Curious Minds ~ 2004 December Export

Here we are an old friend in a new place ..hope you find it and like it and come in to discuss subjects that may have piqued your curiosity .Here is >>>>.One for the record books! In yesterdays paper there was an article about a plastic “millionaire” No this is not someone who made millions in the plastic industry or a huge plastic figure called a Millionaire but a real person. Mr. Walter Cavanaugh also known as Mr. Plastic Fantastic has to use a wallet nearly as long a football field to carry his credit cards.

It seems Mr. Plastic Fantastic owns 1,497 valid credit cards with a potential credit line of $1.7 million. He has been collecting them over three decades . He has become so good at it he earned a place in Guinness. He also holds the title for the longest wallet a 38 pound monster that is 200 ft long and can hold 800 credit cards.

Well this should tell you the WORLD BOOK OF RECORDS has some real records and some real WILD records! Although how a 38 pound , 200 ft long object can be called a wallet is in my mind rather questionable.

OK you curious minders ..check out the link and give us the records you have found interesting be they old or new! And does anyone have an idea for a record they would like to see in the book??? Anna whose curiosity know no bounds!!!

Anna, Oh! yes, this is a fabulous Curious Minds topic I am very very excited about it. My 1l yr.old grandson Anthony keeps talking to me about "The Guinness" because his friends all talk about that in the school yard.

I will love to participate in this with everyone you can count on me.

Éloïse

Good to see you here ..did you check the link I will be doing that today but would love to know what others think about some of the RECORDS I need to really read about the person who pushed an orange with his nose for a mile! What I really would like to know WHAT POSSESSED him to do that. It would have to be a man or a flat chested woman or a thin teenager ! OR SOMEONE WITH A REALLY BIG NOSE!!

The PBS program is falling on its face! Maybe we opened it too soon or we just don't have much interest in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

Anna, I love this topic and will be looking at my Guiness Book later to see what interests me or you'al.

See you later!

Welcome to our new home!! As you may have noticed PBS programs and clubs have moved to a new folder named "Culture" along with the Latin courses and other things to come.

I hope that we you give us some thoughts on how you celebrate your Christmas. Do you have memories of music being a part of your family tradition?

Our PBS program is not being shown until Dec 22 but we thought that you might be interested in telling us about your experiences with Christmas over the years. Did you have a music tradition that you enjoyed around the holidays??

No one has found an unusual record. Well what about the one I found this am. I am really upset I have just an ordinary tongue , used only for eating, drinking and talking. BUT look what this man has done. I wonder when he first discovered he could do this and how long it took him to master his skill.. LOL what do yuo think? anna

Cherry Stem Knotting Al Gliniecki of Gulf Breeze, Florida, USA, tied into knots 39 cherry stems in three minutes using his tongue at the Guinness World of Records Experience, Orlando, Florida, on January 26, 1999.

Some people need to get a life, as the kids say. Cherry stems into a knot! Good grief!

Curious Minds want to know ...LOL

Largest Chicken Dance

Organizers of the Canfield Fair in Ohio, USA, hatched a plan. At 3pm on September 1, 1996, rides were paused and vendors stopped business. Then a record-breaking crowd of 72,000 did their thing. "It seems to be a tradition in this area of Ohio to chicken dance at weddings," laughs William J. Kish, who's the attorney for the Canfield fairground. Canfield fair's mascot also happens to be a rooster! One fanatic even turned up in a chicken suit!

WANT TO KNOW MORE? The humble chicken has a glorious history. As well as having a dance named after it, the creature is often seen as a symbol of courage and bravery. Roosters (male chickens) can be aggressive animals. The rooster was adopted as a mascot by the ancient Gauls (a French tribe) and is still used as a mascot by modern French sporting teams. In Christian religious art the crowing rooster has been used to symbolize the resurrection of Christ, partly because its crow marks the start of the new day, or the arrival of "light" and the end of "darkness".

Anna, I don't have any record for you today. But I remember the first time I ever saw the Guiness Book of World Records. We were living Puerto Rico at the time, and access to Lots ofbooks in English was not easily available. Our church had a small library with kids books and my retired teacher mother scoured her school district for castoffs that she sent to us.

When my son was about 8 or 9 years old, his aunt and uncle sent him the Guiness Book for his birthday. Oh my, the whole family devoured it, and it was kept for long after it was tattered and torn (It was a paperback.) It wasn't until I became an "old" new librarian that I learned it was an annual publication.

In the high school library where I was employed, we kept the current copy on the reserve shelf and wouldn't let it be checked out, but we did check out older editions. They were popular with the English teachers too, because even the most reluctant of readers would look at them. As I remember, it was beginning to change a bit -- guess I need to go to the library to check it out. Chicken dance?

It is amazing to me to see what some people do with their time ! How about this one? Why would anyone want to train a dog to do this ? OR was the dog smart enough to do it on its own..AND is this the only dog to have done this ? I cant imagine a lot of dogs competing for the title LOL

Fastest Car Window Opened by a Dog The world record for the fastest time a dog has unwound a non-electric car window is 13 seconds and belongs to Striker, a border collie owned and trained by Francis V. Gadassi of Hungary. The record was set on August 14, 2003, in Quebéc City, Canada. This is no wind up, honest! When the crafty canine wants to cool off, he pushes the window handle down with his paws and up with his snout, checking every turn to see if the window has lowered.

There were some amazing things seniors are doing at very advanced ages..here is one I found ...anna

Oldest Woman To "Loop The Loop" On May 21, 1998, 95-year-old Adeline Ablitt "looped-the-loop" while a passenger in an unpowered glider at the Soaring Centre in Leicestershire, England. She said it felt "very tranquil".

I want to be that woman. Sounds like great fun to me! Heck, I'd try it now!

Here's one for Ginny who led a wonderful discussion on the Transcontinental RR.

Fastest Railroad

The highest speed recorded on any national railroad is 515.3 km/h (320.2 mph) by the French SNCF high-speed train, TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse) Atlantique, between Courtalain and Tours, France, on May 18, 1990. The Train a Grande Vitesse, which means high-speed train, first entered commercial use in 1981, between Paris and Lyon in France. At the time it was the world's fastest train, with a top speed of 370 km/h (236 mph), but it has since been superseded by newer generation TGVs.

Well, I don't know if I'd want to go that fast or not -- might miss something. I miss stuff that's standing still -- like the link to the online Guiness. Duh duh duh!

Since it's the Christams season, I thought I'd check out Christmas trees and was surprised that the record for the tallest cut live Christmas tree dates back to 1950 -- 221 ft. erected at the Northgate Shopping Center (I've been there in summer). A generator provided electricity for the thousands of lights and it was so impressive looking it made the cover of Life Magazine.

The tallest artificial tree -- 170.6 ft. was erected in Brazil in 2001. It had 3,000 baubles, 200 lamps, and a total weight of over 80 tons. It was called the "Peace Tree" and at its top was a 10 ft. dove that weighed at half a ton.

I have collected them for a long time and it is a good thing my children are grown and married because I wouldnt have room for them and my bears! how aboutthis bear?

Most Valuable Teddy Bear A Steiff bear named "Teddy Girl" was sold for £110,000 (US$170,830) – more than 18 times the guide price – at Christie’s, London, UK, on December 5, 1994. It was bought by Japanese businessman, Yoshihiro Sekiguchi. The bear was made in 1904, only a year after Steiff made the first jointed plush teddy bear, and had a particularly well-documented history. She belonged to a prominent collector, Colonel Bob Henderson, who took her everywhere with him - even to his landing on the D-Day beaches, where he was a small arms adviser to Field Marshal Montogomery.

Hi, Anna, This is an interesting discussion. I used the link in the heading and found an item very appropriate for this time of year
" Most Valuable Christmas Card"
"The most valuable Christmas card in the world was sold at auction in Devizes, Wiltshire, UK on November 24, 2001. The card, measuring 13 x 8 cm (5 x 3 in) was hand-coloured by the London illustrator John Calcott Horsley and sent by Bath's Sir Henry Cole to his grandmother in 1843. It was bought by an anoymous bidder for £20,000 ($28"
I would like to see that card. My parents used to keep greeting cards for years on end. Some dated back to before I was born. I have no idea what happened to them. I wish now I had been more careful what I disposed of. I still have some favorite greeting cards of all types that I don't want to part with. How about you folks, did you save any greeting cards through the years?
I copied and pasted the above quote, so the spelling is not mine.

Bill H

I clicked on the link in the heading and then on the Age & Youth category and found something I thought was interesting. There are certainly a lot of different kinds of records on the site.

Most Siblings Born on Leap Day

Many happy returns to the three children of Norway's Henriksen family – Heidi (b. 1960), Olav (b. 1964) and Lief-Martin (b. 1968) – who all celebrated their birthdays this year. What's so unusual about this? They were all born on Leap Day, February 29, the most siblings to do so.
from http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/

And found this:

Oldest Driver There are two male drivers who were issued with new driving licenses at the age of 104: Fred Hale Sr (USA, b. December 1, 1890) was issued with a driving license in February 1995 at age 104, and drove until it expired on his 108th birthday in 1998. Fred currently holds the Guinness World Record as the oldest living man.

Layne Hall (USA), whose date of birth is uncertain (b. December 24/25, 1884 or March 15, 1880) was issued with a New York State license on June 15, 1989, when he was either 105 (according to his death certificate) or 109 (according to his driving license). It was valid until his birthday in 1993, but he died on 20 November 1990.

Of course, the next question here should be:WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT??????

I sure don't want to know that those old men are out there, driving their cars around the streets, threatening my life. But, hey, maybe they are(were) more aware drivers than I am.

Hello Anna, Ann and everyone. My grandson Anthony is a champion of The Guinniss World Record and he is coming for dinner just now. I will ask him what his favorite one is. Be back after dinner.

This is so much fun.

Éloïse

PS Anthony said that the one he remembers is the longest nails. They are more than 3 to 4 feet long, and they are curly, curved and black,

Oh Eloise, I remember that one from my library days. Those long nails really grossed out the kids.

Anna, I just sent you a long email

Here is one ...

Most Non-Consecutive Weeks On US Singles Chart Bing Crosby's White Christmas spent a total of 86 weeks on the US singles chart between 1942 and 1962. A "Christmas Singles Chart" was introduced in the US in 1963, otherwise this recording would have logged up many more chart weeks. Crosby's songs include such classics as "Pennies From Heaven", "Blue Skies", and "Temptation". By the mid-1960s, Crosby's output slowed but even towards the end of his career he was able to attract sell-out crowds. It was while playing golf in Spain that he collapsed and died on October 14, 1977.

When I was cleaning my Sunbeam toaster the other day I realized it was 50 years old and still working and the chrome as lovely as if it were new,.

It was in the fall of '55 and we had just set up "housekeeping" in a trailer on a new base in France. We needed a new toaster and my husband and I went to the BX to purchase one..They had several different kinds most under 12 dollars but the one I wanted was this sunbeam that was truly automatic...You just put the bread in the slots and the bread lowered into the toaster and when done would raise by itself. It was 25 dollars which was a lot of money for us on a Lt's pay. But when I was being "cute" my husband could never deny me something I really wanted. So we bought it and it still works as good as the day we purchased it..and the chrome is lovely not a worn spot on it ..when two of my children married they wanted a toaster like ours..So we gave them one,....one cost 60 dollars and the other 75 I think but I can tell you the chrome on those toasters looks sort of OLD ..I am not even sure they still have them but intend to check them out. So i am going right now and ask Guinness if a 50 year old toaster still working is a record!!! will let you know about it ..AND A MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL...anna

I just clicked on the place where you can post your record idea and it is CLOSED until after JAN 5th. I dont think I am going to use that toaster until I hear from them LOL ...by the way this Nana has been grandchildren watching for two days and I am exhausted ..my grandchildren are young 11 10 8 5 and 4 ,..have two 5 year olds but one was at the other grandmothers home..3 on Wed and 2 yesterday Now I consider myself an active senior with few aches or pains and in good health ..but boy does one forget how active and energetic these ages can be. I am worn to a frazzle whatever that is ..and am glad they are all home for Christmas Eve and I am too ..alone ..with peace and quiet !! Will be going to a midnight church service and then home ..I wont have to go anywhere until 5 on Christmas day and again on Sunday same time ..to celebrate with my families.and for that I am exceedingly grateful and thankful for. Love to all of you and may your days be bright..anna

My dearest Anna. Yes, in Canada we had GM chrome toasters like yours and the last time I saw one, it was still working like brand new. I never bought one, imagine paying $25 for a toaster in the 50's, well I tell you, I have bought so many toasters since then that I stopped counting. So it was not so good not to pay the price and I would just love to get a GM toaster now and I think I will. I am tired of buying cheap ones that break after only one or two years.

My woman friend in Ottawa still has her stove she bought when she was married, 65 years ago. It is huge has two ovens and one warming oven. Still works like the day they bought it. Her husband died 30 years ago and she still mourns him.

Our Christmas is shaping up fine minus a few injuries. Anthony broke his arm while playing hockey. Isabelle is having a rheumatoid arthritic attack and can't walk, but there are enough adults here to be able to handle Christmas dinner for 15 family members. My meat, and apple pies, fruit cake are all made and some will bring the other accompaniments to the turkey I will bake. One daughter from Florida and one son from Switzerland are here with grandchildren.

Unlike you Anna, I don't mind any children any more, they are all too big for that while you are still young enough to be asked to mind the kids. Lucky you.

