Curious Minds ~ 2003 February Export

First Kiss

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion.

Topic for May 11-24:

Personal Firsts

We Are All Famous Firsts!
Click and enjoy!

Remember your first day in School? First crush? First time you played "Spin the Bottle?" First time you Flew Solo? Kissed a Snake? Wrestled an Alligator? (for the gals) First time you wore makeup on the Q.T? First time you got caught at it?

What "firsts" in your life that might be memorable, humorous, or just plain fun to remember, that you would like to share with us? Nothing embarassing or intimate, least not TOO. We would love to hear all about them.

Join our discussion and tell all.

Your contributions are most welcome Discussion Leader: Tiger Tom

la balançoire (1876) huile sur toile
Pierre-Auguste Renoir
Musée d'Orsay, Paris, France.

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion.

THE VALENTINE
WHO GOT AWAY!

Click above for our Discussion Link

Were you a slave to custom on Valentine’s day when you were in grade school?
How do you celebrate Valentine’s day now? - - Special dinners, flowers delivered, cards mailed/e-mailed, Heart check-up, long distance phone call to a friend or family...
Did you ever give or receive a ‘mean’ Valentine?
Did anyone ever embarrass you by announcing that you had a secret crush on a ‘dreamy’ girl or boy?
Did any of your friends move away when you were young. Did you keep up with them after they moved?
Are you in touch with any of your schoolmates after all these years?
Are there lost chances in your life that you wish you could turn back time and handle them differently.

Your suggestions are welcome
Discussion Leader: Barbara

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I do remember those inexpensive bulk Valentine cards but I only remember them when I was a bit older - maybe in the 7th or 8th grade - I remember making Valentines with constructions paper and I remember by Grandmother showing us how to make lace paper by folding and cutting bits off the ends of the folds and then designs like baskets in the larger folded areas so that when it opened it was rather an intricate design. In early grade school I remember lace paper doilies pasted on red construction paper with hearts cut out and added or bits of ribbon tied into bows or if we were lucky we found a cupid or something to cut from a magazine.

Oh yes than the scrapes of fabric that we filled with cotton and some of our moms toilet water that we added to the cards. Oh and do y'll remember Sweat Heart soap - it was oval in shape and embossed along the edge with curly shapes and it smelled lovely. We either encased the soap in red net with red narrow ribbon tied in a bow at the end or we decorated the soap by piercing beads onto a straight pin and sticking them into the empty spot within the curly embossed area - oh that was a special gift worthy of making in secret for our mothers.

As a kid I do not remember much about flowers or chocolates but then there wasn't much money so everything was homemade. I do not even remember that we had muffins or cookies in school as my children had during various holidays.

Looking forward to hearing about your memories of Valentine's day...

I don't celebrate Valentine's Day now, but did when my husband was alive. However, we celebrated it a bit different than most people. We would write a poem to each other rather than send a card, and would buy a live plant from the nursery for each other as we were both keen gardeners. My daughter and her husband have continued that custom. To me, it offers more significance....and doesn't encourage obesity through eating a box of chockies, etc. Also, Valentine's Day is in summer here so cut flowers don't last more than a day or two. A pot with, say, blooming New Guinea Impatiens or other flowering plant that could be planted and nurtured with love was much more significant to us, and is to my daughter and husband too. BTW, we make all of our own cards, complete with a poem, for all occasions, daughter, son's fiance, etc....they got that from their Mum.

Bobbie

Barbara,

Valentines day in Grade School:

The most popular girl got the most cards and the most unpopular person got hardly any.

I understand that today Cards are discourages in Grade School because of that. I guess Schools these days want to spare the unpopular child the embarassment.

Lots of times the upopular child was unpopular because the child was "Different" perhaps brighter than the rest; Plainer than the rest; not as bright as the rest; thinner or more obese than the rest. Whatever, many times it was not the child's fault but a matter of genetics. Children can be very cruel when in Grade School.

Tiger Tom

Barbara,

BTW, Happy Groundhogs Day.

Good luck on your discussion. Timely topic.

Tiger Tom

We had Valentine partys in my pre seventh grade school class, and we solved the problem of unfairness in the following way. Each student was assigned a secret Valentine Buddy for whom he/she had to MAKE a valentine card and exchange it along with a small gift. The gift could either be made by the student or purchased for no more than twenty-five cents-after all this was during the great depression.

The Valentine party was held in the home room class and the goodies were made by the parents of the students. The home room teacher would pass out little hats and valentine hearts. The class room was decorated with all kinds of valentine cut outs pinned to the wall and pictures of valentine symbols had been drawn on the blackboard by several of the students. The student who MADE the most unique gift was awarded a prize. This was usually some inexpensive item the class room teacher gave. All in all it was a pretty good time with no one feeling like they had been left out.

Bill H

Bill H, you have the most interesting posts about your life! First, your grandmother's house and now, a very different kind of Valentine's Day party where fairness was the essence!

All that I remember is the frantic running around to get a Valentine on everyone's desk before the bell rang.

Now, we(husband and I) exchange really funny Valentines or the very sloppy sweet kind. It depends on our mood the day we stand in front of all those cards at Hallmark!

One far away Valentine's Day, I found a very funny card which I posted to my husband at work. He nearly fell over when he opened it all the way, as it had on it, a giant female gorilla, pursing her lips and offering him a kiss. He brought it home and I saved it! Sent it to him for almost ten years.

Ann what a riot - yes bringing fun into the day really takes all the angst out of if you are or not being remembered.

Bill H I can hardly believe that fairness was addressed way back then - amazing - you had a really forward looking teacher didn't you. Do you think that sense of fairness made into an issue when you were in the 7th grade made a difference in your adult attitude towards fairness?

Tiger Tom were you one of those popular kids? Or I bet you were one of the wise one who just sat back and observed what was happening. Kids can be cruel but I have often wondered if the same kids that are cruel are the ones who grow up to act or think cruel. We assume that as we mature we become more civilized and caring of our fellow man and yet there is an awful lot of cruelty among folks.

Bobbiecee how absolutely wonderful to exchange plants - what a wonderful unique idea - I love it - in fact I think I may borrow it if you do not mind. Up until now except for cards etc. to children and grandchildren I have not done much about the day either.

The other day I turned the big seven O - somehow it was the first time a birthday felt like a milestone - my thought is that I have the next 10 years to really do things that I have always wanted to do or that really make me feel good about my life because after that the chances of me having the physical health or energy is slimmer.

Well I have decided to change all that - the other night seeing on TV those children in Africa living on the streets and the young 12 year old boy who being interviewed at night spoke of having eaten the day before and explaining how the big boys take from the little kids and that when he grew up he was not going to be that cruel to little kids, then he finishes up by saying he misses his mom. (who died of AIDS)

Broke my heart and I wished I could send him a Valentine card along with some money to the orphanage that was featured in the show so they could have taken him but I realized how difficult and impossible that would be to make happen. But what I realized next, there are folks right here that could use some attention. And so I think I will take your plant idea Bobbiecee and bring a plant to a couple of the lesser funded nursing homes in this area, maybe one to the firehouse as well. I would honor teachers but on that day I am sure they are inundated with cards and gifts from their pupils.

I have a couple of long time friends that we have never exchanged greetings on Valentine’s day and I’m thinking why not.

Barbara - have enjoyed your comments. You make mention of teachers being inundated with cards and gifts. I think that the elementary teachers are, but often those in middle and high school are forgotten. A plate of cookies or a plant would be very welcome in the staff room. So often it is just the parents of the students that deal with the school. When I was with the school system it was always so nice to see just someone from the community recognize us. Maybe I should make some cookies!

Kathy

Oh, Ann, my life is just chuck full of interesing events some good and others, well, not so good.

Barbara, well, I'm not sure that teacher meant fairness to be an issue per sey. Perhaps she did now that you mention it, but I think she also placed those requirements on the students so that everybody would be involved and also for a class project,i.e. making the gifts and cards to bring out the artist in us)

However, I think fairness, other than, race or sex, was practiced more in that era than today. And, yes, I do have a strong sense of fair play although I believe it was family oriented.

Bill H

While I was emptying my pantry , throwing all the stuff the mice got into, washing every shelf and covering with contact , washing all the items in cans and glass jars, moping the floor, washing and putting everything into glass and plastic containers.. The nut curious minds left and here I am thinking of Valentines day ....As long as I can remember ..into Jr High we always celebrated Valentines day in school .. In fact in the 7th grade a dear young man I later dated gave me a heart shaped box of chocolates... He put the box on my seat to surprise me as I was handing out my cards. The real surprise I sat on it .!!!!!!!!! What an uproar...All of his buddies were waiting to see my response< which they didnt expect to be OW what is this ???when I sat on it and the teacher took a dim view of the laughter and explanation ( I was really embarrassed) It seems everyone got cards although in the younger classes we girls would get funny valentines from boys..they were like newspaper with caricatures ...And of course some of the girls gave the boys the same. Now the teacher gives out a list of every student and EVERYONE gets a card ..although it seems to take something away from the whole thing, I know it is kinder and nicer just commenting.

Long ago I told my husband and family I DO NOT WANT CHOCOLATES for Valentine or cut flowers if you are going to get me something make it a plant I can enjoy in the summer ...I hate to see flowers droop an die..unless they come from my own garden. HAppy Valentine day ..anna

Barbara, you certainly may borrow my idea...plants. I still have some of the live orchids that my husband gave me for Valentine's Days in the past, plus other plants in pots. Needless to say, I nurture them with love, and they provide memories of the wonderful times we had together. When the orchids bloom, my daughter says 'Dad's saying Hi to us.'

Bobbie

Hehehe Annafair - oh my - did you end up crushing all the candies - oh I bet he was mortified for you and yet disappointed you didn't see the box in all its glory before you sat on it - ah youth...

Bill and so your parents are given the credit for your admiration of fairness - interesting - do you have a story that shows us how you picked up on that trait?

How special Bobbie - to see a bloom as the voice of a dear one no longer with you. Sounds like your daughter shares in the memory of your husband - how precious.

Look I just have to tell y'all - I graduated from high school in 1951, a small Catholic High School. I married the following year and didn't attend collage till my oldest was 12 years old. We moved three times and over the years lost track of everyone except one friend, that all these years we make contact at Christmas. A few years ago she had a niece marry in Austin so I had a wonderful visit with Peggy and her husband who she was dating back when we were seniors in High School.

Well lo and behold - last year my sister told me our old High School had established an alumni newspaper and she mailed it to me. (my sister attended the same High School only 15 years after me) I was delighted and there was a photo that I thought was of our graduating class. They were trying to identify who was in the photo and I shared some of my thoughts along with an experience in school that has meant so much to me in my adult life. Well... the story was printed in the next issue and someone saw it and e-mailed one of my old classmates who had become a nun - she e-mailed me and here after 51 years we have been corresponding by both snail and e-mail.

We have become closer now than all those years ago - we remember one long conversation we had together outside of church one afternoon as we both had been in church praying - at the time she shared with me a nine hour novena that was a phenomenon in those years since novena's were nine days or nine weeks but none were nine hours with prayers for each hour. I still have that paper after all these years and used it when I was having a difficult time carrying my third baby.

Our lives have changed and I no longer see the Church as the only one true church and therefore, my prayer life is more eclectic - where as Winnie is still a strong church believer. But we do not have to convert each other and we are enjoying the connection after all these years.

I do remember we had a Valentine dance each year and I also remember when we were Juniors being so tired of hearing the same old records that I got a few of my friends and we visited all the classes during home room and asked if each student would donate 10¢ as a suprise for the seniors - as I recall there was enough for the seniors to purchase 8 new records - yes, remember records not CDs or tapes and not even 45s but records later called 78s.

Have any of you continued a friendship with school chums - tell us about it.

At that time I had reached my full height of 5' and only weighed about 85 pounds ...I didnt crush them because I remember eating them later. It was a surprise to find something on the seat and as I said I make a commotion ...He was a good friend until his death about 3 years ago. He and his wife became good friends of my husband and I and we kept in touch until both he and my husband passed away.

I have kept in touch with many of my childhood friends. Unfortunately our ranks are getting thinner and there are only a few that remain. One friend who lives outside of Atlanta I have known since we were 3 years old and we chat on the phone and via snail mail often. My matron of honor is still alive and lives near where we grew up. We too talk on the phone often. It has been some years since I have seen them but it seems just like yesterday when we talk.

When we had our last reunion I couldnt go but recieved a list of attendees and looked up several and talked with them. Some are disabled and dont go anywhere and others are still very active. But the closest ones whose friendship dated from the first grade have just about died out. I have many good memories of our youth and when we were all young marrieds.

Now I make Valentine cards for my grandchildren and some make some for me...not bad.. anna

Here is a Valentine Card link that tells us about Making Cards is a Tradition in America - Victorian Valentines

Very interesting site, Barbara. It is truly an old tradition.

Bobbie

"Bill and so your parents are given the credit for your admiration of fairness - interesting - do you have a story that shows us how you picked up on that trait? "

Not really Barbara. . I seen fairness practiced so often in family life and how unfairness hurt others that a sense of fairness just of grew on me. Although I must admit that what seems unfair to some will seem fair to others. I suppose it's ones point of view.

Bill H

Kathy at your suggestion I am adding the Teachers day room to my list - I'm thinking some blooming bulbs rather than a plant that would take some care - hmmm in fact come to think that may be the best idea for the fire station and the nursing home - pretty blooms that will last longer than cut flowers but do not take any care.

Bill it is hard to see someone getting hurt isn't it - and as a child I remember seeing hurtful behavior that others either ignored or did not realize or did not see - I never knew what to do since the kid that was hurt usually didn't want anyone to notice.

Hehehe I remember being all of 5 and half and scolding my Dad would you believe - my little sister and I walked the two blocks to meet him where he got off the bus coming home from work. On the way home he swatted my sister on the backside for walking in the tall grass and getting her shoes stained with grass - I just told him he shouldn't do that - she wasn't bad she was just little and didn't know any better. He was taken back but didn't answer and he didn't swat her again either. Golly here I was treating him as if I was the parent - can you believe...oh my.

Bill are you going to do anything special for Valentine's day this year, and how about you Bobbie - I know you said you hadn't been doing anything since your loved husband died but what about your neighbor or your daughter for that matter - what could you do...

I wish my grands lived closer - I am all excited this year about making some cards - I've a trove of ribbon and lace and paper and frilly fabric - I would love to have some company and spend an afternoon making cards - one of my grands would be such wonderful company - I just do not know about asking another child - somehow that seems like an effort I am not sure I want to get into - now if there was a rec center near by I would take my stuff and set up a childrens after school workshop but the only rec center I know of is clear across town. Because of evening traffic it would take over an hour to get back home. Maybe I will just put Puccini on and have some fun creating cards later this week.

My school years had class valentine parties with cupcakes in pink frosting and everyone had a valentine or else. You still knew who was in and who was out by the handmade boxes we made and judged which really negated the practice of having to give valentines to all.

My most memorable valentine's day was getting a plane ticket and a week at a beach resort, my then husband had won it in a radio drawing and it was truly enjoyed!

Nowadays its the custom to go out to restaurants that participate in the "Moonstruck Madness" theme. This is where you go sample flamboyant chocolate desserts at various restaurants that also feature for that one night, various artwork done by local artists. The desserts are judged by patrons and by a local panel of judges who visit each restaurant for the local heart association. There are many donations for heart research by all who participate.

You can judge a decadent dessert and purchase a piece of art at the same time. It is quite an event and we get dressed up to really savor the experience. Then we top the evening off with dancing or going to one of the local comedy clubs.

Barbara and Angelface, children can indeed be cruel to each other. In re Valentine's Day, my memories of it as a child were that all children, myself as well, would count the number of Valentine's we got and would judge our popularity or lack of same by the number we had received. Angelface, I totally approve of the cupcakes, etc, rather than the giving of Valentines, for that exact reason. I am pleased that children do not give valentine cards to each other at school here, so they don't have the same problem I and my classmates had. Here, children make valentine's for their parents only, a thanks for being Mum and Dad.

Barbara, I can feel your excitement about making valentines. It gives me a warm feeling...so needed in these worrying times.

Bobbie

Some years back, a local magazine published a short short story I did about Valentine's day. There was some reaction to it.

HAPPY VALENTINE’S DAY
by Lorrie Gorg

Valentine’s Day was approaching and our eleven–year old hearts beat in anticipation. At school we had been encouraged to exchange valentines, “chum to chum,” no sissy stuff like “sweetheart”, or” I love you “ or any other mush. I was delighted. It gave me a chance to show off my rhyming skills on my hand-made cards. Rhymes like “Roses are red, violets are blue, sugar is sweet, and so are you.”

I had twenty-one classmates and I liked them all. So I decided to make a valentine apiece, each with a simple poem, all cheerful, some of them downright flattering. The night before the class party I sat up past my bedtime cutting, pasting, and printing each laborious message.
On February 14 I dropped them all in the heart-shaped box our teacher had provided, and watched in anticipation as each name was called.

I was not a pretty child, as prettiness went in those days. I was a bit of a tomboy, and my parents often said I was “healthy-looking” with my freckled cheeks and high coloring. I’d been told I “was a lot of fun,” and “full of high spirits,” and I imagine that was true. My biggest drawback, I thought, was the fifteen pounds of excess weight I carried self- consciously.

Happily, each person collected his or her valentines when their names were called, and returned to their desks to open them. When my name was called and I came up to the box and saw the hugest card I’d ever seen, I was thrilled. It was bigger than anyone else’s, with elaborate lace and hearts on the front.

When I opened the card, there was no poem or friendly message, only some over-sized printing that read “HAPPY VALENTINE’S DAY, YOU BIG FAT PIG! GO FIND A HOG-PEN TO WALLOW IN!” Beneath that hurtful message was a large cutout of Porky the Pig. Of course there was no signature.

Cheeks flaming, I slapped the card shut and looked around to see if anyone had noticed. In the back of the room I saw a large group of snickering boys and girls watching to see what my reaction would be. Refusing to give them any satisfaction, I stumbled to my feet and made my way home, crying in humiliation all the way and hiding my face when I approached anyone. Luckily no one was home, and I could escape to my room, where I lay in misery for hours.

I never told my parents, only my sister, who was loyally indignant, but I have never forgotten the callous cruelty shown on that day so many years ago.

I hate Valentine’s Day.

Lorrie

Lorrie that is a heart wrenching story about the cruelty of our peers. And the secrecy surrounding that shame made it worse for you. We never know how hurt someone is until they tell us, but stories like this should be read to children so they will build some empathy for others. Faith

Bobbiecee stated that children can be cruel and I agree. Sometimes deliberately and sometimes just as an oversight. I was never a popular child with my schoolmates, usually disheveled or more than often completely unaware of it. To make things a little bit more uneven, many kids came from well to do families and dressed far better than I did. But in truth, it never really bothered me until one Valentines day when all the kids brought their little cute things for exchanging and I did too, only to learn that none were directed to me. I went home empty handed and of course it hurt. I never was much for Valentines after that until several years later I found a girl who loved to give as well as receive them. Just last week I got my instruction tho, no chocolates this year! Shucks.. Losalbern

I think that those types of stories were why we had to give each person in the class a valentine and if there was a birthday and supplies were purchased; it was for the entire class.

I was the tomboy with the perpetually skinned and blackened knees, but luckily my neighborhood was full of little boys. So it was the feminine arts that I was most conscious of in those grade school days. I actually remember trying to practice giggling in my room because a girl named Penny giggled a lot and was very popular in the coatroom. I never did learn how to giggle as my voice has always been low pitched. It was also a number of years before I learned that it wasn't the giggling that so enchanted my male chums, but the early development instead

Lorrie, I'm still aching from reading your story. I was never popular in school either. I was a tomboy like you, Angelface, and an additional disadvantage was that I was in the Gifted Child stream, so was called all sorts of nasty names, and shunned by the popular but not so smart kids. It was ghastly. I remember going home in tears, often, saying "I wish I was dumb.' I vowed that my children were never going to go through that. My daughter, Krysti, was also a gifted child, but fortunately, the places she went to school, the emphasis was on excelling, so she was looked up to rather than down on. Here, kids are placed in classes according to which stream they are going to be in, and in mixed grades, ie High 5th/low 6th, etc, so kids like Krysti are always challenged. Also, Krysti was also in the tertiary stream with others who were headed for Uni. I was so relieved that Krysti didn't have to go through the same things I went through. Krysti was a tomboy as well, although you'd never know it now. All kids in Australia wear school uniforms which, IMO, is a great equaliser. I also remember the pain of wanting the clothes the rich kids had, and Mum and Dad not being able to afford them. Dad cured that by taking me to the poorer areas of LA. However, I got a job when 16, so I could afford to buy my own Spaulding bucks, rather than the Leed's bucks I'd had before that.

Bobbie

Spaulding bucks - now there is a memory!

Kathy

Your age is showing, Kathy.<vbg> I assume you just HAD to have them as well....with the angora socks rolled down below the ankle. How about those horrible skirts with all the scratchy petticoats. And we thought we looked nice and fashionable?

Bobbie

White bucks -- that's all I wanted for Christmas when I was a junior in high school. And that little thing filled with chalk dust that you patted them with to make them look clean.

And those angora socks -- Bonnie Doones, we called them. Once I was shopping with friends and we ran into an "older" girl who was going to college. She was buying at least 5 or 6 pair of Bonnie Donnes at one time -- somethng unheard of. We just stood and gaped.

And those skirts and crinolines. Now my grandkids wear all that stuff for Halloween.

Yep, those were the days. That chalk bag was called a buck bag. I was in a Catholic school and the nuns would go into orbit when you would start banging that bag on your shoes and of course it got all over everything. I can just imagine. And those crazy starched and really starched petticoats. What were we thinking? And of course it was neat if you had a felt one with a poodle on it. Poodle? Where did that come from?

Kathy

A bit of nostalgia time. I actually broke my nose because I was bending down doing my shoes with the buck bag when the driver had to stop quickly. Red blood on white bucks...not good. How about those beehive hairdo's...my daughter has a picture of me taken on my 21st birthday with one of those hairdo's. Every time I go to her place, I see that picture...beside the one of me taken last year (boo hoo)<g>.

Bobbie

Poodle skirts etc with poodles yet, crinoline petticoats...etc but I suspect we will see them return. Everything seems to be recycled. I have a habit of keeping everything and find that as soon as I throw them out they become fashionable again. I have hats from 30 years ago I am now wearing again!

Valentines...well my father always kept me from getting my nose out of joint as he gave my mother and me corsages and candy for Valentine Day...My brothers just got to help us eat the candy..Now here it is nearing another V Day and I have reached the point where I dont care if anyone remembers me..I remember me and do something special for myself!!!!!!!!!anna who loves being a sassy senior!

Lorrie, the theme of that story was indeed cruel. I suppose the traumatic experience that child went through had a lasting effect all through her life. I read somewhere that the frontal brain lobes of children that age are not fully developed, and that probably explains some of their gross actions.

I suppose the teacher who supervised our class Valentine's Day party realized this and conducted the party in a fair way.

Bill H

I am proud to be here as an ambassador for the day of LOVE. Valentines Day is remembered in my family as my birthdate. 2/14/19**. (No presents expected)

I do remember one valentine from my youth (misspent). It was a handmade one and placed on my school desk. The rest of the valentines were were commercially made and given out at the local stores in bunches to be used by school kids. So they would read, "Make this day a special day, eat Wonderbread" etc. I will never forget my one home made card or Mary Lou Nelson who made the card just for me..Rusty's Paw..

Hehehe Poodle skirts and how about broom skirts and halters and the first two piece bathing suits - so very modest compared to today.

Lorrie your story - oh oh oh - I could feel the pain - ohhhh

Rusty hehehe 'the ambassador to love'...did you use the phrase as date bait...

I remember one class when I was in around the 5th or 6th grade when a Valentine box was established - I hated the idea because I just knew I would not get many cards or maybe none at all - I dutifully brought my 5&10 store cards, punched out of a cardboard page of cards that came in a booklet of pages of cards and remember being shocked when my name was called out that I received some. Not as many as some and none were special but it was a warming surprise to receive the cards.

It is strange how as children we put so much stock in if we were expectable or not based on receiving cards at Valentine's Day. It must have something to do with being socially excepted in a community larger than our own families.

I realized something after all these years - I was so sure I was not that acceptable that I buried that thought and decided to have fun 'making' - over the years come to think on it - my fun and feeling of satisfaction has always been making gifts or cards or special dinners or creative baked goods regardless the holiday. It feels stranage opening a gift and I never know what to say, as if receiving a gift is just not something that should happen - it takes my seeing the expected looks on my grandchildren's faces to realize how to them the gift they are giving me is special.

I have a friend who now ownes a beauty shop and was odd man out as a child - leave it to her - she had it figured out - she was a tom boy, had a dark complexion with hair that stuck out all over - not a child beauty - well when Valentine's came she stuffed the box with all these Valentine cards for herself so that her name was called out over and over or if names weren’t called she had a pile of cards on her desk - and heheheh in High School she had the florist send her a corsage to the school so that they had to call for her to come to the office over the PA system. We laugh every year as she remembers her stories.

Years ago when my daughter was earning extra money the summer before and first year of collage she worked at a small local card and gift shop that later became a Hallmark shop - we learned that Valentine's Day has the biggest sales for cards and small gifts, even larger than Christmas. And the day that beat it all, believe it or not, was Mother's day. Seems not everyone celebrates Christmas nor does everyone have a Valentine.

Valentine Traditions Around the World

Check out Scotland and France where the government had to interfere...

History and Symbols of Saint Valentine Day

BARBARA - About your enjoyment in making and giving: I learned long ago the saying about God loving a cheerful giver was designed primarily for the collection of offerings. What matters more to most hummans, is that we love cheerful receivers. We care most about, and enjoy most, those we do the most for, rather than the other way around.

This theory has a new line of reasoning, now that my valentine and I live in a double-wide with no basement, garage, or attic. Whenever somebody gives us something, we have no place to put it, but if we give something to somebody else, that becomes a favorable balance of trade.

Wow interesting turn Benjamin - need to tuck that one away to call on more often - thanks

Benjamin are you in a moble home park or out on some land...sounds like you had been living in a home with a basement and changed your house for a different kind of lifestyle - how is it working for you.

Bobbiecee the image of white Bucks so caught our attention and we went off into memory land that I never did ask what does tertiary stream mean - I am assuming Uni is simply short for University but I have no clue what tertiary stream is all about - I can guess it has something to do with the level of ability a child shows doing school work.

Barbara....I think you use the term 'college prep.' College has a different meaning here, two meanings. 1) a place where school leavers can return to to complete or improve their high school grades, and take tertiary prep courses prior to entry into Uni (University); 2) living accomodation and specific tertiary interest within a Uni. ie.. when I earned my GradDip (Graduate Diploma) in my field, plus other additional diplomas (Addictions, etc), plus my MA and Doctorate, I stayed in the one college when I went down for Res (Residential School) as I did all my advanced degrees in external studies. That college housed those taking Psychology. My college had a wonderful resource area with immediate access to psychological literature and studies from within Australia and throughout the world.

My daughter was in the tertiary stream because she intended to go to Uni....and did. My son didn't want to go to Uni, so he chose the Technical stream, although he had the intelligence to complete the tertiary stream. Interestingly enough, although my daughter is making very good money, my son, with no Uni, is making much more. So, here in Australia, there isn't the 'class' system division between blue and white collar workers that there appears to be in the US. Not only are tech tradesmen highly respected, the dinki-di Aussie, but they usually make as much money, and often, more than the tertiary educated. Interesting cultural difference.

Bobbie

OK Thanks for the explanation - what you say about salary and education counts here as well - it is according to the job - example my youngest son has only about 15 hours (1/2 year of Collage) and as a manager with Fed. Express makes more than twice the salary as Sally Gale who is a school teacher and the same money as my son-in-law who has his Doctorate and co-owns some computer stores in the South.

The difference isn't what they read because neither of them read but Gary has had some very interesting jobs in mining and with the LCRA (lower Colorado River Authority) He sits on several boards as a financial advisor.

Where as Paul has a smaller group of friends but that could be personality - Paul is more involved with his family of three boys but still does Rotary and Chamber, playing Racket Ball regularly with folks that run the Bank in town, another who has a string of restaurants and his neighbor, who not only has a large ranch outside of town but is in environmental studies at A&M - they are all collage educated and there is Paul right in with them.

Paul is very dyslexic before there was as much help as there is now and so studying by reading was next to impossible - but true to form they find these dyslexic kids have high intelligence.

I think a lot of it has to do with energy and desire to excel and continue to learn regardless your formal education. I think the ones that give up are often giving up because it seems easier and it is a characteristic of taking the easy road that keeps them from excelling in the work place.

Barbara...Greg (son) was dyslexic as well. I was fortunate that it was picked up very early, Grade 1, and Greg received mobs of help from the school, including individual sessions to help him to identify when he had words back to front, etc. We also had a very active SPELD (Special Learning Disabilities) group in Alice Springs in which I was active in and which offered considerable help for me and Greg. Greg's main problem as he got older was when he was having math tests and would transpose the answer. However, the teachers recognised that his answers were back to front, because the numbers were as well, so he was given credit, and able to laugh about it. Yes, dyslexic kids do have very high intelligence...After they developed IQ tests which took dyslexia into account, Greg scored in the genius range. His first test, the standard WISC, of course, showed him as low normal. I'm just fortunate that Greg received so much help, and was therefore able to do well in school...and developed the self-esteem to do extremely well in his career choice. He's a private contractor to Dept of Forestry...forest harvesting of pine plantations....an extremely choice contract, where he's essentially set for life now. Krysti is an Accountant Supervisor (middle management) at a large insurance company in Brisbane. Greg, obviously, works in the bush, and has a lovely property just out from a town 2 hours north of me.

Bobbie

Lorrie, I'm still thinking about your story and wondering if it has an untold, secret ending. Among the large number of children who received the beautiful, handmade valentines from you, could there have been one miserable, lonely child whose heart was mended as yours was broken?

Betty

Betty, what an interesting thought! I never did think about how anyone else would be feeling that day---you have a good point. They were pretty, at that.

Lorrie

BARBARA - I have lived in many different kinds of housing, but had retired to southern Colorado, where I bought an old adobe house with some extra lots, storage, etc. Then my valentine, Ms. E (formerly Winddancer,) emailed me after she had been reading my posts on various sites, then one thing led to another, I sold my place on contract and moved out here to northern California. I misunderstood her comment that she didn't have very much in the way of household goods (due to a fire several years back,) so bought a two bedroom double-wide in a senior park. I would be happier in a bigger place, but my arthritis plus this location made this a very wise decision for us. But we quickly learned we could have made good use of a large barn for extra storage.

If you are thinking about making such a change yourself, there is a SN site for manufactured housing or somesuch where you might find more opinions and ideas.

Bet that taught you to ask what the definition of "very much" is.

Howzat

Some how thinking of Valentine Day reminds me of Autograph books..I still have one from the 6th grade //I think .I havent looked at it lately but was remembering some of them...like Dont it get you mad Dont it get your goat When you're in the bathtub Without any soap////I think that is from one of my brothers. When you're old and gray And drinking tea Burn your lips and think of me.

I could go on but just wanted to mention this...anna

One of my most prized possessions is the autograph book belonging to my mother. I found it in her things after her death. Mother was so shy, I was surprised she could bring herself to offer the book to someone for their autograph. She could hardly bring herself to do anything that brought attention to herself. Lots of folks misunderstood my mother's shyness for being "aloof". Nothing could have been further from the truth. She craved being a "part" of something and the society of other humans. She just was too shy to do anything about it.

Howzat

Ah yes, autograph books - Thanks for the memories - we had them in the 8th grade - our school years were broken, 1 through 8 and then High School so that 8th grade was a significant year because after graduation we would all be going our seperate ways to one of several Catholic High Schools - I remember seeing my mother's autograph book. I've no idea what happened to it but I do remember the sayings to be so many more and much more original.

We received ours in late Spring a month or so before graduation. I remember in a group we often met on the corner under a big tree where there was a rail fense that the boys often sat on and we exchanged book after book, writing our little verses and signing our names. We even would come up to some of the sisters and ask them to write in our books as they walked from school to the convent past that corner. I think the sisters came by early expecting this is what we would do because if we stayed on that corner more than a half an hour we knew we were late for chores and we scattered quickly.

Now in 6th grade I remember many of buying a notebook - the kind that is black with white markings all over and a box in the middle of the hard cover that has a label area where you wrote your name and school and grade. The inside cover often had spelling and English tips and the back cover always had the mutiplication table and other math tips.

We folded the first page into thirds, leaving just a third of that page exposed and on that third of a page we wrote all these questions - what is your favorite color and what is your favorite movie and animal etc. etc. Soem even used a colorered pencil to write the questions. And then we asked all the kids in the class one by one to take a page that was exposed and fill out their answers with their name on top - after they filled out their page we would fold it back under the question page so that a new clean sheet of paper was exposed for the next one.

There were more pages in our notebooks that kids in our class so then we went to the next class up (ahum - never down) and that wasn't so bad, but it took a real self-assured brave kid to ask a student two classes above who were 8th graders. Someone in our class had a brother in the 8th grade so we asked him and his friends but they treated us like such little kids it was't fun. Ah what a difference two years made before the age of 16.

Two sites about Autograph books... Autograph Album / with a collection of versus

Memories of Autograph Books

Did you know February is...

American Heart Month
Black History Month
Bird Feeding month
Cherry Month -- Oh I remember the bakeries featuring cherry filled log cakes with white icing and an axe as decoration - and Black Forest cakes were also popular as were open cherry tarts
Dental Health Month
Friendship Month
Grapefruit Month - Wow that is a surprise
Finally wouldn't you know
Snack Food Month

February 10 is Umbrella Day - The 8th is Boy Scout Day and believe it or not the 9th is Toothache Day - (I guess with it being Snack Food Month)

Thomas Edison's Birthday is on the 11th and of course Lincoln's Birthday on the 12th and Washington's on the 22nd with a combination holiday on the 17th.

The artist Wood Grant's Birthday on the 13th. Pluto was discovered in 1930 on February 18 and hehehe the 18th is Quiet Day

Ansel Adams' Birthday on the 20th and Winslow Homer's is on the 24th along with Mexico's Flag Day

Renoir who painted the lovely peice in our heading - never noticed before the two couples in the very back chatting with each other under the trees - looks like the whole family is a part of this young man's courting - well Renoir'sBirthday on the 24th and Daumier's on the 26th along with the Birthday of Levi Strauss. The 27th is Polar Bear Day

The mention of autograph books naturally leads to forgotten things such as high school and college yearbooks and writing in them; making your own valentines, and bringing cupcakes to school for one's birthday. I was lucky beyond belief having a Valentine's Day birthday, and in having two friends who had birthdays on the 6th and 12th of Feb. We 3 had an 8th grade-birthday party never to be forgotten....our parents hired the local fraternal hall and we invited all of the 7th and 8th graders to the party. My sister played her record player and all her best records, and there were Cokes, cookies and Swamp Water!!! (A mix of all sodas over ice)...it sounds terrible now, but it was way cool then! In 1952-3 (?) it did not get much better than that! My favorite present that year was a copy of Seventeen Magazine from my favorite (and wisest) teacher. isak

Re February is the month of my birthday, my newest great grand daughters birthday, and assorted other grands and great grands. Also President Reagan's birthday. I had a calendar once that had a holiday marked on every day in Feb. except the 5th. My Mother said it was reserved for me but I think President Reagan got it instead, hahahah

In 1941 I was invited to the formal Valentine Day Ball at our high-school by a very nice classmate. As we walked in he began introducing me to his friends as I was brand new to this school. Leaning against the wall was an older boy in engineers pants and boots and a corduroy jacket. I thought "That is the man I will marry!" and as quick as the thought came and embarrassed me I swept it under the conscious mind. We were introduced and he pardoned himself for not dancing as he was not dressed for it and soon he left. I had a nice evening. Later I kept meeting this boy at different places, he was 19 and I was 14 and I was not allowed to date him when he asked.Summer came and we did date against my moms wishes. Still at the end of the year we were married, pregnant and living in Reno where he attended college. We had three children and a very good life for a long time then, children up and away and it was over. Funny thing is we didn't realize it at the time but it was Valentines day again the day we agreed to part. Life is serendipitous for sure. faith

Oh my Faith, as aching a love story as the famous love stories in History Interesting how most love stories in history ended in dispair or tragedy or in sadness.

A beautiful story, Faith, especially that first glimpse of your husband-to-be. My marriage, too, was good while it was good.

-----------------------------------------

Autograph books. If only I still had mine!!!! I still have the memory, though. It was summer time and my mother and the next-door-neighbor mother called together the small gang of my girlfriends to go.....where??.....they wouldn't tell us. "A surprise," they said. I think I was between 5th and 6th grades that summer. We were instructed to bring our autograph books.....a big thing at the time.

This was central Texas, late 50s. We drove across town to the section of expensive homes and pulled up to the curb of a non-descript house. "Now we wait," my mother said. Within minutes, a dark green U.S. Army car came down the street and pulled into the short driveway. That car and our car were the only two cars around. The Army car's doors opened and 3 or 4 men in army fatigue clothing got out, Elvis Presley among them. Mother and my girlfriend's mother were rushing us out of the car, waving their arms at the other car and yelling "helloooo!!" Elvis graciously signed all our autograph books, shook hands with our mothers and, as I remember, seemed unhurried and completely at ease.

We were walking back to our car when I turned to run back over to my idol, my obsession, Elvis Presley, and told him, "Bend down, I'm going to kiss you." He did and I kissed his cheek.

He was stationed at Fort Hood, TX, next door to Killeen, where we lived, and Mother had read that since he had just finished basic training, that he was allowed to live off post. This has been Mother's story to tell over the years, of how I had a mind of my own and not afraid to demand to kiss Elvis. I just wish I still had that autograph book!!

Betty

My husband always forgot my birthday and he forgot our real anniversary. But I always got a big box of chocolates in a big red heart with lots of lacy on Valentines day and romantic cards, the kind that made the kids giggle and my son at 7 would turn his head and pretend gag.Yeah We had a good romance and raised some wonderful kids.fp.

There seems to have been many tales that surround St. Valentine's Day including the concept that birds choice their mate on that day. Valentine History and Customs

Interesting how we place Romantic Love high on our scale of desirable life time experiences and yet the love that binds families together isn't really Romantic Love is it - I've been working with a young women just going through divorce and typical of what I hear there are all the benign issues that drove her crazy and she still hasn't caught on that it was all about control -

I look at the many couples that I have worked with since 1980 - buying a house puts their marriage to a test - so many of the marriages that they consider themselves in good working order, typically one dominates with control issues and it is usually the man. Those women who don't chaff and but who do not experience any abuse were usually quiet with few opinions - hmmm That is certainly the magic pill that traditionalists suggest makes for not only a happy family but also makes for the ultimate, Romantic Love.

In all these years I cannot think of one couple where they equally shared their thoughts and opinions - if the women is vocal in her opinions she is either obvious in her domination over him or on the verge of or just completed a divorce. This can be a strange holiday if we only listen and fantasies based on the advertisements as a day featuring Romantic Love. So far from what I have observed there isn't much room for equality in Romantic Love.

Well I am looking forward to the day this year - my oldest grandboy turned 14 on Monday the 10th - with the family sick I didn't drive over on this past Sunday and so I will drive over Friday - with the restaurants all crowded the plan is to have steaks on the grill and I will bring a lucious Valentine/Birthday cake - I am smiling in anticipation.

Barbara, your last posting about "contol and marriage" sounds like a good two week topic at this forum. Losalbern

Barbara, thank you for that interesting link. Those old customs answered a few questions. Maybe that is how my grade school teacher got her sense of fair play for Valentines Day. Good legend about the robin and sparrow. There is another legend about the robin as follows: When you see your first spring robin make a wish and it will be granted.

Bill H

Barbara from a senior lady my feelings seem to be that young women of today feel lucky to find a husband and put up with a lot of "controlling". My mother did me the best favor when she raised me to believe first, in myself and second I didnt NEED to have a husband to be happy of fulfilled. Her "There are worse things in life than never being married" Now she and my father had a very good relationship and from my view point it seemed equal. He worked, she took care of the house,although he did a lot of the maintenence...and helped with the children. She often told about him changing diapers etc and he was always there for us as children and adults. I was an only girl in a family of five boys and I never so much as ironed a handkerchief for them. We all learned to iron and to cook and to clean a house. It was part of being a family. I passed the same to my children. My daughters are married but are really independent. My sons can do their own laundry and cook and clean house. In thier marriages I see equality. I hope it lasts but all have been married now for from 25 years to ten. They have 6 children between them and have developed a similiar relationship that my brothers and I did and kept it that way. We are one big family now ...

Do I think I had an equal marriage and a romantic one? Yes due partly to the fact my husband was in the service and was away often on missions. He was a pilot and flew everywhere so I was alone a lot and always did what I felt was right. One thing though from the beginning he found I was very independent ..telling him the night before our wedding that I believed in until death do us part and if he felt that was not something he could live up to than we could just cancel the wedding.

We had over 40years together and his death was devastating. I always felt treated as an equal and we made decisions together. We both had strong personalities, which helped and we were both determined to stay together ...regardless. Once some asked if we ever had arguements//Yes in stereo and living color but in the end we always resolved it..sometimes he way and sometimes mine but most of the time it was a mutual.

I see freind who agonize over the fact thier husbands forget anniversaries and birthdays etc..I just put the dates on a large yearly calendar so everyone could see it. Mentioned at least a month in advance what day was coming up and if it was something where I wanted to be remembered I would say IF you are going to do something for that day I would like to go to a specific restaurant, and I would like to have this. It was always gentle not demanding and that way I was never dissapppointed ..I thought that was 1000 times better than being angry and upset because he and the children forgot. In fact it helped everyone to remember birthdays etc and all were great days not days of diasappointments....just a thought ...although I think I went on too long..just remembering what a special marriage I had ....Happy Valentines day to all and if you have no one to remember you >>>REMEMBER YOURSELF>>It is OKAY ...

Losalbern control is an interesting life style isn’t it - my thought is it is based in fear. But another view. I have become interested after all these years in geometry again. It was a favorite subject for me in High School and it really guided me from then on in how I presented my thoughts and arguments - well with this interest. I have been fascinated with Mandelbrot’s Fractal Geometry which focuses on broken, wrinkled, and uneven shapes.

Fractals is the patterns of Chaos and to further how Chaos is our basic world experience think how land is haphazardly created by volcanoes popping up and weather eroding and continental plates moving and creeks being damned by a wildlife changing the course of rivers. That in order to predict weather using variables as wind speeds, air pressures, humidity, temperature and sunspots won’t help increase the accuracy of long range weather forecasting. Since these are all dynamic systems the heat rising from the hood of a car or the wind from the wings of a mosquito in Madagascar is enough to change the behavior of weather.

All to say relationships are the stuff of Fractals. We have considered Chaos as disorder, anarchy, discord, disarray, jumble, disturbed, unsystematic, slovenly, tumultuous rather than the natural order of some things that can not be described and measured as the box, sphere and cone of Geometry. I just think some folks have a greater desire to hang on when things are in order, their order, and must make the world comply ethically and physically surround themselves with order, uniformity, routine, methodical behavior and that includes the behavior of people which they call normal behavior.

I guess it takes someone like Mandelbrot who experienced the concentration camps of Hitler in his youth where he and his uncle survived and all other family perished to see just how Chaotic life really is. I know my own life has been a series of the unexpected with life altering experiences.

I am beginning to accept that chaos is normal and to stop revisiting some of my life experiences as evidence that I needed more order, uniformity, routine in my life. Many will choose to control themselves and those around them believing order and predictability is more valuable.

Bill I love these old bird legends don’t you - there are so many around the Birth of Christ and now to learn about these legends around St. Valentine’s Day - we have seen our robins over two weeks ago now - so if you live north Spring is really on the way. You would never know it though - the end of last week it was cold and drizzly with a flurry of snow - we have not had a snowflake here since 1996!

Anna I am so pleased you had the opportunity to reminisce about your marriage and have these pages to do just that. Such lovely memories to have and hold this time of the year. Isn’t it lovely to see our children making their marriages work - I know my youngest has an especially good relationship. I think two things, Sally was a tom boy and enjoys the physical activities that having a family of all boys presents and the biggie Sally and Paul were dating since they were Freshman in High School with only a few other dates during those High School years and they knew each other since the 6th grade - they grew up together - established their values together - they are probably more alike in their thinking than a brother and sister. They seem to have a strong marriage.

ANNA...As I read your post, it was like deja vu. You were saying what I would have said if I was writing on the same topics. The similarities are striking...as are our beliefs, and the beliefs and values we transmitted to our children, as well as the similarities in our own marriages, the equality, the good memories since our husband's have died...and our current values.

Bobbie

It has been an interesting read this morning. I am one whose life has been forged through chaos and I now prefer the quiet and peace of order and methodology.

I am a strong and independent woman who has been married twice and had some other long term relationships. I have learned that I do better on my own, that marriage is a skill I haven't mastered and I do fine with friends rather then husbands.

My personal life has included many setbacks, family acrimony and deaths. It has taken a strong will to survive and find a measure of contentment in my own preferences and lifestyle. When I am reproached for not getting out more or for taking another class or finding a new electronic gadget; I simply remember that we are all equal but separate.

I have a friend who believes as I do and he and I enjoy our time together. But so many others seek to impose their lifestyle on me. Why don't we marry? Why do I seem to be more interested in things they are not and why won't I become more like them? Why do I get so caught up in things that they prefer to ignore or why do I neglect what they find important?

If we were all the same; what a sorry boring place our world would be!

and needed very much. My wife of 55 years wants me to adjourn to the living room and start a fire in the fireplace and I will do that shortly. Barbara, I have never experienced such a long and thoughtful response to such a simple posting I made earlier. WOW! I would recommend your viewing of the magazine "Discover", perhaps at a local library, that often deals with subject matter such as chaos and similar matters that interest a science bend such as yours. And to you other ladies who may have had less than desired relationships with men; hey, we are certainly not alike. Not that I ever was a paragon of virtue. I have had plenty of faults and some of them still persist. But our marriage has been one that was always on equal footing, with specialist roles and plenty of personal freedom. She does her own thing with my blessing. She took to motherhood like she invented it. A great Mom. She plays golf and so do I but seldom together. ( We have a little family joke that I introduced her to golf, sex and iced tea!) She has lead a protected life and admittedly loves it that way. She is basically a very good person, a fact that I am grateful for. Needless to say I love her a great deal. I think we have had a fantastic marriage but I still don't have a clue of what to get her for Valentines day. Except for the no chocolates edict. She wants to lose five pounds. Any ideas? Losalbern

You are a romantic Losalbern as was my husband. Once he brought me a box of chocolates and inside the wrapping was a picture of us his buddies had taken of us in a boat on the river in San Antonio and we were kissing and willows were hanging over us . It was a sweet picture in which we had been married about 4 years at that time. He had a photography shop blow it up and frame it. He wrote a little bit on his card about still feeling like that all these years later. That was romantic. But I still wanted the chocolates. faith

Things - things, they never really say much do they and yet it feels so empty not receiving things -

And so Faith you really like your chocolate - did you ever read that book by Joanne Harris or see the movie - I saw the movie and thought it was a delight - now that would be a great movie to rent for a Valentine night with some chocolate and a glass of champaigne - good champaigne like a Cliquot.

Now there is an idea for you Losalbern - get a video - regardless no chocolate this one is a delight - have a card that doesn't just tell her you love her but what she is that is special that you love - some kind of special drink - if you like champaigne or a good bottle of wine or even if you both prefer Beer than go for some imported special something - rather than the chocolate how about some strawberries or a bit of pate and crackers and of course the room must look festive with some flowers - not necessarily roses - in fact if you like to garden how about the earlier idea suggested where you stop at the nursery and pick up some potted plants or even some bulbs that have been forced and almost in bloom or just a mixed bouquet picked up at the grocery market.

Well I'm off to a my poetry group tonight - toodooles.

Angelface...Crises in life, when one works through them, and grows, are what make, IMO, a deep person. In contrast, most who have not faced crises and grown, are usually shallow.

Bobbie

Say Barbara! there has been some good thinking, good planning, good ideas about Valentine evening. Shouldn't be too hard to carry off, either. I received a bottle of champagne last month for my birthday, and a good dip or pate & some flowers! Actually she came home a couple days ago with three little tiny pots of bulbs ready to bloom, crocus and the like. So maybe a little bouquet of cut flowers. Maybe just a chocolate or two , Faith! And perhaps a little writeup.. And then a video movie. We just saw Fat Greek Wedding yesterday. That would have been perfect! (We are usually behind the curve when it comes to movies. ) We just played "Moonstruck" a couple of weeks ago. I will have to ponder that one for a while! Any more good ideas? Losalbern

LOSALBERN - Well, you could always tuck a nice gift certificate to her favorite shopping spot into a valentine. Not as romantic as some of the other suggestions, but always appreciated. The suprise is when she tells you what you got her.

All the suggestions were great...and I think if I can rent it I will get My Big Fat Greek Wedding...I am sure whatever you do will be fine with the missus....I never wanted candy but plants ...something that would last past Valentines day..even now I enjoy some of the plants he gave me and we put out together. That gives me tender memories which are treasures any time of the year.

Angel you live your life and pooh on anyone who tries to throw water on your ideas. I had several female relatives who had long time relationships and never married. They were successful in all areas of thier lives and they died with no regrets.

It is sunny and cold here but oh the sunshine is so welcome. Yesterday it was 50 degrees and I felt sping was just around the corner. I know winter hasnt left but it is February and each day moves us closer to spring...have a great day everyone..anna

ANGELFACE...'sometimes I feel as deep as the oceans...

A storm on the surface, but an inner calm in the depths.

Bobbie

Bobbie, Thank you. You are so good for all of us.

And especially to Barbara whose ideas I followed to fulfillment. While my Valentine is out grocery shopping, I did my errands, to wit: the champagne is chilling; found a nice bouquet of mixed cut flowers(Anne, we have so many potted plants now that one more would be a drudge), picked up two Hershey bars just for ambiance. At the deli, got a small container each of shrimp salad and tuna salad that should go well with Ritz crackers-- followed with ambrosia and strawberry parfait. For the movie, I found "Chocolat". For a guy that didn't have a clue clear up to yesterday, hey I think I've got a winner this year! Thanks loads to everyone! Losalbern

Angelface....As I believe you're aware, one of the greatest things about my career is/was that I have been able to see people who have been overwhelmed by crises overcome these crises...grow...in both directions...stature and strength and depth. I see these people, Phoenix Rising...as 'miracles.' I view you as one of those people. As I am mainly retired now, I only take on clients via word of mouth, in other words, highly motivated people. Therefore, I am able to see many little miracles, many cases of Phoenix Rising. It is so rewarding and moving.

Bobbie

losalbern I am smiling at what sounds like excitment for you of having put something different together - hope you have a cozy lovely evening - now don't forget to tell her not just that you love her but what is special about her that you love...

Is the sun just rising where you are Bobbie - have a great day - it is summer there isn't it - how wonderful - I really like summer don't you but it would seem strange to have Valentine's Day in summer - it was always the holiday that brought color and fun to mid-winter.

Anna - Carol - Faith - Angleface - Bill - who else - have a great day...

Had planned on running over to Collage Station to be with son and grandboys but we are expecting a horrible winter sleet and hail storm tonight and I must come back tonight since I've appointments tomorrow so the better part of wisdom came into play - in good weather, and I do have a heavy foot, the trip takes two hours - in high winds with sleet and hail no telling - I just called my son to cancel - Turns out Sally Gale has been home for two days with the flu and Valentine's is to Fed Ex (he is the manager of the station) like Christmas overnight, so he is pooped and he admitted they wouldn't have been that much company - and so to surprise all the boys I got on the internet - for a change I sent e-mail cards with a gift cirtificate from Amazon.com to all 5 grandboys - the three in Collage Station and the two in Saluda. Now they can all have fun shopping tonight learning how to navigate amazon.com with their little gift.

Well I'm off with my plants to the nursing home and the fire station before this storm hits. I think I will treat myself to a $12 back massage at Whole Foods on my way Home and then curl up with the latest Agatha Raison Mystery that arrived the other day - Agatha Raison and the Love from Hell I am serious that is the name of it...

BARBARA...Yes, it is morning...almost 8 am...The sun came up at 5.30 am this morning. I took my dog for a walk in the bush at 5.45, after sitting in my back yard with my cuppa, watching the sunrise. Our summer was quite cool (for us) while in the grip of the big dry. However, the El Nino appears to be leaving us, and the humidity and heat is returning...thus the early walk. I have never been so glad to have a return of humidity which signals a return of our normal summer pattern...afternoon thunderstorms. If you have difficulty with Valentine's Day in summer, you'd have a great deal of trouble with Christmas in summer, eh? I found it difficult the first two years after I migrated here. I soon learned that a barbeque was best for a summertime Christmas. A summer Valentine's Day has never bothered me. When my husband was alive, it was always a day when we could go to either the ocean, a lake or waterhole, or out bush, to hold hands and thrill over the beauty of nature...aesthetic intimacy. BTW, Valentine's Day was yesterday, down under. Happy Valentine's Day to the northern hemishphere today.

Bobbie

Well actually no Christmas on the patio are my favorite Christmas' - we have a warm Christmas day about as often as a cold one where as February is our rainy month - as other parts of the country get spring rain in April we get it in February - although the redbud and forsythia and other spring blossoms are a riot of color amid the dreary days with the Robins and Blue Jays hopping around the front lawns -

Christmas can be cold but our wee bit of winter usually starts with some rain in November than blue pretty skies in the high 60s and low 70s in December - than between Christmas and New Year we usually get a blue Norther that lasts for 3 days plummeting the temps into the 30s - we then get these Northers off and on all through January and early February - from mid February on, unless it is a freak storm, it is Spring with temps climbing higher and higher to the 'Long Hot Summer' starting in early May with temps in the 100s or upper 90s and they stay that way till at least the end of September dipping into the 90s and 80s in October.

We are not as warm as South Texas or Florida and we do not cool off at night as they do in Southern California but I actually like the heat - the hotter it is the less humidity - to me the 90s are a horror as I drip and drip and drip.

BARB...Our Christmas temp is in the 30's as well..Centigrade. Temps on Christmas Day range from 86-100ºF. Christmas meal is either cold turkey and ham (or barbequed meat and seafood), many salads, entrees of whole prawns (need to be unshelled), fresh fruits (many tropical), sweets are Christmas pudding and Pavlova. Activities: swimming in pools, game of back yard cricket, or spending Christmas Day at the beach. Clothes: minimum possible.<G> Down under, 6 White Boomers (kangaroos) take Father Christmas on his Australian run.

Bobbie

Bobbie since you are so far south are you temperate to hot even during your winter?

Barbara, We love the Agatha Raisin books, too. Thanks for letting us know there is a new one out! I'm reading an older Hamish MacBeth book now (the other M.C.Beaton series) and have just finished a 2001 Hamish Christmas story. What delightful tales she tells!

We, in Brisbane, are only 500 kms south of the Tropic of Capricorn. Same distance south of the Tropic that Florida is north. Winter here is temperate...normal winter temp varies between 20-25ºC (68-77ºF). We usually have a week or so of what we call freezing weather. That's when the temperature dips to a high of 16-18ºC (60-64ºF). We rug up in layers of clothing those days. It is, of course, lower at night, but never gets down to 0ºC (32º). Normal low is 8-12º(46-52ºF), but starts warming up shortly after the sun comes up. North and far north Queensland remains hot during the summer...maximum of 4-5 degrees difference between summer and winter. It gets a lot colder in our southern cities...Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide. Too cold for me.<G> Sydney is 1200 kms south of Brisbane, Melbourne another 500 kms southwest.

Bobbie

You know I am almost uncertain sharing this but hay, it is part of my life and my life matters as much as any - The Valentine That Got Away - sort of finds my cry button when I pause -

Back in first grade my mother was pregnant and in those days a women pregnant could not be seen in public and so it was my after school task to shop for the daily needs - every day it was down to Vincintie's for a quart of milk, two potatoes, a half loaf of rye bread, a half pound of liverwurst to be fried for my father's breakfast and for our lunch sandwiches. Usually some other not everyday item was on this verbal list that I would often forget the odd item.

My mother would be beside herself as she couldn't understand how after speaking about the girl with the umbrella and giving me an umbrella to carry I could forget the salt that had a little girl with an umbrella on the label - on and on with her various associations - I would not be able to remember the entire list - Mom could not write it out since I was in first grade and my reading ability was very limited and Mrs. Vincinti spoke Italian with no English and Mom spoke German with little English. Well walking on the way home from school Ralph taught me how to remember things on my fingers and by assigning an item to each finger so that according to how many fingers were needed that was how many items I needed to bring home. We became great friends and by third grade we had a crush on each other.

The news of our crush got out and he was teased and met me under the neighbor's front stairs to talk it over how he was not going to walk home with me anymore - a week later my friend Chickie came to the back screen door saying Ralph needed to see me under the stairs. I was sure he would be angry again but I went.

Now you must understand, Ralph lived on the next street in a one room basement apartment with his mother since his father had run off years before. This was during a time when there were no social services and so I am not sure what they used for money, maybe the church. The large room had one single bed that they both slept in - one sort of comfortable chair and one table with a wooden kitchen chair at the table and the sink and stove area. No ice box. That was it...I remember he saying after I asked, that they only needed one chair at the table since only one of them ate at a time.

He lived two houses down from my Aunt and Uncle with a very large field behind his house where most of the kids in the area played and the boys had a baseball field that only took up one small area of this field. Next to the field was the house of Chickie's many Italian cousins with her house next to it and across from ours. We and most of the neighbors all spoke German.

Well when I met Ralph under the stairs, that was a closed in area with a square 3X3 cut out, that we scooted through he was upset - he needed my help - his mother was hanging in their kitchen area and he didn't want anyone to know since he knew he would be taken to an orphanage. Well we told Chickie and she told her cousins since we needed their help. We kids went over and cut her down. Chickies older cousin stepped up on the sink and reached over with a sharp kitchen knife to cut the rope after we had pushed the chair under where she was going to fall. I remember being so surprised there was newspaper to clean up her mess before we could move the chair since we could not afford a newspaper and my Father had a job. We put her in the chair and covered her with a sheet. Each day I told mom I was hungrier and needed two sandwiches - in the evening he sat at the outdoor table under the grape arbor to eat with Chickie's cousins aunts uncles grands - there were so many no one knew who was or not at the table and we kids often slipped in and ate with them. He went home each night and slept with his dead mother in the chair - got up, dressed and went to school.

This went on for a week and it was Saturday again. All the boys were playing baseball and all the girls and little kids were out jumping rope or what ever. A neighbor went to investigate and let out a screem not to be believed - every kid stopped and stood silent and so still, we all knew - till finally Ralph slowly walked off 2nd base toward his house.

We kids and most of the neighbors stood silently outside the front of that house. Most of the Women in their black dresses with hair and aprons blowing in the wind as the police had come and taken Ralph away. His head was down as he walked up the path with police behind him. We never got to say goodby. He sort of glanced at me with no expression as he went in the back seat of the car. The police quickly got him in the car and he didn't turn to look out the back window. Never knew what happened to him but I guess he went to an orphanage. Always wished we could have at least said goodby. And the adults never talked to us kids nor did we share with them what we did so there was no way to learn where he went.

{{{{{Barbara,}}}}}} what a horrifying, heart wrenching story, and I bet you remember Ralph's last name, have you tried putting it in google? Wouldn't it be some kind of valentine if you could find him again? (He's probably ruling the world and we don't know it) I would like to know where Ralph is, and what happened to him; it might be some kind of reunion! Stranger things have happened, is everybody who was related to him gone from your own neighborhood?

ginny

No I don't remember his last name I remember in second grade he was left back and where he was a grade older when I was in first grade we were in the same class second and third grade - I need to look among my old things and see - I think I may have a class photo or something - I was just always a mixture of tearfilled sadness and anger that the police led him away and didn't make sure he got to say goodby to us - we were really close friends, even if he could have only said goodby to all of us.

Oh Barbara What a sad story. I hope you find out what happen to him and let us know.

Children can have some terrifying secrets, and adults can be pretty detatched from what children are doing thinking and hiding. Barbara that is the basis for a really good story and maybe you should write it.

Well this is my last chance this year so here goes
Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
I love Senior Net
And Valentines Too

I'm sure there would have been something about this in the newspaper. You can't have a woman dead for a week, sitting in a kitchen chair, her child going to school each day as if nothing is wrong without something about it appearing in the paper. There's where you will find the last name.

Howzat

Dearest I am now 70 - this happened over 60 years ago during the spring when I was in the third grade - like the story in the heading - some things happen that are not resolved - at this stage in my life it would be more valuable for me to learn what Civil War Cemetery my great grandfather is buried since he was paid to fight for someone else we do not even know what name to look for or whatever happened to the parents of my grandfather - my mother's father - who because they had no more money or food asked for help and before the turn of the century if you asked for help, your children were automatically taken away. He and his brother grew up in an orphanage and hopped the wall one night when he was 14. Met my grandmother's brothers who took him home - his older brother hopped the rails and they lost each other as well.

Yes, it was an unusual childhood happening when I look at it in light of my own children's and grandchildren's childhood. The experience has many sides to it. We kids felt in power - we were taking care of our own for as long as it lasted - yes, we were kids therefore, we had not realized it was all going to come to the end he wanted to put off - but think of it - we pulled off what other kids today can only pull off by hiding the fact that they are drinking or drugging or some other mischief.

Much of what we wanted could not be and the fact he did not get to say goodby was all part of none of us getting what we dreamed should have been 'right.' To all of us 'right' was getting what our emotions wanted - Ralph wanted to stay there - always, we wanted to help Ralph achieve that and tried to take care of all the contingencies we could think of to allow that to happen, I wanted to say goodby and let him know how much I wish I could have made what he wanted happen.

When the time came, Ralph was probably scared and just wanted to get on with it without feeling and to say goodby meant he may have broken down and cried showing he was scared and feeling his fear and acknowledging the loneliness that a goodby would bring.

Looking at this through an adult eye, I am sure the police did not want some mass prolonged teary goodby - after all mothers, especially Italian mothers, would, given the chance, easily wail calling on the Saints and the ancient gods with hysterical weeping. Also, all the adults were probably in shock themselves - very often when you are faced with something so beyond your imagination you become angry - so the police could have been angry with Ralph for hiding this and yet he was just a little kid (he was small for his age).

The women probably did not want to even ponder what our role in it was - their feelings were probably confused and they were probably feeling quilt since they were not that friendly with his mother.

When you are afraid you could be in someone’s shoes you put distance between what you are afraid of and so the two of them were a source of fear and tension for the women in the area where we were still remembering first hand the depression. Remember families didn't have backups then if something happened to the bread winner. Their backup was the same 'we will take care of this and each other' that we kids called upon when we were helping Ralph.

We can't fix what happened so long ago and even if I ever found Ralph - it wouldn't change anything - he had his trials to deal with in his life as we all have our trials that affect our lives.

almost want to type 'harumpf' barbara- in response to your lead questions, but then again i applaud the discussion leaders who take the time to pose questions to keep us focused...

so to reveal valentine secrets- my 'best' valentine was killed in viet nam- though his runner up gave me nice chocolates that same year- and recently clearing out in my cellar- nope not a basement- a cellar- i found a valentine card from my 'grandma katie' addressed to me at age one- i guess now an antique.

but the wonderful news is that my younger son and his wife certainly keep the energy of this day alive and each year they seem to plan some wonderful special valentine for each other- sounds silly, but since i am the mother of 'the son' makes me sorta proud....

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion.

The Curious Mind topic for the next two weeks will be about fictional detectives of long ago.

Topic Source: Previous Fictional Detectives as Masters

Click on the link and let's talk it over.

Lord Peter Wimsey	Nick & Nora Charles	Sherlock Holmes	Miss Marple

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Bill H

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I enjoyed all the posts for Valentines and I thank you for them.

Wow slueths it is - - -

Valentine's was interesting and Lorrie your story was so poigent – and Yili Lin we forget - you brought our memory around to how war has permently left holes in our hearts -

Sherlock Holmes considered my many to be a classic - my favorite is the cozy crime stories of Britian and Margerat Rutherford was in my estimation the best actress depicting the Agatha Christie Miss Marple.

Hello, welcome to the discussion. I'm back on board the trolley for the next two weeks. Barbara, you had a great Valentine discussion. I'm sure everyone who joined in enjoyed all the good posts. It was so seasonal appropriate.
I happened upon the page the link in the heading takes us to while surfing the web. Reading the page gave me idea for this Curious Minds topic. I thought how nice it would be to discuss the old time detectives such as the ones you see in the heading and, of course, others as well. Who of us can forget these super sleuths of yesterday? As Jacky Gleason would say, "they were the greatest."
As a teen, I would visit the local bookstore a couple of times a week to see if new stories of these sleuths appeared on the shelf of the small bookstore not far from my home. There weren't any super bookshops then, no comfortable chairs to sink into while you skimmed through the books. Paper backs sold for twenty-five cents. Just think a quarter of a dollar would whisk us away into there fantasy world where we could join the sleuths in solving the case with the clues the author put forth!
As you can see, the Curious Minds trolley in the heading is warming up and is just about ready to take us on our journey to old time detective lore times. So climb aboard, chose your seat, get to know the person sitting in the seat beside you and lets exchange stories about these old time super sleuths, Maybe you will tell us about your favorite old time dectective. I hope so.
I thank the lady techs for assisting me with the heading, if you find anything wrong with it don't blame the techs I had a hand in making it also. Ladies I hope I didn't make too much of a pest of myself with the heading.

Pat W built the trolley we are going to ride in so let's give her a round of applause. Oh, by the way, the trolley ride is free.

Bill H

Ok Bill I'll be around for this one though it has been at least 40 years since I went through my "Detective Story" phase. What I'm trying to say is that my posts are from memory not from recent reading and mistakes might be made.

I suppose Sir Arthur Conan Doyle began it all with his creation of Sherlock Holmes. This was certainly true for me as I began reading these stories after I picked up a copy of an anthology of his stories off a "bargain" table in a local bookstore. This was about 1960. When I finished all the stories, including the four long novelettes (like "The Hounds of Baskerville"), I went on to other authors such G.K. Chesterton's, "Father Brown series and Dorothy L. Sayers, "Lord Peter Whimsey." Also there was Agatha Christi and Ellery Queen, and a curious series that would not be politically acceptable today about a caricatured black detective named Florian Slappy by Roy Octavius Cohen. (Click Here or do your own Google search on the string, "Roy Octavius Cohen").

There were other authors who probably will be remembered for future posts but for now I will conclude with some comments on "Sherlock Holmes, the series that really started it all. I suppose that Sir Arthur as a the creator of the Detective Story had it easy in as much as most of his plots are rather weak and his logic leading to the conclusion is often far from perfect. As an example one of the stories involved a murder in a Turkish bath where the solution of the case involved the finding of the knife that was the weapon used in the killing. All the suspects were those in the bath at the time. None had left the scene and no murder weapon was to be had to the frustration of Inspector Lestrade (pronounce by me less trade, not lastraud as in the movies). But to Holmes it was obvious that since the victim was stabbed to death the murder weapon must have been an icicle that immediately melted after the event occurred. Apparently the physical unsuitability of ice as a substitute for a steel blade did not occur to 19th century readers.

On the other hand I have found at least one of Sherlock's basic rules of deduction useful in explanation of one of the perplexities of modern life. It is the often-relied upon Holmes axiom that when looking for a lost object, after looking everywhere and there remains only one last place where it might be, It will be found at that place. Finally I will conclude with an all time favorite 1960's "Playboy" cartoon that showed Holmes and Watson waiting at the ruined gate of the English Country House crime scene. The wrought Iron Gate and its stone pillars were a mass of twisted iron and stone rubble. Standing before the pile Holmes is heard to say, "Perhaps, Watson, this time, we had best wait for Inspector Lestrade."

These detectives are unforgettable. I adored Nick and Nora Charles in the Thin Man movies. There have been other couples detectives but none so intriquing as these. I even loved their little dog but cant remember his name for the life of me. I some time ago I watched little tv and when I did I was watching pbs Mystery hour . They had a lot of British mystery series. There were a young couple that would get invited to the country, solve a muder and come home. They were in the "Thirties" so I thought they were a mimic of the Charles' and now I cant remember the name of that series or the couple. They were good.

My very favorite detective however is still Nero Wolfe working in his orchids and bossing Charlie around. Many years spent reading at least one detective novel a week. Usually the last thing I did before bed was read my current novel for awhile. Faith

Hi, Harold, I'm happy you are going to join in. Thank you for that great post and thanks for jogging miy mind about about Ellery Queen and Father Brown. There were just so many of them. How lucky we were to have them and their authors.When I was in service I remember carrying an Ellery Queen mystery in my fatigue uniform pocket and whenever I got a chance out it would come for a little bit of reading. Most of my recollection about the old timers are from memory also so maybe I'll make mistakes too

. I agree Sir Arthur began it all with Sherlock Holmes.(wonder how Doyle come by the name of Sherlock). My interest in this detective began with the Sunday evening radio program with Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce. I have two complete works by Doyle but the one I like best is The Illustrated Sherlock Holmes Treasury. The illustrations alone are worth the purchase price of the book This is one book I don't believe I'll part with.

Faith, William Powell and Myrna Loye... I believe they were the most debonaire couple of Silver Screen lore. Myrna Loye was so sophisticated and beautiful. I just sat in the theater and watched her and forgot all about Bill Powell

I saw that mystery series you are referring to and I can't remember the name either. Now I'm going to have to do a google search because I won't rest till I remember the title. Didn't you just love the make up the women wore in that series )

Bill H

When I think of Dorthy L Sayers, I remember most The Lord Peter Wimsey series especially the "Nine Taylors." Sayers held my interest in this novel from the beginning. She painted a picture of the wild north England country side in such a fashion it set the tone through out the story. Those of you who read this book know that the 'Nine Taylor" were huge church bells named, I think, after the apostles. Anybody caught in the bell tower while these bells were peeling would suffer a horrible death. Isn't it odd how a book can stay with one for so many years. Have any of you experienced this.

I watched the Lord Peter Wimsey series on PBS some time ago and enjoyed the stories although I feel the role of Wimsey was miscast by the actor who played the role.

Bill H

Old tyme detectives--

Most are timeless. Roderick Allyn and all of the British guys by Sayers, Marsh, Christie, Tey, et al. Then there are Gideon Fell and the other one by John Dickson Carr who was actually from Harrisburg PA, the son of a senator or congressman but could create an atmosphere you could cut with a knife. Wrote locked-room stories, as well as some supernatural things (try The Burning Court).

Bill H,

I have read that Poe started the Detective Novel with his "Murder in the Rue Morgue"

Asta was the name of the Dog in the Thin Man series.

Nero Wolfe bossed around Archie, not Charlie.

Sorry to be so Pickey.

Tiger Tom

I think the “Thin Man” began as a radio show. I also remember it as a later TV series. Was it in this one where Nick and Nora sat around in their Manhattan apartment planning their case strategies while Nick chugalugged water glass size shots of presumably 100 proof scotch whiskey? He was not exactly the role model type by present day standards.

There was another very popular private eye type; who was it whose paperback novels were at every checkout counter? Was it Mickey Spillain and his mike Hammer Novels (Click Here)? I don’t ever remember reading one although the novels had a reputation as examples of skillful but really quite innocent risqué prose writing. I see from the Link included above that Mike Hammer character did show up in a long running TV series and also in movies. I must have had better things to do as I have no recollection of ever haveing seen these TV shows or movies.

FaithR:

Could the couple you were thinking about on Mystery Theatre be Tommy and Tuppence Beresford? They were a detective couple originated by Agatha Christe and appeared in several of her mysteries.

Lorrie

Lorrie I belive that is it Tommy and Tupence and I did not know it was Clark who wrote them. I love Mary Higgans Clark novels and have read many. It is peculiar but I cant remember even on or the title and that is not unusual for me regarding mystery or detective novels. I seem to to have a special way of going into the zone while reading them and when I come out I have amnesia...hahahah I can remember the characters though. In these Tommy and Tuppence episodes I loved the open car they drove, the twenties or thirties clothes they wore and of course the makeup was great though somewhat to much white powder!!! They had the same smart repartee as Nick and NOra . Yes the dog was Asta and he was a Terrier with culry hair and he was smart. I think he was the first dog that got a character role.

The books by Arthur C Doyle were family favorites and I think my sybs and I were always reading them and when one would finish anohter would read the book. Now my little sister has some matching volumns containing the complete works of Doyle. I reread The Scarlet Letters just a couple of years ago and had forfotten it was placed in London and USA Utah to be exact. fr

Mickey Spillane's novels really were just brag.. Very little plot or anything. The covers were the most risque part of them. I used to love Judge Dee.. Philip Marlowe...Ellery Queen (of course)..remember Isaac Asimov's robot detective. What fun he was. I think the first mechanical private eye..

Tom, thank you for the name of the dog

Lorrie, thank you for Tommy and Tuppence. You both saved me from a lot of thought. I enjoyed that series and seeing the styles of that era again. Was it the twenties or thirties.

Stephanie, let's add Boston Blacky to that list. 'member him.

Bill H

Bill,

What about Sam Spade? Hercole Proirot (sp),

I can remember a series about an Aborigine Detective whose names escapes me right now. Also, I believe, one who lived in South Africa and who are a half Caste I believe. Both were somewhat in the mold of Holmes.

Nick Carter, Master Detective was on the Radio and I believe in Books too.

There were a number of Radio Detectives: Mr. Keene tracer of lost persons; The Fat Man.

How about Charlie Chan? I believe that character was in books and in the Movies.

Tiger Tom

But I love all those Hercule Poirot plays and the producers could bring all of the old ones back for a second go round and I would watch them all again! David Suchet has a lock on that character part and no one else can come up with a better Hercule. I have seen David in two different American made movies where I didn't recognise him until half way through the play. A very versatile actor. And Tiger, you hit it on the head with Sam Spade! Can't quite come up with the name of the author there.. And, Nick and Nora were always favorites. Just saw one last week on TCM. I like Nero Wolf and Archie but some times the clues are overstretched. Nothing like a good mystery story to relax the brain. Losalbern

Yes, it was in the 20's, I believe, that Tommy and Tuppence were written, by Agatha Christie, by the way, FaithR.

I always loved Charlie Chan because of the sassy son he had, (Son #2?)but i changed my mind in later years when I read how the Chinese people in this country were appalled at the ludicrous figure "Charlie Chan" portrayed.

Lorrie

Lorrie,

There were two Oriental (I can't say for sure if they were Chinese or not) who played NO 1 Son and No 2 Son. There was occasionaly a No 2 Daughter.

The two males appeared in a number of films, One was Key Luke and the name of the other escapes me. He, I believe, appeared in the David Carradine series "Kung Fu" when the main character was a boy called "Grasshopper" and the Chinese Actor was his teacher.

I remember Key Luke was in a seriel with Russel Hayden, who played in some Hopalong Cassidey Films.

I believe the Chinese Community was irritated because Charlie Chan was played by a Swede one time and another White. Also the lousy English the character spoke although he was a Lt. in the Honolulu Police and was supposedly well educated.

Anyone remember Philo Vance?

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom; The Aboriginie was Napoleon Bonaparte wasn't it? I read all of those back in the 70s and then found them again- and the author just came floating back into my brain - Arthur Upfield, wasn't it? A colleague I worked with had just begun to read them too, so it was fun to talk about them. Now, tho, I am not sure that Upfield did the Boanparte series - will have to check that out. I have been re-reading Dorothy L Sayers's books - the Lord Peter Whimsey books and then found all of the literary criticism books I could about Sayers in the UT Library - what a feast. isak

Only the SHADOW Knows!!!

Remember that one?? On the radio during the 40's... Oh, the magic of hearing and each one forming their our mental pictures. I think our children and their children lost something in having all their images produced for them on tv.

