraphrase? Is it Aeneas to his father Anchises? Is it one of the Bronte sisters? Is it the Old or New Testament? Is it Virginia Woolf in Orlando? Is it Eusebius? Do a search for it in all of its iterations, you'll be surprised. Who did she lift that from?

I'll tell you since we're being honest what I think it is.

I think the book got away from Drabble. I think the Aeneid subplot simply fizzled at the end, she could not hold it together. She started well, and used it as an underpinning, it's quite fashionable now to refer to the classics in a knowledgeable way. I think she started out with her persons TO do something but as Lizabeth noticed, it did not hold true. And she was too…what…lazy? Blocked? Stymied? To fix it. I thought the Ellen thing was brilliant but then she did not know how to end the book, so she just petered out on a wing and a quote and left it for OUR imaginations and the sequel. It does not show to me a great deal of work. Christine talked about Candida not knowing how to use the Edit button. Drabble knows how and did not.

She IS a good writer. Would you feel the same if this book were about a 20 year old? No because she's pushed all our buttons with the character and the themes. She's USED the reader.

I am not going to read another Drabble, but I WOULD read a sequel: Ellen's book.. I would read Isobel's (remember her? The cardboard 3rd daughter?) I would read a book made up of all their voices including Andrew's and Anthea's, to find out what happened to her, really.

I don't think Vergil was a liar, at all. The Aeneid is regarded almost as a sacred book. He spent 10 years of his life carefully writing it, and died at Brundisium after going East to see the places he had described for accuracy. (Something maybe Drabble might consider doing). He made Varius promise to destroy his book upon his death, which Augustus overruled, it was the Roman sacred hymn. Dante regarded Vergil as "the greatest poet," and a "prophet of Christianity." After his death he took on cult status and miraculous powers were attributed to him. The sortes Virgilianae (Vergilian lots) which consisted of opening his books and picking a line at random, which would then tell the future (shades of the Sibyl) were practiced by quite a few figures of history, including Charles I.

There appears nothing anywhere which suggests that Vergil did not try earnestly to be accurate about his poem of the founding of the Roman civilization and the gods which they felt directed its destiny, so I believe his intent was different.

By "honesty" in a writer I mean I think Drabble had a good thing going and could not finish it. Could not tie in the Aeneid at the last, so she opted for a Sibylline whisper a copy of what the Sibyl said to Aeneas, stretch forth your hand, I say. But Drabble is no Sibyl. What IS it now that Candida is supposed to reach for?

You tell me?

Maybe she's not through. Maybe this latest book on the same type of woman was intended at the beginning to carry this character thru and she still couldn't do it.

I found I can't write the ending, Bella Marie, because at first I'd have the last voice be a police report: she'd be dead. Then when I read that Malryn said we all WANTED her dead due to all the hints I had to think what I did want, and it wasn't her dead. It was what Colkots said, an end to the incessant whining, a sense of thank God I have two eyes and two feet TO walk to the Canal. I have a grandchild coming. I have my health and I have 3 daughters whom I can try to reach out to, and I have friends, and while I can I want to savor life and enjoy it, what part is given to me. I want her glass at least 1/3 full. She is younger than I am, and I have not walked in her shoes, but 4 years is enough. Get over it and get on with whatever you have left in your life.

The Throw the Book Party will occur not here but privately at 7 pm wherever anybody wants to do it on July 1.

I will first throw my copy in the air as tribute to her for writing a book which has produced (and is not over, we have many more here to hear from) such an outstanding discussion, and to you, each of you, in tribute for your great points which I'd like to take up with you , I have some questions, and then where I throw it will be my own choice. But I will throw it.

Now I have to read Birches which Annie said this reminds her of. It reminds me of an inferior Bee Season. I need to know the climax. She does NOT have to write with any structure whatsoever, she can write a poem in prose if she likes, create an entirely new creative form: The Drabble Dibs, but this time, to me, the writer comes thru too strongly with her devices which don't QUITE work, and her machinations which don't QUITE tie in.

Then to say well I hate people who tie up all the ends is ridiculous. I think she simply ran out of ideas, could not finish the book, said well heck I don't have to tie it up, here it is. I'm a writer, I'm creative, this is a work of literature. I've proved that with my erudite references.

Nope, the character seems real, that part is fleshed out and well written, you want her to succeed (or shut up) but the plot is poorly constructed. I truly believe she had a great idea and ran out of steam at the end. It fizzles and is anticlimactic because there IS no climax, at all.

A climax is what the entire book builds up to and then after it everything has changed. What is the climax? Her at the Sibyl's Cave? That's what we're supposed to think. I repeat she never went there, Ellen says so, also. Is Ellen the voice of truth in this book?

What is the climax? Some think it's the Christmas tree, but she does not change after it.

What is the climax?

And what IS it she's supposed to reach for now?

"I am filled with expectation. What is it that is calling me?

Stretch forth your hand, I say. Stretch forth your hand

WHAT is it that is calling her, do you think?

WHAT is it she's supposed to reach for now? She said initially as quoted by BellaMarie she hoped to make something significant out of her own insignificance? What is it?

What is the climax of the plot of this book?

Ginny..."Then to say well I hate people who tie up all the ends is ridiculous. I think she simply ran out of ideas, could not finish the book, said well heck I don't have to tie it up, here it is. I'm a writer, I'm creative, this is a work of literature. I've proved that with my erudite references.

Oh poppykosh!!!!.....lolol...I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I can NOT see Margaret Drabble this infamous writer running out of ideas and not finishing a book nor having a writer's block with this book. As a writer myself, and Mal can jump in here, NO writer can live with an unfinished piece of work and allow it to go to print. I am thinking in a writer's mind. If people can NOT come to a satisfied feeling at the end of the book its because they want the ending they were expecting, what ever that is. That is why I suggested each person re write the ending to satisfy them self. I personally am okay with the ending. Like Mal said, and what a wise lady she is...

"Take your choice, folks. Which ending do you prefer? If you like Fling the Book ending, then up and do it, for goodness sake. If you choose the rewrite-the-ending method; then do that. It'd be nice if you chose Drabble's way of "What is it that is calling me?" What is this yearning human beings have? Why can't they be content with their moments of happiness, fleeting as they are? Why can't we?"

Ginny... "A climax is what the entire book builds up to and then after it everything has changed. What is the climax? Her at the Sibyl's Cave? That's what we're supposed to think. I repeat she never went there, Ellen says so, also. Is Ellen the voice of truth in this book?

The climax for me was the leading up to meeting the Sibyl. Was it flat? YES! But is was the climax. She did get there in her own mind. It just was NOT physically as you expected, that is why she could not describe it the way it actually is in your pictures.

Did things change from there? Yes, she attempted to change everything around in the Ellen section. Keep in mind the Ellen section is NOT necessarily the truth either. Again...It's Candida speaking for HER. NO ONE but Candida typed this diary.

Did she run out of ideas and leave the book unfinished? I think NOT!!!! No writer runs out of ideas and leaves a book unfinished unless it's Virgil who died before he could get to it. As a prior post of mine.. If Margaret Drabble was trying to imitate Virgil's Aenied by leaving an unfinished ending it was ON PURPOSE. Not because she ran out of ideas and let it go to print, not because she was lazy. As a writer of integrity Drabble would not and could not do what you are suggesting, for the reasons you imply.

Like I said.........It is what each person sees it to be. NO two people can see, think and feel the same after reading anything. I sit at my Bible study each week with 15 other people. We read one small reading and then discuss it and it totally amazes me where the interpretations take us. I mean literally, mentally and spiritually AMAZES me. That is what you all did in this discussion. KUDOS!!!!!

I agree with BellaMarie that the book was no mistake. I don't think Drabble would have permitted something that she did not consider finished and well-written to be published.

I also believe she did meet the Sybil but it was in her mind. If we accept that none of these events really did happen, then Candida has a very rich subconscious and is trying to work through her version of reality.

What actually happened or did not happen is probably not important. What is important is Candida's process of coming to grips with who she is. I do believe she is around 60 and alone with her computer. I think perhaps this book is like a form of therapy for Candida. She writes in first person and then distances herself as the third person narrator to get a new perspective. Only Candida know the truth.

The final quote I believe is from Luke 6:10.

And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

I thought that quote was very revealing. I have to think about it a bit. When he reached out he was restored. What is Candida telling herself? Now that this book is over, I am ready to reach out. That would be a very hopeful ending...I have the faith that when I reach out, I will be restored. I am putting away my laptop and going into the world, Finally.

OH Lizabeth (you great little snoop) ..............look at YOU!!!!!! You see it, grab it and don't let go!!!

Ginny, I hear the FAT LADY singing...Shhhhhhhhhh be still, can you hear it..........shhhhhhh be still.

I agree that the visit to the Sibyl's cave was the climax. For me, it is immaterial whether she actually entered the cave or whether this was merely a meditation of some kind. She was hoping for some sort of inspiration or insight and what she got was not what she expected. The rest of the book is falling action or anti-climax. Some novels are plot-driven and some are character-driven. This is a character study where we get to know this one, fictional woman really deeply. She's dealing with problems we all eventually confront and while I don't think she's intended by the author to be a role model, she does spark ideas in the reader, such as, what are some meaningful ways to confront ageing. lonliness, death.

I thought the ending had a hopeful note. She has pretty much accepted that this is her fate, this flat, this life, but she remains open in her heart to other possibilities and she's ready for them, with her hand stretched forth to grasp them.

I got busy with reading for my college classes and didn't post after the first week, but loved all your postings and "ditto" to Hats comments on Ginny's leadership. Loved all the links, missed some of them, but what i saw was informative......looking forward to the next fiction discussion.....hope i can be more involved......i'm preparing for a discussion i'm going to lead at our community school on "presidential couples." Means a LOT of reading and note-taking......but i love it!!.....jean

(Ginny)My Dear Mrs. Jerrold,

I have so enjoyed this book and the discussion. NO ONE could have held our attention, challenged us and kept us going the way you were able to. Your knowledge is so beyond my imagination. The places you have traveled and experienced are dreams of my future. I, like Candida may only visit them through my subconscious mind, my poems and stories. Yet, with your wonderful pictures I will be able to visualize them with more accuracy and wonder.

YOU, are a true gift to any person who decides to join your book discussions. I admire and respect you more than you can know. Thank you for allowing me to "toy around" with you, and make light of a few more serious situations. YOU are a great peer and leader.

I can only hope to ...."Stretch forth my hand, stretch forth my hand and reach the heights inferred.

Thank you, I look forward to another book discussion with you as our leader. For now relax, enjoy and take a breath. And go throw that book..................anywhere your mind can think of!!!

As for me, I am going snooping to find Mal's books to read. How can I NOT!

Love, bellamarie (aka Candida)

p.s.Thank each and everyone of you for your insights,and respect. We were a fine group if I do say so myself. And yes, "Great minds think alike."

Ginny: Your thoughts on the book certainly resonate with me. Just for laughs, I tred to imagine the reception of this novel if it had been written by an unknown author . . . . Somehow I don't think it would have seen the light of day.

The statement that fiction writers are liars is not original with me. I can't remember where and when I heard it.

Prose writers and poets who write about a person who never existed expect their readers to believe that this person existed and that what happens to them in their literary works did happen. Often real places and real people, alive or dead, are brought in to add to the author's credibility. This is what is meant by the statement about liars. Didn't Virgil do this, GINNY? Did Aeneos really exist? We believe Virgil. We believed Margaret Drabble. We believed unreliable narrator, Candida, too, until bright-eyed, alert Ginny spotted her lies, which I think Drabble put there deliberately.