Try not to get too frazzled now, it's not good

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYBODY

Éloïse

yesterday we were to celebrate with a family dinner and gift exchange but early in the am snow began to fall and when it was over we had our own record 11 inches of white stuff..we are snowed in ..the cars are covered and look like huge mounds of snow ..I did clear a small path for the dog who never sees snow either and couldnt believe we expected her to GO OUT into that deep snow, Also cleared a place so I could put bird seed and critter food..Just to make me feel better this is a record re snow...anna

Greatest Snowfall For A Snowstorm The record for a single snowstorm is 480 cm (189 in), at Mount Shasta Ski Bowl, California, USA, between February 13 and 19, 1959.

In the paper and on the news of the earthquake and the flooding and destruction in SE Asia I am sure you must be like me ..I keep thinking this will be in Guinness and while we can smile at the humorous world records we can only feel sorrow for the records that show how nature and man inflicts cruelty on our world. anna

Lately I've been having email problems, so thought I'd check to see if "e mail" was old enough to be in the Guiness book. Not a whole lot there, but the largest provider is Hotmail, with 110 million active users -- sending 40 million email messages a day.

If you are curious click under natural disasters and read how nature strikes our world ...some I havent been aware of ...anna ....

Found this in amazing feats...what is amazing to me is what some folks consider amazing...anna

Cream Cracker Eating It remains a benchmark of record-breaking prowess – how quickly can you YOU eat three Jacob's Cream Crackers? And on October 29, 2002, at the London offices of Guinness World Records, UK sports agent Ambrose Mendy smashed the existing record by more than 30 seconds, chowing down on three crackers in just 49.15 seconds.

"Everyone can do something well," said Ambrose, summing up the Guinness World Records philosophy. "It's all about concentration and telling your mouth to have saliva in it; then it's just bite and swallow, bite and swallow.

What's a cream cracker? The thing that kills me is the doughnuts people eat to get in the records. I could eat that many, maybe it's about the kinds of foods you can stand, there is no way I could eat three hot dogs together, much less a million.

"Everyone can do something well," I like that philosophy! Why don't we set a new record here? How could we do it?

Here you go, I can't find the record for doughnuts eaten but here's a claim to fame this guy can have:

Strangest Diet Michel Lotito (aka Monsieur Mangetout) from Grenoble, France, has been eating metal and glass since 1959. Gastroenterologists have described his ability to consume 900 g (2 lb) of metal per day as "unique". Mangetout - Michel's nickname - literally translates as "eats everything". Michel says bananas and hard-boiled eggs make him sick.

Now do you think that's true? I think his name is too good to be true, that's ridiculous, how can anybody eat 2 pounds of metal a day?

Why would you WANT to eat 2 pounds of metal and glass per day? I have heard of people eating laundry starch, but metal?

If it is in Guinness it is supposed to have been validated so while anyone would want to eat too much of anything will always be a puzzle to me...I think it is interesting but some of the things people do I not only wouldnt want to do but I wouldnt want to view it and I am very fussy about what i read about the "feats"

Apparantly you can make a suggestion to Guinness and they will decide if they will allow you to try ..but can you imagine being on the decision board? Some of the records would make me laugh out loud are look incredulous and finally a few would make me barf!! anna

This certainly hasnt been a time to think of fun things.. I am sure many who would have posted have been first involved with Christmas and holiday celebrations. And unfortunately the earthquake and tsunami in SE Asis will go down in the history books and in the record books ...what a terrible way to set a record.

This discussion will be closed BUT look for the next one ..It will be a great one with Bill H leading it...have a HAPPY NEW YEAR ..and I pray it will be a better year. anna

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals
and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.

The Oath of Office

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Facts and Firsts

Inaugural History

Menu of all Presidents

Presidential Oaths of Office

Inaugural 2005

Discussion Leader: Bill H

Inauguration day brings to the fore one of the most significant events, if not THE most significant event, that occurs in the United States. Every four years the people of our country cast their votes to guide the Electoral College in electing the person who will lead this nation for his/her term in office.
It is said the President of the United States is the most powerful person in the world. It is Mind boggling, to say the least, that so much responsibility rests on the shoulders of one person. Regardless how many advisors that individual may have, it is the President that is held accountable. And the President's accountability is what creates the enormity of those few short lines in the Oath of Office.
During times of crisis, we have had some great Presidents lead this country in her peril. We can reflect on who those men were. History determines the greatness and achievements, or the weakness and failures of each President.
This discussion is not just about one president's inauguration. The discussion will be relevant to all the presidents who took the oath of office on their Inauguration Day. The links in the heading will guide you in finding the inauguration days of all our presidents. I welcome your thoughts and opinions concerning the inauguration of distant and recent previous presidents who raised their right hand and swore their allegiance to this nation on this great day.
Each of us has our own political persuasions. Please be considerate of those whose political leanings differ from yours.Thank you.

Bill H

I think the spending of millions and millions of dollars on the parties, banquets and balls, balls, balls for this 2005 inauguration is an outrage. We are trillions of dollars in debt. The War in Iraq has cost over one hundred fifty trillion dollars, and that figure rises every second, not to mention the loss of life and the cost of what's going on in Afghanistan and other places where American troops are stationed. Under ordinary conditions the inaugural celebrations are a terrible extravagance, but this unnecessary expense is inexcusable, in my opinion.

Mal

Interesting that several of the 20th century presidents had second inaugurals that were less elaborate - at least inside (not on the East or West Porticos of the Capitol Building). This included Reagan's second.

I have to agree with Malryn. What is planned for this year is - or should be - a scandal.

Along the way during the latter part of the 20th century these celebrations grew and grew, and by now they border on gross political hucksterism.

I think we are well past the time when we should go back to a brief public ceremony and the president limiting his participation to a single official celebration limited to congress and members of the administration. This might even be salutary in a culture where anything is an excuse for gross public excess and profligacy.

Jack

Mal, I agree the money used for the inaugurations of presidents is extravagant, especially when one reflects on the poverty and need in our own nation. However, other than the cost of security for the President, the donations contributed by private individuals and firs seem to cover the cost of the inaugural ball. I visited a web site that listed the donors for President Bush's 2001 inaugural ball. Follow the link provided here to see who these contributors were.
Donors to the 2001 Inauguration.

Bill H

Mary, I compliment you on how you picked up on the second inaugurations of 20th century presidents. I wonder how extravagant future inauguration may be.
Kevxu, you and Mary pass along some valid points. Do you believe it is a case of present inaugurations trying to out do past?
As I viewed the list of donors for 2001, I wondered how much they expected in return and how much largesse they received.

Bill H

It is interesting to note that President Roosevelt 2nd. Inaugurations begun on January twenty. This was a departure from the March 4th ceremonies. Does anyone know why?
Also you will see that in those days the President could ride in an open automobile without fear. So much has happened in our nation that now the President must ride in an armored car for safety.
You may find the links in the heading both useful and informative.

Bill H

I don't see where in the Constitution the inaugural date was set in March (the print in my almanac is very small - and I may just be overlooking it

). It may have just been tradition.

But the 20th Amendment, proposed by Congress on 2 March 1932 and ratified on 23 January 1933, says that the "terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January..."

Mary, thank you for finding the explanation for us. I don't know but perhaps the change to January was for the beginning of the year???

Bill H

Bill H., I think the donors, mostly corporate but many individuals, are expecting and will receive something in return. It is indeed a scandalous situtation. They will have the ear of the administration--and "I scratch your back, you scratch mine"!

I am in total agreement with Mal and Jack. Sue

When we swear in our Prime Minister there is no fanfare. The only real celebration is on election night when party members may have a party after the results are in.

The Presidential celebrations however seem to border on a Coronation like expense. However whereas it is probably decades between Coronations it is only three years between in inaugurations. I can't help thinking it would be cheaper to have a Constitutional Monarchy like we do!

There's just been a program on C-Span about inaugurations. In the listings above about previous inaugurations, I wondered about the times there was a private inauguration on one day, followed by a public one the following day. In this program, the narrator states that when 20 January fell on a Sunday, the custom is often to have a private swearing-in on Sunday, following by the public event on Monday, 21 January. How nice to have a question answered.

Why don't they just swear in the President in Congress and get on with business? Why does there have to be such a big hoo ha? Why does it matter what day he is sworn in on? Is it a constitutional law that the changeover has to be on the 20th? Its not like that here for the changeover of a leader. That is why I keep thinking its more like a coronation of a King than the inauguration of a President. I have always been astounded by the reverence to what amounts to just a Political post.

Carolyn, the 20th Amendment to our Constitution states that the president shall take office on January 20 - so that date is specific. The manner of swearing in is at the pleasure of the incoming president, I guess. At times when the sitting president has died, the vice president can be administered the oath of office by any judge or justice at any location.

Unfortunately, presidents were not safer in years gone by even though they did ride in open cars. There were a number of assasinations and attempts on the lives of presidents. Two Puerto Rican nationalists attempted to assassinate President Truman on November 1, 1950. They arrived in Washington D.C. the day before from the Bronx in New York City, where they were active in the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party. They thought the assassination would call attention to Puerto Rico and advance the cause of Puerto Rican independence. However, it wasn't until the much publicized assasination of JFK that measures were instituted to provide greater protection for presidents, both current and former.

Mary, You are correct that, under certain circumstances, the oath can be administered by a judge at any location. I'm sure we all remember the oath taken by LBJ aboard Air Force One with Mrs. Kennedy at his side still wearing her blood-stained outfit.

Lyndon B. Johnson

Oath of office November 22, 1963

Horselover, thank you for reminding us of how vulnerable presidents were in years gone by. If JFK hadn't been riding in that open convertible, Lyndon Banes Johnson might never have been president. And, yes, Sarah T. Hughes, U S District Judge, Northern District of Texas administered the oath of office.

I wonder what was going through Jackie Kennedy's mind as she stood there in her with the blood of her dead husband soaking her clothing?

Mary, I missed that inauguration program on PBS. I wish I had seen it.

All of you are making such very good posts and bringing up pertinent information. Please keep posting more of your informative thoughts.

Bill H

Kiwi Lady, I feel it is the DNC or RNC that pushes for these extravagant inaugurations, probably to reward all the party workers for the work they have done to elect a president. The party faithfuls expect recognition for their work. The higher up the list the worker is, the more likely that worker will receive a ticket to the Inaugural Ball in WDC. These so called tickets are much sought after because it designates the value of the election worker. However, these inaugural balls are going on all over the country.

Bill H

Bill, not really important, but the program was on C-Span, not PBS. And C-Span will be carrying the whole day live on Thursday. I'll confess, I don't plan to be watching it.

When President Roosevelt was inagurated during the second world war he had a simple ceremony in the white house and served cold sandwichs and tea. As I remember there were no balls. We were at war and we concentrated on was to win the war, support our troops and supply them with the best that the US could provide. This is a different century alright. Faith

I intend to watch C-Span, I think it is all so interesting. If people want to donate their money and enjoy the festivities, it's OK with me. I'll just be on the sidelines looking. The same people donating money to the inauguration probably have given money to many charitable organizations as well.

Mary and FlaJean. I'll watch the swearing in and the taking of the oath of office. I love to hear Ruffles and Flourishes and listen to the band play "Hail to the Chief." However, I'll not make the day of it.
Ruffles and Flourishes are sounded to render personal honors and precede prescribed music for personnel being honored. Ruffles (played by the drums) and Flourishes (played by bugle or selected brass instruments) are played simultaneously. Ruffles and Flourishes are played in the concert key of B-flat when they precede the National Anthem, Hail to the Chief, and the General's March. Ruffles and Flourishes are played in the concert key of A-flat when they precede Hail Columbia and the Flag Officer's March. (Source: AR600-25, 1 September 1983, Table 2-1)

Faithr, Roosevelt knew full well that a big celebration would not go over big with the country at war. Good thinking on his part.

Bill H

Remember this Inauguration day is "Not One Damn Dime Day" - Jan 20, 2005

Since our religious leaders will not speak out against the war in Iraq, since our political leaders don't have the moral courage to oppose it, Inauguration Day, Thursday, January 20th, 2005 is "Not One Damn Dime Day" in America.

On "Not One Damn Dime Day" those who oppose what is happening in our name in Iraq can speak up with a 24-hour national boycott of all forms of consumer spending.

During "Not One Damn Dime Day" please don't spend money. Not one dime for gasoline. Not one dime for necessities or for impulse purchases. Nothing for 24 hours. Please boycott Wal-Mart, Kmart, Target... Please don't go to the mall or the local convenience store. Please don't buy any fast food (or any groceries at all for that matter).

For 24 hours, please do what you can to shut the retail economy down.

"Not One Damn Dime Day" is to remind the elected leaders of this nation that they work for the people of the United States of America, not for the international corporations and K Street lobbyists who represent the corporations and funnel cash into American politics.

The object is simple. Remind the people in power that the war in Iraq is immoral and illegal; that they are responsible for starting it and that it is their responsibility to stop it. Now that 1,200 brave young Americans and about 100,000 Iraqis have died, the politicians owe our troops a plan - a way to come home.

There's no rally to attend. No marching to do. No left or right wing agenda to rant about. On "Not One Damn Dime Day" you take action by doing nothing.

You open your mouth by keeping your wallet closed. For 24 hours, nothing gets spent, not one dime, to remind our religious leaders and our politicians of their moral responsibility to end the war in Iraq and give America back to the people.

This may not be as some of you feel but I have been angry over this war since before it was launched and nothing has convinced me it is worth it - I also see our nation too influenced by corperate lobbyists so that we the people have very little voice left - this is one protest movement that I can join and hope you can join as well. This Inauguration is protest day for some of us...

January 25th;, 2005 will be Not One Damn Dime Day for me. Thanks for alerting us, Barbara.

