HERE WE ARE! Welcome to all who come. We have three interesting links to articles in the heading, as well as one to a discussion on Grief led by JANE, here on SN.

I'd like to start, tho', with an excerpt from a book that got me started thinking about pain as a subject for Curious Minds. This is taken from White Night, by Jim Butcher.

“…. growing up is all about getting hurt. And then getting over it. You hurt. You recover. You move on. Odds are pretty good you’re just going to get hurt again. But each time, you learn something.

Each time, you come out of it a little stronger, and at some point you realize that there are more flavors of pain than coffee. There’s the little empty pain of leaving something behind---graduating, taking the next step forward, walking out of something familiar and safe into the unknown. There’s the big, whirling pain of life upending all of your plans and expectations. There’s the sharp little pains of failure, and the more obscure aches of successes that didn’t give you what you thought they would. There are the vicious, stabbing pains of hopes being torn up. The sweet little pains of finding others, giving them your love, and taking joy in their life as they grow and learn. There’s the steady pain of empathy that you shrug off so you can stand beside a wounded friend and help them bear their burdens. And if you’re very, very lucky, there are a very few blazing hot little pains you feel when you realize that you are standing in a moment of utter perfection, an instant of triumph, or happiness, or mirth which at the same time cannot possibly last - and yet will remain with you for life.

Everyone is down on pain, because they forget something important about it: Pain is for the living. Only the dead don’t feel it., Pain is a part of life. Sometimes it’s a big part, and sometimes it isn’t, but either way, it’s part of the big puzzle, the deep music, the great game. Pain does two things: It teaches you, tells you that you’re alive. Then it passes away and leaves you changed. It leaves you wiser sometimes. Sometimes it leaves you stronger. Either way, pain leaves its mark, and everything important that will ever happen to you in life is going to involve it in one degree or another. Adding pain to [an image isn’t] a process of imagining horrors, fantasizing violence, speculating upon suffering. It [is] no different from an artist mixing in new color, adding emphasis and depth to the image that, while bright, was not true to itself or to life. “

Butcher then speaks of the small irritations and pains…the constant need to maintain, repair or replace one’s possessions, taxes and bill, jobs that leave you daily with an aching back, or feet, or head. The times when loneliness is almost unbearable. The aches and pains of growing older. The unruly neighbors, nitwit media ‘personalities’, politicians who “seemed to fall on a spectrum somewhere between the extremes of ‘crook’ and ‘moron’.

“You know. Life”

"More flavors of pain than coffee". And that's what we want to talk about.

Babi

Interesting ideas, Babi. It should be a good discussion - I'll be here.

I like the comment that Pain teaches you and tells you that you're still alive.

I could do without so many constant reminders that I am still alive!

Carolyn

You definitely have a point, Carolyn!

Carolyn, I could do without so many constant reminders that I am still alive also .

Yes, this should be an interesting discussion. Interesting, in part, because when I read what the topic was, I thought only of physical pain. But as the opening message points out, there are lots of other kinds of pain.

And, for me, I think there is a close link between pain and fear. My house was broken into on Monday. While I have not had the proverbial feeling of being "violated" (probably because they didn't get very much), I do have fear about them coming back. But that feeling of "being violated" is definitely a kind of pain, and if what has been taken is important to you, there's pain in the loss. (They mostly just got costume jewelry, and it had been so long since I wore it, I don't even know what they got!) They did get my old wedding ring set, but since I've been divorced about 25 years, there's not a lot of pain there!

Babi- such an interesting topic!

I've been fortunate to not having experienced much (physical) pain in my life but am married to a dear man who has been through so much. So, I've had the experience of seeing a loved one suffer ups and downs, trying like the dickens to find help but to avoid mind-numbing drugs that doctors like to dispense.

Yup, we'll find a lot to discuss here. Thanks for leading.

P.S. Tex - so sorry to hear about your break-in. We had a similar happening nearly 30 years ago and, also like you, not much of value was taken but there were some inexpensive costume jewelry type things that did have sentimental value. I still kinda miss some of them to this day but am grateful that nothing worse happened. It turned out it was a next door neighbor, hippy type, that broke in. What a shock! Any idea who your uninvited "guest" was? Hope you can do some things to help you be more secure.

I can't remember a day without pain.......and I don't mean physical!

Texas, sorry to hear about your break-in. I've always heard the mental pain from such a thing is substantial.

Soultwin, I'm sorry - your pains sound terribly distressing.

TEXAS SONGBIRD: I also experienced having my house broken into. Twice actually. The last time was over 20 years ago and the two times were 15 years apart. I haven't thought about either time for years and years but you did remind me of how violated I felt at the time.

Good to see all of you! So far we have already touched on the downside of growing old (unggh), the eroding pain of not feeling safe (one I hadn't thought of!), and the pain of having to watch a loved one's pain. Many times when my children were young, I felt it would be much easier to handle a pain in my own body than to see them suffer it in theirs.

My house was broken into, while I was there and sound asleep. I didn't realize it until the next morning, when I walked into my living room and found my jewelry box (nothing of great value) sitting open on the floor. You can imagine how chilling it was to realize that box had been in the room where I sleep the night before!

SOULTRAIN, your statement, that you can't remember a day without pain, and not physical pain...is troubling. Do you feel you can tell us more about that? One always associates 'chronic' pain with a physical condition. Of course, the loss of a loved one is something that never entirely goes away, but it eases with time. Daily, non-physical pain is hard to grasp, and you have my deepest sympathy.

Babi

What an interesting topic, Pedl'n and I think well summarized with your quote from "White Night". I had never considered calling all those life circumstances pain. I take that back. The loss of a child left me feeling as though someone had cut off my arms and left me to bleed to death. Thank goodness, with time, we can get past that kind of pain but we never forget. Hopefully, we learn how strong we are and maybe become more sympathetic to others pain, whatever kind they have.

I am not sure about pain leaving me wiser sometimes as four weeks ago, I thought that I was feeling so good that I could get down and dirty in my garden. Big mistake and I am paying for it with injured knees which will be treated with Synvisc for the next three weeks. It worked well last year and I should have left well enough alone and been happy to just be able to walk on my treadmill and to get in and out of my car. Oh well, I think I've learned this time.

We are sometimes hurt by friends and family but often unintentionally, and hopefully, we have learned that we are all in this world together and must pick ourselves up and continue on our journey.

Due to a visit from a painter(5th day of a 2 day job) and carpet cleaners, I will have to shut down my laptop for the rest of today. See you all later!

Hello Everyone, I apologize for sounding so melodramatic! I am currently 'watching a loved one's pain' and was feeling very vulnerable when I last posted. It bought to mind past losses and pains!! MaryZ and BaBi, I thank you for your concern and BaBi, thanks for my new name....soultrain?

soultwin, thanks for sharing. I agree, it is very painful to see someone you love in distress, and not be able to help.

Your mention of friends hurting us, perhaps unintentionally, reminded me of a painful experience many years ago. This woman and I became very close friends -- we had a lot in common, and we could talk for hours at a time. At one point, after we had been friends for a year or more, she just cut me out of her life. Period. Just like that.

I tried really hard to find out what was wrong. I was directing a children's choir at the time and didn't choose her daughter to sing a solo. I wondered if that was it. I wracked my brain trying to think of what I might have done to offend her.

Many years later, she told me that I had confided some very deep stuff to her about my childhood and my feelings about what happened to me (not child abuse or sexual abuse, but deep and profound), and apparently she felt like she could not handle the situation. She seemed to feel that I was too deeply wounded and that she was not capable of helping me (not that I was asking her to).

But this felt to me like emotional abandonment (something which I had experienced before -- in fact part of the deep and profound difficulties I mentioned earlier), and it was very devastating to me. It was especially devastating since I didn't know why it had happened. That was real pain, albeit emotional pain.

I love this:

"Everyone is down on pain, because they forget something important about it: Pain is for the living. Only the dead don’t feel it."

I am putting myself in a vicious cycle, because I don't deal with pain well. If I sit in my wheelchair or push myself around in it, I am comfortable. But if I try walking with my walker, or doing my physical therapy, it hurts. So I spend more and more time in my wheelchair, am getting weaker and, of coarse, the pain when I do try to walk is getting worse.

Shame on me! I know exactly what I'm doing, but I keep on doing it.

There! I hope admitting my stupidity to you all will shame me into doing something. I'm going to go exercise.

Texas Songbird......I feel your pain!

JoanK......Hang in there! I know you can do it!!

I'll be here with y'all as you explore this subject. Thanks for leading the discussion, BaBi.

As a long-term widow I had an opportunity to assess emotional pain this week. Had he lived, we would have celebrated our 48th anniversary. Oh, well, I have very good memories, and our four children who at times are, themselves, either a "pain" or a joy.

