Curious Minds ~ 2005 March Export

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion

Is There Life on Mars?
Here is a basic summary of current knowledge from on-going investigations of the “Red Planet”.

Surveys uncovered blueberry-sized “concretions” on Mars’ surface. On Earth, these geological formations exist only where water once flowed.

Scientists have also detected fluctuating methane levels. Methane is that wonderfully odiferous gas sometimes called flatulence (or farts for the more “Earthy” among us.) It is also what makes refuse, swamps and other areas of chemical breakdown smell so “sweet”. The fact that levels are not constant would suggest methane gas is currently being produced.

Those two discoveries lead some scientists and laypersons to theorize that not only was there life on Mars in the past, but our planetary neighbor might presently contain living organisms.

If you believe that Mars is too inhospitable to support life, consider this. Life on planet Earth flourishes in areas without light, within toxic and poisonous gases and fluids, in the coldest and hottest spots on this planet and in forms too bizarre for even the most inventive mind to create.

The following links are annotated by their relevance to this discussion. Here are some thoughts I would like you to consider.

Has there ever been life on Mars?

Is there life on Mars at this moment?

What would proof of extraterrestrial life mean to you?

Topic Sources:

"Blueberry" concretions on Mars - The Geological Society
Extremophiles – extreme life on Earth. - Astrobiology Magazine
Is there life in the Solar System? – BBC News

Life on Mars? – MSNBC(scroll down)
Methane and life on Mars - BBC News
SpaceDaily –

MSNBC (you will have to scroll down the page)
Life on Earth - found in the most inhospitable places - Astrobiology Magazine –
Oregon State University – Bacteria found in rock

NASA News Update
Space News
Mars News
ESA (European Space Agency

Click on a link and let's talk it over.
Your suggestions are welcome
Visiting columnist, Alex Carrier, daughter of Annafair
Discussion Leader: Annafair

Books Main Page | B&N Bookstore

She qualifies for any discussion about curious minds since she has a curious mind. She qualifies for a senior since she will be 54 this year, Am not sure how that can be so since I am only 22!!

I know she will be along shortly and encourage you to check the links and see what YOU THINK!

To me all things are possible. In fact I think it is sort of snobbish to believe in all the vast universe we are all there is!

So thank you dear daughter for taking a turn for us. Bring your curious mind along and open this today!! Love annafair aka mom

Hi, Anna. You have chosen such an interesting topic to be discussed .
I watched a History Channel documentary explaining how we and other nations are seriously considering trying to establish living conditions on the planet Mars. The hope is to accomplish this in the next one or two hundred years.
This consideration is being given because over SEVEN-HUNDRED-BILLION tons of earth are being removed each year from our own planet and this soil removal is destroying planet Earth. The moderator went on to say that this soil removal is due to construction, the growing of food to feed us, and erosion by the forces of nature.
The moderator interviewed scientists, geologists, and engineers, etc. Each gave their opinion on how Mars can be cultivated for human inhabitants. These professional people went on to say that as the earth becomes uninhabitable we must seriously consider living on another planet. However, in one or two hundred years, I won't have worry about that.

Bill H

Welcome to my search for extraterrestrial life. I hope you find the events unfolding on our nearest planetary neighbor as fascinating as I do. To be honest, I hope there is life on other planets and Mars seems a great place to start. But, I am interested in finding out what you think about it. So, let the discussion begin.

Oh I am so glad this is back as a one click discussion with Books & Lit. The other arrangement was so convoluted I never did keep up with the discussion.

hmmm Life on Mars - but then what form of life on Mars - I think the word life takes a minute to think through because first image off the bat I think of is a prototype of a Human as we see humans on earth. Where as actually life could be a simple one cell bit of bacteria. The smallest as I understand it is about one millionth of a meter long and half that wide, and weigh less than a billionth of a billionth of a kilogram. And so sure there could be life on Mars.

as Barbara says it would be simple ..but then werent we simple once as well? I am thinking of how our life begins with a sperm fertilizing an egg.....in other words we have to start somewhere.

I have no idea but am always open to new ideas. The idea that there may be life on mars are that we can inhabit it is really old. How many books and stories have I read over the years that suggest both?

So in my opinon it is possible ..but Bill I want to ask a question ..yes we are removing earth to build but it doesnt really go anywhere. Except for humans what have we really created? We use what was already here to make things. Do we really create cement Etc

Just thinking after a restless night ..anna

Well, Anna, that was my thought also. When the History channel;s moderator explained that seven-hundred billion tons of earth was being removed annually, I thought is it really being removed? The soil that is excavated has to be put some place. Where?

Bill H

I am so glad you wondered too...700,000,000,000 tons of dirt? Well I am glad it isn't horse manure ! Which it sounds a bit like that to me! Who was this moderator and what were his credentials ? I have a habit of being the perennial doubter!

Have to go lay laminated wood flooring in my sun room. I hope it is easier to live on Mars than here ..no dust! unless, a horrible thought .. do you suppose all the dirt we are removing is going to mars??? anna

Some of these links..it is my first time to do so and there are a lot of interesting things there ...anna

The only material being 'removed' from earth is the materials used in satellites and space probes that are launched from the planet and even the satellites are only gone temporarily since they'll be coming back down as soon as their orbits decay. The space probes like Voyager which are now leaving our solar system are truly gone forever. While we lose very little earth-stuff from the planet, the USGS (U.S. Geological Survey) estimates that at least 1 billion grams of space dust fall onto the earth every year (that's approximately 1,000 tons). Earth is actually growing.

I believe that someday earthlings will temporarily live on Mars but I don't think we'll ever make that planet genuinely habitable by our species. We'll have to establish colonies either below the martian surface or under glass domes and then keep them supplied from the home planet.

Book me a seat on the next avaiable flight!

Amparo

What interesting information about soil removal etc. from you, Bill. I had not heard about that and will follow up to learn more. I do know that scientists are looking to both Mars and the moon as possible sites for human inhabitation.

Either place would require not only a lot of physical work to make it habitable but imagine what psychological work would be needed to make humans able to inhabit such a strange home? Although I would love to travel to such places (as soon as they figure out how I could do it without flying), I would want to return to the grass and trees and lakes and oceans of terra firma.

A lot of what I have read presented two additional reasons for exploring Mars. One was to determine if life had ever existed on Mars in the past and why it was now extinct. The other would be to see if life exists on Mars at the present time and how it differs from life on Earth.

If life did exist on Mars and went extinct, then determining what happened might lead to ways of preventing it from happening on Earth. If life presently exists on Mars, then it might reflect the true adaptability of life to hostile environments.

Either way, we probably should think of Mars as the “canary” in our solar system. What we learn from exploring Mars might help us prevent ourselves from turning Earth into an uninhabitable planet.

As for the one or two hundred years – who knows? Maybe we will live a lot longer than we expect. Alex C.

Amparo.

This may not be a seat on the next available flight but it is one of my favorite windows on the cosmos. This Astronomy Picture of the Day siet was created and is maintained by two scientists who realized they were be treated on a daily basis to a visually stunning tour of our universe and decided to share their joy with the rest of us. I go to it every day to see what is new and find going through the archives inspirational. Somehow, the pictures make me feel both insignificant and wondrous at the same time. I may be a small part of a magnificent whole - but I am a part of it. Enjoy. Alex http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Thank you Alex. Very gorgeous pictures indeed.

we of the "down under and upside-down" dont get to see those stars... and it is Autumn here right now.

cheers.

Amparo

Thanks Boomer for that link ...I will add it to my favorites for as you know we have too much city light to see the heavens ..You live on a mountain top and still have a good view of the world over head at night..lucky you! anna aka mom

Anna
I don't know who the History Chanell moderator was. I tuned in late and just caught the part I posted. But at least it was a different showing from the WW2 documents that this channel keeps repeating.
Now I don't certainly don't mean to demean WW2 because I'm a vet of that war.

Bill H

Too much of anything is too much ..I would never suspect you of demeaning anything about WWII ...period ...I am fond of yellow marshmallow rabbits at Easter but am really grateful they dont have them all year.!!

The program sounds interesting , the one the moderator is saying we are losing dirt because we are excatvating it..I would love to have said WAIT A MINUTE let me ask where is it going ..and the word about 1000 tons of space dust landing on earth each year.. I can tell you were a lot of it is >>>in my house. If mars is dustless I would be willing to go !! anna

My daughter brought up the idea to me that there are several scientists that belive there was and may still be water on Mars, but the Space program will not acknowledge their theories even though the scientists say the evidence sent back from Mars supports their theories.

So--- I said go home and send me some links. She says they are on her iMac at school and she is one spring break.

For some 3 billion years life on earth consisted only of one-cell organisms. We know now that such life can exist and flourish under extreme conditions, as in the hot vents on the ocean floor and in subzero climates. There was once something flowing on Mars --- whether it is water or some other substance is hardly as important. Thus the probability appears to be in favor of the existence of such single cell organisms and I think that the question should really be why would life NOT exist on Mars.

Since Bill brought up some questions about the amount of Earth being lost as presented by a History Channel documentary, I did some research. The confusion may be in the difference between earth/dirt and soil. Soil is that very thin layer that is capable of sustaining life.

Soil is being lost at an alarming rate and that may be the figure that was reported in the documentary. Soil is lost by human destruction, natural erosion, rainfall, wind and many man-made and natural factors.

Bill is correct. This is a considerable problem and one that is being addressed by many sciences. There is actually a “soil loss equation”. A lot of our soil is being transported by both water and wind into the oceans and other bodies of water. In the water, the problem is too much soil which hinders the natural movement of water and pollutes the water.

This may be what the documentary was talking about. Hope this helps. Alex

ALEX: Thanks for the clarification.

I would agree with KAROLUS' statement. Why not life on Mars? Is there an answer to that question?

Hello there, I am so delighted with this subject. This Seniors' Net is so imaginative and so wonderful. You have cheered me up considerably. I do believe there is Life on Mars; at present, on a microscopic scale. I believe that Life once existed on our Red Brother way before Life began on our Blue World. Being a bit of a looney toon Sci-Fi lover, I have a feeling that there was a planet between Mars and Jupiter and that something big and very bad came from out of the very much younger solar system and hit the X Planet (Ah -- Star Wars) and thus, the asteroids were born. This violent incident ended the Life on Mars beginnings and/or early civilizations. Nature is most unforgiving. Of course, a more logical explanation is that Jupiter and Mars may have had some gravitational problems, etc., etc. But -- the asteroids are a bit of a mystery.

Then there are those "glass tunnels" on Mars which have made me jump with joy (which is rare for me to be joyous these days -- Ha!!). I read that Arthur C. Clarke is thrilled beyond words (I hope he survived the Tsunamis). The Tunnels reminds one of Dune in a way. It's all very exciting.

Then, as we all know, the polar caps are melting like mad here on our Blue Jewel and like crazy on Mars!! If it doesn't disappear into space, it could do wonders to` the soil. But living there is a Big Problem: radiation is no fun. It is a Big Problem here -- plutonium is everywhere and it hangs around for 25,000 plus or minus years. Our ozone layer is a tragedy and so is our environment, water, air, et al. Our sun's having Class 5X explosions. Folks, we gotta move pretty soon. We will have to find a new home and sooner than we can imagine. I feel that there is Life everywhere in the Universe. I am crazy about the Moon too and have seen lights on our Lunar Sister. It's pretty common. My Webbie keyboard is giving me a hard time; sorry to go on.

One more note: I had a temp assignment with Robert Jastrow some years back. I had been told that in one of his editions dealing with Mars, he had declared that NASA had found some form of Life on Mars, but I have never been able to find that copy and don't recall the title at this point in time. Sorry to ramble. Take care. Christine

To be more realistic, I guess they'll send robotics to Mars, humanoid, that is -- like Blade Runner!! I think they, NASA, will speed up the time to go there -- not several hundred years, but much, much sooner.

Returning to my Sci-Fi mentality, I believe the Face on Mars was tampered with via the PC -- sorry, but I believe this fully. Why? Dunno. The shadow it projected was very, very high and dominated its surroundings no matter what the sun's position was. The 5-sided pyramids are, too, quite interesting, fascinating. There is a book by ? Chandler about the Pyramids on Mars. Have never read it, but sounds like fun. Those pyramids project huge shadows too. Yes, I believe there was once considerable water on Mars and there may be quite a bit still in some dark subterranean Martian world.

How marvelous it would be to see other extraterrestial civilizations, their art, music, history (free of wars?? Guess not.), their genius, etc. I would be thrilled beyond words. I believe in a very powerful Cosmic Intelligence who created all of this incredible Mystery. Wanted to know more about these Mysteries before I took off for good, but that won't ever be answered.

Another Note (sorry): Dr. Michio Kaku (I see him from time to time in the street -- ladies, he's gorgeous. Wrote Beyond Einstein, Hyperspace, et al) said on a radio program a couple of years ago that a number of astronomers are NOT pleased with Carl Sagan (God Bless him) for being responsible in sending out that Thingy (you know its proper name) into space telling THEM out there who we are, where we are, etc., etc. He feels that it would present a great danger to the human race if an advanced civilization would come to our shores. I've read this also in some books: e.g., MacVey, Instellar Travel. He says they would not come in peace and he says THEY are coming and soon. He's a serious astronomer from Scotland.

I would still love to know of other cultures here and way, way beyond. What a trip!!!! Take care. Christine Oh, did you know that Cairo, as in Egypt, means Mars!!! What fun....

The following paragraph is taken from a NASA site:

"Planetary magnetic fields could be an essential ingredient for life-bearing worlds circling stars with strong solar winds, worlds that need to retain a substantial atmosphere and liquid water. Indeed, if the Martian dynamo hadn't shut down billions of years ago, the Red Planet might be teeming with Martians today. Instead Mars is a frigid desert, apparently as barren of life as it is of its long-gone magnetic personality!"

The lack of a strong magnetic field around Mars has permitted the solar wind to blow away almost all of it's atmosphere. Also, without an ozone layer, harmful radiation from the sun beats down upon the Martian surface. It's also very cold on Mars and there's a lack of available water there. Not a very nice place for any type of space life we can imagine.

Of course you can't prove a negative so no one will ever be able to say definitely that there is no life on mars. The best they'll ever be able say is that 'no martian life has yet been detected'.

I don't think that our species will ever 'move' to another planet. The planets in our solar system cannot support our lifeform. We're stuck on this planet and we're fouling our own nest so we don't have an awful lot of time left. The distance to other star systems makes colonizing them out of the question for us, even if we could detect one that had conditions amenable to our lifeform. It's going to take one more step in human evolution before we can 'colonize the galaxy'.

The next step in human evolution has already begun with the invention of computers. Within about 20 years we should have a 'sentient' computer and the computer is our descendant just as surely as Homo Sapiens Sapiens is a descendant of Homo Australopithecus. It's just that the next step in human evolution (non-homo-cyberneticus-billgatesius) will not be a flesh and blood relative. It'll be a creation of our minds rather than of our bodies. It'll be able to survive the millennia necessary to space travel the vast distances to other star systems when our sun starts to die out. The era of the Von Neumann Probe is just around the corner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_probe

If I may paraphrase Pogo's "We have met the enemy and it is us', which makes even more sense today than it did when he said it, 'I have seen the future and it is not us'.

There was a reference to #180 Culture - Curious Minds. How do I find it?

Maizie

Where were did you read of a reference to #180 Curious Minds? And what subject were you interested in. Curious Minds discusses a different subject once a month, changing on the 16th.

Just got here and read all your interesting posts. I think we will keep investigating the question of life on Mars because human nature cannot give up on any unanswered question. But I don't think that anything we discover about why Mars became what appears to be a desert will help us prevent any future disaster on Earth. Our position in the solar system is much different from the other planets.

It has been said that our search for life elsewhere in the universe is really a replacement of our search for God. This theory says that we hope to eventually find more advanced beings who will help us improve our lives. Of course, as someone mentioned, these alien beings could also present a danger to humans.

As for sentient computers representing the next stage of evolution, this is probably a long way off. Computers have evolved quite a bit since the early days, but it is still enormously difficult to get them to do many tasks that are very simple for the human brain. In the lab, everyone gets excited when a computerized "hand" can distinguish a square from a triangle. And this minor task required an enormous amount of programming. So I doubt we will see "humanoids" in our lifetimes.

The solar system is too unhospitable for life (as we know it) anywhere but planet Earth.

In fact, I will go so far as to say that due to the infinite number of variables necessary for intelligent life it is extremely unlikely we will ever find it anywhere else in the Universe.

The SETI (Search for extra-terrestial intelligence) program in my opinion is a waste of time and money.

Remember NASA is federally funded, and they must somehow justify their expenditures, by raising hopes of finding water and life, which, I think, is an effort in futility.

I do not believe the solar system is inhospitable for either supporting simple forms of life or for providing us with the basic raw materials to carve ourselves a safe haven for colonization. There is no doubt that the former does exist ... look at the extreme conditions within which parameters we find life on this planet: high pressure, extreme levels of pH ( both acid and alkaline), intense cold and heat, etc. ... and life thrives.

As for ourselves and colonization, I have no doubt as to the sacrifices that will be required, nor do I doubt that we have people who will make them, just as our forefathers did long ago. It is true that there will be greater dependence on a more sophisticated technology but to each age and movement forward there has always been the needed intellectual drive in combination with great physical effort.

Therefore, as you can see, I do believe that life exists elsewhere ... we haven't even scratched the surface in this, the beginning of our search. I also believe we shall colonize Mars, and through dint of great effort the Mars colony eventually will become self sustaining through the use of its own resources.

The intelligence here is superb and is as high as the stars themselves and based on logic. However, I go along with #30 more despite the pure and fascinating logic presented here. #30 will know that famous formulae that describes how many civilizations exist in the Universe: the numbers are huge. Just can't recall it right now. Nature hates a void. Arthur C. Clarke writes of space which could be folded. McVey, Instellar Travel, describes space could have many shapes -- even being saddled shaped!! I "feel" that there are ways to travel from here to wherever. And will somehow be done someday. And they will find water which is on the Moon and Mars but you gotta look real hard. Even terraforming may be possible at some point in the future. But that ozone layer and atmosphere would come in handy.

Professor Warwick of Reading University, UK, was on a talk radio program and on TV last summer discussing Blade Runner and the creation of a Roy Batty android which they are working on Now. He said that we should not go down that path, but we are going to do it just the same. I agree with that robotic scenario somewhat myself stated here. It's scary too. They will be stronger and smarter. Also, our sun is heading towards being a Red Giant which is really scary. Man will have to find a new teepee!!!!

Space is hostile and Mars is not Heaven, but I think that this species will reach out for this Journey because it is there. Man has gone down to the depths of the seas, lived in deserts, lived in caverns, climbed mountains, gone madly into volcanoes and on and on and upward. It is some drive to reach for the stars which he may never reach but he will go out there just the same. The radiation is dreadful, the Moon and Mars are graveyards really, but that won't stop man. He sailed Earth's oceans fearing that he would fall off a flat world and/or be eaten by serpents, but he sailed away. I don't know how this will be done, but it will be, somehow. I am still amazed, and frightened, how these Big Silver Metal Birds which fly over our heads managed to stay up there?? But this is truly a stimulating trot through the Universe.

First and before supposition, define "Life." If you've tried to do this you know that it's not the easiest research you've ever done. Reaching for a dictionary is only the first step; after that give a thought to the fall-out from truly investigating the subject - you are going to run up against ignorance, first of all. You will encounter belief and disbelief in tonnage lots. You will face the evolutionists and the fanatical religionists with beliefs as hardened as diamond. Finally, after more hours than you ever dreamed possible (if, indeed, you are sincere in your determination to discover a reasonable, rational definition of Life) you will create your own definition and embark therewith into what may well be your very first mental expansion since you left your lazy days of absorbing and relaying the beliefs of your contemporaries. You may even become an educated, intelligent example of a very wise individual. --Eureka!

It was in Lifestylles - Aging #19

MAIZIE: Post 180 in Curious Minds (click here) is not a post by TEXAS SONGBIRD about Aging as is referred to in post #19 in Aging.

I am fascinated not only your opinions but by the references made to support each opinion. Writers of fiction and non-fiction, scientists and others have all been quoted. I am not familiar with some of the sources and look forward to acquainting myself with their work.

The topic of extraterrestrial life has been as wondrous to me as the diverse forms of life found on our own planet. As a writer, I am always exploring the “what ifs” of ideas. Many of the mental paths I have taken appear to have been journeyed by you as well.

Could humans live on another world? How would we react to such a life? How would extraterrestrial life affect our perception of ourselves – especially in terms of religion and philosophy?

And, of course, the problematic definition of exactly what “life” entails. Although robots will eventually mimic life with great exactness, I wonder if curiosity and creativity will ever be a part of that impersonation.

Most of the fiction I have read imbued robots with all the instinctive measures of life (survival, even procreation or replication and emotion) but none seemed to add curiosity and creativity. To me, it is much like interpretation of music or drama. I have often heard a music composition played with exact precision but much preferred the piece when played with less competence and more passion.

While studying for my degree in science communications, I looked into learning how to make a computer converse. What I thought was a simple process turned out to be incredibly complex. Talking was easy. Being able to converse with another was filled with emotion and social background plus so many nuances that I was stunned by how much we say beyond the words we speak.

I also discovered that computers far surpass humans in performing a “mental” task quickly. Computers, however, are far from being able to perform the millions of tasks needed to “live” for one second of our lives. Human life (and much of other life as well) is the ultimate multi-tasking mechanism.

Please continue to voice your thoughts. They are intriguing and have given me many more “what ifs” and “I wonders” to pursue. Alex

I have just read all the posts and have enjoyed each one.. whether is supports the possibility of life on Mars or any place outside of earth or whether is debunks the possibility.

In my lifetime I have seen so many wonders that I have reached a point where anything is a possible. So many things we have today in reality were once only in someones imagination. I have reached that place in my life where I know some of those dreams may come true but I wont be around to know. Still the dreams are there, the possibilities interesting and fascinating as this discussion is.

Also want to thank Alex for answering the questions re dirt and soil. Now that makes sense because I do remember that we have a limited amount of soil, that life giving essential and we need to be aware of what we are doing to it.

Thirty four years ago when we bought the home where I still live we were not only in the country but in the middle of an old and viable forest. A two lane road from town which was miles away led here and guests were often lost.

I have seen it destroyed ,yes other people deserve the right to move and settle but what hurts me most is to see the forest completely disappear and replace by cement and macadam .. What I will NEVER understand the developers of where I live left as many of the trees as possible just carving out enough to build a house.. Why must builders of malls etc other places destroy the trees ? There is not one tree left from all the building that is going on ...I understand the difference between soil and dirt and am apology to the person who made that remark on the TV show..

Alex thanks so much for your Curious Mind ..anna

Simple forms of earth-life could probably survive indefinitely and unsupported on Mars right now, after all we have earthly life forms surviving in the utter darkness and extreme pressures of the lowest depths of the oceans here on earth. We have 'ice worms' living in our icy glaciers (it's true despite the poem by R.W. Service). Life exists in the Great Salt Lake in Utah and in the bubbling steaming pools of Yellowstone Park. So there's no reason to believe it could not exist on Mars.

Complex life forms though is a whole 'nother matter and, intelligent life forms even more so because you've got to have the one in order to get the other. We evolved super-intelligence (as compared to other earth forms) merely because without it we would likely not have survived as a species, just like the giraffe evolved into a long-necked critter to get at the top leaves of a tree and the cheetah evolved with great speed in order to catch the gazelle, we evolved with intelligence. Intelligence is not a superior trait to speed or even to a long neck, it's simply what we needed to do in order to survive as a species. Speed or great strength would have served us just as well but then, we wouldn't be contemplating these questions, would we? Every species has to evolve with some protective measure or it gets eaten. Some critters evolved to taste bad to predators, some evolved camouflage, some speed, some with size, some with horns, et cetera, or as a default, with a very high birth rate. For us it's a large brain. You could have a planet teeming with complex lifeforms but with none of them having selected intelligence. Of all the species that are (and have been) here on earth, why is man the only one to evolve with the combination of super-intelligence alongside the curiosity and determination necessary to use it (dolphins and chimps are pretty smart but you don't see them sitting around contemplating the stars). Since only one of millions of species on this planet has evolved super-intelligence, I've got to assume that it's either not a very easy trait to develope or that it's not a very good trait. There's a lot more speedy critters on the planet than there are intelligent ones - that's got to tell us something.

With at least 100,000,000 stars in our galaxy alone, and with planets circling at least some of them, there's almost got to be complex life and even intelligent life on some of them and, if not, on some of the hundreds of billions of other stars in the other galaxies. In order for it not to be so, would be the equivalent of someone walking out into the middle of the Sahara and randomly selecting one single grain of sand and noticing that it had a bit of a red-ish tint to it and then searching every other grain of sand in the Sahara and finding that no other grain had a red-ish tint. The odds that we would have picked that one and only red-ish grain as the first one we picked up are just too fantastic to be accepted as reasonable. I have a feeling that, even though they might be rare, intelligent beings are out there.

Someone earlier mentioned an equation that has been used by some to determine the chances of intelligent life on another planet. It's known as the Drake Equation:

http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html

Of course, it depends upon your requirements for intelligence. Humanity as Homo Sapiens has existed for approximately 1 million years which is a minuscule amount of cosmological time. And the way things seem to be going with the human race as it destroys the environment and seems to be totally addicted to mistreating itself it seems very unlikely that it can make it through the next million years. It might be likely that other intelligent races have existed somewhere in the billions of years that the universe has existed and may exist again in the billions of years that the universe may exist to produce other life forms but that it might exist coincident with us and be capable of reaching the technological level to create a signal that might be recognizable to us as intelligent is a rather small probability. After all. we have not been able to communicate with the other life forms on Earth of intelligence at this point.What dolphins and primates and even birds who have recently been discovered to be quite intelligent may or may not think about is beyond our comprehension. It has recently been noted that the majority of university students are not aware of the reason for Earth's seasons and evolution which is the foundation for understanding biology is dismissed by a large percentage of Americans. One hundred and fifty years ago, which is practically no time at all, humanity knew almost nothing of astronomy, geology, electronics etc. A bit of humility is in order.

I am still asking the question why there should not be life on Mars.

An article in BBC News of March 17 discusses findings reported in a series of papers in the journal Nature relating to our topic. In particular, the article notes "the discovery of a frozen sea just below the surface of Mars" that "is thought to have formed within the last five million years. The sea was created through catastrophic flooding that accompanied volcanic eruptions". The "signs of a huge frozen sea on Mars hint the planet could still hold the right conditions for microbial life".

Beyond the assumed frozen sea on Mars one of the intriguing pieces of data obtained in the original Mars Rover was the detection of methane which has been taken as a sign of life since methane quickly dissipates and must be in continuous production by, perhaps, life to be detected. It might be of volcanic origin but so far, the source is not determined. Frozen bacteria many thousands of years old have recently been detected on Earth by archeologists and with the application of friendly conditions have returned to active life. Meteorites on Earth analysed as coming from Mars may have been the means for transfer of life originating on Mars to Earth so it is not impossible that Earth life originated on Mars.

but there's an even better chance that any Martian life we find will have originated on Earth instead of vice-versa.because we already know that there's life on Earth. A large asteroid hitting Earth would be bound to fling rocks that contained microbial life into space - the only questions are, did Mars catch any of those rocks and, did the earth-life survive the journey?

I think that those who specify water as a fundamental requirement for life are limiting themselves. Why should we think that just because earthly life requires H2O that all other life forms will also require it? We need water because it's the basis for our blood which flows through our veins delivering Oxygen from a couple of our cranial orifices to our lungs and it also delivers the nutrients from our food out to our muscles, bones, brain etc. What if there are life forms which can assimilate their bodies' requirements by mere physical contact. Instead of having to ingest a variety of food items and extract the fats, sugars, proteins and carbs we need for a later conversion to body mass and energy the other life forms might only have to physically contact a certain kind of rock or minerals and thereby extract what they need directly, i.e.no mouth, no stomach, no blood. Our way is very inefficient and, if you'll pardon the pun, 'wastes' a lot.

Perhaps the E.T.'s have taken photosynthesis to a whole new level and absorb all their requirements directly from sunlight. We all accept that plants evolved getting part of their requirements from sunlight and another part from the soil via their root systems. The mushroom seems to have gotten rid of the requirement for sunlight and needs only it's roots. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear that some other plant had evolved the other way and gotten rid of it's requirement for a root system and got all it's requirements directly from sunlight. Such a life form could live on what we could consider to be a barren planet.

The question posed on this thread is 'is there life on Mars?' and in response I've got to say that I think that there's a slightly less than even chance that there is. I'd give it 50/50 if not for the fact that we've overflown the surface of the planet and not seen any signs of life and we've put rovers down there which have done a very rudimentary exploration and found no life signs. I'm lowering my expectations from 50/50 to 40/60 (slightly less than an even chance that they'll find some rudimentary life form(s) on our sister planet).

Although it's an interesting speculation that life may exist without water, it seems doubtful that life would exist without some sort of fluid as a fluid makes chemical interactions rapid and easy. The possibility is that a gaseous interaction could duplicate the conditions of life and this might be possible on a planet like Jupitor or Saturn that have methane-ammonia atmospheres or there could be interactions of colloidal suspended particles in clouds. But none of this seems possible on Mars where the atmosphere is much thinner than that of Earth and there is no obvious other fluid on Mars to promote life reactions. There are dust clouds on Mars that might form stable electrical configurations amongst the particles. But suspended particles in clouds have existed throughout the existence of Earth with a good deal of electrical activity and so far no lifelike activity has been noted. But perhaps nobody has taken enough interest to find out.

Mushrooms and other fungus may be independent of photosynthesis but only because other plant species have stored the energy from sunlight in a form available to fungi.

MAIZIE: I believe I have finally found the post from TEXAS SONGBIRD. You can find it HERE.

The HYDE hypothesis says that if you have enough stars and enough planets, then there is a chance that a few of them could have conditions that support life. The big problem is that the exact conditions that created life here (atmosphere, temperature, gravity, water) MAY occur elsewhere, but not necessarily in our life time. During the few million years we have intelligent life, some other life may have, or will occur during some other time. TRAVEL The speed of light seems to be the speed limit that keeps any trip to some other star besides our sun to a minimum of 4 YEARS ONE WAY! We need a theorist and inventor to find a way to travel like they do in STAR WARS or STAR TREK. We need hard evidence of alien technology discovered to prove their existence, since anyone smart enough to observe and/or to visit us would not want their vacations spoiled by their exposure. Should anyone from a great distance contact me, I will let you all know ASAP. lol Seriously, I am afraid that the only life on MARS will be what we accidently bring there. A better topic among scientists might be, what could we do to MARS to adapt it for human life. WHY? What if the earth got hit by some big disaster and our life here soon ended??? It would be nice to know we have a back-up plan. BESIDES, WE NEED THE CHALLENGE! Remember the excitement of discovery when the source of the Nile was discovered? Or, the discovery of the exact location of the NORTH & SOUTH POLES?

Although invading Mars is a stimulating idea, thr current priorities set by the Bush administration for a human trip to Mars has violently impoverished other more important and more easily attainable NASA programs. The demise of the very important and useful Hubble telescope is most likely due to this skewing of NASA's scientific efforts. The current shuttles have proved how fragile and insecure our prsent human space systems are and the diversion of vital funding to a Mars project for humans at this time is destructive of more useful applications of the space budget. The very successful Mars rovers indicates that there is much more to be gained more safely and more economically by an extensive robot Mars project than sending humans prematurely.

I believe it's worth the time, trouble, effort and money required for robotic exploration of the solid planets in our solar system but I wouldn't waste a dime (nor a life) on humans in space. I don't think it'd be worth trying to transform any of those planets so that they'd be suitable for humans because the most probable end for our planet will come when the sun burns out it's hydrogen and becocmes a red giant at which time earth will become a cinder. Inhabiting the other inner planets would not solve that problem because, except for Mars, the other solid planets will be cinders even before Earth is and Mars will not be far behind.

As Barbees has already mentioned, nature's speed limit will provide a major drawback for any human's plans of travelling to other star systems. The 4 year trip (supposing we ever DID acheive near-light speed) to our nearest neighbor would do us no good because it doesn't look like it has any planets. None of the stars in our neighborhood would appear to have a suitable planet. Although we don't absolutely require a planet just like the Earth, we do have some prerequisites, the most important of which is gravity. Almost all of the extra-solar planets so far detected are so massive and have such strong gravities that an earthling would be flatened like a pancake if he ever landed on one of them. Without a means of violating nature's two most unviolable laws (light speed and gravity) our options are severely limited. Carl Sagan, while speaking on the speed of light, once said 'there are no penalties for violating the laws of nature because there are no violators'.

If I were making the decisions, I'd channel all of the world's space exploration money into developing a self-replicating space robot, aka a Von Neumann probe (a space probe that could land on suitable planets and, from the materials available on that planet, construct replicas of itself and send them off into space to repeat the process. In a few million years the entire galaxy would have been explored and all the data gained would have been radioed back to us on the home planet. The fact that this has not already been done by some other intelligent species would seem to indicate that, even though we may not be the only intelligent life in the galaxy, there is some reason to believe that we may well be the most advance (oldest) or at least the oldest species with an interest in space exploration.

I agree that the most sensible use of human capabilities at present time would be the use of robotic exploration in deference to sending a human expedition. But the progress of human understanding of how to live in space will probably come to a point within a decade or two to safely and economically send human explorers to the planets. At present the decreasing financial appropriations for space science in general means that great harm would be placed upon these efforts if almost all the funds are directed towards a human Mars landing.

Nevertheless many experts in the field have pointed out that it is most likely that a large asteroid or comet will eventually crash into Earth as it has done before to destroy the dinosaurs. It is a good idea to establish human life or some kind of life on another planet but we are rather far from that capability at present.

We are still further from the capability to send something at the speed of light to another stellar system. I remember, back in the 1940's that the idea of sending an expedition to the moon was thought to be possible only hundreds of years into the future. The world is full of surprises.

There is a strong suspicion that a large quantity if water ice resides near the equator of Mars. If the planet became warm enough, it might be possible to make it more habitable. It has been proposed to release a quantity of octafluoropropane gas which in the long run would cause planet warming. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/space/article/0,14493,1407176,00.html

Sorry but I disagree with that Guardian story. Mars would not be a very good candidate for colonization by humans even if it were warmed up. The main problem is not the temperature on the planet but the lack of a strong magnetic field to protect it's atmosphere from the solar winds. Mars, being quite a bit smaller than Earth, has experienced more cooling internally (at the core) than the earth and it no longer has the strong magnetic field it had millions of years ago. Millions of years ago, with the magnetic field weakening, the solar winds were able to blow away a substantial part of the atmosphere including the planet's liquid (and gaseous) water - only some ice that couldn't be blown away remains.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast31jan_1.htm

Also without the strong magnetic shield as well as a substantial atmosphere, Mars lacks the shielding layers (ozone and such) without which deadly rays reach the surface of the planet unhindered and would destroy any kind of plant or animal life we tried to establish on the surface.

I think our species will cease to exist if and when a large enough asteroid hits our planet whether it's a year from now or a hundred million years from now.

Since the danger of a catastrophic disaster seems to be one reason often mentioned during this discussion for “colonizing” other planets, there is one source of the disaster that has not been mentioned. While our own folly has been noted, the disaster remarked on the most has been an asteroid hit.

Another, possibly more likely, scenario will be the eruption of a super volcano. These eruptions are nothing like what we have experienced in the last centuries. Although there are only a few known such volcanoes – one is under Yellowstone Park.

Should any of the supervolcanoes erupt, they would change the entire world, plunging the Earth into a nuclear style winter. One is Sumatra 74,000 years ago is believed to have reduced the human population to hear extinction. This massive kill of humans was discovered when scientists determined that the population (and genetic diversity) was not as great as it should have been. By measuring minerals and chemicals in layers of sediment throughout the world, the scientists were able to date a volcanic eruption that covered the entire Earth in a cloud of ash.

It may be that the Earth is in more immanent peril than our Sun turning into a Red Giant or an asteroid slamming into the planet would suggest. Perhaps, having a back-up plan might not be a bad idea.

More than the peril, space exploration gives mankind a chance to dream and to follow those dreams. I believe that is what makes our intelligence different from that of all other species. We are able to conceive of ideas beyond our present reality.

Although “warp” drive and “folded space” are based in science fiction, history has shown us that writers and dreamers of science fiction often give those dealing in science fact ideas to follow.

Although there are many supposedly immutable natural laws, science has a history of discovering new facts that change – sometimes drastically – what has been thought to have been undeniable truth.

There was a time when the smallest particle of matter was believed to be a molecule. Then it was an atom, then the parts of the atom and now they talk about subatomic parts. Science has always been limited by our technology but never by our dreams.

One thing I have really been interested in has been the discussion on what is life. I think that may be one of the “truths” we will have to determine before we can truly state whether there is “life” on other planets.

To find out more about supervolcanoes try this site http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/1999/supervolcanoes.shtml Alex

Whatever the solar system conditions, humans seem clever enough to overcome the difficulties. If life on the surface of a planet is not possible, an underground civilization can be worked out. This would work on the Moon as well as Mars. And colonies in space are not impossible - colonies that can be moved in orbit from planet to planet if that is worthwhile. We are not up to that yet, but give or take a few decades who knows?

I just adore this Subject. You guys are brilliant. And thank you loads Keniwah for that Drake's Equation, etc.; I just couldn't recall it. Also I, too, saw that Yellowstone Documentary recently and nearly went into a dead faint. Had heard about that business some years back, but hoped I had imagined it. Santorini, Pompeii, Krakatoa and the others I knew zilch about almost pale beside what could happen and sooner than later. It feels as if Gaia, Earth, cleanses herself from time to time.

Life does exist in extreme circumstances as noted here. A volcano blew up not too long ago off of Iceland, Mt. St. Helena is getting itchy, Vesuvius has been grumbling for awhile. It does have something to do with the Sun's activities and the diminishing Ozone Layer. As stated here, Martian colonization looks very dim and with very good reasons. Plus the xtreme cold and those crazy windstorms which crop up yearly, engulfing the entire planet for weeks, I think. I guess we should call the place Miserable Mars. The Luna Orb is worse. But we are going to have to start looking around for new campgrounds and fairly soon. Got a bad feeling. There is an article here on the WebTV about our having discovered some new planets!!!??? Started to pull it up to read but the WebTV cut me off which they do 1X weekly.

I feel still that we will make a try to go to the Red Planet; we may even head underground. Those so-called "glass tunnels" on Mars do exist, they are huge and should be investigated. It is an anomaly but a very interesting one. I would like to be around to see what will happen, but I guess not. The people who go on this journey will need great courage, strong minds, hearts and spirit -- plus something to protect them from the fierce radiation. Man will work it out. Somehow. And I feel he will succeed. Frederick Brown wrote a sci-fi story called Letter to a Phoenix. I read it when I was a kid. He said that man will reach the stars only to discovered that he has been there already!!! Bless these sci-fi writers and their courage to dream and hope -- and to be positive and optimistic about Our Future (which, I must confess, worries me quite a bit). Hi Ho!

I haven't been here for awhile, so have just now found your answer to my query. I thank you for steering me to Annafair's discussion about food and eating habits. She sounds like she could be my sister, having grown up in large families in the "good old days" (not always so good). And Annafair is an old cyber acquaintance of mine, too. Thank you again. Maizie

I have read sometime back there are plans to have floating cities, space colonies above the Earth perhaps in this century!!! They will be very Earthlike and possibly necessary pretty soon.

Feel like I am the Voice of Doom and Gloom. Of course, our Satellites are sort of in the way and I don't know how high these floating Earths will be. There is, of course, the same dangers of solar explosions, meteor showers, and only heaven knows what else to worry about. All of you here make so much logical sense. I still want to cling madly to my Sci-Fi visions of finding "some place for us" so Earth's children can grow up in a fresh new world, a new beginning, bringing the knowledge, wisdom, writings, art, everything (on microchips!!) to this New Planet.

I read When Worlds Collide as a girl and loved it. But reading After Worlds Collide where we were on this beautiful (also) strange planet with exquisite cities (empty) was quite exciting. But that was a long time ago and memory fades. I also believe that man can go beyond the Light Barrier when he enters soars thru space.

The Universe has been around about 20 billion years plus or minus. I feel that worlds have come and gone. Isn't there a Star Factory in the sword of Orion which will have Life someday? While the Dinosaurs ruled here for 165 million years or so (you guys will know this one), and believe me, they were not going away anytime soon, other "civilizations" have had time to grow and even die, and possibly fly to the great beyond!!

I guess I am a bit of a looney toon about Life Out There 'cause I had a powerful UFO sighting some years back. Now we don't want to run down that path here, but it was quite remarkable, for me. It was a huge V-shaped vehicle, gray-black non-reflective metal, quite beautiful, silent, sitting on "its" V-point, with a large but soft white light at its V-center and red and green lights at its "wing tips." It had purity as if it had been poured from a huge mold -- it was seemingly seamless. Very striking. I do not recall the position of the lights. Sailing ships have red and green lights indicating left and right -- yes? I saw it from my back apt. windows. I had joined the Amateur Astronmers Assoc. and would Star Watch when I could. I was astounded by this sighting. I was using 10 x 20 binoculars. It was floating on a Sea of Air like the poets say. It turned quietly to its right and slowly went away going southwest. When you do astronomy, you really do see wonderful things.

These Astronomy groups have Star Parties all over the nation. Fun folks and the sky watching is great. Wait till you see Saturn thru a 15" scope. It's almost a religious experience - ha!! And flying over the Moon feeling like an astronaut, seeing the Lunar Highlands and the beautiful Black Lake, Plato. Spectacular.

Anyway, I apologize for the rambling. This is a fun subject and serious too. There is Something Out There and we will find it, we must.

It is fascinating that you might have actually seen something odd. All the scientists seem to have dismissed the flying saucers as wishful thinking and I more or less can see no reason not to go along with them. But an actual sighting would certainly change my mind. The shape you suggest sounds like some sort of balloon but I try to keep an open mind.

There is a book by Gerard K. O'Neill titled "The High Frontier" which details with illustrations the possibilties of space colonies.

It seems to me that mankind is at a crossroads and genetic engineering and nanotechnology is opening up possibilities that could change humanity forever creating innovative physiological systems that might survive in a vacuum and operate off electrical power instead of food and lungs. Perhaps a melding of robots and humans into a creature with intelligence. A strange composite creature that could exist on the moon or Mars without elaborate life support systems. After all, Humanity is only about 1 million years old which is no time at all in the life of a species. Cockroaches have been around for much longer.

How interesting that you should mention having an experience with a UFO. My column 2 weeks ago was on Space and I got emails from some friends about their experiences with UFO’s. Would not have known about it if they had not read my column.

I do believe that those with UFO experiences had some sort of event but admit I do not know what it was. Sometimes, the “official” version sounds plausible but other times, there are just too many questions. The more I research and interview and write, the more I learn about what I don’t know. Which is why your comments on this discussion have been so interesting.

Some of my thoughts. On this being such a chaotic time: There is a scientific theory that I cannot find the right keywords to access in a search, but the theory refers to the fact that society and individuals tend to react with both anticipation and dread at the turns of decades, centuries and millennium with each larger time span creating a more intense reaction. It is a highly exaggerated version of what we experience every New Year. That reflective time when we start to analyze what we have or have not accomplished and then make predictions or promises about what will happen in the New Year.

I think that we are at such a heightened time of through. That makes us all feel a little “more”. I personally feel elated, as if the potential is expansive beyond my imagination (and trust me, I got ONE imagination). This makes me feel positive. I know we will make mistakes but believe whole-heartedly that we as a species will ultimately do more good than not. And this is a time when each one of us has the chance to do some tiny bit of good that may make an enormous difference in our future. The opinions you have all given have not dissuaded me in that belief but made me feel that I am correct.

Will we go to other planets etc.? I believe that the human race cannot help but extend its path into the stars. Our ability to think and to imagine and to dream ourselves beyond what would seem rational or plausible is what makes us so uniquely human. Some have the compulsion more than others but it is a call that must be answered.

Now, on the stellar nurseries. Here are some links that talk about them if you want to know more: The Hubble Heritage Project with pictures and explanations of stellar nurseries http://heritage.stsci.edu/2001/39/supplemental.html

University of Illinois page on Stellar Nurseries http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/Bima/StarForm.html the link to the Orion Nebula is fantastic when viewed in full screen. It was one of the Hubble pictures I fell most in love with. It is somehow mystical and inviting and many other things I simply cannot convey with mere words. The animations on the page are worth the wait to download.

The University of Michigan site: http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/9596/Jan16_96/artcl13.htm

Enjoy and I look forward to more of what you all have to say. Alex

This is a two week discussion and the end is near, I want to thank my daughter for leading it and all of the posters who made it fascinating.

It would seem all who posted certainly entertained the possibility of life on Mars or somewhere in the universe in some form or shape.I have a feeling that most who came here would welcome that news. You are adventurers and open to any possibility,.And perhaps even a secret hope that what is out there is better than what we know here.

And for me I hope that somewhere there are other worlds to see, True I wont live to see them but I like to think my decendents will ..I have written a short poem about this. In fact it was meant to be a longer one but sometimes we meed to stop when writing a poem and allow it to be enough. This is enough..Thanks again for all who participated either by posting or just lurking to see what others thought. anna '

 
Is there life on Mars 

Scientists keep asking  and searching  to find  
If all the life in this universe is only  here  
I would say  if God so willed then  life  
Will be found everywhere  
What I would ask if it is so  
What Adam there prayed for a mate  
And what Eve appeared and did fate 
Decree she too would be beguiled  
By a serpent  practicing his whiles  
And eat of some fruit on that distant star  
Would they then leave their garden of Eden  
Or would they  turn away  from him  
And never  never know the sin   
Of disobeying  the Father God ? 

anna Alexander  
3/29/05©

As long as we're throwing in poetry about life, here's another.

EVOLUTION

The dream of universe
Is filled with shoals of stars
That caress
With fingers of gravity
Light years long.
In qualities more compact,
Strands of thought pull softly
Through the dream.
Chromas of love and hate
And curiosity
Become textured rainbows,
Colored smokes, twirling tornados,
Dancing miasmas, rolling fogs
That change and spin and change again
And coalesce to flicker
Into you and me,
Momentarily,
And then roll on, roll on
In waves of multitudes

Streaming out in threads of strangeness
So bizarre
As to crack to dust
The memory of us
That no longer resonates
Through the corridors of reality.

Have really enjoyed reading all your comments and getting so much information and input. I have already bookmarked the sites that were mentioned by others and will be checking them out again.

Probably a great way to end with the poetry from Mom (fairanna) and Jan Sand. I will be checking back occassionally to see what you are talking about. It was great fun. Alex

I have often wondered what fills the void when we pump out all the oil from an oil well.I think that it would be salt water from the oceans. If so, what happens when our oceans are all underground? I haven't been able to get an answer to this delemia. Anyone? Hy

Here is some information about oil

http://www.fe.doe.gov/education/energylessons/oil/

The ocean is not underground. Water is pumped down to force out the oil.

to a definition of LIFE. I would think that it is any organism or THING that can replicate itself. . . . Claire

so what comes next? . . . Claire

Thanks for the info Jan-------------Hy

And who knows where it will go ...Thanks again for all the posts, the thoughts and ideas...My only responsibility is to see that someone does a Curious Minds and what I love best is the surprise of topics..As long as the person who does a CM directs us some way to the printed page anything is usually okay. I say the last because some people are curious about some REALLY strange things!

Jan I am glad my little poem encouraged you to post yours ..thanks so much ..anna

This discussion is now Read Only. As ANNA said, watch for the next Curious Minds and join us there.

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines,
journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.

Two Articles To Kick Off Our Discussion:
Butterfly Farms are a Thriving Business and Conservation

Did you know ~~ Butterfly Farms protect the Rain Forest
and provide income in third world nations?

Have you ever collected Butterflies ~ planted a garden to attract Butterflies ~ placed potted plants on your window sill to attract Butterflies ~
visited a Butterfly Farm in your state? Links to investigate: The Butterfly Website Public Butterfly Gardens in the USA
How to make a Butterfly Garden Amazing Butterfly Facts and Links
Butterfly Gardening and the Rainforest Butterfly Utopia
Butterfly Events, Home & Garden & Facts Discussion Leader: Barbara St. Aubrey

For the first post on the topic Butterflies Click Here.

B&N Bookstore | Books Main Page | Suggest a Book for Discussion
We sometimes excerpt quotes from discussions to display on pages on SeniorNet's site or in print documents.
If you do NOT wish your words quoted, please contact ginny

Is this the year you plant something that will attract butterflies to your window sill?

I had heard of the tourist business in Mexico where the monarchs migrate for the winter but had no idea the money being made by butterfly farming.

More and more we become aware that the reason we have endangered species is because we are destroying their food source as we expand our cities and subdivisions. I think if more families were aware of the plants needed to attract butterflies they would plant them - so many families have some landscaping and just a few plants to attract butterflies would be so easy.

Almost feel like creating a campaign here - Plant for Butterflies - rah rah rah.

Seriously though is there anything so uplifting as seeing several butterflies at the same time in the backyard or in a field...?

Next week I really want to take some time and gas prices or not, drive out to the butterfly farms in this area - another thing, I had no idea that there are butterfly farms in just about every state within this nation.

Well Fairanna sent me a wonderful poem about Beginnings, which is what so many of us think when we see a butterfly, knowing recently it was a lowly caterpillar. Let's read her poem to open our conversation - so pull up your chair and bring with you your cup of coffee or glass of wine or drink of your choice and lets begin our conversation about butterflies.

Here is Anna's Poem: New Beginnings

Somewhere between yesterday and tomorrow

Lies a door, closed tight and latched.

It hinges rusting, holes patched.

The doorknob gone, the keyhole plugged

No light shines there, the lamp is out.

Standing in the vestibule of today's doubt

I peer through the dimly dark,

See another door, hear a steady din

Voices whisper, softly shout, invite me in!

Looking one last time, a final backward glance

At the old door, the portal to my past

Hesitant I pause, throw the dice, cast

My lot. Place my hand against tomorrow's gate

My journey still ahead, my life incomplete

Reborn, a Phoenix rising from the blackened heap

Of ashes buried deep. Lifting my head, I face

The dawning day, the starting place.

Impatient now to see the morning star

Raise my voice in joyous singings

Embrace the land of new beginnings.

anna alexander 12/18/96

beautiful poem. now what kind of plants do attract butterflies and what kind of butterflies are attracted. . . . Claire

nevermind I just visited this link from the heading. lots of answers and beautiful pictures. http://www.uky.edu/Agriculture/Entomology/entfacts/misc/ef006.htm

Thanks for the link, Claire. We've had butterfly bushes from time to time (none at the moment), but I surely didn't know that rosemary attracted them. I was going to put some herbs out, and rosemary was going to be one of them. Maybe I'll put out more now.

they are near sighted so put out LOTS. . . .(s) I wonder if they like Celantro. I do. . . Claire

I've tried to grow cilantro, but with no success. It'll do fine as long as it's cool, but as soon as the temps warm up, it bolts, and doesn't do much good. Do you have success with it? Maybe I could grow it inside.

I live in San Clemente about a thousand feet from the ocean so except for a couple of days in summer the temps here are temperate. I haven't tried to grow it here and I have just a couple of small patios. does it like sun? or shade? what is your experience and is your location anything like mine? . . . . jClaire

Claire are you on a migrating path for Butterflies? Looks like a band comes down through California but they may come down more inland. I didn't know that butterflies had a problem seeing - we use Rosemary here because the deer will not eat it.

Mary sounds like you are deep into spring when the weather is still un-predictable. Are there many azaleas growing wild in your area?

In the site above called "Amazing Butterflies facts and links" you can actually donate as little as a dollar and get the untold number of 50 milkweed seeds - here is the page Free Milkweed seeds

On that same site they also list the various plants that will attract various butterflies in the different parts of the country Butterfly Guide to planting I found these plants that are also on the list of plants the deer will not eat and they attract butterflies as well - Lantana, impatiens, marigold, mint.

What I didn't know is there is a butterfly that in caterpillar stage eats Bermuda grass and crabgrass - so much for putting bug spray etc. on the front lawn...no wonder we do not have as many butterflies.

I think I am going to send away for those seeds and donate a few dollars so I can get enough seeds to plant along the school yard fence across from my house - there are 10 acres of fields and tree covered areas that soon will not have any kids at all except in the evening when they are on the far side playing softball. It would be a great surprise for them to come back in August to all these milkweed bushes wouldn't it - good excuse for me to meet the principle - and I think I will make up gift packs of seeds for all my friends.

This will be fun...!

Claire and Barbara, Chattanooga is in the SE corner of TN - near the junction of the AL/GA/TN line. We're in gardening zone 7 and have 4 distinct seasons. We definitely have some hot days during the summers and some freezing in wintertime. Generally it's great. I'm no expert, but it's my impression that cilantro likes cooler weather - a spring (not hot weather) herb. The cilantro seeds are another spice (whose name escapes me at the moment), and when the temps get warm, the cilantro will bolt and get leggy, with few leaves (the cilantro part) and start making seeds (ah, yes - coriander). I've always heard that, in general, herbs like lots of sun. I have mint and oregano taking over a raised bed. I've visited gardens here where various kinds of thyme were planted between paving stones in a walkway. It stays low and bushy, and smells so good when it's crushed. I'd certainly do that if I had that sort of garden.

Azaleas are native to this area. The woods in the mountains (and Great Smoky Mountain Nat'l Park) are full of azaleas, rhododendron, and mountain laurel. They're coming into bloom now, in the warmer areas, and are so lovely.

Mary for years I did have cilantro growing in a rather hot sunny spot in my yard - a couple of times I let it go to seed but never did collect or use the coriander - cilantro is used in so many Mexican dishes. In this area we are familiar with eating Italian and smiling since cilantro was used in place of basil and that is when we know the chef is probably Mexican - very few Italian families live in the Austin area.

But the coriander is right up the alley of old Austin families who were Swedish and later the German families were "allowed" in - yes, allowed - would you believe after Mrs. Dickerson who survived the Alamo left and after years of hardship she married a German man and because of that she was not allowed to settle in Austin...!

The coriander is used in both Swedish and German recipes and with the Mexican families using the green cilantro it was a sought after plant.

I have just been fascinated with the butterflies - that you can order them to fly at a wedding - who would have guessed - I found a butterfly house on the internet for only $8.98 where all the others were $19 and $24 - this $8.98 one was on sale but it was originally only $2 more and so I ordered it thinking if it was easily put together it would be fun to make some - it arrived yesterday and it is just as easy as can be except the long thin entry holes would take a special tool - I figured the butterfly houses were probably due to raise in price since I could not find them anywhere else for that low of a price.

I think I will see if my son can make me a few now that we have a pattern. A butterfly house, a small book on butterflies and a packet of milkweed seeds would make a nice gift wouldn't it...

I've seen monarchs but then they are the only ones I recognize. coriander and cilantro are the same thing? I use the green celantro all the time in salads mostly and this area is big on mexican food so it's in a lot of the resturants. coriander doesn't seem to have a taste or smell to me. . but that could be me. I can only plant it in a pot but that's moveable so I'll see where it is happy. do I snip off most of the green to keep it growing or let it keep some for harvesting sunlight? I'd just go in with a scissors and take what I need if there's enough.

Claire

seems so Claire - here the link with the photo and how it is described in every imaginable language - if you look the Danish version is coriander and the Spanish version is cilantro - so just let the cilantro go to seed and voila Coriander/Cilantro

I found this that are maps of Mexic showing the flyways for the Monarchs but scroll and near the bottom is a small map of the US showing where the Monarchs are located - there is more information about the Texas flyways but in the Mexican site they talk of the mountains separating the plain states from the West Coast and indicate there is a Rocky Mountain flyway. Migration Pathway Mexico

I love cilantro in almost anything - not just Mexican or TexMex. Your supermarket spice section will have cilantro (the dry crumbled leaves) AND coriander (small brown spheres). Usually you can get the fresh leafy cilantro in the produce section.

I love your idea, Barbara, of giving the butterfly house kit, book, and milkweed seeds.

The only butterfly of note we have here is the Monarch. There is a Monarch butterfly house not far from here. My daughter has been there several times and Brooke went recently as part of her science curriculum at school. People look after the Monarch here and My mum til recently hatched dozens each year in her Conservatory.

I have seen my mother in tears over a deformed butterfly that my stepdad had to despatch to its maker. I don't breed them in my garden any more as I always run out of swan plant and can't bear to see a caterpiller die! Its too traumatic for me. (What a whimp!)

The Monarch heralds warm weather and disappears in autumn. They apparently fly up to our far north and assemble inside this hollow tree that is thousands of years old. They must hibernate. Then they fly back in spring. Fascinating!

Carolyn

Our daughter, SIL, and grandson got our flowerbeds done this weekend (such a wonderful crew!). They separated and replanted lots of iris, daylilies, daffodils, hostas, and purple coneflower. New, we planted some ornamental grasses, clematis, blue salvia, and herbs (especially rosemary). Now, if I water enough, maybe some of this will live and even attract a butterfly or two.

fooling around with my new planting spot in front of the house yesterday and saw my first two butterflies of the season - been searching off and on since then trying to figure out what they were - I think - because I have not been studying butterflies - I think these are the two that I saw Phaon Crescent

And then this pretty little yellow one that was flying over the lawn Clouded Sulphur this is the one I am least sure of - I saw on a Japanese site a photo for an "ordinary grass butterfly" that was closer in looks but I cannot find that name of a Butterfly in the US much less in Texas.

Gotta get off here - thunderstorms growling - and the lights have flickered...

The lead headline in the Chattanooga Times Free Press this morning (4-21-05) was "Frequent Fliers" "Butterfly exhibit part of aquarium's addition". How exciting! How timely! We've been members of the TN Aquarium since before it opened in 1992(?), and of course knew of the soon-to-be-opened addition, "The Ocean Journey", in a few weeks. I didn't realize there would be a butterfly exhibit in the new facility. So now we'll get to have our very own butterfly house here at home. And John and I are going for a members' preview visit tomorrow afternoon.

This is a link to the paper Frequent Fliers but I think you have to sign up for the on-line paper. Here's the story that I'll copy and paste.

They come in all colors — pink, orange, yellow and violet. Some look like tigers or zebras, while others seem to have been splattered with a paint brush.
And though they live at the Tennessee Aquarium, they don’t swim in water. The tropical butterfly exhibit in the aquarium’s new $30 million addition, set to open April 29, is home to 1,000 of the winged insects from across the globe.
"It’s almost like an Easter egg hunt — the more you look, the more you’re going to find," said Bill Haley, education outreach coordinator for the aquarium. "We wanted to do something that has never been done here in Chattanooga."
The closest tropical butterfly garden to Chattanooga’s is at Callaway Gardens in Pine Mountain, Ga.
Visitors who stand still long enough more than likely will end up wearing one of the butterflies, which range from the size of a quarter to larger than your hand. Mr. Haley said aquarium employees will discourage visitors from touching the delicate insects.
A cool blast of air blown on visitors on the way in and out of the exhibit helps ensure that the butterflies stay inside the garden. U.S. Department of Agriculture regulations prohibit the release of non-native butterflies into the wild.
A glass case along one wall holds dozens of pupae — butterflies in the cocoon stage — waiting to hatch.
Mr. Haley said the aquarium will bring in about 500 pupae each week to keep the garden’s population between 750 and 1,000. A butterfly typically lives two to four weeks, he said.
The 2,500-square-foot exhibit hosts about 60 species of butterflies and boasts dozens of varieties of tropical nectar plants on which the insects can feed. For the butterflies that prefer to feast on fruit, trays of sliced bananas and oranges are scattered throughout the garden.
The exhibit usually stays at about 80 degrees with about 70 percent humidity, Mr. Haley said.
The insects are from Costa Rica, Equador, the Philippines and Malaysia, among other countries.
For educators, including Lutheran School teachers Joyce Covington and Karol Whitmire, who toured the garden Wednesday, the exhibit is a way to bring lessons about butterflies to life.
"They can learn the stages from caterpillar to chrysalis to butterfly and can learn to identify them," said Mrs. Whitmire, a first-grade teacher. -end-

How exciting Mary - almost makes me want to arrange a side trip on my way to my daughter's next fall - Pine Mountain Ga. and how far is that from Chattanooga? - with the cost of gas though few of us will be driving around the country for pleasure any more...hhhhuuh

Barbara, I find two Pine Mountains in GA. One is SW, near Warm Springs, GA - that's not too close. The other in the NE corner of GA in the mountains near Clayton, GA. Chattanooga is in the SE corner of TN, near where GA, AL, and TN come together. It's where I-75 and I-24 come together (and I-59 is just a little west of there). Does that help. You could do a day trip from Clayton to Chattanooga. I'd do an overnight if you're coming from the other Pine Mountain near Warm Springs. We'd love to have you - there's lots to see and do here.

What an interesting topic for discussion! Wish I had more to contribute but for now, just a few comments.

