Here we are! This is a wonderful book, and I'm sure it will be a great movie, too! Why not, with Kevin Spacey in the lead?

Anyway, is there anyone out there interested in discussing this book beginning October 15? Sometimes it's more fun to read the book first and then see how close the movie came. Copies are easily available at low cost, and also at your local library. We will be putting up a reading schedule in a few days. Hope to see your name here!

Lorrie

I'll be here too. Have read the novel several times and plan to teach it again next semester.

MARY PAGE:

Welcome, welcome! Spacey, is it? Well, if it's any comfort to you, you won't be alone. And I must remember to be especially nice to you, the lady who has supplied so many goodies to eat in the past!

MARYAL:

To you, too, a special hello!

I'm looking forward to reading this book, and will have a schedule of the discussion up shortly. Also I've got some great links to stuff about this author that we'll also be putting up. Perhaps we can be distracted temporarily from all this death and destruction!

Lorrie

God willing, I'll be here. ........elizabeth

Just got the book, Lorrie, and hope to be there.

Hi, Elizabeth, and Traude, too!

This is so good. I was hoping to hear from you, and I also have some great news! Sarah T. has very kindly agreed to be co-host with me in this discussion, and I am delighted! We are checking out some links, and want to post a schedule for reading, so will be back to you shortly!

Lorrie

Lorrie, Sarah: I'm here, too. Just reread it last summer. Can't think of anything more opposite to today's news that this retreat to one's roots. I have so often failed to "see" that house, maybe this time I will.

Hello, Mrs. Watson:

Welcome! Yes, I sort of like the picture of the house on the jacket.

Has anyone here ever spent much time in Newfoundland? The only thing I know about that province is that every summer up in Northern Wisconsin they always sent two or three stalwart lumberjacks to enter into our Lumberjack festivities, and who usually beat out the competition. I gather from the bookcover that it is definitely a maritime place. I'm off to do some reading about it now.

Lorrie

Lorrie and Sarah, I would love to join up! I have my books. It's been on the shelf a long time, and I never got a chance to read it. Newfoundland? Will we learn more about it? Places surrounded by water just seem to rejuvenate me.

HATS

I am so happy that we can discuss this book, and can't wait to see Kevin Spacey in this role. He is such a great character actor. I have the book on tape, and have listened to it twice on two long trips. I will have to review it again however. It has been one of my favorite stories in recent years. My favorite part is the last line of the book. My daughter pointed it out to me when she read the book. Those of you who haven't read it will have to wait until the end, don't peek!

BABS:

Thank you for warning us about the last chapter. Personally, I've always been very good about not peeking, etc. because I like to be surprised, and I hate people who give away the ending of a movie or a book prematurely, don't you?

HATS:

I'll bet you loved Hawaii, didn't you? Hahaha

MRS. WATSON:

So glad to know you will be among our participants. I know that many of you have already read the book, or heard the audio, and it is to these people that we ask not to jump ahead too far in our schedule, if it is not too confining for you. The reading schedule will be posted in the heading in a few days, along with some links to the author, reviews of the book, and a bit of stuff about Newfoundland.

I don't think we have to instruct any of you devoted readers here. I am so pleased with the response so far, and am actually getting a little excited about doing this book! Especially now that I know Sarah, bless her, will be joining us! It's a welcome mood from that of the past few days.

Lorrie

This is shaping up to be a great group.

Shipping News is among my top five favorite books of the last ten years. It's uplifting, engaging, a page turner, memorable - everything you want in a story. This is one of those books you just want to hug to your chest and tell others about. Can't wait to start!

Me too, Sarah!

“This place, she thought, this rock, six thousand miles of coast blind-wrapped in fog. Sunkers under wrinkled water, boats threading tickles between ice-scabbed cliffs. Tundra and barrens, a land of stunted spruce that men cut and drew away"..........

This is a passage from somewhere in the book---where exactly I don't know, but if this is a sample of the kind of writing we will be seeing, I am thrilled. Isn't it wonderful?

Lorrie

I'm straggling in here a bit late but plan to here for the discussion. Located my copy of the book, it's a start! Read it a few years ago and will be reading along with you. One of the positive things about not remembering things quite as well as we age is that rereading a book is sometimes more fun now!

PAIGE, I don't think you are the only one who will be participating who has read the book already, and that's great! After all, this book has been popular since 1994 (?) and it is only since the news of the coming movie has come out that we see a renewed interest in the book. The only thing we ask of people who have already read the book is not to give anything away as we go along, but I know I don't have to tell any of you that.

By the way, we will be posting a tentative schedule tomorrow for the reading, and when it comes up in the heading, see if it suits you all, okay?

Lorrie

Chek out this absolutely gorgeous picture of Newfoundland. I don't think it's too close, however, to the site about which we'll be reading. But it is beautiful! NEWFOUNDLAND

Lorrie

Lorrie, not to worry about my giving anything away. That was my point, not sure what I remember about the book. It will come back as I read it...I hope! Would never, ever spoil a book for anyone...hate it when that happens.

Oh Lorrie, that photo just took my breath away. Sooo beautiful. Thanks for sharing it. I love the quote beside it. "This is the place where I feel sky, land & water embrace like old friends."

I feel like I am one of the few who has not read this book yet. Can't wait.

Hi, Hats!

It is lovely, isn't it? I understand that Annie Proulx lives in both Newfoundland and Vermont, both lovely places, in my estimation.

My copy of the book just arrived, and I have to admit I haven't even cracked it open yet, but intend to do so tonight. I bought this book at a ridiculously low price at Half.com, and if anyone else needs to buy the book check out this site:

BOOKS

Lorrie

Hello all,

the library copy I have not yet returned is (too) well-read, deservedly so, of course. But I just wanted/needed my own to have and to hold (and mark when the mood strikes me). Besides, a soft cover is so much easier to balance in bed. Borders told me that a new paperback edition is coming out in November, for $7.95 I think they said.

See you soon.

TRAUDE:

What a welcome sight it is to see your name posted here! If you haven't purchased your book yet, I urge you to order one from the link that I gave in Post # 20. I'm sure you can do even better, and when I ordered mine, it took less than a week to arrive. I'll admit it's a used copy, but I like to have one that I can make notes on and underline passages, too.

Lorrie

Is it because they must 'know' incase they are asked and will feel smart when they answer with a smirk? Or is it just a case of I know I know !!!! Schoolgirl stuff. The worse thing that happened to me was in a video hire cue. I was hiring a Bruce Willis Movie when the person behind me told his friend 'He is dead' I heard him say it but thought nothing about it until i started to watch the video. What a mean thing to do. I did not know the person from a bar of soap. People are vain and selfish! Thats the real reason why people peek at the end of books!

I have a question. I've been trying to ask it for several days, but something always crashes. First my ISP went. Yesterday netscape died on me. What I want to know is, didn't E. Annie Proulx move to Montana several years ago, and write a book about living there? it was after the accordian one, I think. Or did I dream this?

Yes Lorrie, I brought home my own copy from Borders the other day when I went there to pick up a just-published, special-ordered book written by a cyber friend from the AOL Book Review and Discussion Group.

Ann Alden had mentioned it in our Library folder, and I had done that in the WREX folder, almost simultaneously, and we exchanged emails.

This may not the place to repeat the information, so please forgive me.

Mrs. Watson, I only know that in Jan of 2000 E. Annie Proulx published Close Range : Wyoming Stories . That is definitely on my holiday wishlist, and my children know just how to please me !

koro:

Yes, and it is extremely irritating to have someone give away the ending of a book before everyone is through discussing it, isn't it? Well, we will try to avoid that here.

MRS. WATSON:

Could you be thinking, as Traude suggests, about "Close Range---Wyoming Stories" by this same author? The story behind "Accordian Crimes" is a tale of the journey of an accordian from Sicily, I understand.

Whooee! Let's hope you've heard the last "crash!"

Lorrie

I NEVER (anymore) peek at the last page of a book, and I would NEVER divulge the ending of same or a movie to my worst enemy. I mentioned earlier that even though I loved this book enough to listen to it unabridged twice, I loved it more after a certain line was pointed out to me, and then I went back to hear it. Somehow the written word had more punch, and someday I want a copy of the book just so that I can highlight that line. I won't say another word about that now until we come to the end together! I will start by listening to Chapter 1 on my tape player beside my bed tonight.

And when we get to that line... you promise to let us know?

BabsNH:

I'm with Pat, will you let us know when you get to that line?

Another thing that I think will make this discussion interesting will be the knowledge that it has been made into a movie, which will be released in December, I believe. It will be fun envisioning the characters in the book along with the ones who have been cast in the movie, don't you think?

Lorrie

Lorrie and Sarah, could you decide and post something about reading vs, discussing. As I understand from many other discussions, the schedule posted is only a discussion schedule, not a reading schedule. Many posters are finished reading the book as the discussion begins and most if not all are finished shortly. If this has changed or you want to do it differently, could you post this. Just a thought....as we have new participants joining all the time, could the DLs discuss this issue and come up with a standard format of POSTING what is expected in each discussion (if each DL does it differently), if not a standard format of reading/discussing in all discussions.

betty

BETTY:

Good point there. First off, I want to make it clear that this is a discussion of the book, not a group reading. I assume that most of you have already read it, or will have by the time we officially open. The only thing we ask is that each poster stays within the scheduled designation as we go along, rather than jumping ahead with comments on future chapters.

Betty, I also believe that there's no reason we can't enjoy ourselves as we discuss this book. Where is it written in stone that we can't have fun, too? It's for this reason we keep a looser format, I suppose, but in view of all that has been going on nationally these past weeks, I don't think a strict adherence to a rigid format is what is needed right now.

Your suggestion is a good one, and I have put it before the other DL's. Like many of your worthwhile suggestions, it will be seriously considered for our Guidelines.

Lorrie

Yes, MaryPage. What about Nick Nolte? Yes? No? That is who flies into my mind.

Much uglier than Nick Nolte. And fatter. Or did I read the wrong book? I believe the description was right there in the first chapter!

Speaking of pretty, Kevin Spacey is in a new movie with Jeff Bridges, something called K-PAX. He, SPacey, plays an alien, I think. The Promo, on Monday night football, showed Kevin looking like he was having lots of fun. Think I'll have to go see this one...

I always pictured him sort of like John Belushi.

Belushi is closer. Do you remember Edward G. Robinson? Well, I picture him as uglier than that, but never as dressed up and no cigar.

About Nick Nolte, I think I was referring to his large sense of presence, not just his physical appearance. Where does one find a man with "a great damp loaf of a body?"

Gerard Depradieu? (spelling?) Or the guy who played opposite Rosanne,as her husband, but he has gone stylish, and whose name I cannot remember. The bodies in both are good, but they are both too good looking. Edward G. Robinson for the head.

Aha. MaryPage, you nailed Depardieu. Great connection!!

Was it John Goodman that was Rosanne's husband? I like Depardieu! I think that's it!! By George, I think we've got it!

I don't know where we find someone with the chin that is described...

Would you all believe that John Travolta had originally been considered for the role that eventually went to Kevin Spacey? Can you see him as Quayle?

Lorrie

No! But then, I just cannot see Kevin Spacey, either!

Saw John Travolta on a talk show this week and he is much slimmer, been working with a trainer for a year and no longer has the bulk needed for our Shipping News character. He looks very different.

For some reason, I had thought that E. Annie Proulx was a native Newfoundlander, but that just isn't so. Read about her first experience with this rugged land, written by Sara Rimer, for Book Magazine:

"E. Annie Proulx -- E is for Edna, which she never uses, and Proulx rhymes with true -- is 58. She has lived hard, even recklessly, the way she has wanted. She has been married and divorced three times and has raised three sons alone. She was a waitress, a postal worker and then, for 19 years, a writer of magazine articles on everything from chili growers to canoeing to mice.

Nor does she write about what she already knows. She prefers to go somewhere she has never been and write about what she finds. And so she went with a friend to Newfoundland six years ago. "I was intrigued by the place names," she said. Names like Joe Batt's Arm, Seldom Come By, Dead Man's Cove, Heart's Delight, the Annieopsquotch Mountains.

Getting there took three days in her pickup, and an eight-hour ferry ride. "There was something about that hard, bare rock, the whistling wind, I found very appealing," she said. "I liked the loneliness and desolateness, the heavily wooded feeling of it. I felt clasped to that stony bosom in a way. I was physically shaken. It wasn't so much a rush of energy as a rush of empathy."

Sounds like a strong woman, doesn't she?

Lorrie

How intriguing? Is she going to stop by our discussion? Reading the book, I sensed the affection for the land, also the people, but more for the land.

Saw a promo last night for a movie starring Spacey that is to be released soon. I have decided that with some makeup and some excellent acting, he can (maybe) handle the role of Quoyle.

I see much affection for the characters in The Shipping News. Especially for the old aunt. And for Quoyle himself and his little girls. And various side characters as well.

One hears and reads so much these days about the "demise" of books, etc. that it's always refreshing to hear another viewpoint. Our author here, E. Annie Proulx, made some pertinent remarks on that subject in the New York Times Book section. In part, she says:

"Books speak even when they stand unopened on the shelf. If you would know a man or woman, look at their books, not their software.Books speak even when they stand unopened on the shelf. If you would know a man or woman, look at their books, not their software.Books speak even when they stand unopened on the shelf. If you would know a man or woman, look at their books, not their software."

Proulx Comments

Lorrie

Mrs. Watson, and Maryal:

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just ask this writer firsthand? I have written to her some time back, inviting her to join us, even briefly, in our discussion of Shipping News here, but as yet I have had no answer. I wrote her in care of her publishers, and I understand that takes time. Well, we can but hope, right?

Lorrie

Thank you, Lorrie.

You're very welcome, Mrs. Watson.

