Therapuetic cloning or parthenogenesis, whatever one might name it, is evidently a scary topic to many people and certainly does give one pause. But when I read about the diseases that might be cured when this technique is perfected, I become hopeful for two of my friends who have" macular degeneration"and which is genetic(one lady's 5 siblings had it.) And for heart patients like my husband, who has only 17% of heart function, and Chrisopher Reeves who just might get to walk again along with many others who are now living on breathing machines and in wheel chairs.!! And the diabetics who might get a new pancreas which has been "cloned" from their own DNA. I look at Mattie Stepanik, the little boy who is fighting for his life daily because of musular dystrophy while his brain and heart continue to produce meaningful poetry and other writings. So, I become emotional about the whole subject. But I am reading other articles that are offered with this item and hope to understand it better. I hope you will,too. Also, may I suggest that we all read the letters to Scientific American about this subject; such different reactions. Europe's Reaction to Cloning by ACT

This what excites me so much and why I wish the press would quit calling it "cloning" which gives rise to the worry of "cloned people".

I,too, am in favor of "cloning" or "parthenogenisis" from the person who is to benefit. I can't even touch on all the topics that arise here and in the general public when this subject is discussed. I am still excited with the premise as it applies to patients like Betty Gregory. It can become a very emotional subject and the scientists have a long way to go. If you listened to the radio interview, you will notice that the scientist's worry is that ACT has given the "real cloners" another direction to attempt in the cloning of people. Very interesting is the essay in "Flesh of My Flesh" titled, "Don't Worry: A Brain Still Can't Be Cloned" by George Johnson. This was written long ago, IN THE EARLY 90's!! I will see if I can find it and put a URL to it.

Well, I went looking for the article which I could not find printed on the net. But I came across an interview with a scientist whom, if you can belive the reporter who interviewed the scientist, I consider a complete "NUT" SCARY!!! Mad Scientist? Just knowing that people like him exist makes me want to discourage any cloning with huge billboard signs and demonstrations.

Here is another URL that leads to a very informational site that takes no sides in this issue. CloningInfoSite

Viogert, if this is a proven fact, do we need men at all? Has a woman reproduce without androgens being introduced? If she is pregnant, how did she get that stage? What excited her egg to become inpregnated? Didn't the egg need the sperm for reproducing a human?

I heard something similar to what Viogert is referring from my daughter a few years ago. I will ask her if she remembers where her info came from and if it has been proven.

Unfortunately, the money involved becomes the primary goal. Once again, we don't have pure science but greed.

Again, I ask, viogert and FaithP, how would the egg be stimulated? Did I understand you to say by her own hormones, Faith? Then she can't produce a boy because she has no adrogens from the sperm? I thought women had some adrogens? Is that right? I feel like I am in a class here! Is there a test later? Just being humerous, y'all.

IMHO, my own questions above are not beginning to touch on the depth of this topic. But, all of you posters are!! I don't think I will be separating "parthenogenisis" from "cloning" from therapeutic cellular transfer" from "nuclear transplantation", anytime in the near future.

So far, the concensus is very mixed. I myself am drawing back from my initial excitement and trying to read more about the whole subject especially concerning the ethics involved plus the power. Just this morning, I heard about one company wanting ownership of the stem cells that were produced at Geron from embryo material provided by that company. This is becoming so involved as "parman" told us it would. I consider it a scary project but hope that somehow we can discover a way to use our own stem cells(made from our own DNA) for treating a disease we have. I do understand Betty Gregory's excitement of possibility of a cure for her and her family.

š jane›

"As we go forward, I hope we will always be guided by... both our capabilities and our conscience."

š jane›

"architecture since 1925 has become more "international" and has gotten away from its regional and traditional roots.

Communications technology and transportation allows us to see what is happening all over the world and to imitate things that are not really appropriate. Technology is used to sweep away the differences among regions and styles, causing more energy consumption and material flows that would have been necessary with locally adapted building materials and construction methods. Societies have been changing and so do standard building practices."

proposed transit improvements, including a light rail line in the principal commuting corridor, reduced highway travel needs only slightly, even under supportive land use assumptions;

Maryland Public Interest Research Group found a "magnet effect" as well as a "ripple effect" whereby new highway construction not only attracted new development, but that this effect became more pronounced as distance from an urban area increased

In addition to infrastructure investments, cities, states and communities across America spend billions of dollars to attract corporations to their areas. These relocations are often a contributor to sprawl.

Another key smart-growth solution that has proven very effective is the use of greenbelts.

The state of Oregon is the best example of this policy. Oregon adopted several statewide planning statutes in 1973, including one requiring the adoption of plans which zone for affordable housing within urban growth boundaries and the creation of protective zones outside of them. The plan has meant the protection of 25 million acres worth of farm and forest lands. It has also allowed Portland's population to grow by 50 percent since the 1970s while its land area increased by a mere 2 percent.

Turn of the century, Simon Benson, a teetotaling lumber baron, installed 20 drinking water fountains in the city to give his thirsty workers an alternative to beer.

1960s and 1970s, Portland region almost doubled in size from 656,000 to 1,030,000. - growth led to extensive low-density suburban development and heavy dependence on the automobile.

In Oregon 1980s, - vehicle miles traveled increased four times faster than the population. 1989 and 1993, an estimated 41,000 cars were added to the Portland metropolitan region's highways during rush hour.

I live about 8 miles from the Pacific Coast. In a small town. Even here there has been some activity. When I first moved to this area, some 10 years ago, I would see Deer walking down the road, or jumping a fence to eat Apple off our neighbor's tree. Now, much of the forest has been cut for new Homes.

The Developer was smart in a way, he offered lots and would build to specification. He razed an awful lot of trees to mark out the lots.

He was fooled: we have one ally here, RAIN, lots of it. Try anywhere from 80 to 130 inches a year. If one hasn't lived in the state most of one's life, that much rain can drive one nuts.

So far, the developer has sold about a third of the lots and the houses he has built have changed hands any number of times.

still, "Progress," It will take a lot of time, but eventually, this area will be under concrete and all of the tree's but a few will be gone. Hopefully, so will I.

I can remember this state when one could drive for miles and miles and see nothing but forest. Gone.

Tiger Tom

If I remember correctly, during the Regan (Reagan?) administration there was a movement that wanted to plant tree in abandoned lots and other places that were not being used which were barren. President Regan said he would have the "Army" out after them if they tried that. He seemed to believe that all of the abandoned lots and whatever were private proprty and they could not be touched even to add a little greenery to thelandscape. So, I wonder what will happen to those people in Brighton? BTW, I was once in Brighton, I believe it sits by the sea.

Tiger Tom

• Google web Directory of Master Gardener Programs in the United States.
  
  
• Master Gardener Training Dallas County Extension Agent -- Horticulture (The next class begins Monday, August 5, 2002)
  
  
• Look they even have Master Gardeners for Kids Junior Master Gardeners in Texas
  
  
• Do not know if this is your area or not tigerlily but here is Florida, where the program began in 1979, there are now over 35 counties with active Master Gardeners.
  
  
• Very business like site but then, I bet that is the New York mark of excellance New York Botanical Garden Continuing Education,
  
  
• The Master Gardener program originated in Washington State in the early 1970s, to enable the Washington State University (WSU) Cooperative Extension to better serve the public-- specifically home gardeners.
  
  
• University of Connecticut Cooperative Extension Home & Garden Education Center offers an Advanced Master Gardener program - The program requires you to accrue 20 hours of class time, with a volunteer commitment of two hours of outreach for every hour of class time taken (to be accomplished over a 3-year period)
  
  
• And these folks just have a nice web site Master Gardener's Association in Wichita Texas: The Texas Master Gardener Program

This year‚ World Economic Forum 25-30 January, New York City overall theme "Leadership in Fragile Times: A Vision for a Shared Future" is complemented by six core themes.

• Theme: Advancing Security and Addressing Vulnerability
• Theme: Redefining Business Challenges
• Theme: Reducing Poverty and Improving Equity
• Theme: Re-evaluating Leadership and Governance
• Theme: Restoring Sustained Growth
• Theme: Sharing Values and Respecting Differences

Would you like to make your views known to the political and business leaders from all over the world meeting in Davos? Would you like to praise them or blame them?

hellomrpresident - the interactive installation from Swissinfo (in English) - makes it possible for you to send a message to Davos for the duration of the World Economic Forum's annual conference (January 25-29).

The conference "The Public Eye on Davos" in New York is open and free to the public and representatives of the media; features discussions between representatives from both northern and southern countries on the negative impacts of a globalization that only represents economic interests, and the social and environmental development alternatives.

Where is the World Economic Forum coming from? Looks like the US has the largest representation.

Forum on Economic Freedom among the discussions is Battling Corruption Corruption in Serbia

The wind, too, scattered seeds. As the water reappeared, so there reappeared willows, rushes, meadows, gardens, flowers, and a certain purpose in being alive. But the transformation took place so gradually that it became part of the pattern without causing any astonishment.

Environmenntal damage is often gradual
and not easily apparent,
and
by the time we become aware of it,
it is generally too late.

Faith leads you to a higher state of existence, whereas
reason and analysis lead you to full liberation.

I believe that economic advancement and respect
for individual rights are closely linked. A society
cannot fully maximise its economic advantage without
granting its people individual civil and political rights.

For a long time we (Tibetans) gave a lot of
attention to religious affairs and neglected political
affairs. Now we have to review and examine our
past mistakes, and learn not to make them again.

š jane›

š jane›

š jane›

Check out this article at http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0203/trilling.php

Bushido—The Way of Oil by Roger Trilling America Goes Into the Energy Business With the Former Evil Empire

Good topic, Annafair!!

š jane›

The link that Pat has posted is an excellent starting place.  The # 1 consideration (IMHO) is this statement:
"However, a good place to begin involves empowering seniors with the knowledge and skills to make healthy decisions."
We are all responsible for our own health!!!
We each need to be as well informed and inquisitive as we can.  Folks , especially seniors, have a tendency to believe physicians "sit at the right hand of God."  I mean no disrespect but they are only mortal,  such as ourselves.
Many are overworked, under managed and over zealous.  Patients AND physicians alike tend to believe a "pill" is the panacea to any health concern.  Patients, believing that a pill is the cure all  become angry and guarded if a doctor refuses to give them an antibiotic for a viral infection.   EDUCATION and information is the answer and it is our responsibility as the patient to be as enlightened as we can be.
Physicians on the other hand have a committment to their patients and should act accordingly.  That is not always the case, particularly since the introduction of HMOs and PPOs.  The patient is often slighted and ignored as being knowledgable.  I call it "drive thru doctoring."

The issue of "anti aging" is an appealing one  as the doctor/patient relationship is the least satisfying many times.  There is a huge industry out there with ideas, products and "preventatives and/or alternatives."

Off my soap box I shall come as I could beat this dead horse forever.

š jane›

losalbern:  You are absolutely right in your statement about retirement of physicians (as well as nurses.)  It is a terrible burden and difficult to explain to people without frightening them.

š jane›

Text of article removed by Host per SeniorNet Internet Citation procedure. Email marcie@seniornet.org with any questions.

š jane›

Fortunately not all physicians are so callous but how does one always know before surgery?

š jane›

š jane›

š jane›

)

My parents and grand parents were big on Vicks. When I had a cough or cold as a youngster out would come the Vicks. It would be smeared on my chest and covered with a warmed flannel. This would be followed by a table spoon of Milk of Magnesia. I hated Vicks with a passion and to this day, I don’t keep Vicks in the house. I had a cousin who, when visited with a cold, would place a small amount of Vicks up each nostril, claimed it helped open the sinuses. Maybe so.

