YES!

Oh, this looks wonderful. I read all the reviews in Amazon.com and loved reading that this author who lived a thousand years ago wrote an epic covering 75 years, some would call it a love story, without having any models to follow. No novels to copy, no classes in epic-length stories. One reviewer noticed that her story of one man's emotional connections proves that nothing much has changed....we are much the same, emotionally, no matter how much time has passed.

Here are some notes I took on the various translations. Charlie, which translation are you thinking about?

Waley, 1933 Someone wrote that he distorts the original and makes the man into an Edwardian gentleman. Another writes that Waley's translation is the most "beautiful."

Edward Seidensticker, 1976 "Solid" translation, more "matter of fact."

Royall Tyler, 2001 unexpurgated, heavily annotated, more "graceful, convincing rendering," series of appendixes on clothing, colors, poetic allusions, glossaries, character lists. Goes back to the original, is "richer, fuller, more complicated." $40 at Amazon.

Each is around 1,100 pages.

betty

You all are in for a treat with this one and thank you, Charlie, very much for affording this opportunity to our readers here, everybody should read this, and now Betty has mentioned this new translation, which I have a feeling Charlie knows about.

Boy, we here in the Books are HUMMING! You can depend on us for your reading background, this is fabulous.

Light years ago I took a couse in Asian Lit, (don't remember the title of the course) and we did this and the Panchatantra and several other things, it was pure magic.

The Western Literary tradition is NOT all there is, many thanks, Charlie for bringing this to our attention.

An excellent adjunct to this study also is the old documentary film Juggernaut, concerning India/ caste/ and Indira Ghandi's use of money given her to improve the country which she used instead to develop some sort of missile system.

The movie shows the progress of this "juggernaut," the actual missile itself, across the country, propelled by teams of Indian laborers, much like we imagine the ancient Egyptians moved the pyramid blocks? It's a powerful statement, but I'm sure it's no longer available. Still, if you can get your hands on it, the entire subject of caste, also covered, as I recall, is a stunner.

Congratulations!

ginny

WOw! This has been one of my favorites for many years. I believe it was the Waley translation i read. I will happily take part in this discussion, and look forward to revisiting heian Japan. Have you read The Pillow Book of Sei Shonagon? It is an interesting companion to Genji, having a woman of the court as the central character.

Wow. Looks like we have some “Genji veterans” here. I’m already in over my head!! Good work, Betty.

Yes, there is a new translation just out (Royall Tyler) – all 1200 pages and $50 worth!

Tyler has completed the first major "Genji" translation of the 21st century, and it sets a new standard. Not only is this latest English edition the most scrupulously true to the original, it also is superbly written and genuinely engaging. On occasion Tyler even manages to give us a taste of the formal aspect of Murasaki's style, with some wonderfully meandering, clause-embedded sentences. His technique is quite deliberate, and just as a reader feels the need to come up for air, the realization dawns that we are in fact following a subterranean map of Murasaki's prose. (LA Times)

The Edward Seidensticker edition:

For the Everyman Library edition, this spellbinding novel is introduced by Edward Seidensticker, whose translation is the fullest and most accurate English version of the Japanese classic

Seidensticker versions (abridged) in paperback:

This edition, recognized as the finest version in English, contains a dozen chapters from early in the book, carefully chosen by the translator, Edward G. Seidensticker, with an introduction explaining the selection. It is illustrated throughout with woodcuts from a seventeenth-century edition.

And the 1930’s Waley translation.

---

Honestly, I was thinking about the Seidensticker abridged version – and I NEVER read abridged versions! I see that won’t fly with this group. So barring that, I waver between the “latest and greatest” (but price is an issue) and the Seidensticker full version. We don’t have to decide yet – we’ll see who else might be interested. We’ve got Barbara (Hi, Barbara) and my friend Betty and Mrs. Watson. What a treat to have you with us who read this years ago. Ginny “congratulated” us but that didn’t sound like a commitment. Ginny – with your expertise on this novel you MUST promise to at least drop in along the way, ok? (Of course, we’d love to have you full time).

I am just intrigued as all get out that this is regarded by many as the “first” novel. Fascinating.

Charlie

Oh how exciting, I did the Seidensticker, I remember it now because that was Pearl Buck's maiden name and I recall at the time being bemused by it, oh I'd love to do it again, will you make a unit of it and will you be pairing it with others, we have needed this so much!

I bet I have the book, too, but would like to get whatever you all decide on.

ginny

I will vote for the Tyler translation, although there are several other interesting items in the B&N catalog--one about the love poems, one about the art, a reader's guide, etc. I note that Sei Shonogon's book is still inprint, I have lost mine so I will get this one again, too. Lots of fun ahead. Thanks for this treat.

I'm going for the Tyler version, too. $40 at Amazon, or maybe at B and N if it's $40. This may be a discussion that can work using more than one translation, as other discussions have. I work hard to keep my book bills as low as possible, but this new translation looks wonderful. More justification...I'd have to spend $20 anyway, so it's only $20 more that is the extra cost. This is the one on which to spend $20 extra.

betty

My copy was worn out long ago, so I needed an excuse to get a new one. I will gift myself and get a new Sei Shonogon, also.

Yesterday's Wall Street Journal has a wonderful article on this book and the Tyler translation in particular. In its Review/ Books section, Lesley Downer says in an article called An Old Masterpiece Gets a New Spin that this, the world's first novel, is a "gorgeous evocation of a time and place that have long since disappeared. But it's also an exploration of feelings and relations between men and women, as fresh and beguiling to readers today as when it was first written. It's Proustian in its complexity, its vast cast of characters and its absorption in the minutiae of human relations. It's alo gripping, moving and at times extrememly funny."

Wow, sounds fabulous, huh.

The article compares all three translations and I have to say after reading this article, I, too, need the Tyler as the description of what he's attempted in his seven year labor of love is totally impressive and the contrast is pretty strong.

Jeepers, footnotes, handomely boxed, charmingly illustrated, maps, depiction of a typical nobleman's home, glossaries.....

Sounds like what the WSJ says it is, a "landmark event!"

I think we really need to read this one!

ginny

I ordered the Tyler translation yesterday. I believe though, that anyone with any translation can join us, don't you think? We've done multiple translations before - and it's not a hindrance. In fact, it adds some interesting sidebars. Does March sound ok to everyone here?

Charlie

YES!! And I do hope we can have some of the other translations because the comparison is fascinating and would add a LOT to our discussion, I'm tempted to order the Sidenstricker myself if I can't find it, as well.

ginny

I'll be here in March, and, as I noted earlier, I will be contributing items from Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book as well. There is currently a series of mysteries about 17th century Japan in the Shogun's court. They author is Laura Joh Rowland and her mysteries are puzzling but I enjoy most the look at the lives of the people. Her protagonist is Sano Ichiro, the Shogun's Investigator. In the Shogun's interests he travels from the Emporor's court at Kyoto to the island ghetto where Dutch traders bring modern marvels like guns to Japan. One of his collegues is a disgraced physician, who dabbled too much in forbidden Western medical knowledge. Great fun!

Serendipity.

Would someone please tell the extent of Charlie's leaving? Is he still doing this book? Is he still here in any capacity? There is not a central place for such information, but I need to know about this discussion before contemplating a $50 book. $40?

Joan....do you think I shouldn't attempt this book? Or, may I sit under the table? (grinning, at least) You're right about Ginny and Mrs. Watson...fine company, indeed.

Betty

Unfortunately we are sorry to announce that due to the withdrawal of the Discussion Leader of this Proposed Discussion, The Tale of the Genji, the future of this discussion is greatly in doubt.

Therefore I would not buy this book until we have secured another Books Discussion Leader willing to take this on. We are in the process of writing all the Books Discussion Leaders to inquire as to who might want to lead it, if, indeed, anyone does. We will let you know the result as soon as we do.

If you have already bought this book specifically for this discussion please click on my name and email me?

I do apologize for this, but it is out of our control. This proposed discussion's future is uncertain.

ginny

Oh, Ginny, rats. Charlie's absence is so strongly felt. Not just for the uncertain fate of this discussion, but the bracing way he has with words. How I look forward to seeing his name on a post once again. About Genji, I would love to lead it, but I have only one hour/day to read, and cannot commit to the heavy burden which leading a discussion requires. Another hour for SeniorNet reading and writing posts, and my liesure time is all gone! Used to be that I could count on my memory to carry me once I had read something, but no more, I must read and reread, make notes, etc., and still get it wrong! Ain't growing old grand?

I am very pleased to be able to announce today that Barbara St. Aubrey has agreed to take this discussion beginning on March 4, and running for 6 weeks, she thinks she can manage 200 pages per week.

This discussion has now been reactivated as a PROPOSED Discussion and it remains to see if a quorum still exists?

Thank you very much , Barbara!

ginny

No I do not have a personality similar to Charles - but I have wanted to read the book and together we can make this read an interesting exploration into early China and Japan in addition to this woman's experience.

I do not have my copy as of yet, and so I am still ignorant about the story, never the less, I will research some background during that time in the history of the Far East and have those links available when the permenent heading is created - if there is anything special that y'all hoped to see in this discussion please let me know and we will see what we can work out.

Barbara: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Count me in.

OK now that I have done a bit of homework - the Genji is the story of a boy becomes man, and later grandfather. It is written by a woman - aha - also saw some information about Sei Shonagon's Pillow Book. This is going to be great - what do y'all think can we discuss about 200 pages a week? There are 1200 pages broken into 9 chapters. If we only do a chapter a week we will be discussing for over two months.

Any one have their book yet to know if some of the chapters are a bit shorter and could be combined?

Betty are you still with us on this read?

Hope you can join us Ginny?

Who else could we rustle up for this tome?