I found some more pictures of the area in Newfoundland, I think, about which Proulx wrote in her book. This island, which they call "The Rock" locally, is apparently quite unique in the way the local inhabitants go about their daily lives. Here is also a link to an article written by a Travel librarian about her visit there. An excerpt:

:"My interest in visiting Newfoundland grew out of reading a Pulitzer Prize winning novel (The Shipping News, by Anne Proulx.) Most of the plot takes place in a small fishing village in Newfoundland, and I found the descriptions of life there very intriguing. Therefore, I spent most of my time away from the cities, and concentrated on visiting a number of small, isolated fishing villages."

Here's the rest of her article:

Fadging Around the Rock

Photos: NEWFOUNDLAND COAST

Lorrie

I began re-reading the book this weekend and want to be a part of this discussion. It will be my first book to movie discussion. I am looking forward to it, since it is an excellent book. I was wondering who the movie cast was before I came on here tonight. Marge

Ooooooooooo, thanks for the cast, Lorrie. I do approve of Judi Dench as Agnis. Maybe this movie will be more successful than other recent ones, based on excellent books, that I have found very disappointing--Angela's Ashes comes to mind, for example.

Strange through---I remember no "Ms. Mooseup."

Yes, I love the names too--not only of the places in Newfoundland, but of the characters. Whoever has known anyone named "Quoyle"?

Well, of course, the name of a former vice-president, about whom so many jokes were made, comes to mind. With the transposing of a different vowel, of course. Do we all remember Dan Quayle?

Lorrie

I do wish there was an earlier date for the release of this movie. It is scheduled for December, 2001. I am curious, like you, Maryal, to see how closely the movie follows the plot.

Here are some little tidbits of trivia about the town where the cast and workers stayed while filming:

"ST. JOHN'S, Newfoundland (Reuters) - When actor Kevin Spacey arrived in Trinity, Newfoundland, to film ``The Shipping News,´´ he was accompanied by five security guards, but within a few days four of them were sent back to the United States.

The Oscar-winning Hollywood star discovered that he could walk the quiet streets of the 17th century eastern Canadian village without being pursued by the tabloid press or obsessive fans, and even enjoy a game of pool in the village's only bar without being hounded for an autograph.

When Trinity, population 200, was selected as a location for the $29 million Hollywood movie, director Lasse Hallstrom said: ''It feels like the last untouched part of the world.'' The fact that the people of Trinity were also unaffected by the presence of Hollywood stars turned out to be a bonus.

``The Shipping News,´´ based on E. Annie Proulx´s Pulitzer prize-winning novel, is the second movie shot in Trinity in the past year. John Fisher, who owns Fisher´s Loft inn, estimated that the production will leave more than $6.5 million in Newfoundland, the poorest of Canada´s 10 provinces.

``They took every hotel, motel, and B-and-B room within 50 miles. Seventy people were employed to shovel snow. ... A fisherman was on the payroll to make fog, of all things,´´ said Fisher, who kept the chef at his inn on call 24 hours a day.

But he said his guests were ``extraordinarily good at being ordinary people.´´ Spacey would sometimes eat dinner in his suite and in the morning ``he would bring his dishes to the kitchen,´´ while British actress Dame Judy Dench went one step further and ´´put her dishes in the dishwasher,´´ Fisher said."

Apparently they didn't have to endure the usual Hollywood frenzy.

Lorrie

Lorrie---You clever pup, you! I never would have thought of Dan Quayle. (Even when Quayle was omnipresent in the news, I thought of him as little as possible!)

Thanks for the interesting news-tid about Kevin Spacey. How wonderful that he could enjoy an ordinary game of pool.

Oh, Judi Dench is perfect.

PAIGE:

Dame Judi Dench also has a sense of humor. When Royal Shakespeare Company Director Peter Hall asked Judi Dench to play the title role in a staged, and then later televised, production of Cleopatra, Dench refused, saying that her Cleopatra would be a "menopausal dwarf." Director Hall was later successful in coaxing Dench into the role, of which she won rave reviews from both theatre critics and tv audiences.

I particularly liked her portrayal of Queen Victoria in Mrs. Brown.

Lorrie

It is hard to keep current with the posts, especially when time is needed to read and digest different books, written differently, at the same time.

I had no idea that Kevin Spacey had been cast as Quoyle. Well !! Not what one might have expected. But then again, how closely does a movie have to follow a book to still make the characters believable and likable ? And despite everything, I think Quoyle is likable. And he is more articulate than you know who. There are several strands of narrative and it will be interesting to see which ones are interwoven in the movie.

It is interesting to read two such different authors as Tyler and Proulx at the same time. Still and all, I think it is an enlivening experience in every sense of the word. And what is best, we can discuss it here ! What bliss !

What luck - I have this book but have had it stored away in boxes since I moved into this house. I'm moving to another house Saturday and was going through boxes and, lo and behold, The Shipping News! I'd forgotten where it was, but it reappeared just in time for this discussion! If that isn't fated, I don't know what is!

AHA, SARAH! You see, don't you, that Fate is working with us that you will be handily equipped with your newly-found copy of the book. We're all looking forward to this discussion. Good luck on your new move!

TRAUDE:

If the thought of Kevin Spacey as Quoyle seems incongruous to you, just think of who had originally tried out for the part: John Travolta, no less!

Lorrie

I had delyaed starting this book again because I knew what would happen, and it has. I can't put it down. I am racing through it like it was the first time, instead or the fourth, but I am finding treasures here and there that I must have missed before. I am so glad we are "doing" this book!

Mrs.W--Ah yes, the joy of rereading a good book and noticing so many details one missed the first, second, third time......I know whereof you speak.

I've been doing some reading about this author, and in one of her articles about travelling all over the United States and Canada, particularly on the "back roads," she says this:

"I am amazed when people mourn the loss of the Burma Shave jingles. Better stuff is all around us, in public restrooms, in phone booths, on rocks, stapled to telephone poles, struck on lawns. I remember a large billboard that stood for many years on a back-country road in Colorado. The community used it as a kind of enormous greeting card, welcoming home a son on leave from the Navy, congratulating a child on her fifth birthday, inviting neighbors to a party.

The signs of urban panhandlers seem to indicate that many of them took creative-writing courses. These messages are always printed in neat capital letters: "WILL KILL FOR FOOD," "BIG DUMB UGLY BUM NEEDS YOUR HELP," "MY MOTHER LOVED ME BUT NOW SHE'S GONE."

The digging is never done because the shovel scrapes at life itself. It is not possible to get it all, or even very much of it, but I gather what I can of the rough, tumbling crowd, the lone walkers and the voluble talkers, the high lonesome signers, the messages people write and leave for me to read."

I like that very much particularly the last paragraph!

Lorrie

Lorrie,

one should not judge on the basis of physiognomy alone, I know, I know ------ but it's hard not to when the appearance is as overwhelming as Quoyle's is in the book. In my perception and in my humble opinion, Travolta would have been wrong in the role.

Guess what? There is a popular rock band playing in North America these days called THE SHIPPING NEWS. If you are into rock music, this might amuse you. It was written by a music columnist for a Portland paper.

"Shipping News, a trio composed of the usual suspects (guitarist/bassist/drummer), did well with their small crew, making use of a terrific range of intensity. The guitarist, who shared singing duties with the bassist, apologized after for being overindulgent and long winded, but many of their songs mapped out lengthy and satisfyingly complete. The songs tended to have an interesting introduction, a build up to a climax of sorts, and then a great wind-down or crashing end, which is always exciting. It was kind of like great sex. I can't believe I just said that.

They were great. They didn't need to apologize at all, and I know the crowd was pretty wild about them. They gave props out to The Standard, which is a Portland band I have yet to check out. In fact, Shipping News and The Standard played in Portland Thursday night. I spoke to their very sweet, very handsome drummer after the Seattle show, and apparently, they were well-received at the Pine Street Theater, which was a relief. You never know what kind of response Stumptown kids will decide to give to various bands. Aveo played at the Medicine Hat Gallery, were excellent, and Portland decided, "We don't want to act excited tonight." So the crowd stayed cold. Poor Aveo."

Small world, right?

Lorrie

I do not know how Stacy Keech can "legitimately" portray Quoyle! Or any non-Newfoundlanders for that matter! Judi Dench can!

I just read it for about the 4th time recently. EAP is a favorite author.

~Marj

WELL, MARGV! Four times? That's wonderful, and I'm looking forward to reading about your interpretation of these characters when we begin.

Yes, it's ludicrous, sometimes, isn't it, the actors that Hollywood seems to think can portray book characters. I assume you meant Kevin Spacey, who is going to play Quoyle, and who a lot of people seem to think is mis-cast. Yes, Judi Dench can just about play anybody!

Lorrie

marj: What else have you read by EAP? Her writing style is very interesting, and she certainly has a way of telling her story that is unpredictable. I just finished my third reading, and was still as enchanted as the first and second times.

I just wanted to mention here that i found the setting for this story to be very harsh, unforgiving. Not at all like some of the characters in the book, but a place where I don't think I'd want to spend a long vacation. Judging from what Ms. Proulx wrote, one would have to really love being around water to appreciate Newfoundland or Labrador.

Lorrie

Don't you think a fine actor can make us believe any character he undertakes? I'm hoping that Kevin S. has such capacity. Meryl Streep seems to climb in and out of other people's skins and I know there are more such actors--Kevin Kline is another.

Elizabeth, I agree about the actor. I have seen several of Kevin Spacey's films and I think he will surprise most of us by his portrayal of Quoyle. He is a great character actor, more than a leading man type. Personally, I can't wait for the movie!

Elizabeth, and Babs:

Kevin Spacey is a fine character actor, and I have liked him ever since he played the TV role of some kind of gangster in a series. He and his character's sister were the villians in the story, darned if I can remember the title! And what a wonderful job he did in "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil!"

Lorrie

Well, here we are, it's the 15th, and I think we're all ready to talk about this book. So take off your shoes, pull up a chair, help yourself to the popcorn, and get comfortable!

Do you see the significance of the chapter-by-chapter reference to the nautical “Ashley’s Book of Knots?” We’re told by the publishers that each knot, with its description, is pertinent to the chapter it introduces.

My, oh My, what interesting people we are meeting here! In my opinion, I think Ms. Proulx has created some of the most original, including their names, characters we’ve seen in a long while.

There’s Quogue, of course, who at first meeting seems like the perenially loser, but for whom I have formed a sort of affection, cluminess and ineffectiveness aside.

There’s Petal, his heartless wife, who brought boy friends home to have sex with, while her husband listens in the next room, silently crying.

And there’s Aunt Agnis, the maiden aunt who seems to be the only person alive who actually cares about Quoyle, except for his two daughters, about whom there seems to be little said. There are even more eccentric characters further on, but the main characters in the book seem to be plagued by dangerous undercurrents, both in the physical world and in their own minds.

As to our protagonist, ( I can’t really call him a hero) “a great damp loaf of a body,” as Proulx describes him, how does the author’s comic style make you feel about him? Incidentally, can anyone tell me why Quogue keeps covering his chin with his hand?

Lorrie

The site, Newfoundland, is especially bleak and unfriendly. This is the kind of place one would come to only in dire need. It has the feeling of a last outpost, beyond here is only the unforgiving sea. Even the house, itself, is bleak and perched on the edge, literally. Old, empty, echoing. The "look" of the house is purposfully vague, adding to the air of uncaring menace. Never is there any warmth in the descriptions of the house. About the chin, Quoyle has inherited the family chin, a protrusion on the end of his face which must have been devastating to the young child. His father and his brother, apparently, were not cursed with this appendage, and he had no other family around so he couldn't know that it was inherited--it must have felt like an albatross.

MRS. WATSON;

Yes, an albatross. Very apt. I had the same feeling about that house. Eerie, in a way, and so very neglected. However, I did enjoy reading about the efforts to refurbish it, it sounded like there was a lot of work to do. I've always loved fix-up programs on TV. "This Old House" was one of my favorites.

Anyway, this bleak setting could be, and hopefully was, done very well on the screen.

How do you like the author's prose? I find it fresh, and very vivid. No one could ever say this writer was aping someone els's style. It's too original. For instance, I love the way Quoyle sometimes thinks in "headlines."

Lorrie

I think I mentioned somewhere earlier that I had invited E. Annie Proulx to join us here in our discussion, but regretfully, I guess that won't be possible. Here is a letter I received from a representative of Simon and Schuster:

"Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I've spoken with Annie Proulx's editor and she said that it wouldn't be possible. She will hardly ever do publicity. Sorry we couldn't make it happen for you."

Oh, well, we tried.

Lorrie

Lorrie: Thanks anyway. Seems as if some people might be curious enough to lurk, perhaps, to see what people are thinging. However, this book is so old, she probably wrote it 10 or more years ago, that there might not be any curiosity about its reception left.

Someone once asked Proulx how she happened to write about Newfoundland, of all places, and I thought her answer was rather interesting:

"I have a friend who is a good fishing companion of mine and we were looking for new water. We cast our minds over the Maritimes and I said, 'Well what about Newfoundland?' So we got a map, spread it open on the table and the place names just roared up from the paper. It was extraordinary. Dead-man's Cove, Seldom Come By, Heart's Content, Heart's Delight. I was enchanted by the names and wanted to go there.

So we went up and the person I was with loathed it. He hated it. It was cold; it was snowing and mid-July; it was sleet; the wind was ferocious. I don't think I'd been on the Island for seven or eight minutes when I was just struck viscerally. It was this real, physical force. I liked this harsh, bony, bare, empty, cruel and beautiful place so much I could not bare it. It was very, very intense. Oddly enough, in the many times I've since been up that always happens. That same clutch of this land just comes at me. Once in a while we feel that. You go to a place that you've never been before and it seizes you and in a sense never lets go. That's what happened to me in Newfoundland and that's why I wrote about it.

Lorrie

Lorrie,

just a few comments now; more will follow, tomorrow I hope.

I had difficulty with the terseness of the style, the almost brutal way in which some things were expressed and impressions conveyed. Reading became easier after I returned the well-worn library copy and bought my own; it is heavily marked by now.

