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Hi Jane, this is the first time that I can remember being the first to subscribe! Woo Hoo! Sue

BaBi, Caroline's Muse:

Badly treated, wrongly accused, unhappy in life, unhappy in death, 1700's shipmaster's wife, Mariah Stubbs, can't rest until 20th century writer, Caroline Fitch, writes her story. The locale is the New England coast just south of Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and yes, there's a house with a widows walk.

Mal

Don't know how many remember Sage - at one time she was a regular and of late she used to post in Curious Minds - I received this email today...

This note is being sent to everyone in Sage's contact list.

With deepest regrets we have to let you know that our mother, Sage McKenzie, passed away Friday, July 7th, 2006. A memorial service will be held Monday, July 10th, 2006 at 10 AM, at St. Mary's Episcopal Church 4th & Chestnut, in Lampasas, Texas.

Your thoughts & prayers for the family are truly appreciated.

In lieu of flowers, memorial contributions can be made to the charity of your choice.

Sincerely,

Tommy, Mark & Leah Haralson
Children of Sage

I believe there are others from Seniornet who Knew Sage and will be sharing in those discussions they shared with her - Sage and I had planned to go again to Crawford in August - I will go and think of her all the way - Sage was an interesting lady - she did lots of knitting and created several web sites for various organizations and to me, her call to fame was she went to school with Bill Clements two times Governor of Texas but she could not vote for him.

Lampasas is only about an hour and half from Austin so unless something comes up I will go on up for her service.

I remember Sage, we exchanged several books and emails. An interesting thoughtful lady.

I am very sorry to hear the news. My thoughts go out to the family.

Thank you Barbara, I am sorry to hear that. I had occasion to talk to Sage a few times and thought she was wonderful, so sorry to hear she has passed away.

SeniorNet has a new Memorial to SeniorNet Members discussion where it might be good for those of you who remember Sage to post so her family can see it and not have to look within the particular discussions. I think the tribute to her by her friend that Marcie linked to was really stunning.

Phooey, Stephanie, I hate to admit you were right, but now in the Book of the Dead Preston and Childs have once again gone into the most improbable horror and gore again, phooey. I'm going to finish it but phooey!

I picked back up the Seven Sisters by Margaret Drabble. I just came from Cumae and a sort of self conducted Vergil tour and so I was curious to read again this book, having seen the actual sites. I know we read it here and we discussed it and I hated it, but I think sometimes a second look is not all bad.

Just because we "read" something here years ago does not mean there might not be fresh insights. So far I am astonished to find I love it, maybe I've had some kind of whatever, but she's not there yet, she's still trying to cope with her neuroses (she sounds like a female Monk and All of Us at our worst combined, really writes the aging woman well) (at her worst of course, her worst fears) and I am interested to see how she melds in all the craziness I recall her doing last time. Maybe she does not, and that would account for the previous dislike.

At any rate I'm enjoying it, I think she has a new one out too.

Am making some headway in my own bookshelf rearrangements, and bought Out of Africa and Shadows on the Grass by Iask Dinesen to try again, they are combined in one volume this time and I thought I'd give it another whirl, this time without reference to the movie "IIIIII had a FAHRMMMMM in AHHHFRICA!" and Elspeth Huxley's own references to her (which I am positive are most accurate). She'll have big shoes to fill in writing about Africa against Huxley, whose books are a joy.

I am also rereading EF Benson's Lucia in London, his writing is like cool clear sparkling fun water in a fountain, and I've got Fik Jeijer's The Gladiators (which is non fiction) at the top of a wonderful stack including Winner of the National Book Award, Patterson's Beach Road, and The Bookwoman's Last Fling. Don't you love having stacks of books, just waiting?

I think what we are offering here in the Books, in our summer and fall line ups are some of the very best, two on India, one on Bligh, one by Cervantes, one with famous author, best selling The Poe Shadow, three on Poe, one on Tennyson, a whole Poetry discussion of Poe's works, jeepers, months and months of great discussions and super books, old and new. I keep picking up the Bligh (I just found Awake, Bold Bligh also on my shelves which I'll try to read before that discussion, and am having THE BEST SUMMER in reading.

(If you have not seen Pirates of the Caribbean II run, it's fabulous, Johnny Depp's Captain Jack Sparrow equals Jack Nicholson's Joker).

I have found to my shock that I watch absolutely no television any more whatsoever unless it's the Discovery, PBS, or History Channels and as a consequence I have no idea what or who half of the Emmy Nominees are! I must be getting OLD!

I quit watching the Sopranos when the cast kept getting arrested, ahahhaa that's cruel and not fair to the splendid acting of some of them, but it's the truth.

I do have a new show I like and it's called Unwrapped, have any of you seen it? It's on the Food Channel on 7:30 M-F for a half hour, it's quite interesting.

In this show they "unwrap" the various processes manufacturers go thru to bring you a product: they show how things are made. When I was in high school in PA it was common to take "field trips" into steel mills and chocolate factories and show you how things were made, this show is a virtual field trip.

We've watched them produce potato salad, which was fascinating, (Southern buyers want more mustard in their potato salad), test Dixie paper plates with baked beans, make tri colored 4th of July popsicles, it's fun and very interesting, and they do several trips in that 1/2 hour.

The only Emmy Nominated Show I have seen was the Helen Mirren's Elisabeth R, and Curb Your Enthusiasm which I used to watch for its sheer cleverness with the extremely outré Larry David. They used to say you are getting old when you watch Lawrence Welk (who is STILL in syndication). I wonder now if you're getting old if you don't want to watch television??!!??

A good book is SOOOO much better! Or so I think, and the promise of a good book is even better. Were you all up on the Emmy Nominees this time?

Ginny, we do watch some of the network shows. But, like you, we don't watch most of the shows that were nominated for Emmys. The West Wing was always one of our favorites, along with all the cast members. On cable, we watch The Closer. So those are some of the nominees that we know. I guess I'll probably skip the award show this year (as I do nearly all award shows.

)

And so we read! Thank heavens that books are always there!

JOAN, I hadn't checked with Amazon. Thanks for the tip.

Babi

Thanks, Ann, for that link to the TIME article and

thanks, Deems, for your reply and your reasons why there is no one voice of authors for this generation - diversity, yes, I can understand that and movies and TV. All have changed, but not necessarily. Here is a poll that TIME has for recent books that may become classics. I am ashamed to say that I have read none of them; but I read nonfiction for the most part:

WHICH BOOK WILL BECOME A CLASSIC

Ella, I took the quiz. I came very, very close. I enjoyed taking the quiz. Thanks.

Not only have I not read any of the so-called future classics, I have never heard of these titles or their authors. Hmmmmm, do you suppose Steinbeck or Fitzgerald were ever so forgetful??

Didn't we read Bee Season here? and White Teeth has already been made into a movie. Driving home from my daughter's after Christmas I heard The Namesake read by the author on NPR - I had not read or heard of the winner nor the last one on the list - Everything Is Illuminated nor Absurdistan -

I saw a bit of Nathaniel Philbrick talking about Mayflower tonight on Book TV. I'm sorry I didn't see more of it. I hadn't really planned to read this book, but after listening, I have put it on reserve at the library. He says about half of the book deals with Bradford. Gov. Bradford is an ancestor of mine - and I really know nothing more about him. I guess I really need to find something out.

Don't delete this just because it looks weird. Believe it or not, you can read it.

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty

uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg.

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit plcae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh?

Well, I can read it, can you? _____

Wow, I could read it all and I do love good spelling, but I would guess it is not necessary. Ginny,, I liked Out of Africa.Isac's Africa is not nearly as compelling as Elspeths, but that is an adult versus a childs view or so I would assume. Beryl Markham has yet another Africa and I like hers as well. Women and Africa. They have a different perspective than men on the continent.

I could read most of it, but not as fast as I usually read, and I could not make out "cluod" and "aulaclty" until I went through it a couple of times. I'm not totally buying this research.

Kleo

I read it Ann, fun!

In our paper this morning is an article about an Ohio State University history professor by the name of Kevin Boyle who last year won a National Book Award for "ARC OF JUSTICE" He says, among other things, that:

there was a time when the African proverb - "Until lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunters" was true; history tended to glorify the powerful but these days historians are very interested in the experiences of the poor, the oppressed, the defeated

to be a tood teacher you have to be able to communicate with people. Students love interesting stores and that's all history is, a collection of interesting stories

we can and should disagree about interpretations of historical facts

his next book is about political extremism, terrorism and civil liberties in 1920's America

he has given many talks to various groups across the country since his book was published but the highlight of them all came when he met STUDS TERKEL in Chicago. "It doesn't get any cooler than that!

Some of the bookies met Studs Terkel in Chicago also and it was cool.

Has anyone read his book - ARC OF JUSTICE? It is the story of a black doctor who in 1925 moved his family to an all-white neighborhood in Detroit.

I have not read "Arc of Justice" by Kevin Boyle. I will definitely add it to my reading list. Ella, my library does have a copy of "Arc of Justice." Thank you for the title.

Ann, I had fun trying to read it. I didn't get very far. I couldn't make out all the words.

Somethings wrong here I could read it just as fast as regular spelling. What does that say about me???????Ann????

How can we say, until you tell us waht you atcually read?

I took that quiz.. Prep?? Bee Season?? Classics? I hope not. The Namesake I enjoyed. Not sure whether it's "classic" material, but it certainly examines and portrays "small world" life as many are living it.

Not too long ago I recommended the spelling bee film "Spellbound" to a friend. She came up to me not too much later and said, "What was the name of that film?" She had gone to the library and checked out the DVD "Bee Season<" and hated it. If it's as depressing as the book it's easy to understand why.

I am thinking that perhaps if you were taught to read by the old "look-say" method then you anticipate the words coming and supply them yourself and so if the first and last letters are the same you might get it right (and you might make a fool of yourself, I'm sure we can think of some that would not work).

People who were taught to read phonetically might have a harder time as they [in edit: often] have to sound out each word...is it phonemes? I never mastered that way of reading, but if you're sounding each vowel combination out, it would not make any sense.

Let's think of some "Code Breakers," in which the first and last letter being the same, the arrangement of the interior letters would make a difference!

What a fun thing to think about, so like Mary to be so smart, and send such a cute article, thank you, Ann.

Here's one: GRIT GIRT

Different meanings for the different arrangement of the different interior letters. Theory does not always work.

If you learn to read phonetically you do not have to spend your life sounding out each word as you read it. However, you can sound out any word you encounter, should the need arise.

Kleo

Some people who were taught by phonics do, Kleo. (Have to sound out words that are not familiar to them?)

I know quite a few of them in their 60's still sounding out every word, but it may not be typical of all phonics learners, thank you for that correction. Not ALL but quite a few.

I don't ever sound out words, I just look n leap, and sometimes it makes a total fool of me (more than usual) some pretty hilarious ones lately, but I may be getting old.

It may be changes through time, also, or there may be different schools. However, one thing I have in common with most of my friends who attended Catholic Schools and were immersed in phonics is that our reading vocabularies are much larger than our spoken vocabularies. Because we read the words by sight without sounding them out they never become part of our spoken vocabulary. Phonics is a tool you use when you need it--it's great for drama. But it isn't really designed to cripple the user--although this may have been the case at one point.

I just look. But when I speak, oh woman, do I take the foolish leap. That's another plus for books on tape, although it turns out I've been getting the British pronunciation of a lot of words--what's with that? I'm starting back on American classics.

Kleo

I just heard about a new book that I would love to discuss with folks, The Medici Conspiracy: The Illicit Journey of Looted Antiquities--From Italy's Tomb Raiders to the World's Greatest Museums by Peter Watson and Cecilia Todeschini about the pillaging and plundering of archaeological treasures and the complicity of museums in it. It's a very important subject, in my opinion, because it will have the impact to change the way museums do business.

From BN:

"What distinguishes this book from similar exposés about the illicit antiquities trade is the willingness of coauthors Peter Watson and Cecilia Todeschini to name names. Tracing a trove of priceless artifacts along a serpentine trail of greed and deception, they uncover a network of unscrupulous tomb raiders, smugglers, and dealers -- and a clientele that includes world-class cultural institutions, from Sotheby's to Boston's Museum of Fine Arts. Courageous journalism at its best, The Medici Conspiracy rips the lid off two scandals: the shameful looting of our shared archaeological heritage and the lamentable crisis of ethics in the art world."

Has anyone else read it or heard about it? Anyone interested in discussing it with me? Or just reading along? As if I have time....

Kleo

Ginny, I didn't learn by the Phonics method either. I remember my first grade teacher, Mrs. Moore, reading to the class. If you missed a word, she asked another student to tell the word. If they didn't know the word, Mrs. Moore supplied the word. My mother used the same way of teaching at home. I remember reading Dick and Jane with my mother. My mother used Mrs. Moore's method. I don't think that method had a name.

Summer Reading: Private lives of the impressionists

I am with Kleo. I did not learn to read by Phonics, but my written vocabulary has always been much more extensive than my spoken one. Thank heavens, I married an English major who later bacame a disc jockey, so he can pronounce pretty much everything. I still struggle with certain types of words.. If you write it down, I know what you mean.. Hmm..

Hats, the old Dick and Jane series was called the "Look-Say" method which went out of favor for a while. I personally taught both my children to read by it before they entered school, thinking that reading was too important to leave to chance. It worked.

But I have taught enough adults in Adult Ed and in Adult reading programs and have plenty of friends who DO struggle phonetically with a word to know that reading by phonics slowly does exist. Perhaps not in a Reader's assemblage like this one, because it, of necessity, makes for very slow reading, (that does not mean they don't enjoy reading thoroughly) but nonetheless, there are a lot of folks out there who:

can't read at all and

have to sound out every word phonetically.

I am still rereading Margaret Drabble's Seven Sisters and I can't remember or imagine what I hated about it initially, I absolutely love it, talking about aging, Mippy! hahahaa

I think I saw in London she has a new book out, and I have not read hers before but I am going to look this one up, because so far (and I am on page 185 and have taken to carrying it around with me!) I am loving it. Am about 2/3 of the way thru. She does the aging woman well.

I would like to read "Seven Sisters." I have looked back over it in the Archives. I bet it is a good book. It seems to touch on the Classicists whom I know nothing about. I like books written in a diary, journal or letter form. It makes the novel more personal.

Kleo, that sounds like one I would like to read/discuss. So does Seven Sisters. Hats, Sandra Dallas wrote one in the diary format about a woman coming to Colorado and living in a sod house. It's called The Diary of Mattie Spenser. Very good, I couldn't put it down. I must admit, however, that I am absolutely smitten with Sandra Dallas; can't get enough of her writing, so I'm biased.

Mrs. Sherlock, thank you for the title. I loved " Persian Pickle Club."

Kleo, I find your book title very interesting.

Ginny, I think you have some bad experience with phonics or something. There is no requirement for lack of speed in phonics. This doesn't have anything to do with phonics. Just like look-say doesn't limit you to only the vocabulary you learn in school, phonics doesn't require you to slowly sound out "good" for the rest of your life.

Hats, Mrs. Sherlock, yes it does look interesting. If either of you gets it before I do, let me know what you think. I read an article in a news magazine about it yesterday.

Kleo

Ginny and All, I just heard a work on NPR radio. The work is played by a harpist. The name of the piece is "Every Lover Is a Warrior." Then, the announcer said the title is from some piece done by the Latin poet, Ovid.

I know nothing about Ovid. I do love the title of this piece. What does it mean that Every Lover Is a Warrior?

"Every Lover Is a Warrior."

http://www.artworkoriginals.com/EB5TBXES.htm

The complete quote is:

Every lover is a warrior, and Cupid has his camps.
-Ovid

Bubble, thank you!

Do you ever wonder where some of our English words and strange phrases come from? Things like: "gild the lily", or "keep your fingers crossed", or "quiz", "ransack" or "silly season". I love words and phrases and apparently one of our favorite people in this discussion does, too. But she has written a book about it and made it into a delightful game, as well. I just got a copy of the book and I've had more fun with it!

The name of the book is Cock and Bull and the author is Fay Caplin. In Senior Net we know her and enjoy her as Roffay. She posts mainly in the Gripes and Grumbles discussion now, I believe, but she used to post in the Books discussion and some of you may remember her from then.

Congratulations on a good job, Roffay! It's a fun book and I'm enjoying it a lot! And I love your picture on the back cover! If anyone is interested, here is a link:

Cock and Bull

How exciting! I'll have to check Roffay's book out.

Over in NZ many schools have brought back phonics as a part of their reading programs. For dyslexic kids and slow learners phonics are found to be very effective as a tool to learn to read. I have long been a critic of look/say reading. The levels of competence dropped in reading when they completely relied on look/say alone in our schools.

Carolyn

Strange Times, My Dear: The Pen Anthology of Contemporary Iranian Literature

I lack a few pages now of Seven Sisters, and it's as if I never read it before. This is a year of Firsts for us, our 10th Anniversary, and we've had several great innovations and suggestions. Some we have not acted on yet are: Sue mentioned her F2F book club's way of discussing a book by choosing a central theme and reading different books which illustrate it. Mrs. Sherlock suggested a series of books by the same author to see how that author differs in them. Two incredible suggestions from our readers, still being thought of. We've got two good Theme Based book series going new this year, in the Read Around the World and the House series, so we're full of new ideas, even after 10 years, that's a good sign!

It looks like two people here have not read The Seven Sisters, I thought I had? I thought I led a discussion of it for a month. I KNOW I hated it, just HATED it, but I am now thinking that I never really knew what it was about, at all. I THOUGHT it was about Classics, Hats, I am thinking it is not, now. At all. And I am thinking it's, among many things, about how we fictionalize our own lives, especially as we get older. It's powerful. Seems to be about a lot of things.

I must have a Lady of Shalott Complex but it sure speaks to me (she even uses the words "in my tower,") of the same thing.

I don't know what she is saying! I'd like to discuss it again. I'd like to know what we each think she's saying. That's another first, to discuss a book over. We'd need a new format to do that, why plow the same ground twice? We would need to be very creative.

There is a LOT in this book I missed, including what on earth she is saying. I do know it's not about what I thought it was. I recall being incensed by that stupid gold Christmas tree. I wonder if we could somehow cleverly do it in conjunction with Shalott? I mean it's like a coat of many colors, whatever you look for you see: when you look for red, you see red, when you look for green, you see green but what the HECK is she saying?

It's about aging as a woman, and being alone and trying to make your way in the world and relationships with grown children. It's a smash? I must have been under a rock. I would like to do it again. Since Shalott is SOOO short, why could we not combine them in November??!!??

What do you think? How do you spell Shalott, my spell check wants the onion?

The Book of the Dead, now 3rd I think on the NY Times Bestseller list or up there pretty high, has disintegrated into horror, gore and mess. If they would leave that off they'd have….well, what WOULD they have? Seems like every book now needs that? An "ancient" mystery to solve and gore.

Carolyn, I am not sure that the look- say method has resulted in loss of comptetence at higher levels of education, (most of us of this generation and before were taught by it), maybe this is another case of "not always but sometimes, depending on the person?"

In cleaning out my bookshelves I found my little slim copy of Awake, Bold Bligh, and I am excited about it, I am hoping it will shed some light on the events for November.

I'm reading Fik Meijer's book The Gladiators, in which he talks about the "real" gladiators and he promises to end the book discussing, having told us the historical facts, the movies The Gladiator and Spartacus.

It's quite scholarly, you can only (or I can only) absorb a few pages at a time, and very surprising. Not the least of which surprises are the swipes he takes at Michael Grant, who I thought was sacrosanct. Apparently not!

Spartacus is famous for, among other things, being the movie in which at least one of the Roman soldiers is shown wearing a Rolex watch. If you read IMDb, the Trivia section shows some hilarious mistakes in it.

(Have you noticed if you've seen Michael Douglas lately how much he has grown to resemble his father?)

I couldn't help thinking when I read Drabble's The Seven Sisters that she was writing a large bunch of fairly useless words, just for the sake of competing with her sister, A. S. Byatt, and continuing a sibling rivalry quarrel in print.

To me this book is not usual Drabble at all. It held a classical promise that was never fulfilled, though from the beginning here I didn't think classics was her theme. To me, the main character is not very likeable. I found her self-centeredness lifeless and much too boring at times, despite the potential danger round every corner near where she chose to live.

What was the scene I liked so much? Oh, yes. Eating those things, name of which I've forgotten, the minute they were picked up out of the sea. Haven't been able to locate this book since I moved to Pennsylvania last fall, or I'd look it up. Sea urchins?

Mal

I have problems with Drabble. I tend to get uninvolved quickly with her and rarely seem to finish the book. Probably me.. I love the theme type of book discussion. Sounds so interesting. I can hardly wait for our next House discussion. For some reason my listening of audio books is now concentrated on Marion Zimmer Bradleys trilogy for the Arthurian legend. She concentrates on ancient Britain, the druids, goddess worship and how it ties to the legend. I am almost finished with The Mist one and on to Maid, since I have ordered The Forest House and it is not here yet. Good legend type stuff.

Hi Ginny, I think your idea of discussing "Lady of Shalott" with "Seven Sisters" is very, very exciting. I didn't take part the first time. This time I will take advantage of the discussion.

I find it not peculiar at all to see a book in a totally different light when it's read a second time. Our lives move and change. The books, in some way, do too. Books change, it seems, to meet our needs or ideas at the present time.

Mal, thank you for sharing the fact that Margaret Drabble and A.S. Byatt are sisters. I have always wanted to read "Possession." When the Bookies discussed "Possession," it happened before my arrival here.

Stephanie, have you ever heard of a book titled "The Peppered Mother" by Margaret Drabble? I have always thought the title very interesting. I haven't read the book. I might have the title off too.

Hats, Malryn, and Stephanie, well she's so amorphous? I actually thought perhaps there was an amended edition or something, it's that different.

Malryn, good memory, yes, I just read that last night, yes something like that and then the shell gets up and tries to walk away, very graphic sort of nasty scene actually.

It might be a good thing to start out with what people remember from the first book without looking back. I'd have said the gold Christmas tree, I have no idea why I was so fixated on it, it was mentioned one time in passing and I think at the end it might be mentioned again, it's BIZARRE! The thing is a shocker in more than one way. A gentle shocker somewhat like old age.

I think the trick is to see her with a theme, Stephanie! (Or so I now think even tho I have no idea what she's saying). I forgot that about her sister, Malryn, thank you.

I think we can do the Lady and then when it's over apply it to the Sisters, Hats, if we could get enough people to roll with the Sisters. It's frightening how different it looks to me now. It's an easy enough read, on the surface.

In the schools I am familiar with what Ginny calls "look-say" is called "whole language." On the other hand, maybe Ginny is talking about something else. I learned both phonetically and with Dick and Jane, which means, as Ginny points out "look-say." I didn't realize that Dick and Jane were "look-say." My elementary school was not very rigid. Everyone would learn, but some would require different methods.

Kleo

Oh, "whole language," is something different, not a method of reading, but a philosophy of putting reading into the entire curriculum. I'm not sure I understand what it is.

I'll leave my other post, though.

Kleo

You may like this site about words and cliches

http://www.takeourword.com/

You can get on a newsletter that comes out each week that talks about word and cliche origins.......jean

Has there been a discussion on SN of this book? If so, how do i get to the archives? .......jean

Aha, Mabel, you've started on a fantastic series. I think there are several of us who have read it. Would you like to discuss this book? Have you read any others in the series? Mary Russel fans, chime in please.

Ginny with look/say you are unlikely to pick up dyslexics early enough. Most dyslexics have a really good memory and that is what helps them disguise their learning disabilities. They never picked up my grandaughter at school - she picked it up herself and came home from school announcing she had something wrong with her brain. She was right at only 6. Her school has now changed to mostly phonics. My grandsons expensive private school has high academic levels and they use phonics as their main reading program tool.

Carolyn

didn't know it was a series. There are others that follow of Holmes and Russell?......jean

carolyn my daughter had just the opposite problem she could not utilize phonecs but did have an excellent memory for shape. . .the general appearance of the word which is how she eventually learned to read.

there is an interesting study which shows how we all can make sense of what we read if the beginning and ending of the word is in place and the other letters can be anywhere within the word. I think this must have been how she functioned.

as an adult she's garnered a PHD in Psychology and is a research scientist. so whatever system she used did work for her. . . claire

I'll look for that test paragraph to post here.

there is an interesting study which shows how we all can make sense of what we read if the beginning and ending of the word is in place and the other letters can be anywhere within the word. I think this must have been how she functioned.

as an adult she's garnered a PHD in Psychology and is a research scientist. so whatever system she used did work for her. . . claire

I'll look for that test paragraph to post here.

" Can You Read This? 39 days ago cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! ... "

JEAN, there is a series of stories about Sherlock Holmes and his extraordinary assistant Mary Russell. Very enjoyable. I had read three before I found "The Beekeeper's Apprentice" and learned how it all started. You have some pleasant hours to look forward to.

Babi

I learned by the Look and Say method. Had no problem with it but got very bored as some of the (mostly boys) had real problems with LOOK or DOWN or LUMP. Teacher had big flash cards and we all sat on a rug and she called on people. I knew the whole deck by day 2, but many were struggling.

Later, much later, I found out about dyslexia and the problems some kids had suddenly made sense.

My daughter learned to read with the Open Court system which is phonics. It was being tested in the Illinois school she attended. I still remember (it's probably around here somewhere) the workbook with a little girl on the cover blowing at a dandelion (sound was WH). Great things were said in letters home to parents introducing the program.

Promises were made.

By the end of the first grade, all the kids in Susan's class were reading above grade level. They ranged from grade 2 to 4. She had this system in second grade as well. The children read fairy tales and real stories in an anthology sort of text book. No Dick. No Jane. No limited vocabulary. What the kids today call "chapter books."

When she was in 3rd grade we moved, but her reading habits were well established.

She reads faster than I do. I asked her if she still "sounded out" words. She said not unless the word was in another language.

I wish son had had Open Court too. He had some problems with reading, problems with enjoying it. He reads well now, but I wonder what he missed out on.

I remember my six year old daughter sitting in an armchair holding a book upside down. the rest of us two adults and older brother were reading for fun and she was so frustrated. I'll never forget it . . so cute. both kids grew up to be voracious readers. . . claire

The SUMMER '06 ISSUE of ALLEGRO is on the web.

SeniorNet authors and poets whose work appears in these pages are Carole Corner, Bob Haseltine, ET, Marie DiMauro Frederickson, Maurice K. Ballard, Doyle Harden, Virginia Bickel, Alfie Geeson, Jerilyn Bell, Frank Martin and Gladys Barry.

There is an essay by guest contributor Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca and poetry by James E. Fowler. Watercolor paintings by Ann Dora Cantor are in this issue of Allegro.

ALLEGRO has been gone for a while, but now is back full steam, bigger and better than EVER!

Marilyn Freeman, Editor and Publisher of
ALLEGRO, the WREX magazine
http://www.sonatapub.com/pages.htm

I learned to read by myself at about 4 and darned if I know how.. I just know that one day the words suddenly started to make sense. My Mother made me hide that I could read when I went to school, since back then, it was frowned upon for a child to read before school. But my granddaughter has had a terrible time. Phonics made her confused. She is reading now and has been for the past year. We had her tutored and the one on one human element made her learn. I suspect Look say is what helped her since her memory is excellent. She is 10 and reading chapter books and loves it. Always has a new list for Nana to think of buy ing for her.

My understanding is that the Look Say Method (of which Dick and Jane are one example) was stopped somewhere around '65, due to a furor spreading across the country that affected all English teaching, this one the Why Johnny Can't Read (and including the hidjous Transformational Grammar). This may have been the time of the New Math as well not sure on that one it may have come later. I seem to recall them putting it in when my oldest entered grade school, somewhere around 1973, here in SC, to much fuss.

Everybody learns differently, most of us who were born before 1965 in the US were probably taught by the Look Say Method unless of course we are in our hundreds and used the McGuffey Readers.

But there were combinations, too, and we did learn to sound out some of the words, later on. This is an interesting conversation.

Stephanie, I well remember when it was thought not good to teach children to read before they entered school (what is it thought today? Who can keep track of the latest theories? Do any of you know if children are supposedly benefitted or harmed by knowing how to read when they enter school?) I also did not tell the kindergarten teacher my oldest could read. He was 4 I think and had been reading quite a while (Dick and Jane). One day the Kindergarten teacher asked me to wait after school and breathlessly (this was the end of the year) said, "Scott can READ!"

I said I know. She said no he can READ, hard words, like GIANT!

Have never figured out what was so hard about giant but there you are.

When he started school it was definitely frowned upon to have taught a child to read before hand. Bored them. Problem caused by parent. Problem parent.

5 years later when the youngest began it was hoped the parent WOULD have done a bit of in home reading, helped the child. times change.

I did not leave either to chance. Reading and a love of reading is too important. Had they not been able to catch the Look Say I would have left it, but they did.

And I will say here, perhaps somewhat immodestly, that I also taught a child who had been placed in a Special School where his mother reported indignantly that all they did was teach him to set the table and wash dishes. She wanted him mainstreamed in a public school before it was done. He had not been taught to read, but we used Dick and Jane for one summer and he was able to enter a real classroom at a real grade level for the first time in his life. I've forgotten what grade he should have been in, I think 3rd and he was put back to 2nd, but she did not care, she wanted him in there with the others. Using Dick, Jane and M&M's. no joke. NOW I know of course that had he had any number of reading problems he could not have, but he didn't, apparently. It was a case of trying anything, nothing ventured. I don't know why he was there because I don't know anything about Special Ed, but he did quite well; we both had a wonderful time, and his mother still talks about it: I think I myself gained 10 pounds. hahaaa

I like Dick and Jane and if I had it to do over I'd use them tomorrow, assuming, of course, the child in question took to them. If not, not.

I am not sure Johnny Can Read in 2006, can he?

From what I hear children have great difficulty reading. That's just reading words. What about comprehension skills?

See Jane

See jane run

See Dick

See dick Run

See spot

See spot run

hehe

Run Spot Run

Go Puff Go

Go Go Go

Run Sally Run

I loved the paintings in the Dick and Jane books. Sally or Jane under an umbrella on a rainy day, pushed along by the rain. You had to love Spot and Puff.

No doubt you will be astonished, Ginny, but as we differ on the benefits of diagramming sentences so we differ on the merits of Dick and Jane.

I remember their cheerful little house set in the middle of nowhere. I remember especially the bright colors. I remember Spot and Puff and the endless repetition. Never cared one whit about what would happen to either Dick or Jane. Or Baby Sally for that matter.

I was so glad to get away from them. They went the way of all things somewhere in second grade.

I suspect that it's not only the method used to teach writing but the teacher who comes into play. A good teacher, one skilled in not only the method, but in an understanding of children, can probably teach by any method.

Montessori Schools start the little ones with all manner of tactile associations to familiarize them with letters and numbers. Numbers made of felt. Letters of sandpaper, cloth, velvet, etc.

I haven't had any direct experience with the method but I know people who swear by it because it reaches children with many different learning styles.

There's interesting information about Maria Montessori HERE

I just finished reading "Will in the World" by Stephen Greenblatt. I really enjoyed this book as did most people in my face to face book club. We had quite a lively discussion on it this past Tuesday.

Joan Grimes

What's Will in the World about, Joan G?

hahaha Hats you and Judy are nuts!

Oh oh

Look look

See Judy and Hats.

See Judy joke!

See Hats joke!

Run, Judy run!

Run, Hats, run! hahaaaa

Hide, Hats and Judy!

hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Did you all know, did you see it on the news, that they now say they can teach DOGS to read?

Yes, it's true, did you see it? Have you taught your dog? I've forgotten how many words they say the dog can learn, it's cards with commands.

Deems I am not surprsied you outgrew Dick and Jane in the 2nd grade, as brilliant as you are!

I have no problem with Montessori except it was not available here then? You can't enter a classroom which does not exist, right?

I am not sure when it really got started in the US, probably in some areas more than others. I like the link tho, I did not know much about her.

Diagramming is FUN~!! No wonder you don't like it, you like FAULKNER!!!!!

FAULKNER!

I need a translator for Faulkner, maybe I need courses in comprehension!

Will in the World by Stephen Greenblatt is indeed a fine book about Shakespeare!

Diagramming, Ginny? Again?
Not my favorite, as we had a teacher who could not explain it, just threw the papers back at you and said do it again. I ought to post this in the Teacher Man discussion.

I think you SHOULD post that there, I would love to read it.

There is NOTHING like a good diagram, beats Sudoku or however you spell it every time.

I did NOT bring up diagramming, DEEMS did and she does not like it!

It apparently gets in your blood? hahahaa

Oh oh

Look Look (this is kind of addictive?) haahahha

(It really is?)

Just to get your goat, Ginny. Anything to get your goat.

Will in the World is available in paperback. The Will in question is Shakespeare.

I don't like Soduko or ku either.

My sister in law's children went to private school. My children went to public school. I, myself, went to public school. I only heard of Montessori because of one being in Chattanooga. This is not the school my sister in law's children attended.

Montessori

We read Alice and Jerry in my elementary school. No Dick and Jane for us. I feel I missed out on something.

Marni, we probably missed out on something not reading "Alice and Jerry." In what city did you go to school?

I'm steaming. My daughter just sent me a long rant about the way they are teaching math in the middle school where here son goes. They moved into the area because of the schools and this is not only a disappointment it's a crime. Taxpayers deserve better than to have kids experience failure because they are taught to the state tests and never understand or master the material they are supposed to be learning. it's a long letter. Is this the place? Claire

marni--Nope. Alice and Jerry were identical to Dick and Jane except for the names. Did they have a dog? Did they have a cat? Did they have a Mommy and a Daddy?

Hats: I grew up in New London, CT.

Deems: I'm upset. I can't remember the dog's name. GAD.

Oh, I have it. The dog's name was Jip.

Marnie I say Spot. See Spot run hehe

and Spot, indelelably burnt upon my brain at a very sensative time. I did learn to read fairly early. Booth Tarkingtons Penrod and Sam by the forth grade. I remember some of that too.

In an effort to appeal to the widest possible population they offered material without anything memorable in it. and yet we still remember the pictures. kids have idetic imagery and are very visual. line drawings filled in with color something like the coloring books at the time. that's what I remember and SEE SPOT RUN, SEE DICK RUN, SEE JANE RUN. . .the point well made that everyone can run. also the word RUN. Amazing what I remember but that's part of aging too. It's the short term memory that suffers. . . .I'll always know how to spell SEE and RUN. . .claire

Marni, after writing the question, I remembered your posts about Ct. in many of the history book discussions.

Claire, short term memory is terrible, downright embarrassing.

Claire: I didn't read Penrod til Junior High School. It was one of the funniest books I've ever read.

Why can I remember my reading primer, Dick and Jane, and not my first math book? I can't remember what the math textbook looked like or the title. Is that because I didn't do well in math?

Oh, math. Ugh, how I hated it my entire school life. I remember the embarrassments in just First Grade. We had to go up to the board and write in chalk the answers to simple arithmetic problems, 4 children at a time. There were all these smart kids in class who were whizzes in arithmetic. I'd stand up there - DUH - not being able to come up with the answer and I'd always be the last of the 4 at the board. I HATED math from the very beginning and never got over it.

In California public schools in the 1940's, we had Tom and Nancy, instead of Dick and Jane. Does anyone else remember them? Tom always wearing a striped T-shirt and shorts, and Nancy with curly blond hair and pinafore style dresses. That reminds me that we all had to wear dresses or skirts to school back in those days. No shorts or pants! We also wore a hat to church or Sunday School every week. Times change!

I hated it from the first too. Going to the board trying to do a problem was like real physical pain. I would never want to relive that experience.

Ride Sally Ride

Kleo

The state in this case is NEW YORK and the student is Lewis my grandson and a good student doing well as long as his mother teaches him. see the following letter I received from my daughter who normally is monosyllabic. She's good at abstract thought I'm the noisy verbal one. . .claire

I don't think he dislikes math or fears it, it just doesn't turn him on. I think I have accomplished that much by refusing to let the poor teaching be internalized by him as his lack of ability. As you say, numbers have to be clear to get the right answer and that is an issue sometimes.

Although he gets the "hard" part about math, the concepts fairly easily, I think it is his lack of attention to details that gets in his way the most. That and the fact the school grade form and content equally. You can go from an "A" to a "C' on an test because you didn't "show your work" to their satisfaction even with the right answers. I've tried to teach him that directly. As in, you can do this in your head, but you better put down something so you don't get nicked for not showing your work. But even I'm guessing at what will be acceptable.

They justifiy this by saying that is how the State tests grade their tests and to keep the kids from doing lousy on the standardized testing, they have to teach them to do this. They "teach" them to do this, not by giving them explicit examples on what would be considered "showing your work" but by taking points off on their tests when the kids have done too much of the work in their heads or guess wrong about how much documentation is necessary. So, we discourage kids from feeling competent in a subject by success on their school tests so that the district can look better on the standardised ones.

The other main problem I have is that the school only uses direct teaching methods with the highest level of math, the other levels get a lot more constructionist methods (things like "pi week" where among other things they baked pies to understand the concept of pi in geometry) (Catherine's web site has a lot more on this). However, the highest level of math isn't great because they move them quickly through without assigning sufficient practice thereby making what isn't that difficult of material, hard. I make Lew do more practice sometimes, but you can imagine how popular that is coming from me.

I've found that the most efficient way to help Lew is to check his homework every night and have him redo the problems he gets wrong on his own. If he still can't do it, then I teach him what he's having problems with. More often than not, he can redo the problem correctly. Most of the time, this requires that I do his homework, myself, since he is mostly assigned problems without the answers being available. Wouldn't you think that this is a processs that the teacher should handle? Check homework, make kids redo the problems they missed or ask for help on how to do them. And if this is responsibility that parents are suppose to have, how about giving us access to the answer key? Needless to say, I don't manage to do this all the time. I'm too tired, Lew has done his homework at study hall and didn't bring that notebook home, etc. If I do this consistently, he gets B+ to A's. If I don't do it, he gets C to F's. The schools answer to this is, maybe he doesn't "belong" in the highest level of math. And I would have no problem with him being in a lower level of math, if they didn't waste their time baking pies in there.

They also do this stupid, spiriling way of teaching where they "introduce" material for about 4 years in a row, but don't teach the kids to mastery. If they don't do well on fractions, never mind, we are on to the next subject and you will have another go at fractions, in about a year. So kids get use to "not really getting it" and moving on anyway, just a little more confused. The beauty of math at this level, is that there are right answers and once you learn how to do a certain kind of problem, you can be confident that you can handle similar problems in the future. That can lead to more confidence, if they insisted on kids showing a mastery of the material (usually defined as 90% correct). But that would make the teachers accountable as well. And it is easier on everyone, just to move on.

Well, you've probalbly heard all this before from me but you got me started

Yikes, I think my eyes are crossing! Just looking at words about math makes my brain turn to mush

In my 2nd year of teaching in high school, I was the first teacher to wear a pants suit. Remember when they first came out in about 1969 or 1970? I got my nerve up and wore it - a beautiful woolen dressy pants suit. First time I ever wore pants to teach. My students were shocked. One student told me I didn't look professional.

I remember seeing Marva Collins on Sixty Minutes.

Marva Collins

"She reads faster than I do. I asked her if she still "sounded out" words. She said not unless the word was in another language."

Okay, I spoke to a bunch of folks yesterday who learned to read purely phonetically--meaning my family, no way scientific. None of them sound out words as they read. Most had never even thought about it. Some looked at me askew and questioned my reading ability....

I started first grade in 1966, so Dick and Jane was not removed from schools in 1965.

I thought Dick and Jane was so boring in school I begged my parents for a book to read--they bought me a brand new book, something quite unusual in my home, a beautifully illustrated children's book of Edward Lear's poem, "The Owl and the Pussycat." Oh, and they got me a library card and started taking me to the library.

My parents are not proponents of the wait until you're in school method, they're proponents of the wait until the child is ready method. A lot of children aren't ready to read until they're at least 6 years old. This is usually the case in my family. Sadly, the youngest reader in the family, who taught herself to read at about age 3, is the only nonreader in the family as an adult. I hope this changes for her.

My son was not reading in January of first grade. At his conference his teacher said she was not worried because he enjoyed being read to more than any other child in the class, and he would learn to read when he was ready. He did start reading about a month later, just before his 7th birthday. By the end of first grade he tested way above grade level and was the best reader in all of the lower grades.

I don't think reading is a competition, because I think that the world is a better place for everyone the more literate readers there are. I was very anxious about my son learning to read so late, because of all the parents who taught their children to read so young and told me about it. My mother urged me to mellow out, though, pointing out that her children all learned to read comparatively late, except for one, and they all loved to read. I only read a couple of hundred books a year, probably less, well below my siblings who generally consume more than one book a day. My mom reads 2-3 a day.

People are so individual in so many things, it's no wonder there are reading teaching styles, and ages, and books for every one.

Oh, I love Faulkner! Maybe only phonetic folks like him!

Kleo

my math abilities end with algebra and geometry and just barely there. My daughter who thinks calculus is easy gets it from her father who taught sixth grade kids to LOVE IT. confidence matters a lot in this department. my eyes are a bit crossed naturally maybe that's the clue. . . .Claire

Maybe that's it, Claire.

I'll start crossing mine on purpose. Maybe it'll help me with math in my dotage.

Sorry, Claire, I got a crossed-eye and love math to pieces.

Kleo

I began the first grade in 1934 when I was six.

about my kids both read a lot it's part of their lives. I wrote a short story about the day it all came together for my son when he was in the third grade. It's not all true since I kill off my daughter at the end but something has to happen in a story to make it worth reading and this was a real punch where I put it. It's on my page under stories and the name is I think, it's been a while. SIBLINGS. that was the real theme. . . .claire

Wow look at all the posts just since this morning!

marni--Congratulations on remembering JIP, but it is a stolen name. Dora's little dog in David Copperfield is named JIP.

I know this only because my little Jack Russell played JIP in a really bad play based on the novel.

Kleo--Never thought of that, the link between appreciating phonics and liking Faulkner. Perhaps you are onto something! Daughter (the one who learned to read with phonics) LOVES Faulkner. She read The Sound and the Fury when she was about 14. (I read it in graduate school.)

"I began the first grade in 1934 when I was six." Me, too.

My older brother could read on entering first grade and he was moved to second grade at Thanksgiving. Being a year younger, he floundered socially and became the bullies' main target.

I remember quite well, that I was not to tell the teacher I could read. I do remember that we had the Elson-Gray readers through grade school and I still have the fourth and fifth readers.
______________________________
Math: The teachers have to "teach the test" now. Since they are mandated to leave no child behind, they are forced to teach what is in the test, or state and federal aid will be withdrawn. The teachers must be very careful not to hold too many children back, even though they have not learned the basics. It might be detrimental to their social development and social skills.

Example: My daughter has one class of 30 and 9 of those students are LD student (Learning Disability) mainstreamed with her other students. They can learn -- it just takes longer. So the remaining 21 don't receive the attention and are also slowed down to accommodate the slow ones. But the worst part, now, -- is the State Board of Education thinks a teacher should be graded on the success or failure of the students, not taking into account abilities of the children or class size.
____________________________
And while I'm spouting off. Did you know that the proposed changes that Bush wants for Social Security, includes a rule that teachers cannot draw on their Social Security if they also have a teacher retirement plan, no matter what size that retirement benefit is.

A widow will not be able to draw on her husband Social Security if she has a teacher retirement benefit.

So the Social Security paid in from those summer jobs and part time jobs during college is gone.

My niece attends a Title I school, a school with lots of immigrant non-English speaking students, although a smaller minority of ESL students at her school than many Title I schools. I was not particularly pleased about this as her mother just moved her from an excellent East Bay school to this new K-12 miles away. However, she had a wonderful teacher for the school year who really understood just how smart my niece is. The teacher never missed a chance to say hi when I picked my niece up and brag to me about some wonderful accomplishment of my niece.

The teacher excels in all areas. The math book my niece used for the school year is unlike anything I've seen in a modern school. It is 400 or so white pages with a single font of black text from front to back. Each section is a short paragraph, followed by an example or two, then hundreds of exercises at all levels. There are review sections which bring together multiple learned exercises. There is not a single photograph or side-bar in the whole book. My niece loved the book and really excelled with it. Her teacher says even the poorer students do well with it because it is less visually distracting than most math books.

I think schools have taken the joy from math by turning it into a Saturday morning cartoon-athon of captions, pictures, sidebars and enrichments. One of my other nieces has a math book so busy that you can't find the explanations in it--oops, it turns out that some of the examples and introductions to math concepts are simply missing!

The schools have made math something it isn't, hard.

Kleo

Pat,

You are so right when you point out how this detracts from the learning of the other students. But it also detracts from the learning of the LD students.

California schools get extra money for kids in ESL classes, so they put anyone they can in ESL classes. I picked up one of my nieces from her ESL classes. She was the top student in her school and has spoken English from birth. However, California language forms require that you put ONE language as your first language, and that labels you an ESL student, even if you are bilingual.

She did not have a very good ESL teacher that year (2nd or 3rd grade). The teacher was quite relieved to have a student of my niece's caliber (in other words, a student who already knew everything the teacher was supposed to be teaching to the other students) in her classroom, so she taught to my niece. This robbed the other children of what was being funded: their learning English.

How incredibly sad that we try to be all things to all people and wind up being nothing to anyone. No wonder education is failing.

Kleo

For those of you with active visual memories, check this out.

There's a link to Alice and Jerry in the left-hand column.

We are heading down the road of nostalgia. What fun! Thanks, Deems. This is the first time I have ever known anything about the author.

You're welcome, Hats, finally got it in the right discussion! Ooops.

Maryal, you are an eagle eye too. Boy, that took some moving back and forth. I am exhausted now.

the one thing i remember is that Jane, Joan and Nancy and Dick, Jerry and Sam were always cute little blue-eyed, blonde haired kids, never a person of color in sight! And Mothers were always home baking cookies or ironing or mending. The only women w/ jobs were teachers, librarians or nurses and the boys were always the active ones, the girls were on the sidelines watching. Those books taught us more than just how to read!

Right on Kleo - "ride Sally Ride!" She must have gotten some other messages than those in her Dick and Jane readers!! I met her in 1985 just after her trip into space. We (the Alice Paul Foundation) honored her w/ the Alice Paul Woman of Courage Award.