Lou

How about Johnny Dollar? He was one of the last radio detectives still broadcasting, I remember standing at the sink listening to him in the late 50's, still going strong.

I am a huge fan of the Basil Rathbone Nigel Bruce Sherlock Holmes series, on radio and film, have all the movies and they are increasingly rare, and there are many many more radio programs available than you think, most people think you have to get those audio tape sets, and they are nice, with interviews, I've got them, but there are tons more of them and now Wal Mart is selling a set of audio tapes with the two actors who took up the series after Nigel Bruce quit. (Basil Rathbone quit the series because he found Holmes taking over his life just like Doyle did and it caused a rift in his long friendship with Nigel Bruce who continued on with Tom Conway).

If you're a fan of old time radio you want to know about these people: Crabapple Sound. This is a retirement project of a very nice man and his wife and they have them all, they're on audio and CD and the CD's are like $2.95 each and there are two episodes per CD.

One very nice touch is that if the announcer says next week we'll hear the story of....then that story is the next CD, they are marvelous!!

How about Sergeant Preston of the Yukon? "On, KING!!" Was he a detective or just a hero, not sure?

I'm also fascinated with the old time commercials you can still hear on the programs, Kreml Hair Products, Clipper Craft Suits and of course the famous Petri Wine, ("from father to son, from father to son,") and that in 1940. If you've been idly wondering what happened to that small dynasty you will be glad to learn they flourished, turned into Italian Swiss Colony Wine and Louis Petri became head of the nations largest grape co op in CA. His story, the only interview with him extant, is part of the Berkeley Oral History series and can be ordered, fascinating reading, man is very honest. One of the stipulations OF that interview is that no person can quote from it without written permission of Louis Petri himself first.

A fascinating time in our history, the development of the wine industry in America in California, and some of the best radio there ever was. I truly think somebody should bring it back, maybe we should make a radio show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wouldn't it be FUN? Hahahahaha

We could write the script and record it at our Bookfests, what a hoot~ I know how they made lightning, ahhaahahaha how did they do the steps on the floor?

ginny

Ginny,

Thanks loads for the Link. I have received an advert from a company selling tapes and CD's of old programs but they were expensive, too expensive for my taste.

I have the "Encyclopedia of Old Time Radio" by John Dunning 745 pages of text and about 70 pages of index so one can find things in a hurry. Brings back a lot of memeories. Will have to go through it to dig out the old Detective Radio Programs.

Tiger Tom

Isak2002,

The Detective's name was Napoleon Bonapart but I thought he had a last name and N.P. was his first and middle name. What do I know? You are right about the name. I only read a few books in the series so I am not sure how many books were written about the Character.

Tiger Tom

Here are some additional comments concerning the Sherlock Holmes character:

In the 1950’s there were several additional Holmes stories sanctioned be the Arthur Conan Doyle Estate. Sir Arthur’s son, Adrian Doyle, wrote the first ones. I remember some of them (I think four) were published in a magazine; almost certainly it was “Life” Magazine. I think there were other Estate sanctioned releases later including one entitled “The Seven Percent Solution” that I think was made into a movie, perhaps as late as the 1970’s. The plot had Holmes traveling to Vienna to consult with Dr Freud about a treatment for his cocaine addiction. I was surprised there was only a bare mention of “The Seven Percent Solution” from an Internet search and nothing on the plot or a movie. Does anyone remember this? Can anyone provide more Details on the “Seven Percent” plot?

I agree with Ginny’s comment. For me to Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce will always be Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson! I have noted elsewhere on other boards that in 1826 when John James Audubon traveled to England to publish his Birds Paintings, a most interesting Liverpool family named Rathbone assisted him. One of the very young children at that time was named Basil Rathbone. I wondered it this was the actor’s roots, but if so it was several generations later as I understand the actor’s origin was South Africa.

Harold,

Interesting that Holmes Drug addiction has never been a concern with most people about the Character. Of course, when the stories were first written Drug addiction wasn't a big deal as it is today.

Also, with the exception of one female (whose name I cannot remember) Holmes seemed to be oblivious to women. There is no hint in the stories of him being "Unatural" just that women were not a part of his life. I believe he considered them not up to par in the brain department or at least not on a level with males. In the Victorian era when this was not considered unusual. Holmes was just not subject to males "Beastly Nature"

Holmes and Watson never came across as anything but two men living in the same "Rooms." Interesting, because in this day and age there would be commentary on it. I always liked that lack of any moralizing in the stories other than against crime and criminals.

I wonder how Holmes fares with today's P.C. world.

Tiger Tom

Harold,

Do you remember "Michael Shane" Private Eye?

On radio, in movies and books.

A few days ago I saw a movie with Lloyd Nolan playing Shane. Not bad. Although Nolan just didn't come across as well as some of the other leading men of the day might have.

Tiger Tom

Harold, what a fascinating post, I have Rathbone's own autobiogaphy, and the only other biography of him, I'll look that up and report back, how interesting!!!

ginny

To remember names of people and places and things of long ago and far away. There were two or three mystery writers of the '30s who came up with some great stories that became movie classics. Like the Maltese ( sp?) Falcon. Wasn't that a Sam Spade character? Who wrote that? Daschell Hammett (double sp's, here) comes to mind but thats just a wild guess. Can anyone come up with other writers of that ilk? Does anybody remember the nickle lending libraries that you could find in drug stores during the Depression? That is where I first became acquainted with some of the books of Agatha Christie. For five cents a day you could rent a best seller. Shucks, where is Katie? She knows all this stuff? Losalbern

I recently read Wilkie Collins' a Woman in White and Moonstone. A little wordy but great mysteries. Both of them are told by narrative from the point of view of the different characters. If I remember correctly A Woman in White is credited with being the first mystery novel.

Iosalbern, you are right. The Maltese Falcon is by Dashiell Hammett with Sam Spade. Were Hammett's the first noir mysteries?

Lou

These are all great posts and my long term memory bank is going through the shake, rattle and roll process. I must admit I forgot about a lot of the detectives you folks are mentioning. Thank you for all the names.

I loved all those b&w movies of Holmes and Charlie Chan. Nothing like black and white to create the atmosphere needed for these dramas.

The Shadow, one of my all time favorites. I can still here the lead in commentator's voice as he said: "...the Shadow is in reality Lamont Cranston wealthy young man about town and his fiancee the lovely Margo Lane..." Yes, nothing like radio to stir the imagination.

Losalbern, Any time I hear the name Sam Spade, Humphrey Bogart springs to mind

Tom, the lady Sherlock Holmes admired is Irene Adler. The following quote is from the very first paragraph of Doyle's "A Scandal in Bohemia"

"To Sherlock Holmes she is always the woman. I have seldom heard him mention her under any other name. In his eyes she eclipses and predominates the whole of her sex..."

Ginny, thank you for the link. I intend to get those discs and what a bargain. They'll make for great listening on a cold winter night.

Losalbern, I do remember those lending libraries. Our corner drug store (and it was on a corner) charged ten cents for three days for paper backs

Bill H

These memories are great. I saw the Sherlock Homes movie where he goes to Vienna to meet Mr. Freud. It was ok but lacked the "real" sherlock ambiance. I have also seen spoofs of Sherlock Homes done by several different actors meant to be funny and I didnt think so. I guess I liked the real stories and characters too much. To this day The HOund of the Baskervilles remains the ultimate terror movie of my childhood. I saw the picture when I was maybe 10 or 11 and was really frightened. I am pretty sure it had Basil Rathbone in it.

I also saw one movie with a different english actor playing the part of Holmes where he was on ship board and had a romance..was this part of where he finds his ultimate woman? or is it one written for his estate after he is deceased. Maybe it was in the Cocain one when he went to Vienna. I am mixed up on it. Lorrie I bet you know. Or Ginny. She has a way of finding out if she doesnt know. Faith

Bill H,

Strange, when I hear "Sam Spade" I think of Howard Duff who played him on the Radio.

Irene Adler, she bested Holmes at least once maybe more times. He admired her mind very much. I doubt if he was even aware of her as a physical woman.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, interesting that you should mention John Dunning's "Encyclopedia of Old Time Radio." I'm reading a recent (2001) mystery by Dunning right now -- "Two O'Clock Eastern Wartime" -- set on the New Jersey coast during World War II and full of radio lore and techniques.

How times change -- as a kid, I wanted to be a secretary to a detective when I grew up. Now I want to be the detective, but can't remember which one.

I remember Sunday nights, sitting by the radio listening to "The Shadow," which didn't scare me to pieces, and then crying because my brother wanted to hear "Inner Sanctum", which did.

I loved Nick and Nora Charles, and Mr. and Mrs. North. I can still hear Nora Charles at the end of each show, "Goodnight, Nicky darling." Good grief, what will 10-year-olds remember from today's shows.

Nothing that nice, Babi!
I loved Jeremy Brett as Holmes. Thought he made the part so interesting. Buuuuut, who could not love Basil Rathbone? They were both good in their time and Brett made the second telling of these timeless tales very enjoyable. I,too, loved Inner Sanctum and Mr&Mrs North. Pam and Jerry? Is that right? And, of course, Nick and Nora Charles! Does anyone remember Jack, Doc and Reggie from "I Love a Mystery"? My husband's favorite. I would just listen to any mysteries on the radio.

Another good book about radio is Garrison Keilor's "WLT-A Radio Romance" which is about a new station in the 20's in a small town. Since my FIL started one of the first radio stations in Ohio, the stories that Keilor's tales were so familiar to me. Those things actually happened! I will be looking for Dunning's book, Babi. Thanks for mentioning it.

To day was a workday at my home office that is in an apartment attached to the garage behind my house. About a quarter to four this afternoon I took a break returning to the house where the TV was still running from this morning. I decided to change the channel to CNBC Business, and while navigating the menu I noticed “The hounds of the Baskerville” was then in progress on the Turner Classic Movie channel. So I watched the concluding hour and fifteen minutes. I thought it was well done; in particular I thought it told its story well as most old movies, even English ones do.

A Peter Cushing played Sherlock Holmes. My first thought was that he would have been better cast in the Doctor Watson role. By the end however I had to conclude that he did a pretty respectable job. One thing I though was a bit unholmsian, In the climax scene Holmes actually had a pistol in his hand. At this point after a long absence from the literature, I do not recall Holmes himself so armed. It was always Watson who was asked to bring his Pistol. The host at the end of the show mentioned that Peter Cushings is still active today and has had roles in a Star Wars title and other more recent movies. .

To day was a workday at my home office that is in an apartment attached to the garage behind my house. About a quarter to four this afternoon I took a break returning to the house where the TV was still running from this morning. I decided to change the channel to CNBC Business, and while navigating the menu I noticed “The hounds of the Baskerville” was then in progress on the Turner Classic Movie channel. So I watched the concluding hour and fifteen minutes. I thought it was well done; in particular I thought it told its story well as most old movies, even English ones do.

A Peter Cushing played Sherlock Holmes. My first thought was that he would have been better cast in the Doctor Watson role. By the end however I had to conclude that he did a pretty respectable job. One thin I though was a bit unholmsian, In the climax scene Holmes actually had a pistol in his hand. At this point after a long absence from the literature, I do not recall Holmes himself so armed. It was always Watson who was asked to bring his Pistol. The host at the end of the show mentioned that Peter Cushings is still active today and has had roles in a Star Wars title and other more recent movies. .

Click Here for The Hounds of the Baskerville

Tiger Tom The woman was the actress involved in the ”Scandal in Bohemia.” Remember the King of Bohemia was Holmes Client and Holmes devised a rather elaborate stakeout that enabled him to (lets be blunt) burglarize her home to recover the pictures for the errant monarch. Remember the story concludes with Watson saying something like, “to Holmes Irene Adler” (that name might not be exactly right) ” was always the woman.” Something like that..

Also I found a link to the movie I mentioned this morning. Click Here for The Seven Percent Solution

And Ginny did we perhaps discuss the Basil Rathbone roots before on another board?

I did pretty good in remembering the lady's name and her story but I was wrong about it being in the ending. Actually it was a skilfully concieved opening that read:

To sherlock Holmes she was always the woman. I have seldom heard him mention her under any other name. In his eyes she eclipses and predominates the whole of her sex. It is not that he felt any emotion akin to love for Irene Adler. All emotions, and that one particularly, were abhorent to his cold, precise but admirably balanced mind. He was, I take it, the most perfect reasoning and observing machine that the world has seen, but as a lover he would have placed himself in a false position. He never spoke of the softer passions, save with a gibe and a snere.

I apologize for repeating my earlier message twice. Once said was certainly enough, but aparently I managed to hit the paste button twice.

I have to thank you all! Thanks to this discussion I spent the most wonderful evening last night, just so enjoyable. I managed to find BOTH of the Basil Rathbone books (which itself is a miracle).

Faith, thank you for that, we may need Lorrie or others here, the only movie I can find in Basil Rathbone: His Life and Films of Basil Rathbone as Sherlock on a ship is Flight to Algiers and it does not mention a love interest (this book has the plot and the cast of every movie he was ever in, so if you all ever need to know somebody I can look it up, but he made a LOT of movies!!). It's kind of like Tiger Tom's book, in this case it shows every performance Rathbone did, and boy did he make them, what a career!!!

Apparently he did play in one of Adrian Doyle's plays, on Suspense on May 26, 1953, in The Adventure of the Black Baronet by Adrian Doyle, but that's all I can see but it would be easy to overlook one.

Harold, yes I think I've repeated myself in two different discussions, but here's something new:

This book mentions the marvelous senses of humor that Rathbone and Bruce both close friends, shared. During the production of the radio broadcasts, each man would try to trick the other and make him laugh. If you listen to the old broadcasts often they both erupt in laughter, it's quite fun. Once when Bruce turned away, Rathbone mixed up the pages of his script to hilarious result, and Bruce did some fairly unprintable antics which caused Rathbone to leave the stage blushing.

Rathbone, against the advice of everybody who knew him, gave up the role of Sherlock Holmes and moved to New York to pursue his first love, the theater. He said that Homes was strangling him, typecasting his career, and that the egotism that Holmes displayed and his put downs of Watson made him an unsympathetic character whom it was hard to make likeable.

Rathbone apparently was an anomaly in Hollywood, a literate (always with a book in his hand) , kind man who helped everybody he came in contact with, buying clothes for co actors, etc., a devoted husband and father, a poet himself. His will instructed:

I wish to be buried beside my wife- so close that, if it were possible, we might hold each other's hand...I wish to be buried above ground, as I look upon death as a gateway to an ascension and an elevation—not a descent.

Last night I got so caught up in all this I watched "Dressed to Kill" and "A Woman in Green," and enjoyed them both tremendously and Holmes did have a gun in the second one.

and FINALLY, Harold, here is what I have found about the Audubon reference. You said Audubon came in 1826, Rathbone was born on June 13, 1892, in Johannesburg, South Africa. In his book In and Out of Character he relates that at the age of 4 the family fled Johannesburg for Durban in a boxcar, his father hiding from the Boers under the box his mother sat on. (His mother had a premonition about the ship they were supposed to sail to England on, even to the name of the song sung, "Flowers of the Forest," so his father humored her, and by George, it sank while the band played that song!) It's chilling reading! The Rathbones took a later ship to England and arrived when he was 4 years old.

Rathbone does mention family in Liverpool, and Christmases at his Grandmothers and Grandfathers at Greenbank Cottage, Wavertree, Liverpool, apparently a very fine place. He goes on for pages about it. However after his Grandmother died when he was 10 they never went back till he was, as he puts it, in his "declining years," and did a nostalgic trip there, to Wavertree and Greenbank Cottage, and encountered the house for sale and an old man who did not recall the occupants. It's VERY poignant reading, actually quite poetic.

So it's apparent, and from his mention of "Uncle William," that the Rathbones of Liverpool were related and they may have been the very Rathbones that entertained Audubon, at any rate, enjoyed my Rathbone Evening!

ginny

Ginny,

What an interesting Man is Rathbone. What are the titles and ISBN Numbers of the two books you have on him?

I read in one of David Niven's books that Rathbone was the highest paid independent actor in Hollywood. Apparently he was not connected to any studio.

I remember the Radio Broadcasts of Sherlock Holmes.

MY oldest brother keeps surprising me, he has taped every Sherlock Holmes movie that has been broadcast on T.V. I never knew he even LIKED the character. He loaned them to me saying "Guard these with your life" I watched them and returned the tapes to him in good shape. (BTW he was also a Hopalong Cassidey Fan which I also didn't know.)

Tiger Tom

Bill H,

Two more "Detectives"

Bulldog Drummond and "The Falcon"

Tiger Tom

Tom, the two books are:

Basil Rathbone: In and Out of Character by Basil Rathbone (a VERY good read) ISBN: 0-87910-119-9, paperback, I think it's just been reprinted and

Basil Rathbone: His Life and His Films by Michael B. Druxman ISBN: 0-498-01471-1 harback and out of print.

I forgot also to ask those of you who recommend Nero Wolfe to recommmend what you think his best one was, or a good one to start with? I also grow orchids, I'd like to have what you think is a memorable one, have never read one.

I did notice one thing in the movies last night, Sherlock can't really play the violin (this is what you learn when you take cello) and the way he throws it around shows that if you couldn't notice by the playing tho he's quite good at imitation.

Is Harold right and the first detective WAS Sherlock? Did Doyle start it all? How interesting!

I know a detective I bet you all don't recall and I would kill, just KILL for one of the books, anybody but me remember the Bonita Granville series? Apparently Bonita Granville was a movie star and somebody wrote a detective series starring her, I read them along with Nancy Drew and Nurse Cherry or whoever she was as a child, anybody remember her?

Tom, I also love Hoppy, and watching those old shows is really a revelation. Hoppy comes to a saloon, he enters, bad guys within, but it's always a moral thing, a moral stance, a moral decision, he doesn't want to fight, the stories were quite powerful in reruns.

For some reason I know the names of all the cowboy heroes horses, I guess little girls love horses, anyway, yes Hoppy I think was better than Tom Mix.

ginny showing her age

Ginny, your reference the Hounds...has made me once again aware of the ending of the recent PBS presentation of that story. In that movie, Mrs (Beryl) Stapleton, who was passed off as Stapleton's sister, was murdered by her husband . So I'm going to view my Rathbone and Watson video cassette of the Hound of the Baskervilles just to see the main difference in the two endings. I haven't viewed my copy for quite a while, but I thought this movie showed Beryl Stapleton and Sir Henry were to be married at the end. However, the original story told of no such happening.

The Maltese Falcon is reported to have been Sam Spade's most treacherous and deadly case. I saw the movie but didn''t read the book. Going to see if my library has it.

I'm trying to remember the actor's name who played the part of the villain in the Maltese Falcon. He was a huge fat man and co- starred in that movie with Bogart? I believe he and Humphrey Bogart co-stared in other movies as well.

Back in the fifties or there abouts Perer Lawford played in a TV series of The Thin Man, while entertaing enough, I didn't think it was as good as the William Powell and Myrna Loy movie. They were such a great screen duo. In those days, it was thought that a cigarette in one hand and a drink in the other made for sophistication. When Bill Powell entered his apartment (no house for these two) he would first pour a drink then light up a cigarette.

Ginny and all, The article in the heading gives a good review of the history of mysteries... The Collins' books I posted about were earlier than Sherlock... and the Moonstone has an interesting detective, whose name escapes me right now. He was modeled after one of the first detectives hired on the London police force. Collins was a good friend of Dickens and wrote these two books in serial form for publication in Dickens' literary newspaper(??)/magazine?? AH! found the book... the detective is Sergeant Cuff. Written in 1868.

Lou

Bill H,

Fat man was Sydney Greenstreet. A major Character actor of the 30's and 40's. He was in a number of films with Bogart and Peter Lorre.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

Thank you for the titles and Numbers.

I did a Google Search on Rathbone and found a site in which the site owners says that he is making Xerox or some kind of copies of the book: Basil Rathbone his life and films. One can order a copy for 35 dollars.

Doesn't this remind you a bit of the Bounty Discussion where you had some many wonderful things about Bligh and the Bounty and found more?

Tiger Tom

LOU!! So glad to see you, I DOOO see that, the first "modern" detective story, that's a GOOD article, Bill, thank you for calling my attention to it but I want to know what the first mystery written was, not modern?

How old is that genre? I have printed the article and will now happily go read it.

Bill, I can't recall the ending! (Shows you how much good it does me to view, huh? Let us know!) hahahaaha

Tom, yes this is very like the Bounty research, one door leads to another, I was thinking that I paid a whole lot less for that book on his films, I could be wrong, I'll look it up again!

ginny

All,

For those of you who might be interested, the full title and ISBN No of the book I cited is:

"On the Air, The Encyclopedia of Old time Radio" by John Dunning, Pub by Oxford Universit Press, ISBN No. 0-19-507678-8

I guess one can look up Oxoford Univeristy Press by doing a Google Search.

I received a Cataloge from them one day in the mail and have ordered a number of books out of that Cataloge. I would have ordered mor but money and lack of room for more books restrained me.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

As I said before, it is my understanding that the first Mystery was by Poe, "Murder in the Rue Morgue" I may be wrong, that has happened before.

Tiger Tom

As I said before, it is my understanding that the first Mystery was by Poe, "Murder in the Rue Morgue" I may be wrong, that has happened before.

Tiger Tom

Published 1841 the first time...

Tiger Tom is right. Lou is wrong. The article said the first English mystery. Not the first mystery, which was American. Good for you Tiger Tom... I stand corrected. well, actually set corrected! LOL

Lou

Having written a paper about Poe, back in the olden days, I believe that I remember him being the father of the first American mystery. His first mystery was, "The Mask of the Red Death" published in 1838. Then, came "The Fall of the House of Usher" in 1839. Now that's on a page from the Poe Museum in Richmond, VA but when I looked elsewhere, I found that they are separated by Detective stories and Horror stories so here's that list, from another site. Poe's Works

I have read both of Wilkie Collins books, back in the 70's and liked them. There was movie of "Woman in White".

The librarian in me couldn't let it rest... sorry! I found a great web site...

www.mysterynet.com/timeline

(Sorry, I don't know how to make this a link here....)

The following is kinda fun info on the first mystery writing... Lots more info there if you are interested.

The fascination with mystery and crime can be traced back to Ancient Greece, where playwrights like Sophocles and Euripides enthralled the local citizenry with their plays combining mystery and drama. In first-century B.C. Rome, Cicero argued passionately in court in defense of accused criminals, captivating Romans with his speeches. While courtroom dramas still enthrall readers, mysteries have taken many other forms, including cozies, locked-room puzzles, and detective pulp novels. Read our evolution of the mystery in Time Line, and you'll see that the Ancient Greeks and Romans weren't so different from modern-day mystery fans.

Lou

Edit: Ann I have looked for the Woman in White movie. Do you have any idea when it was made?

Lou, here's a link, not yours, as they sent me to this one. MysteryNet

Well, that doesn't work either. I will try again after I look up the date of the movie.

Lou, according to my search, Woman in White was produced in 1948 and starred Eleanor Parker as Laura. Another interesting point in this article is that the story was produced under different titles before this one. But this is considered the best. Woman in White

Another attempt at the Mystery Net. The Mystery Net

And on that site is this article naming Poe as the father of the modern mystery. EdgarAllanPoe

All,

Hoo Boy! I am not sure if it wasn't some ancient Egyptian who wrote the first Mystery.

I really don't know who did it, wrote the first Mystery. Does it really matter? A good detective novel or murder mystery is great Bathtub reading or late at night while in bed. If it gets the gray matter working, all the better.

Tiger Tom

Ginny,

Was doing a search of Basil Rathbone. Looked at the photo gallery in one site.

I was surprised at how Rathbone's Nose stood out on his face. One's eye is drawn to it right away. If one can move away from that feature, Rathbones eyes are almost hypnotic. Dark, and penetrating. If his nose was not so commanding his eyes would be even more dramatic.

Tiger Tom

IMHO,the most powerful story of the Sherlock Holmes series was when he went into the opium den and almost became an addict himself. Powerful tale!

Tiger, piercing eyes, yes, Basil Rathbone did have those.

Winter is always a depressing time for me...I hate the cold, the dark and dreary days. Yesterday though and this morning as well I spied robins in my yard. HOORAY! so I decided to come here and read all the posts.

I cant think of a detective you missed. I loved them so much. One reason I think because I never felt I had to memorize any of them but just enjoy. Frankly I find all the older ones ..in time not age ...better. They were stories and little offensive language..I dont recall any at least. I still have a lot on my book shelves ,,,some so old the silverfish I found had a great feast.

While the detective stories are what we are considering I also recall the great mystery stories ...Mary Roberts Rinehart, and Mary Stewart..wrote wonderful mysteries. At least they kept my attention and some in my youth I found quite scary.

This has been so much fun to read ...and a pleasure to recall ....thanks so much...anna

Anna, happy you dropped by.. Mary Roberts Rinehart's novels would more than qualify here. Remember her Miss Pinkerton series beginning with "The Buckled Bag" etc? Miss Pinkerton was nurse Hilda Adams who does undercover work for the police. I suppose Rhinehart figured that if Sir Author Conan Doyle could have a private eye she could also with Hilda Adams.

Did anyone mention the Saint? Leslie Charteris started this series back in 1933 and many of the stories were made into movies. Who was the silver screen's or TV's most popular actor that played the part of the Saint in these movies?

Bill H

I loved the Saint books, but not the tv show. But on the radio?? Mr. Keane.. tracer of missing persons?? or some such. I remember we always listened to that and Lights Out.

has reminded me about a book that I picked up at a garage sale years ago and never got around to reading it. So I looked it up and have it right beside me, and folks, this is a gem! It is called "Ten Great Mysteries" by Howard Haycraft and John Beecroft and the first story is the "Maltese Falcon" followed by "The Learned Adventure of the Dragons Head" by Dorothy Sayers and "The Case of the Crying Swallow", by Earl Stanley Gardner and "Witness for the Prosecution", Agatha Christy. And other stories by Ellery Queen, Daphne du Maurier, Rex Stout,William Irish, Margery Allingham and Josephine Tey. Hey, this is like finding money in the street! What a pleasure! what a treasure! Now, I don't read books nowadays like I used to because of a stupid "floater" that won't dissipate and insists on laying across the line of print I am attempting to read. It makes reading of a book or newspaper rather strained at the normal distance. ( A computer monitor isn't nearly as bad). But folks I am going to read this book in spite of strain or pain ( you know where) because my appetite for mystery stories has been whetted! Thanks for all the whetting! Losalbern

In Bed? In the Bathroom? hahahha losalbern I read more in the bathroom now than in my easychair. I too have problems with sight and it has definitely cut into my reading. I always read 3 books a week since I retired and sometimes more. Usually a non fiction and a good fiction and several mysteries and light novels all going at once. Now I am good for abut one chapter at a time so it is a book a month if that. You are right the computer screen can be easier though I get flashes if I read longer than 1/2 hour hear too. Am due for another cararact op. Hope it helps when I get it. Soon too I hope. Just had one so insurance is balky. We will see.

Was Rhinhart the author of the Tish novels? I want to find Tish novels and no one seems to know who I am talking about. LOrrie? Ginny? Tish was a "old woman" who lived with her sister(s) and a nephew is the narrator of the tales. They get into all kinds of mysterious circumstances because of Tish' curiosity. One time Tish made a bet she could survive in the wilderness longer than the young narrator could. They set a time limit and what they could take. Just a knife some string and a match or two. I cant remember but Tish won. one reason being she found blackberries to eat and she killed rabbits to make warm blanket and stuff like that ..It was a wonderful book. Faith

Faithr, although I had little faith in finding what you asked about, I search on Netscape and VOILLA! Here in an article is the mention of Rinehart's Tish.

Rinehart achieved success on Broadway and as a novelist almost simultaneously; for the next 45 years she would remain one of America's most popular authors. The immediate effect on her was a swerve into comic fiction for the next five years (1908-1913). She stopped appearing in the low paying pulps, and started to write for the commercially premier magazines. Much of her fiction during this period was in the form of long short stories. Her first sale to the Saturday Evening Post was "The Borrowed House" (1909), a long comic story about the wild adventures of some British suffragettes. Rinehart was a feminist, and marched for women's suffrage during this era. The next year she created Tish, a middle aged spinster who would be the center of a series of comic long short stories for the next 30 years. Tish and her friends Aggie and Lizzie do all the things largely forbidden to the women of their time, race motor cars, pilot dirigibles, drive ambulances in World War I France, do stunt work in silent pictures and hunt for sharks and grizzly bears. Underneath the delightful comic surface of these tales is a brilliant feminist vision, and the series of five Tish books is a masterpiece of humor. Many of the finest Tish stories have been collected in an omnibus aptly titled The Best of Tish (1955). In fact, except for "My Country Tish of Thee -" (1916), most of the really good Tish stories are in this collection.

Oh, the article mentions later more about Tish and her sisters so here is a link to the Mary Roberts Rinehart article: Rinehart

Bill H,

First person to play the Saint in the Moveis was George Saunders. I am not usre how many films he made playing that character. I THINK, but I am not sure, that the British actor Louis Hayward also played the Character too.

Here in the U.S. the only one I can remember playing the Saint was on T.V. Roger Moore. He also Played James Bond in a number of films.

I seems to remember some American Made movies of the Saint but don't know who played the title role. It could have been Tom Connoway, Borther of George Saunders.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

TOM!!! YESS YESSSSSSSSSSSSS Yes it makes such a difference who the first detective was, because it's just marvelous what we've done here! Thank you Lou and Tom and Bill and everybody who submitted the first detective, when you look them up you find all sorts of variance, but certainly Poe was the first in America with his detective Dupin and Wilkie Collins was first in England, but does it not shock you at ALL that the genre is so NEW? I was quite surprised at Lou's finding ancient Greek references, this is just amazing, but the DETECTIVE seems to be a modern invention, barely 150 years old, I'm just astounded, I had no idea, did you all?

I think this is a very valuable thing to have realized, I guess to have a detective you'd need to have a force of police types right? Because even the Miss Marples have to have a detective to bounce off of? Amazing.

And Agatha Christie who was born in the 1800's then was right in the thick of it, also, amazing, how do you think the modern detectives compare to the good old ones?

Persnoally I love MONK, have you seen that thing? Tony Shaloub got best actor in a comedy series at the Golden Globes for his portrayal of this neurotic loveable SMART detective, I think he's fabulous and he did deserve it (and so did Curb Your Enthusiasm for best comedy).

And I digress, I have learned not to argue with a TIGER, I looked up the prices for the Basil Rathbone books and nearly died of shock. YOu say you found somebody printing them at $30 per, Tom?

Check these out:

Basil Rathbone: His Life and His Films
Author: Michael B., Druxman
Condition: Hardcover, some edgewear, tiny tears to dust jacket, overall a very good copy, hard-to -find, black and white photos Inventory#new VG/no dust jacket
Format: Hardcover
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Basil Rathbone: His Life and His Films.
Author: Druxman, Michael B.
Condition: Stamford, CT, U. S. A. 1975 Hard Cover Near Fine/Very Good 0498014711 A wonderful copy with a hint of edgewear to the cover.
Format: Hardcover / Dust Jacket
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Basil Rathbone: His Life & His Films.
Author: Druxman, Michael B.
Condition: 1975, 1st HC [Difficult to find ÒbibleÓ on career of this movie icon] NF/NF.
Format: Hardcover / Dust Jacket
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Basil Rathbone: His Life & His Films.
Author: Druxman, Michael B.
Condition: Stamford, CT, U. S. A. 1975 Hard Cover First Edition Near Fine/Very Good- 8vo-over 7¾"-9¾" tall 0498014711 359pp. Light rubbing and edge wear to DJ. One small tear to back top of DJ.
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Basil Rathbone: His Life and His Films
Author: Druxman, Michael B.
Condition: Hard Cover. Near Fine. First Edition. 4to - over 9¾" - 12" tall. The jacket has the price clipped from the front upper right corner flap. Still, the book and DJ are in fine condition.
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Basil Rathbone : His Life & His Films
Author: Druxman, Michael B.
Condition: Hard Cover. Fine/Near Fine. First Edition. Inscribed by Author. 4to - over 9¾" - 12" tall.
Format: Hardcover / First Edition / Dust Jacket / Signed
Associated Dealer: Oddball Books
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WOWZA~~ And no my copy is going to be held so it can triple in value in a year or so, amazing!!

Wonderful discussion!

ginny

Ann Alden I just spent a delightful 20 minutes reading the informative article on Rinehart you gave the url to. It was very nostalgic for me because my Mother who was a great reader and also had serious marital issues, plus was born in 1898 and was a flapper too, told me to read Tish.

I remember at the library I was having trouble picking out a book and she said "well try reading these Tish stories and see if they are interesting to you. This writer doesn't mince words about women's feelings. It may teach you something."I was about 10 but the thing is I had been reading all the same books my big sis and mom did for two years. some of course were way over my head but not these stories.

So throughout my life I read Tish stories then Ms. Pinkerton and as I grew older any of Rinehart's books were my favorites.I did get a distinct impression that women could do anything they tried to do if they stuck to it. And didn't listen to men. And didn't get stuck in a marriage. Such things I learned. Didn't stop me from getting married of course. I had forgotten many of the titles so that is where the nostalgia comes in. Recalling my feelings regarding these books and stories makes me homesick. Still I would read them now and see them very differently I think. faith

Stephanie, I loved "Lights Out Everybody." That and "Inner Sanctum" made for good imagination. ". .this is your host Raymond and welcome to Inner Sanctum" I can still hear that guy's voice. You know, the mental pictures conjured up via the radio can put TV to shame

Losalbern Ten Great Mysteries sounded so good I did a search for it and, you know what, it's still available at abebooks.com. Here's a link. justg type in title and name of author. It's number two in the list.

Ten Great Mysteries

Tom, yea, suave George Saunders. I still remember him in the movie "Rebecca." I'm sure I still have that movie on video cassette. And Louis Hayward....Didn't he also play in "The Man in the Iron Mask?" I'm sure he starred in quite a few swash bucklers.

Ginny, that's a very impressive list of the Basil Rathbone books. They all must contain some very good reading at those prices. Hold on to your copy. I'm positive we won't see your copy in our Book Exchange. ;o)

Ann, that was a very good link you placed for Rinehart.

I so much agree with Ginny that these are all very good posts.

Bill H

Ginny,

The guy is making Photo Copies, and stapling the pages together. He wants 35 Dollars plus Shipping and Handling. I guess the price would be better than the ones you cited but I would rather a Hardcover copy of the Book, just a quirk with me.

Bill H, Yes Louis Haywood played in the "Man in the Iron Mask' a old black and white film made in England. He also played in a number of Swash Bucklers. In one of them he played Dick Turpin. Haywood also played a character named the "Lone Wolf" it was on in the U.S. for a while. Last time I saw him was in an episode of "Night Gallery"

Tiger Tom

Also didn't Rathbone also have a role in the 1938 "Robin Hood" film? This was the one with Errol Flynn as Robin Hood. I think I remember Rathbone's role as one of the bad guys, maybe the Sheriff of Nottingham? I saw this film about a year ago on the TCM channel.

WOW your posts take me back a long way...the radio, the books, and I agree TV is too visual ...There may be some that would argue but the radio stirred ones imagination. I loved I love a Mystery ..I think Mercedes McCambridge played the female lead. She had the most interesting voice. Inner Sanctum and The Green Hornet and Kato...My father loved The Lone Ranger...I found when I married I could iron one of my husbands shirts in the time it took for a 15 min soap opera..I knew if I went over and into the next soap I was listening instead of ironing!

Somewhere I have an anthology of the best Detective stories >>>I will have to look it up. It has been YEARS since I read it...It was from my detective and mystery years...I find now I prefer reading about real people who are either alive or historical..still sometimes you wonder how accurate they are...

Well this is a wonderful discussion.. George Sanders played such a delicious evil person. anna

Faithr, I was 'bowled over" by your post as my venture into mysteries by Mary Roberts Rindhart were very similar to yours. My mother loved Rinehart so she highly recommended her books. What made me nostalgic was the way your mom suggested that you read the books. Sounded just like my mom and I, too, had been reading the books that she read for a few years. I was still reading Rinehart into the 80's as I just liked the way she wrote. However, I have not read any of the Tish stories. Maybe I will look into the used book stores here on the net and see what might be available.
I mention the used book sites here as I was wondering if some of those books mentioned above might be found there ie.Sherlock Holmes etc.

Does anyone remember the PBS series of Lord Peter Whimsey by Dorothy Sayers which was on here, maybe, 25 years ago? They were fun watching. And, of course, Miss Marple! I loved the first Ms Marple played by Dame Mae Whitty but also liked the later actress. Did you know that the later lady was in the first Miss Marple movies as an extra? We can get the older movies at our library and I just love to watch them as they are so humorous.

For anyone interested in looking for new/used books try this site: http://www.bookfinder.com

I found several new and used copies of Tish books and multiple copies of Rinehart titles. And, hundreds of Holmes books,too.

This is the world that I live in---I looked online at our library for "pedln"'s suggestion of John Dunning's book that she was reading. Surprise, surprise! I already had it checked out on audio tape for my husband's listening pleasure as he tools to work. So, I am now on the list for the book! Thanks, Pedln.

Harold,

Yes, Rathbone did play the Sherrif Of Notingham Forest, in the 1938 film, The Adventures of Robin Hood starring Errol Flynn.

Flynn and Rathbone were the best Swordsmen in Holywood both having been trained in fencing and by the Hollywood Swords Masters.

Tiger Tom

Ann maybe your mom like mine was a closet feminist...she couldn't be though when she was sixteen to eighteen she was very much a "suffragette." Then women got the vote and a little later she married and became"the little woman"..she had six kids and raised them all to be independent regardless of sex and she treated each as an individual too.

Those "Flappers" were not the fuzzy headed thrill seekers that are depicted in the media as much as they were just coming out of the dark ages along with leaders like Rinehart. I also was given a book about two maiden ladies who travel to Tibet and Manchuria and India and it was non fiction. I wanted to be an adventuress and an architect and a wife and a mother so I did get to be a wife and a mother hahahah This discussion is an adventure.

Basil Rathbone was so great as Sherlock that I never saw another Holmes that was as impressive to me and of course I grew older. The Fat Man some one asked about that played with Humphrey Bogart was Sidney Greenstreet in the Maltese Falcon. He was a sinister character in many more movies. He was old before he came to movies and I wonder what he did before that. Also I am sorry people were offended by Charlie Chan. I thought he was wonderful. A great detective. Faith

Ann, Thanks so much for the Woman in White link... that led me to the Feb schedule for the TCM channel... and that led me to a link for 6 mysteries for 99cents plus 1 free one, good new books, mystery book club!!! So, you did me a great favor!!

Lou

Yeah Rathbone made tons of movies, right up till he died, heck he made, (I think, 14 Sherlock Holmes movies, I could be wrong)....somebody here said earlier about his nose and his presence? Fernando Lamas is quoted in the film book (I agree, Tom, I would rather have the real book too) that when Basil Rathbone was on the screen you could not look at anybody else. I watched Woman in Green after I read that comment, and it's true. I don't know what it was about him, but you can barely notice anybody else, some of it's the staging. I noticed they tended to turn everybody toward him in the scenes as if they, too, were looking at him, I personally can't take my eyes off him.

A cute story and true on Rathbone's sense of humor, he was attending a showing of one of his films and for some reason he helped answer the phones at the theater. When a woman called to be sure he would be appearing, he assured here that yes, "Razzle Bathbone will be here tonight! Yes, Razzle Bathbone!" what a hoot he must have been. hhaahahaa

I love Mary Roberts Reinhart (spelling) and have several of hers, we ought to read her some time.

I have found ONE reference to the Bonita Granville Series, but only one book, boy o boy if you see those things on ebay, JUMP, if google can only find one title you better believe they are worth something.

I wish I had the ones I read but I wish I had the Disney Comics I read, too, they're also worth a mint.

AND the baseball cards!@ Phil Rizzuto! Robin Roberts! I can smell that gum now!

(Sorry Bill!! hahahahaha off in nostalgia land)... hahahahaa

ginny

I was curious to find out what the book "10 Great Mysteries" was selling for and they had two copies going for $7.00 each. I think I paid about a buck for the copy I bought at a garage sale some years ago. I am in process of reading the first novel, Dashiel Hammett's "Matltese Falcon", into chapter 6 just now, and imagining Bogart, Lorre and Mary Astor doing their thing. Hammett was such a good descriptive writer of each character and setting. Greenstreet and his little gunsel ( can't think of the actors name) have yet to make their presence known at this point. A fun story! One other thought re Rathbone; I always thought that the guy had some a wonderful voice. I can't hear it now just thinking about him.. Losalbern

Anna, you have a wonderfull memory: Mercedes McCambidge. Did you ever leave the imprint of the iron on a shirt while waching a soap? )

Ann, yes, I watched the BS movies of Lord Peter Wimsey. I wish PBS would show them again. Do you remember the name of the actor who played Lord Peter? Dame Mae Whitty. I'm so happy you mentioned her, as soon as I read the name I instantly picured her strong facial characters. Am I being nostalgic when I say I think the old time actors and actresses were so much better than todays. I suppose I am.

Tom, Rathbone was reported as keeping himself in excellent physical condition by fencing and other PT training. He also played the part of the villian in several other movies as well

Ginny, you were very astute in noticing everyone's eyes were directed towards Rathbone. In photography this is called creating a center of focus, also placing a person or face, etc, in the upper left, right third of the picture a little off center does the same thing

I remember the baseball. cards I just spun mine away trying to match other cards.

Losalbern, the little gunsel was Peter Lorrie. Glad you found out what the book is selling for now.

Faith, I never read anything demeaning to the Chinese in the Charley Chan movies either. I thought he was portrayed as a brilliant detective. I liked Werner Olen best as Chan.

Bill H

Perhaps some one mentioned him already but just in case no one did. I now put forth the name of that great fictional detective in all of American fictional detective lore. That, of course, being DICK TRACY and his two way wristwatch radio. What would he have done with out it.? Do you think this watch could've been the fore runner of the cell phone? If not, perhaps I should patent that idea? Just think your c-phone could double as a wrist watch, then people could see you talking to your wrist. ) Detective Tracy appeared in the most revered book in American literature the book that was loved by people of all ages: THE COMIC BOOK.and, of course, the comic strip.

Bill H

Hey, here's a link to a very interesting mini biography of Basil Rathbone. . Don't miss out on this it tells you quite a bit about the actor. So many things I never knew. He was quite a person even before becoming an actor. You might want to Bookmark this website it is called the Interned Movie Data Base. You can search for all your stars on this site.. However here is the link for,

Basil Rathbone

"The Tower of London" movie he starred in had quite a cast. Check it out when you use the link.

Bill H

Sidney Greenstreet didnt begin his acting career till he was 65!! He had a wonderful voice too and was the first Nero Wolfe on the Radio in 1950. It was only one broadcast I think and went off the air.

There are many modern detectives I love and they all write the good old formula stories but some of them twist it so it is hard to find the answer from the given clues so it can be a fun read. There is Kit sombody, who is in Sacramento area . There is the Hopi or Navajo policeman who has mysteries to solve on the reservation and his name slips my mind yet I have read at least six of those books. They are fun and full of authentic information too. faith

Would you be thinking of the Joe Leaphorn/Jim Chee series by Tony Hillerman, faithr? I've enjoyed them a lot, too.

I really doted on a couple of those old time detective series ... still own all the Lord Peter Wimsey tales by Dorothy L. Sayers. I'm sure I've read each one at least twice! I do remember the excellent PBS series but not the name of the actor; sorry.

And also I was very fond of Nero Wolfe/Archie Goodwin. There's been a rather nice series based on some of them on A&E just this past year. I think they are still showing reruns of them.

And who couldn't love Miss Marple?! Still own a few of them too. The actress who played her on PBS... oh, I can almost say that name... Joan something, wasn't it?

Joan Hickson?

Bill you are right what a cast in the Tower and the one on Louis XIV where he got an Oscar nomination, I think I need to see both of those, this discussion just keeps opening doors!

Cherry Ames was the nurse I was trying to think of, did the Bobbsey Twins solve mysteries or did they just have adventures? Going waaayy back now hahahaa

ginny

What about Hercules Poirot?

Love the books and TV series.

Carolyn

Gee Whiz as I would have said years ago...you are opening doors in my mind and what a great gift to meet those who remember the wonderful books I read years ago. Makes me feel perky and sassy!

I just remembered Mercedes McCambridge because she had this very unusual voice and I always hoped some day I would have the same. By the way wasnt The Shadow played by Orson Welles?

I can still hear the squeaky door on was it? I Love a Mystery? Those old shows mesmerized me and while listening I could "SEE" the places and "KNEW" how each character looked.

LOL No I never ruined a shirt when I was ironing but sometimes I went from The Romance Of Helen Trent to Our Gal Sunday and knew I was listening instead of ironing. It was quite a chore by the way ,,my husband was 6'2" and wore a 5 sleeve and I was only 5' and wore a size 30 blouse so the first time I ironed one of his shirts I thought MY GOODNESS I HAVE MARRIED OMAR THE TENT MAKER AND THIS IS HIS SHIRT! and that is exactly what I thought....anna who enjoys remembering with everyone here

Thanks for the Rathbone link, Bill. I knew nothing about the name except I enjoyed his movies.

Faith, did you find out what Greenstreet was doing before he started acting at 65? It would almost be like having the chance at two lives, wouldn't it?

On Chan, I don't think that it was anything offensive in his portrayal, just that the character was so stereotyped. Ah, so! ...Babi

Dphne du Maurier... Oh I think I read everything she ever wrote. I did love the pure Englishness or what I perceived as English. I wanted to live in Mandalay.. Didne we all. Could there have been a more romantic hero? Oh me.. That does bring back my younger days. I was amazed somewhat later in life to discover her Dad was a famous actor.

that I had in mind , Bill, (in the Maltese Falson), who hired out to Sidney Greenstreet's Kasper Gutman, was Wilber Cook, played by one of Hollywoods best character actors, Elisha Cook, Jr. I finally looked it up on Google. Losalbern

Losalbern, yes, you are so right about Esisha Cook playing the gunsel. When you mentioned him his face just poped right into mind. Didn't he also play Ice Pick in the TV series "Magnum, P I?"

Here's a mini biography of

Elisha Cook

This Internet Movie Database website is great for searching for information of the stars both screen and TV.

Bill H

Sidney Greenstreet: I was mistaken in thinking he wasnt an actor he was all his life but on stage, made film debut at 62..:"Date of birth (location) 27 December 1879 Sandwich, Kent, England, UK Date of death (details) 18 January 1954 Hollywood, California, USA. (effects of diabetes and nephritis) Mini biography: His father was a leather merchant with eight children. He left at age 18 to make his fortune as a Ceylon tea planter but drought forced him out of business and back to England. He managed a brewery and, to escape borderom, took acting lessons. His stage debut was as a murderer in a 1902 production of "Sherlock Holmes". From then on he appeared in numerous plays in England the US, working through most of the 1930s with the Lunts at the Theatre Guild. His parts ranged from musical comedy to Shakespeare. His film debut, aged 62 and weight nearly 300 pounds, was as Kasper Guttman in "The Maltese Falcon" (1941). He joined Peter Lorre in eight more movies after that. In eight years time he made twenty- four films, all the while beset by diabetes and Bright's disease. In 1949 he retired from cinema, and four years later he died at 75.

I was talking to my daughter and she said she still has a Nancy Drew Mystery published in the 40's with my name in it . I dont remember it but I know I was reading Nancy Drew way after I was married and having a baby. (remember I was 14 when I married.) faith

Elisha Cook,

In a way, the standard bearer of the little guys in the world. He showed that he might be small but not one to be trifled with easily.

I remember him now. He got shot off his horse by Jack Palance. He usually came to a bad end. He could scare the daylights out of a person on occasion.

Tiger Tom

Faith, thank you for the mini bio of Sydney Greenstreet. He was an intimidating character and probably a very imposing person on stage. What a sight that must've been to see him walk on and take center stage.

Tom, Elisha Cook could scare the daylights of a person. I wonder if his neurotic screen behavior was all put on.?

Bill H

I digress for a moment.

Before I forget, which I frequently do, I would like take this moment to tell all of you the new happenings in our "Welcome Center." Every day there I post the birthdays of famous people such as authors, actors, presidents, etc, that is published in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. I'm sure you will like seeing the names of those whom you may have forgotten about. Of course, the names of famous young people appear there also.

Along with the Birthdays, I post a quote of the day by an author and sometimes create a link that takes you to a mini bio of the author. Check it out. You may like it.

Here's a link

Welcome Center

Bill H

Here is a great link that will take you to mini bios and photos of all the mystery authors we have been talking about. At the bottom of each page you will see a little red arrow that will whisk you to the next author's bio. Don't miss out your going to love it.

Mystery Net

Bill H

Bill, Thanks so much for the Mystery Net link. Agatha Christie and Dorothy Sayers are two of my favorite mystery writers. I periodically re-read their work. Christie's Miss Marple is one of my favorites.

FlaJean, welcome to the Curious Minds discussion. Now that you found us I hope you visit often.We would love to hear what your favorite old time detectives were.

We were talking about the PBS mystery presentation that featured the characters of Tommy and Tuppence. I'm placing a link here that will tell a little more about this TV presentation.

Tommy and Tuppence

Lorrie, it seems as though you were right about these movies being set in the twenties era. As you can see the "The Secret Adversary" in which these characters appeared was 1922.

Bill H

Click Here for a link to the WGPH store offering several "Lord Peter Wimsey" tapes. This is a PBS station so I presume these tapes are from the PBS Lord Peter series. Strangely the do not answer the question of the Actor's name who played the lead role. It looks like somewone (not me) will have to buy the tapes to find the answer!

I found my well worn hard cover copy of the Complete Sherlock homes and a less worn hard cover "Father Brown" book. I remember my Lord Peter books were paperback and most of my old ones are in storage in a loft in my garage.

I keep my Lord Peter books out and accessible since I do reread them periodically.. Actually when I first met them, I used to throw them at walls because of her penchant for writing in latin, etc. Drove me nuts.. Seemed some sort of false idea.. Very pretentious actually. But Dorothy was not an easy woman ever.

Harold, thanks for the clickable. I purchased a hard cover of the of the Complete Sherlock Homes back in 1952 and still have it. The pages are turning brown with age. If you can find a hard back copy of the Illustrated Sherlock Holmes Treasury (revised & Expanded) take a look at it. I believe you will enjoy the graphics.

Stephanie, the Lord Peter story I liked best was The Nine Taylors.

By the way has anyone mentioned Dr. Fu Man chu?

I found a web giving Ian Carmichael as the actor that played in the PBS movies of Lord Peter Wimsey. Here's a clickable you Lord Peter fans may enjoy

Classics

Bill H

Ginny, I followed your suggestion and watched the black and white movie of the Hounds of the Baskervills with Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce. You know, I agree with you that this b&w is the best Hounds.... The haunting atmosphere of the black and white movies increases the drama of the plot. Rathbone and Bruce remain my favorite Holmes and Watson team.

Lionel Atwill, as Dr. Mortimer, and John Carradine, as Barramen, made this movie even more sinister. I suppose I'll always associate Lionel Atwill with the Frankenstein movies. Wendy Barrie and Richard Green two more old time stars had rolls in the movie

The ending of the movie did show that Beryl Stapleton and Sir Henry Baskerville were to be married. However, this was a departure from Doyle's ending. Conan Doyle's Beryl Stapleton was maried to villian Stapleton.

Bill H.

Yes Bill, you found the type of web link I failed to find the other day. It seems to answer the question of who played Lord Peter in the PBS series.

I will look at some of the San Antonio and Austin "Half Priced Books: stores for a copy of the Illustrated Sherlock Holmes Treasury that you mentioned in message #191. "Half Price" is a used book store chain with many oulets in San Antonio, Austin, and other Texas cities. They have a wonderfully large but uncataloged stock at low prices. Unfortunately finding a particular title is difficult since they have no ideal if they have it in stock. Over the past 25 years I have purchesed several hundred books there including most of my WW II history library.

Harold, good luck in finding "The Illustrated Sherlock Holmes Treasury"

Bill H

Harold, don't forget to let your fingers do the walking right here on the net. Half-price Bookstore is available and I think you can search for a specific location, not sure about that.

I saw a new movie with the title of "The Spiral Staircase" so turned to that channel. This a Mary Roberts Rinehart title and the original movie is in B&W with Dorothy MacGuire and Lew Ayers. What a disappointment the new one was! Very poorly done with too many characters and a real change in the story. And the deaf lady was played by a ditz! We turned it off after the first 20 minutes. If anyone gets a chance to see the original or has already seen it, its a scary and well done movie. The lighting is outstanding!

Ann, Yes, I did see the original Spiral Staircase. I thought of it as being one of the most suspenseful movies I ever watched. But, you know, this again points up the dramatic effect of black and white movie photography. The same lighting effect can be said of movies like "Rebecca" and the old time Sherlock Holmes movies. I didn't tune in the one you just mentioned so I suppose I didn't miss anything. I have often been disappointed in remakes of old time movies.

I previously explained I liked "The Nine Taylors" best of all the Lord Peter Wimsey stories. I wasn't surprised when it was given this review on the Classic D V D web.

"Dorothy L. Sayers’ book The Nine Tailors stands as one of the greatest mystery novels of the 20th Century. Featuring her legendary sleuth, Lord Peter Wimsey, the story is a puzzle of increasingly surprising twists and turns including a murder, the solution to which is one of the most unexpected in the genre."

I'm going to have to read this book once more.

Bill H

Although he wasn't a detective, and even though he did solve some cases, there was a program on Public Television at one time that I thought was one of the funniest I had ever seen. It was all about a British judge, and the name of the program was "Rumpole of the Bailey." The man who played the part of Rumpole was priceless, I don't think anyone else ever could do as well. Rumpole, with his continuous mutterings under the breath, and his penchant for mediocre wine (Thames---1990's) gave my late husband many hours of delight. He called his wife "She Who Must Be Obeyed." Does anyone else remember this program, and Leo Kern?

Lorrie

Yes Lorrie I remember Rumpole!! Those were good shows. I miss the Mystery Series on PBS as they were in the past. I saw all these shows for years. I do love the old black and whites and I see them on Turner Classics occasionally. (when he refrains froom colorizing them) and I just saw the old original Suspicion with Joan Fountain and remember that she made that and then Rebbecca about the same time. I think it was very scary to me as a very young girl as were several other of the old mystery-terrror movies. Now days they throw a lot of blood and gore around on a terrible story and call it a Scary movie. Ha! It is just messy and sickening. faith

Yes Lorrie, I remember Leo Kern and greatly enjoyed his role as the rather dowdy British attorney who very often outsmarted everyone, including his wife. A very funny British sitcom by one of those extra special Brit actors who really know how to capture an audience. I believe Leo passed away last year. Losalbern

I thought the latest PBS mystery series was good. It featured a British Detective Superintendent (I think that's right) Foyle, in a series set during WWII. The high feeling against Germans, the barriers imposed by the Official Secrets Act, the fears and the courage of the times all added to the interest of the stories...Babi

Oh, Lorrie, that program was priceless. I had so many good laughs watching Rumpole and his court room antics. I wish PBS would bring back some of the older programs. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the PBS shows are as good now.

BaBi, I saw the PB S program you just mentioned. One of the supporting actors was Edward Fox, who was Foyle's superior officer. I always like watching a performance by Fox with that cliped way of talking and precise British manners. Edward Fox played in such movies as "Edward and Mrs. Simpson and SSgt. Dusty Miller in Force 10 from Navorone. He was the demolition expert in that movie.

Bill H

I also enjoyed Rumpole on PBS. Can't imagine any other actor playing that part.

Funny I always thought that was the Circular Staircase. It was the first Rinehart book I read and it scared me silly. It was a book I checked out at the library in summer. My parents took my two younger brothers to visit our grandmother and I begged to stay at home and read. They left after lunch and I found a comfy place and started to read. It was such an intense mystery as I recall and I was caught up in the story. All of a sudden I realized it was going on toward dusk and I was alone in the house, all the windows and doors unlatched. I was so spooked I put the book aside and visited our next door neighbors until my parents arrived. It was only then I had the courage to finish it.

Looking through my books I came across a 3 book collection of the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. I recall my pleasure in reading them and think I will find a comfy spot tomorrow when a snow/mix is expected and just enjoy...anna

Found this in the USA Today on Tuesday. Sounds like it might be something several of you would enjoy.

www.bakerstreet221b.de

All of Conan Doyle's originial tales of detection, along with collections of the elegant illustrations that have accompanied these stories over the years...

When you get to the site there will be a picture of a room, just click on most any object and it will take you to a quotation with an illustration. Click on the illustration and you'll go to a list of the Holmes stories and it's easy from there. Kind of a mystery to navigate at first... the illustrations are within the works! Good site, I think.

Enjoy! Lou

Lou2 thank you for that great web site. As you said, everyone of the Sherlock Holmes stories are there and can be read right on line. I book marked this. Now if I'm at the computer and just want to read a paragraph or two of one of the Holmes tales and see the illustrations without going to the book I just bring the site up. I lighten the illustrations by dragging them off the page and brighten them up. Thanks again.

Bill H

You are most welcome, Bill, so glad you found the site and are enjoying it!! Wouldn't it be great if we could find Mary Roberts Rinehart's stuff on the web, also? I don't remember reading her and have been so curious about her books... I found them at out of print dealers at BandN, but would love to find them online.

Lou

BILL, what an incredible memory you have. Force 10 from Navarone came out ages ago, and all I can remember about it was a cave, big guns, and that I enjoyed it. You remember who played a secondary role in it? Wow!

Lou, sounds like fun. I'll check that website as soon as I get thru' on SN. ...Babi

Babi, Some of the cast of "Force 10 from Navarone" are as follows: Robert Shaw, Harrison Ford, Barbara Bach, Edward Fox, Franco Nero...

Now much and all as I would like to take credit for having an incredible memory, I have to say that I got this information from the Internet Movie Data Base. This is a terrific web site for searching for your favorite stars and movies. Here's a link to that web site, You might want to Bookmark this web it will come in handy.

IMBb

Bill H

OH, dear me, I stand corrected! "The Spiral Staircase" is the movie with Dorothy McGuire and (another correction, not Lew Ayres) George Brent. I don't believe the Rinehart novel is related since the author of the story and movie is another person.

And, especially for Anna and Lou2, here is Mary Roberts Rinehart's book, "The Circular Staircase" in its entirety. The Circular Staircase

Thanks Ann. I for one will read The Circular Staircase on line. some days it is easier to read on the monitor than on a book page. Still must limit time of reading though even though the cataract surgery was a successful implant and all. The other eye has a growing cataract and makes the focus of my eyes the main problem now. faith

Faith - had surgery on R/eye almost 2 weeks ago and have the same problem of balance - L/eye's turn next Monday, so the balance will improve. Artemt

Lou2 -- What an interesting site you gave us for Sherlock Holmes. I'm going to enjoy browsing there. And I hope my library has some of the Basil Rathbone videos.

Spiral Staircase is a Dore Schary production. That name sounds familiar, but I don't know why. The movie is based on the novel Some must watch by Ethel Lina White. Funny, how we sometimes get really good films out of obscure books.

pedln, not Dore Schary's movie, but was directed by Robert Siodmak. Here's a good site for reading reviews about it. Spiral Staircase review and another Better review and synopsis

I agree with Pedlin that Lou2 gave us an interesting Sherlock Holmes site.So if it's OK with Lou, I'll post a clickable to it just in case some Sherlock fans haven't visited it yet.

Home of Sherlock Holmes

Thanks again Lou2.

Bill H

I agree that is an awesome site. Thank you Lou2 for it; thank you Bill for the link. But I wonder about the two chairs in the picture on the home page; are they Victorian? Somehow they come across to me as more, early 20th century, perhaps as late as the 20's. Picky, picky, picky!

Ann I cant decide to thank you or be put out with your information regarding the Rinehart site. I started reading The Circular Staircase and remembered vividly my feelings from years and years ago when I first read it.. I have bookmarked it and will go back some evening when sleep wont come.OR perhaps I should choose a bright, sunny day so I dont become spooked ...I think though I will thank you for as much as it spooked me then I have remembered it fondly as a really good mystery. SO THANKS ....anna

I have added the Sherlock Holmes site and the Movie site...when will I have time to write or do household chores...? The writing I will have to do since I cannot not do it but the household chores? I have long ago decided no one will remember me as "A GOOD HOUSEKEEPER" so I will just let the dust kittens lie ...anna

Any Sherlock Fans should see that site. What a treat, the music is wonderful and whole site fulfilling to those of us who love Sherlock mysteries. Thanks, Mr Bill.

Your welcome, Anna. It has become overwhelming in here with all these wonderful links to read. I will be here again all day!

The interest shown here in the Sherlock Holmes stories has caused me to believe one of the stories would make for a book discussion. The book would not have to be purchased because we could read the story on line from the link Lou2 gave us. While we read we could glance at the illustrations also found on that site.

If anyone is interested please let me know either in the WELCOME CENTER or the LIBRARY

Bill H

Bill, Thanks for making the Holmes site clickable... wish I knew how to do that!! I would enjoy reading and discussing any of those books. Just name the date and I'll be there!!

I'm sorry, I didn't take notes and can't remember (boy, do my synapses get me in trouble!!) who posted the link to the Rinehart book but I can hardly wait to read!! Thanks so much!

Lou

Lou2, I didn't take notes either. I'm not sure who posted the link to the Rinehart book It may of been Ann Alden. How did you find the Home of Sherlock Homes site.?

Perhaps more readers will be interested in reading some of these books

Bill H

Lou2

Yes it was Ann Alden who post Rinehart. If you need it again here it is.

Rincirc.

Ginger

Ginger, Hi. Thanks for creating that clickable again. I didn't save it when Ann put it up. I did this time. Isn't this great. We can read these right on line. How about the rest of Rinehart?

Bill H

Bill

You are Welcome.

Bill, the Holmes site was in the USA Today... I love their book stuff, on Tues and then again on Thurs... Sounded like something this discussion would enjoy. Glad I guessed right.

Lou

Lou2, thanks for the USA Today tip.

Bill H

Well, the Curious Minds trolley (the one Pat W built for us) is pulling back into the home station. I hope you enjoyed your two week trip into old time detective lore land. I enjoyed your company very much, and from reading your posts I remember stories by those authors that I had forgotten about. I learned even more from those incredible links you gave us. Thank you so much for participating in the discussion. And, of course, thanks for the memories.
Nellie will be your trolley operator for the next two weeks. I'm sure her subject will interest all the readers.
Please be careful when exiting the trolley. The payment might be slippery from all the snow and sleet we had.

Bill H

This has been a wonderful two week discussion. Thanks to all and thanks especially to Bill. Faith

Thanks, Bill. It has been a lovely nostalgic look back. ...Babi

Well, I don't know where Nellie is going but I hope to be on board the trolley again when it leaves the station. Meanwhile, I am into "Abraham" discussion. Thanks so much, Bill. This has really been a lot of fun. And, thanks for all those interesting site links to everyone. See ya'll later!

This has been very, very pleasant, Bill! a job well done, and now a hearty welcome to our Nellie, who has another topic to talk about!

Lorrie

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion

Topic Source Me and a Book

Click on the link and let's talk it over.

Questions to consider:

In what ways have books affected your life?
Do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed in the article?

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Nellie Vrolyk

It was a wonderful trip back in time for me and I loved the ride and my fellow passengers....if anyone wants to do a Sherlock Holmes I would love to participate in the discussion....Thanks again..anna

Books,

Unfortunately, there were no public Librarys where I lived (Blue Collar area) the city wasn't going to waste it's money on clods and kids of clods who would grow up to man factorry machines or work in steel mills. What did those types need with books.

There was the School Library but one was restricted to one's age level never mind if one could read years ahead of his/her age level.

I had more than one book taken out of my hands because it was for students that were older than I was. I tried proving that I could read and understand the book but that just bumped into the "Rules."

I was in High School before I was near a good Public Library and finally was able to catch up.

I love books, always have, always will. I passed that love on the my Daughter and she is trying to instill it in her Children.

Tiger Tom

Wonderful job, Bill, it's been so fun and I've learned a great deal too, well done!! I've really enjoyed this one.

Thanks to all of you who make Curious Minds work, this is a great area to come to.

ginny

Tiger Tom, your post made a lump come up in my throat, for both of us. Heck, for any of us that bumped up against "the rules", most of which were mean spirited, full of unintended consequences, and just plain wrong for young readers of any age.

My home had no books except The Bible and a few other religious offerings. I was nearly 12 years old before I discovered Mr Carnegie's wonderful gift to people living in the United States. That was the good news. The bad news was a librarian with a thin line where her lips should have been and zillions of rules about what I could read, and that I could only check out two books at a time (and, no, I couldn't run outdoors and read them and bring them back in to trade for two more). I learned to hide books on my person so I could increase my "take", but I had to be careful when I brought those back since they weren't "checked out".

Books brought the world to me, then, and still does to this day.

Howzat

Howzat,

Aren't Books wonderful!

I had an odd experience with one teacher: She was going to have one of the "Educational" Films shown. I asked if I could stay in the school room and read instead. She got Furious. She finally told me to go ahead and stay in the room and read.

Now, I would have thought she would be delighted at a Student who WANTED to read instead of looking at films. I guess not.

BTW she gave a test on the film. She took delight in annoucing to the class that I had failed the test. Which I doubt, because I had read a fair amount on the subject and I thought I knew most of the answers.

Tiger Tom

We must have had the same librarian. I was allowed to walk to the library each day and get TWO BOOKS from the chilren's section. Heavens I outgrew that by the time I was 6 ...but "THE RULES" had to be adhered to!

Later in the hot summer months when I was 12 I was allowed to check out SIX books in the ADULT section. I did this each day , walking at least 2-3 miles each way and each day I read all six books. It was HEAVENLY...of course one of my 7th grade teachers felt I was reading very adult books when she found I had read REBECCA....would they be offended by today's books?

anna

My children have always been readers, I am not sure they could have escaped since thier mother had a book in her hand all the time. And if I didnt have a book handy a cereal box would do, a phone book with the most interesting names ie Fairy Prince, Will Peek etc and of course always the dictionary.

My youngest tutored graduating seniors at college from the time she started as a freshman. The college paid her but it was a revelation to find seniors with such a dismal appreciation of language. How did that happen?

Thank goodness my grandchildren from 9-2 LOVE BOOKS.......they love the written word not just the pictures for they understand it is saying something. I am so pleased they are articulate and appreciate reading.

As an only girl in a family of 5 boys reading was my way as the author said to go where I wanted to go, to travel back in time, or forward, to leave the chair in my room and visit foreign lands and meet different people. As she said you could meet the author and not be concerned as to their color, education, looks, or any or the hundred things we judge people by...It is freedom of the best kind....anna

My experience was different than tom and howzat. Our public library at Tahoe city was the front room of the librarians house for a long time, then it was a room in the so called community center. The only public building we had in the 30's and 40's. We also had a small school library. The public library had new books delivered by the county ever couple of months and old ones picked up. That was because of space. We were allowed to take out four books at a time and I did that as did my sister and brother so our house was full of books. Some we all read as fast as we could some we kept for days and my mother had my older sister pick out books for her too. The librarian also let us sit on her sofa and read all afternoon if we wanted too. I was never denied the right to read any book. My mother did suggest to me that certain books would contain material I would not understand but I just would ask my sis or (skip it if it was really obscure.) I was reading everything my mom and older sis read by the time I was ten. Some books they discussed so animatedly I want in on it but I couldnt finish the book such as Anthony Adverse. I tried several times right into my late teens and never did finish that book.

The author of Me and a Book had a different reason she gave for finding herself in books but her experience's of the books were much like mine. faith

Hello everyone! Sorry I'm late to my own discussion, but I got busy doing other things and this is the first chance I've gotten to come online and visit with you.

I guess they must make those rule keeping librarians in some special factory because I have run into a few of them when I was a child also. I think that by the time I was considered old enough to be allowed into the adult section of the library, I had read every book suitable for my age in the children's library twice over. I even read some of what I called 'the baby books'.

It was the Andrew Lang Fairy books that I liked best. I've always been one for the fantastic. I love to go to places that have never been and never will be; the places that exist only in the imagination of the author and in my imagination as I read.

Nice posts!

I guess I was about eight years of age when my family moved to a neighboring city duirng the Great Depression because of a selling job there. Our apartment was in the downtown area so that there were not too many kids my age to play with and that left me with time on my hands. My older sister offered me the use of her library card since for some reason I couldn't get my own and I soon learned that that the main branch of the Library was just a mile or so away. The librarian became quite accustomed to seeing me come in and checking out a book from the children's section. She knew of course that my name was not Cleora but rules or not, I was allowed to have free access to the book stacks. Before long I was checking out a book a day, reading most of the afternoon and night until I was hustled off to bed then completing it the next day and ready for another trip to the Library. That went on for over a year and by that time I was taking out adult reading. Mostly William McCleod Raine's cowboy stories til I read them all and then branched out into Mark Twain and other adventure story writers. The adult books took longer to read but I hung in there. My librarian didn't stand on ceremony. There were times when she would advise me that my selected book was not the greatest and recommended another one. We got to be quite friendly! Just another rag tag little kid who loved to read. Losalbern

I wonder if I am the only one who feels this way? I get easily frustrated, listless, bored; then I find something to read and all is right again.

I have been reading since I was three, a total of forty nine years of traveling through mankind's imagination and into great stories of the past and greater lives. Most of what I know came from books and most of what I've spent went to books! I have five bulging bookcases and cannot bring myself to let one go without a great struggle.

I had access to a small neighborhood library where I needed to go only a few houses down and to the left, to enter a quiet hushed room with another room for adults. By the time I was eight, a fact my mother told numerous acquaintances, I had read all of the children and teenage offerings and was making headway with the adult books. The librarian had called my mother to see if she wanted me restricted or guided in my reading. My mother told her no. That I was to be given free rein. I have never looked back!

I also had the depressing issue, (I never learned!); of reading my lit books as soon as I received them and then never paying attention in class as the poor readers struggled though the words. My parents tried to arrange for another activity during reading class, but at that time in the fifties, it was wholesale participation no matter what level you read on.

My daughter also shared my love of books. Where I tended to the "how tos" and travel diaries, she preferred science fiction. When she arrived at the magical age of eight, one of her school tests revealed her vocabulary was college level, (due to her reading habits); and she was always complaining about having to find "smaller and smaller" words when talking to her friends!

Angelface,

That is one of the problems with reading and being able to read well. One developes a vocabulary in advance of one's age. The other kids tend to either avoid a person with a large vocabulary or tease them about it.

I was a bit advanced in reading for my age too. Also, I could read fairly fast. Caused a problem for me when it was my turn to get up and read in front of the class: My eyes would be a page ahead of my mouth. So, I kept stumbling as I would get tied up with what my eyes were reading and I would forget what my mouth was supposed to be saying. The teacher thought I had reading problems and was slow in reading. So, she wouldn't call on me to read. Which was all right with me as I hated getting up in front of the class to read. Teacher never believed me when I told I could read well.

Tiger Tom

My better half just read this article to me while I am here at the computer:

Instructions for installing child safety sets in cars are written in language too difficult for many adults to understand, researchers say. Such manuals are written at a 10th grade reading level on average, according to a new study. While data suggests that nearly a quarter of US adults read at or below a 5th grade level and at least 25% read at about an 8th grade level.

Interesting????

Lou

My first memory of a book was something called "The Little Red Hen"....I adored that book and carried it everywhere with me.....next memories are of sitting on grandmothers lap being read to....Uncle Wiggley and Peter Rabbit were my favorites then.....then I graduated to Little Women and Uncle Tom's Cabin.....my grandmother was the great influence in my life....I lived with her for some years ....I got a library card as soon as I was eligilbe for one and my great love affair with library's and books continues to this day....I am my happiest surrounded by books both read and unread.......Now my favorite thing to do is read the N.Y. Times Book review....select what I think I might like and place a hold on those items to my public library through my computer.......isn't life wonderful?

Tiger Tom, I too had problems jumping ahead while I was reading aloud. I have never heard of another with that problem before now! Its nice to know I wasn't an anomaly after all!

My problem was that I would just slow and then gradually stop reading aloud and not even realize it! The other issue was when reading, I totally became immersed in that particular book. I have had people hit me, yell in my ear and other things and unless it was really exerted, I would never hear and go on reading! That was a serious issue to my parents at the time and they asked the family doctor. His advice was to restrict my reading and make me go outside and play sports. I'm afraid it didn't take!

I never thought about Marie being teased before. She had never said more then that excerpt of finding smaller and smaller words for her friends. She was in a large group of young girls who swam at the pool and also played softball and she had boyfriends later on so I just never thought about it, she seemed so average in that respect. I wonder if she just never mentioned it as she knew how proud I was of her reading?

Lou2; I read an article some years ago that our newspapers and magazines are written with a fifth grade reader in mind, I see it hasn't gotten any better, but what can you expect with a people whose largest grossing publications are the National Inquirer and People Magazine?!

TigerLily, my first book was actually a small book of Greek and Roman fables and my second and third were A Cat in the Hat and Another by the same author who started with a boy watching a fly being swallowed by a frog and the frog being swallowed by something else and so on. I know there were others as my parents had an extensive children's library for their three children, but those are the earliest three that I remember.

Because of books I minored in history in college and have been enthralled by European diplomatic history from the sixteenth through nineteenth centuries. Lately I have been reading two different types together.

On one hand I am reading diaries of people doing extraordinary things such as women who traveled alone in the far east in the eighteenth century and a number of books advocating the small house using rooms as multipurpose units. Next time it might be something further out in space or inside the earth. I'm not an a purist about books as long as they have a hook and excellent or provoking material.

I agree with you!!!!!!! The printed word just cant be replaced with visual things ie TV ...movies, cartoons etc...I have often been surprised at the extent of my vocabulary when talking with people I know to be highly educated and in responsible jobs. These are younger than myself and sometimes I have to bite my tongue so I wont ask "You dont know what that means?"

Movies and TV dont help either. Being hearing impaired I rely on closed caption to understand the language being used. How many times have I been shocked or momentarily wrinkled my brow thinking DONT THEY KNOW HOW TO SPELL? Or what are they talking about?

I have a great deal of sympathy for people who dont read or cant read or wont read. They are missing so much. And with reading it can be a solitary joy or one as we do here, a great discussion.

anna

I have to add a postscript. Today among my own friends I have gradually become less enthusiastic. I used to come to every gathering with all these new ideas and opinions on what I had read. Then I noticed smiles and some would say here she goes again. I soon realized that I was the only one interested and no longer spoke of what I was reading.

I had one friend tell me that most were content with family and their jobs and careers and just did not have the time or energy for other matters. I thought that was very telling and particularly sad, but of course I never said so.

Now it is the same with my photography. I tend to go alone with the camera and take photos and then go later with the group. I have people tell me that I am too passonate and intense and others tell me I need to get off the computer and come out and join the real world.They even had a mini intervention last year and took me out to dinner and drinks. Sounds an awful lot like that doctor's advice to me!

Angelface, if you are reading travel diaries written by ladies of the 19th century, I'm sure your reading has included Isabella Bird? If not, look her up. Her writings are a prime example of why libraries should not "get rid" of all the "old" books, although I do agree that you can't keep everything.

Annafair, I too use the closed captioning feature when I watch television. Sometimes people talk so fast the captioning can't keep up or lags far behind (is it done by a person? by a computer software program that recognizes words spoken?). I think the misspelling comes from "sounds like" situations.

Do you notice that people who read also know, geographically, where in the world things are? Also, they take the time to write their posts in complete sentences?