The reader feels terrible pity for this large man, outsized even as a child, ill-treated and forever put down by an insensitive father and sadistic brother, and told he was a failure so often that he came to believe it himself.

I think he was monumentally insecure and had more chips than the proverbial one on his shoulders; one had to do with his chin = first mentioned in paragraph 2 (!). Isn't it interesting how often he feels compelled to cover it with his hand in the EARLY chapters, and that the impulse to do so comes less frequently over time ? Lowlife Petal thankfully left the scene early, but not after inflicting even more emotional damage on him than the graceless members of his family. And what about the name of the (fictional ?) Mockingburg !

Some of the references and descriptions were difficult to take, I must admit; much of the nautical terminology went right over my head and needs to be reread, slowly. What an inhospitable place they repaired to ! Chilling in every sense.

My paperback says on the last page that "AP lives in Vermont and Newfoundland, but spends much of each year traveling North America." The book was published in 1993.

I always believed that I had read this book--it possibly was a Christmas gift in 1993. It's been on my bookshelf. But now when I am reading it again for this discussion, there was only one passage that seemed very familiar and that was the good road that ended in the asphalt parking lot of an abandoned factory (around page 40). I believe Ms. Proulx writes great descriptions that really stick with you. A lot was going on in my life in 1993-94 and I now believe that I never finished the book. But I still remembered that scene where they were driving on that road. It will be interesting to see the scenes taken on location for the movie.

I have to admit that I tried to get interested in the knots at the beginning of each chapter but it did not really add much for me. And I also skipped over some of the fishing details. But I have little knowledge of Newfoundland -- the descriptions in this book made me almost feel the cold, the presence of the sea, and the hard life there. The story line held my interest and the characters introduced in these first chapters are most interesting. I think I read in the interview that the author prefers to develop the male characters -- it seems much harder to figure out what is going on with the little girls and the aunt. Marge

TRAUDE:

Your perception of Quoyle is remarkably similar to mine. I can't help but feel a great deal of sympathy for this huge hulk of a man who can't seem to do anything right, and when he does go to work in that strange newspaper office, I kept hoping that he'd make it this time.

And what about those co-workers of his? True brigands of outback journalism! There's Nutbeem, who steals foreign news from the radio, an owner of the newspaper who calls in sick almost every day yet rules with an iron fist, and an old bachelor who writes the women's interest page. Proulx's prose, albeit a bit choppy, I find to be quite vivid and fresh, even rollicking, sometimes.

I am curious as to Quoyle's relationship with Petal Bear. Even after her death she seems to have a strong hold on him, and her memories still haunt him. Can you justify his feelings for her?

Lorrie

MARGE:

I thought the knots headings are amusing, but some seem more apt than others, see Chapter 2, for instance. This introduces the chapter on Petal Bear, and of course the love life of Quoyle and Petal.

However, in my particular book, in the heading of Chapter 4 is completely blank, except for a small sentence saying "Cast Away....to be forced from a ship by disaster"........MARINER'S DICTIONARY Is this blank spot significant?

That journey they made on those awful roads leading up to the deserted parking lot was torturous, wasn't it? I can see how something like that would stick in your mind.

Lorrie

Ahhhh!! Major panic!! I'm behind on all my reading, but tonight I had reserved for a third or more of this book...and it's NOT on my bookshelf!! Too many moves. I must have put it in give-away pile or loaned it to someone, though I was certain I hadn't. This will put me even more behind in the reading. I read it 5 or 6 years ago, but definitely need to reread.

For those reacting to the starkness of the land.....where is the link (in this folder) that I used just last week to see (shock) beautiful pictures of the fishing villages perched on or nestled beneath these monster size rocks? Having read the book, I definitely was not expecting to see this place as beautiful, but I hung around oohing and aahing for an hour or two in those links. Was it in someone's post? There were pictures from each year of 4 or 5 years visiting many fishing ports of Newfoundland with 60 or 70 other sailboats. In the same links, I also (sorry) looked at vacation pictures to Bali!!!! Had a ball seeing someone's vacation pictures...a month in Bali!! WHO LEFT THOSE LINKS???.....I guarantee some of you will feel differently about this land if you see those pictures.

Betty

Oh, here it is....Lorrie's Post # 53....great photos!!!!! Lorrie, could permission be obtained to use one of these pictures in our heading?

betty

I think Quoyle will never forget Petal Bear simply because she is the first woman to pay him any attention. He feels ugly and unwanted. His father and brother dispised him. His best friend moves to California with his wife. He's terribly lonely. He would have chosen the first woman who gave him a passing glance.

Then, I think he will never forget Petal Bear because she gave him two little girls, Bunny and Sunshine. Nothing can make you feel more needed and loved than your children. Quoyle proves it too. He gives all his love and care to these little girls. They need him, and he needs them.

When we have children with someone, I think a part of them remains in our lives and our hearts whether the person is good or bad. Quoyle might want to forget Petal, but Bunny might tilt her head like Petal, or Sunshine's eyes might be the same color as her mother's. How can Quoyle forget?

As HATS pointed out Petal Bear was the first woman to give Quoyle any attention. As it turns out, she gave all sorts of men "attention." I think it's really sad that Quoyle, who has been rejected and diminished all his life, picks a woman who will further diminish him.

But, there are those little girls, Bunny and Sunshine. And since Petal Bear is a loathsome person, best to get her out of the way quickly. Now Quoyle has every reason to try any adventure that will lead to a new life.

I love this book.

Maryal, this is my first reading. I love the writing style. Like Lorrie, I think the writing is fresh. I do need help with interpreting the chapter quotations. I know those quotations are important.

I know Newfoundland is bleak and cold. There is a blizzard in May, but I like this place, and I like the people.

BETTY:

Good point! I must consult with my techie advisors here. Let me get back to you.

Lorrie

MARYAL, AND HATS:

At first reading, Quoyle seems to be a real loser, doesn't he? You feel like shaking him and yelling, "Don't let her walk all over you like this!" but then you realize it's not his nature to confront, he seems the more passive type, to me.

But then we read about his obvious devotion to his little girls, his outrage when he discovers that Petal had actually "sold" them, and his determination to make a decent life for them. The more I learn about this man, the better I like him.

HATS: You spoke as though you might know Newfoundland. Have you ever been there? The few times I ever heard about that spot on the map was when the small town in Wisconsin where I lived held the world wide Lumberjack festival, and some of the finest lumberjacks in the world came from British Columbia and Newfoundland.

Lorrie

Lorrie, I have never been to Newfoundland. While reading the book, I can just "feel" the place and the characters. So, my judgments might be wrong. All that I get is coming from Proulx.

I haven't been to Newfoundland either, but when I want to imagine it, I think of Maine (where I have lived) in January of a particularly brutal winter.

One of the reasons I love to teach this book is the oddly shaped and yet lovable protagonist. Quoyle is set up in the first few chapters, as Lorrie points out, as a real loser who has been rejected all his life. He also appears to be not all that intelligent. And yet, fairly quickly we begin to warm to him, to see his good points despite the situations he has been in. And then there's Agnis, the take-charge aunt who enters at just the right time. . . .

this was one of the first books on tape i actually was able to listen to and focus upon- i will replay it ASAP to join you- I remember that I was entranced by the device of setting and place as character.

BETTY:

We have posted a link above in the heading to those great pictures you asked about. I thought the shots of The Northern Peninsula and the island of Ramea seemed very much like I pictured them from Proulx's description, don't you?

We can post the link without problems, but to print out the actual photos themselves in the heading would lead to a copyright question, I'm told.

I urge you all to click on to these photographs---they are incredibly realistic! Really gets the mood of Newfoundland.

Lorrie

WELCOME, YILIN!

Believe it or not, I have never "listened" to a book before, but some people speak so glowingly of it, I'm tempted. I'm sure you'll find the book just as fascinating as you did when you first "heard" it! We'll be looking forward to hearing from you!

MARYAL:

Maine, yes, and perhaps somewhat like Minnesota here, where I live. I can relate somewhat to the winter descriptions. Still, I cannot remember ever seeing a blizzard in July here!

This brings me to the part of the story that describes Quoyle's first days at his new job. What did you think of the colorful characters that Proulx introduced as his co-workers? One thing we must admit about this woman's writing--she is never banal, or trite. Her character descriptions are unlike any I've seen in a long while. And those names!

Lorrie

Reflecting on this way of telling the story, I see that she has set it up so that,while not told in the first person, it is almost entirely told from Quoyle's point of view. There are few places where another character's thoughts are related. It is mostly what Q sees and hears and thinks. I really like the way she describes the daughters - not blonde, blue-eyes angels, but spirited, flawed, yet lovable, vulnerable, like real people are. Even Petal, it is hard to "hate" her, because she is so openly what she is.

MRS. WATSON:

As you say, if nothing else, Petal was not a hypocrite. She made no secret of the fact that she detested her children, and had nothing but contempt for her husband. She certainly made no attempt to hide those feelings, right?

What did you think of the eccentric people who work with Quoyle in the newspaper office? Is there any particular one you seem to remember more? Do you feel that the author here has a firm understanding of the foibles of the local characters, even though she is not a native Newfoundlander?

Lorrie

The character of William Pretty was most memorable to me, as I believe the author intended. The others were like migrating birds, here and then gone, but WP was deeply ingrained in the community, and his personal history revealed his vulnerability. No where is the contrast stronger, ot counting the Petal and Quoyle dyad, then WP and his columns. One, the homey neighborhood exchange, and two, the gossip column. Of course, the full range is his vulnerability is left to the later parts of the story, so I won't say any more now.

I hope we haven't missed some of the more humorous aspects of Proulx's writing. Those eccentric characters that Quoyle finds himself working with, for instance, like the endless tale of how Nutbeem happened to land in Newfoundland on his interrupted trip around the world, the story that no one can get him to stop telling.

Or the way Quoyle always thinks in headlines. On page 54,

Warren made bursting noises under the bed. A rancourous stench. "DOG FARTS FELL FAMILY OF FOUR"

Lorrie

From what you've read so far, what do you think is the strongest element in this book--------the writing style, the characters, the setting, the plot, or something else? So far, what would you say is the weakest element?

Why do you think the author chose such a choppy, abbreviated style for this novel? Would using complete sentences have hurt the tone?

Lorrie

I love the characters, the descriptions of the landscape, and the writing style.

I, too, responded most to the descriptions of the physical surroundings. Since I think visually, descriptions are always important to me, except in romances where descriptions of dress, hair, jewels, etc, go into painstaking detail!

Hi, there, Sarah! We're looking forward to your presence here next week, and I'm sure you've been peeking in to see what a nice group we have here.

One critic of E. Annie Proulx said, of this book, that she wrote so ambitiously and so utterly vividly, and kept it so alive in the readers' minds, about the whole aspect of this landscape that some thought this was a book mainly about Newfoundland, and the characters only window dressing. Do you agree?

Lorrie

What I remember most about the book is the characters, and how much I fell in love with them. That said, Newfoundland is certainly a principal character in the book!

Lorrie,

it seems to me that the characters really belong in Newfoundland. They and the province are a unit. Thank you for providing links to the marvelous photos.

They are great photos, aren't they, Traude? We can only hope that the film, when it comes out, will show up those rugged coastal towns and mountains just as clearly. It should, because they were in Newfoundland for location,

Now that you've all met Quoyle, can you see Kevin Spacey as a potential lead? With the proper makeup, I can, and better yet, it's easy to picture Dame Judi Dench as the Aunt.

I'm still perplexed about Quoyle's children. I understand about Bunny's nightmares, and her irrational fear of a white dog, but it seems to me that very little is said about the other little girl, Sunshine. Perhaps the author thought she was too young to absorb all the psychological impacts that Bunny had endured?

Lorrie

Lorrie---Yes, Sunshine was so very young. Also, it is true to experience that often one child in a family will be more affected by trauma than others.

From the point of view of the author, you get a clearer focus on the little girls by having Bunny take center stage. She is more the extrovert, the one in whom you can see the turmoil because she acts out. I think we can safely assume that Sunshine has also been affected, but we don't know to what extent.

The strongest element in this book for me is the descriptive writing and the setting--the way we all feel we have been in Newfoundland (even if we have not) once we have read this book. The characters that she wants to describe are extremely well-described and I know we all have images in our minds. It is probably going to be a shock to see the movie images! But, for me, the weakest element is the way we are left dangling about some of the other characters which are not so fully fleshed out for us. I especially think those are the females. Someone mentioned Sunshine. I had lots of questions about Agnis. And what do we know about Quoyle's mother? His parents committed joint suicide. What about her ashes? Did I miss something or does Proulx really focus mostly on the male characters and just leave us hanging about the female characters except where they are necessary to the plot?

I do not think it is surprising that Quoyle was so obsessed with Petal after his one month of "fiery happiness" with her. It was bound to happen to someone who had been treated the way that is described on pages 2 and 3. He had really only known misery from the people that should have loved him. Proulx can really say something very well in just one phrase like "his heart scarred forever by tattoo needles pricking the name of Petal Bear."

Most of the way through I was rather distracted by the choppy, abbreviated style but I wonder if the book would have gotten a Pulitzer prize if it had been written in ordinary sentences. It is unique and different because of it. And it fits since she says that Quoyle thought in newspaper headings. I remember one time when I was learning shorthand that I began visualizing my thoughts in shorthand symbols. Of course, I never used shorthand so that was long ago forgotten, but I believe Quoyle could have formed his thoughts into newspaper column headings as he struggled to become a newspaperman. Marge

MARYAL:

I'm hoping that we will hear more about little Sunshine and Bunny as we get into the story more. On reading over some notes about the movie I read where the role of Bunny, Spacey's daughter, will be played by triplets: Alyssa, Kaitlyn, and Lauren Gainer. That's interesting. Also, besides John Travolta, Billy Bob Thornton was also considered for the role of Quoyle, but personally I think Kevin Spacey will fit the part better.