I hated diagramming sentences in ninth grade, but it stands me in good stead often as i write today. Have you noticed how often people bastardize adverbs - using "more important" rather than "importantly" etc.........jean

must have been my kids books.

Oh, fun to see those old books. Thanks, Maryal!

I think we ask questions now. Maybe the questioning came after the Hippie movement. I never remember thinking of Sally's hair color or Dick's hair color. I didn't think of the gender question. Perhaps, because I was a child. Children are not racist. Children have a sweet innocence.

I was blessed to be brought up in a two parent home. My father had his own business and a part time job. My mother stayed home. My mother daily read to me from the Dick and Jane books. She never mentioned color. She wanted me to love reading.

Before the sixties, I think the generations just accepted without question. Maybe they didn't accept but didn't know how to voice their concerns about racial superiority.

Then the sixties with the Civil Rights Movement came and eyes opened. People became wiser or more outspoken. Those days led to this time, a better time. There are books about different types of families: adopted children, racial mixes, racial discrimination, children of devoirce, children living in projects, children with one parent because of death. Somewhere there is an author trying to write about all the issues children face, issues not fitting the norm. This is a better time, I think.

So, I guess my memories are bittersweet. No, not bittersweet, sweet. I will not allow my innocence, for that day and time, to be touched.

Yes, Jane may have been running with Dick, but Sally was growing up then and got a different message.

My school had a rocket club open to boys in fifth grade and up. When I was in 4th grade I got a friend to help me protest the exclusion of girls from the club and petition for admission. We gathered signatures and formally requested permission for girls to be allowed in the rocket club from then on. We were the first girls. My mother was in the first class of women admitted into a prestigious engineering college, she and 5 other women in the 50s.

My Dick and Jane books had black girl twins named Pam and Penny in them, so they weren't all white/blond/blue in the 60s, although earlier editions might have been. This was kind of interesting because in first grade I lived in a pretty much all white neighborhood, the exception being a family with black girl twins, who were also albinos. Their names were NOT Pam and Penny.

Kleo

Here's how Dr. Zvi Saks feels about it:

'Mathematics for me was always a spiritual area and I always wondered what potential application there might be for my complex and abstract PhD thesis, which had no known relation with the physical world... When I began studying Torah (Hebrew Scripture), it really amazed me to discover that the creation of the world by God as described in Chassidut was the actual application of the mathematical work that I did... (and) helped me to understand some of the processes with which God Almighty created the world.'

Many of us are satisfied with the simple, correct 'And God said...' answer to the puzzle of creation, but here, thanks to Dr. Saks, we get the 'elegant solution' so dear to the mathematician. The 'show me' so dear to the teacher.

I've been interested in the discussion here about learning to read. I could read some before I started first grade in September, 1934, and have very little memory of how and what I was taught that year.

From July 1935 to July the following year I was sick in bed with polio. I was read to, if anyone had the time, and later when I was able to sit up a little and the use of my hands came back some, I read on my own. All kinds of books, newspapers and magazines, as I recall, whatever anyone brought to me. It was then, too, that I began making up stories and "writing books" on my own, all illustrated by me.

The first year I had French in high school, it was taught phonetically. Not knowing any French at all, we spoke that language from the first day in September the door closed on that class until the last day it opened in June. The next year I began Italian. We spoke and heard only Italian in that class, too.

English throughout my schooling, three years of Latin, three years of French and two of Italian in high school, with more Italian after I entered college. I sang operatic arias, you see, in French, Italian and German and also sang some songs in Russian, which I didn't start learning until years and years later. I didn't learn much, but my professor told me my pronunciation and accent were fine. That's because I am a musician and early on was trained to have a very good ear for sound and intonation.

Mal

My mom was a lider singer so I was exposed to Italian and German and French songs and to this day I can sing bits of what she sang. It just stuck in my head. Then in school Latin, which except for the beginning of Ceaser venividivici. . . .I don't remember a thing and lots of spanish. Long after all the schooling I sang in Spanish with a partner who grew up in Los Angeles in a large family some of whom spoke it. she did not but they did sing it. As her guitar teacher I learned many of her songs and sang harmony with her and the linkages made pronunciation easy because they were part of the song. . . so now when I use any of my limited Spanish people think I can speak it. I'm too limited as to vocabulary to do that although I suppose I could develope it in the right environment and I still sing in Spanish and enjoy it so much that it comes out RIGHT. Music makes all languages easier to understand I think and even those with speech impairment do better when singing. . . Claire

PatWest... re. your statement about social security and teacher retirement. Here in Alaska I know there is some sort of link between social security and your state retirement. There are just a few states that do this. I am not sure how it works, but it could be that the ss is deducted from the pension. I do not know why this is done.

I am a retired teacher from the state of Alaska, but was in a district both here in Alaska and in several in California where we did not pay into social security. My other little jobs did not give me enough quarters to qualify.

Frankly it angers me because I feel you have a right to wear many hats in your lifetime and why should there be a penalty for doing that? You earned your money fair and square in both systems and you were paying "retirement" money into both systems.

Kathy

my husband had social security as well but it wasn't much and I chose not to have half when I could have after divorcing him. he got it along with his teacher retirement plan. They didn't require that he choose. I barely had forty quarters since I didn't join the mainstream but raised kids and made art and music for all that period of my life and I get my medicare paid and seventy five bucks a month. that's something anyway. I'd rather receive it than pay it. . . Claire

I also learnt to read at 4. The small boy next door was 5 and was learning to read at school. After school he would bring his reader out to our stoop and I would sit beside him enthralled. I stayed in kindergarten only 6 weeks then they moved me on to a level with other children who could read. By 6 and a half years old I was devouring adults books as well as childrens books. It was my own uncontrollable passion to find out about everything I think that enabled me to strive to read at an early age. Children here start to learn to read at 5. My grand Grace is a very good reader and speller and she will be 6 in October. She actually is obsessed by spelling and goes about all day spelling the names of all the objects or people she encounters during her day. Its so funny to observe.

Carolyn

Hats- little kids do not recognise colour. I remember I was 5 before I realised my best friend was a little Indian girl. My sister was 5 before she realised her best friend Janie was Fijian. Its only if parents comment on racial differences kids pick up on it before the age of about 5. Ah the goodness and innocence of children before adults imprint their own feelings on them.

changed the rules when i went to kindergarden age four and I was not allowed to go to first grade until I was six. so I spent a year and half in kindergarden with all those PAINTS. Claire

Carolyn, so true. My grandchildren have no idea about the differences in color. Children are just sweet. My grandchildren are biracial. That carries an extra set of problems in society. I do think in these times children all around the world, including America, face all sorts of burdens. Problems that children should never have to face. War is one nasty thing children face on a daily basis. It is so sad. Children can't defend themselves.

this is an old post and it's one a.m.here right now so what time is it there. . .claire

Hi Claire, I have been laughing while reading Don Quixote. It's four thirty-five here. I feel like we are whispering in the dark. Can you hear me???

HERE I HAVE BEEN SINCE 4:30AM AND NOW I FIND THAT THERE ARE OTHERS STILL UP OR JUST GETTING UP, ALL AROUND ME. WHEN DO WE GET TO SLEEP? HAHAHA! MY VERY DRY MOUTH WOKE ME UP AND I HAVE BEEN PLAYING ON THIS 'PUTER EVER SINCE! TRYING TO FIND OUT WHY I HAVE SUCH A DRY MOUTH AT NIGHT.

ALSO AM PLANNING TO VISIT WITH OUR GREAT GRANDSON NEXT SATURDAY. WHAT A TREAT THAT WILL BE!

I HAVE BEEN MEANING TO TELL YOU THAT USING THE BOOK NOOK LINK AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE, TAKES ONE TO THE READ ONLY FOLDER. CAN YOU FIX THAT?

Such lovely memories. I had Dick,Jane and Sally and remember even the pictures so vividly. I always loved math. It was science later that drove me nuts. Chemistry to this day sends me screaming from the room. I have a son however who adores all science and is an Environmental Engineering Specialist. His passion is waste water and hazardous waste.. Ugh.. But he loves it. In Florida they teach to the test.. They have no choice really. They hold the kids back or not award diplomas based strictly on the test. not how much they learned or their grades.. Just the test.. Terrible thing to do to children. Each learns by their ability and there are many people in the world who simply learn slowly or are not interested in book learning.. Technical schools would help a lot.

Stephanie, I was in pre-med until chemistry derailed me. Loved physics, math, languages, etc. but chemistry? Fogedaboutit.

Ginny,

You asked me about "Will in the World". The question was answered but I awanted to add that It is written from the critical approach call New Historicism. It is very interesting. Just click on New Historicism to read about this critical approach.

I really enjoyed the book.

BTW, I love to diagram sentences and I love William Faulkner.

Joan Grimes

Ann - you have a dry mouth at night because you are mouth breathing -probably snoring LOL! To prove it borrow a video camera and set it to film you sleeping. My daughter and I are both mouth breathers because of chronic sinus problems our mouths are dry as a bone every morning.

Carolyn

Joan: Maybe it is my sociology major breaking through, but the New Historicism sounds like the ideal way to interpret a work of literature. I just read the into, but I'll eagerly read the rest and follow the links. Thank you for this. Plus, when I find which box Will in the World is in, I'll sit right down and begin that, too. Reading about QE I, Cecli, Marlowe, the spies, the Boleyns, et al., has my appetite whetted for more. NH, what took them so long?

BTW, Chasing Shakespeare, by Sarah Smith, is a fictional account of such an approach as the protgonaists attempt todetermine by analysis who is truly the true author of what we ascribe to Will Shakespeare. Delightful reading.

Judy,

I am sure you will love "Will in the World". I really liked it.

I am glad you enjoyed the link.

Joan Grimes

I'm late in the discussion, but would like to bring up a few points in favor of both Look-Say and Phonics. As a retired primary grades teacher, I've developed my own methods which include both these strategies, plus others.

One important thing that good teachers did (Miss Burdett, my first grade teacher in 1943) was using the pictures in Dick and Jane to develop comprehension skills. She also stuck in her version of phonics, which was not included in the Dick and Jane readers.

I have used Open Court, Harcourt Brace, McMillan, and numerous other teacher's editions with my own variations. And today, although Whole Language is mostly passe (can't do the little thingie), it incorporates many kinds of skills such as immersion in good literature (teacher reading aloud, providing easy books with great context, has a writing component (journals, especially, starting in Kindergarten). A child can read what he writes or draws.

Deems said: "I suspect that it's not only the method used to teach writing but the teacher who comes into play. A good teacher, one skilled in not only the method, but in an understanding of children, can probably teach by any method."

This is a very true statement--and unfortunately, if your child or grandchild has not become a reader by third grade, the teacher probably didn't understand this.

Maria Montesorri was on the right track, especially with mathematics principles and Piaget hit it right on the nose with his theories of what children needed to be able to do with maths and manipulatives before success came in reading.

Marni, Alice and Jerry were clones of Dick and Jane.

Kleo has the right idea in her #100. Children do learn to read if they have enough experience with language (parents and other adults who talk to them) and with read alouds. I, also, was worried about my oldest who had a fabulous vocabulary, but was having trouble with primers which had cat, sat, hat, type--forget the name--which was totally boring. Open Court has some of this, but also includes literature quickly. That is the key--and BTW, Kleo, I love Faulkner, too.

I want to chime in about "No Child Left Behind", too. Unfortunately in many school districts, particularly those which have poor minorities who have no previous experience with print prior to entering school, Practice, Practice, Practice daily for isolated skills which are tested--and don't take the time to read to kids, teach them to use pictures and text for comprehension, teach phonics skills in conjunction with developing sight vocabulary (look/say--words like what, which, etc, which are not conducive to "sounding out". It's a crime against our children!

Pat West: I hadn't heard that disastrous news about Bush's plan for SS and teacher retirement. I'll be devastated financially if that works out. I rely on both, plus an annuity from the Navy which my husband paid into. I resent paying into both SS and Teacher Retirement for years and having it cut because W thinks he's appeasing someone. Why doesn't he take another look at the disaster they made of the Drug plans!

My grandchildren are here for 3 weeks. They go to a charter school and both read quite well for 7 and 9 year olds. They are taught Spanish daily by native Spanish teachers, so hopefully will also be able to read, write and speak Spanish fluently in a few years. We had 2 30 minute reading periods today because their Mom wants them to have a record of books read to take back to school. Unfortunately, the youngest wants to keep up with the older brother and has chosen a Dumbed down version of The Three Musketeers which he can read, but doesn't understand or have any interest in. I tried to interest him in one of my many age appropriate and interesting books, but he's going to slog his way through this. I'm going to read to them from the Laura Ingalls Wilder series for our bedtime reading and hope I can get him hooked on that.

Forgive me for the length of this post. As you can see I feel pretty strongly about reading! Sue

My son learned to read almost over night in the third grade when we gave him THE SEA HUNT SERIES. adventure stories. He looked up from reading one day and said "this is better than television" because he could envision it for himself and keep returning to it. he had the control. There were several books in the series but that was long ago. I don't know if it still exists. . . claire

Sue: I don't think that Fed Govt thing on SS applies to those of us who paid into SS while we were teaching. More info here:

http://www.trs.state.il.us/subsections/legislative/federal_legislation.htm

In several states people don't pay into SS during their teaching career.

Ann: I'll check the link at the top of the Books page.

jane

I have forgotten who recommended "The Professor and the Madman" by Simon Winchester. I am really, really enjoying. I am about three quarters of the way through it. I can not put it down.

I am also enjoying the Archived discussion.

What a great book!

Sue, I was just thinking about you and your face to face book group theme reading and how we could somehow do that with the Drabble and The Lady of Shallot.

A lot of us here are former (and current) teachers and for the flip side of the Perfect Teacher, you might want to read some of the memories currently in Teacher Man and see what can go wrong. I bet some of you could add to that your own stories of horror.

But that's not why I came in here, I came IN here to say we were trying our own hands at the art of memoir writing, to see how it felt to do even one episode, and if you have not read Post 258, SierraRose's own memoir of her mother, please do, I don't think you will read anything else like it anywhere else: it's absolutely riveting and searing.

Kudos to all of you who taught well or still do, and cared about the child/ student as well as the subject!!

Hats, our daughter, Jean, was the one who had read that. Glad you're enjoying it.

The reading schedule for "The Dupin Tales" has been posted. You can use the following link to easily guide you to the schedule.

The Dupin Tales

Bill H

Hats, a number of us have read this. It's a fascinating book about a man's unique mind that left the English-speaking world with something enduring. Simon Winchester is great fun as an author because his mind wanders to all that is irrelevant.

Kleo

I've been out for a couple of days, so I'm commenting on older posts. But, have y'all noticed how beautiful mixed race people can be? Look at those golden Hawaiians, with their Hawaiian, Oriental, Caucasian blended bloodlines. Or the Indo-European beauties. And Eurasians.

Vive! ...Babi

African-American and German/United Kingdom/American - and it is true that mixing seems to bring out the best of both genetic sides. My niece is also of a similar background and even tho she is adopted she and my dgt are often mistaken for sisters. Now, i am the mother and therefore biased, but other people comment frequently on the attractiveness of our son and dgt and of my niece. I think mixing races is a potential cure for many of the problems of the world - beginning with it's beauty

My children have friends of every part of the world and very few prejudices - using the literal definition "pre judging" - and as prejudiced people on both sides of the racial ancestry got to know them and us they lost some of their prejudices. It's also a lot of fun to be bi/tri-cultural........jean

I think all of my nieces and nephews and my son and my family and friends are all beautiful whether they are mixed race or not--beauty does not, imo, come from race or from mixing races at all, it comes from being human. I'm not so sure race is even real.

Kleo

beginning to be like that more and more. beneficial I think.

My father used to spend a great deal of time ruminating about "mixed" races. He claimed that until we were all of mixed breeds we would never appreciate one another. I don't know that I agreed with him then or now. I fear that it will be too far into the future. Let us "love one another right now."

Our country has very mixed races. I think it has helped to make us feel closer to one another. There are only a handful of full blooded Maori left. It is interesting to note that our population with Maori blood tend to identify more with their Maori side.

Carolyn

My aunt is of Japanese descent. Her children, my cousins, of half Japanese and half European descent, are simply beautiful. My cousin's daughter is a model.

it's just easily used as an idea. Kleo, no one was implying that single "race" people are not beautiful also. First of all we may all be more mixed up than we think we are, so "single-race" may be a misnomer. According to DNA studies we are all descended from "Lucy" of Africa some millions of years ago. So we are all cousins - HI COUSINS!........jean

Well I have jumped from books like "Will in the World" to very light escape reading. I am now on the 5th novel in the Mitford Series. I had read some of these books several years ago. My husband and I had listened to them on tape when we were traveling in our motor home. We both enjoyed them because they were set in the Applachin Mountains. We discovered them when the series was read here on SeniorNet several years ago. The discussions are in our archives. If you are interested just click on , "At Home in Mitford ~ [Book 1] ~ Jan Karon . That link takes you to the first discussion and there are links in the heading to the others.

I know that many of you will not care for them but they really help me to get my mind off things that I don't need to think about.

Joan Grimes

I'm halfway through the book MOCKINGBIRD, A Portrait of Harper Lee by Charles J. Shields. Harper Lee is the author of TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD. Very interesting. She and Truman Capote were childhood friends, both precocious and with literary talent in abundance. Harper Lee's father, an attorney and part owner of the only newspaper in town, gave her an old Underwood typewriter when she was 10 years old and she and Truman took turns having it in their homes; one would start a story and the other finishing, plus writing short stories.

But Harper Lee, still living, had only one book to write; possibly because all the characters in her book were people in her own hometown, a dusty little hamlet - Monroeville, Alabama.

Capote put Harper Lee in his first book OTHER VOICES; OTHER ROOMS.

That looks like a book that I would really like to read Ella. Thanks for posting about it here.

Monroeville is to this day still a dusty little town.

Joan Grimes

Ella, thank you for your post. Your review makes the book very interesting. It is on my library list. I can't remember. Did Harper Lee ever marry?

Ella--That biography of Harper Lee sounds like one I would like to read. She isn't the only novelist with just one book to write. Several I can think of wrote several novels, but really only had one to tell.

I'm on the reserve list for Mockingbird at our library. Don't know what my status is, though. I knew that Truman Capote was a childhood friend. He was the basis for the character of Dill in her book.

I agree that some people only have one book.. Think of Gone with the Wind.. A wonderful enduring book, but only the one was produced. And I also agree that some authors have one book in them and just write and rewrite the book over and over. I will make a note of this one because I have always loved Mockingbird.

I've been very busy with my eclectic reading here in NY State, while on vacation. I've picked up The Portrait of Dorian Gray, once again. I love Oscar Wilde. I've read The Myth of You and Me, Breakdown Lane, Poes Murders at the Rue Morgue, Stephanie Plums Twelve Sharp, the Death of Vishnu and Daughter's Keeper.

tomorrow we will be leaving for the "Montreal Bash" and I am taking Poe's Shadow, by Matthew Pearle with me. Joan P. will open the discussion on that book in September. Come in and join us.

Stay COOL!

I loved "Gone with the Wind" by Margaret Mitchell. I read it as a young girl during a hot summer. I have always wanted to read it again. I don't think Margaret Mitchell could have topped that book.

We just can't let them go. and WIND, and MOCKING BIRD are a couple. I usually don't re-read because I've go so many more to gobbleup, down whatever. Currently reading DAY AFTER TOMORROW, a thriller.Very very very. Can't put it down. as to the author, will have to look again. terrible with names.

No steamy novel however graphic could top Rhett carrying his love up the winding staircase in "Gone with the Wind". My mum and I say you do not need to have graphic details in a book. She says its much better left to the imagination. I agree.

Carolyn

Carolyn, oh, that staircase. Who can forget it?

How about the part where Rhett let Scarlett out of a wagon to walk on to Tara when he was leaving to join the blockade/or forces? I'll never forget the kiss he gave her and how she felt the brass buttons on his coat as they embraced. She nearly swooned (and so did I). Sue

I loved the kiss. I think the saddest part is when Bonnie Blue dies. Rhett won't allow her to be buried. He stays in the room with her until Melanie comes and talks to him. He loved Bonnie Blue so much. Everytime I see that part I cry.

Any feelings about "Scarlett" which was written by another author? I haven't read it. I have forgotten the author's name.

Good Afternoon everyone. This is my first time here even though I have been around SN since 1996. I have stopped by over the years but time was always precious and it seems the years have floated by while I have sat and enjoyed books covering a wide variety of subjects, both fiction and non fiction. For 40 years I had to read the newspapers every day to keep up on sports and business and when I retired I put away my briefcase, gave away all my suits and walking shoes and let the free spirit within me walk barefoot in the sand and watch the clouds make pictures in the sky.

My world has always been books and my quest for learning has never been satisfied. Now that I've said all that and I've maxed out my B&N account for the month and my Amazon shipment has arrived I can rest easy for the rest of the month. But that is not why I came here today. I came here to profain the name of Target and Wal-Mart and their book selling or rather their lack of book selling.

I just got off the phone with the manager of the local Target Super Store here in Mesa AZ. (Wal-Mart got it before Christmas and I have not been back since.) I asked him why his store has not carried three books that have been on the New York Times Best Seller list over the past few months? He said, and I quote, "We always have the top 10 books from the New York Times" and I said, "Well sir, I beg to differ with you, you have not carried the three authors I just told you about and since Christmas you have not carried any book on your book shelf that reflects any conservative view point on religion, politics, economics and sir, they have all been on the New York Times Best Seller list and are well know authors from FOX News and main stream newspapers throughout America. I said, "Sir I've complained about this before and Target has done nothing, and he said, "I'll call my distributor and find out why." I said, "Thank you sir I am now going to a web site and tell them about Target so they too can hear what you do not carry."

I feel much better now and hope none of you take offense. I feel that when only one side of a subject is covered than we no longer live in a free society and if they only sold the conservative side I would have made the same phone call-- I feel like Harry Truman. when he said, "The Buck stops here." I am responsible for what is out there and fighting for a fair playing field goes both ways.

Footnote: I went there to buy Frank McCourt's new book which is still there and I'll get it from B&N or Amazon.

I read the follow up book to GWTW, can't remember the author, something Alexander or Alexandra, I think. It was OK for a light romance, but nowhere near Margaret Mittchel's book. Sue

Sue, that's what I figured. I would rather read Margaret Mitchell a second time. Now that I am older I would probably really enjoy it. I would focus more on the Civil War and the strains it caused between the North and South.

I think her name is Alexandra Ripley or something like that.

It is probably not politically correct any more to love these two books these days but as a child I shed many tears over two books. One was "Uncle Toms Cabin" and the other was "The Lamplighter". I bought "Uncle Toms Cabin" from Barnes and Noble about three years ago as I wanted my grandaughters to read it when they were old enough.

I heard about a great book this morning written by a South African doctor who has spent the last fifteen years working as a doctor and a surgeon in theatres of war all around the world. What he says about Iraq is disturbing. He has worked both in the first Gulf war and the current war. He is Jewish incidentally. I must find the title and buy it. Its published by McMillan in hard back and I think the authors name was Johnathon Kaplan. I listened to an in depth interview with this Jewish man and was full of hope when he finished that there is some rationality in this world after all.

kiwi lady, is this the book? Contact Wounds: A War Surgeon's Education (Hardcover) by Jonathan Kaplan "Life's passage is peaceful only for the fortunate..." (more)

Yes Delphine that is the book. The writer was a most interesting and most compassionate man. It costs $49.95 here in NZ in hardback. I may need to wait til it hits paperback!

Carolyn

Carolyn, the list price in US is $25.00 and at www.amazon.com it sells for $16.50. The used price starts at $5.00. It is available in paperback too, list is $14 and www.amazon.com price is $10.78 and it available used in pb too.

Delphine if I get the paper back shipped by surface mail it will be much cheaper than the hard back here. I will look into it.

Carolyn

I can't think of Wind without remembering that Carol Burnett skit. Remember the drapery rod?

Just thinking about Carol Burnett and the dress made of drapes makes me laugh. That particular episode was a hoot!. Sue

Carolyn, you are right about being politically correct. I enjoyed "Gone with the Wind" as a teenager. At that time I focused on the romance between Rhett Butler and Scarlett O'hara. I didn't even know about the words "politically correct."

Wisdom or the loss of innocence, for me, came with age. Now, in this part of my life, I would not focus on romance. I would focus on the Civil War, American slavery, the wounded and dying in the war, etc.

Even as a young person, I did hate one particular scene in the movie. This is when Scarlett slapped Butterfly McQueen. To me it was a slap that could have been heard around the world.

Later, I discovered Hattie McDaniel was not invited to the premier performance of Gone with the Wind or Hattie McDaniel was not admitted in the theater with all of the other stars. I might have this fact wrong. I'm not sure.

I don't know whether it's unfortunate, for myself, I have never censored my reading unless it is pornography. I will not read or look at pornography. Not censoring my reading has allowed me to see more than one side of an argument, one side of an issue and to have an opinion that is not centered just around my little world.

I have read "Jubilee" by Margaret Walker, a great black novelist and poet. I have read "As I Lay Dying" by William Faulkner. I have read more than one book by Toni Morrison. By reading "The Known World" by Edward Jones, I had the chance to learn about slaves owning slaves. I have also read "Incident of a Slave Girl" by Harriet Jacobs. I have also read "The Diary of Anne Frank." I have read "Black Boy" by Richard Wright. I have read "Native Son" by Richard Wright.

I really doubt whether it is possible to be politically correct unless you open your mind to many sides of an issue while choosing what to read. I refuse to narrow what I read because of the color of my skin. I believe this is the legacy left to me by my parents. Without knowledge and education is it possible to be politically correct? I don't think so.

I am a proud black woman. I am not in need of finding my identity. I know my identity. I would not trade it for the world. If a person can only see my color and see it with hate, and not ever see my character, that is their problem. I am living my life just the way I want to live it. I am proud and strong and kind, I hope.

As far as Carol Burnett is concerned, I did see the show about the curtains. With her wonderful humor Carol Burnett, using that one scene, said a lot about the character of Scarlett O'hara. Carol Burnett is a lady who always tries to be politically correct. I read her autobiography. She lived through hard times growing up. Then, as a woman she lived through heart sorrow with her daughter.

When I went back to school, in my old age, to get a degree, I swallowed up all the literature courses I could get on my roster each semester. Yes, I enjoyed an African American Literary Studies course. I remember Professor R. reading "The Last Duchess" by Robert Browning. Oh, the way my professor read it just made me fall in love with the reading of poetry.

I have gotten totally off topic. I love to write. You don't have to read all of this tirade. I had a point in the beginning. I wanted to say to be politically correct comes with the freedom to be able to widen your world through reading.

I will save some words for tomorrow. My typewriter keys are now covered by my kitten's tail.

By the way I was introduced to "Not Waving but Drowning" by Stevie Smith when I returned to school. It yanked at my heart. I didn't remember it for a long time until Ginny brought up the word "waving" used in Frank McCourt's book. I went wild. If that wasn't seredipity, well, here is the website.

Not Waving but drowning

Have any of you read "The Boy Who Loved Anne Frank" by Ellen Feldman? It looks very interesting. And I do have a love for Canadian literature along with India and other countries.

Gone with the Wind premiered in Atlanta, Georgia in 1939. Hattie McDaniel would not have been invited to the premiere, although she actually told folks she could not attend to save everyone the embarrassment of having to invite her. She knew what racism was. Her father was a freed slave. When Clark Gable found out that Ms. McDaniel was not to attend because of racism he threatened to boycott the premiere. McDaniel did not allow him to do this. Whatever else anyone has to say about Gable he stood by his friends and McDaniel was a friend of his.

She was the first black person to be invited to the Academy Awards ceremony when she was nominated for the Oscar she eventually won.

Kleo

I've read some of your reading list i.e. Toni Morrison . * saved it in my books referral folder. You can solve something for me as to political correctness and even personal comfort.

As a secular Jew I find that I have preferences to be called various forms of that. so as an "African American" what is m most politically correct and comfortable for addressing you and others of ilk?

btw did you see my reference to IN THE CASTLE OF MY SKIN? a beautiful poetic book about "black???" kids in south africa.More than likely out of print. NAMES I'll look if anyone is interested.

Claire

Hi everyone,

I have not posted for quite a while (again)....just have been too busy with commuting, work, and gardening. My husband and I commute three hours a day and by the time I get home in the evening, I usually fall asleep if I sit down! I have really become addicted to reading everyone's posts at this site. I just need to sit down and join in more often.

Hats

I have gotten totally off topic. I love to write. You don't have to read all of this tirade. I had a point in the beginning. I wanted to say to be politically correct comes with the freedom to be able to widen your world through reading.

Hats -- You have the most eloquent way of writing what's on your mind. I love to read your posts whenever you get going. It is a wonderful gift you have.

I have missed Scootz...Does anyone know where she's been? I'm almost finished reading "The Memory Keeper's Daughter," which she recommended. It is one of the best books I've read in some time.

Carol

Hats - what you say is quite right. When I was a child I viewed Uncle Toms Cabin in a different light than I do now. However in saying this after talking to a young South African friend who was brought up by a black nanny and who loves her dearly I think that perhaps even in oppression the human spirit is more generous than the system under which it has had to survive. My friends family left South Africa but their nanny was left well provided for with a private income etc. They still keep in contact. This nanny gave two little children love in a difficult family situation. She was their rock.

Has anyone read any new novels they could recommend? I am finding it hard to get interested in any books I see on the stands lately. I have not been sufficiently interested to try any of them.

Carolyn

Carolyn, try The Virgin Knot, by Holly Payne. It's about life in a Turkish village.

I am sitting here pondering-- I am asking myself if what I may decide to say may or may not offend some. But my curosity never has stopped me before when there are times perhaps it should have.

I live in America therefore I am an American. My heritage is Irish and Polish and German. Do I say I am an Irish American, do I say I am a Polish American or do I say I am a German American? I say I am an American and I have bumper stickers to show it and tee shirts to annouce it.

Do people in England with ancestors from Ireland say they are Irish British? Do people who live in Italy with ancestory in Ireland say they are Irish Italians? Do people in Germany with a heritage in NZ say they are Zealand Germans? Do people who live in Australia with ancestors from Ireland say they are Irish Australians?

My grandchildren whose ancestors came from Mexico, Uganda, South Africa, Swaziland, Cherokee, Navajo, and Chile say they are Chile Americans? Uganda Americans? Mexican Americans? NO they do not. All of them are proud of their ancestory but they are Americans and nothing else.

My father set the example for all of us. We are Americans. When his generation of friends would point to his grand children and great grandchildren and call them names it was not the thing to do if you wanted to still be standing.

One, if not the most damaging, things we do in America is give everyone and every thing a label. We know from history that it only results in war here and around the world. Dr Martin Luther King said he had a dream, that dream was the same as my father's dream, my grandmother's dream, my dream and my childrens dream. That dream is that all peoples be free. Dr King, my dad, my grandmother, and they/I didn/t/won't live long enough to see that as long as we continue to label everyone and every thing.

I grew up Catholic and am still Catholic and I've lived in places where I was the only Catholic in the community and shunned because I was. I was fired by the Lt Governor of Minnesota because I was prolife. I was fired because I stood up for people who were gay in my department and my boss said it brought dishonor on his department because they were my friends. I walked the protest lines when people were not being treated fairly because of their color, their creed or their sexual choices. I crossed picket lines when people were denied the right to work or have a home.

I don't write with eloquet words like some. My world is simple and I treat people the way I want them to treat me. For a lot of things that I do every day I deal with people who are brain dead and nothing is ever going to change them or that. Too many of us are walking around on tiptoe because we might say or do something that will offend someone because of where their ancestors came from when that has nothing to do with the incident. I watch these clones of stupidity in Washington DC and on the national media and wonder if they live on the same planet I do. My answer is always the same-- "Stupid is as stupid does" Forest Gump.

If being 'politically correct' is about not giving offense, that's well enough. I certainly don't want to be offensive or hurt anyone. That used to be called courtesy and kindliness.

If it's about tiptoeing around persons who are bound and determined to take offense, loudly, over everything and nothing, then it's really tiresome.

If it's a matter of a demagogue claiming an offense in order to gain a poliical advantage or gain followers, then it becomes a liability we can ill afford.

My opinion.

Babi

My grands are NZ Maori and I am NZ Pakeha or European. If anyone wants to call themselves a Polish NZer or any other ethnic group I see nothing wrong with it. I see nothing wrong with being proud of ones heritage. I see nothing wrong with being a Pakeha ( white Nzer) If my Samoan neighbour was talking about me she may say I am a Palangi ( European/ white) I see nothing wrong with that. We are used to saying - The Samoan family across the road. The Chinese family down the road. The Maori family next door. What the heck is wrong with it? We are all still kiwis.

Hear, Hear Carolyn! I feel worse when people try formulas around me like "physically challenged" or some as ridiculous other oexpressions. What is wrong with calling a cat a cat as long as one does not try to be offensive? Being disabled, having polio, is a fact and not a sin! Although I manage quite well, I know and anyone else looking at me know that I don't have fully operative limbs. So what? One should look not at the labels but at the humans under them.

friendly, attractive intelligent charming . . .I wouldn't mind any of those. I think of a label as being purely descriptive. The intent with which it is used is what matters. . .Claire

Bubble near us we have a Dutch village, Its a retirement village but is also the hub of social activity for the Dutch community. They can speak their own language there too if they wish. My daughter went down on Saturday night to their community centre with Dutch and Polish friends. They had a whale of a time, all age groups including teenagers. It was a hat party and everyone had to wear a funny hat. Nicky loved the sense of close community they have. We could take a leaf out of their book. Nickys dutch friends bought a big block of land at a seaside resort about 10 years ago. They subdivided it and the entire huge extended family have beach cottages there. Nicky and her family spend time there also and love the social life they have. Its wholesome and fun. I think you can hold on to your heritage and share it with the friends you make in your adopted homeland.

Bubble I agree with you. I would rather be forthright myself about any disability than put it all under one umbrella. I can remember being embaressed when one of my children when they were very small went up to a man in a wheelchair and asked him what had happened to his legs. The man told me he was quite happy to talk about it to my child. When my husband was in a wheelchair he said he sometimes felt like a non person because nobody ever addressed him directly. I always ask if I can help shoppers who are in wheelchairs to reach goods on the higher shelves. I have noticed that people just pass them by.

Carolyn

are embarrassing to many people. And they don't always come in obvious ways. I'm treated differently than I was when I was young. Does that make being old a disability? Seriously I am disabled in that I have so many health problems etc. I asked my neighbor who came knocking on my door, vigorously to see if I was all right, if she'd pick up a flyer on my door step for me. It's hard for me to get down there some days. is that a disability. She hopped right to it. made me feel disabled watching her . . .it was so easy for her and it will never be that easy for me again. Aging is a disability I think. It just comes on slowly so we don't think of it that way.

I just thought of it that way because of this topic of wheel chairs. I can't get down to the lower shelves in stores and always ask for help for that?

hmmmm. guess what. I'm disabled. Claire

Claire: yes, aging can a sneaky disability! lol Some oldtimers are lucky and see no diminution of capabilities.

Bubble, it's good to see your post.

Clarie, I have been thinking about Roosevelt Franklin. For a long time while president he would stand or sit in such a way so that the public wouldn't see his disability. There is a book about him that covers just how he handled his disability while being president. I can't remember the title or author of the book. I know the cover of the book. I will try and find it in my library's card catalogue.

Sorry. I can't remember the cover either.

I did get Margaret Drabble's latest book, to continue an earlier conversation (welcome, Delphine), and it's a really strange one. It's called The Red Queen and is apparently about two centuries old court memoirs from a Crown Princess of Korea. It's billed as a "Transcultural Tragi Comedy," and Drabble has quite an apologia in the beginning, insisting it is not a work of "historical fiction," just a novel and that it's somewhat based on JaHyun Kim Haboush's edition of The Memoirs of Lady Hyegyong: The Autobiographical Writings of a Crown Princess of Eighteenth-Century Korea published in 1996.

Ok not only do I know absolutely nothing about Korea, I had no idea they HAD Crown Princesses and Drabble is somewhat insistent upon saying that Dr. Haboush, having been sent the manuscript, suggested changes, not all of which were made and Drabble says she understands why Dr. Haboush does not want to be associated with the book, that is, say the book is accurate (I assume). She says she does not wish to be associated.

So where does this leave the reader? Hahahaa

It's wonderfully written but it's hard to read one page without thinking, well, IS this true or is this Drabble?

Have any of you read either of these? I am thinking that it might be smarter to read the English translation of the original first and then whatever fancy Drabble has made of it in her novel?

I continue to want to discuss Drabble's Seven Sisters again in November, because, having just come from Cuma, which is the goal of the book (or is it?) I now doubly have no earthly idea what she is saying! I don't know, and the book is in English, what she means? This would be a first for us, too, in the Books, to redo an old discussion, and we seem to have 3 people here now who are willing to discuss it anew in November in connection with Tennyson's Lady of Shalott, are there any more out there who might like to read the Drabble along with the Lady (the Lady is online, the Seven Sisters is in paperback)??

I think Margaret Drabble would make a fabulous dinner guest, I sure would like to know what makes her tick, I can't tell from reading her books, that's for sure. Who would YOU invite to your own dinner table, living or dead (we have to assume the dead would revive just for your dinner party) from the world of literature??

Suppose for your dinner you could invite a total of 3 guests, but you need not have more than one, who would you like to talk to?

I think I'd like Margaret Drabble to see if I could understand her in person, and want to think about two more who would compliment and offset her, maybe Penelope Fitzgerald, they are both Englishwomen. Maybe Pearl Buck….still thinking…. Or would you have Elspeth Huxley? Or Helene Hanff….or? …Faulkner? Rowling? Shakespeare?

Dinner Guests.. a neat concept Ginny. First...tada.. Margaret Meade.. second ( I am not being racists, but I have forgotten her name). There was a black woman from Texas, very bright , beautiful speaking voice. She was a politician, but then developed a debilitating disease and retired.. Fascinating speaker and third: Agatha Christie because I bet she was fun.. So there.

Stephanie, Is she Barbara Jordan????

Ginny, I hear the word Korea on the news. I have no knowledge about that country. Often, we hear about China, Japan and their customs, not much about Korea.

I'd invite Nevil Shute, Olivia Butler and Arthur Clarke. They are so different but have the same liberal outlook on people, I would be interested to hear how they interact.

I am still thinking. I like the question. It puts my brain cells to work.

Barbara Jordan was the lady I immediately thought of, too, HATS. She did have such a beautiful voice, and was a very popular speaker.

Ginny's idea reminds me of that old TV show,..was it "You Are There". An actual historical event was portrayed, with the historical characters involved speaking and acting as they might have been expected to, based on their known views. It was a very lively and interesting show.

Babi

Babi, I really loved Barbara Jordan too. When Stephanie wrote Texas, she came to my mind first. Yep, I love Ginny's question.

My answer disappeared. Here it is again: Booker T. Washington, Harriet Tubman and Charlotte Bronte.

Does anybody remember a late Steve Allen show called Meeting of the Minds? He (as himself) would sit at a table and talk to historical figures, played in character and dress, by contemporary actors. Often his wife, Jayne Meadows, would be one of the female characters (such as Elizabeth I). They were fascinating. I'll check IMDb and see what I can find anything.

Edit: The only thing I can find there is a movie by that name. I'll keep looking.

Edit again: Here's something I found later on IMDb... Steve Allen's Meeting of the Minds

Now that I have met Miguel De Cervantes, I would love to have him to dinner. He would bring a sense of humor and adventure. I guess there aren't enough seats at the table or food and drinks.

Mary Z, I do remember that show, I think.

I would need to rent out the local gymnasium in order to have all the interesting people at my table that I would like to talk with. And they wouldn't always be people that I admire either. I'd love to talk to some of the dictators and villains of the world just to try to understand what makes them do what they do. Not that I ever could really understand, of course!

I mentioned the wrong person. I didn't want Booker T. Washington, no offense. I wanted George Washington Carver.

Phyll, I need a "local gymnasium too.

Who would you invite to dinner? Do they have to be authors or scholars? The reason I ask is that if they do not have to be writers then I'd want my Irish Great Grandmother, I'd want my Polish Princess who started my family, the fourth person, a good question and one I'll have to think about. It would have to be a historian, someone who would take the lives of my ancestors and moderate their experiences into truth not fiction.

I loved "Go Tell It on the Mountain' by James Baldwin.

Oh, I'd have Marie Curie, Molière, and Charles Darwin.

Carolyn, my son was 5 when we were in a bank and a man with prosthetic hooks on both lower arms came up behind us. My son screamed with delight, so that even people outside the bank turned and looked in, "Mom! Mom! That man has PIRATE ARMS!" My son and the man had a wonderful discussion about what one could do with pirate arms that one could not do with regular hands, including, I believe, clipping little boys' noses off. I was instinctively horrified by my son's behavior, but could not interfere because the man was obviously delighted by my child's straightforward inquisitiveness and ability to understand his deep rural Louisiana accent. Both my kindergartner and the senior gentleman left the bank walking taller.

Kleo

An old friend lost one of his big toes during WW II. He was at the swimming pool one day, and a little boy came up to him, looked at his foot, and then up, puzzled, at this quite tall man. The little boy said, "Sir, you've lost your big toe." Ross exclaimed, "NO! Did you see where it went?" And, with Ross's personality, I'm sure he and the boy had quite a laugh and discussion on it, too. Kleo, yours was a great story, too.

I love kids! My childless daughter Vanessa gets endless delight from conversing with her 9 yr old and five year old nieces. Its really amazing the topics that come up. I just love the fact that my grands are not precocious and yet they sometimes come out with such wise words. Their mother has done an amazing job of nurturing two kids who have no bias of any kind. I am proud of her and of them. These kids even understand why bullies are bullies and they have coped amazingly with would be bullies at school with absolutely no weapons but their tongues.

Carolyn

Have you ever wondered where authors come up with titles for their books? I saw a book the other day with this title and I loved it and wrote it down so I would not forget it. "Life Is Short, Wear Your Party Pants" by Loretta LaRoche. Isn't that a great title for a book? (I think it is a self-help book but the title alone helped me.)

I love it that title! I have one called "Cinnamon Kiss" by Walter Mosley. It's not a romance. It's a mystery.

and it's a bad eye day for me so I'm missing most of it. and then Ginny dear girl must you do light green. I"I'm either having to copy and past into a graphics program or work on the html in my fancy mail program or just skip it. how about dark green very dark green. . .

this is interesting I think and will result in a whole new group of sci fi offerings. from the new york times. the genome for neandertal man is being assembled and IF THEY BUILD IT. . .well you know they will use it. here is the last paragraph from the article Jan sent me.

"If the Neanderthal genome were fully recovered, it might in principle be possible to bring the species back from extinction by inserting the Neanderthal genome into a human egg and having volunteers bear Neanderthal infants. There would, however, be great technical and ethical barriers to any such venture. "

ethical barriers???not for long we seem to have vary elastic ethical values these days. . . .claire

Coming in late on a great discussion. I love Barbara Jordon too. She was the speaker at one of my children's graduation. Did you know she is very, very short. They had to find a stool for her to stand on so she could see over the podium. I guess we all have some sort of disability.

Was it Claire who said "even in oppression the human spirit is more generous than the system under which it has had to survive". That is so true. I get my knowledge of slavery mainly from reading Frederick Douglass's autobiography -- a wonderful book available both online and in inexpensive editions. I recommend it.

I was thinking of how he can describe with feeling both the unbearable cruelty of some slave owners, and the generosity of others, such as the White who risked prison to teach him how to read. He seems to have come through the experience without resorting to mass hatred and stereo typing.

My all time hero is Nelson Mandela. How I should like to talk to that man. A friend of mine was working in Parliament and got to shake hands with him some years ago. I have read his autobiography and enjoyed it very much. My all time inspirational speech is "I have a dream" We all know whose words those were! I used to have that speech pinned on my refrigerator. It can be applied to so much of life. My daughter has been to Robin Island and seen the cell where Mandela spent so many years of his life.

Carolyn

I was privledged to get a ticket to the White House lawn to see President Clinton greet Nelson Mandela as a head of state for the first time. The tears were falling down my face -- I couldn't believe it. The other people in the wheelchair section when they saw I was crying, pushed me up to the front row. I was just a few feet from him, as he walked along waving and shaking hands. I don't remember what he said in his speech, but I was terribly impressed by the simplicity and sincerity of it.

He is a hero to me, too. We had no idea then of the terrible disease that would cripple his country. What a tragedy.

We need another Nelson Mandela and another FW De Klerk in the Middle East. They were two men that worked together to save their country from disaster. It could well have been a blood bath but for those two men.

Carolyn

JoanK, I love Frederick Douglass' slave narrative. That is a great book and a great man. Wow! I would love to meet Nelson Mandela. He is another great man.

Carolyn, I loved Anwar Sadat too. He wanted peace very badly. This is why those men assassinated him.

Anyone read Jehan Sadat's book: A woman of Egypt?

http://www.wic.org/bio/jsadat.htm

Oh, I would love to read it. Bubble, thank you for the link. I will put it on my library list.

Ginny, there is a book titled "Ella Minnow Pea" by Mark Dunn. It seems like a fun book. Could we consider it for a discussion one day?

Ella Minnow Pea

I am guessing other Seniors have already read this book. I would like to hear their thoughts about the book.

Barbara Jordan.. thanks to all for jogging my ailing memory. I loved to listen to her.. Was so sorry when she became ill and gave up political life. She would have been a great President or Supreme Court Justice.. Wise, compassionate and witty, a truly great woman.Like the rest, I want to talk to a lot of people, but do agree that three would be manageable,, make for easy conversation, etc.

All right Claire, I'm trying 004400, just for you, takes longer to type than the word green, let me know?

Hats, where DO you find these things? What a premise, have never seen anything like it? Just the thing for a slow month, of course we can consider it or any other book, and here they say there ARE no new plots!!!! They are wrong: somebody is VERY imaginative, I love that!!!

Yes, the dinner guests do have to be from the world of literature, hahaa, as this is a books and literature discussion, but I think most of the famous people named have written some sort of memoir or book, so that's good.

I think I'll revolve out my third guest and add Homer. Wouldn't you love to really know where he got his myths? Supposedly he invented the gods, he and Hesiod, the Greek gods, having just tromped over ancient (and tromped is the word) Mycenae and Knossos, have a feeling he did not, he repeated the old stories.