Howzat

Please search your memories for an answer to this inquiry. As part of my childhood reading, I ran across a series of books that dealt with a young American Indian boy of perhaps 8-10 years of age and the wonderous age of training he went through from some of the more proficient male members of his tribe, in the arts of hunting, fishing, tracking, trapping small game,etc., clear up until he is accepted into the tribal lore as a self sustaining 'brave'. Each story described the young boy growing up in a totally different Indian nation or Tribe. And each story emphasized how different one Tribe was from the other. A different set of tribal lore and even a different view of tribal values. There must have been at least ten of these books, perhaps more. Two things stand out in my memory. First, was this one tribe who placed great honor amongst its braves feats when stealing horses from a neighboring tribe. This was a big deal! Another was "counting coup" in battle with another tribe. That demanded great bravery when a tribe member fastened a stake to his wrist and then pounded the stake in the ground at the battle site so that he was there to stay at all costs and fighting with just one hand at that! If he survived, he was awarded great honors by the tribe's chief, their version or equivilent of our medal of honor. These were fascinating books for young, pre-teen kids, well written and apparently well researched. I can't remember who wrote them or their titles. Years ago I tried to find some for my young readers and came up empty. Does this ring a bell for any of you voracious readers? Losalbern

Oh Angelface, don't let anyone intervene with your chosen path in life. Sounds most fascinating. And we meet the neatest people thru our computers. It has widened my life.

TVOntario has a booktalk show called "Imprint". And the other night the host interviewed two people as to what they thought of the future of reading. A man who is in the reviewing business said he life has changed so much that his reading time has lessened. He talked about the ease of watching tv vs reading and making mind pictures, etc.

I love to read. Right now I am rereading "The Hours". A whole different take on it than when it came out 10+ years ago. Hard to find people who want to listen to your thoughts/reactions to reading.

~Marj

Losalbern, the books you describe don't sound familiar to me. They do sound interesting to me.

Angel, I'm also addicted to books and to reading in general. I read anything and everything that has words on it.

Tiger Tom, it is interesting that children who read tend to develop faster than ones who don't. I was another one who was reading well above my age level at an early age.

Lou, I find it rather sad that there are so many people who can barely read.

I wonder if those who are good readers were born that way? That they have some extra connections in their brains which allow them to be good readers and which, in a way, cause their reading addiction?

Tigerliley, I for one would much rather read a book than watch a TV show or a movie.

Annafair, good thoughts.

Hello Howzat!

Nice posts everyone.

My very first reading experiences were in another language. I loved Maarten Toonder's Tom Poes -still do. Tom Poes can be translated as Tom Cat and he was a small white cat who had all sorts of science fiction type adventures with his friend, the bumbling, bearlike Heer Bommel (Sir Bommel) and the stories of Jules Verne caught my interest early because my mother loved those and passed that love on to me.

Hello Marj. I see you were writing your post at the same time I was.

I have thought of that but often the person speaking is using a script ..you would think the person? the machine? would be able to do better than it does. When it is spontaneous I can understand ..but I really think whatever they are using and I DO HOPE IT IS NOT HUMAN but a machine that spells what it thinks it is hearing, should know how to spell certain words. If it were just one or two letters adjacent to each other I could understand but some are so far afield I watch with incredulous eyes...anna

Since I have read by candlelight, flashlight, moonlight and kerosene lamp as well as electical light I wonder what do people who dont read do when there is no TV, VCR,DVD etc?

I guess you could say I AM ADDICTED to reading but I dont want someone to come up with an answer to my addiction. I BLESS it for it has served me so well. My home is full of books, bookcases, stacks of books, the floor, the table, my computer desk and my regular desk. I am often reading several at a time. I too have found it difficult to give them up ..but I saved all the books my children read and now they have them for my grandchildren .... Also since they all have homes I am always giving them my books (to keep) and they take them gladly.

Ah well today I dont have time to read because I have watercolor class on Tues and need to at least start a painting...You all have a great day wherever you are...and Angel Shakespeare said it best "THIS ABOVE ALL TO THINE OWNSELF BE TRUE!" anna

sometimes I even feel a little "panic" that I don't have as many years left as I would like to read all the good books I want to read!!! Then I just smile and continue reading... Like most of the rest of you I read ANYTHING.......as long as it peaks my interest.....I no longer continue reading a book if I don't like it......I don't care what the reviews say or anyone else for that matter.......

Reading,

Since this discussion started I tried to remember when I first started reading and realized that I could not remember a timeI couldn't read.

As far back as I can go, before the First grade, I could read. I am not sure how I picked it up but I was reading before I started school.

I assumed everyone could read so it came a somewhat of a shock when I found out that very few could read at a young age and now in this day and age to read that the average person reads at a fifth grade level, if that.

Sad, they are missing so much.

Tiger Tom

Bookplates,

There a number of good sites on Bookplates. One, Antioch Bookplates, has some interesting Bookplates at a reasonable price.

I buy about two hundred at a time.

Tiger Tom

When I was very small my mother always told me stories--never reading them, but after I started school that part of my life gradually phased out and our well stocked school library took its place. All our elementary grades had a "library period" and we were encouraged to read. In the summer I rode the bus once a week to our nearby town and walked several blocks from the bus stop to check out books from the "Children's Section". It cost a nickle to ride the bus in those days. Reading is also an addiction for me--a very good one.

Marj, we've discussed The Hours and Mrs. Dalloway together here in the past. I'm sorry you could not have been with us. Your thought is the reason we started the Books & Lit, it IS hard to find somebody to talk about a book with, but you've got us! That's why we're here. Unfortunately we have already done The Hours. If you like you can post to some of the things which you'd like to say about it in the Fiction discussion, there may be enough of us left with enough memory of it to discuss it?

Nellie what a fascinating article and title, really one of the best there are so many things in it TO discuss, what books mean to us and meant, how to get children to read, and the link business, I think that's one of my personal rants, I'd like to say a few things on some.

Like many of you all, I raised children (boys) who love to read. Some of the tricks some cite which worked for me were allowing them to read themselves to sleep or take a book to bed as if it were a treat, allowing them to read over food (a big no no now apparently but it works) and always seeing us with a nose in a book, having books in the house and seeing parents read. I think it's the greatest gift you can give a child.

The business about hyperlinks and how the internet will change reading is a stunner!! Just a stunner! Really struck a chord with me, one of my personal rants at the moment:

The author says:

As a writer, I don't want to turn that kind of control over to you. I've gone to a lot of effort to think my way through an issue, and to organize my ideas in as logical and persuasive a fashion as I can. If you're going to read my writing at all, I want to maximize the chance that you will understand what I am saying. (As a teacher, I have already had the disheartening experience of reading myself in translation.)

I think hypertext links (URLS) are a blessing when used correctly and a curse when they aren't. They are NOT substitutes for enlightened conversation or thought about anything.

When used correctly, and by that I mean as part of a conversation as example or source for more learning, and attributed to the source, not posted in altered form to read what the person submitting wants them to read and the author left off, they can be an enormous benefit to ANYbody or any discussion. When used abusively they are a horror,

And then, as if those things weren't bad enough, you have the real problem of credibility.

Anybody who wants to, can and does put up a website with the most appalling knowledge, or lack of it or just plain ignorance. Just plain IGNORANCE personified. Usually these sites are very slick and professional looking, lots of wowza illustrations, etc., that makes no difference to the MATERIAL they contain.

The well meaning person, coming by the site on google (I wonder how many people know that if they post a passage from somebody's website google will pick it up and spit out the source immediately? It's been the death knell to plagiarism in universities, I can tell you that) thinks it's real and cheerfully helps spread the BS to others as FACT.

And so this misinformation, some of it just appalling, is spread as "gospel," and worse, whole groups of people then form their own opinions on it, it's a chain of horror, a chain of deliberate misinformation, oh!

I don't know what can be done about it except to check carefully the provenance of the link you submit, to see IF, in fact, the person writing it has any credentials at all except he felt moved by the moon to make statements. Of course it's always easy to check HIS sources, too, with google, too. It's a new conundrum but one in which a person can either do a world of good or a world of ignorance, just by hitting the "copy shortcut" choice.

Nellie, I commend you for a marvelous thought provoking article, I love it. Am I the only one the misuse of hperlinked material drives nuts?

ginny

I sitting here chuckling at your "rant" about "links". Well said, my dear, and right on the money.

I would have thought that "educated" people who read "anything with words printed on it" (and also "read" people and situations and put those into words) would be well aware of the "misuse" of words to flim flam others in order to further a "cause" of some sort.

Not so.

My grandmother Adams gave me the perfect question to ask myself about any proposal, so called fact, or opinion, "What axe is being ground here?"

I mourn as you do the amount of "fake" and even "dangerous" information lying like quicksand on web sites, luring the innocent to their doom.

Howzat

Annafair, I've asked that same question about people who don't read in the same way that we do, and I've never come up with an answer.

What would you do if there were no books available to read?

Tigerliley, I feel that same panic at times when I think of how many books there are that I still want to read, and all the books that I want to revisit. I'll have to live a long time.

Tiger Tom, I can't remember when or how I learned to read. I think I was born knowing how to read.

Hello FlaJean!

Ginny, my parents allowed my brothers and me to read while eating. I remember sitting around the table, all of us with a book, and when we found a particularly good piece in the book we were reading we would read it aloud to share it with the others.

Ah, those hyperlinks and finding credible sites that add to the topic under discussion. Personally I don't like linking that much because it can be difficult to know if the information given is credible. I suppose we have to think of every person who publishes information on a web site as an Unreliable Narrator. And as readers we need to become very discriminating readers when it comes to information that is presented on the web.

One's motto should be: Just because you can read it does not make it true.

Nice posts everyone!

Such good posts here. They bring so many things to mind.

Tom, I've always felt family/parental influence was the most important thing in fostering a love of reading. Of course my brother and I read... we saw our parents reading all the time. I, too, cannot really remember when I started reading, but I do know I was reading beyond my level in the first grade.

The posts about misinformation on the Net are definitely a word to the wise. Yet, I can remember my Dad pointing out to me that just because someone wrote it in a book didn't mean it was right or true. People have been just as willing to share their ignorance with us in book form as they have on the net.

Who was it wrote the post about their Grandmother's wise advice? My father had a similar one for use in listening to anyone's arguments (or advertising). It was: "Listen to what is actually said, now what you thought they said." How many times have you heard "aids in the relief of", and thought the ad was promising relief? It wasn't. ...Babi

And I am just as guilty as the next one. We all are as we carry our own bias with us, influencing most of what we see, hear and do during our day. Everyone has an axe to grind was a homily that I grew up with and was one of the main objectives of my father's teaching. In later years, I often wondered about the insistence, but that's another story.

One of his main objectives was to make us as pragmatic as possible. He and my mother never allowed books at the table unless it was in reference to a point. They believed in active all inclusive family discussions that ranged from A to Z. Nothing was seen as sacred or unable to be a family topic. I ran into trouble with this when I had my own daughter. Raising a child in the seventies as a single mother, you needed to balance the truth of the information with the age and attributes of the child.

I remember her teacher calling to request an interview in her earliest school days. It seems my daughter had become a fount of useful true knowledge in the schoolyard that she was rather proud of. It became her mission to educate and some of her "pupils" parents were upset! I had to tell her that while "she" knew the truth and it was correct, that not all wished their children to know the truth and that we had to respect that. I've often wondered what she thought about that.

About bias, all of our news is permeated with it. Our magazines, our computers and any way to spread a particular cause or story will be utilitized. Another issue to think about is most people believe something is true only if it coincides with what they already believe or suspect. We have our own bias and we will accept a source or not, only if it resonates with our own beliefs and ideals.

Each person believes they alone see the truth and folly in our lives and they each believe that if only everyone could see as they do, all would be well. Also that only a select educated few see life as it is, as they do.

EACH PERSON BELIEVES THAT!

Can we all be right? And if not, who is?

Babi,

In my life I never saw my Father read a book or even pick one up. I was in my Teen's before I saw my mother read a book and it was a Novel. She read the odd book every six months or so for a few years.

Discussion at the Dinner Table. Tried that once and was told to shut up and not to speak up at the dinner table again.

Tiger Tom

I taught myself to read before I started school and from age 7 was reading a mixture of adult and childrens books. The local librarians after quizzing my mum would happily issue adult books to me. The first adult book I read was a biography "Reach for the sky" about Douglas Bader the British air ace and famous escapee from Colditz Castle. My parents were not readers but I sought out books myself and family and friends found that by my 5th birthday books were the most welcome gift they could give me. I read as much as I was allowed even with a torch under the bedclothes! I still love books but for about 12 years when I was working long hours and bringing up small kids I hardly had any time to read. The only things I read were work manuals and contracts!

Grace my 2yr old grandaughter has her own library card. She has definate tastes in reading and can recognise books which have authors and characters she likes.

She takes her book up to the library counter - stands on the stool they have there for little ones and hands her books and card over herself. What a joy to be able to select books at such a young age. You had to be 6 to belong to the paying library which was the only one in our area. I spent all my allowance on books! Graces books are all free. There are no fines for little ones if they want to keep the book longer than the 4 weeks allowed. Grace loves her weekly jaunt to the library.

Carolyn

This has been a fascinating discussion. I love it.

One of the first books that I remember having is "A Child's Garden of Verses," and i still have it -- with my own crayoned illustrations decorating the flyleaf. My maiden name was Evenson, and this book was always the Robertson Louison Evenson Stevenson book.

Howzat, like you and Annafair, I also use closed captioning for TV and Vidoes. I always thought they used machines for it, but someone told me it was like court reporting. My family used to tell the story about my mother, at about age 6 or 7, going to the silent movies with her little sister. They were watching "The Little Rich Girl." My aunt wasn't old enough to read, so my mother had to read the captions to her. But when she read, "I wish some rich man would come and marry me," everyone around them laughed, and she wouldn't read anymore.

Ginny, I liked your comments about reading in bed and at the table. Yes, yes. But not everyone is so lucky. Several years ago I read Reversals by Eileen Simpson (married at one time to poet John Merriman), in which she described her battle with dyslexia. She struggled through school with little understanding from her teachers, and eventually became a practicing psychologist. She said one thing she could not do, even as a mature adult, was eat and read at the same time.

But then there is the other side. I became so upset when my quicker verbal sister would challenge a point that sometimes I would stutter. Each time I would start to say something, she would interrupt with why? or can you prove it!?

To this day, she is verbally combatant and we have little to do with each other. I have no idea where she is and the odd phone calls I will occasionally receive always end with my becoming silent as we still fall into old patterns.

Its a very good idea to have a referendum at the table as long as there are rules of debate. I am surprised that I had not lost my love of discovery; it is also due to my father that I have not as he would query each of us when we did not volunteer.

Carolyn; I know there are language differences and I know what you meant as I put in my time with a "flashlight" as well. But I chuckled thinking of you trying to read in bed with a torchlight merrily burning through the sheets and blankets above your head.

Its interesting to read that we all became enamored of books in similar ways and yes I do believe you could call it an addiction, a very pleasant one. Our childhoods were enriched in that we traveled the world and beyond with books. I was able to go back into the history I came to love. To read about great men and women and the expeditions to, at the time, far off lands! What a gift to a child a book may become!

As a child in the fifties, I read a series of books about American and European statesmen, scientists and adventurers. They were bound in primary colors, no book jackets back then; and were written for a child's view. This series of books numbering about a hundred or so, were one of the first to excite and to open my mind to diverse ideals. I've never forgotten them.

Angelface, I read those books too! I remember them well. As well as some put out with the Disney characters exploring the world thru history.

Pedln, that is amazing, "She said one thing she could not do, even as a mature adult, was eat and read at the same time." I have never heard that! I have a friend still teaching LD kids, I will write her at school immediately and ask her about this thing! THANK you for that information!

Howzat, hahahaha thanks!

And Tom, look how well you turned out!! You overcame, I, too, am sorry for what you relate and the pain it must have caused but you sure turned out well!!!

As a child my mother read to me. She had been a first grade teacher so when I entered first grade I could read the daily newspaper and I made sure my children could too, the times changed, but both of my children read before school, I thought it was too important to leave to the schoolroom, no matter how bored they might be with their lessons.

My mother took me to the library as soon as I could walk, we'd walk there, quite a treat, we lived in Philadelphia in Holmesburg, so we walked everywhere. My very first library book was of horses and I will never forget a painted illustration of a horse jumping over several cars, boy you wouldn't see that today and I'm not sure you should have seen it then. The only other thing I remember about the library was that I was always seized with an uncontrollable desire to laugh loudly, and many times had to run outside to break into hysterical laughter. I was some kind of rebellious kid. Hahahahaa

When we moved to NJ we lived behind a wonderful old Community House which (am not sure) had been somebody's fine old estate, there was a wonderful library, with a second floor balcony with wrought iron and the spiral steps up to it curved into the stone walls with all sorts of bay windows where you could sit and I did for hours and read. There was a swimming pool in the basement, we lived right behind the tennis courts. Alas the library there is gone, I went specifically years ago and it's a proper library now, I wanted to see what they had done to the staircases but it was not open , some sort of community office, such a shame, but it WAS quite small.

I never read Mother Goose to my children and was shocked to find out it's a first edition, my mothers, I had no idea.

ginny

Well, Tiger Tom and Kiwi, another notion of mine shattered and scattered. Heaven only knows how it is that some turn to books and others do not. I'm just glad that one of the 'turned tos'.

That reminds me of a set of books I had as a kid. It included books like "The Turned-Intos", and "Really So Stories". (The turned-intos were butterflies and other such metamorphosing creatures.) They were very readable and enjoyable stories that were also instructive. They were passed on to a cousin when I and my brother outgrew them, but I often wished I had them when my kids were growing up.

Ginger, another interesting bit about dyslexia: I have a friend with dyslexia, who finds it very difficult to read out loud. The need to focus on what she is seeing makes it hard to do both. Hasn't kept her from reading, tho. She's interested in scads of stuff. Really tough Trivia opponent! lol ...Babi

I don't know when I began to "read while eating", but it was early on. Even today, I am unhappy when I am forced to eat "properly" at an affair with others. Between my early 40s and 50s I had a job that required constant travel, and eating "out". I always had something to read while I ate, no matter how high end the restaurant was, much to the consternation of some.

Oh, Tiger. Adults can seem to be so mean spirited. That was the scene at my house, too. Silent meals. Ghastly experience. Turns out my very shy mother was so sensitive to any sort of "argumentative discourse" or "unseemly remarks" and was thusly unable to eat, my father decided that no talking should be the rule, since in my case, as an only child until age 10, I was apt to say almost anything, causing shock and dismay in the family on both sides.

Because of my early reading and comprehension skills, I was "skipped" up to a higher grade than my age level. This turned out to not be the best idea, I was shunned for being "different".

Every where I turned, I was sent reeling back into books for relief. Thank the gods that all those lovely people spent all those hours writing books for me to escape in. Lots of times, in memoirs, you will read of how the person was channeled into their life's work by the treatment given them by their families, and for the most part this began with reading, reading, reading.

Howzat

My internet is acting up, so I will just say that I am enjoying reading all your posts.

I have to admit that I am fascinated by the postings at this site. I guess it never occurred ( never could remember if its two 'C's and one 'r' or the other way around) to me to choose reading as an escapist action. I read for the sheer pleasure of reading and time was incidental. When I found an author I liked, I tried to read everything he ever wrote. At 12 or 13 I had read all of Sinclair Lewis I could find. I grew up in an age where you could find decent "literature" in almost every magazine published in the U.S. Not classics, mind you but good interesting writing by members of the Algonquin Round Table, like Dorothy Parker with her rapier wit, Heyward Hale Broun and Robert Benchley and so many others of that age who "palled" together. This is the stuff I read with delight during High School study periods when I had real studies to do. Nor will I apologize for a misguided education. In her obituary, I learned to my chagrin that Dorothy Parker, a somewhat subdued and much older Dorothy had been teaching a night class in writing at a university not five miles from my home. Had I known, I would have been one of her older but vitally interested students. Such is fate. Losalbern

I wrote a long post and as I was ready to hit post . I hit some other key and lost the whole thing!!!!!!

At home I never read at the table but then if I had I would have missed all the lively conversation . We were six, three older brothers and two younger ones and there I was a girl. Meal times were always exciting as everyone had something to say and we all had a great wit. I remember it as a joyous time and as we aged it was something we always looked forward to. Those times we would gather and share our stories.

I really cant remember learning how to read, it seemed as if I always knew how. I read the newspapers when I was very young..Not just the comics but every thing. I dont do it anymore but I used to read a paper from front to back including the personals. I think you could I devoured the newspapers.

Since I was an only girl I read alone at night ...by moonlight if necessary, by flashlight, by kerosene lamp when I visited relatives in the country. I still have a little book light that clips to the book and once a high intensity light attached to the headboard. IT is really high intensity as one of my pillows shows. There is a hole in the pillow with burned edges where the lamp touched it one night while I was reading. I couldnt believe it when I smelled smoke it was my pillow afire. Moved the lamp after that so it touches nothing now.

There were times when my husband would come home from work and I would have dinner ready ..the family would sit down and eat while I would sit in the living room reading..I JUST COULDNT put down a good book. Still cant!

However I pass over pages with too much foul language ..or truly offensive passages. Not that I am a prude but it seems to me a lot of books add words and scenes so graphic I am turned off by them. If it is a true story that is different but not when it is fiction and the author has a choice how he/she will present a story.

Has anyone read The Five Little Pepper stories or The Boxcar stories ? We had the Harvard Classics, a set of books called My Bookhouse, any number of Children's series, science and history books. With six children and a mother in law of advanced age I dont recall my mother reading a lot while we were young. I do know after she was widowed and we had left home she read a lot then because she was always writing and telling me what she read. Whoever said magazines had great stories by good authors that was true. The Birds was a ahort story in one magazine ( whose name I no longer remember) REdbook not only published established authors but encouraged anyone to submit a story for consideration.

I dont know why I became an avid reader but I am grateful. My education has been extended by my interest in everything and the books written about them. Some books I read when I was quite young I read later as an adult and found the story line mentioned a lot of taboo subjects but written in such a way a young person would not understand ( perhaps that is not true today).

Well I think this is more than enough..i kept trying to recall what I wrote last night and lost..it was so good! LOL anna

Reading,

The first grade was an eye opener for me. BOOKS, new ones, old ones. I remember one book that had an illustration that has stayed in my mind over the years: A Rooster on a fence with a bright Red Sun behind it and a farm house to the right. Why I remember that I have no idea but it is burned in my mind.

A story too: "The Troll Under the Bridge and the Three Billy Goats" or at least I think that was the name of it.

What a world I had been introduced in to. No books around my Parents house and just a few at my Grandmothers. Since I lived with my Grandmother for some years it was at her home I somehow learned to read. But it was school that I found the heaven of Books.

Tiger Tom

I dont remember the name of the story either but it was the Three Billy Goats Gruff...My school books were beautifully illustrated that I do recall. Like the old fairy stories were illustrated. I recall The story of Beowulf, and Roland ...I also know they inspired me to lofty ideals. Interesting...anna

I contracted polio not long after the end of first grade. I was in bed a year. People read to me; then when I was strong enough to be propped up with pillows and hold a book with the one hand that finally worked, I read for myself, since I had learned to read before I was sick. That was when I began to write. I wrote little stories to amuse myself through the long, long hours of the day.

I hated the Grimms's Fairy Tales which were read to me, and very much disliked the pictures in the book. I also hated a book my aunt read to me about a crippled girl. Doctors tried to straighten her back with some sort of terrible contraption. Little did I know then that a similar thing would happen to me. I liked the Hans Christian Anderson stories. I also learned to read music at the age of 7, so did a lot of reading of that.

What I loved when I was a kid was Johnny Gruelle's books and books by Richard Halliburton. There were always books in the house where I grew up, and I read them all, children's or adult, very old-fashioned or new, including a couple books about electricity -- my uncle was an electrician. He brought me home one of the Boston morning papers, something like the New York Daily News, every night after he came home on the train, so I read that and the local one.

Conversation at the dinner table was gossip about people downtown where my aunt worked as a bookkeeper in a jewelry store, gossip about people in church, news about Boston and my hometown 35 miles north of that city, the Red Sox and Boston Braves, and politics, politics, politics.

The library was too far for me to walk to after I learned to walk with a leg brace and crutches, but people brought books and newspapers, comic books, pamphlets and magazines, etc., into the house all the time.

Mal

Mal - aha, someone else who has experienced Halliburton. My wanderlust can be attributed to the hours spent reading him.

I'll jump in with my similar thoughts. Those weekly trips to the library were the highlight of my youth. Both of my parents read all the time, so I had some good role modeling. I feel that I am addicted to books, too. I have to read everyday. When I walk in the library just to drop off some books, it is as if the browsing bin has a magnet on it and there I am, yet again, standing before it. When I retired and was looking over my financial situation I decided that I had to cut out many visits per month to the local bookstore where I would buy whatever struck my fancy. I now have become a library devotee again. I purchase one book a month from my bookstore. Before I travel, particularly to areas that won't have English books, I so carefully select the few books that will become my anchor in the new country. I find that nightly reading abroad seems to reconnect me in that strange country and relaxes me. It is my touchstone of home.

I find that using the computer requires an incredible amount of reading. I am amazed at the volume of info that is out there and the need to be a discriminating reader. One must read quickly to get through it all.

Three cheers for books! Kathy

So much of what we relate is shared. I wonder why some enterprising soul has never put it together to raise a really gifted child,(children).

I also wrote from a young age. I wrote because I had to and because it brought me attention. I was ill quite a lot and hospitalized often. I had some instances of high fevers and convulsions and my parents almost divorced over my treatment methods. My father believed in physical activities and my mother believed in nurturing. That dichotomy has haunted me most of my life. I have absorbed their voices and trying new ideas and activities can sometimes be conflicting.

Mal, I never had what happened to you to any extent. But I can dimly understand. My sister hated any attention I received and my parents almost broke up and even separated once over my treatment. I was in and out of the hospital and saw many therapists. The illness never found a name and literally burned out by my preteens leaving only the effects.

To this day, some people don't believe I have a handicap as it isn't obvious. To not be able to drive, ever; to always need to reach out with a palm before placing anything breakable on a shelf and to always be a bit blind, a bit clumsy and a bit uncoordinated has heightened a natural tendency to withdrawal and sedentary passions. To read,to write, to learn new words and ways to use them, to photograph and combine those images with words and sounds has become my identity.

My sister who had been the baby for the two years before I was born, hated any extra treatment I received. I know this because she tells me this. At age 54, she can tell you everything I did as a young child. Including the fact that evidently our father made her go out searching at night to find my lost glasses. But that's another tale altogether.

I read fantasy as a child. Greek and Roman myths, fairy tales, American and European folk tales, and always people. Ordinary and extra ordinary people who did marvelous things and people who committed unimaginable evil. If I couldn't go out into the world, I could do so between the pages of a book. An excerpt from a poem I wrote as a child reads; "Lying in a crystal bubble, watching costumed players stroll;" is fairly indicative of how I saw people in my youth.

"Lying in a crystal bubble, watching costumed players stroll."

What a delightful line! And you wrote that as a child, Angelface? Have you continued to write poetry? If so, I would love to see more of it.

I remember the "Three Little Peppers" series. I remember the "Three Billy Goats Gruff", and can clearly recall the illustration of the goats coming across a bridge, with a troll underneath. I truly believe that the best illustrations printed have been in children's books. ...Babi

Losalbern, reading everything an author wrote... I still do that. When I find a new author or an established one I haven't read yet, and I like what they have written, then I get every book they have written and enjoy the feast.

Annafair, some of the really graphic writing in some books leaves nothing to the imagination. I think something should always be left to the imagination. I don't like too much detail. There should be enough so that I know what is happening but not so much that my own imagination is left out of the loop.

Tiger Tom, I like reading your memories of reading.

Kathy, "Three cheers for books!" I second that thought wholeheartedly. Hip Hip Hurrah! And welcome to the discussion

Mal, I find it fascinating that reading led to writing stories for yourself. I didn't have any major illness as a child. Just the usual ones like measles, mumps, chicken pox, and scarlett fever -the last had the whole family quaranteed in the house until the disease ran its course through all us kids- but I also wrote stories for myself and my brothers from an early age. I found it to be as much fun writing stories as it was reading them in books.

Angel, interesting that you also became a writer in addition to being a reader.

Love reading all your posts

Hello BaBi! You posted just ahead of me almost at the same time.

That doesn't mean its good or that even another would enjoy reading that which I've written. I have a dry ironic sort of style that can become gothic if given too much reign.

I once submitted a few samples of my work to a friend who was both in the newspaper business and a published author. He said he liked my writing and felt I needed to tighten it up. I needed to curb my use of adjectives and learn to stop run on sentences. I didn't tell him that what appealed to me the most were those very qualities he wanted me to curb!

I have a small talent that is enough to give me pleasure and giving out more then a hint here and there would tarnish it and make it susceptible to other's interpretations and cynicism; and that I might not be able to bear!

Here is another one who never remembers learning to read but could read so far ahead of class in first grade that the teacher had me helping (during reading hour) two ladies from China who could not read English though they spoke it fairly well. So they were learning with we first grades and I was their tutor. The other children teased me horribly but having lots of brothers and sisters I didn't care. I learned a lot from those two ladies. I learned to giggle shyly behind my hands for one thing and it became such a habit I still do it. I also learned how much alike people are. I hope they learned to read some English.

I remember many of the books I read and of course the fairy tales were always there, but my Dad had all the Wizard of Oz books and he read them to us. Also Tarzan books and he read from these too. After I was about eight, he was gone from the family, my mother choices were more modern literature, and also she liked to read books to us about pioneers and the early history of the US. I chose the Haliburton books and would like to read The Alhambra again. I think I was very young when I read that one. faith

Books,

I read the "wind in the Willows" series when in the Third Grade; Some Tarzan books. I was given a copy of Little Men and my favorite at that time "Grimms Fairy Tales" not the harsh one but one's like the Twelve Dancing Sisters, and the Seven League Boots and other of that kind. The main character of the story would be a soldier out of the Army, down on his luck and no job and along came the opportunity to do the King a good turn and the Soldier would be rewarded in some way. I loved that book.

Today, if I walk in to a Bookstore or a Library, I get sweaty palms. I love being around books and wish I had a portion of Bill Gates fortune so I could buy all of them that caught my fancy. That is my idea of heaven, to be able to walk in to a Book store and buy, buy, buy.

Tiger Tom

Go into that dark night

Only sounds, soft crunches in the snow

Soaring into that vast black bowl, up at the gold

Lights pinned up

Pierced by black spruce

To know tranquility

Know quiet penance

Far be it from me to say I told you so...

Growing up in a household that remembered the depression very clearly, it was an event to have a book of your very own. Johnathan Persilverton Pinkerston Junior was a little Golden book that was the first one I remember owning. I mourn the fact that somewhere along the way it disappeared.

Mama was a teacher in the rural schools in Oklahoma. She taught in a one room school house with first through eighth grades. Anyone remember those schools? Because I wanted to go play in the snow one day and the lady taking care of me didn’t want me to go out, she somehow ended up in the pantry with the door closed and I played in the snow. When Mama got home and opened the pantry door and the lady flew out of the pantry and ran out the door of our house, somehow Mama had a hard time finding someone else who was willing to watch me… So, I went to school with Mama. I was exposed to all the lessons.

Sometimes my sister and I could talk Mama into driving us to the library, but usually we walked every Saturday after chores were done. That wonderful Carnegie Library!! I practically ran upstairs to the wonderful, huge children’s room and spent as long as I could talk my sister into waiting reading a mile a minute. When she insisted it was time to go, I’d take as long as possible choosing a book to take home. I always thought it was at least a mile to the library… until we walked it as adults.. 2 blocks!!

Ms. Horton had wonderful red hair and wore the greatest brightest green horn rim glasses and had a magic yellow pencil with a devise on the eraser end that she used to stamp the due date. She gently led me to harder and harder books. She is one of the reasons I’m a retired librarian.

Today we are drowning in books at our house, frustrated we can't read fast enough!! Ah, So Many Books!! So Little Time!!

Lou

Does anyone here remember Big Little books? I loved those when I was a kid.

Mal

Malryn,

Yes, I remember them. They had one corner that if you flipped them the picture in the Corner seemed to move. I too loved them and any other book that came my way.

Tiger Tom

Angelface, thank you so much for the poem. You conjure up that winter night for me, as well as the ambience of mind and spirit walking through it. I'm making myself a copy. Never mind your long sentence, adjective filled prose. Have you tried to publish your poems?!! ...Babi

Mal and Tom, you bet I remember those Big Little Books. Boy, that was a Great Depression item for certain. Our neighborhood used to read 'em and trade 'em. Great fun! Losalbern

I happpen to belong to a nonfiction book club . We read the above book by Samuel Huntington.It may give you some insight into our relationship with Saddam Hussein.

Does anyone remember Uncle Arthurs bedtime stories? Published by the Seventh Day Adventist Church in America. Huge book with photos of kids stories about values. I loved them. I remember thinking Nebraska sounded so romantic and far away! They used to peddle these books door to door and nearly every kid in the neighbourhood had a copy in the house. None of us were SDA's but our Mums all liked the stories. Our house caught fire and my book was smoke damaged. I could never read it with the same enjoyment again as it smelt of smoke and I would remember the terror of fleeing the house. The book was one of the few things found intact.

Carolyn

PS at five my only conception of the USA was that it was Walt Disneys home!

Carolyn

KIWI LADY!!!!!!! (CAROLYN) OH yes Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories, oh I'm so sory for your unhappy memory, I did not know who had published them but they were the BEST stories for children there are! Sort of like the new book on moral lessons by...who is it? Bill something?

Anyway, oh I loved those books! Those stories still run thru my mind! How about the little boy and the field of seeds? Was it Peter and the pumpkin seeds? I used to use it when teaching Sunday school: child wants a job and farmer gives him one, plant these seeds in the field and you can have a swim and your money too! It's summer time and hot. Bucket of seeds gets heavier and heavier, farmer will never know, two seeds in hole, 7 seeds in hole, 10 seeds in hole 50 seeds in hole, job done, swim and money and nobody will ever know; of course the seeds came up! Hahaah And of course you reap what you sow! Ooh I loved those stories.

Another one was the father and mother who sacrificed everything to put the child thru college, they were of modest means to start with: dad gave up smoking, mom I can't remember what she did, she did make all their clothes, went without, without and they managed to send son to college and went up to visit son and they looked so shabby he pretended he did not know them with his friends!~ Broke their hearts, (sharper than a serpent's tooth) and made me cry too. And the pitiful part was they sadly went back home and took up their places by the fire, what else could they do? What else would anybody do? Broke my heart, that one, and read it with a vengeance, you may be sure! hahahahahaHow about the one where the child always took the biggest pastry so they fixed him one that was hollow to teach him about outward appearances, and the one on St. Michael's Mount, will never forget that one (I always thought the series was English?, written in England, always talked about things I knew nothing of: conkers, for instance??!!?? And you thought it was American? hahahahaahah I'll go look!) Anyway, he got trapped in the water rushing in at St. Michael's Mount and 50 years later I got to visit St. Michael's Mount and I guarantee you it rushes in.

OH boy I'm so sorry those have negative connotations for you, I have a couple of the set left, my MIL's and it says The Anderson Children on the outside, must have been sold door to door? Anyway, I sure did read those to my children, thank you for that memory, I do wish yours wasn't painful, that almost seems an omen, the only thing remaining!

Pedln, I asked my friend who teaches LD about the reading and eating and she said she was not aware of that symptom of any particular category of LD but she herself had been LD and she did know she preferred to concentrate on one thing at a time, like either reading or eating, but not both, so that may be something like what that author was saying, but then again my friend does teach the more severely LD kids?

ginny

Oh, Ginny. What a treasure of really neat this and that you are! That is William Bennett who has written the book of virtues for children (a knock off on the book of virtues for adults). I'm going to look for information on The Anderson Children. Will get back to you all after while.

While I don't have much input, this discussion is so delicious. I'm enjoying every word. Anyone read Will James as a child? The (almost) first book I really remember is "Smokey" written and illustrated by James (who was a Canadian who migrated to the United States, changed his name and became famous in the West).

Howzat

Howzat

I haven't been in this discussion, but hav been reading.

I notice that you mentioned Will James. I have the book "Smokey" with the illustrations and his signature...The most fun reading I've ever done. He has a way with describing how the animals act and think. I would not part with that book for my life! Still read it over and over, children's literature, or not.

I've read it to my Grandchildren. I would read a page, and then have one of them read a page. There was no stopping them, once we got into the story!

Many, many of the others posts bring back delicious memories as well.

Take care of that Will James book. It is probably worth a bit of money, especially if it is signed. There is a Will James Society. Look on Google. Also, check under "books" on Ebay for a "price check" on your "Smokey". Is your copy a 1st Edition? Goodness, what a wonderful book. Got me started drawing horses. I got pretty good at it.

Howzat

Howzat

Yes, I believe my book, entitled Smokey The Cowhorse is a first edition. It has Copyright, 1926, by Charles Schribner's Sons. There are 43 illustrations, signed by Will James and dated 1926. (before I was even born). This book was given to me by a relative and I treasure it beyond words.

I also have the set of The Whiteoaks of Jalna, which comes in a close second to Smokey. I read those as a teenager. I've seen the Television series, (not what I expected), having read the books.

BTW I did see a movie of Smokey (have it on tape) but was a little disappointed, having read the book. It would be quite difficult, I think, to put that book into a movie and do it justice.

A book gives you a personal vision of something and that cannot be duplicated, I don't think.

I will do a search for the values.

Wonderful, enjoyable posts for me to read. Thank you everyone!

Of all the books mentioned I have failed to add my favorite. Any book of poetry. While I have some that are by a single poet I love most the anthologies. I need those to find just the right poem for what I need. Years ago when my husband was away in some foreign land I would feel so sad it seemed if I didnt weep I would disappear. Perhaps that makes little sense but it was the way I felt. So I would read poems about sad things and let my own emotions free so I could move on.

My favorite poem was Eugene Fields "Little Boy Blue" After wards I would find a funny poem or different view and it would lift me. So I would be remiss if I failed to say my favorite book is a book of poems. anna

Ah, Annafair, I hadn't thought about those. I had "A Child's Garden of Verses", some of which I came to know by heart. My favorite Eugene Fields poem is "The Gingham Dog and the Calico Cat", tho' I didn't really care for the ending. In my own mind, I changed it so that the two would continue to sit on the mantle. I can still recite "Bobby Shaftoe". I'm sure more are going to rise up out of 'storage' now. ...Babi

I believe that my classes were some of the last to require memorization of almost daily poetry. I loved the sweep and rhythm of the words and I was able to transport myself.

Afterwards I would often try to write something similar and usually not succeed. In light of my previously confessed love of fantasy, I must confess my love of Poe, his "Bells" and poems like the Highwayman and many from medieval Europe.

Another school treat was when the teacher would bring out the record players. We would listen to Peer Gynt and Peter and the Wolf along with others. It was all poetry to me!

Shakespeare, Chaucer, Bruce, Johnson and Burns; whatever would we do without them?!

Howzat, thank you for that, you are such a bright light!

Angelface, I think when we stopped memorizing we lost something, when did memorizing become a bad word? Jeepers how better to do exactly as you say, experience the grandeur of the language.

Prancer:Smokey the Cow Horse!! What a super book and I had forgotten it! First edition! WOW!! yes that was a good one and so were the Farley's Black Stallion series, for horse lovers.

I have really enjoyed traveling down memory lane here,

Babi, isn't it amazing what we can recite? I'm sitting here doing Casey at the Bat. My specialty or quirk is old songs, tho. I'm really into the old ballads, my grandmother sang them to me and I sure do know them. How many people do you know who know the verses to Jesse James was a lad who killed many a man? hahahahaa

ginny

Anafair, poetry. Wonderful to read and to recite.

Hi BaBi!

Angel, I remember memorizing the Highwayman, and Evangeline by Longfellow.

Ginny, you are the only person I know who knows the verses to Jesse James...

Another thing I did a lot of was memorizing Bible verses, and I think the wonderful language in the King James version is best for that.

When in 4th to 8th grade at Tahoe one room school we had to memorize a poem every week and take turns reciting them. So I learned many but I remember only a line here and there of any of them now.

At one time, when my children were young I could recite hundreds of nursery rhymes and simple children's stories. It is something I lost I think when I quite using it. Now it takes me hours to remember simple rhymes. I particularly loved Ogden Nash and in the 50's I memorized some of his peculiar poetry (and taking liberties to change some stuff for the little kids) I did recite it to my kids.

Nellie Vrolyk

I was going to mention that my MOST treasured Book is my Mother's very old Bible. The leather cover is so worn and soft that it feels almost like velvet material. The gold edging on the pages has become a crimson colour and the pages are close to a kind of cream colour.

One other book that is a great love of mine is my Hymn Book, with all of the old gospel songs that we knew so well. Talk about memorizing! I think I still know most of them by heart.

As a middle school language arts teacher we had weekly poetry memorization. Often when I see those former students who are in their late 20s they will remind me about those Fri. readings and how much fun they were and how much they still remember. They sure didn't give me that kind of feedback on those Fridays!

Another bit on memorization. I was teaching English in a Bundesgymnasium in Austria and the students were expected to learn 150 new words a night. No wonder they are so fluent in many languages!

Kathy

Nellie, I remember Evangeline now! Thanks!

Does anyone remember Hiawatha? On the shores of gitchigumi (spl.)? I think the kids nowadays have really missed out.

A friend of mine used to gift his children with a dollar if they could recite a poem upon request. For his 80th birthday, they all recited poems and he gave them each a dollar!

The only one I remember now for some reason is she walks in beauty like the night.

Oh Yes Hiawatha ...and Under the spreading chestnut tree the village smithy stands with .....something and broad and sinewy hands.......so many I remember from my childhood because we had to memorize them and I am so grateful for those teachers who encouraged us not just assigned our recitations.

I still remember Invictus, the beginning of The vision of Sir Launfel the last of Thanatopsis and so many more ...often they just seem to fit a need in my life ...I keep hoping my grandchildren will have a teacher who encourages memorization.

In the 7th grade we had a young man who rebeled against memorization he said He was going to be a farmer so what did he need all of that information for? The teacher, Miss Hefton, replied Remembering poetry would enrich his life when things went wrong...and she was right.

Hooray for all kinds of books..may they be there forever! anna

The Village smithy stands. The muscles of his brawny arms stand out like iron bands.

"Oh, oh, said Jane. See Dick. See Dick and Spot"

Kathy, teachers are like gardeners. They plant the seeds of knowledge but they hardly ever get to see the flowering. Their gardens almost always move away.

Howzat

I think that I shall never see

A poem lovely as a tree.

A tree whose hungry mouth is pressed

Against the Earth's sweet flowing breast;

A tree that looks at God all day,

And lifts her leafy arms to pray.

A tree that may in Summer wear

A nest of robins in her hair;

Upon whose bosom snow has lain;

Who intimately lives with rain.

Poems are made by fools like me,

But only God can make a tree

You know what might make a fun game? If we had poetry completion game, it would have to be honor based, ahahaha (no looking up!) but one person could start with a line as they remember it and you could see how far you could get in the poem and how hilarious your remembrances are. hahhaha Just looking at the village smithy here recalls to me that I can't go beyond the iron bands. And I can't get beyond the murmuring pines and the hemlocks but some of you may be able to. Listen my children and you shall hear....It is an ancient Mariner and he stoppeth one of three....half a league half a league half a league onward....under the sod and the dew, waiting the judgment day...Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears....

I recall in WWII and VietNam hearing that it was snatches of poetry and Bible verses which saved the sanity of POW's, you never know when memorized verses will come in handy.

ginny

It's odd how we remember something and think it is our own thoughts like this one.

O CAPTAIN! my Captain! our fearful trip is done; The ship has weather'd every rack, the prize we sought is won; The port is near, the bells I hear, the people all exulting While follow eyes the steady keel, the vessel grim and daring:      But O heart! heart! heart!     O the bleeding drops of red          Where on the deck my Captain lies,           Fallen cold and dead.

O Captain! my Captain! rise up and hear the bells;

Rise up—for you the flag is flung—for you the bugle trills;

For you bouquets and ribbon'd wreaths—for you the shores a-crowding

For you they call, the swaying mass, their eager faces turning Here Captain! dear father! This arm beneath your head;          It is some dream that on thedeck,          You've fallen cold and dead.

My Captain does not answer, his lips are pale and still; My father does not feel my arm, he has no pulse nor will; The ship is anchor'd safe and sound, its voyage closed and done; From fearful trip, the victor ship, comes in with object won;     Exult, O shores, and ring, O bells!       But I, witmournful tread,          Walk the deck my Captain lies,            Fallen cold and dead

Walt Whitman

Did you remember all of that? I am not sure I could recall a WHOLE poem I have memorized when I was young. There were times in the past I could...and yours was one of them.

Ginny you are right about the prisoners saving thier sanity by putting together a Bible from their collective memories and poetry verses.

Sometimes when a stray line pushes itself to the front of my memory I have to look up the poem and what joy when I find it and recite it outloud with gestures. It is like a finding a hidden treasure...

anna

Ginny, you mean, like " I shall go down to the sea again, down to the sea in ships.........."?

Lorrie

annafair

Not all of either but most of them as for some reason (probably because) we had to learn them and recite from memory.

Lorrie, yes, like,

Lorrie says: I shall go down to the sea again...
and stops. And then Ginger comes in and says...(now here's where it gets tricky), does ginger say....

down to the sea in ships?
OR...

Does Ginger say

down

and somebody else fills in

to
and somebody else says

the
and somebody else adds

sea

etc?

I think the one word thing is better. But how would you ever have a winner?

ginny

Ginny

Hi...! Nice to "see" you again.

I think that is a wonderful idea that you have. We do that in Pop Music Quiz. Someone will begin with the first line of a song and others, in turn, will add a line. We really don't have winners, (in that form of quiz) but does it ever get the brain cells working!

We also have a form of quiz where someone will list a line from a song (not the first line) and we must guess the Titles. We do keep track of who guesses the most in that form of quiz. Maybe 10 songs.

It is a lot of fun and we have a very good group there. I have learned so much from those very clever participants.

Listen My children and you shall hear..... Of the Midnight ride of Paul Revere ( did you ever wonder why they left off the other rider?)

Poetry has accentuated my life. Whether it is from books, music or even the computer, it has enriched me. Each poem that comes flooding back is a wonderful memory linked to a moment that I had forgotten, thank you.

"Hardly a man is now alive who remembers that day and year? He said if the British march by land or by sea, from town tonight..."

I really do not remember the poem. Unfortunately I may just be remembering someone else's memories of that poem.

"I must go down to the sea again, To the lonely sea and the sky, And all I need is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." LOVE IT!

My grandmother used to sing us a couple of songs when we were small. One was 'Chick-a-dee-dee'. The other was about an Indian maiden named Redwing, and her warrior brave who died in battle. Does anyone else know either of these?

Poe,...was it Angelface to spoke of Poe? My favorites of his were "The Raven", and "Annabel Lee". I must confess to the heresy, on reading aloud the interminable repetition of "Bells", to inserting a "hell's bells!" My listeners, my mother and a friend of hers, tried to appear shocked but ruined it by giggling. (*-*( ...Babi

BaBi

Yes, I remember hearing Chick-a-dee, chick-a-dee, chick-a-dee,dee,dee but can't remember any more. I hope somebody else does.

Also Redwing.

There once was an Indian maid, a shy little Indian maid...... (going blank on the rest of the first stanza)Remember the tune so well.....

Chorus: (not exactly though) Oh,the moon shines tonight on pretty Redwing. Her heart is sighing, her eyes are crying??(not sure about those lines) For away in the war her love lies sleeping, While Redwing's weeping, her heart away!

Not exactly sure of the words, but it brings back memories, which I hadn't though of since childhood.

Prancer, I remember the second line of the chorus as being: "the breeze is sighing, the night wind crying". Unfortunately, I don't remember the rest of it, either.

All I can remember at the moment on 'Chick-a-dee-dee' is two little children going out to play, and the bird in the tree "merrily singing his chick-a-dee-dee". Actually, as I recall both songs ended sadly, and in retrospect are probably unusual songs for putting the kids down for a nap. Not exactly the traditional lullaby. ...Babi

BaBi

Ah yes. Right on the second line! I don't recall if we even knew the meaning of the songs; just the melody. I'm not sure words meant too much at that age.

Lovely memories!

I don't think the Brothers Grimms "tales" were proper night time reading either, but who knew or cared at that age?

Someone in another discussion remarked on my post of using magnets on my fridge. She stated that her husband would object. I like to think my small collection is a bit more then the usual plastic fruit. I have some poetry words that you may buy at Hallmark or similar stores. I can mix up the words and syntax and have my own poetry readings. They are simply boxed sets of words and some single letters and quotation marks with applied magnet backing.

I also have a set of "Maxine" words that may be switched around in what ever context you prefer. I will post a photo of that in photos then and now to give you an idea. It is post 662 for those interested parties.

I also have two magnets that are powerful but nonverbal. One is a big red stop sign and the other is a bathroom scale.

angelface; I have some magnetized word sets that make poems about cats! They are fun. They stay the same a lot, and then, suddenly, inspi- ration strikes and more poetry apppears. isak

I have had fun reading all your poetic posts!

Isak2003;

With five cats I have to admit that I have one featuring cats as well! These sets are so much fun and great for taxing the little inspiration I may process.

Oh the moon shines tonight on pretty Redwing The breezes sighing , the night birds crying Far away neath the wave her brave is sleeping While Redwing's weeping her heart away

Here I am singing this chorus ....oh my I do remember..whether right or wrong I cant say but those are the words I recall. Now the next time we have a get together Ginger and I will serenade you with this song...since we cant carry a tune..it will cure you of trying to remember it

anna

I am trully LOL O what a team we will make as every body leaves. Smile.

Quick note; Pat Scott has moved my photo of the Maxine magnet to graphics as she says it is that more then a photo so it is no longer #662 in photos.

Now she has moved it back! That is one traveled little photo! lol

Hi, we have a brand new game open called Last Man Standing and it originated right here in thie discussion in Curious Minds!!

In the game one person begins with a line from literature, it can be a poem or famous speech or piece of literature or even a song, and then the contestants try to each add the next WORD only ONE WORD, and complete in that way the poem. The Last Man Standing, that is the person who posted last (haven't figured out how long we should wait) is the winner, gets his name in the heading and gets to select the new line.

Come on down and give it a try, we should have lots of fun with this one, and memories, too, and we'll work out the kinks as they occur!

The first line is, in keeping with Saturday's Ides of March, "Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears!"

Come on by,

ginny

This early in the day, too. O Captain by Walt Whitman was read several times during the days after JFK's asassination, when nothing was on television except reports about it, not ending until the funeral was over. Now, I always associate the poem with the event, and tears start to flow at the first line.

Remembering early childhood is great fun, mostly. And talking about books read in the "beginning" is a delight to a lifetime reader.

Howzat

Okay, Ginny, the next line is "I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him!" Next!

My daughter and I have lots of magnets on our fridge, of all kinds. Don't think any of them could be considered literary. Unless you like the one that reads:

"The purpose of life is not to be happy, but to matter, to be productive, to be useful, to... hey,doughnuts!"

Then there is the one that says:"The more I know about men, the better I love my cat!" (Sorry, fellas. Nothing personal.)...Babi

And after that, Babi? haahahah the idea of Last Man Standing click here to play is to see how far you can goooo and each person take only one word? It's just a fun game, nothing more, give it a try, that one may be too easy but there are others. I myself can't get beyond so let it be with Caesar but I bet if somebody jogged my memory I might falter on, would be fun to see anyway.

ginny

My fridge says in very bold letters " Are you the Person you wanted to be".. Got it 15 years ago on my 50th birthday when I seemed to be having an epiphany on how I wanted to be..

My favorite frig magnet says

There is no such thing as a non working mother.

I used to love Hans Christian Anderson too. I won a number of essay prizes as a child the prizes were large book tokens. One massive book I bought contained all of the Grimms Tales, All of Johnathon Swifts tales, Hans Christian Anderson and The Water Babies. It had wonderful ink drawings. This book was as big as the largest family bible. It was lost in a flood when I was an adult and my books were stored in my parents basement. It broke my heart to lose it. I have no books left from my childhood.

Carolyn

In case you all missed it on another area of SN, our Lorrie Gorg, Coordinator of the Curious Minds Team's 80th birthday is today!!!!!!!
Happy Happy Birthday, our Lorrie!
The Big 8-0!! ginny

WOW! CONGRATULATIONS, LORRIE!

(Gee, I hope, I hope, I hope my brain is still clicking over as sharply as yours when, and if, I reach that milestone.) ...Babi

Reading has made so many things possible for me such as education and obtaining a very worthwhile employment. I can keep abreast of the news and have hours of pleasure reading either fiction or nonfiction. If I couldn't read I probably would never have visited the wonderful book stores or libraries and searched the shelves that held all those treasures of books.and what a shame that would've been. I view a book as a magic carpet or Aladans lamp that can take me anywhere I wish to go. However, all the books in the universe would've meant nothing if I didn't know how to read.

When I started grade school, I was so fortunate to have a teacher that made absolutely sure everybody in her class new how to read. This wonderful woman would spend time with every student that was having difficulty learning to read until he/she understood before moving on. What a remarkable gift/treasure this woman gave me.

The teacher. Is there a more noble profession?

Bill H

Happy Birthday, Lorrie!

I love reading all your posts.

Ginny, I think it is such fun that you have started a new game based on this discussion.

I'm busy today, so I'm just dashing through.

Bill;

I am so glad that you had a good teacher in the beginning as that colors your whole term as a student. My teachers were some of the worst possible in my opinion and it is a wonder that I grew as I did. I maintained a high B to A average in spite of my teachers, and more to my private reading habits then class work!

A lot of it had to do with parental mores clashing with the teachers's culture in the fifties. At home, I was not only able to question and refute what my parents said in context to their discussion held views. I was encouraged to! This did not apply elsewhere with them naturally!

In school, it was very authoritarian and you never ever questioned the teacher or even admitted to the possibility of an error! I remember once that I questioned a teacher's statement in sociology class and was told that I was totally wrong. The teacher even joked about it and had the entire class laughing at my assumptions.

This was not the best idea on that teacher's part as I came back two days later with absolute proof, raised my hand, stood up and read it out loud to the class and included names and other qualifying material.

When I had finished, the teacher informed me that I had earned myself a two week suspension from school. Later that afternoon when my locker was stuck and I muttered "Damn!"; that same teacher heard me and added another suspension week.

To the principal's office I went and asked to see the principal. I was told that he didn't like to interfere in these type of discipline matters.I came back with my parents and got the suspension annulled. I also ended up switching classes and discovered a wonderful teacher who encouraged dissent according to debating rules and regs. My grade in her class rose from a former C to an A+.

The teachers that I had in my earliest days and again in my freshman and sophomore years were incredibly structured and unable to bend. I am surprised that they didn't irreparably damage the majority of their students. I was an independent, introverted child who was not able to deal with humilation well and always responded to it badly. That era's teachers and I were not a good fit! The teachers in fifth, sixth, eighth grades as well as my final two years of high school were superb.

Carolyn;

When I was 15, our town was inundated with rain that entire summer and in August was flooded from the five rivers. While my dad went to help others, my mom had us save the food and other items. Unfortunately, most of my childhood was stored in the basement and destroyed.

I was totally distraught as only a child can be and was told to think about how lucky I was compared to others who had lost more then just a few books and toys. I was indeed fortunate, I was told. As this was explained to me in the riverboat on the way to an army camp where they were using military immunization guns to vaccinate the general populace; I was not too impressed! lol

Lorrie- Many Happy Returns! Golly what a milestone!

Carolyn

Angelface....I had a similar experience to you in school. It sounds like we were both researchers and both got in trouble for it...big trouble, and it sounds like we were both denigrated and abused in class. To this day, when I hear the word 'asinine' I cringe. That was just one of the names I was called. I rang my Dad and he came into the school and gave them holy H. I was transferred to the Gifted Child stream. It was evidently OK to research and debate in that stream but not in the normal stream. That incident, because of the subject I was researching, contributed to my decision to migrate here. So, for me, that experience played a significant role in my life. I wonder how many children had that experience, and weren't as fortunate as we were...having parents who stood up for us, and then being transferred to good classes with good teachers.

Bobbie

Thank you all for your nice congratulations, and another thank you to our Nellie for the bang-up job she is doing here in our Curious Minds. I can't think of a more appropriate subject.

Lorrie

I was excited to find some essays/poems that combined the best of the two sides to this discussion.

The first is close to my heart, lol; and is by Carolyn Wells:

They borrow books they will not buy,

they have no ethics or religions;

I wish some Burbankian guy

could cross my books with homing pigeons.

****************************************************

Then she has another:

The books we think we ought to read are

poky, dull and dry;

the books that we would like to read

we are ashamed to buy;

the books that people talk about we

never can recall;

and the books that people give us, oh,

they're the worst of all.

*************************************************** This next one is by Hilaire Belloc:

When I am dead.

I hope it may be said:

"His sins were scarlet, but his books were read."

Angelface,

One teacher I had routinely loved to make me stand up in class while she made me the butt of her jokes and had the rest of the Class lauging at me. When I told her what I would like to study as a possible profession she laghed and said "I couldn't do it, didn't have the brains." That sure did my self esteem much good. Curious too as my I.Q at that time was near 200.

Tiger Tom

I had one teacher in Freshman English, who would routinely have a boy sit class out in the cloakroom. It became a school joke. She assigned a Jewish child the first three chapters of the new testament as a homework assignment and she later retired to become a missionary in Africa!!??

Now I know there are good teachers and some are superb. I also know that you get what you pay for and that teachers are way, way, way down the list in that regard. One actor on a popular show said that he wished teachers made as much money as he did "playing" one!

I also know that the profession must have changed since the nineties when I last was aware; and surprisingly enough, most of my friends are retired teachers! They tell me that they often couldn't wait until retirement because of absurd requirements attached to their teaching.

I had one terrific sixth grade teacher who would give us an odd number of words each day to use in a story. We received extra credit for the best use of words and minus points for just tossing them in! An anthropology teacher in high school, had us write a story in hieroglyphics for our final exam and it counted for one third of the total points. Another science teacher had us write a story illustrating a scientific procedure and we were graded twice, once on the story composition and once on the scientific principle(s) involved!

I think that Bobbie, Tiger Tom and I, illustrate how deeply a teacher may effect a child for the rest of that child's life and even influence the quality of that life.

Hello everyone

Angel, I like those little poems on books.

It seems that I was really lucky in the teachers I had while in school because all the ones I had were good ones. But maybe that was because I was the good child who never made waves, the child who was just there to soak in knowledge.

That's why I love books. They allow me to soak in more of that knowledge and they allow me access into the imaginations of other people.

I think I must have been very lucky. I cannot think of any one of my teachers except one fourth form maths teacher who did not make a difference to my schoolwork. There are some teachers who really stand out. Two of my teachers went on to become Dons at Oxford and one went to Harvard to teach. I think the fifties and sixties were the heyday of NZ education I think we led the world then especially our reading programs.

Carolyn

Angelface and Tom....It seems that the bad teachers tend to zero in on students who are perhaps more intelligent than them, and therefore a threat to them. I can now see that my teacher was indeed threatened by my research, and it appears that you hit the same thing, Angel. On the opposite side of the coin, for you and I, the excellent teacher we got after that also had a positive effect on our lives. In fact, from the time I changed streams, every teacher I had was good, and encouraged research, debate and independent thinking. Tom, I'm shocked by your story....200 IQ and you 'didn't have the brains.' That, to me, shows how very insecure, jealous and threatened the teacher was by your high IQ.

In my case, it was the best thing that could have happened to me, because it motivated me to migrate here. I dread to think what would have happened to my son if he had had a bad teacher. He was dyslexic so negativity about his learning difficulty could have been disasterous for him. Instead, with encourgement from age 6 on, he was able to not only succeed in school but be a huge success in his adult life. Once they organised an IQ test to compensate for dyslexia and the tendency to put answers back to front, especially Math, his score was very high, genius category. I'm very thankful for the teachers Greg had all through his school years. Actually, for the teachers both of my kids had....they encouraged the kids, research, excellence and guided them through school so that they're both well-adjusted and successful adults. Of course, they had some help and encouragement from their Mum and Dad as well.<G>

Bobbie

Carolyn....I just saw your post. I agree with you about your reading program. Alice Springs School system used your reading program, and it was indeed excellent. So thank you, my Kiwi mate.

Bobbie

It's astounding - the numbers of people who are allowed in the teaching profession who have no business being there. My most acute memory is of the algebra teacher who stood over me with the book in hand, threatening to POUND it into me. I've always been struck though, by the thought that if a student isn't "getting it"...maybe it is the fault of the teacher and not the student???

Hello everyone!

This has been a wonderful discussion and I thank each one of you for taking part.

I thought I would say my thanks now just in case I don't make it back here later in the day. This is the last day for this discussion and tomorrow a new one begins.

Meanwhile, I hope you all feel free to keep this discussion going for a while yet.

A random thought on books: you can visit places you have never been to in a book, and you can even visit places that have never existed, except in the author's imagination. You can also meet interesting people in books; people as alive as you and I, even though they only exist in the pages of a book.

Thank you Nellie; I know that some of my happiest experiences and most valuable journeys have been through the pages of a book.

Show me his friends and I the man shall know;

This wiser turn a larger wisdom lends:

Show me the books he loves and I shall know

The man far better than through mortal friends.

Silas Weir Mitchell

I am sorry for all those who have the ill fortune to have inadequate teachers and some that sound downright demented. But, my own experience has been the opposite and I am blessed by that. My children also never had really awful teachers though the by the time my grandchildren were in high school in CA schools were getting pretty lax and graduating everyone with or without the ability to go on to college or other higher training and education. We have had a bad record that constantly slips here for the last 20 years.

I surely have enjoyed th is discussion though I only post now and then. Thanks Nellie for a good subject. Faith

Yes, thank you Nellie for keeping this timeless topic afloat. It has been most enjoyable.

And now stay tuned for a change in subject, one that seems to affect everyone these days. Several articles have been written about "Rudeness in America," so let's hear what people think about that. I will be your discussion host for the next two weeks, so please refrain from swearing at me or giving me the finger if you don't agree with what i say. LOL

Lorrie

RUDENESS IN AMERICA

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion

Topic Sources:

When Did it Become Uncool to Show Good Manners?

Bowling Alone in America

No One Tips His Cap Anymore

Rudeness Survey .. Satire Magazine, April, 2002

Click on a link and let's talk it over.

Which One Are You?

The driver who begins a turn in the outer traffic and cuts you off. You sound your horn; he gestures with a finger and yells, apparently confusing you with someone named “Mitch.”
The waiter at a nice restaurant who treats you as if you don't belong there for his or her own reasons.
The seller at an upscale boutique who treats you like you dont' belong there (resembles the waiter).
The film freak who can't wait to discuss the action in the movie —— or anything else —— during the movie.
The cell phone fanatic who ignores lunch companions to hold a conversation with someone obviously more important, probably on another cell phone.
The teen talker who huddles with co-conspirators at the shopping mall escalator, yammering alternately toward her/his phone and his/her friends, then gives you a scolding glare for glancing in his/her direction and “eavesdropping”.
The litterbug who tosses fast-food wrappers and beer and soda cans out the car window.
The diner (perhaps over-beveraged) at one of several local bar-restaurants with a sports theme. Expect anything.
The walker who meanders ever so slowly down busy sidewalks with a pair of friends, all of them oblivious to the rest of the world. At three abreast, they block your path to being on time.

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Lorrie

Yesterday, when I called the pharmacy to inquire about a prescription that my doctor was supposed to have called in, I talked to a young man who was apparently overworked and stressed out.
This doesn’t excuse the manner in which he handled my phone call, however. I am hard of hearing, and when I mentioned this to this person he became very irritated and actually screamed his next words.
I hung up in tears, but this is an occurrence that happens all too often these days.

Do you remember when men removed their hats in an elevator whenever a woman entered?
Or how a gentleman would always take the curb side of the street, (ostensibly to catch the garbage that would be tossed out windows}?
Or how no woman would think of climbing into a car until the door had been held open for her?

Today emancipated women will scoff at such antiquated customs, but frankly, I miss them. I think it was a much nicer world when people held doors open for others, able-bodied passengers gave up their seats for pregnant or elderly women, gentlemen stood up when a lady left the table, and made sure her chair was pushed beneath her as she sat.

Today’s world is uncouth. If nothing else. Consideration of others seems rare, and common respect seems to have gone out the window.
Do you find this to be so?

Let’s hear your comment on this sorry state of affairs.

Lorrie

I got a chuckle out of those question, Lorrie. I didn't recognise some of them as happening here, but I did recognise the finger one, except that we use 2 fingers here, and say 'Up yours'<G> I think I am a person who walks slowly at times, but I'm always careful to stay to the left. My daughter and I often go to the shopping centres when we have a Mum/daughter day, and we saunter, but are thoughtful,..ie, when on an escalator, the unwritten law is to stay single file on the left, and people almost always do that. I think it's part of what we've inherited from England. Sometimes, we're overly polite and courteous, which, I guess, is better than the opposite.

When my parents were in their nineties and I had to start going back to see them regularly..LA area...I did get in big bad trouble all the time for walking too slowly. We tend to saunter in Brisbane...in fact, all of life is at a much slower pace than say, Sydney. But what I got in the most trouble for was when I'd forget and walk on the wrong side...you walk on the right, we walk on the left. It got so that when I was walking in crowds, I used to have to keep doing the same thing I had to do when driving over there...keep moving my right hand to remember to stay on the right hand side..of the road and sidewalk. I note when American's come over here on holiday, they walk on the right as well until they realise that we walk on the left.

I'll tell you what was upsetting when I was back there.....getting the finger and called unpleasant names for not following close enough to the car in front of me. We have a law here that says we have to follow 30 metres behind the car in front, and it's strictly enforced, so most people adhere to that law regularly. I did that when back visiting my parents and thought I was going to be the victim of road rage. In fact, I ended up turning in my hire car and changing it for a 4wd (which I think you call a SUV). It cost more but the abuse dropped significantly. It was better than tailgating. I wasn't comfortable doing that.

One of the things that irritates me here is when shop assistants keep chatting away when I'm waiting to buy something. That only tends to happen when the shops hire young people. Therefore, I always go to where a more mature person is serving.

I do miss some of the old customs you mentioned. I always liked having the car door opened for me, for example. There is still quite a bit of courtesy practiced in Brisbane and the small towns, but not in Sydney. Here people do give their seats to pregnant women and seniors, but not in Sydney. Brisbane, although it's the capital of Queensland, still has a small town atmosphere, and both the Mayor of Brisbane and the Premier of Queensland push the old time Aussie ways, and Aussie language. So far, most teenagers are still pleasant here, but not in Sydney. Just another reason I live up here rather than in Sydney, which we call the big smoke.

Bobbie

Interesting topic. To me, courtesy has always been simply consideration for others. The 'rules' are manners. I am perfectly capable of opening a door, but I do appreciate help when I'm having difficulty. I will as quickly open a door for the guy with an armload of groceries as for the elderly person who can't quite manage.

I, too, have been offended by persons who act as though my hearing loss was something I was doing deliberately to annoy them. Fortunately, they are few. On the whole, I have found that having my hair turn white has resulted in extra courtesies, which I am happy to enjoy. (*_*) ...Babi

Yes, these are very good responses. Rather than grumbling about how awful kids are these days, perhaps we should make an effort to point out an example to the contrary. Can anyone think of any special little "politeness" or courtesy that has been shown to them by teenagers recently?

I can. Ond day last week as I stood in nervous apprehension right at the bottom of the department store escalator, a group of noisy teenagers stopped, on seeing my hesitation, and asked if they could help in any way. I thanked them, then proceeded to go to the elevator, instead, but that little gesture of theirs warmed my heart. It truly made my day, and it was such a small thing.

Lorrie

Lorrie, I think there are many teenagers who are still mannerly. Teenagers will open the door for the elderly, etc. I am trying to think of a more specific incident. I can't think of one at the moment. I am thinking a lot about this topic.

I think courtesy vs. rudeness is a very important topic. I remember my mother and father teaching me the importance of manners. Jumping up from the dinner table without saying "excuse me" only caused me to be called back to the table. Then, I would say "excuse me."

I also remember the importance of saying "good morning." My father rarely disciplined me. He seemed to think that was my mother's job. One morning, I will never forget it. I didn't say "good morning." Boy, did he let me know how he felt. He said, in so many words, that it was against the rules for me to just go about my business without one word to my parents.

I was taught both elbows should never be on the table. Spitting on others was disgraceful. Funny, after all this time, I can still remember those rules of etiquette. I tried to pass these rules on to my own children.

Lorrie,

Good topic.

I think one of the reasons for so much bad Manners these days is complete lack of respect of anything or anyone. Good manners go with respect for others. It doesn't have to be bowing and scraping but a respect for the other persons value as a human.

Golden Rule still should apply: "Do unto others as you would have done to yoursef" or some such.

Too many think that they can be rude to others and then yell when their ox is gored.

This seemed to have started in the late 50's and early 60's and snowballed since then until it has become general.

Notice that much Rudeness is toward those who seem less able to defend themselves from it. If someone looks capable of defending him/her self then the person being rude will think twice about it or have plenty of distance between the two of them.

Old fashioned Courtesy was nice. I try to practice it but have been screamed at by young women for trying to open doors or give up my seat. Since I no longer wear a hat I can't tip it. It has become dangerous to try to compliment a woman on how good she looks or how well dressed she is if one isn't a good friend.

I wonder where this trend will lead.

Tiger Tom

Respect and Rudeness,

Of course, people have to respect themselve to gain respect.

Frankly, there are too many grossly obese and slovenly people (Men and Women) running around these days. Those people have no respect for themselves or of others by forcing us to look at them. It offends me no end to see so much Fat wallowing around. Going to Walmart, for instance, can be a trial as probably 50 percent or more of the people in there are FAT and their first stop on entering the store is at the McDonalds for a "Big Mag," "Super Fries," and a "Super Sized Coke" Double order on the Hamburger and Fries.

Unfortunately, the Medical profession is enabling most of those people with saying that obesity is "Glandular" or "Genetic." Ever look closely as some of the Newsreels one sees on the History Channel showing crowds or groups back in the 40's? or even in the early 50's? You don't see many obese people in them. The occasional one. There will be some who used to be called "Stout" but it was a good solid "Stoutness" coming from hard work. What happened?

Tiger Tom

I like the cartoon in the heading. When people talk at the table with their mouths full of food, it's totally gross!!! When you swallow your food completely, you will still have time to get your say.

Tiger Tom,

I love The Golden Rule. It's a simple and short thought, but it says so much.

I think rudeness is epidemic. People feel that it is their right to say or do anything if they do not approve of a group, class of people or an individual.

Look at sporting events for children and for adults. Look at the way those people who are unable to do something for a person are treated such as service people and children or women. Conversely look at some service people's behavior!

If you are waiting in line or in traffic, some of your problems or even most will come for those who also wait, not the situation causing the wait. The man who in a fit of road rage, threw that lady's small dog into traffic, killing it; is now suing her and the authorities for ruining his good name! The fact that he is in prison is in no way hurting his case. We treat our friends and acquaintances better then our family members!

Then there are those who are cruel because they are set in their way or in preconceived positions. Their minds are nailed shut and they feel perfectly free in attacking viciously those who do not agree. Some people may not even realize overtly how they sound.

I was raised to believe in the golden rule. The few times I saw it practiced only reinforced that belief. Most people are kind and generous and willing to help...as long as it is for a short period of time and for no real effort.

It is easier to criticize then it is to roll up your sleeves and pitch in. "Can we count on you?" isn't heard much these days. its considered insulting.

Growing up in the thirties was much different than in the seventies. We children were taught good manners at home, at school, at church, and by adults in the grocery stores, the ice-cream parlor, etc. Adults had the right to tell any child to hush up in a public place. And the children did. Table manners are what bothered me most about the way my grandchildren were raised...without being taught and made to use good manners. In fact they came to the table and fixed a plate and took it anywhere they wanted to to eat. At my house I told them to stay at the table, to put their feet down on the floor not under them, to sit up and eat. They however grew up OK and I have been in their homes to dinners they fixed and they seem to have learned "manners" somewhere on the way to adulthood, so I may be a fuss budget as my own kids called me.

My pet peeve is drivers of course who tailgate me, pass on the wrong side, yell at me or honk at stop lights when I don't take off like a race car. I get so annoyed I really could become a dangerous driver. They see I am old when they pass me which they always do... because I obey the speed limits... and become even more disrespectful.

Opening doors on the car for me is something I appreciate but don't miss if it is not done. I guess I never cared one way or the other but I did appreciate a hand up into a pickup or truck seat. Also did appreciate a leg up when mounting a horse too. It is helpful and pleasant to be assisted in these cases. Faith

FaithR,

I can remember a time when if I, or any other kid, was doing something wrong we received a bang on the side of the head. Just a rap that didn't hurt too much but go one's attention. Had I gone home and said someone give a rap on the head, first question would be: "What were you doing" then you would get another, harder, rap. None of this, I am going to sue.

Tiger Tom

Some rudeness is downright dangerous.. Traffic rules for example. The right turn on red after a full stop is deteriorating into dont even slow down but just swing around the corner. So is the coming into traffic from a cross street. I am downright frightened by some of the drivers nowadays.. In Florida, we just had a case of road rage, where two drivers got into a road arguement. The lead car called friends, led the second car into an ambush and the 5 year old in the second car was killed. They are calling it manslaughter, but I think murder is more appropriate.. But then again so is the father driving the second car.. Can you imagine driving like that with your child in the car?

Stephanie, that certainly is a terrible happening. Cars turning right on a red light? Try being a pedestrian.

I rather wonder if our generation had anything to do with the lack of manners as we were the parents in the 60's etc. raising these kids. Sure we taught them our beliefs but tv came along and rudeness showed up there. Smart back talk too. And we laughed at it.

Want to remember politeness? How about the young man calling for his date at the door instead of sitting in his car honking the horn?

Bobbiecee: Hello, old friend! I was interested in your comment about walking on the correct side of the street. (sidewalk) I don't remember ever having to pay that much attention to it. Maybe that's why so many people here do it wrong!

Hats: Another old friend! In our house it was "May i be excused?", which is practically the same as your "Excuse me!"

Tiger Tom: In one of your posts you made a great statement: "I think one of the reasons for so much bad Manners these days is complete lack of respect of anything or anyone. Good manners go with respect for others. It doesn't have to be bowing and scraping but a respect for the other persons value as a human."

However, I wonder if some of the fat people reading these posts would completely agree with you.

I also believe the lack of respect, and the absence of good manners are two good reasons for rudeness today. I also believe good manners are usually taught at home, and if your house was anything like ours, it was your mother who instructed you on matters of politeness.

Lorrie

Lorrie,

I guess my statement about the Obese was a little too general.

It is just that I see so many of them in my area, especially in Walmart, where my wife works, that it gets me.

I still say, that back in the 30's, 40's, and early 50's one did not see so many obese people. Stout, yes, but that was solid, hard work, weight. Nothing to be ashamed of. Today, I see flab, hanging on peoples bodies. I have seen people with their stomachs hanging down to their knees. A great slab of flabby Fat hanging in front of them. THAT offends me. Not to mention a fanny twelve axe handles wide and sticking out a couple feet.

Tiger Tom

Yes, Tom, I would agree that there are too many of us that are over weight. But I don't think that has anything to do with rudeness or the lack there of. I am over weight and rarely, if ever, darken the doors of a fast food restaurant.

I think a lot of what we consider rudeness may have to do with cultural differences. Here in Miami I get irritated at some of what seems to me as rudeness, but I also see many polite things happen. For example, when I get on a bus there usually is someone who offers me and any other older person a seat (If this is possible). I am usually addressed as Mama or even Abuelo. I think both are ways of showing respect and possibly part of Cuban culture.

Louis,

I didn't say that being overweight was Rude. I said: Slovenly, obese, people have no respect for themselves (and it seems in many cases neither for others). I also said that if one has no respect for one's self, often others will not have any respect for one either.

