Curious Minds ~ 2006 January Export

I thought this may be of interest to the posters on this board..

Federal Agents visit U.M senior for his research paper on Fascism/Totalit.

NEW BEDFORD -- A senior at UMass Dartmouth was visited by federal agents two months ago, after he requested a copy of Mao Tse-Tung's tome on Communism called "The Little Red Book."

Two history professors at UMass Dartmouth, Brian Glyn Williams and Robert Pontbriand, said the student told them he requested the book through the UMass Dartmouth library's interlibrary loan program.

The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism for Professor Pontbriand's class on fascism and totalitarianism, filled out a form for the request, leaving his name, address, phone number and Social Security number. He was later visited at his parents' home in New Bedford by two agents of the Department of Homeland Security, the professors said.

The professors said the student was told by the agents that the book is on a "watch list," and that his background, which included significant time abroad, triggered them to investigate the student further. "I tell my students to go to the direct source, and so he asked for the official Peking version of the book, " Professor Pontbriand said. "Apparently, the Department of Homeland Security is monitoring inter-library loans, because that's what triggered the visit, as I understand it.">>>>snip

This story appeared on Page A9 of The Standard-Times on December 17, 2005.

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09...

Jeriron1

Your post explains why even some of the Senate Repblicans are against the renewal of the Patriot Act.

I watched President Bush last night as he gave his reasons why the Pat Act should be kept. As I watched, I was struck by how tired he looked and how drawn his face seemed to be.

Bill H

jeriron, your post reminds me of the pre-internet days when a high school student brought The Anarchist's Cookbook to class, complete with instructions on how to make a bomb. He had seen an ad in a magazine -- I think Rolling Stone, but not sure -- and ordered it. What would the FBI say now?

I also remember from pre-I days, the story of a young man who wrote a book about how to make an atomic bomb. What was amazing was that he found all the information he needed publicly available from libraries and government sources. So what happens when people try to do these activities now?

Bill, you stated at the beginning of this discussion that you were watching Cspan 2 and explained that there was a plain old Cspan. Bill, there is Cspan 1 which gives eye to one side of Congress and Cspan 2 that gives eye to the other side of Congress in action. Our tax dollars pay for this. I do sit and watch this more and more. I want to know WHO votes HOW on issues. I am a voter who is influenced by their actions.

You asked if we should object to the pres.' violating our privacy. It is violating our Constitutional Right. And YES, I resent deeply, his violation of mine and everyones' priavacy without due process, as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.

By now, you are aware that the ext. of the Patriot Act failed in the senate. I wonder how many of you do as I do and take the time to email and call the D.C. offices of your senators/house reps. when issued are up for vote about your feelings? I do. I find them very open to calls. We had better all exercise this right to voice our opinion on issues that touch us all, or we will lose the freedom to do so. Remember, we elected them to represent US on the hill. Do they ? Check them out.

Thanks for this timely and important CM discussion .With government it has always seemed to me that if you give them an inch they will take a mile.

I havent had time yet to read the links but I have seen a lot of the decisions ( as I am sure all of you have as well) we used to make without government interference slip away. And that bothers me .once we agree that helpful things can be legislated than it seems that suggestions become law and we have lost the freedom to make decisions based on the the time , the place, amd our good sense.

Will be back when I can read the links ..thanks again . anna

Jeriron1, Your post about the student being visited by the Federal Gov't agents is frightening. I think this is the type of incident that frightens most Americans. Thank you for the link. AnnaFair, I fear the gov't, if not stopped, will take larger and larger steps. Finally, sitting at our dinner tables and monitoring our private conversations. AliceA, thank you. I will do more than vote.Pedln, it's unbelievable that antiwar protestors should find themselves investigated. What happened to Freedom of Speech?

I am afraid of the actions of the terrorists too. Isn't there a better way to handle our fears? We are not just afraid of a bogeyman. We have seen what terroists can do. We have seen it here in the U.S. We have seen it in London and other places. How do you investigate these people without ruining the good citizens freedoms?

C-Span channels 1 thru 4 is paid for by cable companies and a 5 cent fee charged to cable subscribers. No government funds are involved. C-Span is not expected to be profitable, and isn't, since it has no advertizing. It is a information service provided to the American people (or anyone anywhere in the world having a satellite dish) by private enterprise and subscriber funds.

Also if you read the link you probably noticed that the Professor was going to have a class on Terrorism and now is reconsidering because he doesn't want to get any of his students in trouble. That is pretty sad when people in this country have to worry about what they do and say for fear they will have law enforcment at their door.

There has been people being photographed while protesting the war. Some of the groups that were protesting were.. Grandmothers For Peace, Grandparents Against the War and Veterans For Peace. Can you imagine these groups most of them in their 60s, 70s, and even older being terrorists? This remark that some people use "if you didn't do anything wrong why worry about it" shows that they have no concept of what this country is about. We as a people should always be concerned about what is happening to everyone not just themselves.

I have often heard that remark too.

Was it government fundred in the beginning. Don't know where I got that idea. Not contradicting you. Have to ask myself where that info. came from (tax dollars paid for it).

Alice,Thank you for telling me about the two sides of Cspan. I'm with you on knowing what our reps are doing. And you can call the local office of your representatives even if they are in WDC because your message is relayed to them. Most reps depend on these letters and phone call and e-mails to get a feel of what their constituents want them to do.

Anna, when you say "give them an inch and they take a mile," Our reps know most voters are not aware of what is going on. This shows at the voting sites. How many citizens are aware the Patriot Act is being discussed in congress or, for that matter, even care?

What I find amazing is the number of citizens who don't exercise the right to vote, to say nothing of those who never bother to register.

Hats, I believe a much better way to handle our fears of terrorists is to secure our borders. How many terrorist slip across the borders unnoticed ?.

Bill H

"We as a people should always be concerned about what is happening to everyone not just themselves."

Jerrion, how true that is.

"Today me." Tomorrow you."

Bill H

Pedlin, your post shows how fighting the Internet can be.

Bill H

when the Vice President of the United States personally lobbys the U.S. Senate trying to convince them to allow the CIA to have an exception which would exclude them from laws pertaining to torture interegations of prisoners. Thank God we still have integrity in that body of leaders. McCain made Bush see the light. Isn't this nation operating on a slippery slope where the Constitution is being pushed aside more and more? Where dissenters to what is going on are labeled as unpatriotic persons who need to be spied on? How can this nation teach others about democracy when ours is slowly disappearing? losalbern

If my congressional members are in D.C. I call there inthat I have a cell phone with free long distance.I recall a lesson my dad taught me when I registered to vote, a very long time ago,lol. He told me...Always study your candidates and make your own decision. Vote because it is not only a right but a responsibility.I never miss a vote. In 2004, my county had a 70% turn out. They stood outside in lines in the rain. That was amazing. Voter apathy is troubling to me, as well. I don't have the answer. I use to be active in the election process in this state and voting was something many more did.

We always have around a 70% turnout in our elections nationwide. I told my kids when they got old enough to vote to take the privilege seriously. Ordinary people died to get us the vote!

How many civil liberties have to be lost before it gets clear that bin Laden's effort to destroy US democracy has been successful?

That is so true about the borders. I wonder why it is so difficult to keep people from sneaking through the borders.

I looked at the news conference with President Bush yesterday. Right or wrong I think he had more poise and confidence yesterday. He almost swayed me to his side about his reasons for the war and his positive feelings about the Patriot Act.

According to him, he is going by the Constitution. Another thing Pres. Bush keeps saying this is a new type of war. A war where these people use telephones. Is it possible that I am living in the past? Is it possible that my old way of thinking could never understand the need to bug the telephones of private citizens?

I don't think Bin Laden has been successful, at least, not in every way. We haven't suffered another 9/11 attack. The White House is still standing, none of our government officials have lost their lives yet. I don't think Bin Laden has been successful. I just think he is successful at causing us to shake in our boots, but we aren't dead yet. We are still fighting. We still have a Democracy.

We don't have to receive an attack for bin Laden to succeed. All we have to do is crumble internally. The Roman Empire didn't fall from an attack.

Robby

It scares me when I hear people interviewed who feel that the actions that Bush has taken are warranted. He has played to everyone's fears to bypass the system of checks and balances that this country's founders felt were so important to a true democracy.

The oft-quoted Benjamin Franklin deserves repeating here: "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

Robby: I have agreed with you since 9/11. As I watched what has happened, the things that we have done out of fear, I realized that there doesn't have to be one single new terrorist attack on this country. The terrorists have already achieved their objective--destroying the very fabric of American life.

My son brought me a book last week called Digital Fortress and is by Dan Brown. I have been reading it this week and it scares me to death that this was written in the late nineties and the mind set of some of the Directors of the NSA (in the book) is exactly like we see in Bush re: Sunday speech. And terrible things are happening in the book because of this. Of course it is all fiction and yet real life is so much following what lots of fiction writers have portrayed. Ways we can lose our Freedom ..we can give up Civil Liberties gradually and wake up one day in a Fascist State. It has happened before to much older political systems than ours. We are so new ....only 300 years old. I pray we can become a thousand year free Republic, with all states taking up the banner to keep the federal government in line. faith

I have been saying for a very long time now that I finally understand how Hitler was able to come to power, why good people "did nothing" -- because it is slow and insidious and you feel so helpless to do anything effective. And then you become frightened of speaking out because you see what happens to innocent people around you. I wrote a journal entry while back about the administration and had e-mails from people who said they agreed with me but were afraid to speak out, and applauding me for my "bravery." That scares me a lot--that this is the atmosphere under which we are living.

I think you are both right. I think it does happen gradually, the taking of our Civil Liberties. It's amazing how wrong can seem so right.

I understand what Robby is saying too.

This afternoon, I heard a clip of Bush himself, speaking in 2004, where he said, and I sort-of quote... "You have to understand that wiretapping requires prior authorization. That's in the constitution. I want to assure the American people that nothing has changed."

Now it's conservative republican Bob Barr who is calling for an immediate bipartisan investigation of whether or not the President broke the law, and conservative republican John Sununu who is quoting Ben Franklin.

What scares me a lot is that on this same call-in show a guy said that in these times of terrorism, he saw nothing whatsoever wrong with the President ignoring the law, if he felt it necessary. He couldn't be convinced that even though all the steps were in place for the President to comply with the law and he chose to ignore it that there was anything wrong with that.

This is the attitude which has allowed Bush to come to power and is permitting the gradual erosion of our cherished rights. The administration has created an atmosphere of fear where people are willing to do anything possible to avoid another attack.

Now. Tell me. What kind of democracy and freedom are we trying to sell to the Iraqis????

I must compliment all of you for the powerful messages you have placed here.

Jeriron, you wrote:"That is pretty sad when people in this country have to worry about what they do and say for fear they will have law enforcement at their door."

Yes, it is a sad day. I never thought I would see this happen in the USA.

Bill H

Hats, when you posted this:

"That is so true about the borders. I wonder why it is so difficult to keep people from sneaking through the borders."

I went searching for something about our insecure borders and the following post reflects what I came up with. Thank you for jogging my mind about the situation.

Bill H

Internal Crumbling

I feel that illegal immigration can very well succeed in causing an internal crumbling of our nation. This past Sunday a TV talk show reported there are over eleven million illegal aliens in our country and there is no way we can physically deport them. HOW MANY TERRORIST enter the country this way? Imagine over eleven million!

Heather Mac Donald writes a fine account about this in the City Journal. You can read her article by visiting

“we can’t turn off the flow”

But we better turn off the flow, if we wish to prevent terrorist from infiltrating our nation. All the travel security in the world goes for nothing if we don't address the security of our borders.

Bill H

Even though the "undocumented" workers have no health benefits, hospitals cannot deny them emergency care and the administrators of these health facilities claim they don't have the finances to cope with this unfunded healthcare. The children of these illegals must be allowed to attend public school. The burden of which is placed on the taxpayer. A crumbling? More like an avalanche.!

This is kind of a two edged sword. While I agree that the solution is to protect the borders and to send the illegals back home again, do we really want to deny them health care and keep the kids out of school? Until the illegals have all been sent back to their home countries, would you rather that the establishment pick up the financial burden or would you rather have contagious people wandering the streets, and children, especially adolescents, with nothing to do during the day but get into trouble? I have heard it said that people are irate that children of illegal aliens are given vaccinations at taxpayer expense...but do we really want UNvaccinated children potentially spreading diseases which we eradicated decades ago?

I'm not advocating anything except dealing with the problem that is here now untill we can get rid of the problem entirely. It is in our own best interest to keep everyone in this country healthy and to give children something to do during the day!

I've been reading, but not commenting - but I have to make one now. Certainly illegal immigration is a problem. Certainly having to provide medical care and schooling for illegals is a problem.

In my opinion, the way to attack the problem is at the source - the people and organizations who hire these people. They wouldn't be here if the employers would refuse to hire undocumented workers. To me, any solution has to begin with making it prohibitively expensive for anyone to hire a worker who is illegally in this country.

But nobody is talking about doing that.

ok. illegal aliens. Why not just open the borders entirely. I see a line on the map and people on one side who want to work at the jobs that are available on the other side. . . if they came in at regular crossings with proper ID etc. they would be less of a burden and less of a threat than they are sneaking over at night through the desert, and maybe not even making it. These borders create the problem, don't solve it. . . .Claire

Winsum, I have always tended to agree that our border with Mexico should be open like it was in the old days. Mexicans came and went. Some to visit, some to work, but they mostly all lived in Mexico and went back home in between. Maybe someone could research it, but it seems to me that it worked better back then.

The way it is now, men (usually) come here at great risk, leaving wives and children in a fatherless home in Mexico, sending their wages back to keep the family going.

As for proper ID, there is no such thing nowadays. False papers can be aquired by anyone. And, punishing the employers is the right way to go if you really want to stop Mexicans coming here for work. But employers have a lot of clout in Washington. You won't find any legislation targeted at employers anytime soon, if ever. Show me an employer that won't jump at cheap (exploitable) labor, legal or illegal, and I'll show you an employer that lives six feet under in a cemetery.

It takes a certain basic amount of money to live decently in the USA, to pay taxes, get health care, obtain a decent education. The people responsible for paying these wages are the employers. If the employers are permitted to gain by not giving their workers enough to live and pay for their social obligations, then society in general will suffer to enrich the people responsible for paying the wages. Actions have consequences. If a business cannot survive except by underpaying its workers, it does not deserve to survive. No business would demand to survive by not paying its suppliers, its rent, its taxes. Why should its workers not also be adequately compensated?

MaryZ, that is the answer! To me it seems like such a simple answer and the best answer. I don't know why I didn't think of it. The employers are the first people who really get any information, whether true or false, about these people. How easy, it would seem to me for business employers to do something about the problem.

The only problem is that business employers, I guess, are looking out for their own interests and that is cheap labour. Are these business people thinking about the country's interest first or their own profit margins first?

Bill H, thank you for the link. It's a very interesting article. I didn't realize there were so many illegal aliens in the U.S. I hear President Bush talk about Iraq and Saddam Hussein. For four years and more I haven't heard him say much, I don't think, about the illegal aliens. It's like President Bush thinks terrorists are only born in Iraq. He hardly addresses Afghanistan either. Maybe he has only so many hours in a day. If that's his problem, he better get cracking. We do have a avalanche on our hands.

again I say You have picked a HOT TOPIC ...And I can see both sides but I am on the side of the people IT seems to me we are IN THE AGE OF BIG BROTHER...and that scares me .. I did think the other day are we being old fashioned when we think it is wrong to monitor new ways to communicate when terrorist are using them..It just scares me to think any benefits from new ways to communicate ( like computers and our ability to talk to each other so easily) can also be used against us. It is easy for people in power to cross the line because they are in power and it is easy to rationalize that we are all served by an abuse of power. We are told it is for our own good and we trust our politicians to do the RIGHT THING but I have a senior friend who is 75 , blind in one eye he lost in Korea , who suffers from cancer and other infirmities who flying home to see his family in Iowa was asked to remove his belt since it had metal eyelets in it .. it was hard for his athritic hands to do this and then have to put it back through the loops in his trousers, he was asked to remove his tennis shoes since they had metal arch supports while many younger men walked by without having to remove their shoes NOW is this man a possible terrorist ..? and no one helped him ..When he flew home for Christmas he asked me to make him a sort of belt which I did ..I used some brown cloth and sewed him a sort of bathrobe belt but very handsome ..he had no problem this time but to me there are so many things being done in the name of security that is dumb ..and he felt he couldnt complain because if he had he felt he would have been detained for not complying FRANKLY THAT SCARES ME I am not reassured that only phone calls from terrorist to American citizens are being monitored .. because power is a heady thing ...even if the President says and believes and only wants terrorist phone calls monitored what about the people doing it ? Are they going to monitor someone that isnt even a possible terrorist just because they can?

And I agree if employers paid American citizens what they should there would be no need for illegals...and it isnt just the illegals in shops but homes How often have we seen POLITICIANS hiring illegals for maids, housekeepers, even nannies and say they dont know ? SURE THEY KNOW there are times when I am glad I am a senior citizen because I wont see us slide into a world I never dreamed could happen .. I fear for my children but mostly for my grandchildren ..I guess I need to stop but the whole thing is just so full of terrible possibilities it makes me ill. anna

there are times when I am glad I am a senior citizen because I wont see us slide into a world I never dreamed could happen .. I fear for my children but mostly for my grandchildren ..I guess I need to stop but the whole thing is just so full of terrible possibilities it makes me ill. anna

You expressed my feelings perfectly, anna. This is the only time since my children reached adulthood that I've been glad I don't have grandchildren.

Last several days, Mexico's Fox is ranting and raving about the prospect of a wall being built to stop the illegals. He has hired well paid Lawyers, and Publicity Firms, etal...to impress Congress, and convinced them to defeat such Laws. No Wall for him.....keep those Borders open, and cash coming in.

If he would spend his money on his own country's economy, and cared anything at all about their own history, he'd go a long way toward solving the problem. Of course, he is furious....more money flows into Mexico from the US than from any other source. The people that enter HIS country illegally, just pass on through and come into the US. No problem for him, but we are courting disaster to allow it.

All Fox cares about is: Let the workers go, and send that money home....and don't think they don't do it.

Even from the low salaries they make here. The people that hire the Illegals put the excess cash in their own pocket, it's hardly shared with the rest of the country. Maybe if the Employers had to provide schools for the children and Insurance for the wives maternity bills, they might sing a different tune.

When I was growing up here, I knew ONE (1) Hispanic family. We had one boy in our class with a wonderful name and great personality. Actually, we'd never heard the word Hispanic, he called himself a Mexican boy, and his family had been here longer than anyone I knew. Now the school we went to is over half, nearer 2/3rds Hispanic, and I assure you, few of them are Legal.

A few years back, someone in my family had a 3 bdrm mobile home on an acreage outside of town. It was empty and fairly new. It was rented to a nice little Hispanic couple with two kids. Shortly after that, we discovered there were between 20-25 of them living there. At the same time, a certain local restaurant got in trouble for hiring Illegals, and it was discovered they were letting them live in boxes outside, behind the business. Since some of "our" renters worked there, we had no trouble getting the Mobile home emptied out....you can guess what shape it was in. End of topic.

Amnesty? If they are illegal, send them all home, and let them sign up to come back for Citizenship or a workers program. Period.

I am sure that if we flowed into Mexico expecting and demanding the same privileges we are forced to provide, Fox would build the fence himself.

Sorry, my patience is gone.

Sun

Amnesty? If they are illegal, send them all home, and let them sign up to come back for Citizenship or a workers program. Period.

I have mixed feelings about this. One of our students, from Brasil, came from a bad situation in his country, moved to the states and lived here illegally for many years. He tried every avenue possible to become legal, but he had neither the money nor the reason--and he was gay, so marriage to an American was not possible.

During this time he held down 3 jobs, using a false social security number, and paid taxes. I don't know how he got away with it, but he was definitely a contributing member of society who desperatey wanted to live in this country but found the door closed to him.

He has since left the U.S. and is living in Europe.

Steve Breen's Cartoon about the Patriot Act.

cartoon

"This is kind of a two edged sword."

BevSkes, I sympathize with what you say. However, as one US Senator pointed out, it would be physically impossible to deport eleven million illegals. Hospitals would be hard put to deny illegals emergency treatment. And the youths of these illegals have already formed gangs and are committing mayhem in our cities. These illegals want more than just elementary school education they also want the right to be eligible to receive scholarships to our universites, and vote because they contribute to the economy of our nation. Can you imagine that. Such gall.

Several months ago, I watched on TV a news commentator reporting that the illegals' union president (oh yes, they have a union) said that if they don't receive the right to vote they could boycott the retail stores in California and send our economy into a tailspin.

"In my opinion, the way to attack the problem is at the source - the people and organizations who hire these people."

Mary Z and Jan Sand, you make a fine point of zeroing in on the people who hire the illegals. If I'm not mistaken, a bill has been introduced in the House of Representatives to make it a felony for anybody to hire illegal aliens.

Anna, yes, the grand children are the ones I fear most far. What is it going to be like for them in another twenty or twenty-five years? I feel we seniors had the best of times. I never imagined a day like this would come.

"All Fox cares about is: Let the workers go, and send that money home....and don't think they don't do it.

Sunknow, oh yes, they send the money home.

I watched the CNN six o'clock news. Rep Tom Tancredo, Colorado, reported that the illegals sent twenty BILLION a year back to Mexico. Well then, it is not surprising President Fox doesn't want a wall. Tancredo also reported that Fox was trying to enlist international help to influence Congress not to build a wall. Tancredo was highly incensed that a foreign president was interfering with congressional activity.

Bill H

Pat, an appropriate cartoon for this time of year. As I viewed it, I couldn't help but wonder what the "ghost" of illegal wiretaps future might bring.

The ghost presented a very good likeness to Nixon.

Bill H

The last report I heard about reauthorizing the Patriot Act:

The Senate was filibustering the vote on reauthorization of the law, which will expire on December 31st. The House of Representatives voted to renew the law. This morning I watched President Bush denounce this procedure in the Senate.

You can read about

Filibuster

Bill H

You wrote that one of your students was a gay illegal and try as he might he couldn't gain citizenship. Well, he committed a felony by entering the country. And why should he go ahead the people waiting patiently to receive citizenship?

Actually, he entered the country legally. He just didn't go home when it was time.

The subject of international gay relationships is really a tricky one. I can tell you of countless couples who have the misfortune to be in love with someone from another country, and they can't live legally in either country. One lesbian couple of my acquaintance are from different countries and fell in love while the foreigner was attending university in this country. They have exhausted all avenues to get her permanent residency here and she must either leave the country or remain illegally. The American's mother is ill and the woman is forced to either leave her ill mother to be with the woman with whom she had formed a partnership, or leave the woman she loves to remain and care for her mother.

That situation is not fair.

Your story about your friend is very moving. This is what is so sad. It is the innocent who suffer more than the people who want to cause destruction.

This act has now been extended for six months.

Howzat,

I heard that it had been extended this morning. It blindsided me. I did not expect an extension.

I wonder what happened to all those conservative republicans who were also appalled at the extension of the act.

"That situation is not fair"

BevSkyes, well, the situation is pathetic. However, it is the law of the land. And it has often been noted that we are a nation of laws.

Howzat, yes, I saw on TV the Pat Act had been extended for six months. This is good because it will give congress time to determine which provisions the act should retain or, better yet, the articles that should be eliminated.

Hats and BevSkyes, I'm sure those conservative republicans realize the awful potential of this act or perhaps the Whitehouse tweaked a few noses. As I previously wrote this gives congress time to enact a better law. Sometimes "the cure is worse than the illness."

Bill H

When shopping at Wal-Mart, K-Mart, etc, in order to use the ATM gadget at the check out counter I must chose between English or Espanola. There are times when I make a phone call I receive a voice automated message telling me to press one for English or press two for Espanola. Now this gets my dander up. I can understand a voice telling me to press two if I wish to use Espanola. But, since English is the primary language of our nation why should I choose?

There are Polish, German, Italian and other non-English speaking people living in our country. Well, that being the case, should the automated voice tell us to press three for Polish, four for German, five for Italian or stay on the line and you will be connected with a linguist.

Bill H

As I understand it, the Patriot Act may not be extended for the 6 months. I think the House has made an alternate proposal to extend for only 1 month, to be taken up when Congress reconvenes on Feb. 5.

There are people in the Congress in both parties who would like to alter some of the provisions of the Patriot Act--a very good idea, IMO. If the House gets their way, it may curtail any amendments or alterations--but if the Senate measure is approved, that will run into election campaigns and will be a problem, too.

There are too many provisions in that Act which are detrimental to the spirit of our Constitution, particularly our Civil liberties. Some measures may be necessary, but the ones which give the Executive Branch authority to act without warrants or consent of Congress pose a danger to our American Democracy. Unfortunately, the current administration seems to feel that any of us who dislike unwarranted spying on our citizens is not a Patriot. I say Phooey! I am as patriotic as the next person--as I think most Seniors are. We just want to be sure that our Executive Branch, Legislative Branch, and Judicial Branch are maintaining a check on each other so that there will not be dictatorial powers in any branch. I'm still upset about the legality of War in Iraq. Sue

Perhaps a quote from Mark Twain would be appropriate here:

"Patriotism means being loyal to your country all the time, and to its government when it deserves it."

At the close of business today, the House supported only a five week extension of the Patriot Act, as SpringCreek already said in # 61, and the Senate is expected to follow suit in the morning. Tomorrow at this time we will know what happened.

BILL, I'm glad we have the opportunity to freely voice our opinion here. Thank you for having suggested this important topic.

Thanks for posting it.

Here's a link to an article about the 5 week extension which passed with an almost empty chamber tonight. http://apnews.myway.com//article/20051223/D8ELLS0G5.html

Here's hoping all our Congress will give serious thought to this Act during the holidays and will come back with the good intentions of doing what is best for our citizens. Sue

Truade, you are right. In a photo finish, our representative government agreed to a five week extension on the Patriot Act. I was behind the curve when I said it was six months, cause after that, some other stuff happened. I've had C-span on for days. I've been so worried about drilling in the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge, which was denied yet again (but it's champions will be back next year).

SpringCreekFarm, thank you for the link. I learned from that. The following is an excerpt from the Laurie Kellman's article

"Congress can pass legislation with only a few lawmakers present as long as no member of the House or Senate objects. The Senate session lasted four minutes."

I was under the impression that a quorum in both bodies of congress was necessary to vote up or down a bill.

Traude, so far we do have the right to freely voice our opinion. I hope it continues.

I watched CNN this morning and the commentator reported that some parts of the Patriot Act are permanent. The ones being considered for modification deal with the rights of privacy. How confusing.

Bill H

By using the link,(an easy read) you can read what the Attorney General and Rudy Giuliani, and others have to say about the Patriot Act.

The United States Department of Justice

I'm sure this law does makes law enforcement much easier, but at what price.

Bill H

I have been asked what additional measures the Patriot Act provides law enforcement that was not available prior to the enactment of the Bill. I have posted below a link that will take you to an easy to read page that highlights the additional measures the law provides.

Additional Measures Provided

Bill H

And to all, a good night. Seems like I read that somewhere. I really don't understand all this fuss about "Happy Holiday" versus "Merry Christmas" Why does it have to be "Versus"? We have enjoyed both for as long as I have been around. I think this nation has developed a "Versus" complex about damned near everything and it seems to me we operate better united. Any way, see you in church! losalbern

The following is one of the very good points of the Patriot Act. Now law enforcement agencies must share the information they possess.

"2. The Patriot Act facilitated information sharing and cooperation among government agencies so that they can better "connect the dots." The Act removed the major legal barriers that prevented the law enforcement, intelligence, and national defense communities from talking and coordinating their work to protect the American people and our national security. The government's prevention efforts should not be restricted by boxes on an organizational chart. Now police officers, FBI agents, federal prosecutors and intelligence officials can protect our communities by "connecting the dots" to uncover terrorist plots before they are completed. As Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.) said about the Patriot Act, "we simply cannot prevail in the battle against terrorism if the right hand of our government has no idea what the left hand is doing." (Press release, 10/26/01)"

Bill H

Bill H, alas this is still not the case (as Katrina and Rita proved). All all the while that big disasters come intermittantly, smaller ones occur all the time, and newspaper reports of these smaller incidents show that faulty communication is still one of the primary reasons for things turning out worse than they should have.

The hearings in Washington have pointed out the fact that "being able to talk across agency lines" four years later is still mostly a hope.

I wonder how many people have actually read this terrible thing that is in the hands of who...

Howzat

What you say is so true. Katrina and Rita showed how woefully lacking our government is in disaster preparedness. I dread to think what might happen if the Avian (bird flue) finds it way to our nation. It will be chaos.

Max123

In answer to your question, I'm sure the vast majority of citizens have never read the act. Worse yet, I don't even think that vast majority even knows what it means. Evidence of that fact is the small unlimber of post we have had here. The links in the heading take us to the full transcript of the act and another link takes us to a simple explanation of it. I wonder how many have even bothered to read that simple explanation.

However, politicians depend on the ignorance of the general population.

Bill H

Bill H, has a lot to do with the lack of interest. Most people here on SeniorNet are normal everyday folks that lead lawful lives. They figure that these statutes that are for the control of criminals or terrorists couldn't possibly have anything to do with them. So they tune out when the subject comes up. Except maybe the "library card" thing. There, too, you'll find a majority of folks saying to one another, "Well, I don't have anything to hide about what I read".

You have done what you could, Bill. No one can ask more than that. Thank you.

Where ignorance walks, danger lurks. I made up that adage. Howzat's post made me think of those few words. Being in a comfort zone is very dangerous. If it's too warm, you just fall asleep.

Bill H, I am also glad that you have tried to wake us up. Like Traude wrote, I am glad we can speak freely here. I am learning so much about this Patriot Act.

You have done the best you could ...you offered a discussion on one of the most important acts and gave us links and explanations for all ...modern techniques are a mixed bag and while they can be used for the good of all As seniors I think we have seen the other side as well...every good thing in the end always depends on the honesty and integrity of those who use them or administer them. anna

I have been reading through the Slate overview of the Patriot Act. One thing that bothers me a lot (well, the whole thing bothers me) concerns the access to records. Right now they can go fishing for library book rentals. somewhere it also mentions access to medical records without prior authorization. Having worked in a medical office that was in the process of setting up the new HIPAA regulations, protecting a patient's right to privacy, the notion that someone could access medical records without prior authorization is abhorent to me.

The problem with this is if it all turns into fishing for possible irregularities anywhere. What sorts of very personal, totally un-threatening things could be uncovered in a fishing expedition? A life-threatening illness? an abortion? a sexual orientation someone is trying to keep in the closet? a sexual relationship that is nobody's business but the two people involved. a psychiatric history in the past? membership in an organization such as Alcoholics Anonymous?

I find the danger in this Act in the long view. There are those who argue that this is necessary to protect the country. We have only the word of the government that other 9/11s have been averted--and I have seen too much government manipulation of information to believe everything that comes out of an administration, no matter which party is in power (which is a pretty sad commentary).

Expanding the powers of the Patriot Act and making them permanent changes the personal freedoms that this country was founded on. It makes us no longer "the land of the free," but "the land of the watched," where we have to watch our backs at all times, even if we are law-abiding citizens.

I keep a daily on-line journal where I periodically rail against things I find upsetting in the government. Lately I've been getting e-mails from people who agree with me but who are afraid to speak out for fear of reprisals. In this, the land of the free where free speech is protected. I admit that sometimes I, too, feel uncomfortable writing what I feel and posting it publicly. I hate that this is what we have come to in this country.

Perhaps, in conjunction with studying The Patriot Act, we should all read 1984 again and see how well science fiction and potential reality are beginning to mesh.

Howzat

"it doesn't really affect me" syndrome."

You hit the nail right on the head. But to coin a warning phrase: "Today me. Tomorrow you." Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think that phrase surfaced during the Holocaust.

Hats

"Where ignorance walks, danger lurks."

How right you are. And this is pointed up in the relatively small turn out of voters in our own election. A few years ago I was speaking with a manager of a restaurant who complaining about the Clinton administration. During our conversation I asked him who he voted for. His reply was: I don't vote." I replied: Then you have no business complaining!

Anna

"...every good thing in the end..."

That reminded me of a gent I worked with eons ago who would say: "All good things must come to an end" I hope that is not the case with our right of freedom.

Bill H

Thank you. Perhaps we all learned something.

Bill H

BevSkyes

…"Lately I've been getting e-mails from people who agree with me but who are afraid to speak out for fear of reprisals…."

Perhaps this fear of reprisals have contributed to the limited number of participants in this forum.

I often wonder if this law permit’s the monitoring of our website.

Bev, that was a very good post.

Bill H

"Section 215, aka "Attack of the Angry Librarians"
Section 215 is one of the surprising lightning rods of the Patriot Act, engendering more protest, lawsuits, and congressional amendments than any other. In part this is because this section authorizes the government to march into a library and demand a list of everyone who's ever checked out a copy of My Secret Garden but also because those librarians are tough.
What it does:
Section 215 modifies the rules on records searches. Post-Patriot Act, third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism"

Please think of this this the next time you request a book from your library, go to chuch, synagogue, or mosque

Bill H

We are a senior group and I would say we most likely are scrutinized because as a rule we speak our minds but I have thought recently why would anyone want to read what we think Are we with all the ills that flesh is heir to likely to be terrorists or criminals of any kind...what about young people trying to learn about things should thier reading lists be scrutinized for content in case they are reading how to make a bomb or some other suspicious theme? I feel knowing your library choices could be easily misconstrued and the next thing would be a knock at the front door demanding a search of your home for supposed terrorist material. To me this is like my 75 year old friend with heart problems, limited mobility , arthritis being asked to remove his belt and shoes when he was trying to board a plane to go home to see his family and his fear of saying no because then he would most likely be incarcerated and have to obtain a lawyer etc..if I knew all of this would and could prevent terrorists I am not sure I would still want it ..I just think this is a slippery slope and not limited to one government party My one brother used to say about politicians THEY ARE ALL RASCALS ...alas I used to laugh at him but now I fear he may be right ./anna

When governments inaugurate wholesale changes in laws governing the mobility, thought and actions of a populace, it sends red flags to the top of flagpoles. People react immediately.

But, if these changes are small and incremental, it is probable that only the most alert will notice. And being a smaller voice these "alert" bellweathers will not be heeded.

Not only governments depend on this reaction to small changes. Corporations and religious organizations do too. When the object is behavior control, the long term is always used over the short term.

Pay strict attention, my friends, to the SPIN. More often than not these small changes are flying under a false flag, ie, "we (the government) keep things secret so that terrorists won't be able to know our strategy".

Remember, all tyrants and dictators got into positions of absolute power by telling the people, "You are in a bad situation, here. I will fix it", till one day the people all woke up to find they had been duped, one small change at a time.

First you render powerless the dissidents. And, how do you do this? Let me count the ways . . .

Howzat, your message reminded me of a medical office I worked for which was taken over by an HMO. The doctors who owned this office took great pride in the way they practiced medicine and negotiations for what would happen after the take over went on for a long time. In the end, the business was sold, with only very minor changes being made in how things always were. Within 6 months, there were a few more changes, and then a few more. Nobody at the top tried to rush anything. They were all incremental changes, but by the end of five years, nobody could recognize what had once been unquestionably the best office in this small town, and now had short appointments, long waiting lists, disgruntled patients, doctors who came and went quickly because they hated working there. in short, we had become a run of the mill HMO. All in small increments.

Also, they had purchased several office at once and by the end of 3 years, every single office manager, who was dedicated to the doctors for whom he or she worked had been replaced with a "company man" who was there to facilitate the changes that the home office wanted to make and didn't care a whit about the quality that the doctors hoped to preserve.

"Slippery Slope" is a very apt description.

I think, perhaps, that there has not been much posting here because those of us who question the Patriot Act are fearful of what some of our SeniorNet associates might say to us. Do you visit the political discussions? There are some vicious posts there both pro and con. It's too bad, really, because this is a thought provoking subject for "Curious Minds".

IMO, many minds are not curious, just ready to jump all over those who disagree with them--and these same folks do not tolerate questions about this act or the practices of this administration regarding this act. Our government was founded on the need for citizens to question authority. Why has this concept been lost to many Americans? That is why we have been a free society for many years. Sue

Sue

You ask:

"Why has this concept been lost to many Americans? That is why we have been a free society for many years."

Well, many of our citizens have lost interest in government. Perhaps they are more concerned about everyday living and family matters--rightly so. Both spouse are working in order to pay mortgage, car payments and education for the children.

I look around my neighborhood in the morning and see no morning newspapers. Who has time to read them? The ratings for TV broadcast network news has fallen dramatically in the last ten years or so. I don't know the ratings for cable network news programs. I suppose what I'm trying to say, and not doing a very good job of it, is the working class has little time to keep informed of what government is doing other than those interested in party politics. I guess I can't blame them much. Their priority lay with other values.

Then we have those who have been turned off by government. Sad to say, I guess I can't blame them either.

Bill H

Bill H, I haven't commented much - mostly just lurking. You just posted

Perhaps they are more concerned about everyday living and family matters--rightly so. Both spouse are working in order to pay mortgage, car payments and education for the children.

Some of this is indeed true. But our adult children fit your description almost to a T, and none have lost interest in government or in what's going on in the world. They all vote, read newspapers and news magazines, argue amongst themselves and others. And their children do, too.

I don't know why some people seem to "opt out" of paying attention and caring about what's going on in the world. John and I worked for many years as election officials at our polling place. Many times, I've said to a complainer - if you don't vote, don't complain!

I hate it that people who genuinely care about what happens in the world cannot disagree with civility. Just because someone doesn't agree with you about a specific act or philosophy does not necessarily make that person evil. Wouldn't it be a dull world if we all WERE exactly alike!

The following appears to be the most controversial of the law.

" The law before and how it changed:
Previously the government needed at least a warrant and probable cause to access private records. The Fourth Amendment, Title III of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, and case law provided that if the state wished to search you, it needed to show probable cause that a crime had been committed and to obtain a warrant from a neutral judge. Under FISA—the 1978 act authorizing warrantless surveillance so long as the primary purpose was to obtain foreign intelligence information—that was somewhat eroded, but there remained judicial oversight. And under FISA, records could be sought only "for purposes of conducting foreign intelligence" and the target "linked to foreign espionage" and an "agent of a foreign power." Now the FBI needs only to certify to a FISA judge—(no need for evidence or probable cause) that the search protects against terrorism. The judge has no authority to reject this application. DOJ calls this "seeking a court order," but it's much closer to a rubber stamp. Also, now the target of a search needn't be a terror suspect herself, so long as the government's purpose is "an authorized investigation ... to protect against international terrorism"

I suppose the time saving element of a warrant less surveillance could be a valid argument

Bill H

The judge has no authority to reject this application.

Making the whole idea of submitting an application merely a formality. Whatever happened to that "system of checks and balances" ?

The thing about FISA, I heard Joe Biden (one of the people who drafted it) say is that it allows you to go ahead and conduct your search and get permission afterwards, so it seems that the provisions are there in the law, but this administration just doesn't want to follow the law at all.

re your: I hate it that people who genuinely care about what happens in the world cannot disagree with civility. Just because someone doesn't agree with you about a specific act or philosophy does not necessarily make that person evil. Wouldn't it be a dull world if we all WERE exactly alike!

I agree fully. I am active politically on the local level and have worked in past local, state and national political campaigns. I'd hate to tell you what some of my "friends" and "neighbors" have said to me about my politics. I've tried to participate in political discussions here at SeniorNet, but many participants go for the jugular and don't really express new ideas when slicing your throat, just rehashing of their same old diatribes. When I'm really interested in the topic, I may lurk, but I don't ever post there. And that stinks, IMHO.

This may be why so many are indifferent to the excesses brought about by the Patriot Act. They are either in agreement with the powers that be or they just don't want to get the flak those supporters can dish out. Sue

I am been surprised that many dont buy a local newspaper and TV news is just sound bites ..I am always sending letters to the editors about things I feel are important. I dont demean or criticize other writers but just give my view ..what I dont understand is why more dont write ...we certainly have a lot going on in our city and state that needs addressing and considering ...what appalls me are the stupid things people do write about ie what comics are in the paper I cant believe people care that much about comics ..this is a crucial concern ? ah well we will get what we deserve if we fail to care ..anna

When people argue a point (politics or any other thing) face to face they most usually are civil. It is the anonyminity of the Internet - faceless confrontation - that gives rise to uncivil behavior.

That is not to say that uncivil behavior doesn't occur in real life. When an issue is highly charged with polarized views, nasty, heated exchanges do occur, even in city council meetings.

And, such occassions have been the beginnings of riots, even.

But, if I can hide behind a nom de plume, sheilded from accountability, it just might be that I would more often act in a way that would make my mother ashamed of me. I try to keep that in mind when I post anywhere. And, I never visit (online) strictly political discussions. Even Current Events here at SeniorNet became so tacky I quit going there.

I seriously doubt that Bill H would allow uncivil behavior in any discussions he led. Thank goodness.

America is wonderful (much of the time it is), USA would always do the right thing (we're all old enough to know better than that), you can trust your gov't to look out for you (sometimes, but it's OUR gov't, we have to work at making it look out for us),etc. etc.

I have a friend whose dgt just married an Indonesian and is a primatologist, often working in Indonesian. They speak on the phone often and we laugh about how they have probably been entertaining the Justice Dept and George when they listen in on their conversations. It's only half said in jest, however. In the 70's our whole church congregation's membership was on the Nixon/Hoover enemies' list becuase the church had taken buses to an anti-war demonstration in D.C.

I teach history at a community college and my young students are often very accepting of those things that they have been taught in k-12 about "the United States of America." I happen to think this IS the best country to live in, but it ain't perfect and WE are responsible for our gov't's behavior.

I ask my students every semester, "how many of you voted in the last election?" Surprisingly, in recent years, more than half of them have. To the others i say, "I guess you don't like living in a democracy?" They protest that of course they do like living in a democracy and THEN i get on my soap box explaining clearly that if they don't vote, they aren't participating in the democracy and don't deserve to live in one.

I think many people feel that there is nothing they can do to change anything that the gov't does, but you are also right that it's a slow, creeping along change, after change, after slow change, that is sometimes hard to notice what's gone before we notice that a whole lot has changed, a la Nazi Germany.......jean

Just got back and have started reading all your posts, but am not caught up yet. Feel really out of it, not having seen a news broadcast for over a week.

Howzat, your point about increments is well-taken, and Bev, while rereading 1984, I also suggest a rereading of Margaret Atwoods The Handmaid's Tale -- where women overnight were forbidden to have bank accounts or to read. I'm not about to start another topic, but while women have gained many rights, think about the ones they have lost, and the one they are in danger of losing. For both men and women, small increments of encroachment are a danger.

Last week I lost my Swiss Army Knife at the airport. My fault - I just totally forgot I had it. Bought it in Switzerland about 20 years ago, carry it in my purse, and seldom use it. But it's very handy when you need it. So, I was going through the pacemaker patdown, minus my shoes, and the TSAs were sending and resending my purse thru the machine. After the third try and taking everything out -- "Don't touch" they told me -- they finally found it. At least I know now that my FM system (Assistive Listening Device) will go through. I'd always packed it before, but had just bought a new one and didn't want to risk losing it if my luggage got lost. So I just put it around my neck on the antenna cord. They said "What's that" and I said "the better to hear you" and that was that.

Jean, re Nazi Germany -- the book burnings. Have they come home to roost? Add Fahrenheit 451 to your reread list.

One of our SeniorNetters is using this as a tagline,and gave me permission to copy it here.

"When even one American -- who has done nothing wrong -- is forced by fear to shut his mind and close his mouth, then all Americans are in peril." Harry S. Truman

This certainly is an appropriate quote for today!

Anna

I have written letters to the editor and have had them published. The paper always calls first to get my verbal permission to print my letters. Of course the retain permission to correct any misspelling.

Some folks never get any further than the comics, and that is too bad because I'm sure our representatives have someone reading these letters to the editor. A good way to let our reps know our views.

Howzat

I haven't entered into the SN political discussions in four or five years. Some of the participants get a little too carried away with verbal criticism, and you are so right when you wrote that I would never permit verbal abuse in any of my discussions.

Maybel

"I think many people feel that there is nothing they can do to change anything that the gov't does"

If enough voters took the time to write letters to their representatives expressing their views change would soon occur.

It is sad that so many citizens fail to exercise their right to vote. At times senators and representatives are elected with less than half the registered voting. And so many citizens not registered to vote is shameful.

This leaves a relatively small community of voters shaping the policy of our nation. We are a nation of over 270 million, of course, that is counting children.

Does anyone remember the number of voter turnout in the last election?

Sue

Your post, #89, expresse my feeling quite well, and I'm sue you can agree with what I said about a small number of citizens shaping the policy of government.

Bill H

Pedlin

"For both men and women, small increments of encroachment are a danger."

Let us hope this small increments of encroachment doesn't turn into a landslide.

But we have no one to blame other than ourselves. I often attend our monthly township council board meetings. The board members appreciate our views but it is appalling that so few are there. Sometimes there are only two or three other twp. residents present.

Many of our congressional district reps have town meeting for their constituents and these meeting are a very good way to let the reps know our feelings.

MaryZ

"When even one American -- who has done nothing wrong -- is forced by fear to shut his mind and close his mouth, then all Americans are in peril." Harry S. Truman

I wish Harry S. was here today. I wonder what he would have had to say about the Pat Act?

Once again. "Today me. Tomorrow you."

Bill H

Tomorrow, December 31st, will end our discussion of the Pat Act. Please take this last day to air your concerns of either the good or ugly of the law.

Bill H

I think I was really upset when Mr. Bush said the Patriot Act was to protect the Fatherland. This is my country but when did it become my fatherland. " It is a shame", my kids said that I still felt so much anger at Germany that I was using that to say we shouldnt call our country the Fatherland. I guess I have other reasons too though I cant articulate them but I just detest it when I hear that reference. faith

Faith, your point is well taken. It's like the old hymn, "Faith of our Fathers". Since I was raised in a household of church going women, I wondered where the song, "Faith of our Mothers" was. I, too, dislike the "Fatherland" as a description of our country because of the negative connotations from Hitler's Germany, but I also thinks it leaves out 50% of our population. I remember Molly Pitcher, Martha Washington, Abigail Adams, Mrs. Ben Franklin (can't remember her first name) and a host of other women who were instrumental in forming our country--maybe not as the leaders of the movement--but certainly helping to form opinion and supporting those who were in charge.

I feel I'm on a very shaky limb here, talking about Latin, but in our Latin lessons the word "patria" translates into both Fatherland and country. But I'm with you, Faith. I could never call our country the Fatherland. It sounds like someone is taking care of you, and smacks of Big Brother.

http://nationalcatholicreporter.org/fwis/fw123005.htm is a wonderful column by Sister Joan Chittister, a catholic nun whose column this week is entitled, "Monica, We Need you."

Yes. That Monica.

And yes, for THAT reason.

Bill H: Are you going to leave this discussion up, but just closed? I hope so. I haven't read through it all and I would like to have it to refer back to. Good stuff here.

BevSkyes

"Are you going to leave this discussion up, but just closed? I hope so. I haven't read through it all and I would like to have it to refer back to. Good stuff here."

Thank you for that.

Soon after the 31st the discussion will be arc hived but you can read through it there. I'll find the link for the archived Pat Act discussion and e-mail it to whoever wants it. However, it will still be up all day tomorrow for your views and thoughts about the discussion. Sometimes they leave it open a day or two longer.

I always thought of our country being referred to as SHE.

Faithr

I must admit der Fatherland does hold rather gruesome connotations for me also.

Seems like after the Christmas Holidays things started humming in here. I suppose we seniors are not afraid to express our view.

Bill H

I suppose we seniors are not afraid to express our view.

We're probably all on somebody's "watch list" somewhere.

Thanks for the link to Sister Joan's column. She defined the problem with much of the Patriot Act very well.

I just this evening read an essay in "The Military Officer" by a Lt. Col Ralph Peters, USA-Ret. which was very thought provoking. Colonel Peters is a mustang (promoted from the enlisted ranks--probably after heroics, duty, and education. He retired in order to write. The essay is titled "Our Brilliant, Bloody Future". It raises questions about the use of technology and the fundamentals of war, including the sacrifice of our troops.

In his final paragraphs he alludes to the problems of civilian leadership in the Pentagon (and elsewhere) and comparing it to the differences which served the US well in WWII. I think the following quote is a very good summation of the problems during the Iraq War:

"How do we get civilian leaders who disdained military service themselves to understand that military professionals are worthy of respect?"

And: "Make no mistake: The arrogance of civilians in the Pentagon was redeemed only by the blood of our troops."

While he does not mention the Patriot Act, I believe that the abuses of our civil liberties and a need to justify the decision to go to war has been accelerated by the insistence on being secretive and ignoring our Constitutional right to privacy as afforded by the 4th Amendment to the Constitution. Sue

Allow me to say that the Germans called their country "Vaterland" a long time BEFORE Hitler, the monster, ever came on the scene. I should know, I was born there and raised under his dictatorial regime. And, by the way, he was Austrian, not German. Americans, shaky about European geography and history, may not be aware of the distinction, but there IS one, trust me.

For my part, as a proud naturalized citizen, I am profoundly distressed by the implications of the Patriot Act, as well as the domestic spying without warrant or justification, and the pervasive secrecy. I thought we had escaped intimidation and fear of denunciation when we came here and vowed never to be muzzled again;

and to see all this reenacted here, now, in a democracy, indeed the model for the world !! , is a bitter personal disillusionment.

Thanks for that link to the article by Sister Chittister. She said it so well.

Traude

Thank you for your post. I'm positive there were many German citizens distressed with the National Socialist Party and were proud to refer to their country as the Fatherland, much as they are today. I realize you understand the implications of the law better than most. But not to worry, Traude, there is a Congressional election coming this year, and as the song says: "...there's something blowing in the wind..."

Bill H

Today will end our discussion of the Patriot Act. Your many enlightening posts have made this a successful discussion. More important we are now more aware of the good and bad of the Law. As I learn more about the Patriot Act, the further I value the right of privacy our Constitution gives us.

My thanks to all who participated in this worthwhile and timely topic, and I appreciate your consideration of the other participants.

I wish you all a very happy and healthy New Year.

Bill H

Thank you for a well run discussion. Happy New Year to you, too. And to everyone who participated in this Curious Minds discussion.

Bill, you have had a very good discussion here. It has made all of us aware of the pitfalls of the Patriot Act. Thanks.

Bill H thank you for leading this discussion. I have learned so much from every post. I know better to keep my eyes and ears open to subtle words about the protection of my country.

Thanks, Bill H, for this timely discussion. You did a great job, as did all the participants.

I add my thanks, too, Bill for this discussion. It was very enlightening.

You surely must be a part of that "great generation" that Tom Brokaw wrote about. losalbern

Thanks so much for this timely and informative discussion ...it is ALWAYS good to be aware of what our government does.. in fact WE SHOULD ALWAYS BE CAREFUL to make sure our rights are not taken away ..and especially FOR OUR OWN GOOD Thank goodness for elections ...just remember to VOTE Happy New Year to all .. anna

Thanks Bill for giving us the opportunity to look at the Patriot Act and to vent in very polite ways. I found it very interesting that you and Losalbern were the only 2 males posting--unless I missed some one. You've done a really good job to keep the discussion moving along. I especially like that you respond to most all the posts. That helps one feel that his/her opinion counts. Sue

"there's something blowing in the wind." Last night a commentator on PBS said that "seniors" are 8 times more concerned about the war and the constitutional issues than everyone else polled and most of us vote. Let's hope that has some impact in the congressional elections and the behavior of those respresentatives and senators as they get ready for their elections.....we need to let them know what we want from them. EVERYBODY WRITE YOUR REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS......

and lets hope for a HAPPY NEW YEAR!! ......jean

Many thanks, BILL, for this marvelous discussion, and many thanks also to all participants. It is proof that freedom of speech is alive and well !

I thank all of you for giving me those great compliments. I'm happy you enjoyed the discussion.

Losalbern

Yes, I am part of the "Greatest Generation" and we always did speak our out.

Bill H

We are going to start another CM discussion. This time will concern Walmart, Costco and IKEA---all discount stores.

Have you shopped in any of these and what did you think of them?

Are you aware of the different problems concerning Walmart, including, a law suit in California which they lost?

Did you know that Costco has a whole different approach to their hiring and retaining employees?

And, now IKEA, has appeared in the US and is causing quite a stir among the younger generation because its functional furniture is so easy to assemble.

Come join us on Jan 16th and tell us what you think!! And do peruse the links in the heading. Also, the little paragraph quoted from "The Earth Is Flat".

Oh, Ann, this is going to be a fun one! I'll be here.

This will be a great topic to discuss. I'm really looking forward to it.

looking forward to this discussion..

I am a strong anti-walmart advocate.....Jean

I am a believer in time and place for big boxes. They serve some useful functions, but also are known to destroy small towns downtowns.. Such a shame.. lowest common denominators.

I know the discussion hasn't started yet, but has anybody seen the new documentary on WalMart that is floating around these days?

Curious Minds A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.
Wal-Mart and Other Big Box Stores	Links The Facts About Wal-Mart Medicaid Provides Care For Wal-Mart Workers The Costco Challenge Costco's CEO Keeps Employees IKEA-A Swedish Feeding Trough? IKEA, A Global Cult Brand?
Join us in the discussion of Big Box stores and Warehouse stores. Is Walmart getting a bad rap? What about other Big Box stores?	Check out NYT columnist Thomas Friedman's new book, "The Earth is Flat." Friedman calls Wal-Mart "one of the 10 forces that flattened the world." He credits the company with "out competing" rivals in creating a computer-based global network. When you pull an item off the shelf in Rapid City, almost immediately a machine somewhere in China starts making a replacement. It's sort of like the "butterfly effect" - except that Madame Butterfly, the machine operator, is making about $90 a month. ~ "The Earth is Flat" by Thomas Friedman

First Post for Walmart and other Big Box Stores

Discussion Leader: Ann Alden

It was pretty well done and informative. We seem to be inundated with this topic about Walmart and its look alikes.

I just finished a chapter about it in "The World Is Flat" and the author covers it well.

In a small town in NY, the population fought Walmart for 10 years but lost about 2 years ago. In the process, they also now have more than one big store in a neighborhood that is almost underwater. These big companies have built on their flat lands which protect them from flooding. In coming to Ithaca, they have almost put the whole of downtown out of business plus a nice mall which is on the outskirts of town. But, I digress here as what I am concerned about is the way Walmart goes about running their stores.

"They do not have adequate benefits for their employees and don't offer them until a full time employee has worked for them for 6 months, part time-2 years. Here in the US, our states and therefore, our taxpayers, are paying for the healthcare benefits of a company which is the richest in the world. Just to give you an idea of figures: Walmart only ensures about 45% of its employees who make about $8 an hour. They require employees to cover 33% of the cost of their benefits, but will soon lower that to 30%. The monthly premiums for family coverage ranging as high as $264 and out of pocket expenses as high as $13,000 in some cases." (NYTimes)

From the same NYTimes article, we find that Costco, Walmart's biggest competitor, insured 96% of its eligible full-time or part-time employees. Costco employees become eligible for health insurance after three months working full-time or six months working part-time.

So why aren't we approving more Costco stores than Walmart stores?? Who runs this railroad that we call home?

I don't know of any Costco stores in my area. The nearest is in a suburb of Minneapolis..some 250 miles away. Perhaps they aren't interested in locating in small towns...so we're left with WalMart. We still have a downtown in this small town of 5,200, but the store that would have competed with WalMart closed in bankruptcy long before WalMart arrived. If we didn't have it, we would have to drive 35+ miles to find ordinary things...housewares, craft items, etc. The Dollar General that arrived later is too unpredicatable on their merchandise. The item you want may be there today, but it may never appear again.

Paying for medical benefits for employees is a problem for many businesses. They're finding they simply can't keep up with the rising costs of medical care/insurance/prescription drugs. Perhaps if there was something done to control that, then all businesses...from GM to Ford to WalMart would be more likely to offer them. The bottom line is if the company isn't financially successful, then they close and people lose whatever their job was. This was brought home here over the weekend when Tyson closed two deli meat processing plants in our area (not in this town)but the next ones over, one in operation for over 50 years...putting 400 or so people out of work. In one town about our size, it was their largest employer.

While I was in Ohio over Christmas, there was an ad for Aetna Health Insurance for the 5-6 counties in the area I was visiting. Their listed cost for health insurance:

MONTHLY PREMIUMS

Single ----- $1,494.56
Double ----- $2,989.12
Family ----- $3,736.40

Medical and prescription drug insurance through a group and with an HMO that restricts who you see and where you fill your prescriptions and which drugs are covered for even a single person under 65 can run easily in the $450+ range for a month.

jane

I thought I'd add another plus for Costco. Did you know that ANYTHING you buy at Costco (other than computers) can be returned AT ANY TIME, for any reason, as long as you have the original paperwork, no questions asked? I learned that when I was looking for a camera and the salesperson told me about it. A year later, when a newer model of the camera I purchased came out (and my camera had a minor flaw in it), I decided to test the policy. They took the camera, and the paperwork, handed me 100% of my purchase price back, and I went across the street and bought a new camera (Costco didn't carry the brand I wanted this time). A friend had a printer she had purchased finally wear out about 5 years later. She happened to mention that in passing to the Costco salesperson, who told her that if she would bring it back with all the paperwork, they would refund her the full price. And they did.