It doesn't matter to me who wrote the diary, the third person account of the trip and the Ellen section of this book. What matters to me is Candida's evolution from the prison state she put herself in because she had been rejected; was no good -- in her opinion, etc., etc. -- to the person she became.

The poster here who said Candida had been put out with the refuse was right on. My parents gave me away when I was 7 years old and had polio. They had to. There was no money to pay for four children, one dreadfully ill with a paralysing disease. Years later a psychologist told me I'd been put out in the trash. Or so it must have seemed to me as a child.

It happened again when my husband of over 20 years asked for a divorce because he was in love with my sister, and, as he put it, I was turning into a lush. (But don't go to AA, Marilyn. That would be bad for my reputation.)

These rejections are terrible blows. I don't blame Candida for whining. The whining might have been a substitute for screaming or buying a gun and doing the guilty party in.

The first time I read and discussed this book I had no patience with Candida because she hadn't sprung back in the same way that I had. Now I'm not sure I'll ever completely spring back from the first rejection, never mind the second one. But I get along, and certainly have proved that I may be semi-crippled, but I am strong and able!!

I don't know how Drabble knows these things because I don't believe this book is autobiographical in any other way than all books are autobiographical; the manuscripts bear the fingerprints of the writer, no matter what you write. She said essentially the same thing in the video I watched.

I, too, put myself in an inferior neighborhood where I'd be invisible, after my marriage, just as Candida did. I threw my wedding ring in the garbage disposal toward the end of the marriage when I was beginning to know that my husband and sister were betraying me. (Later I sold my good-sized diamond engagement ring and other good jewelry I had, along with sterling silver bowls and pitchers and two sets of sterling silver flatware, one with a service for 12. Because $700 a month alimony was not enough to live on.)

I am a graduate of a fancy women's college, was an accomplished musician, and when my marriage collapsed I was afraid to try for a job because I thought I couldn't do anything except clean house. When I finally got up nerve to apply for work I was refused because the Disability Act hadn't seen the light of day, and my disability is very visible.

Drabble's impression of a woman thrown out on the street for the first time in her life is quite, quite accurate.

I believe the book is the way she planned it to be. Whether it works or not with the different points of view, I'm not sure. I can remember writing about myself in the third person when my hell-of-that-time was going on. I put myself on the stand and cross-examined myself as my husband would to prove my guilt, in the lonely places where I first lived. Thank God I quit it, just as Candida is doing at the end of the book.

I thank Ginny and Margaret Drabble for one of the best discussions I've ever experienced. And thank you all, especially you, Bella Marie, who appear to understand my language!

Stretch forth your hand, whoever you are, and help me over the rough spots, will you, please?

Mal

P.S.

GINNY, now I'm going to read Tina Brown's Diana Chronicles. What you said in the Book Nook intrigued me.

Mal

Late...late.....late.. I have been in no wifi rv camps for two days and finally on Saturday am back on the air. I was devastated by the last of the book..First the Ellen nonsense.. Then the uplifting of Candida and then boom...nothing. Is that all there is as Judy Collins used to sing?? No more Drabble for me.. She cheated me. Going to the Mall of America tomorrow. More on big time silliness by Moday or so..

A thought on the book having a climax...

We have learned that Drabble is a writer, who colors outside the lines: write nontraditional books. She hears her own drummer.

Try to think of this book as a piece of fiction vs. A Novel.

Since Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, nonfiction is now nonfiction and creative nonfiction.

Does that help?

Dandy

Malryn--

Thank you so much for sharing your experience, strength and hope. The fact that this book has resonated with some of us is worth the read. But more importantly to me, this discussion was fun. I loved reading the posts. I had a good time. And right now, in my life, that is VERY IMPORTANT.

We all have our burdens, but the one you mention is a very special one which could have implications for you. Some would say that's even inevitable. Hope not. Thank God you are smart enough to deal with such an apparent tragedy.

Best wishes to you. It sounds as if you're doing fine. As difficult as this book is, it's not half as difficult as real life. Now there's a challenge.

I would like to share my poem that is published in the International Library of Poetry. It has awarded me a nomination of poet of the year. I am NOT as I said Margaret Drabble was doing, "showing off" I just want to share this with you all because I can see so clearly how Candida traveled in her mind to the places she did in The Seven Sisters.

In all honesty I have been to none of the places I mention in this poem. I thank God I have the ability to conjure them up in my mind.

Wandering Mind

Oh the places I can go as I let my mind wander....

Castles, meadows, rolling Irish hills,

Ships at port, shepherds, mercantile and mills.

Lying on a grassy knoll, stillness, I ponder.

Oh the places I can go as I let my mind wander....

Riding next to my white knight in the morning dew,

Resting on an aimless sailboat, soaring in puffy clouds of blue,

Dancing at a queen's ball, a tea party in a flower garden.

Oh the places I can go as I let my mind wander....

Peaceful and tranquil is my mind, praying at St. Peter's square,

Hearing Santa Lucia in a gondola, south sea in my hair,

Skiing down the slopes of Sweden, or resting at Cape Cod.

Oh the places I can go as I let my mind wander....

Sitting in my rocking chair, baby sleeping in my lap,

Countries, cities, towns galore, in my head a map.

Baby stirs, back home I shall return,'til next time baby naps.

A. Marie Reinhart

I have loved this discussion, but not Margaret Drabble.. I think I felt mostly cheated because she invented interesting people for the most part and then went nowhere with them. She is off my book list for a while.. No more slices. I want a plot and lots of interesting things happening.

Thank you to BellaMarie for sharing that lovely poem. How incredibly appropriate that is for this book. Oh my... Because I believe now that is exactly what Candida was doing...the entire trip and all the adventures were in her mind. It is almost as if the writer (Drabble) was writing a book about a writer (Candida) who was writing a book.

Now back to BellaMarie. So if the places were all places you never visited, was the baby really in your arms when you were inspired to write this? Was that fiction too? (You see we have the same kind of questions here as we have of the book...)

And back to Drabble...if Candida is sitting at her laptop the entire time, what is the climax of the book?

I know this might be far-reaching but perhaps the climax is our realization that she has never moved. It comes after the reader has finished the book. It is the lightbulb moment when we realize the entire book is from Candida's imagination. That does not mean that 100% is made up because like all authors she draws from her life experiences. What it might mean is that what parts are true for her and what parts are not true is not important. What is important is that Candida never moves from her room.

The other possible climax is when Candida finishes the book, because then I believe she gets up and is finally able to open the door. She stretches forth her hand...and is restored.

Or the part when we put the book down and get up and open our doors.

(Early morning musings...)

If SHE can ask about Ibsen, we can ask about her! hahahaa LOT of irony in this thing, I'm bad with irony but I AM seeing it, finally.

Gosh, great posts and points on top of a sea of super things, I've been thinking about everything you took your time to carefully add to the conversation here in the last several days. I think I'm changing my mind again!

Stephanie, " ...she invented interesting people for the most part and then went nowhere with them." Yes. She DID have a plotline and a structure at one point and she… but the question IS on this 11th reading hahaah DID she go nowhere, see below (somewhere) for a change I see: a Whining Change.

BellaMarie, how beautifully you write! Thank you for that beautiful poem! WHOOP! that is published in the International Library of Poetry. It has awarded me a nomination of poet of the year.

Good heavens!!! We all hope you win! You GO GIRL!!! THAT'S the time.

And a good point made that you can imagine those things you don't have to go there.

Annie thank you for that beautiful post. The minute I saw knitting I thought of you! Hahahaa I have now read Birches by Robert Frost. Thank you for bringing in a bit of comparative literature. I particularly think these lines apply, smart you:

It's when I'm weary of considerations,
And life is too much like a pathless wood
Where your face burns and tickles with the cobwebs
Broken across it, and one eye is weeping
From a twig's having lashed across it open.
I'd like to get away from earth awhile
And then come back to it and begin over.

But then he makes it clear when Drabble does not:

May no fate willfully misunderstand me
And half grant what I wish and snatch me away
Not to return. Earth's the right place for love:
I don't know where it's likely to go better.

Frost is very powerful I think.

Annie is seeing the Christmas tree episode as where she chose life, having set out TO kill herself! Powerful stuff, Annie. That makes the Christmas tree episode the climax, after which everything changed. It's possible. That's a plausible explanation and I think I DO see humor in the pseudo whine about the children sinking like stones in the swim meet. I rolled my eyes on that one, but as you can see here somewhere I've recanted. Hahahaa

Dandy I can accept this: We have learned that Drabble is a writer, who colors outside the lines: write nontraditional books. She hears her own drummer.

"A poem should not mean but be" type of thing?

But this one stops me:

Try to think of this book as a piece of fiction vs. A Novel.

What is your definition of a Novel? A novel is a piece of fiction. I am trying to say that no matter how much we tie into the character (or don't) every piece of fiction, even fragmented nonsense as some of them are, whether we know it or not, does have a pattern, something to catch the attention, otherwise it's a bunch of meaningless words. There are opposing stressors, there is action rising to a climax and there is a denouement.

She actually HAS written to a pattern, pretty much throughout, that's the irony: there is rising tension, opposing forces, yes she switches narrators, but that's not important…. But she's still following the pattern, we want to see what HAPPENS to her. That is because , there IS a plot, that's her creating tension rising to a climax.

If she had just listed random thoughts: " Poor me. Strange neighborhood. I think of water. Death is the end. I like Book VI of the Aeneid."

I doubt many of us would have read past page 10.

And Drabble HERSELF points this out! She points out the rambling "what's it all about in, of all things, Peer Gynt!

I thought Drabble's little barb there through Candida there of criticism mocked her own style in the book perfectly, by the way More irony here at the end, another little sly bit of humor, perhaps? "...was this great classic really as rambling and ill-constructed as it seems to them to be? What was it all about?"

Oh yeah, Margaret, if you can take on Ibsen and insist his book and the opera from it have a structure, I think I can ask what your own rambling ill constructed climax is?

The only reason I ask what is the climax is that I can't find one: to point out there isn't one. And that's why people feel flat at the end of the book. She seeks the Sibyl, but afterwards, what happens? Nothing. No change, no climax. OR is there a change?

Christine posted a review of Drabble's style: Drabble has also begun to experiment with the return of the outspoken omniscient narrator. Drabble's rediscovery of an old literary technique seems timely rather than regressive.

See whether we know it or not, there ARE patterns and she iS following them. Until the end. UNLESS ANNIE Is right on the climax.

more...LOTS more... hahahaa

Ginger, very good point on the possible loneliness of Drabble, and Candida looking for "complete" happiness. That's another good point! That's why she's still "looking" when what she has would be more than enough for somebody else! Good one.

But as Christine notes, And as she says at the beginning of Part Four, "Here I still am, locked in the same body, the same words, the same syntax, the same habits, the same mannerisms, the same old self." It doesn't work. "I'm back in the same old story."

However, if Dandy is right and she's slowly losing her mind then the lack of anything is right on. It's just not particularly CLEAR, is it? Maybe I'm the one losing my mind and here, I agreed with Barbara that we've "I think we've all raised our IQ's about ten points reading and discussing this book."

And I agree with Dandy in this: "I love putting on my Thinking Cap and not having it tied quite tightly enough under my chin, and then having to re-tie. It was that kind of novel for me. "

I agree, totally.

Malryn was right, Drabble did make us think!

Hats, I liked your IF s as they pertain to Candida, and those are something we also will never know. And Drabble may have done just that: filled this with truth and fantasty for a "bigger reason than just our entertainment." But again, who KNOWS!

Yes I think we discussed the Death of Vishnu, I can't recall now particularly about the plot but it seemed to have more bones than this one, while containing lots of mystery. At least structurally it was sound.