Several years ago we lived close to Pismo Beach, California where there was a grove of eucalyptus trees. This happened to be a spot where the Monarch butterflies chose to overwinter regularly. We drove down to witness this unusual event and, true to all the reports we'd heard, the trees in that particular grove were literally COVERED with the butterflies. It was an unusual sight and hardly to be believed. Wish I'd taken a few pictures. One thing I learned that was especially interesting was that the butterflies we were seeing would not live to make a return trip - it was their offspring that would return the following year. Mind-boggling, huh?

And here's just a little snippet that I think is kind of neat. Several years ago Carolyn (Kiwi Lady) posted in another discussion something about how she had planted bushes that were known to attract a certain butterfly, or maybe several types, can't remember, and, of course, the caterpillars that came first. She talked about looking after the caterpillars and ENJOYING them!

Well, I had always thought of caterpillars as a necessary evil if you wanted to enjoy the "finished products" - the butterflies. But enjoy them? Perhaps I remember too many of the tent caterpillars we used to have when I was growing up - they made awful-looking "tents" in our fruit trees and did a pretty good job of destroying their foliage every year.

But anyway, now all these years later Carolyn had offered a totally different slant on the subject. Believe it or not, shortly after I walked out our front door and there was a CATERPILLAR on the front steps! My first impulse was to scoop in into something (a LONG-handled shovel, perhaps?), carry it away and mash it into the dirt.

But, I thought of Carolyn's nice comments and instead carefully got it moved into a nice leafy area where it might live its little life in peace and safety. And every time I saw a butterfly later on that summer I wondered if it was the one I had saved. Or better yet, that a kind lady in New Zealand had caused to be saved!

And finally, for now, I have heard stories but can't remember details of butterflies "attacking" birds. Anyone know anything about that?

Thanks, Barbara, for leading this interesting discussion. There's something magical about butterflies and it's fun learning more about them.

Diane thanks for peeking in - yes, it is a temptation to squash those caterpillars isn't it - but I think the tent caterpillars created a moth rather than a butterfly.

Hope the butterflies hadn't migrated too far north and caught in the snow - winter is sure hanging around this year isn't it. Even chilly here today...

Mary my daughter lives near Hendersonville in NC but I can take a long way and drive through the mountains coming in the back door so to speak - I did it once two years ago but it is like taking a mini vacation on the way - typically I drive straight through and take I-10 to Mobile then straight up to Atlanta passing Montgomery then take 185 east out of Atlanta to Greenville SC and then on north about 30 minutes to my daughter's

I can do that trip in around 16 hours. Where as to go to Chattanooga I have to turn north at Birmingham and then over the old Appalachian Hwy - it is definetly a two day trip without stopping. But the fall is pretty and sometimes I am ready for a side trip in the fall - I do not know yet about this year though but this Butterfly center sounds facinating and I would love to see it.

Barbara, Hendersonville NC is such a lovely little town. Lots of good arts and crafts there - and not far from the Appalachian Craft Center at Asheville. Also Brevard NC nearby is nice. Whichever route you take, have a safe trip. And if you decide to come to Chattanooga, let me know, and maybe we can get together for lunch or coffee.

Hi, everyone,
I'm a butterfly gardener from 'way back. And it's true. Monarchs are very territorial. I have seen them
chase away other butterflies from their favorite spots.

Birds? not certain that's true. Maybe a shy bird.
The key (hope this is not too much info. repeating) is that the milkweed, the monarch's preferred plant, is
toxic to birds and to other animals. Someone could very well have seen an inexperienced bird
take a little nip, and then fly off, saying yuck.
While the monarch laughed?

Toxic to birds - thanks for telling us that Mippy - would never have guessed and hadn't read that tidbit --

I wish I knew what was toxic to the crackles that are moving into the area - they end up chasing all the song birds away and they are so thick down by UT the noise is deafening in the evening when they all fly thick into the trees turning them from green to black. They have tried everything down there from cannon booms to strange sounds over outdoor speakers with no affect. I just pray that is not our fate here in a few years as they are moving further away from campus.

Back to butterflies - out near Fredericksburg there is a wild flower farm that now has a butterfly shelter and garden - thought I would have checked it out last week but it was one thing after the other - and this week is not much better - but it is high on my list of things to do.

Today is one of those rare glorious days - the overcast skies we have had for over a week are gone - clear blue, cold this morning and warming up nicely this afternoon they say. I think we have about one more week and then we will be socked in again with smoke from Central America so thick it will block out our sun for about a week - need to get my air filters changed out - was going to wash some curtains but no sense to that until the smoke week or two is over.

Been looking closely at the small garden I planted this year - no butterfly yesterday but the most beautiful blue iridescent dragonfly. Now I need to get a book on identifying dragon flies - I did not even know till recently that there were many different dragon flies.

Mary, my daughter actually lives in Saluda just east of Hendersonville - and yes, I found Hendersonville to be charming - their downtown area is like a painting of what a small town aught to look like, especially during the holiday season.

Well I am off today to take my drivers ed - would you believe got a ticket practically in my front yard - the school limited speed was flashing but, since school was not out yet, I paid it no heed and sure enough there was a policeman on motorcycle waiting behind the parked cars in front of the school - double fine in a school zone but must do this or my insurance will go sky high.

Sorry about your ticket, Barbara - that's so embarrassing when that happens. Just have to grin and bear it, though.

And terrible about the smoke - I haven't heard anything about that. Does it happen often there. My aunt lives in The Valley, and she hasn't mentioned any problem like that.

About 20+ years ago when we lived in another Hendersonville (TN, near Nashville), a flock of starlings and grackles set up a winter roost not too far from our house. They were AWFUL! We could hear them even through the storm windows. The usual repellent around then was to spray them with a detergent solution just before a cold damp night, and it'd wash all the protective oils off their feathers. Effective, but non-toxic. The roost near us was over a wetland, though, and they couldn't use the detergent - so we just had to listen to them. I hope they're gone from your area soon.

As a child we would watch for moth at night in the backyard near a garage light. Nearly every year we would see and capture a Luna moth, sometimes called Moon moth.

The cocoon feeds on leaves of walnut, hickory, and sweetgum trees or similar trees of the area. We had a sweet gum tree then: so when we retired and moved to town, we planted a sweet gum and walnut. I sent to a scientic supply store for 6 cocoons (live we hoped) and attched three to each tree -- following directions.

The first year we never saw a luna, but four of the cocoons were hatched out -- the others must have died. Three years later sitting out in the yard one late June evening we saw 2 near the garage sodium light.

That was 10 years ago. Now in late June I try to see if the Luna will return. I have seen them several times. The most recent was last summer. I'll be looking again this year.

This web site from Viginia, Fairfax County Public Schools, Stratford Landing Elementary School has some good photos and information.

http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/StratfordLandingES/Ecology/mpages/luna_moth.htm

As you know I have had company for two weeks and of course planning and cleaning for a month at least ( I am not an organized person and really can use a guest several times a year to inspire me ..so take heed everyone and plan a visit to me in historic Virginia where I am near Yorktown, Williamsburg and Jamestown) I cant say I am rested but after a very early start to a day ,,4:15am to drive anneo to Richmond for her flight to California I returned home to a house that now seemed empty and sad. I did all the linens and started to put things away because I was so hyper and also needed to deal with the fact my friend and company had departed but by about 12:30 I ran out of gas and more or less slept until this am and here I am checking on the discussions.

We have a lot of butterflies in my yard and dragonflies as well, By the way there is a dragnonfly society ,,I dont have the link on this computer but I found it on google, And as for caterpillars my youngest son when very small was laying on the back porch looking at something in his hand ..when I went out to ask what he was doing he looked at me with his sweet smile and said I am playing with my friend , a lovely catterpillar was moving back and forth across his hand,,,,We would bring cocoons indoors when we found them and placed them in very large gallon jars to see what spring would bring..one year we had this gorgeous huge blue butterfly ( the name I knew when I started writing this but drat I cant think of it now) we carefully released it...Luna moths ,,I can recall coming home one evening to find one on my front screen door ,,it was just so beautiful ..I am not sure why we have so many butterflies and lovely moths but I am not into a green lawn ,I have moss much to the disgust of my neighbors who abhor moss...and lots of flowering plants, a plum tree, and apple tree, azaleas, hydrangeas , gardenias ,lilacs etc I have no idea if butterflies etc love them but if that is that case I will plant more! Barbara thanks so much for this discussion ,..I am late to arrive but will perch near and return,..anna

Pat I have never seen a Luna Moth - how special - had to look them up on the great site you provided as well as a few other web sites with photos of the moth - BIG - wow - but beautiful - are they that beautiful to look at during the night hours - can you see them other than under a light?

Mary I wonder if your aunt is just so used to it that it is no longer news worthy - I cannot imagine that the amount of smoke we experience would funnel up across the border in a narrow band and not hit the border area near South Texas - now I could understand it it did not cross over in the West Texas area of the Border but I have never heard the news tell us or show us a map of where exactly the smoke comes - last night we had another cold front with lots of rain and that pushes the smoke away - although this year the smoke has not been near as bad as some years.

Great tip on how to wash the oils from the feathers of the grackles - hmmmm looks like I need a gentle spray connection that will provide a long stream of soupy water - I am tempted to get one of those pop guns that shoot out paint spray and figure out how to have capsules of detergent rather than paint. I'm going to pass this bit of information to my neighbors and see what we can do...thanks...!

Anna you bring us right back to the beginning with the catterpiller story - those caterpillars are not the most attractive are they and yet to realize the beauty they will create it is worth having flowers that will attract the caterpillar to eat the leaves not just the flowers that will attract the butterfly. I remember you saying you keep things growing around your house in a more natural state - but unfortunately it doesn't sound like your neighbors have caught on to the value of natural...ah so...!

Visited a friend this week who lives closer in town where there deer are not roaming the streets. She can plant without worrying about what they will pull up and toss around the yard in their mouths. Well she has a curved wide border along the perimeter of her front yard with all sorts of herbs and bushes and yucca. Included in her collect where Butterfly Bushes which were blooming - lovely - and the red yucca was blooming as well she had chives in bloom and several mints just spreading out all in the shade along the side of her house. What a grand visit - I just love visiting where I can walk with someone in their garden and talk about what they are growing and how they transplanted this or that from this neighbor or the woods or along the side of the road - just so much fun...

Barbara, your friend's garden sounds wonderful. Like you say, it's fun hearing about where specific things came from. My mother was an inveterate plant pincher. She stole from some of the best gardens.

I'll try to remember to ask my aunt or cousin about the smoke. About the grackles - the spraying was done from helicopters or small planes by a municipality or by the state, not by individuals. I don't know if it's something an individual could do or not.

Sometimes a large group that has a roost in the general vicinity will start to land in our yard (the scouts see the feeders from the air) and the trees behind our house. If I see them, I go out on our back deck and bang two saucepans together. Usually that much noise will make them leave. I'm sure I'm quite a sight

, but I'd do almost anything to keep them from thinking our woodlot is a good place to set up a roost.

oh like crop dusting - puts a different picture on the process - well who knows we may have some luck with some spray - seems to me there is this guy on PBS that has a show about using normal kitchen ingredients for the care of plants - I cannot imagine that soap hitting the leaves of trees will do any damage because in the trees we will probably have a better chance of hitting those black grackles. I cannot figure out where they are roosting but their number this year is more like two dozen as compared to last year when only 4 or 5 were in our yards.

about putting soap or other household products on plants,
if you want to have butterflies in your garden!

My best hint about butterfly gardening is to be patient!
This week, in my Florida yard, the larvae of butterflies are finally appearing on my rattle-box pea plants (weeds, to less enlightened gardeners). They will turn into either yellow sulfur butterflies or our special Zebra butterflies; I'm not sure which, since both species visit the plants. I've been growing these plants for over a year!

In our garden club butterfly garden, we have those 2 species, plus monarchs, little blues, little browns, and several others. Most of my reference lists are at the club, so this list left out a few.

I'll be out later next week, so just taking a line now to say thanks to all of you who have been
posting in this very nice discussion.

Barbara, I asked my cousin if they'd experienced the smoke you mentioned. Here's his reply:

"we've had some but only on days with light winds and you can guess how frequent those are! It is fairly common."

It does blow a lot down there.

Mippy your garden club has a Butterfly Garden!!! how fabulous - tell us please, what plants are in the garden?...is the garden open to the public?

Mary with these cold fronts this late in the season we are able to open windows to the fresh breeze since they blow the smoke away from the Austin area - it only takes the breeze to stop though and it is back - usually it lasts about 3 weeks so we have about 2 more weeks to go...

May Day Celebration by Johann Wolfgang Goethe
Translation by John Sigerson

How grandly nature
Shines upon me!
How glistens the sun!
How laughs the mead!

From countless branches
The blossoms thrust,
A thousand voices
From underbrush,

And joy ecstatic
Fills everyone.
O sun! O earth!
O risk! O fun!

O love, oh, lovely,
So golden fair
Like morning cloudlets
On that hill there!

You prosper grandly
The dew-fresh fields
With breath of flowers;
The whole Earth yields!

O maiden, maiden,
How I love thee!
Your eye's a-sparkle--
How you love me!

Just as the lark loves
Singing and sky,
And morning-blooms thrive
On heav'n-mists high--

So do I love you,
With throbbing heart,
Who give me the youth,
Joy, courage, art

To fashion new songs,
New dances free.
Be ever happy,
As you love me!

Thanks for asking, Barbara! Here goes with a long list!

The Boca Raton Garden Club has a clubhouse with a garden, which is certainly open to the public, but an appointment would be better. Please post to me, anyone interested, with your e-mail address, and I will supply more details on hours and location.

The following plants are in our garden, and are easy to grow in our climate:
(host plant for caterpillars, followed by species attracted)
Passionvine, zebra longwing and gulf fritallary
Milkweed, monarch
Pipevine (Aristolochia) and parsley, Polydamas black swallowtail
Citrus spp, "giant" or yellow swallowtail
Plumbago, Cassius blue, or little blues

Many of these butterflies, plus Sulphurs and little browns, nectar on the following additional plants:
Porterweed (Stachytarpheta)
Butterfly sage (Cordia globosa)
Firebush (Hamelia patens)
Jatropha
Lantana
Rattlebox pea

Great - now I need to take your list Mippy and compare it to the deer list so that I can start to plant more butterfly and caterpillar attracting plants that the Deer WON'T eat.

In a rush today - we are getting close to closing time on this discussion - let's go for one more day and then tomorrow we will be closing out butterflies till the May 16 when another subject will be discussed on Curious Minds...I will come back in either tonight or in the morning and sum up for us...this has been a delight...just what I needed with all the news on TV so bleak...

For not seeing this discussion until now. I do love butterfies!! I get upset when "they" are spraying to destroy mosquitos because it does kill butterflies. I live in an apartment and don't have a garden of my own but a few days ago I was visiting and area that does have a butterfly garden. Maybe it is the wrong time of the year, but I didn't see any. Actually this is the season for brush fires in our area so I suppose that could have an effect.

Louise,
The best hour for seeing Florida butterflies, especially in spring and fall, is in the morning
when the butterflies wake up!
This is not at dawn, like for some birds. It's later, when the sun rises and the flowers warm up. In Boca Raton, right now, it's between 9:30 and 10:30 a.m. Our garden at club has been wonderful recently, and we aren't that far from Miami.

If you go to a butterfly garden at high noon, they might all be hidden and (I would guess) sleepy. No scientific references for this, just personal observations over many years.

In the northern states, in later spring, just adjust for the sun time and watch for these jewels of the air!

Louise why not plant a window sill box or even a flower pot on your window sill with a butterfly attracting plant - maybe some rosemary or lantana which does well in the hot sun.

Louise you could pull a surprise on the city - there is a site above where you can get milkweed seeds for a donation of $1 - why not get some and plant them near a a school yard fence or in an area of a park that does not regularly get mowed - or stop off at your local fire station and see if the fireman would be willing to plant them around the fire house. You could have fun with it...

I just now saw this discussion. And I wanted to add: I always allow milkweed to grow in my yard as the monarchs bflys love it. Well, a neighbor two houses away came and chewed me out for letting those "weeds" grow and then they spread their seeds by floating on the wind. I told her that was too bad but I was attracting monarch bflys which is important. One day after that she threw an armload of milkweed plants over my back gate. I knew it was her because no one else cares one way or another. Marj

MarjV glad you found us - question - you say allow milkweed to grow - what is the downside of milkweed growing in your yard?

Barbara, I'd guess some people only see the "weed" part of that - and just want perfect green sterile grass.

Oh...growing on a fence it is quite lovely I think with flowers and then those magnificent pods in the fall that can be used for all sorts of craft work...to each his own I guess...thanks Mary...never would have guessed.

We are definitely not "lawn people". We used to have all the lovely early spring wildflowers (weeds) in our yard - henbit, spring beauties, dandelions, etc. I always told John he couldn't mow until the flowers had stopped blooming - and he was always ready to oblige and wait as long as he possibly could before he had to start mowing.

Barbara- the downside is that it is a weed. If you are a meticulous grass person you don't want any kind of weed. Just as Mary Z posted

http://www.monarchwatch.org/

Magnificent site on Monarchs Marj - go lost in it for nearly an hour - thanks for sharing - I like the kit they speak about - only $16 - I wish they listed what was in the kit because if it includes seeds or plants to things the deer eat than it is a waste of my money - I suppose I could e-mail them and ask...

Yup! e-mail them. Their goal is education so I'm sure they'd answer.

Well this was lovely folks but it is time to end this Curious Minds - thanks it was a delight...

Thanks so much, Barbara - it was great fun, and I learned a lot.

CURIOUS MINDS

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews. Every month we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion.

From infancy on mothers “shape the platform” from which sons will be launching their adult life. There is too much evidence that mothers have been instrumental in the rise of great men in history to ignore the fact that they had first learned to aim for high goals on their mother’s knees.

How different is it raising sons from what it was half a century ago?

Do working mothers today have a more positive influence on their children than before when mothers stayed at home?

A whole generation of people will have spent their early childhood in Day Care, is there a way to know what will the consequence be for the future?

Do boys today know more about what is in store for them because of television?

What are grandmothers’ responsibilities with regard to the psychological development of their grandchildren?

When should we step in and when should we button up?

I invite mothers to share in their experience of raising sons and sons to talk about the influence their mother had in the course of their life. In fact everybody is invited to give their views on Mothers and Sons.

Links: Biography of Rose Kennedy

Churchill's Mother, Jennie Jerome

Mothers and Sons

The Women Who Shaped the Presidents

Discussion Leader: Eloise

Welcome to the discussion Mothers and Sons. By ‘sons’ I didn’t mean to exclude daughters, but for now we will try to focus on ‘sons’ to bring out how their mother impacted their lives.

Please give us your views candidly whether you have sons or not and I hope men will bring their own recollection of their relationship with their own mother too. I have two sons and I find it hard to answer some of my own questions, but together we might be able to shed a true light on the matter.

Let us begin then, I am excited by what I will learn in discussing this with you.

Éloïse

Good Morning everybody.

"Do mothers know how much influence they have on the psychological development of their children?"

When I was expecting a baby, this was not something that was uppermost in my mind, it only started to concern me a two or three years later on when I became more mature.

Éloïse

Since being in Senior Net I have shared from time to time the influence my mother had on me. She died when I was nine years old and my father died when I was in my fifties, yet her influence was enormous compared to his. He taught me many things but she helped me to extend myself and to learn on my own -- much like that proverb which says rather than giving a man a fish, it is better to teach him how to fish.
It may sound a bit like an exaggeration but I have stood in front of large gatherings and have said that "if I have accomplished anything at all, if I am anything at all, it is due to my mother." She lives constantly within me and for this I am eternally grateful.

Robby

ROBBY: What a nice tribute to your Mother!

ELOISE: I don't think I paid any attention to the psychological development of my children when I was raising them. I wish I could say, as you did, that it was only a couple of years after they were born before their psychological development came to my attention. I was very proud of them both (a girl and a boy) and thought they "could do no wrong." I was most upset if someone criticized them for almost anything.

she is fifty and my son is fifty two. both please me mightily and I do take credit. I was thinking about what a boy baby would need from me from the start and wondered if I'd know. After all I was a twenty five year old woman with no experience with little boys and a background as a childhood tom boy. would I mess it up as a mother, a woman. I invited my son to come here and either lurk or participate. we are close via the telephone since he lives in Canada and I live in California.

This will be very interesting t me and for a change I feel adequate to participate.

Claire

As the mother of one son and two daughters, I can say a few things:
The education of all 3 kids was paramount. We were prepared to scrape if need be to send them to private school. We were prepared to do whatever we could to increase our own earning power to pay for a fine college education for all three.

I can say with pride that all the kids sailed through high school and college and made us proud of them.
No drugs, no worries about relationships with the wrong crowd, and no flunked courses.

However, my son turned out to be uninterested in more education beyond college. He has a wonderful career, but I worry, to this day, if he should get another degree. (Note, I'm not being too specific here because anyone can read this, and privacy is of paramount concern, regarding my kids.)
The girls, so my delight, did go on for advanced degrees.

Do mothers know how much influence they have on the psychological development of their children?

I doubt it while they are raising their babies or even when they are older - seeing that they are healthy, well fed, warm, educated and most of all they are part of a family with good feelings also getting done what is expected in society so they can have a good life seems to me to be the influence mothers want to make.

Are boys oblivious of their mother’s ambition for them until they grow up?

Hmmm I cannot say I had any ambition for them - I wanted them to feel free to determine their own ambitions.

How much do boys retain of what their mother says in the course of a day?

Oh dear - who knows - what I have noticed that surprised me is how many family traditions around holidays my sons introduced into their adult lives that are now influencing my grandsons

Do mothers want a higher education for their sons than the one they have received themselves?

Yes, but then I come from a family whose mantra was that each generation should do better than the preceding generation.

Between mother and father, which one is most likely responsible for teaching moral values to the children?

I would say both and include in there TV, Church, School and the early friends of our children. By the time they are High School I think they have most of their moral values down.

Are mothers conscious of treating sons differently from daughters? Are they?

Well I know I did - I expected them to learn things from their Dad that I did not expect my daughter to spend time learning and since my children were children of the 50s my daughter learned to sew and cook etc. Although I did teach my sons to cook and iron their own shirts as well as clean up their rooms. But most of their choirs were either outside or things like emptying the trash and not dusting which my daughter had on her choir list.

They all three took piano for at least one year before they decided if they wanted to continue - my eldest continued for 5 years and then when he was not practicing I called a halt - as a teen when he earned money he took up piano again paying for his own lessons.

Do mothers still think her son's formal education is more important than her daughter’s?

Good Grief I hope not - I do know that was still the thinking of my generation but even I knew better for my own children - two boys and a girl...

We often read about the influence a father has on his son, but seldom do we read about how a son has been influenced by his mother. Does it mean that she did not have as much influence on him as his father?

No - I think father's influence is learning how to mix in the man's world - I don't like it but I must admit now that my grands are teens that they need the harsher voice of a man at times - with that harsh voice a hierarchy of power is established and like it or not that is the way of society.

I must say though my youngest who has three boys ages 16 and 15 [twins] while they were young till about three years ago he never ever scolded them without kissing them on the head - it was beautiful for me to see and where he got it I do not know because that was not the experience he had with his own father. But then he was right there as they were born and so involved in their care he was a very different Dad. My eldest son has no children and my son-in-law is not as involved with their two boys However he seems to show authority without using a loud voice either.

I could go deeper into each of those questions but that was a quicky of how I feel...thanks...never put it in words before this.

Sons and Mothers. I had five brothers and was an only girl , Two sons and two daughters in my immediate family so I am trying to look for special events here,

I know my brothers loved our father but it was mom whom they adored right to the end of her life. Since she was always encouraging to me I feel she was to my brothers as well, She really made us all feel special..our birthdays were remembered with special meals and desserts and she always took pride in our efforts. So I know she influenced my brothers to be the best they could be as she did myself.

My own husband loved his mother and like my brothers cherished her all of her life. He was a very special human and I always thanked her for raising him to be so.Of course we did have a bit of competition but she did such a wonderful job he was fair to both of us. I know he also influenced our children even though he was a pilot in the USAF and was away a great deal of time.

Since I was home most with the children I think my influence was a bit greater only because of the fact I was home..But since my husband supported me in all I did I cant take too much credit for the wonderful people they are, We shared their lives and encouraged them to be readers, thinkers, helped them to be normal but with the special qualities we would want them to have. To be honest, no drugs, not even smoking for all and only social drinking .They found their own niche and are successful in thier jobs and in their families.I think the best thing my mother and I did was to allow the children in the family enough freedom so they never felt restricted<responsible yes) and enough encouragement to become successful not just in thier jobs but as human beings, I know I did a good job when they ask me how to handle a problem with thier children .>The Ultimate compliment..anna

Welcome everyone, I am so glad that you wanted to share something on this subject. This way I can see different experiences with raising sons than I had. It seems to me that most parents, perhaps especially mothers, wanted our sons to go as far as possible in their education even at the cost of great sacrifices.

Marjorie, thank you for this beautiful heading.

Then there are sons-in-law to think about who bring another element in the picture with their own up bringing. Barbara, I guess that the ball is in your son’s court now because your daughter-in-law will bring her own background in raising her children. Still you son will will transmit some of what he learnt at home to his boys don’t you think?

I was always a strong advocate of a high education for all my children, but I noticed too Mippy that my girls were much better in school than my boys and one of my sons still wants to study for another degree.

Claire, for a long time my children heard about my involvement in Seniornet and I have talked about it often and they said at first, “not for me I have no time”, but when they finally did come in, two of them now are regular posters. Even I was surprised they did at first but they love Seniornet.

My boys were also responsible for house chores like dishes and vacuuming. Each child had a task. They were teenagers when their father died in an accident, but they all continued to pursue their own goals, not necessarily the ones I had hope for.

Anna, when you show love to children, does anything else matter?

Éloïse

but they seem to have worked for us. At least all the posts so far a positive. to sum up.

education: a must to function in our culture so yes it was important and we supported both kids when they needed it while earning their advanced degrees and getting started on their own. son a masters daughter a phd. .

<P.I had the most influence on their internal growth their father on the externals. my daughter was taught to change the oil on her car etc by her father and my son was encouraged to be androgenous...to let his emotions be felt and contribute to his relationships. . easy to be long winded here. I'll quit now. . . Claire

Claire, so far everything is fine you mean? all our sons have turned out wonderfully well. I am not so sure about that myself.

Today I talked with a woman who takes the same course as me and I asked her this question: "Do mothers know how much influence they have on the psychological development of their children?" and she immediately became very animated and excited. She said:

Her father-in-law was an engineer and so is her husband and when she got married her mother-in-law, who was the true matriarch of the family wanted her grandson to become an engineer also. As her son was growing all he heard was that there is no better choice of career in life than engineering. She could not go against all these people and her son wanted to do what his father was doing.

She asked him lately if he was happy to have chosen that profession and he said now he would rather have studied Liberal Arts, but engineering is what was expected of him and he took it up not to disappoint his father and grandparents. What he had heard at home had become like a mantra to him.

One thing I've noticed about all four of my sons - they have all chosen girls just like dear old mom. One DIL tells my son that all the time - you married your mother. What do they have in common - my daughters-in-law? They are all organizers. I won't say they are controlling because, well, just because. Maybe I'm being defensive here, but when you have four boys, there is the "pack mentality" you have to stay on top of. There is a certain comfort zone my sons like - knowing that certain things will be taken care of -

Eloise, I'm thinking now about the careers the "boys" have chosen. Their dad was a lawyer. The older two chose law. The second one hates it. The younger two did not, maybe they felt less pressure - coming from somewhere. (not me - I just wanted them to be happy - honest!)

In my life when I was young and in my husband's as he was growing up I can see how our fathers influenced the boys and how my husband influenced our sons..and indirectly our daughters.

My father and my husbands father were men who respected women and appreciated them if nothing else I can see now how that influenced my brothers and my husband.

In many ways I think my mother, my mother in law and eventually myself influenced in differents ways. All these men valued the opinion of the women in their lives and my brothers , my husband and now my sons do the same. They are caring and I have to say they emulate thier father in that way as did my brothers with their wives.

My brothers, my husband and my sons were taught to do housework and of course when you marry someone who helps around the house you have to be happier ..My mother was ill for a long time, and we had Aunt Annie a wonderful Irish lady who helped around the house, my mother in law always had help and I did too,.But the men helped as well , I dont think any of my brothers, my husband or my sons feel that some things are "women's" work since they did it all, I can recall my mother saying how my father would come home and help change the babies diapers and I know when I was old enough all the little things he did to show us Mother was special ..I know my DIL's always tell me how much help my sons are and one thing I have noticed , my husband showed his appreciation by giving me a lot of jewelery and I see that in my sons. They are thoughtful that way and it makes my DILS happy ..

I guess what I am trying to figure out do mothers who push thier sons to be something special . are missing something in their relationships with their fathers or husbands. Will have to give that some thought .anna

They knew what it was because I told them often enough. I wanted us to be able to like each other as adults. I considered love a given and didn't ask for it,There was plenty of that without making a point of it. We did express it often "I love you" is easy to say when you practise. I wanted an on going relationship with them as adults. . . and I got it.

I had to respect them as individuals from babyhood on while performing my function of protection, support and guidance until they were grown. They also understood that my CONTROL was for this purpose and that they would outgrow the need for it.

I didn't want to be an old lady who's kids turned the tables and attempted to parent me in a way I wouldn't like. They were taught by example how to do it well. . . . Claire

Anna:-You spoke of "mothers who push their sons." There is push and there is push. As I look back, I don't have the feeling of someone who never got off my back. Through my genes (no credit to me) I had the mental ability in various areas to succeed. She saw opportunities for me to move ahead and lightly suggested them. There was the possibility for a local airport to open up and the local newspaper conducted an essay contest.
Somehow I found myself at the age of seven writing and submitting one. The newspaper had no idea of the participants' ages and I found myself with an Honorable Mention. Again my mother saw an opportunity and wrote a letter to the newspaper pointing out that the winners were all adult and mentioning my age. Of course I was proud and at no time had my mother "pushed" me.

Robby

Ah your mother did not push you ,,nor did I push my sons ..I suggested, encouraged and let them know they were special. Your mother sounds like that and I am sure she was ...my thinking was there are mothers who "push', they have dreams and they see an opportunity with their sons to fullfil them.

The question I was asking or thinking about..if the father and the husband are disappointments to the wife and mother would she then "push" her son, For Mothers day a beloved niece of mine sent me a mother's day card. They have one son and she wanted him to be a lawyer ..He is in law school and she tells me he loves it. But I know this young man and I wonder ..somewhere down the line will he say I wish I had followed another path.

And I think from her card she "pushed" her son because her father , my brother said when her son was young , with his Irish gift of gab he would make a good lawyer.Her son was only 4 when my brother died and I know she admired, loved and respected her father..I am just thinking are there hidden reasons why we encourage our children. In your field Robby would you thnk that might be possible? anna

This discussion about "push" and "encourage" reminds me of something my mother told me about my uncle and my grandmother. My grandparents raised three sons and four daughters.

When the middle son, my uncle Truman, came home from fighting World War I and was preparing to head off to state U, my grandmother said to him, "Now don't you spend a lot of time worrying about your grades. If you don't make good grades and you want to come home, that's okay." He later told my mother that those words made him feel so good. He had been away from school for so long he didn't know if he could do it or not. He did finish his education, went back into the military and retired with the rank of Lt. General. My grandmother knew her boy.

more like support for my son and definitely a push for my daughter. I wanted her to be self sufficient in something she liked because I was stuck in a lousy marriage and art doesn't support anyone very well. She likes what she's doing. She has a phd in clinical psychology but ended up being a research scientist in same and likes that. She says that she's taken care of people for so long she is no longer interested in clinical.

My son specialized in communications when it was new, worked for the telephone company and for a large computer organization living in Los angeles until he was laid of with 999others.

At that time he had been married briefly, a mistake, and was living with a woman who later became his wife. already a partner they had bought the duplex where they lived but wanted to leave the city. . . so they took off for Canada and ended up on Texada Island in the Malapina straits.

I mention the location because after many false starts they are in the real estate business and have a site on line. Tom, ever the journalist has an ongoing journal which tells you more about him and his wife and their life style than I ever could. She has an arrested case of MS so there are no grandchildren . . . but Tom treats Rocky his dog as if he were a teenager. it's almost funny. he's firm,demanding and very loving and kind most of the time but like his father a bit of a control freak. enough of that. . . . Here is their site

TEXADA ISLAND

and THE JOURNAL

claire

This is an interesting subject. I've just skimmed through because we're out of town, and today is the first day I've been able to check in.

On the other hand, I was one of two sisters, my father died when I was 13, and my mother was one of three sisters. John and I have four daughters. Obviously, I have had VERY little experience with males in general, and none with male children. I'm sure I'll be chiming in from time to time after we get home on Saturday.

Have fun!

From infancy on mothers “shape the platform” from which sons will be launching their adult life. The dreams she has for herself she instinctively talks about them to her small children.

The conversation between adults at the dinner table is something children will remember for a long time. Some things will stay imprinted in their minds forever. My own children tell me about something I said when they were small and I am surprised that it stayed in their memory for so long.

If the father is a musician as an example and he plays in an orchestra, it is certain that the children will hear about music, musical instruments and he will attend concerts besides listening to practices at home.

If Joan’s husband had not been a lawyer, the children might never have had the desire to become lawyers as he shared things about his work at the dinner table.

From the link ”The women who shaped the Presidents”

”Presidents are born, not made, right? On the contrary, claims Angelo, a veteran Time correspondent, who makes it clear that it's the cut of the apron and the strength of its strings that turn a son into a president.”

Sigmund Freud said: ”A man who has been the undisputed favorite of his mother keeps for life the feeling of a conqueror, that confidence of success that often induces real success.”

Robby, you were an only child and your mother showed you to have high goals. Had you been the eldest of 10 children, it would have been entirely different don’t you think?

At that time, it was unusual that men helped around the house as Anna pointed out about her husband and her sons. It shows caring and the wives appreciated it I am sure.

Claire, I like what you said: ”I wanted us to be able to like each other as adults.” Many times when my kids were teenagers, I was wondering if they would still like me when they were older. But yes, they do even if I was kinda strict and took out the big stick sometimes.

MaryZ, Perhaps John, your husband said something about his growing up, I knew somebody who had six daughters and no sons. My daughter married a man who has 6 brothers and 5 sisters. I often ask him about how his mother coped with 12 children. Today they are all very successful in their career.

Pedln, my own grandson is the apple of my eye too.

Éloïse

SCHOOL FOR CRIMINALS

Child abuse can take several forms.

Mary Z says she has had little experience with males in general. I can say that I had little experience with females.
As Eloise says, I was an only child and had no brothers or sisters. My mother died when I was nine. I often visited my father's family where he had five brothers. After my mother's death, it was a male-dominated family. I grew up knowing nothing about the importance of lipstick and high heels, about that certain time of the month, about the anxiety of a girl waiting for the boy to knock at the door, about the fears of pregnancy, about the softness of the female compared to the often macho male.
Simply said, I did not know how to "handle" a female. (I know I'm going to get comments about this!) My mother had taught me courtesy and consideration and that remained with me but that certain way of relating with a woman, I knew nothing about. It came (or did not come) with experience. I was probably not the best husband material. PUtting it another way, I didn't understand women. (And I know that this remark can lead to many postings.)

Robby

Aha Robbie so you are not a sensitive new age male! Definately from Mars!

My sons were very dependant on me until they got wives. Not in the sense of me doing their laundry etc because they are both very capable in the house and very capable with child care. The eldest son would phone me from all over the world sometimes daily for moral support and liked to discuss all major decisions with me.

The youngest one before he was married would appear on my doorstep every time he became ill with flu or any other malady and stagger into the spare room where he would remain for Mum to nurse him until he was better when he would disappear to live his very active life until the next flu bug. I would know what was up when I saw a very pathetic figure wending his way up my drive.

I think boys do have a very close relationship with their mums until they marry. They seem to then require the mothering from their wives and we take a back seat. (Thank goodness really!) I have discussed this mum/son relationship with friends who in the main have had the same experience.

There is an old saying. A son is a son til he takes a wife but your daughter is your daughter all her life.

Carolyn

Claire, The link of Texada where you son lives is like the small town where my children were born and raised, with the lake and the mountains, just lovely area. I think you have pointed out the most important thing that makes a marriage fail, you said. “like his father a bit of a control freak.” Why on earth do half the men think that women need to be controlled or advised about the most ordinary things like how and what to think, etc. etc.

The best marriages I have ever seen are those where a man gives his wife ‘freedom’ to be herself. Women need that feeling to function properly. I heard a friend say to her partner when he asked her what she was looking for in the cupboard, she said to him: “Don’t watch me when you watch what I do, I don’t feel free”. I guess he had always been watching and commenting on her actions.

Robby, you say “I did not know how to “handle” a female”. Why do you think that women need “handling”? Do you mean that you don’t know how to make a woman feel like an equal perhaps?

Carolyn, how right you are. I was at a friend’s house one day and I heard her 19 year-old son call her several times after he went to bed, she finally got up to go to his room. Her husband lifted his eyes upward and I asked him “what’s the matter?”, he said he needs his mum to tuck him in every night. I laughed, but so what, my own grandson still needs to be tucked in at 12 years old.

Just found this and am interested since I am the mother of sons and the Grandmother of both a girl and boy. I agree that until sons marry, they tend to call and depend on Mom and then it goes away as they have their wives. As a matter of fact, I first realized that something was wrong with our older sons marriage when he started calling and dropping by ( lived two hours away, so this was startling). Sure enough he was soon divorced and so the cycle started over. Now he is happily remarried and is independent. I do think that boys look to their Mom for a number of things. Our older son was much more of a Daddy's boy, but my younger son and I share the same sense of humor and ability to hide in a good book. The Granddaughter is the miracle to me. Oh how different than my sons or grandson or even myself ( I was a tomboy big time). She is so feminine and girly and pinks and lavenders and makeup ( at 9??) and general softness and gentleness. REally different.

Stephanie - Had one son turn up on my doorstep with a suitcase last year. In my opinion he is not valued in the marriage for the wonderful provider and father he is. He loves his kids so after a cooling off period off he went home. I have to button my lips about this relationship! However I love and respect my other DIL very much so one out of two is not half bad,

Actually I feel very humble that my kids always turn to me in times of trouble and know they can tell me about marriage ups and downs and I don't hold an account of any of it no matter the rights and wrongs of the situation.

My philosophy about DILs is to take a neutral position about the relationship they have with your child, that way you get to keep your son.

carolyn

A good mother will send out a good husband and father into the world.

Carolyn

Carolyn you bring up a very good point - I was mulling it over and was having problems with the concept that mother's take on too much guilt for the behavior of our children - I know that we can swell with pride when they do well but, when they do well, we do not base all their success on our mothering - then it hit me - we have no measuring rod for our efforts as a mother - in any other job there is a way to measure how well you are doing but for a mother there are all these platitudes however, little that outlines for her if she does this or that she can expect success.

Oh for the physical needs, yes...but we are talking about helping a child establish a set of moral values, learning how to love, learning how to relate to first the family and than all those in society, men and women, as well as the child's emotional needs and how to handle their emotions.

Not only is this a tall order but there are so many factors that are not in the mother's control that she is trying to come in and shore up the child. Mothering is not like building a successful car or even creating a piece of art that someone else wants enough to buy.

Nearly any other job you can think of has a way to measure weekly or monthly or at least yearly if the job is being carried out on focus. Plus that mother's do not have anyone that allows them to have a job review. Oh there are some controlling husbands who not only would like the job of review manager but, think they can do the job better and if the mother would just do it as they suggest, which is most often doing things that make life convenient for them, than the mother in his eyes would be successful regardless of the child's future.

Motherhood is a job that to me is still shrouded in chance - mother's are not in control of the various events in a child's life nor are they in control of the other influences like the teachers and fellow students who also have a great influence on the child as they learn to socialize beyond their family. And then how much influence did the Dad have or the grandparents or anyone else that is a regular influence in the child's daily life. And yet, these influences can affect a child so that if the child does not handle them as society prefers it is blamed on the mother.

I am wondering just how much influence does a mother have and how much guilt and pride for our efforts is distinguishable - we have all experienced how in the same family with essentially the same style of mothering one child achieves wonders and another struggles through life. One day I would like to see all these pundits with their books and articles on how mother's should do their job get together and come up with one comprehensive guideline - but as fast as one writes a book on some aspect of motherhood another child, now grown, is sent off the prison or losses their job or cannot make a marriage work or...or...or and mother's all think, what did I do wrong...

Can't help it but I keep thinking of the mother who believed so in her country and the honor it was to serve her country so that she encourages her son to serve with such pride and then, as we saw in the movie, her world was turned upside down when her son was killed - she may have outwardly been blaming the president but we could all feel the pain and know she was blaming herself for putting value in an activity that risked her son's life and both he and she lost.

I started out clinging to Spock and Gessell, added THE PROPHET whose wise words really helped me set my course. "Your children are only loaned to you". And decided that my job was simply to keep them alive and well and give them an environment in which they could grow and become independent. For the most part they are. My son doesn't CLING. during the end of his first marriage He and I talked a bit but infrequently. This MOM get's due attention from her kids but as for still having to play the mommy role -- I'm emancipated. . . . Claire

Spock in his old age said he made a mistake and promoted a generation of kids who got out of control. We did not do Spock in our house.

I don't mind being a listener for my kids, I wish I had had parental support many times in my life. My children are financially independant ( very well off) so I just have the emotional support at times to provide. It is not an burden as its not a frequent happening.

I think mothers do have a profound effect on sons. Its our job to inject that bit of softness into the masculine personality and to enable them to have enough domestic skills as to not be a hinderance to their wives when they get them.

Many a soldier calls for their mother as they lie dying. I have heard that many times from medics in the Military. So we must be quite important to our sons.

Carolyn

What a perfect day to start a subject so special to me. May 16th was my 73rd birthday and my son's first wedding anniversary. Just before I came to the computer, my doorbell rang. It was UPS. At the same time there was my son coming down the stairs.

You see, we have lived in the same six flat for almost a year and since our last names are the same, often both our doorbells get rung..Having me in the same building was his and my precious DIL's idea. Their being married on my birthday was much the same. I had been married on my mother's birthday and, as it worked out. May 16th was the perfect choice for their wedding..They are both romantics and had just about come to the conclusion they would never find the right person when, lo and behold, it happened. My son was 40, my DIL is now 35.

My son was 10 when his father died. He's an only child and so am I. At 18, when he started college, he moved out. Several years later, he was forced to move back home. His roommate couldn't come up with his share of their rent and I could no longer help them financially. About four months later, my son looked at me and said,"Mother, this is culture shock". Off he went and we both agreed he wouldn't bounce back and forth..

At 27, he had surgery for Krohn's disease. He didn't come home for mommy to care of him. When he was discharged, he returned to his apartment and his roomate of several years. The two guys lived in a third floor apartment in the very same six-flat he and his bride now occupy and I have a first floor apartment. His old roommate was his best man.

In 2002, I was hospitalized with west Nile and my son was there every day for two weeks. He then proceeded to put my old house up for sale and find me a place in his neighborhood.

I believe deep in my heart that he was rewarded for all his caring by finding the perfect woman for him, a lovely brilliant young doctor, newly arrived from the UK.

We have a healthy relationship. Some weeks we don't even see each other, we just email. There is a framed photo taken on their wedding day near my computer. I smile when I glance at it.

(there's so much more, I'll save it for another day)

KIWI: you can tell how well I'm doing, can't you?

But what happened when they were little? I mean what did you read to them? What did the boys like in story books, my boys and grandsons loved anything to do with a conflict Robin Hood and the girls loved Snow White, Cinderella. I am quite sure I never read just a boys book for them and another for my girls because they were all interested in the story I read to them and I didn't even think of influencing them in one way or another.

What I remember doing is try to give them an open mind about everything and everybody. To be curious and to learn well. Schooling was primordial, but I didn't help them with their homework after the 4th grade.

We certainly didn't expect boys to only play with boy toys and vice versa. All the toys were out for anyone to play with and sometimes the boys would play house and the girls with trucks. I didn't have time to play with them as I didn't have all the electrical appliances women have today.

I would like to know if anyone remembers what they talked about with their small children, before they were 6. I remember when television started in the fifties. There was programming only 3 hours a day then and one hour for children's programs before 6 o'clock. My children all remember them.

What about television? Is it going to be the nurturer in the future? Is this good? What about physical contact, interaction, distorted situations? How to get along with their peers?

Éloïse

We talked about lots of things when the boys were little. I read to them and belonged to a library although with no car and out in a new suburb the trip to the library was a massive undertaking. I took them to a parent/child preschool where parents were educated in early childhood behaviour and participated with their children in all activities. I completed the full course. The system they had their preschool education with did not put kids in sexist roles - quite revolutionary for the day. Boys played with prams and dolls and girls with cars and trucks.

I taught my adopted son to read. He came to live with us at age 7 and I was horrified to find out he could not read. He had no interest in learning. Even now he only reads non fiction - mainly books related to his business. He is however glad that I quickly got him on track. He did well at school.

During the years they were sitting their outside examinations TV was banned from the house although for a treat we hired a video machine and had a couple of movies on Saturday nights. We spent many days from daylight to dusk with the children, hiking at the wilderness beaches, fishing off the rocks, surfing and swimming. We had a pool for them at home too so they were proficient swimmers and all love the water. My husbands hobby was restoration of classic boats so we had boating holidays when they were older.

My kids did lots of craft work as there was no TV. One daughter does arty stuff and the other one is a wonderful dressmaker and can make a suit as good as any you will find in a designer boutique. She took a design and dressmaking course at night school when she first began work to further her hobby. For one important dinner a couple of years ago she drafted a pattern from a picture of one of the Italian designers creations and wore a glamorous black number that she had made on the night.

The boys did carpentry work with their father and one son is a designer builder much in demand. He does everything from town planning to designing and drafting the plans and then building the houses. He lives in his fourth home that he has designed and built and at present is working on high class property development.

My boys are both excellent parents - so good that their spouses can go off for a yearly overseas holiday to recharge their batteries and the boys can do everything a mother could do for their children. They take full charge of the household while their wives are away. They have cared for their babies from the time they came home from the hospital. I am really proud of them for that. One of my sons always does the night feeds.

The boys can both cook and my eldest son often did dinner parties in his home when he was single. When my late husband was undergoing his cancer treatment Matt would cook a special dinner for us on Sundays and turn on his spa and Rod and I would go up for dinner and enjoy a spa under the stars and listen to very nice piped music while we forgot our worries for a little while.

I talked to the boys about having respect for the girls they dated. I can remember Matt saying to me when he was about 19. I am going to marry a girl just like you and Auntie Jenny. A hard worker who will be a helpmate to me not a liability. He did do this and married a girl who turned out to be very dear to me indeed.

There was one thing I said to my sons. (Because abuse happens in the most respected families). If I ever find out you have raised a hand in anger to the woman you marry I will take in your wife and you will be banned from my home. They never forgot that. It was one thing I was adamant about that they should never take out their anger or frustration on another human being or animal for that matter. I would tell them to walk out rather than get to that stage if they ever felt they could lose control.

I was not a perfect mother but I did do the best I could with the knowledge I possessed at the time.

carolyn

My older son was playing the piano at age 6, having been in his first recital at age 5. He is an unemployed classical organist, working as a computer programmer.

Reading at bedtime was a ritual. It was the one way I could quiet my younger son, who was hyperactive and would have been diagnosed with ADHD in this day and age. He has a good job in corporate sales with Hewlett-Packard .

Since we were farmers, both boys and my 2 daughters all had daily chores, and I think this gave them a good work ethic. School homework was done on the kitchen table and the boys often help the girls. They learned to drive early and were good help moving machinery between farms.

A funny here: Joe, 10 years old was small for his age and had to stand up to drive the John Deere A to town to get a load of feed ground. From the back of the tractor you could barely see him. The state police came upon him and follow him into the grain elevator and was ready to give him a citation until the elevator manager vouched for his ability. A license was not necessary to drive a tractor. After that, we bolted a box to the platform so he appeared taller.

All four were given a choice of career and education. They could do anything they wanted after they went to college and got a 4 year degree. Scholarships and student loans saw them through.

In closing I have 6 grandsons (ages 8 - 22) and 1 granddaughter (age 16), no greats yet (thank goodness -- none are married.)

every morning we watched the Micky mouse club followed by a nature program and that was it for the day for them. school aged and previously

they were read to as little ones. cat in the hat etc. at three Tom could recite the entire TRACTOR book. . turning the pages, looking at the pictures and reciting what was on them almost as if he were reading. a great memorty even to this day. Laura could print out her name at four but was not able to learn to read by sounding out. I worked with her and found another approach thanks to my psych classes and my understanding of the FERNALD approach. she's a constant reader to this day. both kids are.

Her birthday is May 16th too. . . a Taures. . . if it means anything.

One year einstead of presents I took her to a used book shop and she left with seven used books that she had selected herself

Oh my reading - we read everything - from the time my oldest was 4 and my daughter only 10 months younger we walked to the Library every week - they did watch the Captain in the morning while I bustled around getting the kitchen in order and the laundry going but while they were younger we didn't put the TV on till they went to bed except on Friday night when it was just me and the kids [bowling night] and they could have a soda pop and we watched TV as well as on Sunday night when Disney had a show on every Sunday night.

Later when my youngest was born my eldest had started school followed the next year by my daughter - Paul came with me where ever I went and would not stay in any childcare that was set up during the meetings - he was so good and played with a few toys at my feet - but he was also severely dyslexic - not much known about it then but we were fortunate.

We happened to be living in a neighborhood where our State Senator lived and he had two boys who were also dyslexic - and so he had enough clout to get these children to attend regular classes with one class at the end of the day to go over what they learned to be sure they understood - except for his ability to get this one school to do things differently the boys would have been put in a class for the mentally disabled - in fact that was one of the hardest things I ever did - in order to get the extra tutoring Paul needed I had to sign a paper saying he was mentally deficient - I cried and cried because I knew it wasn't true - in fact part of his testing included an IQ and he scored high. If I remember his was 120 because my other son was 130.

All to say he learned differently and by then there were tape recorders that we urged his teachers to allow him to give a book report spoken on a tape - to this day he is into all the electronics but doesn't have a background in Literature although he is very proud of himself when he does read a book which is about twice a year. He always seems to slip it into the conversation. Today he has a wonderful job and is still married to his Jr. High Sweetheart - they sorta grew up together...

Kinesthitic by touch which was taught at the Fernald school and part of my psych major The girl I worked with was sixteen and with a high IQ but afraid to use her adult vocabulary. She would make up her story which she wrote out using very simple words and sentences. my job was to teach her how to use the other ones she knew and to give her the confidence to do so. I worked with her for half a semester and she did very well. It was a greet satisfaction for me to see this happen so when Laura turned out to be dyslexic...no word for it at that time I found that she could remember a word by its shape so that if I drew a box around it, isolated it she'd remember it. I don't know how this translated into regular reading skills but it did. She would make up words. . .a favorite of mine being reservative a combinationof RESERVED and CONSERVATIVE. now she writes reports and does data anaylsis easily as a research scientist . . .something magical happened. . . . . Claire

Winsum I have heard in recent years that the Dyslexic person can understand 3D easily - that if a child is given a block in the shape of a letter rather than a square block with a letter raised on the side the child will learn the letter - they say that dyslexic people make great engineers, computer nerds and anything that a flat drawing is defining a 3D space that in order to draw or see it in your head you need to be able to visualize 3D - so it sounds like you hit on just the right way to teach your little one how to read...wonderful for you...

I began reading to my son when he was a baby. I'd been a first grade teacher and had a gaggle of Golden Books.I don't remember doing any of the classics, but as soon as a child could print he name, he could have his own library card. I guess he was four. The neighborhood branch of our library was near by and the librarians were neighbors.

I never taught him to read..that's such a great school experience. But we did puzzles..."find the hidden whatever" and there was Chutes and Ladders and "Candyland". Fourth and fifth grade, he was tranferred to the new Lab school in our district and had the best teacher for those two years before Jr. High.His teacher opened a world of books and read his class chapters each day of Huckleberry Finn, Narnia, Lord of the Rings. From there, there was no stopping him.

He still loves to read and writing came naturally.And now he has his accounts that he can work on from home.Bless computers!

He does the cooking and can take something I'd make when he was little create new ways of using the same basic recipe. he's a much better cook than I.

We're back home, but still getting caught up. All the posts have been so interesting.

Robbie, my husband as an adult is just the opposite. Here he was the only male in this houseful of females - we even had a female dog. He frequently complains about how pitiful he is (VBG). He also says it is impossible to "understand a female" - but he says it laughingly with love.

Carolyn, if a good mother turns her sons into good fathers and husbands, my MIL was a jewel! She really was a wonderful woman, and I loved her dearly. If only she'd been able to teach him to love vegetables.

My SIL Ian is the only male in a household of women including the dog! He often says he is outnumbered and outmanoeuvred.

I am sorry but I keep looking at the dark side of all this - all of us have had the wonderful luck to have boys that grew into fine men but there are a couple of MILLION men in Jail in the US alone as we sit here tonight.

I remember when my oldest was college age and got into a scrape so they held him overnight - when we went down to get him a long line of handcuffed prisoners passed us - I looked and was actually shocked - they looked gentle and nice - they were someone's son or brother or maybe even husband - what shocked me was I expected prisoners to look maybe scary or at least like someone if I saw the person on the street I would steer clear because I expected if you were bad enough to be in prison you must look bad.

A book I am reading now explains that 90% of murders are committed by men - they all had mothers and I cannot believe they all had a mother from hell.

We try to put our sons in contact with men, our husbands, fathers, brother who are our sons uncles, High School coaches, men school teachers, Boy Scout Leaders, Little League coaches - we arrange get-togethers with other boys our son's age - all so that boys learn how to be masculine and fit into the man's world.

This makes me wonder -- How do we define masculinity? How do our ideals regarding masculinity contribute to violent behavior in young boys? On the other hand, what do mothers offer that is helpful in assisting boys to grow into healthy and productive men assuming that the mother is not cruel or sadistic but is doing the best job she can?

This is most politically incorrect but kids need fathers! If they can't have fathers they need a positive male role model such as a good grandpa or Uncle.

There is too much selfishness around today where we have even educated single women saying "I must have a child" regardless of whether a father is involved to be part of the life of that child. Some are even getting fertility treatment to have the child. Children should not be regarded as a consumer item to gratify only our desires. They are people in their own right and deserve the very best.

There are times when its unavoidable to divorce where there is violence or substance abuse involved. However today I hear women and men saying. Oh I don't love her any more or we grew away from each other. WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS! Marriage is not gone into with the expectation of putting out all stops to make it work but rather with the expectation it will not work and a divorce will be possible. Celebrity marriages are not good role models for our young people either. Their idols often barely last 6 mths.

Carolyn

I love to read about mothers who thought books were the best things children can have to help them develop their curiosity and if anything can help put right what is wrong in their lives, it is a book. Children can escape in them, dream about the story, pretend, which is something that we all did, pretend that we lived in another world having other exciting things happening to us. It seems that we are all avid readers and transmitted that to our children.

Carolyn, I think your children had a wonderful life with a father and a mother who loved each other and gave them the best parenting they could ever have. Strong, loving direction in life and it is no wonder that they turned out well.

What about children whose mother or father is absent, or domineering, or uncaring? What if there is poverty, violence and alcoholism? What about when one parent is always sick? Are their children the only ones who go to jail, as Barbara was pointing out?

Wonderful what you did with this dyslexic child Claire. It is more common that I thought it was, I guess. Is dyslexia genetically transmitted?

I had to laugh Mary about your husband living in a house full of women. I asked my son-in-law once before my grandson was born: “How do you like being surrounded by women?” He said: “I love it, three generations of beautiful women.” I felt so loved even by a SIL. Hahahaha.

You are right Barbara, we talk like if all our children are as perfect as their mothers. Hahaha. Mind you now that my children are past their teen years, I can breathe. They all gave me a hard time at one time or another. Now I know at my age that not everything my children did was because of something I did wrong. I always talked to my children about their responsibilities, for their own successes and their own failures. If they made mistakes, it was theirs to deal with so they could learn from them. They did and they learned.

Éloïse

Regarding role models. My son was 10 years old when my husband and I separated. His father had always been a good role model, but was no longer living near us. I also have three daughters, so our household at that time was pretty feminine. As a single mom, working or in grad school, with four kids, and no other family nearby, there was not a lot of extra time to spend with just one child. My son was involved in Boy Scouts through high school, and I attribute so much to those men who spent time with him and made sure he was able to participate. I often thought to myself, "I'm so lucky. He's getting bigger than me and could rebel and be a real stinker." But he never did. Fought with his sisters, yes, but took on a lot of responsibility and we leaned on each other. He went to MIT on an NROTC scholarship and has a good job, a lovely wife and three children. Now it's fun to watch him be such a good father.

I have loved reading all about the sons here. I have two as well, but no girls. We read together from the time they were born. However I must say that our older son who is an engineer and very very scientific was funny. By Six, it had to be a true story. He had loved Winnie up to that point and Toad and Charlotte and Charlie and Willie Wonka,but at six,, Mom,, I only want true things. His brother was the opposite and we read two stories a night. One true and one not.. Then when our oldest was in high school, his very first girl friend was the daughter of a physics professor and a good friend. Jack managed to convince our Tim to read a little science fiction.. Dune.. and Arthur Clarke,, and then Hitchhiker. Lo and behold, our only true son fell in love with the science part of science fiction and read that for quite a long time. I was a volunteer as a quaker during viet nam. I worked in the draft resistance center in Philadelphia. We did get a wide variety of young males there and I will say there are a lot of women in th is world, who have babies and then promptly drop them off on anyone who will take them.. Some of the young males who had been in minor trouble were very sad when you talked to them. They were so hungry for a Mothering type of person. So , yes there are a lot of males in this world who have problems and a lot of it does stem from no mothering at all. I suspect this particular type of women does not do Senior net.

Eloise, you ask about children whose mother is uncaring. The link below, from today's local paper, is about a boy who was dreadfully abused as a child. His mother and her boyfriend were imprisoned, and he was sporadically raised by relatives in Germany and Yugoslavia. He is now a maintenance worker in Toronto and CBC (Canada) is documenting his ordeal.

Abused by mother, still cares for her

He and the TV team are in town to revisit the house where he was kept in the basement, and to try to banish some demons.

What amazes me is that at age 14 he chose to be reunited with his mother, in Canada.

The TV documentary will be shown in Canada, but probably not in the US.

As part of an on line writing group I wrote a story about my son and his relationship to my daughter and me. The ending is just fiction but most of the story is about the day the lights cam on for my son. The day he learned about the magic living between those two covers with the help of Mrs. Burns. . . his third grade teacher. My daughter had a fit when she read it. You can imagine why. . . here it is

an article in todays new york times.

Those Who Outgrow Foster Care Still Struggle, Study Finds By MONICA DAVEY Each year, some 20,000 youths who were once removed from their homes because of abuse or neglect leave the child welfare system because they get too old for it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/19/national/19child.html?th&emc=th

Claire

Pedln, sorry but the link wouldn't open for me.

Claire, Good writing. I understand why your daughter would be upset by the ending. But as you say, it is fiction.

Carolyn, unfortunately I feel that parenting today is replaced by mama Day Care or papa television.

Sometimes I wonder if it is possible to put too much emphasis on a boy until his siblings or peers call him "Mama's boy". When there are many children in the family, the youngest often get most of the attention. I was careful about that, but I still heard my grown children say I spoiled one over the others, not always the same one either.

Can mothers overprotect boys or make them over achievers? Can we love them too much, expect too much? How can we know what is too much? What are the warning signs?

Perhaps our Psychologist can answer those questions.

My ex-husband an elementary school teacher/principle thought I was getting too close to my son . . . that it was somehow unhealthy and age five had me stop giving him haircuts and took him off to that male bastion the BARBER SHOP. I never cut his hair again but his wife does now. He prefers it for financial reasons or did I get TOO CLOSE? (G)

Mothers can smother boys. I have the example in one of my DILs her first born has gone to school totally emotionally immature for his age ( teachers picked it up too) was unable to feed himself properly, she was still spooning food into his mouth at mealtimes! Could not cope with criticism ( never scolded). If my son ever intervened about table manners or any other sort of teaching there was an explosion in the house. The child was overweight and sugar loaded from never saying no to junk food.

This DIL is still a hinderance to her children and at danger of making them social pariahs. She comes from a privileged background but I think spent a lot of time with servants who indulged her ( she would kick up if they did not) and is still a very dominant personality with little self discipline.

My son threw all the junk food out of the pantry and had the kids eating nicely at the table when my DIL was on one of her overseas holidays with a friend. However within a month the pantry was full of junk food again. I think if she was not foreign born my son would not put up with all of this but he is scared stiff she will run overseas with his beloved kids if he insists to her Mummy and Daddy on the other side of the world.

I have no problems with the eldest child. Fortunately he has my sons lovely disposition so he will adapt to my strict rules. However when his mum appears on the scene he reverts to the immature behaviour. I have to keep my mouth shut too as I want to see my grandchildren. Luckily my son mostly brings the kids to me on his own so we have a nice visit.

Yes sons can be smothered!