Homer wrote in 700 BC about the fall of Troy in 1250 BC and of course as we all know, all that was thought to be myth. Then Heinrich Schliemann, who was not a trained archaeologist but a literary enthusiast, found not one, but 10 Troys using Homer, and (I'd like to talk to him, too, he wrote a couple of great books) now they find thru DNA that some early Etruscans seem to be of Turkish origin, which of course has thrown the world into a tizzy: "DID Aeneas, then really found Rome? Maybe it's not a myth?"

Stanley Lombardo has a new set of audio tapes of his Aeneid out as well as a new translation, the publishers have sent SeniorNet notice of these absolutely fabulous looking audio tapes, because we read his Iliad here, Joan K and Pat H will remember, over a long period of time with his comments to the group. Not very many people read The Aeneid, they read Homer's Odyssey first, think they know Homer's Iliad (since the Brad Pitt movie Troy a lot of people have read The Iliad, tho) but nobody has read The Aeneid. The Aeneid is the one with the references, for instance, to the Trojan Horse, only somewhat alluded to otherwise.

I bet none of us here could even think of one episode in it, but I bet everybody knows what Troy is and who the Cyclops is. Makes you kind of want to complete the cycle there. Different author, of course, Vergil wrote The Aeneid and for a reason but there are a lot of references in it that you'd recognize today.

Anyway…just nattering here with news of his new audio tapes and he's a performer like Homer, and they are, by all accounts, VERY dramatic, I love to hear him read.

I bought The Second Assistant, which I guess is another light chick lit book, but apprently it's a continuation of The First Assistant (DUH) so now I am behind on that one too. Couldn't get 2 pages into Beach Road, a Patterson, mysteries are getting too graphic for me.

I've ordered the original court memoirs to see if they are even readable even in translation, sometimes the closest to the original you can get is the best. I do so admire those who can bring the ancients of any culture alive for us.

Meanwhile those who thought they'd enjoy a book from the ship's library on the...which Princess cruise ship was it which rolled 15 degrees Wednesday was it? Can you IMAGINE? Shades of the Poseidon Adventure and the Titanic. I am glad nobody was killed. Heck of a way to go, sitting by yourself at peace and luxury with your book and your deck chair and the doggone thing rolls 15 degrees!!!!!!!!!!! whew!

Think of the kitchens!! I hope nobody got scalded, it's a miracle nobody went overboard.

Claire, I hate to disagree. I prefer the prettier green used by Ginny. This green, above, makes me feel sad. It's sooo dreary.

I did see that on the news about the ship. I immediately thought of Poseidon.

For some reason green is a hard color to read on the monitor I am using now. This new green is unpleasant and wrinkles the monitor in my vision, the other green is just unpleasant. Green doesn't bother me on my other monitors, but it is very tough to read on this one.

Kleo

hahaha OK so much for 004400 now the original message 008800, is it drab, here I'll do it now I'm a green person, sorry. That's 9 characters instead of typing the word green.

You can fix your own IE to display the colors you prefer on any website, Everybody, check with the computer Q&A guys and they will be happy to assist you personally.

Well, darn, Hats - our library doesn't have Ella Minnow Pea. That does sound delightful.

I know! Mary Z, I bought it used. "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog." Can you believe all twenty-six letters of the alphabet are in that one sentence???? Then, throughout the book, I think, the letters fall away or off and the people of the island can use only what is available. If they disobey, the people are penalized. That's what I understand about it.

I am surprised our library doesn't have it.

I appreciate your efforts 0088 is a little darker Hmm each number is part of r g b or red green blue so I added a little blue. lets see what happens

like this. let's see what it looks like now. . . that's with just the word green in the font command

Yep that works for me. so ginny how bout being BOLD it makes a big difference here and is almost as easy.

In fact if there are others with visual problems they and I would appreciate bold type thru-out. It would be nice if senior net made the adjustment but what the hey. if you don't know how it goes like this only use these brackets <> instead of the parenthesis )b)

ginny I don't have I.E. I am on a mac and use SAFARI. it may have that function but I haven't seen any sign of it yet.

thanks for your consideration. . . claire

Hats - I took typing in high school, and was a secretary/transcriptionist for many years. Any typist knows about The Quick Brown Fox... I've ordered the book used, too - should be here in a couple of days. And then I'll pass it along to family and friends who will love it. BTW, your house must be crammed with your to-be-read books - as is mine, of course.

I'll chime in with Claire - Ginny, the green is pretty, but the lack of contrast between that and the white "page" is what makes it difficult for me to read.

and your referrals are piling up. I copy the page and paste it into a special file for referrals to check out at leisure. that includes the person referring as well as the information on the book. . ..nice to have.

Mary Z, I took typing and shorthand. I don't remember "The Quick Brown Fox...." Of course, my memory is unreliable. I do remember the homerow thingie, a;sldlfjgh and then, back again. Typing stays with you just like driving stays with you, I think. My homerow thing might not come out right. I have typed for so long. I can't remember what or how I learned typing. I am just glad to know how to type without looking down at the keys.

It use to be very important for a girl to know how to type. I started typing on typewriters in high school.

What is "Ella Minnow Pea?"

DelphineAz It's a book by Mark Dunn.

Ella Minnow Pea

Hats, another sentence used as a generic sentence for typing was "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their party." But that one doesn't have all the letters of the alphabet like "Quick brown fox". I'm with you on the typing - it's a great skill to have. Plus those of us who learned on manual typewriters (ugh!) know how to hold our hands, and we don't get carpal tunnel syndrome.

Just bought the book from ebay. Thanks. I know I will like the book

Years ago a friend of mine met me at a book store in downtown Minneapolis (1982). I was looking at different books and she said, "you just have to read this book because you like books with plays on words". The book was by Piers Anthony and it was called "Ogre, Ogre". It was a hoot. In the book the Ogre has been thrown out of the Ogre village because he does not like to eat young girls but prefers to eat rotten fruit. He is walking through the forest and he is attacked by an IQ fine and as he tries to pull the IQ vine off his head he wonders why he is trying to do this as Orge and cannot think they are Ogres after all. He then spots foot prints on the path through the forest and he cannot figure out why he is following them and and this too is against what Ogre do as they don't think. He wonders why the foot prints disappear into the ocean and what kind of creature would walk through the forest and then into the ocean and again, this too, is against what Ogres can do. He looks out onto the ocean and sees the water gushing and he then figures out that the prints he followed through the forest are, the prints of whales'. Loved Anthony's play on words and his fantasy series call Zanth.

DELPHINE, just wanted to say I like your idea about meeting and talking with some of our own ancestors. I would really enjoy that.

But I wouldn't at all like a gymnasium full of people! How would I ever get to talk to them all, and how could I hear them with all that noise?! Three or four at a time is just right for a lively discussion, and everyone can get comfortable.

For an interesting group, how about..let's see..how about Mark Twain, Jane Austen, Jules Verne and Mary Ann Evans?

Babi

Mary Z, that's the one I remember, "Now is the time...." You are right. It doesn't have all the letters. I would like to have an old manual or electric typewriter. Those bring back memories. Now people learn to type on the computer.

Babi, I thought about Jane Austen. Maybe I need to uninvite my invited guests. I need to give more thought to the question. Planning a dinner party for literary figures dead or alive is not so easy.

Delphine, Ogre, Ogre sounds like a good book too. Thanks for the title. My library owns a copy. I am glad you mentioned the title.

Hats, I doubt that I could type much on a manual. I still have most of my speed, but not the strength required to push those keys down.

The bold isn't so bad. Sorry, Ginny, ain't gonna change all my browsers just to read green posts on bulletin boards. Everyone else's posts are just fine. And green seems to be the only regular color (well, everyone knows the yellow problem) that bothers a number of people, and others have posted with this problem, no matter how small the number.

Kleo

I am sorry that some of you have had a problem seeing the green ink, thank you winsum for trying to suggest other colors or bold I might use in my posts. Quite a few people here on SeniorNet use shades of green in their posts.

I will TRY to remember to use a different color here. Should I forget and use the wrong color in this particular discussion, just please scroll by it rather than cause eyestrain; it won't offend me in the least.

Sounds like a plan to me, Ginny!

I came in here to say that we've just had a fantastic donation from the PEN/Faulkner Award Foundation in Washington DC to our Prison Library Project, the first two boxes were just opened today, and if you would like to see the books which were submitted (I always think those competing for anything are as interesting as the winners) for that award in 2006, you might want to come over to that discussion and share in the excitement as the boxes are unwrapped. One of the first ones in the bunch was a book by an Iraqi female poet and it looks wonderful, it won a PEN/ Translation award if I have that title right, and I have never heard of it.

There are 18 boxes of wonderful brand new books there donated again this year to go to the prisons of South Carolina, and all that came from one Books discussion with Wally Lamb several years ago and the help of a great number of people. I think there were more than 4,300 books donated before this huge shipment, and a lot of them are from members of this website and our own Books Family here, it's a very good thing.

In fact the Prison Library Project and the Book Exchange are running neck and neck in books moving from the homes of SeniorNetters to other homes in real time or our project, and it just hit me today that together those books now already total more than 8,000 books in real time in the real world!! 8,000 books!

THAT is an incredible thing!! And a tangible result of generosity from an internet website, and something we've done here together, entirely by volunteer power working collaboratively. And there is more on the horizon, too, more coming, always something new and exciting in the Books on SeniorNet.

When you combine those statistics with the fantastic book discussions and opportunities SeniorNet Books has offered, entirely again through collaboration and a wonderful group of readers and contributors, for 10 years without a pause, the trips, the games, the Gatherings, the celebrity authors who have generously donated so much of their time to us, the National Book Festival appearances, the Reader's Guides we write, and the general community we have here on SeniorNet's Books. the result is an incredible and to me, unique, place for readers.

I am really proud of our Books & Literature sections on SeniorNet, here on the eve of our 10th Anniversary, the volunteers, the readers, and everybody who has helped in any way, no matter how small or large, or of how long a duration, to make it what it is today. I personally think there is Nothing Like it in the World, something we can all be proud to be part of, and it does not hurt occasionally to remind ourselves of some of this. We'll probably do more as we get closer to Ocbober tho our Anniversary is really in September, and we began taking nominations and discussing them for our first book, Snow Falling on Cedars, August 1 of 1996, so we're about a week off the actual starting date.

Can YOU remember your very first book discussion with us or the first time you ever posted?

I remember my first time posting as if it were yesterday. I recall being scared to death and trying to sound intelligent, hahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa so much for that, huh? hahaaaaaaaaaaaa

I've been thinking of you, Bubble, when I watch the TV news and read about the problems in the Mid East. Do you live in Israel? I seem to remember that from a long ago post in another discussion here at SN. I do hope that you are safe from harm. Take care of yourself. Sue

I can't remember when I first joined in the discussions. I do however remember my delight in finding fellow bookies! I had such kindness too. I have books sent to me from the US so I could join in discussions and each one is faithfully marked with the date and who gave it to me. One of the prized ones is from the late Lorrie who I still miss terribly. My kids were so amazed that I received these gifts. I have had paintings sent to me ( 2) I have had a box of gluten free pasta sent to me from someone in one of my health forums. Trevor sent me a cheque to have one of my feral cats speyed. The kindness of cyber pals has been amazing. The best thing that has ever happened to me was the day I got my internet connection. I have been truly blessed with getting to know so many wonderful people. There is no way in the every day world I would get to know such a wonderfully diverse group of people.

When I first began friendships on the net my kids were alarmed thinking I would be murdered in my bed! Now they take it for granted.

Every time I hear some expert spout on about internet friendships are not genuine or real I want to scream "What about Senior Net!"

carolyn

Senior Net. I have been on it a long time now and truthfully cannot remember my first post. But I do remember how thrilled I was to have a place to discuss books. It is so lonely without having someone to talk about your reading. When I had the used bookstore, I had the customers, which worked well. But Senior net is 100% better, since I use a good many of the forums besides Books..

Senior Net is indeed wonderful. The red seems to work much better, ginny - at least for me. Thanks for trying another color besides your preferred green. I always hated having to skip your posts.

Carolyn, that is absolutely beautiful! You should write for publication, your posts in Teacher Man about Brooke's school are so evocative, and you point out here some of the unsung kindnesses and the personal connections that go on in the Books all the time in real life, as well as online. That was so beautiful! Thank you for that one.

I decided to drop the colors entirely this morning, Carolyn's post is colorful enough for a rainbow, it's a rainbow of joy. Love it.

I hope Bubble is all right too, we forget this is truly an international site, it looks very serious there, hope you are all right Bubble!

I read an article yeterday saying that this is the Summer of NO Good Beach Book, I am not sure I agree, what do YOU think? What's the best summer book you have read or are reading so far? Stephanie was right about the Lincoln and Childs, tho, (when is she not) and I could not get two pages into the James Patterson Beach Road, so those were a wash out for me, don't you long to find the perfect book that you can't put down? Isn't it awful, that pause between drowning yourself in a book? That Inbetween Gap?

I'd like to read the one Hats found, the one with the clever premise.

But the buzz is high for Heat, by Bill Buford and just try to find THAT one in a B&N by description! hahaha It's about a man, a writer, who apprentices himself in the kitchen of Babbo, the restaurant run by Mario Batali, and about the....what would you call it...the zen of cooking. How he went to Batali's mentor in Italy in the small town of Betta and was not allowed to even touch one ingredient for 10 days.

The zen of cooking, like the zen of fine wines, has always eluded me. Are you all into cooking?

Meanwhile I have started an interesting book called The House by Teresa Waugh, which sounds super. I thought it might make a nominee for our Houseboat series. The author of Gosford Park says of it it's "Wonderfully complicated, funny and moving," and the reviews are really super. It's on two levels, told through the letters and diaries of 4 of the 6 main characters, and one reviewer called it a "celebration," and another said it was "written with wining and warming affection...frothy and unexpectedly emotionally powerful."

She was married to Auberon Waugh, so I don't know what connection she might be to Evelyn, does anybody?

Sounds just the thing for a hot summer day in the shade: watching others work! It's about a man who inherits a crumbling old mansion, Cranfield, in England at the end of WWII, (this was written in the 40's but just reprinted in paperback in 2002 ) and his efforts to restore it to its former glory in spite of the cast of weird characters and some hidden family letters.

I've always been fascinated by those gigantic English country houses, they seem so romantic, and the effort it takes to keep them up. The bookstore where I bought it recommended it highly, so will give it a try, even though it's hardly new, and not very cheap for a paperback, 13,30 Euros.

So I am going to be vicariously restoring a grand mansion in England for a while, since we're leaving Limerick and the NYC schools and McCourt in a week, what are YOU reading that is really good? I have ordered the Haboush translation of The Memoirs of Lady Hyegyong: the Autobiographical Writings of a Crown Princess of Eighteenth-Century Korea because I would like to read it first and see what really happened before Drabble's award winning The Red Queen.

The first post I ever made on SeniorNet was about EF Benson, I remember asking where we might discuss him, and so in sort of commemoration, I guess, I am rereading him now, he's just as good as he ever was. It appears, however, that I need a new book, am in the 4th one in the series and when I pick it up the pages scatter all over the bed. hahaaa I spend most of my "reading" time looking for the next page. Who needs covers, I've got EF Benson hahaaa. I guess it's time to get a new one? (Gives new meaning to the phrase "covered up in reading," huh? hahaaa

The problem with a good book is it ends too soon and with a bad book that it seems it never ends. You are supposed to give it your age, that is give it the number of years you have lived, in pages, before you give up on it. I don't make that long, do you?

Sort of like participating in a book discussion, you need to give it a chance to live and change with every post, and grow. Each book discussion here is different, and each comes alive, and staying till the very end, making that commitment, really pays off in the long run, for everybody.

What are you vicariously enjoying thru the world of books this hot hot summer?

Mary we were posting together, I'm just going to leave the colors off, I appreciate those kind words, and you!

One thing I really hate is missing posts. If I had not decided to just double check by hitting Printer Friendly in the top right hand of this page I would have missed Stephanie's fine post, I especially liked this, ". But I do remember how thrilled I was to have a place to discuss books. It is so lonely without having someone to talk about your reading."

Since the act of reading is normally a solitary pursuit, your post really hits the mark: it's such a good thing and has really developed and taken on an entity and life of its own over the years, thanks to you all.

and I enjoyed your post.

About the English great houses. you might enjoy Phillipa Gregory's WIDEACREr series of three large historic romantic novels. She's great on detail and history, got her PHd in it, specializes and writes well. Also the Bolyne novels about THE OTHER BOLYN GIRL or Mary, Ann's sister and then Ann herself and finally Elizabeth . . .Claire

Summer reads, I have been gobbling up Maeve Binchy and Rosamunde Pilcher, both of whom are new to me. Also reading the See book, right now it is the foot binding. Horrible. Two years! Just finished reading The Man Who Loved Jane Austen, a sort of romance novel. Very light reading. I've started dozens of book and can't stick with them for one reason or another. Haven't read Sci-Fi in ages, nor any mysteries recently except Baldacci.

his first THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW a page turner I did in two days almost six hundred pages. He is good at suspense. sets the reader up well and then shocks with unexpected action. there is a lot of violence but somehow it doesn't offend. He doesn't wallow in it. His books are long and spell binding with much self talk or thinking out loud. . . .claire

Wow, a lot of posts here and I hope I haven't missed entirely the discussion of phonics, look-say, etc. Fascinating.

Kleo says "A lot of children aren't ready to read until they're at least 6 years old." I agree with your comments about readiness. My grandmother kept her seven children out of school until they were 7 years old. (No kinder in those days.) She said their little eyes aren't ready. Later they all skipped a grade. I have often wondered what happened to the "ungraded primary." It sounded like such a good idea, but one doesn't hear about it any more.

Pat West - don't get me going on teachers and social security. I don't have enough quarters, so I don't get it. Just the pension. But Missouri is one of seven states (who knows why) that withholds something like 40% of the SS that many of the teachers have paid into and are eligible for. One teacher friend has run a painting concern for years, paying SS for his workers and himself. A widowed friend thought she would be able to get half her husband's SS along with her pension. No way.

My kids have never had trouble with math, and I give the credit to my mother for teaching them place value. She used real money -- pennies, dimes, dollars. How many tens in 35 cents? How many ones in 13? If they got the right answer, they got the money.

I'm back here on post 108 and you are no doubt talking about lots of other stuff. I'd better post, and then go look at the archive for Seven SIsters. All I remember is they were following the path of the Aeneid. Surely they didn't eat sea urchins.

Ah, pedln, yet your state probably uses taxpayer dollars to build mufti-million dollar sports arenas for professional athletes who make millions of dollars a year AND they get to keep 100% of their social security. Then we wonder how the schools could be doing poorly when we don't value the custodians of our children's education more than a basketball player/rapist/thug.

Oh, a little spell-check fun, the SeniorNet Spell Checking suggests I use mufti-million instead of multi-million. I guess if it's for athletes out of uniform....

Ginny, in spite of the fact that the green is bothersome on some computer monitors it is handy, imo, to have some folks who regularly use colors because it breaks up the posts nicely.

Kleo

I suppose If I see purple I know it's Bubbles and she always makes it BOLD too.It is very easy to read though. any color works better in BOLD. I have enough trouble just staying ahead of the spell check or even using it some times. they do have creative notions. Claire Let's see what this on looks likenot bad but better in bold

Please .... My name is just Bubble - one Bubble only.

Thank you Claire

I'm happy to see you posting, Bubble, and am assuming you are safe. I surely hope so. Sue

Thanks Sue, I am in a relatively safe town, as long as they don't start shooting their long-range missile. I do believe I was born under a lucky star, so I don't worry for myself; you shouldn't either. I'll be OK Bubble

Glad to hear from you, Bubble, and know that you're safe.

Thanks for your consideration, Ginny - I read every word!

Colette, Alf, Robby, Eloise, Pat W, me and all the others took a tour of old Montreal and the river had lovely dinner on the boat.Yesterday went to Quebec. Having a good time but you are not forgotten

.

Bubble, Glad to hear your ok as been watching the news and wondering about you.

Ginger

The Montreal Bash is going along great. Robby and I had a great discussion last night. There are several here from books. See Ginger's post above.

My SD card (in my camera) went on the 'blink' and most of my pictures are terrible.

Folks were asking about Bubble last night. Good to hear she is safe.

Greetings to Montreal! I just hope that the city can handle all the SeniorNetters - they are quite a rowdy bunch, you know. Have fun!

Pat and Ginger it is so good to hear from you. I miss you all so much. I really wish I could have gotten there but it was just not to be I guess.

Pat I am so sorry about your photos. I was really counting on them since I could not get there to take my own.

Pleae give everyone my regards and tell them I sure wish I was there with you all.

Love,

Joan Grimes

I hope all of you are having a blast in Montreal. I love that city and love Canada. Especially in the summer.. Living in Florida, any cool breeze at all would be great. Bubble.. knowing you are OK is great. I think I would hate living in a country where they are shooting at you, but then I am a pacifist and that makes guns beyond belief strange to me. I have been tracking down older books by some new authors to me. I belong to a paperback exchange and to my joy, they have a lot of older stuff.

Hi Stephanie,

I am reading "My life in France"by Julia Childs and loving it. Wanted to thank you for suggesting it. I am not sure I would have read it if you had not mentioned how much you enjoyed it.

Thanks,

Joan Grimes

What old/ new authors are you hunting, Stephanie?

I stopped reading for the time being because I cannot concentrate even on the lighter tales. This is so untypical of me. I do listen to a lot of music instead and took to embroider bookmarks again. It keeps my hands busy and does not require much thinking. Bubble

Bubble that happens to me sometimes I lose concentration. My problem is due to the autoimmune disease its called brain fog. However you may not really realise it but things are so tense over where you are it is not uncommon when under stress to lose concentration. We will all hope things will settle down really quickly.

Carolyn

For Ruth Rendell fans she has a new one "End in Tears". Good review in the NYT books section. (I get the email about books from NYT on line - you sign up for it) This one is quite a social statement according to the reviewer.

Carolyn

The Exile by Allan Folsom continues with intrigue and violence and me with the fan and the spritze bottle. . .I used eye power in here to day will have to save some up for the book.

Have old smooth pop stuff playing right now. nice piano renditions of things like ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE oN a playlist with iTunes. very soothing.

seeya, claire

my little computer speakers do a pretty good job. too much base. but then that's the part I hear best. . .

this tune makes me sad it's so much wishful thinking. do you remember the words I know most of them

followed by fire and rain. all just piano solos. . . so nice. . .claire

Does anybody else watch Book TV on C-Span2 on the weekends? I don't always watch, but I do check the web site to see what's going to be on.

Anyhow, yesterday I caught the tail end of an interview with Simon Schama about his book called Rough Crossing. It's about the slave trade. It's about an hour long and is on again tonight frm 6-7 and 9-10 p.m. ET. He's an interesting man and a good interview.

JoanG, I'm so sorry you did not get to go to Montreal, and Pat, a shame about the camera. Nothing swallowed a part I hope.

Greetings to all the rest of you Montrealers. It sounds like you're having a wonderful time.

Carolyn, thanks for the Ruth Rendell tip-off. I haven't read a lot of hers, but have enjoyed the ones I have. I'll check that review, I get those emails too. Except I'll have to read them on my laptop until I get hold of my ISP. The password and user ID on my desktop got corrupted somehow and I can't access the Internet from there. No problem with the laptop. Go figure.

I'm finishing up TEacher Man, and have been reading the Agatha Christies that go with the PBS Marple series. One has followed the book pretty closely and one just massacred it. The last one is tonight and it sounds like it may be quite a bit different too. During my wakeful nights I've been reading light -- just finished a Parker/Spencer mystery -- School Days. Enjoyable, but I figured out the ending before it ended.

Bubble, glad to hear you are safe. Sure can understand about the concentration.

not specifically chosen although usually stay when Iim there. c-span one and two regular here for the congressional action.. .claire

BUBBLE: I understand completely about not being able to read. Under recent stress, I lost my interest in reading, and am slowly getting it back. I'm used to gulping down three or four books at once, or being able to read one for hours at a time. Now, after I read a short while, I have to take a break. Instead of being in my usual ridiculous dozen discussions, I've had to drop down to a few. But my reading seems to be coming back.

You are right JoanK, even discussions seem to require an effort. It will all come back, I am sure. It probably is the way the mind protects itself to stay sane.

Tension is always a difficult matter. I find that walking relaxes me, so when life gets complicated, I take to the trail. I also find that if reading gets hard, I generally go to changing the types of books. Once I even read a five book series written for early teens in the fantasy line. Helped to get away from having to concentrate. Just now my old author line is: Dianne Day ( Does a San Francisco Series on a Fremont Jones.. Joanne Dobson, a series on a woman professor, always involving something literary and Marianne MacDonald, who writes about an English rare book owner of a shop, named Dido.. All three are excellent authors and I have not read all of their stuff, so have been surfing around for it.

Here's something I came across this morning that interests me.

" 'IT IS WITH REGRET that I see, instead of an orderly and strict mathematical epic poem in honor of the One State-I see some kind of fantastic adventure novel emerging from me.' So laments D-503, mathematician and rocket designer, halfway through Russian writer Yevgeny Zamyatin's dystopian novel We. Completed in 1921, but not published in Russia until 1988, half a century after Zamyatin's death, it appears this month from the Modern Library in a new English translation by Natasha Randall.

"Zamyatin's vision of a totally controlled society, one in which unresisting citizens eat, sleep, work, and make love like clockwork-and in which thinkers and writers sing the glories of 'the morning buzz of electric toothbrushes and . . . the intimate peal of the crystal-sparkling latrine'-was considered too dangerously satirical by the early Soviet state, and it was smuggled abroad in samizdat form. Written a decade before Aldous Huxley's '`Brave New World,' its influence can be seen in George Orwell's '1984'. and it has been hailed as a warning of the totalitarian dangers inherent in every utopian scheme. (Orwell, who believed Huxley had read We, wrote in 1946, three years before '1984' was published, that Zamyatin's 'intuitive grasp of the irrational side of totalitarianism-human sacrifice, cruelty as an end in itself,' made the novel 'superior to Huxley's.')"

WE by Yevgeny Zamyatin

I am trying to change my screenname here to Cathie.I went to problems but the posted solution did not work. If anyone can help me with that, I sure would appreciate it. Until then, please could you begin referring to me by my name- Cathie, no more Scootz. . Thanks in advance.

Just change your name in preference and click OK.. It worked that way for me when I changed mine.

Cathie, after you make your changes, you have to scroll down again to the bottom of the page which comes up and click OK, that last OK sets it?

What's happening over there in Israel this morning, Bubble? How close are you to the destruction?

I am not close to the war where I live but we have been advised that we are in the range of the long -range missile if they are used. This is why they asked us to always be in proximity of a safe building or a shelter.

We don't have damage in town

My cousin who lives in Naharyia was seeing missiles daily and now relocated to Hertzlya for the duration. His work place decided that the security of the workers was more important than keeping their doors open.

Ginny, It's that OK that I cannot see. Where the bleep is it? ;)I've tried about a 100 times by now

I hope I don't have to make a whole new account, but by now I'm beginning to wonder.

I got it!

Apparently, the problem was that someone already is using the name Cathie here at SN (?)

Henceforth- I am Cathie- don't worry about the S. Just don't call me Scootz. Case closed, over and out.

And is the person formerly known as "Scootz" now "CathieS"???????

We love you no matter what we call you, Cathie.

And is the person formerly known as "Scootz" now "CathieS"???????

Yes MaryZ- do you suppose we can come up with some sort of androgynous symbol to represent me now?

Need all the love I can get right now Mary- and God is watching me very closely.

CATHIE, I've been trying to find something appropriate to send you, but I can't seem to get it from there to here. Consider yourself loved anyway, okay?

Babi

We all need all the love we can get - whenever it is. But I'm sorry that you need extra right now. No matter - we're happy to provide all the hugs you can handle, any time, any place!

{{{{{{{{{Cathie}}}}}}}}}}

-there is no better place than being right here. We will offer you whatever support and love that you might need. You have an eon of experience with senior -netters folks.

Senior net is all about love and care Cathie,, so dont worry we keep you cradled in all of our loving arms.

Later today, when I can sit down and think, I want to write a group email to all of you who have supported me this last week. I have no family here in the states and it's pretty rough right now. SN is a lifeline for me at this time- one of a few that I am grasping onto.

I promise to respond to you all later today. For now, thanks- from the bottom of my heart.

Blessings,

Cathie

PS- thanks Ginny- it worked!!

I have lived alone in a foreign country as a teenager and I know how rough that can be.

((((((Cathie)))) you have many friends here ready to offer their support and to listen to you when you need it.

SeniorNet is phenomenal in that there is always someone ready to help when the hour seems the darkest. Take care, Cathy, you are not alone when you are in SeniorNet. Hugs. Bubble

Cathie ~ Hang in there!
Here are some more {{{{{hugs}}}}} just in case you could use any more!

Cathie,

We are here for you at all times. Don't ever forget that!

Joan Grimes

We'll give you all our support, Cathie - write whatever and whenever you feel comfortable with - or not at all. [[[[[[hugs]]]]]]

I did not read as to where you are from. Now quite a few of us here in Seniornet are from other countries. Myself I am from England. Pretty much on my own now and 2 daughters not living close. Not found it easy over the years either as no family close. Single for past 40 years. (that has been O.K.). Made some good friends but now they are gone. Just have always kept pretty busy.

Try to find people in here for where ever you are from. I really enjoy talking to some who have gone from UK. to such as Canada,USA, Australia and Newzealand. Ash over the old days.

JeanneP

To Cathie,

All through the day, all through the night, you can come in and feel the love. There is no closing time here. There is always someone to greet you. Make yourself comfy and feel hug after hug after hug topped with friendly love.

This week's copy of Newsweek came today, and y'all will love the My Turn article. Here's a link to it on line. My Turn . I plan to write an "attagirl" letter to the editors. I'm posting this in a number of discussions on SN.

Thanks for that link Mary Z.

Reading it made me feel better.

Joan Grimes

MaryZ- I loved the article- so true! And what a great attitude she has.

BTW- in compiling my list of email addies to write my group email, I came across your picture. You have such a beautiful smile!!!

Blessings,

Cathie

I am with that lady. I am happy with my wrinkles and my post menopausal tummy. I don't want to look like a thirty something with skin pulled taut all over my face. What is wrong with being old anyhow! I do colour my hair because its piebald and not yet all grey. It does not look at all flattering au naturale!

Carolyn

hmmmm. I hate to have to disagree with my friends but if that is true I'm about five hundred most mornings. With that in mind I must be very young at 78. Claire

Great article, Mary. She states her case very well. Thanks for posting the link. Sue

She needs an escort...that's what must have got to Mary, Mary, quite contrary. Although she doesn't say so. She certainly has had, is living, a remarkable life. With what a lot of achievments! If only that young clerk could hear about it. No. All he saw before him was an older lady still able and eager to fix her own toilet. That labelled her young as much as anything could. Little does he know that he also inspired a wonderful piece of writing.

Now, now, Jonathan...what make you think that I'm contrary?!?!? I am, of course, but sometimes I can hide it a little bit.

I am with her. I get really tired of this young lady nonsense in some stores. Ranks right up there with "You Guys" Oh well, I like most of senior net knows how active and aware we all are and I can only feel pity for the younger set who cannot see past our white hair,etc.

Me, too, Stephanie and Mary. I cringe everytime I hear "xx years young" as if there's something wrong with being what I am...xx years old.

I also prefer books where characters are, to me, "true to life."

jane

I'm sorry, Mary Z. I got so involved in Mary Blair Immel's story MY TURN, that it was she I thought of as contrary. And that's not fair to her either, because she was only holding forth in her professional capacity as a creative writer. And doesn't she have talent! But she does want to be thought of as young. That's easy to see if one reads between the lines. The passion may no longer be there, but still very pretty feathers to have ruffled.

It was a smart 'thirtysomething' clerk who tried to be as helpful as he could. What quicker way to rouse the staff to action than to announce on the PA that a 'young lady' needs some help? I wonder if that plumbing ever got repaired. I can just see some other young clerk offering to go home with her to fix her tank. She is awfully pretty.

Cathie, my ISP was down again so I couldn't join the chorus is sending you hugs then but here they are.

wistfully at that "if only you were twenty two" I didn't quite know how to take it. I was incredibly stupid about THEM men at twenty two. I even married one who turned out to be a major mistake which took me twenty seven years to correct and leave. At twenty two . ..I wouldn't repeat that for anything even with all the painful gifts of the golden years. . .,we learn to value what we have learned and earned -- some of it a bit too late.

Hey, Jonathan - Not to worry. I took it as a compliment.

I just finished reading The Picture of Dorian Gray. I had quite forgotten just how well Oscar Wilde wrote. That book would be a wonderful discussion. It is so full of life's expectations, prejudices, wants and needs that each chapter could fill volumes of thoughts. I am going to rent the movie to see if it is equivalent to the book.

ALF- I read DORIAN GRAY for the first time about two years ago and was completely blown away by it.

There was one chapter in the book that was waaaaaaaaaaaay out there that made me stop and go "What the...?" It sorta didn't seem to go with the rest of the book. Did you notice it?

Yes Cathie, I did! I think that was the chapter that included Dorian's hedonistic years, wasn't it?

Whew.. Dorian sends me back to my 20's.. Not sure if I should reread or not. It had some bad connotations to me back then, but who knows now. 22... not my best age. Married , no children and stuck in Columbia , South Carolina as an Army wife. Working in a low end job, because hiring yankees or army wives was not done.. Not a good time for me.

I'm not sure, Andy. It's been two years and prolly 40 books ago.

But at any rate, it stopped me in my tracks and I wondered if he had been into his opium that night when he was writing. It is a great, great book.

I went for a stress test last Friday and ended up in Deborah Heart and Lung Hospital having two catheterizations and two angioplasties w/ stents implanted and will be going back on Tues for a third. I'm doing really well, considering and hope to be back w/ you all by the end of next week. Just pay attention to any small changes in your body's behavior. I just was having some pressure in my chest and sweating when i went up and down my stairs. Can't tell you all how much i missed your discussions......jean

I am so glad you were treated immediately and are getting along okay. Sounds good from here.

I,too, have been out of the loop for awhile due to a brief vacation visiting family.

In the Authors' Corner this morning was a message which I will probide a link to for anyone who is interested in conversing with this author. Might be interesting! Art Koff, Author

I enjoyed the column but question the young person's reason for calling her a young lady. Some folks, especially of the male persuasion, think they are complimenting you when they refer to you as young when you are just what you are. No harm meant, just a phrase. IMHO, much ado about nothing. She needed a column subject and this is what she chose.

and it gave me a boast. i agree w/her - why not be proud of your age, i get perturbed at being called a "girl" or in the hospital - "honey" "dear" "sweetie" even after I had said, "you can call me Jean." .......I am a grown-up and i am not intimate w/ you, don't take that liberty.

What is the need for humans to "change" reality - be young, be thin, be beautiful, etc - instead of accepting reality as beautiful. We have a friend who is very overweight - his whole extended family looks exactly like him, so it's obvious in his genes - would not be considered a "handsome" man by any means, has trouble doing most kinds of activity BUT is the kindest, sweetest 60's something man that i know. When i am sick, or have some other concern, HE is the one who calls to see how i am doing - the other men in our group will ask me when they happen to talk to me, but he makes an effort to let people know that he cares about them..........I'd take 6 of him over a slim, good-looking, Brad PItt type as a friend anyday.......jean

Wow, Jean! It's wonderful that you were "paying attention to your body". I hope I can be as careful as you were.

Glad y'all have enjoyed the column from Newsweek, and that it provoked some conversation. If a sales clerk has said that about me, I wouldn't have taken it as a compliment, either. To me, it would've meant what I understand it to mean when someone says "70 years young". What they're saying is that there's this really old person here, and we need to handle her gently because she's probably a doddering old fool. And I definitely wouldn't take it as a compliment.

A number of years ago, I went into a record store and was waited on by a young man with green hair. I was a bit apprehensive, until the fellow asked if he could help me, showed me the section on classical music, was quite knowledgeable about such music, and was very polite. I've been very careful since then not to judge YOUNG people, or any other group, by their appearance - and surely don't want to be judged by mine.

Mary Z, I can tell you are a very kind person. Judging by just our eyes can sure lead us astray. Many criminals look like upright citizens.

Hats, you are right -- MaryZ IS a very kind person. I met her and John at an Elderhostel last spring. What a great couple.

Y'all are going to make me blush. But I love it - and thanks. It was such a treat getting to spend time with PatWest, and get to know her. Maybe someday, Hats and I will get together for coffee, too.

Maryz- Please swing back to this old state when you can to visit me! isn't about time for you to come back to Texas?

DMN this morning has quite a glowing review for this new literary thriller, entitled THE KEEP, by Jennifer Egan. Here is the review:

DMN Review of THE KEEP

In addition, the writeup from B&N- I placed a hold online at the library for this one right away.

B&N Info on THE KEEP

Gee, Cathie, I'd love to get together with you, but the only family we have in that part of Texas now are in the cemetaries. My aunt in The Valley is half-a-continent away.

Sometime if we're heading out I-30/20, I'll give you a holler. We'd love to have you over here, too.

Cathie, thanks for the tip-off about Jennifer Egan and The Keep. I'm not familiar with any of her work, but after looking at your links, I think she worth taking a look at.

pedln,

I put my name in for both the book and the cd recording- looks like the cds will be available first. I must say that listening to a book on tape right now for me is extremely good- I lie down, relax and have to focus outside of my life. It's just the ticket for me at this time.

It is well that you have found a method which helps you cope. Much of the side effect of stress is dcaused by not having a method or plan for coping. I intend to try your method of istening to audio books when next I become overstressed. You have helped me today. Thank you.

By now, Mrs. Sherlock, I have amassed about ten things each day that help me this way. Feel free to email me for tips- I've become somewhat of an expert. I start each day with a 20 minute yoga meditation also which even I, with RA, can do. Every bit helps. I have a fabuolus doctor who has helped me so much. Email me any time.

I too, have for quite a number of years, used audio books to relax me and send me off to sleep at night.

Carolyn

Cathie: I'll keep you offer close to my heart. Thanks. Glad to hear from you, too, Carolyn, about its success. BTW, My mother spelled her name as you spell yours. WHen she named me she put the same ending on it: Jacquelyn.

CathieS -- You must have my computer bugged! We are on the same wave length on new books. I pre-ordered "The Keep" from Amazon last week. It really does look good. Amazon had an interview printed with Jennifer Egan and she listed some books that she liked, one of which was written in the 19th century, Wilkie Collins's "The Woman in White." I also ordered that book. Has anyone read it? I've heard of it over the years, but never got around to reading it.

Also, I just got my weekly email from the NY Times Books Update. They have a writeup on "The Keep" also. If anyone is interested, here is the link for that... THE KEEP, NY TIMES

I have read the preview interview and liked its premise so much that I reserved it from my library. They are awaiting their order so it will be awhile.

Has anyone here read "Father Joe" by Tony Hendra?? Very different biography for this day and age? We are reading it for our library F2F group. I am anxious to get to the meeting on Wednesday night to see what everyone's reaction is. Am also reading "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell, another different type of book. The subtitle is "The Power of Thinking Without Thinking". So, two unusual titles for this month's books.

Am so enjoying the posts that are here.

winchesterlady04-

BTW- you can call me just Cathie, it's ok.

THE KEEP does look good. I'll let you know when I get the cds- I was 3rd in line for those, but 1oth in line for the book. And I think it would be a good one to "hear".

yes, I did read Collins' WOMAN IN WHITE many years ago and also bought a copy for my B&N Classics shelf. It would be a great one to read here at SN.

I'll be discussing MEMORY KEEPER'S DAUGHTER this week with my f2f group. This month I am reading :

POE SHADOW, THE WHOLE WORLD OVER, and THE COUNTRY OF THE POINTED FIRS by Sarah Orne Jewett, friend of Willa Cather. All three I will be discussing at BNU, and then the Poe one here. All for September so I need to get busy in August. Plus, listening to THE PALE BLUE EYE. Whew!

Cathie, I loved THE COUNTRY OF THE POINTED FIRS by Sarah Orne Jewett. I once took a course titled "Cather, Jewett and Chopin. I loved THE COUNTRY OF THE POINTED FIRS because each person on that isolated island were individuals, so different from one another. I can't remember the book well. I have kept the book always wanting to reread it.

It's not often that you hear about Sarah Orne Jewett. At that time I also read "DEEPHAVEN AND OTHER STORIES" by Sarah Ornet Jewett. I would love to read a biography about her.

Funny, I use audio books in the gym.. Cardio exercise to me is intrinsicly boring, so I listen and sweat.. Makes exercise more interesting since I am not a tv fan. Cant use it when I lift weights or the weight machines, but do on the cardio stuff. Never thought of relaxing to it.. We also occasionally listen to books in the coach when driving.

Never thought of relaxing to it

The reason that this relaxes me is because I have to intensely focus on something else other than my life.

I picked up a CD of Masterpiece Theatres 'The Woman in White' at my library, but unfortunately my VCR is refusing to pick up the closed captioning on the CDs. I don't know why; it does fine with shows taped from the TV.

I was so disappointed. The photography was absolutely gorgeous, but I couldn't follow the dialogue. I'll have to hope the film eventually be available on DVD. That machine is still working properly.

Babi

We've probably beaten this subject to death, but this is what came up as I checked on "senior rate" rooms at a St. Louis DRURY hotel this am.

"Young Adults Age 50 & Over Welcome! Present AARP card or ID at check-in."

Shame on them!!!!!

The tape may be one published prior to 1991 or thereabouts. The law for TV sets changed right around then -- all TVs 13" or larger had to be capable to receive captioning. But that does not mean all media will have captioning. I have found some of the older items not to have, and also some of the independent companies. They're getting better.

Yeah, Pedlin, but the "Woman in White" CD did have closed captioning. My VCR just wouldn't pick it up. It may be that this was CC that was added later, as they are doing with some of the old classics. Possibly that is what my machine can't handle. I'll try one more time with a current production film, and see if it works. It may simply be that I need to stop buying cheap VCRs.

Babi

Joan Roberts and her daughter Linda, Another Mother and Daughter team

Golly I am LOVING seeing all our Books Family, this time in Montreal, don't Cokot and Eloise and Joan Roberts and her wonderful daughter look fantastic? And now Pat has put Zulema and her daughter and Eloise's daughter (is that Francoise, Eloise? She looks merveilleuse!!!!! I am jealous of Zulema who got to meet her, look at that face!)

It's clear we have some wonderful daughters of our Books and Classics folks, aren't you lucky!

It's so good to see our Books Folks, thank you Pat, and meeting them in person is even better! We hope to have a lot of folks from the Books in DC this October, if only for the day.

Here are three more! Pat West and Ginger, whose birthday is tomorrow (Happy Birthday Ginger!)and Robby doubtless happily talking about his Story of Civilization discussion. These are all from the same discussion in Montreal that Pat linked to above, our own Eloise was the hostesss, don't miss the photos in that discussion, follow Pat's links.

I finally got my hands on Heat by Bill Buford! I went again to B&N this time with the name of it on my lips and I got out the word Heat and the clerk said oh the one about cooking and I said yes, and BINGO there it was on the ends of the aisles. She confided to me that Oprah is recommending it, and that's made all the difference.

It's about how Buford chucked his career as a journalist (he writes beautifully) and went to work in the kitchen of Babbo, Mario Batali's NYC restaurant.

I can't put it down. It's hard to stop reading. It's not…it's written in a strange style. He's a good writer. He's not judgmental, I had no idea Batali had been such a wild man, such excess, unbelievable, but reported as it is here it seems …you have to read it for yourself. I recommend it, it's better than Kitchen Confidential by a mile.

The kitchen of Babbo is 10 feet by 25 and a lot is about how they manage and how to cook. I don't know a lot about cooking but I'm learning a great deal, just finished the chapter on short ribs. It's very interesting. I have actually eaten at Babbo, a tiny long and narrow restaurant, with three others of our SeniorNetters of long ago, Helen and Jerry Shiffman among them, a magic time.

And it's one of those Knopf editions, I love their books, the cover of the book is prettier than the jacket, the thing is bound, sewed and glued with beautiful paper that looks like you cut the pages yourself, that kind of look, and nice print. Really enjoying it.

Welcome back, Mabel (Jean) I am so glad to see you again and to hear you are getting better so quickly!

Did any of you read the interesting article on Andrew Wyeth in the June issue of Smithsonian? (The one with the Grand Canyon on the cover?) It's fascinating. It has a reproduction of his "Christine," which our old friend Tom Hoving is quoted on, if you're interested in art, you might want to catch a copy.

Then they have a tour called Mystery Lover's Murder on the Orient Express, one of 250 Smithsonian Journeys. It's "filled with the glamour and intrigue of an Agatha Christie novel. Meet mystery writers, learn about fakes and forgeries and experience luxury and suspense aboard the legendary Venice Simplon-Orient-Express from London to Venice."

What we need to do is all win the Lottery and take all of us on? SeniorNet's Books Lottery Trip on the Orient Express! Whoooo whoooooooooooo. But we take a lot of virtual trips here in the Books every day, all you need is a good book and some great intelligent people to talk to about it, and you're in hog heaven.

In our library in the middle of each group of shelves are display shelves. Our librarians choose books they have read and enjoyed and put them on the display shelves. I have picked up a lot of enjoyable books from these shelves. I also go to the trolleys by each set of shelves where the books are waiting for the shelvers. I get a lot of my books from the trolleys too as do I note a lot of borrowers.

Now Nicky is librarian at our very big super modern main library branch, she will often bring me home a book she thinks I may like. (Nicky is my eldest daughter, Mummy to Brooke and Grace) I am feeling old as Nicky will turn 40 on 23 January next year!

carolyn

I have had the best birthday I have ever had being in Montreal (little Paris)from the 19th to the 25th with family, the banquet, music, dancing, seeing Quebec Montreal, fireworks all thanks to Eloise.

Will look into the book Heat by Bill Buford I like to cook.

Ginger

Gosh, Jean, I just saw your post about your heart trouble. What a shocker. I hope you're feeling comfortable. We'll be thinking about you. Good luck with your next procedure. Please let us know how you're doing.

BaBi -- Saw your message about the "Woman in White" VHS tape. I checked and Amazon does have the DVD for this. It's only rated three stars out of five...so I can't say how good it is.

