Stones from the River ~ Ursula Hegi ~ 12/97 ~ Book Export

WOW. So many great points. Jumping in with both feet:

Like Ella, I'm wondering about the pay libraries. Have never heard of this. HAVE heard of the raking of dirt outside the door, in fact, you all may know it's an old Southern custom, and until quite recently considered the "thing" to keep a well raked bit of dirt, not lawn, in some parts of this area. Must have been German immigrants and their influence; too concidental for anything else.

From Ros's explanation of "magic realism:" the glossy musicals of the Depression era could be one manifestation of this idea?? And I've thought about LJ's idea, too. Never DID understand Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

Russ brought up two things that have been nagging at me: the mother saying people die if you don't love them enough. So it seems to me that she felt unloved?? Even though Leo was such a saint to carry the burden??

And, is she a symbol? And if so, of what? Are they all symbols?

Sharon has mentioned the stones, and so did Ros. There seemed to me to be a great deal of symbolism here...there are the stones, and what DO they symbolize, and then the "stories" and "covering up" and "lying." that people do to protect themselves.

I find myself wondering:

<1>WHY start the book with the insane mother? What was the purpose of that? Why is she there at all? When you've finished the book, you wonder.

<2> What was it like in America (I'm going to take America as a counterpoint as that's, I guess, what I know best) at the same time? What, for instance, percentage of homes in America had electricity in 1914? Does anybody happen to REMEMBER?? Where can I find this information, cause, like Jimmie, I do think the environment here is strange.

Since Sharon and Jimmie can both "see" Trudi, I'm going back and reread the first 54 pages and try again.

And I did promise Joan Pearson I'd keep my posts SHORT!! But so much to say on this thing. GREAT JOB, ROS!!

Ginny

Ginny,

In 1930, 90% of the Urban Households in the USA had electricity. Rural areas did not have it until later with the REA(Rural Electrification Administration)coming into being with F Roosevelt's New Deal. I have no idea how many had it in 1914. With the advent of the steam engine the production of electricity was possible on a large scale. Electric lighing was made cheap and accessible with the invention,by Thomas Edison, of the incandescent light bulb around 1879. Things began to happen at an amazing rate of speed after this. I imagine that there was good bit of electricity in US cities in 1914. Sorry I can't give you an specific places to find out the percentages. You might find it in an encyclopedia.

Sorry my knowledge of electricity is so superficial.

Joan

Ginny, the figures for 1914 didn't appear, but in 1912 it was 15.9% and by 1917 had jumped to 24.3. This information is available in the Statistical Abstract of the U.S., an uptodate version of which is prob. available locally and might even be on the Web. The tricky part is figuring out just how to search, esp. the very small print in our edition at home.

More later, off to spend time in yet another medical waiting room, accompanied by Stones and a notebook.

Ros

Ginny, the reference that Ros mentions is on the Web but I believe that you have to download it to read it. I tt can be found at Statistical Abstract of the U.S

Joan

Oh, fabulous, thank you both so much! I'm so interested in common things so I can better understand the environment that I'm reading about.

Ginny

Thanks to Jimmy for the clarification and quote regarding Trudi's paternity! Perhaps Gertrude was admitting her affair/infidelity to Trudi. To a two or three year old child??

Sharon, what my question means is that beyond the academic and technical questions, to what extent can we see ourselves in the people portrayed; can we relate to their feelings and experiences?

Russ

Thanks, Russ, for clarifying it. I will have to think a little more and respond later. Sharon

I find that the title "Stones from the River" has an overtone of mystery to it . Could the stones by sombolic of all the secrets and oddities of the community.

Yes, I have a clear image of Trudi at this point. Although I believe that more characteristic traits will appear as the story develops.

I'm amazed at Trudi's ability, at the age of 2, to create an image of her mother on a motorcycle with hair blowing in the wind , as she does when her mother tells her of her escapade with Emil Hesping while Leo Montag was away at war. I don't believe Trudi saw any sexual encounter in her mind. It was just a story to help her understand her mother's anguish and fear in this secret. (After all she is only 2). While reading this, I could help but think that the author could have been a little more realistic here and put herself into thinking like a child when she wrote this part of the novel.

Beatrice

Beatrice, you've touched on one of the most baffling aspects of this book, one which frankly nagged at me all the time during my first reading a year or so ago. In these first chapters the character "Trudi"--and I'm putting it that way to remind myself that this was not a real person--displays almost none of the attributes we associate with young children (except her tendency to barf unexpectedly at embarrassing moments). Hegi represents "Trudi" as thinking like an adult, behaving like an adult, and experiencing flashbacks and flash-forwards that extend outside the time boundaries of the story itself. By the time "Trudi" starts school she seems to be more mature than we'd expect any 6-year-old to be. This is so noticeable that I have to wonder whether Hegi used "Trudi" as a kind of disembodied, omniscient narrator, not only part of the story but also a personage who could see, understand, remember, and predict everything.

Do you think the author really wanted her to be seen as nothing more than a little kid? (Maybe she was something like the chorus in the ancient Greek plays?)

There's a little touch of reality in the way "Trudi" assumes a maternal attitude toward her disturbed and despairing mother. The child of emotionally distraught parents is, in fact, often forced into this role, but he or she still thinks and acts as a child in other ways.

This problem may be central to our better understanding of the whole novel. It would be great to read other opinions supporting, opposing, or expanding.

Ros

I'm not convinced that Leo is the father - although I know the book talks of the episode on the fur coat as "conceiving Trudi." But I thought when I was reading it that perhaps that was what Leo thought or what the author wants you to believe at this point in the book. You cannot pinpoint conception as one night - Leo's wife could have conceived the night before with Emil.

Oh, dear, I believe in "magic realism" - or want to believe in it possibly. I loved Jonathan Livingston Seagull simply because you COULD NOT UNDERSTAND it. We all put our own interpretations on it, you see. What a bare world it would be if we understood everything!! Although it is a bit daunting that the author would have us believe this child can be so mature in her thought processes at times. Isn't this known as the "sixth sense" of the blind, the mute or other deformed people? (However, not to this extent) And while I'm speaking of deformities, I think most of us have some deformity or another, only not as visible as poor Trudi's. Deformities of the spirit, of the mind, of the heart, whatever.

Russ - I was puzzled at first by your "realm of reality" but you later explained it as "relating to the feelings of these characters." Yes, I can do that at times - the "Hurt" Trudi feels being shunned by other children - a lot of us have been shunned for some reason or other at times, don't you think? The tenderness Leo feels toward his small daughter. I know there are others I can't think of now.

A few additional (too long I know, sorry), I can picture Trudi as I have seen dwarfs before (altho adult dwarfs). Leo is a lady killer - surely he must remarry later in the book?

Enjoyed all the comments - Ella

Hey, y'all! Beatrice, Ros and Ella! You are getting into the "meat" of it. Thanks for perceptive and thoughtful comments!

Russ

Hi Folks,

This is the first time I've been on with you but here goes. It's all new but I'm going to take the plunge. I hope to surface.

I liked the questions. The title set me to to thinking. If it had been Stones in the River it would have brought on images of a ripple effect, and then stones immobile at the bottom with a smooth surface above. There would also be a ripple effect to retrieve them From the River though. The gravel in Gertrude's knee was only pebble size. Was that it? Were they the stones? Are the stones from the river things that are hidden beneath the smooth surface?

Was Trudi's precocious ability to see the past (her mother's relationship with Emil) and the future (WWII atrocities) the magic realism? Apparently magic realism has evolved beyond German fiction as I was more clear about it in Toni Morrison's Beloved.

A couple items I noticed were that the Jews were somewhat isolated at Trudi's mother's funeral. Also three birth defects were mentioned. Frau Doktor Rosen had a birth defect (cleft palate though no apparent speech impediment) and Frau Blau had the crooked finger from birth that Trudi thought was due to her committment to dusting, and then of course Trudi herself. Indeed as you've said we all have some type of deformity.

Well I look forward to your thoughts.

Di

Dianne, welcome to the BC. To answer your speculative questions--all of the above! As we move through the novel we'll find other instances in which actual stones from the Rhein play some part in the action, as well as references to stones as a figure of speech.

As Ella has pointed out in an earlier message, we're all conscious of some personal deformity in ourselves as well as in others. Hegi doesn't really give us many detailed descriptions of how the characters looked; yet, as you perceptively remarked, she has Trudi notice those deformities. Don't children always notice strangeness in adults? And of course Trudi would have been unusually sensitive to this kind of thing.

Thanks for clarifying the "magic" aspect of Trudi's special abilities. Let's watch for other ways in which Trudi's powers help us to perceive the "phantasmagoric political situation" as well as the relations among other characters.

Yes, Morrison has used this device effectively in Beloved and in Song of Solomon, where the ability to fly is an important feature of one central character. Gloria Naylor also uses a bit of magic. Virginia Hamilton, a distinguished African-American writer, wrote "The People Could Fly" as a children's story with adult overtones. Also, numerous Latin-American authors have incorporated some kind of "magic" into otherwise realistic writing.

Ros

Joan Grimes, thanks for the information about the way use of electricity increased in the U.S. This adds to our picture of what was happening outside Burgdorf. I hope you're not too busy to help us again with this kind of resource material. I'm embarrassed to admit that I was just too lazy to chase down the current Statistical Abstracts on the Web, and made do instead with the hardback we have at home, which I think is from the 1960's. Still, for "old" stats it was sufficient...though in these days of revision and new discoveries one must be cautious!

Do please stay tuned and let us have your wise comments.

Ros

As fars a clear image of Trudi thus far very early in the story Hegi clearly describes Trudi at infancy, (1 month old). When Leo held her in his arms and being the first infant he has ever held, did not see her any different than any other infant he had glanced at . Leo was marveled that " the child was like a pebble - round and solid" - Is there a subtle connnection here between the pebbles in Gertrude's injured knee which is revealed a couple of years later.) and Trudi;s dwarfness. ? talk about flashbacks and flashforwards.- even my discussion is going that way).

Also here Hegi describes Trudi has having Leo's light coloring, his strong chin and high forehead. Hegi is certainly leading the readers to believe that Leo is her father. I'm convinced.

I'm closing this post but will be back with more soon.

Beatrice

Dianne: What a day for my email to be down, Welcome, welcome!!

I loved your picture of the stones in the bottom of the river, the ripple effect, and the smooth surface. I thought, but may be wrong, that the things the stones symbolized seemed to shift throughout the book, and think this reading I'll pay more attention. Why, I wonder, would Gertrude have "gravel" in her knee? Is this saying she really ...oh, I need help with Gertrude and her guilt.

What would we all agree that the stones in the river symbolize at this point? I really want to get a handle on it. Would it be guilt? Or sin? and the smooth river would be the cover up or...what?

Bea: I missed the pebble analogy all together! Well done. I had one major disappointment in the book, and I can already see that reading it with all of you will explain my confusion away.

Ginny

Hi Folks,

I did miss a section of the posts that were in the teens so I hope I'm not duplicating your items. I'm not yet swift using this old Mac.

Two characters intrigued me. Emil was a skilled athlete yet unfit for military service due to weak lungs. Aha! A 4-F gymnast, and friend of Leo no less, or was it that there were so few men in the villiage?

Gertrude at the tender age of 4, stopped talking. (Did that not happen to Maya in Why the Caged Bird Sings?) Gertrude had an extremely guilt ridden Catholic conscience. She couldn't make it from her first confession to her first communion, a matter of hours without being reabsolved. Hmmm DI

Hi Folks,

I did missed a section of the posts that were in the teens so I hope I'm not duplicating your items. I'm not yet swift using this old Mac.

Two characters intrigued me. Emil was a skilled athlete yet unfit for military service due to weak lungs. Aha! A 4-F gymnast, and friend of Leo no less, or was it that there were so few men in the villiage?

Gertrude at the tender age of 4, stopped talking. (Did that not happen to Maya in Why the Caged Bird Sings?) Gertrude had an extremely guilt ridden Catholic conscience. She couldn't make it from her first confession to her first communion, a matter of hours without being reabsolved. Hmmm DI

Wow, Ros, you have really done a super fine job on this discussion. The timelines are awesome, the questions fantastic and the discussions way over my head.

I am lurking this time through, as I won't be able to keep up. I just wanted to compliment you on this fantastic site.

Carole

Di: I thought I had read that non-talking before! And I think I've read it somewhere else, too.

So you're saying that Gertrude was so guilt ridden and angst driven that she couldn't even make it from confession to 1st communion. Hmmmm.

And Hmmmmm again.

I just reread my notes from the first 54 pages, and I see I was taken with the "Unknown Benefactor," who by page 23 had been in operation for 12 years, and the Pay Library which is sort of alien to my experience...the formation of a village circle, or group for the book to play off of, and the first chapter ending with this statement about the knee and the river: "It was smooth; the skin had closed across the tiny wounds like the surface of the river after you toss stones into the waves. Only you knew they were there. Unless you told."

I guess that foreshadows (I've often thought if I could just SPELL, I'd be dangerous!) Trudi's unique position in the village. I can't decide whether she actually had powers, or was a child, like so many do, telling stores to get attention and power.

Hegi in the quote above likens the stones to wounds with a smilie. So I guess the "stones" in the title are wounds on the community? And not guilt?

Ginny

Ginny: Could it be that the "gravel" Gertrude feels in her knee is not really gravel but instead lumps of tissue formed in her knee while healing. Gertrude in her state of mind thinks that it is gravel from the roadside where the motorcycle accident occurred. It was on the same day that Leo injured his knee in the war. Gertrude feels guilty about this because she feels it is because of her sin of infidelity Leo was injured. Also I think Gertrude feels that God is punishing her for her sin when Trudi is born a Zwerge. This perhaps explains why Gertrude will not accept Trudi as an infant As Dianne pointed out, Gertrude is an extremely guilt ridden Catholic . In those times Gertrude's infidelity was a mortal sin - one was doomed for eternity unless one confessed and Gertrude through shame could not bring herself to even say the words.

Beatrice

I too am taken by the Uknown Benefactor - Who is he!! I bet wecarry this suspense throughout the entire novel.

Beatrice

I too am taken in by the Unknown Benefactor. Who is he!! I bet we carry this suspense throughout the novel.

Dumb question, but what else is new: Why didn't Gertrude or the ever caring Emil, clean the knee wound? Did she want the stones left there as self punishment? She was odd as a child. Some of the women in the town remember her as being strange or different. Was her childhood damaged in some way? I can't remember if Hegi gave us any info on that. Please enlighten me!!!!! The memory is terrible and I just finished reading this book.

Carole, jump right in!!! I feel inadequate but what the heck!!! These people are great and have so much to say. I love it!

I have been busy catching up on the discussion. Gee, I will be so glad when the Holidays are over and I can just enjoy my wonderful, quiet, often dull days.

Jimmie

What insights all of you have, am really enjoying discussing this book. Jimmie - I don't dare read the whole book at a time as I would forget each of these points also and have to go-at-it all over again. Did that one other time in the B&L and it didn't work for me.

Roslyn - are we to read 4 more chapters now? Which would be 3-6? I'm wondering when are we going to get at Germany, the situation in the country at the time between the wars, etc.

Jimmie - know what you mean about the "dull days." We might complain about them, but we do enjoy them don't we? Hate shopping, have hated it for years, but the season does force one to do a bit of it. And wrapping parcels for mailing is the "pits!"

I am a short person. Reaching is difficult for me and so I triple that in Trudi's case. She reached and became a swimmer. I still can't swim. Stones From the River shows us how to do what we want to if we need to be accomplished. We are all handicapped in some way or another. Seek, find, learn, accomplish and then start seeking again. Trudi kept on. It was a very inspiring book.

Schedule: Has everyone reached at least page 54, the end of Chapter 2? That segment takes us through Gertrud's death and funeral and contains much foreshadowing of future chapters as well as hints about the roles of various characters. We can continue this first discussion through Saturday, but readers are welcome to forge ahead, as there's so much to think about and discuss.

What insightful contributions we're seeing here! Now--just catching up on a few odds and ends:

Ginny and Bea, are your heads, like mine, full of phrases and figures of speech relating to stones? Stonewall, blood from a stone, not bread but a stone, heart of stone, etc., etc. Realistically, do you think the gravel or stones remained imbedded in Gertrud's knee? She might just have had bumpy scars that--in her agitated and guilty state--seemed to her to be the actual stones. The image is certainly that dreadful secrets are hidden beneath a smooth exterior--just as the smooth surface of the Rhein conceals stones, which in turn are worn smooth by the action of the water.

Yes, Dianne, Gertrud seemed to have had a problem of conscience even as a child. There are many hints that her troubles began early. The rigid religious training couldn't have helped. Jimmie,you questioned a conflict between religion and superstition. Do you suppose it would depend on the kind of religious instruction, on whether there was any coercion, threat, or ban on asking for explanations, that would instill fear? Incidentally, old German children's stories both written and traditional (including Grimm's Household Tales, which we call fairy tales) contained a lot of warnings about terrible punishments for failure to obey.

Pay-Library. in German turns out to be Leihbibliotek or "Lend-library." Circulating or lending libraries appeared in Europe early in the 19th century and flourished with the popularity of novels. A small fee was charged for books. Some operated by membership subscription, with fees for late return of books. Since a small town like Burgdorf would hardly be ready to support a free library through tax money, the survival of the Montags' "Leihbibliotek" is explained. (Does anyone remember those English detective novels in which a companion or secretary is always dashing off to "change the library book" for the lady of the manor?)

Monga, thanks for posting your reactions. It's so true that we can find aspects of "Trudi" such as her determination and intelligence which we can admire and identify with.

Ros

Ros, the religious aspect plays an important part in the book and people were afraid to question the Church back then. Children have always been made to feel afraid of one thing or the other as a way of punishment. "If you don't do this or that, the devil will get you,or the boogeyman, or Jesus wouldn't like it if you do this or that". No wonder children were frightened of everything as I was. AND the so called Fairy Tales were scary as could be, still are. And we worry about what the children watch on TV??? The Church discourges or forbides superstition but yet it is full of it. I guess it was a way of keeping people "in line". I was brought up in a Protestant home and later converted to a Catholic. Believe me, the church I was brought up in was very scary to me as a child.

I think I missed the concept of the BC. I thought we would be discussing it after we read the book. Glad to know we will be discussing as we read. MAYBE I will retain more of it.

Jimmie

Hello I am new to this but would love to give it a try.

In the title I thought at first that perhaps the stones were events that happened in ones life and the river was life itself. But this book seems to have a lot of religious overtones. I can't help but wonder if the river is still life but the stones are the sins?

Stones are mentioned several times as is the river. When Trudi threw up and mom took her outback to clean her up. Trudi is described as a round and solid pebble. And the gravel in the mothers knee. Thank you to everyone for explaining "magic realism"

I believe Roz also mentioned Trudi "seeing" her mother and Emil and sex. I work with two year olds daily and I find this hard to believe. Also the joke she told about the virgin maria at the funeral. Not a joke a two or three year old would tell.

Who is the father Emil or Leo? Does it matter? Or is the bottom line guilt/mortal sin/catholic?

Someone mentioned the lines - "It was smooth, the skin had closed across the tiny wounds like the surface of the river after you toss stones into the waves. Only you knew they were there. Unless you told somebody." tiny wounds - sins? the skin had closed....only you knew they were there.......trying to block the sins out of ones mind? Unless you told someone....then forgiveness. Gerturd could not forgive herself. Therefore no one else could forgive her....in her mind. I think this is what drove her insane.

I was also intrigued by the pay library.

And a second thought - however silly. The puzzle Trudi got for Christmas. Blocks with fairy tales on them. I had the same puzzle mentioned in the story as a child!!!

I had computer trouble while trying to type this. I hit a key and jammed something and my paragraphs were no longer in order. I tried to fix this but do not know if I succeded.

Jeanine!! Monga!! Welcome, welcome!!

What a contribution you've made to our fabulous discussion, I'm just in awe of all the posts, and, in fact, have read them over, and, like the book, got something different this time.

Bea: That's a neat "take" on the gravel. That adds a depth I hadn't seen. I think I do agree with you and Ros that it wasn't actual gravel, but Gertrude's always ready guilt factor (well, really, what CAN you expect when the white spots in one's nails are taken for sins!!??!!) caused her to think of them so.

Jimmie: I, too, am wondering about the "ever caring Leo (did you mean Emil? or Leo?) Something about Mr. Leo gave me pause. Of course, if your wife takes off her clothes on the steps of the church, it does cause inconvenience. Surely, tho, he noticed something while courting. I can't remember any reference to her childhood??

Ella: You're right! I just read the book, but obviously missed a lot, and it's nice to really see it in depth, and pick up stuff you might have wondered about without the group!

Monga: I really like your mention of the fact that Trudi (whom Jeanine has noted has been compared to as a "pebble)," learned to swim! Now, with all the references and allusions to sin and guilt and the river being the smooth flowing life of the town, then Trudi's swimming seems to be saying something, but what??

I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said we all had faults, but all his were on the outside for everyone to see?

Ros: Thanks for the background on pay libraries! Wonder WHY they decided to take money for this? Why not just lend a friend a book? I also liked your take on the river smoothing over the stones as it flowed. If I could just decide whether the stones represent sin or guilt or what??

If Jeanine is right, and the stones represent sin (which does seem to be borne out in the later chapters) then the smoothing effect of the river is the cover up?? Of the village?? Or????

Ginny

The references to religion are intriging to me. I, too, was brought up in a very religious atmosphere where everything was a sin and we heard much more about Hell than Heaven. It was terrifying to a child! Nothing about love and goodness. I have read ahead a bit and must comment on this on page 105. "In school, Trudi and Eva learned that the Jews killed Jesus." This was a Catholic school, but Eva is attending and I wonder what Eva thought as she must have know she was Jewish? Certainly, this is not taught today in Catholic schools is it?

Ginny, I can understand the pay library. Probably most of the people would not have the money for the books and those that do may not lend them for fear of them getting lost, etc. It was a way of keeping track of them for all the village and, in imposing fines, they would get them back, I'm sure.

We can put so many interpretations on the river and the stones. All so very thoughtful and interesting to think about.

Ginny, the rental library seems to have been a family business for the Montags, going back almost 100 years if Leo was the third generation. Presumably the founder had some capital to invest in the purchase of books, which he used as the basis for further income from the fees...in Leo's time, not enough to afford a piano, but enough to furnish the living quarters connected to the library. We might speculate that the original Herr Montag ("Mr. Monday") was literate and had some education, which possibly few of the townspeople could match at that time. Or maybe he had a tobacco shop and a traveling salesman for a book company suggested that a lending library would be a good way to expand his business.

There are a few references to Gertrud's "differentness" in her youth, early in the book and also in the part where Leo's sister comes to visit.