Carolyn

includes some family stuff, pictures mostly

HERE

CLAIRE

To me, a "mama's boy" is a spoiled, overprotected person. Naturally discussions turn to the "mama's boy" remark when a mother and a son.are a family unit.

When I was teaching school, I was also "playroom supervisor" in an Adlerian group therapy project run by Dr. Rudolph Dreikurs. I think Dreikur's books are all out of print by now. He wrote "Children the Challenge" "Psychology in the Classroom", "Parents on the Run" among others. I have none of them anymore because we were always lending them out.

My primary job was to observe ths social behavior or sibling relationships in a play situation. My report on the family being counseled was part of the whole.evening's group discussions and suggested solutions.I learned many "do's " and "don'ts. that I used. at home

For some reason teachers and others immediately assume that an "only child", let alone an only child with a single mother is "not reared the same way" a child in a larger family is cared for.As far as I'm concerned, that's hogwash. In one teacher's conference when my son was in second grade, he had a ditsy little teacher. I can't remember how it came up in a parent-teacher conference, but she said accusingly"Perhaps you spend too much time with your son" I quickly gave her a picture of our family interaction. Her next thought was "well maybe you don't spend enough time with him" AAAggghhh!

I've heard of "smothering",but is there ever such a thing as "too much love".Exactly how much love is too much? Or are we suggesting a certain "intimacy" between mother and son? That's just plain sick!

I remember a grade school buddy who was the fifth and last child and the only boy...four big sisters. Do you think he would be more "smothered" or less? What do you consider "smothering"?

Smothering a child is making a child unheathily dependant on the mother. The kindest gift you can give children is to teach them to think for themselves and to have a level of independance which is appropriate to their age. To do less is to handicap the child.

I guess I cannot blame my DIL too much as she only repeats her parents mistakes. They come for almost six months of the year and live in my sons house, My DIL reverts to childhood and the parents treat her like a child not a woman who is heading up to 40yrs of age. That is what I call smothering!

Showing a child love is not smothering, Lots of kisses and hugs is not smothering but not allowing a child to grow as a person is smothering.

We aren't an extremely "tactile" family. Hugging and kissing ended early, but approval, complements, true admiration are things that should come naturally.

I had a friend who absolutely hated his parents. He told me noone outside the immediate household knew how verbally abusive mama was, but with other people around she was just lovey-dovey. It colored his whole life with much anger he kept in. Such a pity.

(any typos are because I'm typing without my glasses)

Nana I know what you mean. Someone I know is like that with her kids. Lots of outward show in front of visitors and verbal abuse, as well as there was physical abuse of the kids when not in company. This family was and is well off not on the poverty line either. One of my kids once said "I would rather be like us without a lot of material things than live in that house!" My kids saw more than me as they stayed a couple of times but after that refused to go and stay in school holidays etc.

Carolyn

I married a man who had a mother who was really unusual. She never ever thought he did anything right. She left his care up to her mother when young, but then when he got to college age, she started to want lots of attention. She was quite vain and wanted to go places with him and says things like " I bet you cant guess if I am his date or his sister" Needless to say, she did not rank in the top 100 of people he wanted to be around. His grandmother was a joy. She had raised him really and he loved her so much. When we married, predictably his mother hated me and his grandmother accepted me with great joy. When we had children, he truly spent a good deal of time being a Dad.. and a family person. He still to this day shows signs of the behaviour of hers and makes me want to go back and just shake this woman , who hurt him so much.

Claire, those photos of you and Tom are so wonderful. You look like a movie star. Well you ex too is quite a hunk. Two strong head clashed? No surprise there. Your son looks like both his dad and you.

Don’t you find Carolyn that grandmothers have a good time with our grandchildren?. We are not the disciplinarians, just the one whom they come to for a listening ear, something that parents don’t always have to time to provide and they have our undivided attention. When my grandson comes, he can talk to his heart’s content about hockey, soccer, any sports which I don’t understand one bit, but he doesn’t seem to care, he just babbles on like if I was his best friend, of course I give him what he loves to eat too which is good.

Always, the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach.

I have to say something about my son-in-law’s family of 12, 7 boys and 5 girls. Needless to say his mother didn’t have much one-on-one time for any children. Sometimes I wonder how she managed to raise such a fantastic family with all of them extremely successful in their careers. It is remarkable and unusual too. Granted they were not poor, but still she impacted in them a sense of respect, responsibility and support. The youngest girl has Downs Syndrome, she is now 25 and her older brother goes to get her every morning to work in his company and takes her home after work.

Winston Churchill’s mother Jenny Jerome was an American and when we see what her son became, all we have to do is look at the kind of mother he had. ”Sir Winston Churchill's mother was one of the liveliest and most controversial women of her time.” Did anyone read the link in the heading about her?

Foreign blood in British stock often produces extraordinary people. Too bad that Edward the V111 and Wallis Simpson didn’t have any children. Those children might have been interesting.

Stephanie, how did that woman manage to raise a daughter so opposite to her I wonder, but perhaps the grandmother changed as she got older. Some people harbor resentment all their lives and I find that it colors their whole behavior. They don’t notice it, but it comes out just the same. There is always some kind of anger deep within and they don’t even remember what happened that made them that way but they are so used to it and they think it doesn’t show, but it does.

Although I look exactly like my mother and I have some of her characteristics, other things I do she would naver have done. She was not as adventurous as I am, wanting to explore many things, while being very conservative in others.

Éloïse

I've come to the conclusion that all of our sons are perfect. What a wonderful bunch of moms we all must be!

I admit it's very difficult, no, I mean it's impossible, for me to be objective about my own sons. - Judy S.

True, a loyalty of silence about the many mountains we have climbed with our sons as well as daughters.

Like the time one son totaled 2 cars in a 3 month period. -- Another son was expelled from college for not attending class, but graduated 4 years later with high honors from a more prestigous school.

A daughter, given a car to drive to practice teaching, wrecked it - didn't tell Mother, but rode a bicycle for a month in the dead of winter. I only found out, when the insurance raised her rate 25%.

But we all survived and communication broke down at times, but all are still talking to me and each other.

And then, Pat, there are the things we never knew about, until the kids told us much much later -- when they were "grown" and "safe."

About a month before he got his driver's license, my son backed the car out of the garage early one Sunday morning and used it while delivering his papers. And he also told me much much later that our mailing address was what his friends used when they sent off for their illegal IDs, because he was always home first. The day he got his drivers license he called me and said, "Mom, I have my license, and I got a job bussing at the Golden Dragon starting today, so I won't be home until after midnight." He kept that job all through high school and ended up being the one who scheduled all the other bus boys, so he could always work around his extra-curricular activities.

I have tried twice to post a message here and the first time one of those pop up ads did me in and the second time somehow I shut down the computer ..who knows, I have enjoyed all of the posts and feel we all have done a great job with our sons and daughters..We are wonderful moms. One thing we all have in common I see is we are an adventuresome lot..We have raised our children, found ourselves alone via death or divorce and moved on! what an inspiration to our children and grandchildren We have coped with whatever life handed us and still are positive and ready to try new things ..ie computers,meeting new people here and in person. To those who have visited in my home and whom I have met .I have a couple of friends who always question me with BUT YOU DONT KNOW THESE PEOPLE ..frankly I feel I do and I ask them DO YOU REALY KNOW YOUR NEIGHBOR?

If we are more adventuresome than our mothers I think it because we were raised by Moms who encouraged us to be the best in whatever we did. Their lives were more circumsized although I have to say my mother, grandmothers ( my grandfathers were dead when I was born) were independent ladies when most ladies were not.Very opinionated and encouraged me to be likewise just listening to thier stories about thier lives.

I would like to mention the value of reading..something my mom did and encouraged us to do. My husband was not a reader of anything but mechanical things and inventions. No light reader was he but he did read the children their stories ..Last Christmas I was so pleased to find my 40 year old son bought his 5 year old son The Christmas Mouse because he loved that when he was little,.They read childrens books and then adult books, My youngest daughter was about 12 when she read Gone With the Wind .and mimiced Was it Prissy to me ..when I would ask her to do something outdoors she would say LAwdy Miz Scarlett Ize a house slave not a field hand, She was so in love with English her professor wanted her to go for a Masters in English lit. And the college she attended hired her in freshman year to tutor graduating seniors, But all of my children read and their children read and that pleases me ..

I think raising children requires a good sense of humor because as some of you have said they do the darnest things and it takes humor to get through them.It sounds to me like we all made issues of the important things and let the kids do some of the things that kids do.. ie wear long hair or earrings for boys,,We were great moms! anna

I read the link you posted and to me the answer to your question Why would he forgive his mother. would be because he hopes to find out why she treated him this way In her past she may have been abused and the article said the man she was living with abused her ..I think he is looking for a way to forgive her and hoping her own past was so terrible she never knew another way.Abuse does run in families and when you read the stories daily about children being abused and ask WHY you always hope it was because they were abused so there would be an excuse..We dont want to believe that some people are cruel with out reason..anna

I've been reading this discussion since the first day, but haven't posted because although I have 3 sons who are really nice young men now, we had rocky years during the teens and early 20s. I found blaming myself for their problems to be a common occurence. I've been wondering since reading this why I'm the only mother here who is not perfect and didn't have perfect children. IMHO, there has been a rather large amount of self praise here. Sue

It is the truth that none of my children got into trouble with the law or wrecked their cars or took drugs. I don't know why and my son recently asked me how we prevented them from taking drugs etc as he has sons of his own.

The only thing I can think of is that they were far too busy working after school or on weekends to get into trouble.When they were teens we did not hand out money to them holus bolus and they had to earn what they got. We lent money for cars after they had saved a deposit and they had to pay us back the balance, As their own money went into the cars they were careful with them. They had to pay the running costs of their cars too.

One of my relations gave her kids so many material things, they had lots of free time and if they got into trouble there was no accountability. The son eventually got into trouble with the law and takes drugs to this day. The daughter was allowed alcohol and to go to clubs at 14 she now has an alcohol dependancy. Neither of the children ever had an after school or weekend job. The money was dished out to them all the time.

I think my philosophy for teens is "keep em busy!" Jenny my sister has the same philosophy and her eldest is now 20 and the little one 16 and they have had jobs after school and on weekends since the age of 15. Prior to that they had lots of sport on weekends and chores at home. Neither of these children have got into trouble so far. Hard work never killed anyone and teens have lots of energy to work off!

I don't think any of us were perfect parents but we did the best with the knowledge that we had at the time. One thing all of my kids have taken on board is that there has to be boundaries with kids. My fear was maybe we had been too rigid in our boundaries but the kids are setting these boundaries for their own children and think they are the proper thing to do. Hence one of my sons having problems with his spouse having had no boundaries in her childhood wanting to have no boundaries for her children also.

I do believe in boundaries for kids.

Carolyn

Sue, I don't think any of us are perfect here. If we're putting out a lot of self-praise, maybe it's because we're relieved at how the kids turned out in spite of it all. I know I certainly wasn't a perfect mom. But I did find it easier to raise a boy, than the girls. Or maybe it was just because I worried less about him than I did the girls. Especially the two younger girls.

One of my friends once said years ago, about raising kids, "Never say -- my kid would never do that -- becasue as sure as you know, they will." She had, and hers did.

Sue, read my post #179. My children are far from perfect as am I. As the years go by the bad times fade and I remember the good times. We laugh now about the escapades of children.

I was the perfect son. I never played hookey from school, I was always on time, I received top marks, my room was always neat, I was always home on time, the neighbors wanted me to play with their children, I was honest even before becoming a Boy Scout, and I always remembered to mow the lawn before being asked.
My memory at my current age, however, is a bit fuzzy so I may be a bit off regarding my childhood experience.

Robby

LIke most of the rest posting, I know that my parenting was not perfect or even close. I also know that neither of my sons are perfect, but I do know they are adult responsible people.. They take charge of their lives.. complain on occasion, be angry.. but I am happy with what they are. I suspect they are not altogether with their Mother. I know that my younger when he was in school was in despair.. I did not wear makeup.. I wore jeans and cutoffs and tshirts. raced sailboats..read anything ...and just was not the obedient Mom he had in mind. Now he seems to rejoice in my difference and tease me if I seem to be settling down. On the Mother issue, my Mother was a wild woman.. She knew no strangers in her life. Came home from church every Sunday with anyone in church who seemed to need it.. Was a political junky and disappeared from the families sight on election years. belonged to any and every club going and after my Dad died had an extremely complicated love life.. She enjoyed every moment of life and I do hope I can at least come close to enjoying my life as she did.

I just had a call from my very favorite DIL she is up in town for the day and bringing my two little grandsons to see me. Nik is 5 and goes to a very expensive private school. The school is strict and academically focussed. Nik is very determined but competitive. In three weeks he has been to the Dean three times! The dean says he has some wonderful qualities like perfectionism and wanting to always win but he can be overpowering also. I think the school is very strict but Nik loves it and is up before 7am all dressed in his school uniform and can't wait to get there.

I will ask Nik when he comes today what he has been doing at school He is very serious about his schoolwork,. He says to me "Granny I will call you after I have finished my homework!"

I found the boys the hardest to manage as they were more determined and so busy! It did not help they were both so curious and dismantled my household gear like the vaccuum cleaner to see how it worked or took alarm clocks apart. They never walked if they could run and were very very noisy. The girls were a breeze apart from the teenage tantrums from 14-17 when their hormones were really raging. The boys were physical daredevils too and how they survived their exploits of climbing and racing their bikes I do not know! Graham broke five bones in tree climbing and even today he likes things like skydiving and bunji jumping. '

Carolyn

Anne, I believe you when you say "my mother, grandmothers .... were independent ladies when most ladies were not". Independence and adaptability along with an adventurous spirit made many women raise exceptional children because they had gone through the depression and the war and had to pull through. That was reflected on how they raised their children.

Sue, of course we won't mention all the terrible things our boys did, it wouldn't be nice to tattle tale, but Baby Boomers or the Flower Generation (is that generation X?) are a special breed. They will inherit from their frugal parents, they will not stand for what their parents have put up with as Seniors. They are a spoilt generation who didn't go through the depression and the war, they are used to having everything in the post war economic boom, they borrow on credit cards and spend money they have not earned yet in spite of their parents proverbial frugality.

Pat, Pedln, I have to laugh about cars when I think of what my son and a friend did when they were both 14. They took the keys from the pocket of a sleeping friend and went for a ride, going over a sharp rock, blew out the two tires and were stranded on a country road till the police brought them home. The fathers negotiated on a settlement and no charges were laid.

You should see what he is doing today, I think that he had a lesson he didn't soon forget. I guess that it is part of growing up. Boys don't tell their mother everything either.

Éloïse

did it when they were in their twenties and no longer depended. . .. I thought. Actually they were still very dependent on the FAMILY as a unit. My daughter complained that she didn't have one anymore and married her boy friends so as to have access to his. It's good marriage, but for a while. I wasn't family. My son was very resentful and took sides with . . his father. who told lies and became very dependent on then although he's been at a distance from them as soon as they hit their teens. Kids in their mid twenties were still kids. and still are. MY daughter understands what happened and doesn't blame me an my son how graciously attempts to to . . . .BUT !!!!Claire

I am a baby boomer and I am unlikely to inherit anything. I have worked hard and nobody ever gave us anything. I am not materialistic and would rather buy second hand or recycle than buy new furniture etc. I have no shame in buying from charity shops. Not all baby boomers were flower children! My kids apart from one are materialistic but I think thats the culture of today of the thirty somethings.

Carolyn

It's nice to see this site becoming human. Every time I passed, I thought, no, way too perfect for me and mine!<grin> I'm a Baby Boomer too and not in line to inherit anything. I rarely use my Credit Card, and mainly keep it tfor emergencies, such as perhaps retrieving one of my four sons from the mountains of Tibet or out of a Tsunami(came far too close on that one).

As to War, my classmates went off to Vietnam, and are still traumatised on the whole. Australian Vietnam Vets didn't even get a Welcome Home Parade till the 90's. There was the Malaysian Emergency, and probably others I've forgotten.And hovering over everything in our lives was that all encompassing Mushroom Cloud.

I was pretty shocked after my boys were safely grown to hear of some of their hair-raising adventures, and the Conspiracies of Silence that existed between them. I guess what I didnt know didn't hurt me.LOL

My boys were all clinging babies, toddlers and Pre-Schoolers. In fact they didn't want a bar of Kindy etc. My friend joked that somebody would have to get a knife one day to cut them away from my skirt. However, after they left home, I sometimes had the unnerving experience of not even knowing what Continent they were on. My friend's son, who walked into Pre School and Grade One without even a backward glance(she was very proud of his outgoing personality) bought a house near his Mum, visits every day, and has hardly left his small birth town.

I did read somewhere that clingy kids grow up to more adventurous. I hope it's true, otherwise I'm in big trouble!LOL

my what a lot of posts to read and catch up -

Pedlin the boy who wants his mother's love - that is what is so hard about being abused - and why the public has such a difficult time understanding - many a physically and sexually abused child do not want the abuser to be taken out of their life - no matter what parents do to a child they still love them - many do not know there is another way to experience childhood but the loss of a parent to most children is devastating - that is why you have some children not saying anything because they know they will be removed from their home.

Children removed often ask why they are being punished - they are alone and in pain but in the eyes of society and therapists they are safe - the child only knows they are alone and not in their home with their siblings or other safe parent or among all their familiar things.

Also all your life most adult children are trying to replay and fix what happened - they often unconsciously marry someone just like the parent they had issues with - it is another opportunity to work out their history. They think hopefully they can repeat their history with success - but it never happens -

The finality of accepting that these things happened and then to finally walk through that pain of realization is horrendous - Many put it off and put if off - they will do anything including go to therapy for years trying to rid themselves of the pain but not walk through the pain and accept their reality.

Once the reality is accepted than there is still the desire to say the parent didn't really mean it because, to think otherwise is to say the parent did not have the amount or kind of love that seems acceptable.

It is all very difficult and confusing - it is easy to look on a situation as an outsider and assume that the abuse would be enough to make a child want to leave or abandon their parent - but it is the other way around - the child feels abandoned by the parent even if the parent is never caught the child still feels abandoned because the parent is not loving and the child wants to fix that because they must see themselves as worthy of being loved.

Yep, been there and because of recovery know lots of folks who have been there...

Question in the Heading:-"Are boys oblivious of their mother’s ambition for them until they grow up?"
There was no doubt in my mind even at the age of seven that my mother wanted me to get a college degree. In fact, she used the term "university" rather than college. And not too many years ago I saw (it is now hidden in a box of papers somewhere) a poem I had written about that time saying that I would rather get a degree than be a laborer all my life. Of course, I didn't truly understand what I was saying (maybe I did) but I knew of her ambition and the words in my poem were really hers.
She died when I was nine but my aunt (my mother's sister) never allowed me to forget her as a person and her ambition for me. Year after year after year my aunt would send me a note about the time of my mother's birthday -- I remember receiving one while I was in a foxhole during WWII -- saying something about her. Throughout all those years the thought of my getting a Ph.D. was always in the back of mind and although "life" moved in and slowed me down a bit, at the age of 52 I returned to full-time studies and got my doctorate when I was 59.
My aunt's first words were "Your mother would have been proud of you."

Robby

and we don't always know the impact mothers' words have even when her children have become soldiers fighting a war zone. Who is it that said that dying soldiers often call their mother when they are wounded or dying.

When I was growing up, my mother often used sayings such as: "tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you who you are" or "like father like son", she didn't preach but those sayings remained with us.

How much do boys retain of what their mother says in the course of a day? it depends what, but if she meant it to stay with them, she says it in a manner that her son won't soon forget. Not "pick up your room" or "stop teasing your sister", but profound things.

By-the-way Robby, here we use University rather than College (CEGEP is Collége d'Études Générales et Professionelles). In the 1960's kids could go straight from High School (grade 12) to University, but not any more. Now they do 3 years of CEGEP before University and 4 years if they want to work with a diploma such as Nursing Technique (not RN) or Architectural or Design Technique which give a diploma, Universities give a BA, MA or PhD.

My daughter just said to me: "mothers tend to smother her sons, but fathers fix that by making them go outside to play away from their mothers' bosoms."

Éloïse

My mother never smothered me. There is no doubt that I was the apple of her eye but she encouraged independence in me.

Robby

In my experience a son will often talk over a decision they have made regarding their lives with their mother before they mention it to their father. My boys always did that when their father was alive. They would run something past me first before they discussed it with their father.

My son Matt will often phone out of the blue and tell me of a business decision he is about to make and wait for my comments on the proposal. He also likes me to share in his triumphs and will phone me when something good happens in business. He phoned me the other day to book a day when he will take me for a tour through his new warehouse and office complex, he is waiting til its all finished and furnished in two weeks.

I have four grandsons and marvel how two of them are so like their fathers. One hates schoolwork like his Dad did and the other loves school but gets into trouble with the teachers for the same personality traits his Dad had. I told my grandson Nikolas today when he confided that he had been sent to the Dean this week, that his dad was in trouble for the very same thing when he was at school.

I think grandmothers have a special relationship with grandsons also. My grandsons always spill the beans to me if they have been in trouble with their parents. Nikolas is only 6 and sometimes will telephone me to tell me his woes. Today he asked me if I still loved him when he was bad. I told him I would always love him no matter what but always hate the bad behaviour. I have a real soft spot for Nik as I cared for him quite a lot when his mother was still working. My DIL is very unselfish with the children and likes them to have a good relationship with me. I am very fortunate my son found this girl!

Carolyn

Carolyn, you bring up an important point when separating the person from the behavior. A mother might dart out into the street to pull a son back and then say:-"I don't love you when you do that." Of course she loves him. She means "I don't like your behavior."
Those words "love" and "like" unfortunately are often used interchangeably as are the mixture of the person with the behavior and terrible impressions are left in the child's mind.

Robby

What are the things that adult children don't tell their mother? the hurtful things hidden behind the resentful behavior that never gets resolved? I have children who were very angry for a long time for something I did or said and they never came out with it for years? How can we as mothers make our children tell us what they resent or why they are still hurting after a long time? Sometimes relationship are very strained even if polite, they never seem to be warm and easy going.

How did you all deal with that in your life?

Éloïse

My son is two years older than my daughter . . twenty seven months to be exact. He had a very hard time when she was born although I hired a helper to take care of much of the new borns needs so that I could tend to his. He was depressed. didn't smile or talk and just hung around doing nothing much. It might not have been noticed but we were looking for it. sooo.

We did two things which seemed to help. first we imported his cousin for a few days . . . his age and compatable. . . before he knew it he was playing again.

And later on maybe a couple of years he was showing signs again and I asked a woman with several sons for help. she said to take him on DATES. so he and I went together to the airport to watch the big planes take off and to the work site in Topanga canyon to watch the earth movers work and he came home and did likewise with his relevant toys

I wonder how the rest of this message got lost.....another post will do. . . . Claire

My son Tom was a pimply miserable tall clumsy teenager. He eventually grew into his body and became a six foot four hunk, but at that time in high school, he was not attracting girls or peer attention or doing well in school. He said nothing about it until one day, on the spur of the moment he said "I feel like I don't exist"

I took the hint and did some things that helped. . .his dad was incommunicado with the kids in their teens except to say hurtful things to him as in "why don't you have a girl friend", , , He was himself shy and withdrawn and identifying with his son. So I had to keep an eye on him too.

Many ears later I found he had attempted suicide when the kids were little via the car and the garage, but changed his mind when he thought about them. He never told me. . . someone else did. I married a teenager, a perennial teenager. . . .and finally, after twenty seven years, left when our kids were grown . . .Claire

Robbie talked about his thoughts on the question: Are boys oblivious of their mother's ambition for them until they grow up?

When our youngest was in third grade (and this was his 5th or 6th teacher), he started crying and telling me he didn't want to go to college. He was having a difficult time adjusting to the changes brought about because of our frequent moves. I told him that he had a long time until college and that he wouldn't necessarily have to go. Then he said, "But you're always fussing at Bill (the oldest brother) that he'd better get his grades up or he won't get into college". And I was. My husband used to think that we'd have to buy a gas station so that Bill would have a job. As it turned out, he (the oldest) did well in H.S. after he got his driver's license, as my husband told him he couldn't drive the car until he had a B average and lower insurance rates. He then did very well in college, got his Master's and PhD on fellowships and is now a professor of Environmental Science.

The youngest had stomach aches and other psychosomatic symptoms by the middle of K and in first grade when he was truly ill (we were living temporarily in a motel until we could get into Navy Housing in Key West), I made up some lessons for him. After that he would beg me to let him stay home so that I could teach him. At the time, I didn't even think of Home Schooling, but maybe it would have helped him, at least for a few years. I thought he needed to be with other children. He's always been quite a "loner". He attended college for one semester, but dropped out and sort of disappeared from our lives for a while. However, he is now happily married, has 2 sons, a great wife, and has started a small business and seems to be doing OK.

So, my 3 sons were not oblivious to my ambitions--but they didn't always try to achieve them, either. Other things, such as driver's licenses, were more influential. Sue

This link about THE TROUBLE WITH RAISING BOYS is interesting and you can read all of it if you click "next".

"Introduction

What are little girls made of?

Sugar and spice, and everything nice;

That's what little girls are made of.

What are little boys made of?

Snips and snails, and puppy-dogs' tails;

That's what little boys are made of.

This is a book about boys and how they grow up to be men. It is at the same time an attempt to work out why, in the twenty years in which women have done so much to change themselves, men have changed so little. These themes are inextricably woven together because it is women who give birth to the boys who still grow up expecting to hold the power at home and at work. It is our sons who turn their anger against their communities, just as much as it is our sons who grow up to make and enforce the rules.

This is also a book about love, puzzlement, and, for many mothers, anguish, for those are the things they feel as they watch their sons grow up. Some see their sons almost as creatures from a different planet, and watching this extraterrestrial being come to terms with the experience of living on this planet can be very..."

Is it true that men have a harder time to face life than before women's liberation and they were king of the castle?

It is only after WW11 that women began to feel more independent because they could earn a salary. Does that change the way she raised her sons though?

Éloïse

"In the twenty years in which women have done so much to change themselves, men have changed so little."
Men have changed so little??!! What a laugh! Written by a woman of course. Ask any man. Life is so different now for a man, especially when dealing with a woman, that going from 1980 to now is like crossing the international time line. And he has not just watched women change, he has himself changed -- and radically!

Robby

The modern thinking here in education is to focus boys education toward the way boys learn.Boys learn differently from girls. Boys are falling behind in school. Girls are topping the classes. Now we are experimenting with all boy classes and its working. Boys are more tactile in their learning experiences. Hence the boys dismantling the electrical appliances and alarm clocks in our household.

Robby there is also a school of thinking that boys have lost their way. Because of the focus on feminism boys do not know what their role is in life. If you have both boys and girls it is blatantly obvious even if you provide a boy with unisex toys they are different from girls and play differently from girls. The high young male suicide rate is being carefully looked at here in the perspective of boys not knowing what part of the bigger scheme of things they belong in,

Have the thirty something mothers lost their way in encouraging the masculine side of their sons by pushing the feminine side? An interesting thought!

Carolyn

I see a significant number of teenagers who are contemplating suicide and most of them are girls.

Robby

Robby we have a matriachal society here and you have a strongly patriachal society. You have lots of fundamentalist Christians - there again strongly patriachal. All the top posts in our land are held by women. Feminism is very strong here. Maybe there needs to be a balance in both societies.

carolyn

PS also the culture in your high schools for instance is different. You have from what I can see a society based on looks and popularity. Not so much here.

Carolyn

In this link you will see that TEEN SUICIDE RATE rose 300% for males and 233% in African American teens between 1980 and 1992, an alarming figure.

when my son said "I feel like I don't exist" I took it as an alarm going off. . .a reason to pay attention as loss of self and self awareness can result in suicide. . . Perhaps the subject itself . . . suicide in general warrents an exploration. . . . Claire

When I was a young mother we never saw men pushing baby carriages or even carrying a baby outdoors. But now men do housework and take their turn in feeding the baby at night. Ethnic groups don't do that where the tradition is still that women's work in the house and tend to babies and men go out to earn a living. I live in an Italian neighborhood and they are still very traditional. Senior Italian wives doesn't drive a car, they tend to the garden and make preserves for the winter.

There are also many Arabs in my area and they have large families who come to play in the park in front. Those children are very well behaved and polite. All the women wear scarves on their heads and come and watch the boys and men play soccer. There is no doubt that tradition plays a large part in raising sons. My grandson Anthony's best friend, aged 12 is Muslim and we only had him once for dinner because our diet so different from theirs. He is polite, extremely bright. He asked me what I could tell him about the Great Depression. He listened avidly and asked very pertinent questions for a project he was doing. He speaks 3 languages fluently and understands a fourth.

Do you think that traditions has value today in raising children? Why are lavish marriages still performed on a wide scale if divorce is so rampant? What does tradition, which is based on religion, mean for those who don't practice a religion?

Éloïse

When my first son was born, I fed him every night and I pushed the "pram" in public. Prior to his birth I took an "Expectant Fathers" course given by the Visiting Nurses Association on feeding, burping, carrying, etc. etc.
And all that was in 1949.

Robby

"Why are lavish marriages still performed on a wide scale if divorce is so rampant?"
Because those are two separate subjects -- the wedding and the marriage. A better term is "lavish wedding" rather than marriage. A significant number of couples, primarily the woman, look only at the wedding day -- the ring, the dress, the wedding cake, the list of bridesmaids, the list of invitees, etc. etc. The groom sits there thinking of the upcoming rent or mortgage, how well his job is doing, etc. Or he doesn't think of anything at all except how beautiful she is. Divorce is rampant, in my opinion, because so many people don't look past the wedding day.

Robby

I found that my sons talk to their Dad about business. He was a great success in that field and they rely on him to steer them to this day. Even though he is of course retired. I get the relationship questions and in the case of my younger, he sometimes wants me to talk to him about why women are like they are. This generally means he has done something careless and his wife is on him. They both seem to have good marriages, but that is so hard for an outsider to know. When my younger son was in s chool, he had severe problems in math. We had him tutored, taken to special classes, the whole route. Finally when he was a junior in high school, he came to us and said, he wanted to be in the army.. I went with him to a recruiter and the man ( who was a joy) told him, he must finish high school, but could sign a contract with the army guaranteeing him a space in whatever field he wanted to be in and as long as he had his high school diploma by a year from then, he would get the classes. We all signed the contract and two days after graduation, he was off to the army... to learn how to jump out of airplanes. He spent 3 years in the 82nd airborne and loved it, but then got out and went to college, much to our amazement. He graduated cum laude.. All this after years of horrid grades and teachers complaints. Amazing what a little growing up can do.

Usually the parents pay for it. The parents, who lived in another time, hope that the marriage will last and sometimes throw a big wedding, both for tradition and to impress their relatives.

If you did that Robby you were the exception I think. Men in our entourage didn't help with night feeding and housework then, but today I see young men sharing with housework and with the children. So then, men are changing to adapt to a women in the work force.

Stephanie, your son was perhaps bored stiff in school until he reached higher levels. How many men would like to know why women are different from them and I read once that there is a scientific explanations to it, but am not able to transmit it because I don't recall it in its entirety. In other words, women are brain-wired differently than men. Men who accept it seem to be happier in their marriage than those who try hard at making women understand their point of view, which to them is supposed to be the right one and has nothing to do with IQ.

Carolyn, I didn't realize that New Zealand was a matriarchal society until now as you mention. Do you think it has a bearing on how women are perceived by American society in general?

Until the US has a Woman President in for a term it will still lag behind the rest of the developed world in the battle of the sexes.

I think we may be too much on the other side of the scale however. Every high post in the land is held by a Woman. From Prime Minister to Governor General and everything else in between including Chief Justice and Attorney General. The CEO of our biggest Corporation is also a woman.

I see an ideal society as being a balanced society. Equal opportunity not weighted one way or the other.

I have listened to many debates recently on the psyche of Men in the 21st century. Many experts agree with what Eloise says men ARE different to women. Instead of celebrating the difference between men and women and holding up the ideal relationship between men and women as being partnership in which both are equal, a lot of women seem to want men to become as women. This slant is as wrong as encouraging a patriachal society.

Mothers should be allowing their boys to assume the masculine role they were born with while encouraging them to understand the opposite sex and work in partnership with women and not in competition.

I see young couples whose marriages are competitions! Gosh its tiring to be around people like that.

Carolyn

I never thought of it as a man-woman thing. He was my son, too. We agreed before his birth that she would take care of his day feeding and I his night feeding. Many a night (practically every night) I was up in the wee hours taking the bottle out of the fridge, putting it into a pot of hot water, testing it on my wrist, and holding him in my arms while I fed him. I didn't sit there thinking:-"Gee, I'm a man. What am I doing here."
And it's just possible that there were a significant number of men, even in that era, doing it. How do we know what was going on behind closed doors at 3 a.m.?

Robby

Robby, I only knew what women in Quebec's large families were saying about that. I had first cousins galore, sisters and we had regular parties with a group of close friends of ours, about 10 couples and the women talked about babies as we were all in the same age group. I have no idea how it was in the US, but here after the war, it was "men go out to work and women stayed home". It changed gradually, as you said earlier, it's good that children have physical contact with their father when they are babies. I love to see a grand pa pushing a baby carriage.

Carolyn, How do men react to a matriarchal society in New Zealand? Do they feel threatened by that?

Éloïse

Robby I am so glad you took the opportunity to know and take joy in holding and caring for your baby.

I would ask though what is it that is a choice some men do make but, many boys, who when they are men, believe they should make decisions for women and have expectations for how and when she does her job. The concept of team or partnership happens for some couples but there are more homes where it does not happen.

Just this week we have had two examples of men determining how women can participate in society.

We had the culmination of the Apprentice where 'The Donald' chose what projects the winner would oversee - the vast difference in projects offered to the women as compared to the men winners was startling - the first winner, a male, was offered the opportunity to apprentice for the building of a prestige high rise Chicago Tower - the second winner also a male, was given several opportunities including finishing out and filling with tenants an office building in New York and get Trump water off the ground and marketed - the woman who won gets to oversee the remodeling of Trump's personal home, a 6,000 square foot compound in Florida. No big city involvement for her where she would hobnob with the movers and shakers on Business.

And then Congress has determined through a bill that women will only be able to serve in the military in a non- combative role. These are volunteer women just like men are volunteers. There is no non-combative areas in Iraq - even being at a check point can mean combat will happen. The pentagon and the army where aghast - and evidently women in Congress where aghast. In fact the law was changed to read 'from here on' since to pull all the women out of Iraq, which was the original version of the bill, means 25% of the force would disappear. But here we are back to 50 years ago when males are making the decision for women who they decided could be typists etc. but not participate in war.

And so if even half these men were nurtured by both a loving mother and a loving father what happened that their concept of team or partnership supersedes their "right" to make decisions that constrict opportunities for women?

and an old fashioned controlling husband created a difficult choice for me. I decided to keep the good father with his children for their sake as well as mine. I couldn't support them and stuck out a twenty seven year marriage to that affect. I don't regret it. The kids love their dad and he loves them and I love them and that's my final word on the subject . . . Claire

I am confused. I don't understand the connection between the topic of Mothers and Sons and examples of men determining how women can participate in society.

Robby

mothers seem to have a direct affect on a son's ability to make their way in the world. The self confidence and the tools required seem to be derived from their relationships with their parents and in particular with their mothers.

. As to womens rights in this modern world. There is sometimes confusion as to whether a woman is a mother figure or a father figure in the minds of some men and they act accordingly. Many boys are raised by their mothers in a single parent family due to the high divorce rate. This forces women to become providers and can confuse a son who later is in a position to hire and fire . . . WOMEN. . . . Claire. . .

Hmm Robbie, I would guess you predateed the era of breast feeding if you did the night feeds. I did the feeding, but my husband from the day the boys came home from the hospital.. did the daily baths.. loved to take them out in the carriage fora walk while I cooked dinner. Then he cleaned up for me and I read to them. Then he joined us and loved to act out the stories for them as they got older. I have been fortunate indeed to be in a marriage of equals.. Our sons seem to both have that as well. Hopefully this was something they absorbed from us. I do find to my dismay, that although my husband andI tend to be quite liberal, both sons are much much more conservative. Always startles me.

This article about WHAT DO MOMS WANT says that 80% of working mothers are satisfied with their lot, except that they would like a little more time with their children.

How do all those working mothers do it? I worked too when all my kids were still at home, but precious time was stolen from interaction with my children.

Éloïse

I only had four years at home with my kids before going back to work. Economic necessity for us. I did glide time while they were little (I worked for the Govt) so I started work at 7am and got home at 3.35 for most of their childhood. They had care in the mornings and I was home for after school. The guilt I felt about working meant that I only had work and home. I never went out socially unless the kids could come.

I used up all my annual leave on kids illnesses so never really had holidays. Their dad took his leave during school holidays and the couple down the street did school holidays too and we cared for each others children. Whichever Mum or Dad was home was the babysitter in the holidays. None of us got holidays with our spouses except for maybe the five days over Christmas and two days at Easter.

I still feel extreme guilt about having to be a working mum. I think however I am a really good grandmother ( which eases my conscience I think!) Now I am Graces caregiver (4) for half a day every day while her Mum eases back into the workforce. I really enjoy her chatter and watching her grow every day.

carolyn

"...the connection between the topic of Mothers and Sons and examples of men determining how women can participate in society." If sons are brought up by loving and nurturing mothers and fathers, who show by example love and team play, than how does a boy, when he has the power afforded him as a man, use that power to either control women in his home or, as many who do not believe in individual control of their female family members will still feel they have the right to control the amount of power sharing allowed to women as well as, control by putting limits on her opportunities in a democracy or, decide the government or a judge should control aspects of a women's life.

How does this happen that these sweet boys raised by loving mothers become men who use their power to control women - that is the connection Robby - and if you know the answer I would be grateful for any insight - that to me is a big mystery -

I remember being married young to a sweet man who within a year of our marriage started to thank and act as a patriarchal male who had power but did not share that power equally with women nor feel it was important that a women was allowed less opportunity because she was excluded from the power table.

I was puzzled then and I am still puzzled now - I certainly didn't grow horns nor was I Lorali but something changed that sat me back on my heels.

Barbara I have never met any controlling man brought up as you describe. The controlling ones in our extended family had very controlling and possessive mothers. My SIL who was brought up by his very loving Mum after a divorce is a good man who believes in equality at home and in the workplace. Your description puzzles me also.

Carolyn

My husband a friend for two years turned into a HUSBAND shortly after our marriage. His ideas were predicated on a traditional view of that role and not really on his own experience of it since his father had died when he was nine after a brief two week illness which nowadays would have been treated with antibiotics. Lacking a model, he reverted to tradition as espoused in the movies. His first cousin, deana durbin, a movie star, brought some of that to him since they helped to support the family after the death of his father with a stipend. It wasn't really enough for him his sister and his little brother so his mother did what she was able to do... housework for others. All the children had college educations though. the eldest, my husband used the G.I. bill for his, his sister baby sat and his younger brother ???I don't know but they all graduated from four year colleges. His sister a teacher, his brother a geologist and he, after failing engineering courses turned to teaching.

As to the change in his behavior it was notable because during the two years of courtship, he played that role, never a disagreement and as soon as we married we took a three week trip up the coast of CA etc. we fought all the time. . . I wasn't any different but he was. The fighting never really let up over a twenty seven year marriage. Somehow we stayed together that long. . . we had much in common including our values and goals for the children, but couldn't manage to be peaceful with each other. Our timing was awful. when one wanted peace the other was full of rankles and vice versa. . . .He was never comfortable with his relationship with his mother refusing to let her control him which was probably at the base of it. He would never have dared to cuss at her the way he did with me and one morning after the children were both on their own, it was just to much. I said I would indeed shut up as he required, but that the marriage was over . . . and it was. . . Claire

A new week is starting with a new set of questions in the heading.

I want to thank everyone for those excellent postings. Could we please concentrate on the relationship between Mothers and Sons.

I realize that marriages are rocky at times and I don't pretend to know how it should be, but one thing for sure is what goes on between a couple reflects on the life of the children no matter at what age they are.

Grandmothers have a hugely important role in the lives of their grandsons. I have an entirely different relationship with my grandsons than they have with their parents, I like to think I can be their confidante and I am. Nikolas who is 5 often calls me if he has been in trouble to get something off his chest and get a bit of sympathy but not in the way that contradicts his parents decisions about the punishment for his misdemeanour.

The older grandsons like to have individual talking time with me, I love talking to children and listening to their ideas on life and hearing about their little troubles and their little triumphs, They also love holding the floor.

Grandmothers these days have time to listen when parents are often so busy with their businesses or careers and the tasks that go with working and running a large household,

I would definately intervene in the case of abuse of any kind or if I knew one of the grandchildren was very unhappy about something. I would bring the matter up with my children regardless of the reception but I would be careful not to intervene in a confrontational way.

Children who are brought up in daycare can have very balanced personalities if they are in the right establishment. However, if daycare is combined with the parents having a very busy social life as well, that is when it all seems to fall to bits. If you decide to pursue a career as well as have a family I think the social life has to give. An hour a day quality time that many parents think is sufficient is not enough for a small child.

I know one small child who is in Daycare. The mother also goes out all weekend and leaves the child either with friends or her ex husband. The child is really starving for affection and time. I don't know the child very well at all but when he was brought to my place by a friend to visit he wanted all my attention even though I was virtually a stranger. I could see immediately the child was just reaching out for any attention he could get from anyone. I found that profoundly sad and dangerous actually.

Carolyn

Lucky because nothing in my young life had prepared m for what I should have to face in my adult life. Growing up I had very little real guidance. My mother was an invalid (bed-ridden) for all of my formative years. From the age of eight to twenty-eight I never saw my mother out of bed.My sister spent years in boarding school. Our parents were not abusive or uncaring- just distracted. I was totally unprepared for my teen years, dating,marriage,taking care of a house or how to be a mother. Our first son was the first baby I had ever seen.

My beloved husband and I had two sons-five years apart. They were very different in almost every way,This is about one son, the younger.

It's a given that mothers will love their children.But there is the rare child who will unreservedly and undemandingly love back. That was our younger son.

There were, thankfully, few problemswith their rearing. We lived in a climate which allowed them to be outdoors nearly the entire year.TV was not a problem. They were thirteen and eight when it arrived in our city. We had a sizeable library and lts of records. We always had music in our house so it was not surprising that both sons were musicians. the younger son was quite gifted. Beside music they had many extra curricular activities.

I was a stay at home mom,car pooling sometimes three times a day when the boys wee in different schools.Although I was active in school affairs and the community I was almost always at home after school evcept for the times when there were outside activities-scouts-music lessons etc.

Even though we lived nearly three hundred miles apart our younger son son helped us through his Dads almost two year battle with cancer. He came in to be with us every weekend that he could and was a real blessing to both of us.He was with me when his dad died.He was holding one of his hands and I the other.

Despite the fact that he had asked me to come to live with him I stayed alone in our house for three years. The very idea of living in any other house than ours was never considered and certainly not with one of my children. After a terrible fall -broken bones-bruises and cuts I was confined to bed for six weeks and realized that I needed to be where I had some family. My older son and all his children lived on the west coast while we lived in Texas. I accepted the gracious offer and moved into my sons house.

That was twelve and a half years ago. It has proved to be one of the most rewarding experiences of my very long life.

Yesterday was my babys sixtieth birthday. Hard to believe.

I am now ninety years old and dependent upon for for many phycical needs such as a wheelchair when I need to leave the house. He works extremely hard, still hashis music, plays with a group most weekends, rehearses two nights a week and every night that he is at home cooks a complete meal for us since I can no longerstand long enough to prepare food. He is caring, compassionate and untiring.

This is a lot about mother but about a mother who although isolated frome the world and alone is never lonely and enormously grateful for the wonderful man who has given me a second life. I cant believe in my incredible luck. Nothing ever prepared me for this wonderful experience. It was just plain dumb luck!

Mary - you are fortunate indeed. It appears from what you post your son lived alone when he asked you to come and live with him. Its more difficult I think when there are children and a spouse in the household,

Carolyn

Hello Mary, I love to hear success stories like yours. Your mind sharp like a young woman and if you didn't say how old you are nobody would know by how you express yourself.

I live in a triplex with my youngest daughter in a separate apartment above hers and her family of 4. That also happened about 12 years ago for me. It was the best move I ever made and I hope it will last and I don't see why it wouldn't unless I become not mobile because my apartment is upstairs from them. I see them every day but I don't live with them, there is a big difference. I have seen my granddaughter and grandson since they were born and that has brought me so much pleasure.

I must say that my son-in-law is a breed apart. Perhaps because he is one of 12 brothers and sisters and having family around was part of his childhood he is more tolerant than the average man and not always having his way in everything was also taught to him early on in life.

When the parents are away, the kids had a live-in sitter, but I am the presence the kids can count on for anything that comes up. They do confide in me, but not as much as Carolyn's grands I guess.

Grandchildren will be as close to their grandmother or grandfather as their parents are. When there is division between parents and grandparents, the grandparents are left out most of the time. An important broken link unfortunately.

Éloïse

Grandparents and sons. Thus far we are not close to our grandson. He is a handful and his parents do not seem to care. They are truly strict with their daughter, but the son is allowed a good deal of freedome. They were over yesterday and by the time they left with the 3 year old dynamo, I had an entire house to put together. Each room was sysematically destroyed and they simply chuckled and talked of his energy. I suspect unless he changes a lot we wont be close. Cant even read to him. He simply refuses to listen.. Says.. NO and that is it for him. Dont really think he is ADHD.. Simply feel he needs to have some discipline in his life.

"If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof overhead and a place to sleep ... you are richer than 75% of this world. If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace ... you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy.

When I read that the first time, it was hard for me to realize that I belonged to that 8% of the richest people in the world even with my relatively small income.

Mothers today have a totally different life than the one we had. They have a job, sometimes two to make ends meet, and come home at night exhausted and have to deal with housework, they are single moms and just plain to tired to do anything. They hardly have time for recreation for lack of money, millions of kids grow up in the inner city where violence, rape and drugs are the norm.

Times changed so much that I feel like if I had been raised in the stone age, so what would our advise be to young mothers, if by chance we were asked our opinion on how to raise children?

Éloïse

Stephanie, There is hope for your 3 yr old grandson I think. He will follow in his dad's footsteps, that is usually the pattern but I understand that it can be exhausting for us to have them around for hours. Boys usually love their grandmother.

"How different is it raising sons from what it was half a century ago?"

First thing in the morning the TV is turned and little children watch cartoons while they are being fed breakfast, dressed to go to day-care, then parents watch the news for 5 minutes before everybody rushes out to the car and get into heavy traffic. This can be the only time for parents to communicate with the baby in the car seat even if mother's eyes is not on the baby but on the road. At night the kids are picked up and mother's second job starts with dinner, bath, dishes, etc. etc. homework (while watching TV).

How much time is spent talking to with children? I don't know.

No, I didn't really expect young people to ask us how to raise their children. Young mothers in fact transmit what they learned without even being conscious of it. How many times do we hear something like: "I was brought up that way", or "My father used to do that".

I know that mothers mostly work full time nowadays and in my generation they mostly did not. However I get puzzled by all of the stuff considered important in the childrens rooms. Both of our grandchildren, have tv.. dvd players,plus cd players. The older girl is begging for a cell phone..She is 9.. We would not even let our sons have a extension phone in their sons much less tvs etc. When we go to visit, I notice that the children disappear into their rooms , so they can watch tv, etc. When our granddaughter comes to visit, she knows that we prefer she read or be read to ( she has had severe reading problems) What she watches on tv is monitored, since I am too old to let her watch some of the MTV nonsense. They dont go outside.. I know they are not home mostly , but our sons were outside from dawn to dusk when they were in elementary school.. The neighborhood was the most important things in their lives.

My grandson was sitting in on the long distance conversation I was having with his mom the other day. As an only child he's used to talking to and with adults and expected to be part of it. . . . He is 12.

From recent posts, it appears that perhaps the relationships between mothers and their sons might be changing, or should I have said "disintegrating" in some instances in this current generation. Stephanie, your description of the interaction between your grandson and his mom is just so sad - It appears that the parents are substituting electronic influences for human interactions. I just can't understand how they could have allowed their little guy to go wild. - JudyS

In our family there are two ways of raising boys. Family one - insists on good manners, TV is rationed, (they have a home theatre so its mostly kids movies the boys get to see. The movies are a treat not a right.) Homework is done with no TV on and supervised by mother. The children have a healthy diet with little processed food. Children have little chores to do each day. There are boundaries of behaviour in Family One.

Family two has no rules. Homework is done with the TV blaring in the background. Boys eat what they want. There is no consequences for bad behaviour. The children are not required to do any chores or to even keep the playroom and bedrooms tidy after trashing them, Mum does all the picking up and tidying up.

Guess which kids I enjoy having for a visit?

Carolyn

It takes strong parenting to curb children's television viewing. There are fathers who take the responsibility to send kids out to play but both parents need to agree on it. If there is the smallest division between parents, the kids soon capitalize on it.

1) On a scale of one to ten, how much does television interferes with parents/child relationship?

2) On a scale of one to ten, does television teach kids things that parents disapprove of but never say or do anything about it?

3) On a scale of one to ten, does television teach children to settle every dispute with violence>

4) On a scale of one to ten, Does television teach children that inappropriate behavior is OK?

Stephanie, Kids running to the television set as soon as they come into their grandparent's home is more of a habit than of not caring don't you think? A habit that's very hard to break and unless we provide them with similar excitement, they prefer TV. It could be hard to enforce a television ban when they are visiting because then kids would prefer to stay at home. I have grown grandchildren and they all turned out OK in spite of long hours in front of television, but I insist on having it off during meals.

Claire, my 12, 13 year old grandsons are such a joy but their parents give them a lot of direction. They don't always do what they please either, they do their chores. It's fun when we go to the living room after dinner while the kids clean up the dishes and sweep the floor, grumbling, of course.

Judy, My 4 daughters brought up seven pretty wonderful sons and they did watch a lot of television. So it's not all bad out there.

Carolyn, one of my grandchildren gets A plus doing homework in front of a blaring television set but I agree with you that parents should make television watching time a treat, how do you like kids programing these days?

I am wondering if many of you think that kids today don't get enough sleep. I just wonder because when I was raising my family, bedtime was at 8 pm for the younger ones and no later than 9 for the older ones.

Eloise, I have found that many of my friends, also like me, have grandchildren who stay up into the wee hours of the night. In almost every case, the parents both work. When the families get home, the first thing that happens is that the kids watch TV or play video games or on the computers. And yes, most of them have these things in their bedroom. Moms and Dads get busy with fixing dinner and trying to keep up with the housework or just sitting down to relax. Bedtime seems to have disappeared.

I had regular bedtimes for my sons and only had later nights on special occasions, weekends only, Our later nights were still earlier than the regular times my grandsons have today! I think my youngest son, father of 2 of them, resented the rationing of TV and the early bedtimes he had and therefore, doesn't help with getting the boys to bed on time. Incidentally, these 2 go to bed at a reasonable hour when they visit me without their parents. The 3rd one doesn't visit me at all. He is a step-grandchild and has mandatory visits with a long distance father, which doesn't leave time for Grandma. Sue

My grands have regulated bedtimes. However in saying this there is one child who takes after me and needs very little sleep. She finds it difficult to sleep at all. The rules after discussion with her Physician is that she can get up in the middle of the night and turn on her light and either sit at her desk and do her sketching or read in bed. She is NOT allowed to disturb the rest of the house. These rules were made after all other remedies for sleep were tried and failed.

She is an extremely intelligent child - her cognitive ability and language ability is that of a 13yr old according to recent tests. The doctors say this is why she does not sleep like other children,. Her brain is very active. She is 7 yrs old.

All the other grands aged 2 - 6 yrs have regulated bed times on week days and Sunday night. The two year old is in bed asleep by 6.30 pm most nights and the three year and four year olds have a 7pm bedtime the five year old and six year old have a 7.30pm deadline. In bed at 7 and lights out at 7.30pm.

One family lets their two boys stay up til all hours on Friday and Saturday nights the rest of the kids get til 8.30pm on Friday and Saturday nights. I let the sleepless wonder stay up here til 9.30pm if she has a Saturday night sleepover with me. I can remember tossing and turning in bed at 7 years old after being put to bed early.

None of my grands have TV in their bedrooms. The TVs are in the living room and play rooms. The older ones have casette players in their rooms and their parents borrow audio tapes from the library and the kids listen to books before they sleep as part of the relaxation time before sleep. I love listening to an audio book before sleep myself and find it really relaxes me and readies me for sleep.

Carolyn

Sue, there seems to be a pattern in sleep habits. From birth to adolescence sleep patterns change and we need less as we age. In the same family, some need more sleep than others and personally I used to need at least 8 hours a night until I reached retirement to now when I can do with 6 to 7 hours, but less than that I can't function properly. I know a senior lady I met at a Bash who never goes to bed. She just sits in a comfortable chair, not a recliner, and takes a few cat naps and that is all she needs.

Teenagers tend to go to bed late and if they can't get up late on weekdays, they accumulate it and make up for it on the weekend. When my kids were in their teens, I never set a time for them and let them choose. It was self assertive to go to bed late and I let them enjoy that, but they got up in time for school just the same. That was never a problem.

Carolyn, I remember you saying that you don't need much sleep, how much sleep is enough for you? I used to love evenings with my husband when all the kids were in bed, at last peace and quiet. I used to nap in the afternoon then.

Éloïse

Eloise said earlier that turning on the TV is a habit, and I think she's right. I have friends who live alone and turn on the TV as soon as they enter the door. The TV stays on, low, even when they have guests and aren't even looking at it.

My kids spent part of their growing up years in Puerto Rico. TV was in Spanish, which they sort of understood, but we didn't even have a set -- we borrowed one to watch the moon landing. Consequently, none of them ever became big TV watchers, and the youngest doesn't even have a TV. The two married ones with children have one TV each in their homes -- in the living or family room. The computers are out in the open areas, not in the bedrooms, and computer time is also monitored, although that's getting harder to do now that they children have more homework. The grandmother of them all spends more time with computers and TV than anyone else in the family.

At my son's house, everyone reads the newspaper at the breakfast table.

"PARENTING AN ONLY CHILD

I think if you have an only child you must ensure they have a companion that can be a sort of surrogate sibling. The girl next door to us had an arrangement with her sister who also had an only chid - a girl. The kids took turns at hosting each other for sleepovers every weekend. This was from an early age. These two girls grew up like sisters and as their mothers said - learned to share and care.

An old friend of my daughters was only able to have one child. When they moved house the next door neighbour happened to be in the same position with an only child. They now have a gate cut in the fence and the two kids run from house to house and always have companionship, Both of the kids I know were always asking for a sibling and comandeering any baby that came to visit.

Our only child neighbour worshipped my children although they were quite a bit older and would cry bitterly if they did not want to play every day with her I think that is when her mother realised she was starving for a playmate and organised the sleepovers with her cousin.

Its fine to have only one child but they do need lots of social interaction with other kids and to make a close friend also.

Carolyn

Have you ever noticed that a child's personality has a lot to do with its birth order? I used to try and guess the birth order of people I met and would hit the mark often. It is less noticeable in seniors, but in young people it is easier. This LINK is interesting in giving us the characteristics of children according to their birth order and the only child.

I found this link looking for the personality of an ONLY CHILD as to why they are often over achievers and you often find them at high echelons in politics, business and science. It seems to me that from birth their parents having concentrated all their thoughts and efforts on this only child, they have acquired a self confidence that the middle children don't seem to have.

It's true that there is a danger in overprotecting or spoiling an only child but the parents you mentioned Carolyn were aware of that danger and made provisions for their child's need for friends and playmates, which they should do, of course.

FDR was an only child.

Éloïse

And unfortunately for Eleanor and the children, FDR's mother had quite a hold on her son. Much unhappiness in that marriage which started, according to many accounts, with Franklin's relationship with his mother. Sue

Eldest children also suffer from a sense of having to be good, responsible and perform well. The youngest child gets away with blue murder usually. (In our family at least this was true) Being the eldest of five children I have suffered from a soberness and feeling of extreme responsibility all my life. The oldest girl in a family( I was also the oldest overall) was expected to take on a lot of responsibility for the younger children from a very early age.

Carolyn

I read a biography on Eleanor Roosevelt ( an amazing woman) and it is quite right about FDRs mother being a thorn in the side of Eleanor.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I had to laugh about the eldest having to feel good and responsible. There were 5 and 7 years difference between my oldest daughter and her two sisters. Whenever I would describe something to her that the younger children had done her comment was, "I would have been grounded for that."

Sue, wasn't FDR's mother quite against that marriage? Poor Eleanor was treated like an ugly duckling. Makes one hope that the MIL is now gagging over all the honor and respect later paid to Eleanor.

But wait a minute. Most great men in history were not such good husbands, had mistresses, they mostly concerned themselves with problems of the nation and gaining or keeping power. Don't they marry first with the proper wife to carry on their name, to accompany them at state functions, to entertain colleagues and help them make alliances?

Don't they have mistresses for pleasure because without that, they would find it too difficult to carry the burden that their high position usually brings? How would FDR have coped otherwise?

Granted Eleonor was not a raving beauty, but she had what HE needed and if he had mistresses, she didn't fall apart probably because they had come to a time in their life when both were satisfied with what the other brought them.

Granted FDR's mother shaped the man but she got what she wanted from her son, the Presidency.

Éloïse

There is a good movie out now that we enjoyed called Warm Springs, you might want to look at it if you are interested in the Roosevelt's Also there is a movie that they have been showing late at night called Eleanor Roosevelt First Lady of the World and it is one of my very favorites.

I saw those movies. Wasn't Franklyn involved with someone when his mother made him marry Eleanor for the good of the family and the country as she saw it. He did as required but I think kept his outside "interests" . . . .Claire

Wasn't FDR with someone other than Eleanor when he died? Didn't he die at Warm Springs? Does anyone remember?

FDR died at Warm Springs, his mistress was also there. If you have ever visited his home there, you can see that they were keeping pretty close quarters. She was not the first, but was the longest. There are several good biographies of Eleanor (I think the best was Eleanor and Franklin by Joseph Lash--may be mistaken about the title and author) that tell about this from her perspective. She also wrote an autobiography, but Lash's was more detailed. Franklin's body was placed on a train and returned to D.C. I don't remember if Eleanor came down to accompany the body or if the Secret Service who were at Warm Springs with him, did. Eleanor is one of the women I respect most of all political figures. She was brave, intelligent, and honorable. After his death, she had quite a career with her newspaper columns and her work with the newly formed U.N. Pedln, I agree that Mother Roosevelt got her comeuppance after the deaths of FDR and herself. BTW, I was raised by a very Republican grandmother who did not like FDR and disliked Eleanor intensely. Fortunately, we had a nanny-like housekeeper who was quite the New Dealer and we sat by the radio with her crying every day that the train progressed toward Washington. I think that's where I got my liking for politics, the New Deal, and the Democratic Party. I was just a young child then. What year did FDR die? Sue

FDR died in 1945 - midApril, I think.

Sue, I remember when FDR died. I liked FDR and didn't care about politics, not even about Canadian politics, but he was a lovable man.

Judy, the show Warm Springs on television made me think about FDR. That show emphasized on his dealing with Polio and showed a loving and loved Eleonor. Perhaps they produced the show to leave the viewer with a good impression. It showed that at the start of their marriage, they were devoted to each other. When he was still a child, I feel that it was his mother who had given him this strength and perhaps she would have objected to any women her son would have chosen as a wife.

That makes me think about the Freud's Oedipus Complex theory. Is there a link between a mother's influence on her son's life and the Oedipus Complex?

Often the strong ties between mother and son is attributed to this, but did Freud think that every mother and son deep attachment to each other is an Oedipus Complex?

Is it true that there is a sexual implication in the attachment between mother and son as Freud often implies?

When a 4 year old boy wants to marry his mother, is it that an Oedipus Complex syndrome?

Good posts everybody and we are all learning so many things.

When my son was 4 years old, he told me that when he grew up he was going to marry "That Girl" (meaning Marlo Thomas). They would live in the house across the street and come over for supper every day. Somehow I was bitterly disappointed that he didn't want to marry me! And that has absolutely nothing to do with Freud and his weird concepts. Keep in mind that Freud based his theories on experiences with his own patients, and those patients weren't exactly normal. I don't hold a lot of faith in Freud.

FYI - By the way, I was born the day FDR was buried - April 17,'45. -JudyS

I was on a school bus when the word came down. I was seventeen and FDR was the only presidnet I'd ever known. . . I'd seen him once when presidents rode the streets in open convertables. This was Apr.12, If I remember and I do because it was so important to me. I was shocked that someof the kids on the bus were glad although many, inlcuding me, were crying, just as I was shocked to find so many celebrating when Kennedy was shot -- in an open car. . . . . CLAIRE

I was 9, was playing at a neighborhood park, and heard some adults talking about FDR's death. I went home to tell my mother, because I knew that "we" were staunch Democrats. I ran in the house to find my mother in tears - the first time I remember seeing her cry. It certainly made a big impression on me!

When Roosevelt died, our elementary school principal called us all into the school auditorium. I was in 4th grade, and remember him saying "Today, all but two countries in the world are in mourning." And I sat in that auditorium thinking, "He's wrong, there are more than two countries that have morning now."