I just read The Widow of the South by Robert Hicks this weekend. I had heard about it on SeniorNet and then spotted it in the library when I was browsing. It was a strangely captivating story of war. I had never heard of the battle of Franklin, TN. Apparently, it has been called the bloodiest 5 hours of battle in the Civil War. 9,500 men died on the field or of their wounds.

I notice there is a chat room at the bottom of this page. Is that open for us to chat together at any time? If so, I'm up for that.

If you find out what that chat room is for, let me know! I thought we were chatting in here, pretty much, by posting. What is the difference between posting and chatting?? Tee hee!

Happy Birthday, Gingee!!

Look what I found: About Chat Room:

In addition to the discussions on SeniorNet, you also may use the ChatterBox chat room to converse with other SeniorNet participants in real time. This means, participants in the chat room can reply to one another's questions and comments as you type, instead of waiting hours or days for a post to be read and answered. To use chat on SeniorNet, simply click Chatterbox near the top of the listing of SeniorNet discussion topics and chat rooms on the Discussions main page. You need to already be logged in to SeniorNet to see the Chatterbox link. When you click on the Chatterbox, your browser will open the chat page and begin to download the chat applet (a small program that is built into Java-enabled browsers). If your browser is compatible with the chat program we use, you should see a grey box in the middle of the page while the chat applet loads. This might take a minute or two. A white box divided into three sections will appear when the java applet is loaded. You will see your login username in the top right section, along with the names of any other participants in the chat room at the time. The top left section will contain the messages that have been typed since you entered the chat room. If you have just entered the chat room and there are other participants in the room, you might see some greetings from others appear in that top left section. The section on the bottom is where you type your own message. Once you have typed something you want to share, just press the "enter" key ("return" for Macintosh computers) on your keyboard. Your message will move up where everyone in the chat room can see it. There will not always be other people in the chat room. If you don't see any other names on the list to the right, it means nobody else is in the room. Click the "back" button on your browser to get back to the discussions page; then return to the chat room at another time. To find out more about chatting and what type of browsers are compatible with our chat room, view our chat FAQ page. Most newer browsers are capable of accessing our chat room, but participants with older browsers or Netscape 4.x might have difficulties. WebTV users and others who cannot download a java applet may use our HTML chat feature. See the chat FAQ page for more information about HTML chat.

Here's a link to the FAQ Chat page: Chat FAQ

Now we're cookin'!

Ann Alden, Thnk you for the happy birthday.

I'm waiting to jump into my car and run to my lawyer's at a moment's notice this afternoon. but if anyone is interested, I will be in the chatterbox tonight at 7CT. I watch The Closer at 8 .

I'll hang around for a bit and see if anyone appears. if not, I'll hopefully connect another time. Just let me know.

namaste'

Cathie&Colby

Correction- I forgot- at 7, I watch John Stewart and then the Colbert Report- the humor is therapeutic, doncha know? I'll look into the chatterbox at 6CT instead.

Happy Birthday, Ginger!

Cathie, I've never gone into the chatterbox before, but I'll try at 7 ET. We're late getting supper tonight, so I might not make it.

Thanks for the birthday wish Mary Z. Tried to go to chatter box but they would not let me in. Oh well another day another try.

Well, I tried but it doesn't work for me. It says there are 6 chatters using it but I sure can't get to them. Oh well....

CathieS, Misery loves compay but we will make it

Well, gee - I thought it was just me, and I wasn't doing something right. We'll try again some other time. I got caught on the phone until 7:30, so have just been trying. Better luck next time.

I find it a lot of hello,, where are you from. hows the weather etc etc. very light -- if that is relaxing for you and you enjoy it it will be great for you. Just not my thing . . .Claire

I tend to agree with you Claire. You get to know people much better in the message boards than you do on chat. Chat is just a series of one liners.

Carolyn

I have never found anyone in the chat room, but then I tend to look during the day and not the evening.

Is that we aren't talking to the folks that we already feel like we know here in the Books folders and maybe that's a problem. I tend to like the postings right here the best.

That's probably true, ann. My thought was to chat with other "bookies" in real time in a chat room. Now, I see that the chatroom for this area, which I also thought might be available to us Book folks , has been removed. Oh well....

Cathie: The problem with a specialized chat room is that somebody would have to sit with a screen open 24/7 to the chat room to insure that somebody was available there to respond to whomever came in. With people from all over the world posting at SeniorNet that becomes a very difficult thing to insure. Then people complain/are disappointed , as they do in the big SN Chatterbox, that nobody is there to talk to.

With just the different time zones just here in the US, it's hard to get several people together simultaneously to appear online at the same moments. When you add in NZ, UK, Japan, South Africa, it really becomes complicated. I think that's why so many of us prefer the message boards. I do go into the Chatterbox on occasion and those people who go there at the same time for them every day have formed friendships, of course. But, I've found it hard to always be there at a given time every night, etc.

The Books Chat Room that was here had not beenupdated with the latest software and the last time it was used for a special event it caused the people all sorts of problems. Perhaps when the webmaster can get it updated and working properly, it can be used for a special books event.

jane

Several of us are always here in the mornings- I thought it would be lovely to chat with say, hats, or whomever over coffee in the morning. Because of my hands, I couldn't do it for long stretches anyhow. But it is nice to connect with people.

As soon as I raised this issue, the chat room here in the Book area disappeared. Frankly, I find it sad for something like this to occur when some of us might like to chat a few moments each day.

If I'm the only one interested in this, then by all means, just ignore me. I'm only a newbie here but my intentions were good, and I thought it might be a nice idea and gesture.

Cathie--Good morning to you. To my knowledge, the "chatroom" that is (or was) listed in the Books discussion area has never worked.

The main chatroom was the only one that was ever open. The only experience I ever had with it was the time Jane mentions when volunteers met in it to discuss something or other (it didn't work well because everyone was talking at once and some typed faster than others). Anyway, that was about six ? years ago and to my knowledge has never been "open" after that.

Maryal

Thanks Maryal. I appreciate your taking the time to let me know all that.

I'd like to chat with you occasionally, Cathie. But yesterday and today, everytime I've gone there, I get a box, but no listing place to show who might be there, and when I type in a message and click "enter", nothing happens. Oh, well.....

It's actually raining!!! at our house! And it rained yesterday afternoon, too. Amazing!

I'm going to try something new. I really need to do some time on the treadmill and recumbent bicycle at the Y, but it's SOOOOO boring, and I hate the TVs that are on there. I've taken a book, but that's awkward - well, I'm awkward. Anyhow, Jean suggested the books on CD, so at WalMart this morning, I got a portable CD player and some ear phones, and checked out Tom Sawyer at the library. They didn't have a big selection of fiction at our branch, and it's been years and YEARS since I read that. So we'll see how that goes.

And now it thunders - so bye-bye.

Chatting is fun. It's different from bulletin board posts in that it's real time. Ages ago, I used to chat once a week about books in a chat room. It was great. I don't have the time to do it any more, though.

The alternative to 24/7 is not closing the chat room down, it's scheduling a chat for those interested. If Cathie and Hats and others would like to chat for a couple of hours in the morning, or even one day a week, or once a month, why not just make a room available and let them try it rather than closing it down when Cathie expresses an interest?

Schedule for a couple of hours one day a week. There is no rule that a chat room has to be open all of the time, although if it is and no one is chatting, it doesn't hurt, either.

Kleo

Apparently I didn't explain well in my previous message about the Books Chat Room that it is not working. It's not been updated as the Chatterbox was. Perhaps when it's updated and works, something can be scheduled. Until then, as Maryal explained, having a chat room that doesn't work open to people seems to be something that would only lead to a lot of frustration.

jane

Kleo--The problem with the chat software here is that it is slow and very limited. I've been in chat rooms too, and believe me, the Chatterbox here (the one that IS open) is not that experience. Try it some time and you'll see.

All, just to clarify: the Books chat room was not "closed down" when someone expressed interest. It just made us aware that the link was still visible to a chat room that didn't work.

Since the chatterbox chat room isn't used much during the day, anyone can meet there for social chat.

why not just make a room available and let them try it rather than closing it down when Cathie expresses an interest?

I have to say, that doing that really hurt my feelings . (not you, kleo) And certainly it could have been explained to me without having it just disappear on the very day I mentioned it.

And hats, I am so very sorry, I didn't mean to drag you into this . I know you like to avoid controversy so I humbly apologize. I just used your name as an example because we two are on early. Forget about hats- she didn't do anything. Forget I even mentioned her.

I'm gonna let this situation go- but I would like to say that I think it was handled poorly. I had nothing but good intentions.

And since I have expressed myself with nothing but politeness and frankness, I'd appreciate my post not being removed. I have not been rude here at all- simply honest and open. Two things which you folks at SN always say you value and abide.

Cathie--If you are available right now, I'll meet you in the Chatterbox which does work. You can see for yourself that much time is spent with one liners, not to mention hello and goodbye.

To get there, go to Discussions and look at the first menu. I think it take Java about 30 seconds to load--on direct connection.

Want to try?

Yes, SeniorNet often does things behind the scenes without explaining to folks what is going on, leading to unnecessary misunderstandings. It makes sense to me that the chatroom situation should have just been explained in full, up front.

Ah, Deems, that does make a difference with the chat experience.

Thanks all for the explanation as to what is going on.

Kleo

Hi Kleo--I'm all alone in the chatroom, waiting for Cathie. Want to join me?

The software is better than it used to be. I need someone else who types fast to come in and join me.

As I mentioned yesterday, Maryal, I went to chatterbox and I can't get into it, but thanks for the offer. You are the only one who has tried to help here in an honest fashion. That's not the problem, Maryal- it's HOW this was done. Very insensitively and for no good reason. My final word on all this and yes kleo- I agree with you.

Cathie--I'm in there right now. Did you wait for Java to load? You see a coffee cup for a while and then the white chat box appears.

nice that you're willing to try I type fast but with a million typos stay put I'll come see. it's eleven fifty seven here. . . claire

Yes, I see the chat box, I type a message and his send but nothing happens. It's ok maryal- I'm really not too interested any more but I truly do appreciate your kindness.

I used to go into Chatterbox quite frequently (this was maybe 5 years ago) but now I am unable to get in. What am I doing wrong????? JOY

Joy, you may need to go to Sun Microsystems and update your Java, according to Jane who is a techie.

Kleo

I'm like Cathie - I get the white boxes, but no list of chatters, and if I type something in the message box and hit Enter, it just disappears. I haven't seen a "coffee cup". Our 17-year-old grandson will be here shortly, and I'll ask him to check, too.

mary and cathie does your browser support it. and there is a place to switch into it from html probably in preferences. jane would know

I'll try that, Claire - thanks.

THANKS, CLAIRE!!!! That did the job!

Cathie, try that.

I can't stay there long - Jesse should be here shortly.

I don't know how to do it Mary- sorry.

Cathie...I was just in Chatterbox looking for you. You see the message box, right? After typing a message, press enter on your computer? Or have you tried that?

I apologize for not posting a message explaining the situation with the Books chat room. It uses a template that is not working.

We usually do not do things that affect our members without alerting you all so I'm sorry that I didn't explain the situation at the time.

In addition to having the latest version of java, you may have to adjust the settings on your firewall program if you use one, especially Norton. Or, as has been suggested, you can use the HTML version of the Chatterbox, by following the instructions at http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?PageID=5718. With the html version, you must keep pressing the Enter key on your keyboard to see new messages posted by others, as well as your own.

JoanP--I think the problem is with Java. That's jane's thought and she's pretty up to date on this stuff. If Java doesn't load, you might see the chat box but nothing will happen.

Yes, it could be java or a firewall. We've had several folks who use Norton who had a problem.

Well, I just went to Chatterbox, but no one else was there. My name was in the little box to the right and the big box accepted my message. Does that mean it's working for me? After reading about java and Norton I was afraid that my Norton Security would keep me out. Am I out? Will the message one types stay there until someone else comes in, or does it disappear?

When Anna Alexander told me she had met a lot of people from Chatterbox, I thought she was saying Shadowbox, and I had visions of a craft discussion group that made those Shadowboxes/ dioramas that you hang on the wall. I was sure that Anna had some hanging on her wall.

How do you decide what books to pack in your suitcase? When you're flying? It's so much easier when you can put a whole bagful in the back of the car. The Latin book is a must. Undaunted Courage, even tho I haven't started it yet -- we're going to be near Fort Clap? -- near Astoria. Stick it in. Carry A Fine Balance by Rohinton Mistry on the plane. That is one good book and I'm grateful to whoever recommended it in RATW. I wasn't prepared to like it so much. Must make room for a small paperback mystery -- maybe the Virginia RIch I picked up at the used book store in Cville, or maybe I should just browse at Seattle's Mystery Book STore.

Yes, Pedln, you were in the chatterbox if your name was in the right column and you could post and see your message.

No, it won't be there for anybody else to see. Only people who are there when you type it can see it. Those who come in later see only what's posted after they're in the room. That's, of course, a drawback to instant chat. Only those there at exactly the same time see the same messages.

jane

Carry A Fine Balance by Rohinton Mistry on the plane. That is one good book and I'm grateful to whoever recommended it in RATW.

One of my all time favorites, pedln- 100 times the book that Vishnu is. I'm anxious to reread it with you all.

The Latin book is a must

Now THERE is a true Classicist! hahahaa So true! You're never fully dressed without a smile or your Latin!! YAY Pedln!

The Traveller's Lament, what to take on the plane!!! My favorite dilemma.

Get that gigantic and hardback HEAT, Pedln, that one should really make you pay a baggage weight supplement. I hope you have a wonderful safe trip.

Heat is an appropriate subject: it's HOT here, very hot, and in this HEAT (can you IMAGINE cooking in a professional kitchen in this weather?) I've been having a wonderful time indoors in the cool, toggling with a snarl between computers, laptops, technicians, bellsouth, Dell, HP, and in the McCourt heading, one of the few pleasures of the day, creating the perfect lovely Irish pea green color for the last day, except I can't find it. It's had so many iterations of pea green I feel a bit peckish, and green myself, actually. hahaaa

And then to go with the pea green there's an authentic Irish Lament of Parting I never heard of, the song The Parting Glass, (see discussion, I love what comes up in our discussions) and the music too, and I thought well that's a strange tune the first time I played it early this morning, but now I'm stuck on it, playing it over and over. Very strange and fey.

And I mention all this because for some reason this part of it really gets to me: (or I'm seasick with the pea green)

But since it falls unto my lot,
That I should rise and you should not,

Gosh that gives me chills, am I just suffering from too much pea green and Irish lilts? How does that strike you? If it does.

There's something about the way the Irish express themselves, like McCourt, who wrote a review of Heat which was like no other, which seems...fraught?

Anyway, when in doubt, pack heat! hahahaa (Read a couple of chapters first tho before plunking down all that money)

And as a benefit of another discussion we've heard of an author new to me, have you read H.E. Bates?

Pedln was talking about him in the Books Into Movies, apparently he's quite famous! I had never heard of him but I love the movies made from his books, so I am anxious to see if his short stories live up to his movies. I've also ordered the JaHyun Kim Haboush translation of The Memoirs of Lady Hyegyong: The Augobiographical Writings of a Crown Princess of Eighteenth Century Korea which has THE most surprising reviews you ever heard of!!

(Since we've been on an Irish kick I have kicked around the pronunciation of Hyegyong, anybody here speak Korean? I have a feeling it's wonderfully exotic sounding).

Pedln's Latin reminded me of Cesar Millan, too, she's a veritable font of information!

Are you familiar with him? The Dog Whisperer? He's written books and I hope to get one tomorrow when I go out. He's a dog trainer and you've never seen anything like him, these last two nights have been incredible.

He's on every night for 2 hours from 9-11 on the National Geographic Channel and if you thought YOUR family dog had a problem you have not seen anything like these dogs or what they do or how he does what he does, I'm totally hooked. Dogs which bark all the time, dogs which growl or snap at their owners, dogs which eat bushes, dogs which attack other dogs, dogs which rule the roost, tiny yappy problem dogs, huge aggressive killer dogs, dogs dogs dogs, every possible behavior problem, he treats them all differently. Amazing. He had a Bichon Frise if that's spelled correctly which was an absolute terror, I have never seen anything like it, a literal explosion of snapping, snarling whirling fire. Like a mop held up and shaken out, never saw anything like it. But Millan is totally unafraid. It's unreal.

If it were PBS I'd love to discuss it with somebody, but it's National Geographic. Anybody here see it?

I findhim amazing in that way. the dogs respond as they must because they are dogs but too many peoiple have issues and work them out with pets often treating them like children. The kids walk all ovr them which is when they call Cesar.

He'll be on every night this week at 9 or I've found here in CA also at 6p.m. a great show if you like dogs and people.

one of many irish songs that I know and love. The musical mode they use is haunting and the words are often poetic. the clancy brothers have a song book out with many of them including this one. Ginny you're right up my alley with this also the dog whisperer.. . . gotta get to my desk work and send you our postage. claire

the parting glass words and music

don ask me what that means. oops have to go back and get the basic url brb

http://tinyurl.com/n8tr

these lines occurr often in irish folk music

"But the sea is wide and I cannot cross over

And neither have I the wings to fly" and odd music is often mixalidian or doric mode. I love their music ad their lyrics. . . .claire

I have recommended this program to many dog lovers whose dogs are out of control or just because they love dogs. Its a joy to watch.

What is mixilodian or doric mode, Claire??

I used to know more exactly and could look it up but the sound is the most important thing and it's often found in Irish music. . . in fact celtic music as a whole

I did look it up here it is and explains it better.

http://tinyurl.com/lzrqh

Pedin: I bet you're going to be at Fort Clatsop - near Astoria. Corps of Discovery fort named after the Clatsop tribe. That should be so interesting. I missed it when I was in the area last fall and I've been kicking myself.

Marni

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan - 07:48pm Aug 1, 2006 PT (#422 of 424) much obliged for your opinion of VISHNU, Cathie

I just want to say that I am really surprised that this type of sarcastic behavior by a leader is allowed to go on. I have been told repeatedly here that we all have a right to express our opinions. I don't really think that this sort of response by a non leader would be tolerated. This is the third time now- how many times do you all expect me to ignore this stuff? Please ask that this person ignore my posts as I have done in an email. This is becoming upsetting to me.

For the sake of the peace of the boards, I agree to never do a group with him, but I want this sort of needling at me to cease and desist. Apparently, there exists some sort of intolerance for an opposing opinion .

Milan. He raises a lot of queries in the dog world. Some people swear by him, but a sizeable contingent do not and point to the tv show as a good reason why. It seems if you go to a seminar in person, you realize that the shows are taped over a long period of time and the dogs change over a long period. I have never watched him, but then I must be truthful that in all the years of dogs in my life, I never had one that acted like most of the behavior described. I like this better than a chat room, because I can come and go as I need.

Yes, the shows usually tape over several weeks and for the time he tells the people it will take to get their dog on the right track. Its just fun to watch. And, I need all the fun I can get!! I must admit that I quit watching him this summer because he seems to use the same technique with every dog and it got boring to me.

Winsum(Claire)

Thanks for the link to that page but I still don't understand it. I have only played the piano and this looks like its for a stringed instrument, which makes sense with Irish music. It must be me. I am getting denser and denser but thanks for trying.

Did anyone get this email from EBay president today?

Dear Ebay Seller

As you know, I almost never reach out to you personally with a request to get involved in a debate in the U.S. Congress. However, today I feel I must.

Right now, the telephone and cable companies in control of Internet access are trying to use their enormous political muscle to dramatically change the Internet. It might be hard to believe, but lawmakers in Washington are seriously debating whether consumers should be free to use the Internet as they want in the future.

Join me by clicking here -- http://www.ebaymainstreet.com/netneutrality -- to send a message to your representatives in Congress.

The phone and cable companies now control more than 95% of all Internet access. These large corporations are spending millions of dollars to promote legislation that would allow them to divide the Internet into a two-tiered system.

The top tier would be a "Pay-to-Play" high-speed toll-road restricted to only the largest companies that can afford to pay high fees for preferential access to the Net.

The bottom tier -- the slow lane -- would be what is left for everyone else. If the fast lane is the information "super-highway," the slow lane will operate more like a dirt road.

Today's Internet is an incredible open marketplace for goods, services, information and ideas. We can't give that up. A two-lane system will restrict innovation because start-ups and small companies -- the companies that can't afford the high fees -- will be unable to succeed, and we'll lose out on the jobs, creativity and inspiration that come with them.

The power belongs with Internet users, not the big phone and cable companies. Let's use that power to send as many messages as possible to our elected officials in Washington. Please join me by clicking here right now to send a message to your representatives in Congress before it is too late. You can make the difference.

Thank you for reading this note. I hope you'll make your voice heard today.

Sincerely,

Meg Whitman President and CEO eBay Inc.

P.S. If you have any questions about this issue, please contact us at government_relations@ebay.com.

Ann--Your "email from eBay president" seems to be a phishing scheme. If you click on the provided link, you will see there is a place to submit your eBay number. This gives others access to your information.

Dump it and all other emails of this variety.

Ann: As Maryal suggested, I'd never use any links in any email. It's hard to say on your email because Meg Whitman has been very vocal about "net neutrality" and her email that you've described above is present on a number of political websites and she's cited for many others. If you put "net neutrality" into google, you'll get a lot of hits.

Here are some links.

http://liberalorder.typepad.com/the_liberal_order/2006/06/an_email_from_e.html

Web Titans' D.C. Blues Yahoo, eBay, and others just lost a key vote on "Net neutrality." Here's why they're likely headed for defeat on the whole issue

LINK

If you're interested in this issue, use google to find information and then use that to contact your Congresspeople, etc. rather than a link in any email you receive would be my suggestion.

The phishing link should be removed from this bulletin board, also. They can cause all sorts of damage, monetary and identification loss.

Cathie, Jonathan is never sarcastic or rude.

Kleo

I tried to write Jonathan. I didn't see his address. Kleo is right. Jonathan is very kind. He would never hurt anybody. He just worries about giving his best as a Discussion Leader.

Jonathan, if you are reading this, just know that so many people here at Seniornet feel the same way as Kleo. No one can tell and help us understand Vishnu accept you. Do it for Manil Suri.

I have always known you to be a gentleman. Please return. Mal, Kleo and all of us are waitting for your words about Vishnu. Remember it's a book about a man's life and death. There are so many lessons for all of us to learn. We can not learn the lessons without you. Please Jonathan.

Jonathan, remember "My Name is Red?" We would have never made it through the book without your help. You are and were gentle at that time. Then, Remember "Jesus Goes to Harvard?" Your posts left a great impact on so many people. You have so many strength. As far as I know, your greatest strength is human kindness.

Hats, you said it so right. Jonathan is a mensch. I couldn't add to your words. Bubble

Yes, he is a "mensch." I will not take part in any more discussions until he returns to "Death of Vishnu." This is a grand book with a complex plot. We needed Kleo and Maryal to guide us through it yesterday.

Although I'm not an everyday, active participant, I look forward to reading everyone's messages in the Book Nook each and every day. Lately, it seems as though everyone is feeling upset and slighted over the most innocent things. For instance...on-line "chat" and now Jonathan's remark. I think the people who keep the Senior Net site up and running are doing a wonderful job. And, although I don't know Jonathan at all, he seems to be a really decent and interesting person and I'm sure he just meant "thanks". He has previously said that he welcomes everyone's opinions, whether they like the book to be discussed or not.

Maybe it's the heat, but I think everyone needs to chill out. Sorry to go on....just my thoughts.

There are so many discussions going on. I am going to take part. I want to know about the Lewis and Clark adventure.

I agree there seems to be an element of disharmony here in SN which I have never seen before except in the Political discussions where as we all know you enter at your own peril LOL!

Some of the people who are being criticised I have never ever had a problem with. I can't understand it.

Perhaps its the heat! People get cross and unreasonable in very hot weather.

Carolyn

It's understandable, but very distressing, when someone lashes out all around because of a personal problem that has nothing to do with innocent bystanders. We can be sympathetic but wish it wouldn't happen - especially when someone who has been doing such a marvelous job and is always the soul of consideration is attacked. I'll never forget the great discussions of "My Name Is Red" and am looking forward to another wonderful experience with the "Death of Vishnu".

I also have already read "A Fine Balance" and most of "Vishnu" To say one is better than the other is comparing apples to oranges. They are both fantastic!!! Each in its own way!!!

Hats and Bubble are right - Johnathan is a mensch. I sure wish he could have come to the bash in Montreal - would have loved to meet him.

Then I suggest everyone recommend their favorite heat wave drink. I think a lime-aid blended, light on the sugar, fresh-squeezed, of course, is absolutely the best cooler during a San Joaquin Valley heat wave.

As I pointed out in chat yesterday, anyone who lives in DC or the Midwest or the Deep South suffers far greater than we do, although we had 2 weeks straight of temperatures 105-115 degrees, because we have relatively low humidity. The southern part of the San Joaquin Valley is so dry, in fact, that it is a desert. I live in the northern part where we had humidity up to 20% during the heat wave, although one day a thunder storm passed due south of me, and it reminded me of Louisiana.

So, top that, I dare you, a fresh-squeezed, blended lime-aid, in a smooth tall glass that you can roll against your cheeks and forehead.

Kleo

Last use of lime font color, I promise.

KLeo, I had to highlight your post to be able to read it. Please make that lemonade more concentrate . Thanks! Bubble

What is a mensch? I know its Yiddish but what does it mean? Does it mean gentleman?

Carolyn

Joan Roberts I intend to read both books too. I have an interest in India at this time. Like you said, I have the feeling both books are completely different. One book will only make us better prepared for the next discussion.

I love Lime. It is so refreshing isn't it? A big jug of lime juice ( well watered down of course) and full of ice is so refreshing in summer. Now we are drinking hot chocolate ( its winter here)

carolyn

mensch or mensh (mĕnsh) n. Informal., pl. mensch·es or mensch·en (mĕn'shən). A person having admirable characteristics, such as fortitude and firmness of purpose: “He radiates the kind of fundamental decency that has a name in Yiddish; he's a mensch” (James Atlas).

Yes Carolyn and more. A considerate gentleman, a man with a heart. My dictionary says :

mensch n., pl. mensch·en . Informal. a decent, upright, mature, and responsible person.
[1950–55; < Yiddish mentsh man, human being)

Carolyn and Kleo, delicious.

Well, yes, impossible to read.

I always forget it is winter down under, when it is summer up here, even though I study plant evolution and climate north and south.

One year when my husband was overseas I had Christmas dinner on base with an Australian woman. She said she loved being in San Diego, because the Christmas weather was just like home. This was one time the topsy-turviness of seasons on different sides of the equator threw me for a loop.

Her parents were British, but she had been born and raised in Australia, then married an Aussie. So Christmas dinner was a very lovely, but heavy, traditional English Christmas dinner. That was the same year an Iranian woman had cooked Thanksgiving dinner for me from the front cover a woman's magazine. Everything looked American traditional, but tasted 100% Persian. She added white rice with potatoes-bottom-of-the-pan, and I assured her it was perfectly okay to add a regional dish to a traditional Thanksgiving dinner. Even if the region was Iran.

I like summer holidays, barbecues, iced drinks, light salads, plus potato and macaroni salads, sitting around, playing volleyball.

Kleo

PS Well, "potatoes-bottom-of-the-pan" actually spell checks in SeniorNet. I misspelled potatos the first time, and it threw it back at me with correct spelling and all the hyphens.

It is hot in Winchester -- about 90 miles from D.C.

The lime drink sounds great! Today I'm drinking peach tea.

Hats -- If you are interested in India, have you read any books by Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni? I have read two of her books, "Sister of My Heart" and "The Vine of Desire" (sequel), and they were both really good. The culture is so different from ours and so interesting.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- joan roberts - 11:49am Aug 2, 2006 PT (#439 of 447) It's understandable, but very distressing, when someone lashes out all around because of a personal problem that has nothing to do with innocent bystanders

Coming from someone who doesn't know me, or my problems, and who has never even spoken to me on the board, this is really a cheap shot. Really, this is the lowest thing I've seen here todday.

In spite of what you think, I feel that rude comments were made to me. And the chat room thing was handled very poorly. Something could have easily been explained to me the first day I mentioned it. You're entitled to think otherwise.

The comment from ms roberts is just a bit too, too cruel for me to take. And yes, I now know what a horrible mistake I made to entrust my personal life to you "ladies".

I am removing SN from my desktop- and my life.

Lady was a rescue collie and while grooming her one day I must have pulled too hard and hurt her because suddenly there was a snarl and a showing of teeth. I must be a pack leader, or at least with dogs because without even thinking. I flipped her over on her back and snarled back at her right up against her face. the face looked amazed and Lady never did anything like that again. She learned to tolerate the vaccuum and to not be afraid of any stick like object as well.

when you take on a rescue dog you take on it's past and it takes on yours as well. I didn't know I had been a doggy pack leader in mine but surely did act that way. . .Claire

and they'll never be able to cast him as one again. I don't think I can watch him again either. too bad I really enjoyed him before I knew what a terrible person he is. . .claire

Cathie - I have been a member of SN for years. I feel you are being much too sensitive. Nobody here in books has a mean bone in their bodies. We have never had dissension here in this particular folder. I think you should go back over the posts and re read them with the above comments in mind. You are being very unjust in your opinion about the posts.

Carolyn

Sadly Claire, it's the same with rescue cats, you take on their past. When my lovely kitty died, the 3rd out of 4 in just two years, I adopted a new cat right away, because the remaining cat was going to die without a companion.

So, the day after my kitty died, the picture in the Saturday animals-at-the-pound feature was of an adult calico cat named Dinah. I went immediately to adopt her.

When I got her home I noticed a few unattractive things about her, she was filthy, she bit, she scratched, she did not clean herself at all, she was a sloppy eater, her tail is way too short, but too long to be a manx, she didn't purr, she couldn't meow, she was wider than she is long, her legs were too short, she didn't know how to jump, but wanted to sit in human laps all day long, she ate garbage, licked the floor, and didn't drink water, and her nose is crooked, among other problems. On the plus side she is very interactive and was thoroughly litter-box trained.

After two years most of these problems have gone away. She is, still, a badly socialized cat, with a tendency to bite. She has learned how to speak and purr, though, so before she bites she tells you she is going to, and you can dump her on the ground--I haven't been bit since she started this. She cleans herself because she mimics everything my old lady housecat does, although we have to take her to a groomer every two months to clip her claws and give her a bath. My old lady kitty weighed 6 pounds, out of her normal weight of 10, when we brought Dinah home. She loathes Dinah so much, that she has decided to outlive Dinah.

Rescue animals? Hmmmm. Next time I'm going to go to one of those charities that hand-picks the best cats out of the pounds and humane societies and get my kitty from them.

Dinah, by the way, follows me around the house, and every time she is fed she dances with delight. I wouldn't trade her for the best kitty in the world, because she seems to think she won the lottery by becoming my kitty.

Kleo

Rescue Cats

We had a Jack Russell Terrier for 12-1/2 years. He passed away about 2 years ago. He was a wonderful dog but totally crazy! I missed him a lot. After about a year, I decided I was ready for a new pet, but couldn't get a dog because we are gone for so much time each week day. I decided to get a cat and located a rescue organization in town. They posted all the cat photos on-line with brief stories of their lives and health issues. I picked out a calico female kitten. But, by the time I went to pick her up, I had changed my mind and decided upon a big orange tabby (cross-eyed) male cat named Sebastian. I felt that I was probably his last chance because the rescue lady had had him for 4 years. We brought him home and he was just perfect for us. I've definitely become a cat person after a lifetime of having dogs. So much, in fact, that I went back a few months later and got his friend, Luke, who was only 10 months old at the time. They are great friends and purrfect gentlemen.

Yes, my kitties are also substitute dogs. I simply have lived too many places and am gone to much to keep dogs. But I miss them. I like they way they're loyal. Dinah, though, is loyal like a dog. I once tried to walk her. I put my cat harness on her and she screamed, spread her legs, leaped into the air, and splatted onto the ground crying. I took the harness off. If she wants to be a house kitty, so be it.

It's the way to go, imo, rescuing some adult animal no one else will take.

Kleo

Kleo--Years ago, the family next to us had a little girl about 8, a boy about 6 and a black and white cat. That cat came out to play when they did and followed them around, just like a dog. The neighbor's yard and this yard and the yard below are on a hill, great for sledding in the winter. The kids next door would come out with their sleds and the cat. Every time they went down the hill, the cat ran after them, climbed the hill with them and then did it all again.

I loved your use of "splatted" in your post. Great picture of a cat you draw with that word.

We had two cats when we were kids - brothers- they would walk with us on our country roads up to three or four kilometres while we went blackberrying. The cats were kids cats. My one which was grey and named ( very originally LOL) Grey Tiddles would let me dress him up in dollys clothes and he rode in my dollys pram. His brother was called Black Tiddles. Everywhere we went our cats went too. If our mother went blackberrying with us she would cuss because the cats would go into the middle of the brambles and get snagged and she would feel obliged to go in and unsnag them rather than let one of us kids get all scratched.

Carolyn

Oh, I'm so jealous. When I lived in North Carolina a woman in my neighborhood had a big orange tabby who used to go on all her walks, when she took the dog out and the baby out. There they would go, woman pushing stroller, dog on leash attached to stroller, cat walking on outside of stroller. I have never had a cat who would go for a walk with me no matter how much I want one and try--that's why I already had the harness, I try with every cat I get. And, yes, I've tried without a leash, too.

Our house cats always played outside with us, but they never walked with us. One used to tear the nose of a lovely German shepherd who used to walk with us. The owner of the shepherd dog threatened to sue our family until he found out the holy terror was the little 5 pound tortoise-shell sitting on the porch.

Harumph. Walk the cat, indeed!

Kleo

when we walked the collies my daughters little black kat. . KITTY of course trailed along behind. . .her choice not to be left out. I'm a dog person and as such don't care for cats. inevitably they dig their claws into my thighs if they are on my lap, are multi level and climb all over everything including kitchen sinks. tear fabric I can just see on e climbing these lovely long white drapes.

no more pets. It's all I can do to take care of ME.

Cats can be trained to stay off of surfaces. I don't like animals on my bed, at all. Nor are they ever allowed on kitchen surfaces, no counters, no stoves, no refrigerators. I think it's icky. Mine sleep under the bed. Cats have no problems with territorial limitations.

My cats provide me more than I provide them, all of my pets do. They don't have all those human cares. Still, they do deserve to be better taken care of in some ways, and it is a lot of work to keep on top of cleaning, feeding (my old kitty needs medicated twice a day), petting, grooming. I can see not having pets, not having the cares.

Kleo

I put in a lifetime caring for others and I'm tired of it. Now it's just me and my toys and you guys. so much easier. . .claire

with most of us in it t'was fun. the usual group are pretty lame. when we dfo it again we can decide here or in any of the areas we share to do it together. why not. . .claire

We were out in the motorcoach last year and our neighbors at a park in Kentucky came out of their coach with two siamese cats on a double lead. They walked them just like dogs and the cats seemed to love it. First time I have ever seen that. We walk our corgis of course and I used to always have a cat or two around, but because of our travel in the coach, I do not. The dogs go with us and love the travel, but cats generally are not fond of that sort of disruption in their lives. I love senior net and hate it when there is dissension. Come back Jonathan. I have not participated in your discussions, but remember you chiming in on the Houseboat fun.

don't they? so I've heard they are beautiful to watch like sculpture I never met or read or followed jonathan but I can see he's well liked. mustn't let a poor woman in crisis chase him away. E-mails are nice. . .I like it here to Steph, it's always been so pleasant and interesting.

I’m really enjoying the cat and dog stories here (have you seen that commercial where it’s raining little toy cats and dogs?)

I used to have a cat I walked on a leash, I had seen others do it and it was not hard to teach, but I would not do it now with our present cat.

I am absolutely besotted with Cesar Millan,

and bought his book yesterday, it’s a real success story, he came to America from Mexico not speaking one word of English and with a few dollars in his pocket and it’s very inspiring and uplifting and so is he. It’s a super book, just love the guy.

Quote:

If anyone ever says to you that people in the United States don’t have kindness in their hearts any more, don’t believe them. I wouldn’t be where I am today if it weren’t for the unselfish help and trust of so many people who reached out to me. In this country, those two beautiful ladies in San Diego were the very first, they wouldn’t be the last. Believe me, not a day goes by that I don’t remember who truly blessed I’ve been with the people who’ve been put in my path.

This Emmy nominated program features a charming, handsome, positive person working with some of the worst dog problems you ever saw. I hope it wins an Emmy; his book is wonderful, lots of photos from his childhood in Culiacan and his grandfather’s farm in Ixpalino, and advice too.

He does go back after a number of weeks or months to see how his clients are getting on, he does not always have to take them to his “pack” or clinic, but he can work miracles on the spot tho he keeps saying is not a miracle, is dog psychology, but last night after I heard him say offhand to one of the people going out to test something, “dog does not go through door first, human first, always,” I thought, HO!

And so I tried his PSST! And the finger pointing at our old dog who muscles you out of the way in his eagerness to get outdoors and he jumped as if he’d been electrocuted, just that, nothing more and today he looks at me as if he’s not sure who has taken over the Alpha Dog spot, (I have). Hahahaa

Super super book, talks about some celebrated dog bite cases, talks about all sorts of things, if you like dogs, you really want this book. I love it.

I’m also reading The Sex Lives of Cannibals by J. Maarten Troost, have you read that thing? THE most literate elegant writing AND it’s all true, it’s not fiction, I think we might like to discuss it here, here’s a sample of the way he expresses himself:

Chapter 21:

IN WHICH the Author shares some thoughts on what it means to Dissipate, to Wither Away, Dissolute-like, and how one becomes perversely Emboldened by the inevitability of decay, the sure knowledge that today, possibly tomorrow, the Body will be unwell, which leads to Recklessness, Stupidity even, in the conduct of Everyday Life.

Whoo, that’s the last chapter. Apparently this is a true account of a man who moved to Tarawa, a remote South Pacific Island, and what happens when he discovers that it’s not the island paradise he dreamed of. (Is that the same Tarawa of WWII?)

Apparently it’s laugh out loud, I’m about to find out. Since Johnny Depp bought an island I’ve always wondered what it would be like to live on one, sounds interesting, to me, anyway.

And yesterday I joined the Discovery Channel Book Club, have you seen that thing? Just the books I really want, yes it's "another book club," but some of them are super. I “selected” at $1.99 each:

Pompeii by Marisa Ranieri, which was recommended TO me in Pompeii, a $49.95 book, (counts as two purchases)

The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History of Rome and the Barbarians

And 1 free:

Exploring Ancient Egypt: Places in Time, a $39.00 book.

Assuming there IS an Egypt left I am considering doing the National Geographic Society Tour of it in February. It does look to die for and I am not getting any younger. However I am not quite ready to die THERE either, we'll see.

To select even more titles or see what sorts of things they do offer you could go to www.discoverychannelbookclub.com

I got this in the latest article of Archaeology which contains a simply scandalous article on the Tombaroli, the Grave Robbers as they call them, who sell antiquities to the Met and the Getty Museum, et. Al.

They show the most gorgeous fresco imaginable before and after they broke it up to sell, the broken pieces being thought of as more valuable than the original. ("Imagine that! We found all the pieces!"...when they had broken them up themselves!!!! ). Sacrilege!

That’s what I’m reading, what are YOU reading, this long hot summer?

for two hour stretches and I watch every minute. My daughter is equally enthralled. One of her dogs, Tessie, the collie, is semi hysterical and could use some help from him. . .will get it maybe by proxy. I think many dog owners can learn to think more like dogs with his help. dogs don't think like people and that is his constant message to owners who lov them as children. I should buy the book if only to support him. He's a terrific person as well as a good psychologist for people as well as dogs and other animals. . . .claire

I've enjoyed the pet posts, too - but maybe it's time to move the discussion to a dog/cat/pet discussion page, other than talking about this guy's book specifically.

Ginny - What am I reading? Well I have been reading a lot of WW2 British Naval novels. I have learned a lot about the ships my father served in and what the battles were like. The books are written by people who served in the Royal Navy. I have read quite a number of inconsequential British who dunnits. I have not tackled anything too heavy as World affairs have been weighing on me heavily without me wanting to also read heavy books. I don't think I have read anything very startling!

I have not been buying any books in the last year as other expenditure has been more pressing so most of the books I read are not newly published. I see lots of books I would love to read but will have to wait til 100 people in front of me at the library have finished with them. For instance "Teacher Man" had a waiting list of 150 before I put my name down which was only a few days after the library had got their quota in.

Carolyn

I've just finished Evanovich's Twelve Sharp, liked it, not so funny as ther others but still humorous. A lot more of Ranger, which suits me fine, he intriques me. Evanovich just keeps us guessing, is it going to finally be Joe or Ranger?

I'm reading Undaunted Courage again for the discussion; When Harlem was in Vogue by David Lewis which talks about Black history at the beginning of the 20th century and about Harlem's evolution in particular, very interesting. I'm starting again Anne Siddons' Nora, Nora. When i started reading, i realized i had read at least the beginning of it, before, but can't remember if i finished it. I'll give a 20 or so pages and see what i think. I just finished Nora Robts Blue SMoke, good read.

Just a plug for shelter dogs......we've had two wonderful shelter dogs and am about to go looking for another......also love the Dog Whisperer.....jean

Mabel, I have a big interest in Harlem. I will write the title down. I am glad you mentioned it. At one point so many great writers like Langston Hughes, Dorothy West and others found their way to Harlem. At times the word Renaissance is used with Harlem at that period.

Ginny, there's a book by the guy who caught the Getty curator, book just out. It would be a great discussion/read, as I mentioned earlier, although I've only read an excerpt.

Mary, don't worry, just moving beyond certain posts.

My favorite all-time animal book author will always be James Herriot.

I'm reading Cacth-22, All the King's Men, Vishnu and Undaunted Courage, plus some natural history tomes for work.

Kleo

I loved "All the King's Men." I can't remember it now. I do remember the guy was doing his dissertation, can't remember whether he finished it. There is a lot about the falsities of politics in there too, I think. I would love to see the movie. Is there one?

Ginny, if you go, I bet you will really enjoy Egypt. Just imagine all the sights you would see.

Winchesterlady04, thank you for reminding me. I have a copy of Vine of the Heart. I can never spell the author's name. I won't try to do it here.

Yes, Hats, wonderful 1949 black and white directed by Robert Rossen, plus a new one coming out in September, directed by Steven Zaillian.

TRIVIA!!!

Did you know that Mercedes McCambridge, who won a the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress for ATKM, was the voice of the demon Pazuzu in William Friedkin's 1973 The Exorcist?

The nicest thing about Egypt is the people. Every Egyptian I've ever met has been gracious, intelligent, articulate, interested in everything, well informed about the history of their country, and willing to share. I would love to go to Egypt. I don't really know if it's safe, though.

Kleo

Yep, I would worry about the safety too. Thanks for telling about the movies.

dear Mary it says booknook plus. . . don't worry about process. it's product that matters.

I'm reading a 2003 book by Ivan Doig, Prairie Nocturne. His books are mostly autobiographical - at least set in the area of Montana east of Glacier Nat'l Park where he grew up. This story is set in the 1920s. The premise is that of a black ranchhand whose boss realizes that he has a wonderful voice. The rancher hires his one-time lover to teach him how to perfect his singing and to become a concert performer. It's an interesting look at life in that area in the 1920s, and what is happening to the singer as he progresses in his career. He's now in Harlem performing.

Doig's books are wonderfully written. I would recommend all of them.

I need to do some reading about Scotland preparatory to our upcoming trip. And I still have the Harper Lee biography and Patricia Cornwell's titles on my reserve list at the library.

"My favorite all-time animal book author will always be James Herriot." -KleoP

I'm so glad you mentioned him, Kleo. He was a favorite of mine, too. In fact, when my husband and I were in England back in 1982 we made a special trip to Thirsk where he lived and practised in the hopes that we might meet him. He, unfortunately, was out on a call and we of course, did not want to interrupt his very busy day. Thirsk is a lovely little town in north Yorkshire and we happened to be there on Market Day. It was so much fun wondering around even though we didn't meet Dr. Wight/Mr. Herriot.

Mary Z, I will write the title down. Thanks.

and mine from the seventh grade on was always Albert Payson Terhune, responsible for my obsession with COLLIES. . . .claire

picture of terhune and collies

Treve has a whole novel of his own and a beautiful dust cover.

claire

and he gives a nice historical background of how it got to that point.....jean

Remember the story "Lassie Come Home?"

Oh, I would love to walk the places I know so well from books. The PBS show on this did a good job, just channel changing, without knowing their even was a show, I instantly recognized the man in tweeds talking to a woman in front of a row house with a cat in the window, it was my favorite country vet!

The Harlem Renaissance is an interesting literary period. In my Authors of the Lost Generation club we try to include various Harlem Renaissance authors through poetry and novels. One of the most interesting books was Nella Larsen's Quicksand.

Kleo

but not by terhune.

Lassie Come-Home: Eric Knight's Original 1938 Classic

they have it all at AMAZON. This is the lassie we see on TV with the white blaze down his nose.

that isn't the classic look though we see it on shelties, the small version of a collie.

Didn't Nella Larsen also write "Passing?" Jean Toomer is good too. I have read part of Caine. Beautiful writing.

in Hew Jersey the home of Terhune is SUNNYBANKS a park now and most of the streets around there have relevant names one being "Terhune". I told you I"m obsessed. . . .anyway my daughter and I roamed the place and felt for ghosts since it's present in most of his books which are about dogs he and his wife have owned. claire

Yes, she also wrote Passing, a superb story of outsiders.

Claire, what lovely fun.

My single favorite animal book of all time is about a mutt, not a purebred, Margaret Marshall Saunders' Beautiful Joe. I was always a nut about wilderness and people and animal cruelty, so my parents gave me books on these subjects from about 2nd grade. Beautiful Joe made me cry and eventually read Dickens. When I adopted a stray pit bull terrier he looked like I imagined Beautiful Joe while reading and rereading the book all through my childhood. So I named him Beautiful Joe.

And of course I have spent a lifetime repulsed by the habit of butchering dog's ears and tails for show.

Beautiful Joe's Website

Kleo

"Black Beauty" was the book I cried over as a child. I read it over and over again. I am scared stiff of horses but love to admire them from a distance. I particularly love to see the wild horses running free. Majestic!