I like Costco but the only one that I can get to is all the way on the other side of Birmingham. It is in suburb where the average income is much higher than the suburbs on my side of town. They have more expensive merchandise than Walmart. I shop at Walmart all the time. I buy all my groceries there if possible. They have offered this area access to many things that we never saw in stores before they opened here. We still do not see many of the fresh fruits that Walmart carries in our local grocery stores. The super Walmart with the grocery store has not put any the local stores out of business around here. The real "mom and pop" stores went out of business many years before Walmart appeared on the scene. Things are definitely less expensive at Walmart.

I know that there is this big controversy about the health insurance. however I think Walmart offers many entry level jobs to people who are just using it as a stepping stone to other employment. As Jane has mentioned there are many businesses who say they are having trouble with giving health insurance to their employees. I think we are going to see more and more companies trying to get out of offering that benefit to employees. It will not be because of what Walmart has done either.

I think that these discount stores offer a real service to consumers. I know that many people are really rabid against them but I just don't agree with them.

Joan Grimes

But what I don't understand is if an article is made in China for a few dollars (or way less than that in most cases), including material, why is the price STILL so high when offered for sale here in the U.S.? The manufacturers in China pay no benefits at all for their workers. There are no guarantees of any kind. Just a paycheck at the end of the week.

The extremely high priced Swardski (I hope I spelled that right) crystal is made in China now, and the pieces are whipped up for just a few dollars. I haven't seen a lowering of the price on such items here in the states.

I get my insulin from Wal*Mart because it is more than $10 a bottle cheaper than anywhere else, but I wish I didn't have to go there at all. Costco is where I'd go if there was one on my side of town. The one we have is not conveniently located.

It really seems criminal that we are forced to support a company which exploits its employees and puts mom and pop stores out of business just because every place ELSE charges such high prices that we can't afford to shop there. Surely there must be a middle ground!

I am fortunate to have both Costco and WalMart roughly the same distance from me, so I don't have to make that choice, but if there were no alternative to WalMart, I would have a real moral dilemma facing me.

Chattanooga is a small/medium sized city, so was later getting Wal-Mart than smaller towns. Remember, WM originally was located only in smaller rural communities. Our city has two other regional grocery chains with a large presence in the area (Bi-Lo and Food Lion), and there are a few independents. Costco is not in our area at all. The first WM was built here about 15 years ago, and a new Super WM was opened about 3-4 years ago. We have just had open a Super Target - with some groceries, but not the fresh stuff (meat and vegetables).

I shop at Wal-Mart almost exclusively, mainly because I HATE shopping. Going for groceries weekly it something that I've learned to tolerate, but I really, REALLY hate it. WM carries everything I need from pharmacy items to hardware to clothing to groceries to gasoline, and that's why I shop there. It's one-stop for me, and it means that I don't have to go in a store again for another week.

We get all our gasoline there because we get not only their usually low price, but a 3 cent discount when we use a WM card for the purchase.

I'm sure if we had a CostCo store nearby, it would give WM some serious competition. I'd certainly give it a try. My sister-in-law in CA shops there a lot, and we use it when we travel with them.

My next-door neighbor works for WM and has for a number of years. She had worked for other grocery stores before, and got on at WM when they opened. She has stayed there, so there must be something that keeps her there. I'll ask if I get the chance. She has had promotions over the years.

Doesn't it bother anyone that we (taxpayers) are paying for Walmart's health plans when they don't cover their employees very well so these same employees must apply for their state's Medicaid services.

Yes, its cheaper to shop there but there are penalties to having them in our communities. Our Walmart close by is a disaster in traffic tieups, people parking in their lots for days at a time, in RVs. The store is almost 5 years old and its needs a serious face lift. The inside is okay but going fast.

I think that Mary's reason for shopping there is certainly reasonable. She hates to shop and therefore doesn't want to drive all over for her needs. Its her one-stop shopping experience per week. Not a bad idea!

I have heard good things from my family in Oregon and Washington about IKEA and they love that place. Has anyone read the above articles about them?? For instance, how folks are leaving their children in the free care area while they leave the store and go to the gym or to the beauty shop??? Or the older folks who eat there on a regular basis and take home their leftovers for lunch?? (heck, we all do that!) According to my family, the prices are so reasonable that if you are shopping for household things its the only place to go. Our closest one is in Pittsburg,PA but they ship to Columbus for $$$. Also you can hire people to assemble your furniture from there after its delivered. Service is the answer with that company!

We have no Costco here but I was in the one in Atlanta and one in California. They are much like Sam's and only carry certain products for as long as they get a bargain purchase price on it. But, they seem to have a better relationship with their employees.

The cost of goods from China is why our companies have their goods made there. It is not necessarilly made with cheap supplies. Many of our big companies have built huge factories there and they pay decently. Also, in India.

Am between swimming and the dentist, so have just a few minutes. Ann, you sound like my California (now Oregon) daughter -- regarding the taxes -- she says about all the people who shop there -- "It's really costing them more in the long run."

The Charlottesville kid says "buying local" is the only way to go.

I, the mother, do not agree with my daughters. I don't see Wal-Mart as evil incarnate, as so many people do. One of my friends went to work for WalMart BECAUSE she could get health benefits for her husband. Regarding that issue, I think what Jane said in her post above made a lot of sense. Back later.

I do shop at Wal-Mart occasionally. However, I get my groceries at the much closer to me Krogers and Brunos--using their sale brochures to help make a list.

My gripe about Wal-Mart is their practice of coming to an area--then a few years later building a Super Wal-Mart and abandoning the first building. I live in Auburn, Alabama and we are connected to Opelika, AL with no stops in between. Both are very small cities. We have an abandoned Wal-Mart in each as well as a Super Wal-Mart in each.

To make matters worse, there is also an abandoned Lowe's in Opelika. These abandoned stores are a visual blight and new businesses don't seem to be able to take them over and make them useful. Just a waste of tax dollars to have huge ugly empty buildings sitting there, IMO. Sue

I know what you mean, Sue, and amazingly, that hasn't happened here - at least not much. We've had a Toys-R-Us/Books-A-Million/Chinese restaurant go into a vacated Hill's Dept. Store. A large self-storage facility went into the space vacated by K-Mart when they built a new store. Lowe's temporarily closed, tore its building down to the ground, and built a new building. The space occupied by the original WM now houses Hobby Lobby and a furniture store. That's wonderful to see.

On the other hand, Winn Dixie closed about a year ago, and that space is still vacant. Also the old Target store is vacant, but that's just been a few months, and I've heard rumors that something else is going in there.

Maybe our area is just better about using those spaces - I don't know. I've always thought the vacating store should be required to find a new tenant for its space, or else tear down the building, tear up the pavement, and make it into a green space.

Your:

Maybe our area is just better about using those spaces - I don't know. I've always thought the vacating store should be required to find a new tenant for its space, or else tear down the building, tear up the pavement, and make it into a green space.

is a wonderful idea. I have a friend on the Auburn City Council. I think I will mention it to him. Sue

I am not against the warehouse stores. The way I remember it when I was a child we had three grocery stores and a mercantile in the summer at Tahoe City, and the groceries were all priced within cents of each other but when the big mercantile was open there were more choices and lots cheaper. Almost as good as going down to Reno.

Then I moved to a small city called Auburn and we had lots of stand alone butcher shops,and many small groceries and two large so called super markets called Safeway and Purity. My family shopped mostly at Purity because it was cheaper. So as I grew up and learned from my mother and grandmother how to shop and cook I had good teachers.

When I married and had my own family I knew I could get better service, and delivery even and really really better meat and fish in the stand alone small markets and I did a lot of shopping in them, but for my staple shopping I went to the largest cheapest market I was near and I still do.

I go to WalMart now that it is fairly close to me but my staple grocery is so much closer I save the gas money so its a toss up. For big items that are expensive I now shop all over and on line plus the big warehouse stores. I have found many bargains on line. I don't think about who pays the medical insurance for the people who run e-bay or O discounts. I think of what quality I am after and next what quantity and then what price is best and that is the way most people shop. . Our Woolworth's in Auburn drove several small business like a little fabric store and a little shop for pottery etc., to close so they said, and I don't remember people throwing stones at Woolworth's. Do You! or Sears when they started their big stores with everything for the home after WW-ll. I will continue living my life pinching my pennies and I always did so that may be why I still have a penny to spend.

I think the WalMarts and K-Marts and Cosco's of the world will have to provide workers with more benefits but I don't think they ever will provide all the benefit's a state or federal job provides people and retail or wholesale sales never will. When the Unions came into power it was not in grocery stores nor in clothing stores but it was in the Producing Raw Material and Manufacturing that the Unions gained big power. And in the long run these big employers will give in to some level of benifits, I am willing to bet. faith

Faith, I think some Kroger's stores are unionized, but not around here. Alabama is a pretty much Right to Work state--low pay and not many benefits. Sue

We have the big discount stores here too.Our main one is "The Warehouse". I shop there for electrical goods, clothes etc. However it pains me that when these stores opened Nationwide and began importing so much stuff all from China I felt so guilty because people all over lost their jobs and manufacturing has almost ground to a halt. There are now fewer decent paying jobs for those who cannot manage a college education for whatever reason.

Its an unfair advantage China has because they pay low wages and have no universal health care any more and anyone who says China is Communist is wrong. Its a far right dictatorship and I loathe buying stuff off them but there is hardly anything NZ made now. I saw a doco and the Govt does nothing to help the people. They have no welfare programs at all.

Carolyn

I tend to shop locally for fresh produce, etc. and then use Sams( owned by Wal-Mart) for paper items. I used to buy some meat there as well, but they started to get not as nice meat, so I no longer go there for that sort of thing. Sams is a large ticket store, so I take home the paper goods and have a lot of storage for them. When I buy anything frozen at Sams, I bring it home and divide it and then freeze it. I like Target much more than Wal-Mart. The selection is superior as far as I am concerned. I am not a big far of Wal-Mart, the shelves are always messy, the aisles crowded and the people in it, tend to not speak any recognizable language. I know.. prejudice, but I just prefer Target and like their policy of hiring handicapped workers. Wish they would let the Salvation Army do their kettle thing, but that is the only drawback. However I used to own a used book store and I will tell you that WalMart is and always has been totally unfair in their dealings with suppliers. They demand and get a bigger discount than other chains or stores and at one point, they were selling paperback books for what a small store had to pay wholesale. Just not fair and they got sued for it. Not sure just what if anything has been resolved. I also discovered recently that they have name brand items that are made especially for them and are not as good a quality as the same name brand in another store.. Something to remember.

I noticed the different name brands that were not as nice or as reliable in my first Walmart visit in Kennesaw,GA. Found a better quality item at Home Depot and the price was not that much different.

It is pretty well known that Walmart has a policy of driving the prices down in bids for goods. With the quantity of customers so high, they have an advantage when deciding on products and they demand lower costs.

I noticed that on the stock market, Walmart is more valuable than Costco. People who want to make money on the stock market are happy with the high stock price of Walmart. For the most part, they don't care how nice Costco is to their workers. Bottom line, its all about profit margins.

About the empty buildings left by many companies-- Walmart, Lowes, Sears, Krogers. Its my understanding that leaving those unused buildings after building another one, gives the companies who left them empty a huge tax break while they are unoccupied.

Don't understand why there is talk of things made in China here. I find many more American made goods in Walmart than anywhere else. Designer products that are sold in fancy places are all made in China. BTW, saw on TV a couple of days ago that China is making a very small car now. I did some shopping after Christmas at The Hallmark store. I bought a beautiful Pere Noel. You guessed it. It was made in China. I also bought one at Cracker Barrel, of course it was made in China also but was not called Pere Noel but was called Santa.

As for the empty buildings , when our new Super Walmart opened, the old store was immediately taken by Hobby Lobby. I wonder if the city governments could not do something about the empty buildings. It seems to me that they could.

Ann, as for the RVs parking in the Walmart parking lots, I know that some towns and cities have passed ordinances against that. Of course I feel that it is fine for them to park there. We used to do that sometimes when we were traveling in our RV. Of course we only stayed over night as we were usually just passing through. If I was going to be there for a longer period of time I certainly wanted to be where we had hookups.

I guess that one stop shopping is one of the main reasons that I like to shop there. The thing that I dislike about them is that everyone else is there too making for really crowded parking lots and stores. This of course cannot be helped. I shop online for most of my clothes. This gives me something to look forward to when I have an order coming. Gee I need to get a life don't I but I guess I am just too old to embark on that.

Joan Grimes

Super discussion, those figures posted by Jane are horrifying about health premiums, the Health Industry is out of control, I really believe it's going to kill us, in every sector. It touches everything we look at. It's going to cripple us as a nation if we don't do something about it. I heard just last week about a $100,000 bill for a hospital ER, that's ridiculous.

We don't have a Cosco here and I have never been in one, but we have Wal Mart and Sams. I have been in Sams, which is owned by Wal Mart, and never quite understood the pull, people come out of Sam's which they have to BUY a membership for and only use Discover or cash or a check, looking like they have found the mother lode.

SOME of the prices at Sam's are good, some are definitely not, but people are THERE and they are loading up their carts and they just grab, I've seen incredible amounts of stuff coming out of them that are NOT bargains. You really have to know your prices if you shop at Sam's.

How would you say the three compare with each other? Say for instance I want a CD, which one of the Big Three would be my best trip? Let's include Best Buy too, (or would you not?) assuming they were all equally distant from my home. And how does Office Max and Home Depot compare with these mega chains?

Did Mom 'n Pop pay for health insurance for their employees?

Good Point Ginny. I am pretty sure that Mom and Pop did not pay for health insurance for their employees. They sure could not do that today. You are so right Health insurance costs are killing us.

I don't like Sam's at all but I really like Cosco. Reminds me I must renew my membership there.

A little more about Walmart. I would never be able to have tomato basil soup which I just heat in the microwave if there was not a Super Walmart here. I love the soup. Last night I added some goat cheese (which I also bought at Walmart) and put the soup in the microwave and had a delicious soup for my dinner.

I snacked on fresh cherries yesterday. Yes from Walmart. Think I will go have some fresh Cherries right now.

Joan Grimes

Yes, we do need to know prices,Ginny. On that show about Walmart, one of the former managers claimed that Walmart always has those baiting prices up in a front display, like a microwave for $25. Once you see that, you, who are shopping for a new microwave, will inevatably, will go to the microwave shelves to compare the store's other prices. Probably you will buy a name brand with what seems like a decent price on it. Buuuuuuut, that price is no better than Best Buy or Home Depot or other stores. See, they hook you, and then, just because you are in Walmart, you believe that those other prices are lower also.

I was shopping for a small refrigerator for our downstairs family room in December. I couldn't find anything small enough so called my son, who went straight to his computer and found a good priced one at Best Buy. He checked to see if it was in stock and I got a bargain. Thanks, Google!!

The two articles about WalMart in the heading are very biased against the company. Would it be possible to include another link in the heading that offers both pro and con articles? One such link is

Articles, Studies and Resources on Wal-Mart

No one will want to read them all, but I would encourage at least a scan of

Is Wal-Mart the Right Target? In other words, spread the scrutiny.

And while you're at it, you might want to look at this article from the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Key Facts About Americans Without Health Insurance

The last I heard, there were approximately 41 million nonelderly persons without health insurance. I don't think they all worked for Wal-Mart.

If I'm really price shopping, I'll look on the internet to get an idea of a price range. Then I'll know whether or not a given price is competitive. I'd rather pay a little bit more to get something nearby with one stop than drive across town, looking in several stores to find something. I figure my time and gasoline are worth any difference in price.

We have a Sam's Club here, and I keep a membership, but we rarely go there. It's not on my usual "route", so it'd have to be a special trip. One of our daughters did some comparison between Sam's and WM a few years ago. She felt that there was really no difference in prices - so there was no reason for her to make an effort to get to a Sam's Club. The things I've seen that would've been useful to me at one time are those that are sold in bulk or large quantities. We had four children, and I would've loved to be able to buy those great big containers of things. Now that it's just the two of us, I have the opposite problem - trying to buy in smaller quantities.

Edit: Interesting articles, pedl'n - you got in while I was writing.

Most of the people I know now are elderly single women and we all have the same problem. Too much to use up before it spoils in most packages. In a way it is good as we tend to buy 1 patato at a time or 1 apple and 1 pear. Lettuce is the worst for me. One head of iceberg will go brown before I have finished it. I do get paper products in the warehouse stores in big amounts though as it is definitely cheaper. I went to a 99c store that opened near me. I saw canned goods with brand names I don't recognize mostly they were in Spanish. They had 3 cans of chili beans with meat for 99c and 3 cans of various soups for 99c. Now I didn't try any of those because I felt I should know the brand. Then I got to thinking about the fact that the dry goods prices in this store are so cheap a family of six could eat well what I spend on one. I have also thought what could be wrong with the dry packages of beans and rice and they had all the wonderful fresh vegetables but I thought they were only marginally cheaper. They had shelves of cosmetics and hair stuff to all with unfamiliar brands most packed in foreign countries and really low prices. I am thinking it is a place I need to investigate more. My daughter told me that she wouldn't hesitate to try it so maybe I will.

faith

I don't buy iceberg head lettuce anymore because it does spoil before I can use it.

Now I buy a head of red leaf lettuce at Kroger's. It takes a while to do this, but it lasts several weeks this way.

After I put the other groceries away, I rinse the whole head thoroughly with my spray faucet. I shake it in the sink really well, then pull off all the leaves, put them in a colander and spray again. Then shake each leaf, put it on paper towels to dry. After I get all the leaves shaken, I put them in a clean dry dish towel (like the old baby diapers) and go outside and twirl my arms around and swing the rest of the water out.

When that is done, I go back inside, tear each leaf into bite size pieces, discarding any of the stem ends. Put them on paper towels to dry as I finish tearing the remainder. When this is all done, I put the torn lettuce into a zip lock bag with a clean paper towel folded in quarters. It stays really fresh--and I think has more nutritional value than iceberb head lettuce.

Please excuse me for getting off the topic. This is probably more work than anyone would like to do, but it's a good solution for me. Sue

On the lettuce digression, I buy romaine or red-tipped lettuce, too, but leave it all together, rinse, and wrap in paper toweling before putting it back in the plastic bag. I use a few leaves at a time then rewrap. It'll last me a couple of weeks, too.

Back to the big box stores - it seems to me, with all the protests about the stores, that if people didn't shop there, they wouldn't prosper. So they must be doing something right. Folks must like the prices in general - they have to stay competitive in their pricing. Even with gasoline, stations near a WM or Costco have to keep their prices within a penny or two. Stations that are further away from a WM are always higher.

I'm not trying to inundate this site with articles, but this is from today's Yahoo Business Week online in response to the recently enacted Maryland law requiring entities with 10,000 or more employees to spend at least 8% of it's payroll for health care. Heavy emphasis on implications for all business down the road nation-wide.

First Wal-Mart. Then Who?

Regarding lettuce -- my big battle with the supermarkets is that they wet down their produce too much, and then it spoils so quickly. Right before Thanksgiving I found a big box of field greens at Sam's for under $4. Enough for Thanksgiving salad for 10 plus several more salads and it kept for almost a month. Nice and dry. I wash it when I make a salad.

I share the cost of Sam's membership with another couple -- we each pay half, and use Sam's for certain items that I know are less expensive or that I can't find anyplace else. Believe it or not (this is outstate, not the big city) Sam's was the first place in town to carry such splurge items as lamb chops. But now I've fallen in love with Trader Joe's and they're 120 miles away.

Pedl'n, I didn't know Trader Joe's had come so far east. It's a great favorite of my sister-in-law who lives in the LA area. Otherwise, she shops at Costco.

Mary Z, you make a good point -- these stores must be doing something right or they wouldn't prosper. Back in the days before WalMart became the favorite public whipping boy they had a reputation for easily accepting returns -- no questions asked. I remember returning a weed-eater several months after I bought it because it wasn't working correctly. Now I think they are more like most stores, but no problem with legitimate returns.

About the smaller applicance stores -- I've always preferred buying household appliances from a place that would service it, and we still have a few places in town. But as a consumer-oriented nation we have made a statement that we prefer lower prices to service.

It's not just stores. When was the last time someone filled your gas tank and checked your oil and the air in your tires? OUr last full-service tank disappeared a couple of years ago.

We have become a throw-away, do-it-yourself, discount price nation. I don't know whether we have brought it on ourselves or if it has been forced on us, but I do think we have made some choices in that direction.

Mary Z, Trader Joe's is now coast to coast. They have stores in 19 states.

"These stores must be doing something right or they wouldn't prosper."

I think what WalMart specifically is doing right is to keep prices low for people who can't afford higher prices elsewhere. Sometimes taking the high moral ground costs more than low income people, or older people on diminishing fixed incomes can afford to pay, but if you read some of the behind the scenes information about WalMart, I think it makes you stop and think about what exactly you want to support and how you are contributing to the demise of so many things that we have held special about this country.

I encourage you to read "Facts about WalMart" in the link above.

I know that I used to occasionally shop at WalMart and now if I can't afford something elsewhere, I go without. I'm trying to take a bit of the moral high ground, but I know I am in the minority across the country.

I really don't think that those of us who shop at WalMart are any less moral than those who do not.

I'm not calling anybody immoral...it's all in how you rationalize things. I can't read the things I've read about WalMart and think that I am contributing to their continuation. You may have a different take on things.

Thanks for the Trader Joe information, pedln. It's still not in the Southeast, though. Maybe we'll get to stop there when we go through Sante Fe in April.

Good for you, Bev, for standing up for your convictions. I've certainly done the same from time to time. There are certain companies I don't do business with because it's the only way I can show my disapproval of things they've done or causes they've supported.

There wines are some of the best and not very expensive.

I do not patronise McDonalds because their ordinary menu has addictive additives and preservatives in the food. The more you eat the more you want to eat. They have brought some healthy food in here as an alternative menu because of the public concern about obesity but they need to do much much more.

Well, I have never thought I was an immoral person and I still don't think I am just because I shop at Walmart. It really comes down to Walmart is about the only place to shop in my area without traveling many miles across town. I just don't feel up to driving that distance to shop. Walmart did not put other places to shop out of business in my area there just have never been any places to shop. There is Walmart now and it is nice to have it. Walmart also employs many people in our area. There are other supermarkets in the area for those people who consider themselves on a higher "moral level" but they still will not have the choices that I have at Walmart. I like the wonderful choice of good fresh fruit that I can get there and it is very good for me. I am very careful about what I eat as I have to be to keep my diabetes under control.

Also I do not think Walmart is any worse than any other big business in this country. I don't believe that they should be blamed for all the things for which they are blamed. I do not agree with the things that the article blames them with, however I am used to being attacked on all sides for what I believe. I do strongly believe that people can be misled by negative publicity. I would like to know who ais really promoting all of this. You see I do not trust anything that I read until I have exhausted all possibilities. I did read the links. Now I will shut up and continue to read what I can find.

Joan Grimes

Well my home used to look like K-marts but now looks like Walmarts due to K-Marts moving so my closest is walmarts so due to the gas prices I shop the closest to me most of the time. My drapes, curtains and shades are from Walmarts in fact for the front porch I bought $125.00 worth of bamboo shades but could not cut them to fit so called Mishawalka, Ind and South Bend, Ind and got ones that fit so took the Michigan bamboo shades back and recieved $102.00 for those I could not use. Some of my aquaints that I graduated with have worked for Walmarts for as many years they have been open and are happy with them one of the avon gals that I worked with has to work there just to pay for insurance as her husband is very ill. One of my neibors has to go back to work as a steelworker just to pay insurance. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE U. S.? Good paying jobs went overseas for cheaper labor and no insurance. Just resently bought new refriderator and two new cook stoves ha! they are inferior metals etc. so will be thrown away instead of being repaired like we used to do and they cost much more.

Health insurance for me is no problem so far as bought the blood pressure and diabeatis testers myself but when at the doctors today ask for a prescripition for lancers, test strips etc. and what a differance. Would have gotten meds etc. at Walmarts but have a CVS drugs closer so with the price of gas CVS ended up more reasonable. Walmarts no different than the oil barrons (the rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the middle class join the poor.

(For those that don't know) After my last S/N bash in late October had a stroke Nov, 5 thus the blood pressure and diabeatis checker machines, meds en al. Doing OK today. Ginger

Well when I read that you are now talking about Wal-mart, I came a'runnin' because once a week, Thursday nights to be exact, we make what we call a Wal-mart run at midnight. Why at midnight you say? To make a long story short, my polio legs will not tolerate shopping the way an average senior might shop. Wal-mart is disabled friendly, so friendly in fact that during the day, most everyone in this county that might be disabled, can be found at Wal-mart, using their scooter carts to shop. At times one might wait an hour for a cart to become available. So I shop at night during the quiet hours and find it very agreeable.

Our Super Center made its entrance much like has been described in previous posts. First a small Wal-mart store was introduced. Low low prices knocked down the small variety stores in the area. The Ben Franklins, Kreskes, etc. That small Wal-mart was replaced by the Super Center and they went to work on the grocery stores until we now have only 2 grocery stores left in town. Wal-mart can pretty much charge what they want to, they have no competition in this small town of 12,000. Am I bitter? No, because it is the residents of this town that have let this happen. In the beginning they made the choice to shop there, to abandon the smaller stores they had been supporting. They knew what they were doing and they did it anyway so in my opinion we deserve what we get.

Personally, I thank my lucky stars that in this small town, we have such a store now that I am unable to run from one end of town to the other gathering together the things on my shopping list. Going into one huge store, with scooter carts available, to find everything I need, simplifies my life considerably. Merchandise is clean, well made, and for the most part reasonable in price. Store personnel are courteous and extremely helpful and for the most part seem to enjoy their jobs. Maybe their benefits are not as good as one would like but I am talking about the retail world in a small town. Sales and stock clerks with high school diplomas have never been known to enjoy the perks that are available to higher educated people. It is a step up from flipping hamburgers and those people who have chosen for one reason or another not to go on to college are happy to get jobs at stores such as Wal-mart. And now, before I start to feel guilty as monopolizing your time, I rest my case.

Move over, Bunnie -- I right behind you, and backing you up.

I, too, shop at Wal-Marts. They have carts. It's just as plain and simple as that. There are two or three places in town that I can shop these days, and if they care enough to provide me a means to accomplish that, then they get my business. I can get from the H/Cap parking to the door, and that's about as far as I can get, even with my little O2 bottle. Have cart? Will shop.

We also have only two named Supermarkets left in town...or to be more accurate, we have one Albertsons (will be closing soon, so I've heard) and a local company named Brookshires that has a half-dozen Super Stores in town, and another half-dozen Discount Food stores.

One by one, every supermarket chain in the entire State came and went, and all went broke, left town, drove out......NOT by Wal-Mart, but by Brookshire's stores. The local boys made good, I can assure you that Wal-Mart will not drive them away. They also have big supermarkets in every small town in East Texas.

And they all have carts for customers that need them. Except for them, and for W-M, only Target provides carts.

Now the rest of the truth. Before I had to have a cart to shop....I still shopped at Walmarts. I never enjoyed shopping at the Mall, any Mall. I could get it all in one location, and I find they are no different than the others.

The local Department stores, run wildly deflated prices and ad's for sales to lure people in, and do not have the product, or only one size 3 1/2 and one size 57 or something. But it's all come-on, the lead in.

Wal-Mart uses come-on lures, too. But we're suppose to be smart enough to watch out for them. They want happy customers, but the main thing they want to LOTS of customers and LOTS of sales.

Before I retired, and traveled for the State of Texas...I was in many a small town, once thriving, and growing, now shrinking and all but dead. Wal-Mart was no where in site, and didn't have anything to do with it. The kids left and went to the city, they didn't farm or raise cattle anymore. Civilization happened and people moved on.

Can't comment on the other Big Boxes....but I suspect they are all much the same. Wal-mart may be given credit for driving out K-Mart here in town, and before them another Discount called Gibsons, years ago.

If some of our Department stores, and shops would offer wheels, I'd be happy to give them my business, too.

Truth is, I'm buying more and more on line, on the internet...and guess what. They also have big sales, come-on ads and when you try to buy, they have one size 3 1/2 and one size 57 available at that wonderful price. They are all pretty much the same, aren't they?

Sun

Hm.. I have a Sams membership because originally Sams was for small merchants and gave you a discount over the price listed. You can also take your sales tax certificate and get everything without paying the sales tax. I keep it because we buy all of our paper products, some large scale canned veggies( I feed my dogs half dog food and half string beans ) and until January 1,, the prescriptions. I did a survey locally and Sams was the cheapest by far for my Fosamax..Now of course with the new drug law, I have AARP medigap and just pay a copay. But I still buy a lot of vitamins and that sort of stuff and wow are they cheaper at Sams. We have also bought a laptop and other big ticket stuff that is cheaper as long as you comparison price first. So while I am not a WalMart fan, I am a Sams fan.. Our Super WalMart is not a particularly good grocery store at all. I shop locally for produce because our Publix is really good at produce and meats.. Has a fish department that is fresh and this makes me happy. Never been in a Costco, but my daughter in law loves hers.

Supermarkets thrive here because people like to go into a food only store. They have lovely fresh food with fresh fish counters and good delis and fresh vegetable departments. There is stiff competition. The staff are paid above the minimum wage. We do not begrudge it and our groceries are on average about 6% higher than yours in cost. I am informed this by the snowbirders the people who come from the US to live here 6mths and live 6mths back in the states. These are people who cannot gain residency therefore take out a visitors permit each year to spend summers here. I believe there are quite a few of them nowdays.

Carolyn

I'm not a big shopper and have no WalMart outlets nearby. I do occasionally shop at K-Mart (now merged with Sears) and of course, Home Depot and Lowes. I'm attracted by the low prices and big selection of merchandise. I suspect that it is a similar appeal that draws people to WalMart. Most of the WalMart bashersin my circle are union members, many of them in the teachers union, and I sense they are blindly ffollowingthe "union line". Popster from Huntington

WAL-MART VIOLATES LAW 8 MILLION TIMES

LISA ALCALAY KLUG, NY TIMES - A California jury on Thursday ordered Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, to pay $172 million in damages for failing to provide meal breaks to nearly 116,000 hourly workers as required under state law. . . The suit, filed on behalf of employees of Wal-Mart and Sam's Club stores in California, argued that the chain violated state law more than eight million times from Jan. 1, 2001, to May 6, 2005, said the plaintiffs' lawyer, Jessica Grant of the Furth Firm of San Francisco. California law requires that employers provide a meal break of 30 minutes for every five hours on the clock, Ms. Grant said. If the break is shorter than that, provided late or not at all, the employer must pay an hour's pay, she said. "What happened here is that Wal-Mart didn't make a single payment for 2001 and 2002 and only started paying in 2003 after we asked for permission to go forward as a class action," Ms. Grant said. Responding to the verdict, Wal-Mart issued a statement saying that it planned to appeal, that the decision was unique to California and that it had no bearing on any other state. Wal-Mart is facing similar cases in about 40 other states, Ms. Grant said."

Thank you for posting that, Ann.

What the lady said was that she preferred to take the high road when it came to shopping at Walmart.

When folks are not being paid for their lunch hours, when their health insurance is poor and costly--its certainly a good idea to take a look at the rest of the company's practices. And, if you disagree with the way employees are being treated, then don't shop there. Unfortuneatly or fortuneatly, Walmart is serving many areas that wouldn't get served at all if it wasn't for them. Perhaps, instead of taking the higher moral ground in silence, it would behoove folks who don't think that Walmart is fair to write them a letter. Hey, Sue, this would be something else you could do besides drying your lettuce. Just kidding,lady! I can't believe how hard you work at that. I just try to serve mine more often since I am a user of Coumadin along with my husband, its a recommendation that we eat a small salad every day. I bet you are a good letter writer,too.

Also, I appreciate the offering of an electric cart as there were times when I needed one (knee surgery) but I found them in most large stores. Home Depot, Kroger's, Lowe's, Mier's, Publix, Target and many more. And we all are considering saving money on gas when it comes to driving very far just to find another appropriate store. After reading some of the posts here, I feel like I am living in NYC!! when it comes to shopping. And, its only little ole' Gahanna attached to Columbus, OH.

Where I live I have five large grocery stores to choose from the farthest away takes 15mins to drive to. The nearest is a five minute drive. I am very very lucky I think.

Because I buy only fresh foods I often go to the most expensive one as they have good produce specials and sell the specialty gluten free foods I cannot get at the other big chains. Their meat is also better quality than some of the other stores.

Carolyn

In my post yesterday, I forgot to mention Sam's.

Yes, I have a membership, but don't shop there often. I did buy my last Epson printer there last year, and went out the other day to look for a new TV. They had scores of the BIG, FLAT over $1,000. ones, but none would fit in my cabinet in my study. I have purchased printer ink there for good price a time or two.

Like to look around sometimes, but seldom need the large quantities they offer.

Sun

because you have no other option near you, or because they provide carts for you. I am fortunate to have more options available to me and i will NEVER shop in a Walmart or a Sam's and my family and friends know they should not tell me if they shop in them.

I won't shop there becuase of all the reasons that have been mentioned: low wages, controlling vendors' pricing, not following lunch, break and wage and hour regulations, no benefits, or having to work for a long time before getting benefits, etc. etc.

BUT THE BIGGEST REASON i won't shop there is that last year or the year before, FIVE OF THE TEN RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY WERE WALTONS. These people are billionaires, that's w/ a B, not an M. They are not a company that is living on the edge, they could darn well afford to pay better, give benefits and not have the rest of us providing our tax money to provide their employees w/ medicad or food stamps!!! And they could do it w/out living a piddlin' middle class life!

THEY ARE R-R-R-R-I-I-I-C-C-H-H-H and it is not just or fair that the rest of us have to subsidize their employees. It is pure GREED that keeps the WAltons and their executive team from making the decision to be fair and just employers to the people who are making them money......Jean

We do not have a Super Wal-Mart in our community. Yet. There is one 25 miles away, one 45 miles away, one 60 miles away. And one planned for our community. We do have a small Wal-Mart. I have always disliked that store.

To me, the management shows great disrespect for its customers. An example: one day-after-Thanksgiving sale which started early. I went in, overheard one employee tell another that they certainly wouldn't come in early for these "bargains." I certainly didn't stay.

Another example: Friends would go there to buy disposable diapers, only to find that the store would only have one size, the "mediums" for weeks at a time.

Another example: The store gets beautiful bedding plans for gardens in the spring. But I have to know what day the truck is bringing them, because the store does not invest in enough people to take care of these plants. They are not watered and are left in the sun on the hot pavement without attention, until they are beyond resuscitating. They do not mark down the half-dead plants, either, but continue selling them until they are barely green stalks, then discount them a bit. Dumpsters are then full of dead plants. To me that is a waste, and disrespectful of the customers who come to purchase these items.

The store is crowded, disorganized, and sells a great many things people don't ever need. When we go there, and to get some things in our community we need to go there sometimes, we take a list, try to find what we need and head back out.

When I drive to the nearby communities where there are larger Wal-Marts, I don't go there for WM, I go there for other reasons and rarely shop in WM. I often find that for regular items I need, I can get them for close to the same price in other stores that treat their customers and their employees better.

I am interested in IKEA simply because I have never been in one. It is furniture?? A friend who lives in Boston raves about the store and I have been curioius as to why it was included in the big box category.. I go to Target all the time and yet it wasnt included and as much as I love the store and the clever designed stuff in it, it is in fact a big big box.

But their method of hiring, providing benefits and their prices led me to include them. They are usually well received in a community and no one can beat their prices in household goods. Their stores are huge with many room displays in each department. I like the articles in the heading about them and their problems with offering baby sitting and cheap meals.

Target was not included in the heading as they are a discount store not a big box store. But, like you, Stephanie, I shop there pretty regularly, just bought some nice new baby items for our first great grandson.

For that matter, Walmart it not a big box store, just Sam's and Costco. But the company practices are the same and as Marni points out, the owners are riiiiiicccccccchhhhh(billionaires) and could easily pay better and supply good benefits.

Someone mentioned Brookshire's here and I have never heard of Brookshire's in Texas but they seem similar to Walmart. Will look them up right now.

Here's a link to Brookshires. They seem to be more like Kroger's and Publix and Giant Eagle. They offer fresh foods, bakery, pharmacy services, baby sitting, and gasoline. Their employee benefit program looks very good. And they take an active part in the communities that they serve.Brookshires Community Services

Brookshire Employee Benefits

Brookshires History

They also have a country store which is in the Dallas area named the Brookshire Country and Wildlife Museum. And, as you can read, they have been around since 1940's. Although, I lived in Austin, TX in the 50's, they weren't located there then, just Checkerfront in my neighborhood.

Stephanie, I really like IKEA, just because it is a fun place to visit. There is one not far from my brother's place outside Chicago and I go when I'm up there. It is Bright Blue and Yellow and huge and you can see it from miles away. Multi-storied with a HUGE parking low.

It's arranged so well, and there are always lots of employees around willing to help. Not just furniture, but kitchen items, pillows, lighting items, rugs, garden items, even toys in the area displaying things for children's rooms and food items. YOu can check it all out online.

At one time I thought it would be a good stock to buy, but unfortunately, it's from Sweden and they are privately owned.

Very innovative (at least to this country bumpkin) -- along side the escalators is a special track for the shopping carts. Would that every escalored store had such. I give Ikea 5 stars.

My experience of going to Ikea for the very first (and so far only) time:

http://funnytheworld.com/2005/Jul/28.htm

Ann - Small correction on your Brookshire post. If you look back at the Country Store/Wildlife link, you will find it is located in Tyler, TX. The Location link tells you how to get here From Dallas...to Old Jacksonville Rd. in Tyler. It's about five miles from where I live.

I guess I don't look at Brookshire's as another Big Box...They are just a very successful Supermarket chain, and yes, they are fairly good to employees, and very active in all Community Fund drives, and give much back to the community. Those that are interested, may add the family to the rrriiiccchhh list. The owners of most other big companies, or chains are rich, too.

My only reason for mentioning them in my post, was to say that Wal-Mart is NOT the one that drove all the supermarkets out of business here. Brookshire's did, mostly buying them out as they went. Yes, they are more expensive than Wal-Mart on groceries, and now that they have rid the city of all supermarkets but one (on it's way out), their prices are not quite as good as they used to be. Understand?

I shop there all the time, very nice stores (plus riding carts), but must confess they have their flaws, too. No point in going into all that, this discussion is about BIG BOX stores.

Incidently, we have 2 Super stores (W-M's) here, and a small older store which will soon be another Super store.

Sun

I guess I don't feel that the fact that the owners or founders of a store or chain got very rich from their business is a reason for not shopping there. The founders of many US corporations became super-rich and we still buy their products. I shop at Wal-Mart, and I use Windows products. Even if one is a Mac fan, Steve Jobs certainly is one of the super-rich. BTW, this doesn't mean I'm a conservative - I'm one of the most politically liberal people I know.

I just read an article about Steven Jobs who now serves on the IKEA board. I'll go look it up. Ooooops, an April Fool joke! But here's an article about the Forbe's richest in the world. The world's richest list from Forbe's magazine

I'm not against capitalism or people getting rich from hard work and providing something that customers want,it's just that when they treat their employees so badly economically that i believe they are behaving badly and i'm not going to support their bad behavior.......I know that my little boycott is not going to impact on the Waltons, but it makes me feel better.

....jean

five Walton's were five of the ten richest people in the WORLD!! not the country! If they gave oh=h=h $100 million to provide their employees w/ health insurance, they would not even notice that it was gone - how can people be so miserly and greedy? I'm sure they consider themselves "good Christian folk." They should go to their stores and pick up copies of "God's POlitics" and "When Jesus came to Harvard," and READ THEM, maybe that would prick their moral conscience and "Christian" behavior.

I also love Ikea and know that they and Costco both treat their employees much better than Wm and are obviously not hurting financially for doing so.

Do any of you agree w/ me that employers have a responsibility to treat their employees as well as they can, that they should be concerned w/ their employees' welfare?

My experience has been that when the employer behaves well toward their employees, they get much better behavior and service from their employees.........jean

My experience has been that when the employer behaves well toward their employees, they get much better behavior and service from their employees.

It would certainly seem logical. In this day and age, I don't even know any more, though, to tell you the truth. I find the whole employer / emloyee situation depressing, with each more interested in getting as much as they can get for themselves, without working together. It's hard to know which is a reaction to which.

It has always struck me odd, though, that we just naturally expect our employers to provide health care for us and for all of our family. When did my child's health get to be my employer's responsibility?

It has always struck me odd, though that we just naturally expect our employers to provide health care for us and for all of our family.

Bev, I think you have a good point. As a farmer we carried our own health insurance. I worked for eight years as an accountant for 2 different employers, and neither offered or provided health insurance or partial payment of such. This was in the 80s. and now the employee wants, demands full health coverage.

But that may be due to the high cost of health care, which can be traced to high prices charged by Drs., drug companies and hospital and the high liability insurance they must carry. It is a vicious circle.

I wonder how an employee, not in a dangerous job, can demand family insurance.
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Now about Walmart. Our Walmart is friendly. They have lots of people to help you. They under sell Staples on printer cartridges and office supplies. Even the HP printer bought there was $25.00 less than Staples.

Many working, had been working in the Mall, but Walmart offered more hours of work. They offered daytime hours or second shift hours for mothers of school children. Their local total donation to our local United Way and different charities was 30,000.00.
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So the Walton family is wealthy. Old Sam Walton had a good idea -- he worked hard and built the company. He did it honestly. If the employee thinks he is not paid enough, she/he can look for other work. He didn't get rich like the CEOs in large corporations like Enron.

An off-topic subject, but just a PS to patwest's comment, But that may be due to the high cost of health care, which can be traced to high prices charged by Drs., drug companies and hospital and the high liability insurance they must carry. It is a vicious circle.

I worked for a private medical office that was bought out by an HMO. I once had a lengthy conversation with my boss (the medical director) about how we got into such a mess. I wish I had recorded the conversation because I've referred to it many times. He explained that initially when it was difficult to get employees, employers began offering perks, like health insurance, in order to get good employees.

Then someone got the notion that by bundling several companies together, they could offer the employers a lower cost.

When the employers signed up with insurance groups, then the groups began whittling away the covered benefits.

In the end, the whole thing is a result of greed on everyone's part--employees who want as much as they can get for as little as possible, employers who want to offer as little as they can to keep the costs down, and the insurance companies who try to offer even less to keep their own costs down. And nobody wins.

But the problem is that we have lived through so many years of just assuming that the employer will take care of us, that nobody even thinks about getting private insurance. I was listening to a video journal by a young woman who is terrified because she has no insurance because she has no job. It hasn't even occurred to her to investigate alternatives.

OK--sorry for disrupting the Big Box discussion, but this whole health care issue has been a hotbutton for me for many years, on ALL levels!

Bev and Pat, I've been wondering ever since this discussion began just when it was deemed and by whom, that employers had to provide health care coverage. Sometimes I think it's too bad we didn't pay more attention to what Bill & Hillary Clinton were trying to achieve healthwise shortly after he was elected President. Of course all those special interest groups and "Harry and Louise" ads put the cabash on that. But when you think of it, probably the majority of us here over 65 have our medical insurance through the government. But, that's another topic.

Here is a press release out of Bentonville, Arkansas today regarding "Fair Share Health Care" legislation.

"This was the first legislative action on a special interest 'health care' bill since legislators in Maryland overrode a veto earlier this month. That this bill failed even to make it out of committee in the Wisconsin Assembly is a big setback to the Washington, D.C. union leaders driving these state-by-state attacks against large employers.
"We're hopeful that more state legislators across America -- like those in Wisconsin -- will come to realize that these bills are harmful to working families. Not only will they do nothing to control the cost of health care or improve access to health coverage, they will cost jobs and hurt economic growth. The American people want their legislators to resist special interest pressure and instead work with colleagues"

WalMart spokesperson

We should fix the issue of health insurance on a national level, it has become a burden for many employers and far too many people can not afford to buy their own, therefore, they don't go to the doctor when the problem is small and can be rectified. But the W-M spokesperson nicely deflected the spotlight away from their treatment of their employees. That was part of a response to their losing the suit for not allowing their employees to have a lunch break, violating state regulations.

I'm perfectly happy to rewrite my statement to read "if the WAltons gave, oh-h-h-h, $100 million to raise the wages of their employees, they would never even notice it was gone, they have so much money." taking the issue of health insurance out of it.

I am also angry at the disrespect they have shown the communities into which they want to move. They have bought whole pages of ads in newspapers to propagandize w/ lies about how they raise the wages of the area when they move in. They used as documentation a study of a professor at the U of Mass which said exactly the opposite and they had not asked permission to use her name or her study.

I know there are other businesses that are not good employers, or are not ethical in their business, but W-M just seems to have done one unethical/unkind/disrspectful (and now we see outright illegal) thing after another....Jean

One of the talking points Wal*Mart uses when asking city councils and county boards for permission to build in a community is that the store will bring in new taxes. Studies have shown that this is true, for the first seven years. After that, due to other businesses in the area closing for lack of trade, the tax base actually shrinks to below what it was before Wal*Mart built.

In any community, Wal*Mart pays whatever it takes to attract enough employees to run their store. Not a penny more. So, if there is high unemployment and lots of people are looking for jobs, then the wages are lower than say in an other area (even in the same state) that has fewer people looking for a job. All service jobs in areas where Wal*Mart is a big presence tend to pay on the same scale as Wal*Mart. The same goes for benefits. Whatever Wal*Mart is offering tends to be mirrored in the surrounding community.

I think it might be wise for me to interject two things.. First most if not all of the Walton children no longer participate in the active running of the company. The old man did, but once he died, they got into the money part. They are not active charitable doners like Bill and Melinda Gates, but I did read somewhere that they give a lot to the church. Second.. I live in Florida and I have certainly heard from other seniors that work part time and love it at WalMart. It gets them out.. they dont even want 20 hours , they just want to see people. etc. I dont agree with WalMarts hiring policies, but I also see the pleased looks on the greeters, etc in the store. Ikea sounds so neat. Will look them up on the web and then when traveling in the coach, maybe we can go somewhere and stop at once.

I live in a small city of about 90,000 where two of the Wal-Mart heirs live.......We have a super walmart and two more are under construction as I speak,.....they will replace two of the smaller stores.....It is kind of a love-hate relationship in this town as regards other businesses etc....also seems where Walmart wants to build they will.....They employ lots of people here who otherwise might not be able to work...as Stephanie, many seniors who need or want to work.....they also hire disabled and contribute lots of money to the community as a whole.......I shop frequently there as you cannot beat their prices.......I have returned anything and everything without a fuss.......no questions asked........I might add that the Walmart employees are unfailingly polite and helpful......that has been my experience.........

Stephanie, I love the greeters at the door. I like to buy the annuals in the spring. The greeting always looks so cheerful. I end up buying far more plants than planned.

I think the greeters really enjoy their jobs. It's nice to meet a smile as you walk in the door and not a frown.

also seems where Walmart wants to build they will.....

They have been rejected in this community twice. I do not see WalMart moving in here.

I suspect having the older greeters at the door was a stroke of genius because I suspect that, like the seniors Stephanie mentioned, they are pleased to get out and interact with more people. But I also suspect that these are people who are doing it for that social contact, not because they need the money (though I'm sure it's a nice complement to whatever they are living on now), as many of the other employees do. The problems that are continually cited with respect to WalMart probably affect the young mother trying to support a family more than the smiling greeter.

I don't think they are making much money either. Those greeters are on their feet a long time too. I talked to one lady greeter who complained. Since they are older, I don't know why they are not allowed to sit down between busy periods.

Speaking of greeters -- one of the greeters ay our WalMarts is a veteran in a wheelchair -- very capable of lining up carts and does a lot of visiting.

Bev....I should have been clearer in my post......Here, where we have the Wal-Mart family, they pretty much build where they wish.......there was a terrible row about the last place they chose as it borders on a school ground and residential neighborhood but in the end they are building there......made lots of nice concessions to the neighborhood however.........There is an enormous Hy-Vee grocery across the way and there was not the negativity against it......It is also bordering a neighborhood.........

Walmart pays more than the surrounding stores. It also provides cheaper yet still good insurance than any other store I've worked and that includes Sears, Montgomery Wards and Fred Meyers.

They also provide free classes and good scholarships to employees and families as well as a very good employee wage. Several stores that opened here would hire generously until the store opened and then let two thirds of the employees go. They also had a term that was called permanent part time or permanent halftime that was just under the hourly amount required to pay benefits, insurance or any other needed employee benefit including a living wage. Walmart hires full time and delivers on the benefits. After two years, its still hiring! If you ignore the rumors spread by those who simply don't like big box stores and if you actually investigate you will find many of the rumored negatives are just that, rumors.

Greeters are mainly there to greet you and to watch for shoplifters. The ones here are happy to be out and to be making a good wage. It is hard to stand for 4 hours a shift if you have problems and here a chair is provided if needed.

I'm not saying there aren't issues and problems. There are as there are with any corporate store. I just think you need to judge independently, rationally and by looking up the facts instead of just applying old rumors. We are old enough to recognize sensationalism and politicking aren't we?

Also before Walmart came here, Safeway and Fred Meyers had already squeezed out the smaller or independent groceries and we still have the majority of our smaller arts and crafts stores even after two years with Walmart. I also make more than I ever did with any of the other stores as a display professional.

Enjoyed your post Angelface......As I posted earlier.. It is hard to find a disgruntled looking Wal-mart employee here.......This is a thriving community I live in and a BIG Wal-mart town.......three super centers for a town of 85 to 90,000..........I give kudo's to Wal-Mart for hiring disabled here in our town as I expect they do in others........

Angleface, I was glad to read your post. You said pretty much what my friend who works at WalMart has told me in the past. She's happy with them too.

Nancy (Tigerlily?) you're not too far from me. We have two Supercenters and a Sam's in the county, parking lots always full with lots of cars from across the river in Illinois. I'm sure they have grocery stores there, but I'm happy they come here to spend their money.

When I came to this town almost 30 years ago I had never been in a WalMart. The only thing I knew about them was that they gave a local kid a scholarship each year. When they built their first Supercenter and moved out of their old store (now Hobby Lobby) everyone thought they were nuts because they were way out of town. Now that area is prime property and booming. And we still have a few family owned small appliance stores left in town.

Hi NANCY and PEDLN, Missouri seems to be well represented here with a good attitude towards the Wal Mart stores. Rural America tends to be grateful to these giants who bring both top quality merchandise AND jobs to their door steps. Moberly not only has a supercenter, but also is home to a huge midwest distribution center for Wal Mart stores which was built right next door to our supercenter a few years ago. That makes them a major employer offering competitive wages in this area. Job turnover is low so that tells me that they must be doing something right that keeps long term employees punching that time clock.

I was so glad to hear from an actual employee. Makes you feel better about the big stores. I live in an area where I can go to a Superwalmart, but have other choices as well and am glad that I do. There are items that Walmart does well and there are other items, that I would much rather get from a supermarket or Target or Kohls..

They date from Aug 2005 to now. Not all bad news! But definitely some. Walmart News and the most recent info from the Walmart site. Walmart Global Stores

But when I want a definite bargain, I will go to our superstore here in Columbus. And, I received a phone call yesterday from a friend in Florida who is trying to decide on a Part D medicare rx program. Her first remark was that the best rx prices are at Walmart so they are good for that.

Also, when I need a large supply, I ask my DIL to get it for me at Sam's. For instance, yesterday, I asked her to pick up a dishwashing detergent for me. Its almost half-price from Sam's. Also, she will get me double supply of Benefibre at half-price. Its just so tempting to try and save money.

Right Ann.........I do the same thing and LOVE their big bags of walnuts and pecans which I freeze...........

And according to some of the posters in here, their produce is the best. I know that my SIL brought some thinly sliced sandwich ham to us and I was sneaking around eating it by the handful. Best d... ham for sandwiches that I have ever tasted!

Sams does a stuffed salmon pinwheel that is a killer. We get them, separate them out and freeze them. Delicious and reasonable. When I think about it, I remember growing up that any large store was thought of as a destroyer. My Mother would never go to KMart, because she blamed them for W.T. Grants closing in our little town. Change is never good as you get older.

Do any of you shop at Aldi's? It's kind of a grocery counterpart to Dollar General. They started out with mostly discount/off brand cans and staples, now carry pretty much everything. I find it a pain to shop there because the lines are long (always), and it's only cash and you bag your own. Plus you have to put in a quarter to get a cart. You can get it back, but it's hard for arthritic fingers. They're owned by the same outfit that owns Trader Joe's.

We have a new store in town -- The Dented Can store. Haven't been there yet, but if you use a lot of canned goods they've got 'em cheap.

We've just gotten an Aldi's here. I've been there a couple of times. The prices seem to be good, and the store brands I've tried are very good. It's a very small store here, and there have never been more than a few shoppers when I was there. I haven't had to wait in line. It's a new concept for this area, so may take a while to catch on. I probably won't shop there much - for the same reason. I hate having to stop at more than one store. I didn't realize it was owned by Trader Joe's.

I didn't realize Aldi's was owned by Trader Joe's! Anything in there that Trader Joe's carry's? We have an Aldi's and it is very popular here as I think savings can be good.......I hate the cart thing and having to carry cash......imagine!........lol

Nancy, Our Aldi store accepts debit cards.

OOOOOOOOh Bunnie great! Maybe thery do here too........I shall check because we can all benefit by saving a few dollars........do they have good fresh produce and how is their tuna?.......canned of course......

Nancy, Our Aldi's accepts cash or debit cards - just not checks or credit cards.

Our Aldi's is in a rather undesirable neighborhood, so I like the debit card usage. That way I leave my purse in the trunk and take only my keys, card and quarter for the grocery cart

NANCY, we like their fresh produce just fine. It is ALWAYS lots cheaper than what they have at Wal Mart and has always seemed to be fresh. Most everything they stock is cheaper than I can buy at Wal Mart and usually I will shop there first and then what items on my list that I can not find there, I will get from Wal Mart. Now as for tuna, I do not care for the canned tuna as I prefer what comes in the vacuum packages. Sometimes I find it in Aldis and sometimes they do not have it in stock.

Their weekly specials do have some nice bargains in quality merchandise that are not normally stocked. Point of interest...I bought my last desktop computer at Aldis and it has been an absolute dream to use. I am hoping they will run another computer promotion as I would also love to get a lap top by the same maker.

IKEA is Swedish, but did you know that Aldi's headquarters are in Germany?

I didn't know that about Aldi's, Pat, and was wondering if I was correct about the Trader Joe's connection. Actually, I found that Trader Joe's is owned by Aldi's parent company. Aldi's has about 40% of the grocery business in Germany and is apparently using its "hometown" advantage to give WalMart a run for its money.

Dont have Aldi or Trader Joe in Florida, that I know of. I have always meant to remark that when we travel in our motor coach, we never do the overnight parking thing at Walmart, but we do see Walmarts in the smallest of towns all over the south and midwest. We generally use them for groceries because it is hard to know if a grocery store of an unknown brand is good or not. I have gotten really burned by some groceries on the road. Went into a Piggly Wiggly in Memphis that should have been burned down years ago. Filthy hole.. But there is a nice small supermarket chain in North Carolina, that we like very much. Still we tend to stick to Walmart, because I have some idea what they will have.

What great posts about Aldi's and ownership......thank you Bunnie for your detailed post....I will be stopping in there soon............I am fortunate to have Sam's, superwalmart and Aldi's all on my side of town......Aldi's used to be in a less than desirable spot but has moved into the mainstream ...............

But they seem to choose the undesirable neighborhoods. PatW, you have a weapon to take with you! Tee hee! But not all of us use a cane.

I have a couple of friends who shop at Aldi's and like it. Even if they are based in Germany, does that mean they aren't connected with Trader Joe's. Aldi's owns Trader Joe's. My gosh, whose been Googling in here??? hahaha!

I remember when my husband and I first got married in 1955. We went shopping with my mother. She shopped in butchers,small grocery stores, fish market, and vegetable and fruit man that came to our neighborhood. I thought my new husband would have a heart attack when he saw the prices of meat in the butcher. At that time the A&P was fairly new but that's where his mother shopped. Needless to say we never shopped small stores again.

So what I am saying is that if and I say if Walmart puts small stores out of business they are certainly not the first. When supermarkets became the big thing the small stores like the ones I mentioned ended up closing. So it is nothing new. That was 50 years ago.

IMO if Walmart goes into a small town and the neighborhood shops end up closing isn't it just that the towns people aren't supporting their neighbors but are going where the price is right.

jeriron - I totally agree with you - if folks wouldn't shop at WalMart and the other big stores, they wouldn't prosper, and the small shops would be staying open. I also understand that the big chains can offer their lower prices because they buy from the suppliers in such quantities that they have the bargaining power to get lower prices for themselves.