The following quote was taken from Facts and Firsts the link of which can be found in the heading. This pertains to the first inauguration of President George Washington.
"First Inauguration; precedents set include the phrase, "So help me God," and kissing the Bible after taking the oath."
There is quite a controversy in the country as to whether or not the reference to God should remain in public oaths such as the oath of office and the Pledge of Allegiance. What are your thoughts on this sensitive issue?

Bill H

After a push by the Knights of Columbus and approval by Congress, the words, "under God," were added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. In other words, people my age had said the pledge for twenty years in school without those two words and did fine.

The original Pledge of Allegiance was written by Francis Bellamy, a Socialist preacher who was asked to leave his Baptist pulpit in Boston because of sermons about Socialism he preached.

The original pledge Bellamy wrote appeared in the September 8th issue of the Youth's Companion in 1892. It went like this:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
I believe in the Separation between Church and State. In my opinion, theology has no place in politics and government. If one thinks it does, he or she should investigate theocratic Islamic countries, where religious laws don't just rule belief, they rule the government; and see what happens there because they do.

Mal

Just wanted to tell you what a great topic you have chosen. I am still having trouble remembering this is in culture instead of books and literature..

It certainly is a subject encouraging diverse opinions. My youngest daughter was invited to attend one of the balls at Bush first inauguration ..A friend asked her and she had a great time..I think not only for the party workers in each party who want to be recognized but because balls are not as common as in the past.

As you pointed out the cost is borne by mostly corporate sponsors and again I think because there is a glamour associated with an inauguration .. you can always boast I was there!

I personally feel an elaborate one this year is a bit too much but I also find all of the awards programs ie Golden Globes, Oscars offensive ..When presenters are given "goody bag" worth thousands of dollars and we have so many needy right here in America I find that offensive..

And Barbara thanks for your information ...This is the first I have heard of it..

Again my thanks to you Bill for taking CM for January and picking a really interesting subject ..anna

Mal, I agree with your views. Thanks for stating them so well. Using a bible for any oath-swearing would be unnecessary or useless for someone who does not have a belief in whatever bible was used.

May Nab, Welcome. I think this is the first I seen you in any of my discussions. May, I spent a lot of dimes today because today I went to the dentist and he told me I had to have a root canal followed with a crown being placed on the tooth.
Mal, thank you for the heads up on the date the words, "under God" were added to the Pledge of Allegiance. I couldn't remember if I said those words or not when I was in grade school, seems like light years ago.
Every morning we would stand with hand over heart facing the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegegiance to the flag. This was followed by the Lords Prayer. One of the girl students was excused from the class when we recited the Lord's Prayer. After we were finished, She would open the door and return to class. I wonder what embarrassment that girl felt every morning.
I am Christian but I can see the wisdom of eliminating this prayer from publc schools. No one student should have to suffer embarrassment every morning. This is why I worry about the extreme right wing of this administration.
Anna, thank you for the compliment. I'm so glad you found CM. I wonder how many other readers are still trying to find us here in Culture???? Oh, I bet your youngest daughter was really thrilled to be at the inaugural ball. She will never forget that experience. Friends of our were invited to the LBJ inaugural ball. She enjoyed but her husband didn't like it.
Anna, I don't watch the Golden Globes or the Oscars. Could you tell me the reason the presenters are given bags of money!?

Bill H

It is hard to believe that twenty four years have passed since President Reagan's first inauguration.

Bill H

Keep in mind that the President generally puts in an appearance at all of the balls in Washington D.C. The first lady, too. The poor things must be exhausted when the night is over.

Bill, My condolences on your root canal. I haven't had one for over twenty years, but I remember it was an experience I'd like to forget. Ever since then, I brush and floss religiously and haven't had any dental work except cleanings.

Forty million dollars for the inaugural "entertainment." It would only be a drop in the bucket if that money were diverted to pay off some of the War Debt we owe, but it sure would help.

Just out of curiosity, who pays the exorbitant electric and gas and heating oil bills all of this creates? Who pays the many, many people who have to pick up the trash and get rid of it? And who pays the people who vacuum and wash the floors?

Mal

Anna, how nice that your daughter had the opportunity to enjoy an inauguration ball. She'll remember it always. When we lived 20 miles from D.C. we should have attended an inauguration, but I have a problem with being in those large crowds. I just hope that all goes well and there are no attacks of any kind. Bill, I also had a fellow student who refused to say the Lord's Prayer but she was not embarrassed but rather proud about it. I can't remember any of us saying anything or treating her any differently because of it.

Horselover, thank you for your condolences. I have had one other root canal about twenty-five years ago but, as I recall, it wasn't too bad. I hope the same thing holds true this time.
Mal, not only is the cost of utilities exorbitant all this entails, but how about the cost to WDC for extra police protection and the cost rerouting of traffic that inconveniences the daily commuters in that city. I believe I heard the mayor of WDC complaining about expense the city is put through without any reimbursement. If I'm wrong on this, please correct me.
FlaJean, the student I spoke of in a previous post did not refuse to say the Lord's prayer. She was excused during the morning prayer because she was not of the Christian Faith. And none of the rest of her fellow class mates treated her any differently. In fact, we didn't think anything of it.,

Bill H

Yeah, BILL, who's paying for that and the concrete barriers, steel fences and security forces?

Washington: a city under siege?

Mal, I suppose the tax payers are paying for everything you mentioned. I feel it is way too expensive. President Bush has often referred to himself as a war time President, and considering we are at war, I believe a simple inauguration celebration was called for, much like President Roosevelt had during WW2. Thank you for the informative link you gave us.
If any of you folks watched some of the Senate confirmation hearings yesterday of Condoleezza Rice for Secretary of State, did you feel the Senators were a little to harsh or did you approve of the questioning.?
I read on the AOL Welcome screen that Senators John F Kerry and Barbara Boxer voted no on Rice's appointment.' Now why am I not surprised? However, the Senate did vote to approve her confirmation.

Bill H

If you want to discuss activities that are a waste of time and money, these confirmation hearings of Ms. Rice would qualify, since it is a foregone conclusion that she will be confirmed. You can probably call at least half of what goes on in Washington a waste of time and money, but democracy is, by nature, a somewhat wasteful process so I am all for it.

2001

Well, after longs months of campaigning by the nominees of both parties, and a somewhat controversial election result, President George W. Bush will be sworn in at the 55th Inauguration as President of the United States of America.

Please don't click on the Video arrow. It dosen't work

Bill H

Has anybody heard, is Chief Justice Rehnquist going to administer the oath of office? And if not, do we know who will be doing that?

Mary, the last I heard Chief Justice Rehnquist wants to administor the oath of office.

Bill H

The title of this discussion has little to do with the obscenity about to take place in Fat City. It's a Coronation plain and simple, made more egregious by the fact that our maimed and their families face a lifetime of difficulties. The added tragedy is that this war-king/pres and his court/cabal have no intention of compensating them adequately.

Welcome, Gunther, it is always good to hear other opinions. I must admit it is an extravagant waste of money. Money that could be used to much better advantage.
I watched Chief Justice Rehnquist administer the oath of office to President Bush. I thought it a gallant effort on the part of the Chief Justice to make that effort in view of how ill he is.

Bill H

Thanks for the info, Bill - I wondered if Rehnquist was going to be able to do that. We're traveling now, so probably won't be able to check in as often. We'll be home Sunday.

Gunther I have to agree with you. I am a citizen of a constitutional Monarchy. the Inauguration is more like a Coronation. Problem is it occurs much more often than the average Coronation.

PS So far in our country we have opted to keep the Queen. The Monarchists outweigh the Republicans. However when the baby boomers are gone things could change.

Kiwi lady, I ask this as a matter of curiosity. How does the Queen unite the country? I mean, does it give the populace something to rally around?. I don't know if I phrased that properly but I think you what I mean.

Bill H

Well what little I saw of it I loved it. I had Mobile Meals today and every house I went in, poor or not, black or white, was glued to the set. So I saw it in snatches, the long descent of Mrs. Bush (and didn't she look gorgeous) down the stairs, in one house, a snatch of the oath of office in another, lots on the dignitaries, a small bit of a very powerful Black singer, all of the ex Presidents regardless of party, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, George HW Bush Sr, was Gerald Ford there? It was wonderful, I thought. We had two local youth groups participating, or so I gleaned from the snatches of conversation and coverage.

Thank you Bill for putting up such a timely subject. It's our national tradition, to celebrate Democracy.

If there is a crooked PM or a crooked Govt or if the Govt lost support over a major incident the Queens Representative could dissolve Parliament and there would have to be an new election. If a vote of no confidence was passed in Parliament and the Govt refused to stand down she could step in then also. It has never happened here but it did happen in Australia in my lifetime. I think the Monarchy does help to keep the Govt on their toes knowing that if there was a no confidence vote they would have to go.

My grandfather who was actually very liberal said the Monarchy was a stablising influence.

There was an article in The Financial Times today about how presidents in the past century who were reelected have had very bad luck with their second terms. Clinton was impeached, Nixon was forced to resign, and Wilson lost his fight for the League of Nations and ended his term quite ill and bedridden. Roosevelt, of course, died in office shortly after being reelected to a third term. Let's see what this president will accomplish in his second term.

Clinton was impeached? I remember an article of impeachment being submitted to the Senate, and I remember it being voted down, but I don't remember Clinton being impeached.

You are right about Clinton not having a good time in his second term. Clinton was and is a centerist. A conservative Democrat. Leaving out his sexual piccadillos, he always tried to get a majority of the political spectrum to work together on legislation that was in the interest of the people. From the very beginning Clinton cared deeply about the "common man", and he still does to this day.

Bill Clinton is held in great affection here in NZ. He was able to do a lot more mixing with ordinary people here than he could in the US. A friend of my daughter has a photo of herself, Bill and Chelsea when he came into her hand made chocolate and coffee shop in Auckland. He gets sell outs whenever he comes here to speak. Regardless of his peccadillos I think he does have great feeling for ordinary people.

I watched the whole thing and even thuogh I think it could have been a bit less extravagant ..we have as people become the same way. I wanted to buy some new sheets the other day and they were on sale , which was good because I never buy things that are full price.

But what astounded me was the cost of bedding. Who can afford these costly items? There were all sorts of displays of sheet, comfortors, bed skirts, decorative pillows etc and some of them were 500 + in total cost!

The housing boom continues in the area where I live..and these are not modest homes but homes in the 200,000 + to almost a million..In fact every week there are homes pictured that cost a million or more..I am horrified at the cost and at the fact they dont stay on the market very long...

I know that is far from the topic ,.but in watching the balls last night ..where 1,000 or more were in attendence the newscaster mentioned that each person paid over 100,000 dollars to attend. None were free ,,everyone paid to be there. And I dont want to get into a discussion of who voted for who but also feel if Kerry had been elected we would have had the same extravagant inaugural ..

Some of the commentators said it was a celebration of our type of society.Of democracy..and we should celebrate an election ..but there are always buts ..a more modest celebration would seem to be in order.

I see this even in my family and thier friends..where a birthday celebration costs a small fortune..When my 4 year old grandson celebrated his birthday this year ..a place was rented that cost over 150 dollars for two hours and if you also included pizza , drinks, and a cake that was extra.. The place that offers this cant keep up with the reservations..And sometimes I feel like a cheapskate since I dont buy expensive gifts. and I DONT INTEND TO>.

So I see this inaugural the same way...in a book of poems by a famous American writer whose name eludes me now he wrote a poem about slum landlords..now what it really was about was people owning houses all over the country and even in other countries that are seldom used ..in the poems he mentions these deserted neighborhoods...where the only people you see are a caretaked while the owner is living in another house somewhere else,.

Now you can argue it is thier money and they can do what they wish but my feeling is when an inaugural comes we have people on both sides of the aisle who feel extravagance is the way to go...So I dont see a change coming ..I would like someone to suggest a real way to change this ..and not place blame on the party that won this time ..for it will be the same 4 years from now regardless of who wins..and we still have people here who are living in trailers since Hurricane Hazel and companies who were destroyed and people losing thier livelihoods because of that The insurance they carried did not cover thier losses ...and no one seems to care..Just thinking about the whole subject anna

I remembered the writer and tried to edit my post and was told YOU DONT HAVE ACCESS TO THIS POST..

It was John Updike and book of poems was called Americana ..anna

Kiwi Lady, thank you for the explanation for the Monarchy having checks and balances. I was interested in the vote of no confidence. Well, who brings about this vote of no confidence? Does a member of Parliament arbitrarily call for this vote?
Also, I do believe that every four years the presidential inaugurals are an extravagant waste of money. However, this cost is shouldered by private donations. Whereas the cost of sustaining the royal family is tremendous and on going. I understand that this expenditure is shouldered by the taxpayer.
Horselover and Howzat, most Presidents do not have a good time during their second term because they are considered "Lame Ducks" due to the fact that they cannot be reelected. It is important for the President to get his agenda through in the first two years of his second term. Years three and four are considered the out-years and usually his agenda dosen't get much consideration from Congress because their eyes are already on the next presidential election and who the candidates from each party may be. Therefore, from what I have read and heard on the news, Congress waits to see who next may be sitting in the Oval Office and what his agenda calls for. The Out-years for any President are not that President's strong years.