Barbara: From my memory of the other translation, I forget which one, there are some stretches of the book that I skipped over, since there was not much action. When I read it before, ti was for the narrative and the "color". I am not very philosophical,sotend to bypass these areas. It was not what I would call a fast read. However, this translation could be much different!

Shonagon's book is a memoir, and as I recall she takes a couple of swipes at Murasaki Shikibu whom she seemed to regard as bit of a stick. But then Shonagon was a tongue-wagger who loved juicy gossip so Murasaki may have struck her as a bit too "high falutin'".

Isn't there a published diary of Lady Murasaki's? Seem to remember that in addition to _Gengi_ there was one other piece of her writing extant.

There is a non-fiction book, _The World of the Shining Prince_ that gives a background to the Heian period, especially the court life, which was incredibly ritualized and isolated from the everday world. Heian court life makes the ritual and scheming of the Sun King's court look like kindergarten. _The World of the Shining Prince_ is not very long and is quite interesting in its own right.

One peculiarity of court life of this time was its similarity to the French bedroom farce - though without (usually) the ribaldry. Much of life was conducted behind blinds, screens, fans, by writing and so on, and the opportunities and occasions for mistaken identity and misunderstanding, duplicity, getting caught, etc. were numerous, sometimes humorous and oftentimes humiliating or disasterous. Gengi has several of these, one of which, involving a woman called Lady Nasturtium, is very wrenching.

I have read the Waley and Seidensticker versions, and I would suggest that if you read one of these and not the new, pricey translation with all the notes that you had really better read _The World of the Shining Prince_. I personally feel that without some understanding of the interplay amongst Buddhism, Shinto and various beliefs in spirit possession (not to mention the broader aspects of Heian culture) that one will be lost. These people are operating in a world that is as complicated in its intertwining of personal life/government/religion as the world of Charlemagne or the Byzantine court, but of course the religious assumptions and superstitions are not even as vaguely familiar to us as those of the latter.

It is quite an amazing book, and I think Murasaki must have been a fascinating woman. And I cannot help but ponder the fact that one of the most important female characters in the book - if not _the_ most important female character is named Murasaki......I wonder what the court thought when her work was finally brought to light and read. No wonder Sei Shonagon was tart in her observations. Surely no one could have resisted comparing the fictional character to the author. Using the same name seems to beg for it. Was the fictional Murasaki, who is, I think, the most winning and complex character in the book, a kind of revenge for slights and disappointments that the real Murasaki sustained while she participated in court life?

Great Japanese writers have often taken on the task of translating Gengi into modern Japanese, it is something of a cultural challenge. None of these are available in English. The only one I would like to read was done by the (still living, I think) female author Fumiko Enchi. She is a major modern writer in Japan, and two of her books, _The Waiting Years_ and _Masks_ have been translated into English. Both have incredibly powerful female protagonists and are are tales of slowly collecting female frustration and almost demonic will to triumph. _Masks_, a very short novel, is a tale of ruthless calculation and manipulation set in modern Japan but with the esoteric world of the classic Noh theatre and its famous masks as the fulcrum. Given what I saw of Enchi in these two novels I cannot imagine what she would have made of Gengi with its great parade of female characters, not the least of which is the fascinating Lady Rokujo whose anger is so powerful that it turns the world of Gengi upside down. If _Gengi_ doesn't get selected, take a quick read through Enchi's _Masks_ at least.

Jack

Jack - how wonderful - you not only read the book but others that lend some light to the history and culture - Looking forward to you joining us - We here on Seniornet stick by one of our beloved posters LJ Kline (who was at the beginning of this experiment in reading and sharing on this site) tenants which is, if there are three or more we have a discussion - with you, in an addition to Mr. Watson and myself that is a definite three. There are couple of others that have indicated interest but we have not heard back since the changes have been made -

Jack, I do not think any of us have the expertise you mention but we are all very good at research and learning - this may not be the great classroom experience but it will open our eyes to more than what we currently know about this culture, theology, time and place in history. The other books you mention may be a resource that some of us would like to either buy or definatly hear from you any information that would enlighten our reading and the discussion.

My own background has been in the study of Daoism for about 15 years now and we have read here on Seniornet several books with a Japanese setting that required much research and so we will not be completly out with the wolves.

Welcome - WELCOME we are really looking forward to your participation.

Jack: I agree about The WOrld of the SHining Prince. Waley must be the translation I read. The observation about Murasaki's character, the subtlety of that escaped me at the time I read this book. What a treat to have you here. You really think the new translation is not as good as the others? I think the Seidensticker has lots of art? Very decorative? I was thinking of buying it when it came out. Which one should I buy now? I'll want the Shonagon, World, and one of the Genjis. Every year, my personal calendar is one of the ones with Japanese art. So soothing in my hectic office to gaze into that other world, silent, full of color, leading me down distant paths into ...

Hey, Jack, good to see you back! Jack always has the BEST book recommendations, so have ordered The World of the Shining Prince, and it looks fabulous as well.

Barb, I have asked for the new Genji translation for Christmas, and am planning to participate, but may have to lead another discussion in March, so would not want my own name counted as the quorum slot. I took a great course in Asian Lit and remember the Sidenstricker translation with great fondness.

It would really be super if we all could have a different version because I read one article which compared them and the comparisons are amazing and very educational.

The older translations in paperback are quite reasonable, too, so if somebody is reading this and saying well I don't think I want to pay all that much for the new translation the older ones are still not only servicable but interesting in their own right. I think this will be a wonderful voyage of discovery.

Good way to spend the winter, curled up with a classic and historic book, and learn something new.

ginny

Mrs. Watson wrote: You really think the new translation is not as good as the others?

I think you must have misunderstood me. I haven't read the new one, but I did think that having all of the notes, etc. that it might be the most helpful all-in-one tool. It sounds as if the Tyler translation would be very interesting.......maybe I'll just...

Jack

My books are in storage in Portugal, so I will need to order a new copy from the U.K. or the U.S. - probably the latest translation. But before I do that, is it clear that the discussion is on?

Jack

Jack, a good question, every Proposed discussion needs a quorum of three, one DL and two participants, I'm not sure we have that, everyone who is planning to be in this discussion, could you please sign in?

Jack, that "Prince" book you recommended came and it looks fabulous, thank you so much for that hint, had never heard of it.

I have a lot of irons in the fire in March so my own presence here should be counted more as a happy chirper than participant.

How about the rest of you??

ginny

Count me in.

But I have to send for the book from the U.S. pronto. Jack

Jack: Looks like it's you and me, plus dropper-in Ginny, plus DL Barbara. That sounds like a quorum to me. Let's go for it. You'll have the Wyatt translation, so will I, plus I''ll get Sei Shonogon and The World of the Shining Prince. What fun!

This discussion isn't starting for a bit and I have just come back to the world and to literature - let's see who else we can drum up and yes, if you, Mrs. Watson and Jack are reading the book than with me we have a quorum.

Thank you so much Ginny for getting in this site and keeping some diologue active - I haven't had my family here for Christmas since 1986 and where I had a great time it was a juggling act trying to do all the things we did as they grew up as well as, those activities that interst a group of grandboys that never came to my house during Christmas. I turned into Suzy Homemaker. Yesterday had to get some folks out as our housing market is heating up again. Today I spent the day trying to clear the decks - changing beds, washing comforters, gathering flowers into one vase and the growing flowers planted out-doors, taking down most of the green boughs, having brunch with my very best friends because today we celebrate "Kings Day" with a three silver crowns backed in a circular sweet bread decorated with colorful orange, red, blue, yellow and green sugar crystals.

Quite a leap from Mexican pastry to Japanese medeveal culture. Jack I found the books you suggested but haven't ordered either yet. I was suprised to learn they are novels - I found a whole slew of novels that seem to have developed from the The Tale of Genji

This discussion doesn't even start till March 4, so I think we have a few more weeks to drum up one or two others that would like to join us.

Let's give it till the end of January and that gives folks all of February to borrow or purchase their book. If anyone finds a Paper back copy that is less than the $40 please post the information for us.

OK found some other translations - YOU MUST BE CARFUL THAT YOU ARE PURCHASING AN UNABRIDGED EDITION. There are many paperbacks that are abridged editions at very affordable prices.

TITLE: The Tale of Genji
ISBN: 0394604059
Publisher: Random House, Incorporated
Publish Date: January 1977
Author: Murasaki Shikibu
Binding: Hardcover
List Price: USD 16.95

half.com (NEW/USED) $10.10 shipping 2.99 = $13.09
In stock Media Mail/ 4-8 days

Alibris.com (New/Used) $19.95
(Hardcover. Modern Library, New York (1960) Very Good. First Giant edition)
In stock Shipped in one day

this is the latest edition and the one I have
TITLE: The Tale of Genji
ISBN: 0670030201
Publisher: Viking Penguin
Publish Date: October 2001
Author: Murasaki Shikibu, Royall Tyler (Translator) | Murasaki Shikibu
Binding: Hardcover,1200pp.
List Price: USD 60.00

BooksAMillion (CLUB-annual fee - US $5.00. members receive an additional 10% off all merchandise purchased online discount also applies to purchases at retail stores.)
$37.80 shipping 3.48 =$ 41.28
Ships within 24hours - Standard ground / 5-10 days

TITLE: Tale of Genji
ISBN: 0394735307
Publisher: Knopf, Alfred A. Incorporated
Publish Date: 07/01/1978
Author: Lady Murasaki
Translated by: Edward G. Seidensticker
Binding: Paperback
List Price: USD 29.95

Amazon $20.96 shipping3.99 = $24.95
Ships in 24 hours Standard/ 3-7 days

Just to confirm, I have sent away for the Tyler translation, and have decided that even if it isn't pursued on Seniornet I will give it another read.