I was not suggesting that being oveweight was rude. I am sorry if you interpreted it that way, I am not all that articulate and many times don't really explain myself very well. I apologize if I offended anyone.

Age has a habit of putting weight on a person regardless of what one does. Look at Frank Sinatra, a Beanpole all of his youth and when he got older he put on weight until he was fairly pudgy. So too with many people as they grow old(er)

It seems that the Latin world does practice courtesty as a matter of course. It is taught in the home, as it should be.

BTW, operative word is "Slovenly," see much of that around here all to often accompanied by obesity.

Tiger Tom

I loved the book discussion and thank all who posted ..It is especially good too read posts by people who have read the same book or mention one they enjoy so you want to read it too..

Now RUDENESS ...there is a lot of that out there and being VERY hearing impaired I like Lorrie have run into people who say very unkind things. What I find appalling is the person in a doctor's office you call for an appointment or a question. Several times this past year I called and when I asked if they would please repeat or slow down since I was hard of hearing I heard Well that is not my fault...I replied WELL IT ISNT MINE EITHER! On the other hand I have talked with people who were so accomadating I would have hugged them across the phone wire.

The thing I hate most is not being able to find someone at a shop who can really help you! This evening we had a joint birthday party /St Pat's dinner. The birthday was for my neighbor whose family has become our family. She mentioned that a small Hardware store was going to close. Her opinion was mine ..it is the ONLY place you can go and talk to a REAL person and get an answer. True they dont have the inventory the larger places have but I can stop there and say to the clerk ..I need this or that and they take me right to it..they have helped me decide what I need and the place being small there is less sound to interfere with my hearing. I will be VERY SAD to see them close. Yes I pay a few cents more but I get a lot more in help and satisfaction.

I will have to return but there is certainly a lot of rudeness and I am not sure why...anna

Today I was reading a Readers' Digest article about the health problems of John F Kennedy. It stated that one reason the public knew so little about them was that politicians and journalists weren't as aggressive then as they are now. How true. It seems that nothing is sacred or private anymore. Let it all hang out. Tell all and everything.

The other night I noticed that Connie Chung had two young friends of Elizabeth Smart on her show. I didn't watch it, so I don't know what transpired, but I wondered, "If any of my kids had been invited to be on national TV in a similar situation, what would have been my reaction." I hope it would have been, "Hey, you don't tell the world about the private life of your friends, people you respect and care about." Many of you have mentioned respect and the golden rule, and they are both so true. It's where common decency begins.

Tom:

I think you are safe, for now. That whirring noise you heard overhead was the drone of 50,000 empty Slimfast cans coming your way!! All being tossed to you by "obese" readers. Duck!

Pedln:

Also, I read somewhere that another president, Franklin D. Roosevelt was never phoographed in his wheel chair, if possible, and there were many people in this country who didn't even know he was handicapped.

Yes, it does seem a sorry state of affairs when one simple little act of kindness could affect a person's whole outlook for a day.

Lorrie

Stephanie,

It does seem to me that some of the t.v. shows might lead young people to talk without thinking and use impolite phrases and actions. There is one t.v. commercial that comes on in our area. The commercial shows an older adult male eating with a little boy. The little boy belches loudly. The little boy does not turn his head, cover his mouth or say "excuse me."

The little boy looks at the adult across from him. The little boy expects to be scholded. The adult male thinks about scholding him but chooses not to say anything. The adult knows the behavior is wrong or rude. Yet, the adult male chuckles about the belch. Then, the little boy relaxes and laughs along with the adult. Both the adult male and the little boy go on laughing and belching at the restaurant table.

The point of the commercial is that adults can bridge the gap and reach the heart of a child.

Surely, there are other ways to make this statement.

Lorrie, thanks for calling me an old friend. The feeling is mutual.

TOM....Obesity...Here it's just the opposite, in that Dr's won't accept a 'glandular' or 'genetic' argument at all. They do give tests to see if there is a 'glandular' problem, and if not, one gets weighed and subjected to BMI tests....and nagged. Then one gets referred to a Nutritionist and is also expected to engage in an exercise program. When I did my knee, I gained weight because I sat around for 3 months prior to surgery and on crutches. I went through all that, including the BMI tests. Fortunately, I was keen to get back into exercise, so now that I'm 'normal' weight for my age, I no longer have to have those BMI tests or be nagged. We also have many spots on TV which stress exercise and proper eating, and how bad the fast food is for people, and stories of people who have lost weight. What has happened here is that McDonald's and KFC in some areas are closing as less and less people eat those fast foods. Restaurant meals are also a lot smaller here than there. I found I could only eat about half of a meal when I went back there to visit my parents. I think the weather here is more conducive to being outdoors and engaging in sports than it is back there....and most Aussies engage in at least one form of exercise, even if it's just a daily walk. I used to windsurf, cycle and bushwalk, and walk my dog every day. I gave up windsurfing but still cycle and bushwalk, and walk my dog in the bush daily.....I walk, she runs<G>) I also think that because our city and state governments stress public transport into the city, and charge through the nose if one chooses to drive their car ($9 for 1st half hour, $1 for every half hour after that, up to a max of $16) that most people take public transport, then walk to wherever they're going. So, not only does it keep congestion and pollution down, it encourages Aussies to exercise.

STEPHANIE.....We don't have that problem here. It's a left turn here because we drive on the other side of the road. At traffic signals, there is either a turnout which takes one around the corner, or if there is no turnout, the traffic rule is that one has to wait until the light turns green to move. I do remember that when I visited back there, I got in big bad trouble because I'd forget that you can turn on a red light after you stopped. It sounds, however, like some people don't even want you to stop.

LORRIE.....G'day, mate. Walking on the proper side of the footpath (sidewalk)....When I migrated here was the first time I really noticed that that was a definite rule, so I learned quick smart.<G> The same thing occurs in the shopping malls. Most of them have trees and benches in the middle, and on one side of the middle is going one direction, and the other direction on the other side of the middle. I hadn't really thought about it for years until this topic came up, but realise now how less stressful it is to have everybody follow the 'traffic rules.' I also agree with you that lack of respect and good manners leads to rudeness. Parents here still train kids to call people either Mr or Mrs or Ms and their last names. Also, in schools the teachers will say 'Good morning boys and girls' and in a sing-song the kids all say..'Good Morning Mrs.....' The kids are kept kids here longer I think. One thing that helps is that they all wear uniforms with proper school shoes, and no jewelry aside from a single stud in the ear. My neighbour's girl came home today, upset, because she got in trouble for wearing a little signet ring, so they're quite strict. The girls aren't allowed to wear any make-up either, and the skirts are knee length, and the blouses loose. Somehow, by keeping kids closer to their true age by wearing uniforms, plus the emphasis on calling people by their proper names, and the emphasis on courtesy and politeness in schools, most kids seem to be relatively polite.

LOUISE.....I agree with you about cultural differences, having been raised in the US and migrating here when I was 22. There are many cultural differences in terms of what is considered proper behaviour. One of the first differences I noted was that when one was pushing a trolley through the supermarket, people were always saying 'Sorry' even if, say, by mistake my trolley (my fault) would touch someone else. That was a difference I noticed right away. Now I say 'Sorry' all the time like everybody else. Another thing is that when one asks for something, even at a take-away place, one says 'Thanks' at the end of their order. ie 'one doner kebab and lemon sparkling water, thanks.' Another thing I had to learn.<G> Here, when someone doesn't know your name they call you 'Ma'am' or 'Miss' or with a man, 'Sir.' I haven't been a Miss for a good many years. I think it's the English influence.

Bobbie

Hi Bobbie,

What is bushwalking?

Hats...Hiking to you....and backpacking is bush camping. When I think about it I can remember the words you use. I've forgotten most of them in the 40 plus years I've been here....more than 2/3 of my life here.

Bobbie

Bobbie,

I love the word "bushwalking." It is so descriptive.

I've just retired & am looking for info or web sites about spots that cater to snow birds who wish to spend 2-3 months away from the snow. Can be anywhere in Mexico, Caribbean or Central America. Unfortunately with the Canadian $ I don't think I can afford anything in the states. Thanks

HATS...I'd never thought of that...it is descriptive,eh? I have the book 'Bushwalking in SE Queensland' which includes info on length, difficulty, terrain, scenery. I prefer walks in the rainforests. I also prefer camping in the rainforests....with birds and the fauna.. where the only sign of rudeness is the kookaburras laughing at just on dawn...for at least 14 minutes, if not longer.<G>

Bobbie

Bobbie,

I can't imagine walking through a Rain Forest! I bet you find beautiful birds and flowers there. Must be fun!

We better get back to rude behavior, or we will find ourselves commiting that very act.

I've been handicapped since I was 7 years old. I'll be 75 in three months, so that's a long time. Often I've needed help of one kind or another through the years, and I've never been afraid to ask.

As a kid of 14, going alone on the train and subway for music lessons at the New England Conservatory of Music in Boston 35 miles away from my hometown, I ran into all kinds of people. Some were polite, others were not. Some gave me help when I needed it, others gave me the finger. That, too, was a long time ago.

One of the biggest differences between then and now is speed. Everyone's in a hurry. They're hurrying to get to work, to get home, to pick up the kids, whatever. When you're in a hurry, the principal thing on your mind is to get where you're going or do what you have to do. Hurry causes anxiety and stress, and often people lash out at whoever is nearest just because they're in the way. Hurry causes thoughtlessness, and thoughtlessness to me is one of the bases of rudeness.

No, we don't have the hypocritical, fake manners of years ago any more, but I really don't see much difference between those days of yesterday and now as far as rudeness is concerned. There are people who will be polite and helpful today, and there are people who will give you the finger, just as there were then.

The language people speak of has always been around. These words aren't new; we just didn't open our ears to hear them. I heard it plenty en route to music lessons when I was a kid.

From my point of view as a person who was and is slower because of a handicap, who has needed more assistance than most people do almost all of of my life, I see seniors who have also slowed down, who need help from time to time, and who are experiencing now what I've experienced since I was a child.

Mal

ottawa

Welcomme to Curious Minds and our Books and Literature part of Senior Net.

A lot of Canadians go to Florida for the cold months but I do not know just where, guess different places in Florida.

Do You like to read books?

Ginger

Mal,

It is definitely hard for those who are handicapped. There are people who park in handicapped spaces, and there is nothing in the world wrong with them. They park in those spaces simply because they are in a hurry and could care less about anyone else.

You're right, HATS. One time I saw a man park in the handicapped spot outside a large hardware store. I grabbed my cane; walked in as fast as I could, and chased that guy all over the store to give him you know what for keeping a handicapped person like me out of that spot. Boy, was he embarrassed! He ran out as fast as he could and drove away.

Mal,

I don't blame you! I hope he remembered the incident and did not go and do the same identical thing somewhere else. Some people have thick noodles for heads!

Rudeness Begets Rudeness

Unfortunately. Telephone solicitors bring out the worst in me.

I just had one with a man pushing some product, to which I replied that I wasn't interested, thank you. Very politely.

He proceeded in a argumentative voice, "And WHAT is it that you are not interested in?" Sez I, "I don't have to answer anything over the phone to A STRANGER."

Next I heard out of him, "Well, lady, I'll call you back when you are in a better mood."

BAM! That did it. I asked him, since he wanted to talk, would HE be interested in answering a question from me. The reply was "Yes".

My question was...."Since I have your telephone number here in my ID window, how long are you prepared to wait for me to answer THAT, regardless of when you may think I am in a better mood?"

ABSOLUTELY NO ANSWER.

People like that deserve rudeness dealt out to them.

Hello, may I join in.

Is civility dying out, one wonders ? Is it no longer taught and practiced in the home, as it should be - like so many other basic virtues and values ? Am I old-fashioned ? When did this descent into rudeness (and yes, crudeness) begin ? Is regard for exclusively one's own interests the sole consideration ? Is the haste to get somewhere, anywhere, fast the only thing that matters any more and the "excuse" for such behavior ?

What are we doing collectively ? Perhaps it is time for some self-reflection. And if the lack of consideration for others, or disregard for the rules is one aspect of rudeness, the impatient young are not the only guilty ones.

It is not rare to see seniors in the grocery store in the express line with plenty more than 10 or 12 items. That is a discourtesy to all others who wait in line with fewer items.

I have never considered the standards of civility I was taught as hypocritical. I handed them on to my children, and my son to his. My grandchildren know that some things are not "done" when they visit me. I fear the ad HATS (hello HATS) mentioned was the product of someone who evidently had no such rudimentary training. (When I came to this country, I was astonished to see people yawn openly without covering their mouth. This may not be 'rude' exactly, but ...)

MAL, compared to some European countries we are way ahead in making stores, libraries and official buildings wheelchair-accessible and provide clearly-marked parking spaces. Would that the able-bodied obeyed the rules and practiced civility by not parking in those marked spaces ! And I take a dim view of people returning from an overseas visit and making fun of Europeans who stood under a red light late at night when, for heaven's sake, there was no traffic in either direction !! What fools, they said. It irked me, I must say.

Ladies,

If I have offended any of you, my deepest apologies.

What I said was not directed at you or intended for you. I doubt very much if any of you are "slovenly" or grossly Obese.

Please accept my apoligies.

Tiger Tom

TRAUDE, I remember a time here in the United States when nothing was made accessible for handicapped and disabled people. I remember rushing from one end of the campus, when I was in college, to the the other end and up three flights of stairs to go from one class to another. The instructor invariably frowned at me or chided me because I was late. That was from 1946 to 1950. Now things are different.

Manners were learned by imitation of one's elders when I was a young girl growing up in New England. What manners your family had were what you learned. If they didn't have any, then the best chance was that you didn't, either, until some teacher caught you up on something you didn't know you were expected to do.

Poor people don't have much time or motivation to learn manners when they're struggling to survive, as too many were during the Depression time of my childhood. Upper class people, of course, were taught manners by a governess or someone like that in their house. I didn't know too many of those.

When I moved South for a year in 1958 I was at first impressed by the manners of the Southerners I met. As compared to the behavior of people up North, what I saw was impressive. I was "Yes, ma'amed" to an extreme. It was only after I realized that the to-your-face manners meant little or nothing that I saw the hypocrisy in this. It was "Yes, ma'am" to your face and rude, unkind words behind your back.

Mal

Ottawa:

I have taken the liberty of sending your email to some people on the website here who might be able to steer you in the right direction as to your query.

Lorrie

Tiger Tom"

Not to worry, Tom. No harm done, everything is cool, as the younger generation says!

Fat Lorrie (hahaha)

Ottawa: You might try the Retirement Locations discussion "Retirement Locations" click here

in the Retirement Living and Issues folder.

Mal, I thought two of your postings were absolute classics in correctness. The paragraph about people being in a hurry is right on target. A life of hurriedness is no life at all, in my book. The person who came up with the saying about stopping to smell the roses really had the right idea. I agree that being late and trying to hurry to minimize it, shortcuts good manners and creates undue stress. I lived a life full of stress and living on a timetable before retiring. The day I retired, I removed my wristwatch and haven't worn it since. That was Feb 1, 1981. Time is on my side now, not my enemy. I seldom hurry anymore. Its better that way. And I consider myself reasonably polite. Perhaps a little heavier than I would like to be, Tom. Losalbern

How about rude tourists? I was discussing the current topic with my granddaughter, who lives in Canada. She told me of an incident at a small tea shop in Victoria which includes more than one incident of rudeness.

I involved some tourists. (American, I'm sorry to say. We do seem to have a bad reputation as tourists, and it seems to be deserved.) In this case, the visitors were a man of about 27, his mother and his grandmother. The man was video-filming the tea shop and everyone in it, complete with commentary, as though these were monkeys feeding in the zoo. Then the mother proceeded to berate the waiter about something, waving her fork at him all the while, and with food in her mouth. Do such people behave like this at home, or is their something about being in another country that makes us behave as though we're dealing a lower species?

...Babi

Tom I was laughing at your fat posts because I remember well the first time a Doctor called me obese. It cut me to the quick. I was only 135 lbs then and wore a size 10 dress or suit to work. I went on a strict diet and lost 20 lbs. That M.D. had a definite prejudice toward people who were not skin and bones. Five years later I weighed 165!!!! Now I weight more since I retired and stopped smoking, and my present Doctor does not describe me as obese but does nag me to exercise more for my blood pressure etc. which is the same thing really. All the women going back to all my great grandmothers who died in their 90's were about my present weight as were my grandmother and my mother so I will never go on a restricted diet though I do try to increase my exercise as I do have some flab problems...want to hear more tom? or am I being rude.

The prevalent use of certain "rude" words in song lyrics, TV shows, movies, seems to devalue the use of beautiful language. I do not remember any person swearing or even using much slang around we children as I was growing up.Certainly not in books or movies. Out in public there especially was a sort of formal language in use in the 20's, 30's and even up to about 1945 when the men and boys came home. They used terrible language and all of them did not restrict it to the barracks. Sure men had always had a different language they used at times in the services and in mines and as my Grand Father said, "I can curse with the best Mark Twain and all the other Mule Skinners, but I won't ever be caught using that language in the presence of women or children." The F word began appearing in books and Boston was the only place that banned them. Soon the college students were marching and protesting that they had a right to use any words they wanted too and seems they wanted to use that word more than any other. It went from a verb to and adjective and an adverb and a descriptive noun too. Oh well we get use to it and watch the movie anyway. But I still consider people ignorant that use rude language. faith

There is something that sometimes annoys me about handicap spots. (The only time I needed one was when my husband was still alive.) In the shopping centers they are usually arranged with a Striped space between 2. Frequently someone puts his car there. I would love to give that car a ticket.

Current day life and rudeness. Part of our problems in both the US and England is the fact that most everyone overschedules their lives. This keeps them moving too much and promotes being late ( one of my least favorite forms of rudeness). Another part is that everyone now seems to assume that no matter what happens, it is not their fault. Just think of the behaviour in cars ( incidentaly if they wont look at you, this is certain to be that they intend on cutting you off) Think of the law suits. No matter what happens, it must be someone elses fault. I live in the south and I do feel that southerners tend to be more polite than a good number of others. Someone earlier mentioned they were two faced, but I have never found this to be the case. If you go up in the mountains of Georgia and North Carolina in the small towns, politeness seems to increase. They live at a slower pace and everyone knows everyone else. This makes you automatically be more polite. No one wants to be rude to someone they know.. Only strangers. If we knew no strangers, I think that rudeness would mostly disappear.

Rudness, ahhh yes, rudeness. So happy this discussion came up.
Driving is no longer a pleasure for me. Now I only drive as a matter of necessity I learned how to drive in the army back in 1944 on a two and a half ton cargo and troop truck. You know, the kind with the canvas tarp covering the back so the troops wouldn't get wet.) I believe today the military calls them a deuce and a half. The fact that I did not no how to drive didn't matter to the army. Oh no, the army sent me to Ft. Knox Kentucky for trainng on armored vehicles, trucks and jeeps. This is what the army does. They taught me how to drive that truck in 5 hours. Imagine that 5 hours and I would be carrying troops on the back end. I have been driving ever since.
My first auto was a 1948 Dodge just a Dodge. No special names were given to autos then such as Olds Intrigue, Buick Century, Ford Tarus, Lincoln Town car,etc. . No, just a Dodge. I loved to get behind the wheel of that manual shift auto and just go for a ride anywhere with the girl I was latter to marry. I didn't worry about someone cutting me off very rarely did that happen. Yes, I loved driving up until the mid 90s and then things changed around my neck of the woods. I am experiencing a new kind of driving now. It's called driving for rudeness or challenge driving.
Chalenge driving is the sort where a motorist cuts me off in the hope I see the auto and stop before slamming in to the car. They do this with a complete disregard for life, limb and property and it happens so often. Sometimes I wish I still was driving that deuce and a half with a wench on the front end. Ha.
I sometimes feel this kind of motoring is to done to prove equality or "I'm as good as you, or I'm better than you." However, an auto is not the best instrument to use inorder to prove equality or as a weapon of revenge. What good would it do me if I proved a point and wound up in the hospital.
Driving is no longer a pleasure for me and I don't think the girl I married would care to go for a drive now. That is if she was still around.

Bill H

Stephanie, over forty-five years ago when I first lived in North Carolina, Yankees weren't as welcome as they are today. I have lived in the South for the past 22 years; am back in the Triangle area of North Carolina now, and if it weren't for the occasional Tarheel accent I hear and the difference in climate, I'd think from the pace that I was living back up North.

Mal

Well, North or South, East or West, most of you seem to feel that good manners are taught at home at an early age. Can you remember who it was who first taught you the values of being polite? How many of you remember the old expression "Children should be seen and not heard."? It's a stultifying thought, but think how blessed it would be today if we were trying to have a conversation with a family and all their young, outspoken kids! Or am I too rude to mention this?

Bill, when I was driving, I felt exactly like you do. At times I think a good ramming with your "deuce and a half" would be just the ticket!

Lorrie

All,

In a way Rudness seems to becoming institutionalized:

On some of our "News" T.V. Channels Rudeness is the exception rather than the rule. Discussion groups seem to be Rudeness in the extreme with everyone trying to outshout the other and insults fly everywhere.

The Wide World of Wrestling. The Wrestlers are performers and are giving the Customers what they want and it seems that the Customers want Rudeness and Insults.

Then there is the small examples of Rudeness like not having the courtesy of pushing a Shopping Cart to the Cart Return and leaving it anywhere in the Parking lot, usually blocking a Parking Space. Shoving and Crowding, Treating everyone to the Telepone discussion on the Cell Phone, one can add their own examples to this list.

Rudeness wouldn't be so prevelant if it was condemened rather than Condoned. People seem to be afraid to speak up these days and by their silence are giving tacit permission for the Rudeness. I know, it takes a lot of courage to say something for the real fear that if one does speak up one will be turned on and be attacked too.

Pity, we seem to have lost the civilized world we lived in during the 30'2 40's and 50's.

Tiger Tom

Babi,

One sees the bad manners in Tourists from our own country.

In a survey done in Europe listing the more unmannerly Tourits, the Japannese came in first with the Germans next and the British third. Americans were in about the middle of the Pack. So, while bad, we aren't as bad as others.

Tiger Tom

Civilized? In the 30's we had the Great Depression. In the 40's we had World War II. In the 50's we had war in Korea.

Mal

MALRYN.....Good on you for chasing that man. In Brisbane, we don't have the problem with illegal parking in handicapped sites because if one parks in those spots without a handicapped card on the windscreen, one gets their tyres clamped. Stops offending behaviour quick smart.<G>

PRANCER........I believe there is a problem with telemarketers here, but since I've always had a silent number I've never had that problem. However, I've seen the problem there discussed on your news programs. If I was subjected to those unwanted calls, and even worse, the rudeness, I think I'd react in the same way. Do you have a set-up where you can get a silent number? (I can't remember the name you use) Here, I think it costs $2 something per month. I get mine free because of my work in Correction and Justice Depts. However, I think it would be worth paying that extra money to stop that irritation.

TRAUDE..... Please suggest to those overseas visitors that they not come down under to visit, as we do the same thing here...wait at a red light.

BABI.......Like you, I'm sorry to say that the majority of the tourists who come here and are rude are American tourists. However, there are also many courteous and polite American tourists as well. We have 2 names for Americans...nice Americans are called Yanks, ugly Americans are called Seppos. When I see someone behaving in a Seppo manner, I call them on it, as do most Aussies. BTW, if you see a rude Aussie tourist up there, we have a name for the ugly Aussie as well...Ocher. Feel free to bring that to their attention if you see one behaving in that manner.<G> Interestingly enough, we, in Brisbane, have found that the young American tourists are the Yanks. It's the older and retired American tourists who are usually the Seppos.

FAITH......135 lbs and a size 10 was obese? That doesn't sound right. That's about 60 kgs, and unless you were shorter than 5 ft, that wouldn't even place you in the overweight category here. I weigh 69 kgs and am in the top normal range for my height and age, and now being a non-snoker.<G> Your charts must be different from ours. I think I'm relieved about that.<G> I also agree with you about the rude words in song lyrics. I dislike the F word...it's a word the crims use regularly, so when I was working full time in a prison, that was a common word. I much prefer our word...'bloody,' which I have been known to use when upset.<G> However, the words that really bothered me when I visited the US, was the common use of MF....just thinking about it upsets me. Brrr!

STEPHANIE.....I agree with you about overscheduling of lives today, and even worse, the trend to blame others, not take responsibility for one's actions. We were having a problem with suing as well. This year, both state and federal legislation has corrected this problem legally. Caps put on pay-outs, gross negligence only. Misadventure is no longer an acceptable excuse to sue. I also agree with you that the slower pace of life does lend itself to more courtesy. The difference between Brisbane (slower pace) and Sydney (faster pace) is very obvious.

Bobbie

We are told by Americans that NZers are too polite in the general sense. However I would say we have the rudest and most selfish drivers in the world! Driving seems to bring out the worst in us. Auckland spends a lot of time in gridlock so I guess frustration may be the problem.

When we are not in our cars we are very polite - still hold open doors, behave in queues, take care with our trolleys in the supermarket. I think its nice.

The rudest tourists unfortunately too often do come from the USA and with a lot of shame are in the older age group generally. My mum has done a lot of tours with older Americans and does say they are not really liked in the tour parties. We must have nice people in here as the Snetters who have come out here have been very well liked by the kiwi posters who have met them.

My daughter says the rudest foreign students at Auckland University and she is in a course where she is in the minority as a NZer are the Mainland Chinese. She has had to learn to beat them at their own game and be just as rude and pushy to survive and get her turn in the gym showers etc. It is against her nature however. I find the Chinese students rude in the supermarket too blocking the isles and not caring and pushing into you. We have a huge Asian student population here and if you walk down the main street in the CBD you would be excused for thinking you were in Hongkong. Most of us don't go into the CBD much now! Vanessa my daughter has not much choice but as she has told me she can now play their game as its no use being polite you would never get your turn anywhere.

Carolyn

CAROLYN....The two times I visited NZ, I found the Kiwis to be extremely polite and courteous. I spent most of my time on the South Island where the drivers were courteous, and the southern part of the north Island...ie Wellington, etc. I've never been in Aukland aside from the 'In transit' section of the airport. The airport, IMO, is the nicest airport I've ever been in...the only airport in which I've been pleased to have 'In transit' time. I guess I'll get a shock when I come over to visit you mob and arrive in Aukland, eh?<G> I've found the same thing with the young Chinese students in Brisbane. The older Chinese are the worst drivers...not fast, but slow, and stay in the fast lane, going 80 kph in a 100 kmp zone...until they get ticketed.<G>

Bobbie

Yes Bobbie you WILL! Look out on the roads! We are maniacs! Trust no one to give way! Just think of the Italian drivers - thats us!

Carolyn

As soon as a telemarketer begins his or her spiel I interrupt right away and say, "I'm not interested. I'm hanging up now. Thank you for calling." And I break the connection.

Mal

Deliberate, Malicious, Rudeness,

It is hard to beat the Germans for Rudeness.

In a Supermarket they will always turn their shopping cart so it is across the Aisle blocking the way of anyone wanting to get by.

I have been in Restaurants, that were very busy and full, where a couple would walk in, look for a table have the Waiter look for an empty place for them to sit, couple and waiter fail and the couple walk out. Immediately after the couple have left another couple, who had already paid their bill and were ready to leave, got up and left the Restaurant. They would have sat there all evening rather than let the first couple have the table. I have seen a man trying to do the same thing, have the waiter ask him to vacate the table since he had already paid his bill, the Man asked for a cup of Coffee, waiter told him that he could only have coffee with a meal, so the Man ordered a Meal, he was determined he would not move to allow others to get the table. I have seen this many times in Germany.

I have seen other examples of this Rudeness with Parking spots too.

In a shop a customer will dwadle as long as possible to make those behind him wait. Also, when ordering a customer will order one thing at a time usually forcing the clerk to climb up a ladder several times to get items. The clerk usually would ask if the customer wanted anything else up in the area while the clerk was on the ladder. The Customer would ignore the clerk and as soon as the clerk would come down off the ladder, ask for another item which would force the clerk to climb the ladder again.

This was deliberate, malicious, Rudeness. It seemed to be acceptable behavior in German society as I never saw or heard any comments on it.

Tiger Tom

Whew. WE have done a lot of traveling over the past five years.. Japanese and Germans seem to be the rudest in general travel. The cameras are the Japanese problem. They seem to honestly believe it is more important for them to take a picture than for you to see. Several years ago in the Louvre, I finally lost it and simply refused to let them push and shove and put my hands in front of the lens when they pushed it into my face. Germans are just in a hurry. Funnily enough I enjoy Australians quite a bit when we travel, but not for politeness, etc. They tend to be somewhat raucous but a good deal of fun.. Drink a bit more than many nationalities but enjoy their touring enormously. Most tour guides I have been around dislike the Eastern Europeans.. They are not tippers at all. Malryn.. 46 years ago we lived in Columbia, SC and I worked in the public eye, yankee accent and all. The people were so lovely and kind to me. I was just 21 a newly wed and very homesick. I had people who wanted to have me to dinner, show me southern ways and just generally make a very homesick young woman feel that I was treasured by all.. 41 years ago, I was in Myrtle Beach, SC.. very pregnant and again homesick for my Mom and Dad. It was a tiny town then and it seems to me that half of the town was involved with me and my baby. They came to visit in the hospital , found me babysitters, and just generally made me feel welcome. I have loved the south ever since.

This is a discussion about rudeness, not about any geographical location. Regardless, I'd like to respond to Stephanie's post.

My neighbors in Durham, North Carolina in the late 50's were kind people, too. My former husband was doing post doctoral work at Duke, so as well as my neighbors, I met many research scientists, musicians and professors there from all over this country and much of the world. The culture of the south was something I had only read about before, and there were gaps in my neighbors' answers to questions I asked, based only on what I knew as a northerner and the education I'd had.

For example: Why, when I went to Sunday School and church with one neighbor did the preacher tell us, "Give them people a bathtub, and they'll raise chickens in it"? Why were there segregation and such things as separate water fountains and people, who because of the color of their skin, had to ride in the back of the bus, people, who if they were lucky were paid $5.00 a day for an 8 hour day while others who were white received much more for doing the same thing?

Many years later in the early 80's I played the piano for two services a week in a strict Southern Baptist church in St. Augustine, Florida, a job I needed to help support myself and my very sick son. I heard the preacher stand at the pulpit and preach against blacks, Catholics and Jews. I taught piano to the little children who went to that church elementary school. They were adorable kids, many of whom told me about their Daddies who belonged to the Ku Klux Klan.

All of these people were polite, pleasant to me, and called me "Ma'am", though they sometimes acted suspicious of me because I was not born and brought up in the south.

Our experiences have been different, Stephanie. I am thankful that things have changed and that the place where I live in North Carolina now is not what it was back then.

Mal

There is an interesting thread here. Many of you people point out certain rude characteristics of various nationalities, and yet, if we were to ask those same nationals their opinions of Americans' manners, it might be quite enlightening.

Has anyone ever heard the expression, "The Ugly American?" There was a book with that title if I recall.

Lorrie

I find it especially interesting to find that most people feel their area is basically free of most forms of rudeness and that it is the "people out there" who are rude. Everyone is lambasting people from those other areas while ignoring their own forms of rudeness.

I live in a area that is on the international flight plan and is known for rugged and beautiful scenery. We are also expensive because of long distances and little urban development. The majority of our tourists are not American. We have Germans, Belgians, Several Scandinavians and a huge proportion of Asians and East Europeans .They tell us often that they came because someone in their area told them how wonderful we are.

We also have what the locals call the "end of the roaders." These are often people who are troubled and often filled with weird visions. Most are unbalanced and generally frighten the small towns and villages they come to. Then there are the adventurers. With so much rugged country and rivers as well as the second tallest mountain in the world, we see our fair share of these folks on foot and various contraptions. Some are admirable and others are as crazy as the "roaders!" Many started in S. America and end at Prudoe Bay and the Bering Sea.

The very few Americans we do see are usually in tours that run like boot camp and are elderly. These people are kept too busy and on tours going only to those spots the companies have a financial interest in; to have much local contact other then shopkeepers.

Then there is our own population who is known for politeness and friendliness. I guess it is so because I hear, see and read so much by returning people about the rest of the country and their "attitudes."

In my own personal opinion, we are as rude as anywhere else. Some of the tourists, both foreign and domestic are rude and many are not. The majority of rudeness is cultural. We have a lot of young men from various countries including New Zealand and Australia; and they behave as young men are wont to do. Many end up in the drunk tank on weekends and certainly enliven the street celebrations and parties they come to!

We also have the young cannery workers in the southeast and large groups of foreign military here for maneuvers as well as foreign filming crews, plus Europeans testing cars or planes or merchandise of one type or another and European businessmen. Again, it depends on circumstance and the person rather then the country.

We have a lot of rudeness from people who sit several thousand miles away and tell us how to run our own state. We have people declaiming at great length on just how we should run our own state or we are ignored and lambasted from the ignorants who are filled with false ideas of what and who we are. But we also do that to other places ourselves and so I believe that must be human nature.

There is an old saying. Everyone is crazy except you and I and I'm a little worried about you. This seems to be repeated here as well.

Angelface - I think you are exactly right.

All,

I am not sure if this was a joke or serious:

It seems that Doctors have identified a thing they call "Gruelins" which inhabit the stomach and tell the Brain when a person is Hungry. If there are lots of these "Gruelins" all yelling at the Brain, then the body eats more because the Brain says it is Hungry. Dunno.

Tiger Tom

Thank you, LORRIE, MAL and ANGELFACE.

I am surprised-- actually disappointed -- that this friendly discourse has turned into a bashing of other nationalities and a comparison of just HOW rude they are ... and by whose standards, may I ask ? I had no idea there is a scale by which rudeness is measured.

I thought this was going to be an impartial evaluation and reflection on our own behavior pattern with a view toward making life easier for the sake of all.

Perhaps I was too idealistic, and possibly wrong. Be that as it may, I have nothing else to offer.

Traude S, this site is "free wheeling". As such, we "gather" around a subject and let 'er rip.

Howzat

Howszat

I am trully LOL at you saying Let er Rip. ~~

I agree with Traude. I feel very, very uncomfortable relating rude behavior with different nationalities. I refuse to take part in such a discussion. It's not fair.

Are We in here being RUDE or what?

Hi, Ginger. Speaking of grins, chuckles and laugh out louds, I get more of those from Seniornet sites than anywhere else. Makes my day, I can tell you.

Howzat

More on rudeness: I never try to reciprocate against a rude driver. The realistic situation is to let that person go on his or her way and with just a little bit of luck, your paths will never cross again. So why bother? Why get antagonistic? Or upset? Or, in this era of road rage, shot? So much of rudeness comes out of the notion many people have, that they are more important than society at large and that laws and regulations are for the other guy. "Surely it doesn't hurt if I park in the "disabled" parking spot because I'll only be a minute!" That is their selfish philosophy, over and over again. Now, a thought about Southern manners: My wife and I visited Savannah for the first time one spring and stayed in the historic area where homes date back to the early 1700's. We sought tours with the ladies of Savannah who were bent on restoring the old mansions from their delapidated state having sunk into slums over the years. This had been the passion of this group of women since the 1950's and we we wanted to see the results of their efforts. Our tour guide not only gave us a great tour but also a huge lesson in Southern Hospitality, wonderful manners and absolute, absolute charm. For the first time ever, we were exposed to the charm of well mannered Southern women. It was a wonderful experience that we never forget. If you are ever in Savannah, that tour is worth taking! Losalbern

Traude,

Comparison can show the we do not have exclusive rights to Rudeness that there are others who are just as or more Rude that we are.

Not bashing, just using examples from real life. The "Ugly American" isn't alone, there are other "Ugly" nations. I get a tad tired of the "Ugly American," being brought up all of the time that too is a form of bashing only in this case of our own.

I have seen some damned Rude Americans in foreign countries who made me want to crawl under a table. I have also seen some very rude types from other countries. I have talked to people in the Foreign Service of their own countries and they too are embarassed by the "Ugly" guy from their country.

I used to get loads of "Ugly American" from people who came from a country steeped in Rudeness, shelfishness, lack of respect for Law, you name it. It became popular, especially after the Movie came out, to jump on the "Ugly American" Bandwagon.

These same people would get very upset when it was pointed out that their own nationals were doing the same thing or worse in other countries.

It doesn't bother me one bit to compare. I have been compared very unfavorably overseas as a "Ugly American" I have also been told that it was my "Sacred Duty as an American" to protect people in danger.

Tiger Tom

Traude, and Hats:

I am so sorry that you feel disappointed at the trend some of the posters were showing of comparing various Nationalities and rude behaviour, but as Howzat mentions, this is not a regular discussion group, we are "freewheeling" of a sort, and all of us are allowed to speak our opinions, whether you agree with them or not.

As Tom says, this was not "bashing" but using examples from real life. Please think about this a bit more and return.

Lorrie

There is one thing that interest me. How many of you ladies out there consider yourselves emancipated women? As such, do you resent it when a man offers to hold a door for you, take your arm to cross a street, or remove his hat when he enters an elevator you're riding?

Tell the truth, now!

lorrie

Lorrie

I personally love all those niceties from a Male. I think most Males are very wonderful people and, by and large, have lovely manners towards females.

If necessary, could hold my own in the world and would never tolerate abuse. However, would not feel comfortable about having to be a "tough female". To be a lady is far nicer, in my opinion.

It is common courtesy to consider the fact in this anonymous place, where we generally do not know much about each other's backgrounds, that some people may have been born, grew up, and lived in those countries where people have been described here as rude. When we say THE SUCH and SUCH are the rudest people I ever saw, there is the inference that the dignified, courteous, well-mannered relatives and friends of someone like Traude who still live in that country are rude boors, and I know for fact that isn't the case.

There are rude people everywhere in the world, but not all of them are rude. Perhaps it is better not to generalize, but to say, "I have known a few people in such and such country who were very rude." In other words, let's try to qualify what we say, rather than making a general statement that might hurt someone else because it is inaccurate. Not all Americans are boastful and arrogant, for example.

Mal

Going back to footpaths and the problems of not sticking to the right side(in the case of Aussies, the left), our Council became so exasperated in the 60's, they painted a white line down the middle of the footpath in the main street. Of course, this was before the big shopping centres grew up, you could probably shoot a rifle down the street and not hit anyone now.

What irritates me is going up to a shop counter and being totally ignored by the assistant or clerk or whoever. Of course there are times when they have to finish something before they can serve, but if they would look up, smile, and say "Be with you in a sec.," most people are happy to wait.

Interesting about national characteristics, I know the Tourist Board tells people to remember, that what they say or do to visitors, will be how they remember the region. I have to say the verdict on the Aussies is pretty true of our young!I read somewhere that Americans rest all weekend to get ready for work on Monday, and Aussies rest up all week in preparation for the Weekend!

Jan

Rudeness,

I genearlly notice Rudeness even if it is not directed at me. However, I also usually only notice Courtesy when it IS directed at me.

I must be an oddball that way.

Tiger Tom

when I was young I saw very little rudeness and as I have aged my loss of hearing saves me from those that are rude...I dont understand what they say and after I have questioned several words I usually get OH FORGET IT ...which is fine since I didnt understand it anyway... The strange thing about this ...people who I know and know I dont hear well now treat me as if I need assistence to find a seat or whatever I may be in need of. I appreciate thier kindness and just accept it for I found they really wanted to be helpful.

I am very capable and independent and can do almost anything but for some of my friends they consider my hearing loss means I NEED HELP.....I decided it would be rude to deny them so I just smile and tell them how kind and thoughtful they are which is of course the truth..

Having lived in foreign countries for over six years I met some very rude and some absolutely delightful and helpful people. Kept in touch with many for a number of years. But since I also meet the same here I just conclude people everywhere are similiar...I appreciate the thougthful ones and try to be that way myself and ignore the ones who are rude. I think I also console myself with the thought THEY ARE REALLY MISSING A LOT.......anna

Wow! I'm sure glad you didn't say anything nasty about Norwegians, Presbyterians, Missourians, and fat old deaf left-handeders. I would have been so miffed.

Sorry folks, I'm with the minority here. If it walks, talks, and sounds like a stereotype, it's a stereotype. And tossing stereotypes around long enough in any discussion, free-wheeling or otherwise, leads to prejudice, or at least, hurt feelings. My Chinese and German neighbors didn't think this was so neat.

Ah, Lorrie, you are so tactful. (Your earlier post) I wish I could be more like you.

Pedin Well said thanks.

In my opinion, to be impolite is to be disrespectful no matter what title you put on it. It is like the so called friend or family member who says something incredibly hurtful or spiteful and then says they were just joking, so why be upset?

Personal honor and self respect seems to be out of fashion these days. It is not an American phenomena, it is worldwide. It seems that the faster our lives go and the longer our schedules evolve, the worse off we become. Manners are going to end up becoming even more legislated.

Pedln,

You put it so well!!

I'm not sure this comes under the category of Rudeness, but it bothers me that men and boys don't remove their caps or hats in restaurants. At first it was mostly younger guys, but now it is almost all ages.

Yes, I still think it's nice when a man holds the door for me, and I give them a real hearty Thank You! so they know I appreciate it. When I am alone and go through a door of a store, I try to always hold it if someone, male or female, is behind me. It always seems rude to just let it slam back against someone.

Maybe these are little things - I think they contribute to a decent society.

Marilyn

I love manners from anyone. I may not take the seat that is offered for reasons of my own, but I do love being offered it and am ( I hope) gracious either way. I was not trying to bash any nationalities, but I think I was getting a little annoyed at people blaming Americans for everything. There are good and bad manners all over the world. Some for one reason and some for another. Some bad manners are local customs and just look bad to us. Others tend to say.." Our Culture wants" and I have problems with that. In Florida there is a lot of street drag racing.. People die every year and when it is being legislated against. There is a huge argument that it is a cultural thing. I dont consider dying to be a cultural thing.. Your friends and neighbors of all nationalities are never rude or rarely ( I have an Aunt who has raised the standard on this sort of thing. She calls it being 90), but strangers may be. I still believe that a good deal of rudeness comes from being able to be a stranger.

... What can one do to encourage courteous behavior?

I have found when traveling, if I am are courteous to others, they are for the most part courteous to me. And when they aren't, you just write it off as a person you hope you don't meet again.

When I'm driving and hopelessly lost.. I stop at a covenience store..walk in with a map and pencil.. buy a pop... then ask the clerk to show me on the map where I am.. maybe they don't know where I want to go... but they at least help me find where I am.

I appreciate kindness in any form, such as a smile, holding door, seating me and all.

I have a friend that meets with our retires lunch once a month that in my mind is my sandpaper as she is Very arguementive (sp) but we put up with her rudeness as it is just her nature so we understand. I just agree with her, (can't argue when agreed with). she is a senior also but has been that way all her life. It is not always easy to be nice but we are. Some have tried to change her to no avail.

THE RUDENESS SURVEY" That last article in the heading, the "Rudeness Survey", has got to be one of the most blatantly slanted pieces of writing I have ever had the displeasure to read. Anyone who objects to rudeness is described as "whiny little bastards", "precious flowers", "sniveling babies", etc.

I had never heard of "Satire Magazine" before, and having read this example of their offerings, I will take care never to read it again. Whoever is in charge obviously does not understand the nature of satire at all, at all. ...Babi ...Babi

You aroused my curiosity so I read the survey ...it seems to me the author is describing his/her self..whining about how people are upset about rudeness.The author must have real problem ...the report was indicative at least to me as someone who cant get along ...and is upset when "TRUTH" as they see it is recognized for what it is RUDENESS. I have never heard of this magazine either...and no wonder ..who in their right mind would read and believe such nonsense.... anna

Babi: In looking over research for this particular topic, I wanted to find an article that was "off the side" in a manner of speaking, that's why I put in that link. To give the topic a sense of balance.

I do hope no one was offended by what they read. (Sigh, sigh)

Lorrie

I like satire. I think it stretches our mind and makes us think. In the end, the author has accomplished his purpose. He has made us more disgusted with rudeness than we were in the beginning.

I dont think anyone could be offended BY YOU giving us that article to read....it does give balance ..and it also shows how prevalent rudeness is ....this person used words most find offensive and told us WE WERE AT FAULT for being offended ...I still think the author has a problem not those who believe in watching what we say to others and try to be kind and mannerly. anna

I dislike foul language and do not use it.

LORRIE, I completely agree with Anna. My ire was directed at the author of the article. Your selection of the article was perfectly appropriate for the purposes of presenting other views.

I agree, Hats, that the article makes us even more disgusted with rudeness, but I doubt if that was the author's purpose. I like good satire, too, but I don't see this as a sample of it. To my thinking, this guy falls into a category defined in our family as: "Rude, crude, and socially unacceptable." <BG> ...Babi

Your definition gave me a big smile thanks ....anna

When I slowly became an adult, I was often labeled as prissy because of my language use and education. I expected certain types of behavior that were no longer found in the "outside world." I had been raised by my parents who valued decorum and yet placed emphasis on speaking our minds if we were correct.

It took me a number of years and a marriage before I knew how to blend into a group of my peers. Now as I age, I find myself going back to those old standards and expecting others to follow suit. I once asked my landlord if I was known as the cranky old lady on the top floor. I had known a few older women so called in my youth and was becoming able to not only understand, but identify with them.

He said no he didn't think so. He said they knew me as the lady who baked cookies for you if you helped her out! Well, bribery is better then cranky in my book!

All day I've thought that it is the height of rudeness when nobody takes the time to ask me and other citizens like me if we think it's okay to start a war. ; (

I think the Satire article is funny, and I believe that's what it was intended to be.

Mal

Right on, Angelface. Or as one of my uncles put it to me years ago, "You can kill more flies with honey than you can with vinegar."

Re: the article. It was an attempt at humor, although it's difficult to see it. But I think I might have found it funny 40+ years ago. (I used to think Tom Lehrer was funny too.) As to Angelface's comment about understanding cranky old ladies, I agree -- except for the home ec teacher who said, "Now girls, I have counted out the raisins and you each get three." She should have stayed home and never entered the classroom.

Just how much do some of our attitudes change with age? Do we find things less tolerable? But, that's a different game than the one we're playing right now.

I finally stopped and read the "satire" article and it is satire and it is funny, but it also reminded me of why I don't like Dennis Miller. Talk about holding two conflicting views in my mind at the same time. Tee hee, I've got to pause here and slap my face.

Howzat

In your estimation, who is the one person who was most responsible for teaching you basic good manners? Your mother? Sisters? A teacher? You notice I say "she", in my experience politeness has always been taught at home, but that is not necessarily true in other cases.

I do remember times, years ago, at the dinner table when we were all seated, all 8 of us, and if I happened to get the seat furtherst away from my father's, I would be at the end of the line, in "Starvation Corner" as we called it. Which meant that the good pieces of chicken would be gone when the platter was passed to me, and usually only a tiny dollop of mashed potatoes left in the bowl.

Once i tried to spear a drumstick from the platter just beginning its rounds, and was rapped sharply across the knucles by my father. "There'll be no boardinghouse reaches here," he said. It's an expression I never forgot and used often since then, mostly in jest.

Lorrie

My mother definitely. My father was more interested in teaching us physical activities and overseeing our schoolwork.

My mother was interested in our physical deportment and our manner of behavior. Her family was quite wealthy until they lost it abruptly in 1929. She never forgot that and wanted us to be raised right in her view. Of course we had our own views and I'd say it ended up about 50-50!

I was taught maners etc. from both of my parents. I will never forget one time at the dinner table repeating what the neibor said and it had the F word in it and my Father asked me to repeat what I said and I did well he got up from the table and headed for the neibor, so did Mom and I It was awful as his wife and all of us thought they were going to Kill one of them but some how they did not. Worse fight I have ever seen, blood every where. They were friends before that but to the best of my knowledge Never spoke again.

Ginger

I could say my mother but I had so many aunts and uncles if I ever said something I shouldnt say I would have been reminded "WE DONT USE THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE" As a matter of fact some words that are so common now I never heard until I was in my late 20's and had to ask my husband what they meant. He didnt use them either but being in the military he knew what they meant.

Besides over a dozen aunts and uncles I also had dozens of cousins and I never heard any of them use foul language. They were a talkative lot too. In fact except for H--l and D--n I never heard any swearing or cursing. Those words were used very sparingly and never at someone but at the person saying it because they did something stupid.

It was a wonderful way to grow up and my memories of those times are warm and full of love. anna who is grateful for her loving family

This reminds me that once I must have said something wrong because next thing I knew, my aunt was washing my mouth out with soap! One of those big pink Lifeboy bars - I'll never forget.

But I've thought and thought and just can't imagine what the word, or words, might have been because my family and friends just didn't use bad words. Perhaps my aunt misunderstood something completely innocent I'd said? But, regardless, the lesson took and I never allowed myself to get even close to need a mouth-washing again.

I want to talk about standard because I feel that it is standards that it all boils down to. But Everyone Loves Raymond is on and I don't want to miss that. Later.....

Like Ginger, my parents taught me what to do and not to do. I envy Anna's large family. When I was conceived, I was called a "change of life" baby because my mother was in her forties and my father ten years older than my mother. All of my aunts and uncles and cousins were up in age. A few of my relatives did not have any children. I had one sister. She was twenty-one years older than me.

Anyway, I would go next door to enjoy "family" meals. There were five in that family. I liked the ruckus around their table. On a given day, there was only my mother and father and me at the table eating.

Getting your mouth washed out with soap for saying a bad word was a big thing in those days. I think someone mentioned the soap. I enjoyed that memory. I don't think parents or teachers do that anymore. Is it considered child abuse? Don't know.

I noticed that although our sons were taught manners as small children, when they went off to school, that the language began downhill and we had to go back and correct and correct all over again. Likewise when they ate in the school cafeteria. I think children go for the lowest level in their peer group and have to be carefully instructed all over again. Then as teens, they seem to have had several standards. Home and when in the company of adults, they were well mannered and quiet.. But in their peers when adults were not close.. horrible again.. Then in college it calmed down. So it led me to believe that the company you keep has a lot to do with day to day manners..

Stephanie, there's a lot in what you say. When my kid brother, an ordinarily polite kid, would get with a certain group of his peers, he was awful, and brought it home where my parents had to correct him repeatedly, as you did. I remember once they had what they called a "burping" contest. To see which one could emit the loudest and lengthies belch! Gross!

Hats, it sounds a little lonely, compared to some large family groups which can become fairly "animated." Hahahaha

Lorrie

I've traveled and lived a number of different places--in this country and other countries. I agree with Pat completely and have also found that if I am courteous to others, they are for the most part courteous to me. My mother and father were never rude to each other and I just "absorbed" this type of teaching with just an occasional reminder from them.

My dad was an officer in the Navy. Bad language was not allowed in our house and off color jokes were a no no. I cannot imagine the mess was devoid of these things but it was definately not allowed in our home!

Carolyn

Having many adults around to correct rudeness and language we children learned very young several forms of speech,,,in the home and in school room and church and generally in public places we used a formal language with absolutely no slang and no sloppy English. We were to enunciate our words clearly and if we did not then soon say around age four we were tested for hearing loss. That was a good mother I think. We also had Playground English which was pretty much the same with the addition of some yelling, laughing, playful use of language. Then there was the language that we came to use as we reached high school age and learned "slang". This was a language in itself in the late thirties and forties. This was never used at home and if I forgot I was fined. Swearing was totally out of the question until I was in my own forties and my own children were grown up. I use several swear words and I remember well the soap in my mouth the one time I swore in front of my mom at about age eight.

Once when I was about 11 years old I was helping my grandmother can peaches. She had a huge open pot of sugar syrup and peaches on the stove and she picked it up to turn around and place it on the other work table to fill jars..and slopped some of the hot liquid out and it hit and burned her leg..she let out a little yowl and said, Oh Chicken S...! and I dropped my spoon, turned and ran to my mother and I was crying, "Oh Nana swore, oh Nana said a bad word..come quick.."That is the one and only time I ever heard a swear word in my house. Faith

I spent most of my married life in Road Construction Camps and the men used the eff word for every second word that came out of their mouths. The funny thing is that if a woman walked up to them someone would say "Ladies present!" and they stopped instantly. I never worked out how they could turn it on and off like a tap.

Jan

JAN...got a chuckle out of your post. The same thing happened during the years I was working in prisons. Both the officers and inmates would use the F word regularly, but would say the same thing 'Ladies present' and would revert to using 'bloody' rather than the F word, or not even using 'bloody.' Every now and then, an inmate would forget, but would always apologise, saying 'Sorry, Miss.' It just shows, they didn't need to use that word. My son went through a stage as a teenager, where he thought it was 'cool' to use the F word. I used to tell him I was sorry that he had so much difficulty communicating effectively. Fortunately, that stage of 'teenage rebellion' only lasted for a short time until he matured.

Bobbie

I had a much older brother who was an English professor at the UW in Madison, and who detested profanity. His comment about this was: "The use of so many swear words and vulgarities only points out the shortcomings of that person's vocabulary," and I was always very impressed with my big brother.

Lorrie

Faithr, I enjoyed your post about good and bad language, but most of all I enjoyed the part about "sugar syrup and peaches." YUMMY. Your post made my mouth water.

Bobbie, for some reason, I love the word "bloody." It doesn't sound harsh and crude like those other curse words.

I remember, as a teenager, my crowd using the words "sugar, honey, ice, tea." Take the first letter of each word and you have.....well, you know, that unsayable and nasty term. We thought that we were getting away with something by using those sweet sounding words. It proves a teenager can just about justify anything.

Without good manners human society becomes intolerable and impossible.
--George Bernard Shaw--

This is interesting:

Manners and Civil Society, by Janny Scott

Lorrie,

That's a good quote. I am going to write it in my journal.

Thank you, dear Hats.

Diane Church:

Way back when, in your post #465, you mentioned something about standards? You said you would be back after Everybody Loves Raymond, but that must be a long-running show. What were you going to say?

Lorrie

Hats, I think you and I are two of the remaining night-hawks around here. Well, I can't stop yawning so must toddle off. Good night!

Lorrie

Lorrie,

Good Morning!! I've got to get my coffee and go shopping!!

See ya later.

Does anyone here remember Emily Post? When I was a child this lady was the recognized authority on good manners, and her book "Etiquette" was a best-seller in her day. Whenever anyone wanted to learn the proper way of conducting a well-mannered affair, this Bible of good manners was always consulted. Here are two of her typical proclamations:

"Nothing is less important than which fork you use. Etiquette is the science of living. It embraces everything. It is ethics. It is honor.

Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use."

Hear, hear!

Lorrie

I don't know, HATS. I was told (of course, this is two generations ago) that "bloody" was a very naughty word among the English of that day. It is supposed to be a corruption of the oath "by the Lady", referring to the Virgin Mary, and using it in cursing was shocking. It went back, of course, to the times when England was still Catholic. Nowadays, of course, many words we considered shocking when we were young are in common use now. My daughter spent some time explaining to me that 'bitch' no longer carried the old connotations. Apparently it doesn't, but I still can't use it. ...Babi

A link to Emily Price Post:

EMILY POST

For those of you who remember that paragon of good manners, the ultimate authority on which fork to use, and where not to sit at a wedding, there is an interesting website run by Emily Post's third generation kinfolk. Check it out.

Emily Post Institute

Lorrie

Emily Post taught social graces more than manners, I believe. There's been a lot of water under the bridge since what she said mattered much. Interesting to see that her granddaughter-in-law is keeping this moneymaking endeavor going, and that's exactly what it was.

When I was in college from '46 to '50, we females laughed at our housemother who preached dear Emily's laws. We, after all, were the first to wear blue jeans instead of skirts to class and elsewhere, and weren't reluctant to use a swear word once in a while. How very shocking and unladylike!

Post tried to foist upper class society's notions of what gracious living was on the rest of us plebes. Miss Manners today is much more sensible, I believe, than Emily Post ever was.

Certain kinds of rudeness bother me. The language you speak of does not. The people who raised me and many others I knew as a kid said one thing and did another. "Oh, we never swear!" But when the occasion was right, they did.

I ran into what is called here "the F word" on billboards and other public places as graffiti when I was quite a young kid. Other words I read in books.

I heard worse language than these four letter and other such words when I was growing up -- words like kike, wop, dago, nigger, on and on. In my opinion, those words do far more damage than the ones we have been speaking of.

Mal

Lorrie - Your two "proclamations" by Emily Post say all there is to say about manners.

We are all guilty of prejudge. It is almost inbred as a fear of strangers or fear of the unknown. No matter how it is changed thru out the ages, it is still a fear of the unknown taken to an almost farcical stretch.

I have been reading about Jewish children attacked in France and other European countries by gangs of North African Immigrants's children. Apparently while the US is pro Jewish, most of Europe is not and some are saying it is very similar to the nineteen thirties when antisemitism was on the rise.

Of course France has one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe and now also the highest Moslem immigrant population as well. There is bound to be friction. It is also rampant in other countries with highly organized movements. America and Israel are seen as interchangeable.

I have lived in forty six states in my time and have noticed most prejudice is against the largest minority within a region. Blacks and East European immigrants in the north and south and Indians and Asians in the west, along with some Asian prejudge in the gulf. It tends to follow the line of economics and education, but this is not always reliable. In Alaska it is the native population prejudged and the Black population is as guilty as the white. The Black population here is fairly well integrated.

This has led me to believe that most racial issues can be eliminated with education, job training, and the use of a minority's own leaders to guide them in their own way. Do not place a group out of the mainstream as this causes resentment on both sides.

Use their own leaders to raise a people up and educate all the people in an area together. A lot of it is simply economics. It is all in perception. If you perceive yourself as something less, then so will others.

Of course I also feel that the behavior of others such as the more violent among us, should be fully prosecuted. The education of children in behaving responsibly and mannerly is a must. It is crucial that we teach our children that they are all beautiful just as they are and that they need to behave towards others with that same valuation.

Children need to have goals to strive for. To be given everything destroys initiative and makes a child miserable and those around him.

Give a child a task and include him in learning how to handle life's tasks. Give children tasks that are age appropriate. Teach him to leave other children's property and person alone and teach him personal respect and honor. If you teach a child that they will often fall and that it is how they use those falls that count; then you will have given that child a solid base to grow on.

Two of the most important things to say to a child are one; I love you! But this,-fill in the blanks-, is not acceptable. Make a difference between the child and the issue. The second most important thing to tell a child is an apology. How do we expect them to apologize if we do not when WE are wrong?

Lorrie, that link to Janny Scott's article was interesting. I had not thought of "manners requirements" as being a "power tool", even though I have always known that the "separation" process we all use to "judge" is largely based on "how a person observed is conducting himself". I am a peasant. I come from a long line of peasants. But my mother was adamant that manners and cleanliness would save the day. For me, so far, it has.

Howzat

Babi, thanks for telling me about derivation of the word "bloody." I had no idea.

Here is an intriguing article on the different phases of politeness. Out of the four different types of politeness strategy, which ones would you use, A B C, or D?

POLITENESS STRATEGIES

Lorrie

Malryn and Angelface, I couldn't have said it any better. If we sat down and had a talk, we'd wind up just saying "That's right!" to one another. lol, ...Babi

Lorrie #4 ia what I would use.

Lorrie, I'll go with "B" .. Positive Politeness

Yes, Ginger. I. too. would do the off-record strategy, I think.

Lorrie

THOMAS JEFFERSON SAYS:

"In truth, politeness is artificial good humor, it covers the natural want of it, and ends by rendering habitual a substitute nearly equivalent to the real virtue"...................... Thomas Jefferson

AND

Ambrose Pierce says: "Politeness, n: The most acceptable hypocrisy."

Lorrie

I assume you have all heard about how some airlines are going to be charging obese people double seat fare? and it is left to the judgement of the ticket taker to make that assessment? How can one person tell another that they are too fat to fit into a passenger seat, and do it politely?

Read this opinion by a columnist for the Post-Gazette, Peter Leo. It may amuse you.

Politeness At the Ticket Counter

Lorrie

Lorrie

I would suggest that a person of size what ever it be Fly first class as there is Room for all there.

I will also go for "B" as I have said practically those same words in like manner.

I also do not agree with the current antipathy towards the overweight. We do not know why a person is overweight and the habit people have of freely talking about someone else's business or medical concerns frankly appalls me!

Angelface555,

I agree. We never know why a person is a particular size. I feel that it must be awful being judged everytime you walk in a restaurant or supermarket.

My problem is the opposite. I am only 4'11". So, I greatly relate to this part of the article that Lorrie gave us.

Peter Leo writes,

"Let's face it, nobody wants to sit next to a person who takes up your space, but there is, of course, another side of this argument. I am not a person of size. In fact, I am a person of lack of size and, as close readers know, a lack of depth. yet even I feel cramped on airplanes."

All of my life, I have been called shorty, peewee, half-pint, etc. On one job, a friend gave me a pin to wear. The pin read "petite but powerful." My friend thought the pin was so cute. I thought the saying on the pin made people focus on my height.

I went to the doctor just last Thursday. The nurse said, "Oh, your one of those vertically challenged people." Well, I am trying to say that not only are heavy people discriminated against. Short people have there problems too, and thin people too.

I Know Matt Lauer often makes mention of his nose. He laughs at himself, but I think he is self conscious. Then, when he got that new hair cut, people laughed at that too. You just can't win! I have learned to just go with the flow. I work at it. Aging helps. You begin not to give a hoot!!

For young people it is harder. Young people are trying to find their identity. That's hard enough, but then, they have to fight the size thing. That's why girls become anorexic or bulimic. You've got to be six feet tall and skinny as a rail. Remember Mia Farrow? They called her Twiggy in the sixties.

I wonder if all societies are stuck on the outward appearance like we in America. I think we see boys and girls suffering with the problem. So, we are trying to change and tell them the inside counts too.

Being Short

I'm not very tall, either. I don't mind what peole say. In fact, a co-worker once said to another, when introducing me, "You haven't met E---- yet. She's not very big, but then, neither is dynamite!" He was a very nice man and I took it as a compliment.

What I find difficult to deal with is walking along with tall people - trying to keep up without complaining. Another problem, which has nothing to do with manners, of course, is reaching things in this world!

Nonetheless, have learned to cope and am happy enough with my height, all told.

I did encounter ill manners from a shopkeeper, who, when I entered the shop, said "We do NOT cater to short people!" That made me feel a lesser person, somehow. I would have preferred he suggest another shop in a more gentile fashion. I felt that all eyes turned my way.

Prancer, in my opinion what that shopkeeper said is a perfect example of what we are talking about here. It was not only extremely rude, but cruel, also.

Once, when I was boarding a small shuttle plane to take me to the main airport, the pilot made me so self-concious when he bellowed, " No, no, you must go to the rear! All weight has to be distributed in the back."
Technically he was right, of course, but still I was humiliated. My lady companion thought it was hilarious and couldn't wait to tell all our friends about it, which compounded the embarrassment.

I have never liked "fat" jokes. I never saw any humor in them.

Lorrie

Lorrie,

I don't like "fat" jokes either. That's just another form of rudeness.

Chiming in,..I would use Politeness strategy 'C', with a slight variation. I would not begin the sentence with "So,", unless I was clarifying something already said. I would start with "Ms. X,....".

I don't like any jokes that play on a person's physical appearance. Tain't funny, McGee! The only ethnic jokes allowed are those made about oneself, by oneself. If you are Irish you can make an Irish joke. I remember the jokes Danny Thomas would make from his own ethnic background. They were funny, and fond. He wasn't denigrating his people; he was celebrating their uniquenesses and personality. ...Babi

My daughter died in 1991 from a brain tumor. I am bringing this up to make a point. The tumor she had rested directly in both her left optic nerve and her hormonal center. The presence of the tumor caused her to gain over 100 pounds in less then six months. The cruelty that she suffered was unimaginable. From the way people in public places watched her or what she put on her plate to the snickers behind her and the name calling in high school to the odious man who stopped his car in the middle of a quiet street to yell, "Hey fatty, which way to the trough?" To a child who is only 18 and suffering from a serious disease, this was all debilitating. I was very ashamed of my fellow humans.

So, please think before you blurt out that joke or teasing comment!

I also would choose C. This link is to a very good site which goes into social-linguistics in some detail. This is what we children were doing when I was growing up by having those different language modes I mentioned several pages ago. I know many cultures have formal and informal parts of speech but that has dropped out of English as far as I know. Politeness and social manners are important to groups of peope trying to get along in crowded areas such as Japan where the Social Manners were so important(saving face?) that it included suicide. That is going too far. However it certainly makes daily life more manageable in public. I know it is a little thing in the big scheme of life, but I can get very insulted by clerks in stores who ignore me or speak to me in a rude manner. In many cases I have walked out without my purchase and there is one department store that I could afford to shop in that I will never shop in just because I complain one time to a Supervisor that the clerical help was rude and stood around talking to each other while I waited to check out. That Supervisor said, "Well, they had some problem to iron out and it wont hurt you to wait a minute." I walked with my purchases still on the counter unchecked. She should have said she was sorry and checked me out right then. Well it is like road rage...it is sort of catching and I am to old to be caught up in those feelings. I just cant spend my limited energy on being upset or angry so I dump those feelings as fast as I can nowadays and look for happy things and people who are more socially adept. Faith

Too right Angelface!

A lot of people also eat for comfort reasons. I know I do at times. The overweight people I know are not happy with their weight and others certainly don't do anything for their self esteem. There are some people who have slow metabolisms and eat small meals I have a friend like this who has struggled even as a teen. To be acceptable to her peers my friend starved herself and was very unhappy. She was very active and we walked for miles but I could eat anything and she could not. I was very thin until I hit 50 and then slowly began to gain weight. Its a common problem in our family at menopause. Now I am very cuddly (polite way of saying chubby!) If I wanted to be slim now I would have to virtually eat baby meals!

Overweight people are discriminated against in all sorts of ways no matter how physically fit they are and it has been proven some very big people are very fit as is my sister. My sister could run rings around me! Remarking on peoples physical appearance is a really cruel form of rudeness!

Carolyn

Oh, Angelface, how devastatingly cruel for your daughter? I was sickened to read that, and it does make me wonder how some people can be that viscious. That is way beyond rudeness!

Lorrie

Carolyn:

Exactly. My sister and i were only a little over a year apart in age, but she was tiny to my bulkiness. I have always watched my caloric intake, and she was able to eat anything or anything she wanted. When I lamented that fact one time to our family doctor, he said,"Just face it, with your metabolism every time a calorie even walks by, you gain 5 pounds."

I was thinking about this discussion as I was driving through a school zone this afternoon. It was 2:30 p.m. and I had just past the sign that said 15 m.p.h. between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m. so I was driving accordingly. A white car went around me and sped on its way. Not rude I guess but putting children in danger. I wish I could have given him a ticket.

Angelface, I don't know how you contained your own rage at the pain these people caused your daughter. My younger daughter has not only my low metabolism, she also has a serious hormonal imbalance. This has caused discrimination against her in more ways than one, and my heart often aches for her.

How about the rudeness of the marketing industry, with repeated annoying phone calls by computers for the sole purpose of seeing when people are at home. I have had as many as 1/2 dozen calls in the space of two hours, in which no one was there. (No, they weren't prank calls; you could hear the machinery disconnect.)...Babi

Babi- The marketing calls I regard as a home invasion! I am totally sick of them and on top of these you have the charities. Most people choose their charities and don't need to be phoned all the time. Most charities have street appeals also so I do resent intrusion into my refuge. Yes it is rude!

Carolyn

That's why I am so glad I have my answering machine. I usually don't answer my telephone unless I know the caller. Once in awhile I do and usually regret it.

Well, it happened again this morning. I was trying to explain to the young woman at my health insurance office that I should not be getting billed for unnecessary co-payments, and she happened to be another person who speaks rapid-fire English, in a very faint voice. Of course I couldn't understand her, even with the loud button on my telephone, and when I explained that I was hearing-impaired, she was very annoyed. I can never understand why some people get so angry when you ask them to repeat something. Anna, I know you go through this , too.

Lorrie

Unwelcome phone calls....Like Carolyn and BaBi, I would be most irritated if I received all those unwanted phone calls. I don't receive them because I have a silent number, ex-directory. Perhaps this might be the answer. When reading your posts, it feels like those who are being bombarded are, like Carolyn said, being subjected to a home invasion. Instead of the phone being a welcome source of contact with friends, etc, I detect a feeling of dread that many are feeling when the phone rings.

Bobbie

I was put on the "Dont Call" list in Florida and it is wonderful. I only get a few phone calls now. Charities are allowed to call, but I managed to get myself on their forget it list by always saying.. YOu want money,, Send me a written document on your charity and how it uses it.. Noone ever is willing to.. Politics,, I simply hang up.. So I am no longer bothered. Sort of neat.

Costs money to be ex directory and my phone bill is big enough now! I just stop them in their tracks and say - not interested thank you and hang up.

Carolyn

And the very worst of the telephone marketers would be those made by computers (one of which I had a few minutes ago!). The computer had apparently found a "live one" before I answered so all I heard was the disconnecting of their equipment. There's no option of saying despicable things to them, writing a nasty letter, threatening to boycott their product - NOTHING - and it's not fair.

Speaking of rudeness, can you imagine this kind of machinery-generated call being tolerated back in the, what, the 50's or so? I say machine-generated because we didn't have computers then. But even if the technology had been available, I just don't think "standards" would have allowed that kind of activity then. Lorrie, thanks for the reminder - yes, I did have something to say about standards. Now let's see if I can remember!

Back when we were kids there was much more evidence of standards than we have today. The kind of standards that meant we had respect for our elders and for authorities - and treated them accordingly. And this wasn't something that had to be pounded into us - we followed by example. By implication, I guess most of our standards came from our families, but then also our schools, our churches, our towns - you could really go up the ladder.We weren't exposed to the trash that we have now.

I remember back in the late 60's, or so, starting to notice young women out in public with their hair up in curlers! We never did that and no one had to tell us not to - we had a certain sense of pride that wouldn't allow that. Of course now I don't think young women set their hair so it's a moot point. But what paradigm shift took place? And how, and when?

I also remember a time, maybe also the 60's, when a movie I was watching showed a young kid and he was being sassy with his parents! And the parents allowed it! Good grief, just the thought of a certain look from my folks was enough to silence any thoughts of talking back I might have had. And this was a show for younger audiences - did this give the idea to kids that they didn't need to be polite to their parents - that it wasn't "cool"? Why did that script-writer even write that scene? Was is supposed to be funny? Or did he want to begin a revolution?

Litter - that's it, litter. Did people used to litter so abundantly back then? What changed that at one time people took pride in their surroundings and the next day they didn't care if they fouled their own nests and everyone else's as well?

And then litter of sounds - ugly words, loud sounds bent on drowning others out. When did this start - and why?

Well, I'm rambling but I did have all these thoughts and felt like airing them. My hunch is that mothers working out of the home was the beginning. Then television took over to keep the kids occupied and had no sense of responsibility about what it was exposing these kids to. What an opportunity was missed! Little ones could have been learning foreign languages - all kinds of things. But, no. Junk was served.

Do you think it's too late to go back? A little way back? I like to ponder this kind of thing.

Louise

I have an answering machine and a caller ID an it works for me as I call my Friends back but not others

There is so much on the Intenet also that I do Not like.

Speaking of wearing curlers in public being a no no, how many of you remember when it was absolutely imperative that a young lady never went "downtown" without stockings, dress shoes, a hat, and the ever-present white gloves? And of course, no pants-- skirts and dresses only! Shorts were okay on the beach or in your back yard, nowhere else.

It is hard for me to get use to women wearing pants to church. Of course, my mother believed that it was simply outrageous to go to church without wearing a hat. My mother went through a hat thing. Any little bit of money in the house, went to buy a church hat. I caught myself the other day trying on caps. You know, the kind with sequins on them. My husband thought I had flipped my lid!! I think one of those caps would look really cute in the summer.

I love to talk about telemarketers. Just yesterday morning, a guy called talking about my death and how to buy a grave plot. Then, later on, someone called offering a free trip to Disney World. Those calls can get on my last nerve. We have an answering machine but....

I never thought I would appreciate being hard of hearing, but I do. Even with the ringer set at loud I cant hear it so caller ID and my voice mail does it for me. The telemarketers never leave a message and if I should pick up the phone and find one there ( I have a light attached to one phone to alert me) I just tell them I am hard of hearing and have no idea of what they say. Do they disconnect with a bit of anger ..I seem to think so and say HOORAY ..you might as well be upset too!

Remember years ago when there were street photographers and they would take your picture and mail it to you for a modest amount? I have one of my mother and I shopping and you are so right, there we are with hats on, proper dresses and gloves. I still have some of my hats from 40 years ago. I cant bear to throw them away and once in awhile I wear them. I even have some of the gloves from those days but now the only time I wear them is when it is COLD and the white ones are never worn. There are some wonderful delicate crocheted gloves for summer and I remember how pretty everyone looked when you went to an afternoon tea...we still had organizations that did that.

Lorrie I have been told you hear what you want to hear...and I reply that is like telling a blind person they can see what they want to see. When someone really ticks me off about my lack of hearing I just smile sweetly and reply OH my dear, remember someday you will be where I am and I hope you meet a lot of rude people who are annoyed because you cant hear. Still there are some who go out of their way to be understanding and kind and patient, those I bless.

I dont know where good manners are buried but I would love to dig them up and give them a new life...anna

When I was a small child we were never allowed to go without shoes and socks even in high summer- I lived in the inner city then only minutes from the CBD. We moved to a seaside village and all the kids had bare feet in summer unless going shopping with their mum or to the movies. Mum thought it was a sign of poverty to have bare feet. She did give in and let us play in our street without shoes.

We dress very casually here in Auckland and even jeans and T's are not frowned on in church. I have not seen a hat in church for years. However I believe hats are going to be in for this winter back to the 60's style. My niece had an outfit on recently that was exactly what we wore in the 60's. Don't think she believed us! She had a hat too! She wore flared jeans also. Took me back. I really hate flares now but I did wear them when they were fashionable in the 60's.

Carolyn

I remember wearing white gloves when I was young. I still cannot wear shoes without stockings on my feet. I remember an episode of I Love Lucy. For some reason they had to take the subway in N.Y.C. Ethel had jeans on and said she had to change before they could go. Of course I can also rmember nurses' caps too. I do know why we don't wear those anymore. Men didn't have to wear them and besides they are impossible around orthopedic equipment and impossible to keep clean and starched.

I also remember when we were allowed to wear the pants uniform and the reason for that too. The mini skirt was in style and it was difficult to bend over without revealing too much. Hospitals are now more lenient on the wearing of jewelry, too. What annoys me now is that short hair for nurses is no longer mandatory.

Reading through the posts about dress styles, I realised how much mine have changed from my childhood. Stockings/pantyhose are no longer part of my wardrobe. The last time I wore pantyhose was to my daughter's formal wedding 2½ years ago. Before that, I wouldn't have a clue. I normally wear long shorts and t-shirt all summer, barefoot, aside from when going to shopping centres, when I slip on sandals. I condescend to wearing dressier light-weight trousers and a shirt when going to my part-time work, to church or out to dinner or the theatre, etc. In winter, jeans, jumper (pull-over sweater), vest and runners (tennis shoes) is standard gear at home and out....a dressier pair of jeans for work and church. Most of the year it would be too hot to even consider wearing stockings or pantihose here.

CAROLYN....What type of hats are coming in? I wear a hat when outside most of the year. I have a straw hat, 3 stylish cloth hats (different colours...colour coordination of course), and, of course, my Akubra when camping or in the bush. The hat, of course, is part of my adherence to our 'Slip, Slop, Slap' recommendations. Slip on a shirt, Slop on sunscreen and Slap on a hat...all sun protection rather than for style.<G>

Bobbie

I have not worn panty hose for years either. Much healthier for women. I wear those trouser socks. Trousers and a nice top for formal occaisions. Long cotton dresses for lounging at home in summer - so cool. Got hooked on those when my daughter brought three home from Africa in 2000. I wear singlets (colored ones) also with long shorts or trousers if I want to dress them up put an open shirt over the top of the singlet to go to the shops.