Sue, my family was also very very Republican. I remember one of my aunts coming to the house and saying, "Hitler isn't dead yet because Roosevelt looked all over hell and couldn't find him." It's weird, the things that stay with you from childhood.

I find that so abhorrent that people would be celebrating Kennedys death. I know I was on a tour bus coming home from a Marching Competition 8 hrs drive from home. The tour driver had stopped on the desert road to let us have a look at one of our biggest mountains. Someone had a transistor radio and told us the news. We could not believe it and our coach and chaperone had 30 weeping girls to cope with. I know it was really felt all the way down here. New Zealanders would never celebrate something like that regardless of our political persuasions.

Carolyn

Carolyn and Claire, I didn't hear of any who celebrated the Kennedy shooting. My husband was on active duty and was deployed at the time. I was on my way to a wive's club tea. I can remember what I was wearing. I heard the news on the car radio. I had to pull over to the side until I felt safe to drive. When I got to the home where the tea was, everyone was crying and hugging each other. The skipper's wife said a prayer and told us all to go home. It was a terrible time--and also several years later when Dr. King and Robert Kennedy were assassinated. Bob was in Vietnam then. I have vivid memories of both those terrible days, also. Sue

were mentioned and covered on the news that night and those following. It was probably more newsworthy than covering the mourners. . .shocking . . . Claire

Judywolfs, Freud seemed to have left a bad impression with that Oedepus Concept, but he apparently changed how the world sees itself. According to Freud, all "BEHAVIOR is motivated by the desire to feel pleasure. That motivation is organized and directed by two instincts: sexuality (eros) and aggression (Thenatos)." But I don't think he could speak for all woman's motives as she thinks differently than a man, is less sexually driven and less aggressively obsessed wanting, in her youth, to first love a man, have children and PROTECT them, which is why she avoids conflicts unless her brood is threatened. Perhaps that is why a mother-in-law becomes aggressive sometimes.

Claire, the media aims at shocking their audience by showing someone celebrating JFK's death. I and everybody I knew around me were extremely sad when it happened.

JFK was not an only child by a long shot, but his mother gave America some of its finest prominent individuals. How did she do it? Of course she had money for someone else to do her chores while she could provide her sons with purpose and direction. She was a staunch Catholic believer.

Is faith a factor in giving children direction? What makes a woman like Rose Kennedy raise so many sons to become so politically involved? Did she plan the presidency for John? did she have the same ambition for all her sons, or did they just follow their father's lead?

Éloïse

Rose Kennedy has always interested me. I dont really approve of the competitiveness that she seems to have inbued in her children, but I do admire her ability to inspire her children. I also cannot imagine how she would send off her retarded daughter and let her husband order the lobotomy. Supposedly the son who was raised to believe he would be president was the oldest, who died in the war. I think there is a certain type of mother, who really believes and acts upon an idea that her son or sons will be outstanding. Sometimes this has rewarded us with people like JFK, but sometimes you end up with a spoiled mothers boy who feels that the world owes him.

"I think there is a certain type of mother, who really believes and acts upon an idea that her son or sons will be outstanding."
I think my mother was that type. There was never any doubt in her mind -- and to be frank, I never had any doubt either. It's not for me to conclude that I am or am not outstanding but as far as doubt was concerned, I never had any.

Robby

Robby said: "There was never any doubt in her mind -- and to be frank, I never had any doubt either"

There, that's what I mean. Whether Rose "let" her husband agree to a lobotomy for their own daughter does not alter my feeling that Rose, as far as her sons were concerned, was the vehicle which carried her own world view. What else was there for women at that time to change the world except through her sons. By becoming great her sons made her proud even if her she knew that her girl's destiny was motherhood and for me and countless others it is a great destiny.

For her girls, she wanted to be the ideal role model who would perpetuate her own dream which was to raise sons to become great men in their time.

Robby, your mother made sure you understood early on that she wanted you to be "outstanding" and in spite of her untimely death, you carried that goal in your mind throughout your life. I have to admit, (reluctantly) that you are outstanding indeed, but I won't elaborate on it. mmmmmmmm

Éloïse

I sometimes wonder if the excesses the Kennedy men were prone to had something to do with the expectations their parents had for them and the constant weight of these expectations upon their shoulders.

Carolyn

"I am or am not outstanding but as far as doubt was concerned, I never had any.

how can you relate to the ORDINARY, not OUTSTANDING individual's self doubts? Emotionally you haven't had the experience.

as for OUTSTANDING, what a burden to place upon a child. I only wanted mine to be the best part of himself that he could manage in the environment he encountered. I wanted him to have a clear sense of identity and feel comfortable with it. OUTSTANDING can be a curse.

Claire

Claire, I never felt it to be a burden. My mother knew just the right abount of gentle nudge to give me to reach my (our?) goal. I wanted to try hard. When I won the spelling bee, or had 100 in a particular subject, I received her full praise which, as far as I was concerned, was the greatest accolade I could receive. As I look back, I have no image of a mother shoving me into meeting her goal. It became my goal. And of course my self-esteem rose.

Robby

not fair to get into your head in public so I won't. just one question. How have OTHER women played a role in your life?

Claire

"As a therapist, how can you relate to the ORDINARY, not OUTSTANDING individual's self doubts? Emotionally you haven't had the experience."
That's an excellent question and I am examining myself and thinking out loud as I answer it. I have never had an alcohol problem in my life but I am told by people in this community that I am the best therapist around in the field of substance abuse. I don't know why this is so. I have never considered suicide but have a significant number of teenagers who have had suicidal ideations and I have brought them out of it. I don't remember ever feeling clinically depressed but get letters year after year from depressed former patients thanking me for "changing their life."
I think what happens is this (I am only guessing). My self-esteem is high, Eloise can tell you my car license plate (I try not to let my ego get hold of me) and, working from that personal experience, help others to raise their own self-esteem. This is the best antidote for addiction, depression, or suicide.
All this is only a guess.

Robby

"Not fair to get into your head in public so I won't."
But you did, Claire! However, I'll answer. I was married three times. Marriage with the first wife was OK for a while until psychotic symptoms began to show and she was diagnosed as such by a psychiatrist. My second wife was a lovely woman but alcohol got the best of her and I filed for divorce. Her father died from alcoholism. When I married my third wife, she had already told me that she was a recovering alcoholic. She never drank throughout the 14 years we were together but she cross-addicted to spending and for financial reasons, I had to end that marriage.
A woman clinical psychologist I know says I have a propensity for "finding birds with wounded wings." I have often thought about that and it might be because I had no women in my life after the age of nine.
I answer your question in this discussion group but I would appreciate these personal items not being covered in Story of Civilization.

Robby

Robby's license plate is RBIALLOK. I know because I met him 4 times at Seniornet gatherings. Claire, three failed marriages must be quite an emotional experience don't you think?

Having unhealthy expectations for our children is a BIG burden I agree. My expectations for my children were not forced on them, (except when I took the wooden spoon out of the drawer) but rather trying with all my might to aim for a good formal education which gives one a edge in life, something that I always regretted not having. I can't say I had a high self-esteem though and that is hard to transmit unless one has it.

Robby, If you had no women in your life after the age of nine, figuratively of course, is this why you have the "propensity to find birds with wounded wings" so you can cure them? That must have been a heavy burden to carry.

Of course what we talk about here should not be spread around and it goes the same for those who told me they lurk here. I don't mind that either but discretion is expected of everyone.

Éloïse

Eloise:-I meant no women closely related at home so that I could better understand women and what was important in their life. I had no brothers or sisters and after the age of nine, no mother. I had no aunts living close by. I had no female cousin until I was ten and rarely saw her. The only women in my life were my teachers.
People whose mother remains alive and who have sisters don't realize how much they "absorb" about the feminine approach to life. I never had that.
Regarding three "failed" marriages, could that be considered three successful divorces?

Robby

Sorry Robby, right you are. Sisters, aunts and cousins do make men realize that women don't react the same way to a situation as men do and men who have had that experience fare better perhaps in their relationships, I can't say. Children need/must feel their mother is proud of them, praise them at any cost and love them unconditionally, than why do so many mothers do that and their children still get into trouble?

I realize how fortunate we are to have a Psychologist in our midst and as our discussion will end on Monday, I wish to thank Robby for coming here and share his personal experience with us. It is very touching.

Successful divorces? of course if you say so Robby.

Éloïse

Robby you made me laugh with this one. Your side of the mountain is always in the sun. . .

"three successful divorces?" is that what brought you to the field of substance abuse?

All of this is in the public arena and bound to be noticed by all your friends so you really should have told me to mind my own business and I would have. At the same time it's nice that you're reaching out to women. In your next lifetime you may get to be one and you'll have a better idea of what you're in for. LOL Claire

I'll miss this group after Monday. I think maybe we bonded a little? . . . Claire

I always reached out to women. That was the problem.

Robby

Here is a definite MOTHER-SON ARTICLE good for further discussion.

Robby

I think when we are damaged ourselves by someone with an addiction we do tend to turn into super responsible people. I am the child of an alcoholic and my life was hard because I too felt a need to rescue others.

I ended up marrying a beautiful man but he had bi polar disorder. I thought I could protect him from his illness but I never could. Life was pretty hard for me as when he was sick I had to be his caregiver. Fortunately my husband was high functioning and did well in his career but as my SIL said to me after his death that I was his anchor in life and being an anchor means you have to bear a heavy load. I nursed him also through a long illness with cancer, He got cancer at 43 and died at 49.

I have to say however in all of this I do not regret marrying Rod. He was larger than life,intelligent, creative, terribly sensitive when well and when well did a lot to support me in my career moves. In fact I have not yet met another man who understood women like he did. He also helped a lot of troubled people in his lifetime.

Carolyn

Claire, yes we bonded didn't we, I confess I love two Psychologists, Dr. Phil and Dr. Robby, but they are so different I don't know which one I like best.

Éloïse

Only the one I love best is LAURA LEE READ PHD. my daughter. . . .

Robbby this is about women. . . I just made a page for it. BECOME WOMAN

Hope it works. . . Claire

I think Dr Phil makes things look far too easy. Real therapy is not so easy. I would say he is works more as a Counsellor than a Psychologist. I am not myself approving of Dr Phils quick fixes!

seems to appeal to people who distrust therapy. I have a friend who wouldn't go near a therapist but she's an ardent Dr. Phil watcher. Actually I like movies better, but I read an article once written by a psychologist that advised a person to learn about others through the reading of good novels and great writers, observers of the human condition. I find that a bit slow these days and am into psychological thrillers. Dr. Phil is good at what he does. Nothing there strikes me as wrong but he bores me. To each his/her own . . . . Claire

Carolyn:-I'm glad you separate counseling from psychotherapy. People are often referred to me for counseling and I point out at the start that I am not a counselor. A counselor counsels -- do this, don't do that. I warn them at the beginning that I will never tell them what to do and, sure enough, they find out that I never give them advice.
We work as a team and hold thoughts up in the air together and discuss them. Gradually they come to conclusions. As they gradually drift away from me (which is the goal) they can say that they did something or other because they had thought it through and had come to a specific conclusion, not because Dr. Iadeluca told them to do it.

Robby

Robby that is what mothers do to sons. throw ideas up in the air until they come to their own conclusion. It is just one more of our abilities besides being doctors, nurses, taxiwomen, comforters, home renovators, etc. etc. and that is how we get our children to want a college education. In fact you do what your patients' mother should have done or did and never got anywhere, but a psychologist gets better results than a mother sometimes.

I see so many people who are stuck in their opinions and refuse to change it because they were always in the same frame of mind and after a while, it is like if set in stone. Especially true in the elderly. I find that the ability to correct a wrong thought or behavior is adaptability. The young are more adaptable, but we must continue to be able to adapt to situations, or become crotchety old people.

I don't know who put into my 13 yr old granddaughter's head that she wants to be a Rhodes Scholar but I bet her mother had something to do with it.

Éloïse

I have been really thinking hard about what has been discussed in the past day or so. I really believe that teaching by example is what I did with our children. I believe that you cannot tell anyone things and have them sink in , but you can suggest and you can always try to be the person that you want them to be as well. My husband laughs because our sons are the most honest humans in the world and as he puts it, I am the only person he knows who picks up a penny and tries to find who it belongs to.. Both boys are the same.

Robby I am thankful every day for a young clinical psychologist named Carla. I know if someone had TOLD me what to do it would not have worked. However working through issues with her prompting not instruction enabled me to clearly identify issues myself and therefore healing was possible. It took me almost two years of therapy and five years for the right thinking to become automatic so I am not a fan of the quick fix! The Quick fix often does not last.

Our Mum was very honest and she brought us up with some little homilies regarding honesty. She would explain to us for instance that if we found a purse it might only have a half crown in it but that half crown might have belonged to an old lady and it may have been all the money she had for food for the whole week. The picture of some little old lady starving stuck in our minds and we always handed in anything we found to the authorities.

Carolyn

Number one: Jan Sand sent me an article which I love because it addresses that rigidity which is so hard to understand in people who are smart and who stand by really DUMB ideas. find it HERE if you are interested.

number two? a california psychologist, a famous one who's name escapes me )robby?_ described his method in one of his writings as follows. The group of people, usually no more than six or seven, would arrive and take up seats in the room waiting for the therapist to arrive. They waited for quite a while and when he did arrive and took a seat and greeted then, they all were relieved. It wasn't as if they had gotten the wrong day or hour or that the therapist wasn't coming. All was right with their world. It was time to start, to do something. . . but WHAT?

He looked at them in a pleasant waiting sort of way and said nothing (name is Carl something or other . . robby?) He waited and waited until some of them began to express their confusion and hostility or whatever waiting meant to them. Often, they bonded over this little group activity so that when they did begin to speak they were already a GROUP.

This therapist was known for his echoing technique as well. . something people do when they are showing that they are willing to listen to what comes next. I think mothers could benefit and certainly fathers could. We all jump in with opinions and directions and concerns without LISTENING. . . . Claire

Claire:--You are talking about Carl Rogers who was the proponent of "client-centered therapy" (now called the Rogerian method) wherein it is assumed that there is good in everyone and the therapist helps to bring it out.

Robby

Carl Rogers. He was also ridiculed for his echoing as int

"I m going to jump out the window" .

Rogers;"I'm going to jump out the window" of course a question mark at the end makes it OK, but nay sayers had to have some thing to use as a detraction (my word). . . . Claire

I want to be as candid as you all have been in this discussion so I will give you in two parts an article I wrote for WREX in 2001, and it was my life as a child living during the depression.

"SIX KIDS ON MOVING DAY DURING THE DEPRESSION

The SIX KIDS moved every year on May the 1st from 1932 to 1940. Their ages ranged between 4 and 11 in 1932. It was an exciting day for them. Cardboard boxes of their belongings were stacked against a wall in a room. The kids helped carry boxes outside to the truck parked in front of their flat in the big city. On the street you could see half a dozen old battered trucks piled high with much used furniture, mattresses, rocking chairs, chests of drawers on top of which swarms of kids were perched, having the time of their life.

On that day, almost all the city’s poor moved from one run down flat to another, it was a spectacle that the rich people of the city systematically avoided. It is easy to understand what caused that phenomenon. Welfare paid landlords $12 a month for renting to the poor, but the actual price of the apartment was $15. The three-dollar difference could never be met. A law prevented landlords from evicting tenants except on the 1st of May. The apartments all looked alike. Only the neighborhood was different. For the SIX KIDS they did not know that their new apartment would be more run down than the one they were now vacating.

Soon after arriving in the new apartment the father immediately put himself to the task of stripping the layers of the old wallpaper that had been glued on with flour, attracting hundreds of bed bugs and cockroaches who fed themselves at their leisure. All the children helped with this. They enjoyed looking at what was hidden beneath while dreading to see the pesky insects. Blue, pink, red, brown, all colors would appear as the old strips came down on the floor. It smelled better already.

The new landlord was happy to supply the paint since he knew that his new tenants would move after one year and hopefully he could charge more for a freshly painted apartment. After a few months of stripping walls - it was a slow process – then the task of painting the entire house began. In those days there was only alkyd paint, but who cared, the smell was tolerable for a day or two and the family could enjoy the bright colors for a few months.

The mother’s face was expressionless, she was used to hiding her feelings. She was sick of moving every first of May. She had been extremely beautiful in her youth but by now she had lost all her sparkle dealing with the endless burdens of her life. The grandmother was a cultured woman, a musician who understood and loved art, who was familiar with the names of famous authors, painters and composers. She was well read in the literature of two languages. She associated only with people of her kind. She was a noble woman who was extremely sad to see her daughter fall to that level of poverty. One of her sons, a Lieutenant had died a hero in WW1. A daughter was married to a titled Frenchman. The grandmother never came to visit the SIX KIDS until one day she decided to ask them to come and live with her, thus ending the yearly First of May moving."

The rest is following this.

"Naturally, the children had to change school every year just before final exams. They dreaded the first day in school when they didn’t know one face from another. They didn’t know what the other students had learned before and no one offered to help them catch up. They were looked down upon. Their clothes were hand-me-downs that had seen better days. Most humiliating was to kneel down for prayers and show the holes in the soles of their worn out shoes.

The SIX KIDS were quiet, obedient and tried hard to catch up and usually kept apart from others kids. They never fit in, they were called snobs because of the way they spoke, never having been allowed to use bad or incorrect language at home. They had no close friends. The oldest boy was brilliant. The other five plodded along always trying to adapt to their new environment and struggled to graduate to the next grade. At home and at school, the same discipline was applied firmly but without violence. Food was less than basic many times.

Because the mother had had such a special upbringing, she naturally saw the neighborhoods under a bad light and kept her children under close surveillance. Their house was usually an upstairs flat and the playground was the back and front balcony. The back balcony led to a lane from where the coal for the winter was delivered and hoisted by cable to sheds on the upper floors.

On some occasions the SIX KIDS were allowed downstairs, but she only had to clap her hands twice and everyone had to run home to eat or go to bed. Most winters were spent shivering under the covers when sometimes they had not enough coal or wood. Other times, electricity was cut because of unpaid bills. The mother seldom raised her voice, but a slap would sting an arm of a naughty child when necessary. They never went to a park. The mother’s sadness was like a veil hanging down on her face.

But they had a piano. How come, you say? One year the grandmother generously had a piano delivered, the same one that the mother had played on before she was married. Suddenly paradise invaded the house and when evening came and they went to bed, they listened to her play her favorite classics and sing old love songs. Then she would go into a sort of a trance, forgetting where she was, letting music fill her to the brim with pleasure.

Even when she was working, she gave them a love for music, for literature, for the arts and taught them another language. Their curiosity about the world was boundless and she patiently transmitted to them the culture she herself had received. They learned about other races living in other countries and on other continents. They knew where Paris was on a map. Books were close friends, their accomplice in dreams of a better place. Before they knew it, the kids had acquired the mother’s intense yearning for knowledge and for going beyond what they had known before. They lived a Christian life.

The war broke out. As horrible as it was for the majority of the people, it brought the SIX KIDS out of poverty when the older ones took jobs to support the family.

This is what the SIX KIDS and their children have become: A University professor and writer, a renown artist, a portrait painter, an economist, an engineer, a chartered accountant, a professional translator, two nurses, a truck driver, a film-script writer narrator and producer, a secretary, an administrative assistant, a painting contractor, two business executives and a financial advisor. They are well traveled, most speak at least two languages, some three and live on two continents, three countries and five cities.

During the depression faith sustained the poor. Without hers the mother would have collapsed. She died of old age at 94.

The depression years had left an indelible mark on the SIX KIDS. What they received, they transmitted to their descendants. They pushed their limits, were stronger, more resilient and were better equipped to face whatever life invariably offers than if they had not lived through the depression and the war.

That is why seniors of today have treasures stacked in a corner of their mind which hopefully they will pass on to future generations.

Eloïse De Pelteau

JUNE 2001"

The picture in the heading is my daughter Isabelle and my grandson Anthony. I am fortunate to have have lived in an apartment upstairs from that family for the past 13 years and I enjoy their closeness very much. I hope I am not boring you with my SIX KIDS story but it is all true.

Éloïse

With all this discussion it reminds me the one biggie I learned in recent years, and keep a small art graphic on my refrig as a reminder is, "Nothing Changes if Nothing Changes" and that reminds me as "right" as I think I am nothing is going to change unless I change - that does not mean I must agree with another but it usually reminds me I have a stake in what is going on and if nothing else, something in me is attracting to me the folks I am having difficulty with -

They say most of us attract a partner that has characteristics of a parent that we have issues with that are not settled and by reliving some of the characteristic behavior we think unconsciously we can make it right - again, we think we can change another which we cannot. So as long I that concept of thinking we have the ability to change another continues we will continue to attract folks who we will want to change -

Bottom line we must change ourselves before we can see any movement in others - And now that my kids are grown, I love them so much but, sometimes I feel hurt or forgotten or wounded because of their behavior or lack of the attention I imagine I would like from them. Or if I notice some lack of understanding or acceptance between them it gets to me.

All three of my children are about as different from each other as can be - I have a left over hippy, a conservative almost bordering on religious right and a swing voter so creative the thinking as well as raising of children is creative and would be labeled conservatively liberal. They are the children of an abusive home and after years of therapy that we each took upon ourselves, we all have our issues that can easily bang into each other, hooking us into some sick behavior.

Regardless who I think is unreasonable or how I think they should repair themselves or their sibling relationship, all I can do is change and then, the dynamics change which may or may not be suitable to my imagined outcome - but then, all I can really do is take care of myself.

I've learned when they talk to me about their woes with each other to use some of the old therapists tricks of looking concerned and making sounds but not even trying to explain the one away who is being suggested is the problem - I just say yes, but you see I love you all and you are all so different, I understand you feel hurt what do you think you could do...usually they stop complaining and either stop the conversation with a look on their face I know they are thinking or, they change the conversation with talk about what they like about the other one. Again I just smile and say yes...but I learned never to talk good or bad about one child or their spouse to the other...

I also guts up this year - somehow Easter is no longer celebrated as it was when I was young - and now that 4 of the 5 grandboys are teens, except for going to church, there are no longer the stuffed animals and egg hunts of their youth - I usually get a call from each of them - but I miss the cards we used to send and the small gifts we used to exchange - so this year I called them all on Friday night and asked if they would call the local florist and have them send me over something for Easter and shared how the day was lonely for me and I missed family and just needed some cheering and Easter remembrances - At first I felt awkward and grabby but I realized if I do not let them know how I am feeling and how they can add something to my life than how can they guess - the closest is my youngest son who is 7 hours away - my oldest son is 10 hours away with a heavy foot and my daughter is 16 hours away with a very heavy foot. So the change for me was to guts up and say how I feel and let it be known how they could please me - then it was up to them what they did with the information.

When things are awkward and a visit missed its mark I have learned to get myself to either an Al-anon or an Adult Child meeting and start to look at my part or my expectation so that the idea that anyone has a dumb idea just is not my call - dumb ideas I find are more often simply ideas and solutions to life that are different than mine or my way of thinking -

Regardless if the dumb idea comes from my kids or a stranger...the idea isn't going to change - and I have to consider, can I really change a person from having or holding on to the idea - as long as I think the idea is dumb and therefore they are the other - part of the great unwash - because they have the idea or hold onto the idea we are both stuck with no room for movement or change...

hmmm I wonder if an idea is the basis for truth...hmmm well that is a whole other discussion...but it sure is an interesting thought...

One thing I have learned is to be honest with my kids. If I say something that later I think I should not have said or if I am crabby on a particular day I will phone that child and apologise and say. "I hope I have not hurt you I did not mean to. I love you." I think I have grown up! Alternatively if they hurt me I will not stew about it but phone them later and say. "You really hurt me today by that remark ( or action)"

This approach done in a quiet and reasoned manner has worked wonders in our relationships. The kids have adopted this approach too and it sure stops festering sores in family interaction developing into boils!

Sometimes parents carry behaviours through to adulthood which are very immature and colour relationships with their own children. To recognise these behaviours and learn to modify them is to grow up. I am so glad at last I have grown up.

Carolyn

Eloise:-As you know, I have read your story before but I read it again slowly in detail. What a wonderful, wonderful tribute to the high values and inner stamina of your mother!!

Robby

Eloise I was busy writing away when you posted and only now saw your story - poignant - I wonder did you understand and appreciate your mother when you were little or did it take your becoming a mom yourself before you understood her life?

Thank you Robby and Barbara, Mother taught us French history, Napoleon was her idol, she gave us the French classics, Racine, Molière to read, she had acted in the theatre before she was married. No, we didn't understand or appreciate what she was doing, she never complained, we thought everybody was like us, we thought she was too strict though. It's much later that we knew what an an unusual childhood we had and really appreciated everything she did for us.

Barbara, yes that is a good thing not to encourage complaints about another sibling. My sisters also have refused to listen to any complaints between siblings. We have no degree, but we are Psychologists just the same aren't we Carolyn?

Éloïse

Eloise I never appreciated the wonderful gifts my grandparents gave me til it was too late to thank them. I took it all for granted like kids do. When I say gifts it was not material gifts but understanding and the refuge that their home was from my tumultuous life at my home.

Carolyn

Something has always been in the back of my mind Barbara about this you said:

"Nothing Changes if Nothing Changes" "Bottom line we must change ourselves before we can see any movement in others" That is crucial.

It's fine to hold on to old ideas, they are very comforting and how hard we try to avoid changing even when we see it doesn't work any more. Changing ourselves is the hardest thing to do.

"It it still works don't fix it" the status quo is comfortable, but the future is not something static, it is always in movement and if we don't shape the future, who will?

A mother when her son is born can think: "My son is going to be Prime Minister" or something up there and laugh because it seems so preposterous, but in the back of her mind she has those goals because if she couldn't do anything to improve things in the world, then her son will.

My financial advisor was in his early 20's when I first met him was still a raw, brash and baby faced young man. He told me then that he had learned his trade from his father at the dinner table. He has no university degree, but today he is Vice-President of a large investment firm. No wonder they call childhood the 'formative years' it stays with you forever.

In my family, as children, we had to learn to adapt to change very often and that is what gave us strength perhaps.

Éloïse

SIX KIDS kept my attention, the writing was consistent and well done and It was placed just far enough away in tense to keep it from being a complaint. Hard times in cold weather and living out the winter under blankets. Six kids in close proximity do learn a lot about living with others. I wondered though about the brief mention of FATHER as a stripper of wall paper and applier (my word) of paint. Mother ran a tight ship. What was father doing. . . or maybe I shouldn't ask (gad fly at work -- smile) Claire

do we begin again and what is the subject this time. This is such a nice group and I'm enjoying you all so much, I hate to stop. . . . Claire

Claire, thank you for saying that we are a nice group. I think so too but tomorrow will be our last day, so better say everything you wish to say before we close. I enjoyed your participation very much.

And everybody else too who came to share their personal life, it is heartwarming and makes us very close, I think.

Next Curious Minds will start around June 15th and I don't know what the subject will be, but stay tuned and participate

I wanted to say something about Dr. Phil. If you watch many of his programs you will see that he gives good advice to not only the guests on his show, but to those who watch it, he talks about child abuse, women's abuse, relationships between couples, between parents and children, teen pregnancy and drug abuse and the obese.

He is spontaneous, funny, caring and generous. He is a counsellor, true, but he arranges for free long term therapy and gives those who deserve it generous gifts like free tuition to attend the school of their choice.

There is no doubt in my mind that he is changing the lives of millions of people who don't know who to turn to about their problems.

Éloïse

When I was in the 3rd or 4th grade, I was home for a week with the measles. When I returned the following week, I learned that during that time everyone in my class had been asked what they wanted to be when they grew up. The teacher gave me the opportunity to also answer the question. Unbeknownst to me at the time, every boy in the class wanted to be an aviator and every girl wanted to be a nurse.
When she asked me, I answered "President." Does that tell you something about my mother?

Robby

Did your mother ever spank you Robby?

Never! Neither did my father.

Robby

did your kids ever get spanked?...I did and mine did just a little. It is a quick fix isn't it. . . but not a contemporary thing to do. In My childhood, everyone I knew was spanked at one time or another. It was IN. . . .Of course none of us wanted to be president either. You are truly and ORIGINAL. . . CLAIRE

One of my kids was hyperactive. There were no drugs for this problem then. His impulsiveness often dangerous could only be stopped with a spanked bottom. It was not done often but was related to personal danger. He was such a handful that all of the sales clerks in the stores I shopped in knew him. They would say "Is that you ---- Stirling as he threw one of his famous tantrums while attempting to escape from his reins. I had to have him on a kiddy leash or he would have been killed in one of his great escapes. Reasoning with him was impossible as it went in one ear and out the other and the impulsiveness overode any fear of consquences to actions. His sister was so easy to manage. You could reason with her from a really early age.

carolyn

Thank you for your participation.

This discussion is now Read Only.

A new topic will open on June 16.

Eco Friendly Cemeteries and Funerals

Green Cemetery

Burial Traditions

Eco Friendly Deaths and Burials

Greening Your Final Arrangements

WashingtonPost--New Burial Traditions in America

Memorial Choices

Eternal Reefs

Dare's Reef-Story For Turtle Rescuers

Crossings

Take me back oh hills I love,
Lift me from this lonely bed,
Light my way with stars above,
Curl soft winds about my head,
Wash my feet in crystal streams,
Cradle my arms in boughs of oak,
Breathe the scent of pine for dreams,
Wrap me tight in earthen cloak.

--Appalachian Round

On no subject are our ideas more warped and pitiable than on death. Instead of the sympathy, the friendly union, of life and death so apparent in Nature, we are taught that death is an accident, a deplorable punishment for the oldest sin, the arch-enemy of life, etc. But let children walk with Nature, let them see the beautiful blendings and communions of death and life, their joyous inseparable unity, as taught in woods and meadows, plains and mountains and streams of our blessed star, and they will learn that death is stingless indeed, and as beautiful as life, and that the grave has no victory, for it never fights. All is divine harmony.

John Muir
A Thousand Mile Walk

Welcome all to a very different discussion!
After reading the first article in the links above, I found myself considering how we can make a difference even after we are gone.
Doing a little research(googling!) I found quite a bit of info on how the funeral business is changing. For instance did you know that some families are choosing to ready their dead themselves and have the wake in their own home? That's in the link entitled, Washington Post,etc.
There was much to discover. Things like-- the cost of today's funerals, the number of different chemicals we put into the ground every year, how we can order our own pinebox casket and use it for a set of shelves or a coffee table(I have the page that is on, should you be interested), what some folks in the US plan to offer us---green cemeteries or burial at sea or how to become part of a reef and therefore help the sea life.

Hope you all will read some of the links that are provided and will join us and give us your opinion of all this incredible and, as Ella says, macabre information.

Interesting topic, Ann, and I'm sure we'll get some interesting opinions.

My wishes for my remains are for any still-usable parts to be harvested for transplants, bone banks, vein banks, eye banks, etc. The remainder is to be cremated and scattered. I haven't decided on anyplace specifically - my children have told me that they want to hire one of those planes that flies along the beach in the summertime pulling an advertising banner. They'll make a banner that says "Happy Trails, Mary" (that story is too long to tell), and scatter my ashes as the plane flies along the beach where we go every summer. Frankly, I've not been able to come with an idea that I like better than that one.

ANN: Thanks for introducing this topic.

MARY: I, too, wish to have my organs used if anyone wants them. I had then been thinking about cremation but not what should happen to the ashes. After reading the links and looking at the picture in the heading, I think I would like to be buried in the forest. That feels so peaceful. Since I read that that kind of burial helps the ecosystem it adds to its appeal for me.

I live next to the pacific ocean and that is what I plan to have as my buriel site when the time arrives. maybe next time. . . claire

When my mothers sister Mary Rose passed away as a child in early 1900 in International falls, Minnesota they planted a tree for a marker and when I see that beautiful huge tree I think of our family blood etc. that is in that tree. There was an up to date marker placed there with in the last years by us cousins as she was our aunt Mary Rose Mannausau who was a deaf mute as my sister was.

I love the idea of planting a tree as a memorial. Scattering my ashes in a forest would certainly be an option, but I've usually been a salt-water-person, so that really appeals to me.

My favorite "ashes scattering" story was about those of John's niece's mother-in-law. She had loved for her daughter to take her to a certain casino in Reno, NV. So the daughter wanted to take her half of the ashes to scatter on the carpet in front of her favorite slot machine. I just howled laughing - all I could see was the vacuum cleaner coming along right behind her, sucking all that up.

Sorry - it STILL makes me laugh.

This is a fascinating topic, and certainly makes one aware of the need to let loved ones know what they wish to have done after they pass on.

I've mentioned causually to my children my wish to be cremated, and that I really didn't care what happened to my remains. Some of my relatives have had theirs placed in a cemetary, with the urn fitted into a tombstone. With my kids so scattered all over, that doesn't make sense to me -- I can't see them visiting me. In 25 years I've only been once to my parents' gravesites, and that was just last year.

The Eternal Reefs sound interesting. Need to look at that some more.

As for the harvesting of body parts, I don't think there's anythng left here that would be useful. They don't even want my blood.

Ginny, about that tree that was planted for your Aunt Mary Rose - Do you mean it was planted at the grave site? I wish our cemetery let us plant things - but no, only cut flowers are allowed. In part of the cemetery you can't even place a tombstone, just a flat bronze marker to make it easier for the lawnmowers; they just go right over the graves. I like the idea of a grave marked by a living tree instead of a gravestone. It would seem that the coffin the person was buried in would have to be biodegradable to allow the tree to grow. - JudyS

Ann, Golly it's nice to see you, I have such fond memories of our winter vacation in SC with the Books crowd.

I don't know if the cemetery where my husband was buried is eco friendly or not, I never thought of it. It is located in a small village in the Laurentian Mountains north of Montreal where we were living at the time. The cemetery is full of huge trees and most must be at least a hundred years old, the tombstones are dwarfed by trees. Like Pedln my family is scattered, but I have my place there already and my children also want to be buried there. We don't visit more than about once a year and even my grandson, who didn't know his grandfather, feels attached to it.

I know that most coffins were made of wood before and they disintegrate after a few years leaving just bones and metal parts, so unless several people all die together, there is a lot of room in one plot and on several of the tombstones you see in that cemetery has the name of all the family members for several generations, dozens of them.

Cemeteries are interesting to visit when traveling. You discover you have ancestors who once lived in that place.

The tombstones are upright, some taller than myself, ours is a modest black granite stone about 3 feet high. In Canada I don't know if they have flat stones, I guess because during the winter the ground is covered with snow and people wouldn't know where their plot is.

Éloïse

While visiting my daughter in New York we took our cameras and hit a couple of cemeteries. one so old that the limestone had lost it's printing and with the stones leaning every which way. the old part was full of weeds but there was also a fresh one near the front covered with flowers. It gave me a feeling of history. The eldest one was from the beginning of the eighteen hundreds. I took some good pictures but they are probably tucked in with old slides and everything I do these days is digitized so there they stay. buried like their inhabitants.

My folks have adjoining drawers in a mazelium. . .ugh. . . Claire

I, too, love to wander through old cemetaries when we travel - such wonderful stories to concoct.

Wood coffins do disintegrate with time, but in most of the newer cemetaries nowadays, I think, you're required to have the coffin, whatever it's made of, placed in a metal or concrete vault. The cemetary folk don't want it to disintegrate because then the ground would cave in and sink. As I remember the story about the Green Cemetary in South Carolina (not too far from where our oldest lives), vaults are not used, so the land does settle naturally.

Bugs, Bones and the Body Farm what are you really getting when you pay all that money for a protective coffin?

Interesting article, Barbara. We know about the Body Farm, of course, if only because of Patricia Cornwell's novels.

The situation, though, made me think of our local scandal early in 2002, when more than 300 embalmed bodies were found on the property of the Tri-State Crematory in Noble, GA, just south of Chattanooga. You may remember having read about it. For whatever reason, the owner had received all these bodies and had not cremated them, just returned something substituting for ashes to the families. The bodies were basically just stored around the property. The whole story, as it unfolded, was just incredible. Anyhow, here's a link to Winkipedia's story about the Tri-State Crematory . Definitely a situation for buyer beware.

On the other side of that - I know I saw pictures and cannot remember where - I wonder if it was the Smithsonian mag. - but it had all these bodies laying in the woods in various stages of decomposition - the photos were beautiful with most bodies laying on their side in graceful positions - I do not know if it was the Body Farm or not - but since that is the only place listed on the internet where bodies are left to the elements above ground maybe it was - I thought at the time I saw the pictures what a lovely and natural way to let your body return to the earth. Cremation has always given me the willies...

judy Yes the small tree was planted where the marker would be as far as we know as all her sisters and brothere have passed on so there is no one to ask but maybe some of the other cousins would know any how it is close to the tree and probably a home made wooded coffin as she passed in 1910 or there about.

Ginger

Is another way to go. They get to research our old bones and parts (my husband's heart will give them the go round--he just keeps on tickin', like the energizer bunny)but seriously, we have friends who have in their wills that they want to go to the nearest medical school as they never have enough cadavers. When the school is finished with the body, they will creamate the remains, place them in an urn and send them to the family to do with them whatever they wish.

What did you all think of Dare's Reef or have you read it yet??? Made me think of Mary Alice Monroe and the saving of the loggerhead turtles. And, of course, that made me remember our fun week on the Isle of Palms, Eloise.

I read another article about northern California's newest green cemetery and about a lady who is an artist and has become the "midwife" of family wakes. Diggin'and Cryin'.

She says in here that she has seen body's taken care of by families many different ways and even mentions a funeral parade of Harley motorcycles with the remains place in a carrier for transportation to the cemetery.

Now, I didn't find that so new, since my neighbor's brother was taken to the cemetery in just that manner and then the wake was held in the local Harley club. His wife rode behind the driver and carried his ashes.

I had another neighbor, a retired engineer, who wanted to be remembered as retired and just a farmer so he made his wishes known that he wanted to be dressed in his bib overalls, with a red plaid shirt and his straw hat. I wouldn't have been surprised if she had placed a rake or shovel in his hand,too.

Were you surprised at the Washington Post article on how folks are doing their own preparation of the body and having home wakes?? Do read what you have to do, if you decided to prepare the body itself. Its sounds pretty awful to me. I do know that the Jewish congregations have a special committee who prepares bodies for the families who can't do it. Must go read about the Body Farm now.

And, I know now that tomorrow, I will be writing my wishes for my funeral arrangements. No embalming fluid, a simple pine casket (maybe I will order one and use it for a coffee table, if the maker can stain it to match my woods in family or great room. Tee hee!) A shroud that I will try to design and make. (That's after I get done with the quilt for our great grandchild who is expected in January. Life does go on! Thank goodness.) Maybe I can use the leftover fabrics. Hmmmm!

Be sure to link to the other articles that are at the bottom of Barbara's.

Here's a list of what we do to the earth when we use the burial practices of today. From Eden We Come

My body goes to University of Oklahoma when I pass over. When I signed the papers I signed that they were to dispose of my ashes when done. My parent did the donation also and I received their ashes. They had already their cemetary lots and stone. On the stone read "Together Forever". We placed the ashes in a paper sack and mixed the ashes together and scattered the ashes atop their grave site, making it truely they are together forever. I and my husband both have our grave site and stone all set in the local cemetary as well. We are into genealogy and this helps our future generations to know we passed some time here.

list of manufactured agents/compounds used in embalming

This is what they study The bachelor degree program in Mortuary Science

What kind of Mark will you leave" ~ arranging a funeral Learn the value of taking the time to arrange a meaningful celebration of life. Funeral directors are providing community outreach and education through a variety For a Life Worth Celebrating activities.

17 "Western" designed wooden caskets

Holy Hannah look at the price of these typical wood caskets

Now here are some Discount priced wood caskets that are less than half the price a Funeral Home charges.

Pre-Plan Your Own Funeral Guide

huh - it seems that embalming can be done with Fabric Softner --

Formaldehyde fixation is the often-used, time-tested method of preserving cadavers, but it makes tissue very tough and rigid.

The alternative Fabric Softner to formaldehyde fixation to make the tissues soft and more life-like is time-consuming and will shorten the period of time for which cadavers can be stored.

You are really thinking of the future of medicine when you donate your body to science, Roseda. Our friends who have already taken care of that item in their wills are always urging others to do the same.

Here's a link of natural caskets and urns that made me chuckle, especially the Acorn Urn and the pods. In another vein though, I like the idea of bamboo caskets not only because they will desinegrate quickly but also because bamboo is easily grown all over the earth. Natural Funerals

Barbara, there are a plethora of articles on natural burials. Thanks for all those links.

Roseda, you raise an interesting point -- that by having your headstone you are letting future generations know you passed some time here. So, if one is not buried someplace or does not have a memorial plaque in existence, how will future geneologists track down missing links? (Although that's probably a whole other topic.)

Donating one's body yo a medical school is becoming a tradition in the family, my mother, mother-in-law and my husband have done this.

We have a family plot, but the only one buried there is my father-in-law. My mother-in-law donated her body to U. of Iowa Medical school, and her ashes were spread at the farm. My husband also donated his body to the same medical school. Their dates are recorded on the stone. And when I die, my body goes to the same medical school. All that needs done on the stone, is fill in the date of death.

The only expense is the transportation of the body to Iowa City, IA.

Some time ago I started thinking about burials and it struck me that the arrangements are terribly out of date. The standard memorial of a stone with, perhaps, a brief comment, has about as minimum a value as can be conceived.

Until the last fifty or sixty years the average person had little capability to do much more but modern technology has given almost everybody the capability for creating a memorial radically more informing than what the past has provided.

Most of us now have photographic and sound recordings and films of ourselves and our families that could well be collected and edited and placed in a place of burial in such a way that any visitor could, with proper authorization, access and really get to know the person in the burial site. In future years the material would become invaluable to historians and descendants. With this in mind a person, throughout life, could collect the material and put it aside for the final compilation.

I have not heard of any organization that might do this formally but it seems to me it could be properly organized and could become viable financially at a reasonable cost.

of collecting material for ones death? My father couldn't even bring himself to make a will and he was an attorney. . . claire

You don't have to do it yourself. There's lot's of stuff around anyway from an ordinary life.

I believe that there are ways to collect photos and put them together and give a CD or DVD to the family but I have never heard of what you suggest. Maybe you should go into the business.

I went to the funeral home who made arrangements for my aunt who died in January and who was just buried on June 2 in her home town. She was cremated and those of us left in her little family attended the services. The cemetery is very old, 155 yrs at least, and so there is a collection of our families. And, the trees are so beautiful. I am checking into if they take green burials. The grounds are out on the edge of a little town in Indiana and just beautiful last week. We walked around looking for our relatives, many of whom, back to my great grandparents are buried there. Supposedly my great grans are somewhere in this area and knowing of the handling of funerals back then, I wonder if my great grans are maybe buried on their farm which is still active. Hmmmm! I am interested in searching for them next time I am in the area.

Wow, a whole different perspective. You know that if you want to leave 'organs' after you pass, eyes, skin, cartilage, are also needed and it doesn't matter age or condition. I always thought that not only do you have a coffin but also a vault made of steel or cement to put the coffin in. I know that's true where I live. All those dead bodies lying around is way to bazarre for me.

Annie3 - not only the things you mentioned, but also bones, veins, etc. And who knows what else they'll be able to use when the time comes.

I've sent off for information from the Eternal Reef link. That sounds somewhat interesting to me.

I've already received my stuff from Eternal Reefs and also a solemn phone call from one of their people. I told them that I was only leading this discussion concerning green burials and that I wanted to see what they had to offer.

I read somewhere that the Neptune Society is questionable for some reason or other. I will look that up.

I like giving my body to science and then the ashes being spread over my cemetery ground (do I have to tell anyone other than the family?). My husband and I are having one of those start and stop discussions about this and I finally decided the most sensible thing to do, is donate my body to a medical school and then follow up with ashes over the gravesite. He keeps saying that HE DOESN'T CARE!and I keep reminding him that it would so help if he cared enough to make these decisions ahead of his demise, then, the family wouldn't be saddled with all this stuff and could do what they wanted to do from that date onward. Does this make sense?

It absolutely makes sense, Ann, for you to press your husband for some sort of decision - or at least conversation on the subject.

My sister died in 1996 after a protracted illness (scleroderma) and a month in ICU at Johns Hopkins. And yet, even then, her husband and children had not a clue as to what she would've wanted done. One of them finally said they thought she had mentioned cremation at some point, so that's what they finally did. But it was an agonizing couple of days while they made up their minds. I made a point of staying out of the discussion. They finally decided on the cremation, burial in a regular cemetary plot, and a memorial service held several weeks later.

Those discussions REALLY do need to be held in advance. It makes life (and death) so much easier.

When we lived in Nashville, we had signed the papers to donate our bodies to Vanderbilt Medical School. We've since rescinded those, but really only because they had said they had lots of bodies, and we had moved away. I got to feel much stronger about organ/"part" donation, and feel that I'd rather have most of "me" go there.

Since this is a subject WE ALL HAVE TO CONSIDER ..for our parents perhaps, for our children hopefully not but for ourselves definitely

I am aware of the Neptune Society but have never heard anything negative ..I know they bury ( ?) the body ? ashes ? at sea.

The longer I lived the less I desired a full body burial . having seen what storms and disasters do to old and sometimes new grave sites. And while my mother was buried with my father we kept the expenses to a minimal ..not for the sake of the cost which can be considerable but because I find something obscene about spening thousands of dollars on a funeral If I want to honor someone let me do it while they are alive and can enjoy ..

My husband and I both chose a local funeral home that also has a cremortorium on the premises. We did this before he died and chose what songs would be sung at our funeral , what we would like ( I want balloons and a party after the service) and yes I mean that.

Regardless of how I die I want my family and friends to remember ME , a living , breathing person who enjoyed knowing and loving them amd being loved in return. Whatever remains is of no significance ..My husband is buried at Arlington, He was cremated and so I will be as well,

One thing I was absolutely shocked to see when I went to the funeral home was the cost of caskets offered, We had already said we wanted the one where the sides are temporary and the body is placed on a platform that slides into the cremortorium.. BUT they offered ones with pictures painted on the top so the dead could LOOK at it and even ones that had battery powered music so they could hear! It makes me feel there are some people who wont accept the finality of death..which I find very sad.

We have lots of tapes of the things we have done as a family but to be honest my husband has been dead for almost 12 years now and I have never been able to look at those tapes. Our children all have pictures of both of us and of themselve when they were young and I have pictures of my parents etc but they dont compare to the pictures my mind still holds and those I treasure above all,.

I admire those who have chosen to donate their emains to a medical facility but I am not sure I want to do that ..funerals are extended as it is ..and I am not sure I want my children and grandchildren to wait until what is left to be buried, If there is anything usuable at the time of my death I hope that it can be taken for later but for me I want to be buried so they can get on with their lives..I dont know that is just my thinking...anna

Ahh, Fair Anna, its so nice to hear from you. Wish we still at the beach, don't you?? Well, maybe not, since you and Eloise did so much of the cooking, along with Sandy and ????? Uhhh, where was I?

I do like the idea of donating whatever is needed and then cremating so that time is not dragged out. So, maybe we will consider that also. Me and Ralph! I keep telling him that families become overwhelmed many times and just do too much and spend money where its not needed. Since we have a nearby funeral parlour and they have a crematorium (they tell me that they do almost all the cremations in our area, even pets,) at their main site, I think this option is a good idea.

My husband's parents and his brother and SIL are all buried in the same cemetery in Indianapolis, I have suggested we do look there for a site. My aunt and uncle are there also. The place is filling up with my family.

In my other thoughts, I am prone to go to that quiet and green with trees and grass cemetery in Union City, IN, where we just interred my aunt. Hmmmm!

To an explanation of 'societies' offering different services such as cremation. Societies

I'm still looking for the Neptune Society which I know that I read has over 6 million dollars in its coffers.

annafair said,..."I find something obscene about spening thousands of dollars on a funeral If I want to honor someone let me do it while they are alive and can enjoy .. " I couldn't agree with you more. A week or so ago my husband and I took our daughter, one son and his wife on a tall ship day cruise. If was a considerably pricey day trip, but worth every penney. It was quite a thrill. In later discussion with our daughter we were talking about it and I commented that I would much rather spend the money and a day like that with our children than to put big $$$ out for a funeral. I'm a firm believer than funerals like weddings should be small meaningful family affairs.

Ann, is this the Neptune Society you're talking about?

That's just a link to see if your state has Neptune operating but here's one of the Neptune Societies in N.California N.CA Neptune Society

I am still looking for the original which I had and lost.

To Neptune Society-1985

When I first noticed this discussion I thought that I could not take part in this discussion. However today I feel that I can. Most of you know that I have recently been through the death of my beloved husband, Theron. I was completely unprepared for any of this. We had never really discussed what we wanted done when we died. We were so busy living. We had only been together for five an a half years and we really filled those few years with lots of living. I am left with lots and lots of memories, all of them wonderful. Theron's children and I decided on cremation for Theron. We wanted to share his ashes. They have half of his ashes and I have half of his ashes. On June 25th the half of the ashes that his children have will be interred in a grave site in New York's Catskill Mountains. He had owned this plot for many years and marker is already in place on the site. He bought when his first wife died many years ago. I will leave here on Thursday to go up there for the service. I had a service for Theron here a few days after he died. I purchased a wooden casket. It was completely plain but still completely plain. The wood had a beautiful finish. I had a service to celebrate his life. Then he was cremated and half the ashes sent to his children. The half of his ashes that I have are in an urn sitting in my living room. They will remain there util my death when our ashes will be mixed together. I will buy a plot for us in a local cemetery. My children know what I want and have agreed that it is what will be done. I had a memorial dvd made of photos of the two us together. It was played on a TV during the visitation for Theron. Everyone who came looked at it and all seemed to agree that it was the very thing for someone ,like Theron, who was so interested in technology. I also bought in the funeral package a perpetual memorial website and created a memorial with the photos that are on the dvd. It is a place where people who knew him can go and leave a message or tribute to him. All of this was quite expensive but not nearly as expensive as a regular burial would have been. If you have not looked at the memorial site before you might want to click on Theron's memorial and go take a look. You can also just click on Tributes to read the tributes that have been left and you can leave one too if you wish to. At first I cried everytime I looked at it. Now after six months I can go there to see if there are new tributes and find it is a comfort to me. I also am comforted by his ashes being in my living room.

I feel the Appalachian Round that is the heading here is a very appropriate thing for Theron. I want to use it in some way in the service on the 25th but I may not be able to do it because is children are totally incharge of this service.

I know that most people probably would think that I spent to much money on the funeral and the memorial butit was my money and I did it because I wanted to do it. I wanted to have something for his many friends here in this area to be able to attend to show how much he meant to the community here as well as to me and my family. I think it helped me to be able to cope with my loss.

I think prearrangement is the kindest thing that we can do for our families. It is so hard on everyone when all of the arrangements have to be made after the death.

Joan Grimes

Joan G, Thank you so much for sharing Theron's memorial as you know he was a very special Senior net extend family brother to me as you are a Senior net sister to me.

When my Mother bought her space in the mosoleum many years ago she said that she wanted me next to her so I did as she requested even tho I had to pay interest to them as at that time I could not pay cash but that was the last time that I could not pay cash.

So I will be in a mosoleum that has my name already on it, my mother and sister are in the same cript and I am next to them that so far I do not have anyone to share it with.

This has been a very interesting discussion for me, Thanks to all that has posted here as I have learned alot from you and will continue to read your posts.

You said:"I think that prearrangement is the kindest thing we can do for our families."

That is so true and just today, I received a mailing from BioGift Anatomical,Inc. which is a company a person can use to gift his body to medical science. I am sure there are others out there.

Your tribute to Theron and the family's way of handling his ashes was beautiful. You'll never be sorry for the way that you handled Theron's untimely death. Thank you for sharing how his memorials were planned.

Ginger, you too, have certainly done the right thing by honoring your mother's wishes. And, if you wanted to, you could gift your body to medicine and then have your ashes put in the family mausoleum. Thanks for telling how you are planning for your end.

Hi Ann, My thoughts are not to be creamated as that is hell to me (lake of fire).

I am still working on the end of my life by going thru my things that were moved after the sale of my house by others due to the 24/7 care when mom had her stroke and am also going thru my mom, dad, sister and my things even yet but am glad to say that I am down to the 3 car garage behind the 3 car garage in front (dad was a constustion worker with trucks en al thus the big garage) my cleaning will put less of a strain on those that will inheirt this house some day (no hurry) as I am in good health and must take care of this while I am in good health as some of us wait till we can't.

From BioGift Anatomical,Inc, my question to you all is: Does this company make money by selling your body parts to medical science? They certainly make it easy for you and the family by taking over the donated body and checking where the parts are needed. After they have used what is needed, they cremate the remainder and will send it to the family, if so wanted.

We have signed the back of our drivers' licenses for donation of what is needed but I am unaware as to how that is handled so will be calling the state office that takes care of this to see how it is handled.

Does anyone here have any other ideas or recommendations for donating one's body to medical science??

Ann, if you want to know about donating a body to medical science, contact the nearest medical school. That's where the whole bodies are needed for anatomy classes. We had contacted with Vanderbilt University Medical School in Nashville when we lived there, and they had forms, etc., even back in the 1960s.

As for organ donation, I'm not sure how that is handled. I think if I were concerned, I would check with a large teaching hospital in my area. Or, go on line and contact Johns Hopkins or the Mayo Clinic or some other such well known entity.

I think you have some good advice regarding donating your body after death or parts if they can be used ..Since the hospitals remove the parts I would call your local one and see how they handle that ..I would be suspicious ( I am always suspicious or organizations that seem to make money from a service) of any group that says they will take care of all of this for you. A friends whose parents donated their bodies ( they were both alcoholics and wanted them used to discover what harm to organs alcohol had done) I know they each donated thier body and a hospital in Richmond ( about an hour away) came in an ambulance and thier daughter signed the release papers for them to take the body...No money changed hands , it was all done through the hospital ...

We do whatever we need to do to help us deal with the loss of a beloved person. Six years ago I lost a beloved companion of 3 years and his family gave me part of his ashes to be buried with mine someday..My children know and since they loved and admired him I know they will follow my wishes. I drove to Oklahoma for his memorial there and they read a poem I had written for his funeral and according to his last wishes his ashes were sprinkled on a lake where they had spent many family campsites. They still keep in touch , remember me on mother's day, and Christmas each year. I dont often share such private information but sometimes life gives us another chance to share with some who has lost another too. The wonderful thing about it you get a chance to add to your family and suddenly it is larger and better and everyone benefits..

anna

TAKE-OUT

"I want,"
He said,
"When I
Am dead
To be most neatly kept.
My eyes
Just closed,
My frame
Relaxed
Just as if I slept."

"All rot
Must cease.
I'll pay the fees."
He cried, like King Canute.
"For I must freeze
At two degrees
Cryogenic absolute!"

So, sure enough
His friends
Did stuff
Him in a vacuum bottle.
Stiff and blue
Was their last view,
With a cork stuck in his glottal.

The Sun
Did burn,
The Earth
Did turn
Two hundred million spins,
While time
Did pass,
Beneath the grass
Where our frozen friend still grins.

As species must,
Mankind was dust,
But mind must have a site.

So, dogs and cats
In hats and spats
became somewhat more bright.

A feline digger
Couldn't figure
The frozen sarcophagus.
"What is this thing
Some ancient king
Sent through time to plague us?"

He did pop
The thermos top
And slid out frozen friend.
The flesh
Still fresh,
Turquoise skin
Like a djinn.
This could cat comprehend.

So, wrapped in foil
And fried in oil
Our friend turned crispy brown.
With vintage wine
The taste was fine
When feline gulped him down.

But doubt still gripped
This cryptic crypt.
The cat had not a hunch
Why mankind
Had so inclined
To send him a boxed lunch.

Such a good one, Thank you Jan!!

What a wonderful inventive mind and poem ..A good one for sure ..anna

Great poem, Jan.

I got our mailed information from Eternal Reef today. It certainly is an interesting concept - if a bit pricey. A reef "ball" for one person is $1495, after you get the ashes to them. (I probably shouldn't say that our oldest granddaughter is a scuba diver and a marine biologist - hmmmm - that's something to think about.)

Love your poem! Quite funny and inventive!

Anna

As usual your common sense rises to the top. How right you are!

MaryZ

Yes, I saw that single ball but read that two urns of ashes can be rested in the smallest one. Have you watched the movie yet? I haven't had the courage.

What do you all think about the article Crossings??

From the Washington Post about families who are bringing the tradition back of caring for the deceased in their own home. With the help of a woman from Crossings, a company that she founded.

Ann, I watched the 10-minute video this afternoon. It was touching, and an interesting story as to how he started the service, and how it works. Not a hard sell at all.

Mary Z, I've been studying the Eternal Reefs on line, but have not requested the free kit. The pricing seems to be based on an insurance plan. I'm not sure I understand why, in a single payment option, that it costs more the older you get. Did your kit explain?

I grew up in an Irish Catholic community at a time when children were not left with baby sitters or omitted from life happenings so whenever someone died my parents took me along No one thought it was a bad thing to do and for me it certainly wasnt..Unless it was the death of young child or from an accident they were celebrations of the deceased life and I can remember it being a rather joyous event. There were some in funeral homes ( and I recall other young people and I playing hide and seek there and no one thought it wrong ) but I also remember the funerals held in the homes..no solemnity but stories about the departed and laughter at remembering..And food to eat ..it was in my mind and still is the best way to say goodbye.

I realize that when you have a lot of people coming in you might not want to do it in the home and in this day and age you might feel uneasy about all these people , some you might not know but there were always volunteers who would oversee the visitors as they came in and a welcome and a thanks for coming was the order of the day ..

I dont know to me it was a very civilized way to say goodbye and for the most part the deceased died in that home..and that is the best way to go I am convinced ...just my opinion ..anna

pedln, it didn't explain why the prices got higher as you got older. I guessed that it assumed that if you bought it when you were younger, it would be further "pre-need", and they'd have your money for a longer time. But I don't know that for sure.

I agree with you, anna, about having the people in the home - but I don't really think that's generally doable now. I can imagine having a service somewhere, and then adjourning to the home for visiting, food, and celebration, though. In our part of the south, frequently, there is a visitation at the funeral home to express condolences to the family, which may be the day before the funeral, or for several hours before the service. My friend's husband died last month after a long illness, and was cremated. There was a 2-hour visitation at the funeral home, and a few informal remarks were made by family and a minister - not a "service" in the usual sense of the word. And that was all. The ashes were buried later in another state.

In contrast, our friend who died suddenly last summer (on a Thursday), had a visitation at the church (Episcopal) on Saturday, a funeral service at the church on Sunday afternoon, then burial at the cemetery on Monday (they don't open/close graves on Sunday at that cemetery), then back to the home for food and fellowship.

The older you are when you start it, the more it costs since you death is closer and the companies want to make sure that they get some of your money.

Tonight my husband and I are going to the home of a family who have been our dear friends for years, where they are holding the visiting hours for their sister who died 2 days ago.

A funeral home is involved, as far as providing transportation of their sister's body from the house to the church tomorrow morning for the funeral mass, and then to the cemetery for the burial. But the wake is being put on entirely by the family.

This evening's wake will be just as you described your childhood memories, Anna. The coffin will be in the living room, the children will be running about, the friends and relatives will bring food and drinks and will offer stories, memories, trips to the store to get more chips, etc.

Late at night, things will be quiet, there will be soft lighting, and always someone sitting peacefully with the body; perhaps dozing in the comfortable chair, or talking quietly with a friend, until morning.

It is still ok & legal to do this; well, at least in Troy, NY. -JudyS.

Judy, it sounds like it'll be a great send-off for your friend's sister. And I would imagine will give wonderful closure to the familiy. As I was reading, I was going to ask you where you lived. I wonder how that would go over here in the south. I don't remember ever having heard of anybody doing that.

John has his "service" all planned - it's way too complicated to write in detail, but it involves cremation, family, friends, keg beer, open bar, and food, a money-making project for the Junior Rowers, and the Tennnessee River.

Thank you Judy for sharing that interesting bit about your friend's plan for their relative's wake (or whatever you like to call it). I recall a home funeral when I was a child. It was sad of course for the widow and family after a long and happy marriage and family life, but as you said it was a peaceful and nice gathering of friends and family. The deceased man had been a minister and his passing, though sad was just going on to another phase of his life.

I felt when my Mom passed away here in my home that she was "finally" going to be with her beloved Bill and at age 91, she was more than ready to leave this earthly life because of her poor health and because she missed my father so awfully much. When she passed it was not at all what I might have thought. She had rambled on about Dad and her parents for days and was reaching up as though they were hovering right above her bed calling for her. I have felt a lot different about death and dying since that time. It seems more to me now like a natural part of birth and living.

My Dad was buried in a traditional manner, but Mom made her decision for cremation in her later years and we took her ashes to their shared gravesite.

This has been such an interesting discussion with many,many good ideas for final arrangements. I like the idea of giving my body to a medical school, but one of our sons has disagreed with this idea. Also for some reason he is opposed to cremation. He hasn't been much of a religious person during his adult life, so I'm not just sure where this comes from. As for the donation of the body to a medical school, he has expressed some thoughts on the mutilation of the body. Again, I'm not sure of the background of these thoughts. In my way of thinking when I die, my true self is gone from the body that was just the home that I lived in here on earth. Any help in these areas? Mary C.