As for the books that I recommended being novels....I'm totally puzzled. To my knowledge I haven't recommended any novels, a couple of non-fiction books on the Heian period and a guide to Genji itself, and I think I mentioned the "Gossamer Years," which is a diary, and Murasaki Shikibu's diary. If you looked up some of my recs and came up with novels something is amiss somewhere.

I have seen some lunkheads on Amazon (even in the supposedly professional introductory reviews) referring to some of the Heian period diaries as novels, which they most definitely are not. Perhaps that is the problem.

Jack

Aha - Jack thanks for the heads up - now I am more than interested - Maybe I miss-understood your post but the two books that I thought you suggested and that I plan to persue are The World of the Shining Prince and by contemporary author Fumiko Enchi - Masks

I'm remembering especially the bit describing Masks where the information said it was a Novel using the background of the theater.

So glad you have ordered the book-s - I am just getting into mine now that the holidays are over - of course that latest translation does have another cover than the one pictured in the heading - but the heading graphic does have the title of the book and is the cover of an older translation.

Jack I'm so pleased you will be joining us - we definatly have a quorum and so this discussion will be a go - if you are in touch with anyone that may also be interested in finally reading this tome, please let them know about this discussion and maybe they will also join us.

From the little I have learned so far, it looks like this was originaly published in English back in the 1920s as a series of six books.

Here is one of my earlier posts on the different translations......

Waley, 1933 Someone wrote that he distorts the original and makes the man into an Edwardian gentleman. Another writes that Waley's translation is the most "beautiful."

Edward Seidensticker, 1976 "Solid" translation, more "matter of fact."

Royall Tyler, 2001 unexpurgated, heavily annotated, more "graceful, convincing rendering," series of appendixes on clothing, colors, poetic allusions, glossaries, character lists. Goes back to the original, is "richer, fuller, more complicated."

I'm still in the thinking-about-it stage. Will let you know soon if I decide I can commit to this, Barbara. It's awfully tempting.

Betty

Oh Betty what a boon to this didscussion you would be - think hard and I will think hard and I will hope, hope and hope that you really will join us. I think the cover in the heading is the Edward Seidensticker translation.

That is what I think would be so great if you did deside to join and get that copy so we had the variety; which is so true, it makes things interesting.

Have started reading a novel called "The Tale of Murasaki" which is based on Murasaki Shikibu's poems, diaries, and episodes from the tale of Genji. It's "lite," but not unrewarding reading...the author has the diarist of "The Gossamer Diary" as Murasaki Shikibu's aunt. I'm wondering if she was in real life.......will have to research that.

The cover illustration is from the Seidensticker two-volume boxed set.

Now that the cold wave has passed, which makes southern European houses into perfect iceboxes, I'm getting my enthusiasm back and am anxious to do some serious reading.......and discussing.

Jack

Perhaps this has been posted before, however, in the event it has not. Below is a web site by Dalby giving the background/background materials of her novel based on the life of Mursaki Shikibu. Very well done site.

http://www.taleofmurasaki.com/doubledaypage.htm

Jack

Jack thanks for the link - a beautiful site - not only a wonderful source of information but the site is beautifully done.

Don't know about your cold Jack but we have had a cold front that we call Blue Northers that usually last from 3 to 5 days - well we are back into the sixties and low seventies again where we belong - when I opened the garage door the other day a whoosh of cold air came out that was like a physical force - our homes here are built to manage heat so much better than the cold - all I want to do when it gets cold like that is bundle on the sofa under quilts and never get out of my jamies. And then yes - enthusiasm slowly drains from the mind when all you can think of is how to avoid getting out from under the quilts.

With my new tape deck that holds 5 CDs I played and really listened to all the Beethoven Symphonies by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Wonderful strong work but than I had to change the mood with a little Tchaikovsky, Gershwin and Michael Ball of London theatre fame.

Now that would be interesting hmmm I bet I could find a CD of Japanese traditional music. Hmmmm.

Hi, folks:

I own this book and read a good part of it a few years ago. If I can find it, I'll try to participate in this discussion. My books have not been unpacked since my daughter and her partner moved back to this house, and I moved into the apartment addition here a year and a half ago. Dorian has promised to bring in some of the boxes which contain my books from her studio where they currently are. If I can locate The Tale of Genji, you can count me in.

Mal

Super Malryn - we can always depend on a good meaty post from you - you have added so much to so many discusssions.

Why, thanks, Barb. I could say the same for you twice over. I'll try to get Dorian to bring in some book boxes on the weekend.

Mal

Why couldn't I just be independently wealthy at the moment of ordering books, only then, I'd settle for just those 10 seconds every 2 weeks.

To order this book, it would have to be the expensive Tyler translation because THAT'S what I fell in love with months ago when looking around. If I ordered what I could afford, the older translation, it would feel like a different book to me. Things have changed, money-wise, since I first drooled over the new tranlation. Life is too damn precarious, if you ask me. That wouldn't happen to be the theme of this book, would it?

ö betty

Ahhh Betty I know what you mean - the budget never seems to do all we want it to do - I have searched and searched - the cheapest I can find it is the $42 plus shipping - haven't looked yet in the bookstores - tax may end up being cheaper than shipping if the set can be purchased for the $42 - what to do, what to do.

Have book, will discuss, when do we start? Jan 20/02 Nemaste, Luana

Great Luana - we are scheduled for the first part of March and because of some personal scheduling I asked them not for March 1 but March 4. We will probably be up for some pre discussion talk sometime in February.

It arrived yesterday - gorgeous. And the notes seem very helpful and not too intrusive.

Jack

Hurray for you Jack - isn't it fun getting a delivery of books - there is something so exciting about opening a package that you know are the books you ordered.

Jack the link you found for us is in the paragraph just under the graphic - it is a great one to explore.

Ok folks have fun getting some background information to help you better appreciate the story. I thought it was interesting when I read about the colors of the clothes that each of the five colors represent a different status or level within the society.

Some of these links you can get lost in - the one that is fun is the travel link that has today photos of the various locations mentioned in the book.

Lots of characters in this story and so having the list available may help. Then the geneology chart I Thought was interesting - enjoy - from what I understand it will also be good for us to have an understanding of Shintoism and Buddhism. From what I have read the court was more attached to Shintoism and the populas Buddhism.

Ok enjoy till we start discussing the book March 4 - in the meantime if you have any thoughts as a result of exploring these links please share them with us.

Barbara wrote: " - from what I understand it will also be good for us to have an understanding of Shintoism and Buddhism. From what I have read the court was more attached to Shintoism and the populas Buddhism."

It may have been the other way around to some degree in Murasaki's time. Shinto was the native religion and very local in its focus, Buddhism was highly sophisticated and still heavily skewed in the direction of the upper classes, being an import at the imperial level - I'm not sure that active proselytizing among the masses of commoners had taken off in a big way yet. If I remember correctly Murasaki lived more or less at the point where there was an expansion of Buddhist sects in the direction of popularization as a reaction to the original sects that had prevailed, and then sometime later there were several waves of popular Buddhism that had a huge impact on Japanese culture and society.

While the imperial family had close connexions with the Shinto shrines at Kamo and especially Ise, and Shinto practices permeated all levels of Japanese culture; nevertheless, I would say that Buddhism was the major religious preoccupation of Heian aristocrats. My impression is that, aside from sincere personal devotion, Heian Buddhism was also attractive in the same way that Counter-Reformation Catholicism (in one aspect) was - as entertaining spectacle. Buddhist ceremonies were "theatre" in the same way that the spectacular services with the music of Monteverdi and Vivaldi were aristocratic entertainments in Venice. Shingon ceremonies are very opulent and esoteric, though Tendai became more elaborate as it was influenced by Shingon.

Here is a link on Heian period Buddhism.
http://www.uwec.edu/Academic/curric/greidebe/Chinese.Japan/student.web.pages/Women.Japan&China/jesse.index.women/buddhism_in_heian_japan.htm

The forms of Japanese Buddhism that most Westerners are familiar with, i.e. Zen, Nichiren and Jodo Shinshu, did not exist as such in Heian Japan.

Also, Japanese Buddhist schools/sects are part of the Mahayana (Great Vehicle) branch of Buddhism, which were/are practiced in Tibet, China, Vietnam and Japan. (The other is nowadays called Theravada (Way of the Elders) Buddhism, or sometimes Nikaya Buddhism (referring to the original layer of Buddhist scriptures called Nikayas, meaning "collections." In the past this branch was referred to by Mahayana Buddhists as Hinayana Buddhism (Lesser Vehicle) and was almost always intended pejoratively as a comparison.)

Mahayana Buddhism has a vast array of very literary, very long - and often esoteric - scriptures (sutras) that it accepts as canonical in addition to the ancient Nikayas. Most Mahayana Buddhist traditions/sects focus around the interpretation, use and devotion to one particular sutra, or related group of sutras, without usually denying the authenticity of others (in this Buddhism was, and is much more flexible than Western religions.) Thus, the Tendai sect concentrates on the Lotus Sutra. This sutra was often a favorite with educated women because it alone of the sutras in use in Heian times _explicitly_ teaches that women may achieve nirvana and release from future rebirth _in_their_female_forms/bodies_ and are not in a final end step reborn as men and then achieve release. Conventional Japanese Buddhist teaching in Murasaki's time was more conservative and felt otherwise.

The native Shinto religion did not have the sophisticated literature of Buddhism and its cosmology had not been systematized nor made the attention of philosophical thought. The centralization of the Shinto religion and the development of what Westerners call "emperor worship" were creations of (mainly) 19th century Japan and the development of what came to be known as State Shinto. These late turns in the history of Shinto having been the result of the Meiji Restoration and reactions to Western ideas and influence, and, thus, are not a part of the Genji world.

Jack

Great Stuff Jack - I also found some information about both Shinto and Buddhism as practiced in Japan during the Heian period - My understanding is that Shinto is a devotion that centered in nature and the sun worship is important in our reading this story - I am not posting this from my home and so I do not have the sites available just now - But I will add your site Jack and a couple of others to the heading - All these links will be in the heading till the end of the month when they will be put on a page that we can link to from the heading for future reference.