Olle, what do you think??!@??

Jean I am so glad to see you here, I wondered where you were! You've missed a great one.

Gum, I am interested in YOUR take on this!

Maggie? Where are the rest of you? Ollie Ollie Oxen Freeeeeeeeeee Now't the time!

SSthor said the book "spoke to me, " and Lizabeth is agreeing too this morning.

How do YOU all rank this book as far as being meaningful to you, and what will you take with you about it?

I thought this was really good, Lizabeth, on a possible climax, the Sibyl being Candida's inner voice:

Perhaps she never went on the Italian journey, but instead went to the Canal and it was there she got her answer. As was alluded to before, she got her answer when she sat still and listened. To what? Her own subconscious. To the voice on the far side? She was thinking of throwing herself in but she does the turnaround and refuses to accept death.

IF that's the case, then that's the climax: choose life. And if that's the case, the Sibyl IS Candida's inner voice, and that's pretty powerful for this morning, to me.

And in comparison with Robert Frost, I agree with BellaMarie, There are other books about loneliness, I feel, that would lead me straight to the mark without so many other issues, dense bushes, being in my way.

This morning you all seem to be pointing a different way, you Sibyls! Hahahaa

BellaMarie, you are much too kind. I appreciate what you did in this discussion and what all of you did, you made it live and you hung in here to the bitter end and by gum I truly think you are making a Christmas tree out of the (what I consider to be) junk by the wayside.

I'm not quite thru yet, I'm still struggling with a CHANGE needing to be in Part IV. Now SSthor thinks the end has "a hopeful note.

She says

She was hoping for some sort of inspiration or insight and what she got was not what she expected. The rest of the book is falling action or anti-climax

Ok so far we have nominated (even character driven books need a plot) as nominated climaxes:

The Sibyl scene

The Christmas Tree Scene

The end of the Journal: what else?

The Sibyl's own voice being Candida's inner thoughts

Christine, I agree about the idea of this book written by an unknown author, but it's enough like Bee Season to catch the eye. I wonder if perhaps we're all growing jaded and publishers are eager for the next "new thing."

I loved your take on the questions, thank you for giving them a shot.

I loved this:

But I was disappointed at the end all the same. Well, the first time around I was furious. The second (or third?) time I read the ending, I was pretty apathetic. Then I got my idea about the computer, so I could sleep at night.

I also this morning, quite unexpectedly, see humor. It actually woke me up in the middle of the night, and it was a serious thing in the book OH it was the sink like a stone. She could not attend (this is in the last "hopeful" section), her children's swim meets (water again) because they would sink like stones.

That's a JOKE!! Bomb for me, Number 3! Blew my mind anyway!

She does not mean that literally, her own previous whining notwithstanding, it's like YOU'D say well I would step on the scale but it would break har har har. It occurs to me that some of this maddening whining, it's possible she's been laughing all through this. I mean I am not up on all the nuances of the British sense of humor. THAT one I believe is a joke, sort of stiff upper lip ha ha ha, she's changed if so to humor.

I keep having the feeling she's putting one over on us. I can't seem to stop thinking that. If we only knew XXX or YYY. If we ONLY knew we could crack the code.

Lizabeth that quote for instance is repeated many times in literature, which application of it does she mean? IS her meaning here the same as in Luke? Or is her meaning what Aeneas said to his father in the Underworld? See what I mean? She does not give any attribution, it's maddening.

I agree with Mippy that a work of fiction should stand on its own legs, and I'm interested in her idea it has no legs and can't stand.

What do the rest of you think? Do you think this book will STAND 100 years from now?

Bingo to Christine: I must say that my feelings about this book have run the gamut from total frustration to total apathy and everything in between. And I never would have stuck with it if not for this group. I know I wouldn't have.

I think we could write a book on Ellen's book, I very much have liked each of your points on it, particularly Barbara's:

Candida also uses the third person to berate and belittle her character, as she imagines her somewhat disaffected daughter Ellen (or any severe critic) might do.

Maybe "Ellen's voice" is that small inner voice some of us have which does just that and which keeps us up at night as well.

I really liked your mention of Rashomon.

Lizabeth, what insightful musings on the climax for the reader and for the characters. Hahahaa For some reason (I'm writing this in WORD) your post keeps needing to be underlined hahaha that's an OMEN! Hahahaa Another one to add to our growing list then!

The CLIMAX of a book has to be in the book, do we see her getting up and opening the door or not? I am not seeing a lot of change, I must read part IV ( believe it or not) again.

Still more!

Malryn asked a question about what I personally thought about Aeneas: Didn't Virgil do this, GINNY? Did Aeneos really exist? and I would like to address it. I realize it's not particularly on the point of the discussion and may not be of interest to any of you, so I apologize for this segue but I would like to address it, since she did ask.

It will surprise you that the facile answer "of course not he's a myth," is not what I think. I don't honestly know.

I wonder. Experts thought for thousands of years that Troy (the city Aeneas left ) was a myth until Heinrich Schliemann found, what 10? 12 Troys? Troy supposedly fell in 1250 BC. They now know that some unknown cataclysmic event destroyed quite a few civilizations at that time

Romulus was thought to be a myth until last year when they found evidence of a palace dating back to 753 BC right near his supposed "hut" in the Roman Forum…

space of regal splendor Where previously archaeologists had only found huts dating to the 8th century B.C., Carandini and his team unearthed traces of regal splendor: A 3,700-square-foot (344-square-meter) palace, 1,130 square feet (105 square meters) of which were covered and the rest courtyard. There was a monumental entrance, and elaborate furnishings and ceramics…

Just a few days ago!!! DNA from Turkey (Troy was in Turkey) was definitely proven to be found in Etruscan remains, establishing without a doubt that the early ancestors of Rome came from Turkey. (I mean SOMEBODY came from Turkey to Italy about 1200 BC!!) hahaha?

The legend of Aeneas goes back a long way. Homer wrote about him about 700 BC. Hellancius the Greek logographer writing in the fifth century BC makes the first literary allusion to Aeneas crossing the Hellespont and coming to the West and "may even allude his being in Italy." (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature from which most of this is taken).

Timeaus, a century after Hellanicus, speaks of Lavinium as Aeneas' first foundation in Italy. There was good reason for the Greeks to attribute to Greek heroes the settlement of the west. It was a common thing. Even Pyrrhus saw himself as a descendent of Achilles. Romulus was thought to be a descendent of Aeneas.

So Aeneas, who had already existed in legend for almost 1000 years, and lived before written record, so that it had to be handed down by the oral tradition, was already thought of as a person long before Vergil came on the scene. Vergil did not make Aeneas up like Drabble did Candida Wilton and I doubt sincerely Candida will last this century out much less 3000 years more.

From the 2nd century BC on the Julian clan and Julius Caesar most of all "exploited their descent from Aeneas and Venus for political aggrandizement." Octavian (Augustus) was Julius Caesar's adopted son. Vergil's job was to celebrate the Trojan ancestry of Augustus, and recreate Aeneas as a national hero to celebrate the origin and growth of the Roman empire, the achievements both of Rome and of Augustus.

I don't think anybody thinks Vergil created Aeneas although he may have added to his fame and heroic stature and deeds, just like Disney did to Davy Crockett King of the Wild Frontier, it's normal to augment legends, but I think he also did his homework too, and was heavily influenced by Homer, and I guess it depends on which expert you ask if Aeneas was a real person. I don't know.

With all the mind boggling discoveries archaeologists are making, I truly think we simply don't know enough and in the next hundred or so years they will find things that will reverse what we think now. Technology will improve to the point that they can, as they've just been able to do recently, read what looks like a lump of coal which is in reality an ancient book, and read the leaves without destroying the whole.

They do every day as it is, all the museums of Roman antiquity in the world are having to put up placards saying we used to think XXXX but now we know YYYY. . It's a field which changes every day. Very alive. Even on film the expert and academicians battle and argue, the last one I saw was dated 2006 on the landing place of the Romans in England, some pretty intense academic wrangling going on. It's very exciting.

Most people would say he was a myth? Looks like somebody from Turkey made it to Italy just about the right time, tho.

I thought Ssthor also mentioned something interesting, she says at the end it's a hopeful note and "she's ready to go."

The End:

Ssthor said,

I thought the ending had a hopeful note. She has pretty much accepted that this is her fate, this flat, this life, but she remains open in her heart to other possibilities and she's ready for them, with her hand stretched forth to grasp them.

Do you agree? Do you agree with Annie this book began as a possible collision course with suicide and ended on a hopeful note? That it's moved, shown real progression from sadness to hope?

What do you see her DOING proactively to bring about a change?

??

I do hope I have not missed anybody in this true snowstorm of ideas and insights. If I have, I read it, I probably adopted it as my own ideas (sorry! hahaha) and I'm sorry if I left you out. What you have said has entered into our collective consciousnesses, that's the way our book discussions work: a Giant Group Brain with many facets. I believe we have set a record for a book discussion in posts in one month, and they are substantive posts with a lot of meat on them.

I'm going to reread Part IV one more time with what you have said in mind and see if anything leaps out. Ollie Ollie Oxen FREeeeeeee, let's hear from all of you!

If you're reading right along? hahaha You'll want to reread my rambling ill constructed green post because wildblue cut me off before I could put in Drabble's punch line, an ironic slap at Ibsen:

"...was this great classic really as rambling and ill-constructed as it seem to them to be? What was it all ABOUT?" Candida on Ibsen's "Peer Gynt."

What's it all about, Alfie? And is it well constructed? That's MY $63,000 question hahahaa

Oh my dear Ginny...you are truly that mouse on a wheel going around and around......lololol

Many of US saw a climax and a change or at least a possible change to come, and have expressed it the best we can. For YOU I am not certain YOU will find what you are looking for.

There is NO right or wrong, it is what each person sees. That is why some of us can accept it for what it is and be okay.

Good luck to you, I sincerely hope you find your peace as I hope Candida did.

For me.........THE END.

To answer the question was I really in that rocker with the baby in my arms napping when I created that poem?.....NO

It was all coming from within my mind. But, I do rock many babies to sleep and sit and create in my mind while they are soundly asleep. Being a day care provider I feel a loss from the outside world at times. I feel I do not connect enough with the outside world because my business and personal life are in MY HOME. I am not the least bit depressed, like Margaret Drabble, I have a wonderful loving husband, three amazing adult happily married children, four beautiful grandchildren and all the friends a person could want for. I just long to travel.

So now I shall go prepare for my swim/card party I am having today with my friends after a very exciting long....night being at my son's 30th Birthday party playing Texas hold em and Corn hole tournaments...

I'm not sure, BellaMarie, that everybody saw a change and expressed it. You may have, but I'm hoping to hear from everybody, those we have not heard from yet and those we have. They may have changed their minds! That's my job, running around like a flap eared dog, trying to assemble the various bones, balls, dog toys and other interesting tidbits into one place so you all can tell us what it SAYS, missing nothing.

I'm not looking for "right or wrong," just to hold Drabble to her own standards.

I am glad you are happy with your conclusions, they are great ones! I can see how your puzzle pieces fit: a perfect analysis. I'm not quite thru and the discussion is not over until July 1, you can see some folks still speculating this morning, tho some of us may be saying en effet, enfin! Some of us aren't. hahahaaa Let's see what other possiblities might exist for others.

For instance, I had not caught Drabble's slap at the construction of Ibsen before this morning, there might be more there. I like Ibsen. hahaaa

I will not find peace in Candida's story, there is none? Is there?

