Curious Minds ~ 2002 April Export

The Curious Mind

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Welcome. The topic for the next two weeks will be about The Generation Gap.

LINKS
New Generation Gap
Generation Gap Narrowing (Univ. of Chicago)
Generation Gap Website
A Genertion Gap?

G.I. Generation
Born 1901 to 1924

Members of the G.I. generation are high achievers, fearless but not reckless, patriotic, idealistic, and morally consciences. This generation produced America's first astronauts, Nobel laureates, legendary movie stars, and political leaders. Many members have been label heroes for their outstanding accomplishments. The initials "G.I." stand for general issue or government issue. Throughout the G.I. life cycle, the federal government has directed and supported its members with new programs and departments. The G.I. generation learned early on in life how to be a good team player putting their trust in government, authority and community. A generation of "doers' and "believers," many achieved a higher standard of living and education than their parents. G.I.'s are survivors of the great depression - easily made happy with a good job, mild future, and a little house for family.

Boomer Generation
Born 1943 to 1960

The Boom Generation developed under parent's care dedicated to nurturing their children to success. Most families had stay-at-home moms whose primary purpose was to devote themselves to their children's well being whether that be social, economic, or spiritual. Parents at the time relied heavily on the guidelines set by and advice from the leading pediatrician of the time, Dr. Benjamin Spock. Dr. Spock published a baby care book that became a "Second Bible" in U.S. family homes. Parent's used reason to discipline their children thereby setting up a democratic environment in which their children would flourish. Boomer's seemed to develop personalities that mixed high self-esteem with self-indulgence. Since Boomers thought their parents' world was in need of a major overhaul and because they were taught to think critically by questioning everything, they saw their role in society as not to obey its rules but rather to justify, purify, and force change wherever they believed it was necessary. They would make themselves heard by lighting social and political fuses that caused dramatic changes or rather "booms heard worldwide".

Your suggestions are welcome.
Discussion Leader: Lorrie

Silent Generation
Born 1925 to 1942

Members of the Silent Generation are considered cautious, unadventurous, unimaginative, withdrawn, and silent. The Silents felt they were a generation without a cause. Remembering World War II from their childhood, many Silents were looking for a cause. Some found the Peace Corps, founded by John Kennedy, as a way of achieving a generation bond. The vast majority of this generation wanted job security offered by big corporations. Only two percent took the risk to be self-employed. Born mostly during an era of depression and war the Silent generation knew hardship and knew how to struggle through tough times. The Silent generation was the earliest marrying group in American history. Men married at an average age of 23 and women at 20. Ninety four percent of women became mothers and stayed at home raising an average of 3.3 children. The start of the "divorce epidemic" as men and women born between 1930s and 1940s showed the biggest age bracket jump in divorce rate. No fault divorce laws jumped from zero to forty-five as the Silent generation was rushing to get divorces

13ER Generation
Born 1961 to 1981

Generation "X" or the "13 ER" appear shocking to others on the outside and unknown on the inside. Older generations classify this generation as irresponsible, reckless, uneducated, and violent - the generation only concerned about me. "13 ERs" find this criticism both overblown and very unfair. This generation observed parents and other adults not in control of their own lives or their country. A country totally out of control, with actions and impacts ranging from the Vietnam War to nuclear power accidents, e.g. Three Mile Island; while on the home front, families broke apart by skyrocketing divorces creating an unprecedented number of single parent households. The surge of mothers into the workplace created "latchkey" kids left alone to fend for themselves. This is a generation of children without a childhood. "13 ERs" are survivors of what the adult world have left behind. Forced to grow up fast and overloaded with information, this generation finds it hard to understand what is truth, right from wrong, or how to achieve success in their lives. "13 ERs" are confronted with drug addiction, AIDS, sexual freedom, uncontrollable violence, educational requirements, and environmental and world problems created by past generations. This is the odd generation, born on "Friday the Thirteenth", or the generation "cross-out" with a capital "X".

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Welcome to the fresh new Curious minds Discussion

Our new discussion topic is Gardening and Gardens
I think that there are few people who do not like gardening; and I, for one, am among that majority who does love to garden. At the moment my garden is still covered in snow, but it will not be long before it will be melted away and the sun will be warming the soil. It will be another month before any of my perennials show themselves shyly above the ground, and not until the end of May do things truly begin growing and I can see how the garden will be in July.

But as soon as I see bare ground, I begin staring the plants out of the ground. And it works every year.

I'd love to hear about your gardening experiences -and even a window box or a pot of geraniums on a balcony count as a garden in our discussion -- any thoughts on the linked to articles are very welcome.

I cant keep up with my garden as much as I would like and it is full of weeds at the moment. We are fortunate to be able to grow flowers and some vegetables all year round. Altough it is autumn I still have cherry tomatoes coming on. A lot of my plants are in pots including bell peppers. I dont use spray of any kind as I have severe reaction to them so gardening is hard. I use the soapy water and garlic from the washing machine for aphids and some diseases.

I have many trees and my favorites are the bright red bottle brush trees which line my front boundary they are very tall. I have two very pretty ericas in my front garden and they are the most lovely lavendar pink and they flower almost all year round. I have tropical plants outside too including the black taro lily which has the most beautiful smell in flower which is very strong at night. I also have a 12 ft high Monsteria Deliciosa - (fruit salad plant) which once was in a pot in my living room and now in my south side courtyard. It does fruit too. I have just planted a boronia, which has not yet flowered. My garden is very rustic not at all manicured but that is the way I like it. Nature does not have a manicured look. We eat outdoors a lot in summer in the evening and winter we eat brunch outside its still warm in the sunshine.

Carolyn

One of my most lovely and serene memories is of myself as a three year old, at Tahoe, squating down at the foot of a pine tree where the snow had melted first and though there was plenty of snow still around in the yard the grass was springing up where ever it melted bright tender green shoots and here under the pine's on a little rise close to my Nana's cabin there were Violets blooming. I remember sitting there just drinking in the sight. It was love at first sight of course. I fell in love with growning things. I had been so sure that the snow never stops and this was my first real miricle to see the Violets grow there at the edge of the snow. Faith

Gardening means different things to me than it does to my wife - and most of you from the sound of posts so far. My idea of a garden was achieved on a small farm where I raised my kids. The garden plot was 150' X 50' located on a creek bank with about 4' deep topsoil. It was fertilized with the cleanings from the chicken house, so if neglected, it could grow weeds over my head.

I started turning it over with my shovel in March every year, hoeing and planting some frost resistant vegetables in April and the beans and squash in May. Squash were planted by digging a deep hole, dumping in a shovel full of cow manure, then filling the hole and building a small mound to put the seeds in. If I didn't check every day, zucchini could get as big as watermelons.

The middle few rows were raspberries. We mixed the juice from them with juice from the wild blackberries all along the roads in western Washington State, to make delicious jelly for our muffins and the kids' peanut butter sandwiches. The rhubarb plant lived just downhill from the compost pile, so grew huge stalks for those with pallets for it sour/sweet taste.

Every year, we filled the freezer with green beans (Kentucky or Missouri wonder, not these tasteless blue lake beans you get in cans now,) Swiss chard, spinach and baby beets with greens. We never bought vegetables at the store while we lived there.

We had cabbages, lettuce and tomatoes for the table and plenty of carrots for the kids to steal and wash off in the creek.

When Ms. E gardens, it means potting soil, flowers and a few small vegetables planted around the edges of a tiny gravel trailer site. She is very happy but somehow I have trouble using the same word for it.

A lady spoke about the community garden plots available here in town. She suggested people share a plot with someone else. When I asked how big they were, she said 8' square. No thanks. Somehow, that wouldn't quite do it for me.

Oh my!!!! How I smiled when I see our new topic...I am just finishing up a Master Gardners Course in Ocala Florida....so wonderful for me as I knew nothing about gardning in Florida....very different than the mid west and Northern States..... The violets made me laugh too...I had them wild in my yard in Missouri and love them with a passion......You would not believe what I paid for four small plants to get a good start here.....I have them planted in a shady nook and care for them as though they are small babys.....The state of Florida has several different temperature zones and where I live is right on the edge of one.....you never know what may or may not work.....I cut a bouquet of roses this morning...tropicana, peace, and Mr. Lincoln...I am so excited about this new subject......Here is a wonderful book for you Garden lovers to read....."Cultivating Delight, A Natural History of My Garden" by Diane Ackerman......

My paternal grandfather was a potato farmer in Maine. After my grandmother died, he spent the winter months in Rhode Island with his youngest daughter and six months in Massachusetts with the aunt and uncle who raised me.

He had a garden about the size of Ben's in the back of my aunt's house where he grew corn, Kentucky Wonder and Lowe's Champion green beans, green peas, tomatoes, cucumbers, Hubbard and Summer squash, carrots, onions and green peppers among other things. We ate fresh vegetables during the summer from the minute the plants began to bear. In late August we began "putting up" vegetables to last us through the winter. We canned beans, corn and tomatoes, made pickles, piccalilli and New England style chili sauce, as well as canning peaches from the peach trees out back.

Before you got to Grandpa's vegetable garden there was a rock garden on a bank by the apple trees. Beyond that were the large annual and perennial beds and a bed where my aunt grew dahlias. A trellis with climbing roses was on one side of the annual bed.

There were currant bushes on the property, and we made currant jelly with those and strawberry jam from the strawberries we grew. It was a wonderful way to grow up, and during the summer we ate so much corn it came out of our ears. I used to go in Grandpa's garden, get an ear of corn and a tomato, and that was lunch, both eaten unwashed, raw and warm from the sun.

I always had a small garden wherever I lived, mostly flowers. My last real garden was a raised rose bed here in North Carolina. Because I am no longer able to garden, I grow roses and other flowers, including a lilac bush, in pots on the deck outside this small apartment.

Mal

After I was married I sorely missed home grown vegies. When we bough a house in '48 it was on a third of an acre in a countryfied subdivision called class b. No sidewalks etc. I finally had my vegetable garden and after four years of amending old clay soil over and over again with home made compost and purchased steer manure we finally had some pretty good vegies. I grew tomatoes, peppers four kinds,summer squash,winter squash, corn, my early peas were sown in the fall and came into fruit anywhere around april to may. I grew them over the whole garden area then when we stripped them we plowed under the vines for green manure and planted our May plantings. I never had success with the lettuces but had chard coming out my ears and beets too. Carrots not so hot in our soil. none of the root vegies did well except the beets. The zone I was in is called zone 9 in California. I had a huge strawberry patch but never had enough crop to sit down to a meal with them. The kids and birds got em before I could what there were. I had many varieties of tomatoes and to this day I cant stand old store hothouse tomatoes. Faith

Carolyn, your garden sounds lush and tropical; and I love the 'fruit salad plant' as it conjures up images of a plant growing many different kinds of fruit -although that probably is not the case.

Faith, I have to smile at your violets at the edge of the snow and how you delighted in finding them. The first flowers I find blooming in my gardens, back and front, are the little tricolour violas or Johhny-jump-ups and I will find them in the most unexpected spots.

Benjamin, your vegetable garden reminded me of my childhood for my parents would plant big vegetable gardens like that. And we kids took part in the hoeing and hand weeding, and later in the harvesting.

tigerliley, what kind of things do you learn in a Master Gardener Course?

Mal, it sounds like you have nice memories of your grandfather's garden. And it must smell lovely on your deck with the roses and lilac and other flowers sending their fragrances into the air.

I'll leave my own garden for another day...

Nellie as Master Gardners in training we learn a little about a lot of things....turf,pest ID, plant ID, growing citrus, vegetables, and flowers, landscaping, pest management, etc......the idea is to learn where and how to find information that the public needs.....we are an extension of the county extension agent. The idea is to disseminate the latest in good horticultural practice from research done at the University of Florida.. Most Master Gardners in this area volunteer a certain number of hours per month to answer questions from the public. There are monthly meetings and workshops to keep us up to snuff..... Its the best thing I have done for myself since retiring. Good exercise and good people to be around plus I am doing something I really really have a passion for.......I now have the time to do it right.....

On the subject of violets, we have them blooming in lots of places on the overgrown three quarters of an acre of wild, and I do mean wild gardens we have. I love them. What is amazing here right now though is that there are many oak trees on the property, some of them huge heritage oaks. Someone, probably fifty years ago, planted roses that have grown to the very tops of these trees. As is sit here, I can see out the window beautiful soft pink to white roses blooming in the oak trees. I am on the second floor so I am able to get a great view of them. They only bloom once a year and this is it! I am very excited about this discussion...have so much to say about gardening.

Paige where is it you are looking at the beautiful oaks and roses?

We had a huge garden gated off in the lower area of the pasture when I lived back on the farm. They used the horses to plow it up in the spring and grew all the usual veggies, including okra and all greens except collards. For some reason, no one grew collards in my area of TN and I never knew they existed until we moved to No. Carolina in the sixties. Loved them, and still do, when mixed with kale. We kids didn't have to help with it except to pick. We had to wash all those dozens and dozens of canning jars too because our hands were little enough to get inside and scrub them.

When we moved to the Oregon Coast (1978) I grew a garden of my own for the first time, corn, acorn and Hubbard squash, spinach, beans, just about anything you can mention- that's how enthusiastic I was! And I had beginner's luck, except the tomatoes wouldn't ripen, a disappointment, as I had envisioned a plot of fragrant, sun-ripened tomatoes. I ended up making a canner load of green tomato relish with them.

My Mom came to visit and was SO impressed, expecially with the squashes and leaf lettuces. She made a wilted lettuce salad that I loved all my growing-up years and still dream of. I can't make it to compare, even though she showed me how time and again. She wouldn't measure, just throw in this and that, and voila! I sure miss that salad. Haven't grown a garden in years, maybe someday when we settle down and stop gadding about every summer.

HighCedar....I'll bet that lettuce salad had sugar and hot bacon grease on it!!!! My mother used to make a dishpan full of that stuff and we would eat the entire thing....I bless my mother and dad.....they grew lovely big vegetable gardens and I learned at a young age to eat many and varied veggies...... I can still see us all out in the garden calling each other to look at this and that....I especially remember how beautiful the eggplant looked......

Nellie that first site that you have us link to is a wonder - I've been lost in it for two days now and still have not read the other sites.

I've been in a dilemma - for years I had a small vegtable garden and some flowers growing in the backyard - had a plot surrounded by railraod ties and even worked a small stone path down the middle that made it easier to weed - well for a couple of years ago it was all mowed over since my life changed and during that time the double door wood gate, which was about 25 years old, came off the attached wooden fence leaving the backyard open to the side of the house and on to the street. The up-shot is the deer have found my yard and each night for a couple of years now they leave their fawns in my yard over night while the adult deer go off grazing.

I love the deer - I love watching and severel times I stayed up all night watching what happened when the fawns were picked up - My delimma - they eat everything tied down or not and so except for a few large flower pots on the patio I have not been gardening. I even grew a couple of tomato plants in the flower pots - but I really would like to get into the ground again - there are a few flowering plants that the deer will not eat but there would be no hope for the vegtables - so do I have a new fence built where the old double gate was so I can garden which means keeping out the deer. hhhhhhh I don't know - just can't seem to decide.

My dad lived up in the Redwoods by Garborville CA and had a very large veg. garden. It was about an acre all fenced and the top of the eight foot fence bent inward for about a foot and had barbed wire up there. Deer did not jump that fence. Every thing smaller down the road they jumped. He had a water smstem on huge wheels that ran up and down the garden all the time. His wife, my stepmom, was a vigorus woman who did most of the gardening. Her harvest went into canning ,freezer and of course to eat and share and her brother had a little store out by the ocean so they sold some stuff out there. My dad fished all day and his freezer was full of fish from the ocean. He traded paint jobs for beef or lamb and so he lived on a very little bit for store bought food. He wanted to become truly self sufficient and was building slowly a solor and wind system for his power. I believe he wanted to be a pioneer. Faith

Tigerlily, I am in northern CA. I raised vegetable gardens for many years, especially when my children were small. I froze and canned things and made lots of jam for peanutbutter and jam sandwiches. It was a necessity in those days because money was short. What fun it all was though.

We bought this piece of property about 15 years ago because of the wild gardens. Gardening was my answer to middleage! Now that middle age has passed and year round allergies have arrived, it is difficult to even try to keep up with it all. Most of the soil here is very good and every seed that drops, grows. There is a constant battle with baby trees of oak, camphor, privet, silk, nut trees the squirrels plant everywhere and on and on. I like the idea of English cottage gardening with lots of flowers. I have been making an effort to plant more flowers. My youngest son, who lives in San Francisco, comes here and says, "Mom, it's so green."

Although I have not had a vegetable garden for several years, I do raise some raspberries for my granddaughter because my grandmother raised them for me. We have one apricot tree, an apple tree, an orange tree, three small lemon trees, a pomogrante, quince and four pineapple guava trees. Right now there is so much spring cleanup crying to be done!! Ooops, I almost forgot the cherry tree, the plum tree and the lowquat tree. You know, this is the first time I have ever listed the fruit trees and I'm amazed that there are so many. All but the apricot tree were here when we moved in.

Paige now in my old age my garden in front is about 8x10 and is mosty dianthus with three rose bushes and some beautiful rocks I have collected. Then a 8x18 patch of white rock with two hydrangias plandted sort of in the middle up to the Mullberry tree. From there back it is bare ground as the tree kills everything back there from shade. Across my back property I have a stip of yard that I had in vegetables for many years and now I just cant do the work any more so I am waiting to get enough money to plant a flowerer garden there, and I will put in like the front rock for ground cover and that is about all I can do. I sure wish I could continue my tomatoes and peppers at least. Maybe I can manage that much. There are a couple of patches of onions now ready to pull up and dry. Northern CA is great for gardens that is for sure. Faith

Faith you could buy two halves of a wine barrel and grow your tomatoes and peppers in that. Or we grew bell peppers in 10 pint buckets. One bucket to each plant. You have to make adequate drainage holes in it. I also have tomato plants in large pots. Two Pepper plants should be enough for one person and two tomato plants. Or two plants of the tiny tomatos and one of moneymaker or similar.

Carolyn

What marvelous posts.....all this gardning talk and the discriptions of your gardens just makes me so happy!! California is a great place for gardning and I believe the Master Gardner Program was born in that state.....I am in central, almost North central Florida and have a more tropical clime.....My tomatoe is thriving in a 5 gallon bucket, with the holes for drainage.....I have a nice little herb garden started with lots of scented geraniums around too.....I can see from my computer my climbing rose, Dream Weaver and it is lovely. I have a magnolia tree about to bloom and my crape myrtle tree is coming to life also.....What a glorious time of year.....

Faith, you wisely have things down to a manageable size. I don't know what I was thinking all those years ago when I had no allergies and lots of energy! I guess we think we will always go merrily along just like we are! You know, the violets we spoke of earlier may be a good ground cover for the area you have. They do spread along the ground, stay green all year and are so pretty when they bloom.

Wonderful posts everyone! I love reading about all your gardens that you have now and the memories of gardens that have been.

tigerliley, you have gained a lot of useful knowledge from that Master Gardening course -it sounds very rewarding.

Paige, your wild garden with all its fruit trees; and the climbing rose growing up the old oak trees sounds lovely.

Highcedar, when we first moved into this house in '82, my brother and I, the first thing I did was dig up half of the backyard and make a vegetable garden. But now the backyard is flowers and shrubs and ornamental grasses.

Barbara, I know the lady who started the Icangarden site, and we usually visit her lovely garden when the local garden society has its gardens tour -it is a great site with lots of information.

You have a real dilemma with those deer and wanting a garden too. Unfortunately I'm not an expert on deer, and can't be of much help.

Faith, I love dianthus and am always trying to put more into my front yard beds.

The weather was nice and warm today, and the snow melted off a good portion of the front and back yards. My front yard faces north so it takes a long time before the snow is finally gone because a good part of the yard is in shade in early Spring. Once the snow has melted there is a period of time when everything looks sad and bedraggled and bare. And the wait begins for the new growth to show itself. Of course there are the visits to the garden center for annuals to fill in empty spots and perennials to add to the collection.

And this year I have to see if all those Asiatic Lilies I planted last autumn will come up, and maybe bloom.

Barbara,

It IS a terrible delemma with deer, isn't it? If you could just put a little fence around your flower bed and leave the gate down, you would have the best of both worlds. It sounds like a lovely secret world having those little deer babies in your yard at night.

We have deer too, and have always enjoyed their wanderings through our property. Sometimes very early on summer mornings we see them, including the usually shy bucks, standing on their hind legs to nibble leaves off the apple trees. I have taken pictures of fawns eating dandelions in the front yard where it borders against the woods. When I began to grow flowers in beds and pots a few years ago, we had to close in an area in the front yard with cattle fencing panels to protect the plants. We built a patio and put in a fountain and the whole thing is very nice.

Two years ago I had to put my foot down with my husband about feeding them apples. They were becoming much too fearless, and would come and stand out in front of the house with expectant expressions. One, a little doe he called Nicki, was so trusting that she eventually learned to eat out of his hand. He thought this was wonderful and had me take many pictures and videos but then something frightening happened. One evening I went out with my little dog and Nicki was there with another doe and two fawns. When Katie ran at them and barked they all began to run, then Nicki turned back and tried to trample her. It gave Katie a terrible scare and just about gave me a heart attack.

Oops, this got a little OT and isn't much about gardening, but next time I will describe this years plantings in the patio garden. I have been working hard between rains to weed the beds and get the seeds planted, and the sunflowers and hollyhocks at the back of the beds are coming up. Maybe the rain hasn't wrecked the lilacs after all as some of them are starting to bloom.

Click the link below to see an AARP page full of links to web pages for gardeners.

LINKS TO PAGES ABOUT GARDENING

Hey, not after reading most of the early posts here! Wow, you folks really do it up right! Most of you would laugh to see what I call our back yard garden. Southern California is not noted for its oversized housing plots and ours is small even by those standards. To make matters more miniscule, half of our back yard is taken up with our added on family room. And the remaining half is two thirds in concrete patio . That doesn't leave much planting space, folks! But we try. Benjamin, I have 5 tomato plants growing on a strip of land on the family room wall and they do very nicely there with the help of some home-made compost. That is the extent of the veggies! We have a patio overhead that provides places for hanging pots; the front side is sunny for four different kinds of geraniums, some trailing and with different colors. The back side of the overhead provides shade for my passion for impatiens, mostly different colors of doubles and a couple of New Guinea Impatiens. On the patio floor are a variety of potted things, including 5 orchids that are tough enough to make it through chilly winters and are almost through blooming just now. The ground cover is mostly Nastursiums competing with a regular Snowball Hydrangia and a couple of Lacy Cap Hydrangias. Through all of this are several Gladiolas that manage to push their way through the throng, each time making me wish that I had dug them up and moved them. And a Day Lily or two And Calla lilys. And other stuff too.

Now if you have followed me this far, you will note that everything in our patio garden is there because it is easy to grow and is practically self sustaining. Lots of color and hardly any work . I water and occasionally feed or re-pot but mostly I admire! My garden is not a structured English style. It is more like "Topsy".. "It just growed" But I like it a lot. losalbern

losalbern .....I loved your discription of your garden that "just growed".....Hydrangeas are one of my favorite things......I planted some cuttings last fall that a neighbor gave me and they are looking very green and like they will want to grow....I just cut another arm full of roses......ummmmmm.....that smell.....I also have some native plants I am watching after, oak leaf hydrangea, fire bush, and golden dew drop.......Can hardly wait to see how they do this year...Malryn..thanks for the link.....I have bookmarked it.......

Losalbern and tigerlily, hydrangeas are one of my favorites too. I really like the lacecap ones mentioned. I have several hydrangeas and azaleas that my youngest son has given me for birthdays and Mother's Day through the years. I now have what I call "azalea walk" that has azaleas on each side of a path. They are not a plant I would have chosen because I like things with a scent. They do look beautiful in bloom right now though. My hydrangeas are just coming to life after winter...I need to prune them. My "to do list" wears me out just thinking about it! And it is warm here today, 87 degrees and it is only April, wow.

I saw a gardening show on HGTV this morning, and the lady in charge said that scented blooms don't last as long as unscented ones. The plant is putting a lot of its energy into creating the beautiful scent. Unscented ones don't have that energy expenditure and therefore the blooms last longer. The hybrids being developed usually have less (or no) scent.

Highcedar, I didn't that about scented plants. I do know that the newer roses have less scent than the very old ones. I have some that I ordered years ago that are from the 1800's. They do smell wonderful. Some of them only bloom once a year. Fits in with what you said, doesn't it?

Thanks for the link, Mal!

losalbern, a garden that just grows like Topsy is one of the best kinds.

Today I went out and weeded round the pots. I have now decided to get weedmat and put it down and sit all the pots on top.

Last year I grew two tiny lavendar bushes ( the large flowered variety) from cuttings. They are real bushes now and smell lovely. I grew them for the cost of the potting mix and in the store they are around $16 per plant for this variety.

The main annuals we grow here in winter are viola's and pansies. There are a few other cheerful flowers we can grow too. Of course lobelia and alyssum and Impatience flower all the year round also. I notice there are some bare spots in a lot of the pots now so a trip to the garden centre will be needed in the near future. Altho its autumn most of the herb annuals are still growing and some of the perennial herbs grow all year round. I still see some baby tomatos coming on so we will see how long they last this year. Capsicum still growing also.

The chinese berry bush has given me two baby shrubs in the rock garden so I will pot these up for presents. The birds do a good job helping to cultivate baby plants with their droppings! (The seeds are in the droppings)

I love working in the garden in winter as watering is minimal and the humidity is gone. Some days its just too humid in Auckland to work in the garden.

Carolyn

We have enjoyed one of those clay "strawberry pots" that have several little cups extruding out from the sides but after many years of use ours was ready for the trash. The clay had grown thin in spots and the top rim had all but disappeared. June asked me to get rid of it along with another aged item, a wooden tub of slats held together by metal bands. When I went to pick up the clay pot the bottom dropped out of it. Boy she was right! This thing was a goner! But the little cups were still intact. And then I had an idea. I reworked the wooden tub and put refurbished soil in it with lots of compost. Then I set the remnant clay pot, with no top or bottom into the wooden tub and filled it with refurbished soil. The next step was to go around the yard slipping plants, mostly double impatiens and a few other things into the little cups plus a newly purchased New Guinea Impatien right in the center. Boy, did that thing take off! Everything grew and I had a nifty, rather different looking attraction all Summer long! That was last year and I am trying to do it again this Spring. Just shows you what Nature can make out of trash! Is it any wonder that the promise of Spring is so important to so many of us?

What a neat idea for a planter.....I just came in from spraying roses for black spot, and have a nice little anise tree to plant later on in the day......My agapanthus have spikes up with buds on today I noticed.....funny how things seem to just spring up overnite.....also have a jasmine with buds on it.......

Herb planters. I have two very tall herb planters which my son rescued from one of his projects when the clients were going to throw them out. This year we grew tomatos in the top and alyssum and lobelia in the little cups. Practical and pretty! The year before we had petunias in the top of the planters.

Carolyn

Yesterday the wind was blowing here and some fruit trees that were in bloom plus some kind of vines different people have were falling apart and blowing in the wind at noon it looked like a snow storm for awhile. I went out this morning and mywalks were almost covered solid with petals and there was the smell of jasmine and something else very sweet and sugary smelling in the air. I washed the front walk and steps clean but will wait for my yard helper to come tomarrow to clean the rest of it up. I have a big usless patio on the west side of my house. It is cement with a 4 ft. solid aluminum fence around it and no cover. In hot weather you can't stand it out there. One year I planted some barrels and stuff and everything died from the heat. So I have that usless space in my yard. I hesitate to tear the fence down and put some kind of open work up (park requires fence at that place) so a breeze could get through but I have really waited to long. I dont know how much longer I can live here as it stands so keep procrastinaing.

My impatients are blooming wildly and beautifully. I need to put some out in the back strip soon. Since I cant handle a veg garden of any size anymore. Will put in a few tomatoes and peppers. That is all.

I will be back to just pots soon. Faith

I love reading about all your lovely gardens coming along so nicely. And here I am looking at a new pile of snow because I woke this morning to the results of a major snow storm. It is nice to know that in other parts of the world there are trees in bloom, flowers brighten things up, and vegetables are being planted.

Faith, have you thought of using the half barrels to make some small water gardens for that patio? Or is there a way you could stretch some shading material over it? Is it one single slab of cement or a bunch of cement blocks? -you can tell I like to do garden design, even if I am strictly an amateur.

Oh yes Nellie I have even tried those little snake shaped water sprizers..you hook up to the hose and turn on full blast but the thinga ma bob just sends a mist through the air. If a breeze is blowing it works..but I get no breeze since that whole thing is enclosed on one side by the house then two sides by a solid fence then the back of the carport with just a 3 foot side walk out of the patio to the carport. Why anyone built it with solid concret floor baffles me as when the sun is shining down from about 2 till sundown it is like a oven out there. I have tried to figure out putting an awning and making the fence open lattice work and that is what I would do if I had the money. Yes a garden designer would jackhammer that cement out of there and use wood deck or just the bare ground would be cooler. Faith

Faith half barrels make good veg gardens for tomatos peppers and silverbeet (like spinach sort of) if you have some silverbeet which is very high in iron you will never lack green veg vitamins. Good for those on a limited budget. I cook it by slicing finely and saute in olive oil and garlic just for few mins. You can use it in lasagne too. We have our vegs in amongst the flowers in pots. Does not look funny at all!

Carolyn

Carolyn I am ready to try the half barrels. I think my son said to put them on a set of rollers so they could be pushed into the sun when needed. That is part of my problem here. Too much sun on west side and none on north east or east as it is filled with trees. They should have planted the trees on the other side of my mobile home but I am stuck with this and will be here till I must move hopefully a long time from now. I have a patch of New Zealand spinich which seems to grown anywhere. It is very good a mostly dark green like spinich but small leaves and sort of greygreen on one side it makes pretty ground cover and I eat it twice a week after the tender new leaves sprout in spring and early summer. After washing well, I roll the leaves and cut them strips and par boil with a little salt and a little chopped onion or if I have none I just go plain with a touch of vinegar at the table. (that really good vinegar). Faith

Faith, I sure understand how hot that cement area must get in the heat of our valley summers. Our house has a lovely deck but it is built on the west side of the house on the second story. There are trees that shade part of it but it is usually too hot to use much in the summer.

Your hot patio problem has been on my mind. I have designed and redesigned the area. Lots of paper on the floor around my waste basket, LOL. I am emailing you, since my instructions for remedy would be long and boring for posting here.

Suffice to say, make lots of deviled eggs, jello salad and baked ham. Invite all your kids to come build!, after they have gone to the lumber yard for the supplies.

Your 75th birthday NEEDS a special celebration--no matter when it was.

HOWZAT

Well Howzat my kids probably will say Oh what a great idea and maybe when I am 80 I will see it...unless I find some old men to do it hehehehe. faith

The newly fallen snow is melting very slowly, but I can see bits of the front garden again, and the dianthus which always remain green even under the snow.

What new flowers are beginning to bloom in your garden?

The pansies are up in my garden. They are our winter bloomers. Of course all the summer flowers are still mostly blooming too including my day lilies. We have a very mild autumn and not a very cold winter here in New Zealand. In fact I will still be able to grow lettuce on the sunny sheltered side of my property in winter.

Carolyn

I left cold, damp Illinois 10 days ago and returned to a shaggy yard, dandelions galore, tulips and daffodils in bloom.

The rhubarb is needing picked and I'll try to get the first rhubarb pie baked today.

Azaleas, trumpet vine are all in bloom. The trumpet vine has outdone it's self this year. It is full of blossoms and and buds. The humming birds are a twitter.

Flowers make me feel good, but they must be plants and not cut flowers. I do like to take a flower or two in the house, but I hate store bought cut flowers. The just die and I hate watching them do it. (G)

African Violets are a favorite right now and are having most of my attention. Happy little plants.

Sage

A couple of months ago my son brought me some funny little bulbs and corms that he got CHEAP out of grab bin of garden dept. leftovers. Some of them were in a baggie with a crocus label. I planted them and watched these tall skinny leaves and stems come up- not like any crocus I'd ever seen. Soon a slender white bloom formed, and after a few days it opened, looking like a faded out wild iris. The next day it opened further and we could see beautiful frills forming along the edges and purple and yellow inside. By golly, it looks like that thing is a lovely orchid. Reminds me of the fairy tale about the ugly ducking becoming a swan.

Carolyn, your mild winters sound lovely with things still in bloom even in autumn. Our winter was actually quite mild compared what we have been used to having but there was still enough snowfall to cover the roots of my perennials and protect them from the worst of the cold.

Pat, rhubarb pie sounds yummy and I hope you will enjoy it. Tulips, daffodils, and dandelions seems a rather pretty combination -although I am not supposed to like dandelions, I do. It is too bad that they are such prolific spreaders.

Sage, I prefer plants with flowers also, instead of cut flowers. I love going out into the garden to look at them.

highcedar, what a lovely surprise. I wonder what kind of flower that is?

My azaleas have finished blooming and it all most to hot now for the pansys....I have roses and calla lily's blooming....caladiums are up, the magnolia tree is just ready to burst.....a jasmine bush which is loaded with buds.....nastursiamstoo..........

My greatest gardening failure is the Azalea plant. They all die. I lost one potted one last year and my last one is barely hanging on. The leaves look like an advertisement for "Ironrite" so bleak and yellow. Yet I have dosed the plant with liquid and pellet iron to no avail. In a day or two I plan on repotting the plant with soil that drains better and that will either kill it or save it. As a rule I have good luck with plants that other people discard as having seen better times. My son used to bring me plants from his office dumpster where the people who professionally care for the nice decorative plants just get rid of those on the wane and simply replace them . But Azaleas, no luck at all. I can't even tell a sun Azalea from a shade Azalea which no doubt is part of the problem. Any helpful hints? Losalbern

Wish I could help with the azalea problem....mine are all in the ground and seem to like dappled shade......I know that they require fertilization and lots of water.......I know nothing of the potted ones.......cut another bouqet of roses this morning......they are in one of their "flushes".....very beautiful things a rose....

It's 10 a.m. here and I've gotten my garden weeded and herbs planted and watered while it's still cool. And now I'm headed for my chair to recuperate. John built me a lovely raised bed a couple of years ago - it's about 4 x 16 feet - and that's about all I can manage to take care of (gardening is definitely not my strong point). I do like to use fresh herbs, though, and that bed is in the only place in our yard that gets full sun. We'll see how it does.

Mary

It was nice enough to be out in the garden and my mother did some clean-up of the plants in the back yard. While doing so,we discovered fresh, young new growth in the daylilies. It is lovely to see things beginning to grow.

Mary, I hope your bit of garden turns out.

I can't be much help with azalea problems either because only one kind grows in my area, and I had one and it didn't live long.

I hope everyone had a nice day in the garden...relaxing.

Nellie, I had to chuckle when I read what you wrote about a relaxing day in the garden. I was out in mine today being overwhelmed with the spring cleanup that needs to be done! We have far too much yard for us to keep up with I am afraid. Have tried gardeners for just some basic stuff but most won't take on 3/4 of an acre. I did have some for awhile but they couldn't tell the difference between plants and weeds...several times when I looked out the window... my herb garden was being eaten by a weed eater! The last straw was when they took my raspberries right down to the ground with that weed eater! I just wish I could keep up with it all, love to garden. I did manage to feed some of the roses today and deadhead last year's hydrangeas, before the new ones bloom!

IOSALBERN - I'm no great gardener, but did help put in some yards in the Seattle area years ago. Azaleas are like Rhododenrens, raspberries, and a lot of evergreens - they like an acid soil (if I am remembering right.) I would check with a local garden store to see if you have that sort of soil locally or not, and find out what you can add as acid for the plant if you don't. And they probably like water as long as they thrive in the Pacific Northwest.

Around here, azaleas and rhododendrons grow wild in the forests where there are lots of oak trees. I've not had lots of luck with store-bought azaleas (but I have a really brown thumb), but if possible, I would plant them near oak trees, and/or mulch them with oak leaves. As Benjamin says, they like acid soil.

Mary

Guess who told me about this delightful discussion? Well, it was BENJAMIN who I have known online for several years as someone who always has something interesting to share.

While I am truly a novice garderner who never acted on my gardening interest before, I went all out this year to make my yard beautiful. I began two summers ago placing five scalloped tree ringed circles of several sizes in my front and side yard. The master plan calls for an eventual water fountain in the largest circle and a minature lighthouse and windmill in each of two smaller circles. Until my pocketbook catches-up with my vision, I decided to dig-up all the grass-laden dirt in the circles this year, condition the soil with peat moss and compost and to place plants in all five circles. In order to change the name of my one-quarter acre "compound" to CLIFF'S PLANTATION, I planted eight tomato plants inconspiculously here and there. If I must say so , what a beautiful sight to behold!

It is every bit as eye catching as I had visualized - a reality not as usually imagined in my mind's eye. I have different colored geraniums, a variety of coleus, marigolds, solid and varigated colored petunias, sweet william, candytuft as well as several other perennials. While I have other plans for my outdoor decor, I'll have to see how my procrastination acts-up as it usually does after a spurt of energized inspiration.

Paige, the relaxing comes later in the summer in between bouts of weeding -I have an never-ending battle with tree seedlings-which is done a bit at a time. But in some way I find even working in the garden relaxing.

Those people with the weed-whackers called themselves gardeners?

Benjamin, thanks for the hint on acid soil for azaleas.

Hello Mary.

Cliff.S, welcome! And I like the sound of your marvelous garden. It will be interesting to hear if it will end up looking like your plans.

Speaking of tree seedlings, we have lots of gorgeous big squirrles in our park. I find pecan tree seedlings everywhere because they bring pecans that have fallen, from a yard a few blocks away and bury them for winter. Of course they grow. Suprise. There are orange trees all around too and they eat the oranges . the other day a big guy was sitting the mulberry outside my office window, in the crotch of two big limbs. He was upright and had split the orange very carefully, almost as if he had a knife, in half. One half he had resting beside him in the tree and the other he was eating as a child eats an orange out of the peeling by turning it sort of inside out, then eating the flesh out of the skin.. Every day I pick a bunch of empty orange skins on my side walk. The orange tree next door has very good sweet oranges so they come fromall over to eat. Then the blue Jays get mad and attack them, not yet but as soon as their nests are built. It is fun to watch all the small nature life in my yard. Faith

Faith, watching the wild life is fun. We have squirrels coming around. And today there was a large flock of cedar waxwings flying around -lovely sight.

If anyone is interested here are some pictures of my front yard:

my garden through the seasons

Every one should see your lovely garden Nellie. I just love the whole way you have it arranged. Where in the world are you that it is snowing. I thought you were in California somewhere. Don't remember why I thought that. Fr

Nellie, what a lovely yard! And NO grass to mow! Thanks for sharing your pictures.

Mary

Oh, oh, Nellie. Thank you for those pictures. I'll bet you can eat off your kitchen floors, too! What a neat, organized person you must be.

My place looks like Topsy, but I have azaleas (yes, yes, they like acid--just use a water soluble acid fertilizer, mix it up in a gallon milk jug and pour it on the roots)and hibiscus, iris, roses, jonquils, dianthus, and some others I can't remember the names of--those big lilly like things (on the end of a long stalk) that people buy in November for bloom at Christmas, such lovely reds and candy stripes. My cactus is blooming early. The peaches and pears and dogwoods have already bloomed. The wild flowers along the roads are just trying themselves. Oh, it's good to be alive.

Cliff, your project sounds wonderful. Don't you just love warm dirt?

HOWZAT

Cliff and Nellie.....wonderful....Jasmine bush is blooming this morning and what a heavenly smell!!!!!!

Does anybody know why "heliotrope" is called that? I know there is a color called heliotrope - was the flower named after the color, or vice versa? (It's one of the plants I planted in my garden on Sunday.)

Mary

no I don't know but it is suppose to smell heavenly.......gorgeous day here in Florida and my roses are blooming wildly......I have bouqets in every room......plus the neighbors are tired of me pushing roses on them.......

The park has planted camilla's and I see them out my window where I eat. But no azealeas. I love some of them but some have a very vibrant almost florescent look I do not like. I believe I will go and check the varieties and see what I can come up with. I like the light pink and the white very much. Have perfect dappled shade spot for them. Just finished washing the aphids off my roses, and watering the little garden that also has the rock garden unplanted as yet. Must do that this week.

Benjamin, I am certain that you hit it right on the button as to why my Azaleas have looked so puny! Yesterday I spent a couple of hours getting reverbished soil ready for a repotting of my last Azalea. By the time I finished, that soil looked really good. It included about 30% compost to which I added some sand and Perlite, Ironite and Osmocoat (sp?) Another hour to remove the Azalea ball and gently comb out the heavy clay to get rid of at least half of it then into the newly refubished soil and a light soaking of B1 to help overcome the root shock. I was satified that the plant would do much better now. Then I turned on the computer and went to this forum and read your posting about 'acid soil" and right away I knew you had the solution to my problem! Wow! Thank you Benjamin! But, I knew my new soil probably wasn't acid enough so what to do? This is gonna sound dumb! I took some leftover coffee and diluted it quite a bit and soaked the soil with it. Later on I talked to my neighbor who really knows gardening and he confirmed the fact that he uses a Miracle Grow acid fertilizer on several of his plants. I haven't the nerve as yet this pm to check of my poor ailing plant to see if it survived the coffee bath. I take some measure of satifaction in knowing that coffee may not have been an ideal solution but at least it was decaffinated! Oh my! Losalbern

Faith, I'm up in northern Alberta in Canada. There are days, like today, that I wonder if the perennials will ever start growing again. But they always do and by late July it will look like it is in the pictures again.

Interesting! I looked in my Guide to Gardening and it tells me that Heliotrope is also known as the 'cherry pie' plant because it smells like cherry pie. Does it?

Nellie I don't think helitrope smells like cherry's but some might. It may be called fruity, with vanilla and lavender undertones. I think the ancients had the fragrance of helitrope as soon as they had other "healing" plants as I have read it was a headache balm. Placed in a pouch and breathing the fragrance was the prescription. I have a lot of herb books and they are all up at my sisters and I must get them back as I am also putting some herbs in the yard this year if I can.

To day I got an estimate from the garden co. how much they would charge to rototill, add compost and fertilizer, plant some shrubs, put down the black paper that water goes through, and put mulch of some kind. The area is 5 feet wide and 40 ft. long and I already have a scolloped brick edging but need a little more of that. He gave me an excellent price so He will do it nest week and he will bring some shrubbery plants he recommends for back along the wire fence that will fill in and create a barrier so the dust from that big old parking lot back there will stay out of my yard. The paper keeps all the weeds down. To plant stuff you just cut an x then fold it back until your plant is well established then put in back and pull the mulch over it. I will be looking into some perinnial herbs like lavender for the ends as sort of a break. He is so good at design I will let him figure out where to put things but I will go buy them as his price didnt include plants except the fence barrier shrubs. faith on that. We would be able then

How very satisfying to be greeted here by old and new online friends. It's similiar to the satisfaction I experience when I look out on my lawn and see my newly planted flowers - still perky with the exception of one large coleus. Now, I must turn my attention to a fence along the side street. While I would prefer wrought iron, as a matter of economy and maintenance, I am having to settle on a vinyl (picket) fence. With twelve-foot high red tip bushes across the front and at one end of my lot, and a six-foot hedge across the back, there is only the road-side opening for a picturesque fence. Since other plans for my yard are tentative, I better contain my enthusiasm for now, since too many of my thinking projects never materialize.