It will be fun I think noting all this as we read - my guess is that we will see sentences filled with symbolic wording that would go over our heads if we do not have some of this background.

Jack back to your understanding of Buddhism - I am so glad you are grounded in the differences - seems to me I remember getting into a bit of the history of the early splits in Buddhism - my background is more into Daoism which is more Chinese - I've been a student of Tao for the past 16 years. There is some similarities to Buddhism but the actual Buddhist philosophy and worship I am dependent on reading and others for direction - so I am delighted you are going to be able to add some of your knowledge to this discussion.

Look I am probably going to be an infrequent poster for the next week - please just add your thoughts and excitement as your read and learn or just share your thoughts - please carry on with our coffee klutch - from what they are sharing with me it appears my hard drive is going on my home computer and soooooo - I will be able to catch y'all here at the office while my computer is with the "Vet," but I will not have all my 'stuff' with me.

The following looks like a good orientation on Shinto, some of it is relevant only to modern times, but the author's presentation is very clear so that references to the present era are obvious. There are even a small number of interesting photos.

http://www.ox.compsoc.net/~gemini/simons/historyweb/shinto.html

Jack

The following site will give one some orientation on Mahayana Buddhism, which is the Buddhist tradition on which all Japanese Buddhist sects are based. It may be most useful in explaining how Mahayana diverges from the Theravada/(Hinayana) tradition of SE Asia and India, which represents the earlier and more conservative side of Buddhism. Otherwise, it is a bit mindboggling, diving quickly into the most refined (and highfaluting) levels of Mahayana philosophy, which rarely concerned/concern the everyday believer. Mahayana Buddhism is markedly devotional, which I don't think comes across on this site but is certainly what one will run into in Genji a lot.

While this site is Vietnamese in orientation the explanations are valid for Japan, etc.

One can do a Google search on Tendai and Shingon and come up with some sites that give explanations of these sects (which were the most popular with the Heian court), but again the philosophy is mindboggling, and it becomes easy to see why it is the rituals rather than be beliefs that are featured in Genji.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8916/index2.html

Jack

Fabulous sites Jack - the photos are wonderful - I read all of the Shinto site and most of the Buddhist site - again I am hampered being in the office and having to get not only my work done but I'm a real estate broker and we share these computers - I can't hog the computer - looks like they are only getting to diagnose my computer this evening and so I will not have it back till sometime next week - If I put anything in the heading from these PCs my expereince has been - a huge problem - I have a Mac and the heading is created on my Mac - and so adding these links to the heading must wait till I get my Mac back from the "Vet."

Looks like Shintoism is the older beleif but strongly influenced by Buddhism about 500 years before our story.

I wonder if the reason the Shinto following was disbanded after WW2 was because it encouraged a war like thinking or because it was associated with the Crown which I understand the crown was like the manifistation of God on earth. Regardless we are really trying to better understand the combination of philosophies during the eleventh century. From the links you found it looks like this was a time when both religions or philosophies were entwined and Shintoism was not a seperate force.

There is a character in the Genji, the daughter of an emperor, who becomes the Kamo priestess as was the custom in the Imperial family(Kamo being a highly revered Shinto shrine.)

During Murasaki Shikibu's lifetime there was only one Kamo priestess, who served for more than half a century, through five reigns. When an Imperial daughter became the Kamo priestess she was expected to be undefiled, and one of those defilements was the association with Buddhism - the Imperial priestesses were, I have read, not able to take Buddhist scriptures, prayer beads, etc. with them when they became associated with the Kamo Shrine.

The great Kamo priestess of Murasaki's era was a devout Buddhist and the religious poetry she wrote is on the site below.

There was, however, a melding of Buddhism and Shinto to some degree, and one particular tradition/philosophy developed that attempted a very rationalized synthesis of the two religions. The Japanese usually practiced both religions without too much sense of conflict in their everyday lives. However, behind this intellectual accomodation and popular melding was a basic antipathy in both religious traditions to the other religion and this was never too far from the surface.

Far later than the time of our story, in the 19th century, an active persecution of Buddhism was initiated in an attempt to restore Shinto to its pre-Buddhist primacy, this despite the fact that Buddhism had become by this time an integral part of Japanese culture and society.

http://music.acu.edu/www/iawm/pages/reference/senshi.html

Jack

Dearest Jack - Oh Jack what a beautiful site - I came in yesterday and after I linked I traveled the site for hours and hours - The graphics that went with the poetry of this priestess are spectacular. Just a beautiful site - Thank you, thank you!

Of course I was up all hours as a result but had the olympics on in the background and came rushing in to see Sarah - where as earlier I had only caught the tale end of her performance.

Ok here is another way into the site Jack - and then so many more wonderful links on all these links - it went on and on and on. I even found a site that linked me to walks in Europe and a wonderful site that had unique painted buildings in the South of France. Not Heian period Japan but facinating.

http://music.acu.edu/www/iawm/pages/reference/masters.html

Please folks click on my name in the heading and e-mail to me your e-mail address -

I have sent out some cards and a few have come back saying no such address -

I think it is fun getting a pretty picture post card and that is how I like to let folks know what is going to happen or where we are with the discussion but it won't work without my having your accurate e-mail address.

I cannot believe we start this Monday - it is so cold here today that I've tucked myself in and I'm reading like mad - I ordered and it all arrived yesterday "The World of the Shining Prince" - "A Reader's Guide the Tale of Genji" and "The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter."

"The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter" was written 905 to Genji written about 1010. It has some elements similar to the relationships in Genji with the Heroine, a young woman found as a small "fairy" child in a bamboo stalk. A lovely book with one side written in Japanese and the facing page in English. Included are some wonderful seriographs.

I notice the first bit of the Tyler translation is refering to bits and pieces of Heian culture.

Can we do it - everythink I read says the first 9 chapters, some say the first 11 chapters are about Genji growing up. I've only read one chapter and I find it reads smoothly. Can we read 9 chapters and discuss them this week - let's shoot for it - if we get stuck we'll just take care of what we need to do -

So let's hear from you if you have any ideas that you want to throw in - I only have a very few focus question since we are a small group we may find we will create our own thoughts as we read.

Well we are official folks - WELCOME pull up a cushion and get off that cold floor - Sake may be in order during this cold front - the floor is opened - Let's hear your thoughts.

Still racing toward the end of the first nine chapters.

Chapter 2, with the Chief Equerry's dissertation on the types of women was very interesting in light of what is to come. I thought that I could see the author coming through here and there in some of the twists and comments. Given her background his comments on women who write in Chinese and are educated had to have elicited some shared smirks from her audience.

I am still taken aback when I realize that these people, dressed in their extravagant costumes, slept in clothes and under clothing rather than using blankets. But given the fact that in the court at least they seem to have done as much living during the night hours as during the day, I suppose being always dressed or partially dressed was almost a necessity.

The role that whet nurses play in people's lives seems to parallel the stereotype of the mammy in literature about the American South.

Have been reading a Buddhist book, which discusses the doctrine/concept of Mappo, that the Buddhist way would over time become exhausted and lost to people, and though the Buddha's way would be studied it would not really be understood and the world would wallow in moral darkness waiting for a new Buddha to appear and teach the Dharma again. Just in the first three or four chapters the background mood of sadness and anxiety seem to confirm that in the late Heian period that this idea took a strong hold on people's imaginations.

The Governor of Kii's wife who resists Genji strongly despite her attraction, and Evening Faces who dies because she follows her attraction for him. Are these two foreshadowing the choices of the women who will follow?

Jack

Below is the web site of a very brief quotation from the writings of Genshin who was a Buddhist cleric and famous as a promoter of the Nembutsu devotion to Amida, which was becoming increasing popular in Murasaki's time. The quotation, especially the last paragraph seems very much in tune with the spirit of the novel, or perhaps vice versa.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/pureland-buddhism/amida-net/yokawa-hogo.htm

The following web site gives a very concise definition/description of what "Mappo", the degenerate age is.

http://central.dot.net.au/hbma//primer/mappo.html

Jack

The first chapter I found a bit overwhelming with so many ranks and titles - it was like a large chess game - who can move what way when - interesting I thought the discription of the repair of the house spoke of the size of the lake - I do not know anyone that has visited Japan - I just wonder if these buildings are only seperated from the out of doors by these screens or do the buildings have more protection than that. I find a weather link that said it was 43º in Tokyo yesterday and if they are living in buildings with all these porches for the want of a better discription and only screens seperating the rooms from these covered porches than no wonder they need 20 layers of clothing.

The description of the living quarters say nothing about where the cooking takes place nor the obvious plumbing needs. I wonder about all of that.

The foot note indicates it had been considered bad luck to be stirring during a rainy season when the "guys" have there locker-room chat. Rather amusing - but these women living their lives behind these screens and the more secluded the more desirable - Oh my - no wonder there were early deaths - its a wonder they weren't suicidel with depression. Although even the men do not sound as if they are very physically active nor does it sound like they venture far from the grounds. They evidently do a lot of studying but I get the impression the women also study.

Still finding all kinds of references that now there isn't time to look up and browse the net for further understanding - and haven't gotten into the Buddhist thing Jack - this is a bit slower reading then I expected -

I love the concept of everything said is a reference to a poem or story but, reading the footnotes that is explaining it all does slow down the reading making it bit of a challange to understand what is going on. I feel like I need to sit at a table with pad and pencil as I read this one - none of this casual sitting snug on the sofa with the TV on or a CD playing in the background. Once I'm in the swing of the reading it goes more smoothly.

We are in the gripps of a monster cold front with temperatures breaking all kinds of records - it was 17º here last night which is a record cold and so snuggling under a quilt is how I am staying warm which is making me more conscious of these folks in the story living with what appears no heating divices - brrrr.