Never cut off while SeniorNet's Books & Literature is here and how we have enjoyed your comments and ALL of the comments. I wish I had a Day Care, I have found I love taking care of my little grandbaby a WHOLE lot. ahahhaa

That Texas Hold 'Em is something ELSE, have you all seen those tournaments on TV? Serious stuff here, serious players!

hahahaha No peace for YOU with Candida, I can accept that..tee heee but there is for some of us.

Our tournaments are for FUN!!!

Ginny, so long as you're going to give Part Four One More Try, can I raise the issue of the title, "A Dying Fall"? Back when I thought it was worthwhile to parse out the meaning further, I spent time on this. Like the final quote, "a dying fall" has a lot of antecedents, mainly Shakespeare and T.S. Eliot, and I struggled to make sense of them. But no more, I'm off to greener pastures.

Yes! You can and I will give it a try, I skimmed over that one too.

Shakespeare whom Candida says she likes:

From:

TWELFTH NIGHT;

OR, WHAT YOU WILL (1600)

by William Shakespeare

If music be the food of love, play on,

Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,

The appetite may sicken and so die.

That strain again! It had a dying fall;

O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound

That breathes upon a bank of violets,

Stealing and giving odour! Enough, no more;

'Tis not so sweet now as it was before.

O spirit of love, how quick and fresh art thou!

That, notwithstanding thy capacity

Receiveth as the sea, nought enters there,

Of what validity and pitch soe'er,

But falls into abatement and low price

Even in a minute. So full of shapes is fancy,

That it alone is high fantastical.

Oh it would be Prufrock, and it fits perfectly, doesn't it? (or does it?)

T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock (1919)

For I have known them all already, known them all:--
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
I know the voices dying with a dying fall
Beneath the music from a farther room.
So how should I presume?

Explanation:

His early poetry, including "Prufrock," deals with spiritually exhausted people who exist in the impersonal modern city. Prufrock is a representative character who cannot reconcile his thoughts and understanding with his feelings and will. The poem displays several levels of irony, the most important of which grows out of the vain, weak man's insights into his sterile life and his lack of will to change that life. The poem is replete with images of enervation and paralysis, such as the evening described as "etherized," immobile. Prufrock understands that he and his associates lack authenticity. One part of himself would like to startle them out of their meaningless lives, but to accomplish this he would have to risk disturbing his "universe," being rejected. The latter part of the poem captures his sense defeat for failing to act courageously.

From T. S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock (1919) That fits!

But even more to the point might be T.S. Eliot's Portrait of a Lady, which begins with the epigraph

Thou hast committed—

Fornication: but that was in another country,

And besides, the wench is dead.

The Jew of Malta.

and goes on to include the lines:

Well! and what if she should die some afternoon,

Afternoon grey and smoky, evening yellow and rose;

Should die and leave me sitting pen in hand

With the smoke coming down above the housetops;

Doubtful, for a while

Not knowing what to feel or if I understand

Or whether wise or foolish, tardy or too soon…

Would she not have the advantage, after all?

This music is successful with a “dying fall”

Now that we talk of dying—

And should I have the right to smile?

It all seems very apropos, but stringing together appropriate literary allusions is not a very satisfying way to tell a story. I am not an idiot, and I can't figure this out.

Ginny, I was at church today thinking of you and it hit me....This is NOT through until July 1 as you said. hahahaha So you go girl! Keep the minds a thinking, YES, that is your job and you do it very well.

I had always longed to have an in home day care all the 15 yrs I taught at an elementary Catholic school. When my first grand daughter was born and day care was needed I thought "WHO" better to care for her than ME, I have the most dearest relationships with all my grandchildren and get to see all their firsts and video tape it and take pics all day long and send to their parents at work.(And the other parents as well.) Would you call this a job???? tee hee hee NEVER, although some days I am ready to drop!!! You open that in home day care even if its just one child to have for a playmate for your gandbaby as it grows. Who knows where it will go from there. The possibilities are endless......for YOU, ME, everyone here and Candida!..

Have a great day, my guests should be arriving.

hahahaha OH Bella, there you are! We are posting together!

How many children do you have in your Day Care? I may need instruction in some things? Have you seen those new photobucket slide show things that fade in and out? I love babies, I now find, this is new, I may have to volunteer at a hospital or something.

Christine, hahahaa OOOOO, another good one. Yes indeed. Sort of as you said like Stretch out your hand in all its translations and iterations. Yes indeed. Thank you for that. Maybe she should write poetry.

Oh It's just a simple story. yeah. I mean if I told my story I think I'd leave Prufrock and the Portrait of a Lady with her needing permission to smile, that's apt, out.

Why put all these literary references in here then? To confuse? To impress? To......

And actually, Christine, you raise a VERY important point. Some people who would not react like "I am not an idiot and I can't figure this out," ARE in fact uncomfortable with something not told simply. Most of us are pretty straightfoward people, we long for this to be so, too. If it appears it's not, if somebody finds something we missed, it COULD make us tense, it COULD make us uncomfortable, what IS she hinting at? We MIGHT say oh the heck with that idea. I may not be up on my Eliot, what IS she saying?

That's one thing I like about our book discussions here. Whatever your own personal style, whatever you want to go out on a limb on, you can express it cheerfully to a cordial reception.

Here, as was said not too long ago, I think BellaMarie said it but Barbara may have, we can be who we are and if we don't like that type of thing we can say that and if we DO wonder we can say that. We may all arrive at the same conclusion or vastly different ones: the joy is in the journey.

I guess my point of view comes in part from my profession as an editor. I am not a scientist, but I edit the work of eminent social and behavioral scientists who come to Washington, DC, to advise government agencies on a range of science-related issues, from polygraph tests to pre-K science education. I'm often the first nonscientist to read the manuscript. Our reports are supposed to be accessible to the public, so a large part of my job is to decide if the average intelligent citizen could understand what’s being said and, if not, to point it out. So you might say that I’m a professional dilletante, and after many years, I’ve learned to trust my ignorance.

I'm not up on Eliot at all. I'm just a pretty good googler.

Wow, I did not know that (about your being an editor.) I am really enjoying learning things about our readers, their houses and how they choose to decorate them, their hobbies, etc., as much as I have the book, tho we're certainly not leaving ONE stone unturned. (Tho I admit I missed this stone! hahahaa)

Well then what are YOUR Spidey Senses telling you about Seven Sisters? Inquiring What's Left of a Mind wants to know? You'd probably have had a field day editing this one!

"Jonathan Miller, is one of the best, most fluent, wittiest and most sought after public speakers of our time. He is a dazzling performer, after the Cambridge manner- he tends to end each lecture not with a conclusion but with a query or even with an unfinished sentence, as Dr Leavis used to do". (Copyright Margaret Drabble, October 2001)

Sometimes thinking is not good for me. This book unlocked some things for me that I had hidden away, never to be thought of again. I will have to deal with them, or lock them away again. I choose to lock them away...again...to be forgotten.

BellaMarie ~ thank you for sharing your lovely poem with us. Congratulations on the nomination, may you win as "poet of the year". Happy 30th Birthday to your son.

Well, of course Annie and the others are right. There are hopeful signs in her intelligence and wit from the beginning. And if an author keeps writing unhopeful books, who will read them? One definition of the novel, I recall, is an extended story that shows people how to live in a world without God. As I wrote earlier. Candida has no (usual) God, and she's also in the process of learning how to go on living--activity, friends, reconcilation with loved ones, seeking a lover, etc.

I still haven't accessed that interview, but Drabble tells us there that the learning process continues throughout life. And in "Sisters" that the only resolution is death. What more do we need to know?

I usually agree with Lizabeth, as with Christine, ssthor, and others, but she's over my head when she suggests there was no trip. Is there something that suggests that, I wonder, or is it a kind of intuition? (Maybe I missed it.) An interesting idea--though it kind of blows my mind.

Sorry a few missed her emergence back into life (choose your own climax).

After I wrote the above (about no trip) it occured to me that the title ""The Seven Sisters" suggests to me that the women did get together and take a trip. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been that much connection. I'm still open to hearing evidence for that possibility, though it woud make me uncomfortable about the entire work if true.

Wow! I actually used my real computer for the first time since my long, ongoing cataract surgery. My daughter talked me through reservation information so our family can get together at the beach for a few days. Jealous?

Thank you Emma for that quote, so she's ending with sort of a Dr. Leavis device by leaving the last sentence unfinished! Good one , good for you!

I am sorry that old memories best forgotten have arisen. Our discussion here about Philadelphia in the old days has actually led to several great conversations for me among friends and...have you seen (I may have asked you before) Things That Aren't There Anymore?

It's a great video about Shibe Park and Willow Grove Park and Horn & Hardart's, etc.

I have tried to think since you said that and I don't believe in the literally hundreds of books we've read here on SeniorNet that ONE has actually gotten to me. other than the Liar's Club which I did hate, (super discussion tho, lots of opposing POV's), but it had no relation to me personally. I'm now worrying if something is wrong (or more wrong ahahaa) with ME.

Barbara, I'm glad you found others in the discussion whom you agree with and who you think are "right!" It's always fun when we feel we've got the answer, especially in a discussion like this about a book on which people have had to really THINK, as Dandy said, thinking caps really wired. Opinions all over the place, all strongly felt. All opinions about the book are "right" in this discussion.

I'm not sure how many others "missed" the grand awakening, but we'll find out.

I did like your point on the presence or absence in Candida's case of a God. She does seem to refer to a "god" on the far shore, lower case, why do you think "Candida has no (usual) God?" I love a book where each person can see something unique.

On the no trip, I think quite a few of us think there was no trip at all

I personally think there has been no nothing, actually, but I expect I'm in the minority there, and that's OK too.

I corrected that last line, because I didn't intend to sound mean. Sorry it didn't go through. I guess you all got a piece of my alter-ego, my dark side. Probably, I was just trying to be funny.

I've agreed with everybody about many things. But it preserves my sanity to know others see hope in this book and find it satisfying.

What line? hahaha Oh Barbara after a month in the trenches with YOU nobody is worried about you being snippy, we're comrades in tattered arms here! hahahaa

We've come thru (or you all have anyway) brilliantly, you really have. I guess I don't want it to end hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Snip away!

Ginny--

I have come to believe there was nothing also. I created other theories and then I searched for proof and found none.So I ended up with the theory that Candida never moved from her room.I think there is justification for that theory.

It was Candida alone creating a story and then telling it as if it were a diary entry, as if it were told by her daughter and etc. It was Candida working through her issues and her life. Perhaps some of it was true for Candida, maybe not.

But I do believe at the end, Candida stopped writing because the book ended. And I do believe she opened her door and went out into the world. I don't believe she stopped writing and then killed herself.

I just think the last line 'Stretch forth your hand" is hopeful because the source for it (at least the source I googled in the bible) shows that the person who did stretch forth his hand was restored. At least that is my interpretation.

So for me the book had a positive ending because Candida went out into the world. Or I created one because I needed an ending and I needed an ending that was positive. That could be too....

I have thought and thought these last two days about my interpretation of the ending: a woman slowly going mad.

I was almost convinced by Elizabeth's eloquent interpretations. You can be persuasive!

Yet...the character's credibility disintegrated when I realized I had been tricked...yet again...by Candida taking on Ellen's voice. My brain asked, "Duped a third time?" I am still reading Part IV as a series of literary fabrications.

I wish I could report a change of heart.

The second to last paragraph...I believe that's the place...spoke again to this is not my home and I have no home. I am still waiting. (paraphrasing here)

That gives me great pause. I still can't wrap my brain around that sentiment. There is a glimpse of hope in those words.

Hmmmmm...

Dandy

So, Lizabeth, this new conclusion is an overall interpretation? Okay.