Different funeral arrangements here today.

From the two articles at the top about home wakes, I assumed that that is a possible thing to do. I asked a funeral director about it yesterday and she said that the laws in each state and city and cemetery are not set in cement and that they are all different and sometimes fuzzy legally.

I like the idea of a home wake and do remember going to one as a very small child. I was allowed to peek into the casket to see a very old lady who was the mother of the next door family but much more than that, I do not recall.

My grandfather, a one-hundred per cent Irishman, always said he wanted to be propped in the corner while the mourners celebrated his life with a keg of beer and lots of good food. He lived to be 90, died in the hospital, calling out to his brothers while they all drove a train, supplying the coal plus doing the engineering. His six brothers plus his father and FIL were all railroaders over their long lives. At his funeral in the mortuary, many folks arrived to offer condolences but my grandmother sat in the back parlour, receiving people and just quietly talking about their 65 years together. A young man sat in the back of the larger room, sobbing his heart out. He and my grandfather had become good friends over the few short years that my grandparents lived near his home.

I think the Eternal Reefs pre-need insurance policy is more expensive due to the fact that if you buy it when you are older, the insurance company has to pay out sooner.

Mary

I think my husband's idea of our bodies being "just the box we come ins" fits in with your thoughts. I don't know about your son's feelings but I will say that the arrangements in this case, should maybe be your doing. Its a hard call when someone objects to what you might prefer. I think that is why my husband says he doesn't care about the end arrangements. Its up to the family.

I do believe JoanG's offering that preplanning is the kindest thing a person can do.

My brother always said that he could not attend our grandparents' funerals because it was too upsetting but we convinced him that he wasn't there for the deceased but for those left behind. He did come to both funerals after much urging from all of us.

I do know that it is hard to think of a loved one being used for medicine so I just try to ignore that part of it since it is a very good thing to do.

I was surprised when someone here mentioned the fact that she had made arrangements?? for her body body being sent to the medical school and that the school told her that they had plenty of bodies.

And one other thing that came to me is that many churches have mourning rooms where the family and friends can visit together before the funeral service. The one that I attend has quite a huge room that can be used for this purpose but I don't think that its very often been used.

a couple of years ago and the night before the funeral there was a "Viewing" at the funeral home from 7 to 9 p.m. Friends, neighbors, and family were all there, and the casket was open with the body to be "viewed", and everyone visited and introduced themselves around very much as though it was a party---with no refreshments, of course. There was even some laughter from time to time. I think it was probably much like the wake that you described and probably gave comfort to the deceased's family to have so many come by. But my husband's sister (and sister to the deceased) was appalled. She thought it was bizarre.

My own reaction wasn't quite as extreme as hers but I have to admit it wasn't exactly my cup of tea. "Viewings" seem to be fairly common in this part of the South, at least, but they won't be something that I would want to have, I don't think.

I know my children wont oblect since I cant be buried with him at Arlington unless I am cremated too...I have been very emphatic about the balloons and food ..I want them to CELEBRATE MY LIFE I just cant feel too strongley about that and since I have always been sort of "looney" I am sure they will have lots of funny stories to tell...I want my friends to leave thinking "That anna was something else!" and be glad we walked a way together..anna

Since that was normal when I was young it seems normal to me now...in most instnaces the person being viewed looks serene and peaceful and if you have seen them in pain and ill I think it is sort of nice to see them at peace,.I know my father died at 65 and had been ill for a long time ..at the wake he looked like a picture of himself taken at 30..and I cherish that view since for years all I had seen was him looking so ill. And the viewing isnt for the dead but for the living ..a chance for one last look at thier beloved face and for letting go.. it is a rite of saying goodbye and moving on...for some I guess it isnt needed but for me it was...anna

VISITING

Come! Let's gather blueberries
In the garden of the deads
Where grandmommas and grandpappas
Rest their old gray heads.
When our pails fill full with berries,
Sitting near the stones we hear
Old ones dreaming under grass,

How the songs they sing are clear.
Songs of skies, of mud pies,
Of birds and trees and clouds and plants.
How they'd love to see you now
If they just could have the chance.
Songs of stories, cats and bells,
Cows that jump and dish and spoon.
But then, it's time to say goodbye.
We hear them sing,"Come back soon!"

What a lovely poem! and good thoughts about cemeteries and our long lost grandparents! I believe its in Europe where families go to celebrate their ancestors, stringing flowers on their headstones, picnicing around the graves and enjoying a beautiful while they remember happy times when their dead were still around. I think that I read that its a daylong happening. They are very comfortable in the cemeteries around their long gone ancesters.

I still haven't been able to play the tape about the Eternal Reefs. But without too much going on today, I will do it.

Ann, If I'm not mistaken, I believe that those days of celebrating the dear departed and decorating the cemetaries were done here in the US years ago. Mary C.

But I'm hoping with the new green funerals and the bringing of the wake back into the home that maybe we will not be so skittish about the final happening in our lives, aren't you?

My family does decorate the graves of their loved ones on day that a loved one died and always on the days dedicated to the war vets.

And, my sister goes to the cemetery just to commune with our mother once in awhile. She also has been able to visit our grandparents' grave on occasion, after we located it.

I was just thinking about the trouble it must cause families today who are trying to trace their ancestors. Since we all such gypsies in my family, we won't be buried in the same towns let alone the same states. There should be a national website for all the cemeteries to list the people buried there. I know its quite a job just to get a list together for every cemetery in this country but there are folks out there who delight in doing just that.

I have a friend who went looking for a great aunt's place in one cemetery and when she finally found her, she offered to bring her laptop to the cemetery office where she used the records to lay out a map for them.

There's a cemetery in Indianpolis who are online and you can find who you are looking for along with directions to that grave. It could be done!

You are so right Ann! We have "stumbled onto" a neurological disease in our family that is genetic. We have tried to find out if there was anything that resembled it in either of our families (none in the immediate living members and none that anyone can tell us about in the recent past generations.) I've found that it is pretty hard to locate family members who would be connected directly to us in another country and most folks are reluctant to talk about anything that might point to any family flaw (?) The best we can figure is that this is a mutation of a gene OR that one of us has a low gene count that might never produce symptoms. There is also the possibility that one who had the positive gene may have passed before any symptoms developed. It is a disease that often manifests itself at ages 38-50, but has been know to show up in later years. In this type of situation it would be so good to be able to trace family members. I know that one of my grandfathers disappeared and no one of my father's generation ever knew where he went or when and where he died, so that is a cold trail. Small country cemeteries would likely be very hard to get complete records from.....if you even knew which one to look at.

Isn't it the Mormon Church that has such extensive geneological records? I've wondered how that strong interest developed there and why. Perhaps someone here knows the answer to that question. Mary C.

Viewings are normal here as well and have been as far back as I can remember. I thought that is how everyone did it. A typical obituary would read viewing thursday 7 to 9 at the funeral home and also at the church on friday morning prior to the service at 9 am. Prayer service at the funeral home at 8pm. Then after the service is done, it is announced where the lunch will be and that everyone is invited.

Oh and I also wanted to say, the poem is beautiful, I enjoyed it very much.

I am not sure that this is the proper venue to present my own personal views on the disposal of human remains but I have found no other place and perhaps people will not be offended by my own personal viewpoint. I am certainly not trying to create a negative atmosphere, merely presenting my personal feelings.

I have lived a relatively long life and have lost three people important to me so far, my father, my mother and my son. It has been ten years since the loss of my son and longer for the loss of my parents and I do not know nor care where my parents are buried. What I retain of them remains in memory and those memories are still very precious. My son was cremated and a bit of his dust is buried not far from where I live and I do not need to visit that spot to evoke the strong tragedy of his loss. His life was very difficult and I spent the bulk of 30 years trying to alleviate his difficulties before he died and he and my parents visit me frequently in my dreams.

I respect but do not understand the tremendous emotional ties people seem to have with the organic bits left behind when people die. What is important to me of the dead is the memories of who they were and how they helped me become myself as I matured. These are an integral part of my daily life and my gratitude does not require any special ceremony to re-enforce their impact on my life. My mother’s body was spirited away to be buried by her relatives from the hospital where she died without informing my father or my brother and me. It seems, in retrospect, to be a disgraceful act, but speaks mostly of their emotional limitations and immaturity and there is no point for me to care much about it. My father died and was cremated and I have no idea what happened to what was left. I do not care.

When my father died there was no real ceremony, merely a non-religious gathering of friends who spent a quiet hour remembering.

When my son died there was a gathering of people in a pseudo religious ceremony although none of us are believers. The ceremony was largely a bidding goodbye by people who might never come together again, many of them hospital personnel where he spent about 30 years as a quadriplegic.

In general I find the industry which uses its emotional leverage to take advantage of tragedy to take money from people in great distress is reprehensible and a suggestion I made in a previous post for technological preservation of the cogent memories of people gone seems to me to be a much more worthy use of the money spent. But this is a very personal viewpoint.

That is what a discussion is about ..sharing our points of view...You have respected everyone else's point of view and I know they will respect yours. You remind me of my father because he would always say "Just put what is left in a toe sack ( a potato sack if anyone doesnt know) and toss me in the Mississippi"

I live far from the graves of all my family and even my husband .I couldnt visit easily even if I wanted to. So my memories are all I have to celebrate their part in my life. When I do make the journey to Arlington I dont take flowers , I feel my tears and memories are sufficient and I go mostly because it is where I will be someday and I like to look around and see what a tranquil place, I know whatever is left of me does not matter when I have departed. I am a believer and do believe that death is not the end..But when I am finished with this corporeal body I really dont care what happens ,..in fact , except for my family wanting my ashes to be buried with thier father I would not care. When I took a train trip to California the tracks in some parts were the only means except by foot to reach the areas where the train moved..I was awed by the majesty of those high peaks and thought then as I do now If I had my way my ashes would be scattered there,.The idea they would be blowing in the wind forever appeals to me.

All I have of my family are my memories which are rich and make me appreciative of being thier daughter, sister, niece, cousin or friend. In life I have been blessed in the people I cane from and in the people I have met the memoires they have left are true treasures ..they warm my days and give me wonderful dreams at night.

I love the photos I have but even they are not necessary since my mind sees them clear.As a contibuter to this discussion and to this program your opinions are always welcome and valid ..

The memory I have from the viewing when my husband dies is so funny I wanted to be alone after everyone had left and I stood there and felt a need to kiss my husband one last time But I am only 5' foot and the casket was on a bier and I couldnt reach him so I looked arond and found a chair and carried it to the casket but after I was on the chair I realized that if I leaned in to kiss him I would most likely fall into the casket and I could see the lid coming down on both of us and the whole thing falling and making a huge noise. So I put the chair back and laughed to myself and just kissed my fingertips and touched his lips. I have kept that memory rather private but know if I had completed my plan and the disaster I envisioned had come to pass my husband would have laughed and said OH ANNA How like you!

We all recognize death is coming ..and for each of us we have to handle it as we need ..My one brother journeys back from Ohio to Missouri each year to place flowers on his first wife;s grave,. they both do and I guess it is some comfort to his second wife that death doesnt end his feelings or make her less real .

I appreciate your honesty and your sharing and know everyone else will too. Thanks for both and for your contributions of your poems..Now I will never know you in person but your poems will be remembered and cherished as long as I live...and that is gift ..for which I thank you.. anna

for your honest and forthright expression of your feelings. You say very clearly in a courteous manner what I feel. I truly did not mean to offend anyone with my opinion on "Viewings". We all deal with these life issues in the ways that give us comfort. I happen to have a very strong visual memory and carry the picture in my mind of my loved one as I last saw them lying unnaturally positioned and still in a coffin when I would rather have only the picture in my mind of them as they were when they were alive and moving and speaking. And I, too, do not visit the graves of my parents or my brother who are all buried far away. But even if they were buried close by I wouldn't visit their graves because to me they aren't there. They exist now in my memory and in the memory of the life we had together. There is nothing of them in a piece of ground somewhere.

I hope that whomever makes the decision after I am gone will feel as I do but it really isn't up to me, is it? What they decide to do with my body is a choice that will give them comfort because I won't care, will I? I would hope that they wouldn't waste a piece of precious land for it. There will be money in the will designated for the purpose so the expense hopefully will not burden those who cared for me and other than that it will be their choice for it will no longer be of any concern to me. If they feel it necessary to attempt to "follow my wishes" then I would say that I have always loved the mountains and to let the wind carry me where it will.

This is a poem that has always given me comfort. There are several versions but supposedly the author claimed this as the original version.

 
Do not stand at my grave and weep, 
I am not there, I do not sleep. 
I am in a thousand winds that blow, 
I am the softly falling snow. 
I am the gentle showers of rain, 
I am the fields of ripening grain. 
I am in the morning hush, 
I am in the graceful rush 
Of beautiful birds in circling flight, 
I am the starshine of the night. 
I am in the flowers that bloom, 
I am in a quiet room. 
I am in the birds that sing, 
I am in each lovely thing. 
Do not stand at my grave and cry, 
I am not there. I do not die. 
		-Mary Frye

I loved that poem, Phyll.

Macou mentioned an old tradition of spending a day at the cemetery. Ever since the Civil War, On Decoration Day (May 30), people were expected to place flowers on the graves of the war dead. Little by little, that practice expanded to putting flowers on any old grave, not just military men who died in battle. Now it’s called Memorial Day and it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with honoring people who died in war.

When I was a little kid, our family hung out at the cemetery quite a lot, not just on Decoration/Memorial Day. My grandparents, my aunts and uncles and my mother would pack a picnic and off we’d go bringing big bunches of lilacs or daisies to put on the family graves. We children would run around playing tag and hide & seek, and when we were tired of that, we’d listen to the grownups tell family stories about “Old Aunt Maggie” or “Poor Josie Who Had No Shoes” or “Honest John From Kilkenny, ” while we ate the picnic lunch sitting on a blanket spread on their graves. Our photo albums have lots of pictures of smiling, laughing people gathered around family gravestones.

Yes, your opinion here is what we expected when it comes to funerals and cemeteries. Thanks for you openness and for the lovely poems that you left.

Anna

I can just see you trying to reach your husband as you are slightly loonie as am I. How else would I have thought of this discussion? Tee hee! I hope you all will go see the caskets and the urn on that one page where everything is wicker. Gave me quite a chuckle when I saw the urn! Wicker is the way to go?? Be sure to roll down to the bottom of the page and see the wicker urn. I want want one!! hahaha!

Phyll

Certainly your opinion is valid and you couldn't have expressed it better. My husband's whole attitude agrees with your so you are not alone. And I have always liked that poem.

As for me, I was trying to help my family with some directions or wishes as what to do with my body. I will now add to my will that I want to be given to medical science and they can decided where the ashes will go. I do love oceans and lakes and water, so my husband says if that's what I want, he will return with my ashes and just flush me! The man is so dry and funny!

Sometimes we have not choice at all, like in 2003, when I almost died, there were no directions in my will so who knows what they would have done. And, would I have cared?? I don't think so!

Today as I was driving my 5 yr old grandson, Noah, from summer school to scout camp where he was to join his family, he asked me where I was going after I died. I told him I was going to fly all around and then fly to heaven. He informed me that I would not fly as I would be in the ground. He also said he will be really sad when his moma dies. What makes him think of these things?? Got me! But he made me chuckle! Should I die soon, before that, I must remember to put in my will, that it would be nice for the family to have a secure place for my ashes and my husband's so that later, family genealogists can at least locate us. Hmmmm, maybe the back yard or just a plaque with our birth and resting dates on it.

On the way to my son's house, there's a sign in field next to what used to be a strawberry patch where my kids were paid to pick strawberries. On it is a memorial dedicated to the couple who once owned that house and that strawbery patch. Unusual! I wonder if they are buried in that field?? Who knows!

You make it sound so natural! I haven't ever done that before and I didn't know that folks from the US did that.

Maybe it's more of an Irish Catholic thing, Ann. It's very sad when someone dies, but not gruesome. I was brought up to look upon funerals, wakes, and cemeteries as perfectly normal and acceptable. - JudyS

My parents were from a mixed marriage LOL by that I mean my father was Catholic plus all of his 14 siblings and my mother was Protestant and all her 11 brothers and sisters. But out of deference to my Irish grandmother who lived with us when I was young my mother kept the feast days and all the funerals I went to were Catholic for the most part ..I dont recall any of them being solemn affairs ..which surprised me when I first went to a funeral in another church..it was so solemn so I think when I am ready it will be fine with me..to celebrate with funny stories and some really good food and drink...Plus I had to grow up and leave home before I realized everyone in the world did not eat fish or Fridays //and I am not kidding..

Some deaths are such tragic events you certainly couldnt celebrate them but when age is the cause then I feel it can be different. Off I go ..we are having rain and I want to do some quiet things ..anna

Ann, your hubby IS a sharp thinker!!

This discussion is so honest and realistic about the matter of living and dying.

Judy, I'm not an Irish Catholic, but I believe as you that dying is a natural part of living and we are on that route from the time of our first breath.....sometimes a longer journey and sometimes shorter. For the person who spoke of losing a son after many years of disability, my heart goes out to you. As I mentioned earlier, our eldest son has a progressive neurological disease and the past fifteen years have been a struggle for him and for us as his advocates. Today he was sent to the hospital to be treated for pneumonia which has been going on for about a week. On one hand we want him to recover and on the other hand recovery is going to bring him back to a life of waiting for either another bout of Pneum that will take him or something else that will do the same and in the meanwhile he can't walk, talk or eat.....so what do we pray for?!? We love him so much, but hate seeing him going through this kind of life. Those who believe, please pray for guidance for us and comfort for him. Thank you. Mary C.

If I die young or old, "natural" does little to justify it for me. The word in this sense means it has always been this way and I can do no more than accept it. All medical science is a protest against this. My very secular outlook is that we are machines and the breakdown of the machine can and should be fought to our limits and the limits should be extended to the best of our capabilities. I celebrate every advance in that capability.

I am an old, old Irish Catholic but don't remember doing the cemetery remembrances but did spend a lot of time with my grandparents where the family stories were constantly flowing.

Jan

Have you ever read Lewis Thomas book, The Medusa and the Snail, Notes of a Biology Watcher? In it, he compares life and death to the poem by Oliver Wendal Holmes entitled "The Deacon's Masterpiece", in which Holmes tells the story of how a shay should be built.

Lewis Thomas says that our bodies should be like a well built one horse shay. Here's a link to that poem, The Deacon's Masterpiece I hope you enjoy reading it.

WEATHER

The hurricanes that rip rivers
From the sky and wail agonies
Of wind shall, in our lives,
Sail through our flesh
In choking storms of regret,
Tumults of screaming terror,
Raising huge tides of tears,
Lightnings of love
And thunderclaps of hate.
We must all endure this weather
Through our lives, plant stolid feet
Upon the ravaged earth,
Face into the storm
Until a gust beyond conception
Whips us off into the clouds.

Jan, those thoughts are so close to my husband’s thoughts! He can’t believe I’m telling the truth when I say that even if I stay in relatively good health, I still don’t want to live a long, long life. He certainly agrees with the line from the poem “Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.”

Oh yes, AnnaFair, I too was amazed at how solemn some funerals can be – so quiet, and restrained. Everyone whispering and tiptoeing and not smiling. Instead of hugs, civilized pats on the shoulder are exchanged. If someone starts to get teary eyed, they try to conceal it by bottling up their sadness, and if someone starts to cry they quickly run off, instead of turning to their gathered friends and family for consolation. I thought it seemed scary, like some secret event going on or something.

Mary, I guess every single breath you take during this hard time is a prayer. -JudyS

I expect to explode on my three hundredth birthday

I forgot to say that Lewis Thomas is a wonderful writer and this comparason is a super idea of how we should come to death. Do read it. I used to have a copy of the book and quoted it all the time but when I went looking for it for you, I was at a loss because its just not here.

Another good poem!

300 years??? Well, not me, as my parts are already being replaced here and there starting with a heart valve and I'm not too confident that man-made things will last 300 years.

Well my family was German I had one grandfather who was Irish on my mother's side but all the rest were German and we always had funerals at home with lots of beer and refreshments and singing and laughing and kids all over the place - When my parents died we did use a funeral home because the house was not big enough but again, it was family members who had not seen each other in a few years and so it was like old home week with everyone sharing and talking and catching up with each other - a few of us at a time would go up to talk a bit about the one in the casket draping ourselves on the edge of the casket lid as if at a kitchen table and when my father was laid out the men all had to put cigars in his jacket pocket to make him look like who he was...

Then folks took turns going out to eat sharing more memories of things we did - I remember asking my aunts about my Mom when she was a young girl - there was always some members of the family left with the body till it was time to go to church when it would get more serious and on to the burial which took a long line of vehicles to accomidates everyone.

I remember when my Mom was being buried my kid sister [15 years younger] and I arrived after the casket was at the spot and the priest was starting to say prayers with most of the aunts and uncles already there as well as my other sister, [the nun] and my kid brother - we step out of the vehicle and my sister yells, to the top of her lungs, to stop and sort of goes crazy till we figured out what she was making all the fuss about -

Folks thought it was a reaction to my Moms burial - well, it turned out they had the wrong grave opened for her - my Dad was over on the other side of the small cemetery - what a commotion - but they went ahead with the service and arranged to have the casket in its rightful place after we all left...then everyone laughed long and hard with tears of relief and hilarity of it all and the priest trying to hide his laughing that would not stop, went on with the ceremony. Mom would have loved it...she loved making folks laugh.

MY SON'S FUNERAL

The gathering is at the church although
There is no religion manifest.
It is merely the community designation
For family, friends and acquaintances
To unwrap their possessions of the past
To indicate their unique value
And bundle them in common package.
There is some conversation,
Some flowers, some neutral melodies
Rendered on the proper somber instrument.
The package then is addressed, stamped,
And posted to eternity.

A very beautiful poem Jan. Thank you. You give us much to ponder. Mary C.

Today is our last day and I am wondering if any of you have any thoughts on how we might encourage our children to make funeral plans and to think of saving the planet? I have a good friend who is so interested in this aspect of natural cemeteries that she is wondering how she can help get one started. And, she has the money,too.

The least damage is what we need to do when we are burying our dead. Any thoughts here?

Jan

What a deep poem. I have lost a son (20) years ago and it fit our situation at the time. He was only 28 so we were almost too upset to plan anything. Now, I think that I need to write down my wishes.

I can't say enough about planting trees in memory of our loved ones. We have "memory trees" in our yard that weren't planted for family members that passed but rather they are markers of various occasions of our family life. These are such dear landmarks in our family history. It seems as though a tree planted for a memorial is like saying that the life goes on after our time here on earth and causes nothing but good to our earth. A village nearby has a nice park at the heart of it and along the pathways are trees planted and marked in memory of family members of local residents....what a wonderful momument they are and will be in the future!!
Mary C.

Who took the time to comment on this topic. I hope it gave you some ideas and that you enjoyed reading all the posts as did I.

This folder will be closed until the next Curious Minds which I believe is in September???

Happy 4th of July to the Americans and happy summer to those who are having summer right now. I understand its cold in New Zealand at this time of the year so do they have Christmas at a different time than we do??? Just joking!!

Bye for now!!

Bye Ann and thanks for an interesting topic. Mary C.

ANN: This was a great topic.

This discussion is now Read Only. The new topic starts September 16.

Have a great July and August.

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Why do people consume news and opinion?

to learn of facts that bear directly and immediately on their lives

to be entertained -- by scandals, violence, crime, the foibles of celebrities and the antics of the powerful

to be confirmed in their beliefs by seeing them echoed and elaborated by more articulate, authoritative and prestigious voices. (Richard Posner, Bad News)

Links to articles for discussion

NewsLinks to News Media Worldwide | Radio News
Best of the Blogs | Trends in American Journalism journalism.org
Bad News by Judge Richard PosnerNew York Times. Free but registration required.

What about YOU and YOUR NEWS? Come share your thoughts about this very substantial part of our daily lives.

The current topic starts HERE

Discussion Leader: Pedln

Just about everyone pays attention to the news. Don't they? Well, most of us anyway, and these past few weeks most of us have been paying more attention than usual. For most of us, watching the evening (or morning) news or reading the morning (or afternoon) an important, vital part.newspaper is an automatic part of our daily routine. For some of us,

So, where do you get the news you use? TV? Newspapers? The Internet? Is a weekly news magazine a must for you? Do you want your news to come from national channels or do you have more faith in your local paper and broadcasters?

Do you trust what you read or what you hear, or do you think we're now getting more opinions and distortions instead of truth and facts? Who or what do you really like? Who or what drives you nuts?

In the heading, Richard Posner gives reasons why people consume news and opinion. Do you agree?

I think Posner pretty much covers it in his three examples. They are the reason I keep up with news, whether local, national or world.

Hooray! We're ready to go now.

This is a great topic, pedln. Thanks. I agree with Posner's comments, too.

At our house, we have a "mixed marriage". I watch the local and national news in the evenings, mostly on NBC. I occasionally watch Jim Lehrer on PBS, and we watch Now on PBS. John not only never watches TV news programs, he won't stay in the room when it's on. I confess to watching some of CNN during the first few days of Katrina, but never, ever watch Fox or any of the other cable news broadcasts. I think they all but invent news to fill those endless hours with blathering.

We both read our morning newspaper from cover to cover every day - so I guess that where we get most of our news. And I listen to

John does read news on the internet, and reads several international papers every day.

I like to listen to NPR - Morning Edition, Weekend Edition, etc., and occasionally watch Book TV on C-Span2 on the weekends. I never listen to talk radio.

New magazines? We frequently watch 60 Minutes, but none of the others. We read Newsweek and the New Yorker Magazine.

Enough basics - this is going to be fun!

disparaging comments will be expected regarding what different ones watch or do not watch. I don't see the fun in cutting down what others consider a good source of news. I suppose I will wait and see if it continues or if the discussion leader says it is all right, I'm sure the folder will get along fine without me.

Sorry if I offended, AliceB - that certainly was not my intention. I was just speaking for myself, and not intending to disparage anybody else's choices.

I like to read the local paper once in a while, watch tv news, have a few internet news sources. One of my favorite sources for the news is Saturday Night Live. If it's in the news it's on SNL. I think with the latest weather problems, the weather channel had the most accurate and up to date news. I also think CNN is a good source for news coverage.

I read The NZ Herald ( conservative) NYT ( middle of the road at least I think!) I watch BBC world news, Radio NZ news, DWTV, (German world news) I also watch every doco on current events I am able to access. I watch Fox weather and watch anything that is unfolding in the US like Hurricane Katrina via Fox in the middle of the night. Fox has little international news I have noticed. They also shout down anyone they are interviewing who does not agree with their stance. They do a lot of commentary on Fox. I hate interviewers who do not let people finish what they are saying or shout them down.Its just plain rude!

I watch Jim Lehrer through our community TV channel and the chappie who does the panel interviewing an older man who does a current topic every night. He comes on here just before Jim Lehrer but we get the program 12 hours later than you so the interview program could be prerecorded here.

I like PBS a lot and we get some of their programs, I like "To the contrary" a womens affairs program which debates issues from both sides of the fence. Really interesting topics.

When I go up to my daughters I watch CNN as she has digital TV through SKY. We are getting cable in the next couple of years in my area. If its reasonable enough I may splash out and buy some channels.

Carolyn

I'll have to watch for the PBS program 'to the contrary' it sounds interesting

I am here and I am someone who doesn't search out much news. We get Newsweek and a local newspaper. Very occasionally we watch TV news -- mostly cable channels. We watched the Katrina coverage more than we have watched anything for some time.

Yes, I would have to agree with Richard Posner's statement above. And add one other reason: I cannot live without News.

I am amazed that people can take it or leave it. I could surely not survive without it. The reason I am that way may go back to the night-time newscasts during WWII. Everyone would be in bed, lights out. My older sister and I shared a room...she would be fast asleep. Mother would also be fast asleep by the time Dad went to turn on the 10 p.m. news about the war.

We had one of those big table top radios, with a large yellow dial that would light up. I would go and stand silently in the dark doorway and listen to the news every night. I was in the second grade, so it was a habit formed early. I stood silently, because no one ever dared talked during a news broadcast in our house.

Now that we can hear news 24/7, people in my house may talk if necessary. <grin>

I also read two newspapers daily: our local paper, and the Dallas Morning News. I got attached to DMN when I lived in and/or near Dallas several times. I read Time and sometimes Newsweek, and at times follow certain stories in other Newspapers online. The INTERNET is great when you want to research something in the news.

ABC had been my TV network news channel for years, Jennings and Koppel as well as local news. I miss Jennings. Actually, I may watch CNN more than ABC.....I don't trust Fox as far as I can hear them (maybe I shouldn't say that, but it's true).

Mary Z talked about a "mixed marriage"...well, I live in a "mixed household" and for years been on the wrong side of the political landscape where ever I've lived. But I'm not shy and sometimes express my opinion when I shouldn't. Because of that tendency, I gave up the Political Discussions here at SNet a long time back. I lurk now and then, but keep my mouth shut, which reminds me....that's someone else I miss. Remember Gary? He use to be a great moderator when it came to politics.

Reading, and watching so much news might seem confusing to some, but I don't see how else you can learn all sides, and all the facts, if you don't listen to all of it. News is our current history. Since we are part of it, we need to understand it.

Sun

When I was growing up I dreaded the piece of music that heralded the start of the News broadcast on the ABC. I hated that music, really hated it. It meant boring subjects in strange, grave tones. This was in the 50's when Australians on Radio were supposed to sound like the BBC. What a shock to hear that snatch of music later in life, and realise it was part of a symphony. It was actually grand and majestic in its own right. I still feel a smidgeon of that sinking feeling though when I hear it.

Its really good Annie they debate an issue from both sides and have very interesting topics. They even did a show on the fact that at the moment and for the last six years all the top posts in my country have been and are held by women.

Our elections tomorrow and its neck and neck. Most nailbiting election in years! I will be glued to the TV we are going to an election party. Its going to be a real long evening because the race is too close to call. They are using some virtual reality software so that will be something to see. It apparently puts the presenters in the House of Parliament showing the seats as the finals come through.

I must say I will be glad when its all over and we get back to our usual current affairs programs!

Carolyn

Jan I was only little during the time of the Suez crisis. I can remember being huddled round the radio listening to the news and wondering if there would be another war! I listened to the news all the time because we were a rabidly political family.

Carolyn

Well good morning and what a great topic! Perhaps we will change our way of getting news or dabble in something different by reading our fellow posters preferences........I read a local and national newspaper....also the N.Y. Times, Washington Post, and Christian Science Monitor on the web their editorials and opinion pieces. I would like the Wall Street Journal but to expensive...have to go to the libary to peek at it......On the radio I listen to Morning Edition, Democracy Today, and The Diane Rheam show.......T.V. news is mainly C-Span and Fox.......some times the local news on A.B.C.....I like the political blogs and read them sometimes, ( I also love the cooking blogs!)......I also read many of the books reviewed on C-Spans "Book T.V." am really looking forward to this discussion.....

I have been watching Fox for almost two hours as I am sitting here at my PC and there has been no foreign news other than reports on the War in Iraq. How do people get to know about the world outside the US?

Carolyn

...to talk about the news, without arguing about politics! Can we avoid hurt feelings? I do hope so!

I've become so used to reading news on line many times a day that it feels like I'm "behind" when activities take me away from the screen for a whole day.
We don't watch the news on TV in our house -- cannot stand the blather -- unless there is a very unusual or horrible event.
We read 2 newspapers daily, in summer here at Cape Cod, the Boston Globe and the Cape Cod Times. I would miss all the local stories, traffic delay spots, and neighborhood news without these newspapers.
In October when we head down to our winter home we get the Sun Sentinel (FL) and the New York Times.
When I talk to my 30 to 40-year-old kids, who live around the country in various states, I'm appalled at how they don't keep up with the news! However, they don't think they miss anything at all. It seems that not letting them watch the news while we ate dinner all those years has backfired; they usually watch TV, and skip newspapers.

Have others seen the same disconnect between generations?

Young people today rarely watch the news I find. One of my daughters was never interested until she got her partner who is foreign. He is a current affairs and news junkie and I am pleased to say my daughter has got interested now because he turns on the news every night and watches documentaries etc,

My children are all in their thirties from 34 to 39 and only one has consistently read newspapers and watched the news. This is not because they were not exposed to news, views and current affairs.They were.

Carolyn

Kiwi--

First of all, I'm so glad to see this section. Have been thinking for some time that we needed something such as this. Just hope we can keep it on an 'intellectual' rather than 'gut' level.

Kiwi, I have a question for you. Why do you watch Fox instead of CNN or MSNBC. Fox is considered to be the most conservative of the three. Personally, I never watch it.

I get my news by reading the Washington Post newspaper from cover to cover every day, watching CNN until 10:00am and then switch to MSNBC (after Imus in the Morning--won't watch him. Bad for my blood pressure). I also subscribe to the Atlantic Monthly which has longer articles about current things. Our local newspaper carries stuff from the national news wires, some national columnists, and local stories with heavy emphasis on school sports.

As for your question about how Americans get news of other countries. The best source these days is the internet. I'm firmly convinced that you can find ANYTHING on the 'net. However, I'm pretty gloomy about the number of 'average' Americans who even bother to read anything except the baseball, football, and NASCAR results.

And instead of our curent system of 'liberal' or 'conservative' news channels (MSNBC, CNN, FOX) which present partisans of each 'side' of an issue, I'd sure like to see a format in which an intelligent person presented both sides of an issue objectively. The current system simply presents biased points of view from both sides. And frankly, I sort of stop listening.

As for my kids, ages 45, 49, 50, 55, and 58, none of them pays any attention at all to the news except for the 'catch phrases' they hear from co-workers. The 49-year old is more tuned to current news mainly, I suspect, because she lives near me and I try to raise her awareness level. To my great satisfaction, she was really off the mark with Katrina: took off work one afternoon to help load supplies on trucks heading to New Orleans.

And one last item. I also partake in frequent online Zogby polls. They are looking for more participants, and if any of you is interested in being counted, I'll post the link.

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our new Curious Minds topic on The News You Use. It's wonderful to have all of you here and to learn about your "news" experiences from around the world.

AliceB, I do hope you will stay with us. No disparaging comments are expected or encouraged; we assuredly can express our likes and dislikes without cutting anyone down. As Nancy said, "perhaps we will change our way of getting news or dabble in something different by reading our fellow posters preferences.." Yes, Mippy, I think we can discuss this topic without hurting anyone's feelings.

And already you all have opened up so many questions. I'm not going to try to address them all in one post. Mippy and Carolyn have asked two that I hope we can spend more time on later --How do people get to know about the world outside the US? -- and --Have others seen the same disconnect (lack of interest in the news) between generations?

I consider myself a bit of a news junkie, although some of you here put up stiff competition. I watch both CNN and FOX, MSNBC --switch back and forth during commercials. I'm very dependent on closed captioning, so have just about given up on our local TV News because their CC is so disjointed, and depend on the local paper for local news. Enjoy PBS -- especially the Lehrer News Hour and also Washington Week in Review. I find my habits changing and I tend to watch more cable news than network TV news, probably because it's available during daytime hours. There are links to NYT and WashingtonPost on my computer screen. There just aren't enough hours in the day to pursue them all.

Back later -- this is getting long and I haven't had breakfast, or coffee. If you have time, do check out some of the links in the heading. The Posner article is long, but worth it. More later.

I watch both sides of the issues. I can then confirm my own opinions. You see I don't take on board opinions. I look at the issues and make up my own mind from a large range of news programs. Sometimes editorials will mirror my own take on a situation sometimes they will be in opposition. I also do a lot of reading. I like to see how everyone is presenting a story. That is how one does arrive at a personal opinion and I think gets a balanced view of a situation.

Thank you for directing us to Richard Posner's article! He doesn't mince words in describing both sides of our media. He tells it like it is and reading his views is a delight. Years ago I stopped watching network news for the very reasons he states and also the often trumped up newsmagazines. The bloggers and others have truly upset some applecarts and hooray for them. Years ago I actually believed the big-time news-anchors could be trusted. What a laugh and a half. Am thankful to have learned differently so as to be spared their blather, so apted described by Judge Posner.

Posner's statement: "The public's interest in factual accuracy is less an interest in truth than a delight in the unmasking of the opposition's errors." Hee hee hee hee hee... ain't it the TRUTH! Time and time again, Posner nails it.

This looks like it's going to be a great discussion. I love all sources of news coverage, and enjoy talking about them all - print, radio, on-line and TV.

I was a journalism major in college, and have never gotten over my love of the standard print newspaper. However, I'm afraid that the demise of the daily paper, is not far down the road. Very few people subscribe or read a newspaper anymore. Certainly not the younger generation. None of my three grown children take a daily paper. On my cul-de-sac street of 16 houses, there is only one other house besides ours, that has newspaper delivery every morning. I think that's pretty sad, but I realize that times change, and most people get their news from other sources. Working people don't have time to sit and read the paper anymore, but only get quick "bites" from their Yahoo or Comcast homepage. I doubt that many of them are even subscribed to on-line editions of any of the major papers.

I can't imagine not reading or being interested in the editorial/op-ed pages. I enjoy the local columnists as well as the syndicated ones. I wouldn't embarrass my grown children by asking them, but I doubt that they know who Tom Friedman is - or David Broder, Molly Ivins, Maureen Dowd, etc. The names would be meaningless to them. But they all know Imus, Howard Stern, or Letterman, and consider them to be news sources!

I like THE WEEK better than any news weekly I've ever subscribed to.

Reasons: The stories aren't too long, and each major story is followed by editorial opinions from various publications, both conservative and liberal. Plenty of photographs, plus short human interest stories, book and movie reviews, the arts, etc.

Correct address: http://www.theweekmagazine.com
Phone: 1-877-245-8151

My favorite TV news: The Lehrer report on PBS.

Carolyn, you asked how people get to know what's going on outside the US. The answer is - they don't. It's sad, but true. In many cases, the bottom line is that the news that gets the most space is "local" (whatever "local" happens to be - city, state, US).

Our daughters and SILs are in their 40s and early 50s - and they are all inveterate newspaper readers. They are very up on current events - even though they aren't always on the same side. Actually

, our daughters usually agree with us - and we just don't discuss politics with our SILs. When we go to the beach, our oldest daughter gets her exercise every morning by walking half-mile to the convenience store to buy one of every paper they have - local, regional, USA Today, and whatever else might be there.

Many of you talk about watching TV news during the day. We almost never even turn on the TV until I get to it to watch the evening news. The only time might be to check on local radar on the Weather Channel.

Plenty of international news in articles and papers of all kinds on the web......also we have community radio here where I live as well as NPR...the community radio has four hours of BBC radio daily which I also enjoy..........I feel blessed living here where I have all these outlets for reading and news......AND.....we have a wonderful public library here which I use heavily...............I am very fond of Brit Hume and Chris Wallace on Fox news.......During the hurricane reporting I watched CNN's man who came on after Wolf Blitzer and liked him too......No lack of news of any kind any my area...if you want it ....it can be found.............I don't consider myself an ideologue of any kind....I can find agreement on some things on both sides of the isle so to speak.

I should point out that to get the big picture on world events it helps to have a good knowledge of world history. Having this knowledge is essential when making up your mind on which side of the fence you will sit in when commenting on World Global policies.

Carolyn

our thinking on various and sundry subjects, by the time we are old people we are probably not ever going to know. One of my complaints about news people on TV is hearing them say, "I will explain it to you." grrrr.... I wish they could simply say, I will tell you what is here before me and since I must tell it to the level of a 12 year old child, you can probably figure out what I've said. People who think they must explain things to point the way for the hoi polloi (everyone but them) ... well, hey, they can explain it to their youth. Not to me. It is a put-down to one's peers.

A warm welcome to all our newcomers here. HappyBill, thank you so much for the link to "The Week" magazine. I had never heard of it before and definitely want to look at more of it. I was glad to see the international editorials. Must confess that I took the weekly news quiz and scored only 2 out of 12.

Jeanlock, the Zogby polls are also unfamiliar to me, as they may be to others. Yes, please post a link to them here, and perhaps tell us more about them.

It looks like a mixed bag for the younger generation and its relationship with the news media. All my children live in or near major cities and all subscribe to the major newspapers. My 15-year-old granddaughter has her own subscription to Time Mag. and reads it faithfully. They don't have cable TV and I never watch TV when i visit them. I think their news is limited to the papers and probably the radio when they're in the car. My youngest daughter doesn't have a TV -- uses her laptop for everythng, even NPR.

The first link in the heading -- to News Media Worldwide is a mixed bag. It will get you to international papers in major cities in countries around the world, but I ran into a lot of "page not available." Be patient.

A few statistics from Judge Posner's article regarding newspaper reading -- daily readership has dropped from 52.6 % of adults in 1990 to to 37.5% in 2000, but the drop is much steeper among 20-49 year olds.

One way to get "the big picture" and gain knowledge of world history is to READ BOOKS.......not just the news magazines and current events..When reading both, things just have a way of "coming togather".I am fond of biographys of former world leaders as well as history books on various subjects........speaking of which I have in hand "The Great Flood of 1927"......What a perfect time to read this.

Nancy, the author of that book was interviewed on C-Span2 last weekend (I think). I heard part of it - very, VERY interesting.

Kenny Chesney were soulmates and their 4 month marriage is to be annulled.

In the morning, I watch news from Europe first, TV5 from France and Switzerland because I want to get an overall picture of what is going on worldwide. Then I watch the BBC to get England's point of view on world affairs. Then I switch to American news and switch between channels to try to avoid all those commercials. Then I look at Canadian news and at the end I finish with the local news. That doesn't take me as long as it looks, about a half hour and during the hurricane Katrina, an hour.

The reason I do this is because I want to get as many opinions as I can in order to arrive at the best possible assessment of the situation, like Carolyn said. There is a lot of bias on the news and when there is friction between countries, it makes you see both sides of the picture.

Mary Z.......that is where I became interested in the book.....from c-span 2.....It is quite a large book but I am tackling it...It's starts out in St. Louis , Mo. with a man named Eades......now I have gone across the Eades bridge I believe it is many times.....now I know who the bridge is named for.........

Nancy, don't you love it when that happens - and you make a "connection". And don't you love Book TV!

In the news tonight, the PBS program NOW had a special hour-long program that was a town-meeting of sorts with people involved with Katrina on various levels, broadcast from Baton Rouge. There were people from all walks of life from the poor black refugees to the Lt. Gov of LA to the second-in-command on site for FEMA. All sorts of interesting points of view. If it hasn't run in your area, it'd be worth looking for and watching.

ÉLOÏSE, I envy you. My basic cable program does not give me access to foreign TV stations; I am not sure there IS such a possibility here.
But I can make up for it by on-line reading of Swiss newspapers and magazines, the Italian Corriere della Sera, the French Le Figaro and Le Monde, plus several German papers.

That is not only useful to me (because they are six hours ahead of our time) but also interesting for their interpretation and perspective.

I also believe that a news analysis can be helpful but, since I am forever seeking harmony and understanding, I do not watch programs where the participants heatedly yell at and interrupt each other, or where the host is either sarcastic or suggests murderous solutions.

The media have (and always had) an enormous influence on public opinion, indeed on public thinking and perception.

We might ask ourselves whether there is any correlation between the disinterest of (too) many people in reading or listening to "hard" news and their total passivity when it comes time to vote.

Traude - I certainly agree with the statement about not watching "programs where the participants heatedly yell at and interrupt each other.

Who cares that one can yell louder than the other, and who can understand what they are saying anyway? It's a contest, both rude and crude. Even if I could stand to listen to them, and thought I might agree with one of them, I'd be too ashamed to quote them.

Listening to and trying to understand both sides of any issue in the news is important....but if you can't understand or hear them, then what's the point?

We will soon be voting on a number of Propositions. Our Newspaper will go to great length to explain them all, one by one. There will be many people that will not vote at all, and some that do will ignore the Propositions entirely.

Then there will be a few, like a woman I know that once told me after just such an election, that she didn't read them, she "just voted yes on all of them, just for good measure". I wonder if people like that deserve to vote.

Sun

the news is about our national tragdy and how to solve the zillions of problems Katrina has given us to solve. the suffering goes on and makes mme sad when I see it on the tube. Here on line Ihave five newspapers, but haven't read much lately due to an eye problem . Right now, for me there is no other news. . . . Claire

Sun - I didn't know they'd started having "propositions" in Texas. Are they like the ones they have in CA? I agree about the lady and her voting "yes" on everything. Around here, they're more likely to do the same thing, but vote "NO" on all of them.

Many thanks for posting the link to the Posner article. I read it all through and think he is right on most things. I'll probably print it out and give it to my kids-----just in case they might glance at it.

And having just finished my daily reading of the Wash Post, there are a couple of things I'd like to pass on.

First,

"Medicare payments to physicians jumped 15 percent last year, an unexpectedly large increase that prompted Bush administration officials yesterday to announce that monthly premiums for America's seniors will rise to $89.20 in 2006, $1.50 more than initially projected." That's 13% folks

Has anyone seen anything about the Cost of Living INCREASE in Social Security payments for 2006? Any chance IT will be 13%?

And on the 'gossip' page, Jeb Bush's son was arrested and posted bail after being charged with public intoxication.

The article also 'reminded us' about his sister Noelle's arrest for fraudulent RX charges which were dropped upon her entering a rehab facility. And then there are the Bush daughters and their problems with underage drinking.

Now, just think for a minute what the outcry would have been if Chelsea had been picked up for any one of those charges. You'd never have heard the end of it. Makes me wonder why they give the Bush offspring a free ride. And have you ever thought that perhaps one of the daughters might have volunteered for service in Iraq?

For one thing Jeb Bush is not the president, so his children are not the equivalent of Chelsea when her dad was president. Everytime the twins were in trouble it was publicized and anyone who had ears heard about it. The twins are not members of our armed services which is volunteer military and so what if they did not choose to join?

Welcome, Claire, Eloise, and Traude. Sorry to hear about your eye problem, Claire, and hope it improves soon. Eloise, you are probably the envy of many here, having access to so many international channels. And you and Traude (and no doubt others here also) have the advantage of being multi-lingual and not limited to English only publications and broadcasts.

Nancy, interesting that you mention James Eades, builder of Eades Bridge. I have a PBS video about him. In the 1880's he was considered one of the most famous engineers in the world. And, ironically as we speak at this time, greatly responsible for the growth of New Orleans, as his skills provided the means to keep the often silted-up Mississippi open to the shipping that made NO the port that it is today.

Well, I don't know if I've made a wise decision or an unecessary foolish charge to my credit card. The NYT online is no longer totally free; you must subscribe to NYT Select in order to have access to opinion articles and some others -- beginning MOnday. I bit. We shall see if it's worth it.

But this brings up a question -- Is this a coming trend in the world of media -- have you found other "freebies" now charging? To be sure, we pay for just about all print media. (Although when I first moved to town 30 years ago there was a free paper three times a week, mostly local.) Then the publisher bought out the other paper in town, and no more free.) Are the days of just "registering" for online news soon to be over?

I remember years ago, when cable was just beginning to make a very small entry into the TV world, someone predicting that someday we would all have to pay for all our TV. What do you think?

In my town, if you don't have cable, you can get 2, or 3 if you're lucky, channels. Even PBS reception is very poor without cable. Some of my friends and family, who live in or near larger cities say they get plenty of options without paying for cable. How about you?

When living about 65 miles south of International Falls MN many years ago, we were able to get the PBS station from Bemidji,and sometimes Regina, Canada. Otherwise that was "it". Also on a "good day" we were able to get a TV station from Alexandria (I think that was the name of the town), however that was very seldom!

VERY isolated area, and terrible climate!

We're lucky in that we have access to two PBS stations and 10 on-air channels, but even our cable doesn't have the international type channels. I don't know what kind of reception folks without cable get - we signed up for cable when we moved here. I think some are available on their digital package, but we haven't taken that plunge yet. Last time I looked, they offered something like 100 additional channels, and there were only 4-5 that we'd ever watch.

John works crossword puzzles on line from some of the major papers. Some he stopped because they required paid subscriptions. He'll hate it if they all go to pay-per-puzzle.

No TV for us in either FL or Cape Cod unless we pay!
We are too far from any big city to use a TV antenna.
However, I refuse to get the premium package, which costs too much!
The medium-price package gives us CNN, MSNBC, and FOX, which is plenty of news coverage for us!

Did I see some Bush-bashing here? I hope this is not going to be a discussion of politics.

"I am forever seeking harmony and understanding, I do not watch programs where the participants heatedly yell at and interrupt each other"

Traude - I loved your statement, above, and I feel exactly the same way. It's extremely hard to take a moderate view, in today's political climate. People expect you to be either left or right and to hold tightly to a single party line. It makes so much more sense to look at both sides of any situation. It also frustrates me and makes me uncomfortable to hear people interupting, discrediting and insulting one another on the TV "talking heads" news programs, (or in the political and current events discussions here on Senior Net.)

For those of you who feel very strongly that the Bush girls should step up to the plate and join the military - just think about it for a few minutes, and you will understand how impossible it would be. Even if they wanted to join, it could never happen. The children of any president couldn't possibly become bonafide members of the armed services in today's political climate. These young people have a Secret Service team with them at all times. Think of the monumental nightmare it would be for the SS, and what a disruptiom it would cause in military protocol to suddenly have a president's offspring in basic training! How could they possibly be treated equally to other soldiers with a team of protectors around them at all times? Think of the press, hounding their every move.

I remember when Chelsea was attending Stanford U, which is only a short distance from the town where I live. Chelsea would often drive here with her motorcade and full entourage of secret service, to have dinner in one of our local restaurants. There would always be advance notice that she was coming, and the restaurant would be cleared and the general public, AND THE PRESS, would be kept at a safe distance.

It seemed a bit extreme, but I can understand that that's the only way you can protect the children of presidents. It was the same with the Nixon girls and the Johnson girls and it's the same with the Bush girls. The press should have left the Bush girls alone from day one, except for when they were attemding a a political function. But they are attractive and interesting, and I can understand the press wanting to cover them. In my opinion, the girls did nothing that was so shocking or that was much different from any other college kids. Certainly, my two daughters were no angels when they were college age, and neither was my son. Too bad about Jeb Bush's son, but let's hope, for the kid's sake, that he will be OK. It must be really tough, having your father as governor of a state, or president of the US. Lest we forget - one of the Gore kids was arrested for either underage drinking or possesion of marijuana when Gore was VP? No big deal was made out of that incident. Kids are kids!

Those who feel the great need to speak ill of the twins already know all that... it doesn't seem to stop them from their great need.

Mippy, I hope so, too. There are other folders to get in the digs about politics from both sides.

My brother and sil are year-round residents of Cape Cod and have had cable since being there as far as I know. I live 50 miles from the network stations in a larger city and while I have cable, I haven't always. Without it, I would get all the network stations, PBS, and a few others with the addition of that simple little UHF antenna attached to the TV.

HAPPY BILL - I first subscribed to The Week way back in Dec. 1995. I regret not having the first issues because I have kept them all since that date.

But I am hoping that this new forum will not just be telling each other WHERE we read or saw interesting news but WHAT we read or saw.

For instance I recently read that the latest EU lunatic proposal is that employers should ensure that their workers are protected from the sun's rays and even supply them with protective sun cream and appropriate head gear.

The mind boggles. What will they think of next. Is this the best way they can justify their inflated salaries.

Roffay: I would like that too. But I hope the discussions of the news or editorials can avoid arguments stemming from our political persuasions, like the thing that ruined "Current Events" for me. Anyone have thoughts on how to avoid that when we mention various articles?

HAPPY BILL - Tricky one that. I would like to think that any discussion here stems purely from opinion and reaction and not influenced by political bias. Shouldn't be too difficult. Should it??

Happy Bill and Roffay - it seemed to me that this short-lived discussion would not be about the events in the news, but the news media itself, where we get it, how we feel about it, etc.

Mary: That's what I thought, but I read the intro again and now I'm not sure. I have an open mind.

I'll just bet that Pedln drops in again soon to let us know.

I thought we were discussing the media not the issues. How the media presents the news etc.

I have to say I hate it when presenters yell over the top of their interviewee when they voice an opinion they do not agree with. I think that is highly unprofessional and turns me right off the item.

Carolyn

Welcome Roffy and Quicksilver, and rest assured, all of you, this is NOT a political discussion, but a discussion on the state of news media today. And while commenting on items said and read is certainly permissable and encouraged, I am certain it can be done without arguing and in a non-combative way. Thus said, this is an open forum and we want to hear your views.

There are some links to media-related sources in the heading. (Please forgive me if I mention Posner too much. Can't help it; he says a lot.) I'd also like to mention Trends in American Journalism, an annual report from journalism.org. I'm not sure which professional organization, if any, this represents, but they cover eight facets of media, including radio and magazines, with much emphasis on news. Two paragraphs are quoted below. If you go to the Home page, you will find a link to several articles about the media coverage of Hurricane Katrina.

"Those who would manipulate the press and public appear to be gaining leverage over the journalists who cover them. Several factors point in this direction. One is simple supply and demand. As more outlets compete for their information, it becomes a seller's market for information. Another is work load. The content analysis of the 24-hour-news outlets suggests that their stories contain fewer sources. The increased leverage enjoyed by news sources has already encouraged a new kind of checkbook journalism (italics, mine) as seen in the television networks efforts to try to get interviews with Michael Jackson and Jessica Lynch. . . "

"The convenience of 24-hour cable TV news, offering the latest breaking headlines at any time of the day or night, represents an enormous structural advantage for cable over network television. Cable has become the television news medium of choice. The network most cited as the No. 1 source for news remains CNN, preferred over the broadcast networks and even its cable rivals." (However, Posner claims that the Fox News Channel is the most watched.)

And now, your daily Posner statistic
1975: average number of available TV channels -- 7
2005: average number of available TV channels -- 71

PEDIN - Thank you for your welcome and your interesting posting.

MARY Z - My apologies to everyone here - seems I got it all wrong. So just one comment before I leave.

It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words.

Photographs used in the media can be doctored or presented in such a way as to give a completely false representation of an event.

How many of us query the "truth" of a photograph we see in our newspaper or journal. I know I don't despite what I have just said.

Most older people are aware photographs sometimes lie. People are not dumb.... well, sometimes I am.

IMO, Posner tells it like it is and does it in a way which seems to be one of the most unbiased way I've read.

One mag I've subscribed for years is Vanity Fair. Partly because it doens't cost much and mainly for Wolcott, Wolff and some of the other regular writers. They are top notch and their sharp insightful way of putting a story together is good reading. This month, Wolcott writes of Truman Capote's masterpiece IN COLD BLOOD and tells how it could not have been done the way Capote did it if it were happening today. Media from all over the world would be there sticking microphones under any and everyone's noses, etc... and the small Kansas town would be a media metropolis until another disaster hit or there would be a celebrity downfall and off the media would go, never to think about the dead Clutter family again. What people think about Capote is irrelevant and immaterial as is said in Perry Mason's courtroom. LOL

The welcome, and comprehensive details about this discussion are very much appreciated. Agree that all should avoid vituperative exchanges, especially "political".

Roffay - you're absolutely right about pictures. I consider myself a photographer, and I know how an image can be manipulated. Having said that, there can also be a lot of manipulation in simply choosing which photographs to publish, and how the captions are written.

I like foxnews,there do go storys

I like this topic and the excellent postings.

Sadly I can't share with you opinion on YOUR media because I'm just a Brit who has strayed (swum??) into your territory.

Just left me wondering tho' if The Week referred to by Happy Bill is the same journal I get here.

Maybe the link given for The Week would have some ID that would clarify for you. It's back a page or so, I think.

Roffay -- I'm not a Brit, but I do like to read the BBC's slant on news. They were a bit hard on the US in reporting about Katrina.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

According to FT.com, Tony Blair said he was shocked by the hatred the BBC showed toward the USA in their reporting of Katrina.

Back in 1945, as I was preparing--at the ripe old age of 18 and a half, to come to Washington to work for the FBI Fingerprint ID division, I came across a book called, "Washington is Like That" by someone named Kiplinger. I devoured it page-by-page to prepare myself for my new environment.

In the section devoted to the four newspapers then published in DC, I was attracted by the description of the Washington Post as "the paper preferred by the intellectuals". Well, I certainly considered myself as such. So, from Day One, I read it every day. And have done so ever since whenever I've been able to get it. When I lived in other cities, I often managed to get the Sunday paper at local newsstands. Otherwise, it's home-delivered, and just about the first thing I do after I crawl (slowly, these days) out of bed.

In those days, the paper was owned by Eugene Meyer, a great philanthropist. I worked for several months at the front counter selling classified ads and saw many of the leading figures of the paper. Once I even sold a paper to General Bradley. Mr. Meyer's secretary's secretary was my maid of honor when I got married.

I always trusted that paper to provide accurate information, even through Katherine Graham's ownership. However, since she died, the paper has changed character somewhat, and I no longer trust it as I did. I tried to get home delivery of the NY Times but that didn't work, so I'm stuck with the Post. One thing they do have, however, is a good ombudsman who frequently points out lapses in their policies of what to print at all, and often where it should have been printed.

I always read the Op-Ed page and have always prided myself in seeking out as many views on a subject as I can and weighing them (a trait I practiced as I debated both sides of a topic in highschool) before coming to a decision. When I noticed recently that even George Will was beginning to write articles that agreed with my point of view, I emailed him that he must be mellowing with age (and received a gracious response).

However, almost no one down here reads a paper at all, and if they do it's the local paper which only has a bare minimum of reporting from the Associated Press of national and international issues.

Thus I have relied a lot on seniornet for some intellectual balance with mixed results.

---------------------------------------------

Harking back to yesterday's comment that perhaps the Bush daughters could volunteer for military service, and the comments elicited, I offer the following about the offspring of former presidents and their service:

Friday, September 2, 2005, Exhibition Opening: "Freedom from Fear": FDR as Commander in Chief, FDR Presidential Library and Museum William J. vanden Heuvel Gallery

"The priceless public and personal papers on display will provide revealing glimpses into pivotal moments and decisions, along with the human side of FDR as he led America through its greatest international crisis. Of special interest will be his correspondence with his sons--all of whom served in America's military--"

--------------------------------

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. "John Sheldon David Doud Eisenhower (b. August 3, 1922) is the son of U.S. president and WWII Allied commander Dwight D. Eisenhower. He served in the White House during his father's presidency as U.S. ambassador to Belgium and is an author of several books on military history."

"Eisenhower attended the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. He served in the Army during World War II and the Korean War. Eisenhower achieved the rank of brigadier general in the U.S. Army Reserve"

-------------------------------------------

Other presidents since FDR either had all daughters, and at the time women weren't accepted in the military, or had sons (Ford had 3) who were of the wrong ages for service in any existing conflict at the time.

OK, that's my Google research for today. Hope you all are enjoying some weather cooler than I have to look forward to.

I am curious......

What did the BBC say about the events surrounding Katrina, that weren't true?

And that brings up the question, do we really want to know the truth about controversial events that are taking place in the US and around the World?

I know that some family members have stopped watching television, and removed their kids from school, in order to take control of what they are exposed to, and as a way to protect them from the reality of world events.

I can empathize with them, and give them huge kudos for their "walking their walk", but it still gives me pause to think that in todays world, our children here in the US need to be sheltered from the realities of our existence in 2005.

Which leads right back to the question: Do we really want to know?

The Roosevelt and Eisenhower sons are definitely a good comparison to comments elicited regarding the Clinton and Bush girls.

gone fishing, when you ask "Do we....? Whom do you mean other than yourself? I can only speak for myself.

I guess that I should have said: "do you" want to know the truth...

And I also want to know "whos truth" it is, so that I can judge for myself what to believe.

Unfortunately, I no longer believe much of what is portrayed in the news.

The problem being (IMHO) is that we all live in our very own private "reality", that can differ immensely from the "reality" that is perceived by person next door.....

IMHO, we did see for ourselves the "reality of Katrina" and that is very hard to deny.
Or forgive.....

I am not in any way suggesting that the horrors and after-math of Katrina should be minimized but I find myself watching the news less and less. The same stories are told over and over, on any of the channels whether it be CNN, Fox, local channels or the "BC's." Get on with it. Before Katrina was the horror of Natalie Holloway coverage. The news becomes inundated with the present- until the next catastrophy strikes. I find myself reading more Times, Newsweek, and now the international Ode magazine, dedicated to people and ideas that are "changing" the world. We all talk about this and that but are unable to change anything. These folks are doing just that. To me, that is newsworthy.

gone fishing, yes.

And anyone who grew up in the USA and studied how we operate, it is clear that Louisiana State Officials failed to take care of their state. First and foremost, that is the beginning of the tale, IMHO. The state leaders can yell and holler and try to place blame for the horrendous tragedy, but, it falls back to them. Anyone who can read knows that unless their prejudices and/or biases prevents it. If people in other countries do not know how the USA operates, then perhaps they should study up on the subject. There are plenty of sources to get a non-lopsided view, although many do not wish to balance their opinion.

You are so right, ALF... thank you for your words.