Carolyn

Bobbie cheese cutter caps as worn in the 60s-loose caps without brims -know what I mean? I think I am too old for them.

Carolyn

Carolyn....OK....I've seen them...on the young. I'll stay with my brimmed hats. The cotton hats allow me to move the brims around.. for protection from sun, etc. I'll stay 'unfashionable.'<G>

Bobbie

Hi - I unsubscribed on the last topic, figuring that my subscription to New Discussions would get me in in the next one. Wrong. It finally brought me here today. Oh well.

I am one who has changed my behavior a great deal from the little kid who was always polite to adults. My kids used to say I was so polite I even said "excuse me" if I bumped one of my cows. But I am much less likely to observe formalities now. Respect for and interest in people is about the only courtesy I consistantly observe. It seems to fit universily no matter who I am with. With women, I have adjusted to treating those who are acting like ladies as ladies and those who are acting like feminists as feminists. Most of the time I get by without getting slapped.

Before we come to our final posts here, I would like to post this link to a very important notice:

TEN COMMANDMENTS FOR GOOD MANNERS

Lorrie

Lorrie, I appreciate those TEN COMMANDMENTS FOR GOOD MANNERS. I will try to put them into practice each day. I have enjoyed the discussion. As always, I have learned so much.

Lorrie

Wonderful discussion. Thank you for for the opportunity to air our thoughts on this very important topic.

Great job!

Lorrie, on careful examination of the TEN COMMANDMENTS OF GOOD MANNERS, I'm afraid I must plead guilty to sometimes breaking number 5. I don't always listen before speaking, which is dumb as well as rude! (One of the nice things about net posts, you have to read them before replying!) I'm working on commandment #5, I promise. ..Babi

Well of course I am guilty of breaking some of these rules some of the time but in general these are the very basics of what I was taught at my parents table and in our daily life. Plus my grandparents and parents all taught that respect, good manners, and social responsibility start at home with the family and there we were expected to treat all our adult protectors and each sibling with all the respect and good manners we would use in the President of the USA's house. I also think no 5 is where I require lots of work as I jump into conversations sometime ...in fact all my sisters and I talked at once and we seemed to understand and not be annoyed but it annoyed our husbands so over the years we learned to be more aware of them and their need for one person to speak at a time. We all agreed in my family that living with good manners and respect for others was much easier and more enjoyable so we were seldom rude at home or afar.

This has been a good discussion. I think sometimes because Americans haven't so many Formal Rules as say the Japanese, that we may be seen as unmannerly when it is just that we have all the basics from many different countries. My brother has traveled widely all over the world and he says the key to any society is of course that word respect and then that rule no 5 because you need to listen and learn when you are in a new society or culture and he said you have an obligation to watch body language so you know when it is proper to get close or stand away a few feet..as these small things differ so much. faith

In this building where I live, among all these seventy, eighty, and ninety-year olds, breaking the 7th Commandment for Good Manners is the norm. Oh, my yes!

Thank you, Hats, Prancer, FaithR, and all the other "well-mannered" people who chose to join us in this discussion. This has been a lot of fun, and now stay tuned for our next attaction which will be brought to you by Ann Alden.

Lorrie

Well, I'm a little late but better late, etc, ect!

So, I have put up our next topic but the changeover for this discussion hasn't happened yet. That's okay. We can still discuss it.

I had planned on a more serious but dry discussion last week but after a week of the world's constant follies, I decided to try something more up beat.

High Hopes! When I did a "google" for this topic, I was amazed at the stories that came to my screen. People who have high hopes for their recovery from illness, stroke patients who are being helped with robots, volunteers who help the mentally or physically challenged kids learn to ride a horse which has to stretch their capabillities and the ever researching Purdue University professors, looking into robot pets for seniors. I hope you have a story of your own and want to comment on the above stories. Come join us and we can feel a little better about how the world is turning this week.

High Hopes

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb

"Using Netscape's search engine, I searched for the words, "high hopes", and came up with over a million hits. Different strokes for different folks! Seems that most of us have "high hopes" regarding some aspect of our lives. For a few of this old world's high hopes, read some of these inspiring or newsworthy stories. What are your "high hopes" for today, tomorrow, and beyond??????
Or as Buzz Lightyear would say, "To infinity and beyond!"

Click on a link and let's talk it over.

LINKS

High Hopes ~ Midi

Space Tourism
HighHopes-Therapeutic Riding
Rooftop Gardens - Smog Control
World's Tallest Woman

Robotic Dogs For Seniors
Around The World
Robot Helps Stroke Patient
High Hopes-Drastic Lengths
High Hopes Education Program

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Ann Alden

For me this week, one of the highlights of my life was my 4 yr old granddaughter pointing out her mother's emerging daffodils, crocuses and tulips and naming them. Well, trying anyway! Yes, hopeful are our children and our flowers.

Thanks, PatW, for putting up the new header. You did a great job!

Hi Ann and Pat, the heading is beautiful! I can't wait to read the articles.

Ann,

When I go to bed at night I have high hopes of waking up in the morning. BUT, at our age is it always pleasant to have those hopes realized.

Tiger Tom

Tom

Depends on whether you can move in the morning, doesn't it? I'm always glad that I'm still there!

Tom LOL as it is so True.

Oh I LOVE this topic, Ann, and Lorrie so well done with your Rudeness topic, very proud of this discussion, High Hopes, we've got high hopes, we've got high in the sky apple...pie hopes. I always have high hopes.

A man's reach should exceed his grasp or what's a heaven for?

They do say there's nothing a greater burden than to bear the expectations of others, tho, wonder why that is?

What a super question. hahaah Tom, hahaahaha Love the midi, Ann.

Is it better to have high hopes or none?

The one won't disappoint you?

ginny

High hopes--but not looking too far ahead.

After a gruelling winter here in Ontario, I have high hopes of a great summer. LOL

"There goes another problem, kerplop!"

Ginny, I think those heavy expectations are the ones other people place on us. It can be a heavy burden being the person your Mother, your Father, your spouse, etc., etc., expect you to be. It's tough enough living up to your own expectations...or should I say, your own "high hopes". ...Babi

What a pleasant new page today. I love balloons. And flowers. My very earliest memory is so strange, as I was truly tiny and my Nana said I was just past two when this happened. I was dressed for outdoors with long stockings high-top shoes and a big brown sweater. I had on a skirt not pants, my memory is walking in the snow down the path from our front steps to my Nana's cabin and there was a huge pine just beside her front door. I stooped down to see what was growing in the snow. I squatted with my elbows on my knees and stared at violets so purple and green there in the rotted pine-needles at the base of the tree where the snow was just melted. Oh it was lovely and it made a lump in my throat. I was full of an emotion I couldn't even name as at that age I only had a tiny vocabulary. My Nana came out and said to come in the house but I wanted to look some more. And that is all I remember of it. But I can still bring forth that memory when ever I want to and for some reason I never have forgotten that "Picture" and the emotion it created.

I read some of the articles above and it was truly fascinating the contrast between the tallest woman in the worlds complaints about her tallness being a disability and the Chinese woman who's shortness was a disability so much that she had her legs lengthened. What a world ....Yet it is wonderful that even with these disabilities these women had resources to assist them in their troubles.

I always have high hopes for our worlds problems too. I truly believe we will find a way to peace in the Middle East and I have high hopes that it will include resolution of the Palestine/Israel problems.faith

I have very high hopes of seeing a world where we can all respect one another and war will be unheard of.

I have hopes that those who have much will automatically reach out to those who have nothing.

I have high hopes that one day they will have a cure for all cancers and no one will have to lose a child or a husband before their time any more.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I have high hopes that there will be no more war too. I also have high hopes that one day all children will go to bed well fed, and no child will have to fear an adult. Too many children have been kidnapped this year. I am glad that Elizabeth Smartt made it home safely to her family.

Amen to that Hats!

I am so proud of my kids the parents they have become!

Carolyn

Personally, I don't believe I have high hopes about anything. I have what one might call high goals. In my observations of "seniority" I've concluded that people who have something to look forward to are healthier and happier than those who don't. I am pretty much housebound, but because I publish three electronic literary magazines -- one a monthly, one bimonthly and the other published every three months -- there are always one or more deadlines ahead for me to work toward. Accomplishing that is reaching a goal.

Along with that is what I do with the Writers Exchange WREX, a writing group here in SeniorNet, consisting at the moment of writers who range in age from 53 to 92. There is a deadline for the exchange and critique of writing every two weeks. This means for me that I collate and send out every submittal which is sent to me at the time of the deadline to the senior writers who submit work, and I critique them all. Not only that, I write and submit a story, essay or book chapter for each deadline. The reading of the submittals is pleasure and something to look forward to, as are the comments we writers make about each piece and conversations we have between deadlines about writing and many other things. We're a friendly group with a love of writing in common, so each day's posts in the WREX discussion are something to look forward to, too.

I am realistic enough not to pin high hopes on what government leaders and leaders of nations do. Nor do I have unrealistic hopes about advances in medicine. I was married to a scientist for quite a long time and have a good idea how long it takes to research and develop an hypothesis, whether in the field of medicine or other scientific disciplines.

Reading several newspapers online, books online, or other hard copy books is also something to look forward to. I have a hope that I might someday publish one or more of the novels I've written. I'm nearly finished with the thirteenth one right now.

I think we ourselves have a great deal to do with realizing our hopes, whether they are high ones or small ones.

Mal

Talk about realizing hopes. A former WREX writer, Emma S. Willey, sent me an email yesterday and told me that after some years of trying, she finally has a publisher for her book, Prairie Rattlers, Long Johns and Chokecherry Wine. Emma has been trying for two or three years to find a publisher for this book, and finally has succeeded. She is 83 years old, and her doctor has told her she's legally blind. Her perseverance has paid off, and she has reached her goal. This book is Emma's first. It is about growing up in South Dakota, including living in a sod house. I have published chapters of it in my electronic magazine, Sonata in the past and highly recommend it to you.

There is another writer in WREX, Louise Harrigan, who had surgery for uterine cancer the eleventh of March. Though she's facing radiation treatments, Louise has told me that she has an idea and is about to start writing a story for the April 12th WREX deadline. Something to look forward to and reason to hope.

Mal

MALRYN - I'm with you. High hopes were great when I was young. Goals, even if they are a bit unrealistic, work better now. I rather envy anyone past retirement who still can grab onto those idealistic hopes - eternal youth? But then, are they the ones who are most devistated when sudden losses hit? With my more cynical realism, I can still get a lot done, but I manage to laugh at life (and death) with all its fickle suprises.

Ginger, I love all the quotations that you put in here.

And, Faith, what a beautiful memory, flowers in the snow!

Mal, not only do you have a high hope type of life with your publishing work but your two stories of the contributors certainly point to high hopes.

Benjamin, are you called a curmudgeon in your family? You sound just like my husband, who believes in sensible expectations. Not pie in the sky!

But, just think of the possibilities when people dream and have high hopes. Ooooooops, there goes another rubber tree plant!!

Just thinking. "High hopes", to me, are those things for which there is a distinct possibility. Some of the things I found here are more in the category of wistful dreams. No more war would be the greatest news of all time, but definitely falls in the category of wistful dreams. I have no real hope of it coming to pass, much less "high" hopes. ...Babi

Here's another story of a lady I know. She was born oldest of six children. Her mother died when she was 12. She then helped her father raise the children until she was 29 yrs old.. At that time, she entered a convent,, giving up her office job to the youngest of the six children. She attended college gaining a degree in math and accounting. Teaching and being principal in several schools, until she was 73 yrs of age, she "retired", in charge of a small group of retired nuns. They were living in an old Catholic high school,with a chapel, kitchen and class rooms. She noticed that there were a great number of newcomers to our country living in the neighborhood, who had problems with our language and therefore were unemployable. So, she opened some of the classrooms(received supplies(typwriters, adding machines etc. from other schools) where she and part of the little group of retirees taught EASL plus office skills to these people. She also saw that they could start up a Montessori school for the neighborhood children and again she went out searching in the other schools for supplies. Out of those classes came employable workers, several whom went on to get college degrees. When the diocese decided to sell the school, the sisters were moved to a small house in a nearby suburb. There they spent most of their time visiting the parishners plus delivering Meals on Wheels and collecting from the local restaurants for the Food Bank. This lady lived to age 83 and would have continued on doing this work if she hadn't been hit by a car while delivering Meals on Wheels. She always had ideas and she acted on them!

Here's a link to a site telling about having adventures even tho' a person might be physically or mentally challenged. <High Hopes Adventures

High Hopes Adventures offers interesting possibilities for handicapped people if they can afford them. When I was growing up and going to school and college there were no exceptions or advantages like ramps and easy access for handicapped people, of which I have been one almost all my life. I think people who are challenged physically or mentally are as different as people who are not handicapped are different from each other. There are some who will do everything they can to live a full life and others who will not.

Once in this discussion Ben Lewis called me one of the most stubborn people he had ever met, and I think it is a stubborn determination to succeed at something or other that's kept me going these almost 75 years, more than any high hope I ever had. I also think I would have been this way without a handicap or disability. I guess in some circles this is called drive. Some people have it and others don't.

Mal

Here's another example of High Hopes. The author Dominick Dunne did not begin writing till he was 50 and I believe in his last article he says he was not published until 53.

One of my new heroes just died, Harriet Doerr, 92, lyrical award-winning author who downplayed her social status as heiress to a railroad fortune and won a devoted critical and commercial following with three books, all published after she turned 73.

Known for her sharply beautiful, economical prose—she could labor over a sentence for a hour—Doerr based much of her writing on time spent with her family in Mexico, where her husband ran a mining business.

She returned to college at 65 on a dare from her son, studied creative writing and went on to publish the 1984 novel Stones for Ibarra, which won the American Book Award.

It's never too late, my philosophy is dreams are cheap, why not aim high?

ginny

Lorrie Gorg, who is very active in Books and Lit as a discussion leader, received her college degree when she was in her seventies, even though she had a hearing problem. Robby Iadeluca, also a Books discussion leader who works fulltime as a Clinical Psychologist, and is in his 80's, worked for and received his Ph.D. when he was in his fifties. People like Lorrie and Robby deserve a lot of applause and praise for realizing their hopes at an age when all some people seem to want to do is think about their youth and the past.

Mal

High hopes

It was people with wistful dreams and acted on them who got women the vote.

It was people with wistful dreams and acted on them who changed vicious labor laws

It was people with wistful dreams who helped to abolish slavery.

Our world needs idealists.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I never thought of it in quite that way. Without idealists, the world would not see change. Before our life is over, we might see a cure for cancer and other diseases. We don't know. Is it fair to take that "high hope" from children and adults who are suffering?

Just recently, the Amber Law was enacted in some states. This will and has been the cause of many children found who were missing. Some idealistic person thought about change and because of that person's high hopes many children will be saved this year.

Carolyn, yes, idealism is important where changes are to be made.

Realizing that you are a good deal younger than I am and that you probably have more stamina than I do at this time of my life, I must say with respect that it takes a younger person than I am to follow through and see idealistic dreams and hopes to fruition. It's my opinion that idealism without action amounts to nothing more than well-meant hot air.

In the United States Susan B. Anthony was a formidable force in the cause of women's suffrage. At age 29 she began a campaign against abolitionism and a campaign for temperance. She met Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who, at age 28, was a driving force behind the 1848 Convention and wrote the Seneca Falls Declaration. That Declaration states among other things: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men and women are created equal. . ."

Stanton wrote many of Anthony's speeches, and together they enlisted the aid of young women their age and younger who fought for, and, over the years, ultimately won suffrage for women in this country.

When I was 28 and 29, I was active as a leader in all kinds of potential reforms because I had youth on my side. As a woman in her mid-seventies, the only clout I have as an idealist is my voice and my pen. Now what I can offer is my support of movements for change; I am not able to lead them any more.

My point here, and Ben's ( if I may be so bold ) is that there comes a time when idealistic goals must be delegated to others, while we stand back and are available to give voice to people much younger than we are, to the fact that the realism we have learned through years of experience exists. We are the leavening agent in this process now.

Mal

MALRYN - You and I both know stubborness, perserverance, and endurence are all the same thing. What I call it depends on who has it and the situation. When I sat up all night working out a math problem, it got one of the nicer names, but when somebody has to put up with me day in, day out, it is always bull-headed stubborness.

I always figured younger folks are the accelerators and older folks need to be the brakes. If they work as a team, they can get places, but with all accelerators and no brakes they are a danger to themselves and others. Of course, if both kinds go all out, nobody gets anywhere.

I am still a risk taker, but now I need darned good odds.

Yup, Ben, accelerators and brakes.

My post #562 should read for abolitionism, not against.

Mal

Mal- you have done your dash now and you deserve to have these years to do things you really enjoy. I must say I am exhausted with all the communications I have been doing lately regarding issues close to my heart.

You know even writers can make a difference in social issues. I am not sure about the American writers but Dickins brought a lot of social issues into the public arena by way of his novels. I am sure there are writers from every nation writing about issues dear to their hearts.

Carolyn

There is also musicians. Songs about world and social issues. Golly there are lots of avenues to make people think!

Carolyn

You're right, Carolyn, and that's what I said. ". . . . the only clout I have as an idealist ( now ) is with my voice and my pen."

But, Mal, remember that the pen is mightier than the sword! You may have lots of things to do or say before resting on your laurels. Seems to me that you have not slowed down yet, just switched methods or horses. We are not all leaders but loyal followers count for something also. When we know that we are occasionally supported, the road gets long and tiring.

Carolyn, oh yes, music! Remember the Guthries and Dylan? Poets and musicians have their political clout,too. Sandberg? Who else? They all had their own way of letting the public know how they felt.

Ann, the day I'll rest on my laurels (what laurels?) will be when they take me out of here flat on my back, feet first. ; )

Mal

I wonder if anyone else would like to try a robot dog. I sure would. I hear they have robot cats too in Japan. Think how clean they would be. And no torn furniture. My Siamese mamma cat tore up a sofa and two arm chairs clear down to the wood and then some. After 12 years of clawing they were a pretty sight indeed. Of course I don't see how a robot pet could replace that living warmth and the "soul" of a beloved pet. Could it lower bloodpressure to pet stainless steel? I am just contemplating the aricle I read. I really have no high hopes that a robot dog would be better than a living little mutt. Faith

But could a robot cat give you a purr or greet you with a mew or butt you with his head. Could a robot dog greet you at the door and show you his unconditional love. Now if they had a robot that could mop the floor and wash the windows, etc. - that would be my kind of robot.

MALRYN....like you, I am using the only clout I have as an idealist, my voice and pen (or should I say, my keyboard). Like Carolyn, I keep writing....to politicians, to newspapers. I also attend rallies. Like Carolyn, I am feeling worn out, and at times, feel that all my work is in vain, which is probably why I haven't joined in here...my high hopes are a bit low at present. However, I feel it is very important to stay true to my principles and values, to myself, and to my beliefs, so even though I feel like giving up at times, I soon rally, and continue my efforts.

What's helping me is my daughter's unplanned pregnancy, her original comment when she found she was pregnant... Mum, I don't want to bring a child into this world the way it is now. Whenever I get discouraged, I remember how important it is to keep using my voice and pen.....to do all I can to work for Peace, for my new grandchild, for all the other young people in Australia, in the world.

Bobbie

We all have high expectations and high hopes. How else could we go on in this world? I think that hope and faith in the future is a necessity.

Yes, Bobbie, I remember my grandmother's saying: "I don't envy anyone raising kids in this world today." She did have a point! And she made that statement in the early sixties when TV seemed to be taking over the world. We never know what's in store for us or our children.

Here's link to another article, this one about a hope for fishing in Scotland:High Hopes for Scotland's Fish Hatcheries

I had to laugh at the two posters who made all the same remarks about the robot dog or cat. My husband just about fell over in shock and awe when I told him about it. Purdue is his alma mater and he said that they have missed the point of having an animal to pet and hold and care for. Gave him shivers just thinking about petting a piece of stainless steel. Me, too.

But in that same vein, did you read the article about the robot helping the stroke patient. Now I consider that the better way to go.

I wonder what folks said to my parents? My brother was born in 1933 and I came along in 1935. Talk about a tough time to have kids!

Yes, Benjamin, and she was speaking to me at the time. I had two babies at the time. My brother and I were both born in the '30's and just yesterday, I found my old baby book. Hadn't read it in 40 years or longer and found that my parents were delighted when we arrived. They didn't seem to be depressed by the depression. Just took it in stride.

And speaking of taking things in stride, read this wonderful site:Ride That Horse

ANN - After my son was head injured (at age 26,) he was able to attend an Easter Seals camp in Western Washington. Even though he was confined to a wheel chair, he was able to ride when helped on a horse. Because he had ridden and learned to swim before his injury, he was able to ride and swim quite easily, so really enjoyed the camping. It saddened me that I could not take care of him in some country setting which would have allowed more of such activities. He might have thrived and even still been around. (He died in 1992 of sudden onset pneumonia in the nursing home where he lived his last eight years.)

Benjamin, I have a good friend who spends one day a week at a horse stable where she helps out with the challenged riders. She loves it!

Sorry to hear about your son. Heartbreaking to lose a child. We are not supposed to outlive our children!

This is my first post. I have read some of the other messages and feel this is the place for me. I am 72, live in WI. Enjoy nearly all subjects I still get passionate about current events, music, all thought provoking subjects. Please help me get started. Thank You, Laurtel

Welcome Laurtel. If you go HERE, you will find links to over 600 discussions here in SeniorNet. Click any of the links on that page, and you'll be at whichever one interests you.

Mal

Hello Laurtel! welcome welcome! We are so glad that you ended up in here but tell us how that happened. Did someone suggest "Curious Minds" to you and was it one of our regular posters or a newbie like yourself? If you prefer books try our "Welcome Center" for a well informed heading with all kinds of book links. Do you know about using "links"? If so, why not read some of the links posted up in the header and tell us how you feel? We would love to hear from you!!

ANN - Yes, it was hard losing him, but much harder watching him living a half life as a cripple confined to a nursing home because he had little memory for new things and no judgement at all.

But then, who decreed we aren't supposed to outlive our children? Earlier times and still, in some other countries, parents lose quite a few children before they even reach adulthood. It is only in developed countries in the last half century or so that we can take for granted our kids will outlive us. That is why we have to restrict the number of kids we have now, which is more unnatural than having a bunch a losing some.

If I have any high hopes from medicene, it is that techniques will be developed to repair damaged brains. Also, I hope before too long in this country, we will get religion off the backs of doctors enough that a severely brain damaged person of any age will routinely be allowed to die. There is simply no reason for them, their parents, or society, to keep such folks alive at a huge cost to taxpayers and a bigger emotional cost to them and their families. No one would be that cruel to an animal, no matter how loved it is.

Since I have a brain-damaged son, I completely agree with Ben.

Mal

Ben,

Hear, Hear.

It would be nice if this country would let the Medical Profession allow not only Brain Damaged but others whose quility of life is nil to die. People who are on life support but are essentialy dead are not allowed to go off life support because of the objection of certain groups. Old people who beg to be allowed to die are refused that privilage. I have told my family that if it comes to going in to a Nursing home I want someone to knock me in the head and get rid of me.

Tiger Tom

To me, life that is permanently dependent on a machine is not life...it is interference with the natural course of events. Yet there are others who continue to hope for a miracle, and I cannot see that their right to their "high hopes" should be taken away by others. It is a painful choice, but unless it is my choice, then I should have nothing to say about it.

I believe I have made it clear to my own children that I would not want to be dependent on a machine, and I'm sure they will respect that. My own "high hopes", fortunately, do not end with death. ...Babi

Yeah, Babi! good for you! Your "high hopes" don't end with death! I like that mindset!

Well, has anyone found any more high hopes articles? I found one about the charity for Children with death threatening diseases. I will go look at it and put a new link here.

Well, the story is so short on that page, I decided to just leave my explanation of it, as enough.

In looking around for some other 'high hopes' programs, I came across this government program, "High Hopes" which was introduced by Pres. Clinton to help see that US disadvantaged children are better prepared for college:

"I also ask this Congress to support our efforts to enlist colleges and universities to reach out to disadvantaged children starting in the sixth grade so that they can get the guidance and hope they need so they can know that they, too, will be able to go on to college."

--President Clinton, State of the Union address, January 27, 1998

Here's the link to an archived article about this program.

--President Clinton, State of the Union address, January 27, 1998

Here is the archived article about this program. I wonder what happened to it?

http://www.ed.gov/offices/OPE/PPI/highhopes.html">High HopesProgram

Sorry for the mess above but I didn't do my corrections quick enough and I got shut out of the editing possibility.

We do not keep people here on life support indefinately. There is a certain time frame and then the family are given the option of turning off the switch if the patient is considered to be brain dead or will never be able to function in any way such as swallow food- I have never heard of anyone here being tube fed indefinately. I guess you could ask for permanent tube feeding for a relative if you had unlimited money.

Carolyn

Some patients defie all the odds and survive the machine being disconnected and even wake up at a future date. It is only our technology that keeps some people alive so if people do not want to live on life support and have this in their will their wishes should be respected. Patients in end of life care are often asked here if they want to be resuscitated if they go into cardiac arrest. Many opt not to be resuscitated.

Carolyn

I have stated in my will that I do Not want to be resuscitated and told All of my relation that when it is my time to go Let me Go Please.

Ann, I just Loved the Midi of High Hopes and enjoy it so Much when coming in here and I do have High Hopes that this War we are in will End soon with as many wounded and people passing to the other side will be a small number as posiable.

Ginger

GINGER....My Mum had the same thing....No Code.....Yet, they they ignored it, even though my sister pointed out that Mum had asked to be allowed to go. That was a hospital in the San Fernando Valley. I had to fly back there and make a stink before they finally honoured Mum's request. She was in her mid-nineties, with NO quality of life. About the only organs that weren't past their 'use by' date were her brain, heart and lungs. For the past 5 years she told me she felt like she was imprisoned by her heart, which kept on beating when she was ready to go. She had 90 years of quality life, and the last 5 were quantity with no quality. I felt she should have been allowed to die with dignity.

Bobbie

Thanks for your return post imprisoned by her heart is such a wonderful way of saying things as her heart kept beating when she wanted to let go. (quality) of life I understand so well that was a good thing on your part make a stink and have Your Mothers wishes carried out. I hope my family does that also. Thanks again.

Thanks, Ginger. Mum had made me promise that when she was ready to go I would insist they follow the No Code, so I followed through with it. She was semi-conscious but they were keeping her alive with drips, oxygen, etc, then keeping her medicated so she couldn't pull out the tubes. When my continual 'stink's' finally got through to them and they took her off everything, we had a wonderful day together, with her lucid, and actually smiling, because she was just about to go join Dad. She thanked me profusely and asked me to give her permission to go, which I did. Meanwhile, hospital staff and Doctor's treated me like I was a murderer.

My daughter went back with me to say goodbye to Mum. On the plane flight home, I made her promise that when it was my time to go, she'd do the same for me. However, Doctors and hospital staff are different here, same as NZ. When it's time to go, and both patient and family approve, one is allowed to go. I'm like both Mum and Dad....I live every day to the fullest, but when it's my time to go, I want to be able to go with dignity.

Bobbie

We also have a "no resuscitation" rule in our medical wills. My mom asked to be released long before she died but we honored her wishes and my sister, Mary, and her daughter were the last ones with her as she slipped away.

Unfortunately, in the state of Indiana, once a feeding tube is installed, it has to be kept there and we a friend whose mother took four years to leave this old earth after having a devistating stroke and being left a vegetable. She was in her '90's. What is it we are afraid of?

Did anyone try for the Rooftop Gardens and get the midi instead? I will go see what's up there.

Bobbiecee, have you read "The True History of the Kelly Gang" by Peter Carey. My friend who serves in the juvenile detention teaching these kids really related to the story put forth in the book. Says it was listening to her students talking about their lives. What do you think? Is there no hope for these children?

Ann,

Death with "Dignity" that is the operational word.

There isn't any Dignity in being hooked up to a machine daily, having your Diapers changed constantly. Not knowing those around you. A Vegeatable.

Tiger Tom

When my 91 year old mother was in the hospital, a copy of her living will was clipped to her medical record that the doctors and nurses refer to. We had no trouble at all. I guess it depends on your local hospital.

I believe the hospitals do need a written document, like a living will, in order not to treat a patient. And if I'm not mistaken, there are more recent laws (here in Texas) that require regular updates on these documents for persons residing in nursing homes. Also, I remember something about an ambulance being summoned (when it should not have been), and the EMT's saying they could not accept the DNR. Bottom line was, if the patient was not supposed to receive emergency resuscitation, the ambulance should not have been called.

Basically, it's a good idea to know just what the laws are where you live. ...Babi

I cared for both of my parents and my daughter in the nineties and it was quite an education. Here are a couple of legal facts in all fifty states that you may not be aware of. First, if you have all the paperwork signed, sealed and filed; it won't amount to anything if your doctor doesn't agree.

If said doctor doesn't feel the same, he does not have to follow your directive if he doesn't want to and the state will side with him as will the medical community. If you are aware and object, he can cite that you are not thinking clearly and forestall your wishes.

The same with your family or legal caretakers. If they feel differently then you, they can tell the medical community to follow their directive rather then your own. If you are incapacitated, you won't be able to say otherwise.

The only legal recourse in either case is forethought. Make sure your doctor agrees with your choice or that it is your right to choose and add a legal, notarized provision now to the effect that if either the doctor or legal rep feels differently, they must adhere to your wishes or you wish to nominate someone else to serve as doctor or rep and state the nominees in notarized print. And yes this is a countrywide ability for both the doctor or rep to transpose their wishes over yours and it is legal!

I really do not have high hopes. I understand that medically, both an optimist and a pessimist have no real difference in living longer. It is the realist or pragmatist that surprisingly polls higher then either of the other two!

I do have high expectations for myself however. These are to be open to new knowledge and to accept that others may have a point. I spent many years being against any real criticism and it was hard for me to accept conflict; to separate my self worth from the criticism. It was only as I grew older that I became more confident and accepting of my own place in the world.

It is odd that to become more pragmatic and accepting, you must lose everything and have most of your perceptions ripped from you. It is only then that you may become a better human or else lose your grip and your way.

ANN....I have read the Kelly Gang book. Re hope for children, my opinion, having worked in Corrections for years: Once kids get into the juvenile detention system, they seem to become involved in the crim sub-culture, a form of acceptance in a group....and they also tend to be in the drug sub-culture as well. In many cases, they graduate to 'adult' prison. It takes strong intervention by a role model to encourage them to break out of those 2 sub-cultures when young. Otherwise, they tend to stay in it until they start to 'grow up' between ages 35-50. IMO, action needs to be taken before they get into the detention phase of juvenile detention.

Bobbie

Thanks, Bobbie, I will pass your wise words on to my friend. This book really depressed her!

Yes, death with dignity is where we all agree. And, Angel, is that true about the doctors, the state and your designated POA's being able to ignore your specific wishes? Why do the hospitals always approach a person with the questions as to your wishes and have you filed a medical will? And, there is always a set of papers at the hospital that you can sign. What's their point there?

I don't have all the answers, but one sister is a nurse and I went thru that with my father's decision to stop eating. The physician wanted to declare him incompetent and insert a feeding tube. We had to find a doctor who would respect the issues and decisions faced by my father.

The hospital always favors the doctor and sometimes the person in charge of medical and legal details. As unfair as it is, everyone needs a heads up as to others's personal beliefs as impacting yours.

Angelface, your post really startled me. I had no idea the physician could override patient and family wishes. Family, maybe, if he feels it is in the best interests of the patient. But the patient's wishes? Well, one right remains intact here. One can always fire the doctor off the case and get another one, surely.

What happened to high hopes? This is getting downright un-hopeful. Bring on the balloons, please, and find the organ grinder!...Babi

I think it is Greed sometimes for doctors to keep the patient alive against there will.

I think too many of us are too pragmatic to have high hopes right now. More like genuine expectations rather then high hopes or high expectations.

A good day for me is a day with no unexpected bills or unrealistic expectations by others dogging me. Or lately, a good day is a working PC!

I agree with you, Angelface.....at this point in time, it's hard to have any high hopes....for peace, or values, principles and morality among world leaders, etc. More like a cynical realism which is pervasive in my country, a realisation that we can write letters, etc, but are essentially powerless in the face of 'leader's' determination to further their own agendas...which include power and glory for themselves.

The only high hope I can grasp on to at present is that my daughter's pregnancy will be trouble-free, that she will give birth to a healthy child.....then hope that this child isn't being born into a world which will forever be war-torn.

Bobbie

I have High Hopes of Peace on Earth Good Will to All if Not in Our day then Soon in the days to come for our Children and Grandchildren sake.

Senior Nets Books and Literature is Setting a Good example of how to disagree with Much Respect for All.

The Abraham's Journey Thu Thee Faiths discussion here in Books Has done just that but so do are Our other Book discussions show Much Respect for each other. So I have High Hopes.

Ginger

I have High Hopes of Peace on Earth Good Will to All if Not in Our day then Soon in the days to come for our Children and Grandchildren sake.

Senior Nets Books and Literature is Setting a Good example of how to disagree with Much Respect for All.

The Abraham's Journey Thu Thee Faiths discussion here in Books Has done just that in Our times of trouble with different beliefs and Faiths. Our other Book discussions show Much Respect for each other. So I have High Hopes.

I sign my name for people who are just coming in here observing us and new to computers and may find posts to long to remember who is sayin what as I remember those day for me. Ginger

but I got the no access to the first No Problem as children say so am explaining what happened. Smile

That's OK, Ginger. We love you anyway. Hug.

Thank You So Much. (((Hugs))) backatch.

Ann, as always you came up with a great subject. How do you do it?

I suppose I've had high hopes all my life. I still do. Perhaps some may think my high hope are not so high but for me they are and for now they will do. In life some of my expectations were realized, others were not. Some of those high hopes that came to fruition were wonderful, while some others that never materialized were devastating, however, that is life.

I suppose the young men and women killed in all our wars had high hopes also. Too bad they and their hopes never had the same chance we did. I Wonder what they would've accomplished. Well, we will never know.

I once read an article that a person always had to have a goal to strive for regardless of there age for a good mental health status.. I agree with this that is if a person is in reasonably good health.

Lorrie, I congratulate you for reaching your goal of a college degree while in you were in your seventies. Lorrie, your achiement gives credibility to the article I just wrote about. there are quite a few remarkable women here on SeniorNet

Bill H

Yes, BillH, this whole site if full of remarkable people. Ain't technology "GREEEEEAAAAATTTT"? Let's hear a Tony the Tiger roar for all of us!!

Speaking of high hopes made me remember that wonderful lady in Florida who saved the swamps for our children to see and enjoy! For you and me too! She worked on it her whole adult life, into her 80's or 90's, I believe. I'll see if I can't find her site. I have seen it here on the net(back in the olden days). Yes, here we are: Defender of the EvergladesAnd another:Visionary of the Everglades

The article about the rooftop gardens in Toronto is a good one also. Some people just never give up.

As to my high hopes, its amazing that I always seem to get what I HOPE for or something better! Better does not mean terrific but something that teaches me a lesson about life.

High Hopes don't necessarily mean aspiring or wishing to be a space astronaut, captain of an aircraft carrier, or living in a palace with marble halls and the like. No. Your lofty hopes can be anything you wish. They can be small or large.

Five years ago, soon after I reached my 72nd year, my hope was to learn how to use a computer well and efficiently. I thought why not, if others can do it so can I. So I bought a very basic computer.

Well, now that I have it what do I do with it? I went to Barnes and Noble and bought some "Dummies" books, took some off campus classes in word processing, the Internet and basic computer repair. In a few months time I was managing my computer fairly well.

Then happily I found SeniorNet. The lady technicians there taught me HTML and how to make tables and headings. Ladies, I do sincerely thank you for that. Some questions still needed answering so I visited SeniorNet's Computer Question and Answer folder. I learned a lot more from them.

I figured well I'm ready for a new fangled computer with all the bells and whistles. I went to a local computer store, saw the one I wanted and asked the salesman some questions about it. Thanks to what I learned I understood what he was explaining to me and better yet I was able to ask him intelligent computer questions,

My new computer along with a magnificent photo scanner was delivered this past Christmas Eve. How about that! I'm certain that I now understand a computer as well as any senior in high school and that is saying something for an old guy.

By the way, that scanner is what I use to post all those Birthdays you read in the Welcome Center. Some HTML editing is needed to create breaks and such, but oh the typing it saves me.

Come to think of it maybe that wasn't such a small hope)

Any hope you have is never small. Your hope is always lofty.

And, yes, I still have my old very basic and reliable computer.

Bill H

Reading through these diverse posts has been a pleasure for me. Today I was sad, but after reading all the interesting points expressed here, I'm much happier. Thanks for brightening my world!

You have done much the same thing I have but I have not yet accomplised what you have but I have HIGH HOPES.

My start was a Webtv and then on to a Gateway Computer with AOL and have the rest of my life to do what I love best, Learn.

I am glad that you are Happier. Is Not Senior Net just the place to make Us Happier.

Mahlia (Persian)

Good to see you posting. I don't go to sites where you usualy post to.

Anyway, I expect that you are saddened by the events in the mid-east.

I get the sense that the people in charge in the U.S. still do not understand the mid-east or the mid-east mentality.

tiger Tom

"Any hope you have is never small. Your hope is always lofty."

Bill, you said it so well. These have been such interesting posts and give us so much to think about. What if no one had hopes?

Would farmers plant crops? Would teachers teach or nurses nurse? Would the peddlar try to sell his wares? Would the explorer ever climb the mountain or cross the river? I can't imagine life without hope and would not want to contemplate what our lives would be like today if those who came before us had not had it. Just knowing tomorrow is coming and it may be better than today makes life worthwhile.

OOOOOOOOOPPPPPSSSSSS!! There goes another rubber tree plant!!
Good morning all. We are really putting our hopes to the test in the ME, aren't we? And, this morning brought better news than yesterday! My hope and prayers are for continued betterment of the ME situation.

The article on the rooftop gardens certainly had me smiling. Butterfly gardens on high rises! Whoa! We just went to the butterfly exhibit at our botanical conservatory here in Columbus. They are so beautiful! Took four kids and only one got hurt! He offered a free bird a ride on his hand and it bit him! Poor kid!

Ginger, I'm sure you will achieve your high hopes.

Bill H

This morning My/Our High Hopes on this war be over soon (looks like is happening).

ANN, there is a butterfly garden at the Museum of Natural History in Houston. Beautiful butterflies flitting about everywhere. Visitors are cautioned not to touch them, of course, for fear of damaging the fragile wings. BUT, if one wears bright colors or flowered prints, there is a very good chance that some of the delicate creatures will alight and give you a wonderful, close-up view. I can't tell you how honored I felt by such a visit. Whenever I visit there, I go with 'high hopes'. ...Babi

Bill H your story about "computer hopes" is so very much like mine. I expressed in 1990 that I must get a "word processor for home." I used one at work one of the very first Word Perfect operators. I bought a little basic word processor and when my daughter ask how much I paid she was upset because I could have had a little computer for just about that much. We began shopping for me and finally she gave me her Mac and she bought a new one, hahahah, but that was in 95 and I had the mac till about 98 and did have a good command of it when my son began building me PC's.He would build it and test it then bring to me. I would use it till we found all the bugs and in the meantime he would build another. After many different ones I now have an excellent one that I am running XP pro on and it is great and very stable.He would alwys take the one I had been using, fix anything I had found that was 'buggy' and sell or give to his family and friends. I still have the mac in a closet. It is so outdated now it is of no value.

I too find it is so satisfying to be able to talk to my grandchildren and send e mail and pictures to each other. I even wrote all my Dads game recipes up for my granddaughters along with little stories about their great.grandfather. They love getting it. I now can put the things I do on disc to save for them too as my latest computer has a simple to use cdwriter. I have now got high hopes that this year I will build a real web page. I had one before in yahoo but didnt ever understand how to use it properly so gave it up. So we will see what my high hopes bring.

Of course we all have our feelings regarding current events, political feelings, and spiritual and religious attitudes that lead us to have individual hopes. My ideas in those areas are best expressed elsewhere. Faith

Faith, great post!

Bill H

Yes, Faith, a wonderful post. Such high hopes for the future! May you get that homepage built. I too had one on Netscape and used it only for uploading pictures then forgot about it and it went the way of all things that one neglects.

Babi, it is an honor to have a butterfly land on you while you get a really good look at their beauty. We were able through a few large signs able to identify many of the different ones. I went to another garden last year in Indianapolis where the butterflies live in the botanical gardens. Also, saw my first exhibit of butterflies at Callaway Gardens in Georgia. What a peace-filled afternoon one could spend just watching them.

Faith, you and your son are very fortunate. How wonderful for you that he can build what you need, and how helpful for him to have a tester in the family. Sounds like a good arrangement to me.

With all you've been doing I think you'll reach your goal of creating a new web page. A few years back my son helped me make a web page, but he went so fast, that I never really understood what was happening, and he is not here to help me. I do work on our church web site each week, updating Sunday service data, etc, but it's not really creating anything. However, I have hopes that little by little I'll learn enough to update on work on one of my own.

Babi, I have hopes of someday getting to the Butterfly House in St. Louis. Several years ago I was visiting in Santa Cruz, CA at Christmastime. On Christmas Day my daughter took me to see a surprise -- it was all the monarch butterflies in the area landing on a tree -- eucalyptus, I think -- as they migrated to Mexico. What a thrill.

PEDLIN, how wonderful! Do the butterflies stop at that tree every year at Christmastime? It would be like the swallows at Capistrano, wouldn't it. I'd go out of my way to see that spectacle.

At present, my 'high hopes' are that I will be able to sell my '90 Honda. A bit of a comedown from some other high hopes, but definitely more immediate. ..Babi

I saw a wonderful movie on cable about the butterfly's migration to mexico and the big trees they just covered in the jungle where I assume finish out their life cycle. I can't remember the end of the movie. Faith

There are several places where those Monarchs spend the winter and we saw one of them back when we lived not too far from Pismo Beach. I think it's eucalyptus trees, or groves, that they prefer and it is indeed an incredible sight, seeing whole trees, trunk, branches and all literally covered with these butterflies. I hope I'm not mixing up my migratory "critters" but I THINK I remember that when the Monarchs return to the trees for their winter stay, they are not the same ones that left the previous year. In other words, it's not from actual memory that they return to the same spot - it's something a little more magical.

I once saw a monarch migration that was so impressive.

For those of you interested in the monarch, the Minnesota discussion has a link to "birth of a monarch". The pictures were taken by Tubaman, on of our seniornetters and really very interesting. I'm sorry I can't make a connection for you.

Right now, my high hopes are to finish a collage of counted cross stitching of 11 lighthouses using 75 colors on fabric 20 x 13 inches. Started last year and about half way done. Then maybe I can return to an even larger angel who still doesn't have her wings.

Seems like You have High Hopes for people to see the birth of the Monarch Butterfly so Here You go and if anyone is interested Just click here I loved it when Tubaman first posted it.

O'Sharny, Hope All Your High Hopes are met.

Ginger Who was Born in Minnesota

I wish to Thank You for your High Hopes Midi as I listen to it almost every time I come in here and I do at least when there has been a post and that is more than once a day.

Ann, You are doing Great on High Hopes.

Ginger, Who Loves Music but cannot carry a tune or play any musicial instrument.

Hi Tiger Tom - I think you're right, but the rest of us just must be patient. I thought you might have posted in the Abraham's Legacy discussion in the Religion folder to lend "a learned voice," or in the earlier discussion on ABRAHAM in the Books folder.

Some of the most beautiful butterflies I've ever seen were turquoise and silver, fairly large (about the size of my small finger)at the base of Mt. Damavand, North of Tehran, Iran. I have no idea of their name, but they truly were gorgeous.

Ginger - I just took the time to look at the Monarch Butterfly links -fabulous! And I was delighted to discover that it was the Monarch chrysalis that I used to find in our pastures at our old home - exquisite little bundles of a most beautiful, soft green with unbelieveable little golden beads magically decorating the surface. Every time I found one I meant to somehow find out what they were but you know how it goes. And then I saw the pictures on your link and immediately recognized what it was. Thank you so much for providing this experience for me - and I wish I could thank the two who so lovingly set up this experiment, then photographed and shared it with us. Honest, I'm really excited about this.

Diane Church, You are welcome and I am so glad you enjoyed the Birth of the Monarch and am so glad you are excited about it. Who would have thought that they start out in Minnesota, Not me. It is in the header of the Minnesota discussion. click here

This is there email address mlmxixq0@earthlink.net and it is posted on Senior Net and I am sure that they would like to hear that there work of art is still being apprieciated.

Mahlia,

HOpe all is well with you and your extended family.

I avoid any Religious discussions, safer.

Tiger Tom

Hey, Tom, don't be shy! We have a good discussion going in there------this week, anyway! Hahahaha!

Ginger, I have emailed that wonderful Monarch birthing to my grans who live here. THey will love it! Thanks so much for linking it here!

Well, some of you have simple high hopes--Babi wants to sell her Honda:<). Have you tried ebay, Babi? I think they have some connection with SN.

Ginger, I'm glad you are enjoying the music. I did have the words but have misplaced them. I'll try to look around today.

Persian, I think that your Iranian turquoise and silver butterflies are here too. Will look to see.

In looking around the net, I found this wonderful site of butterfly pictures for sale. With identifications,too. Butterfly Utopia

And here are those words:

(Source: High Hopes - words by Sammy Cahn, music by James Van Heusen copywrite - Hal Spaher Ltd. London 1959)

Next time you're found with your chin on the ground There's a lot to be learned so look around Just what makes that little ol' ant Think he'll move that rubber tree plant Anyone knows an ant can't Move a rubber tree plant

But he's got high hopes... he's got high hopes He's got high apple pie in the sky hopes So any time you're getting low 'Stead of letting go, Just remember that ant. Oops there goes another rubber tree plant. Oops there goes another rubber tree plant. Oops there goes another rubber tree plant.

When troubles call and your back's to the wall There's a lot to be learned, that wall could fall. Once there was a silly ol' ram, Thought he'd punch a hole in a dam; No one could make that ram scram, He kept buttin' that dam

But he's got high hopes... he's got high hopes He's got high apple pie in the sky hopes So any time you're feeling bad 'Stead of feeling sad Just remember that ram. Oops there goes a billion kilowatt Oops there goes a billion kilowatt Oops there goes a billion kilowatt dam!

So keep your high hopes, keep your high hopes. Keep your high apple pie in the sky hopes. A problem's just a toy balloon They'll be bursting soon They're just bound to go POP! Oops there goes another problem kerplop. Oops there goes another problem kerplop. Oops there goes another problem kerplop. Kerplop!

I am so Glad you liked the Birth of the Monarch Butterfly and sent it on to be apprieciated and I know the Tuberman's will also, so see if I can take a walk around the block and see them and maybe just maybe they will come in and see how much there work is apprieciated as it did take a lot of time and patience, I know as I was on the net observing.

Thanks for the lyric's to High Hopes, I enjoyed them.

Toe tapping Ginger who has High Hopes.

I see that I have misspelled Tubaman's name so no wonder I could not find him but just now did. Sorry for the miss spelling Tubaman. Whew that was a long walk. !!!!!! that's my sweat you see.

Ginger, you are a panic!! I feel like you are right here in the room with me and can even hear your voice! Too much!

Bless your heart, you are the "bees knees" as my aunt Eudie used to say. Thank you for the butterfly link. I bookmarked it to show my daughter who is always looking for monarch chrysllis on the milkweed she's planted in pots to lure the little darlings to her yard.

Howzat

Thanks Gals. Gee I thought Tubaman would be here by now as I email him.

bees knees, Ginger here.

O'Sharney, Must have flew away with thoses Monarch's

Hello!

I think this is the first time I've posted in this discussion group. I just read an e-mail from Ginger saying that she had posted a link to the Monarch pages on SeniorNet. All I can say is a big Thank You for the link and for all of your kind words (I read a few of the previous postings).

I don't know if it's possible to change our, now obsolete, e-mail address link on the Monarch pages (bottom of page . We recently changed it because of all the spam (some quite obscene) that we had started to receive. The one I am using now is:

mlmxixq0@earthlink.net

Again thank you for your kind words. We had a lot of fun raising that 1st Monarch, I think back in July - August of 2000. We've raised some more in 2001 and 2002 but had some bad luck in both years (some of them didn't make it). This was very stressful for both of us and we haven't decided if we will ever do it again. Maybe we'll just watch them in our Milkweed patch, take a few pictures, etc., instead of bringing them inside in a hatching cage as we've been doing. As of last year we came to the conclusion that the very powerful flea & tick killer that we must use on our dog, Knickers, may have been hazardous to the Monarch caterpillar by him simply being in the same room with the hatching cage. We don't want to take a chance for that to happen. Anyway, the Monarchs don't arrive around here until late June or early July so we have some time to decide.

Tubaman

Thanks for stopping by and please do come back.

Ginger and Tubaman, what a treat to "meet" the author of the Monarch Butterfly page. Thanks so much for coming in to say hello, Tubaman.

Has anyone seen a great story of 'high hopes' here on SN? Would be interesting to look for one! I bet there are many here.

Ann, great topic and as usual your discussion "High Hopes" was very HIGH. It gave us all a chance to express a few of the hopes we had/have. Thank you for that.
I know Frank Sinatra is singing your praises.

Bill H

Well, I think that we are in the last day of this discussion and I want to remind you all that looking for other people's "high hopes" in the news on TV, magazines, newspaper and on the net is really fun to do and makes one feel humble that so many people are out there trying to improve our world in many ways. For instance, the Rooftop Gardens for Smog Control, the High Hopes-Therapeutic Riding, the Robot Who Helps the Stroke Patient, and so many more. Its a treat to read these articles once in awhile. They can cheer us or maybe give us an idea of something to do for someone else or maybe just give us a much needed laugh. You have all been so good to come in here and tell us of your "high hopes" or to discuss the above links. Its been fun to have you all here.

And, now, we look forward into tomorrow for another scintilating topic from Annafair! Be sure to check in as we start on "Inventions". Promises to be more than interesting. Lots of history of inventions---- coming up! See ya'll on Sunday!

Inventions

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb

NEW INVENTIONS? how new are new inventions and what do you think of the improvements of the OLD inventions.? Have you heard of something new you think you would like to try? Let us discuss some of the inventions we as seniors have seen come to pass.

Do you believe if man can conceive he can achieve? I am thinking of the Dick Tracy cartoon and a lot of the inventions suggested by the cartoonists. Of course there were many authors who also wrote about fantasy inventions and now seem like prophets. Let us spend the next two weeks sharing information about the inventions that have changed our lives, consider how they have done so and whether we think they were really good.

Click on a link and let's talk it over.

LINKS

Twentieth Century Inventions 1900 - 1925

Visions of the Future

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Annafair

Pat said the heading was in place and since I wont be able to post until after church tomorrow I decided to get the ball rolling tonight. Here I am sitting and typing and seeing my words on a monitor and know shortly you will be reading it wherever you are. Now I think computers are a great invention but there are so many others. According to Google I found out there are 6,000,000 patents recorded at the patent office. The Smithsonian has a collection of over a 1,000 models for inventions that were required at one time. Google also told me there were nearly a million sites about inventions.

I am not going to share what I think is the most important one but would love to see what each of you think and why. When you read the link are you surprised to find out how long ago some of our MODERN inventions were invented?

By the way there is even a site for odd inventions. I can share one..my husbands grandfather and father were inventors. The first one dates to the time when autos were open aired. It was called a DRAT I was thinking of it earlier and even have the original patent and number. It was a stay tite which may have been the name ..It showed this huge metal M holding down a ladies skirt while she was riding in one of those new fangled autos. He invented a few other things I will tell about later.

So who will go first now and tell about your favorite invention...anna

Annafair - this promises to be another interesting discussion.

I would love to start out by mentioning what a previous US Postmaster said back in (I'm guessing) around 1907 - to the effect that everything possible had already been invented and therefore, the Patent Office might as well be shut down.

Do you suppose he lived long enough to wish he could eat his words? Anyway, I'm glad he was wrong.

PS If anyone can tidy up the details on this one, please jump in!

What a great topic. And how serendipitous that this evening on TLC I saw a documentary on a collection of models of inventions for the patent office this gentleman collected. Some of these went on to be produced and many more sit in the model state waiting still.He has more than the Smithsonian and they are all so wonderful. He had a series of washing machines but it was 1896 before some one made a model that was a tub with a crank agitator and under the tub was a firebox. Before this one they all had to be filled with hot water from another source. This one never seems to have made it to production.

The first truly great washing machine I saw in use belonged to my uncle and was early twentieth century model perhaps 1915 or so and was still stored in my Uncles laundry but had been replaced with electric powered commercial laundry equipment . The old one had a huge wooden tub and had been used in his commercial laundry for sheets and towels. I remember it had a foot pedal and a crank to swish the agitator. The wringer was a separate double barrel that the wet stuff was lifted into and then it was cranked and spun around throwing the water out and it drained away through a hose into a drain on the floor.These had to go back for the rinse and then more spinning. Then these linens were hung on clothes lines before being ironed. My Uncle had this laundry for many years and mostly hired Chinese men to work for him plus he had a Hand Wash Laundry for Shirts and Fine Linen I was only a little kid but I could easily see why they advertised hand washing as special handling after seeing even the 1935 or so "modern commercial equipment". It was all pretty rough on the clothes.

At home it was 1936 and my moms sixth baby was a year old when we got our first washing machine. Until then it was boilers on the stove and tin tubs with hand wringing. She really worked hard at laundry and the washing machine with wringer seemed magical to us. Even electric lights didn't impress me like this machine did. Faith

Faithr, what a neat remembrance of the "olden days" you have here. My memory of the washing machine is helping my mother use her Maytag(electrically powered) in the early '40's with its agitator and wringer, where I once got caught and had to be rescued and released. The release was right there on the top, you just punched it down and the two rollers immediately stopped and parted company. I was up to my armpit before my mother arrived from the upper reaches of the house. What a day!

The only invention that I know of(today) in our family is one that my uncle claimed that my Portuguese g-grandfather invented. He was a blacksmith and managed to make a track and spike puller for the railroad. He never patented it but the Lake Erie and Western RR, where he worked, was most grateful for his ingenuity and used it regularly. Of course, someone else thought of this handy tool and applied for a patent, later in the century.

We(US) always have claimed the lightbulb which was Edison's invention but I seem to recall reading of other lightbulbs being invented around the world. And, remember, Tesla, the man who wanted us to use alternating current for lighting our world but Edison won that battle for a time and we had direct current when we first started to light the streets of America. Tesla sold his idea to George Westinghouse for a pittance and it became the standard eventually.

Annafair,

Some years ago, the U.S. Government used to publish a list of "Inventions Wanted" These were things that the Governmen or someone wanted to be designed and developed. It lead to a number of new things. Many of the things on the list were just to far ahead of the Technology of the day but I will bet that a lot of them could be developed today, if still needed or wanted.

I don't know if the Government still puts out this list or has stopped publishing it.

Tiger Tom

Now that was a washing machine Faith and I never realized it dated back to 1915. I am not sure when my father gave my mother a Maytag washing machine, I think I had started school. Before that "Aunt Annie", a dear Irish lady came on Mondays and Tuesdays to do the laundry. Three washtubs were placed on a wooden stand with a hand cranked wringer that swiveled so you could use it with all the tubs.

Mother and Aunt Annie would fill the tubs with water, The first tub with hot water, the second cooler and the last cold water. It was my job to take a rather dull paring knife and chip off pieces of Fels Natha or P&G bar soap as they filled the main tub with the hot water. Then I would use a long handled wooden spoon to help them melt. Both my mother and Aunt Annie would use a corragated washboard and scrub the clothes. They used the spoon to fish out the clothes because the water was too hot for their hands. They started with light colored clothes and worked down to the dark. Each batch was fished out and fed to the hand wringer. Rinsed well in the second tub, fed again through the wringer and then the final rinse and finally the last time through the wringer. My three older brothers wore white starched shirts to school and I remember once there were 17 on the clothes line. It was great when it was warm and a breeze blowing as it helped to blow the wrinkles out and make the towels fluffy. When it was winter the clothes were hung to dry in the basement and it was a chore to iron out those wrinkles and the towels felt like sandpaper they were so stiff. The white shirts and other garments were also dipped in starch that had been cooked in a big pot on the stove. Mother also used something called bluing to help the clothes look whiter. Sunday night she would set up the stand with the tubs and some clothes would be soaked so they would be cleaner.

Monday nights after dinner Mother would clear the kitchen table and sprinkle all the clothes needing ironing. They were rolled rather tightly as I recall and Tues am Aunt Annie would again arrive to iron. I think she was paid one or two at the most to help with the laundry. When daddy gave Momma the electric washing machine it was really special .and I too got my arm caught in the wringer helping to put the clothes through it ...I dont remember it hurting as much as I expected but it sure scared me...

What do you think was the most important invention ? Tomorrow I will tell you a wonderful use of our satellite systems...anna

Well as I said I was more impressed with the washing machine than anything in my lifetime and I am now 76. I did not have a phone until I was about 19 though use a pay phone regularly or a neighbor etc. Radio of course is my siblings choice of the best invention that we had access to in the 20 and forward. I got a TV in 1951 and a new baby and a new car. First brand new car we bought. So in my house also I had washer and dryer Kenmore's, dishwasher, freezer, telephone, TV, garbage disposal and vacuums and mixers and toasters. So the 50's is when I modernized!! All things I did not have in the home I grew up in.

But the thing I appreciate most now living in a Mobil home as an old woman (big grin) is my central heat and my coolers for summer. I can do without lots of things but these seem to add to the quality of life I appreciate and indoor plumbing of course. Can you imagine not having a hot shower whenever you want one? I could not stand that. At least I think I could not yet my great grandmother did not have indoor pluming until she was very old. Of course America was late coming to indoor pluming compared to Europe where it was common for centuries. Not everywhere but in many well to do places. And when I think it over I guess that is the best of all the things I have then, my bathroom and my heating and cooling.

This morning on TV I saw an advertisement for a little robot thing that vacuums the floor while your at work. There is an electric fence to keep it in the room you want it to stay in or you can let it go all over the house till it runs out of battery in about 3 rooms they said. Wow. The modern world will have more marvels than that to be sure. Writing this on this computer is a real miracle compared to the old mechanical typewriter and comptometers I learn to use in business school in the 40's. Faith

One of the most important inventions has been the computer. Otherwise, we could not all be communicating. The first computer was invented by Charles Babbage in 1837, but it was only described in great detail, and never actually built. He called it the Analytical Engine, a mechanical digital computer which, it is said, anticipated virtually every aspect of present-day computers. Charles Babbage (1792-1871) was an eminent figure in his day, a Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge in 1828 (the same Chair held by Newton and, in our days, Stephen Hawking). He was a close acquaintance of Charles Darwin.

Unfortunately, he could not raise the funds to actually construct his invention. It was only after the first electromechanical and later, electronic computers had been built in the twentieth century, that designers of those machines discovered the extent to which Babbage had anticipated their work.

Computers helped win World War II by breaking the enemy's codes. Nowadays, the computer is everywhere, and life would probably come to a standstill without it.

Do any of you remember the first computer you ever used? The first one I ever worked on took up a whole room, and the terminals connected to it were in another room.

Faith, I second the motion. I love central heat and air. I remember growing up with fans. My father would buy box fans for almost every room in the house. I remember him saying the air had to blow out and not in. I never understood what he meant. I felt hot whatever way the fans were blowing. When I could get away with it, I would make the air blow in and not out.

I remember my mother having "hot flashes." With central heat and air, I think her "hot flashes" would have cooled off quicker, but that might be wishful thinking.

Horselover, I think the invention of computers is very important. I remember typing class in high school. I typed on a typewriter. Now, young people learn to type on computers. I remember thinking the electric typewriter was so special.

If I had to choose one over the other, I'd go for central heating. What a true luxury. But central air? I don't know. I used to love the sight and feel of balmy breezes blowing through open windows, gauzy curtains billowing out into the room. I miss that. Of course, I guess the whole point of central air is when those balmy breezes DON'T blow. Fair enough.

My first experienc with computers was when I worked at Carte Blanche, back in the early 60's. I didn't work with computers myself but I remember seeing the computer room with all those spinning things going around. Also the trays and trays of computer cards - oh, what were they called - something to do with data entry and all the punched holes.

But my first time actually working with a computer was in the early 80's and my company had training sessions. What I remember was that we had, it seems, hours and hours of learning how to "boot" up the computer. It was so dull. Whoever knew the wonders that would come from those early days.

You have all mentioned some really great inventions...the reason I chose this topic was because I realized all of the inventions ..even ones that were new in my lifetime I took for granted.. Gratefully for making my life easier and interesting.

I chose the printing press cut because I think that is the best one. It opened the door to knowledge. Not just to the upper classes and clergy who used the handwritten word but to everyone eventually. It opened the mind to thinking and an easy way to put your ideas in a form to study and think about and invent.

Our ability to communicate with the written word has just stopped me cold when I thought of it. Learning to write, learning to read, talking to others and sharing knowledge. That as young people say IS AWESOME....

My first typewriter was called a student typewriter in a small case and progressed from there to a standard typewriter, an electric typewriter, word processor and finally a computer and this is my third LOL because they keeping improving them...And that makes me LOL

At the grand age or 75 I am WITH IT my grandchildren say. I can remember when I got my first computer 10 years ago some of the neighbors children heard about it and told their parents with awe..MRS ALEXANDER IS SURFING THE WEB!!!!!!!!

I have so much to share but I want to let you tell me what you think is marvelous. By the way I saw the robotic vac but I know right now it is really a toy...someday it will be just the thing I am content with a vac which is sort of self propelled ...I can think of a lot of NEW things I have purchased over the years and how they eventually were moved to the attic and to the dumpster. I bet all of you have a lot of things in your home that are outdated I KNOW I DO>..no one wants them ..because something newer is better..and I really dont know what to do with them...they look new and still work but no one wants a 8mm movie camera and projector, a reel to reel recording machine ..I cant even give away these things. What will tomorrow bring. One thing I do have to say What a great time to live..I know if my parents and grandparents could return to earth they would be amazed but if I could go into the future a 1000 years I would be interested but gee I grew up on Flash Gordon and Dick Tracy and The Jetsons...I think I would just say HEY they finally did it didnt they!!!!!!! Wow where will inventions take us? anna

Inventions that have changed the world have been mentioned already. Things like the washer that gave women different roles rather than just housewives certainly have changed the world for women. Many, many machines for construction, from road graders to nail guns have really changed the way working men work. Informational machines from the printing press to TV, the personal PC and cell phones have vastly opened the world to most of its people instead of just a few.

Many inventions have a negative side. Vehicles available to the masses have caused the destruction of all too many acres of good farm land. They also contribute to a lifestyle of too much stress and too little exercise for a healthy balance. We all know what TVs and computers have done to reading skills and how they have contributed to violence amoung young people. Even our wonderful indoor plumbing uses up good drinking water at a tremedous rate and adds greatly to water quality problems. The wonderful manufacturing machines which freed most children to attend school and allowed us to have cheap clothing and everyday products also produced assembly line jobs with problems in the workplace from boredom to carpal tunnel syndrome.

I enjoy the fruits of new inventions as much as anyone, but I have often wondered how many would come into production if some environmental damage (incuding to us humans) assessment were required before production could begin.

Good post, Ben.....I think there's a need to keep a balance, use the inventions, but sparingly. I don't know what you have there, but here, we have a code for energy saving appliances here. The lower energy draining appliances cost less. And then, using sparingly...ie not washing until one has a full load, etc. Here, we tend to hang our clothes on a line, actually our Hillman hoist, which can take 4 loads of wash at a time...rather than use a dryer. I have a dryer, but it's 20 years old as I don't like dryer dried clothes. Every house here comes with a Hillman hoist in the back yard. When we have a monsoonal trough, I let the dirty clothes build up until it fines up, rather than use the dryer.

I think the best invention is the computer....instant communication throughout the world. I read many world newspapers via the net. I used to go to my local newsagent and buy a number of them...now I get them, and many more, on the net. It's wonderful reading a wide variety of international newspapers with my morning coffee.

Bobbie

You're talking about mechanical inventions here. Mechanical inventions demand research and development just as scientific ones do. For that reason I'll say that the Poliomyelitis vaccine was the most important invention during my lifetime. Perfected in 1955, it was 20 years too late to help me, but look at the millions of lives it has saved worldwide. Unless you've experienced this life-threatening illness in a serious way, you'll never know how devastating it can be. Jonas Salk is my hero.

There have also been inventions of medical instruments and medical testing machines that save many, many lives. My former husband owned a business that dealt with them and later a business which made instruments for hydro-surgery. I have a friend now who is the founder and a partner of another medical instrument and testing machine company, and he tells me of new inventions that are perfected all the time. These, too, should be listed among beneficial inventions, I believe.

Mal

IMO, one of the more life- and culture-changing inventions is the birth control pill...the ramifications changed many facets of life in the 20th century and beyond.

When John and I have talked about discoveries, he always picks the transistor as the pivotal invention of the 20th century. Many of the things we've talked about so far, computers, cell phones, and other things we don't even connect with transistors are possible because of that one thing.

Please excuse me for being a mite mischievious for advancing my idea of a great invention that is used quite extensively around this home. May I point out how wonderful the MUTE BUTTON on the remote devices can be? And its usuage is the fault of the advertising industry who insist that all of their stupid ads be broadcast at a volume level at least ten percent higher than the program they are interrupting. How they can convince anyone about their product by first irritating their prospective audience is beyond me! My kudo to the guy who invented the mute button!

My son built me a transistor radio in 1954 for my birthday. It was very small in a blue case and used 4 C flashlight batteries. I had it for years and lost it in a robbery along with other stuff. I hated losing that little present worse than all the big stuff like tv and vcr they took. After he built my radio when he was only eight years old he built many radios for himself and became a ham operator licensed and all at age 12. His whole bedroom was a radio as it now is a computer. He also spent some time building tv's and he was a Major in the Signal Corp.He too tells that everything flowed from the ability to get transistors smaller and smaller.

I love those documentaries on discovery that show the Connections of all these different advances such as, without the microscope in the 1600's we woudnt have science advances that we do. All inventions of course start with the imagination and that is what fascinates me. Not the product so much as the ability to imagine that a picture could be sent over the air waves or at least through the air and recieved miles away. Once it is accomplished all the variations are just that like the wrist telephone and tv Dick Tracy had.

I can think of hundreds of little convenience's that we use in our daily life that were not available to me and my family when I was a little child in the 20's and 30's. And my folks felt very modern then. What was more modern than Art Deco Stuff. It still appears modern. I wonder who invented shoes that fit each foot? In the old museums- shoes are identical not l/r. Faith

Well said and My kudo to the guy who invented the mute button also. Yes.

Ginger, I like the mute button too. I think Faith mentioned transistor radios. I don't think my boys have ever heard of transistor radios. I owned a peach one and a blue one. Those transistor radios came in such pretty colors. They could fit in a guy's shirt pocket. They were really cute. Turned up loudly, I don't think they disturbed people like these "boom boxes" that young people carry around or put in their cars.

Life is a like a bowl of cherries compared to what used to be but we still have some pits to spit out yet.I remember and have here some where a transitor radio. Humm wonder where it is.

MAl I did not think of vaccines ..but of course they are inventions...since I had a cousin die from the effects of polio and a father in law crippled by the same I too consider Jonas Salk a hero.

The mute button...That is more than an invention but a blessing!

The more I look into inventions the more I appreciate them and the more I am appalled I really never considered them. Just accepted them ...I hope I can convey to my grandchildren the wonder and appreciation for all the hard work that goes into inventions.....

I do want to mention something special to me..Two years ago two widowed friends of mine took a round the world cruise. Perhaps all cruise lines have this but I only know the one they took had on board cameras that were used with sattelite relays so you could check in and SEE where they were. One day I checked in and they were at sea approaching the Panama Canal..it took some time and I just left the computer on and I TOO WENT THROUGH THE CANAL when they did. It was intesting to see the ocean in different parts of the world in real time and enter the ports when they did and see them debark. To me that was incredulous ...

The one advantage to being born when most of us were born is we have been without many of the conveniences and I believe survive without them if needed ..we appreciate all the good inventions and use them but if suddenly a calamity would return us to the "OLDEN DAYS" we would know what to do. I am not sure young people who have only known vacuum sweepers, microwaves, toasters, hot and cold running water, telephones and cell phones, computers and electronic games would know how to survive..Just thinking ...and thanks everyone for your continued good comments ...they are SUPER anna

Your father had the idea of cooling your home with fans half right. What is needed to cool a home, with outside air, is circulation. To achieve that you need the fans blowing in on one side of the house (preferably from the side where the breeze is coming from) and the fans on the other side of the house blowing out, with the doors to all rooms being left open. This creates a draft. This air moving across human skin that has a film of persperation on it causes cooling. By the way, the transom that used to be over each door in houses, of the middle classes and well to do, was put there so that air could circulate with the door closed.

Howzat

I think my parents were the best age to appreciate (or hate) fast changes and inventions. They were born in '04 and '06. My mother's two older brothers were named for the Wright brothers so she was born within a few years after man's first flight, yet she was still young enough to be playing golf when man walked around on the moon. She drove her father to work (in town) in a horse-drawn buggy and drove the horse back home by herself, yet handled a car with power steering and fluid drive, etc. until she went leagally blind when she was a little over 80. At least, by my time (1935,) inventions and changes were in full swing, except for a slow-down during the depression.

As far as changing history, perhaps we should consider gunpowder as if not the best invention, at least one with a lot of power to change things. It not only changed the way wars were fought, but more effective in changing the world was the way it changed the way man hunted.

Isn't it interesting that the inventor of dynamite, Alfred Bernhard Nobel, is the person in whose name the Peace Prize is awarded?

Mal

I think his invention of dynamite was the reason why Nobel established the Peace Prize. He knew the invention had unleased such great power of destruction, and he wanted to do something to reward those who worked for peace instead.

howzat - thanks for the info about the transom. I used to wonder about them and now I know!

Alfred Bernhard Nobel invented dynamite in 1866. He died in 1896.

The first Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to Jean Henri Dunant, the founder of the Swiss Red Cross, and Frederic Passy, founder of the first French Peace Society, in 1901.

First Nobel Peace Prize

Howzat, we had a transom in our bathroom. One time it was opened for some reason and a bird flew in. My mother had a fit. A bird in the house did not make her feel at all comfortable. It was definitely a bad day.

Mal, thanks for the information about the Nobel Peace Prize. I did not know who invented dynamite. The connection between the two men is very interesting.

What a marvelous topic! Haven't you ALWAYS wanted to invent something? I have! I have thought of lots of things I persnally thought were very clever but had no idea how to go about patenting it, you need an attorney and by the time I lazily thought of getting around to it, somebody else did it MUCH better than I would have, still...wouldn't you love a patent?? Just one? Let's patent ourselves here! haahahah

What would you SAY is THE most important invention of the 20th century?

Delicious to speculate!

Wonderful topic, Annafair!~

ginny

Howzat,

I remember Transoms in Hotel Rooms. Where we lived, in Washington State, never so warm that we needed something like that.

You remember the phrase. "Came over the Transom" When some one had or received something (Usually in the mail) that was unexpected?

Tiger Tom

The first really big patent of the 21st century may be the one for the mapping of the human genome (if it was finally allowed.) That happened the spring of 2000, even though the bulk of the work was done in the 20th century. No telling how much this work and connected research will improve prevention and healing for many human problems.

"Efpalinion excavation (ditch) is a mechanical wonder in the history of Mechanic Technology. this indicates the high level of scientific knowledge by the Hellene mechanics of the sixth century b.C. The great ancient Hellene mechanic Efpalinos succeed in opening a water supply channel (duct) through a mountain in order to supply with water the capital city of Samos (Pythagorion).

"The water supply channel (duct) consisted of three unequal parts. The first was on the land travelling 900 m. from the spring, it ended at the bottom of mountain Ambelos where it connected with the entrance of the channel (tunnel) which was the main construction. The channel (tunnel) was 1036 m. long and its excavation started simultaneously from both sides of the mountain. The two working groups met in the center of the channel and they had only 0.6 m. error !!"

Dean Kamen, who invented the scooter called "Ginger", also invented the iBOT wheelchair. Kamen's iBOT is an all-terrain wheelchair that can climb stairs, cross sand, and balance upright on two wheels, so the person in the wheelchair has eye contact with the person he or she is talking to.

Mal

Famous inventions A to Z

My Mobile home has transoms between all the rooms. Even the bathroom.It is about 6 inch's of open framed space above each door header and is filled with brass screen instead of glass so they are always an open passage for air to flow through.

That wheelchair sounds fabulous. I bet it is so expensive it is like Ginger....no one buys one. Well, a fellow in San Francisco has one of those Ginger things and likes it.

Do we really classify procedures as inventions or just objects. Well if they can patent the mapping of the human genome that is a method or a procedure not an object so I am a little mixed up on meaning. faith

I went back and read the Link- Visions of the Future- in the heading. Leonardo s workshop was most interesting and then there is a page on how to proceed with an invention in a classroom structure and all that article discusses from begining to end is machines and material and design etc so they are objects being invented not just an idea or a procedure or a method of doing something though I am thinking they do patent "abstract ideas" but am just wondering about all this. Faith

Tiger, I do remember the saying, "Came in over the transom". That's also what publishing houses used to (maybe still do) say to describe manuscripts that came in unsolicited. Now I think publishers call those part of "the slush pile".

Faith, mapping the human genome is a highly patentable process built on a computer program rather than a physical manifestation, like a toaster. In fact, some folks are starting to howl that medical research has "stolen" their DNA information and have patented it for use without so much as a by your leave or any remuneration.

Howzat

Howzat,

Drug companies are going in to Brazil and patenting things in plants down there and procdeedures used by the Indians along the Amazon for years. In one way it is a service to makind because of the destruction of the Rain Forest That is the only way the products of those plants can be saved but in another way it is patenting something that should belong to Brazil and the people who live there. I understand that Brazil is trying to put a stop to it but I don't know how successul it will be.

Tiger Tom

HANDS DOWN, I would have to say the most important invention of the 20th century is the computer. It has changed everything we do. It has revolutionized business, science, research of any kind, communications, leisure time, education,....what did I leave out? Information storage, retrieval and dissemination. Hmm...spying? The world will never by the same. ...Babi

National treasures. I keep thinking of the Elgin Marbles that the Greeks want back from England. I feel that the sculpture is better off in England, safe, well cared for (in a place that has temperature controls) and were all the world can (if they can afford to go there) see them, marvel at them. Now, the antiquities of Mesopotania have been lost, smashed, ruined. Would that they had been in a safe place! What kind of people would smash and grab their own history?! The Budas blown up by the Jaliban, irreplaceable artifacts. China covering over her history with water backed up by the Three Rivers Dam. So, yes, I am all for saving the information of the Amazon rain forest. Some one has to. The politicians there don't care, the people are ignorant of the facts, with the end result that the rain forest will eventually disappear. I'll be dead by then, but the world will be dying then, too. This planet will not survive the loss of the rain forests.

Howzat

Howzat,

You are right about the world being worse off after the loss of the Rain Forests. Trees moderate the worlds climate and thier loss triggers changes in the climate that are unanticipated and not necessarily favorable.

Tiger Tom

I still live without air conditioning and don't have a computer. I like having my sliding glass doors open so I and my 2 roommates can go in and out as we like. I like hearing and seeing the birds. But I would not want to be without electric lights indoor plumbing. I have been where there was no indoor plumbing and did survive quite well. I also survived 3 weeks after hurricane Andrew without electricity so I know if I had to I could. I like being able to drive my car where I want. I guess even though we don't have a computer our lives are still ruled by them. I am told my car has at least 3 in it. When I went to H.R.Block to do my income tax I was amazed at how fast the return could be made. Of course I was quite pleased to know I didn't have to pay any. And last but not least, I am so happy to have my MSN TV with its new printer attached to help me enjoy a little of this modern technology.