Funny, I was saying a few weeks ago that there isn't always a specific quote to point to. And, sometimes, I'm just too personally lazy to go back to the book to support a statement. So I'll give everyone else that right too. And this final exam only counts 20% of our grade, right, Ginny?

I was always wryly amused ("Yeah, right") when a professor said a final exam counted 25% of a grade. With that 25%, a teacher could blindside and destroy a student, who'd then have little recourse.

Hey, what happened to that extra 'r' I tried to place in 'occurred?'

Ginny every day I have a different amount of children in my day care. Thursday is my heavy day with 6. I have parents willing to wait a year to get into my day care. I seem to have become the one the church and school recommends so as soon as a Mom finds out she is pregnant she calls to be put on the list. Of course I always keep the spots for my own grandchildren, although I will only have the one grand daughter once school begins again since my step grandson and my grand daughter will be entering Kindergarten. My son just got married and he and his new bride have begun trying and he said be sure to keep a spot for him in about a year or so. There is NO charge for my grandchildren, I get all the rewards I need just getting to be an active part in their growing years. Nothing like rocking that little baby and smelling the newness of life. Once bitten there is NO going back.

I have a handbook I have put together and I do a phone interview first, then if they pass that I do an in my home interview with both parents and child and they need to pass that. Because most of my families are in the parish I am not dealing with a lot of broken homes and the issues that comes with that. I am structured and even my parents who are teachers do not feel the need to send their child to a pre-school because of the preparation I am able to give the children. My one family does not call me a day care they call me his school. lolol The most important quality you need to be a good day care provider is the LOVE of children. Lots of patience helps too. lololol Try it with one or two and you will be surprised how much you will love it!!! No empty nest syndrome in my house, there is always a new baby on the horizon.

Sounds real nice Bella.

Ginny ~ I have not seen the "Things That Aren't There Anymore" video. Is that the actual title I would ask for ? Was it on PBS ? Sounds interesting.

My brother died nearly eleven years ago, I miss him terribly. He was my "big" brother when our daddy died even though he was only two years older. I get teary eyed thinking about him.

I don't believe all novels need to have a positive ending in order to be called good books. Some authors leave us hanging with a question mark at the end, some give a very positive ending and other authors choose the endings to be less than happily ever after. Life itself comes in different packages for different people. Even if Candida's life ended with unsettled issues there are still lessons we can learn from her life. Also, if we feel Candida's life wasn't fulfilling, it might have been fulfilling to her. We are all made differently, with different personalities. I also think if her life after Andrew was inward and faulty does that mean her whole life lacked purpose? She had to be, in some ways, a good mother. She didn't leave her children. It's easier to find the bad in the person than it is to find the good.

Emmabarb, I loved what you brought up about the Christmas tree, the Environmentalist idea. I would have never thought of it.

Ginny, I thought the discussion had ended. I am so sorry. I thought you had left us and flown off to Italy. Anyway, I loved this discussion. That was not a surprise. All of your discussions are great. You give all of yourself for our enjoyment and enrichment. All of us love you. It's impossible to not love you. Thank you for being you. And I know the discussion is still going. People are not all flawed. People are not completely perfect. Humans are a mixed bag.

"There is NO right or wrong, it is what each person sees. That is why some of us can accept it for what it is and be okay."

Yes, I do think people could still enjoy this book a hundred years from now. Margaret Drabble's writing is not formulaic. Her writing leaves you thinking, thinking and thinking.......

I thought this discussion was over, too, HATS! Perhaps this book will be around in a hundred years. The topic has been an ongoing one for eons. My hope is that women of the future, when they're dumped like that Christmas tree because they're no longer green and have lost their sparkle and lustre . . . My hope is that they'll be better equipped to support themselves. Work is a great healer, I find.

Mal

I'm off to the doctor this morning, my primary care physician, for no other reason than it's time to go, and I need refills for prescriptions. I woke up a lot earlier than I did last week, so will be on time for the Shared Ride bus. I have Tina Brown's book about Diana to take with me and read during the 2 hour wait for the ride home. It's not a good travelling book. It's a big hardback -- 542 pages including notes.

A week from today is my 79th birthday, whoopee! Maybe I'll take the Shared Ride bus on a pleasure jaunt; go to the Crossings, a large discount mall with lots of good shops and sidewalks for my wheelchair transportation. There's a little French-Bistro-type lunchroom. When my daughter was here from NC in May, we had great panini there. This is the type of thing all alone women do when they don't have six others to share their journey. Sounds like fun, doesn't it?

Mal

Mal,

I hope you have a good day. I agree work is a great healer. I worked for many, many years while my children were growing up. I feel sorry for women in bad relationships.

Oh me.. messages and more messages. I too thought Ginny was off to whereever this year and that we were done. I dont think this is a 100 year book.. In the end she does not touch me deep in the heart. I found that I simply did not care about Candida in the end. Too much whining and distancing from the world. In the world of women who write about women, I would say that Margaret Atwood ( an admitted favorite of mine) will be the stayer.. Drabble just loves to do mildly depressed irritating characters. I love Atwoods women.. They may be pushed down and punished and generally go through a lot, in the end, they hold to their own and fight.

hahah looks like the discussion itself is having a Dying Fall, huh? No a June discussion really should run the month of June before it's pulled.

And there's so much in this last section I really wanted to talk about.

"Sexuality is omni-present these days."

Well it sure is in her writing, I have never seen anybody so obsessed with sex. Is it me? But THIS one:

Oh, Barbara, thank you for your post. If there was no Italian journey, where does that leave the rest of the book? Was there no health club? Were there no Julia, Anais and the others? I don't mean to rely too heavily on the interviews, but in them there was no indication from the author that the woman she wrote about was fantasizing a whole life from the confines of one little room.

This was my first online discussion and was not entirely what i expected. For one thing, it was a lot more lively. I feel like I've learned a lot and while I've read nothing that persuaded me to change my initial impression of the book, I enjoyed being exposed to other points of view. Thanks to all.

(page 278) "And women are supposed to go on looking sexy when they are into their sixties. That's all very well for people like Julia, who like that kind of thing, but it's not very good for the rest of us, is it? For some of us, it means nothing but a sense of unending failure and everlasting exclusion."

I would like to try my hand at this one. I think it totally depends on the person. There is no right or wrong. It is important to do what makes you feel happy.If you are fixing yourself up because you are afraid your husband will leave if you don't, then that is sad. But if you are doing it because it makes you feel good, why not.

Personally I will go to some extent to keeping myself looking young and sexy but I will not do others. For example, I dye my hair, watch my weight, exercise, have manicures and pedicures and a weekly massage, but I will not do any plastic surgery. That is where I draw the line.

Does the work I do on myself make me look sexy...who knows? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The people I care about think I look fabulous...

Oh I am 63 so that is relatively young on the scale of seniors. I think sexy is also being sensual. Sexy is responding to a man and knowing how to make him respond. Sexy is enjoying being touched and allowing the man to know he gives you pleasure. It is not necessarily body beautiful(although that helps) but more it is spiritual and emotional beauty that makes a woman sexy. It is being in the moment with a man (or woman for that matter) and allowing yourself to relax into another person. You can't tell how sexy someone is by looking at them...although how they look is often what creates the initial attraction. But what keeps it going...that is something else altogether.

Candida did not take pleasure in her sexual relationship with Andrew. Either he did not know how to give her pleasure or she was shut down or both. So she views looking sexy as a waste of time. I understand. Of course, I am also not sure there was an Andrew at all. I do know this is a woman who is alone. How and why that happened is still a mystery.

hahaa " I found that I simply did not care about Candida in the end. Too much whining and distancing from the world."

Yes me too.

I keep thinking of Christine's T. S. Eliot's Portrait of a "Lady," remember all the ladylike references at the beginning of the book? That sure does ring true but as I've said, Drabble has introduced one too many references to relate to; the result is what she said Ibsen's Peer Gynt was: ill constructed: too many…what's that the Emperor said about Mozart's opera? Too many notes.

EmmaBarb, yes, that's the title of the VHS, it was produced by a station in Philly. I think there may be several in that series, but this one was produced in Phila. When I get it back from the person I lent it to this week I can tell you more about it or send it to you if you'd like.

It has several great interviews with people living near some of the places mentioned as well as great footage, I loved it.

I am so sorry for the loss of your brother. I am an only child and so I never knew that aspect of a family.

Barbara said, "I've agreed with everybody about many things. But it preserves my sanity to know others see hope in this book and find it satisfying."

I'm trying, I'm really trying. Every time I read it I see something new. I'm going to bring today what I see, I'm afraid I am leaning more towards what Dandy is saying.

Lizabeth, I find I am in total agreement with your theories. I believe I've come around to this too:

But I do believe at the end, Candida stopped writing because the book ended. And I do believe she opened her door and went out into the world. I don't believe she stopped writing and then killed herself.

No I agree she did not kill herself. Do you all see her as married to Stuart? Lying in a ditch from another foray with too much vino? She says not. How many of US, let's try separate this fictitional character from real life, from reality, those of you who relate to her.

Would YOU go out at 11 pm into a slum of London KNOWN to be dangerous (we know that because the dangerous prisoner in Wormwood Scrubs warned her about it), and climb a fence? Something not right there? Madness? Obsession? Too much wine? She herself says Drunk and disorderly at best.

(page 306)

At BEST? The police report says drunk and disorderly at BEST?

That's not good, Folks.

Not ladylike. Not serene. Not happy. Not hopeful. None of the above.

But now Lizabeth, now to fit in "our" hahaah new theory, please tell me:

Do you think she did go to Finland?

Do you think Stuart Courage is real?

I tend to think so. I tend to think this IS part of her new life.

I tend to think that THIS was the conclusion. This WAS the end and Drabble could not stand it:

Third Person Narrator describing appearances:

How nice Candida Wilton looks, as she site there, quietly, calmly, complacently , knitting away and thinking in a humble and attentive spirit about her plans for the future. (page 300). The music swells triumphantly around her, and her spirit expands in its vastness….

Then….

She is slightly surprised by its note of overpowering joy, for surely this act is in intended to represent the fall of Troy/ Or has she somehow been transported to join unknowing Dido, as yet resplendent in Carthage?

(That makes no sense)

Can the chorus be singing so gloriously about impending death?

Candida's face is serene in the dim evening light.

(The dying of the day, maybe the dying of her own light).

And then…

Drabble can't help herself:

You can't see, from here, can you that she has a vicious and newly stitched gash along her right leg? It is nicely covered b y her nice wool skirt.

Even at the end she can't leave Candida alone. There's a possible drinking problem and a lot of disturbing things.

Even so I am leaning toward a hopeful if not positive ending. I think this bit is saying we've got several things going: the surface, and then we've got her own…. I hate to say madness but there's something else wrong here, some sort of undercurrent of strangeness. It seems hopeful that she says no more climbing no more Christmas trees, and I hope no more forays at 11 pm in a dangerous neighborhood which the police report can put down to drunk and disorderly. THAT theme, running thru the book is somewhat ominous, to me.

And I think Dandy's point is most troubling.

I have thought and thought these last two days about my interpretation of the ending: a woman slowly going mad.

Yes, this last section is full of them including the making up of Ellen, I'll try to find the place. Not Ellen's voice, but Ellen. I'll put it here and see if you all think so.

I think it's this, too. It's hopeful but she's hopelessly off.

Hahah Barbvara, this final exam only counts for 1000th of the grade, hahahaa

Bella, wow on your impressive Day Care! I can see why you are considered a school! Good for you!

Hats, I liked your idea on there are lessons we can learn from Candida's life. What would you all say they are?