Welcome Alf,Sandy, PatW, and gone fishing. Glad you all found your way here. Many thanks to the link for BBC, Pat. I want to spend some more time there. Our local PBS has a daily BBC newscast just before Lehrer news hour, but alas no CC. Alf, is "Ode" online? Can you provide a link?

Alice, I was really struck by your comment about if In Cold Blood could be written in today's media environment. It parallels something I experienced this summer. Years ago, pregnant with child no. 1, I was visiting in DC with both my mother and MIL. There was an article in one of the daily papers about a bride who disappeared shortly before her wedding. The news didn't say much, both my wise companions voiced their opinions that perhaps the girl was having cold feet. A short time later, it was reported that the girl had returned and admitted she was afraid of getting married. END OF STORY. PERIOD. FULL STOP. Compare that with what happened to that poor girl who ran away this summer. Granted, she may be a bit unbalanced and have her problems, but did she really need to be hounded by the media? What do you all think? Is this something the media must do -- leave no stone unturned, let the public be fully informed, or does it border on invasion of privacy?

gone fishing -- earlier in the discussion, one of our participants talked about listening to the news on the radio, no talking allowed, and then discussing it later. It seems that the pictures she saw were the ones SHE formed in her mind, from listening to the words. The difference now is that TV can be very graphic, and that may be why parents shield their children from the news. They don't want the kids to assume that all these bad things can happen to them.

IMO, our world is being contaminated by the tabloid type media. Such news formats used to be avoided by many of us because of some of the outlandish claims put forth. It seems to me we are so inundated with ballyhoo and hoopla it takes great effort to get close to what may be the actual events and it is doubtful it can happen in some cases. For me, it is sickening. I've often thought I could go out in my front yard and do something somewhat unusual and have my 15 minutes of fame, because the least thing said or done can have that almighty microphone under one's nose. If someone's mate or child is killed, there will be a reporter an hour later asking if they are still upset about it........... When Princess Caroline of Monaco's husband was killed, there was a headline THREE days later saying The Princess is Still Mourning. Well, duh... !

I agree, pedln, that this need to fill up 24 hours, 7 days a week, results in the news-networks talking nonessential subjects to death. Certainly in the Katrina coverage, things were changing almost minute by minute, and this was warranted. But in the cases of the runaway bride and the young girl in Aruba, it was just a matter of saying the same things over and over. Until, as you noted, the next "crisis" comes along to take over.

This isn't what I would call news...but what I would call "blather" or just noise.

ALICE B - Of course Katrina was hugely reported over here and inevitably raised lots of questions but I must add - lots of sympathy too.

Hatred by the BBC? I feel that it much too strong and unfair a word to describe their reporting. They may of course just have been reporting what was said in your own media. The following doesn't represent my opinion - just what I have been reading.

1. Marisa Katz in The New Republic (New York). "To be poor in America is to be invisible.

2. Nicholas Eberstadt The New York Times. "The extent of poverty in America has been grossly exaggerated."

3. Again in The New York Times. "The full story of Katrina is now starting to emerge and its clear that it was not the unmitigated disaster that early reports led us to expect"

The following is a long one and to my mind the kind of reporting which caused so much ill feeling and damaged the US image. My apologies in advance if this offends or indeed if you have already read it anyway.

"There was something contemptuous about the official response to the Katrina tragedy said Nakul Vyas in The Tech (Massachusetts). For two days after the worst storm in recent US history President Bush stayed at his ranch in Crawford where he was photographed laughing and playing the guitar. Vice President Cheney carried on fishing in Wyoming; Condoleezza Rice took in the Monty Python show Spamalot on Broadway and went hunting for shoes on Fifth Avenue. (A member of the public who berated her for shopping while Americans were dying was hustled out of the store). Barbara Bush displayed a similar lack of sensitivity when she visited the Houston Astrodome, and implied that Katrina might actually have done the evacuees a favour 'So many of the people here were, you know, underprivileged anyway' said the president's mother 'so this is working very well for them'."

Have reached the point where it is almost impossible for me to watch any "news" at all because it does not focus on the news the public should really be made aware of (e.g. "hidden" agendas inserted into huge bills which Congress is dealing with, a possible pandemic as a result of Asian Flu virus mutating, etc.).

All we hear is the same rhetoric ad infinitum until it is ridiculous to waste one's time watching or listening to it. I get my "real news" on line using Internet resources and on-line e-mail "alerts".

I think we all agree that the "news" as we know it on TV is basically a farce, other than when there are real events unfolding which are important to the nation. The newspapers, in general, seem to be following this lead to a great degree other than the "big boys" such as the Washington Post, NY Times, etc.

Insofar as children watching the news, during WW II, all we heard on the radio and read in the newspaper was the REAL news about the conflicts occurring, various battles, ALL legislation, etc. It did not affect any of us adversely being aware of the situation. It actually provided a better understanding of what we were working for when we had "magazine & newspaper drives", collected old tires and turned them in for a few cents, saved the tin foil from gum wrappers, the mature milk-weed pods, etc. and had "Victory Gardens" which were tilled by hand.

It all resulted in better educating us to the realities of life.

Roffay, I don't think I've read anything coming out of Massachusetts which would be anything but opinion of the left. Their last candidate for president lost and it severely rankles and colors any opinion from that fair state, NOT to say it began with his loss, since their Senator Kennedy will do all he can to keep it going. In my opinion he is a low-life who left a poor girl to die so as to save himself. Yes, foreign media pick up on these reports from the USA and they so carefully choose what they want to print, which eliminates the other side and there is one.

ALICE B - Thank you for putting that unsavoury Massachusetts report into perspective for me.

I see lots of complaints about the news coverage of the TV channels and printed news media.

Let me just ask: Who of you has written to the offending network or other news outlet and given a thoughtful assessment of how you are dissatisfied by their coverage? If enough people took the trouble to write--maybe not just once, but whenever coverage of a particular event seems biased or slanted-- perhaps we could change things. Just as it does eventually pay off if enough of us write our congressmen/women, so too do the media listen to consumers of their 'product'.

Of course, the media do consider us outside of the age group they wish to target, but what the heck, we might strike a chord somewhere.

I, personally, am going to begin writing to MSNBC and CNN and after fussing about some of their 'commentators' (e.g., Rita Crosby), suggest that they try one program that would focus on a single issue, with a single authority, perhaps a scholar, who could present both sides of an issue.

When I lived in SF, and also when I belonged to the League of Women Voters, whenever there was an election, they prepared an extensive pamphlet that set forth the positions of each candidate from whatever party. (I well remember one candidate running in SF: Sister BoomBoom.) That way one could make some kind of informed decision. Here in VA, it's hard to tell which party a candidate represents--sometimes even on their own literature. I have to do my research before I go to the Poll, and take my own 'crib' sheet.

I'd like to start a movement toward REALLY objective coverage of the news. And I also feel that the TV news channels should stop showing over and over the same scenes. It makes it hard to tell whether what I'm looking at is 'now', or 2 weeks ago.

Oh yes, and has any of you seen the new program on MSNBC called The Ethical Edge? They pick a topic and have some experts discuss the ethical issues involved. It's sure a step in the right direction.

It is fruitless to contact the media, at least I have found this to be true from my own experiences. I have contacted newspapers in various areas where I have lived pointing out to them the need to print a story which I am aware of. They promise nothing, and nothing is ever printed. I leave the "reasons" to the imagination!!

I have also pursued writing to Washington legislators concerning various issues... sometimes it has taken as long as 3-4 months to even receive a response. I can understand this given the volume of mail they must receive, not to mention e-mail.

Do not know what the answer is!

Quicksilver,

I share your frustration. Have you tried writing to the ombudsman of the print media you read (that is, if they have one).

As for writing to your reps and senators: It's the number of posts they get on either side that counts. As you probably are aware, they probably don't ever read those posts themselves. Each of them has a staff of people whose sole job duty is to read and respond to mail from constituents. My rep, in response to an email from me about the pending situation of the world running out of oil, even sent me some printed material on the subject. But it was very general. In response, she's going to get some material from me that is very specific--chiefly about the 1972 Club of Rome publication "Limits to Growth" and a subsequent analysis of its predictions as of 2000.

On a more amusing note: Yesterday while watching CNN, I noticed that the 'crawl' across the bottom of the screen was saying that something or someone 'sites' some source. It took them just about 3 minutes to run another squib while they corrected it to 'cites'. I laughed out loud.

The use of the English language and the spelling of print media is pretty bad. Many times I have to stop, think what is really meant, and substitute that for what has been printed. And I swear, if I hear just one more expert on whatever proclaim that the "proof is in the pudding" instead of "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" I'll erupt.

You may as well get prepared to erupt.

At the present time being a full-time caregiver, it is not possible for me to pursue writing and calling as I did in the past. "Yes", it is very frustrating to expend the time and energy pursuing objectives which appear to be so elusive.

I am aware that the individual to whom the correspondence is directed does not personally read it and has staff to undertake such chores. When living in another state there were toll free numbers (for local contact) for the Congressional people which was nice.

I'm laughing at your description of the writing on the CNN flash line! I saw so much incorrect grammar usage and misspelling in one newspaper that I actually went to the office and asked if they had a "proof reader" position open. HA!! Well, I was told that the Editor was the proof reader! 'Nuff said about that issue!!

Just a quick comment here. The English language is continually evolving so many sayings we would think are incorrect are now accepted usage. We have to remember that. A language is living and continually evolving.

I too write many letters to Govt. I am lucky that here, there is such a small population I get an answer within two or three weeks. Recently I got an email full reply from our Foreign affairs minister about my query regarding aid for Katrina victims. It took only two days. He knows me now as I am always emailing his office!

jeanlock - Years ago, there was a program on PBS, produced by Fred Friendly, called Ethics in America. The one you mention sounds sort of like that. I'll look for the one on MSNBC.

Also, is there a League of Women Voters where you live now? I've been a member since the late 60s. Unfortunately, the group here seems to be in hibernation and I've done my time in leadership. In another location, I did Voter Service, President, etc., but don't want to that any more - just want to be a participating member. Sighhhhhhh

I do my share of letter writing, too - for all the good it does. Mostly, I think, it makes ME feel better.

Re spelling, etc. - Unfortunately, NOBODY does proof-reading anymore. Spellchecker is supposed to take care of that. Unfortunately it doesn't guarantee that the correct word is used - just that it's SPELLED correctly. Sort of reminds me of the Henry Higgins line from My Fair Lady - "the French don't care what they DO actually, as long as they pronounce it properly." But, as I've mentioned before, I'm one of those people who corrects typos and spellchecker errors in books.

Yes, language is living and continually evolving, but I hope it never accepts someone saying, "I seen it," as proper. Yep, I know... minor, minor. So many of these English errors have been duly covered in the usage folder, I won't comment on more of them here.

Mary Z, an application for an art teaching job mailed to me, at my request, contained several spelling errors. I botched the opportunity for the job by correcting the errors and mailing it back. Never heard from them. ha

"the proof of the pudding is in the eating" ..
I didn't know that.

Thanks Jean for posting that.

Now my question is: Is the "eating" proof that it is pudding? Or is the "eating" determining the quality of the pudding?

If it is both, then shouldn't it read: The proofs of the pudding is in the eating?

gone fishing:

This is not intended as a criticism and hope it is not viewed as such.

A plural subject requires a plural verb... e.g. The "proofs" of the pudding "are" in the eating.

At least that what I was taught. The important issue is conveying the message irrespective of the methodology utilized.

Then changing the prepositional phrases to be plural is out of the question? heheh ... The proofs of the puddings are in the eatings.

QUICKSILVER AND JEANLOCK - I'm all for protesting - can't stand apathy and the oft heard comment "someone ought to do something about it".

But I have a theory. I don't think there is anyone (human that is) out there listening any more. I think all our comments now go to computers which are programmed to send out a cleverly written standard response which manages to cover all manner of complaints.

In my continued childlike trust I still write to chairmen of large companies expressing my dissatisfaction with a product or service. I always explain that my reason is well meant in order that their product or service can be improved - good for business - right?

I go to the top and whereas at one time I did get a letter back adressing my actual complaint - now I receive one of those ultra polite blanket letters sometimes enclosing a paltry placebo money token. How I hate the feeling that I'm being bought off.

I'm very much on the verge of ceasing to complain and just accept the status quo.

BUT DON'T LET ME DISCOURAGE YOU - KEEP TRYING AND GOOD LUCK

JEANLOCK - Just an aside. Like your "proof of the pudding......" I have some dislikes too. Like "gilding the lily" which should of course be "painting" and oh how often "under the circumstances" when it should of course be "in". You can't be under something surrounding you but I very seldom hear this expression used correctly.

If a phrase is rarely used correctly: that's an example it has been adapted as correct.

ALICE B - "...adopted as correct" That's my son's theory - language evolves according to usage. But my feeling is that if it is wrong misuse doesn't make it right. Language and speech are so precious they should be safeguarded and nurtured.

Roffay, since I was joking... forget it.

jeanlock - you mentioned The Ethical Edge on MSNBC. I hate to show my ignorance, but do you watch that on your computer? Or is it a TV station that our cable system doesn't carry? When I try msnbc.com, it doesn't say anything about a TV station. We get CNBC. Help!!!

My cable has MSNBC. It's listed next under CNBC. My Sunday TV guide has an article about a new show on UPN and I can't find a UPN on my cable listing... grrrr

ALICE B - Shows how seriously I feel about language - can't see the joke for the trees. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALICE B - Nice one - you win.

Well I have "foot in mouth" disease......

And as you know, gone fishing, there is no cure. I have it, also. I think it comes from growing up in a world where it was not necessary to carefully gauge each word said.

A prepositional phrase does not affect the plurality of a verb. It acts as a modifier of the sentence.

The word "pudding" or "puddings" is the objective of the prepositional phrase in this instance.

Therefore it matters not whether that word is singular or plural.

At least that is what I was taught, and I was an English major.

Again, this is not intended as any critism and hope that it is does not convey that implication.

Hey are youse guys a little off topic

Yes, looking at the definition at the top of the web site it probably IS "off topic".

However, if I can learn anything in any discussion, it is more interesting.

I cannot determine whether or not this is "off topic". I do hope not as I am looking forward to an exchange of information to broaden my own knowledge base.

Learning something new every day is a challenge and very rewarding for me. However, I will not refer to this subject again in this forum just to be safe.

As so often happens, it did not occur to me my silly post would not be recognized as a joke. LOL

My face is "very red" at the moment!! I do need the levity and now I can REALLY chuckle over that. LOL!

Being a full-time caregiver, I need all of the humor I can find, so it is doubly appreciated. Thank you for that!!

I was caregiver for several years of my parents when they were in their nineties, so, I fully understand. We caregivers are a separate breed, I think.

Now, I would like to have one.

I do sincerely hope that neither of us ever needs a full-time caregiver. Understand the humor in your comments, however and appreciate that!

Hope and pray that a vaccine, or some other preventive measure will be found and SOON for Alzheimer's.

Your humor is SO refreshing, I love it!!

Good point, jeanlock, about writing to the powers that be to let them know of our concerns. Most of the time it's like the weather; we all talk about it , but. . . . As for the ombudsmen -- do all newspapers have them?

For those of you looking for specific programs like MSNBC's Ethical Edge, for example, might try this site Zapit2 Index . Type in your zip code and it should bring up a listing of channels and programs. (Ethical Edge for my area,CDT, is on at 7 pm tonight.) Our paper doesn't publish a TV guide, only a daily evening schedule which doesn't say much, so this is what I use, a lot. You can also click on the individual channels to get each one's weekly schedule of programs.

For all you proofreaders out there, may I recommend a couple of books --Eats Shoots and Leaves and Woe is Me. The former is truly funny and I've heard the other is also very amusing. (My summer job during college was as a proofreader for the local newspaper.)

Am leaving you for a while for the news. CNN and FOX must take turns offering CC on the weekends and Fox has Sunday nights. If I wait too long, I'll get stuck with Oliver's war stories.

Well, I looked at the site you sent, and we do get the channel. I wonder why it isn't listed in the book. Live and learn. Many thanks.

I loved Eats, Shoots and Leaves, pedln. Remember, we did a discussion of the book here on SeniorNet last year.

"The proof (singular) of the pudding (singular) is (singular verb) in the eating". Loosely translated, you can't tell how good the pudding is until you eat it. Saying "The proof is in the pudding" makes no sense unless you're hiding clues in the pudding itself. People just spout off what they 'think' they heard somewhere without even stopping to ask themselves if it makes sense.

Ethics in America: MSNBC TV at 8 pm EDST; and 2 am EDST.

As for the PBS series Ethics in America: my son's then-girlfriend gave me the whole set for Christmas one year. My personal feeling is that it should be required in every highschool in the country.

CNN: I particularly like Aaron Brown because he seems to be thoughtful; Anderson Cooper (Did you know he's Gloria Vanderbilt's son?) because he exudes empathy. And CNN also has a program called Reliable Sources where they critique newspeople.

My father's parents were Slovaks who came to America to work in the coal mines and thus his first language was Slovak. He taught himself English and at 14 left the coal mines to attend a business school in Youngstown where I expect he learned English from a book. He read a lot, and was an absolute tyrant about our speaking English correctly. And I did the same for my kids. To my mind, sloppy usage indicates sloppy thinking. And if I'm looking to TV people and newspapers for accurate information to guide me in making up my mind about something, I want to be sure they really intend to say what comes out. And, come to think of it: Dad was a banker who had to balance his accounts (pre-computer) every night before he came home. I remember his telling a story about the customer who remarked one day, "John, you're just too darn much a perfectionist." Dad looked at him, and said, "Joe, when you ask me to change a dollar bill, you don't want me to give you 99 cents, do you? I HAVE to be a perfectionist." And he created a family of perfectionists who drive everyone else mad. But that's the way it is. As a computer programmer I also learned that 'almost right' won't work. I want my news sources to be factually accurate. THEN if they want to add their own preferences, at least I'm sure where they come from.

Also, my working life as a proofreader made me a stickler for seeing errors in printed material (except my own, of course). And when I was writing computer documentation I was determined to make it clear to the reader so I always tried not to use words which might have more than one meaning. I figured that if someone had to stop and say "which meaning does the writer intend?" I had failed.

" People just spout off what they 'think' they heard somewhere without even stopping to ask themselves if it makes sense. "...

(jab)

We need to lighten up and speak of the important things that going on in our country right now. Especially the lack of trust that we all seem to be experiencing in the "News" that is feed to us daily.

Is a reference listed at the top of the page. The following is quoted from the article:

"The lack of consistency in news definition and news interest, coupled with ever increasing media fragmentation, may suggest that news programs for a mass audience are becoming obsolete. Moreover, only one content area received high ratings across all demographic groups for both "newsworthiness" and interest: local weather reports."

Weather! The main interest.

I have been quite amazed at the frequency of Fox weather reports. They seem to just go on and on!

I'm a regular poster on Gripes and Grumbles and I now have a major gripe for them. There are so many postings on this one I can't keep up. I need a private secretary to help me - no - make that two.

How funny! I adore weather........just as I love storms, thunder, and rain.......I watch "storm stories" on the weather channel from time to time.....I like to know what is going on throughout the world and my country as relates to weather as well as news.......as you can imagine I was glued to the weather channel as Katrina enterd the Gulf. This may be because I come from a rural area where much depends on the weather. I am also an avid gardener and need at every moment to know what the weather is!.....lol..........So you see......isn't it wonderful all the news sources we have ....something for everyone.

And here I am thinking there are so few posts. Yes, Nancy, is so right... she loves weather, I pay little attention most of the time, you say too many posts here, I say too few. I know I've not written with proper punctuation, but I don't care. Others care. I say tomato, you say tomahto. You say potahto, I say potayto!

AliceB--

I realize we differ on precision in language, etc., but tell me--what if you were to have someone in the Soc Sec dept make a 1-character error in your number and your benefits went to someone else, me, for example?

You know, actually, I once worked on a contract for the company that wrote the computer software for ALL of the checks written by the government, including Social Security. A mistake in one of those programs could well result in your check(s) either go to someone else, or being cancelled altogether. Computers are unforgiving. They don't KNOW it's a mistake.

Appropos--and not strictly on subject--I once worked on a computer project for the Navy. Every month when the program ran, one record kept being rejected. It took us several months to figure out why the system wouldn't accept that record. It was for a man who had been 'selected' but who had not actually reported for duty because he had died. There was no code in the program for "died while in selected status". One of my favorite stories.

Too busy today to post ref today's stuff, but I'll be back tonight.

To me, there is precision and then there is precision. Sometimes it matters. Sometimes it doesn't. Braincells enter in to aid one to know the difference. A little joke in a senior forum is such a teensy tiny matter, it is rather silly to think it must be corrected. That is only my opinion and God only knows I can be as uptight as the next uptight person in certain circumstances, but, I also thank God, it tain't ever minute minute of da day. I have been around people who think they were put on earth to correct the world... well, they weren't. I like language and most of it I prefer to be reasonably proper, but I will not be keeping myself rolled into a ball over it, because in this place and many others, in the overall scheme of life, it doesn't matter a rat's hat.

jeanlock, you bring up a very scary point. What if the computer software is wrong. A million years ago I took a very very basic course in basic. The instructor emphasized "flags" and other checks and balances which would help denote errors. One would hope that these C & B's would keep improving and becoming more sophisticated as the programs developed.

Supposedly, we have checks and balances throughout our everyday life, including our government, the Constitution. etc. What about the News Media? Do you see checks and balances there? Can you give any examples?

Gone fishing raises the question of trust. Is what we perceive as truth really truth unless proven otherwise? For myself, I don't think I could go through life doubting everything I heard. But, like many of you, I don't rely on just one source, and if I have questions, I try to find the answers.

Alice, thanks for the quote from Radio News. Perhaps the weather news. is so popular because it is so uncontroversial -- and we can trust it. My local paper covers itself well by saying "maybe a thunderstorm."

By the way, there are lots of articles pertaining to the state of the news media out there. If you find one you particularly like, please bring it here.

In this discussion we're interested in what you think and what you have to say. You're not getting a grade on spelling and punctuation. For some, those items come easily, for others, not so. Don't worry about it too much.

Alice -- I just saw your post above. Love that expression -- rolled into a ball. If the repairman doesn't show up today, I'll try not to.

ALICE B - But lets NOT call the whole thing off.

Just back from the first morning of the Autumn term of a current affairs discussion group to which I belong. (NOTE Alice - I didn't end the sentence with a preposition!!)

And what did we discuss? Katrina of course, the German election, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey and the European Union and one or two other topics. Very little to do with Britain.

Why am I getting the impression from these postings that Americans would rather talk about the US.

Is your last sentence a question? I can't tell for sure, but it might be rhetorical and no answer needed. Ah, yes, that's it!

Seriously though, I've been looking up sites having to do with trusting the news. Odd the way Google interpretes my terms. Illuminati News; Romania trusting the EU; trust in God; medical beliefs; a festival in Madagascar.

Easy to see my work is cut out for me, but at the moment I've learned on Animal Planet if beavers did not gnaw on trees, their incisors would keep growing growing growing. Do you have those rodents in the UK? See? I'm steering talk to your side of the world which I enjoyed very much when visiting.

Since a discussion relevant to proper use of grammar is not deemed an "appropriate" subject for this forum I am not responding to your post re: The Proof is in the pudding".

Each individual may create his/her writing as that person wishes.

I, too, have enjoyed the weather channel. I like it mostly because there isn't a lot of commentary and they really stick to the facts. I also like Fox for the opposite reason, they have a lot of commentary and I like to pit my opinions against theirs. I have read the New York Times for many years but never had the chance to read the Washington Post. I think I will in the near future. I used to enjoy listening to Rush L., not because I agreed with him but because it was another opinion I could bounce from. I think The Week looks interesting. I have book marked that page and may end up subscribing. We used to have two papers here, both morning. One was news shorts...if you wanted more information on a subject you could look it up somewhere else (and it had a great crossword puzzle). The other paper bought it out and I miss it. The other paper pretty much concentrates on the professional football team we have in our city and the local news and gossip. While it is fun to read at times, I can't use it for my source for news. I'm enjoying this forum with all the opinions and new information.

ALICE B - I'll rephrase that last sentence and maybe I'll get a response.

I am getting the impression from these postings that Americans would rather just talk about the US.

"No man is an island"

I like news from all over the world.

Illuminati News? I am going to dig into that one, until it annoys me enough to stop (which could be today or never! lol)

...No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee...

---John Donne

Is it not a miracle we have computers to link us even more? Moments ago, as thoughts of a certain person came to me, I glanced over and was surprised to see an unexpected email from her.

I like news from the world over, also. Right now I am going to read of the strange festival in Madagascar and possibly report a synopsis later.

Roffay....I love all things English...My neighbor is from England and just recently became a U.S. citizen.....His family still all live in England.....When he goes home he all ways brings me a little something back, I watch his dog quite a bit.. I have met his mum and dad and they are the best. I take a British gardening magazine that the BBC puts out. It is the best gardening magazine I have ever had . Now as for spelling etc. I shouldn't think we would want to dwell on that to much here. I would hate not to post and enjoy the discussions for fear I would be criticized for my short comings. Who reads UTNE magazine and what do you think of it?

NANCY L SMITH - As a matter of fact I like all - no that would be impossible - most things American.

The best holidays I had were those when I met up with American fellow travellers. Wonderful company, so friendly, such great sense of humour and always so thoughtful.

It's not always easy to find international news sources for those of us who speak only English. I'm not familiar enough with these newspapers to describe their perspectives, but offer them as a start for those seeking more international news.

Christian Science Monitor and

International Herald Tribune

Googling for international news can be somewhat daunting. A lot probably depends on what one puts in the "not" line.

I think many of us are interested in news and writers from countries other than our own. On SeniorNEt, one outcome of that is the RATW discussion, otherwise known as Read Around the World , extablished several months ago to focus on modern writers from other than the U.S. or England. So far we've read titles from Afghanistan, New Zealand, Italy, and beginning Oct. 1, Spain. You are all welcome to join us.

Nancy, I've heard of the Utne Reader, but have not read it. Those interested in knowing more can find it here UTNE . This is what the publishers say about themselves.
Founded in 1984 by Eric Utne, UTNE MAGAZINE reprints the best articles from over 2,000 alternative media sources bringing you the latest ideas and trends emerging in our culture...

Roffay, your discussion group sounds like a very positive activity. Are you directed to any specific sources prior to your meeting, or is it just assumed that people wouldn't be there unless they had informed themselves about the issues?

Annie, I used to listen to Rush L, too, mainly to relieve the tedium of driving long distances. He is from my town, graduated from the high school where I worked (before my time.) When my son first heard him on the radio his comment was, "well, I see neither party has a monopoly of outspoken obnoxious broadcasters." But I like the comment of a woman who said to some fellow travellers when they heard where she was from, "Whatever your feelings about Rush, I can guarantee you would have liked his mother." Probably one of the best kept secrets in broadcasting was that when his mother was dying of cancer, he did his broadcasting from here for several weeks. Not a word about it until after the fact.

Most foreign news services such as France and Germany do have overseas English language programs. You just have to be able to access them.Community TV screens some of them here. DW from Germany for instance has really good foreign coverage and I have got lots of reports from Africa that I would not have seen on other networks. You would be amazed how much foreign aid Germany gives. They just don't make a song and dance about it. They are very very generous in Africa for instance.

Carolyn

stage their foreign aid as a full musical. Otherwise the worldwide media would scream and yell from dawn to dusk and then some that we give nothing, or not enough, or bellow something else criticizing the way it is given. That's the sort of people they are and others. No regard for much but what will sell and what will promote their own beliefs, whether it is true or false. It really is nice that Germany can do so much so quietly. So admirable. Not possible in my country, although I doubt it would really make much difference. If we aren't under the critical microscope for one thing the barracudas are ready to strike for another.

I just wrote a letter to them complaining about the fee. There is no paper, ink or delivery charge to their providing the newspaper on line for us. It's just a money grab and I'll discontinue my subscription if I have to pay for it. The washington post is better anyhow and I have hat also...at least until they decide to charge also. . . . Claire

As a programmer, I know someone is working pretty darn hard gathering information news and putting it on line in the NYT.

their systems have been in place for a long time now. At least I remember when they did charge and when they stopped charging which is when I subscribed. . . . .that was a long time ago too. . . .Claire

I get an online free email from NYT with various top stories with links. It covers the big stories from overseas, the US and because I like books it has links to the book reviews and I get sports links.

I don't get editorials normally as I think you have to pay for those now. Its expensive for me to buy from here with the exchange rate etc.

I like the NYT.

Carolyn

I wonder whether our minds can cope with such a barrage of news and info. from the time we get up in the morning, till we go to bed at night. Might the ever increasing violence and over the top behaviour in the world, be due in part to just too much information. Never in the history of the world have we been expected to hold so much in our brains, and on a daily basis. I fall asleep listening to a late night current events program. In my dreams people say things that I recognise in the morning as "news jargon".

This little extract from City Of The Mind sums it up for me.

"He carries yesterday with him, but pushes forward into today, and tomorrow, skipping as he will from one to the other. He is in London, on a May morning of the late twentieth century, but is also in many other places, and at other times. He twitches the knob of his radio: New York speaks to him, five hours ago, is superseded by Australia tomorrow and presently by India this evening. He learns of events that have not yet taken place, of deaths that have not yet occurred."

JAN - thanks for that quote. It says so well what we all experience these days of mass, mass communication. Outer space included!!

Quite a few postings back Happy Bill and I both registered a reference to a mag. called The Week. This, with readable brevity, extracts important all-media comments from home and around the world. A great way to keep abreast of the news with limited time.

Any of you remember waaaaaay back to the first years of CNN, when Ted Turner was in charge? I was "at" the Falkland war with CNN. And I'll never forget actually seeing the beginning of the first Iraq war when I was watching Bernard Shaw who suddenly announced that there were shells falling. It seemed almost miraculous to me that I could be really an eyewitness to the real-time beginning of a war. Imagine if we could have seen the Germans march into Poland!

Then there was the awful Crossfire type program where the 'attraction' was simply to see who could yell the loudest. I soon gave up on that. And now confrontational 'news' seems to be replaced by the cult of 'personality'. Watch either CNN or MSNBC and mostly you are getting 'personalities' and 'glitz'. It's not the 'news' now that matters, but 'who' is doing the 'reporting'. Scarborough time; Hardball with Chris Matthews; Abrams 'reporting'(in his own point of view) on legal things; Keith Olberman, etc. In addition, they concentrate so hard on glitzy special effects that it's positively dizzying. And it seems they really spend very little time on depth.

TV can do a great job in the crunch. They were really great in the first weeks of the Katrina coverage showing the entire country what the government seemingly wasn't aware of. (never mind the preposition at the end of that sentence--I'm stressed out from changing ISPs and in a hurry).

And now, with this new hurricane coming, it's almost as if they will be disappointed if it just blows out to sea or wherever harmlessly because it wouldn't be so much of a story.

There are exceptions. What CNN is doing to help reunite families by showing pictures of missing children is a really good thing and even tho there have only been a couple of dozen families reunited, even one would make it worth while, and it costs them little.

It does seem to me that, on balance, the news channels are pretty good at showing enough of what is really happening that I can weigh their 'showing' me what's happening vs having someone give me THEIR interpretation of what's happening. I can recall a number of instances where I've been watching something happening in real-time on TV and the at the end, the so-called reporter-commentator came forth with something that directly contradicted what I had just seen.

And now, I'm going to sit out the heat and do some reading.

Do any of you have reporter-commentators whom you trust? Right now, based on an interview I saw with him on TV, I think Brian Williams is headed for the Peter Jennings type of reporter.

Oh yes, one more thing. Going back to the Dan Rather fiasco. The whole flap that got him fired was NOT on the truth of the information itself, but on the fact that the documents they showed were fake.

During the wall-to-wall coverage of Katrina, Natalie Holloway was nearly forgotten, as was Cindy Sheehan. Natalie's mother surfaced late last week, and today is the first time I've heard Cindy Sheehan mentioned--just now on MSNBC.

"The Week" ... Sort of like "Readers Digest"??

(Too right leaning for me, I am afraid)

(And now, with this new hurricane coming, it's almost as if they will be disappointed if it just blows out to sea or wherever harmlessly because it wouldn't be so much of a story.) I agree with this comment that jeanlock made. The news people seem to be hoping for the worst. I have HGTV on, no news there.

I am glued to the weather channel until this thing is over with.....I looked for "Ode" magazine at Barnes&Noble yesterday but unfortunately they don't carry it........I see that on line they are offering a subscription for 10.00 for awhile......I would like to look at one before I do that......it does look interesting though.......

And maybe if I were closer to the hurricanes I would be watching. I even read something today Dan Rather said about how news has evolved the past several years. Clearly he followed that path and even went lower than some, not that I give much credence to any of them. Those who wish to attempt knowing some semblance of "truth" have to read "right leaning" material if they really want to off set the "left leaning" material. My preference is to be straight up. The knowledgeable bloggers are such delights. I revel in their ability to ferret out what the regular media attempts to hide. Some of it may be incorrect. Well, so is the slanted information from mainline outlets. Eenie, meenie, minie moe.... decide which news is that to know... ha ha ha and away we go...

Now to check out HGTV.

How far should News people go in reporting the news? How far is too far? We've had a bad situation here with a politician who was being promoted as the next Premier of New South Wales. At a party one night, with a few drinks under his belt he made a stupid derogatory comment about the Premier's wife and came on to a couple of female journalists. This seemed a bit out of character for him, but the press siezed on it and splashed it over every paper and TV program. Result, he fell on his sword and resigned, his career in tatters.

The Press wasn't satisfied and kept on digging and probing. The headlines next day were going to be "Brogden's Sordid Past". That night he tried to commit suicide and there was an incredible backlash against the media, by friends and politicians blaming newspapers for almost costing him his life. He had a wife and small child. Apparently there wasn't very much truth in the "sordid" revelations and a lot of suggestive speculation.

Questions were being asked about the ethics of journalism and how far someone can be pursued. Questions about compassion, forgiveness, and should every person be entitled to make one mistake. Is it fair to drag a man's innocent family into the spotlight? There was a series on TV here recently showing how journalists in all mediums, Radio, TV, and print make their decisions and how they wrestle with the problem of what to show, or how far too push. Some of their stories were real eye-openers, we don't usually realize what soul searching goes on in responsible journalists.

Several years ago a governor of Oklahoma's 18 year old son was troubled (was taking meds for it) but, he was arrested for something (can't recall what, but it was not a major crime.)... the media hounded his every move... every time his dad spoke, the first question had to do with the boy. They camped on his doorstep and the boy killed himself. Apparently, those who hammered at the kid's every move didn't care or feel responsible. It all contributed to my often contempt for such coverage.

Jan, what you tell about your official... it is truly refreshing it is about someone in your country rather than what so often happens with people outside the USA in internet forums ... they tend to tell of events in my country. When I see their names, I know it will be there soon in not then. I appreciate your post and am so sorry this type of reporting seems to be universal.

Alice, perhaps because your country is the common ground, that everyone in the world gets to hear about. What happens in our countries would usually bore the pants off people. Nobody wants to hear all about our election's etc.LOL

Also Alice, it has to be said that decisions made in your country affect our lives, sometimes irrevocably, so it's understandable that we can have strong feelings about things American, and want to voice our opinions and concerns. It doesn't mean that we don't enjoy friendship with the people.

Jan our election has been reported overseas for the first time for ages. Its because it was such a close race and so much negotiating is going on right now.

There seems to be a real appetite for anything to do with peoples private lives particularly their sexual behaviour. It appears to me its and excuse for the holier than thou to indulge their not so holy private fantasies. It is an unhealthy interest I think.

I would be more worried about dishonesty in business dealings and a persons views on race etc than their private lives. That is except if they were rapists or paedofiles which is something that we should worry about.

Carolyn

Carolyn, the comment about Bob Carr's wife was racial, he referred to her as "a mail-order bride", she's from the Phillipines, and he deserved to be dragged over the coals on that one. He rightly apologized and resigned. Although, that might have been taking it too far, should one stupid comment ruin a really good career?

Problem was when the Press didn't know when to stop, and his family was being dragged into it, and there was some salacious embroidering of the facts, I think. Journalists have to have a line to stop at-enough and no further.

Your election is dragging on, seems to me it's still not clear about the winner? Of course you have that different system so it's as clear as mud to us!

PS: Things have gone so over the top now with this PC thing. Once if a tipsy bloke made a pass at someone, he was goodnaturedly told to make himself scarce. Now they're on the phone to the News people immediately.

Oh what we learn on the internet especialy on S/N as I am now watching the BBC news as our local channels do not tell us much local news except sports as the wrecks local do not get reported neither our fires or crimes as they report the world news and then we get the world news that I am tired of it and am now watching BBC only.

Thank you.

Welcome Jan and Ginger. We're glad you're here.

Jan and Carolyn, concerning the election in your part of the world. Anyone in public life who makes a racial slur or innuendo about another politician or his family, and then pinches the bottom of a member of the opposite sex is going to bring on the press. But I agree with you that the media too often keeps prolonging the issue. FAIR - Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting offers this explanation --although it doesn't excuse it.

"Profit-driven news organizations are under great pressure to boost ratings by sensationalizing the news: focusing attention on lurid, highly emotional stories, often featuring a bizarre cast of characters and a gripping plot but devoid of significance to most people's lives. From Tonya Harding to O.J. Simpson to Elian Gonzalez, major news outlets have become more and more dependent on these kind of tabloid soap operas to keep profits high." (from FAIR )

Jeanlock, I remember CNN during the first Gulf War and Iraq. We were watching scud missiles on TV! As you so aptly put it, an eyewitness to the beginning of a war. But network TV also allowed us to be witnesses by cancelling regular programming and showing such newsworthy events as the Watergate hearings, the Clarence THomas/Anita Hill hearings. In 1989, my two youngest daughters moved out to the SF BAy area, one to Berkeley and one to Santa Cruz, just shortly before the big earthquake. The networks showed nothing else, and I was so grateful that night to have that link, to actually see what was going on (and not learn until later how close the epicenter was to Santa Cruz.) Now I wonder if network TV has given up on or relinquished that kind of programming to cable.

So, does that mean that only those who pay for cable will have access to the majority of news programs?

I found this while looking for something else -- a cbsnews.com article asking if the media fell down on the job by not providing information about the damage and danger potential of a hurricane in New Orleans.
Media: An Early Warning System Or Hype Machine?

That was an interesting link, on early warning.
But I'm afraid newspapers, and even magazines, are fighting an uphill battle. Fewer and fewer people read them. In this morning's paper there was an article about the NY Times/Boston Globe having to fire 500 staffers, including around 100 news reporters.
It doesn't look good for the long run, as advertising revenue keeps dropping. Will there even be newspapers in 50 years?

On the other hand, I don't think our nation ought to depend on any written, once-a-day new media for warnings of emergencies such as hurricanes.
Does everyone watch TV? It's probably the best way to reach the general population; what does everyone think?

PEDLN: Thanks for the link. I read the article and went to a couple of links in the article that were interesting.

Here Byron Calame, public editor of the New York Times, recently took his paper to task for its coverage of New Orleans over the past ten years.

In another link from the same article Slate's Marc Siegel emphasizes the role of stress in our lives and states: News outlets have to pick and choose wisely, and media watchers hope Katrina will spur more stories about real dangers and less about How Your Carpet Could Kill You!

MIPPY: I haven't read any newspaper, other than a small local one, in a long time. I am more likely to get my news from Newsweek or TV. I did just order a subscription to The Week that has been mentioned here to get another slant on things. You bring up a good point -- how can news be reported so that the people who need to know will actually get it?

I don't think columnists telling what media should do or not do will be at all effective, anymore than one of us saying it. Also, thanks for the link, Pedin. It led me to many others including bloggers categorized as Left-Wing Blogs; Middle-Wing Blogs; Right-Wing Conspirators; Humor Blogs. Not even 3 guesses the beliefs of the people choosing the labels. rofl. Simply cannot keep from wondering if accusing one wing of conspiracies is really indicative the accuser is more worried about such? (Not really wondering... the answer is clear, at least to me from my view of the volly from either field. Will be interesting to see if the middle-wingers are really really and if I can figure it out.

Want to add my experience with how others will comment has to do totally with a forum with no connection to SenNet, since I do not know anyone well enough in SenNet to know how they are "always" likely to comment regarding anything having to do with the USA. Sometimes it's easy to forget how words appear and I want to clarify what I posted before. Also glad, Jan, for your additional post about elections in your country and mine, although I do think more of it around the world is interesting than might be thought.

Marjorie, thanks for the links to the NYT and Slate articles. In the Slate article, Siegal was arguing against the media hype about avian flu. It was interesting to note that at the end of the article the editors provided links to Slate articles having an opposing or different focus, thus demonstrating an advantage of online sources -- instant access.

The other day Jan asked if we could cope with so much news and information -- your example from "City of the Mind" was so appropo. I guess my answer there would be that at least we have the choices. The important thing is knowing how to assess and use them. Our educational institutions have been attempting that through the ages, but have a much harder job now.

Claire, you raised an issue the other day about free access to online newspapers. I'm grateful that we have what we have, but I wonder how long it will last. The print version of the Sunday NYT here would cost me $5.00 -- for one issue, yet online it costs me nothing. How long can the media keep this up? As long as the advertising pays off? There are costs involved with online publishing, and it would not surprise me if more and more online papers will be charging subscription fees. Then I guess we narrow our choice.

So, my last question of the day -- when everything costs, who will be obligated to provide free access?

I suppose we will find out whether the death knell reports are true. I'm sure some reporters will find many slants for presentation and those who insist sending me forwarded email WARNINGS will get into the act. I don't read the warnings, so no telling what specter is hovering other than what I already know too well.

Media will never return to "Happy Days" ways. As Carolyn said, the titillating secrets of public people will always be of interest to many. I like some of it and some I'd rather not know.

How often through the years I think I've learned something new and next thing I know, it has been debunked. I hate that. I wanted to believe George Washington could not tell a lie about chopping down the cherry tree.

This on-line news covers various issues & news by-lines from all over the world. It is full of links, and although (I think) it considers itself "conservative", it does have almost every aspect people find to be of interest on its web site. I seldom watch TV news and never watch the "political talk shows", so this is an easy method for me to try to keep up with the news.

I also have a few web sites which send me news (e.g. Consumer Affairs) which I like to follow.

Here is the link for World Net Daily:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/

The first 10 links World Net Daily were about homosexuality and its effect on our life...

So if you like gay bashing, I guess that is the place to go!

I don't see any news value at all over there. Only hate.

World Net Daily is a predominately conservative news site. Once in awhile you may find a non right leaning article.

Normally I have never seen, in the past, such a barrage of "discriminatory and hateful" statements on that web site. I was dismayed when I saw it all - - MORE than "overkill".

I have always perceived this web site as being conservative, however I have seen some ultra-liberal articles posted as well which is the reason I normally recommend it for a "look-see".

My apologies about that!

"My apologies about that!"

No problem..... Hey if I was a conservative I would have been happy you posted that web site

No apology necessary but thankyou for explaining that you too, were surprised.

I consider myself an "independent", and intensely dislike any radical rhetoric. Try to read as much as possible on the Net, and I should have "screened" that WND web site before I ever recommended it for a "look-see"!!

Nevertheless, it is embarrassing to recommend a site and then see something as bad as that posted on there!!

Thank you both for being so gracious about my error.

-- seems the Internet brings out the worst in some sites hoping to get attention. Page 2 wasn't so bad and had some news worthy ?? stories. But it is interesting , that the few who viewed the site here, said they would not return. I won't either. Their front page was enough to drive away the ordinary reader.

I bookmarked it for later so haven't had the privlege yet of reading what this group would likely call FILTH. Sometimes though it's necessary to see what 39 percent of the USA population thinks. . after all they vote too. . claire. . . liberal enough to letthem have their say.

Pedlin, I think we all have an appetite for learning about famous people's lives, and have that eagerness to know just who they really are. I remember the anger over Princess Diana, and whether the reporters drove her to her death. So how far should the News be pursued? One of the Editors here pointed out that we were all guilty, because it was our curiousity that drove the Media machine. I know Reporters did some soul-searching and a pact was made with the Press to back off William and Harry until they finished school. It was largely adhered to, I think

I don't think newspapers are going to disappear, we always need the news behind the news, all the background, and you can't get that from TV. It's amazing to read old newspapers from say 100 years ago, they're like scholarly dissertations. Our Greatgrandparents put a lot of store on words and dissected Pollie's speeches so carefully. Now we learn their stance on things from sound grabs and doorstop interviews. Make up our mind on that basis too. It's scarey.

For all our modern "let it all hang out" attitude, there's a conservatism now that we didn't have in the 70's. Here at least. the TV is having a contest to pick the best 20 Aust. TV shows ever. They showed clips from the ABC(Public Broadcaster) show This Day Tonight and I'd forgotten the hilarious sendups of all the Pollie's. There's not the same amount today.

Quicksilver:

I know your not that's why I was a little surprised at the site.

Not the ordinary news source. -- Judge for yourself.

http://www.theonion.com/content/index

I've even seen people believe the Scrappleface parodies until their error is is pointed out. The spoofs at The Onion can surely be funny, though, just as at Scrappleface.

The Onion has a way of making you wonder if any news is newsworthy. or at best somewhat truthful.

My ole dad used to say --"Don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see."

Jan we still have our political satire here. The actors are very clever and look just like the people they portray. There are satirical sketches about both sides of the house and I roll round laughing. Love political satire.

carolyn

It takes an extreme item for me to forward an email, but recently I did so because it was an utterly ridiculous parody of a body transplant or something like that. I sent it to 2 women who consistently send me forwards. My comment to them was: I wonder if this surgery would work for me?

I regretted sending it when one responsed back with all sincerity ... "Alice, I think this may not be true...."

Gee, I never tell her those cockamamie WARNINGS she sends me are not true.

I really must say that I have never seen so much radical diatribe ("rot") in one place previously on that web site. If it continues I will not be returning again either.

Thanks for the Onion link, Pat. It's perfect for a bad hair day.

I stopped over at the World Net Daily and learned that plane made it down safely. I was wondering what happened to it as the story stopped before it landed. The other thing is, I like Ann Coulter and it looks like she's part of that paper. Now I didn't say I agree with her, but I really like her strength and the command of the language.

We had CNN on here for a couple of hours while the plane was in the air and after it landed. It was great watching the picture of the landing. It was better than anyone expected and all the passengers were able to leave the plane safely using regular stairs.

We were watching that plane on CNN and they kept stopping for commercial breaks. We switched to MSNBC and they stayed with it without any breaks at all. What a fabulous landing. Like some of the passengers said it was the smoothest landing they have ever had on a plane.

Jeriron1, welcome. Glad to see you here posting.

And I'm happy to hear that the plane landed safely. I had left the TV before it landed, and now that you mention it, my morning paper had nothing about it.

Yesterday I was with a friend who had recently returned from a bus tour in Europe. Jan, she said she and her husband enjoyed the group of Australians who were on the trip, and spent most of their "talking" time with them. They weren't too thrilled with the actions of some of the Americans on board.

We got to talking about NEWS and she said how difficult it was for her, speaking only English, to find a newspaper she could read. Occassionally USA Today, very expensive. She also talked about CNN-Europe, same company, but different broadcasters and different news. She said the broadcasters there made Katrina sound like the whole South was involved. (I'm only the messenger here; that was her opinion.) From an information standpoint, I think life will eventually get more difficult for those who are not bi- (or more) lingual. Glad one of my grandchildren is in a language immersion program.

We are leaving for Rome on Oct.4th, and are speading 7 days there before we take a 12 day cruise to parts of Italy and Barcelona, Croatia and Cannes. I know on the ship they have CNN (Europe) but I don't know about the times we are in a Hotel in Rome. One thing I hate when we are away from home is that I always feel like I have missed something because we end up reading just USA Today and watching the news in the evening. I'm used to having the TV on during the day just for news while I am doing what ever it is I am doing.

JERIRON1, not to worry.

As one who has traveled to Europe regularly for many years to visit family and friends, I can assure you that the hotels in all major, and some minor, cities have CNN on their TV menu. They are well aware of CNN's importance, not only for the benefit of American tourists but also for American and other English-speaking businessmen from other parts of the world who live in Europe.

PEDLN, the broadcasters are differet because they are based there, and the news is "different" because it reflects also what is happening in Europe - a shift in perspective.

When I took my son and his wife to Europe in 1994, our first stop was a spa outside Zurich, Switzerland. That's where we saw (on a bright sunny afternoon) the chase after OJ in his white Bronco. In all other countries we visited thereafter, son and DIL eagerly searched for CNN first thing, while I was in my glory listening to the "real McCoy".

jeriron - funny, that's one of the things we really like about travelling - especially abroad - is that we DON'T get all the news - especially the really non-news that we get bombarded with all the time. We were on a 3.5 month expedition, going from home to California to Alaska to Vancouver Island, across the northern tier of states, back to home from July-October 1998. We actually missed all of the constant Monica Lewinski thing - and it was wonderful!

Traude:

Thanks for the information..

MaryZ

I've been reading that some people complained because the new huge screen TV that is out on the pool deck ( Carnival Liberty)is tuned into the news. Lots of people feel the same as you do.

Your trip sounds great.

It was a great trip. It wasn't just the news, though - we loved having no TV at all. Don't get me wrong - we watch a fair amount of TV - news, sports, dramas, sitcoms, etc. It was just nice to get away from it for a while.

In that vein, both of us resent the fact that it seems impossible to go ANYWHERE without having a TV set on: the gym, restaurants, doctor's offices, the post office, etc.

Mary Z, there is a gadget that one can use to solve that situation you mentioned in the post above. About a year ago I read an newspaper article about TV-Be-Gone, thought "there's the answer to my prayers," and ordered it. You aim this gadget (surreptiously) at the TV and wait until it meets a signal that turns it off. My grand-nephews in Houston thought it great fun. My daughters were horrified --"Mom, you don't really use this!." I don't much, any more. Most places will oblige if you ask politely. But anyone with hearing aides will tell you that background noise is a real menace. I did use it this summer in a dreadful restaurant with a horrible menu in a Holiday Inn which definitely was not worth it. It really became more of game and I wanted to see how many I could knock out. I thought it was funny, they'd turn them on, and I'd turn them off. So, now you know the worst.

Jeriron, your upcoming trip sounds wonderful. Are you doing any special reading for it before hand?

pedln, you're WONDERFUL!!! John saw that gadget written about and said he'd love to have one. I didn't think they really existed, and here you are with living proof. I'm so proud to know someone who got one and has actually used it. Where did you get it? I may have to get him one for his birthday.

Pedlin:

Yes lots of reading. I am also on the Cruise Critic board every day and people post what the whole trip was like and how the tours went etc, etc. We are really excited about going. It is for our 50th anniversary.

I agree about there being a TV screen wherever you go. I notice there is one in the doctors surgery and of course in the dentists!

My son has his spa pool positioned so that sliding doors can be opened and he can see the big screen in his home theatre! He often sits in his spa at night and watches the news.

Carolyn

Big screen tv in Doctors offices are there to keep you busy while you wait an hour past your appointment time..

At my primary physicians, if I have a 2 pm appointment, I'm seeing him no later than maybe 15 minutes. He doesn't overbook. This past weekend was a bad one for me, but by Monday it was less so. I still thought the need to see my heart doctor and called. Got an appt. for Tuesday morning and waited for him 10 minutes. Since they were working me in I would have been glad to wait longer... maybe they were worried I might have a heart attack. haha... There are no televisions in any doctor's office I've been in, but, I did see one at the imaging place recently. I would love to have had one of those gadgets to have zapped it. I notice it is $25. including postage.

Oh, me... trying to decide if I should just delete this, since I hate for a bunch of aches and pains to be posted... well, I will risk it.

Mary Z, here is the link for that zapper gadget.

here

The site at the link would not let me click "back" to return here. A few seem to be that way, but most aren't.

During the first days of Katrina, I spent much of my TV time at CNN, FOX, MSNBC, and Headline News. Of course there was a lot of news, but also commercials and a lot of repitition. Tonight, for the first time in a long time, I watched the full hour of the Lehrer News Hour and thought, now I know why I like this PBS program so much. No commercials, of course, but the reporters are quite in the background, preferring the focus to be on the person being interviewed -- to let the public hear the voices of the people who know. I won't say they never ask leading questions, but certainly not to the extent that I heard CNN's Miles O'Brien yesterday or today (and usually I like him) question the president of the New Orleans City Council. O'Brien was practically badgering the city council man to say what he wanted to hear.

Alice, are you using Internet Explorer? With some sites you can't just clikc on "back." Click on the little down arrow next to back and you will see SeniorNet listed in a list of previously visited sites. Jane can probably explain that better than I. She's the one who put me on the right track.

used that term since clicking on the IE arrow means same thing. LOL It is nothing Jane needs to explain, thanks.

Thanks, pedln - I've ordered one for him. He'll love it - even if he never uses it.

AliceB - when I click on a link, I right-click it, then left-click on "open in new window". Then I never have to back up to the SN page. Somebody here on SN taught me that trick.

Pedln I like Jim Lehrer too. We see him on our Community TV channel I also like the man with white hair and glasses who does the panel discussions. He asks good questions! We have commercials on our community channel but minimal compared to commercial TV which is about five minutes every ten minute segment. Drives me insane!

Carolyn

Thanks, but, it's nothing. Really. I must have needed ot post something... lol

Mary Z, that is a fantastic trick and I don't know how I could live so long without knowing about it. That is surely a bit of knowledge to pass on to others.

be a problem for me because usually when I click on links they already open in a new window. I suppose that is why I commented earlier and hesitate to do so now.

Maybe I can learn which websites do one way and which ones do another, or maybe not. Either way, I shall think about it tomorrow because news in my area is including WARNINGs that if FLOODING occurs due to the rains expected soon, please everyone have a PLAN! Yikes! Next thing will be a diagram showing how to get out of town via which road and whether to go east, west or north. I'm sure all these warnings are comforting to the evacuees in Camp Gruber which is much closer to a river than I.

Just my take on newspapers..... Do not like to take the time to "really" read them as they contain so many articles in which I have no interest and it takes an inordinate amount of time to read everything. In the past I have only subscribed to the Sunday paper to get the TV guide, and read some news, however to make it an everyday affair is just too much.

I do not care for the syndicated "opinion sources" which are SO radical in their views sometimes either. What ever happened to the "middle of the road" and focusing on what is best for the entire nation irrespective of politics??

This is also a terrible waste of natural resources when I look at the amount of paper used, unless people recycle (we do).

The Internet, on the other hand has up-to-date news, and also is more "revealing" since it (apparently) does not have any rigid "restrictions" on what it can and cannot state OR conflicts of interest. However, that is not to imply that everything we find on the Net is "reliable". Each person must determine that for him/herself as there are "blogs" out there as well as legitimate news sources.

I watch almost no news on TV and never the political "talk programs" either. Each person has his/her opinion and I really am not hung up on what other people think about "sensitive political issues".

And I can't keep from recalling the times encounted where some people seem to believe whatever is in print (typed-type print). I once wrote a paper on the subject. Present identical news in crayon, ink or type. The latter is chosen as more trustworthy.

Those emails people believe regarding some sad story about a child or some strange happenstance of this or that. I've stopped telling friends about snopes or other sites where the stories can be verified because it isn't worth the trouble. So many people do not care whether the story is true, so long as it is warm and fuzzy or exciting in a good way.

"I watch almost no news on TV and never the political "talk programs" either. Each person has his/her opinion and I really am not hung up on what other people think about "sensitive political issues"."

Me, neither. I think those political talk shows border on farce and the news has to be aimed at a 12 year old level. To put together news so more people will watch and improve ratings is not for me.

I agree with your perspective 100% - - time is something which I find to be very precious and I will not waste it if I can avoid it.

(I've learned smilies don't work in the title bar... ha)

pedln, I've learned wonderful things just hanging out at SeniorNet!

What we prefer about newspapers/magazines/internet news over TV/radio is that if we're not interested in a particular story, or have read enough about a certain subject, we can just turn the page and move on. You can't do that on TV and radio.

as a captive audience when I turned on the radio and stepped into the shower..... the whole time had to hear continuing coverage of Rita news since regular programming was preempted. The last thing of interest of me is continued coverage of hurricane news when expecting to hear something else. Right now the reporting is mainly maybe, might be, coulds or other guesses. Coastal areas need to keep close track, but a northern Oklahoma Tulsa station does not unless their weather dept put on pressure for some exposure.

I've also learned all kinds of info on SeniorNet and appreciate. Were it not for encouragement and information posted to me a few weeks ago, I would not be working this very minute on the computer I built with the help of several on SenNet and other internet sites. Hooray for SeniorNet! And hooray for the internet...

I read a daily paper every single day till I was about 70 then I quit the paper and my magazine subscriptions as I wanted to use the money to pay for a Dish TV. I am glad I did that too. I had stopped really reading every story in the papers and was not interested when I did read a lot of it. I love watching CNN when something is going on ..they have saturation coverage and I can look at it a few minutes get the picture, and go on about my business. I also have some very nice information that I like to compare to our American stations. One is World News and it comes directly from several different countries as an English broadcast. I get the only English broadcast China station too. I love the science shows and the travel shows on there. But their news is slanted just as ours is I am sure. They have one program that seems very straight forward called China Biz and it is like watching our own Stock-market channels except it is about China and their business.

Having lived through the WW11 and all its propaganda in radio broadcasts, newsreels, and later TV news-broadcasts, and movies. I think we all learned to be a bit pessimistic about "news" and of course the pulp magazines and papers have always feed people those "village idiot" stories. faith

We haven't yet had World War Eleven.

JUST KIDDING! (well, not kidding, but, you know what I mean...

)

I may do same about news. What you describe sounds right on!

"TO 'READ' OR NOT TO 'READ' - THAT IS THE QUESTION"

But, maybe you have, or wish you had what I have. What is it? A group of us who meet every Monday morning for a couple of hours to discuss the week's news. Fascinating to get such a variety of interpretations derived from the same media.

So for another - almost - quote "NEWS IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER"

I meet with a group of five on Tuesday mornings and if anyone mentions political type news, which has a large umbrella, they are in deep you know what. There is not one person there who's opinion I value, in that realm. I think each one simply believes whatever her husband believes.

Ho Ho Ho WW2 is that better? I guess you do it with capital i's like this II rather than ones like this 11. faith

FaithR... lol... either 2 or III and you are off the hook... Scares me to think it will ever be 11.

Mary Z, I want to backtrack on my reaction to the great tip on opening links in a new window. I didn't think I would ever be able to put it into my memory bank so as to use, but I HAVE. Whoopee! Thank you.

Good for you, AliceB. You make me happy.

Faith, welcome. I'm glad you have joined us. Your Dish TV sounds like it offers some good programs. I'd like to see that World News from different countries. It would be interesting to compare their views with those on U.S. channels.

Roffay, I envy you your weekly news discussion. Is this a group of friends or is it more structered, sponsored by a school or some such. Our public library offers a weekly Great Decisions program each spring, but I think something more informal on a regular basis would be more to my liking.

I agree, pedln - I think that would be a great idea. John and I go to lunch every Thursday with an odd collection of folks - primarily artists, newspaper people (current and retired), and retired politicians. We laugh a lot and tell a lot of lies, and even discuss the news of the week.

PEDIN - This one - Current Affairs - is run by an organisation called WEA - Workers Education Association - been in existence for many years. Not too expensive to join I suppose considering they provide a venue and a tutor. For five years until the end of this summer's term my particular group used to meet in my home.

They offer a choice of subjects, even foreign languages. Each as I mentioned has a tutor of course. Although my group tends to be a free-for-all with the tutor trying to keep up!!!

Whee ! Yowee! Talk about timeliness. Here are two articles from the NYT about an upcoming George Clooney directed film about Edward R. Murrow. (A good opportunity to practice Mary Z's trick.)
News in Black, White and Shades of Gray

A Ringside Seat for Murrow Versus McCarthy

Clooney plays Fred Friendly, McCarthy plays himself, and I don't remember who plays Murrow. Here's a quote from the second article which focuses on the Murrow/McCarthy aspects. (the first is more of a review.)

' "Good Night" is about journalism, not as a subject of parody, but of inquiry. With various reporters and news anchors splashing into fetid waters to save victims of Hurricane Katrina, "Good Night" serves as a reminder that it may take a different kind of journalistic courage, a willingness to risk career and more, to bring government to account. At a time when the news media are being denied access to everything from pictures of imprisoned foreign nationals to critical government security documents, Mr. Clooney, without pressing the analogy, has made a movie that reminds that government needs a vigorous, even oppositional press to find its best nature.'

I don't know if this is already out, or is coming out. If any of you see it, be sure to tell us about it.

the other night promoting that film. I hope it is good.

I'd have to say, that growing up I thought McCarthy was some sort of hero. I grew up in Wisconsin and really got slanted news about what he was doing and why. Imagine my shock and awe when I found out what he was really about and how many lives he destroyed. Although, it is the reason I read both sides of important news and issues.

I just looked on IMDb and an actor named David Strathairn plays Murrow. He looks vaguely familiar, but I'm not sure about the face. That's definitely a movie I'll watch for.

Just wanted to alert you that the link "We need a little bit of Christmas" is not functional.