MARGE:

When I first started reading this book, I was prepared to wonder how in the world Proulx could have won the Pulitzer, but as you say, that particular style is quite unique, not like any I remember from another author. I feel that this "choppy" way of writing adds to the intensity of the story, and in a vague way contributes to the aura of that vast, harsh setting.

I am continually surprised by the character of Quoyle. At first he seems a likable dud who can't win for losing (the purchase of the hapless boat, for instance)but his patience with and love for his daughters reveals him as a man whose strenth of character is far greater than even he guesses.

Oh, Marge, I suffered the same syndrome. Even to this day I sometimes find myself mentally writing Gregg shorthand in conversations or even watching TV. Bad habits are hard to break, right? Lorrie

Yes, as Marge observes, there are many fragmentary sentences in this novel. I've taught it to freshmen, pointing out the fragments after we read a section outloud. Every time I have to explain to them that they can only break the rules when they KNOW the rules, and that most of the writers we will be reading break the rules one way or another.

Fragments are appearing more and more in print. For emphasis, often. Proulx did not make up the "style." Fragments and the use of said most likely--and I am speculating here--have their origin in advertising.

Ads used to be written in complete sentences--check out any ad from the first half of the 20th century and you will find whole sections of prose describing the product. But now, if you check out the printed ads in any magazine, you will find that there are many many fragments.

Coke---"The real thing" (or maybe that's Pepsi).

"Money. It's just not what it used to be." (Phoenix)

Even complete sentences are often short and punchy--"Just do it." (Nike? Addidas?--one of those)

From The Shipping News Chap. 6: Quoyle is answering Sunshine's question, "Dad, are we scared?" --"No, honey. It's an adventure." Didn't want them to grow up timid. The aunt snorted. He glanced in the rearview mirror. Warren's yellow eyes met his. Quoyle winked at the dog. To cheer her up.

Eight sentences--two fragments. Sometimes there are even more.

Maryal

Maryal: Do you ever have your students read George V Higgins? Hw was a master at dialogue, convoluted, page after page, but utterly engrossing. One really has to use one's brain to read his stuff, he gives bits of information here and there, it is great fun. Would you say that Proulx's prose is more like speech? People use fragments when they speak, especially when it is between comrades where each knows the other's style and subject matter well already.

Fragments? Hmmm, interesting. I believe Proulx's dialogue was very fragmented, but then I think it's the way the Newfoundlanders speak to one another, don't you?

This author writes very convincingly (and almost exclusively) from the point of view of men, it seems. Why do you suppose this is?

Lorrie

Mrs. W---Excellent point. Yes, I agree that we often speak in fragments.

One other thing that Proulx achieves by writing in such a trimmed down style--the reader has to slow down. If reader doesn't slow down, reader is likely to miss something important.

Lorrie---Yes, at the moment we have the male point of view. Most interesting and, I think, convincing.

I have been pondering the question about the importance EAP places on Newfoundland. Seems as if there are two major factors: 1. Sharing the experience of coping with such weather extremes unites the inhabitants; and 2. The extreme weather makes everyone's livelihood dependent on its effects, like farmers coping with potential tornadoes several times a day. Similar situations come to mind: stories taking place on Siberia, in Antartica, Sahara Desert/Australian Outback, etc.

Or a Minnesota White-out?

No, seriously, I believe the climate of Newfoundland, and its bleak, harsh surroundings, make for a much greater significance of the story here, besides giving us a perfect setting for the way poor Quoyle attempts to redeem himself. The setting is definitely part of the story, a heavy part, indeed!

As we go further on, we can see evem more examples of Quoyle's devotion to Bunny. On page 107, paragraphs three to the end of the chapter is some of the most intense writing in the book.

Lorrie

I think it's safe to say at this point that Proulx has made us aware that the Aunt is a lesbian. Her (the aunt's) failure to mention that she had named the dog after her companion, Irene Warren, and the general avoidance of the subject is a sort of giveaway.

Does this affect your feeling for the character of Aunt Agnis? What did you think of her mesmerizing and disquieting stories of their Newfoundland ancestors, especially the one about Quoyle's grandfather who dorwned at age 12 having already sired Quoyle's father?

Lorrie

Yes Maryal, the reader must read this book slowly for there is , I think, much between the lines.

Lorrie, I am still not comfortable with the choppy phrases - some without verb. Are they meant to tell us something about Quoyle early on ? And if so, what ? Do we have an inkling yet ? Later in the narrative he is indeed "thinking in headlines", as was pointed out the other day.

My problem is two-fold : I feel guilty about not being able to muster more than pity for poor Quoyle; in fact, I read the physical description of him with sme revulsion. I have thought of Charles Laughton because of his bulk, though Laughton was short.

There is something unsparing in the details of the family incest, which I found hard to take (and I've said that already); I also have have the sensation of something macabre; it makes me uncomfortable, and I'm not even squeamish !

The second problem is my reluctance to read dialect - in any language. It makes reading much less of the joy it usually is for me.

Yes, Agnis appears to be lesbian. And yes, the men in the story are much more vividly drawn than the women : the women are not brought to life as fully as the male protagonists, it seems to me.

Back soon.

Interesting. The story is told from Q's perspective, almost a first person narrative, and he was shy with women. So women are portrayed in terms of their actions, not much depth. Not shallow, but lacking definition. It is as if EAP had taken on Q's personna as she wrote. I hadn't noticed the choppiness, that explains why it is not a smooth read. Do the choppy sentences diminish in number as Q becomes a better writer?

TRAUDE:

You say you felt pity for Quoyle. Something like the emotion you would have felt for Quasimodo, (a part Charles Laughton played very well, incidentally) in "The Hunchback of Notre Dame?" I, too, felt terribly sorry for Quoyle, but as time went on I began to respect him more and more, the way he doggedly went about trying to make a decent home for his family.

MRS. WATSON:

I have always felt that it is difficult for a man to write deeply of a woman's emotions, in a novel, and I suppose the same could be said vice versa. But I do feel that in this case, Proulx has managed to insert herself deep into Quoyle's psyche, and thereby makes us totally aware of his inner thoughts. A difficult job to do, for a woman.

What do you think about the Quoyle family's new friends and neighbors? There is a good deal of attention paid to Jack Buggit, and his family, do you think it will have any bearing on the rest of the story?

Lorrie

I like the choppiness of the sentences. They slow me down and make me pay attention to detail. This aspect of the novel will disappear in the film, alas.

And it is most interesting that Quoyle is the point-of-view character, at least in this part of the novel. I surely do not know everything there is to know about being male, but Quoyle rings true to me too, Lorrie. I think all good writers like to have a try at creating believable people of the opposite sex.

What an imaginative challenge to think male if you are a woman or female if you are a man! Toni Morrison does this successfully, I think, with Paul D in Beloved.

Maryal

Hello all! I just got the book but find it so good that I'm just zipping along in reading it. Until you all pointed it out, I was not even aware of the choppy sentences -somehow when I read it all blends together into one whole, like I'm listening to someone tell the story.

I've been to Newfoundland. Way back in 1985 my brother, his wife, her mother and myself drove there from Alberta. We were there for about ten days in late September and I think it was the first time the weather was warm and sunny at that time of year -people would make jokes about us bringing our Alberta sunshine with us. We spent time on both the west coast and the east coast; and I found Newfoundland to be rocky, but very beautiful. We spent the last three days in a trailer we rented from people who came from the States to spend the summer -can't recall their name though.

Enough of that. I like Quoyle. I think he is a kind of Everyman because there are more people like him in the world than there are not. Not making as much sense there as I'd like.

Just thought I'd jump in with a few thoughts

MARYAL:

Yes, Toni Morrison is a very good example, Another one could be Bronte's Heathcliffe, from "Wuthering Heights." There are many examples of women authors successfully portraying male characters, but it seems to me a difficult thing to do.

NELLIE:

Finally! We hear from someone who has actually been to Newfoundland, and it sounds as though what you saw closely resembles the description Proulx gives us of that rather bleak, but beautiful (?) land. Did you notice any difference in the speech patterns of the natives you met? Did they have a sort of patois? Traude mentions something about that in one of her posts.

I found that the "choppy" style of writing seems to become unnoticeable with time. I suppose it's all in getting used to it.

Were you surprised to learn about the Aunt's admirable skills? There's a person I like immensely. She seems to know exactly what she wants and how to go about getting it, and all this with some kind of a shadow hovering over her past, it seems like. There's an air of mystery to a lot of this book---it makes you want to go on to see what it is they are hiding, or what lies in their past they don't want to bring out just yet.

Lorrie

MRS. WATSON:

Interesting point in your post #122. Yes, I do believe Quoyle becomes a better writer as he plods along in his job, and it does affect the choppiness of the book. When he is allowed to carry his own column for the newspaper, it seems to me he truly blossoms, and I feel that he is becoming quite adept at what he does. Does anyone else feel that?

Lorrie

Lorrie, I did notice some differences in the speech patterns, but less than we had been warned about. I think that the people who came more in contact with us touristy types probably tried to adapt their speech to ours. I did find that people were very friendly and helpful. When we first arrived we wanted to take a walk through a provincial park called Blow Me Down -can't recall the exact name -but since it was late in September it was closed. The fellow who watched over it lived nearby and when he saw that we wanted a look at the park, he opened the gate for us and said we could spend as long as we liked and to knock on his door when we were done.

The aunt is a surprise and an admirably strong woman.

Here is a quote from page 4 which made me like Quoyle and feel a certain affinity for him:

For Quoyle was a failure at loneliness, yearned to be gregarious, to know his company was a pleasure to others.

What gets me is that green house chained to the rock like some fractious, untamable beast. I think that I would be afraid that it would break lose everytime there was a storm and go sliding off into the water.

I remember that on the west coast there were such constant strong winds blowing into shore that pines that normally would grow a hundred feet upwards, there grew to the same size bent flat against the ground because of that wind.

I think that Quoyle has a better life in Newfoundland than he ever had anywhere else.

We haven't said much about the appearance of the tall, quiet young widow Wavey who plays accordian for her "special" child to dance to. I think this is where Quoyle begins to wonder and hope that there might be more than one kind of love, and that it might come more than once in a lifetime. What did you think of this woman?

Lorrie

Hey, Everyone! It occurs to me, that since the traffic has slowed down quite a bit in this discussion,and what with Sarah being so caught up in moving, etc., that we could accelerate the pace just a trifle and move ahead to more of the story. Shall we talk about whatever seems to impress you in what we read further on, and just disregard the former schedule we had posted up above? Is this agreeable with you all?

Lorrie

Quoyle seems like a very good father. He seems totally in touch with Bunny and Sunshine's growth. He knows Bunny is different and can't quite put his finger on what makes her seem odd to him.

As a parent, I have experienced that feeling. I know something is different or out of the ordinary about one of my children, and yet, you can't quite put your finger on what's going on with them. This feeling drives you crazy. At that point, you know your children need you, but your not sure in what way.

Aunt Agnis says Bunny's world has been turned upside down because of all she has loss. I think Agnis puts it very well.

At age thirty-six, for the first time Quoyle feels he has done something right. Is Quoyle truly a journalist? It sounds like he has found himself. Now, he will have his own column.

What a lesson! When others discount us, we must not give up, but continue the fight to find where our gifts or dreams lie.

Speaking of Wavey, there's a sentence I loved and will paraphrase: Every man has/loves four women in his lifetime: the maid in the meadow, the wild woman, the strong capable woman and the tall dark woman or maybe it was tall and silent woman. ...elizabeth

Elizabeth N, I like Wavey, don't you? She is a strong woman. She is raising Herry by herself, and he has special needs. She works at the library. I think she is looking at Quoyle, and I think Quoyle is looking at her. Aunt Agnis, I think, has her eyes on Dawn who works at the upholstery shop for Quoyle, but Quoyle likes Wavey because she's tall and is a walking woman. Why is a "walking woman" so important to Quoyle? I didn't understand why that was so important.

Quoyle says Petal always liked to ride or lie down and never walk.

HATS:

I think your last statement answers your question, don't you? there's such a vast difference between the two women. I wondered about the hold that Petal seemed to have over Quoyle, even when dead. Her memory threatens to squelch the new relationship with Wavey. Is this because Quoyle doesn't understand love without pain? Both he and Wavey have experienced abusive relationships previously, do you think that will affect how they treat each other?

I think that the women portrayed in this book are very strong characters, indeed. From the practical Aunt, to the strong, silent Wavey, and yes, even the two daughters, there is a continuing thread of strength and endurance. We see it also in the wife of Quoyle's employer, Jack Buggit. Strong characterization there!

Lorrie

I'm also wondering why Quoyle seems so angry with the knowledge of an old kin, still alive in Newfoundland? Is it because Quoyle is denying where he came from, especially after learning the details of his father's relationship with the aunt?

Lorrie

I agree that Wavey presents a new experience for Quoyle, one that he has a hard time taking in. Since his "love" for Petal was continually undermined by her unconscienable behavior, and since he was not loved as a child, he has no experience with love that does not cause pain.

Why is it important that she is "walking"? Having spent a good deal of time on a small island off the coast of Maine where people frequently walk, I think of how much easier it is to encounter each other when we are walking. When driving we all are sealed in individual mobile units. It is impossible to interact, or nearly so. But walking opens up a whole new world where one can actually have a personal encounter of some kind while going from place to place. Sometimes this encounter is but a nod; sometimes a conversation occurs.

Petal moved way too fast; Wavey moves slowly.

These statements helped me understand in a small way why Quoyle still seems so attached to the undesirable Petal.

"Quoyle chopped at his secret path to the shore. Read his books. Played with his daughters. Saw briefly, once, Petal's vanished face in Sunshine's look. Pain he thought blunted erupted hot. As though the woman herself had suddenly appeared and disappeared. Of course she had, in a genetic way..."

Victims of abuse, and certainly Q is one, seem to feel that they deserve it, that they are at fault, not the abuser. Q's history would fit, he has been blamed all his life for being who/what he is, as if he chose to be big and clumsy, chose his formidable chin, chose Petal. Why she chose him is obvious, she was adored by him, and it was amusing for a while. Petal was a taker. Wavey is a giver.