Bill H

Anna, the cost of living today is so high. I see the same high cost of the items you mentioned here in my area. I was surprised at the cost of bedding myself. The only reason I can think of for this is that they are necessary items and are priced as high as the traffic will bear. I often wonder how a young couple with children and a modest income manages.
Yes, the cost of new homes is staggering. The price of large new homes is the same here. I read in a consumer magazine that a contractor does not want to construct the more modest devilling because the cost of labor, material, etc. prevents the contractor from realizing the profit he is striving for. and can realize from the construction of large new home.
As I ride around the area, I see these big beautiful homes and think what great houses to have holiday parties. I was raised in a very large house and it was great at Christmas time to see the house decorated for our religious holiday.
But who can afford these big new homes. There most be a lot of people making a lot of money. I suppose these houses are for the professional people and, of course, the tort lawyers.

Anna, you mentioned the high cost of family birthday parties. Well, a few years ago, I was talking with the very senior lady who lives next door to me about Christmas presents and birthday presents and she told me her Christmas dinner cost about a thousand dollars. This lady does have seven children some of which are married and have children of their own, but, even so, I can't see the expense of her home cooked dinner costing this much unless she buy very expensive wines and champagnes. Bill H

The cost of homes here is staggering too. I live in a tiny 3 bed cottage which I own and its worth $250,000. Its doubled in value in 9yrs.

My sons home is $800,000 he owns that outright too because he has a building company and of course built it himself at cost. Its his fourth home.

Daughter up the road from me has house valued at $495,000 its her second home.

Other daughter has tiny one bed apartment in an exclusive seaside suburb which is worth close to $300,000.

People on even reasonable incomes now will be finding it very hard to get into their first homes. It seems to be world wide! Homes are expensive wherever there is work opportunities.

My sister lives in our old family home which she bought off my parents and had renovated and extended and the homes around her are almost $1,000,000. I asked her who is buying them and she says Asian and South African immigrants.

Foreigners are buying up all our coastal land and soon like Britain ordinary NZers will not be able to have a cheap holiday at the beach on camping sites that families have gone to for three or four generations. Its so sad! Its not progress for the ordinary man in the street, maybe for the rich! We seem to have regressed from the progress made after WW2 where the leaders all worked for an equitable society. We are going backwards to where society is becoming more polarised. The Haves and the Have nots and not much in between!

An interesting article By Ann McFeatters, Post-Gazette National Bureau appeared in that paper this morning about some of the prices charged to watch the parade, protestors, and photos. It is an interesting review and if you care to read it please click on the link below.
http://post-gazette.com/pg/05021/445945.stm

Bill H

Inauguration 1951

The smiles on the faces of the two men contradict their true feelings for one another. They did not like each other.

The dislike started on Eisenhower's inauguration day. When General Eisenhower's car pulled up in front of the White House to take the both of them to the swearing in ceremony, President Truman sent a messenger to Eisenhower's car with an invitation to have lunch with Harry and Bess. The lunch had already been prepared and was waiting for the General and his wife.

General Eisenhower refused, saying that he did not wish to enter the Whitehouse until he was sworn in as President of the United States. President Truman took this effrontery as not only an insult to the President of the United States but also to his wife Bess Truman.

It took many years for Harry Truman to treat President Eisenhower in a cordial manner other than the respect due him as President. .

Bill H

Howzat, I guess you are correct--Clinton escaped actual impeachment, but not the horrible months of scandal which seemed to age him tremendously. I agree with those of you who think his feeling for the common man was genuine.

Annafair, Real estate prices in the San Francisco Bay area are incredibly high. I had to spend much more than I wanted to so I could move here and be closer to my family.

IMPEACHMENT OF PRESIDENT WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON

According to everything I've read, impeachment is an indictment. So Clinton may have been impeached, but not convicted at the Senate impeachment trial. Does anyone know whether he is considered to have been impeached?

Well, I googled the question, and yes Bill Clinton was impeached--the second president to have been impeached. At the impeachment trial he was found not guilty.

Sorry about my mistake.

I watched part of the second inauguration of President Bush and when the cameras showed the faces of the three former Presidents, Carter Bush and Clinton, I was amazed at how much former President Clinton had aged...Although this may be due to the recent heart bypass surgery he had. His hair is snow white.

Bill H

Yes, it is amazing that Bill Clinton still has any amount of health. The stamina of the man, his ability to continue to function well amidst the turmoil is a big part of his legacy.

Y'all who are amazed and shocked at the inflated cost of homes may take comfort in the fact that they're not owned by their inhabitants but by banks and can be lost in less than 90 days. Those of us with more modest homes who own them outright have only two things to fear - Mother Nature with her hurricanes, floods and earthquakes - and a government which can confiscate it by ever-rising taxes.

The tragedy of September 11 was but a loose rail in the train wreck that our self-anointed "war president" has wrought not only on our nation but the world. There's not a Roosevelt or Kennedy - or a Kerry for that matter - who'll be able to put even just the engine back on the tracks in a generation.

This industrial giant is bent on turning into a service-oriented dwarf (pardon, "height disadvantaged human") who excels at teaching our detractors the blessings of Capitalism and then importing its wares.

Enjoyed your photos.

Ladies
If any of you watched the inauguration and any of the Inauguration Balls, what did you think of the nice wearing apparel Laura Bush wore at the swearing in ceremony and the gown she wore at the ball. I thought she looked great on both occasions

Bill H

Bill: As hard as I tried to find a channel that specializes in showing paint drying or grass growing, I couldn't help seeing some of the pomp but take your word on her get-up.

May I join in? I was unable to watch any of the inauguration proceedings, but I don't think I would have anyway. I look at it as a "second wedding" where the people directly involved celebrate, but the big hoopla of inviting everyone and going all out is inappropriate.

Regardless of who paid for the bash, the money could have been more appropriately spent in this year of tragedies and deficits.

N

Nlhome
You are very welcome to join in the discussion. I liked your description of the inauguration as a "second wedding." It was a big bash. A little too much especially in this time of war.
I felt some resentment towards this extravaganza as I watched the "old men" sitting in the presidential grandstands in contrast to the young men and women in uniform, the flower of American youth, parading by the grandstand virtually being ignored by those sitting in attendance. How many of these young men and women are to be sent to the war in Iraq. . I thought "…how much better it would've been to place the highlighting of the hoopla on these soldiers, Marines, Air men/women, and Navy personnel rather than having all the Inaugural Balls."
I can appreciate the ceremony of administrating the oath of office, but the rest could've been dispensed with.
Gunther
If you can receive C-Span on your TV, you can watch the paint drying and the grass growing over and over again. I'm sure C-Span will be carrying this event for many more days.

Bill H

It's always been said--old men start wars and young men fight them.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that all male seniors would be in favor of starting wars. Definitely not our peace-loving group. And let's not forget that we have women in Congress some of whom may have voted for this war, too.

Horselover,
Yes, that is true. It is much easier to vote for war than to go to war
By the way, what did you think of Laura Bush's wearing apparal?

Bill H

Bill H: I didn't see a detailed answer from Kiwi Lady to your questions about votes of non-confidence, (I might have accidentally missed it) so thought I'd throw in an answer. This is common in parliamentary systems where you have more than two parties (eg: Britain, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc). Votes of non-confidence happen occasionally in Canada. An example of the way it works is as follows: Party 'A' might get its members elected to 40% of the seats in parliament, while party 'B' gets 30% and party 'C' gets 30%. Party 'A' forms the government because it has the most votes. But since it has only 40% of the seats, it has a 'minority' government. During the term, a member of party 'B' might call for a vote of non-confidence, and if all members of parties 'B' and 'C' support the non-confidence vote, a new election will have to be called. To avoid this happening, party 'A' will usually form an alliance with one of the other parties. These alliances don't always last, and then the risk of a non-confidence vote becomes high. Hope this was informative without being too boring. -Bob H (Canadian living in Finland, who just found this site)

Bill: Yes, I have at least two of them. Thanks for the warning, had not tried to watch it since the coronation.

Hi guy. Thanks for the info on "no-vote" in parlimentary systems. BTW, what kind of national health system does Finland have? Would you go over to the Social Security discussion (click on Discussions, then scroll down to Health Matters and click again, then scroll down to the "S" and click on Social Security) and tell us how it works?

We could discuss the plans for Social Security here, since they have now become a current issue and were featured in the inauguration speech. I read somewhere that they were thinking of raising the retirement age again--perhaps to eighty. This is totally ridiculous! It's true that most seniors are healthier than ever and live longer, but I think they would really rebel against paying into S.S. for their whole working lives and then possibly never collect a dime, or collect for only a few years. This seems like a backdoor way to eliminate S.S. and use the funds for other purposes.

Aside from their plans for the future of S.S., our government has allowed the dollar to depreciate by about 20% over the past year or so. That means your S.S. payment may be worth that much less in purchasing power. So, in a way, there has already been an unpublicized cut in benefits even though they claim to be compensating for inflation.

Of course, Congress does notparticipate in the S.S. system, so they are unaffected by these problems unless they get voted out of office by angry constituents.

Horselover.
I kind of figure that the present administration would like to do away with Social Security altogether. And, of course, raising the retirement age to 80 is ridiculous. I watched on C-Span the commentator explaining that SS is solvent for the next forty or fifty years. So why the rush to overhaul the system that has been working so well? I wonder if Social Security recipients will get a cost of living allowance next year? If they plan on reducing benefits this would be a likely place to start.The administration has to do something to help offset the cost of the war in Iraq.
However I think that would be political suicide for any member of Congress that votes to cut the COL increase.

Bill H

I just heard today that the administration is asking for more money for Iraq. I wonder how this will all end. Will we keep spending lives and money and then eventually simply go home leaving a mess behind?

This has nothing to do with the inauguration, but I wanted to say how sorry I was to hear about the death of Johnny Carson. I guess many of our generation watched him at some time. I know my daughter and I did. He probably would have lived longer if he had stopped smoking.

Many of the TV and radio talk shows are saying that Senator Clinton may seek her party's nomination for president in 2008.

Do you believe she will seek her party's nomination ?

Do you feel we may be seeing her take the oath of office in January 2009?

Would you vote for Senator Hillary Clinton?

Bill H

Having read Hillarys book I see her as extremely intelligent with a good all round grasp of world affairs and economics. We have had two women Prime Ministers. Our present PM is a very strong woman and no pushover she really does run the show. I think Hillary is just as strong.

It is time for the US to have a woman President as its lagging well behind the rest of the world.

Every important post in our land at the present is held by a woman even the post of Governor General, Chief Justice and Attorney General.

Carolyn

Hey Howzat, Hope you don't mind; I took Horselover's advice and just answered here. The Finnish Health Care system is probably not the best model to look at. It's a two-tier, user-pay system. You can choose to go to a private doctor or dentist (more expensive) or a public doctor or dentist (long waits, drunks in the waiting room). Either way, you pay for each visit up front. Then you apply to 'KELA' (the Finnish social security system) for a partial reimbursement. I've lived in the USA, Canada and Finland, and I've found the Canadian system to be the best so far. The thing that really turned me off about the Finnish system is the bureaucracy. Here, you're assigned to a specific clinic when you register in the system, and you're supposed to only use that clinic. One time I rushed my wife to the nearest hospital with chest pains (she has a family history of fatal heart attacks). They refused to see us because it wasn't the hospital we were assigned to! After some futile begging/pleading/arguing, we ended up rushing outside and hailing a cab to take us to the 'correct' hospital. It turned out to be an inflamed chest muscle. If it had been an actual heart attack, I'd probably be a widower now. In Canadian hospitals, they deal with the medical issue first and bureacracy/payments/paperwork afterward. Once you get past the bureaucracy, the Finnish doctors and dentists themselves are thoroughly professional, well trained, and the facilities and equipment are top-notch. Hope this is useful info.

I do not see a woman president, in 2008 or even in the future. Or a woman vice president either. The United States does not have a liberal majority. For a woman to be elected president, a large number of Republicans would have to "cross over" on election day. Margaret Thatcher and Golda Meir were anomalies. Australia is an exception. Things happen in Australia that happen no where else.

Thanks, Bob. Is it really true that the Finns don't smile or laugh very often?

I read in The Guardian the other day that it was being suggested that the British model for government retirement benefits be changed to be more like the social security system in the United States! That news made me sit up straight. It seems that the countries that have the most beneficial health and retirement systems don't spend money starting wars and lowering taxes for the wealthy.

I have my doubts about Hillary as President. In her one attempt at administrative policy making, the health care reform committee she chaired, she was a complete failure. She hasn't done badly as a NY senator, but being a legislator is not the same thing. There are lots of women in the US who would make a good President, but Hillary has the most national name recognition. Whether she will run probably depends on what the economy and the situation in Iraq are like as we get near the end of the Bush administration. If they provide her with some issues, she'll jump in, but I'm sure she'll have competition for the nomination.

There needs to be a neutral somebody/writer that can look closely at the Health Care Reform Committee that Hillary chaired and give us a book that covers what exactly happened. A lot of the bruha was about the Mr and Mrs President thing. Bill made a mistake in appointing his wife to be on the committee at all, much less being the chair. Hillary, who was considered by most as just being The First Lady, came off looking like she was making a power grab.

I don't know whether or not Hilary Clinton will run for President in 2008. However, I wonder if the phrase "bring intelligence back to the White House" would turn off more people than it would bring aboard. If she ran, I would probably vote for her.

Bob, I'm very glad I don't live in Finland and thank you for that informative post. Would paying upfront also apply to an expensive surgery?

Bill H

Continuing on with the thread that the graphic I posted in #111 initiated, I would like your opinion of the following two questions:
Do you feel the United States is ready for a female president?
Do you not feel the United States is ready for a female president.
Perhaps you could give a reason for your answer.

Bill H

Hillary is a very good lawyer and her health plan was very good. I believe the only reason it was not voted for was because that type of health plan has never been popular amongst the American public in general. They don't like Govt running anything. Why I don't know. It was doomed for failure because of the culture you have there.