Ros

Ros, you took the words from my keyboard about the skin covering the pebbles of Gertrude's knee, as she hid her guilt over her adultery beneath her silence. I had neglected to subscribe to the new BC and so had missed having it turn up the couple times I was on this week. I have now remedied that and read all the posts, so will try to add something to the discussion later. I really think everyone's contributions have been fabulous. The different takes on the stones, especially, were different from mine, but certainly make sense. My interpretation is partly due to later events. I finished the book before TG. Now I'm going to have to go back and look at some of the details. I think this was a well-crafted book. Sharon

Ros: "Montag" means "Monday?" I wonder why she chose that name and if any of the other names are meaningful?

Ginny

•More Schedule Stuff: At the top of the page you'll find some new questions and a listing of the starting date of discussion for each segment. That doesn't mean we necessarily need to have finished all 100-or-so pages within that segment by the date of starting--just that those chapters will be discussed, including your possible reactions to the discussion q's. There's going to be plenty of circling back as we realize how the parts of the story link together, at both the historic and the personal levels. It's my belief that Hegi had that back-and-forth weaving in mind as she put the book together. What do you think?

.Ros

This is really neat, in that I've read the book, but now am rereading it to clarify some stuff, and in the first 100 pages, I'm already seeing patterns of stuff.

I keep wondering what the story is really about? Is it about the effects of Nazism on one little town?

Is it about a young girl growing up?

And then I want to keep saying WHY.

WHY a dwarf? WHY in Nazi Germany? Is the dwarf thing an exaggeration of "otherness?"

Also, have you ever noticed that right here in 1997 when a catastrophic incident occurs (a death, for example)...have you ever noticed it seems to be a human need to ascribe superhuman stuff to the situation? I mean, I've seen it over and over.

And I'm seeing it in the book.

I may be a chorus of one, but I still don't think Trudi possessed any unusual powers other than intuition, and a fertile imagination.

What do you think??

Ginny: more later, there's SO MUCH in just a few pages here.

When Trudi is four, Montag relatives, Robert and Frau Abromowitz, arrive from America for a visit and Trudi has found a friend in her cousin Rober who is the same age as she. Again Heidi brings out the Montag resemblencewhen the children look into a mirror to compare their height - the Montag chin, high forehead, and blond hair. Also George Weiler, who dresses like a girl, and Trudi both having differences that other children ridicule, develop a strong and lasting friendship.

George's difference stems from ,apparently, when Frau Weiler was a child she was continually sexually abused by her stepfater. She carries this secret, "the weight of sin on her body" (more stones from the river?) and becomes a bitter and cold woman, dresses her son like a girl and leaves George's growing up to, as Hegi puts it, "luck". The townspeople gossip and believe that her husband, who was presumeably drowned while on a drunken binge during a flood, has simple taken a long swim to get a way from her (his body having never been found).

Beatrice

I compare Trudi's and Leo's powers of perception and wonder if Trudi at the very early stages of childhood is developing the powers that were inbred her, is a gene inherited from her father. This would explain, in part, why Hegi at times brings out Trudi as being very much a child and at other times has her thinking and behaving like an adult. For example:

Hegi makes comparison with the river and Trudi's stories that she creates from bits of gossip that she overhears at the pay library as "She could see beneath their surface, know the undercurrents, whirlpools that could drag you down......"

When Trudi is but four years old, she holds Frau Eberhardt's newborn baby (Helmut) in her arms and immediately felt a chill deep within her that she no longer wanted to hold him and yet whe was unwilling to give him back to his mother. All at once she knew that Helmut had the power to destroy him mother.

And , Hegi writes of Leo. "but since he'd always seen deeper than most others, beyond facades to the many nuances of shade and light....." when referring to Leo's reaction to Hedwig when she commplained to him of the haircut George talked Trudi into giving him (A pretty professional one I might add, for a four-year old) .

Beatrice

I've enjoyed all the very good posts. Perhaps mine goes beyond the chapters scheduled, though including them.

During her young life Trudi acknowledges, and tries to change, her handicap, and she seeks to accommodate herself and adjust to it. That was her reality! I think she is representative of many people I know (and you know) who struggle all their lives with handicaps: physical, psychological, mental and spiritual. To what extent does Trudi's situation mirror our lives? How should we deal with our own handicaps? Does she give us any clues?

There is a wonderful variety of characters in this book. Are the pressures and temptations they faced common to us also, and is our response any better or worse than theirs? To what extent do we identify with them?

Russ

Well, I felt a thrill of reconition when I first saw Trudi trying to stop the growth of her head, and trying to stretch herself to make herself grow, as I tried to make myself STOP growing (in ways I won't go into) as a child, so I know how she felt. (This is the same woman who now tries to stretch herself up every morning, so what did SHE learn?)

Bea: you've about got me convinced. Four years old is very young, and, I think you are right. Love your quote about the surface and the undercurrents, and I'm assuming here she's talking about the town. Or is she?

I did find the village sort of fairy tale like with an edge. Lines where the town is described as having "upheld the facade which above all, preserved a families respectability. It was a complicity of silence that had served the town for centuries."

Now, there we are definitely seeing a thread develop, which I think is important, which occurs throughout the book: the town, as well as the people in it, are covering up for the sake of????? We're also seeing the beginning of some prejudice in that immigrants are portrayed as having "no manners, no morals." Now, whether or not that's characteristic of ALL small towns, or whether it's just THIS one, I don't know.

Then on pages 86 and 87, the author makes the somewhat startling statement "That skin of sin. The town wouldn't let the people take it off entirely even though everyone pretended it was not there. The town knew. Except for those sins that penetrated the skin and remained secret--like the bits of gravel under the skin of Gertrude Montag's knee."

I'm getting very confused by the word pictures here...One minute the surface of the town and the skin is sin, and the next minute it's the stones and the gravel UNDER the surface that are the sins. I wish somebody would straighten me out.

Russ: I did find some characters to identify with later in the book: you may be surprised at who they were. I think it would be fun as each reader comes upon a character with whom they really feel a rapport, to tell us who it is, and why.

Meanwhile, I'm still stuck with Leo plastering the walls of his bedroom with photos of his dead wife. Not she as she appeared when she was alive and beautiful and laughing, but she in her coffin.

Is this a custom you all are familiar with? Have you EVER seen this??

Ginny

PS: You know, I've just been looking at the parallel events in the heading, and it's almost frightening what events were taking place while the little village was struggling in its own little microcosm. I'm wondering now if there's a moral somewhere in this?

Ginny

Bea, Yes, the family resemblance with Robert was important to Trudi. Did you think it gave her a stronger sense of identification with the family? You spotted an important aspect of Frau Weiler's unusual behavior toward her son Georg. She hoped to control his maleness as a reaction to her own early abuse. i(She wasn't the only one whose molestation plays a part in the story.)

I felt that Hegi's care in detailing Leo Montag's celibacy, his devotion to his dead wife, and his avoidance of further female relationships was intended to reassure us that his relation with Trudi was also circumspect. Trudi's inner reflections mention many of her "sins" including masturbation, but there is no reference to any guilt regarding her father.

I don't think I can agree that there was anything genetic in "Trudi's" apparent powers. I do think that her reaction to the infant Helmut was included to alert us to a later event in the novel.

Hegi intersperses these eerie foreshadowings and the unlikely precociousness of "Trudi" with many examples of normal four- or five-year-old behavior, sensitivity to the coarseness of adults, playfulness, and a tremendous yearning for love and acceptance. In some of these things I think Hegi is writing from experience, perhaps from observing her own two small children or from her own recollections. In the more mysterious parts I think she's using "Trudi" as the omniscient narrator.

Ginny, does this idyllic village begin to seem like one of those creepy TV "Twilight-Zone"-type shows where everything looks lovely on the surface, until things start to break up?

BTW, photographs of dead loved ones were very common in the US almost from the time photography was introduced, so it seems reasonable that they would have been used in Europe as well. They did provide a memento of the deceased and also served as a reminder for the children who were too young to recall the actual event.

Ros

Ginny - I can't straighten you out about what is the sin, either. And I'm not sure whether Trudi is prescient or just intuitive. She is many things - wise beyond her years, and cruel in shunning other child who are "abnormal" in some visible way; and in revealing Eva's birthmark (for revenge). I imagine this is a human characteristic, to strike back in any way we can when we have been hurt. At least in childhood. I hope as we mature we can accept circumstances better.

On page 112 we are coming to the political situation in Germany when Trudi is studying history - she remembers Leo telling her "we Germans have a history of sacrificing everything for one strong leader, it's our fear of chaos." Interesting remark - that fear of chaos. Is that perhaps an excuse of what comes later? A parallel of the "strong leader" today, of course, would be Saddam Hussein and on the news the other day the Palestinians were talking of Yasser Arafat as becoming too strong a leader. History repeating itself, as Trudi is learning.

On pages 124-125 the inflation and unemployment of the country is discussed - this the result of the Versailles treaty and the peoples' anger rising.

And what are we to make of poor Trudi's unfortunate episode with the village boys at the river? This is an incident that surely will stay with Trudi for a long time and scar her in some way. And at the end of Chapter Six, Trudi throwing the stones from the river in anger at the boys. Is this a symbolism? I don't see the connection between this episode with the stones and her mother's stones beneath the skin. Someone will have to enlighten me here. - Ella

We're reaching, at the end of this segment, a vital turning point in Trudi's life: the episode in the barn. You'll notice that the pages leading up to it deal with purity, innocence, secret wishes, and awakening sexuality--and then everything crashes together on that spring day by the river.

Ella, you raise a challenging question about the symbolism of the stones at various points in the narrative. If we were to play a brainstorming game we might come up with a hundred different "meanings" for stones, and we're seeing many different possible meanings in this book.

As I thought about it, after reading your post and others', it seemed to me that the overall significance of "stones" is the same throughout: Stones are hard, nonliving objects whose presence may be unnoticed when they are covered by the river or buried in the earth, but impossible to disregard when they are brought to the surface. Stones are like secrets. They become weapons that maim or kill, or shards that cut human flesh.

On the other hand, stones make the foundations of buildings and strengthen the walls; they can provide a shelter to hide lovers or fend off enemies. They are ancient. Stones are like tradition.

Finally, stones can be worn away by the constant movement of water, or shattered by sharp persistent blows--sometimes blows from other stones. Stones can be changed, but the change is either very slow, or else violent.

I've been thinking about Gertrud's knee and the bumps she imagined were stones from her guilty act. Were these -- whether stones or just scars -- palpable to her but hardly noticed by others -- her own "sin beneath the skin" which perhaps she had been unable to confess in church? Did her suffering and guilt go back even earlier than this one rash act that arose from her fear of abandonment by her soldier husband? Perhaps to her childhood?

Ros

Russ - To address Trudi's handicap and how she copes with it.

Although Trudi is well aware of her physical appearance she finds it very difficult to accept this difference in her body. She's tries many ways to make herself grow. - nothing works, she is frustrated and at times angry. After meeting up with another Zwerge (Pia) who helps her better understand her difference, Trudi realizes that she too can be happy as a Zwerge. She changes her appearance by making adult looking clothes to fit her body as opposed to the child-like styles she has been wearing. She asks her father to make some adjustments to their home that would enable her to be more independent in the home. Pia also suggests that instead of stretching and looking up to all these much taller people while talking to them that she instead keep her eyes level. People would then bring themselves to her level while in conversation. I think Hegi's intnent here is to give Trudi a sense of belonging.

I think handicapped people could better cope with life if they accept their handicap and make the best of the situation. Most people are aware of the handicapped and respect it as such.

Beatrice

Ella: I think Trudi throws the stones in the river in total anger at the boys for being such , shall we say, jerks.

Ross: Great definitions of"stones". I do think Gertrude's madness stems from early childhood tho and not just from her guilt of adultry. Did'nt Hegi write up Gertrude as having a hard time getting from her first confession to her first communion without the fear of sinning? Or was that someone else? In any case, I think Trudi was very sensitive to guilt in her early years.

Beatrice

Ella and Bea, Yes, Trudi is definitely scarred by her experience with the boys. She feels despair because Georg doesn't come to her rescue, though he might have wanted to; and she feels guilt because her own feelings were aroused at the same time she was struggling against this violation. The guilt stays with her for years, until she is finally able to "confess" it and receive absolution -- but not in church.

Trudi worries about being good and being liked by the sisters; but she certainly isn't saintly in her vengeful cruelty to Eva, or in her scary threats to Hans-Jurgen; and she is vain about the beautiful soprano voice that seems to embody the purity and innocence so soon to be lost.

I think it's in the section that immediately precedes the attack that Trudi becomes, for me, the most human and the least symbolic. At 14 she experiences the pains and the daydreams of adolescence, and in this she is like any other teen-age girl.

Weren't you charmed by the lovely Pia, and by the little fantasy-duet that she and Trudi spun? Again, a dream of purity and innocence, fulfillment without guilt. And what a wonderful revelation for Trudi.

Ros

Thanks, Ros, for excellent reflections on the possible meaning of the stones. Also thanks to Beatrice for excellent reflections on Trudi's attitude about, and struggle with, her handicap, and how it speaks to us.

Russ

What a book! Is this what people are tallking about when they say "a big read?" So much going on. We've got the village, and its characters, and how they play off each other, but always, always in the background, like children playing in a playpen next to the highway, we've got the passing parade of history. Am just fascinated by the background events Ros has so painstakingly put in the heading. Sooner or later, you have the feeling a truck will leave the highway, and smash the playpen.

I wonder WHY Hegi chose this backdrop? Surely the plot was interesting enough. Such characters...was thinking of them all night. The book does NOT leave you. We're about to get to the part that moved me so deeply...am glad to have you all to talk with about it.

EVERYBODY's first reaction to the events of the Holocaust is always "Why didn't they leave?" I think we're about to be put there and find out, and it's very painful, indeed. Had NO trouble at all identifying with several of the subjects: but I get ahead of myself.

Agatha Christie always thought there were enough character types in one little village to write endless books on. Here we've got Trudi, a dwarf (does anyone know what causes dwarfism?), Georg, whose mother dresses him in girls clothes, Eva with a birthmark, the butcher who had his photo taken as a soldier, and who believes it himself, the asparagus secret, the "Unknown Benefactor,""Nearly every family had a dead baby,"...as it passes into the collective memory of the town. The town itself becomes sort of an entity, a power as it takes on and casts off "truths," and covers up truths....and, (just to thoroughly mix metaphors) the little leaks of hatred begin to seep through the dike. Georg is not allowed to play with Jewish or Protestant children. The Jews killed Jesus ("The Jews in Burgdorf were different kinds of Jews, not the kind who killed Jesus--or anyone for that matter)." (page 106). Immigrants are unmannered and uncivil. Jews are rich and we're starving, " they cecame only more jealous of Jews like herr Abramowitz and Fraulein Birnsteig, who were successful and could afford whatever they wanted....Nearly all agreed that the Versailles Friedensvertrag was degreading and starving them all...They longed for the life they hd known before the war, a life of order which--when they thought of it--seemed etched by sunlight."

The truck is sweeping nearer and nearer to the playpen of the little quaint fairy tale town, with its children and toys and villagers...and I think the author wants us to look closely at that town and compare it to our own...

Are all small towns alike, I wonder? Just last November I heard it said of my own little town, "Well, she's not ONE OF US." I think that Burgdorf is everytown, despite the seemingly unusual characters.

You're familiar with the poem:

"They came for the Catholics, but I wasn't a Catholic....?"

I think this touches a chord in all of us.

SORRY this is SO long, I keep TRYING to be brief, but failing!

Ginny

Ginny - I like your "long" posts. Didn't I read somewhere a long time ago that they can now correct dwarfism or the inability to grow normally? But I'm not sure how. Anyway, you don't see them in modern times, so possibly they can. I used to work - long ago when I was a young lady - in downtown Columbus, which I thought a very big city and there were 2 or 3 dwarfs that worked downtown also. I would see them every once inawhile and I remember trying not to stare at them, although you are normally curious. I thought Hegi described Trudi well with the bow legs and big head for the body, etc.

I lived off and on in a small town - I hated it as a teenager. Well, as a matter of fact, still do as an adult. I see the same situations existing there as I did back then. The south end of town where the poor whites lived, the east end where the blacks lived, the north end where the "rich" lived, etc. All ends of town have their own elementary schools and when these children meld together into Jr./Sr. High bedlam breaks out - use your imagination as to what happens, and it is all true! Try to erase those boundaries in a young person's mind. I see a bit of that in this book, although it centers more around the religious aspects of the people, rather than the boundaries. The Catholics, Protestants and the Jews.

Must read on soon - Ginny, I know, you can feel it - that the truck is coming to smash the playpen. And we know that it is all true what the Nazis are going to do.

Ginny - now that I have been thinking about it, I think the inability to grow had something to do with the thyroid or pituitary gland. I don't think it was hereditary. Does anybody know anything more about this? I could probably go to the enclyopedia for this, but haven't as yet used it on the computer - Someday, I'm going to take the time to learn much more about this wonderful gadget!

Ella, while you're waiting to conquer the on-line encyclopedia you might be interested in these sketchy facts:

Pituitary dwarfism is, as you can infer, a disorder of the pituitary gland in which the individual has normal proportions but is very small in size. There are various possible causes for this. This condition can often be treated successfully with Human Growth Hormone. There are 10 types of inherited short-limbed "disproportionate dwarfism" - more normally sized upper body and short legs - of which achondroplasia, the type Trudi had, is the commonest, characterized by "bulky forehead, saddle nose, lumbar lordosis or severe swayback, bow legs." Individuals with this genetic condition can live to old age. The only treatment described in the Merck Manual is hip-joint replacement, which may be of some help in a limited number of cases. There are other forms of short-limbed dwarfism that may be fatal.

We might make a wild guess that the genes for this condition existed in either Leo's or Gertrud's family, or possibly in both, as a very rare recessive gene with few occurrences that lived to adulthood.

If we recall that dwarves appear in German folklore, we might conjecture that they were rare but not unheard of among the German people.

Ginny, your mention of the poem, "They came for the Catholics, etc", had been in my mind throughout the reading of the book. It seemed to me that the majority of the town tried to disassociate itself from anyone that was different or in trouble or might possibly get them in trouble. You see it in the way Eva acts about Trudi when in the company of others, again when Georg doesn't help Trudi after the rape, again when various villagers were taken away by the SS, etc. Only a few like Leo, Trudi, Emil, and a couple others were willing to become involved and help other people, though even then it was in secret. Of course, with the SS vs the Jews, that was a necessity, but it really wasn't in the other cases.

I agree with Russ (?) that the stones seemed to symbolize many things, changing somewhat with the story. But again, I feel that they symbolized the secret sins of life hidden beneath the surface and then later the violence felt or experienced by the characters.

I think Trudi, the dwarf, stood for the different, the otherness, the set apartness--what English creativity!--that she and others were made to feel and their isolation in society. To have her be the central voice of the book gives insight into, not only her feelings as a "markedly different individual", but also her perception of others' actions and feelings toward her. I'm not sure that I am expressing my thoughts very clearly, but I felt that perhaps this was the theme. Hope you can make sense out of my rather muddled comments. Sharon

Sharon, your perceptive comments illuminate one of the disturbing themes here. I'm reminded of a slogan from, I guess, the 1960's in Britain, part of which was used as a movie title: "I'm all right, Jack -- forget you." I suspect "forget" is a euphemism for a stronger word.

On the obverse of this coin is the line from one of John Donne's sermons that Hemingway made familiar to us all: "Therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." And Walt Kelly's Pogo summed it up even more concisely: "We have met the enemy, and they are US."

We are weak creatures, and as we watch someone else being dragged away to prison, to labor camp, to death in the gas chamber, we might think anxiously of our own secrets --those stones at the bottom of the river which, if they are dredged up, could become weapons against us.

As I reviewed some texts on German history to collect data for the chronology, I was reminded that in Germany, as in the U.S., there was a time when voters of every political persuasion could freely state their views and support them with their votes. In the first postwar period, Communists and Socialists, militarists and right-wing nationalists, represented actual political parties and gained seats in the parliament. Various groups fought for ascendancy and control, but the severest repression began with the growing power of the NSDAP - the National Socialist German Workers Party, which we learned to call the Nazis. Hitler's party claimed to bring everyone, that is all the "pure" ones, under a single umbrella, to strengthen Germany and bring peace and prosperity. No wonder citizens wanted to hide their own differentness, and to distance themselves from those who had already been singled out as wrong, impure, undesirable.

Ros

Thanks much Ros for looking up dwarfism for me. And for your insights, as well, on the themes in the book - and the history of the period. I'll read further over the weekend.

Reverting back to an earlier theme, and following Ros's reflections on the stones, may I suggest another possible interpretation? The stones are the people/characters united in Bergdorf, sharing interests and friendship common to all but each with his/her own uniqueness. The river represents time and experience.

Recently my daughter reminded me that many years ago when she was five or six years old I used to read to her in the evening from Robert Louis Stevenson's A Child's Garden of Verses, "Dark brown is the river, golden is the sand. It flows along foever, With trees on either hand.' The continuity of the river and its effect on us is a common theme. Thomas Wolfe wrote of the Time and the River. The old spiritual says that Old Man River ". . don't plant cotton, and those that plant it are soon forgotten, but Old Man River, he just keeps rollin' along."

Hegi lifts some of those stones out of the flowing river for us to see: Trudi, Gertrud, Leo, Emil, Eva, Georg, Frau Doktor Rosen, Herr & Frau Blau, Herr & Frau Weiler, Herr & Frau Abramowitz, and many others. But they are together in life-changing and life-shattering times in Burgdorf. And, as Ginny beautifully pointed out, Burgdorf is Our Town, our stones gathered together in the river--the stones and the river that inhabit that same realm of reality where we ourselves live.

Russ

Hi Folks,

I've kept up with all your excellent posts but, flu, the season, and unusually large amounts of snow left no time to comment.

I've been thinking back on dwarves that I've encountered. In recent time a dwarf couple pushing a stroller with a "small" child obviously a dwarf - genetics. A beautifully dressed blond girl in a kindergarten Sunday School class. At the end of each class, her 12 year old brother always swept her up, as one would an 18 month old, and hurried her to the family car. I never saw her given an opportunity to walk any distance. It was too easy to pick her up. Leo also did this. And last, a girl in junior high school that I didn't know well and probably no one else bothered to befriend - sad to think back on it.

I loved Pia - a Fairy God Mother to T. She was so at ease with her situation and held all the answers. Her telling T to speak softly just warmed my heart - such a great ploy!

Have you noticed the birds, not just storks? Pia's parrot - colorful, showy as was Pia. Eva had a red breasted bird who came to an unfortunate demise. Eva also was red breasted - ergo . . . Are there more?