NELLIE, your yard is perfectly beautiful. I can only imagine all the labors of love that went into making it so.

Cliff you sound like me, I plan and plan. I draw maps of my plans I calculate costs and shelve the plans. hahahah oh when I was working and had different ideas of what to spend on I sure wish I had looked into the future more. Maybe if I had made better plans at 50 I would have a better yard at 75 but then again maybe not. I feel lucky sometimes that I had sense enough to buy this mobile home and set a little cash aside because of the cheap rent the last few years I worked getting ready to retire. Faith

I find that planning garden projects is a most enjoyable thing to do; even when I don't end up doing what I have planned.

My garden entailed lots of drawing and measuring, and going out with measuring tape, string and stakes and staking everything out. Then the whole thing was drawn out in detail in scale, and someone was hired to lay the bricks. The neighbours came around at the time and said that the brickwork wouldn't last through the first winter -LOL I think some twelve years has proven them wrong, for not a brick is out of place.

Once the brickwork and the fence were in place, and the beds were prepared, my mother and I, with my brother driving for us, went to visit garden centers and nurseries and bought plants and more plants. On the west there is a big fir tree next door, which provides shade and makes it hard to grow things at that side; so I grow hostas and ostrich ferns and solomon's seal there. In the sunny places I have lots of dianthus, asiatic lilies, campanula, cerastium, phlox subulata, yarrow, artemisia, dahlias, daisies, yellow marguerites, ligularia, blanket flower, lavender, goatsbeard, astilbe, centaurea, and a few more I can't think of right now.

Last January, while chatting with our neighbor, my wife spotted an indoor shallow basket arrangement of plants that was being tossed into the trash. The arrangement, a Christmas decoration, had passed its prime and wasn't so attractive now. Lack of care had hastened its demise and now it was being cast aside. My wife asked if she could have the arrangement and was freely given it. She had an eye for the basket! And later, when I saw it, I asked for and was freely given all the sad looking plants. I was able to salvage four different varieties and separated them into different pots. A couple of plants were nothing but stems but with care and patience have finally begun to issued new leaves. But I don't have a clue yet as to what they are. One little plant looks like the leaf of a Wandering Jew plant but could be a Callisia. Another resembles a Caladium plant; hard to tell just yet. The big daddy of the group has big strapping leaves like the Rohdea plant. It seems to me, never having seen this group when they were prime, that mostly they are grouped together for their foliage rather than flowers. At any rate, they seem to appreciate the extra care and are trying their best to reciprocate. All I know is that I get a bigger kick out of this kind of gardening than I would an expensive trip to the Nursery. It must be the "Great Depression kid " complex shining through! losalbern

You are a plant doctor Losalbern, good for you. I can not grow indoor plants in this house I am in. The light is all wrong and I have not gotten any grow lights. They always die unless they are something that will grow in the yard. but then I had a bunch of potted crysanthemums too that my kids gave me and I planted them outdoors where they should have done wll and did not. I think I waited to long.

My sis is always bringing me cuttings and they die right away. She comes down from 2200 ft to sea level and gives me stuff from her yard and it wont grown down here.

I do well with nursery plants that are well established, that I put in the ground at the right time. faith

I think I was "swallowed" by my yard yesterday! I worked out there all day and didn't make much of a dent in all that needs to be done. Truly enjoyed myself though. I bought some plants that need to get planted but first I must clear weeds and volunteer trees, dig holes, go to the compost pile in order to amend the soil, takes a looooong time! I bought some bight red and some red and while striped petunias and put them in a strawberry pot. They are a bright spot on the front porch.

Paige I am going to do that with my strawberry pot. Do you have to take the old soil out and clean the pot first? I would think so. I am going up to Walmarts after while as they just got in a bunch of new little plants for garden and potting. I also have a big flower pot I need to get something for but it would old a variety of plants and I haven't planted it since a freeze a few years ago killed everything on my front steps and porch. I lost geraniums and birs of paradise, corn plants, a little tree I dont know the name of, and boston ferns, spider plants and of course all my flowers. I just piled the pots up in a corner and now my porch is a mess so I have that as a project I can do even with a bad back cause I can work up on the table. faith

Yes Faith, I did clean out the strawberry pot. Let me warn you, it takes a lot of soil to fill it up. I'm sorry to hear about all the plants you lost. I had a beautiful collection of different varities of geraniums several years ago. About 40 of them, all in pots and I lost them in a freeze. I havn't started the collection over. We had lived in a house prior to this one that had a pool and very little yard so that is why I had all those plants in pots in the first place. Good luck with your plans. Let us know what color you do your strawberry pot in!

We cut down the Miscanthus grass in the backyard to prepare for the new growth, and I will miss its golden presence. It surprised me last fall by blooming long after I thought it had gone dormant -lovely white plumes.

I've put in annuals to fill up empty spots and have found them all frozen by an unexpected frost. I have found that marigolds are the toughest plants and survive a frost or two quite well -they will be blackened and look terrible for a while, but keep growing and bounce right back. Other tender annuals will literally melt away after a frost.

I hope everyone has had a chance to spend a little time in the garden today!

After being hesitant with each purchase, I finally brought home fifty round stepping stones (red to match the brick in my house and the tree ring garden retaioners) yesterday and placed them close enough together so even a lady can easily walk gracefully from either the side yard or from the front yard to the main door.

I could have done with half as many stepping stones had I not wanted to put out two welcoming paths. The one now used is on the side street. I was tempted to make this path inaccessible by placing my soon-to-be fence clear across without any opening. It would make the challenge of installing a fence by two helpers less challenging, and the newly landscaped front entrance would have to be used. Perhaps, I simply like the idea of a more formal entrance.

The new entrance to my yard is nothing more than an opening in the red tips where a diseased bush was removed. (I am a firm believer in the adage, "if served a lemon make a lemonaide"). I placed a fancy metal arbor in the opening and cut back all the limbs so the leaves snug the sides and the oval top. It makes rather a dramatic appearance to my untrained eye.

Now, as resources become available, I shall add lawn accessories, and one of these days I can invite guests in for a leisurely afternoon and serve mint julips - either in name only or in the truest Southern tradition.

Cliff, your project sounds fabulous! I like it that you matched the stepping stones to the brick on your house. I especially like how you made something great because of a problem. Some of my best projects have come out of things like that. Sounds as if you surely did make lemonade!!!

The Past several weeks have not been good ones for me so I have missed coming here and enjoying a gardening discussion. I have been an avid gardener as long as I can remember.

I think it began with a VICTORY GARDEN my mother planted in our back yard during WWII...all the neighbors had one and we did too. It was not my first taste of fresh vegetables home grown as I had several relatives who were farmers and enjoyed the fruit of thier gardens not only when visiting but when they came to visit us.

Mother grew tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuce, carrots, even potatoes. So the first home we owned was in Tennessee with an acre of property. The area where the homes were located was farm land and I had a wonderful garden there. I did not grow any root vegetables since we had a septic tank and while I could plant away from ours the people above us ( we lived on a hillside) had a septic tank above that location. I did grow tomatoes, cucumbers, green peppers,peas,stringbeans and tried my hand at watermelon and cantaloupe which I do not remember as being too successful. And of course I also had flowers.

When we moved here to Virginia I used a half of our backyard and raised everything I could. I even grew corn and tried a lot of minature vegetables. My children loved the garden and I used what is called French intensive gardening. My husband bought 4x4's and we laid out the plots for the garden. He stacked them so the beds were 8 inches tall. Each bed was about 12x8 so I could work the plots easily. We had 8 plots and in them I grew just about everything a home garden should have. One bed was devoted to strawberries and the rest to a constant change of plants.

I used a plastic trellis in one bed and in February planted peas. I can still remember how good they tasted. The children would help extract the peas and I can tell you we would eat half of them fresh and each was like a drop of sweetness. I would put some lettuce in the kettle, well rinsed with the drops of water remaining and put the peas in the pot, cover and steam for about 4 minutes. Ah I can almost taste them.

I even grew asparagus and along the back fence I planted raspberry bushes. As the years passed though the trees on the property began to shade my garden so it became smaller and smaller and is now just cucumbers and tomatoes. The 4x4's were removed and the ground once again leveled. I do grow many flowers and enjoy them. Daffodils, tulips,Iris,day lilies and asiatic lilies give me a wonderful show each year and I now have so many I give bouquets away as well as enjoy in my home.

The asiatic lilies I planted four years ago and I didnt know they not only return each year but also multiply. The fifty I planted are now 75 and last year some of the three year old plants produced 15 blossoms on each stalk. This year the older stalks are a nearly 1 1/2 inch thick and I can remember the advertisement saying mature plants can have as many as 60 blossoms. The flower lady at church is invited over and allowed to cut whole stalks to use for Sundays. She will have a field day this year.

Some one gave me a hardy gardenia plant a few years ago and it was so successful I purchased another one and last year had over a 100 gardenias ..the bushes will have to be cut back after this years blooming since they are reaching 4+ feet and it looks as if I shall have more than a 100 blossoms this year.

When we moved here 30 years ago we put out two hydrangea bushes..which now number 12 and as soon as I can I will dig up some of the volunteer plants and place them in some other shady areas.

I do have roses but the large ones do not get enough sun to really thrive. I have about 8 minature rose bushes that have thrived and have grown at least 18-24 inches high. I cut them back early this year and they look wonderful and full of buds. I still have an apple and a plum tree in the front yard. Pear, peaches and cherries grew for awhile but eventually had to be cut down due to some sort of blight. A friend brought me a lilac plant from Iowa two years ago and it has grown well and this year I even had one blossom..small and delicate but oh my it smelled so wonderful. I am hoping next year it will give me a few more blooms.

I have a variety of indoor plants that thrive in winter in the sunroom and living room. My weeping figs have had to be cut back as they were reaching the ceiling in the living room. As soon as the weather warms and stays warm they are moved to the deck and in a shady area under some trees for the summer. Sometimes I repot them but in any case add at least two inches of fresh potting soil to the top and work them in. My 6'3" tall son moves them for me each year.As they have all grown so tall and large there are only a few I can move myself.

I stil have a four shelf plant stand where I grew many plants under lights for a number of years. One year I planted 50 gloxinia seeds and all of them came up! What a variety of color combinations! Everyone I knew recieved a plant that year. I grew many of my annuals from seed each year and kept a few when fall came for color. I had a modest success with orchids but either I didnt know how to grow them or they are hard to grow. Under the lights I also had one shelf of African violets that were wonderful But when my husband became ill I had to give away the plants I grew under lights although the stand is still in my bedroom...and I keep thinking I will use it again. On the other hand electricity is more costly than it was 30 years ago and I am not sure I could afford do it again.

I did have a garden window put in my kitchen 8 years ago and grow some small plants there ...

I am sorry this is so long but I have missed this discussion and have enjoyed reading all of the posts. I did forget to say my husband built me an attached greenhouse 25 years ago.. Two years ago I had to have it torn down as the wood was rotting and I could no longer afford to heat it. I did enjoy it for many years and especially in February when the orange and lemon trees were in bloom. How wonderful it was to work out there when it was cold and winter outdoors and my plants were rewarding me with spring inside.

God Bless all gardeners. anna I forgot to mention here in Virginia the azaleas are wonderful and they make each spring glorious.

Gotta say this before this closes down, and if it has been said, I apologize, am a bit behind, but it bears repeating!

Celebrity ALERT!!

NELLIE VROLYK'S GARDEN HAS BEEN ON CANADIAN TELEVISON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't that wonderful!!!

Congratulations, Nellie, and I understand it has recently been repeated, we know a celebrity, Folks!!

ginny

PAIGE, when I am unable to make a "lemonaide" out of a bad situation, I now know who I can call on. Come to think of it, I do have a problem that I have not been able to solve. Yesterday I glued one-sided flat green marbles at the highest points on the scalloped tree rings with the kind of glue that "one drop holds a ton". Since I was not confident the marbles would hold after watering or a rain, I only did one of five circles. Well, this morning, I learned my experiment had failed. With only a gentle rain, the marbles are loose without a hint of ever being attached to anything. Yet yesterday, they were secure. While I shall eventually go to LOWE'S with my query, I would appreciate any suggestion you or anyone else might offer.

ANNAFAIR, I thoroughly enjoyed reading about your gardening over the years. While I'll never live long enough to catch-up with your gardening memories, I have at last found something to focus on that I find completely relaxing.

NELLIE, congradulations! It must be very satisfying to be honored with a TV presentation of your garden and to be able to share its beauty with such a wide audience.

You might want to try a polyurethane glue. They are water proof and will bond virtually anything.

Elmers Glue has one which I purchased at Lowes:"PROBOND". It's action is accelerated by dampening the surfaces to by glued. Clamping or weights are strongly recommended, but the result is well worth the effort.The resulting bond is often stronger than the material being bonded.

Good luck.

Cliff, I don't know much about glue but I am fascinated with the fact that you are putting half marbles on tree rings! Your creativity is working overtime...good for you! When I'm in the garden, one thing always leads to another. I have far more ideas than I have time or energy to do.

Yesterday mom and I went out to a sale of garden ornaments at a discount store and bought colorful pots, and many cute little ornaments for the garden. It was fun. And in a couple of weeks we are going to get bedding plants and some new perennials.

Today is the last day of the gardening topic in this discussion. I want to thank you all for sharing your gardens with me. I wish I could visit each one.

For those who are interested you can find more gardening discussions in the Gardening Folder where I tend to hover about like some invisible butterfly.

GORMAN, thanks for the suggestion. I shall now go to LOWES like I know what I am talking about.
PAIGE, I'll keep you posted about the outcome. If I were to tell you where else I have used these marbles, you may think I have lost my "marbles' in the process.
I have enjoyed my visit here. I hope to meet all of you again at some other interesting discussion.

I shall miss this discussion, so enjoyable.....today I transplanted hostas and planted an anise tree......noticed some little gingers coming up which I had not seen before......happy gardning to you all....

I think I became interested in this subject when my neighbors two doors down from me, a retired couple who are also my friends had an unfortunate expierence about three years ago.

They were working out doors in their back yard which was visible from the street. Two ladies in a car drove up and one went to the front door opened it and walked in. In fact she walked right to the bedroom and stole some valuable jewelry and the husband's wallet.

When they discovered the missing items they called the police to discover they were not the first victims. It seems these two ladies drove slowly through some of the older and more established neighborhoods looking for seniors working outdoors. When they found them they would try the front doors which were usually unlocked and walk in and take whatever valuables they could find.

In my neighbors case another neighbor saw the whole thing but thought the lady was a friend ..after all she did walk in and while she could see the people working outside the neighbor who saw it all couldnt.

After their theft the local newspaper ran a story about the whole thing. The ladies were never caught and I suppose they are in some other area doing the same thing.

Why were seniors chosen? My personal opinion is because we grew up when people were more honest and we are more trusting. And perhaps our vision is not as good or our hearing. When the episode was published another lady in another area said she came in to find the one lady exiting from her bedroom area. The thief just smiled and apologized for being in the wrong house and departed. I guess the lady of the house felt lucky all she lost was some jewelry .

To top it off my nieghbors were working out in their yard the following year ..the front door was locked this time but the garage was open. This time no one saw the ladies but someone walked into the house from the garage and again robbed them.

They now have a security system and keep the doors locked when outside and use a key to enter. I do the same.

It seems each day there is an article in our local paper where some senior citizen has been the victim of some sort of scam.

I am looking forward to hearing what you have expierenced and to researching for ways to prevent being a victim of a scam.

anna

The key question to me was the one asking if I feel I am more likely to be scammed now that I am a senior. As long as I am not very senile yet, the answer is a big NO! I was much more gullible when I was a newlywed in my 20s than I am now, just like I was much more vunerable to viruses. Now that I have had most of them I rarely get sick and I rarely run into a scam that doesn't smell phoney to start with.

I have had an answering machine since '85 when my son was in the hospital and my aging parents were still alive. Now, its primary purpose is cutting out telemarketers. As for junk mail scams, I feel they are fairly easy to spot, though I did have an order which was never completely filled after I wrote, etc. But that is like dealing with a bad store - I just don't go back. I do buy quite a bit by mail or from the internet, but have had pretty good luck so far. I tend to deal mostly with companies which have been around awhile, whom I can call and get corrections made, return postage labels for unordered books, etc.

Maybe the idea that seniors are more gullible came when there were still many older widow ladies who had never managed their own money. As far as I can tell, their percent among those over 65 is getting pretty small. Most the older women I know have worked outside the home and know about as much about money as men do. (Of course, anyone losing touch from strokes or disease needs someone else to back them up or handle their money, but that is a whole different problem.)

I too feel perfectly capable of handling my affairs and try not to be taken. When I have need of repairs on my home I get advice from friends who have had similar needs. I get three estimates and I check with the better business bureau.

Still several years ago I needed a tree cut down. For some reason it died and I dont know about other areas but here in Virginia if you allow a dead tree to remain and it comes down in a storm and damages someones property you are liable.

So I did all of the above. The company I chose was represented by a young man ( by my standards

) We had a long conversation and he felt the tree was dead because of a lightning strike. He told me when he was up in the tree he could tell for sure and if so would write a statement so my insurance company would pay.

I was out grocery shopping one day and came home to find another man was doing the job. He drove a vehicle across my front yard, took down the chain link fence in the back, and had proceded to top the tree and cut a large portion of it and allowed it to fall. My back yard was a mess as the ground was soft from a recent rain.

To say I was upset is mild. I demanded he stop and explain what he was doing in my yard and where was the company I had signed the contract with.

It seems the company I signed with had recieved a large contract with a contruction company and sold my contract to this company. There was nothing on the front of the contract, which was a regular contract form, but on the back it gave the company on the front the right to sell the contract. Apparantly this is a legal right but one I wasnt aware of and of course I never read the back of the contract. I think I did turn it over but there was a lot of stuff there and the printing on the back was faint. I never noticed this right buried in the middle of other legal writings.

I did call the Better Business Bureau and was told it was legal for him to sell the contract and since my contract did not specify how the tree was to be removed ie by someone climbing it and carefully removing same I had no recourse. One thing I was able to do I had signed for two trees to be removed and told the man who had just taken the one tree down that I would not let him remove it and if he tried to do so ( and I think he was trying to intimidate this little senior lady) I would call the police and have him removed. As far as I was concerned he had trespassed on my property when I wasnt there ( I had no idea he was going to be there that day or I would have been at home)

I learned that even when you thnk you have made an intelligent decision and have followed all the rules ( and except for not throughly reading the back of the contract I felt I had done all of that) you can still find yourself unhappy with what happens.

I would also like to say women, even those who have worked and know how to handle money can run into trouble. After my husband died I had to have some work done on the car. I took it to a reputable place and paid a fair price for work that was not done correctly. The mechanic even left a tool on the engine. My son went to the shop to try and remedy the situation. It left a bitter taste in my mouth I can tell you.

Now I am very cautious about any repairs and if possible have one of my sons with me when I make arrangements for any repairs to the house or yard. My youngest daughter, who ran her own business, made arrangements with a landscaper to mow my yard one year so I didnt have to worry about it and she had to refuse to pay because they failed to live up to the contract.

I think it is just another kind of world out there than we are used to and BUYER BEWARE is really the creed of many companies.

Back later ...anna

Being the cynic that I am, I start by "trusting everyone but always counting the cards".To protect our interests, I assume that door to door peddlers need to be questioned rapidly and in detail. "Sorry not interested!" is the usual cut off in the first 30 seconds of their pitch. On the internet when checking email, I make liberal use of the Netscape filter and all "free" and "make money", etc subjects are immediately dumped in the trash. When using credit cards , among the usual brand I have found that one rsponds rapidly and effectively to vendors who do not deliver.I use it exclusively. any vendor who refuses the card does not make the sale-ever.

Phone calls that gratuously bring sale pitches are summarilly dealt with.I maintain at least two email addresses. One is reserved for contacts with people that I have not way of petigreeing. If contrators will not put caveats, agreed to, in writing, I refuse to deal with them -no matter how good the "deal" appears.

Credit cards from banks are run through the shredder immediately as are all receipts and prescription data ( such as invoices and shipping labels).

Once having set up these controls and protections, I have found that I can routinely deal with peddlers of all stripes ,while being polite but firm. And my life is not disrupted by continuing concerns from the scam artists.Life is too short to spend it attempting to deal with thieves! And I do not feel any social convention requires me to give consideration to those who would attempt to manipulate me.

There are so many ways to get rid of telemarketers.

1. Hang up! I know we were all raised to be polite, but as soon as I determine a caller is trying to sell me something, I firmly interrupt and say, "I never do business over the phone. Please take me off your calling list." Then I hang up without waiting for a reply.

2. Contact the Direct Marketing Association both for mail and for telephone calls. Ask that your name, address, and phone number(s) be taken off their lists. I did this about ten years ago, and have had no recurrence of mail and/or calls. I have the addresses somewhere, but can't find them right now. I'll post them when I do. There is probably a web site, too - and I'll look.

3. Check your state Consumer Affairs office (phone or internet) or your local TV consumer reporter. Many states now have a do-not-call list that telemarketers must honor or face stiff fines. Some listings are free (Tennessee for instance), and some charge a nominal annual fee (Georgia, I think).

4. Report any suspected scam to the Better Business Bureau.

5. On the SeniorNet discussion of scams, the Nigeria connection scam was mentioned. I've received that one twice by e-mail. I had heard about it years ago somewhere like "60 Minutes", so I knew exactly what it was. I immediately called the TV Consumer Reporter, and he came out to do an interview. He told me that I should report this to the Better Business Bureau, which I did. The BBB told me that they then turned this particular scam over to the Secret Service. I reported it the second time to the BBB, too.

6. Continued persistent telephone scams and/or marketers should be reported to your telephone company.

The main thing to remember with sales people is that you NEVER have to let them into your house - physically, by mail, by phone, or by computer. It's YOUR house, and there is no reason, courtesy or anything else, that makes it necessary that you allow such a violation.

Mary

Here is the Consumer Affairs page of the Direct Marketing Association. I don't know how to make a "clicking" link, so one of you more talented people can make it better.

http://www.the-dma.org/consumers/consumerassistance.html

Mary

Wow! it came up as a link. How'd I do that?

My wife and I have been victimized twice. Totally different modus operandi and both quite effective. Several years ago, we had requested our drains to be cleared by a company we had used several times and almost never using the same workman. He spotted my wife's purse and while neither of us were there, managed to remove four unused checks from the back of the pack, finished his job and left. A couple of days later my wife noticed the missing checks and we immediately called our bank. Two of the checks had been processed through the system each one for large sums of money. The remaining two were put on stop payments. The bank made good on the two checks they had run through the system, stating that was the cost of doing business with todays rapid processing systems. And of course, we set up a new checking account. We also notified the Sheriff and a Deputy took our statement. He called a few weeks later to say that they captured the guy during a burglary and he had blank checks on his person for 15 different people!

The second scam was just last year . I got a phone call from my credit card people who asked me what my last purchase was. The next question was , " had I recently purchased an airline ticket within the last two days?" And I had not. How about yesterday was the next question? Again, No! While we were talking, the credit card person noted on her screen that a new purchase was being processed and put the kibosh on that transaction. The Credit card people cancelled the card on the spot and took steps to issue us a new one. The two airline purchases were reverted back to the airlines for their handling. We had not lost either of our cards. How the thieves managed to bamboozle the airlines is a mystery to me. But apparently all phony purchases were made online.

Well I have been mostly lucky with mail order purchases and 1 or 2 on line purchases have been ok. I did fall for buying magazines from PCH over a period of years with the excuse that I wanted the magazines anyway.

My sis and her husband went to help establish home care for an aging aunt a few years ago. They found that she had over 100 mag. subscriptions but the worst part was she had box after box of merchandise from them including jewelry, household products, full sets of china, pots and pans etc which as an woman living in the same home for 70 years she already had well furnished. She had no idea that she had purchases thousands of dollars worth of junk in order to win that 10 Million Prize ....When they got a lawyer on it they found out they could do nothing except pay the bills (she owed for many of these purchases as she had become quite senile and could no longer figure out the bills)and have a yard sale.

It took them weeks to get her finances straighted out. She also had done some other things but that one got to me and I immediatly started throwing out PCH stuff. That was at least 10 years ago and I do not buy that way anymore and felt that any person including myself could get trapped like Auntie, especially if she began becoming senile before family realized it and stepped in. Fr.

I got caught by a scam, Here's my tale.

Some years ago I was driving home alone after spending most of the day visiting my hospitalized husband. I started for home while there was plenty of daylight for my drive. It was late afternoon in NYC. A fellow began running alongside of my car calling out, "Lady, lady, there's a nail in your tire! Your tire is going flat!

I pulled over to the curb. I was riding along NYC's prestigious Fifth Avenue near Central Park East on a sunny late afternoon with about a million people walking by, so I wasn't afraid. Looking at my tires, the helpful man knelt by my car and said to me, "Back up your car a little bit and the nail will be easier for you to see."

I rolled my car backwards a few inches, and got out of the car. Sure enough there was a long nail sticking out of my rear tire and I could hear the air hissing out of it. I didn't feel good about being stranded 40 miles away from my home in NJ. My husband was sick in the hospital, so he wasn't available to help me now that the car was having a problem. Also, I was getting a bit leery of the guy who had stopped me.

The man seemed to want to reassure me. "I'll fix your tire for you, lady," he tells me. "I'm an auto mechanic going off duty. I have the right tools with me."

Alarm bells began to ring for me, but that tire was getting flatter and flatter, and it was a long ride home to an empty house. "How much?" I asked.

"Sixty dollars," says the guy.

"I don't have that much on me," I say, shocked by the hefty price.

He shrugs. "It's a long wait for a tow," he says. "Maybe it'll be dark by the time you can get that tire fixed at a garage. I'll help you NOW. Remember, I'm an auto mechanic."

I hunted through my purse. "I'll give you $40.00," I tell him.

"OK," says the guy magnanimously. So I give him the $40.00, which is just about all of my supply of cash for the next few days. The guy immediately produces some tools and strips of rubber. He pulls the nail out of the tire, stuffs the hole with rubber, patches and inflates it.

"Ride around the block slowly," he instructs me, "so the rubber strip melts into the tire hole from the heat and friction of the road. Then I'll check to make sure the hole is really sealed." To my amazement, he's still waiting when I finish my round-the-block tour. He checks the tire. "We don't want you getting hurt by a bad tire," says my solicitous thief. He tells me the tire is perfect now, and, very much shaken, I start home.

On the Jersey Turnpike, I stop at a garage to have a mechanic look at the tire. The mechanic has heard of this particular scam and explains what has happened to me.

It was a known scam. The thief looks for a car with just ONE person in it. When the car pulls over to the curb, he places several nails in the gutter in BACK of the car and then instructs his victim to roll the car backwards, supposedly to get the tire to rotate to a point where the damage is visible. That's when the perfectly good tire gets pierced by the nails the thief has just placed in back of the tire.

It appears that MY thief had his own brand of ethics though. He repaired the tire carefully enough so I would get home safely that evening, but only AFTER extorting my money from me.

Honor among thieves?

Harriet

Well, I have at least learned to check out all virus alerts and anything that sounds like it might be a hoax, before I do anything drastic. My niece just deleted a utility file from her computer because she trusted a "virus alert".

I will be pleased to gather all the info. y'all can give me on scams; never know when one will come knocking at my door. Telephone scams I don't have to worry about so much; I don't do any business by telephone. It is a little scary to realize that I have given my credit card # out when making purchases thru' the Internet, but it's only been with recognized firms like Barnes & Noble. Considering the stories you hear about hackers being able to get anything from anywhere, one does get a bit paranoid. ..Babi

In this case I have a perfect answer which is true ..I tell them my hearing is impaired and I NEVER do business or make contributions over the phone. And I HANG up...since I have caller ID I check to see who is calling before picking up the phone..IF it is out of area or a blocked call I wont pick up the phone. I know if it is legitimate they will leave a message and I can call them back.

A few years ago I purchased a shredder and any mail or items that have my name or address I shred. I did this after visiting my daughter who lived at that time in Fredericksburg Va. She was leaving for work and I was watching from the an upstairs window. Her husband had put out the trash for pick up before he left for work and it was at the curb. Before she exited the garage a new Mercedes stopped in front of the garbage ( it was not in a container but in bags and boxes and some were not closed) and out of the car a very elegant lady emerged, dressed equisitly and began going through the trash looking for I believe anything that might have a credit card number on it. Just about that time the garage door went up and she jumped in her car and left. She didnt take anything with her so I suppose she didnt have time to really look.

I called my daughter at work and told her. I am not sure they took my advice but I told her to buy a shredder and use it. Since I have a garden I dont even put my shredded paper in the trash but instead use it as mulch around all of my plants. It helps keep the weeds down and composts well.

I shred any unsolicted material offering credit cards and checks. I never open mail that offers anything free or chances to win anything. Just shred it.

And years ago I had a credit card I had applied for with my local bank stolen from my mail. It is my belief to this day that is was stolen at the post office. I had a roadside mailbox and was home during the time it was mailed and always watched the postman put my mail in the box and retrieved it immediately. I found out it was stolen when the bank called to ask if I was enjoying using it. I told them I never recieved it was going to call them and ask why. Whoever had it ran up several hundred dollars worth of purchases ...They cancelled the card and issued me a new one.

And I also feel someone at the post office keeps track of mailings to my address. My young son corresponded with a young girl he met at a church camp years ago. She always address the envelope to Artie. In no time he was recieving all sorts of mail addressed to Artie. Now someone noticed that name and used it to give to mail solicitations. They were just very young teen agers and she would never have given his name to anyone. Now that I am writing this I wonder did someone go through my trash and found that name?

I have refused to accept packages that have arrived at my home I never ordered. I just write return to sender on it and give it back to my postman. I stopped giving money or writing checks to any organization that solicits at my door. AND I never send money to those who send me cards or other items suggesting I contribute to the organization. I donate the items to a local home for abused women, after carefully destroying anything that has my name on it.

I am not even sure what happens to supposedly recycled items left at my curb. We have recycled for a number of years now and they will take magazines or books if placed in a separate container. A few years ago my son in law who lives in Northern Virginia was at work and someone brought in some magazines they purchased at flea market. They were old Life magazines and one of them was mine! It had my mailing address on the front. So now I cut out or remove any mailing address before putting them into the recycling bin.

I have called and asked my name to be removed from unsolicited mailings and for awhile it seems to slow down or stop but then the mailbox is full again. My husband has been dead for 9 years and although I notified all the organizations of his death I still get mail addressed to him from them. I have even thought of forwarding them to Arlington. A few years ago a widowed friend came to visit for three months and she wrote bills and letters to her family and used my return address and I have even recieved jumk mail in her name.

Seems it is never ending doesnt it?

anna

In my mind, junk mail isn't as bad as the phone calls or in person salesmen. I have spent many years of my life living where shopping isn't always close, at least for many things, so I shopped Sears when they still had a catalog and now shop by mail and online. Junk mail burns pretty well most of the time and I don't feel it is rude because I can sort it and read it sitting down with my feet up. I do throw quite a bit away unopened right at the post office. If I toss a credit card offer, etc. while there, I tear through my name and address, then throw half in one garbage and half in another.

I love catalogs from knitting and crocheting supply companies because I can steal ideas for patterns from the pictures, so I tend to buy enough from those companies to keep the catalogs coming. I think Ms. E tends to do the same with garden catalogs. Life with no junk mail at all would be missing something. But I don't pay for things I didn't order and also don't have my phone number on my checks, so don't give that away when I do pay for something.

Hmm, you've given me something to think about, Anna. I don't read the unsolicited junk mail either, but I have been simply tearing it in two unopened. I live in a mobile home park, and we carry our bags of garbage and trash to a dumpster. I can't imagine anyone digging though that smelly dumpster in hopes of getting an address.

I chose to donate to a group that sends out greeting cards and address label. After a while, I was getting these solicitations so frequently I couldn't possibly use all the cards, etc. I wrote and asked them to stop sending this stuff, as I already had enough to last me the rest of my life. They didn't stop, of course, so their requests for funds started going into the trash. Not to mention the junk mail for the people I bought my home from seven years ago!

Also, at one time, I made donations to a Catholic group working in the Allegheny mountains, a very worthwhile ministry. Unforunately, my name and address promptly went to Catholic org. all over the world. I got solicitations for funds from places I never even heard of. As much as I may sympathize with the many needs, I can't begin to help so many. After the first two or three,I quit responding to any of these requests. Even though I have sent nothing for the past 2-3 years, I still get solicitations from them. I wish these solicitors would realize they are killing the goose! This doesn't really fall into the category of scams, but it can definitely be a danger to elderly people who are no longer capable of keeping track of their finances properly. They are moved to pity or sympathy by an appeal, and are not always able to judge when to say "NO!". ..Babi ...Babi

A P.S. to my previous note. On your question, Anna: "Do you feel you are more susceptible to scams now that you are a senior?" Actually, I don't. I feel I have attained to some degree of judgment and good instincts about people in all these years. I have found that inner alarm bells start going off when faced with a dubious situation, and I back away quickly and firmly. Of course, I have no guarantees that I have a lifetime warranty on this alarm system!

...Babi

Re unsolicited merchandise - cards, labels, whatever. You do NOT have to pay for anything that comes in the mail like that. Use it and enjoy it, or give it away, and shred the bills that come.

Mary

Many people are not familiar with the various services that advertise to ,"... find anyone, anywhere..." Their usual fess are just under $40

By providing the fee and minimal information (like an email address) the vendor will provide full name , address, telephone number and some employment history. These vendors also have access to current financial information. And they will provide it (IF the requestor pays a greater addditonal fee).It is illegal for them to provide that financial information unless the requestor can show that there is a legitimate interest (such as a legal debt owed and some action has been initiated to collect) However, many people will simply falisify that criteria and get the data ( in some circumstances, including the SS number of the target).

It is difficult to proscecute the vendor , because he/she claims they had no way to know that the claim was based on perjury.Some game , eh?

One would be wise to ensure that information which can lead to becoming a target of the vicious people (who routinely rip of any one available)is not available to dumpster divers and their ilk.

I was cynically amused by a passing comment on another forum where an observer commented, "I bet these people even have shredders in their homes!" ( I hope they do.

"Nothing personal , you understand, It's just business.

Gorman, Me, too...I have a shredder and some people look at me and roll their eyes when they see it. So...they can roll their eyes all they want, but I saw what a teaching colleague went through when her husband's identity was "stolen." I know it can still happen, even though I shred those endless offers of yet another credit card...or those *&^% blank checks they hope you'll use...or the checks from AT&T trying to lure me back..(fat chance after all the rip-offs they had on their long distance...pay too much and then pay if you didn't use their service enough!), etc.

I'm very protective of the money we worked so hard to save, and I'll do whatever I can to prevent scumbags from stealing it from me under whatever ruse they've come up with.

I don't have a shredder, but anything that has my info, or credit card applications, I burn in our trusty burning barrel. I've been doing that for years.

I still hear people say that they put their papers in the garbage, tied in garbage bags, and "no one would go through all that stuff looking for papers". Oh, yeah?

I don't feel I'm gullible at all. I wasn't when I was younger, and now that scams are everywhere, I remain suspiciuos until convinced otherwise. I used to try to be more courteous to telemarketers, but finally realized they weren't showing me the same...so now I just hang up on them.

Now, just how do you all think a scammer is going to make an easy living, if you don't be true to what is considered your senior status as being so naive as to be easily scammed? Moreover, most of you put me to shame when I compare the precautions I take compared to those I have read here. What's so complicated about some scams is some scammers don't even know the evil of their ways, and many of us are forgving to a fault. Before I relate two of my experiences, I want to tell you a story that illustrates how gullible (to use a milder opinion) many of us seniors can be. This is really being kind, because I think we all know it has a lot to do with an ageing brain. Some, like my mother, always remained mentally sharp, whereas others, including me at times, simply revert to our childhood innocence and think everyone is honest.

Recently a family friend said her (under 30) son was called for jury duty. Among the twelve jurors were six very senior ladies. A young man was being tried for burglary. There was a video tape of a hooded person of the young man's stature; his girlfriend turned state evidence and said she was with him at the time of the robbery; and he had a long history of various criminal convictions. The young man swore with upmost sincerity he was not guilty. When the trial ended and the jurors finally discussed the case, after a long day of taking hourly breaks to meet urgert personal needs, there was a sincere and polite but heated debate about the young man's guilt. Several of the senior ladies said, "BUT HE SAYS HE ISN'T GUILTY". I understand it took a lot of persuasion by the younger jurors to convince several of the senior ladies that the evidence was overwheming. Finally there was consensus and the young man was found guilty and sentenced to thirty-five years in prison.

Several years ago I converted my electirc water heater to gas. At the same time, I had plumbing done for a gas dryer. To make a long story short, this moonlighting plumber, so called first class by a fellow electrical craftsman who recommended him, was negligent about several significant aspects of the job, a couple of which I called to his attention along the way as I became knowledgable through friends . When the city inspector came, the entire job was turned down for not meeting city code requirements. I was out $1,000.00 and had to call in a reputable plumber to do the job at a cost of an additional $1,200.00.

The original plummer did have physical and mental issues because of an accident that left him unable to work for over a year. I do believe his chronic physical disability and obvisously a mental problem (looking back) must have contributed to his ignorance and poor workmanship. The pipes he installed, which had to be replaced, were so loose that a wrench was not even needed to loosen them. He even asked me one evening if I would like for him to pray with my ill mother and sister.

The second experience was clearly a scam. A man came up to me after I got out of my car in my driveway and asked me if I would like to have my trees trimmed. One word led to another and I agreed on a price to have three trees trimmed. Although he had his own tree trimmer with him, when he saw mine , he said he would prefer using it, since it was so much better than his. He worked dilligently for two hours, and I was really impressed. Finally, he borrowed my trimmer fo a job donw the street and said he had to go and would return the next day. He wondered, however, if I could pay him for the job since he needed to buy an airline ticket to go to his grandmother's funeral. Much to my sorry and ignorance, I relented and paid him. To this day he has not returned, either with my trimmer or to complete the job. Yet, I found out where he lived and hounded him several times. He gave me one promise and excuse after the other. Fortunately, I was out only a couple of hundred dollars and the trimmer this time.

Of course, scammers make it hard on the honest vendors. Now, while I always try to be polite, I make it clear and to the point that I don't buy from anyone for anything when it is unsolicited, either by phone, by door-to-door solicitation, or by someone passing by like the tree trimming scammer.

Cliff I have had wheelbarrows, garden tools, and a 12 ft extension ladder stolen by various people who were hired to do odd jobs in my yard. I did a really dumb thing once and a man came by and said he had just installed a roof coating (Snow Coat)down the street and he had enough material left over to do mine a a cut price if I wanted and it would save him time and money not to carry it home and have to clean up etc. etc...the usual speil and I let him do it. I started to write a check and he ask for cash. I refused saying I never had that kind of cash around and why didnt he tell me that first. He said Go get cash a check at the store, he would follow me down there ..(this before atm's) Well I did. Then I was mad as a wet hen as I found he took my extension ladder. I had written down the name and contractors lic. no. on his truck door. When I called about him there was no such company and no such lic. no. in California. They said his license no. was from some southern state and there had been a fleet of these same trucks around Sacramento for a week or two this particular spring fleecing mobile homeowners. I told them what I had paid for what size roof and it was almost double the going rate in town. That was a scam to end all scams. No way to find them either. Faith

Cliff, when I read about the gullible ladies you described on the jury panel, I had a vivid mental image. I would offer dollars to doughnuts that they have sons whose every word is taken as gospel, despite any evidence to the contrary.

On repairmen,..I had called a reputable (at least it used to be) company to work on my air conditioning. A guy came out, did some work, then said as long as he was there he would check the compressor in the attic as well. He went up, and I heard an awful lot of noise and banging around up there. It sounded more as if he were demolishing the equipment. A week later, I called the company back, as the original problem has not been solved. A different man came, and said that what I really needed was some procedure that I had already been warned was a big No-No leading to more trouble. I refused despite all his arguments. After finishing, he also said he would go up and look at the compressor. I told him it had been looked at just last week. He began insisting that he really ought to take another look, and right then I knew I had been had. The guy last week had almost certainly done damage to the compressor, which this guy would now "discover"! Repairman #2 persisted to the point that he was going to go up to the attic over my objections. At this point I threatened to call the police, and he left. I called another company, who confirmed that my compressor needed repair. Considering it's age and condition, it was decided that it would be wisest to go ahead and replace it. I had no way of proving what I believed had been done, so had to live with it. What I could do, tho', was to tell company #2 what I thought had occurred. I figured the word would get around, if it wasn't already known. And if anyone ever asked me about a good AC repair company, I steered them away #1. ..Babi

FAITH - The infamous Williams family used to pull the same scam with driveway "resurfacing" (escept they didn't steal ladders.) I wonder if they were the ones who caught you with the roof deal.

Ben I have no idea who the Williams family are but I saw a documentary on PBS about some people that make a fabulous living doing this roofing scam also black topping driveways with left over black top...Pouring a small patio with left over cement....etc. They had a name for this group of people I can not remember but when Andrew hit the south they packed everyone in town into trucks and went to scam the home owners that were left to be scammed. Now they were "General Contractors" doing insurance repairs and I understand they were caught doing some illigal stuff and stopped in Florida. Faith

Fortunately in New Zealand we do not have as many scamsters as you appear to have in the USA. However credit card fraud is on the rise. When my son went one day to a service station and used his credit card to purchase gas someone must have taken note of the number (an employee) the same day there was $2600 spent on the card all by telephone purchases. The bank was on to it and phoned the next day asking if Matthew had made all these purchases he said no and they immediately froze the card. There is a special unit at the bank looking out for fraud. Card Guard covers us for this sort of thing and my son was not liable for any of it.

Telemarketing - I never buy any service except carpet cleaning over the phone. I know the firms who regularly canvas for work. They are all reputable and payment is made after the job is done. I especially ignore the investment ones!

I am also tired of my privacy being invaded by people selling holidays, restaurant vouchers, pizza vouchers at my door usually at dinner time! If I wanted any of these things I would go out and get them myself.

These days our privacy is always being invaded.

Carolyn

I maintain two telephone lines. One is used for the computer dial up connection. The other is our private home phone.

Routinely, I provide my phone number as "unlisted" when ever any contact requests the listing. When the contacts insist on a number I give out the computer connection number. That line has an answering machine always online: when unsolicited vendors call the machine screens the calls and I routinely add those names to the email filter,(most times such contacts have proven to send spam susequently) It has screened out much of the spam that was routinely received , previously.

Of course,social/busineas/family contacts have all been provided with the first number and the answering machine takes care of the rest. Cost ? ~$20 US / month -which I have to pay in order not to have my phone and computer link in priority- conflict. Added expense ? None.