Ruth Ann

Ruth Ann Aw!! yes children a pain some times but then so much joy other times.

Oh,my. Did I do that? Soultrain instead of Soultwin...well, actually, I had to smile over that, too. No need to apologize, Soultwin. We all have times of being vulnerable, and it sometimes seems we will break if we don't speak out.

That was real pain, albeit emotional pain. Oh, Songbird, I have always found emotional pain to be much harder to bear than physical pain.

JOANK, I can remember my grandmother telling me the story of being diagnosed with arthritis in her 40's. She couldn't give up; she had too many people depending on her. She kept moving..and was still moving into her 90's. I can remember a neighbor I knew briefly was envious of me on her account. She said her own grandmother went to bed early on with arthritis, and 20 years later still had people waiting on her hand and foot! Stick with it, Hon. You don't want to lost what you've got.

ANN, feeling really good gets to be so rare, it really goes to our heads, doesn't it? I've been suckered into overdoing it more than once, so don't feel lonesome.

And if you’re very, very lucky, there are a very few blazing hot little pains you feel when you realize that you are standing in a moment of utter perfection>

I've felt such moments of utter perfection, but what I felt wasn't a 'blazing hot little pain'. It was a strange combination of joy and elation, combined with sadness. A nostalgia even while experiencing it, because I knew how fleeting it was and that I couldn't hold onto it. Have you been there?

Babi

I remember that even in grade school that we talked about this pain within pleasure. Always even in the moment of greatest joy, one feels pain somehow lurking in the background As one pop philosopher put it, "While joy dines at your board, pain is asleep in your bed." Maybe I got a word or two wrong there, but the idea is pretty nearly exactly thus.

I am so glad to see this discussion. Physical pain is my biggest problem and doctors won't give me anything for it. The problem is osteoarthritis where the cartelege is gone from 1 shoulder, 1 hip, and 1 knee. They call it bone on bone. I don't sleep well because of the pain. Can't sleep on my left side. Can't walk without a rollerator and looking for a power scooter, used. I had all the MRI's and X-rays and went to an orthopedist, who I think is a quack. He said take Tylenol, which I can't take, or Aleve, which clashes with Plavix. He said he can't do anything for me, to go home and take those pills. He refuses to do a knee replacement because I'm over 180 lbs. So I endure all kinds of pain. He's the only orthopedist here or I'd go for a 2nd opinion. I get up at night and sit in my power chair instead of sleeping in bed. I feel so bad all the time and can't do my usual activities any more because of pain. I know there is nothing to do beyond finding another doctor. Just needed to vent a little.

Hi, Anne. I empathize with you. Pain's no fun!

Hello Anne, I hope you will find another doctor. I had the same problem as cartelege was gone in both knees. I am over 200 lbs and the doctor made no mention of my weight. I had both knee joints replaced two years ago and am walking normally with no pain-just a little stiffness sometimes.

Also, I have a male friend who has osteoarthritis in one hip and both knees. His doctor replaced the hip joint about a month ago and he is walking well. The doctor wanted to do the hip first because he said the hip replacement would help the knees. They usually do the hip first. He will have the knee joints replaced at a later date. He is also over 200 lbs.

Best of luck to you. I hope you get some relief soon.

BaBi......Joy and elation, combined with sadness! Yes, I have been there. I often dream of family members who have passed.....especially my twin! My dreams are so vivid amd real and I am so happy to be with my sisters/parents/others, however, I always seem to know this is a dream and when I wake up they will not be there! When I do wake up, it is with a feeling of warmth and being cared for! This may not make sense to anyone, but, my dreams keep me going!!

Jerry - What you learned in grade school was a valuable life lesson. I agree that even when we are in the midst of our happiest moments, pain is always waiting patiently to return, in some form. Many people don't want to believe this, but I think it is just part of the human condition.

Talking about pain in the midst of joy reminded me of various periods I have gone through since I had my first episode of atrial fibrillation (too fast/too erratic heartbeat). Up until that time, I took my health for granted. Medicine seemed to have the condition under control, but for a long time after the first episode I would ahve this experience: "I'm fine this second, but what about the next second?"

After a year or so of the medication working, I began to quit worrying -- until I had another episode. I don't think it's ever been as bad as it was at the beginning, but there is always that awareness,an awareness I had not ever experienced until all this happened.

Again, this is not a physical pain -- it's an awareness kind of pain, that in the midst of the joy that I'm still alive is the awareness that the next moment could bring something different. The fact is, it has always been true that the next moment could bring something different -- it's just that most of us don't have a real awareness of that fact until something like this happens.

Or am I getting too maudlin?

No Texas you are not being maudlin. I am fairly young yet have autoimmune disease and fibromyalgia. I never thought I would be so hampered. I have done my own research into my illnesses and done better than the doctor did treating me. Much of what I started doing is now coming into general usage for patients with my problems. Today I have a lot of pain in my back. I feel good about myself because a lot of people with the same problems as mine do not have the same mobility I have so I am doing something right. First thing I did was get rid of any excess weight. That helped a lot with taking a load of my joints. Then I found that certain foods irritated my condition so I stopped eating them. I use heatpads and Tylenol ( we call it Panadol) when the pain really gets to me. I also have one of those special foam underlays on my bed. The ones that look like a honeycomb. They help a lot to keep me comfortable when I am in bed. I also got given an electric blanket this winter and I am REALLY enjoying the comfort that gives me. My sister has a pillowtop bed and thats great for joints and fibromyalgia too. They are really pricey.

I find keeping my mind busy and keeping moving does help to keep focus off the pain. Senior Net has been a great help with keeping my mind busy. I love the book discussions very much. I also knit and do some crochet. Both those activities are good therapy.

Carolyn

"pain is always waiting patiently to return, in some form. Many people don't want to believe this, but I think it is just part of the human condition."

You never said a truer word, Marilynne. It is a part of the human condition. It's even necessary. Pain is what warns us we're in trouble, often preventing us from getting into worse trouble. Some people, sadly, seem to suffer more than their share of pain. Learning how to cope with it, as CAROLYN did. can make a huge difference. I hope everyone will take a look at the first link above, on managing chronic pain.

I also have conditions that come and go, and are most unwelcome when they come. Once I learned that they did go, I focused my attention there. When a condition returned, such as an exacerbation of my relapsing/remitting MS, I try to ignore it as far as possible, going about my business with the firm expectation that it will go away again.

In my stint at the library yesterday, I came across a book that I immediately stopped and looked thru'. "Timely", I sez. It's not a new book; this was the 1998 update; FOODS THAT FIGHT PAIN, by Neal D. Bernard, M.D. I found this in the blurb. “Ginger can prevent migraines. Coffee sometimes cures migraine. Rice can calm digestion. Sugar can make you more sensitive to pain.[uh-oh] Evening Primrose eases arthritic pain.” These are not surefire weapons. You notice words like ‘sometimes‘ and ‘can’, rather than ‘will’. But if rice will calm my ‘irritable’ gut, I’ll happily eat more of it. And it has recipes!

SOULTWIN, your experience with dreams makes perfect sense to me. I have found my dreams to be of enormous help most of my life. I say 'most of my life', since the broken sleep I now experience is not conducive to remembering dreams, unfortunately.

babi

ALERT: I just did some more looking around in the first link, "Lifestyle Management for the Chronic Pain Survivor" and found that not all the links are functioning properly. The 'Lifestyle Mangement' link has lists of subjects, but doesn't go anywhere. The 'Feedback' link doesn't accept a name or mailing address, so it doesn't go anywhere, either. There is still some good information there, but I'm going to see if I can find a better link on the subject.

Babi

The first link in the heading is now a Mayo Clinic article titled Reclaiming your life in spite of cronic pain.

Coffee is also good to help with opening bronchial tubes if you have bronchitis. My daughter uses coffee if she has asthma or a migraine. Of course those people with irregular heartbeats should avoid too much caffeine.

Babi I have many online friends with MS. I met them in my health support forum. I share many of their symptoms so we have stayed good friends even though I don't have MS. I admire all of them because they are so determined to keep going. One of them a Neuro Physicist has written a novel which is in the process of being published now and the main character has MS. Dok is in a wheelchair although he is only my age and has severe progressive MS. His novel writing and the pleasure he gets from observing wildlife on his property keep him going. He is also a great help with other MS sufferers on the forum because he is a brain specialist. He has not let the loss of his career or his daily pain stop him in his tracks.

I read a book written by a cancer specialist. He did an experiment with some of his patients who had chronic pain. He took them fishing every Saturday and the hours they spent fishing dropped their pain levels remarkedly. This reinforces my belief that if you focus the brain off chronic pain some natural pain killer kicks in ( probably in the brain) and pain is greatly diminished.