Hang on for some of the more…troubling things in our last chapter, maybe you can explain them away, wash them clean as it were.

I don't believe any "chaps" came along and helped her over the fence, by the way. Do you all?

Lizabeth I agree 63 is not old. that's a wonderful post about the aging woman's appearance!

Sometimes I think I could just do a bust out on plastic surgery, go the whole nine yards, and be what? And for how long?

Have you all seen Oceans 13? Ellen Barkin or a mummy of Ellen Barkin appears in the movie, she looks good, thin, sort of....thin. Held together. I think she is older than I am. I have seen her on Broadway in a one woman show and she looked NOTHING like that. It was years ago tho, she's reinvented herself. She looks.....thin.

When is ..the quest for eternal youth over, I wonder?

Candida is not yet 60 tho she says I suppose I could pencil in my eyebrows but why bother?

As you say it's "in" the person, it does not seem to be "in" Candida?

Mal..."My hope is that women of the future, when they're dumped like that Christmas tree because they're no longer green and have lost their sparkle and lustre . . . My hope is that they'll be better equipped to support themselves."

I so agree with you about women need to be better equipped to support themselves. I have a sister in law on my husband's side that allowed her husband to have all financial control and when he decided to dump all her inheritance into a secret bank account and leave her for that new "Sparkling Christmas tree years younger" she was devastated. He got the house like Andrew and she ended up in the two room, pull down bed out of the wall apartment, like Candida. She found herself needing to get a job with so little skills for being a stay at home Mom rather use her teaching degree because he preferred her at home. I am a huge advocate for women's rights and talk to my daughter, daughter in laws, and other women on keeping some of their independence for the sake of never losing their own identity regardless if you are married for 36 years like me or less.

"A week from today is my 79th birthday, whoopee! Maybe I'll take the Shared Ride bus on a pleasure jaunt;"

HAPPY EARLY BIRTHDAY to you Mal, 79 years young and look at YOU! You go on that pleasure jaunt for your birthday, sounds like a wonderful idea!

Hats..."Some authors leave us hanging with a question mark at the end, some give a very positive ending and other authors choose the endings to be less than happily ever after."

Hats, that is the perfect point. I was thinking the other day after more pondering on this book and thought how many movies have we sat throw only to have the end leave us feeling like this book did. I so remember one particular movie we were watching called the Beach House with Sandra Bullock and Keena Reeves that kept switching from like past, present and future. I sat through it feeling like this book made me feel. At the end I said,"What???" And my friend said, "It's only a movie Marie." I laughed so hard I thought I was going to pee my pants......and at our age NO depends yet. He brought it all back to the reality that every movie does not have a happy ending or a tied up ending so you can walk away feeling good. sad or indifferent, some leave you with a confused question mark.

EmmaBarb..."My brother died nearly eleven years ago, I miss him terribly. He was my "big" brother when our daddy died even though he was only two years older."

Emma, I too have a big brother two years older than me and my Daddy died when I was two years old so my brother has forever been my protector. I can only imagine your sadness without yours. My mother passed away ten years ago and the feeling of sadness has subsided but will never leave me. We have to feel the blessing of having such great people in our lives for the time we get. They remain with us in our hearts and memories forever!

The Dying Fall: Madness, Introspection, Inebriation or Simply Fabrication?

Here are some things which trouble me and which do not, to me, show change in the last chapter. If the Sibyl was the climax, these things should be different. They are, in fact, more troubling, which leads me to think the Christmas tree was her wake up call, her police report of drunk and disorderly and her desire to stop that behavior. She's hopeful (stretch out your hand) and I hope she does not ruin the next phase.

Last Chapter : Part Four: A Dying Fall:

In her own words: Troubling signs in this last "hopeful" section:

Page 275: I can't get out. I try , but I can't escape…I had thought I could get out, but I don't think I can. I had thought 120,000 from Northam Provident would release me, but it can't.

Of course I won't end up in the canal. Did you believe, did I believe, even for a moment that I might? I am condemned to life, to wearing out my life. All I can produce from my gaping mouth is a little tiny cry.

I haven't the courage. I cannot rise to the tragic mode (Barbara was right!).

All I know is that she (a suicide) was braver than I am (page 276).

Happiness is not for me. (page 281).

Let's face it, whatever I did was wrong. (page 282)

On Valeria: "I was beginning to think I might have invented her. " (page 284). I think you have, too.

Actually that's not quite how he talks. Yet again I seem, relentlessly, inexplicably, to have given the other person my own syntax and vocabulary. Though I don't talk quite like that, either do I? But that's the gist of what he said. I think I've got more of the content right. (page 293).

She's made up Stuart too.

And "then there's the Health Club, and the Yoga class and the Health Club. Candida seems to have joined a Yoga class, though she is not sure how this happened." (page 300). And she's so busy with all her new activities.

YET when she inquires about Jenny at the Health Club what do we find out? I knew "Jenny" was in there for a reason. There IS construction in this book, Guys.

Wilton, C attended twice for instruction two years ago. . (page 302).

Those Health Clubs mark your going out and your coming in and what you did every time. She's been TWICE, two years ago to her Health Club.

She's making all of this up. And the kicker:

She (Ellen) doesn't acknowledge that I realize that she doesn’t really want me to go (to Finland). I can read the subtext. I'm not a fool. And I don't like her calling my style and attitudes "faux-naif." I think that's offensive. Though she's right of course, about the Ladbroke Grove rat. I only saw it twice. It's not really my friend. It probably wasn't the same rat. (page 281).

Friends, I don't know where the faux naïf remark is, but ELLEN, the 'real" Ellen never said she was not friends with a Ladbroke Grove rat!!! ?????

The "made up" Ellen, whom Candida admits was herself writing AS Ellen did?

These two last "slips" are very important.

I'm changing my mind for the last time. Lizabeth I don't think she went to Finland and I don't think there is an Ellen. I think this, slipped in here like this, in what should be the ending, and you can see it's carefully constructed, tho the references, I repeat, got away from her, indicates that there IS no Ellen and she's made the entire thing, the ENTIRE thing up.

After two times discussing this book, several years apart, for one month each, with the best and the brightest people you could ever hope to talk to, I think she made the entire thing up. So I'm not angry at Drabble any more, it's clear she did try to construct something. I probably will not throw the book. Nor am I angry at Candida, who is clearly mad and I do need to thank each of you for all of your wonderful insights and ideas.

So, now what DO you think about women over 50, should they try to look 30?

What do you think about this or anything else in the entire book? The fat lady has sung. It's time for final thoughts.

Ginny.... "The fat lady has sung."

I am so glad you are hearing the beat to the tunes we were hearing. It is funny because I think how at my son's wedding reception the dance floor was full of people of all ages and the song blasting out of the speakers was the same song but yet every person was dancing a different step to the music. That is how I see each of us getting to the place we could finally accept whatever we chose to accept for the ending. I am so happy YOU are dancing with us!!!

"she's made the entire thing, the ENTIRE thing up." (Ginny)

Absolutely it is all FABRICATED!!! There is NO other conclusion. She sat at the laptop and away she went, like I said I was not sure if I believed she was even married, had children or got divorced. I am still on the fence about that. I have a tendency to say NO, because Margaret Drabble said its about a women confronting underlying fears of growing older. But then again, Margaret describes Candida, unlike herself, as being lonely, on bad terms with her family and having no friends. So.....if she had NO friends and Candida created herself having friends, did she have the divorced family? TEEE HEEE HEEE...I can't believe I am going here......"

I think a lady can look nice at our age without trying to look like she's thirty. That's going too far. I love pretty shoes and clothes and jewelry. I don't want to look like a teenager. Yesterday I went out. I had on those those three quarter pants. We use to call those pants pedal pushers. I had on a blue tiny flowered blouse and white sandals. I started to take back the white sandals for a black pair. The white pair look pretty nice. If I go out, I wear a ponytail with a pretty barette. I love barettes. I also love tiny earrings. I had on a pair a friend made for me.

I want to look attractivefor my age.

It's hard to believe the whole story was made up by Candida. Why do I find that so hard to accept? Did she suddenly become an author? If not, If she believed what she was writing was true, then, she had become mad. Well, did she suddenly become a very creative writer with a "real" life? or, did she believe that she had gone to Italy with friends, met two men in Finland? Did Ellen live in Finland? Where did she lose the thread of truth? Was there an Andrew? Were their children from the marriage? Was the drowning a made up story??

Where does the truth begin and where does it dwindle away???

What was Margaret Drabble's motivation? I have only questions, no answers.

I feel...finally!...that I am not out on that limb again...all alone again. Ginny, your last post was a somersault/cartwheel happy one to read.

But I can't dither anymore about Drabble.

After three days of walking around with this book "talking at me" in my mind, I have convinced myself that my initial conclusion, a woman slowly going mad, is one that I can be okay about. Not an exclamation point. Not a comma. A period mark.

I am bringing to closure a few thoughts:

1.) No, I don't believe this novel will be in print and read 100 years from now. It's a book about one woman's issues vs. a novel of epic impact or a universal appeal.

Since I am okay with my first reactions:

2.) I don't think she went to Finland.

3.) I don't think Stuart Courage is real.

With all due respect, Ginny, I need to step away from this discussion. Candida may be having difficulty moving forward, but I want to. Too troubling a character to dwell on any longer. I have appreciated being included in this novel discussion group and greatly benefited from the group's research and thoughts. It was a reading experience that was...well...just

Dandy

Dandy-lion....I so agree with you. Enough is enough and like I said its like the mouse running around the proverbial wheel. Sometimes even though the end is not clear and the date is still far off we need to say its too much.

I'm with Dandy: I'm ready to move on. It was a wonderful trip, but I'm glad it's over. On to the next discussion!

"Absolutely it is all FABRICATED!!! There is NO other conclusion. She sat at the laptop and away she went, like I said I was not sure if I believed she was even married, had children or got divorced."

I can't let go yet. What is the point of the novel? To help us accept aging???? If that was the purpose, I didn't come away with that purpose. I am lost for the novel's purpose. I am thinking it was written by Margaret Drabble just for entertainment.

Hats...........GOOD for YOU!!!! I am 54 soon to be 55 and I love the beautiful styles out, I am wearing them and feeling and looking good. YOU go girl!!!! As for Candida and Margaret they will remain a question mark, but I am with Dandy I am exhausted with trying to come up with a concrete answer when there is NONE. You swing that ponytail and feel FREE at 50!

After reading Ginny and Bellamarie's posts, I need to read the whole book again. This is just amazing.

Bellamarie, I am not fifty. That age went by long ago. I am fifty six. Dandy is right. It's time to let go. My ponytail doesn't swing but it is a ponytail.

Hats..........NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Don't do it!!!!! I am done too!!!!!!! Everybody walk away, turn off your computer, as the Italians say...."Fo git about it!!!" Go play some solitaire. Teeee heeeee heeeeeee

Hats It's a saying, Free at 50. Meaning any 50. Okay so your ponytail don't swing that was just a saying too.lolololol I meant just be who you are and have fun with it!!!!

Bellamarie, I should know how to play Solitaire at my age. So, I am going to find a site and learn how to play today, right now, in a minute. That's my goal for today.

GOOD FOR YOU!!! And don't let Candida's guilt even creep in once you are hooked at playing.

There are so many sites. I don't know which one to pick. I need a good beginners site. I will have to look for awhile. I have to go do something else right now.

I just found out every computer has the game, Solitaire. I have the game. Now all I have to do is play. I can see where the addiction comes in.

Welcome to my world Hats!

Just one correction...The movie I was speaking of is The Lake House.If you want a movie to confuse you as much as this book go rent it. I for one would highly recommend "Wild Hogs" its more our age group and ....they go on a wild adventuresome ride. It's hilarious and just the medicine the doctor would order after a book like this.