Have you noticed how many businesses and retail stores now ask you for all this personal information...your Ph.#, your birthdate, etc.....for their computer database? The first time it happened I asked the checker if he was going to refuse to sell me the item if I refused the information. He immediately assured me the information was not necessary. In other stores, however, I have been told that they "need" this informaion. It has become so prevalent that I am now giving them information that seems fairly 'public', but I'm still uncomfortable with it. Where do you think we should draw the line in this matter, and where can we complain about it? ...Babi

This is the very reason I do not charge anything anywhere and have not for many years. I closed all my store accounts. When they ask for personal information I say "I am sorry but I am paying cash and you do not need that information." They get my name. I have never had to walk out but if they did insist I would dump the merchadise and walk out. If it is a matter of delivery on a large item it is always from a store I am familiar with and I dont mind that much information as of course they need it to deliver.

Hi, Faith. I use my credit card only for major purchases or emergencies. Otherwise, it's pay as you go; I do use my direct debit card frequently. Of course, that still is no reason for them to ask for personal information. The object, no doubt, is to get me on their mailing list for promotions,sales,...ie., more junk mail. ..Babi

Well I consider the debit card as cash so that is included in the rejection of info . They can let me use the debit card, with no other info than my name or give up the sale. fr

We are all so careful about giving out any personal information and especially our social security numbers....Well, here in Alabama you are given a CHOICE as to whether or not to use your social security number on YOUR DRIVER'S LICENSE!! I was in shock when I applied for mine. Of course, I immediately said no, but in the meantime when I've talked to other people about it, they haven't realized just how serious it would be to lose your driver's license. The possible "crook" now has your name, address, DOB and social security number. In my opinion this is one of the most ridiculous questions I've ever been asked. I plan to contact the state to find out when this ridiculous practice can be stopped. Is it that way in any of your states?

Only recently has there been a choice here in Iowa about using your SS # on your Drivers License. Mine still has it. My SS # has been used for so many things over the years, I don't think I can close that flood gate now. It's on my college transcripts, drivers license, and a gazillion other places. For awhile, the gov. even had them on a website. That finally was corrected!

The Governor of Pennsylvania recently signed into law the “No Call” bill that was passed by the state legislature. This new law prevents Telemarketers from calling anyone in the state who does not wish to be annoyed by the Telemarketer. Each customer notifies the phone company of this and then the phone company sends the customer a form to sign to this effect. The phone company then prepares a list of names and sends the listed names to all known telemarketing companies. The telemarketing companies then must acknowledge that they have received this list and then they are forbidden by law to call anyone on that list. Even if the companies don’t acknowledge the receipt they are still forbidden by law to make calls to anyone named. The court will assume they have received the list. At this time the phone companies of Pennsylvania are in the process of mailing the forms to their customers.

Pennsylvania has joined several other states that have the “No Call” Law.

Bill H

A little more on telemarketing

Early last fall my phone company’s “Call Intercept” came to the Pittsburgh area. Call Intercept mandates that the caller must either give his name or phone number before the call can go through. You must have caller ID also. I signed up for this wonderful enhancement to my caller ID and I have never received another telemarketing call since early last fall and believe me I was really bothered by there computer calling. It costs me four dollars a month more on the phone bill, but well worth it.

Unsolicited Greeting Cards.

I don’t receive many of these anymore. You see, a return card accompanies these greeting cards asking for a favor of reply, so I write THANK YOU on the face of the card, put it in the return envelope and mail it back to them. Like I said, I don’t receive many of these anymore.

Shredders.

I bought a shredder shortly after the holiday season of 2001. The week after New Years day I put my rubbish out the night before my scheduled rubbish pick up for the next day. About 8 PM I looked out my front window and my two rubbish bags were gone! I couldn’t believe it! So I opened the front door to take a good look, sure enough they were gone.

I suppose who ever took them was looking for receipts and goodness knows what else. Boy were they in for a surprise because there was nothing in those two bags but plain old garbage. I wonder if they had fun looking through the garbage ) A short time later was when I bought my shredder. Now any receipts, old bank statements and the like go through the shredder before going into a rubbish bag. Overly cautious? Not after having two garbage bags stolen.

Bill H

I apologize for not being here as I planned...I dont know about where you live but we have had numerous thunderstorms since I last posted and with this changeable weather my sinus has really made a fuss so reading and going on my computer is plain painful.

It is interesting as much as we try to be careful there is always someone out there thinking of ways to circumvent us.

In our local paper we have had several seniors who paid upfront for work that was never done. Most of the people were trying to just be helpful when the man asked for the money since he gave a sob story for a reason. One lady felt it was her duty as a Christian to help others.

In my own mail in the past few days have been bills that were not really bills but advertisements for products ..they were written in such a way as to make you feel you had to pay them. Similar to the Publisher Clearing House ads that stated YOU ARE A WINNER. I can see anyone regardless of age might be taken in by this type of solicitation.

We have large garbage cans here that are picked up by a huge machine so it would be difficult for people to just look through garbage. BUT my brother who lives in California says people there go through the dump sites too, regardless of the offensive odor.

I have a web site for the State of Virginia for a place to tell someone about a scam or a problem with telemarketers. I would think each state has one and will look it up and post it next time.

We also have a television station here that does something called 10 on your side. If you have any problem with a company, with an apartment manager or even with officialdom they will investigate and put the whole thing on TV ...after all of the publicity the complaints are taken care of and then they do a story about the success of their investigation.

You are all so good to share your information and I appreciate that so much. My oldest daughter was scammed by one of the telemarketers for a long distance phone company ..I think it is called slamming. I dont remember which phone company it was but she has AT&T and the person wanted her to change to their company ..she said NO WAy and yet the next month she recieved a bill from the company the caller represented. She called AT&T and they told her what she had to do to take care of the problem. I think though there may be some people who would fail to notice the bill was from another company. She herself is legally blind and she has to use a magnifying glass to read her mail.

WHICH another thing that annoys me....small print on packages. Even when I could see well and I still see well some of the small print is so small NO ONE could read it.

By the way in the winter months I do burn all of the junk mail or anything with my name etc on it in my little stove. They are great to start a fire with.

I think I have always been careful and I still am even as a senior but I know there are people out there trying to think of ways to cheat me and I try to be cautious.

Some years ago I recieved an offer for a book free. If you liked it then they would send you a book a month and you could cancel any time. It was a gardening book and since I do a lot of that I said ok send me the free book. The second book came soon after and the third which I wasnt supposed to get unless I said so. I paid for them but in the next mail the rest of the set arrived. A box full..I asked me mailman about it and he said I could just write on the box return to sender and he would take it back to the post office. Which I did and after that I NEVER accepted any of the free books.

There is also a Federal address for any kind of fraud and I will find that for you ..but right now my sinus headache is giving me a fit..Bless you all for keeping this going with your sharing..anna

Bill, I liked your "Thank You" response to unordered stuff. I'll probably use that one next time around.

I ran into a interesting gambit from a very reputable magazine publisher. They have initiated a "service" to their subscribers. If the subscriber fails to renew gift subscriptions, this "service" assumes they have inadvertently overlooked it, and renews the gift subscriptions for them! And of course sends a bill. I got pretty hot about this, and wrote a sharp letter to the head of this so-called service. I will say they backed down, and I haven't gotten any more bills for gift subscriptions. ..Babi

Babi, I have oftened wondered how much legal weight those “assume you wanted it renewed” carries. You know, a car dealer could drive a new car to my home and say. “Well since you bought one from me last year, I assumed you wanted another one this year.” That’s a little far fetched I know. Just a little humor.

)

Bill H

It used to be that the phone marketeers would quickly hang up when a recorded voice came online but even that is beginning to change. Just last week we played back phone messages that gave us a regular marketing spiel just as though we had answered the phone. It occurred to me that perhaps the "phoner" may have been paid for completed calls only and this was his way of scaming the scammer. Anna, like you, I wait for a cool morning in the winter and burn up all my outmoded financial data in the fireplace. Its hard to scam ashes.

losalbern: I've also had calls that were recorded...so there was no way to interrupt the caller...and my line was tied up until the recorded call ended. I seem to get a number of political ones like this and they annoy me.

Sorry, I have been able only to read, sporadically, but not post - until now.

I can only echo your remarks on aggressive marketing.

I have an unlisted phone number, and it helps - a lot ! The few promotional calls I do get (when I am home) originate from my credit card company, and I end them fast. None such has ever been left on my answering machine, however.

AARP has repeatedly warned (in the Magazine and the Bulletin) against scams, and with good reason. Obviously too many of the elderly still take those tempting promises seriously. And my heart goes out to all those who are taken in on a daily basis and blindly believe. However, if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is !

Regarding one of the questions in the header : yes, I think the elderly are more vulnerable to aggressive marketing and attempted scams. But those techniques are not really new, are they ? When we had newly arrived in this country more than 45 years ago and were complete, ridiculous greenhorns it pains me to say, we came upon such techniques and learned from them - over time. And, truth to tell, we were disillusioned in the process.

And no, I do not think anyone could pull the wool over my eyes now; I try to be very careful and guard my privacy as much as I can. If that is considered paranoid, so be it !

Thank you for bringing this topic into view here; it is very much needed.

Bill, I am sure those "do it for you" renewals carry no legal weight whatsoever. If I didn't authorize it, I don't have to pay for it.

More than once I have written letters that included the phrase, "You know, and I know, that you can't...." whatever. With any problem, I have found that a letter clearly stating all the facts and firmly declining to accept whatever the other party is trying to foist on me, is generally effective. If indicated, I will also state my readiness to carry the argument to a higher level if necessary (including the District Attorney's office). ...Babi

It was sunny all morning but about 5 pm the clouds appeared and the temp started to drop and rain is in the forcast. We need the rain so I cant complain but...

Any way I used http://www.google.com and found over 18,000 sites regarding Senior Fraud which is what I used to find the sites mentioned.

I can give you web sites but you might want to check this out yourself.

I will share what happened to dear friend's 80 year old mother. She was shopping at a local grocery store and since she never locks her care she didnt this time either. She was a rather frail although spritely lady. While in the store she found herself in line and right behind her was a lady about 50 who struck up a conversation with her and since she had just a few items told my friends mother if she liked she would help her put her things in her car.

She seemed so nice and Hester's mother thanked her and said that would be nice. As soon as they were outdoors the lady asked where her car was and they went in that direction. As they approached the car the helpful lady said OH I see my friend is waiting for us in your car. Sure enough another lady was seated in the car and as they neared she got out and Said I have the most wonderful news for you...

It was the pigeon drop ploy. Now my friends mother knew it was a scam and said no she didnt want to take any of the money and they should keep it. Now the lady in the store took Hester's mom by the arm and said no we wouldnt think of it. Why dont you get in the car and I will drive you to the bank. ( as you can see this was a very well planned job) The woman was rather strong and the dear little lady so imtimidated she did as asked.

The lady from the store went inside with the victim and asked her to write a check for $1,000 for her to share in the "Found Money" She was so nervous her hand was shaking and the store lady took the pen from her to fill out the check...she also looked in her register to see how much she had in the bank..it was a little over 4,000 and she wrote the check for the whole amount and gave the pen to the victim to sign.

The criminal took the victim by the arm and took her to a teller who never even questioned if she really wanted to take all of that out.

They then drove her back to the store and left her and drove off in her own car.

It was several days later before she called her daughter in tears to tell her she had done something awful. It was really sad.

My friend and her sister went their mother and after hearing the story alerted the police and the FBI ..the band said they could do nothing since the mother had signed the check and except for taking her testimony and publishing the information in the newspapers nothing could be done.

Now I think I would have yelled at the bank and said call the cops..but then I am niether 80 or fragile ..and have learned not to be too polite but wonder if I could have coped with this myself.

For years I have left the amount I have in my account in my check books register blank ..I call my bank for that information and keep it on an account book in my home and since it is no longer required I dont put my SSN or my telephone number on my checks.

If there is a store that offers help with groceries that is where I shop and since I dont hear well I counter anyone who tries to be "nice" with the comment I am sorry but I cant understand you ..that usually stops any unwanted conversation and also draws attention to both of us.

After this event she had her daughters name put on the checks and after checking the amount she paid for utilities etc a stop payment on any check over the highest amount unless it was co signed by one of her daughters.

It was so devastating to this little lady she really went down hill after that and felt old. Up until this incident she was so spry and independent ...

Just thought I would share that ..and I think it was Andy Rooney on TV said he would use the postage paid by the company who sent it envelopes to put all sorts of things inside ...newspaper , odd bits of paper, ads etc and just drop it in the mail box taking out anything that had his name or information on it.. I have thought of doing that but havent had the courage...anyone want to try that? LOL

have a great day ...anna

Annafair - I have done that - sending stuff sent to us back to the company in their own postage-paid envelopes...did it for a long time, in fact. I think I finally stopped when we got curb-side recycling - and I figured the company just threw the stuff in the trash and it ended up in a landfill. At least, if I kept it, it went to be recycled (at least I hope it did). It's still a good idea, though!

Mary

Babi, I’m sure they don’t carry any legal weight.

More on Telemarketing phone calls.

Yes, I agree they can tie up the phone line till the message is completed on the answering machine, but just as bad is the computer telemarketing calling. Before I got Call Intercept, I used to get numerous calls for two or three days in a row and and when I answered I’d get a click hang up. This would go on and on for maybe a half hour at a time.

So I called the phone company and they explained the telemarketer would select an area for calling, feed the numbers to be called into the computer. Then the computer would start dialing these numbers automatically and when human voice contact was achieved the computer was programmed to hang up. “Why would this be” I asked the representative? She explained they wanted to find out the best hours of the day to call each individual. I found this to be very annoying.

All I can say is thank goodness for Call Intercept, since I’ve had it, I never get a telemarketer call. As I explained earlier, with Call Intercept the caller must show either name or phone number on your Caller ID or the call doesn’t go through. Telemarketers don’t want to do this )

Bill H

Anna, I have often wondered why these victims, when taken to the bank by the con artist, don’t say something to the bank teller. If they would just speak, the con artist would soon depart the bank with nothing but empty hands. Being of a very strong nature myself, I can’t see how a person can be so intimidated as to part with a sizable amount of money.

Many years ago I received a letter telling me that I had won a trip to Hawaii. I was given a toll free number to call so I thought “What the heck I’ll give a call.” even though I never participated in anything to win this trip. So I called and a young woman with a very pleasant voice told me that “yes indeed you have won the trip.”

Then came what I perceived to be the scam. She said, if you will send one-hundred dollars to us, we will make all arrangements for your trip. Alarm bells started going off. I said, I won a free trip to Hawaii and you want me to send you a hundred dollars. Then I started laughing. She gave some puny explanation and I kept on laughing. She hung up.

Maybe it was real, but I wasn’t about to send someone I didn’t know a hundred dollars )

Bill H

An e-mail acquaintance in the NY/NJ area sent me this scam notice. Naturally, this is just the place to post it. ..Babi

The latest ATM scam involves thieves putting a thin, clear, rigid plastic 'sleeve' into the ATM card slot. When you insert your card, the machine can't read the strip, so it keeps asking you to re-enter your PIN number.

Meanwhile, someone behind you watches as you tap in your number. Eventually you give up, thinking the machine has swallowed your card and you walk away. The thieves then remove the plastic sleeve complete with card, and empty your account. The way to avoid this is to run your finger along the card slot before you put your card in. The sleeve has a couple of tiny prongs that the thieves need to get the sleeve out of the slot, and you'll be able to feel them.

The police would like as many people as possible to be aware of this scam, so pass this on to your friends.

I THINK I would tell the teller or when inside the bank make a scene but who knows what you would do..and isnt it strange that it is mostly older women who are prey to this type of scam? We have had several males locally that were taken by the pigeon drop but the ladies are often like Hester's mom...very old and very fragile...and in this case they took over.. drove her car to the bank with out her telling where it was located and she told her daughters that the women were themselves taller and heavier and TOOK her by the arm and forcefully moved to the teller.

Newscasts are full of people who are killed by some sort of theif so I think it is easy to frighten these seniors. I have always thought if someone tried to hijack my car or threaten me while I was behind the wheel I would just drive it into the nearest parked car ...but would I really do that.

I think women are raised to be more polite ..or least my generation was...Perhaps there is part of our nature that thinks it is all a bad dream. And fear can make us weak ...

It seems a shame that as soon as we learn of something to avoid there is a new scam out there ...and even being careful is not always good enough...

It has stormed all evening big time and I thought it was safe to turn the computer on but I hear thunder so by bye ..anna

My days are busy and as soon as evening arrives so does the weather. Each time I am amazed by the ferocity of these storms. Wind whipping the trees and heavy thunder that frightens my dog , lightning that seems to unzip the clouds which pound my roof with HEAVY rain...I have spent some time this am researching to see if I could find something new. I beginning to believe there is nothing new under the sun.

I hope everyone has clicked on the sites provided to see what you can do to protect yourself.

One thing my daughter reported in one of her columns was a mail box scheme..they live in the country and most work and are away during the day ..they put mail in the box to be picked up and the red flaf to indicate it is there..The couple just above my daughter had checks written to companies to pay bills removed from their mail box and the the names and amounts altered to make them payable to the thief.

I know our local Sanitation department allows you to make a check out to HSRD..but if you are leaving space between the letters or not careful in writing then I think clever thieves can alter them.

My daughter said they were using something to remove the company;s name and a new name (thiers) entered instead. Although we have mail pickup at our house I always take important mail to the post office.

I will ask her today to tell me what happened again..I dont talk on the phone when it is storming out doors. Have any of you heard of this ?

We need to stay aware as possible but sometimes even when we do the crooks are clever and thinking of ways to make us part with our money...anna

One possible tool to assist is the use of auto payout from one's bank account ( such as paying utility bills). We do that for such as the gas company and my wife's long term care insurance premium ( they won't touch me for long term care

Like you , we always take important mail to the post office. . I note that gov't doesnot install the old cast iron corner boxes any longer. - some doubt in my mind if the subcontract carriers can be trained to get into a routine for emptying them regularly any way, unkind perhaps but....

One thing we must face: everything has a price . Convenience is sometimes very costly.

One little scam going on right now on many of us is from social security itself. Several years ago, when some alterations were made to social security, a law was squeezed in allowing them to just write the checks in whole dollar amounts instead of the cents. Now that would be OK, except I found out to my surprise, they don't round off, they truncate. In other words, If you are entitled to something and 99 cents, you get the something but not the cents. They don't ever round up. The excuse for doing this was it would be cheaper to write the checks, but I am sure most payments are sent directly to banks now (at a savings of $.34 each postage) so that is no longer an excuse. Guess how many folks get SS payments every month, then multiply that by $.50 and find out how much the government is bilking us out of - because each individual figures it is only $6 a year and not worth fighting about. There is no way this same government would put up with a bank who truncated amounts to cheat its clients.

'... a law was squeezed in allowing them to just write the checks in whole dollar amounts instead of the cents...."

'suggest that you find out which senators/reps initiated the change and remember at the next election.

Gorman and Ben I suspect it would take a lot of research and then perhaps we wouldnt know ..who thought of this ...I wonder would a request to AARP be helpful.

As a widow of a retired military man each month I am shortchanged. First I am entitled to my husbands SS he paid in for 30 years Then I am entitled to 55% of his retired pay that he payed on for 17 years but when I get my checks there are two all right but the amount of the SS is deducted from the amount of the annuity he paid for ..it is called an offset..now you check and see how many different accounts a senator or congressman can recieve ..it seems when they are making thier pay it is protected .. to be true my husband recieved both his retirement pay and SS while he was alive. Even if I were to just recieve a smaller amount of SS and the full amount of the annuity I would be so much better off.

So we know that it isnt just the corporate world that thinks of these clever ways to make it difficult for some seniors to survive.

I havent read anything new today about a scam but I bet tomorrow I will....they are so numerous they astound me...anna

Your response goes right to the purpose of my post. As long as one realizes that the games are perpetrated by the very people we continue to put into office, it will be seen that expecting any redress from them is naive.

Re new scam: a group of local high school students made the daily papers when a resident called the school to enquire if the door to door solicitation for donations toward a certain sport for the school was legitimate. The response from the school was, "We do not engage in any such solicitations, for any reason." Clearly the students are aware that the signs at every entrance to the subdivision ,"No soliciting". are there for the sole purpose of giving the home owners' association ( and its officers) legal protection , should some problem arise.

The really sad part is that except for the inquiry above , no one picked up the phone and called the police to act on the matter. ( "I don't want to get involved", comes to mind)

Except for Girl Scout cookies I wont buy anything from any group that comes to my front door. I have a sign on the door that says No Solicitations and merely point to that when asked to purchase something.

I have become annoyed with the many things the schools do try and sell for various activities. Since my grandchildren are in the schools I buy but I would prefer to just give a donation that went straight to the organization than buy candy or wrapping paper or whatever.

The PTA back in Nashville did something when trying to raise funds for some equipment ( which in my opinion was the responsibility of the school ) they had a no bake sale..Instead of baking something the parents were asked to just donate a dollar amount. In the beginning it was five dollars and later we were asked to donate ten. In any case I was always glad to give the money since that was tax deductible but any thing I baked was not nor can I deduct the cost of the wrapping paper or candy.

My dog does serve to keep some people away. She barks to let me know the doorbell rang...but she has a loud bark and sounds mean when she is just being thoughtful alerting me. However I have seen people back off and leave ..which was fine since I didnt intend to open the door anyway.

I am curious since the story about the students was in the paper someone must have reported it ..What did the police do???

I am remembering one of my brothers saying about elections ...your choice is often between two rascals. Now isnt that true?

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY to all who are mother's . anna

" ...I am curious since the story about the students was in the paper someone must have reported it ..What did the police do??? ..." In a word -nothing. I suspect that the report to the paper came from the subdivision's homeowners' activist group. A good thing in my opinion.

The police in this town are under stiff restraint from the town council to do nothing that will bring bad publicity on the town. They have carried that to the extent of releasing weekend police activity & arrest reports to the newspapers only on monday following. And then only through the "communications office of the PD. That function closed at 5p.m Friday night. Desk sergeants are prohibited from releasing "police blotter" information at any time. 'Couple years now of court brawls having produced no positive result.

This sensativity in a city that is under federal investigation for issuing loans( of $35K /applicant) and thereby being unable to account for >$800K of federal program money . BTW-no one is in jail non any indictment isued and only one loan has been repaid. 'difficult to get repayment when investigation discovered that some of the applicants' home addresses were non existant (when the application was approved).

I can remember growing up with the impression, not quite explicitly stated, that successful politicians were by definition understood to be short on honesty and integrity, since a man of honor and integrity didn't have a prayer of succeeding in politics.

That view has improved somewhat, as I now believe that many (some?) are doing their best to serve their constituency honorably. But even the best can only go so far without the mutual back-scratching of political cooperation. Politics is the art of compromise. (Don't remember who said that, but ain't it the truth!) ...Babi

Anna, I can sympathize with how you feel about being shortchanged each month. I feel the same way. As a federal retiree I’m entitled to receive my deceased wife’s social security income, however, there is a little thing called Government Pension Benefit Offset, which reduces spousal SS income benefits by two thirds of the retiree’s government annuity. Since I was in a high pay level, it’s needless to say this two thirds reduction brings her SS spousal benefit to zero. I really can’t complain, but there are some govenment retirees who could really us this extra income. All federal employees and office holders are subject to the GPO. Also this law applies to state, county and local government retirees as well.

This was done to protect SS and help protect it’s solvency. However, this law does not apply to anyone retired from the private sector and I imagine some are receiving rather healthy pensions from the firm they worked for. This is why many feel GPO to be an unfair law. There are bills in Congress now to reduce the GPO to one third reduction of annuity. This bill is intended to mostly help women, who, for the most part in years gone by, did not enjoy a high level pay status and for these women I hope GPO is repealed.

Bill H

I appreciate each post. This was something I felt would help us all. If nothing else give us information about scams and frauds we may some day face. How each has handled the ones they have faced gives us guidelines for our own lives.

I understand we will start a new discussion on Wednesday. As always I look forward to discussing in depth one of the problems or interests we share.

My thanks to each of you for your insight and help in keeping this discussion alive.

anna

Anna, I thank you for a very fine and informative discussion.

I read all the posts with great interest.The topic you chose and the replys should make Seniors as well as others to be wary of "To Good To Be True" scams.

Bill H

Anna, this has been a good discussion. I hope we have all learned something from this. I am always so distressed to hear of some older person who has been scammed - and my usual comment is - why, on earth, would he/she be so trusting?!? Anyhow, maybe we will all take some "smarts" away from this.

Thanks,

Mary

Welcome everyone. I’m on board again for the next two weeks

)

The topic will be Global Warming what it means and what can be done about this controversial issue. Please don’t miss out on the links I’ve provided in the heading they’ll take you to some very interesting and fascinating web sites. Speaking of the heading, I want to thank Pat W for creating this one.

All of us want to preserve a friendly environment for our children and grandchildren, but are we willing to pay the price. What are we willing to give up or do without? First let me say I’m not a tree hugger, however, I do realize steps must be taken to preserve the earth’s environment. The excess in which we indulge will not accomplish this. I’m eager to learn your thoughts and I’m sure they will make this a very lively discussion.

Anna, I hope this discussion is as interesting and stimulating as the one you have just had.

Bill H

The two obvious things us humans need to do are quit having so many kids and quit driving so many vehicles so many miles. Now most of us on this site have quit the former, though we may have done more than our share a few years back, but could we cut back or give up on the driving? And how big is that vehicle out front? Does everyone need a tank?

Personally, by choice, I sold my pickup after I quit farming and returned to school, about 1980, and have never owned a vehicle since. Is it harder to live without? Yes, but it has saved me a lot of gas money and unexpected expenses besides forcing me to walk a few miles every day, which I really need, especially now that I am no longer working hard.

I know there are many handicapped people on SN who depend on a car to even go to the store, but are there others who could learn to do with a lot less driving now that they no longer count on a vehicle to get to work?

Bill I think you have chosen a topic with far reaching effects and one that perhaps wont see a solution in our lifetime. By contrast mine was pretty simple...Having read your links and having been aware of the dispute as to the truth I am sure we are going to find the next two weeks exciting and informative. I am looking forward to hearing what other people think.

Ben well I havent given up my car but I have always tried to utilize the time I am driving. I plan ahead as far as I can my trips so when I am out I cover several needed tasks and not just use it if possible for one.

Although my neighbors I am know resent the fact my front lawn is not as full and green as thiers I am content to know whatever is coming up is green in summer when theirs is green and brown in winter.

I dont know the effect of fertilizing, over using our water supply to maintain a beautiful lawn, the use of gasoline powered equipment to mow, edge or weed but I feel it does contribute to wasteful use of natural resources.

We recycle in our city and I also maintain a compost pile in my back yard ( hidden by my fence) and compost all of my kitchen waste ( NO cooked foods or fat) all the lawn clippings and all of the leaves from fall. I then use it around my flowers and the few tomato and cucumber plants I have.

Where grass doesnt grow I have moss. I wait until I have a dishwasher full before running it. In winter I set my thermostat at 68 and in summer at 72. I am willing to conserve energy and any ideas someone is using will be considered

Do I think Global Warning is real and a threat? That is a hard question to answer. Having lived to see my 7th decade I have survived unusual weather patterns in various places on the globe. Unusual cold weather, the same with hot, droughts and flooding. The effect of the volcanic eruptions on Mt St Helen's in the USA and MT Pinatubo in the Phillipines. I can remember the sun light being dimmer after both because I dried my clothes outdoors. And scientists reported the truth of that observation.. We also had some extremely cold winters during that time frame.

What does that prove? Our climate is affected by what goes on. So I have to believe that we are affecting the temperatures and climate by our misuse of our resources. Frankly I find that frightening ..and cant understand why anyone would not be concerned and asking WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING? And why arent we doing something?

So I am looking forward to this discussion and everyone's in put.

anna

Both scientific sides of the Global Warming discussion have arguments that are supported by "facts", so at this point I'm not convinced by either side. But I'll be interested to hear what others think. My husband and I aren't "tree huggers" either but we do what we can to spare our fragile environment more harm.

Or did we? Benjamin thinks we had too many kids and I am inclined to agree every time I get on a Los Angeles freeway to go ANYWHERE! Everybody had too many kids and they all drive cars! But that is not the only situation leading to our overcrowded cities. When are we ever going to curtail legal and illegal immigration? That only leads to even more crowding where ever you turn. Too many people leads to too many human problems, sickness and family distress. More than our infrastructure and social structure can sucessfully handle. And then the system begins to fail here and there. Stress begins to play a heavy part in everyday living. Road Rage! Never heard of it 25 years ago! Its fairly common now with sometimes disastrous results. Freeway chases!! People trying to escape their problems only to make even more! Yes Benjamin, I guess we did have too many kids and my four make me a part of the problem but they turned out to be such fine people I would hate to think of which ones I would miss having the most! Yea, I surely hope that we aren't making too big a mess out of this great planet of ours! Losalbern

Working to preserve our environment is surely a good place to start. The things we do to hurt the earth will ultimately just hurt ourselves. The earth will continue - we just may not continue with her.

A good place to start is with the simple things - like those mentioned by Annafair - recycling, smart buying (buying things without excess packaging), taking your cloth bags to the grocery store, returning their plastic bags. Like you, we don't water or fertilize our yard - John says he's certainly not going to encourage the grass to grow so he has to mow it. He just mows whatever green it is that comes up. And we have some of the loveliest wildflowers (weeds) that come up first thing in the spring. We never let the water just run; wait until we have full loads to run the DW or the washing machine. I just got a new washer and got a front-loader, which uses even less water, and by spinning, makes the clothes need a shorter dryer time.

I, too, will be interested in hearing how this discussion progresses.

Mary

I recycle, etc, too, but I don't think that sort of environmental activity is going to help the problem of global warming. From what I read, it is the burning of fuels (incl. driving cars), esp. in production of all the goods and goodies we are apparently unwilling to give up.

1. The U.S. will not enter into an agreement to reduce greenhouse gas emissions that will be detrimental to the economy of the U.S.

Now this statement of the U.S.' position on the matter really floors me. What could possibly be more detrimental to the U.S. economy..not to mention the health and safety of it's citizens...than failing to reduce gas emissions? IMHO, too many companies started screaming at the idea of loss of profits, too many elected officials feared that voters would not tolerate reduction of their 'worldly goods'. So the government took the extremely short-sighted view quoted above. ...Babi

I began my "raised consciousness" re: the renewable earth in the 1970's when I read Rachel Carsons book. I immediatly saw that life could not continue if human beings didnt begin to change in their attitude towards consumption, and waste from consumption. It all boils down to that. Think it over..everything that gets manufactured has waste, then when it is shipped all the shipping material is waste, then at your home you use just parts of what you buy to consume and the rest is waste, and goes to the garbage dump and down the sewer. Eventually it all winds up in the earth, and the water system. You can not avoid it and all you can do is reduce consumption, and as Ben said first off CARS- FUEL-then of course population control.

The idea of global warming itself is complicated and I have read much about the weather patterns and how they changed the earth in the past and the effect this has on life. I just recently in Discovery Magazine have read about the little ice age we are entering into that may in fact be a precursor to the warm of the planet to tropical zones all the way to the artic. Not in our lifetime of course and what we can do about it in our own lifes is now on everyones minds. My city has recyle trucks and cans and everyother week they pick up 30 gals of plastic, alum. cans, and glass and I do seperate my garbage. I do all the suggested things for water conservation etc. as do all the people I know.

Now that the general public down to the smallest child is aware, there may be hope for this planet yet. Not that we will effect a change in the big weather patterns right away but we could effect a change in our health and our economy if we could find a renewable substitute for oil which is our big polluter and the base of our plastics problem. I could spout for hours but this is enough. I will be excited to see what others my age are reading about this problem.fr

When I moved to my present home 50 years ago, there were frogs hopping all over the place. I began to notice, some 20 years ago, that the frogs were disappearing. Today, I never see a single frog anywhere on my property, except a few tree frogs. It frightened me when I first began noticing this because I knew it had to be pesticides and herbicides that were killing them. I've never used these poisons myself, but other people use them and their damage spreads. When the frogs began disappearing, the bug population began increasing. My garden never used to be so damaged by bugs as it is now. It's a vicious circle. I still don't use pesticides, but others do; and the more bugs they have, the more pesticides they use. I'm wondering if people in other areas are seeing the disappearance of frogs?

Bill you have provided some excellent url links here and after reading them, there is little to add to this controversy. I "am" a tree hugger and I always have been since I was a child. I am a great recycle enthusiast and push my beliefs that each one of us can and should make a difference. The answer, I believe, lies within each and every individual to do his/her part.

Electric cars? How can we reuce the rate at which we add carbon dioxide to the atmosphere?

We will adjust but will the plants and animals adjust to the climate changes?

Frogs are disappearing at an alaming rate over much of the world according to a friend who studies that stuff and she takes courses at Davis in different aspects of zoology and biology. Not the only species that is going. There are others.

Electric cars may seem like an answer right now but for the stuff needed to make the batteries. I don't know what we can do as I know we wont return to horses.

Cows and beef cattle contribute more methane to the air than any cars do and they eat renewable feed. It is just that there are too many of them. Then humans eat them and contribute that waste and there are too many of them. It is a viscious circle. And the more you get into the subject the more you will want to ignore the big stuff and just continue doing your little thing inyour own yard. Like limiting any pesticides, and other poisons in the environment and recyling and praying your great grandchildren will have a life. FR

Welcome, Kippy and Shasta Sils happy you joined in.

Shasta I've been wondering where all the grasshoppers have gone.) I don't see them anymore

Bill H

I agree with all that was said about motor vehicles being one of the leading causes of air pollution. But what are we willing to give up. Surely not our hallowed SUVs and vans that we don’t really need. Surely not our snow mobiles, motor boats and recreational vehicles, heaven forbid these make for fun living.

I think the biggest waste of all is the SUV and van, in most cases they serve no better than a passenger car. My biggest complaint with the fore mentioned, besides the fuel they waste, is they block my view when I’m backing out of a parking space.

Losalbern mentions stress and Road Rage. I have never witnessed as much Road Rage as what is taking place here and now. I used to love driving, but now I find no pleasure in it. I was talking to a green-grocer about this and he said he sees rage and anger every day in the super market where he is employed. The reason he put forth: Most of the people he sees are working two jobs some even three. They are tired and trying to adhere to a schedule stress them out to a point where reason leaves them. All this so they can keep up with the neighbors.

Anna and Mary, I share your opinion about the chemicals that are poured on the lawns. I can smell the weed control chemical after it’s applied and I wonder what they are doing to my health. I’m sure I’m going to stop this practice after this year. I can’t keep up with the grass. Why make more work for myself

Babi, I’m not surprised at the position the government adopted on air pollution it’s all about money. I’ll be talking more about the Kyoto agreement that the US wouldn’t go along with.

Losalbern, you ask “When are we going to curtail legal and illegal immigration.” I know what you mean, however the problem is mainly with illegal immigration. The illegal immigrants work for change and no benefits whatsoever. This is a boon for whoever employs them. Im sure this is why the government tends to gloss over the problem.

Andrea, thanks for the compliment regarding the URL. I think some of the space graphics are great. But, please, don’t let the good links keep you from joining in. I meant for them to contribute dialogue to this discussion.

When I see the beautiful globe graphics that the links take us to, I think of the the picture of the American Indian sitting on his horse with a tear running down his cheek. What are we doing?

Bill H

I see more ads for electric cars, surely this will help the atmosphere. What about all the diesel trucks on the highway, surely these do more harm than cars. Have you ever driven behind a shool bus or a truck? It's awful. It hurts our lungs what does it do to the clean air. What about all the polution in our cities?

gailie R, if you are new to SeniorNet I bid you welcome.

Oh, you are so right about the trucks and buses. When you get behind one, you can see the black smoke belching out of the exhaust pipe.

Bill H

While it is seriously pouring rain and no let-up in sight, I sit in the corner of our Florida Room listening to the rain falling and beginning to flood up our back yard a bit. I am finishing the last 40 pages of what you might call a "doomsday" book which adds to my discomfort.

It is Heat by Arthur Herzog, published in 1977, and as up-to-date and scientifically accurate as it could have been written today.

The earth cannot take any more of our CO 2 gasses. Two scientists realize there really is some serious warming taking place and they band together with a few other scientists and, with the help of powerful computers working together, they plot out the future.

They try and tell others but they aren't believed and the major scientist is fired.

As people are today, they don't believe this can happen but when it begins people are in NYC and the weather gets really rough and crazy - a hurricane and a 2 tornados in one day. Then the heating up begins in earnest.

The scientist is called into Washington and is put in charge of the problems. He has a device built that will be sent up into the atmosphere and will deflect the sun so it will set the temperature on earth lower. If the device works, they will put many up there.

In the meantime, as this device is being made, it is getting warmer and warmer. There is no air conditioning, cars are allowed only on a very limited basis. No airplanes. No TV - just battery-operated radios. Women wash clothes by hand or do it communally at laudromats. Food is grown, tropical plants are growing in New York. There are tropical birds, brought in with the hurricanes.

The ideas I gleaned from this is, people aren't going to believe this global woarming thing until it happens. Then we will be flung back into colonial-like days. People will learn again to play cards together, help one another, work together, grow their own food.

As time goes on and they wait for more devices to be made and sent up, the earth will be heating up more, so when they have solved the problem the earth will look much like it did at the time of creation. Those surviving will begin anew.

What an interesting, thoughtful book!

It's a fast and very readable Primer on Global Warming, that's for sure.

Hairy....please send some rain up to Dunnellon......it has not rained here for at least a month.......

That book sounds interesting but some who are skeptics already will say well it is "ridiculous" to believe it could happen that fast! And truth to tell this century it has been happening gradually, as you can read in any of the information in the links above. And it is going to continue and will be a slow change. It wont just get hot and stay hot. Many things happen as the earth warms.It is just 1 degree overall warming in the last 100 years but that is already enough to change weather patterns. I found I cant discuss this with people even myfamily are divided. They agree with we (all) humans are greedy and wasteful. They need to be more active but they say they are too busy.???

It is more my grandchildren and their off spring that are suffering new virus', many more cases of asthma, allergies galore. In a family with no history of such things I have now got grandchildren and great grrand children suffering various of these new disease processes. And for the whole population of the usa I worry about cancer, but people still bury their head in the sand. fr

I never have used pesticides on the gardens I planted. I did buy ladybugs and praying mantis ..planted garlic and marigolds that do discourage some insects. A few years ago I found whenever I ate lettuce, something I enjoyed I started getting a reaction to the lettuce. There is no need to describe the affect but I can tell you in time it became immediate so I have given up lettuce.

I am convinced it is the pesticide used ...for I have a friend who grows lettuce without fertilizer and pesticide and I can eat it without problems. If I can obtain hydroponic lettuce grown without pesticides I can also eat that.

We were driving through Alabama one early summer and passing fields where the farmers were spraying something. We closed the windows and turned the air conditioner on with the air being recycled. I also used a handkerchief over my face because whatever they were spraying caused an allergic reaction. My throat became sore and and a bit swollen...I was hoarse for nearly a week and I have no idea what it was. Smelled like ...sorry but my mind wont come up with the answer this minute..gee it is almost on the tip of my tongue..but it is common to pesticides and I dont tolerate it. AH pyrtheum I think that is spelled correctly..

A friend years ago accidently chewed on an apple seed and ended up with some unusual symptoms ( cant tell you now because I dont rememeber) she finally saw a doctor who questioned her and did some research and found out the pesticide the apple farmers used was one she was highly allergic to.

By the way my compost is a great fertilizer.

To me one of the great mistakes was the decision ( and I know the profit line was the reason) to downsize public transportation. Thirty years ago when we moved to Virginia there was a two lane road to the area where we live. Now we have a six lane and they are making it wider, I have seen the forests decimated to make room for shopping centers. Why they are allowed to pave over everything instead of preserving some green space is beyond my understanding. The asphalt and cement heats up in summer and you can see the heat emanating from the surface. So in my mind not only do the cars add to the global warming the large areas of roadways do the same.

For years I was a girl scout leader and my main purpose was to show the girls how to survive. We made stoves out of large coffee cans and used corrugated paper wound tight into tuna cans and used old melted candles to fill them..You could boil coffee on them. I am glad I lived at time when my mother used what we had instead of buying something to do it for us.

When we have thunderstorms I not only cant use my comptur but I cant use my sewing machine since it is a computer too. I cant tell you how many times I wish I had my mothers old treadle..You could sew and exercise at the same time.

When people tell me God will destroy us I smile and say God doesnt have to worry ..We will save Him the effort and do it ourselves.

anna

When I talk about over population, I am always thinking about world population, not just one area of the USA.

What people do to the world isn't new. I have a persistant dream I believe is a genetic memory from the British Isles many years ago, but they are all covered by trees. Were they? Have all those trees been cut down by humans for heat or to make metals? I don't really know, but I'll bet many of our moors, deserts, etc. in this modern world were forested areas before people and their herds of tame livestock settled.

Yes, there are too many immigrants - legal and illegal - but they wouldn't leave their own countries in such numbers if there was still good land available to them. Man stays in one place to raise his family. If the area is productive, he has many children who then move on to other places. Each place he goes, he cuts the trees and clears the fields to plant more than he can eat - how else can he make a profit to buy consumer goods like vehicles or medical help, which keeps all his kids alive to child-bearing age and his old people alive many years longer? Of course, he wants these things - plenty of kids and good health. The problem is, he has always been a bit too successful, so now there are too many people for the world to absorb their damage. There is no more good land waiting for settlers. So we turn on each other, like all other overcrowded species. We develop new diseases very efficiently. But our genius brains keep finding cures and trying to get peace treaties which defeat nature's ordinary safeguards againt such a damaging specie.

I have voluntarily chosen to live without owning a vehicle and also without most other combustion engine devices, except for public transportation (which may smell worse sometimes, but simply doesn't waste as much fuel and heat as private pickups, etc.) But I had four kids, eight grandkids, and a couple of greats and have never considered avoiding doctors and medication just to die earlier.

I totally agree that there needs to be some sort of population control. In "olden times", wars and disease kept the population in check. Modern medicine has eliminated so many of the diseases that decimated large populations. Simple municipal cleanliness has done much the same thing. The cities of the Middle Ages were tightly packed with people who had no concept of public cleanliness, so any disease ran rampant, killing large numbers.

In regard to Ben's questions about the trees - I remember hearing that Ireland was heavily forested at one time (hence The Green Isle), and the trees were all logged off to feed the British shipbuilding industry in the sailing vessel days. Almost all the forests in the US are second and third growth due to early harvesting for ship and city building.

Mary

Some long time ago on these boards , a discussion was held regarding improving education. It ranged from the detailed cost/benefits to the social improvements, to the politics .The "killer question" was , What exactly did the participants propose in order to sustain their postions.The discussion died aborning.

Most (here and elsewhere) have suggestions that merit serious consideration. However,at the risk of becoming a resident cynic,it appears that the specific answers to the question are seldom thought through. Examples;

- transportation will not change in chararcter simply because it should. An examination of the make up of our legislatures will show that we keep seding people who have an agenda in conflict with theproposed program.Trade union support goes to he/she who will address the wishes of the uto makers and workers. How long did we maintain one of its strongest defenders in the chair of apowerful congressional committee?