Carolyn

Ever notice that when you're in pain, but still go to sleep, when you wake up, the pain doesn't begin again immediately, but you experience a few seconds interlude when you don't feel the pain?

One of the things I've had new experiences with this week has been first what seems to be a chronic headache for several days that has eased temporarily.

Yet, 2 times (one of them being today) I've experienced pain relief after eating lunch with friends. Once this occurred at work, when spontaneously 6 more people sat down at the table I was at, and then as others plopped into chairs, we pulled extra tables together.

Today was a scheduled time to be with a group of older ladies, all of whom have experienced love and loss. Each of us has her own deep faith, although we don't all worship together, or even in the same type affiliation. So we've named ourselves L.O.S.S. -- Ladies of Spiritual Substance. Seldom does our talk surround either the pain we've endured or of our spiritual differences. Yet, each member in this loose knit group brings strengths, joys, and new experiences to share. It's always a special time for me when I can be with them.

And, it certain is nice that the headache pain has subsided for at least a while.

Ruth Ann

Jerry, perhap that's because you haven't moved then?

Auto immune diseases can be strange. When I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid at 30, I was devastated mentally as well as physically. I had 3 little children, and I thought my life was over. Then I fell pregnant with my 4th and it was heaven on earth, the pain vanished and I could do anything. Then he was born, and back it came with a vengeance. I couldn't lift him, or change him etc. Later, I had one of those light bulb moments and thought if I take the Pill forever, i'll be right, I'll be forever pregnant! Not so, said the dear old doctor, artificial doesn't work. Still I had my 9 months of heaven.

I do think though that mental pain is worse, because there is no panacea but time, and time takes it time.

I believe that mental pain and physical pain are interrelated.

I believe that being with friends and loved ones can reduce pain.

I believe that happy events cause an increase in serotonin production, which can reduce pain.

I believe that cold compresses can help many types of pain. The simplest source of a cold compress is a plastic bag of frozen vegetables, then use towel around it.

You can also get Ace cold compresses in drugstores for a few bucks. They are flat, gel-filled packets. You can keep one in the freezer ready for use, and it molds around body parts better than frozen peas. They're a lifesaver for me.

Cold is not good for my fibromyalgia although its good for joint inflammation. I use a herbal rub called Anti Flamme for the joints and heat pads for the fibromyalgia. Both of these do help. Believe it or not the Anti Flamme if carefully massaged into the forehead ( making sure to avoid the eyes) is wonderful for sinus headaches. I also put the antiflamme carefully on my cheeks where my sinus passages run. My daughter and I are great Anti flamme fans. If I eat foods in the deadly nightshade family daily my joints immediately inflame and go stiff. I thought that was rubbish when I read it but after keeping a food diary I proved that eating these foods daily really aggravated my arthritis. Sugar also is a trigger for me. Potatos and tomatos are a real problem in my case. I am not saying this is a cure but it definately makes my situation worse if I indulge. Sweet potato does not affect me.

Now this is what I call helpful, exciting posts! Happy Bill and Ruth Ann have pointed out the happy events and being with friends and loved ones can reduce pain. TRUE!

My son-in-law, now deceased, was hemophiliac. We were able to see how happiness decreased his symptoms, and unhappiness brought them back. I have always believed the unexpected bonus, for him, of having a wife and child he never expected to have is the reason he outlived his prior life expectancy.

CAROLYN has pointed out the importance of studying one's diet to see what foods have a negative effect, or a positive effect. It's not the same for everyone. The link we just changed, as it was presenting problems, did have this to say:

"Each person is different and thus, each person's pain is different as well. Remember, each person's anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, neurology, mental make-up, experiences, environment, lifestyle, and current health, along with differences in location of the condition(s) within the body, the interaction and proximity of multiple conditions with one another, the length of time of the condition(s)existence, and severity, all can be different, and thus, two people with the same diagnosis might share similarity in name only. [from Pain-Pal]

JAN, I was so intrigued to read that your rheumatoid arthritis symptoms disappeared while you were pregnant. You would think that even if the 'pill' didn't work, some research ought to be able to reproduce the same factors that the pregnancy did. What a boon for RA sufferers that would be! Have you done any checking into what the RA foundation is doing in that area? Don't be bashful about giving them some feedback and asking. We'd all like to know about that.

Babi

No, I haven't Babi. That was my last child, so it was never going to apply again. That was 27 years ago, so they've had plenty of time! Every doctor spoke of it, so it was commom knowledge even then. they told me that it would come back with a vengeance and it was horrific.I never want to feel like that again.

A young friend here has RA, and a 3rd grader. She said that, opposite from Jan, she was in terrible shape while she was pregnant because she couldn't take any of her medications. She didn't start getting better until after her daughter was born.

This is certainly an interesting discussion.

Ruth Ann

Mary Z. What meds does your friend take. doctor says I have RA but gives me no meds for it.

I don't know what oral meds she takes, Ginger. She gets an infusion of a powerful medication (I can't think of the name right now) about every six weeks. She has been coming to our swimming class for a couple of years now. She was quite heavy, and had the lap-band surgery for weight loss. She's lost over 100 pounds now. We can usually tell when she's having a bad day.

My sister has those infusions. She has a terminal auto immune disease, as well as attacking her joints her organs are being attacked. Its quite a rare disease. Its a sort of chemotherapy drug they use to treat severe cases of auto immune disease. She was having the infusions when they thought she had RA. It took 11 years for her to get the right diagnosis. Her specialist told her she will not live as long a life as she would have done without the disease. My sister has a lot of pain and her joints bleed also its awful to see that.

Carolyn

My father and my sister both died of autoimmune diseases. It's something that is always at the front of my mind. That's why I was floored when I got a diagnosis of breast cancer in 2005 - that had never been a concern. Fortunately, that seems to be on the back-burner at this time, after lumpectomy and radiation.

I am sorry to hear about your sister, Carolyn. My siser had systemic scleroderma - it attacked her digestive system.

Thanks Mary Z for the answer, my RA is just getting started so am doing what I can. I like my doctor and he has his problems now with a wife who has had a stroke and I understand so when he don't do what I think I need well I just keep checking out how others handle things. On my last visit I asked for a treatment as he is and osteropath and he did not give me one so when someone suggested a chiropractor I went and it worked. I had never been to a chiropractor before but will continue to go if need be.

Ginger, I'm sending you an e-mail. And you can Click Here for the SeniorNet discussion on osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis.

Mary, Will watch for it. Thanks.

It's so hard to see people dealing with intractable diseases and pain. One can't help thinking there must be something that can be done! Yet there are so many things for which there is no cure, and one can only try for ways of coping. The problem is compounded, of course, when the doctor, for one reason or another, is not of much help.

The Mayo Clinic article gives sound basic advice for seeking help.

If you've been going from doctor to doctor seeking relief, it's time to make a decision. You may choose a family physician, a specialist with expertise in your underlying condition, a pain management specialist or several doctors to work together.

When selecting a doctor, look for someone who:

Understands chronic pain Wants to help Listens well Helps you feel at ease Encourages you to ask questions Allows you to disagree Is willing to talk with your loved ones Has a positive attitude

If you work with several doctors, make sure all of them have access to your medical records. Inform each doctor of the pain medication you're taking, who's prescribing it and what, if any, additional drugs you take for other reasons. Once your pain is under control, your primary doctor can provide ongoing prescriptions for pain medication.

The regular family doctor is not always the best in dealing with problems of pain. IMO, a specialist in either the underlying condition or pain management is best to recommend a course of treatment, which can then be carried on by one's regular physician.

Q. What has your experience been in finding help for painful conditions? Some of you have already said that you were able to do more good by relying on your own programs. Were other doctors consulted, aside from your regular physician? Have you ever changed doctors, because you felt the one you were seeing was not competent? Or not listening?

No one knows my body as well as I do. (I've been in it such a long time!) And as a reasonably intelligent woman, I expect my physician to take me seriously when I tell him something. And I have learned through hard experience to refuse a med. that I know will mess me up!

Babi

Mal: It's so good to see you posting here, with your sage and wise advice. You have presented many helful ideas to the group. Your spunky advise is such a good lesson in never giving up or giving in to pain or disabilities.

Acupuncture is a recognised main stream treatment in our nation.Many people get relief with taking Acupuncture treatment. I know many people including my stepdad who have acupuncture for pain relief.

Carolyn

I've noticed also that pain goes away when I'm in my recliner or with certain positions in bed just before going to sleep.

About foods.....I wonder about sugar. That won't grow back cartelege in joints, but I've read reports of people having less pain when they did away completely with sugar and foods with sugar. Losing weight is a side effect that is good because they say heavyweight is bad for knee and hip joints.