Just took a quick look, and it is a very nice web site!!

Annie3.....your not alone about McCArthy......My mother was glued to those hearings and thought he was just wonderful! Sooooooo.. it pays to read deeply and widely and keep and open mind.........

I just stumbled in here while checking out the Hemingway site. I just want to tell Annie3 that we had a different view of Joe McCarthy "the junior senator from Wisconsin". Where I lived, in a suburb of NYC, and worked (at a newspaper in NYC). he was known as "tail gunner Joe" because he took cheap shots at everyone. We were very glad when he got his come uppance. "have you no shame" at the Army-McCarthy hearings. I hope I'll be home in time to watch the TV show.

And Nancy - I also was glued to those hearings, but for different reasons. I remember staying in my car after I reached home to hear them over the car radio. Mort

who seem to make cheap shots a large part of their service could have their comeuppance. In so many instances it seems as if we have become a nation of cheap-shotness and it is sickening.

"Good Night and Good Luck" is a movie, right? I thought that's what I understood. It just hasn't come out yet.

I thought he was dead.

Good Night and Good Luck is a film I look forward to watching. May be a while before it comes on TV I suppose - don't go to the cinema any more.

Ed Murrow was well known over here of course and I do recall seeing a bio of him on TV say about a year ago.

As for McCarthy - hard to accept or understand why that despicable witch hunt could take place in the 20th century. Was everyone really so scared of communism and so lacking in self confidence.

You say "Was everyone..."

No. Not everyone.

Welcome, Mort. I don't wish people to stumble, but I'm glad you did and came our way.

Annie, I can ditto some of your remarks. I grew up in Racine, WI, living with my mother and aunt and uncle. My uncle thought Joe McCarthy walked on water, and as a high school kid I just absorbed all that dinner table talk. The summer after my freshman year in college I visited relatives in DC and went to the hearings, taking along my little 45 RPM recording of Stan Freeberg's "Point of Order," which the junior Senator obligingly autographed. Wonder whatever happened to it -- guess it wasn't a prized possession after I learned a little bit more.

When I read about the McCarthy hearings and saw a documentary on the era, I was astounded. It was like the Salem witchhunt. It could never happen here as being a Communist is not anything for us to be scared of. However not many people are Communists! They still publish a newspaper but nobody has ever got elected and their followers are miniscule. I did not even notice a candidate on our latest voting papers and they certainly did not register on the graphs on election night.

on now and be astonished at some events. When I read and saw documentaries about those hearings, it was hard to believe someone could wield such power, but it happened. At the time I was vaguely aware, but had no concept of the significance.

Who says that there will be any future after the year 2011?

I go with the philosophy:
"If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.. "

It worked well back in the 60's, so anyone got a better idea?

Quicksilver...I checked and it seems ivillage deleted everyone's web site without notice.
gonefishin...what happens in 2011

I can't practice either philosophy since no one is ever with me. lol

Ditto Alice B. There is a world wide shortage of males. ( Not surprising with all the warfare that has gone on in the last 100yrs and the rate they kill themselves in auto accidents etc) The males our age all go for women much younger than themselves in the main. I don't think I want to take one on in any case. I like pleasing myself too much these days. I am as they say rapidly becoming set in my ways! I like my own space and my own pace of life.

Can't deal with getting used to someone who would most likely be thinking they can gently or otherwise make me over. haha

ALICE B - KIWI LADY - Beat me to it. You've said it all for me. Mind you now I feel I want it both ways. My own space and someone to share it with me. IMPOSSIBLE.

I have been very impressed with the good coverage of the hurricane disasters in the south. Especially the coverage on CNN. The only thing that made me mad was when it seemed the reporters were stating their own opinions regarding the federal governments response or lack of. I say give FEMA a chance. Give Bush a chance. He is just a human being and has many problems besides weather to face every morning. Now all the anti Bush people in my family are gleefully sending around pictures of Bush fishing in the flood and it made me mad even though I am not a political support of Mr. Bush. News Broadcasters feed into those feelings re: anti war protests. If they news had not been busy with the hurricanes you can bet they would have been inciting riots in the peace movement that has been in Washington this week. faith

Faith: I agree. What happened to the days when reporters gave us only the facts in their stories. When I took news writing in college, that was what we were instructed to do. We would have probably flunked the course if we had tried to insert our biased opinions. Opinions are for editorials, not news stories.

And speaking of editorials, here is Cindy Sheehan's on the anti-Bush/anti-war demonstrations last weekend, published today: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/092505Y.shtml

it is so pleasant to read fair-minded posts by those who do not necessarily support the Bush Administration.

For me, it has reached the point where I vote for someone I think maybe.. possibly.. might be the outside chance of being better than the other and those in the media who try to squash our leader in each and every way some of them can dream up, I hope they are someday prevented from a good night's sleep. I know that is unlikely. lol

HB, welcome back.

I think Sheehan has tasted the headiness of headlines and microphones. It has given her a new world in which to live and I think her late son must be very ashamed of her. She gives me the shivers. Fat-cat left-wing monied moguls got a hold of her, molded and twisted her to exactly what they wanted. She was extremely malleable.

They had a great "peaceful protest" down in DC. Cindy should be proud.

And I believe that her son is proud that his Mother cared enough to do something against the government that got him killed.

different opinion of President Bush prior to her son's death. She was supportive as long as her family was all right. When she ballyhooed to the press about our military occupying New Orleans... it was the most hare-brained thing she has come up with, whether she is the one who thought of it, who knows? I think she is a blot and of course, our media loves every part of it.

Yes, some folks admire her. People are free to think whatever they wish, thank goodness.

My power went out while I was in the middle of a post here. Finally back now, but it makes one consider adding an UPS to the computer hookup.

Early this morning I watched ABC "Good Morning" and was pleasantly surprised by the small amount of commercials. It seemed we went at least 15 or 20 minutes without one. I know they are a necessary evil, but what a delightful change from what one usually experiences with the cable news channels. And that brings up another "gripe?" "nuisance?" I believe it's called "billboarding" -- where they say "we'll be right back with a story about such and such." And you think that you'll wait and suffer through the commercial. The problem is that when "they" return, the news is about something else, and you don't get the billboarded item until several more commercials have passed.

Yes, ABC had a big blurb about the protest on the mall, as did the cable channels. So what about what they didn't show and tell. The fifth annual National Book Festival was also held on the mall yesterday. 80 authors, including David McCullough and Sue Monk Kidd. I understand C-Span covered the speakers, but did any of you see anything about this event on the news? I didn't.

Here is a quote from the Book Nook by Joan Pearson. "SeniorNet Books is one of the Reading Promotion partners of the Library of Congress' Center for the Book. The Library of Congress puts on the book festival each year. The first year we were partners, a good number of Bookies gathered in the Promotion Partners tent and spread the word on SeniorNet. We did the same the second year. THEN, the LOC had a money crunch and was unable to afford the tent for the Promotion Partners...so we were not invited for the last two years. Recently we were told that the LOC wants to include the Partners in some way...so they are going to set up ONE table for the brochures from the Partners."

And Joan, who has worked so hard representing SeniorNet, was there. She'll have more to say at the Book Nook Forum. This festival was a big deal too. So why didn't the cameras swing that way while they were down there.

CSpan and CSpan2 covered both events. CSpan covered the protest, and CSpan2 had full live coverage of the Book Festival. Anytime I saw down yesterday, I watched the Festival - caught some of Andrea Mitchell and Thomas Friedman. It's always a great event!

IMO, the cameras didn't turn that way because most major outlets would not have put it on the air anyway because their interest in seniors and books is severely limited.

Most media people think anyone over 60 is blind deaf and intellectually impaired. Books are not the in thing in a lot of places either. Here people still read a lot and it is said we have more bookshops per head of population than anywhere else in the world. We get lots of book reviews on the radio etc. They say the reason we read so much is that it rains a lot here.

Carolyn

so I think people read a lot here, too. Since I've always spent much time at a library, their books are wonderfully free and I like free. lol ... my book buying bro sends me boxes full and right now I have enough to last years.

So far as Kiwi's reading a lot due to rain, Carolyn, is there also a high birthrate in NZ? heheh

The National Book Festival is for all ages, not just seniors. My grandchildren go there each year with their parents. There are speakers and events to appeal to a variety of tastes and ages. Mary Z, I'm glad you got see part of it.

I could have omitted seniors and said all else and it would have been same. Of course had one of the authors been into scandalous behavior or written a book qualifying for the adult porn section, cameras would have been there.

Alice - No unfortunately! We are very low birth rate and can't seem to replace ourselves as yet! Its a bit of a worry! We must spend too much time reading LOL!

By AUDRA ANG, Associated Press Writer Sun Sep 25, 5:36 PM ET

BEIJING - China said Sunday it is imposing new regulations to control content on its news Web sites and will allow the posting of only "healthy and civilized" news.

See: http://tinyurl.com/cj9ew

Probably won't be news to any but one of our former presidents who apparently considered China to be a fine upstanding free country to be trusted with any information they might wish to have.

And the present president is going to increase our national debt owed to china, to cover the disasters down on the gulf.

One of these days, china will own us. And won't that be fun?

A real party!

Too bad it didn't bother many back when we were sold out before. Might have put a stop to it, but noooooooooo...

Pedin, I do so enjoy reading "Best of the Blogs" link posted at top of this page. One little blurb from it this morning is referring to people often to be seen on CSPAN. I love the 'undermedicated description' lol

"...Who are these undermedicated people? Do they really represent the views of most sensible Americans? How did they get there?

One of the answers to this puzzle is that people who care passionately about a single issue have discovered that being well-organized, disciplined and well-financed trumps majority opinion most of the time...."

Then he used the "Christian Right" as perfect example.

How far back do you want to go.....

Didn't George H W Bush puke in the pocket of a chinaman? lololol

Then face would never have been saved.....

Electronic News vs. Print News
Well, each have their own good/bad qualities. The electronic news delivers a greater impact on us than newspapers, etc.
For instance, the TV pictures of the disabled Jet Blue airliner as it attempted to make a safe landing with it's nose landing gear stuck at a right angle brought home to us the drama of the story much more than print news could ever hope to accomplish. The same could be said for both the destruction and flooding caused by hurricanes Katrina and Rita.-- Hmm. Hell has no fury like a woman scorned.
Could we even begin to imagine all this destruction and the misery it caused our more unfortunate fellow citizens by reading about it.?
The print news would fall way short of the dramatic TV pictures delivered to us by the major TV news networks as it pertained to these hurricane. And this news is given to us as it is happening. It would take a day or more for newspapers to catch up with what we are watching while it happens.
However, at times, the electronic news seem to get stuck on less important events while waiting for a bigger story. Here I refer to the Nattily Holloway reporting by TV. While the disappearance of this teen-ager was most unfortunate, do you think it deserved the long standing TV coverage it received? I'm sure the family of this young lady would disagree with me, but in the overall scheme of the world-wide news it wasn't that important! For example, there are many teen-agers who go missing that are never heard about. And the Holloway reporting by the electronic news would still be going on if the sisters Katrina and Rita hadn't knocked it off the air.
How about the reporting of the intended bride who took off for Texas the day before her wedding. Well so what. Who really cared?
And The TV coverage of that poor woman--I forget her name-- that laid in a coma while a decision was being made to discontinue her life support system, at times, seemed to be obscene. They kept showing the scene of this unfortunate woman following the overhead balloons over and over again until it too become obscene.
Is the electronic news so starved for news that it gets stuck on a story and reports these lesser happenings for days and weeks at a time? I don't mean to imply that the circumstances of this unconscious lady was a lesser occurrence to her family, etc.
We have a local TV talk show host, Lynn Cullen, who this morning said is there no good news happening. I thought about that and I tend to agree with her.

Bill H

TV showing the airplane circling and landing could possibly be done with a newspaper report and same re the hurricanes. Even someone barely knowing how to push the power button on their pc would know that. I suppose it IS something from which someone might form a story and then come on the air and say "Let me explain this to you...." Arrrggghhhh

More about Electronic News.
Here I refer to C-Span. What a wonderful tool this TV channel is.
One example of the value of C-Span was the viewing of the questioning of Judge John Roberts who has been nominated for Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.
I realized it was a forgone conclusion that Judge Roberts, a federal civil courts judge, will be confirmed to this high position.
I don't write this trying to make a political issue of it. No, I say this because I watched/listened to the questions being asked of John Roberts, by the Senators of the Senate Judiciary Committee, with great interest. I would have tired reading of these long proceedings if they were only carried in the newspapers.
I suppose most of us watch electronic news because it is another presence in our home.
Also, I kinda think that at times we become hypnotized as we watch the tube report these events. Did you find it hard to leave the TV as the story of hurricane Katrina unfolded?

Bill H

I think most people who chose to watch the questions/answers re the John Roberts hearing, did so out of great interest in both the questions and the answers. Of course, TV made it all more interesting than reading it from a newspaper.

Oh dear - I wish there was an English (country that is) version of this room. The postings are so interesting but too much of the time I haven't a clue what you are talking about.

In other words I hate not being able to join in the "conversation".

I hang a lot of mirrors around the home (for more presences

)

And it works.

I don't understand (no pun intended) what you are saying?

Roffay, please join in as it in not the purpose of this discussion to be limited to one country. Perhaps you can answer a question for us. Last week in one of the papers that carried editorials from several countries, there was reference to the British "Holocaust Day." The editorial stated that aides to Tony Blair were advising him to abolish this commenorative day because it upset the Muslims. That was the only time I saw anything about that. Is this or was it an issue? At one point, the editorial stated that the British see the Holocaust as a defining element of European history.

I think this is another example of how difficult it is to know what's going on in other parts of the world without access to foreign media.

And Howzat, a big welcome to you. Sorry I missed you earlier.

ever have conversation with one o those mirrors?

Hmm... who is fairest of them all? (whom?)

Roffay... Heck, post something going on over there and I can have a go at it whether I know what you are talking about or not. LOL... I seem to find myself housebound these past few days and so far it's not likely to end. I'm interested in learning more about my relatives, wherever they may be in GB.

A big surprise for me when riding in a coach after debarking the channel ferry at Dover was seeing a sign with my name on it. I presumed it to be a village, but it isn't on a map so perhaps it was a road.

How is the news in England perceived by you, Roffay...

Actually, this discussion is suppose to be about the "news" and not politics...

The quality of news, and how that affects our lives.

Whether it be here in the States, ( where I live ), or Europe, Asia, Africa, etc. etc. (world wide), all should feel comfortable discussing it.

This discussion got political, (my mistake) really has nothing to do with politics. For that, I apologise.

I watch about 15 minutes of local news daily, and turn on MSNBC at 6 pm, to catch up with, .... you know (politics)..

The catastrophy in on our Gulf Coast (They figure that to be the size of England), has over taken all the news channels, so we don't know what is happening around the world, unless we go to the internet for sources.

I get CNN, MSNBC and BBC news delivered to my email daily... So I at least have the flavor of the news of the day.

Here is the US news about the war is infrequent and getting less frequent, daily.

Someone doesn't want us to bother our little minds about all that negative stuff, so they white wash it. It is only when there is a monumental catastrophy that happens in our own back yard, that "those who control us", can't hide, do they let us in on it.

Then, they make sure we see it over and over and over again.

Oh yes, if a pretty white gal gets abducted, we get to watch that over and over and over again ad nausium...

Get the picture?

a news program on tv would think you should repeat all that since someone may have missed the 10,000 other times it was said,

Happy Bill, I'm glad you brought up the question of electronic/paper news and the impact of each. I find that I agree with much of what you said. The electronic news gives us pictures that we would probably never be able to visualize with only print media. However, print media is able to go into a lot more depth and provide more background information. I really think both are needed.

For instance, the other day the NYT had a story about three very wealthy children whose lives paralleled those of the children in the juvenile Lemony Snicket books (orphans beseiged by cruel relatives wanting only to get their hands on their wealth.) Electronic news, if it picked it up at all, would provide the sensational highlights, but would not have the background.

Another problem that I'm finding with the electronic news is that it tends to show some of the same pictures over and over again, resulting in confusion, especially as they concern the hurricanes. I find myself asking, is this from Rita, Katrina, Texas, Louisiana? It seems like we're being exposed to many "sight" bites as well as "sound" bites.

Are Happy Bill and Bill H the same person?

Showing the same pictures over and over and over again is form of brain washing, IMHO...

ALICE B: You asked a good question "Are Happy Bill and Bill H the same person?" I have always thought they were two different people and just did a search and the only Bill who has posted here is Bill H but everyone responded to Happy Bill. Hmmm. I hope PEDLN knows.

P.S. I made a mistake in my Search and, when I fixed it, found that both HAPPY BILL and BILL H have posted here. I guess they are 2 different people.

Happy Bill posted in # 673. and he is different from Bill H.

Happy Bill, I met at an Indiana Luncheon. Then he moved to CA after his wife died -- to be near his son.

BillH is a discussion leader for Books and lives in PA.

until Pedin posted what she did. Then I didn't know. I knew both names had posted in this folder.

Oh dear.

My apologies to both Bill H and Happy Bill. I am delighted that you are both here and contributing so much to this discussion. If I've managed to confused everyone I'm sorry. Probably isn't the first time and most likely won't be the last.

you may be in deep trouble. NOT! LOL

Loved the news program from 8 to 10 on PBS tonight. It was historical, not current events. Great commentators and an interesting subject. I usually don't watch so much TV in one night but it was quite good and held my interest.

Howzat, re the Flying Red Horse.....way back when Magnolia changed to Mobil, I did not think the name change could ever stick. One of my early life lessons. LOL

Gratifying to get so many responses to my grievance posting - THANKS

PEDIN - You did the right thing! I received a very nice welcome greeting from you way back.

Re your Holocaust query. Last week a Muslim think-tank, set up by Downing Street to tackle the spread of extremism, called on the Govt to banish Holocaust Memorial Day. Apparently, remembering the 6m Jews who were exterminated in Hitler's camps is offensive to Muslims. They suggest that a non-specific like Genocide Memorial Day be used instead.

I'm just too speechless over this latest bit of political correctness idiocy to comment - but I'd be interested to hear reactions from everyone here.

China Wants Only 'Healthy' News on Web

BEIJING (AP) - China said Sunday it is imposing new regulations to control content on its news Web sites and will allow the posting of only "healthy and civilized" news.

The move is part of China's ongoing efforts to police the country's 100-million Internet population. Only the United States, with 135 million users, has more.

The new rules take effect immediately and will "standardize the management of news and information" in the country, the official Xinhua News Agency said Sunday.

more here

What do you think about this? Should it always be a "good news" day?

Depends what China means by healthy news. I know they have been going on about Porn on the net. I don't know what else they are worried about because their population is free to travel now and we have thousands of Mainland Chinese visiting here every year. What they want to protect their citizens from I do not know!

My impression is they do not want their population to read or hear negative news about China.

That sounds like what is happening in the US news.

Where? Quick! Nearly all I see or hear is negative news about the USA.

true...

To be more clear IMHO:

Our news is still being manipulated by the government to "cover up" news that they don't want us to hear about.

They "conspire" with certain news outlets of their persuasion:
ie CNN (left leaning "Clinton News Network")
FOX (Conservative "right wingers")

This is not just today that it is happening, although I believe that it is happening a great deal more today..
This has been going on for the last 60 years.

besides, I do not think most of us need to know everything. If someone has a need to know everything, then run for office.

GONE FISHING - I believe I mentioned a current affairs discussion group I attend every Monday morning. Unfortunately it was only at the end of the session that one of our members mentioned this "restriction" on the Chinese peoples use of the Web. Sorry I can't really contribute more but he expressed his concern and conviction that the Chinese people are still being oppressed and manipulated.

Up until Monday morning and your postings here I knew nothing about this.

I fear the Chinese are not the only ones to be manipulated. During our last election campaign I watched the media switching sides from week to week as the polls went this way and that.

They were positive for the party that topped each weeks polls and negative for the loser. I thought that they were trying to curry favor with Politicians and hedging their bets.

For someone who was entirely new to voting and the political processes some of the media would have confused them terribly.

However its a sad fact that some people vote according to who wins the polls. I heard people say that when interviewed on the street. I think the Polls have become an important manipulation tool of the media also.

Carolyn

"besides, I do not think most of us need to know everything."

Alice, I think that it is more then likely that "most of us" don't want to know what is going on...

Things get going bad, and the "ostrich effect" kicks in..
The people running governments depend on people not objecting to being kept ignorant of what is really going on. That way they can do what they want.

Oh dear - these latest postings - what an outpouring of cynicism, scepticism and general mistrust of government and the media.

Never has there been such an abundance of news from so many sources and some reported even as it happens. However...........

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? We have no right to expect the impossible.

But that's why I think this forum works so well. Debate give us at least some chance to sift reality from fable; an aid to forming a sensible opinion.

Roffay, I too am speechless. I don't ever expect modern-day Muslims to "like" Jews, but to ask for cancellation of a memorial to the Holocaust is outrageous. If those immigrants really want such a thing, they can return to the country of their origin, where I'm sure celebrations would be more to their liking.

the Islamic people have objected to a memorial in their adopted country that is to honor those murdered in the Holocaust. What will be truly frightening is if the UK does not go through with the memorial. What will they object to next? I've no idea, but they will have no trouble at all knowing what.

Roffay, Howzat and Alice. I too am amazed that Muslim groups want to do away with Holocaust Memorial Day. Here it is an ecumenical observance. Last year it was held in a local Protestant church and a friend who is an Irish Catholic was honored. He was part of the Army division which liberated a Concentration Camp. I was with the contingent of Jewish War Veterans.

I am one of the lucky ones whose father came over from Europe before World War I. But many of my relatives who stayed behind were killed by the Nazis.

My wife was a "Hidden Child" in Poland. She was 4 and hid under the bed when the Nazis came and took her mother to be killed. She spent the next four years in hiding on a farm with 17 other Jews.

What will they want to take away next? Independence Day?

When I read Leon Uris' epic EXODUS at least 45 years ago, his description of the death camps made indelible impressions in my mind. He leads the reader through the horror most of us would never face. It is fiction, but the historical parts carefully researched and I'm thankful it was written because my knowledge of the Holocaust was slim. Subsequently, I've read more.

And, yes, I think the muslims would take away our Independence Day in a heartbeat if they thought they could.

...that the news media often represents the people as no one else can. Remember Bob Woodward & Carl Burnstein? Had it not been for them, the shenanigans of President Nixon would never had been exposed. On the whole, I think the news media does the people a great service and is an invaluable asset.

ROFFAY: Basically I agree with you, except for one thing. I DO expect the truth from EVERYONE, and always will. While we won't always get it, we have a right to it and should expect it. We mustn't lower our standards because of a few bad apples.

Many interesting points raised today. Yes, I'm shocked sometimes by the amount of PC (political correctness) demanded by special interest groups. Sometimes it's silly, sometimes displaying hatred. But also there are times when a change was needed. It's not always easy to understand the other person's viewpoint.

Happy Bill (right, this time?), you bring up a good point. We do get a lot of information from the media and they do provide a valuable service.

As for Woodward and Bernstein, they had a little help from Mark Felt. I won't go into the pros and cons of his actions. Also, I don't know anything about his current health or physical situation, but it did kind of bother me that the media made emphasis of his age and portrayed him as frail and a bit gaga.

Over here we have Holocaust week.As a matter of interest today is Jewish New Year. Sorry can't spell the name.

Carolyn

Regarding China, I wonder just how much the authorities can limit Chinese access to the rest of the world on the Internet. Yes, they can monitor and delete Chinese websites, but how can they keep someone from reading the NYT or Washington Post. I really don't know enough of the inner workings of the Internet to know.

Yes ma'am, the Chinese government can and does restrict Internet use. The Internet Service Providers (ISPs) help them do it (like Yahoo and others) by not connecting the person with the URL they've typed in (page not available message), or if the person types in any of hundreds of "forbidden" words (like "democracy"). The person simply comes up with an error message. Done. Phfft. Turn off your computer and go to bed. And the government has software (developed with the help of European and American companies) that roams the Net looking for "outlaw" websites (they stick out since they are in a Chinese language) that are trying to get information to the people, and shut them down. These companies are so greedy for Chinese business that they will do anything necessary to stay in the good graces of the government.

Thank you everyone for those Holocaust comments and moving stories. I now feel confident that common sense will prevail.

HAPPY BILL - The sort of films I tend to enjoy most are those with courtroom dramas. I'm fascinated by the presentation of "the truth" by both sides. Both so believable.

Wouldn't you ageee that the same criteria could apply to news reporting. So its up to us "the jury" to bring in a verdict.

As it is with all "jurys", it comes down to what an individual believes is the truth, not necessarily what the truth really is.

Juror A's reality, may or may not be Juror B's reality.

Those of you who have read the Posner (I think) article above, remember his comments how about how media is a business and businesses give the cusotmers what they want. Do you see that happening in what you watch. Sometimes I feel that the media, especially the electronic media panders to our love of the sensational.

Howzat, thanks for your explanation. That will be something to ponder as I drive 900 miles east today and tomorrow. Will see you online tonight if there is wireless at my motel, otherwise will check in tomorrow. Carry On!

read into events what they wish to read into them. A person can easily read something and have a much different opinion as to what they read than the next person might have or what was actually meant. Happens all the time. Perception perception perception..

And those who easily get their feelings injured are likely to be first in line. For me, if people can dish it out, but they can't take it, it's better for them to steer clear of me because I will speak up for myself when the need arises. They can nurture their little holier-than-thou selves from now on if they wish. Poor ole Dan Rather. He is feeling so put upon and can't seem to figure out why. All he has to do is broaden his view and he might figure it out. Many years ago I didn't want to miss his newscast and the past few years if he was going to be in the picture, he was quickly zapped. Obviously, what I think about him is of little consequence. Fortunately, there is a huge crowd. He and other network moguls are catching it now and it is about time.

PEDLN, yes, some networks seem to bend over backwards to end their early evening newscasts with an optimistic, "happy" segment. I say "some" because I cannot speak for Fox, which I do not watch.

I very much liked and miss Peter Jennings, the last of the Big Three. Dan Rather came to national attention when he reported from Texas after JFK's assassination. I never watched him thereafter. (Do any of you remember David Frost, his well modulated British voice and hand gestures?)

Too bad that Ted Koppel is leaving ABC's Nightline= in my humble opinion one of the fairest, most objective news programs on the air. He is a thoughtful, respectful interviewer, a model of decorum, no hot-head he.

Pandering to the sensational ? Yes, I think so. Surely I don't have to mention sex and violence...

Now what about deliberate spins ?
Of course we had those back in LBJ's time too. And before then we had Nixon's belatedly discovered secret tapes, and why are people still reluctant to accept what the tapes revealed ?

Why would people want to be lulled into thinking that all is well - when so many things clearly are not? Are we really comfortable wearing blinders ? Why would anyone refuse to face facts - is that why we have such voter apathy?

GONE FISHING - You are so right. The reporter or photographer is a one man/woman juror. What we get is their interpretation of the truth as they perceive it.

PEDIN - Media has a living to earn. If they don't sell their product they go bust. So they have to give us what we are prepared to buy. Sensationalism, scandal and, of course, always sex.

Forgive me for stating the obvious. And to misquote Shakespeare, ".......the fault lies not in our (media) but in ourselves........."

Kiwi Lady and Alice 8, The Jewish New Year is indeed Rosh Hoshanah, but it starts with sundown Oct. 3. The most solumn holiday is Yom Kipper which falls as Rosh Hoshanah ends on Oct. 12. Even though I'm 81, I'll try to fast again this year.

As for the Holicost, I'm afraid that when the last of us old timers dies, the Holicast denyers will win. Morty K

Mort Kail -Not while I am alive or my kids are alive. We have not forgotten and we are not Jewish. I am a baby SNetter so hopefully I will be here for a few more years. The NZ born children and grandchildren of our Holocaust victims still keep this horror before the public as well.

Carolyn

Holocaust classes. I know she is not alone and I do not think information about it will ever die.

I haven't been here for a few days, something happened to my phone line. Telstra channeled/ routed? my calls through my Mobile at ordinary prices-they said. Time will tell! It didn't run to Internet connection though.

I was just reading on our Media Watch site http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch and there was an angry letter about the BBC and it's News coverage on the death of the Jewish Holocaust survivor

I found it most offensive when commenting on the death of Simon WIESENTHAL, on the 20th of Sept. the 7pm News, news reader said that "he (Simon Wiesenthal) was a survivor of a Polish concentration camp". There were no "Polish concentration camps"; all concentration camps during WW2 were GERMAN or RUSSIAN... Even the apologies were wrong; he was not a survivior of "a nazi concentration camp located in Poland" as it had been "corrected". He was a survivor of DACHAU & MAUTHAUSEN concentration camps, both situated in AUSTRIA... BBC NEWS - A VERY BAD JOKE

On a lighter note there was a headline "Croc Takes Man Fishing" and a comment on the friendly wildlife.<smile> I see they are asking for comments on the News coverage of the 2 Hurricanes.

Also some furious words about pronunciation, "vunerable" for vulnerable and "excetera" for etcetera. A lot of people are stirred up about this sort of problem.

Jan, Dachau, in Germany, just outside Munich. Mauthausenn, in Austria. Once, on holiday, we passed near Dachau. I did not want to see more on it.

Mort, there is a great deal of holocaust information on the internet, so some are interested in making sure it is there.

Alice, I should have put quotations around the excerpt to make it clearer that this was just somebody's comment on the Media or News getting it wrong. I was sticking to the subject, the News You Use. This time the BBC made a blue, although I trust the BBC more than most sources I hear.

Cover story of today's USA Today (9/29) -- Did any of you see it. A former Marine, Josh Rushing, plans to accept a position on Al-Zareera (spelling) -- Arabic news agency. People speak highly of the man,of his creditionals, morals, etc. But many feel this is a bit mistake, for an American to accept such a position. What's you take on it?

Also, tomorrow is theoretically the final day of this forum. I will be leaving early to go fishing here in Nelson County, VA with my daughters, but will be back Sunday to wrap up. We probably haven't covered everything there is to cover about tne present state of the media, but we've come close. You have all raised a lot of interesting ideas and I know most of us will be thinking about some of them as we continue to watch, read and examine what goes on in the world. Many thanks to you all for your contributions. It wouldn't have been a discussion without your presence.

PEDIN - As they say this will be "a hard act to follow". Have there been any suggestions

Anyway - have a good trip. Enjoy

I don't think the Holocaust nay sayers will win out. There is too much truth that has gone before them that current and future generations will not be able to ignore. Much media -- in the form of aarchived press, papers, films, literature. Not to mention those who are still alive and providing living historical experiences. And the dedicated museums -- not just in DC. St. Louis has one, and I'm sure other cities in the US also, and throughout Europe, memorials also. Every school child knows about "the Diary of Ann Frank," and every tourist to the Netherlands visits her house.

(Now my Cville family has just walked in the door. Please forgive errors as this is not my computer and it's giving me fits.)

of this discussion. It has been a pleasure to participate.

This has been a good discussion - thanks, pedln.

I shed many a tear over Anne Franks diary as a child. I have read it several times. A great publication that all should read.

Carolyn

Thanks for this wonderful discussion and all the tips and links.

Just got back from vacation, am caught up. I have enjoyed your post so much, thanks for sharing the news as I have learned much. Thanks Pedln for leading this discussion and hope you catch many fish, What kind of fish will you be catching?

GINGER WRIGHT - Maybe Pedln will catch some fried fish - save her a whole lot of trouble.

LOL fried fish eh! now that's a good one. We shall see.

.

Ginger

Haven't been fishing in years, but am almost inspired to go, just thinking about catching a bunch already to eat since I've never cleaned one. If they are fried, they surely have to be cleaned first!

Speaking of fish.....just returned from a vacation in Door County, Wis. and went to a "Fish Boil".....which is a thing they do in that neck of the woods.......different....I must say I enjoy a good filled, fried, crappie ever so much more........

ALICE B - No problem. They're really fresh and the frying sterilises them - guts and all. Saves the nasty part of having to kill them first.

............don't know where this is taking us - but I'm beginning to feel hungry.

And since we've shown we are able to digest the news - guess we can eat anything.

Have to go - someones just turned up with a straightjacket......HELP

I've already escaped, so you're on your own. heheh

ALICE B - Now I know how they get their ideas for those really bad horror movies.

woooooo there is no escape wooooooooooo

Anyway I'm off to bed now (mustn't forget to look under it first)

See you tomorrow?????????????????????????????????????

Ho ho ho -- you all are too much. Fried fish indeed. Actually it was my daughters and a friend who caught the fish -- I'm not going to say how many -- small mouth bass and rainbow trout, which we pan fried. Delicious. Also had a good opportunity to discuss the issues of the world we my daughters. We don't get together very often.

Ginger and Nancy -- I hope you both had wonderful vacations. I'ved heard of fish boils before, but have never been to one.

Thanks to all of you for your support during this discussion. We had an interesting mix of points of view and that's important in any discussion, but especially in one of this nature. Hopefully it has helped all of us become better media watchdogs, watching and reading who says what a little more carefully.

This discussion is now Read Only. Please watch for our new topic October 16.

If you wish to go back and read The News You Use, just click here.

P.S. The October topic will be Thinking and Staying Young.

Curious Minds
A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews
Once a month on the 16th we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for a discussion of two weeks.

Thinking and Staying Young

We can't help aging but we don't have to grow old ! That is what I have been saying for a long time. Having reached this autumn of my life I find I am surprised to find myself feeling young! While the people from my past grew old I see seniors of today staying young! What are some of the things we can do to help us stay healthy, fit and sassy?

Read the following links and add any you have found that have helped you to stay young at heart. What are some of the things you have done to help yourself cope with your advancing years? I hope this will be a lively discussion and that we will find good ideas and good humor. So share your thoughts , your ideas, what has worked for you , how you cope with life as a senior.

Questions to consider:

Is there anything you would like society to change to make your life more healthy , more meaningful?
Where do you find information about diet, menus, medicine?
What have you personally found that helps you to be healthy ?
And what do you do to help you stay interested and feel young?
Do you think feeling young is overrated ?

Click on the link and let's talk it over.

How To Stay Young -- Grow Old Gracefully
Staying Young
Stay Young Forever
Steve Jobs at Stanford University

Discussion Leader: DL annafair

Welcome to the youngest and most sprited place on the net, Seniornet's discussion of how to grow young gracefully even though your birth certificate says you are a very senior person,

In my local paper yesterday was a picture of a wonderfully young senior, age 97. Nelly Saunders whom I met back 10 year ago in the poetry class at the local university. Not only was she in my poetry class but in my watercolor class and she was GOOD in both. Also in my firt poetry class was a woman of 101 who came with her daughter and was very active and sprited.

Another member of that class has an Aunt Sadye who just turned 104. I have met my friends aunt Sadye several times when I was invited to visit with her niece. Now I want to tell you we should all look so good and be so active!

I have an online friend who is a 92 year old gentleman who golfs almost daily and who has TWO lady friends. He is a poet and we exchange poems, and he is always writing and telling me about his collection of concretions .an interesting thing of hardened and sort of rocklike that takes thousands of years to create,He found them along Lake Superior and through the gracious help of younger friends ( and when you are 92 arent most of your friends younger?) has a showing of his collection earlier this year.

What do all of these people have in common? Well I guess you would say they come from a good gene pool but I think it is the fact they dont think of themselves as old and they sure dont act old,. They have stayed active, full of life and a joy to be around. Can we emulate them?

Let's talk about that. Do you feel old or think old or do you think young? What do you think you have to do to grow young while aging? Some of the links will give you a clue. Check them out and share any thing you feel helps you to stay young inside,. anna who tells everyone she is 22 years old!

Great idea, annafair! This should be fun. And doing things that you think are fun is surely one of the top ways to stay feeling young. I really think it's a state of mind as much as anything else. Heaven knows my body keeps trying to tell me that it's old, but my mind keeps telling me that I can't possibly be that old.

Judith Viorst has a new book of poetry called "I'm Too Young to Be Seventy and Other Delusions". I have it on order at the book store. I've read a few exerpts and just have to have my own copy. Possibly this has something to do with the fact that I'm less than 6 months away from my 70th birthday.

The poets always seem to get right to the heart of things. Since I first read it more than 15 years ago, I've tried to live by the words of Jenny Joseph in her poem, "Warning". "When I am an old woman I shall wear purple // With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me"....

I love the commencement address by Steve Jobs, linked above. I saved it, printed it out, and plan to send it to all six of our 16-22 year old grandchildren (to say nothing of our 44-49 year old daughters).

This'll be a good one, annafair!

Oh what a wonderful discussion for us all.....I am anxious to hear from all the posters, their ideas, what they do and so forth.....Tis Sunday morning so do not have the time to get into the questions right now nor read the articles .........Have a reunion to get ready for and a guest coming for several days tomorrow so must get busy this morning.......I shall return later.....am really looking forward to this discussion...............

I have a copy of that poem in my kitchen ,,And like you I try to be like this woman,My family will tell you I have succeeded! Nelly in my first post is my heroine, She is still taking classes and we correspond I gave it up although I write poetry and participate in readings at the local Barnes and Noble and a local coffee shop monthly. My hearing is so poor now I feel I cant truly participate in the classes anymore. We shared our poems in class and critiqued them and since I cant hear what others are saying I felt I couldnt participate. I do take watercolor classes but do that through a local senior center.

ATTITUDE is really important Thankfully I dont have any serious disease but I do have the aches and pains and problems that age gifts us . Years ago I just learned to ignore them >For the most part that is all we can do .. but we can think young ..When I tell people my real age there is a difference in the way they treat me. They want to show kindness by taking my arm to help me walk across a street or they talk down to me which I find so annoying so I lie about my age. I tell people I am 22 and of course that is such an obvious lie since my oldest child is 54 but for some reason they like it that I say I am 22.

AND LAUGHTER IS THE BEST MEDICINE..of course I always knew that but now scientists say so !! And reading poetry OUT loud is a healthy thing to do ,Scientists tell us it is calming but also helps reduce high blood pressure .. SO READ THAT POEM OUT LOUD EVERY DAY Mary !!!

Thinking positive about things helps. I have a sister in law who developed some motion problems when she was 50 The doctors told her she needed to exercise and I was there when one of them told her that unless she did she would eventually end up in a wheel chair. Her reason for not doing them was IT HURT . He told her that it was important for her to do the exercises .Well she didnt and now she has been in a wheel chair for 15 years and the muscles have done just what the doctor warned her about they deteriorate ..I love her but we are only 2 years apart in age and you would think I was 15 years her junior.

I have so many friends who just wont try anything new,. They think I am odd because I have a computer and have met all of these folks on line To me their lives are dull and deadly ..I also had friend who eventually died from MS but I can tell you she kept going as long as she could. She stayed young and healthy inside and was an inspiration to all who knew her.

So I think ATTITUDE is very important.And lets share everything we do or can do to help us stay young inside where it counts. anna

You reminded me of one of my favorite ladies from my water aerobics class. She has MS, has leg braces, walks now with a walker, and has just had her second knee replacement. AND, she is back coming to the pool to exercise and works helping older(?) folks out with shopping, driving to appointments, companionship, etc. AND, I've never seen her without a huge smile on her face and concern for what everybody else is doing. What a woman!!!

Two of our daughters made a cross-stitch/embroidery piece with Jenny Joseph's poem on it several years ago. It's framed and hanging in our living room.

"I have an online friend who is a 92 year old gentleman who golfs almost daily and who has TWO lady friends."

Let's see.. I have so many "online friends" I couldn't possibly count them all

. I'm not 92, but I hope I'm a GENTLE man. I don't golf, but I do have TWO wonderful, beautiful and adorable lady friends, both of whom I love very much. And love DOES keep you young. So does a good sense of humor, which leads to laughter.

I think Abe Lincoln said it well: "Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." The same can be said of age. We are about as young as we see ourselves. I'm sure that the 93-year-old woman who recently came into my son's store to purchase her first computer sees herself as young. And it's obvious that she's always learning. P.s. When my son asked her if she needed help in setting it up, she said that her GENTLEMAN FRIEND was going to help her with that!

I was still working all thru my sixties. I had retired early from the Medical office where I did transcribing. After a "vacation" I went back to work caring on weekends for a family acquainance who was 97 when I started and 104 when she passed away. She had a full time live- in for weekdays so there was no housework for me to do. I stayed from sat.morning till monday morning. Because she was active and lively right up till the last 3 months of her life, we went shopping and walking and worked in her garden and slept about 9 hours a night and she paid me as much as my Job had paid for a 37.5 hour week.

This lady really was the epitome of how to age. She loved her family and had visits twice or more times a week from a son and his wife. There were grandchildren who brought their kids in and we had big dinner parties for all family members on many Sundays. She had many relatives in the area.

She walked at least 4 blocks every day. She worked in her garden, she read the newspaper for two hours every morning while she ate fruit and oatmeal and this was her only 1 cup of coffee then she switched to tea and I think she drank 6 cups of tea daily. She had one illness in her life in her forties and that is all. Oviously she had excellent genetic's still she had arthritis and osteoporosis that caused a deal of pain but she simple saw her MD and followed his orders and instructions. At age 99 she had a total knee replacement and on her 100th birthday she walked around with just a cane to assist her. There were so many people at her party we had to rent a large club house to accomadate all the guests.

I learned to really love my friend and when she passed away it was like losing one of my own family. The year I had my cancer surgery and treatment I continued to work for her on weekends though there were one or two times I had to get a substiture when I felt ill. Also the year my mom needed care I had left my friend and went to care for my mom till she passed away. I returned to my weekend job. I was now 67. I bought a Smith corona word processor and was learning word processing when my daughter saw it she said "why didnt you buy a whole computer. (those days were the beginning) I said I could ever learn the whole thing. She brought me her Mac she was replacing with a new one and spent many weekends helping me learn how to use it. I donated my Smith corona to Salvation Army and my son began building me computers. I have now also taught several neighbors who are my own age to use computers. My latest is a wonderful machine he built two years ago and is set up in my little office with a wireless station so when the kids come they can sit in the kitchen or porch anywhere really and use their laptops which they did when they came to care for me after my latest cancer surgery last fall.

I try to walk every day. I go to Curves three times a week. My friend said she knew that being active all her life doing most of her own housework in a big house and garden plus an exercise program she routinely did every morning. It was strange to me when I first met her to see a 97 year old woman laying on the floor doing the "bycyle" and other floor exercises. Then of course I had to help her up. She said if no one was home she skipped her exercise until someone was there or she did them on the chaise on the back porch because she could get u p. What a delight she was. I feel as if she taught me how to grow old and retain my youthful attitude of hope and expectations. She was a wonderful mentor and employer.

I have attemted to keep my mind as active as possible and I not only read at least two novels a week I join in book club discussion groups and I of course am on the computer a lot. I also write stuff and am involved in our Family Tree. At 78 I have survived three cancer surgeries plus all the chemo and xray etc. This last time I take a different kind of chemo. it is a pill that will be taken for five years.

I feel that my computer and all that it leads me to do has really contributed to my wellbeing and my feeling young at this age.Faith

in fact a more experienced and knowledgeable me. as long as I am fortunate enough to be able to think clearly, even with a loss of some short term memory for words when I need them, OLD is OK. FOR MY MIND, BUT NOT AT ALL FOR MY BODY which limits the size of my physical world and it's possibilities. Who are we kidding. aging isn't for sissies is my favorite line as when i was younger in the swim my favorite was " you have to keep your chin up its a sewer out there.

I guess my point is that I'm ME no matter what the state of my boy or my health. And I just MAKE DO AS WELL AS I CAN. >{?Claire

Claire: If you think you're old, you WILL be old. If you think positive thoughts, it helps tremendously. So says the Rev. Joel Osteen in his best-seller: "YOUR BEST LIFE NOW- 7 Steps to Living at Your Full Potential."

this body is definitelyold. it can't walk very far or bend over well enough to clean up after a small dog or even pick one up. the eyes can only take so muchof this without pain bletharitis is inflamation of the eyelids. there's a lot more which limits almost everything outside the home that I'd like to do including trravel and driving at night to share the model art groups and myt patience is wearing thin when advised by religious people who NEVER agree with me or is it the other way around.

You mean well but you just don't GET IT. I'm a model A ford but not even as mobil as that. perhaps at ten miles an hour on a good day. expecting this body to give me the life I've had is courting frustration. expecting my mind to deliver is still a satisfaction including the ability to inow when I'm KIDDING myself and/or others.correcting typos takes eye power and that hurts so use your imaginations folks.

reading,tv and this is hard on the eye problem but I do it anyway. I still paint listento and accumulate music, discuss what I read in my washington post and newyork times papers on line. I have others too but that's mre reaing. I've got three books going, a meal out with a friend tuesday . . . she drives since I don't at night . . .I MAKE DO. . . so don't be patronizing it's a bum rap telling me how to be HAPPY. . . .Claire

claire

Claire: I'm truly sorry, I know you have problems. But I'm just trying to give ideas as requested in the title and heading of this discussion. No offense meant.

I notice in the links that "young" is mentioned three times......I find that interesting. I don't know about the rest of you but I have no wish to be young, remain young, or look young, for of course I am not.........I try not to think to much about the aches and pains and other things that come along with aging, just take them in stride and go forward....I read, read, read, care for my two dogs, keep house, exercise with a group for arthritis three times weekly for an hour and belong to a knitting group........I take day trips here and there on a bus with other seniors now and then......the last trip was to St. Louis, where we visited Sou lards market, (the oldest outdoor market in the nation I am told), had a lovely lunch , rode a boat on the Mississippi, and then visited "The Pink Sisters"......cloisterd nuns.......once in a great while I even go with some friends to a nearby casino........great food......I don't do things as fast as I used to and require a few little rest periods during the day if I am doing a lot.......nice..........

Claire I signed up for the Washington and New York papers because you spoke of them in another forum. I'm real happy to have them. My son keeps up with the world events and they have given we topics for conversation with him. Plus the obvious of adding to my own knowledge and understanding of the world around me.
I tend to have dizzy spells so I got myself a giant walking stick for when I'm in the yard pulling weeds or whatever. I like to be in the yard so this has helped me a lot.

I am so pleased to see all of the posts and looking forward to this discussion. One of the questions in the heading is DO you think feeling young is overated? I fully expected some people to feel that way .. We all handle our aging differently . And Claire I think you are DOING VERY WELL INDEED. In fact I THINK WE ALL ARE We are talking about this on line on a computer and we all makes sense ...and this is something I NEVER DREAMED could happen when I was thirteen and realized I just might make it to the year 2000 At that time I pictured myself as most of the older people I knew then, my aunts, uncles, neighbors.

If they had cataracts they could , but only some did , wear coke bottle bottoms it seemed to see. I knew of no one who survived cancer, and polio took one of my cousins and left others in various states of paralysis. Measles were prevalent and often left the person with some disability , Blindness, deafness, etc, I can recall getting shots for some diseases in high school and still have the scar from my small pox vaccination.

Regardless of how old we are WE HAVE SURVIVED .. and we have moved on. for some of us we have conquered serious illnesses and for some we have coped the best way we could BUT WE ARE HERE . HOORAY FOR US!

And we can continue to help ourselves and others if we read what can be done and if we can try those things. I know years ago I read ANATOMY OF AN ILLNESS and I will have to get back with the authors name since it is right on the tip of my tongue and it is dark and I dont have a mirror handy> But I did believe the author and used his ideas to see me through 5 emergency surgeries over the years .. and several I needed but were not emergencies.As I tell people the reason I am in fairly good health now THERE IS NOTHING LEFT TO TAKE OUT!

Lets hear it for US .and please continue to share your thoughts, expierences and suggestions ,, anna

I have losted my mom, pa there sisters an brothers as we all have but not living close to my cousins we are not close so have adopted senior net as my extended family and have gone to there gathering along as I have been here. My cadilac (walkers that a few of us use) sure gets me thru the airports and is there if our knees give out.

For my health:

In the spring of 2003 had my bathroom remolded so where the tub was had a jaccuzzi put in ( it was under $300.00 from Menards at the time for the jacuscuzzi) and yes it the best thing for my health, it has grab bar so I feel safe but do not think my osterpathic doctor likes missing his $50.00 each visit to relax me,

as the jacucuzzi relaxes my body so no more muscalers relaxers etc. from my doctor.

If ever a senior net gathering does not have the jets that I have I will not be able to attend.

Oh yes as all familys do we have our ups and downs but go on hoping that things will work out and know that if they don't such is life as we know it.

Nancy

"I have no wish to be young, remain young, or look young, "

DITTO. . . .CLAIRE

Annafair, the author of "Anatomy of an Illness" was Norman Cousins, longtime editor of the Saturday Review.

As for the "young" question, I think the importance of BEING young is greatly exaggerated, and I for one would not wish to go through that again in this lifetime! But to FEEL young is another story. I'm 65 but I continue to feel about 30 mentally; in my dreams I'm usually about thirty. I have to remind myself every day of my true age, because it just doesn't seem right. I don't mind aging; it's natural just as birth and death are natural. It's unfortunate that our society has for some time made the topic of aging virtually taboo, along with the topic of death. As a result, a lot of good counsel that senior members of society could offer, never gets solicited; and people are terrified of both aging and death--yet forbidden to honestly discuss such things.

Regular exercise helps me, and I plead guilty to backsliding in that area lately. I need to start regular daily two-to-three-mile walks again; and I could probably return to cycling (I'm an experienced cycling commuter). I haven't cycled since a small stroke impaired my sense of balance three years ago.

Serious and chronic illness is not something we seniors have a monopoly on; many, many young people struggle against odds that some of us would find overwhelming at any age. To identify illness and being out of shape with increased age is not accurate. And now science has discovered that brain cells can be replaced at any age--it was long assumed that once gone, they were gone. Not so. Experts tell us there is no reason for sexual ability and activity to seriously or automatically decline with age.

Finally, one way I keep my mind active is to keep the TV turned off. I turn it on for tornado alerts and that's about it. I watch good movies via DVD and VHS tape, but otherwise the TV is off. This, I think, may be the single best thing I do for myself.

Last week's issue of Newsweek had a long article on staying healthy while aging which I think is a more important issue than looking "young." No matter how many face lifts or other procedures we have, we do not look like twenty-year-olds. My motto is -- no unnecessary surgery (save it for what must be done) and do my best to stay exercised and well rested.

I think exercise--at all stages of life--is the best possible action to take. I swim at our local Y and see people of all ages, some without limbs, who are doing their best to stay as physically healthy as they can. Exercising with others also provides a social outlet.

Excercise raises seratonin, lowers blood pressure, lowers blood sugar, increases circulation, is good for endurance, helps aging joints and generally makes you feel better. I forgot to mention endorphins which are feel good hormones that are increased by exercise.

I think the focus should be on feeling good and staying as well as we can and not on anything with the word "young" in it.

Maryal

Maryal....I quite agree with you.....everything you said......I exercise with a group of ladies, some more affected than others with arthritis and we ALL work hard regardless of the disability this disease has on each one...... I wouldn't spend a dime on plastic surgery for myself, but that is not to say that it wouldn't be appropriate for someone else..Someone mentioned the t.v..........I agree that it is mostly just a "racket" in the back ground......I would rather listen to the sounds of the day and my neighborhood....birds, kids, cars, whatever......

Jonrkc Thanks for that about 20 min after I posted last night I remembered. It has been years since I read his story which was a testamony of how he helped himself to recover from a serious illness and defied his doctor's prediction of never improving. It sounds simple to say he did it with laughter but that was a part of the therapy he used.

Staying young, I can see that is not what some want to do ,. I think perhaps staying active might be a better choice,. For myself I would never get a face lift, I have had to have too many emergency opertations that I would willing do something just to make me "look" younger. In fact I feel that the too tight look that seems to be common to face lifts is a bit repelling, When I was young I loved the wrinkles on my aunts and uncles faces, I found them fascinating and in fact I find I enjoy the faces on older people very much.

Perhaps young in heart and spirit might be better,.It would seem to me that everyone that has posted here are young in spirit. You have faced aging and have shown you are interested in still living,

And as it has been noted health problems are not unique only to older people. My oldest daughter who is 54 was here this weekend, In her late 30's she became legally blind due to exposure to histoplasmosis a fungus that occurs naturally in the soil She was exposed to it as child when we lived in Tennessee,. Her world became very limited since she cant drive or do any of the things healthy people take for granted. BUT she has not stopped living. She has a whole group of caring friends who sees she gets out for activities, a understanding husband, a church that is supportive and for nearly 10 years has written newspaper columns for her local newspaper. She has been president of her woman's club, organizes the local county fair , serves on the state board for handicapped and disabled persons,(they pick her up and bring her home and pay only for her meals and lodging while at the meetings) and although her vison is limited she has also been the newspapers photographer. She finds that amusing but using her computer which the state provided her she uses some photo software to "SEE" the photos and everyone is delighted with thier photos since she says :I make them look GOOD: She also has developed arthritis and has to take some medicine for that > I know this weekend she was telling me about some of the pain she expierenced with that and has been an asthmatic since she was a child. Her food choices are really limited since she is allergic to tomatoes, rice, eggs and several other things and her husband is diabetic. With all of these things she organized a writer's group with members as far away as 25 miles from where she lives that meets in her home. And works on an annual program of free rabies clinics in her area. And does a newsletter for the women;s club, her church, the county fair etc. Wherever she can help she does. To me she is a prime example of someone whose years are increasing but her spirit remains young. Or positive ...life goes on and she is facing whatever it brings with a great deal of courage. I hope she has learned that from her parents.

For most of us we have fewer years ahead than we have left behind. What I am looking for here are ways to make those years meaningful , Death will come whether we are ready or not but for me I defy it take away my life before my time comes.

I think sharing our thuoghts and ideas to help ourselves and each other is a very positive thing., I do as many things I can to stay healthy and as I say the people I know who are much older who havent giving up living are my inspiration,. And again as I say just by being here, using a computer, keeping up with learning and doing whatever we can ,, regardless of how small it may be is helpful to us all. anna

Today is Oct. 17. I know because it's my 81st Birthday.

At any rate, this looks like a good place to post this message. On my last visit to the Public Library I picked up this card "Banned Books Through the Ages". Included are: All Quiet on the Western Front, Andersonville, Animal Farm, Black Boy, Dr. Zhavago, Grapes of Wrath, Gulag Archipelago, Johnny Got His Gun, Communist Manifesto, The Prince, The Rights of Man, Slaughterhouse Five, Spycatcher, Ugly American, Uncle Tom's Cabin, the Pentagon Papers.

To make this a quiz, name the authors of these books.

George Orwell, Animal Farm; MacKinley Kantor, Andersonville; Karl Marx, Communist Manifesto.

I know a few more, but won't hog the naming.

Well, since I'm an Okie, maybe I need to include John Steinbeck, Grapes of Wrath. LOL

HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Mort!

I love something I read here on SeniorNet about living life to the fullest. The writer said something to the effect of "I want the last check I write to bounce." I think that's definitely a goal to strive for.

Keep Going AliceB. You're on a roll. Mort

It is been so long since I read most of those books, I surprised myself by remembering the authors.

Back when I read Andersonville, I was shocked that such things happened. Now, I wouldn't be.

Feeling young or looking young.

I feel no different to how I felt at 18 in my spirit.

I am told I look OK too but have we gone to far with worrying about how we look as seniors. Tell me what is wrong with a few wrinkles?

You can have a wrinkle free face but a wrinkly brain. My grandkids put things in perspective for me. I had lost a lot of weight because I decided I had to for health reasons. I had never been overweight until I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia.

My 8 yr old grand said to me. "Granny don't get any skinnier. I liked you better when you were cuddly."

I think using ones brain and keeping interested in the world around us keeps us young. I find my grands also keep me feeling young.

Sometimes I think we have gone too far in wanting to be forever young. We are NOT young and there is no disgrace in aging gracefully! We should not be afraid that our faces or bodies reveal our age. We should not be afraid of aging!

Carolyn

Anna, I have a different definition of the word ‘old’ than other people in their 20s do. To me pushing 80 is not old if we are still on our own two feet. When my mind isn’t able to function well enough to take care of myself without outside help, I will reconsider the term, but not yet by a long shot.

When I was in my 30s with 6 children to look after, I started to think about how to stay healthy by not smoking, drinking, eating well and not too much or getting over tired. We lived in a resort town and we had outdoor activities, we socialized and lived a very simple life.

I have fairly good genes but with some weak spots like a slow thyroid gland and osteoporosis which is under control with medication but I am cancer and cholesterol free and my heart is fine.

Attitude is the key word, of course. What does it matter to me if young people think that 50 is old, I do as much as when I was young mentally and physically I slowed down a bit.

Happy Bill, I was wondering if you still intend to come to Montreal for the Bash and I am hoping that you still are interested. We are discussing it in the Quebec discussion right now. You certainly don’t look your age, I was surprised when you said your age just now. You look as fit as a fiddle.

FaithR, I too feel that we should not retire, just change jobs. I have seen your posts on SN for a long time and your mind is as active as ever. I go to water aerobic three times a week. It is good for everything in the body.

Hi! Claire, if a mind is as active as yours you are doing very well. A lot of my children have health problems I don’t have and it is not because of what they did before but some have diseases that I don’t have.

Nancy, right, I don’t want to turn back the clock, I like my white hair and the love I get from those around me now. I feel better about life than I ever did.

Why should we want to scurry around like young people today do juggling two and three jobs and keep buying on credit, not for me, thank you.

Nancy, plastic surgery, what for? I will never look 20 even if I spent 25 K trying to look just 10 years younger.

Like Anna says, a good attitude is good for us.

Éloïse

he realized when people retired after a life of work, they died in about 2 years, so he set about to see it didn't happen to him. When he retired at 65, he never sat down to retire. He had many irons in the fire and kept active until 2 weeks before he died at 97.

Mother stayed busy also because she knew she wouldn't rest easy if she died and another woman came in to her house. lol They celebrated their 73 wedding anniversary before mom was widowed for 3 years, after which she died at age 97. They died same time of night and had mom lived another 9 days, the identical length of time on earth.

Mother had several ailments over the years, most corrected by surgery. It was very irksome to her that she had to take meds for hypertension. Dad died of old age. His cholesterol was low and his blood pressure was normal. They both became deaf in late old age.

I realize they were made of stronger stuff than many. There's no way to really know what it was like to grow up in the back boonies in Arkansas mountain country. My dad was bright and once he discovered higher education, he went for it.

One of Dr. Bernie Seigel's books tells how some people have an inner locus which seems to propel them into ways to live long lives...(Or something like that.) When I read it years ago, I realized my parents had what he spoke of. If I mentioned this before. Well... that's the way it is.

Great discussion!

MortKail: Happy, happy 81st!

Some authors from your banned books quiz, post #777:

All Quiet on the Western Front, Erich Maria Remarque; Dr. Zhivago, Boris Pasternak; Ugly American, Eugene Burdick; Uncle Tom's Cabin, Harriet Beecher Stowe; The Pentagon Papers, George C Herring.

To annafair and everyone:

<<<Is there anything you would like society to change to make your life more healthy, more meaningful? >>>

I would like to see more neighborhood or library learning programs geared toward seniors' interests. I, for one, having gone to 4 different highschools in 4 years, missed out on the music and driving programs which were geared to specific grade levels. Taking up an instrument now is above my budget. I had begun private lessons but the cost went up frequently.

I would like to see my local Bally Health Club offering 2-3 hours daily, in the mornings, to seniors only, for health club members.

I would like to see classes offered to seniors in the community colleges, partially government funded.

<<<What have you personally found that helps you to be healthy? And what do you do to help you stay interested and feel young?>>>

I use a step counter every day. Three years ago, when I first got the meter, I had a problem getting my daily steps to go above the 2000 mark. Now, my typical day is 6,000-8,000 steps. Frequently I reach the 10,000-15,000 range. On two occasions I hit 20,000. I feel physically stronger and healthier, and younger.

Linda

I watch the animals come to Petes Pon where there is a live cam twenty four hours a day. theres noise now. I think there is a sensor which makes the camera shift when that happens. it's night there now and a white something appeared at the top right of my page. lots of noises. This is featured on the National Geographic Magazine home page as Wild Cam or something similar and Pete's Pond in Botswanna Africa. . . .

I just asked for a discussion on it. in Mysteery books we've gotten sidetracted. Of course this is mysterious too . . .the dark continent.

Claire

Seems to me that empathy is one thing that aging can bring along with it, as one of several benefits. For example, I mentioned in an earlier post that I generally feel about age 30 mentally, and appear that way to myself in my dreams. I look at wrinkles in my arms that were absent a few years ago and my first reaction is the one our society conditions us to: Too bad! Then I correct myself: Natural. What's wrong with wrinkles?

Today I've almost fallen three times because of my inner-ear problem that severely affects my balance especially where lighting is poor. Since that stroke and the resulting balance and hearing problems, I can assure you all I have 100% more empathy with folks I see having similar problems. There are many young people who have this kind of empathy, too, but there are also lots and lots of callous ones because they have never experienced such problems--and because they are afraid of growing older and encountering the same difficulties.

So I think, almost every time I stumble, "Now I understand what those older people feel like that I've seen doing this." This can only be good.

One more benefit of aging.

I teach people 18-23 or so. When we are reading short stories, talking about the characters, age often comes up. It gives me a kick every time I ask them to define "middle age." They generally give a range of 35-45.