I was thinking yesterday about my first camera.An uncle gave me one for my 6th birthday ..it was a Kodak Brownie box camera. I still have the pictures I took with it...black and white of course .but clear and and not a sign of aging. I am not sure what camera we used when our first child was born but we used color film and I have to say they have faded ...which is sad...happily whatever camera we were using then we used black and white so all the later pictures are still good. Now I have a drawer full of cameras all outdated etc..it seems everything is going so fast !!!!!!I have a toaster that is nearly 50 years old ...it is a toastmaster and the bread goes down automatically and rises when the toast is done...I remember when we bought it ..our old one was kaput and when I saw this one I told my husband I wanted it ..It was all of 25 dollars and he argued we could by two or three for that amount ......well it still toasts perfectly so it was a real bargain..When my children married they all wanted one like ours...So for 75 up they each recieved one but I will bet they wont have them 50 years later.

Although we marvel at NEW inventions I would guess if we live long enough there will be some that will boggle our minds!Mine is already boggled.

I am truly grateful for the computer, the printer, the scanner and digital cameras..They are a marvel to me..but my grandchildren consider it a toy...of course they may be rather young ..the oldest being 10 but when they come over they want to use mine..I am not sure what channel has all the games but THEY know it and type it in...and of course they always want to send messages to the family...Their typing skills are outstanding.. I notice when they write thank you notes ( I just recieved one today) they print rather than write and the letters look like typed letters..

What a wonderful time to be living...and seeing how things have changed ...you are a good group with all of your thoughts and ideas and sharing...thanks and keep it up!!!! anna

annafair, you are right. I feel that we have lived in a most eventful period of history. I often think of the various things we have seen happen as well as the inventions we enjoy.

I would suspect that most of us has at one time or another come up with an idea that may not qualify as an world shaking invention but did a little job that was pleasing and worked quite well. Recently I had a problem whereby I noted that a potted plant I had placed, for lack of room, under the eaves of our roofline, was sheltered, but which made it without access to any rainfall that might come along. To overcome this situation, I tied a heavy metal nut to one end of a length of drapery cord and threw it onto the roof. The other end of the cord was placed into the center of the hanging pot. When the rains came, water running off the roof soaked into the cord and ran under the eave and onto my thirsty plant. Problem solved! Losalbern

Annafair - I had to smile when I saw how old you toaster was. We got our Toastmaster for a wedding present and it will be 54 years old in August. It has been used constantly and still pops up.

LOVE all the posts here, Annafair, you have a hit!

Losalbern, aren't you SMART! It's just that type of thing that is so satisfying!!

There's a magazine called Progressive Farmer and every issue they have a page of the most inventive things people have thought up to use on the farm, and some of them are amazing, they've been doing this for years and years (there's nothing more inventive than a farmer) and some of the stuff is incredible. That's the first thing my husband looks at when it comes, necessity IS the mother of invention. hahahaah I remember my own grandmother when television came to be, she remained amazed about it all her life. I don't know when she was born but my mother was born in 1908, so it must have been in the 1800's, those people who lived through the turn of the century saw a great many changes, have we seen as many as our own century changed?

I wish I could invent SOMETHING! My husband is ALWAYS inventing stuff. hahaahaha

And I love the heading about the cartoonists and how they saw the future. Do you remember some of the cartoonists who used to do their conceptions of the cars of the future? Some of those cars would not look so strange now!

I'd like to see some of those drawings again to compare!

ginny

DorisA, that IS a record for a toaster, I can't keep one more than a year, how did you do that? But on appliances, I have to say, let's throw down our cards and see what we have, in this corner, behind me here in the pantry in the kitchen is a 1967 avocado green GE refrigerator/ freezer that will NOT die and if it runs, it stays, that's our rule here. Hahaahah

In the kitchen we have a lovely 1980 GE harvest gold side by side fridge/ freezer, also running also staying and in the barn I have my mothers treadle Singer sewing machine, still runs and about the only sewing machine I have ever been able to sew on, ( you can adjust the speed of the needle!) Love it.

Who can beat me for old appliances??

ginny

Well, Ginny, I don't know if this qualifies as an old "appliance" but I have an old carrot scraper that I remember as a child from my Mom's kitchen - this would place it back in the 40's. I have no idea how I specifically wound up with it but I'm glad I did. The handle is one that you put your hand through (not around, as in the long stick-like current versions I have seen) and the thing is so comfortable and strong. We had a new one once and it was so uncomfortable to use plus the metal was weak. I was delighted when it "accidentally" fell into the garbage disposal and became mangled in a second.

Which reminds me - garbage disposals - that's an invention I really like, except when the thing jams up but I haven't done that recently.

Here is a link to a "Rube Goldberg" type invention..

http://home.attbi.com/~bernhard36/honda-ad.html

Just for fun... I found it in General Computer... posted by tpikdave.

My Toyota Camry is 18 years old. Would that fall in the category of old appliances? 77,000 miles on it, that car has never had anything seriously wrong with it.

Mal

My car is a 1985 or 86 Olds Culass and people are alwas commenting on it as I take care of it and it takes care of me. about 66,000 miles on it. They don't make cars like that any more.

The love affair our nation has with their autos brings to mind how many innovations have been added each model year. I remember when sun visors were sold as an "extra" item to enhance car sales. My Dad's first auto was a 1926 Chevrolet whose back seat had a comely touch consisting of a tiny flower vase on either window panel. Talk about inventions, the auto industry came up with new ones incessently. Car radios, inside starter buttons, ignition starters, turn indicators ( the early ones were handled manually and the latter ones kicked themselves off, remember?), heaters, air conditioners, electric windows, etc., etc., the list is ever growing. My wife asked me one day what the "LS" on our car indicated, and my response was "lotsa stuff". Losalbern

I drive an 86 Cutlass Cierra and I agree they have not produce a better model before or since. I love that little car and I have put 58,000 miles on it and people can't believe that is all I drive. But the last years I worked were close, less than 3 miles from home. I make few trips. I still pass the smog thing with no problem so will see if it goes a year or two more with no problems. I had a Hornet(American MOtors) from 77 to 86 and thought that was a long time. Faith

Oh yes cars, did you see the latest models and prototypes on television yesterday? Wow, at the innovations, wow. Losalbern, you are so right! The Mercedes convertible has sensors that throw up roll bar things behind each head (because of course most of the new convertibles don't have them). The Cadillac can fold down a hardtop and make a convertible with you sitting in the seat in 29 seconds! The newest thing is the look of the Mustang of the 60's with a 2003 set up under the hood.

AH the Cutlass, Ginger, Malryn and Faith, my husband's first car he ever owned, and he loved it, it was white, I can see it to this day! But unless any of you are antique car buffs, I have a feeling the Andersons have you beat, we not only have a 1980 Chevy truck (no air, 4 wheel drive, you have to get OUT of the truck and manually turn the wheels to switch it into 4 wheel drive), hahaahaha but once my neighbor and I were riding in it in January and she said, ginny why is it so cold in here and we looked down and we could see the pavement under her feet ahhaahah It HAD rust, no more. My husband keeps his old 1962 Ford truck (with the manual shift on the wheel, remember those?) at his mother's farm, and it runs just fine. Not even up on blocks.

I'll tell you tho, I saw an exhibit of really old cars in the Munich museum once, and those early cars were some kind of gorgeous, glamorous and very fine. They had style, I don't know what year they were from, running boards, rumble seats, think how far the automotive industry has come!

Now we have navigation in cars which call an alarm number when the car is in trouble, (they actualy tracked one when it was stolen that way) and we have airbags in the sides of cars and sensors that sense your weight and adjust automaticallyl and other sensors that gauge the distance bewteen you and the car in front and automatically slow you down! hahaahahah

I had an aunt once who bought a brand new car when they first came out with those delayed lights? And she took it back the next day. And said she did not want any car which was smarter than she was. hahahaahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Diane, I know the very kind you're talking about, some of those old tools for the kitchen were fabulous, I have an old spoon that I bought at the K Mart years ago they don't make like it any more, it's a shallow bowl skimmer for jelly, and it's about like the truck, worn thru but there's nothing else like it out there.

Pat, forgot about Rube Goldberg, what a hoot!

ginny

I had to leave a Servel (sp?) gas fridge when I sold my house in Sheridan, Wyoming back in the early 70s and I have always wished I had it back. If the people that bought my house ever took that fridge to the dump they were nuts! Absolutely quiet. Never a worry if the electricity went out. It had a freezer on top and the fridge below.

Howzat

I wonder why they stopped making gas refridgerators?

Actually, gas refrigerators are still available, even Servel is still being manufactured. Mostly they are special order, and rigged for propane (which can be changed over to natural gas) and used widely in RVs and vacation cabins.

However, the model of Servel that I had, and all Servels made between 1933 and 1957, have been recalled, with a $100 bounty paid for each one turned in, some 22,000 so far. Seems, if not kept serviced correctly, these models can put off deadly carbon monoxide in large enough quantities to kill in closed areas.

I always kept my burners and pilot light clean simply because that's the kind of person I was. Hmmm, a life saving habit, I see. Well, live and learn. I found all this out on Google.

Speaking of Google, those two fellers that started Google, and still own it, should have a pat on the back for their invention. What a marvelous research tool!

Howzat

Ginny,

The way to preserve your toaster is not to put it in the dishwasher or dishwater, whichever? Hahaha! Just kidding! My husband, like yours, has many patents but he's the genius in the family.

One of things that I appreciate most is having a bank card so I can go to the "well" anytime that I need to do so. When they first came out with them, I swore that I didn't need or want one. When I saw how easy they were to use, I was at the bank machine frequently!

This is the car I have but mine is in better shape still the original paint job. 1985 Olds Cutass

My family had a Servel purchased sometime before 1949 and it was great, so quiet you never knew it was in the house. I love gas appliances. But where I live the only ones I see are water heaters and furnaces. I do see newer homes with gas stoves which I would love to have but it was so costly to run a line now I just replaced my old electric with a new electric.

How I would LOVE to have my mother's treadle machine. I learned to sew on it and now with the fancy computer model I cant sew when it storms etc..have to be careful about putting magnetic objects near it ...Mother's machine had a shuttle bobbin and when we were little sometimes we would just sit there and treadle like mad to see that shuttle go back and forth.

I am sitting here trying to think of the oldest appliance I have...I think the toaster wins..of course the oldest thing in the house is ME!!! and like the toaster I still work....

Medical inventions are mind boggling. Two years ago a member of my church needed by pass surgery . Except for my grandchildrens births it has been a long time since anyone I was close to was in the hospital. Since this person was from out of state and had no relatives here I volunteered to be his advocate. Now I have to tell you I was absolutely stunned by the improvement in medical inventions. He was in a pod with 5 individual rooms...all of them hooked up to heart monitors they carried in their pajama pockets. They could walk up and down the halls and there were antennas in the hall ceilings so they could be monitored. The machine that monitored them was at the nurses station and the patients information was being constantly fed to the machine with an alarm if something was wrong.

When he finally had the surgery I was allowed to visit with him for a few minutes after he was placed in an ICU unit. I could see he was okay although sedated for 24 hrs until the breathing tube would be removed. The nurse on duty was kind enough to explain all the lights etc flashing and how the monitors worked. It was a good thing he was doing well as I was fascinated by what I was seeing.

The next morning after his tube was removed I again went to see him and HE WAS SITTING up...the bed made into a chair and he was drinking grapefruit juice. He progessed so rapidly he went from surgery on Mon am to coming home on Friday afternoon. His daughter and son in law arrived on Sat and Sunday they all went to church.I STAYED HOME AND RESTED.

I do have my husbands ice skates,,they are just the blades and clamped onto regular shoes. I wish I had kept some of the old things my family had but like most young people I wanted NEW THINGS...and my children are the same. I wonder when they are seniors if they will wish they had some of the things I am trying to get rid of!!!!

Long before you could code a phone number in push a button to call whomever you wished I was very ill and my husband was in PAnama ...My phone needed to be repaired and I asked the phone man why they couldnt make a phone so you could just push one button and get the doctor etc..he explained the complications with doing that ventured to say it was impossible. I HOPE HE IS STILL ALIVE SOMEWHERE and as he pushes his buttons remembers what he said!!!

I have reached a point in my life if some one says this or that can be done I BELIEVE THEM...

RUBE GOLDBERG ...what wonderful contraptions he came up with...and I think inventors must have a similiar mind ...which leaves me out ...you are a great,great group...thanks..anna

I was wondering why Bach Inventions had that name and found out that originally they were called "Praeambulae" and were written as teaching pieces and not written for performance. Isn't that an interesting bit of trivia?

Mal

Mal, you know (or find out) more neat stuff. It's always a pleasure to read your posts.

Why, thanks, Mary. You made me feel good!

Mal

ANNAFAIR - The interlocking stitch sewing machine was a great time saving invention. I still have my mother's old Singer treadle - 18 years old when they were married and bought it used, so that would make it from about 1912. It is a heavy duty made for a tailor. It still works. The only repairs it has had have been new belts. The tailor had already taken the finish off and then decided to sell it as was instead of revarnishing it. I slapped on some verithane in the '70s to protect it from wet jugs my milk customers tended to set on it. We have two much newer machines between us which can do all kinds of great tricks, but the old Singer is still the best for leather, patching tents or upolstery, or sewing up the legs of heavy jeans. That hand wheel (used to get the treadle started) is like a low worm gear on a big truck. I can go very slow and get all the power I need.

I too learned to sew on a treadle machine when I was about 10 years old. I made many hems on stuff for my mother and nana then finally they let me make a skirt and then a sunsuit which was hard. It was one piece with a drop down panel for the seat like granddads underwear, and the panel tiedup around the waist. I dont remember what next but I do remember my mom getting a White electric machine and I sewed on that till the 50's. When I didnt have a sewing machine I did lots of hand sewing and could make a whole dress by hand. For the children I made clothing by hand but found it didnt hold up as well so finally we bought an electric machine just before my last baby was born. I made shirts too and they are hard. I took a course in tailoring at city college and one in upholstery but never used either technique much.

I am glad to know the many ways the word invention can be used even as Mal points out in referring to music. Here I always thought it was only about objects or the way to make an object. I knew you could patent an new idea of how to do something but still the end result was in an object I thought. So we are never to old to learn are we.

I love the new fangled stuff like my computer but do you know I have never programmed my phone for one number punches to phone no I use a lot. I inherited a fax machine and never use it and dont want too but have no idea what to do with it. I think I sent one fax to my sis on it. Faith

Wow! I have been reading about all those great inventions you folks have been telling about and they are all so great.
But I believe improvements on these inventions are just as great For instance, the modern day clothes washer is a fine example of such an improvement over the old clothes washing methods. I didn't mention dryers because I'm not sure they had them when I was a youngster.
When I was the afore mentioned youngster, I can remember some of the women in the household taking turns cranking the old side arm wash machine to turn the agitator that beat the clothes clean. Just imagine! I don't think too many loads were put through in one day. Then after the ladies thought the clothes were clean enough or their arms grew tired (probably the later came first) they would put them through the wringer that was attached to said wash machine in order to wring the clothes of excess water. This was accomplished by turning yet another hand crank on the wringer The wringing process helped prepare the clothes for drying on a clothes line somewhere either in the back yard in nice weather or in the basement during inclement weather. Now I realize why the senior women of my boyhood days looked so much older than the senior women of today. Another smile )
Modern day automobile ignition system is still another great improvement for starting cars Speaking of hand cranks I remember one of my uncle owned a twenty-something. Chandler automobile. Well, in order to get the car started many things had to be done. There were two small levers on the steering wheel next to the horn one of them was for spark advance and darned if I can remember what the other one was far but anyway both had to be advanced. After this was done, my uncle would return to the front of the Chandler and insert the hand crank into the cranking post underneath the radiator of the auto. . This hand held crank had to be held a certain way because if it wasn't serious injury could occur by the crank lever flying back when the engine turned over and caught. Now if the car had a stubbornest about it at the time many turns of the crank were necessary to turn the engine over (just imagine if it was raining). Once the engine caught the motorist had to hurry back to the driver side and start the choking and accelerating process. If this wasn't done right or soon enough then the whole procedure had to be repeated.
Many, many decades later a friend of my uncle said, "They don't make cars they way they used to." My uncle's reply was, "Thank God." )
It seems as though there were a lot of cranks in those days. I can see why.

Bill H

Learning how to sew on a treadle machine, my mother's, when I was 8 yrs old, proved to be a slight problem when I was a H.S. freshman. The teacher asked who knew how to use a treadle and two of us raised our hands, excitedly! Oh, she says, that 's good because we don't have enough electric machines for the whole class so you two can use the treadles! Well, that was not what we intended in our showing off of our knowledge. Spent a year using those treadles and had to wait until I was married and pregnant to learn the use of an electric!

As to cranking a car, my parents story of my birth included the freezing temps, the deepest snow in centuries plus the hand cranking of the frozen '31 Model A! But, hey, it worked and I was able to arrive in a warm hospital.

Ahhhh, progress is wonderful!

I was born at home. I doubt very much that my father had a car.

Mal

I add my THANK GOD to your uncles. Thankfully I learned on a stick shift and still enjoy using one but have to say the 'tis easier to use my automatic shift.

Mal you always add interesting sites in your posts and I know I have benefited by them many times so thank you too.

My husbands parents had a refrigerator with a top monitor, the only one like that I saw and an Easy washing machine with three cups that went up and down and beat the heck out of the clothes..It also had a spin feature which was kinder to the clothes than later washing machines. When we went to Germany in '53 I was allowed to take a washing machine but they warned us about bring automatic ones so I found an easy second hand and took it with me. We were able to buy a dryer that worked on the European current and thank goodness for when we were in France it RAINED and was cloudy for three months.

Although I love fresh air and summer's in St Louis when I was growing up were awful we survived and did well. The only air conditioning we found were in movie theaters and some stores and restaurants where a banner with a polar bear on a block of ice announced 20 degrees cooler inside! Now I am so grateful for whole house airconditioning and whole house heating....I do miss the summer evenings when everyone in the neighborhood sat on the front porch and visited back and forth. We children played games and when tired sat on the front steps and told ghost stories. I have wonderful memories of those times. Air conditioning drove us indoors and in my mind destroyed a neighborhood. Sometimes new neighbors move in and out and except for welcoming them when you saw them move in you never speak again.

Your posts keep me thinking and remembering..We had a wire toaster we used on top of the stove. Although there were so many of us mother use to toast a whole loaf of bread in the oven...always cinnamon toast which I have never been able to duplicate.

One of my uncles was sort of an engineer and hooked up a water line through the cooling system in their refrigerator and added a water fountain on the outside. I remember it was the neatest thing. Like many of us even the advent of the refrigerator didnt keep us from using a wooden box in a window in winter. We always said some things tasted better chilled that way.

In summer months we often made home made ice cream in a hand cranked affair ..the smaller children were allowed to turn the crank in the beginning until Dad or an older brother was called in to finish the job. When the dasher was pulled out mother would place it in a bowl for us to enjoy until the icecream ripened. My electric ice cream maker still makes superior ice cream but only the older folks appreciate the taste.. The young ones think we are crazy when you can buy all you want at the store.

Off I go to bake gingersnaps. Home made ones are far superior to purchased and my grandchildren say NANA MAKES THE BEST COOKIES. you are such a great group and keep those memories coming. They arent many you can talk to now that remember the OLDEN DAYS and the beginning of many modern inventions...We were there for it all HOORAY.......anna

Oh, Anna - I love home-made ginger snaps. Would you share your recipe? (That could be considered an invention.)

Anna,
I remember the wire toaster. I also remember my mother making toast in the oven. How about the old clothes press irons that had to be heated on a some sort of metal plate on the stove top in order to iron shirts and other clothes. The iron had to be reheated so many times before all the ironing was finished.
I'm sure someone mentioned the wonderfull invention of TV. This miracle brought Jacky Gleason, Sid Ceasar and Arthur Godfrey into our living-rooms. These programs gave us so many laughs. Now that trio has been replaced by bringing war into our living-rooms
Last week, as I watched the war unfold before me on the wonderful TV invention, I saw an Abraham tank come roaring along with it's cannon pointing directly at me. Wow! I sure hope it dosen't leap through TV the tube because there's no time to dig a fox hole and hide. I'll stick with Gleason, Ceasar and Godfrey. Isn't change grand?
Oh by the way, Anna, please save me some Ginger snaps

Bill H

Bill H the flat irons had no handle but a removable thing that grasp the hot iron and was locked on and then used to iron till it cooled and you put it over the stove top, dropped the flat iron, reach out and grabbed a hot one , locked on it, and ironed till it cooled ..My mom always had 4 heating so that she had very hot ones ready at all times and she ironed at great speed. She always said her electric iron was what she missed most in winter when we had no electricity right up till the late 30's. She didnt have a vacumn either till after the ww2 and I remember all the spring removal of rugs to bushes and clothes lines outdoors to be beaten with sticks to get the dust out andif she planned it right she hung them out when a good strong wind would blow. Then she used the old fashion manual Bissel Sweeper. I have just recently bought an electric Bissel type Sweeper!! It is great for the outdoor carpets on porchs and for bare floors. faith

Very early in our marriage, my wife convinced me that it would be quite cost effective if we were to purchase a brand new Singer Featherweight portable sewing machine. She had been taught on the older treadle machine and loved to sew everything that required a stitch. That became one of the best purchases we ever made. She sewed clothes for herself, for the tiny kids that were always outgrowing something, curtains and drapes, and even a shirt for me now and then. Once at an Indian Guide meeting the discussion centered aound the fact that our "tribe" needed a Teepee in the worst way but funds and skills were not forthcoming. I picked up a phone and asked her, " how would you like to make a Teepee, maybe 12 to 15 feet high?" She made a beautiful Teepee that knocked everbody's eye out! The kids were enthralled! We still have that "Featherweight" sewing machine and it still gets a lot of use. Losalbern

Thats is even better than the toasters that were 1949 and 50 wedding presents still in use in so many households. A Singer Featherweight was a grand machine. I think one of my daughters has the oldest appliance from my married life, a deep fat fryer that converted to a stew cooker but it was a 1955 purchases and we used it very little after 1960. She told me she rescued it and it is used for soup and stew now. I had a Waring blender made in 1942 that just gave up the ghost a couple of years ago. It was actually a drink blender, and we made crushed ice drinks in it such as frozen daquaris back when I thought I could drink along with the normal people. faith

Irons heated on the stove, I had forgotten those. I had a friend pick up my lawn mower today although I will have to wait to use it since it has rained and the grass is WET WET..As I paid the bill for repair I recalled the wonderful push mowers of my childhood. They lasted forever and only needed the blades sharpened which my father did well.

How often I have wished for one of those old mowers. They were easy to use and could get into areas I cant with my gas mower. They took up little space, didnt need gas to run and you didnt wrench your shoulder trying to pull the start cord.

I see in ads they are showing a picture of a NEW portable record player that plays all the old records..78, 331/3 and 45...and I still have a lot of those old records..what is really funny it is exactly like one I had a long time ago. But then we had furniture made to hold a reel to reel , a record player that played all those records, an 8 track, amplifier etc the works ...and large stereo speakers which need something to make it work ...I should have kept that old record player...

This discussion makes me think we should have resisted some of the new inventions ..how about everyone else?

By the way I shall give you the gingersnap cookie recipe..it is the very best I have ever tried. Has a T of ginger and vinegar ..has a wonderful crisp texture and the taste is yummy....have a great day..anna

You can buy a reel mower at Home Depot. Costs about $80. I just have a postage stamp front lawn and got tired of my family not taking care of the gas mowers (leaving them out in the rain, not checking the oil level, leaving gas in them all winter) and having to buy a new one every other year, so I bought one. I have to chuckle (privately of course) to see grown children and grand children boo hooing about having to push it around the lawn in "front of the whole neighborhood".

I'll bet that old record player you didn't keep had the long middle spindle that held 10 records and dropped them one at a time as each one finished playing, then the record player shut off after the last record played. Neat! I still have mine.

Howzat

As asked here is my gingersnap cookie recipe.

 

 2 cups all purpose flour                  1 c granulated sugar 
 1/4 tsp salt                              1 egg  
 1 tsp baking soda                         1/4 c dark molasses  
 1 tablespoon ground ginger 
 1/2c soft butter or 1/4 c butter     1 tablespoon vinegar  



Start oven ten minutes before ready to bake 375 degrees  
Sift flour, measure and add salt, 
baking soda and ginger sift again  
Cream butter until shiny, 
gradually add sugar,cream well. 
Beat in egg until fluffy.  
Stir in molasses, then vinegar.  
Add flour in two portions mix smooth after each addition. 

Grease baking sheets lightly.Grease hands lightly  
and using a teaspoon to help shape into  
walnut sized balls Dip into 3 tablespoons of granulated sugar 
I have two large cookie sheets and can get 15 on them.  
The cookies need to be about 2 inches apart 
as they will spread when baking.  
According to the recipe you should bake them for 12 minutes 
until delicately brown.  
Last night I baked them for 7 minutes 
and they were perfect.  
Let stand on the cookie sheet a full minute 
before removing. Place on a rack or  
several paper towels to cool.  
Since ovens vary you might want to  
bake only 6 the first time and see 
how long it takes that will help to  
determine how long your oven needs.  
With a glass of cold milk these cookies  
just cant be beat....enjoy...anna

Whoa! Annafair's recipe post for ginger cookies didn't wrap around, so it goes waaay out to the right.

Howzat

I had to edit the recipe so I hope it is now fine

thanks for the info about the mower too. Will check at Home Depot here...anna

Annafair, they sound WONDERFUL! I'll try them this weekend. Thanks so much for sharing.

Mary

Love your reciepe and now I want Homemade Ginger snaps. I know your's are Good. Mouth watering, Ginger here

Let me see, there was a microwave egg poacher I still have but have only used once, an omelet fry pan that was divided in two and if I am right you divided the omelet ingrediants in two as well, folded the pan and voila an omelet but I still preferred to make a omlet the OLD way and gave the pan to a visitor who had been looking for it. A dehydrator for making dried fruits and vegetables. It was really too tedious and too too long taking up space I needed for other appliances..It is now on a shelf in the laundry room and I keep forgetting to donate it to some worthwhile cause!After buying at least three electric can openers that eventually needed replacement I just bought a wonderful hand can opener that cuts the lid off and doesnt leave sharp edges. I would never buy another electric can opener. A deep fat fryer I only used maybe 10 times before I gave it away..Again it took up room needed for appliances I used on a daily basis ...and the coating on chicken sunk to the bottom and darkened ..it was a mess trying to keep clean ..so I returned to my cast iron chicken fryer which made superior fried chicken and was easy to clean plus it was good for making chili or spaghetti sauce etc. There are other gadgets that sounded good but failed my testing.. so what invention did you buy that turned into disappointment ? anna

I have a electric can opener that is suppose cut the can from the outside that I cannot get to work so it sets there till someone can make it work.

I received a pasta maker as a gift, used it once, and then it went away with somebody else.

I gave my pasta maker away after never using it in a year I had it. I don't know why but I also can not get those can-openers that cut the top off from the sides of the can to work. Had two brands. both manual and both in thrift shops somewhere by now. I also have a Salad shooter that I used the holiday I received it and it is put away and that is that . Some day I will give it away I suppose. It is so much easier to just use a paring knife and a French knife and chop on a board especially cooking for one(if you can call it cooking:>) faith

My mother used to call that her third kitchen. There was the first one which was items used daily and then there was the second for occasional tasks. Then there was the third for items such as salad shooters and pasta makers.

My places are full so have no place to put any th ing and so the story goes.

I never have any problem with it and it does a good job. I forgot about the pasta maker, I used to make home made egg noodles ( still do once in awhile) and my husbands aunt bought me the pasta maker thinking it would be easier...It is still in the original box ..I tried it may be three times and it was messy and took me twice as long to make the noodles than by hand. Who cares if the noodles are exactly the same size...? We are going to eat them and I can tell you my stomach will digest any size gladly! I still have a handy dandy nut chopper ..hand held that does the job but I just place the shelled nuts into a plastic freezer bag and use my rolling pin to crush them just right for baking or anything that calls for chopped nuts. AND it is twice as fast. I also have a salad spinner which I never use either..of yes I did for a brief while but I just place paper towels in the bottom of a colandar and they drain well and have a muslin bag to place the drained salad greens ..chilled in the fridge they are great. I think I need to go to a counselor who deprograms you so you are not tempted by gadgets! Glad to know I am not alone in this area...

anna

While I was on the farm and doing a lot of cooking from scratch for my four kids, I might have been able to make use of some kitchen gadgets, but my budget and the limited counter space kept me out of trouble. I just did things the old fashioned way, except for buying an electric butter churn. (I sold some butter, so that paid for itself.) I still beat eggs with an egg beater - never owned a mixer.

Now I am married to a gadget lover. She brought with her or has bought everything from the microwave to a blender along with a hoard of mismatched, odd-shaped containers to cook and eat with, plastic and traditional. To her, all her things are necessities, but to me they are clutter. I cook on the stove in pans. Is that getting completely out of date?

As to newer inventions I make use of, I do appreciate a good washer, a power drill which drives screws I can no longer handle with my arthrtic joints, a good monitor kerocene heater so I don't need to chop wood, my CD player with good speakers for my loved classical and band music, and I would have to include this computer and the capacity to trade stocks online with instant feedback. I can't imagine ever trying to trade with the old ticker tape info. It is possible our whole, evolving market system should rank with great inventions. It is the backbone of a free market economy, which is still an ideal of our country, if not totally the fact.

Yesterday I was sitting in my living room waiting to go to a family cookout. There is a lovely battery powered, crystal clock on the table near my chair.. When I checked the time I found it had stopped and remembered it was time to replace the battery. This is not the usual battery but a small chunky one which required visits to several different stores the last time the clock needed a new one.

Sometimes I think the inventor also thought of inventions requiring batteries. Not just one size but different sizes, and some requiring more than one. Do you have leftover batteries from a package because the object needing batteries didn't need ALL in the package? I do! My electric clocks require battery back-up and sometimes they don't work.. Wrist watches require batteries and need replacement when you need them the most. I wore a watch for years that kept perfect time, requiring I wind it every day ...Why did I think a battery operated watch would be better.?

Have you noticed so many things now require batteries? Especially children's toys. The last time I baby sat my three youngest grandchildren (4,3,2) they were so upset because Nana didn't know how to work the toys. These toys require batteries which were lost or needed new ones. Some I couldn't figure out where the battery would go. Finally I sat them at the dining table, gave them a handful of crayons, plain paper and asked them to draw pictures. Using paste made from flour and water I cut strips of the paper and made paper chain necklaces for their mommies.

I know we need batteries but what ever happened to plain toys that required a little imagination and dexterity ? Do you have a dubious invention? anna

Ben I have found cooking the old way is still the best way. I use the microwave to reheat mostly and to pop corn.

My cheese omelets are quickly made in a small skillet on top the stove, and pot roast and swiss steak simmer very slowly on top the stove and melts in your mouth. I know how long it takes and somehow I underestimate the slow cooker.

My children grew up with real home made bread. I would make six loaves at a time and they would be baking just as the school bus arrived home...Their friends would say what is that wonderful smell and they would smile and say MOM IS BAKING BREAD! I would be taking the bread out of the pans and they would cut two inch slices and eat without butter or jelly.

When my husband died I quit baking bread but missed it so much I finally bought a bread maker. Now it does a good job but still it is not the same. Even my children would say that. So this year I went back to making it the old way. I have them over a lot for dinners and the bread as usual doesnt last long ,...not only that there is a certain kind of satisfaction in making bread from scratch...especially the kneading! Gets rid of a lot of frustration!

Two other gadgets I gave away, an electric frypan and electric wok. My stove top pans fit in the cupboards beneath the stove and I dont have to worry about finding a safe electric socket etc. Life became easier and my space more generous when I eliminated the above objects!!!!!!!!! anna

Some of my things that are supposed to be modern time savers are those teflon coated pans. I have either discarded them or given them away and gone back to the old fashioned iron ones. I even found a sauce pan complete with an iron lid in one of the discount stores. It only cost $5.00. My favorite pan is an oval one that came from K-Mart. It is just right for 2 patties. The round one still is the best for omelettes and things like that. I would love to find an iron wok if there is such a thing.

I have a set of sauce pans made of cranberry colored glass. These I really do like.

Another thing I like to bring home with me, which I guess really isn't an invention is the spit roasted chicken that one of the grocery stores prepares. My favorite flavor is mojo (Pronounced moho). It feeds me for about 4 days.

I like the garlic lemon spit roasted chicken at my supermarket and buy one about once month. It feeds me also about 4 days good hearty meals. Sometimes I use the carcass to make chicken broth and then strain it and put the last of the chicken cut up in with rice and carrots and whatever I have and make soup. That is good. When I eat it I think of the chicken rice soup that costs 2.39 in ready to serve style. For awhile our grocery had deli soup but no one seemed to go for that so its gone. I cook for myself maybe four days a week and eat micro wave food the rest of the time but in summer I am more apt to just eat salads and fish and fruit and cheese so that is mostly "home cooking'.

The older I get the more stuff I don't need. And like you Anna I find all the batteries a confusing thing. I have a bunch of them stored in my ref. in plastic bags for the clocks, the remotes, the smoke alarms,a standby radio and the flashlights. Also a tape recorder and a Waksman. Oh, and my wrist blood pressure measurement kit. But at least these things work even when we are without electricity for a day or two. That is when I am sorry for keeping lots of things in the freezer where they will perish after about 24 hours. Canning and Drying are the real ways to preserve food. And that is ancient though I bet it was a wonderful new invention at one time. I know my dad used some old old methods like salting and pickling to preserve some of his fish and game. His salted venison was just like fresh after he cut off the packed with salt outer layer of the meat.

I wonder just how this country would do without electricity. We cant even milk cows by hand anymore or make our own butter or pasteurize and separate milk. I learned to do this things on our ranch with just one Jersey cow and a big old thermometer in a big pot on the stove. My husband liked raw milk but I wanted it pasteurized. He finally bought me a 5 gal pasteurizer from Sears. I also made cheese, some cottage cheese but I used a purchased package of bacteria of some sort that you put in the warm milk, continue heating and hold at 175 degrees until it curds completely, then after straining off the whey for my sons pigs I had to drain the cheese in cheesecloth overnight. Then I had the nicest cream cheese you ever ate. I always used up all my extra milk like that. If I didn't have the pack of cheese-maker stuff I bought buttermilk at the grocery store and 2 qt buttermilk to 6 qts fresh whole milk makes a batch of cream cheese too. Yield is about a pound and a half as I remember.The dairy that makes the buttermilk puts the bacteria in it so it acts like a starter for the batch of fresh milk. It doesn't pay to do it unless it is milk you wont use any other way in this day and age.

I must say I remember all this stuff with nostalgia but the truth is I would not want to live as my great grandmother did though I am sure I could. But I want my bathroom nice and warm with its hot shower and all the conveniences for my shampoo and drying my hair etc. And I don't have to chop wood or order coal and carry it to build fires while my house is freezing. No I will take my nice little mobile home and thank the good lord for it and all the conveniences I have. Faith

Anna, but what a wonderful invention the battery was. With batteries I can use a remote to open my garage door, operate my TV and power up my flash light when there is a power failure and the lights go off and so many other things.
I also appreciate the invention of the electric motor, it does so much for us. The electric motor operates so many of our household appliances. I don't even want to imagine what we would do with out this wonderful motor. Who wants to go back to the hand crank wash machines and wringers? Not I.How about the crock pot cooker. I have one but I haven't used it in years. I think I'll dig it out and conjure something up with it.Do any of you use one?
However, I think the invention of the automobile and the computer have had the greatest influence in my life. The auto especially.

Bill H

Faith and Louise, my super market also sells these spit roasted chickens but I have been hesitant to buy one.Are they good.? I'll have to give them a try.

Bill H

I do agree they are handy and wouldnt want to be without them..I just think too many things use batteries. Because I have so many things ( collectibles etc ) I am often gifted with a new gadget family and friend think I would like. I just threw away a battery powered flour sifter. It worked but it was smaller than the hand sifter I have used for 0ver 50 years. When I found the gift sifter the battery had leaked and the box it was in was a mess!

Christmas my 3 year old grandson was gifted with a battery operated cash register for checking out groceries and it even had a credit card to use. I am amazed at the items that require batteries. My grandchildren get books, home made cookies, a home made garment, even doll clothes, something I know they need and will use but no toys!

I dont want to return to the OLDEN DAYS but one thing my mother used to say when she visited....with an electric washing machine and dryer I did more laundry in a week than she did with her washtubs, hand wringer etc...and since I had all these wonderful appliances I felt obligated to use them...We were more or less issued a set of towels after each washday and clean sheets ...and they lasted a week. We hung up our good clothes and wore them a number of times before they were dry cleaned or laundered. We had play clothes and good clothes everyone we knew dressed the same way .

Now I am laughing at my self..how did I go from batteries to clothes? We Irish just dont know when to shut up!

By the way I use a LARGE fry pan as a wok...I place it on the smaller burner so the middle is hot but the sides are cooler..add my olive oil to the center , stir fry the meat,,,push it to the cooler sides, add vegetables and finally stir it all together, works great!

anna who really likes computers and washing machines , clothes dryers, automobiles, air conditioning , whole house heating, hot showers, hair dryers , sewing machines, I gave up electic scissors when I messed up some beautiful fabric.. I am trying to think what else I can give up! anna

annafair, I love your large frying pan/wok idea. May common sense always prevail!

BILL, are you counting the automobile as an invention of this century? I think it goes back farther than that. There were steam-powered vehicles (not very useful ones) back in the 18th century. Electric powered vehicles were invented in the 19th century. There was even an internal combustion engine powered by gas and attached to a vehicle of sort prior to the beginning of the 20th century.

(I'm not an auto history buff. Your post got me to wondering and I looked it up.) ...Babi

BillH at my supermarket the chickens are really good. They marinate a bunch with babicue sauce and a different bunch with garlic lemon sauce and they are done to perfection then kept hot in a self serve oven along with a wonderfull looking steak, grilled over open fire tri tip steaks too big and are too expensive for me, also a whole roasted turkey breast that I did buy once and had to freeze most of it and then it was not very good when thawed. I stick to the whole chickens.Our KFC also sells whole bbq chicken but it is more expensive and not as good as Raleys.

My crock pot is also stored. I had two. One I gave away. I kept the big one. Mostly I made stew or pot a feu' which is 1 each of hot sausage, pork chop, chicken breast,1 piece of left over ham , 4 oz of chicken broth 1 bay leaf- 1 small onion quartered -start on high till it comes to a boil, turn to low cook eight hours or so .When getting ready to serve- Pull meats to small pieces, take out bones if any, add more broth if needed and 1 large can of white beans-season to taste- turn to high cook till hot all through. This used up left overs and/or small portions in the freezer I wanted to get cooked.My partner at the time loved this. He was a bean eater anyway hahahah and we did laugh about that. Faith

Ahhh, my crockpot! I have used it many times and love the different recipies in the cookbook that came with it. Another nice cooker, especially for a biiiiiiggg turkey, is the Westinghouse Oven/Cooker which I have given away to my son and his family since I have not intention of cooking a 25 pound bird in the near future. My MIL gave me hers and that's the same one that I gave away. Its like the family silver! We keep passing it on. She bought it in 1945 or 47. Sometime right after WWII. Anyway, the best thing about it? You can place it outside on a porch, in the open garage on the deck etc. Keeps the strong odor from getting into your furniture and drapes and clothes for the following two weeks. An, they still make this wonderful oven.

BaBi, whatever century. I'm just glad they were invented.

Faith and Ann, I'm going to have to get out my crockpot again and see what I can cook up.

Bill H

Still have my Westinghouse roaster...it also has a grill but I seldom use it..we bought it in 1955 while we were stationed in Germany...the stove in our apartment had a useless oven..cooked the top and left the bottom raw...Since we are a large family and always have guests as well it is a grand container for large amounts of whatever.

Babi I didnt know about the automobile.

I am sitting here looking around my room to see what inventions I am using..the computer, printer,scanner, fax machine ,,a wonderful swivel chair, a recliner with heat and massage, television, VCR,a couple of lamps, a telephone, battery powered wall clock, a fire extinguisher, hair spray ( which should be someplace else ps I am not organized )an electric adding machine, and electric pencil sharpener,spray starch which is a great improvement over my mother's cooked starch , a magnifying glass for "small" print,ball point pens,a ceiling fan with lights, a paper cutter,paper clips,speakers,hand lotion, Vicks (when was that put on the market?)books and more books, a calendar, wastebasket, Kleenex,batteries for assorted items,mirror,cassette tapes and CD's...head phones, a canned soft drink and a bottle of water...WOW WOW I never dreamed how many THINGS I had in this room ( my computer office room etc. ) all of which someone thought of, patented and marketed...

and none of it seemsI can do without...oh I also have a glass fishing marker from Okinawa! I see a stapler tooooo!!!!!!! That will be enough but it does show us how many things we use someone saw a need and filled it...so how about the rest of you ? smiling at you all...anna

Smiling back at you Anna and lol too as I look around and cound the same stuff galore including a digital camera too and lamps and a florescent light on the ceiling of course my telephone hooked into the computer works and the quickcam on the computer also works. I am not going to go count inventions in anyother room. This one bogged me down after I read post # 757.

My meighbor and I were visiting and I told him what fun this site is and he said it might be worth getting back on the internet!!! We did see on his patio a lawn mower, a weed wacker, lights on the shed that come on at night if someone passes in front of them, his electric powered blower, the battery charger, the tire inflater. And he said Stop! I am going to put all this stuff in the shed right now and we broke up laughing about that too. faith

Just on the wild chance that it's been overlooked I must mention here the dishwasher. I'm sure it has been mentioned but just in case.... I mention it now because ours is humming away so nicely at the moment and, as I loaded it, I stopped to remember how it was before we had one. Although, to be honest, every once in a while - not often, mind you - I do enjoy filling up the sink with hot, soapy water and bringing out clean, shiny plates and things. A nice feeling of accomplishment. But, I LOVE dishwashers.

Diane I am rather fond of them too...I wait until I have a full load and use hot water wash to make sure they are as germ free as possible. Like you though I must confess if I have only a few I fill up the sink and wash them by hand...There is a sense of accomplishment but mostly it is tied to my memories when I was young and living at home..doing dishes was a family affair and always involved lots of conversation.

I did forget to mention the TV remote and the cell phone which is in this room.AND Photographs of family ...HAS anyone viewed photographs on line???My niece has hers developed and sends me a link and I can view all of her pictures and order any I would like.

When I think of it I realize how mind boggling it is..but I almost take a HO HUM attitude...I think that is why the subject of inventions caught my mind ....I am having such fun thinking about inventions....and Faith I have a small riding mower, a weedwacker, a pressure water washer, a whole set of Dremel tools I use for lots of little things, the usual hand tools ....an auger for making holes for my bulbs...I am beginning to see I am using a lot of those 6,000,000 patents! AND PLASTIC items ...what would we do without plastic ? I am going to stop before my mind goes berserk thinking of inventions....anna

PLASTIC! There's a major-change invention. Hadn't even thought of that one. But, ANNAFAIR, what are Dremel tools, please? ...Babi

Oh Anna I want those Dremel tools. I have watched advertisements and also some of the hobby shows on House and Garden like Carol Duvall show people making stuff. I use to do ceramics..not molded but flat work as its known where I hand molded the clay from flat pieces like using pastry to make forms and shapes. or Spiral work sometimes. And when the clay was half dry it is time to sand and smooth and put carvings in and holes etc. Those tools would really be great for the stuff I did. I sold a lot of stuff at art fairs in the 60's and 70's.

Well regarding all the yuard inventions I didnt buy any at the mobil home as my neighbor had all that stuff and I let him plant some stuff in my back yard and he takes care of lots of the yard work. Isnt that a nice use of products. My daughters and I were talking about how much stuff we would have ..it is terrible really. Think of the money I saved because Bill and Evylyn had all that stuff to share.

Maybe retired people should really think of communal living to cut down on the stuff. They could give away all their stuff and move in together.Perhaps like a commune with individual bed sitters and communal kitchens and recreation and gardens etc. Even a communal big car. I think it could work for some people. Faith

Babi Dremel tools are minatures of large tools...and they run on electricity or battery...You have a hand held holder and you add the tools needed...ie like a sander, drill, polisher ...I would have to check my kit out ..for there are a lot more. It enables you to work on small objects easily.

The next item is a food product. I visited my youngest daughter today and her two children.They were selling lemonade down the street and made 6 dollars...The lemonade was in pale green plastic glasses and I though maybe it was line Kool aid and asked Is this lime? My granddaughter looked at me and said NO IT IS HOMEMADE!

When we were back at the house she wanted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. My daughter told her to get it out of the freezer. It seems Smuckers is marketing crustless sandwiches...It looked like two slices of bread cut into a circle. Peanut butter on each side with grape jelly in the middle and the edges crimped. My daughter puts them in their lunches in the am and they are thawed by lunchtime..or you can heat for a few seconds in the microwave..I had a bite and it wasnt bad at all. I know it is cheaper to make them yourself but I remember the times when my children made their own...bread wasnt covered , lids on the peanut butter and jelly left off and gummy stickly utensils were left on the counter..Perhaps convenience isnt too bad....

anna

OH, yuck! Frozen peanut butter and jelly! That's just too much! Besides, when I made them for lunches, I always did the peanut butter on both pieces of bread the jelly inside. Kept the sandwiches from getting too messy before lunch.

Here I sit with a ZIP drive, a hard drive, a scanner, a printer, stereo speakers, digital camera, the whole kit and caboodle which allows me to talk with you all and show you my grans pictures. Its just too neat.

Yesterday, I linked to a site for another DL, a live interview plus reading with a new author. And, there he was, reading from his book on my Real Player! Right on the my screen. Ain't life grand?????:<)

Air conditioning? What would I do without it? I am not a hot weather person. Hate to be hot. My dad was the same way and if he had lived to have air conditioning, he would have been the first to order it.

The airplane? Where would be without that? And, trains, cars, buses? Life would just be dull if we couldn't go somewhere once in awhile.

OH, and the remote!! Yes, yes, yes. I have three or four in the living room and actually know how to use them which is a wonder in itself. Who says that they can't teach an old dog tricks!

Since I seem to be obsessed by yarn and making things with it, I will suggest that artificial silk and wool have become life changing inventions. First rayon, then nylon, orlon, dacron, have pretty well replaced most natural fibers. Sure, the natural fibers are more absorbent, but most of us are quite willing to give this up to have clothes which take much less ironing and don't need professional cleaning, plus wear longer.

Like many folks who knit or crochet, I really like to work with good wool over the synthetics, but I like to be able to wash my socks in the washer (gentle setting) and I am afraid to give anything wool to anyone young because it will probably be washed once, completely ruined, and tossed out. Our senior center, where I contribute a lot of stuff for their annual sale, will not accept any donation of wool items because their customers have complained too much in the past. Besides, wool and cotton yarn just cost more than the synthetics. Current prices for good wool yarn (75% wool and 25% nylon) for socks would cost about $12 a pair to make socks my size.

Ben, I've been knitting socks out of wool and/or wool blends that are completely safe for machine washing and drying. They come out looking really good and soft...and we love wearing them. You're right, of course, about the price. Actually, the wool usually costs more than the synthetics, and you can buy it only at yarn shops. The synthetics can be bought at Wal-Mart, etc.

I have told this story before...during WWII school children were asked to knit 6" squares which would be put together by ladies and made into blankets for the military. The story was there was a shortage of blankets and the mills could not turn them out fast enough etc so our young men were shivering ...I attended the class thinking I could do my part. The necessary equipment were purchased, wool yarn and needles of the proper size. Then the class learne how to cast on and how to knit. The numbers of stitches needed etc. We all cast on in the class and learned how to knit..was it knit one purl one ? I dont know. we took our attempts home to finish before the next class. I returned with my square which was four inches instead of the six. My instructor said I was knitting too tight and helped me again. My next square was still too small and too tight. After helping me several more times she said "Perhaps you can find something else to do for the war effort." I think that distinguished me as the only school child in America whose efforts to knit were denied. Rightfully so...I have often wondered if all those squares ended up in a warehouse somewhere and later people wondered WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE ALL THESE POTHOLDERS DOING HERE!

I am wondering since I love to bake who first realized yeast would help make bread, or baking soda would help to make cakes made with buttermilk. Who first made bread, or pancakes, or cookies, how about waffle irons, those wonderful cast iron grills and pans. How about pastuerized fresh orange juice? Dry cereal? Convenience foods to be sure but who first thought of the need for it and why?

You mentioned wool yarn and yet I have a number of items I made from pure wool machine washable yard goods. They are not itchy and I love their comfortableness , they hold up and last forever ...never fade ...who makes it?

Well Off to use the great car invention, which has a lot of plastic.

anna

Gotcha, Annafair. (I have heard of miniature tools; I just never heard the name Dremel before.)

It doesn't matter how you make a peanut butter/jelly sandwich; with the first bite the jelly comes squishing out. Messy, messy, messy! (But good.)

I think one has to live in the torrid zone to really appreciate air conditioning. I know I lived without it as a kid, but I'd never be able to do it now. Spoiled rotten, that's us. ...Babi

I'm with you, Babi. Between heat, humidity, and year-round allergies, our house stays pretty much closed up all year long. That's just the way it is - and I'm grateful every day for my central heat and a/c.

I just had the last of my Mojo Chicken today. I put it (Mostly bones) into my cock pot and made it into soup. I have found I like the Mojo the best. Mojo is some kind of marinade which I suspect is probably not found too many places outside of south Florida. The crock post I used is new and is oval shaped. It seems to fit things better than the round one.

Well I had some and it was good, juicy and tasty ...I wondered about the oval crockpots ..and my round one I havent used in a long time....when you are cooking for one or two I do it quickly on top the stove...and it isnt big enough when the whole family is over.

I know a lot of ladies no longer use hosiery but I do when I dress up and I remembered when my first pair of hosiery was pure silk. I cant remember when but I know it didnt last long because WWII came along and I wore leg makeup and for winter some rayon hose which were just awful..but my mother wouldnt allow me to go out in the winter time with bare legs...slacks were not really in ...so when I bought my first pair of nylons I thought they were great...

Today I was thinking of the parts that make up my house. My parents home had wooden lathes ( I think) and were covered with plaster and now we have wallboard so it goes up easier and I hope cheaper..My parents home was all wood and I have over the years lived in all brick and mixed brick and wooden or aluminum siding. I have replaced all my wood windows with vinyl frame windows and tilt in windows which makes washing windows on the second floor a breeze.

Glass milk bottles have been replaced with cardboard or plastic, and all sorts of things come in plastic containers that are also microwaveable..even 100% cotton fabric and linen are now machine washable...they are often called perma prest which means if you take them out of the dryer and hang them on a hanger they will need minimum pressing or none at all.

lead based paints have been replaced by safe water based paints that are easy to care for.Two of my granddaughters had fake suede coats last year trimmed in fake fur...all washable but looked real...the home we bought in Florida looked like clapboard but was all cement to fool the termites...

Contact lenses you can wear for 30 days without removing.

A few years ago I spent some time researching archives of the early settlers in Virginia. In looking for some names I read the handwritten copies of wills. A wife might inherit a house, a horse, a cow and 3 spoons, two knives, a few forks, because they were still uncommon. Because my family has grown this year I purchased two sets of stainless steel cutlery for 8 so now I have a service for 16 = the service for 12 I had before. I love real silver but gave what I had to my youngest daughter when she married..Stainless can be really attractive and so easy to care for. When all my children married none asked for silver they asked for stainless. My purchase was really reasonable and I love my stainless pots and pans. They have a heavy aluminum base since it heats better but that stainless is truly easy to clean.

Remembering my parents home I think of the wooden ice box, the combination range with a wood box on one side and a gas range on the other...the electric meter box was in the kitchen ..I am not sure when the company rewired and put it outdoors.

The fact that people are living longer and living to be 100 has to be due to something special.. In my mind it is due to the many inventions that gave us more time to enjoy life. What do you think? anna

I heard somewhere that Kellog made the first dry cereal - his corn flakes. He ran a famous health spa and planned the cereal as a health food (his spa may have been all vegetarian, but I can't remember.) I'm sure he would roll over a couple of times if he knew about the high sugar dry cereals on the market today. Of course, before the sweet dry cereals, most of us put sugar on cereal, along with good whole milk or cream, before we ate it anyway.

My candidate for the least improved invention of the last century or so, is the flush toilet. I would like to string up the guy who decided we should all be forced to save water by having only half as much water in toilet tanks. Yes, it saves water, but I get tired of having to fill a bucket under the bathtub faucet, then (for the more serious flushes only, of course) flushing, then lifting an extra gallon and a half of water to dump into the toilet, then wiping off where I splash on the toilet seat. It is either that, or stand and wait until for the tank to refill so I can flush it again or sometimes even a third time.

Now why didn't that misguided, planet-saving soul realize the old tanks were made that size in order to do the job on the first flush most every time? Of course, the obvious solution would have been to invent a two-tier flush system of some sort. Maybe this could have been made with one tank and two different handles for different needs - one which would release the one and three quarter gallons for light jobs and one which would still give us the old standard three and a half gallons for the real thing? Why hasn't some inventive plumber out there developed a real working system?

I'll bet the guy that made congress or somebody believe one and three quarters gallons would do the trick is the same guy who convinced them to make it illegal to sell washing machines where you could choose to rinse in warm water. I really missed that option in Colorado where I hung clothes out on below freezing mornings with my arthritic hands. Warm freshly washed clothes had been the difference between having to stop mid-load to come back in and warm my hands before I could stand to hang up the rest, like I did with the cold rinse only new machine I bought.

Ben, I think they do make a dual-flus toilet. I know I've used them in Europe - and not in fancy places (we don't stay in those). I'm sure they're readily available here, too - but I'm also sure they'll be pretty pricey. If we ever have to replace a toilet, that's where I'll start looking first.

Ben, I think you need the toilets we have down here. When they flush, they really flush!! I have a dual flush toilet, which is now required by law, but even the light flush really flushes....like the toilet Mary Z was talking about. I remember getting very frustrated by your toilets.....they are ever so gentle, so gentle that, like you said, you wonder if everything's going to finally go down the drain, and often it didn't. Our toilets aren't as pretty as yours, but they flush well. They're also quite a bit higher, which is certainly easier to get up from....especially for our age.<G> My friend in Santa Clarita is always complaining about her toilet as well, the same complaint you have. I tell her that with our toilets, you'd want to be standing up when you flush or you might get flushed down along with everything else.<G>

Bobbie

Oh my you all keep coming up with new inventions ...and I have to laugh at some ...when we lived in Europe I guess the toilets Mary and Bobbie mentioned are the kind of remember..there were two stages and did a great job. I would think they would also save water although I have no idea if that is true.

My children have newer homes with the low flush toilets and I HATE them...I am glad I still have my 30 year old commodes..one flush and you can safely walk away without checking to see if all has started its journey through the sewer. Saves a lot of time!!!!!

I have a vague recollection of toilets with tanks over head and they seemed to be very effecient although I must have been very young when I saw them.

The new photo electric toilets are funny to me and I think they flush more than needed sometimes. Anything is an improvement over the outdoor privy or the indoor "sugar bowl" as some of my relatives called it. The more we speak about the inventions in our lives the more I realize how great they are. YES I could if I had to live without them but gratefully I hope I never have to!

Yesterday I cooked some meat I had frozen and over wrapped in aluminum foil...IT does a great job keeping the meat safe and holding the foil packet under warm water it removes easily. If I make a pie or brownies for a bake sale I use the disposable aluminum pans etc ...they are great and I dont have to worry about finding my containers at the end of the event.

Does anyone remember using curtain stretchers...? I remember how often my fingers were pricked (STABBED) by those nails..Mother would launder the curtains...immerse in cooked starch and then take them outdoors to put on the stretchers...when they were dry she would rehang them in the house and they looked so neat ...

Of I go to use an electic trimmer on my dog..anna

Anna.....I know our toilets, which we call loos, use a lot less water than yours, but the effective flushing has to do with the difference in the rush of water....whoosh....compared to the gentle circling of the bowl. I've never had any of my loos clog up in my 40 plus years here. I'll take effectiveness over beauty, thank you.<G>

I still freeze my meat in Al-foil as well. I remember those curtain stretchers.

Bobbie

I also remember those curtain stretchers and cooked starch. Also sprinkling the clothes and ironing for a couple of hours. Wouldn't want to go back to those things but do have many pleasant memories about other things in the past.

Yes, I remember cooked starch, and also, Mrs. Smiths Bluing. It was supposed to make white clothes look whiter and brighter.

My husband was drafted, soon after we got married, so I spent the first two years of marriage as an Army wife. Oh, the misery of washing and ironing those heavy weight fatiques, and also the regular khaki shirts and pants, and dress shirts had to be starched and ironed within an inch of their 100% cotton lives! All of the pleats and creases had to be exactly right, for inspection every day, or hubby would get into big trouble!

One of the other wives told me about pants stretchers! If used correctly they were supposed to be a big help with the daily laundry chores. I recall wrestling with that stretcher - trying to get the pant legs into the correct position for a good pleat. Finally I just gave up, and went back to the old ironing board!

Marilyne this time you mention is when I truly learned to iron. I too did most of my husbands clothing at first, but when he was away from me he sent it to the cadet laundry. Then when I came to the airfield he was stationed on he kept sending it out as it was so much more acceptable than when I did it. Any way in Alabama nothing would dry!!!! Boy was I glad when he wore out those KHAKI'S as work clothing and got back into jeans and cords for everyday wear. NO more pants stretchers till my son was in high school and they began wearing Chino's much ironed creased with a knife blade crease. He(son)learned to iron as I would only use the stretchers and they didn't do the job. They both began wearing whipcord cowboy pants or jeans on the ranch and that was great no ironing.

We all are mentioning mostly inventions that came with the invention of the light bulb. But I remember because of where I lived, the non electric life. Kerosene lamps, gas lamps, flat irons, candles, cooking on wood, heating house with oil stove, hot water heated on wood stove with pipe through fire box running to tank behind stove. This was great for dishes and doing laundry in Washtubs, bathing in the kitchen in a tin tub because the pipes to the bathroom only were usable in the summer. That commode was flushed with a 2 gal milk can. You went to the kitchen to fill the can and left it full for the next person. Sometimes it took a second or third trip from bath to kitchen to get the job done. I was always glad to wait till I got to school hahahaha where the bathrooms were winterized. Then at Tahoe school often closed from Christmas till end of Feb. We made up the time in summer so in effect had two mini vacations because of the snow. FAITH

Ben, I had to have my old toilet replaced a few years ago, but I didn't want to replace it with the new skimpy water ones that are now being sold. The plumber I know said he could still get me one of the larger water volume toilets and he did. While he was installing it, he told me about a guy that was having trouble with tough flushes) Now the following may be a little indelicate: He went on to say that he told this guy to get a stick (I won't mention the name he gave to this stick) and to keep it in the same container that the toilet cleaning brush was kept in. I'm positive you will clearly understand the purpose of said stick. Wasn't the invention of the stick grand?

Anna, I remember the curtain stretchers and I remember the shoe stretchers the shoe makers would use to "stretch" a pair of shoes that were slightly pinching a man's foot. I'm not sure this procedure could be used on women's shoes.

Bill H

What a great discussion but I hope you know a discussion is only as good as the participants and all who shared here were the best! I have no idea what the new discussion will be but I do know it will be a good one.

I just sent an email to a great niece and was telling her about senionet ...she is much too young but I wanted to encourage her to finish her education and to NEVER STOP LEARNING! Curious minds is so good for learning. Each time I learn something new and also it helps to stir my brain as I recall with the other posters different times, different places and how we all finally ended here.

Yes even a stick is a great invention...and of course from the early sticks we moved on to carved ones, decorated ones etc...it would seem for us to arrive where we are today it took many steps to bring us to this day and this time. Can you imagine what we will see in the next year? and what our decendents will see? Oh my it allows my imagination to soar as I think of what they may see.

I want to thank everyone for your input, for your memories. One thing we never mentioned was the technology used in war. While I would fervently wish war would never happen I do know many things used also have peaceful applications. I remember when I was about 20 I was on a step stool and fell against the sharp corner of a table. A couple of weeks later I had severe back and leg pains and my mother feared I had polio. When the doctor came to the house ( oh yes those were the days) he said no I had a kidney infection due to the fall.There was a time when that could have meant serious consequences but he said he was prescribing sulfa which had been invented and used during the war. It worked although I had to drink a full glass of water with each pill and could not include other liquids ..it had to be water and I can tell you I almost learned to hate water. So we find inventions change and find new uses regardless of what they were first designed to do.

To me this has been an exciting discussion ...perhaps if I am still leading a dicussion a year or so from now we can return to inventions and see what new have come into use and how we view them

May you all have a good day wherever you are ...gratefully, anna

Hello, and welcome everybody and thank you Anna for a most interesting discussion. I'm certain we all enjoyed talking about the inventions we cherish.
Well, I'm back on board the trolley again (the one Pat W built for us to ride in). I hope you like the topic I chose to discuss for the next two weeks . It's going to be about antiques. I'm certain most of us are interested in these wonderful old articles, and I'm just as sure most of us have a few of them on display in our homes. I have some that I treasurer. Two of these I have placed on the mantel over the fire place and three others I placed on the top of the living-room TV. So if you tell us about the antiques you or your friends and relatives have, I'll you about some of mine.
Well, I see the trolley is just about ready to roll. Now if you want a window seat I suggest you be at the first trolley stop because there are a limited number of them and it's first come first served, of course, these seats go fast.
When all of you are on board, I'll start the trolley on it's excursion to Antique Land.
Bill H

Antiques

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb

"A Quarter Well Spent: One Saturday morning a few years ago, my husband and I decided to go to a sale sponsored by a nearby academy to raise money for charity. It was crowded and I got a few items that I still cherish, but the most wonderful thing I purchased was a turquoise bowl about 14" in diameter with wonderful flowers and geometric design around the bowl. I had picked it up, but put it down because it was broken even though it was marked 25 cents. I just couldn't get it out of my mind so I went back to the table and picked it up again to show my husband who said to "put it back." Needless to say, I didn't listen to him and purchased it. As we were leaving, a man ran after me and asked to see the bowl. He said he knew it was an l8th-century bowl from Persia. A few years later, I went to school to learn pottery restoration and repaired the bowl. It is my favorite item in my curio cabinet and the best 25 cents I ever spent." — Marion, Aliquippa, Pennsylvania

ANTIQUES ROADSHOW

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Bill H

annafair, thanks for an interesting discussion and you did such a nice job of leading it. Really, I don't know how you guys all do such a good job - you make each discussion so much fun. Yes, let's come back in a year and review "what's new" - good idea.

And Bill, now on to Antiques! What fun. I'm looking forward to sharing some of my "finds" and hearing of everyone else's.

Annafair - thanks for the great job you do - Inventions was a super topic.

And Antiques will be, too - I guess we could all count as "antiques" in one sense of the word. But I won't go there............

I've just come into possession of a family antique - a portrait of my great-grandmother painted by one of the itinerant artists about 1870. We're thrilled to have it in our house, but I'm finding there are some responsibilities involved. I've had a local artist/restorer get her cleaned up, repaired, and the frame cleaned (not an inexpensive proposition). And now we have to get some additional insurance for her, and will have to have the portrait appraised in order to do that. It's still a great honor to have her with us. 8^)

Good topic, Annafair...thanks!

Bobbie

Can I post here about a very good article in a recent issue about the various religions of the world? It was most enlightening to me, and might be of some interest others.

I am happy to day I am not the oldest antique in my home. Most of the ones who grace my home were inherited from my husband;s family who came to America in the 1600's and many are now in my children's homes. There are four poster beds that are over 200 years old still with rope springs, cannon ball beds,and a spool bed. A Revolutionary rifle, some dishes, silver etc.

His family tree shows the early arrivals were men from England and I assume they were young since the first women who arrived to marry one of them came later. Some of the furniture was given away or sold when the his aunt died 20 years ago at 86 so it was lost to the family but that is okay ...it was heavy and cumbersome and wouldnt fit in most modern homes. Although it was beautiful.

I always enjoy looking at antiques..for the usefulness , the craftsmanship and the history so I think this will be a great discussion and a very good topic....anna

When my mother died and the family history was split up among the three of us, the most treasured were the old photographs of family. The next was mom's own paintings and sculpture and her varied collection of milk glass.

She had quite a doll collection and one of those was appraised, a type of Bylo baby I believe. But, as none of the three of us could find storage room in our homes this collection was sold at auction. She also had some silver pieces, an urn and so forth. Dad had the most family photographs dating back quite long ago, but unfortunately none were identified other then family resemblance.

The greatest gift other then dad's photos and mom's own artwork was my great, great maternal uncle's life's work. He lived until the mid sixties and had never married, preferring to search the family roots back to Ireland. I found out that we came to S. Carolina as indentured servants in 1721 and dispersed from there.

He had finished his book with a long genealogy that went to 1960 and included my oldest sister and myself. I think he had planned a second edition, but became too ill and no one carried on. It is not something I could envision taking on, but he had these books printed at his own cost and saw them distributed to family members. That is a great gift to see a succession going back to 1721 and just beyond and seeing your own place in it. That is a treasure!

Jeanlock, your request to post the article you read of the various religions of the world would not be appropriate here. I don't believe religions are antiques in the true sense of the word. You see, it would introduce a religious subject into this discussion and lead this discussion astray. I believe what you mentioned would be more appropriate in the Welcome Center and there the readers could comment on it to their hearts content. I apologize, Jean, but I must refuse your request. Please forgive me for doing so.

Bill H

I think about this discussion when I watch the Waltons reruns. This morning they grandpa stopped in a drug store and had old fashioned chocolate sodas. I don't think they have improved on those. They certainly don't have soda fountains in either drugstore or dime store ('course these don't exist either).

When I started typing the above, I thought I was still in the old discussion. Then when I went back I discovered we were talking about antiques. Well, I guess old fashioned ice cream sodas at old fashioned soda fountains might fit in here. I don't have any real antiques. There is a store in a shopping centre near here that has the most wonderful Victorian antiques. I always stop and look in the window. I don't go in because I would be afraid of breaking something.

I love watching the Antique Roadshow, but I have no antiques myself. Anything I once owned that might have eventually qualified failed to survive the rough-housing of a husband and three kids. I like carnival glass, for example, but it always seemed to wind up in the way of somebody's flying elbows.

I still sigh with exasperation to think of my former sister-in-law's collection. She lived on her family farm in up-State New York. Over the years she filled an old barn with antiques she collected from all over the state. Then when she and her husband divorced, she wound up giving him everything just to get the jerk to sign the divorce papers and let her go! ...Babo

I have just about nothing in the way of family heirlooms but back in the 70's and 80's my husband and I got "the bug" and spent so many weekends in garage sales, flea markets, sometimes even actually antique stores and shows and we had a ball. We collected a lot of stuff - as long as it appeared old we felt we wanted it. Of course we later found we had acquired a lot of junk and reproductions but, as a result became more selective and we learned as we went along. I could regret the many dollars mis-spent but it was such fun, met neat people, and we learned so much so, no, no regrets at all.

One area of collecting that really hooked me was early American pattern glass (not to be confused with Depression glass which came along much later). What I love about EAPG is the various patterns, some of it realistically named (Lincoln Drape which commemorates Lincoln's death, Garfield Drape, ditto for Garfield), Tree of Life (a most intricate, intertwined pattern of vines - or roots?, and then the just plain designs, usually even older and made of flint glass (they "ding" nicely when you tap them). There were whole sets of these but I restricted my collection to the goblets for space and dollar reasons.

Some patterns were just plain whimsical - the Grasshopper pattern comes to mind. This was kind of rare and I never found an affordable piece but it would have been fun to have one in my collection.

I thought the Garfield Drape pattern was particularly attractive and allowed myself the luxury of also adding a water pitcher, creamer, celery, and bread plate. Oh, and a piece called a "spooner" - a vase-like object used to hold - spoons.

What made this collection even extra fun and satisfying are the many books identifying the individual patterns, along with a bit of the history of each. Of course, then I had to start collecting the books! And, in studying the books I would find a pattern, new to me, that I just had to find. My, that was exciting!

I still have this collection and no one else in the family is interested. Occasionally I use the goblets but not often. Too bad as they're not actually that fragile - it's just that no one else seems to be as entranced with them as I am.

To drink out of a glass that someone else probably drank from in the early 1800's! Oh, it still gives me chills - good chills.

MaryZ, and Angelface, I had a cousin that kept most of the ancient portraits of the family I.G. grand parents, great-grandparents. She even kept the portraits of uncles and aunts and there birth years when ever she could find the same.Some of the portraits were not very good because the film and cameras of those days left a lot to be desired. Remember the old Kodak box camera with a wee little viewing glass in the upper right of the top of the camera, although I don't suppose these cameras are truly antiques.

Anna, I have seen beds with rope springs, but cannon ball beds I don't know about. Could you tell us what they look like? The few antiques I have were inherited also.

Louise, your concern of breaking things is why I hesitate in going into these antique shops. I always feel like I'm a bull in a china shop but it is great to browse around in these places and the employees are always so helpful

BaBi, I like to watch the TV Antique Road Show, too, and I also had a relative that had a collection of old, old articles. She lived in a rural area and her house sported a detached garage. The loft over the garage was huge a person could walk around in it with just slightly bending over at the sides and no trouble at all in the center, and you should've seen all the collectibles that were stored in that loft!!

Diane, what an interesting post. And what fun you had visiting all those garage and flea market sales

These are all very interesting post. I'm hearing about things I never heard..

I guess they are like a four poster but the posts are carved with a ball the size of a cannon ball at the top and so on down the floor where it then becomes a wooden support..The spoolbeds are more delicate ..the post is carved with small spools one after the other until again just before it reaches the floor the post becomes a wooden support >>the spool bed was about the size of a twin bed, the cannon ball which our oldest slept in and still has we kept the pegs for the rope springs but eventually as she grew older my husband laid a piece of plywood on top the pegs that held the rope and we had a mattress made for it ..the maker said it was a 3/4 bed. Since it was meant for two people ..they must have been small...my preference is for a queen size bed ( a king if I had room) and it always seemed crowded ///

I also have a genuine Morris chair.. it orignally had springs but they were so rusted ...we removed them and the cushions were stuffed with horse hair I think ..I know they were uncomfortable and itchy...again my husband used plywood for the seat base and the back is made with slats and a hooked piece of metal so you can make the back into a sort of recliner. It now sports latex cushions which I covered with a lovely uphostery print. It is in my guest room and is a very comfortable chair.

I also have a glassed bookcase, three doors, originally walnut ( my sister in law painted it white and the carved Indians (AMERICAN) she painted in bright colors ..it was sort of garish and when it didnt fit in her house she shipped it to us. The glass was hand made and has wavy sort of imperfections in it ..it is a large piece taller than my 5' highth and I would say perhaps 8' long a 18" in depth..I use the middle section as a curio cabinet the two side sections for some old books and some collectibles. We painted it a soft ivory although it must have taken 6 coats of paint to cover those Indians. I really would love to have it restored to its original walnut but would miss it so I just keep it ..two of my children wish it someday and they can do what they wish.

There are other things but I am so used to them I have to really look around and see what they are. We have photographs of some of his ancestors but no paintings ..Of course they were 11 brothers and sisters and I imagine the older ones had first pick of items as they married and left home.

I do have a lovely watercolor by one of his great aunts in the original frame and some pastels in very ornate scrolled wood that looks like walnut.

My oldest daughter enjoys the antiques ,,,one daughter in law as well and my youngest daughter is NOW beginning to appreciate her heritage.. did it take me that long ? I dont think so...

AND I consider real chocolate ice cream sodas Antiques...because there are so few places where you can find them >>>the local drugstore that kept the soda fountain closed up 20 years ago when the owner retired and now NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO MAKE THEM so I think they qualify ...anna ...

My father-in-law lived to age 99. When he died my husband inherited his huge rolltop desk made of tiger oak. A beautiful old desk which my husband uses every day just as his dad did. We've looked in many antique shops but have never seen one like it or in such good condition. We also enjoyed many hours collecting Westmoreland milk glass before shop owners became aware of its worth. LOL

FlaJean, I love those old roll top desks. The doctor my mother would take me to when I was a child had one of these. I would sit in his office just looking at the roll top and wishing I had one.
I have three articles that can be considered antiques. I love them all but I cherish two the most.One is a pocket watch that look very much like the watch in the heading. My grand-mother gave her son this watch on one of his younger birthdays. This watch must be over one-hundred years old and still in excellent working condition. I did have to have the winding spring replaced a few years ago. So I took it to a very reputable jeweler and watch repair shop to have this work done. When the watch repair man saw it he said: "This is a beauty." "Many people bring old watches in for repair but there not in the excellent condition this is in."
He went on to say most of these old watches the customers bring in have dents or scratches in them and they want us to take them out but we can't take dents out. He saw right off that there was not a mark or dent on the watch and this pleased him so much, He cleaned the watch and replaced the winding spring and this is all that had to be done. He didn't even have to replace the stem. It's still the original stem.
The watch is an Elgin and as the jeweler said it is a beauty. I hung it in one of those glass dome things with the gold chain wrapped around the inside bottom of this glass case and it sits on the mantel over the fire place. You would be surprised how well it still keeps time.
The other is three cut glass vases (not the leaded cut glass, but the true cut glass) my grand-mother brought with her from England when she was a young girl. They consist of two tall vases and one large bowel. I suppose the bowel could be used for a fruit bowel or the like. They each have beautiful design patterns cut into the glass and I have them sitting on top of the TV in front of the living-room's back window, and when the light comes in the window (not direct sun light) they glisten like diamonds. Considering the age of my grand-mother these cut glass vases have to be over a hundred years old.
I'll tell you about the other a little later

Bill H

My mother didn't really have any antiques per se as she had collectibles. We too have a rolltop desk, but it is from the fifties.

She had the doll collection, Hummels and milk glass. There was some depression glass as well. She also had numerous silver and silver plate serving dishes and a wide collection of china plate.

She had actual silverwear and not the stainless steel of today. She had an entire hutch taken over with china tea cups, coffee cups and chocolate cups and made sure we knew there was a difference.

The dishes were not so much a collectible as much as "good housewifery" in the forties and fifties. So much of what she taught us about the home and a woman's manners and behavior such as always wearing a hat and gloves when you went shopping, and changing your clothes, and purse with the season seems so antiquated these days.

It was very important to her that we be proper ladies and unfortunately we came of age in the sixties, so there were the inevitable clashes. Its interesting that everyone liked her and respected her. I remember my ex husband actually asking me not to say anything bad about him to my mother!

I have nothing as old as I am in my house except pictures and some jewelry from my mother. She did have an exquisite collection of antique pitchers. They were so lovely and she loved them so much. Most were the small cream pitchers. This collection along with the cabinet she displayed them in went to one grandson and his wife, child of my oldest sister. The kids love them and display them proudly. I doubt there is much monetary value but who knows since they come from everywhere in the world and are various ages. I gave her one for a present that was from the 1930's Fiesta wear I had kicking around my house for years.

I watch antique road show all the time. It is wonderful to watch the expression on peoples faces when they are truly surprised by the value of things. Faith

ANNAFAIR, you remark about the beds being for small people is so true. I love touring old homes, and have often noticed that about the furnishings of 100+ years ago. Everything was scaled smaller, for people whose average height was several inches below today's. Tall people, like Sam Houston, were the exception. Beds had to be specially made for them and were often out of proportion to the size of the room. I have looked a many a cozy little room and realized we wouldn't fit comfortably into most of them.