The swallows rose from the willows as T went to swim. Their beating wings (143) drowned the rush of the Rhein. There were also slimy rocks (144). The sun on the water en capsuled T like that of amber (a type of stone). T walked as if crossing a desert of broken glass - later to connected to Kristallnacht? After T goes back for her clothes, the swallows skimmed across the surface.

Why was Seehund (sea hound) portrayed as afraid of water and thus incapable of coming to T's aid? "This witness to her shame" (150). Would he represent the "impotent" German, non Jew, population in WWII?

One by one T hurls stones into the river. Later on does she resurrect each stone from the river (individual boy) with a future revenge?

We're adding individual's secrets that T stows away for later use, control, and power.

Gazing at the cover, a great deal of the village is built with stones from the river, at least the foundations.

I just ask more questions than I answer - mea culpe.

I admire Hegi who can write in a 2nd language with such depth. If you wrote this book, would you not kibitz? Perhaps she's here!

Di

(Note: Edit by Host LCH)

Sorry about my apostrophes and quotes. I do not know why that happened. Every time I attempted to post (and there may be more than one copy of the same thing) I got knocked off the net. Di

Thanks, Ella! There's been so much on dwarfism lately in the news, but I didn't read it, never knew I'd really need it! Have not conquered Britannica Online yet and it keeps crashing my computer, so may never.

Thanks,Ros, for that info: dwarfs in German history? Is "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" German? Can anybody think of any other examples that may be?

Sharon: your "muddled post," indeed! The first time I read it, last night, I had this wonderful FLASH of insight about Trudi, and something about disassociation and symbolism, and it was all SO CLEAR, but it was so late, and I was dead on my feet, so thought I'd wait until today. WOULD YOU BELIEVE such is the quality (or lack thereof) of my mind that I can't, for the life of me get it again??

Everybody read Sharon's post again? There's something there just lurking!! There's a major truth about the novel and about disassociation.

Russ: now that was poetic! If we think of the river as life, then we all know what water does to stones. Unless, of course, they block the water....isn't this fun??

DI!~! Broken glass? Kristallnacht? Missed it entirely!! Wonderful. Missed the birds, too, and the red breasted one with Eva.

Sometimes I think when you read and you see a mention of something, your mind goes off to where you've stored that memory, and even tho you read on, you think in terms of what happened to you. I went off about the birds and missed the point, I think.

COVER?? Grabbed up glasses! Village MADE of stones??? WOW wOw wOW!!

Now, you can't build a house of stone without doing one stone at a time, or you might say one sin at a time in the town's consciousness. One compounding more and more: a wall.

Oh dear, stop the woman, she's gong to quote A Christmas Carol again: " I wear the chain I forged in life, I made it, link by link and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it. Is its pattern strange to you?"

That's how it happens, I think. Link by link and stone by stone...little things, little omissions and comissions, and pretending they aren't there under the smooth surface of the water of daily existence which just flows on, but eventually you see the result. But then it's too late. It may be harder to be heroic in small things?

So long as we're looking at the cover, what is the photograph depicting, does anyone know?

Well, not only is the book wonderfully interesting, but so is our discussion. I DEFY you to find a better one! What fun!

Ginny

Ella, Russ, Dianne, thanks for your meaningful contributions and provocative suggestions. Dianne, I've read your post three times and was fascinated by the number of wonderful "stones" clues you've picked up, to support the title and the idea of theme.

I also hunted back through the earlier part of the book for details about Seehund. His fear of water is made clear soon after he enters the story. But let me resort to an old anecdote: Sigmund Freud, one of the foremost interpreters of symbols in language and in dreams, is said to have remarked, when pursued for an explanation of something, "Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar and not a phallic symbol."

I want to postpone our discussion of plot structure until we've had a chance to share our ideas about the way the story and characters develop. However, in the case of this crucial incident, I'm inclined to speculate that Seehund's "ancient" fear of water is just a plot device to support his inability to jump in and rescue Trudi. He does snap at the marauding boys but he's an old dog and they repeatedly kick him and push him away.

Hegi's frequent use of references to birds does tap into their symbolic connection with beauty, variety, and freedom, the ecstasy of soaring flight always tempered by their vulnerability to predators and to humans.

Ros

Ginny, the cover illustration is identified as "Nuremberg Seen from the West" by Albrecht Durer, one of the greatest of 15th-century German artists, who lived in the time of Martin Luther. Nuremberg is in east-central Germany and isn't on the Rhein, but the painting shows a riverside city with fortress and castle possibly like those of Dusseldorf. And Nuremberg, as we'll soon find out, was the location from which the most virulent anti-Jewish decrees emerged. "Seen from the West" -- That's us, isn't it? Durer's work included many representations of Heaven and Hell, complete with monsters and flames and other "magical" aspects of 15th-century religion. The inset photograph is recognizable as a Nazi rally.

Ros

I've just read through Chapter 10 - am slow at it, I know, but am reading 2 other ones at the same time! Have just a few comments at this point. I keep saying to myself - How could they? For example, sing the Horst Wessel song "When the Jew blood spurts from the knife" And they have been friends with the Jewish people of the village for years and years.

I find it very hard to believe that a 10-year old boy would hang himself because his parents would not let him join the Hitler Youth organization - does anyone else find this a bit much?

A criticism of Hegi - Is it really necessary in this story to put all this sexual stuff in? Really!! There is Trudi's rape, Trudi's sensual emotions even to the point of masturbation, and now an incestuous relationship between her friend Ingrid and her father and then on page 236 all these awful things about varying villagers. Is Hegi just trying to be a "modern" writer - it seems that every book today has this type of stuff in it and it is just disgusting to me. It doesn't add a thing to the story!

I do like the historical part of the novel but I love history anyway. I could do with less of Trudi and more of the villagers emotions and their reactions toward the Nazi movement and Hitler. In many references Hegi cites the church as a culprit in explaining the people's willingness to "obey." On page 239 - "They knew how not to ask questions, they had been prepared for it by government and church." And in many other places. Also on page 213, I found it interesting that since Hitler had come to power the interests of the nation was first, the family was second and the individual was the least important member of society. This was in contrast to previous teaching where individuality was primary.

More later - sorry about the length again! - Ella

Ella, Your previous comments have certainly indicated that you are interested in history and have an awareness of the historical background of this novel. You're really a bit ahead of the game here! as the discussion of Chapters 6 - 10 won't "officially" begin until Sunday, December 14th. I guess most of us have that habit of keeping two or three books going at once and then scrambling to finish something.

I want to acknowledge the questions you raise about the sexual matters and some of the actions Hegi introduces at various points. These are entirely fair questions. I can understand possible impatience with what often seem like unnecessary references to sexual matters, though I do feel that they are quite moderate compared to the average contemporary novel. They seemed to me to occur at points in the story where they had some relevance to Trudi's developmental stage or to the overriding emphasis on sin, particularly sins of the flesh, that seemed to pervade the consciousness of this small town. I'm sure there will be many such critical exchanges at a later phase of our discussion.

However, you've given me an opportunity to repeat and clarify the direction that I think our discussion can most constructively follow as we read "Stones" together -- so here goes:

As sophisticated readers, we all have several strands of awareness operating simultaneously in our minds. My feeling is that, if we're to have a meaningful discussion among the members, it's important (though difficult!), for us all to read the whole novel and become familiar with the narrative -- what Hegi has actually written about characters and events -- before questioning the logic of plot, the appropriateness of the content, or even the literary style.

Thus far, we've stayed with (1) the events as they are narrated, mostly seen through Trudi's eyes (or the eyes of "Trudi" the omniscient observer); (2) the symbolism of the title as it applies to these events, and (3) the historical background of the story insofar as that fills in the setting of Germany in the period of the story. We're approaching a point of greater interactions: among the other characters within Burgdorf, and among the townspeople as a group with the political Germany of the time. I would urge that we continue moving through the narrative, though at times we find it confusing, even annoyingly constructed as it zig-zags back and forth.

Can we look (for example) for some kind of continuity based on Trudi's "journey through life" as she ages, while at the same time (in the words of an old Jacques Brel song) "on the streets...the world is burning"?

When we have gone with Trudi on this journey, from 1915 to 1952, then let's look at all those matters that are nudging our consciousness while we read.

Ella, I hope this makes sense to you and to other readers.

Ros

Ella: Now it's my turn! I love your "long" posts!

I thought the stuff on page 236 may have been put there to demonstrate the underbelly of the town, which the town had succeeded in covering up...the "informal list of those whose names--because of embarrassment to their families or church--were unspoken as if they'd never been born." Then Hegi says, on page 239," Most practiced the silence they were familiar with, a silence nurtured by fear and complicity that would grow beoynd anything they could imagine...To justify this silence, they tried to find the good in their government or fled into the mazes of their own lives, turning away from the community. They knew how not to ask questions; they had been prepared for it by government and church."

THAT is a very powerful indictment of several institutions, thrown in to our story of little Trudi.

Ros: Thanks for that "Seen From the West!" Now, that is without a doubt, clever planning on the part of the publisher-(as the author rarely has control over the cover illustrations)... The other is a little less clear. A Nazi Rally? Well, it seems that the publisher, at least, is trying to make a point--it's not a very clear point, or photo, to me. Why the rally? There are lots of period photos...but, this is beside the point, I guess.

Now I must confess I find myself extremely irritated about the poor dog. What on earth does one expect from a dog? He barked, he tried to get to the boys, she kept trying to send him back, he bit one of the boys, was STONED for it, and crippled, and when he finally did manage to drag himself up to her she kicked him away in her rage.

What breed of dog was he, anyway? Giant Mastiff? What more could be expected? The result, according to the beginning of Chapter 7 was that she couldn't bear to touch her dog.

I don't know how to say this other than to say it: I'm having a hard time concentrating on Trudi, to be honest. I don't know why. I don't know if she's not skillfully drawn, or I ate onions for dinner, or the events and people the author chose to surround her with just overpower her, but she's almost a shadow presence to me...is everybody else empathizing with her??

Ginny

Hi, Guys!!! I'm home...and delighted to be back into a sweatsuit. All that tropical air is a bit much, but I managed to keep reading. I'm interested in "Stones", but I must say that it's easily put aside. It was good airplane reading, but heavy to carry around otherwise. And...I read that barn scene three times, and I don't think Trudi was raped. The boys seemed to be more interested in whether or not she looked like 'normal' girls. Guess I need to go back and read all the posts I skipped to get here. Don't want to miss a single opinion!

Love, Katie

I've been wondering the same thing, Katie!! Thought I'd missed something. Later, she seems to indicate she was??!!??

Thought I was getting a little "thick" in my old age!

So glad you're back! We're having, as you can see, a fabulous discussion!

Ginny

A couple of comments Ros, Katie and Ginny: I think some of us agree that Trudi is somewhat boring and to tell the truth I was a bit turned off the book until I got to the 2nd half - I've read ahead a lot and we do get into other characters much more - it becomes a better and more interesting book.

Ginny and Katie - I didn't think Trudi was raped either at first - that episode in the barn didn't appear to me to be rape. But later in the book it is made clear that she was.

Ros- I think your ideas are great as to the discussion, but if I understand them correctly you want us to wait until we finish the book to discuss "logic of plot, appropriateness of content and literary style." Perhaps that will work with others but once I finish a book I'm ready to file it away, give it away, return to library whatever and get on with my next one. I would have forgotten all these notes I have made along the way. I'm not very good at "comparing books" for logic and literary style. I just usually remember whether it was a good one and a no-go one. If I were an author or a literary critic, perhaps, huh?

Ros - you can scold me now - I got so interested in the 2nd half of the book (where it comes alive for me), I read through Chapter 15, but will not discuss it till we get to there.

Have a good day all of you. Does anyone but me notice the absence of male readers in a lot of the B&L folders? Do men read anymore or are the TV football games all consuming?

Ella, the questions you've just raised are important and require answering. You have reason on your side in several. I've printed out your message and am going to think through my responses before posting. I hope other BC members will enter the discussion.

Let me just admit frankly before signing off that I think Stones is far from being a great book. It might barely qualify for the bookstore "literature" shelf rather than "fiction" if only because of the seriousness of the background subject matter. However -- because I know that I have, shall we say, a rather definite way of expressing myself -- I felt that as discussion leader I needed to be fair to the author and the text in order not to overwhelm others with my negative opinions. But once we've reached 1952 I'll join everyone else and have my say. And I hope you'll hang on to your notes until then!

Thanks for your response.

Ros

I have 2 comments about the cover illustrations. Durer's painting of Nuremburg made me think of the Trials of Nuremburg in the aftermath of the war. I wonder if perhaps the author requested this painting to indicate a judgement of both Germany and Burgdorf...???

2nd, the photo may be of a Nazi rally, considering all the swastikas, but I first thought it was a circus. I thought there were some trapezes in it, but maybe it is a flag standard. If it is a rally, perhaps she was trying to picture the mass hysteria and herd mentality of the time. Or if it were a circus, perhaps she is saying that Burgdorf is really a circus in microcosm...?? Sharon

Responding to recent comments about Trudi, pro and con, etc.:

I don't think Trudi as an individual is unduly boring. Just look at her as she grows, suffers pain, loves and loses, yearns, gives up some of her daydreams...relinquishes some of her hatred... begins to be compassionate...begins to be less self-involved and more altruistic...she's O.K. and more than O.K.

The boring one is "Trudi", that all-wise, precocious, irritating busybody who loftily sizes up politics and personalities at the age of 4, studies history in first grade, absorbs adult knowledge just from listening to Leo and his friends, and generally surveys the whole town from ceiling height.

It takes patience to separate the two. But I think we owe it to the author to try to follow her plot -- the actions she describes and the events that underlie them - in the hope of understanding her purpose and glimpsing her viewpoint. Having done that, we have a right to criticize every aspect of the work.

But, Ella, you're absolutely correct that members should have the right to comment as they go, on whatever bothers or charms them or seizes their imagination. Of course, something that chafes in Chapter 3 might be fully explained in Chapter 13, but that's one of the risks of the "involved" reader.

So -- let me immediately retract any implication that my way is the only correct way. But let me also reserve the right to hope that assessing Stones impartially before rendering a negative opinion will result in a richer experience for us all.

Please --Would everybody who reads this consider responding with whatever comments, pro, con, or neutral, occur to you? Your remarks could have an effect on the future direction of Book Club discussions. I'm sure that those who post and those who lurk share a justified pride in the quality of the BC and want it to continue to be lively, active, and worthwhile.

Many thanks--

Ros

Ros, I tend to agree with you on negative comments, in that the discussion often clarifies the why's & wherefore's of something that may at first seem a negative aspect of a book. I often change my over-all opinion of a book by the time I have read all the posts regarding it. Probably because the discussions cause me to think much more deeply about details rather than to speed through it and come to a superficial reaction. Sharon

I've just finished reading about 40 posts that have accumulated since I was last here, all VERY interesting! I'm catsitting in Calgary, for my daughter, while she cruises in the Virgin Islands.

Reading about dwarfism brought to mind a neighbor's baby, born when I was 11 years old. The mother was a great friend of mine and always had time to sit and talk to me. When she had her baby boy, I knitted a baby bonnet for him and eagerly gave it to her. I couldn't understand why she got tears in her eyes, until my mother explained to me that he was a dwarf and the bonnet was too small for him. He was just a tiny baby then and I guess I wasn't very observant.

I remember when he was 4 years old, asking his mother why he was so much smaller than all the other kids. The doctor told his mother he wouldn't live past 15 years old, but he was wrong. He lived until his late 20s. He was a beautiful child, handsome, but also beautiful on the inside. His mother was devastated when he was born, her first child, and she said there were no other dwarfs in her family. She had 3 more children, all normal. It was sad to see that little boy grow up. I don't think he ever accepted his differences.

I enjoyed reading Stones From the River. I thought it was an engrossing book and helped me understand the attitude of the people at that time. Now I'm reading Plum Island which I finally got from the library! (Always behind and trying to catch up!

Ruth

So far there have been some excellent posts on Stones. There is so much good in this book. While we have the liberty to make very negative comments, we must realize that we do so at a price. We don't want to scuttle the ship while we are still on the voyage!

While the author has Trudi saying things beyond her age and experience, should we assume that she intended to have two Trudis, any more than Hardy intended to have two Judes, since he was used the same way? Whether she was intended to be the heroine, I don't know. Beyond that, does she not serve as the center from which the other characters are spun off?

Just some thoughts for whatever they may be worth.

Russ

Russ, your figure of speech says it just right: Let's not scuttle the ship while we are still on the voyage. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

I don't want to violate my commitment to be (comparatively) impartial about author and book by commenting in detail on Hegi's authorial decisions. For my own peace of mind I have split "Trudi" the Greek chorus from Trudi the Zwerge. I've speculated that Hegi needed some kind of omniscient viewer because she felt herself unqualified for the role, since that whole tragic period of history had (she claimed) been concealed from her. How well her device succeeded may be one of the questions we can more freely discuss after we've completed the voyage.

Ros

Within this current segment, political and social changes begin to impinge on Trudi's personal struggle. Adolf Hitler becomes Chancellor. The National Socialist Party gains power and seems to infuse new hope into a discouraged nation with youth movements, rallies, new jobs in public works projects, and, increasingly, with the identification of a group -- the Jews -- on which can be laid the blame for all the ills of the post-war period.

In proclaiming his anti-Semitic doctrines, Hitler was tapping an ancient undercurrent of doubts and resentments that had existed at least as far back as Martin Luther in the sixteenth century. Before this pestilence of hate was stopped, not only had six million Jews throughout Europe been exterminated, but so had more than ten million others -- Gypsies; religiously motivated dissenters; people suspected (however unreasonably) of being Communists; homosexuals; "mental defectives"; Soviet prisoners-of-war, and unarmed, defenseless non-combatants in every country overrun by the German war-machine before the tide of war turned against it.

But this novel deals only with Germany and only with a small town on the outskirts of Dusseldorf. Still, even in this setting, several questions come to mind:
Why didn't the people of Burgdorf resist?
Why didn't the Jews leave?
And why should Trudi have cared about what was happening?

Ros

Ruth - what a sad story. It reminded me of friends of ours who had a deformed child who was also mentally retarded and yet they loved that child so. The child wasn't expected to live past adolescence, but lived into her 20's possibly because of the love she received, but her mother often told me how much the child gave back in love.

Ros - yes, I do believe you are right when you say there are 2 Trudis, the child and the mature Trudi. However, and this is just one opinion, but I must state it, I think the author went on a bit much with the child. I think Hegi is "setting the scene" here, but she takes too long to do it and bores the reader with the childishness of it all. However, as I said before, the second half of the book comes alive and perhaps is the reason for the first. But to Sail On ----

Your questions are good ones. (1) Hegi shows us in many instances the societal issues as Hitler comes to power - employment increases, their hunger diminishes, people have a new vigor, excitement, hope, there are parades and music once again. Why would they resist such wonderful changes in their daily lives? (2) Some Jews left; others did not believe it would go very far. If we remain silent, it will go away they thought. Frau Abramowitz thought it meant a loss of dignity if she rebelled against authority; they had been taught to conform, to obey. (3) On page 197 we have one answer as to why Trudi cared. "For her it came far more natural to rage against circumstances than to fit herself to them." Sometimes the rage harmed her, but she wouldn't have exchanged it for acceptance of oppression.

That last sentence is perhaps the reason for the first 10 chapters of the book? - Sincerely, Ella

Ella, what a keen observation--The sentence about Trudi's willfulness and "readiness to rage against circumstances" may well be one of the "theme statements" of the novel. I think, by the way, we're all struggling right along with the author as she tries to do too much -- showing us Trudi's emotional development and at the same time dealing with the dangerous apathy of the townspeople as well as the various attitudes of the Jewish citizens who are beginning to feel the persecution more keenly.

However, I'm still trying to trace Trudi's life story as a separate strand -- to notice the steps by which a single individual matures. As you have done in your post, being specific makes the comment more meaningful to other readers.In trying to comment about the novel in a general way, I find there's a risk of falling into cliches such as "respecting diversity," "coming to terms," etc., etc.

I've been hoping for additional comments from readers about the questions that came to my mind as I read this segment. By Thursday I will be tempted to answer my own questions!

Ros

Well, Ros, better you to answer your questions than me, but I'm going to give a couple of them a shot, anyway.

Finally got back in here. I'm thinking about it all the time, but when I look in there's somebody with some great ideas, and I have to go away and think again. I like that.

Ruth: I'm glad to see you back! And you've had the experience of knowing a child with...is it called dwarfism? in person. I think, in retrospect, Gertrude must have been a little unhinged to start with for such a severe reaction.

Russ: that's an interesting thought: they all spin off of Trudi the center? I think I've been trying to figure out just what the book is revolving around. As I read it now, I do see Trudi juxtaposed in almost every event...

This section begins a part of the book that I found very difficult to read. Hegi herself says at one point that Bergdorf was like a fairy-tale town due to the Unknown Benefactor that they all thought would protect them....then we have the escalating horror: the May 10 burning of books, contrasted with Trudi's first kiss, the appearance of the brown shirts. As Ella said, everyone was feeling more prosperous at first, ...and the Nazis said if it had not been for the Jews (page 195) "their own positions would have been more stable....Jews were described as a political problem...Though they would have never voted to kill the Jews, they felt justified in expressing their resentment against Jews, in letting them know their place."

Now, why would people resort to such prejudice when they were feeling their happiest and most prosperous?

And it just keeps getting worse... The accusations, the attacks.

I thought that Michel Abramowitz had some good reasons for not wanting to leave. He explained on page 211 that he was 53, did not want to give up his legal practice and all he'd worked for, told of colleagues who weren't able to practice law. I was able to see my husband in that place (although he's not an attorney) and to understand why he stayed. How many of US would leave our homes?? Would you have? Was there any precedent for what continued to happen?

I thought, in answer to question # 4 above, that Leo Montag showed himself an homorable man in these passages, buying Herr Stosick's car at a proper price to help him out, standing up to the pharmacist, etc. As the saying goes, "He that is faithful in a little is faithful in much," and Leo proved himself faithful throughout. Mrs. Weiler also stepped in and saved a child from a mob, even though she was arrested for it. As the book goes on, I found lots of people to admire, secrets or no. Hegi says in one part of the section we're reading today: "No one was entirely of one thing. Cowards could be courageous in some matters, and love was not always declared and might not be pure love, but mixed in with hate and fear..."(page 168). I think Hegi is determined to show us the good and evil in all of us- to what end I hope you'll all tell me.

Ros: you had mentioned earlier in one of your questions something about Hegi's being a native of Germany. Is this translated from the German? I seem to note some stilted phrases here and there.