I'd like to go for a 2nd opinion, but this is a small community and we don't have alot of doctors. There is a pain clinic and I may go there and see what they say. I don't believe what that orthopedist said about not doing knee transplants on people over 180 lbs. He just didn't want to be bothered. Some doctors just don't want to treat seniors. Just grab our money. A 300 lb. woman on TV had a knee replacement and only had a longer recovery than usual. She walks OK now.

That muscle pain cream lots of us use like BenGay, caused death in a young person recently in FL. The report was that he used too much of it, but that too much killed him. So users beware. He was a track star or something like that, and had a lot of muscle pain from overtraining. He just kept using and using it without letup. Scary.

You will not die from using a herbal rub. The rubs that contain things like Ibobrufen etc must be used with caution. I have never used that type of product. The warm ingredient in my rub is Peppermint oil and the rest of the ingredients are calendular oil and arnica.

carolyn

PS - There are many ailments that could be greatly helped by the sufferers shedding weight. Today we are prescribing drugs to compensate for lifestyle choices. They will not operate here for some expensive procedures if the patient does not give up smoking. Should it not also be the same for those who are obese or those who are alcohol dependant? If everyone ate the right foods we would save millions of dollars on cholesterol control medication, blood pressure medications and related drugs. Losing unwanted pounds can result in more mobility therefore people become more active thus increasing their fitness levels. I know my mobility was severely compromised when I put on 50 lbs over a period of five years. I lost those 50lbs in 15mths and I got so much flexibility etc back. It also took so much pressure of my arthritic joints. The improvement was quite remarkable. Here in NZ the weight gain amongst our young people is very alarming. I have never seen so many overweight and obese youngsters. It is true what the doctors are saying we are in for epidemics of diabetes and heart disease in young people. We may have a generation of people needing heart operations and joint replacements before their 40th birthdays. One doctor was saying there are teenagers now with high blood pressure. Its very scary isn't it?

Good to see a post about acupuncture. One reason I am alive today and posting on internet is from the overall body vitality provided to me by my Oriental Medical Doctor- yes a fully licensed and recognized MD--- who did acupuncture and herbal treatments before, during and after a number of western medical mistakes. I am not demonizing western medicine, but affirming that both systems and approaches can make for quality treatment.

YiLin- there are quite a few Medical doctors here who practice acupuncture. There is also a blind Physiotherapist who believe it or not is one of our foremost acupuncture practioners.

Carolyn

Just a short note to "weigh in" (no pun intended) on acupuncture. I have an extremely painful condition called Atypical Trigeminal Neuralgia. (facial nerve pain). I won't bore you with the details, but will just say that it can't be addressed with standard painkillers. They simply do not work on this type of nerve pain. I went to a highly recommended acupuncturist, and kept up the treatments for about three months. Nothing - no change. Didn't even touch the pain. I can't begin to tell you how disappointing it was for me and for the acupuncturist too.

I'm not saying that it doesn't work for some conditions, but please don't oversell it, and make it sound like some sort of a panacea, because it's not.

Marilyne - The sort of pain you experience cannot be touched by most pain killers. I don't think acupuncture is any different. Like any other type of treatment there are some conditions that beat all attempts at pain relief. My BIL has such a condition. However acupuncture does help many, without them needing to take drugs a lot of which taken long term can affect liver and kidney functions. One size does not fit all as the old saying goes.

It's quite a chilly morning here, and I was reluctant to leave the computer so I googled the above and found this

"Pregnancy in most cases is associated with remission of RA but a quarter of patients continue to have active disease or even worsening of the disease. Most patients who improve, relapse in the postpartum period."

So MaryZ your friend and I are both right!

I tried acupuncture too and it had no effect, but I enjoyed it a lot. Soft music, tingly feeling and a nice rest. My needles had a current running through them, but in movies they're just loose. Wonder why?

Jan, just goes to show that there are NO rules when dealing with autoimmune diseases.

Sorry to be late, folks. I was up half the night, and didn't get on-line this morning before my daughter Val had to start work.

MAL, I was hoping you would come by. I knew with your long history of dealing with pain, you would be a most valuable contributor. You are so right about concentrating on other things to distract one from pain. By the same token, concentrating on the pain seems to make it much worse. Which is why even minor pain can keep people awake at night;..there's very little to distract them from dwelling on the pain.

ANNE, sugar has been identified here bu more than one poster as playing a negative part in pain. The book I mentioned by Dr. Bernard on foods and pain included: "Sugar can make you more sensitive to pain. [uh-oh] (The 'uh-oh' is mine.) I would take what the TV ads say with a grain of salt, tho'. They have a product to sell, and can be selectively vague with details.

Marilynne, I'm really sorry you have such intractable pain. Isn't there a surgical treatment involving severing the nerve(s) involved? It would, of course, leave numb areas, but that would surely be preferable. I would like to learn anything you know about that.

Acupuncture has gained wide acceptance here in the last couple of decades,.thank goodness! As Marilynne says, it's no magical cure-all, but it's definitely a major tool in treating many conditions, inc.l. pain.

In researching this subject, I found a reference to 'psychological pain. I hadn't heard of that before, and would have assumed something of that kind would fall under emotional pain. But,

Psychological pain is distinct and separate from emotional pain, which is 'heartache' due to a true or perceived loss. In his book The Fisher King and the Handless Maiden, Jungian analyst and author Robert A. Johnson describes psychological pain as "the wounded feeling function in masculine and feminine psychology".

Frankly, I'm still having trouble clearly understanding the distinction. Could I get some feedback from you-all on this one? How would you distinguish emotional pain from 'psychological' pain?

Babi

I could not distinguish emotional pain from psychological pain! Seems the same to me......

Hi.....I was sent this link this morning by another member of SN....looks like one could have an interesting discussion here

I have Spina Bifida, Diastematomyelia and a Tethered Cord (the filum is stuck in the sacrum) Consequently most of my pain is nerve pain, as someone said previously that is hard to treat.

Babi....I think what Robert Johnson is getting at is......

Pyschological pain usually occurs when it has a physical basis...ie broken leg etc. As most know 'stress' exacerbates pain, which is where the 'psychological stress' comes into play. Emotional pain, as I understand it, is to do with being able to express emotions ie crying, comparing pain, or an outside loss etc.

Well that is my understanding. I could be wrong

Either way it is a fine line......

Peta

Welcome, PETA. This is certainly a subject you will know well. I'm sorry to hear you have such a heavy load to bear.

I'm still working on the 'psychological pain' Johnson describes. I can't see where it would have a physical basis. (I wonder if you could have 'physiological' in mind?) He says psychological pain is a 'wounded feeling' in men and women. So..if someone makes me feel disregarded, small, stupid, ...is that psychological pain or wounded pride? Maybe it is significant that 'wounded' pride is such a common phrase. Frankly, if so, I feel the very real physical and emotional pain people face makes wounded pride pretty small potatoes.

Babi

Long ago, a pretty girl lived next door;
She used to pick mulberries in a distant grove,
Returning with her white arms full of
Gold and silver branches.
She sang with a heart-rending voice
And sparkled with life.
Young farmers put aside their hoes when they saw her,
And many forgot to return home when she was around.
Now she is just a white-haired granny,
burdened with the aches and pains of old age.

by Ryōkan 1780 - 1831

BaBi: A suggestion on "how to keep from concentrating on pain at night". Tune into a radio talk show. One that I use is Art Bell/George Norry, talking about UFOs, ghosts, time travel, etc. It might keep your attention long enough, then lull you to sleep.

I listen to audio books at night. Sure fire way for me to get off to sleep. I have a portable radio/CD/cassette player in my bedroom.

Carolyn

I think emotional pain is what we feel when we lose someone very close to us, or lose a favorite pet.

Psychological pain might be what we feel when we get a bad report on a physical condition. Or pain at what happens to us. After hurricane Andrew destroyed my house and existence, and forced me into retirement, I suffered extreme psycholgical pain plus PTSS. That kind of pain was real and kept me incapacitated for 2 years. It gets into the brain and controls feelings. But, as someone said. there is a fine line.

I have to say that I call emotional or psycological pain "distress" and also "depression" and other of that sort of term. To me Pain is when you stub your toe. Or you have a swollen firy red joint from arthritis..that is pain. A back ache is pain. Pain after my mastectomy lasted only two days then I suffered only distress till the incision healed. I really find a vast distinction between pysical pain and psycological pain. Grief at the loss of a close family member is the closest to physical suffering coming from an emotional loss that I have experienced. There were several deaths that gave me a terrible stomach ache and pains in my throat that were very physically felt. I also think different people experience Pain in very different ways.