Bill H

My doctor recommended the vitamin Folic Acid 400 to help keep the arteries clean and, as one other poster mentioned, he also recommended taking 81 mg strength of aspirin daily

Howzat, the same article appeared in one of the Pittsburgh newspapers yesterday, about the chickens.

š jane›

Bill H

By the way Nellie, you do fine work with your camera. Did you study photography?

š jane›

It began in December with a teacher's finding that 28 of 118 Piper High sophomores had stolen sections of their botany project off the Internet. The students received zeroes and faced failing the semester. But after parents complained to the school board, the teacher was ordered to raise the grades, prompting her resignation.

  Now, the community is angrily pointing fingers as they debate right and wrong, crimes and consequences, citizenship and democracy.

Perhaps it is the parents who should take those courses in Situation Ethics.

Pat

If someone had asked me "Why do we have to know this ?", I would have answered without hesitation "Because knowledge is power" and probably have mentioned responsibility and mental discipline (perhaps idealism) in the bargain, too.

Like Jane I believe in the need for a basic "core" of knowledge; a fine term, Jane ! It is all well and good to let the "kids" further explore subjects in which they are interested (the operative word is FURTHER), but not to the exclusion of required subjects (yes, THAT same old word).

I disagree with several of the views expressed in the referenced article and will explain another time.

Women have returned to the work force in large numbers (many of them had no other choice); none make as much money as a man does in a similar job. Many are single mothers. The discrepancy between the rich and the poor is ever widening.

True, the proverbial glass ceiling has been cracked by some successful women, but they still are more the exception than the rule. What is most lamentable is the decline in moral and ethical values, as Patrick indicated. (The NYT Sunday Magazine carries a regular column by an ethicist - it is amazing what questions come up there !!! Check it out some time.) Clearly, as a society we worship at the altar of money, which of course is the source of unlimited power, political and otherwise. Money is the only gauge for the measure of a man or woman. For my part, I find that infinitely sad.

My son and his wife are teachers and have been for years. He is an idealist, but sorely tried-- by uncooperative and, perversely, demanding parents who do not come to parent/teachers conferences, and by unresponsive students who refuse to be motivated. Some of them seriously believe 60 is a good grade ! Everyone talks of rights, no one wants to hear about responsibilities. But then - not all parents are role models -------

š jane›

š jane›

Pat, a wonderful thought If only we could there would be no need to fight a war against terrorism, stacking of nuclear weapons of distruction, security at airports, etc.

One of the greatest commandments and the hardest to keep is “Love thy neighbor....” I’m sure God didn’t know some of my neighbors )

Viogert, you spoke of being "taught music," when I was in grade school oh so many years ago, music was a required subject. Is it no longer equired?

Bill H

In January of 1964 I fell from a high antenna tower, hit a roof on the way down, at the 30 foot level, and continued on to the ground, breaking my back, both wrists, several ribs, my pelvis and my pride.

  I spent the next 6 months recouperating in the hospital, undergoing much surgery.

Two weeks after I fell, my wife came into the same hospital and at the age of 44, gave birth to our son, who turned out to be a Downs Syndrome child.

Because of all the trauma she suffered at this time, my wife had a nervous breakdown, went into a very serious depression, was committed to a mental institution, and never recovered sufficiently to return home.

After I recovered from my injuries, I tried to find professional help for my son, but was told by all the professionals that I should institutionalize him, and forget that I ever had him.

After much searching, I was able to find other parents who had handicapped children confined at home, and who were willing to start a pilot program and participate in teaching simple skills to these children in a sheltered work shop, with their handicapped peers as friends and companions.

The simple skills consisted of teaching them to tell time, make change, and carry on a conversation and react and socialize with one another and other people.

I noticed that most of the children had some speech defects, could not pronounce certain words or stuttered, and had much difficulty expressing themselves to us, their parents and each other.

About this time, in 1964, I noticed an article in the newspaper that stated that our county Teacher's College was hiring a speech pathologist, of Japanese descent, by the name of Patricia Gengo to teach Speech Pathology.

I went to the college and after explaining to her the situation we were in with speech difficulties in the work shop, I asked Patricia if she could help us out by showing us how to improve the speach of these handicapped children.

She told me that if I could get volunteers to work with each individual child she would instruct that volunteer how to correct the particular speech impediment that each child had, and they would have to continue the instructions repeatedly, and work with the parents as well as the children.

I went to the local seminary college that I had once attended and asked the Rector for volunteers, and although he was very reluctant and , he allowed me to ask the assembled students for volunteers and 20 raised their hands and became tutors to these handicapped children.

When this news got out, other parents of handicapped children, some of whom had been hiding these children, brought their children to the work shop to take advantage of the better communicaton skills their child would receive.

At this time there were so many handicapped children "coming out of hiding" that the state offered to subsidize the program.

The program was started with 12 children originally, and now has over 300 handicapped children being bussed daily in the county to programs and workshops running in five locations by the NYSARC.

Some of these children have been taken out of Institutions and now live in one of our many group homes with caring house parents and handicapped children like themselves

I have a prison ministry, worked in both American and Canadian prisons was able to help coordinate a Special Olympics Program in Collins Bay Penitentiary, in Kingston, Ontario, Canada,which is on national television annually,and our local county children participate.

The prisoners who participate are from minimum security and are carefully selected to act as instucters to the handicapped children who come from many American and Canadian area.

The children are housed and sleep at the Barracks at Fort Henry in Kingston and are provided with their Olympic Uniforms and prizes by money raised by the prisoners.

Last year the inmates raised $18,000 for the handicapped participants.

Pat

IMHO-This should be a parent's desire for all our children regardless of theirr IQs, handicaps or circumstances.

My son Jamie is afflicted with Down's Syndrome and I was told by the professionals that he would never be self-sufficient.

I don't think Jamie knows anything exists outside the world of his work shop, daily rituals and weekend field trips or family visits. He doesn't know what it means to be discontent, and he radiates God's unconditional love continually.

Jamie's life is simple. He will never know the entanglements of wealth or power, and he does not care what brand of clothing he wears or what kind of food he eats. He recognizes no differences in people, treating each person as an equal and a friend.

  Jamie.s needs have always been met, and he never worries that one day they may not be. His hands are diligent. Jamie is never so happy as when he is working   at his workshop or interacting with the other members.

But when his tasks are done, Jamie knows how to relax. He is not obsessed with his work or the work of others. His heart is pure, and he is not judgemental.

He still believes everyone tells the truth, promises must be kept, and when you are wrong, you apologize instead of argue.

  Free from pride and unconcerned with appearances, Jamie is not afraid to cry when he is hurt, angry or sorry.

He is always transparent, always sincere. And he trusts God. Not confined by intellectual reasoning, when he comes to God, he comes as a child. Jamie seems to know God-to really be friends with Him in a way that is difficult for an "educated" person to grasp. God seems like his closest companion. In my moments of doubt and frustrations with my own beliefs.

  I envy the security Jamie has in his simple faith. It is then that I am most willing to admit that he has some divine knowledge that rises above my mortal questions. It is then I realize that perhaps he is not the one with the handicap-I am.

My obligations, my fear, my pride, my circumstances-they all become disabilities when I do not submit them to God.

  Who knows if Jamie comprehends things I can never learn? After all, he has spent his whole life in that kind of sublime innocence, radiating unconditionally the goodness and love of his Creator.

And one day, after our mortal existence, when the mysteries of heaven are opened, we will all be amazed at how close God really is to our hearts.

  I will then realize that God heard the simple prayers of a father who believed that when God gave him Jamie, the little boy with Down's Syndrome, he gave him a great gift, along with all the heart aches and tribulations, that created an intimacy with the God who made them both.

Jamie won't be surprised at all.

I suppose there should be a positive correlation between intelligence and curiosity? Just wondering.

http://www.ascd.org/cgi-bin/AT-ASCDWebsearch.cgi?trace=a&search=brain%20based%20education

One thing I have been doing is using lamps in the classroom to soften the harshness of the flourescent lights. The parents seemed pleased and feel it looks more homey instead of institutional. Another thing they suggest is to get away from the hot colors such as red and yellow. I have toned down somewhat, but I do like the "fun" colors and feel it makes us more enthusiastic. Just my own opinion.

Linda

Let's see if I understand how the world works lately... If a man cuts his finger off while slicing salami at work, he blames the restaurant.

If a customer orders a hot cup of coffee at a drive in restaurant, and then spills it in her lap while driving along the highway, she sues the restaurant. If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer, your family blames the tobacco company.

If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, he blames the bartender.

If your grandchildren are brats, without manners, you blame television.

If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun manufacturer.

And if a crazed person breaks into the cockpit and tries to kill the pilot at 35,000 feet, and the passengers kill him instead, the mother of the deceased blames the airline.

I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore.

  So, if I die while my old, wrinkled butt is parked in front of this computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates...okay?

"Teachers open the door, but you must enter by yourself." -Chinese Proverb

"No one has yet realized the wealth of sympathy, the kindness and generosity hidden in the soul of a child. The effort of every true education should be to unlock that treasure." -Emma Goldman.

Bill H

This seems to be a site for experienced educators, which I am not.

I think kids either develop self-confidence by the time they're 10 (perhaps far earlier) or they're unlikely to develop it at all. Pardon the intrusion.

While I don't watch much TV either here, or when I am abroad, I do like the fact that in Switzerland I have access to French, Italian and Spanish stations - and that is a treat for me. In 1994 I took my son and his wife to Europe so DIL could meet the relatives. I remember they watched the O.J. chase of the white Bronco on CNN International in a hotel in Baden, a spa resort near Zurich.

During my last visit in Europe I visited with a dear cousin who is a devoted fan of the German version of WHEEL OF FORTUNE. Well, I was the guest and, for the duration of my stay, I sat through the hour-long programs with her. While there were fewer commercial interruptions, I found the sheer number of consecutive commercial breaks staggering; I counted as many as 21 (!!!) before the show continued ! Thank Heaven for books !

Nellie, Dutch is one of the languages I learned in childhood, the first 10 years of which were spent in a town on the Niederrhein, on the other side of the border Holland shared with Germany. I remember at least one summer in Scheveningen and my mother, relaxing for once, in a "Strandkorb" on the beach protected from the winds coming from the North Sea.

When I attended the U. of Heidelberg- the oldest university in Germany (1386), I took non-credit courses in Dutch, simply for the fun of it and since the fee was nominal. I found them easy and familiar. Then I boldly presented myself for a formal examination, which was not "done" at the time. Well, I passed and have the certificate to prove it.

I'd like to express my gratitude to you for your wonderful guidance in this segment of The Curious Mind.

Bill H

Pat, thank you for creating that great heading.

Bill H

FrancyLou, when your great uncle “visited” you were you frightened by his apparition? Did he appear in body form or was it a thought message? I have had experiences, but I’ve never actually seen any deceased family member or friends and I often wonder, if they did “visit’ me, what form they would take

Annafair, how do feel about your ESP “ are you happy to be “gifted” or would you rather not have it. Please tell us more about this it’s so interesting. There have been times when I knew exactly what a TV commentator was going to say. Do you think that’s a form of ESP?

Jims Garbo, may I call you Marlene, that was a horrible death your grand-daughter’s dad met with.. I belive someone was trying to get through to you both with the record player and the shopping experience. Maybe someone here can explain the record playing incident.

glor, Maybe some day your mother may be able to leave you a message letting you know everything is OK.

Faithr, hearing that music box play your mom’s tune gives me pause for thought. Marlene had a similar experience with a record player.