Has anyone ever thought about the part that small stores played in Community support. I remember when all the shopkeepers knew my name. They knew my kids names. The local shoe store offered to let me buy all four children shoes at one time and pay them three monthly instalments with no interest. Mr Bonnicci was the store owner and he had five children himself. He stocked good quality shoes at fairly reasonable prices. He was forced out of business by the big discount shoe chains about 1990.

When my babies were born the local pharmacist gave me a huge gift basket of baby goods. He had known me since I could toddle. The small stores were where people exchanged community news. Where people learnt of births and deaths and where we interacted. There was many an offer of help made while chatting in the small stores.

The loss of this interaction between people is something sorely missed. We have become isolated.

carolyn

one at either end of our town. A very nice smaller Acme in the center of town has been a godsend for over 50 years. It is in a neighborhood where there are many senior citizens and others who don't have cars who can walk to the store. It is a place where we meet and greet and catch up w/ our friends. They are always busy.........well, the lease is up on that property and it will CLOSE in February.

If I go to the "big" Acmes - first of all i HAVE to drive there, secondly, if i need three or four items, I have a longer walk from the parking lot, a long walk thru the store that is at least 3 or 4 times the walk I would have in the "little Acme."

Many in town are very sad about the closing, but there appears to be nothing we can do.....since reading your posts about Aldi, maybe we should hope that they will take over the building.....Jean

No Aldi in Texas. I went to the Aldi site and the closest one to me is 183 miles

I guess that is a bit far to go for a loaf of bread.

Jean, I heard others make similar remarks about Dollar General Stores -- "If I want a tube of tooth paste or soap powder it's easy in and easy out and you don't have to walk a mile in the store."

Has anyone here heard of Meijer's stores? (Not Fred Meyers) They are very similar to Walmart but are in five midwest states only. They got their start in the area where I live, Grand Rapids, MI area. They are very much like Walmart and were here long before Walmart ever existed. They are strictly a privately owned company and they treat their employees better than Walmart treats theirs. They carry top quality merchantise and also a full line of fresh fruits and vegtables and groceries. The man who fonded the company also gives a lot back to this communtiy, the most noted being his donation of the land for the Frederick Meijer Gardens which in now a world class sculpture and botanical garden. His family has donated millions for the new heart center addition to our hospital.

Does anyone know if the Walton family has done anything similar?

Denjer.....in each community Wal-Mart is in they contribute much to the community in the way of scholarships, money etc..........and of course one knows people in Wal-Mart because it is your neighbors and friends who are working there................Here in my community the family gave around half a million or more for a new baskeball stadium for the University of Missouri......now......I don't need to go into the rukus about the name and why it was changed........they family gives a lot to this town.............as well as the Wal-mart store

I have been much involved in Books with the “1776” discussion and other projects and had not realize that this discussion had begun. I too have very mixed feelings about the box stores. Quite frankly sometimes shopping at these stores seems almost depressing just looking for what you need to buy. There are no clerks to provide direction or answer questions. It makes me long for the old days when the sales staff in some departments at our local downtown department store knew me by name and was always available to help. That will never happen at Walmart today. Even so I feel I would be a fool to ignore the significantly lower prices available at Walmart and similar stores. During the remaining days of this discussion I will see if I can add some comment documenting some reasons why in my mind I have rationalized that these stores should be considered socially acceptable today

put in a circular crochet piece I am making to go above a fireplace mantel. I asked at Michaels, nothing; at A.C.Moore they had a nine inch brass circle for macame. That would work for the smaller stability, but i also needed a larger circle. I stopped at Home Depot - no, they said, they didn't have anything. I said it didn't have to be metal, it could be plastic - no. I went to a local florist. They didn't have any frames, but she went to get a tomato stand to see if she could cut the top off for me - at least a suggestion - it turned out to be the same 9 inch size as what i had.

I came back into town and went to a small local hardware store that has been here since time began. The two men there put on their thinking caps and we went to look at some plastic tubing. I tho't it might be study enough and asked if they had a suggestion of how i could connect it to itself to make a circle. One of the men went to the section w/ headless nails and searched and tried sev'l until he found a size that fit perfectly into the tubing so it stayed together. His wife was a knitter and he recognized that it had to be smooth so that the yarn wouldn't catch on it.............Thank heaven for small local stores......yes, they can't carry everything, but sometimes they can problem solve and make it happen!!!..

Oh, yeah, it cost me 40 cents for tubing, the nail was free

....jean

jean, I remember that kind of service - and it's rare to find it anymore. I could go to the hardware store to get something for John to use on something he was doing. The owner would give me several things that might work, I'd pay for one, and he'd tell me to bring back the ones that didn't work.

Unfortunately, except maybe in smaller towns, that kind of service is pretty much gone - AND has been for a long, long time. You were lucky to find somebody like that.

The WalMart heirs have not put together a coherent plan of donations. They each do or do not give as they desire. They are not the clear sort of thinkers like Bill and Melinda Gates or several other computer type fortunes. These people think out what and how they want to do things. I wish the Waltons did as well, but they simply dont.

We had an article in our local paper about the sheer volume of WalMart and the innovations they have in how they do business. Some was quite interesting, but the sad thing for me is I found out how and where they got their Salmon and now must never buy it again. Oh well..

I call it the "rape of the small towns."
Stores such as these took away the mom and pop stores; these businesses that serviced residents in our small towns and personally caused the death of my father. When the state took his business to build an arterial highway thru our small town, he gave up after a long fight with the system. It ultimately caused his death. It's a shame but what can we do when the government can take a mans life long business and make it a highway or when our huge conglomerates such as Wal-Mart want to expand? Do we have a choice? Will my persistant stubborness to not shop at them make any bloody difference, I ask?

It seems the bottom line is now the only line. Good point about government actions, Andy. I don't understand the Supreme Court ruling on eminent domain, but did any of you see the CNN news last night about the church in Oklahoma? The county officials have deemed the church and its environs to be the best place to build a minimall. The church officials were told that if they didn't accept the offer, the land would be taken anyway by means of eminent domain.

Stephanie, your comments prompted me to do more research on the Walton family and their philanthropies. The elder Waltons (Sam and Helen) were pillars of the Presbyterian Church and have a separate foundation that contributes to church development. The Walton Family Foundation is the biggie: its donations in 2003 totalled $106 M. It gave $4 million for Katrina relief.

The article below is fascinating because it profiles all the Walton kids, their upbringing and their current positions and passions. The Walton Foundation has stepped on the toes of public education because of its hefty donations to education reform groups, especially those advocating vouchers and charter schools. This apparently is very close to John Walton's heart.

The Waltons:Inside America's Richest Family

Read the article. It gives a good picture of the morphing from "hard-working & wealthy" to "really really rich."

but why don't they pay their employees better salaries and provide better benefits???? Maybe because they get tax relief from putting their money into foundations or giving it to charity?

I just don't get it! If a company is doing as well as Walmart, why can't they share their riches w/ the people who have have helped, and keep helping them, get outrageously wealthy? I remember something about charity begins at home??? Why do my tax dollars and my medical dollars have to subsidize Walmart's employees when the company is swimming in money. They may be wonderful Presbyterians, but it seems to me they are not very good at being "Christian" in their behavior.

Does any one remember the man in New England who when the plant burned down paid his employees their salaries until a new plant was built? Now that's generous, caring, kind, sharing, "Christian" - if you would - behavior.

Some of the people who are employees at Walmarts are having a nice time getting out, working part-time, don't really care about how much money they are making, or whether they have benefits. Others who may really need more, may - and I"m not saying this is true for all - feel they don't deserve more from an employer, that "all" they are doing is being a "clerk" and the executives are doing the "really important stuff" for the company.

That's baloney!! It's that kind of mentality that have kept many places from being unionized and I'm hearing more and more horror stories about work places, that if they were organized and had power in numbers they would be able to speak up and fix workplace problems.Because some unions have abused their power, many people have decided all unions are dirty, and now many workplaces have no way for employees to address any grievance.

I have a friend who works for a major drug firm. Her office and the factory floor is freezing because fuel has become expensive and the company has turned off the heat!!! The employees are wearing extra layers of clothes, which is illegal in the "clean" zone of the factory, and my friend, who is in an office, has hands so cold they hurt! If they had a union that could never happen.

If my employer is one of the richest employers in the world, I want more from him/her than lower, middle-class wages and the mimimal of benefits, because I AM HELPING THEM to be one of the richest employers in the world......jean

I'm sure there are pros and cons to both sides of the unions. I grew up in a very union town. I remember when I was a kid and my family was painting our living and dining room. Some union men knocked on our door on a weekend and demanded to know who was doing the painting, and pointed at my teenage brother wanting to know if he was a member of the household. My mother taught elementary school. She asked the school custodian to hang a picture for her, but he said he couldn't because the carpenter's union would get after him. So the principal stood on a chair and my mother handed him the hammer and he hung the picture. Now that's a lot of power.

A good bit of the anti-Walmart attitude is due to unions because they haven't been able to unionize Walmart, and also to attacks by the NEA because of the Walmart Foundation's contributions to school voucher groups.

It undermines the good work unions have done and are doing. Individual employees have no leverage against abusing employers if they aren't organized. I was director of a YWCA in the late 70's and we got so many calls from women who were having bad situations at their work that they really couldn't do anything about because they would be in danger of getting fired just by speaking up.

I've been a member of a union in every job i've had where it was possible for me to join - in some jobs I was considered management and could not belong, but i was still supportive of the union - and I never personally saw a situation where the union abused its leverage. It was a voice for the employees to be sure they were not being taken advantage of......jean

Let's take this "BIG BAD WALMART" to the ultimate conclusion. I am sick of hearing the sad “woe is me” tales about Wal-Mart coming into a small rural area and wiping out the "mom & pop" stores. What about the Hardy's- McDonalds - Burger Kings and on and on. Where is the outcry about the little dinners being run out of town by these mega-restaurants? Where is the outcry for the poor elderly folks who have to work to supplement their meager social security income and the zit-faced teenagers with no union representation at these un-unionized companies? Unions? Sure, just take a look GM and Ford…Unions?(wink – wink) you bet. If you are really genuinely concerned about the poor people who work at Wal-Mart, invest in Wal-Mart stock, and donate your quarterly earnings to their benefits package. God bless Wal-Mart….Doug

I just cannot get worked up about Wal-Mart being the big bad boy on the block either.........I like Wal-mart.......I shop at Wal-mart as well as at other stores.......I know people at Wal-Mart.......I have friends who work at Wal-Mart.........

Unions-Are they good or bad???

The end of this discussion arrives on Tuesday night and I am enjoying hearing all of the different folks opinions here.

I have come to the conclusion that one could actually compare unions and Walmart or Meijers or KMart and really get an interesting discussion going.

Don't be tired of hearing from homeowners, little businesses, small towns when you hear them speak about companies like Walmart and others with similar practices. I spoke earlier for one small town in NY that I am familiar with since my daughter has lived there for 24 years and is active in her small community. I will repeat! In their town there is an area that is designated flood plain which is where Walmart wanted to locate. The town fathers fought it for 10 or 12 years and for some unknown reason, gave up and gave them a building permit. That was just the first foot in the door! Now, on that flood plain, there are many huge stores such as, Walmart, Officemart, B&N, can't remember them all.

In this process, these big stores have pushed out the town's smaller businesses in what once was an active downtown area with a commons where many different activities went on such as, the apple festival, the Commons 4th of July celebration, the Farmer's Market. Because everyone has deserted the stores on the Commons and are now shopping in another section of town where the bigger stores are located, "Community" suffers. When we are all just out there trying to get our weekend shopping done--fast, fast, fast--"Community" goes by the wayside. We just don't have time to stop and discuss it.

I am not even going to touch the union topic right now as we could just go on and have another totally different discussion one day on that.

Back to the idea of big stores taking over the world, its up to us whether we shop there or not but I totally admire "marni" for sticking to her guns when she thinks its wrong.

But, after saying that, I must admit that I had no idea that Walmart also brought so much to towns in the middle of nowhere. Possibly goods that some of these folks will never get their hands on locally.

I believe the giving end of the Walmart family is looking more like a tax saving for them. I agree that they should be thinking more about their employees. In the big scheme of things, other companies like IKEA and Costco and Meijers seem to be raking in a big profit without slighting their employees so why can't Walmart follow their examples?? Now, I have a couple of links to go back and read. Back later!

A little off the topic, but a couple of interesting news blurbs this morning.
The top five states that have the greatest disparity between richest and poorest. I'm not sure if the figures were avg. income for indivuals or for families. Texas was one of them; what surprised me was No. 5 -- Kentucky

Bill Gates is donating $300 M to fight tuberculosis worldwide, and it will increase to $900 M by year 201?.

I don't know enough about the super rick to either denigate or applaud their philanthropies. Warren Buffet, Paul Allen, Ellison (who he?) are all ranked higher than individual Waltons.

Thousands apply for jobs at new Wal-Mart

January 26, 2006

BY LESLIE BALDACCI Staff Reporter

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-walmart26.html

Eighteen months after the Chicago City Council torpedoed a South Side Wal-Mart, 24,500 Chicagoans applied for 325 jobs at a Wal-Mart opening Friday in south suburban Evergreen Park, one block outside the city limits.

The new Wal-Mart at 2500 W. 95th is one block west of Western Avenue, the city boundary.

Jeriron times must be hard. I have never heard of such a high percentage here wanting jobs in a store Like Wal Mart even allowing for the tiny population we have. Average job application list is around 80 for a good paying job.

Carolyn

Tough tiddly winks for Chicago's south side, but I can't feel sorry for them. WalMart went where they were wanted and now Evergreen Park will get the sales tax money, much of it no doubt from all those drivers of car with Chicago stickers.

And watch Maryland shed crocodile tears when WalMart scraps plans for an 800 job distribution center and moves it to Delaware where the business climate is more hospitable.

Looks like there are trade-offs in everything.

I believe the giving end of the Walmart family is looking more like a tax saving for them. I agree that they should be thinking more about their employees. In the big scheme of things, other companies like IKEA and Costco and Meijers seem to be raking in a big profit without slighting their employees so why can't Walmart follow their examples?? Now, I have a couple of links to go back and read. Back later!

But Ann, how can they save money by giving to charity. At best the Tax deduction will amount to about 1.3 of the charitable donation. They still are the poorer by 2/3's of the amount donated.

And true the Waltoms got filthy rich in the early years, but Walmart stock to day has not been particularly profitable. My Investment club bought it about 10 years ago. A year or two later we may have had about $10/ share gain. Since then the price has fluxuated widely droping even below the price we paid for it. Today we may have a $4 to $5/ share gain. For the last 10 years we have made the same per individual share return on our 100 shares as the Walton Kids have made on their billion shares. The annual pershare cash divdidnd is less than 2%

In other words the owners are not making outlandish returns on their investment today.

The Waltons do not give in charitable numbers the way others do. They do give to to their church and have set up a foundation to do that, but most of the rest of the giving is more in the line of moderately rich families.. They could be helping to change the world like the Gates and Paul Allen and other computer industry millionaires, but they simply dont. I dont argue, it is their money, but I do think it shows where their thoughts are. I honestly do not think they look at their family industry as something they are supposed to care about. I like and use Sams.. I am now officially dying to see an Ikea and an Aldi,, neither is in Florida.

Isn't it funny how a lot of these stores give us what we want and we complain about them. We all want to get something for nothing but when companies start doing all their manufacturing overseas so they can give us cheaper goods we grip about that. There are always trade-offs to be made. If you apply for a job at walmart and settle for a job there, how can you complain about it? What am I missing here?

But doesn't 2% of a billion dollars or shares mean a lot more to someone than 2% of 100 dollars or shares. I am not sure which you are counting. And, 1.5 reduction on all that money, billions here, doesn't sound all that bad.

Deems

We are not saying companies shouldn't profit but when one looks at the bottom line of profit and thinks it excessive, one wonders if that money couldn't be spent to better the lives of the company workers. And, take the responsibility of paying for health care off the backs of the taxpayers.

Yes, its true that the workers have agreed to the terms of their workplace and that's their choice. But, when other companies try to follow the rules and one company seems to be breaking all the rules, its rankles most of us. Did you read about the suit filed in California and lost by Walmart where they weren't paying for lunch time hours or even giving them lunch hours in some cases? Of course, people get upset.

Stephanie

IKEA sounds like it would be worth visiting but from what I have seen of Aldi's, I wouldn't worry about not having it in Florida. Sort of like the early grocery stores(the PX or BX) on service bases in the '50's. Not much choice. I know they are much better now.

I did read the article about all the people who applied for work at Walmart and was astounded.

While we're talking about big boxy discount stores, have you ever been to Fry's? Huge huge electronics store. Chicago just got one this past year or so and I was real happy to get a wi-fi card for about half price. Houston has one, and Seattle. Their website is called outpost.

On one of the Fox News programs this morning, some guru made the statement that only 8% of the private sector is unionized. That surprised me.

Carolyn, who pays for the health care in your country? Is it the government or are people insured through their employment.

Is there anyone else here whose country funds health care in some other manner? I'm not trying to start a new topic, but it seems we're assuming that it's the employer's duty to provide health care.

We have a National Health care plan and most people subsidise with a private plan for surgery so we can get non urgent surgery done when we want to and not go on a prioritised waiting list.

About 40% of people here have Private insurance and use both Public and Private Healthcare.

I think the problem you have over there is an insurance problem. We have Accident Compensation Insurance over here run by Govt and that sorts out medical misadventure etc. Private law suits are rare. That makes our medical insurance far cheaper than yours.

However there would still be probably 40% of the population who rely on the public sector entirely and could not afford even our private health care costs.

Because of the way your health care system is set up and the relatively low minimum wage you have I can see why people would want the employers to fund health care if they are on minimum wage.

I can see the day coming shortly where we will have to pay a weekly sum to the Govt to help with health care as its becoming unaffordable for the Govt alone as our population ages and people expect to have their lives prolonged far beyond what our parents expected from the National Health care system.

The thing about hospitalization and the private sector.. I had several small retail stores. The average owner simply cannot afford insurance for the employees. They dont really make enough to be able to afford their share if we decided to try and carry it.. Until you have about 50 employees, insurance companies do not give you a break at all.. Too small a pool from their point of view. I think that if we had not started all of his hospital insurance, that people would have risen up and rebelled against hospitals, doctors and primarily drug companies.. When your employer or medicare or medicaid pays these bills, you look at them and marvel, but do nothing.. But imagine if you are hit with the bill. I know fromhaving very expensive private insurance with a huge deductible that if I need surgery ( cataract for example), I went to the bookkeeper and made a deal. I would pay with a check the day of surgery and wanted and got a large discount. They love money right away.

If you had right from the word go started a pay as you earn National health scheme if you wanted private insurance as well it would have been a lot cheaper. However in saying this Americans seem to be anti federal Govt taking taxes so perhaps with this mindset it would never work in the US.

In one cake auction, a loaf of banana bread went for $750.00! A honey seed cake for over $1000.00! The employees here go by the "Ten foot rule" which states that you must smile and speak to a customer within ten feet of you.

We get awards when customers call in to acknowledge good service!

The myth that Walmart employees are on the dole is just that. A myth! But it certainly makes for good propaganda doesn't it? People today are more apt to believe what is gossiped rather then finding out the truth. Did you ever think that the reasons the stores are so successful is both good marketing and good employee relations? They want to keep employees. Most stores don't if there is a large labor pool to draw from!

Walmart stores are only as good or bad as the people in the stores. If you don't want to shop at a Walmart, then don't. But don't let gossip tell you what o do. Read about it in actual mainstream publications. Look at prices, employees and conditions in Walmart and in other stores. Compare prices and produce, meat and food safety dates. Check into where and how the food is distributed. Do your homework and then come back and tell me what you think of large box stores!

And for the information for anyone who hasn't discovered the truth about American made goods; most are not and you can put made in America if it is only the [parts that were assembled here. Most products have raw materials coming from more then one country and the finished product from another.

Another fact is that America has just as many overseas markets and factories as the rest of the countries and we have a far worse reputation for them then we do for our erstwhile leader!

I am so sick of people spouting gossip or "news" from left or right wing publications rather then actually discovering the truth about a issue. But then that would involve using your own grey matter instead of being spoon fed the most popular gossip of the moment!

One thing that is unarguable is that China having such low wages exports its low cost goods to stores like Wal Mart and our discount stores. This puts our manufacturers out of business. The demand for these low cost goods puts our countries into huge overseas debt. Debt far exceeding export incomes. Hence the large balance of payments deficit in the USA and in my own country. We as consumers are greatly responsible for this deficit with our insatiable appetites for buying these goods forsaking our own manufacturers. You will find stores like Walmart stock very few goods made locally.

The chickens will come home to roost unless the balance of payment deficits are reduced. Its a bigger picture than most imagine.

In this time of public owned stock most companies are internationally owned. The factories and the employees are what drives the bottom line but the consumers are what creates that bottom line. Out sourcing can only succeed where a stock is publicly owned. How many of western products are actually owned and produced in the parent countries?

Lets be realistic here. A New Zealand product or an American product that is conceived, owned, made and sold in that country is an illusion. And how many of us own stock? Do we know the details of those stocks?

Angelface you just pointed out the fact that manufacturing is outsourced. Sure stockholders get income from this. However this income does not make the bulk of what is needed to boost local economies. You need manufactured goods alongside agricultural goods that are made in our own countries and earn overseas dollars. Its not how good the internal economy is that is tax take v expenses its what is owed overseas that can bring a country to its knees, Its time we all took heed of this.

Its also our own fault we allow takeovers of our companies by foreign buyers and allow majority stocks to be held by foreigners. We are the authors of our own misfortunes.

Anyone from anywhere and everywhere can and does buy stock in these companies and how much stock often effects not only the operations but also the locale of the company.

In this smaller, modern world and global economy; these companies are not local but international. I don't think we have American or New Zealand companies anymore. They went global decades ago and the problems we are seeing now have been forming for years and the solutions are probably already in the works and probably from some other national as well.

Proctor and Gamble which many believe to be an American company is actually owned by more Belgium, German and Arab owners than Americans. I think Americans own less then 2 percent of stock.

This is a reality and precisely the point I was trying to make. If we are going to complain about the effects on a single country, the majority of stock owners will simply agree to the company managers proposals for a new locale. That is simply business and that is simply the truth in today's world and economy. If we wish to effect change, we must do it globally.

Believe it or not we still have two NZ owned Supermarkets! I patronise them if I can get there. The rest of our food stores are owned by the Australians as are our biggest frozen food companies. They also own nearly all of our banks. It is a sore point with me. I do not mind joint ventures with 50-50 ownership as we need capital but not where we have complete sell outs to foreign companies.

Bravo Angel face ...well said and from someone who actually works there.....I just shop there and totally pleased with the service I recieve and the goods.....I have never , not once, asked for help in a Wal=mart store that I didn't recieve help....usually the person will take me to the item which I cannot find..........

Nancy, I have on occasion when asking in Wal Mart about the location of a certain item, have had the clerk go and fetch the item and bring it to ME without my requesting them to do so. They are all very friendly and eager to be of assistance at our local store.

I'm like Bunnie and Nancy - I've had good service from WM employees, answering questions and finding things for me.

I drive a 1985 olds Cutles Supreme and keep it up and it keeps me going but it only has about 60,000 miles on it. My 1985 Chev astro that sets in the garage has about the same mileage on it. They are very good products so I keep the tried and true things and have many people who would like to buy it but I would not sell it even for one million dollars.

I do shop at Wal-Marts and like the service and products.

Ginger

I have an article right here in front of me about the Indiana toll road (90) being sold to a company in Spain. And another one urging Ohio to do the same thing. I understand what is being accomplished doing this but it was quite a surprise. Actually not a bad idea when one understands that they are taking over the running, repairing, the employing, the collections and paying the state a huge sum to do so. The contract doesn't end for 75 years. Just like when the Japanese took over the Empire State or Chrysler buildings, I forget which.

In California, Oregon, the west coast of Canada and others, much of the real estate is owned by Japan and China and many of the golf/country clubs also. Nothing seems to have hurt the country over these. Its just business sense. Its part of the flattened world which Tom Friedman has written so brilliantly about in his book, "The World Is Flat". He makes a new way of understanding the world with its outsourcing, out banking, sound acceptable. After our discussion long ago about outsourcing, I was much impressed by the countries who had improved by educating themselves so that they could become insourcers, ie.India, China, Chechoslovakia, Bulgaria. Do we not want these fellow world citizens to have a better life? Do we want to see starving people in Africa and India and China who could maybe be living better lives by learning to do whatever the richer countries need for them to do?

I am fully aware of the sweat factories and the small Indian boys being chained to their looms and other awful practices, but that doesn't cause me to give up on these countries and certainly not to fear them. I am so tired being told how fearful I should be.

I get email messages about remembering the good old days and bashing the way things are now. The world doesn't stop turning for any generation, nor should it. Life is a circle and it is a cycle. History teaches us that the only constant is change.

If we don't care for something then we should change it. It may not be immediate and that is what bothers many people and causes apathy; but it does eventually change if we keep at it. Personally I don't see much that we need to carry over from the "good old days!".

Still talking about WalMart? I have already mentioned I use them mostly because they provide the carts, that I need to shop. But that's not all. I have always like the availability of everything under one roof. None of that running from one end of the mall to the other, or from store to store.

I'm the confessed Non-Shopper, never like doing it. So convenience really counts for me. And I have never encountered but one person at WalMarts that was a hateful, non-helpful, bad employee. After all these years, that's a pretty good record.

Sun

Time marches on, along with change! We just want improvements along with those changes.

There's a Walmart in the middle of Alaska?? Who would have thought?

"Time marches on, along with change!" say Ann and Angelface. Right on.

Somewhere I once read that Sam Walton may have been one of the first "computerized" CEO's. One thing contributing to WalMart's profitability is its very excellent computerized inventory system. They started early on, and their system in now a model for many other enterprises.

Pedlin, you are right. I looked up some stuff and sure enough , on of Walmarts great steps forward has been their ability to prioritize inventory needs and get the new goods to the stores rapidly. I liked some parts of the good old days and some parts of now. Since I grew up in a small town, I do miss the lovely small town atmosphere. I loved having a main street, shopping and knowing each and every store owner. But I also like paying less for products and since I am short, when I was young, there were no petite type clothing and now with all the big stores, there is a whole line of many products in petite. However I Love my neighborhood supermarket and shop there rather than Walmart, when we are home. On the road in the coach, we often prefer Walmart, but home,, my supermarket has a fish department and they recognize me and tell me when the different fish came in. I love going to the whole food market and getting some products that are only produced in small numbers. I love using Amazon on line, because I read all of the time and WalMart has horrible book departments..There is good in Walmart and there is bad.. Same for all stores.

We have just about run out of the good and bad things about Walmart and other big box stores. Seems most of us would like to see IKEA sometime just to see what all the hullabuloo is about. Costco didn't bring on too much interest although they are supposed to be the employer of the month when it comes to them and Walmart.

Thanks to all of you for commenting on our topic. I really enjoy discovering how others see the world. We are all different. Viva la difference!

I hope you will join us in the Curious Minds folder next month when Barbara St Aubrey will bring a new topic to our attention.

This has been a fascinating discussion, and I have used it many times in the past two weeks to generate discussion with some face-to-face groups. Thanks so much, Ann, for bringing it to us.

I wanted to put Barbara's title here. The CM discussion in February will be titled "Family Portrait". Can't wait to see what its all about.

Thanks for the discussion. It has been enlightening. I think Costco was not exactly under represented as much as the fact that there aren't as many Costco stores as there are Wal*Mart. Home Depot, Lowe's, and the big box electronic stores didn't come in for much comment either. I think if more guys had been here there would have much more talk about those.

I, myself, am a Home Depot groupie! I love that place. And, Loews,too. I spent so much time in the Home Depot in Kennesaw, GA picking up orders for my husband who was finishing our terrace level with its own apartment, that the greeters and regulars in the different department used to call out my name when I appeared, just like Norm on Cheers! I felt so special! hahaha!

I know today is the last day - but this information was in an article in today's Chattanooga Times Free Press. I'll summarize....

Wal-Mart is opening its 5th supercenter in this county. The store will employ about 400 workers, with 65% being full-time. About 1200 people applied for the jobs. The average wage for full-time employees in Tennessee is about $10.18. (my note - the cost of living in TN is fairly low, and we have no income tax). There is a 6th supercenter under construction in the county, and a 7th is planned.

Just thought this was some interesting information, since it's right on topic for us.

Walmart is putting many artisans out of business and we have no pride in craftmanship when its all made in another country on machines, for the most part.<

Does anyone here shop at those international shops, can't remember the name but will go google for it.

They handle things that are only handmade in different countries. Darn, what is the name??? They also are a non-profit company and the money goes to the artisan or craftsman who made what you bought. Fantastic stuff and not real pricey. They are located on big malls where they will be seen.

We have Trade Aid stores here. Is that what you are meaning? Handmade goods by foreign countries - mostly third world especially Africa.

Carolyn

Ann is it Pier I? Could be Cost Plus?

Kathy

Maybe World Market? Sue

Ann, there is an organization called SERV, I think is the name, that works to get fair market prices for handmade products from other countries. I saw their catalogs at church a few years back, but I don't believe they are limited to churches.

I will continue to shop at Target - which interestingly enough we didn't mention, and at my local shops as much as i can, and not at Walmart. I do shop at Costco and Ikea. SERV is one of the non-profit international craft shops that i like, two of the churches in town have their items, expecially jewerly and pottery.....jean

Many thanks to you for leading this discussion I have read some of the posts and think you all did a good job. I apologize for not posting but the holidays put a lot of pressure on me ( I know it does to most if not all) some years I seem to be okay with it but this year I felt so overwhelmed I had to stay off the computer as much as possible. Again my appreciation to you ...YOU DID GOOD ! always , anna

Ann, thanks a bunch for this discussion. It was a good one, and made us all think.

how do we go about knowing when a new Curious Mind is starting? Do we stay subscribed or unsubscribe and just hope we see a notice somewhere?

Since I am supposed to be in charge of organizing CM which is so easy all I have to do is ask and these wonderful people say ME ..the CM programs run from the 16 of the month until the end or until everyone is sort of said what they want to say The next one is already set up and if you will check the Books and Literature list of activities you will see it listed close to the time it starts

By the way whoever leads the CM discussion gets to choose what they would like to discuss but I believe suggestions from those who post would be very welcome...usually it is mentioned in book bytes as well...Glad you like it ,.,.it is a good discussion for those who dont have the time to read a book for discussion ..The people who lead these are to be congratulated for doing this ..thanks to them and to all who come and give thier thoughts on the subjects introduced.. anna

howzat -- I would be glad to send you SeniorNet's Book Bytes which lists the discussions. It is sent out twice a month. I'll send you a sample and if you like it reply so I can add your name to my email list.

Barbara will be leading the next Curious Minds which will open in mid-month. The topic is The Family Portrait.

"Tell us your story of taking the Family Portrait... Show us your Family Portraits... Tell us how you display or preserve your Family Portraits... " -- Barbara

So you're saying that this discussion (Big Box Stores) is closed and when a new discussion starts it will be with post #1 and a person would have to subscribe to the new Curious Minds?

Howzat -- The new topic will be right here in this discussion. The heading will be changed to include the new information.

Check in mid-month.

As long as you're subscribed to this discussion, it'll come back up when there is a new posting and you "check subscriptions".

Thanks. That's what I've been doing wrong. I've been unsubscribing when a current Curious Minds is over.

Good morning everyone - Well do you have a family photo?

After seeing Louis Gates on PBS trace the history of families and after seeing the photo in the heading taken of one of our Seniornet families I realize my own family has let something important go by.

OH, I have lots of photos taken during various visits but no formal family photo with all of us - we usually get together every summer for a few days down on the coast - I must be sure to arrange a photo with all of us - I wonder if there is a Sears nearby - maybe in Corpus - and then we could have a professional photo taken.

Growing up the sister that is close to me in age and I would have a professional photo taken when we made our First Holy Communion and later again when we were Confirmed but I do not think my younger brother and sister had any professional photos taken - we do have lots of candid shots that are in my album and many more are piled in boxes.

After reading the links above I am encouraged to finally tackle those boxes and I even have an idea of writing a small story of what was going on when the photo was taken - here I have photos of my mother and grandmother with what must be some of their friends and I have no idea who they are or what was going on in their lives when the the photo was taken. What ever it was it was important enough to save the photo and pass them on to me.

What really strikes me looking at family pictures is how much we all look like each other - we have photos of four generations and easy to see the likeness -

Well we are all anxious to hear your story of how you keep your family photos, the story of what it is like to get the entire family together for that all important family photo and most of all where you display your photos.

With that I could go on and on about how my daughter-in-law has photos of the 3 boys all over her house but I will save it for another post...

Let's hear it for the family photo - professional or candid...

Oh yes, if you would like to share your family photo please read the instructions that tell you how to reduce the bites to meet the standard required on Seniornet - if you need help let us know and when Pat is free she can assist us... Pat is a wonder at this you know...

A toast --
Love to the Family
amore alla famiglia
amor a la familia
amour à la famille
Liebe zur Familie
liefde aan de familie

This sounds like fun, Barbara - we're leaving town this afternoon, to return on Monday, but I'll be checking in when we get back.

I posted our last (partial) family picture on Pictures Then & Now last year - it was taken at Xmas 2004. I'll have to see if I can find it and send it again. The last time I called for a "command attendance" to have pictures taken by a photographer, they were awful, and I never ordered any of them.

John's sister and BIL took their family to Hawaii for their 50th wedding anniversary. They had a professional family picture taken on the beach, and it is really great!

See ya on Monday.

It was something we neglectd until I realized I WAS getting OLD and if we didnt do it we would never have one so in January we were all able to get together for dinner and a delayed gift exchange and then went to a nearby Sears Portrait studio They were so helpful and the pictures are on a monitor so if you dont like the pose they take more until everyone is pleased . we had so many small children and of course they get antsy but eventually we had several to choose from.

Mine are in frames and in fact I bought 10 8x10's for the family and 2 other 8x10's unframed and Sears was having a special so it was a reasonable 58 dollars and then I purchased cheap but attractive frames and gave everyone their picture One thing someone asked did I write the names on the back behind each person so years from now family members will know who was who ...They are hanging in the hallway with other family pictures of my grandchildren...NOW we are all represented.

My one daughter in law has her family portraits and thier immediate family portraits lining the wall along the stairs to the second floor and is also making scrapbooks . I have boxes of pictures and need to do SOMETHING with them I wish I had been better organized when I was younger.

I have boxes of family portraits from my mother and my husbands family but unorganized and again I NEED TO DO SOMETHING WITH THEM I think when you are younger you dont see the importance of keeping family portraits in some sort of order but I do now and you know it will be a monumental task! SO if anyone is delaying and want these for your future families WE NEED TO GET WITH IT ..

Barbara I think this will be a neat discussion and an inspiration to all thanks anna

I have a difficult time with formal family portraits. The last time we had one done was about 11 years ago, at our first son's wedding. I wasn't grossly overweight and it seemed a good time to take a photo. My thought was that we would continue to take family photos on an intermittent basis.

Then our youngest son died. Then our middle son died.

I find I can't face the thought of a family portrait with two of the family gone. It may be that in years to come, if any of my remaining children decide to make me a grandmother, we might consider it again, but at the moment, it's nothing that I would can bring myself to think about, and which, for now, doesn't seem to be too terribly important to my children either.

I've always been a passionate photographer and have chronicled our family life in minute detail ever since we married. I kept scrapbooks up until David died, then it all kind of went on hiatus for about 4 years until someone gave me a digital camera. Now all the photos are digital and are posted to the Internet, made into slide shows, put on CDs and passed around to the family.

You are keeping something of a family portrait and have done more than some of us I regret we didnt do this when my husband was alive And formal pictures used to cost SO much it always seemed money was needed somewhere else...My husbands family had a picture taken after the death of a family member but had a small photo of the family member who had died added to the family picture ..You may not want to do that and I can understand that to but it is an option I wish I had been better at taking just casual pictures but I think I have a box camera mind in a digital age . I am sorry about your loss and send you a hug and prayers .. GOD BLESS love ,anna

Thanks, Anna.

It's too bad, isn't it, that it takes a loss to make us realize what we should have been doing all those years? We had a family portrait when our middle son was a baby and then not again until Ned's wedding. I always thought there would be time "when I lost weight" and didn't look so bad. I'm sorry I missed all those years!

It's an interesting idea, getting the family together at a funeral, with the photo of the deceased included. Sometimes that's what it takes to get the family all together! The two in the back on the left are no longer with us. That leaves one daughter and two sons. Our daughter is now about to turn 40.

That's the photo of all the kids taken at the wedding. There is another which includes my husband and me, but I don't have that posted anywhere on line. The two in the back on the left are no longer with us. That leaves one daughter (about to turn 40) and two sons.

An additional thought here. This year I'm trying to make a huge push to get a lot of photos scanned and saved for the kids. I'm also going through my mother's photos and my grandparents' photos. The one thing that I'm really learning quickly is the value of identifying the people in the photos. Even if you think that "everybody knows that's Joe Blow," think about your grandchildren or great grandchildren coming upon grandma's photos and trying to figure out who that guy in the funny hat is and why it was important to take a photo of him.

write some sort of identification on the backs of your photos!

MaryZ a professional photo at the beach - how great - boy does that give me an idea - have a good trip and look forward to hearing from you next week.

AnnaFair I now - do something with all these photos is probably on most of our lists of "ToDo" - your post made me promise to take out those photos and get started - here I think there is all the time in the world and it will be a good rainy day project - WEElllll I am thinking it will be more than one rainy day project - it will be an excuse to finally learn how to scan a photo as well -

OK Anna two weeks - the challenge is on - do you want to take up the challenge and start in on your boxes as well?

To start me off we will have a rain tomorrow night that will last all day Saturday - in fact Cold and Rainy - if I clean off the dining room table today this is a "Do" on my "ToDo" -- hmmm never thought this was going to lead to my actually getting something done with my collection of photos. Now just look at what you started Anna

BevSykes Two children! Ouch - Bev that is exactly why I feel it is important to chronicle my other two children and their families - My eldest died days before Christmas and I remember a couple of weeks ago being stopped in my tracks when I was asked in a casual conversation 'how many children do you have' I couldn't answer - everyone looked at me - I did not want to turn the conversation into another uncomfortable wake for those around me but I was just stopped in my tracks. It was then that I realized I had two other Children and Grandchildren who one day would like to point to family members and what they looked like when they were young -

And overweight - sheesh I know that one - but even that I have decided for me that they know me now for what I am and just as my memory of my mother is a women overweight that would look strange to me to have a photo of her any other way I think this will be true of my grands.

I saw some cute photos on line of a mom and dad with their two grown children with their spouses - all done in non-traditional poses - I am thinking that not all families are close and it could be that tradition pose that makes us think of the Cleaver household is a difficult thing to look at when the family knows it is a big lie -

Huh just thought - in this day of computer technology Hehehe I can see it now - we take a photo of nature - the beach with waves or a field of grass or trees and then we have individual photos of all the family that we place in the nature photo - we may have to cut off legs or part of the body to make it look like they are standing waist high behind a wave or in the field but wouldn't it just be a hoot. Hay I could do that and even put a photo of my eldest son no longer with us in the picture - Oh boy - only a handful of posts and already I have some terrific ideas - thanks y'all...

AnnaFair Yes, I have seen that - so many of my Chinese friends have similar photos - I wondered about blowing up a life size photo and then thought nah too clownish - it is hard - I wonder if there is still something serious we attach to the "family" photo.

I am thinking maybe all those historical photos that in most instances were only one of a handful of photos folks ever had taken is still influencing us as to how a "portrait" of the family should look...

What do you think - should a professionally taken family photo look like a formal portrait of the family?

Oh I need to share - my daughter-in-law is something else - not only are here walls covered with photos of the three boys from the time they were infants but she decorates her house in this country look with all the little bird houses and plates etc. well she has all these unique metal stands that you can slide between a shape of wire or on a clip either a note or in her case photos - she must have 40 or 50 of these on various shelves - on the sinks - she has wooden shelves for decoration in the bathrooms and laundry also corner shelves just outside the kitchen with not only photos but she has these colorful Mary Engelbert postcard size pictures with motivational sayings - her whole bedroom wall is a sea of framed photos of the children with a piece of artwork sprinkled in - her house is bright and cheery with colors of white, yellow, pale blue, spring green and a red living room with a whole wall of white book cases and cabinets built in - I have such a lift when I enter her house and with all these photos you feel buried in a lap of love.

Bev, I can't imagine such a loss - my heart goes out to you.

But I totally agree about identifying people in photos with names AND dates. We have some pictures of our daughters #2 and #4, taken when they were the same age (about 3-4). They look so much alike, and wore the same hand-me-downs, so unless there's something else in the photo to date them, there's no way to tell which one it is. We've gotten lots of laughs over that over the years.

Should a professionally-taken picture be "formal"? Not necessarily. In the one of John's sister's family, they were sitting on rocks, standing or sitting on the sand; they were barefoot, and they all had on white shirts. That's not terribly "formal" - at least not in the traditional sense.

Bev you must have been posting as I was because I missed your two posts - that is a great photo of the children as adults - what program and software are you using to scan your photos - are they online or in a document that is specific to your computer?

A professional protrait with bare feet I love it - I love it Mary - Mary do you have any of your photos on line or on your personal computer?

Barbara, I think I probably do, but I'm not at my home computer right now (back home on Monday). There is an old photo of me on our photo web site.

http://gallery.crel-media.com/zelle/

And there's a picture that Bunnie isolated on my profile page here from the family picture I sent in back in early 2005.

I don't know how many we'll have at our family week at the beach this year (late June), but maybe we can arrange a family photo shoot then. We have one son-in-law who never comes to the beach, and another who seldom comes. And nowadays, grandchildren are iffy because of jobs, school, etc.

I like the idea of a professional "casual" portrait as well. I guess when I used the term "formal" portrait, I meant anything taken by a professional photographer. One of my sons and his wife have several professional portraits, in very casual style.

The photo I posted is on my own web site. I just have a cheap scanner which works quite well for posting to the Internet.

My only daughter died at 18 from a brain tumor that was quite unexpected. She died on the day the rest of her class graduated from high school and the day before my youngest sister's birthday.

Both of my parents died in the mid nineties after living with me and then in nursing homes.

My two sisters felt since, "I no longer had a family and they did, that I should assume primary care." That lasted until they were dying and suddenly both sisters felt they needed to be in on everything. They ended up with the majority of my parent s's belongings as by then I was just too darn tired and frustrated to care anymore.

Both my sisters are now divorced and I have no idea where my nieces and nephew are. My youngest sister also had another son after her divorce that was adopted out.

I had taken many, many photos, (and framed them); up until my daughter's death. Now I face the fact that no one will want them after I'm gone. I no longer keep in touch with either sister and have no idea of where the two nephews and nieces are.

Even though my story is fairly common these days, I hate to just toss the photos. I expect some enterprising soul might even sell them to estate dealers as I have seen done.

I find your stories bitter sweet and would like to commend those of you who still have families and close ones at that. As I get older, this matters more and more and I wish these photos were going to someone who might appreciate a family that has slowly eroded. Its an empty feeling to know that no one will be left to know or care of the good times we once had.

angelface555 - How sad for you - if nothing else your story teaches us all to be in the moment - our future is never secure is it and when it does not unroll as we imagined it is difficult to carve out a new life that is filled with the meaning we know how to relate to.

I have some of what you are experiencing in a small way in comparison - The women of my family have been the glue and where most of the family stories are centered. I also have so many "things" that were passed down to me like my Grandmother's Blue Willow and her special table cloth - on and on - well there are no girls - all my grands are boys - my sister only had boys - my other sister became a nun - there is something strange about passing dinner ware and cut glass bowls etc on to boys - and then in this world where divorce is as likely as not the continuation of families is also not secure.

From your story I can see the most valuable thing I can do is preserve my family photos for myself rather than doing all this work for grands who may not value the photographic history. of their family - or they may have some tragedy - or for heavens sake something awful like their home could be flooded or experience fire or a tornado and so there really is not guarantee of permanence is there.

Well we can give up and keep our photos in a box unlabeled or we can do something to make them meaningful - we can have fun writing short stories about what was happening when the photo was taken - we can cut them up and make an artful montage as a family portrait - lots of things we can do but how to fix the hole in our hearts is not explained in these magazines that show us how to care for our family photos.

Reading one of the links in the heading I was struck by the idea of photographing the vehicle or the houses - I am remembering years ago there was more made of photographing family members seated in or standing near the family car - but wouldn't that have been fun - my sister was only asking last year to help her fill in her memory of all the vehicles my father owned.

Another that I wish I followed my instinct as I saw the new gas stations replacing some of the old ones that were built back in the 1920s and 30s I thought I should take some photos before they are all gone - I may have missed my chance.

I think that is something that I still cannot grasp - that my kids do not have the same pictures in their heads of family nor the experiences that are in my head - it is like we have lived in separate nations - where I see regular large family gathers and huge parties with barrels of beer and family musicians their childhood was different with only annual trips in the summer to visit grandparents, aunts and uncles and so where photos of all these relations will be an interesting bit of history for them I doubt they will feel any nostalgia since they really have no personal memories to visit.

I just found this and it is not that costly - amazing - you send them a photo and they make an oil portrait by copying the photo - Portrait

Stay warm today - I have to get out in this - so far our sky is looking ominous but we are expecting freezing rain before the day is over - after yesterday at 83 this is quite a switch in temperature...

RE:Post 313

Hi Barbara,

I remember my family taking so many photos in front of a car. My high school graduation photo is taken in front of my father's Ford. An Easter photo with my nephews was taken in front of someone elses car. The car might have belonged to a stranger. For some reason, it seemed important to go outside and get a photo standing beside a car. Maybe standing in front of a car meant you had arrived at some form of prosperity. That's just a guess. I don't know why standing in front of a vehicle was so important.

I love your positive take on everything. Life means different things to each of us and who is there to say that one of your grandchildren will want to KNOW something about the relatives in the past. My one daughter in law is a lovely person , good in a hundred ways but she doesnt care for the things I have accumalted and loved HOWEVER thier oldest child a girl of 12 is fascinated by them and has a few I gave her and she LOVES them you can see it in the way she displays them in her room SO dont lose hope that what has meaning to you will someday have meaning to others..And my one son treasures the photos and mementos from the past .. He displays them and tells others about them. Some of the things I have loved I have given to people I know that love the same things,. These are not relatives by blood but relatives by "heart ties" and I have sold some things to strangers who have collected similiar items and love them..I dont feel bad because some of my family have different tastes. My tastes were different from my own mothers . To her many of the things I loved she thought of as "dust collectors" which they certainly are ! But they have been important to me as the pictures from the past have .. so Barbara I think you are right we should do these first for ourselves I can see as my children grow older and have all passed the 40 year old mark they too began to treasure some of the things from thier past ...Perhaps we need to keep them just in case somewhere down the line a child or grandchild or a great grandchild will look at them and say GEE I love to look at these pictures of my family from the past. for me I just look at the pictures I have and remember when and hold them to my heart. anna

Yes Anna - true how we never know - Angelface555 I think is facing something that is difficult for us to imagine - she is the end of the line of her family - I think it is a celebration for her every day that she gets up and does something that matters - it would be so easy to say there is no one to care - hopefully Angelface555 has some friends and Anna then your ideas would be so perfect for her to pass along her family photos to some young friend -

Young friends do not befriend us - most often we must meet them and with so many programs in schools these days that include just showing up and listening to children read or, going down to the Boys and Girls club and offering to teach cooking or your favorite hobby, the schools and clubs are thrilled and there is nothing like being around a bunch of kids for a shot in the arm - after some time passes sure enough if there isn't one or two who you chat with more often and then you ask their parents if you can take them to a movie and so it goes you end up with a friend who is 60 years younger then you are and who has some school report that must be done about history that you have lived and then out comes the pictures and so it goes...

Help me out here wasn't there a grandparent program at one time - where kids without grandparents can be hooked up... was this something I read that was a local idea that received national attention or is it a national organization like Girl Scouts or something that we just do not hear that much about any longer?

Making a young friend is not what we imagined but it would feel good - in fact, Anna your idea of giving things to friends is such a good idea I must do more to follow up with some of the younger women I have befriended over the years - thanks for that boost - yes, it makes sense.

It is so cold today - of course nothing like what y'all are experiencing up north I am sure - but here is is after 1: in the afternoon and it is only 36 degrees - two days ago it was 83 - I bet we loose lots of plants that were put out thinking our winter was over.

The deer just left the backyard so I need to get out there and put some water in the old wash tubs I have for them - they have learned to sleep up near the house now so that wind does not whip down on them - I seldom feed them any longer however, after I noticed them drinking the drain water from the AC hose I started to be sure the bird baths were full and then I started to put out these tubs of water which are closer to the ground making it easy for even the fawns to drink their water.

On this presidents day there is a challange - Who is the mystery Seniornet lady pictured with her family in our heading? She has been a volunteer with Books and Literature for many years.

Great guess but no it isn't Ginger...

Thanks for thinking of me any way

Nope - not our Ginny the younger - keep guessing - and you will be amazed at who this lovely lady is -

Ginger, you're welcome.

Is it Annafair? Holding the baby? Sue

I think She's got it... HURRAH I think She's Got IT
Yes, Sue named the volunteer in the photos
Annafair, Moderator of our Poetry discussion - coordinator of Curious Minds and PBS monthly discussions
Congratulations Sue!

Oh, I should have thought of AnnaFair. She is a very stunning lady and a very kind looking lady too.

hats I dont think anyone ever considered me a stunning looking lady > Thanks for the compliment since I am only 5' I have always thought of myself as sort of cute ...but inside I have always felt 5'7" blonde willowy and 22! Of course I had deep auburn hair when I was young but was determined when my hair turned to grey I would go blonde LOL it just turned drab and finally it turned to sort of an iron grey and I decided to have it highlighted and become a sort of blonde...

I have to laugh that someone thought it was Ginger ,who is a neat person and I met in DC a few years ago ..Besides being short like me although I think she is the taller, we found out we cant sing LOL but when no one else was around we did ..sing that is ..awful but when you cant carry a tune it is simply wonderful to find someone who sings in your key >>OFF I do hope some of you will put together your pictures and if you havent had one taken of the family to consider it ..In any case even if you think no one will ever care I can assure you someone down the line will They might wonder who it is but faces and clothes that are different cause people to think I wonder who this was and look at those clothes , hairstyle, place it was taken....and remember when some people have lost their homes to fire, flood or wind it isnt the things we think that are valuable ( jewelery, furniture, etc ) but the pictures ...love you all ,anna

AnnaFair, no wonder I like you. I am only 4'll". Cute is a word I have heard all of my life along with half-pint.

I would LOVE to meet you in person It is rare I can look down to someone or even eye to eye ...! I remember years and years ago we were at a cocktail party at the Officers Club and it was CROWDED and no one noticed me they were all so tall and I was weaving in and out of the crowd and no one said hello ..and I understood because I was at least a foot shorter than any there ..but as I am sort of weaving my way through this CROWD a woman from our squadron ( also married to a tall man) came through and we could SEE EYE TO EYE WE just hugged each other and laughed . we felt like the only short persons there... Even my grandchildren at 9 and 10 are taller than me and I have to LOOK UP TO THEM do you get a crick in your neck looking UP all the time??? My husband was 6'2" and everytime I hugged him all I got to hug was shirt buttons and a belt buckle!!! I knew I liked you from your posts but NOW I love you ...from one short person to another ..HUGS..anna

Hehehe Anna a real lilliputian at heart with dreams of willowy youth hahaha - what would you trade, dreams of willowy youth or that family you are surrounded by...And Hats, another lilliputian in appearance - the stories you could both tell must be a book full...

My youngest is our lilliputian - never grew more than 5'9" and for a guy that is shorter than your average but then Sally Gale is just 4'9" and it looks like Chris the eldest is not going to quite reach his father's height, Cody may just pass him and it is Cooper who looks like he will be the giant of the family more in keeping with my own experience where at 5'6"1/2 I was the runt since all but my grandmother were 6' or better including my sister, aunts, even uncles, all by marriage.

I have a photo of them from a Christmas a couple of years ago - hoping this week I can get Ray over here to show me how to upload the photo - for now I must run - young man wants to write an offer on a house and so I need to get cracking - till later...

We did have a great time in DC for sure. I remember our singing

Has anyone started on their box of photos yet? I did get as far as pulling them all out - you think you have so much time and then the phone rings and before you know it the day is gone - finally the sun is out today and that makes me feel more cheery so hopefully I will get more done than usual.

Tried to get my young man over here to help me with the photos I have stored on this computer but it may be early next week before he has time -

This weekend my grandson Cody is competing in a Gymnastic meet held each year in Austin - he has been competing at all the meets that start right after the holidays and continue till the end of March - he is expecting to make State again and hopes to make national as he did last year - I am excited about seeing him perform and of course his mom and dad, my son will be here - need to get the house ready and air out the bedding - thank goodness the sun is out to make that easier - Family -

Meeting an old friend for coffee this morning and running late - for me I see friends more often than family so that I have to wonder what is my family - ah so -

Good to see you here Ginger - do you still have a red hat in your closet?

I excel in procrastination ..but I do know where all the boxes holding my photos are ! I have a sinus infection and am going to use that as an excuse today ..My eyes hurt and my sleep is impossible so I cant possibly look through those photos today! anna

Anna read something this winter that there really is no such thing as procrastination - that we do what grabs and holds our interest and the things we put off do not hold out for us the same hope of enjoyment - also I learned and found to be true that we enjoy what we do well and what we do regularly is like all things that improve with practice, we do those things well and therefore, we feel secure as well as self-fulfilled when we have completed those activities we regularly practice.

I remember years ago, after I finally had a system down for cleaning my house is when I really enjoyed the feeling of satisfaction of cleaning a house. I could get the daily tasks competed by 10:30 in the morning and that success was enough to get me to take pride in the larger tasks that took more time -

Today there are so many things and people pulling at me that are not self initiated and I quietly get angry so that I end up punishing myself by not doing things that are further down on my 'todo' list but rather, I watch TV, or take a nap, or bury myself in daydreaming or reading. I guess as the old saying goes - I am my own worst enemy... Ah so...

However in my book a sinus infection is no fun and certainly is a reason to sleep and sleep as much as possible till the infection clears up and the pain subsides. Don't forget to drink a lot... as if you were flushing away the infection with each glass of water, or hot tea or juice. Hope you start to feel batter very soon.

Red for sure have had it for a long time.

For various reasons it appears that gathering the family photos is at times painful and therefore a mixed reaction to this activity - Living for today and tomorrow is an option we like and really anyone who does gather and become custodian of the family photos is the historian for the family - some of us like history and some of us sat through history waiting for the bell to ring -

Well our bell has rung and out next Curious Minds will be open for discussion mid month - As soon as the topic is determined we will be making an announcement here... Thanks to those of you who shared...

Thanks so much, Barbara - this was fun. Sorry I didn't get to participate more. We've been out of town for several days - still are, in fact. Our motel has WiFi, but we're going to basketball games all day, so I don't have time to check in. And I'm too tired to do much when we get back at night.

Again, thanks for the discussion.

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines,
journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.

Games

Remember Hopscotch, Kick the Can, Red Light Green light, Hide and Seek, to name a few games we played when we were children.

Then later, Checkers, Chinese Checkers, Monopoly, Dominos and other board games as we grew older.

In our teen years Spin the Bottle, Post Office, Pick up games of Softball and Football.

Finally, as adults, Canasta, Bridge, Pinochle, Hearts, Chess, Mah Jong, Yahtzee, Poker, Bingo, Charades and many others. Got any favorites that I have not mentioned?

Games helped us learn to socialize, taught life lessons about inter-actions with others, and what some, or one, would do to win.

Today we have on-line games that are nteresting and a god send for those who are house bound. Still, those on-line games are cold in a way as they leave out the company of others sitting in a room with you talking and sharing while playing whatever game.

Links:
Grandmatrix Games Articles
Keep a Sharp Mind with Games

Join us!

Discussion Leader: Tiger Tom

Welcome,

To the games discussion. What games do you like, dislike or don't know the rules?

Do you like games that you can play with a partner like Bridge or do you like to play on your own?

Tell all.

Tiger Tom

Hi, Tom,

I do like some games. I learned to play bridge after I retired and play almost weekly with a small group of women who took lessons (free at the local "bank club") at the same time I did. We're not cut-throat, scream if the partner makes an error type. There are a lot of those bridge players in this area, if you want that sort of thing.

I also enjoy computer games and belong to Pogo so I can play there without the commercials. I esp. like the Canasta, Gin, Spades there as well as the various solitaire games, mah jong, etc.

As a child we never played card games at home, so all of this is sort of new to me.