Ask any diagnostician and he will tell you he doesnt diagnose by the patients subjective report of pain as much as he does by objective signs and the tests they have today. Faithr

Another type of pain is "phantom pain". As I understand it, this is pain felt in an extremity that has been amputated. It's not something I've experienced (for which I'm thankful), but it must be a terrible experience.

Faithr -

re your comments about your mastectomy. It seems to me (as a person who hasn't experienced breast cancer), that the two days of pain would be physical and the pain/grief from what happened to your body and possibly your sense of identity/self would be psychological pain. And the pain of waiting to hear would also be psychological.

One of the things that seems to give me great emotional pain is when I feel "trapped" - it occurred in '05 when my foot was broken (that was in a sense being physically trapped) and recently I've endured another kind of "trapped" because of extenuating factors on the job.

Also, of course, I experienced deep pain in my very being when I learned my hubby was terminally ill.

As for physical pains - I seem to have my share, as do most of us.

Thanks for the welcome BaBi……Please forgive late replies from me, I’m in Western Australia so when I get up so much has happened here while I’m snoozing

With psychological pain, as far as I see it, is after the physical. I have had spinal surgery which prevents me from moving around as much, it’s deteriorating and I’m in pain. Therefore I have the physical pain but then also the psychological pain of loss. Texas Songbird also gave a good example in their post.

An example I can think of with emotional pain is my son. He is autistic, that is not the emotional pain , but when you see other children of his same age, dating, perhaps getting their drivers licence, doing what normal teens would do and he can’t……..well that is emotional pain to me, a loss if you like. However I can honestly say I wouldn’t change him for the world . Ruth Ann’s post also is a good example of emotional pain.

Pain, whether psychological, emotional or physical is very real and can’t be discounted nor compared. It is all relative to the person. It is how you deal with that pain and being able to find coping mechanisms to help you overcome them that may assist in day to day living.

I hope everyone is having a peaceful nights sleep

Peta

I think grief is a big part of psychological/emotional pain. A woman from my church who has always been active is going through tough times now. She lost her husband a year and a half or so ago and broke her hip about a year ago. She's done well with therapy, but she is disappointed, I think, that she has not gotten back to her old self. I think she's feeling now that she never will. That's grief -- and severe psychological/emotional pain.

Before my mother died, I think she experienced the same thing -- that she had hopes of regaining her strength and getting back to her life, however limited it was. But when she realized that she would likely be bedridden and in constant pain, I think that's when she started giving up. She started refusing food and medication, and hung on just until I was in the state so that my sister and I could comfort each other. And then she just slipped away.

It's what I said before about identity. I think the core of pyschological pain is the loss of identity, or at least feeling that you don't know who you are anymore.

Excellent, excellent, excellent! The views and examples of the differences between psychological and emotional pain have me sitting here saying 'Yes, yes, yes!' You guys are great!

ANNE: "It gets into the brain and controls feelings."

FAITH notes that emotional pain can cause very real physical pain, something I'm sure we've all experienced. She also notes that physicans have to base their treatment on objective evidence of pain, rather than subjective reports of their patients. That makes sense, as people react to pain very differently. Some are far less tolerant of it than others.

CHESHIRE CATS very moving example: "but when you see other children of his same age, dating, perhaps getting their drivers licence, doing what normal teens would do and he can’t……..well that is emotional pain to me," Indeed it is.

TEXAS SONGBIRD: "It's what I said before about identity. I think the core of pyschological pain is the loss of identity." I think this definition is much better than Johnson's.

[I hope you don't mind my re-capping these comments. Together, they give me such a clear and helpful idea of psychological vs. emotional pain.]

Bill and Carolyn, your suggestions are both excellent. Unfortunately, one of my annoyances of old age is a neural hearing deficit, which makes it difficult, if not impossible, to translate sounds coming through mechanical objects. At drive-thrus, I just give my order. If they have questions, they have to wait til I reach the window!

Babi

Babi, you quoted Faith as saying: "She also notes that physicans have to base their treatment on objective evidence of pain, rather than subjective reports of their patients. That makes sense, as people react to pain very differently. Some are far less tolerant of it than others. "

When I go to the rheumatologist, they always ask me for a 1-10 rating of how my pain is on that day. And they accept my answer. They assume that my level of pain is based on what I think it is right then. This 1-10 rating is used in hospitals now, too.

Yes, I had mixed feelings on that one. Pain IS subjective, but I think many of the medical "mistakes" we read about are because doctors discount what patients know about their own bodies. And if I say I have pain, I have pain. I'm personally very careful in describing pain. I'll say something like "It's not so much as a pain as a twinge," or such. It probably drives the doctors crazy, but I have very definite ideas in my own mind as to what is pain and what is not quite pain.

A different and perhaps esoteric perspective, especially reading about psychological pain. Having experienced physical pain that effected the physical body to a NDE my perspective is that pain is a kind of altered state (yep even without the drugs!), and extreme pain in a way can guide the mind (because we look to various alternatives to control the pain) into an entirely new and interesting reality.

I think what happens is when the person in pain gets to relax and accepts and uses that state, which can project external physical and aural responses, it is those looking on who categorize the person in pain. In their sympathy (note I did not say empathy) they in a way aggravate the pain because they reinforce a 'socially accepted' expected behavior for the person in pain.

For the person on the other side, or 'inside' the pain he/she has found a new reality that might include moaning, grimacing, chanting, singing, rocking etc. but it is the observers who look on that behavior from outside the pain and unknowingly contribute to the exacerbation of the emotional contributers to pain.

In summary: let those of us in pain scream, curse, express anger and resentment-- and take the drugs or other modalities we ask for, not what those observing thing is best.

Nice one YiLiLin!

Every time I stand these days I grunt or moan......but the looks I get are hmmmm derogatory. It is a natural response to 'wince', if you will, when pain is there.

I was told once "do you have to do that!" which only made me, for a short while, clamp my lips when I had to do something physical. Which of course only made matters worse because you internalize the pain.

When we 'scream, curse, express anger and resentment' it is also just a small way of coping with day to day living. A mini vent to a certain degree.

Mary Z I dislike that scale of '1 to 10' intensely. I remember once I was in extreme back pain and had to go to the hospital for pain relief. They asked me that question and I burst out laughing and said "If I was a regular person I would say 20!" they looked at me blankly lol. I thought okay, no sense of humour and then said "10" to which they walked away.....sigh.

I have my mother visiting for a few days so I will try to post during this time.

Thank you, all of you, getting my mind thinking again!

Peta

Good points, everyone. The 1-10 scale is also subjective, but it does convey the intensity felt by the person in pain. Actually, PETA, if I felt the pain was worse than ever, I would state '15' with nary a smile, and a firm tone of voice.

Also on a personal note, SONGBIRD, I don't stay with a doctor who doesn't pay attention to what I'm telling him/her. That 'me Doctor, you dumb patient' just doesn't go over with me. Like you, I am very specific about what I'm feeling, and where.

YIYILIN has brought up an important issue, the right of the sufferer to handle their pain as best they can. Though it is true that they person who reacts to pain, of any degree, with screaming and yelling can be extremely nervewracking.

I believe ones early childhood training has a major effect on how we handle pain as adults. My Dad was of the stiff upper lip crying doesn't help school. (I did contradict him on the latter, tho, at one point. I insisted that the crying made me feel better!) On the whole, tho', I don't find crying a help in coping with physical pain, and most of my life I had a rather high threshold of pain.

I learned something very important about pain during my second delivery. A nurse explained that if I could manage to not tense up, the pain would be less. So when the pains came, I would deliberately relax and let the pains simply wash over me. It was easier, and as I came to learn, shortened the delivery time. From that time and thru' my subsequent deliveries, the time from onset of regular contractions to delivery was four hours. I could tell the nurse when I got to the hospital precisely when the baby would be ready for delivery.

Babi

Actually, my doctors do listen to me. It's nurses, especially in the hospital, who do not. I have very tiny veins that are very deep and that roll (and then sometimes collapse), so getting blood from me or inserting an IV in me is extremely difficult, even for the best technician. I always tell them I'm a hard stick. Sometimes they pay attention and poke around before sticking, sometimes they don't. But whether they listen or not, they almost always have trouble. When I tell them things that have worked in the past, they almost always ignore me and just try sticking me in a different place. I get very frustrated when they don't listen.

I have much the same blood draw problem. Recently it was awful. I couldn't even squeeze the little ball with either hand because of the recent carpal tunnel surgeries. But, finally after what seemed like the entire lab hovered and encouraged and tapped and patted and had me put the one good arm in various positions, the brave young lady who tried got in on the first try! THANK GOODNESS.