MARYAL:

I love the way you compare walking to the sedentary choice of driving--I never thought of it in quite that way, but we do miss encounters when we're locked into the cocoon of an automobile.

HATS, AND MRS. WATSON:

Wow! These past few posts by all you people have been truly meaningful! Everyone seems to feel the same gradual respect for Quoyle as we go along, and I can see we are all in agreement about the differences between his first love, and Wavey, his second.

I was a bit intrigued about the aunt's character. I liked her a lot, thought she was very pragmatic, among other things, but I don't know why I was so surprised to discover that she was a lesbian. For you, does this fact add dimension to the story? Do you think it adds to the aunt's character? Does the matter-of-fact way Proulx treats this aunt's sexuality help make you, as a reader, a less judgemental critic?

Lorrie

It is interesting to share -- I am glad Maryal is here since she knows this book well. Is it just me or does Proulx leave more loose ends in this novel than we are accustomed to? I think of the following things: no mention of Quoyle's mother's influence on him and what happened to the mother's ashes (the way Agnis disposed of the father's is very interesting!) How could Q be so surprised to learn what Agnis' business was--(p 123) when he says he could not have been more surprised if she was a nuclear physicist (in such a small town and when they were living in the same house?) Why was the Hitler boat and the gruesome findings in Chapter 21 in the book? I expected more to happen about that than did. I thought the elderly cousin had to be in the story in order for Agnis' incest story to be told to Quoyle since Agnis was telling only what she wanted to tell to Quoyle about her previous life. Also he emphasizes the "quirks" in the generations of the Quoyle family. Quoyle learned a lot from Billy Pretty about the Quoyle past. But I could not figure out why the Hitler boat needed to be in there. I guess life is that way too--all the loose ends are not always tied down. There isn't always a momentous importance to every event. And I still think this book's description and its characters are amazing--so vivid. Marge

I too find it interesting how Quoyle is picking up his past in bits and pieces from other people. He says that Agnis is quiet about the past. Billy Pretty makes a good friend for Quoyle because he seems to know so much about Quoyle's past. I find it interesting that the Quoyle family wanted nothing to do with the Pentecostal faith, and I might be wrong, but if that old green house could talk, it would shed much light on many family mysteries.

Learning about Billy Pretty's family along the way is interesting too. His father is an orphan and his first name was William Ankle. The book makes you realize the importance of family. It is interesting that long after family members die their pasts live on. There pasts, at time, can hurt us or help us. Whether harmful or helpful, we need to know about our past. Poor Quoyle is searching. Quoyle is on a search for his roots.

About Agnis, are we told outright that she is a lesbian? I just finished chapter 20. I know she calls Irene Warren her significant other, but could she mean a very special, special friend ? Is that naive?

Why does the newspaper include so many sexual abuse stories? Is it just a sleazy paper? The stories are horrible and heartwrenching? Are they true stories or just made up stories to get people to buy the paper?

The epigraphs which head each chapter from The Ashley Book of Knots fascinate me. Some of them are more connected to the material of the chapter than others. The book starts out with the definition of Quoyle--"A coil of rope." Followed by "A Flemish flake is a spiral coil of one layer only. It is made on deck, so that it may be walked on if necessary."

What a perfect definition of Quoyle at the beginning of the novel. He has been walked on all his life.

Quoyle as a devoted father--this has already been mentioned and there are numerous examples in the book. The following is one of my favorites. Quoyle is up on the roof, reshingling it and little Bunny climbs up to help him:

"Oh, little child," breathed Quoyle. "Wait there." His voice was low but passionately urgent. "Don't move. Wait there for me. I'm coming to get you." The mesmerizing voice, the father fixing his chld in place with his starting eyes, inching down the evil slope on the wrong side of everything, then grasping the child's arm, her hammer falling away, he saying "Don't move, don't move, don't move," hearing the painted hammer clatter on the rock below. And Quoyle, safe on the rungs, Bunny pinned between his chest and the ladder.

How perfectly Proulx captures that moment of anxiety.

I'm not going to do this well, but I want to describe some of my own experience with walking: my husband and I walk almost every day in a large lovely reginal park. Since it is some distance from our home we drive there, park, and walk. Here's the strange thing--on occasion when I walk to the park alone, I find that as I enter it I enter an enchanted place--just as I walk in the gates. A sort of quiet fills the air, everything seems magical. Then, the following days as we drive in, as usual, I try to recapture the sensation but it is not there. And like any good scientific experiment--it's repeatable. I walk there; I enter an enchanted land. I have come to believe that the act of walking, walking, walking changes us in some way, and IMHO when we change, our environment changes. That's the best I can do with this. Does it sound bizarre? But to get back to Wavey and how she is different from Petal--all that walking Wavey does may create a quiet which surrounds her and gives off a kind of peace--and Petal is like static or jazz. Enough.

Elizabeth---Wonderfully put! You have captured the feeling of quiet and peace that I get walking the Jack Russell terriers (off leash) at night. Thank you. And I will think of you and Wavey when I walk tonight.

I've finished the book and very much enjoyed reading it.

I've got a few thoughts and a quote that I like to share. Here goes!

One of the characters I liked was Partridge who befriends Quoyle and brings him out of himself. Partridge also gets Quoyle his first reporting job and teaches him the ropes as to how to write his articles. I think that if it wasn't for Partridge helping Quoyle out with the job at the Mockingburg Record, he would never have gotten the reporter job at the Gammy Bird.

A not so likable character is Ed Punch who spots the submission in Quoyle and uses him. Punch does see one positive thing about Quoyle and it is this:

The truth was that Punch had noticed that Quoyle, who spoke little himself, inspired talkers. His only skill in the game of life. His attentive posture, his flattering nods urged waterfalls of opinion, reminiscence, recollection, theorizing, guesstimating, exposition, synopsis and explication, juiced the life stories out of strangers.

Marge, I think the Hitler boat provides an opportunity for it to be revealed that aunt Agnis is not just an upholsterer, but she is a yacht upholsterer since she gets the job of doing the upholstery work on the Hitler boat. Also I think it is there to show that when you live on an island, people sail in and after stopping a short while, sail on to other places.

All those stories of sexual abuse being written in the Gammy Bird every week; I wondered while reading how someone from Newfoundland felt when they read the book which makes it sound like pretty well everyone is involved in some type of sexual abuse. I think that this thing of the small newspaper going after the spectacular stories of that sort, warns us how newspapers and TV news as well, pick and choose what they will tell us and make things seem worse than they truly are.

The Aunt -Agnis- is a lesbian, although it is not said outright. But her saying that her friend was her 'significant other' indicates that they lived together not just as friends but as lovers. She doesn't tell Quoyle that her significant other was Irene Warren. Interesting that!

I'm enjoying everyone's thoughts on this book as much as I enjoyed the book itself.

THIS IS WONDERFUL! I LOVE ALL THESE POSTS COMING IN!

HATS:

Yes, there was something rather likeable about Billy Pretty, wasn't there? He was also a good source of information for Quoyle who knew so little about his ancestors before coming to Newfoundland.

MARYAL:

I was touched, also, by the emotion that Proulx caused while writing about the close-call Quoyle had with his daughter Bunny up on the rooftop. His intensity and genuine fear for her were starkly evident, and I think we all, as readers, breathed a sigh of relief when he gathered his daughter to his chest.

ELIZABETH:

Your enchanting story about the magic you feel when walking is not at all bizarre. Both you and Mary Page seem to have felt the same reactions while walking in certain areas, and I would be the last person to discount this. You both make it sound wonderful.

NELLIE:

Yes, Partridge is a very likeable character here. He certainly is a good friend to Quoyle, and one senses a genuine warmth there between Partridge and his wife, and Quoyle.

Does anyone else see any significance of the introductory knots before each chapter? I could relate to the first chapter, (Quoyle being a sort of doormat) but the meaning of all the other knots seems to elude me as we go on.

Lorrie

Lorrie, the introductory quotes eludes me too; However, I do remember one at the beginning of the chapter called "Wavey."

Chapter 14

"In Wyoming they name girls Skye. In Newfoundland it's Wavey."

I am thinking the girls are named Skye in Wyoming because of the spacious view of the sky. When I think of Wyoming, I think of big skies. Then, of course, there is the ocean in Newfoundland. I think of Newfoundland, and I think of waves and waves and more waves and boats.

I like Wavey, and I like her name too. Her inability to get over her husband's death is quite moving. She still remembers the exact date of his death. I hope Wavey can come to closure and find a place in her heart for Quoyle, but Quoyle can't seem to forget Petal, the woman who brought so much pain into his life. Both of them are fighting with ghosts from the past.

Your park sounds a treasure. Ours is not so grand--50 acres of abandoned ranch and orchard on a steep hill--creek and rain pools at the bottom. The top half has a mile of paved walk with 6 soccer fields, 2 volley ball courts, 3 tennis courts (no lights), 1 softball field and parking lots and restrooms. The lower half is wild except for wooden bridges over boggy spots, only dirt paths, wear boots in rainy season--(this is Northern Calif. and we don't have rain in the summer.) One almost always sees some wildlife but early in the morning is the best time to say 'howdy' to ferrets, weasels, squirrels, quail, partridge, owls, ravens, seagulls (the reflecting pond up top) blue heron (he was lost here for a month), snakes, rabbits, robins in season--(they come down for the winter), frogs--and the biggie: I used to walk there before the place was developed and one after-rain day I came across the imprint of a cats paw--bigger than a dinner plate. I went home to get my husband to show him, but by the time we got back some one had scooped it out--a scoop about a yard in diameter. Anyway, have loved telling about my park to someone who has never seen it. ....elizabeth

I forgot turtles!

Nellie and Lorrie - what I loved about Partridge was that he was able to see past Quoyle's big chin, his ungainly appearance, his shyness, and see the goodness within him. Their relationship felt REAL to me, one based on human beings appreciating one another without regard to external appearance, race, background, etc. I found much of the book to be uplifting in this way.

Were you all convinced early on - as I was - that Quoyle ultimately would succeed in life in some small way? I found myself liking him from the very start, and very much hoping for things to go well for him.

Yes, Sarah, and it seems that Partridge's loyalty doesn't end with Quoyle's move to Newfoundland. On page 290 Partridge calls Quoyle to tell him about the race riots in Los Angeles, and there is one part of his statement that I found chilling:

"There's no place you can go no more without getting shot or burned or beat. And I was laughing." And Quoyle thought he heard his firend crying on the other side of the continent. Or maybe he was laughing again.

Lorrie

Oh Sarah, Nellie and Lorrie, WAIT FOR ME!!! I am only on page 242! I have no idea what you are talking about!

Well, that's alright. I will not look in on any more posts. Then, I won't find out the end of the story. It's been fun.

Hats: Having read this book three times, I can tell you that knowing how it ends does not spoil the book. Each time I read it I learn more. Sharing it in this discussion will make my next reading even richer.

Thanks, Mrs. Watson.

Respecting our discussion of walking--Wavey's brother says, "Walking keeps you smart." E. Annie Proulx is fearless in her use of words, she uses them any way she wants: In someone's yard is a 'sawbuck in a litter of chips and...split junks of wood...' I guess she means a sawhorse and chunks of wood. And 'clits of wire' lie about; And: 'the scrawn of muscle built to last' to describe a visible trace of muscle; and Herry is a hang-ashore; Tert Card is a 'vitrid bugger' (vitrid relating to vitriol?). You believe her when she says "But his colorless eyes were warm." Quoyle was standing outside on a rainy day, his grey eyes reflecting sky and water, but one feels his deep, momentary contentment just because Proulx says his colorless eyes were warm. And how about this--In the dark of night, Quoyle "saw the sky rinsing with the nacre sheen of approaching light. The sea emerged as a silver negative." One last thing. The following must be an example of E. Annie's own thought process: The aunt says, "They should have burned them all." (old abandoned houses) and Quoyle immediately "thought of a thousand settlements afire in the wind, flaming shingles flying over the rocks to scale, hissing, into the sea." I fairly love this author. .......elizabeth

HATS:

I am so sorry you feel as though we are ahead of you in the book---I promise I will slow down a little for you. I assumed most of us had come close to the end if not actually finishing it, and I can see this was a wrong assumption. Please forgive me, Hats, and stay with us!

Thank you for your explanation, too, Mrs. Watson!

Lorrie

Elizabeth N points out one of the more endearing (to me) aspects of the novel: Proulx's use of ridiculous terms to describe objects around our characters: 'sawbuck in a litter of chips and...split junks of wood...' I guess she means a sawhorse and chunks of wood. And 'clits of wire' lie about; And: 'the scrawn of muscle built to last' to describe a visible trace of muscle; and Herry is a hang-ashore; Tert Card is a 'vitrid bugger'"

I find myself completely able to "go with the flow" of these terms somehow, which is, in my view, a tribute to how great a writer Proulx truly is. She clearly knows the language and how to use it, and goes beyond standard usage to come of with completely delightful turns of phrase. Those of you who read "Mating" by Norman Rush several months ago here may recall he did similar things, although not as much and perhaps not as beautifully. What do you all think of this aspect of Proulx's writing?

I'm also taken with how accidental everyone's lives seem to be in Newfoundland. Buggit, the Gammy Bird publisher, describes how he fell into the newspaper business because his other (ridiculous) jobs with Manpower Canada didn't work out. Quoyle sort of floated his way up to Newfoundland without plans, a place to live or (living) roots.

Lorrie, don't slow down. I am almost finished. I am keeping up with each post. Each note posted is helping me get more from the book. So, it all works out in the end.

I might not post, but I am still here enjoying every word.

Good for you, Hats! And Sarah, I think it's great how you have grasped the particular style of Proulx's writing. Some of our posters have said that the "choppy" manner of writing irritatied them somewhat, but most of us feel that once you become accustomed to the author's particular mannerisms it isn't really that disconcerting.