I also like the old time board games...Sorry/ Monopoly and dominoes.

jane

I love games. Unfortunately, I live in a family that doesn't like them (husband and adult kids). But I grew up in a house where we played card games and Monopoly all the time. My father hated games of all kinds, but my mother is a card shark who wouldn't let little kids win, so I had a real competitive spirit from the getgo. I still like to play canasta when I get together with my mother and my cousin. My cousin and I used to play week-long canasta tournaments. My cousin, her husband and my mother are constantly finding new card games to play, which I love when I geet together with them.

The game I used to play with my kids when they were little was Husker-du, a Swedish (I think) game which, I believe, is a matching game. Try as I might I never could defeat my kids who were great at it.

John and I play bridge. We played a lot when we were younger, then didn't play for a number of years because of a lack of places to play. About a year ago, we decided to find a place to play, and have been playing twice a month. It's a great game! That's the only card game I play, other than various types of solitaire (on the computer and with cards). John plays it on the computer, too. John plays gin rummy and hearts with the grandkids.

We play a two-handed domino game, especially when we're traveling. Sometimes, we each play a domino game on the computer. There are zillions of domino game variations, I understand. We'd like to learn the one called Mexican Train sometime, but have never come across anybody who knew how to play to teach us.

I work three on-line jigsaw puzzle and some mind-stretching & word type puzzles from AARP every day. There's a matching-type game on the computer that's played with mah-jong tiles that I like to play, but I never had the opportunity to play the real Mah-Jong game. That's always been one that I thought I'd like to learn to play.

I love games. I was raised in upstate NY where the blizzards and cold hung around for a very long time, forcing us inside. So-- I've been playing games since I was a kid. Each and everyone of them mentioned above, I have enjoyed played for years. My all time favorite was Backgammon and now play it online as I lost my Backgammon buddy when we moved. This year, I learned Mah-jongg and am addicted, as I have a tendancy to do when I like a game.
As a matter of fact I am hostessing 3 tables of dedicated Mah-jongg players tonight, at my house. We play every Thursday evening.
As a kid, my favorite game was "Sorry" and "Parchessi." I hated Monopoly probably because my brother used to get so upset he would then "upset" the set. To this day I do not play Monopoly even when the grands "bug" me to partake.
I loved Chinese Checkers but not regular checkers. Wierd! I loved Clue and still to this day enjoy putting the pieces of a mystery together.
I enjoy card games galore; my favorite being hearts. It sure does sound as if I've spent a great of time playing doesn't it? Such fun!

Do you a URL for the Mah-jongg site? That sounds fun. It's not as if I don't spend enough time trying to master the expert Minesweeper.

when I was in college we usd to have to register each semester and there were long lines of students waiting outside down the hil and all along the street from the night before. We played bridge in line while we waited. We didn't play well.

at other times at the beach we'd play between classes that were widely separated in time, bidding TWO of a suit and getting sunburned on one side

Even later some of us played as a way of getting together socially. It kept us in touch. AND THEN THEY CHANGED THE BIddING RULES . . .AGAIN.

Duplicate bridge was in. My husband like it I didn't so he went to the local park where there was a group doing it.

Tennis is a game but I never felt like playing it that way. . to win. . I liked the activity. just running around and hitting the ball as soon as I got ahead I'd relax and almost never won.

I liked team vollyball, again for the activity only I think I don't like competition.

I play chess the way my father taught me when I was a kid. . .a good opening while others are fumbling around gave me an advantage, but never developed an END game. . .just not the killer. . .all those board games were fun when I was a kid. . .no longer. IN fact I liked word games anagrams and scrabble, but am too lazy now. I guess I don't like games for the competetive aspects of them. . . .Claire

What a great topic, Tiger Tom. I love games and come from a long line of game players. Now just about everyone in my family likes to play games, except my son-in-law, but even he will succomb to Pictionary every once in a while.

Alf and Mary Z -- I've never played mah-jong, and have only seen pictures of it, never the real thing. It sounds complicated.

Bridge is my all-time favorite. I belong to three bridge clubs, a marathon group, and a foursome. Only problem comes when we get schedules changed and end up with feast or famine. Every game in one week and then nothing. Although I don't have much chance to play it now, I love duplicate bridge, where each hand stands on its own and you can compare and see how others have played the same hand.

And now Sudoku has entered the picture. Talk about an addictive game. But isn't it fun?

Tom, I just reread your heading. That first line brought back memories of a book I just loved as a kid -- Let's Play OUtdoors -- a thin little volume that had pictures and rules for just about any outdoor game you could mention like Hopscotch, Red Rover, and Mother, May I. I must have spent hours reading about those games throughout my childhood, as well as playing many. I wonder whatever happened to that book.

Mah Jong,

I have played one game of Mah Jong and won. Of course, my opponents were kind ad let me win. I have a set but for some reason have never played it again.Tiger Tom

Also have a Chinese Chess set. Still trying to understand the rules and how the game is played.

Alf, this is one site - there are lots of them

http://www.shockwave.com/sw/content/mahjong

We have a Hoyle Board Games 5 disk of various games that we installed. It includes a MahJong solitaire, dominoes, backgammon, etc., etc.

I'm like Claire - I enjoy playing some games and enjoy winning. But winning isn't necessary for enjoyment.

I didn't think about sports-type games. I was never active in physical sports. As a spectator, the only sport that interests me is women's basketball.

Word games - scrabble is a good one, and we used to enjoy Probe. We used to play a game we called the Dictionary Game - no formal equipment. One person just picked a word out of the dictionary and everybody else made up fanciful definitions for it and the "it" person used the real definition. Then folks had to guess which was real. My mother ALWAYS won!

One game our family enjoys when we get together is Jenga - the one with the tower of sticks that keeps getting taller until it falls over.

We played duplicate bridge a couple of times years and years ago. We sort of liked the idea - with each hand standing on its own - but the people we encountered who played were so unpleasant (yelling at partners, etc.) that we never went back. We love to play, and play to do as well as possible, but it's a GAME, and not something to be ugly about.

Boy do I have memoires of games. When I was young Polio was a scourge and my mother made my two younger brothers and I stay indoors between noon and 3pm she would put quilts on the floor in the living room and we could so anything we wanted as long as it wasnt strenous We played card games a lot then and also in winter months when it was too cold or too dark to be outdoors I dont recall all of the card games we played but we used regular packs of cards. I know we played old maid, hearts, spades, and something where we ended up tossing the cards into the center but cant recall what it was, Gin rummy as we aged and some were just fun games One my group of young adults played often and once until 3am called I Doubt It .. Just remembering how much we laughed when we played that game.

My parents belonged to a group that played pinochle and later my husband and I learned how to play bridge but gave it up Some of you said you did to and for the same reason . the couples who argued,. accused each other of doing something stupid and even tossing all the cards up in the air or down to the floor sort of spoiled it for us AND when we were lucky enough to win ( which wasnt too often ) the sullen attitude of those who lost because they knew WE DIDNT CARE if we won or lost It was a game and if it wasnt fun we didnt want to play ,.

I loved all the activity games from my childhood, We had badminton set in our backyard and friends who had basements usually had table tennis. croquet and horse shoes were some of the other games we played ..Oh I have to stop but will return because my mind is overflowing with the memories of all the games we played > LOVED THEM ALL anna

Mary Z, I agree with you there, that bridge (or any game) is just a game, not something to get angry about. Some groups I play with are more just for sociability than skill. In my foursome we still play just for fun, but are a little more serious about it and talk about why we make certain plays or bids.

Has anyone played "SET?" It's a card game with three shapes, three colors, three patterns and three numbers. The idea is to make sets (of three cards) or non-sets that are sets . My grandchildren taught it to me when the youngest was about 4 and was a whiz at it. This competitive Nana would stay up late at night and practice it, but they always beat me. Later I ordered a SET to have here at home, but I can't find anyone who wants to play it with me.

pedln, we're like y'all - we play somewhat seriously, and talk about the hands, but never get angry. And we do play, not just sit at the table, hold cards, and talk.

I just remembered another game that we like to play when we have four players - Rummi Kub (we pronounce it "rummy cube"). It's a rummy-type game, played with colored/numbered tiles substituting for a double-deck of cards, plus there are two wild cards (tiles). It's a good one to play with tweens and teens. We even played it with our hosts in New Zealand when we had a home stay during an Elderhostel several years ago.

Spite and Malice,

That was a game my Daughter loved to play when she was young.

Tiger Tom

I've never heard of that game, Tiger Tom. How is it played?

Also on the computer, I play a couple of games from Popcap - Book Worm and Chuzzle. I just play the free on-lines games, not any download.

A couple of years ago my husband and I spent time playing Chinese Checkers and Monopoly and Scrabble. My husband taught the boys to play Chess which I have never understood. I do like the knight and the castle. I can just slip up and down with the castle. I think the knight makes the "L" shape. My queen is always taken.

Growing up my favorite game was Candyland. Monopoly drove me nuts! It seemed to last forever.

Now I love Bingo. There is a greater chance that I will win playing Bingo. I love to hear the numbers called out.

As far as computer games, I fell in love with PacMan. I drove the family completely nuts! I also loved Mario. After those two games, the computer world became too hard for my little brain.

See, out of sight out of mind. We moved and I've not found any pinochle players so far. Bill and I used to play with frineds once a week- double deck. I've forgotten how much I enjoyed those times.

Thanks Mary Z I saved that site for later perusal. My husband blew his right knee out yesterday and I'll be spending more time at home, it appears.

My sister and I use to play Five Hundred, another card game. I have forgotten how to play it. I sure loved playing it.

Oh, Alf, I'm so sorry to hear about your husband's knee. Is he going to have to have surgery?

Alf, excuse me for being impolite. Will he need surgery? Sorry to hear about that knee.

Hats- You are never impolite. The primary care doc ordered an xray, which in my opinion is BS but anyway he had that done. The xray was negative naturally as that only shows dislocations and fractures. His problem is the meniscus (cartiledge I think )so I asked for an MRI. Now this is just the primary care doc. I got that scrip and he's scheduled for it on Tuesday AM for the MRI. The biggest problem is that he can't get in to see the ortho PA until late April and the orthopedic surgeon in May. Bill told him he has a lot planned this year and the guy said, "what's the difference, you're retired aren't you?" grrr

How's that for the games people play?

That's ridiculous, Alf. I used to work for orthopedic surgeons, and we always had to find room for a patient when a primary care doc called and said there was a major (or even a minor) problem. There's absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be able to get somebody to get him in to see an orthopedic after the MRI is done - assuming that they find a cartilage tear. I'd be steamed, too, if that happened to me.

- they will be hearing from me (loudly) if the MRI shows a tear. They don't call me Nurse Ratchett for nothing.

Alf, YOU GO, GIRL!!!!

One ight not too ong ago my knee did the following" every five seconds or so it would click or jab me and it hurt.....I couldn't walk on it because it was so sore. i took painkillers...no luck. I compared to the other knee and probed to see how they were different. it was swollen so I tried an ice pack . . .no luck, but poking around I did feel a differnce and very gently nudged , . .It was still sore but quit jabbbing me. I took a couple of nsaids and by morning it was fine,a bit tender but definitely on the mend.

my chiropractor says he has a knee like that and what I must have done was push a small loose piece of cartilege back where it belonged or at least away from the nerves. It hasn't bothered me since. Claire

Games,

Was in Target and passed by the Games section. Saw a lot of familiar games and a whole raft of new games.

Tiger Tom

Here is a link to numerous on line games

http://content.uclick.com/games.html

TT, did you buy anything new? or old? What did you find that interested you?

I keep thinking of the birthday parties I attended as a young child No boys were ever invited so we played games I feel sure were played only by girls.

Drop the Handkerchief, Go in and Out the Window , London Bridge is falling down, I feel there must be others but that is all I can think of.

Later when boys were invited for a get together we played Spin the Bottle and Post Office, And one I cant recall what it was called but everyone stood in a circle ( were there two teams?) and started with one person with an orange held beneath the chin against the neck , Shoulder? and the next person had to use their chin and shoulder to capture it and so on until the end was reached .. I feel it must have been a relay race of some sort And then there were the sack races which were relay races ...

Tom this subject has really stirred up my mind ,...did anyone play any of those games???anna

MaryZ,

Didn't buy anything as have no room for anything new. Besides, we don't play the games we have already.

Tiger Tom

I just wondered if you were tempted by anything new that you saw.

mostly at group gatherings and school. . .you had a big fammily and a home made group . . .

OK We did CHINESE CHECKERS, MONOPOLY, CHECKERS, PICTURE PUZZLES left out for a long time, games are seductive. . you could spend a life time at them. GO FISH the dumbest card game in the world the favorite of a friend of mine. she always chose it when we played games as families. . . GAMES . . .In fact although I've enjoyed them I think they waste my time which is getting meager. I'd rather read, or make art or talk to you guys here on line. . . .Claire

And i've played almost all of those mentioned by others, except chess. I too like games to be fun and relaxing and chess seemed to be a game i would have to "work" at. On snowy nights my father brother and i would go to my sister's house and play monopoly or five hundred. That wasn't 500 rummy, but a game similar to whist that my Dad called five hundred.

Hats - you mentioned playing 500 w/ your sister, was it the rummy game or the one i have described? I've never talked to anyone outside of the Cumberland Valley who played this game.

My sister taught me canasta, which was the game of choice of her high school friends in the 40's and early 50's. My siblings are 8, 11 and 15 yrs older than i, so i was learning many of these things at an early age. Pinochle was the game of choice in college. We too played double-deck and had all sorts of interesting rules - like pass two cards to your partner. My husband played whist, but after about 5 yrs of trying to play w/ him in games that were extremely cut-throat, I stopped playing cards w/ him w/ other people!! We can play rummy together and we play scrabble - just the two of us, but he gets nuts when we are playing w/ others, because i'm not serious enough about the GAME - it IS a game to me.

One of my favorite board games as a kid was chinese checkers and we had a board about 3 ft square that had pockets in it like a pool table and we used small sticks to try to shoot small round rings into strategic spots on the board, i've forgotten the name, i'm sure one of you will know it.

This is fun, remembering ......kick the can in the twilight of summer dusk, much fun........ does roller skating - on the sidewalk, or in a rink - count? My oldest sister lived on a farm and at family gatherings we always played softball and pitched horseshoes......thanks Tiger Tom for encouraging us to remember....jean

Jean -- that's it --"had pockets in it like a pool table and we used small sticks to try to shoot small round rings into strategic spots on the board, i've forgotten the name,"

I was just going to ask if anyone remembered playing Carems, and there you had it. Only we used our fingers to shoot those little round donuts. I remember getting the game for my children, but they didn't seem to take to it as much as their mother.

This past Christmas my 9-year-old grandson wanted a game called "Settlers of Catann," so I ordered it for him online (his mother told me where) -- never saw it in the stores. Complicated, with a multi-session learning curve, but absolutely fascinating and a lot of fun. We were all in Seattle and played a lot of it over the holidays. It's a board game where you buy houses, build roads, villages and cities, and draw cards that mess you up. Although in no way physically similar it reminded me of the computerized economic education games we had in the library that would invariably pop up with the message, "and then came the rats."

jean, we've lived in Nashville and Chattanooga for 40 years, but I don't think I'm familiar with the 500 game you mention. Of course, I didn't grow up in TN. What area did you live in?

The 3' square board game you mention with the rings sounds like one we called Carom. We used our fingers,too. Haven't thought of that one in a long time.

I guess my family sometimes goes in for strange games, but there are a couple that the whole family enjoyed when the kids were young. Does anyone remember . . . . . .
A card game called Castle ? All I remember is that it was fun, and that you kind of stacked the cards in piles.

The other game may have been called "Triangle", small triangular shaped pieces, each with three numbers -- one per triangle side. You tried to get rid of your triangles by laying them next to other triangles, but you had to match with the same number or with a number divisible by 5. I would love to find that game again.

pedln, I was just reading this discussion and your description of "triangles" reminded me of something. We have an old game called "Contack" which consists of triangular pieces with numbers on each side. We found it in a trunk we purchased at an auction, and two triangles are missing so we haven't ever played it, but haven't thrown it away, either. I keep thinking it's something we may find at a garage sale or 2nd hand store. It's a Parker game, and on the instruction book is the sentence: "Questions regarding "Contack" will be answered gladly if a three-cent stamped envelope is enclosed." So I'm guessing that Parker probably wouldn't have replacement pieces for this game.

yes, we used our fingers also to shoot the rings.

Mary, i grew up in Shippensburg, Pa, near Chambersburg, up where the Cumberland Valley starts, or maybe it's not part of your Cumberland Valley, but i think it is, going down thru Maryland, briefly and W VA and into Tenneessee.........jean

Got it, jean - the Cumberland River comes into TN from KY, loops through Nashville, then goes north back into KY, and empties into the Ohio just above Paducah, KY. In Chattanooga, we live near the TN river, so it's called the Tennessee Valley.

nlhome, you got it. CONTACK. That's it. I've googled it and it's available on eBay and with other dealers, with prices ranging from $4 to $40. Will have to investigate further. It's always hard to come up with something "new" when I visit the grandkids, but I think they'd like this one. Thanks. You've made my day.

Here is a link to an online place to put together jigsaws I have never signed on for the daily email telling me there is a new puzzle but just use the link in my favorites ...there are hundreds of puzzles in different forms I like to click on a picture at the top and it shows the different forms the puzzle can be played Some are very short and others take longer Depending on how much time I have I decide which way I will try them Some look very difficult to begin with but I have found once you see how they work they are not really difficult My favorite forms are the Jigzone , USA, Bulbs and gosh I cant think what the other one is but I have tried them all. Do try it if you like jigsaw puzzles I usually do them late at night when I cant sleep..anna

http://www.jigzone.com

Annafair, we subscribe to the daily puzzle through jigzone. John works them in whatever "cut" they come. I usually change them to the 80-piece-classic cut.

The other two jigsaw puzzles I work are:

http://daily.webshots.com/html/sw_jigsaw.html which changes every day. You have to click on Play Game.

http://www.uclick.com/client/mma/uj/ is the one from the AARP Games. It changes daily, but you have access to the previous two months (I think). At AARP games, there are lots of other games to play.

I loaded the Hoyle card games onto my computer a loooong time ago.. whenever my #1 grandson comes he loves to play poker. I usually play cribbage(I have the board also for non-computer play) gin rummy, hearts and memory match.(I often win too) Also spider solitaire which is loaded on the computer. As a youngster we played chess, monopoly and dominoes. I've played a version of dominoes called tri-ominoes. The big deal when my kids or grandkids are around is Scrabble..often they're on the phone to old buddies who come over and we have a great game.I've actually won a game or two. There is even a version of scrabble on my Palm pilot, as well as solitaire..those are much harder to beat the computer. I also play some of the games on yahoo...bookworm, jewel quest etc. A lot of the old singing games don't seem to be played any more, Colkot

We play a game called Eucher even in turnaments that used to take mom to and have kept it up some what.

Remember kick the can and many that have been mention.

My folks played a lot of poker mom was good dad was a loser, I am to much like dad and lose also

so put my money to other things.

I Spy,

I can remember playing "I Spy" during Lunch or dinner. Object had to be on the Table. I vaguely remember a game that had "Animal, Mineral, or Fish" in it. Anyone remember that one?

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, I do remember --"I Spy, with my little eye . . . ." and the spy would usually say "something blue (or red or some other color), usually towards the end of the meal. I'm like you about the animal, etc. etc. -- vague.

My mother and aunt liked to tease us with "My aunt Tilly is silly -- because she likes boots but she doesn't like shoes," or "she loves doors, but hates windows." And then we would try --"she likes skirts, but doesn't like pants" and they would say "No, you don't know aunt Tilly." Do you know aunt Tilly? "She likes green, but she doesn't like purple."

My mother loved words and word games. We would play "Hinky Pinky". You think up two rhyming words, i.e., "grass glass". You give the clue, which might be "a drinking vessel made out of lawn cuttings". The other person then has to guess the rhyming phrase. Obviously, the phrase doesn't have to make a great deal of sense.

My small grandchildren still play "I spy" on car journeys just as their parents did. For very small children it helps them with their alphabet.

Carolyn

Everyone sat in a circle and did a clapping rythmn and the leader picked a category "cars," "states," "animals" etc. and then each person around the cirle either had to say a name in the category alphabetically or a word starting w/ the last letter of the previous word. I always liked those kinds of games.....jean

We always played "geography places" on car trips. Someone would start with "America" Then the next person would say something like Albany, and the next person would have to name place beginning with "Y" like YOungstown, then an "n" place and so on.

And what about "I packed my trunk" and I took apples, then the next person would say "I packed my trunk" and I took apples and a bandana, then a, b, and my camera, etc. Sure made the miles go by a lot quicker. I guess now they take laptops with DVDs. It makes y ou wonder if these games will die out.

I still try to entertain the grans with car games as you describe.

We played so many games when I was growing up but Euchre remains my favorite! I was always told it was a Midwestern game. I just learned to play 500 in the past few years but do enjoy it a lot.

We played "Scatter"(like Kick the Can) every night until dark in the summer. Our parents knew where we were. And, "Statue", remember that? My kids played Kickball in the summer evenings.

Since we were such hockey fans, many of the neighborhood kids would play in the train station parking lot using old hockey sticks(donated by the hockey players who lived in our neighborhood) and a tennis ball. Lots of energy required!

My husband still plays the meanest game of Monopoly that I have ever seen. He wins all the time! Except when he plays with the grans. Then its a teaching session. Its all in the planning!

Remember carrying around your Authors card deck and playing that? Now my grans are carrying around "Yugio" card games.

Hop Scotch was always fun and helped pass the warm summer afternoons. When we went to the swimming club, we spent much time playing ShuffleBoard while waiting for our lunches to digest.

As we grew older, we liked Hearts and Canasta but still Euchre was our favorite. Pinocle, Bridge, poker were all learned later.

We have "I SPY" on the computer now. But its more fun when you have to use your eyes and ears.

My kids liked Mille Bourne and other card games on lazy summer afternoons. And, Tripoli! Egad, remember that? We played with poker chips instead of money. 'Twas fun!

Oh, Ann. What a lot of memories. Statue -- when did our bones tell us to stop playing that. I think Euchre must belong to a small region of the US. I had never heard of it while growing up in Wisconsin, but I went to college in Oxford,Ohio, and it was very popular and it was very popular there. Now I don't know anyone who plays it here in SE MO.

I love to play Mille Bourne. My Seattle daughter said she played it all through college and then found a set at a garage sale. You never see it in the stores. It's so mean-spirited, but so much fun.

When are we going to get together for books and games again?

still love to play Spades and Hearts, but even more so have a grand time playing Taboo, Pictionary, a music game called Encore where you have to sing a lyric of the words on a card picked from the stack. In the summer at the cook-outs they play hop-scotch w/ the little ones.

When we traveled w/ them as small children, finding license plates of all the states became a game......jean

In our paper yesterday was an article with the headline "Table games teach kids valuable lessons". I'll do a few exerpts here.

"Video games are easy targets for educators, psychologists and social scientists. The are too often too violent, too addictive and too solitary. But they're not without their benefits. They facilitate development of strategic thinking, quick decision-making and hand-eye coordination, as well as long attention spans and concentration. All desirable.

"There is just as much to be said for old-fashioned, no-tech games such as Candy Land, Chutes and Ladders, checkers, dominos, Sorry, Yahtzee, Clue, Risk, Life, Monopoly and Scrabble.

"The primary benefit of playing traditional board games is that they require actual human interaction. Players must talk to one another...

"...traditional board games aid the development of important social skills in children, including cooperation, self-control, confidence, independent thinking and decision-making, curiosity, empathy, communication, teamwork, vocabulary development and patients. "

The article goes on to say that kids will call them "bored games" and resist playing. "But be prepared for them to enjoy themselves more and sooner than they'll admit?

"...for younger children, board games teach skills that are especially important in school. These include:

"The ability to participate peacefully and effectively in a group.

"The ability to identify and work toward a goal.

"Patience with those with lesser abilities.

"Patience with and acceptance of disappointments and setbacks.

"Understanding of the importance of rules and structure in group activities.

"Understanding of playing fairly and the consequences of cheating.

"...one of the most important life skills that traditional board and table games promote is the ability to deal with winning and losing graciously. This skill comes in handy when your 9-year-old beats the socks off you in Candy Land."

What fun remembering all the games we have played. The first board game I remember was "Uncle Wiggly".

During my high school years we played "Chalk the Corner". I guess you could call it hide and seek but using the entire small town in which we lived to hide. We divided into two groups. One group ran off to hide marking the sidewalk with an arrow when we made a turn. When we were ready to hide we drew a circle with arrows going every which way and then had to hide within a certain number of feet from there. This game was always played in the evenings after it had turned dark. It certainly would not be safe to play this game in this day and age!

Carlyn, I remember Uncle Wiggly, both the game and the books. I've never heard of "Chalk the Corner." Sounds like fun.

Where are you in SE Wisconsin -- Waterford? Guess it would have to be west of Racine, where I grew up. Someone from SeniorNet is from Waterford.

Hi Pedln! I remember meeting you in Champaign, IL a few years ago. I live in Hales Corners (Milwaukee County).

Games,

Remember Paper, Rock, Sissors (sp)? or one, generally played at the table during a meal, Where one person whispered a sentence in the ear of the one sitting next to him/her and that person passed it on and so forth until the sentence got to the last person who then said it aloud. Object was to get the sentence all the way around the table in it's original wording.

Tiger Tom

Yes, Carlyn, I remember now -- you were with your sister at that luncheon. You're not too far north of the Racine/Milwaukee County Line. Pat West was at that luncheon too.

Tom, that word passing game was real popular at birthday parties.

Doesnt' anyone know my aunt Tillie? She's silly because the likes beef, but won't eat pork; she wears mittens, but not gloves.

Of games our family played. Pictionary Yahtsee , Pit, Trivial Pursuit and almost all mentioned above . Pick up Sticks ...I have tried to prohibit my grandchildren from using small hand held games when they arrive They all have computers so I refuse to allow them to play on mine ..having had them mess things up in the past In the den I have a basket of things with plastic scissors that cut with curves and zigzags , Lots of paper , tracing paper , crayons,.pencils, old Christmas cards, stickers etc note pads etc and encourage them to use these ...lots of books for individual use ..and decks of cards. Of course they are allowed to play the games on the shelf ..I am pleased when they draw pictures or write letters . of course my favorite letters are the ones they write for me and leave for me to find..funny in my youngest daughters house they do play board games sometimes She recalls I know from her past I hoping that now they are preteen or into their teens they will start to be more social and begin to enjoy these games with thier friends...I love remembering these games and love being reminded of some I had forgotten..anna

Anna, your decks of cards -- makes me think of WAR -- I can't believe how we liked that game so much, and the little grands do to. Now it bores me to tears and it goes on forever. We always had to have at least two decks to play.

A few weeks ago a bought Hoyle's book fo games. We had one years ago, but it either wore out or was eaten by mice. But I needed to know about poker. We played at Christmas time and all my kids and grands knew just what they were doing, but not me. I want to have at least one good game under my belt. And maybe someday I won't need the paper that tells if a full house is before or after a straight. Lots of poker games with good explanations in Hoyles.

I used to love to play bridge.....then I moved to Wisconsin, and everybody played Sheepshead (Schafkopf). All of our children and Grands play but I just can't get into that game.

What a great site. I came upon it by chance. It really should get more publicity!

I played all the N.Y. street games like Statues, Kick the Can, Capture the Flag, Hide and Go Seek and our all time favorite "Colors". All the kids would stand on one side of the street and one in the middle , who had been chosen by"one potato, two potatoes....", would yell out a color. If you were wearing that color you sauntered across . If not you had to run and try not to be caught. Once you were caught you were part of the group in the middle of the street catching others.

Of course there were card games later on. War, Rummy, Rummy 500, and Casino. All great games to help little kids learn Math while having fun.

Today I still love card games and board games (Scrabble, Chinese Checkers, Uno) and a game called QUIDDLER which is a huge success on all our Elder Hostel trips.It is a Card/Word game that moves really fast and is lots of fun.

There is an Internet Scrabble Club which gives helpful lists for players: http://www.isc.ro/lists/tw1982.html

Judy

Judy, I played Colors too, but we called it Colours(smile). I remember hours of Pick Up Sticks, now they have "glow in the dark" sticks. I hadn't thought of these games for donkey's years. At school we played L-O-N-D-O-N, one person standing out in front with their back to the rest, has to say the letters, then the word, and then whip round to catch anyone moving. At the finish the last person is level with the caller, and becomes the new caller. Remember Red Rover, and Brandy(eventually banned by the teachers).

At boardind school we played Dare by spinning a bottle or a knife. I dare you to sneak down to the kitchen and grab something. I dare you to go to the Senior's Dormitory, this was a big no-no!

My last 2 boys played street cricket, with the Wheelie Bin as the wicket. If a car comes along the players retire to the kerb. Our old Dog was a great fielder, but he left slobber on the ball! I've slowed down many a time for a cricket game in Suburbia.

Jan

Party Games,

Musical Chairs. I usually played Musical Chairs at Birthday parties along with Pin the Tail on the Donkey.

I wasn't much on team games. Had to depend on others too much.

Tiger Tom

Pin the tail on the donkey LOL Tom we go baaaaaaaaaack too far Although I have to say I played both games as an adult and in my 40's We had a lot of social activities with various organizations we belonged to and some of them would have a KID"S Party as a social event and then we would play some of the games we had played as a child .>I have never heard of any of my children having a similiar type of party ..perhaps the really fun parties are no more/..anna

Jan, you've introduced many new games, but I do remember Red Rover. Brandy? Hmmmm.

LOved the birthday party games, and don't forget "Drop the Clothespins in the Bottle." I wonder how that one would be played now. And what about Scavenger Hunts? It seems the older we got, the rowdier they got. Sending kids off to knock on doors is probably a no-no now.

Hi all,

I have just been widening my horizons here at SN and looking at other groups besides books. Every so often I do have to remind myselef that yes, Cathie, life has other interesting things besides books. LOL

This group plays games? or do you just talk about games?

I play a lot of online Scrabble and just love it. I thought I was playing Scrabble all those years, but until I started playing online, I realized I wasn't really playing Scrabble. Anyone else here play?

Scootz, what's the site where you play on-line Scrabble? Do you play a solitaire type or play with other "real" players?

Welcome to SeniorNet! Folks around here have a huge variety of interests...it's amazing.

Mary, I play other real people. I forget the address, but I'll post it tomorrow or later today. Thanks for your welcome.

This particular discussion (Curious Minds) changes topic each month. For the last two weeks of the month one of the Books Discussion Leaders leads a discussion on an interesting topic. One topic just follows the next. In this discussion alone you will find:

Patriot Act December

Walmart and other Big Box Stores January

Family Photos February

If you look at the Curious Minds Archives, you will see older discussions and some of the topics there. [I found where the topics begin by doing a search in this discussion on the word "thanks." Just before the new topic there is usually thanks for the old one.]

When the current discussion ends, the title of this discussion changes to "wait for the next ..." or "xxx topic starts xxx."

Thanks Marjorie!

That Scrabble site is www.isc.ro, btw. if anyone gets there, I'd be happy to play you anytime.

Anyone out there?

Or are you all playing games?

What is a game? Baseball is a "Game" but it mostly a professional Sport played by highly paid players. Same for Football, Tennis, Volleyball and others. So, are they still games?

Chess which is played professionaly doesn't pay very well and is not popular here in the U.S. as a professional "Sport" as it is in Eastern Europe. As a result it is still considered a Game.

I guess there a lot of games that are trying to go professional but are struggling.

Poker, to my way of thinking was never a game. Whenever money is on the table it is no game.

Tiger Tom

Cheating,

Cheating is prevelent in games. There are those who just cannot stnd to lose so they cheat to win even in snall non important games. Some are very creative in their cheating. I have known some who show no shame when exposed for cheating. Frankly, it takes away from a game if one has to be on the lookout for cheating.

Money games I expect cheating from someone but that doesn't make it any more appetizing

Tiger Tom

Well mostly you need someone to play games with.....I do jigsaws puzzles on line and other games that can be played by one. Although I am going to try Scootz scrabble site.. unless I wished to play bridge which I dont ..it can be and is a good game but not when people care so much about winning they become obnoxious and rude...so I avoid that game and of course my hearing loss makes playing games where one needs to hear or be heard ...I think if I said every time someone made a bid Oh my would you mind repeating that???I would not be invited again...

Years ago when my husband was still in service and we were stationed near a base we would invite foreign students over for Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners. One year we had 4 students from Africa although the country eludes me at this time..There were in thier early 20's and very nice to our children who loved to have these students join us. asking them dozens of questions and then at Christmas showing them the gifts and especially the games When these young men from Afica were with us Santa had brought a game called Mousetrap .It is a fun game that needed assembling each time you wanted to play ( which was why it eventually ended in the trash) and the young men and our young sons had a great time playing this game. It was like they couldnt believe the contraption etc and for awhile acted as young as our young....

My husbands aunt, a retired school teacher came each Christmas and stayed until Easter umtil it was not so cold .where she lived,..and she played all sorts of games with our children and with me ..but if we were all busy she would set out the cards and play all four hands of bridge or canasta and have one imaginary player for scrabble We always laughed when we had time to watch because the opposing players ( being herself you know ) would cheat...

I have always been astounded at those who would cheat ...if caught their excuse was it was only a game. But to be honest I could never be comfortable with them and eventually we just didnt see them anymore Cheating ruined the game .. we didnt mind losing to someone who played better or were more skilled that was fun but cheating took away something and I cant even explain it but playing the games fairly was fun . cheating took away the enjoyment.

Being an only girl in a family of 5 boys I often played solitary games and still do I love crossword puzzles and any written word games I especially enjoy cryptograms and think I must have an odd mind to see the pattern so easily One thing I have never been good at are the Logic puzzles .. I guess that means I am not logical which makes sense because I'm not ...:-)anna

Anna, I'm like you with the cryptograms and double crostics. I somehow see the patterns easily. John says I'm weird...well, there's probably more than a little truth in that.

IMHO, someone who would cheat at a game will cheat in any and all other aspects of life, and would be suspect in my book.

When our girls were learning to play games, the first thing we always did was read the rules, and then play by the rules. It drove some of their friends nuts when the friends would play by "family rules", and ours insisted on playing "by the book."

Annafair,

I like Logic puzzles very much.

I have noticed one thing: If I play a game horizontaly (Like Chess or take five) I am good at it but if I have to look at it vertically (like computer chess or take five played vertically) I am lousy at it. May be the way my brain processes incoming stimuli

Tiger Tom

I was recently intoduced to the game sudoku. It is like a crossword puzzle with numbers. If you want to see what it looks like you can click here and try it. It is very addicting.

TIGER TOM: I have noticed with sudoku that I see groups of numbers best in a block rather than 9 horizontally or vertically. Sometimes the game solves best horizontally or vertically however.

We just returned from an Elder Hostel called "Behind The Scenes at Las Vegas". They took us to a school that trains Dealers and what do dealers learn first? HOW TO CHEAT!

So we learned all the Casino games that I have never played and how people (and dealers too)cheat. The group of 40 Seniors had lots of fun. Happily, I wasn't the only one who had never played Craps or Poker (3 ways to play) and on and on. Still didn't tempt me to do any betting but I can see the lure of it and the smarts it takes to win by betting correctly.

There is a game based on cheating . It's called Liar's Dominos. You use the black side of the domino and say what you have put down. The next person puts his piece down and so on. If you challenge the other person he turns it over. If he has cheated and called out a fake number than what is on his domino, he picks up all the pieces that are out. If he was lying you pick up all the pieces. Has anyone played this game? (You know the person is lying if he calls out a number you have in your hand or one you already put out)

Judy

Judy, we used to play a game called Liar's Dice - similar to the one you mentioned. We had a cup and 5 dice marked with card symbols (A - 9). It's an old bar game - if you lost you had to buy the round of drinks. We played it with friends (not that much drinking going on).

Ach, Marjorie, no fair

I went, I stayed, I spent too much time, I'm already too bloomin addicted to Sudoku.

or have you already done that and i missed it?......jean

Is anyone else addicted to Shanghai? I am. It's a game matching Mah Johng tiles. Watch out - it is addictive. isak

Jean, follow Marjorie's link in Post 422. You'll be sorry!!!

Shanghai...me too, play every day almost.

isak - I've never heard it called Shanghai, but I do the matching game with Mah Jongg tiles, too.

My kids and Grandkids that don't do crosswords do Sudoko. We all got Sudoko books as presents for the last Holiday Season. When we were in Londom it seemed a National Craze . Every store sold the books and people did them in buses , cafes,airport etc.

However I don't feel its a game for me since its missing the element of chance. I prefer word games to math logic. How do others feel about the element of chance in a game ? And do any of you do the "Daily Jumble" in your newspapers?

Judy

JUDY: At one time I did lots of logic puzzles. Is that what you mean by word games? I have always liked numbers and I guess that why sudoku has be hooked for now. What do you mean by the "element of chance"?

JEAN: Suduko is a 9 by 9 grid. You have to put the numbers 1 to 9 horizontally, vertically and in each 3 by 3 box. My link is the best way to visualize this.

I have a couple of books of sudoku puzzles and one of them has puzzles that also have to be 1 to 9 in a diagonal cross through the puzzle. There were also a couple that were 16 by 16. I enjoyed both. Of course I go as far as I can and then check the answer to see which numbers I got correct and put them in ink. Then I erase and start again. Since I am playing for myself, I can make my own rules.

I have tried suduko but it is the word games that have always attracted me..Tom I wish you lived near I have several all logic magazines but just gave up trying to do them As a little girl I fell in love with words ...and so word games are what still attract me..I want to see the words. While I loved math, alegebra etc when I was growing up and still add ,subtract etc without a machine words are magic to me..and thus anything that is based on knowing obscure words are what I love,. They challenge me but I think it is more than that ..I have a hunger for words and all the possible definitions and of course those definitions have changed or been added to over the years so trying to figure out a crossword puzzle or some other word game intrigues me ...I do the ones in my newspaper, print out ones from on line, and have dozens of crossword puzzle books that also have the cryptograms, code words, and other word games. I carry them with me when I travel and cant go to sleep at night until I do one ..I dont always complete one as they sort of lull me to sleep ..I read constantly which is also like a game ..and usually have 3 or four books I read at the same time. Plus writing stories and poems.. language is the challenge to me..I have always carried a small notebook and pen with me when I have had to wait anywhere ..and if I have nothing else to occupy my mind I choose a word any word that comes to mind and then try to write down all the possible words within that word. Which is why scrabble always appealed to me.

Before this discussion ends I want to thank you Tom for a wonderful discussion ..For me this has been one of the best. So many memories have been stirred from my past, it has been delightful to go back and recall the fun and joy of all the games I have participated in since I was just a little girl And the people from my past that played those games with me.If I can find a milk bottle I am going to buy some old fashioned clothes pins and introduce my grandchildren to that game or at least a bottle we can drop them in,They are still young and will try Nana's suggestions. But if I dont do it soon they will think I am really strange and I am sure there are places where I can buy some of those old games ..and since they gather here at my home I will get the whole family to do them What is the point in being a Nana if you cant have fun too???

Every poster has added something to this discussion ...so I thank you each ... since one of my responsibilities here is to see who is willing to lead a discussion and we can always use new ideas please email me if you have suggestions for future CURIOUS MINDS Thanks Tom You did good! ...anna

Scrabble!! Its the best and I have found that my daughter, grandson, and friends in Ithaca, NY play all the time. So I will get some games going with them next time I am up there.

Another favorite is Dominoes. There are many different ways to play that game but I only know of two or three.

Judy, I do the Daily Jumble and the Cryptograms. I also keep a book of double crostics by my chair, and work those frequently. I don't do the "logic" puzzles. One of our daughters would get a puzzle book and work what she called the "orphan puzzles". These were the ones that weren't crosswords, that nobody else worked - the logic ones, number ones, jumbles, cryptograms, etc. We've always loved that term.

Thanks, Tom - this has been a great discussion.

Dominoes Oh yes my husband and I used to play dominoes and when our children were young we played as well, I think long after this discussion has been archived my mind will be remembering other games not mentioned. Did anyone mention Twister? the fun game played on a plastic mat? I have family coming in May and with everyone here a cookout will be perfect ( if nice) but if not the sunroom and den can be used to play some of the old fashioned games...i am going to check and see if anyone has twister if not Nana will buy it. We used to have a toy store here that specialized in older games and toys...it closed some time ago when more involved games became the THING ..I think even spin the bottle would be fun since I have so many grandchildren I laugh just thinking of how they would react to THAT game. having a great memory day ! anna

Games,

No reason discussion cannot be extended into next month is there?

Anyone ever played "Blind Mans Buff (bluff?) Clue, Charades? and other parlor games. Name that tune? I guess that if one were to read some books from late 1800's to the 1900's they would come across parlor games played way back when.

Ouija Board would that count as a game?

Tiger Tom

The next Curious Mind discussion wont be until May We are having a spring break and if everyone and ESPECIALLY you Tom want to continue to discuss games then LET'S GO FOR IT ...I know I would like to continue as I keep remembering games CHARADES was a huge favorite with us when we were young marrieds and even into our late 30's and early 40's I am not sure why we stopped but most likely were Girl Scout Leaders , Sunday School teachers and volunteers as our children grew up and were involved with other activities and ouija board was a definitely a game.although that seems to be from the time I was in my late teens and early 20's before marriage

twenty questions was a great game too and when went we to the shore every year for a two week family vacation a BIG garbage bag contained all of our favorite games ie clue, monopoly etc ..and the first thing the coffee table was cleared to set up a jigsaw puzzle everyone worked on until time to pack up ..in fact we carried several jigsaw puzzles since it didnt take long for 20 people to solve one...Our children were allowed to invite friends ....so we always had a large group ....anna

How about Trivial Pursuit? Has anyone mentioned that?

Here's a trivia question regarding games- Name one piece for a Monopoly game?

My answer- thimble

The IRON!

Ironic that I always chose the Iron, because I never, ever iron in real life. There was also a shoe and a scotty dog.

Annafair,

Okay, we go on as long as you people want.

Trivial Pursuit. I was good at the original set but the later 80's and others I wasn't as I lived outside the U.S. for 30 years.

We used to keep a Jigsaw Puzzle on a table and whenever someone would walk by they would put in a piece if they could find one that fit.

Tiger Tom

We continue for a bit..Everyone seems to be having a great time..I know I am ..anna

Does anyone remember the game Dig. You had a little mallot sort of thing with a sticky side on it and you picked up letters with it to spell words. We used to play that all the time.

I would love to continue. I too keep remembering more games. How about pencil and paper games? Tic, Tac Toe of course but also Boxes and Battle Ship which was a craze in 7th grade. We played secretly at school as the teacher droned on. Today Battleships comes with real ships and even electronics but the making of the grid was fun for us in those far away days.

Marjorie, You asked what is the element of chance? Well in numberpuzzles like Sudoko or Logic puzzles there is only one correctnumber or letter (as in codes). In say, Scrabble the possibilities for the next word are endless. The choices in Charades or Monoply are not endless but a lot of possibilities go thru your mind . This is an interesting question and let me know if I answered it to your satisfaction. Anyone else want to define chance?

Judy

JUDY: I think you answered my question. By your definition I would put crossword and jigsaw puzzles with sudoku. I like to know that I am "correct" it seems. Also, by your definition, I would put bridge as a game of chance. I played it a lot when I was a young woman but haven't played in so many years I won't even attempt it now.

My father liked to play chess and I played some with him. It never became a game I played elsewhere however. My son, on the other hand, loves chess and spent a lot of time playing chess, even entering tournaments.

Marjorie, if you think you'd like to try bridge again, and there's someplace nearby to play, don't hesitate to try it again. John and I hadn't played in probably 25 years or more. We decided last year that we'd like to start up. We thought we probably should take a series of lessons to refresh, and found most things coming back quickly. We wound up being sort of unofficial helpers to the "real" instructor in helping beginners. We play twice a month now, and would play more if we had the opportunity.

Marjorie, I'll echo Marz Z -- lots will come back to you. If you mention to one of your bridge-playing friends that'd you like to try it again, she might help you gather up a foursome of like-minded folks and work with you informally.

That's what a friend of mine did. There were some y oung women from her church who wanted to learn, so she worked with them. I'm now playing in a foursome with some of them and it's great, because we know everyone is trying to improve, so we ask a lot of questions and discuss a lot of plays.

More Games,

Anyone remember Button, Button, who's got the Button? Tag, Ring Toss, Horse shoes, Parchessi, Field Hockey, Raquet Ball, Badmitton.

We used to play a game in school called Soccum. I guess it is called "Dodge Ball" now

Tiger Tom

I'm sitting here wondering why bridge (and some other games) are quietly decreasing (dying out). Is it because there's so much competition from other entertainment sources --TV, spectator sports, more discretionary income? Did the game playing increase in the Depression? Playing games is such an economical (and fun) entertainment. And you investment usually lasts for a long time.

pedln, I don't know the answer to your basic question - although that's surely a possibility. I know that I resisted playing bridge as a teenager/college student (because my mother and sister told me I HAD to play). But after we married, we were so poor, and it was free entertainment for us and our friends. We'd just put all the kids to sleep at one house or another, and then play bridge all evening.

With a five month old grandson I am trying to recall all the baby games I played with my children and my older grandchilren. I visited him last Sunday, He is such a joy, smiling and recognizes conversation directed at him with a happy smile. Of course I played the toe game You know This little pig went to market....and laughed because his mother when she was grown and married would sometime hold out her foot and say Mom would you do this Little Piggy? She said it reminded her of when she was young . I havent tried Patty Cake yet but there were other games I cant recall ...anyone remember them???anna

Here's one that the New World has changed to suit its circumstances.

"Up and down the City Road In and out the Eagle That's the way the money goes Pop goes the weasel!"

The City road is in the east end of London. The "Eagle" is a pub. The next line is self explanatory "Pop" means to pawn ( the sign of the 3 brass balls meant a pawnbroker's establishment, very common in the old days) A weasel is a very narrow nosed flat iron used for fine pressing..Often women worked at home as laundresses.

See what I mean....Colkot

Seems I missed the whole discussion; always thought Curious Minds was listed in Books Discussions, but found out otherwise now.

Anyone remember Tiddily Winks?

Hi Prancer,

Welcome to the discussion. Yes, I played Tiddly Winks when I was about seven. Got the game for Chrismas,

Tiger Tom

For baby, the game of the baby on your knee or ankle and 'here comes the city folks riding on the pony' was always a fun and giggly game for my grandson.

PRANCER: There is a link to Curious Minds on the Books Menu but Curious Minds originates in the Culture folder now.

"Ride a hobby horsie down to town, to get this girl (or boy) some candy!" That's what we used to recite.

Amazing to me that those words were still in the recesses of my mind--I am so proud I could pull them out!

Can't you just see those sweet baby faces?

Lenalu

Tiger Tom

Thank you for the welcome.This is a very good discussion and brings back tons of memories. I must read through so that I do not duplicate anything already covered. Thinking .....

Marjorie

Thank you, also, for the advice. I found Curious Minds from scrolling down through Discussion Index, which I should have done earlier.

I recalled a game I played whent the children were a bit older maybe two .. I would put them atop my knees and bounce them a bit and say the following This is the way the gentleman rides , the gentleman rides so early in the morning. with a rather proper and steady beat This is the way the lady rides so early in the morning with a rather gentle beat This is the way the children ride and I would sort of move them side to side in a very casual way Then the thing they all loved I would say Would you like to know how the cowboy rides and they would say yes And I would say you have to hold on tight and of course I held them tight and I would move my knees up and down rapidly and bounce them a bit and move them side to side as if they might fall off. ALl of my children and grandchildren loved that and it was very effective when they were being rowdy for when I finished I would say The horse is very tired so we need to be quiet for a while..and it worked ...I am not sure my knees can take that anymore.. Thanks for the suggestions I will be sure to remember when he gets a bit older..anna

That really jogged my memory--we sang that to a familiar tune which also went with words like, "This is the way we go to school, etc., wash our hands,etc.".

Thanks, SeniorNet, for the online games. There is a nice selection. I tried and enjoy the online Mah Jongg and the Checkers game.

Some games I enjoy online are slider puzzles, Scrabble, and word games.

Offline, I enjoy putting together jigsaw puzzles with friends or family members. It's a good time to talk and catch up. We all like Trivial Pursuit, Masterpiece, and Clue after a family dinner. Liar's Dice is a fun after dinner game.

Outdoors, I enjoy Shuffleboard, Table Tennis, Badmitten and miniature golf. I also enjoy a game of Bowling.

On the old INTELLIVISION, favorites were Space Invaders, Skiing, Monkey Kong and others.

When I was 6-8, I loved to play marbles with the neighborhood boys. Kick The Can, Red Rover, Statues, Hop Scotch, Double Dutch, Hide and Seek, and Pies were a big thing in my neighborhood. At birthday parties, we played memory games. In one, Mom would walk around to each of us and show us a tray with 10-12 items on it. After everyone had a look, she would put the tray out of site and we would have to write a list of as many items as we could remember. Another memory game: Mom would pass out a sheet of paper and pencil to each player. At the top of the paper she had written a long word. We were to make a list of as many words as we could using only the letters in her word.

My mom made a game of cleaning the house. There were five of us kids. Each would pick a room and the one who cleaned his chosen room the best won a prize. My mom was very inventive.

In my teens through forties, I loved volley ball and tennis.

Alf, this site leads you to free online games if you click on "Keep a Sharp Mind with Games" near the top of the page. On the bottom of the next page click on "Online Games". Mah Jongg is on the next page.

Happy gaming to all,

Linda

MaryZ

Re your post #345, where you mentioned Mexican Train. (double 12)

I have played that a lot, years ago, and I have the rules. If you would like, I can scan a copy and email to you.

Alternately, I think you can search Google for the rules. I do not have a link, but if you typed in "Cardinal Mexican Train", you may find a page there.

It is a lot of fun, because of the interaction between players. It can go on for hours!!

I would like to be handy enough to play, but I'm way up in Canada!!

Good luck.

Prancer, thanks. I wish you were close enough, too. We have written rules in our double-nine set of dominoes. But I think it always makes more sense if you play with somebody who knows how. Maybe this summer, when our family all gets together at the beach, we'll try it just from the rules.

Where are you in Canada? We haven't been up there in a couple of years, but always enjoy our visits to your lovely country.

Minature golf Our family played that often and once my youngest daughter had her son's birthday party at miniature golf course ...it was too hot that day and I stayed in the shade. It was a great family game to go the minature golf course on a summer even and we all went bowling together as well ..I dont think my children do that Will have to ask , the adults are into golf and swimming..I dont hear them say they are doing anything else although they do go horse back riding once in awhile....I think the fact that all of my daughters in law and daughters work makes a difference ...I was fortunate to be a stay at home mom since we moved so much as a military family employment was not always a possibility But I had the time and the energy to organize activities and I can see my family doesnt have that instead they rely on all the various places that offer parties. Which are so costly it boggles my mind...anna

I've never played miniature golf as a child or an adult. But, for your daily bit of trivia, did you know that miniature golf was invented here in Chattanooga in the 1920s?

MaryZ

Yes, if you have the rules for Mexican Train and find someone to play, that would be fun. I have to get my family together as well. BTW, wasn't there another Dominoe game called Muggins? Seems I recall that. Boy, do I need a refresher!!

I am originally from Nova Scotia, however, have moved all over Canada and ended up in Ontario, mainly because the grown children and grankids are here. We are located between Brantford and Cambridge; about half way.

Thanks you for the compliments about Canada. There are many nice places, even in winter, if you don't mind the cold.

Muggins (or something like that) is what we play. John's nephew taught us his game, and the rules for Muggins comes as close as anything we've found.

We haven't been in Quebec, Sasketchewan, or Nunivut, but have been in all the other provinces. We especially love Nova Scotia and Cape Breton Island. My niece and her family have a summer cottage near Inveress, CBI. And I have a cousin who lives on Lasqueti Island in BC. We've visited there a couple of times.

I play two kinds of Mah Jongg, neither of which is like the one you have here online. One is the Chinese style that produces winning hands somewhat similar to a card game. The other is American style that produces winning hands matching those on a printed card which changes every year.

I also play Hearts, RummiKub, Monopoly, Chess........

Anyone played Crokinole, Rummoli (board games). Also, just though of Blind Man's Bluff (I think it was called).

The memory bank is getting a work-out from this discussion!! Love it.

Who else played Marbles.? We played three different games. Hitting the opponents marble into a hole, trying to shoot the marble into the middle circle and knock out other peoples marbles and the third went as follows: take a shoe box and make three little doors in it and write zero above the largest, one above the middle door and three above the smallest door. Stand the box against a curb and let the other kids try and win the amount written above the little doors by shooting their marbles at the doors. The owner of the box invariabbly went home with a big smile and lots of new marbles.

At the age of eight I learned that the dealer always wins!

Judy

Judy Shernock

I played lots of Marbles. I think we called them "Allies"; don't know why. Remember winning someone's "cat's eye"? A prize! When we cleaned someone out, we called it "drooling them".

I used to drool all the boys !! haha

I have to laugh as our brains are getting a wonderful workout here ..few things are as challenging as trying to go back in time and recall the things we did and wonder where they went.

I remember marbles well and the box where I kept my "loot" I loved the big ones called "aggies" ? I wonder if my younger brothers remember since I always won. And the "guns" we used to make from a piece of board, and clothes pins and shoot rubber band cuts from old inner tubes Too bad they were replaced with real ones. anna

I didn't do marbles, but I did play a mean game of jacks. That was a major recess game on the sidewalk of the courtyard in my elementary school in Houston during WW2.

I loved marbles. My dad made me a steelie at work and nobody could beat me as long as I had that as my shooter. I liked to win the cat eyes, they were my favorites. I still have a leather bag full of them and some of the clay marbles too and of course my shooter. My dad and older brother taught me how to play. We had the best driveway of sand and stone and could make a great circle. I would still play today if I could find someone to play against. I've been teaching my grandson, but he's only two. LOL

Annie3

Ah Ha!...almost forgot about my steelie. Kids used to get mad when you break their marbles with those! haha

Where are you located?? I'd play marbles with you any time.

{smile}

A SENIOR TOURNAMENT Of Marbles

Oh, I was a sharpshooter with my Aggies and Cats eyes. Never saw a "Steelie". I'm up for a Senior marble tournament. Wouldn't that catch the Headlines of the local news?

Can you imagine the creaky joints getting down to shoot the marbles? What a hoot.

Judy

I grew up in England so some of my games may be different.

In my day we were big on rhymes & poetry. Marguerite de Angeli's Book of Nursery & Mother Goose Rhymes is a good source if anyone is interested.

Sudoku seems pointless to me...AND I used to be a hand bookkeeper!

We still love Scrabble in this house.

PS one of the games my brother & I used to play during WW2 blackouts was called "what comes next"..you either started poetry such as "the Walrus & the Carpenter" and the next one would continue, or as we were nuts about classical music and could sing, hum or whistle whole concerti or symphonies or even the Messiah...probably sound like obnoxious kids..but what else DO you do if it's dark and bombs are dropping about you? Ta ta for now Colkot

A Senior "Games Bash" ??

Would love to play marbles at a senior games bash. I'm in Green Bay. Funny you should mention 'what comes next' my sisters and I used to play that too. We shared a bedroom and played that as we were going to sleep, it was comforting. I imagine even more so in your situation colkot.

Colcot, you brought up a pastime I'd forgotten about. We didn't try to guess a song by singing or humming, but would tap out the rhythm -- some were pretty easy, like "Jingle Bells" or "Battle Hymn of the Republic" but we'd find there were lots of things you could name just by their rhythm. My mother was a primary teacher and I think that was one she got us on.

Envious well I guess I am to read what games you played as children...for me I was the 4th child, only girl sandwiched between 3 older brothers the youngest being 7 years older and the two younger brothers the one nearest in age to me being 3 years younger so most of my games were games boys would play.I loved music and bought a sort of magazine with lyrics of all the songs of those days and would sing them to myself , my brothers not being interested either because I was too young to sing with or they were too young to care, We did have a windup victrola and I alone I played that and learned a lot music and my mother sang around the house.

But I think the idea of senior games bash sounds ideal ...although I am laughing at the idea if I was down to play marbles which of you could help me UP? perhaps we could play on a table like a pool table? How about that for inventive thinking? Marble tournaments for seniors could be the NEXT big game for TV I bet we would outdo the poker games! anna

I've been thinking back on the games I played as a kid. Hide and seek was a favorite, as was "skipping" as we called it in Canada, known as jump rope here. I use to do both Double Dutch and Dolly Dutch. Wonder if anyone here knows what I'm talking about.

We also had a game in which you threw a rubber ball against a wall and went through a series of actions you did each time you threw it. Ordinary, moving, frontsies, backsies, one hand, the other hand, one foot, the other foot, etc etc. I even recall a game we played in which we had a ball inside a sock and stood against a wall and bounced the ball in sock between our legs, etc. I grew up in Canada and probably you all will think I'm wacky but we did have these games.

I played Rummoli (someone mentioned that one) though it is called Po-keno or some other name here . Loved Racko and Pit (corner on wheat!!!!) growing up as well. These last two are card games.

I also recall a game like jump rope that we played with huge long elastic bands, or lots of small rubber bacmnds strung together.