I was especially interested to read of your walnut unit with the handmade glass panes. I think it is rare to find such a piece with the original glass intact. It could well be that if you had the paint removed and the piece restored it would be quite valuable. ...Babi

I am sure you are right but I wouldnt want just anyone to do it and my one daughter who really loves old things will most likely get it and she will have it restored. While I love all the things I have that are antiques...the bottom line they are just things....beautiful, handcrafted, full of history things but you cant take them with you ...and they dont hold your hand when you are sad and they wont be there when you leave this life behind. So I have released my children from keeping anything they inherit if they need money are just new things have them appraised and sell them. Truly some are museum pieces and should be cared for in a proper place with temperature control I will just continue to enjoy them and let my children make any furture decisions ..they know thier age and any story about them.........I can see my children appreciate the things they already have been given and that pleases me but I dont want them to reach a time when selling becomes needed and I have made the things a burden instead of a pleasure.

I love going to old retored homes and seeing what they have there. The items fit in because they are from the same era as the house. Antiques ...a wonderful peek at yesterday...anna

When my parents were young-marrieds, back in the early 30's, and without a nickel to rub together, they visited my father's family farm. There was an old grainery there and, hunting around, they found two old chairs. Thinking they could exchange the chairs for money, they took them to a used furniture store nearby. The person who spoke to them was aghast - he told my parents that they had two lovely Chippendales and not to part with them!

Those two chairs have been part of Mom's decor through the years and now, mine. Unfortunately, Mom did not have an interest in antiques and at one time she painted the chairs white and recovered them! Later on she had them stripped and refinished - and recovered again. And now they are mine and I honestly don't know what they really are but I love the story and the fact that they're about the only thing I have that has some history in MY family.

I think in a way I don't want to know either that they ARE valuable, or that they are NOT valuable. So I just love them for what they are. But someday, I imagine, my curiosity will get the better of me and I'll have them appraised. Hey, maybe you'll see me on Antiques Roadshow!

Annafair, you have a nice attitude about your treasures and what will happen to them after you are gone. Your kids are lucky.

Diane,
Your mother was very fortunate to have talked to an honest furniture store gentleman. I wonder how many others would've been this honest as to tell her just how valuable they were.
Angelface555,
My late wife liked milk glass and her mother had a friend that collected Hummel. Now, I'm not sure whether it was Hummel or another make. Any way it was the kind that would once a year bring out a new collectable ceramic of a famous person. Wow! I just this second remembered the name. It was called Royal Dalton. This lady had a remarkable collection of Royal Dalton. She had them displayed everywhere in her house, even had shelves built high on the walls (not so high that she couldn't reach them) so she could display them there. They were beautiful and I imagine they were very expensive. However, she didn't have to worry about expense she owned a large advertising company in downtown Pittsburgh, Pa

Bill H

Royal Dalton is still very popular. I see it advertised and in stores and magazines.

Bill,

You have come up with another great idea for discussion! Congrats!

I have my parents china and silverplate. Its really charming and quite usable but can't be dishwashed so we only use it for special occasions. It was made by Community for just a few years as the china and the silverware match. They received theirs in 1934. Here's a link, if you click on the plate, you can see what it looks like. Deauville by Community

And here's the silverplate, click on the fork! Deauville Silverplate

Ann,
Thank you for those two good links and for all of you who are interested in browsing antiques on the web here's another great link
GoAntiques
On the left of the web page are the categories you can click on to view the various antiques and, as in Ann's link, click on the pictures to enlarge and read about them.
Don't miss out on this link and click on the pictures to enlarge them.
Royal Daulton Antiques

Bill H

It is satisfying to know that one's children will not be squabbling over who inherits what of Mom and Dad's nicer things. At our house, there are not too many items that would cause conflicts but there are some of my wife's paintings that are nice enough to be glad you own or perhaps one of Dad's teapot collection. A few years ago my wife made a list of our "treasures" with columns headed up "no interest" , "I would really like to have this", "I think XXXXXX should have this" "If no one else is interested " , with room for the individual to sign. If two or more wanted the same item, they could work it out right then. It worked great! There was very, very little conflict to resolve. It is nice to have adult children who really love each other. losalbern

Amen to that, Losalbern. I have little that anyone would care much about one way or the other, but I do know that my children would each defer to another who truly wanted some particular thing. ..Babi

When my husband and I were first dating, my mother used her nice Fostoria stemware for dinner one night. My husband (then my new boyfriend) while talking with his hands, tipped over the ice tea goblet and broke it. As it was no longer being produced, he was unable to replace it. She didn't use it again when he came to dinner. LOL.

After my mother's death several years ago, she left me the stemware. A couple of years ago we visited a collectibles store and just happened to find a replacement after those many, many years. We probably paid more for that one piece than she did for the whole set.

I was in the antique business for about 15 years, (until about 4 years ago), and only recently I've been selling off most of my cherished, "stuff". I'm keeping only what we truly love, or things that I think my two daughters, grandchildren or my daughter-in-law might someday want.

My speciality, as a dealer, was in art pottery, china, dinnerware, and glassware or crystal, dating from l930 to 1950. I now have about 6 full sets of dishes from that era, plus some nice Fostoria and Heisey crystal, and a couple of lovely sets of china. It was such fun finding and collecting all of the various pieces that are desirable to make a complete set. The excitement of 'The Search' - flea markets, antique shows and estate sales - is pretty much over and done with. Ebay killed off the fun. Now, ANYTHING that a person might want, for any collection, is on ebay - and it's much cheaper than anything from a store or show. So the thrill of finding a much sought after item, is a thing of the past! Just log on and place a bid!

My husband's hobby is music and playing in bands - so he naturally gravitated towards antique instruments, music, phonographs, etc. We have some beautiful old brass trumpets, Martin guitars and ukuleles, and a great little electric piano that folds up into a small suitcase. (from the l950's)

As for true antiques, (meaning things that are a hundred years old or more), I have very few of anything in that age category. I prefer things that are more contemporary, meaning approximately 55 to 75 years old. My favorite collecting time frame is the l930's - the era in which I was born. I love Depression glass, kitchen items, Art Deco accessories, etc., from that era. For furniture, I prefer the l940's which includes the blond, Heywood Wakefield pieces, and especially the rattan sets, with "tropical" upholstery, drapes, etc.

When you're a dealer, you try to stay within certain confines of buying and selling. But pretty soon you find yourself branching out and being attracted to all sorts of other items that you can't resist! Even now, I'm finding myself getting interested in researching and looking for things that I didn't even know about 10 years ago! It never ends. LOL!

Marilyne - well said - the excitement of "The Search". Oh my, were those ever the days! I haven't really checked out eBay that much and from what I've heard, I'm kind of glad it wasn't around in our treasure-hunting days.

One of our most thrilling collections (oh heck, they ALL were!), as far as unusualness, although not rarity, was our tambour clocks, made in around the 20's, I think (I've forgotten so much that used to be available for instant recall!). These were in the shape of what I believe were called camel-back clocks but made by the McKee Glass Company), and were made of glass - daisy and button pattern (see, I remember SOMEthing!). The fun thing was to try to find as many different colors as we could. The first one was vaseline glass and when we took it home, washed it well, and held it in the sunlight the first time - WOW! We also found a pink glass that was not one of our favorites, a deep amber that was terrific,and a cobalt blue that was pretty neat. The other colors we heard of but never found were clear glass and amythyst. And really, the fun was so much in finding - not so much in owning. I suspect that having this many in one collection is a little bit unusual, though.

The timepieces were not in themselves of high quality but I suspect that because of having been made of glass, not many survived.

I just LOVE this discussion!

I saw that branching out happen to a friend of mine out in Folsom. She started just collecting china then china figures and she got overloaded so she sold stuff at a Pedlers Fair. She had so much fun she opened a very small shop and then she spent every weekend buying stock for it. She also opened a corner of her shop into a Mexican Pottery display and made trips to several places in Mexico and was eventually bringing back all kinds of jewelry and fabrics even furniture. Her shop grew and she quite her regular job at the school system and now in her eighties she is selling her shop after 30 years. I love to go out there and look at the things she bought. I once had a collection of decorator plates copied from famous artists. I had all the norman rockwells and some of the Russels that I just stored and she bought them all from me. I have never been sorry. I made a small profit and that was my one foray into collecting stuff. faith

Marilyne,
I share your views about liking "stuff" not necessarily a hundred years or more old. I sort of lean to the "antiques" of my childhood or young adult period.
For instance, there is an antique and classic auto show that makes a stop in my city once a year. I'm more interested in the autos of the thirties, forties and fifties, although not too many of the thirties autos appear in the show. The really antique cars are OK but I don't spend too much time looking at them.
You mentioned estate sales. I recall an estate sale of a relative. An auctioneer and his assistance had the job of selling everything, autos, furniture, appliances, etc.The only things he wouldn't sell was the clothing and ,of course, not the house. He had a hang up about selling clothes. The auction was held in the nice weather and he had coffee, soft drinks and hot dogs. Even had portable "John."
Quite a large gathering attended and everything was sold except articles marked not for sale. This guy was a real gentleman and he made darn sure that when buyers came into the house everything was treated with respect, although most of the auction was held out doors. It was really something. I suppose I would've felt better about it if it hadn't been for the selling of the things a relative once held dear.

Bill H

You can view some classic cars by using this link. Click on the photos to enlarge them and the little icon at the bottom right of the photo will shrink them to a more practical viewing size.
Classic Autos

Bill H

The oldest thing in this house, outside of me, would not qualify as a true antique, since it was manufactured in 1921. It is a George Steck DuoArt Reproducing grand player piano that we couldn't resist buying in the early '60s. It had just been refurbished throughout so that all the tiny bellows, one for each note, had been replaced and all the wood chests had been remade with new rubberized fabric. When we first saw it in the shop, it was playing "Liebestrom", just exactly as it had been recorded by the artist many years before. That was the work of the "Reproducing" part of it. What a thrill that was! Our kids grew up loving that old piano with its collection of piano rolls that we accumulated and for a time, there was great discussion as to how they were going to divide that up amongst the four of them. But time takes its toll on player pianos too and the fabric on the chests and bellows deteriorates allowing the vacuum to leak out and the playing part to hit and miss notes. There was a time when I would tackle a repair job like that myself but those days are gone. I had a guy look at it a few months ago and he estimated it would cost upward of $4,000 to get it refurbished again. I am afraid it can't compete with the new player versions that have electric devices to drive the piano. But, hey, I have managed to patch up a few leaks with tiny slices of duct tape and I can still get a tune out of it! One of my first retirement undertakings ( 23 years ago!) was to remove the old "alligatored" finish that had gone bad over the years and I was delighted to find a beautiful mahogany wood beneath. It looked so much prettier with a new modern polyurathene varnish that I applied. Maybe you aren't supposed to do that with older things like antiques but I figured it was mine and I'd rather have it looking nice than keep it looking rather tired for more value later on. losalbern

I totally agree! I simply have no patience for the fad of having furniture and other household items that look like trash. Many of these brand new items are distressed so they will look like something you find on the curb or next to a dumpster!

Now if it was a very valuable piece and you knew it and painted it bright yellow with black polka dots...well that would be different wouldn't it?

Angelface my sister and I were chatting about her new furnishings on the phone and in the convesation she said, "Well, I hate that new chintzy chic decorating!" I really broke up and when she said, "What is the matter with you?" I answered ."Shabby chic, honey, Shabby Chic!" faith

losalbern, there's a great museum in Traverse City, MI, The Music House Museum, that is full of old "mechanical" music makers. We saw and heard about reproducing pianos there. They have one that plays George Gershwin playing his own music. Fantastic! Here's the web site.

http://www.mytraversecity.com/listing.cfm?listingID=88

Oh, Bill, I love old cars and try to get to the car shows once in awhile. We have friends who own a Model-T and a Model A. I once wrote about our Model-A which my other sold in 1948. It was truly a member of our family. If a car shows up at Kroger's or Sear's parking lot, I have no pride! Just rush right over to see the car and talk to the owners. It's my curse!

I have very few antiques besides the china and silverplate previously mentioned. There's a hand cut crystal punch bowl that a friend's mother brought here from Germany. Made by one of her friends(his business) in Auchsburg. So beautiful and probably 75 years old. I have a vase which resembles those fancy Japanese vases of the turn of the century(1900) but I don't think that it is worth anything, just something left behind by my grandmother. My favorite piece of Depression glass is a small pink juicer which is two-pieced and strains the seeds of a lemon or orange. Actually, its really only good for lemons and limes due to its size. And, there's a gateleg table left by a grandmother. Its been used ever since it was made and is probably 80 years old. My prize old things are formal pictures of the family farm from 1890's which includes my Ggfather and his 3rd wife plus 5 children, two of them from his first wife and 3 from his 3rd wife. I also have a modern(1999) picture of that same home that I took. Its in wonderful condition and has had additions made to it. My 90 yr old aunt grew up in that house and I sent her the picture of it now. She was just tickled pink!

Cobalt is a color I have always loved. Some years ago I found a pair of small cobalt blue bowls in silver settings at an antique shop. This was when I was still working and could afford them. They are beautiful, and I placed them safely (I thought) on a high shelf in my bedroom. Unfortunately, our cat knocked one off on one of her rambles, and chipped off a fair-sized bit. The value plummeted as well, of course. But they are still the same beautiful blue, and I just turn the chipped side away and enjoy them anyway. ..Babi

The museum you visited sounds very interesting. I really enjoy hearing some of the old mechanical music machines. They are so cleverly done! Your web site suddenly brought to mind another fabulous place to visit in that area. Just outside of Madison Wisconsin is a place called "The House On A Rock" where an artist named Alex Jordan built his "retreat" on a rock that stands 60 feet high from the plains around it and it is the most unusual home that you have ever seen. It is open to the public for a fee and certainly worthy of a visit. It turns out that Jordan was also a collector of all kinds of things. Antiques galore! He built a huge storage area for all the stuff he collected and then turned the whole area into a fantastic walk through to view everything on display. He had a passion for mechanical musical instrument bands and pipe organs and pianos and dolls and doll houses. He had one area set apart to show the homes and small shops of yesteryear. He has the worlds largest Carousel with carved horses and objects collected from the world over. Its gorgeous! There is so much more to his collections than I could ever think to mention. All I can say is, if you can do it, GO There! This man has preserved a wealth of another lifetime for all of us to see. And if you do go, allow yourself several hours to see it all! losalbern

Shucks, I should have done my homework and included the link to get there. It is www.thehouseontherock.com and I trust the good editors of SN will turn that into a link cause I don't know how! losalbern

Thanks, losalbern. John is taking one of our grandsons (almost 15) on a trip in June, headed in that direction. I'll certainly call that to his attention for a possible stop. Jesse is the "mechanical" one of our bunch - loves to do things with his hands and with tools. They're already planning stops in Dayton, OH (the Air Force Museum and the Wright Bros.), the Henry Ford Museum, the John Deere Museum, etc.

Haaa, Ginger, you beat me to posting the link. Good for you.

Bill H

Thank You kind Sir. Smile

Losalbern,
Your mention of the Player Piano jogged my memory of a player piano that one of the neighbor kid's family owned. Every Friday night his parents would play Bingo. As soon as they left the house he would invite our bunch in (notice I said bunch we didn't have "gangs" in those days). . But, anyway, in we went and we would each take a turn picking a roll of music and pumping away at the peddles. We each had a favorite tune and mine was the "Beer Barrel Polka." We didn't need Crack or Pot to have fun; we had fun doing things like this.
Does anyone remember the old wind up Victrola? My grand and one of her daughters each had one of these. You know the kind I mean. They were consoles and you'd wind them up, put a record on the turn table, place the needle attached to the playing arm on the record, and sit back and listen to Enrico Caruso and the like. I hope I spelled his name right. I must admit they didn't sound all that great, but, hey, in those days that's about as good as it got.
Some labels on these records had a dog staring into a large megaphone and over the dog were the words "His Master's Voice." Oh, how I wish the family had kept these. I wonder what the value would be. Heck with the monetary value, it's the sentimental value that is important.

Bill H

Ginger and Bill, thank you both!

Thanks for the link, Ginger and Bill.

The dog and the megaphone (His Master's Voice) was the symbol for RCA in those days. We have an old Edison gramophone - it was John's grandfather's, vintage about 1913. It plays the black celluloid cylinders, on a wind-up machine, with the large metal morning-glory "amplifier". Our girls always loved it when we'd take it out to play it. We also have about a box of cylinders - some of them are "comedy" routines.

You are Very welcome.

I do hope all have clicked on the Photo's when you get or got there as there is much to wet the appetite.

Mary Z, what a treasure that megaphone is for you and your children. I'd love to hear it playing those cylinders. Would you please tell us some of the titles of the music on them.

Ginger, yes all of these links are so worthwhile viewing.

Bill H

BillH, I'll have to find them first - but I'll get back to you about it.

John went way back into the basement/garage to find the box. We have 40+ of the cylinders. Some of the titles are "Softly and Tenderly", "Over the Waves", "Schottische", "Angel's Serenade", "I'm Afraid to Come Home in the Dark", "Lead Kindly Light", "Handel's Largo", "A Child Shall Lead Them", "Merry Widow", and a "comedy" one entitled (please forgive me for the incomplete word, but remember the dates) "A N----- Loves His Possum". We've been told that value-wise, the cylinders are worth more than the gramophone itself.

You are quite right that the cylinders are worth more than the player. And the one(s) you have that would be classified as "Negrobilia" is even more valuable. Stange as it may seem, lots of African-Americans collect this genre. The pressure on extant material is heavy and has pushed the price up considerably.

Howzat

That's very interesting, howzat. It never would have occurred to me. I guess all this would definitely have to be on our list to take to the Antiques Roadshow.

I've just contacted an appraiser for an appointment to look at the portrait of my great-grandmother (for insurance purposes). Maybe we should have her look at some of our other "stuff", too.

Thanks for the advice.

Mary Z

My thanks to John for finding the cylinders and I do hope he accepts my apogies for putting him to so much work. Of course, I remember the Merry Widow and I think I recall "Over the Waves" the rest I'm not sure of. I don't have any cylinders. Somehow, I don't think you would part with them even if the evaluation prooves to be very high.

Howzat,

I appreciate your input. I think you could tell us a great deal about antiques and emorobilia

Bill H

My old 68 year old mind is full to overflowing with "stuff". None of it will do much more than entertain me if I'm ever stranded on a deserted island. (^.^)

My main problem is retrieval. Sometimes someone will say something that works like a switch and, goodness, I come up with information that I'd forgotten I knew! Other times, I can't remember for the life of me so I do some research and relearn all over again stuff I already knew. Oh me. Life is hard, and then you die.

Howzat

Howzat

Your last post sounds like me.

Bill H

Well, I don't want to be left out....

I know a gentleman with a 'player' music box. You wind it with a crank, and instead of cylinders, it has large metal disks. The disks are at least as big across as the length of my elbow to finger tips, and the music they play is surprisingly clear and true. Definitely an antique. ...Babi

BaBi,

WOW! that is really some disk. About how many songs does one disk have and could one cranking play the entire disk through all its music?

Bill H

I found a web site that shows some aircraft of the 1940s While not truly antiques they are classics of that bygone era. To see them just click on

Air Planes

Bill H

Those players that play a metal disk (usually copper) with holes in them are highly collectible music boxes and cost in the thousands of dollars. I'll bet the man keeps the crank in a separate place so that curious hands will not over crank the mechanism. The spring, like a main spring on a watch, is easily broken if wound too tight. Yes, a proper cranking will allow the player to work for a long while. The sound is amazingly clear and beautiful. The disks are mostly classical melodies. There is a very large one at a nursery in East Texas, near Tyler. They are happy to put a disk on for you, but have signs DO NOT TOUCH around it. They paid $6000 for it several years back. You are fortunate, indeed, to ever have heard one of these music boxes.

Howzat

Long ago we had friends whose whole house was packed with their collections - as I recall they really loved Carnival glass but what everyone loved to experience was their musical instruments. Wish I could remember better but what I do remember was that they had one room rebuilt to house their player Wurlitzer. It was beautiful and wonderfully special to hear it play. My personal favorite area was their top floor where they had a bunch of antique music boxes. The best of all was one that played the huge disk and, as Howzat said above, it was just an absolute treat to hear it play. So deep and resonant - just exquisite. At the time I thought that was one thing in my life that I really craved to own. They also had a few music boxes that played from wax cylinders, not quite as nice-sounding but interesting. And also one object about the size and shape of a cedar chest or a hope chest. I'm not even sure if I ever heard that one play. I must not have because at that size it must have really been something else. I've always loved the self-playing, or mechanical musical instruments I guess because I never learned to play anything well myself. Well, heck, I s'pose there's still time!

Well, I did so own some music boxes. I had a small collection of those old face powder holders - you take the lid off and the music box starts playing until it needs rewinding again. These were not quality music boxes but fun. I gave them all away before we moved. It gets to the point where things DO own you, you don't own them. But I had a ball collecting them.

Bill, I see Howzat answered your question about the disk music box. The gentleman that owns it is elderly and lives quietly. His friends are such that he has no fears for the safety of his music box. I didn't mention that the cabinet that houses it is also very fine in appearance and in excellent condition. Since you mention one in a nursery in Tyler that cost $6000., I suspect this one would be valued higher. And yes, I do consider myself fortunate to have heard it play. I was astonished to hear music of that quality coming from a metal disk. ...Babi

Babi

I found this quote online and will try to go back and grab the rest of the article. Thought you might like to see just this part.

" In the 1880s Paul Lochman, a German, patented a music box that used a disk instead of a cylinder. When a hole was stamped in a disk, it would result in a metal projection on the underside. The disk was then placed over an arm that had what are called star wheels. As the disk rotated, the metal projections would turn the star wheels, which in turn plucked the comb teeth. Disks range in size from 4-1/2 to 27-1/2 inches in diameter.

For all practical purposes, the disk player put the cylinders out of business around 1890. While a cylinder was very expensive, disks could be punched out at 25 cents apiece. Polyphon and Symphonia, both based in Leipzig, Germany, were the major players in the disk industry.

Polyphon came to the U.S. around 1891-92 and founded the Regina Music Box Company. It flourished until Thomas Edison came along and invented the phonograph. Regina pinned its corporate hopes on other products, including vacuum cleaners."

And here's another site with pictures and pricing for these wonder music boxes. My Dad's family owned one which went to the oldest brother. He put it down in the basement along with the disks where we all played. My mother said that he let his kids play it all the time and throw the disks around like Frisbees. I don't know if anyone rescued it and have always wondered where it went. It looked like the bottom one which costs $2995. The upright model. Very beautiful cabinet,too. Music Boxes For Sale

From music boxes to vacuum cleaners. Ahh, what a comedown. But very profitable, I'm sure. Thanks for the research, Ann. ...Babi

Babi, we were posting at the same time and I left a link to music boxes for sale up there. Do look at it! I had no idea! and yes, from music boxes to vacuums. Not such a come down as a practicality! Probably sold more vacs than music boxes back then. My grandmother had a Regina upright vac, as I recall. Now where did that come from? My memory board is working this morning!

That was a great link on music boxes, Ann. It reminded me of several I had seen. I'd love to hear that sound again. Thanks.

Ann,

You always find the most fabulous web sites. The floppy disc I download the URLs to is getting full. Hahaha. But really that was a great site. I loved those dancing figures that were displayed in the windows of the music boxes. I wonder if they would move while the music played. Something tells me they do

I clicked on the other links at the top of the page and was whisked a way to the Betty Boob glasses. I seem to remember those glasses, however, after my mind has been jogged I seem to recall a lot of things. Then naturally I clicked on the Marilyn Monroe link. Oh my.

I'm learning quite a bit about music disks. I never knew they existed. What a treat it must be to listen to a disk.

Enons ago when I was about five or six, Mom bought me a Mickey Mouse wrist watch shortly after they hit the market. I believe they later came out with Minnie Mouse watch for little girls. Unfortunately my Mickey Mouse watch was stolen.

Bill H

In an earlier post, I spoke of the Victrola my Grand had. Well, I found a picture of some and also a very nice picture of the RCA dog looking into the Gramma Phone.If you visit the site you'll see them both. The large console cabinet model Victrola is the one Grand had. Here's the link.

Victrola

Why oh why didn't we keep those things? Well, I suppose some of us did.

Bill H

Bill, what a terrific link! We actually have an old stand-up Victrola just like the second one down in the pictures, sitting out in our garage. It was one of the pieces we couldn't sell at a reasonable price so we moved it with us, my husband again faced with the challenge of restoring it. The article gave pause to consider and also some excellent resources if he should decide to tackle the project. Thanks.

Diane,

You are welcome. I'm glad you liked the web site. Whatever you do, don't part with that Victrola. Even if you have to pay to have it refinished it would be worth it. I wish I still had Grands.

Bill H

I know, Bill. We used to have a smaller table model with the big horn. We did finally sell that one. Of course, I miss it. But unless we get a "deal we can't refuse" we'll probably keep the big guy and who knows, maybe my husband will even refinish it one day. In the meantime, we'll just step around it, carefully, and dream of the kind of garage that has CARS in it! What a concept.

Boop, Bill, Betty Boop! Geeeeesch! LOL! ROFLOL!

Bill may have had it right the first time! lol

My husbands hobby was boat restoration - he restored a 1908 sedan launch and the last one was a 1912 Bridge Decker. I have photographs on my wall.

My oak table dates back to 1927 and I have an oak desk which is about the same age. I have an oak sideboard too but think its 40's style. I threw out a chesterfied suite in pristine condition when I was a young woman it would have been worth a fortune now. Young ones are collecting these sort of things and restoring them.

Carolyn

Oak is nice, Carolyn. Sounds as if you like it, too. I especially like that honey-like color, warm and kind of glowing. Reminds me of pretzels.

A little disappointment to share. Our Victrola out in the garage is NOT a Victrola - it is a Brunswick! (me to husband, "A Brunswick??? What the heck is a Brunswick"). I guess the answer is that it is a manual type, wind-up record player that LOOKS like a Victrola. And all these years.....

Well, Betty's, er, ah, thingys were rather er, ah,

Oh, shoot, I'm outa here, Howzat

Only a man could have made that mistake!! Once again, ROFLOL!! Hahahahahahahahaha!

Wow!! I am so excited--LET ME IN HERE!! This is a terrific site--Let me click on the SUBSCRIBE button. this is my kind of subject--I know I am in the proper place--if no other word describes my mind better, then CURIOUS is the word--not quite antique am I, but getting closer!!! Wonder if the rule of something must be 100 years old to be a real antique is still the rule?

I have to leave here in a minute--but I am coming back!!!

Oh ladies, ladies please believe me when I say it was just a typing mistake. I didn't even know it happened. I should've staid with the Wizard of Oz link. Too many Bs. I'm going to have to watch my Ps an Qs. Oops! I mean Ps am Bs )

Diane

You know the old saying "A Victrola by any other name is still...."

Carolyn

I wish I had back all the good things I threw away. When I was a pre teen, I would read a monthly magazine called "G-8 and His Battle Aces–a story about a WW One combat fighter pilot/spy. I had a stack of them and many, many years ago I just threw them away. About a year ago I did and Internet search to see if there were still some around. Oh there were still some around alright and they were selling for up to and over a hundred dollars each depending on the condition.

Lenalu,

I'm glad you found us. Now don't forget to read the previous posts about Antiques. The Antique discussion goes back about a week. Your gonna like the posts. That's a good question about a hundred years making a real antique. Do any of you know? But mostly we are talking about old things we had/have.

Bill H

Bill like my sons comic books? I routinely gathered them and sent them to the dump. Along with a million other homeowners I only saved National Geographics and had many years worth to get rid of once and no library would take them and they went to the dump. A few years ago I finally stopped my subscription and saved my one centennial copy thats all. It was publ. in the 80's but I would have to find it and look it up to find the date. faith

The only 'antique' I have is a Wertheim piano, made in 1910 in a suburb of Melbourne. I bought it when I migrated here, before it's worth was known, and had it transported up to Alice. It is a proper iron frame (the iron frame full of fancy scroll work) piano, made of silky oak and rosewood, a wonderful old upright, which holds pride of place in my lounge room, and which I play almost daily. Everytime I have it tuned, the tuner falls all over himself in excitement, saying they don't make piano's like that anymore. I agree with him.

Bobbie

I have some dishes that I bought at my neibors garage sale as I had looked over what they had and was about to leave when the wife said have you seen these dishes I looked and was hooked took a piece of it with her permission and ask her to hold the rest for a short time, which she did and I took the piece into work where there were many dealers who knew about such things but I did not get to to to any as I went to work at 7am and had not talked to the dealers yet but had the one dish on my desk and it kept drawing me so I called on our 9am break and told her I wanted them well when I got to talk to those who were experts on such things they had never seen or heard of the piece that was on my desk but because it drew me to love it, the whole set was mine and I love looking at them in my Hutch and still do and they are not for Sale at any Price even a Million dollars.

I did a bit of searching in my spare time after I retired and found out they were made in Handley England in 1912 and later reproduced state side under the name Indian Prince. I do have some made in England and some made state side.

It's a funny thing about antiques. The different evaluations that are put on things by different people. A few years back I wrote a short/short story about an antique table, which I am posting here. Forgive the length, but I don't know how to link this. I thought you might enjoy it.
MR. GRAHAM’S TABLE
by Lorrie Gorg

It was a gem. Mr. Graham stifled his gasp of surprise when he saw it, the find was so unexpected.
The table stood beneath a stack of soiled books, a broken-runged chair, old seed catalogues, and various pieces of junk. But even the dust accumulation of years couldn’t hide the graceful beauty of the intricately carved legs and the curved symmetry of the extended sides. It was all he could do to hide his elation. How on earth could this country bumpkin have come into possession of such a treasure, he thought.
That morning, when he left his antique shop on his monthly hunting expedition through the countryside, Mr. Graham hadn’t really expected to find anything out of the ordinary. It was his custom to go from farm to farm, seeking old furniture, tools, period pieces–anything not new but in good condition that he could buy for a song, polish up, then sell for an outrageous price in his shop.
He was a ruthless dealer with a larcenous heart, but he made a very good living buying other peoples’ “junk.” Few of his rustic finds were truly antique, but Mr. Graham marked them up at a price that most of his customers thought was antique value.
“That was my old woman’s sewing table.” The grizzled old man had seen him looking at it. “She useta use it a lot afore she died, and I guess her mama had it afore her.” He glanced aside to hide his apparent grief. “Anyways, I cain’t use any of this stuff, and I’ll be movin’ afore long, anyhow. You sez yor’re a second-hand furniture dealer, mebbe you can find a buyer for all this stuff.” He nodded disconsolately at the roomful of discarded end tables, overstuffed sofas, and dusty table lamps.
But Mr. Graham hardly heard him. He had pulled the debris from the table and was examining it closely. $2500, he thought. At least. It had to be a Queen Anne, and in surprisingly good condition. He had seen one almost exactly like it in one of his “rare find” catalogues. I mustn’t let him know, he thought craftily. He pretended to look over the old farmer’s cast-offs. Worthless, really.
“I don’t think I can sell this table, those sides stick out too much,” he remarked diffidently.
“But I’ll give you $20 for that old dresser over there, and you can throw in the table. Maybe I can do something with it.
The old farmer looked disappointed, but finally agreed. Mr. Graham paid him half and promised to return the next day with his truck.
Driving home, Mr. Graham chortled happily and slapped the steering wheel in delight. He could see the table now, standing proudly in his shop, burnished wood gleaming, delicate legs beneath the unique side panels carefully polished. A find, indeed.
The next day he arrived at the run-down farm early. He was greeted by the old man, who had wiped off the dresser in anticipation, and the table—--Mr. Graham stared in horror.
“What have you done?” He bellowed.
“Whatta ya mean? This here’s the dresser you said you wanted. All I did was clean it up a little.”
“I mean the table! “ Mr. Graham, livid now, managed to get it out.
“Oh yeah, the table. Well, you said you couldn’t use it on accounta the sides stuck out too much, so I thought mebbe you’d pay an extra five bucks if I sawed ‘em off!”

Chortle, chuckle,lol!

Oh, Ginger, if you want to find the worth or name of the pattern of your dishes, just color copy one(I go to Walmart and ask them to do it for you). Or, if you have a digital camera, you can take it yourself, up real close. Then, when you have the photo, you can either mail it to Replacements.com or I even think you might be able to email it from your digital camera or from your computer. They will tell you how if you go to their website and call the 800#. My DIL has her grandmother's pattern and no one seems to be able to identify it so we had it copied and she is sending it to this company. They have a huge warehouse in North or South Carolina where you can take your china and sell it or you can wander through it to buy anything they have. Its like acres of china and silver and glass. If you looked at my links to my china, you were on that site. Try it and let me know if you find out what your pattern.

I went to the China link to no avail, I also went to a place that goes back one years to buy cups and they did not have it. Some day I will find the cups if not I will just enjoy what I have.

Thank You So Much for your concern. Ginger

Bobbie, your post about the piano brought back memories of the upright piano that was in our parlor along with the Victrola. . I believe the piano was a Balldwin. My mother could play the piano very well and she wanted me to take lessons. The grade school music teacher gave piano lessons on Friday after school for twenty-five cents. You see this was back in the thirties and a quarter meant a lot in those days. Again Mom asked me to take the lessons the teacher was givingt. But NO. I wanted to play out doors with the neighbor kids. To this day, when I see someone playing a piano, I could kick myself for not taking the lesson.

Ginger, you are so right. It is our love that puts the value on the things we cherish.

Lorrie, what an interesting story you wrote. I could just picture the farmer sawing the ends off the table and the look on the buyer's face. I had a very hardy laugh and as I write this I'm still chuckling. Sorta reminded me of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." too many times. By the way, Lorrie, you are a very talented writer. Thank you for sharing your story with us.

Bill H

Lorrie I loved your story and it serves that old man right. Makes you wonder if the the farmer had an inkling..hahahaha faith

Bill, my Mum had a Baldwin when I was young...the piano I learned on. Later, she sold it and bought a smaller Yamaha. While it was a good piano, it never sounded like the old iron frame upright. Consequently, when I migrated here, I wanted to buy an iron frame with the same excellent sound Mum's old Baldwin had, and I did that. When Mum got rheumatoid arthritis, she wanted me to take the Yamaha and shift it over here but I declined the offer as I'm so in love with my Wertheim. I think she was hurt but Dad understood. My Mum was an excellent pianist and singer. I grew up to her singing opera. To this day I love the opera she loved, and sing and play all the arias she sang and played. I also played violin (sold it when I migrated here) and flute (an Armstrong, which I still have and play, and which could almost be called an antique now) and Classical Guitar (which I also still have and play). Being a girl and musically inclined, I chose the piano....and flute, and guitar lessons over outdoor play. <G> I cherish all three of my instruments and love playing them. If my house burned, I'd gather up my photo albums and my 3 instruments, the things that mean the most to me.

Bobbie

Good sense of priorities, Bobbie!

I have one of those Regina type antique disk music boxes, and yes, it sounds wonderful! My mother gave it to me. She received it as a gift around 1950 from her sister, who was an antiques dealer. I would never, never sell it - once a lady tried to offer me $7,000! For those of you who would like to hear the sound again, try this link: http://www.mbsi.org/music.html

Bobbie, the piano my Mom had was not an iron frame upright; it was made of wood the kind of which I don't know. However her piano had a beautiful finish and the tone was excellent I had a cousin that learned to play the piano by ear (or is it air ?) He never used sheet music but I imagine he must've taking some lessons, but I don't remember him doing so. Is this possible?

Judywolfs, that was a n excellent link you gave us. I can see/hear why you would never part with it.

Bill H

Hey, I found some nice pictures of antique pianos. The first short paragraph you read gives an explanation of how to determine the age of your piano. As you scroll down the page, there is also an explanation beside each piano picture. It is an interesting web site. You can view it by clicking on

Antique Pianos

Bill H

If you would like to see a collection of Liberace's fabulous pianos, some of which they say are antiques. You can get there by using this link

Liberace's Piano Collection

You can brighten these pictures by using your picture editor

Bill H

This is how old furniture turns up in odd places, like old second hand stores and thrift shops.

In 1950 my husband did a much needed repair rebuilding a kitchen floor and a back-porch and steps that-were full of dry rot. He offered his services free to the elderly lady as she was living on a small pension and just could not repair her house. She in return gave him his choice of furniture she had stored in her garage and attic. He brought home a mahogany dining room set with six chairs bought from Sears around 1905 which was beautiful but all the finish was really badly damaged, along with a dark mahogany bedroom set with a huge mirror on the dresser, an ornate highboy and a bedstead with a fancy carved headboard that reached almost to the ceiling of our modest little postwar house. We did have the old fashion metal strap and springs removed and fixed to accept a box springs and mattress. And a piano which was a Victorian Upright very fancy carved walnut and the finish was crazed but I didn't do anything to it but have it tuned. Then I took lessons and it was really great to have. When we moved in 1954 we donated that "old" furniture to our church???

Well they loved the piano and fixed it all up and had it for many years. As I matured I keep thinking, why oh why didn't I keep that beautiful stuff. There was never going to be a way I could buy such things again as they were really turning into antiques every day they existed. I should have refinished everything and kept it but I was young(and foolish need I say) and wanted new things. faith

Bill....thanks for that site. My piano looks more like the late Victorian, with the sections and fancy work in both the top and bottom sections. To discover whether it was an iron frame, one had to look inside it. If it was very heavy, it was an iron frame. The removalists groan when they see my piano.<G> If your Mum's piano had a beautiful wood finish, it was probably an older piano and most likely an iron frame. In re playing by ear. My son plays by ear, and like you, he preferred to be outside playing sports to inside taking piano lessons. Both my daughter and I had many lessons. Lessons tend to restrict one's ability to play by ear. I can only play by ear now when I play the chord method. For the past 20 years, I have had to re-learn the flute to play by ear so I can accompany singing around the campfire (when I can get somebody else to play the guitar). I can play guitar by ear, having essentially taught myself to play both classical and the chord method. Your cousin has a real talent. I hope he's still exercising that talent.

Bobbie

Ginger, I noticed that you said that you had found your china on the Replacements site that I told you about. Is that right? That's great! What is the china's name and manufacturer?

Thanks for the links, Bill. I really enjoyed looking at all those pianos. I know I've seen and 'Early Victorian Upright' before, but I have no idea where. The Baby Grand from the 20's and 30's, too.

I could not believe that rhinestone covered piano of Liberace's. No wonder people had mixed reactions to the man as a musician. But the small upright piano that he is standing beside is simply beautiful! I longed to caress it..which of course would not be allowed.

We haven't talked much about antique books, have we. I have two old books with some of the pages still uncut, but they are only two of a 20-volume set. When I found the pages were uncut, I was reluctant to cut them myself. They are a collection of stories by famous authors, published in 1902 by the Bodleian Society. I have volume 2, "The Sea", with photographs (or paintings?)of Charles Reade and William S. Gilbert, and Volume 14, "Enchantment", with photo or/paintings of John Ruskin, Rudyard Kipling and William Morris. All illustrations are protected with tissue thin page covers, but the illustrator(s) are not identified. I'd love to ask an Antique Roadshow appraiser about them.

...Babi

Here it is will be back with one more.

Indian Prince

and the Replacement page is Indian Prince replacemant page

Annie3 found it for me.

Ginger

Faith, I believe we all did foolish things when we were young. How many of us threw things away never believing they would be valuable antiques. My mother's family had some very beautiful furniture that needed some restoration, but instead of restoring them they either gave them away or discarded them.

Bobbie, perhaps my mothers piano was an iron frame. It was very heavy, and when it had to be moved into another house, the movers charged a considerable amount of money to move the piano plus we had to pay an insurance premium in case it was damaged.

But, Bobbie, if my cousin never took piano lessons how could he learn to play by ear? I don't remember him taking lessons. Perhaps he did.

BaBi, I saw Liberace's piano collection when I was in LasVegas They are really something to see and they are kept gleaming. Of course, there's no touching them by the visitors of his museum. And thanks for introducing the subject of antique books. I don't have any, but maybe some of our participants can tell us something more about them.

Bill H

Bill, re: playing piano by ear. I do that, although not at all well and I still remember the very first time. It was on my grandmother's piano (I was probably around 4 or 5) and I plunked out My Country Tis of Thee - not even in the key of C. I went on to pick out a few chords that I would then match up with various notes and, depending on the piece, sometimes sounded pretty good. Later I took lessons. I've always just loved the piano but to this day, I neither read music very well, nor do I play very well by ear. With that precocious beginning I just never progressed much. But I enjoy the daylights out of either as long as I'm the only one listening!

Interesting posts about the iron frame pianos - never knew about that.

Any one who plays an instrument without being able to read music is said to be "playing by ear". It just means that someone is able to play music (well or not so well) but have never learned to read music. Some musicians are very self conscious about not being able to read music. Yet, some of them play exceedingly well to the enjoyment of all who hear them play. My mother could transpose music, as she read it, when playing for singers for whom the written music was in a key too high or too low for the singer's range. Too shy to sing herself, she played at our church for soloists, duets, trios and quartets.

Remember, playing by ear is what composers do when they create music. Before they work it out by ear, and then write it down, there is no written music.

I often took my music lesson money and went to the movies instead. I have to work long and hard on a piece to figure it out and then memorize it. My fingering and timing is still pretty awful.

Howzat

BILL.....From what you say, it sounds like it was an iron frame piano. It's a shame she sold it. I also had to pay extra to the removalists. I think Howzat explained about playing by ear. Some have that ability. I did until lessons drove that out, but have worked on regaining that ability for many years now, and BTW, HOWZAT, I now write music, mostly country <G> but am getting royalties for several of my songs which were accepted by Aussie country music stars. I often sing and play them at the Country Music Musters. It's an easier way for my music to get noticed, rather than sending them in. HOWZAT, I'm quite good at transposing as well. Since my daughter played clarinet, which is a B flat instrument, and piano and flute are C instruments, I often transposed so we could play flute/clarinet duets. Also, like your mother, I'd transpose down to a lower key. It's very easy to do when one plays chords on the guitar as well. Isn't it a shame that your mother was so shy. She sounds like she was extremely talented musically.

Bobbie

Ginger, no wonder you bought that china. Its just beautiful!

It was for the First time in my life I was in love with art and it was a good thing for me to know why artist paint as is it the love of what they see in this world that if we look around us We can see it also Kinda like enjoying the scenery of a detour and not see so much Gloom and doom. I love Music also but cannot carry a tune or play an instrument. It was this discussion that reminded me of my love of art and since have checked out a couple of painting that I have to try to find where the painters have gone from the time I purchased the paintings of the sea that I so admire but do not Love like the dishes.

Ginger, let me know if you find a way to track down little known painters. I bought a painting of Montmartre (on my one overseas trip)that I really like. I tried to find the artist once thru' AOL, but have not tried the other search sites. The signature on the painting is Patnitch..obviously not French. Montmartre was a popular locale for painters from all over the world. ..Babi

Howzat, how did you explain to your mother about using the piano lesson money for the movies?) What you say about composers playing by ear before writing the music is true. Just imagine how talented the great composers were/are.

Bobbie, it is so wonderful that you can write music, sing and play musical instruments. I think that it is a God given talent for all those who are talented in the many arts. And congratulations on having some of your music accepted by the Aussie country music stars.

Ginger, you said that you love paintings and music. I believe the appreciation of the arts is also a wonderful gift.

These posts are all so remarkably interesting.

A little more on piano playing.

A few years ago, one of the more fashionable department stores in my area had a gentleman dressed in a tuxedo playing a piano by ear on there glitzy first floor. This guy would just play one melody after the other, and play them very well. Some of the lady customers would approach him with a request and he would just swing right into the song without missing a note. I watched/listened to him for the better part of twenty minutes and it seemed like there was no end to all the songs he knew.

He was an older gentleman and I suppose he had been playing piano for most of his life. My, oh my, he was really good.

Bill H

As "they" say at Congressional Hearings and at criminal and civil court trials, "I am sorry, I do not remember" what I told my mother. I was an only child until age 10. I was "contrary" as my grandmother Adams put it. From an early age I "explored" Dallas, Texas, using my feet, my bicycle, the inter-urban and street car system (I quickly learned about "transfers" and could go a long way for the price of one fare). I was a willful, selfish, overbearing child and only saved from a life of crime by my discovery of books, where I read of such people as myself and gradually came to feel shame about it. This brought reform.

My poor sainted mother. She loved me anyway. When I returned from my "travels" she fed me and gave me a bath. My father was always away, working. If Mother ever told him about me I don't know of it. She never mentioned my theft, from her purse, of the small change I needed to finance my expeditions. Of course, the world was a safer place then. Today, a child would be in great danger to do such things.

Howzat

Bobbiecee, you say you have composed counry music. Has any of it been heard in this country? I love country music.

Howzat, what a wonderful post. I have always believed that if youngsters only learned to love reading, it would open up worlds of understanding that could save them from all sorts of difficulties and errors. ...Babi

If I find a place that has Artist that are not so well known I will surly let you know.

Howzat, as BaBi said: "What wonderful post."

Bill H

When I wanted to take piano lessons at age 7yrs, during WWII, my parents agreed but finding a used piano proved very difficult. So, for the first year of lessons, I got up early and walked to school to practice on the school auditorium piano. I continued my lessons for 7 years when I lost a favorite teacher and just didn't have the oomph to continue. I never considered myself very good but adequate. It was all classical music and I loved it! Gave me an appreciation for music and art. I did sing in many different groups and loved that,too. I am strictly a "FAN" when it comes to talent but I do have a good time, attending many different venues of music performances.

My grandmother started playing the piano at the age of 5 or 6, strictly by ear. She had a 3rd grade education but could play anything you could hum. I remember when she and my grandfather celebrated their 60th or 65th wedding anniversary, that the family gathered around the piano singing whatever she offered to us. My only talent in that department is picking out the melody of most music.

Ann,

I have a Tin Ear. I love music but am incapable of playing any insturment, Just the Radio. Can't carry a tune in a Bushel Basket, sing in a monotone. I envy those who can play by Ear or have taken Lessons that allow them to play an instrument. I always wanted to be able to play the Piano. No luck, no money for lessons or to rent a Piano, even if my folks would have considered it.

Tiger Tom

I studied violin at school from first thru ninth grade. I then took some private lessons but could not afford it at that time. When I got that piano I bought one of those books Learn Piano in Six easy lessons...hahahahaha Well I couldn't make heads nor tales of it but I could read music. So I went to a teacher for six (or so lessons). She made me practice scales an hour a day. I wanted to play popular music right now and was to busy with baby's and house and business to devote enough time to the music. So I really never learned to play. My younger sis however after playing my piano once or twice just for fun, began lessons. When she and hubby got settled she bought an organ first then added the piano and studied for at least twenty years. Some of the last years she was playing in her church too every Sunday. She still has some beautiful equipment though now she has those wonderful computerized piano and an organ that will accompany her with a full orchestration if she sets it that way.Music takes more than devotion however..it takes talent. Faith

My one foray into musicianship was in junior high school. I decided I would like to try out for the band and learn to play an instrument. Knowing very little about the various instruments, I opted to learn how to play the trombone. My mother was not enthusiastic about this, but she went out and bought a second-hand trombone. I did well at learning to read the music, but playing the trombone was something else. After many efforts to get my notes up where they should be, the band teacher finally walked over and picked up my instrument himself. After a few toots, he informed me that I was flat, the instrument was also flat, and between us we were really, really flat. I dropped this abortive attempt at the next semester. I don't know what happened to the trombone. If mother was lucky may have re-sold it. ...babi

Tom, I can play one other musical device as well as the radio, and that being a CD on my computer

Faith, I wonder if it is possible to learn anything in six easy lessons )

BaBi, that sorta flattened things out.

To view some very nice antique pocket watches of years gone by please click on the link below. The watches appear on the left of the page. Clicking on them will bring up an enlarged picture on the right. Clicking on the enlarged picture on the right will bring up even larger details of the selected watch.

Antique Pocket Watches

Bill H

Bill,

I have an old Railroad "Plum" never could remember if that should be spelled with a "b" or not.

Tiger Tom

Louise....I don't think that the songs have made it to the US. The 'stars' weren't big enough, although one is getting bigger, Jane Saunders. The others you probably haven't heard of, Beccy Cole, Karen O'Shea, Greg Williams and Christina George. Most of the songs I write are a combination of Aussie folk/country....about the outback. I lived in the middle of the outback for years. They say you can take the person out of the bush but not take the bush out of the person. Even now, altho' I say I live in Brisbane, I'm considerably out of Brisbane, surrounded by bush and close to mountains and rain forest. I'm actually going way out bush in June, to visit my friend Anneo, who lives 1,000 kms west of me, really in the bush. I'll take my guitar and flute with me, of course, and sing country.<G>

Bobbie

Attention, attention!!!!Just a little notice here! On PBS this morning they are running an interesting piece about "Toasters". Antiques! The history of sliced bread. The interview is of a man who owns all these toasters. Try to listen to it. They do repeat most of the this stuff throughout the day. I have already heard it twice today. For instance, did you know that sliced bread in bags didn't come about until 1930?

Oh, Bill, how could you! "That sorta flattened things out"??? I'll bet you write limericks and love puns, too. (So do I. Puns, not limericks.) ...Babi

Sometimes old things are the best, like the old timey butter dishes which had one level for the butter and another for the ice underneath, they're making a comeback as well as the toaster rack!

I have never understood how you keep toast WARM on a toaster rack, does anybody know? but bought one myself after they brought me one in England.

Also the three tiered servers, you see them everywhere now, used in all sorts of ways but that's another old old idea.

I absolutely LOVE Antiques Roadshow and the English version in particular, I have NOTHING whatsoever I could bring to one of those shows, and it's amazing what all they find and what it's worth, I wonder if the dealers ever make an offer on some of the things? Some people want to sell and some are so disappointed, they just KNEW their grandmother's mother's urn was valuable and it was a copy. You can learn a great deal from watching those two shows!

Ann, thanks for that notice, will try to tape it today!

Imagine lugging your stuff IN there and finding out it's worth nothing at all, too.

I've always heard that appreciation of antiques is something that comes with maturity, I never cared for them much before this but am finding, (me who cares nothing about a car) that I'd like to have one of those slick pretty 1930 roadsters, what for, I have no clue, and since you can't even GET in my own car without pushing aside a stack of books, I doubt I'd be a good steward of it, either, better left in the hands of enthusiasts.

PBS is rerunning Mr. Rogers and the other day at lunchtime he went to an old auto show and it was marvelous, what all they showed him and what you can learn from that show too, so much to learn, so little time!

Love this Curious Minds series! Love the trolley in the heading.

Great job, Bill!

ginny

Good point,Ginny. As I recall, I once associated "antique" with dark, heavy, squat gloomy furniture. Who would want that? We live and learn (she tritely said). ...Babi

Ginny, I've always thought the toast rack was to keep the toast crispy, from getting soggy, which is does lying on a plate, not to keep it warm. Possible?

Tigar tom I still have somewhere in a tool box my husbands" plumb bob" from when he ran chain for a survey crew up in Nevads when they were building that Army airfield out by Lemon Valley near Reno. I always loved that think for its beautiful brass and its lines. I often wonder how much that thing weights. I know I used it for some funny stuff like making a paint line straight down the wall. I think my string was all worn out and I took it off and then stored it in the tool box in a paper bag. Must go look for it.faith

Mary, I don't know!! Realy? How do they keep it warm? I've had it brought to me at a table in a not so cool restaurant warm as...er..toast but at home I can barely wrench it from yon toaster and it's cold? Soggy toast!! That makes sense!!

Babi, well better late than never she also tritely said ahahahahahHAHAHAH boy I wish I had now some of the things I passed up while in my callow ish youth!

Faith, I have my father's plumb line and it's lead, I have all his old woodworking tools including my favorite, a hand drill which you turn a wheel on, I love that thing, sometimes the old things are the best, we had a theft where we kept the tools and the thieves left all the valuable old stuff and went with new junk anybody can replace, shows you where their minds were.

ginny

Well those old drills always made me think of my egg beater in the kitchen. Antiques for sure. The inventions that predate electricity are so interesting. I used to watch the Yankee Workshop and see all these hand tools our forefathers built America with at least till we had steam in factories and things began changing. But it was early twentieth century before electric stuff began replacing old hand tools. We had those drills and of course many saws including the big cross cut that the boys used on brush and trees in the back of our lot at Tahoe. Many styles of axes and my grandfather had a big box wood carving knives that fascinated me.

He could play his hand saw like it was a real musical instrument. Sounded much like a high soprano humming. Faith

Tom, watch those "Ps" and "Bs" they can prove to be hilarious.

Ann, thank you for the heads up on toasters. I'm probably showing my age, but I remember when most of the bread loaves were still uncut. I liked the way Mom would cut an extra thick slice and put butter and jelly on it for me. Yummy, so good.

BaBi, that was truly meant to be a pun, but I don't have a clue on how to write limericks

Ginny, your post reminded me of a wealth man's daughter who, back in the thirties, drove a black thirty something Packard convertible roadster around the neighborhood . I was only a kid at the time, but I would watch as she sped by, top down, with that beautiful blonde hair of hers blowing in the breeze. I suppose a guy is never to young to stand in awe of a beautiful young girl.

Also, Grand had some sort of toaster rack thingy that she would place a slice of bread in, close it up and place it over a stove burner until one side was toasted, then turn the thingsy over and do the other side. Had to be watched very carefully

Bill H

Faith, I've always loved that kind of mournful sound of someone playing the saw.

My thanks to all of you who participated in the Antique discussion. Your many interesting comments, stories, and great web links made this a truly remarkable and successful discussion. I read about so much I never knew until I read your posts.

But now, the Curious Minds trolley is pulling back into the station and our excursion into Antique Land is over. I hope you enjoyed the trip as much as I did. If you had a window seat on the trolley please be sure to wipe the nose prints off the windowpane before exiting the trolley

Tomorrow will start a new Curious Minds discussion and tom will be your discussion leader.

Bill, I loved this discussion even if I mostly lurked and I learned a lot! Thanks to you and to all who participated.

Great discussion, Bill - thanks a lot for the idea and the moderating.

Ginny, I don't think keeping the toast warm was a priority. When we've gotten toast in Europe or New Zealand, it was crispy, but at room temperature.

Awwww, so soon? I loved this discussion and forgot we only had two weeks. I feel I was just getting started. But thanks, everyone, for the really interesting posts. And thanks, Bill, for being such a good leader. Really enjoyed this.

Thank you for this discussion. I enjoyed every post.

My thanks to all of you for your compliments, but it was you folks who made the discussion.

Bill H

Great food for the mind this discussion. I know the next topic will be just as fascinating. Let er rip.......faith

All,

Good Morning, and for the Gals, Happy Mother's Day!!!

Now, this discussion will be about personal firsts you have had in your life. First day at work, first meal you cooked, first time away from home, any first that was memorable, funny, or fun for you to remember and tell us about.

Think about it, I am sure there are many firsts you can come up with. I haven't even touched on the categories. Maybe the first time you jumped out of a plane with a Parachute. Doesn't have to be all that unusual at all. Just something that you remember.

I will start it off with my first day in the Air Force.

Tiger Tom

First Kiss

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion.

Topic for May 11-24:

Personal Firsts

We Are All Famous Firsts!
Click and enjoy!

Remember your first day in School? First crush? First time you played "Spin the Bottle?" First time you Flew Solo? Kissed a Snake? Wrestled an Alligator? (for the gals) First time you wore makeup on the Q.T? First time you got caught at it?

What "firsts" in your life that might be memorable, humorous, or just plain fun to remember, that you would like to share with us? Nothing embarassing or intimate, least not TOO. We would love to hear all about them.

Join our discussion and tell all.

Your contributions are most welcome Discussion Leader: Tiger Tom

All,

My first day (Hour) in the Air Force:

After induction and swearing in, we boarded a Commerical flight to California where our Basic Training Base was located outside of San Francisco.

Arriving in the early morning we were taken by bus to the Base.

When I got off the Bus I had a Cigarette that I was finishing so I flipped on to the ground. All of a sudden I had this nut case screaming in my ear. He face was an interesting bright Red. I tried to edge away from him all the while looking for the boys in the White Jackets with the Butterfly Nets to take him away. He finally stopped but that was just to catch his breath. The then continued for a few minutes more. I am not sure what he was talking about because he was almost incoherent. I think it had something to do with the Cigarette.

That having been over and done with we boarded another Bus. We were told that we were going to have Breakfast. So, I piped up: "We already Had Breakfast at the Airport." Well, msut have been a cousin of the first guy, because I was treated to another guy screaming in my ear. I couldn't even try to edge away as I was in a seat and he was in the Aisle. So, all during the short ride I was hearing about how I should keep my mouth shut. The Air Force said we were going to have Breakfast and that was that.

Left the Bus, into the Mess Hall, and the first thing I saw was a guy I had just graduated School with mopping the floor. So, I said: "Hi Tom, what you doing?" Bingo, one more madman screaming at me. The most I got from that was I was not to talk to anyone in the Mess Hall for any reason.

By that time I was thinking" Three years, Eleven Months, and 29 days left to go in the Air Force. It was all down hill from there.

My first day in the Air Force. Memorable for the amount of times I got chewed out in the first hour of my Air Force tour of Duty.

Tiger Tom

I was the first woman supervisior at the Bendix now called Honeywell plant where I worked, we had 8,500 people working there.

FIRSTS... Thanks for the invitation TIGER TOM. Guess I am now so long in the tooth that I have forgotten the first time I did anything. Can just about remember yesterday. Better try and kick you off with something.

Has to be something fairly recent, and even that will excercise my grey matter beyond its normal boundaries. How about computers ? This funny little laptop thingy that sits on my desk that I bought a year ago and drives me to despair on a daily basis.

My first introduction to the world of computers was on my retirement when I did some part time work in the villages Tourist Info. Centre where we sold some "touristy" items. Our stocktaking and auditing arrangements were straight out of the Middle Ages.

One day this salesman arrived with a computerised "till", and gave us an hours instruction on its use. Unfortunately I was the "Joe Soap" on duty the next day.

One of the items we sold was Sweat-Shirts with a Yorkshire Dales logo. On a really good day we would maybe sell 2 or 3. At the end of the day I pressed the Audit button and found I had sold over 700. and I was over £10,000 short.

Took some explaining.At that time we banked at BARCLAYS Bank, and I had the habit of writing "nonsense" verse in the Centre diary each day. The next days verse was something on the lines of :-

Fridays the day, that muttering darkly,

I stagger up t'street to see Mr BARCLAY,

Loaded with pennies, full of contrition,

Dreading the day they check my addition.

I soon got wise to a system. I started a " Slush Fund" in a little tin box. When I had a little bit too much cash at audit. I put the extra cash in the slush fund, and when I was short I made it up out of the slush fund.

I was then called to order by the County Auditors who wanted an explanation why I was the only guy in the system who got it absolutely right every time.

No. I didn't get the sack.But the fund was £40 in profit when I gave the job up. The other assistants spent it on fishing tackle for my farewell gift.

The first time I went to France I was rather nervous about visiting the Loo because I had heard terrible stories about French WC's. To play safe my husband and I went into a restaurant for a meal and then decided we would pay a visit to the Loo. He went in a door marked Hommes so I duly went in a door marked Dames. You can imagine our surprise when we met each other face to face inside! Eh Voila! Quelle surprise!

A wonderful way to start the morning! a laugh and a little tear. The tear is for TTom and his first hour in the Airforce. My hubby came home on his first leave with just such a story only much more than the first hour. My first encounter with real prejudice was in Reno just six weeks or so after I had my first baby, a little girl, at age 15. I had her in the buggy naked as a jaybird with a little dress and her diaper waiting to slip on at the end of the time, and light blanket folded at the bottom in case I needed it. She was in the sun shine as the M.D. was of the opinion she needed 15 minutes in the sun on each side (hahahah sounds like a recipe) everyday. I took the opprotunity while walking to the store. I was a very young, skinny and short thing at 15 and I wore a braid down my back.

A Lady came out of the store and gasp when she saw the baby and she shouted,
"Wait, let me cover that child. What in the world is the matter with you young lady. I am going to find out who this baby's mother is and tell her never to let you babysit again."

"Pardon me Mrs. but I am the mother!"

And with that I did cover the baby and go into the store. faith

Jissup

You bring to mind a first for me with WC's.

While visiting Germany, I noticed along the highways the places called WC's. Well, of course, stopped and went inside and found there were vending machines (for needs inside the booths), which were not stocked with tissue. ( Ummmm..hope this doesn't sound too vivid...)

I expected tissue inside the dispensed packets that I purchased from the machine but found out, to my very great surprise when I opened one, that it was not somethnig a female would need, that is, unless they expected to be getting "lucky".!

Quelle surprise was hardly my reaction!!! Oh dear. Did I learn to read German in a hurry.

French and German Loos range from the downright disgusting to the hilarious.

Last time I was in France I was walking with my son when we bumped into one of his friends who insisted on taking us back home for a few glasses of wine.

His "Gents" was mounted on a post slap in the middle of his garden.

I've always been curious--all that yelling in recruits' ears. Did this cause any hearing impairment then or even later? I see this yelling in all the films of service life. If those rock concerts are causing kids to have impaired hearing later on (as studies have shown), all that yelling in young mens' ears has got to be bad for you. Think so?

Howzat

I am trying to think that far back to have a first! <smile>

I had worked with computers since they occupied large buildings and had cards that you were not to fold, mutilate or spindle, (remember spindle?).

But in the summer of 2001 I purchased my first home computer and a week later had a telephone line put in my spare bedroom and I was off to the Internet. I had a lot of little toys and games and a whole retirement to spend in my big comfortable chair next to my nice computer desk and fancy new equipment! By my very first view I was mesmerized!

It wasn't long before those toys and games were boring and silly and had long been given away. I discovered chat was not for me and that I preferred discussions and global newspapers. I had problems with my computer. operating system and computer manufacturer and soon ended up getting new equipment and operating system along with cable. My system is now less then one half of what started out.

Then I discovered digital photography and a new obsession was born. Check back with me in about three to five years...

Howzat,

Hearing impairment?

Not really. Like Husbands tuning out wives one was able to selectivly tune out who ever was doing the yelling if one knew it was not important, just someone doing it because he could. If it was important then one listened. Still, you would always hear: "don't you guys listen"

The thing is, if what they were saying had been delivered in an ordinary tone it would have been listened to and what was said, would have penetrated.

The guys who jumped me in that first hour: two probably had just finished basic themselves and one had been in the Air Force for at least two or more years. The first two were yelling becuase they knew that we were new, in an unfamiliar environment and didn't know squat about what was what. The third guy probably had a something worthwile to pass one, but because of the way he delivered it I never was sure what he was yelling about.

BTW, one's hearing got quite good in basic: Our T.I. (Instructor) told us that when he came in to the Bay in the morning and turned on the lights, between the time one heard the click of the switch and the time the lights turned on one had better be standing up, or else. Could hear that click very well.

Tiger Tom

Jissup,

I had somewhat of a different experience the first time I used a public loo in Germany. I was in a Dance place and wanted to use the facilities. So I asked for the Toilet, was pointed to a door. Well as I approached the door a female walked in ahead of me. So, I stopped and then asked somone else where the Toilet was. Again was pointed to the door. As I approached the door again another female walked in a a female walked out. I was, by that time, getting urgent messages from my bladder that I had better find something quick. So, taking courage in hand, I walked in through the door. I found myself in a small room with a door to the left and one to the right and a little lady sitting at a small table, renting out the key to the stalls. I looked at the doors and saw Herren and Damen, took the right one and walked in. Used the facility and walked back out. Looked for a wash basin, found it, washed my hands and discovered that I had to rent a towel from the lady plus leave her a tip for using the Toilet. BTW, the Germans keep their Loos at freezing temperature so to discourage people from dwadling.

The thing that got me in Europe was the Toilet Paper: In England it was like Waxed Paper and tended to skid when used. In Germany it was like Sandpaper and one learned to be gentle when using it.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

I'm having a laughing fit!! Such good posts and I have an idea that this is going to a great discussion. Can't wait to tune in again, already!

TT - I remember that waxed loo paper - it was a step up from cutting squares of newspaper! Back in the 60's German loo paper was so awful we used to buy rolls of soft tissue from the Naafi shop and give them as presents to our German friends who thought they were the height of luxury.

There was one Loo in Cluny (France) which was the traditional hole-in-the floor variety with an automatic flush. Nobody warned me, and the first time I used it I didn't jump out of the way in time and so I tracked out with squelching wet feet to be met with great hilarity by all the Market Traders outside. I later learned to sit outside the nearby cafe and watch for newcomers with wet feet.

Jissup......I laughed about your experience in the loo in France. I had the same experience the first time. We learn fast, eh?<G> And that horrible wax loo paper. Was glad to to see the end of that, and appreciate the lovely soft and perfumed paper. How about the bidet? Interesting experience as well. I found that the best use for the bidet was to boil a jug, pour the hot water in and soak my feet, which were usually aching after a day of tromping around playing tourist.

A first for me. As soon as I landed in Alice Springs after migrating here, I was greeted by a bloke who said 'owyagoinmatearight.' I learned Strine quick smart.<G> Better than looking blankly at the speaker.<G> Forty plus years later, I use many Strine terms, and my Mum, when alive complained that all 4 of us 'mumbled' and used words she didn't understand.

Bobbie

When I think of firsts, I go back to childhood when nearly everything was a first. I remember learning to tie a bow. I had dark green, one piece PJ's with a string which held up the seat and tied around my waist. I had been practicing what my brother showed me the day before, went out proudly to show my folks when they woke up, only to realize I had tied a double knot first before doing the bow, so couldn't get the horrible outfit off without a lot of trouble - after showing off.

I remember the first day of kindergarten. I had eagerly waited to be included with the big kids going to school. I wanted more than anything to learn to read. Talk about disappointment. We didn't have any desks. No books to read. No pencils or tablets with ruled lines. Just blocks, crayons and blank paper, etc. I remember sitting on the floor on a flat pillow, desperately wanting out of the room, needing to relieve myself and much too embarrassed to be the first kid there to raise my hand to ask, shaking in urgency before the teacher finally took us all down the hall at recess. I think I was starting to learn one of life's biggest lessons. For many, many things, the wanting, waiting and planning are ever so much better than the actual experience. Since then, I have learned to enjoy the planning, waiting and wanting stages.

Benjamin--your kindergarten memory jogged my memory.

The only memory I have (so far) of kindergarten was of the class getting little glass bottles of milk (one-half pints) and licking the cream off the little round paper stopper. After drinking our milk we were allowed to go to the door going into the hall and putting our empty bottles into the wire rack which was to the right of the door. I was so happy to be at that spot when a line of children came marching down the hall and I saw my "big brother" in the line.

Strange how little snippets of memories show up every once in a while--

BobbieCee, I also used a bidet to soak my aching feet. My husband laughed at me, thinkin I didn't know what a bidet was. I assured him I knew how a bidet was supposed to be used, but I also knew a good foot soaker when I saw one.

..Babi

Lenalu,

Can't remember fist day of Kintergarten as I didn't go to one.

However, first day of school is still memorable:

About half way through the morning heard a wail from the Red Haired Girl in class. She had wet her Pants, Dress and the seat of the desk. The Teacher had forgot the first order of business on the first day of school: tell the class that if they had to use the toilet to raise their hand and the teacher would excuse them to go to the Bathroom. She had also forgot to show us where tbe Bathroom was located. I guess she had been teaching the first grade for so long and had so many first days that she slipped in the routine. Anyway, had to call the Girl's Mother to bring in a change of everything and the Janitor to clean the seat. Poor girl was so embarassed. Fortunately, the Teacher handled it well.

One other event of that day, it was 1941, and there was an Air Force Base near our town where some RAF pilots were in training. We saw two of them practicing "Dog Fighting" in the sky. Every boy in class was at the windows gawping.

Tiger Tom

Just have to post here... My most exciting first was Saturday, when I rode the London Eye 400+ meters above the ground..

FIRST DAY OF SCHOOL

No Kindergarten for us, either.

The year 1942, as the birthdate was just over the cut-off, therefore, had to wait until the next year to go to school.

Such agony, waiting a whole year, because of 2 weeks. But, no relenting back then.

I wanted to go to school so badly. Not just that I knew there were great things to learn there, but that I would probably get away from my Twin Sister tagging along everywhere I went (bad me). I thought she would get her own "seat"!

Well, first day and seating arrangements began. I was placed in a seat - WITHOUT my Twin!! Oh Heaven! (I thought.) The joy was not to last as, at this point, she sat right down on the floor and started to bawl. Well....dear little old Mrs. Stramberg was so very touched that she gathered my Twin up and plunked her down with me (those double desks) and that was that.

Did I poke my Twin in the ribs?? NOBODY knew. She was already crying, so I thought I'd give something real to cry about.

Oh Dear. That was mean - but true. Regrets now, of course.

I remember my first day of kindergarten. I wore a frilly blouse and my new red kilt with a big safety pin. I was late going in as I had been in the hospital for an eye operation,(the second of seven in my life); and I was also eager to begin learning all the wonderful things I had seen my sister working on.

Well the teacher asked if anyone wanted me to sit with them and no one raised their hands for about forever until one little boy raised his. I was wearing an eye patch in black so everyone at recess would gather around me and sing "ho, ho, ho and a bottle of RUM!!" in high voices and laugh as I cried. Then afterwards we had skipping, which I couldn't do. The teacher worked with me for several moments while the class snickered.

The next day when my mother brought us to school, I snuck out to the playground and spent the morning out there. This playing on the playground went on for a week before someone noticed and my mother was called. She was told I may have been too young for kindergarten as I "didn't play well with others." I wish I could have been mature enough to tell her the real reason. It wasn't for several years that I finally articulated why I hated my first year of school.

How about first ever memories of anything.!

I remember lying in bed and coming to the momentous conclusion that at certain times of the year there were more daylight hours than at others.

I remember sitting in what we call this side of the big pond, the Dickie seat of a car (Where the "boot" is now) and my mother handing me from her seat in the front of the car a box of chocolates. Maybe a model T Ford.

I remember seeing the first non-white persons. My father had been in East Africa during WW1. and had told me about Zulu warriors. Couldn't wait to get home to tell him I had seen two.

I remember reading an encyclopaedia about Haleys Comet, and how the world had fallen to its knees in terror. I worked out that I might with a bit of luck still be alive at it's second re-appearance.What a flop that was.

Damned if I can remember what I did yesterday, or where I put my "specs" down 5 minutes ago...

Bobbiecee - I loved your Strine adventures. Its a funny accent, isn't it? Yes, I too have washed my feet in a bidet. Just the right height!

Tiger Tom - I'm sorry but I seem to be stuck with Loo problems. I remember one of my American cousins asking me for the Bathroom and when I directed her there she re-emerged looking very baffled and asked me in a whisper why we didn't have a toilet? So I directed her to it, wondering why she hadn't asked for what she wanted in the first place. I guess that was one of the first times I realised we really were divided by a common language. Another first was when travelling with another cousin in the States she announced she had to find a Comfort Station. That really had me baffled! Why I wondered, are Yanks so coy about asking for the Loo, or the toilet, or the WC???? Perhaps I've lived too long abroad?

I remember the first Hershey bars after the war. Some salesman friend of my dad's brought my brother and I each a box of 24 milk chocholate bars. I ate the whole box full in under 24 hours - not the best thing for the digestion, but so very good after that long wait. Another first was getting the first BB gun on Queen Anne Hill (Seattle) after the war. Soon several guys had them and started getting into trouble. We dressed in war surplus goggles, helments and football shoulder pads, then had wars between teams. My mother puzzled over the strange rash of little dark spots on my hands and fingers. I don't know if she ever guessed it was from BB bruises.

The first time I remember starting daylight savings time was in the fall of '41 before the war started (I think.) It was still quite warm in the daytime, but when we were walking to school, I suddenly noticed the frost on the ground, so asked my brother why it was colder than it had been the day before. He told me we were going to school an hour earlier because of the war in Europe. I never have quite understood whether or how it works - as far as really making sense and saving energy.

I remember my first time on stage and pleasing a crowd. During the time of cute little kids making their folks rich in the movies, any kid like me who could do anything was encouraged to perform. I took tap dancing lessons at age three and remember doing a pretty mean shuffle. My class did a big Easter show for the parents, etc. I was dressed like a yellow chick or duckling, with a satin covered baseball hat with eyes on it, so I could tip my head down with the hat brim becoming the bill. The class practiced how to line up across the stage at the end of the show - we all knew our places. But when I got to my place, the kids wouldn't let me in line. I had my hands on my hips to make my elbows look like wings, so I bopped one kid over with one wing, and the kid on the other side out of my way with the other wing, then stepped triumphantly into my place. The crowd loved it and clapped and laughed. I learned early on how the unexpected and good timing could get a rise out of folks.

Jissup,

On the Telly, Toilet Paper is called "Bathroom Tissue" and usually is shown a woman patting her face with it.

I guess Americans are so repressed that they don't like to admit they have normal body functions and they cannot refer to them even in an oblique way. Oh, among the "boys" yes, an I guess among the "Girls" too. But not in mixed company. I remember in England on my first visit, the first day. Young Lady said: "I've got to Spend a Penny" I didn't have a clue as to what she was talking about. It took a minute or two to find out.

I still get looks when I ask for the Toilet at a Restaurant or Gas Stations. I have conceded enough to ask for the "Men's"

I can remember when the Loo was referred to in some fairly graphic terms.

Tiger Tom

I am LOL at your shangins. What a trouper. I have no talent at all.

Tiger Tom, I remember England and asking for the bathroom with no toliet and did not understand so was told they are called toliets here. I understood quite Quickly. Duh.

Ginger,

They had a couple names: Biffy, Loo and Toilet.

Depended. I expect that in different parts of tbe British Islands there were other names.

I never heard of a toilet referred to as a Bathroom.

In the Flat that I rented while in London the Toilet and the Bathroom were sepearted by the whole flat, Bathroom was in the front of the Flat and the Toilet was in the Back, way in the back, like on the back stoop in a wooden shed. Guaranteed to wake one in the morning, especially in the Winter. No heat there.

Tiger Tom

BaBi....Like minds....bidet's are perfect for soaking tired feet.<G> I actually prefer that usage to the one they're designed for.

Jissup.....I have no idea why Yanks have to find alternate names for the loo/toilet......perhaps as Tom said.....repression and a denial of bodily functions. In the US the toilet is in the same room as the bathroom so guess they can get away with it.<G> Since the toilet is in a separate room here and in England, they have to ask for the room they want. One American who came over for a cuppa when visiting here, wanted to 'wash my hands' so of course the direction was to the bathroom. Of course, I knew she wanted the loo. I was just being cheeky.<G> Yank toilets are also prettier than ours, but ours work far better. They also tend to flush the toilet before they wee, but it's not a good idea with our loos, eh? Rather like using a bidet, same effect, eh?<G> I much prefer having a separate room for the loo, and a bathroom for a shower, bath, hand and teeth washing.

In re Strine, I use many of the terms as they're common usage in the Territory and Queensland, but I do say G'day rather than G'die.<G> My son, who spent most of his formative years in the outback, still lives in a country town, and works out bush, keeps renewing his Strine. One time when we visited the US and went to a take-away, my daughter asked for 'Chips with sauce, take-away, thanks.' I had to interpret.G> When we visited, my kids were forever saying....Mmmm, so and so used a naughty word...for bum bag, barracking, etc, but the Yanks thought Greg was naughty when he asked for a rubber (eraser). No wonder there's misunderstandings, eh?