E. Annie Proulx is so original. I love her writing. Not a trite, or banal word in the whole book.

Lorrie

I've been reading Accordian Crimes, and the writing style is completely different. This is the tale of an accordian, made by an Italian craftsman and carried with him when he and his son immigrate to La Merica in the 1890's. The accordian passes from hand to hand over its 100 year life and, as it touches people, their stories are told. Since the accordian is an old world instrument, its tale is played out on the edge where the old world is merging into the new. EAP always ties up the loose ends, recounting their histories after the accordian has passed on to its next player. Along the way accordian music, masters, and other relevant trivia enriches the lively story. It was slow getting into, but it swept me along and it was quite an experience. The accordian itself is the thread, and this story lacked the focus that Quoyle provides for Shipping News, so none of the actors engaged my emotions the way that those salty Nefoundlanders did. I recommend this book as a good story, not great, but well worth the time.

Mrs. Watson I would like to read Accordion Crimes. It sounds interesting. I can not get over the fact that Quoyle has become managing editor of The Gammy Bird. He certainly has come a long way from the person we first met. He's a good guy and a smart one too.

I think Proulx uses a great deal of exageration in the book: the many, many sexual abuse stories and the chopped up body without a head in the suitcase. I have been wondering does she do this for a reason?

I get the idea that the Newfoundlanders do a lot of handwork. There is the mention of tatting, knitting, doilies and the painted wooden objects at Wavey's house.

I will finish the book today, but I will miss the people. They are very unique.

Lorrie and Sarah, the relationship between Partridge and Quoyle does seem "real." It's amazing that they still remember one another even though miles and miles separate them. Neither one of them is moved or changed negatively by the other's skin color. To experience a friendship with someone different than yourself is quite an experience, something never to be forgotten.

Poor Mercalia, she almost was killed on the highway. Race riots are very frightening and never accomplish anything. Well, any sort of random violence is meaningless.

Mrs. Watson, I think I found myself hoping for the same writing style when I picked up Accordian Crimes, and, not finding it, was frustrated during the entire book. (I had the same thing happen when I read the great Kazuo Ishiguro's Remains of the Day and The Unconsoled, and then read When We Were Orphans to great disappointment!) It's interesting that an author can almost set herself up for failure by developing such a quirky style and then abandoning it.

And HATS - you put your finger on it: one misses these characters, this book, their setting, their trials and tribulations and everyday lives, when the book ends. I have missed them for years, since I first read the book, and now that I have them back, I don't want them to go away!

What do you think motivated Proulx to write in this odd way? Is there something about Newfoundlanders' speech patterns perhaps that suggested this format? Who knows anything about Newfoundland?

The Gammy Bird as a newspaper is hilarious! The "near-libelous" gossip column is a scream. The misspellings, the proliferation of ads - it's all very unique and yet, as always, endearing. My grandfather was in the newspaper business and swore he'd do it for nothing, it was such a great life. These people truly seem they are enjoying their lives on the paper, don't you think?

The more I read about Newfoundland, as the author describes it, I get the feeling that it's more than just a setting for this story. Onto itself, it's a dreary yet engaging character. Does the cold weather and the rough life add to your enjoyment of the book?

In your opinion, which do you think were the most important relationships in the book? I know some of you won't agree, but I feel that the relationship between the Aunt and Quoyle is the most important. She has been with him from the beginning, and eventually shares in whatever good may have come to them later on.

Lorrie

Over in another folder, "The Curious Mind," Charlie is discussing an article written by a B R Myers, for Atlantic, on the "sorry" state of modern literature.

In the article he mentions E. Annie Proulx quite often. You might be interested in what he has to say:

READER'S MANIFESTO

Lorrie

I think the most important relationships are between Quoyle and Partridge. I feel this way because Partridge helped Quoyle to see that he could become a person with purpose. He helped and pushed him into the newspaper business which proved to be the right place or career for Quoyle. Plus, he was Quoyle's first friend.

I liked Aunt Agnis. She endured abuse and still, came out strong. She opened the upholstery shop, but I felt a little antsy because she kept the past from Quoyle. I could understand her feelings, but it left Quoyle feeling lost. She knew about Cousin Nolan, but she did not tell Quoyle about him. Unfortunately, Quoyle had to go pick up the pieces of Nolan's life. Another difficult task because Quoyle felt like he was helping a stranger.

Lorrie, thanks for the link.

Lorrie: You have hit on something so subtle, I missed it entirely. Agnis Provided Quoyle with steady support, something his life lacked (except for Partridge). Because of her steadiness, and her success at slogging on with things, he was able to slog as well, and lo, he began to succeed! Also subtle is the change in Bunny, from the acting out at the beginning, to the cooperative, caring partner at the end, shyly proud. Agnis steadiness, and Quoyle's increasing surety, allowed Bunny to begin to bloom. Agnis is the real foundation, not the house. Great insight, Lorrie. Thank you.

I could not read mored than 6 pages of the Readers Manifesto. Obviously B R Myers is a person so over-educated he cannot sit down and enjoy a good book. ...elizabeth

MRS. WATSON:

Well! What a vey nice thing to say! Yes, my admiration for the Aunt stayed with me all through the book, and I thought, like you did, that her influence with Quoyle was immeasureable. I also liked the way little Bunny flourished with Time, all in all, don't you think that moving to bleak, wind-swept Newfoundland was the best thing that could have happened to that whole family? I guess I'm a raw sentimentalist, but I do like stories that have a more positive ending, and this one seems to have just that!

ELIZABETH:

I laughed so when I read your post. I felt the same way when I read that article by that pompous Myers, and couldn't help thinking, "Who is this over-educated ass?" I had a brother who was an English professor, and who said on more than one occasion, "oh Lord, suffer me from so many of these "educated" fools!" Still true today!

Does anyone wish that Proulx could have written Jack Buggit's death a little differently? Some critics say that having him sit up in his own coffin, spouting water, having both drowned and not drowned is a forced invention in a novel that is otherwise replete with wonderfully natural ones. Do you agree?

Lorrie

Elizabeth, I have to agree with you whole-heartedly on what you just said.

To me the story is the thing in any book I read and when the author presents me with a good story, then I am not even aware of the writing style.

I was just skimming through the book to see how many people are supportive of Quoyle. We have: Patridge, Aunt Agnis, the folks at the Gammy Bird -Tert Card, Billy Pretty, B. Beaufield Nutbeem, Jack Buggit - the harbour master -Diddy Shovel -Dennis and his wife Beety, who help take care of Bunny and Sunshine, and of course Wavey. These were all people who accepted him as he was and believed in him.

I'm not sure where we are when it comes to talking about things in the book -I think we are now talking about the whole book?

NELLIE:

Yes, Nellie, because so many of our posters have finished reading this novel, some of them for the second time, we are discussing the book as a whole. Please post your thoughts on any particular character or event you wish, are there any parts at all you found to be more significant than others? We will be discussing the book and all its aspects until approximately the 10th of November.

There is one thing that I found a trifle disappointing. With all the suspense leading up to their mad relative, Nolan Quoyle, I felt tha the way the story ended with him was a bit anit-climatic. I think I expected something much more dramatic, but that's only my own opinion. What do you think?

Lorrie

Lorrie and Sarah, I really enjoyed this wonderful book. I will never forget Newfoundland or any of the strong people. When Jack woke up, I only felt happiness. What a surprise! He deserved more years, and it just made the ending of the book more wonderful. Thank goodness, Quoyle and Wavey were able to discuss their hurtful relationships and dispose of them and find each other.

Again, thanks to Lorrie and Sarah for being helpful and great discussion leaders.

Lorrie: I, too, felt that some of the more dramatic elements of the story were underplayed, Later, I realized that is the way real life is, the things you expect to be big deals kind of fizzle and something that seems small sneaks in and turns everything upside down.

I think I have to agree that Agnis and Partridge may have been the most influential characters in Quoyle's overcoming his lack of self-esteem and feeling of failure (and ugliness). However, Proulx develops each of the Newfoundland characters that he meets and she makes Quoyle's relationship with each of them very important too. The staff at the newspaper and others in Quoyle's new life are also very significant as Nellie pointed out. I think I was as astonished at Jack Buggitt's "death" being in the book as I was at the Hitler boat episode--this book is definitely different! You read along thinking you have an idea of what is going to happen--and suddenly something really bizarre happens. Marge

HATS,MRS. WATSON, AND MARGE:

One of the best features of the book, as I see it, is that same element of suspense that you mention, and i think it adds a great deal to the story.

I must say, all you people have been absolutely great, the way you have followed through on this discussion, and I can say without being maudlin that I have become very fond of you all. Bless you, dear Readers!

The next week we will be devoting to what our overall impressions of "The Shipping News" has been, and what sort of feeling it left you with when you read it.

Some reviewers described this novel variously as comic, pastoral, sentimental, moving, and a poetic triumph. How would you describe it to someone who has never read it? Would you recommend it to anyone else?

Lorrie

Nellie, you really made me think when you pointed out how many people ultimately supported (and befriended) Quoyle. He was truly lucky his life turned around as it did. Clearly, his goodness entitled him to a good life, but it's interesting that he was unable to find it in the U.S. I wonder if Proulx is giving us a commentary on the nature of life in America, and about how different things are - can be, whatever - in Canada. The two episodes of Quoyle's life are so night and day.

Hats/Lorrie/Mrs.W - I'm torn between the Aunt and Partridge as the best person in Quoyle's life. Somehow, I have to go with Partridge too, since he gave Quoyle a glimpse of what his life could be, got him into the news business (although I wondered how realistic it was for someone with NO experience to actually get a job on a paper - even a small one - does anyone know if this is at all possible??).

I'm with Lorrie - I love a book that is uplifting in the charming, irreverent, silly way of this book. It's not sickly sweet in the slightest; the language and characters are unique - no one is beautiful, nothing is "just so" and yet we see real people living happy lives. It makes me happy reading about them, honestly, and I can be quite the cynic!

Sarah, that is what I love. The people seem so "real." The people are so ordinary, earthy. I fell in love with all of them, the aunt, Partridge, Beety, the Bugits. I will never forget them. It's like Proulx took a snapshot of the people in our own neighborhood. Sarah writes, "no one is beautiful." That's what made the book special to me.

I have fallen in love with Newfoundland. Have you heard of Baltimore's Mansion by Wayne Johnston? I saw the title in the Quality Paperback Club. The synopsis:

"Brings to life three generations of men in the author's family, which made its home on the eerily beautiful island of Newfoundland. We meet Johnston's blacksmith-fisherman grandfather, Charles; his fiercely independent father, Arthur; and Wayne himself, who left Newfoundland behind to try to make his way as a writer."

I wonder if Johnston is capable of catching the Newfoundlanders as well as Proulx.

From the first time he saw Wavey walking along the road, I hoped that Quoyle and her would get together and find love with each other. Finally on the night when she brings him the seal flipper pie and stays the night, they do. I like how simply Proulx puts it:

"Herry's sleeping at Dad's," she said. "And I'm sleeping here." Breathless with running.

Real Newfoundland kisses that night, flavored with seal flipper pie.

And the final words of the book:

For if Jack Buggit could escape from the pickle jar, if a bird with a broken neck could fly away, what else might be possible? Water may be older than light, diamonds crack in hot goat's blood, mountaintops give off cold fire, forests appear in mid-ocean, it may happen that a crab is caught with the shadow of a hand on its back, that the wind be imprisoned in a bit of knotted string. And it may be that love sometimes occurs without pain or misery.

I enjoyed reading this book so much and liked the characters, specially Quoyle, a lot; thus I give it Five Stars *****.

Oh, Sarah, and Hats: You put it so well. It's possible to become endeared to characters in a book without being all sticky sweet and as Proulx tells us, none of them is beautiful in one sense of physical beauty, yet we learn to love them, warts and all.

In the sysnopsis of Johnstone's book, they call Newfoundland an "eerily beautiful island." Seems to fit with the vision I have formed from Proulx's book, doesn't yours?

NELLIE:

Wasn't that last part beautifully written? I, too, would give it 5 stars!! Anyone else?

Lorrie

There is one thing I truly regret about our discussion. As much fun as we've had, and as much as I've enjoyed talking about this fine book, it would have been so much nicer if we had all seen the movie version of the book, which isn't due out until the end of December. Oh, well, we can all see the movie and then really see how well Kevin spacey fits in as Quoyle.

The next upcoming Books/Movies, coming in January, will be easier to compare. We are going to do a discussion on Theodore Dreiser's classic book, "An American Tragedy," and a critique of the movie made from that book, starring Elizabeth Taylor and Montgomery Clift, called "A Place in the Sun."

This proposed discussion is listed on our Main Welcome Page, so if you have not already done so, please post in there if you are at all interested in joining in that discussion. I might add that the book is easily accessible at the library, and the movie video can be rented. It would be so nice to see all your welcome names there once again!

PROPOSED AMERICAN TRAGEDY

Lorrie

When I read that you would be discussing "The Shipping News", I went to the library and got the audio book. I read the book many years ago and gave my copy away long ago. I'm going to get another copy now and hang onto it. The audio book was very good because you got to hear the Newfoundland accent. The thing that amazes me about EAP's writing is her beautiful, lyrical descriptions of everything from a wave, a rock, a bird and of course the people. That's why you feel you know them so well. I agree that his Aunt and Partridge were a great help to Quoyle, but in the long run, I think he reached inside himself, because of the children, to find a better way of life.

Well, Joan, what you said about the audio tape of this book is really something I never thought much about, but I am going to get one just to hear the rendition of these actors' Newfoundland accents. It must be a hoot to hear them!

I like your comment about Proulx's writing, even if it's about "a wave, a rock, a bird, or of course, people!"

Lorrie

We made a trip to Newfoundland a few years ago and I fell in love with it. If I had a lot of money I would live there in the summers. Imagine seeing iceburgs just off shore. The only place name in the book that I recognized was Twillingate. I believe that is where the hospital was suppose to be.