And then what? I ask them. They say anything over 45 is old.

I ask them if there is a difference between 50 and 80. They agree that there is but can't define it when I ask them to.

So, according to their calculus, I have been OLD for twenty years now.

Keeps you humble.

I think staying healthy should be the focus, not staying young. If you keep moving, you feel better, your ailments get better, you actually do improve no matter how bad a shape you are in. The trick is in going slowly and building up. Linda (chicagovoice) above started with a step counter and is now walking many more steps than she was initially.

Our Y has special exercise classes for people with arthritis, all different levels. One of the women has been coming for years. I swear she has to be in her nineties by now. I heard her talking with a classmate saying that she had tried hard to get her sister to come, ahd told her how much fun it was and how it helped with the pain but her sister just wouldn't do it. Her sister barely moved. It turned out that this was her baby sister, some ten years younger.

I also have balance problems from time to time and I am relatively young compared to many on SN. I think when one does have health challenges one looks at others in a very different light. I think I am a nicer person because of the challenges I have faced at a relatively young age.

Carolyn

Chicago Girl... you said "I would like to see classes offered to seniors in the community colleges, partially government funded. "

In Tennessee, this is a fact. At 60, a person can audit classes at any of the state colleges and universities for free, with permission of the instructor and space available. There might be a few small fees - like parking or books, etc. At 65, a person can take classes for credit as above. We've take some advantage of this, but not nearly enough.

I've been trying for a while now to get the pond camera to come in. Maybe I'm just trying to view it at the wrong time of day. I am studying the countries of Africa and writing in a blog a little of what I find. I search libraries, newspapers, and the internet. Oh my gosh the countries are so unique and wonderful and everyone I study I want to go visit. It is a very nice hobby to have.

when I use the real player entry it takes a bit for it to connect. . . the signal has a long way to travel using the sattleite and sweden and other places so wait. if it's dark that could be because it's night . turn up the sound and listen. sometimes yu can hear crickets and lot s of baanging on the metal link fence protecting the camera as animals investigate. . . you can enlarge the image too in the view == zoom menue to double size or screen size. If you're doing a study on africa it is worth the trouble.

now back to thinking . . . .it keeps me awake at night and I find myself discussing things with myself out loud . . .that's aging too I guess or is it just living alone. . . .claire

In our local paper last year "the body of an elderly man, aged about fifty was found". I bet the reporter was 21!

Carolyn

Who tomorrow will have her second son and third child so I may be late in coming here. I want to say YOU ALL CHEER ME ..I love all the positive thoughts expressed and the things you are doing to stay healthy.

From what I am reading everyone here has EMBRACED aging. You have challenged yourselves to LIVE whatever age or infirmities you might have. And as we have mentioned young people have infirmities as well and I think all of us can be an example to our children, our grandchildren and to those around us.

Claire I have gone to Pete's Pond but havent seen anything yet ..When this grandson arrives and I am home more I will look,.I know how much I used to enjoy africam. I have taken virtual tours of so many places through this medium The Louvre, museums , etc If there is someplace you would like to see and havent or revisit just try to see if there isnt site on the web and check it out.

Claire gee I have always talked to myself When I was young I had an imaginary playmate named Betty and I had long conversations with her Then I discovered I didnt need Betty I only needed ME! So I talk everywhere. Sometimes when I read a book or a poem I talk to the person who wrote it and ask them why or what made them think to write it AND when I read a newspaper column I disagree with I ask the author WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT? and I fuss at them for thinking that way! IF that is a sign of senility then I have been senile for nearly 75 years!

One thing I see here is curiousity Everyone here has shown they are curious and none of us seem to be standing on the sideline of life. We use whatever ability we have to keep learning. TO keep thinking to KEEP DOING I am so inspired by everyone and wish we could MEET SOMEWHERE IN PERSON ..But isnt it great we can MEET HERE ?

Virginia also has a program for seniors where you can audit classes at the colleges and universities ..And ten years ago I participated in something that is called LIFE LONG LEARNING at the University near me. For a nominal fee which can be discounted they offer classes all year and it also includes lecture programs and social activities I have had to give it up because I am becoming truly deaf but they do offer some sort of equipment for deaf people I just havent taken the time to go in and see what is available. I am rapidily approaching my 8th decade and that surprises me ! Can that really be true ? I am sorry but I REALLY DO FEEL YOUNG ! What can I say ? I dont know another word that truly describes how I feel

I have mentioned I have had 5 emergency surgeries over the years A tubal pregnancy that ruptured when I was just 30 and had to be taken 25 miles in the middle of the night to a hospital and the doctors were afraid I wouldnt make it and I remember when I heard the nurse read my blood pressure and it was 40 and 50 over another low number I didnt think I could make it either ..and the last thing I did was the ask God for forgiveness and say a prayer. In fact when the operation was over and I was still on the operating table the doctors were calling me my name Anna Anna and with the light over head I thought it was God calling me ! But I survived and I think after that I have never worried too much about living or dying ..And 35 years ago a peptic ulcer I had for years CLOSED up it was located in the plyloric valve and two weeks of trying different methods did not unclose it and finally the doctor told me WE have to operate ..and I said You wont get an argument from me. those were the worst of the emergency operations I have had but each time I never felt afraid of dying ..and I certainly had a lot to live for, A wonderful husband , children, a world of friends and a world that I have always found fascinating.

I just cant help but EMBRACE life , diminished by years but there and for each of you PAT YOURSELF ON THE BACK for you are doing the same thing.

I loved the book challenge And while I didnt remember all of the authors I did recall all of the books. They made me think when I read them and just re reading the names again I could feel some of the feelings again.

When I return after tomorrow I will be pleased to report on a NEW life and hope that he will grow up in a world that is as good as the one his Nana has enjoyed . a BIG THUMBS UP TO ALL HEY WE ARE ALL GREAT!!! anna

Carolyn--I'll bet your reporter was 21 or so too! "Elderly" came up in a class discussion recently (from a short story) and I asked them what it meant to them. One student said "anyone over 40" so that poor 50 year old was way elderly!

AnnaFair, I just LOVE reading your posts! You are very uplifting. Blessing on the new baby. - Judy S

I have been able to get the web cam. Last night when it was dark I turned up the sound and heard the water and the animals and birds. When the light came up I saw the birds come in...and even heard what I think was an airplane fly over. It is wonderful!
Speaking of old...when I was growing up it was the thing to believe everyone over 30 was old, so I'm happy old has aged a little bit in the eyes of youth.

When I was at school I thought my history teacher was very old. Then at 28 I was in town attending the High Court of behalf of the Govt Dept I was working for and I ran into my old history teacher on his way to Auckland University where he was a lecturer. We laughed and chatted all the way up to the Court and I realised he was only 12 years older than me! He was a young man when he taught me still doing his PhD!

Carolyn.

This morning I saw Dr. Andrew Weill on Today. He was talking about his new book, These are our best years, and he is speaking of post 65 year olds. He mentioned how much more integrated into society and how much more comfortable we are communicating than in our youth. I find that to be very true. I no longer have those feelings of self-consciousness when entering strange situations.

I am a smoother person without the highs and lows of my "premenopausal" years. I have survived four breast surgeries for cancer and since the first one was 14 years ago I feel pretty safe especially now that I have had the full mastectomy. I have all the same problems of eyes, ears, and joints aging but find ways to compensate and along with some ibuprofen I manage to go to Curves for circuit training workout 45 minutes a day 3x a week. The other day I walk but only about 20 minutes now. I know I am blessed with good genes too but I ate my broccoli and my squash all my life.

I don't think there has been a day in my life I haven't had sufficient love from first my parents and siblings, then my husband and children, and still my children and down to the great grands (15 of them.) I am blessed to have 4 surviving siblings. The oldies 80 and I am 78, a brother 77 and sis 75 and sis 70. So when we go out to lunch together which we do as often as we can it is wonderful. I truly believe this large and loving family are what contributes to our continuing health and survival. The only thing that bothers us is that all our own children are fast becoming senior citizens and we haven't got a new name for the past eighties yet. Thinking about that it is something to consider....all these babyboomers, our kids, now old and getting ready to retire. faith

Oh dear, some of us ARE babyboomers<smile>, I remember my class at school had a big bulge like a python that had swallowed a chicken. I do remember someone trying to describe a person to me by saying, she's pretty old, around forty. My 36 year old son seems ancient to my 24 year old. It's all relative.

I think many people sound old by putting down young people all the time. Their music is rubbish, their clothes and manners are awful, they're good for nothing, but here, take this rifle and put your life on the line to keep us safe. Tracks in their hair, scruffy clothes, loud music it's all transient. This is their time in the sun, and we had ours.

Some Oldies are locked into a routine that they refuse to vary. I feel we have to be open and adaptable, the world won't come to an end if dinner isn't on the dot, or things aren't just so. Sit on the step and watch the sunrise, listen to your kid's music now and then, Bob Dylan or Mozart will still be around after it's over. Don't be a pompous, know-all!

I guess it's plain there are some troublesome wrinklies(as the kids call them) in my life.LOL

Happy Birthday a day late, Mort. And thank you for bringing up Banned Books Week. I always enjoyed that week during my high school librarian days, and still wear my "Censored" Banned Books T-Shirt. It's wearing a little thin after 20 some years and some of those books on there are still being banned.

The second link in the heading - Staying Young - lists classic books children have enjoyed for years. While still in librarian mode I'd like to add two others that I'm sure many of you are familiar with -- because they so beautifully demonstrate the our cycle of life.

I'll Love You Forever, the mother croons to her baby, "forever and ever my baby you'll be." And at the end she is cradled by her son as he says, "I'll love you forever, forever and ever your baby I'll be."

Nana Upstairs, Nana Downstairs We see the little boy visit his grandmother, Nana Downstairs, who cooks Sunday dinner for the family. Her mother is frail and stays in her room upstairs -- Nana Upstairs. Then, in the passage of time, the little boy's mother becomes Nana Downstairs, and her mother moves upstairs.

gist of them is death, thanks for reminding us we can feel as young as we want to, but we are still on our way upstairs. LOL I notice there is no mention of pawpaw in either.

pedlyn (you must ride a bike). Thanks for the Birthday wishes. I had read "I'll Love Your Forever" but I haven't heard of the Nana Upstairs, Nana Downstairs book. Who is it by?

I didn't realize that was why they had the bookmark on banned books at the library. There were several others listed in "Banned Books Through the Ages," but I just mentioned the ones I had read.

Speaking of OLD, when I went to college under the GI Bill my most memorable course was "Modern European Writers"..James Joyce, Thomas Mann, Franz Kafka, Andre Mauroux, Marcel Proust. We read and discussed many of the Banned Books, including Ulysses (hey, that's not even on the list.) Still love Molly Bloom's soliloquy.

Mort, Nana Upstairs. . . is by award-winning children's author and illustrator Tomie dePaola, who has over 200 books to his credit, probably best-known for his illustrated tale of Strega Nona. I doubt any of his are banned.

AliceB, I wondered what that link to Steve Jobs at Stanford had to do with staying young, but I think his quote below is telling us to be aware of our own mortality -- a bit more sophisticated perhaps than the books I mentioned yesterday -- but still a messagae about the natural order of things.

"Remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important tool I've ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost everything — all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure - these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart"

Steve Jobs is a pancreatic cancer survivor!

whatever the title is, sponsored a poetry writing for Oklahoma Seniors. The notice was in my local paper so I began thinking about what to write. Only one per person and it could have been written early in life or whenever. My poems nearly always have a turned around type meaning in the last line, but I never necessarily know what it will be, or what will come to mind, until writing. After polishing my effort I sent it in.

The reason I'm telling this: The several posts about how young people think is old. The judges for the poems were college students majoring in creative writing or literature. Without exception, all entries chosen as the best six or seven were VERY dramatic representations of being OLD and getting ready to meet one's maker.

To me, it is significant the young people considered dying the goal of older folks, certainly not remaining youthful, healthy or enjoying life among the living. In their opinion, we were already upstairs, although their choices were not gender specific. lol

Edit: Pedin, considering the state of my health, I am well aware of my mortality.

I got some good news yesterday. A friend clued me in to a Medicare Advantage program that makes more sense for me, at the present time, than the costly Medicare Supplement program I subscribe to. I visited with a representative of the suggested program for two hours, and am going to switch over. I will be saving up to $89 a month by doing so, and getting benefits I didn't have with the more expensive program, such as drug discounting (I won't have to spend MORE hours than I already have investigating all the confusing drug plans), dental discounting as of January, and--one of the best features--FREE membership at any of about 20 health clubs in the metro area. One of them is at St. Luke's Hospital, right down the street from me, about 3/4 mile, which has an excellent fitness center. I'll have full membership privileges. St. Luke's is where I had major surgery in August '99, and was treated better than I've ever been treated in my life--so I felt very happy about this aspect of the plan.

Now if I can just have sense enough to take advantage of the opportunity to get personalized training and do some resistance and weight exercise, use the treadmill when the weather makes outdoor walking hazardous (as it does often in the winter here), etc.

That's the big if. Looking back on my life I see a whole auto junkyard of missed opportunities. I hope I take full advantage of this one!

To me, "staying young" translates to "keeping active," mentally and physically. "Young" has become a kind of buzzword in our society, but I think "active" is still a pretty neutral yet expressive term and one that targets what I, and most of us over, say, 45 or 50, need to concentrate on for our own benefit--and that of those we associate with or who depend on us in one way or another.

Here on Seniornet we are mentally active and as physically active as we can. We don't know what age one poster is from the other because posts don't reveal an 'age', they only reveal 'experience'.

When I meet younger people say between 30 and 55, I often tell them to get ready to live the other half of their life because they are the ones who very likely will reach 100 and when I tell them that, they look at me with unbelieving eyes.

That is because society has been programmed to look upon youth, extreme youth, as the only age worth living in. It is up to us to project an image that wrinkles and white hair means wisdom and caring, not only with our family and close friends, but with people we meet on the street, on the bus, everywhere.

We should have have confidence in ourselves and show that we enjoy being over 50 as much as being under 50 and project a positive image, not making excuses for not being as fit or as nimble as we used to be.

The young have a lot of living to do before they can have the richness that has been accumulated in our mind over the years, they are but infants at 20 something compared to us. Let us be proud of our age instead of falling into the trap that television projects that being young is the only time that it is worth living, it isn't.

Éloïse

so much wisdom there. I'm sending that to my daughter who jus turned fifty. great post. . . . claire

there was a woman on the radio who has authored a book about women. She says in a survey over 50% of women said they would rather be THINNER than look younger. Sorta funny, eh? Although I realize it isn't so easy to push back from the table sooner rather than later. My baby-boomer sweet daughter who I love so very much has a difficult time with her weight. I suspect in her happily married state, she would be first in line to say thinner over looking younger.

Eloise, I had my 79th birthday on the 9th of this month and have outlived many of my friends. 1926 must have been a good year, for my HS class has lunch monthly and usually, there are about 15-20 in attendance, and we don't look half bad, either. Those attending still live in the area. My mother was a bad worrier and I used to tell her not to worry so much and in reply, she would say, "Just wait until you're old as I am and you'll worry, too." Well, she died at the age of 73, still worrying. Here I am 79 and still do not worry. I can't see the sense in it. It doesn't help a thing. I have been a widow for eleven years, live alone and am very contented. I go to water aerobics each morning and often out to lunch and to the movies with friends, etc. Life is wonderful! The Lord has been good to me and I do not have any major health problems!

First let me tell you my 8th grandchild arrived yesterday and was a 9lb+ baby boy William .. absolutely adorable Everyone was there Mom and Dad of course , Two grandmothers, 2 older sisters , 1 older brother and 1 uncle.

I love some of the comments made yesterday. First PEdln I chose to share Steve Jobs speech because we are all on our way to the end of life the day we are born,But what really counts are what we do with the time in between.

I know how young and active Eloise is since I met her in Richmond Va last year and she visited me in Jan this year and we drove to SC for a meeting of "bookies" from Books and Literature . NO ONE would ever guess her age..She is a positive example of staying active Also Pedln was there and again she is great example of LIVING life.

You are right Jonrkc staying active is really our goal Physically if possible but definitely mentally Even my husband who died in 1994 stayed active through the 2 1/2 years of his illness. The doctor only gave him about 6-8 mos when he diagnosed him with wide spread melanoma...That he lived 2 1/2 years I have always felt was because he stayed active as long as he could. When he couldnt walk outside we bought a treadmill and he would walk there as long as he could. Until the last week of his life he got up every morning, showered , shaved and came downstairs.,And even that last week when he was in bed he welcomed company and while he didnt talk much he would smile and say to someone who would tell a joke THAT WAS A GOOD ONE ..Our bedroom for a week was turned into a social club ..and I am glad he LIVED each day of his life.

That is what I am seeing and reading here ..Living ..and several of you have extolled the virtues of aging..And I have to agree with that . nearly 45 years of raising children, moving and living all of the world while my husband was in the Air Force kept me active. A couple of months after he died I was in church one Sunday and there was a pew of about 8 widows from our church and I looked over there and saw them all looking like clones Same proper clothes, coiffed hair do and I knew that the biggest thing in thier week was where to have lunch on Sunday and I said to myself I CANT LIVE LIKE THAT. I have to keep learning and doing.

Bought myself a computer, ended up in Seniornet of AOL , bought a little car and took off on trips to bashes all over the country, Joined a program at our local university called Life Long Learning and was active in that organzation, Started writing poetry and stories and essays ,,took up watercolor ..I have had friends who were widowed after I was who have just given up They think I am strange because I have a computer and meet all of these "STRANGE" people LOL and I think they are just plain strange They ask if I am not afraid to meet people I have met on line and visit them in their homes or have them stay in mine..And I have never had one minute of worry and I have met so many wonderful people through seniornet ..and all of them have been positive expierences , What I see here we have embraced life . And as Eloise said we can and should be an example for younger people I like to feel and believe my children have learned from me DONT STOP LIVING ..

My youngest son told me yesterday he can retire at 51, ten years from now and I told him fine but DONT retire from life only from the job you have now..

Are'nt we all wonderful????anna

CONGRATULATIONS on the new grandson! A new birth is always so exciting.

I do agree that the secret to a "good" long life is to keep active - mentally and physically. Some of us have more trouble than others with the physical part of it, but every little bit helps. Keep mentally challenged is SO important. Has anybody else found the AARP puzzle page?

http://www.aarpmagazine.org/games/

These are all designed to keep our mental juices flowing. I especially like the "Brain Teasers", and I believe they're designed specifically to work certain brain functions. And they're such fun. I do them every day - as well as some on-line jigsaw puzzles, and word puzzles in the newspaper.

Anna, congratulations on your new 9 lb. baby grandson. He is going to be strong tall isn't he?

Betty, worrying will not fix what we are worried about. Concern is OK because we want our loved ones to be safe, but it should not take over our life. My mother used to say: "Don't trouble trouble till trouble troubles you." Her sayings were always in English. I remember them so we. She died at 95.

I am cold, my it's cold today in Montreal, that should 'preserve' me a while.

Anna, you are always laughing and don't dwell on bad things, that is one big reason to stay young, you have a positive attitude. I love that.

Éloïse

or I will have to visualize you at a funny farm. Just kidding, of course, as I know Eloise doesn't mean every minute of every day, but, at a workshop last week the instructor kept interrupting herself often to comment that no one was smiling. She was not talking about anything amusing or funny and we would have been really silly to sit there grinning at her as she spoke. We were simply listening.

Which reminds me (not of a story of someone's last days above the ground, although I certainly have plenty of those), when I was to make a speech before the class in graduate school there were 30 people and I made 30 yellow paper plate happy faces stapled to handles for those in the audience to hold in front of their faces off and on throughout my talk. It broke the ice and was fun. I was older than many of the other students and usually wanted to do something to which they were not accustomed.

I'm also a laugher and have so much fun with friends as we joke and carry on. Some of us more so than others, but we all know we will have fun with each other and when a new person comes along who joins in, that is good, also. When I am around strangers or new acquaintances, I'm much quieter, especially if it is a day I'm not feeling well or greatly rushed for time.

Eloise, someone mentioned earlier re the wisdom in your posts and I very much agree. I hope you are warmer now. My feet were so cold last night I kept thinking I would go in and thaw them in warm water, but I didn't.

I just did a financial analysis of my position and now I have something else to worry about . . as if it would do any good. so it goes . . . .claire

Physically I stay very active and mentally, I experiment with lots of different things. My latest is SuDuKu.. the math puzzle making the numbers 1-9 all over. Great fun and very frustrating at times. Someone in books tuned us in to a web site in Africa called Petes Pond and I am spending a lot of time enjoying all of the animals coming to drink. I love the computer and internet and that certainly helps both my husband and I discover things that we need to know. We bought a motor coach and do a lot of traveling, exploring the US on the ground which is infinitely interesting. Who knew that our great country has so many different faces..

Eloise, laughing comes easy with me. I was voted the wittiest girl in my HS class, and although I don't exactly think of myself as witty, I do enjoy a good time. And, I have that with friends of the past, and also meeting new friends and doing things with them. Living near Myrtle Beach, many northerners have retired in our area and I have become friends with several of them. I believe in getting out and going places with friends.

I tried Suduku...that's hard!!! I couldn't do it. I do love that web cam you mentioned though.

It Sudoku...and it's great. I discovered the Sudoku Puzzles a couple of weeks ago, and I'm hooked already. Yea, they are a little hard sometimes, but they really aren't Math. You don't have to add or subtract anything. It's just a matter of arrangement of the numbers 1 - 9 in a set of blocks, columns and rows.

Fun once you get the hang of it, but truth is, half the time I will get to the end, and have a small problem, like being off. LOL

Still a great challenge, and I enjoy them. The Dallas Morning News added the puzzle recently, so have a ready supply. Still can't give up my Crosswords, though.

Sun

I think any kind of puzzle is great mind exercise. John works crosswords and the Sudoku. I work the jumbles, cryptograms, and double crostics. He does crosswords on line, too; and we both to jigsaw puzzles on line. Keeps those synapses firing!

MaryZ, I do all the other puzzles, too. Silly thing is, I do all my puzzles in RED ink, it's easier to see or something.

Except for Sudoku, and I do that in pencil, with an extra attached eraser...you can figure out why. ha

Sun

and my handy dandy mouse pointer on my pc. My interest at the moment is card game bowling solitaire.

Oh, please let me introduce you to the erasable pen! I buy them by the box at an office supply store. They're made by PaperMate, and are wonderful for puzzles. They're dark enough to see, but definitely erasable for some time. We never go anywhere without our pens.

I've been reading your statements about various puzzles keeping the mind alert. For me it's chess. I play chess on line with people all over the world thanks to a web site with a wonderful chess board interface. The pieces are moved using the mouse. However, if you make a mistake in that game the jig is up. There are no erasable pens for that game.
I agree with the person that posted that reading classic novels help us experience again our younger days. I suppose that is why I so often propose a classic novel like Treasure Island for a SeniorNet discussion. Anna, please forgive me for advertising.
I. also like the TCM movies. A few days ago I watched Till the Clouds Roll By This entertaining movie featured the songs of Jerome Kern and a host of actors from a bygone era singing them. Oh my, the songs in that movie really recalled my younger days, and it gave me another chance to see those actors when they too were young. Watching Van Johnson dancing was quite a delight. I didn't know he was that good a dancer. He was no Fred Astair or Gene Kelly but he hoofed it pretty good.
I found out I can purchase a CD of the songs from that movie and sung by those same actors. I'm sure going to get it. Just imagine I'll be able to listen to all those good old songs as I drive along.

Bill H

Bill H.enjoyed your post....I love Jerome Kearns music......when I am low, (seldom) I put on beautiful music and turn it up! Also a good way to do house work......My best friend was here for a week.....We went out to lunch every day, took long walks, shopped a little, did our nails togather while watching a ditzy movie on t.v., visited lots over the newspaper and our morning coffee,,,,,,,and had long naps in the afternoons.........what better for feeling wonderful!

Due to the joys of email, about 10 years ago,my best friend from high school and I reconnected. She still lives where we grew up and is a widow. We email every day in life.. It is more like a long conversation then regular email. She is hard to move.. no flying and only wants to drive stright through ( not for me), but I try to go and spend a week with her each year. We laugh all day every day, have wonderful lunches of things not particularly good for us and generally act like 16 again. Since all of my family is either dead or gone from the area, this way I can see where I grew up or at least what is left of it.. Our old school was torn down and new ones plural are now where the children go. The name is the same, but thats it. We had our 50th high school reunion this year and I realized that all of those old guys in the room went to school with me ( so I must be an old guy).

Stephanie....I know what you mean about the long conversation with your old friend.......I have had three e-mails this morning all ready from my friend.......she went home yesterday morning!!!!!!!!!!

It is great keeping in touch with and getting back together with old friends and family members. John and his sister have been re-connecting with cousins that they had not seen much since childhood. John and his sister were the oldest of a large scattered bunch of cousins. We are all (cousins and "out-laws" both) are enjoying getting to know one another again, and are planning other, larger gatherings.

We've stayed connected with certain high-school and college friends, and it is wonderful - good for old memories and for making NEW memories.

And if that word is not the one you would use I can say ACTIVE ALIVE INTERESTED AND INTERESTING

Bill you are welcome to advertise here any time. I keep hoping to stop by the library and bring home Treasure Island ,I still have memories ( vague since it has been years) about the book and I like to renew those old memories . Some books I have read several times and ALWAYS find something new,.

I have been busy , first with my daughter and the new grandson and then standing in line at a grocery store for a flu shot! Have to confess I kept the seniors around me and myself laughing while we waited. The line was between shelves and rows of cosmetics, shampoo, lotions etc,. I am sorry but they struck me as funny ..There were lotions for cleansing the skin and lotions for tightening the skin, and for using in the morning , for daytime , for before you go to bed ..etc to prevert aging ? Heavens why didnt they have that YEARS ago? I think it is too late for me LOL And since I am only 5' I would have had to get a clerk to get some of the things down, One gentleman and his wife who also got involved with my funny sense kept bringing down all sorts of things ..it was amazing ..

Then returning from my daughters I stopped to pick up a prescription and when I exited a truck that was in the other lane decided to move into mine and side swiped me. I dont have time to take care of this now since I need my car and hesitate to put a claim in to my insurance company . I had three clains already this year NONE were my fault but if I have another claim I am sure my rates will go up for at least two years So after the first of the year I will take care of this on my own Drat ..and I bought a new pair of silver earrings and agains since I am short I SHOULD NEVER BUY EARRINGS that do not have a hook to keep them in .. place .. I put on a jacket and didnt realize the jacket pushed my earrings OUT and I lost one ..the whole thing was just TOO much ,and I have to confess I shed a few tears and kept dreaming about that truck hitting me ..But I am back and had a wonderful fresh ripe pear this am for breakfast I LOVE FRESH pears and have always thought if I had been Eve in the Garden of Eden I would NEVER have sinned for an apple BUT a PEAR I think maybe ....

Our newspaper is offering the new puzzles as well but I have yet to try one, I do the crossword puzzles and the cryptograms Which I love ..and the other puzzles but havent tried my hand at the number puzzles. have a great day and keep ACTIVE ,. eat those great veggies and fruit and Thank goodness for the internet and this place, anna

in different stages of life. mine have all either died or moved away and disappeared. curtrently my daughter is into art and we e-mail regularitly about that but didn't before and my daily friend seems to be an expatriot american poet living in Helsinki. at least we have conversations bak and forth about that and the arts and dreams and polatics and YOU name it. long phone conversations cost fourteen cents a minute or eight twenty an hour even with Cox special international plan but this is free. no it's not a romance but we both seem to count on the daily ritual of it.

claire

Romance what a lovely word ,, it sounds gentle and falls from our lips with a pleasent sound .. like the tiny bells on my Christmas tree when I push them to and fro, and it is a word that has many faces but the one that I see the most is the one I see in friends ..there is a romance in words exchanged and shared,. of times and places, and unknown faces. It says we are alive ..and here and can see ( perhaps not as clear) and hear (perhaps even with a almost deaf ear) and across the miles we can smile or shed a tear or a hug or SEE where someone lives in words exchanged and although we never meet for the time we are and share our thoughts and words we are enjoying a Romance with life..Claire you so often say something that just reaches some deep well in my soul and I dont always tell you so but it is there and this is how your post today spoke to me ..thanks ..anna

the internet provides. . . .Claire

anna, that's awful about your fenderbender, but so fortunate that you weren't hurt. It's so scary out there sometimes! And there are a few more grey hairs!

I love your story of your travel through the skin-care department. Plain soap and water have worked for me for years - at least as much as it matters to me.

I have always loved Olay products and have used them since I was a teen. I am seriously allergic to something in lipstick, which upset me as a young woman, but does not make me even quiver now. I use products that clean my skin, along with soap and water. Since I have always had mild allergies to certain types of soap, etc, I am very conservative about new stuff and stick with Olay stuff mostly. Dont use makeup unless it is a really special thing and then mostly because my husband loves to see me made up..Now perfume.. I love perfume. Always have.. My Dad loved his women in perfume, so my Mom, my cousin ( who lived with us) and I always got perfume from him at relatively early ages. So to this day, I put it on faithfully every day and think of him..( Who died way too soon in life)

Speaking of skin products and scent.......I have not tried Olay , but refuse to buy the high dollar products in the Department stores...I am a fan of L"Oreal and works well for me.....Like you I all ways wear scent everyday, sometimes a body cream......I am fond of "Grace" a body cream by Philosophy.........it lasts all day......An important thing for me to do every day, is dress and groom even if it is just to clean the toliets! This day I will be going to exercise class , for arthritis........this Wed. I am looking forward to exploring a new community bible study class.....it is ecumenical and made up from all faiths and churches throught the city......we shall see.......I am not big on "doctrine"......may be stimulating....may not.

I shower daily, then dress and brush my hair before going to the curb for my mail.

...

Alice I had to smile at your post..since my mail is delivered to box near my front door I COULD pick it up with nothng on! Well almost but dont. One thing I promised myself when my husband died I would get dressed every day and put on makeup and look presentable. I confess I dont always do that anymore but it has been over 10 years and I feel I can be a bit lax and my dog loved me whether I am dressed to go out or in a muu muu and stay in,

I was thinking last night about some of the things and sugestions made here and how everyone handles aging,.I refuse to think of it as a problem. Diseases can be problems but they can happen to young people even new borns but just aging that is a natural process and I am thinking of the things said here

1 to think positive 2 to keep busy, learning new things 3 to stay active as possible 4 to meet and make new friends ( since for many our old ones are no longer here) 5 to try and eat well , 6 exercise which could come under 2 and 3 7 maintain a cheerful attitude ie laughter 8 while this was not mentioned specifically we show it be being here sharing our ideas and experiences with each other,.HELPING each other and I think that means helping others

I didnt make a list and write it down which I guess I should have but is there something anyone would like to add and elaborate on? I know I read anything about what is new ..what studies have shown works ,,and often pat myself on the back when it shows I HAVE BEEN RIGHT ALL ALONG ...lol

One thing regarding cosmetics I have never used skin fresheners ..or whatever they are called ..but have used Witch Hazel as a final cleanser for my skin,. I use a cotton pad and get it quite damp after I have washed my face,and sort of wash my face with it . I have no particular reason but I just like the way it feels,

I do use makeup before going out because it has a sunscreen in it and it saves me from using a suncreen and makeup ..I have always used as few things as possible .In fact even my husband said I was the only woman he knew that almost never used makeup unless going out But a clean skin felt good to me ..I have had to add a lotion as I have aged because my skin is dry now. And as I said after he died I did put it on everyday and tried to look presentable in case some friend came by but I have fewer friends now and many of them have health problems so we just talk on the phone or on the computer. And I just tell them how beautiful I look LOL

anna

What comes to my mind after reading what you said your husband used to say: "my husband said I was the only woman he knew that almost never used makeup unless going out..."

How many women's makeup habits did he know how they were before they left their homes?

lol lol lol

Annafair......a good synopsis......I used tinted moisturizer now....no foundation as such......very light, very nice, and has sunscreen in it........also lasts forever...........

A good point LOL but he did live in a household growing up with a mother , a maiden aunt and a sister two years older. I do know the aunt when she retired from teaching school came every year at Christmas and stayed until Easter (20 years) and she did put on makeup every morning and replenished it during the day. I am the kind of person if I put it on in the am I never replenish it ..never added fresh lipstick when we dined out etc ..LOL if it couldnt last TOO BAD lol By the way I adored his aunt , being in the air force he was away a lot and she was great company and we played word games all the time and when I was busy she played all the hands in bridge and in scrabble but we used to tell her the other players were cheating ..She was a perfect example of someone who never aged in spirit ...anna

She jokes about how shocking it was to see herself in a video a relative made at a birthday party. She said she hadn't realized how UGLY she was. She still lives at home and says she intends to leave feet first. (She has a rooming house and longtime residents do help her a lot. She had a double mastectomy at age 68 and after radiation treatments returned to her job teaching in the American School in Germany. Her feet were severely injured from the radiation and chemo, but she maneuvered herself to the bus-stop by staying close to the buildings. Her main regret now is not getting teeth when she needed to.

If I were to ask her makeup routine, she would burst out laughing just as I would if asked. She keeps her hair very short, whereas her sister, my mother, had long white hair which she put into an attractive French roll when she was 96 and a high level patient in an assisted living center.

Am trying to convince my aunt to splurge for teeth now since there is every possibility she will still be kicking at 105 considering the life lengths of her siblings. She has the money, but hates to spend it on teeth. lol

I stopped wearing it when I found that wrinkles emphasized themselves when filled with makeup. is that a sign of aging. I just let my bare face hang out. for dressup I use a little purple eyeshadow. . . .when I think of it. .claire

Never wore makeup, always enjoyed the smiles of my youth permanently etched on my face.

I use no make-up (foundation), just a little pressed powder, blush, eyeliner, and lipstick. That's on the day I don't have swim class. On those days, it's just lipstick, and that's gone in about an hour - and like anna says, never redo it during the day.

I have no problem with wrinkles - I figure I earned every one of them, and I should be proud of them - just like the grey hairs.

it's not really a blessing but at 77 my hair is still mostly dark and then there is this 77-year-old face attached to it. . . plus the extra stuff on my neck and . . . the hair just doesn't go . . .so I don't worry about looking any age any more. I had it very short for shampooing but it grew and required expensive haircuts, so I'm letting it get long again for pig tails and poney tails even though it's a mess to wash when it's long. being frugal these days and hair, well, it can be costly.

I sit in a chair with the clippers in my hand and test to see if I can bend over. If I discover that I can I start with my left foot big toe, then when that is done I go to the smaller ones with the little toe last. Ah, that side is done and if I'm not worn out I lean to the right for that foot and hope I can get it done as well.

I don't mind my wrinkles OR my neck which has taken a decided downward turn...neither do I color my hair.....I think the hair coloring is whatever a woman wants to do and whatever makes her feel good...same with plastic surgery......I do love looking at older faces....such beauty in some of them..........

OLD faces will be ours.

from a chair I can't really reach at all but standing next to the sink and hanging on with one hand I can. . sorta, for a little while since I'm essentially upside-down. it's almost funny, but not quite . . . claire

One reason for posting about my toenails was to say it takes being relatively active to perform the job. It is something taken for granted until one finds it can no longer be done and how unimportant some other things are.

When I was much younger and working in the hospital, I came to realize how important it was to trim toenails and how difficult it was for so many people. I would never have thought of it otherwise. In those days the nurses or other staff used to cut the nails as part of the care. But of course times change and now it takes a doctor to do the job, a specialist.

But honestly one has to become a contorsonist as they age to trim ones toenails ...your stories are mine and while I WOULDNT want anyone to see me trying to trim my toenails I picture myself doing it and have to laugh .. I did have a medical reason a few times so a podiatrist had to trim them but all I can say there are no old limited income people writing rules for Medicare or trimming toenails would be an accepted expense ..

NOW IF YOU ALL LIVED NEAR ME WE COULD HAVE A TOENAIL TRIMMING PARTY

perhaps we should think about starting a think like Tupperware did and have toenail trimming parties We could have refreshments FIRST or I am afraid food would not appeal after trimming toenails and then we could applay fingernail polish in bright colors and flowers until the next party I live in Virginia and if yuo all would move near we can do this in 2006!! HOW IS THAT FOR POSITIVE THINKINKG >>>>??? Sorry I feel giddy sometimes when I get a WILD idea .. love all of you , anna

I decided to start pampering myself, and now, once a month, I go to a nail salon and have a manicure and pedicure. I'm not interested in polish on my nails, but the foot bath, hand warmer, and massages, plus the trimming of the nails is well worth the cost. Treat yourself and see if you don't like it. It's not all that expensive - surely cheaper than going to the podiatrist. And I include the men in this, too.

is a scare animal aroundhere Icalled at least half dozen salons and only one does it . . for thirty dollars and is seven or eight miles away. I'm still standing on my head. just did it. . . lol

claire

Good heavens, Claire - they're everywhere around here - I get a manicure AND pedicure for $35.00. Sorry about that.

Toenails are a problem.Because of a medical condition, I get mine cut at the hospital foot clinic once every QUARTER. In between times I'm not quite as bad as Claire, but it's a workout.

I decided about a year or so ago that I would give up skirts. What a relief to be able to bend over in peace. (Actually, I gave up skirts until I reach size x, and that will never happen.) And not to have to wear panty hose. They put me in more contortions than toenails.

I gave up wearing pantyhose when I gave up wearing business suits. I wear trousers in winter or Jeans and longish cotton dresses in summer. To wear pantyhose in our terribly humid climate in summer here is torture. Most women now have spray tanned legs in summer and they still wear their business suits with bare legs. At least that is what the gals in my family do.

Its nice to be able to choose any sort of comfortable clothing one likes when we are older. We do not have to be slaves to fashion any more. In fact most of the fashion wear in the stores is directed at very young women and if we were to wear it it looks like we are mutton dressed as lamb as my mum says.

Time us old uns insisted on some suitable fashion wear for our age group as we are now becoming a very large section of the population.

Carolyn

I quit wearing panty hose years and years ago - a happy day in my life. John feels the same way about wearing a tie. We have sort of a pact that if he has to wear a tie, I have to wear panty hose - like to weddings or funerals or some other "state" occasion. That will surely keep us younger!

when I was dating toward the end of WWII Used leg makeup for several years now I have only worn panty hose for "formal" events like weddings and funerals and when I read a paper at the local University on thier proposal building a Proton Beam CAncer Center and am I glad I did since everyone was dressed to the "nine" I think "I will look into something to make my legs lood :"dressed:" these pale wan white legs look weird peeking out from under skirts or dresses ..In winter I do wear short I am not sure what they are called sort of footies in cotton and in the most colorful designs I can find.. I am going to check with a local beauty shop and see about the pedicure ..and foot massage Awwwwwwwww that sounds heavenly! Will make me feel like dancing ! anna

oh my! panyhose....pure torture...I had almost forgotten them...I am bare legged and comfy slides in the summer, and socks and slides in the winter......fortunatley I can still trim my nails......however if I am not really careful that tummy is going to get in my way!.....I love long skirts, dresses, jeans, and twill trousers.........I also love aprons!!!!!!!!!!

One of the trends around here that some of the young girls are doing is they go to flea markets or antique shops and find the old '50s style aprons and wear them over their jeans. The "retro" look. You would think it would look silly but on some of the young girls it looks kind of cute. Gosh, I have a drawer full of those old aprons. Some that my mother made for me many years ago. But don't think I'll be wearing them over my jeans, at least not outside of the house.

How funny!.....As far as I get in my apron is to the mailbox...I wear one with a "bib" to keep things from leaping onto my shirts!

My grandmother told me that the reason she had no wrinkles was because she always wore a Bonnet outside and/or hat. Also she made her own creme when young of clarified goose grease scented with rose water she got every year as a gift at Christmas.

When I was coming into puberty and got breakouts she had me,scrub with oatmeal, put buttermilk on my face for a few minutes some days before I washed with warm water and Woodbury soap followed by the witch hazel treatment. I have no idea what the buttermilk did but the witch hazel dried the oily spots. I had very little acne and my sisters followed that routine too and were OK too. We also learned from her to use egg white for a skin mask. Lemon Juice mixed into mayonnaise for a moisturizing facial, and many other home made beauty secrets. To this day at 78 I use witch hazel for a toner and very little makeup but I do use Olay moisturizer with spf 15.

I have wrinkles around my eyes and my neck is like all old necks<:>)>

Oh my aprons and bonnets My mother had lovely skin even at 86 when she died and like older ladies they did not expose thier skin to the sun ..and I wish I had listened to her because I have age spots which she never had .Was looking at a picture of her taken on her 80th birthday and while she does look like a senior lady she looks pretty darn good Had she used makeup and she would have looked great but she never used anything on her face but soap and water and witch hazel and powder No lipstick and no rouge She did like necklaces and pretty jewelery but not a lot ..and she loved pretty clothes ..and always wore an apron in the house when cooking I hate to say it but I NEED A BIB as I keep dropping things on my clothes but that is not due to age it is due to being careless.

A few years ago I had a small skin cancer on my right cheek and a plastic surgeon removed it and put in about 6 tee tiny stitches and when it was over I noticed it had lifted a small wrinkle down near my mouth I keep checking to see if I am getting a small skin cancer on the left cheek so I would be balanced lol

So men do any of the things we do ???

How about are there any gentlemen reading here ..do you do anything ie dying your hair, getting hair implants , using skin lotion and after shave And by the way witch hazel makes a great after shave for men and only costa about A dollar a bottle .Does your skin dry out>? and if you arent you should be using a sun screen...

anna

I had a frustrating experience shopping at Target last week. I was looking for skirts and the shops are packed with those three layer gathered peasant skirts that are all the rage this year. My hips said they wanted something ALine or slim. I asked one of the girls were there any skirts there without frills? She thought for a minute and said ahhhh- no. None, in the whole of Target!. Then I went to Noni-B and saw some lovely skirts, fashionable but not girly, and then looked at the price tag-$100(gulp) Age approriate clothes cost apparently. I love young girls in these clothes and don't begrudge them their fashions, but shouldn't there be a range always? All the singlet tops this year have sequins and glass beads on them. Of course they need hand washing and the dog is the only thing that's getting a handwash here.

When my youngest son was in Grade 1 he told me I was the oldest mother in his class. The teacher said no dear, there's another mother older than you. We were on our after thought children and the other mums were on their first. Made me feel so good(rueful smile)

My stepfather has been old for about 50 years. His ways are set in concrete and so is his mind. It's sad, really. A wasted life.

Clothes.. Right now they are driving me nuts. I have always loved clothes and even in Florida could find nice things. But the last year.. Shorts, jeans, etc are fine, but dresses? nothing.. I finally found some lovely A-line skirts in Belks.. cotten and stretchable.. I love the velvety sweat suits and when it is cold live in them. But I was going to my 50th high school reunion this summer and it took a month and a lot of stores to find a dress that was even remotely suitable. Very depressing. Need to find a grown up store..

I understand everyone's concern with clothing When I was a young I was small and dainty and unless we shopped in the girls department I could never find clothes that fit and then it was only skirts and blouse or sweaters If I needed a good dress or a formal my mother and I had to make them. In fact most of my clothes were made by my mother ..and one of my brothers gave me enough money to buy a singer sewing machine when I married and I am now on my fifth sewing machine. I made all of my clothes .. of course now that I am a very senior lady and my figure ..well we just wont discuss that ..but because I am only 5' I still have to make my own clothes, Mostly I make a-line skirts and buy sweaters of knit tops to match or compliment my skirts And I make my slacks as well I have never been able to buy slacks that didnt require me to cut off about 8 inches on the bottom and rehem and because the rest of my torso is now too much the legs look like they would fit an elephant and flop around my limbs ..So I make my own but have really got into skirts since an a line skirt is so easy to make. Sometimes I dont even make an a line but just sew a single seam in a 60 inch wide fabric put a piece of elastic in the top for the waist and just hem the bottom ..all on my sewing machine ..Now if some of you ladies lived near I could open a small buisness and make you some a-line skirts!!! For the cost of the fabric ( and I only buy mine on sale) and fifteen dollars for my labor and we all would be set! Perhaps you can find a seamtress where you live to do this .

I had such a small waist and if anything depresses me it is to see my waistline disappear! AUGH

One thing I have noted here is all of you seem to have accepted where you are in your life, Wrinkles, sagging anatomy,. limits not being able to do the things you used to do, not being able to enjoy the food you used to do, and the trouble with finding decent clothes that fit and and make you look attractive , NOTHING seems to have taken away your zest for life and your humor NOW THAT IS STAYING YOUNG AT HEART.

,Someone once paid me a compliment and I wrote a very brief poem about it and will post in poetry today but will share it here anna

 
You make winter warm  
No need for a coat or hats or boots  
Just the thought of you  
Warms my heart  
And in the midst of winter’s fiercest storm  
Thoughts of you  
Make me feel like a summer song. 

anna alexander October 24, 2005, 11:36 AM©

What a lovely poem, anna - and great of you to share it with us.

I've just bought Judith Viorst's new book of poems, "I'm Too Young to be Seventy". I'd love to quote one of them, if that's legal. Let me know.

Mary Z........as far as I am concerned quote away......I have orderd that book for very little from Amazon's used book section.....

I really like their stuff. . . a bit pricey and I'm serious about taking off fifty pounds so will wait. . . but it's age appropriate I think. .in fact ageless. at least some of it is. have a look. . . .fancy sweater ageless or what.

I get the catralogue. drool a bit and toss it . . .for now . . . . Claire

A good tweed jacket and a good pair of Jeans can be worn anywhere. A well cut tweed jacket is ageless as is a good well cut black Jacket in a classic style. They will take you anywhere with jeans or a contrasting pair of trousers. Some good light but warm turtle necks are very good for under jackets.

Carolyn

But I go places here where jeans are not allowed and I'm not talking about church. Sounds to me like maybe a fashion folder needs to be formed in SenNet for those who want it.

Makeup and fashion for the aging and active/inactive woman. Of course, not counting those who aren't as old as most SeniorNetters. When I was that age it wouldn't have occured to me to be in a senior age forum with the internet so full of those for younger ages.

Tweed jackets (a good one, yes!) and jeans were hot in the seventies.

all the time . . . sometimes even to work and sometimes not appropriate. but then california's cities set trends. the entertainment business has an impact. I'ved tweed about fifty years ago and then I got married and became a domestic and could't afford it. Also learned that men like women to look a little dressier when we go out than jeans and a jacket. god classic style though elsewhere. . . .I wrar soft pants and tops and an occasional jacket or vest as needed. jeans to harsh for me now even when well washed. . . .Claire

Over here and in Europe too Good well fitting Jeans and Jackets are acceptable in church as well as restaurants etc. Of course if one went to something like a Diplomatic reception or a Dinner dance an evening gown would be necessary. I look really smart in Armani Stretch Black Jeans and My Harris Tweed Jacket> (Jeans courtesy of my Son) Jeans come in all sorts of colours now not just denim.

Claire my Jeans are very soft and comfortable. They are made in light weight stretch material too for summer.

Oklahoma girls wear jeans, too. LOL Just as all ages do and have for nearly as far back as I remember. Yes, jeans are a popular garment and I surely do hope and trust all wear GOOD ones... not those cheap models. Must no be caught in a pair of those!

I married a school teacher and it was necessary to be frugal soI bought work denims at sears and blue cotton work shirts as well. of course in those days I had a shape and could make anything look good. . . . sigh. I like those one-piece overalls too over something with a boat neck and mid to long sleeves or nothing for them young things that have the equipment. . .cheap has nothing to do with the LOOK, although at one time it did.. . .claire

nice consignment shops here so there are many choices. They must have an excess of slacks and jeans donated, because there is usually a good supply on the dollar rack. I don't try them on, so occasionally I've guessed wrong about fit, but generally am close. There are racks of dresses, tops, skirts, jackets and all the other items I've not listed. Some are out-of-date, but most aren't. Thank goodness for the many ladies in the area who clear out their closets after gaining weight or else are just tired of something. People who wish to have bunches of "new" things without much cost can enjoy some great finds in consignment shops.

Well Missouri women and girls LOVE jeans.....there are styles and fits for woman of all weight and height.....I think a more casual lifestyle is in vogue right now......people wear all most anything they please to church and this is mostly for the good.....one doesn't have to be a fashion plate to attend services....this was not so many years ago....some were ashamed to go for the lack of clothing....I have jeans but favor the twill cotton tailored pants at the moment..Along with sweat pants for house cleaning and exercise......Yes we have our own little fashion folder within a folder.......

Even used jeans from the USA are desirable to those in many countries. Thank goodness for Levi Strauss, who emigrated here from Bavaria. He was only 20 years old when he left NYC for the California Gold Rush with a few dry goods to sell and the men didn't want his heavy canvas for tents and wagon covers, they wanted pants which didn't wear out so quickly. Levi made canvas pants and the men liked them, but complained the cloth was too heavy. Levi then used some utilitarian cloth from France which became known as denim and the rest is history.

A few days ago I noted a post that stated most women seem more interested in being thin than looking young. There's a very simple way to lose weight: Use smaller plates and don't refill. If you use a 10 inch dinner plate now, go to 7 or 8 inch plate.

I also think that eating "dinner" at noon and "supper" in the evening helps. We usually have soup and salad, or soup and sandwich at night. Sleep better too!

I wear jeans for everyday, but I am short, somewhat round and they simply look stupid on me for dressier occasions. Tweed Jackets for me would just be silly. Not a style I would be comfortable with. I like soft drapable fabrics for dressier occasions and when we were in England in April, did not see many people in London or Edinburgh except students in jeans, etc. Just depends on the life style. I like J.Jill, but they are a bit pricy, but nice. I grew up in the country and because I was short, my mother made my clothes until I went off to college. I used to make a lot of clothes, but simply dont any more. I suspect women never grow too old to not be interested in clothes. Just wish department stores would pay attention to us.

was five nine and normal weight and nothing fit. one size on top, shortwaisted, and another on the bottom apple hipped I eventually found a woman to make my pants for me in exchange for my pottery and later one who rented a room from me and was a professional designer. her stuff looked GREAT and I'm spoiled forever. .. . .She now lives in Malagua. . . .Claire

Aubrey de Grey is a young scientist who thinks he's onto something that is important to all of us and ours. Aging can be cured at the cellular level because that is where it happens. The scientific ney sayers have found themselves forced to take him seriously. . . although some wil not comment, protecting their images. see his home page.

the DEATH OF DEATH

the term from an article in a scientific newsletter

Interesting about clothes. I too go to second hand shops and my sister and me have never worn such expensive things. Often bought coats there that there is no way I could afford new and sometimes they were new, never worn. She is a much more patient shopper than me though. I like pants for every day, skirts for special occasion that I sew for myself and like Anne said they are so easy to do.

I bought a new sewing machine and this one is really great, no pedal, you just push a button to start and stop, it is so tiny too. Seniors too like to dress in fashion and I wouldn't like to wear old looking clothes.

Stephanie, yes, women's clothing stores are geared for the young shopper I found also.

I invite everybody to come to the Seniornet Bash in Montreal July 20 to 24, 2006. If you have never gone to a Bash you don't know what you are missing. We have a lot of fun.

Éloïse

How we look ! And that is a healhful sign. Caring is good sign , it means we make an effort to stay healthy, attractive and that is not only for our bodies but for the clothes we put on them. Caring is the no 1 thing we do for ourselves whether it is our personal looks , the clothes we wear, how we do our hair , the whole bit ..and I think men who care live longer as well I think it is sad when some men retire they no longer care about their appearence , Well we should all care. We all know life is limited but our attitudes can make it worthwhile ..

I loved all the opinions on clothes I have never worn jeans ..they really werent poplular when I was young and tailored slacks were along with a very feminine blouse as a rule.I like neat clothes , pretty clothes and comfortable clothes . for me that usually translates into making my own,. Today and yesterday I was involved with my new grandbaby and I wore a new outfit ,. well the skirt was new The fabric I purchased last year along with s suede cloth jacket in purple grape shade The skirt was made of 4 inch patches of pinwale corduroy in a mix of print and plain grape and deep magenta . when I went to put it on this am the ourfit was next to a knit turtle neck in a sort of mauve with a silver thresd . looked fantastic and I know my daughter thought so too ..and I felt fantastic my daugther bless her heart said sometime when we were just chatting That I hadnt aged in ten years While I was patting myself on the back on my way home I thought hmmmm wonder if she meant I have looked ten years younger for ten years or I looked ten years older ten years ago and look that old now ???well LOL of course I believe she said the first!!!

And Happy BIll I have always used a luncheon plate since I have never eaten large amouts of food but I have to say I have gained weight and it isnt the amount of food I am eating but and I BELIEVE this my metabolism has really changed .

However I have added several cups of green tea a day to my diet and have lost a few pounds while nothing else has changed Now either the tea is beneficial or I am eating less and not truly aware of it !

This discussion is winding down and I will hate to see it end, I have learnd a lot from all of you. AND all of it good ,,and we have shared ideas, dreams, our lives and our ideas for not living forever but for making the most of the hours and years we do live! This has been a dream discussion to me. I miss conversation , I miss the exchange of ideas, I miss the sharing .. and Eloise who is an elegant lady in all ways allows me to call her every so often and we TALK and TALK for at least an hour. It is the only way she gets to truly practice her English ..Now the one indulgence I have given myself is unlimted long distance phone service SO if any of you want to and can chat for 30-60 minutes email me yuor phone number and I WILL CALL ,..now I must warn you I once talked to a stranger for 4 hours and 45 minutes to a wrong number!!!! But I have an agreement when my listener tires they dont have to make excuses like there is someone at the door,or I have another call coming in or anything like that JUST SAY ANNA >>enough I have to my this phone excised from my ear ..but do call again ! You have all been wonderful anna

Eloise - Ruth and I haunt the second hand clothing stores and believe me we get some beautiful jackets etc for next to nothing. She has bought several business suits there also. I love wearing smart jeans and probably because I always had to wear business suits at work.

Carolyn

Anna this has been a great discussion. Thanks to everyone.

Carolyn-

I see that the verizon one is troublesome and that we should use the hotmail addy. so what is it. . . .Claire

Verizon is fine now. I had some problems when I purchased this computer last year..but I do check both hotmail and verizon so either will reach me..and I hope you will take me up on my offer to call on the phone..with my hearing loss it can be a bit frustrating but I manage and the people I talk with do too..All good things must end..thanks for all the wonderful posts here..anna

I've really enjoyed this discussion, anna, and really appreciate your thinking of it and leading. We'll be looking for the next one, too.

I sure enjoyed reading everyone's posts and following the links. I'm so sorry to see this discussion end.

ANNAFAIR, if you are 22, you found SENIORNET when you were too young to qualify to be a member.I've seen you around for a very long time. I just could not resist since your post was the first one I read.

My, my, I must cruise SENIORNET more often. Most of my favorite discussions have just about dried up. Maybe it's because they have been mainly medical and most participants finally figured out what's wrong with them and now know old age is hardly treatable. From now on i'm going to focus on THINKING AND STAYING YOUNG OK, I know how pessimistic and futile my first post must sound. Henceforth, I shall send out only positive vibes. Hopefully I have found this promising discussion just in the nick of time while I can still remember to come here to find life enhancing secrets. In the meantime, If anyone knows where there is a FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH, please cut to the chase and share its location.

Glad to hear how all of you are maintaing your wonder spirit and love of life.......thank you Anna......bless us all.......

Anna, this has been a terrific discussion. Thanks so much. And hugs to the new little grandson.

Cliff, (that's my son's name) so glad you found SeniorNet. You will never get bored here, the well doesn't run dry, and the folks here will be happy to see you.

"Read Around the World" is finishing up its October selection, Shadow of the Wind and will soon be nominating selections for January. (Since December is usually a busy month for many, we have postponed our international book discussion for one month.

Nominations -- Monday, Nov. 7 throught Saturday, Nov. 12

Voting -- Sunday, Nov. 13 - Friday, Nov. 18

If you enjoy discovering new authors or like to read books set in other than the US or Great Britain come by and offer your suggestions. Let's see where in the world RATW is going this time.

Read Around the World

By educating oneself on the importance of health and nutrition. That is the key to rid of sicknesses and diseases. By learning what type of foods and vitamin or mineral supplements that'll alleviate aches and pains and being able to sort out the difference between good and bad products. Did you know that many people don't even know that they may be taking excessive calcium but not enough magnesium which in turn gets deposited in your joints and consequently results in joint pain and nodules in your fingers? Last but not least, I refuse to take drugs that conventional doctors prescribe and push and I definitely stay away from them. If I have any health issues, I do research on them on alternative medicine websites or through subscribing to different publications and treat the problem myself with natural products. I'm 65 and I can compete with people many years younger than I am, including outrun them. Remember, Hipporcrates, the doctor of medicine said eons ago: "Let food be thy medicine."

I wish this had appeared in the NYT earlier, rather than this Sunday morning. A review of Mary Gaitskill's "Veronica" and a short bio -- I was liking her until she said --

'And she has enjoyed the kind of social assimilation that marriage affords. "You know, if you're an older woman and you're not married, I think it makes people uneasy," Ms. Gaitskill said. "It was a comfortable feeling to become a recognizable member of the herd." ' (italics mine)

A couple of questions -- where is the dividing line, if there is one between older and old? (Gaitskill is 52) And does the designation of "old" as opposed to "older" reinsert one into the "herd?"

My parents, both lived to age 97, did not like the term elderly, but did not mind being referred to as older. I'm not sure when this began but estimate 75/80. As to couples being uncomfortable with older single/divorced/widowed women in their company. I'm not sure why the author used the term "older" because it happens with a wider range of ages. My experience is it is the wives who are uncomfortable. I learned long ago to pay all my attention to the wife so that she never once needed to suffer a pang of concern that I might be after her husband. Never in a million years would I want a man who would leave his wife for another woman.

First I hope everyone continues to feel life is worth living..and then LIVE it to the fullest you are capable of AND one reason I lie about my age is young people like it ,and treat me differently Once some one knows my real age they act like I am doddering when I can still do all the things they do and in fact sometimes better.. And like Alice who would want a man who would leave his wife and family ..I enjoyed the husbands of my frieds and they were my friends as well but it was thier wives who I gave most of my attention to and I even loved some of their husbands IN The best possible way as a dear friend and the wives and I were became better friends because of it ..I have no idea what subject would make a good discussion but curious minds is a place for curious people to come and see what some senior netter has to offer. If there is a subject you are curious about Email me and let me know and I will see if we can use your idea LOVE TO ALL you are all really SPECIAL anna

Bravo Anna for a great Curious Minds and your last comment was wonderful, you love life with all its failings, that way you forget the other times when something went wrong. I try to remember only the good parts, it helps in getting mentally prepared for what lies ahead.

Nearly all the posts mention staying young, thinking young etc etc as if young is the be all and pinnacle of existence. Perhaps we could change the words to staying perfectly in tune with life, or celebrating our moment or time, or some other fitting phrase instead of always comparing ourseves to the past.

It's been very interesting and a pleasure to read.

Jan I am in agreement with you completely and said so in one of my first posts....I am in the season of my life that I am in and am living it to the hilt! I enjoy everyday and busy everyday.......

Sorry, on that one I have to disagree. IMO there's nothing wrong with the straight-to-the-point term, "staying young". I prefer simplicity, and stating things in plain English.

When I was filling an application form for volunteer work once, there was a space which read: "Profession" and instead of putting down "retired", I wrote "living", because it takes hard work staying up-to-date and informed after you stop earning a salary to stay on your feet and I never retired per se, I just changed occupation. What would you have done in my place?

Éloïse

sorry, I couldn't hep meself.

I, as you suspected, would say "retired". Now it's a little different when they ask what my race is. I often say "human", because I don't think it's any of their business.

Sorry Nancy, my memory doesn't extend back to the beginning, obviously!

Happy Bill, but you aren't staying young, because you are here in 2005<smile>. Well summing up Nancy's answer-I'm me, now.

evidently we can't let it rest. supposedly this discussion is over. . .but we're ot through. . . tenacious aren't we about everything present and including our histories as well as our futures. . . claire

1. Throw out nonessential numbers. This includes age, weight and height. Let the doctors worry about them. That is why you pay "them "

2. Keep only cheerful friends. The grouches pull you down.

3. Keep learning. Learn more about the computer, crafts, gardening, whatever. Never let the brain idle. "An idle mind is the devil's workshop." And the devil's name is Alzheimer's.

4. Enjoy the simple things.

5. Laugh often, long and loud. Laugh until you gasp for breath.

6. The tears happen. Endure, grieve, and move on. The only person, who is with us our entire life, is ourselves. Be ALIVE while you are alive.

7. Surround yourself with what you love, whether it's family, pets, keepsakes, music, plants, hobbies, whatever. Your home is your refuge.

8. Cherish your health: If it is good, preserve it. If it is unstable,improve it. If it is beyond what you can improve, get help

9. Don't take guilt trips. Take a trip to the mall, even to the next county; to a foreign country but NOT to where the guilt is.

10. Tell the people you love that you love them, at every opportunity.

AND ALWAYS REMEMBER: Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath.

Curious Minds A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.
	Our new topic will begin December 16th with Bill H. See you then!