- public power utilities are required by law to be closed from competition. When solutions where applied , they were created so carelessly that the clever and the ambitious did a number on us (again).

- population among our poorest continues to keep minorities down , so when the burden becomes a public scandal we subsidize the maintenace of housing , food and ( a pitiful level of ) inadaquate education , ensuring one more generation of sufferng.

-fuel supplies are known to be both inappropriate and (ultimately) inadaquate, so we ensure that technology will not be applied to improve the safety controls for nuclear power and that no program to replace fossil fuel use for electricity generation and public transportation.

- international cooperation for addressing world temperature rise is sobataged by our naive assumption that developing countries will pick up the burden of reducing waste heat production ( at the expense of their gross national product), while we declare that we will not engage in agreements which will damage our own.

I agree with most general suggestions made here and on other forums----- the question , I suggest, is

exactly what actions do proponents propose and exactly what discomforts do they propose to bear to get the program done?

If our thinking goes no depeeper than that of the education debate, why wate time? Our proposals will not address the world climate temperate rise problem.

Your posts are all so interesting I love reading them.

Tigerlily, I'd like to send you some of the rain we've been having in Pittsburgh area-trees down, flooding and the like. Can it all be blame on changes in atmospheric conditions.

Bill H

Some of Europe’s top scientists are alarmed about global warming and changes in the earth’s atmosphere. They contend the United States is the leading country in causing these problems.
Do you believe the President was right in not agreeing to the Kyoto Protocol? I would like to hear your thought on this?

Bill H

In line with my previous comments: No, I do not think the President made the right decision in regard to the Kyoto Protocol. As to whether the U.S. is the leading contributor to the problem, maybe so. Certainly we produce a lot of gases, but I can recall a few years back seeing an article and photographs of highly industrialized areas of Europe. No attempt was being made there to control the fumes being poured into the air, which was largely unbreathable. The population of such areas was markedly sickly and unhealthy.

On the population problem, does anyone else see the inconsistency of trying to "control" overpopulation, while at the same time supporting so-called "humane" medical policies that keep people artificially alive? Whether newborns, elderly, or just terminally ill, people who would, in the normal course of events, have failed to survive or died a natural death, are kept alive by our modern "medical miracles". We have outwitted Mother Nature; aren't we clever? ..Babi

In some of the poorer countries, any factory that provides a steady wage is welcome, regardless of how it pollutes. Getting rid of pollution is not very high priority when one is worrying where the next meal is coming from.

That doesn't excuse the wealthier countries.

Mary

To view the projected Kyoto Protocol Greenhouse gases by the year 2010 click Greenhouse Just place a dot in the circles on the left to view the different changes in the map.

But how are these changes going to be achieved without major alterations in our lifestyle

Bill H

Ben, my granson-inlaw is from England way north on the border with Scotland. He is a Landscape designer. He tells me that in England all the trees are planted trees. Natural forests are gone. Still he said, there are bountiful forests that are now maintained. I can not imagine this. I wondered if he is correct.

I for one think the President made a terrible mistake and I hope he can correct it re: the Kyota agreement. We must start somewhere and this is the best so far.

As I have said before we are not going to see the worst but our great grand children will. Faith

I'd think there are very few old growth forests anywhere in Europe. Most of them were logged off centuries ago, and what's there now is second or third growth forest.

Mary

Not only are there very few forests left in Europe, but acid rain and other pollutants are killing those off, too.

As for trees here in the States, I don't understand why we don't use Canadian trees for wood pulp. Wood pulp for paper products is the biggest enemy of trees. Canada is chock full of huge forests where the trees are growing too close together. Sure, these trees are spindly, their trunks not very large. But if there was a market for such trees for wood pulp, there would be financial incentive to cut half of them down so the others could grow to mature trees. A win, win situation. I suppose the wood cutters here in the States would be angry about that though.

HOWZAT

I belong to several organizations that have programs at each meeting. Some years ago I did one on trees. In my program I researched forests both here and abroad. In Europe all of the forests were indeed planted and had been for a number of years. If my memory is correct they chose trees that grew to maturity in a shorter time and they also cut some trees but only down to a certain level...there was a name for it but the result was the trees recovered and sent out new growth. I keep thinking the trees were ash. Also I believe my research revealed the forests in Smoky Mountains were one of the last forests in America that still had old trees and was nearly the same as it was 200 years ago. I also remember that acid rain was destroying some of that forest.

The housing area where I live still has 100 old trees. The developers maintained as many of the trees that were here as much as possible. Only clearing enough land to build houses and streets. It was an awarding winning area. Most of us who live here have kept the trees. Some neighbors have removed all of the old trees from thier property in order to have a green lawn. I do know the trees on my property keep my home cooler in summer. Enough so I can delay using air conditioning except in when the humidity and heat index are just unbearable. We had to have some of the trees removed ..and it was with a great deal of regret. We have always allowed voluntary trees to come up and grow so that in 30 years we have trees that have replaced the old ones we had to remove. I still have oaks and pines that are original and date back 100 years or more.

I grew up in a city and we had few trees on in our yard. The summers were hot but you know my memory of summers were special. Without airconditioning everyone sat on thier front porch in summer. We KNEW our neighbors. In the daytime mother kept the shades drawn to keep the house cooler...In summer the second story was too warm for sleeping so my parents placed quilts on the floors downstairs. They slept in the front room beneath the large window and my two younger brothers and myself slept on the front porch just on the other side.It was the milkman delivering milk each am that was our alarm clock and told us to go inside.

In spite of the heat, the humidity those are the memories I cherish and would give up air conditioning if we could return to that time in my life.

I have been sitting here thinking of the world's problems and how it could be resolved or at least diminished and you know I dont see it happening. I have lived long enough to see the profit mentality destroy a workable and useable public transportation system. Long enough to see people with money and power build castle like homes with all the amenities ...bowling alleys, movie theaters etc ...to see people who should know better build and promote gas guzzling vehicles and others who feel driving these vehicles is somehow prestigious.

The ostrich isnt the only animal who sticks his head in the sand to avoid dealing with danger.

anna

Thinking logically, I can not for the life of me see WHY governments do not get this. The debate is not that of global warming it's the details that everyone argues about. WHY? Co2 emission is absorbed, stored and sequestered into the trees and healthy forests thru the process of photosynthesis. (Basic sciene.) These forests are crucial to our ecosystem. Not only do they provide sources of food & clean drinking water but they provide millions of us with enjoyment in our recreational interests and benefit us spiritually by the peace and serenity that they offer. We are not gaining anything by deforestation, logging and arson to these lands, are we? The only thing that I can see to be argued for this clearing is for agriculture and housing purposes. Neither of which I agree with. It's easy to understand or I am missing something here? Clear the forests and the carbon is emitted back into the environment.

There is much good about trees but no one mentions the fact that one large tree consumes 100 gallons of water a day (according to our newspaper). For those of us that get our water from the aquifer, and not from surface rivers and the like, that's also something to think about. Of course, if elected officials were not so eager for "growth" and "development" that wouldn't matter so much. In the end it always come down to the fact that man is his own worst enemy.

There was no oxygen in our atmosphere untilmosses and such grew into leafy plants and eventually ferns grew into trees. As the plants grew the oxygen increased and other forms of life became bountiful, rising and falling in various hot and cold climatic conditions. With out trees, and other plants we lose our atmosphere. Global disaster is the end result of all this stuff. From what I have read the earth is very good at healing itself but cannot do so if the same poison is in the air and water as caused the problem in the first place. There is no doubt in my cynical mind that there will not be an earth filled with humans in two thousand years. There will be no people. Then perhaps the earth can heal again. Fr

Most of you have expressed belief they don‘t see a solution to this and I’m cynical enough to agree. I have been looking at the Kyoto Greenhouse map and I view the projected figures by the year 2010 with tongue in cheek I don’t foresee the drastic changes necessary to achieve the goal. . I say again, it’s all about money and convenience. Who will give this up? No one I know.

I learned something from you who explained about Europe’s trees and forests. I never gave much thought to that. It seems the European countries are more at fault than our country.

Anna’s post touched me because I remember my grandmother’s large house. You know I don’t remember any of us who lived there complaining about the heat in the hot summer. There was no a/c then so we just accepted the heat and lived with it.

have reading in newspapers and hearing on TV the present administration wants to start oil exploration in some of our national preserves ignored to reduce our dependence on foreign oil import. They claim only a small portion of these preserves would be used for drilling and wouldn’t deface the beauty or harm the wild life. But what’s that they say about once you get a foot in the door? How do most of you feel about oil exploration in our national preserves?

Bill H

Babi, thanks for telling me about this most interesting discussion. Nice to join a bunch of fellow cynics, although I wish it weren't that way.

Bill, you asked about oil exploration in our natural preserves. My feeling is that that is going the wrong direction. As long as we are oil-dependent, we will use up more and more, then need more and more exploration. Where would it end? Duh. We need environment-friendly alternatives. I've had the feeling through the years that the technology DOES exist for safe, clean, efficient and inexpensive transportation but that the oil companies squelch any such endeavors. I don't personally remember but have been told of the "red car", a trolley system in the earlier days of Los Angeles. Apparently it was terrific and everyone loved it. But, the oil companies managed to have the tracks taken out, sending everyone back into their autos.

I think we have to stop "letting" these things happen to us. Elected representation, sadly, is not the answer. I don't have the answer but I know it's time to start doing something. I'm fed up with being manipulated by pharmaceutical companies, oil companies, CEO's everywhere, etc. etc.

BOY it feels good to ventilate like this!

My only hope in all this is an observation I have made in studying history. Time and time again we have been faced with predictions of disaster of one kind or another, if mankind continued along such and such a road. The thing is, we didn't. There seems to be a sort of pendulum effect; we swing to one extreme, then swing away from it to a middle position, and off again to an opposite extreme. But we always seem to back away from the dangers before disaster hits. (Am I making sense at all?)

In this greenhouse/global warming mess, however, I admit we need to start "swinging back" from the extremes of consumerism PDQ. I, too, hope that our government will not only reconsider the Kyoto Protocol, but begin a strong mass-education campaign ASAP to explain to our nation what we need to do, and why. And then pass some laws banning the worst offenders. (Products I'm referring to here, not people!) ...Babi

Diane Church, welcome to the discussion and you can ventilate as much as you wish, Diane, I remember the "Red Car," although here in the Pittsburgh, PA area we called them "Street Cars" or Trolleys. Oh, how I loved them. And, since they ran on tracks, the ride was soooo smooth. I'm glad you jogged my mind of them. However, as the suburbs began to stretch further and further out, it become improbable to run the Trolley tracks to all the various communities that were developing so rapidly after WW2. Hence, the smoke belching buses

I share your opinion about oil exploration in our national preserves. Maybe environment friendly technology does exist, but you can be sure the big oil companies will, as you say, squelch it. The same as the tobacco companies kick in huge amounts for lobbyists and the like.

Bill H

Some day, not in my lifetime and probably not in yours either, our great nation will come to the realization that our scientific genius must be turned toward the solution of utilizing hydrogen as the world's major source of energy. I have no chemistry background so I have no idea as to how this will be accomplished but it will happen and when it does our planet will begin to turn away from dirty skies, dirty potable water, dirty and ailing oceans and be on the course of a cleaner, healthier world to live in. Mankind has made a mess of our environment and we are just beginning to pay the price for our short sightedness. If and when we are able to halt our dependency on oil, the world will begin to come off the critical list. As a side issue, one of the major benefits to the U.S. is that we will no longer be held hostage or be compelled to coordinate our foreign polices to those held by mideast "friends", rich in oil reserves. But first, our nation needs to become hydrogen oriented and thinking in that direction. I don't see that happening right now!

There is something in the ocean that also creates oxygen for our planet. I think it is the plankton.

We enjoy our air conditioning during the hot summer, 'tho we keep the thermostat up and supplement with ceiling fans on low. I've always lived in a hot and humid summer environment. I remember the floor fans and all the windows open and even sleeping on the porch because of the heat. Now I would be afraid to open all the windows. I miss the fact that we weren't afraid to have all our windows open at night.

I saw on TV the other night about a car that's been developed that runs on a combination of hydrogen and batteries, I think. The bugs are being worked out. The problem with the newly developed cars (there are several electric cars) is the price. Most people can't afford them.

Bill,

thank you for introducing this serious, vitally important topic into our conversation here.

Referring to earlier comments here, I believe it is lamentable that the U.S., the only remaining superpower, has seen fit NOT to participate in the Kyoto Convention. It may turn out to have been a grave mistake.

One of the closing paragraphs of the Kyoto Protocol states :

" In facing up to man-made climate change, human beings are going to have to think in terms of decades and centuries. The job is just beginning. Many of the effects of climate shifts will not be apparent for two or three generations. In the future, everyone may be hearing about - and living with - this problem." from "Conclusion : The 21st century and beyond."

But -- haven't we noticed dramatic, uncharacteristically severe changes in our weather patterns already these last few years ?

We don't talk much about greenhouse gases these days; and that widening hole in the ozone layer hasn't been written or talked about much either for some time. Instead, the automobile companies are manufacturing ever larger SUVs, more gas guzzlers, and we are exhorted to hurry out and buy them, lest we appear unpatriotic. Who wants to hear about conservation ? Few people want to think about it.

That the president champions drilling for more oil is understandable, He is an oilman after all. Even so, we should actively, persistently develop alternate sources of energy, like wind, and solar power. A few years ago homeowners in this state were given tax credits for installing solar panels on their houses -- not any more.

Many easy-to-do, simple, common-sense but wise means of conservation have been mentioned here. They may SEEM to be small, but they could add up and make a big difference overall. For we cannot afford to turn a deaf ear to and blithely ignore a problem the rest of the world is fully aware of; we cannot wash our hands of the whole business, because we are proportionally the largest energy consumer in the world. We are not alone on this planet, we share it, and we will ultimately share its fate too. Or our grandchildren will. My heart aches for mine.

TIME magazine has an article about hybrid cars, I have to go check it.

Thank you all.

Kippy therein lies the problem..We are no longer safe doing that ..We keep the A/C on because we are afraid to have our windows and doors open.

I live in a two story house an almost never open the windows on the first floor. Sometimes in the sunroom where we really live since it has a dining table and a TV ( although when all of the children were at home we ate in the dining room) but I do open the windows on the second floor and rely on my dog to alert me if there is any reason for me to be concerned. I also use ceiling fans on low and have one fan on a stand.It is in another room and moves air to where I sleep.

Except in the very hot and humid weather I prefer the fresh air. Sometimes I will be rewarded with the fragrance from flowers in the garden..I love to feel real air and it is bliss to smell the air after a rain. My husband always took any suggestion I made as something he must do for me.SO I have two skylights upstairs..one over my bed and the other is now over where I have my computer (used to be a quiet place for reading) and I can hear the rain and see the lightning ...and from a little screened area off the bedroom I have added glass windows and that puts me right among the trees.

My hope is we will be moved to do something and not rely on a disaster to make us. anna

During the California energy crisis last summer, it was noted that if everyone on the West coast would change over to those neon? bulbs (I don't know the name of them, but they are funny looking, futuristic sort of things with a regular screw type end that fits into all our sockets) that so much energy would be saved that there would hardly be a crisis at all. These bulbs are expensive, and you need to carefully read the "lumens" information on the package so you will buy the right size for the job you want to do. I am thinking of changing over my whole house. One problem, some fixtures do not have enough clearance for these new type bulbs.

HOWZAT

Huge icebergs breaking off of glaciers may be a huge warning that Global Warming is in effect now.

Your story about your house and sleeping on the porch - I felt you describing our house when I was a kid. I wish we had thought of sleeping on the porch like that. I remember how hot it was upstairs in my bedroom. Sure brings back memories of my favorite house though.

Trude, I am another who has noticed definite changes in our local weather patterns over the past decade. With the increase in industrialization over the past 50 years, the greenhouse effect must be proceeding at a faster rate than it did in the past. The melting ice at the poles, with huge New Jersey-sized chunks of ice breaking off, would definitely seem to indicate that the problem is with us now. The most extreme results will not be evident for many years to come, but by then the damage will be done.

I was pleased to hear of the development of a nitrogen and batteries driven car. New inventions are always expensive, of course, but if the bugs are worked out and the car could be put into mass production, the price would drop steadily.

We can pretty well depend on it, tho', that the maker of traditional fuel burning cars, and the fuel companies themselves, will be offering every enducement to the builders to stop production, as well as lobbying the government to protect them from it's potential effects. So...what can we do to help see that this type of car is allowed free-market development? Before we start writing our senators, we need to have accurate information and all the available facts. Where can we find out more about this car? ....Babi

Our former president had his UN Ambassador sign the Kyoto Treaty which made the signature symbolic and not legally binding. He didn't present it to the Senate for ratification because the votes were not there and still aren't. I read that most of the senators believe the treaty would hurt their constituants and cause a lost of jobs, etc., and that it doesn't treat our country fairly.

For those of you interested in reading about the hydrogen hybrid car, there's an interesting article at the following URL. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/10/1016_TVhypercar.html

Traude, thank you for posting one of the closing paragraphs of the Kyoto Protocol It mentions the 21st century and beyond. I would like to believe there is a beyond the 21st Century.

Kippy, I appreciate your link for the hydrogen hybrid car. National Geographic always gives us interesting reading.

Bill H

Hairy mentioned Plankton as possibly helping with the solution. I found this about it on the Internet.Phytoplankton

Phytoplankton are single-cell plants. They are the 'vegetation' of the ocean. The cells contain chlorophyll, and through photosynthesis, the sun's energy is harnessed to enable them to change inorganic carbon into organic carbon. This puts carbon, one of life's building blocks, into the ocean food web. They live in the Photic Zone of the ocean, with a maximum concentration of cells at the thermocline-pycnocline, where the temperature, light and nutrient conditions best suit plant growth.

If you would like view them clck Plankton

Perhaps something this minute may be the answer.

Bill H

Oh Kippy, what a service you have done for me! It turns out that in my earlier posting, in my ignorance, I chose the wrong element to wax elegantly about. But you got me onto the right track with your link to the article in the National Geographic regarding the Hypercar. And from there, the further link to the National Hydrogen Association's home page for several articles about those people working the problem of making Hydrogen the energy source of the future. Thank your for your efforts. And as it turns out, there is some progress being made in that direction but there needs to be government financing to help industry switch over from oil dependency. Lots of bucks involved here. Coupled with that could be oil people's reticence to downgrade that industry.

The climate where I live has definately changed my daughter came back recently and lives only 5 mins from me. She says its definately much hotter than when she was a child.

We are lucky here in that you cannot just cut down a tree. You have to have a permit. If you have a very large tree permits are needed also for topping. If we did not have so many trees here I am sure there would be smog in our city. Our air is not clean as we have a bad public transport system and there are too many cars. However there are too many high school students driving to school when they could walk. Its not unsafe in numbers. I can understand parents of little ones not wanting them to walk.

I don't use sprays and I am glad I don't. A friend persuaded me to use a rose spray and I was very ill for a week as I am allergic to some of the ingredients and did not know it. I have a compromised immune system. It was a frightening experience. A toxicologist told me I was having neurological spasms. People are so set on having unnatural looking lawns they spray weeds, use fertilisers rake all the leaves when in nature the leaves will nourish the garden and lawns if left to rot. Perfect lawns are a human invention nothing to do with nature.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I also wonder about these pesticides and other chemicals used on the lawns and gardens of our communities. They are being used in large quantities and I believe these chemicals are bound to have an ill effect on our immune systems.

Bill H

Some readers have posted concern of over world population. I did a little research on the web about the population or birth control China has for slowing the growth of it’s population. The following is excertps taken from a BBC News report. Wednesday, 28 March, 2001, 06:25 GMT 07:25 UK China's population growth 'slowing'

”Since the late 1970s China has restricted urban couples and many rural families to just one child to reduce the strain on food production and other resources.
Hidden children
Counting China's massive population is extremely difficult, made only more so by its one child policy, as tens of millions of people with extra children are thought to have hidden them from the census takers for fear of being punished.
Female foetuses aborted
China's age-old preference for boys is being exacerbated, both by the one child policy and by modern technology, which can detect the sex of a child early in pregnancy. Such technology has led to a massive growth in the abortion of female foetuses.”

In an unrelated article found on the web I read this.

”By 2005, China aims to keep its population within 1.33 billion (excluding the population of the Hong Kong and Macao special administrative regions and Taiwan Province), and the figure will be controlled within 1.4 billion by 2010, and will peak at nearly 1.6 billion at the middle of next century.” I find these population figures to be mind boggling.

If you would like to view an animated graph showing the anticipated slowing of the growth of China’s population, plese click here.

Chart

There are links on the left of this chart you may find usefull. I'll see if I can find something similar for the US.

Bill H

From the earliest records, the Chinese have consistantly been 20% of the world's population. There are many who believe China's government is too harsh in their efforts to control population growth, but the effect of unrestricted growth is far reaching, not only to China but the world at large. War, pestilence, starvation are all real possibilities when peoples overgrow any given area.

Production of food, the availibility of sufficient water, must be kept in balance with populations. China has huge problems. People are migrating from the country side to the cities looking for work, and not finding it are turning to criminal activities for survival. The type of government aside, I hope China is up to finding solutions quickly. We all should be concerned.

HOWZAT

HOWZAT, Tom Clancy gives a good account of the harshness of China's population control in his "Bear and the Dragon" novel.This is fiction, of course, but it gives pause for thought.

BillH

And here is the pyramid population chart for the United States. Pyramid

If you visit this site, please click on Animation’s for some real treats! Don't miss out on the Charlie Chaplan clickable )

By the way our population clock shows 287,080,971 in the United States.

Bill H

Bill, Thanks for the Pyramid site. As my youngest daughter would say--- "cool"!

I was most impressed with the description of the Hydrocar. I fervently hope they can get it on-line by 2005. The first cars will of course be expensive, but the price should drop if people accept and buy them. Since the big auto-makers are also going to be building hydro-cars, we can expect they will not make attempts to block it. The steel industry, however, is another matter. They are selling a lot of steel for the production of today's cars, and they will not be happy to lose any of that market. ..Babi

Babi, the hydro car would be a huge step in the right direction, but it stretches my imagination to think how long it would take the entire world to accept them, if they are ever accepted. Do we have that long.

Bill H

As promised, I checked TIME and found the original detailed article in the is", written by Anita Hamilton. What I saw in the past week's issue came at the end of the Letters to the Editor column and was reader reaction to that article.

This is the opening paragraph of the article : "We expect our movie stars to drive sleek, high-end automobiles. So why have Cameron Diaz's Porsche and Mercedes been gathering dust in her garage for the past four months ? Because these days the stylish actress tools around Tinseltown in a $20,000 Toyota Prius - a hybrid car that swings both ways, alternately guzzling climate-heating gasoline and sipping environmentally friendly electricity. What the car lacks in class it makes up in fuel savings and reduced emissions.--- Bill Maher, host of Politically Incorrect also drives a hybrid ar. So does Seinfeld cretor Larry David. Leonardo Dicaprio likes his hybrid so much that he bought three more, for his mom, dad and stepmom. ---

If celebrity endorsements sold cars, hybrids would be flying off dealers' lots. But with their odd-ball designs - critics dubbed them "clown cars" - the first generaion of hybrids barely dented the consciousness of car-buying Americans. According to one survey most Americans still think the batteries in hybrids have to be plugged in to get recharged. (Wrong. They are rejuiced automatically as you drive.) No wonder only 20,000 of the 17 million automobiles sold in the U.S. last year were hybrids.

But now the auto industry wants to take another crack at it. A hybrid version of the Honda Civic, the best-selling compact car in America, started rolling into dealerships nationwide last week. Next year Ford, which has produced a string of electric cars, is expected to be the first U.S. manufacturer to introduce a hybrid vehicle. I took the politically correct version of the six-cylinder Escape for an exclusive spin earlier this month. Meanwhile, Toyota, General Motors and Chrysler have all promised a new crop of hybrid vehicles by 2004. J.D. Power & Associates, which tracks consumer tastes for the auto industry, expects that, by 2006, American consumers will be buying half a million hybrids a year."

There is much more that is interesting and well worth reading, but here is the last paragraph :

"It's still hard to tell whether Detroit is really serious about the hybrid-car business. After all, the same companies touting their hybrids today just lobbied successfully to put the brakes on legislation that would have mandated tougher fuel-efficiency standards. President Bush has proposed tax credits of $2,000 to $ 3,000 for hybrid car buyers, but those funds aren't likely to kick in for another two years, if ever. Until then, if you want your fancy hybrid car, you'll have to pay a premium. Maybe that's what appeals to the movie stars." (bolding emphasis mine)

Reader reaction in the last issue I mentioned earlier was mixed.

Traude, thank you so much for that informative post of hybrid cars and thank you for preparing it for us.

Here are pictures of some of the Hybrid Cars

Hybrid

Enlarge the pictures you see by cliking on them. You can then read more about them.

Bill H

I read where the United States pumps more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than any other country in the world. Each of us contributes about 22 tons of carbon dioxide emissions per year, whereas the world average per capita is about 6 tons. When and where did we start to go wrong? I suppose it started from the technology that WW2 advanced and was continued by NASA and other scientist and engineers. But surely the knowledge gained from both WW2 and space exploration would have also advanced our technology in the prevention or offset of global warming. Perhaps it did, but it’s just being ignored because of the impact it would have on our economy. I sometimes wonder are we all that smarter than the rest of the world? Doesn’t the other leading countries of this planet posses the same knowledge as we? We are so blessed. I just hope we can remain so.

Bill H

after reading most of the posts. First of all, I am optimistic. We have recognized there is a problem with the environment, which is the first step in the right direction to fix things. What I don't like is all the political games being played and the fast and loose talk by the media, including some outright hysteria not based on facts. Even in the scientific community there is a wide difference of opinion about global warming and the ozone layer, all theory, very little fact. So we just don't know. I know one side of the scientific community that believes most of the temperature increases happened early in the century BEFORE all of our cars and industrialization, and that actually global temperatures have gone down by a small percentage point. Some believe there is regular cyclical fluctuation in the earth's temperatures anyway, no matter what we do, and I also know when I was in high school there was constant talk and warning about a new "ice age", while now it's just the opposite. Personally, with all I've read on both sides, I don't think there has been global warming at all---so far---although admittedly there are a lot of environmental problems.

Europe has cut down most of its forests, and we are following close behind, but we complain about some poor farmer who cuts down a few acres of rainforest in order to be able to feed his family. In reality most of the rainforest is being cut down by our very own greedy corporations, such as McDonalds, who want cheap land to grow cattle to produce the hamburgers which we eat. So again, we need to look to ourselves at being mostly at fault. Americans use up most of the natural resources of the planet, but we keep pointing the finger at everyone else, and that's just plain not fair. Developing countries have a right to use their own resources, just as we did once when we were developing.

Then every once in a while I hear that gasoline prices should be increased to be on a par with Europe, which is nonsense. First of all, we have domestic oil, which most Europe doesn't have, so our prices should be much lower. Second, Europe is small in comparison to this country, so the distances we HAVE TO DRIVE are enormous in comparison; and third, Europe has a decent public transportation system, which we don't have. Our passenger trains are almost nonexistent, and those that remain are inconvenient. Bus transportation is constantly being cut down. Cities have been built to accommodate automobiles and local public transportation has been neglected almost everywhere. It seems silly for our own citizens to talk about restricting their own movements in a free country by upping the price of gasoline. It's like shooting yourself in the foot.

In the meantime also I can't help wondering why SUVs are being heavily criticized when SUVs use the same chassis and engine as pick-up trucks; yet no one seems to criticize pick-up trucks. That's because the news media has zero'd in on SUVs for some strange reason, and, as usual, has not given us all the facts. And what about getting heavy trucks off the roads and getting goods moved back on train tracks? Would not only cut down on pollution, but be a safety boon for the rest of us to boot.

As for domestic oil drilling, I have no objection. Saw an interesting program on the Alaskan pipeline recently. Not only has it been "good" for the animals, but the pipeline was built on legs so it would not interfere with wildlife migration patterns, and the legs it stands on are air conditioned so there will be no damage to the permafrost. Now, I know the oil companies did not do that voluntarily, but if we demand that they respect the environment, then they will be forced to do that.

In the meantime we, each one of us, needs to cut waste as much as we can, and research needs to continue with such things as solar and wind power and the hybrid cars discussed here.

As one poster said, throughout history we have averted complete disaster, and I think we will continue to do so. When things get bad enough even for the rich (who can now escape the worst of it with the help of their money) then something will be done. We, as free citizens, can put a lot of pressure on our government to make the right laws and put the right structures in place and to the right research, but we need to educate ourselves with facts, and not hysteria. Sad to say, hysteria is what our news media mostly feeds us, such as this recent thing about the ice bergs breaking off. Ice bergs had ALWAYS broken off in huge chunks. There is absolutely nothing new there. Weather patterns have only been followed fairly accurately for 50 years or so, so how do we really know the patterns are different? And the earth has always had cycles of hot and cold, too much rain, not enough rain. And there are a whole lot of scientists out there whose main aim is to publish papers in order to further their careers; so often they publish things that are premature, which the news media picks up and feeds to us as facts. We, as free citizens, need to educate ourselves, determine fact from fiction and make logical decisions based on evidence, not news hysteria.

On that note, I think our president was right in not signing the Koyoto accord. There are other ways to handle this besides tying our own hands, and one of them is the natural competition in an environment of freedom, and in informed citizenry. When the hybrid cars become cheap enough, we will be out there buying them. Each one of us is responsible for using less material goods in our lives, to simplify and re-use instead of wanting continually newer and better and keeping up with the lifestyles fed to us on our television sets.

I know it's possible because I do exactly that. Have few possessions, take care of the ones I have and keep them in good repair, use very little as far as utilities go, combine trips in my car so I do one trip instead of several, walk when I can, and I live mindfully with only basics, without the "toys" that most people think are necessary (no TV, no big stereo, no cell phone, no microwave, no ATW, only one car instead of several, etc., etc.), and even though my income is considered "poverty level" by govenment figures, I feel RICH. the less we buy into the "consumerism", the richer we can feel and the better it will be for our beautiful planet.

Hi, MountainGal, enjoyed reading your comments, very well said. How do we know for sure? Scientist tell us what the earth and solar system was like billions upon billions of years ago. Well, I’m also a little skeptic about how things were billions and billions of years ago. I don’t see how they can accurately measure time like that.. I think that after a certain period of time further determination of time becomes highly impractical if not impossible, however, that’s just my belief. Maybe someone here can enlighten me

Train Travel Vs Truck Travel.

I was in favor of this, but I don’t think we can ever get rid of all the big rigs. It would be so impractical to run rail heads everywhere. Rail tracks would have to replace our vast highway systems to say nothing of the thousands of locomotives and cars to carry the load and the expense would be prohibitive.

Iiving in the Sierra Nevadas of California, as you do, must be truly wonderful. In my younger day, I was an avid photographer with a beautifully equipped lab. What pictures I could have made if I lived in that wonderful place.

Bill H.

I think you should pay more for you petrol in the USA. We pay more than twice the price here. Most of us would not think about taking our cars on frequent long distance trips as you seem to do. You would be more inclined to use public transport thus saving quite a bit of emission.

Carolyn

Carolyn: We don't have public transportation in much of the U.S. I live in a small town of 5700 in rural Iowa (the middle of the US...upper Midwest). There is no bus, no train, no taxi transportation, public or private here. I am 90 miles roundtrip from a commercial airport, a large medical facility, shopping malls, and cultural facilites like museums, symphonies, concerts, etc. My sister lives 750 miles (one way) from us; my husband's sisters live 250 miles (one way) from us. Flying is very expensive here and still would require my sister to drive 60 miles roundtrip to meet a plane.

My situation is not unique in the U.S.

When my husband was in college, Mackey School of Mines nad after the war, The School of Mines at Golden Colorado, I avidly read all his geology books and I loved it so much he allowed me to do some of the written work he had to turn in. He would outline and talk, and then I would write and type. He would read and make it his own by additions etc. then I would final type it to turn in. In this process I really learned a lot.

Later we went to a lecture/slide show where they showed the layers of the earth that were the same on all the continents. By counting these layers of sediment, and other more intricate methods, the assign a certain age to the layers so that they can estimate the age of the Grand Canyon for instance. Or Rock Formations in the Sierra's. When he and I went on pack trips through Desolation Valley in the High Sierras we could look at "cuts" in the side of Mountains and see the formations.I can understand the ages of the earth being counted and assigned names and of course we talk in thousands of years here.

Taking core samples of the earth at the bottom of the ocean is a new method of finding out more about our earth. And the same with samples of glacers they take going down hundreds of feet with the drill that brings up cores of the ice pack. You can see the levels, they then count these from the uppermost down and just like on tree rings you can age the glacier. I have been many times on trips with my husband and Dad up in the Redwoods where the engineers and weather people were counting tree rings and charting weather. Those trees have lived for 5000 years and give a wonderful pattern of weather. We have them in other parts of California than where we were hiking too. All this background was wonderful for learning that there are very scientific ways that these dates and charts are made up. Weather patterns too can be judged. Volcanos too, by the layers of ash.

I cant pass on all that I have encountered but it does make me able to understand and I do trust in data that a lot of you don't. We have weather information gathered by these varied methods for many thousands of years not just the last few hundred and you have to read a lot of stuff and look at the graphs and charts to begin to see what may be happening now. And it is slow, not overnite this major Global Warming. But these short term weather changes brought about by the ocean currents changing are a different pattern and will come and go and many things will effect them. Anyway, I am no skeptic about this stuff if it comes from authentic scientific weather people and Geologists, etc. Faith

you live, then take a map of the same proportions and place NZ next to the U.S. and Canada, and I think you will clearly see the difference in size. Not only that, but since the automobile was basically first put into major production in the U.S. and it was so convenient to use, we have built our whole country around automobile use. There is no public transportation to speak of. The distances are enormous. The town where I live is small, only about 3,000 people, and to do any major shopping we have to travel 95 to 100 miles in either direction, either to Reno or to Chico. To get to my medical clinic I have to drive 40 miles (and that is MANDATED by my HMO, which is a completely different medical system from the one you have). If I need a specialist I am forced to drive for three hours to Sacramento. So now on top of being ill, are you saying the expense for traveling to and from treatment centers (which I have no control over) should come out of my pocket for higher gasoline prices? I don't think so! Our problems here are totally different from living in a small country that has a public transportation system. We are dependent on oil and will have to find a way to rid ourselves of the dependence. In the meantime I don't think the average person should be paying higher prices, since in our case we have no choice at all.

Faithr, your post was interesting, and I agree that much information can be gathered from geological evidence and tree rings and even gas content and carbon dating. But what it still shows is that the earth goes through cycles of higher and lower temperatures, and the small increments of temperature that scientists are arguing about these days are not visible by those methods. I read a book on the Great Plains recently which stated that the plains states have arid, hot, extremely dry cycles every 50 years or so, and that's been going on for centuries. And then what about all the ice age scares when I was young? I remember the same scientists who are now talking about global warming were hustling us to believe in another ice age. So I tend not to believe all I hear. Most of it is hype, plain and simple.

Bill H, yes, where I live is lovely, north of Tahoe, south of Lassen, with the county in which I live being 75% national forest. And the way the forest service has handled our forests over the years is a disgrace. We abuse our own environment like no one's business, and then turn around and criticise the rest of the world. In my book, being the wealthiest nation on the planet, we are the ones who should be setting the example, and helping others with the science and technology to be better caretakers. But our own greed gets in the way----and that means every one of us on a personal basis every time we waste something or throw something out because we want the "newer" version.

One of the things I have worried about more than global warming, frankly, is the way we have abused our earth as far as farming, with all the chemicals we use so carelessly. We seem to forget that healthy earth is what grows our food, and when the earth is no longer able to grow what we need because of the abuse, we will be in more trouble than we ever believed possible, and oil will be small potatoes in comparison. We can LIVE without oil. We cannot LIVE without food. Not only that, but much of our best farmland is being bought up by foreign conglomerates. To have our food production in the hands of foreign entities, to my mind, is insanity. To subsidize the mechanized farms owned by the huge conglomerates and put the small farmer out of business is even more insanity.

But all the systems are in place to continue doing whatever we do, and the difficult part will be to change those systems. Usually when things get big enough they take on a life of their own, and to turn them around will take tremendous effort on all our parts.

Last year I did some traveling and camping through the Ansel Adams wilderness just north of Bishop, California. Awesome landscape everythere the eye looks. I do some photography myself, mainly as painting references, and took some really nice photos of that general area, Mono Lake, and also Bodie, the ghost town that is kept in what they call "arrested decay". Actually I'm more of a painter than a photographer, and for the last five years I have painted watercolor botanical studies of the wild flowers in this area. I have a solo show of 82 paintings coming up in June, but even with that many paintings I feel as though I have barely scratched the surface. It's too beautiful for words, with places that are truly still REAL wilderness. If you have a chance to vacation here some time, it truly is an grand experience.

MOUNTAIN GAL - We must be nearly neighbors (US distance speaking.) We are in Weaverville, between Redding and the coast. I no longer live as simply as you, because I trade stocks, have TV (did without from mid '60s to mid '90s) and do enjoy my stereo for good music, since I do play several instruments. I raised my kids on a small farm near Mt. Rainier in Washington State, where we pretty well did live the very simple back to earth life. It was great, but all that lifting and moving of hay and feed, plus other jobs I have done, ruined my joints, so a little less simplicity fits me better now.

Ms. E and I have one old car which we drive as little as necessary, and live like poverty level plus medical insurance, etc. for today's needs. She still sews her own clothes - I still knit my own socks and sweaters. Our garden is limited because we are in a senior trailer park, but she has more vegetables growing than flowers, I think.

You are so right about feeling very rich because we have more than we need and know it. Our biggest need is more storage.

I use what ever public transportation is around and have most of my life (except when I worked at 4 AM before the buses ran and while I farmed.) So I still believe the worst I did for planet earth was to have four kids. But in the 50's, we simply had no idea what we were heading for as far as population.

Every post is a gem ...I have always been an optimist so I tend to look at the world as a survivor. Still I can see the flaws and the abuse of our planet and that concerns me.

I hope the hybrid cars become a reality ..

It is a sad thing to say that a dear freind who is farmer can make more money from leasing his land to a large conglomerate than he can by farming it himself. Because he loves farming he is willing to work at it and his wife has a good job that enables him to do so. Their children will not be following in dad's footsteps as they see it as too hard to earn a living.

We also contribute to the demise of the small farmer. The small farmer cannot sell his produce as cheaply as the conglomerate and most of us prefer the cheaper price. Although in the long run we will be paying more in the increased use of pesticides ( which I have become allergic to) fertilizers that enter our ecosytem and when all the small farmers are gone the price of what we buy will increase as well.

When we lived in Tennessee we favored a farmer's market where we were able to buy fresh, home grown products. A few years ago I was visiting a friend who took me to a local farmer's market. If that was local produce I will eat my hat. It was a huge place..and everywhere there were crates of produce none with a local address. To me it was just another way for the large groups to sell thier produce at an inflated price because people thought it was fresher...

I remember not too long ago a weatherforecaster was predicting a "little ice age" and showing facts and figures to substantiate his claim. So I dont know which way we will go but I do know we need to be cautious and make an effort to be careful with our world.. It is the only place we have.

anna

I am enjoying reading the posts. Fertilizer run-off has been a big problem here in Florida. But since 1994 the sugar farmers have done a lot to improve their farming methods and things are looking much better in that area. My mother was raised on a farm where boats came from Baltimore to get their products. She mentioned often that they never sprayed and grew their vegetables without commercial fertilizers (what we would now call organic farming) and had wonderful vegetables.

Anna, you read my mind! Yes, every post is a gem. I hope the SeniorNet readers from the other discussions are reading the posts here I'm certain they have much to contriube,too. I have not just skimmed through these posts. No, I would have feared missing something of importance.

MountainGal, your mention of Ansel Adams brought back fond memories of the time I visited the Ansel Adams Museum of Photography in Yosemite National Park. His black and white print exhibit was awesome. That was the same year I ventured the raft ride down the river (the name escapes me right now) at the foot of the Grand Teton Mountains. What a thrill that was, of course, I was much younger. Our national parks are so beautiful I hope they are never defaced, for any reason.

Bill H

Mountain Gal My mom was born in Susanville. Raised in Nevada and California and my folks met and married up at Tahoe City in the era immediatly after WWI and I was raised at Tahoe though we went out some winters. I was born in Reno as was my first child. My dad was a mountain man in every sense of the word. He could live off the land and feed his family too in those days as could many men and my grandfather could too.I mean hunting and fishing and picking berries and nuts, and knew everything you could eat in the wild, not farming. Of course that became impossible later. I have been in and around Tahoe, then over on a Ranch on the Trinity river near Weaverville, and out to the coast to my dads place near Garborville, all my life. Settled in Sacramento after the we sold the ranch. I still would love to live like my dad did when he retired but htere is no way I could. He had a huge truck garden and hunted and fished. He traded art work, signs , and painting jobs for beef and lamb. He traded his fresh produce at the store for flour sugar and salt etc. He traded in the extra salmon he caught to the cannery for canned salmon saving him the chore of canning it though he could.His chickens were exotic and free range for sure. Everything was organic on his place. He had huge mulching barrels for making his own mulch, and ammended his soil with it off and on all year long. Apple and pear trees produced good in hi s area. He missed out on citrus. Made due with tomatoes. and cabbage. Cabbage supplies about everything a human needs to stay alive and health along with some protein. He also made saurkraut and other stuff most people dont bother with. I learned a lot, and as the years went by I always so myself living that way and when I was 55 I realized it was an impossible dream in this day. I have to settle for a mobil home and that is really ok except of course I am in a city and have no property. The dream of returning to an agrarian type of life is kaput today. Faith

Weaverville. Was there last year in April while the redbuds were all blooming, and it was beautiful, but it's too hot for me. Have friends in Redding and can't believe how hot it gets. LOL. I live in a small lumber town in Plumas County, in the mountains where it's much cooler, but our winters can be hard and very cold.

Faithr, I'm very familiar with Susanville, Tahoe, Reno, etc. My mother had the same kind of knowledge that your father seems to have had. I swear, she had such a green thumb that she could grow anything at all, and knew all the wild foods, and traded stuff for food just like you mentioned. Momma had a nose for mushrooms, could tell them all apart, and found them when no one else could.

I think people can still live off the land like that if they have some land. For sure you can't do it in a trailer park. And it takes a lot of work, which we aren't used to anymore. I can't recall my mother ever having the time to sit down and read a book. So we have to make our choices, I guess, and I'd rather read and paint than work as hard as she did, and where I live, which is all mountainous with shale instead of soil and a growing season of only 94 or so frost-free days, there isn't a chance even though I have over an acre of land. the only thing that grows really well in this shale is Jeffrey pines. They are like weeds, and every spring I have to remove hundreds of baby pines from all around my home because of fire danger if I let them get too big. They even grow in my gravel driveway. I think that's pretty much our main tree species here and they are very similar to ponderosa pine, hard to tell apart except by the cone and the fact that the Jeffrey pine bark has a vanilla type odor to it which smells soooooooooo good when I pull them out.