Of course it is what women have been complaining about forever and so apparent in this story, when they were having there locker-room chat, it sounded like they were discussing the best vehicle to purchase or the latest stock values rather than women with feelings. Ah so...

Jack its late for me so I will have to check on the links you found tomorrow -

ahmmmm Jack and we are more removed and therefore less sincere in our spiritual values than the time of the Genji??? Obviously the French Revalution was not a speck in the eye of those projecting the future of those practicing Buddhism.

I've a list now of stuff I want to look up and still have not cross referenced the chapters with "The Shining Prince."

I think my shoulders are permenantly stiff - I've been clentching my body without knowing it, imagining I guess it was keeping me from the cold for the past three days. Finally back into the 50s and 60s which is still cold but my word teens and twenties is just not part of how we live here. And so this is still making me curious about this open-air pavillion type of living spoken of and pictured in this book. Maybe this area of Japan contends with more hot weather and this open-air with long sheltered walkways would act as an air tunnel. Haven't found anything that speaks to the history of architectual design in either Japan or China. There was the one comment about a robe being hung to warm it, but no reference to what was warming it. I believe the scene was at night so it couldn't have been the sun warming the robe. Hehehe I'm sure worried about how they stay warm.

I do not know how much of this book is as a result of the translater or our original author but I am finding the story lovely to read with each sentence moving me further into the story. I knew before hand that it was slow in action but now I see that as an opportunity to go deeper. Hehe although, as of now, there doesn't appear to be any deep values here. Certainly none that I can admire to adapt. Everything wrong in the lives of the men seems to be put on the backs of the women - ah so I may be sensitive to this as I am a western women in the 21st century reading this.

Jack I still have to read like crazy to catch up - I got the impression from your post you have already gobbled up most of the book - and so far the others aren't posting - I'm hoping they haven't abandoned the project. I did hear from Launa and she prefers to read it with her local library group. I hope she comes into the site from time to time and give us her impressions. Well onward let us enjoy and get something out of this.

Barabara: I had read "Genji" a long time ago, and have read several of the books about "Genji" and Murasaki.

One of the things that strikes me is that this has to be a world ("world above the clouds", the court) that was even in Murasaki's fictional time and version not really involved with the actual government of the country. The men - with all their grand titles - don't really seem to have specific duties attached to those titles, other than to attend the emperor and participate in court ceremonial. Surely with her own father having been a provincial governer, and having accompanied him to his post the author would have been more aware than she seems to be of "men's work," assuming there was any at court. From her virtual silence on this I am guessing that men had an enormous amount of free time to devote to the arts of the day.

I think this might become rapidly tedious, even with all the attempted seductions, if it weren't for what seem like some of the deft touches that the author seems to be able to make that rescues her narrative from being bedroom farce and melodrama.

I'm thinking of the relationship as it develops between Genji and the child Murasaki - it's very sweet, but of course it's heading in a direction quite contrary what is being established, the mixed emotions of the lady-in-waiting who is the go-between with Genji and the Safflower Princess. (I also couldn't help think how at the end of that chapter as he teased Murasaki by painting his own nose red like the pathetic Safflower Princess's - how out-of-character this clownlike gesture was, and while there was something affecting about it, at the same time I felt it reflected the foolishness of much of his life.) I also enjoyed the affair with the older lady-in-waiting - though she was a figure of fun for him, I quite liked the fact that she had no intention as seeing herself left out of the secret world of amorous games at court, and he seemed quite bowled over by that.

But playing behind all these escapades is the figure of the Kokiden Lady, the Emperor's wife, who is clearly a no-nonsense woman, and his wife Aoi, who, whatever her flaws may be, is too important a personage (as is her father) to remain in the background forever.

And I wonder how much the notion of living in the Age of the Degenerate Dharma/Mappo wasn't a convenient excuse for very self-indulgent conduct. And I wonder at the emotions - at least those of the men - they seem derived from their endless dilettantism sometimes, affectations rather than emotions. What does it mean when every situation seems to cause people to exclaim that their sleeves are wet with tears. Anything?

Much of this seems like a world of gifted children playing an elaborate game of "dress up." However, for the women especially the consequences could obviously be quite awful. Yugao was at the end of the line in her circumstances, but on the other hand,the Fujitsubo Lady in the midst of luxury and maximum favor has to live with the knowledge that her child is a "love child" and not the son of her imperial husband.

Jack

"endless dilettantism sometimes, affectations rather than emotions." reminds me of Proust - I only read Swann's Way and it drove me up the wall - somehow ancient Japanese men being idle and childlike seems such a fantasy fairly tale that I feel like I'm reading a Japanese version of 'Puss in Boots' or 'Cinderella' where as, Swann with his, using your word, dilettantism just pushed my buttons. Oh and slloooooww.

"their sleeves are wet with tears." has something to do with dew - maybe a poem?? - the Tyler footnote says that

"Ladies moistened a bit of chrysanthemum-patterned brocade with dew from from chrysanthemum flowers, rubbing their cheeks with it to smooth the wrinkles of age (since chrysanthemum dew conferred immortal youth) and composed poems lamenting the sorrows of growing old."

Well I'm still caught up in how they kept warm other than all those clothes - one site said that the weight of them is suspect to why they did everything on their knees. There was just this one line that I thought was a que but alas - a censer from "a thick comfortable robe was warming over a large censer frame" is an incense burner

Then I thought maybe if I could find out more about the Heian architecture some creature comforts would show up - not really - still do not know where they cooked etc. but found this information.

Kyôto in the Early Medieval Period: includes street map showing Second Avenue and the Imperial palace Compound and a link is included to the "Town Palaces." A graphic of a reconstruction of a traditional shindenzukuri design: a cluster of annexes around a central Shinden Hall, with a broad courtyard bordered by covered walkways and a large pond on the south.

Of course start looking up one thing and then the flood gates opened - The poetry has been amazing to read and learn that nearly everything said was using the phrases of a poet to convey their thought - and so that was my next curiosity.

Ki no Tsurayuki - - - The Kokinwakashû - - - Tsurayuki, one of the most famous of the Hyaku-nin Isshu poets - - - Hyaku-nin Isshu' woodblocks of 100 poets and their poems from oldest (7th century) to 'newest' (13th century). includes Murasaki Shikibu

And than the Festivals named

The chrysanthemum is associated in legend with long life. * Chrysanthemum Rituals...A statue of a child is on display during the festival. The child is said to have lived for 700 years after drinking dew from chrysanthemums. Worshippers pray for long life.

Scroll down on this site and click on the link under Choyo no Sechie (Chrysanthemum Festival)

Scroll down a bit to chrysanthemum festival for two days from October 14th to 15th every year at Daienji Temple

Of course than had to find out about the Sweet Flag festival

On Children's Day, people customarily take a bath with the leaves and roots of the shobu (ÉVÉáÉEÉu(Sweet-flag)) plant in the water. Shobu has fragrant leaves and is believed wash away evil.

...cut sweet flag was put into the wine. This is called "drinking sweet flag." Sweet flag, also a commonly used medicine in Daoist food, is thought to be able to protect against poisonous insects and dispel the Three Worms. So, drinking sweet flag also shows the influence of Daoism on Duanwu customs.

I did get into your last two sites and this issue of Mappo challenged my imagination - only I kept thinking it was the Heian Buddhist version of the Hell and Damnation summmer tent meetings that came to town in my youth. We kids used to wait, sitting just behind the tent edge till everyone was Amening and then we would sneak in under the tent. This is a good site to browse - the other pages have good graphics of Pure Land Buddhist artwork - the page on death is interesting Mappo, a decadent age in which the laws of Buddhism would cease to bring enlightenment, was believed to have begun in the year 1052.

We really do not need yet another Genji site summerizing the chapters but this site has especially great graphics for each chapter.

I haven't looked back to see what various experts have said about which chapters might have been composed when; howver, it strikes me that in this chapter the previous dalliances and scattered threads are pulled together, and given a tug in another direction.

For me there are several ironies in this chapter that set it apart in tone and seriousness.

1. After Aoi's death when her father (Genji's ever-encouraging, gently pushing father-in-law during the loveless marriage) goes to look at Genji's now empty room in his house, he remarks that it is like an empty cicada shell. This is the same imagry that gave it's name to the chapter in which Genji pursued the Governor's wife who spurned him, leaving only her abandoned gown behind at one point. Just as she would not let Genji have her, Genji has never really been a son in his father-in-law's family. For me as a modern reader what I see having been left behind is the reminder of an essentially failed relationship in both cases. Once the glamour of the surrounding circumstances is gone, what is left is the absence of anything substantial having taken place in either case. (One might argue that the newborn child is something substantial, but he seems already to have disappeared into the recesses of the maternal home and out of sight.

2. It is Lady Rokujo's spirit of anger and jealousy that has been set loose and kill's Aoi (the bedside scene is great) who is the apple of her family's eye, being their only daughter; but also her knowledge of what has happened is so debilitating to Rokujo that her resulting almost-illness threatens the ritual purity of her own daughter, the Ise Priestess, which would upset that important applecart terribly considering all of the elaborate and very lengthy ritual that are involved in elevating the daughter to that exalted position. Quite a light cast on the power of a stifled emotion cut free to wreak random havoc.

3. Genji's treatment of his wife, Aoi, caused her to withhold warmth and companionship, yet he continued to womanize and blame her for being cold. But when he rushed the girl Murasaki into marriage, with virtually no warning it seemed, she retaliates by refusing to speak with him and withholding all of those qualities which he found so endearing and enticing in a woman, and so in contrast to Aoi. An interesting comeuppance. For the moment he is unexpectly back to square one in the marriage game.

Jack

Genji's quick suggestion that he is thinking of retiring from the world after Aoi's death struck me as another one of those "for effect" statements which seem to be invoked at every turn.