Carolyn

I loved "Black Beauty." Have I seen the movie? I can't remember. I loved Heidi too.

There were two Heidi books I think. One about Heidi as a child and one when she grew up. Yes Hats Heidi was another childhood favorite of mine. I commiserated with Heidi when she was so unhappy and when she was dumped by her Aunt on her unhappy hermit of a grandfather.

Carolyn

I read every Terhune book as a child. Yet my favorite 'animal' book probably doesn't belong here, as it was not about real animals. But Oh, how I love "Watership Down".

Babi

I loved my sixth grade teacher who read to us after lunch every day. She read Beautiful Joe so expressively we were all crying at the end, even the hard hearted boys! She is also the one who introduced us to Shakespeare by reading from Charles and Mary Lamb's Tales from Shakespeare. I don't think many 6th grade teachers read to their classes these days with all the emphasis on testing, but I used "Miss Beeb" as my model and found time in every class I taught to read a little something, maybe only a poem or a paragraph or two which I thought would interest students. Reading is a life long pleasure for me that I wanted to share with me students, just like "Miss Beeb" did. Sue

Teachers in the schools here read to their pupils every day right up til the kids are around 10 yrs old. The kids love it. I loved my teacher in the equivalent of your first grade ( I was 6) she read a British series "Little Grey Rabbit" to us every day for half an hour before we went home. How we loved to listen to a relaxing story after a tiring school day. My teachers name was Mrs Clapcott. She was softly spoken, gentle and the kids obeyed her and loved her. I can still see her in my minds eye.

Carolyn

I'm still on a David McCullough kick. I finally finished Truman and have just started now on his The Great Bridge about the building of Brooklyn Bridge. Interesting to find out about the design and about Boss Tweed and all the graft. My husband bought me McCullough's first book Johnstown Flood, which I'll start next.

I'm also reading the The Journals of Lewis and Clark edited by Bernard DeVoto to go along with Undaunted Courage. Our SN discussion just started and it's interesting! What a terrific book Undaunted Courage is. I just love it!

Marni

Marni, what is "The Great Bridge" like? Is it very technical? Being written by David McCullough gives me hope that I might understand it. I bet it's really a good book. I just don't understand a lot of construction terms and such.

Carolyn, I didn't know about the Heidi growing up book. I loved grandfather. I think the shepherd's boy name is Peter. I can't remember.

Babi, I want to read "Watership Down" so badly. Isn't it all about rabbits?

Hats, "Watership Down" is a delight! Don't miss it.

Yes Peter was the shepherd. I was so taken by the book as a child that my secret wish was to grow up and marry someone called Peter. lol Actually my very first b/f was called Pierre and I was eleven or twelve... Bubble

Bubble, I wanted to live on a mountain. Now that I am grownup I have a fear of heights!

I will remember you recommended "Watership Down." It's going on my list.

My children loved Watership Down.

Carolyn

I loved Heriots books. But my favorite author of animal books as a child was a small series by Mary ??? who wrote.. Thunderhead and my Friend Flicka.. I was a horse maniac and loved them. Ginny, we went to Egypt.. It is a strange and wonderful place,, loved the tombs and statues and the museum ( I think the new one is done now), but did not like the people particularly. A country run by bribes for everything and having mostly men in public just turned me off.

There is a description of the moonlight on the Downs in Watership Down that, IMO, is one of the most beautifully written pieces of literature I've ever read.

The book is one of my favorites, too, but my older brother hated it. He could never believe in the anthropomorphism of rabbits. No imagination, I guess.

Hats: McCullough's Great Bridge does have some fairly technical information, but a lot of it is about the people who built it or who financed it or took advantage of its construction. It's very interesting and I'm enjoying it and I'm not into technical at all!

HATS, the characters in Watership Down are rabbits, but rabbits with brains, courage, and a strong sense of resonsibility for one another. Don't miss it. I know you'll love it.

Babi

The rabbit I remember best from Watership Down is FIVER. Because rabbits have such large litters, every rabbit born after the first few in a litter is called FIVER. Or maybe it's that the rabbit language has no number for greater than FIVE?

Anyway, I too love this book. Time to read it again, perhaps, since it was years ago when my daughter and I took turns reading it out loud to each other.

Maryal

Years ago I was working part-time in my daughter's high school library. A visiting librarian came to give book talks to some of the students. The first one was about Harry Truman by Merle Miller -- I don't remember the title. Then she introduced the second book -- "You've just heard about a book about a leader. Now I want to tell you about another leader." And her next book talk was about Watership Down and its rabbit leader. Her introduction has just stuck with me through the years.

I vaguely remember reading it as an adult and being surprised that I liked it so much. was it an adventure? I forget. I loved horse books too.Will James wrote one called SMOKY THE COW HORSE and another called THE COWBOY. I inhaled both of them. I remember my friend FLICKA well. A current book about horses is written by the horse whisperer himself Monty Roberts and how he discovered his technique.

As a boy he watched a herd of wild mustangs and observed the mare who was the pack leader (as Cesar would put it)maintain discipline with the you adolescent horses. when one put up a fuss she would chase him out of the herd and keep him out.

herd animals want to be together so eventually when he was allowed to return he behaved himself. this is one of the things that is being emphasized in the Dog Whisperer, remembering the nature of the animal that you seek to control. . . .and probably where the idea came from.

Monty's method was to make the hose want to JOIN UP with him as he stood in the middle of the ring with it on a long line, forcing it with his scary presents to run around the edge, not letting it stop and not looking at it but just using the rope to exert pressure and direction. When he read the ear signs and body signs at a certain point he would adjust his own so that the horse would know that he was willing to be approached, and it would . . .just like that. no violent kicking and bucking necessary at all and usually within an hour or less. wonderful book. The man who listens to horses

see reviewers comment

45002, BR 11288 MAN WHO LISTENS TO HORSES by Monty Roberts (NF) A portrait of Monty Roberts, the horse trainer who discovered a humane technique for taming wild horses. Appalled by traditional methods of breaking horses that he witnessed in his youth, Roberts developed a gentle procedure for joining-up with a horse through a process of man-animal communication. Bestseller.

Claire

Claire: I've seen the show "Dog Whisperer" listed on my TV guide. I've never watched it. Is it a good show? What does it do - teach you how to train your dog?

Yes Yes YES watch it, buy the book, watch it, he's fabulous!!! Just out of this world fabulous! YES!

(er...?)

Oh, goodie. I'll check it out even though my doggie has passed. I used to enjoy that British gal - what was that dog training show where the teacher called out, "WALKIES!" I love that word. "WALKIES!"

Yes Yes I loved her too, you will absolutely be entranced with Cesar!! We're thinking of discussing him in his new series in October in our PBS Program Clubs thing, he's HOT HOT HOT, his book is out of this world, it's beautiful. YES! (watch tonight's show be a dog!!) ahahaha

IF so next week he's on at 8 pm followed by a new show on veternarians.

If you spend enough time with your doggie its not hard to learn to understand and communicate with them. The dog I brought up myself has an amazing understanding of language and what it means. Because she was with me from the night of Rods funeral and I felt so alone I talked to her constantly. She was my 24/7 companion.

With minding all the other bichons I learned so much about dog behaviours and how anxieties etc show themselves in a dog. My wee doggie that was rehomed with me when she was 5 used to pee with anxiety if anyone went to pick her up. Naturally it was a big problem with the groomer etc. Within one year she was cured. My groomer said she had done it since she was three months old. It has since come out she was abused in her other home. I knew it was anxiety.

Its a wonderful thing to be totally trusted by an animal. I get such a kick out of the way my feral cat Pansy has bonded to me and how much she trusts me now to handle her. Unfortunately I am the only person she trusts. Ruth would love to handle her but she will not have a bar of it.

I will have to get the book you are talking about.

Carolyn

If she were a dog and cesar worked with you . . .you would learn that YOU must be the packleader and make the rules not her. . .watch the show you'll see what I mean. . .claire

Thanks to all of you for recommending, The Dog Whisperer! I watched it tonight for the first time, and loved it. Cesar is warm and gentle, as you said, and so much fun to watch. The most amazing transformation that I saw tonight was the Sharpei (sp?) who was going crazy barking and leaping up in front of the TV set. I had always heard that dogs didn't really see the television, but obviously NOT True! My favorite dog was the Shihtzu who wouldn't walk on the leash. He was so adorable I wanted to reach into the TV set and grab him!

My granddaughter loves to watch Animal Planet Channel, which I had never seen until she stayed here overnight a few years ago. I was fascinated, and have enjoyed it ever since. I especially like Animal Police or Animal Cops. (Both rescue type shows.) There are so many good shows on AP, that you can tune in anytime and get instantly hooked on any show.

Ginny, I am behind in all the discussions and readings. I am hurrying to catch up. Thanks for your patience.

me too, Hats! Me too. We appreciate you and all of our readers, but isn't it fun!

Marilyne, I can't wait to see it, I had to tape it, am doing a new garden in this 102 degree heat and just went to bed early, so glad it was a good one, I think we must do a discussion on him, you must read his book, it's wonderful, just like he is!

I'm reading Stanley Wolpert's India for the Vishnu discussion, and I sure wish I had done what I was SUPPOSED to have done and read him for the last course in India I took, he's wonderful. I thought it was another "academic tome" and could barely keep up with the class as it was, so I let it slide: but it's NOT.

I love the way he writes, like sitting down with an old friend who knows something and can explain it, I love his book (assuming of course you are interested in the subject), he's written a lot of them.

Still enjoying Cesar Millan's My Way, (The Dog Whisperer) what an inspiration he is, what a success story. Guy is HOT HOT HOT.

If we do discuss him, we'll write him on his website so he'll know it.

Love the interesting books you all are reading, I have never read Watership Down, I don't know what it IS about new books everybody raves over, for some reason I can't seem to start them and when I finally come to them years later, (and I still haven't come to IT) THEN I finally know what everybody is talking about! THEN!! But it's too LATE then.

Right now with the heat the way it is here on the East Coast, I really want something that will take me away from where I am, to a different place of interesting characters and doings, the more remote, the more strange, the more odd, the better. I like strange things. Each night in bed I return to the comedy of Edwardian Manners, E.F. Benson's Mapp & Lucia series, now up to the 4th book. I just love that series. Benson was the son of the Archbishop of Canterbury and a scholar in his own right, his little light adventures are peppered with classical references, they are delightful. Two women struggle to gain control of a town socially: very inconsequential but VERY telling on many counts. Right now they are both running for Mayor in the tiny (real) town of Tilling in Sussex, England. (Rye). They are funny, cool and light, just the thing for night time reading, especially with the house popping and snapping in the heat, I expect to wake up one morning at the very bottom of the hill (as my sons used to say when they were small) and I may yet, the whole wing of the house might just slide off one day.

Speaking of odd and different and funny, have you read David MacCauley's Motel of the Mysteries, by any chance? hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa It spoofs archaeology, it's not new, but if you've ever wondered what future archaeologists might make of OUR society, read it.

Oh heavens, I used to have Motel of the Mysteries in the store. It is a hoot. But now its spooky, I can see where it will probably happen. Oh Ginny, is the heat still there. We are leaving tomorrow and will be in Cherokee,NC on Monday. We looked and looked on the weather.com and it seems to be cooler there and further north in the mountains. I just want to be cooler for a few days, then back to the good old fiery Florida. I just finished a MC Beaton which is not a series. An odd little book about a man and woman who discover a whole new life due to finding some money.. Some bad guys of course, but mostly touching about the quality of life for them.

Stephanie, it should be cooler in Cherokee because it's in the mountains. But it was 100* here in Chattanooga yesterday before thunderstorms hit and dropped the temp 20* in an hour. It's still predicted to be in the 90s for the next week. I hope you get some comfortable weather.

GINNY, where is this 'Dog Whisperer' on view? I don't remember seeing anything like that in the TV listings. I don't have Cable, so that may be why.

"WATERSHIP DOWN" isn't a new book. It's been around for a good while. It's one you read for the simple pleasure of it.

Babi

BaBi - "The Dog Whisperer", is on the National Geographic channel, which is a digital cable channel for me. I have to keep my TV off during the day or I get hooked on the wonderful and informative programs on NatGeo, Science Channel, History, Animal Planet or Discovery. This morning I sat down with my coffee to watch the news, but I paused at the Discovery Health channel, and watched an amazing true story on the separation of conjoined twins. They introduce you to the baby twins and the family before the operation, and then follow through the surgery, (in the OR), then the the final outcome, (Mostly good, but some not so good) and then months later you see the two babies. It brought tears to my eyes.

Ginni, I grabbed the latest issue of Archaeology in BN to look at the article. It is an excerpt from the book I mentioned earlier, The Medici Conspiracy: The Illicit Journey of Looted Antiquities--From Italy's Tomb Raiders to the World's Greatest Museums by Peter Watson and Cecilia Todeschini.

Kleo

Kleo, are you still interested in the Ottomans? After something like My Name Is Red, I found myself keen to know more. But not TOO heavy. So didn't I find a couple of things at the GOODWILL store the other day, for a couple of bucks. Lots of seniors are always going through the bins. What you can't get for a buck. Better than Charing Cross, or Hay-on-Wye. Even the Fourteenth St. place in NYC. The Sultans, by Noel Barber. And, of course, Harold Lamb's Suleiman the Magnificent. But I can't tear myelf away from the adventures of Vishnu and his friends...

Yes, Jonathan. I have the Lamb, and I have a course reader from a class at Berkeley last year on the late Ottoman empire that I am perusing.

It's a fascinating history, so much a part of Western history, yet so unknown to most of the West.

Kleo

I am very interested in the book talked about in Kleo's last post. Kleo, is that a coffeetable book or just a regular hardback book? If a new book, how much is it? It sounds like a fun book for discussion.

Hats, it's not a coffee table book, it's designed to be read. I saw it yesterday at BN and it's 26.95, I believe. It just came out in hardback. Yes, as I said in my first post, I think it would make a great discussion because of the importance of getting the word out what is going on in the world of antiquities. It is outrageous to me that world class museums would stain themselves by contributing to the international market in our world's greatest treasures.

Yes, it would be a great book for discussion.

Kleo

Ann, are we still thinking about a discussion about "Where God Was Born?" The one by Bruce Feiler. I gained so much from the "Abraham" discussion.

I recently got interested in Humanities and thought I would study it online. However it turns out to be too an expensive a deal for me with a fixed income. Does anyone know of textbooks used in such a college level course? I figure I could read a textbook on it perhaps. Is there any list of books considering the Humanities? Ann

Ann Thamm--

The humanities is a very broad area. In a narrow definition, it's the study of languages, literature, the arts, history, and philosophy. The humanities encompass the study of human beings and their culture. Could you narrow it down a little? Are you interested in literature or history or philosophy? Or perhaps one of the arts?

Maryal

I put 'Freshman Humanities' in Google ansd found this course description with a list of texts.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mazz747/id11.html

Another site with a book list:
http://facweb.eths.k12.il.us/holmest/freshman_humanities_enriched.htm

seem to deal mostly with the use of language, and literature. Literature within the scope of history and also the arts are more like it. Our own discussion on THE STORY OF CIVILIZATION has some of that although with a heavy epaiss on religion and warfare, the emphasis on politics as related to those areas opens the door to the arts as well.

As an art major along with the psych minor I learned a lot about history because it related to the period in which the art was produced and there were several courses in art history itself that did this. . .so my approach would be to study history through the arts . . all of them. . .anyhow you will have a good time doing whatever you choose to do. . .claire

with only a study of literature as HUMMANITIES. It's very limited in scope and hard for me to identify in this day and age. For one thing the style of writing is often stilted or at least not what I"m used to so I find it strange and meaningless. Our thinking has changed radically to in terms of human rights and expectations.

It would be more interesting to pick one aspect of human cultural developement or CIVILIZATION which I equate with humanities and use it to learn about the others. . . . claire

Our grands at The College of Charleston took a course called Western Civilization. I wonder if that might be the type of course that you're referring to as Humanities.

These are the courses offered there under the heading Humanities and the Arts. http://www.cofc.edu/academics/index.html#humanities You might have to scroll down a bit.

but where are the ARTS. They reflect what is going on in the rest of the subjects. . claire

No argument from me about that, Claire!

A good western civ course at any college or university should provide info on the arts, music, architecture, literature, philosophy as well as history. But the survey courses may not be in depth enough for what you want to explore. I suggest you look at any western civ or world history text - you can find them on-line or at the library and then take out of it the precise topics you are interested in to explore further, either in the library or on-line - you will find far more sites than you can ever possibly get to on-line covering all of the topics.

If you have a community college near you, the Humanities Dept would probably send you a copy of their curriculum, or tell you how to get to it on-line, and may have free tuition for senior citizens to take courses.........jean

is this right for music? you forgot the .com part got the internet engine all confused. Personally I like Classical Music archives not sure if that's gonna get anyone there but it's extensive and partially free if you like classical.

edit: http://www.classicalarchives.com

that should do it.

Jean, I agree with you about the survey courses -- a good overview, but perhaps not enough depth. However, a good introduction as also worthwhile.

I said it before in "My Name is REd," and I'll say it here. That book, although fiction, would be a great frame for an in-depth semester study of that particular area, that particular period of history. Perfect for lots of multimedia as well as reading and discussion.

Yesterday I had fun surfing the net to find poetry suitable for my grandaughter who I am tutoring at the moment. She is 9. I found a wonderful NZ resource for teachers. It has modern and classical kids poetry. Each poem is printable with new illustrations. The poems are all printed in big print. They are really attractive. I found a couple of poems I did for my elocution exams when I was a child and four modern poems which are great fun. My grandaughter is dyslexic and I am taking over from her SPELD tutor as she has really taken my grandaughter as far as she can. The poems are to help with her short term memory problems.

We are really having fun in our lessons together and her Mum says she enjoys coming. Her sister came with her on Sunday but there was no nonsense as I set work for the 6yr old too and told her that my house is a classroom on Sunday mornings therefore there was no talking while they did compositions etc The 6 yr old has no learning problems and likes to be really stretched with school work. They were both really good and we got a lot done.

We do spelling first. When the new words are learnt my grand has to put all the words into a composition to show me she knows what they mean and that she can spell them. The composition has to be imaginative. We do have some laughs when we read the finished product.

Carolyn

To change the subject -- one of travel's joys is to read newspapers of the area. Yesterday's Seattle Times/Post-Intelligencer was a real treasure trove.

At age 72, Gloria Steinem is writing her memoir, a book that will chronicle her 35 years of battles all over the country, and her fights for candidates, women's rights, equality and choice. That should be interesting. And, she is writing it at Hedgebrook, a retreat for women writers on Whidbey Island in Puget Sound, along with six other women writers who are there for a month-long stay -- including a graduate student from Oakland working on a novel set in Iran and a writer from New Delhi working on her second novel, Don't we wonder who that might be.

Hedgebrook

And then, for Chihuly fans, a series in the times which you might want to read -- or not.

Inside the glass empire

Seattle Times -- for more in the series

Pedl - could only get the Inside...page. Absolutely fascinating. I hate to hear sometimes the reality of those that I admire. Thanks for this posting.

Kathy

Pedln, thank you for the articles. I love the name "Hedgebrook." I bet a writer's retreat is so relaxing and creative too.

another change of subject. does anyone know anything about this concept other than that the whole universe past present and future in terms of space as well as time can be understood in terms of this one concept or word. . .In surfing the net I found the official site for string theory with friendly explanations for terms and concepts and I'm trying to understand it.

also books available at Amazon for math/physics/SPACE DUMMIES

makes one think and after all we were all bred to do that HOMO SAPIENS the wise man/woman. . . claire

What do you want to know, Claire?

Kleo

pedln, thanks for the Chihuly links. I've set them aside to read later. We're great fans of his work and exhibits, regardless of how they get done.

lots of things. how comme einstein is the father of al our electronic gismos. . .how come he is now considered to have been wrong when he said or was it him that the speed of light is constant and we used it to place objects in space. m daughter sent me the url for an article about the size of the universe now found to be fifteen percent larger than it was.

the math and physics used to explain phenomena is a man made construction, an abstraction, just like religion and not even constant and yet for many purposes it works for us.

a little thing. how do we type a fraction without using a slash mark to separate the numberator from the denominator?

so we are dealing with nature, not understanding how it works, constructing a system to manipulate it that seems to work but is arbitrary at best and varies from scientist to scientist.

and currently I'm studying stuff I find here

http://www.superstringtheory.com

so Kleo what's your connection with all of this? . . .claire

can't follow you but I did go to the Seattle Times and saw this cam shot of seattle and some interesting color immages. do you know what it is?

looking west seattle at ???? claire

Not pedln, Claire, but I think that's the Space Needle that was built when they had a World's Fair in Seattle a number of years ago. We've been there, and there's a restaurant in the top, which revolves slowly. If I remember correctly, we did eat dinner there one night.

Einstein added a cosmological constant to postulate a stationary universe, he later said it was totally wrong, scientists aren't so sure he's totally wrong. I'm interested in Quantum Mechanics, it's a fascinating subject, not particularly string theory or unified theories of the universe or the Big Bang or anything, but get down to explaining the energies of the nuclei of atoms in any of this and I'm along for the ride.

Claire, this is a picture of the Space Needle at the Seattle Center, just northwest of downtown Seattle, built for the 1963ish World's Fair, looking at the Olympic Mountains.

Kleo

Everytime I hear Quantum Mechanics explained I keep thinking. It is all just theory. I don't know if I am convinced about some of the theories.

about quantum mechanics plus.... Discovery channel got me going on it and my first search on line brought me here

http://www.superstringtheory.com

I want to understand the concept, the math is only a tool but in at least one case the tool became the product.

a scientist working in string theory included gravity in his calculations and was finally abe to get both sides of his equation to come out the same. All his colleagues got excited and di the same thing, but their calculations must have been personal to them plus gravity because at least seven of them with like results were of different numbers.

It makes me think that the whole study is a toy and that we still don't know what is actually going on.

OUR expectations for atomic behavior are complete thrown off when we get into the nanosphere....tiny world. . kleo what have you been working with, reading. and how did you get interested and KiWi you too.

I've done a couple of paintings of space because ti's always seems so exciting to me that it goes on endlessly because how could it not big bang suggests that at the beginning there was something small which just kept expanding but what did it exist IN. . .ending with but unavoidable PREPOSITION?

I will surely read Glorias book when finished. She is slightly older than I am, but was in the forefront of the fight. She also writes well. We are on the road and are in Cherokee,NC. We are in the coach, so are staying at a very very large resort type rv park. Fascinating to watch all of the activities. Buses going back and forth. tubing and white water rafting, gambling, outdoor shows.. A lot of stuff to do, but we are really here to just relax a bit.

Claire that is the space needle but it is taken from a very strange angle almost looks fake. That hotel that I think says Holiday inn I don't even know where its at.

has odd colored shapes in the sky and it just occured to me that it was taken from inside through a large window and that the shapes are reflections from inside the room.

KLEO There is a course that Jan told me about and the description is to long for a post so I'll e-mail it to you if you want me too. . .claire

I JUST SENT YOU THE COURSE DISCRIPTION. it's quite long I could quote it here if enough want me to. It's about the application of quantu mechanics coming first and then the theory behind it. the reverse of the way it is usually taught. . .

and suits my desire to simply show how all this solid state stuff works. nope I'm not going to take the course but I might try to find the text and haver a look at it. First I need to extend in math and physics though. SHEESH. just may not be worth it. i.e. what is TUNNELING.claire

Carolyn: "Every time I hear Quantum Mechanics explained I keep thinking. It is all just theory. I don't know if I am convinced about some of the theories."

Carolyn, "just a theory" is sometimes used to discredit theories. But remember, theories explain and predict, they're tools, like hammers and wrenches. Quantum Mechanics explains accurately enough what is going on in the nucleus of an atom to design particle accelerators that show on film that what we can explain mathematically is what we actually see going on.

Claire, "not about the photo not the location but the colors and shapes in the sky???"

Judy, my guess is on Westlake looking west somewhere just north of Denny Way--think about it for a minute.

Claire, since it's a web cam what you saw when you posted it might not be what we see now. Seattle is far enough north to have somewhat remarkable sunsets, occasional extraordinary ones.

"OUR expectations for atomic behavior are complete thrown off when we get into the nanosphere....tiny world. . kleo what have you been working with, reading. and how did you get interested."

But that's what is so beautiful about Quantum Mechanics, it explains what we will see in the itty bitty world, eventually leading us to predict all those tiny subatomic particles with funky names. I studied it in school. I worked in the nuclear industry for a while and became interested in how nuclear reactors work, then studying geology I also studied geochronology.

Yes, to the course, Claire.

Kleo

long ago at UCLA. every time we took a trip I was observing the road cuts. here in CA we have just about every kind of formation. and then when I visited my daughter in New York a whole different collection. The physical history of the earth itself I found poetic and fascinating. . .Claire

from a course description a quote. . .the part that interested me anyhow.

Even more importantly, the courses for physics students are focused on
fundamentals of the formal theory, rather than applications. The proposed course, instead, will teach the fundamentals underlying the operation of modern electronic and photonic solid-state devices. The ambition of this course is to take quantum mechanics out of the theory books into a real world of modern and next-generation semiconductor devices, using practical engineering examples throughout. An important role of this course will be to give students a solid foundation for other microelectronics and photonics courses. Because of its applied nature, this course can also attract students from Campus Valla who might find existing quantum mechanical courses too general and far remote from their interests. This course can also be suitable as a Ph.D. course at Campus Norrk??ping.

Claire, ah, this loses me. I'm firmly grounded in the abstract and theoretical. I got your e-mail. Thanks.

Kleo

CAROLYN, you are doing a marvelous job of tutoring your granddaughter. I can easily see how each of the steps and materials you are using helps to strengthen her where she most needs it. When your granddaughter 'graduates', I hope you will offer your tutoring skills to other students with problems.

KLEO, what fascinates me about sub-atomic physics is the knowledge that absolutely everything begins with these basic forms of energy. From stone to humanity, the basic 'material' is the same. Getting from the quark to the ultimate result necessarily implies a pattern in place from the start. What fascinating things that implies.

Babi

First let me thank all of you for the wonderful replies. I realize now that it is really a broad subject and I must narrow it down..probably to art and literature. I am interested in different cultures. I have been online and have a couple of lists to work with as I decide what I really want to find out about humanities! I also have subscribed from the government printing office for the magazine Humanities. Its online as well and should direct me even further. The magazine has an article online about the World War II serviceman reading comic books.(July August issue) I wonder if the fighting man today has a favorite reading book. I know they are also online when possible. Thanks again...It all should keep me busy for awhile. Ann

Babi,

"What fascinating things that implies."

Amen to that.

Kleo

You might be interested in the informational discussion about SeniorNet's Birthday Anniversary Conference in October> - going on right now. You are all invited!

I am always interested when some of our participants bring up scientific topics since we don't have a lot of activity in our science discussions. I hope that some of you will post about your interests and the educational resources you are finding in our Astronomy and Space Programs or Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry and Other Sciences discussions.

I just went and subscribed will explore later. right now sore ieyes and a doctors appointment. this place continues to keep me interested one way or another. . . .claire

Babi - I love seeing children reach their potential. I am excited about introducing Brooke and Grace to some really neat poetry. There is one about an elephant I must repeat it here. This is one of the poems I got from the teachers resource site on the net.

Eletelephony by Laura Richards

Once there was an elephant

Who tried to use the telephant

No! No! I mean an elephone

Who tried to use the telephone -

(Dear me I am not certain quite

That even now I"ve got it right)

Howe'er it was, he got his trunk

Entangled in the telephunk

The more he tried to get it free

The louder buzzed the telephee

(I fear I'd better drop the song

Of elephop and telephong!)

The sheet has a picture of an elephant dropping a large telephone from his trunk. I really loved it and I think the girls will think it fun.

Carolyn

What a wonderful use of play with words, Carolyn - thanks!

Carolyn - great poem! Look up Shel Silverstein. He has written many poems that children/adults will like.

Kathy

Carolyn, that was fun! I wish I still had a small child around I could introduce to that one!

Babi

Many of you read My name is Read and participated in that discussion.

There is an interview with Pamuk in todays NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/multimedia/conversation.html?th&emc=th

Bubble thank you.

I picked up "A fine balance by Rohinton Mistry" at the libray today to read and discuss soon with our group. I read the first chaper on line and was hooked.

Sorry, I am in the wrong place posting.

My Brother Tommy gave me a book just came out titled " The Surreal " By Sandi Marchetti Crocker. Tommy knowing how much I like reading new books before anyone else, so I can be a know it all in the community I live in. I always take 2 or 3 days to finish a book but this book kept me going ALL NIGHT. I COULD NOT STOP READING !!! If you like books that keep you going because you can't wait to find out whats going to happen next I would recommend The Surreal highly. If you take my suggestion and go on Amazon and buy the book please let me know what you think of The Surreal.

Nanook--is that an advertisement for a self-published book? If the ad is any example, I won't bother to look at the book.

Kleo

Kleo--The publisher is PublishAmerica, so it is self-published. You also can't find it if you type the title into Amazon. You have to type in the author to get a hit.

The self-publish and spam book clubs to get them to score Amazon hit points has to be the most offensive and least interesting genre in all of literature.

I don't bother even checking any more, Deems, just recognize by the low quality and the spam quality what it is.

Kleo

Never even thought about the point, Kleo. I'll remember next time. I agree that you can generally tell by the "announcement."

Hold on a minute, please. I'm a good writer; couldn't find a publisher and went to PublishAmerica. It's very hard to find a publisher unless you know somebody or have published a book before, you know. Two of my novels have been published by them. Robert Haseltine, Virginia Bickel and Emma L. Willey, members of the Writers Exchange WREX, also have had books published by PublishAmerica. I have read the work of these writers, have even edited some ot it, have published quite a bit of it in my electronic literary magazines and know for fact that their writing is good, if not superior.

I suggest that before anyone starts to criticize what has been called "self-published books" here that he or she read one or two first.

Thanks.

Mal

I'm not criticizing self-published books, just the spam for them. In every book club I've ever been in people join the club to put up a single post that always sounds exactly the same about their self-published book, they're not here to discuss their book or any other, it's simply an advertisement to get people to boost their rankings on Amazon. They're poorly worded and uninteresting.

As you don't fit any of these categories, Mal, spammer, here only once to spam about your book, poorly worded or written or similarly written single post in dozens of web book clubs about your book, my post is not about you. I have read a post by you about one of your books--it looked nothing like yesterday's spam.

It wasn't really about people, either, as the person who made the post didn't stick around to read or respond to any comments. They just spammed us.

Kleo

Kleo I would not mind a bit if a self published author came in here and told us all about their book and how they came to write it. However I agree that the post we got here the other day was spam.

Carolyn

Carolyn, and hung around and discussed the book. Yup, wouldn't bother me at all. What bothers me is the advertising by someone who joined only to advertise.

Kleo

Just a reminder again that SeniorNet Policy does not permit advertising of any kind posted on this website.

They make ONE exception and that is for authors who are free to talk about their books at any length in our Author's Corner (qv), where we can see many published authors have posted already.

We've been busier than a mosquito at a nudist convention in the Classics area getting ready for the Fall Term, pulling long hour days so my reading is really suffering.

I did get A Month on the Lake and other stories by H.E. Bates, whom Pedln mentioned in the Books Into Movies and I like him, very much. Had never heard of him. Of course with the movie sort of flooding your consciousness, the story, which is different in many subtle ways, takes on new nuances, but Bates seems to like to write with a view toward Fanfare for the Common Man, the second story was about a waitress. He wrote that sort of thing long before Nickel and Dimed, I like his writing, but would like to finish the book before I am sure. Also from the UK I have gotten (I did not realize it had to come from the UK) his The Jacaranda Tree, and I'm looking forward to reading it, too.

So! A long hot summer, but Stephanie will find it's cooled off in the mountains. I had to laugh at an editorial cartoon a week or so ago, when it was so hot everywhere, two guys are entering Hell naked in the flames and doing high fives and saying "AT LAST! Relief from the heat!" Hahahahaa and one of the devils says to the other in an aside, "Another one from South Carolina." Ahahaha

Yes indeed, it's been hot. And so have our Books discussions, which surprises me, that's not the norm for us in the summer and they are going fabulously, lots of great stuff anywhere. If you're an ART (Armchair Reader Traveler) you are all over the place this summer in the Books, in India with the Vishnu and the coming A Fine Balance, in Spain with Don Quixote, in Amsterdam with Rembrandt, out West with Lewis and Clark, all over the world with the Durants, discussing Darwin's theories, reading Edna St. Vincent Millay in our Poetry discussion, and discussing The History Detectives in our PBS discussions. That's a full slate and we have a famous bestselling author in Matthew Pearl making a repeat visit to us in September in The Poe Shadow and an adjunct discussion of Poe stories, looks like a big fall to me!

We have more discussions on the way in, a fabulous new project to tell you about you will be proud to be part of, almost 5,000 books donated to the Prison Library Project and more on the way, almost 4,000 books exchanged in our Book Exchange, we're SMOKIN' here (it's so hot??)

Kleo, for my part, I was a bit disappointed in the Medici Conspiracy or whatever the title is (I do have the book but keep calling it the wrong thing for some reason). I think that it's a hatchet job, I especially noticed it in the case of some of the principals who would not talk to the author, and so he sort of does a job on them, does sort of this bizarre one sided "dialogue," quoting their earlier statements and then responding, turning to US and saying well that sure doesn't look like XXX and YYY, does it? Sort of disputes "with" them when they aren't there to answer, and uses all sorts of... derisive labels, I really dislike that kind of journalism but I'm going to finish it before I decide for good. I am also disappointed in the black and white photos, at least in Archaeology they are in color and they are glorious, too.

We've been talking about this issue here on SeniorNet since back in February when the WSJ did a balanced piece on the Tombaroli (tomb robbers), I do think it's a disgrace to break up deliberately beautiful works of antiquity to get more money for them (LOOK! We have all the pieces, too). Shameful, but I'm not sure all of the people involved with any museum are in that camp tho or should be tarred with that brush. That's my opinion so far on it, but it may change.

I picked up a book the NY Times went on about called Half Broken Things by Morag Joss, apparently a mystery in a manor house type thing, a new British author, have any of you read it?

My book on the Crown Princess of Korea came and it's unbelievable, this voice speaking (in translation) is so real, it's fascinating and quite a world, so far it's as good as The Last Emperor. I had no idea (I don't know why) that Korea had any kind of dynasty. I don't know a lot about Korea. But I will apparently. ahahaha

But it's so hot and I am finding for my own part it's easier to get into short stories or things like, ironically, the journal or memoirs of a Korean Princess, than to start a long book. I wonder why? Do you have days like that?

It's been quite a while since we did any kinds of short stories here in the Books. I AM looking forward to the Lady of Shalott in October and we'll pair it with Drabbles The Seven Sisters, wouldn't Tennyson be shocked? Hahahah (Or would he?) The nice thing about the Drabble is nobody knows what she said, or, at the end, what really did happen. I like that.

There was quite a large article in, I think it was, USA Today last week on your INBOX for email. How your inbox, that is, the way it looks, actually mirrors your own life. Is it overflowing with mail? Neatly arranged and organized? The authors of the piece said it shows you what you are personality wise, do you agree with that? (I'm dead, personally hahaha if that is so.).

How about your bookshelves? Are THEY arranged in any sort of fashion? Do THEY reflect YOUR personality? I remember somebody huffing about the Duke and Duchess of Windsor's "library" how books were chosen for their appearance, etc. I also remember what they brought at auction too.

Do you try to arrange your books on your bookshelves in any way at all? Alphabetically? By cover colors? By Fiction/ Non Fiction, etc? Just thrown in? Are any of you victims of the DDS Syndrome? (Dreaded Double Shelving). How many of us, admit it, have some stacked on the floor? Admit it!

What do our own bookshelves tell about US? Remember when people would peruse, while waiting for the butler to fetch their hosts, the bookshelves of their hosts to see what they could learn about them? hahahaa What would people learn about you from your bookshelves?

(People would learn I have a 1968 Encyclopedia Britannica set), if they could read the labels on it hahaaha

Le bookshelf, c'est moi? Or not?

Ginny, John has always said he could tell a lot about folks by looking at their bookshelves.

I must confess - I am organized enough that I try to keep our books semi-organized by subject, i.e., travel stuff, art stuff, keep-no-matter-what stuff, etc. But things are double-shelved (didn't know the term, but it's self-explanatory), and piled on the floor and on the hearth and in sacks in the corners. Oh, dear......

Hmm. My bookshelves tend to get a bit carried away, but I am a genealogist and date back to before internet access. My genealogy books and notes are heavily organized, but after that, you would learn, I tend to collect authors.. love paperbacks. save mostly science fiction and mysteries that can be reread. I get rid of 75% of my newer stuff as I read it. Found alovely paperback swap group, so that helps. My husband and I in retirement share an office, so it is sort of bipolar. He is a typical Swiss descendent and his half is clean,tidy, everything in its place. Mine has regular computer, genealogy laptop( old, but holds many many records), wi-fi computer that goes with us when we travel. printer ( two, but only one works). paper, all of the little stuff life needs. clocks, pictures of things that interest me.. mostly corgi. telephone.. bookshelves overloaded. You got it.. His is lovely.. Mine is not so, but I know where things are. ( well mostly).

Double-shelved? Stacked? You bet!!

My books started out organized when the world was young. But, how do you know how much space to give to each thing? What happens when you run out of space? They've gotten more and more chaotic over the years. Now, I can't find anything. And since I can no longer go upstairs, I don't have access to many of my books, and have no idea what's up there.

I do give away books, but only when I move -- and I haven't moved for 35 years. So, you can imagine!

Hi, all. Have been busy moving and am still not all settled but will be catching up this week. There are so many posts to read! Missed you. Jackie

I'm still laughing about Ginny's post. "...busier than a mosquito at a nudist convention..." hahaha I love it! I sent it to my husband at work.

And DDS syndrome! That's me! Love the name! It's so hard to get rid of books. I take many out from the library so we don't have them around, but we still seem to collect more constantly. My husband doesn't like to give them up after he's read them, either. We always fight about it. We have jillions. Not on the floor, though, thank goodness. Now I have to have my bedroom done over - entirely - new ceiling, walls, carpeting, etc. due to water damage from a storm. So we have to move everything out temporarily. It's my opportunity to get rid of stuff - like books!

I've given books to the library; I've set them out in boxes in front of the house with a sign "Free Books." I should check the Prison Library site to see how that works.

Any other ideas?

Marni

Marni, donating to the library in a retirement complex or nursing home would be another possibility.

Thanks, Mary. That's a good idea!

I do a bit of haphazard organization. I keep my natural history and science books together because I use them for work. My fiction is divided a bit into sci-fi, westerns, Lost Generation authors, and then everything else.

Ah, stacked on floor? Ginny, exactly what do you think staircases are so wide for, if not to line the outside with books?

I don't think anyone suspects all the folks at all museums are tainted, yet some museums have put themselves into serious question about their ethics, in particular the Getty. I haven't looked into the book, just glanced at it, but color pictures add quite a bit to the expense of a book, so I'll stick with bare bones and less cost. I did not see the WSJ article.

The really big return question will not be the Elgin Marbles, but the Rosetta Stone.

Kleo

Double-shelved? You bet. But first, which floor are they on? Most of the current stuff is on first floor, but the basement bookcase yields up books long forgotten. And the bedrooms upstairs have the 1972 World Book, plus all the kids collections (even after the grands have helped themselves) and the living room rejects.

Now, 'fess up y'all. What do you put on the living room shelves? Books that will impress? Books that match the decor and colors of the room? Books on the shelf to balance out the pottery and sculpture?

Someday I must get organized. Right now it's limited to a shelf of the yet unread.

and that situation has been going on for years even after several moves when I just shoved boxes around. found old family photos the other day and my fathers letters because someone wanted them, but everything else is as was. . .sheesh. that took a week or so.

the living room is a studio for my art so art books go there and unread fiction given to me by someone else and how to do and nature books so Ican find them. there are three more bookcases, smal ones in the guest room, den and bedroome. one corner of the den one gets books read and waiting to trade or send here which doesn't happen often since I get credit for them when traded at local paper back exchange. I almost never re-read fiction but keep classics and watch tv and play here too often to even get to all of that. much less organize it. claire

I keep my natural history and science books in my office and keep classics and general fiction and the most current nonfiction in the living room, usually, so that if someone wants to borrow something to read, especially if a family member comes by, it's handy. I also keep books that are fun to show people in the living room, one of my favorites being Edward R. Tufte's series and older geology books and regional geologies not relevant to my current research--books on outcrops of the Grand Canyon, badlands, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis and Russian books on rocks and cartography.

I have too many books to waste shelf space on pottery and sculpture--it balances out the tv/vcr/dvd player. I guess my most impressive collection of fiction would be the now huge assortment of books of the Lost Generation authors. It does look impressive all together--but I keep it in my bedroom. Maybe I will dress the bookshelves downstairs to impress with this collection now that Pedln mentions it.

Kleo

I used to make the stuff. I never did make books but I did make a lot of art and collect from friends who did/do. so their stuff gets displayed and some of mine but most of it is in boxes in the shelves I had constructued in the garage. I give it to friends too and store a lot of the ceramics that are waterproof outside in the patio on those black metal shelves you can get for shops at Sears. been carting those around with me for years. storage is really the problem for an artist. I love books though and wouldn't store them in the garage or ian the patio. . . .claire

I must confess that the books on my family room shelves where most guests gather are better categorized and in better shape than those in other rooms, on shelves, in bags, in cabinets, on tables--you get the idea. I have kept a number of children's books to use when I do a presentation at the Gulf Coast Writing Conference. These I keep in banker's boxes in my utility room. It makes it easier to tote them to the conference. I gave up quite a few books (about 2000 paperbacks) when I moved here. I kept only a few gardening books which I keep on display in my guest room.

In my family room, I have the birding books together, nice looking cookbooks on a separate shelf, children's books--the newer and fresher ones, mysteries and westerns my husband loved, travel guides. Most of these are grouped together by genre and I have family pictures, fossils from my son's shop, Indian pottery collected when we live in the west, vases from my grandmother's home--well you get the picture. Sort of an attractive and semi-organized jumble. Sue

a while back I got hooked on Louis L'Amour and now I have a box full of westerns which I may never read again since I don't usually reread fiction but I did love them so they are still here in a box. ancient history, but what can you do?

My late husband loved Louis L'Amour and had a full collection of his paperbacks. My sons chose the ones they hadn't read, then I let a lot of them go to a friend who has a used book store. I was downsizing and couldn't take everything. Bob had built shelves which fit paperbacks along all the walls in one room in our barn and both of us kept books we liked to reread. I hated to get rid of them, but it was necessary. Sue

I gave away all my books except my favorites years ago. I have one shelf for loved paperbacks and one for hard covers. I have Big folders in there too with my own writing and poetry in them. I don't buy many books these days. I borrow them from the library. My budget really does not stretch to too many book purchases these days they are very expensive here.

Carolyn

Me, too, Carolyn. Thank goodness for the libraries! The only books I buy now are the ones I really want to keep.

Babi

It was a wrenching experience, but I have sold most of my books on ebay! I asked my three adult kids to pick whatever they wanted, and told them that I was going to ebay the rest. They only picked a few unlikely titles, which left many for me to auction off. Some went for a good price, and others didn't even get a bid.

Some that I haven't yet parted with are the Oz books that were given to me on every birthday, by my grandmother, starting in 1939 and on through about 1945. They are such beautiful books with illustrations by John Neill. The reason I will eventually go ahead and sell them too, is that it will make me feel good to know that they will be going to someone - some unknown stranger - who will cherish them, and hopefully love them as much as I did. What's the point of keeping them here until I'm gone, and my kids will probably just give them to the Goodwill or sell them for 50 cents in a garage sale.

Besides those treasures, I also have other children's books from the 1940's that were published during WWII. So the paper is of poor quality, and has browned over the years. I don't know if they're worth anything or not? I have a huge box of Nancy Drew's and Cherry Ames. that I haven't looked at in years. I think they will be the next to go!

(If you're wondering why I don't give them to various charities or book drives that usually happen around the holidays? It's because they only accept brand new books! I always buy a couple of new ones to donate to those worthy causes.)

MARYILYNE, it might be a good idea to have your Wizard of Oz set evaluated by a book expert or two. There may not be many from that time period still available, and they may be more valuable than you might expect. I did a quick search on one site for Wizard of Oz books between 1939 and 1945, and came up with '0' available.

Babi

Ny copy of lad a dog BY TERHUNE COST TWENTY five dollars. . it was a gift. albert payson terhune books are collected although maybe not all for as much as that which was the first to become popular.

These books were not written by L. Frank Baum, but by other authors. Prices today? 1939 Ozoplaning with the Wizard of Oz in fair condition at 75 to $250 for very good condition. The 1`941 The Scalawagons of Oz run from 150 to 2000 dollars depending upon condition. From 1942 Lucky Bucky in Oz with war bond ad 1200, 65 for fair condition, most in the hundreds of dollars. Same thing for a 1940 First Edition of The Wonder City of Oz.

If you were getting First Editions as they came out in the stores, one a year, none in 1944, 1945 your books might be worth a lot more money than you think. If you were getting used books, they might be worth even more.

Kleo

THE COMPUTER SWALLOWED GRANDMA

The computer swallowed grandma. Yes, honestly it's true. She pressed 'control' and 'enter' And disappeared from view.

It devoured her completely, The thought just makes me squirm. She must have caught a virus Or been eaten by a worm.

I've searched through the recycle bin And file s of every kind; I've even used the Internet, But nothing did I find.

In desperation, I asked Jeeves My searches to refine. The reply from him was negative, Not a thing was found 'online.'

So, if inside your 'Inbox,' My Grandma you should see, Please 'Copy, 'Scan' and 'Paste' her And send her back to me!

This is a tribute to all the Grandmas who have been fearless and learned to use the computer........

They are the greatest!!!

Learning to use a PC has certainly changed my life. I also now have a lot in common with my grands.I can even teach them some things. They love coming to Grannys as she has broadband and a large screen. They love the educational and entertaining software I have for them. They love the digital camera and to watch me transferring photos I have just taken of them to the PC then to see themselves on the screen. Yes the PC has changed life for a lot of Grannies!

Carolyn

Ann - THANK YOU!!! What a wonderful poem to send on to my grandkids.