Fling the dang thing, Or NOT...Teeee heeeee heeeee:)

I have to crack up at how many times people have said one thing then changed it.........and yet they are annoyed with Candida for the same thing.

As the saying goes. "It's a woman's perogative to change her mind."

I'm going to try once more...I'm new at this message posting and I kept hitting the return key instead of the tab. I will definitely not fling the book. I loved it and will read more of her work. I can't say the same for her sister A.S. Byatt...I found her very difficult to understand. A writer once pointed out that the end of the book is really only the end of a chapter. That story goes on...fictitious of not. I enjoy thinking and wondering about the choices Candida will make. Submitting to me, meant not submitting to death but submitting to life. She now knows that life contains many joys, friendships with other women and men, friendship with her daughter Ellen, love and grandchildren. I will be 65 in October and find life to be more interesting every day. (Now that I'm retired). The only real disappointment I have with the book is her lying about going to the Sybil. Why did she do that. Now I must go back and reread the last section so that this last week of discussion doesn't lose me.

Ginny, "So, now what DO you think about women over 60, should they try to look 30?"

I think age should never limit a woman's dress, talk or style. We should act as young as we feel, dress which ever way makes us feel good about our self and speak with dignity at all ages. (and God forbid do NOT embarrass yourself or your grown kids or pre teen grand daughter..lolol) I wear all the latest fashions and my daughter (34) my daughter in laws (28 & 25) compliment me and love that I am not acting, dressing and speaking old. I enjoy all the reality shows they hooked me on especially my very favorite BIG BROTHER, which begins next week, I just got a new haircut and oh my goodness I saw on the internet today Katie Holmes has the same one as ME!!!! lololol The hairdresser did mine June 1st without my permission...she said I know just the cut for YOU! At first I was shocked and a bit upset. NOW.....I love it!!! Jayme the hairdresser is 23 yrs old. lololol What a treat for ME!!

I am so happy I have aged with wisdom, I would not want to go back to those struggling insecure years of my 20's for nothing, my 30's were the beginning of having NO more babies and my 40's was my awakening with NO kids living in my home anymore. MY 50's are all FREE feeling. Can't wait to see what the 60's bring.

I think a woman can be sexy in her sweats, sweatshirt and tangled hair, at least I have come to believe my husband and many other men's opinions on this. lolol

Websters dictionary: Main Entry: sen·su·al Pronunciation: 'sen(t)-sh(&-)w&l, -sh&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin sensualis, from Latin sensus sense 1 : relating to or consisting in the gratification of the senses or the indulgence of appetite : FLESHLY 2 : SENSORY 1 3 a : devoted to or preoccupied with the senses or appetites b : VOLUPTUOUS c : deficient in moral, spiritual, or intellectual interests : WORLDLY; especially : IRRELIGIOUS

I see the adjective sensual and think we can be and feel that way at any age.

Now as Joan Rivers would say..........."Can we talk about SEX?" lol

Olle close your eyes........lolol

We all know after menopause the act of sex diminishes. Yes, there are ways and medications to help but ultimately, we are faced with physiology and biology....It Aint happening as often and it Aint as comfortable as it used to be. Another fear of growing old I suppose Drabble was trying to touch on. lololol So in the end we have to make the best of Life's cycle. We all need affirmation female/male that our loved one still can see us as sexy, sensual and can enjoy sex to the degree of possibility at our age. That is the key to a loving, lasting relationship. So ladies all the creams in the world no matter where you place it on your body will NOT stop the aging process. The expense of having it lifted, taken off or wrinkle free is only going to last so long.

SMOKE and MIRRORS are all those commercials, as I remember an interview Cindy Crawford said I can only wish I looked as good as those magazines make me look. lolol

Finland? Stuart Courage? No way...Stuart last name COURAGE. Cute choice.

I don't see Candida going mad though. I think she is alone (I think I am saying this too often and beginning to bore myself) and exploring her own inner thoughts. Some might be real; some might be imagined. Who knows? That is beside the point. The point is (for me) that at the end of the book she gets up and meets the world.Done.Done. Done.

Now as the interesting subtext chat. I hope I am not being too open or blunt here. But...what is this stuff about menopause slowing down the sex drive and discomfort and all that that. After menopause, there is no more menustration. Now that slows down sex drive every month. Besides that...well, things should get better and better. No children in the house. No menustration (said that before) No fear of pregnancy.

I guess it depends on the individual and what she does with her life. But I think what I am objecting to are generalizations, even if they are based on biology and etc. ..generalizations that become for too many women self-fulfilling prophecies.

I just want to share that I think the door stays open for a long time if you have a partner who is interested(interesting). I hope this post has not offended anyone. If so, my apologies.

Lizabeth..."Now as the interesting subtext chat. I hope I am not being too open or blunt here. What here, too blunt. lol But...what is this stuff about menopause slowing down the sex drive and discomfort and all that that. OOOppps didn't mean to give away anything here. Thought we all here were past menapause and believing in the Easter bunny. lolol After menopause, there is no more menustration. Now that slows down sex drive every month. I was not aware of that. Besides that...well, things should get better and better. No children in the house. No menustration (said that before) No fear of pregnancy. Aint God a hoot? lolol In a perfect world that should be the way it would work. lolol

"I guess it depends on the individual and what she does with her life. But I think what I am objecting to are generalizations, even if they are based on biology and etc. ..generalizations that become for too many women self-fulfilling prophecies. No generalizations, just medical facts, check out all the medical journals. But they are working on it so maybe by the time you get to this point it will be perfected. lolol

I just want to share that I think the door stays open for a long time if you have a partner who is interested(interesting). The door NEVER closes, and I thank God I have the husband I do who is NOT only interested but interesting!!!! Let's chat again when you get there Lizabeth. lolol

I am toying with you Lizabeth....lolololol I told you all early on, I have this sick sense of humor. I don't book them week end getaways with jacuzzi suites for NOTHING!!!!

Ok ladies and Olle if you are still out there. I am joining Senior Net Anonymous today. I have my first meeting at 5:00. I am asking for a sponsor to call immediately. Every time I dare to open this site my computer is set to trip off an alarm that will bring the swat team in to take me to the rescue crisis center.

This is not a joke, if Candida thought her days of playing solitaire were bad, she don't hold a candle to my wanting to check out the latest posts. I hereby give myself the permission to remove this site from my favorites and to keep it out until I decide I am ready to join yet another book discussion, which will not take place until my support group tells me I am recovered. I know it is a 12 step program and I know they say you must first get a plant and see if it lives before attempting to have the strength to return to normal habits. I will get that plant and pray it does not die or go far off into the Cumean cave.

In other words I shall NOT return until we are discussing another book, in the fall. The topic here is getting way tooooooooooo off The Seven Sisters. lololol Have a great summer.....in 10 seconds my computer is going to disintegrate and I am on to my next mission impossible.

But BellaMarie...I am there. I am 63 and went through menopause about 12 years ago. My husband is 84. I am basing this on my reality..Now isn't that a hoot! So once again, not everything in those medical texts is true for everyone...which was my point,

Candida's experience is Candida's. Julia is the other side of the coin perhaps. But I think this coin might have more than two sides...

Wow, hormones everywhere, and only 7:30 in the morning. I almost choked on my coffee and Weetbix!

I've been following along with this discussion and before it finishes I really wanted to ask something that's been bugging me about this book. Haha, along with a million other dead ends and blind alleys. What was the significance of all this talk of cards? First the solitaire, then all the comments like "I have played my last card game" just prior to leaving on the trip. Sally, she says, is a "wild card", on page 169 she says "will she play the game?" What game? Is this book all a game, a throw of a dice, or a fall of a card?

Valeria dreams of Bridge games past and "the endlessly fascinating cut of the cards" and "she smiles to herself". Mysterious. "Bridge is an amusing game, and these women would be right to add it to their repertoire. One can never have too many holds on happiness." Happiness mmmh? "Card games are the proper reward of the veteran of old campaigns. Lord Filey had played a tight hand". Something is teasing at my mind, but I just can't seem to grasp it!!

Candida also says she was brought up to think card games were wicked, and somewhere that I can't find again, she says that Andrew never approved of her playing cards. The Solitaire she plays seems like some shameful, hidden secret, the way she describes it.

Is the trip one last, go for broke game, or go at life or something, and her travelling companions are the rest of her hand? Is the end dictated by her hand? No, I've totally confused myself now.The red wine last night probably, but there is a card thingamajig going on in this book!!

Would you believe this one.?..

It has been common practice to teach new SeniorNet students on the computer the Solitaire game to help their dragging and mouse skills.

One of my students dropped out of the classes because she thought that card games were against her religion..

Of course we refunded her fees.

So you see there are people today who believe card games are sinful, whether they be the real thing or on the computer.!!.

I play Spider Solitaire and many of the Hoyle games when I've nothing better to do.

Now I've a bigger problem...my Palm pilot died and the CD player on my computer is stuck..

Modern technology.. aint it a hoot.

Colkots

There are many novels--and films--about dumped women. Drabble says it could've been she and wishes to explore this experience in a novel. She can't allow it to be the standard read where the handsome stranger falls into the character's arms at the local museum--not realistic. She decides to tell the story from various points of view, one (fake Ellen's) self-critical, and to be wryly funny and self-critical throughout.

Drabble creates Candida, a highly intellectual, sometime French teacher at her husband's school, alienated from her children and sexually unsatisfied. While she deplores the constant sexual din in society, she seeks a "lover."

She calls the book "The Seven Sisters" because her friends, all in some way alone--one is married to gay man--help her reinvent her life.

For Ginny: Concerned about Jenny, Candida goes to the health club where "it's not like school, where they chased you and bullied you . . ." Things there, like the "spinner" and mirror, (including record-keeping) are breaking down. (pp. 302-303)

Like much of the book, chapter Three, her take on the worst that Ellen, her closest daughter, might think of her is a humorous look at herself--a woman who will in fact go on living a life. She admits to writing as a "faux naif"--someone totally innocent and without resources, when in fact, her adaptive and social skills are considerable.

The description of herself as a sloppy drunk is one of many jokes. Don't we all make such self-deprecating jests?

As she regains the self she was before being diminished by Andrew, she gets a stylish haircut, the semi-long, straight, smooth cut described twice a year on our Oprah show. Sophisticated, young! Candida continues to reach out in numerous ways, taking chances (even going out at night in edgy neighborhoods, as women often do in cities) and so on.

Will Candida have Courage? (Pun intended) Or find something better? Or very little? Like ours, her life is still in progress. As Drabble revealed in her interview (sorry, text-bound new critics) which I've yet to read, Candida's's still "learning."

So funny--I just saw a similar story in Diane Keaton's "Because I Said So." The character left her Andrew-like (great charm, little sex) husband early on and lost out on life while raising THREE DAUGHTERS, one she's close to but with reservations. At sixty, she says her life is over. She continues this same Candida-like comical complaining throughout. Bu this being a movie, a man falls into her arms (literally)--the obligatory Deus et Machina miracle arrives in the last third. The last scene is embarrassing, gratuitously raunchy, especially since we've seen Keaton making out with Stephen Collins several times already.

Ignore the reviews. Rent it--It's actually fair to older women! I wouldn't be surprised if "The Seven Sisters" inspired this Hollywood version. No royalties, though.

The Peppered Moth is worth reading. I love the old woman who is the main character. I have known women like her.