Jack I need to catch up - finished chapter 7 and now I need to hustle - I was annoied and put off after chapter 3 thinking this was like a story equivilant to some college or high school kid in today's society. But then chapter four I could have read over and over - the choice of words were so beautiful throughout the chapter as well as the two line poems. Never mind the plot just the words chosen were so beautiful. The chapter changed the tone and now I am anxious to read what the Genji's next adventure will be - I see him as a Japanese Don Giovanni with the young brother like Leporello.

Jack on this one you have more to offer since, you have not only read the book but, have had a chance to research - Have you looked into all these many references to Buddhism? I need to stop looking it all up if I am ever going to finish the story.

So Jack please don't wait on me to share what ever are your thoughts or findings - I'm thinking with just the two of us let's just read and go forward with the idea of completing our discussion by month's end.

Let's throw formailty out the window - I have put up just a few questions as a way to relate to the story along the lines of critical thinking rather than just examining it for the typical plot, theme, character, place etc.

I understand there is a whole study on the shadow/ghost world presented but I am not looking into it in depth - it all seems fanciful and yet so many ancient stories that have been passed down seem to have this fanciful nature that goes with Shamanism - I'm now thinking the Shinto religion may have been closer to Shamanism and if the women are closer to the Japanese languge they are probably closer to Shintoism then the men who are so wedded to China. And so ghosts do not seem so far fetched. Again, to me, it all gives this story a fairy tale aura.

I am a bit puzzled now by the commentaries I've read. I find that the bulk of the first eight chapters really demonstrate a remarkable contrast between Genji's love affairs/escapades that we see up close and the more general and far less detailed descriptions of his wonderful accomplishments and his great success with women. Perhaps a Heian woman's idea (specifically Lady Murasaki's) is just too far removed from mine - or have people not given her enough credit for a ripping sense of irony.

Despite the "great lover" and "supremely accomplished gentleman" that we are told he his, what we see is this: Utsusemi doesn't want him and refuses to see him; Yugao willing colludes and dies because of it; Murasaki is furious when he finally makes his "dream" girl his wife - she stops speaking to him; his wife, Aoi, never thaws toward him; Suetsumuhana - after all Genji's pursuit - turns out to be homely and awkward, and he looks a fool. His successes are with the considerably older court woman, another laughing stock affair, one briefly detailed affair with the woman who played go, and then his incredibly ill-considered - if not patently stupid affair with Oborozukiyo, who is being groomed for the heir-apparent.

This to me is not a catalog of successes, however entertaining it may be. Can it be that these chapters were read to a groups of women and they all sat there with straight faces, none of them thinking that for a paragon of all virtues he was a bit of a butterfingers? Some affairs clearly are intended for humor, but even the "serious" ones seem adolescent in their conduct. I can accept that Genji may look like Johnny Depp, but he comes across more like an episode of Seinfeld (which I loathed.)

And in Chap. 10 he gets caught - quite literally - with his pants down by the father of the woman promised to the heir apparent. I have to think that Murasaka - at least in the back of her mind - was taking a pretty jaundiced look at some of these glamorous bedroom escapades. Surely the very in-the-know ladies of the imperial household must have shared more than a few winks and smirks during the readings. And I have to wonder - in vain, I'm sure - if Lady Murasaki dared to make any of her characters comparable to contemporary people, or would that have been too risky?

Barbara, re the Buddhism. Some of the references, at least in general, are probably not as daunting to me. I had taken an excellent course in college on Eastern religions, and despite that being "many years ago" shall we say, much of the knowledge stuck, and I did read on the subject from time to time in the years that followed. A couple of decades ago I became a Buddhist, attended retreats and services and, of course, at least initially read a lot of material on the Buddhist traditions.

I'm repeating myself here in part: What I see most of the time is religion/religious services being used in times of crisis with no indication that the people involved are necessarily very involved in those services. In this I see the Roman Catholicism of my childhood, and of the past where ceremony itself provided the comfort that we expect to come from personal belief - which is not to say personal belief is lacking. But it is an approach to religion that modern day people denigrate. Also, religious ceremonies as in the past in the Christian West often provided dramatic civil spectacles, as we see from time to time in Genji.

What I had not realized was the degree to which in this period the belief in the age of Mappo, the era of Degenerate Dharma, had taken hold. I had thought this occured a century or two later. The two strongest traditions being practiced here are the Shingon and the Tendai, both very esoteric and very, very given to elaborate ceremony. The poor layperson looking achieve release under these traditions faced a hard task - they were just so damned esoteric in their development! Evidently a shift had already occured from what is called Jiriki (enlightment through using one's own powers and abilities - salvation by works) to Tariki (enlightenment achieved through the shared grace of someone/Buddha - salvation by faith.) (A distinction that does not exist in the Theravadin Buddhist tradition of SE Asia, where only the first is recognized.)

The "cult" of Amida Buddha, who promised salvation into his Sukhavati Pure Land/the Western Pure Land paradise where a person would then achieve release under ideal conditions, was a somewhat minor (and a bit contradictory) part of Tendai and Shingon. A monk named Genshin, however, by the time Murasaki was living and writing, had already written a treatise and was promoting devotion to Amida as an entirely separate practice on its own. A cult of salvation by faith alone, for those unfortunate enough to be born in the age of Mappo.

A very brief quotation from Genshin's Ojoyoshu promoting Pure Land devotion is at this site: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/pureland-buddhism/amida-net/yokawa-hogo.htm

In this site the Original Vow refers to the vows made by Amida when he was striving for englightment, one of which was that he would not allow himself to fully achieve enlightment until he had been able through his attempts/works to guarantee salvation to all unlightened beings! The menbutsu is the chant: Namu Amida Butsu/Hommage to Amida Buddha.

The quotation certainly gives the flavor of Mappo and the Amida devotion.

Jack

Interesting Jack I also was brought up Roman Catholic having attended both Catholic Elementary and High School -

My childhood experience was really not a big problem as many have experienced - the early years were with the Benedictines and the High School Years were with the Carmelites. Both as you know are old old orders that were removed from the local Bishop with the head of the order being their superiors - had some Dominican Nuns in my early years and some Mercy nuns in High school.

The big let down for me came when I no longer was attached to these school/church environments - we moved and then I married early - from then on it was a fight in my head because the homilies from the diocesan parish priests were as if I had been trained in another religion. They suggested no inquiry and expected a sort of blind obedience - I languished for years with my guilt but was so angry, feeling betrayed I refused to attend Mass - The upshot is where you became a Buddhist I turned to Daoism - Both the orders are contemplative orders and the eastern philosophy is steeped in contemplation and meditation practices.

I still turn to St. John of the Cross in a crisis - I remember being blown away when his work was first translated in about 1950 and I was allowed to take this book home that had been locked behind the Library glass case since it was considered so special - remember this was a Carmelite school. The other thing I miss is the Mass - especially High Mass - to me my religion was all about adoration rather than a canon of do’s and don’ts.

Have you been following the current rocking to the core of the Catholic Church here in the States? Again, no one seems to get it right - they are pointing to the rule of no marriage as the cause11??11 - shesh.

One of the web sites or support books is saying the purification etc. after death is from the Shinto tradition. This whole book so far, seems to be about traditional customs and ceremony -

I’ve been taking the focus of Genji’s actions away from his pursuit of women and looking at his behavior as if he was going after some other prize like an important government position or learning the skills he needs to become a CEO - as if this is his college education to his future and he needs to try out what will or won’t work in this society and how that squares with his “wants” - Amazing though, so much of that conversation among the “boys” in chapter two seems to be his bible of what he wants and how to get it. I don’t want to take the time now to review but if the conversation could be reworked in my head as if they were talking about a favorable company to get ahead and then look at all this in that light.

I have come to the conclusion that women are his only outlet but also the book reads a lot like the fantasy dreams of a young adolescent girl - The kind of sex dreams most girls giggle and talk about when they are - Hmmm I was going to say 14 but in today’s world it may be more like 11 or 12.

The other thought I had is that all these escapades simply give the characters an opportunity to have all this word play and come up with all these poems that would not be appropriate in a board room or attempting any more serious endeavor.

I am wondering now if they cry all through this book - If they don’t watch out all their buckets of tears could dry them out into prunes.

OK Jack I think I've a clue for us as to what this is all about - during my early research I had found some site, that I no longer can find, suggesting it important to understand the Henry James essay on Romanticism - well today, while sharing with some friends this read, her son was there and said in College he read the book as a comparison to The American - well I found the essay - it is about understanding The American but the principles spoken could easily be related to The Tale of the Genji

Here is the link - the American in Newman is out of sink because of money that is described as he seeing the world as a Bazar and has no clue to European "Breeding" which has little to do with money. I think our Genji is about sex rather than money which may have little to do with the customs, culture or "Breeding" of Hiean Japan.

See what you make of this - also I am putting here a few phrases I found informative to this comparison. Romance as Irony

The heavily romantic atmosphere which imbues so much of this novel, then, is nothing more than an ironic feint in the direction of true romance, calculated to emphasize by means of implicit invocation our remoteness from that ideal world in which all differences can be resolved and true love allowed to triumph. (I'm wondering if we as readers are romanticising this story, especially since the place and customs seem so exotic and we have an idea of how we think sex matters aught to happen - we expect to see evidence of love and these poems seem like the perfect vehicle for lovely little love poems)

...this comic pattern can be traced in its purest form in romance, which Frye defines as "the mythos of literature concerned primarily with an idealized world"

... the comic structure "normally begins with an anticomic society, a social organization blocking and opposed to the comic drive, which the action of the comedy evades or overcomes. It often takes the form of a harsh or irrational law"

The comedy ends at a point when a new society is crystallized, usually by the marriage or betrothal of hero and heroine. The birth of the new society is symbolized by a closing festive scene featuring a wedding, a banquet, or a dance. This conclusion is normally accompanied by some change of heart on the part of those who have been obstructing the comic resolution.