Dors anyone recall any of these?

Anna the lyrics magazine brings back memories. I used to spend my babysitting money on something called Hit Parade. I'd have problems too getting up after a rugged game of marbles, but it's fun to think about.

THAT IS THE NAME I WAS TRYING TO THINK OF Hit Parade thanks I was racking my brain...what is left of it ..what was that game with a ball you would bounce and sing One two o'leary and lift your leg to go over the ball >??? I can see myself doing that and something where we put a rock in our hand ( the leader) and put it behind the back and then show the hands crossed to a group and yuo had to guess which hand it was in? I can see the children from my nieghbor gathered on our front steps and playing that on a summer's eve. I can almost feel the warm air and smell the perfume from a bush my mother had near the steps.. Golly if for no other reason I am enjoying my memories..thanks anna

Twice I lost a message...wonder where it went?? Oh OH. Testing to see if this will post.

Scootz

I live in Canada; know everything you are talking about. I grew up on the East Coast of Canada, but have moved a lot....still in the country, though.

I just wrote a long post about a game (that I'm sure nobody has heard of) but lost the post by poking something wrong.

I'll get back and re-do it later. Wondered if you have heard of an outdoor game called "Kitty Cat"?

Where did you grow up?

Annafair,the game on the steps with the leader--I wonder if that was what we called playing school. Everyone started on the lowest step (first grade), then the Teacher (very bossy girl, usually, was the teacher); if each kid picked the hand with the rock,that one would pass to Second Grade and scoot up to the next step. If anyone picked the empty hand they would fail a grade and go down to the lower step. And that was FUN???--must have been, we played it a lot. My brothers would play marbles and let me play if none of their neighborhood boyfriends came over.

What I loved most of all was to rollerskate; this lasted as long as my one pair of skates survived or the sole of my shoe tore loose--remember those clamps on the skates?(We got one pair per year) I looked exactly as beautiful and graceful as Sonja Henie--I just knew this was true!

The only bought-game we ever had was Monopoly--Daddy got that when it first came out. We spent so many hours playing that. We never got over being proud of having the game and no matter how late the hour, the game was never over until all the pieces were organized and replaced in the box.

I surely am enjoying reading all the posts.

Prancer-

Nice to meeet you! I now live in Texas and am an American citizen. I grew up in Toronto and suburbs of same. My Mom and dad are still there and I visit yearly.

I've never heard of Kitty Kat. Anxious to read your post about the other game.

Rummoli is called Michigan Rummy here. Made a mistake in my last post.

Did anyone ever play a game which we called "School" (don't know if it's the real name for it) but you hid a stone in one hand, kids guessed which hand it was in to go up a step. The first one up and down the steps won. Prancer, do you know that one?

Well, now--scoot back up and see my post! Lol!!

I like your quotation under your name: "--think over your blessings, and be grateful."

I have lived in Waco, Dallas, Mesquite, Austin, San Antonio--still trying to figure how I wound up down here south of Houston in beautiful Pearland!!

We called that one Stone School

Omigiosh!! I am so sorry, Lenalu,- I totally missed that. It's a miracle to me that anyone else knows that game. We LOVED it!!! LOL

I bet I'll think of more as the day goes on.

That quote is from LITTLE WOMEN, which I just read for the very first time. It's nice, I think because it puts things in perspective. I've heard it said in other ways, but I like the simplicity here.

Lenalu, my family moved to Houston during WW2, and to Bellaire at the end of the war. I lived there until John & I moved to Tennessee in 1962. The only family I have left in Texas now is in The Valley. My parents grew up in NE Texas.

When i got married my father-in-law had taught his children to play Pokena which was like poker on "bingo-like" cards, turning up a deck of cards, one at a time as the "call" We play it alot w/ friends and family. It's a great family game. As many people can play as you have "bingo" cards for. Is that the one you meant?....jean

Jean, No, that's not the one I meant and I corrected myself. I believe that Rummoli is called Michigan Rummy here in the states. It's played with cards, a plastic fold out sheet that goes on the table, (or a divided tray) and chips or pennies. Click here to see it....

http://www.funagain.com/control/product/~product_id=000832

When I played it in Canada growing up, it was Rummoli.

I got into this discussion at the end so I don't know -this was probably talked about- but, did anyone play Cribbage?

I had a great uncle who made big cribbage tables that he gave to all the family. You could sit at this board/table and play.

He had little rhymes for each play

Fifteen two, the rest won't do.

Fifteen four, there are no more.

Fifteen six, and five's a fix!

etc....

In college, I played a lot of a card game called Setback. Anyone?

No problema about your not seeing my post about the "School" game. I thought that was unusual that we both remembered that game at about the same time!

Ah, Little Women, I read that and several other Louisa May Alcott's books--several times as I was growing up. I identified with Jo--tomboy and avid reader.

Annie3, Stone School--now isn't that something--I don't recall us calling it that, but it makes sense! It seems such a shame to me that most children nowadays don't feel the need to make up games out of almost nothing but their imaginations.

MaryZ, small world. I lived in Austin during the war (WW2). I worked in Bellaire in 1979-80. I hardly ever went into downtown Houston--no trouble finding my way in, but got lost everytime I would attempt to find my way back out!

I dont remember it being called that .. the older girls on the street were the ones that organized that game and I was about 6-7 at the oldest 8 when we played it but I think it is the same game Our steps were wide ..4 high and somewhere I have a picture taken on my 5th birthday with all the neighbor children sitting on the steps My mother was so good with the nieghbor children , making hot cocoa and hot corn bread in winter when we would come in from the cold and offering lemonade or even home made ice cream in summer. She preferred they come to our house as she didnt really want me to go to theirs ..VERY protective of her only little girl! but also provided me with wonderful happy memories...anna

Skootz

The game I spoke of earlier, called Kitty Cat (and lost that post entirely), I'll explain now.

We would get a "deck mop" handle, cut off a piece about 6 or 7 inches long, sharpen both ends of that small piece, (like to a pencil point), then we would sharpen the end of the long stick. With that, we scooped out a hole in the ground (nobody had paved driveways) and we placed the small stick (the kitty) at a slant in this hole. The long stick was the Cat, and we would "give the kitty a lick", meaning hit the tip of the kitty with the tip of the Cat, which sent it up into the air. At that point, you had to make contact with the kitty and bat it as far as possible towards a line, which was the winning point. If the kitty didn't land on the line, but was flat on the ground, you still had to take a lick at the point (harder to do when it was flat) and harder to get it airborne. I seem to recall that children had turns and had a certain amount of "licks" before they were OUT! If someone got the kitty ON the line...well..they were big time champions!! However, the nearest to the line got the most points. I think we set a game at a certain number of points, before it would end and another round begin. Depended upon how soon our Mothers made us come in the house!!! Everyone always wanted to stay outside in those days. I suppose children would never be allowed pointed sticks now. I do not recall anyone ever getting hurt with those sticks, though. They were only used for the game; not to poke or hit anyone.

A couple more games I thought of were "Claimsie/Clapsie", which was mentioned (throwing the ball up against a wall and doing different actions each time.)

"Three Kings A-Riding"...."In And Out The Window". I may think of more played in Canada.

This is so refreshing. What a great discussion!!!

Yes indeed, I play cribbage, both with the board and pegs and real cards but also on Hoyle's card games which I've loaded onto my computer. I've often beaten the computer as well. There are also a number of counting rhymes for the ball and jump rope.. A house to let, no rent to pay, knock at the door and run away.! Eeenie,meenie macaracka, air, eye, dominacka out goes you! Mrs D, Mrs I, Mrs F, F, I, Mrs C, Mrs U Mrs L, T, Y.. which went faster & faster until the rope tripped you..(difficulty!!) And lots more.

Colkot

We played a lot of Statue. A person would be it and the other kids would make poses until the it person yelled stop and then the it person would come over and touch the statue on the shoulder and the statue could move and show what she did...the it person tried to guess and if she guessed right then the statue would be it. Sounds really strange in the description, but it was fun. As for roller skating, I always had them on it seems and my skate key around my neck on an old shoe string. All summer I would be teased for the scabs on my knees for falling down so much on the sidewalks.

Kitty Cat sounds like fun- and hard! LOL

I need to find a place to play cribbage online with real people. colkot.Do you know of one? Skipping rhymes- Knocking at you door, sir

Are you coming out, sir?

No sir, why sir, because I got a cold sir,

Where'd ya get the cold sir? at the North Pole, sir? How many did ya catch, sir?

One sir, two sir, etc, etc

I played a different game of staues. The leader would "spin" the others around by their arm and when let go they had to strike a "pose" . I forget where it went from there but I recall the spinning! LOL

Oh memories, oh memories. First Statues. WE played this way: One person stood in the middle of the street and shut their eyes and counted to 25. The others twirled until the counter said 25 STOP! Then you had to remain frozen ,like a statue, while the person in the middle kept turning around until he spotted someone that blinked or moved a limb. Then the "It" person screamed "Moved!" and the child who moved would of course argue wether or not he had moved. If they accepted it they would be IT next. Lots of arguments with this one.

Then the Ball game which someone mentioned went like this in Brooklyn N.Y. One Oleary , two Oleary Three Oleary, Four! Five Oleary, Six Oleary , Seven O leary , More! Nine Oleary, Ten Oleary , DONE! Each verse had a different trick with the ball. We also played "Stoop Ball" but never "Stoop School" .

Did anyone play endless games of cards called "War"? or "Casino"?

Judy

Game,

Game we used to play was "Annie Over" where a ball ws thrown over a room an dif the other side caught the baall the side thorwing the ball had to run to the other sie of the house without being hit with the ball. Funny game.

Tiger Tom

lets do that last over:

Ball was thrown over a roof and if the other side caught the ball, etc.

Tiger Tom

One potato, two potato, three potato four.Five potato, six potato, seven potato more. Judy, your O'Leary rhyme made me think of that--although I can't recall what kind of game this went with.

We played an almost endless card game which we called "Battle". the only exciting thing about it was when we had a "tie" of identical cards being put down at the same time. It was just a simple game and terribly boring--yet no one would want to just quit playing it,

We played something like that too. Threw the ball over our house, called it allie, allie over. A similar one was red light green light I hope to see the ghost tonight. We always had a sports game going, usually touch football or roll up. How easily those great memories come back with you all speaking of the games of childhood.

I am not sure I recall that game correctly but it seems to me when you got the seven potato more ..than you went one two three and your out ..I keep thinking it was like eeny meeny miney mo..you eliminated players but darn if I know why! Statues I played with my Girl Scouts when I needed them to settle down..I would close my eyes and count to some number and they would get into whatever position they wanted and when I opened my wywa would watch to see if anyone moved ...to be honest I took my time just to allow them to settle down I had 20 girls in my troop and it was the ONLY way I could calm them long enough to move on to some other activity..worked great too..anna

One potato, two potato, etc. sounds familiar to me to but makes me think of a game where you clap hands. I would clap my hands together and then clap them out both to the hands of the next person and then together again and on and on. There was some sort of pattern and a rhyme.

Counting Game Teachers introduce this short rhyme, show young children how to hold their hands in a fist and then act as the first leader.

One Potato, Two Potato One potato, two potato, Three potato, four, Five potato, six potato, Seven potato, more!

Playing the game: Preschoolers stand in a circle and hold out their hands in a fist with thumbs up. The leader takes one fist and begins counting off each fist by gently tapping them. When the leader needs to count his/her counting fist, tap it on the chin. When you get to "more", put that fist behind your back. Keep repeating the rhyme over and over until one fist is left. That preschooler is the winner and becomes the new leader.

Lenalu I think War and Battle was the same Game. . The tie breaker would take in many cards.

Did anyone ever play a game with a pen knife ? You throw the penknife into the earth and divide squares into parts by your throw. Your squares get smaller and smaller and you need more and more skill to hit the smaller divisions of property. Mostly boys played this but once or twice they let me join in and I was ever so proud. I think the game may be called Mumbelty Peg but we had another name for it which I can't recall at the moment.

Judy

Yep, we did play that one also; however, we preferred using an ice-pick! Of course, that involved one of us sneaking the ice-pick out of the house and everyone hoping Mother didn't notice--we thought she was so unreasonable!--she was afraid we might aim wrong and stab our barefeet! We had bare ground to draw a big circle on (didn't draw a square); and yards were kept clear of weeds and grass. Not many people in the neighborhood had lawnmowers--

This was another game that I was not welcome to play except when my brother's friends weren't there and it was Me or Nobody!

Was the name of the penknife game I never played but my brothers and their friends did I was afraid of knives so I just watched I know they drew a circle on the ground to play. An ICE Pick ?? boy would my mother have been upset < especially with the ice pick since we had no refrigerator until later and she needed it dor summer drinks,,,anna

Mumbly Peg,

Yes I played that a few times. Cannot recall muc of the game other than one had to flip the knife so it would go up and land on a square.

Tiger Tom

Marjorie, your mention of the game with clapping brings another to mind -- you'd slap hands on thighs twice, then clap twice, then snap fingers twice. Everyone had a number? Then someone would call out something like 12, 2 and No. 2, staying in the rhythm would call out 2, 7, and so on. If you couldn't keep the rhythm or if you messed up when your number was called, you'd have to drop out. I think we called it Concentration.

Pedlin- Talking about Circle Games..I remember a game where you weren't allowed to laugh (Girl Scout Game). The IT person would stand in front of you and do weird things to make you laugh. If you laughed you were in the circle and had to make someone else laugh. By the end of the game most everyone was laughing so hard that we were almost rolling on the ground from laughter.

Judy

Anyone mention Rock, Paper, Scissors?

Sootz,

Yes, a while back That game was mentioned.

Guess we are coming up on the next Curious minds on the 16th. This has been a fum discussion and I thank you all for participating.

This wil be my last Curious MInds discussion as my vision problems have become too bad so I have to restrict Computer, TV and reading to bare minimum if at all.

Tiger Tom

What will we do without you ???You have led some interesting discussions and added to everything we do. We wont have a Curious Minds until May since it would seem our leaders in this area have other problems and things they must do ....right now I do have someone to do a discussion in May...Tom I know how you must feel to come to that time when you have to limit some of your activities,. I do have a daughter who became legally blind in her 30'd but with some special programs uses her computer all the time. If you are anyone might be interested I will find out what she uses, She does a newspaper column for her local paper , and has a web site as well. Since my hearing is going the computer allows us to communicate .so it is a blessing to me..Thank you so much Tom for all you have done. You can pat yourself on the back and say as I YOU DONE GOOD. God Bless you always, anna

Thank you so much for all you have done for us here at SeniorNet. I am so sorry to hear about your vision problems -- I do hope you have a reader, and lots of access to the audio books you want to "read."

I'm not gonna say "we'll miss you," because I hope we won't have to. I do hope you'll find the help necessary that will let you continue to participate.

At least, you can retire from Curious Minds knowing you brought to us one of the best and most delightful Curious Minds ever.

TIGER TOM: I wish you the best. ANNAFAIR and PEDLN have already eloquently said everything I could wish to say.

Tiger Tom

I "third" the emotion that Marjorie,Annafair and Pedln have expressed. You are a shining light in SeniorNet and I hope, also, that you will find a way to continue.

This has been a great discussion and really took us back!!

Thanks so much.

Tom,

I am only a newcomer here. But this discussion has been such fun- to look back at all the fun and silliness we had as kids.

I hope I can get to know you more here and that you can find a way to participate. You must be a nice guy to have all these ladies so sad to see you go. God bless!

Tom,

This has been a wonderful discussion ! Perhaps you can be a participant rather than a leader in the days to come.There is a way to enlarge the font by 200% through the use of WORD .I can ask my husband how to do this if you are interested. Please be well and again, thanks for this walk down Memory Lane.

Judy

It's been fun.I've participated with Tiger Tom before. Wish you all the best..I do hope you have a reader who will give you pleasure in your daily life. ( I used to read for my nephew when he was in college and he's been blind since he was about 6)

Scootz..it seems we had similar upbringing..I know all your games and am a scrabble nut also, The best to all Colkot

Colkot- if you ever get over to www.isc.ro, please look me up and we can Scrabble!! I am Scootz over there, too.

Thanks a lot, Tom. I agree, this has been lots of fun.

Thanks TOM. I have made this discussion Read Only to wait for the next Curious Minds.

San Francisco Chronicle

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines,
journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.

COME, JOIN US!

Please look over the articles linked below on Immigration
BEFORE you give us the benefit of your thoughts.

Major immigration movements to the United States
Overview of U.S. Immigration Policy
Americans for Immigration Control |||| End the Immigration War and Open the Borders

What are your views on the current issues surrounding immigration?

Should the U.S. government tighten the border with Mexico and if so, how would you see that happening?

Do you think we should open our doors to immigrants if their reason for coming is because the nation they are fleeing is having economic problems?

If a country is having political problems, should the U.S. allow citizens from this country to seek asylum here?

When immigrants and refugees leave their homelands, they take with them customs and traditions that over time, adds to the overall culture of the U.S. This represents change in the nation.

Do you embrace this foreseeable change or,
does this change confuse you or,
do you feel the changes are Un-American?

The first post for this topic is HERE.

Discussion Leader:
Barbara St. Aubrey

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If you do NOT wish your words quoted, please contact Books.

whew this is a tough one to sort out - and we may have opposing ideas and feelings about this issue - however this is where we can voice our thoughts and see the other side of the issue that we may just not see -

I know everyone will honor that we can talk about this and agree to disagree if necessary - it isn't each other we want to attack but the ideas that someone may express that could sound so opposite to our own thoughts and feelings.

Seems the President is in the middle on this as well - in his speech tonight he offered a little bit to everyone...

Securing US borders: An increase of border guards to 15,000. National Guards would be sent until extra guards could be trained, but they would not undertake direct law enforcement.
- Hi-tech fences,
- border patrol roads,
- motion sensors would be installed
- speedy deportation with increased numbers of beds in detention centres
- expediting legal procedures.
A temporary worker programme
New ID cards for legal foreign workers, to include biometric technology, would be introduced in order to ensure that employers could verify they were hiring legal workers.
Providing illegal immigrants with a chance of citizenship - applicants would have to
- pay a penalty for breaking the law,
- pay taxes,
- learn English,
- "wait in line" behind legal migrants.

The whole two-year package will cost about $1.9 billion. He insisted the US "is not going to militarise the southern border" - showing President Vicente Fox we are not starting a border war.

Well what do you think?

PLEASE take a look at the links above - even if you do not read all four thoroughly please look them over BEFORE you post your thoughts and that way we are discussing from the same pages so to speak... Looking forward to your thoughts - as I say this is a tough one...

Just wanted to say you have chosen a VERY CURRENT topic ..thanks for taking this months CM looking forward to this discussion..anna

I have such a difficult time with this subject because I've known too many people who have been here illegally, but my main problem with the way the subject has been discussed is that the way discussions are usually held seems to assume that

(a) all undocumented workers enter the country illegally
(b) if we shore up the borders with Mexico, this will all go away.

The undocumented workers that I have known in my life came here legally on tourist visas and just never went back to their native country. And NONE of them were Mexicans, or came across the border between Mexico and the United States.

Nobody seems to factor those immigrants into the equation.

I worked for a time with a student exchange organization which ran exchange programs all over the world and at one point we had to stop accepting students from Nigeria because so many came to this country and just never made it to their home stays because their real intent was to get into the country.

How Interesting Barbara. I would like to participate in this discussion and perhaps bring a Canadian's point of view. First I want to get all my facts and read the links you provided, then I will give my views. Thanks for bringing this up.

Thanks Anna - yes, this does seem to be "the" topic of the day isn't it...

Bev interesting - what do you think then - do you see that those slipping in as exchange students were escaping economic problems or political problems - did you agree with the decision to stop accepting students from Nigeria and if so why - I do not want to put words in your mouth but I wondered was it because the organization felt used or that these folks were not obeying our laws of entry or or or... would you share with us your thoughts on your experience... please.

Great Eloise - a Canadian perspective would be refreshing - seems to me though wasn't your son concerned about the imbalance in population in France - do you know enough about those issues to share them with us? Seems to me Europe is having some of its own sorting out what to do about immigrants that come as cheap labor and stay.

Thanks for starting us off folks - I am curious myself to hear all the views that are out there...

They stopped accepting students from Nigeria because they knew that the students were breaking the law and it put the exchange program in jeopardy, since they were vouching for them. A few slipping through the system could be understandable, but if you just accepted that most of the students from a certain country would, it was different.

Later, we were sort of complicit in the entrance of a man from Zaire, though I believe he came through legally on a tourist visa, but he had no intention of returning to what was then Zaire (now Congo) because he felt his life was in jeopardy as, we learned later, it almost certainly was. He escaped the bloodbath that came later. I don't have a clue here he is now, but I know that he is still in this country and may even have found a way to stay here legally, for all I know.

One of our students came from Brasil, where he felt in danger because he was gay. After his time with us, he returned to Brasil and then came back on a tourist visa and lived here for 15 years, illegally, working at two restaurant jobs in a large city. He later moved to Europe, where he now lives.

I don't have the answer for illegal immigration. I don't even know how much it bothers me because my heart aches for the refugees from Haiti who put their lives on the line trying to come here in poorly made boats, only to find themselves sent back to the conditions that were so extreme that it forced them to leave.

By the same token, I see the problems of people who arrive here with no knowledge of the language, no way to work legally, etc., etc.

It is such a terribly multi-faceted problem that I'm glad I'm not a lawmaker forced to come up with some sort of a policy.

But it's not a black-and-white issue and when you know the stories behind the actual PEOPLE, it makes it more difficult to just condemn all illegal immigrants out of hand.

I hope using the National Guard is not an additional hardship on those families. They have been called upon so often in the last half decade.

I feel at a loss to know what to think on this issue, so i'm really looking forward to this discussion to clarify the issue for me. The program for illegal people sounds good, but i'm interested in hearing from people who have different perspectives on it. How do you feel about an ID card? A wall sounds ludicrous to me, but i don't have another suggestion.

Don't we already have a temporary worker program, which Bev suggests may not work because no on keeps track of the people when their visas expire? Is it possible to keep track of them?

Making employers responsible sounds logical and just, but i'm sure it creates many problems for the employers.

"is a puzzlement."...........jean

I'm not at my home computer, but just one comment. Like Bev, I have known a couple of illegal immigrants. Both were young women who came into the country legally, could not get green cards, and then overstayed their visas. This made them 'illegals'. Neither were from Mexico.

One ultimately returned to her home country, waited until she could re-enter legally, with a green card. She has since married and become a U.S. citizen.

The second young woman stayed in the U.S. for about a year after her visa expired, working the whole time, but was unable to get a green card. She has since returned to her home country.

Not the stories we usually think of when we hear the term, "illegal immigrant".

Good point, Mary Z. The way it is reported, it makes you think of dirt poor, shiftless, drain on the system, etc. None of the people I knew who stayed here illegally fit that description.

I even knew a man from Nigeria who worked for the federal government in a fairly high ranking position in the DC area, who lied his way to a green card, but was really looking over his shoulder for several years until he finally got permanent residency, for fear that his lies would catch up with him.

woud we still fight wars over territory? or just settle down where ever we were and move about as the spirit and conditions dictated

Those lines drawn on the map can be troublesome and are a modern construct.. . . claire

So far most of your experiences Bev, Mary and Jean, are with immigrants from places other than Mexico and Central America - maybe not living in a border state gives a different perspective - the issue of the day seen in the news seems to dwell on the 11 million crossing our Southern Border -

Of the Border States filled with anger over the illegal migration is Arizona - oh, there are pockets in the other states but overall there has been a mixture for longer than the territory was part of the United States therefore some of the issues were simply part of the communities within those states. I remember when Texas had its big come uppence having to educate the children of migrant pickers that have extended now to the children of illegals who do all sorts of work.

Back, when their major job was picking, most of the families wintered over here in Texas and then starting in March followed the crops north till they hit the apple orchards in Wisconsin. In late fall families all piled in, 10 to 12 in a vehicle, for the slow ride back to Texas where the law said, Texas had to educate these children regardless that it meant hiring teachers and supplying books as well as heated classroom space for only 4 months out of the school year.

With the large migration from South of the Border the impact of so many have changed some of our culture and many do not like that Spanish is used in some cases to the exclusion of English in many communities. Here in Texas it was only 5 or 6 years ago when the ruling was struck down in response to the idea that no Spanish could be spoken on the job if you were a city or state worker regardless you were only a janitor.

Some of the jobs in Texas, especially ranch jobs have always been carried out by Mexicans and so the Mexican music and culture has been a part of this state where as this is new for some states like the Carolinas or Iowa or Kansas. At first, it appeared to be a novelty but now the floodgates have opened with more immigrants from South of the Border entering illegally in the past 5 years than any other time in history.

I know I was shocked to learn not very long ago that we do not have an official language in the United States. I've had enough experiences of late that I have made up my mind I must learn to speak Spanish rather than thinking it is fun to know a few phrases and a be able to identify a few things by its Spanish name. Some resent having to learn Spanish in order to get along in their community.

It would be good to hear how you would feel if within a few short years - say 5 years - you found that 20% of your community spoke a different language and lived by a different set of rules and worked hard but sent their money out of the community back to their homeland.

Then the other question of the day seems to be what you think about sending the Guard to the border to beef up border patrol?

winsom you came in while I was writing the post above - I wondered also about borders - except the other side of that is creating a community that takes care of those who live in the community - government has become such a distant thing but essentially we all chip in [pay taxes] to educated the children, care for the sick, buy fire trucks and maybe even have a staff on call, have trained police, roads and traffic signals etc. etc. so that moving where we would like, when - can pose some problems funding and keeping these programs going for everyone.

It is like an addition to a family - during the family get together there is another place to be set - if the family never knew who would or would not show up for the various occasions or if family members didn't take care of each other or they all expected one or two to carry the load for the entire family there is hard feelings - I think that is some of the issue at hand with illegal immigration.

now and then there is an abuse of the medical system by well off Mexicans who drive over the borer in their limosenes to have their children in ameican hospitals and then drive home again to mexico. I suppose there will always be systems and the breakdown of them as people try to find their way around them. We have problems with the canadan border too now for different reasons. They hate us for using up their natural forests. . .wood for our expansion is gobbling them up. They don't like it that seniors and others come over for cheaper pharmasuticals. in one case I asked google for a resource in Canada and the prices were equal to or more than they are here, so they are wising up too.

they say good fences make good neighbors, but it sounds dglib to me. good neighbors take care of each other and exchange goods and capacities een if there is a discrency in perceived value. Its human to respond to need when it's close by. We must consider this too. . . claire

I understand that a lot of the current controversy is due to Hispanic, mostly Mexican, illegal immigrants. But are we limiting this discussion to that problem? If so, that's fine - just asking to clarify the ground rules.

Barbara -- I live in California. Not sure how much more relevant you want! But the point I was making, as was pointed out by Mary Z, is that the problem is not strictly a Mexican problem. There are other citizens of other countries who are here as well.

One of our students from Brasil was picked up by the border patrol in San Diego three times...and let go because it was cheaper to return illegals to Mexico than to Brasil. (He is now married to an American and living here legally)

No Mary the idea is to include all aspects of immigration however the illegal immigration is what has most people upset. And it is not just illegal immigrants, it is specific to those who are illegal from the Southern Borders - However please share any thoughts or ideas you have about this current hot button issue...

I have helped several Indonesian families whose background is Chinese to buy their homes - they do not have green cards although their son or daughter has been accepted into the University of Texas and so they buy a house sometimes using the son or daughter's name and other times they purchase as a foreign person for the son or daughter to live in the house or condo while they are attending school. After graduation if the son or daughter gets a job here the company arranges for them to get a green card within 6 months of their starting to work and again the parents stay on.

As I understand they all try to be legal and therefore must go back to Indonesia for at least 2 weeks every year - the problem they have in receiving a visa is that Indonesia distributes the visas by lottery. Most of these families have been on the lottery list for years with no luck. For them it is not the US that is holding things up it is Indonesia - What most folks do not know is the Indonesian people with Chinese heritage are severely discriminated against and when anything goes wrong in Indonesia they are blamed. They have to board themselves up in their homes with family members behind barricades 24 hours a day with guns.

You never hear any negative statements about the growing Asian population in Austin - I think it is because they are smart - have jobs usually in the High Tech industry or they are receiving top grades at UT and the families are very good with their money - some have money and others save and then quietly invest in property. Where as the town in now 38% Mexican - the percentage with a college education or investment money is very very low with most of the families hard working close knit families that prefer to speak Spanish. Also there is a history of bad blood between Mexico and Texas that carries on as an undercurrent. On the other hand we cannot imagine Austin without a Mexican population - it is just that it was always about 18 to 22% of the town rather than this increased percent which is continuing to creep up till they say in another 10 years we will be 48% Mexican.

I did the polls all day Saturday [6 in the morning till 8 at night] with an all Mexican team in my neighborhood that has maybe 5% well educated Mexican American families. I was shocked to see so many of my neighbors giving me a look that was easy to see they saw me as someone who was supposed to understand I was not part of the team and doing them all a favor. I enjoyed working with this team who I had not ever met before and was really taken back to see how many saw this as an oddity.

And so to me a lot of the uproar is really racial and not wanting to have an increase in the number of folks who were disempowered because they neither had the money to compete or the numbers to make a difference - now all of a sudden the numbers are creeping up...

and unstable. there is crime and mafia like groups hold sway. Those areas are unsafe after dark.

winsom I am curious are the Asian communities where you live made up of poor or middle-class and are they educated beyond high school?

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060515/NEWS0103/605150347

Has anyone read this article. I think it is rather sad.

My ancesters were held on Ellis Island until they were tested for health problems and checked for papers. The problem for me is, US is only so big and when quotas are met that's it. Who looked the other way while millions of non-American's crossed our borders illigally.

I live in Florida and we have many many latinos here. What is always interesting to me is that the Cubans who are mostly all legal look down on and do not like to associate with the Mexicans ( both legal and illegal). Puerto Ricans are amazing in that they are US citizens and yet are the biggest problem as far as language goes. Cubans learn and speak English fairly rapidly since they clearly know the way to get ahead in the US is to speak the language in public. The Mexicans are sort of interesting in that they do not seem to particularly care about education.. The Puerto Ricans are all going back home as soon as things improve. They never do, but they are always going to. The rest of the latinos are from various south american countries and many are illegal coming through from Mexico.

assians are probably at the top and african americans at the bottom with hispanics in between. . . after all the asians and african americans don't return home to their old countries. for that matter this is the home country for the african americans. Mexivcans are more apt to make alittle money here and go back to be with their families. they get home sick too. there are problems between Koreans who are store keepers and AFAM who are often unemployed and who steal from them. our AFAM come from slaves and their own cultures were ripped from them. The asians still have theirs and group together in communities here where they practice them. this is only in general and in the los angeles and orange county area. Asians are considered to be good students and employees. . .hard working, neat, ambitious, but they have their problems to adjusting to a different country where their old ways of working things out within the family aren't respected by the youth. I'm sure there is more to it than that. This is just what I've noticed from the outside. me an upper class jewish community reared person having spent most of my life in Los Angeles I see that it has changed radically for the wore. it' not as safe as it was it's racially varied now making for territorial problems that didn't exist on so many levels before and the traffic is . .. well more than difficult. I left town in 1986 and moved to san juan capistrano hardly any cars on the street mid day but now that is all changed too. southern CA is getting very crowded. . . .claire

In middle and eastern Tennessee and northern Georgia, there are large Hispanic populations - primarily Central American and Mexican. There are large job markets for them in the plant nursery, poultry-growing businesses, and construction in TN, and in construction and the huge carpet-mill business in GA. There are so many immigrants that INS has had an office in little Dalton, GA, ("Carpet Capital of the World") for years - and I don't think there is one in Chattanooga.

In Dalton, particularly, there has been a huge impact on the schools and other services in that otherwise rural county.

And there is no way of knowing how many of these generally hard-working folks are illegal. This is reflected in the number of Mexican restaurants and Hispanic tiendas that are popping up almost weekly. Our newspaper has recently started putting out a Spanish-language edition.

Immigration, legal or illegal, is having an impact - whether or not it's in a border state.

And, as Stephanie indicates, all those who speak Spanish are not the same. People from different countries, and from areas within those countries, have different cultures and different traditions.

We have family in the LA area, and Spanish-speaking immigrants have always been there - were there first in fact. As I understand it from them, there are many more problems with Asian and Pacific Islander immigration. It's a great problem in the schools, with so many non-English-speaking students coming in, speaking so many different languages.

I've also heard that ballots in elections are printed in over 30 different languages. I do have a problem with that, I fear. IMHO, if one is going to be a citizen and become informed enough to vote, you should be able to do it in the primary (if not "official") language of the country - no matter what the country is.

I don't mean this for you necessarily, but it always makes me smile when I hear people complaining about those who come here and don't speak English--and then those same people complaining when they are traveling abroad how they can't find anybody to speak English to them, as if we expect English to be the universal language, no matter which country we are traveling in.

It bothers me that kids in this country never get a sense of the value of learning a second language--and in this day and age when there is such a large Latino and Asian population, it's just plum crazy not to speak at least a little Spanish, Portuguese or some Asian language.

One of our foreign students came from Germany and told me that in their school system, they begin bi-lingual instruction, English and German, when they start school and continue to add languages so that by the time they graduate from high school they are conversant-to-fluent in 8 different languages. Of course, when you have other countries just a day or two drive from the center of your own country, that makes a lot more sense. But we have none of that "expectation" of learning a second language in school any more, if we ever did.

Things are so screwed up in this world of ours. Obviously, looking at the problems of overcrowding, not only here, but in countries around the world, overpopulation is a huge problem (she says, having given birth to five children of her own...) and yet we have groups like the Catholic church refusing to give assistance for AIDS education to any clinic which mentions birth control. The fanatical wing of the religious right is dead set against condom distribution in schools and preaching only abstinence, though that does nothing for the kids who are already sexually active--and leaves them vulnerable to pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, etc.

I'm rambling here, but the problem isn't only illegal immigration and sticking a few more national guard troops on the border ain't gonna do a darn thing except leave states who have unexpected natural disasters more vulnerable than they already are because their protectors are over in Iraq in a war we never should have started in the first place.

(There--have I angered enough people with enough inflammatory topics yet?)

Just a quicky - will respond to each later tonight - but please do not think you have angered folks - yes, they may have a strong opinion different than yours but let's air this out - no one is going to hurt another person here - we are very aware there are strong opinions on all sides of this dilemma so lets hear them - only by airing them out will we find any sort of agreement because it may be on just one little phrase you say that others can agree to and that can be the start.

We all have our ideas of what is practical and what is reasonable and what to us sounds like an excuse to justify certain thoughts and behavior - but regardless let's air this out and look at all sides of this issue. We are not attacking each other - we are only sharing our deep beliefs and values that may be different than someone else posting.

OK back later - gotta run...hehehehe be brave - but really I mean it...

and the world is screwed up. . . what a mess. The language issue has been with us from square one. The english settled the first colonies but the indians who were already here spoke more than one of their languages and then the french and ultimately the germans and the spanish came in. made it necessary for everyone to learn somehow to commnicate if only for trade and intermarriage.

Do you remember or did anyone besides me watch twenty two years worth of star trek where they had translaters that worked vocally? We have them now on our computers and mine speaks to me all the time in english. If I were to highlight this and press two buttons. . . the option and the z, on my keyboard, a pleasant female voice would read it all out loud to me. I believe also there is a feature that allows me to do everything in a selection of foreign languages, foreign to me anyway so we're on our way. eventually we'll all carry cell phone like gadgets which will translate for us on the spot. now about immigration. I'm for it, with id cards just like the ones we carry if we don't happen to drive and have driver's licenses. The employers need to be somehow constrained. They are at the crux of the problem seeking to hire what amounts to disabled people, disabled in that it limits their choice of postions, lacking the languages needed to do them. . . . Claire

I know what you mean, Bev...and I didn't mean to imply that I feel that way. If I were going to be living in a country with another language, though, I would make every effort to learn the local language. And I would not expect everybody to speak English. We've been in other countries, and have done our best to make our way without expecting people to speak English.

I also agree that all students in the US should be learning at least one language other than English. Our girls all took Spanish, and spent six weeks in South America as teenagers on an exchange program. Our oldest grand is a double major, one being Spanish.

Having said all that, I still object to ballots being printed in languages other than English. The US may not have an 'official language', but it's not a bi- or multi-lingual country either. Somehow, the ballot to me is one of the most precious symbols of being a citizen of this (or any other) country, and I think anybody in a position to cast a ballot should care enough to have learned the language ('official' or not) of the country. That's enough of my soapbox, too.

If I buy a new phone or other electronic gadget, from a major company the directions are usually printed in four languages. . .so why not the ballots? Even the cartridges for my HP printer are printed in several languages.

I guess the ballot thing isn't such a hotbutton issue with me because I know that there are some people who learn languages much easier than others. I am one of those fortunate people who has a good ear for languages. I majored in French and picked up Portuguese by osmosis, just by having so many Brasilian students living with us. I can kinda sorta muddle along reading Spanish and Italian, a little bit. My husband, though, is totally hopeless. He has an analytic brain that gets mathematics, engingeering and that sort of thing easily (the sort of thing that totally eludes me), but he can't learn another language to save his soul. He'd have a very difficult time if we were to move to a non-English speaking country.

I've also watched students living with us struggle with the language. For some of them it came effortlessly; for others it was a terrible struggle.

I think about people who immigrate here legally at an older age, when the brain has more difficulty learning new things, especially if your brain doesn't work that way in the first place. By only printing a ballot in English, we essentially eliminate them from the decision process expressing an opinion about how they are to be governed.

It's nice to say that everybody living here should speak English, but sometimes that's not quite as easy as it sounds.

When I was growing up in San Francisco, the city was more divided then than it is now. You had the Italian neighborhood, the Chinese neighborhood, the German neighborhood, the Mexican neighborhood. I grew up Catholic and each of these neighborhoods had its own native-language church too. People moved to neighborhoods where they could have friends who spoke the same language. Now it's more homogenized and I'd be willing to bet that English is NOT the prominent language of the residents of San Francisco any more.

we have so much of it now on the radio and television. I took four years of it in college and can pick it up if I'm around it all the time but don't speak it in any organized way. However I used to have a friend who was mexican/greek and grew up in Los Angeles and we sang together. I found that singing in spanish provided the linkages that occur to natural speakers and even though I have a very limited vocabulary people think I speak it because of that. as in de la rosa becomes "dellaro sa"....etc. I'm sure that happens in other languages too. as a folk singer and the daughter of a classical lider singer I found myself singing in french, italian and german without really understanding what I was doing. In spanish I do know what I'm saying. My son has a great ear for language, my daughter and husband do not . It must be a gift. . . Claire

Y'all are certainly right about some of us having "an ear" for languages. I'm one of those lucky ones who does, and can find similarities in different languages from their roots.

This is just another one of those difficult problems, for which there are no easy answers.

Tonight on the news I see they are going to put a fence, is it 380 miles of fence across the border between the US and Mexico. It's 3 levels or something, three layers. I have just now heard of it tho I'm sure everybody else but me is up on it.

I am of mixed emotions about it, do any of you have any thoughts on it one way or the other?

That is terrible! And also very foolish. There are already many tunnels.

It doesn't matter much WHAT they do....if they don't prosecute the Employers that hire the illegals, it will all be a waste. Punish the ones that hire them, and they will stop coming. No jobs, unless authorized to be here.

Oh, well...it's been said before. Personally, I'd build a massive wall. I'm sick of the whole topic. They never enforced the last laws they passed, and for all the "show" the President puts on...it won't matter this time either. He never said a word about punishing the people that hire them.

Sun

it's so easy to blow a hole in it if there isn't a person right there watching it. 380 miles of watching? not likely. as usual it's just a lot of posturing when do we start on the fence separating us from Canada? It's hard to be civil when evaluating such a stupid idea. claire

Sun, you're absolutely right. As long as the employers aren't penalized, and penalized severely enough to make it hurt, nothing will change.

I think a wall is a terrible idea. What makes this different from the wall they're building in Israel or the Berlin Wall?

Of Course, a wall is a terrible idea...it shouldn't even have to be considered (and no one believes they will ever do it anyway).

But you know what? Fox is now threating to SUE us if we use the National Guard...he doesn't want any walls, weapons, or enforcement of any kind. But what right do they have to threaten US about enforcing OUR OWN laws? I'm just mad...no sense spouting off.

I keep reading articles about how we took land away from them for Texas, and they have a right to get it back. Bull...when they give the entire U.S. back to the Indians, then they can start returning Texas to Mexico.

Ya'll carry on. I really am about to hush and just saw no more, because I have nothing constructive to say.

Sun

I just found this forum... interesting.

I was born and spent the first 34 years of my life in Southwest Texas near the Mexican border. Some of the first words in my vocabulary were Spanish. The first 8 years of my life, we lived on the ranch and where help was mixed, neighbors (because of the depression and drought) and some Mexicans, both legal and illegal.

When we moved to town, my father always made sure that there were beans and flour in the bunk house for any "mojados" (wetbacks) passing through. It was what I've heard the hobos were like, leaving messages and letting others to come know who they were and where they were from. The resident Mexicans in town could collect a bounty for reporting illegals and it was not uncommon to hear the Border Patrol planes flying over the ranch.

Later, some of them stayed to work and a few became friends. When a vehicle would drive up, they scattered to the bushes until the visitor was gone. Mostly they stayed a short time and moved on. One man, Abdon Tellez y Mendez, stay for a long time and my children became quite attached to him.

The town I lived in until I went off to college had a population of at least 50% hispanic. It is probably more than that today and many of the political offices in the country are held by hispanics.

Texas was Mexican before it was a republic and the influences on my life have been Mexican. I speak Spanish and have known Mexicans from several social levels. We had a Mexican partner who was influencial politically and was a graduate of Texas A&M. His wife was born to French parents in Mexico City and was educated in a French school there. She was an adult when she learned Spanish.

I have often worked immigrants and I never ask their legal status. The worst ones have been from Central America, people that I picked up at Casa Marianella in Austin; however a woman from Costa Rica lived with us a year legally before she had to return to San Jose.

I've helped at least 2 men get their papers mid '80s. Unfortunately, they didn't turn out to be sterling citizens as both took to drink once they didn't have anything to worry about.

A fence on the Texas border is completely impractical. Anyone who has been there can tell you that and I doubt that any fence could contain the flow of Mexicans coming up from the south.

I know from first hand experience that they really do perform services that no one else will do. A guest worker program is the best solution I can think of with employers being responsible to make sure they have the proper credentials.

a texas sage
;->

so man of us are out of work, sanding on street corners waiting to be picked up for a days labor . . .that argument bothers me. I don't think it's true. A hungry norte americano is just as hungrey as a hungrey hispanic. . .claire

I suspect the fence will be as worthless as the previous laws they have tried. I agree that punishing employers would help. But having owned retail stores for years in Florida, I know the problems of employers first hand.. I would not hire you if you did not speak resonably good english. Fact of life.. Your customers are going to be primarily english speakers. It is a bonus if you also speak spanish, but only that.. And if your friends come into the store and you start babbling spanish to chat, you are gone.. In my last retirement store, I was also a notary.. I had huge fights with people who would come in with legal papers in spanish and expect me to notarize something that I had no idea what it said..Just last week, we were down on I-Drive in Orlando buying shoes at a discount center.. The two clerks were carrying on long discussions, not in english and simply ringing up sales, but not speaking a word of english to customers. When I got to the register, I asked if anyone in the store spoke english and of course they both insisted they did. Then I told them that if I were their manager, they would be gone for being so rude to paying customers. At least two customer had left without buying, because noone was helping them in english.. Down here in Florida, we have a lot of problems like that. On the other hand, have never been in a store with orientals that they did not speak english or at least give it their best shot.

Great to see both sides of this issue from two Texans - The thoughts are popping now - great to see us get them out on the table - some of us are a bit more wrapped up in the outcome than others however by sharing we can see where you are coming from - thank you, really thanks for sharing your concerns and feelings about this issue.

I have a friend whose family farmed in South Texas - unusual yes, they were from Finland and they farmed. At any rate, when they needed help her Dad actually knocked on doors in town to try to hire but no one would do the work and so they too found the only folks were those who came over the border. Word of mouth brought them to knock on my friend’s door till they had a regular group who came in the spring and another who came late summer and early fall.

The other issue with docking the employers is the huge number of homemakers who have day help and the many many old folks who can stay in their home only because they have a young women living with them. Then there are the many day laborers who cut our lawns, trim our trees, and dig in this hard rocky soil when we have sewage problems. These are not the laborers who build our homes or work in our restaurants or chicken factories that are more easily identified so that an employer can be fined.

Then the biggie will be the state and national government who do not want road construction to stop. Little is realized but most of our roads are built by illegals. I have been on the site where the bridge is going over the Colorado for the new interstate 30 in this area - I drove to a couple of pickups to get directions how to get out of the site and all the men in the back of both pickups scattered into the brush. The Anglos driving were very nervous and angry giving me directions. Later I learned the process - a company is given the bid and then they subcontract out 9/10ths of the work and then those subcontractors subcontract out more of the work - in order for them to see a decent profit that third level down is made up of illegals. The risk to the illegal is if the contractor is running low on cash just before the illegals are paid, the INS is called and he avoids paying them anything. - But regardless the bids for our roads could not come in so low if they did not use illegals.

I have to agree on the fence idea. There was a program on PBS a few weeks ago and two things popped up that I remember - one there are cameras [two to a pole] along the border but only half of them are working and when the call was made to the Border Patrol, they were not concerned and had no budget to replace the cameras. The other issue was several ranchers who were adamant that NO ONE was building any fence on THEIR land - they use the Rio Grand to water cattle etc. and I bet, like Sage's experience, you can hardly run a ranch without low paid skilled workers. Most Mexican people coming for work live in the rural areas where the horse and burro are the only means of transportation so their skills with animals are part of their life.

I understand the concept of breaking the law however when I look at the above links these immigration laws are only 125 years old and all seem to be in reaction to a new influx of immigrants that those in this nation found to be upset with the idea. The other thought I have with the keeping of the law is the law was more easily adhered to when there was a controlled location that Immigrants came - before the 1880s a ship came to any dock along the coast and folks walked off the ship starting their life. Ships were not that big so they were not limited to docks in places like Boston, New York, New Orleans, San Francisco - and since WWII, airports became the place of debarkation that again it was easier to control the flow of immigrants.

The problem I see is there is a 2000-mile border between Mexico and the US - take out about 600 miles that are near some major border towns and you still have over 1000 miles of raw land. Granted the northern part of Mexico is mostly desert however, when you need money for your family you will find a way to cross.

Also, I only read recently that Central and parts of South America are currently experiencing one of the worst depressions in history - so bad they liken it to our depression of the 1930s - these countries have never been able to recover since NAFTA was enacted.

I just do not think there is any free lunch - when NAFTA was enacted there was no plan to help all the nations involved use the plan to keep their economic base -

As to the illegals - the biggest concern I hear is the cost to our communities - My thought is if they received a decent wage and benefits that even our citizens are having trouble receiving than low paid workers, illegals or citizens of the US would not have to turn to free services that are funded by our tax dollars. If all workers received a similar pay the employer would see no benefit in hiring someone unless they could do the job better than another candidate for the job could.

In addition, there is no going back to the days when just a few illegals were needed to work on ranches, farm labor and girls to clean the houses, take care of the children and help the elderly stay in their own home. When that was our lifestyle we heard very little about Mexican illegals - however that is a system that to many is bedrock sacred and that is where I think the President is coming from why he does not want to crack down in the way many in the House want him to.

The ranch was 30-40 miles from town and not practical for daily commute. As a result, few to none who lived in town were willing to live there. It was not just a matter of low wages but availability. In addition, the men who came from the south were fed and housed so that they had only incidental expenses like cigarettes.

The only family I can recall living on the ranch was the family of a man who had been parolled to my father, Cyclone Ellis. This was during WWII and every evening, Cyclone would come into the house and listen intently to the war news with my father on the battery operated radio (no electricity). At the end of the broadcast, Cyclone would turn to my father and ask, "Whut'd it say, Tom?" Cyclone returned to prison for my father caught him stealing.

a texas sage
;->

Hey, Barbara... let's go back to Crawford in August. Cincy Sheehan will be there again.

a texas sage
;->

REally!! I had not heard - yes, we must...

it's been suggested that fines are considered just a cost of doing business and that they should be jailed. . . .now where would we get the livins to take care of us old ladies when we need them ? cuts both ways doesn't it. . . .claire

jeriron thanks for bringing that article to our attention - yes we have heard here on our local news about many who are afraid to leave their house, send the children to school or go after work. I also have read how there are citizens of Mexican decent who are having trouble getting back into the country after they have vacationed South of our Border.

Was it you Bev or Mary who worked with the young men from Nigeria - I wondered what kind of employment they found in their illegal status.

Annie have you had the chance to visit Ellis Island now that it is a museum?

Ellis Island...I did, yes. It is quite an amazing place.

I have a cousin working with orphaned sudanese children teadhing them to read and write in english and how to get along in our california environment. it's an after school program funded by volunteers mostly and non profit. These kids will grow up here to join the racially defined group . . .american african americans only they will have a different orientation. She gets out a news letter with some of their writings in which they describe what it was like living in and leaving their homeland. They are legal residents? some in their mid to late teens are working. I wonder. . .Claire

Found a couple of links to the Ellis Island museum -- National Park Service Ellis Island the links on the side are worth checking out.

What did you get out of your visit Annie - what was your impression of all those folks who came through Ellis Island...?

Winsom it is always an amazing thing when folks volunteer to help others - I can't help but wonder if all the anger could be focused on helping someone but then as you can see from what I have to say I am not angry and yet, I really want to understand what the anger is about since it is so real for so many.

I may not agree but at least I would like to hear and understand - is it because we are afraid our taxes will go up - or - there will be another player in the politics of this nation - or - that we are not feeling all that comfortable with our job market and we are afraid the illegals will take some jobs that our own citizens would do - or are we not comfortable with the cultural aspects of so many from one part of the world having an impact on the local culture - I am not sure and it could be a variety of reasons that are specific to each person who is upset about the illegal immigration.

In our area the Spanish illegals have a very high crime rate...armed robbery, rape, murder, domestic violence. Legal immigrants have a background check. I am more afraid to be alone now because of it. One would have to question the motives of someone that sneaks across the border in the night leaving everything behind.

Ellis Island...I remember reading the messages from the people that got sent back because of illness or shady background. I remember little toys and gifts left there in grateful appreciation of being allowed to enter. The pictures of the people from all countries. The way the visitors to the museum spoke in such hushed reverence for those that came to America. The sight of the statue of Liberty.

Great column about immigration

Great article, Bev - thanks for the link!

We were talking about this subject at our Thursday lunch group today. John reminded me of a time, about 20 years ago, when he was talking to my uncle. My aunt and uncle (now deceased) live in a county in Texas that borders the Rio Grande, just upstream from Brownsville. Their county is very poor and has a very high percentage of Mexican-Americans (as they are called there), legal and probably illegal. My uncle and John agreed that if they (John & uncle) were poor Mexicans and had any intelligence and any ambition, they would not stop trying until they could get into the US to live and work and have their children born here. It might take them more than one attempt, it might take them 10 tries...but they WOULD eventually get through.

I think that still holds true today.

We took in a Mexican girl who wanted to attend high school in the U.S. She lived with us for a year. Fortunately for her, her father (who died when she was 10) was an American citizen, so she had dual citizenship--so no problem with legality there. But she came from a very poor village in Mexico and her local minister felt she had promise and knew she would never be able to advance in Mexico.

It is my great joy and pride to say that she got a masters degree in international business, was send througfh some sort of special governmental program to Bolivia, for six months. She is now married and owns two very successful, award-winning restaurants in the Sacramento area. When I remember the scared little girl who first came to live with us, I just can't believe how successful she has become.

She eventually brought all four of her sisters to this country (they, too, had dual citizenship, of course) and all are doing very well here too, something that would not have been possible for them in Mexico.

I'm wondering if anybody here knows. There is all this brouhaha over illegal immigration and at the same time we see news reports about Americans who are "retiring to Mexico" or some other foreign country. How is that possible? How do you "retire to Mexico" and retain your U.S. citizenship? How easy is it to immigrate to Mexico? Is it just a function of how much money you have?

Bev, I would imagine it's just like retiring and moving to any other country. There's no problem with retaining your US citizenship, you just have to be accepted by the other country as a resident alien. And, as we've known from travelling overseas, Medicare doesn't work out of the US.

I guess that's what I mean--how difficult is it to become a resident alien? I know that for some countries it requires having a huge bank account.

Legal requirements to retire in Mexico

You have to come back to the US once a year, and if you have a car, register the car in the US>

a texas sage
;->

Nice site how to retire in Mexico

No wonder people retire to Mexico, if all you need is $1,000 a month. I investigated moving to Australia once, but you had to have something like $250,000 deposited in the bank in Australia first.

This may be the in your face reason for the anger on the part of some families who live on the border Illegal crossing at Yuma

Most of the people in my neighborhood were born in another country. The first thing they wish to learn is English even if immigrant children have to attend French school by law. I don't know how many illegal immigrants there are among them, but I think many.

The most visible foreigners are Muslim. It's easy to notice them because they wear their native clothing, they don't integrate with the local population and keep together which is somewhat disturbing. I went into a Muslim store one day and was made definitely unwelcome, I asked a woman clerk about a product and she didn't answer me, a man came over and he was very rough with me.

It's a common language that made the United States so powerful and even if knowing several languages is a cultural asset, having more than one official language is often a cause of conflicts. I personally think that it was the cause of economic slow down in Canada. French is my mother tongue but I made sure that all my children spoke English perfectly well to ensure them success in their career and even those of my children who have left the country or the province still speak French as if they had never left.

My daughter worked in the US for 20 years and didn't acquire an American citizenship but she has her green card. My son has lived in Switzerland for 23 years and he has remained Canadian but as an economist he is most welcomed there.

How can we tell who among illegal immigrants could become a good citizen, is the higher education the only criteria that determines that? Building a 60 mile fence will not stop the flow in my opinion.

Great discussion Barbara, I know that France has the same problems with illegal immigrants as the US has. There won't be enough border personnel to stem the flow of illegal immigrants I think.

Éloïse

I would guess I am a minority, but truthfully you could not pay me enough to retire in Mexico. We went on business several times. I could not deal with the dirt, the casual cruelty, the disregard for human feelings. We were stuck once in Mexico City airport for hours because we were bringing in computers for a trade show. We had every single permit in order, signed, sealed, etc. The guards simply refused to budge. It took hours and way too much slippery money to get in.. Terrible thing to do to business people. My question on immigration has always been.. Why do the North American countries have no problems and keep their citizens, but central and south american countries have a history of not treating their poorer citizens with any sort of dignity or chances for employment.

That's a good question, Stephanie and another good one was brought up recently on NPR: WHY are the Mexicans so desperate to get here in the first place?

There's more to that question that meets the eye and it IS the problem.

Not only could you not pay ME to retire in Mexico, I expect half of the people there would like to pay ME to take them back to the US, when I went, but why?

I thought about living there. I love the Mexican people and the food and I speak the language.

I visited with expats living in San Miguel de Allende and I found their lives unappealing to me. There are clubs and socializing consists largely of meeting for drinks. Neither of those activities appeal to me nor do I want to be that far away from family.

Perhaps if I had a partner/husband it might be different. It's a great place to visit but I don't want to live there.

a texas sage
;->

I especially like hearing the perspective of those of you who live in the southwest, or have had experiences about immigrations or emigration.

I know the situation is different today for a lot of reasons, but i think most people have no knowledge of the history of immigrants to the U.S. We frequently hear people say "my ancestors learned English and so should new immigrants." Actually that's a falsehood. The country has always had enclaves of immigrant groups who had their own churches, newspapers, theaters, etc. English is one of the more difficult languages to learn and some of us are language-challenged as others have said. The second and third generations of all immigrants eventually get to English because it's practical.

People talking to each other in their native language is often considered to be rude to those of us who don't understand them - sometimes because we think they might be talking ABOUT us - but think about if you lived in Japan and ran into someone who spoke English, wouldn't it be wonderful to talk to them in English? And i have been in stores where the clerk was having an ENGLISH conversation - on the phone, or in person - with a friend and paying no attention to the customers. We should probably be careful w/ generalizations and it's very easy to attribute the "problem" to the obvious differences.

What a difficult, complex problem - you are all so smart about it (that means you say things i agree with

)........jean

And so it starts. Did you see that some guy was killed by border patrol yesterday? And our Glorious Leader is touting this crazy wall he wants to spend a gazillion dollars on, while there are more and more tunnels being built.

There's an article in the SF Chronicle today about a woman from some African country. Her husband was killed yesterday, trying to rescue someone who was drowning. He had filled out papers to make her residency here in this country permanent, but he had not filed them at the time of his death and now she faces deportation.

I thought it interesting that in Bush's speech on immigration he said that we can't operate in an atmosphere of fear. He who brings up 9/11 and "terrorism" whenever he needs to scare someone into accepting whatever illegal thing he wants.