I think Hegi does a marvelous job of recreating, from the base of her fairy tale town, the creeping hate and dread, and the little transformations of character that took place among the people. These middle chapters are very moving and frightening, as the reader struggles each time to fit himself into the narrative, and wonder what HE would have done. How can anybody not?

Has anyone read any interview with Hegi which indicates what research she put into this? Are any of these people real?? Did she lose anyone in the war?

Throughout all this, the townspeople practiced the "silence that they were familiar with, a silence nurtured by fear and complicity that would grow beyond anything they could imagine.." (page 239).

Why should Trudi care? Why shouldn't she?

Ginny

Ginny - Yes, I found myself thinking and wondering what I would do in (a) if I were a Jew under these circumstances; and (b) if I were not a jew? Would I be cowardly and justify my cowardice someway or would I rebel and rage against circumstances (Trudi's way). Don't think any of us know ourselves that well underneath unless we are confronted with a like situation (and Heavens, hope we never are). I've only been terrified once in my life and I will never forget it - it turned out fine - but I froze, absolutely froze, and couldn't move! I know what it means to be "paralyzed by fear."

I may not be able to post next week as my daughter will be here from out of town until the 31st and we have many plans and then company on Christmas Day. But I have almost finished the book - which was wonderful reading in the second half - and if it is all right, I will make my comments late. Happy Holidays to my fellow Book Club participants! Ros, thanks for your great discussion ideas!!!

Ella and Ginny two partial comments on some of your q's & a's:

According to the jacket blurbs on all her publications, Hegi was born in Germany and educated there until age 18. When I posed my original question about awkwardness of style, I hadn't yet read her other novels. The earliest one, Intrusions, was a typical late-1970's-early 1980's, trapped-housewife-who-wants-to-be-a-writer story, not original but quite amusing in parts, and written in impeccable English, both formal and colloquial, with no hint of an ongoing mental translation. In fact, it contains several humorous paragraphs in German which are then translated into perfect English.

Salt Dance, which followed Stones, is also clearly written. I didn't care much for it.

Incidentally, Ella, in Intrusions there are some funny interpolations of an imaginary dialogue with another would-be writer who keeps trying to force Hegi to add red-hot sex stuff (which she spells out quite explicitly) to her plot. She resists!

We have been casually acquainted for several years with a German-born couple somewhat younger than we are, and have always exchanged superficial social conversation without ever touching on past events in Germany. Last night it occurred to me to ask whether they had read Stones. The wife had read it and volunteered that she found it quite authentic.

In the next half-hour I learned that her father had been a Protestant minister who formed part of a very quiet underground resistance movement. He and his colleagues feared Hitler's rise to power from the first moment he became known in politics. As a child, she used to listen to the BBC German broadcasts which were played secretly in many homes. It was the only way they learned what was really happening instead of the constant "victory" propaganda broadcast by the government. She said she lived in constant fear that the family's activities would be discovered. Her brother, who always opposed Nazism, was forced to enter military service and was killed in the unsuccessful Russian campaign. Her father was required to pray for victory each Sunday in church, but she said he always spoke of "our country" and "our soldiers" rather than mentioning Hitler's hated name.

Christians who were found to be opposing Hitler in any way were imprisoned, sent to camps, or driven out of the country. As a consequence the fine secondary schools and theological seminaries in the country lost most of their qualified staff except those who were willing to support the Nazis.

This couple, who lived in different parts of the country as children, both remembered how fearful ordinary citizens became as they saw the punishment imposed on anyone who was believed to be criticizing the government, let alone anyone who actively opposed Hitler. Leo's comments about "speaking in whispers" evidently were true. Nevertheless there were acts of bravery which, he said, were simply never talked about.

Ros

I questioned what the Burgdorf folk did about the rising tide of Nazism. Some of them did what they could, but did it very quietly because of the constant spying by "the others" and the fear that they would be reported and imprisoned or otherwise punished. Several examples of the underground resistance are given in the next segment.

As for the fact that many Jews remained until it was too late to leave, there were many reasons.

It's important to recognize that German Jews were not segregated in ghettoes or "within the pale" like Eastern European Jews. They were assimilated into the community geographically and in their vocations and there was relatively little overtly expressed prejudice against them.

Jews did not deny their identity or conceal their religious heritage, but there was a 20% rate of intermarriage in the early 1930's. Germany, in fact, was the birthplace of Reform Judaism, a liberalized interpretation that substituted German for Hebrew in some of the rituals and supported relaxation of the strict dietary laws and other practices because it was believed that these interfered with integration into the greater community.

Jews supported social and political reform but were also strongly nationalistic; they were not only soldiers but leaders and strategists in World War I, and made up a substantial proportion of the German professional, cultural, and scientific leaders from the 19th century onward.

Little wonder then that the first stirrings of anti-Semitic action aroused disbelief as well as fear. Surely it would all end soon. Surely people would not believe what Hitler was saying.

Some people left quickly, others waited longer. At first they went to France, the Netherlands, or Poland -- wrong choices for the future. Later, many went to the United States, some to England, Palestine, the Orient.

Leaving was expensive: As time went by, Jewish possessions were seized, so their assets were diminished. Passage by train and ship was expensive, bribes were needed, and they had to prove ability to support themselves or else obtain sponsorship in order to be admitted to another country. Before long, other countries, including the United States, were restricting immigration. Eventually it was too late. The policy of driving the Jews out of the country had changed to the policy of capturing them and exterminating them.

Ros

What was the turning point in Trudi's feelings about other people's problems? The strongest incident I could find was her rage when Frau Eberhardt was turned in by her own son and was sent away to prison. Perhaps it was like a confirmation of the uneasiness she sensed about Helmut Eberhardt when he was only an infant.

Trudi still had to deal with her thwarted romantic feelings about Klaus Malter, even to the extent of telling herself that his child, after he married Jutta, should really have been her (Trudi's) child because that one impulsive kiss convinced her that Klaus was secretly in love with her. That seemed to be offered as a pitiable example of her emotional immaturity, an extension of the fantasies she built on nothing, comforting herself with stories about what might have been until she believed that they should have been.

Ros

Ella: We sure will miss you, will look forward to your posts: just a veritable avalanche of pent up stuff!!

Ros: how fascinating to hear from your friends about Germany. I thought Stephen Spielberg's idea of a video history most impressive and important. So many conflicting emotions, and we all hope, as Ella said, that we'd be strong...but, as she also said, you never know.

I've always thought I'd be cool in crisis, and, indeed, have had a gun pointed at me, although probably in foolishness by a driver along side the road, and he mimicked pulling the trigger, and stupid me actually turned the car around to go GET him. Stupid thing. Before I could get back there, reason took over, but no police to be seen.

But the terror that the Jews of Germany endured at this time was beyond any momentary thing: it was constant and horrid. Like a witch hunt.... just more than imaginable...Don't know how anyone lived through it, and don't know how anyone not being persecuted could be unaware that something very wrong was happening. Especially with those trains.

I had such a hard time reading that, and was, frankly, annoyed to find poor little Trudi's worrying over Klaus's kiss intersperced with all this serious stuff...I guess the point was that life, after all, went on.

A serious book with serious themes...still am not sure why Hegi made Trudi a dwarf, or whether Trudi would really have escaped?

Ginny

Hello...Just wanted to let those that emailed and asked, know that I still alive. Just a lot bogged under. As I read the recent posting I see that you are a lot further along than I am but I may jump back in at some point. I still work a 40 hour week and am trying to copy with Christmas too sooooooooo

Jeanine, not to worry about falling behind, everyone is hopelessly (or delightfully) busy right now. So we'll just fill in the gaps with a summary of important events and hope that when people have caught their breaths after the holidays we can mop up the remaining details about Stones with a grand free-for-all of opinion-sharing.

Good wishes, think about the BC even if you don't post -- and may 1998 start out for you with happiness and good health.

Ros

I've read to the point where Trudi and Leo are talking to Frau Eberhardt in the library. Her son has just played a foolish "chicken" game. I believe her son my have joined Hitler's youth soilders.......

Back where Trudi was discovered at the swimming hole and taken back to the barn. For some reason it really bothered me that Trudi kept it to herself. Although I am fully aware that back then this would not have been discussed. I also got the feeling that Hegi was suggesting Trudi may have the same mental problem as her mother.......?

Up early this am, so had to pop in for a few moments - Ros: all that you said so interesting. This German couple you talked to - they were very brave for being part of the underground. Would have liked to ask them this - Did the German people know that the Jews were being put to death in gas chambers or mass graves? In Hegi's book they certainly knew about the KZ's and, of course, the train that came through town was pitable, but can't remember reading where they commented on the "gassing" of the Jews, etc. What an awful time to live through - for America also, of course. My husband was in WW II and was in the South Pacific in the Navy - he still will not buy any Japanese products if he can help it. And my brother-in-law was wounded fighting the Germans - it will take another generation or two in both countries before acceptance of each other can fully take place, I think. I'm sure the Germans must cringe everytime another movie or book comes out about the Jews and the gas chambers during the war. Wonder what they teach their children in the schools about the history of the war.

All I have time for now - this is what is wonderful about discussing books, as we all can relate someway or other our own experiences as they come to mind! Love all your comments. Back later--

Hello everyone, I am so far behind in this discussion. Just finished reading the last few posts.

Too many generations have come and gone and we are still fighting the Civil War in the US, Catholics & Protestants in Ireland, Moslems, Catholics, Protestants in Serbia, Arabs & Jews in the Middle East, etc. I don't think we have learned a thing from history. How many times must we repeat these terrible atrocities? People are people and we must learn to accept them with all their virtues and faults.

Hope to catch up with you all soon. I have read the book, but had to give up on the discusstion while trying to get Christmas together.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS,

Jimmie

Jimmie, Ella, Jeanine, and others who have posted this week-- insights emerge with each new chapter! For those of us who remember the war years, they seem far, far in the past, yet we are reliving some of them in this discussion.

We seem to be agreed that for all its flaws, the content and subject of Stones from the River give us much to think about as we contemplate (with horror) these dreadful acts of cruelty and also (with admiration) the acts of courage and humanity as bystanders become participants in the struggle.

Set against these global concerns, Trudi's painful coming of age seems trivial; yet in a way don't you think her story fits into the larger story, as she is forced to move outside her self-involvement and begin to think and act helpfully toward others? Isn/t that part of what "coming-of-age" means?

No, I didn't get to the point of asking about the German people's awareness of the camps and the exterminations -- it seemed somehow intrusive. I've seen a map of the locations of the camps. If I can find it I'll see how close it was to the areas where they grew up.

Ros

Ros, I agree with your meaning of "coming-of-age". I think in our youth we are all pretty much self involved. In my opinion, Trudi does learn to be kind and thoughtful. The cruelty in Trudi is a way of coping with her challenge to be like others. The people in the town are afraid of the gossip she spreads and in her mind, I think that make her feel equal or powerful.

The people that have gone through terrible wars, my hat goes off to them. None of us know what we would do until faced with bad situations. (Ginny, glad your situation turned out okay.)

Wish I had more time, but the Season keeps calling for me to get busy.

Jimmie

I have a hard time deciding whether or not I like Trudi as a person. I can realize that she would feel like fighting back out of resentment because she knows she is different from other people. The only way she has of fighting is to know and carry gossip about other socalled normal persons. I paid little attention to things that were happening so far away. We didn't have television to constantly remind us as we do now. We married in 1938 and had two children soon after that so I am afraid I selfishly thought only of the concerns of children and how to make such a small paycheck cover every thing for the family. If Trudi had only taken advantage of her gift of a beautiful voice or her wonderful imagination to write but those things seem to have been wasted. I still have about one third of the book to read and am anxious to see what happens to her. I find her father strange also.

Jimmie, try as I may, I can never quite figure out just what Hegi means when she talks about Trudi's story-telling. She seems to be portraying her as more than just a neighborhood gossip. Someone suggested to me in a recent conversation that people were careless about what they said in Trudi's presence because her small size made her a "marginal" person to them, almost invisible, like a servant or a child, who really didn't count. By keeping her ears open Trudi learned a lot that people didn't realize they were telling her. I think you're correct about her using her knowledge as power. In an earlier post you referred to the dreadful times that the novel is set in. This becomes more and more evident chapter by chapter, doesn't it? And we do see Trudi finally overcoming some of her anger and spurred to positive action

Celia, we are all having a hard time deciding about Trudi as a "person." Hegi seems to have started out creating a character we could sympathize with, but not empathize with. Later Trudi's negatives outweigh the positives, but then she gradually becomes -- if not kinder -- then more altruistic as she realizes she must involve herself in the fate of others in more ways than just gossiping about them.

Ros

Wow, couldn't believe my eyes at all the posts! It's the 21st and the holidays, too! This is definitely a mark of our excellence as a whole as a Book Club, and our Ros's astute leading us on (know she doesn't want compliments, but, you know me)!

Jeanine, SO glad to see you again, my goodness...so many interesting thoughts always from you. WHY did it bother you that Trudi kept it to herself? Wonder why she did? Of course, her mother was dead. Wonder if she sensed her father would do nothing? I'm with Celia about Dad; but want to hear more before I commit.

Which of these characters do you all think so far is the most realistic??

Ella: I thought a long time about your post. Some time ago we had officials from Japan here to study grapes....I wondered about several things relating to protocol. But isn't it true, that in Japan and in Germany, there is precious little being taught about (in Japan) Japan's actions in the war, and (in Germany) the horrors that occurred? Is that the best way to handle that, or, will it, as Jimmie says, just repeat itself again?

Jimmie: I thought you just had a wonderfully insightful comment about Trudi: that she coped with her cruelty for failing to be like the others. That's the first time Trudi has seemed even slightly real to me.

Celia: I agree. I've had such a time with the character of Trudi. I just can't identify with her.

Why are you called a Guest?? Are you Celia's sister in disguise??

How do you find her father strange?? The photos?

Ros: Hegi herself says several times that Trudi was so "marginal" that she was able to overhear conversations and also inerpret and enlarge on them. I still maintain she had nothing going for her but intuition and imagination...

I don't know WHY I'm having such a hard time with poor Trudi. Are you all able to relate to her??

Ginny

Hi all, yes, Ginny, I can relate to her, but I don't know why exactly, except that I empathize with her feeling of aloneness or isolation. To me, her coping tactics of gossip and listening carefully from the background seems like a very normal means of handling her situation. Also, when she keeps her rape or near rape to herself, that too seems reasonable based on what I have read of other women's reactions to such a trauma. In the past, few women were brave enough to file charges for a rape, or even report one. Supposedly, the victim feels guilty and/or shamed by the whole thing. It has only recently come out of the closet, so to speak, with support groups and counseling, etc.

Also, re the German's knowledge of the death camps. From what I have gathered, no German will admit knowing that they were anything but prisons, even if they lived within smell of the crematoriums! I had a German exchange student in class a few years ago. She was very intelligent, but she argued both with me and the history teacher about the cause of WW II. She insisted that the Germans were just fighting in defense of their country and that the Allies had actually started the war! So much for their honest teaching of history.

I really felt that this book, while not perfect, offers a lot to the thoughtful reader. Consequently, I passed my copy on to my daughter this weekend. Hope I don't need to go back and reread. TTYL Sharon

Although I am lo these many months totally occupied with work and "the flood", I have been following your wonderfully interesting discussion as I am able.

My husband was in the U.S.Army in 1955. His role was that of a photographer, stationed in Germany. He and a buddy set off to visit the remains of the camp at Dachau. They carried with them all of their photographic equipment. When they arrived at the town and inquired (in the language of the country) as to the location and directions...no one was able to help them. "They didn't know". Well, eventually they made their way to the remains of the camp. Not one picture was ever taken, they were each too totally horrified by what they saw and were able to imagine. Do we learn from these unspeakable times in our history..not enough I think. I don't believe the Germans had a lock on this sub-human behavior. We continue to see the tragedy of man's ability to either eradicate or ignore other humans either deliberately or through neglect. In Germany it was the magnitude, the deliberate intent of the Nazis to exterminate a whole people.

As for rape victims not reporting. It is VERY common. Many of them feel guilt, shame and there is usually that nagging question,"What did I do to make it happen? What should I have done differently? I have heard this time and again even in the most blatant cases.

As the season is upon all of us,please let me take this opportunity to wish all of you the happiest of holidays. I have missed being a part of the group and hope to rejoin you all one of these days. We've moved back into our home and now it is the unpacking and setting it right.

Happy Holidays to one and to all! ( Ros, you are doing a fantastic job with this book!

I haven't read the book but have been following the very interesting discussion. Just want to wish everyone a

MERRY

CHRISTMAS!

Ginny, made it BIGGER but still not middled.

Eileen Megan

Eileen,

I centered the above for you.

Larry

I don't know why I am identified as a "guest user". Must have clicked the wrong button. Some how I got the same message on twice..Oh well. These machines are mysterious machines and I have a lot to learn. Reading the book has brought back many memories. I worried that my young husband would have to go to war but he had an important job helping build B29s and had two small children so I guess that kept him out of it. We are so comfortable in our country that we isolate ourselves from the terrible things that are going on elsewhere. I found Trudi's father sweet, understanding and ineffectual. He got his kicks by flirting with the ladies but going only so far. Every one is having such a hard time but they still they seem to be able to spend he money to get what they want , like fabrics for Trudi to sew into a new wardrobe.

The events in the outside world begin to overwhelm the townspeople of Burgdorf, and as can be seen in the chronology, those events are soon to overwhelm our own world. Many of us have vivid recollections of this time, as your contributions are demonstrating.

As Hegi constructed the story, when 14-year-old Trudi was attacked (short of rape) by the town boys, she didn't tell anyone, partly because she had been swimming in secret and had been where she "didn't belong,", partly because of feelings of shame and guilt over her own sexual arousal, partly because she didn't want to upset her father (who, as several people have pointed out, was fairly passive and would stew over it but not do much)...and partly because it is important to the plot that no one should think that Trudi had had any kind of sexual experience. In terms of real life, I don't find it at all unusual that she confided in no one. Besides, sexual matters weren't openly discussed at that time.

Sharon, your encounter with the German exchange student must have been as painful for you as it was for her. The idea of the death camps, let alone living near them, is intolerable and unthinkable. Maybe pretending they didn't exist was the only way people could stand it. And, ironically, it could have been argued that the Allies "started the war" -- after all, if they had permitted Hitler's forces to overrun half of Europe in search of the "living space" the German people needed, there might not have been a war -- only something much worse? I'm not defending the Axis cause, only suggesting that governments and individuals sometimes find strange ways of explaining away life's contradictions.

Helen (welcome back!), I agree that we can find many examples of humanity's failure to learn from horrible examples, some of them quite close to home. Your husband's visit to Dachau must have been a living nightmare.

As Celia recalls, personal and family concerns often numb our sensitivity to troubles in the outside world -- unless or until those troubles come home to us in some way.

I have to admit that from the very beginning, when Hegi endowed Trudi with those magic powers, I've never been able to think of her as a real person, so I've never identified with her in any way. Her story has its poignant moments, of course, but she remains a fictional creation to me.

Ros

Hegi sketches in the superstitious fears of the townspeople as another flood encroaches. Is she also using this metaphor of Nature's wrath to foreshadow the human destructiveness that we are now to read about?

Preceded by the less violent Jewish Boycott and other discriminatory acts, the "Kristallnacht" of November 1938 marked the beginning of organized (meaning planned, encouraged, and incited nationwide) violence against Jews.

Storm Troopers, aided by ordinary citizens, burned or tore down 191 Jewish houses of worship. In a book of over 800 pages, Martin Gilbert's The Holocaust (copyright 1985 by Holt, Rinehart & Winston) records both authentic documents and the personal testimony of countless survivors. An example (pages 68-73) cited from the November outbreak was the typical destruction of a synagogue in which both Storm Troopers and ordinary citizens tore up the sacred religious objects and tossed them back and forth in the street, smashed the glass and tore down the walls, while the children stamped the fragments of Torah into the mud and threw stones at the stained-glass windows.

A few days later, reports Gilbert, a Lutheran pastor in another part of Germany who preached against this destruction was dragged out and beaten. His vicarage residence was destroyed and he went to prison.

Jews, including a number of rabbis, were arrested and beaten. Some were taken to concentration camps and beaten further. At one camp (Sachsenhausen, north of Berlin), twelve Jews died from beatings.

The destruction of property was enormous, not only the shattered glass, smashed shops, broken objects, but the fires, trampled earth and debris in the streets. It was decided that Jews were really to blame for all of this, so they were fined a thousand million marks, to be collected by confiscating 20% of the property of every Jew.

Not long after this, German Jewish children were barred from German schools.

Ros

You know, you might think this book is not very good holiday reading, not very cheerful or such. I found myself thinking of it this morning, how fortunate we are, as we read these comments from the safety of our homes, to live in such peace and prosperity as we now do. How grateful I am, and I do think it's important not to ever forget.

Today is the first day of Hanukkah, and Thursday is the First Day of Christmas, and so I do wish all of you the very best now and in the coming year.

Helen: am so glad to see you posting again, and want to hear all about your new house decorating.

I really like that question #2 above, want to think on it a bit, and agree this discussion is one of our best ever.

Now, look in, everyone, on December 26th, for a nice surprise and a chance to win a free book!! Don't miss this one!!

Ros: I do like that foreshadowing idea! I also see by the heading above we should now be on Chapter 11-14, so will grab the book, look for those chapters, and think on #2, and be back asap!

Meanwhile, I wonder if any of YOU have a friend or neighbor who lived in Germany at this time who might be willing to address us or chat with us or even tell you something you might want to share with us?

Also keep in mind the little known fact of the Japanese Camps of the same nature....so, as Helen says, this bestiality can occur in all of us. I'm sure nobody who ever read the recent , I think it was Newsweek account of their subhuman behavior will ever forget it. Nauseating....this was the Japanese vs the Chinese.

I'm not sure if Hegi is saying that big things come from little actions, and it's the little things that count, by using LITTLE Trudi throughout.

Ginny

Larry, When I first looked in today I thought a miracle happened! Thanks for centering it.

Eileen Megan

We've all wondered what kind of danger might have faced Trudi because of her physical condition. I found no specific reference to Christian dwarfs; but on page 689 of Gilbert's The Holocaust there is this chilling reference to the iniquitous medical experimenter Mengele:

"Jews and Gypsies had both been chosen by [Dr. Josef] Mengele for the ultimate senseless and barbaric suffering. As well as twins, he also selected Jews with physical deformities, hunchbacks and dwarfs in particular.... Among the Jews who reached Birkenau from Hungary in the summer of 1944 [was a family with} 7 dwarfs and three children of normal height,... the Ovitch family, who had been famous in the pre-war European music halls. Forty years later the eldest of the dwarfs, Elizabeth Moshkovitz, who was nineteen years old in 1944, explained how, when the family reached the selection at the railway ramp, Mengele did not believe that the "little people" were Jewish. On discovering that they were, he became "very excited" and was overheard to say: " I now have work for the next 20 years."