I hadn't recalled from my previous reading that Genji protested his innocence so frequently and, I think, so disengenuously. This occurs in the chapter before he goes to Suma and while he is in exile. He is constantly protesting how unfair his exile is and has this what-did-I-do-to-deserve-this pose. At one point he says: "...nothing I have done anyone could call a crime." And right after, or perhaps near the end of, the great storm even his retainers in their prayers declare his his innocence.

He himself had noted how dangerous, even in a promiscuous environment like the court, his affair with a woman being groomed for the emperor was. This was referred to by several characters; thus, the protests that follow his humiliation and banishment are puzzling.

I keep wondering if at some point he will own up to his wrongdoing and if this will mark a turning in the book. Before he left the Cloistered Empress by whom he has had the illegitimate Heir Apparent remarks in a poem: "..but know your real enemy is your heart, and yours alone." Still, even after returning to the city he doesn't seem to have gotten that message. Although he did reflect in exile once on what happens to exiles, to the effect that they never manage to rejoin the world. So, perhaps he will never quite suceed in picking up his old attitudes again.

There are several mentions in the exile portion - in regard to the sea and its wildness, etc. - that Genji says the Dragon King may want him for his daughter.

In the Lotus Sutra, which was one of the principal sutras of this era, the Dragon King's Daughter is one of the women who are demonstrated to have achieved enlightenment, contrary to what had been the prevailing thought of the Mahayana past which was that women could not do this. In the sutra her enlightement is mentioned, greeted with disbelief and then she appears and proves it.

I haven't read any comments so far that remark upon Genji's thoughts about the Dragon King's Daughter and what was written about her in the scriptures.

Strikes me as strange.

Jack

For awhile I wasn't sure either why he was banished - I reread and think it was because of; "The Empress Mother's countenance nevertheless failed to lighten. She could not have Genji pointedly mocking and belittling her by brazenly invading her house while she herself was at home, so nearby, and this gave her a fine reason to set in train the measures to accomplish his downfall." the last sentence in 'The Green Branch."

In the chapter she complanes that no one is giving her son, the Emperor the respect he should have. And so she developes some political moves and the upshot is Genji is banished - I don't think just because he was caught with the Mistress of Staff.

Jack I'm on chapter 17 and it looks like he returns to the city after he sires a daughter and he gathers all the women he had spent time with into a wing on his house that he is building. I am getting the picture here that, if you are a man and not favorably placed you need to creat alliances and Genji does this, maybe not by a plan but, does it, by creating alliances through women. I am still not sure of the point to all this - I am trying to read this without any moral judgement and just try to figure out what is going on - much like trying to look at a chess game to see waht moves had to be in order to achieve ... and that is the question achieve What? To what end? Where is this going - what is the point of all this? Or is this simply showing a pattern of life for a Genji at this time in history. If so what is the point?

The poetry is wonderful and I would just love to write out a notebook with just the poetry.

From the above character list;

Oborozukiyo (oh-boh-roh-zoo-kee-yoh) A younger sister of Kokiden, she seems to be a concubine of her nephew, the Susaku Emperor, but has an affair with Genji, which earns him exile.

I still think it is Kokiden tossing her power around and her hatred for Genji that goes back to her hatred for his mother that prompts her getting Genji banished to the sea.

Well finally I think I found the theme of this book - in the chapter called "The Bluebell" on page 369

"the lock is all rusted," he grumbled, rattling away at it, "That's why it won't open." Genji felt sorry for him. It feels like yesterday, he thought, and it was thirty or more years ago. Ah, Life! And still I cling to this passing lodging and give my heart to the beauty of plants and trees.

Along with the footnotes that say:

"this passing lodging" is the spirit's temporary fleshly abode in this life, but it is unclear what "thirty of more years ago" refers to. Perhaps the original expression was proverbail for the swiftness with which a death receds into the past ("His Highness died this summer, and already his gate is rusted shut.")

Taking this as an allegory to the entire story simply being about life passing by and all the small details that make up a lifetime, almost like a diary of life that is within a sheltered compound with a rusty lock. In other words this story is filled with a specific culture much like the Europeans in Hanry James' "The American."

I do not see that the Genji is bringing a clash of culture though as the American did in the Henry James novel but rather, he admits that he doesn't need to develope anymore alliences. It sounds like all the women, even the old women, only see friendship with a man as one fruaght with sex and through a sexual conection the allience for their lifelong economic security is made. I am not sure how these alliences with women help Genji or if he simply persues women as someone persues money in today's society.

He had a great sentence I thought about the value of a fine education - cannot locate the sentence now but during the poetry art contest.

The structure of the homes is almost like living in a tent with a wooden frame. Their connection to the out-of-doors is so complete regardless of weather and so - giving your heart to the beauty of plants and trees and expressing it in poetry wraps this culture in daily beauty and provides them with daily amusement that I envy as compared to how I spend my free time or fleeting moments between activities which is often in front of the TV or behind a book or hearing music on the radio. As much as being that connected to nature sounds wonderful I still would prefer not to be cold and I cannot imagine they didn't feel the cold through their shutters and rice paper covered doors and walls.

And so I am simply seeing this as a Saga of a family that daily celebrate the culture of the times - a sort of Upstairs-Downstairs of eleventh century Japan.

Reviewing some of the links again - some of them have new meaning now that I've read so much of the book - the one about Literary Salons had a link to the Aesthetics of Impermenance and I just love this quoted from that site -

"The notion that all things are ephemeral, that things must change. On the one hand the aesthetics of the period are based on the beauty of impermanence--the scattering of the cherry blossoms, the dew disappearing before the sun rises. Even though it reminds us of the futility of the world, it's precisely that. It's the sorrow in the impermanence that brings us aesthetic pleasure.

I wonder if that sorrow is part of all the easy tears spoken about in nearly every chapter.

I'm sorta on the fly now as today is a holiday here - Green Day, which has nothing to do with the environment, but rather is the first day of Orthodox Lent when one begins to "eat green" rather than flesh. And my Greek teacher is having a greens & fish gathering at her house.

Assuming that this work was done over a period of time, part of what's occuring may be a map of the changes in Murasaki (the author) life.

The basic tenets of Buddhism are Dukkha, Anatta, Anicca. Essentially that life is usually essentially unsatisfying; that all things (physical and psychological) are made up of components, things have no actual "self" apart from their being part of an aggregate; all aggregates are impermanent. The purpose of the Buddhadharma is to explain the nature of things and to point the way to living a life that accomodates how things really are and not how we would have them be. Thus, a lot of Buddhism is about giving up very precious ideas of "this is mine." And of course such teachings run right in the face of our fondest inclinations, which are to acquire, hoard and avoid any acknowledgment of impermance.

Combine this with the Mahayana doctrine of Mappo, the era in which the dharma-teaching was so debased that it would be difficult to achieve understanding and release, and I think that - if taken seriously - one either believes and lives accordingly, or one may wander in a kind of negative fog - realizing the truth, but feeling incapable of accepting it.

And as you point out, this had even been cultivated into an aesthetic approach. If I recall correctly, wabi is the word that describes this feeling and view of the world.

Jack

As usual this occurred in the middle of the night.......but I had some ideas about why Genji's moaning during his exile about the unfairness of it all so conveniently ignored the flagrant incident that caused his downfall.

After Emperor finally takes the Mistress of Wardrobe back into the palace and into his good graces, and there was a scene - when I looked back - in which she (contrary to Genji) reflected with no problem on how her reckless affair had led to her banishment from court and Genji's problems.

I think Genji's problem may be a "guy thing" of the time. But right now I have to get ready for my Green Day outing.

Jack

Jack your thoughts on "why Genji's moaning during his exile about the unfairness of it all so conveniently ignored the flagrant incident that caused his downfall." - I just skimmed right by that and took it as a given - I guess a long time ago I got the message and learned it - that when folks are punished or if you tell them off for their misdeeds they are not ever properly devistated - and - if they are - it is only to make you feel quilty.

Through out Genji seems to say in small remarks that he knows his behavior is beyond the acceptable but he continues - a knee jerk reaction to nearly any women that strickes his fancy - to him he does not believe he has any control or, for that matter should have control, over this knee jerk reaction and would prefer that society accept him warts and all. If he sinks into tearful dispair when the priestess Ise doesn't fall for his advances then it is no wonder he moans and groans when he was banished and thinks of his banishment as the most unfair experience inflicted on him.

He sounds like he is maturing rapidly if his age noted in the beginning of each chapter is accurate. Compared to today they seem to age at the rate of 1 for 2 - one year equals two of ours - so that at 25 he sounds like a man of 50 or at least late 40s.

Thanks for sharing about the Green Day - never heard that before - interesting - is it 40 days of meatless and only green food or is it just the first day that is green food?

I went back and looked at the picture contest chapter, and found these remarks, which Genji attributes to "His late Eminence (his father)"

'What is recognized as learning commands weighty respect, and I expect that that is why those who pursue it to excess so rarely enjoy both good fortune and long life. One born to high station, or at least to an honorable position among his peers, ought not to carry it too far.'

Wonder if Murasaki might have had her father in mind at least a little bit.

Jack

I forgot to mention that I came across a passage where Genji was talking to his wife Murasaki, and she brought up the subject of the dalliance he had with the Emperor's Wardrobe Mistress that led to his banishment. I thought it was funny that her introduction was to comment that the woman in question usually showed more sense and discretion...Genji then allowed as how he had much to be ashamed of in this, etc.........though he then defensively remarked that real rakes must really deserve punishment!

As when I read the book before I find Murasaki a very likable woman, and her dialogue has more personality to it than his, even though she is far less prominent.