Marilyne: When you sell a book on ebay, how do you wrap or box it up and mail it to the buyer?

Well, I'm excited. I read in the local paper today that our Senior Center is asking for donations of videos such as exercise videos and movies. I have to get rid of books and movies fairly quickly because of upcoming house renovations and would love it if they can be used. The Senior Center is right in town, so it will be quite easy for me to haul videos there. I'm going to check and see if they need any books, too.

Next: I have to try to pursuade my husband to let me get rid of his big Stephen King and Tom Clancy collections. He's never going to read them again.

I k eep cookbooks and childrens books downstairs in the dining room and kitchen. More cookbooks on the ground floor in the hall and the craft room. The second floor has the majority of books.. I have a large basket downstairs next to my chair, but that is unread and I am decididly unfriendly if my daughter in laws or friends try to raid that basket. I have bags and bags upstairs in my closet and those they can raid to their hearts content and do.

OH OH! Look Look! Tom Clancy and Stephen King!! OH OH OH, if you have, if any of you have, an extra copy or two of any bestseller the Prison Library Project would kill to have them, if you have a box and don't mind the extra time and trouble of shipping them, we reimburse postage and it would be much appreciated if in good condition (which I'm sure yours are) OH OH OH!

We are nearing 5,000 donated all from wonderful donors and organizations like the PEN/ Faulkner, they have given about 300 for 3 years now. Our Pearson was approached by them initially reporting to the Library of Congress one year and they've been extremely kind to our project ever since. Wally Lamb is totally aware of what we're doing and where we are numbers wise, we may ask him to pen something when we hit 5,000: it's very fine.

One of our most touching donations was from a Marine in Afghanistan, whose mom, a SeniorNetter, told him of our project and the prisoners' love (Spring Creek Farms!) for Louis L'Amour. He had an entire collection of Louis L'Amour, one of each and in some cases several of each which he himself, on leave, boxed up and sent. That was so dear. He also bought some on sale, and had them shipped, what a shining example of Our Men in Uniform, I think he should get an award, so YES YES YES if you have the time, please email me for the shipping address and please do send us some!

There are prisoners who love to read, and the books are often so well read the pages are worn thin by the repetition and the books have to be rebound by the librarians. The prisoners in SC have little else to do but attend classes and read, the other weightrooms etc, have been closed, the object is to improve their minds and education and reading skills, no joke.

Everybody's remarks here about the difference in a library people see and one they don't really has me staring at our shelves critically, I think mine ARE different, depending and it's interesting what's not seen and what is!

I admit in the more public ones (that is the one in the main room people come to, I don't know what to call it) I tend toward, yes I do, color coding the covers. Yes I do. Dear me, I wonder what that says about me (other than the fact I can't find ONE SINGLE THING I want) haahah Joan K, me too.

Marni

on the mosquito!

Ok here's a toughie, now be honest (and yes I have books stacked on the floors!!) what would you say the greatest concentration of subjects in your public room bookshelves are? This is somewhat invasive, and you need not reveal ALL, for instance, if you tend toward porn you probably will want to say oh Critical Political Analysis, hahaha so don't reveal all but what are YOU showing as a general rule (if you have not answered this one, some have) to those who venture in and spot the book shelves and what's (other than porn, you need not reveal all) the majority of subjects on your private shelves?? hmmm?

In our collection, we tend to keep good biographies and other non-fiction and classic fiction. We also have big collections of Larry McMurtry, Walter Mosely, Tony Hillerman, James Michener, James Ellroy, Tom Clancy, & Stephen King.

Every once in awhile I go through the books and force myself to give some up. Now I have to work on my husband. It's so hard to give up books.

Ginny: I'm going to talk to Bob about the prison project and those Clancy and King books. Maybe Bob will go for it. We have zero room left on our shelves.

Thank you Marni, we use Media Rate for shipping so we can reimburse more easily, McMurtry is good too? hahaaha

Ginny, on the PLP, I thought that books with graphic violence and crime were out? That would eliminate most Stephen King and Tom Clancy, wouldn't it? Are paperbacks okay? Hardbacks okay? I have a handful of Michener hardbacks. Local VA hospitals usually love Tom Clancy books, also.

That's a good point, Kleo. There are several great places that books with violence in them are appreciated.

Books which glorify violence are not wanted. That is if the author lovingly talks about slicing somebody up, it's out, but they love Stephen King anyway and I think some of those are wanted, I know they are. Not every Stephen King dwells on specific violence. One of the lists the Librarians gave me (and some of which are in the heading of the PLP) have "Any Stephen King" on them. So they make exceptions in certain cases.

It does not make sense to give a prisoner a book which glorifies and lovingly details how to do and enjoy violent acts of crime, they weed those out automatically and no matter how well a True Crime account is written they don't want it.

What's not wanted is books which glorify violence or killing, full frontal nudity on the covers, ANY book about true crime, and (this is new) books with excessive scatological language in them, the OBJECT is to provide reading materials which the prisoners will want to read and practice reading in and which (if possible) elevate. Not all Stephen King elevates.

Likewise biographies of black figures, sports figures, or famous men or women of any color or ethnic background who have made good versus those of figures who openly flaunt laws, etc.

Science Fiction is much prized, and there are entire series of role playing sort of books of this genre which are also, specific authors are always in demand.

Hardbacks or paperbacks are wanted, the prisoners apparently are intimidated by hardbacks but they will read them if no other source exists, such as the series about the End Times, the LeHaye, most of them are in Hardback and much sought after.

The librarians prefer hardbacks and if you can see the photo of one of the libraries in the prisons in the PLP discussion you can see why: these are real libraries with real librarians and their space is limited, hardbacks hold up better, but paperbacks, if in really good condition are wanted.

Books of any kind which are not in good condition are not wanted, prison libraries are a dumping ground, and get all sorts of well meaning donations of moldy trashy books which cannot be used.

Books of poetry, any kind of poetry are much desired, believe it or not, even bad poetry, books on learning Spanish, books IN Spanish, there are lists of subjects and things desired in the PLP heading.

Thank you for asking!

I'm going to make an (objective?) survey of what I'm displaying somewhat haphazardly on my own bookshelves and what I'm not, it ought to be interesting.

Thanks for the PLP info, Ginny.

Objective survey? You're going to find something icky if you do. I'm moving my monster books OUT of the living room. These are real trash monster books, although my Mary Shelley is there, too. All those books that were made into straight-to-DVD movies about mutant alligators, cockroaches, pythons.

Be careful as you may not want to know what others have learned about you. I do remember a plumber once looking at my bookshelves rather strangely.

Kleo

what's that. mine are all mixed up except for the art and music which are I guess public so I know where they are. . .unread paperbaks the lady at the new bookstore gave me for two dolars since she only wanted hard backs have a shelf of their own.

I'm taking my time reviewing them and reading some and giving some away and some are in he guestroom for their review etc.

how to do's in the den with classics some classics and more how to dos in the bedroom and more of those in the PULBLIC?...

and then open shelves full of boxes and bags of art supplies and the easle and ongoing junk on three by seven? foot tables. two of them and an old tea cart with palette and box of acrulic tubes -- big paper cutter, hair dryer for paint not hair. three chairs two small tables. no couch and the chairs were fifty bucks each each at the grocery store...am I going on too long..well. ginny is catching maybe this should be in green then you'd think it was her. ahaha light green at that. GINNY???

Thanks Kleo. hahaha on the Monster Mash, I may end up doing some carting off too.

Claire, aha, so it's ok now for me to use green too? Great. I have to keep going into edit and taking it out, for this discussion, super~!

Oh, I just noticed I forgot about my books in the living room shelves and in the attic. (They seem to be everywhere.) We have a collection of children's books that we had to save - the ones that were Danny's favorites that we had to read to him a million times. I had joined one of those monthly book clubs when he was a baby and we received a wonderful children's book every month. It was great.

Then we have shelves of books that Bob's family wrote - his great-grandfather and his sister were/are children's book illustrators, so of course we have to keep all of those.

Then there are the art books....and the bird books. Oh, and now we have a big box of legal books on the front porch - books my son was given to use when he prepares for the bar exams when he finishes law school - and that's not even for another 2 years.

....And all the books I inherited from my aunt and received this spring....

Aaaack! It's overwhelming!

Ginny: I'm starting to get confused about the prison books. I think some of Bob's books have a lot of violence. But sounds like SOME of the Stephen King are ok? Is there a list of which ones are NOT ok?

Ginny: The type of mailing you use....Do I have to get special boxes? Do you have a link to where I can find the details on how to mail the books for the prison project and where they are sent etc?

Marni, sorry not to be clear, I've come back in here with a list directly requested by the prison librarians or the prisoners and you can see the authors, titles AND a general list of what's not wanted, I had forgotten, for instance, about books on the Martial Arts not being wanted.

Please check here for lists of books: titles and authors wanted and what is not

Since we are serving an entire prison system, that is 19 prisons, each one will have different inmates and different needs, this set of guidelines is for the entire system, exceptions per prison may be made. I can see here on the list, for instance, several desired Stephen Kings.

On the shippiing and boxes, anything which will arrive in one piece, nothing special, nothing fancy, even wrapped in grocery bags which we have gotten, is fine. The "Media Rate" is just something you tell the PO and they give you a cut rate on the price? It's cheaper, it takes longer, it's only for books and CD's etc, and libraries etc., and it is wrapped the same way anything else is.

Thank you for considering this, very kind of you. I appreciate being allowed to talk about it here; it's a very good thing.

If anyone needs the mailing address, please email me and I'll send it right on.

That new list of authors only has 4 women on it! I realize that most of the prisoners are male, but female authors write for both sexes. I did see the first list which has a number of women authors on it.

I understand that many of the prisoners have low reading levels as I was a prison volunteer with my pastor for about 3 years. Perhaps books written for an Young Adult audience might be easier to read. Lots of adventure novels in that category, also coming of age novels which may or may not be acceptable. Sue

I don't know about the reading levels of the prisoners, but one problem with young adult novels for low level adult readers is the topic matter. I work occasionally as a literacy tutor, and I guarantee you there are few adults who are compelled to read young adult literature. I reread my young adult books, and children's books, but they're not in my desert island selection, and the topics are just too immature for the average adult.

Kleo

My public shelves..living room..carry my beloved classics in the book club editions. The beat up, falling apart classics are on a high shelf in my bedroom. Also, big picture books such as you pick up traveling are out there, including one with pictures and text on some of the most beautiful churches in the world.

Elsewhere, total hodgepodge; mine and my daughter's, including texts and more classics, usually paperback. Some of them I really need to simply throw away, since I disagreed with much of what they said and wouldn't want to pass along their viewpoints.

Babi

Kleo, as a former high school librarian, I think it's possible to find YA books that appeal to adults, especially those with limited reading ability. The works of Jay Bennet and Gary Paulson come to mind--with their elements of survival, and making it on your own. Also Lois Lowry's The Giver -- a world without worry where all of life's decisions are made for you. There are many more; too many to mention here.

I don't know. And it seems to me that adult literature is so rich and has so many levels and it's written for adults, why even try to find books written for teenagers? To me, providing literature written for juveniles for adults because of their reading level is missing the biggest joy of reading, the intellectual bond with great literature. If we lived in a world where there were only 1000 books to choose from, and 100 were juvenile literature or YA, it would be a different case. But that's not the case.

Why send an adult to read a rite of passage into adulthood, or a book with a child as the protagonist? Gary Paulson is really about becoming growing up. We read a stream of books in Read Around the World about children growing up, adult books, NOT YA, and their themes are just not that compelling, the discussions weren't as interesting, and the books offered less than books with adult protagonists--adults lead much more complex lives with real responsibilities, sometimes overwhelming ones. I would not ever want to offer someone less, just because I judged their technical skills to be somewhat lower. There are brilliant novels that have few words a new reader would struggle with, yet have adult themes that will hook adults--The Old Man and the Sea, Of Mice and Men, I. B. Singer, Par Lagerkvist, Nella Larsen, Ray Bradbury, and on and on.

Why read The Giver as an adult when one could read The Left Hand of Darkness (or The Dispossessed or 1984 or Brave New World, all brilliant and sophisticated adult dystopias)? If one was going to use a dystopia to introduce an adult to literature or to a type of theme in literature, why would one pick a young adult book when there are superb adult novels available? The language in Brave New World is not much more challenging than The Giver.

I read Young Adult fiction myself. I reread my childhood books. I go to the children's section and YA sections of the library and sit and read there.

But I wouldn't pick one of these books to try to hook an adult on literature. I would pick a book with an adult protagonist and adult themes and then, if the adult wanted to pursue literature for juveniles or young adults, they would be well-armed to do so on their own. It seems condescending to me, also. Well, your reading skills aren't up to par, so maybe your thinking skills aren't. This is not necessarily the case.

And I also think that one of the best ways to hook someone on literature is to give them something they can directly relate to. An adult will relate more to an adult than to a child--it's pretty dang normal.

Kleo

I think YA books can have a place in an adult's life especially the books that are written today. Many YA books draw on social topics: drug abuse, devoirce, death in the family, a parent in prison, etc. For men in jail these topics, from a YA's view, will give an idea of what their teens or young children are facing in the outside world.

I am far less intellectual than many here. Perhaps, this is why, not being a prisoner, just an ordinary adult, I can find pleasure in reading YA books. I can't explain it. There is just a difference, maybe an innocence, found in reading a book for a young adult.

Some of the lifers in Alabama prisons are still teens. I expect that is also the case in South Carolina. Actually one of my former students is on Death Row in South Carolina. He was severely dyslexic in grades 5 and 6 at 15 and 16 y.o., having failed several grades more than once. His mother tells me that he is reading the Bible, not an easy book, but he probably was familiar enough with the topics. His Mom is married to a preacher. She refused help for him as she didn't want him labeled retarded. He was a very intelligent young man, but couldn't read at a second grade level. He turned to a life of crime at a very early age. I've always felt that it was because of his feelings of failure. I was a witness at his trial in SC--hoping to get life in prison rather than a death sentence. It didn't work. Sue

It's the concern of everyone who has to deal with them. And at this time of their lives they have many such issues that haven't been resolved and may never be and for heavens sakes Hats don't appolgise for ANYTHING LIKE THAT. . . I'd say you are more equal and certainly more honest than some of us. bad bad bad. don't do that. . .Claire

Good Grief, Hats!! You have some of the greatest insight in your contributions to the discussions. In addition to which, you have to be about the most polite and considerate person there is. Also you have such a great reading background and you use it!! You are an asset to Seniornet!! You make me ashamed for dragging my feet!

I read 'em Hats, I just don't prefer 'em all the time. It's nice to have a blend in reading, just like in discussing, intellectual viewpoints, more straightforward viewpoints, oddball VPs. I read them in part for the reason you suggest, to see what's going on in the YA literature world. Especially interesting are ones written by young adults, like the young lady who writes the vampire fiction.

The issue to me is using YA books as a substitute for adult literature with poor readers. I wouldn't in that case. Yes, I read YA literature, and I like it. But, no, I don't see that adults who read poorly should be given YA literature over adult literature.

The same themes can be had in adult literature.

I don't think Hats was apologizing for anything, just stating facts. Yes, I think Hats does look at things from a more straightforward point of view than anyone else, usually enriching the conversation with just that viewpoint--certainly makes me think.

Kleo

Ginny: Thanks for the list. It's very helpful.

I did notice one thing - The Poisonwood Bible is listed with Stephen King as the author. It was written by Barbara Kingsolver. So there is another female author on the list.

Now to pursuade Bob to give up his books that he'll never read again!

By the way, I dropped off my movie videos and some books at our local Senior Center today and they were very much appreciated. I checked at our library to see if the state library system had some sort of need for used hard-copy books in excellent condition. The answer was NO. Only if a particular library is having a SALE - then they'd sell donated books! I was really surprised. It's really too bad because I know many of my books, such as best sellers, would be popular and are in paperback and poor condition, if available at all, at my library.

Well, I'm glad the prison system might be interested in some of them.

one of my favorites primarily writes essays but then her fiction is like that too. . .expressing her point of view or views. A really nice writer. . . claire

Our librarians go thru the "sale" books and add what they can use to the collection in the library, just as they go thru the stacks to see what can be added to the "sale" stacks......jean

What a treat to come here after absence and find such a fun discussion of DDS. I have them double shelved everywhere but try to keep some sort of order - the study has genealogy, history, ancient & mediaeval lit, dictionaries & lit handbooks etc, biographies, and (for me -horrors!) my husband's maths, science, engineering texts, sports mainly sailing. Top shelves are devoted to inherited books - some going back to 1860's - came to Aust on sailing ships - can never part with those.

My studio is also jam-packed with art books, poetry & drama, some classic fiction. I have the classics shelved generally by country - English/American/European/African etc - and a big collection of Australiana - and botany/ gardening books have a long shelf -this might sound organised but some areas are a nightmare and like Winsum I have art materials easels/palettes/paints/paper/canvasses etc all vying for space and then my son arrives as says he wants to borrow a particular book - which is OK but we have to FIND it first.

Then the bedrooms and living areas have their fair share - I have a lot of Victorian fiction sitting on a cupboard in the back porch -there are the boxes in the storeroom and a bulging cupboard in the garage AND an annual charity booksale is coming up towards the end of August - we always go - we always buy - we always have a sausage sizzle - we always buy - the pickings are good - we always buy -my son helps out at the sale - he always buys - even before the sale opens he gets to buy - and gets to grab some treasures.Last year he gathered to his bosom a collection from the estate of a recently deceased Prof of Mediaeval lit - He is still working his way through them.

I wonder if anyone here has their books catalogued - I suggested I might do this 'one day' - son contributed the idea that I could do his as well and maybe cross reference. Think I'll just read them.

still smiling. . .and not BUYING at least not very often and then brand new at the market because I don't want to wait for it to get to used book stores or the long list waiting at the library which is what happened with the Evanovich number twelve. What a luxery to simply go buy what I was in the mood to inhale. which I did cough cough. . . claire

Science fiction is one of the categories where YA and adult are really hard to distinguish. There are certain authors in this field who really write things that fall both ways. Technically Harry Potter is a YA book or series, but I cannot think of any place that would not welcome those books. I read a whole series of Science Fiction and then realized that this was a YA series. Excellent and part of the people were young, but not all..Books are about ideas and readers who have problems reading at a lower level struggle with ideas.

I would like to start reading Science Fiction. I need to start with a good YA Science Fiction book. When I look at a Science Fiction adult book, I am totally lost.

the first in a trilogy or were there four. I like it and the next one by Frank Herbert. anyhow I guess it aso qualifies as literature. It means getting used to a different world.

personally I like the J.D.Robb series about life in New York in the years 2057 and 2058 actually about police and mystery the current coming inventions already in use and more, romance humor and a fiesty Eve Dallas police detective and her sidekick Peabody who is cute, fun and always looking for food. There's a whole series of these sort of like Evanovich's stephany plums except that it's also sci fi.

easy read though. I do one in a little over a day if left alone to read.

claire

Hats, Take Ann McCaffrey and any of her books in the Pern serie. You won't leave them until you have read them all! I can't count the number of time I have re-read them. Bubble

Someone recommended a biography to me. It is on the online sales at B&N at present for 3.99 instead of $16.00.

In My Brother's Image: Twin Brothers Separated by Faith after the Holocaust
by Eugene L. Pogany

In My Brother's Image

Anyone read it?

Thanks Claire and Bubble. I will give those titles a try.

Hats, click on 'more' to see synopsis of the Pern books

http://www.pern.nl/

Marni: The list from the Librarians if off on the listing of authors and titles...

I'll have to try to readjust from the King, Stephen on down. It lists Kingsolver for Confessions of a Shopaholic and that belongs with the next author down: Kinsella

so we'll need to revise that whole old list.

Since it's from 2005, I think maybe we'll just remove it until we have some time to redo the formatting. People tend to send what they have that fits the general guidelines, I think.

jane

jane, that list also shows Stephen King as the author of To Kill a Mockingbird.

Hats, I don't read science fiction, but year ago, we enjoyed the books of Robert A. Heinlein - and he wrote both YA and adult stories.

Mary Z thanks for the author. Bubble thanks for the link.

Yes, Mary, because the lists of authors was trying to coordinate with the lists of titles and they don't work in sequential order that way..so I've removed that part and added some of the women authors to the top listing, though I didn't have time to do a thorough listing. I'll put it on my "to do" list.

Thanks!

jane

Ginny and All what do you think of this one for a book discussion? Never mind. I think this is a very expensive book. I think it costs $32.00.

Salley Vickers

I checked out the reviews on THE OTHER SIDE OF YOU and it looks like the resolution to this woman's problem is in spiritual healing. . .not for me the atheist but her background reminds me of Phillipa Gregory an English Dr. of English Lit or history, I forget which, ...who writes historical novels that are accurate and very well done. i.e. THE OTHER BOLYEN GIRL. etc. You might enjoy that one. . .claire

Claire thanks for getting more information.

Hats, I've never been much of a Science Fiction or Fantasy fan, but every once in a while I run into one that I like. The Anne McCaffrey suggestion is a good one. The Word for World is Forest by Ursula McGuin is good also -- about people who were always peaceful until . . . The SF/F books that I do like tend to be "other world" and I cannot recommend Lois Lowry's The Giver highly enough. Required reading.

Years ago I remember hearing a speaker say one of the most important features of SF/F is how the author builds the environment. It may not be realistic for us, but it must be realistic for the setting, for the world of its inhabitants. In other words, the author can't just pitch in anything. Watership down is an excellent example -- very realistic world for the rabbits.

Pedln I did read "The Giver." That is really a great book, I think. I have tried reading "The Eyre Affair" by Fforde because everybody talks about it. I just don't get it.

I have to agree with Pedln, that The Giver is a great introduction to Sci-Fi, if you are looking specifically for a Young Adult introduction. There is another one, that's older, but every bit as or more famous, that I can't recall a name for. Someone help me out here.

Isn't Anne McCaffrey more fantasy than sci-fi? I don't read current science fiction--except for a couple of Octavia E. Butler's a few years ago, I've read none in over 10 years. Hers is mad max fiction, though. I like my science-fiction pure.

Ursula K. LeGuin is a good introduction to science fiction, the series someone else mentioned before moving on to The Left Hand of Darkness. I like The Dispossessed quite a bit, and it is less off a slog than Left Hand.

Kleo

Keep up the good work Hats

PEDLIN, thanks for mentioning Lois Lowry and "The Giver". I am a Sci/Fi fan, and I had not heard of this one before. I see HATS recommends it, too.

YA fiction is naturally less complex than adult fiction, but there are nontheless some topnotch writers writing in that genre. I can remember picking up 2 or 3 books labeled YA because something about them intrigued me, and finding them enjoyable reading.

Babi

Sometimes it's hard to define a YA book -- the protagonist is almost always of a certain age, it's a book written to appeal to those between ?and ? -- 11 - 14? 10 -17?. There are also many adult books which the kids have adopted as their own -- Sounder, To Kill a MOcking Bird, Catcher in the Rye (if no one tries to stop them), and more currently "Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime," and "Kite Runner," neither of which carry the YA label. My daughter recently found a list of Adult books for Young Adults and her 13 year old is now reading "Girl with the Pearl Earring" which was on the list. Maybe we need a list of good YA Books for Adults. Topping it would be Holes . Definitely, book and film.

Sorry I couldn't come up with and SF or Fantasy there. And how do you draw the line between THEM? Which one is "Brave New World?"

so is it sci fi or fantasy because I wouldn't bother with fantasy and I do like a certain kind of sci fi...there we go again designated as ordinary setting with extradinary occurances. Stephen King and Dean Koontz do this quite well but they are not just sci fi they are another group themselves as inHORROR or THRILLER. so it goes. Claire

Joy Cowley is a great young persons writer. I enjoyed her latest young adults book called Hunter. She is a famous kiwi writer for kids. Its kind of Sci Fi swinging between now and history using an ancient young Maori Warrior and a teenage girl in our time.

Carolyn

Hats, an interesting sci fi writer, but did only a few... A teacher named Zenna (argh, senior moment) Henderson ( I think). She wrote a small series about The People, no different flesh. A fascinating take on otherness. I read years ago that she taught children with emotional problems and wrote to show them a different way of looking at problems McCaffrey is awesome.. Marion Zimmer Bradley did a nice series on a planet called Darkover.. Has to do with the ability of a mind to control things.. Interesting take. Octavia Butler is a good writer. Robert Heinlin did both Ya and adult and even though he was a bit on the macho side, it was still fun. I am not sure where the line is on scifi and fantasy.. Arthur Clarke is an oceanographer and writes wonderful sci fi on that theme. I have alwas loved sci fi and it was the first books I read as a teen for pure joy. The greatest Christmas present I ever go was from my Dad at 12. He gave me a years subscription to a sci fi book club and paid for one book a month for the year. Oh the joy from that.

Great discussion on Young Adult literature, I know nothing about it. Thank you all. Good points, Hats, I don't know about that genre, but you are dead right that those ARE the issues prisoners like to read about.

I'll try to see if we can get new lists, thank you Marni, and thank you, Jane, and thank all of you who mentioned the titles and authors being off, it's as Jane mentioned sort of a complicated HTML thing which has lined up the wrong one with the wrong author, these ARE real librarians and they do know the authors. haahaha

We'll see if we can get some new lists!

I know that prisoners do like to read about anything current, like current movies, etc., since they are hardly in the position to see any, they like to read the books about them.

I did not know you volunteered, Sue, if I lived near the women's correctional facility in Columbia SC, the Camille Griffin Graham women's correctional facility, I would volunteer there in a heartbeat, it's like a high school, you'd be surprised, and has many volunteers there.

One quick look at my own bookshelves in the living room shows a serious need to reshelf and get some of that stuff out. I've got collections by bindings, etc., and all sorts of stuff that needs to be moved out!!

I do have an entire shelf of children's books which I have been buying up now for years for my grandchildren to be. Every time I bought one for a godchild I added one of my own for my own anticipated grandchildren and now it appears in November I'll get to use them, I had not thought that was going to happen, am quite excited.

But yesterday came a new box from the Discovery Channel Book Club and in it was THE book. THE BOOK I have heard about and had recommended for ages now. I have not felt this way about a book for ages. I almost feel an awe of it. It's Pompeii by Marisa Ranieri Panetta. It's bigger than the Wilhelmina F. Jashemski book and so lavish I am afraid to open it, it's come sealed in shrink wrap. I am...have you ever hesitated lest the book itself disappoint? I'm going to savor the cover illustrations first (which are as large as a painting), it's such a gorgeous book, before I open it. The book was done in collaboration with the "Superintendency of Pompeii and the Superintendency for Archaeological Heritage of Naples and Pompeii."

When I was at the Piscina Mirabile in Bacoli this past March, the guy from AlItalia who went down with me kept saying get "the woman's book," she talks about it, so when I saw this book offered (counts as two choices) hahahah I could not believe it. (I hope it's THE WOMAN, in answer to my question what woman he said THE woman, he may have been talking about Jashmeski but I don't think so, Bacoli is not Pompeii but I'm about to find out!)

THE Mystery Woman!!

Stay tuned for the unwrapping, already the two close up photos on the covers are simply spectacular. Awesome!

In Pompeii this past spring I also saw rising out of the hillside as you exit the biggest house I have ever seen, Pompeii is like Disney World ALWAYS something new and exciting to see.

But now for something completely different, I've started Rococo by Adriana Triglani. The first chapter is titled The Duke of Decor on the Jersey Shore (now who could resist that?) and begins...

Little drawing of seashell and then....

I want you to imagine my house. It's a classic English country cottage, nestled on an inlet overlooking the Atlantic Ocean in the borough of Our Lady of Fatima, new Jersey, about five miles north of Interlaken.

hahahaha Who would not be hooked! Hahahaa Apparently it's about a gay decorator, can't wait to read it. Have finished up the Lucia series and now will move to the Tom Holt Lucia sequels, they are good, too.

As I said, we have a 1968 Britannica set in the living room. I have contacted the library suppliers our local library recommended in vain for those nice little plastic things you see in libraries on the bindings which you grab instead of ripping the binding off when you want to pull out a book from the stacks. People seem to know what I'm talking about, but there seems to be no terminology for this thing, it's a plastic loop on the spine? When I try to grab these 1968 books and pull one out, they are so large and pressed together you can get a chunk of the rotten binding for your trouble if you're not careful. I have two library supply catalogues and these Mystery Plastic Loops are not in them!!!

Even tho we also bought a World Book for the kids in 1972 I think it is, I prefer the Britannica for some things, even tho the understandings in some cases have changed with recent scholarship. If you read one of those extensive articles you have a feel for the subject I don't think you get with today's hyperactive mini bytes of information.

I wonder if the Encyclopedia itself as a genre is doomed, is anybody buying them any more? I had one that came in a CD, the Britannica, but then they wanted you to subscribe in order to read it or something, and with a slow ISP I'd rather read the 1968 one. I guess I would rather sit in a chair and hold a book than try to read off the internet, but I may be alone in that.

Do any of you remember the door to door book salesmen? They would come to the door and sell you all sorts of books. That's how we came to have a complete set for that year of Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories, among other things, AND the 1968 Britannica. I have not seen a door to door book salesman in years, have any of you?

You could not pay me to be a door to door salesman in this day and time, good heavens.

We had a local bookstore privately owned, to close. There was a lot of whining about the BIG BOOKSELLERS, etc, but the fact of the matter was that these folks did not shelve their books in any order save what they wanted to, and you could find absolutely nothing while being treated all the time to personal insights and family information you did not want. I am not surprised they closed. That sounds harsh, I guess, but it's the truth, from my point of view, anyway.

There was an article a week or so ago on Why We Start Reading Books, what we're looking for when we pick one up, and why we START so many. What, I wonder, ARE we looking for? What do YOU hope to find when you open the pages of a new book? It's really been A LONG time since I was satisfied with what I found in the pages of a new book, (although I do like Cesar Millan's book but it's not fiction). What are we looking for, in fiction, do you think?

But I REALLY like Stephanie's post above which she made as I was posting this.

What's the best book you ever got as a gift and why? Do your holiday occasions always include a gift of books?

Ginny I remember door to door book salesman. My parents bought my first and only set of encyclopedias from a door to door salesman.

Stephanie thanks for the recommendations.

And Hats, I seem to remember you'd pay for them over time or something? Or am I all wet?

Ginny your right. Along with the encyclopedias came a small shiny, silver bank. In this bank I had to put a dime a week, I think, and by a certain amount of time the dimes would add up to pay for the encyclopedias. My parents kept their word and paid for the encyclopedias. I didn't continue to fill the bank with dimes. My dimes went for something else, maybe cookies at the corner store.

They were beautiful encyclopedias. Now I can't remember the name of the encyc. They were not the Britannicas. Along with the encyclopedias came a slanted bookshelf.

Talking of door to door salesman reminds me of the play "Death of a Salesman" by Arthur Miller.

Probably my best books as presents were the very first ones I got as a kid. We could read books in the house, but didn't get our own books until we learned to read. My older brothers had their own books and taught me to read so I could get some. My parents gave me a book called Vanishing Wilderness about the disappearance of large predators in the Northern Hemisphere, bison, grizzlies, cougars and the like. Also a book on the African slave trade. And Edward Lear's "The Owl and the Pussycat." All three greatly influenced me throughout life, with a passion for preserving our natural heritage, and interest in the economic forces that drive human evils, and a lifetime love of poetry and the absurd. A later favorite was a book of Romantic poetry for children, including William Blake's "The Tiger." As an adult I love books that people give me that I'm not expecting, but I'm easy to buy books for.

Kleo

Stephanie Hochuli - The People by Zenna Henderson has been reprinted and now has some stories added that were not in the previous edition.

It is now one thick volume and one I would never want to give away. My children ordered it for ome on Amazon ecause it is not available locally. It is one of my most appreciated present.

Ginny, you asked if holiday occasions included gifts of books. We don't give "gifts" per se - just money. But at our annual family/friend week at the beach, everybody brings a sack of books for the annual book exchange.

Our youngest daughter's favorite wedding present was a gift certificate to WaldenBooks (this was 20 years ago - no B&N or Borders then). She was thrilled!

and it was almost enshrined at our house. Ernest Thompson Seton Biography of a Grizzly...I think that's the title. I didn't see it on his page here but it sounds right and then WILD ANIMALS I HAVE KNOWN.

Kleo these might interest you and also the prisoners. . .well it's the great outdoors and some of his writings are for YA even children.

http://tinyurl.com/rmhls his page

My husband was employed during his school years by the Woodcraft Rangers as a field executive. Which meant really as an advisor to the volunteers who ran the TRIBES. I went on many trips with them including some weekends at their ranch where I cooked stew for a mob. I had never made stew before but I just kept throwing in more flour and it finally thickened. The kids were used to spaghetti and they loved it.

I was the only female tribe leader at the time in west los angeles. We planed a weekend at the Camp at Lake Arrowhead, waited with bus for every one to arrive and for a quite a while for a fourteen year old girl who chose to elope and get married instead. . . .her mother didn't mind and didn't tell us until later. This was a group of young teen age girls. We spent our first summers, sans children yet, working at that camp.

I, a city girl learned about a world I didn't know existed and later worked in Culver City School Camp with the sixth grade kids who came up for five days with their teacher at a time.

I had forgotten about all of this, but it's a direct result of Ernest Thompson Seton having stolen my husbands heart with his books.

He if you read the article founded the boy scouts which were more military and the Woodcraft Rangers which were more based on Indian Lore.

byw my friend Zinnia tells me that the proper word to use is Indian and that they really hate NATIVE AMERICANS. She is part Indian and very aware of such things. so now everyone here knows.

My grandfather had a book in his bookcase called "Elephant Bill" It was non fiction- set in the time of British rule over Burma and told stories about the Elephants who worked in the Teak forests. I loved it and read and reread it as a child.

I also read "A Man called Peter" dozens of times as a child. Funny how books from your childhood reading really stick in your mind.

you just reminded me f Kipling and the JUST SO STORIES and more because of the elephant reference. Isn't it wonderful the way this discussion dredges up these old memories and pleasures.

as a child I reread favorite books, but as an adult I indulge in good junk and don't bother. after all what's a mystery when it's no longer a mystery?

claire

I am so excited. There is a post from Matthew Pearl at the Poe discussion. I expected to read a post from Joan. Instead, there is Matthew Pearl's name. I love it when authors come to visit.

Well, Hats, you beat me to it! Exciting isn't it? If anyone here hasn't yet heard of Matthew Pearl's new book, The Poe Shadow, please check it out. The author was an English major at Yale, then went on for his law degree and brings his knowledge, experience, research and enthusiam to his thrillers which are based on historical fact.

As Hats says, it is really exciting when an author of Matthew's renown takes the time from his busy schedule to join our book discussions.

The discussion will begin on September 1.

If you haven't looked in, you'll find the discussion in the Coming Attractions - HERE

That is not a link to the discussion, but to his e-mail!

Ginny when are you going to show off that lavish "Pompeii" book? I would enjoy seeing some of it.

THanks, Bubble. The link should work now.

Carolyn, I'm so sorry that your library doesn't carry Matthew's books. I'll bet they carry Poe though. We're planning a discussion of Poe's mysteries simultaneous with Matthew's book. Bill is leading it and it should be a lively discussion.

You should be able to reach it here - Murders in the Rue Morgue ~Poe

somehow that offends me.

http://www.questia.com/ this one gets yo there but not to Felicaa Herman whose article is what I wanted. it's part of this thing I've learned about my father.

I was looking for the articles on Naziis in the movies in the nineteen thirties. they let me look at part of one, offered a free sevenday trial to see the rest and required an active shutdown to avoid the continuing subscription and it's twenty dollar a month expense. it's QUESTA. that may not be the right url since I've been roaming around but in anycase it's a good one.

claire

Twenty dollars a month? They sure value their services highly. I can find my own articles; I'll give Questa a pass. I really don't like reading stories or articles on line anyway. If I'm really interested in something, I'd rather print it out and read it in my own leisurely fashion.

Babi

Not all articles are in the public domain, and we don't all have academic access. And $20 a month is not much if it gives you access to articles not otherwise in the public domain.

I'm trying to be kind to trees and get more used to reading articles on-line, but it's not working.

Kleo

works the best for me now that my eyes are having problems I just keep blowing it up with my mmac. hold down command and keep hitting the plus sign. works for most things but not all and not pdf which is often what these articles are formatted.

my daughters work may give her free acccess to some of these or she may already have it through New York Univeristy where she is a research scientist. I'll have to check.

claire

My daughter is a librarian in an Academic library she has free access to some sites. I must ask her which ones.

Carolyn

I actually like reading online, but I use a laptop and can dim it down and tilt the screen so it's almost like reading a book. I also can increase the print and decrease the size of the page. That really does make it like a book.

We had World Book--same story except that I knew a man who was an editor there at the time, so I bypassed the door to door guy.

Claire--I can support what you said about "Indian." A couple years ago I had an Indian in one of my classes. She came in for extra help and I asked her. She said "Indian" was the preferred term, better yet Apache (or whatever tribe). She was a full-blooded Apache. She said that Indians had never liked "Native American."

I recent met an Aztec from Minnesota in the dining car on the train from Memphis to New Orleans.. He said Native American was fine with him. He really didn't have a preference. Didn't much like Indian, though, because of the portrayal in early movies.

An Aztec from Minnesota - that sounds interesting.

Years ago in Myrtle Beach, SC.. my husband was a disc jockey at the local station and I was busy having our first baby ( 44 years ago actually), we lived in a triplex and one of our neighbors was a door to door book salesman. I was amazed at what he made. Hard work though. He sold Parents magazine and other hard cover childrens books as well as an encyclopedia ( child type??) I really think that books you read as a child or teen stick with you for so many years. I am sure that many of my adult opinions and likes come from that reading.

Yes and we have some exciting news on the Indian front actually, so stay tuned.

And it's shaping up to be a Fabulous Fall what with a best selling author, Matthew Pearl, as you can see, already in our midst, posting in the Poe Shadow, you can't find that every day anywhere, so get your copy and be ready on September 1, and if you can't get a copy in your country you can read, I believe the Poe Stories in the adjunct discussion, it should be a wonderful experience and a lot of learning for everybody.

Hats, THE book is apparently not THE WOMAN'S book but it's by anybody's standards THE book! I finally opened it and nearly fell over, one of the very first huge illustrations WERE the wax tablets of Caecilius Iucundus whom we read about in the Latin 101 class, I have braved hell, high water and downtown Naples to see them including the office of the museum Superintendent, but when a wing is closed, it's closed. Yet they were SO kind, you'd have thought I was Queen Elizabeth or something, next time I'll write ahead.

But I had never seen them. And the color plates otherwise were incredible, the book is gigantic in size, it's about 15 inches tall and 10 ½ wide or something so when they blow up a fantastic plate it's incredible. And sometimes they'll do a fold out, three of those gigantic pages wide, you can barely hold it extended!

Another thing I like about it is it has 14 authors. Each expert takes a subject and writes on it. For instance they take up the port, another tricky question and for good reason. I never knew what that reason was, I do now. The book is worth its weight in gold to me, so much so that I am considering buying another one and using IT for laminated posters, I can't bear to cut this one up and the pages are too big for a copier.

THAT good! Hahaha

The Latin and Greek courses here on SeniorNet are just about to open registration, we're all excited about all the inquiries already. We've made history here on SeniorNet with these classes aimed at Seniors taught online, to the extent that the American Classical League (the national organization of all Latin and Greek teachers at all levels) had at their last convention at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia this past June 20, the Senior as a new direction in Latin pedagogy: a new generation of Latin student for the new Millennium.

We had a lovely group from SeniorNet present at that conference, and we're about to write up the experiences and photos, and we hope some of you can come to DC for the SN National Conference this October, both from the Classics and from the Books.

We already are making plans to go out together Friday, the Classics, the Books and the Online, open to anybody who would like to come who is there on Friday afternoon or evening, after the SN reception for dinner on the Mall and those who would like to can come along for dinner and then if you'd like, come with some of us to walk about and view the Mall all lit up. I myself have never seen the new WWII Memorial except in photos but it's right there: only a block or two from the restaurant we're considering so those who would like to see DC at night and look along the fine vista on the Mall from the Capitol to the....is it Washington Monument can come along with us, the more the merrier, from the Online. We'll need a head count to make reservations later on, just FYI as you are making your own plans.

Oh I love FALL, already the light has changed here in SC, the shadows are beginning to change on the grass, there's a different look in the air. Time to learn something, time to enjoy our Books and Classics and be young again in the mind. Love it!

How much is it Ginny. I have this fifty dollar gift certificate at amazon for almost two ears now because everything I've been wanting to read is not available used with it . maybe this is the answer. claire

I'm with those who haven't gotten used to reading books online. The posts and short articles are fine, but with a book, I want to curl up in a comfy chair or bed and relax. Perhaps a laptop is the answer.

So many books over the years as presents. Outstanding are the books my father used to read aloud to us at bedtime as children. Mostly Mark Twain, his favorite. I still love them.

A new photo has been added to the slide show.

Oh, Mahlia is beautiful, a handsome husband too.

Where are Mahlia and Mohamed? I didn't see them?

The photos in the heading flip, Bubble, you may have to wait or click refresh: very handsome photo it is, too!

Claire, it's $49.00 plus tax, I'd see if the library had it first to be sure you want to spend it all on that one book. B&B may list it cheaper tho?!?

OR you could get it free from the Discovery Channel Book Club (counts as two selections) I really like their stuff!

Ginny, I thought that if you click on Book Family there, you should see them all without flipping? But mahlia does not show there

Oh good point Bubble, Pat may not have added it there, I'll write her, thanks for that head's up!

Some time ago, we were doing some origins of rose names in literature, and Hats had asked about growing roses in containers and I thought you'd like to see the result of one year's growing on the porch:

I used to have a rose garden but took it up when my youngest was about 4 as he liked to thrust his little face into the blooms and I did too and back then sprays were really required to keep off disease, etc.

I don't like pesticides and fungicides, we've grown our grapes without them now for 26 years, despite being told you can't DO that, and I didn't want them on the roses either, so no roses.

Now with Bayer systemic products you can have a rose garden with nothing on the blooms or leaves whatsoever.

I never promised you a rose garden hahahaa This is a brick terrace with a wrought iron arch (which the roses have not grown up yet) and a gate. All of the roses (the photos don't show all of them, there are about 12 blooming now, nor the impact it gives), and it really does give the feel and smell of my former rose garden. This is only one year's growth.

Thought you might enjoy that, these images are displaying on Photobucket.com which Jane knew about and which works wonderfully well and is free, too.

Ginny How beautiful! I can see the wrought iron gate. Those roses are spectacular! Thanks for showing this rose show.

Thank you

I added one last one, it's hard to get them all in.

That one rose, Ginny.... if Eve had seen it in garden of Eden, she would not have been interested in apples! lol

Surely the Discovery Channel doesn't just send books out for free for joining? You have to agree to buy some number of books from them, but their membership agreement isn't on the web--it doesn't say up front what the catch is!!!!

If it were just they send me books for free everyone would join.

Some books are worth spending 50 bucks on--or two selections. I keep trying to find a cheaper botany text to update my current one, and am finally biting the bullet to get a used copy for $85.

Kleo

I'm trying to find a use for that fifty gift which my daughter ave me two years ago. I don't buy anything new since it's available as you say elsewhere and amazon won't let me use i on anything that isn't new.

claire

In the Birthday column -- Frant McCourt is 79 today.

Roses! Roses! Oh, Ginny ~ Thanks for the photos of your roses!

It's a gloomy, rainy day here at Cape Cod, even too wet for a decent walk with the dog. And kicking myself for wasting so much time and water with the hose, yesterday, trying to pep up by veggies in the garden.
So your roses hit the spot and cheer my day. Carpe diem. A good day for reading!

p.s. SeniorNet Latin class registration for fall is open.
Any of you bookies thinking of another source of reading? The ancient classics in Latin!
I love Latin classes with Ginny! (not a paid advertisement ! )

AND Greek 101 is being offered too.

Fall 2006 Registration Information & Prerequisites for Enrolling in Greek Courses:
http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?PageID=8097

Fall 2006 Registration Information & Prerequisites for Enrolling in Latin Courses:
http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?PageID=8096

Thank you Mippy, if that were a paid commercial it could not be any better and thank you Pat for those links, we're off to a roaring start this weekend in our Classics folders.

Here are two books I am reading tho, which may be of interest, I've come back to Everyone Worth Knowing by Lauren Weisberger, the author of The Davil Wears Prada and it's sort of the same thing as the other book, but not as successfully done. I had started it before but have returned to it. Sometimes you feel like a nut, huh? Still, a light and enjoyable read about the In Crowd, and what happens there, it's fun and OK and all.

Then I'm reading a new huge paperback with more photos than print of South, the story of Shackleton's Last Expedition 1914-1917, by Sir Ernest Shackleton. It's something else. I have been trying to read this story ever since my husband's brother gave him one I think called Endurance I am not sure, but only a few photos.

This was his last journey to the Antarctic, in which his boat the Endurance was crushed by the ice in Antarctica and he and his men "made a 600 mile trek across ice and ocean to solid land, and then a 700 mile journey in an open boat to South Georgia, followed by an epic crossing of the uncharted mountains of that island."

So this guy is another of the great navigators. I really like this version of the book much better than the other two I have because of it's huge and spectacular (even tho black and white) photos of the actual event, just unbelievable.

I don't know how half of those early explorers managed to survive. When you go to Greenwich England at the Royal Naval Observatory there they show the clothing they wore, actual pieces of their clothing, and I would freeze to death here in South Carolina much less in Antarctica or the Poles. The great Everest climber Mallory was photographed nude as a joke but also shirtless and also with knee britches and a sweater on Everest, these must have been supermen or men of some sort of strange constitution. People have looked for Mallory for years, and when he was found a couple of years ago by people dressed like spacemen, as they dress now, he was wearing his little thin wool coat, and sweater.

Claire, I would definitely get the book first to look it over, you may find it's not of interest, but the ancient art in it is quite spectacular and I know you are an artist.

Kleo, yes of course like any bookclub you have the "free" introductory offer which I now notice has a $14.95 charge to ship, and then you are obligated to buy more books, (it's in the original agreement but it's hard to find, I agree), but I like their books, haahaha and the Pompeii IS a bargain, to me anyway, I had never heard of it.