Scene..emergency room. A friend of my daughter's has been in an accident, and she is being evaluated. She, and another patient in the next gurney, are having blood drawn. The two nurses are chatting with one another. Nurse #1:"Have you ever done this before?" Nurse #2:"No, have you?" Nurse #1: "Yes, but I'm not very good at it." [TRUE STORY].

How's that for considering patient morale and confidence? This seems a legitimate issue for this topic. In coping with pain, how do you deal with insensitive or 'deaf' medical practitioners? No one wants to be needlessly rude or unappreciative of our caregivers, but! I think it is necessary sometimes to STOP the proceedings, and insist that the person ministering LOOK you in the face, and LISTEN to what you are saying.

My daughter once suffered extreme and unnecessary pain while in the hospital. It turned out that the doctor had written orders that would have greatly ameliorated her pain, but the treatment nurse consistently failed to follow thru'. Valerie did not know such orders had been written. It was only when another nurse discovered she was not receiving the help she needed that the omission was corrected. (And you could hear the doctor yelling at the nurse all over the floor. He gave more orders...that this particular nurse was never to tend any of his patients again.)

The point is, either the patient or a family member looking out for them, sometimes needs to take action. And in today's busy, often understaffed hospitals, it's important that a family member or friend be there if the patient is too 'out of it' to look out for themselves.

Babi

My daughter had an accident when she was about 12 that damaged her foot. Her foot had been dragged across the pavement in the accident, and her foot was just raw -- and it had lots of debris from the road in it. They would make her put her foot in a soapy whirlpool several times a day, and she would scream the whole time. She begged and begged the doctor to not make her do that. He finally agreed, but he didn't write it as an order, so the nurses made her do it again. In a case like that, it seems that when the parents are telling the nurses something, they at least should have checked with the doctor. But instead, my daughter had to go through agonizing pain one last time. I think the whole experience left her with a distrust of doctors and nurses for a long time.

Re Babi's true story -- I often say something like, "No offense, but I want your best person to do this." Sometimes I get, "We're all good," at which time I respond, "When you get into trouble, who do you call? THAT's the one I want!" I say this in a gentle way, but have gotten to the point in my life where not being in pain is more important than not hurting somebody's feelings.

I have to have blood drawn at least every 4 wks. My martyr days are over for suffering thru the procedure, as many of you have mentioned.

As soon as the tech enters the room I tell him/her: "this is a one shot deal, use a butterfly(pediatric) needle and no fishing after you're in! I also request the paper bandaid that is easier to take off without removing skin with it.

Now after two yrs of having blood drawn I know which ones at the lab are most proficient and I ask for them by name.

This might make me a crotchety old lady but ask me if I care. I feel that we should take our own feelings into consideration at this point in time rather than being the brave martyr and say nothing, don't you?

camper-great! I not only say one stick but remind them to use a pediatric butterfly to draw blood. I wanted to respond to previous posts to remind people they had the personal authority to take control, you can always say no. But your post supercedes that.

A very important point, YIYILIN. We do have the right to take control. TEXAS SONGBIRD could have flatly refused to permit another treatment on her daughter, no matter what the nurse said.

Unfortunately, it's only in the last decade or two that people have become aware that the doctor can advise, but he can't force, treatment. The nurses have to obey his orders; his patients don't. (Of course, if a patient habitually refuses to follow his advice, the doctor will no doubt tell them to go find another doctor. I wouldn't blame him/her for that.)

Babi

I agree with the request for a "butterfly" needle. It is usually painless. You may know that the reason they want to use larger needles is that it takes them less time to download the blood into the tube or vial. If they don't have a butterfly on hand, ask for a size 22 or smaller needle. By quoting numbers they'll think you might be a nurse or doctor and will follow your instructions!

My back pain started after hormone treatment for prostate cancer.

My internist prescribed Darvocet then Ultram, neither of which gave me relief.

Getting in and out of bed was Hell. I was referred to an orthopedist who prescribed heat treatments and therapy.

I then used TENS, a device that used electrical current to alleviate the pain.

The pain got better about the time I finished my cancer treatment.

I moved to Virginia and saw a new urologist and since my PSA had risen I was again put on Lupron, a hormone prostate cancer treatment. Soon the pain went off the scale and I tried a chiropracter.

His heat and manipulation helped a bit and finally he recommended that I see an orthopaedist. More therapy and more Darvocet.

One night I got in bed and the pain was so intense I screamed with pain. My wife called 911 and I was taken to the ER, still in screaming pain.

A shot of some powerful pain killer stopped the pain and an MRI the next morning showed the cause of all my peain--two compression fractures of the spine and two compression fractures which had healed.

Fortunately the Dr. on call was trained in Balloon Kyphoplasty and after surgery I walked out of the hospital almost pain free.

I then found out that bone loss was one of Lupron's side effects along with depression, which is also suffered along with the pain.

I am still angry that not one doctor along the way diagnosed my problem. Most of my anger goes to the urologist who admininstered the cancer treatment without warning me and my internist of the problems it could generate.

I have a new compression fracture, but what little pain I have from this is manageable with Lortabs, which my internist is brave enough to prescribe. Arthritis is probably the cause of the pain I now experience as the fracture is at the very end of the spine.

As I see it, my search for answers to my pain was due to LUCK. Any treatment I get now results in plenty of questions and some searching on the internet. WebMd and SeniorNet are supplying the answers I need.

My son is having back surgery shortly. He had a bad fall which resulted in two compression fractures. As he is under 40 he can't live with that level of injury without spinal surgery. He has been in so much pain and nothing much alleviates it. The only thing that did was a local anaesthetic when they did an unsuccessful pain block procedure to keep him going until he has his surgery. I feel sorry for my son as I have had major back problems in the past. I thank a therapist for the three week intensive massage and manipulation program which have kept my sciatic nerve from being pinched for around 20 years now. I have problems from a neck injury and an injury from lifting my late husband in the area between my shoulder blades but my lower back is free from pain. Xrays show I have calcification in the soft tissue in my neck which are from an old whiplash injury. I get dreadful headaches in that area from time to time which can last for weeks at a time.

Carolyn

Ray: Does that mean that you won't accept the harmone treatment anymore, regardless of your PSA? Or, will you insist on a drug that prevents bone loss and may even increase bone density? Some examples are Fosamax, Pamidronate, Alendronate, etc.

Thanks to the Internet we have access to information which can assist us in making decisions regarding our treatment etc and not rely on the doctor always being right. It is good to be able to find out about drug side effects when we are taking a new drug. I have found doctors do not give enough information as to what to look for. Even the packaging with the drugs is not good enough. My mums friend died from side effects of a heart drug. If she had been informed properly she could have gone right back to her doctor and she would have been here today.

Carolyn

I am currently on Boniva and 1200 units of calcium.

I plan to treat any medical condition that comes up. However, I will use the treatment only after knowing about side effects and interaction with other meds, as well as any other over the counter substance.

Unfortunately, many people lie to their doctors or fail to mention information that is critical to their treatment.

Same goes for doctors, either out of ignorance or laxity.

That is good news about BONIVA, which builds bone mass with only one tablet a month. I also take 1200 mg of Citracal daily, but no urologist or oncologist has ever recommended anything else. I'll going to ask them why, and hopefully get started on it.

Thanks to each person who shares. Those butterfly needles (or size 22 or less) sound like a potential for pain reduction is ahead.

Ruth Ann

Your post rang alarm bells with me. Was that Lupron Depot?

One and the same.

I am scheduled for my PSA next month and a visit with the urologist to see whether another shot is in order. I am also getting a roto-rooter job soon.

I have lived 6 years since I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. I was told 5 to 10 years and I would die of something else. At 86 I can't find any reason to complain about much of anything.

See, this is what I mean. Our days of being martyrs need to be a thing of the past. I don't know where I got the idea I was supposed to quietly accept whatever pain came along.

Ray, I had a back problem too that caused me so much pain I couldn't sleep at night. Then my legs were involved which made walking hard. I decided it was all my fault and somehow I had a slipped disc. Finally I had a Catscan and it revealed I had a fractured 1st and4th vertebra.

It made me wake up and smell the roses. If I have pain something is causing it and there may be a way to avoid it, as in smaller needles or as in the back pain rather than take two apsirin and try to forget about it. My least favorite diagnostic comment is...."well, as one ages...."

Any side effects from Boniva?

I stopped using Miacalcin because of trouble with my nose.

Fosamax left me with a stomach ache.

At least Boniva is once a month if it causes problems.

It seems that addiction to pain medications, both prescriptions and OTC is an expanding problem for which doctors and the legal system have to deal.

The age and the severity of pain should make it possible for doctors to be unafraid to prescribe the necessary medication to ease suffering.

My wife spent her last days on Fantanyl (sp) patches. She expressed her thanks to the doctor for the prescription and died pain free as far as I could tell.