Later, as Elizabeth Moshkovitz recalled, Mengele personally rescued the dwarfs from inside a gas-chamber.... to keep them for his experiments. These included injecting into the womb, and the pulling out of their healthy teeth..... The three who were of normal height were allowed to live to serve their little brothers and sisters. All of them survived."

Gilbert adds that SS officers and camp guards were brought by bus and car to view the whole family, who were exhibited naked at the SS hospital. Besides being displayed on a pedestal, the dwarfs were expected to perform circus acts; and, according to the sister who reported, were sexually abused.

This singling out of dwarfs touches on the pro-Aryan fear of the almost mythical attributes of the dwarf. Might it not have been only a short step from this maltreatment of Jewish victims to gathering up Christians with physical anomalies for "experimentation" or "extermination" in the name of Aryan purity?

Ros

Well, here we are, on Christmas Eve, and I did so want to send you all a cyber card, but am not clever enough, so will do it here:

A very Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah to all of you. I hope this holiday season and 1998 too will bring you the greatest joy and the happiest year you've ever had.

I'm so grateful for every one of you, and so glad we've met! Have a wonderful holiday, (and look in the Books and Lit on the 26th for some surprises!)

Love,

Ginny

Happy Holidays!!

Winter Wonderland

Wishing you peace and happiness throughout the coming year!

Boots

Here is poem that my son sent to me. Thought you might enjoy it. Computer Prayer

Every night I lie in bed This little prayer inside my head...

God Bless my mom and daddy And bless my little boy And take care of my husband He brings me so much joy. And God there's just one more thing I wish that You would do If You don't mind me asking, To just bless my "puter too?? Now I know that its not normal To bless a small machine But listen just a second And I'll try to explain... You see, that little metal box Holds more that odds and ends. Inside those small components Rest a hundred loving friends. Some, it's true, I'v never seen And most I'v never met; We've never shaken hands Or ever truly hugged, and yet, I know for sure they love me By the kindnesses they give, And this little scrap of Metal Is how I get to where they live By faith is how I know them' Much the same as I know you, I share in what life brings them So if it's OK with you... Just take an extra minute From Your duties up above bless this little hunk of steel That's Filled with so much love.

Author unknown.

Celia,, I wish that great verse didn't end with "author unknown"! Could you possibly find the source or a little more about it? It's just great that your son sent it on to you, meaning the understands us! Could he possibly have been the secret poet? It's such a delightful expression of the way we feel -- I know I do.

I can't count the number of times I've tried to explain Seniornet to my non-computing senior friends. "What do you mean, online book club? You're writing to all these people all over the world and you've never met them? And never will? But how... But why... But when...?"

More than once I've been reassured, comforted, amused, snapped out of a mood, by a friendly online message. And the awareness that the little hunk of metal is helping us keep our minds active makes it really "bless-worthy." If there's no such word, I've just coined it.

Well, Celia, if you're going to keep on being a "Guest," I want you to know you're a welcome one. Best wishes for the holiday and the New Year.

Ros

I've puzzled over the role of Helmut Eberhardt's betrayal of his mother. Possibly it was neither all personal nor entirely political. We've read that in a totalitarian state, young people are actually trained to turn in their parents if it seems that the latter are working against the state, or even not fully supporting the state. Did Helmut's pride in his Nazi leadership position liberate him from his mother's domination? As an "important" personage himself, he could now use his patriotism justify encroaching on her property and her rights. Hitler played on the child's age-old struggle for autonomy by appealing to the young in order to override the doubts and hesitations of the old, and glossing over the fact that the youths were actually replacing parental control with control by the state.

Ros

It's Christmas night...the presents are open, the family's been fed and everyone is quietly doing his own thing...to the strains of "Away in a manger"...

I thought I'd peek in here, and found Celia's poem, and Ros' reponse. I give a whole-hearted second to the sentiments expressed! You are all friends...even if our paths never cross. I know you from what you regularly pour out from your minds and hearts! How better can you know anyone?

MERRY CHRISTMAS, DEAR FRIENDS!

Give Yourself The Gift of Reading!

And a bright good morning on what the British call "Boxing Day," in which small gifts are commonly given to friends! Here are TWO gifts for you this morning:

1). We've a new folder in the Books and Literature. Have you got some books at home you no longer have room for? List them with us, in the Book Exchange! There they will appear until somebody might want them....the entire cost: within the US, $1.25 book rate for up to a pound (that's a BIG BOOK)....

The Book Exchange

List what you have you'd like to see go to a good home. List what you've got. Let's share. I've put a few in the heading to start us off....Here's a chance to read some new ones for a dollar, and make some more room on your shelves!!

2) Starting on New Year's Day, the Book Club Online will begin a practice of having a contest (this one is guess the number: but wait till you see WHAT NUMBER??) and win a Book! (Many thanks to Marie Click for this clever idea)...This New Year's Day, the prize is the wonderful Road From Coorain the March Book Club Online selection about a childhood on a sheep farm in Australia. It's about dogged courage and determination. It's short, and well written, and explains those huge Austrailan farms. Do try, and join us there!!

So come look in, list or select a book, guess a number on New Year's Day in the Book Club Online, and a very merry season to you all!

Ginny

I am overjoyed of your news that I'm already a member of your book club. It is just the joy of a little boy upon waking up one christmas morning to find a toy beside him. Thank you and I hope I could contribute some interesting ideas to the club.

Dante

Dante: WE are just DELIGHTED to see you here, our newest Member, and look forward to hearing all your comments and insights!

As you are in the Phillipines, you join our truly international club, with members in New Zealand, the Riviera, Norway, Canada, and the U.S.

What fun to talk to people all over the world.

Boots: thank you so much for that, made my day.

Celia: Whoever wrote that knew what they were talking about. That's how I feel, too. Thank you for that.

Ros: I KNOW what you're saying!! "AN ONLINE BOOK CLUB????" WHAT??

All I can say is people don't know what they're missing. I just love it, and have more Christmas cards around my doorway this year than ever before, cause our online folks are real, they're smart, and they're the kind of people you are grateful you know.

HOW would we all have met?? Do you all realize our paths would probably never have crossed? And here we are, I feel we are a big group of friends, sitting around discussing books and other stuff. Love it.

And some of us DID meet, at the SeniorNet Wilmington Conference last June! And we all had a ball, and liked each other immensely...

This whole experience is a gift, and I for one, am so grateful for it!

Now, I see by the schedule above we're to be in Chapters 11-14, and so back tomorrow to attempt to answer Question # 2.

Ginny

Isn't there a kind of poetic justice in finding out that Klaus Malter was fickle? He threw over his first fiancee -- who remained unmarried -- and fell for the mercurial and free-spirited Jutta, who kept him on his toes forever after. So even if, in Trudi's wildest dreams, she had temporarily won his affection, it couldn't have lasted. She could tell herself that. And she found herself won over by Jutta's artistic talent and her genius for going against Burgdorf's expectations.

Politically, might it be another example of a new, adventurous German spirit as embodied by Jutta, overcoming the stodginess and conservatism of the old German spirit that was defeated by the war? I'm not sure about that at all, it's just a speculation. Any ideas?

Have I heard you say that you're getting just a bit weary of Trudi? Yeah. Well, here comes a dollop of sex to awaken our flagging interest. This strange, possibly nerdish, even somewhat goofy man will not be turned away. Politically liberal, and so visually handicapped that we never know if he sees her physical body clearly, he sees something in her that appeals to him. Eventually Trudi is convinced that he's attracted to her, even though he knows about her spiteful trick when they first met. And then, fade to the ocean crashing on the shore, or the Rhein crashing on the stones, and we can imagine the rest.

What's the payoff here? Max's affection and her own sexual gratification have simply knocked that stony chip off Trudi's shoulder. (Another "stone" symbol?) She can stop doing mean things and channel some of that energy into helping others. How about it, girls? We've heard many times before about what a woman really needs. Hmm.

Ros

A stony chip?? More stones yet! I, for one, didn't really see much in his kiss, and wasn't sure why Trudi was going on and on about it??

I mean, we all remember our first kiss? Did we all think that meant marriage? I sure didn't. Maybe I kissed a frog on my way to the Prince.

Or maybe it once again reflects Trudi's feeling of being outside?? Have I missed something here? It's not as if something serious had passed between them!

If I can get BACK in here today, (slow for you, too??) some thoughts on 11-14....

Ginny

Ginny, I think the fact that Trudi built so much fantasy on that quick impulsive kiss was intended as a marker of her extreme emotional immaturity. Everyone fantasizes throughout life - daydreaming, woolgathering, telling ourselves stories with a happy ending - but as in Trudi's case, when there is no reality to fill the gaps, fantasy is blown out of proportion.

An ironic memory has teased my consciousness throughout this book. In my early working days I had a close friend and mentor who, though not a dwarf, was well below average height and, though far from ugly, was not especially attractive. She yearned for love but she was unrealistically selective about social contacts. She confided many of her romantic fantasies to me. When Ed and I married, she continued to be brightly friendly though she never referred to my him by name but always spoke of him as "your little husband." At the time we were preparing to leave Chicago, she was having some dental work done, and she told me about her conviction that the dentist was in love with her and that she had felt him gently touching the top of her head as a sign of affection. We had a sporadic correspondence and I used to call her when we came to town. After a year or so, I had a letter from her, saying that I shouldn't be alarmed because I wouldn't be hearing from her for a long time. I shrugged this off as another of her unique ways of being rejecting, and tossed the letter away. A month or so later, shortly before her fortieth birthday, my friend left the sleeping toddler for whom she was baby-sitting and walked into the icy January waters of Lake Michigan. Her body was found some weeks later -- and was identified by her dental work.

Ros

I am glad you enjoyed the poem that my son sent. I will ask him where he got it and if he could possibly discover the author,s name. I thought it fitted our book club perfectly. ROS...Thank you for your message. I am on the roster but I have forgotten my pass word. I sent a message to a place that is supposed to find forgotten passwords hoping they can help me, but so far no answer. I must have had one to get on the roster. Hope every one is having a wonderful time with family and friends and that they have a Happy and Healthy New Year.

Ros, your friend sounded a lot like Trudi in her fantasy about love. Such a tragic ending.

I will re-read ch. 11-14 and join in on the discussion now that Christmas is over. Hope life gets back to what is normal for me.

Jimmie

We all know about the anti-Semitism in Germany, but I was not aware that it was quite so pronounced elsewhere. My sister was in Poland for 14 months, with the Peace Corps. This was only five years ago. She said that the Poles are so anti-Semitic that "if Jesus Christ himself walked down the street they would run him out of town." It's only fair to add that this is HER opinion and I have no way of verifying her statement.

I must get back to "Stones". I was just getting into the action part...Trudi has just taken in her first refugees...and had to lay the book aside for more mundane matters. Maybe tomorrow...

Katie

Celia, I've always wondered what the "lost password" option would lead to. I've lost my Netscape password and can't ever retrieve any mail, but when I searched the handbook it seemed as if it was a hopeless case - I might have to re-enroll or something. I haven't given up yet, just looking for the next place to try. Maybe I wrote it down on the back of a "Help" printout or someplace like that. You know how it is when you put something in a really, really safe place, and then can't remember what that safe place was.

Jimmie, yes, I thought the resemblance was ironic, and it reinforced my impression that Trudi was still emotionally immature, as was my friend although she was brilliant and functioned very well in her work.

Katie, I can understand what your sister was expressing. We do know of numerous humanitarian, life-saving acts by individual Poles during the Holocaust even though there was widespread official anti-Semitism. I suspect that most Poles today (as individuals) would be civil to Jews in everyday contacts but might not ordinarily wish to socialize with them. They might keep their feelings to themselves, refraining from much public expression of anti-Semitism, but any such feelings might emerge, for example, in conversations with others who in their opinion shared the same prejudice. In other words, they behave like Americans, who do not discriminate publicly or legally although we might have private prejudices which are very hard to get rid of.

This is my personal interpretation -- perhaps I'm wrong.

Ros

Hello to all fellow readers: As Ginny already knows, I happened on SeniorNet a few evenings back and got hooked on it; especially by this book club.
I finished reading "Stones from the River" just a 'short' while ago. I found out about this book from a newspaper list and became instantly interested upon finding out that the main character was a dwarf who helped hide Jews in Germany during the big war. I've spent a lifetime being looked down upon, literally and figuratively, since I'm less than 5 feet high. I wanted to see how another 'shorty' coped with those who 'judge a book by its cover.' (Puns and symbolism intended, BTW.)
I've also read about, and seen documentaries on, the atrocities that happened at that hideous time of human history; its heights of incredible courage and depths of cowardice. At times I've wondered what choices I would have made, having my children to protect, if I'd had to live in and through those times. I shudder at the thought.
You have been discussing this book since the end of November so, last night, I copied, pasted and printed all your messages. To paraphrase Katie, "I had to lay the pages aside for more mundane matters." Finally got time to read most of them this afternoon instead of having a nap. Your messages were fascinating and thoroughly enjoyable. They helped to sort out some things that had bothered me while I was reading the book.

Will post more later if and when I can get the computer away from the other members of my family, (retired husband and two sons, 21 and 17.)

Riel

Riel, welcome, welcome! We are all delighted to see you here. I may be prejudiced, myself, but do think we're the best! Will look forward with great expectations to all your opinions, and what you thought about Trudi!

Ros: how sad, the story of your friend. I guess it's too late to speculate on what she meant by "your little husband." I know people who use that expression :"little--"everything you have is "little." Sometimes I wonder about it.

Must reread 11-14, or my notes, anyway, and get back in tomorrow....now, Everyone, please take a guess in our new New Year's Eve contest to WIN our March selection, Road From Coorain. The contest is now open, you just guess a number and look New Year's Day to see who won....it's football numbers, but I don't care a hoot about football, but can use the book, and the joy is, I can guess, too!

Here's the URL:

New Year's Eve Contest

Ginny

Riel, welcome to this Book Club. As soon as you've completed the formidable task of plowing through all our previous comments, predictions, questions, answers, gripes, etc., we'll look forward to your sharing your own viewpoint on Trudi herself and on the various matters the book touches on. You'll agree that we've been dealing with some grim subject matter....there are few smiles and certainly no laughs in this book, let alone in the historical background....but I think we've all learned from it. So go ahead, skip a few naps -- and join us!

Ros

Hello again: Finally finished all the previous messages that you posted to this particular discussion group. I wish to add some of my impressions although it's after 1:30 a.m.here and what I type may end up clear as mud.

Like many of you, I was intrigued but puzzled by the younger Trudi. I now feel Ros is probably right about Hegi using her as the unusual narrator around which all the other characters and plots pivot. The part that I love about Trudi is her refusal to be oppressed, to be 'marginalized' as one of you put it. It has already been quoted but I feel it sums up the Trudi I love: pg.197 'For her it came far more natural to rage against circumstances than to fit herself to them.'

There were two things that bothered me in the story until I read your ideas on symbolism.
1. (pg.89)I was alarmed that a child would go off by herself, and strip naked, in order to teach herself to swim in the muddy bottomed river. (Having nobody there to rescue her in case of danger as well as the possibility of leeches and eels made my skin crawl.)
2. The way Trudi spurned Seehund after the heartless way she was treated by those 'boys'. The whole incident left a sour taste in my mouth but her treatment of the faithful old dog was the last straw.
In the first paragraph on pg. 90 it states that 'in the water she felt graceful, weightless even, and when she moved her arms & legs they felt long.' Perhaps I've gone off on a tangent, but the more I thought of the river and Seehund trying to protect her the more I saw Trudi as the German nation lulled by the 'flow' of Hitler's feel good propaganda, the boys as his crushing power towards any who dared to oppose him, and Seehund as the voice of truth that wouldn't, couldn't, enter the silent, but no longer secret, pollution. The nation finally heard the truth but they had ignored it for so long that it was now 'too little, too late' and spurned it yet again because of their shame/guilt.
On the bottom of pg.166, Leo says, "They'll only hear what they want to absorb."

My wish for the New Year is that our world will be filled with Trudis who, as Dylan Thomas wrote about old age, will "Rage, rage against the dying of the light." (I use light here to mean truth.)

Riel

Riel, at my early-morning message check I was delighted to find that you've been inoculated by the same "interpretation" bug that has had us all thinking, very productively I hope, about symbolism throughout this discussion. Thanks for your scholarly interweaving of the elements in that significant scene. Your view of Trudi is a very generous one indeed.

After the Stones folder was well launched I began looking at some of Hegi's other writings. When we get into our wind-up and evaluation phase, I hope to talk a bit about how Hegi has used these same elements in other novels.

I can picture you at 1:30 A.M., the only one awake in the cold dark house, your mind excitingly active as the ideas bubble up. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Ros

WOW, Riel, Wow wow wow!! That does explain the dog. The dog thing really bothered me, as it made no sense. I do think Hegi loses no paper over pointing out symbols in her works, and I AM impressed. Wow.

Betty Foster, Aileen from New Zealand!!, Ann Halsell, Bert Olive, Julia Klapper, Keneth Studebaker, Cam Armstrong!

I've sent you a letter, but it came back saying your address has "fatal permanent errors!" Sounds serious! I know I've just heard from several of you: do send me, at gvine@bellsouth.net, your new address, and Happy New Year to us all!

Ginny

Also, I did have a problem with that teaching herself to swim? Am I the only one?

Ginny

In these later chapters of the novel, things happen fast. Hegi adds events, births, deaths, and changes so rapidly that sometimes the consequences of an event appear without full explanation of the event itself. "Oh," she seems to be saying, "didn't I mention that? Well, it happened." In addition, the narrative viewpoint swerves from character to character. From the record of history we know that the tide of war is turning, privation and loss increase, the German civilians are losing heart. While the SS pursues Jewish extermination (the "final solution" to the Jewish problem), Trudi and her friends redouble their efforts to save lives by hiding not only the few remaining Jewish neighbors but those who come through the town as they try to escape. Here we see them representing those Germans who could not remain passive even though their own lives might be endangered. Trudi finds that the most fantastic stories she spins cannot blot out the horror of the truth she is living or the stories she hears every day from the refugees. Meanwhile her romance faces an ironic conclusion. The story, as they used to say in the serials, continues.

Ros

Ros, I am going to have to give up naps altogether to keep up with you all since I am not a night owl! HAHAHA!

Helmut Eberhardt's betrayal of his mother: He describes his mother's love as cumbersome. Perhaps this was a "stone" around his neck. I thought Helmut was the typical German youth of the day. Ready to follow Hitler to hell, which he did. He wanted order. What I found really disturbing was the fact that he thought of himself as a good Catholic.

I also do not think most of the townspeople accepted the Nazis acts against the Jews. They were afraid. Even Jewish relatives were afraid to help each other.

Martin Niemoeller wrote: "In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I am a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

This has always been an especially poignant statement to me. I think it describes the fear in all of us. Frau Abramowitz said she would rather be the persecuted than the persecuter because they would be around after the war.

Jimmie

Jimmie: what a fabulous post, if you don't mind my saying so!

Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow! It's SNOWING here in SC, Guys!! Can't find the sleigh bells, can't find the sleigh, the horse is unwilling to venture out in this, and now the puppies are about to open their eyes to their first snow!!

Good day for reading Stones by the fire, back in a mo, just had to comment on Jimmie's post and the snow.

Ginny

Larry!! Restrain yourself from shoveling everybody's walkways!!

Ginny (sorry, Clubbers, snow is an EVENT here!) The guessing, by the way, is going well for the March selection, in our New Year's Eve Win the Road From Coorain contest at the very top of the Books and Lit clickables.... Plenty of numbers left, might as well be YOU! Give it a shot!

Jimmie, you're wide awake indeed! In your eloquent post you call attention to the human tendency toward inertia - passivity - in the face of disturbing things that happen to other people. The word "accepting" has so many meanings, doesn't it? It can mean a feeble protest, a feeling of discomfort, and a failure to respond with action. Even in our democracy, where we are taught that it is the right of the people to change intolerable conditions, we have "accepted" many things for fear of the consequences of trying to initiate change. After all, we in the United States "accepted" lynchings, saying that they were terrible but not knowing what could be done about them. We "accepted" minority admission quotas at universities and minority discrimination in hiring, especially if we weren't the ones discriminated against--and sometimes even if we were. We "accepted" the countless atrocities that arose when the instantaneous violation of the 18th "Prohibition" Amendment led to the rise of a powerful criminal network that eventually controlled some cities. We're still paying the price of our "acceptances."

Ros

Well, we're really flying now! So many good points.

Jimmie: Stone around Helmut's neck? His mother? That's a clever analogy. I thought Helmut's reasoning was shattering: "Helmut became increasingly afraid that one of the neighbors would turn his mother in, and out of that fear grew the idea that it was his obligation to report her...." and he didn't think of it constantly, but one night when she refused to discuss turning over the house to him, that decided him.

I identified the most, I think, with Renate...not, of course, because she was betrayed by her own son (think of the bitterness of that...talk about your serpent's tooth) but because of the way she handled it: she went to the pear tree and remembered Helmut as a little baby, and didn't damn him, she kept her soul pure...and it just was heartbreaking. Nearly killed me. And she didn't come back. I resent that, so many others did.

I think the villagers, in their fear, hoped "it" wouldn't happen there, even though they secretly wondered if they even would be found to be Jews!! That was just incredible, and says a great deal about the mind set, the terror, the horror of the "avalanche" as Hegi calls it, of the situation...we even had....was it Helmut's wife? Wondering what would happen if SHE were found to be Jewish!

FOUND.

So I think the villagers kind of thought, well, I'm safe, I'm not Jewish...exactly what Jimmie said...then, Ros, what was the question? Why were they depressed when so many...what was that question again? And what was YOUR answer to it??

As it happens, I'm just reading a biography of Dean Martin, which does outline the beginnings of the Mafia in the US, and I'm not sure, Ros that people "accepted it," but maybe your point is that it's evil, and it took a lot of courage to stop THAT monster, too??

What DO you all think of Emil, the Unknown Benefactor? I must have missed the part where it explained why he did that??

Ginny

Ginny, of course I didn't mean that people wholeheartedly endorsed the various forms of outrage that went on. That's why I put "accepted" in quotation marks. But certainly few ordinary citizens struggled to bring about political or social change. It takes courage and persistence to fight -- and it requires overcoming the fear that activism will bring reprisals against the activists.