Bill H

Let me tell you about it. After dad died, mom sold her place and we went to live in my maternal grandmother’s house, a very large house. I still remember how wonderfully decorated it would be during the holiday season, but that’s another story. The house had both a front and back staircase. I mention the back staircase because it plays a prominent roll in my story. My grandmother had another widowed daughter who was also living with her. My aunt was a wonderful and kind person, but a bit over weight. I mention this over weight business for a reason. Unfortunately my aunt died in her early fifties while she was still living with grandmother. Not long after my aunt died, my cousin, who worked the late shift and who never got home before midnight, claimed he heard heavy foot steps coming down the backstairs while he was sitting and reading in the living-room late one night, but no one appeared. He called out, no one answered. He went through the five downstairs’ rooms including the kitchen which led to the back staircase entrance. No one was there. Next morning he told us of his experience and asked if any of us had come down the stairs late last night. None of us had, at the time he mentioned. we were all asleep.

Shortly after my cousin’s experience, another family member claimed to have heard the heavy foot steps coming down the same stairs, but again, nobody was there. This was the last time anyone mentioned it, at least in my presence I never heard the foot steps, perhaps who ever it was didn’t want to frighten a child.

Later I'll tell of a "sighting and a "calling" I had.

Bill H

There are many strange phenomena for which there is no logical explanation, none stranger for me than my experience with automatic writing.

Mal, once in a while I can pick up a person’s mood in a discussion. I’m not going to mention any particular discussion, but I could detect a feeling of depression in one man’s posts even though he never mentioned it himself.

Welcome, Nanabet. Much like you, when I start thinking of someone and it persists, I usually hear from them or I hear something about them. Does this sort of thing happen to any more of you.

Anna, I am of Irish ancestry also, and my mother’s sisters and brothers had premonitions such as you just described. Most times their premonitions would be realized. Although I don’t think these were as strong as yours. You seem to be very gifted in the paranormal.

Welcome, Harper. When the young man seen the patient standing in the door, was the patient’s physical body in the hospital bed.? What happened to this young guy did he survive?

Welcome, Suzz. You told us you are prone to prophetic dreams and premonitions, would you be kind enough to share some of them with us. I’m sure we would all like to hear them I know I would.

BaBi, glad you joined us. That was a remarkable experience your grandmother had. I’m sure her son wanted to visit with her one more time before leaving. Please let us hear your other experiences. Yes, BaBi, it was me that said about commentators. I have had thoughts just pop into my mind about people or places and then I’ll read or hear something about these ideas in a short time.

Bill H

Suzz, After you wake, do you remember the dreams clearly enough to talk about them with your mother or some other close relative. The night after having one of these dreams do you sleep well. What I mean is, do you have these kind of dreams on two successive nights.

i'm amazed at the ESP some of the readers have.

Bill H

To come to the point : you may recall that in the mid- to late sixties, "new age" books began appearing on the shelves of bookstores and libraries (after all, the Age of Aquarius !), dealing with elemental questions about the meaning of one's existence, etc. And I began to read. There had to be an explanation for the strange telepathic experiences and prophetic dreams I had.

Of greatest personal help to me were the books by Ruth Montgomery, a noted reporter and author of more than a half dozen books (I own 7 but there may have been more).

At the time she lived in the Washington area and my family was in suburban Virginia. I saw her on TV one fine day talking about her (then) latest book titled A Search for the Truth (1967).

Whatever I did at the time, I dropped everything, drove to the nearest Shopping Center (they were not called 'malls' at the time) and bought the book. Devoured the contents, especially Chapter 3, The Pencil Writes.

Automatic writing, I thought ---I read with care and attention. I tried to duplicate what was said. I tried to clear my mind, set aside the time when the house would be quiet and phone interruptions unlikely. I tried. For several nights. Can't remember how many. Several ball point and a legal pad at the ready.

My eyes were half closed in concentration when it happened - on the third or fourth night. The pencil began wildly, exuberantly making huge figure eights--- all without any activity on my part and certainly without my volition. Ruth Montgomery has described precisely that experienceon on pg. 52 of A Search for The Truth.

But I was too stunned to go on and stopped for the night.

More later

nanabet, you mentioned Sylvia Browne is she the medium Larry King had on his program a number of times. I was trying to remember her name perhaps you read my mind. ) If this is Sylvia Browne, then I have seen her on his show two or three times.

Mountain-Gal, that was quite an experience you had while in the water and near drowning. I commend you for handling it quite so calmly. Did any deceased gentlemen relatives have a dog.?

Traude, your explanation of the powerful concentration you did, which eventually led to the automatic writing, makes me wonder if this is what takes to contact the “other” side.

Anna, I didn’t know of your hearing impairment. I understand your appreciation of a place such as SeniorNet which enables you to express and convey your thoughts and you do this so eloquently.

Welcome, parman, I’m so glad you joined in. Wow. What an experience you had. That’s a powerful post you gave us I’m at loss for words. I can’t even imagine the emotions you felt. Thank you so much for sharing that wonderful happening with us,and, please, do tell us of these others. Can't wait to hear about them.

Bill H

I still don’t know. Let me begin by telling you my wife died several years ago on a New Years Eve. The following March and a few days before my birthday I entered the house and went into the living-room. There on the coffee table sat a beautiful ceramic floral basket (I use ceramic for the want of a better word). The basket and the handle that looped over it from side to side were both of a light beige color. The ceramic flowers inside the basket were most beautiful. The light beige handle reminded me somewhat of my wife’s hair. I suppose a woman could describe this shade of blonde better than I.

I had never seen this object before any where in the house. I don’t know how it got there. I didn’t put it there and it wasn’t there before I left that day. Naturally I walked over and looked at closely and the floral display seemed even more beautiful on closer inspection. The odd part was I never touched it. I examined it with my hands behind my back. I don’t understand why I just didn’t pick it up and look it all over even more close, but I didn’t. I should say here that it wasn’t translucent.

I had some paper work I had to read and I chose to read these papers in the living-room. Every so often I would look up from my work and see the floral basket sitting on the coffee table. It seemed like it was keeping me company while I did my paper work.

After about forty minutes or so, I finished my reading and went into the kitchen, when I came back into the living-room it was still there. I had to leave the house again. When I returned it was gone. I lived alone and to this day I don’t know how it got into or out of the house.

Soon after I told some friends about this floral basket and they seemed to think it was a vision. I never related this story again until now. Perhaps it was my wife’s way of letting me know every thing was OK.

Bill H

On the morning of my wife’s funeral her casket was placed lengthwise across the front of the altar. The priest was to the left of it giving the eulogy. There were many flower baskets surrounding her coffin, mine was placed in the center on the floor by itself. Suddenly a beam of sunlight shone through the beautiful windows and this beam of light fell only on the flower basket that bore the name “Bill.”

Bill H

Suzz, did you ever use the Ouija board again.

Bill H

Bill H

Bill H

Bill H

There are other phenomena, such as out-of-body experiences, and also near-death experiences as reported by people who were about to cross over but came back. There are reliable reports documented e.g. by Dr. Elizabeth Kübler Ross, a Swiss-born psychiatrist who wrote On Death and Dying (1969) . Her research on Life after Life was similar to that of Dr. Raymond Moody, a Georgia physician who independently compiled similar case studies of revived "dead" persons in a bestselling book for which Dr. Ross wrote the introduction.

And yes, I believe the (repeated) appearance of an unusual light, or of a strange object (like the flowers), can be a manifestation of loved ones who passed over. All these and other phenomena, like levitation (the raising of objects by supernatural means), are forms of extrasensory perception.

Suzz, yes, automatic writing can be compared to some extent with the Ouiji board. BTW, I returned to the automatic writing twice more. The sessions always began with the pen merrily dancing in figure eights on a legal pad. Then people came through, first an aunt, and then my father. It was moving, haunting, electrifying and terrifying, all at the same time.

When I showed the papers to my husband, he looked at the different handwriting, some of it hardly legible, and shook his head, clearly uncomfortable. But so was I. It seemed as if I were told not to continue. I never did. The papers are still here.

Mal has mentioned séances and table rapping. My much older sister was keenly interested in the supernatural and became quite expert at cartomancy (but unwilling to read the cards for me. which was fine but made me wonder ---). Years ago she had a group of friends over one afternoon, drew the jalousies and the drapes and we all sat around the table in the darkness. I was allowed to be there too, I couldn't have been more than 5 or 6. Someone told us to put our hands on the table lightly and to touch the neighbor's. After a while there was loud knocking from the bottom of the table; some one shrieked, someone else got the light switch, the girls scattered and it was all over. Nothing like that ever happened again.

I dwelled for a while on your explanation of an object being the manifestation of a deceased loved one, but why do you think I never touched the floral basket? It would seem the natural thing to do. Wasn’t I supposed to do this.

Traude, two questions: Why do you think you were being told not to continue on with the automatic writing, and do you think this ability arose from the seances you attended when you were 5 or 6 years old?

By the way have any of you had an out of body experience or heard of someone close to you experience one?

Bill H

Bill H

Regarding your questions, Bill : I experienced only one séance = the one described; no similar occasion presented itself, nor did I go in search of one. Still, for years I had premonitions and forewarnings that came true but were disturbing because there was no logical explanation for them.

Decades later I started delving into parapsychology and the ESP research of Dr. J.B. Rhine, who is unquestionably the leading figure in the field. Then I learned about Edgar Cayce, "the Sleeping Clairvoyant", also called "The Sleeping Prophet", who delivered his astonishingly precise readings while he was asleep. In the early seventies I had the opportunity to hear a lecture by his son, Hugh Lynn Cacey, then the head of the Edgar Cacye Foundation and its affiliated associations, headquartered at Virginia Beach, Virginia. Hugh Lynn Casey freely voiced his misgivings about automatic writing because of the danger of possible "spirit possession".

I read as many books as I could lay my hands on, not only Ruth Montgomery, but also Dick Sutphen (Unseen Influences , 1982); the autobiography (in collaboration with Margueritte Harmon Bro) of the famous medium Arthur Ford (Nothing so Strange) 1958; -- the 1968 edition has an intro. by Hugh Lynn Cacey --; the Signet Handbook of Parapsychology 1978 edited by Martin Ebon--- and many more that I can't all list here.

After my automatic writing sessions I was emotionally drained and somehow had the distinct feeling that I should leave well enough alone. I did. But I continued reading up on hypnosis, regression, reincarnation, and about Bridie Murphy (who may have been a fraud, it was later suggested).

Traude, I do enjoy reading your posts. Sounds like you really explored this subject. and you are supplying the readers with study material, if they wish to read more about it. I can well understand you not wanting to continue with automatic writing. I certainly would not want to be possessed by anything, freighting. So if a person is really going to go into this sort of paranormal, they should be aware of all the dangers.

I have only read a few books on this subject and they are: A Gift of Prophecy by Jeane Dixon, Life After Life, by Raymond A Moody, Jr., MD and Life is Forever by Susy Smith. I believe the last one deals mostly with out of body experiences.

Was anyone able to use the link I posted in post #459, If not, I can put the URL here and all you have to do is copy and paste it in the address bar. I don't think you have to copy and paste it. I just clicked it and was taken right to it.

http://paranormal.about.com/library/blstories02.htm?PM=ss12_paranormal

Bill H

Bill H

Dapphne, you told us that this is the beginning of your tales. I do hope you tell us more.

Bill H

nanabet, I have never experienced what you wrote about, but maybe some of the others have.

Faithr, did you ever think about getting Caller ID maybe you can find out who is doing this calling.

Hi, Ginny, welcome aboard. I agree people are much divided on this subject and always will be. The doubting Thomas so to speak. Fascinating story about your grandmother. There isn’t much we can say about these happenings. I remember a time in England.... but I’ll tell of that another time. But, Ginny, please don’t forget to tell us about the ghost you have.

Patrick. welcome to this discussion. I have read other posts by you in other discussions and found them all so very interesting, each and everyone. This post is one of them. I was very moved by it. I’m sure the blind man did see all of this in his minds eye or perhaps it was put there by an unseen force for him to help his roommate.