I forgot to mention that about the health plan being very good. But, like you say, it didn't/doesn't stand a chance. All the Republicans have to do is yell, Socialist, Socialist, over and over. But, indeed, what we need is a NATIONAL HEALTH PLAN. For everybody. Thru the government, not thru private insurers.

Bill and Hillary were really upset that the Plan did not go through it was one of the hopes that was nearest to their hearts - that no American should go without access to decent healthcare. Hillary got very interested in the health Industry when she did some voluntary legal work for a Charity that had a residential home for disabled children when she was a very new lawyer. It is all in her book if anyone cares to read it. Its not a book you can skim through its full of all sorts of information. The overall impression you get is that she really cares about people even though she has that sort of reserved and composed public personna.

Carolyn

Some of the cable news programs have hinted that Jeb Bush, the brother of the President, and Governor of Florida, may seek his party's nomination for presidential candidate in 2009. It was suggested that this would create a family dynasty, starting with the father and continuing with the sons.
Do you feel such a dynasty this would create would be good for the country?

Bill H

Actually, Bill, it started with Bush the Elder's father, Preston Bush, and is already a political dynasty.

Howzat and Bill H: My rant about Finland's health care bureaucracy may have given a pretty negative overall impression. There's also lots that's positive, as well as some other frustrating negatives

. For young families with both parents working, the daycare system is absolutely excellent. Also, the education system is very highly rated around the world, and university education is tuition-free (most kids who go to university simply go on and get their master's degree, so a mere bachelor's degree doesn't carry much weight here). The pension system is also excellent. Banking is very high-tech, but customer service at banks is nothing to write home about. The stereotype of the non-talkative grim Finn applies to a lot of the older generation, but the young people I work with at the Nokia R&D campuses here are very gregarious and outward-looking. Finnish is EXTREMELY difficult to learn, but most young people and many store clerks speak enough English, that I can get away with my pathetically limited Finnish. I live in a very small city called Oulu, about 100 km south of the Arctic Circle. Oulu is known for its technical university and one of the largest technology parks in Europe.

Now about a woman as president: In my opinion, a democracy is not truly mature until the issue of the gender or colour of the leader is no longer a topic of discussion. I'm old enough to remember when some people couldn't handle the idea of a Catholic (Kennedy) as president! I think Hillary has some good ideas, and would be better than some male presidents (who I won't name out of diplomacy

By the way, the current President of Finland is a woman lawyer, who was an unwed mother when she was elected in 2000 (she has since married her common-law husband).

I am not in favor of dynasties. We have never had a dynasty in our leadership and neither has Britain or any of the democratic Commonwealth countries that I know of. That is Britain, Canada,Australia, NZ. In fact I think there should be some sort of constitutional law that this could not happen. Gads I could not think of anything worse than three Bushes. (A forest!) Banana Republics seem to go for dynasties but even then I can't think of one that has three in a row. Father and Son yes. Then we had the Ghandis some of whom were assassinated. (India)

Bob,
I compliment you on your informative posts. Very interesting reading.
I would like go back to one of your earlier posts, in which you said you had to take your wife to the nearest hospital and they refused to take care of her because that was not her assigned hospital. Well, my question is this: If you had been several hundred miles away from your assigned hospital, would your wife have been refused care?
Kiwi Lady, would not the Monarchy constitute a dynasty? I suppose I have something in mind like the Ming Dynasty, etc.

Bill H

If Senator Hillary Clinton was elected President in 2009, do you feel Bill Clinton would be the power behind the throne?

Bill H

The question is not whether Hillary's health plan was good or not, but whether she failed to get others (Congress and the American people) to accept it. The job of the President is to lead--to get Congress and the people to back his/her proposals. However, now that she is a Senator, she may be learning more of the skills it takes to be a successful politician.

I definitely think the U.S. is ready for a woman President. Women comprise more than half of the population. They hold positions in virtually every field from which they once were excluded, and they perform as well as men. If Hillary were to be elected President, I don't think Bill would be the power behind the throne. In fact, she may have held that post when he was President. It will be interesting to see what role the husband would play if the U.S. had a woman President. The First Lady has such a large ceremonial role. Would the First Husband plant flower gardens? Give tours of the White House? Host teas?

Bill - We have a Constitutional Monarchy. The Monarch has no power over day to day legislation in our Parliament. She is basically a figure head with only one power left really - the power to dissolve Parliament if a vote of no confidence is passed. When this has happened as it did in Australia I believe she was invited to invoke this power. It has been a very long time since the British Monarchy actually had any power to Govern the country.

Our PM's husband does not do anything like that- he has his own career but he does accompany her to some important occasions but often she goes alone. Their home is in Auckland and most Politicians here fly home at weekends to other parts of NZ to hold clinics for their Constituents. I do know Helens husband does all the cooking in the household. They don't have any sort of live in help at home. They have Govt employees at the PMs residence in Wellington to do the day to day running of the house but I don't think Vogel house is used except for official engagements by the PM to entertain friends on a regular basis etc.

I think Bill probably would help Hillary if she became President (when appropriate) just as she supported him while he was in the White House.

Women are just as good as men at taking the Position of Leader. They have done this all over the world for some decades now and done the job as well and in same cases better than the preceding male PM.

Horselover,
Women do comprise more than half of the US population. That is why I believe if Senator Hillary Clinton seeks nomination, the women voters in the Democratic party will unite and vote for her in the primaries. Gosh, we are talking about the primaries already. However, I'm not sure if the women electorate in the Republican Party would unite behind her. They may view Hillary Clinton as to liberal and follow the GOP doctrine of conservatism. That is why I believe you will see Senator Clinton moving more to the center in the next four years.
Kiwi Lady
The Queen does present a solid entity for the people, but I am appalled at some of the scandals the royal family has endured in the last decade. Now, one of her grandsons (at the moment I forget which prince it was) donned a Nazi uniform with the Swastika arm band for some silly social affair or other. Good grief wasn't the young man schooled in what Europe suffered at the hands of the National Socialist Party, and the terrible ordeal Great Britain was put through during the war years.. I'm sure my grandmother who was born and raised in England would have said that all of this is the reason way the Queen continues to stay, hoping that the next in line for the throne matures.

Bill H

Hi, folks. It's my opinion that Hillary Clinton wouldn't stand a chance if she were nominated for the presidency. This country is resistant to change, especially so since the 9/11 tragedy.

Plenty of people who voted for our current president in the recent election said they don't like many of things he and his administration are doing. They said they voted for this candidate because they felt safer with him at the helm than they would with another man (and most certainly not a woman) as the head of our country.

Fear plays a big part in our resistance to change, and we don't realize how much it is being encouraged and used by some people in our government.

We're resistant to change, yet I notice that government health insurance (for which we pay) is destined to change. There are other changes that have slid in in the past four years that I don't think we anticipated -- like a recent proposal to borrow even more money to pay for the war in Iraq and add to the huge amount we already owe.

I say get over the fear that dims our eyes and hogties our choices. Wake up to what's going on just because we hold onto our fears so stubbornly, and let reason and not emotion guide our decisions.

Mal

Hi, Mal.
It is interesting to read your comments about voter's resistance to change because of their fear. However, four years from this date the fears we are experiencing now may be a thing of the past. At least let's hope so.
I have to say this in defense of the FEP. I am a federal retiree and I do have the FEHBP (Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan) but, Mal, I do pay a substantial monthly premium to this heath plan and, of course, the government pays a premium also. I don't know of any government employee or retiree that doesn't pay into the plan. Some employees in the private sector enjoy premium free health plan insurance because it is negotiated in union management bargaining.

Bill H

We must not forget to mention the First Ladies in this discussion. Of all the First Ladies that resided in the White House and this includes distant past, recent past, and, of course, the present First Lady, who is your favorite First Lady?

Bill H

Bill: I'll bite:

I have to be somewhat evasive here. There are far more first ladies than hubbies in my list of favorites. Most of them left more enduring positive marks which cannot be said of some of their hubbies.

I suppose the First Lady I admired the most was Eleanor Roosevelt. This gracious lady made the world a better place for all the work she did for humanity. Eleanor Roosevelt had a great interest in trying to help the underprivileged of the world and she was highly respected in many countries for these humanitarian endeavors. Do you remember her newspaper columns "My Day?"
If you care to read more about her, please use this link.

Eleanor Roosevelt

Bill H

The first lady I liked was Grace Coolidge, perhaps because I met her several times in Northampton, Massachusetts where I went to college. A Vermonter like Cal, Grace Coolidge went from doing a good job mending his socks, when they were first married and had little money, to doing the same kind of good job while she moved in high-powered political and social circles as the President's wife. The former first lady I met had no airs or affectation. She was a sensible realist, and a smart one, too. Grace Coolidge worked for a time at the Clarke School for the Deaf in Northampton.

I saw and was introduced to Eleanor Roosevelt, also when I was in college, and have some admiration for her, but not as much as I do for Mrs. Coolidge.

Incidentally, Barbara Bush and Nancy Reagan both went to the college I went to. Since their classes were ahead of mine I never knew either one.

Grace Coolidge

Mal, thank you for the link and for giving us the information about yourself and the past First Ladies.
Folks, tomorrow, Jan 31, will bring to a close our CM discussion about Inaugurations. So if you have any more thoughts about this discussion please post tomorrow.

Bill H

I also admire Eleanor Roosevelt and after Her Hillary Clinton. Eleanor because of her caring and intelligence. Hillary because of her dignity no matter what she was going through personally and because I believe she has a sensible attitude and a good heart.

Kiwi Lady, yes, I agree what you say about Hillary Clinton. She did carry herself with dignity all through the troubles she had to endure.

Bill H

Gunther, how true.

Bill H

Today brings to a close our discussion of Presidential Inaugurations. I thank all of you who participated in this timely topic and I enjoyed reading your many interesting posts.
February will feature another Curious Minds subject and I'm sure it will also be an interesting discussion.
Thanks again for expressing your thoughts.

Bill H

Thank you, BILL. It's been a very good discussion.

Mal

Bill: I also appreciated the content and non-belligerent tone of the posts.

Can't wait to see what the next topic will be! Thanks Bill for guiding this discussion so well.

Thank you all for your participation. This discussion will be Read Only until the new topic is introduced on Feb. 16.

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.
HALF FULL OR HALF EMPTY Pursuing Happiness Is Your Cup Half-Full or Half-Empty How to Stop Worrying The Science of Happiness Time Magazine, January 17, 2005 (available online to subscribers)
How Happy Are You?	What Makes Us Happy?
Click on the links and let's talk it over.

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Pedln

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Which is your cup? Is it half-full or half-empty? Do you consider yourself an optimist or a pessimist? Does it matter? Is it important?

Robert Louis Stevenson says "There is no duty we so much underrate as the duty of being happy. By being happy we sow anonymous benefits upon the world."

Apparently there are many who agree with him. The study of happiness, aka positive psychology, and what makes us happy is a BIG DEAL. WORLDWIDE. It is an academic science with economic impacts. There is even a World DataBase of Happiness.

Some researchers say you can improve your level of happiness by working on three components-- 1)by savoring sensory experiences, 2)by becoming more engaged in what you do, and 3)by finding ways of making your life feel more meaningful. But some are skeptical and doubt that personality is that flexible or that people can change their coping styles.

What do you think? What do you do to brighten your world when it's a gray day outside?

PEDLN: I hate grey days. Sometimes when I feel a little "down," I work on a jigsaw puzzle. That forces me to concentrate and ignore the feelings. Other times I pick up a book. I try to make sure there is light and color around me. Sometimes I get on the computer. I used to eat more when I was moody. Now my eating is under better control. That says to me that I have been able to change the way I cope. I hadn't thought about that before.

That says to me also, Marjorie, that you can change the way you cope. As a matter of fact, in the recent Time Mag cover story, one of its 8 Steps to a More Satisfying Life was to "develop strategies for coping with stress and hardships."

You mentioned reading, and I think any positive activity that absorbs your attention is a good way to get rid of a bad mood. I still remember an incident years ago when I was extremely angry with two teenage daughters. It was a Saturday and housecleaning day for working moms and I just dropped everything and sat down and read. The therapeutic value of doing that still amazes me today.

I find that exercise helps me cope, gives me a better outlook. I don't do formal exercise, though, I go for a walk. Walking on a gray day usually lifts my spirits.I also have a stationary bike I can use, but I prefer to go outside.

Another thing I do when I am feeling down is to accomplish a task that I have put off doing. Sometimes that is just cleaning out a drawer or dusting the light fixtures, but I feel much more positive about my day when the task is completed.

I also am a firm believer in a good cup of coffee and a good book or crossword puzzle. If that's not enough, a good piece of dark chocolate. I love the taste and fragrance of coffee and chocolate.

And finally, when all else fails, sharing that coffee and/or chocolate with a friend and talking about something good.

I put in the CD, crank 'er up at full blast and sing my heart out. When I tire of that I crank up "The Phantom ..." and sing to that. It helps me! I love music and it works for me.

NLHome: Those are wonderful ways to cope. And they DO work! The hardest thing to find something positive about is the death of children. But even then, you can if you try. Example: For us it brought my wife and I closer; it also encouraged us to have additonal children, whom we adored. The hardest thing in life, however, is losing a spouse. For that I have not found anything postive, except it helped me remember all the good times we had together.

Positve-thinking is the only way to go! It would be hard to make a case for negative-thinking.

nlhome, you have given some good examples for getting out of a blue mood. Savoring sensory experiences -- yeah, good coffee and some chocolate. And the house cleaning. Someone said somewhere that the more you have control in your life, the happier you are. As you do those odd jobs around the house, you're demonstrating control.