Remember that the Nazi party line was that Jews were responsible for Germany's ill fortune: Eliminate the Jews and all will be well; Deutschland will once again be uber alles, we'll conquer the world, prosperity will return, our enemies will fall before us. Yet here are battlegrounds on every front, sacrifices again demanded of us, our sons and husbands again marching away. Could Hitler have been wrong? Worse still, the SS is arresting - not only Jews - but people who dare to say anything against the Third Reich, or make fun of Hitler. God forbid -- Gott bewahre -- could this be 1914 all over again?

Wouldn't you be depressed?

Ros

Human nature tends to look for a scapegoat to place blame.. The Germans found that in the Jews, an industrious, hard working group. They couldn't blame themselves, so they felt the Jews were working too hard and taking their profits.

It is sad to think of the tremendous waste of talent when so many well-educated Jews were murdered.

Is it true that the Jewish religion teaches that they are to endure these tribulations and sufferings? Is that why they were reluctant to fight back or leave?

Pat / IL

Hello bibliophiles: I've been mulling over the questions up there today trying to sort out my thoughts. Instead of coming to conclusions I have impressions and feelings so will post them for you to help me in the sorting out.

Trudis changed story brought back memories of the Aesop's fables that I read as a child. It seemed to be telling Konrad that selfishness, intolerance, and prejudice would always lead to the chaos he was caught up in. Konrad seemed to grasp this when he said on pg.359, "It will change some day." In this book, Konrad seems to symbolize the small hope for a better future; he now understood why the past happened and was one of the few to safely escape it.
For a while, I thought the 'unknown benefactor' symbolized hope, until he was killed. Now he seems to represent the very few who tried to help and the other citizens who survived the war salve their consciences by deluding themselves that they actually were part of his effort. See bottom of pg.414 The people of Burgdorf liked to see themselves as accomplices of the unknown benefactor....to top of pg.415 "If it hadn't been for me, he would never have found out about the Bilder's sick dog."

Trudis release from imprisonment is a puzzler for me. When I read of her escape my first reaction was "Yeah, sure, only in the movies!" However, more pondering made me realize that there is just that kind of perversity in real life. The gestapo officer was well aware of what happened to Zwergs. On pg.381 he says, " The rules that used to temper curiosity no longer exist." At the bottom of the page he says, " You become an experiment.....a medical experiment for the almighty profession." The use of the adjective 'almighty' seems to suggest a contempt for the powers that be and this backs up the statement on pg.382...'that he didn't believe in anything or anyone.'
The story that Trudi told him with the implications that as a boy he was also on the outside looking in (standing outside the circle of children, wouldn't let him play, called him names, laughed at him) kept leading me back to the last paragraph of pg. 247 and and all of pg. 248. ending with...' she would have liked to give up all her secrets if only she could have had what she craved most deeply-the connection to others. Perhaps her story "connected" to the heart that he had covered up for so long to keep from being hurt; at least long enough to save her life.

Riel

Riel: you've touched on some things I stopped over, too. I could NOT understand why they let her go, nor why she made up the story(on page 409)about the stones! On page 382 Hegi seemed to be saying, as others have here in their posts, that Trudi used the story telling as a way to have power, "the way it gave you a strange power to let others look down on you, to let them bask in their illusion that they were better than you. That illusion was a gift-hers to grant, simply by being--a gift that turned some of them ugly and others defenseless, and therefore, useful." When I read that I thought paranoia for some reason.

I have some problems with all- seeing Trudi as a person, and that sentence isn't helping much to throw light on her character. It almost seems to imply somebody stuck in childhood bitterness.

I loved your point about how the people liked to take credit for "helping" the Unknown Benefactor. It seems he'd have never been caught except for his mad act of taking Hitler for a walk. That's hard to understand, in a town where everyone was watching.

Pat: I thought that the passage about Herr Abramovitz on page 257 went a long way in explaining why the half of the Jews who stayed, continued to stay. They couldn't get their money, which had been confiscated. Their passports were confiscated, and other countries closed their doors. That's the first, incidentally, that I heard that the US had restricted Jewish immigrants! Can that be true?

We need to see a film or documentary to cap off our experience here, or at least to have somebody come in and address us. Anybody know anyone with this horrendous experience??

One reason I'm having such a hard time drawing conclusions about this book is the multiplicity of images: metaphor, symbolism, etc., and they keep changing. There are so many meanings to everything, but doesn't seem to be a continuous symbolic thread throughout--the river seems the only consistent image to me... We're getting to the major disappointment for me in the book: on the last pages, am interested to see if I was the only one, and for you to straighten me out if I'm wrong.

Ginny

Oh, and the pear tree, of course. This is a common thread even today, isn't it? You don't need to live in a village to make connections to something like that: we've all seen it: the clock that stopped on the day he died, the pear tree that stopped bearing, etc., etc.

Does a pear tree symbolize anything in particular? Thinking of the partridge in the pear tree, for some reason.

Ginny

GINNY: You posted: That's the first, incidentally, that I heard that the US had restricted Jewish immigrants! Can that be true?
Not only true, but the Canadian government was doing the very same thing! To add insult to injury, immigration allowed war criminals to become citizens and have done little or nothing to ferret them out when somebody finally opened the can of worms.
There was an excellent documentary done about it on our CBC TV network but I can't remember what news program it was on or if it would be available in the USA.

Riel

Ginny, yes, isn't it shocking? The US didn't want "your tired, your poor, your huddled masses" any more than the other countries did. The great waves of immigration that ended in the 1920's had sensitized people to the effect that large numbers of poor, hard-working Eastern European immigrants, especially Jews, had on society. Like today's Asian immigrants, they worked 18 hours a day, lived huddled together in tenements, tried to save money, and sent their children to school so they could have a better life. But, like the Asians, they were conspicuous not only for that life style but for other practices, food, religious observance, family standards, that seemed "foreign" even to those whose experience of America was only a dozen years more. Where did you think the idea of immigration quotas came from?

There's another aspect to this reluctance to welcome Jewish refugees. Before 1940, before France and Belgium were overrun, a lot of Americans weren't sure which side they were on. (Remember too that a substantial number of Britons were willing to negotiate a peace with Hitler and let him keep what he'd seized.) Suppose Hitler did win? If the US had admitted many Jewish refugees, we'd be up bleep creek without a paddle when it came to negotiating or trading with a victorious Fuhrer.

Ros

"Behold, I have put before you blessing and curse; life and death. Choose life." (Deut. 30:19)

Pat, offhand I'm not aware of anything in Judaism that requires its adherents to suffer unnecessarily, and the quotation above seems like a distinct prohibition of voluntary martyrdom. But how difficult and painful it is to try to make sense out of this! Your challenging and compassionate message set me to thumbing through a number of translations of the scriptures as well as some commentaries, and two long articles in the Anchor Dictionary of the Bible: one on Suffering as it is treated in various ways in the Bible, the other on Theodicy, that aspect of theology that tries to reconcile the concept of a just God with the reality of disasters, atrocities, and other kinds of unearned human misery.

If you'll scroll back to message 96, a month or so back, you'll find some information I posted about why the German Jews in particular were slow to think about leaving the country.

I think it's important to remember, first, that the Jews are not a nation, and second, that comparatively few modern Jews are genetically linked to the Hebrews of Solomon's time or to those who were in captivity to the Babylonians before the Diaspora. Israel is a nation now, but not all Jews were or are Zionists, and though Israel has a special place in the Jewish consciousness, many Jews throughout the world have strong nationalistic ties to their country of residence.

I can understand and appreciate the compassion and bewilderment you expressed that so many brilliant scholars, artists, and scientists were murdered by the Nazis. I am sure you also grieve for the less distinguished, the mothers who, before they went to the gas chambers, saw their babies' brains dashed out by SS men, the children who were gassed or killed or maimed in medical experiments, the young people who starved to death, the adults who were forced to dig their own graves, the aging who were sent to labor until they dropped dead. And from the corpses, and the ashes of the crematoriums, the Nazis salvaged gold teeth and gold wedding rings and melted them down to help pay for Hitler's war effort.

Pat, in the face of such horror, think of the paralyzing fear that made many Christians try to ignore it, that made others try desperately but secretly to alleviate suffering, that must have made most people wonder if such evil could really make life better for them as Hitler had promised.

Forgive me for such a lengthy post. I've tried to shorten but it got away from me.

Ros

Ros: Your post was so informative.. I know very little about that part of history, being a 'giddy' teenager at the time.. I think we here in the US were more concerned with enough sugar and shoes.

Pat / IL

Ginny, my objectivity has left me, and I'm forced to agree that the last few pages of the novel are an absolute mess. I've gone through them a couple of times, wondering what on earth she was about with this hasty scooping up of everything, throwing in an egg and a spoonful of sugar and frosting it with a few feeble generalizations. Do we see production costs and editorial nagging at work here?

Now that's off my chest I'm once more the cool, totally impartial Ros you recognize. Or not.

Ros

Ros, Now I'm not sure I should finish... this book has certainly opened new information for me.. Do you feel that the descriptions of conditions were understated or overstated?

Pat / IL

For those of you who were shocked about the US view of the plight of the Jews, I think you might want to read The Winds of War and its sequel, The Ashes of War (?). Not sure of that title, but I found it very eye opening when I read them several years ago. I couldn't believe it either, but then when I thought about it, I remembered numerous "Christians" who denigrated the Jews for whatever reasons.

Getting back to Trudi teaching herself to swim, could that symbolize her efforts at teaching herself to survive on her own, more or less. With her mother dead and Leo more involved with others and his books than with raising his daughter, that strikes me as a viable metaphor. But I still can't rationalize the need for her to kick her dog, unless that was to indicate the need to take her hurt out on the only thing she knew that was smaller than she--but I still didn't like it.

Am reading A Civil Action now. It, too, is depressing! but informative. Sharon

Hi everyone. My daughter left today and we all got through Christmas and all beautifully. I have spent an enjoyable hour (??) reading through the posts I've missed - how wonderful to read everyone's comments and I've written down some notes.

Ginny: None of us have answered your question - "Why did Hegi make Trudi, the main character, a dwarf?" I still don't have an answer for that one. Would love to know, if there is an answer, at least, some opinions.

Ros: what a very sad story about your short friend! You should write a story about her life and why she walked into Lake Michigan! Certainly there was more to it than just being short or somewhat unattractive! She must have been very depressed about something and today there is so much one can do about depression! Remember your comments about people in American not sure what side we should take - I believe that Lindberg (Charles, that is) who was quite a hero to America, had met Hitler and believed America should embrace his ideas and he gave speeches on Hitler's ideas and Nazism. It's been sometime since I read about this - but this is one of the reasons why he left America in later life (plus, of course, his baby's kidnapping) but he was disgraced because of his partisanship towards Germany.

Helen: What a story about the Germans not telling where Dachau was - and in 1955! Do you suppose they now know where it is? I have some comments to make about the book later and the German peoples' attitudes.

Jimmie - Really enjoyed the Martin Niemoellar quote - to paraphrase - they came and I didn't speak up. Who is Niemoellar? Probably showing my ignorance here, but there it is - would like to know!!

Have loved this book discussion. Will be back later for final comments. Are we doing "A Civil Action" next? I've read it and found it so interesting - will get a copy from the library and join in.

It's a relief to know that I'm not the only one who couldn't figure out what the last few pages of the novel were all about.
ROS: you may be right when you said, "Do we see production costs and editorial nagging at work here?
SHARON: you gave me a totally new way of seeing when you wrote, "Getting back to Trudi teaching herself to swim, could that symbolize her efforts at teaching herself to survive on her own,"

HAPPY NEW YEAR ONE AND ALL!

Riel

A few final comments:

On page 306 Klaus Malter is blaming himself for not having resisted years ago, wondering how much damage he'd done with his silence. And then on page 473, we find all kinds of excuses for peoples' not resisting, such as, I'll never be able to understand, we weren't told, I didn't believe even though I was told, we merely obeyed orders.

There were two good explanations of the river, I believe. On page 333, "the river kept flowing, steady and clear, though there certainly were rocks in the riverbed that created some turbulence." And again, on page 500, "It was the nature of the river to be both turbulent and gentle, to be abundant at times and lean at others; to be greedy and to yield pleasure." These descriptions are throughout the book, so undoubtedly, I believe, Hegi believes the river is a metaphor for life.

I'm not sure about this fact, but I remember the Allies bombing Dresden and it was "total bombing" of everything, meant to demoralize and end all resistance, to flatten the town, with no consideration given for civilians, etc. Does anyone else remember this as a fact? Somewhat like Sherman's march to the sea in the Civil War. The excuse was that it would bring the end to the war quicker and thus save lives in the end. Right or Wrong? Trudi mentions somewhere that she was looking forward to the Allies entering the country until the firebombing of Dresden.

In many instances throughout the book, I found the church to be on trial, such as on page 430 - the pastor prayed for the soldiers who were sacrificing their lives, but he never mentioned the Jews who were being deported or killed. Did anyone else sense this criticism of the church, which I believe to be a valid and just criticism? As Hegi states in the acknowledgment, the book has been judged as historically accurate by those readers whom she shared it with.

I enjoyed the book very much, particularly the second half of the book when Hegi got into the "meat of it all."

As some of you have stated, the book ended rather flat, but what did we want? Did we want Trudi's lover to come back from the flames of Dresden and the book to have a happy ending? I think the book was intended to be history of a town caught between 2 dreadful wars and somehow Hegi got caught up with this dwarf character and couldn't let go of her.

Heavens!!! I do go on --- and on --- HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE

In spite of being a bit weary of the winding tale that Hegi has been spinning, I've certainly been energized in recent days by the keen and memorable comments of so many readers. Tomorrow will be a day to start summing things up and answering some of the questions I've posed for myself.

Meanwhile, I want to insert a quotation (with his permission) from an e-mail letter sent by our resident philosopher and guru, L J Klein, who says he has lurked in this discussion though he hasn't participated:

"Some things are probably too muddy and circuitous to fully analyze without much more knowledge than most of us have of the details, but we are learning. A major problem for me is that a writer of fiction has an automatic license to make up the answers which then are assumed by readers to be fact. Then again, when the answers are unclear sometimes fiction can be a stimulus to investigation and fresh thinking about old assumptions."

Thanks, L J. I think your comment speaks to some of our concerns.

Ros

Re: L.J.Klein quote.... Reading is a way to learning to learn.

Everyone: Pat Scott has just written me that Joan Grimes' husband Frank passed away suddenly yesterday. I'm sure you all join with me in expressing our sorrow and thoughts for her in this difficult time.

Ginny

I am not only flattered, but overwhealmed to be "Quoted" especially in so erudite a venue. Indeed I am "With you always".

Happy New Year

Best

Anyone wishing to make cards or post flowers for Joan Grimes in remembrance of her dear husband, Frank, please. . .

Click here

If any have already posted some flowers and thoughts, you may like to post them in the new folder also.

Pat

I feel that it's time now to begin a summing up of our reactions to Stones from the River, and I want to start with information that might be new to some readers:

In 1990 - four years before the publication of this book - Ursula Hegi published Floating in My Mother's Palm, a novel in which the central character is none other than Hanna Malter, Jutta's child, whom Trudi Montag always thought of as "rightfully hers" because of her fantasied romance with Klaus Malter. In the 1990 book, we can read the endings of some of the half-finished stories from Stones, and see the realization of some of Trudi's mysterious prophecies. Many of the characters in Floating will be familiar to us, though a number of the plot-lines have been changed ... or, I should say, since Floating came before Stones, that when Hegi got around to writing Stones she made a lot of changes. Trudi in the 1990 book is a bit different from Trudi in the 1994 books.

One element worth mentioning is water. Water plays a role in all Hegi's fiction, and in Floating we see the same Rhein running past the same town, but there's also more emphasis on swimming, its joys and, central to the climax of the book, its dangers. Little Hanna was taught to swim by Jutta, her eccentric and artistic mother, at the age of five. Taught to swim, you notice, and supported in the water until she could move independently -- which adds more mystery and "magic" to Trudi's foolhardy plunge into the river without even a witness to help her if she got into trouble. It also supports some readers' theory that the motherless Trudi was looking after herself. The "motherless" theme appears in every one of Hegi's novels in some form. Here, Hanna Malter is left motherless (as Trudi had "predicted") by Jutta's death in a car crash.

Ros

Ros: How interesting. Did you get the feeling that Hegi is writing the same book over and over with little changes? How strange to fulfill the prophecies in a different book four years in advance! That is mind boggling. Maybe Hegi has only one story to tell, how clever of you to notice the motherless theme.

Katie Bates wrote me that she had "read an interesting interview with Hegi quite awhile ago, in which she told about interviewing a young Zwerg (German, female). From that young woman, Hegi adopted Trudi's trait of demanding a story or a secret before she would divulge anything - a need for power from a powerless person. Trudi's role in that small town was of storyteller and secret keeper, at first malicious, but then growing and changing, losing the bitterness of her youth."

So, Ella, it seems that Hegi had a real life person in the back of her mind when she crafted this story.

Ginny

Ginny, I'd like to track down that interview. I did once start to look up all the Hegi refs in one of the search engines; now I'll be inspired to go back and do it thoroughly. No, I don't think Hegi is just writing the same story over and over again, any more than any other novelist who has not reached full maturity in the art of storytelling. (Think of Mary Gordon and Anne Rivers Siddons who also recombined the same semi-autobiographical elements several times.) I think she may have been and perhaps still is searching for the best way to tell the "real" story, maybe the story that explains her life, her family history, her relationships, or the way she came here in her teens, lived on the East Coast, married, had children, and then divorced and went all the way across the country to settle down again.

I've found her style awkward in the extreme and her plotting somewhat clumsy -- but think how much she's given us to speculate about, discuss, and learn!

Ros

Ella, as I recall, the euphemistic term used for the attack on Dresden was "saturation bombing." I looked in the Britannica and found that the estimated deaths ranged from 35,000 to 100,000, many the result of the fire-storms caused by the bombs. I had told myself that the fire-storm phenomenon was a surprise to the Allies; but then I saw that fire-storms had occurred earlier in the bombing of Hamburg; so I guess the Allies knew what they were about to do.

Let us not forget that in a single year, 1942, the Nazis captured 300,000 Polish Jews and shipped them to the death camp at Treblinka, where they were all gassed upon arrival. At the time of the futile 1943 uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto, 13,000 Jews were killed outright and the surviving 56,000 were transported to the death camps.

Pat, you asked earlier whether the facts Hegi gives us are understated or overstated. I think what she tells us is accurate but incomplete. Regardless of "who started it" (a question Sharon reported earlier as having been offered by a German exchange student in defense of her country), the deeds done on both sides are hard to contemplate, let alone to understand.

Who can imagine how many life stories ended in the ashes of Dresden, how many families, husbands, lovers, friends vanished? But Dresden also suited Hegi's plot, as the place where Max went, and where he disappeared from her life. The romance was beautiful, Trudi's feeling of finally being accepted was wonderful, the sexual experience was fulfilling -- but (to use a cliche) wouldn't credulity have been strained if Max and Trudi had gone off together into the sunset, married, and lived happily ever after?

Ros

ROSLYN: you wrote, "wouldn't credulity have been strained if Max and Trudi had gone off together into the sunset, married, and lived happily ever after?"
Yes; especially since in real life the only dwarf I knew lost her boyfriend when he was constantly ridiculed by others whenever they saw them together. He ended up leaving her, pregnant; but she was loved and protected ever after by her normal-sized brothers and son.

Riel

Riel, it's amazing how many readers have remembered knowing or encountering a dwarf in their lives. I have searched my memory (which is usually reliable if sometimes slow) and from the ragbag of recollections there drifted up an image of a tiny schoolgirl, perhaps in high school but not in any of my classes, who looked -- and was treated, alas -- like a doll. She must have been a pituitary dwarf, the type that is miniature in size but normally proportioned. There would be fewer of these today because treatment with human growth hormone is readily available and can usually result in a body size within the "normal" range.

Ros

Ros: I wonder if the dwarf Hegi interviewed later read her book and what she thought of it. If I were a writer, I wouldn't presume to know what the dwarf's thoughts were, for fear of hurting feelings - my characters would have to be completely fictional and not based on anything. Thanks for the info on the saturation bombing. Yes, we learned a lot from this book.

Do any of you feel that you could write a book? Or would at least like to try? I often think I could do better than some I've read - and wouldn't it be fun to try online. We could have committees to do this-n-that; outline the characters, plot, each chapter, etc. Of course, we would have to promise to all agree as it unfolds - what kind? my vote would be historical fiction. What would you vote on? I'm dreaming as I do my chores for the day, but what fun!

Ella, I have tried to find out exactly who Martin Niemoeller was but to no avail. He was born in 1892 died in 1984. That particular quote was attributed to him according to Barletts Familiar Quotations. A doctor I go to has this framed (poster size) in his office. I looked it up and can't find any more info on the quote or Niemoeller. Perhaps some of our Jewish Senior Netters could help us out. I would also be interested in knowing more about him and the quote.

Ros, in your last post you mentioned the new growth hormone available today. I couldn't help remember the part in the book where the SS officer told Trudi that people like her were an experiment. I wonder if any of our present knowledge of the growth hormones came out of those horrible experiments. What a terrible thought.

Jimmie

Jimmie, just a quick answer to your Niemoller question: He was a German Protestant minister who at first (very early) supported Hitler and expressed in print some opinions expressing opposition to Jewish views. Gradually he became disenchanted with Nazism and became known for his anti-Hitler political views. He served many years in concentration camps. The famous quote evidently was based on his personal ordeal. There are a number of citations on Yahoo about him, including the exact wording of his famous statement, and also a biographical article in recent editions of the Britannica. I am trying to get the hang of doing links without sending everyone astray, and I will include the Niemoller links if I can get my head together within the next day or two.

Your gruesome suggestion about the experimentation on dwarfs really made me think! I recognize that people often want to believe that some good can emerge from even the most horrendous evil. However, I believe that Mengele's brutal "experiments" were more voyeuristic than constructive. (Sort of, "Hmm, I wonder whether the inside of this Jew is like the inside of a Christian, and what would happen if I slowly pulled out a few organs without anesthetic?") You've no doubt read about the woman death-camp administrator who had lampshades made from the flayed skin of exterminated Jews. At the risk of sounding flippant, I have to say that I don't think she was interested in methods of preserving human skin for the good of mankind.

Ros

I started to read this book twice, but found with other matters pressing it was easy to put down.

It was a library book so there was always that time constraint. It has been very interesting reading your posts, since I didn't get very far with the book.

However.....I couldn't put "A Civil Action" down. Read it while cruising, and finished it at my daughter's house during Christmas celebrations. Anxious to discuss that book.

Fran,

I had the same experience with "Stones" in that I read about 100 pages and then just didn't pick it up anymore. I started "A Civil Action" and have now finished it.

I have followed all of the great postings in this discussion throughout December and really appreciate all of the work that Ros has put into this discussion and all of the other comments.