Helen Klingenberg, welcome. I’m glad you found our discussion. I’m sure some people are more gifted than others and I’m not sure why this is. My doctor believes that we do have protective devices in our brain that sees us through difficult times. Perhaps some don’t have this protection and that’s why they break But, please, tell us about all those stories you have heard.

Babi, I also think we have a sixth sense and it’s a natural part of our being. I feel this sixth sense warns us of danger etc. Like the ghost that waved goodbye to his friend, they all seem to smiling. Maybe their glad to be getting out of here.) .

Anna, this place you visit I feel is either a scene from another life or a place you will be visiting in this life or the next. I’m by no means a prophet, Anna, the thought just occurred to me as I read your post.

From what you told us about your husband’s sea survival training and other insights you have had, I’m sure you are most gifted.

Bill H

Let me just respond to just a few :

(*) meditation is a wondrous tool that leads to one's feeling calmed - there is no better word I can think of. There are variations, like TM = transcendental meditation, combined often with yoga. But to the best of my knowledge meditation does not provide a glimpse into the future.

(**) Haunting, Ginny, is not a manifestation of ESP, strictly speaking, as far as I know. Astral projection is to be considered in this context though (and the silver cord), (see Master Guide to Psychism by Harriet A.Boswell, 1969)

(iii) MountainGal, that is an interesting theory about Alzheimer patients. But who could possibly know what happens in their minds ? Why for example do even the most "refined" among them revert to a totally uncharacteristic behavior, using shocking language ?

Astral Projection Voyages of the Mind

Opening Comments

R: "Indeed! Astral projection, what is this? Many individuals do believe that it is a new frontier that which needs to be explored to be further understood. Astral projection was utilized by many ancient individuals from that of the Aztec Indians to the Egyptian individuals, those that would not exist onto the planet Earth and as well the Atlanteans. The format of astral projection is that of a tool, a tool to be utilized in understanding the physical existence. For one would oftimes believe that only the consciousness exists. This is not the case. For the consciousness would not exist without the subconscious, without the astral experiences. For that which you desire on the consciousness here is, in fact, laid out, carefully planned, projected, weighed and measured and chosen on the astral experience. Individuals enter an astral state every evening upon retiring. It is not something that one needs to learn to do for one already does it, else you would not exist on the physical. For to deny that of the astral body would be like cutting off the head from the rest of the body. You would not survive without such. Indeed here, many individuals have learned to tap into their astral learnings and recall such and as such do utilize it in their consciousness to understand the self, to direct the self, to work in cooperation with the self. Indeed, such as the Atlanteans used astral projection to further create a desired reality. So then too can those that exist in that of the primitive understanding of the present utilize this useful tool..."

There are more paragraps in this comment and if you would like to read them, here is the link

http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritual-endeavors.org%2Fchanneling%2Fastral_projection.htm

Very funny, Ginny.)

Bill H

Bill H

re # 495 : Babi, I agree with that also. It is difficult, if not impossible, to differentiate between the believable, the remotely possible -- and downright fraud. And in between there are areas of doubt. Unfortunately the gullible are willing to believe anything (and pay dearly for it).

Ginny, what portion of the message was I to highlight ? Please be patient - you know my irreparable technical limitations !

Bill, on Astral Projection, let me quote from chapter Nine of Harriet A. Boswell's book Master Guide to Psychism second par. pg. 139.

" The term "astral projection" is almost self-explanatory. It might be briefly described as the ability to send out from the body, at will, the spirit form which is our astral body. The astral body is an exact duplicate of the physical body, though so much less dense in form that it is invisible to normal sight. It is the carrier of our consciousness and responds to our thought instantly. " ---

continued from pg. 141.

"The astral generally hovers over the physical body while we sleep, connected by the "silver cord", which is the umbilical link between the astral and the physical bodies. If, or when, the silver cord is severed, death takes place. "-------- Here is part of the summary on chapter Nine pg. 154 :

"1. Astral projection is a natural and constantly repeated event for everyone; recall of the experience is comparatively rare.

2. Astral bodies always exteriorize during sleep, faintings, anaesthesia, or any other form of unconsciousness.

3. Death is the permanent detachment of the astral from the physical; it results from severance of the "silver cord".

------- And then there is this on Hauntings of Houses as Astral Projection , pg. 146 :

"There are also some thoughts to the effect that not all haunted houses are frequented by ghosts, but that the astral form of someone who loved the house, or had some reason for returning to it, is really the "culprit". " ---

There are many facets to this vast, complex topic. But I sincerely believe our questions are reasonable and well founded. It is quite natural to wonder whether there is a door to the other plane, whether there is a curtain that will part, a tunnel through which we travel toward the white light, whether we have a mission in life. It is equally reasonable to wonder whether we have lived before : for example if we happen on a place we have never consciously visited but still feel as though we knew it. Or if we have a sudden instinctual feeling of terror on having to go and fulfill a certain task or duty somewhere, even if we have never been there ? That might lend plausibility to the theory of reincarnation. I am not sure though how I feel about karma, or how YOU feel about it. Another interesting point to bring up.

And there are unanswered and unanswerable questions galore ---

Thank you for all your wonderful thoughts and contributions.

Whoooooo backatcha, Ginny!
Mal

Benjamin and Babi your post about the tunnel of light both seem like reasonable explanations.

Anna, In “A Gift of Prophecy,” Ruth Montgomery quotes Jeane Dixon as saying: “There is sometimes one tiny little moment in time when you can tip the scales and turn the event aside.” From your previous posts of warnings, you seem to have the ability to do this.

Ginny and Mal,

HAHAHAHAHAH. Are you two playing with a full Tarot deck? )

Patrick, thanks for the link. I bookmarked it so that when I have time I can study it more thoroughly.

MountainGal, I’ve never been to Sedona, but from all you have said about it, I’m going to visit Sedona.

Dapphne, I’m going to visit Sedona before I go to Las Vegas again:o)

She says that the reason my plants wither and die young is because of my brusque voice and manner towards my plants.

The power of suggestion as applied by hypnotists, sorcerers, witch doctors, shamans and ministers acts like a placebo, and can alter the functioning of the body to provide healing and cure illness.

  The same power of suggestion, used in the voodoo ritual and applied as a curse by sorcerers and witchdoctors, can cause illness and death to the affected victims.

Pat

Anna, I knew a gentleman that contended the average human brain was only one-sixth developed of its potential. If it developes slightly more than that, the individual enteres the realm of genius. I can understand that.

Bill H

As you know the English drive on the left side of the road and their buses enter and exit passengers the on left. We stopped at a small town in England for a lunch break. While my fellow travelers were grouped around talking with each other on the top steps of the restaurant, I decided to cross the street and take pictures. I was crossing in front of the parked bus forgetting British traffic travels in a different direction than ours. Just as I was about to step away from the front of the bus I clearly heard a woman’s voice call “Bill.” I stopped and as I turned to see who called me I heard the whooshing sound made by a speeding automobile as it went passed the side of the bus I was about to step away from. If I had taken one or two more steps, I would have gone flying down the street in front of shocked British motorist to say nothing of my own shock. After I turned, I looked at the few people standing on the steps, but none of them were looking at me or paying the slightest attention to what I was doing. None of them had called my name. Isn’t it curious I was in the land of my grandmother’s birth-place and it was a woman’s voice I heard calling my name and probably saving my life.

Bill H

You never know who these people may be (possibly your neighbor, coworker, long lost friend, lover, or even an e-mail poster on a religious discussion group) but when you analyze their thoughts and insights, you know at that very moment that they will affect your life in some profound way.

And sometimes things happen to you that may seem horrible, painful, and unfair at first, but in reflection you find that without overcoming those obstacles you would have never realized your potential, strength, willpower, or heart.

Everything happens for a reason. Nothing happens  by chance or by means of luck. Illness, injury,love, lost moments of true greatness, and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul.

  Without these small tests, whatever they may   be, life would be like a smoothly paved, straight, flat road to a boring nowhere.

Pat

I also believe much of our life is laid out for us. There are those who believe we are “Captain of our own ship.” Is this true? As you say, there are many things that happen in each of our lives we have no control over such as accidents, illness, war, terrorist attacks etc. Some are born to royalty others born into poverty. Some are born with genius ability others with mental retardation. These are things we have no control over. Are these events just chance or are they predetermined and, if so, by whom? I suppose I could answer my own question by saying God determines this, but why. Maybe some day we will know the answers.

But Pat, I sorta think I like the smooth flat road part best of all)

Bill H

Though there was some disagreement, the following got the most votes:

1.  Egypt's Great Pyramids 2.  Taj Mahal 3.  Grand Canyon 4.  Panama Canal 5.  Empire State Building 6.  St. Peter's Basilica 7.  China's Great Wall

While gathering the votes, the teacher noted that one quiet student hadn't turned in her paper yet. So she asked the girl if she was having trouble with her list. The girl replied, "Yes, a little. I couldn't quite make up my mind because there were so many." The teacher said, "Well, tell us what you have, and maybe we can help."

The girl hesitated, then read, "I think the Seven Wonders of the World are: 1.  to touch 2.  to taste 3.  to see 4.  to hear 5.  to feel 6.  to laugh 7.  and to love and be loved ".

Those things we overlook as simple and "ordinary", are truly wondrous in every age. in every civilization, past, present and future, if we have one.

Pat

Bill H

Bill H

Bill H

Welcome, Andy.Good to hear from you. A very amazing story you told us. Were you frightened when you discovered the dream was real? Andrea, I aree with Babi, you may have had closure when you visited the house.

You know, from all the posts I have read here,I now firmly believe in the Paranormal!

Bill H

Bill H

From the Library of NewAge On-Line Australia: http://www.newage.com.au

Does Automatic Writing Come From Spirit? by Andrew Fitzherbert

Some mediums can take a pen, relax the mind and body until "something else" starts to write with the hand holding the pen. Occasionally a spirit will take control and do the writing. At other times the medium's own sub-conscious or even the Higher Consciousness, will produce the writing. This is called automatic writing. Whole books have been done this way. One Brazilian medium has produced 70 books by 70 different dead authors.

Anyone can try this process, but you must be careful. It is unwise to experiment on your own. Get a friend to sit with you, or practice in a spiritual group. Be sure to pray before you start and after you finish. Don't watch the writing whilst it is being done. The best mediums can hold a conversation while their hand is busy writing about something entirely different. Only let it happen when you are sitting for it, ie. don't let it occur at odd moments.

Closely allied to this is "Inspirational Writing", the medium writes normally but finds the information is being fed into his or her mind. Val Higson, the well known Brisbane medium, has several spirit friends who dictate poems and essays to her. She sits at her computer, asks for spirit help and the next thing her fingers are flying over the keyboard. Many of the addrresses that Val reads out at church have been given to her this way.

Ruth Bennett, Minister of the Church at Windsor, has occasionally had whole addresses dictated to her from spirit. One Sunday she was ironing and had to stop and get a pen, as a Spirit wanted to dictate. It turned out that night the regular medium did not turn up to church, so Ruth read out the address given that afternoon. This "Inspirational Writing", is often of great value and never creates the problems that often affect people who play at "automatic" writing in a careless or casual manner. Some novelists have experienced it. Charles Dickens and the children's writer Enid Blyton are examples. Both claimed they did not make up stories. Instead, characters seemed to come to them to tell or to act out the stories. They just wrote down what was given to them. Enid Blyton did hundreds of books this way.

Inspirational mediumship can also produce paintings and drawings, Mathew Manning's hand created amazing pen and ink drawings. They would begin in one corner and grow to fill in most of a page. It was as if the sketch grew on the paper like a plant. There have been musicians who received musical compositions like this. Mozart once received a whole symphony in a single second and spent days writing it out. Rosemary Brown, the British medium, has the spirits of several dead composers who come to her and dictate new pieces of music. Music critics say that the best pieces are very fine music indeed and typical of the musicians when they were alive....