Yes, I agree - the expats living in San Miguel de Allende remind me of those who spend most of their afternoons on the 19th hole at the golf club. However, our company is marketing a lovely new condominium complex outside Monterey - the Condos start at $400,000 our money so this is not for those trying to save a buck and therefore, this is not for those who want to move to Mexico because living can be cheaper.

From the Mexican side I have had an experience that taught me a lot. Back 10 years ago now I went with a small group of 7 to hike deep in Mexico. Many hikers go to Copper Canyon area near Creel but we were another 150 miles south west of Copper Canyon. This guy from Lubbock had flown small planes for volunteer US Doctors and they would touch down on any field that they thought they could manage and bring some healing - He told us lots of interesting stories of people that really were living in very primitive ways isolated at the bottom of deep gorges etc.

Well at any rate we stayed in a village where the houses were dirt floors with thatched roofs - a couple of the hikes had us staying overnight in other locations. We purchased beans and rice and baby formula in Chihuahua and then traveled for another 5 hours, most of it on dirt roads. On the way we stopped and climbed first up and then down, and down, and down, to the Cerocahui's Waterfall in a deep forested area.

The family who cooked for us - the man had been a student at the Chihuahua University where students are required to spend one year teaching in these rural schools - no supplies - not even a chalk board - rough wooden desks for two - and some books - the children only go to school in summer - most walk at least 7 miles to the school room. Well he fell in love with a girl from the village and stayed - his transportation is a Bike and he teaches in 3 schools spread out 10 to 12 miles from each other. Nearby was a school that had about 30 students that was a residential school privately funded, children wore uniforms and lived there for years before going back home to their parents.

The house we stayed in this guy from Lubbock purchased from the gentleman he made friends with when he first came to this area with the Doctors. I no longer remember names and would have to go find my journals to get the names however, some things stood out for me that I will never forget.

The guy who he made friends with spent 3 years in the States with his wife to make enough money to buy some more land to run cattle and plant apple trees - he had the only house in the village with a cement floor that he poured and he built a wooden water tank for the village because he learned how. ALL these villages are built next to a creek - I learned to look for the chickens on a creek to find a village - the creek is the ONLY source of water which they drink from, wash in, wash laundry, animals drink, and ducks etc. swim in that are later eaten. This guy from Lubbock taught the folks there to boil their water - there is a fire going in the corner that has been going for years and it their only source of light and cooking heat which in the heat of the long long summer makes the adobe huts very hot.

OK the story as it affects migrants - seems most all these villages except for a few tribes have always traveled to the the big cities in Mexico to earn money - there is no money used in the villages and only if they need something from outside the village do they need money - in this area they mostly went to the orchards north of Chihuahua - after awhile the word was they could earn 5 times the money in one hour in the US than they could anywhere in Mexico.

And so migrating for temporary work has been part of the culture for over 100 years. When we hiked we found many a women alone with several children managing to bring in the crop and care for her family. This part of the world lives from crop to crop - bad weather and no or a poor crop and someone dies - literally - no fooling around here - packed on a burro we left some rice, beans and baby formula where ever we stopped.

We found folks who had only been to a town once in their lives and whose home was built into the side of mountain with sticks as the front - we stopped and helped one women with her roof who had 9 children the youngest 3 - she had not seen her husband since before the 3 year old was born because he went to get work - no mail, no phone, no way of knowing if he is dead or alive.

Only in the towns can a system of forwarding money work out - any money mailed is stolen in their post office - and in the areas we were hiking there was no way you could even walk to a town with a store or post office - the way these folks communicate with each other is on the side of the dirt road you see these various stone formations that remind you of the photos in our Boy and Girl Scout books back in the 30s and 40s.

We had a unique experience - part of what the guy from Lubbock did was take a small group down each month - the last few days of the three weeks he would go back to the areas hiked the month before - the reason - he urged us to take photos and send a copy to him after we had the photos developed - the folks had no photos of each other - we came upon one young man who opened his arms while drowning in tears - seems the photo was taken of his father the month before and the father had died and now he had a visual image of his father.

The Unique experience was we were hiking along on top of a small mountain and out of the brush comes a man on horseback with two pistols, one on each hip and two rifles, one on each side of his horse. Mustache and all we were stunned and stopped in our tracks. He ordered us, yes his tone was sharp, to wait there. We did not move and within about 5 minutes he was back with a small child, about 2 years old, on the horn of his saddle and asked if we would take a photo of him and his grandson. We were so relieved but knew not to let it show - without his grandson he looked for all the world like a movie version of a bandito.

On the way back we gave a ride to a young man hitch hiking to work the orchards - they stretch for so many miles beyond what the eye can see. This is where our fruit comes from all winter long. He was going to work there for a year or so, live in the bunkhouse - temp on that day was over 105 and typical - than you drive through the Chihuahua desert which is part of the Sonora desert till we got back to Juarez.

This trip taught me a lot - including the only Indian tribe that the Mexican government must pay if they confiscate land are the Tarahumara Indians who still live wearing their native costume and if you think it is strange to see a fellow wearing a western hat in the supermarket it is was quiet a sight to see the Tarahumara men nearly naked with their spears walking in the Towns south of Chihuahua. All to say that the people's land is not even sacred since the government can take what they think they need without compensating the tribe or the family. The push pull between Indian tribes and the Spanish culture "that takes" is still alive and well in Mexico so that nation has still much to work out that is based on the superior feeling those with Spanish blood still hold over the native people. Your place is based on how much of you is of Spanish blood.

Eloise - interesting your remark "Muslim. It's easy to notice them because they wear their native clothing, they don't integrate with the local population and keep together which is somewhat disturbing. I went into a Muslim store one day and was made definitely unwelcome, I asked a woman clerk about a product and she didn't answer me, a man came over and he was very rough with me."

A couple of things - I think it is the Muslims from the Middle East who wear their native clothing - I do not know about where you live but there are many Black folks here who choose to be Muslims yet, they do not wear scarves or tunics. And that feeling of being unwelcomed - I wonder if there is a distrust or we read people differently - I am thinking of other culture pockets where the shops are run by and catering to the cultural needs of the people... I do not see the Mexican shops unfriendly but than here Tijanos [Mexican Texans] have been a part of Texas history - then in this area we have several German, Bohemian and Czech communities - again they have been a part of this area for 100 years although they still speak their native language and hold onto their culture - especially in the Czech communities. Now I have experienced this feeling of intruding in a couple of the Asian stores I have stopped in - I wonder if it is their comfort level or that they really do not want to mix - which begs the question then why did you move to the west...?

Stephanie Hochuli hehehehe we will NOT look for you to have a Mexican address any time soon. By the way are you any relation to Ed Hochuli, national league referee?

Hahaha you too Ginny - no Mexican address for you...!

Sage all a husband would do I think is give you someone to share that daily drink with - hehehehe - I wish I could remember the name of the book now - but there was this story of a women in her 40s who traveled alone all through Mexico - she did have a scary one on the beaches of the west coast - do not remember the nearby town but she ran and escaped. Seems to me if I remember she lived in one community in Mexico for about 2 years before she took her journey.

OH Bev the only answer the government ever seems to have is to throw money at any situation that is in the news - I don't think he can win for loosing on this one - you know his heart is not in all the shut them out lock them up talk - but then he has to appease his base somehow - on this one I do not envy him and I am more forgiving of his efforts than the debacle in Iraq that he got us into.

And you are so right about initiating fear before he goes on with a solution - this mode of selling has been picked up by so many of the salesmen now - in my marketing classes years ago they told us fear does not sell and used the example of how to sell a cemetery plot - well fear seems to be selling now and used even by the guy that was teaching us how to use the latest devise we must now code in to the MLS so that others can no longer get into our system. Lots of horror stories, none of them local and yet the oows and ahhs in the room were laudable so they paid attention. I could not believe it - where is everyone's brains...!

Sage mentioned visiting a community of ex-pats in San Miguel. Sounds to me like they retire to Mexico, and spend their time just socializing with other ex-pats. They don't become part of the community where they live. I can't imagine living somewhere and being in an isolated enclave like that.

Did any of you see Mike Luckovich's editorial cartoon in today's paper? I went to his web site, and there are several listed as for today, and a number of them about the immigration issue. The one I was looking for is the third one down on the page (with the Statue of Liberty).

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/index.html

they wouldn't let me because I'm too old. My son and his wife and dog and cat live there. I can only visit. It's BC and everyone speaks english. . . although my son is beginning to sound different. . . getting a canadian accent. lol

Well what do you think of this all English plan of having an offical language and it will be English?

I'm torn with this one. I really do think that English should be the "official" language. This is not to exclude others' native languages, but that official things such as government should be conducted in English. I know English borrows a lot from other languages, and that only enriches the language for all of us. But, again, courts, legislation, schools should be in English, except for classes teaching ESL.

I was talking to my husband about this discussion last night. It's an interesting thing: we think we'd like to live here or there but we want our American rights, values, and comforts to accompany us when we do. We also want our freedom to run our mouths about the government and to criticize our elected leaders, three things many countries do not have. We can say here what we think and go home with our right hand or our tongue, it's not the same elsewhere. The more you travel and the more you get away from what we consider to be our natural rights, which we've grown up with and take for granted, to places where they don't have the same freedoms you can see quite a different perspective.

My husband's company was involved in building plants for a couple of the many companies outsourcing in South America and also in Puerto Rico, and he said that his foremen lived in enclaves near the companies in several situations for ex pats or those working in, on or for American and European companies that were incredible. Surrounded by glass studded barbed wire which kept the real natives (and the real life) out, the foremen had nannies, maids, houses of unbelievable beauty, and luxury, and all the comforts anybody could desire. You can't live your life in a bubble, however, and despite the colorful neighborhoods (when they left the enclave) they did not wish to remain. Class as a society was really prevalent there. That's good when you're in the right one, I guess. I think one reason people hope to come here as in the case of Ellis Island, which is very moving, is that the streets may not be paved with gold but there is opportunity, no matter who your mother was. It's simply NOT that way everywhere else.

Italy, for example, seems a most civilized country, I have gone there every year for the past 12 or more years. I love Italy. Yet there are no or very few handicapped facilities, no care for the steps that suddenly disappear, no concern for a person killing or injuring himself...[I take that back, I did see a sign at Cumae and Vesuvius which indicated if you fell on hard rock you'd hurt yourself]....and you might like to ask why? One very good contributing reason is that there are no lawsuits from people driving thru a McDonalds and spilling coffee on themselves because the courts and legal systems are corrupt. It can take years for one trial to get thru the courts, and the main Court in Rome, a very impressive building which takes up several city blocks, has another name from the people, because if you ever go in there apparently you don't come out. And that's just the courts and legal system. Wonderful country, wonderful people, nothing like it in the world, corrupt courts and legal system, if you go there you take your own physical care in your own hands: nobody is protecting you from your own spilled coffee.

Barbara, Ed Hochuli is my husbands second cousin. His Father is Tims cousin. That is the branch that moved to Arizona. The rest of us tend to be Easterners. All Swiss extraction of course. My mother in law had a very very good friend who retired to a small town in Mexico. She loved it, spoke reasonably good spanish and was happy for years. However she had a stroke, ended up ( no children or close relatives) in a nursing home in Mexico, where noone ever spoke English and was so miserable for the last few years of her life. She wanted my mother in law to come get her, but by that time, Mom was in the throws of Alzheimers, so no help for her. Immgration is such a thorny issue. The shooting at the border was a disgrace from my point of view, but I have a son in law enforcement who would tell you it was necessary. Who knows.

I live in a very diversified neighborhood and I believe that legal immigration is the heart of America. It's illegal immigration that I have issue with. Although semiretired, I am in a medical profession and one of the doctors I work with speaks fluent Spanish. The Spanish people tend to choose him as a result. A couple years ago I took two conversational Spanish classes to be more effective. I also believe that English should be the official language. I understand that to mean as used on signs, in courts, etc, not in speaking among friends.

I guess having grown up in San Francisco, where the signs in Chinese are part of the charm of Chinatown, I would not be wildly enthusiastic about making English the only language to be displayed or spoken "officially" in this country.

I don't know. It seems that we are spending so much time haggling over relatively unimportant things when Iran is building a nuclear device, Korea has one, and daily more American boys are being killed in Iraq, congresscritters are being indicted on criminal charges and the rights that make us the "land of the free" are being eroded. It almost seems as if this is a smoke screen to make us forget all the rest.

I meant road signs, not personal business signs. I have not forgotten the other things you mentioned Bev, but I do agree that it may be a smoke screen as that is a pretty prominent ploy...please pardon all the p words, not intentional.

Bev, you're absolutely right. I think the immigration is another one of the middirections being used to keep us from getting agitated at all the other stuff that's going on. Sorry, I know this discussion isn't about politics, but it's hard to keep it out.

A poet at heart Annie -
pretty prominent
ploy
please pardon

The Friday night news commentators on PBS seem to think it is an effort to gain some momentum with the President's Base and soon we will again be wrestling with gay rights as well for the same reason.

The problem I see is that with an official language there is sweeping opinion that goes with it. Any janitors working in schools or public buildings will not be allowed to speak in another language other than English. I can see how having ballots and official signs and even instructions on airliners etc. in English only would eliminate the extra expense of no longer having to print in two languages.

However, I am remembering as a small child, before WWII started for the US our family and most of our friends as well as where we shopped all spoke German; moreover, here I am third generation American, and if we count as they do today I would be considered 4th generation American. I remember it was up through the early 1960s that the children were taught in German in the public schools in Fredericksburg, a community 2 hours west of Austin where Admiral Nimitz grew up.

I think as some of you questioned when this conversation first started if the emphasis was only on the immigrants coming across the Southern Border - we said no, however, some folks seem to be going crazy with this problem.

Now I do agree these border towns do have a huge problem with crime and when my youngest lived in El Paso no one left their young children out in their yards, especially blond haired children, to play since there were kidnappings - Everyone of consequence, including Bank Presidents speak Spanish as their first language in El Paso. However, with Juarez across the river they finally put up a huge fence and sure enough, crime dropped dramatically. Nevertheless, to imagine El Paso operating as an English speaking community defies reason.

Ginny you are so right about the freedoms and protections we enjoy - I am not sure though that is why we have so many illegals - it appears the other western economically stronger nations are also wrestling with illegal immigration. It is a big issue in England now being debated in parliament and last year an inflaming issue in France. In addition, we hear about it in Germany and Italy. I am thinking it may be that these third world nations are going down the tube and the people are trying to get work just as we move around this nation for jobs.

Of course, France does have their official language and even has a cabinet position to keep the language pure. Somehow that seems like one of the issues that those that colonized this nation were running from - we are unique in that I do not believe there is another nation in the world with such a variety of cultures and so it seems a bit ridiculous to me to say one language is an "official" language.

Now Mary you would like to see English reserved for some of our activities as citizens like the ballot. I hear you and there is so much written about how language identifies a people. And so I wonder since our Constitution and how we are represented in this country was thought through and documented in English if we had other languages at the time if that would have altered the thinking and out come of how our Constitution was not only written but would it have affected our rights as we understand them today.

I think the other side of this would be if English becomes the official language than there needs to be a clear understanding of what that entails - how much change are we in for -

Do we stop teaching young children how to speak English who come from another culture since there is an official language and you had better hop to it?

Are having instructions for exits etc. no longer going to be shown in another language, which could endanger the life and limb of a large population in this country.

Are we going to start looking down on folks who do not speak English and how about the various Native American groups who were only beginning to reclaim their heritage by resurrecting their ancient languages.

Bev you grew up with Chinese language all around you - I wonder how many of us grew up with another language very visible in our community.

There would have been many a community in the mid-west with a predominate national flavor other than "American English" where as the one area that had been so isolated till recent years and does not have a history of other cultures is the deep South. States like, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, the Carolinas and Georgia - even Kentucky. However, Louisiana certainly has had French as a second language and here in Texas, we have large German, Bohemian and Czech communities - I do not know of the culture in Virginia to know where they fall and so I wonder if these are the states who are thinking they would prefer to establish the ground rules now. I notice one of our senators is championing the official language to be English. I often wonder though if they ever vote their heart or what is best for their state but rather they vote to support those who they later need to vote for their pet issue.

Annie you are one step closer than I am to understanding Spanish - applause - that is my next endevor..

And Stephanie - wow - your really are related by marriage - I am impressed - I know he has nothing to do with you and your life but still to be so close to someone who is nationally recognized and is written up in many a book - WOW

Yep, the gay marriage amendment is back in the hopper again.

I grew up in Houston, TX, and there was certainly a large Hispanic percentage and influence then, too. Although, I'm sure since segregation was prevalent and legal then, there wasn't as much of a presence as there is now. And I haven't lived in Houston in over 40 years.

There was an article in our paper this morning about the enormous increase in the Hispanic population of the area. The writer was included Middle and East Tennessee, Georgia, and Alabama. There are areas where the number of Latino children is increasing by 50% every year. So the "stable" population of the interior South is certainly not that any more.

I don't want to do away with all signs in other languages. As I said before, languages should grow and change with time. But, we have watched for a number of years the difficulties caused in Canada by the government's mandating two official languages. I would just hate to see the US get into that sort of situation.

(We had to laugh when we were in France...knowing about the Fr. government and their campaign of language purity. Along the freeways, when there was a message that they really wanted all drivers to know, the signs were in French, German, and English. And the red octagonal signs that appear at some intersections did not say "ARRETE". They said "STOP".

)

How about those folks in Louisiana? Brooklyites? And those folks in Appalachia? New Hampshire? Maine? Texans? .......

You get my point.....imagine how tough those sounds/words/idioms are for non-English speaking people to understand.......jean

I do agree that it may be a smoke screen as that is a pretty prominent ploy

I loved it that when GW gave his speech on immigration he said that we should not act in an atmosphere of fear. He who says "9/11" and "terrorist" whenever he gets his hand caught in the cookie jar.

And yes, the gay marriage ammendment is back again--another smoke screen. Get the whole country het up (no pun intended, though now that I think of it, it's a good one!) about things that are really not injurious to us, and we'll forget that the schools are going to hell in a handbasket, the highways are falling apart, a great percentage of the population has no health care, we have a debt in the trillions of dollars, only 29% of the country approves of the President's performance, and we are still bringing home too many dead and physically and emotionally damaged young men.

But gay marriage is going to ruin this country and English needs to be the official national language.

Give me a break.

Well the Senate changed it again and now it is "the" common and unifying language - whatever that means... oh dear... there are so many sides to this issue that it is like going after a greased pig in a fair...

I wonder if anyone realized the huge number of service personal that are Mexican... I think and someone with a better handle on this please correct me if I am wrong - as I understand anyone who serves in the armed forces automatically becomes a citizen when they have done their tour of duty and are being released from the service.

In addition, have you noticed the large number of Hispanics who were killed in Iraq - I watch the photos at the end of the Lehrer NewsHour and still tear up with the nineteen year old and those in their 40s who you know are leaving behind a family with high school age kids but I have noticed the large number of Hispanic names - could be an economic decision or it could be patriotism.

so he doesn't know that he's said we shouldn't be fearful, or that he says "9/11" and "we're at war w/ terrorists" in every speech he gives.

Many of our military personnel are from many countries other than the U.S. There are numbers of people from the Philippines and people from all the Caribbean Islands as well as Mexico. Yes, the Hispanics and African-Americans are fighting this war for us. Maybe that is why GW is fighting so hard for his immigrant bill, maybe there is a little compassion in the conservative after all. .......jean

I am not sure if you are illegal if you can go in the armed forces, but I do know that if you serve in the army, etc, you used to be able to become a citizen and skip the long line. We had a swiss friend who was in the army when my husband was and that is why Jean served. When our founding fathers wrote the constitution, there were many languages floating around. My ancestors from the 1600's were a mixture of Dutch, German and English and I know that in upstate New York in some areas, dutch and german were spoken for years at home. When I was a tiny girl, my parents were lutheran and the church they attended did every other Sunday in German. All immigrants have problems with English.. But they all struggled with it, since if you want to get ahead in America, it is best to be fluent in English. Many illegals from Mexico really believe they are only here for the money and have no intention of learning or speaking English. Sad really, since they all believe they will go home in a few years and it just doesnt happen.

It's absolutely true, Jean. The administration's answer to anything is "9/11" and/or "the war on terrorism". It's a classic case of misdirection - just keep people thinking about those things and they won't demand answers and solutions for real problems.

mabel by any chance is the cartoon on the internet that we could see it that way? I quit getting the newspaper a few years ago - I hated to see them piling up without ever being read - no longer have time to spend a half hour or so pouring over the newspaper each morning - for a long time I just picked up the Sunday paper but now I find my commentators on the Internet and have added my name to a free look at a few newspapers that have more of a reputation nationally than the local paper.

Stephanie there was so much more German spoken when I was a child as well - in churches and schools and and and - I think the shame over the camps and Hitler affected the German community so they pulled back and became more American/English speaking. I know just before we entered the war our family had an experience that the decision was made no longer to speak German.

My grandmother belonged to a German Club [she was a widow and this was an afternoon's source of entertainment once a week] I had turned 6 that winter and this was late spring - She stopped at our house all upset something about hailing Hitler which I had no idea what that meant - she an Mom were going on and on over tea in the Kitchen and finally my Dad came home - usually on Sunday nights we all went to the Beergarten including my Aunt and Uncle, cousins and of course Grandma.

My father was often the one they asked to tap and new keg since his family used to deliver the beer and he knew how without causing it to froth. My Uncle [from the Italian part of Switzerland and spoke several languages] played the violin and often during breaks used one of the musicians violins to play more dance music. We kids would sip beer from our parents glasses that had been filled from huge glass pitchers and of course the big pretzels were at every table. Great memories even as a kid - it was a treat for everyone.

When my father came home and heard grandma's story and seeing her so upset he suggested we all go to the Beergarten - it was a long walk with my sister who was 3 on his shoulders and lots of chatter as we walked. We got about a block away and the side of the building that held the restaurant were all marked up in large swatzstickers and other graffiti and the windows were all smashed. We all stopped in our tracks in silence in this lovely balmy evening turning dark. We stared then without a word turned and started to walk home. I could only hear our footsteps till after a bit my mother said, "Mom, no more German." That was the only thing said all the way home and from then on, except when Grandma got upset or excited, there was no more German.

After we got a telephone Grandma would call and if she was upset about something she would slip, and right away Mom would remind her to speak in English - of course they were sure someone could eavesdrop on their conversation and during this time real live operators hooked you up to your desired phone number so they were probably correct.

Looking at the link in the heading it appears where there was a large German migration to the US it cannot compare to the numbers of those from South of the Border that are currently swelling our population. But it also appears from the history of immigration law whenever there was a large immigration from one nation laws were enacted in response to an outraged public.

When I was a small kid I remember visiting family and in their area it was common to see signs in store and restaurant windows, "No Irish" or "No work for Irish"

When you hear the speeches yes, 9/11 and fear is the overall message. And yet there is this article that rings true that cements for me that I know the speeches are not written by him - on this one he is between the frypan and the fire and this is one time when I can understand his dilemma - and I see that he actually has a dilemma where some of his other actions are just plain bull headed to me - For President Bush, immigration isn't a dry policy debate.

MABEL: Thanks for mentioning the Doonesbury cartoon. Click HERE to find it on the net. It is just great.

ah hahahahaha - oh wonderful...! Thanks for the link Marjorie...

Interesting tidbit about German immigration: John's family immigrated from Germany during the 1840s. Legend has it they got on the wrong side of the Chancellor at the time. Anyhow, his grandfather told him that they had come in through the port of New Orleans. This was a surprise because we always think of all immigration as coming through Ellis Island.

Anyhow, there was regular trade between New Orleans and Hamburg - the ships carrying cotton from NO to Germany, and Germans from Germany to the US. As river travel was the easiest way, perhaps the only way, to get to the good 'western' farmland, the new immigrants traveled up the Mississippi and its tributaries (Ohio, Missouri, Tennessee, Cumberland, etc.). That's why every city of any size along these rivers has a Germantown section, and why there is so much German culture there.

Mary when the Germans came and even when the Irish came there was no Ellis Island - a ship pulled up to whatever dock was big enough to handle the size of the ship and everyone unloaded - what became so horrendous was the number of Irish families that were separated onto different ships and there are stories of Irish children living on the docks for years waiting for their parent who they thought would land at the same port.

And yes, New Orleans is where the large German population in Texas landed - as well as later some landed in Galvastan.

There was an attempted revolution in Germany in 1848 that was led by the middle and working classes - they were after a unified Germany and a constitution that would give them the kind of rights that they saw France and the US achieve. There was a crop failure for a few years before 1848 and so the ground was set in anger and frustration for the people to riot. The King of Prussia pulled the wool over their eyes saying he was going to do this and that and another riot - it took them so long to get an agreement with the 19 separate kingdoms and other issues that von Bismarck and the generals regained power in Berlin and the Prussian King Wilhelm became the Kaiser.

Many Germans who had hoped for the success of the German Revolution did not want to return to their life under the restored authoritarian regimes and chose to emigrate to the US. That is when there was the flood of German immigrants - German was the language used in the Socialist Labor Party. They brought the art of beer brewing which became monopolized by Germans – Pabst, Schlitz, Blatz and Miller - The first American kindergarten was founded in 1856 by a German immigrant.

If anything the current wave of immigrants from South of our Border could reinstate the family as the center of our world again but it will be interesting to see what impact their culture will bring to this nation.

Great article Give and take across the border 1 in 7 Mexican workers migrate. as I read it the thought struck me that if we are contributing so much to the Mexican economy at least we are getting labor for our money where as most nations receiving aid from the US receive it as a gift with hopes of a change in that nation.

And our industry here in our area was moved to Pueblo, Mexico -- leaving 1600 people out of work.

That's a great U.S. history story. So much of what everyone tells on SN are great pieces of our history.

Wasn't NAFTA supposed to help everyone around the world? Lied to again, eh?

I just heard on CNN about 3 Nigerians who stole millions of dollars from a bank in Texas thru identity theft. That's not an indictment of all Nigerians, but again a statement that you all have been making that we have more to be concerned about than illegal aliens from Mexico........jean

And hit the wrong button and lost everything

Barbara you chose a HOT subject as with most there are no easy answers, My only feeling , first this was allowed to happen for too many years The persons who benefitted most where the employers of the illegals. And ALL of congress sat on their hands and did nothing Because in my opinion they were allowing the companies to hire them. It was cheaper and more profitable since many benefits were not paid including SS etc.

Your description of your visit in Mexico Barbara was so chilling ..It is obvious that Mexico benefits by the whole thing since billions of dollars are sent there from here. And no taxes paid to us for those dollars. I have a friend who lives in California and talk to her all the time She says there is a real fear that in will end with a revolution. Does anyone see that?

And while we decry the history of America ie taking over land that was settled by the Indians and disinfranchising them Our history is no different than the history of the world. EVERY country has been invaded , some successfully and some not so much but at least we did give an opportunity for those who had to leave their countries to survive to come and be part of our history. My grandparents came from Ireland in the potato famine and if you have ever read The Great Hunger written about that time from some one who lived through it then you can see why Ireland and England see it differently And Ireland itself was invaded first by the Norse and then by the Normans In fact when I mentioned to an Irish person who lives in Ireland my grandmothers maiden they snorted and said THAT WASNT IRISH that was Norman and seem to imply she wasnt Irish at all. And the motto ThE SUN NEVER SETS ON BRITAIN meant that the English had taken over a greater part of the world at one time. So I cant be too upset by what happened here .. and if we live long enough we will see similiar things happen in the future >But now we need to see what to do about the situation we are in,. When I read about handbags selling for 5,000 dollars and a simple a-line skirt for hundreds anyone reading that and knowing some are buying them you would get the impression America is nothing but wealthy people who have nowhere else to spend thier money .In fact many legal Americans live a hand to mouth existence>The auto makeers , the oil companies destroyed a great nation wide transportation system that allowed people in the inner cities to find employment along the routes. I know I am far afield here but to me all of this has contributed to the problems we face now.

anyway thanks Barbara for this discussion You did good ..anna

Barbara, "But they all struggled with it, since if you want to get ahead in America, it is best to be fluent in English". How true that is and to acquire fluency in English I decided at 14 that I was going to concentrate all my efforts towards that goal, the public school system was totally inadequate in that respect and for the most part even now. Outside of Montreal and environs, many people don't speak English at all in Quebec. Half of Quebec's population lives in the Montreal area. New immigrants children arriving in Quebec have to attend French school by law.

Our two official languages policy in Canada creates tension, it's true but what doesn't and since Quebec has enforced such strict language laws, all of Canada has benefited from the study and practice of two languages, sometimes reluctantly but after becoming fluent in a second language, they really enjoy it. Our Prime Minister who is an Anglophone from Western Canada is criticized for using French first when he is questioned by the press but he comments on how much he likes to express himself in French

Canada was a French colony before it was conquered by England and either for benevolence, or necessity they left the French population their language and their religion.

All our Canadian former Prime Ministers spoke both languages and it is easy to see the benefits of that dealing internationally. It is appalling to see that the whole world should know English, especially in peace negotiations. It looks like English will eventually become the universal language.

On English.. It depends a lot of what you do. We have a dear friend who is a mathematician.. He says their universal language is German..Because of the scientific breakthrews.. My cousin who is a CPA lectures all over the world, always in English, because that is a universal financial language. I know when we visit Canada, it certainly depends on where you are.. Quebec and Montreal.. a lot of french speakers, but Vancouver.. You rarely even see signs in French.. If you live in Miami, you had better speak Spanish and cuban spanish at that. That is surprising to me in that I am told that the type of spanish depends on where you live and is quite distinctive.

I heard an interesting statistic yesterday--across the country only TWENTY percent of illegal immigrants are from Mexico. Those of us in the border states probably have a warped view of it.

There was a 16 year old guy on a radio talk show who was livid about illegal Mexican immigrants, except he seemed to have the idea that ALL brown skinned people were illegal immigrants from Mexico. He said that he had been to WallMart and that he could hardly move because of all of "them" and that when "they" start to outnumber "us" something had to be done. It was pretty scary listening to the vitriolic tone in his voice.

Now that is scary I think either a law is a law or it isnt and if it is that it should be obeyed. If we are asked to excuse one law that what keeps us from saying all laws should be excused if enough people want it that way. As I said Where were the politician all these years ignoring the proper way to become a citizen? We dont get millions of illegals over night ...but I hate to see everyone disliked because some one suspects they are here illegally . That is not fair .....My one brother married a lovely Japanese lady thier children are a mix One looke very very Japanese ( although her face reminds me of an Irish aunt) one could be either and one looks so American that her little girl who looks like a Japanese Doll people cant believe she is the mother.

To me this is not what color they are IF THEY ARE ILLEGAL and havent gone through the proper procedure., are not paying taxes, are trying to hide because they are illegal than that makes a difference. My neighborhood is a mix of just about any nationality and color we have here in America and we all get along but I hate to think someone who has waited to come here and complied with all the rules etc cant come because someone is illegally taking their place.

Just my thinking but again if we didnt have the suspicion that someone might be illegal because only legals were here then those who would judge people by color or ethnic background wouldnt have a leg to stand on.

And I dont see this being resolved anytime soon.anna

The problem is so multi-faceted I don't know that there is any "easy" solution at all.

But it sure is keeping us from thinking about all the corruption going on in the current administration, isn't it?

is doing just that. making all darker skinned people into mexicans and illegals. racism continues. . .it seems to be built in to our system We have to blame some one for whatever reason when things go wrong. . .disgusting isn't it. . . .claire

Marjorie, I am not seeing a Doonesbury cartoon from your link? I AM seeing ArcaMax and am playing one of the games now, neato site, have I misssed something?

GINNY: The previous link showed the cartoon of the day and that was two days ago. HERE is the Doonesbury for May 21.

Sorry folks had to take yesterday and devote it to my family - my son-in-law's Dad died. He was a well loved man in a small town where nearly half the town is related to him and my son-in-law - the memorial rather than flowers was a donation for a marble bench to be placed on mainstreet near the store that Gary's Dad owned and where daily his Dad sat visiting, even with the town drunk who came to the funeral in tears.

The stories of his relationship with so many people is poignent and for a man with only a 6th grade education he achieved so much - Norman was a WWII Vet, a Mason, and he made sure his son, Gary attended College, as well as took care of his young brother, [after their mother died at 102 four years ago] who was born mentally handicapped. This man was a wonderful friend and role model for both my grandsons and with so much expected, [Gary is an only child] the calls to me were frequent all day as they needed a touchstone to keep going.

I quick read the posts early and have been researching like crazy this morning - the issue of law struck me and I had loads of questions. This is when I wish I had more knowledge of the Law however, some of this is simply thinking it through -

It occurred to me that legally until we go to international law there is no way we can create a law that affects folks from another country. Once they are within our borders we can use our laws but there is no law we can make that affects them before they enter this country.

Also, any law we have on the books must be enforced. If we cannot enforce controlling our borders than we cannot suggest a new law will do any more than the laws currently on the books.

Then I looked up the Constitution to see who can do what - Article I section 8 it says Congress;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
IN Section 9 it says:
The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.
And then in Section 10 it says:
No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.
No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.

And so an individual State cannot add to its coffers in order to take care of any additional cost of caring for the many who enter this country using that State as their entry point.

Then I looked for information about International Law - this site seems to be one of the better sites International Law menu

First up these quote from the link caught my attention

"Public International Law, concerns itself only with questions of rights between several nations or nations and the citizens or subjects of other nations.
In contrast, Private International Law deals with controversies between private persons, natural or juridical, arising out of situations having significant relationship to more than one nation. In recent years the line between public and private international law have became increasingly uncertain.
Issues of private international law may also implicate issues of public international law, and many matters of private international law nave substantial significance for the international community of nations...
International Law is rooted in acceptance by the nation states which constitute the system."

Hmmm so we must have the nation state accepting the system - the more I read this is not where relief is going to come from - it sounds more and more to me that the way around this is to have a treaty with Mexico - I thought of another area to research - Piracy... sure it was a big issue addressed in the Constitution before the idea of crossing miles of desert by millions of people was ever considered much less our nation in 1791 did not include those lands where the crossings take place.

Under International Law it says in this Wikipedia article

Since piracy often takes place outside the territorial waters of any state, the prosecution of pirates by sovereign states represents a complex legal situation.
The prosecution of pirates on the high seas contravenes the conventional freedom of the high seas. However, as jus cogens, jurisdiction can nevertheless typically be exercised against pirates without objection from the flag state of the pirate vessel.
This represents an exception to the principle extra territorium jus dicenti impune non paretur (the judgment of one who is exceeding his territorial jurisdiction may be disobeyed with impunity)."

As long as I was in Wikipedia I decided to look up Illegal immigration A few sentences pop out --

"Many countries have or had laws restricting immigration for economic or political reasons...
Most countries also have laws requiring workers to have proper documentation, often intended to prevent the employment of illegal immigrants. However the penalties against employers are not always enforced consistently and fairly, which means that employers can easily use illegal immigrant labor...
In response to the outcry following popular knowledge of the Holocaust, the newly-established U.N. held an international conference on refugees, where it was decided that refugees (legally defined to be people who are persecuted in their original country and then enter another country seeking safety) should be exempted from immigration laws, however it is up to the countries involved to decide if a particular immigrant is a refugee or not, and hence whether they are subject to the immigration controls.

All and all the more I read it appears the solution is a treaty with Mexico is about our only legal solution. Can Congress put together a Treaty or does that take the office of the Presidency to get off the ground.

Further when I read this I became more aware of the difficulty we have creating a treaty with Mexico.

Scrolling down this really caught my eye - first let me preface - we know that the numbers of illegals sent back each year are a drop in the bucket compared to the numbers who are never caught.

An average of 10,000 illegal aliens cross the border every day - over 3 million per year. A third will be caught and many of them immediately will try again. About half of those remaining will become permanent U.S. residents (3,500 per day). From Economic and social costs of illegal immigration

Well further down on the Wikipedia page it says: "Mexico has accepted large numbers of immigrants during wars such as World War I (Germany, Yugoslavia, Poland, etc.); the Spanish Civil War and exiles form the South American and Central American dictatorships. It has also received those who are fleeing their native areas for religious persecution such as the Russian Molokans and Christian Lebanese and Mennonites.

However, in the last decades, Mexico has received illegal immigrants as the result of civil war in Central America, many of whom attempt to eventually cross the US border illegally. Some of the immigrants are members of the Mara Salvatrucha, a criminal organization whose members have terrorized various places in Mexico, and in the States have currently extended their activities as far north as Washington, DC. It is said that the U.S. is pressuring Mexico and paying for the deportation of Central American origin.

In the first eight months of 2005 alone, more than 120,000 people from Central America have been deported to their countries of origin. This is a significantly higher percentage than in 2002, when for the entire year, only 130,000 people were deported."

Well if we only send back a third I doubt that Mexico has any better statistics - since we were involved in continuing the wars in Central America since the 1980s under the misguided adventure we could bring our form of Democracy to Central America as well as we had the whole War on Drugs hitting the area, I am wondering if the expense to Mexico of deporting thousands back to Central America because of our activities in Central America does President Fox quietly see Mexican's crossing our Border as our just desserts.

No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.

Does this mean California can legally refuse to support the war in Iraq?

We support states that have to help those who have suffered natural disasters. why not those who have to support the influx of needy immigrants. legal or otherwise we do it. their children go to school, they get health care and they live in fear of being captured and sent back away from their children who if born here are citizens. There is something wrong with our laws . . .at lease for this time in history, they don't fit. . .Claire

Bev I think it means that a State cannot declare war on its own -

Claire I think you are right on - although I wonder if it is our laws or our inability to enforce our laws that is the problem. We do have immigration laws but they are dependent on coming through a port of entry - crossing a defenseless border we are talking either smuggling or piracy law of which from everything I am reading incorporates International Law.

I noticed this morning on the BBC news they are saying the same thing in Britain, that the laws are inadequate for their illegal immigrant problem.

Bev I think it means that a State cannot declare war on its own

Well, it wasn't really a serious question, but one can always hope.

Did you know that anyone can post anything in Wikipedia...it's not really fact, but opinions.

Annie I believe there is a board now that will pull anything that is incorrect - Wikipedia is a way to get information that in this case was not controversial - I like Wikipedia because it is easy to read and the descriptions link to deeper information on the subject however, there are many other web sites that offer the same information -

Annie is there something that has been printed here from Wikipedia that you disagree with? If you have other information please add it to our accumulation of knowledge on the law.

Wikopedia bothers me because a good deal of it is simply..I know that.. it may or may not be true. I am a genealogist and I know how hard I work to make sure that I have documented evidence and secondary proofs.. Wikopedia does not see to.

Yes Wikipedia has some outright incorrect information on it, so I don't trust it but it IS fast, you have to take it with a considerable grain of salt. Anybody can say anything on Wikipedia, or for that matter, on the internet, too, any of us can start our own professional looking sites and say the most outrageous things and then we'll be quoted as sources, and rumor volat, you need to be careful. Wikipedia seems to have some sort of review board but it also seems to take them years to correct misinformation, I don't like that either.

Yesterday's USA Today quoted last years Immigration figures, they were well over 1 million people. If you saw that perfectly hideous program on the atrocities in the Congo last night you'd want to bring more. How could we turn them away? How many can we reasonably accept, do you think? IS there a limit?

If you saw that perfectly hideous program on the atrocities in the Congo last night you'd want to bring more. How could we turn them away? How many can we reasonably accept, do you think? IS there a limit?

Excellent question. Given what we know now about the Holocaust, would we have brought in as many Jews as we could have to save them, and damn the immigration process?

Bev, evidently not, since the United States was one of many nations that turned away a boatload of Jews (the Captain of the boat desparately tried everywhere he could) that eventually was returned to the the Nazis.

OK last thing I will say - I do hate it when we give a blanket opinion - this is how Wikipedia handles Accuracy disputes but more helpful I think is this BBC report The free online resource Wikipedia is about as accurate on science as the Encyclopedia Britannica, a study shows.

I think if our research is ONLY using one source then we are in trouble however, often our research includes sources numbering in the teens and a choice needs to be made as to which one will be clear, encompass the most information, without our listing six or more sites in our post and the site offers an opportunity for those reading to research further.

We may agree to disagree on the use of Wikipedia here and that is OK with me - I do not like to eliminate a good effort, especially one that proved to be about as accurate as our old stalwart Britannica.

Hehehehe I guess we are all contributing our information which makes our posts subject to be dismissed - oh dear - I guess we have to decide if folks have such little to do that they will contribute bogus information that they do not even receive credit for just to confuse us - I am smiling here but seriously I do think most folks are giving us their best effort which to me is a start on finding out more than I would know without benefit of their best effort.

Publishers, University educators, Researches, Scientists have all been cited for making errors - I just do not think we can turn to one source for perfect information however, in the name of brevity I think we can show a start towards our understanding by linking a source. If we prefer a different source than we as readers can always read further in our favorite source without knocking a good effort.

I do hope we are not creating a hierarchy of Censorship here on Seniornet so that we limit our information gathering to an approved list - and if we are than I think we need to have the benefit of what web sites are on that approved list.

Again, if anyone sees errors in the articles included on this subject of Law and our Constitution please share - really we will all benefit by your input - and we will be so pleased to have the better information linked to add to our information that helps us better understand the difficult issues surrounding immigration.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what the government does for the people of the Congo - reading this article things popped out - like you must obtain a visa and for those in the Congo the distance to the Embassy posses a problem - and then of course the cost of flying out... I cannot find anything that says we have any organization in place that is covering these costs - AND when you read what has happened to this one man who has been tortured it is easy to see the road to enter the US is not easy --

In addition, this quote from the article in Magazine Z caught my attention and reminded me of the old saying - "who are you walling in and who are you walling out when you build a wall." These days of insecurity make wall building seem protective till we bump into times when we have made our wall of security a stumbling block to extending our humanity. I have no idea the answer.

The quote - "With the passage of the 2001 USA PATRIOT Act, the definition of "terrorist activity" has been broadened and the grounds for inadmissibility have been expanded. While the great majority of asylum seekers are genuine victims of repressive regimes, some of them still run the risk of being associated with radical elements and falsely identified as enemies of the state. For those particular individuals, setting foot on U.S. soil may prove more dangerous than they realize."

My thinking about the Congo - not my feeling - my thinking - is we really do not have a good understanding of what is the issues - I guess I cannot imagine this simply being tribal warfare - but then we have tribal warfare in Iraq so maybe - however, why now - unless this has happened in the Congo's earlier history and because there were no journalists in the area we were ignorant of the situation - or is this something that is occurring because of the division of land that is making these Nations - I am reading that some of this is the outcome of colonial rule - what about colonial rule that made the outcome into this atrocity - how did these different tribes coexist before colonial rule and how long ago was that in their history.

Do any of you know anything about the history of this area and how it leads to what we are seeing unfold before our eyes thanks to TV. From everything in the news it appears that our governments effort is about aid and helping establish a fair peace rather than picking these folks up and bringing them to a safer place in the world.

Do any of you know anything about the history of this area and how it leads to what we are seeing unfold before our eyes thanks to TV.

I don't know anything about the history of this area, but I remember when we had a man from what was then Zaire and is now Congo living with us. He was helping my husband do some wood working in the carport one night and we have a noise ordinance which prevents you from making loud noise after 10 p.m. Walt had one more cut to make and ran the saw for about 10 seconds at 10:05 (more or less) and by 10:10 there was a police car in the driveway (we are not loved by our neighbors). Victor, the man from Zaire, totally panicked and tried to run away. He explained later that in his country, if the police came to your house, it was to kill you.

Later, there were riots in Zaire and I suspect all of his family was killed because they were right in the thick of things.

No, I don't disagree with the Wikipedia article. Just that I know it's more opinion and the facts are not always verified. I use Wikipedia myself. As for the Congo, etc, that's what happens in extreme poverity. I think as Americans we could do with a lot less and be healthier. I think that is different than giving away our country. I think going to other countries with supplies and knowledge such as medical clinics and tools is the answer, not saying come on in we've got plenty of room...the fact is we don't.

Oh my Bev - how frightening for your guest - it sounds like you were not able to continue to communicate with him - how did he come to live with you?

Annie we were posting at the same time - I agree, helping with aid seems to be the answer and yet, I wonder why there have been no UN forces sent to protect those who must go out for wood etc and risk their life or the risk to girls of being raped. The gentlemen from Sweden seems to be the most responsible and yet it seems to me they kicked him out for awhile. I really need to read up on this...

As far as I know, he is still in this country. He lived with us for six months, while he learned English and tried to find a way to bring his family over here. His cousin had come to live with us through an exchange program and just never returned to Zaire. I never asked what his immigration status was after he was no longer on the program. He (the cousin) was trying to help his family in Zaire come here to save them.

The last time I saw Victor (the guy who was afraid of the police), he turned up out of nowhere the day of our son's funeral. He and David had a special bond when he lived here and he was distraught when he learned of David's death. He left at some point during the reception after the funeral and we haven't heard from him since. I have no idea where he is living or what he is doing--and things were too confused at that time to get that information.

In participating in this discussion, I have come to find out that my feelings regarding the Mexican illigals are quite different than those from other countries.

Bev I found your web site the other day and read the pages you have on your two sons who have died - I was interested since my son died just before Christmas although he was older than either of your sons. I am surprised and had not noticed till Peter died how many have experienced the loss of a child - did you go through a stage of regrets - things you wished you did with or for your sons. That is a part of grief I do not see spoken about and yet, I am hearing from other Moms that was their experience. It has taken me about 4 months to realize these are my regrets and may not have been seen as lost opportunities to my son.

I know off the subject and yet, to me, the loss we feel for a child is part of the loss some are feeling for the way the country was before this huge influx of immigrants and when we thought, we were the compassionate people of the world. And now to have to face the fact that there were times when we did not act with compassion to those in desperate need is a loss we feel. Maybe we all just need to be humbled to realize we do the best we can and we have higher expectations of ourselves than is possible to act on and that is why desperate people attempt to take their situation into their own hands.

Annie are you saying you have more compassion for those immigrants from other nations regardless legal or not than you do for those streaming across our southern border? I think that is what you are saying but I wanted to be clear...

If so what do you think is the difference that makes you feel one way for one group and another way for the other group.

I think it was Sun who also did not like the illegal immigration - she only posted twice - really it would be so great if you would explain what you views are - we are sharing our views and we really want to hear both sides - that is the only way we will learn why some are wanting certain solutions that make sense to them and yet to some of us we can only scratch our heads. Please help us by telling us what you see that we are not seeing.

I am surprised and had not noticed till Peter died how many have experienced the loss of a child

I'm so sorry for your loss, Barbara. I know how much you are hurting. I think people who lose those they love around the holidays have such a difficult time. Re "how many have experienced the loss of a child," I think we have heightened awareness. It's like when you are pregnant, suddenly it seems like EVERYONE is pregnant. And yes, I noticed the same thing--I hadn't paid attention before to how many people had lost children.

did you go through a stage of regrets - things you wished you did with or for your sons.

Yes and no. It's a very strange thing. On some level, I knew that David was not going to live a long life--he as much as told me that three years before he died. It wasn't that he was suicidal; he just had a feeling that he wouldn't live long. And for Paul, I was afraid for years that he would commit suicide some day. The coroner says he did, everyone who knows him said he didin't, so we will never know--but again, one some level I was "expecting" his death.

The reason I say that is because I guess I lived life with the expectation that I could lose them. I never felt that there were things left unsaid between us. One some level there was relief, just because of all five kids, those were the two that I worried about losing. Once I began to pass through the work of grief, I began to realize that if there is anything positive about losing them, it's that I also lost the worry that I was going to lose them.

The most difficult thing for me is that these were the two kids that I was the closest to, the two kids I would have long late-night philosophical discussions with, the kids who would call me just to say hi. I have a good relationship with the other kids, but we don't have that kind of a relationship and it leaves a huge hole in my life having them gone. But because we had all those long philosophical discussions, I understand their loss better than I might have understood losing any of the other three.

I don't know if that answers your question or not. It's a horrible journey to have to go through, this journey through grief. And when it is your child you are grieving, the journey is so much more painful. Give yourself permission to do whatever you need to do to grieve his loss and be gentle with yourself.

Hugs.

I think going to other countries with supplies and knowledge such as medical clinics and tools is the answer

The one thing we need to do is to offer/supply these things unconditionally. We offer medical help for women in Third World countries, but refuse to finance clinics that give birth control information. We will give medical assistance for AIDS, but not if it involves giving condoms away or talking about condoms. Formula companies give assistance for babies, but don't teach about breastfeeding and send mothers home with the "advanced" formula which they then mix with contaminated water.

We give assistance with a hook--and that is not help, in my book.

I've not thought very often about that in connection with my two. boy and girl. What led you to believe that these two out of five were so vulnerable. . .or is that too private a question. just wondering. . .claire

I think the difference for me is the life and death situation isn't really an issue with the Mexican illegals. I see them (I know it's a terrible generalization) as drug pushers and thiefs. As far as tools and clinics...I sure don't mean coming from our government. The hospital I work at has gathered a group of clinical people headed by a doctor every three months and gone to Haiti for ten days. The parents of the young soldier that was recently killed in Iraq have collected thousands of pairs of shoes for the people there and are shipping them at their expense. A couple examples. I think I've gotten off topic, sorry.

My sympathy in your loss, Barbara.

I am not sure which blanket opinion you are saying you dislike but Wikipedia does have specific information which is not true in it? And the considerable list of errors you cited makes this point on those noticed. I have seen some pages still in dispute quite a long time later, still going on. It's good that the BBC finds the science part of it accurate, but there are other areas with errors as well.

I think in the end you had the best idea: don't put all your research eggs in one basket, and I would add use sources that have a provenance you can trust.

I see them (I know it's a terrible generalization) as drug pushers and thiefs.

I'm glad that at least you admit this is a gross generalization, and an unfair assessment of the hard-working Mexicans who have come to this country looking for a better life. They may not have been escaping a tyrannical government, but poverty is a strong motivator.

I think those of us who have known Mexicans have a different picture Bev -

I am not sure where you live Annie but I wonder if the news you read and see on the TV is giving you the impression that most illegals are drug pushers and criminals. I can see if that is your impression then how scary it would be to think we have 11 million illegal drug pushers and criminals in this country or, even if you think there is a large portion but maybe not all 11 million.

Since I do not have a close contact with folks from the Middle East, I have my opinions that are not always very positive - maybe that is the difference for all of us - when we know some of the people we have a different impression and do not see the worst in the entire national group.

However, it seems to me that among the poor in most cities is where we find the drug pushers and criminals - now that could be another whole discussion - our opinions of the poor, how they live, and why they are poor - however, most new immigrants start off poor therefore, it is reasonable there would be more criminals among any immigrant group that is starting out.

Seems to me earlier in this discussion we had someone from California who shared that the Asians in her area were the criminal element. Here in Austin, the Asian community is not poor, most are the families of UT students and so there does not seem to be much criminal activity in neighborhoods where a good number of Asians are living.

You may have hit on something Annie - I was coming to that conclusion last winter that we are not so much racist as we are class conscious and we do not like, we are afraid of and we would like to eliminate from our cities the poor regardless of color and race. Seems like seeing so many poor Mexican families is adding to the impression they are all criminals.

Won't try to change your mind because no matter what any of us said I think that until you are acquainted with a Mexican family and their culture it would be hard for you to change your opinion.

For me I know one Indian family and they own a computer store here as well as I helped them with some Real Estate and so I am comfortable and see that each person I meet who is from India has a different personality. I no longer assume all Indians are a certain way. However, I have not had that experience with a Muslim family and so I am leery since I read about the role of woman and I see the blood baths of Tribalism. Both of which to me are examples of medieval thinking and have no place in the 21st century.

I've known more people who have come here from Latin America, sometimes legally, and most times not. I have lived with them, worked with them, and not one of the many that I've known was a drug pusher or even drug user (with the exception of alcohol) nor did they ever steal from me.

I can promise you that they have worked harder than any Anglo that I have EVER employed and most of them have sweet dispositions. We fear what we don't know. I helped a man get his papers and he lived in a trailor on my property. I never locked a door nor had a moment's fear.

I've picked up laborers at those locations where they are available for work with no problems.

a texas sage
;->

that THOSE PEOPLE. . . .my mother's phrase were somehow inferior to MY PEOPLE meaning white as opposed to colored. I knew there was something wrong with that. In fact most of my mother's values had something wrong with them so I turned to my DAD who was an active member of the Jewish community's effort to fight antisemetism and learned what did make sense to me that there will always be people who make up for their own feelings of inadequacy by finding fault with others. I'm now hard wired to think that we should evaluate the trustworthiness of individuals by their behavior and not by the group to which they happen to belong. To do otherwise is dangerous . . .we can always be thought of as THOSE PEOPLE by the very people we might choose to hate. and treated accordingly. Doesn't the golden rule apply here? . . claire

about the curriculum being taught in the Saudi schools. The govt claims that it has been FIXED to rule out all reference to other thn islam groups as negative but it's not true. There are many example of what is being taught to their children about US. we are THOSE PEOPLE. I'll see if I can find it again. claire

found it I think

Hello, I'm Mary. I just found this discussion group and would like to join you ladies (and gentlemen) as I am a Naturalized American citizen, having come to the US in 1925 when I was 8 months old -- through Ellis Island. I have a few comments to make later; but right now I'm in a hurry to get to work (yes, I do part-time work for a chiropractor two days a week which keeps my mind active). So, I'll get back to this discussion later today. I've read each postings and am now up to #583 which I find very interesting. Very smart women!!!! Talk with you all later.

Welcome, Mary, jump right on in when you can!

While we're talking, Bev, I guess this is as good a place to ask as any.

I've been wondering about your "tag line" as we call them: What would you do with a brain if you HAD one?"

I am confused over what your intent is here: do you mean this as a spur to thinking and sort of a carpe diem type of thing, if you could live to be 200 what would you do with your mind? An urging to people to develop and use what they have?

Or do you mean to imply that the person you're talking to does NOT have a mind? HAD being capitalized?

Or do you mean something altogether different?

It startled me when I first saw it and I am not sure what you mean by it, so I thought I'd ask.

I live in Florida, so have considerable experience with both Latinos , Orientals and What are referred to as Paki's( muslim, sometimes Indian, a mixture actually of many). It is hard here to separate the different Latinos.. But for the most part, they are hardworking lower middle class, who have a lot of problems with English. The different groups fare differently with their neighbors as well. I owned a store in a center that had Korean, Viets and Chinese.. Wow.. did they not get along.. And if you mixed in blacks, the mixture was incindiery.. A good number of small convience stores are owned by Muslims.. They also tend to own small motels.. In both cases, have never been in one that was clean...or upscale... or even polite. I go way out of my way to avoid the nearest convience store. It is owned by a muslim family, I suspect they live in the back and they give new meaning to rude. they sell out of date food and the one and only time I ever tried to buy anything, I wanted some milk, gave them a 5.00.. they took it and refused to consider change.. I had to threaten them with the police before they would give me back the 5.00. So I admit, I am prejudiced toward this sort of behaviour. I also know for sure that people have come into my store and asked about two different motels owned and run by muslim.. They said they were quote one price, but when they checked out, the price was almost doubled. It seems they were charged for the tv, the mattess and the air conditioning. Since they were tourist, I could not convince them to call the police.. So.. life is sometimes complicated in the land of the mouse.

Well the kind of behavior you have told us about is what upsets people so much...I don't believe it is the fact they are muslim, hispanic or whatever....makes one wonder WHY muslims as a group would have this kind of behavior? As with blacks it is behavior which is upsetting.......I observed a black younster about 13 years of age riding a bike and when he would stand up to pedal his entire rear end was exposed and I mean ALL of it.......it is those damn pants worn down as low as they can get them.....I see white kids emulating this kind of behavior.....the have to walk spraddle legged to keep the pants from falling to their ankles OR hold them up! I am trying to think if I had any of those behaviors as a youngster........Are you kidding! Are some behaviors cultural? I expect so.......Do you think these behaviors will change over time? Not the pants but the others behaviors Stephanie mentioned...........

The tag line didn't really have a lot of meaning. It's a funny quote from "The Wizard of Oz," that I've used as a signature line for a long time. The "HAD" is capitalized because that's the way Dorothy says it to the Scarecrow.

In another group we have been discussing the movie, "Crash." It seems to me that it would really be an interesting exercise for people in this discussion to watch that movie, especially those who have ideas about what "those people" (whichever ethnic group "those people" represent) are like. Not a pretty movie, but an excellent movie.

Oh yes, I forgot about Crash - I do want to see it - maybe I will rent it over this long weekend -

Welcome Mary - so glad you found us --

I must run - just poked my nose in for a minute - back later this afternoon...

School is out here as of today - the street where I live is like one big party with excited kids all over the place - I love it, the fawns are hiding in my back yard to get out of the way - where the does are off to is no telling but nary a doe in sight...

I just must go - running late - till later...