Reno has grown tremendously over the last five years or so. I think it's actually one of the fastest growing cities in the country, but now they have all the problems of civilization, including endless shopping centers with endless parking lots, smog all winter long where people are not allowed to use the fireplaces in their homes, and traffic jams so bad (poorly designed streets) that it's hard to get anything accomplished in that town. I lived there for three years before I came here and worked at Washoe Medical Center. Was happy to be able to escape as soon as I got the chance. LOL

Recycling

Sometimes good, sometimes bad. I’ll try to explain. Last summer my township resurfaced the street on which I live. They did it over completely, milling the street all the way down and laying a new road foundation before laying the new asphalt and, I must admit, the new street looks very nice.

But, oh my, what we went through while they were resurfacing. The part I found worse of all was the recycling of the old asphalt to use as a so called binder for the new. A grinding contraption attached to and following a truck breaks up and grinds the old asphalt to a fine black powder and blows it into the covered back end of the truck This is much the same as how an arborist will shred the cut down limbs of a tree into the back end of a truck. However, much of this fine black powder escaped and just went off into the air. It was a breezy day and this powder was blowing everywhere. You should’ve seen it. We all went scurrying to make sure our windows and doors were tightly closed. This is an example of bad recycling and air polluting. Have any of you experienced this?

Bill H

many problems too from over-use. Yosemite especially is so heavily used that they have had to ban cars all during the summer. And it's amazing how careless people are and the trash they leave behind, and the damage they do by defacing things, and breaking things. Even in this county, where we have a very limited amount of tourists (it hasn't really been discovered yet, and I hope it never will be) the damage is so heavy that the forest service is actually considering closing all the forest service access roads except by permit. That would be so sad, but I can see why it might be necessary. I have seen garbage left, plants destroyed for no reason, trees cut and just left to rot, ATV tracks left in pristine places, campfires left burning, water polluted, fish that was caught just left to rot. Actually, one of the worst offenders for water pollution in this area are cattle ranches. It's amazing the amount of damage cattle do to stream banks; yet the forest service leases the land (cheaply!) to cattle ranchers and cattle just roam at will. The odd thing is that the people who abuse the land the most are usually the ones who have lived here all of their lives and have no idea of the treasure they have. People who come here and retire from the cities tend to be more careful and also more verbal about keeping the environment pristine, but people from the cities often don't understand the local problems either and tend to make snap judgments.

One of the things I have seen here in this county is city people who sell their homes for a lot of money, then come here and find a piece of land out in the wilderness to build their "dream home" away from it all. Well, that's fine, except that with every home built in the wilderness, the native wildlife is displaced. Then these same people complain when a bear comes to visit (it was his territory before they came there), or a mountain lion takes one of their pets, or a racoon goes through the garbage. This land belonged to them, and their hunting territories are getting smaller and smaller. So where are they supposed to go? A mountain lion needs a vast territory to be able to feed him/herself.

Last year a mountain lion couple set up housekeeping in one of my neighbor's old barns, and animal control had to come and sedate them and transport them to high country. The female was pregnant and high country was full of snow. I sure hope they survived. They are so beautiful, and we keep encroaching and then turn around as though they are the tresspassers.

I've had bears come around my home in the winter to check for food, but I never leave anything out, so they move on. But they did raid my neighbor's chickencoop and get into any garbage that is left out. And once they get used to that, the become a danger to the population and have to be destroyed. It's so sad, but mainly it's the fault of careless people. So I try to live mindfully, and take into consideration all the circumstances, and never, never, never feed wildlife so they become dependent.

doing anything except making things worse. I think it takes a whole lot of energy to recycle things, breaking them down as needed, like you described above. And I think the fact is that once we have a product of any kind, unless it rots in an organic way to go back into the earth, I'm not sure recycling is the answer to anything. There are many things that are very difficult to recycle, like plastics; yet we buy more and more plastic articles. Even my credit card companies send me "gifts" of stuff like a plastic travel alarm clock, which often is junk, doesn't work for very long, and now what to do with it? If I throw it in the trash it goes into a land fill where it sits forever after, but there's no place to recycle it, and it would take too much energy to recycle it anyway. So everything is a trade-off, and I personally believe it boils down to using less, using it up, demanding quality that lasts for what we buy so we don't have to throw it away. But we are a throw-away society. With the computer, for instance, everyone thought it would be possible to go to a paperless office; instead I do believe we use more paper than ever before. If the computer goes down (which we have found they often do) we need that hard copy to continue business, and because it's so easy, we tend to send more copies all over the place. Just think of the amount of paper used by a FAX machine when it receives junk advertising day after day after day. We print more magazines, more newspapers, and have more files full of paper than ever before, and think of all the waste of paper for all the fast-food joints in the country, and all of it means trees are cut somewhere. I work for a medical center in town, and the amount of paper that is shredded (medical records are confidential) is amazing, and this is a small hospital not even a big medical center. The amount of paper used just for our annual taxes is doubly amazing.

So I don't know what the answer is. We have set up wasteful systems, and once they are in place they are difficult to dislodge. But we do have to weigh the energy used for recycling and make sure it's worth it. Production of energy also causes pollution. Hopefully we will be smart enough to figure it out and make it cheap enough to actually make a dent in it all.

I agree Mountain Gal that rycyling while a beginning to the problem is not the finally answer. Only reduction in consumption will help. This will not help the waste that comes from hospitals though. I was always angry when I came out of work the back way at the hospital (medical transcribing, there and in a Home Health Care(re Visiting Nurses) office. Piled on the back loading dock were mountains of waste tied up in plastic bags. After all the care taken inside with the red bags here they were just tossed on the deck 100's piled up. Some time in the night it would be removed but by morning the hospital would have it half full again. Hard to believe and in Sacramento there are 6 very large hospitals plus the big teaching school UCD Medical Center. Which is like 2 or 3 others. (ps my daughter was born at Washoe General Hospital in 42).

Yes yes it was a lot of work.My mom knew ever variey of good mushroom in the mountains and different ones out in Nevada. Even the experiment on my ranch in Trinity was hard work to be sure. I only had an acre in vegies other than corn and peas which each had an acre. The corn we picked young and sweet for our consumptions and freezer and as it grew large we used it with the other cattle feed. Plus the ranch manager and I experimented with drying corn for our geese and ducks for winter food. The peas we needed that many to get enough for both families and the critters that ate them. Down on the creek in the sand we had cantalope and watermelon. We shared that with the racoons and various varmits. One morning my daughter who had slept on the porch on a cot woke to find a young fox sleeping on her feet. She thought it was our puppy. She couldnt believe her eyes but she swore it was and she was a senior in college at Davis so dont think she was confused.

I dont think I make a dent in 400 million peoples purchasing habits but I try not to buy plastic. I take paper bags from the grocery store. I reuse these to put in my garbage can and if I have to I wrap my garbage in newspaper to put it in the big can. This cuts down somewhat on the plastic. I have recently been using old fashion freezer paper and tape to wrap stuff for the freezer instead of plastic. I would hope I can stick to this. The big plastic bottle use I dont contribute to as I never buy anything like soda or juice as I like to drink water or tea or milk and eat my fruit whole. I dont find these things an inconvience. I grew up saving bread wrappers to wrap my husbands lunch in and most kids from the thirties remember that stuff we saved..paper, string, rubber bands, bread wrappers and sugar sacks, and flour sacks. Everything my mom and nana brought into the house was saved and used. Enough preaching but I just know if we in large consuming countries tried we could really effect the market. Faith

Our city requires that no plastic bags can be used for recycled items; brown paper bags may be used. However, all garbage MUST be in tied clear plastic bags. They will not take it if the bag is not clear plastic. It's apparently so they can see if people are trying to throw into the garbage what should be recycled. Unfortunately, their standards seem to change from week to week, since some weeks they'll take as garbage one item and as recyclable the next. It does keep life interesting!

So do I. Have done that for 30+ years or so, and now have a home business transcribing only part-time for the small hospital and clinic in the town were I live. Even though I'm burned out on the job, it's OK on a part-time basis since I can pick my hours and never have to leave the house at all unless I want to. That is one advantage of the computer---no commute, no gasoline use every day. Do you work in Sacramento? We have the telemedicine program that is hooked up with U.C. Davis, which is nice too because it saves people from having to drive to see a specialist. But it only works for fairly simple consultations and if there's no treatment involved. For specialized treatment people still have to drive for three hours to get to U.C. Davis. Reno and Washoe Medical Center are closer to us, but because it's in another state most of the insurance companies (HMOs) won't allow treatment over state lines, which I think is very odd because it's all one country. But they have their rules and that's that. My own HMO even mandates what zip codes we can live in which is outrageous as far as I'm concerned in a free and democratic society. So to get around that because I live outside their "allowed" aread, I just got a p.o. box in an approved zip code and go there once a month to see if they've sent me anything. Weird world we live in---when corporations can tell you where you may or may not live to have health insurance coverage.

Faith, I line my garbage bin with the plastic bags; less leakage that way. But I agree there are far too many cheap plastic products being turned out, and the only answer is to stop buying them. But where do you find the old-fashioned freezer paper? That I would like to try. ...Babi

We here in south western Pennsylvania are also under a mandate to recycle. We must recycle aluminum, glass, and paper. The aluminum cans and glass containers may be put in plastic bags, but newspapers have to either tied in a bundle with string or placed in paper bags, however, grass may still be put in plastic bags or rubbish cans. All this must be placed curbside for scheduled pick up days. Several of my neighbors have started using mulch mowers, saving the trouble of bagging the grass, however, if the grass is high mulch mowers do a sloppy job.

In the fall, leaves are no longer permitted to be burned in Allegheny County, PA, haven’t been for quite some time due to the air pollution law. Leaves must be put in large recyclable paper bags and placed curbside for pick up. Many, many paper bags are needed for leaf recycling They are then taken to the township’s compost area where they forment into organic fertilizer.

There was an article in the newspaper about the improper handling of hospital waste after it left the hospital. The article stated that some of this waste was being found in the rivers of the region. I’m quite sure there are many waste haulers that just don’t care.

Pittsburgh, PA has a large medical center and we in the Greater Pittsburgh area are very fortunate in being close to all types of health care providers. There are specialist in every field within a ten or fifteen minute drive from my house. This region is heavily populated with senior citizens and living close to these health care providers is quite a boon for us. Seniors have a tendency to remain in the Pittsburgh area that’s why this region is noted for it’s aging population. When I think of all the joys of living in a remote area must have, I think of all the health care providers I have access to and then I think: “Well this isn’t so bad.” )

Bill H

Bill re Health Care in Sacramento which I think is excellent. Mountaingal I just havent had the inspiration to work at home like you do though I would like the money. When I left office to retire it was a big day in my life. I hate office work. Someday I will tell you about my cooking for State of CA.

Babi I find freezer paper in the section of my Supermarket where the parchment paper is right next to the Glad wrap. They also put it in the section where there are canning and freezer supplies in some of the markets. In large coops like Cosco they even have regular butcher paper by the roll which is cheaper and works great if you have room. I dont anymore but when I did I had a big roller like you see in Butcher shops it was attached to a large butcher block table my husband bought from a restuarant supply house. We put it in the utility room where we also had a big commercial grider as I wanted to grind my own beef. (When dad hunted I ground most of the venison except for the leg, and backstrap.) I made my own sausage too. I had a 26 cu ft freezer (purchased in 1949 and used till 1964 an Amana) which held a half a beef, a half a lamb, sundry chickens, and vegies and fruit. I doublewrapped everything and it was used by the date I designated every time. Then out to buy more.I feed a family of five and there was always one or two more living with us so most nights we had at least seven people at the table. But I let the butcher cut and wrap most of the beef and just send me the meat we do grind etc. I also had lots of bones for soup and stock which you cannot buy anymore. As you can guess I never bought any prepared meals when I raised my family. Now I do as it is easier. Still I know how to do lots of things my children have forgotten and they didnt even know you could wrap stuff rather than put it in a plastic baggy.

We can put our clippings and bush trimmings in the garbage can. There is plenty of room now. We have the 50 gal garb. and 50 gal recyle cans. Garb. every week recycle every other week goes out too. In the recycle can we can put bundles of paper, paper bags, plastic bags, bottles, glass and plastic, jars glass, alum. cans, and any clean cans we want, and sundry small plastics containers and lids etc. if they are bagged in a plastic bag. so I have two waste cans in the kitchen. One for gargage and as I say I wrap my wet garbage in news paper or paper bags, and that includes meat and bone scraps, so my garbage can never smells anymore and I only about 1/4 fill the recycle can but now we can put cardboard in it so it will fill up faster. I approve of this plan here in our city. it is working well as far as the Board of Supervisiors are saying. Faith

We're not allowed to put any grass clippings, leaves, branches, etc. out. In the spring, they'll usually collect branches, twigs if tied twice. They will pick up leaves two or three times in the fall, but they have to be rakes to the lawn strip and then the day before into the street out from the curb. It often rains and so is a problem for many. We also have a city compost area and it's great if you have a truck or trailer to take your yard waste there. If you don't, it's a problem. Recycles are picked up once a week; garbage the following day.

They say since the recyle is doing a great job of keeping cans and bottles and plastic etc out of the dump the area is mostly garbage and so the clipplings leaves and garden trash makes a good cover over the garbage helping to break it down faster. I wondered about all the plastic bags that people line their waste cans with in the house interfering with th is process and a friend told me they talked about that at one of the meetings before they started this new program a couple of years ago. The have a machine that tears and shreds the plastic bags so the garbage is exposed to the other trash and the air and can break down. Of course the worst problem is still the plastic disposable diapers and they are going to have to do something about that and soon. Faith

Most of you I see have some sort of recycling program as we do here in Newport News Virginia. Besides the curbside pickup once a week we also have special day 4 times a year when we can take paint, pesticides, household products we should never toss down the drain etc ...it is usually two days..a Friday and Saturday so we fill up all the products that we have that need to be disposed of safely and go to the High School football stadium. We also recieve a coupon that if we mail it back we get 2 dollars off the next pickup bill.

I try not to use things that need this extra method and have found baking soda and white vinegar will do a lot of things that purchased products do and for less and are not harmful.

We do compost and have for years. When I first did it the nieghbors called the local codes and compliance department. Said it was attracting rodents...which I never saw ...it was a neat,fenced area and we kept any kitchen scraps covered with leaves and grass clippings. I even use the lint from my dryer in my compost. Since we never used cooked products or meat or fats I never saw anything on or in the compost except sometimes a bird would fish around in the pile that was finished composting.

The gentleman from the department said there was no law against having a compost pile as long as it was neither an eyesore or attracting vermin. My neighbors solution was to put up a 6' fence ...I have to laugh because their young son used to annoy us by calling through the chain link fence we had. After their fence was up he would climb a tree next to us and annoy us but his parents caught him and chastised him so that came to an end.In fact the man from the codes department had a compost pile and suggested everyone who could should.

It seems like a little to do but if enough do it ...it does make a difference. And of course I have BAGS AND BAGS OF leaves in the fall that goes on the compost. In winter I use a lot of citrus fruit and when spring comes and I dig in my compost to use around my plants it has the most wonderful citrusy fragrance. My compost never smells it sometimes smells woodsy or earthy but they are pleasent odors ..

I used to dry all my clothes outdoors but now I use the dryer..sometimes you have to accept you are getting too old to do some things ..I also make over things. When my youngest graduated from College Ihad a closet full of formals..ones I had made and most were worn only once..Heaven forbid she should be seen twice in the same formal. I did mail a large box to her in college for her sorority sisters who didnt have a formal and the girls loved them and kept them. The remainder I removed the tops and used the skirts ( they were full then ...about 15 years ago and recovered all of my decorative pillows. I have to laugh when she came home she recognized the fabric and asked where did I get it ..when I told her she was indignant saying Well so much for sentamentality! To which I replied I told you if you wanted them to take them to your place. I need my own closet space. I refused to store stuff when my children married ..and sometimes they come home looking and I tell them I gave it to Goodwill...I know that is besides the point it just makes me smile to think of it...

I dont know how thrifty my children are.. I do know they eat out a lot and I can see with the wives working cooking poses a problem...you can do it but it takes a lot of effort ..my sons can cook and do so but again after a hard day at work it is no fun to come home and have to cook. I do know they share baby clothes and equipment among all of their friends.

I donate the scraps from my sewing to several senior homes who still piece and make quilts..I often make place mats, napkins, small hand towels for the guest room, pillow cases and potholders from my scarps as well. In fact my oldest daughter reminded me she can use some new potholders.

My oldest used to sew before she lost some of her vision but my youngest and my two daughters in law do not ...and I am not sure if any of them even know how to do some of the things we seniors know about. In the back of mind I think what will happen if they lose electricity or some other thing they have always lived with and have no idea how to do without...

AH well I have rattled on..the curse of the Irish! enjoy everyones sharing ...anna

We had a pilot recycle program where I live but decided not to go forward with it. Instead they have large recycle igloos at different locations for the different recyclables. They have yard waste pickup once a week (no plastic bags only in cans or loose)and garbage pickup twice a week. Our neighbor collects newspapers for her church recycle program so we give them to her. It is interesting how each community handles recycling, etc. In my husband's hometown they have been recycling since the 50's. When we were first married, I thought it was awful that they had to separate their garbage. Of course, very few people recycled back then. ANNA- I was born in Newport News, VA and raised in Hampton. Small world.

In 1946 I lived in Denver a few months. We had 2 cans and a box. One can was for wet garbage only and it had to be wrapped in paper before going in the can.(that is where I learned to use my left over news paper to wrap all my wet garbage coffe grounds peelings etc. and on can was for tin cans and jars to be washed out first and the box was for paper containers that were cleaned and cut up. Some people who didnt obey the "garbage rules in our neighborhood were reprimanded and fined if they keep doing it. Faith

Yesterday I posted that I believe waste haulers have a disregard for the waste they haul. Today an article appeared in the Post-Gazette that substantiates this. The article is well worth reading just for the comptempt one driver had. He had so little regard that he had jail time for two consecutive trips to the waste dump. Westmoreland County in Pennsylvania has been jailing drivers for the various infractions. Here’s the link. Waste

On a lighter side, today I planted my tomato plants. I was a little late this year because of all the cold rainy weather we have experienced in our region. I bought them from a greenhouse that grows just about everything they sell. But, anyway, the tomato plants I bought were named--no kiddin now--”Big Boys” and “ Big Girls.” So I planted a mix of them hoping they keep one another happy, thereby, giving me tastier tomatoes ) Did any of you ever hear of these tomatoes. Maybe it’s just a hybrid of this

Bill H

We have a recycling program here which is about to be extended. Plastics glass and cans go in a small bin collected at the kerb each week. We pay seperately for garden bags which takes away garden waste. Soon we will have a bin for organic household waste such as veg scraps left over food etc. Paper is collected free at the kerb.

Carolyn

in NJ requires the homeowner to separate . Newspaper and magazines bundled and tied , plastics and glasss containers in a separate container, food waste in a garbage can/container. Motor oil transported to the collection site and collected in large containers for reprocessing ( by vendors?). Construction waste separated and delivered to waste collection site. Hazardous materials ( plainly marked as to content) delivered to a site designated by the county ( semi annually). Collected wastes are transported out of state for disposal

Expenses are underwritten by taxation.

NC has much the same except that the plastics go into the trash with the food wastes (?)

Bill I have Big Girl planted in container this year. For a number of years I had Both varieties and also a low acid yellow tomatoe that was delicious. I cant handle a big garden any more. I like Big Girl but none of the new varieties taste as good as old fashion varieties like Beefsteak for table eating. There are many that are ok for cooking etc. but I would like to grow some of the tomatoes varieties I grew in the late 40's an 50's. Kids used to eat them out in the garden as soon as they were ripe and I had to plant more and more.fr

As regards the tomatos......I have Better Boy's.....lol....I am picking them now!!!! they are delicious.....

They must be a very early variety Tigerlily or do you have summer weather all year? fr

Yes....Florida.....they are just now coming in......

The first year I tried to raise tomatoes, I didn't know how to pinch them back. The second year, my husband mowed them down...claimed he didn't know what they were. The third year I started them in a tray, then transplanted them when they were larger. Himself cut them down anyway. The fourth year,I went back to buying my tomatoes. (He also cut down my Peace rose bush....twice! Said it got in his way. Did I mention this is my EX-husband? LOL)...Babi

Toxics
Toxic chemical pollution threatens every American family and every community. In 1996 alone, State and federal governments allowed polluters to dump more than 175 million pounds of cancer-causing chemicals into our air and water
By Michael Grunwald Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, January 1, 2002; Page A01
ANNISTON, Ala. -- On the west side of Anniston, the poor side of Anniston, the people ate dirt. They called it "Alabama clay" and cooked it for extra flavor. They also grew berries in their gardens, raised hogs in their back yards, caught bass in the murky streams where their children swam and played and were baptized. They didn't know their dirt and yards and bass and kids -- along with the acrid air they breathed -- were all contaminated with chemicals. They didn't know they lived in one of the most polluted patches of America

It’s sad to read our environment is being so polluted with these toxic chemicals. I read this report with concern and pity for the people who live on the west side of Anniston, Ala. This community is just one of the many, many places subject to toxic chemicals. How do we know what toxins and chemicals are being put in the waste dumps near our own areas. I would imagine plenty. I believe heads are turned the other way from these infractions because money talks. The waste hauler I spoke of yesterday didn’t care that he was jailed on two successive occasions and paid hefty fines each time. I gather from that the amount of money made on waste hauling and dumping is enormous. In all likelihood his fines were paid for him by the company.

Last weeks paper gave an account of a new nuclear waste dump site being opened in Nevada. If all of this continues on and it will, how much more of this can our planet sustain before becoming completely toxic in and of itself.

I sometimes wonder if all the space exploration our government is going ahead with is also to locate another planet somewhere in the galaxy fit for human habitation, if our own planet Earth becomes so toxic that life can no longer survive on it. A far fetched thought, maybe, but perhaps the governments of the various countries know more about the result of continuing toxic pollution and waste dumping than what they are telling us. Perhaps the are a bit worried.

Bill H

I feel quite overwhelmed and cynical when I list all the things we do know about that are harming the earth, and there appears to be no solution the people and government will put in effect.

One thing no one talks about in relation to the ozone layer is the effect of all the high flying jets pour tons of burnt fuel emmissions into the upper atmosphere hour after hour every day of the week, commercial and governments alike flying cargo, people etc. all over the planet.

Still I do what I can as one small ant in the masses on this earth. And just pray the people will wake up and do something soon. Faith

Faithr, that was a good statement about jet planes pouring tons of burnt fuel emissions into the air.

Bill H

My edible gardening space is quite limited but I have a good spot for half a dozen tomato plants. That may sound like a lot of plants be we manage to keep our eating cyle pretty even with their growing cycle. I like to buy different varieties of young plants and have tried several litke Better Boy, Early Girl, Celebrity and Champion amongst others. This year I tried out a variety new to me called "Whatta" tomato. Dying to see how that turns out. But we hold no favorites; we like them all! This has been quite a cool spring so that our vines are behind schedule and we are seeing flowers but just a few tomatos. Oh yes, those vines really like the mix from our little compost pile. The one lucky enough to be planted closet to the compost is half again bigger than the one on the end of the line. Babi, your tomato planting problems got a really big chortle out of me. Hey don't give up, keep trying! losalbern

Babi....sounds like trading that guy in was a good move!!!!!

Thank all of you for your comments on tomato plants, but I think now we better get back to global warming. Some of the other readers may not like it.

)

Bill H

The following indented paragraphs are taken from Dana Milbank’s column that appeared in the Washington Post. 5/25/02. They refer to the recent meeting in Moscow between President and Bush and President Vladimir Putin.

”Before arriving in Moscow on Thursday, administration officials emphasized the importance of persuading Russia to reconsider its support of a nuclear reactor project in Bushehr, Iran. At the news conference, Bush said Putin ‘gave me some assurances that I think will be very comforting for you to listen to.’
But Putin responded with no such assurance, instead defending Russia’s help to Iran as ‘exclusively’ for energy use, not weapons. ‘I’d like to point out also that the U.S. has taken a commitment upon themselves to build a similar nuclear power plant in North Korea,’ he said.

If what Putin says is true, why would we commit ourselves to build a Nuclear Power plant in a hostile nation, as North Korea surely is? Is it all about money?

Bill H

Can we authenticate the building of Nuclear Power Plant in North Korea by the U.S. I really think we should have heard more about that if it true.

No one but you Bill seem to care about the burnt jet fuel spewed continuiously into the upper atmosphere. In my opinion it has more to do with the depletion of the ozone layer than any other thing. fr

No, I also feel concern about the jet fuel being sprayed into the air. But sometimes it seems there are so darned many things that bother me - heavy pesticide residue on our foods, children becoming involved with sex, drugs,and violence, the paving over of our fertile agricultural land, the absence of a decent health plan, the corruption of pharmaceutical companies more interested in profits than in health, oh my, on and on. It bothers me, too, that I and others are in danger of becoming desensitized to all these stresses just so that we might make it through another day. How do you get to the main source of all the trouble? What IS the main source of all the trouble? How do we allocate our priorities so that instead of just spinning our wheels we might actually make a difference, even a small difference?

because it's something I've thought about and feel overwhelmed by also. It seems the more aware you become, the more problems surface, and all of them seem so important. In our neck of the woods it's lumbering, cattle ruining streambeds, overgrazed land, ATVs and off-road vehicles ruining the forest so the forest service is thinking about restricting ALL access, litter and garbage, animals displaced and their hunting grounds constantly encroached upon, campfires left burning, noise pollution, soil erosion, etc. etc. And I'm out in the country. It's even worse in cities and where there's agriculture going on.

I don't know what the answer is, except that I try my best to live very simply (bare bones) and mindfully. It satisfies me somewhat even though in the big picture things are still the same or get worse every year, and I notice that every time I leave my little hermitage. But I don't know what else to do or how to fight it. So what can one do? And what should be our priorities? What do the scientists really know? What is news media scare tactics to fill the air waves just to keep our attention, and what is real and true? And where do we find a politician who is truly interested in the country and not spouting falsehoods for his own self-interest? And where do we find a corporation that is socially truly responsible and doesn't just use some do-good angle for advertising purposes? It just seems so terribly complicated, while we still all have to live every day, with jobs and children and grandchildren and illness and aging parents, and things that break down and need fixing and cleaning, pets that need care, houses that need painting, plumbing that needs to be maintained, and budgets and trying to grow tomatoes, and less energy every year.

I don't have an answer, that's for sure, except for myself in my immediate surroundings. If anybody does have an answer I sure would like to shake that person's hand.

As would I Mountain Girl. Of course sometimes I think that is why it gets worse is that people have in the last 30 or 40 years become desenitized to the looming problems. If a state cleans up one little stream and declares it safe water again the whole country says Well, see, everything is ok.

And it is true in our own immediate surroundings too. We just do what we can in our own environment and try to help our children and grandchildren become aware and do their share. In that way it spreads.

Look how long it took to get the tobbaco message across in the US and I for one didnt quite smoking until 6 years ago so I was an addict too. After I quit I washed all the paneling in my home had rugs and drapes cleaned and no longer allow smoking in my home. I am the last but one of 100 people in my family to quit. At our family reunion in 97 we had most of those people in my family there and no smokers but 1 or maybe 2. Now that was a triumph for the health machine in this country. Faith

Good for you, Faith. I still smoke, but if anything gets me to stop it will be the smell smoking leaves on everything, walls, cloth, rugs, even the surface of your window panes. It's in my hair, my bedding (although I do not smoke in bed--never have). Doesn't smoking SMELL AWFUL?!?

HOWZAT

Faithr asked if our commitment to build a Nucelar Reactor in North Korea could be authenticated. Well, I can’t, but President Bush didn’t deny it. You can read the article by cliking on Dana Milbank

And Faithr even though the message about cigarettes has been advertised so many times, I regret to say I still see many teen agers lighting up.I could understand people smoking in our day because it was the thing to do and it's adverse affects on our health was little known,but with all the unfavorable publicity cigarette smoking receives now, I’m at a loss to understand why anyone still smokes or starts to smoke.

The prohibitive cost of a pack of cigarettes would deter me. When I stoped smoking back in 1973 cigarettes cost 35 cents a pack. I ‘ve been told that in some stores they cost over four dollars a pack wheeee!! Must be a lot of rich people.

Bill H

And we are aware of the problems..I too feel overwhelmed by so many things wrong with the world and so many ignoring it. I have lived a good many years and hope to enjoy a few more but it saddens me to think the world my grandchildren will inherit will not be the same I inherited.

My mother protected me from the sun always and I have to say I have either been blessed with good genes to begin with or her care and my following her advice has given me a skin that is still youthful ( lol maybe I am kidding myself ) but everyone is always amazed at how good my skin looks..I had a doctor a few years ago when he saw my age on my records sat me down and put a light on my face looking for signs of a face lift...LOL

I have never smoked and that helps as well..I know that and when I was growing up soda's were a sometime thing ...we had lots of milk and no coffee ..iced tea in summer months ...or lemonade < the real kind) we were encouraged to eat fruit ..fresh when available and canned when not..

I learned from my mother a lifetime of thrift..which has served me well indeed..and in my opinion my family lived very well indeed ..of course with five brothers and my father there was little left overs but whatever was left over my mother used some way.

She did laundry once a week and the bed linens, the towels etc had to last a week...We changed clothes when we came home from school ..and we wore the same outfit to school at least twice before we were allowed to change..My mother thought it was so wasteful to wash clothes as often as I did..have to say I am more thoughtful in that area now..I have work clothes, garden clothes and the rest of my clothes are used one day in the evening and the next am at least...

I have read all I can about how to make do and not waste or pour harmful things into the soil or into the water system...I know it seems small and insignificant but at least I will do my best ..My husband was cremated and so will I..since he is at Arlington I will be buried with him but if not I would prefer my ashes disposed of in more natural way..

I recognize all my agonizing wont make a difference but even a little bit helps..anna

Anna I was talking to my daughter and she asked me if I had heard the hundred monkeys story? Her point was that if enough people like you and me and Mountain gal and Bill and all others who post here keep talking about it and doing their own bit and telling others what can be done and yes agonizing over it it seems to form a mass of "thought" and soon a thousand monkeys a thousand miles away will be washing their potatoes. (that is the outcome of the monkeys story)

Bill H I say what I can around young people and do get some glares. Cigarrettes have become more expensive than illegal dope tobacco in California so a neighbors grandson told him one day.Seems that in grocery stores or machines they cost $4.00 a pack. When I started smoking it was to look older in the places my service man husband took me as I was so underage. I paid 2.00 a carton in the px. It lasted a month. It was within my budget and after while I was hooked and even smoked when pregnant and no md said not too in those days. They also did not warn of alcohol consumption while pregnant. But fortunatly I couldnt drink it made me sick then. Wish it always had.fr

Apparently there are still many teens who need the prop of a cigarette to look "cool", to look grown-up and mature, to appear self-confidant. And by the time they no longer need the prop, they're hooked.

I've seen a series of ads on TV, aimed at parents with advice on dealing with teen-agers re. smoking, who their friends are,where they are going, etc. They seem to me to be expressing the message quite well, and this sort of mass outreach is very much needed. Kids do ofen seem to pay more attention to what they see on TV than to their parents. Which makes it all the more imperative to be alert to what is/i> being said, and acted out, on TV. ...Babi

Anna, a very touching post. and indeed we are trying.

The Pittsburgh region has made some vast steps in cleaning up its environment. I was born in 1927 and all through the thirties, forties and fifties Pittsburgh was known as the smoky city. We were a steel mill and foundry region in that period of time and I never knew the air to be completely free of smog and smoke. At night, from my grandmother’s back porch, I could look far to the north east and see the J & L blast furnaces lighting up the sky like the Northern Lights. What a sight that was to see. The sky was fire red from the furnaces and molten steel, but, oh my, what it did to the air. I was told that during WW2 these furnaces worked twenty-four hours a day. All the mills in the area did. And black smoke poured out of the locomotives that pulled the cars that carried this steel to other cities to be made into ships, tanks, planes, etc. We had three rail heads then leading in and out of the city and all were used. River barges could be seen all day long being pushed by river boats burning coal to make steam to turn their paddle wheels. The river boats pushed the barges carrying material for the war effort down the Monongahela and Allegheny Rivers into the Ohio River to ports west.

It was very common to see the street lights lit at noon time in downtown Pittsburgh because the air was dark with smog and soot. Pittsburgh was a war city then. Soot would settle on the white shirts of business men long before their day’s work was finished. And the women were always washing their curtains. In the nice weather the ladies would dry these curtains on curtain stretchers--remember them.

The only houses furnaces I knew of then were coal furnaces. I sure don’t remember any gas furnaces in the neighborhood and this also contributed to the smog as the smoke poured out of the chimneys I remember the women putting cheese cloth over the hot air registers to help keep the coal dust from coming through them.

When foreign steel become cheaper to buy than domestic steel, the steel mils vanished from the Pittsburgh region. This along with other clean air mandates has made Pittsburgh not the smoky city any longer. The air is so much cleaner now and the street lights no longer have to be turned on during the day.

Faithr, when I was in the army, cigarettes were ten cents a pack. but so many of the services organizations gave them to us for free, it was hardly necessary to buy them. They thought they were doing us a favor. Little did they know. But for the average working person to pay four dollars for a pack of cigarettes, when this money could go towards purchasing health care insurance and other family needs, is stupid. Why a carton must cost about thirty or thirty-five dollars. I could never see myself putting out that kind of money for cigarettes.

Babi, were do the teen agers get the money to indulge in these habits? Surely not from their parents. And if they work minimum pay jobs they money could be spent for better purposes.

Bill H

In 1999 , I underwent a coritid endarterectomy to remove plaque from my coritid artery.This April the other side had the same surgery. In each case just hours before a full fleged stroke.

Cause:smoking , which I stopped in 1961 as a result of awarning about potential cancer of the tongue. So far I can function w/o the need for bottled oxygen ( emphysema ).

The kids don't think about the permanent changes (to blood chemistry, imact on vision, impact on sex drive,stroke , heart attack pulmonary disease), that are the benefits of the chronic use of tobacco.

As long as tobacco is not classified as a dangerous controlled substance,theynever will.As long as southern politicans are in office , it never will be so classified. The consideration is the contribution of campaign funds.

"The consideration is the contribution of campaign funds."

Gorman,very well said and so true.

Bill H

I sincerely thank all of you who participated in the Global Warming discussion. I believe it to be a fascinating subject. I read all of your interesting posts. Some of them I read twice because I didn’t want to miss anything and because I was moved by them. I learned a lot from you, as I always do in these discussions. Thank you for joining in and making the discussion a good one.

It’s hard to believe we started this Global Warming journey two weeks ago. The time flew by and we barely scratched the surface. I was your trolley conductor for the past two weeks, but now the Curious Minds trolley is pulling into the station and we are changing discussion leaders. Lorrie will be your DL and she has picked a honey of a topic. I believe it will be called The Generation Gap. I think we can all say something in that discussion. Lorrie, the trolley is in your hands now.

Till we meet again,

Bill H

I don't know teens very well now, but when mine were that age in the '70s, three of them started smoking so they could try smoking pot at parties. In two of those cases, they hated pot but continued smoking - one still does, unfortunately. (Of course, I learned this fact years later.)

Thanks, Bill, for a great discussion. I've enjoyed the reading and the thought-provoking comments.

We can ALL do generational stuff, I'm sure.

Mary

Many thanks to Bill our trolley conductor on this trip. And to all the posters who contribute thoughtful and intelligent ideas even some I dont agree with I welcome as that way I can learn. I always like to read what skeptics think as it points me in directions I may not have gone in. welcome Lorrie. fr

Bill, I don't know for sure where the teens get their money, but I must assume it comes from their parents. They obviously have a lot of money to spend, as the teen market is one of the largest in the country. Look at all the advertising directed at teens in magazines and on TV. This has been a most thought-provoking discussion, though many of the thoughts it provoked were highly unpleasant ones. Sometimes you wonder if you really wanted to know! LOL Seriously, tho', not being of the ostrich persuasion, I really prefer to face the truth so far as is possible. ...Babi

An old labor negotiator (I can't remember his name now) use to tell people at the negotiating table, "In order to come to the best possible outcome, it is necessary that all of you start from where you really are, not where you think you are, or where you wish you were. Exploring false options based on wrong questions will not bring us to good results. The truth is where you start no matter how painful the truth turns out to be."

Thanks, Bill. I mostly have lurked, but this has been a revealing discussion.

HOWZAT

Thank you, Bill.

Some of your posts have segued right into our next topic of conversation----The Generation Gap. I hope you will all stay with us while we talk about this always interesting subject. Everyone is welcome, even the young whipper-snappers. Especially the young whipper-snappers.

Lorrie

So then, we just go on. Or will the site change again? fr

FaithR:

Good question. The heading above, "Curious Minds", will always remain the same. Only the topic of discussion will change every two weeks. It's a sort of "op-ed" page for our site, and most of the posters seem to like the idea of dropping in and talking about whatever's on the table at that particular time. Do keep coming in, I have read your posts and like your approach.

And isn't our Bill doing a knock-out job?

Lorrie

You have no idea how important this site is to a hearing impaired person. I have always been a talker extrodinaire..and loved the conversations from the past. Alas those I would chat with find it difficult to truly have a discussion when I have to interrupt and ask them to repeat. It is tedious for both of us and impossible when there are more than two.

So Curious Minds is my way of keeping up with what everyone else is thinking..It is truly a wonderful way to do that as well. As Bill said some posts he read more than once...NOW you cant do that in a conversation with your family or friends.

Here you are the best substitute for those friends and family I have ever found..THANK YOU ...

By the way I had some trouble with my phone line and had to call the phone company. Of course what I reached was the automated system which for the most part I cant use. Most of the people doing this do not have distinct voices and speak too fast. They mumble and hurry along and on matter how many times you repeat it doesnt clear.

After I finally reached a REAL PERSON ( an heavens they are out there not just robots) I was given a number that I feel must be considered classified information. Perhaps I did recieve when I sweetly said not to supply a number must be against the disabled and handicap laws. IN ANY CASE I NOW HAVE A NUMBER that will reach a REAL PERSON! That is the second time this past week I have been able to obtain a special number that will connect to a real person..SO if any of you have a similiar problem ASK and may you find it helpful.

God Bless you all ...and am looking forward to the new topic....anna

If I remember correctly, Lorrie, Pat is not putting up this new discussion until 10:30pm. So will speak to you tomorrow!

Welcome to you all! Pull up a chair and join in.

What would your mother say?
Road rage, foul language,collapsing customer service, bleating cell phones----the United States has become the “land of the rude,” according to to the research group Public Agenda.

Seventy-nine percent of the 2,000 interviewed by telephone in January said a lack of respect and courtesy in U.S. society is a serious problem.. Do you agree?

Some people blame overcrowding at malls, stadiums, and other public places. Others believe that Americans’ increasingly busy lives are making them ruder.

I can remember a time when a woman of the age I am now, would be treated with consideration and courtesy, from removing mens’ hats indoors to giving up their seat on a bus. My mother would have been horrified if I had addressed any of her friends by their first names.

How do you feel about this?

Lorrie

Just to address some of the items you mention:

I think many of the customs we observed as youngsters, and called manners, were way too formal. Our children and grandchildren are very mannerly, courteous, and respectful, but without the stiff artificiality of some of the earlier generations' customs.

I do confess to a pet peeve of men's wearing hats at a dinner table - at home or in a restaurant. If I see a man my age in a restaurant with a hat on, I feel like going up to him and asking him what his mother would do to him if she could see him. (Not consistent, I know, but we're entitled...)

Overcrowding, haste, instant information, instant gratification - all those things contribute to a lack of courtesy and thoughtfulness.

And that's not even getting to cell phones!

Mary

On the question if I think the current young folks are the worst (or most shocking?) I have to say, no. I wasn't around yet, but I'll bet my mother's age, the terrible flappers, shocked their parents and grandparents more than any other. Can you imagine sweet little ladies like my mother, raised in good, Christian homes, suddenly cutting their hair, raising their skirt nearly to the knee, dancing the Charleston, playing cards, drinking a little "hard likker", maybe smoking, going to coed colleges? It is a wonder the world didn't end then and there. (This was the same mother whom I always considered to be a shy, very innocent, extremely prudish lady.)

Every generation of teen-agers does their best to redefine civilization. Our system of considering sexually mature offspring children and keeping them dependent must force them to rebel in every way they can. They form their own language, change what is acceptable dress, generally try their best to prove they are different from the previous generation - and, of course, much better and wiser.

I have noticed this is primarily directed at their parents' generation more than older ones, so they are often rather comfortable with their grandparents. There is just no need to rebel there (unless they were raised by the grandparents.) So I am much more comfortable with my grandkids and great grandkids than I was with my own teenagers.

I have already been vetoed on this thought but I come from the old school where "children should be seen and not heard." I know that that is a bit rigid but I do not believe that children need to be included and consulted at every turn. My daughter's disagree with me on this point and remind me of how they hated that "children should be seen and not heard" axiom they they were told so often.

My grandchildren are allowed to interrupt an adult because they have said "excuse me." It matters not what conversation is taking place at the time, they get the floor! I think this is an extremly bad idea and have stated my objections firmly.

That is my major criticism. Lord, how bright these young folks are though. Their vocabulary is imaginative, thoughtful and cohesive. I love to talk with these kids but I hate it when they interrupt.

Now there's a subject that will really get a parent's juices flowing. Like Ben said, aren't we glad we're not parents anymore. We've gently mentioned to our children that hair grows out and piercings (while possibly disgusting) will close up in time. Those are certainly minor annoyances (if not carried to extremes).

And, Alf, I'm with you on the interruptions - not that I don't want to hear what they (grands or even other adults) have to say, but it's just plain rude to interrupt. John and I have a system, when someone else is talking and we think of something we want to say, we surreptitiously curl our hand with the little finger sticking out. This reminds us (sometimes) at the next break in the conversation of what we wanted to add.

Mary

Well, just have to get my two cents worth in here. When my now 22 year old grandson was giving his parents a rough time at the age of 15, what did they do? He came to stay the summer with us. We lived 1000 miles away!! Here comes this really sweet young man trying to make a statement. Black clothes, long hair and a slight attitude(although he always respected us). Well, I had already gone through the long hair phase with my two boys and thought that was all that I had to do. Now here's another 15 yr old with long hair and an attitude. Did I learn anything earlier? Nooooooooo! My reactions were much the same about the situation. When my daughter says that we saved this kid's life that summer, I say, "Gee, thanks! For sending me another 15 yr old boy to show me that I still felt exactly the same way that I did 20 years earlier!!" Lord, I have already done this once before!! Life is not fair, is it? And, this sweet young man who is in college and a whiz kid has now offered to be the blue in his sister's wedding. He has bright blue hair! Still rebelling?? Who knows? When I say this is a good kid, I really mean it. He is the one who helped me take of his ill grandfather in 1996 and then helped his grandfather take care of me in 1997. How many teeage boys or girls do you know that would offer to give up their summer to help out their grandparents? Is that an enigma?