Tom......re calling the loo by it's proper name. Put on an English or Aussie accent, then ask for 'the toilet, mate' or 'the loo, mate.'<G> Don't know about you, but I don't use toilet paper on my face <g> but do use the proper tissue on my face. We have some rather graphic terms for the loo as well.....which are used in public. Aussies are much more open about their bodies and bodily functions than Yanks are. When I first came here and went to the beach, I thought all my Christmas's had come at once....none of those loose bathers the Yank men wear.<G>

One first that comes to mind was my one and only sky diving experience. I went just to say I went. I enjoyed it but at that time was in to wind surfing, so decided to get my kicks from that instead. I also went up in a hot air balloon but enjoyed that so much that I still go periodically. Since I enjoy new experiences, most 'firsts' don't stand out for me but are just part of my living life to the fullest. I guess the only other experience that stands out is the first time I went abseiling.....I just hoped I'd attached the rope properly as it was a long way to the bottom of the cliff.<G>

Bobbie

I have been remembering my first permanent. It was about 1937 when I was ten. I was trying to let my hair grow to braid and my mom got upset about it and demanded I get it cut. I said "only if it can be curly." Well I had stick straight hair like my Choctaw forbearers so it would not hold a curl with a curler or iron . A travling Beautician came to Tahoe several times a year and my mom had an appointment for a perm and decided I could have a perm too. I was thrilled and thought I would look like Shirly Temple or my neighbor who had long PollyAnna curls hanging out of silk ribbons. I came out looking frizzy not curly. It was a horrible process with those old fashion electric heated clips hanging down off the machine. The hair was wrapped so tight on the rollers which had a sheepskin with a slit to pull the hair through, under it to keep from burning your head. After it came down they rinsed it and set it with bobby pins all over the head in pin curls then sat under the dryer. I was so Frizzzzzzy you could not put a comb through that hair. The whole week after I fought that frizz and one day I had 50c that I had earned dusting a lady's house, I took it to the barbershop and ask the barber to cut my hair all off like a boy hair cut. He did too. And when my mom came home she screeched...Her main complaint being she had paid Seven Dollers for my Beauty Shop Visit and I ruined it. It was ruined all right but not at the Barber shop. I got a comb through it for the first time in a week or so. I didnt have another until the "machinless" perms came into use. Faith

Live and learn, I am so glad to have lived this long and learning so Much on S/N from the posters. OH what a place this is. I just love it and hope to live a very Long life and keep enjoying all posters on S/N.

Toliets, Loo's and bathroom all meaning much the same thing. Gee and I thought I knew it all. LOL.

BRAIDS, YOU SAY....

FIRST HAIRCUT (GULP)

Well, as kids we did have braids. My Twin being the fortunate one to have very think and luxurious hair and myself with the fine, thin, scrawny braids.

There came a time when I thought it was well past "style" for girls our age, so I asked to have my braids cut of. Got the usual "NO"

Well, that seemed unreasonable to me so, "the stubborn one" took her life in her hands. Or should I say, "took each braid in my hand" at the nape of my neck, and the sewing shears. One swift chop and no more braids! Well, the style appearing after that would have been very "cool" with today's young people.

I might add, there was a well smacked bottom to go along with my new style. Difficult to sit down for awhile...LOL

My mother lost her mother when she was 7 or 8 years old; when I, being the only girl, was growing up, she lavished such hopes on me by doing for me what she had wished for herself. She fixed my hair in little fat sausage curls every day. My big brother, 2 years older, gave me a haircut one day--I sat and let him lift each little curl up and whack it off; I swear I remember the spanking I received. I recovered, but poor Mother never got over it--she had a wonderful way of telling these tales--we kids heard many stories over and over, of course, loving the ones that had us as the heroes or villains!!!

Prancer,

The first spanking (real whacking) I remember I was innocent, totaly. However, the one who administered the spanking sort of liked doing that to kids:

Was playing along side a house, digging for Pirate Treasure. With me was the girl who lived next door (we were about five (5) at the time.) Well in the course of the afternoon the girl said "I have to go potty", "I said go home" she said "I can't wait," I said, "go around the corner" which she did. I continued to dig, she came back and said, "I can't get all the buttons buttoned" (she had a once piece outfit with a trap door in the back) so, being a gentleman, I said, "I do them for you" and I started to do just that. At that time my Aunt came around the other corner of the house and said "You dirty little boy," grabbed me and started spanking hard, I was yelling that I wasn't doing anything and that I was trying to help the girl button her buttons. The little girl had by that time fell back on the time honored defense of females, she was crying at the top of her lungs (don't know why she wasn't being touched.) Well, needless to say my Aunt continued until her arm got tired.

I wasn't able to sit for some time afterward. Got even though, told my Grandmother and she lit into my Aunt (her Daughter)

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

Can't even catch my breath!! That is priceless..poor you. The price of being a gentleman!!!

Females probably have that in-born defence..ohhhh...I can't stop laughing!!

Made my day! Have to go wipe my eyes now..! haaaaaaaaaaaahhha!

Another First,

I may soon have another first:

First time I put my fist through a Computer Monitor out of frustration with the ISP I use.

Tiger Tom

I was thinking about another first this morning. My daughter was born in a military hospital in San Antonio, TX. in December 1972. We had to go twice a day to a small room off the nursery and give our husband's name and serial number to receive our child. Then we had to sit right in that room with everyone else to feed the babies and then back to the window to repeat the maneuver. We were not allowed to take one piece of clothing off of our children.

So of course, the minute she came home, off came each stitch of clothing and I inspected each finger and toe. Before that it was like I was babysitting and had no real link to this fist waving, mouth scrunching little morsel. Then she started kicking her legs and I had a flash of thinking something bad might happen to her feet.

I actually felt a physical jolt as a vast feeling opened up inside me. Love began in that moment and it was unequaled by anything I had felt before or since. A truly fierce feeling, motherhood began that day for me.

Oh, angelface, what a beautiful story. Most of us mothers could probably connect to that.

One of my firsts was when I still two. I distinctly remember trailing around outside, up and down the sidewalk with a doll stroller which had my bear in it. The stroller and the bear had been my mother's when she was little, 20 years earlier. And, that same summer, thinking that I would be helping, I remember lifting two quart bottles of milk from the 'milkbox' on our front porch. I had plans to take them in the house for my mother. And, of course, I couldn't hold onto those slippery glass containers. I remember the milk spilling across the porch, down the steps, over my feet. When I tried to pick up the glass, I managed to cut up the bottoms of my feet and soon found myself sitting on a kitchen stool as my mother and grandmother removed the glass with tweezers. Strong and connnected to that memory was the smell of mercurochome. I can just recall that as if it were yesterday. Now, about yesterday??? Hmmmmmm! NADA!! :<)

Angelface55,

I had a similar feeling the first time I held my Daughter. She was ten days old before I got near her. In Germany Mother and Child stayed in the Hospital for ten days. I could see my Daughter through the Nursery Window but was not allowed to be in the room when she was brought in for feeding.

So when time to bring them home I was at last able to touch my Daughter. Same feeling, a great surge of love and Pride. Also the first time my Daughter looked at me and seemed to recognize me.

Tiger Tom

Military hospitals in the past seemed to be run by odd rules, but you can't discount the advantages. Children are our hope for the future and each one is precious, I'm sure many of us felt like kings and queens on seeing and holding our children...and grandchildren for the first time.

Angelface,

Yup Grandchildren for sure after the children are grown and out of the nest. Nice thing too, is that you can hand them back after a bit.

First time I saw may Grandson he was Beet Red. That was because he and his mother came right home from the Hospital a few hours after he was born.

Tiger Tom

I love all these stories. Everyone seems to have clear memories of those first years and the first days of their children. (yup, what did happen yesterday?). My first airplane ride came when I was about eleven. Outside of Sparks Nevada there was a small private field- my Uncle and his friend had their planes there. The boys got to have rides in the bi-wing with open cockpit. This was a fully acrobatic plane my uncle flew from about 1920 to about 1942 when he was grounded for the duration of the war. I rode in a little piper cub with my sis and I in one belted seat and my Uncle in the other. We flew over the Carson Valley and I think we were only up for about 15 minutes or so but it was an amazing thing for me. The year was 1938 and there were many tremendous new things going on it seemed to me. But that airplane ride was wonderful because it was "in the family" and had lots of bragging value among my friends. Faith

FAITHR... You bring back memories of my first flight. About the same year as yours. I believe they called them " Five Bob Flips". Once round the airfield for 5 shillings. Can't work that out in U.S. money, maybe 40 cents ??? ( I'm sure Tiger Tom will put me right on that.)

My biggest memory of that display was a large canvas screen on the airfield with maybe 10 bottles hanging from strings. A man in an open cockpit biplane made passes across the front of the screen, firing a revolver at each pass at the bottles. He hit at each pass and we marvelled at such markmanship. But he missed the last bottle and a little man with a hammer appeared from behind the screen and broke it.

Had we ever been conned !!!!!!

Monkeyhouse,

Been years since I was in Great Britain.

When I was there the currency was still Pounds, shillings and Pence. A pound was worth $2.80 in U.S. cash. It took me about a week to get used to the British Currency. One thing that helped was to stop trying to convert it into Dollars and start thinking purely in British Currency.

Getting used to the Slang: Bob, Tanner, Tupence, Thrupence, Half Crown, Guinea, I guess there were a couple others but I forget them now. Larget bills I dealt with were Ten pound Notes. Usually, it was Pound and Five Pound notes. I was not a rich American by any means.

Right now, I would have no idea what five Bob would be in Dollars back then.

BTW, there were some in the Embassy who NEVER could figure out the British Currency. No matter how many times I would explain it: 12 pence to a shilling; 20 shillings to a pound. That part they could absorb, it was the coins which threw them. That and when the saw a price on an item: 12/6, completely knocked them off the rails.

Tiger Tom

It is supposed to be simplified now since metrication. 100 pence to the £1.We "Oldies" are just getting the hang of that when they are trying to make up their minds about joining the Euro which will mean yet another change. I believe at the moment the Euro and the Dollar are vaguely around the same value at 1.6 to the £1.

Maybe we should have a "Worldo". Life would be simpler for all of us.

Monkeyhouse,

I believe that at least the Euro is in Metric denominations although with different bills and coins.

You know, once one got used to the old Pounds/Shillings/Pence it was as good as any around. Certainly had more character. I loved those old Pennies. Like the U.S. Half Dollar, would make your trousers hang down to your ankles.

I wonder, if one had to "Spend a Penny" how much it would cost one today.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom & Monkeyhouse

In Canada here, we now that the Toonie and Loonie, which are not unlike the 50-cent pieces (or Half-Dollar) and they are every bit as cumbersome.

I remember kids joking about Half-Dollars. If someone would cough, you would hear "Cough it up! It might be a Half-Dollar!" I guess in those days, a half-dollar meant a lot. I still have some Fifty-Cent pieces.

I have a Five Pound coin (in a case) from the Coronation 40th Anniversary, when Princess Elizabeth became the youngest Monarch to succeed to the throne since 1837, when 18 year old Princess Victoria became Queen.

Stories of coins are very interesting.

I know that Germany is on the Euro, but I do not, or have not, paid too much attention to the Euro, but I expect one ought to learn soon.

PRANCER... Over here it is "Cough it up it might be a Gold Watch".

TIGER TOM/PRANCER... Spankings..I had the misfortune to be sent to one of those Brit. Boarding Schools. Thrashings were meted out by Prefects, not Masters. The norm was 6 of the best bent over a bath tub. It was the practice for all to be made to have a "cold" bath every morning. The perfect opportunity to show off your ridges, bruises, and even blood the next day, always with pride.

Out of the 60 or so pupils in my House, I had the honour to be the second most frequently beaten boy. The most frequently beaten boy became my best friend, best man at my wedding, and continued to be so until his untimely death some years ago. He later flew a Spitfire with the RAF.

What were I beaten for ??? Two I remember... 1. Having a banana in my locker.. 2. Spilling a Prefects cocoa when I was a "Fag".

Life with red necked Sergeants after that was a Honeymoon.

Monkeyhouse

Memories....so many that are NOT great as flashbacks, but sometimes, we cannot help it. In the middle of the night, waking from a nightmare, sobbing, re-living things,is one of those times.

You had a terrible time, and for no good reasons. Does that sort of thing still go on?

I can certainly relate. When I mentioned "spankings", I was dressing up the word. I was the "black sheep" and the so-called spankings were at the end of my Father's fists. Never really a reason, except that the bottle had gotten the best of his temper, and I happened to be there. There was no help from any Authorities. I tried to ask and was told "A Father has the right to discipline his family - GO HOME!" It was sink or swim.

Only lesson I came away with, possibly, was to stand my ground and fight back, if necessary, although I do not like that sort of lifestyle.

Monkeyhouse,

I have never believed in corporal punishment for kids in Schools. I have always thought that the English Boarding Schools were Barbaric. That bit about the Cold Bath being good for you crap. It was just a way for the guy running the School to make a little more money by not having to heat water. Probably didn't heat the School either.

Always heard that the English hate children which is why they send their own off to Boarding School at a very early age and don't let them come home until the late teens.

When I was in London, many Debs hated their parents so much they would go out and pick up worst looking, scruffiest, guy they could find, take him home, spend the night with him and then introduce him to Mum and Dad the next day. It was even better if the guy was illiterate too.

Sorry to hear that you got beat so much. I expect that had I been sent to one of those schools I would not have come out alive.

Tiger Tom

TOM......I got a chuckle out of your discussion of pounds/shillings/ pence, etc. I had to learn that when I migrated here. Our monetary system changed to metric dollars 4 years after I arrived here. However, because I toured Britain 4 times after I learned the British system, it stood me in good stead. Part of our slang still incorporates the use of 'not worth tuppance' and 'not worth a bob.' Our dollar system is metric. At present we have 5c, 10c, 20c, 50c, $1, $2, $5, $10, $20, $50, $100. $1 and $2 are coins, the notes are polymer, the size ascends according to worth, and of different colours. In case you're interested, here's a site which shows our notes and coins. The link starts with $5 notes. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~enigman/australia/five_dol.html#5

Bobbie

Bobbicie,

Pretty Bank Notes.

Reading one it mentioned "Flying Doctors" which reminded me of the radio program "Flying Doctor" that I listened to on the British Forces Network, Cologne, Germany.

Tiger Tom

Wow... We take a lot of stick, but that's a new one.

I don't know about Debs hating parents, I never met one.

I am sure beating in Schools is long since outlawed. I have 3 sons and maintaining order is not always easy. I have never beaten one, and they in their turn have never beaten any of my five grandsons. We often have a chuckle together about past misdeeds and my reactions.

It's a bit like dog training. Praise for things well done yields better results than chastisement for things badly done. None of my dogs has ever even worn a collar, always come immediately called, and can be left in the garden all day with the gate open without straying. The only one I can recall that ever strayed was 17 and had lost his mind. ( Am getting a bit that way myself now.)

I do take both boys and dogs by the scruff of the neck and give them a good eye to eye talking to though.

MONKEYHOUSE

Nothing wrong with discipline; done properly and for the right reason. The alternative would be chaos. Fortunately, I did have a balance and good example from the other side of the family. My children and pets were well protected by me, as well as firmly disciplined, but not violently.

Pity the individuals who go through life with the imprint created by violence and never learn the alternatives.

TIGER TOM

I have been through that beautiful Cologne Cathedral and was awestruck! I believe it is somewhere over 750 years old and the artwork in there is something to behold !

One other thing comes to mind, speaking of Germany again.

In Berlin, stopped at a red light at an intersection, I looked out of the window and saw what I thought was a small armoured tank in the next lane. The words "Polizei" were on the vehicle. I was so surprised that I grabbed my camera to take a picture, but my Husband said "DON'T take their picture!" I guess because of the terrorism during the '72 Olympic Games. Not sure on the facts about this. Correct me if you know otherwise.

Another memory tweaked....!

TOM...I think the notes are pretty too....especially the $50 and $100. VBG. Actually, I do like them, the colours as well as the way they depict Australiana. Today is the 75th anniversary of the Flying Doctors. When I lived in Alice, I used to hitch a ride with the Flying Doctors when going out to settlements as part of my work, the only other way out a long bumpy and tiring trip in a 4wd. The FIRST time I went out with them was quite an experience. They fly right over the mountains and in the heat there are lots of air pockets. Then, if they had to bring an Aboriginal back with them, that was interesting as well, as bush aboriginals don't waste water by washing. I was determined I wasn't going to up-chuck, the combination of the smell and bumpiness, so I kept my nose right up near the air. I eventually got used to it, and I did enjoy getting to know the Flying Doctors and Nursing Sisters. They do a wonderful job.

Bobbie

Monkeyhouse

Must compliment you on your interesting bio. Laughed out loud at your self-description: "self-taught computer illiterate".

Did you know James Herriot--When I saw the area you are in:Yorkshire Dales", immediately I thought of him and his wonderful books. i had checked out all the tapes that my local library had of his books, and adored the marvelous voice and accent of the reader ( can't remember his name.

I had the honor and privilege to have a Great Blue Heron drop into my back yard and stay for over an hour, stalking around my pool in which live innumerable goldfish, it took turns sitting motionless, occasionally diving headfirst at the water, never catching anything, the fish were too fast, probably the distance of a foot or so from the edge of the pool down to the water gave the fish adquate warning , had the heron been able to stand in the water, I bet he could have caught one.

What a thrill--it took a couple of days to identify this bird!!

Monkeyhouse,

Sorry for the generalization. Should have said" The English upper crust hate their children. Must because they sure treat them badly.

As prancer says, discipline should be done properly. Discipline means teaching. Unfortuanately, it has become punishment. I think the military is to blame for that. A well disciplined troop used to mean a well trained troop.

Met a couple debs but I guess I was not scruffy enough for them.

Some people are lucky enough to come out of the violence vowing never to be violent to their own children and living up to that vow.

I wasn't subject to physical abuse but a lot of mental abuse. Wonder which is worse.

Tiger Tom

Prancer,

That small armoured car you saw was a Police vehicle. Not sure what the reaction would have been had you shot that photo.

Yes, the Police were edgy during that time.

Tiger Tom

Win,

First time I won something was playing Bingo. It was "Standup Bingo" The caller called out a lot of numbers and my Card had none of them. In the end I was the only one standing. So, caller told me to take anything off the table. I chose a Wrist Watch.

So, first win, for lousy luck. Worst Card in the Hall.

Tiger Tom

Flipping Page,

Tell me that I am not the ONLY one who tries to stop the page flipping, in the book just above this discussion, in different positions.

Tiger Tom

LENALU... Nice to meet you. No, I never met James Herriot. His real name was Alf Wight and his practice was based in the small maket town of Thirsk and covered the N.E. of the Dales. He really loved the area and the small hill farmers in it. He made a fortune from his books, TV, and the films that followed in the 70's,when Taxation here was sky high. But he refused to relocate to a Tax Haven. He died several years ago but I think his son is still involved with the practice.

BLUE HERONS.. We only have Grey Herons here. They are absent at the moment breeding in colonies some miles away. They will re-appear in a month or two and play havoc with the tiddlers and frogs in the beck (stream) below my house. We have a few fish farms in the area (trout and salmon) which have to be netted over as protection from them.

TIGER TOM... Computer Discussions are a dreadful medium for misinterpretation. You must need the patience of JOB to be a discussion leader. You all handle it very well.

We have grey herons in NZ too - they wreak havoc on private fishponds! I have not seen any for quite a while.

Carolyn

KIWI LADY... Hi. Not only do we have Grey Herons in common, but I have a Kiwi sat on top of my TV. It is about 6" high, so presume (and hope) it is a replica. It is very realisticly feathered and visitors usualy make remarks like " Ugh ! How could you".

Left behind by on old friend from Pakuranga, Aukland last time he stayed with us. Not sure if it is a KIWI LADY or a KIWI GENTLEMAN. Are they feathered differently ?

I understand they are very rare now, and restricted to an area where dogs are not allowed.

HERONS and KIWIS, OH, MY!!

Monkeyhouse, Thanks for the information about Mr. 'Erriot!! Grey herons--they are much smaller that the Great Blue Heron-right? One thing that threw me off was that the huge bird I saw looked grey to me and not blue--ha, ha. I estimated the height of visitor as just under 4 feet tall (after it left, I went out and measured the height of a post by which it had stalked. I know all the people I talked to thought I was nuts to be so excited--but who cares--it was an exciting occurence to me. The loud flutter of its giant wings really was startling when it landed.

Kiwi Lady, I have noticed your name--very nice name. I had thought you might be from N.Z. My husband was in Christchurch just prior to the Tarawa campaign and was treated so hospitably by the people there, was invited into several homes for dinner and spent a few days out on a sheep ranch and was treated so nicely, he always had a warm spot in his heart for New Zealand. He named our cat "Kiwi"!!

Kiwis are one of our endangered species now but we have a breeding program in place and I am sure they will never become extinct. We have several bird sanctuaries which have been cleaned of predators and birds like the kiwi are beginning to thrive there.

Lenalu - Your husband would not believe the change here. Now in Auckland we have so many apartment blocks etc! I hate them. Its not our culture to have these ugly tall things! However its still very beautiful and the city still looks very green. Christchurch has also grown a lot and is called the garden city. My son is down there this weekend visiting friends. They flew down last Thursday and will be coming back this week. I have a feeling they are thinking of a lifestyle change and my guess is the Marlborough sounds where the couple they are visiting are setting up a business. I can always sense when something is up!

There is not much difference in the plumage of the male or female kiwi. The female is smaller but you cant really tell which is a male or female from looking at the feathers. They are very cute little birds.

Carolyn

Monkeyhouse

I see you are a Yorkshireman. My DIL Karen is from Yorkshire. They have just come home to NZ after trying it back in Yorkshire for two years. Karen lived here for 10 yrs before going back. When she got back she realised she was homesick for NZ. My grandson Joshua has a real Yorkshire accent! He told me. "You speak funny Granny" I told him that it was he who was the foreignor! Karen will never lose her accent I don't think. I am staying with them tonight and babysitting. Karens parents home is in Spain now but they work in India. They still have strong accents too. Karens extended family are still in Yorkshire.

Graham and Karen lived in Ponty something - I cant remember the name of the place now but someone in here said there was a cake named after the town they lived in. Maybe you know what I am talking about! They had a nice home with a large back garden and the street was tree lined and very pretty.

Carolyn

Monkeyhouse - just rang karen it was Pontefract where they had their home in Yorkshire.

Carolyn

Pontefract Cakes... Liquorice sweets pressed into little flat pancakes the size of a penny. Just fine providing you don't eat too many !!!!

Accents.. They are great fun aren't they. I hope modern communications don't eventually mean they will die out. I am very hard of hearing but I can identify 3 and possibly 4 Regional Yorkshire accents. Probably about a dozen other Regional UK accents too. Do other countries have wide variations you can recognise ?

But I am hopeless at sorting out US, NZ, Oz, Canadian, and S. Africans one from t'other. I walked into my local computer store recently and asked the owner what part of Australia he came from. His reply " South Africa." The one I do recognise is what I call the American Deep South accent. You know, the "Y'all" drawl. Probably I watched J.R. and Dynasty too often.

The worst accent over here is in Glasgow. No way can I understand them. Might just as well be talking to someone from Outer Mongolia. The nicest is the Welsh accent. They positively sing to you.

monkeyhouse - most of the regional accents in the US are gone - due to television. And we miss them, too. I did get a laugh out of your comment about not being able to distinguish between US, Oz, NZ, Canada, and South African. When John and I were in NZ, we couldn't distinguish between NZ and Oz. And I do think most of the Canadians and US sound pretty much alike (even to my southern ears). But most of the UK, Ireland, Scotland are different from those and from each other. We met Margret Wallbeck from South Africa last month, and her lovely accent sounded Brit to me. I guess it's all in what your ear is tuned to hearing.

Years ago, a guest from Venezuela had us in gales of laughter "doing" the accents (in Spanish) from various Caribbean, Central American and South American countries. Even without understanding a word of what he was saying, the differences in the accents were obvious.

Isn't a shame we can't enjoy and learn from our differences instead of fighting over them?

Mary, I hear considerable differences in regional accents in the US. ie Peter Jensen vs Carol Wilson vs GWB vs southerners. I can tell Canadians from Americans but most Aussies can't. However, we can all tell the Kiwi accent, eh Carolyn.<G> And the Kiwis can tell the difference between our outback and northern Oz accents and southern city accents. I can even tell who was raised in Sydney, different accent. My son speaks outback, my daughter is more poshy. The regional accents in Britain are, however, the most distinct. I've finally learned who's from where depending on their accent.

Bobbie

So enjoyed the conversations I found this morning between Kiwi Lady, Monkeyhouse, Mary Z.-I have no idea who to blame this accent of mine on--Mother had a Mississippi accent that was something even we kids could tease about-- I was born in Tennessee, had a grandma from Arkansas (we still quote some of her pithy remarks), anyway, I do have a drawl, and as I told someone recently--people finish my sentences for me, I speak so slowly sometines. i claim Texas as my home state, since I spent most of my growing-up years in Texas.

So many people in this area speak Spanish as their primary lsnguage, and I am making a conscious effort to speak in Spanish to any who "No tiene Ingles". I have said some pretty dumb things, but enjoy the communication!!

Kiwi Lady, I think I made an error in saying Reuben (my husband) was in New Zealand prior to Tarawa landing..It must have been before the Saipan campaign, because his best friend married a girl from Christchurch; the friend was then killed on Saipan at same time Reuben was wounded.

Tiger Tom--Apologies-guess i strayed from Curious Minds-Personal Firsts--

Tiger Tom - more apologies - but one more reply in this thread to Lenalu - I was born in St. Louis (a particularly harsh accent), grew up in Houston (my parents were from upper east Texas), moved to TN in my mid-20s, and have been here ever since. So what is my accent??? Who knows? Mostly southern, I guess.

Accents, Quickly

I could have been wrong, but because I didn't want my toddlers picking up broken English, as they learned to talk, and then going to school, maybe be teased, but most certainly having to learn proper English, I'm afraid I hammered at my Husband's every word and syllabelle until he could speak perfect English. He had a very pronounced German accent. I'm not against accents; actually like them, but in this case, I thought it was necessary.

To this day, there has never been one person who can detect that he wasn't born right here.

Nagging wife??

Prancer - Does Johan have a Canadian accent???? I can usually just distinguish between Canadian and American.

I recognise Oz and Kiwi, and South African accents, and can usually distinguish most of the British ones. Mine in a mixture of Midlands and South - but if I go back to Worcestershire I soon lapse back into the accent of my childhood. Don't forget, until the age of 5-6 I had a Welsh accent. Was known as Little Taffy at Infants School.

Dude - I can only agree with you about the Glaswegian accent. Can't understand a word. But I think for sheer ugliness the Brummy whine takes some beating. I love the Devon burr, and even the strange accent of Norfolk, which no-one seems to get right unless they have lived there. it will be a sad day if local accents are no more.

Back to Firsts - Does anyone remember their first kiss? I can. I was escorted home by one of my classmates. We walked along, wheeling our bicycles, and chatting. Just as he left me he leant forward to give me a farewell peck . Our bikes got in the way, and it was most awkward and embarrassing. I scooted home blushing all over and sure my sister would know what had happened. Wow!

Jissup....I find the Glaswegian accent incomprehensible as well, but love, and can understand the Edinborough accent. I love all the different accents, in your country, downunder and in the US, except for the Carol Wilson accent which I find quite grating. I hope they never disappear.

Bobbie

JISSUP... Do you notice how Tiger Tom has gone silent ? This of course is what he has been hoping the conversation would get around to.

Not going to oblige you T.T. except to agree with Jissup those words "Awkward and Embarrasing"

We had a long running West End play called " No sex please, we're British". Guess we are all a bit repressed over here, (Except Jissup of course.)

I remember the first time we saw a live professional theater production - it was a road show of South Pacific in Houston, TX, around 1960. It was an absolutely magical experience for us - and we've loved live theater ever since. We'd seen amateur productions, of course, and even performed in college musical reviews, but this was a REAL BROADWAY SHOW.

Lots of interesting and entertaining posts here, but until Jissup and Mary Z's last posts, I thought "Personal Firsts" had disappeared entirely. ...Babi

Monkeyhouse,

Actually no, I was hoping that someone would tell us about the first time they wrestled an Alligator. Or one of the gals telling us about the first time they got caught wearing makeup before they were allowed to.

I remember a young female Cousin who was going to a afternoon "Prom" in her junior High School. She was thirteen at the time. She had been Babysitting and had her own money. She bought a pair of shoes to wear to the Prom. They had very slight heels, could hardly notice them (if your were male.) I have never seen such a scene. My Aunt(s) were aghast. You would have thought the girl had said her lifes ambition was to be a street walker. My Aunt absolutely forbade her to wear them. Other Aunts who were present agreed. Girl was crying. Me, I asked: What is wrong with them. Caught the very devil for that and was infomred that being male I should keep my mouth shut as I didn't understand. I STILL don't understand what they were upset about. Any of you ladies know?

Tiger Tom

I don't, Tom, it will be interesting to see what everybody else thinks!

I really like the wonderful memories here and I like the article in the heading, too, especially these lines:

Claiming our personal power means thinking of and practicing and believing in the possibilities! It's time to define ourselves and our lives in brand new ways, pregnant with possibilities, ways that bring us hints of how to become a "famous first."

and...When we place our attention and the energy we contribute to the process will open automatic doors of possibilities.

Last year when I realized I was going to turn 60, I decided to see 59 off with a bang and to attempt 60 new things, or "firsts," to try for that year before my birthday came? I wouldn't give anything for that experience. Some of the things were funny and some were silly and some were VERY small and insignifigant to everybody else but which really meant a lot to me and it meant a lot to look back over the list, too, the day before my birthday. For instance, I did something I had always wanted to do but never had the opportunity: take cello lessons. And I did. And I am and I love it. I'm not good, and never will be, but it IS everything I thought it would be.

I learned to bake bread, which I had never done, and never realized how complicated it is and how fun. I even entered the State Fair with it, (and lost). But that was another first: to enter for bread. (The one that won, cut in half, looked like a white fountain in black bread, it deserved to win!) I rode the night train, sleeper car from Paris to Rome which I had never done and a lot of much less tiny goals that I really felt good about. In fact, I think, here the year 2003 is almost half over already, and I haven't done one new thing, I think I need to make a list again.

Your firsts at any age are something you never forget, we in the Books are a FIRST here on SeniorNet too, we were the First Book Club on the internet open to every person, do you all know that? In September of 1996 we read our first book together, Snow Falling on Cedars, now LOOK at us in 2003! We've had 18 Firsts or innovations in the Books alone, just in 2003, and the very best thing of all is the oppportunity to meet you all and to hear your fantastic stories which are wonderfully, marvelously unique! Heck this topic is a FIRST! It's fun to consider the possiblities.

ginny

Ginny - what a great idea to celebrate firsts by setting them as a goal. What fun. I need to mull this one over and set a goal for myself.

Thanks, Kathy

I agree Kathy, Ginny is a special lady.

I can understand all of the British dialects. Immersed in dialects from extended family. Have no trouble with TV viewing either. The only thing that foxes me is Cockney Rhyming slang.

About immersion, SILs uncle went to Germany at age 26 and never came back-is 65 now and cannot speak English any more. He phoned here one day looking for Nicky and Ian and I could not understand a word he was saying except Uncle Jim! Shows how one can be totally immersed if one trys hard enough. We say he is more German than the Germans!

Carolyn

I love the idea of starting to do some "firsts" at my age of 76. I also am delighted that I was in the first INTERNET book club...wheee that is one I am delighted to add to my list. As to my first kiss, I remember it very well as it was comical. It was my eight grade graduation after which the high school held a dance to honor us. Of course none of us came to this dance with dates. When it was over at Eleven (school rule) a friend named Don ask if he could walk me home. As he had been brave enough to dance with me all evening though he was a full head shorter at the same age I told him of course he could. He was staying in Town with a boy who lived two doors away from us. When we got to my house after strolling down the wooden board walk from school to down town (only about 4 blocks in our little tiny town.)our hands were all stuck together and sweaty. I had a little purse on a chain and it had a hanky and a chapstick in it. I used the hanky and then gave it to Don to dry his hand. He tucked it back into my purse then ask me if he could kiss me good night. Now this was very awkward so I finally said OK and the I took him by the shoulders and backed him up toward the big pine tree with protruding roots by our house. When he was higher than I was I reached up and tried to kiss him and he fell off the pine tree root right on his bottom. We both started giggling and then we sat there a minute and he said,"maybe it would be a good idea to wait till I grow an inch or two." I leaned over and said,"No don't wait." And we kissed right then awkwardly to be sure but it was nice and then I ran to my door and said "See ya" and ran inside. Who could forget a sweet boy like that. Faith

Nice to see you here Ginny! If you still want info about Grasmere, Monkeyhouse is the one to ask. He knows it from his youth. Bet he had a few firsts around that area. There Dude - now I've dropped you in it!!! LOL.

Kiwi Lady - Cockney rhyming slang has everyone foxed. That's the whole idea of it. How about Scouse? Do you ever watch Brookside? It is the most peculiar accent, but all the Liverpudlian's I've met have always been warmhearted lovely people. Personally I love to hear the Geordie accent. I have a niece-in-law who always calls me Bonnie Lass, and I love it.

The Liverpuddlian accent is delightful I think! I have seen Brookside but have not really followed it. I am not really into the soap type TV programs although I occasionally watch Coro St. Its very popular here.

My little grandson was born in NZ but after living in Yorkshire and going to a private kindy there he is really broad. Yesterday he said to me "I am a kiwi but I talk like a Pom.". His brother was born in Yorkshire - he is 17mths now. Josh says "Dad and me are kiwis and Liam and Mum are Poms!" He says "Coom here Granny" Some people cannot understand what he is saying and he gets frustrated at times. I tell him to talk slowly and people will understand better.

Carolyn

TOM, way back when I think the idea was that a girl was a child until she turned 16. Heels, any kind of heels, were for women. Personally I think the aunts could have been more relaxed about the whole thing, but it was a different world then.

Ginny, what a marvelous idea. There's no way I could come up with 60 new things to try, but I want to find some. Nothing helps keep one young and alert like stepping out to new things. I did start composing crossword puzzles in the past year, so that's something. Now if I could only persuade Dell to buy them, I'd have a little extra income to spend on new goals!

Faith, I love your story of the first kiss. That young man showed a rare self-confidence and aplomb!

...Babi

Reading about some of your firsts have reminded me of some of my firsts! One of the reasons I go by Patricia now is that I had an old maiden aunt who always asked if I was old enough to drop the nickname for my full name. She came from a time when girls put their hair up at a certain age or marriage and dropped nicknames at adulthood.

I didn't reach that time until I was in my mid forties but I've always appreciated those old customs and wish I could still tell her so. She was an absolute dear. She took me to restaurants and other places as a child to teach me manners and how a young girl and then a woman is to behave. We often went to the symphony and concerts in the park.

When I became a teenager and "all knowing" I tried to beg off on these trips and gradually they stopped. Oh, the stupid, stupid things teenagers do!

Ooh I know, Angelface, don't we all wish so, if I could only turn back the clock myself with what I know now! Thank you for the nice remarks, also.

Well aren't you all kind! Pat selves on the back! Your comments light up the boards!

I like what Faith said about being part of a First and Jissup thanks for the tip about Monkeyface (now there's a name!! hahaha) Monkeyface, how did you get that name, that's surely a first in itself? hahahaha

(Do you know the ruined Abbey across from Wordsworth's grave? It seems to have disappeared from Grasmere? hahaah

BABI, what? What? You write crossword puzzles? You wouldn't try one for our Books would you? Answers based on discussions we've had (you could do those you've been in or Bookfests or look in the Archives for the titles of books, authors, etc?) Anything at all connected with our Books & Lit over the last 7 years? And we could save it and do it on our...gasp gasp.... 7th Anniversary
of the Books and give a nice prize, which is coming up in September?? Would you think about it??

I agree, too, Kathy and I wonder, I got up thinking, " Anderson, you have not done ONE new thing not ONE First this year, wouldn't it be something if you challenged yourself before this very discussion were over, to do ONE new "First" ?

I think it might!

You know it's funny I don't remember my first kiss, my first date, nothing like that. I wonder why!?! I wonder if what DOES stick out in our minds does for a reason and I wonder what that says about us each as a person?

I'm trying to think of my FIRST memory at all, what it was of.

ginny

Well my very first memory is of our yard at Lake Tahoe and my house was green and I remember the steps up to the front door and porch.I fell off that porch at 15 months and broke an arm but that I don't remember. I do remember at age three my sister Rae being born. The Dr. coming. We had to stay in the yard with my Grandfather.

It is all in flash-back pictures of the place and people and not like a story memory. But as we grow we begin making stories of our memories and I think for me the humorous and/or odd are what I will remember forever. Especially funny things seem to stick in my mind more than sad or scary things. When I smell certain smells too it brings back memories. If I walk into a coat room at a school I can smell lunch's and chalk and wet cloth and little kids. Each smell brings back another smell memory and then I can remember my own school room and people in it.

One time I opened a box of apples I had brought home from Apple Hill Ranch and was overwhelmed by the delicious smell ..My mind was flooded with pictures of snow piled high outside and my mom coming back from a shopping trip down the mountain with a box of apples each wrapped in tissue paper and how happy it made we children. It is worth more than anything, that memory. and now I can recall this Apple smell and get pictures in my mind. Isn't that wonderful. Faith

My first memory was of my second birthday party. It consisted of my mother, a neighbor and the neighbor's younger child. It shows how soon the ego starts I believe.

I had yellow icing ducks on the cake my mother had made and I reached over from my high chair to the little boy's and fed him one of the ducks. The neighbor remarked on how cute that was and my mother agreed. That was all it took to have me feeding the little boy all of my ducks and getting more approval, lol.

I really don't remember any other people there at the party. What a telling memory isn't it?

Ginny - You got the name wrong - its MonkeyHouse, or MH - or some of us call him the Dude. Thought I'd better put you straight before that Yorkshire man goes ape. (He's quite goodlooking, really!)

WHOOPS!! hahaha OOPSIE!! Sorry Monkey House!! hahahaha jeepers like that's better. ahahahahah HAHAHAHAHA, Thank you Jissup, now I feel much better. I may be the only person on earth who hates monkeys? Just hates them? Can't bear to go IN a monkey house, can't bear to be near the nasty things and they return the compliment in spades, they hate me, as well, that famous gorilla in Philadelphia? in the Zoo? He's dead now but while alive took one look at me tiptoeing under protest thru the excerable monkey house and THREW HIMSELF AGAINST THE BULLETPROOF GLASS! BLAM! Yes, they hate me, if we ever do turn into Planet of the Apes I'm doomed. Now DO tell me, Monkey House, that you're not a fancier of apes. or whatever hahahahaahHAHAHAH DUDE? The last time I was called DUDE was in Rome by a waiter who thought all Americans were Dudes, Dude. ahahahahah OH dear, let's hope MH has a good sense of humor!

ginny

Ginny,

My first memory was standing in my crib. Bright Sunny day and I could see the dust motes in the Sun Beam coming in to the room. That and trying to stick my hand in the fan. Fortunately, the fan was out of my reach, but I certainly tried.

Tiger Tom

As to how early we can remember - usually scenes more than a continued action, it seems we all have very eary memories, but have trouble retrieving any before we had very many words. So the earlier you remember, the more verbal you probably were. My brother and I, both early talkers, both remember things from around age two. But many perfectly intelligent folks don't remember anything until around kindergarten or even later. They were just later talkers. (All this from a class on memory in college in the '80s as well as talking to other folks.) I have an advantage in knowing how old I was in any given early memory, because we moved a lot. My mother filled in my age from my discription of a house, room or yard where something took place.

Now, if I could always remember to do what I told someone I would do, or find the words I'm looking for when I want to make a smart remark - - -.

There were times I couldn't fall asleep at night so I would try to think back as far as I could. Got to about age three but now I don't really remember what it was. Anyway, the first I would like to talk about was the first 10K that i was in. One year my youngest daughter was in a run and I watched her start and then got on a bus to meet her at the end of it. I was so impressed with all the activity and at my daughters urging, I started running so I could be in AL'S RUN the next year. When I thought I had done enough by the following year, I decided to test myself in a different 10K. My goals were to finish the run, do it under an hour, and not to be last. I met my goals and continued running in several more events that summer and went on to a few more years after that. Enjoyed them all and got a pile of tee shirts.

That's interesting about the earlier verbal skills as it makes sense considering the brain's layout as we are beginning to understand it.

I have another memory from around the same time as the birthday. I was lying in my crib, it was summer because it was warm and it must have been nap time as I was dressed except for shoes. I remember looking out the window from where I lay in my crib and feeling very alone. I could see the curving heavier portion of a large tree branch and wished I could see more from my position.

I have no idea why I wanted to see more unless I was bored or could hear something from outside. I also have no idea why I retained this memory all these years. It is an odd little childhood leftover.

I remember lying in my crib trying to count all the stars in my ceiling wallpaper. I got up well into the hundreds, but this was not because of my extreme genius, but rather our poverty. I was still sleeping in a crib after I started school.

Benjamin,

I am very verbal. Talk too much some say and love to debate, some say argue. However, I was very slow to walk and talk. Didn't do either until I was three. Once I started to talk there was no shutting me up. I guess I tried to make up for lost time.

I do believe that intelligence does have something to do with it. As you, I have a fairly high I. Q.

Tiger Tom

TOM - Not all geniuses talked early. Some seemed to do a lot of observing for the first few years. Seems like the memory retrieval would have more to do with how early a kid USED words in his/her thinking processes, whether they were spoken out loud or not. One young genius who was quite slow was Edison. He was a partially deaf and quite slow to speak - later did poorly in school. Of course, his expression of intelligence later was inventive/mechanical rather than verbal.

But my comment about early memory retrieval was a generalization. If a kid is slow to talk, that doesn't mean he is retarded, but if he is quick to talk it often shows a higher than average intelligence and later on, he will likely be able to retrieve those infant or preschool memories better than the average person.

On some discussions, such as this one, I feel free to kid about intelligence as well as comment about the way the mind works. I find the whole subject extremely fascinating and the quirks quite funny. I think it is safe to assume folks who post on SN, as a group, would test higher than average on a verbal scale, and many talked earlier than usual. If we didn't like to use words, we wouldn't be here. (Of course, having higer verbal IQs is no guarantee we all make sense all the time.)

Touche', Benjamin! Your last sentence sure hit the nail on the head!OUCH! hahahahah. But I will be okay!!!

LENLAU - The crack about not making sense was directed primarily at some of my own twisted posts. If it weren't for the wonderful edit button, you folks would see how many foul balls I hit before I ever get it straight.

I figured that was what you meant!! It struck me as being very funny-honest!!

I can remember being pushed along in my push-chair by my sister. We lived in Wales at that time and there were some very steep hills. Sometimes she would run ahead with me, turn my push-chair around and let it run back down the hill to my Dad. I loved it - used to think I was flying. I would have been about 2-3 years old, but can remember it very clearly.

Just to put your mind at rest Ginny - in case you think you have frightened our MH away with the name mix-up. He is having trouble with getting into SN and keeps losing his messages. He has sent you a reply but lost it. He'll be back later when he's got things sorted. I can tell you he has a great sense of humour. LOL

Okay, so back to personal firsts: This boy and I had walked from school up to the Capitol (Austin). We climbed all the stairs up to the little winding metal staircase which was attached to the ceiling of the rotunda-that led to stairs and steps inside the dome, and we came out onto the little balcony directly under the statue which adorns the top of the building. As we stood looking out on the scene below us, he got enough courage to kiss me and I jerked my head around abruptly toward him (how do you do this, I thought) and our foreheads bumped violently together. I had really liked this boy, and I reckon he liked me too, but after that we avoided each other. I remember his name to this day. Calvin: Where ARE you?

That was one of my most embarassing moments up to that time. I was more traumatized by the awkwardness of the moment than I had been by the long dangerous climb up to the top of the Capitol. I understand that no one is allowed to make the ascent to the top of the dome anymore. Part of the climb is allowed with guided tour, I think--but this may be hearsay.

My first memory, I think, was of running, actually being chased and I thought it would kill me, it was in Philadelphia and we moved to the country when I was 5 but I recall wandering away from home down to the Ice House where they cut ice and loaded it on wagons to haul up to the windows of apartments for ice boxes, and it was a bad neighborhood and this "gang" of boys chased me and I just barely made it to the neighbor's.

That's the memory but looking back, how realistic was it?

How many children under 5 could outrun a gang of boys? I must have had a good head start, like 8 blocks? hahaahah

I also recall riding the subway that young, to visit my grandmother, she would be waiting for me at the station and it was a long way, from Holmesburg to Germantown and I had to memorize the stops, I recall Tigonderoga was one, and yes I could read, my mother, an elementary school teacher saw to it I was reading the newspaper by the first grade.

Those were the days, huh? Can you imagine in this day and time letting a 5 year old ride the subway alone?

Apparently I was a very strong willed child, the "official" first story of me was I marched, all 3 years of me, into the local soda counter and demanded an ice cream with no money. When told I would have to pay for it, I flounced out and declared, WELL! I'll just take my business elsewhere, to great guffaws. I don't remember that incident.

I wonder why I have so few memories of early days?

I do recall that while we did live in Phila in a row house (which is still there) you'd have to go around the block if you came out your front door and wanted to go in the back yard, hard on those who wanted to lawnmower the postage size yards, good for a feeling of being neighbors, tho?

Those of you interested in IQ or intelligent childhoods and what they produce might like to join us in All is Vanity by Christina Schwarz, starting June 1, here is one of her quotes on the precocious child:

I think my point is clear. I was precocious. I was enthusiastic, unswerving, creative. I had imagination. It took me only twenty years to realize that none of this mattered.

An interesting book full of interesting perspectives to argue, join us if you like!

ginny

I was a tomboy, and at one time the only girl on our neighborhood baseball team. I will never, ever forget the very first time I hit a home run! And it was a grand-slam homer! I can't remember anything in life that gave me more pleasure than that day!

Lorrie

Lorrie

Boy - can I EVER relate to being a Tomboy.

First baseball game, first Girls hockey game, first go on Speedskates - first high dive...first water skiing....did it all... Sometimes, nearly broke my neck and have more than one broken bone to my credit!! A lot I can't even remember.

Loved every bit of it. Not only guys who have all the fun!!!LOL

Being precosious mattered then, it matters now. The trouble is, it doesn't just effect the kid's life in positive ways. Grown-ups so often expect so much unrealistic behavior from a kid who can read early, etc. I had a nephew who read well before he started school, but still couldn't sit still at a desk in first grade. He was constantly criticized and disciplined by teachers, but was really just a case of mismatched brain, emotional, and physical development. So many of us grow in mismatched pieces like that. I always think of a little poem from a kid's book:

I think it's very funny the way a puppy grows,

A little on its wiggle tail, a little on its nose,

A little on its tummy, a little on its ears,

I'll guess he'll be a dog alright in half a dozen years.

I remember my first swimming lesson - age six maybe? It was nice and warm in Topeka, Kansas, so the water couldn't have been too cold. All the other kids got in and practiced floating, etc. Every time I went in the water, I started shivering, eventually turning a shade of blue. I was much to tightened up to learn anything, so the instructor had me sitting on the side of the pool. I was just too skinny. I never did learn to swim until I was around 14 and had a little muscle. For several years, I could let out most of my air and lie on the bottom of the pool to torment a life guard. (Now, I have plenty of fat for insulation and have many times floated around in 54* Puget Sound like some old, lazy walrus.)

Prancer, how true! I remember one Christmas when I was bitterly disappointed because Santa brought me a doll instead of the lace-up boots with a pocket on the side for a tiny little pen-knife that I wanted so desperately.

Lorrie

Now all this is bringing back memories for me. One of my earlier memories, about age 4, is of living in a downstairs apartment in a 2-story house. I played on the stairs a lot, as the yard was tiny and on a busy street. I can remember having a small child's broom, and deciding to sweep the stairs. Dilemma! If I faced down, sweeping the stair below me had me bending so far forward I was in danger of tumbling down. If I backed down stairs, sweeping the stair above me, I swept all the dust onto my own feet. I was sure there must be a solution, but apparently only the adults knew what it was.

I also remember a day my Aunt 'Re (Marie) telling me a new baby brother was coming home from the hospital with my mother. I was greatly excited at the prospect and couldn't wait to see him. When they finally arrived and the baby was laid in a crib for my inspection, I was terribly disappointed. Just a tiny, crumpled-looking little object that I obviously wouldn't be able to play with.

My earliest memory was of a time I was still in a crib myself. I've been told I couldn't possibly remember this, but I do. I must have had a cold or croup, because there was something steaming beside my crib, held in by a light cover. I remember knowing my mother was in the next room, and calling (or crying)for her, and her coming to check on me. That's all I remember of that. Odd, that that memory would survive. ..Babi

Memories,

I remmeber an incident that happened when I was about 20. I, my mother and father went to my Brothers house to see his newest addition to the family, a second Daughter. I can remember my Mother ringing the Door Bell and when it was opened saying: "Where is the Baby' and rushing in the door totaly ignoring my Brothers oldest child, his other daughter. My father walked in and he ignored the girl too. Up until that moment she had been the queen of the walk being the only Grandchild. When I walked in I stopped and talked to her. I waited until the others had left the room, where the new baby was, and then I went in and took a look. It is so clear in my memory. Only problem is: I was several hundred miles away at the time in Cheyenne Wyoming.

Tiger Tom

TOM, what a curious story! Did you dream this, or what?

GINNY, I forgot earlier to reply to your suggestion about the crossword puzzle, based on books that have been discussed. I like the idea; I'll give it a try. Then you can help me figure out how to export it to you. I have an 'export' feature, but I've never used it. ..Babi

My first stay in hospital. I can remember the ambulance and the siren as we went over Grafton Bridge. I can remember being in the isolation ward where my mother was only able to look at me through a glass window. I remember a child talking to me from another bed but my mother told me later the child was in a coma and died. The child did talk to me before she died of that I am so sure. I was only 3 so did not know to call a nurse and did not know the child was in a coma and not just sleeping. It was during the polio scare I was hospitalised. They said I did not have polio but they said I had a severe stomach bug but I remember the terrible pains in my back and legs and believe to this day I had a mild dose as I have developed a disease which is very like post polio syndrome in middle age.

Hospital was terrifying and the most terrifying thing was the loneliness- the nurses only came to check vital signs etc and apart from this I was in a silent atmosphere confined in a big cot I could not escape from. I am glad childrens hospitals are different today.

Carolyn

A couple of you have posted early memories of being sick or scared, or both. It is typical to remember scenes from times we were hurt or frightened. Back in our cave man days, we probably survived better if we remembered those painful, scary situations, so kept out of them the next time.

Kiwi,

I remember my first (and only) ride in an Ambulance. I remember commenting to the attendant that the Ambulance wasn't sprung very well. It was bouncing all over the place. I added that a Hearse was generally a Cadillac and very well sprung. A corpse had a better ride than someone in an Ambulance. He agreed. I asked him what if you have to do some delicate work on the way to the Hospital. He shrugged.

Tiger Tom

When I was four I was in the hospital for the first of several eye operations. It was Seattle's Children's Hospital. My parents hadn't told me what was going on as the doctors felt it was better back then. I was taken to a playroom where I saw my first mechanical riding horse. When I looked up, my parents were gone! Then I fell asleep and woke up very nauseous and had a big patch over one eye.

I snuck out of my bed and left the room looking for my parents. A nurse brought me back a few times. The next time I remember being careful to sneak under the nurse's window and I got on the elevator and someone pushed the buttons for me. I was corralled at the first floor and brought back and tied into my bed. My parents came to see me that evening and I was later told it was the first time my mother had seen my father cry.

A week later when I was released, my sister told me about going to a carnival and getting to ride an elephant after seeing a parade. Later that day I went into the motel room to use the bathroom and found out I had gone into someone's else's motel room. Of course my sister thought this was hysterical!

The upshot of all this is that at 22 years of age and four months pregnant, I rode an elephant at a circus and finally felt vindicated! I always was an odd little one.

Gee, several of us have early hospital memories.

I must have been about four, my father had just died, and I needed to have my tonsils out. It was a lot of trauma for my Mom to be going through and she was probably more worried about me than she normally would have been.

In any case, she went to a nearby music shop and chose a very nice little music box for me, complete in a nice wooden case. When she told the clerk who it was for (me), the clerk almost refused to sell it to her, saying I was much too young and wouldn't take proper care of it. Mom insisted and brought it to me in the hospital. Of course, I loved it.

Wouldn't you just know - the nurse came in to straighten my bed, lifted the blanket up with a swoop, and off flew my music box to the floor, the box gouged and a few teeth from the comb broken.

When Mom took it back to the music shop for repair, they wouldn't believe what really happened and refused to fix it. So, I treasured it all through the years just as it was. Still do. Maybe someday I'll have it fixed.

I also remember about that hospital how when it got dark outside and the parents went home, many of the children cried and cried all through the night. Also, there was a little girl in the bed next to mine and we were separated by a big glass window. For whatever reason, she used to fling her little purse at the window, thumping it and thumping it. But I do remember also the ginger ale and thinking it was quite a treat.

Many years later I worked for a few years doing social work in a hospital and I remember being so glad that it was now encouraged that parents spend the night with small children.

BABI!! How exciting!
How fabulous, THANK YOU so much!! I think the idea of our own SeniorNet Books & Literature Crossword Puzzle for our 7th Anniversary in 2003 is fantastic!!

What an amazing thing. That's our 19th new innovation in the Books in 2003 already, amd yet another inspiration coming out of Curious Minds, many congratulations and thank you to all you inspiring people!

Yesterday was a day of many firsts for me, too, and all of them enjoyable, love this topic!

ginny

All,

I forgot to compliment Ginny for the wonderful header for this discussion. It was her creation. she found the great "first Kiss" graphic too.

I am constantly amazed that so much talent is in one person.

With all that Ginny is involved in she still found the time to come to the aid of a real "Fumble Fingers."

Thanks so much, ginny.

Tiger Tom

Ginny, you're welcome, but don't get too carried away. There are only so many 'theme' words you can fit into a crossword and still make it work. I think I can work in enough from Book discussions to make it interesting. ..Babi

Babi - my hat is off to you. Some time ago I had a little crossword puzzle-making bit of software and I thought I'd give it a try. At the time I was doing puzzles regularly and fancied myself pretty good so figured that it would be a cinch to just create them. HA! No cinch at all. I gave up but will never forget how very tricky a craft it is. How did you ever learn to do that?

Diane, I've been working word puzzles all my life, so making them seemed like something I should be able to do. I bought a crossword software kit, but did not find it at all useful in composing adult puzzles. All I use if for now is to give me blank puzzle diagrams to work with, and then to print out completed puzzles when I'm done.

If you want to try again, try starting with one of the longer words, and working out from there. It's much harder to fit an 8- or 9- letter word into a space that already has letters in place. ...Babi

If we are still talking about "firsts" I remember the first ride i had on a trolley. It had sort of like bamboo seats, that made marks on my legs after sitting on them, and when we got to the end of the ine, everyone would pull the handle on the top of the seat forward so that we would all now be facing another direction, which really fascinated me at the time.

Lorrie

First Rides

My first experience with the Montreal bus and Streetcar system was memorable.

There was myself, my twin and older sister and we were standing at the bus stop which would eventually take us to Atwater Square, where we would transfer to the Streetcar.

Our older sister gave us a warning that if all of us could not get on, then don't anyone. It was always very crowded and one was fortunate to squeeze inside the door and stand on the step.

Well, the bus pulled in, and the door opened, with of course only enough space for one person, and up stepped my twin. The two of us left standing, just looked at one another, as we knew she had no idea where she was going.

The most humorous part of it was that, just before the door closed (with her felt skirt and crinoline sticking out) she turned around and looked at us with a very pleased look on her face and said, "Mind the door! Gardez la porte!?" and away she went.

We were weak with laughter, but had to decide what to do. We returned home to wait for the inevitable phone call. Sure enough, sooner or later, it was she telling us that all she knew was that the place she got off said "Bus Barns" but she had seen a lot of things more than once. Did the whole bus route over and over without getting off.

Panic that day! My older sister had to take a taxi and go find her.

Lots of other mispahs trying to learn the ropes of "the big City"!

I am reading these accounts of first experiences. It is hard to pick one from among many, but I am remembering the first TV set I bought. At that time TV programs didn't begin until around 4 P.M. Until that time of day only "test pattern" was on. I saw a set advertised for $50.00. The only transportation I had was the bus and I did have $50.00. I went to the store that had this very large set and bought it but I did manage to get it home.

Since I visited "Curious Minds" so I went back to where I last read about Faith's violin lessons, et al, and started catching up with my reading. Well over an hour later, I had read them all, a first for me, and I have to tell you people, you have kept my interest alive in every posting. I really enjoyed Tiger Tom's story about his first day in the Air Force and revisited my own experience right with him. It is strange how the military equates noise and expletives with discipline. Then when the disussion turned to "loos", that was really amusing. Reminded me of a museum we toured in York, England. If I recall the local myth correctly, a local Doctor with a penchant for collecting relics managed to collect all sorts of things from his patients in lieu (the other kind) of payment so that after his death, his collection was placed in a building, a former womens' prison, there for the world to see. One thing that stands out in my memory was his collection of chamber pots, some rather plain and others quite ornate. One had a green frog forever fixed in the bottom of the pot, no doubt to startle its uninitiated user! Another rather elaborate pot had a message written on its rim that read "hand it over to me dearie!" The Brits do have a sense of humor! Finally, a comment about accents that so many of you discussed. A few nights ago our local public TV ran an "Inspector Morse" rerun and it was quite good. But although I had no problem understanding "Morse", I think I could only pick out about half of the cockney accent of Sargeant Lewis. But that "half" was good enough to want to see another show. British actors are so very, very good! Thats all, just a comment! losalbern

Loselbern so glad to see you here.You didn't tell us about your first kiss...hahahaha.

I read Louise's post with interest as I too remember fondly my firs TV which wasn't until 1952 and it was a large floor model Packard-Bell. We had a very high antenna put up in the back yard (looked like a power line with four legs)and still could not get any reception until late evening. Then we could get some San Francisco transmissions and we had one local station that was pretty clear. Within a year we had three local stations transmitting. We still had terrible reception right up to the 1960's when they began transmitting with more high power. We did lag behind lots of places. My two oldest never formed a TV habit and seldom watched unless it was a very favorite program such as Bonanza or Wagon Train. We did watch Lucy sometimes. I didn't care whether I had a TV or not until I retired and then it became my companion as I live alone. Faith

Losalbern,

What was your first day in the Military Like?

Any good "first" stories you want to tell us?

Tiger Tom

Ok Tom, I don't know if I can spell out the dreadfulness of my first day in the Army since part of that time found me in a mental fog not truly believing the surreal surroundings I found myself a part of. However I can tell a little of the few times during that first week when the fog lifted temporarily in order to record a bad memory. I was to report to Union Station at 7AM one bright November morning and about thirty totally subdued men my age (19) were herded into day coaches without any idea of our destination. Because our nation was suffering an extreme shortage of railway equipment, many of the cars used by the military were quite old. The coach I was in, I swear, must have come directly from the Union Pacific museum! It was of the 1860 variety, all dolled up in brand new elaborate velvet brocade, tassels and all, and complete with built in spittoons. This was not a stable environmental influence for me, almost as though I were having a very bad dream. After two or three guys with chevrons and clipboards called the roll and sounded disappointed that we were there, the train moved forward toward Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Having arrived there and assigned to more guys with chevrons and clipboards we were marched (and I use that term loosely) to a building and handed a "barracks bag" from whence we slowly walked past a long counter where other soldiers threw pieces of G.I. clothing at us and which we continuously stuffed into our barracks bag. This was all done with military precision and all with the assumption that everything would fit each of us perfectly. One of my Olive Drab wool pants look exactly like it had former been a G.I. blanket. It was better at this stage to resort to my mental fog. It somehow cut out the strident voices of the guys with the chevrons and clipboards who insisted on telling us over and over to shape up. "You're In The Army Now!!!" I spent the most of my time in the next two days wondering how the hell I could get out of this predicament. Then, we recruits took all the required I.Q. and placement exams. This was the only thing encountered to date that made sense and for I while I felt relieved. Not that it counted for anything! The next I was interviewed by a non-com who only had two stripes and didn't need a clipboard since he was seated at a desk. He asked some unimportant questions but then wound up with this corker, to wit, "would I mind being placed in the Army Air Force?" My response sealed my fate when I chortled, "Oh I would Like that!" And he banged his stamp down on the interview sheet so that my destination was determined for the next three plus years. The following day I was sent to the 389th Infantry Division. It took me a long time to forgive that blasted Corporal who was the first of many non-coms to deceive me and many others in ensuing years. When our Company Commander visited his newly assigned recruits the next morning and briefly interviewed each of about eight of us, when he came to me, he turned to his First Sergeant and intoned, "looks like the draft boards have reached the bottom of the barrel". If he could have read my mind, I would have been court martialed on the spot! That was my first week in the Army! The next week wasn't much better because I spent it on KP in Officer's Mess. Is there more to this story? Oh Yea. Three more years of "Me against the Army!" As one of my first retirement projects, I wrote a book about my Army experiences and shared it with some of my Army buddies. It was fun to recall. A lot more fun than it was when it actually happened. losalbern

Loselbern how wonderful that you wrote a book of your experiences. I bet your Buddies enjoyed that very much. I find that when I write a story about something our family has experienced it is a lot funnier and more entertaining to the kids to remember than it was while it was happening.

We were laughing really hard at my story about being stuck in the middle of Death Valley back in "51 or so, with a sedan and a trailer in the sand and we could not get out. It was hot at 6 am and miles from any phones or anything else. My little boy was about 5 and he came running over a sand hill that was covered with willows. This place was sort of an oasis which is why we camped here, water.

Well Ricky came up to his sweating swearing father and said.."Why dont you get that tow truck to pull us our."

Daddy went ballistic and said "If you can get a tow truck lets see you do it big shot!"

My son took off and in 15 minutes he drove up in the passanger seat of a tow truck with a Placerville CA address on the side of it. My husband was fit to be tied..he actually laid down in the sand and laughed he was so astonished. We all were. This fellow had been driving home from Barstow and stopped to sleep here and we said he was an angel. He pulled us out to the highway. We exchanged addresses and continued our vacation in Death Valley.Faith

Losalbern,

You must have been in the army in WW II.

I will bet you had a lot of things happen to you that were not funny at the time but might be now after many years have gone by.

I was in the Air Force some time after WW II.

Unfortunately, no one seemed to have told the Air Force that WW II was over. We were not allowed to buy a newspaper or have a radio or any magazines. Now in WW II those were prohibited because in the early years of the war things were going so badly that the Military did not want Morale to go down because of the bad news. So, the men in Basic were not allowed any access to news except rumors.

I did acquire a few new terms for my vocabulary. None of them for mixed company.

Tiger Tom

All,

You have one more day if you intend to post to this discussion.

As I have said elsewhere, I am disappointed. I thought the subject would get a better response than it has.

Thanks, though, to you who have posted.

Tiger Tom

Tom, you guessed correctly. My war was WWII. And it is true that we young recruits heard new barracks language that was about as raunchy as it could get. Our First Sargeant blistered us with his salty stuff at every opportunity. Worse than that before too long, we recruits were adding it to our vocabulary. When I was discharged, I really had to guard my tongue in order to get the barracks language out of my normal conversation. On my first date as a new civilian, I was tongue tied for fear of an offending outburst. Ill at ease that whole evening, but this darling girl didn't seem to mind my lack of conversation. Nowadays we converse much more easily. Yup, we were married the following year.. Oh, Fern, I have no memory of the first girl I kissed but I still enjoy kissing the darling girl! losalbern

Most Important First

TIGER TOM:

I have enjoyed this discussion and want to thank you for all the work you have put into it.

I got to thinking about a last post and decided "most important".

When I think back over the years, either happy or sad, I come to the time when my Firstborn and I looked at one another.

After a thankful prayer that everything was alright, I promised the baby (and any born after her) that she would not go through life unloved or unprotected, if I could help it.

Another small prayer for the grace and the time to be allowed to do that, and I felt I'd accomplished my life's REAL work.

Thankfully, I have been able to do that and carry it over onto 7 Grandchildren. Who knows, maybe Greats!! I surely hope to.

Losalberm,

Two examples of Bad Language that I heard in the Air Force were so bad that I had no problem about saying them in Civilian life. STILL can't say them. One was so offensive that I hated to hear it. Before entering in to the Air Force had NEVER heard the term before and around the people I knew most locker room language was known. The other was more or less a Military Term: "Pull you Head out of your Behind" Of course another word was used instead of behind. First time I heard it I laughed out loud. Got my usual chewing out for laughing. Told I was not taking things seriously. It was just that I had a good, quick, imagination and I could visualize the act.

Tiger Tom

Back in 2001 I lost my beloved partner. During the many sleepless lonely nights that followed his death I heard on BBC World Service a mention of Seniornet, so the next day I thought I would give it a look. It was one way to fill in the long lonely day.

My first Posting was in the Grief folder, and I got a reply almost immediately from a dear lady who seemed to understand exactly how I was feeling. We e-mailed each other and formed a friendship that was from the start a great help and support to both of us. We have shared jokes and dreams and our many sadnesses and anxieties, and have helped each other overcome that first initial overwhelming grief. Our friendship has grown in depth and warmth and understanding and will continue. (As she posts here she will know who I refer to.) I've since made many other cyber friends, and can only bless that first effort I made in posting on SN.

To all my SN Friends I would like to say a big thank you!

This has been a very good discussion and all interesting posts at least to me. I have had a good time posting in here since the beginning of these discussions for The Curious MInd began. Thanks to you folks who make it possible. Faith

All,

Sorry kids, I get mixed up on the days since I have been retired. Don't even wear a watch anymore. I was wrong, today is only Friday, so we have today and Saturday to go.

Tiger Tom

Jissup:

That was a very touching post (#1063). I am so glad you have found SeniorNet all the way from England, and am also glad that you have made so many friends, one especially. As our friends "down under" would say, "Good on you!"

Lorrie

Tom, you're doing great! Whatever makes you think otherwise? If we are still talking about "firsts", yes I can remember my first kiss, and it was ghastly! We were playing spin the bottle and I landed with a neighbor boy who was wearing braces the same as I, and somewhow we got them entangled. Of course everyone else roared with laughter but I was so horribly embarrassed, and so was that poor boy I was hooked up to. Can't even remember his name!

Lorrie

My kind of guy! I see similarities here and there.. Like you, I no longer wear a watch. I removed mine the day I retired, Febr. 1, 1981, and have yet to miss it after a career totally tied to a time frame of schedules and meetings and due dates. I love my life as a retiree. I think of it as my third life. Never a dull moment. Always something good to look forward to. TIGER, you did a good job with this interesting topic. FAITHR, I realized after signing off my last post that I referred to you as "Fern". Sorry 'bout that. Just another Senior Moment. JISSUP, A very endearing post about finding SENIORNET. losalbern

Losalbern,

Loke you I was tied to the Clock and Calendar.

In a way it was all right as I knew what I was going to do at what time on what day, for the most part.

One thing I hated above all was Meetings. Staff meetings drove me nuts because they were useless. One a month would have been too much but one in the Morning and one in the Evening. That was far too much. Since I was not running things I couldn't stop them but managed to avoid as many as possible.

Boy, you have been retired a long time. I have been retired since 1992. You know, the guy who said that these were the "Golden Years" was either Rich, Young or both. He should be strung up by his Thumbs and Toes. Nothing Golden about being creaky in the joints, having far too many Senior Moments, wheezing up the stairs, Going down stairs and then wondering why you did, Arthritis, Bladder and Blowel Control Problems, Eye Problems, Diabetes, and various and sundry other problems.

Hope all is going well with you.

Tiger Tom

Lorrie,

I will bet that was Embarrasing.

I never wore braces. couldn't afford them.

I am trying to remember my first Kiss and am coming up empty. Must be lost in the mists of time.

Tiger Tom

JISSOP, I can identify with the pain you were feeling the first year after your husband died. I went through that pain 10 years ago. The saving grace for me was that I was still working, so I just buried myself in work, then dreaded coming home at night. Eventually the pain does subside and the wonderful memories do remain. At times I used think it wasn’t fair that my husband died so young, but now I’m just thankful that we had 30 wonderful years together.

TOM…..You must be on Down Under time.<G> It’s 10.30 Saturday morning here. I’m waiting for it to warm up before I take Sash for a walk, then do pruning. You mention the Golden Years. The only ‘problem’ I have so far is creaky bones when it’s cold (cold for me in the tropics that is) which is why I’m waiting until it warms up before going for a walk. One of my friends says ‘Old Age is a cruel joke.’ On mornings like this, I tend to agree. <G> However, for me, there are many wonderful things about the Golden Years and retirement. I now have the time to do all the things I never had time to do when I was working. On my 60th birthday, I had a ‘Over the Mountain’ party. (I was already gone over 3 hills <G>) I made a list of retirement goals and am busy achieving many of them. Staff meetings: The nicest thing about being retired is not having to attend staff meetings. I’m still doing part-time work, but it’s all the work I loved, and no staff meetings!!!

LOSALBERN…..I don’t wear a watch either but have clocks on the wall, and my mobile phone has the time displayed on it when I’m out and about. Like you, I love my life as a retiree, aside from cold mornings.<G> You mention that you consider retirement you’re third life. Here we have U3A (University of the Third Age) . It is run by, and all classes are taught by, and classes are attended by retired persons. U3A has branches in all cities and many smaller towns throughout Australia. So down under we honour the third age, or third life as you put it. Periodically, I teach a seminar at U3A called The Golden Journey…..making the most of retirement, the 3rd Age.

Bobbie

Bobbicee,

Good for you. Glad that you are filling your time with things you enjoy.

BTW, I am on the Pacific Coast of the U.S. it is now about 7:20 P.M., May 23.

Tiger Tom

hmmmm, I am in Fairbanks, Alaska and I have 6:51PM

The date stamp is an hour plus one minute ahead of me!

angelface,

I have been in Fairbanks. However, that was in 1956 for about a week or so and again in 1957 for two days. I imagine it has changed a good deal since then.

Fact is, I was in Anchorage, Fairbanks (briefly) and Point Barrow.

I have seen Barrow in documentaries and in news clips. I was surprised to see SUV's, Bars, and I am told there is even a Sushi place there. I wonder if the DEW line is still up there in operation.

Tiger Tom

Bobbiecee - Thanks for your messages. You are very understanding. I belong to the U3A here in England and have also taken part in one of their On-line Writing Courses. I went to one of the U3A Annual Meetings recently and looked around the room thinking if we added up everyone's years we would be running into the tens of thousands. Yet they were all so lively and energetic, and full of ideas. I guess the Third Age has its own consolations. Good Friends.

Barrow has really changed as has most of the state with the Natives Land Claims Act, the pipeline and the influx of many Asians.

The population has boomed, and while logging and fishing are feeling the pinch, tourism and oil are up.

angelface,

There was a Character to Alaska and the people there that I liked during my tour of duty.

It was still a Territory, somewhat of a Frontier, with a bit of the Frontier Mentality.

I will always remember Alaska with a great deal of fond memories and some not so fond.

I sure hope that the influx of people hasn't changed the basic Chraracter of the Alaskan.

Tiger Tom

Tom;

That hasn't changed too much. There has been a lot that was been left behind as new people from the states moved in, but surprisingly it is the Europeans who typify the basic Alaskan character nowadays. We have so many that come here for adventures in the wilderness and many end up staying.

Tom, when you listed your reasons for the gilt wearing off of the "golden Age",i.e., bladder, bowel, diabetes and all, once again I noted even more similarities. But then I guess that is to be expected as the cost of living for Seniors. It helps if you can maintain a sense of humor. I swear that my walk more and more resembles the Redd Foxx shuffle that he does on "Sanford and Son". Yes, I have enjoyed a prolonged retirement; I am working on year number 23! I don't know who created my actuary table but I am all for it! Hey, I think that U3A concept is a great idea and I'm curious to know what you teach there, Bobbie?

Angelface,

In the June issue of Smithsonian magazine, there is an article on Alaska you might read.

Tiger Tom

Losalbern,

Yup, I shuffle too. I try to take strides but forget and wind up with my usual shuffle. Even had comments on it from my neighbor (who is in his mid 70's and still strides along well.) My only excuse is a bad back and leg. It has only been interfering with my pace for a few years now.

I too have hopes for a fairly long life, if I take after my mothers side. All of her siblings, bar one who smoked like a chimney, are still alive, hale and hearty. Youngest one in her early 70's, oldest 90.

Having lived in some fairly nasty places during my 35 years in the Foreign Service I probably picked a few things that are just now showing up.

I am surprised I can still see well. I have: Macular Degneration, Glucoma, Cateracts, and possible complications from Diabetes.

You know the saying: "Everything hurts and what doesn't hurt doesn't work." The thing that might hurt the most is the memory. Keeps bringing up the days when I was young and vigerous.

Tiger Tom

All,

I guess this ends our discussion.

Thanks for posting, those of you who did.

Toger Tom

Tom, it's been a great discussion. Thanks for thinking it up and hosting.

These discussions always seem to end too quickly but I've enjoyed reading about all your firsts here. Tom, as always you did a great job.

Now, what's next?

Diane,

Nellie is up next with her topic.

Tiger Tom

Tom……I used to live in the LA area before I migrated here. I’m sorry you have physical problems, but at least you still have your good mind and your intelligence. I do hope you can keep your vision. My Mum had glaucoma and took various meds, but could still read to the end, which was in her mid 90’s. She had cataract ops as well. I’m fortunate I take after my Dad and don’t have Mum’s physical problems. Except, I don’t have Dad’s congenital valve defect so won’t need valve replacements.

Angelface, as you know, I visited Alaska the summer before I migrated here, and loved my visit, especially the frontier spirit and the wilderness. The Al-Can wasn’t sealed then. I guess that prepared me for the outback wilderness down under, and of course, I loved the frontier spirit in the outback, and miss it in Brisbane. I’ve only lived here in the ‘big smoke’ (as we call cities, although Brisbane doesn’t have any smog or pollution, thank goodness) since ’89. Prior to that, I lived either in the outback or in country Queensland on a property. I’m not a city girl and live as far from the Brisbane CBD as possible. I’m going to far west Queensland next month to see a friend (who I met through SN). It’s a 1000 km drive (660 miles) so I’m really looking forward to driving out there and spending time out there. I’m still a bushy. They say you can take the person from the bush but not take the bush from the person.

Jissup……I know the pain as I’ve been there, so feel I know what you’re currently going through, but bless your heart, you’re getting out, doing things, meeting people. Isn’t U3A wonderful? You are so right about people who attend U3A. They are indeed lively and energetic, full of ideas, intelligent and informed. A wonderful group of people. I do go to their lectures and take an occasional class.

Losalburn…… I don’t do much teaching there yet, just the Golden Journey Seminar on a quarterly basis. They want me to teach more, but I don’t have the time at present. I’m still working part time, am very active in my political party and in federal committees….foreign policy, etc, Mensa, and in National Seniors (grey power<g>) plus all my retirement and leisure activities, including camping, cycling, bush walking, and non-stop gardening….pruning and pruning, plus my social life. I run out of time, the days aren’t long enough. I plan to do more at U3A when I’m less active physically, whenever that is. On the news, there was a woman who is celebrating her 105th birthday. She only moved into a retirement village this year, bushwalked until she was 100 and still does a daily walk around the village, and she’s sharp as a tack with a really good sense of humour. So, who knows when I’ll have to curtail my activities and have more time for U3A.

I still walk fast with what my daughter calls my ‘tomboy strides.’ However, after my knee op, I did do the senior shuffle.<g> I think my dear dog is the one who assists me to keep up my fast walking. We take an hour walk in the bush in back of my property every day. I should say I power walk, she runs.<g> I’m quite sure that if it wasn’t for Sash, I’d still be shuffling.

I'll think about the new topic and try to figure out who my favourite characters are. I read lots of mysteries. I suppose DI Thomas Lynley is one of my favourite characters. I've read the entire series and watched the entire series on TV as well. I also like Barbara, his off-sider. I'll try to think of somebody else,....next time.

Bobbie