Larry

Here are two links which should take you to some information on Martin Niemoller:

Niemoller Quote - This claims to be the exact quotation.

Next: Niemoller Biography will give you quite a few facts about Pastor Niemoller himself.

Ros

Thanks Ros for the Niemoller web site. The article was interesting and made a copy of it. I could not find this or anything on Niemoller. My research skills are still lacking.

Thanks again,

Jimmie

Sorry about the gruesome suggestion but it did come to mind when I read that part in the book.

When will we start the "Civil Action" discussion? My husband read the book and thought it was great. I am waiting to start it with you all as I had to re-read Stones as the discussion went along. The MEMORY is gone!!!!!!!

ELLA...Story writing has been tried twice, in the Arts Folder. Both times it started out with a bang, but petered out. Neither one was ever finished. A historical novel might be fun to try, tho. Would I have to do a lot of research? VBG!

Katie - YES, you're so good at it!!! Should we start with just a short story and if it works, flesh it out to a book? But must say, if it has been tried and failed, should we try again? Still dreaming - have always wanted to write but never had the discipline needed.

Ros - thanks for the Niemoller quote - another very sad story!

Fran - like you, I couldn't put down A Civil Action. Had to tell it to my husband as I went along. He doesn't read anymore, but is always interested in a good story. Got a copy from the library and ready to discuss. Finished Cold Mountain not long ago, and had to tell him each chapter of that!

HI, Guys, just stopping in to put up the new schedule: Ros wrote me she'd like to have it in.

Ella: yes, it did fail, but for different reasons. The first attempt was actually a huge success, moderated by Teresa Bloomingdale, a famous author in her own "write." It was Write Your Own Mystery, and partcipants added a line a day: kind of a parlor game, but great fun and the MOST amazing writing talent. Unfortunately, we changed servers or something and the entire data base was lost. Then the second one, was Write Your Own Mystery and Dawn Tucek took it over, and did a very credible job, but for some reason, it sort of withered.

Now, the creative writing is under the Arts, and led by Joan Grimes, who, as we know, is in mourning.

If we're going to write a book, I sure want MY name on it, so maybe if you all are interested, you could open a dicsussion for it under Writing in the Arts, and then we can make a link from here to there, too. If, for instance, it were historical research, we could use the Writer's Folder to post the final product and edit it and comment on it there, and maybe gather info somewhere in the books and natter and learn about research: but we'd probably want to wait till Joan comes back and tells us where she thinks they all should go...but I'M GAME!! (Wouldn't that be something? Talk about the Beardstown Ladies and their Stock Club and Book, we could be the SeniorNetters Write Again)!! I say, go for it!

Now, I've posted the schedule for the rest of the month. I've got a lot to say about the end of Stones, hope you do, too, and you'll all want to be thinking of what book you'd like to read for April! Bob Eliott (Eddie Marie's husband) won the March Book in our Football Contest, and our next contest will be on Super Bowl Sunday to win whatever we select as our April book. This idea of winning a book a month is Marie Click's, and it really "clicked" with me.

Well, enough puns! Russ is all prepared, ready to go, waiting in the wings, but we're still in the last act of Stones, and I hope my comments don't bring the curtain down!

I think now is the time for critical analysis, summary, and your thoughts in general...

I do think, and I know Ros does NOT want praise, but I feel she has just done a fabulous job with this discussion! Look at all her research, and we've really taken the book in order, for the first time, I think, and examined the plot closely, have learned so much about the period, and so many other things... just look at the number of posts, and divide that by 30: outstanding job, just outstanding!! We just keep getting better and better.

Now, about that ending!! Be back in a flash with my timeless thoughts!!

Ginny

Me again! I keep thinking about the title, Stones From the River . Not The River of Life or A River Runs Through It but Stones FROM the River.

I hate to be such a literal person, but, to me, that indicates that the Stones are the most important thing, and, while reading the book and happily drowning in the imagery and the symbolism and such, and going off on mental tangents with every image so that I hardly knew WHAT was going on in the book, but was enjoying MY journey through it, I came slam bam against the ending, and felt really let down.

There's such a mish mash. On page 522 even enthusiastic I wrote "Non Plot" in the margin. Who knows what I meant? The joy of memory loss. There's nothing about stones...no sum up no wrap up. We've got the Unknown Benefactor's legacy: more gifts being left. Never did know why he did that, did we ever decide??

We've got Trudi obsessing over that stupid kiss, and the Dentist BLUSHING when he remembers it. What on earth did that kiss consist of, anyway?? Or maybe in those days if you kissed a girl, you married her on the spot??

The book ends with images of dirt, not the river. Could we stretch a point and say the dirt is pulverized stones??? AGGGGG

The river obligingly floods on page 514, but the stones have disappeared. The river is quoted as "their river, an enemy that was easily devined and outside themselves."

I believe, on the basis of the above, that Hegi wrote the last chapter at first, and then thought she'd end with a bang, but when she got to the last chapter, the rest of the book did not support it, but it is such nice writing, she thought she'd put it in anyway.

I keep asking WHY a dwarf? WHY did Renate not come back? These are not real people, why did Hegi have them as she did, what purpose??

I didn't care about Trudi, but did about Renate, who seemed the most real of all the characters, and one who didn't return. Does anybody have any idea why Hegi would not bring her back?

Those were the two main disappointments in the book for me.

Ginny

Ginny...Well, that puts my mind at ease. Since I came home from Mexico I haven't picked up "Stones", except to move it out of the way. I just never warmed up to anyone in it, and the plot was interesting historically, but a mishmash otherwise, I think. It was OK for traveling, tho. It slid off my carryon, under the seat, and the guy in front of me found it and was waving it around trying to find the owner. When I finally claimed it he said, "Looks good!". Wish I could send it to him.

Am really anxious to get started on "A Civil Action". Thanks again, Ginny!

Love, Katie &

Katie, I understand your lack of engagement with this book. I can't tell you how noble and virtuous I feel for having snuggled it to my bosom for the past six weeks, searching earnestly for whatever good I could find in it. I see myself as the heroine of one of those Young Adult books where the central character is forced to buddy up with a grungy and unappealing classmate to work on a project or whatever. Of course she discovers that said g. & u. classmate is really a treasure and they remain friends. Well, maybe not exactly like that - but I did find more in the book than my earlier reading had promised. But I agree that for most readers it was tapioca, bread pudding, or okra - you love it or you hate it, nothing in between.

Ginny, as far as I was able to determine, Renate Eberhardt didn't survive the camps. We could talk a lot about how mother figures disappear in Hegi's work.

EVERYBODY! Go to www.amazon.com and submit a review of this wonderful novel! You might win $100 worth of Amazon book credit. Anyway, you might have the fun of seeing your review published there. You're not required to like the book. Current contest closes January 15, 1998.

Ros

$100 worth of books?? and the honor of our SeniorNetter winning the big review?? O, do submit one, Loyal Readers, this is our hour, I feel it!! Let's go read it and all of us send one in, $100 worth of books and HONOR galore is worth it!!

Ginny

Have not ventured much about this book... I did read it and can agree with your thoughts on the ending... Reads like Hegi ran out of pencils and/or paper, and tried to write a quick getaway.

Pat / IL

Well, we've come to the end, I've scraped all the leftovers onto one plate, and it remains for us all to inspect the confusing casserole of fact and various kinds of fiction and render a final judgment.

I'm hopeful that many of you, lurkers and posters alike, will come online to comment even though I know many of the comments will be based on unfinished readings: Well, that's a comment in itself, isn't it? If the book didn't hold your interest or if it simply made you too impatient to continue, it's important to make that part of your statement.

The BC is a democratic organization and thinking about what we've read and how we felt about it should help us to make more successful nominations. Better evaluations can lead to better choices. Don't we owe that to ourselves?

For those who are still interested, I want to post links to three reviews of Hegi's work and another interesting information source:

New York Times review of Stones

Review by Kent Chadwick . The reviewer is a writer and resident of Washington, where Hegi lives.

Review of Hegi's Tearing the Silence, nonfiction

Much useful information about dwarfism and about the association Little People of America can be found in Frequently Asked Questions About Dwarfism

From this last-named reference I learned that I should have used the term "average-size" rather than "normal" in comparing taller people to dwarfs.

Ros

I did read Stones--sort of. Did a lot of skimming. One problem is that because of some medications I take it is difficult for me to sit down and get really into any book. And where there is not a well defined plot I have even more problems. The main thing I remember is her encounter with the circus dwarf (Pia?) and learning to hug herself. Agree with everyone about the ending--rather a hurry up and quit type of finish.

Thanks to Ros for much hard work and good leadership, and to Ginny and many others for the good posts. The first time I read this book straight through I felt there was much of value both intellectually and emotionally--an intriguing book. Now after so many have picked it apart to analyze it I'm not so sure. I guess I like the whole better than the pieces. Does that make any sense?

Russ

My number one reaction to "Stones from the River" is, "I can't believe this person was walking around with all those different characters in her head. What a rich imagination!" I should live so long, and have such a fertile imagination. Boy, would my days be a lot more interesting while I'm sorting through the endless drudgery of housework.

Some lines from "The Tin Drum" summed up for me why Trudi used gossipy stories (sometimes malicious) to control and manipulate others. In 'The Tin Drum' the dwarf circus clown, Bebra, says:
"Our kind has no place in the audience. We must perform, we must run the show. If we don't, it's the others that run us. And they don't do it with kid gloves."
Although I've grown up to be a 'turn the other cheek' kind of person, I must admit to a not-so-christian vicarious pleasure in Trudi's chutzpa (spelling?) at striking back with the only weapon available to her.

My favorite person in the whole book is Herr Blau. (Pgs.307 to 309) He seems the most genuinely human character in the story in my opinion. I loved the way he went from fear and cowardice to remorse and repentance; 'To deny help to someone in need, Herr Blau discovered, was far more devastating than to fear for his own safety.' As Leo Montag put it, "He had made the wrong choice, but he didn't stay with it."
Herr Blau, from then on, risked his own life to help those who couldn't help themselves. That makes him my kind of hero.

The non-ending confused me; although having lived for more than half a century I no longer expect 'happily ever after' in the books I read. The ending seems to be explained by the author herself on pg.524 when she attributes these thoughts to Trudi: 'She didn't understand yet how all the tangles of their lives would sort themselves out in her story,.....' then she goes on to talk about the raking of the earth.

I found the many characters fascinating, though sometimes confusing, and would give it an 8 out of 10 if that's the system being used.

Riel

Wrote my review---lost it via my IP----short version: I liked the book and "ditto" on Russ Post #192!

Jimmie

PS GREAT JOB, ROS! Oh, and thank you.

Ros: Is this where you want us to rate the book? I would give it a 5 or average (and that is strictly the second half of the book). The first part of the book did not hold my interest at all - the children, etc.

Ros: Thanks for an outstanding job of preparation and being the host of the discussion. You put up with my "negative posts" very well - I know I can be difficult sometimes as I just let my thoughts ramble on and sometimes do not think how they sound to others. We know you put in a lot of time on this and many, many thanks!!!

ROS: I certainly echo the kudos to you. Thank you for an enjoyable forum.

Riel

Yes, ROS, you did great. In fact, your comments were the only reason I continued to read the book.

ROS, what an outstanding job you did on this book! Thanks also to the many great posts. I wish I had had the opportunity to participate more but the Season just did not allow it.

As for my rating system, I will give it one boulder, two stones, three pieces of gravel, a pebble, a gem stone, and a grain of sand for a total of 8 out of 10. I really liked the chance for introspection and thought.

Di

Everybody:

Just some odds and ends this am. Patrick's back!! From his month in India, and I can't wait for him to try to recuperate and give us his "India Diary." Apparently that was some trip!

Tomorrow will be our first day of nominating books! Please nominate 3 right here from any source you want. You can include a review or short summary or whatever you think might intrigue others. I went to amazon.com this am to get info on the ones I wanted, and the reviews of the first one were so rave, I forgot all about looking up the other two, so will go back. Of course, for every rave, there's usually a "pan," so will keep reading.

I'd also like to take another moment to thank Ros who does not want praise, but she truly DID do a wonderful job.

Now on the Ratings, have you all seen the new appearance of that area?? Please go look!! Ratings and Reviews

Let's take your ratings through and including January 14, and then on the 15th of January, we'll learn what our consensus was.

Di: what a delightful way of putting it, that's how I'm gonig to vote, too. With stones!!

It's really nice to be excited about books!

Ginny

Oh, and a further personal note which I failed to put above: you know, we are a group here as well as book reviewers, so do want to keep you up on our personal progress, too:

Our Pat Scott's husband, Jack, continues in very poor health, and is really quite ill. Also our Ruth Levia's husband, Frank, is just out of hospital, also not well, Pat and Ruth might appreciate a card. They've done so much for us.

Our Joan Grimes has been posting, and is keeping busy trying to catch up with all the lastest on the boards. I did write her about Ella's book, and now we're doing a new thing on SeniorNet called cross link in which a discussion can appear in more than one place, so think we all need to be thinking of what WE'LL do in Ella's book!!

Ginny

DIANE: just wanted you to know what a good chuckle I got out of your funny ROCK-solid rating of "Stones".

Riel

Diane - I got a big chuckle out of your rating, too, - need to add if anyone needs some pebbles or gravel to vote with, I got a driveway full and if you email me your address, I'll send you some.

Now about that book, Ginny, I was doing my usual rambling. But it would be fun, and, as you have said before, if the Beardstown Ladies could ---- and etc??? What could the Seniornet Bookclub Online clubbers write about? Each of us take a chapter - a snynopsis of our lives and how each of us "found" Seniornet? Try to make it funny, or whatever comes out of our mouths or keyboard? Katie - you promised to do research of some kind - what shall we have her do? Ginny - you can do the research on the founding of Seniornet, who did what. I just received a copy of the newletter and although no names were under some of the pictures, I bet I could pick you out!

We must put Diane's rating in that book somewhere - we did think it was funny!

Another thought about the book. We could do a "Pics and Pans of the Seniornetters for 1997" - write some observations, funny, serious, dramatic, witty, whatever about a few books, and after each book we review leave a blank page for the buyer to write notes - it could be bought as a gift for a friend or just for the buyer's own use. What do you think of that? Are all these pages saved somewhere so someone could cull through them and edit them? We could do this every year and people might look forward to buying them -hahahahaha. So what shall we do with all our money, folks???

Dianne! Your rating is right on! Maybe we have problems with the fragmentation and ambiguity of this book because that too often is the way our lives are. I'll give it a rating of 7.

Russ

OOH ELLA I LOVE THAT!! Sounds like a winner to me. I vote yes, isn't that exciting? YES YES....YES. Is that too ambiguous??

Tomorrow is the day, new books to nominate, now let's ALL read every nomination very carefully, and cast our normal excellent vote.

Ginny

Dear ELLA...when I asked if I HAD to do research it was in the beginning when you mentioned Historical Novel. Trust me, I was not volunteering!!! I have a definite and fatal allergy to work that is assigned by anyone other than my muse of the moment.

I will sure keep you in mind, tho, if I suddenly find that I have nothing to do. Ha ha ha ha...

Love ya, fellow Buckeye, Katie

I liked "Stones".. Not the most interesting book I've read, but brought me awake to events during WWII.. I'll rate it 8 out of 10.

Liked Di rating.. The stones I like to pick up are those along a river or lake shore, that are smooth and round and maybe flat, that you can skip across the water.

Pat / IL

I liked Stones from the River very much. I will give it a 9.

Ros--I appreciate all you did to make this such a "high quality" discussion. The background you provided for us was excellent.

I had read this book earlier and discussed it in my AAUW Book Group. All of your excellent posts here encouraged my to reread many parts of it. Thanks to all of you who posted. I enjoyed lurking in here all month.

I'm having one of those let's throw the damn machine out the window moments…preceded by it must be a full moon week.

Finally got a few minutes to add my two cents after being almost exclusively a lurker all month. Wrote it up and you know what happened…it wouldn't post and then got blown away!!!

I wanted to add that I had read the book some time ago, but didn't remember it in detail enough to really get into the discussion. However I want to thank all of you for your marvelous input. I was able to follow along reading your posts as time allowed and much of the story was brought back .

One thing that puzzles me is your criticism of the ending being too quick and neat. One of the things I really do recall about the book is that my impression was, that while I found much that was of interest in the book , I felt that the ending went on forever…as if she didn't want to let go. I wonder why the disparity in our reactions.

Ros: A teacher is a teacher is a teacher…you really have the gift. Sorry but you really do deserve all the kudos you are getting. What a super job you've done.

I'll give it seven stones…yea, Di I like your system!

Helen, I'm so glad to see you again!! Hope everything at your home is now brand shining and new! You'll have to send us some photos so we can vicariously meet in your fabulous new restored home! I want to see the granite toppped kitchen!

Nominate Today!! Nominate Today!! Nominate Today!!

Today through TUESDAY next we'll take your nominations here. You can nominate up to three books.

On WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 14th, we'll vote on our APRIL book.

On THURSDAY January 15th, we'll learn what our April book is!

THURSDAY JANUARY 15th is also the DEADLINE for the amazon.com review contest, hope some of you can go in there and win!!

Now, I've got three books, but want to present them one at a time. Here's the first one, and why:

Independent People : An Epic ~ by Halldor Laxness

This book is in paperback, is available from the Quality Paperback Book Club (A division of Book of the Month Club) for $5.98 or free, with bonus points, and for $11.80 from Amazon.com.

The cover shows an idyllic sheep farm, and I thought how nice it would be to start "themes" in our reading. It is true it is 400 pages or so, but both Civil and Stones were bigger, and Road is quite short.

I felt it would carry forth the "farm" theme, and we could follow with Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath, or something, if we liked, and then off into Steinbeck's Travels With Charley or something else by Steinbeck, if the fabulous Travels is not available. I think LJ mentioned something of the sort once, will go look it up. Anyway, "themes" in reading, maybe?

BUT THEN I went to Amazon and looked it up. Can not BELIEVE the reviews, you must see this for yourself: (Oh, yes, it DID win the Nobel Prize, too):

Customer Comments farleys@inav.net from Donna Farley of North Liberty, Iowa , 12/21/97, rating=10: A true classic, yet written in my lifetime, best page-turner I ordered this book on a hunch that it might be immortal in my mind and because it was about a country of fascination (Iceland) that I had little knowledge of. My Christmas shopping has continually been stalled while I read on and on, awaiting the next turn of independence. I have yet to finish it but want the bookreading world to know - grab this book and begin immediately. It is a timeless masterpiece about all of us.

h2a@moscow.com from Moscow, Idaho , 11/21/97, rating=10:

Independent People, which I heard about like many wonderful books through NPR, is hands down the best novel I've read. I can't add much to what the other on-line reviewers have said about the major characters and relationships except to mention Laxness' writing about the family cow...Bjartur's resistence to the idea of a cow, the breathtaking description of its being let out after being confined all winter, and its fate are all handled masterfully. Wow! What a great book!

istoerh@petrofinance.com from Washington, DC , 10/27/97, rating=10: A unique page turner Independent People is the Nobel Prize (for Literature 1955) winning book written by the "undisputed master of contemporary Icelandic fiction". It is a wonderfully written book, although by no means a happy book. The plot is at times dark, but casts an intriguing look at human nature, relationships and a way of life. Laxness covers a multitude of issues and themes that are relevant even today and it is amazing to think that this book was written in the late 1940s. The story is the life of Bjartur an independent person, his family and his farm, Summerhouses. He is a farmer, raising sheep, facing similar difficulties and harsh realities as farmers face today, but his connection with the animals sets him apart from contemporary farmers. Bjartur's complex relationships with his family and the landed members of society and his straightforward relationship with his animals allows for a twisting plot and surprising turn of events. Although the book was of particular interest to me, having traversed Iceland on horseback recently (the horse that Bjartur owned has the same name as one of the horses I rode), but it does not preclude people who have never been to Iceland to feeling the same way as I did. Laxness somehow manages to engulf the reader, making one want to read on and on. The reader is hooked by him creating an interest, as well as concern or care towards Bjartur and his family. Most of the story is seen through the eyes of Bjartur, but by changing briefly to the point of view of the daughter and son, gives the story a smooth rounded feeling. This allows the reader to understand the complex feelings of the children, as well as conceptualize how they see and feel about their surroundings and life. The writing is fluid and the story and events unfold easily. to be

eadillal@devalcol.edu from Doylestown, PA, USA , 10/14/97, rating=10: Laxness Ranks with Homer Haldor Laxness, the Nobel laurette and Icelandic genius, creates one of the most satisfying books with "Independent People." It is of such epic proportions and yet so earthy that one is continually struck by the dichotomy. The hero is a simple, poor farmer; he is not great, he will never be great (unlike Achilles who was great all his life). The landscape is so expansive and beautiful that it is hard to imagine a more magnificent scene, and yet this is also a land of hardship and famine and cold death. The book operates on so many levels that all one can do is bathe in its beauty and try to absorb as much as possible; whether the names (Asta Sollilja is exquisite), the land shapes, the farmers life, the love, the hate, the passage of time, the pressure of living an independent, free life, all of this deeply impress you upon reading the work. It is something I enjoyed, enjoy, and hope to read every year hence, so that I may enjoy the epiphanic revelations it provides.

pachecoswick@earthlink.net from Craig Swick, Columbia, Maryland , 09/17/97, rating=10: Outstanding modern day epic. This is one of the best books I have read for a long time. It is the epic story of a poor sheep farmer in Iceland in the early part of the twentieth century. His tragic flaw is his belief that a person should be totally independent. He believes this so strongly that it ends up alienating him from his family and everyone else around him. He would rather starve than accept help from anyone. Since his independence comes from being able to raise his sheep, they mean more to him than any person. The novel is so well written and the characters so well developed it is easy to see why Laxness won the Nobel prize for literature.

lantos@sun.uchc.edu from UCONN School of Medicine, Connecticut , 08/15/97, rating=10: Brutal yet Beautiful

After learning by happenstance that Halldor Laxness was the first (and only) Icelander to win the Nobel Prize for literature, I impulsively purchased his magnum opus, Independent People. Delving into the harsh, unforgiving world of an isolated Icelandic shepherd, Bjartur of Summerhouses, I was overcome by the coldness of the nordic winters and the romance of those hardy flowers--the souls of people and sheep alike--that bloom in the omnipresent darkness. truggle. Bjartur's epic path through Independent People is tragic and beautiful, an immensely satisfying journey into a world where independent souls are perched atop the same precipice and only the toughest will remain.

peter_wilson@mail.amsinc.com , 06/03/97, rating=9: Fantastic. Even though this book is about a sheep farmer in Iceland around the beginning of the century, I was hooked from the begining. What it lacks in plot, it more than makes up for in characters, satire, and tragedy. If you like Gabriel Garcia Marquez, this Nobel Prize winner is for you.