Well, hello to you all!

Mary:

I laughed when you mentioned about piercing and am totally in agreement about hats off at the dining table.

Benjamin:

That was a very interesting statement in your Post #273:

"Every generation of teen-agers does their best to redefine civilization. Our system of considering sexually mature offspring children and keeping them dependent must force them to rebel in every way they can. They form their own language, change what is acceptable dress, generally try their best to prove they are different from the previous generation - and, of course, much better and wiser."

I think it explains a lot why we seem to be more comfortable with our grandchildren. Good post.

Andy: At the risk of sounding like an old curmudgeon, I can't help but agree with the "children should be seen and not heard" thing. I remember once when I was trying to give my niece important instructions and her 5 and 6 year olds kept interrupting wanting to be played wih. It was so irritating I could have swatted them, God forbid!

See? That's what I mean. When we object to younger people's behaviour we are immediately labeled as cantankerous, and "typical old farts." Hahaha

Ann, your post was very poignant. It was almost like a story within a story. Your grandson is indeed a rarity.

Lorrie

Well! I live in Miami and it would seem that according to a recent survey this is the capitol of rude drivers. Sometimes as I drive around I do meet a driver who tail gates me or is out of turn at a 4 way stop but then a block or 2 later some driver lets you in when you must navigate around a wreck. When I use the bus younger folk do give up seats to elder people and I am often addressed as Abuella (Spanish for grandmother, I think) or mamnacita. So I am guessing there is a lot of cultural influences here.

Well you all have mentioned my favorite grip. I hated it when my children let the grands interrupt and dominate a gathering. And they did. My son was better at controlling his kids and took them outside if he wanted to discipline or just stop them from trying to be the center of attention. I see that the grandchildren who are now grown are not much better and when they visit with their kids the kids are all that is discussed or visited with. There is no adult interchange at all. I sent a group of great grands out on the porch to play with my frog collect in order to even have 10 minutes to visit with the parents and in short time they were in dragging the parents out side. They couldnt possible act this way at home but maybe? They all of them vie for the attention of the whole room and visit is just bedlam. I do not enjoy it and after I said so I rarely get a visit at my house. I go to see them and they are the same at those visits. Well, they will grow up and perhaps learn control.Faith

I read the articals in the links above. They are very interesting and some of this I had read before in other publications.

No I do not think this is the worst generation. That is one of those words I do hate..like always... for instance if you say "children always interrupt" it really is not a true statement and I myself am guilty. I re read my post and I will admit that what I said is somewhat true. Yet when I go to their home and the children are once included in the greetings and have shown off a little then they go on about their own child play and except for dragging mothers around on occasion they are fine.

I think I was very much closer to my grandmother as a child than any other adult woman in my life. Next in line was my older sister. When my children were growing up they didn't become close to grandparents even though they were around but my kids were respectful and pleasant and did love them but were not really "close." And my grandchildren are much the same, respectful, loving, very kind, will respond if I ask them to do something usually with compliance sometimes not, but are not really close like I was to Nana.

That is not a bad thing but I think it was caused by all the divorces in my family. And one of my grandchildren has every grandparent divorced by the time he grew up on both his mom and dads side. For awhile with remarraige he had grandparents and steps coming out his ears he said. Faith

There is one thing about the present generation I do not approve of and that is the attitude to sexual relationships. Sex is treated no differently from eating say a sandwich. Its instant gratification. We have inherited a generation of women now who are sterile or undergoing fertility treatment. A lot of this is caused by silent STD's causing scarring in the fallopian tubes. I know several young women myself who have this problem.

I was a young mother in the 60's. There were none of my classmates who could not have children. Childlessness was relatively rare.

I also find that children do rule the roost in most homes. I agree with children having plenty of attention and everyone who knows me realises I have a good relationship with my grandchildren. They all love coming here even though I have definate rules. I do not allow the children to interrupt in my home.!

To save problems when I visit my daughter I have an arrangement. One visit I get to talk to my daughter uninterrupted - the kids know this rule. The next week its their turn to monopolise my conversation. Its a compromise!

Carolyn

How could I say the younger generation is worse than my own. I remember in my own way I was a rebel. So when my sons followed the fashion and allowed their hair to grow long ..I said as long as you keep it shampooed I dont care...When my oldest daughter came home with her hair three colors and asked what do you think ? I said It is so YOU..

What I am saying is this when a friend at church complained his son had done a terrible thing by getting his ear pierced and wearing an earring I said Robbing a bank is a terrible thing. Shooting someone is a terrible thing. Beating up someone older or younger is a terrible thing..Wearing an earring is NOTHING ..if he were my son I would tell him ..it looks pretty good but Stay out of my jewelery box and when I found a really gaudy pair of earrings I would have bought them for him.

I never heard the words Children should be seen and not heard. And I never used them ...My youngest son and his wife both had tatoos last year.hers is red rose on her shoulder and he has a wonderful duck in flight...now they are not youngsters ..being 37(son) and 34(daughter in law) I would not get a tatoo but it was their money and their decision so I just admired the handiwork. My youngest daughter had a navel ring for a while..it really annoyed her and she finally removed it ...

My neighbors son whom I helped raise...cut his hair once in a new fashion and then bleached it blond and now has an ear ring not on the lobe but higher on the ear.

We may say all we want but if you read history it was not unusual for men to wear earrings, let their hair grow long, and women often wore gowns so low you could almost see thier navel. I think it is rather funny when they think they are being so "different" and it is really OLD HAT>...

The only thing I truly object to is so many have very low moral standards...they will pay a terrible price for that some day and I wish I could tell them please You have more value as a human being when you insist on being treated respectfully, when you insist on being treated with kindness. I would also like to tell them you cannot win happiness when it is at the cost of another person's misery.

Ah well here I am a senior citizen and I find young people interesting and for the most part polite. One friend who complained when a neighbor who came to visit brought her little boy who did constantly interrupt ..I told her to try chocolate milk and cookies..works most times. and I can tell you I was never told to be quiet when I was a child //polite yes ...there are quite a few of the "older generation" who interrupt conversations and insist on having their way too..

Best I quit ...for now..anna

a very sassy senior

On Ben's comment about treating "sexually mature" offspring as children, it has been my observation that sexual maturity comes earlier than emotional maturity. More often than not, these sexually mature offspring are, in many ways, definitely not adult.

But from what I have read so far in the links given us, it is not really children we are discussing. It is the difference in viewpoints between generations and, I suppose, how one should deal with them. I agree with Anna that adults often make a big deal over things that are not really important. It has been my experience that if we don't make a big fuss over the small things, the younger generation is more likely to listen when it is something important.

The most troubling thing I noted in my initial reading is the "disconnectedness" of the current generation of young adults, the '13th' generation. IMHO, a sense of belonging is essential to mental and emotional health and stability. This is something we older people can help to give to the younger, a sense of being connected. ...Babi

AnnaFair, you Sassy Senior!

I wanted to tell you, after reading your post in a former discussion, about being hearing-impaired, that you are not alone. Isn't it awful to have to keep yelling "HaH?" when someone tries to talk to you? And speaking of the younger generation, I have a terrible time understanding what my great nieces and nephews are saying to me. Children's voices are almost impossible to descern. Even with hearing aides, it's difficult.

Anyway, what you said in your post about "a terrible thing" was very thoughtful. I agree.

Carolyn:

Perhaps setting those rules is the way to go.

Lorrie

My judgements are based on behavior and not on belief.In concluding what is off about the generations since ours , I arrive at the judgement that many among them behave in a manner which shows no respect for themselves -let alone others. Some times the behavior is expressed as coarse language , sometimes as violence , damage to their own bodies and /or attention getting immature behavior,etc.

I conclude that those who behave in those manners learned the behavior due to a lack of mental-societal discipline as they were trained in their youth. I go back to the 1960 s and trace the rise of the SDS and their Port Huron Statement as being THE training ground for permeating the colleges with "my rights' school of thinking , which in turn guided much of following generations' behavior.Subsequent generations' inability to understand that responsibitly is also a legacy is easily traced, IMO.

With ceertain exceptions the misbehaviors were not held to accountability and the cult has grown.We raised 'em -so who is at fault?

Where there is not accountability for behavior , there is a growing trend (among some- in an increasing tide) away from behaviors that support the society (and somtimes harm it significantly).

By not exercising our traditional generational role of "elder advisors" ( and the source of discipline) to our children (whether or not they were willing to accept such advice and oversight) we are reaping what we helped to sow.We and our children are the authors, IMO.

Such ( above) behaviors will ultimately come home to roost in varous forms. Breakdown of stable social structures, increasing serious health problems, young adults w/o the moral fibre to govern are all potential rewards.Can it turn around? Yes. Will it? Who knows?

I married at 15. I went from my parents house to my house. We had four children in four years. I was never a teenager. So, I had my "teens" from my middle 20's to my middle 30's. My children would later tell people that they were so anxious, when they were young, when they brought anyone home, or went with me anywhere--they never knew what I'd be wearing or saying.

I'm here to tell you that the experience "comes over you", the reaching, looking, finding out who you are, experimenting, the whole, confused and wonderful ball of wax. When my children's friends told them, "Your mother wears army boots" they would reply, "It's true! And have you seen that awful peasant skirt she's wearing with them?"

I know the young are a pain, to the heart, the mind, and the pocket book. But most of them turn out well if they are "connected" to family, friends and community. It's the loners that we need to lift up--if we can. They are suffering so. Life is hard. But it is especially hard if you're alone.

I still visit "teenville". It's scary, though. There is no "how to" manual, no road map. You just start at the beginning of whatever and when you get to the end you stop.

HOWZAT

Like you howzat - during my teen years I worked, went to school, took care of my younger pre-school brother and sister, married at almost 19 and had two children by the age of 21 with my third at the age of 26. No 'finding yourself' for most of us.

Of the current 20 and early 30 year olds that I work with I find them to be more conservative than those in their late 40s. My son-in-law owns several computer outlet stores and hires this generation, where as he falls under the age bracket considered the boomers - the difference he notices is they are looking for a greater bonding among their fellow workers and a substitute family in the workplace.

What comes to my mind is this younger generation, in much greater numbers, were brought up in Day Care - I am not faulting this - I am only seeing that it is a possible cause for outcome behavior - the Day Care experience among such a large percentage of this age range would show evidence of - earlier formal education, greater social skills with those of similar age range, a greater practice in competition for attention from either the Day Care worker and in addition, time from busy working parents. A feeling of 'needing more' attention since their childhood days were not surrounded by many family members where someone could be depended on for a fight, a hug, a wrestling match, a cohort in some secret etc.

Their days were surrounded by strangers that they had to make into friends and who they had to appeal to for attention. Quiet manners go un-noticed in a crowd even if it only a crowd of 5 or 6 who are all appealing to a substitute parent or a playmate who is a substitute sibling or cousin. (Since the end of WW2 families have had to move all over for jobs so that there were fewer extended family members. And fewer adult family members to help raise little ones, teach them, share family stories.)

Since there is such a large percentage of these now grown up Day Care kids they establish the behavior pattern for all the rest.

The second thing is this generation experienced more divorced parents as a routine behavior without the guilt and social judgment that was still evident even when boomers were young children. These kids show a greater maturity, some seem to have adjusted and silently feel the pain that all these kids own when they mature. Divorce my be the answer for the adult but it runs havoc to the emotional security of most kids. This generation the percentage of them from a divorced or single parent home represents at least 50% with the youngest of them 60%. With submerged pain is anger and loss of trust - the answer for many is to be more conservative rather than an attitude of independent exploration of life. All young folks are risk takers but this generation has experienced much personal fear and pain therefore they can take risk to another level.

I do not think conservatism is going to fill their void but than it is hard to live with a hole in your heart and that is what these grown kids have as baggage. Another way to cover a hole is the use of drugs or alcohol and the use of both is way up in the younger generation. They are not experimenting as the boomers but are using for its affect.

But thank goodness they are also of a generation that is whistle blowing on child abuse which earlier generations had to live with in silence. Even the type of punishment allowed as classroom control is limited as compared to earlier generations.

My son-in-law has found by offering a family like atmosphere with parent like figures they can turn to for advise is the successful way to keep his employees and keep them happier and therefore more productive - I think part of that success is that so many of them know how to socialize in a new made-up family since that was their childhood experience as a result of both day care and children of divorce and remarriage where they learned the skills needed to the creation of new families that are put together. They have also developed the behavior needed to get attention because in order to get a share of the love they needed they had to go after it.

I see my grands today go through a time of uncertainty if their parents have an argument that they overhear - they ask and act out worried that an argument could mean divorce - they know that there are more kids in their classroom that are from divorced homes than those from a home where divorce is not a concern. Kids talk to each other and all they have heard is the pain shared by these kids from divorced homes.

Now I am not suggesting an artificial clamp down on divorce - but we as a society have a lot to learn about the use or rather mis-use of power, control and addictive behavior which is often the cause of divorce.

I think it is interesting to see that our generation that was all about 'shoulder to the wheel' just to survive produced a generation that wanted to break free and they produced a generation that is more free but wants the comfort of conservative values. And like all past generations they know how to grab attention by acting out what the preceding generations consider outrageous behavior.

Ahhhh, Barbara, your posts are always right on the mark! Having grown up in a boarding house plus seeing my mother widowed twice before she was 36 and for me loosing a father twice before 14, made me know just how to gain attention. You are so right!!

I, too, have some rules at my house. 1. Wash your hands before eating or touching my kitchen or touching my computer or desk and after using the bathroom. 2. Grama doesn't do MacDonald's!! Other than that, lets have a good time. 3. No sassiness here, my friends, as we will not tolerate it.

By the way, I have two sets of grans. The oldest ones are 24 and 21, the youngest are 6rs down to 2yrs . When we decided to live in Ohio after college, one of the reasons was the nearness of grandparents. We moved here again in 1998 to be nearer the newest young ones as I am a firm believer in children having a close relationship with their grandparents. For me, it was part of growing up and I want them to have the same advantage. It does take a village to raise a child!!

As with all generations there is always a gap in understanding. I think parents expect to instill their own values, morals, and ethics in their children. When it appears as if it isnt happening it is disapointing and creates that so called Gap. There may be a big disturbance if the younger generation changes a lot in a short time and all of society may set up a whining about those kids. I imagine when all those little kids left home to go on the crusades there was some howling in the huts of Europe.Even Socrates did complain.Yet as time goes by the child will grown to middle age and begin to turn into their mothers and fathers with some new adaptions. And so on down through time.

I think I am more like my Grandparents in my ethics and moral values than anyone, especially now that I am about the age they were when I remember them best.

Barbara's post is excellent and I do think there was a rapid change when divorce became so common. Now we have many types of families, and we have come to accept them though I still wince at the fact that my own family had divorce since 1905 when a set of grandparents divorced. So my Dad was raised in a single parent home by a working mom until he was a middle school boy. Those 1918 kids were pretty wild and parents were very upset at their dress, dance, drinking, and petting in cars for the first time in history. Those Flappers!!!!

My kids were part time nursery school kids but thank goodness it was short periods of time and usually I had home care for them with some one coming into the house. This was somewhat better I believed. Faith

Wow! This subject has really stirred up opinions, hasn't it? Wonderful!

Gorman: I can't help but agree that so much of the present unruliness of the young people we see seemed to start back in the 60's, and the trend still continues. I would like to have seen a more positive outlook, however, but as you said in your post, :Who knows?"

Howzat: I like your phrase, "the road to Teenville."

Ann: It must have been bitterly lonely for you at times, Thank you for sharing that with us. Great rules you set, too. And two sets of grands!

Barbara: Your post was great, and I do agree that divorce plays a strong part in children's behaviour. aI can't say from first-hand, but I do see the difference in the children of my divorced family member and friends.

Lorrie

In some respects I really am not able to respond here with personal experience, because the only two children I ever had were killed in a horrible automobile accident when they were six and five. Although it was many years ago, and the hurt has lessened a bit with time, there isn't a day goes by that I don't think about what might have been. I always thought I would have made a wonderful "grandma", but apparently it was not to be. So I can't really say too much about having suffered the pangs of teenage rebellions, although I have seen in in other parents.

Lorrie

Lorries post makes our worries about the generation gap pal in comparison. I resolve again to count my blessings.

Carolyn

I dont know all four of my children were in 3 year kindergarten or whatever it was called. I was a stay at home mom..but we were Military and they grew up without having any of their cousins, aunts and uncles and my mother as their only living relative near. Since their father was often away on missions for the most part I WAS IT!

They did have Sunday School each Sunday...Scouts when they were old enough, visits from whatever relative that could come our way once in awhile...We did have close ties and have maintained them for over 50 years in some cases with church friends, old neighborhood associates and military friends.

When we moved to Va we stayed ...and for that I am most grateful All of my children have close ties with the young people they grew up with and to the parents of the those young people. They are included in the activities of those families and they are included in the activities of my family.

They married people who also came from intact families. Each minister mentioned how unusual it was to have two families intact when they held pre marital meetings before the weddings.

As a family we get together and celebrate birthdays, anniversaries and as many holidays as possible. Some are jointly shared with the in laws...most are divided..all of them will come to my house for Christmas Eve or Christmas day ..same with other holidays we share our children with each other grateful for the love and support they recieve from the extended family.

I know from what I hear from others how blessed we are to have the kind of relationship we have.

Although the news is full of young people involved with drugs, etc I really dont know any personally ...All of the young people I come in contact with through the church, the children of my neighbors and my friends..seem to be responsible , law abiding and civic minded. I am speaking here mostly of those from about 15 - to 45.....

Some of them have been involved in divorces, but they all care for thier children and do the best they can.

There was a time when we children were cared for and raised by not only extended family but my neighbors. How many courtesy aunts and uncles we had as children...so many and they served to protect us when we were playing in the neighborhood, walking to school or wherever they saw us. Now everyone is hidden in air conditioned houses with a TV going...I miss the warm summer evenings outdoors when we played hide and seek ,told ghost stories , or picked clover and wove coronets for our hair. I buy my grandchildren yo yos and jacks and teach them some of the old games ...which they like by the way...

Being only 5' I had to be creative when I cared for my children knowing from the cradle I would never be able to physically control them..I made my stand only about the important things and ignored all of typical childhood and teenage behavior.. As my brothers and I were taught to be responsible so were mine. They were given lots of love, lots of caring, lots of directions and Glory Be they became the adults I prayed for.

BUT it takes time and effort ..which meant we didnt get the boat we wanted, gave up the sport cars we coveted, bought station wagons and kept them until they absolutely had to be replaced, paid for braces instead of buying something we really didnt need, delayed buying color TVS and never had cable until the youngest was almost out of High School..We expected them to be honest and showed we were ...I believe in my heart there are lots of people who have raised thier families the same way ( I know them) it is just not interesting to talk about so we hear all the sad and terrible tales and after awhile we begin to believe they are the majority. Perhaps I am mistaken but I sincerely hope I am not...

anna

Oh, Lorrie, I guess I didn't put that very well, did I? There was no loneliness at our house because my parents started a boarding house in 1938 just to keep up with their bills. My father was an accountant for Pure Oil, the pay was low hence the boarding house. The biggest amount of work fell to my mom but we all helped out. It was great fun as most of our boarders were young hockey players who treated my brother and me as siblings. We were so spoiled!! Free tickets to games, being taught to skate at the arena, being taken to morning practice and carried around by the players on the ice, whizzing up and down the rink, being given little souveniers from out of town games(Hershey's games rewarded us the best). And, when a stick was broken, they cut them down for us and our friends. We had more than enough attention! When summer arrived and the players returned to their homes(mostly in Canada), we rented rooms to Indiana State Fair goers during the month of August or September, many times sharing the well padded dining room floor with children we didn't even know. Similar to a slumber party. We thought most people lived as we did, never occurred to us that only the kids in our neighborhood knew what was up when it came to boarders.

If you can't figure out just where in this Generation picture you are, maybe the following will help:

You're Lost Between A Baby Boomer And A Gen-X'er If...
You remember when Jordache jeans were cool.
In your fifth grade class picture you were wearing an Izod shirt with the collar up.
You know by heart the words to any Weird Al Yankovic song.
You remember Friday Night Videos before the days of MTV.
A predominant color in your childhood photos is plaid.
You remember when music that was labeled alternative, really was alternative.
You took family trips BEFORE the invention of the minivan.
You rode in the back of the station wagon and you faced the cars behind you.
You remember Friday Night Videos before the days of MTV.
A predominant color in your childhood photos is plaid.
You remember when music that was labeled alternative, really was alternative.
You took family trips BEFORE the invention of the minivan.
You rode in the back of the station wagon and you faced the cars behind you.
You're starting to believe now that maybe having the kids go to school year round wouldn't be such a bad idea after all.
You were unsure if Diet Coke would ever catch on after all.
You know all the words to the double album set of Grease.
You ever had a Dorothy Hamill haircut.

Lorrie

I must be older than a Baby Boomer. I don't remember any of those things.

Mary

Gee, I don't remember any of those things either.

Well my daughter is 60 and she does remember this kind of stuff but vaguely and my younest is 51 and she was a boomer for sure. I was so busy with raising the family I didnt really know too much about their "culture." Except for Elvis whom I loved and then later the Beatles whom I loved. Faith

FlaJean - I do hope your screen name refers to your being from Florida. Otherwise, there's a major coincidence here. One of my dearest friends is named Flo Jean (no appreviations or nicknames - that's her given name).

Mary

I am a baby boomer

Carolyn

What's a baby boomer? Tee hee!! Must not be in my time slot!! I do have a boomer and a gen-x'er around here somewhere in this place called "life".

'Feels like stepping into a different age. I continue to lament the loss of the Glenn Miller band and the Dorsey brothers. All following seems to relate to noise

Zwyram, Yes it does mean Florida Jean.

Yes I miss them and many others and while Mairzy Doats was rather wild for our day it was also catchy and the music wasnt bad...I can sing hundreds of songs..excuse I cant sing but I can pretend I am singing and I remember the lyrics to literally hundreds of songs from the "good ole days" now I often wonder will today's children be singing the songs from thier "good ole days" ?

anna

Sure, the kids of today will remember and sing and play their music. The music of today is much more innovative than the Swing music of my growing up time. That music was "arranged" and left no room for improvisation, though a daring few musicians went off on some pretty good riffs. Today it's anything goes, and the capability of electronic instruments as opposed to acoustical ones amazes me with its versatility.

The Swing music of my high school years lasted a very, very brief time. Improvisational music lasts much longer. Witness what's called Dixieland music, which was almost entirely improvised over a few basic chords. Those of you who know Dixieland music also know that the lyrics were often as shocking, or moreso, than what we hear today.

What I like in jazz today are small groups, trios, quartets and musicians like Stanley Cowell, Alan Broadbent, Chick Corea, Diana Krall, Michel Camilo, Gary Burton, Susana Baca and others, many out of the Berklee School of Music in Boston. That's the kind of music I'd pay money to hear, if I had any! I can't stick with any one era in music, be it classical or jazz. Surely there's somebody out there who feels the same way I do.

Music should not be a generational thing. My kids grew up singing around the piano while I played, learning the music of my time while I learned the music of theirs. Now I'm learning the music of my grandchildren. It's fun, and something we share.

Mal

I'm pretty much with Mal concerning music. Good music is good music - and really the only way to judge for sure what is "good" is to wait long enough to see its "staying power". A lot of what our kids listened to in the 60s and 70s is long gone - and a lot of the rest is now what our grandkids call "elevator" music. My grands are actually great fans of Tony Bennett and Jimmy Buffett. Go figure!

Mary

In the event posters may not be aware, there's a station (it's URL is)

theclassicalstation.com

that is 24/7/365,totally w/o commercials and available to any radio or tv station w/o charge.Details on their web site. All the station manager must do is contact them and request the service.

My understanding is that they provide ~ 4 streaming formats (whatever those are) and can also be picked up on one's pc.The station is 100% contribution supported ( no gov't money)

My kids like the music we liked as teens. My granddaughter likes all sorts of music including classical. Her parents expose her to everything. She does not like her fathers Phil Collins CD's LOL! She is four years old. Loves ballet music.

Carolyn

In this arena, my only major "gap" is the current generation's love affair with the boombox. A kid in a closed car passing by on the street can rattle my windows with his boombox. With my hearing disabilities, even a heavy background beat drowns out the music for me. Our church repertoire includes some of these from the popular Australian group, and when they are being played I can't understand a word of it or catch the melody. If this was the only "gap" between generations we wouldn't be worrying ourselves over it. The gap always seems to be between the parent's generation and the children's generation, and the obvious answer would be that each generation feels the need to establish it's independence by thinking and acting differently than their parents. That's why so many of the outward displays jump a generation. If your is conservative, it's probably because his Dad was liberal; so your rejection of Dad's views puts you and Grandad on common ground! Every generation has felt itself to be very modern, and the contemporary mores to be something the older generation could not understand. Yet I am firmly convinced that a thousand years ago young people were saying, "AFTER ALL, IT IS THE 11TH CENTURY!!" ...Babi

Gorman, and Anna Fair:

I'm with you on the affection for Big Band music--to me that was the way to go when we were in our teens and twenties.

Mal, what a great way to have the whole family participate, and what a wonderful way for them to make their choices.

zwram, and Babi:

Your posts were very concise and matter-of-fact, and I feel the same way about "boom boxes." Once, when I asked my nieces to turn down the volume on their stereo, and wondered why they had to have it so loud, they replied, "But then you can't hear the beat!"

Lorrie

I suspect what they really mean is that they can't feel the beat. You can always hear it, but the kids' like feeling the beat in their bones...literally. I'm sure a psychologist could explain it to us, but it seems to me that they become caught up in the beat and feel...I don't know....bigger,larger, more powerful?? ...Babi

I have to keep reminding myself that as far as the generation gap is concerned, we didn't bring the baby boomers into any kind of paradise either. One of the first things our kids learned in school was how to take cover under their little desks as part of a nuclear blast drill. It wasn't long before our kids got the picture that their life could end abruptly at most any time so why not live it up and get your kicks while the world is still intact. Is it any wonder they sought to distance themselves from the generation that created this kind of environment for them to grow up in? That's what purple spiked hair and belly button rings are all about!! Just healthy examples of their disdain for our lifestyle and what we failed to provide for them. My wife and I managed to raise four healthy decent kids of whom we are proud and happy to call our own. We feel blessed to successfully help them through the trials of teen-age. But here's the downer: The first three to marry wound up getting divorced. I would have bet the house and given odds that would never happen. But it did happen. I can only reason that generation has a different mind set than does ours.

"...Is it any wonder they sought to distance themselves from the generation that created this kind of environment for them to grow up in?...."

I have aproblem w/ the logic, ( no offense intended). Followed to its logical conclusion, we should have come back from the wars killing everything that displeased us.

I would argue that the difference was cultural training.

So many of my friends and contemporaries bemoan the fact that their grandchildren and some of their children even, have no sense of money management and seem to "live on plastic" as they say.

Falling into debt at a young age used to be more difficult. Credit was something to be earned, and it usually took time. Moreover, debt was incurred chiefly as a result of major purchases. "Fifty years ago, if you wanted to borrow money you put on your suit and tie and explained to a banker why you needed to go into debt," says Allen Rosenthal, a San Francisco bankruptcy attorney. "You had to have a good reason. But now, people go into debt one pizza at a time."

Do you find this to be so? Is it fair to say that all of us of our generation learned the value of a dollar from the Great Depression?

Lorrie

Laselburn, you hit one reason right on the nose. The fear that they lived with in the '50's and '60's and the learning to hide under their desks and the push to build bomb shelters in all of our homes. My daughter's high school had for their graduating motto: We're not here for long, we're just here for a good time!

But, now they will tell you that because of all the things that they tried out--like drugs and sex--alcohol--they can spot just about anything that their kids try and warn them away from getting into trouble--ruining their bodies and brains. Now, they are not saying that what they did was good, just that it made them very aware.

My ears are so sensitive to high, loud sounds that I have given up on public concerts. I've even tried ear plugs. So now I enjoy CD's where I can adjust the volume. For a while a few rock stars were warning young people about losing their hearing but the warnings apparently fell on "deaf" ears.

Lorrie--There certainly has been a change in credit and its extension to young people. Credit cards in high school and college don't seem to teach them much more than getting more credit cards as they age. I have long been curious to know what the accumulated debt on credit cards is for the entire country.

I remember when I first heard someone say that their Visa was "maxed out" and the person pulled out a MasterCharge card instead. I had a friend, old enough to qualify for senior net, who spent several years moving debt balances around until she finally boxed herself into a corner.

Credit companies solicit new people by sending offers to homes on a weekly (at least here) basis.

Which brings me to a point of sorts. I think that the big difference between kids today and kids when I was young is Wealth. We didn't have any--or only a few did--and there is too much wealth now. Think about how much it costs to have body parts pierced. Where do you suppose 14 year olds get the money to finance such procedures?

Credit is a very desirable commodity when used carefully. But credit cards give far too much freedom to spend to a large segment of the young people of today who wind up deeply in debt and paying attrocious interest rates for long periods of time. Credit cards make it too easy for people to make purchases and deliberately so in order to generate debt that in turn generates those high, high interest payments. Years ago many States had usery laws that made it illegal to charge more than 12.5% interest on any debt. The Banking industry saw fit to have those laws repealed and from that point on, the credit card people could sock it to the unfortunates who accumulated their debt. There is a current commercial being televised where a guy starts off by saying some thing like this: " my credit card debt was in terrible shape!" and then goes on to tell about consolidating his debt to get his monthly payments down to a manageable figure. Poor sucker, he just created more debt! And he seems happy about it! Lorrie, I think you are correct in assumming that those of us who lived through the Great Depression have a greater respect for both money and debt.

Back in the 1970s, when our daughters were teenagers, the only credit cards we had were gasoline cards. As each of the girls turned 16 and got her driver's license, we provided her with a gasoline card. We did not want her to ever be in a situation in a car where she needed something for the car and could not get it because of not-enough-money. These were not their own accounts, but cards on our accounts. None of them ever abused this privilege.

However, as has been said, it's a different world now. We heard a program recently (probably on NPR) that was discussing marketing and how much was marketed to teenagers. The statement that absolutely floored us was that teenagers had something like $300-400 per MONTH (!) (emphasis mine) for discretionary spending. Our immediate question was "Where do they get that money?" And the answer is obviously - from their parents. 'Nuff said!

Mary

Since I am hearing impaired..a hereditary condition..the sound from boomboxes and from car stereos is more than a little annoying. When yuo say they want to feel the beat you may be overlooking the fact long exposure to loud noise of anykind affects hearing. Perhaps they are playing music loud because they cant hear it as well as they should.

About 12 years ago my husband and I attended a dance sponsored by one of the organizations we belong to. The mix of attendees ranged from senior citizens to those in their 20's. Our table was farthest away from the stage and the musicians. The music, especially the drums was so loud we could not carry on a conversation ..NOT AT ALL and when we left after about 2hrs I literally could not hear any sound at all until the next morning.

A few years ago I read an article saying many young people who were trying to enter one of the military branches were failing because of thier hearing loss. I am not sure what the percentage was the number was high. Since my loss was herediatary and all of my family suffered from it in some degree..one of my brothers was so severe at 30 he wore hearing aids and it has been 40 years since he has used a telephone. When I visited him about 8 years ago it was very difficult to carry on a conversation. Not only because of his loss but because if you think about how many new words have entered our vocabulary since we were young he had no idea how they were pronounced. His job thank goodness was more about writing than speaking but it was tedious trying to figure out what he was saying.

As far as children learning to hide under the desk in case of a atomic attack..that was not my worry as a child..but instead we had any number of doomsday cults predicting the end of the world. My mother was so matter of fact about that..saying she had heard all the same predictions in her youth and she was still here and in any case if they were right we couldnt do anything about it so yes I had to go to school.....

When my children worried about an atomic attack and neighbors were building bomb shelters I refused to even consider one..telling my children I wasnt prepared to live in the kind of world that would remain after a nuclear war...when we moved here to Virginia my younger children came home to tell me we lived in prime area for a nuclear attack and emulated my mother and said Thank goodness because I want to be among the first to go...I am not sure why that satisfied them but I think since I refused to be afraid they werent going to be afraid either.

Someone mentioned the music of the 50's and 60's are no longer with us and most of the musical groups arent either. When our children were little and we traveled we sang and sang but I dont hear my grandchildren singing any of the songs that are on MTV or records. And the records my children buy..the youngest is 35 are not the hard rock or rap music ..it is new but still similiar to the music of my youth.

Thank goodness my children seem to have good marriages. Ranging from 25 years anniversary to ten years with two inbetween. They own their own homes ..have good jobs and all are active in the churches of their choice. They also married someone who came from unbroken homes. I believe we set a good example for them but that doesnt always count either so I am just grateful and thankful that they have good marriages and pray they will all grow old together. None married young...25 being the youngest age and 30 the oldest. And the people they married were close in age to themselves...I dont know whether that made a difference or not...and who knows what the future will bring...

Credit cards I just cant believe...I have a couple to use in an emergency and I keep getting little notes telling me I am now eligible for up to 30,000 credit line...The ones I have I have set a limit ...I have notified the companies I dont wish to have a greater credit limit than 5,000 on one and the other one has a 1,000 limit...I have no idea how my children manage their credit ...I dont ask ...but at least they are buying a home and keep their cars as long as possible. They have managed to pay for continuing education and and that is a good sign. They dont try to borrow from me another good sign.,

I am sure my parents worried about us when we were growing up but they would be proud to know all six of their children married and stayed married except for one and that marriage lasted 20 years and neither my brother or the woman he married ever married again. Except for one all of thier grandchildren are still married to the original spouse. The first great grandchild married last year at 26...

As a people we have accepted a world where beautiful language has disappeared and the foulest terms are used daily on records, movies and tvs. Parents have been sold a bill of goods where they think they should be friends with their children. My youngest complained about that when she was teenager, telling me one of her friends mother was like a friend to her and wished I would be the same. My reply ..You will have hundreds perhaps thousands of friends in your lifetime but you have only one mother and I AM IT and I intend to act like a mother. If it turns out we are friends as well that is good but you will always know you have a mother. She took me out to lunch last week and we had a wonderful conversation and she said it was so good to have a mother who was a friend...Today she is coming over to weed my garden for me and do some work around the house I cant do anymore...So she is not only my daughter but also a good friend.

Sorry for the length but there were 13 posts...and they all made me think about where we are today and our hope that the next generation will survive and find themselves worrying about their childrens generation.

anna

I am/was a musician. I was surrounded by horns, drums, and played as loudly as possible while marching with a piccolo. My ears are still pretty good - use to be extremely sensitive, but then I have never tolerated amplified music. I have never understood the desire so many folks seem to have for amplification beyond that which is necessary to balance soft and loud instruments (like small amplification for solo guitars and softer human voices, or solo violins or flutes with a band.) If I had my way, all amplified music or speech which can be heard more than a block away would be banned nationwide, period.

On the subject of not being able to hear, what I usually can't hear in rock is the words. Why should I be subject to the screaming violence of what someone else thinks is music when I can't understand the words? I can always listen to really good music with words I can't understand by playing some opera, so why bother with annoying, repetitive, amplified junk?

Anna, I think you made an excellent point in your post. (Many, actually, but one in particular caught my eye.) Don't most children take their cue on how to react to circustances from their parents? If the parents are unafraid and refuse to panic, the children can be unafraid also. Hasn't it been demonstrated time and again that the circumstances of a child's life are not as important as the love, confidence and support of the parents?

I feel that the best road to closing of gaps between generations is that same pattern of love and support, with confidence that this young person will do just fine. That applies even if this member of the younger generation is not doing so fine now. It is an enormous help to them if their family believes they can make it and overcome whatever holds them back. ...Babi

I think the best way to overcome a generation gap is to talk to kids. Get to know them and what they think and like. You might be surprised to find they're not so different from what you were when you were their age.

Mal

This doesn't make a point, but it kind of fits the subject of the generations. Yesterday I was visiting with a woman who had just returned from her great granddaughter's high school graduation. Her grandson and family had a hot tub at their home. My friend said, "First my great granddaughter and her friend got in, wearing these very itty bitty bikinis that barely covered anything. Then my granddaughter-in-law got in. She had a two piece suit that came up a little higher. My daughter, the grandmother, got in and she had a modest onepiece suit. I didn't feel like changing, but if I had, my suit would have had a skirt on it."

This conversation came about after another friend told how she remembered the first time her father went swimming without wearing a top. (And after that, her mother wouldn't go to the beach with them.)

Until I was about 25, I didn't even have a checking account. I paid cash for everything. (Here in Chicago there are places called currency exchanges, where you can pay utility bills, etc.) I once visited a store and paid $700 cash for a stereo set. The woman I was living with laughed and said, "Nobody does that except gangsters".

Today I use plastic quite a bit, but they are mostly debit cards, meaning that the money is already in the bank and no interest is involved. Obviously, not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to do that. But there's no question that credit cards are overused, often frivolously, and that younger people often don't seem to understand or care about the interest penalty.

We have credit cards, and we use them - especially when we travel, BUT we pay them in full every month, and the only cards we have are those that don't charge an annual fee. I guess when they start charging a fee for paying the bill in full every month, we might consider cutting them up.

We finally learned to use an ATM machine (to our kids'amusement) when we started to travel out of the country. That's absolutely the best way to get cash in a foreign currency - ATMs are everywhere, you don't have to wait for a bank to open, you get the very best exchange rate, the fees for "away" use is much less than the charge for cashing travelers' checks, and you can get small amounts so you don't have a lot of left-over currency that you can't use. We haven't used debit cards yet - but we may do that someday, too.

Re Music: When the girls were growing up, they frequently heard me say "I don't object to the music you play, it's the volume at which you play it." The rule in our house was - if Mom can hear it outside your room, it's too loud. But I got my pay-back. Kate (#3 daughter) and I got into my car. I had had the NPR station on, and had the volume up sort of loud before - I was the only one in the car at the time. Kate smirked and said...You guessed it... "Mom, I don't object to the music you play, it's the volume at which you play it." I laughed so hard, I couldn't drive for a while. I told her she had obviously been waiting for 20 years to give that one back to me.

Mary

Have any of you seen the TV commercial showing the couple, who had just received a pre-approved credit card in the mail, discussing the idea of taking a cruise, having an expensive dinner out, etc? I like the ending where the wife says, "Do you know what I really want? A house!" And she hands her husband the scissors to cut the card. Now that is a responsible message.

Lorrie

Lorrie, That is a responsible message. I like it too.

About 40 years ago we were living in California and applied for our first credit card -- Bank America. It was denied. The reason -- we hadn't borrowed any money, and therefore they didn't know what kind of risk we were. My husband immediately went to the bank, borrowed $200 and paid it back within a month or so. We reapplied and got the card.

I think that now there are a low of people with credit who were poor credit risks to begin with.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I feel that the present generation of people doesn't have the same feeling of personal responsibility as their parents. I remember there was a time when, if someone was forced to declare bankruptcy, a feeling of shame came along with it. And, in that time, one's credit after bankruptcy was ruined forever.

Lorrie

In New Zealand bankruptcy is still quite a disgrace. I used to be a mortgage broker and once you were made personally bankrupt even after being discharged, there would have to be a full investigation into the reasons for the bankruptcy before any lending took place again. If the person had been irresponsible with handling of money no loan would be likely to be forthcoming ever. However if someone else was responsible such as a company going belly up and causing an individual to go bankrupt this was looked at in a different light. If you are a bankrupt you cannot leave the country without permission from the court, you cannot run a cheque account or get credit of any kind. The court will effectively be in charge of your personal finances til you are discharged which is some years.

Carolyn

Beware WHERE you use your debit card--the magnetic strip on the back of it is a direct link to your bank account, after you add your pin number. Some ATM machines are PRIVATELY owned, like at 7-11, grocery stores and such. The machines can be programed (and sometimes are) to store the information on the magnetic strip, plus your pin number, to be later used to strip your bank account clean.

Use ATM machines only at places you trust, bank drive ups and the like. Use your debit card with caution, ONLY at places you trust, and never let a debit card leave your hands. YOU swipe it through, YOU type in the pin number.

Also, criminals are now using binoculars to watch folks making phone card calls. That way they get the private number you use.

HOWZAT

Howzat:

Good Heavens, that certainly is a reflection on what kind of society le live in these days, isn't it?

Lorrie

Howzat: Thanks for that tip regarding debit cards. I've been using one to buy gas, simply because the debit card is handy, in my wallet. The gas credit cards have to be fished out of the glove compartment. Some gas station machines ask for your debit card PIN, others don't. I don't understand why. In any event, I won't use the debit card at gas stations anymore.

The problem with debit cards is that they are not covered by the same law as credit cards. In other words, if someone runs up a bundle on your debit card, you could be responsible for a lot more than the $50 you would be if it were a credit card. My bank was sending up ATM/Debit combined, but gave me just an ATM card when I told them I didn't want a debit card.

The following article about teens and what they know or do not know about credit and finances was in this morning's local paper. One hopes the quote is not indicative of all teens.

http://www.semissourian.com/story.html$rec=76289

"I ain't thought about Social Security 'cause I want to be a rapper," he said. "I'm gonna make so much money I won't need retirement."

Don't leave any credit cards in your glove compartment, or anywhere in your car. Choose a gas card or two that you use most frequently and keep them in your wallet, or use a Visa or Mastercard to buy gas. These will slide through the machine on the pump the same as your gas cards.

HOWZAT

howzat: Thanks again. My debit card is Visa, but I realize that you mean credit card (for buying gas).

Does anyone know: Back in the '20s, if people went on a long road trip, how did they get money? No credit cards, no ATMs, and of course nobody would cash a personal check because they didn't know you. I presume American Express and others were selling traveler's checks back then, that could be cashed at any bank?

I don't know about travelers' checks - when they became available, but I know money belts were common. Or there was the hidden purse idea. Cornelius Otis Skinner wrote a great bit about those in Our Hearts were Young and Gay. She and her friend wore hidden purses hanging inside their skirts. I think it was while they were dancing on the ship to Europe that the full purses started swinging away and bumping into the men.

In Little Britches, Moody (If I remember right) wrote about buying pants that were a few inches too long, then rolling some bills up in the cuffs.

Many ways of hiding money were devised and many people were robbed anyway.

ATTENTION, EVERYONE!

LOOK IN THE HEADING ABOVE, AND YOU WILL SEE DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF VARIOUS GENERATIONS. CAN YOU SEE YOURSELF IN ANY ONE OF THESE CATEGORIES? PLEASE COMMENT.

LORRIE

Generally I do see resemblences to my family. With many overlaps of course. And what they call X'ers is way off as there may be some of those people like depicted and of course we all were exposed to the media stuff. And what about 1980 to 2002. We have a group of 21 year olds entering college and work market that are a wonderful group of kids. I think most of th e so called xrs were too. Faith

I fit in the silent generation, supposedly, though I rarely have been silent unless I am asleep. I would characterize us as hopeful and survivors. Hopeful, because things started out lousy for us, but started looking up about 1939 as the preliminaries to WWII brought work, then the end of the war, etc. Because there were so few of us (the deprecion brought on lots of birth control,) we had little competition for good jobs, cheap housing, etc. We may have been worriers because our parents were often worried when we were kids. But we are successful survivors and quite sure of ourselves as older adults.