What to do with the addicts to pain medications is a problem for the medical profession, not our legal system.

Some claim that marihuana should be a legal prescription drug for those in need.

RUTH ANN: I want to clarify something. Size 22 or smaller is the way to say it. The larger the number, the smaller the needle. Size 23 is a smaller needle than 22. The common butterfly used on adults is a 23, but for children it can be as small as a size 27.

Oh, yes, indeed. If I have pain something is causing it and there may be a way to avoid it. I wanted to say that again, CAMPER. The purpose and function of pain is to alert us to trouble. We wouldn't be hurting if something wasn't wrong. DON'T IGNORE SERIOUS PAIN!

Which still leaves the problem of finding a good doctor who will get to the root of your problem. Of the treatment for a particular diagnosis isn't helping, maybe it's the wrong diagnosis. RAY gave us a really rough example of what happens when a doctor assumes you're having a recurrence of an old problem, w/o really checking it out.

We all could probably tell a horror story or two about badly manqaged medical care. Fortunately, there are also many excellent, thorough and caring physicians out there. If you are not satisfied with your present care, don't be shy about seeking help elsewhere.

Babi

So far we've been focusing mostly on physical pain, tho' we did briefly go into the severe pain of grief from loss of a loved one. There are other sources of emotional pain that haven't been mentioned. The link in the heading on "Tips for Surviving Emotional Pain" is worth your attention, I think. I am copying the opening paragraph here:

Extremely dangerous and terrifying events...are almost always experienced as traumatic because of their severe intensity and because of the tremendous sense of powerlessness that often occurs. Most people who live through them are haunted by extreme anxiety, nightmares, and memories for weeks (and many times for months or years) after the event itself. Such tragedies profoundly affect a person’s sense of safety in the world and can unleash agonizing questions about the meaningfulness and fairness of life.

I have not personally experienced this kind of trauma, so I can't really comment. I'm guessing, tho', that some of you posters have. Please pitch in here and let's explore this sort of emotional pain.

Babi

I'll be interested to hear comments on this, BaBi.

I had a real problem turning left after going down a slight hill, especially if it was misting rain.

I was involved in a very frightening situation wherein there was a TERRIBLE screeching noise, then my windshield came in on me, and I was pinned inside my VW van at the neck by a cold, wet, rusty heavy chain..

It was pulled over an exit for a car dealership where my van had been for repairs. There was lots of tension - the dealership had lied to me for several hours that "the van is on its way to pick you up." Finally, after hours, I demanded that someone get me, since my baby was out of formula and I had to have transportation.

They got me and I got the van. BUT, no one told me of that chain over the exit from the repair shop!

That incident gave me fits for several years when I was driving. Yet, I couldn't stop driving - a young widow with 4 children can't just stop LIVING!

That caused lots of emotional pain, though.

Ruth Ann

When I was a small child of five my parents house burned down. I was the one who discovered the fire. I was walking up the front path when I saw flames and smoke coming out of the parlour window. Mum was in the back of the house some distance from the seat of the fire. I had nightmares for many years about this event. I am still afraid of having a house fire. My sisters house had a fire last year and was badly damaged ( faulty wiring) I immediately had flashbacks to the fire in our home. I don't think any of the adults in my life ever realised how traumatic that fire was to me. My mother was burned in that fire because she thought my little sister was trapped and she opened the door to a room and flames blew out in her face. Fortunately she was left with no noticable scarring. I can still smell the smoke that was left on the only one of my possessions left from our house fire. A favorite book.

From Carolyn and Ruth's posts it seems that these traumatic events leave an indelible impression on the mind. I know that people may have nightmares for a long time following a traumatic experience. Therapy is often recommended. Has anyone had therapy to help cope with trauma, and did you find it helpful?

My younger daughter had a traumatic event when she was only four. I tried to gently offer her opportunities to talk about it, and watched to see if she was suffering any nightmares, etc. However, she was not interested in talking about it and seemed to have put it out of her mind. I simply don't know. I think I will ask her about it now. After all these years, she should have an understanding of just how she did cope with it.

Babi

Babi I did that all my childhood. It is a coping mechanism, whether it is a good one? I don't know.

I think basically she didn't want to confront the situation so it is buried in her subconscious to be dealt with when she feels she can. Which can be never?

I know myself I don't remember my parents when I was growing up, I can only remember a few instances and they were traumatic for me. At one stage I had thought of hypnotherapy to help me remember however on the first session I became extremely agitated when they took me back to my childhood, so I stopped it.

I came to the conclusion that if it was meant to be, I will remember in my own good time.........in other words let sleeping dogs lie....some things are better left in the past.

Hugs

Peta

Peta, I almost envy your not remembering your parents very much. I remember mine and all the horrendous experiences growing up. But after more than 70 years, neither lethe nor nepenthe come to my rescue.

We simply have to live with what we are

I did talk with Valerie, and found she now has a very good grasp of what followed in the years following her trauma. I immediately saw its similarity to what you just posted, PETA.

Valerie did bury the entire incident deeply. Not that she forgot what happened, she just put it out of sight and mind. Not only that, but the erection of this wall resulted in, as PETA described, in having very few memories of her childhood from five until around twelve years old.

She remembers me and her closest friend. She remembers her brother only as the horrid boy who teased, harassed and tormented her in the manner of brothers immemorial. Her only memory of her father during those years is of major blow-ups that penetrated the barrier she had erected. Her sister, a calm, gentle soul, she does not remember at all from those years.

Then, around twelve, something began to stir under all that repression, and it was anger. She says she seemed to be mad at everybody, and I well remember that time as an extremely difficult one for all of us. The entire family was complaining and asking 'What is the matter with that girl?!! Interestingly enough, it was a dream that gave me a clue to that. Basically, it showed me that I, and the others, were 'what was the matter'..at least in part. Our negative attitudes, our expectation that she would be difficult, had sent things into a downward spiral. I immediately changed my own attitude and laid down the law to the rest of the family. The quick improvement in the situation showed we were on the right track.

Then Valerie discovered roller skating. She would spend hours at the rink, skating in a quiet rhythm around the rink to the sound of the music. It became her therapy, and a genuine healing began there. I knew she had become 'obsessed' with the skating, but I didn't know until she told me all this why it was so important.

Today, she is well and whole, but her interests are generally confined to her family and her many friends and their families. And her pets. She has no interest whatever in world events, politics, etc. She has her circle where she feels loved and safe, and that is sufficient.

Babi

Babi, Valerie was indeed blessed to have you as a Mum. Perhaps I am wrong? But I feel far too many parents these days pursue their own happiness at the expense of their children.

In turn you are ending up with a generation of children and young adults who are.....for want of a better word, aimless. Lacking in social awareness and carrying around 'pain' that they can not identify and expressing it in inappropriate ways.

I relate to what you said with Valerie and her anger. I was a very quick tempered child, of course I now realize I was suppressing many things.

Quite honestly I think that is why I was given Josh, my autistic lad. He taught me not to be judgemental, patience, tolerance and showed me unconditional love does exist.

As for therapy I think mine was Movies and music.......I could lose myself in them for hours. At the end of the day, whatever works is a good thing as far as I'm concerned (mind you as long as it's not destructive )

Peta

PETA, there must be pain, as well, in knowing a beloved child cannot grow as other children can. But I have heard many times of the joy that such children can also bring, whether autistic, with Down's syndrome, or other limitiations. And the 'unconditional love', patience and tolerance are 'grace notes' I hear often.

A further quote from the article on surviving emotional pain: (what do you all think of this?)

People in emotional pain often make three primary errors: (1) they believe that stressful life events are “no big deal,” and if hard times do occur, the pain should go away quickly. (2) They engage in a ruthless attack on their worth as human beings: “I shouldn’t feel this way.” “ I must be crazy.” “There’s something wrong with me.” (3) They compare their pain with that of other people: “It could be worse. Others suffer more.”

Babi

Numbers 2 and 3 are very familiar!!

Babi I think with Josh it comes more under Grief and Loss……it is a continual process of seeing what he is ‘not’ doing, however when he achieves certain things it is a great sense of joy and hope for the future.

With regard to ‘comparing emotional pain’ I usually say to anyone who says “there are others worse off than I” that it is all relative. I guess in them saying this statement they are discounting what they are experiencing? In fact all three points would be doing that.

Accepting that it is very real, to the individual would be a step forward, discounting it would only be detrimental. I think this is when it manifests itself in other areas, one either becomes ill, or physical pains become exacerbated.

What a complex mind we posses.

Hugs

Peta

SOULTWIN, I hope you have come to know that you feel what you feel, and no one can say you shouldn't feel that way. There is nothing wrong with feeling one's own emotions; they exist! And knowing that others suffer also does not change the fact of your own pain.