Bill H

This was a sentence in the above article I posted about AW. I find it mind boggling that a whole symphony could be received in a single second. I have pondered that quote for a while and sadly my humble mind can not conceive this.

Bill H

There are times when a person nees to be in a crowd, surrounded by noisy people, and there are times when a person needs to be alone, surrounded by nature's own quiet atmosphere.

  My friends are divided into those who crave the solace of stillness, and those who need communication with cantankerous crowds.

Whenever I am trapped into a seemingly endless series of days with friends, and just plain people, panic seizes me, and I long for the privacy of the woods, and the stillness that is available to me in this seclusion.

  Here I like to ramble, relax and dream, breathing the fresh air, sorting sounds, coming to friendly terms with birds and squirrels and brooding upon the the strange shapes of scattered clouds. Here I am free to think about life's meanings, and whatever pleases or puzzles me.Here I really learn how little I really need in order to be happy.

  Every smell and noise and breeze and stirring of thought lightly echoes, and adds to the total of me, and all I have ever acquired in the way of learning and knowledge.

To live a fruitful and interesting life, I believe that our thoughts must wander up and down, to and fro. Such thoughts require space and freedom from impact. People who like to be alone are always people who like to think. Thoughts require room to explode, bounce around, or lie dormant, if necessary. Thinkers, therefore, instinctively avoid a crowd, and secede into secret seclusion whenever conditions permit.

When I am in the solitude of the woods, I like to think.

  Alone, but not lonely, I postulate philosophies, explore my soul, and in the midst of wilderness, listening to the large soft silence, expose my likes and angers, wishes and disappointments, I examine each, and put it in its place. Alone, I redefine my appreciation of the people with whom I live.

At times I need only a few hours; at other times I need a few days withdrawal1o restore myself to the point where I am smothered with seclusion and silence,

  Then I am ready to return to the hubbub of family and busy people, where I can easily slide back into the ordinary rhythm of my life.

Aloneness is a means, a method to meditation and results in three paradoxes.

  The first is that a person who truly wishes to find himself must lose himself.   Secondly, the person who is truly alone, is also most fully with others.

  Finally, when a thinker stops asking questions, the answer most properly comes, while he is alone, in communion with the Source, God Himselve.

  It is in our reflections during these moments that we discover the meaning of our physical existence, the root of our spiritual life, and the necessity of amplifying our meditation and prayer life.

Pat

Bill H

Today brings a close to these two weeks of the Paranormal topic in Curious Minds. Tomorrow a new Discussion Leader will begin a new topic in Curious Minds the subject title is: “ The Sanctions Against Iran-For or Against?" I’m sure you will enjoy the new subject as much as I hope you enjoyed this one. Perhaps we can do this again sometime.

Thank you and pleasant dreams.

Bill H

Bill H

And thanks again for that very nice compliment of my discussion. That’s a good idea you have of having the readership discuss their multiple artibutes. Thank you again

Bill H

I have introduced the topic of the Iraqi sanctions because in searching for info on them, I found many diverse articles and opinions. I know that none of us is for sanctions on innocent citizens or children but unfortuneately they seem to be the ones who suffer. Its too bad that one can't impose sanctions just on the leaders of the countries we consider wrong. I hope you will all read the different links as I tried to find the history of this so called solution against an offending country. My question is: Who do we believe, our media and leaders, the leaders of Iraq, the social workers who have seen the devastation of that country? Is this about weapons or is it about OIL? Having read "The Prize" by Daniel Yergin many years ago, I am in a qauandry when it comes to who do we believe. Please join us and see what we can learn together. There are many more links on the net to reasearch and I will be including them in my posts as this discussion goes along.

The author and photographer is Deryk Houston. There is an explanation of this group in the More Photos site. I have marked these two sites backwards, haven't I? More photos should be first.

Benjamin

This is a sticky problem and not easily solved. What do we expect from OUR leaders here in the US? Compassion? Protection? Maybe a global approach is needed?

Yes, it is a h--- of a world that we live in and we don't seem to be improving any. Looking at biological and chemical solutions, as early as 4000B.C. up to the present means that we haven't improved much in our approach to solving civilization's problems. I heard a radio personality once remark that "the leaders of a country have only got two jobs. Defending the borders and running the post office." He felt that the government should stay away! Well, obviously that can't be since we pay our taxes so that the government can do the things that we can't do on our own.

Excerpt:

More and more in recent years, those networks have extended to Iraq, which has long shipped its oil from Ceyhan. Friendly relations between the two countries go back decades, and Russia is by far Iraq's largest trading partner. It also holds $8 billion in Iraqi debt, giving it a long-term stake in Iraqi stability.

Who is to blame for the suffering of the Iraqi people: the West, for imposing harsh economic sanctions, or Saddam Hussein for failing to comply with the disarmament terms required for lifting those sanctions.

The sanctions are hurting the Iraqi people while leaving Saddam firmly in power. Lifting sanctions per se would not offer the Iraqi people much relief from neglect and manipulation at the hands of Saddam's regime. Saddam's priorities are clear: palaces for himself, prison for the Iraqi people, and weapons to destroy Iraq's citizens and its neighbors. Baghdad's refusal to cooperate with the oil-for-food programme and its deliberate misuse of resources are cynical efforts to sacrifice the Iraqi people's welfare in order to bring an end to UN sanctions without giving up his weapons of mass destruction.

So, what can be done? I would endeavor to propose some measures that could alleviate the suffering of the Iraqi people.

1. The link between economic sanctions and the military embargo should be broken, easing pressure on Iraqi people while keeping tight control of any arms going into Iraq.

2. The UN Sanctions Committee, ought to use much better judgment and their priority should be the relief of human suffering of the Iraqi people. They should make arrangement to expedite approval and shipment of humanitarian items. One way is to "preapprove" applications to import food, pharmaceuticals, medical, agricultural, and educational equipment;

3. The distribution criteria are established by the Government of Iraq, and the distribution program is generally assessed within those parameters. At the same time, it is constantly being reported that the available resources are not distributed to all the people in the southern governorates, who are the worst off and in the greatest need. A new universal distribution criteria should be set by UN Office of Iraq Programme (OIP) and enforced.

4. The OIP should set up its own depots and bulk distribution centres, and deal with the local distribution network directly without any hindrance or interference from Saddam's government.

5. The World Health Organization should carry a wide-scale scientific study to determine the causes of very high rates of cancer in Iraq, and particularly leukemia among the children. UN agencies should then carry out a large-scale clean-up operation to decontaminate the environment from agents responsible.

6. Steps should be taken to end the intellectual and informational isolation of Iraqi educators and health professionals in particular;

7. The pressure on Saddam's regime should be maintained or even increased, and linked not only with the elimination of WMD but also to human rights conditions in Iraq as required by UN SCR 688.

8. France, Russia, China and Qatar have been calling for unconditional lift of the sanctions. It is their own self-interest and not that of the Iraqi people at heart. France seems to have been promised good oil deals in post-sanctions Iraq, while Russia is hoping Iraq can pay it back for Soviet-era arms sales. Tragically, saving Iraqi lives--or, for that matter, the lives of others who might be endangered by weapons of mass destruction in Saddam's hands--does not appear to be their concern. The co-operation of these governments with Saddam's regime in deepening the suffering of the Iraqi people should be exposed to the public opinion in an effort to end this collaboration.





Dr. H Al-Shahristani is a prominent Iraqi nuclear scientist and was a chief scientific advisor to the Iraqi Government till 1979.

Barbara, that article in the Village Voice is certainly worth reading. Thanks for the link!

At this time, we are opening the schools up again in Afganistan and feeding the Afganis. Sending books to the schools, including the universities. Who is paying for all of this? Won't we do the same for the Iraqi population, should we ever get in there? Who will pay for that? I just don't agree with bombing a country into oblivion and then (using our tax monies), rebuilding it. Seems like it would be easier to go after Saddam and his crew secretly. This is a viscious circle we are in. We seem to be like the tiger chasing his tail around a tree.

Lets see! Iraq produces oil, we buy it, they use the money to try to kill off most of the world which causes the sanctions to be put in place but we need oil for our vehicles(even the army does) so we don't stop the sanctions which means that Iraq can't feed their own peoples because they don't have the money that they would have if we would let them sell their oil? Whaaaat? I am lost here

And then, there is the whole other thing about whose oil will be shipped across whose country into whose shipping lanes of what sea. Possibly, the unthinkable happens and one of those incredibly huuuuuuuuge tankers goes down and dumps its oil in the ocean. So now, not only must funds be sought for cleaning up the mess but more oil must be produced and purchased. Is this whole situation about the OIL?

King Hussein of Jordan has told Mr. Cheney that he does not support the idea of military action against Iraq, and Turkey had expressed a similar view recently. Our friend Saudi Arabia is likewise cool to the idea, from all appearances.

How wise is it, really, to inform the world ahead of time of our intentions or plans of attacking any country, which would mean opening another front ? Because the fight about Afghanistan is far from over.

And if other "rogue" states behave in a way that does not please us, is it our aim , indeed our duty, to bomb them into submission too ? There are many trouble spots all over the world, real and potential powder kegs. Are we to tackle them all, one after another ?

The information about the America pilot seems to be new. Why haven't we heard about this before ? Why is this news disseminated now ?

So, laselburn, if I understand you about Cheney, its not just about oil or money but about politics,too.

There are people suffering all over the world from starvation and no one seems to want to stop it. Could we stop the sanctions, get our inspectors into Iraq, and still keep Saddam at bay?

Are the rich running the world on our backs and our money? Anyone read the book about the arms industry before WWI when the big industrialists sat down and chose which countries they could each sell their wares to? This was back in the 1890's! They already knew that the war was invetible. And, they didn't care who won!

š jane›

Barbara, as you say, this has become a giant chess game and I guess that we all want to be is the "queen" with the most protection.

Jane, I just read the editorial in this week's USNews&World which says that "the media can influence policy without having to bear responsibility for its results." And, maybe that's what worries me. We might end up in a conflagration that we never intended.

From Robby: am re-posting this so you can give reactions to Durant's comments.

The First Commandment - - -

I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Comments on the First Commandment by Durant:--"The first laid the foundation of the new theocratic community, which was to rest not upon any civil law, but upon the idea of God. He was the Invisible King who dictated every law and meted out every penalty. And his people were to be called Israel, as meaning the Defenders of God.

"The Hebrew state was dead, but the Temple remained. The priests of Judea, like the Popes of Rome, would try to restore what the kings had failed to save. Hence the explicitness and reiteration of the First Commandment. Heresy or blasphemy must be punished with death, even if the heretic should be one's closest kin. The priestly authors of the Code, like the pious Inquisitors, believed that religious unity was an indipensable condition of social organization and solidarity. It was this intolerance, and their racial pride, that embroiled and preserved the Jews."

I don't why my initial reaction was "this applies to civilization now!" but to me it does. Nothing changes, does it?

Are the US and UK fueling hatred of democracies by not dropping the sanctions? I find that the more that I read, the less I know!

As for Iraq, that is clearly considered "unfinished business" by many. The propaganda efforts are clearly heating up.

I am still wondering where we start when and if we want our government to end the sanctions on Iraq and yes, on Cuba. I have found all sorts of sights regarding this topic but the one that surprised me the most was two little girls who have been to Iraq and want us to write our leaders about the criminality in the sanctions. I will see if I can find them again.

Who gets hurt by sanctions?