Birth control had a big effect on Generation X, too. From 1967, the size of classes dropped by half in our local grade school. The pill gained popularity about 1961 and the effect was a dramatic drop in the birth rate, so again, more spoiled only kids, smaller class sizes, more attention and less community support for kids. Because women were finally able to enter the work force more easily, they had other priorities than just their kids.

John and I are of the Silent Generation (1934, 1936), and we pretty much fit the description (except for the divorce). Our girls were born from 1956-1961, so technically are Baby Boomers (even the youngest would fit more there than in the 13Rs). They have a great deal of self-esteem, but don't really fit into the self-indulgent mode. The mothers (3 of them) all work full time, but are very family oriented, and have raised a pretty good crop of youngsters.

One of the biggest changes between the Silents and the Boomers, to me, was the birth control pill. It gave our daughters options that women in my generation and those before didn't have....options and some problems and responsibilities, too.

We saw a program years ago for supervisors about generational differences as they related to the workplace. The theme was that workers reacted based on attitudes formed when they were 10 years old. The example used was that if a supervisor wanted to discipline a man (it WAS a LONG time ago) who was in his 50s, i.e., had been raised during the Depression and WW II, the supervisor should make him stay off work for a few days. Conversely, a post-war-born man would not consider staying home a few days as discipline, but as a gift, so he should have to do some extra work. Not uniformly true, of course, but close enough.

Mary

My parents were GI generation, born in 1903 and 1905. By the time of Pearl Harbor, my father (the younger one) was already 36 and was never in danger of being drafted. Though he didn't need the money, he worked nights at a defense plant helping build gliders (so important on D-Day).

I remember him saying that in the depression, men were grateful for a job, any job. (Of course, in my youth, all you had to do was read the want ads. The pay might be skimpy--my first job paid 75c an hour--but depression-era folks would have leaped for it.)

I was born in '33, my folks' only creation to be born. (There were, I'm told, four abortions.)

I have been summoned to lunch. Back later.

zwyram:

That was a very interesting anecdote you posted about generational diffeences, and the various perceptions of "punishment." It's fascinating to note how what one age's "punishment" can be seen as a reward, and how another age group could deem it as a rebuke.

Ben, I suppose you and I are of the same age group, and I tend to agree with what you say. Apparently birth control made a huge difference, and I think it was after the acceptance of "the pill" that so many sexual changes took place.

Lorrie

On Generation X:

"13 ERs" are survivors of what the adult world has left behind. Forced to grow up fast and overloaded with information, this generation finds it hard to understand what is truth, right from wrong, or how to achieve success in their lives. "13 ERs" are confronted with drug addiction, AIDS, sexual freedom, uncontrollable violence, educational requirements, and environmental and world problems created by past generations. This is the odd generation, born on "Friday the Thirteenth", or the generation "cross-out" with a capital "X".

Somehow, I find this above statement to be unrelentingly sad.

Lorrie

I don't much fit the Silent Generation's description. While I was fairly silent about McCarthyism (which I opposed) and the civil rights movement (which I favored), as a Korean War veteran I was loudly opposed to the Vietnam War. I signed newspaper ads and joined several of the marches on Washington. This began in '66--even before Jane Fonda, I think. I just didn't see--still don't--that this country was threatened by or had any vital interest in Vietnam's fate. Certainly no interest worth 58,000 American lives and who-knows-how-many Vietnamese. I was appalled when two cheerleaders for that war were nominated for President in 1968.

Back in my Army days, we had classes called TI&E (troop information and education), intended to expose the unwashed to national and international issues. This was in the days when Taiwan was generally called Free China (or some such euphemism) and China was called Red China. I spoke out, in front of the whole company, saying that our failure to recognize "mainland" China made no sense--that we were sticking our heads in the sand. Needless to say, I took some heat later--mostly from sergeants, not officers. About 20 years later, that old "Red China" foe, Nixon, made my view respectable.

Men of my generation married around age 23. I married at age 42. I like to say it took that long to find a woman who could stand me.

Don't understand the term "13 ER". Will someone explain?

about my "G.I. Generation" that I hesitate about any more expounding on it. Except to say, possibly, that I wouldn't trade generations with the current contemporary one with all the problems they face. I can't imagine facing the process, as do young people today, of buying a home whose inflated values require a staggering mortgage with equally staggering monthly payments. Except for the fact that my home is paid for, I could not afford to buy a home in my neighborhood. That is tragic! There are many things I don't adhere to in the present generation lifestyle but I have to give them credit for guts when it comes to living in a inflation generated economy and buying inflation driven goods and services. Boy, they are not afraid of incurring debt! I hope that some of them will someday own their house but gosh, the odds are against that happening are pretty high. Regarding the fella Lorrie quoted who didn't have to think about a retirement income because he was going to make a lot of money... My heart goes out to the thousands of middle age couples whose planned retirement income went down the tubes when their 401 programs were trashed in the 2001 economy downturn. What are they going to do for income now? Its hard to recoup those major losses. And of course, the same is true of people already retired and dependant on investments for interest income. Like somebody said, "growing old is not for sissies!"

losalbern, so much of what is say is true, especially about the enormous financial burdens imposed on young families. The cost of buying a home today, and educating children is just mind boggling. Especially for those in large urban areas. When I read about median home costs today I think "where do the schoolteachers live?" (being a retired educator.) You could substitute a lot of other jobs, too.

I'm from the silent generation, and when my children were small I remember my mother saying, "I'm so glad my children are grown. I think it's a difficult time to raise children (1960's)." When my children were grown I was saying much the same. I think my children face a lot more difficulties raising their children than my parents or I did, even tho my mother was widowed at an early age and I was divorced when the oldest of my four was 13.

Lorrie, Thanks for putting up the generation summaries. It's a big help.

Since my father was never without employment I personally did not suffer from the depression. Some of my friends did ..the fathers were always home whenever I visited and I know the schools had days when everyone was encouraged to bring good used clothing and canned goods to be distributed to those who were less fortunate. I really didnt understand the situation because I can remember crying when I arrived home because no one gave me any of the clothes..my mother carefully explained why I wasnt a recipient...but I think I felt it was somehow unfair...

I also remember the hoboes who came to our front door ( the back door was not attainable as we had fences and gates to keep us in ( we lived in the city) I will say this the men who came were always polite and asked first if there was something they could do to earn a sandwich..My mother always said no to the work request and yes to a meal. Once she was so apologetic since all we had was peanut butter and jelly sandwiches...( with 5 boys they could go through an enormous amount of food) mother made the young man three peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, coffee and a big glass of water...it seems to me she also gave him some fruit. I do recall how eagerly he devoured those sandwiches. Usually whomever came to the door would get fried eggs, bacon or sausage, bread and jam and anything Mother would have handy. I was not allowed to speak with them but would watch from the screen door in summer and the front window in winter.

I also know that most of my relatives that had cars were always picking up hitch hikers and since we didnt have a car my older brothers used the thumb to go places. If there were reasons not to hitchhike I never heard of them and no one seemed afraid to do it..it was like a kindness to share.

Even though we lived in a city ..life seemed slow and rather nice...on July 4th everyone on the street would buy fireworks and as soon as it was dark the neighbors would gather on the front porches and watch while we sort of took turns sharing our fireworks. My parents were very cautious and would never buy the roman candles so I had to watch when others on our street would shoot them off. The flowerpot fireworks was my favorite and I loved it when most of the nieghbors fired theres. My father worked on the railroad so we always had a few red flares to define our lawn and our contribution to the evening.

You knew all the neighbors..by name and when there was an illness or a death in someone's family all the neighbors were there helping out.

After WWII life was never quite the same....

anna

Pedln:

You're quite welcome!

Annafair:

Ah, you write so poignantly about a long ago era that we will always remember as a tranquil, crime-free time,..........People didn't have much money, and yet we all seemed to share pleasant neighborhood events, like the fireworks you describe, and in our case, the endless days spent on the lakeside beach.

Today's youth seem to have to spend a fortune in order to have a good time. We often had parties, and one of the favorites was after having been ice-skating on the lagoons near home. My mother would grind up baloney and sweet pickles with a bit of mayonnaise and we would make wonderful sandwiches with hot cocoa. Very little money was spent--nobody had any. In fact, all of our activities involved some kind of entertainment without expense, like picnics at the beach, ball games in the park, free outdoor movies in the school playground, I often think that the reason we didn't dwell too much on the negative aspects of the Great Depression, because as far as we could see, everybody was in the same boat.

Lorrie

I think my childhood (baby boomer) in NZ (20 years behind the rest of the world) was better than todays childhoods. For one thing we were not a competitive society and not a society of consumers. We did not mind paying higher taxes as we had a health system second to none, The best educational system in the world, subsidies to buy our first homes from the Govt.

Today taxes are lower, its dog eat dog and we are the consummate consumer society. Our place in society is now gauged by our wealth not our characters. We don't care for our neighbours as we used to.

My childhood was much better and simpler than the one my grandchildren will have.

Carolyn

Ah now you have hit a good memory. In summer mother would do the same and she would send me to the store ( which was at the end of the block ..we lived in the middle ) for potato chips..the only time I remember having them...and she would also make big pitchers of real lemonade..and since we didnt have a refrigerator then she would chip chunks of ice from the huge ice block to chill our lemonade. I remember that so well as it was a very happy time. I dont eat boloney often but did buy some the other day ..I dont have a meat grinder like my mother so I mix some mayo with sweet relish and put it on whole wheat bread and add a slice of beef bologna ...I only use one slice of bread..it isnt quite the same but it does taste good.

My grandchildren spend their summers playing soccer and are on swim teams ...and instead of the family picnics we used to have they go to all sorts of organized events. If it doesnt rain this Sunday I am going to suggest we all meet at one of the parks and have a picnic. Just thinking I wonder if my grandchildren know what a picnic is?

On the fourth of July we will attend one of the public firework shows..which are spectacular but not as much fun as the small home ones of my childhood..

anna

Anna -- I think all kids are organized and scheduled into activities. And it's not just because both parents are working. I heard a parent say about starting her 5-year-old in soccer, "Well, if I don't start him now, he'll be behind when he's 8, and won't be able to keep up with the other kids."

GOOD GRIEF!!

Pedin's post brings to mind greater detail: One of our grandaughters( 5 years) is so attuned to school, play dates , etc. that her mom has enrolled her in two consecutive "camps" over the summer. One is for daily swimming pool activities and the other is a "farm camp"(?).

The child has so much organization in her life that she knows little about functioning with out the structure.

I wonder about the motive. It's clear that while Johnny may not be able to keep up, ".... if I don't start him now...." there is an element of mom 's being free to persue her other interests too.

I like to believe that older generations ( like mine) persued our "other interests" , if any, after we had taken care of the family interests first.

Gorman, I think there's a lot of truth in what you say.

Another difference between our family and our daughters' families is that John and I went out in the evenings alone - we got a babysitter - we didn't take the kids with us everywhere we went. I can't remember our girls ever getting sitters in the evenings so the parents could go out. I'm sure that was because the moms were working, too, and they had day care and after-school care until the grands were responsible enough to stay by themselves, so wanted to spend that time with their kids. John and I were very typical - he worked and I stayed home - at least until the kids were in school - then worked part-time for a while before going back fulltime.

I'm not saying one is better than the other - just different. However, the parents today don't seem to get the "couple" time for things like going to the movies or out to dinner without kids. Again, we had our kids earlier than the next generation did, so we didn't have the "couple" time before babies like they did.

Just different.

Mary

I am of the "quiet" generation, and I must say the description fits fairly well. But I also remember the WWII period, when we were the good guys, our fighting men were heroes, and the people at home planted Victory gardens and saved foil and grease. I agree that we have never since had quite that sense of rightness. By the time that generation, the GI genration, grew old, we had left behind forever our "age of innocence". ...Babi

Do any of you consider yourselves to be part of what used to be known as "The Nuclear Generation?" I'm not sure in just what category that would be, but here is a very interesting article from Salon Magazine by Amy Benfer, in which she compares the traditional family with "alternative" situations. Click on the link below:

NUCLEAR FAMILY

Lorrie

Anna, your posting about the depression brought back an event that I hadn't thought about for many many years. We had been visiting relatives in a nearby town and were driving home at just about dusk. We passed a young couple trying to thumb a ride and my mother cried out "look, she is carrying a tiny baby". Dad stopped to pick them up and they were so happy to catch a ride after a tiring day on the road. Just another young couple down on their luck, trying to get by the best way they could and heading west to "better opportunities". They stayed with us that night and the next morning Dad took the man to his place of work at one of the major meat packing houses and got the young man lined up with a day's work on one of the " labor gangs" where he earned some wages. This routine continued for three or four days until the couple with their infant had enough pocket money to confidently continue their journey west. I wondered about them for some time after that and then they were pushed far back into memory until just now. But that was THEIR generation, the pre-G.I. folks who realized during those hard times that there by the grace of God go I and did something about it. Anna, thanks for the memory!

My children all in their early to late thirties want nuclear families for their children. None of them are conservative in their general thinking. They have sat back and looked at the alternatives and don't want that for their kids. Its up to us as parents to support them as much as we can (not financially but with emotional support and our time) to help them to achieve this.

Carolyn

Somehow I thought a family of parents who stayed together and had children was called something else..but I will accept the term as written. My children then have nuclear families. They waited until marriage to have children ..and except for my youngest who had her first child ten months after her wedding..she was 26 and then had her second one thirteen months later my children waited to have children. Two was all she had although she loves children and said when she married it was her intention to have a large family. I think having to have her children by C-section discouraged her from expanding her family. Last year she gave up a great job and decided to be a stay at home mom. My two daughters in law still work ..one is an RN and the other a RD ..who is the dietician for our local school system. While their children stay in day care they also have the support of thier parents and myself to help out..

One thing I will say ..they all take time to just be a couple..I have stayed with my youngest daughter's children while they took holidays..and the parents of my daughters in law have taken care of the children while the young couples went on holidays. They all make sure they have time alone as well as time as a family.

Another post mentioned that young couples dont seem to take time to be a couple. The thought came to me that it might contribute to divorce. I often care for my grandchildren so the parents can go to a party or have dinner alone. When we were young my husband and I often hired a babysitter just to take walks together ( we were military and lived far from our own families) As our children grew we would hire a woman to care for them for a week while we took a vacation together..We loved our children but realized our purpose as parents was to raise them to be independent, to leave the nest..and we believd we needed to keep our relationship as a couple strong so when when they left we would still have our relation intact. It was very successful and our years alone were very special ..

It is just a thought...as far as couples living without marriage ..while I believe if you intend to have children you should be married I can also understand while some prefer not to be married..a lot of our laws discriminate when it comes to marriage..I am not sure but I know years ago even if a woman worked she could not collect her own social security but had to rely on collecting her husbands...I can remember one couple who were both paying into a retirement fund but could only collect one..It is often the woman who has to give up and so I think if I were young and gainfully employed I would think twice before I married...just thinking at 4am ..anna

Lorrie - Sad to say, but your description in post #352, (and above), is almost a perfect descripton of my youngest daughter, her lifestyle, and her friends. "Overloaded with information", can equate to overwhelmed, and unable to cope at all. Many of them are not doing well, because they are immature, concerned with superficialities, depressed over lost opportunities or relationships, and still making poor choices. Survival becomes, the name of the game - and those who are not quite as strong as others, are in a consant state of stress, anxiety and hopelessness.

They have a difficult time with relationships, jobs, and deciding what is right and wrong, or what is really important in life. There are many single mothers in this group, who have never been married, and feel there is no hope ever, for a "nuclear family" future. While we, (the Silent Generation), married at a young age - a large number of the Gen Xers are remaining single, well into their 30's. My daughter is 33, and now wants to get married. But the men that she dates, or that she works with, are content with the single life, and in no hurry to marry. Why should they? They can have all the love, sex and companionship they want, without any of the responsibilities of marriage.

Possibly, this is mainly a, California phenomenon? But judging from her friends, I have a feeling this same lifestyle exists on the East Coast, as well. Maybe the Gen Xer's in middle America, are more traditional?? Does anyone else see this as a problem within their family?

I agree with the definitions re: boomer..genX,etc. However, it seems the Boomers were just as irresponsible cranking out rug-rats they couldn't take care of as the GenXers were. There are 50-somethings still having babies with their 2nd or 3d wives.

I don't much like labels, and I don't like categories. This is a kind of stereotyping, and since people are different, only a few fit into the stereotypes. Adjectives like "nuclear" don't change the fact that family is family.

I grew up in the 30's and 40's, and things weren't all that innocent in the small, respectable New England city where I lived. There were plenty of husbands and wives who didn't get along and didn't live together, my parents among them. There were husbands and wives who barely tolerated each other and stayed together because divorce was a dirty word. The husband usually did a lot of running around with other women, and it was not unknown for a disgruntled wife to have a boyfriend. The kids these people, who didn't like each other and stayed married, raised were far from happy.

There were plenty of hazards for kids. I knew kids who drank, kids who used cocaine and other drugs, girls who became pregnant while in high school. Girls became very sick or died because of illegal abortions. I knew plenty of couples my age who had premarital sex. There were gambling dens and prostitutes walking the streets.

One high school girl I knew died drunk when her drunken boyfriend hit a telephone pole with his car. There were shootings and knifings, domestic quarrels when the wife was beaten up or the husband was injured when the wife hit him with an iron frying pan or baseball bat.

It was dangerous to walk on certain streets at night and sometimes during the day. Kids ran away from home and were never heard of again. As I say, this was a small, typical New England city where all these things were hushed up, swept under the rug or looked at with a blind eye.

I remember going on the train to Boston for my music lesson at the New England Conservatory when I was 14 and after I got there being pawed by a drunken policeman on a subway when I asked him to tell me what stop to get off. I remember sitting alone in a movie theater, also in Boston, next to a man who exposed himself to me. I moved and sat somewhere else next to a man in a Navy officer's uniform, and he did the same thing.

It is a nostalgic delusion to say things were better then than they are now.

My 17 year old grandson here where I live in NC has never lived a life organized by his parents. He's been too busy studying to have time for much else. Most of his friends work part time to earn their spending money, by the way, and I know no friend of his who has three or four hundred dollars a month spending money.

I'm sure my kids would have liked to have married and stayed married, but all three have been divorced, as have their mother and father.

In my opinion, labels, categories, generalizations and studies of a handful of people are not a true picture of how things are.

Mal

I certainly agree that the so-called "good old days" weren't really so different from today. Most problems like divorce, addiction, child and spouse abuse, etc., have always been with us (unfortunately). Women worked because their husbands died or were killed or ran off. Children were on the streets and worked in sweat shops. There was mental illness, but Aunt Gertie was always hidden in the house and was said to be "strange" or "not well". The old maid sister didn't work outside the house, but stayed with a relative and wound up doing a lot of the housework. Divorce was a terrible stigma, but was staying in abusive marriage any better. Young girls got pregnant and were sent off to have their babies, or the babies might have been raised as siblings - or they had back-alley septic abortions.

IMO, the main difference is that before these things were always hushed up, hidden. Whereas now, practically nothing is hidden. Good or bad - who knows - but at least less hypocritical.

Mary

I wonder if the "Generation Gap" isn't one of those issues we love to make for ourselves to worry about. It strikes me that this phenomenon is just part of 20th century life...and certainly of the 21st century.

In the distant past technology and social conditions changed so little that people may have been living and believing as their ancestors did 500 years before, maybe a 1,000 or more. It appears to me that for most of Western history people lived in similar fashion and had similar views for many generations. But technological change brought faster and faster technological change, often seeming to either drag beliefs and customs along with it in pretty battered shape and ultimately to overturn much of tradition altogether.

The rate of change in the past century was incredibly vast and swift, and our economy now depends on manipulating rapidly changing tastes, the cultivation of new "needs," and the satisfaction of individual wants as part of the race for a kind never-quite-to-be-achieved personal utopia. What matters is what's new.

It is everything the world of less technically sophisticated societies, what are called traditional societies, are not. And it is a way-of-life that has popped into full bloom as we watched, and at some point we stopped keeping up with.

Maybe some of what we older people lament as "losses" are unnecessary baggage in the society in which twenty-somethings live and will live in. Do we really know that these things that we see as being lost or changed in a harmful way are losses to the young, or do we just want them to be because we are uncomfortable with them?

I wonder which is the more potent American image around the world, Thomas Jefferson or Madonna. I wouldn't bet on T.J. myself. In today's world American pop music probably wins more people to the U.S. view than the writings of Jefferson. If the granddaughter doesn't know beans about Jefferson it may matter a great deal less than we think.

Jack

Jack I think you said a mouthful. I also think it depends on the young person and on their age. When my youngest who was bright and intelligent but more into doing her thing when she was in school left and went to college ..she said when she returned the first time that when she arrived at college it was like a door opened in her mind.

For the first time she realized her future was in her hands and her efforts. Because she was in an advanced class in High School and English was her major the college she attended hired her to tutor students whose English needed all the extra help they could get. She worked summers as a life guard here at home and in the winter at the college as well to earn her spending money. We paid the tuition and other fees.

We certainly tried to help her understand she was the one who needed to apply herself but she needed to mature enough to see it for herself. When she graduated she found a job that had her working 60 -80 hours a week as a TV journalist ( her English major paid off ) for twelve thousand a year and she lived on that never asking us to help. When she became the manager of the cable company at 26 and interviewed some of the young people who hoped to become TV journalists she found few of them willing to put in the hours ( the pay by then was 15,000 ) and work their way up.

When she was in High School she would only read the books that were required but now she reads everything and raids my library or buys the same kind of books I would read ( in fact I benefit because when she and her husband are finished I get the books)

I remember the things my contemporaries and I did when we were going to school and while we may not have had all my children and grandchildren have we still were pretty selfish and sought to admire the Frank Sinatras etc of our day. And while we may feel uneasy about Madonna influencing our young people ...I remember the squealing teen fans of Frank and his lifestyle wasnt one I would want any young person to emulate. And who is being influenced by the movie stars or TV personaliites in any country? I think mostly teens..they will all grow up and mature and sooner or later they will have to earn the money to pay the bills and support the family...

I dont know.. I do know there is little one can truly do about what your children do..that mine turned out well I accept the fact they were good to begin with and stayed that way. For others who as far as I could see did all the proper and right things, whose children were loved and cared for and still turned out to experiment with drugs etc. I do know some of my oldest daughters friends became involved in cults and it was only through intervention by the parents they were able to leave the cults.

We will always have young people affected by what our society and culture accepts so there will always be a generation gap.

anna

Can't you still smell it? You walked into grade school--no cafeteria then--and the balogna (baloney) sandwich smell hit you, and you added to the smell when you put your brown paper bag containing another baloney sandwich into your locker in the hall next your "home room". Oh me, I still love that smell today (sorry, folks, I'm just a peasant at heart). And REAL baloney is that "mixed" up kind, with pork and beef and "byproducts", it's not pure anything except wonderful. I can stand at the fridge and stuff slices into myself until I feel guilty and quit.

Next to my grade school was a small hamburger shack: a grill, an L shaped counter and, maybe, 8 stools. I was in there getting a 10 cent hamburger when the news of Roosevelt's death came over the radio that played all the time the shack was open. Every adult in that place burst into tears. It was the first time I had ever seen adults cry.

I agree that different times and conditions give rise to generations with different agendas. When I came home and yelled, "Mom", my mother always answered. I feel a certain sadness that my "silent" generation was about the last that can say that. My mother's father built the cabinets in the kitchen and dining room of our home, by hand, using tools his father had used. Back then, we had the "connected" feeling of being the present end of a long line, which was reinforced by "story telling" at mealtimes and in the evenings on the front porch.

My parents were affected forever by the Depression. I wasn't. I had no idea we were going through hard times. My father always worked at something--my first baby shoes cost 10 cents, and it WAS a big deal to spend that much money--and he didn't have a "regular" job until he went to Panama to work on the canal. But my folks never rented. Dad borrowed $50 from his mother, got a bank loan for the rest, and bought his first fixer upper when I was two--we had lived around with relatives till then. Mother had a high school education, Dad finished the 4th grade, but those two people were the best thing that ever happened to me.

You, reading this, understand every word I've written, but today's generation can't really relate to any of it. I don't look down on them for that, it's just the way it is.

HOWZAT

Mal you always hit the nail on the head. Hidden yes. Such as pedaphilia now causing an uproar in the Church and the Pope still sticking his head in the sand. That has been going on since time began and will probably continue but now Beware for the children have learned to Tell I wish everyone would stop rationalizing the causes and why the church does not address the issue more forcefully and realize it is a crime and let the police arrest the offending Priests,sunday school teachers or teachers and coachs, or scout leaders or fathers and uncles. These people belong in jail and not coddled in some namby pamby treatment program. Give them treatment in Jail. And watch them and notify people where they are when they get out. I hope the new generations of young people will all feel free to tell their stories. I sure didnt. Fr

Howzat:

I have this charming picture in my head of you standing next to a refrigerator, stuffing bologna into your mouth, and casting guilty looks into the other room, and I see myself! Hahhaha

Mal, your post made me think of the book "Peyton Place" when it first came out. Grace Metalious, the author, (I think) was on many talk shows, and the book was supposed to have caused quite a commotion in her town. If I remember correctly, too many of the townspeople saw themselves in the characters that Ms. Metalious had created.

Most of you here are saying that our present generation, and the ones to follow, are not hopeless, and in his Post #373, Jack says
"I wonder if the "Generation Gap" isn't one of those issues we love to make for ourselves to worry about. It strikes me that this phenomenon is just part of 20th century life...and certainly of the 21st century.
Maybe some of what we older people lament as "losses" are unnecessary baggage in the society in which twenty-somethings live and will live in. Do we really know that these things that we see as being lost or changed in a harmful way are losses to the young, or do we just want them to be because we are uncomfortable with them?"

Do you agree?

Lorrie

Lorrie, I always agree with Jack. Jack's always saying what I would have said. And he says it so much better, it makes me so proud of myself after he's put together what I would have said. If he just wouldn't sign his name to it afterward, you'd have sworn I said it. Tee hee.

HOWZAT

Maybe this is the place I can relate about learning lessons. We all were children once and we were given the opportunity to learn, did we? Or were we just extensions of our parents, I don't think so, we all are individuals and it is or was up to us to perpetuate a change, some of us it took some time.Life is never easy and hopefully we all learn from our mistakes, today I truly believe mistakes are fantastic for they let us change our point of view and our life goals. I also have learned that perfection is also something we strive for knowing it unattainable, there is no perfection, just the willingness to continue on in our chosen field, or whatever. Today my imperfections, or as you will my mistakes, were necessary to learn the next agenda, totally grateful for all my experiences - a wonderful blessing. To know I am not perfect is a freedom that surpasses all. Yet to be aware of all the gifts I have been given are numerous and I cherish all and thank God, the lessons we are learning today only bring home the greediness of all, not just our country but the whole world, we are our own worst enemies, thanks.

I don't know what a generation gap is. I have ten grandchildren whom I treat as equals and they reciprocate. Over Memorial Day weekend, we had Grannyfest 2002. We had a real campfire - wood, not charcoal or a gas grill - cooked burgers, hotdogs, and the inevitable S'mors, had a horseshoe pitching tournament, and everyone slept out in tents. And, since they and their spouses are all of age, Granny bought the keg of beer! My only request was that everyone go to Memorial Day services the next morning and we were all present and accounted for. I may not be the typical Granny but it works for me.

for petes'sake...try to remember when you were a kid.....when it said dont touch, wet paint, we touched it, didn't we.....we learned the hard way and so will all the kids of today......there ain't nothing we can do to stop all this....comes natural to experiment and these kids will experiment, and don't you forget it........just stand in the wings and pick em up when they fall.........and don't feel any blame.......it will happen with or without you.........so, saying that , just try being a parent and teacher, and not a friend-----and take it from one who knows..........

My grandsons callme up to tell me things that I'm "not allowed to tell mom." I think that's a riot, these little honies think that they've invented the wheel. I love it and I encourage it.

It has always been thus - with three siblings or three generations - the two on the outside get together against the one in the middle - the "common enemy".

Mary

I copied a recent posting here (see "original message") and sent it to our children ,as I thought it is provideds a well- thought analysis. Our daughter's (b.1956) response is provided for your information, re sunject at hand. We're very proud of her!

Subject: Re: Generation gap -wisdom Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:03:41 -0400

References: 1

As a teacher, we discuss this situation all the time. We are not senior citizens and yet we feel the "gap" greatly (My 25-year-old colleagues are the most vocal about how the kids are so different from when they were in school!) The parents of our students are our peers and, yet, I feel they are the core of the problem. Many, not all, are eager to be friends with their kids rather than be parents and their children's generation (the current group of high schoolers) is crying out for their attention. The assumption of dishonesty is so prevalent that honest students are looked at like Martians. A case in point - my own daughter, age 19, went to work for a small firm in Manhattan a month ago. She's an office go-fer. The company owner gave her a credit card with the words, "Go shopping for the things we need on this list and when you treat yourself to something, as I know you will, make it something nice." My daughter was offended and replied, "The thought of treating myself never occurred to me and I will not be doing it." The owner remained with her mouth open. The assumption that someone will try to get away with whatever they can colors teaching and therefore learning all the time. Our job as teachers is very hard in that we must build a repetoire that helps kids understand the importance of Madonna and Jefferson as well. Our job as teachers is also difficult because current high schoolers often do not understand what it is to be embarrassed or sorry for how they might have transgressed. These qualities are indicators (though not the only ones) of an ability to learn. But when you have parents making all kinds of excuses for kids (from their lateness to their low grades), when you have schools that are swayed by selfish Board members and parents who blame teachers for what they themselves haven't done, when you have administrators who bash teachers all the time, make deals with students on discipline infractions, or show up drunk themselves at school events, teachers will have their hands full. This is in a "good school district". The real heroes in the classroom are the teachers who work with the kids in urban areas who also lack parental input but for a very different set of reasons. After 22 years in the classroom, I think it all boils down to one word no matter the district - selfishness. We can't idealize what went on in previous generations and lay the blame for the current generation gap at the feet of technology, for there have been periods of enormous change throughout history in all civilizations in which many factors led to great changes that caused social upheaval. The Renaissance in Europe was one such time when values were shaken as wealth increased and society reinvented how people look their Church and at themselves. The orgiastic life style of Romans in the first centuries after Christ was another such time. The government kept the people entertained with gladiator shows and handed out free bread to combat poor crops and the subsequent anger of the lower classes. Upper class houses had rooms called "vomitarium" so that citizens could eat wantonly. Sound familiar? Yet, out of these two periods, we in the US benefitted greatly from the Roman system of laws which the Renaissance thinkers reexamined and found valuable and the Enlightenment thinkers of the 1700's did as well. So when Jefferson's famous words, "All men are created equal..." were penned in Philadelphia, we Americans were plucking the good from a troubled era. And when Madonna sang "Like a Virgin", she was reaping the benefit of those Enlightenment ideas that infuse our Constitution with the concept of free speech which came to us from the Greeks. And I was saying to my 11 year old, "No, we aren't buying that CD." because I'm not afraid to be a parent. I may not be a great one, I have surely made my mistakes. Though my daughters feel life moves faster than I did, I've still tried to do my best. Because it's not just speed that counts, it's thought.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 3:19 PM Subject: Generation gap -wisdom

This (from one of the senior forums I visit).I thought it one of the best analyses on the subject to date.

Generation Gap - so what, it's their world

I wonder if the "Generation Gap" isn't one of those issues we love to make for ourselves to worry about. It strikes me that this phenomenon is just part of 20th century life...and certainly of the 21st century.

In the distant past technology and social conditions changed so little that people may have been living and believing as their ancestors did 500 years before, maybe a 1,000 or more. It appears to me that for most of Western history people lived in similar fashion and had similar views for many generations. But technological change brought faster and faster technological change, often seeming to either drag beliefs and customs along with it in pretty battered shape and ultimately to overturn much of tradition altogether.

The rate of change in the past century was incredibly vast and swift, and our economy now depends on manipulating rapidly changing tastes, the cultivation of new "needs," and the satisfaction of individual wants as part of the race for a kind never-quite-to-be-achieved personal utopia. What matters is what's new.

It is everything the world of less technically sophisticated societies, what are called traditional societies, are not. And it is a way-of-life that has popped into full bloom as we watched, and at some point we stopped keeping up with.

Maybe some of what we older people lament as "losses" are unnecessary baggage in the society in which twenty-somethings live and will live in. Do we really know that these things that we see as being lost or changed in a harmful way are losses to the young, or do we just want them to be because we are uncomfortable with them?

I wonder which is the more potent American image around the world, Thomas Jefferson or Madonna. I wouldn't bet on T.J. myself. In today's world American pop music probably wins more people to the U.S. view than the writings of Jefferson. If the granddaughter doesn't know beans about Jefferson it may matter a great deal less than we think.

Gorman - your daughter (the same age as our eldest) is a most perceptive young woman. Your pride is well justified.

Mary

I feel like you observations of generation "X" is very rude and almost obsene. You really should stop with the generalizations as well as open you mind. I know how great the other generations are becuase I have grandparents and parents. This type of stuff makes those who are trying to do something with their lives feel worthless and mad. Why do anything when you are like you said only criticized. And we are a product of our past. We were not born on the thirteenth but on the day you created us. If you like others could only see what we are going to do for to benefit you.

Aries73:

That was a very thoughtful post, and your sincerity cannot be mistaken.

Puzzler:

Typical grandma? Hardly!

David Getlin:

Very forceful, to the point, and still with a bit of humor.

Gorman:

What a wonderful daughter you must have!

Yeahright:

On reading over some of the comments, I can see where you might have been offended by some of our posts, and I am so sorry. If it means anything it all, this sort of "generation bashing" has been going on for many years, and even your peers will eventually make similar comments. I do admit, though, we have a tendency to overlook the more positive aspects of Generation X. This is regretful.

Lorrie

Among all the wonderful email letters I get in regard to this discussion, are many that should be shared with everyone, so with the poster's permission I will post this one:

"Hi there, I can sort of agree with a little of your ideals from 1900 to now, but not entirely. I was born 1929 and I can sincerely say that I did not have an easy childhood and it was not due to the depression directly. I can relate to a lot of the children born today in the feelings they have about their parents, etc., the lack of true love and acceptance. Yes and I do remember WWII total, the day and everything that followed, it was horendous and little did I know the impact would affect my entire life. I remember the lies and deception, secrets, that families seemed to be into at that time, today for me secrets are the worst offender in anybodies life - they are the worst offenders and do much damage. I remember when I was informed about many truths that should have been told me at a young age and never was told the truth and then I was extricated from the family. Yes I joined the Military, in part to find myself and partly to be a good citizen for my country and it was good. I have been a very radical individual all my life believing in being self supporting no matter what and I have, and did try my darndest to instill that in my kids, who knows, but I did. I always have believed in America as a country for freedoms as set down in the Bill of Rights and the Contitution and still do and it makes me very sad to see our country being taken over by disclaimers, liars, cheats and greedy mongers. Have watched with a careful eye and an open mind. I know I am still here for a reason and that is too get the truth out there and it is as always the Truth in everything, we are all in this together and deserve the Respect, thanks for listening and God bless."

Jackie

Another talented poster has sent me a poem, very apropos of this particular subject, and I would like to share it with you all.

NEW INK IN AN ANCIENT BOOK

As music of those much loved songs
paid visit to my Id,
I dusted off the memories
from where I kept them hid.
Then putting out the welcome mat
there came for my review
eight millimeter visions
of old friends that I once knew.

Display of actors on the set
of "Moments from the Past"
found their fledgling seconds
in the "Current Moments" cast.
The roles we thought to be unique
when we were in our youth
became the modern re-release
projected from the booth.

For as the fresh young novice
debuted to claim his star,
an aged and equal talent
paid a visit from afar
and watched with understanding
of commitment that it took
to write on pages, with new ink,
inside the ancient book.

Too bad that when we're older
so often we'll erase
those painful recollections
of our personal disgrace.
So may we be reminded
that this flaw is blind to age,
when answering the curtain call
that bids us center stage.

Barbara Justice Powers

Thank you, Barbara!

I believe that the posting by Orma (391) is commercial.

The commercial post has been removed and the person notified that this is not permitted at SeniorNet.

Post No. 387 by Yeahright was posted by someone who cannot be reached as the email address is not a true address. I suspected this before I checked it. Yahoo send back my email to the yeahright@yahoo.com with the notification that there is no such etc.

I felt the post was Rude and Fake, in itself and if it were not a blind post it would have been ok as we could agree or disagree.fr

We have found, through past experience, that it's usually best, in cases like "Yeahright" to ignore the messaage entirely. Particularly if it is a blind address, like this one is.

Lorrie

Lorrie, I wondered about that post but knew you had read it and responded. Well we were both taken in, sorry to say.

I read it and thought: Well, okay, and felt that it read and was spelled as something forged to strike a particular pose. On the other hand, if it were the real thing it didn't encourage me to give much weight to the writer's points.

The netnews groups have become rife since the early 90s with anonymous and bogus postings, which - among other negative changes -have made them a very pale reflection of what they once were. They have gone to the bow-wows as a former landlady of mine used to say.

Jack

I agree with the previous posts regarding Yeahright. I don't think I could have responded so politely, Lorrie, I admire your patience. I thought the generation summaries were interesting. Any summary is general in nature but it is surprising to note how much my category, the "Silent Generation", seem to fit me.

I think one major point might have been made clearer in describing the Baby Boomers. It is suggested, but not emphasized. Historians and economists of both conservative and liberal leanings agree that the development of the "youth culture" - and the "youth market" on the economic side was one of the most marked cultural and economic shifts in our history. And it was the Baby Boomers that this focused on. The economic impact of adolescents and young people with money to spend has been incredible.

Most of the Sixties "radicals" became much more conservative politically than they were as young people, but I think it's pretty clear that in some ways they didn't change. I think that the emphasis on pleasure/entertainment - personal gratification - as a kind of entitlement, if you will, was sustained. It looks to me that the traditional responsibilities that were emphasized as part of adulthood from this generation on have had to compete - and not always successfully - with the opposite idea: I should be able to do what I want.

I don't know that Boomers dealt with this very well as adults. But it does strike me that by the time we get to Gen Xers what is apparent is that they don't display much discomfort with or ambivalence about pleasure/entertainment/self-gratification being central to life. And of course what was once characterized as youth culture/market is now a central part of the American way of life, and one we have exported. And the idea that this could be reversed by anything other than a cataclism doesn't seem very likely.

Mix into this the predominance of forms of entertainment - TV and the Internet - that depend on rapidly appearing/disappearing images and "button-pushed" sensations, and you don't have much room left for the type of life that most of us are - or at least, were for many years - familiar with. Obviously many of the customs/habits/values of our lifetime are still extant and functioning, but it also seems understandable to me, if unpleasant, that they don't have the same currency as in the 50's.

Jack

I think there is at least some connection between instant-gratification and the half-hour sitcom on TV. Everything happens immediately and all problems are/can be solved in a half-hour.

Mary

Well said, Jack and Mary!

I must say I am very impressed with the quality of the comments coming from all you wonderful posters! Every thought and opinion is well-thought-out and quite interesting. I find myself agreeing with most of you, but that is understandable because I believe we are all pretty much of the same age group.

However, I can't help the nagging little feeling I get when we talk about this "generation gap." Do you think we are too negative on how we preceive the younger people? Are we too quick to judge our grandchildren and their peers? Is it futile to cling to the constant comparison of How we were to How they are? I wonder.

Lorrie

Lorrie you ask if we are to quick to judge our children and grands etc. I don't think so. I think that generally speaking that is what we are doing all the time in order to form opinions. That can be positive too, as when I realize the so called X generation are my grandchildren. All my grandchildren have good jobs, are hardworking and are married. They are starting good size families. I have 14 greats born between 1990 and May 2002. They have served in the military including Desert Storm,bought homes, started business', finished paying for their educations, and are upright caring citizens.

I am definitely of the opinion that the outline above concerning X'ers is a totally erroneous picture of these people I know. I think the only description that applys much is to the Baby Boomers. These are my children. I of course am of the so called Silent Generation and have never been silent. Faith PS I am glad to see Jack posting. Jack I really appreciate your opininions here and in some other discussions. fpr

I agree with an earlier post that each generational group is different from the previous one - usually as a reaction to the earlier values, a need to differentiate from the previous one, and a need to assert independence. The earlier generation always thinks the later one is "going to hell in a handbasket", while the later thinks the earlier is "a bunch of old fogies". This was true 100 years ago, and it is just as true now. The kids of the Boomers are reacting to the attitudes and values of their parents, just as our '20s parents were reacting to their more Victorian parents.

IMHO, the succeeding generations will probably succeed and get through life on their own terms - and it won't necessarily be in ways that we particularly approve of. But one thing is absolutely sure - the young ones of today will feel the same way about their children and grandchildren!

Mary

Lorrie, sometimes I think we find it easier to generalize and criticize younger generations, just as they probably do the same with older generations. How often have you heard comments like "They oughta keep those old folks off the road," or "Those senior citizens vote down every bond issue we have."

Defending Yeahright -- if I read lots of negative statements stereotyping me and lumping me into a particular age group I'd be pretty irritated too. Yeahright, bogus or not, was just trying to let us know that. (Probably using Grampa's machine and when he wanted to respond was told, "well, don't use my name.")

More to say later.

From today's N.Y. Times magazine: "The median American family income is $54,400". Most have 2 cars, little in savings, a substantial mortgage. One of those 30-something, $54,400 couples pays $180 a month for one (Manhattan) parking space, have a second home in the country.

I think my folks were in their late 40s before they moved from a $40-a-month apartment to a house. Nowadays, couples sometimes buy a house before they're married.

I guess the only constant in life is change.

I remember my grandmother saying over and over, in the '50's and '60s, that she didn't envy people raising children in this day and age. I didn't have a clue to what she meant until the '70's popped up and my children were in high school. Then I understood!! Whoa! Now, I say the same thing about my kids raising their tots today.

I think it is a different world but you respond to whatever is offered.

The soccer quote about training the kids in the game is quite common among the parents today. They all worry about their children being behind, in anything.

Does anyone remember letting their children play out in the neighborhood and all about the town? Can't do that now!! But, there are other things to do and I don't think the kids are suffering. One of the things I miss (for these little ones) is "free time to do whatever strikes your fancy". Playing outside, reading under a tree, making something with your friends. The parents of today have to always be on the watch and alert. Not fun!

Ann wrote: Does anyone remember letting their children play out in the neighborhood and all about the town?

Yes, my mother's one admonition was, "Stay away from the creek!"

There was a wide, deep creek that flowed through the middle of town and parents were always afraid of their kids drowning.

Jack

My children played all over the neighborhood, a quiet suburban neighborhood, and my only requirement was that they let me know where they were going. Then a predator began assaulting small girls of about five years of age, in our quiet suburban neighborhood, and things were never the same again. ..Babi

In my opinion, as the mother of seven and grandmother of six, the problem with the generations is that the economy has caused the family unit to change. In other words, parents have to work so many hours that quality time with their children becomes a scheduling nightmare. Without spending a lot of time with your children, you cannot make a lot of impression on them for life's lessons.