Well....I've read every single posting on this topic, and I have to tell you, there is a lot to think about. But as I read Bev's post #554, I could hardly believe my eyes because it appeared that she was taking words right out of my mouth, especially where she talks about overpopulation. If the planet had 1/10th the population, we wouldn't be having this discussion today because there would be no need for it. And she's right about the fanatical wing of the religious right which is dead set against condom distribution and the Catholic church refusing to give assistance for AIDS education to any clinic which mentions birth control. It's abolutely crazy!!! With science and technology which has allowed us to remain free from the diseases of yesteryear, it has created a world of chaos in many parts of the universe. Bev...you are right. Things ARE screwed up in this world of ours. And the way I see it, it's one of the easiest things to control (after 1 or 2 children, men have a vasectomy and women have their tubes tied. Boom -- finished).

I am French born. My parents were 19 and 21 years old and I was 8 months when we left Marseille. I have a brother 1-1/2 yrs younger, born here in NY. Until I went to school we spoke nothing but French and strangely enough I don't remember having to learn English. I remember my mother telling me that when we came to the US and landed at Ellis Island in November 1925, everyone was tested for health problems and some were rejected. She also mentioned that apparently there were areas of the ship that had segregated the very poor because she did not see any of the them until we passed through the inspectors at Ellis Island. We are the only family from both my mother and father's side that is here in the US. ALL of my relatives still live in France.

Today, I have mixed feelings about our immigration problems. While I certainly understand that any human being who can so easily cross a state line and work to feed his family when his own country cannot, I still feel they are illegal and do not have the right to stay when others wait on line to enter this country LEGALLY. I see nothing wrong with a temporary worker program with ID cards for those who want to come here to work, but our govt. HAS GOT to enforce the law and see that they return to their native country when their time is completed. Fences and walls will not work. My solution is, to all peoples of the world, have the children you can feed and take care of (and in some cases that is 0); then have a vasectomy and have your tubes tied. Simple enough. And many will say easier said than done, but some day it will come to that unless we continue to kill each other in wars which makes absolutely no sense. Life is beautiful and it aches my heart that so many are living such desperate lives in the 21st century.

Great post! (Naturally, I loved it since you agree with me!)

I am reminded of that old Star Trek episode where people on some unnamed planet kidnapped Kirk for the purpose of introducing disease to the planet because they had eradicated all native diseases and there was no room for anybody to walk any more, there were so many people.

It is a big disappointment to me that, having given birth to five children, I have no grandchildren--but I can't fault my son and his wife who decided not to have children because they felt overpopulation was the one of the greatest problems this world faces.

to get into the movies, or a cafeteria or to have a book autographed. Allthese things we take for granted so waiting in line seems natural in terms of allowing immigration into our very large country. The middle , when you flhy over it has lots of empty spaces. it's the coastlines that are realy crowded. I feel that having a a quota sstem, forcing people to wait in line is wrong i the first place . . a mistake and if that were not the policy the argument for not allowing open borders etc. woulld vanish.

My son and his wife have fairl recently emegrated to british columbia and they didn't have to wait in line because at their age and history there was no reason to keep them out. At my age and health history I can only visit, but it's not a quota system and my son after a prescribed period of I think eighteen months has become a "legal resident". His wife is not although she's the one with the real estate license which is very expensive there. The bottom line is that there are procedures there is NO LINE... no waiting for a turn. I think ours is based upon the country of origin which was more or less desireable at one time when the laws were enacted and the quota system is based on that. . . Hi Mary enjoying your input very much. . . welcome. . .claire

""What would you do with a brain if you HAD one?"

I saw it as self deprecating humor from a very smart person who know that there is still much to learn. It takes brains to know that . . . claire

I remember (well, I don't REMEMBER, but if you visit, you get told the history) when Chinese people were brought to Angel Island, which is in the middle of San Francisco Bay. They had to stay there, within swimming distance of San Francisco, until they received permission to enter. Some of them never did and had to be sent back to China.

I think one thing this discussion has done for us is to show how multi-faceted the situation is. I, for one, am glad that I am in a position only to have an opinion, but not to actually have to create policy for this hydra-headed problem!

Does anyone else find it interesting/curious/fascinating/ironic/all of the above(?) that all of us on this discussion have agreement on almost all of the issues? Does that speak to anything? Those who come to SeniorNet? experience of age? I am not used to having so many people agreeing w/ me in current event discussions, it feels good, but makes me wonder who are the citizens who are electing the officials who are making these decisions?

If so many of us, here, have such good sense - teeheeteehee- about this question, is this the consensus of the country, or this is a skewed group? .......jean

Yes, Jean - agree - how did we get into such a mess - been reading a very interesting book that has helped me see how easy it is to influence a people. I had no idea there were those who disagreed with Hitler and of course kids had to lie to teachers etc. not to rat on their grandparent or an Uncle or whoever. The book is "On Hitler's Mountain - Overcoming the Legacy of a Nazi Childhood" by Irmgard A. Hunt

She not only tells about her childhood that included a chance meeting on the road to the Eagles Nest when she sat in Hitler's Lap but she goes into the background of both her parents and both her grandparents which helps to set the stage. The other night on PBS there was a great "American Experience" show about Joseph Goebbels the propaganda minister. From the TV show I learned he did not, like the others according to Irmgard Hunt, have a house in Berchtesgaden but more important, the thing he said when he started his career with Hitler - something about, there is only propaganda with politics and war and there is only politics and war with propaganda.

That is what I see here in the States for the past few years. We really do not get all the news or the complete story - you must read foreign newspapers on the internet to get the news. We have learned of the many press releases that are put out by the government to look like they are written by an independent journalist. I also think this administration has been very good at hooking the vanities of the American Public -

My view is that some religious are not really about following in the footsteps of Jesus but more about propagating their ethics that they have wrapped up into their faith therefore, so full of that energy it becomes no more than a vanity. In addition, we have many no longer feeling power over their own destiny so it was easy to give them a false sense of empowerment. - Let’s go to war - especially when the war was cloaked as a way to insure security - offering a feeling of empowerment. to folks in order to take care of what they fear.

Then this Immigration issue - to me I think it is more about three things:

First, not actually knowing the people on a one on one level allows us to imagine the worst and to believe the worst when we read about a group of people. Sure, among every group, there are some bad apples but then that is true of all groups of people.

Second, there is one area of the country where the illegals coming across are at the end of a desperate journey. That border state is hearing about these horrendous journeys that end up in death on their doorstep. Rather than hearing of all that horror, they would like it to just stop! Anger is often a feeling we use in place of hurt therefore, it is easy to get angry with people who have allowed themselves to be in such desperate situations which can only pull at our heartstrings for so long –

Finally, I really believe in this country we do not like to have poor people live among us. We want them to go away. We want to clean them out of our cities. We want them to take care of themselves and not look for help from public programs. Most illegals are poor and even if they do not stay poor, many citizens are feeling their hard earned money is supporting poor people and they just do not want to support what they would prefer didn't exist.

The group here in Books and Lit are a thinking group that are more adventurous than many when you consider the vast number of seniors in this nation - even the vast number who read regularly - and yet, if there is a 100 of us who regularly post, we are lucky - that is saying something about the 100 who are posting.

And so there

my two cents from the soapbox...

you have given this a lot of thought. I agree w/ each one of your points, especially about the poor and about propaganda. I'm so angry at the news networks in this country. I feel like we've lost real NEWS. I watch the BBC almost everyday to get a different perspective and i try to read different magazine sources, the "net" makes that easier to do.

I'm so disturbed at the way the gov't is spending its money. Why have their been hundreds of FBI and police working for at least a week to dig up a farm to see if Jimmy Hoffa is buried there!?!?!? Who CARES what happened to JH except maybe his family? How many 100's of thousands of dollars have they spent just one that one project? It really ticks me off!! People haven't gotten their insurance monies for Katrina yet and they're MAYBE going to dig up JH's bones!! I could scream - often do at the tv!. My mother would blush if she heard what i was saying to my tv.........jean

I love it.. The Jimmy Hoffa thing is hysterical. Who cares? Except the FBI, that is so silly.They are so silly. Sigh. Our government is silly to put it mildly. Funny thing about illegals.. We spent 10 years in Boston,, All of the 80's.. When there, I picked up the paper one day and they had a feature on illegals.. Guess what Boston has.. The highest proportion of illegal Irish immigrants in the US.. Many of them IRA..Hows that for nuts.

Yes, but illegal Irish immigrants have white skin, so they aren't so much of a problem. (grrr!)

Well if I understood the news correctly last night, it looks like we have a new Bill passed on Immigration, what a timely topic THIS is!

Thank you Bev, I love that I missed that reference, it's both literary and of films, too. I think I must be the only person on earth never to have seen the Wizard of Oz movie nor read the book!! I am glad I asked, many thanks.

This is lovely, Barbara:

The group here in Books and Lit are a thinking group that are more adventurous than many when you consider the vast number of seniors in this nation - even the vast number who read regularly - and yet, if there is a 100 of us who regularly post, we are lucky - that is saying something about the 100 who are posting.

http://tinyurl.com/qh5nf

This is the Senate and House bills.

thud

You've never seen "The Wizard of Oz"? I think that's a federal offense in this country!

Nope, nor read the book, hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa That's not all I've missed, either.

Our oldest granddaughter was valedictorian of her high school graduating class in 1981. She was a speaker, along with four other top graduates. They based their speeches on the wishes made by the characters in The Wizard of Oz. This is one story/movie that is really timeless.

You know... this whole thing about immigration boils down to ONE thing. WE DON'T ENFORCE OUR LAWS. We've had a law regarding illegal immigrants for a long time, and it used to be that people were scared to hire illegals for fear of being heavily fined if they were caught. I grew up in a very wealthy NJ town where everyone was either a millionaire or a servant to those rich people (my parents were servants who lived in the mansion.) My brother and I lived with 4 different poor families (weren't most in those days) for 12 yrs, because my parents were too timid, didn't speak the language well, and it never occurred to them that we would be allowed to live in that big home with them. Most of the people we knew who worked for the wealthy were Italians, Irish, French, a few Americans, no blacks that I knew of, but all foreigners were legal immigrants. Nobody hired illegals for fear of being caught.

Fast forward to 1986 when I worked for 2 summers for a 93-yr-old wealthy lady who had a Moroccan cook without a green card. Apparently, no one was looking and didn't care that this sweet little lady was brought to America by some means and worked to send money back to her lazy, good-for-nothing, married Moroccan son who just took her money while she struggled and worried about her legal status. Mothers will do that, won't they?

Really, Americans are at fault for allowing this to happen. We are paying the price now that it is completely out of hand.

Bev...I'm so sorry you do not have grandchildren. It's too bad that your son felt so strongly about overpopulation that he did not allow you the pleasure of a grandchild or two. I think it would have benefitted him as well. I have one daughter, now 56, and she has one son who is 36. I love children who are well behaved and for 9 years I have almost become "family" to two boys that I have sat with since they were 6 mos. and 4 yr. The older one just turned 13 and it's been so much fun watching them grow into the fine young men that have become. Wonderful kids.

Jean,

You are so cute in the way you tell it like it is. You have a perfect right to be ticked off at the way our govt. spends OUR money on stupidity when our citizens who went through the most horrendous catastrophe with Katrina have not gotten the help they need. NBC Evening News has given us plenty of reason to be angry when they report of the millions of $$ spent for a highway that leads to nowhere, and how the govt. will pay $150 for a sink washer for the White House or some stupid thing like that. Makes my blood boil, too. The question is, "How do we fix that?" I'm one of those who is grateful for our media because without it things would be a whole lot worse. Deep down inside, I am an optimist. Life as a pessimist has to be very, very unfulfilling and I choose the brighter side.

However, I do think the time has come for us to elect a woman to lead this country. If Golda Meier, Margaret Thatcher and now Germany's new leader (her name escapes me at the moment) can do it, I think it's now our time. I'M READY FOR IT.

that i have begun asking my college classes if they would vote for a woman - I teach evening classes, so i generally have mostly traditional college age students, but always some older, one semester i had 2 women in their 70's. Almost all of the students say yes! I did have one YOUNG man this session who said, REALLY, he said this - "I don't what a woman to have her finger on the red button during that time of the month!!!!!" I couldn't believe that i was hearing that from a 20 yr old in 2006! But the rest of the class took him on - civilly, i don't allow any attacks in my class, altho that one was tempting - and talked about testosterone being as dangerous as estrogen, etc. etc.

When i asked who are some women they would vote for, there is a strong support for Hillary. I don't think she's an electable candidate at the moment, but i find it interesting that the young people like her and think she is electable.

Remember when we talked about ZERO population growth, each couple would only have two children? Van and i were very careful to do that in our marriage. It didn't work for some of our friends. But, Bev, I both admire and think maybe your son was too cautious, because i agree w/ Mary, grandchildren are a delight and a joy. But as she mentions also, we don't have to be biological grandparents to enjoy a relationship w/ children.

I often feel as though there is noone else who is going to be able to teach my grandson some of the things i can teach him..........tooooo arrogant??? You couldn't convince me....LOL.......I'm the strongest, most out-spoken advocate in his family of many of the 60's and 70's principles that i feel strongly need to be rekindled. I DO NOT think "Liberal" is a bad label, in fact, i believe just the opposite, that all those founding fathers we give such high praise to were LIBERALS and our Dec of Independence and our Constitution are liberal documents that i believe very much in. I'm also angry at the Democratic Party from running from that label. .......

lecture over for today.........jean

I still can't believe it's a pergorative. . an insult, to be called one. I remember a conservative gentleman, a social contact, called my father a communist one time because he couldn't understand the difference. to him everyone who wasn't conservative MUST be a communist.

about immigration is it liberal to what to do away with all immigration quotas? is it liberal to want to have open borders on the south as well as the north. I visited Canada when we were trailer traveling through the Winnepeg area, and I scarcely remember what it took. There was a little guardhouse with a uniformed man who cheerfully waved us through after asking the purpose of our visit. we had relatives. that was enough for him.

No fences there and not needed. I believe, and I this is really liberal. that borders are amply lines on a map. They might exist to define areas of responsibilities as in law enforcement for the area that is culturally homogeneously constructed and informal. there might be different cultural requirements for different areas that require different responsibilities from govt. . .but keeping people out hasn't anything to do with that. So let's let em all in and let them develop into communities like the rest of us u.s. citizens have, let their children be born here so as to claim citizenship and let them work and vote if they pay taxes. The founding fathers only let land holders vote, but it was an economical distinction at that time. . . skin color and country of origin didn't matter. We've come very far from that haven't we.,

Now we're even discussing the voting rights of people who have been in prison and served their terms and are now out. should they be allowed to vote. Immigration as a problem could disappear over night if we didn't worry so about the physical crossings back and forth of these lines on the map.

Winsum --

Do you really mean what you are saying here?:

"Immigration as a problem could disappear over night if we didn't worry so about the physical crossings back and forth of these lines on the map."

We're not talking about back and forth crossings. We're talking about illegal people, working without proper registration, crowding our schools, filling hospital beds, not paying taxes, sending billions of dollars back to their country, and in some cases committing crimes against our citizens -- and who NEVER go back home. It's no different than a home without any rules. It becomes a home of chaos: do what you want to do and hope for the best. That ain't gonna fly, baby!!

Like you, I visited Canada while trailering 30 years ago and one could cross the border as you say, with a few questions and the wave of a hand, but I understand that we will soon need a passport to enter Canada. I think that's telling us that things have changed. I sure wish you were right because it would make life so much sweeter. I agree with Jean who feels our Founding Fathers were basically liberals but I wonder what they would do under the circumstances of today. A temporary worker program might do it. But, I'm still wondering: Do you really mean what you are saying? It's hard for me to buy that because I don't think it will work. I'd love it if it could. And yes, I believe that prisoners who have served their time should be allowed to vote.

Jean,

I AM glad to learn that you are doing a bit of research on how people feel about a woman in the White House. I like Hillary, too (my daughter can't stand her) and I also think Condolezza is a very smart, intelligent lady. But, you know what??? She thinks too much like GWB for me. I sometimes wonder, however, if deep down inside she thinks differently. Can't you just see a NY Times one day with a headline: BLACK AMERICAN WOMEN PRESIDENT OF THE U.S.A. That little 20-yr-old young man that you are teaching would have to go home to change his pants because he'd never make it to the toilet.

You must be having fun with all those young people. I know I would. It appears that you have a very interesting and happy life and that's wonderful. Maybe some day I'll get to meet some of the lovely ladies who post here. Anybody in So. Florida? Palm Beach County?

I think you mentioned you used to live in Jersey.

Ginny grow up in Moorestown and I moved here about 30 years ago, unfortunately after Ginny moved away.

Yes, teaching in a community college does a lot for me. It keeps my brain working, gives me something to be interested in, keeps me learning new things all the time and keeps me in touch w/ a variety of people, from ages 18 to 75 and all ethnic and racial groups. I love it. It is really the best job in academia, you don't have to publish if you don't wish to and yet you get all the perks of teaching in college.

I agree about Condi, she may be very different once she's out of GW's admin. Madeline Albright seems to like her, says they are friends, MA's father was CR's professor and was the influence of her going into foreign relations study. Now Madeline is someone I think would be a great President, unfortunately she wasn't born in this country. I've made the comment before that i'd favor changing that qualification for president, just so she could run!!

I think it's hard to apply labels to the behaviors and decisions associated w/ the immigration problem. To me "Liberal" means thinking about the good of the individual, as well as the country. The problem is way too complicated and tied up in the world economy, the justice system and other institutions to put a political label on solutions. Someone said earlier we could do a lot by simply enforcing the laws we have. I agree, especially giving employers responsibility, even tho there are some problems related to that too.......oooohhhhh meeee, tis a puzzlement......jean

Mary I am having a problem with the view that illegals are "crowding our schools, filling hospital beds, not paying taxes, sending billions of dollars back to their country, and in some cases committing crimes against our citizens."

I do not see how educating kids is such the problem. Those states that had to assure migrant families that their kids received an education when they were not in the school for more than 4 months at a time have done it and it did not cause the schools to go broke. If you look at the budget for the school systems in the US now the biggest budget breaker has been the special classes and physical therapy that a school must provide now that all children regardless of handicap attends the public schools.

But back to the children of illegals - out of our interest in living in a world where we can depend on folks having a certain level of education we get folks like Alberto Gonzales, Attorney General who is the son of illegal parents.

Most illegals go to free clinics and do not have the ability to fill up hospital beds - in fact

most of American, unless they have good insurance can no longer fill up our hospital beds

Much of the problem why we have families in the US is we make it so difficult for someone who is here for work to get back to his family and then run the gauntlet of getting back to his US job and so they only go home once ever year of even less often. These are young healthy men and women and so the hook up with someone here and end up with a family - sometimes two families. Their US family and their Mexican family.

As to them sending all the money back - what is new - look at how the Irish have waged a war and made themselves an economic miracle on the money sent back by the Irish who came to America to work. They may have stayed but their heart was always in Ireland and they always went back whenever they could swing the passage or later the cost of the flight.

With all the money we disperse around the world these nations with a Diaspora at least work and give us the benefit of their labor and brains for the money where as money we send to other places all we hope for is some good will that we sometimes do not even get that.

I think if we think there is a limit on the resources in this country it is like a family who thinks they are limited and cannot share or find a place for another and yet, some of us learn the hard way the same lesson over and over, there is no limit. With more, we expand. With more labor - more brain power - more new ideas - more needs that required unique solutions it adds to the pool that brings out the creativity in everyone.

I keep looking at that one link in the heading especially and I am struck each time that when we panic it is because a new part of the world is emigrating. Our solution seems to be to pass new immigration laws.

Bottom line all an immigration law can do is affect those within our border- no law can affect folks in another nation - and so a law won't stop them coming and then the whole issue becomes one of enforcing any law we have on the books. Again the laws on the books and in fact any law newly created cannot be enforced with over a thousand miles of open land - even a fence needs to be patrolled - that is a lot of money that would easily take care of additional classrooms and teachers as well as clinics.

Any solution is costly - the cost does not disappear - I think then the issue is how would we prefer to use the money to affect this problem or do we make it an asset and affect the asset so that the money spent builds all of us.

Please - no offense - we are all just venting our thoughts here. As we each share an idea, it brings out other solutions and ideas. If you see other, problems or solutions please post them. We are not coming up with a consensus nor are we going to bring about a solution that will be sent to Washington. It is good to hear all sides of this issue.

Jean how exciting to be teaching - what do you teach? Don't you just love it when all of a sudden you see someone's face or eyes when they get it -

With the way we bandy around the words liberal and conservative I think both words have lost their meaning and are now only words to use when we are trying to degrade an idea or a cause that we do not agree with.

Winsom I hear you - I think what you say is sound but scary to many who see us with limitations as to how many people we can accommodate.

Agreeing with you let me share this - I know it has to do with interests but to me this is a good analogy. One of my Grandson's is a national winning gymnast - I watched the regional competition this year held in Norman OK. What struck me is although, Cody works hard [they practice at least 3 hours a day] there are only two boys in the Lubbock area who compete. Everything Cody does he and his parents must learn on their own - his coach is a nice young man who is a student at Tech. Nice but not a seasoned nor a professional coach and so it is a wonder Cody does as well as he does.

However, there were several teams there from cities that have more interest in the sport. Plano not only had a large group competing but several followers all cheering for the team and team mates high fiving each other regardless if the nailed the exercise or not. What is more impressive they have three couches from Russia and they have a nutritionist who meets with the parents once a month.

There was a team from San Antonio, smaller but good and without the expertise - in San Antonio most students are of Mexican decent which makes their bodies strong and they mature early so their muscles do a great job during competion - problem - most families are on the poor side - Gymnastics is a costly sport - the cost of joining the gym - hiring a coach - new competion clothing each year since boys grow so quickly - travel and overnight stays for all the competitions unless the gym in your town hosts a meet - on and on. And so fewer families can afford to allow their boys to expand their talent and learn what their bodies can do.

And so I see - with more people the pool of money allows for more professional guidance - I also see that regardless your skill, if your are not part of a mixed economic community with different knowledge and abilities you miss out and either do not know about additional professional guidance or, you cannot afford it if everyone is in the same lower economic bracket.

Plano has all sorts of boys where as San Antonio only had lower income kids and Cody is from an area where there is not the interest and frankly, the families in the area limit their lives and experiences only to what is in the Lubbock area. Very few of the graduates leave town. They see themselves working the cotton fields or ranching just as their family has for generations. Texas Tech is right there - a few do go on to UT Austin and a few who have the money go on to A&M and learn modern ranching. A&M graduates usually go back where as the few that graduate from UT often go on to other places to broaden their lives.

I just see this picture of how folks think about their resources and see those who work in mixed groups seem to be able to bring the support that allows each in the group to test their skills as well as, they create more interest so the group becomes even larger with all sorts of support on and off the gym.

jeriron1 and Ginny thanks for bringing to our attention the Senate Bill - we shall see what we shall see on that won't we - I bet it is the big topic of all the Sunday Morning talk shows.

It is interesting isn't it Ginny when you think of the huge number of seniors in our population - You and others do a great job here and thank goodness you set a standard so that we have a place we can vent our frustrations and thoughts about what is happening without the trash you read on some blog sites -

I know many of us are hoping this Bill will be an answer - I think we all hope for an answer however, some of us are less than hopeful a Bill will bring about any meaningful change. Again, we shall see what we shall see...

Mary I know I seem to beat up on so many of your thoughts - however, I am SooooGlad you are with us and continue to post your concerns and thoughts - You are a voice that we need to hear.

Sounds like we all have stories of immigrants that leave us scratching our heads - a thought I wonder how knowing you are not accepted affects how you act, try to fit in, get ahead in a climate that is un-accepting... just a passing thought but now I wonder if that has something to do with joining gangs and doing drugs. We saw how not being accepted affect some "white" kids in middle class schools in middle-America - hmmmm

one of those nights - cannot seem to fall asleep - allergies are giving me a problem - while replacing the filter in my clean air machine it hit me - no one is talking about the Maquiladoras that were not only going to bring the cost of goods down for the US manufacturers who set up these factories in Mexico but bring wages - granted very low and folks living in horrible conditions - but wages were now available to the Mexican worker.

My first thought was when the Mexican worker had to live in the conditions around a Maquiladora they would soon want to take that last 1000 meter walk and swim the river. If you have ever visited one of these border Maquladoras you are shocked beyond words - thousands - I think in Juarez it is 21 million people, crammed together in houses made of flattened tin cans, cardboard, old tires you name it - with no water except a spigot every 100 feet on a dirt road with the raw sewage running down the side of the road in a shallow open ditch - these are conditions that remind you quickly of a pig sty and yet, this is what we supplied along with the low pay and made it impossible for the people to organize in a union. If they tried they were fired. The company towns of the 1930s in the US were palaces in comparison.

And so my immediate thought was, we where using the Mexican worker. There is no free lunch - can't use them like that and then have it both ways they shouldn't try to use us. Granted it is not the average citizen doing the direct using but it would be far easier to make sure Mexican workers wanted to stay in Mexico by giving them a decent pay with a way to build themselves some decent housing rather than trying to fine the American Company here who is hiring the illegals. We would not have this flood of illegals if there was a decent paying job in Mexico.

Well I looked and found this on the Internet - Maquiladoras get new lease on life that tells the story - evidently China's cheap labor has changed the scene for the Maquiladoras - they no longer are hiring the low paid worker - and so where do all those families go - yep, common sense says across the border -

As the article says - "The maquiladora industry enjoyed rapid growth in the 1980s and 1990s when U.S. and foreign investors established assembly plants in northern Mexico to take advantage of the country’s low-cost labor.

China’s entry into the World Trade Organization at the end of 2001 and the subsequent lifting of trade barriers in the U.S. created a new competitive landscape. Mexico’s maquiladoras, with labor costs of wages and government-mandated fringe benefits totaling about $2.59 an hour, could not compete with labor costs in China of less than $1 an hour.

Hundreds of maquiladoras that manufactured or asembled low-end merchandise were closed, with much of the production transferred to China. In 2005, however, new plants opened and maquiladoras specializing in higher-end products such as auto parts and flat-screen televisions began to expand operations. No one is predicting a return to the double-digit growth of the 1990s, but the future once again looks bright for maquiladoras...

Production based solely on the difference between Mexican and U.S. wages has probably been lost forever, Christman said at a recent conference. While proximity to the U.S. market is still important, the value is greatest for manufacturing enterprises where time to market is crucial to meet seasonal demand or satisfy fickle consumer tastes. Because 96 percent of the products manufactured or asembled in the maquiladoras are destined for the U.S. market, the Mexican plants depend heavily on the health of the U.S. economy and growth in consumers’ expendable income.

The model for successful maquiladora enterprises over the next five years will be high-tech plants that tailor their products to customers demanding rapid delivery,"

And so it appears that China with its low wages is affecting where the Mexican worker goes to earn a buck.

I did not realize that President Vicente Fox will be leaving office in July - from everything I have read he tried but the corruption is so deep and so great in Mexico he could not make the difference he wanted to make when he took office.

Barbara, re your #699. I agree with all you say here - it's very much common sense and quiet recommendations...something we don't see very much of today. Everybody (and I don't mean here) shouts all the time.

We (John, me, and our daughters) are proud to call ourselves liberals, too. A couple of our sons-in-law consider themselves more conservative, and we tend to stay away from political discussions when we're all together. Our grands who are politically active are liberal, but several are (so far) not interested in politics. I hope that'll change as they mature.

Our two granddaughters are here for a couple of days. They live in SC and are 23 (one year out of college and headed for grad school in San Diego, CA) and 17 (a rising high school senior valedictorian). The illegal immigration problem is one they feel very strongly about, and they are very much in favor of the resident worker bill. They say it's one of the very few things they've agreed with the current administration about. We've told the oldest that she's in for a very big culture shock. She's grown up with a large percentage African-American population, and she's moving to a place where that she'll be in a large minority Hispanic and Asian population with comparatively few blacks. One of her undergrad majors was Spanish, so she is fluent in the language - a huge plus for her out there. It'll be interesting, to say the least.

One grandson graduated from high school last night. He's been in the JAFROTC, and has enlisted in the Air Force. His HS is a large county high school in a rural county, and from the make-up of the senior class, has a mostly white population. Out of 300+ graduates, there were only about a dozen black students and probably 15-20 Spanish-surname students. There are industries (nurseries and chicken processing plants) in their and neighboring counties that hire a goodly number of illegal immigrants, so even in this area, there's an impact from the situation. Our GS is going to basic training in San Antonio. Again, although I'm sure he won't have much time to even take a deep breath, he's going to be thrown into a completely different population environment - urban, ethnic, racial, cultural - in almost every thing I can imagine. Again, it'll be an interesting life change for this young man.

Barbara --

I hear what you are saying, and believe me, I'm not anti-Mexican or anti anything except anti "non-enforcement of the laws we do have." The fact remains that twelve million undocumented (a nicer word than illegal) workers is a PROBLEM in this country. If it weren't. we and our government wouldn't be trying to find a solution.

The Feb. 6, 2006 issue of Time magazine had a cover page with read "Inside America's Secret Workforce" which also states "a surprising look at the real people behind the debate over illegal immigration." If you haven't read it, no doubt your local library has a copy. Or, check it out on www.time.com. Also, several months ago Time had a very interesting article about a hospital in a border Texas or Arizona town that actually had to shut down completely: they had no funds to continue caring for its citizens because injured or sick migrant workers were taking the place of other local citizens and the hospital was not receiving payment for them.

If you believe none of this is a problem, you certainly are entitled to your opinion, as we all are. I take no offense when we differ; it's part of the American way and I'm so, so happy to be an American.

I guess that if President Vincente Fox can't solve his problems he must be very happy to let us do it for him.

first I like barbaras analysis of what new people do for us and have always done for us etc.

second MaryBo yes I believe everything I said and I guess one of the things I'm trying to do is to OPEN MINDS to other possibilities than simply SOLVING THE PROBLEM. . .which to my mind. which is probably more open than most, needn't be one. . . .claire

is historically very conservative. They select what they want to espouse as do all of us. I am very liberal and not at all surprised you'd read something like that in TIME MAGAZINE. . .try THE NATION?We have everything here. How's everyones mind still inside the head along witht he brains etc. . . liberals have theirs intact and use them daily. Unfortunately conservatives have theirs written in stone.That's where our problems live. . . .claire

Mary - my view is it has only become a problem in Washington because there are many people who say it is a problem and those in Washington are going to listen because their seat in Congress is only assured if they do listen.

I think we are on the opposite side of looking at this issue and I hope you are OK with that - please do not feel I am challenging you - but I do see another side -

The concern you share over the hospital beds - I would ask those who wrote that news story if that concern is any greater than any other area - like for instance, the Gulf Coast, where they are closing clinics because of a lack of money - that to me is what the closing of these clinics and or, hospitals is really about - and so the question - how are we allocating our money - is this really just another problem with the health care system - whenever there is a problem the poor get the brunt of the problem before it hits the middle income worker.

I guess I see this as a way to blame - if there is something wrong by blaming it just does not get fixed - Yes, I think with any influx there are new challenges that force us to come up with new solutions. Take a maturing family - all of a sudden some families decide at Christmas time that there are too many for any meaningful presents to be given to each and every child, their spouse and their children. And so especially the brothers and sisters come up with a new plan of picking from a hat who they will give a gift to or choosing a family gift for the entire family or lowering the expectations of the kind of gifts and yet continue to remember everyone - even the family meal is up for debate - does it become a pot luck - do they all chip in and hire someone to serve and do some of the cooking - do they go to a restaurant - do they take turns at each other's houses.

Well as a nation I think the emphasis could be on re-arranging the services which means tackling the health care problem that is not just out of whack because of illegals - it is out of whack and because the illegals live in the poorest areas of a town that is the area that will have the most trouble meeting its old and expected responses.

We need new solutions - we have recognized finally a new challenge - up till two years ago the vast number of illegals in this Nation was never spoken about - now we know we have the challenge and rather than trying to stuff it all into the existing formulas for living in this nation I think we need to start looking at the issues that this challenge is presenting and role up our sleeves.

No matter our feelings about the war in Iraq and the cost in dollars and manpower - we have spread out manpower taking them away from jobs here in the states - it is only in the community of manpower that challenges are met - and so we have had a challenge here in the states that is like fighting a war on two fronts - we did that successful during WWII - we can do it again but it takes folks wanting to take on the challenge rather than to bottle it up and not address the challenges.

This is when I go back to wondering if it is change that folks are afraid of - the change is not just in what a culture brings with it when they emigrate but the change is to our own way of life as we have the challenge of so many from another area of the world descending on the resources not planned to accommodate this new need. That I think is the real change that we will be facing regardless if there is fence built or not. We will not be rounding up 12 million people and sending them back and so like it or not we need to expand our thinking and get those folks in office to consider new solutions without our harping on control.

see problems as problems in control and solutions as control. others see problems as problems in resources and solutions in providing for those who need them. I hate to make this political but Republicans are members of the first group on the whole. Control is their solution to everything. . . claire

Winsum,

How does one answer a person who puts labels on a person when they do not know them? With your post, you are labelling me a conservative because I read Time magazine and that I should try The Nation....that it has everything and that liberals have their heads intact and use them daily. Unfortunately, you say, conservatives have theirs written in stone.

What kind of open mindedness is that???

I want you to know that I do read The Nation. I have a friend who suscribes to it and I to Time. We swap magazines. So, I do read it. Perhaps you should try reading other magazines to get a broader outlook because it appears you are getting a one-sided view of world events. My Republican friends sometimes call me liberal. Now liberals are calling me conservative. I give up. I am what I am. Sorry.

Barbara-- I think you are right about this

"We will not be rounding up 12 million people and sending them back and so like it or not we need to expand our thinking and get those folks in office to consider new solutions without our harping on control."

It's to late to point a finger and putting blame on anyone. We have to come up with a new solution to get the job done.

That's what I mean by eteched in stone . . .and the world is changing so radically that the past is no longer applicable to the present or our hopes for the future. . . .our laws are hopelessly out of date. . . we can't trust them anymore.claire

This is when it gets difficult talking - Mary yes, it becomes confusing because everyone wants to label people now and of course that label is set by who ever is talking - and Clair that is the problem also - I think certain words have become so loaded plus I can hear under the word your frustration - for that matter probably if you feel as I do - down right anger. It sure is hard to talk about national issues without the frustration peeping out its head - Mary I do not think the word was aimed at you to hurt as much as it is the pent up frustration that many share in this nation right now - not everyone but many.

In fact I was amazed to read an article were short couple of sentence interviews with the parents or spouses of the Iraqi soldiers who have died and their attitude toward the President after he admitted the other day with Blair that mistakes were made.

Some of the relatives dismissed the President long ago - some were obviously frustrated that they were still there after Saddam was captured - others were very even in their judgment without condemning the man - only one seemed to be filled with the idea of staying the course -

And so with that variety of responses I think it was a picture of the national response to this administration on all sorts of issues. Many no longer support this administration on many issues but they do not condemn the administration either and some, who are so frustrated they have to bite their tongue to stay civil. I am reading many a post here that I think we have a lot of tongue biters where as, Mary I do not think you are at the tongue biting stage.

Oh me, I am quite liberal, but since I live in a severely impacted state by illegals, I tend to not be quite so liberal about them. We also have way too much " Oh thats their culture" about very very odd things, that are against the law.. Drag racing which is killing off people and latinos claim is a bit part of their culture.. I think we need to make a policy and then.. boom stick to it. I think that most guest ( ho ho) workers do not go home..so figure out a way to make them. I think that Mexico needs to clean up their act and start providing for their citizens. I do not hate legals or illegals, but I do want them to obey our laws, learn English as quickly as possible and if you want to live here, then start abiding by the culture of the country you chose..Now I will duck my head and get ready to be blasted.

hehehe Stephanie you sound reasonable to me - regardless I agree or not with the speaking of English I do not see there is any grounds in this country to make a person speak in a certain language - and so I do not think it is even enforceable -

Having grown up in a house where another language was the first language after our family was in this country since the late 1850s and that did not change until the reaction to our culture just before WWII I can attest we felt like we were Americans and I remember from the time I was quite small going with my mother when she was proudly voting. I would listen to her and my grandmother discuss over afternoon coffee the issues and Mom would be making sure Grandma had voted.

I also had a friend whose family arrived in the 1920s and she was the only one who understood English so that she had to accompany her mother and grandmother to the store to read the labels etc. if they went to the A&P. So the family did the majority of their shopping in a small grocery that not only carried the foods they used but, the shopkeeper spoke their language. My Mom would send me to that store also because she said this or that was better and she felt it being small with everyone knowing each other she could send me there alone.

And so for me the language issue is a non-issue - If we were to make English our National Language then there would be an issue of no longer printing ballots and other legal information in two langauges but it would not stop folks from speaking in their "comfort" tongue.

I just think as we are still trying to deal with if "God and Country" will be taken back out of the pledge that is the long road through Congress of trying to make English our National language.

Bottom line who does it benefit to have all legal documents no longer printed in two languages... We cannot go around putting folks in jail for speaking in a different language. Hehehe if we were like Europe we would all be learning, at least Spanish, in school from the time we were in the first grade. I think our one language limitation is not in keeping with saying we are leaders in the "World" economy...

AS to Drag Racing - that must be a local problem - Austin has a large Mexican American population - we may be over 40% by now but the last official percentage I heard was 38% - alas no drag racing - in fact I do not even see as many low riders as we saw back in the 1990s.

My guess is this could be tied to economics in a very different way - again this is my guess - we have a lovely subdivision of $500,000 and up priced homes - this is a price above the average price in Austin - surrounding this subdivision are two lessor priced home subdivisions - one is still above average for the city but average for the Tech community that is Austin. These are homes in the 300K and then another smaller subdivision where the homes are in the average price range for Austin - very high 100K to mid 200K -

This is the subdivision filled with a lot of teenagers - these homes are small - usually 3 bedrooms, maybe 4 with only 1 living and no formal dining to convert to computer or card playing or play space - Austin homes do not have basements or attics so there is no room for the teens to spread out - and these families are not able to afford country club etc. that would give the teens a place to meet their friends and so these teens are racing around this high dollar neighborhood because the roads are very hilly and it is exciting.

My guess is the Mexican Americans or even the illegals who are drag racing are trying to get together for fun but their homes are too small to allow that - They have no background for baseball or football - and many of the boys especially will consider it a better job to be hired as an auto mechanic and so the interest in cars and racing - the city would probably be better off encouraging them to put together a money earning drive with matching city money to establish a race track - does not have to me a glorious track but a dirt track would do - they can all go there and have their entertainment without whipping through town.

There may be 60 reasons from Sunday that this idea would not work where you live - but I bet there is some solution rather than simply trying to say No - it is like children - if we say no we have to say no a 1000 times where as if we give alternatives for them to consider they choose one and are happy as can be.

Stephanie, please, all I am doing is adding my two cents here as I make sure you are listened to by responding to your post - please no intent to beat up on you - but from all the preceding posts you can see I sure come from a certain perspective and at this point in this conversation if I changed it would seem so disingenuous that nothing I say would have meaning. Happy Trails...

and we are severly impacted by fire as well as earthquakes and flood. this is a quote from the New York Times e-mail that comes to me daily. " With Illegal Immigrants Fighting Wildfires, West Faces a Dilemma By KIRK JOHNSON Some say that firefighting may be too important to allow for a crackdown on illegal workers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/us/28fire.html?th&emc=th '

WHAT WOULD WE DO WITHOUT THOSE WILLING WORKERS ON THOSE HOT SMOKY DANGEROUS FIRE LINES. . . I HAVE NO IDEA. CLAIRE

refers to a political move to distract people from real problems by creating a furor about imagined ones. that's what this is all about and why it infuriates me. this admministration is facing one political disaster after another by creating this immigration furor. I am emotionally aroused by this. can't help it . nothing personal to any of you. just seething is all. . . claire

Interesting Claire - it would be so interesting to have a real brake down of the many jobs that we depend on that are being carried out by illegals -

Whoops your frustration is NOT just interesting - hehehe - your post got in here before I could upload my response to your other post I understand your rage - never thought of it as wag the dog but good expression. For the first time in this Presidency I am agreeing with his stand on immigration - they say politics makes for strange bedfellows.

I know I have had a very recent experience - I do not pay cheap - most hire help for cleaning or mowing etc. at $35 and hour and I pay $50 - I asked some teen ages on my street if they would like to earn $50 each for an hour and clean up the leaves on my patio, bag them and put them out for pickup. Our live Oaks shed in Spring. No takers...

I ended up doing it myself when I would have preferred getting more of my house ready for painting - Then I had holes to dig - well I had asked the guy who does so much of my fix up to test my sewer lines to make sure there wasn't a crack in the piping - [I'm hearing water leak sounds] - turns out I did not have a sewerage clean-out and he had to get the utility company to come out, mark off where the pipe lines were located and where they connect to the house and to the main line at the street so a hole could be dug to find the pipe [below slab] so he could put in a clean out.

Again, he could find no one even at the $50 I said I would pay an hour and finally he just went to the corner where the illegals hang out waiting for someone who needs them to pick them up for a days labor. This was a really nice kid, maybe 19 whose family still goes back and forth. He has some English. After he finished digging in 90 degree heat for Greg he dug 3 holes for me in this rocky ground, saying he knew what I wanted because he helps his grandmother with her gardening - we ended up paying this young man for two hours of work and he did 3 hours - except for providing him with a whole cooler of ice water [about 3 gallons] he worked none stop and was pleased with his pay. He was the one who decided the $100 was enough - I think he saw my holes as a favor since I was to him a grandmother.

Sweet kid - not as smart as we would like our own kids to be but easily as nice to me as I could imagine. No I would not have him in my house because I do not know who he runs with nor anything about his private life but as a worker I would hire him again if that was ever possible.

Most teens to day do not have to work that hard and so they do not - they have nearly all their needs met and so they only work for the extras - they can afford to be selective - we may not like having the new and poor immigrants but without them we would have a difficult, if not impossible job of getting the grunt work done.

I had a great laugh - in the political folder immigration is an on-going subject - one of the posters inserted some humor that caught my funny bone - I think her online name is cyclops - she said without quoting exactly; we should dig a trench along the border - take the dirt over to New Orleans to rebuild the levees and then fill the trench with the crocodiles causing so much problem in Florida. Than she asked if we had any other problems she could fix... I had the best chuckle reading that post.

that would be a fix or are they protected. . . .Wag the Dog was a movie and maybe a book with Robt Dinero I think. anyhow it's worked it's way into the vernacular. President whoever started a war to get people's minds off the economy or crime or some such domestic problem. . . . this president is getting good at reading his lines now although you can see his eyes move. needs more practice I guess. The speech writers are keeping it simple which helps. are you familiar with the graphic design saying KISS. keep it simple stupid? It's being used in other fields to now and I think is applicable to this situation. claire

Too many generalizations being thrown around in this discussion. I call a high school or middle school when I need work done. The guidance counseler has the names of students, looks over which ones will do the work I require, we set up a time, price, and we all win. I get the yard work done, they get the money. The counselor chooses who will be sent. As a student I picked fields of strawberries and vegetables for extra summer cash. As an adult I glean fields for the local food pantry. I don't believe illegals are the only ones who will do certain jobs. I am fed up with the argument that we are like Germany with the wall. The southern border needs to be closed. I would be hard pressed to pick and choose which illegals got to stay and which got shipped back. Except of course the criminals. It's not true that illegals use free clinics instead of hospitals. I work in a hospital.

I have always thought that the immigration issue had a lot of wagging the dog involved with it. Just a couple of months ago, we were most concerned with the war, with health care, with illegal wiretapping, with corruption in Washington and now suddenly ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION seems to be the major concern for everybody in this country. As if we just suddenly discovered that it was a problem.

As for all those "billions of dollars" that illegals are sending back to their home countries, isn't interesting that on the one hand we are taking about how they are talking jobs that Americans won't do and that employers can charge them less than minimum wage, and on the other hand that they are sending small fortunes out of this country "back home."

If that's the case, I think they should all become accountants and help the rest of us figure out how to save "billions" on what we earn each month.

It was mentioned several months ago in the current events folder that immigration was going to be a very hot issue....The western states, and governors were raising holy hell about the condition of their schools, hospitals, etc.......People said then if the government wouldn't do something they would and they did....citizens patrolling which of course some did not like...........so....this has been boiling up for some time and is not a "wag the dog" deal in my opinion..............

well nancy war is more important and breaking the law with blatant unconstitutional wire tapping is more important and the rampant corruption in government is more important, than people breaking the law for a FEW OTHERS by coming into this country and working for low wages and sending money home. at least in my opinion. . .Claire

Who knows what constitutes a "wag the dog" issue. The current administration has been in trouble for a long time. I was absolutely amazed this morning to hear people I thought were the most staunchly pro-Bush people in the world complaining about him today. I'm not denying that illegal immigration is a problem, but I think it's a question of perspective, and, as Claire pointed out, we have far more important issues than something that has been with us for decades and will still be with us decades from now.

I think at this point we need a little humor in here with regard to immigration. This came to me this morning from a friend of mine which I hope will put a smile on your face instead of a growl.

THE ANSWER TO AN ONGOING PROBLEM......

Problem Solved

Dig a moat the length of the Mexican border, take the dirt and raise the levies in New Orleans, then put the Florida alligators in the moat!

Any other problems you want me to solve?

OK.. I never ever meant that you should not use your comfort language at home. Only in public. Having a small retail store for years has made me sensitive to this problem of using a foreign language habitually in public. My last store was in a mixed center ( never a good idea, different cultures have different ideas about what is proper in retail). Anyway I had far too many latinos come into the store and give me a hard time about no english..I had a book store and it is close to impossible to get paperback books in spanish( used that is), so I had nothing for them.. But I was a notary and they wanted me to notarize in spanish.. They also wanted work and did not understand that I had the right to insist on English speakers in my type of retail. The racing is really dangerous and seems to involve young males who have decided their virility is enhanced with souped up cars. They have killed off others by racing side by side on a road meant for two lane trafffic. Then the community writes letters to the editor and howls since we are taking away their culture. Just silly actually. Central Florida is really really a mixture of cultures, so rich and poor are quite mixed in the developments. We have million dollar homes and cheaper homes( but we are pricing many people of all types out of the market) I believe that this administration is using the illegals as a method of distraction as well as many others do.

Maryboree

I haven't been in this particular Curious Minds Discussion, but just happened to look now.

That's a good one!! I've had that joke passed to me in email, as well.

On the lighter side here my quip would be:

"Would anyone who likes blue and thinks that stone is strong dare say a word here?"

Surely, I jest, though!

Everyone have a great day.

Prancer -- I like your quip...very much. Short and sweet!!

I did not mean to imply that war is not a more important issue than immigration........Just making it clear that it was not the Bush administration who brought it forward.......it was simmering and bubbling there for years and the states most impacted had enough.......It started becoming bigger several monthes ago until it is one of the main topics of the day.........I still don't believe it is a 'wag the dog" issue.......

Maryboree...very cute and clever, made me laugh.

I agree with you Nancy. Some people here have to lighten up. Try a little humor.

Subject: "GUEST" WORKERS EXPLAINED"

Since hearing the plan for treating illegal immigrants as "guest" workers, I now have undergone a complete reversal in my understanding of the proper meaning of words.

I stupidly used to believe that the definition of "guest" is one who is invited. Now, I'm told this is no longer correct.

For instance, if a burglar breaks into my home, he really becomes a guest who is only looking for a better life. Because he broke in for that reason, I must accept the obligation to provide health care, education, transportation, and living quarters.

I feel so much better now.

Hehehe Annie if I call the school I still get illegals -

Interesting analogy Mary - I would have a different story though - one that went something like this:
There was this guy who called over the border for some help - a few came and with more help he became more prosperous - so he needed more and more help till finally they came without him calling. The day came when he had more help than he needed and so since they were there they went further and further up the road knocking on doors to see if folks needed help.

And then the flood gates of folks who heard there was work - along with folks from Central America running from a revolution and Mexicans who have been fearing a revolution for the past 20 years they came in such numbers that various locations became overcrowded -

Since the employers are not paying for their health care we pay for it - not in increased prices on the services and products where the illegals are working but in taxes. We do not like paying the higher taxes but we like the lower cost products.

Some areas along the border tried to control the flow with more fences and patrol cars so the numbers coming took a different route through the desert arriving in bad physical shape. They are desperate and like all desperate people they will even take what they need in order to stay alive until they can get to a safer area where the jobs are waiting.

You were NOT the one who called them in the first place - nor are you the company exec who advertises in Mexico for them to come - I can hear you that you are concerned that there are so many from one part of the world who have arrived that you are wanting the flood of people to stop.

Most of us have never been so close to desperation that we would do whatever it took to stay alive. Having received the message their labor is wanted they do not want to bear the hardship and cost of being sent back before they can get to the job that was advertised.

Yep, we both are using a simplistic analogy that does not take into consideration all the stories and reasons for the dispoira - but in my view we can let it scare us with thinking that we do not have enough to go around or, we can see it as an opportunity to build this nation with more manpower to the wheel.

On this one Nancy I have to agree with you - I think this is one issue where the dog is doing the wagging - I also think this issue is something that folks think they will be heard where as, it has been like going up against a brick wall to be heard when it comes to the Iraq war. This issue will make a difference in a Congressional election and so everyone feels like they can speak out - I think some of the anger and frustration that is leveled against the President's plan is in retaliation for him not listening to the concern over the war.

Bev and Claire hang in there - I think there are many who see what is important sliding off the front page but it is not out of mind any longer just because it is out of sight.

Stephanie you are so right - in order to have certain jobs you do need to speak English - and your store catering to an English speaking client of course English would be required - but I see the many ethnic stores here, especially the Asian stores where no one speaks English - plus, if I shop and there are no youngsters from their family to translate we have to do this sorta sign language thing.

Most of the Spanish retail that I have ever shopped is in San Antonio where English and Spanish are used equally and when I go down to Lorado [haven't been in a couple of years now] most of the shop keepers there have a bit of English - enough that we can bargain. So I do not have the difficulty you seem to be encountering with folks not able to speak English.

I guess like anything if there are more folks around you that speak your language then there is no hurry to learn another language.

Prancer thanks for peeking in - hope you can add more to this discussion - we are winding down this Memorial Day Weekend -

Did you find it difficult to watch the celebration from Washington on PBS last night - my tears were falling so I ended up shutting the TV off.

I couldn't watch PBS last night either. I switched to another PBS station that we have here in So. Florida which had something much more light-hearted.

Hope everyone had a nice Memorial Day.

An example of strange behavior.. We had a Korean grocery store in our center. It was a sort of odd type store, but was used primarily by orientals and I was told by some of my customers that Americans were not welcomed. I thought this was odd, but I went in , since I do a lot of oriental cooking and discovered they were right. Anything I asked for, they insisted they did not have. Even when I brought it to the register. Then it was.. not priced yet?? I sent the Vietnamese woman who owned an insurance company on the other side of my store and she said, it took a fight for them to sell her stuff. She laughed and laughed and said that Koreans were quite odd. I learned that if you were black and went into the store, they would immediately make you leave. Then they started drying vegetables in back of the store in the parking lot on pieces of cardboard. I went over with two other store ownerss to discuss the fact that they were attracting rats.. They just turned away from us and kept going..."Custom..Custom". We finally had to call the board of health and by that time, we all had to get the exterminators in between the roaches and the rats. I got along so well with my vietnamese friend and my japanese friend, but the Koreans were truly odd in the retail situation. A nail place had a village elder as the owner. He was the one who told the others what to do and seemed to be in charge of all five of the stores in the center. He had a daughter in college and she and I got along really well, but he was not a nice person and I had trouble with him, because he loved to come in front of my store, bring a chair and smoke.. His shop was five away from mine, but I had an awning.. Smoking in a book store or even sitting out front, because I sometimes had my door open is not a nice thing. He was a major reason for my final retirement. So I have some strong feelings about retail. Illegals.. I was reading the other day there is a huge oriental underground that comes here and you never even see them, since they stay in ethnic enclaves and work in sweat shops. Anyone know for sure??

Here's a great column with some good points about immigration:

http://tinyurl.com/s5jw2

Interesting article, Bev. Thanks.

Here's a link to a Newsweek article from the 5 June 2006 issue. It's about how Mexico treats its illegals or "guest workers" from Central America. Interesting reading.

I am sorry I havent been able to paricipate as much as I wanted in this discussion YOU REALLY CHOSE a winner here for participation and thoughtful posts. I am sure everyone would agree it has been a great two weeks. I dont know if you want to continue it for a bit longer but whatever you decide I want you to know I appreciate your taking on this discussion for CM and making it one of the best ..anna

Anna I must run up to Waco this morning and will be back this evening - I can do a wrap up and catch everyone who has posted then - you are so correct - everyone gave their best in the past two weeks -

I do not know if any opinions have been changed but I know I was pleased to hear views held by others especially those who are looking at this issue from a different perspective than I have been seeing it. I at least have a better idea of their concerns and how they see the problems that illegal immigration is creating -

And yes, we talked much about the illegal immigration coming up from our Southern Border however what was great to hear about is that they are not our only source of illegal immigration -

Till this evening -

a discussion on ABSTRACTION in ART. i'm in computer art and painting but no one but me knows or cares about abstraction except perhaps Mary Z. Is there anyone else? perhaps a two week thingee in here to explore that possibility. . . ? Claire see my latest post in computer generated art. Nothing but PRETTY is understood by these people. They are kind but . . .well . . .but. no curious minds in there. are there anywhere?

who believes in OPEN BORDERS. do anyone else read the article at the top of this discussion titled "End the Immigration War and Open the Borders" or to be found here.

open borders

Marybo in particular it is not unthought of to consider this simple solution. Yes I do believe in it and hope enough others do too so as to consider it and ACT ON IT. . . . .Claire

Claire - You have messages in the Art discussions....

Sun

Down to the end of this discussion we have additional information that reflects a point of view - rah rah - y'all did add so much to the conversation -

It could be that Congress is not the place where this problem will be solved since they really do not sit down and brainstorm solutions up there in Washington D.C. But then that is what I am seeing with this issue - the nation wants a legal solution prompted by political motive to solve a social and economic problem that may be better solved by business leaders.

Well we knew there would be no solutions when we started this conversation. As soon as there is word what the next conversation will be in Curious Minds there will be a message announcing the topic here and in Book Bytes, the email announcement that Pat sends to us and in the Book Nook, the meeting place for readers.

I've enjoyed the two weeks and yes, I must admit that I see some problems now that I was fluffing off before this conversation. Solutions to me are still not clear in my mind but then I think it takes a group brainstorming to come up with a new practical approach.

Winsum have you made your request in the Book Nook - please, if you haven't that is where the Discussion Leaders learn of your interests. Winsum is there special software needed to do art on the computer?

As to a discussion of abstract art that would be interesting - analyzing the various abstract artists work for a greater appreciation of their art piece and even giving our critique of some of the museums we have visited holding the work of abstract artists.

You certainly gave me an idea and if there is no burning issue the next time my turn comes up for Curious Minds that is a subject I would enjoy - please email me your ideas so that I could put together a plan with links that we could all enjoy.

Thanks everyone for participating - Barbara

Barbara, this has been a very timely topic for discussion. Thanks for bringing it to us, and for being such a great discussion leader. I think it's made us all think. And that's always a good thing.

thanks MaryZ - really enjoyed your participation...

is full of good stuff right now I've been do-leading with Emma and once again find myself "odd man out" since I do mostly abstraction and most of the people inthere like traditional representaional. I may have bugged a couple of them into trying abstraction/nonobjecivr as well and oneof them did some research already on it. go have a look. I'm having eye problems right now that make it painful for me to use the computer, but I touch type and challenge yo all to figure out what I emant by all the typos. . .see yo there I hope. it's a nice group and an interesting subject. . . Claire

Thanks Barb, This was a learning experience for me. However.....in this country.....

I STILL WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHY THE HELL I HAVE TO PRESS "1" FOR ENGLISH?

Great job Barbara, and such a timely issue and such great posts from everybody, just a super experience, well done!

I would love to learn more about abstract art. My interests have mostly been of art done by the Old Masters, but I like abstrats very much except that I know absolutely nothing about it. If I could learn from it, that would be great.

Maryboree - the Computer Generated Art discussion here has gotten into abstract art. Does your community have a college or a community college? They usually have continuing ed courses or the option to audit courses, and you could take a freshman course in Art History. Those are such great sources of information. (In TN, folks over 60 can audit classes at any state school for free!)

Curious Minds look at Antiques

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb

"A Quarter Well Spent: One Saturday morning a few years ago, my husband and I decided to go to a sale sponsored by a nearby academy to raise money for charity. It was crowded and I got a few items that I still cherish, but the most wonderful thing I purchased was a turquoise bowl about 14" in diameter with wonderful flowers and geometric design around the bowl. I had picked it up, but put it down because it was broken even though it was marked 25 cents.
I just couldn't get it out of my mind so I went back to the table and picked it up again to show my husband who said to "put it back." Needless to say, I didn't listen to him and purchased it. As we were leaving, a man ran after me and asked to see the bowl. He said he knew it was an l8th-century bowl from Persia. A few years later, I went to school to learn pottery restoration and repaired the bowl. It is my favorite item in my curio cabinet and the best 25 cents I ever spent." — Marion, Aliquippa, Pennsylvania

ANTIQUES ROADSHOW

First post this topic

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Bill H

Hello, and welcome to the Curious Mind's discussion about antiques. I would also like to include classics in this discussion.