Jack

Oh Jack rake or not I've grown weary of his dalliances - and now the son is picking up where he left off - there is much beauty in this book but Genji as a character is boring in his obsession with women or is it that he is addicted to the chase - other men hunt or fish and he hunts women and fishes for words.

Looking at him as a character that is part of the literary understanding of what the author is trying to say isn's even coming through to me - this almost reminds me of a poetic version of a Hollywood gossip column. The Genji sure seems to know how to give a great party which fits his proclivity to all things social. I'm slugging onward - and the effort is great enough that I'm probably missing the flowers much less stopping to smell them.

Thanks for hanging in there - Jack which version had you read earlier - and how were you introduced to this book?

I don't remember having such a negative feeling about Genji last time around, however, I think I'm still swallowing a lot of it with a that's-the-way they-were attitude. I find the women far more interesting, and I think that despite the fact that Genji is set in an era before the one in which the author lived that it still reflects a royal court more like that of her time: a place where many of the various duties were ceremonial and the government of the country had passed on to others. It was not long after Murasaki's time that the court aristocracy was eclipsed and faded into history. They became a tiny relic reduced to living in the isolation that the Imperial family did for centuries. I believe that Japan's hereditary aristocracy is descended from minor provincial aristocrats and not the court aristocracy that we are reading about.

Commentators repeatedly stress the incredible aesthetic bent of this culture and it's isolation from the rest of society, and I guess that is something to bear in mind. In some respects it is an artificial world - maybe "epicene" is a word for it. Several references are made to the aristocrats having difficulty understanding the common people as they talk, and I have heard that in the 20th century that the language used in the Imperial household and by those associated with its affairs was incomprehensible to the man-in-the-street.

It is not too long after Murasaki's lifetime that this whole world was reduced to a tiny cloistered enclave living isolated in Kyoto. The provincial aristocracy and feudalism arose and great religious upheavals occurred. Zen developed and played a big part in the lives of the feudal aristocracy, but devotion to Amida swept through the common people causing something like the turmoil that marked the Protestant reformation in Europe.

I am at the point where the story of the second generation seems to have a different tone, a more weary air - I assume that as Murasaki aged she was less able to maintain her own interest in the Genji character and affairs. I've read snatches from her diary and it seemed that she herself was getting weary of some of the tone of court life - though again perhaps she wrote the expected "canned" remarks in her diary.

I first read Waley's version. I really don't remember how or when I first came across "Genji." In college I took an excellent course in Far Eastern religions, which introduced me to Buddhism but I'm positive that Genji wasn't even mentioned given the strictly theological skew of the course. My advisor was the head of the anthropology dept., and he was a famous expert on Japan and had lived there for several years. However, I only took one survey course on Japan. As I had two majors in college I took only the required Freshman English course and that was it for literature. Therefore, after college I embarked on years of catch-up reading. I worked just off Times Square in its seamiest days and in a used book/porno shop found a copy of Yasunari Kawabata's "Snow Country," and was so blown away by it that for years I read every piece of Japanese fiction that was translated - and it was in that period that I first read Gengi, about 64/65, I'd say. Given Kawabata's intense interest in the cultural past of his country, I wouldn't be surprised if that's were I ran into any extended references/comments on Genji.

Jack

Aha - with your love affair with Japanese lit have you ever had the good fortune to visit Japan - although like many things in life if this was not a reality for you it could be that the reality would never measure your mental pictures that must be dear friends by now.

In all this I did purchase The Tale of the Bamboo Cutter A lovey soft back edition with more Japanese then English and some lovely woodcuts used as graphics.

And yes this Tale of Genji is like a jewel of time and place within a box of costume jewelry. There is so much to question and learn that I find the reading slow going - there are some that ignore all that and just read the tale but I don't seem to be able to read that way.

Debated getting a paperback copy of her diary and chose to get the Shining Prince instead. Wish they had a copy of the diary in the bookstores or library - I am usually a quick read and a couple of hours with some coffee in Borders Book stores and I can read a little over a 200 page book - some books I just do not want as keepers and so I crash on the sofas in Borders.

Not having the background in Japanese lit is not helping matters - I find that anything I read I need to know the folk tales and myths of the culture in order to really understand what the author is saying, and so that has been the fun part of all this - I've been burning up Google and Dogpile finding the myths, legends and folk tales of Japan - soooooo much to read and none of the tales have any similarities to western myths and legends.

Jack did you move to Europe after you retired? What was the call - although from what you have said it is not an economic move but I wonder what approximatly could the average annual expenses be to do what you are doing. You've got my wanderlust button alerted.

I think as the story moves on that Murasaki, the author, shows some really deft touches.

Certainly in cruder terms these chapters could have been called "The Chickens Come Home to Roost," however the gentle irony of "new shoots" is much more effective. Here we have Lady Rokujo back on the scene again, even though dead, vengeful as she was with Aoi, only this time with Genji's wife, Murasaki. And as Genji struggles to bring back Murasaki's health his new wife, an imperial princess, Nyosan, cuckholds him just as he did with his father's with Fujitsubo.

And even his Akashi daughter who has married into the imperial family gets brought down a peg with the discovery that she has rustic origins.

I liked the cat who appeared and prompted Kashiwagi's glimpse of Genji's new wife, and then the cat he dreams of after he has seduced her and made her pregnant.

(I have a 19th century Japanese print of a geisha with a cat tucked down into her breasts with its paws at her kimono opening and his rather large face showing what can only be discribed as a grin, while the geisha is displaying a naked foot and part of a bare leg through opening of her elaborate skirts. It was considered quite suggestive in its day.)

These two chapters remind of the quotation in the Christian New Testament to the effect "...he has lowered the mighty and exalted them of low degree." Many currents of that in these chapters.

Jack

I have a large and beautiful abstract painting done many years ago by an artist in New York, and it is entitled "Bridge of Dreams." Today my possessions arrived by boat from Portugal - boxes of books and CD's, a few small statues, some prints and this painting. Coincidentally I had finished reading Genji last night.

I have enjoyed reading it again very much and I expect this will be the last time. I was much less patient with Genji than I remember being in the past, though I think this time around I was also much more aware of how much the story changes in tone as it moves along. I would think that it was either composed by a very mature person with a lifetime of experience, or by someone over a number of years. The trip from an erotic picaresque tale to the story of a man - and women - of riches and power to the final turn into a world of disappointment and melancholy is quite an accomplishment.

One of the first popular propagators of the Pure Land sect was the priest Genshin, who lived in Murasaki's time, and preached the current age as the era of Mappo/Age of Degenerate Dharma and the hopelessness of salvation through anything but faith in such a morally dark time. A modern commentator I read points out that the priest who saves Ukifune closely parallels in all his fictional biographical details the priest Genshin (age, location, title, etc), even down to having a sister who was a nun. This character appearing so close to the end of the novel and playing such a decisive part - with his very strong resemblance to Genshin of Murasaki's day - makes me think that this is a reflection of the author's "judgement" on her own story, and reflects her own personal views as well perhaps, since she too wished to retreat from public life to a life of religious vows. I wonder if her years at court didn't ultimately wear a bit thin, and the changes in Genji reflect this.

Jack

Well who would have guessed - because of other reading and resulting research found these two links all about the "Bridge of Dreams"

Chinese star festival celebrates two lovers kept apart by the celestial river, The Milky Way. The lovers are represented by the stars Vega and Altair.

The Girl Weaver and A Peasant one of the famous Chinese legend... One day, the seven daughters of the Taoist God felt that is bore to stay in the heaven. Therefore, they decided to go down to the heaven for a walk. That was a humid day. When the seven ladies got down to the earth, the first thing they saw was a beautiful pond with clear and cool water, with colorful flowers, singing birds, green and lively grass around.

Thanks for your participation Jack - we attempted a first here on seniornet by carrying on a discussion with only two participants. Thanks for being such a good sport even if we at times were like ships passing in the night.

I found this to be a slow read that after awhile I wanted to slow down and enjoy it as a long walk through an unknown wood. The biggest lesson from this book for me is how we can live life more artfully - the various gatherings centered on composing and reading poetry, dance, music, each playing an instrument and the continuous enjoyment of gardens allowed me to see the value of slowing down and bringing beauty to life.

The story had other messages but for me and its affect on my life, the recognition of living an artful life is most meaningful. I remember when we used to send off notes after every small social experience - the Genji may have had poems delivered for a different reason but the concept of taking time to compose a lovely thought after a chance meeting or other event would be a lovely habit to resurrect.

Again thanks - I couldn't keep up but with your participation you offered bits and pieces that were a great introduction to 11th century Japan. I would never have looked for a copy of the "Shining Prince" had you not suggested the book.

Let's see it is 5:30 Sunday evening here in Austin - that makes it what 9 - 10 or maybe even 11 hours difference in Cyprus - I know it is 6 hour difference to London and 7 to Paris -

Vega and Altair, they are the Weaver and...what? The Hunter. Their "holiday" is celebrated over a wide part of the Far East. I can't remember if in the West there are legends surrounding this astronomical event.

I have enjoyed rereading "Genji." This is my third time, maybe fourth, and I wanted to give it one last go, but had procrastinated; thus, I'm glad that we had this discussion. I found that I liked the Tyler translation the best of all, and he does a great job with the poems, as well as keeping the notes helpful, but not too intrusive.

I wish we knew over what parts of her life Murasaki Shikibu wrote this story as I would shed light, perhaps, on the changes in tone in the novel. However, I suppose it is unlikely that any records will turn up at this point. I still find it quite incredible that she could write extended themes that focused on the infidelity of Imperial spouses and illegitimate sons occupying the throne. I would have thought that this would have been entirely too daring for a book that was being read in the Imperial court.

Thank you, Barbara. You did an enormous amount of work researching the background links, and I'm sorry that that the other participants did not come through.

Jack