Music works for me too, Andy, but it's the piano, more than singing. Just losing yourself in what you're doing.

Bill, it sounds like you have had some very difficult times in your life, yet have managed to come out on top -- you have a wonderful positive attitude. I can't imagine anything more difficult than losing a child.

Edward Diener of the U. of Illinois, aka Dr. Happiness, has researched happiness for over two decades. He says the two most devastating life events are loss of one's spouse and loss of a job. He says it can take 5 to 8 years before a widow regains her previous sense of well-being, and that the effects of job loss linger long after one returns to the work force.

Have you tried the links under those full/empty cups? The smiley one offers a happiness "test" and the other a guide to how the rest of the world feels.

Many years ago our family doctor, while counselling me about depression gave me a list of Life-changes with the amount of stress caused by different ones, like a score-card. I have always remembered that he said at that time, "Any big change in your life, whether a ahange for the good, or for the bad causes stress."

I hope I will be able to find that list--packrat that I am, I know I still have it. I think you all might like to see it.

-those of you that know me but- I scored normal. that doesn't happen very often. I am satisfied with most all aspects of my life. Being human, I could think of a few additional bonus'es that would just double my pleaasure. Hey, what the he** it doesn't hurt to want, does it?

How long will this subject be discussed--is there a time limit?

What a great topic for discussion. I think I am for the most part a happy person, think positive about most things . We can choose to make the best of a situation or allow ourselves to be destroyed by them ..

Losing a child would be the worst thing I can imagine in the world and my heart goes out to those who have suffered that sorrow, Losing a beloved spouse is another but again it is really up to us to accept it. For me I found out I had to make new memories or the old ones would destroy me. Luckily I bought a computer and found SN< I took classes at the local university, made a whole group of new friends ..yes I still have some from the past but many of those are widows who just were content to still be an extension of what they were before, Many of my new friends are widows too but we have moved on as much as possible,

I found I could express my grief through poetry and when I could finally write something light I knew I was moving on, The loss is still there and I finally accepted that ..it will never go away but all the good memories, the funny things we did, the many places we lived all help me to just give thanks we had those years.

When I am down , I find just doing what I want to do helps, It may be taking a walk , reading a book, or sewing.I find sewing is something I do that relaxes me in ways nothing else does. The problem solving keeps my mind occupied ,..I dont mind ripping out a bad seam or starting over or whatever is needed to complete the job.One thing I found in sewing when a project was finished it was DONE! I may start another one but that one is completed and never has to be done again!

Cleaning the house is never ending, cooking (which I love) is never ending. Finishing a book is good but sometimes the story line stays with me for a long time In sewing I just have a great sense of satisfaction and I have family who have special needs in that area so I have that special relief as well.

AND a good piece of dark chocolate helps tremendously! Taking care of my bird feeders, picking some flowers to bring in the house, yesterday I went out and picked the dead flowers from my pansies and then picked a small nosegay to bring in the house. They are in small clear glass vases in the kitchen and dining room NOW that cheers me and I SAW A ROBIN THE OTHER DAY!

I know this ia a long post but I am Irish and have the gift of gab!!! And how is this for positive thinking "I am really 5'7", blonde , willowly and 22!" Now those who have met me DONT TELL ANYONE ELSE I am really only 5', grey haired, pleasingly plump ( it pleases me to be plump) and a senior lady...Smiling at everyone..anna

I am in hearty agreement with your post, Annafair. I liked the way you expressed that doing what you want to do at the moment, especially sewing, helps you relax and get out of the doldrums. And the lovely way you describe the simple joy of picking flowers, seeing the first robin - Maybe it’s the little moments that pile up into a giant mountain of happiness.

I remember noticing that I felt completely contented and absolutely happy very early one very cold winter morning snuggled up with my brand new baby and husband beneath a huge quilt.

Last summer, my daughter and I were on the upstairs porch watching her husband arriving home from work. She turned to me smiling and said “Look how lucky I am, such a handsome husband, such a sweet new baby.” She had noticed that she was having a 100% contented and absolutely happy moment. By sharing her happiness with me, she gave me a 100% happy moment too.

It’s good to pay attention, and notice when you’re happy. It’s good to spread that happiness around by telling somebody about it. - JudyS

Welcome to our newcomers, Anna, Lenalu, and Judy. It's good to see you here. Lenalu, in answer to you question, Curious Minds usually runs for two weeks or the last half of the month. I hope you can find the score card for life changes. I think everyone would be interested.

Anna and Judy, thank you both for reminding all of us that happiness in life can be found daily in small events -- in only we would look for them. Your daughter is a very wise young woman, Judy. And Anna, you seem able to create long lasting moments of happiness such as the lingering story line. You both do what a U. of California (Sonya Lyubomirksy) recommends in her Eight Steps to a More Satisfying Life. Her first step is "count your blessings" and she suggests keeping a "gratitude journal" each week, writing down 3 to 5 things for which you are currently thankful. And keep it fresh by varying your entries.

Andy, I don't think it hurts to want. This isn't exactly applicable, but one of my mother's favorite sayings, mostly geared towards young people, was "Well, what will she have to look forward to when she's 25?" My question is now, what about when you're 60? 80? 90? What we want or look forward to may change as the years go by, but can any of you imagine a life without something to look forward to.

I remember my 102-year-old uncle, sitting in his hospital room after a heart attack, dressed in his best paisley robe, waiting for a representative from a French consulate to come award him the French Legion of Honor medal (which the French were giving to WWI vets who served in France.) Then word came that the French had had to cancel the presentation until later. "Well," my uncle quipped, "I guess I'll just have to live a few more weeks."

Leanalu, this may not be your list, but it looks like one I found in college. Wasn't Maslov, can't remember who, but this one is Uof Washington. check it out: http://my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/ta5715.asp

What an interesting site, Jackie, rating life changes on a scale ranging from 18 (for taking a work-related class) to 123 (death of a child.) You then note changes for a 6-mo to 2-yr period. A score of 300 points in 6-mo shows high stress in your life.

I was surprised that retirement was as high as 52 points, but it is certainly a major life change. As Lenalu's doctor told her, even good things can cause stress in your life.

U. of California psychologist Sonja Lyubomirsky lists these "Eight Steps to a More Satisfying Life." I don't know if they're in any particular order.

1. Count your blessings
2. Practice acts of kindness
3. Savor life's joys
4. Thank a mentor
5. Learn to forgive
6. Invest time and energy in friends and family
7. Take care of your body
8. Develop strategies for coping with stress and hardships.

Another happiness researcher, Martin Seligman, takes No. 4 even further. "The single most effective way to turbocharge your joy is to make a gratitude visit." In other words, you write a testimonial or letter to someone to whom you owe a debt of gratitude. Then you visit that person and read him or her the letter.

Seligman says people who do this are measurably happier even a month later. But that feeling is gone within three months. For more lasting happiness results he recommends a DAILY happiness journal -- three things each day for which you're grateful -- which many of you are doing, mentally, if not in writing.

What do you think?

Thanks, Jackie, for the link; that list of Stress Points is much more comprehensive than the one my doctor gave me. Everybody should look at that--it surely will open your eyes and help to understand what stress can do.

I am especially thankful to you for coming up with that, for I was really getting stressed out trying to figure out where in the devil I could have squirreled that paper away--looked in my "Health Folder"==not there. I was thinking why did I mention it, when I wasn't sure I could find it. LOL

Pedln, that list of 8 steps for a more satisfying life is really a good thing. I definitely will copy it and put up where I can see it.

Anna, I remember you telling me about "I am really 5'7" blonde, willowy and 22" I think that is so good, really. Everybody should have that attitude. It is an attitude and your whole demeanor is one of optimism. It is something wonderful that you have and you spread around.

Pedln. A wonderful discussion, it gives me a lift just talking about Pursuing happiness.

"Another study in The Journal of Neurology assessed the psychological status of 800 older people. It reported that those who were more inclined to anger, depression, anxiety and feelings of hopelessness were twice as likely to develop Alzheimer's disease than those who possessed a high "joy factor"

Eloïse

ELOISE, I believe that applies to many things besides Alzheimer's. Carrying around that sort of baggage is injurious to ones health, physically, mentally and emotionally.

I heard someone say recently that depression is anger turned inward. I can readily believe that. I don't suppose that includes the chemical imbalance type of depression. On the other hand, stifled anger may be what brought on the chemical imbalance in the first place.

I come from a relaxed, laid-back family, and we don't spend much time hanging on to anger. Life is too short.

Babi

Eloise and Babi, welcome, glad you're here. Others have done studies that back up your comments about how negative feelings can cause health problems. A Harvard psychologist decided to study optimism and its effects. She tracked 1300 men for 10 years and found that heart-disease rates among those who called themselves optimists were half that of those who were pessimists. Another study showed that hopefulness and curiousity were protective against high blood pressure, diabetes, and upper-respiratory infection.

We've mentioned the gratitude journal here, and in a study of three groups, the group that used the journal was not only happier, but more of them exercised and took routine health protections, such as using sunscreen, than those in the other two groups.

Where did I learn that ??I am not sure but I know I think positively as much as possible... Somewhere I have a poem I wrote about the person in my mirror.. YES I could see the person I am today but there is a part of me that sees the person I used to be ..the 22 year old, The young woman I was and when I am dressed to go out I see her there, Her face unwrinkled, her hair full and bouncy , auburn, her smile still intact ..no dentures to change the way her mouth is shaped and her eyes are twinkling ..but when I go to someones house or see my reflection in a mirror that girl is no longer there ..so I have come to the conclusion my home has magic mirrors ..they see the REAL me and so when I see THIS usurper in other places I smile because I know she doesn't exist! That 22 year old is me.. and she is for real! Now that is positive thinking on the highest level..anna

When a positive-thinker hears an idea or suggestion, he/she first listens for the BENEFITS that will occur if the idea is accepted. Second, he/she realizes there may be PROBLEMS connected with the idea, but knows that there are usually SOLUTIONS to the PROBLEMS. So their thought sequence is: BENEFITS..PROBLEMS..SOLUTIONS.

Negative-thinkers never see the benefits or solutions, their mind sees only PROBLEMS and therefore the idea is not accepted. Their life stays narrow and dull, and they become unhappy people.

Another thing about the positive thinker, Bill. He usually knows what will be the worst that will happen with a solution and what will be the best that will happen, so that when he moves ahead he is prepared for whatever.

Another study about optimists and pessimists found that when optimists encounter an unsolvable problem, the spend less time on strategies that don't work or produce good results. Pessimists, on the other hand, tend to stick with one approach, no matter how futile. It may be that the coping skills demonstrated here are what help optimists get along better in life.

I have been having a big problem with this concept of the "pursuit of happiness" --

I understand not only is Natural Law the basis for the Declaration of Independence but the "pursuit of happiness" is one of the "unalienable rights" of people, along with "life" and "liberty." included in Natural Law which is the basis of the Declaration.

The Declaration of Independence continues with "The right to pursue any lawful business or vocation, in any manner not inconsistent with the equal rights of others, which may increase their prosperity or develop their faculties, so as to give them their highest enjoyment."

But the "pursuit of happiness" is not in the US Constitution although it is included in several state constitutions. Because the right is not set forth in the U. S. Constitution, it is not enforceable by the Federal courts.

The state Constitutions, in their Declaration of Rights, provide that "all men are created equally free and independent; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

And this is where the spill over also an issue of States Rights enters the picture. For instance - For most people, marriage would be considered "in the pursuit of happiness."The United States Supreme Court, in recognizing that marriage is a fundamental right, stated that "the freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness."

The phrase "equally free and independent" can mean, among other things,

equally not subject to the legal constraint of another and equally self-governing;
equally at liberty and not subject to control, restriction, or limitation from a given outside source;
equally governed by consent and possessing civil liberties and free from the influence, guidance, or control of another.

In our headlong pursuit of happiness the arguments now about assisted suicide are based on if it makes someone happy to be free from pain and a useless existance...tra la la...

Which begs the questions whose death is it - the doctors, the families, the states, the individual.

but for me the biggest issue is if we are valuing happiness this highly, with most young people able to justify all sorts of behavior as preferable because it is about the pursuit of happiness - or the choices of most of us over what we eat, wear, listen to, what subject matter we think will benefit our future pursuit of happiness through economic achievement, on and on - I have to ask where does sacrifice fit into all this.

How do we honor sacrifice above all else if today we are saying happiness and its pursuit holds sway on the top of the honor heap...that it is important to measure our ability to see the world with happy eyes or with a sad view...because we honor the pursuit of happiness above sacrifice !?!

When was the last time we saw a modern movie about someone's sacrifice for the greater good or for what they believed - without honoring sacrifice we are not reading novels or poetry with the heartbreaking bereavement of the ancients - the depth of impossible proportions that demanded terrible triage.

Barbara - That is todays society. Be Happy! Don't worry! Self comes first and ones own happiness. Not sure if thats good for us. I know my father never worried about a thing and did some dreadful things to his family. He sure has lived a long time with hardly a line on his face. Thats because he cared about nobody or nothing except his own happiness.

Happiness for me is in simple things. Hearing a tiny voice say "I love you Gran" Watching a sunrise. Watching the gulls wheel above my house. Smelling the salt air. Hearing a train whistle in the distance on a still night. Watching the waves crash onto the beach on a wild windy day. These things bring happiness to me.

The nicest thing about those moments of happiness, Carolyn, is that one does not have to pursue them; they slip in unannounced and take us by surprise.