I don't remember the accents but I do remember seal flipper pie. I took a bite from my husband's plate and didn't say anything then, but later I told him it was the worst thing I had ever eaten. It tasted like fishy beef. We also had cod cheeks and partridgeberry pie. Both were good.

I read the book after we got home and don't remember it well enough to comment except to say I really liked it.

Mary

Joan - I am definitely getting that audio book! Thanks for the recommendation. I don't know that I've ever heard the Newfoundland accent and am dying of curiousity.

What do you all think the knots mean at the start of each chapter. For awhile, I tried to fit each knot into the context of the chapter, but it didn't always work for me.

Did you notice how many of the characters had lives elsewhere? Nutbeem in Bahia, of course our wonderful Quoyle, aunt, and kids, can't recall the others. It's just odd to me that anyone would migrate to such a forbidding climate - and yet, at least in this book, they do. I wonder how realistic this is (and yet, don't you find yourself wanting to go there - if only to meet people as interesting and quirky as this lot!?)

Oh, I want to go there!

Nellie, you may perhaps remember that I said at the beginning of this discussion that my favorite line in the whole book was the last sentence. My daughter and I listened to the tape version on our way across the country by car, and both of missed that ending. It wasn't until she read the book and then showed me her copy that I noticed it. It had affected her deeply, (possibly because she was at the time starting and stopping relationships monthly LOL) but I still think it is such a touching sentence, (or non-sentence, as the case may be). " And it may be that love sometimes occurs without pain or misery."

Sarah, I don't have my book anymore, but the knots confused me. Yet, I wanted to desperately know the meaning of the knots. I know those headings would have added more to the story.

Mrs. Watson, I would love to go there, but I do wonder if I could bear such weather conditions. I am a native of the north, Pa. We never experienced these harsh conditions.

I relate to the island because of the fishermen. My father fished the coast of New Jersey all of my life. Sarah, relates to the Newspapermen because her father was a newspaperman. Each of us are relating to the story for our own personal reasons.

Lorrie, I can't wait to start American Tragedy. I have read the link about the murder case. Thanks for putting it there.

Sarah:

The meaning of the chapter headings from Ashley's Book of Knots escapes me, also. Except for the first chapter, the correllation between the "Quoyle" knot and the "walked on" part of his character, as it was then. Beyond that, I'm afraid I lost the meaning.

I think each of us came away from reading this book with many different perceptions. I can only say, from my own feelings, that I enjoyed the book, choppy writing and all, and fell in love immediately with all those wondrous characters.

Do you think this novel deserved the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction? Do you think this book will become a classic? What did you think was the strongest element of this book----the writing style, the characters, the setting, the plot, or something else?

And what was the weakest element?

HATS:

I am so glad you'll be joining us in "An American Tragedy!" Anyone else?

Lorrie

To me the strongest element, or should I say elements? in the book were the characters. Some I found to be sympathetic (if that is the right word?) like Quoyle, Aunt Agnis, Bunny, and all the Newfoundlanders (they used to be called Newfies; but I'm not sure if that is considered politically correct). Some like Quoyle's father, brother and Petal were less sympathetic. But no matter if I liked or disliked them, I could understand the characters in the book.

I think that I said before that I spent part of a holiday (about ten days) in Newfoundland in the autumn and the weather was lovely and not at all as bad as the book makes it out to be. Don't forget that paying a visit is different from moving there to live. So those of you who have a desire to visit Newfoundland: go for it!

You're right, Nellie - Petal. She was absolutely awful. I remember the first time I read this book thinking I couldn't go on with it after the first chapter. Quoyle's life was so bleak, Petal so abusive, it seemed a pointless story. I could not have predicted how the story - and Quoyle's life - would change. Did you find it realistic that a man such as Quoyle would put up with Petal?

Nellie and Sarah, I did find Petal unrealistic. I know there are unfit mothers and promiscuity, but Petal seems too extreme. However, I think it is realistic that a person so unloved as Quoyle might accept love from anyone who looked his way. Wavey accepted an unloyal love too, but her husband seemed more real to me. Maybe I find it easier to see a man as tripping from one bed to another rather than a woman. I totally can not accept the idea that a woman would sell her children, hard to accept or believe as truth.

Sarah, I think that Quoyle put up with Petal because he loved her and that I think is realistic. But he is so blinded by his love for her that he does not see that she does not love him; and in a way I think that she hates him for loving her.

HATS, I was thinking the same thing about Petal, that she is unrealistic as a character. There seems to be nothing good about her. Yet even the most 'nasty' person will have good aspects. I found the selling of her children by her to be quite believable because I think things like that do happen in real life -think of the woman who drowned her two children in the car because her boyfriend did not want them. I just wonder why we are never shown the 'good' part of Petal?

Petal is hardly IN the book. I don't have it to hand at the moment, but she is outta there after the first few chapters. How could she be fully developed? It seems to me that she only drew breath in order to show us how little self-esteem Quoyle had--and of course, to provide him with Bunny and Sunshine.

The wonderful thing about this book for me--other than the writing, which I really like--is the believably Happy Ending of which there are few in contemporary fiction. Quoyle's bad life lies mostly outside the novel. Once he gets to Nova Scotia, things are on the rise and he finds himself and his family. And Wavey of course.

Wavey carries wounds that are very like Quoyle's and thus they are made for each other. Both have been betrayed, and we can be pretty sure that they will NOT betray each other.

An aside---I've never been to Nova Scotia, but I know quite a lot about small communities in Maine and strange speech habits. It's my guess that Proulx is hitting pretty close to the mark here. Small isolated communities have much that is unpleasant going on.

Maryal, you know, I had forgotten or did not want to think about the fact that "small isolated communities have much that is unpleasant going on." I like to think of small communities as friendly, clean and wholesome. Forget about it!! Remember Peyton Place?

Nellie, I had forgotten that too, the woman who drowned her two children and the woman just recently who drowned all five!!!! My convenient memory has been working overtime. Oh gross, what goes on behind doors can be unthinkable and too painful to leave in our thoughts. That is one reason I was sooo glad that Petal was removed early in the book. Her life was too depressing.

Maybe Proulx wanted readers to get rid of their idealistic thoughts about small communities. She made us think about sexual abuse, the murdered man in the suitcase), miserable marriages, etc.

I think the book won the prizes because of the honesty, the truth factor.

To sum up my overall impressions about Shipping News: This has become one of my read-it-again-every-few-years books. When next I open its covers, I will have so many new thoughts, new things to look for, after sharing this discussion with all of you. My enjoyment will be so much richer as I reach a landmark (bookmark?) inspired by your comments, and my own increasing awareness of EAP's genius. About the knots, all I know is that I want a copy of that book! So much quiet wisdom tied up in the explanations of those lovely pieces of rope lace!

I have sent notices, for those interested in continuing to receive it to REPLY .... since email addresses come and go are changed and boxes get full.

But I have not heard from a lot of people who post here regularly or the lurkers that are here.

SO .... if you still want Book Bytes.....
Click on my name.
Click on my email address
Send me an email with Book Bytes in the subject line
And I will add your name to the new list.

Mrs. Watson - I'm with you - I'll probably always want to reread this book. It is so unique and special.

So, HATS and Maryal - do you think Petal was just a device, a counterpoint, for what happened later in Quoyle's life? I hadn't thought about that before. My original reaction to her was that Proulx was smart enough to realize the reader could not have stood much more of the terrible life Quoyle was leading, so she only gave us that chapter in bits.

Attention, Everyone!

If you are not now receiving our "Book Bytes," please follow Pat's instructions in Post #200 above!

Lorrie

Sarah, I feel the same way about this book. I believe that I will be rereading it, and with the same amount of enjoyment that I felt when I first began. This is a rare thing with me. I hang on to so few books.

Lorrie

We have had a very dedicated, thoughtful, and very loyal group here talking about this book. I know I have enjoyed this discussion tremendously, and it certainly helped that we all seemded to like the book so much. It's too bad we didn't have a basis to compare it with the movie, but we can all see that when it comes out, and see if they live up to Proulx's colorful characters!

I've written some of you to thank you, but if I missed anyone, please forgive me and sentence me to a summer somewhere in Newfoundland. Maybe I'll run into Quoyle coming out of the office of that thriving new newspaper! Thank you all so much! You're the greatest!

Lorrie

This page will be kept open for several days before archiving, should anyone care to comment further.

Lorrie

Some final questions I'd be interested in hearing your input on:

Do you think Quoyle's life could have improved without moving to Newfoundland? Was there something particular about the place -and his ancestral tie to it - that made his life "work" there?

Are there any mistakes Quoyle made once he moved to Newfoundland that you wished he hadn't made?

Do any of these characters remind you of people you actually know - especially if you live in a small town. I am and always have been a big city girl, and it's always hard for me to know if the portrayals of small town folk are believable. I WANT to believe they are accurate - you tell me!

What do you think is in the future for Bunny and Sunshine?

How do we get the rest of the world to love this book as much as you all seem to?!!??!!

Sarah---Yes, some of the Mainers I know resemble parts of the Newfoundlers in this novel. They are an ironic, eccentric bunch, at least some of them. And very individualistic and hard to describe.

As to whether or not Quoyle had to move to Newfoundland, I don't think so, but I DO think that it helped him to start over in a sparsely populated area that was used to "characters." He doesn't seem especially strange to the folks there. His Aunt is also extremely important to his recovery as she serves as family and link to the past. Could they have made it somewhere else--yup I think so, but Proulx wanted Newfoundland so she gave them roots there.

I have lived in the city--grew up in Chicago--as well as Maine and the contrast was most beneficial to me. Now, places are more alike than they used to be. When we moved to Maine when I was fourteen, it was a whole different culture from Chicago. I speak in terms of styles and clothing and language. I remember feeling that I had moved to a foreign country. Maine accents also used to be way more pronounced than they are now. The effect of television and movies has been profound.

Thank you, Lorrie, for this wonderful discussion of a book that I love. Thank you to everyone who participated. It always helps me to see things from a different angle when I read your "takes."

I guess that should be "Newfoundlanders" in the post above. ooooops.

COuld Q have been reborn without moving to Newfoundland? I think not. He had faced life long rejection from his family, his peers (except Partridge) and his wife. When he returned to Newfoundland, he found himself to be accepted as one more of the Quoyle family, no more no less. Agnis was his support here, the slow release of the family history allowing him to adopt his heritage piece by piece. Even his chin was a family trait and not one more example of the unfitness of (what was his first name?) Quoyle. Also, good buddy Partridge helped by calling on his network of newspaper contacts and finding Q a real job in a real newspaper, something he had earned by his experience and all on his own. Other places he might have moved to would have required him to make his own way, and he was ill-prepared for that. No, it took the unique qualities of that particular Newfoundland milieu for Quoyle to find himself.

MARYAL, AND SARAH:

When we were living in the "boonies" of northwest Wisconsin, the small town area in which we live had "characters" not unlike the ones in Proux's book. The big difference I could see was that the local people there resented newcomers fiercely, and we were never made to feel really at home----always outsiders. It was very difficult to overcome that homemade resentment, and I used to despair over the lack of interest in anything beyond the County line.

MRS. WATSON:

I agree. I don't think Quoyle could have found any kind of happiness if he hadn't moved to Newfoundland. It was almost as though that place was the pivot on which his new contentment and regard for his work turned.

I loved this book and will not hesitate to recommend it to anyone.

Lorrie

SarahT wrote: "Do any of these characters remind you of people you actually know - especially if you live in a small town. I am and always have been a big city girl, and it's always hard for me to know if the portrayals of small town folk are believable. I WANT to believe they are accurate - you tell me!"

My husband and I retired to a small town and that's when I discovered that I'm really a city girl! It seems that everywhere you go, you meet the same people. I started a book discussion group here, hoping to meet some new people, but ended up with the same people I already knew!

I read "The Shipping News" several years ago and can't comment on the specific characters, but it's true that when you move to a small town, you are always conscious of the fact that you are a newcomer... and an outsider. People tend to be very clannish and it takes a strong person to endure the first feelings of being a newbie so that one can finally think of oneself as part of the "clan". I wasn't able to endure the feelings. So I withdrew and made my own life outside of the "clan".

Hopefully, the insight that it takes a long time to be accepted, will help me to try again to feel part of the clan. I had quit my own book club, but am now going back to it, trying to fit in with all the very different personalities.

Rita Russ...new here and hoping to be accepted into the clan...(g)

I was quickly skimming a few of the posts here regarding the choice of Kevin Spacey in the lead part of "The Shipping News". I have confidence that he will be very good. He always is. He is a gifted mimic and he is able to assume almost any personality he wants to. I saw him do this in his interview at the Actor's Studio on the Bravo TV Channel.

As an aside, I'd like to mention that when I read the book,"Nobody's Fool", I automatically pictured Jack Nicholson as "Sullie" (I *think* that was the character's name.) Nicholson seemed the obvious choice if there was to be a movie. When they cast Paul Newman in the lead as "Sullie", I was very disappointed. Paul Newman played the part without the animation which Jack Nicholson would have given it. I thought of Sullie as an animated, lively character with a twinkle in his eye...Jack Nicholson! I love Paul Newman, but to me he is not Sullie, even though he has his own kind of "twinkle". (g)

I used to ask people at online book discussions if they had thought of Jack Nicholson as they read the book. When they said they hadn't, I was always surprised and disappointed. It was so-o-o obvious to me!

Do you ever involuntarily picture an actor in a certain part as you read a book? This was the only time it had ever happened to me. I find that so strange.

Rita Russ

Rita, a big WELCOME to SeniorNet and the books discussions!. This one is wrapping up, but there are many more. I appreciated what you said about moving to a small town. Been there, done that, and good for you for searching out for yourself. If you are friendly and outgoing, those folks will eventually accept you, maybe even become good friends. You just can't ever tell.

I agree with you that Kevin Spacey can do this role (or has already done it since I think the film must be finished now, although not yet released). I love this novel and am looking forward to a good film. I hope they kept both daughters and that the many characters come to life as they do in the book.