I'm sure we all have our own favorite antiques and classics we would like to talk about, or at least we have admired some of these decorative objects or the like produced in a former period and valuable because of their beauty or design. Perhaps they are of value because they act as a link to our younger days and the memories we cherished. Please join in and tell us about your favorites.

Our Pat has made a brand new Curious Mind's trolley that will take us to Antique land. So board the trolley early and chose a good seat. Don't get left behind because the trolley departs on schedule.

Pat, thank you for the heading and the new trolley car.

Bill H

Thank you for the cute heading. I really like the chair and the trolley car. I have a question.

I love pretty cups, dishes, knickknacks. The word "antique" frightens me. Do you have to be rich to buy or go places to find these keepsakes? Am I out of place just being here? I did read about the cup in the heading. The woman paid a quarter for it.

This weekend there will be a "Hundred Mile Yard Sale" on US Highway 34 across central Illinois. It starts at Princeton, IL, which has several good antiques shops and ends at the Mississippi River. Then all along the way, on the highway in the rural areas and in the small towns, there will be sellers out to show their "stuff."

Our farm is right on the highway and we have opened the pasture for several of the neighbors to set up tables. I'm sure there will be some antiques as well as collectibles. One neighbors is disbursing her collection of Macomb and Peoria pottery. There will plenty of parking.

Our community gives a hundred yard sale too. I have been to it. I bought a candy dish shaped like a turkey. I love it. I use it every Thanksgiving. Mary Z, could you describe the location of the hundred yard sale in our area?

Wow! A hundred mile sale...sounds like heaven. I've recently started collecting Fairy Lamps. First because I was wondering what they were and second because I like the way they look. They aren't very expensive now so that is another plus for me. I was wondering if anyone knows the history or age of this type of candle holder.

I have never heard of a "Fairy Lamp." Is it a lamp and candleholder? It sounds cute. I wish we could see it.

This site has some photos of Fairy Lamps

and it appears there is a Fairy Lamp Club now for collectors.

Barbara, thank you. Those are gorgeous.

Hats, there are 2-3 of those sales that come through Chattanooga. The biggest, I guess, is The World's Longest Yard Sale that goes down US 127 from central Kentucky, through Tennessee, into Georgia and Alabama. That's in August, I think. There's just been one that goes down U.S. 11 (and/or #411) in Tennessee. I don't go to these sales, so I'm really not up on it. Chattanooga is definitely a "hotbed" of such events, though.

Hats, don't let the term "antique" scare you. If you go to an "Antique Store" in some high-dollar neighborhood, then, yes, you can expect to pay big bucks for things. But you're just as likely to find something old and/or charming that you just love at a neighborhood garage/yard sale. Or at one of the local antique malls where various folks have set up booths. They're more than likely selling things that they bought at somebody's garage sale.

IMO, if you're not making an investment in a major period piece, you don't have to spend a lot of money to find something that works in your house or fills a spot in your collection.

Mary Z, you said just what I was hoping to here. I can't remember which of those Longest Yard Sales we went too. The hills went up and down. I couldn't go very far either. We enjoyed it. We haven't gone again.

Barbara thanks for the information on that Fairy Lamp club. I'm going to check it out.

fr example I picked up five small pine chairs at a garage sale about twenty years ago and still have four of them my large son sat down suddenly in one that had been repaired at one time or another crack across the seat and it died on the spot. I'd love to show you what they look like. I think they must be american folk art or something like. I don't know the words for various periods or types but hope to pick up a little of that here. . .claire P.S. I went and looked at the fairy lamps and this one is a beautiful job of glass blowing. I saved three for my slide show program. that's one way to collect. I wish I could show it directly but this is it

I've loved antiques/country furniture since I was a young bride in the late 50s. We lived in Maine and with friends I attended auctions, buying really cheap pine and maple pieces that dealers didn't want. I paid $2 for a Boston rocker in bad shape which my husband repaired and after I painted, a friend stenciled for me. I have other pieces that are still in use from those days. After we left Maine the first time and moved to California, my husband saw a couple of lift-top commodes similar to the ones I'd bought for about $10 and they were being sold for several hundred. He said we should have bought a truckload of junk to sell in California!

I now have some pieces from my grandmother's home and also glass and china cups that she'd collected. These are treasures that I absolutely love, but my children will probably sell when I am gone. None are that valuable except for the sentimental value--and the decorating look that I like. Warm, cozy, comfortable, and country without frills and frou-frou.

My sister loves antiques also and she and a friend do lots of looking and buying/selling in shops. You need to go often and look through a lot of junk, but treasures are to be found at flea markets, antique shops and malls. The looking is part of the fun. When Anne and I get together, we always hit some of these places for an afternoon of looking--and sometimes buying. She found pieces of my china (Johann Haviland-Bavaria, Blue Garland) which has been discontinued, called me and I was able to fill out pieces that I needed. Sue

Hats, the chair is beautiful? but did you notice the watch? My grandmother bought my dad a watch much like it when he was a very young man. I still Have it and cherish it very much. And, Hats, you are never out place being anywhere.

Pat and Annie3, my community never did have a hundred yard garage sale. However, there is a garage sale being advertised on the next block.

Barbara thank you for the link to Fairy Lamps. We never had one but my grandmother did have gas lamps on each side of the living room mantel. They were built right into the wall. However, we never lit them because of the hazard they presented.

MaryZ. no, you don't have to be rich to have an antique or a classic. My wife's aunt gave her a pice of Depression Glass and I have sitting on my mantle. Claire, sure you can bring pictures here, as long as they are in keeping with the subject matter. Thank you for the picture.

Spring Creek Farm, again I refer to my grandmother. She had Christmas Tree ornaments that are now , for me, priceless. They have to be a hundred years or close to it. I have them wrapped in newspaper. Don't put them on the tree any more.

Bill H

I just love those fairy lamps. Beautiful! I've never heard of them before. Thanks for the pictures! I love old glass lamps.

I found out something exciting last year about the beautiful old house I grew up in. It was on a college campus. We didn't own it; it was college housing. The house was built in 1861 by the Mitchell family. The wife was a Tiffany - the sister of Louis Comfort Tiffany. Apparently, she told her husband she wouldn't move into his house unless he built a cottage nearby for her family to use when they visited from New York City. So he built it. That was "my" house - a lovely summer cottage. What is the kitchen today was the studio of Louis Comfort Tiffany when he visited summers. He was the Tiffany who made the beautiful stained glass lamps, windows, and murals. He made some of his stained glass items in "my" kitchen and I never knew about it my whole life. I just visited his glass mural "The Dream Garden" in Philadelphia. What a beautiful thing!

Marni

on their side. the shack wo't let tus edit.

I hadn't noticed the watch until you mentioned it, but I have a stem wound pocket watch that was my Grandfather's railroad watch. My Dad never really knew his father as he was killed in a railroad accident when Daddy was 6 months old. Daddy gave me the watch not long before he died.

I have some old Christmas tree ornaments, too, but not as old as yours. I have one my husband's mother made for him when he was a baby and also some other old ones from his home when he was young. I still put them on my tree. I also put every ornament that my husband and I bought during the 44 years of our marriage--and he added special ones every year he lived. Sue

I did notice that watch. It is a treasure. Sometimes you know a treasure by just a first look. And thank for the very kind words. I am really just enjoying this discussion. Thinking and talking about Fairy Lamps, cherished watches all else is just so exciting.

I remember going pass a shop with my mother long, long ago. The shop wasn't where my mother was going. She was headed to a fabric store. Anyway, in the window of this shop, now I know it must have been an antique dealer's store, there was a ship in a bottle.

Like all girls I loved my dad so much. I knew he just had to have that ship in a bottle. My mother took me inside the store. She or I asked the price of the ship in the bottle. The man said it would cost 75. Well, I couldn't believe the bargain. I had that much and more for an allowance. $.75??? How had the dusty ship in the bottle been in the store window for so long??? I wondered.

Somehow my mother made the man repeat the price. He must have seen my face. This time he said $75.00. For years we laughed at that story. No, my dad didn't receive the bottle. I bet somebody else bought that bottle very quickly. We never did go back in that store. My mother seemed to walk faster when she came close to the store.

My mother did love estate sales, rummage sales. Pretty soon my father came to love going to these sales in churches and other places too. Lots of fun. We found some treasures too.

Sue, I love Christmas tree ornaments. Remember the ones with the water bubbling through the stem? I haven't seen those in years. These new ornaments don't break. Some are just silk covered styrofoam balls. The ones years ago looked so fragile. You didn't have to drop one. You could put your finger through one and cause the ornament to break. Those ornaments were that delicate.

Winsum, I love the Pine Chairs. The wood is beautiful.

Marni, I love Tiffany Glass. It's so beautiful. Living in that house or cottage makes you related to the Tiffanys. I need to come and shake your hand. That is so exciting!

I collect glass and crystal.. I inherited a lot of really nice cut glass and have been collecting antique wine glasses for years and years. I have a very few pieces, mostly inherited that are valuable, but love each and every one I have and grieve that neither of my daughters in law like this sort of thing. However I have a new hope since I have a granddaughter who since she was teeny ( she is now 10) has loved the glass. She is so very very careful and we drag out individual pieces when she visits and we talk about it, what it is and why it was made in a certain way. Then we carefully wash,rinse in vinegar water and buff until it shines and shines. She is very funny indeed with them. She learned that Nana always lines the sink with a heavy towell when she washes glass so it wont chip and why I rinse in vinegar or lemon. So.. I am getting a lot of joy with the glass once again. I have nothing but antique for bedroom furniture, all inherited from my husbands Mother. Love, but sort of a pain to dust..Victorian, which means way too many curliques.

Hats, we always had a string of Bubble Lights on our tree. They were the absolute favorite of the girls. We no longer put up a tree, but I think each of the girls now has a string of bubble lights for her own (they are being made again). One year they got me a couple of single ones on plugs to use as night lights.

We have a lot of cut glass from grandmothers, etc., and my mother's crystal. Two of the girls are interested in having it, so it'll be hanging around the family for at least one more generation. I've told the girls over and over to be careful about what they put out for the great yard sale when they dispose of our belongings after we're gone. Some of it is just junk, but some is probably valuable. I've told them to get somebody knowledgeable to look at things before they get thrown away.

Mary Z, that's the name "Bubble Lights." What is the name of the museum near the Houston with all of the beautiful glass? It begins with "H." I can't think of the name.

I love beautiful glass. I have seen dishes in a beautiful ruby color. Is that Depression Glass? I think that color might cost a great deal of money.

I love music boxes too.

Hats, the Houston Museum IS the one with all the glass. The art museum is the Hunter Museum.

The Houston Museum

The Hunter Museum of American Art

In 1989 we had a big earthquake here in Northern California. My china cabinet crashed head first onto the floor, and all the china, figurines, glassware and dinnerware that I had inherited from my mother, was gone forever.

The good thing that came from this disaster, is that I started going to antique shops, shows and estate sales, trying to find and replace the items that were lost. Needless to say, I starting finding all sorts of OTHER related things, besides what I was looking for. Within a year, I had collected so much, that I had to start selling things off again, and decided to go into the antique business. I rented space in a nice antique store, (a shop within a shop) and that started me off on a whole new "career". (actually more of a hobby gone out of control! lol!)

I specialized only in American Dinnerware and china at first. (putting together full sets.) But this led into related stuff like glassware, old table linens, and kitchenware like bowls, water jugs, etc. (Or just about anything else that I couldn't resist!) I kept the business going until about 2000. By then, ebay was in full swing, which had caused sales and prices to drop in the antique shops. So it became a money loser at that time. I have sold off hundreds of items on ebay over the years, but still have some things left to either sell or keep. Although I don't buy much anymore at all, it's still alot of fun to hunt for the elusive stuff, or to go to the antique shows and just enjoy looking.

The Houston! It just slipped my mind. Mary Z,thank you for the link.

When I was a youngster, my first train set was not an electric train. No, it was a WIND UP. I didn't get an electric train till much later. Now this train was not for under the tree but just a play thing. If not an antique, I suppose it could be considered a classic. I made sure I didn't wind to tightly but through time the spring did play out.

I visited ebays web site looking for antique trains and Christmas ornaments. To see more of these use this link. Now when you get there click on the picture. It will come up a little larger but you must click on the new image again to really make it big. I'm sure you will find other abstracts there you will enjoy.

Classic toys and Christmas Ornaments

The graphic is from the ebay web site.

Bill H

I still have a string of bubble lights. When Bob was living he liked to put them on the tree, but I have just kept them in the box. I also have about a half dozen paper shades that came from Bob's family. You put them on the large old fashioned bulbs and when the light warms up, the shades revolve. These were a treasure from his childhood and I don't have the heart to give them away. Maybe my kids will find a buyer when I'm gone.

I think our boys will hire an estate sales person to sell the things that I have collected that they don't want to keep. We did that for Bob's mother and I also had the estate sales family to come down and buy some of my things for their shop when I left the farm. Nothing really valuable, though, as I kept most of the things I treasure. I did, to my sorrow, let most of my bottle collection go. I only kept a dozen. We had dug in old dumps and found about 100+ when we lived in Maine. also found some floating in the Gulf when we lived in Key West. I love colorful glass and keep the bottles I have sitting on window sills. Sue

Maryz, thank you for those two links. I loved the graphic of the museum. Is that a gothic design?

Bill H

Bill, I assume you mean the Houston Museum? It's in an old house. It's directly across from the Hunter Museum, an interesting contrast.

The photograph of the Hunter Museum shows the newest wing - there are three sections - one in an old house, the mid-60s "modern" wing, and the new stainless steel wing opened last year.

Sue, we had some little plastic cylinders with "fans" in them that we hung over the regular lights. The fan then whirled around. Loved those, too. John and I don't do any decorating any more - we gave all the stuff to the kids.

Does anybody remember Russel Wright pottery? My aunt had a large, complete service, and gave it to us in the mid1950s as a wedding present. That's still my "good" dinnerware, used at Thanksgiving and Christmas. Our youngest has claimed that as the stuff of ours that she wants more than anything else. It can still be found at junk and antique stores, with reproductions everywhere. I just found on line that Bed, Bath, and Beyond is carrying a new line of similar products.

I usually watch this program on PBS... But as we only came to the US in 1959 and a lot of stuff was lost during WW2 I don;t think there any antiques here in the house (only me) BUT come to think of it I do have china doll house dolls from the 30's one baby with an open mouth, it had a pacifier originally and two adults, one had real hair all very worn no more than 3 inches high..We brought very little with us and any crystal or china was left behind. My collection, such as it is, includes ethnic dolls. Colkot

Bill H The windup train is adorable. My grandson would love it even now. I am sure it is an antique or a classic. Thank you for sharing it.

Colkot, I love dolls. I love ethnic doll too, very special. I remember a store called a Doll Hospital. I suppose there aren't Doll Hospitals around.

Marilyne, It was very interesting reading about your business. Ebay did hurt a lot of businesses.

I inherited from my adopted grandmother a small doll. It is German as she was, had a china head, etc. I took it to a doll hospital about 10 years ago to have it buffed up a bit. She cleaned it up, took off the old clothes and told me to carefully save them, made it a new outfit like the old and told me it was worth well over 100.00. It has a name, but I cannot remember. China head,hands and feet. body is limp and covered with cloth. Very small , many 8". I keep it in my china cabinet.

Another thing I especially like are the old cotton table cloths with imprinted pictures on them. I got my first one at a rummage sale when my kids were small to use as a picnic table cloth. I look for them whenever I'm at a thrift store, or rummage sale, or flea market. They look pretty on a shelf in my linen closet...kind of a useless collection I guess but it's fun to search them out.

I'm probably the last person on earth who should visit this discussion, as I never watch Antiques Roadshow and my eyes frequently glaze over when people start talking about their "things." However, many of my friends love antiques, just about everyone in one of my bridge clubs -- it's the only group I know where everyone enters a house and turns over the china to see where it's from. Two friends deal -- have booths at an antique mall in St. Mary, MO and one of them also on ebay (she specializes in McCoy pottery.) They spend a lot of weekends on the road going to flea markets flung far and wide.

But, anyway, when you're surrounded by those who like them it's hard not to get caught up. I learn much from them and I'm finding lots of interest here. Someone mentioned "depression glass. Is that the same as "carnival glass." I remember years ago (way before computers and ebay) my mother telling about a friend who was so surprised when someone from out of state called and said he'd heard she had "Carnival glass" and offered her $1000 for one piece, sight unseen.

Bill, interesting site with the Christmas ornaments. My folks' tree always had some of that fruit hanging on it. I wonder whatever happened to those.

We used to go to antique fairs and find things pre-1900's. Now we go and find lots of things I grew up with, things that my mother still owns - stuff from the 1950's. It makes me feel old! My mother saved everything. She has my old Jill dolls and Ginny dolls and my brothers' trucks. They sure bring back memories. Old toys often are worth so much, espcially if they have the original packages. The boxes are not something I ever save.

Bill, you mentioned how much you treasure your grandmother’s Christmas ornaments – oh, PLEASE use them on your Christmas tree!!! Or at least display them in some safe place at Christmas. They are worth nothing at all wrapped up in paper in a box where nobody will be able to see them or enjoy them! I have always used the few good antiques I have –

I rocked my babies (and my grandson) in a wooden cradle from the 1800s. My kids (now in their mid 30s) ate their peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches at a table covered with antique lace, Our silver butterdish still goes from the refrigerator to table every day and I still put wild daisies in the cut-glass crystal vase on the kitchen table. My almost 2 year old grandchild already knows what it's like to eat with the sterling antique child's fork and spoon. It's the scratch or pulled thread or bite mark on these antiques that makes them precious. Yes, through the years, some things have been broken or tarnished or have fallen apart because of cosntant use, but I have no regrets.

- And Marni, I know what you mean about feeling old – when people talk about mid-century being “vintage” they mean the 1950s now, not the 1850s. Lordy. New York City antique shops actively seek out those formica top tables with curved aluminum legs! (You know – the ones we all have down in the cellar to fold laundry on...) ~JudyS.

judywolfs - YES! I agree with you 100 per cent, that we should use and enjoy our antiques or any vintage items that we might have inherited or collected. I use all of my many sets of 1930's and '40's dinnerware or china, with matching crystal stemware. Also the old Fenton glass dresser sets are prominently displayed in the bedrooms along with lovely old quilts and bedspreads. Even my two old telephones, (one is a candlestick style with rotary dial), are plugged in and in working order. In my living room is a beautiful 1942 Zenith console radio, that comes in loud and clear. (AM only, of course.) that's only a short list of what I use all the time. I also have lots of vintage pottery vases in every shape and size, that I cycle through on my living room mantle.

What are you thinking - hiding that formica topped table in the basement! LOL! We enjoy eating at our yellow/chrome table every day, in our dinette. I do admit that I couldn't deal with those worn out old chairs though, so bought some brand new ones that match perfectly.

Annie - I also have a huge stack of those colorful printed tablecloths from the 1940's and 50's. I especially like the ones with the maps from different states or cities. But the floral, fruit, or patterned ones are wonderful too. I have mine displayed in my dinette, stacked on an old tea cart. As you said, they are pleasant to look at because they're so cheerful.

I still use the ones my children made with the Polish Scouts some 40 years ago. BUT... the Polish Scouts here in Chicago decorate the Christmas Tree at the Museum of Science & Industry with traditional hand made Polish Ornaments made from eggshells, walnuts,paper,beads and straw.Eggs are blown and can be made into various artifacts such as jugs decorated with papercuts,soldier's heads,various birds such as a stork.swan or rooster. Walnut shells are colored & glued on to cut cards to make fish, snowmen, birds and so on.White paper is cut into strips amd used to make stars,star mobiles..with straws & beads.also other ornaments, All you need is a little know how & some imagination. Although they may not qualify as antiques, they are very beautiful, and like many of the traditional Polish costumes are reflective of the various regions of Poland. I was fascinated with the papercuts which I bought very cheaply in Poland in 1978.(I was a summer school student) After giving a number away as gifts I had 7 custom framed in circular porthole type frames which are hanging on the soffit above the cabinets in my kitchen. Very similar to decorative plates... Colkot

My sister-in-law collects those old table cloths and uses them on her kitchen table. They certainly are cheery. No wonder she has trouble finding them. So many others are collecting the same thing.

Yup, my mom still has her formica-topped kitchen table - down in the basement. We used it the whole time I was growing up. Mom couldn't part with it (or anything else.) Now I laugh when I see them for sale at antique shops.

Have you noticed how so many new things now have that retro look? Like the bathroom fixtures with the white porcelain handles? And all the appliances are having a more rounded shape like things were made in the '30's - like toasters? Even cars - like the PT Cruiser. Vintage. That's a word you hear a lot now. Vintage.

a cart iwht an old man in it drawn by two horses is one of them and then there are bookends . . .everything looks chinese to me. will dig em out for this discussion. I don't know anything about them but like the look and keep them around. the horse and cart is in three separate pieces. . .claire

here's a bookend. . .I've got a better picture of that but you can see the size this way.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

and the cart

Judy, you mentioned refrigerator and that jogged my memory of the old ice box. Remember how we had to put the sign in the window with the pounds of how much we needed showing so the iceman could chip a block of ice for us?

Perhaps I will use those old ornaments as a display this Christmas. Good suggestion.

Marilyne, you are so fortunate to have all those wonderful objects of the past. We had a for mica top kitchen table and I just gave it away. How sad.

Claire, thank you for those beautiful pictures.

Judy, you mentioned refrigerator and that jogged my memory of the old ice box. Remember how we had to put the sign in the window with the pounds wanted so the iceman could chip a blox of ice for us?

Perhaps I will use those old oraments as a display this Christmas. Good suggestion.

Marilyne, you are so fortunate to have all those wonderful objects of the past. We had a formica top kitchen table and I just gave it away. How sad.

Claire, thank you for those beautiful pictures.

I still have the cut glass vases and fruit bowel my grandmother brought from England with her when she was a very young woman and just married to Grand Dad. He traveled to the U.S. first to take a job that was offered to him and, when he got enough money together for her passage, he sent for her. I have those cut glass vases sitting on top of the TV and when the sunlight hits them just right oh how they sparkle.

I still have the first birthday present my wife bought me back in 1951. . It is a Lord Elgin wrist watch and has 16K gold trimming and back. I kept it in mint condition all these years, and it still keeps reasonably good time. It seems so much nicer than some of the watches of today.

When I was a youngster, Mom bought me a Micky Mouse wrist watch. Do you remember them.? Now that is really going back a ways.

Bill H

Jeriron1, this is a CM discussion about antiques. Your political posts are way out of line in this discussion. Please visit our Political forums for posts of this nature.

Bill H

Winsom, I love those pieces – the ones you said looked Chinese – especially the cart with horses. They make me very curious. Where did they come from? Do you know anything about them? I think the most valuable item I own is an old music box – it’s known as a symphonium, I believe, and I have about 20 large tin “records” that play on it. I got it from my mother, who received it from her antique collector sister with instructions to never, never sell it. I don’t think I would ever sell it, I just love it. I remember dancing to the wonderful music in my mother’s living room when I was a very little girl, 20 years later I watched my own little daughter do the same thing. Now, that’s a keeper. Bill, I certainly DO remember when the iceman used to come around, (but o my grandmother's house, not to our house) We had a freihofer man too - he sold baked goods from his horse-drawn wagon.

Today's USA Today had an article about the book "Rejuvenile" by Chris Noxon, which describes the new "playful" adult who tries to retain some qualities of childhood. What caught my interest was the quote below, referring to "retro" toys from the "1980's."

"• There is a surge in retro toys such as Strawberry Shortcake. Popular in the 1980s, Strawberry Shortcake was relaunched in this century with the line "Who knew you and your daughter would have the same best friend?" "

Someone earlier remarked about how strange it was to consider "the 1950's" as retro. Here's your children's retro. Does this mean "Barbie" will someday be relegated to the shelf alongside Shirley Temple?

Speaking of dolls, does anyone remember the small collectable "Storybook Dolls," each dressed in its own unique costume. They were always packaged in boxes with big pink polka dots. A popular gift at birthday parties.

I have two storybook dolls, one in a pink box and one in a blue box. I played with them a lot as a child and I still love them today. Of course I don't keep them in the boxes but on a shelf in my grandchilds overnight room where he can play with them and often does. The eyes especially fascinate him. I believe they were also called Nancy Ann dolls. I have Little Red Riding Hood and I no longer recall the name of the other one.

Speaking of old ice boxes....They were in vogue when I got married (late 60's). To help furnish my apartment when I was a poor newlywed, I found a medium sized one for $35 at an antique shop - it had been painted about a million times. I stripped it down, stained and polished it, and still use it today in my dining room to store my liquor bottles. I've seen the same old ice boxes, refinished, in antique shops for over $1,000 since.

I just read something interesting in a history book I got out of the town library - a history of my town, Windsor, CT. It said Seth Thomas lived in Windsor for 20 years and made his clocks there. I had no idea. I wonder if it was the section that is East Windsor today because his partner, Eli Terry, was from East Windsor.

I read on the web that Seth Thomas made some clock parts from the wood of the "mountain laurel tree." I found that pretty interesting. Mountain laurel is the state flower of CT. It's a bush, but it can grow to be quite large. I bet it's the same thing as the "mountain laurel tree." I never pictured anyone making wooden things out of the wood of a mountain laurel bush.

I am enjoying each and every one of these posts! I don't have time right now to comment, but hope to get back! I don't mean to sound like a Know-It-All, but I am familiar with just about everything you all are describing--however, never saw bookends like the horses--what kind of metal do you think they are?

Lenalu

Oh yes indeed, Pedln, I remember storybook dolls! There were also very similar dolls representing various nations and femal occupations. I particularly remember the nurse, the bride, the nun and the Irish doll. We also had a red riding hood who somehow lost her hair and was bald as a cue ball. We 5 sisters had about 20 - 30 of them, which we played with endlessly. They were probably our very favorite childhood toys. ~JudyS

and 50 posts later I am ready to say something ..This is like a road down memory lane. Who was it that said to USE your antiques? I truly agree and it wont be my children or my daughters in law that love my "stuf" but I do have hopes with my granddaughters. In fact I have let them choose some of the things I have and we have put tape on the bottom with thier names ..

The things from my mothers home I wanted were lost when she had to move to a senior home while we were living in Europe. My brother had stored some things in his garage but moisture etc ruined them all. I do have some wonderful antiques from my husbands family , cut glass, sterling platters and bowls , both of my daughters have antique beds A four poster with rope springs and a spool bed from their paternal grandmother's family I think they are over 200 years old.

And my collection of Christmas ornaments that is over 60 years old as well as lovely ones from a dear friend adorn my fake Christmas tree that has been up and decorated since Christmas 2004 and I have no intention of taking it down My grandchildren love it and even my children are beginning to think it is not so strange.In any case they tell stories about my eccenticities !!!

I have given some things to my one son who truly appreciates antiques ..a cast iron bank again from my husbands family William Tell shooting an apple off of his son's head actually the coin which then disappears somewhere I would have to go look at it ..He is keeping it safely and hopes to help pay for his now 6 years old son college with what he gets when he sells it .He also recieved a book about George Washington passed down in my husband's family since it was first published .My husband's family were related to Robert Morris , the finacier of the Revolution and each generation has given it to the next ..My husband's aunt passed it on to our son .each person adding thier signature to the flyleaf.

When people with children visit they often worry about them breaking something I do keep the most valuable /or the most beautiful safely in curio cabinets but do have things setting around However I do have a rule I HAVE NOTHING MORE VALUABLE THAN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN MY HOME. I am cautious but if someone breaks something by accident I am not going to make them feel guilty ..

I love the fairy lamps although I have never seen them I do recall the wonderful oil lamps my Aunt Mary had in her farm home Large painted glass globes ..they were gorgeous and the Tiffany chandelier another aunt had over her dining room table ..All of my relatives had antiques although it was so many years ago I am sure they only considered them useful.

Bill this is a great subject ..I am glad I had time today to stop and read the posts and spend some lovely minutes remembering ...anna

Anna, lovely--enjoyed your comments! I agree with you about not making children or anyone else feel guilty; anyone who breaks anything feels so bad anyway--

And your Christmas tree still up! Great idea. I love it!

Annafair: What an interesting story of being related to Robert Morris!

I don't think I'm quite as liberated as you and Lenalu are about children breaking antiques and other things in my house. I remember an incident many years ago when my good friend and next door neighbor brought her spoiled 3-year old over for a visit. We were sitting in the living room where I have some antiques including an antique table, a gift from my mother-in-law, that we use for a coffee table and some antique fire tools next to the fireplace.

The little boy grabbed the poker (brass and iron) and started to whack my coffee table with it. I started having a heart attack! I waited for a moment to give my friend a chance to take it away from her son and say something to him. She didn't! He whacked my table again with the poker. I grabbed it from him and told him not to do that because he was hurting the table. My friend took her son in a snit and marched out. She didn't speak to me for months. She said nobody was to discipline her son but her. (She was very liberal and her son was very spoiled.) Well, he grew up to be a nice person anyway.

Marni, you certainly did the right thing, grabbing the fireplace poker out of that 3 year old's hands! What could his mother have been even thinking? Once in a while, an accident will happen, but when I say that I let my kids (and everybody else in my house) USE my antiques, I don't mean I let them abuse them! Wow, I don't know if your neighbor was more thoughtless of you or neglectful of her son at the time - it's a toss-up. ~JudyS

That was hardly an accident ..I am sure I would have responded quickly to a deliberate act ...and I wouldnt have waited for your friend to say something ...I fear we wouldnt have been friends if she felt YOU WERE WRONG But I dont feel that accidents should be punished .. I once attended a large anniversary party where children were included and when one small little boy about 4 spilled his cup of punch on the carpet ..the hostess came totally unglued ..I just dont think Children should be punished for something you would forgive an adult visitor for..but meaness is another cup of tea! at amy age....love reading about everyones special collections ..anna

and it was my husband's family that was related .. in fact his name was Robert Morris Alexander and one of his relatives did an extensive geneology of the family I remember the first woman to come over and marry into the family was named Mary Grey and I am not sure but it seemed it was late 1600's or early 1700's My family came over from Ireland because of the potato faminr and what they had were purchases they made after they had settled and began having children ..but even then they did have some lovely things ..since they admired beautiful things I am sure they never thought they would be antiques and collectibles.. anna

You always have such interesting things to say. Sorry we won't meet up at the Montreal Bash, How great to be able to trace family history.. My pet peeve with strange kids are those who go into drawers and other places they are not supposd to be in. What were their parents thinking of! And the poker...! Best to all Colkot

Talking about kids who deliberately destroy things reminds me of an ad on TV currently - a car ad. I don't remember the brand. But a children's birthday party is going on and the kids are all running around the yard in a frenzy. One little boy with a baseball bat gives the car parked in the driveway a whack and then runs on screaming with the rest of the kids. The birthday dad is standing nearby smiling. Something like that.

The ad is to show how indestructible the car door is, I think.

I get irritated every time I see that ad because of the little brat. I just want to yank the bat out of his hands and send him home - maybe whack him with the bat first.

I guess it's not a very good ad if I can't remember the brand and can't even remember what the ad is for!

I agree, I have seen the ad.

While we are on the subject of antiques and classics lets not forget some of the fine old-time automobiles.

This 1927 Buick -- graphic courtesy of the prewar Buick website--is the same model year Buick my dad owned, only his was dark blue in color. It was three years old when he bought it. But it made no difference to us. We were so glad to have it especially during those depression years. Not many folks had cars in those days .

How proud Mom and I would be on Sunday when Dad brought the car out of the garage for us to go to church on Sunday or to take Mom grocery shopping. I would sit up front and watch every move Dad made as he shifted gears and guided the car with that big steering wheel. No automatic transmissions or power steering in those days.

When we returned from church or shopping that car went right back into the garage behind the house. No sitting out for that automobile. I still nostalgically remember that fine old auto.

I'm sure you folks can remember some of the automobiles your family had.

To see more pictures of these Buicks visit this web site.

Buicks

Click on the pictures to enlarge them.Bill H

My family never owned an automobile We lived in the city where public transportation was cheap and frequent and used taxis for important things like funerals, parties etc I can remember it was only 10cents for a taxi and that covered all who were riding at that time. The driver was usually tipped , especially if he helped unload purchases and my father would always tip when our whole family of 7 or 5 when my older brothers were busy ..and it was a long time before my brothers owned cars They had to return from WWII before they bought one . I do recall my 7th grade teacher had a 1932 or 1933 Chevy Sedan and kept it in a garage She often asked some of her students to accompany her when she went to the cemetary to tend her parents plot. There were usually 3-4 who went along and I was one of them..It was considered and honor and a treat since none of us had a family with a car. She was 88 when she died and that car was still running and intact She had no family and willed it to the young couple who were nieghbors and who looked after her for a number of years.

My uncle always owned Fords and traded them in each year I keep thinking he would only pay 200 dollars each year since the trade in covered the rest of the cost I did have a boy friend who had a coupe with a rumble seat ..since we also had other boy/girl friends ( he remained a friend until he died about 10 years ago) when I had a date with another boy we rode in the rumble seat. I remember it was fun even if my carefully coiffed hairdo would become undone When we double dated and were going to a party His date would sit next to him and I sat on the lap of my date One time I had this new dress with a full circle skirt and it kept blowing up and obscuring his view He said Anna Mae cant you keep that skirt down and I said This skirt was'nt meant to stay down ! And of course was immediately embarrassed as he said I CANT BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT ..everyone laughed and trying to explain it was a full skirt and was supposed to be swishy didnt help!

Now Bill you gave me a memory I had forgotten ..and am laughing to recall those youthful days..thanks .anna

Annafair, that is so funny about your skirt blowing up, etc. It surely was easy to get embarrassed when we were young--sort of reminded me of the song David gave us a link to, sung by Maurice Chevalier--did you listen to it?

Bill, loved seeing the picture and hearing about your family car. And you are so right about no one leaving their car parked outside! We never owned a car after leaving Memphis--we had one then that I was too little to remember. When I was a child I don't recall ever wishing we had one; I learned somehow to accept the fact we had no car--yet I didn't realize we were poor or underprivileged. My brothers knew tha names of any cars that drove by; also we'd stand and just look when one went by; not as exciting as when we heard an airplane go over though!

I really enjoyed watching "Horatio's Drive"--a PBS program---about 2 years ago--it was about this fellow driving a Winton(sp?) cross-country attempting to become the first driver to cross the U.S. I watched it a couple of times and if I ever hear that it will repeat, I would watch it again. He drove from Calif to New York. Anyone else see that?

I watched that show and as you say it was a "goodun" My aunt and uncle who had the Fords had no children and invited a niece or a nephew to accompany them when they took a vacation >When I was 6 it became my turn and from then on I was the one they asked They always said it was because I was so "talky" They did make me keep a journal and menus etc from places we stayed or visited .What I really remember where those two lane highways.Narrow ..these SUV's would NEVER have been able to pass a car since the roads were so narrow and they were always offering to take on people thumbing rides NOW THAT GOES TO SHOW I AM A REAL ANTIQUE MYSELF// Being here makes me look around and see what I have A butterfly table, an a gate legged table. Some absolutely beautiful carved picture frames with pastels painted by some of my husbands relatives back in the early 1800's It's funny you become so used to these things you forgetthey are antiques A mantel clock made in the late 1800's since the company went out of business in 1900 it is made of iron? covered with a faux finish There is a name for it but for the life of me I cant recall it off hand.A limoge fish platter and some other china dishes ...I did some research once and they date to the 1800's I just enjoy thier beauty and tell my children when I die PLEASE get an estate appraiser in ..I hate to think of some of these things going for a pittance ..I have even sold some things to people that collect them since my children wont use them or enjoy them To them they are known as "dust collectors" Everyone including the women in my family are professionals of one kind or the other and no one has time for these things ..They dont really entertain as I did ..they meet thier friends at the country clubs or "in" places. Having friends over means finding something in the freezer that can be called gourmet.Wine is served good ones in stemmed glasses but mostly in lovely glass ones with the crystal ones ignored ..It is a simplar life I guess but I still love to have an elegant luncheon once in a blue moon for some senior ladies like myself..We have a great time we "antiques" and remember the parties from the past.

I am off to have some cheese and crackers with ice water LOL anna

off for the cheese and crackers. just cut off of a huge hunk of sharp cheddar for something to munch with coffee as I sit here with all the antiques. the older the cheese the better. goes for us too. are you writing these days? poetry? Claire

Annafair: I loved your car story!

Here's my antique car. It's my convertible beetle at the body shop:

I'd love to see a picture of the rumble seat you described.

Marni

when I was in college seven of us would pile in somehow to go to football games. no it wasn't mine it belonged to a girl friend and was baby blue. I think we had four in back and three in front somehow. . . claire

Below you will find a link to the car of my embarrassing moment...LOL it looks very much like the one I recall even to the color .. look carefully the rumble seat is open and in back by clicking you can enlarge the picture. Eugene Molla was the young man's name and the first boy I dated ..it seems I have other memories that are "antiques" he gave me a heart shaped box of candy when we were in the 8th grade and brought it to school , placed in on the seat of my desk When the bell rang I hurried to my desk, and sat on the box of candy! Oh My everyone had waited for me to see the candy and of course snickered , laughed and groaned. Thank goodness Miss Hefton was not upset ..I wont say it was my most embarrassing moment I have others!! but it certainly was one of the first, We became good friends and he dated one of my good girl friends and often if I didnt have a date would invite me to go along on thier dates! Times have changed.Those were innocent times. anna

1936 Ford Deluxe V8 coupe w/ rumble seat

and how do I minimize a link ? HELP anyone ...PS Claire Yes I still write poetry, essays , and stories for my children I want them to know what thier mother and NANA did LOL

when I looked at that ford that Judy's was a convertable . . .vertical space contributed to the piling in and provided the space required for all of US. anna was the candy box passed around for all to eat or too squashed. old objects that I or my friends owned remind me of old times otherwise forgotten. . . .claire

http://tinyurl.com/ that's small enough so that I didn't minimize it. I usually use the code for it but this page offers something easier.

claire

I have added your link to my favorites Pat West who is a marvel at these things sent tme the new link which I appreciate ...so much ..Oh and I do remember the station wagons that had real wood on them ..Bill this is a great place for stirring old memories thanks so much for offering it to us..anna

Annafair: What a cool car! Now I see what a rumble seat looks like. Did you notice - it looks like the car has a sunroof!!!

Marnie, not a sun roof, but a composition panel that rotted out if left in the sun too long.

We had a '36 Ford 2-door (gray) - new @ $600.00. I found a receipt for it when we cleaned out mother's house. We drove it (from IL) to Atlantic City in July for a Rotary convention.

No the candy box wasnt passed around and of course while I sat on it I was only 5' and weighed about 90 lbs then and as soon as I felt something under my tush I leaped up to see what it was..In the beginning I didnt even know it was Eugene since it was Valentines day and at that time even 7-8th graders still gave out Valentines. He blushingly admitted he was the guilty guy. It seems while I was talking in the cloakroom he had placed it there and others had seen him do it ..Not only was I embarrassed he was too. His lovely surprise turned out to be an event we both would have loved to have forgotten but in later years laughed at it whole heartedly ..

LOL I realize I could write a book about my mishaps LOL anna

I often wished I had some of the kitchen equipment my mother used .. a meat grinder that clamped to the table, That made the best ham salad for summer meals. I have used some modern ones but they require electricity and a place to use ..with mom's all you needed was a counter or kitchen table. I am trying to envision that kitchen with the wooden ice box and the drain pan underneath that always needed emptying..in winter mother stored non perishables in the ice box and a wooden apple crate ( which I still have) was held in place in the kitchen window and kept leftovers ( not too many with 5 boys and my mother , father, grandmother and myself.) and quarts of milk from the milkman with the creamy tops making high hats on the bottle itself. The table cloths someone else mentioned ( I still have a few) but a table cloth was laid over the oilcloth that kept things neat and easily wiped when we children would spill things. We even had a toaster that fit on top of one of the gas burners for toast although there were so many of us Mom would just heat the oven and put a whole loaf of bread inside usually making cinnamon toast. we had a waffle maker that too fit on the gas burner ...No electic coffee pot., no electric mixer although she did beat her egg whites in a copper bowl to make them lighter. With all the gadgets we have that take up space and electic outlets I long for those long ago days ..Bill I think I am the antique here ...anna

so you don't even have to interrupt to turn the item. gadgets are useful if you know how to utilize them. my coffee maker and I have decided exactly how I should use it a half cup of beans ground for each pot and the water line on the old plastic container that had jelly beans in it is perfect for that. also the container is hexagonal and has printed areas which make it perfect for pouring water into the coffee maker. my coffee is always perfect that way and for re heating in the microwave from room temperature just hit the top three numbers on the pad 1 2 3 and it's just about right. . .I love my gadgets and what will I do when I can't drive anymore. . . vision a problem. that's the best one of all my little red pickup truck. . ."truckeepooh" I would certainly miss you. . .

Do any of you folks remember the old Singer sewing machines.--picture curtsey of the eBay web site--I had an aunt that had Singer sewing machine that looked very similar to this one. I recall that it would fold down inside the cabinet for storage when not in use. Did these machines have to be operated by a foot pedal or by turning the wheel you see in the picture?

Also what comes to mind is the old clothes flat irons. I believe some sort of plate had to be kept on the gas stove and the iron placed on it for heating and reheating while ironing the clothes.

While we are here, lets mention the old wash machines with hand wringers. No wonder the ladies of that day looked old before their time.

.Bill H

Anna, I do remember the meat grinders that clamped on to the table. Yea, and we had one of those toasters that was placed on top of the stove. They had some sort of wracks that the bread slices could be placed on for toasting.

The oil cloths where a blessing for many spilt cups of whatever.

No, Anna, you are not the antique here. I think I am.

Bill H

That Singer is still my main machine. Mine has patched miles of overalls.

I learned to sew on my mother's treadle It was a White I believe had a long shuttle not a rotary You used the wheel to set the needle in the fabric or to lift it to the right level to thread it ..once you had the needle in place you placed your feet on the treadle and then gave the wheel a little push to start it ..The machine folded down into the cabinet and although I cant recall any more but it would so some of the "tricks" that the modern electric did Something I found out by accident I have often wished I had one It worked in bad weather without electricity ..you got your exercise making the treadle move back and forth and you could control the speed better. My first electric one had a knee control that gave me a sore knee and today when I sew with my foot pedal it doesnt stay in place and I end up with my foot and ankle aching the control isnt there ..with my mothers the sewer controlled it ..I have always been of the opinion every new thing is not always better ..and I was a little girl when Aunt Annie an IRish lady came to the house on Mon to help my mother wash the clothes ..there were 3 tubs one with hot water and the others with cold I helped by using a small paring knife and cut flakes from a fels naptha laundry bar, Mother or Aunt Annie would stir it with a long handled wooden spoon..in the hot water and rub stained garments on a washboard adding the laundry soap directly to the garment If the water was too hot the would fish the item out with the spoon when it was ready it was placed between two rollers and hand cranked to move it through to the next tub ..there they were stirred and checked to see if any stains remained. and finally to the third tub where something called bluing was added to the white clothes Shirts and items to be starched were dipped in a hot starch solution my mother cooked on the stove Some things were wrung out my hand and then my mother and Aunt Annie would take them outside and hang on the line in nice weather and in bad weather in the basement Before my mother would go to bed that night she would clear the kitchen table and spread the clean garments on it and sprinkle with water ,. roll them up and place in the laundry basket , cover with something and the next morning Aunt Annie would arrive to help iron those clothes I remember when my fathre brought my mother an ELECTRIC Maytag washer which wasnt too much of an improvement as I think of it The hot water went into the machines tub , soap added and was agitated then with a wooden spoon the clothes were lifted to the rollers moving by electricity into a tub of clean rinse water and as with the early method there was a final clear water rinse before the laundry was put through the wringers again We never had it happen but some children and even adults got their hands and even their arms caught in those moving wringers and some even lost the arm ..'

I had straight hair and my mother used a non electric curling iron heated in the gas jet to curl my hair I remember she was very careful and would sit me on the table and lick her thumb and forefinger to test the iron so it wasnt too hot. I know my memory is great but I recall my brother who was born in August and I was three in November as clear as if it were yesterday.//And that triggered a memory the irons even the early electric had no indicator so she would test it the same way ..now that was a memory I nearly forgot!!

One thing we did not have an extensive wardrobe and our good clothes were sent to the cleaners and when my brothers finished school and went to work their white shirts were also done by a professional laundry .Also the best thing for me when I was an adult and could take my clothes to the laudromat was I could have clean towels several times a week! AND they were wonderfully soft Unless it was a good windy day when the towels were hung out they were as stiff and rough as corrugated cardboard And my mother ironed her kitchen towels too. and we were only given clean ones when we took a bath and again that was not a daily thing.

BILL I have to confess we have come a long long way.And I am glad I am sitting in an air conditioned house and my clothes are easy to do although my mother felt to do them as often as most of us do was not very labor saving and always remarked when she visited the modern women worked just as hard and in many ways spent more hours doing laundry etc than she did ...guess there is some truth to that which was one reason I taught my children by the time they were 12 -13 and tall if not taller than me to use those magic machines ,...the washere and dryer!!!! anna

Anna, you can still get those clamp/meat grinders. I used my mothers for a long time. I ground up cheese to make my own pimiento cheese. It finally rusted too much to use. But I found another one. I'll bet you could find one in a catalog somewhere.

thanks I will google etc and see what I can find ..Right now I could really use one ..anna

http://tinyurl.com/pm2p7

Anna and Mary, I have had 2 of the old timey meat grinders that I found at yard sales. I let them go when I moved from the farm. And now I can't remember what I ground with them--one thing I think was fruit for Christmas fruitcakes, maybe sausage, too. But I used it for something in the summer when we were canning--just can't recall what.

I still have a very small Singer sewing machine that we bought second hand when I was pregnant the first time. It looks like the one in the picture. I made my maternity clothes and also clothing for our boys and myself for quite a while. I still use it to hem pants and do a little mending. My husband bought me a fancy new Singer in 68 rr 69 when his ship was in Hong Kong on R&R from Vietnam. I hardly ever used it, just too elaborate for the kind of sewing I did. Sue

I want to thank John for the link The cast iron ones look very similar to my mother's.. But I think I will study them and get a stainless steel one. My one son is a hunter and I think he would use it when I am not for grinding deer meat. I dont want an electric one nor one that sits on a counter but one that clamps to a counter The one I am looking at would work with my chopping block table //

Then I want to thank everyone for caring enought to try and help ..I am sitting here sending you all smiles , thanks and air hugs!

My mother used it for several things ..One thing was making ham salad but she also used it with bologna and dill pickles and with adding mayo made the best sandwiches in summer. Sometimes I buy bolgona and use a pastry blender to do the same except I use relish but it doesnt taste the same. She used it to grind ham to make a ham loaf which we all loved and one thing I have wanted to try was grinding left over roast beef ..she would grind that, add raw potatoes peeled and onions She would add this mix to a LARGE skillet with some fat in the bottom and water and cook it until it was like a hash . season with garlic and spices and serve it hot over toast..It doesnt sound good but we loved it .Raising 2 boys ( we also had 2 girls but they ate less) I could never fill them up. And like my mother I made use of leftovers and my mother had 5 sons and my father to feed. I have diced meat etc but a grinder would make it easier I did chop leftover ham once inawhile and I have no idea what I added but the recipe called it deviled ham ..this was used to make sandwiches for lunches . I would wrap and freeze them They were so good sometimes I would get one out and eat it for breakfast ..I think I am going to have fun with new grinder , stainless steel etc so thanks to all. I can hardly wait ..anna

Anna, Anna, Anna ---I have enjoyed so much reading your memories about all that "old" stuff; as I was reading I was thinking "Yep, that's right" or "Oh, yeah, I remember that".

Mother had a meat grinder, I remember she would run a slice or 2 of bread through it after grinding any meat--that cleaned out the little crevasses and holes; then hot soapy water (P&G bar soap--I think Fels-Napha cost more than P&G), then boiling water was poured over it and let it air-dry or put into warm oven. Of course, all this was done to it after it was dis-assembled; all parts were washed soon after using; the wooden knob on the handle especially was never left to soak in water. It was cast-iron which had some kind of shiny finish, the 3 or 4 cutting plates were steel, I think-- but still would have rusted easily. I don't remember what she ground up! I would ask my OLDER brother, but he will probably say, after a long pause, "Noooooooo, I don't believe I remember that !" Funny how people raised together in same surroundings have totally different memories!.

One more thing: I used to buy chuck roasts, trim out the bone, cut off--- or out--- any gristle or membranes, and excessive fat, cut into chunks and Reuben would run it all through the grinder. such wonderful ground beef and chili meat (coarse ground) Lot of work, time and effort, no comparing to packaged ground beef.

John, thank you for the link to meat grinders. Before I read your post, I was going to search the Internet for them. However, you saved me the trouble. Thanks. By the way, glad to see you dropped in.

Bill H

Anna, your post always brings to mind the old ways we knew when we were young.

Remember the Carpet Beaters? They looked like big tennis rackets and folks would hang the carpets and rugs outside on a clothes line and just beat the dust right out of them. That made for very good upper respitory excercise.

Bill H

Anna mentioned some of the old kitchen utensils – I have my grandmother’s old “poking” fork. It’s small, with a yellow handle embossed with (I think) nickel filigree decorations. I treasure that fork, it feels good in your hand, a very nice weight to it. Each of the 4 prongs has a tiny, tiny barb type thing on the end, so it will pick up a piece of frying bacon by the very tip of a single prong without even poking through the bacon.

I do love those old kitchen things – and I don’t like one-purpose electric gadgets. Threw out my electric can opener years ago, and use my electric beaters maybe about once a month – preferring instead to use the old fashioned rotary beaters or a whisk. But like Winsum (with the microwave and coffee maker), I would never give up my electric skillet. Even though I also use my 2 trusty cast iron ones very often. Hey - I bet those meat grinders - and carpet beaters, and everything else we've mentioned here - are available on ebay! ~JudyS

Bill H, I still have my mothers singer sewing machine just like the one you showed with all the parts showing in the picture all in good condition, just needs the belt for the wheel. t is in the closet of the guest bedroom. You use the tread unlest you need to go real slow then you use the wheel, I wonder how much it went for? I remember the ole flat iron on the stove and the ole meat grinder.

If yuo lived near I would steal that sewing machine I have bemoaned the fact that my fancy electic one cant work when it is storming and while it does fancy stichers my mother did the same thing with a needle and embroidery floss .. and it was lovlier ..Thanks again for all the memories I had forgotten about using the bread to clean out that grinder and Yes I would HATE to give up my microwave or my refrigerator or my freezed but still there are things I wished I still had I use a hand can opener ...hated those electric ones. and while I use my mixer to start cakes etc I finish stirring in the flour etc by hand ..and biscuits and home made bread oh my and my cornbread when the family comes for a ham and bean soup dinner ..my family loves to come and eat at NANA"S since I am the only one who truly COOKS from scratch I tried frozen dinners when my husband died but in no time I gave them up I missed the flavor and taste of my own cooking ..I try to make enough for another meal and freeze it but I have just about scaled down from cooking for many to cooking for one ..which is why I often have my family over !! I love to cook for a crowd !! and while they offer to bring stuff I dont like what they bring as a rule as most of it is really pre prepared ..oh sorry got to leave I hear thunder.. take care all .anna

I sent away for a group of blender like items that will grind up anything in seconds. I haven't tried them for meat though. . .just let the stores do that. Of course I have to go there for that and sometimes that's a problem. old things have a history that clings to them and stories to tell but for day to day use I'm into gadgets. . . .claire

P>S> I gave my modern SINGER away. it just took up room and I always felt insecure when threading it and re winding bobbins etc. a most unfriendly machine. If anything needs mending I'll do it by hand, but mostly I just put it in a basket and look at it now and then so nothing gets mended either. I learned to sew and I still know how and don't really like doing it sooooo. . . .I don't . . .

I like your cooking as remember it from the senior net books gathering in Carolina. I use the hand can opener also as I find it easier.

Here's what I'm thinking - it's not so much that doing things the old fashioned way is easier, it's that it's more pleasant. You'll know what I mean if you compare candlelight or light from an oil lamp to our efficient long-life florescent lighting. Or try to imagine how nice it would be to have the family gathered together for a fireplace chat on a winter evening, instead of around the computer, tv and ipod.

Antique housekeeping items are simple, beautiful, and very suited to the job. Lemonade in an antique crystal glass tastes so much more delicious! And they don't make unpleasant roaring noises like electric can openers and blenders and alarm clocks.

AnnaFair - I love your memories and observations! Are we long lost relatives or something? ~JudyS

Ginger, Hi. Happy to see you here.

Judy, I do think that most of the folks today would rather have the modern day clothes washers and dryers. I remember how mom had to turn the wringer to get most of the water out of the washed clothes and then hang them on a clothes line.

I even remember some folks had to push and pull a handle on the side of the wash machine to turn the agitator. They were the good old days.

And let us not forget the old coal furnace, with a side handle for sifting the ashes, and then hauling those ashes up the cellar steps out into the back yard.

Bill H

Bill, you hit the nail right on the head. I agree 100%. I adore the wonderous household improvements brought about by indoor plumbing. Clothes washers and toilets and dishwashers and hot tubs and icemakers and showers and garbage disposals - Oh, the luxury - I wouldn't want to give them up!

~JudyS

If you would like to take a look at a vintage old time pink wash machine, just click the link below.

Vintage Pink Wash Machine

Click on the picture for a larger view.

Bill H

Given to me by my grandfather when I was 5 -- My Mother put it in the china closet and gave it to me after I was married. I didn't play with dolls as a child, but I enjoy this sweet doll now.

She/he has a bisque head and pink muslin cloth body with composition hands and no feet; marked made in Germany on back of neck.

Pat: Your doll is a treasure.

Bill: I hope that dishwasher is for a doll's house! It looks pretty small. If not, maybe it could wash a handkerchief!

Pat what a special remembrance. I can see why you think she is special You say she has no feet? Somewhere in my reading I have this vague memory of a doll that was meant to be a bed doll. decorative like a you would use a pillow and I wonder if this was supposed to be one of those. In any case she is sweet and I am glad your mother saved her for you.

Bill that washing machine must have been made for a doll's clothes. While I think it is a toy it reminds me of the EASY washing machines ..which had those cups on the bottom to sort of beat the clothes and a small spinner to one side instead of a wringer ..they were electric . anna

I want to thank you for leading this discussion ..I think we all enjoyed it . We cant remember antiques I think unless we remember why they are antiques .. They may have history , most likely beauty, but most of all they stir our memories and it us usually a pleasure to talk about them I know I have enjoyed my trip down memory lane.

the terrible flooding on the east coast has missed us where I live We did have 17 inches of rain total over this week + of thunderstorms and some areas right on the coast did have flooding ..

After watching the pictures on TV my heart goes out to those who have suffered greatly I pray all of you are safe and no loss of property or injury

Bill I remember you had a flooded basement due to hurricane What was it HAZEL???Will hope to see a post from you telling us you are all right and no flood this time.

My thanks to all who shared thier stories and memories.

Ginger if I ever get in your direction I am going to sneak into the garage and take away that sewing machine! And Pat I will leave your doll , because it is beautiful and cheers you .

Even though I wax nostalgic about the things from the past I am grateful for air conditioning , central heat, hot water when needed, my microwavel, my dishwasher , washer and dryer etc But I AM GOING TO BUY A MEAT GRINDER non electric ..stainless steel and see what memories I can stir.. Thanks John for that link...Bless you all , anna

This has been a fun discussion - thanks to all!

Is it over so soon? I sure have enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

Curious Minds is as a rule a 2 week discussion starting on the 16 of the month,. In July and August we dont offer it but come September it will return. We try to offer one a month from September to June. We appreciate those who will offer a dicussion because most of them do other things on Seniornet as well,

I am supposed to organize this and pester people to lead

..actually everyone who does is like Bill , super people who have a curious mind and try to find something that will appeal.

If anyone has an idea for a CM discussion please email me and I will let the volunteers know. It has to be in a written form ie book, magazine, newspaper etc Whoever leads tries to find something that give posters a chance to talk about the subject and as this time to take a walk down memory lane.

I am so appreciative of all of them who say YES when I ask. So please be sure and look for this again come September . In the meantime check in Books and Literature for other interesting discussions. Often there is a month long discussion on a classic book from years ago, And if you enjoy Poetry ( hint hint) we have a great poetry discussion, I encourage everyone to check what we offer here. It is like an all you can eat buffet! With a variety of interesing dishes hosted by the best discussions leaders anywhere on the net ...hope to see you all in other discussions ..and thanks so much for the wonderful posts this month .When it is near the end of the month I like to make sure the discussion leader's efforts are recognized. Which is why I have thanked Bill,.

Have a great summer, Check the books being offered Summer is a good time to find a cool spot and a good book and there is nothing better than to share that book with others. Bless you all , anna