They carry those wonderful DK books too, I love them.

I wish I had time enough to read what I wanted to with no interruptions, do you? That feeling of just being you and your book, it's one I have not felt in some time, I would like to have it again.

We in the Books are making plans to get together in small groups at the SN National Conference in Washington DC in October, and you all are invited if you can come, just keep us in mind and more later on!

Ginny - put the book _Shackleton's Forgotten Men_ on your list. Talk about a riveting book. It is about the men who take off in another ship at the same time as Shackleton leaves for the "south". Their job is to cache food for him leaving from the other side of Antartica to the South Pole. Thus, Shackleton will carry food to the South Pole and then have food the rest of the way.

Kathy

Ginny SOUTH sounds very interesting. I bet it's hard to stop reading it. While being in the Lewis and Clark discussion, I have become very interested in exploration. It's exciting to think of men and/or women going to places so far away not knowing what obstacles would come their way.

PAT - many thanks for adding our photo to the header. I recall with great pleasure meeting some of the SN participants in Washington DC several years ago, when we lived in the area. Great fun to actually visit face-to-face with posters. I'm not sure yet whether I'll be able to attend the October event in Arlington, VA, since my son, David, is relocating again and Mohamed returns to Egypt in early Sept. David and his family look forward to a 3 year posting in Madrid, beginning in Jan.

Yes, Kathy, the Ross Sea Party's story is amazing, every bit as amazing as Shackleton's personal story with the Endurance.

I think that one of Scott's teams used one of their depots. The Ross Sea Party's dedication to the safety of Shackleton is a testimony, imo, to their deserving to be much better known. I think they hold some records, also.

I grew up in a house filled with books on Arctic and Antarctic expeditions--my grandfather was an Arctic explorer, and my mother was addicted to reading about these expeditions, as I and my siblings became. Long before I knew the presidents I could list dozens of 19th and 20th century Arctic and Antarctic expedition leaders and their accomplishments. Every single one of these expeditions is amazing, the sights, the accomplishments, the daring, the ability to survive -50 degree weather in clothes Ginny wouldn't find suitable for inclement weather in Georgia.

A great explorers book club would be a lot of fun. In addition to the Arctic/Antarctic explorers there is a world of 18th century naturalists (and other centuries), Lewis and Clark, of course, and African sea and land journeys, the Americas, Australia, the ancient journeys to England from Rome, the Indians coming to America, the settling of the South Pacific Islands by the Polynesians.

Kleo

I barely remember the theme but It was a book about exploration by Roy Chapman Andrews 1884 - 1960. Naturalist, Explorer & Author. Welcome to Whales, who now seems to have one about whales.

another of my interests. whales sing. . isn't that nice.. . .claire

KLEO, if I were a professional researcher and needed expanded access to records/files, then $20.00/mo. would be perfectly reasonable. I suspect you do more scholarly research than I do.

DEEMS, your description of reading from the laptop, with lighting dimmed and print enlarged, does sound like something I could live with. Meanwhile, tho', I will post on my standard monitor, and read from my standard books.

MAHLIA, now I'm confused. Madrid? Last I heard,I thought David was to be posted to Germany. There must have been a change I missed. [Which is easily possible, since I skipped an on-line day this weekend.]

Babi

Roy Chapman Andrews was an explorer who led expeditions to the great deserts of Asia. He was also head of the American Museum of Natural History for a while. There is a book about him that looks fabulous. I bought it a couple of years ago when it was reissued in paperback. The title alone makes me want to read it, but he was a colorful man who lived a full and interesting life, Dragon Hunter: Roy Chapman Andrews and the Central Asiatic Expeditions by Charles Gallenkamp, Michael J. Novacek, Michael J. Novacek. I have not read the book yet. You know how I mentioned I shelve books my family members may want to read in the living room? One of 'em has it!

Gallenkamp also writes about the Maya, but Novacek is a mammologist of some sort, so he's probably the author with a book on whales out, if you want to search for it, Claire.

Babi, yeah, I was probably thinking of the outrageous prices for single purchases (prohibitive) if one doesn't have a subscription or access--$25-50 per article. $20 a month isn't that much.

Kleo

GINNY - Were your ears burning tonight? Your gorgeous roses were the topic of conversation at our dinner table tonight. A neighbor joined us and I pulled up the photos you provided. She temporarily forgot her dinner, sat down at my computer and admired the roses. As as avid rose gardener herself, she was mightily impressed! Spread the joy is a grand motto. Many thanks.

BABI - Indeed a change of plans. My DIL has already been on the web to locate book clubs in the Madrid area for herself and the children (ages 10 and 14), contacted a Spanish language tutor to work with them when they arrive, and David has been spinning happily in place, while chanting "Ole." (Sorry, I don't have the keyboard for the correct spelling.)

I thought I'd pass this on.....

I found out about a fabulous museum in Newport, Rhode Island - The National Museum of American Illustration - which specializes in works of illustrators of "the Golden Age of American Illustration." The museum website lists some of the book and magazine illustrators whose work is displayed in the museum - artists such as N.C. Wyeth, Maxfield Parrish, Norman Rockwell, Howard Pyle, Harvey Dunn, etc.

The museum is in a mansion right next to a park designed by Frederick Law Olmsted.

I'm going on a tour of the museum Wednesday because they have a special exhibit of paintings by children's book and magazine illustrator Maxfield Parrish, including "Daybreak" and "Dream Garden." You folks from Philadelphia probably have heard of "Dream Garden" because Louis Comfort Tiffany recreated the picture in a huge glass mosaic mural available today for public viewing in the Curtis Publishing Building not far from Independence Hall. "Daybreak" sold at Christie's in May this year for $7.6 million.

Here's the museum website: http://www.americanillustration.org/

Here's info about "Dream Garden": http://www.ushistory.org/tour/tour_dreamgarden.htm

Info about "Daybreak": http://www.prwebdirect.com/releases/2006/7/prweb410489.htm

How wonderful for you, Marni. We're great fans of N.C.Wyeth (the whole Wyeth family, in fact). I've bought John a number of the children's classes, just because they were recent editions of the ones illustrated by Wyeth. It's amazing to us to see how large the paintings are. Enjoy, enjoy!!!

Mahlia,, nice to see our picture. We did some back and forth when we were going to Egypt several years ago. Glad to hear you are still around on senior net.

Hi! I'm back from moving and am exhausted, but starting to pick up the posts I've missed. Was it mentioned that Roy Chapman Andrews was the model for Indiana Jones? I'll be reading his bio, too. Sounds like a h--- of a man!

Titled, "Longitude-THe Ilustrated edition" by Dava Sobel, I am so enjoying the drawings in color and b&w. Wonderful to peruse while I am trying to heal. Love to all of you!!

STEPHANIE - thanks for the welcome. Did you ever post your photos or impressions of your Egyptian trip? I looked for them in the Middle East folder, but didn't see them. Perhaps they were archived and I missed them altogether?

Oh, yeah, I guess I had heard that, that he was the model for Indiana Jones. Dragon Hunters looks like great fun.

Oh, yes, I've wanted the illustrated edition. I have the non-illustrated but have not read it yet.

Keep us informed, both of you please. Or at least keep me informed.

Kleo

No, I never post pictures anywhere. I take them and have them on my computer, but none of them were that interesting. I posted briefly when we returned from Egypt, but since I came down a raging case of the shingles while in Egypt, my remarks tended to be laced with all that fear and pain. I must confess that I loved the temples, tombs and sights, but did not like the dirt , confusion, male predominance, and constant hands out.. They lost my luggage and I actually had to pay bribes to retrieve it. I could see it, but they would not bring it over to me until I paid them money.. If you buy things, they want more at the end of the sale,,I just could not deal with that sort of civilization. Never again to the middle east.

marni: Thanks for the most interesting web sites. I enjoyed reading about the history of the Parrish illustration, "Daybreak". I'm a big fan of his surreal art, and so is my daughter. How I would love to see that Tiffany mosiac of "Dream Garden"! I wonder if there is any chance that the exhibition will eventually travel across the country and come to San Francisco? I hope so.

I also like Wyeth and Harrison Fisher. One of my prized possessions is a book that I inherited from my mother, Longfellow's "Song of Hiawatha", with beautiful Fisher illustrations.

Marni thank you for the beautiful sites to enjoy. I haven't looked at all of the links yet. I want to take my time and really enjoy each site.

Speaking of Shingles, anyone who has had chicken pox should get the shingles vaccine. Check with your physician. Stephanie, have you recovered from your attack? I was lucky to get it when I was in my forties, but the older y ou are the worse it is. I knew of a man in his 80's who was in excruciating pain over a year after his attack. Shingles is bad news, folks.

Jackie, just last week my doctor told me that right now the vaccine is not allowable for Seniors under Medicare/insurance - (it would cost $195 without). She said as soon as the official recommendation comes out (and it is imminent) it will then then be an allowable procedure. She recommended I wait until next checkup...

As you say, the recommendation will be for anyone who has had chicken pox and is over 60. (or maybe she said 65)

STEPHANIE - I was sorry to hear of your experiences in Egypt. It is especially difficult to enjoy another culture when one is not feeling well or unprepared for differences in cultural behavior. Years ago I was often invited to teach pre-departure orientation sessions for travelers to the Middle East, Central Asia and China so they would be as prepared as possible for the "differences" which they might encounter. From those experiences, we also designed similar sessions for individuals (professors, graduate students and junior-level diplomats) coming to the USA. I hope your future travel adventures will be much more pleasant!

Mahlia--Isn't there a difference between "cultural differences," which of course exist, and being made to pay someone to get your luggage which has been misdirected and is in plain view. What is to stop a person from going over to reclaim the luggage her/himself?

People who come from other countries to where I live would need to know about the men (almost all are men) who stand at busy stoplights and have cardboard signs that say "Homeless. Please help. God Bless"-- that donating to these men is not required. It is a voluntary action.

What about the example's in Stephanie's post. Can you explain them? I agree with you that visiting anywhere is no fun if you are sick, but let's not blame the messenger.

I once had a bag picked up by an airline representative who had been sent to fetch the unclaimed bags. Instead of picking up the unclaimed black suitcase with green stripes going by its lonely self on the carousel without people, he grabbed my bag, ahead of me, off the carousel surrounded by others from my flight picking up may and their bags on schedule. I told him to stop, that it was my bag. He insisted he had to claim it. I followed him to the airline's claims counter where they forced me to fill out a form for the bag, meanwhile leaving the bag he had been sent to claim unattended. It was soon attended when I pointed out the man now stealing the bag, who was then detained by airport security, then arrested by the local police, who were simply stunned by the airline's ineptitude at requiring my form to be processed for a bag that had just been received from a flight I was on and had the claim check for. The airline's clerk at least had the decency to look chagrined and tore up the form, gave me my bag and sheepishly apologized. If the police had not been there arresting the man who had tried to steal the unattended bag the airline was supposed to retrieve who knows what I would have gone through.

American bureaucrats, especially the petty ones, and the big ones, are no better or worse than the Egyptian ones sound, imo.

Americans just do graft differently from other countries. At least some of the graft, wealthy corporations owning our politicians is pretty much done the same the world over.

On a positive note, another airline ripped a suitcase I had borrowed. It was a cheap suitcase, $44 and my mom had used it to travel to Siberia on numerous occasions--very hard on the bag. It had long outlived its shelf-life, and I was shipping it home empty with my other luggage just to return it to her. However, because it had been ripped during transport the airline gave me an "equivalent" bag--a top of the line name-brand suitcase costing hundreds of dollars that will last a lifetime. I said this wasn't necessary, but they insisted.

Kleo

I think that would get tiresome. On the other hand, one thing my Afghan relatives say about coming to America that never fails to shock them is the predominance of nude and scantily dressed women on billboards, the sides of buses, magazine covers, televisions shows and everywhere they look. I grew up in a country exposed to women's busts being revealed so I don't really know how they feel. I did travel by public transit with an Egyptian family once, from Hayward to San Francisco, they pointing it out to me along the way. I was more than a bit unpleasantly shocked.

Still, I love Egyptian women, the ones I meet in the States, as Egyptians tend to be worldly, well educated and fascinated by history and archaeology. Of course I'm meeting a biased group.

Kleo

DEEMS - certainly there is a difference, as you point out, among the citizens of the host country and airport personnel, as well as individuals on the streets (especially in the poorer sections of a city). And how visitors respond to them is an individual matter, coupled with how fatigued one might be as the result of a long trip, not feeling well, one's level of patience (or lack thereof), and whether supervisors/managers/security officials at the airport are readily available and willing to help.

Equally important, IMO, is one's understanding of what might take place in an airport and how to deal with the situation. Lost, misplaced, or erroneously claimed luggage is often a problem worldwide. I've experienced the loss (or near loss) of luggage myself and its stressful.

My major thought in responding to STEPHANIE's experiences in the earlier post was to say I regret that her trip to Egypt was not more pleasant. Egypt is an enormously poor country, so begging on the streets is common. Yet it is also common on the streets of Washington DC (near where I lived for 35 years). Many of the street people in that area are Veterans addicted to drugs, who are unemployed and homeless. And there are many more female beggars in recent years. I would often see the same people when I volunteered in shelters whom I'd passed on the roads reaching the shelter or crossing bridges or even in the streets around universities.

Yet, poverty in a country one is visiting and whose poor beggars are more visible than those at home often strikes a more unpleasant note. That aspect, coupled with the "predominance of men" can certainly be unsettling or as KLEO mentions tiresome. Yet those two components are part of the everyday life in Egypt, as in many regions of the world.

Another excellent point KLEO makes is that "Americans do graft differently." I'd venture to say that's true at almost all levels. Since relocating to the Charlotte NC area two summers ago, I've become much more aware of the sex slave trade in the Southeastern region of the USA than I ever was in the metropolitan Washington DC area. Twenty miles from my current home, several people were recently arrested for such an operation which involved women and children from Asia, Russia, Ukraine, and South and Central America. The local newspaper carries numerous stories about the gruesome sexual abuse of children - much more ink is given to this topic than what I was accustomed to in Washington.

Travel as a whole has become much more tiring, whether within the North American continent or to the far reaches of the globe. Yet if one is well prepared, the strain may be less.

KLEO - I've enjoyed your posts and recall the vibrancy of your participation in earlier books discussions in which we both participated. As I read your comments about how your African relatives responded to the American custom of public advertising with little regard to personal modesty, I recalled the father of one of my former Afghan students (who was visiting in the USA years ago) storming into my university office with a dept. store advertisement in his hand illustrating womens' lingerie. He demanded that his son immediately be brought to him so that he could accompany him back to Afghanistan. He did not want his son educated in our "heathen" society. I also recall the wives of several Egyptian graduate students who had been prevented by their husbands from shopping in dept. stores for fear they would see mannequins "almost nude." Of course that did not keep the men from visiting those same dept. stores!

GINNY - I wondered if you or anyone at SN has participated in Egypt's National Book fairs? Or has an interest in doing so?

the baggage taken off the carosel before I could get there. I fimally went to the lost and found and it was there and they gave it to me without any further ado. but at that time my hip made walking painful, still does, and I was forced to do a lot of it before the situation was resolved. this at a local airport LONG BEACH CALIFORNIA. just an embloyee screw-up. It happens. . . . claire

Marilyne and Hats: I'm off tomorrow to Newport with my sister and sister-in-law to tour the National Museum of American Illustration. I'm so excited. I'm really looking forward to seeing "Dream Garden" by Maxfield Parrish. I saw the Tiffany mural in Philadelphia (which is there permanently) so it will be neat to see the original painting.

Marilyne, I don't know where the Parrish works are touring, or even if they are on tour. I just read that they were on special exhibit at this museum for 7 weeks, with this week being the last week. I'll see if I can find out when I'm there.

I also found out that my husband's grandfather's work is displayed there. I was told, when I called for reservations, that staff at the museum will be prepared to answer questions about him when we arrive. Unfortunately, my husband has to work and can't go with us; but maybe another time.

I think it's made out of glass.

saw on Booktv an author who had written a book about WArd BEecher - i just can't get my little finger off that caps key quickly enough any more - and she was at the Harriet BEecher Stowe Center in Hartford! Tho't of you......jean

Marni have a wonderful time today. Tell us more when you return please.

Oh, Mahlia.. you misunderstood. Beggars do not upset me. We have them in the states. I was speaking of the universal ( at least on our trip) trait that insists on being tipped for nothing. When we left the airport with our tour guide. He had to stop three different places and tip before we were allowed to leave. When they found my luggage ( 24 hours after arrival), they would not give it to me, although the guide and I had photo id, etc. Then the man who insisted he had no english.. rubbed his fingers together in the universal language and my guide said.. a tip or nothing., so we tipped him. When I bought a really lovely bracelet in a regular store, when the deal was made and settled, the sales man wrapped it up and then held it back and said,, now what do I get for extra.. I was appalled.. I raised my voice and inquired as to what was he asking. He blushed and the manager hurried over.. I got my bracelet. That was the behavior that I did not understand.. I hope it is not cultural.. just bad.. If you think we have bare ladies.. try Germany or France.. Wow.. the commercials always make me laugh and laugh.. I would guess that Sex sells in Europe..We have traveled all over the world and Egypt was the only place besides Mexico that turned me off.

STEPHANIE - Thanks for the clarification. I understand about Germany and France, too. Sounds like the store employee who sold the bracelet just was looking out for himself with little sense of good customer service. Mexico can certainly be harsh, but also offers some lovely scenery and in my experience, really gracious and friendly people.

When my sister went to Mexico in the eighties it was the first real exposure she had to abject poverty. She was not repelled by people begging but she was terribly upset. My son went out of the tourist area in Bali Indonesia and saw his first demonstration of poverty. He too was terribly upset. Both my sister and my son felt deeply for the people who had no means of earning a living other than selling useless trinkets or begging. Both of them came home and realised what they had regarded as poverty here was richness compared to what they had seen on their trips.

There is so much poverty in the world and we are mostly isolated from it. Sometimes it is good to get a reality check.

CAROL - indeed there is enormous poverty in the world and I am always pleased to see the younger generation (as well as folks my own age) try to assist those in great need. In today's local paper, a writer outlines the efforts of several young people who commit some of their time to online tutoring of students in Africa, designing web sites for folks in various countries as they begin small businesses, and experienced business people helping those just getting started in world regions. Although many people are able to devote onsite time to helping in various world regions, others cannot because of time commitments at home, lack of travel funds or time, etc. So they use their skills in virtual time to help others. Another young woman who has been fascinated with languages since childhood spends her summers tutoring English in foreign countries, while she also has the opportunity to study the local languages. She's a college student and her parents worried about her safety in some volatile regions, but she has planned carefully, contacted host country officials and continued to offer her skills as a tutor, while improving her own language skills.

Persia my son does business in China and was horrified at the prices the big Corporations pay to the Manufacturers. They really screw them down. He offered to pay more - almost twice the amount they get from the big boys. I heard a TV documentary maker say that paying $1 more in the stores here would enable manufacturers to pay their staff more. At the moment they only get a few cents an hour in China and the factories are sweat shops. We should lobby our big discount stores to pay more and would we miss our extra $1. I think not! Yikes I better get off my hobby horse before Marcie growls me!

Carolyn

I think the wages are about $.40-$50 cents an hour in Chinese factories, a bit more than minimum wage. I don't know the cost of living China. American manufacturers tend to build dormitories and allow the workers to live there for free, other items might be free. The Chinese work in the factories rather than living in their rural villages with their families because they earn money. None of this excuses any sweatshop practices by manufacturers, and the fact is it is destroying Chinese family life and culture, something no money will ever be able to replace when it is gone. All so we can buy a cheap doodad in a store to replace a cheap doodad we bought 6 months ago from Wal-Mart.

Carolyn, I like your hobby-horse. Why not just find a great book associated with it and pop it up here? It's an important topic.

Kleo

Kleo there was a doco at our International film festival recently about the sweat industry in Asia. I will try to find the title in my program. At present I do not have a book to refer to but I am sure they exist.

Carolyn

I recall that when I spent 6 months in China in the mid-eighties, I was shocked to learn about the cost of food for students in the campus dining hall. Since I was being paid in Chinese currency (as well as continuing to receive my US salary during my absence), I asked if I could contribute my funds to the students. The Chinese university administration was furious that I would even think of such a thing! I found ways around their unhappiness with me and managed to pay for meals for my TABLE - which was actually 32 tables placed together at one end of the large dining hall. In the last week before I returned to the US, I hosted a large Bon Voyage party - actually for my students to tell me bon voyage - and managed to turn over all of my remaining Chinese currency to them before I departed. At that time, the university pres. earned something equivalent to $32 monthly.

CAROLYN - I agree with KLEO. Let's take a deeper look at this very important topic.

My son took a whole class of children into MacDonalds and bought them icecreams they were about five years old and were on an educational trip downtown in Shanghai. They were VERY happy as they all walked off licking their icecreams. Every trip my son goes to China he sees more. He was really horrified to see very old ladies street sweeping in a smaller provincial city. Since this regime took over there are few pensions and no health care schemes. No wonder so many take the old medicines from the corner herbalist.

Carolyn

Oh, I see the Chinese-educated corner herbalist, also. Not due to lack of health care, but out of respect for the way its done, looking at the whole human being as an individual. My western-educated Chinese doctor has no problems with my Korean herbalist.

Carolyn, your picture will only become more common, though. Sadly, the old who have long held an honored tradition in Chinese culture are part of what is going with the introduction of sweat shops to China. Still, unlike other Asian countries, Westerners have major say in how their shops are run in China. Please everyone read and push American, Australian, and European manufacturers to do right by our cut-wage workers in Asia.

Carolyn, let me know what you find.

Kleo

I saw the National Museum of American Illustration in Newport today. It was terrific! It's right on Bellevue Ave along with a whole bunch of other famous mansions that are open to the public. We had a guided tour and there were rooms and rooms filled with illustrations - with emphasis on N.C. Wyeth, Howard Pyle, Maxfield Parrish, Norman Rockwell, and J.C. Leyendecker. There was a special exhibit of Maxfield Parrish works including his largest work, The Florentine Fetes, his masterpiece Daybreak, and Dream Garden which was reproduced as a huge glass mosaic mural now permanently displayed in the Curtis Publishing Co. building near Independence National Park in Philadelphia. This was the largest collection of Maxfield Parrish that has ever been displayed.

It was wonderful. I found out that Daybreak was purchased in May for $7.6 million and the buyer is being kept secret. The painting will be displayed only until the end of this week and then will NOT be on a tour. Apparently, it is going to the owner and may well never be shown again, according to our docent. She said that when the painting Daybreak was first created in 1920 specifically to be reproduced, it was so popular that 1 out of every 4 homes in America had a copy.

Here's info about Maxfield Parrish and Daybreak along with some pictures of other illustrations. Scroll down towards the bottom to see Daybreak. http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/parrish.htm

Those illustrations are wonderful!

Carolyn

The author of My name is Red has written a travelogue about Istanbul, I found it on Barnes and Noble site. I sent the page to my daughter with a message. I would love this book for Christmas. Hint Hint Hint! I am sure she will get it for me. Her fiance comes from Istanbul that is why I am particularly interested in it. Barnes and Noble say it is a lively book and its one of the critics award nominations.

Carolyn

Marni thank you. I am glad the trip went well.

The Illustrations sound just wonderful. I love NewPort. Nice walkable area. I find that most of my dislike of Mexico is two fold. One , I dislike being touched by strangers and I found in Mexico, when we left the hotel and hit the street, the vendors would come up and pull at me. A friend says that I look vulnerable.. Who knows. The other was at one of the resorts, when I was there at a convention, there was a large contingent of upperclass Mexicans. They had brought their servants with them and being outside by the pool, we were regaled with the horrible spite and language of the upperclass to their servants. Most people treat their animals better than these people treated their servants. Whew..I guess I will never forget that, although it was years ago, because I could not believe they were doing it. I am sure that there is a lot of poverty in Egypt, but truth on a tour, you dont really see it. The hands out were anyone who had any contact with the tourists. Americans seemed to be regarded as the persons to push at.. We had a german couple in our tour and they had no trouble. I think it is the look.

MARNI, the Maxfield pictures were beautiful! Thank you for the link. I have a huge jigsaw puzzle of a Maxfield Parrish painting, entitled "The Enchanted Prince". I did not even attempt to put it together. I spread out the pieces, and found that there was so little dissimilarity between the colors and patterns that it was virtually impossible to decide what might go where! I was glad to see other, more clearly defined, examples of his work.

Babi

yes, she writes the first half as Nora Roberts and apparently - i haven't gotten there yet - the second half as Robb.The first half in Maryland, the second half in NYC w/ Dallas and Roarke. The title is "Remember When."

But i tho't of it because of Marni's mentioning Maxfield Parrish because the lead male character's name is Max, named for MP and the lead female gives him an MP painting as a gift.

So far it's a good book - you're all right about the sex scenes, many of them don't do much to advance the story. If any of you have read this book, the Max character comes across in my mind as the actor Matther McConnaughy (sp?) Southern accent, real cute, real confident.......great eye candy.........jean

It is actually known that the culture in the US is to tip. Tipping is not required here but anyone here in the Tourism business will be looking for tips from the Americans. I think you have been stymied by your own culture of tipping. They know at home you tip so they expect it when you travel. They know which cultures tip and which don't.

Interesting point, Carolyn. In some cultures you simply don't tip, but I had not thought that people would generally expect Americans to tip. Yes, in America, we prefer the rich to pay less for everything, tipping is one way of assuring this, the owners of the restaurants don't have to pay a fair wage, but the customers do.

Kleo

The standard tip has now gone up from 15% to 20%. I still like to use a tip as a reward, though, rather than a requirement. I think a tip is due when good service is provided. A bigger tip is due when excellent service is provided and vice versa.

I have a tool on my new cell phone that I really use - a tip calculator. You "type" in the bill amount and the tip percent (default is 15%.) The default number of people splitting the bill is 1. You can change it to however many are splitting the payment. The calculator automatically calculates the tip amount and the amount each pays plus the grand total.

The only problem is that it doesn't include a separate field for tax. You have to provide the total bill amount so the tip is calculated on the amount including the tax. You aren't supposed to have to base the tip on the tax plus meal amount.

We had an unfriendly waitress at our restaurant in Newport last evening. Nice place on the water but a rather unpleasant waitress who never once smiled although we got our dinner in a timely manner. We paid her less of a tip than we would pay normally.

I was astounded at the tipping that goes on in the US. My friends were talking about tipping the dog groomer, the hairdresser and goodness knows who else. Its just not expected here except at Christmas we might give those people a small gift with a card.

Carolyn

The tipping in the U.S. has really expanded, too, Carolyn. Now everywhere you go - even just any store - there is a box or cup by the cash register where the checkout person is hoping you'll put a tip. Often there is a "TIPS" sign on the cup.

On top of that, more and more at various places you are asked to give money to a charity - like at the movie theater they are always collecting for the Jimmy Fund before the film starts, passing a box around for money. Plus now you have to watch ads on top of paying for the movie and donating to charity.

Once upon a time I gave to a lot of charities and now I am in changed circumstances so my giving has had to be curtailed in a lot of areas. I am constantly getting phone calls to my home asking for Money. I feel like saying "I give to those charities I espouse which is all I can afford"

I ignore the tips jars in self serve restaurants. I do tip the hair dresser, but I am not sure why.. Restaurants that take my order, bring the food and do a good job.. yes, I tip.. But more and more we are watching our bills closely. My husband generally does the paying in sit down type restaurants. But I picked up a bill about three months ago and realized we were overcharged.. He did not even notice ( ah, retired businessmen). So I started reaching for the bill and checking it.. 1 out of 5 are wrong. That is way too high a percentage..So I check and he agrees to let me. Yes, Canadians in the US have a bad reputation in tourist areas for not tipping at all.. Which surprises me because when we have traveled to Canada, most of the restaurants did not add anything in. I dont mind tipping as much as I mind just putting out your hand for doing nothing except being there. Opening doors?? come on..

Marni - I enjoyed hearing about your visit to the American Illustrators exhibit. Thanks for sharing it with us. I'm sorry to hear that it won't be going on tour, but I have read that it's prohibitively expensive to take any major art exhibit on tour nowadays.

The last one I saw was the Andy Warhol Exhibit, at the Museum of Modern Art (MOMA) in Los Angeles, about five years ago. I was less than enthusiastic at first, when my daughter got tickets for us to go, as I had never been a big Warhol fan. But I quickly changed my mind, and was SO GLAD that I went. We were both absolutely enthralled by the whole show. It was fabulous. So much more to his art, than the famous soup cans!

Marilyne, your comments about the Warhol exhibit are like what we experienced when we went to the Salvador Dali museum in St. Petersburg (Tampa?), FL. We sort of thought how many slumped watches can you see... But we were so impressed by the talent of this very disturbed man. Wow! Make that a stop if you're ever in the Tampa/St. Pete area.

I was 15 when I saw a Van Gogh exhibition. I have never forgotten it.

Carolyn

Marilyne: That is a shame the Maxfield Parrish painting Daybreak won't be coming your way. But you never know about some of the other works.

Carolyn: I saw a touring Van Gogh exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum back in....1970, I think. Wow. That was the most amazing art exhibit I've ever seen. I had always loved seeing his paintings in books and calendars, but they are simply nothing compared to the real thing - so extraordinarily vivid.

I've seen a couple of non-art touring exhibits. I suppose they are cheaper, depending on what is touring. One of them was a tour of famous valuable American documents that visited the University of Hartford - the real McCoy - like pages from The Emancipation Proclamation. They must need a lot of security for that type of thing, too, especially nowadays. This past winter I saw a touring Darwin exhibit that was neat - Darwin letters, photos, specimens from his voyage on The Beagle, even two Galapagos iguanas.

These tours must all have to spend a lot on insurance.

Why astonishing. The tipping is just another example of the generosity of Americans. Of an inclination to share the wealth. Of a readiness to extend humanitarian aid after every disaster in the world. I believe the heavy tipper has the best sense of what happiness it is to receive. Why begrudge the deserving the pleasure of a decent tip. Put yourself in their shoes...

It can be great fun to give.

I don't begrudge the deserving, however, I like a wage for a service and/or product stated up front. In American tipping the only place this occurs is if you dine out with a party of 6 or more, where tip is calculated. But it's not stated on the menu.

So, I go to the dog groomer, or to have my hair done, or to take a taxi ride, and the price I am quoted is NOT the price I am expected to pay. I would like to just have it all up front.

I do tip, generously when the service is done well, sufficiently when it is adequate to good, and insufficiently or not at all when the service is inadequate. Inadequate service and a poor tip is always discussed with the manager. People who don't tip in America should realize that wait staff in restaurants are taxed on their checks for tables served as if all customers had tipped them 15%. The good old IRS.

Still, I like my graft straight-forward and direct. I'm tired of not getting the quoted price for anything, all these expectations of the hands out waiting to be filled for more than the listed price.

Kleo

In my opinion tipping has gotten out of hand in the U.S. I would much rather it was just added in the total of the bill and don't think it isn't lots of the time.

My favorite is the tip jar where you drive up for a cup of coffee and pay four bucks for it.

We stopped going to brunch at one resturant when I questioned something or other and found out by accident we were doubling tipping as they included the tip in the sunday brunch and never bothered to mention it. Never went back there.

In the U.S. people who wait table make $2,10 an hour. Tips are the bulk of their livelihood.

Hairdresers, unless they own the shop, have to pay rent for their station. Much of their livelihood comes from tips, too.

Back in the 50's I sang and played the piano in a non-union lounge in a hotel for $35.00 a week and whatever tips people put in that glass on top of the piano.

Granted there is some unnecessary tipping here, but we don't always know all the facts behind it.

Mal

Yes, that's true. I forgot that when my friends were waitresses back in the 70s the restaurant was allowed to pay them less than minimum wage based on the fact that they earned tips. That's still the case? Wow!

Kleo

I live in a small apartment building in a very small town in the Pocono Mountains in Pennsylvnia. Last weekend there was a yard sale across from the parking lot. My neighbor and I went over. He ended up selling a tower fan. I came home with five books that were given to me.

I've been enjoying one of those books all week. It is The Fourth Inspector Morse Omnibus and contains three Inspector Morse Mysteries by Colin Dexter. What a fine writer he is. How clever, how perceptive, how versed in the classics. I am impressed.

Mal

Malryn, enjoy those Colin Dexters. But what a pity there will be no more Morse tales.

Re: tipping -- I've taken two river barge trips and there was NO Tipping. Of course, it was all included up front in your charge, but how much easier it was. And the service was excellent.

At the Books at the Beach Get Together over a dozen of us went out for brunch/lunch. At the end of the meal we each had an individualized bill including the tip amount. It can be done right if the service industry puts its mind to it. I much prefer it up front.

I love Inspector Morse. I especially enjoy them on audio. I sometimes miss things cause I am a speed reader but listening I get every single word.

carolyn

I took myself to a new spa that just opened in Redmond. It was my birthday present to me haha Their policy includes no tipping, I thought what a good idea. They must pay their people good money because they had great technitions.

I much prefer a spa that includes it all. I hate the fact that tour guides are expected to be tipped as well as your drivers. I would much prefer that to be included in the tour price. Restaurants have different standards for tips in the US. At least according to the training I received as a tax counseler. Very high end restaurants take at least 15% as a guideline, but if the restaurant can prove the average tip is less, they will be able to pass this on to their help.

I bet your back is much better now! Happy Birthday, dear friend and of course, a hug for Ms Martha!

Am doing our summer reading for the library F2F and what a delightful book! The title is "Cordelia Underwood: Or The Marvelous Beginnings of the Moosepath League" by Van Reid. My understanding is that it is the first of a trilogy which starts in 1896. Good story telling and such fun! Something very different for the dog days of summer.

When I have the right change I always leave my tip (20%) in cash at a restaurant when I'm paying by credit card.

If good service, the amount tipped was the approved percentage of her generation.

If bad service, she left 1 penny so the server would know that she didn't forget to tip

And her verbal "tip" offered was "Don't play the horses!"

One thing that she always reminded us was that these waiters and waitresses made poor hourly money and they depended on us to appreciate their service and tip accordingly.

but I find the small southern town and it's communication system which is what this is all about MISS JULIA MEETS HER MATCH to be not to my personal liking. I have to fight with this all the way through, although most of Miss Julias musings are interesting except for those that involve the opinions of others and she's funny at times. I force myself to continue.

She's an engaging character and I recognize some of myself in her as an aging devils advocate and independent spirit. I know she is well loved by many since the series keeps having off spring.

claire

Why do you force yourself to read something you're not enjoying, Claire?

I enjoy Miss Julia, but as in all things, my taste in whatever is not everyone else's. That's why it's wonderful to have so many choices and to make them freely. I think my life is too short to read books I don't enjoy and to use paper napkins.

Jane, I had to laugh at your not reading books you don't enjoy or use paper napkins. To those, for myself, I'll add not eating REAL butter.

Garrison Keillor fans, he's got a comedy show on this week. Check your PBS schedule.

Grew up on a farm. we made our own butter ( My mother was a purist) and I never eat butter as an adult.. Not the same taste at all. But I give books about 50 pages and then lower the boom is I am not happy.

Thank you very much, MrsSherlock, for calling our attention to the Garrison Keillor annual comedy show. I listened for two hours and collapsed on the floor.

Robby

Shucks, after Robby's enthusiastic endorsement, I wanted to see that Garrison Keillow program. No luck. It's not listed as appearing on my local station, either upcoming or recently. Still, I'll keep my eyes open. Maybe it will show up later.

Babi

His comedy show pans everybody -- Lutherans, Baptists, Jews, blondes, - nobody is left out. The crowd roared in laughter

Did you hear about the pregnant blonde who went to the physician for a maternity check to see if the baby was hers? Just a sample.

Robby

We still get butter which is totally pure here. Try some Anchor NZ butter. It does not come in sticks but in a pound block. Just like the old days! As I am on a low fat diet all the time I have no guilt in using a little butter in moderation sometimes on my toast and in the little bit of baking I do - like muffins and scones. I think its infinitely preferably to ingesting all those chemicals found in Margerine. Have a good read on the back of the margie carton and look up the numbers on the Food manufacturers list which gives you the names of the additives.

We can get soft butter which comes in a carton and is a mix of butter and sunflower oil - nothing else but salt in it.

Carolyn

There is a nice yogurt and butter mix here in the states. It is semi soft and has a nice sort of yogurt taste. I love yogurt in all of hits forms, so get that if I need to have something on bread. But like you say,, I am on lo fat pretty much constantly, so dont use much of that at all.

We also get a nice butter/canola oil mix which is easy to spread. My husband uses a lot of extra virgin, first cold pressed olive oils in his cooking of his varous fishes. I use them and some canola as needed for my "white egg" omelettes, etc when the spray oils just aren't enough for ease of cooking.

jane

I have used Smart Balance Light margarine since it came on the market. I think it has a butter taste. JOY

My husband has cholorestrol problems and loves Smart Balance.. So we all have our substitutes..

Thank you Mahlia and Everyone for the nice words on the roses, they just keep getting prettier and prettier, I am convinced roses in pots are the way to go.

Lots of excitement tomrorow as a best selling author, Matthew Pearl, comes into SeniorNet's Books to talk about his newest one, The Poe Shadow. Don't miss this opportunity, he's fabulous, he really is.

Amazon is reporting that Naguib Mahfouz, has died today. He was born in 1911.

- Naguib Mahfouz, the Egyptian novelist who was the first (and so far only) writer in Arabic to win the Nobel Prize for Literature, died this morning at the age of 94. He was a remarkably prolific writer, but nearly everyone cites his Cairo Trilogy as his masterpiece....

I sure am sorry to hear that, we really enjoyed reading his Palace Walk and talking with Dr. Peter Allen who was on NPR about him and was a personal friend, in fact, went out to see him while we had the discussion. Great writer.

Speaking of NPR,. did you catch the Morning Edition August 29? Wikiality on "truthiness, " or truth unencumbered by the facts, " and Wikiality: ("reality as determined by majority vote?"

It's a hoot:

"Stephen Colbert gets credit for influencing the language. A group called Global Language Monitor credits Colbert, who parodies a conservative TV host, with "truthiness." The word is defined as "truth unencumbered by the facts." He also used a word inspired by Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia. "Wikiality" means "reality as determined by majority vote." The group now calls them the top-two TV buzzwords -- that is, reality as determined by what's said on television.

Really makes you think.

I am desperate for a good book. A book you can't put down. A book you carry everywhere and stay up late reading. SO desperate in fact I have picked back up the Ripley series by Patricia Highsmith, which I've read probably 12 times to read again and have started the first in the Raj Quartet, which was written in 1966, I have all of them and have never gotten thru one, so far I like the way he writes.

Recommend a GOOD book?

Ginny:-Have you tried Volume Four of The Story of Civilization?

Robby

Ginny - yes, _Snowflower and the Secret Fan_.

Kathy

If Raj Quartet is the series I think it is on India and the road to freedom, it was really really good. Read it a good while ago. Gripping.. Ginny try Folly by Laurie King. It is one of her stand alones and is really engrossing.

Stephanie ~ I was thinking of getting Folly by L. King, but the blurb on Amazon put me off. Is it as depressing as the reviews make it sound? Do tell a little bit more; if it is worth it, I'll order it!

Ginny ~ Have you read the series by John Maddox Roberts, about ancient Rome ... or don't you like
Roman history in fictional form? The 8th one in the series (2004) is set in the year 70. SPQR VIII is entitled
The River God's Vengeance.
The gangs of Clodius and Milo are clashing in the streets of Rome ...
Not too serious, but seems to me to be historically accurate.

The discussion of The Murders in the Rue Morgue is open for your posts. Follow this link to the discussion.

The Murders in the Rue Morgue

Bill H

And while reading Poe's stories, you will surely be interested in reading Matthew Pearl's novel, employing Poe's methods of discovery as he seeks to solve the mystery surrounding Poe's death. M. Pearl plans to join us in the discussion, sharing information not published before which he unearthed in his three years of research on Edgar Poe. (Note no "Allan!) Join us here this morning - Poe Shadow ~ Matthew Pearl ~

Well I hope that I get "The Poe Shadow" read and can participate in the discussion. I am not sure though as I am hooked on these little light books about Old women right now.

I do love Poe though and want to read and discuss the book.

Joan Grimes

JoanG - I've been meaning to ask you how your eyes are working? Would love to have a Poe lover in the discussion.

Plan to discuss ONE of the five books a week. Don't read the whole book or you'll have to sit on the denouement for a month!

We're talking generalities right now. WOuld love to have you drop in and comment about how you feel about other Poe stories you've read. Were they ALL morbid with death as a subject? I'm off to read some other of his stories right now.

I've read Folly. I didn't find it depressing, more somber in mood. After all, the story of a depressive 60+ year old woman tackling the job of building a burned-out cabin by herself is not a bundle of laughs. But it is a story of not accepting other's labels, setting one's own goals, and taking risks. Universal themes, I would think.

Ms Sherlock I like those sort of books. I like to read about the human spirit.

Carolyn

Thanks, Mrs. S ~ I think I'll postpone a somber book selection for right now, as the end of summer is not the most cheerful time of the year for me. But the other books of Laurie King, the series about Mary Russell and Sherlock Holmes, are an absolutely terrific romp. I'm on the seventh one of the series, and love them.

I am reading Folly and loving it. She is depressive indeed, but seems to somehow be lifting herself into a better idea of life. I am starting to admire her and the will to decide how her life should be.

Oh it sounds wonderful to me, just the ticket, they all do, thank you all so much for the recommendations!! I've ordered Folly, too, but this morning am sunk in Ripley.

The Talented Mr. Ripley by Patricia Highsmith, the WRITING the WRITING the WRITING her ability with the language. Her ability to suck you IN and never let you go and somehow, somehow her ability to get you ON the side of this.....person...and engage your sympathy, not for everybody's taste but I bet you can't put it down. I can't. I've read it three times before, all 5 in the series, the further she went with that character the better she got: he became respectable with skeletons in his closet and you were totally on his amoral side, believe it or not. I've seen the movie several times (it has Jude Law and the guy who played Capote in it, and Matt Damon as Tom Ripley) but this time it's like reading it anew, can't put it down, read it till midnight and picked it up this morning, that's the ticket: just exactly what was wanted.

What a strange world Highsmith creates, Everyman Amok, some of her fiction is too much, tooo far over the edge, tooo scary, but the Ripley series is a work of genius, reminds me of Johnny Depp for some reason. Even stranger is how she manages to not only engage the reader into it, she manages to trap you, too, into being on the side of, rooting for, and understanding the protagonist.

But this time something is bothering me about Mr. Greenleaf and Tom and I am wondering if she will pull if off in the end. Every time you read something it changes because you have changed, love it.

I know how it comes out. I know what happens, but READING it is a true pleasure, what a wonderful series of books she created .I can barely read her other things, they are SOO hard edged. I have read (Stranger (s?) on a Train), another famous movie, but I do think in the Ripleys she achieved a pinnacle.

Love those Vintage Press paperbacks, too, by Random House, beautiful paperbacks, a pleasure to read. Largeish. Pleasure to even open, they do that crackling thing with the pages, not the spine? I'm hooked.

I really like Random House because they have been very good in Publishing NZ fiction! Penguin Publishes a lot here too.

Oh, Ginny, let me know if the book is worth reading, as I really enjoyed the movie.

Kleo

That's a big YES Kleo, this is the 4th time I have read it (at least). If you liked the movie you'll love the series (5) and you'll be very surprised what happens to Tom.

Carolyn,

I love reading local setting books, too. There is a series of murder mysteries by a woman who sets them in Berkeley that are outside my usual reading area, but I read them because they are set locally. I also like the ones by the lady whose protagonist is a geologist. I like mysteries, but only really well-written ones. They're both good writers, but not on the level of James Lee Burke or Anne Perry or that Navajo dude. But this is fine for the opportunity to read locally.

Kleo

Oh, great, Ginny, I am looking for something a bit lighter to read right now. Thanks. And the library has them.

Kleo

I've seen the book FOLLY mentioned several times on SeniorNet. I've had the book for a while, but haven't gotten around to reading it. Anyway, I Googled "Laurie R. King" and found three interesting links I thought you might like. Carol

Laurie King's website

Questions and answers about FOLLY

Laurie King's Blog

Thanks for the links. Just read your Q and A on Folly. Interesting indeed.

WOW!Laurie almost sounds like a more fascinating character than those she writes. I've added her blog to my bookmarks. Thank you, WinchesterLady.

She sure does, I've got her book on the way!

News!!

Wally Lamb writes that he has mentioned SeniorNet and the Prison Library Project in an essay published today in the Hartford Courant's Sunday magazine, N(orth)E(ast).

It's called "Revisions and Corrections" and is about "the prison controversy, the women's book, and the good that ultimately came of it--one of which was SeniorNet's initiative to stock prison libraries with books." Four of his newer students have essays published in this issue.

I can't get it online but he's sending me one. This might bring in new people curious so please be watching for them!!

We are at 4,181 books in the project, and I had timidly thought of asking him to write a greeting or something when we hit 5,000. Looks like he hasn't forgotten us!

What a guy.

Pat found the article:

http://www.courant.com/news/local/northeast/

Pat West found it. Really good photo of him and here's a quote:

http://www.courant.com/news/local/northeast/

The writing of "Couldn't Keep It to Myself" was wrenching for the women who bared their souls, and its publication was hard-won. But the unpredicted ripple effect caused by its existence has proven worth the pain. Without ever having met my teacher, Gladys Swan, the inmates had followed her advice by writing what they needed to write and letting the audience that needed to find it find it. The book has been translated into foreign languages, and here in America, it has become required reading for many middle and high school students, college sociology and psychology majors and law-enforcement officers.

And there's more. When SeniorNet, an on-line website service for people over 50, featured "Couldn't Keep It to Myself" in its monthly book discussion, the women's essays triggered an initiative. To date, SeniorNet members have collected and shipped thousands of books to American prison libraries. And back home, the book begat a change in the law. Although you never read this in The Hartford Courant until today, it is now illegal for the state of Connecticut to sue its inmates for the rehabilitative work they do. For me, there was a final, personal sweetness: After the dust settled, I received an unexpected package in the mail from the publisher of "Couldn't Keep It to Myself," Judith Regan. When I opened it, out slipped a 35th anniversary edition of "To Kill a Mockingbird." It was signed by Harper Lee.