Maryal

Rita - Welcome! You're right about Spacey - he's brilliant and will do a great job, I'm sure. However, I picture a John Lithgow type whenever I think of Quoyle.

Jack Nicholson?? That's amazing. I never would have pictured him. However, I read the book AFTER seeing the movie, and I must have been brainwashed by it, because I found the Paul Newman choice perfect, and found it easy to picture him as I read the book. Great book, by the way - love Russo!

I am a native San Franciscan and occasionally consider moving away to escape the high home prices, but probably would be a fish out of water anywhere else. I have a friend who moved a year ago to upstate New York and she too found a group of "outsiders" to hang out with because the locals weren't welcoming. What is it about people?

One of the other phenomena I was thinking about while (lovingly) looking over The Shipping News this weekend is how common it is in Newfoundland (and, I'm sure, other Maritime communities) to lose friends and family at sea. I wonder what it would feel like to be surrounded by something that threatens to claim your loved ones at its whim?

Sarah T: Speaking of being surrounded by the threatening sea, I read a story about a Japanese fishing village where all the house walls facing the sea were windowless. And welcome Rita Russ. I am new here myself and have not been made to feel an outsider at all, at all.

Elizabeth N - now that's fascinating. Windowless because windows couldn't begin to hold the sea back? Or because they were welcoming the sea into their homes?

WELCOME, RITA, WELCOME!

I can certainly relate to what you said about being a newcomer in a small town, and I did exactly what you did to find like-minded readers.

Yes, I think we all, at some time or other, read a book and mentally pair off some of the characters with Hollywood stars, I remember how disappointed I was to learn that Vivien Leigh was going to play Scarlett, ( I had thought it should be Paulette Goddard, remember her?) How wrong I was!

Your comment about the movie version made me think that perhaps you might be interested in joining us in January in a discussion of Theodore Dreiser's novel, "An American Tragedy?" This is the story on which the movie, "A Place in the Sun" was based, with Elizabeth Taylor and Montgomery Clift. Please post in this clickable site and let us know how you feel about participating. We would love to see your name there!

AMERICAN TRAGEDY

Lorrie

This has been a really wonderful discussion of a joyful book. I was afraid, when I first started it, that I would find this novel depressing and somewhat "down," but I must say it left me with a comfortable feeling. I hope you all enjoyed it as much.

This has been a very "nice" group here. I say the word "nice" to mean the courteous, intelligent, insightful comments that were made all through the discussion, and I am extremely proud of you all. I hope we made some new friends, Elizabeth and Rita, especially, and we both, Sarah and I, hope to see you all again!

This discussion will be archived, but comments can still be made for a short time. Bless you all!

Lorrie

Sarah T: I guess you won't see this as the discussion is to be archived, but my take on windowless walls to the sea was that the inmates did not want to be constantly reminded of the element that caused past personal tragedy or current threat. Will we ever have a Northern Calif. bash do you think? Too old myself to organize one. .......elizabeth

No, no, Elizabeth, please keep on commenting! I meant only that this discussion will be archived only when the posts have ceased, and then will still be open in a different spot.

How i wish we could organize a Northern California Bash! Personally, I would love to see California again after almost 40 years. And isn't it nice that Sarah has room in her new house for 100 of us, with breakfast thrown in? (hahahahahaha!)

But still, give some thought to our Washington plans, sometime this coming Spring!

Lorrie

We are definitely going to California, we in the Books for a Bookfest in 2003, and certainly we will expect to see our own fabulous Sarah!

Stay tuned for more details, we're waiting for Laura Bush and the Library of Congress to announce the new dates of the National Book Festival in 2002, in Washington DC.

And we hope when we do get out to California you all will come!

ginny

Rita!! Welcome! You have certainly come to the right place and I can tell from reading your posts we will love to see more of you, this is wonderful!

Elizabeth, are you new, too, you seem to be so "one of us" I feel I have known you forever!

This is a great place for all readers, and we're so glad you are all here!

ginny

My goodness! What a wonderful welcome! Thanks to all of you: Maryal, Sarah, Elizabeth, Lorrie and Ginny!

I see that you've mentioned John Lithgow and John Goodman as possible actors who could have starred in "The Shipping News". Yes, I can see either of them in the part. Definitely NOT John Travolta though. I wonder how they'll handle that chin problem. Will they extend Kevin Spacey's chin? LOL

Lorrie mentioned the upcoming discussion of "An American Tragedy". I've never read it and I'm wondering how difficult a read it is. I'll have to confess that I'm not into reading books which one has to plow through. I managed to get through Byatt's "Possession", but only because there was a bit of a mystery in it, which was the "hook" which kept me reading. I'm glad I did stick with it till the end because the ending made it all worth while. (But I skipped over the Victorian poetry with all the esoteric mythical references! LOL) I think I'm getting lazy lately about "plowing" through dense prose these days.

However, I do want to expand my horizons. So perhaps I'll find the needed energy and motivation here in this group. I hope so. I'll check out the Dreiser discussion which you mentioned, Lorrie. Thank you for the invitation.

Rita, still wondering about the chin...LOL

Rita - We discussed Possession here awhile back and I seem to recall that about halfway through the discussion, people began "confessing" that they were skipping the poetry. For those who had been plowing through it in agony, there was such a sense of liberation after that - what, I don't HAVE to read every word?

Yes, Sarah, Byatt's book taught me that skimming was a way to survive! LOL

Rita

Manchurian Candidate is play8ng on TV right now. I propose that we consider that one for a book/movie discussion. FrankSinatra is the last person I would have forcast in that role, but he was very good. Kevin Spacy's picture, in one of those knit caps sailors wear, illustrated an article about Potential Oscar movies, and he had his own chin!

RITA:

Yes, that chin! I see what you mean, and we can only hope that with the magic of make-up they can get Kevin Spacey close enough to Proulx s description! (hahaha)

The book, "An American Tragedy, is actually based on a real-life murder mystery that happened years ago in upper New York State, called Murder in the Adirondacks, We are going to compare the book along with the movie version, and it should be fun! Do come and join us! And in the meantime there are so many more wonderful pages to choose---this is a real potpourri of literary tastes, you'll see. If you like non-fiction, we're also going to be doing a discussion on jury trials, etc. Check out the upcoming discussions in the Index on our Welcome page! It's so nice to see new faces here, figuratively speaking!

MRS. WATSON:

I loved that movie "Manchurian Cadidate," and believe it or not, it is on our list of possible future Books/Movies suggestions. Yes, I was horrified when I learned Sinatra was going to be doing that part, but as it turned out he was really quite good. Thanks for the reminder.

Lorrie

Actually, I prefer fiction, but I'll keep watching the discussion announcements. One never knows where curiosity may lead.

This "Books & Literature" section of Seniornet seems to be a good "heads-up" operation. Folks must be working very hard to make it so. My hat's off to you!

Rita

BabsNH mentioned a while ago (in Sept.) that there was a certain line in the book that was pointed out to her. The line was special. May I ask what that line was? Thanks.

I'd like to go back to my notes and see if I copied that line down as I was reading. I usually do write down the lines which impress me. That's what takes me so long to read a good book. (g) Since I get my books from the library, I can't highlight or underline.

Rita

RITA:

Good for you! I had completely forgotten Babs' tantalizing post at the beginning of this discussion! Yes, BabsH, if you are lurking, please tell us what that line was? Now we're all intrigued!

Lorrie

Rita - I'm a library buff too. I too am intrigued! Should I go back through the posts and find the line - was it included? BabsNH, are you out there. . . out there . . . out there??

I checked back to the early posts, and found Post #11 from BabsNh who mentioned something about the last line of the book:

"For if Jack Buggit could escape from the pickle jar, if a bird with a broken neck could fly away, what else might be possible? Water may be older than light, diamonds crack in hot goat's blood, mountaintops give off cold fire, forests appear in mid-ocean, it may happen that a crab is caught with the shadow of a hand on its back, that the wind be imprisoned in a bit of knotted string. And it may be that love sometimes occurs without pain or misery."

Is this magnificent writing, or what? And there is mention of the "knotted string," thereby tying up (forgive the pun) all the beginnings of the Ashley Book of Knots. Wonderful!

Lorrie

I'm glad that everyone agrees about the last line of the book, to me it was profound writing, it touched my soul. Didn't have a clue if others would see it that way, as my daughter and I did. I, for one, cannot wait for this movie to come out.

Thank you for researching this for me.

I went back to my notes and sure enough, that last sentence was scribbled there. I had copied it down into my notebook: "And it may be that love sometimes occurs without pain or misery."

I hadn't copied down the lovely sentence which came just before the last one. Thanks, Babs, for pointing it out.

Do you think Proulx is saying that it's impossible to love without pain? For, after all, you can't imprison the wind in a bit of knotted string, and a bird with a broken neck can't fly away.

This concept of pain being part of love seems to be a running theme in literature. I found the following two quotes:

"For each ecstatic instant We must an anguish pay In keen and quivering ratio to the ecstasy." -Emily Dickinson

"In reality, in love there is a permanent suffering which joy neutralizes, renders virtual, delays, but which can at any moment become what it would have become long earlier if one had not obtained what one wanted, atrocious." -Marcel Proust (1871-1922), French novelist

That last quote is a doozy to figure out, but it makes sense if you parse the sentence. (ggg)

(Note that the word "virtual", as used in the quote, means: "potential, not currently acting"; or "imminent". The word in French was probably "virtuel", I was told.)

This information comes from another discussion I had online once about the quote.

Hope you love quotes as much as I do. Sorry to have gone on so.

Rita

Oh, Rita, you take my breath away - beautiful post! I think - hope - Proulx is telling us that the impossible is possible.

Rita---I'll have to parse that wonderful quote some more, but I believe that Proulx argues in her very last sentence that YES it is possible that love can be without an accompanying pain. I don't think she claims that LIFE will be without pain, but that LOVE, when it is "right," as it is between Wavey and Quoyle who have both suffered mightily and therefore gained a certain self-knowledge, can be without pain.

Shakespeare in a sonnet said of Love, "Love is not love that alters when it alteration finds, nor bends with the remover to remove." O dear, I sink deeper into the swamp.

To try again: Love without pain FROM that love rather than from the circumstances of life (ie. we all die; accidents happen) can--and does--occur.

Maryal

Sarah: I'd like to think that the impossible is indeed possible. But alas...

Maryal: Thank you for those lines from the Shakespeare sonnet. I can understand the part which says: "Love is not love that alters when it alteration finds", but I don't understand the part which says: "nor bends with the remover to remove."

Can anyone explain that?

Rita, trying to imagine a love which not only is without pain, but also ameliorates the pain which comes from the "circumstances of life"...hmmmmmmm...I always try to ask for more than I can get...LOL

Rita---I think the second line from the sonnet refers to a love which holds up even though "outside parties" may be attempting to defeat it. I imagine an unnamed adversary to the love.

As for believing that the love we have been discussing is Possible, I know that it is, having experienced it. Before my experience, however, I'm not sure I would have. I think I was incredibly blessed to have experienced what I did.

Maryal: Thanks for your explanation. It makes sense.

The quote in question: "Love is not love that alters when it alteration finds, nor bends with the remover to remove."

The "remover" would be the "outside party" who tries to "remove" the love between two people. I believe this party is sometimes called "the other woman". (I once saw a boat with that name! LOL)

I guess the only way to "know" that this type of love is possible, is to experience it. You are a lucky lady.

I know it's possible between parents and children and grandparents and grandchildren, but the jury is still out when it comes to romantic love, as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps there are many varieties of love and the one which Shakespeare speaks of is the most sublime.

Rita, who remembers her mom saying..."You can't always have the best cut of the cake."

Maryal's subject-title was:

"Full Courage Now, As Always"--sermon title--my father

On the subject of courage, I have the following quotes:

"Courage is not limited to the battlefield...The real tests of courage are much deeper and quieter. They are the inner tests...like enduring pain when the room is empty, like standing alone when you're misunderstood." -------------Charles R. Swindoll, "Growing Strong in the Seasons of Life"

"Nothing splendid has ever been achieved except by those who dared believe that something inside of them was superior to circumstance." ---Bruce Barton

"Coraggio!", the Italian word for courage ---my mom used to say this to me...

Rita

Your mother used to say "coraggio" to you. Think how wonderful that would look beneath your name on Senior Net. To get it there, if you would like, go to your "Preferences," the sixth button on the row of buttons above that begins with "Check subscriptions."

When you get to preferences, you will see the information you entered when you registered.

When you get to Preferences, scroll down until you get to Personal Information. The sixth item down is where you can put something you want to appear in bold type under your name.

Try it; see if it works!

Maryal

I think it would not be too presumptuous right now to declare that this discussion is about to be archived. It has been a wonderful month, and I enjoyed participating with all of you!

Incidentally, you may still post in the Archives, if you so desire.

Lorrie

Thanks Lorrie and all; I think it was a lovely discussion.

Maryal, Thanks for the instructions. I'll try it just this once.

Lorrie, thanks for the wonderful guidance here.

Rita

That was fun. Thank you Maryal!

I've changed it back to the way it had been because I noticed that "Coraggio" was showing up on all my previous posts everywhere!

And I guess when you cancel it, it's retroactive as well. Live and learn! LOL

Rita

Rita---Congratulations to you! Yes, unfortunately when you change what goes in that second line it is retroactive to all your previous posts. Same thing happens when the Headers in Discussions are changed. When the old one is gone, it's gone.

I don't know enough of the technical language to explain this phenomenon, but clearly you have the idea!

Dear Lorrie: I thank you for opening this opportunity to share in this delightful discussion. Little did I dream, when setting out, that my appreciation for and understanding of Shipping News would be so enhanced! It has now joined my reread-every-three-years-or-so list, along with Jane Austen, particularly Emma, and Wallace Stegner, particularly Angle of Repose. Also on my list are Robert Frost, Emily Dickinson, and the chronicles of Pern.