************

These are intriguing remarks, and it does sound like a book not to be missed, so Independent People is my first nomination for our April book.

What are YOUR nominations, what do you think of the way this one looks, keep those reviews coming, and have a fabulous day!!

Ginny

My nominations for April are:

The Horse Whisperer by Nicholas Evans---paperback-$6.00-Amazon This was recommended to me by ex English Lit teacher. My husband read it and liked it very much. I am now reading it and really enjoying it.

The Diary of Mattie Spenser by Sandra Dallas---hardback-$15.37-Amazon I loved this short book. About the life and times of a pioneer wormen and her family.

Coming Home by Rosemunde Pilcher---paperback-$6.39-Amazon This also was a great book. Takes place in England, pre WWII, WWII, and post WWII. Loved it!

Those are my nominations but also want to read Independent People. I seldom see one I don't want to read. HaHa!

Jimmie

There sure is a lot being written, shown, and said about this 'horse whisperer' and it is fascinating. There was a TV documentary a few nights ago about this man and his gentle method of breaking a mustang to a saddle in about 48 hours.

I wish to nominate "The Seeing Glass" by Jacquelin Gorman. The non-fiction story of a talented young wife and mother who awakens one morning to find she is blind. Her account of trying to cope with it is interwoven with the intriguing story of her autistic brother and how he coped with his world and how the people around him reacted. To use a hackneyed phrase, 'it runs the gamut of human emotions'.

Riel

Here is our Fran's letter, rescued from where she hid it!

Fran Olweiller - 01:20pm Jan 9, 1998 PDT (#213 of 213)
Round Tables Host - Dover, Delaware

I see from the E Mail that I dutifully printed out that today starts the day to NOMINATE books for April. I can't seem to find the place to do that soooooo...

I nominate "The Color of Water". I have read it, and it was one of the most inspiring books I ever read. A true story of a Jewish white woman in the South of many years ago who marries a black man. She goes on to have 12 children who now all have advanced college degrees.

It is on the New York Times best seller list under Paperbacks Non Fiction. Cost is $12 from the bookstore locally, and is a keeper.

That is the only book I nominate, and someday it will be chosen. I have faith!!

Fran

As I reflect on rating a book or nominating new ones, some thoughts arise. What criteria do we use in rating or choosing? What do we expect in a good book? One reader comments, "An imaginative plot alone does not make a good book. There needs to be some depth there, too, something that strikes a chord, illuminates a feeling or idea, reverberates in the heart and mind." Very likely we don't always enjoy the same things. But isn't that what makes a vital discussion?

SO, my first nomination is: Independent People by Halldor Laxness, published in 1946 but newly available in a Vintage International edition. Paperback available from Amazon for $11.20. I read this book about a month ago and found it a great experience!

In the introduction Brad Leithausen says, "Perhaps there is a still more pivotal subject, the war waged within a single spirit..Bjartur has attained his greatest dream, to be totally independent and to have enough wealth to build a 'proper house', and he discovers his triumph is empty." It reminds me of what the reader of "Martin Dressler" by Millhauser said, "Martin discovered in the end that he had dreamed the wrong dream!" Leithausen continues, "There are good books and there are great books and there may be a book that is something still more: it is the book of your life."

A Second Nomination: Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier, published in 1997, available from Amazon for $16.80, not yet available in paper. I have just finished reading this book.

Synopsis: A magnificent love story, Cold Mountain is the tale of a wounded Confederate soldier, Inman, who walks away from the ravages of war and back home to his pre-war sweetheart, Ada. Inman's odyssey through the devastated landscape of the soon-to-be-defeated South interweaves with Ada's struggle to revive her father's farm with the help of a young drifter named Ruby. As their long-separated lives begin to converge at the close of the war, Inman and Ada confront the vastly transformed world in which they now live.

Reminds me a bit of Falkner's "The Unvanquished". There is lots of hardship and heartbreak, and feel for the devastating human toll the Civil War took. Partly, I enjoyed this book because it is set in the area near Asheville and Black Mountain where we had a second home for four years.

Russ

Russ: Great minds run together! And EVERYBODY's talking about Cold Mountain !

Keep 'em coming folks!!

Our Fran points out to me that Super Bowl Sunday is not the 29th!! The 29th is a THURSDAY!! So when is it??? Fran says she thinks it's the 25th! Does anybody know?No wonder I've been missing the Prize Patrol!

Ginny, Expert in All Things

Double FLASH!! Jeanne Lee confirms that Super Bowl Sunday is the 25th, so if you wait to try to guess on the 29th for the free book, you'll miss it. The Contest Folder will open on January 24th, Saturday, and you can guess as often as you like! Without going over. The closest number wins a free book!!

Ginny

I second the nomination for "Cold Mountain" - read it and it's wonderful. Did not feel that it was a love story as much as it was a story of survival in those hard times. Both the soldier in his odyssey of returning home and being hunted as a "deserter" and the two women struggling to keep a farm going without help were just magnificent reading. This is a first book by this author - Wow!

Super Bowl is Sunday, January 25, 1998 at QualComm Stadium in San Diego, California.

Shucks! Ginny, I hoped that your date for the Super Bowl would stand and that all those fans would tune in on Thursday, not find it and there would never be another Super Bowl so we could go back to ending the football season after the first week in January. Oh well maybe next year. (Is there anyone out there as disgusted as I am with the whole sports mess - i.e., biting an opponents ear; making millions of dollars playing a game taught in college by a coach paid by taxpayer money and never contributing one penny to that school; players who need witness protection programs, etc. in college and high school, yet.) I didn't mean to get off on that - As for a book nomination: "How the Irish Saved Civilization" by Thomas Cahill. I am not of Irish decent but I do think another picture of them is long overdue - many people think of whiskey, tenors, red hair, hot temper, the Kennedy Clan and the IRA and religious wars or other such things when the Irish are mentioned - this book presents a different picture. Since we all have a love of literature and reading, we can certainly appreciate it. I will have to look for a review. I will be in touch after the Super Bowl!

Well hey folks. Re Super Bowl - I'm into sports as well as books and root for the Broncos in the SB.

I managed to read Cold Mountain and 3rd the motion. There are some very discussable characters.

Haven't read it but Independent People sounds good.

Di

Please put me in for Cold Mountain as I think it would be an extraordinary read. I have been looking at in the bookstore, and am almost read to buy it. It will be a lot of fun to read.

I didn't know when the Super Bowl was, either, Ginny. Without the Cowboys in the playoffs or Super Bowl, the Dallas media is strangely quiet about it!

I will have to pass on the rating of Stoner From the River as it didn't read it. I will say, though, that with the wonderful discussion by Roz, I feel like I have not only read, I think I lived it!!

Carole

I will have to pass on the rating of Stones From the River as it didn't read it. I will say, though, that with the wonderful discussion by Roz, I feel like I have not only read it, I think I lived it!!

Carole

I'm so pleased that I'm not the only one who knows not when THE BIGGEST FOOTBALL game takes place, the season seems to be never ending.

Joyce: The Cahill book was already done by this group.

I'm not able to nominate yet but am interested in reading your input. Sounds as if there are some favorites leading the pack already.

On "Horse Whisperer". It was a lovely romantic read and I am waiting to see Robert Redford in the flick, but in my opinion it's a light read for the club.

The only, and I do mean only, reason I know that it is in San Diego on the 25th is that it is getting a lot of local hype.

I would really like to do Cold Mountain in April! I just bought it from Amazon, with several other books and was waiting 'til I finish A Civil Action before starting it. I was interested in it because that is the area Bob's family is from, and I have been doing a lot of genealogy research in that area. Bob's GGGrandfather was in the Civil War and fought at Chicamaugua. (sp?) He is buried in Cherokee County, NC.

YES, Ella...author's 1st book! Can you believe it?! Guess he had the "luck of the Irish", didn't he? (Irish being Frank McCourt!)

God Bless,

Eddie

Re: Super Bowl. Joyce, I say Amen to your comments, but don't let the men see this memo, what would they talk about if they didn't have football (my daugher is a great fan, though, as is a lot of women, also, and she changes allegiance everytime she changes residences which is every 4-5 years).

When you get your copy of Cold Mountain, don't let the author's picture scare you away from reading the book. As I said somewhere else, he should have yanked that picture off of there and had a pro take his picture. A very good book!

I'd like to post my rating of Stones here before it gets too late, or there's a tie or something.

I think I'll give it Seven BIG stones .

The things which kept it from a perfect 10 for me were the ephemeral and changing meanings of the metaphors, the failure of the author, in my opinion, to follow consistently a theme to the end, the failure for me to identify or empathize with the main character, the constant annoying shifts in the narrative voice, the irritating and unbelievable attributes of the main protagonist, Trudi, and the "throw it up in the air and see if it comes down on its feet ending."

I think Hegi writes powerfully, and has a true gift. I was so caught up in the portrayals of the Nazi menace that I failed to realize the weaknesses. Renate and her story moved me tremendously. There was so much to deal with, so many images and thoughts, that I failed to note the weaknesses until we started discussing them.

I now think that the character of Trudi weakened the book. I still do not understand WHY a dwarf. Many people feel alienated without being a physically different.

So I give it a 7 for the power of the writing when it was focused, and -3 from a perfect book for the reasons above.

Ginny

I can not fairly vote on "Stones", as I did not buy it or read it. BUT...I did read and enjoy all of the posts and the excellent way it was set up and presented. Can I rate Ros....? If so, she gets a 10! You did a magnificent job, Ros! What direction! (This from someone who needs a lot of direction, with a book she wasn't interested in!) Thanks, Ros. You made it interesting by the way you set the discussion up and everyone's comments were wonderful.

10 for the Book Club!

God Bless,

Eddie

Hi all, have been in SC for a week and so unable to post. Just caught up. Posted my rating of Stones in the Ratings folder (7.5). Because I have been gone, some of my responses to much earlier posts may not make sense. Bear with me, please. Ginny, I still feel that the Stones in the book represent sins, or the people that committed the sins, but probably the former, and that the river did indeed depict life, though a rather trite representation. You also asked why Renate didn't come back--in my opinion, it was to emphasize the evil that Helmut committed in turning his own mother in.

Ros, before I write anymore, I want to thank you for the excellent leadership you have given us through this rather difficul novel. You obviously have spent a great deal of time, and as always, your intelligence and perspicacity shines through.

I was going to nominate COLD MOUNTAIN and had even saved the book page with critiques, etc. to quote, but as usual, I'm a day late and a dollar short, so I will just agree with all alacrity to its preceding nominations! However, I think the Independent Life sounds great. I think we should nominate these two for April and May! Enough, TTYL, Sharon-----PS, Helen, we turned off our water before we left for SC! Thanks for the lesson, tho sorry you had to learn it the hard way!

Also, and thank you Eddie Marie, for that resounding TEN, I feel that way, too.

This has been one of our best. We've still got ratings coming in, thanks Sharon, and we've had the most ratings here that we've had in a long time.

Seeing Eddie Marie's post reminds me of something I wanted to say about Stones, got interruped in mid post, and when I came back to it 45 minutes later, had lost my train of thought: sick puppies here.

It was the "Eddie Marie Principle:" Have you learned anything from this book, and has it changed your life or added to it in any way?

Yes, I did learn from this book. I learned WHY "the Jews didn't leave." This aspect of the horrendous events has always eluded me, and with the character of Herr Abramovitz, and, to a small extent, Trudi, I now see and understand some truths I had had no inkling of: specifically the US ban on Jewish immigration, the confiscation of funds, etc.

So even though it is fiction, I learned facts from it.

My second nomination (WE'RE TAKING NOMINATIONS THRU the 13th)!!! (Is that tomorrow??) Mercy, am so behind, is Palace Walk ~ Ships in 2-3 days Naguib Mahfouz / Paperback / Published 1991 Our Price: $10.36 ~ You Save: $2.59 (20%) Synopsis: The bestselling first volume of Nobel Prize-winning novelist Naguib Mahfouz's Cairo Trilogy is being published in paperback to coincide with the hardcover release of Palace of Desire, the second book. His "masterwork" is the engrossing saga of a Muslim family in Cairo during Eqypt's occupation by British forces in the early 1900s.

Customer Comments CKR526@aol.com , 02/15/97, rating=9: I have traveled to Cairo, and never left my home,facinating! As I read this book, I became familar with the area and the family. I liked them both very much! I was enlighted to a culture that is very much different from my own. I commend Naguib Mahfouz for his wonderful storytelling gift. Anyone who would like to travel to another place and time should cuddle up with this book, and go to Cairo in their mind. I just ordered (Cairo Trilogy II) and anxiously await my next trip! -

There's only this one review, but this book is listed among the "top ten books for a group to read," in one of those Reading Group Guides.

So keep those nominations, and ratings coming thru tomorrow!

Have started A Civil Action and can't put it down.

Can't wait.

Ginny

May I add my kudos to Ros for a masterful job well done, I didn't read the book but did read the comments. Can I rate the comments as a bunch of 10's? Ros should get a 20!

I'd forgotten about "Palace Walk", it sounds exotic and fascinating but I think "Cold Mountain" has already won it hands down with all the nominations.

Eileen Megan

Hey I know alot of people learned a lesson about water from our on going saga. Glad to be of help Sharon...after this I am likely to turn it off when I go to the movies. First I have to finish, unpacking all the boxes. We have discarded enough of our "stuff" so that when and if we do decide to move,we're ready. Unfortunately I lost alot of my library. However these are things that can be replaced. This is all really nothing when compared to the serious illness' that are around us.

Hey Ginny I'm really excited about your latest nomination. I have the trilogy in paperback, been waiting to be read for a long time. Came very highly recommended to me also. If not this time, maybe the next one!!! I had started it and was interrupted (so what else is new) but it is a fascinating look at another time and another culture.

Have started to read, "Civil Action" and find it reads like a piece of fiction. Have questions,questions,questions. Hope I can get enough of it put away by starting time. It's a lengthy one.

Nominate today!!
Nominate today!!
Nominate today!!
or forever hold your peace!! (At least until tomorrow, when we'll Vote tomorrow!!
Vote tomorrow!!
Vote tomorrow!!

You will find a ballot in your mail tonight, and one here tomorrow, just vote for ONE!

And thanks for this great experience, have sent our URL in to the NY TIMES Book Sections Online, maybe they'll give us a nod one of these days!

Ginny

Ginny, I'm going to vote for Cold Mountain for the April selection, with full confidence that my life will have returned to normal by mid February and I will be back!!!!

Super duper job, Ros!!! A perfect 10 !!!

Ginny, my vote is for COLD MOUNTAIN for #1,and INDEPENDENT PEOPLE for #2. However, I think this line-up is the best we've come up with. They all sound good. I'm 2/3 through CIVIL ACTION. It does read like fiction and is very interesting--and very scary! My favorite beverage is water! Sharon

I have to agree with you, GINNY; I started "Civil Action" today and can't put it down either.

Riel

Ginny, My #1 vote is for The Horse Whisperer by Nicholas Evans and #2 vote is for The Diary of Mattie Spenser by Sandra Dallas.

Thanks, Jimmie

I will vote for "Cold Mountain" as my number one choice because so many people have expressed a desire to read it and others have recommended it so highly.

My number two vote is for,"Palace Walk". If it doesn't make it this time,perhaps it will on the next go round.

I nominate "Cold Mountain" so many recommend it. I have known some facinating "mountain folk" in N.C. so I am looking forward to this in April. I had a boss once from Stoney Point, N.C. - as a Florida flat-lander, I asked him, "How do you make a living growing stuff in those mountains (He was the supervisor of Vocational Agriculture for N.C.). He replied - "In the mountains you don't have to make a living you just LIVE! He is 89 and two years ago when I invited him to visit us here at the Beach, he said "You all need to visit me here in Taylorsville - the Beach is so far from my mountains and what if I were to 'croak' at the Beach - it is so far from 'heaven.' Joyce T.

My vote is for Cold Mountain 1st choice and my second choice is The Color of Water.

Joyce: Didn't think anyone had ever heard of Stony Point, NC before, or Taylorsville! That is where my husband was born and we were married there, in Stony Point, 40 years ago! Bob's dad probably knows your former boss...he was a supervisor at Cotton Mill in Stony Point...he is now 92 years old and still lives near his beloved mountains! We have tried several times to "transplant" him with us, in Missouri, but he quickly claims there's too much damn pavement!!! He goes every year to Murphy, NC for Memorial Day. That is where he was raised and all of his people are buried. Can't wait to tell him about your mentioning Stony Point. Thanks, so much!

Ginny: Great job you are doing with this site. It just keeps getting better and better. Your enthusiam is contagious, which makes everyone excited about us!

PS: I am about half way through A Civil Action and it is absolutely fantastic! Will make great discussion.

God Bless

Eddie

You know, I always love coming in here, you never know next what fantastic thing will occur, and just look at Joyce's and Eddie Marie's posts!! Now, isn't that something! Small world, indeed.

Thanks for the kind words, the feeling is exactly like that of the skate polisher for Michelle Kwan....excited and enthusiastic, but if she didn't skate, would be nothing to be enthusiastic over!

What a month we'll have in February: A Civil Action and the Winter Olympics!

I'll vote for Independent People since it looks so good, and The Diary of Mattie Spenser . I agree with Sharon in that these are the best we've had to choose from, but then, you always have good taste.

Ginny

Here's a vote for "THE COLOR OF WATER"

Best

Now, as you all know, Ella has the idea of writing a book about US, the Book Club Online Book Club! First the Book Club then a SeniorNet Cookbook, who knows where we'll end up??

You can find her ideas in progress here: Book Club Book .

She was thinking of reviews, but, maybe, if you're too shy to pen a FULL review, we might try a composite on one or two: you could sum up your feelings on the book by "stupendous," or "stultifying" and we could weave them together.

What do you think??? Go to that URL, which I have just put up in the Heading, and see!!

Ginny

Just have time to register a quick vote for Cold Mountain but would not be disappointed with any of these fine nominations. I choose this one because of the reviews I've read and also because I just bought it and am anxious to get to it.

Looks like "Cold Mountain" has it. Were you going to have the "runner up" be the next book? If so I'd like to nominate "Palace Walk" and "Horse Whisperer". I also saw the PBS show about the man who "talked" to horses - excellent - didn't know that was what the book was about.

Eileen Megan

Hi--I`m going along with the crowd--Cold Mountain--(Main reason--husband received it as a Christmas gift). Number two choice would be Independent People.

First choice: Cold Mountain. It seems we'll have some wonderful resource people to guide and enrich the discussion if this is chosen.
Second choice: Independent People. One of those "ought-to-reads" like Giants in the Earth, Pelle the Conqueror, Kristin Lavransdatter.

Ros

My #1 vote is for Cold Mountain, and #2 is for Independent People. All of the nominations look good but since I have read both of these I know they are worth discussing and enjoying!

Russ

Hi Folks,

My choice is #1 Independent People, my 2nd choice is The Seeing Glass.I personally would be pleased with any of them. Di

EVERYONE GO TO SENIORNET BOOK REVIEW AND POST A REVIEW OF ONE OF THOSE BOOKS - I'VE READ SUCH CLEVER THINGS RIGHT HERE - THE WHOLE WORLD SHOULD READ THEM

Love that comment about A Civil Action being scary because their favorite beverage is water! Does that make me Smile. We have so much talent here, we must share it and do a good thing while we are at it.

My vote is for Cold Mountain - gave it to my daughter to read, who lives in another state - well, she'll have to just mail it back to me.

Dear friends,

I will vote for The Color of Water, and hope that someday, if even if it is not chosen as a book that the club reads together you will give yourself the GIFT of reading it yourself. Inspiring, true and uplifting.

My second choice will be Cold Mountain.

Today I bought The Road from Coorain in paperback. Only $11 in the bookstore, Walden's, and with a preferred reader card received 10% off. I know I will love it. I didn't not realize that the author went from the girl who grew up on a farm in Australia to become the first woman president of Smith College.

I also loved A Civil Action, and am anxious to discuss it with you.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Well, I DO believe our Patrick is having problems getting in here, as I just posted the votes he mailed me, and they disappeared!! WELL!!

Trying again:

Coming Home by Rosemunde Pilcher
The Horse Whisperer...by Nicholas Evans...

Now, I'm not even going to ASK our Patrick if the Pilcher title looks super good to him at this point!! (He's been in India for....gosh, three months?? Anyway, it's been a LONG time). Can't wait to read of his adventures.

This is our best ever turn out for voting, and you can still give your rating, which was also a good turn out!

Ginny

I have to jump in here and vote for Cold Mountain as it has awesome reviews and is still on top of the best sellers list. I think it looks like a wonderful read and will make lively discussions.

I listened to The Horse Whisperer on audio cassette and almost went off the road, as I was so enraptured by the story. This would have to be my number two pick!

I, too, am about one-third of the way through A Civil Action and am considering switching to bottled water. I am not in any way a non-fiction reader, but this is written so well that it moves along at a fiction-like speed. This is wonderful! I am so glad we are reading this book.

Ginny, you did such a beautiful table!!! Thanks!!!

Carole

Thanks, Carole!

Well, I guess it will come as a HUGE surprise, but Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier, is our April choice,and, by all accounts, THE book to read:

Check it out:

From the author of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil:

John Berendt : Cold Mountain is a heartbreakingly beautiful story, elegantly told and utterly convincing down to the last haunting detail.

also:

Larry Brown : This is one of the best books I've read in a long time, and I cried when it was over. It's simply a miracle.

also: Frank Conroy : Cold Mountain is a superb novel--thrilling, richly detailed and powerful. I was spellbound for two days.

Looks like a book a man can love, too, so this is fiction for ALL our members.

Also check THIS out:

Check out these titles! Readers who bought Cold Mountain also bought:

The Perfect Storm : A True Story of Men Against the Sea; Sebastian Junger Into Thin Air : A Personal Account of the Mount Everest Disaster; Jon Krakauer Angela's Ashes : A Memoir; Frank McCourt

Now, isn't THAT interesting?? Into Thin Air is a future choice of the Travel and Adventure Book Club !!!! and The Perfect Storm just HAPPENS to be the choice of the Travel Book Club starting on JANUARY 20th!! It's Non Fiction, and they say it's the "perfect book!"

Join Katie Bates there and find out!!

Our Rating for Stones From the River was 6.9 which rounds off to 7!! There were several 5's which brought it lower than expected.

Now, this is our best turnout for voting and for ratings, and thank you so much!!

Now, if you are browsing around today you might want to go LOOK at the Ratings and Reviews Section: Ratings and Reviews and see how nice it now looks!

Russell Cervin will start tomorrow with A Civil Action !

Ginny