I agree with Barbara about the concept of 'pursuit of happiness'. Happiness, to me, is a by-product of how one lives one's life. To actively 'pursue' happiness for oneself requires a focus on self that, to me, shuts off the most important avenues by which happiness can come; ie., through caring about other people.

Babi

This pursuit of happiness attitude has me pensive - we are all so busy showing that we can put the best face on what should be lamentations, keening, disconsoling sorrow, as soldiers return to be buried - I'm thinking of the stories of past warriors who were brought home on their shields and the women in black, with long strands of hair wet from tears, honor with wails at the loss while Bards sing of their bravery.

Today we must not cry during the public ceremony - if we do, it must be done quietly, preferably a tear but a sob is comforted as if a weakness. The woman's black weeds is a crisp black suit or dress and, with the timing of a drill team the shots are fired, the bugle blows, the flag is lifted, folded and handed to the widow.

In our pursuit of happiness we must not burden the public, family or friends with a display of grief - we no longer take refuge in shrouding ourselves as we honor our fallen warriors - or for that matter the warrior in all of us that could be honored at the graveside.

I am not talking about the unnecessary dismal feeling of melancholy or dejection or a protracted despondency that some folks carry around in place of a lightsome spirit. I am talking about the full fledged drum banging dirge, some of which we saw when firemen were waked in their death march to their church in New York City.

I think we are so busy playing at happy that we do not appropriately act on the deep feelings within nor do we honor the losses in our lives. It is as if we want others to make us feel better and if we or our loved ones experience one of life's brutalities we want the perpetrator of that brutality to make us feel better or else, we feel betrayed, resentful and angry demanding they should be made to suffer on our terms.

I'm thinking if there was a collective community acknowledgment mourning the aching void of whatever the loss, retribution would not be first on the lips of those closest to the victims.

Just some results of what I see with our great concern for happiness. To me happiness should not be pursued at the expense of honoring sacrifice. I do believe if we got back to placing sacrifice on a pedestal our priorities would change and our nobility along with honorable behavior would have value.

Barbara, you make some valid points. Yet, each of us responds to stimuli (both good and not so good) in different ways.

I can say from personal experience that it took quite a bit of grieving (for me, it is a VERY private affair) before I managed to find a means of dealing with my husband's death from illness.

When the little joys come along (the beauty of a tiny baby, the brush of my cat against my leg, a sudden smile from a stranger, an unexpected glimpse of a rainbow...), I have learned to savor these moments, to let myself enjoy these small happinesses and let them brighten my day.

Ruth Ann

Barbara it is so good to see you posting...and with many,many good thoughts about pursueing happiness. You are right that many pursue happiness or in my mind ,,,wealth and possessions ..I see that everywhere..You would think you could take it with you..I dont think of myself as pursueing happiness but as making the best of what life has dealt me.

I know it took me a whole year to accept the finality of my husbands death and then it nearly destroyed me to know it was final Not just a bad dream but reality. And the sad thing I found was after about three months if I still grieved openly I was told by many people that knew us both IT WAS TIME TO MOVE ON..well it is has been 11 years and I did move on BUT there isnt a day that goes by I dont grieve for him...

Perhaps the reason many dont show or share thier grief is because no one wants to hear it ..or as you say honor it! My husband is buried at Arlington but long before he was honored there I could and still cant pass a military cemetary without feeling an overwhelming sense of loss. And when I have an occassion to go to a funeral anywhere but especially at a military cemetary I walk among the markers there and note the age , the time of death and the branch of service..For those who remains have been there for a long time with surely no one still alive I say a prayer and give thanks for their lives..I want them to know they are remembered. I dont share that to elict admiration but like you if we honored and remembered all of our dead and I dont mean thinking of a day set aside for that by shopping or picnics but a true honoring perhaps , just perhaps we would all recognize the sacrifices many of our countrymen make,

And we should as many have said find happiness not in things, not in accomplishments even, but in the smile of others, in the laughter of chldren, in sunrise, and sunsets, and moon glows ,and butterflies and showing we truly care about each other..that would bring the whole world happiness...GOD BLESS ALL

My second practicetoday.

EDIT -- I see ya'll have moved on, but I want to comment on annafair's comments on the person in the mirror. My friend Tim Henderson is a great songwriter who usually performs his own music. My favorite song of his is called "Maria Consuelo Arroya" -- a song with a magnificent melody that traces the story of a woman from just a teenager to being elderly who over the years loses her husband in the war and her eight children.

The song also portrays time in several different ways over the years. But each chorus carries the idea that "there's no wrinkled crone, in her dry skin and bones, who is not a young girl in her heart." That's why this discussion made me think of the song. Because it's so true -- that we DO still feel like the young girl (or boy) in our heart and we can't quite recognize the person in the mirror.

The song begins with the idea that time is a lover, because when we're young, we're beautiful and have all the time in the world (we think). The first verse also says time is "a river that sweeps us along in its steams; brings us together and forces us cruelly apart..."

The second and third verses continue tracing Maria Consuelo's story -- the second verse says time becomes a traitor, a "villain who stalks on our stage; the bringer of heartache and the bringer of wrinkles and age." The third verse says "Time's the black angel, a dark currandero who brings the long sleep; Time is the shepherd and he's keeping good watch on his sheep. So he brings back together the souls that he once tore apart..." (a "currandero" is a Mexican/Mayan shaman)

In the end, however, the song says time is once again a lover because it brings back to us all that we have loved.

I encourage you SeniorNetters to find some of Tim's music and listen to it. By the way, he's a Senior, too. (He'd have to be to write that song, I think!)

My cup is half full at this time but by the end of this year will be full I hope as I am preparing this house to become a home for the one that I love.

Lots of new faces today. Welcome to all of you, Carolyn, Barbara, Ruth Ann, Songbird, and Ginger. Snrnt4, we'd love to hear from you.

Barbara, as Ruth Ann says, you raise some interesting points. I'm not sure I equate hedonism with optimism or with striving for a happier outlook on life, but I understand your concerns. A society that lives only for material goods and services is certainly headed for trouble. But I look at our country and see things that make me happy. I see new parents make sacrifices so that each one may take his/her unpaid family leave so the new baby won't go into day care so soon. I see my daughter and SIL (and also other parents) take lesser paying jobs so they can work closer to home and have more time to be with their children. I see parents give up what free time they have to coach children's sports and be scout leaders. I see one religious denomination in this country raise $3 1/2 million for tsunami relief in one month's time -- can you imagine the total raised by private groups in just this country alone.

Songbird, amazing how you came up with the perfect song to match Anna's words. That song sounds like a winner.

Ginger, good to see you posting here. It sounds like you have good news.

Every morning that I wake up and I am able to get out of bed, do the things I must do that day, and still be able to drive my car, I realize my cup is more than half full. I thank the Lord for this every morning before rising.
I suppose I am trying to say that each day I value my independence more and more because I am alone in life. My wife died several years ago and I have no living blood relatives to answer the call for help. However, I'm sure He watches over me and each day He gives me the ability to cope. With all this in mind, I think my cup runeth over.
Every morning that I wake up....

Bill H

I'm enjoying the posts since I found this discussion once again!

Ruth Ann

Ruth, we're glad you found it too. It was kind of tricky for a while. I've always had a link to SeniorNet/Books in my taskbar; now I've added one for Culture too, so I can quickly get to Latin and Curious Minds and PBS.

Barbara and Carolyn have brought up some interesting points about contemporary society and happiness, or rather the pursuit of it. British economist Richard Layard says that the best society is the happiest society. But he also says that "pursuit of happiness" should be interpreted to mean that public policy "should be judged by how it increases human happiness and reduces human misery." Put more simply, friendship and marriage and family make most people happy. Unemployment makes people unhappy. Therefore public policy should include policies that build stable families, communities, and workplaces. What do you think?

Bill, you are not alone in your graditude to a higher power for giving you the means to cope. In a recent Time Magazine survey 62% of those surveyed said that religious or spiritual life and worship was one of their major sources of happiness.

To see the results of the Time survey, click under the frowny cup, and then click "Next." How do your thoughts compare?

I make when I'm blue. I can be either and I can choose to be happy if I pay attention . the beauty around me us something that distracts me from my self. It's a decision to concentrate on trees and skies and breezes, all of which please me and distract me . . . and my friends make me happy. there are fewer and fewer of them these days. . . they move away and they disappear and die, but I'm happy to have had them at all. Their smiles and hugs and laughter are still part of fme. I'd rather have all or even some of that than the blues. . . . . . Claire

You may have covered this in your excellent discussion, and if so, I apologize, but did you all read that study which showed that those who ACT happy become happy?

If you force yourself (now I'm not talking about tragic circumstances, obviously, but just the way you look at life) to SMILE daily, you actually BECOME lighter in spirit? It's worth a try. It takes more muscles (as noted) to frown than smile, have you ever tried to smile for 30 minutes? hahahaaa

I think the best thing anybody can do is to help or do something for somebody else, some little thing, makes no difference, that's needed, even if it's a phone call to say thinking of you. You both feel better and things look brighter.

Welcome, Ginny and Winsum. You both make good points. I agree with you Winsum in that, under ordinary circumstances, we can make a definite decision to be happy. We can make lemonade, to repeat a frequently used cliche. But it works.

Ginny, one of the "happiness" gurus, Martin Seligman, agrees with you about doing nice things for others. He and another psychologist from the U. of Michigan have done studies on human virtues, such as generosity, and how they relate to happiness. "Cerebral virtues -- curiosity, love of learning, etc.," he says, are less strongly tied to happiness than interpersonal virtues like kindness, gratitude, and capacity to love."

As for ACTING happy, did you know that there are actual LAUGH CLUBS? 1800 of them in India alone, and another 700 around the world. Like a club in Bombay which meets at 6 am, folks just get together and laugh -- for 45 minutes straight. You, too, can join 10000 Danes on the first Sunday in May, and celebrate World Laughter Day. Try it. You might like it.

Again, there is so much sorrow and decimation in our world, both near and far. There is no way we can "enjoy" what we see and hear of the globes tragedies. But if we donate our funds, time, and our prayers we can smile and feel we are helping share our abundance with a needy world. Just to put a smile on a distressed child's face, to provide a need if only for a day or even a portion of a day is a contribution we can make. ..Rusty's Paw..

I was feeling so good, smiling chorteling and then you did this

there is so much sorrow and decimation in our world

. . . . and it all weent away. what a downer. . . . Claire

Many years ago I read a short and fictitious article that I will share with you here
"While walking in the woods, I happened upon a beast, which was sitting down and eating his own heart. I ask the beast" Why are you eating your heart. He replied: "Because it is bitter, and I like it because it is bitter."
Which is to say, some people enjoy selfpity.

Bill H

Now, Winsum, you must admit that you quoted Rusty out of context! When you read on, he turns it very positive and constructive, like a conservative always tries to be.

About five years ago, I was going to a pain management specialist for back pain. While waiting in his office, I read the following article that was pinned to the wall. I asked his assistant if I could have a copy. She handed me one of several she had previously made. I suppose there were others who asked for a copy of this…

ATTITUDES
" The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life.
Attitude, to me, is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, what other people think or say or do.
It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company, a church, a home.
The remarkable thing is that we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day.
We cannot change our past. We cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable.
The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude.
I am convinced that life is 10% of what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you.
We are in charge of our...
"ATTITUDES"
I placed the line breaks every so often to make the reading a bit easier.
Come to think of it, I will print this and tape it to my computer room wall.

Bill H

Bill: I like it! I would just add a few words to one paragraph:

"The remarkable thing is that we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day...will I be positive or negative, happy or sad, friendly or unfriendly?"

Happy Bill, A very good addition.

Bill H

And thanks Pedln for thinking of this very good subject..What I have liked best is what I see is the determination of the posters to be positive..to have to right attitude..

I have been convinced for years that if you look for trouble ( unhappiness) then you will be sure to find it and if you look around and see regardless of anything else the world is wonderful place to be. and thank God or whomever you believe in and enjoy what you have than you will be happy.

I dont have it anymore ,,well I dont have it where I used to have it ..I kept a list on my refrigerator door..on one side were people and things I was praying about and on the other a list of all the things I had to be thankful for, I never wanted to forget either.

In was interesting my children, their friends used to check my lists. And when some of them had concerns or worries they would find thier name on the list and I can still see that little smile that would appear when they found it there, It was sort of I am glad someone cares and is praying for me..and when their name would appear on the thankful list that was even better..

My children are all grown and while I do keep a prayer list and a gratitude list in my computer I think I will put it back on my refrigerator and keep it low so my grandchildren can see that I think of them and consider them the top of my gratitude list..

I know one thing I am going to put on that list,.I tell others this all the time and now I am going to tell all who come to my home I am thankful for all the people I have met or know through senior net. THANK YOU DEAR COMPUTER FRIENDS GOD BLESS YOU EVERYONE>.anna

The feeling is mutual, I'm sure. Hey, that refrigerator system of yours reminds me of the teacher who asked each of her grade school students to write something nice about each student in their class. Then, that night she put all of the compliments little Judy received on one sheet, all of Johnnie's on another sheet, etc. In the morning she handed each student their list of compliments. Some were so happy they cried. Some kept their lists until they died. She found this out when Johnie was killed in the service, and at his funeral his parents showed her the treasured list he had kept in his wallet.

Lesson: What great happiness compliments can bring to people!

Well I am very happy I came in to read the new posts tonite. Wisdom abounds in this discussion. I must comment that everyone says things I wanted to say so I will say "I second that" I am going to also print out Bills list. Faith

Rusty, welcome. I'm glad you're here and I think you're right that we don't need forced laughs. We can find enough real ones if we just look.