The Iraq Action Coalition Plus Current News on Cheney's trip

Back to the sanctions(as Ms Barbara comments), did you read about the Smart Sanctions, Barbara? Do you think that they might be the way for us to go? The decision on them isn't until June. Is there anyway that a single citizen could help the poor in Iraq? One of the articles that I read said its not that the goods doesn't get there, its the infrastructure of delivery trucks and volunteers which has been almost destroyed. And, when they order one thing, the parts are sent over a long period of time. Medical supplies and instruments are extremely hard to come by as they can be listed as having possibilities of being used in weapons making. Biolological and nuclear! Its just very hard to help this population. It would seem to me that one way would be for the UN to get in there with volunteers or paid workers who can do the ordering and the distributing among the population. Like soup kitchens, doctor and nurse units, etc. What say you?

• unilateral disarmament,
• compensation to Kuwait for damage inflicted during the occupation and war,
• and acceptance of the 1963 Iraq-Kuwait border.

• buy humanitarian supplies for Iraq
• to compensate Kuwait for war damages
• to reimburse U.N. for its costs.

• rebuilt his army from the wreck left in 1991.
• He continues to evade United Nations inspectors, trying to hide Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

As best I recall, the sanctions apply to what Iraq is allowed to import and export, but I may be wrong. It is well known that some essential foodstuffs and medicine are not available, the population has been facing great hardships, and it is the children who suffer, as innocents always do. Would it be possible to somehow find out what the sanctions entail, or is that classified information ? France has spoken out in favor of lifting the sanctions several times, but of that there seems little chance.

The combative stance taken by the administration is unmistakable. For all we know, the decision to attack Iraq may already have been made, despite the Arab nations' unwillingnes to join our coalition. The Europeans, having experienced the horrors of bombing first hand in WW II, also appear hesitant to sally forth in support of the renewed bombing of Iraq.

IS there something, ANYthing anybody can do to help ? Or is it too late ? In the wake of 9/11 it is harder to speak out; no one wants to be accused of being unpatriotic, after all !

• Jordan contends that the funds that Iraq would receive for the oil would instead be used to pay off Iraq's debt to Jordan. AND Jordan continues to make new loans to Iraq. Therefore, Jordan can violate the spirit of the sanctions by importing Iraqi oil to repay old Iraqi debts, while extending new loans to Iraq that amounts to the same thing as paying Iraq directly for the oil.
• The Turks have taken advantage of the $2.20 price difference between heavily subsidized Turkish oil and Iraqi oil.
• Because of the shortage of equipment, Iraq continues pumping with the risk of an oil spill occurring causing enviornmental suffering to the area.
• After the Gulf War Saddham set up a rationing system allowing the price of some goods to increase because of market demand. (one of the notes I have but I am not sure which book this came from said that the goods affected included drugs like penisilin.) This cut consumption and at the same time keept goods on the shelf.
• Also, the government saw to reducing the number of livestock, so as to free up cereals. Cereals are cheaper to produce and can feed more people. Result, Iraq can hold out against sanctions for a longer period of time.
• Iraq's economy is supported in part by the gold reserves and other assets it stole from Kuwait during the Gulf War. It is estimated that Iraq stole $4 billion in gold from Kuwaiti government coffers.
• Iraq also took automobiles, durable goods, and antiquities and re-exported them, said to be worth $300 million.
• Mesopotamian antiquities were among the loot stolen. There were reports of hundreds of looters swarming over archeological sites, carrying truckload back to Iraq. The trade in Mesopotamian antiquites is so successful that an illegal trade is a thriving business in Iraq.
• There are rumors that there are large, undeclared Iraqi bank accounts abroad.
• Richard Newcomb, director of the U.S. Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control believes that the U.S. Treasury, through secret accounts and investments, covert Iraqi front companies and clandestine agents of his regime, Saddam Hussein is attempting to sustain and proliferate disregarding the U.N.

So where do we fit in ? Our own borders are not threatened by Iraq's weapons whatever they are; besides, borders are not what they used to be, as we saw on 9/11.

So whom or what are we protecting if we attack Iraq once again ?

I wonder whether the widow ever got an answer from Senator Warner. I remember him well; we lived in northern Virginia, just across the Potomac, for 20 years. He was there then and he is still there now, an ardent Republican (but so is most of Virginia, something I didn't appreciate when we first arrived there).

As for "spin", well, that is taking ever more innovative manifestations. We are told what we are meant to know, and no more. All kinds of euphemistic terms have been invented ("collateral" is just one of them), and Orwell's predictions in his book 1984 have become eerily true.

The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.

That was 1913.

In short, under the Turks the land suffered from neglect and low population. That is a historic fact. The nation became populated by both Jews and Arabs because the land came to prosper when Jews came back and began to reclaim it. Historically, they began to reclaim it. If there had never been any archaeological evidence to support the rights of the Israelis to the territory, it is also important to recognize that other nations in the area have no longstanding claim to the country either.

Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanon until 1920? Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders of Jordan were established in 1946 and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny their own rights as recent arrivals as well. They did not exist as countries. They were all under the control of the Turks.

Historically, Israel gained its independence in 1948.

The third reason that land belongs to Israel is the practical value of the Israelis being there. Israel today is a modern marvel of agriculture. Israel is able to bring more food out of a desert environment than any other country in the world. The Arab nations ought to make Israel their friend and import technology from Israel that would allow all the Middle East, not just Israel, to become an exporter of food. Israel has unarguable success in its agriculture.

grounds of humanitarian concern. You see, there were 6 million Jews slaughtered in Europe in World War II. The persecution against the Jews had been very strong in Russia since the advent of communism. It was against them even before then under the Czars.

These people have a right to their homeland. If we are not going to allow them a homeland in the Middle East, then where? What other nation on Earth is going to cede territory, is going to give up land?

They are not asking for a great deal. The whole nation of Israel would fit into my home State of Oklahoma seven times. It would fit into the Presiding Officer's State of Georgia seven times. They are not asking for a great deal. The whole nation of Israel is very small. It is a nation that, up until the time that claims started coming in, was not desired by anybody.

The fifth reason Israel ought to have their land is that she is a strategic ally of the United States. Whether we realize it or not, Israel is a detriment, an impediment, to certain groups hostile to democracies and hostile to what we believe in, hostile to that which makes us the greatest nation in the history of the world. They have kept them from taking complete control of the Middle East. If it were not for Israel, they would overrun the region. They are our strategic ally.

It is good to know we have a friend in the Middle East on whom we can count. They vote with us in the United Nations more than England, more than Canada, more than France, more than Germany--more than any other country in the world.

The sixth reason is that Israel is a roadblock to terrorism. The war we are now facing is not against a sovereign nation; it is against a group of terrorists who are very fluid, moving from one country to another. They are almost invisible. That is whom we are fighting against today.

We need every ally we can get. If we do not stop terrorism in the Middle East, it will be on our shores. We have said this again and again and again, and it is true.

One of the reasons I believe the spiritual door was opened for an attack against the United States of America is that the policy of our Government has been to ask the Israelis, and demand it with pressure, not to retaliate in a significant way against the terrorist strikes that have been launched against them.

Since its independence in 1948, Israel has fought four wars: The war in 1948 and 1949--that was the war for independence--the war in 1956, the Sinai campaign; the Six-Day War in 1967; and in 1973, the Yom Kippur War, the holiest day of the year, and that was with Egypt and Syria.

were not the aggressor. Some people may argue that this was not true because they went in first in 1956, but they knew at that time that Egypt was building a huge military to become the aggressor. Israel, in fact, was not the aggressor and has not been the aggressor in any of the four wars.

Also, they won all four wars against impossible odds. They are great warriors. They consider a level playing field being outnumbered 2 to 1.

There were 39 Scud missiles that landed on Israeli soil during the gulf war. Our President asked Israel not to respond. In order to have the Arab nations on board, we asked Israel not to participate in the war. They showed tremendous restraint and did not. Now we have asked them to stand back and not do anything over these last several attacks.

We have criticized them. We have criticized them in our media. Local people in television and radio often criticize Israel, not knowing the true facts. We need to be informed.

I was so thrilled when I heard a reporter pose a question to our Secretary of State, Colin Powell. He said:

Mr. Powell, the United States has advocated a policy of restraint in the Middle East. We have discouraged Israel from retaliation again and again and again because we've said it leads to continued escalation--that it escalates the violence. Are we going to follow that preaching ourselves?

Mr. Powell indicated we would strike back. In other words, we can tell Israel not to do it, but when it hits us, we are going to do something.

But all that changed in December when the Israelis went into the Gaza with gunships and into the West Bank with F-16s. With the exception of last May, the Israelis had not used F-16s since the 1967 6-Day War. And I am so proud of them because we have to stop terrorism. It is not going to go away. If Israel were driven into the sea tomorrow, if every Jew in the Middle East were killed, terrorism would not end. You know that in your heart. Terrorism would continue.

It is not just a matter of Israel in the Middle East. It is the heart of the very people who are perpetrating this stuff. Should they be successful in overrunning Israel--which they won't be--but should they be, it would not be enough. They will never be satisfied.

No. 7, I believe very strongly that we ought to support Israel; that it has a right to the land. This is the most important reason: Because God said so. As I said a minute ago, look it up in the book of Genesis. It is right up there on the desk.

In Genesis 13:14-17, the Bible says:

The Lord said to Abram, ``Lift up now your eyes, and look from the place where you are northward, and southward, and eastward and westward: for all the land which you see, to you will I give it, and to your seed forever. ..... Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it to thee.''

That is God talking.

The Bible says that Abram removed his tent and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar before the Lord. Hebron is in the West Bank. It is at this place where God appeared to Abram and said, ``I am giving you this land,''--the West Bank.

This is not a political battle at all. It is a contest over whether or not the word of God is true. The seven reasons, I am convinced, clearly establish that Israel has a right to the land.

Eight years ago on the lawn of the White House, Yitzhak Rabin shook hands with PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat. It was a historic occasion. It was a tragic occasion.

``Let us appease the terrorists. Let us begin to trade the land for peace.'' This process continued unabated up until last year. Here in our own Nation, at Camp David, in the summer of 2000, then Prime Minister of Israel Ehud Barak offered the most generous concessions to Yasser Arafat that had ever been laid on the table.

He offered him more than 90 percent of all the West Bank territory, sovereign control of it. There were some parts he did not want to offer, but in exchange for that he said he would give up land in Israel proper that the PLO had not even asked for.

And he also did the unthinkable. He even spoke of dividing Jerusalem and allowing the Palestinians to have their capital there in the East. Yasser Arafat stormed out of the meeting. Why did he storm out of the meeting? Everything he had said he wanted was offered there. It was put into his hands. Why did he storm out of the meeting?

A couple of months later, there began to be riots, terrorism. The riots began when now Prime Minister Ariel Sharon went to the Temple Mount. And this was used as the thing that lit the fire and that caused the explosion.

Did you know that Sharon did not go unannounced and that he contacted the Islamic authorities before he went and secured their permission and had permission to be there? It was no surprise.

The response was very carefully calculated. They knew the world would not pay attention to the details.

They would portray this in the Arab world as an attack upon the holy mosque. They would portray it as an attack upon that mosque and use it as an excuse to riot. Over the last 8 years, during this time of the peace process, where the Israeli public has pressured its leaders to give up land for peace because they are tired of fighting, there has been increased terror.

In fact, it has been greater in the last 8 years than any other time in Israel's history. Showing restraint and giving in has not produced any kind of peace. It is so much so that today the leftist peace movement in Israel does not exist because the people feel they were deceived.

They did offer a hand of peace, and it was not taken. That is why the politics of Israel have changed drastically over the past 12 months. The Israelis have come to see that, ``No matter what we do, these people do not want to deal with us. ..... They want to destroy us.'' That is why even yet today the stationery of the PLO still has upon it the map of the entire state of Israel, not just the tiny little part they call the West Bank that they want. They want it all.

We have to get out of this mind set that somehow you can buy peace in the Middle East by giving little plots of land. It has not worked before when it has been offered.

These seven reasons show why Israel is entitled to that land.