Our expert says do what you can to comfort yourself. And if you can, find someone who will let you talk about your pain w/o judging.

PETA, that is my understanding, that those who say others are suffering more are trying to discount their own suffering. It is sort of like my grandmother telling me as a child that I should eat something I didn't like, because so many children in the world were going hungry. It is strange how we sometimes think we should dismiss our own pain because others are worse off. Does there have to be a certain monumental degree of pain before one is allowed to do something about it?

Discounting our pain is detrimental. A pain not dealt with remains, causing trouble for years.

This is the end of the month, and generally marks the end of the Curious Minds topics. Let's hold the forum open for one more day, in case there are things anyone else wants to add.

If not, thank you all for a very meaningful and helpful discussion. Every post has been enlightening. You make being DL a genuine pleasure.

Babi

(3) They compare their pain with that of other people: “It could be worse. Others suffer more.”

I am dubious about how widespread, and how relevant #3 may be. My own personal experience, plus ten years of doing volunteer hospice work, lead me to think that many people are convinced, rather the contrary to #3: No one has really suffered the way I am.

I have seen and heard people make the declaration to someone (as in #3), "Oh, I know other people have it worse," and then turn around in a few minutes and remark apropos their interchange:"She/he would never understand how I'm suffering."

There is, I am firmly convinced after all these years, often a certain amount of vanity involved in suffering. After all, despite the pain, the pain is making one the center of attention, an important person. My father died of cancer, and in a few weeks my mother's sister's husband (they lived in the same town) also died of cancer. My mother was enraged at her sister's grief, and she stormed that she didn't know what her sister felt so bad about, her husband hadn't suffered like my father had! My mother was quite obviously furious as the spotlight of the town shifted off of her onto her sister.

I think the article is simplistic. There are so many emotional factors that come to play in situations of loss, injury, illness, etc. that have nothing to do with the immediate situation, but enter into it as the pressure of water will find a weak spot to work through.

One of the most difficult things to accept in life (and perhaps especially in painful situations) is the author's point #8 further on. We are ordinary, we are human. Not only should we cut ourselves some slack, but we better had, because there is no escape from human fate.

Disease, old age, death, etc. are part of the common lot, no one escapes. Unfortunately we created a culture in the latter part of the 20th century, that denies this and sees pain and the resultant suffering as something truly wrong. Everything must be bright, sunny, perfect and all unpleasantness, pain, and imperfection can be erased through purchasing a pill or attending a course in whatever or buying someone's book. This is absurd, and it is a tone in our society that causes a great deal of harm.

kevxu

Oh yes, I've come to know what I feel and have that right! Knowing that others suffer, helps me to understand! My thanks to all.......!!

KEVXU, you are right, of course. Many people 'enjoy' poor health, as it allows them to be demanding of attention and avails as an excuse not to deal witht their resonsibilities. With this sort of 'sufferer', their families are, IMO, the greater sufferers.

I would not say the article is simplistic, exactly, but rather that it can only touch on key points and basics. There are a multitude of books written covering just single aspects of the problem of pain, physical, emotional, and psychological.

You have touched, I think, on a very relevant observation. I have also noted that often people are unwilling to tolerate even minor pain. Too often people will 'pop a pill' rather than deal with the sources of their trouble. The pill will never heal the source, of course, and the root problem will only fester and worsen.

I don't know where this unrealistic viewpoint arose, but it has done this country a disservice, IMO. Anyone else care to comment on this?

You and me both, SOULTWIN. It took a lot of maturing and experience, but I got there. I think most of our posters here can say the same.

Babi

Babi - I would love to enjoy normal health. I would love to have the same amount of energy as others. I really would. I don't really know anyone that wallows in poor health but maybe there are such people.

Carolyn

Thank you, BaBi, for heading this good discussion. I've been dealing with a HUGE headache, so didn't get on the computer - too much light for the old eyes.

Thankfully, it's better.

May everyone find comfort from this discussion and hopefully, we'll all be able to utilize the comments here to help us in our everyday living.

What are you saying?(post 118)

Should man just accept whatever pain stoically and resign himself to the fact that such emotional and physical traumas are to be expected in life especially in the waning years and therefore accepted, ignored, or be born with no complaint?

No, not at all - though a dose Stoicism (note the capital "S," rather stoicism in the causual sense) would do our entire culture a some good.

What I thought was clear was this: "Unfortunately we created a culture in the latter part of the 20th century, that denies this and sees pain and the resultant suffering as something truly wrong."

Everyone will have some pain, and consequently suffering, in his or her life regardless of how lucky they may be. This is inevitable, and if one does not accept that fact, you curse yourself with even more suffering by denying a basic reality of life. The current ethos that life is not good unless it is beautiful, perfect and pain free is rubbish - a total and complete delusion. This is probably why so many people seem wretchedly dissatisfied, even when they do not have major problems.

kevxu

CAROLYN, I totally relate to what you are saying, and I (and no doubt everyone here) would love to 'enjoy' normal health. I have known of people who used their health problems (even, sometimes, pretended ones) in a selfish and demanding way.

RUTH ANN, I do hope you find relief for that headache quickly.

KEVXU, I think your closing paragraph is an excellent summation of the realities, and neccesity, of pain. I'm so glad you joined us before we closed out.

EVERYONE: If you have any last comments, please make them. I am delighted this subject brought out so many excellent contributors. Fortunately, the next topic doesn't begin until mid-month so we don't absolutely have to chop off, but I don't want to overstay our welcome.

Babi

When it is unbearable and keep making complaints to the medical profession until someone listens.

Guess I am lucky in handling pain--I have heard that people with blue eyes have a higher pain threshold.

Some pain is welcome, it tells me I am still among the living.

BABI: Only one last commnent. Earlier, you did a nice job of summing up the comments that had been made to that point. If you have time, it would be nice to have another summary like that for the entire session. Your summaries are excellent and help a lot.

Thanks for leading this discussion.

Babi - Thank you for leading this interesting discussion. I would like to suggest that maybe it could be permanently placed in the Health Matters folder as an ongoing discussion? It is certainly a neverending issue for many of us. It would give us a place to vent, when things really get rough. Also a place to ask opinions about medications, or discuss other ways to alleviate pain.

BABI: Curious Minds does not have a new topic until September. It is "on leave" for July and August. It has been that way as long as I can remember.

When people have made their last comments, this topic can be continued in the Health Matters folder in the Back Problems and Pain discussion and/or the Grief discussion.

MARJORIE, thank you for your prompt response to Marilynne's suggestion. Pain is certainly a subject of on-going interest, and HEALTH MATTERS is the appropriate place for it.

HAPPY BILL, I thank you for the compliment. So much has been said on the subject here, a summary of the entire session would be rather long. Let me review again the posts since the last summary, and see if I can come up with a coherent summary of the remaining material.

RAY, I had never heard that about a higher pain threshold in blue-eyed people. I have had a fairly high pain threshold, and my eyes are basically green, with blue shadings in one and brown shadings in the other. I don't know what you would call that. Maybe we can put it to a quick, small sample test.

POSTERS: Do you have a high pain threshold? Are your eyes blue? Are they some other light color? Or are they dark?

Babi

I think the idea of this being a regular discussion group is a great idea, but why not in its own discussion topic? That is, I don't quite get why "Back Problems and Pain" are linked together. They often are, but as we have discussed here, pain comes from many sources and in many forms. If I were looking for a discussion on pain, I would look under "P." It would NEVER occur to me to look under "B."

MARJORIE, what do you think? Songbird has a point there. ...Babi

I think it should be "Pain & Suggestions for Handling it".

I think the idea to put pain as a sub category on health is a good one- so not sure if it makes any difference but the idea has my vote!

I thought the posts on this discussion were insightful and brave.

There is a discussion called Suggestions for SeniorNet that would be a good place to mention a request for the type of discussion you are all suggestion. I can not make a decision like that. Anyone can go there and mention this and I will post a link there to MARILYNE's original post on this topic.

I was listening to some music today and heard some words that reminded me of this discussion. This is the last part of the song made famous by Garth Brooks ("The Dance"):

And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance

Yes my life is better left to chance
I could have missed the pain but I'd of had to miss the dance

Interesting concept.

Thank you, MARJORIE. I'll follow your link over there and pass on the suggestion.

I like that quote from 'The Dance', SONGBIRD. I miss being able to understand words being sung; so many lyrics are really beautiful and fine poetry.

I thought the posts on this discussion were insightful and brave.

Me, too, YiYiLin

I'll make the suggestion that the subject of Pain be continued in the Health Matters forum. My thanks to you all. I think this Curious Minds segment is ready to close.

BABI

This discussion is READ ONLY.

CURIOUS MINDS will resume in September.