"We are in charge of our... ATTITUDES Will I be positive or negative, happy or sad, friendly or unfriendly"

You two Bills have said it right -- attitude is a big deal and we can control it. Even if we can't change anything else we're in charge of how we act.

Anna, I loved reading about your lists and hope you do put up new ones for your grandchildren to read. They will love them too, but, knowing you, I'm sure you have already shown them in many ways that you are grateful for them. In the Time Magazine survey when asked "What one thing in your life has brought you the greatest happiness?" Children and grandchildren headed the list with 35%. Next was family, then God and religion, spouse, marriage.

Likewise, major sources of happiness -- over 70% listed relationships with family and friends; also contributing to the lives of others.

Interesting what makes happiness for folks - had two phone calls today from past clients who have become friends - they both called to tell me their "GOOD NEWS"

- the one was ecstatic because her husband finally agreed to go into a Treatment Center to get off a prescribed drug that was aggravating his Bipolar Disorder and that she had arranged for a visit with a psychiatrist for her three kids on Monday. She was so relieved and happy.

- the second was from a single gal who is a well paid engineer in the high Tech industry - she was fired and she was ecstatic - seems she saw it coming and this was giving her a break plus the opportunity to find a job with a better company. Oh yes, the pain of going through the experience was there but overall she was happy.

- and me - I enjoyed my morning when I attended a seminar learning about Land Trusts and the Nature Conservancy but, an upset stomach sent me home early - but then this evening I had received a wonderful, chatty for a change, phone call from my son - so I was ecstatic.

Anna, what a lovely post. Until recently, however much I believe in prayer myself, I don't think I fully realized how much it meant to other people to know someone was keeping them in their prayers. I learned that from reading the responses from Mahlia's chaplain son, telling the Gratitude Journal 'Aunties/Uncles' how much their prayers meant to the soldiers. Your post carries the same message, and it was a pleasure to read it.

BILL H & HAPPY BILL: I always find prayer to be a great help in adjusting my attitude. How many times I have found burdens lifted, not by any change in my circumstances, but by the change in my attitude towards them. It has been astounding!

Babi

Barbara, the situations with your friends bring up some interesting points. Making a decision or deciding which path to take can be so frustrating and stressful. Doing something, deciding relieves much of that. And then come the hope that the new path, the new way will brin something good. I do hope that is what happens for your friend.

Your engineer friend sounds hopeful and happy -- getting the push she needed to change directions. I wish her the best.

Babi, I's so glad you brought up attitude again. What a difference it makes just to change the way you look at something.

Much has been said here about kindnesses to others, and how it makes both givers and receivers happy. Every month our local newspaper includes the high school paper in its distribution. This time the teenagers had a page devoted to kindnesses they had received. Such simple pleasures -- I wonder if the giver even knew about the happiness of the receiver --
"once this girl bought my lunch when I didn't have any money" grade9
"So and So helped me study for a really hard chem test" grade11, and I love this one
"the juniors let me sit at their lunch table once" grade 10.

It doesn't take much to make someone happy.Can you all think of some minor obscure kindness you have received recently?

To start -- I'm a VERY SLOW swimmer and recently joined a fitness center with a lap lane pool. Most of the time I'm pretty much ignored by younger swimmers who may wonder "who's that old lady taking up a lane?" But not too long ago, one of the masters (3000 yds in an hour) was in the lane next to me and she said, "You are one of the few seniors who really work on your swimming" and when I complained about my speed, "but your form is good." She probably doesn't even know how good she made me feel.

the right attitudee??? something about that word RIGHT bothers me. . . who is to say what is RIGHT. an attitude is an attitude and there is no moral distinction between a posative or a negative one. It depends upon thee subject I have a very poor attitude toward folks I can't trust . . . now is that the RIGHT attitude? moralistic judgements bother me. . . . Claire

PEDLN: Thanks for telling us about your experience in the pool. I will think about where I have had interactions recently that left me feeling better about myself.

Claire, I don't think anyone has tried to say what a RIGHT attitude is, only that we're in charge of how we want to feel about something. I agree with you -- I don't like moralistic judgements either or people I can't trust. But of course, everything has shades of gray -- there are folks who would never lie to me, but I can't trust them to be on time. And there are folks I call to remind them of things because I can't trust them to remember.

We'll be winding down in a day or two. I want to thank all of you who have shared your thoughts on happiness and optimism and attitudes. They've all been most worthwhile.

March 16 will bring a new Curious Minds. I don't know the topic, but I believe the discussion leader is Anna's daughter Boomer. Whatever the topic, it should be a good discussion, because the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

In the meantime, we are opening up the discussion of the book Not Even Wrong by Paul Collins to include general dialog about autism. It will start Tuesday, March 1. This is such a timely topic and has been so much in the media lately that we felt a general discussion was warrented. We will discuss the book, where Collins tells about the autism diagnosis of his young son while he interweaves a history of autism and early autists like Peter the Wild Boy. You might ask yourself if King George I was right to bring this wild creature out of the fields and into the palace. Was he happy?

by temple guardin called animals in translation hs been on the NYTimes best seller list and is pertenent as well as good reading. Temple in an interview said severral times that Catherine Johnson, her co-author, had captured her voice. She is autistic. and does sound a little different . . .bursts of speech in rrushes. but she makes a living designing systems which help people understand animals. . . .

P>S> I know about this through y daughter who lives next door to Catherine and tells me that their dogs served as models for some of the chapters,so Of course I have to read it. Claire

I think sometimes people are afraid to voice their unhappiness ( which is often valid) because they may be construed as being negative. There is a lot of pressure put upon people to conform to a pattern. For instance grieving should only take a certain period of time.

I often wonder if some suicides occurr because people are afraid to confess their deep unhappiness.

There is much to be happy about in the world but there is also much to cause unhappiness we must be careful that we allow others to express unhappiness and provide support for them to weather the storms. Often people are forced into hiding their most painful feelings because there is nobody who wishes to share their burden of sorrow. We must be careful that in our pursuit of happiness we do not covertly forbid true and valid emotions.

Carolyn

I've just lurked through this discussion, but had to give some major BRAVOs to Carolyn for her post about allowing people to be unhappy and giving them support to deal with it. You really made a superb point, and one that should be acknowledged more. It's like the current thinking that we can't just do something because it has to be done (like learning the multiplication tables, etc.). Everything has to be FUN. And everything isn't fun! But if you're not happy or having fun, then there must be something wrong with you. Many Thanks!

I agree only to a point. Releasing your problems occasionally to an understanding person can help, but it has been shown that acting happy can make you happy, and acting sad can make you sad. A person who always goes moping around with turned down mouth feeling sorry for themselves is not going to be as happy as one who might try to force a smile. Thinking that you are well can improve health and happiness, it's been shown. Even forced handwriting changes can alter a person's personality.

So yes, it helps to "unload" your problems occasionally, but it also helps to make an effort to be as happy as possible.

PEDLIN, I like your idea re. thinking about small things people have done that make others feel good. I'll contribute.

Just a few days ago, on my volunteer day at the library, one of the librarians spoke to me just before I left. All she said was:"You sure get a lot done.", but it did make me smile and put a bit more bounce into my step.

Babi

To people in other countries, the American obsession with happiness is very puzzling and amusing. Our bookstores have shelves of volumes on "How To Be Happy While Living In the World," while other cultures accept the fact that the world is not always a place where one can be happy. In a book by an Italian author, she comments on the way Americans are constantly smiling whether they feel like it or not. I think sometimes acting happy can make you feel happy, but sometimes it can make you feel even more miserable.

Carolyn and Mary, you make very valid points -- people should be able to feel whatever emotions they want, without being critizized for them or without having to live up to others' expectations of what they should be feeling. That, of course, demands empathy and compassion from the rest of us.

Babi, thanks for sharing. Sometimes that's all we need -- just a little extra bounce in our step.

Its true about people always smiling regardless. Had a laugh with the check out girl at the grocery store about the very same thing just the other day.

I suffer from chronic pain and because of this I take pains with my appearance so I don't look too drawn. People say to me Gosh you look good. However I may be feeling really bad. Appearances can be deceptive.

Carolyn

so I must be wandering arond with an idiot smile on my face without knowing it. anyhow I smile back consciously and feel light hearted with it. why not . . . a smile doesn't cost anything not even a big effort. . . . Claire (S)

Carolyn, sorry to hear about your back problems. Pain hurts, no matter what.

Claire, I'm with you on the smile -- "why not . . . a smile doesn't cost anything." Sometimes I think I don't smile enough, or am always too deadpan, and then I see someone smile and think, "What a difference it makes when someone smiles."

I've mentioned before, this Fitness place I've joined. They have gazillion attendants floating all over the place and they all smile at you and say good morning or how are you, etc. I know it's part of their job, but it does make a difference.

When I am at the supermarket and see elderly women shopping alone which is much more common than elderly men being alone I always smile and make a little small talk. You would be surprised what a good reception I always get and how their faces transform. Its a shame there are so many lonely people around and I hope by just these small gestures I can give someone a little bit of happiness in their otherwise lonely lives. If you have never tried this I suggest you do it. Its amazing how interesting some of these women are.

Carolyn, I've changed the location I purchase groceries for much the same reasons. Both the employees and the shoppers are so very helpful. I always leave with a smile.

Little happinesses come in unexpected places, don't they.

And, OH, how enjoyable they are.

Ruth Ann

I'm elderly at seventy seven. . . is that why people smile at me? Although it's been going on for years. when I used to wear my dark hair in a long pigtail on one side more than one person attempted to RING ME like a bell. .. much younger then and probably my smile invited familiarity. . . .Claire

A college student asked what my definition of "elderly" is? I told her it's 10 years older than I am whenever you ask me that question!

Very good point, Carolyn. I know that almost always refrain from showing unhappiness,anger,disappointment,sadness etc.

I think I'm a little guarded about "sharing" negative feelings because I find it very difficult to be around unhappy people. I start out with understanding and sympathy, but after a certain amount of time, I find myself growing impatient and sometimes even angry at the unhappy one's constant complaining, whining and moaning. I couldn't abide being like that.

I agree that we should allow others to express unhappiness and provide support for them to weather the storms" but I also think we must be careful that we don't encourage people to wallow in their own misery. -JudyS

winsum -- you don't HAVE to be elderly at 77! Of course, I'm younger and may sing a different tune when I'm 77, but I think age is more a state of mind. Sure, it's chronological, but how you react to it is more attitude. I know some "elderly" people at 55 and I know some "young-at-heart" people at 95!

Abe Lincoln (I think) "Most folks are just as happy as they decide to be"

Doug: Yes, that's a good one from ole Abe: "Most people are as happy as they make up their minds to be", or "Most people are as happy as they decide they want to be" (I've heard both versions), could be the title and summary of this entire forum!

If someone is desperately unhappy for a long period of time its time to go to the doctor. A humans brain chemistry when running properly does not naturally run to long term unhappiness.

I would say to those of you who are dealing with the bereaved do not expect them to be brimming with happiness two months after their bereavement. Thats not to be expected. I suggest those who do think this should get some books on grieving out of the library.

ah songbird at fifty five I was playing tennis and running and having a nice love affair, but at seventy seven this body isnt able to do any of that it's got arthritis,, heart trouble macular degeneration cateracts, gerd and frustration plenty of it. I've had to completely change my style. t'aint easy. . . .and did I mention fat and wrinkles. it's a case of face or fanny and neither makes up for those twenty two years of difference. enjoy your youth while you have it and try to stay in shape. . . . . claire

Thanks for the advice, Claire. There is no question that time does take its toll. I just wish I had taken care of myself 20 years ago!

Well, from what I understand, it's never too late to start, whether it be smiling, exercising, taking care of ourselves, etc. But sometimes we have to end, and now it's time to end this discussion.

Welcome to Doug -- thank you for the Abe Lincoln quote. And thank you again to everyone who helped make this such a good discussion. I'd like to leave you with a link to an article from my local paper today. It's written to school children who for the most part don't have a lot of material things, but they have a lot of heart. See what Editor Blackwell says is his recipe for happiness.

http://semissourian.rustcom.net/story/157591.html

I thought this list towards happiness was interesting" -- Life and relationships work better when the glass is half full. Specific steps to cultivate happiness.

Be grateful
Create a sense of gratitude for what you have, for what is working, for what is wonderful and sweet in your life. A morning or evening gratitude list, written each day, can do wonders for helping you feel grateful.
Take care of yourself
Identify the small things in life that make you feel good, and do one daily. A short walk, a few minutes of writing in your journal, a short meditation, watching the sunset. Whatever reminds you that you are a human being and not a human doing will improve your outlook on life.
Be creative
Creativity and self-expression generate happiness. Schedule some creative time each day, even if it's just a few minutes of writing, painting, sculpting, etc.
Move
Moving our bodies generates feel-good hormones called endorphins. Move a little every day to stay happy.
Get someone to take care of you
It feels good to be taken care of, even in small ways. Get a massage, a manicure, someone to carry your groceries, launder your clothes, or fix something for you.
Read inspirational material
It helps to be reminded of positive thoughts and positive attitudes. Get a small book of positive, inspirational thoughts and keep it by your desk. Read one or two thoughts each day.
Contribute
Stand up for something that matters to you. Contributing, making a difference feels good. It boosts your self-esteem, your gratitude and feeling of well being.
Get some time
This one is hard. But if you are determined, you can find some time every day to just be. Make sure you do this - it will make a big difference in your ability to be happy.
Be in nature
Nature rejuvenates and restores the human spirit. Whether your brand of nature is mountains or the ocean, give yourself the gift of visiting it frequently.

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.
	Our new topic will begin March 16th. See you then!