Carolyn

Here is my take on the book. I think Candida was divorced. I think she had three daughters. She did go to Finland. The impressions she gave us of her friends particularly Sally were skewed by the depressive period she was going through. Everything seemed to be black to her in the first two sections of the book. Margaret Drabble has taken one character and given her all the negative characteristics of a woman battling to adjust to a single life and aging. I think its as simple as that. Candida is simply "everywoman".

Carolyn

Ginny ~ thank you. I Googled and found lots of videos with that same title. I still have a VHS player so let me know and we'll arrange something.
I had to grow up without a father so my brother was sort of a father-image to me. I have a sister who was adopted to a family who forbid us to contact her. It was only in recent years since her adopted parents have both died that we sort of keep of touch. My sister and I have so little in common the bonding is just not there. Maybe it will happen before one of us is gone.

I think Candida's journal and writings were the ramblings of a lonely person and one who had never been on her own.

Do we have any people here from ? Southern Yorkshire where all that flooding is ? They were telling on TV tonight how they were fearful the dam would break. Please be safe !

Some of my friends (female) have said they're tired of all the wrinkles they have in their face and they're going to find a plastic surgeon. This one lady is ten years younger than I am and I think another is about my age. There is nothing I can do about wrinkles, it's part of aging and I've no interest in plastic surgery or whatever.
This lady on the phone today made my day. I was ordering a prescription and she wanted to know if it was for my mom. Ha, I said look at my birthdate...it's for me. She said I had such a young voice

BellaMarie726 ~ I hope you and your big brother remain good friends. First I lost my brother, then the next year my mother died. I can't get over the fact I was unable to be with my brother in Florida when he died. My mother was very ill and needed me. Actually she forbid me to go, to leave her. I wish I'd never listened to her and could have maybe gotten to the hospital before he passed away.

I'm reading Professor Simon Schama's book "The Power of Art". It's a TV series on PBS right now. Tonight's episode was Caravaggio.
Then I look forward to Susan Vreeland's book discussion Renoir's painting "The Luncheon Boating Party". See you there !

hahaha This morning on NPR they were talking about Tony Blair's Longest Goodbye and perhaps we are equaling that here.

I do have several letters asking that the discussion be kept open so that some folks can pen their last impressions, so those of you moving on, thank you very much for your super insights, and I'll continue to talk to those who drop by. I kind of like this situation actually, it's different for us. (Usually we end in a big bang with lots of appreciative thoughts all around and then it's done with lots of huzzahs), but this time…in keeping with her ending (Dandy you are really TOO much haahhaha) this time we'll be different!! We may have to end with an open sentence. hahaaa

So thank you ALL for the nice thoughts, thank you Hats, right back at you.

BellaMarie, Olle has sent this translation of your poem. This is another first for us in the Books. I think our new readers have added immeasurably to our discussion here and I hope that each of you have enjoyed the experience and will join us in the next several selections: Digging to America, Luncheon at the Boating Party, The Scarlet Pimpernel and The Road are all coming up in the next months. Just click on the underlined Books & Literature link you see in the links at the top and the bottom of the pages here to see them all.

Here's Bella Marie's poem in Swedish:

Oh, vilka platser jag kan resa till när
jag låter mitt sinne vandra...
Slott, ängder, Irländska böljande kullar,
Skepp i hamn, herdar, handelsbodar
och fabriker.
Liggande på en grönskande kulle,
stillhet, jag grubblar.

Oh, vilka platser jag kan resa till när
jag låter mitt sinne vandra...

Ridande just bakom min vite riddare I morgondiset,
Vilande på en segelbåt utan mål,
svävande på blå pudrade moln,
Dansande på en drottnings bal, ett
teparty i en blomsterträdgård.

Oh, vilka platser jag kan resa till när
jag låter mitt sinne vandra…
Fridfullt och lugnt är mitt sinne,
bedjande på St. Petersplatsen,
Lyssna till Sancta Lucia i en gondol,
söderns hav i mitt hår,
Skidande ned för Sveriges branter,
eller vilande på Cape Cod.

Oh, vilka platser jag kan resa till när
jag låter mitt sinne vandra…
Sittande i min gungstol, babyn som
sover i mitt knä,
Länder, städer, byars överflöd, i mitt
huvud en karta.
Babyn rör sig, åter hemma skall jag
åter¬vända, till nästa gång
babyn vilar.

A. Marie Reinhart

Thank you, Olle, we look forward to your and Maggie's and several other people's thoughts here at the end and, oh, there's JAN!!

More….

Ssthor, your post there got lost in the flurry of posts but thank you for this: This was my first online discussion and was not entirely what i expected. For one thing, it was a lot more lively. I feel like I've learned a lot and while I've read nothing that persuaded me to change my initial impression of the book, I enjoyed being exposed to other points of view. Thanks to all.

I think that sums up my own thoughts, also. Thank YOU, I hope you'll join us in another hahah on the SeniorNet Anonymous.

Lizabeth I really enjoyed your posts and viewpoints on the aging woman and that at the end Candida gets up and meets the world. I liked your several sided coin.

Malryn, like BellaMarie I liked your remark about women handling what happens if they are dumped like the Christmas tree. I am enjoying Tina Brown's book, but I'll say so in the Nook.

BellaMarie, thank you for your creative thoughts and contributions, much appreciated. Ever the provocateur, tho right to the end hahahaa

I have to crack up at how many times people have said one thing then changed it.........and yet they are annoyed with Candida for the same thing. As the saying goes. "It's a woman's perogative to change her mind."

It's normal I think when the reader is trying to figure out the cryptic clueless ill constructed mélange that Drabble has done, throwing out hints like a berserk Sibyl like sprinkler, to change your mind. Many times. Writing about your own life, however, as "Candida" (who knows) supposedly did, one hopes, would be a little more straightforward. At any rate, it's been a good ride, that's what book clubs do, and we've done it splendidly. I'm going to link this discussion to the Reader's Guide of the other as "Another View: And Now for Something Completely Different"

I liked your Katie Holmes haircut (it's very attractive in the photos I've seen of her) and I agree that this is the best time. That was the theme of the GE Carousel of Progress at the NY World's Fair and in Disney World for years. I loved that thing and can sing, "Now is the time, now is the best time, now is the best time of your life" but I hear they've redone it and taken the song away! Say not so!!

I agree

Christine, thank you for your wonderful insights and laser like parsing!

Hats, a good question Where does the truth begin and where does it dwindle away??? And of course we'll never know. I have enjoyed exploring it with everybody tho.

Maggie, good point! the story goes on...fictitious or not. I enjoy thinking and wondering about the choices Candida will make. Submitting to me, meant not submitting to death but submitting to life. I like that! I haven't read any Byatt but if she's harder to understand than her sister, I'll have to pass.

I wonder if there will be a sequel.

Would you all read it?

Jan I am so glad to see you here, good for you on the card subtext

Is the trip one last, go for broke game, or go at life or something, and her travelling companions are the rest of her hand? Is the end dictated by her hand? No, I've totally confused myself now. The red wine last night probably, but there is a card thingamajig going on in this book!!

Yes and one on disabilities particularly speaking. There is a LOT on tongues, snakes, speaking in tongues, speaking disablities, fear of phones, etc., etc. etc.

Book and sub themes got away from Mrs. Drabble, that's my opinion.

Colkots, yes lots of people think card games are sinful.

Barbara, good points on the humor, we did not touch on the irony in the thing and it's full of it. Yes I think we all do self deprecating humor but I don't about being drunk as I don't drink. Loved this: Will Candida have Courage? (Pun intended) Or find something better? hahahaa

We should ask you all to write a review, I like this : She decides to tell the story from various points of view, one (fake Ellen's) self-critical, and to be wryly funny and self-critical throughout.

I think she HAS been funny, perhaps throughout and I missed that too, but it's an excellent point.

Carolyn, thank you for your thoughts that Candida is "everywoman" warts and insecurities and all.

Emma, you have a young spirit on SeniorNet, too. I've not gotten the tape back but I know you would enjoy it, Hats, you probably would too. I did.

To me the "old days" in Phila were happy but I can see if the "old days" like Candida had (didn't you think Martha's remark to her in Finland was particularly hateful? I don't think she said that nor was there, but I've said that) were not happy, they would be hard to get over.

Well

Dandy thank you for your viewpoint. I agree with everything you said. I loved this:

It was a reading experience that was...well...just

Dandy

THERE is an epitaph!!!

Love it!

Thank you all. Hope to see you in our upcoming discussions and general discussion boards!

Ginny - sorry I've been absent so long. I'm working on a major project and by the time I finish each day I'm too mentally drained to think- let alone make sense of this Drabble dribble. Then of course, real life intervenes as well.

This is the first Drabble book I've read and I'm not sure that I'll read another even though I enjoyed some of the writing in this one. To paraphrase another poster - I'm not entirely stupid, I still have all my wits about me, and I have a nodding aquaintance with most of the literary allusions Drabble uses, though I have not been to Cumae,or Tunis either, for that matter, but in the end I found much of the book too contrived, the allusions so numerous as to become a surfeit.

The final section was a let down. Other writers can leave an open ended finish and leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusion - Writing their own ending as one poster suggested we do. and this can be very satisfying too - not so with Drabble's Seven Sisters. It doesn't seem to be worth the effort.

I agree that Candida's diary is primarily a fabrication from start to finish. There is only one narrator though more than one voice. The multiple voices leads me back to thinking about Candida as having multiple personalities - I seem to recall mention of her 'former self' and her 'other self' somewhere along the line. This line of thought was reinforced in me by the way the 'Ellen' voice was refuted by the Candida voice of 'A Dying Fall'

Nevertheless Candida, the diarist, must have had a starting point. Maybe this was Andrew and the divorce, maybe there were children,friends, swimming club, Virgil group - maybe not. But from her starting point Candida invents her diary. She is seriously depressed and needs something to hang onto. Sadly,her diary becomes her reality.

I saw no point in the whole section regarding speech therapy - why was that there other than to explain why 'Ellen' hestitated to use the phone and for Drabble to show off in yet another field of learning.

And the wealthy neurosurgeon wanting to take her into the woods...Yikes! Methinks it is a little too cold in Finland for that - especially at their age. Would not a philanderer of his ilk have had a well appointed boudoir...yes? Candida's wishful thinking perhaps? As for Stephen Courage - a future marriage implied but with strict rules about the bedroom ?- Give me strength! There is some kind of parallel there between the bedroom of the implied future Mr & Mrs Courage and that of Mr & Mrs Barclay but I'm sure I don't know what it is.

What do I think it was all about - well, Candida is obviously a woman struggling to come to terms with being alone, loneliness, aging, limited financial means, (was the windfall real or just a wish fulfillment). I think she was trying to find some inner strength to give her courage? to go on with her life. Perhaps if she wrote an imaginary life then that life might become real. I'm not quite sure that she found what she was seeking.

'Stretch forth thy hand' has many iterations. The synoptic gospels all contain the phrase as do several books from the Old Testament - though the results of 'stretching forth' are perhaps not so desirable in Job, Exodus etc.- plague, hail and so on.

One iteration that interests me in Candida's context is from the Rime of the Ancient Mariner:

Stretch forth thy hand (thus ended she)

And help a wretched maid to flee.

Hildegard von Bingen is another:

Stretch forth thy hand and lift us up To where? Heaven?

All in all I found it a disappointing book and ultimately unsatisfying.

On the credit side it gave rise to this great wide ranging discussion. I have read most of the posts here (with burning eyes) and have recognised kindred thoughts but have been just too weary to respond. I still live in hope of participating in a discussion fully - next time? Maybe.

Ginny, Sincere thanks for leading the discussion with such grace and skill. You make every one feel special, needed, wanted and worthwhile. Maybe Candida should join Seniornet.