"certain groups hostile to democracies and hostile to what we believe in, hostile to that which makes us the greatest nation in the history of the world. They have kept them from taking complete control of the Middle East. If it were not for Israel, they would overrun the region. They are our strategic ally."

"Israel is a roadblock to terrorism. The war we are now facing is not against a sovereign nation; it is against a group of terrorists who are very fluid, moving from one country to another. They are almost invisible. That is whom we are fighting against today."

Sorry I haven't been in here but I had and still have company plus more arriving on Friday. So, computering has been put aside. Again, thanks to all of you wonderful, bright and intelligent posters for all of this info. I have downloaded the last posts from #636 to 656 and will be reading them this morning. Plus clicking on the URL's left by Barbara. Maybe when and if my sister plus her 3mos old grandchild get to leave today, I will get back in here. We are having some nasty weather, rain and snow, so their departure is questionable but a possibility as soon as the temp goes up. I don't want them to have to travel in anything even iffy!

Your #649 to #657 posts are the best posts I"ve seen in this forum and IMHO are the best remedy for the propaganda that has been foisted on us lately in some posts in this forum and in the liberal press against some of the protective actions our government took after the 9/11/02 disaster.

As a combat soldier in WW2 I was exposed to much enemy propaganda. showered on us from the enemy, trying to weaken our government's objectives and to achieve their own goals without much resistance,

For this reason I am sensitive to any thinly veiled efforts of propaganda that is made in an effort to lessen support of our government's actions, which are based on the best secret intelligence information that is available anywhere in the world.

Adolph Hitler's 1933 "Law for the Prevention of Offspring with Hereditary Diseases,"was a decree that led the Nazis to sterilize some 2 million Europeans deemed as imbeciles or feebleminded in the occupied countries during WW2.

The Nazi proponents of the eugenics movement used propaganda that actually had a longer list of those who should be sterilized, including beggars, tramps, alcoholics, prostitutes, the shiftless, criminals, the physically deformed, the blind and deaf and epileptics.

The motive behind the sterilizations was a fundamentally racist idea to improve the world by ridding it of human beings perceived to be flawed.

This allowed them to look on the jews as flawed humans and eventually led to the suffering and extermination of over six million Jews during WW2, sometimes with the aid and cooperation of the people of the conquered nations.

This is the reason for the present strong Jewish determination that they will never allow this to happen again, no matter what the rest of the world thinks.

Anyone who has viewed the concentration camps and the gas ovens used on the Jewish people during WW2 can easily understand the Jewish reluctance to appear weak in their present circumstances, and the necessity for them to deal from a position of strength.

What the terrorists did to us on 9/11/01 should make us realize the wisdom of the quote by Teddy Roosevelt, in using the peoper method of dealing with terrorism:

" Speak softly, and carry a big stick."

Pat

The more that I read here and elsewhere makes me wonder if the human race will ever improve. Remember our reactions to the bombing of Dresden after WWII? or our reactions to the fire bombing of Tokoyo? Nothing like that sounds okay in hindsight but as you all know, we thought is was necessary at the time. Then, there are the holding camps for the Japanese in their own US. I guess that we do what we hope will work and what seems best at that time.

He is responsible for many of the hardships the Iraqi people are undergoing because of the sanctions.

A United Nations spokeman offered Saddam an easy solution for their elimination.

A New York Times article dated 3/22/2002 states:

'The chief United Nations arms inspector told the Security Council earlier this month that his inspectors could conceivably accomplish their disarmament tasks in Iraq in less than a year once Baghdad gave the green light for their return, but only if Iraqis actively cooperated.

Once the inspections were carried out to his satisfaction, the chief inspector, Hans Blix, could recommend that the council suspend, though not lift, penalties that have been in place since Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990.

Continuing inspections would ensure that Baghdad was not secretly acquiring new chemical, biological and nuclear stockpiles.

Mr. Blix, a Swedish diplomat who is the executive chairman of the United Nations arms inspection commission, briefed the Security Council in a closed session on March 8, a day after the first visit in more than a year by an Iraqi delegation.

Details of his briefing, and of questions that the Iraqis handed to Secretary General Kofi Annan, filtered out this week.

The Iraqi delegation was led by Foreign Minister Naji Sabri and included Maj. Gen. Hussam Mohammed Amin, Baghdad's liaison for working with inspectors inside Iraq. The Iraqis described the meetings as "constructive and positive."

 

A United Nations spokesman called them "frank and useful."

Diplomats familiar with Mr. Blix's briefing said he avoided being pinned down on how long the inspectors would be in Iraq, explaining that a renewed search for weapons of mass destruction involved many uncertainties, not least being Iraq's cooperation.

Linda

Linda

Gorman and Patrick, your posts have made me think a bit more openly concerning the sanctions.

Gorman's post #670 affirmed my thinking about religion being the cause of wars through-out all the history of human civilization.

On December 15, 1944 members of my unit, of the 3rd Inf. Div., were digging in on the western bank of the Rhine River near Strassbourg, Germany. We had already spent previous Christmas seasons in foxholes, in Africa in 1942, and in Italy in 1943.

As the darkness fell one of my buddies took out his mouth organ and started to play "Silent Night" in homage to the One who had been born during this season 2000 years ago.

Suddenly from across the river the German soldiers picked up the melody and were singing "Stille Nacht" (Silent Night) in their own lanquage and in perfect harmony with the American soldiers on the west side of the river.

For the rest of the evening, and late into the night, Christmas carols were sung jointly by two adversaries, in two different lanquages, using the same melodies, about peace and Chrietmas.

  At daybreak on Dec.16,1944, German Panzer Armies lashed out in a counter offensive, which we now know as the "Battle of the Bulge", in an effort to push us back to the English Channel and another disasterous Dunkirk.

  It was ironic that many German soldiers that died during that battle wore brass inscriptions on their belt buckles that said "Gott mit Uns" ( God is with us ), and we Americans had naively assumed that God was only with us.

In retrospect, God WAS with both of us the previous night, when two hostile adversaries, dedicated and determined to exterminate each other, were jointly singing those Christmas hymns, in homage to the Creator who had made us both.

Pat

Where did the notion that chemical and biological weapons were something we all should consider inventing? Back to the history at the top of this page! Its not new.

6th Century BC -- Assyrians poisoned enemy wells with rye ergot.

6th Century BC -- Solon of Athens used the purgative herb hellebore (skunk cabbage) to poison the water supply during the siege of Krissa.

In 1346 AD, plague broke out in the Tartar army during its siege of Kaffa (at present day Feodosiys in Crimea). The attackers hurled the corpses of those who died over the city walls; the plague epidemic that followed forced the defenders to surrender, and some infected people who left Kaffa may have started the Black Death pandemic which spread throughout Europe.

1797 -- Napoleon attempted to infect the inhabitants of the besieged city of Mantua with swamp fever during his Italian campaign.

1915 -- ...the case, dating back to 1915, of German-American physician Dr. Anton Dilger, who ...established a small biological agent production facility at his northwest Washington, DC home. Using cultures of Bacillus Anthracis (Anthrax) and Pseudomonas Mallei (Glanders) supplied by the Imperial German government, Dilger produced an estimated liter or more of liquid agent. Reportedly, the agent and a simple inoculation device were given to a group of dock workers in Baltimore who used them to infect a reported 3000 head of horses, mules and cattle destined for the Allied forces in Europe. Allegedly, several hundred military personnel were also affected.

1931 -- in July 1994 Prince Mikasa of Japan revealed that Japanese military officials had attempted to poison members of the League of Nations' Lytton Commission assigned to investigate Japan's seizure of Manchuria in 1931, by lacing fruit with cholera germs, but that "the investigators did not develop the disease" (source:Biological Terrorism: The Threat According to the Open Literature )

With technological advances we have provided horrific possibilities. All I could think of was my grans and their parents! What kind of world are we coming to? My grandmother said in the 1950's, "I don't envy young parents raising children today." I didn't know what she meant until mine were in high school and now I am looking at my grans in college and grade and thinking the same thing!

Your #676 post points out the importance of water for human existence.

During 1942 and 1943 water was always a problem in Africa for the American troops, as we were only allowed a canteen of water a day In the desert.

The wells were far apart, and the Germans, to make things tough for us, as they retreated, would not only throw a mule or a sheep into the wells, but would also mine and booby trap everything in the area.

  In order to drink the water, we had to strain the maggots out using our shirts, and then put in it lister bags mixed with chlorine, before we filled our canteens.

One of the things I am most grateful for to-day is the ability to drink pure fresh water at any time.

Nevertheless, defense officials have said they have not yet found any direct evidence of weapons of mass destruction in more than four-dozen laboratories and other facilities that drew their attention.

U.S. officials describe the evidence as significant, and said it has alarmed the president's inner circle. Law enforcement agencies have been alerted for weeks to an increased threat to key infrastructure.

  The FBI issued an alert on 16 Jan 02, referencing unconfirmed reports that terrorists were using local and state web sites to obtain information on energy infrastructures, dams, reservoirs, nuclear and gas facilities and nuclear storage sites. The advisory urged recipients to remain vigilant and report any unusual activity around such sites.

Potential Methods And Targets of Attack Bombing or airline attack on a nuclear power plant or other U.S. nuclear facility, such as a weapons storage depot, designed to cause mass casualties and spread deadly radiological debris.

  A bombing against a U.S. warship in Bahrain, headquarters of the U.S. Navy's 5th Fleet, where some 20 ships are based.

Another airliner attack on a building using a hijacked commercial jet as a suicide bomber.

A vehicle bombing in Yemen. (Authorities in Yemen, acting on intelligence gathered by the United States in Afghanistan, recently averted a car bombing of the U.S. Embassy in San'a by finding the explosives-laden vehicle).

Americans should not consider the threat of potential terrorist attack to be over. Al-Qaeda has been disrupted and its timing upset, yet the organization and its global network of semi-autonomous terrorist cells should be considered a continuing potent and credible threat.

    The evidence points to detailed surveillance already having been conducted.

    Al-Qaeda plans their attacks long before the actual strike. It is likely that additional attacks may be in the operational stages.

Pat

Linda

I have really enjoyed and as I said before, learned from, this discussion and want to thank everyone who took part and shared their opinions with us about THE SANCTIONS. It has caused me to do more research on our world and its problems, to pay better attention to the news wherever it comes from and to try to "ouiji out" the truth about this subject and others pertaining to the Middle East. Thanks again and please join us tomorrow for a new topic!!

The National Review article seemed a bit extreme for NR. I always thought that they were very conservative. What say you? I am going back to your URL to read some more of this week's columns plus looking up the one mentioned, Peggy Noonan's WSJ feature. Be back later!

PN Mar15 Column

Ms. Noonan says, "The man who planned and created the terrible deed that day signed his own death warrant, signed the death warrant of his movement, may well have signed Saddam's, and left an America stronger and more united than it had been in a very long time."

I like that.

Some of the articles sound like the hawkish side of conservatism.

Well, I just read Gorman's post and I guess we need that world dominance...eeek!

Linda

Yes, I just go carried away when I got to Peggy Noonan and was reading all of her archived columns last night until 9pm. I am crazy, just a little!

Regarding the links, yes this is scary stuff and sad because it gives me such a helpless feeling when it comes to "what does one do to help". I guess if we still believe in an afterlife, the answer is to just keep truckin'. Also, I think one needs to let people know how he feels and continue to do the best that we can. Its similar to the fear of flying 9/11. I believe that when you time is up, your time is up, so wherever you happen to be at the time really doesn't make any difference.

About the wind and windmills, they are supposedly killing the birds so now that's not an option? What about screens over them? Seems that could work. But maybe it wouldn't as they might get entangled in the screening like the dolphins get caught in the plastic netting in the ocean.