Beautiful thing. Read that, it's very powerful. Beautiful man, an inspiration to all of us. Proud to be associated in any way with him.

Come help us get to the 5,000th book and thank you all very much for all you've done to help!!

What an absolutely super article. He said wonderful things about SeniorNet, but the whole article is just something. And here is his son who sounds like he's going to be just and caring and compassionate as his dad. Unbelievable about the commissioner leaving York and going to Abu Grahib. Yikes.

Reading Laurie King's blog about carpentry reminded me of how much i loved being in my father's woodworking loft above our garage when i was growing up. I loved the smell of the freshly cut or shaved wood and playing w/ the curly shavings that came off the plane. I often tho't, as an adult, that if i had been born 20yrs later, i might have been a carpenter. .........have to find that book.......

Our library is having their book sale next week-end, i'm considering not even going - altho i doubt i have the constitution to resist - since i still have a stack of books from the spring sale that i haven't yet read........aarrgghh!......jean

GINNY - I'm coming late to this discussion, but if you are still reading about India, then you might also enjoy M. M. Kaye's THE FAR PAVILIONS. It is a "mighty read" about 19th century India, the British Officers and their Indian (all tribes) soldiers; the gorgeous scenery of the Northwest Frontier, and the daunting South; the "glories of the Regiment" juxtaposed against the local tribal leaders and the Maharajas of the diverse regions; the customs one shrinks from and those which make great sense; and, most interestingly, how a young lad (born of eccentric British parents in India) passes for a native for many years, before being sent to his father's relatives in England for his education and then returns to assume his long-sought position in the Guides Regiment and re-learns all about his birth country. Absolutely fascinating, fast moving, suspenseful, gorgeous and scary all at once. I've read my copy so often over the years that it is literally falling to pieces.

I love M.M. Kaye's Far Pavilions and have also read it many times. I also have enjoyed her short mystery novels set in some of the places where her father and husband were stationed with the British Army. My favorite Kaye novel, though, is Tradewinds about the young Abolitionist who is sent to Madagascar to "straighten her out". It's a very readable novel and I've read it lots of times. In my recent move, I lost most of my M.M. Kaye novels including Pavilions and Trade Winds. Sue

Pavilions, if I remember correctly, had the hero going into dangerous Pakistan/Afghanistan on a dangerous mission. Do you recall this? I've thought about it a lot since the War in Afghanistan.

I recommended FAR PAVILIONS to my son, David, when he deployed to Afghanistan (following an earlier deployment to Iraq) in summer 2004, so that he could learn about the cultures of the NW Frontier - the crossings between the countries, the tribes, behaviors, etc. (which have not changed much in all these years!). He used the text often for his "cultural briefings" for officers and soldiers, so a lot was gained from that one book. Not only was the book a good read for me, but an absolutely invaluable cultural reference tool for David and his men.

The hero, Ashok (born of English parents, who named him Ashton Hilary Pelham-Martyn), slipped easily into the high hill tribal culture and went on several dangerous missions, after spending his childhood in the Southern provinces before joining the British Guides as an officer. Really, a GREAT read!

It took M, M. Kaye fifteen years to write that book and me almost as long to read it. Every thing else she wrote was a disappointment to me after that. but . . . maybe TRADE WINDS will be a good one. Is it long?

claire

ooo Far Pavilions I have heard of that and wasn't it a series, too? Great recommendation, I'll add it to the list as am tearing thru the psycopath Ripley too fast too fast, am on the second one now, too fast. hahaa

I'll order it, too, thank you!

I loved Far Pavilions as well, but think the Raj quartet gave me a better inner picture of India before independence on all sides. The Raj, the natives, the english.. I did like that series. Finished Folly... Oh me, that one is a keeper. I will reread it for sure. The carpentry is written with such detail. You can almost smell the wood with her. The depression felt so real and I almost begin to understand serious depression. All in all Laurie King writes like a demon.. Wow.

The Raj Quartet were very good books. I have read those and Far Pavilions.

I am just starting "West of Kabul East of New York." It has good reviews on the jacket. If it is good to read, the subject matter would make a really meaty discussion.

Carolyn

Trade Winds is fairly long, but not as long as Far Pavilions. The heroine, an avid abolitionist, gets involved in the slave trade in Africa after being sent there to marry and settle down. Her family wants the slave trade ignored as their business concerns profit somewhat from it, although I don't think they actually carried slaves on their ships. Fascinating story--I think M.M. Kaye is an excellent writer of historical novels. Lots of details which helped me better understand the British and India when a colony and privateers during the last of the slave trading. Sue

I loved "Far Pavilions". I think it is one of the best books that I ever read.

Joan P., I think it was in this discussion that you asked about my eyes. Well I no longer have to wear glasses for far vision. My doctor recommended drugstore readers for reading. It is working great so far. Dr said that I could pass and driver.s vision test in the world. I am very pleased with what the cataract surgery has done for me. No more eye pain!

Joan Grimes

JOAN - Congratulations on your "new vision." I had the same corrective surgery done several months ago and am delighted with my far vision and my 4 pairs of Sam's Club "readers." I have them strategically placed all over the house! I especially enjoy being able to watch the butterflies in my neighbor's front yard - two houses away - as well as in my own yard!

WINSUM, it was that daunting prospect that has so far kept me from reading "Far Pavilions". I'm sure I'd love it, but it is so big I hesitate to commit to it. I find myself thinking, "I could read six other books in the time it takes to read that one!"

Then, too, it is entirely possible that I read it back when I was in my teens, and devoured stories like that. The title always seemed vaguely familiar. One of these days I'm going to sit down with a copy of it and read a chapter or two, just to see if I recognize it.

Babi

I picked up The Raj Quartet at a used book store in Cville last year and now they sit idle on the shelf. Some day I hope, soon . . . . .

Ginny, it sounds like there is much in India to steer you away from Mr. Ripley, and let us not forget A Fine Balance which will be coming up for discussion in October.

But in the meantime, you might want to head south for some good homespun literature that one doesn't seem to hear much about these days. Have you read the Ferrol Sams trilogy about the boy who was raised right? Or, another Georgia favorite, Cold Sassy Tree by Olive Ann Burns.

excellent. the sequel finished by her friend after her death from cancer not as good but the original possibly as well loved in a way as mockingbird. I loved it. . .claire

BABI - I'd be happy to loan you my very old copy of Far Pavilions. The binding has dried out, so the pages are in chunks - about 200 to each chunk. When I re-read it every couple of years, I simply open the book, take out a chunk and begin reading. Next time, I select the second chunk and continue reading. Never thought I'd read a book in this way, but it works for me.

LOL, Mahlia! I think I'll pass on the chunky book. Maybe I can pick up a copy in a used book store, and then read it in bits and pieces (but not chunks) over time.

I listened to "Cold Sassy Tree" as an audio book back when my hearing was still good enough. I stuck in into the cassette player in my car and listened to it when I was traveling hither and yon on my job. I remember it as good, and very Southern story.

Babi

Southern?? Lee Harris or Bobby Mason are very southern writers if someone is looking. Lee does full books and Bobby mostly does related short stories. Of course Sharon McCrumb is a delight and very southern in the mountain way.

Oh dear I'm in Ripley Withdrawal. I finished The Telented Mr. Ripley and turned confidently to Ripley Under Ground, YIKES, it's the last one. I need Ripley's Game, I can't find it!!!

Far Pavilions is in the mail so I turned to another Highsmith for my "fix" till I can get my hands on Ripley's Game, and am reading The Faces of January or something like that, which is in the same mode, we're in Greece which I just came from so it's wonderfully evocative, another con man with a wife this time scanning the dock for policemen, and disembarking, I just did that at Crete so I'm happily fixed up again. I may have to read all her books if they're all this good, must be going thru some phase.

The day before yesterday I had a luxurious morning the likes of which I have not had in a long time, thanks to Mr. Ripley. I woke up early, picked him up for an early read, and had a luxurious or so it seemed fine read in my new soft feather bed and mattress, drifting off again until 9 AM!!! Unfortunately could not replicate that this morning (up at 5, no Ripley to pick up) but it was soooo nice, simple pleasures, a good book, so relaxing, something I have not had in a long time.

For some reason I simply cannot read Southern writers with the exception of Clyde Edgerton whom I really love. And of course dear Mary Alice Monroe, who, not being from the South originally, showed us what Southern Hospitality really was when we met with her at Books at the Beach last year. I think we're still on her Book Club Page. In Edit: Yes we're still first and front and center on her Book Clubs page

She has not forgotten us.

Thank you Pedln and I agree on the Wally Lamb article, he is a beautiful human being who has made great changes in the world, and he also has not forgotten us (obviously) and word comes he WILL write a message when we hit our 5,000th book in the Prison Library Project, WHEE! What a guy.

People like Wally Lamb and Mary Alice Monroe and Matthew Pearl become more than writers to us, they're part of our Books Family.

Ginny, there are simply so many Southern writers, are you certain you just can't read them except for two authors?

I love a variety of settings in my reading, and lived long enough in the South to need a dose of it every once in a while. I love to read about places where I've lived and about places where I have never lived.

One of my favorites of the South, only recently discovered, is James Lee Burke. Burke also writes about Montana. His daughter is an author, also, and she, too, writes quite well. My hand surgeon introduced me to Burke--I spent so dang much time in her office reading books waiting to see her.

Kleo

I started to watch "Ripley's Game", the movie, on TV, but found Mr. Ripley so distasteful I turned it off. This was my first and only experience with the gentleman, so perhaps if I'd known him better I'd have felt differently. Or maybe he's an acquired taste.

Babi

I think I'm going thru a phase but you really must not rule out Mr. Ripley until you see Matt Damon's Ripley and read the book. Who played in Ripley's Game? I've not heard of that one, but it's such a delicate thing, I would hate to see it messed up as you say it is.

I don't know what it is, Kleo, but I seem to prefer to read about those far away places with the strange sounding names. They seem to be calling, calling me. hahahaa

Yeah, they call me, too. Still, I like the home-brew at times, also.

Kleo

GINNY, John Malkovich starred in "Ripley's Game". I'm not too familiar with Malkovich, plus not being familiar with Ripley, so I can't say whether he portrayed him well. The movie is available on video if you are interested in seeing it.

Babi

two of my favorite actors. I'd watch anything that featured them

also I like local settings so i can identify with the story in a familiar environment and not be distracted by strangeness. . .claire

IMDB quotes Chris Kinney's review of the Malkovich Ripley. Makes it sound compelling. I think that there has to be a certain suspension of the viewer's/reader's morality to get caught up in admiration for Ripley's "pure evil."

And the kookaburras know it - they're laughing all day long in the old gumtrees.

Strange to look in here again and find discussion about books dealing with India and the Raj etc as one of my F2F groups is considering doing novels set in India for the programme next year and we are currently considering possible titles. Odd.

I have a copy of Far Pavilions somewhere but can't remember ever reading it - so this is probably going to be the right time for that.

Stayed up very late last night reading Graham Greene's Our Man in Havana - What a hoot!

Sorry Ginny but Ripley turns me right off - Could hardly sit through the movie

As an actor John Malkovich is just something else - Does anyone recall seeing him in Of Mice and Men (with Dustin Hoffman I think)- brilliant

Thanks for the link to the Book Clubs page - Photo is great - I could recognise one or two SN'ers from the photo in this header. I feel I'm getting to know everyone a bit better. Wish I had time to spend here regularly but love it when I do come.

Well hey! There's Gum!! Welcome back!

Merry merry king of the bush is he...laugh, kookaburra, laugh, kookaburra, gay your life must be! Sitting here singing before the sun comes up!!

What IS a kookaburra?

John Malkovich as Ripley? can't see that one at all, he's not Ripley to me, he's Jeffrey Dahmer, but then again, maybe I should give it a try, first. But Ripley's Game is the second one before he mellows out. Makes you wonder what's under (not to make a poem) the people you meet actually, I seem to remember liking Ripley's Game the least of the 5.

Folly came and it looks just as dark and with just an edge as Ripley, if not more so, so I can't wait to start it.

I'm not surprised that you all are talking about books on India and such in Australia and we are, too, Gum: we're always by some strange radar on the cutting edge here, always au courant for some reason here in SeniorNet's Books.

Wasn't that awful about Steve Irwin? I hate that.

Right now I'm in Athens with my new Highsmith and just having come from staying there I recognize enough to feel familiar with the milieu. The funny thing, I nearly laughed out loud, is this book has TWO Ripley types, I just realized that this morning, in thinking about the characters, hahahaa and I also just realized why she called the book the Faces of January or something like that, hahaa, and the've just met, it's very clever of her, very. Almost too clever for moi, hahah I JUST realized what she's doing, but I'm enjoying her anyway.

Am also reading bits and pieces of the 14 authors of the sumptuous Pompeii edited by Panetta, which has to be the sine qua non of the new books on Pompeii, and the In Stabiano book which accompanies the new exhibit in Atlanta. The Exhibit is currently traveling around the world, it's small but choice, the book is huge.

hahaa Yesterday I dragged out an old Latin literature book from my college days to look somebody up, and was reading the introduction to one of the writers and it said that XXX (can't remember who now because of the way he was described) was considered to have been one of the finest public speakers of his day, but if the excerpts we have preserved are any indication "we can control our grief." haahaha Just burst out laughing, this right in the middle of this huge boring tome. I had forgotten that....tone.....haahaa Isn't it funny how people's personalities come thru in writing? Love it and it's FALL!! Back to school, learning again, here on SeniorNet and every time you pick up a book, nothing like it in the world!

So I'm in Athens in my armchair traveling but so far we have not gotten to the Plaka. And some of you are going to India next month in A Fine Balance and are reading it now. Where else are we? You can go anywhere in a book~! I'm in Amsterdam, too, in the long suffering Rembrandt and I'm AWOL so I better join that great bunch.

Ginny,, Am interested in where the Pompeii exhibition is and is going to be. I thought I had a note somewhere that it is coming to Birmingham, but when I clicked on Birmingham museum of Art, did not find it.. There is something coming to Mobile,, called a Day in Pompeii in January? is that it?? Help....

Good question! At present there is one currently in Atlanta called In Stabiano, at Emory, one coming on the 23rd at the Fernbank (a mile down the road) called Imperial Rome thru January 3rd and I thought the Pompeii Stories From an Eruption, formerly of the Field Museum, was coming to Birmingham in the winter. I may have misunderstood Joan G, so there's yet ANOTHER ONE? In Mobile? Do you have the URL for that one?

??

I tell you what the ancients are HOT HOT HOT!

I'll go look up Pompeii Stories from an Eruption, and see where it's going, it's been in Europe or so I thought.

"Pompeii: Stories from an Eruption" is coming to Birmingham. The one coming to Mobile is a different one.

The Birmingham museum is not presently publicizing it on their Website. We are having a big print fair this weekend and have lots of things coming before the "Pompeii: Stories from an Eruption". However if you search in Google you will find that is the one coming to Birmingham. It is not coming here until next Fall.

Joan Grimes

Super, thank you Joan G, it's a whopper, appreciate that update! It's got audio with it and is one of the best I've ever seen.

The one coming to Atlanta's Fernbank Museum , the Imperial Rome, has 50 less artifacts than the Field Museum's (that's how I'm going to refer to it before it gets to Birmingham) huge thing, so it's also a whopper.

I'm glad to get the time of year straight too. So that makes 4 major exhibits about Rome and the Pompeiians currently travelling the US and the world!

I am traveling to Italy in March of next year and will be going to Herculaneum, Pompeii and many other places too. I am excited about it.

Joan Grimes

you will absolutely love it, Joan. I had a driver this last time and on the way back to Naples he said Pompeii is like Disney World, always something new! And so it is!

You will LOVE it! And it will be hot in March.

Ginny, do you have photos???

Do I have photos? From this last trip? About 1100. hahaaa

May we have show and tell????

hahaha not here, but I appreciate the thought!!!

A kookabura is an Australian kingfisher. They're very cute. Look up a picture of one some time, Ginny.

Kleo

My son publishes books thru his small press lovinghealing.com.

If you want to hear him interview a book reviewer and be interviewed him self go to http://authorsaccess.com/

There are 4 podcasts of 5 minutes each.

~Marj

Naturally, I had to pause and go take a look at a Kookaburra, KLEO. I don't know if I would call him 'cute'; I think he looks funny. I also learned the kookaburra call sounds like a loud laugh, and he is known as the Australian laughing jackass. I have a feeling I must have heard that call in some of the movies I've seen set in Australia, since I can so easily imagine just what it sounds like.

Babi

Ah, Babi, kingfishers are adorable birds. Maybe you have to see them in person, although I've never seen the kookaburra in person, whenever I go birding and we see a kingfisher, everyone agrees they are totally cute birds.

Kleo

The American kingfisher and the Australian kookaburra look totally different from what I see on the net.

http://www.giftlog.com/pictures/kookaburra_picture.htm

http://data.acnatsci.org/vireo/kingfishers/kingfishers.html

The brilliant blue American Kingfisher is gorgeous! I saw one diving when visiting Yellowstone National Park many years ago, and have never forgotten the sight.

Babi

Well, they're different birds, Bubble, but they both look like kingfishers. And, sure two different birds don't look alike, but an American Kingfisher and an Australian Kingfisher look more related to each other than either looks related to the American Robin. And an American Crow and a Siberian Crow look different from each other, also, but they both look more like each other than either looks like the Kingfisher.

By totally different, do you mean you would not, using the examples Darwin has set thus far classify them as in any way related? If that is the case you might not be looking at a kookaburra and a kingfisher, but something else.

Go Darwinian and describe what attributes the Kingfisher has, then see whether these two birds share any of these Kingfisher attributes, and have more of them than attributes of any other genius.

They look far more alike than a pigeon and an eagle.

Kleo

Oh, Babi, that sounds marvelous. The blue ones are spectacular in their coloration.

Kleo

From Wikipedia on Kingfishers: "There are about 90 species of kingfisher. All have large heads, long, sharp, pointed bills, short legs, and stubby tails. They are found throughout the world."

The kookaburras I've seen fit this description, plus they usually have, like the American species I've seen, a horizontal strip on their head or neck. But the kookaburras and kingfishers (as both are kingfishers) have large heads, bills rather long in proportion to their head and body size, pointed bills, short legs, and short tails on the kookaburra, usually stubby tails on American kingfishers.

Kleo

But don't we love the flash of brilliant color, over the more prosaic brown, white, black, gray ensemble? Not fair, perhaps, but what catches the eye...catches the eye! Can't be helped.

:>) Babi

Ginny,

I have been to Pompeii not to Herculaneum. I am looking forward to going there, also to Capri and several other places that I have not been before. Also think the group that I am going with will be a congenial group. Several people from the museum are going on the trip.

Joan Grimes

You will love it. I have been to Pompeii 7 times and I have seen something new and different every time. Herculaneum has also changed and is wonderful. Pompeii is a miracle it really is. Too bad the wonderful cafeteria is closed in March, it's a delight, but I think the bookstore is open.

Sounds like a great congenial trip to me!

Oplontis is the one which blew me away this time, never saw anything like it in my life, any chance you'll see it?

Are you getting to go to Rome?

GINNY - if you're invited to attend the Book Fair in Egypt next year don't be surprised. Before he departed for Cairo this morning, my husband, Mohamed, was reading through some of the posts in this discussion and decided that this would be an excellent model for a forum he's been thinking about. The core participants in Egypt would probably be retired (or soon to be) faculty from his university, who love to read about international topics. While all the angst in the Middle East and Central Asia continues, Mohamed has been trying to devise projects which will help to alleviate some of the concern among his colleagues, neighbors, former students, friends, etc. He is familiar with SN through my own participation and enjoys browsing through the various discussions. But his favorite is BOOKS!

Mohamed was also prompted to give this project some deeper thought when we learned recently about the passing of Naguib Mahfouz, who for many decades had been a favorite among the Egyptians and international audiences.

Oh, those kookaburra pictures are so sweet. And the kingfisher colors are amazing.

We used to sing a song about the kookaburra as a round in Girl Scouts - something like this:

"Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree
Merry merry king of the bush is he
Laugh, Kookaburra, laugh, Kookaburra,
Sing that song for me."

Oh, I just found a version of it on the web:

http://www.ausinternet.com/ettamogah/kookaburrasong.htm

Yes Ginny, it's me - just lurking about the place now and then. As you say it was sad about Steve Irwin - He was a lovable larrikin. I was glad when his family protected his privacy & theirs by refusing a State Funeral for him - it would have been inappropriate.

Sadly yesterday we lost another Aussie icon - racing driver Peter Brock died instantly during a race when he hit a tree on the side of the road - it was a gumtree of course.

As for Kookaburras - I knew Kleo would have the right information - Kooka is one of the kingfisher family. He doesn't have the same colourful plumage as his cousins, the kingfishers do,though he does show a flash of brilliant kingfisher blue on the wing. Kookas have a very human sounding (and loud) laughing song - it starts as a soft rumbling chuckle deep in the throat and swells to a full blooded loud belly laugh. Wonderful to hear - so catching that it makes one want to laugh as well. At present we have a pair nesting in very tall eucalypt (gumtree) nearby. Soon the offspring will be perching on my fences, clotheslines etc hoping for a free feed as they learn to fend for themselves.The young are often a very soft grey/beige colour - pretty

Bubble thanks for the link - the photos appear to be of juvenile birds. Mature birds are really squat and heavier looking in the body.

Kleo - I'm interested in your Beat Generation reading, Kerouac et al- I know you listed a number of these authors some time back but I can't find the post. If its not too tedious for you could you name them again especially those you regard as the best. Thanks

We went to Pompeii this spring in late March, but this was not a warm year, so it was truly absolutely cold.. Our feet turned into icicles.. But we loved it and were heartbroken to discover that the true treasures were in the Naples Museum. Soooo we want to go back and go to Naples and again Pompeei and Herculaneum.. Did not like Capri, but then it was cold and rainy for the two days we were there. I am sure a lot nicer when it is warm.

I am so glad to know what a Kookaburra is. As a girl scout I loved the song, and forever envisioned this furry little koala-type creature sitting in the bush, with a crown on his head. So happy, in my 7th decade to finally learn the truth.

Stephanie, I visited Capri during the summer of '89. Very pleasant, though lots of walking. It would not be fun in the rain. The only thing I didn't like was the boatmen taking advantage of me and the other woman in the small boat with me, pressuring us for a larger tip.

Join us at a new Curious Minds starting September 16 -- A Medical Potpourri of New Trends, New Treatments, and New Issues in the Doctor's Bag. Come tell us your ideas about what's going on with health care in the new millenium. What's new? What's changing?

Oh, good grief, Pedln--a koala? As soon as Gumtree posted the song I realized I sang it as a child thinking of a koala sitting in the tree, then I got to your post!!!!! (I also imagined that a gumtree looked like an African Acacia on the great savanna.) It's nice to know I'm not alone.

Gumtree, we're reading authors of the Lost Generation and are probably going to start working on Beat Generation authors, next. We read later authors, also, writers of the 50s and 60s who were heavily influenced by Lost Generation writers. Here's a list of what we read so far, our current read is the Virginia Woolf, and we're reading Native Son, maybe, next:

The Sun Also Rises by Ernest Hemingway
All Quiet On The Western Front by Erich Marie Remarque
Tender Is The Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald
Ecclesiasts, Poetry Of T.S. Elliot, Ezra Pound, E.E.Cummings, William Carlos Williams
Testament Of Youth by Vera Brittain
Usa Trilogy: The 42nd Parallel by John Dos Passos
Quicksand and Passing by Nella Larsen
The Good Soldier by Ford Maddox Ford
The Autobiography Of Alice B. Toklas by Gertrude Stein
Everybody Was So Young: Gerald And Sara Murphy-A Lost Generation Love Story by Amanda Vaill with Gerald and Sara Murphy
Lost Horizon by James Hilton
The Sound And The Fury by William Faulkner
Main Street by Sinclair Lewis
Usa Trillogy: 1919 by John Dos Passos
Death Of A Man by Kaye Boyle Harlem Renaissance Poetry, by Langston Hughes, Others
For Whom The Bell Tolls by Ernest Hemingway
Character: A Novel of Father and Son by Ferdinand Bordewijk
The Portable Dorothy Parker by Dorothy Parker
Brave New World by Aldous Huxley
The Magnificient Ambersons by Booth Tarkington
Animal Farm by George Orwell
Sister Carrie by Theodore Dreiser
The Good Soldier Svejk by Jaroslav Hasek
A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway
Sylvia Beach and the Lost Generation by Noel Riley Fitch
Death Comes For the Archbishop by Willa Cather
J. B. by and The Book of Job from the Bible
Dr. Zhivago by Boris Pasternak
The Old Man and the Sea by Ernest Hemingway
The Travels of Jaimie McPheeters by Robert Lewis Taylor
The Tales of the South Pacific by James Michener
The Cain Mutiny by Herman Wouk
The Stranger and The Myth of Sisyphus both by Albert Camus, All the King's Men by Robert Penn Warren
Catch-22 by Joseph Heller
Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf

Kleo

Who is WE and how long have you all been at it? Claire

Claire,

We just started our fourth year of reading together. We started at the Oprah boards (and continue there) when Oprah reopened her book club with John Steinbeck's East of Eden. Another women there commented how she had not read much of the authors of the Lost Generation, and wasn't particularly fond of them, I agreed, and we were off and running.

I find it to be an amazing experience reading a connected group of authors over the years with similar themes. We generally connect all of our books the theme of being an outsider in culture, being disenfranchised from mainstream culture. We add new members, lose members, etc. We're a small group and that's fine, because it's about the books. It's been interesting to add the Bible and poetry and short stories and essays and biographies, also.

Kleo

I found the site of thte book clubs and read the terms of service. this is one of those places that owns anything you send them.They ask specifically that you NOT send anything creative to them for this preason. Interesting huh. anyhow I didn't sign up for that reason. The other being that I'm swampted right now with things to read and can talk about them here if so inclined.

it's an amazing list though and reading in connection with a theme is a nice slant. . .Claire

Kleo, what an interesting list. Thank you!
I'm read a lot of those authors, and many of the books, and never thought about any "generation" at all.
I just finished Wouk's War and Remembrance, very serious, very sad.
I hadn't read his books in years, but picked it up at a used book sale. A very long and wonderful novel.

MAHLIA, that's a grand concept Mohamed has for an Egyptian book gathering. I hope he finds support for among his colleagues.

I appears I have never been a fan of either the Lost or the Beat generation writiers. I have read only five of the books on that list, and none of them were great favorites with me. To each his own (she said,tritely.).

Claire, no Oprah is not one of the sites that owns everything you post. In fact, it's the opposite, you can ONLY post what you own, your own creative work, with very limited posting of quotes from literary works and the like--and it's ruthlessly enforced. Post one line too many and BAMM! your post is gone.

Mippy, I was surprised at how good Wouk's The Caine Mutiny was. I must reread War and Remembrance.

BaBi, I didn't like either Lost or Beat Generation authors before this book club. I was a bit leery about reading Hemingway and Fitzgerald because, other than H's short stories and The Old Man and the Sea, I pretty much loathed both of them and would not have read one of their books if paid to do so.

However, looking at them from the viewpoint of this generation displaced by War, raised to live in a world created by their fathers, then denied that world, it gave me a deep appreciation for the literary movement, like nothing I've ever before experienced in reading. Sometimes I still wish we had picked a better generation, late 19th century British and French authors, for example, and I would be now a very sophisticated reader of important literary classics. However, these authors I listed had a lasting impact on literature that is felt today, and every time I read a modern piece of fiction I see their influence, and ever time I read an older work, I see the influences on them.

It's been an amazing journey.

Kleo

About a year ago i saw the book and decided i should read it since it is kind of a classic. I was BORED to death, never finished it, how did your group do w/ it?

One of those that pleasantly surprised me was Main Street. I found it is a bunch of books that came from my Mother's and was amazed at how "modern" his thinking was about women. I really enjoyed that one.

I thought the Caine Mutiny was a better book than War and Remembrance........jean

the following under terms etc.

" we must ask that you not send us any original creative ideas, suggestions or materials. If, despite our request, you send us any creative idea, suggestion or material ("Submission"), it shall become our property"

I didn't expect such riches - just a few authors' names rattled off - but you present me with a comprehensive listing no less. I do really appreciate you taking the time and trouble - thanks.

It happens that I've read many but by no means all of them - maybe 60% or so - but there are some I've not heard of: Noel Riley Fitch for one - and who is Bordewijk? Amanda Vaill, Nella Larsen are strangers to me. I guess no-one can read everything - Will see what my library can come up with.

Clever of you and your group to include Biblical stories - they are almost always overlooked as literature and yet some are so potent in meaning and relevance today.

Two of my F2F groups always run with a theme - I mentioned here a few days ago that one is considering novels set in and about India for next year. We hope to select a range encompassing 20th Century. We all read the set titles as well as some freelance reading around the theme - it seems to make for a more rounded and expansive discussion.

Some time back we spent about 3 years in 19th century England and Europe and although the books we read are generally regarded as classics I wouldn't say reading them turned me into a very "sophisticated reader of important literary classics' But it is true that after such an immersion one becomes more aware of the masters' innovations and lasting influences.

Thanks again Kleo, you've given me much to ponder.

Before I go, I must just say that this particular 'gumtree' bears no resemblance to an African Acacia whatsoever! How strange too, that both you and Pedln confused the two Aussie icons - the Kooka and the Koala - Even odder still is that you know the little Kooka song. We had it at school of course but I had no idea it had crossed the Pacific!

kookaburra sits on the old gum treeeee meerry merry king of the woods is heeee laugh kookaburra laugh kooka bur how gay your life must be.

I've read a bunch of those books as booth Tarkington was a childhood favorite with Penrod and Penrod and Sam. but found no way to digest the bible although I tried.

is it part of the theme of isolation in a strange world? seems to me that it brought people together and in fact you'd find copies in the night tand drawer of motels and hotels across the usa. don't know if they still do that though, a form of prostelitizing that seemed to work here. . .making us a christian nation? well almost lately. . .whew.

we call it the eucalyptus. it was brought here by UCLA as part of an agricultural study. Don't know when but drover through the experimental grove near Morrow Bay in central CA and now it's all over southern CA where I grew up. it' impossible for anything else to grow under it because of the oil in the leaves that drop. . . that is if that's the tree and if I spelled it correctly.

They are all over Central California as well. I heard that they were experimental around the 1950's as timber but the trunks naturally twist so there is no straight grain which lumber requires.

GINNY - If you're still looking for some really good mysteries, how about the Lindsey Davis series with her Roman detective, Marcus Didius Falco, set in the time of Vespasian?? Really, really good and fit in with Latin! Her research is reputed to be excellent but it's the characters that are so wonderful. The first book is The Silver Pigs but they can stand alone.

CONGRATULATIONS, KLEO. Your foray into the Lost and Beat generations was obviously a very positive experience for you. Can't beat that.

WINSUM, I hope your attempt to read the Bible was in a modern translation. In the older versions, like the original King James, the language is so archaic as to make it extremely difficult to understand. And there were some bobbles in translation as well, according to the newer and more expert translations. I find the Bible a rich source of literature, quite apart from its religious significance.

JOAN ROBERTS, I am a fan of Lindsey Davis' books. Marcus Didius Falco is great fun as well being historically sound, and good stories. You can read the books out of sequence, but I enjoyed reading them in sequence for the on-going story of his personal life and relationship with the spirited girlfriend/cum/senator's daughter, Helena Justica.

Babi

Babi

looking for something easy and fun - i just read my first Nancy Martin book "Some Like it Lethal" one of the Blackbird sister series, because she was talked about on the "mystery" discussion. You may like it as well as i did since the locale is the PHiladelphia area - Center City, Main Line, Bucks County........jean

BaBi:-But the language in the King James version is so-o-o beautiful!!

Robby

I am with Robbie.. The language in the King James is wonderful. Rolls off the tongue. The Psalms are like music. Some of the stories are quite wonderful as well.. But I suspect that all translations are slanted to a point of view. Always did.. Very anti female in there. But the times were anti female, regarding them as property.

I do love the language of the King James Bible. When language is made more accessible, easier, different from the original words, there is a certain unique beauty that disappears.

Of course, if I were reading King James for the first time, I would love to have an easier translation. Easy translations have a place in the world too. The "real thing" can choke a body at times. When reading translated Literature, I always want the easiest translation in the world.

Since the King James is the version I was raised on, it will always sound "right" to me. If I were Catholic, I would probably prefer the mass in Latin. It doesn't seem appropriate to have God speak in contenporary English.

I do like the sound of the Latin mass, but I also like it in English or Polish. Most Catholics today are quite used to the sound of mass in English, as it came about in my childhood.

I don't care for the King James as much as the Catholic Bibles I was raised on, however, language changes, every translator thinks theirs is the best, otherwise they would not have bothered.

Kleo

I like some of the newer translations. I like the Living Bible for every day use. Children today hardly understand the King James Version. Our language is evolving so quickly and text messaging has a lot to do with that I think plus the internet language we all use at times.

Carolyn

No argument there, Robby. The old language is often very beautiful. If I'm saying the 23rd Psalm, for example, I can only speak the old King James version. However, for somebody like Winsum who is trying to make sense out of what she's reading, there's nothing like a modern translation. My favorite is the NIV (New International Version). The scholarship on that one is most impressive. And to pursue a particular theme or subject thru' the Bible, you can't do better than use the Thompson Chain Reference.

Babi

Aaarrghhhhh! It's time, me hearties, to sign up for the discussion of The Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty! This book is Captain Bligh's own written account of what happened on the mutinous voyage and afterward when he and some of his crew were set adrift in shark-infested waters.

The discussion begins officially on November 1. There's plenty of grog, salt pork, and duff aboard ship waiting for you, so sign up here:

patwest, "---Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty, The ~ William Bligh ~ Proposed for Nov. 1st" #, 11 Sep 2006 2:26 pm

Marni

A book arrived today that I had pre-ordered from Amazon a while ago. It is "The Thirteenth Tale" by Diane Setterfield. It is the story of two women -- Margaret Lea, a young woman who works in her father's antique book store, and Vida Winter, an author (she prefers to be called a story teller) who is England's best known and best loved author. Ms. Winter is not well, is approaching the end of her life, and finally wants to truthfully tell her own story. She hires Margaret to do this, while living at her home and interviewing her.

My father fell yesterday, broke his hip and had to have surgery today. So I spent about three hours in the waiting room with my new book. I've read about 75 pages and it really is a good book. The first several pages are all about Margaret's love of books and reading and you feel as though you are right there with her in the old book store.

The publisher promises "A compelling emotional mystery in the timeless vein of Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca, about family secrets and the magic of books and storytelling."

Here is a link to Barnes and Noble that has several more links with info about the author and the book:

Barnes and Noble Recommends

So far it's a very good read.

being incapacited at our age is dangerous. hope he does well. . .claire

Claire,

Thank you for asking.....It is a long, long story that I won't go into now other than to say he suffered a brain injury in 2003 at the age of 82. This past year he has been in an Alzheimer's care facility and has a friend, Helen, who he thinks is my Mom (she passed away 2 years ago). He fell when helping Helen out of her wheelchair (which he is not supposed to do...but forgets!).

He is in good physical shape and is doing well today after surgery.

I think someday I will write a book about our last three years! I've used humor to get through things but my Dad is quite a man!

Carol

I think we all have a book in us or two or three. humor helps doesn't it. . .Claire

Carol -- when someone close has Alzheimer's, it is a challenge. And looking at the humorus times does help with the serious, tragic times.

Pat,

It is certainly a challenge, but in the long run I think it will make me a much better and more patient person. Dad has a form of dementia because of the brain injury. He is one of the few in the unit that can carry on a conversation with you. He does have memory problems, but mainly it is his judgment that has gone so he is not safe by himself. For this reason, he has to be in a locked unit so that he cannot leave. He is quite content there, which is a blessing. When we had him at home, as a retired military officer, he was the boss!

It is so strange to watch and get to know all of the people with Alzheimer's. It affects each of them in a different way. I hope that someday the medical field can find a way to stop this disease.

Carol

there is a book . . .about all those different persons and how they were and how they are with a gentle humerous touch maybe? and from the viewpoint of YOUR FATHER???

It seems like it's just hanging there in the air waiting???

I have a couple like that also but not the urge to follow through.

claire

I'm not sure where to post this, but if there is a place on seniornet and this isn't it, perhaps someone here will let me know:

I don't know how many of you have read Honore Balzac, but if you like Dickens or Austen or Trollope you would probably love him. His collected works of about 100 pieces, mostly novels but also some shorter pieces, is called "The Human Comedy". Not all the stories are related, but characters show up from time to time in the various novels. They always have strong characters and emphasize human interactions and feelings. I own an old set of "The Human Comedy", an it is 35 volumes.

I just joined a yahoo group that is discussing slowly reading "The Human Comedy". So far there are four of us interested, and I'm drumming up support for additional interest. I belong to a similar group for Anthony Trollope, and it is great fun. Reading is perhaps 50 pages a week, which go fast with Balzac or Trollope. If anyone is intersted, please join the yahoo group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/balzac/

and post a message that you are interested in reading "The Human Comedy". Looking forward to seeing some of you there, and tell anyone else who might be interested!

Reader Woman...SeniorNet's Great Books is winding up a six month discussion of Don Quixote this week and considering our next venture. A poster has recently considered Balzac's Human Comedy! A real coincidence, isn't it? Please do drop in and second the nomination! You can find us here -
Great Books Upcoming Will be looking for you...and bring your friends too! Everyone is welcome!

would it be considered A GRET BOOK. our group here has a discussion especially for THE STORY OF CIVILIZATION by the Durants. Why not start on on THE HUMAN COMEDY and select a book that Yahoo grup isnt doing. I'm completely overwhelmed right now with things to read. have three going at the same timme and am not interested in classics although I find Dickens wonderfully written and enjoyed David Copperfield and others in my youth. Now I'm into mysteries and the like . . .especially the legal ones and the thrillers which move faster and don['t require so much eye strain. . . that's a problem with small type. . . .my current dickens book is almost unreadable for me because of that.

I'll bet there are people here though that would enjoy your group very much. . .claire

Hats,

Orangutans and Gorillas are about as different as can be, although some scientists argue otherwise--and can't be thoroughly dismissed. Most taxonomists seem to think that orangutans branched off and started going their own way long before gorillas headed their own way.

Branching off, means they left the main line of heritage. This is like leaving home when you are 5-years-old and growing up less versed in your own immediate family's culture than would be the case if you lived at home until you are 18.

Orangutans were adopted out as infants, gorillas as 5-year-old and chimpanzees left the house that eventually wound up as humans when they were about 15. These are just guesses, as I don't really know the exact ages or relationships between ages, except that orangutans are ancient divergers.

Kleo

KLEO, you are an astonishing source of interesting bits of information. I bet you're good at Trivial Pursuit, too.

Babi

Or Jeopardy!

Poe's Murders in the Rue Morgue were closed inadvertanly this afternoon - but open now to continue discussion of the first story in the book...

Kleo thank you for the "guesses. At least, I have more knowledge.

There are huge categories I don't do well in, but yes, I'm a virtual storehouse of useless information, well, most of it is actually fun. My favorite reading in nonfiction is scientific papers.

Kleo

I have a half-dozen old Time Magazines I have saved for reference, because they explain some newer scientific breakthrough in language I can sorta understand. I am at least able to grasp the overall picture and significance, and be thrilled by it. Original scientific papers from the brains themselves would be far too technical for my understanding. My scientific education was marginal, to say the least.

Babi

and they are meant for public consumption. . . not written in scientificese. after all math is the language of science and it really is another language, just like html only harder. its a language of law which can be understood as an absolute.

I've been exploring quantum mechanics and there are really easy sites for us beginners but I wanted to know why it's the basis of all our electronic goodies and I'm still pretty confused. claire

I don't know, Claire, that quantum mechanics is currently applicable to all our electronic goodies other than explaining some semiconductor theory with it. Scientists hope that the next hugest breakthrough in computer speeds will come through applications of quantum theory, but it seems to be a long way off, and might be beat by the tinies and biologicals. I really don't think that quantum mechanics is the basis for much in electronic goodies, if anything outside of medical and imaging equipment--I might be wrong.

Kleo

we could have a discussion on it I"ll bet.

claire

I'd love to discuss Quantum Mechanics, Claire. There is an inactive physics board--maybe we could do it over there or troll there for interested parties?

Math, Physics, Chemistry Board

Kleo

You all should look into a magazine called.. New Scientist..It is published in the UK..LOTS of very interesting articles, and tid-bits of info..And it certainly fits the bill for advanced ideas of all sorts, in a manner both informative, and "understandable "They have a web-site...Try it you'll like it.....

I was just there looking for underground water on mars etc. here

http://www.newscientist.com/home.ns and Eistein says whatever it takes to be a genius but I haven't read that one yet. it's a good place. in fact I can't read the whole article unless I PAY them. to bad. it's a nice magazine. claire

It was a beautiful fall day here, so we got down to the "city" and spent some time, of course, at Barnes and Noble. This seemed to be a day for people buying books. There was quite a line at the checkout desk and they were calling for more cashiers. A couple of women may have either been on a reading frenzy or perhaps were buying books as gifts as one left with three large B&N shopping bags. Other men and women standing waiting in line with me had 3-4 books each in hand.

Maybe when fall comes people realize that it's time to get stocked up again and with rains again predicted for the weekend, they're ready for staying in and reading.

I was in search of a Charles Goren book for beginners on contract bridge and had no luck locating it until a clerk finally pried herself away from her computer there in the middle of the store Information Center (nobody else was at the Information Center except me, so I'm not sure what she was so engrossed in), but she did find it for me, so I left a pleased customer, too.

jane

Book Bytes ~ Mid-Month Reviews has just been emailed to 495 interested readers.

If you are interested in subscribing, -- email BookBytes@hq.seniornet.org and put Subscribe in the subject line.

KLEO: says " I'm a virtual storehouse of useless information, well, most of it is actually fun".

My husband used to tell me I was a squirrel collecting useless information. In fact, if it was useless (but fun), I would probably know it. I only forget boring things, like paying the bills.

Our older son was involved the both high school and college quiz bowls and his specialty was always math and science. He does remember the darndest things about both.. He loved it.

AH the Barnes and Noble Trip!! It's become a staple of my life, too, I even love the smell!

But right now I'm dragging bodies through the night on my French Estate with Thomas Ripley in the second book Ripley Under Ground. This is the darkest book of the series, and quite interesting, the bodies no more than a bag of carrots to Tom, it's quite interesting, the mind of the psychopath.

I bought a new book I can't wait to get into, tho. You've heard the expression East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet? Well I Feel Earthquakes More Often Than They Happen by Amy Wilentz, is a new book the NY Times has been carrying on about, "coming to California in the Age of Schwarzenegger."

A New YAWKER moves to and takes on CA, "remarkable, funny and vivid trip. She has a sharp e ye, a cool wit, a lyrical tone ...and a grasp of the place's strangeness and allure that makes the book entirely unforgettable."

And Jane Smiley said, "A compellingly readable book, and I want another installment."

IS there a difference, Dude, in the culture of the NE and California? A state so large it takes up half the west coast? I can't wait to read HER impressions.

I've also just gotten into Bookmarked to Die by Jo Dereske, apparently Carolyn Hart says it's an "enchanting mystery series," I do like the way the first few chapters read, literate and not at all that condescending puns and parody on words. I am tired of picking up a book and finding put upon cleaning ladies making puns, sorry

I also have just started Number Our Days by Barbara Myerhoff. "A Triumph of continuity and Culture Among Jewish Old People in an Urban Ghetto."

"An often funny, always deeply moving narrative of human dignity and courage."

I think Jonathan recommended this one. I seem to be veering toward non fiction here lately. I think it's easier to get into, less disappointing and easier to put down.

What are you reading as fall is here? Did you see the great new topic of Curious Minds? Modern Medicine? It's not your mother's medicine any more, are we sorry? Don't miss that one!

Ginny ~ I'm reading about Thomas Ripley, also. Nice and devious, isn't he?

The author is Patricia Highsmith.

... just looked to be sure which one, I'm also in the middle of Ripley Under Ground
and just finished The Talented Mr. Ripley, which was also an outstanding movie, starring Matt Damon.
Thanks for suggesting this author, Ginny!

Oh good Mippy, let's discuss it along with everything else here, how far are you in the Under Ground? I had the WORST time trying to figure out which was the second book. Have you read the first one yet? In Edit, I see you have! It's much better than the movie. I think the second one, the one we're reading now, is the worst of the 5.

Doesn't she grab you tho? You are almost...well where ARE you in the book? This one is weak, let's discuss why as we talk other books too.

here's some more on Patricia Highsmith for those who don't know her.

"In a cruel twist of irony, Texas-born Patricia Highsmith (1921-1995) is being recognized only after her death for her inestimable genius in her native land. With the savage humor of Waugh and the macabre sensibility of Poe, she brought a distinctly contemporary acuteness to her prolific body of noir fiction.

Thirty years before David Lynch's Blue Velvet, Highsmith's novels and stories shattered the cool veneer of idyllic American suburbia. Living in self-imposed exile in Switzerland and France for most of her life, Highsmith, from this far-off vantage point, felt the freedom to express her uniquely haunting literary imagination. "

She's not for everybody, as we've noted, tho.

I also have her "new" Nothing That Meets the Eye: The Uncollected Stories of Patricia Highsmith

A brilliant collection of 28 short stories, a great majority of which have never been seen published in book form.

Here's the order of the Ripley books: (she died on my birthday maybe that's why I'm so taken with her):

Novels

Strangers on a Train (1950)

The Price of Salt (as Claire Morgan) (1953)

The Blunderer (1954)

The Talented Mr. Ripley (1955)

Deep Water (1957)

Miranda The Panda Is On The Veranda (with Doris Sanders) (1958)

A Game for the Living (1958)

This Sweet Sickness (1960)

The Two Faces of January (1961)

The Cry of the Owl (1962)

The Glass Cell (1964)

A Suspension of Mercy (1965)

Those Who Walk Away (1967)

The Tremor of Forgery (1969)

Ripley Under Ground (1970)

A Dog's Ransom (1972)

Ripley's Game (1974)

Edith's Diary (1977)

The Boy Who Followed Ripley (1980)

People Who Knock on the Door (1983)

Found in the Street (1987)

Ripley Under Water (1991)

Small g: A summer idyll (1995)

Story collections: a long list also