Looks like this is the last post so go back and read the LAST one that I posted yesterday. #681! TEE HEE! See ya'll online and in here tomorrow! You have all been great and made this so interesting and informative! Thanks a lot!

The vast differences in the prevalent individual national cultures was demonstrated to me many times in WW2.

I once went on military furlough and was billeted in an ancient hotel in Casa Blanca, French Morocco, shortly after the American victory in Africa in 1942.

The communal toilet on each level of this hotel consisted of a hole in the floor of a closet under the staircase.

This served as the outlet of human endeavor for all the people on that particular floor level. After much searching, I was directed to the toilet accommodations under the stairs.

As I pushed the door of the commode open, I saw a ceiling with fallen plaster and flaking walls lit by a 15-watt bulb.

  No sooner had I ascertained the wattage of the bulb when a piercing scream raised my hair on end and sent the cold chills up and down my back.

As the sound came from the lower regions of the closet I was amazed to see before my astonished eyes a squatting female form.

  My mother taught me to be the perfect gentleman in every situation, so as she would have me do, I did not run away, but using my best American manner, I stood my ground and delivered a lengthy apology in both English and halting French, following the strict American culture that I had been taught, but to no avail.

My gentlemanly speech was met by a string of curses in both English and French as well as an occasional Arabic phrase in a dialect which I was unable to translate into English .

The lady then attempted to shut the door with such force that she slammed it on my hand, very unladylike.

The inconsiderate behavior on her part, after my profuse, gentlemanly apology, indicated what a culture difference existed between us , and caused me to make a resolve never to return to Casa Blanca again, even though Ingrid Bergman and Humphrey Bogard might have been in the same hotel at that time, and might even have used the same commode that I did!

Pat

When someone lifts us
He lifts in his hand millions of memories
Which do not dissolve in blood
Like evening

Nelly Sachs Chorus of the Stones

Though there was some disagreement, the following got the most votes:

1.  Egypt's Great Pyramids 2.  Taj Mahal 3.  Grand Canyon 4.  Panama Canal 5.  Empire State Building 6.  St. Peter's Basilica 7.  China's Great Wall

While gathering the votes, the teacher noted that one quiet student hadn't turned in her paper yet. So she asked the girl if she was having trouble with her list. The girl replied, "Yes, a little. I couldn't quite make up my mind because there were so many." The teacher said, "Well, tell us what you have, and maybe we can help."

The girl hesitated, then read, "I think the Seven Wonders of the World are: 1.  to touch 2.  to taste 3.  to see 4.  to hear 5.  to feel 6.  to laugh 7.  and to love and be loved ".

Those things we overlook as simple and "ordinary", are truly wondrous in every age. in every civilization, past, present and future, if we have one.

Pat

Music always comes to mind-I grew up with classical music and jazz and patriotic music. I still love it all, including old fashioned country western. My SIL's husband was one of those instrumental in Congress's voting "The Stars and Stripes Forever" as our national march. When we were performing all those patriotic songs after 9/11, I don't remember hearing "Grand Ole' Flag" but I do recall it was one of the first that I learned for Flag Day.

Jazz was first performed in U.S. so its a very American art form to me. And, there is Jazz and there is jazz! I don't like it all. Part of those choices are regional, aren't they?

Isn't that American? Being able to choose from a full buffet of offerings?

I find that Americans are very open souls, anywhere you go but we do have the tradition of small town vs big city. Different strokes, different folks! Isn't that part of our civilization and not just American?

KEEPSAKES

Some things you keep. Like good teeth. Warm coats. Bald husbands. They're good for you, reliable and practical and so sublime that to throw them away would make the garbage man a thief. So you hang on, because something old is sometimes better than something new, and what you know is often better than a stranger.

These are my thoughts, they make me sound old, old and tame and dull at a time when everybody else is risky and racy and flashing all that's new and improved in their lives. New careers, new thighs, new lips, new cars. The world is dizzy with trade-ins. I could keep track, but I don't think I want to.

I grew up in the fifties with practical parents - a mother, God bless her, who washed aluminum foil after she cooked in it, then reused it - and still does. A father who was happier getting old shoes fixed than buying new ones.

They weren't poor, my parents, they were just satisfied. Their marriage was good, their dreams focused. Their best friends lived barely a wave away.

I can see them now, Fifties couples in Bermuda shorts and Banlon sweaters, lawnmower in one hand, tools in the other. The tools were for fixing things - a curtain rod, the kitchen radio, screen door, the oven door, the hem in a dress. Things you keep. It was a way of life, and sometimes it made me crazy.

All that re-fixing, reheating, renewing, I wanted just once to be wasteful. Waste meant affluence. Throwing things away meant there'd always be more.

But then my father died, and on that clear autumn night, in the chill of the hospital room, I was struck with the pain of learning that sometimes there isn't any "more". Sometimes what you care about most gets all used up and goes away, never to return.

So, while you have it, it's best to love it and care for it and fix it when it's broken and heal it when it's sick. That's true for marriage and old cars and children with bad report cards and dogs with bad hips and aging parents. You keep them because they're worth it, because you're worth it.

There was no discrimination nor intolerance in my neighborhood while I was a youth, and my parents, who could barely speak English, never spoke negatively about other ethnic or racial groups.

I was friendly with the local Rabbi's children, and the chidren of members of his congregation, and was often welcomed into their homes during the depression, and shared their kosher food and stories with them, even though they knew I was a Christian.

One of my best friends was Jake Miller, son of a local junk dealer, who sold used furniture to the depression era families. Jake and I both enlisted after Pearl Harbor and took basic training together. Jake was killed in WW2, in Africa.

However, during basic training, we realized that there was much racial discrimination and intolerance prevalent throughout other areas of the country, as some of our fellow recruits demonstrated this.

Being of french descent, I was labelled as "a frog", Jake was jewish, so he was "a kike ". An Italian was "a wop", a German was "a kraut", a mexican was 'a spick', and there were other labels for other races and nationalities.

WW2 became the great melting pot, and after fighting through Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany and Austria against a common enemy, protecting each other's backs, we realized that the holocaust was caused by us all.

Never again would we be intolerant of others because of race, color or creed.

Pat

In spite of the fact that there was such a lack of jobs available in 1936 when I graduated from High School, I was able to get a job at the Grand Union Store for the marvelous salary of $7.00 for a 70 hour week, and was very grateful to the friend who got me the job.

  Money was very limited, and radio was just beginning to be received from transmitters broadcasting across the St. Lawrence River from Canada.

  My grandfather had purchased a radio, so we children found many excuses to visit grandpa, in order to listen to this marvelous invention.

  It was called an Atwater-Kent , and consisted of a long black box filled with tubes. It could be used either with head-phones or a huge horn speaker which sat on the top.

During WW2 my 3rd Infantry Division was trapped on the Anzio Beachead for 5 months.

  As a diversion from the continual artillery and mortar shell fire we were receiving, I was able to build a crystal radio receiver. I used 2 flashlight batteries, a razor blade, headphones and a piece of copper wire.

  With this equipment we could hear Axis Sally and the enemy propaganda, music and broadcasts from Rome.

  After WW2 I was able to build my first tv set from a kit, and I was amazed to realize how far technology had advanced during the four years I was away at war.

I look back on the years since my high school days with amazement. At that time there were no birth control pills, and no population explosion.

This was before TV, pencilin, polio shots, antibiotics and frisbees, before frozen foods,nylon, dacron xerox radar,fluorescent lights, credit cards and ballpoint pens.

Timesharing meant togetherness, not computers. Hardware meant hardware. Software was not even a word. Instant Coffee, McDonalds and Burger King were unheard of, and fast food was what we ate for Lent.

This was before FM radio, tape recorders, electric typewriters, word processors, electronic music, digital clocks and disco dancing. This was before the 40 hour week and the minimum wage.

We got married and then we lived together. Grass was mowed, coke was something you drank, and pot was something you cooked in.

In the mid-thirties there were no vending machines, jet planes, helicopters and interstate highways. "Made in Japan" meant junk, and "making out" referred to how you did on an exam.

In our time there were 5 and 10 cent stores where you could buy things for 5 or 10 cents. For just one dime you could ride the street car all day. For a nickle you could make a phone call, or buy a coke or ice cream cone or buy enough stamps to mail one letter and two post cards.

  During the depressionyou could buy a new Chevy coupe or a Ford Sedan for $659.00 but who could afford it? Nobody. Very sad, because gas was 11 cents a gallon.

  If anyone had asked us to explain CIA, NATO, UFO, NFL, JFK. or ERA we would have said, " that must be alphabet soup."

In the years that have transpired since I graduated, we have come from the horse and buggy age with the outside privies, kerosene lanterns, and all of the limitations, to the rocket age, where we now explore the outer limits of the universe.

  This evolution is the result of man's brainpower, Godpower, and faith in God's Grace, combined with man's inventiveness and ingenuity.

With God's help, nothing is impossible.

Pat Bruyere

During WW2,there were 450 African American pilots trained at Tuskegee, in Alabama.This was a Jim Crow Air Force OCS school.

This Group became the 332nd Fighter Group, and the black pilots were kept segregated from the white pilots by several miles, while they were providing escort service for the long range bombers of the Fifteenth Air Force, flying deep into Germany on bombing missions.

They got the nickname Lonely Eagles because they flew alone.   It was only after several missions that they were accepted as equal flying partners.

My brother George, who bailed out of his bomber after it was hit and caught fire while bombing Hitler's Eagle Nest at Berchtesgaden, gives much praise and admiration for the bravery and skill of the African American pilots of the 332 Fighter Group.

This Group flew B51 fighter planes, and were providing escort service to the 15th Air Force long range bombers, protecting them from enemy fighter attacks while they were on this bombing missions over Obersalzburg.

While George was descending in his parachute after bailing out, one of the enemy fighter planes kept circulating around him, shooting at him repeatedly, and wounding him severely.

Suddenly one of the Afro-American fighter pilots appeared, and engaged and shot down the enemy plane, and then flew around and protected George, until he hit the ground and was taken prisoner by the SS troops from the nearby garrison.

To this day George talks about how relieved he was to see the flash of white teeth on the dark skin of the fighter pilot, as he grinned and held his thumb up in a victory salute after the enemy fighter had been shot down.

George will always be grateful to that Afro- American for the extra years he has lived because of that fighter pilot's intervention

Pat 

• Belief systems involve stories, or myths, whose interpretation can give people insight into how they should feel, think, and/or behave.
• A value system differentiates right feelings, thoughts and behavior from wrong feelings, thoughts and behavior. Value systems can and very often do grow out of belief systems.

Civ-i-li-za-tionn.1 An advanced stage of development in the arts and sciences acccompanied by corresponding social, political, and cultural complexity. 2 The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch:the civilization of ancient Rome. 3 The act or process of civilizing or of reaching a civilized state. 4 Informal Modern society with its conveniences: return to civilization after camping

š jane›

We came to this country as young adults, bewildered by a great many things, even simple ones, and everybody asked us every day, "You like it here, don't you ?"

Actually, we did not; we were in culture shock and ate a lot of humble pie. But it would take too long to explain. So I won't try. I will say only that we felt lost, alone, and homesick. Somehow we got a GE record player for $35, I remember, and bought two records which we played over and over and over again --- we did not have a TV at that time.

I have been back regularly since; I took my son and daughter some years ago (before the wall fell) and more recently my son and his wife - and a very good time was had by all.

As for Americans abroad, in Europe specifically, I have one indelible memory : I was shopping for flowers one morning at an open market in a suburb of Zurich where many things were offered for sale, including Hummel figurines (to humor the tourists).

Suddenly a loud American voice made me turn and I beheld a tall American in a ten-gallon hat holding some object or other in his hand, asking, very loudly, "How much is that in real money ?"

"Real money?" Would that have been the dollar ? As it was, I felt ashamed and crept away.