I think the youth should be given an opportunity to problem-solve for the issues that the community has with them. This would place responsibility on their shoulders, provide an opportunity for them to obtain self-worth, and give them some way to have a say in their lives. Most of the time, their lives are controlled by others.

Joy Marshall

I never hear children playing the outdoor games that we used to play many years ago. How many of you remember, "Hide and Seek", "Kick the Can", "King of the Hill", "Sardines", or "Red Light, Green Light?"

Lorrie

I have difficulty with the concept that our children are what they are/do what they do/ affect the grandchildren as they do for any reason other than it's the result of choices that they made ( and continue to reinforce).

Changing one's life style is very difficult. And I contend doing so is a measure of how high it is on one's priority list.

It's much easier to go with the flow IMO and it provides a target for detailing how "difficult" it is to raise children today. however we should not be be surprised when the children do what they saw being done.

A recovering alcoholic told me, "There are two kinds of people, victims and volunteers,I have seen few victims."

There are two options in the middle class family to raise the children today.

My daughter and her husband chose to live on one income. This is to enable my daughter to stay home and be with the children. They did not do the usual things young couples choose to do when they were on two incomes. They worked hard, paid as much off the mortgage as they could and did not have expensive holidays or outings.

The second choice is to have two incomes and have material goods and expensive holidays.

Not many couples seem to choose the first option.

Working class families probably have less choice. The wife must work part time at least just to make ends meet.

I do think many of todays parents are putting lifestyle ahead of their children's wellbeing.

Carolyn

I think it was Joy who mentioned the part economics played in the generation gaps. I agree with her, and think the younger generations have had to adapt to societal changes. They have made choices, sure, but I often wonder which came first -- the chicken or the egg -- the changes or the choices. Remember when a wife's income would not be considered when a couple was applying for a mortgage? Now it's almost impossible for a family to buy a home without two incomes. When did it change, and why?

Did your parents have health insurance when you were growing up? Did you have it when your children were young? At one time, doctors, hospitals, tests, were affordable. Now, not having health insurance is tantamount to financial disaster and a life of poverty.

My grandparents sent their 7 children to the state teachers college and my mother, on a teacher's salary, sent me to college without loans, financial aid, etc. My children, except for the one who was ROTC, all had student loans to pay off when they graduated. Now I can't conceive of how even saving and denial will enable my children to come up with the tuition costs that have been projected for the time when their children will be in college.

Many of us got our education via the GI bill, for others the learning wason the job. And we worked more than one job plus all the overtime we could assemble. Not all will be able to do so, but both "institutions" still exist. The trade unions are another source high income in people's younger years. when on the road to advanced education.

My point is that depending on one's priorities, there are ways to get there. It depends on motivation, IMO. No one said it will be easy.

Gorman wrote: "however we should not be be surprised when the children do what they saw being done."

Amen! To that.

But school is supposed to erase all that of course. And if it doesn't then what's wrong with the kids is the fault of the teachers, the school...........blah, blah.

Jack

So much in my mind...health insurance...no one I knew ever had health insurance..when I was 16 I had an emergency appendectomy. I was in a private room in the local hospital for ten days ( the norm then) and the bill my father recieved was $110.00 total..and the surgeons bill was $75.00...I know because my parents never had a checking account only a savings account and paid all thier bills with cash. Since my mother had two younger than myself by the time I was 12 I was carrying my mother's purse with all the bills and the cash to pay them to the electric, gas et companies. I was the one who carried the money to the hospital and doctor and was old enough to read the bills and understand them. The private room was $11 a day and that included use of the operating room and the hospital nurse anethestist. There were no other fees. My parents and even as young as I was thought it was a very fair bill. A few years ago I had a case of food poisoning and was taken to the ER of a local hospital. While there they also did an EKG ..why I dont know, ran a few other tests, gave me IV's to rehydrate me and kept me in a small room for 8 hours for observation and my hospital bill was $908 and that didnt include the fee for the ER doctors ..before it was over my insurance had paid about $1400 for the whole thing. Which came first health insurance or high hospital bills?

All of my children bought homes as soon as they could after marrying but except for my youngest daugther they are all smaller than my home. My oldest son who now has three children needs a larger home but there is no way they could afford the cost of one. In fact the cost of homes has increased since they bought ten years ago they couldnt afford the same size home today.

Frankly I would not want to be in their shoes. As parents we lived on one income and did very well indeed. I was raised to be thrifty and fed our growing family well. But to do that really requires time and effort which is difficult when both parents are working. So they eat out a lot and that makes thier food bills almost exorbitant. My best gift to my family is when I decide to have them all over for dinner. They love all the things that take time to prepare and Mom does them so well. It may not be a relaxing time for me although the family does clear the table and load the dishwasher but for them it is the ultimate gift.

Our family generation gap is rapidily closing. With children of their own now they are finding my casual life style rather appealing. They understand how difficult raising children can be and appreciate MOM Last week my youngest daughter spent two days redoing the area at the ends of my driveway. She dug out the old shrubs even using and axe to chop out some of the roots ( I WATCHED WITH HORROR AS I JUST KNEW SHE WOULD CHOP OFF A FOOT) used the tiller and tilled up the soil and got down on her hands and knees and removed all the weeds and small volunteer plants. She had quite a pile of them and I offered to rake them together and put them in a bag to be picked up.She said Mom just sit there ..when I said But I feel useless just watching while you do all the work and she said something I treasure ..Mom think of all the times I sat while you worked. And that seems to be the attitude of all of my children. I see that in the way my children's spouses interact with there families as well. As they are coping with raising their children and struggling to balance their lives all of become appreciative of what the grandparents did.

And I can see my grandchildren already ( and the oldest is only nine) wanting to be different than their parents. Thus is it has always been and always will be ..My youngest daughter hated that I made all of her clothes although they did not look homemade due to my skill and now her daughter is begging me to make her some things and the other granddaughters think it is better than shopping to have Nana make them something. Makes life worthwhile... life makes the generation gap..each has to cope with what is out there ..new equipment, new worries, new concerns. Now that mine are mostly over they dont seem as bad as they when I was living them. anna

I worked in the medical field for a long time. IMO, the insurance industry is the culprit here. I remember a time when for insurance to pay for procedures and tests - lab work, x-rays, etc. - the patient had to be admitted to the hospital. Insurance wouldn't reimburse for procedures done in the office or as an outpatient; it would pay if the patient were admitted at least overnight. This certainly encouraged patients to have unnecessary hospital bills. I think that was the beginning of a lot of the medical care inflation.

And the same thing concerning doctors' charges. Patients would receive bills, then call to tell us that they didn't owe the doctor anything, that the insurance would pay the bill. It was tough to convince a patient that the bill was his/her responsibility, and that the insurance was for reimbursement. I think there's still a lot of that mentality now.

And until (and unless) the US goes to a system of universal health care, I'm afraid (for better or worse) the insurance companies will be in control.

Mary

I think the Insurance companies have hiked up the cost of health care but mainly because the health professionals knew they would get paid no matter what so upped the charges.

In NZ free hospital care is available to everyone. (Mind You there is terrible waiting lists for elective surgery) With doctors visits the government subsidises those. Children under 5 are free. The poor pay 50% of the bill and everyone else pays 100%. Drugs are subsidised for the poor. Many people opt to pay for the doctor and have Hospital care covered by the Health Insurance Providers. The hospitals owned by the Insurance companies do not have ICU facilities so the public system is necessary for this. ICU care is free to all through the Public Health system. I hope this never changes.

Carolyn

Further to my previous post - many cancer drugs are not free under the public health system so the same old story applies - if you are well off your survival rate is higher.

Carolyn

In April I underwent a coritid endarterectomy to clean out an artery that had initiated the process of stroke -(got it stopped w./o paralysis or permanent damage, am I lucky or what ?!) The university hospital "accepts" medicare as full payment .'Went in by ambulance on Monday, tests& supervision by an emminent neurologist, operated on Thursday by an emminent surgeon, dismissed on Friday . Bill for $16K (of which medicare granted them ~$9K - Deductible =$816 of which my secondary will pay 80%). My ultimate less than $200.

I take lipitor , altace, plavix, asprin daily.Initial prescription cost $15. Refills $15

I certainly have no complaint with health insurance . Monthly premium =$90 as a function of retirement awards.

All of which brings me to return to the issue of life style choices: You can bet I could have chased a far higher level of income, cathederal ceilings and the works. Something kept telling me that the now- income was going to proove less important than stockpiling of resources for later on. No one made it easy - not their problem.In the process we raised two kids. Both finished college by virtue of the NY university system.One has a masters the other a bachelors and are raising their own families.

I don't think I rank among the world's great thinkers , ( and I cetainly was not an easy person to accept discipline) but I learned by listening to the adults who had been through the mill. Thank God!!

This is wonderful! You are all responding to each other, on one plateau or another, and this is what a discussion is all about! Keep up the good work!

Lorrie

A niece of mine, who chose to work as a homemaker rather than going out of the home to work, tells me that when she is in a conversation with her peers and other young mothers, she gets the feeling that they are condescending to her because of her choice. Does anyone else hear of this attitude among young people?

Lorrie

Here on SeniorNet, we are constantly striving to get to know our participants better, and to this end we now have an open discussion for all you wonderful "bookies" to come over and introduce yourselves, if you dare! One of our "techies" will be glad to post a snapshot of you if you have one or not, but please come over and give us a look-see!

MEET THE BOOKIES

Lorrie

Side note: the average person has no insurance against legal costs. Professionals, like doctors, have learned it's an essential, but the average person hopes to avoid legal entanglements, and certainly cannot pay premiums on the off-chance he might not be able to. My daughter had to fight a legal battle to regain custody of her daughter, after her stranged husband and his sister picked the child up off the street on the way home. She eventually won, but she will still be paying off the lawyer when she's on Medicare! And her health insurance didn't cover psychological counseling for herself and the child.

Now, what does this have to do with the Generation Gap, I wonder?Every generation since ancient Rome has complained about the lawyers! ...Babi

In the culture that brung -me-up,anyone who attacked the children was unlikely to see their next birthday cake.( 'Must admit the many wives were not covered by the same convention). We never had to be afraid of such problems.

I recall reading (Decameron?) that the 8th level of hell is reserved for lawyers (who are inserted head first into a block of ice).I know several candidates -most are politicans.

Ah I dont know about the present generation ..but I know as a stay at home mom in the late 50's and 60's I began to see that the mothers of my childrens friends who worked thought being JUST a housewife was rather demeaning.

While many of these mothers worked I was a SS class teacher, director of Youth at church, Girl Scout organizer and troop leader beginning with Brownies up to Junior Girl Scouts. One problem when our children became teenagers many of those mothers were thought to be better than a stay at home mom..why ? because they began doing what I couldnt do ...buy the teen age children expensive clothes and other items. I remember distinctly listening to a mother tell about her daughter having 50 dollar handbags , and other costly items of clothing..I know my daughter felt sort of out of it because I wouldnt pay that kind of money for my own handbags let alone for her. We are talking here about mothers only 15 years ago.

Both the sons and daughters were given not only exspenive clothing but TV's for their rooms and automobiles too. I recall a nephew of one of my sisters in law refusing to work because they were only offering 9 dollars an hour and that was about fifteen years ago. They bought him a car etc and the gave the daughters all sorts of help..It is some small consolation to me that I have lived to see these young people flunk out of college and cant seem to hold a job. Even while the parents are now on a limited income the children expect them to help with buying a house, furnishing the home etc. And in some cases the grandparents are kept from seeing the grandchildren because they havent come through financially ...

Now I also know a number of working moms who made sure the children undertood the sacrifice she made to work ( and it is ) who monitored the things they gave them and the children respected and appreciated what the parents did ..so I think the bottom line is not that a mother works but what kind of values she and the father teach.

So along with the lawyers and politicians I nominate any adult who fails to realize their real job is to love one another and to teach thier children the skills to survive when they are no longer here.

Add to that list anyone who treats another human being unkindly or with a snobbish attitude...those who think the only right way is their way..gee I could go on...but will just say it is hot here in Va and I am going out for dinner and be waited on...

Also when I watch the fires in Colorado I hope none of you are in danger there. ...anna

Anna - this is what I have seen too with kids who have been given too much whether their mother worked or not. They dont try. They sit back waiting for their parents to supply everything including the down payments on their homes. So many of the kids my family were envious of are adults who have nothing - no career no assets. One of our pastors once said. "The very worst thing you can do for your child is to give your child everything they want when they want it!" He had only one child who did not get everything and she was a lovely girl.

Carolyn

The majority of my friends, (now in their late 60's), have given their married sons and daughters a down payment on a nice house. Reason being: "They would never be able to afford one, if we didn't help them", or, "They'll get the money someday when we die - why not now"? After we have raised these kids, paid for college, and they are finally working and married and have their own families - then we are supposed to provide them with a house?

I believe that in a lot of cases, WE, (the parents) just can't stand to see our kids go without. Sometimes they don't even ask! We offer, and why should they turn it down?

I'm guilty of this with one of my children. Our two older married children, bought their own houses without any help from anyone, and are self sufficient and mature adults. However, we made the serious mistake of indulging our youngest with too much, for too long. Now, all three of us are paying the price.

Sometimes we want to help our kids out. One of my children, after putting herself thru graduate school with an advanced degree in physics decided she wanted to work in community development instead, in jobs that barely pay a living wage. As far as I'm concerned, that's her choice. However, her job did not include benefits, and when I offered to pay for health insurance, she refused, saying she would do without it. And to back that statement up, she later commented, in front of me, to a friend, "We've already had the health insurance conversation."

My take on the situation was that it was very irresponsible of her not to accept a high deductible health insurance policy. If anything happened, all of us in her family would feel responsible to help, even if she didn't think so, and could end up with a lot of financial problems. Knowing she wouldn't listen to me, I immediately talked with her siblings, and eventually, with their help, she saw the light and got a high deductible policy.

I was watching 'Hollywood Squares' this afternoon, and one of the questions was: "The majority of college students now have an average of four of these. What is it?" The answer was "credit cards". And I suspect it is Mom and Dad who are paying the bills.

8th level of hell? That sounds like Dante's Inferno, Gorman. Not that I ever got to that level, but I've already commented on the universal unpopularity of lawyers. (I know, I know. There are many very fine people who are lawyers. But for a general bad rep, they are right up there with politicians and used-car salesmen.)

Which brings us right back to the fuzzy thinking that accompanies putting labels on entire groups of people...like the younger generation? ...Babi

"...Dante's Inferno..." you are correct. Wrong to label entire groups" it is probable that lawyers are the exception that prove the rule.

Didn't Shakespeare, in one of his plays, write "And then let's kill all the lawyers!"?

Lorrie

This isn't exactly "Generation Gap," but while we're talking lawyers . . . and health insurance, check out this NY Times article about doctors and trial lawyers in West Virginia. It's all how things are changing and one thing leads to another. Antoher example of how greed makes the world go round.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/13/health/13DOCS.html

the generation gap ( which I read as "culture chage") is caused by the results /impacts of many issues. Some are directly relevent to the daily communications verbal or otherwise (or lack of same) while others are more subtle and often overlooked in any analysis.

Re Shakespeare:"...1) 50798. Shakespeare, William. The Columbia World of Quotations. 1996 ...NUMBER:50798 QUOTATION:The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. ATTRIBUTION:William Shakespeare (1564-1616), British dramatist, poet. Dick the butcher,...

I think that I too essentially see generation gap as culture change.

Jack

This afternoon while grocery shopping two young boys maybe 9 and 12 years old were ahead of me in the grocery line. They reached down and took the soda and beer off of the bottom of my shopping cart for me and as I placed the items on the conveyer belt they advanced them seperating the cold items from the produce. I thanked them graciously and asked them where their mom was? I wished to tell her how polite and thoughtful they were. They told me that she was shopping and they were just standing there looking for something to do.

I thought of our "generation gap" conversations we've been having here and hugged both of them as I left the store.

Andy, what a positive anecdote that was! Hearing about children like that reaffirms my faith in this younger generation. It's little things like what those boys were doing that makes their rearing seem so worthwhile.

Lorrie

I have been away for a while and had a lot of catching up to do. Pedlin, while you noted that discussions regarding the impact of health insurance and lawyers may be somewhat of a stretch in a discussion about generation gaps, I am inclined to think there is more of a direct relationship that shows at first glance. I tried your link that lead to the article about Doctors "folding their tents" and find that a sad situation. There are a lot of discouraged doctors in this great country of ours. In the past 15 years, I have experienced five (5) of my own personal physicians who decided to retire, most of them early, and probably earlier than they would have liked to but putting up with the current hassles of HMOs and Medicare billings and ever higher premiums for malpractice insurance, just took the edge off of taking care of their patients. IMO malpractice lawyers are responsible for a large measure of the high cost of medicine, doctors and hospitals today. I firmly believe that the malpractice lawyers enriched themselves at the expense of the general public. How does this fit into our discussion of generation gaps? I remember a time of when fewer people were being sued and doctors were making house calls. I think that was a better age. New isn't always better! losalbern

My father's mother was wiser than most. She used to say, "The good old days were never the good old days to those who lived them." I think there's something to that.

While I tend to agree on the medical malpractice vultures, I am quite glad we can have recourse to law when we received unwise medical treatment. In the "good old days" too many experts could hide their errors. I wish my mother was here to post about medicine in the good old days. Back in the 30's her womb was cauterized after a painful delivery. That child died and after four years she finally managed to conceive and carry a child full term. She was never able to get pregnant again, always naturally aborting in the second/third month. When later in life she was told she need a hystorectomy the doctor who examined her volunteered that cauterization had been very badly done and that she was lucky she had even one child after that. She had to remind him that he had done it, a fact he had obviously forgotten.

I'm sure that most medical botches in the old days were foisted off as acts of God. Who thought they had any recourse against a doctor or a hospital? In a small town the doctors and lawyers were such a cut above the laborer you'd have been lucky to find a lawyer to take your case.

Jack

Anna,

I was so glad to see you posting that you chose to stay at home and work very hard to economize, feed your children nutritionally, and to make their clothes. I did the same thing and also found that the choices that I had by staying home were really beneficial. If I chose not to do all the cleaning one day, I didn't do it. If I chose not to bathe the dog, that was okay,too. But, when I chose not to cook, whoa! Watch out! Eating out was a privilege and not often done. I really enjoyed taking the children to the parks, the library, swimming and other places that didn't cost me an arm and a leg! But, who said that wasn't a job! It was, and still is, the most important job in the world! After all, we were dealing with our own future citizens of the world. I still think that someone should be home with the family daily. It doesn't matter whether its mom or dad or grandma or grandpa or Aunt Lizzie!! They need someone who is always there and ready to help them, listen to them, and hug them. I will now get off my soapbox!!

( or those enrolled in "camps" -or other euphorisms ) is often dangerous ground for family conversation -or even casual non family discussion. Many of the parents who choose ( recall "... victims and volunteers...") to take this route become upset as they perceive themselves being attacked at the mere mention.

I ran into it only once with our kids -kept my observations- no matter how benign- to myself there after. 'Also have been alert when the subject was raised by others and discovered again that it's a prickly subject.

In New Zealand it is illegal to leave a child under the age of 14 years alone. Children under 14 are not allowed to babysit other children. If you work it is the law that you must provide care for your child before and after school until they reach the age of 14 years. Do you have this type of legislation in your countries.

Carolyn

KIWI - The law varies by state in the U.S. When I was first alone with kids in the early '60s, Washington State allowed kids over 12 to be alone in the day time, or even to watch other kids, but they had to be 14 to left alone asleep. I got in trouble because I left for work early in the morning with mine still asleep. A neighbor lady with young kids of her own came over to check on them - went back and forth, then woke my kids to get ready for school. They took the youngest to her house when they left for school. I got off work around noon, so was home for them when they got out. But I was breaking the law, so I had to quit a good job, leave for the new job which paid a lot less, later in the morning, then not get home until nearly 5:30. I never could see why they were safer after school, awake, with plenty of neighbor kids around to help them get into trouble then they were asleep with a dog in the house, but that was the law at that time.

I finally ended up quitting all work away from home, renting a dairy farm, and raising them there. That way, no laws were broken and the kids could always find me before or after school. Of course, I lost out in my previous career as I suspect many single parent women do trying to juggle responsibilities like that.

All of my grandchildren have started pre-school at a very early age; gone on to kindergarten, and then on to school. Two of my grandsons were using computers before they were five years old. None of them has seemed to have suffered because of this. In fact, I'd say this exposure to learning and other children has helped them a great deal.

From the time I was barely 11 years old, I went home to an empty house because the people who raised me worked. I washed up the breakfast dishes; went in the living room and practiced my piano lesson and played just for fun; then started my homework. At five fifteen, I peeled the potatoes and put them and anything else that took a while to cook on the stove, set the table, and did more homework. I enjoyed the freedom of deciding what and when I'd do what I did, and can't see that being alone like that and alone every summer hurt me at all. One summer I read all of George Bernard Shaw's plays out in the sunshine in between playing the piano and painting pictures. Another summer I wrote several stories and numerous popular songs, all of which I sent off to publishers.

Offhand I'd say not every kid who's a latchkey kid or goes off to summer camp ends up neurotic or a juvenile delinquent.

Mal

No, we don't, Carolyn, and from what I can see, it's a shame we don't. I think children of many working moms would benefit from this type of law.

I personally believe that 14 is much too young for a child to assume the responsibility of baby-sitting younger children. Fifteen seems to be a more mature age, somehow. I remember that both my sister and myself, at 15 and 16, were able to make all our own spending money and buy many of our school clothes just from baby-sitting fees alone.

Lorrie

Gee, Lorrie, you must have been paid better than I was. I earned 50 cents whether I babysat an hour or from 5:30 to after midnight, and didn't buy many clothes with that!

Mal

How old a kid is to be called responsible depends a lot on the kid. My big brother and my oldest girl were born responsible. I remember my brother looking out for me long before we got to school. When my oldest was about one and not even walking alone yet, she used to pull herself up to a crib in the church nursery if a baby was crying, pat it and say, "Don try." She was better at preventing problems and handling emergencies at 11 than many folks are at 21. (Obviously, Mal was more than sort of kid.)

We had a couple of baby sitters when the kids were little, who were around 14 and very capable. They did a better job than the 16 year olds who had boy friends and too many distractions. This is why I don't like arbitrary laws which rule out common sense or the judgement of the parents. I believe kids who are given more responsibilities at young ages usually turn into more resposible adults. Of course, when any kid baby-sits, they need someone nearby whom they can contact in an emergency as back up.

Malryn,

Your mention of piano practice brings back a lot of memories. When I was in 2nd grade, I talked my parents into letting me take piano lessons even though we had not piano. For the first year of lessons, I walked a mile to school and practiced in the basement school auditorium. My mother was able to locate an affordable piano the next year. I too lived as a latchkey kid after my Dad died(I was 12, my brother, 10)I also was responsible for starting dinner and many times prepared the whole meal. No distractions from TV!

Benjamin

Maybe the place that you were born into the family makes a difference. I was the oldest, my mother widowed twice, depended on me to help from the time that I was age 12. I actually liked being her partner. As to baby sitting, I agree that it depends on the sitter and the number of children. Yes, trouble can arise when a boy-friend is around but a girlfriend can cause a similar problem. It causes distraction. My baby sitting days were not fun as I didn't like to babysit. The money wasn't much more than 50 cents an hour either. My aunt paid me 25 cents an hour when I first started sitting for her. I must have been twelve or so.

I also was responsible for bill paying. I can remember riding downtown on the bus or streetcar to pay the utilities, mortgage and the car payment. Shortly before my first stepfather died, he purchased a used car(a '41 Plymouth) for my mother. When my husband and I first married, the car was sold to us for $100. This was in 1952)We drove it from Indianapolis to Denver(Lowry AFB), back to Indy, down to San Antonio(Randolph AFB), up to Austin (Bergstrom AFB) and back to Indy. When we traded it in on a '49 Ford(also used), my brother purchased it from the used car lot. That car got around a lot. It was a real workhorse!

My feeling is -- when raising your kids, you do what you have to do. If you have to be at work at 7, and they don't get the school bus until 8:30, you don't necessaryily listen to Dr. Laura and quit your job to stay home and fix them breakfast.

No doubt I broke the law a lot, especially when I left my 16 year old in charge of 3 younger siblings in Tennessee, while I flew out to job interviews in West Va and Virginia. Of course my church and half the neighborhood were on alert. You know your kids and what they're capable of.

My son and DIL elected that she not work and she is now the brownie leader, the cub leader, the GS leader, the PTA rep, ect. When I visit them I also do chauferring to violin, softball, piano, so the children do not have to spend half their life on wheels. My take is that they are much safer locked in the house alone, than riding on the Washington D.C. beltway.

I do not have any idea what the law said about children babysitting children in the 30's. I was doing pd Mothers Helper full time live in work at 12. I got up and bathed and dressed the baby who was 10 months old. I feed her her breakfast and then I ate and played with her till about 7:00 when I got her mom up. Then I went and bathed and got ready for school and left at about 10 to eight as my first class was at eight that year. (small school) After school from 2:45 or so on I had the full care of the baby again until I put her to bed in the evening at 7:30 or so. Her mom did get the dinner or sent us over to the hotel kitchen(she and her hubby were the children of the owner) to eat our dinner. After her bed time I did any home work I had and washed my cloths and ironed them for school etc. On Saturdays I was off all day until 7: in the evening and spent that time at home with my sybs and mom.

When we moved to the little foothill town I was there only a short time before I married at age 14, moved to Reno with my college student husband, and had a baby of my own at 15. I only know the law said I could not go to a public school when married in 1941 and on.

My opinion of all this is I was too young to do any of the things I did do by todays standards. Actually I would not let my own daughter do the type things I did. Of course my childhood in the depression years was very very different than my childrens lives. I do not waste time on regrets anymore. It is futile and only frustrates a person to do that. But I am glad if there are work laws for children and wish they had them throughout the whole world and wish they were able to enforce them. I also wish(more like a prayer that) all children could get what they need to eat and grow up healthy without having to work.

I am glad to see that statistically the big birthrate of children to underage girls has been dropping steadily since 1990's. I would hope girls would finish school and take time to grow up before marriage.

I do not believe most children are able now days to stay alone and still grow up really healthy. There can be exceptions to everything I know very well. Still, children need someone in the home when they are there, or they need to be in some kind of surpervised care. fr

In the early 80's we lived in Montgomery County, Maryland when my youngest daughter started babysitting at age 13. Before her first babysitting job, she attended a babysitting safety course at the local fire station and got a certificate. It wasn't mandatory but made us feel more comfortable about her ability to handle an emergency. The kids loved her and we got a lot of compliments on how well the kids behaved in her care.

Agree!! in our case my wife has never worked outside our home , in close to 50 years. It was a mutual agreement.

She has raised two kids, made all their clothes , -when children- ,still makes all her own, fed the family.and managed the finances of our home over several states as we relocated several times..

It didn't take rocket science to understand that was more than a full time job over nearly 50 years.

I have no desire to understand the mentality of those who would feel that she is only a house wife.

I received a very interesting email letter from one of our participants. In the interest of being fair-minded, and with the permission of the author, I am posting this letter here.

"I am very new to your site. However, I've just "stumbled" over your most recent discussion re generation gaps. I must say that I heartily disagree with most of what I've read re the Generation X description. I guess I am kind of "sandwiched" between the "silent" and the "boomer" generations. My own life fits neither of your descriptions even remotely. My children are of the "X" generation and they, too, do not fit the "type" or "ilk" of those described for that generation. They are both highly motivated and very highly educated. I've always felt it so very unfair to "group" people that were born during a certain era into one category or, similarly, to "group" certain ethnic or religious people because of maybe the actions of a few. My children grew up quite disciplines - whether they were at home or at private Catholic school; they both excelled academically; they were respectful and caring. We would always read in the newspaper headlines about the "bad" teenagers or about the juvenile delinquents - giving them the notoriety they actually wanted/needed. No one ever read about the "good" children - those that excelled in school or got academic scholarships to the best schools/universities in the country. Maybe, if we praised the "good" more than publicized the "bad", our children would have more incentive to do better. So, I guess my life experience disproves the "tag label" placed upon both my "silent/boomer" generation and my children's "X" generation. I just know that my children's grandparents and great grandparents would be most proud of them because they, I'm sure, more than fulfill any expectations they may have had for them. Thank you for the opportunity to voice my opinion. Sincerely, Peggy Da"

How would you respond to this poster?

Lorrie

Contrary to what many Seniors believe, as a working community newspaper editor and publisher, still active after starting in the business in 1943 at age 12--I know with absolute certainty: THE BEST of current generations are so much better in many ways than the best of previous generations. Brokaw's GREATEST GENERATION did survive the Great Depression, WWII and the Post-War era. Many of my generation, born into the depression and missing childhood to work the farms, ranches, businesses, shops, service stations, etc. during the war (Along with the women and Seniors), developed hard shells as a result. Probably a majority of both generations went to serious excess trying to give their children EVERYTHING they had missed. That is one of our major problems. Those who knew hardship, poverty, war and even famine sought to protect their offspring. But some members of THE GREATEST GENERATION must accept much more of the responsibility for many members of successive generations lack of responsibility, lack of common sense and lack of ethics and integrity. Sadly, returning WWII veterans embracing their Veterans Education benefits included many who officially became teachers. At least a minority, and in some areas, a clear majority of these GI BILL teachers gravitated to states offering TENURE after teachers completed two to five years employment in a county or district. For all practical purposes this segment of the WWII Veterans teaching population retired on payroll as soon as they secured tenure, with near-total protection from being fired. This has been a major contributing factor to their students' weaknesses. A smaller group of WWII and Korean War Veteran GI BILL teachers actually moved from "sins of ommitting serious effort" to a jaded, cynical level of "sins of commission." These people actually taught irresponsible behavior. I have known of teachers espousing sexual promiscuity, Hedonism, drug use, "If it makes you happy, do it," and similar philosophies. Not only in urban school systems. One of the worst was in a small, rural Bible Belt high school of less than 100 students. Tragically, these teachers recruited less qualified students to the idea of teaching == in their style. One of the major universities conducted extensive research during the 1970s into what contributed to declining education achievement. Their conclusions: More than 95% of the nation's teachers since WWII have come from the bottom 25% academically of all college students. The Physical Education teachers are consistently within the bottom 2% academically of all college students. 98% of all public school administrators come from the ranks of Physical Education teachers. REALITY -- Few 1950-2002 students have not been impacted by the "retired on payroll" and "loose lifestyle" GI Bill teachers. Almost none of the 1950-2002 students have not been impacted by the "Physical Education" administrators' lack of academic credentials. We as members of the Senior Generations were in charge during the period this was allowed to develop and continue. WHAT'S WRONG WITH TODAY'S KIDS. Look in the mirror and recall what you did to prevent it.

It would be interesting to see - but a real job and a half to collect - statistical data comparing the various generations, i.e. how they profiled at ages 20 - 40 and how those profiles compare with each other. A comparison of actual statistics on divorce, couples who live together without marrying, children born to women who are not legally married, crimes commited, time served in jail, bankruptsies, single parenthood, drug use, premarital sex, amount of debt, etc. etc. carried by each generation during their 20 - 40 years. This might mitigate charges of stereotyping.

I think the term "Generation Gap" immediately sets too many teeth on edge and makes people very defensive, whereas discussing "social change" though covering the same ground might furnish more ground for discussion.

After all "Generation Gap" is me/you - the kids - the grandkids, it immediately becomes close and personal. I think people can preserve more distance and a bit more objectivity and feel less attacked.

Though it is just one small point, the idea that 60% of college kids have credit cards is mindboggling. But the overall attitude toward credit and how it is "created" is so different today than in the 50s when I went to college. I still cling to the idea that buying on credit is not something entered into lightly, but in this respect I'm waaaaaaay behind the times, and the credit card carrying college freshman is right in the swim of modern life. It's not *wrong* that 3 out of 4 have credit cards, unless of course other information would indicate that these cardholders are in widespread trouble as a result. But it sure indicates a different attitude toward credit.

Jack

It appears to me that all of the, Senior Net parents, who have posted into this discussion about their Gen X kids, feel like Peggy Da. I guess I stand alone. My 33 year old daughter fits the profile above - and then some! I wonder if it has anything to do with the geographic areas where the children were raised?? Meaning: East ot West coast, Mid West, South, small town or big city, etc.?

I think that your suggestion that geographical area, etc. might come into play probably has some truth in it. Certainly the Gen Xers that I met in NYC (though most came from out of the city and out of the state) fit the description. And for years I participated in netnews newsgroups and much of what Gen Xer people wrote there would indicate that they are living in a vastly different world and have markedly different attitudes.

But then we don't know about Seniornetters do we? I would bet that they are disproportionately white compared to general population, there seems to be a heavy skew toward females and there might be other group characteristics that would influence their/our viewpoints.

My sojourns in South Florida retirement places would make me wonder if mothers are not much more inclined to see their children through rose-colored glasses than fathers. It certainly seemed that way listening to folks discuss their families down there.

Jack

I agree with Peggy that not everyone in a "group" is going to meet the standard "criteria", and it is harmful to slap a label on people as part of a group rather than assess them as individuals. The kind of group evaluation we see listed up in the heading is "social sciences" working with their profiles, statistics, comparative studies, etc. The characteristics they come up with are supposed to represent a "norm", or perhaps a "majority". How good the information is depends a great deal on how valid the studies are.

I also think, Peggy, that your children's private schooling could well have been an advantage that helped to keep them out of the morass of the "norm". The quality of our public schooling has declined so abysmally over the past 40 years, that we can hardly expect that the children educated in them have many problems. I know that there are many fine schools still out there; they are so unique that they are rejoiced over in magazine articles wherever possible!

When all is said and done, we cannot deny that there are many problems to be dealt with by our younger generation, problems that were so rare in our day that many of us grew up without ever catching sight of them! And we are not going to help them by dismissing them as the "lost" generation. Have any of these social scientists, in their busy classification, given some positive suggestions as to what we might to to help? From what I can see, some of the best suggestions have come from the grandmothers and grandfathers posting here. Let the young people know what you believe and what you stand for; but love them unconditionally and let them know you have faith that they can make a good life for themselves. ...Babi

That study mentioned in post #453 -- about teachers, PE teachers, administrators, etc. I guess I'd want to know what university and which department and who was involved in this study, and what was their methodology, etc. etc. etc. It kind of makes me think of that old saw that anybody can show anything with statistics.

In defense of public schools, all four of our daughters spent their primary and secondary school years in public schools in Tennessee in the 1960s and 1970s. Each graduated in at least the top 10% of their classes, and one was a National Merit Scholar. Their children, ages 13-19, are being educated in public schools in Tennessee, Kentucky, and South Carolina. The one who has graduated from high school was valedictorian of her class. These were/are all in suburban or rural schools. Good education is there for the taking in most schools. It takes family expectations and encouragement and personal desire.

Mary

I think that the description above of Gen X is - unintentionally, I presume - less neutral and more loaded than the others. The others show a balance, the Gen X one is framed more on the order of the delineation of a problem. The "problem" is casting Gen X as something that needs to be fixed. The world of the 20 to 40 year-olds is vastly different one from when I was in this category, and if people in this category are acting like their parents and grandparents to a large degree then they are woefully out of sync with the present-day society in which they live. If, for the sake of argument, one were going to say that the values of this generation need to be improved (whatever that might mean); then we would have to start with a complete renovation of our culture because many of their supposed shortcomings reflect very complex workings of culture and economics and aren't something as simple as unpleasant personal habits. I find most Gen Xers dull as ditch water (and I lived among them for a decade, have hired them, frequented their cafes and restaurants, etc.), but they live in the world as it is now and not in the various parts of my life journey that I have picked up and cobbled together as reflecting what is "good." It's their game, and if they complain we've left the playing field too muddy and chewed up to play baseball, and they get nekkid and start mud wrasslin' it ain't nobody's business if they do.

Public schools - many are quite wonderful, moreso perhaps in small towns and suburbs maybe. So, teachers are a bunch of bottom of the barrel dumbos, hardly fit to be coaches - huh, take a look at what parents are made: the same stuff. Unfortunately the Einsteins aren't breeding like rabbits to make up for the rest of us. The problem with the schools is the parents - even the biggest complainers, in fact often the biggest complainers, often exert very little positive influence over their kids learning habits. I've been a teacher and you get this BS, "Oh, my kids only get to watch and hour of TV a night....etc. etc." Hardy har har. Ask their kid about TV shows, and it's clear that night after night he watches TV about three hours more than his parents claim. But they sure as hell aren't going to come to school and say to the teachers that they do a poop job, and then tell the truth that their kids are sitting in front of the boob tube for hours, or on the Internet (that great educational tool - not!) or poking away at electronic games. It's parents, parents, parents first and foremost and most parents lie through their teeth about what their kids do with their time. Just talk with their kids.

Jack

TV watching is not new, you know! My kids mostly graduated in 1970's and they and their friends sometimes watched more TV than was healthy. One of my son's friends told us that he spent hours and hours watching TV in a NYC apartment, while his parents were at work, because he was afraid to go out onto the streets. He not only has a PHD in Theatre/ Drama but has won many awards plus scholarships to get himself through college. IMHO, its definitely the parents who have the most influence here when it comes to a child being ambitious and making use of his education and brains. And, even then, we can fail. Life is funny that way! It doesn't always go the way that you want it to go, no matter what you do to direct it.

Lorrie, I don't know just what to say to this person who emailed you as I think he/she needs to come into this folder and make it known how he/she feels. Certainly the comments are not offensive and would fit right in here.

"...... The problem with the schools is the parents - even the biggest complainers, in fact often the biggest complainers, often exert very little positive influence over their kids learning habits...."Amen!!

Two experienced teachers in the family and the tales all come back to the same thing,eg. what does not happen in the home. Or come watch in a community of 120 K people where 45 % are minorities , and 45 % of the 17 year old males drop out prior to High school completion and the biggest issue among the community is that 5 consecutive high school principals have been used up in the fight to impose discipline and raise academic scores( one of those "used" was replaced for changing the test scores among minority students who were failing) . 'Biggest complaint in that issue is that they ( the community political power group)" weren't consulted" in the appointment of the principals.

The principal spokesman (a church leader ) holds that the whole issue is a racial scheme. That in a town where the political majority is from their community.

Until those parents gain control of the teaching of values and acceptable behavior and impose expectations, generation after generation of the community is headed for the burger flipper brigade.Or , the current alternative; gangs and drug dealing.

If the same political powers( above ) had led the community reaction to the recent shooting of an 87 year old woman -in her home- at the same level of indignation that they reacted to( the perceived lack of control in) the schools there would be some indication that the agenda was commendable and the concern was realistic- BS indeed!!

Re: Generation X -- Whatever their ways, we'll probably never understand them. Here's an article about one of them. Link below.

"LEE'S SUMMIT, Mo. -- Les Horton spent three hours at the gym every day and stayed up late every night.
He didn't always get to class on time.
When he studied abroad, he sometimes skipped his classes.
So what did all that get him, in five years of college?
Only eight bachelor's degrees"

http://www.semissourian.com/story.html$rec=77977

That is an amazing story, Pedln! I got tired just reading it!!

So Gorman, parents are the ones who are blamed when a kid doesn't get it? Hmmmm! Seems like the parents must be ambitious for their children's successes. And not to expect the schools to do it all. It does take a village!

I really must congratulate everyone here who has posted on the way you have all kept to the subject, generally speaking. Your posts have all been thoughtful and to-the-point, and it is a pleasure just reading all the different comments and opinions.

We are not cancelling this discussion---on the contrary, we will be continuing on with a different topic every two weeks or so, but we will be taking a hiatus on July 1 for the rest of the Summer. Please continue to voice your opinions, we will be holding this page open until then. What a discerning bunch you all are!

Lorrie

There are many examples of the schools sytems not being able or willing to substitute for the families' responsibility. So many in fact that I get tired and upset when communities dragoon bond funds for more educational resources and then fail to work with their children to take advantage of the new resources.

Worse, those individuals and communities make it clear that they expect the public to underwrite more of the same.

The small percentage of the community that behaves in that manner routinely puts on a public face that everyone eles is at fault. And surprise, surprise there's a severe teacher shortage!And it falls most heavily in the very communities who are misbehaving.What an astounding discovery!

For those of you who like a good Summer's read, we heartily recommend, among others, two new discussions coming up in which you might be interested. Check them out.

GRAPES OF WRATH

BONESETTER'S DAUGHTER

Lorrie

Well, if we can talk about anything at all then I want to know:

What do we think about so many of us (young and old) being overweight?

What do we think about us or them killing Saddam Hussein?

I live on $652 each month from Social Security. I guess I am poor, but I don't need much--my home is paid for, I don't have a car, I am 67 and have everything under the sun. Except, what will I do if the taxes increase on my home to more than the exemptions I now have to cover those taxes?

How do we feel about Wal-Mart, Martha Stewart, the benefits of drinking green tea, getting dressed every day even when you're not going anywhere, the international women's treaty banning discrimination that our government refuses to sign (although 169 countries have signed it), newspapers, do we think a sales tax is more fair for funding schools than a property tax?

Now, don't ya'll all start talking at once. I'll wait.

HOWZAT

Gorman
I understand what you are saying. The whole educational system gets me down,too. So, I try to help out when I can, volunteering and joining the young people in their endeavors. The members of the Creative Writing group at our senior center are involved with the high school's writing club. We meet once in awhile and just feel each other out on writing and life, in general. It has given me a more positive feeling about the future of our world. These young people, encouraged and supported by their teachers, publish a booklet every year and they include contributions from us. The most gratifying part of the meetings is when we just sit and chat about our lives, young and not so young.
Howzat!

When I was younger, raising a family of rowdy children, I told a friend of mine that I only did dishes twice a day. Once before supper/dinner and once after. Now that my family is only me and Frank(really Ralph), I many times only dress twice a day. Put on bathrobe in the morning and put on dayclothes after lunch. Keeps me from getting breakfast and lunch spattered on myself! And sometimes, I just put on my bathing suit, in anticipation of swimming later in the day with my grans. Its summer!! Yayyyyyyy!

HOWZAT - I'm retired. That means I don't do any more work than I have to or wear any more clothes than I need. Sweats or shorts are common attire and "s---kicker boots" are handy by the door to cover my bare feet when I step outside.

Ms. E swears by green tea. Eating is fun - fat isn't. Newspapers waste much too much paper on ads no one reads. No kid of 80 pounds could carry 50 Sunday papers anymore.

HOWZAT You raised a lot of questions. I'll try to give short answers.

"What do we think about so many of us (young and old) being overweight?" It's a lot easier to put in on than it is to take it off. Metabolism is not fair to seniors.

"What do we think about us or them killing Saddam Hussein?" We should have taken him out when Papa had the chance. Now Junior has to finish the job.

"How do we feel about Wal-Mart" I personally am grateful to WalMart and always go there first. I get into a lot of arguments with one of my daughters who prefers (and can't afford)the lovely downtown Charlottesville Mall because it's all local. But there are lots of folks who can't afford to shop that way, and I'm one of them. " Martha Stewart, the benefits of drinking green tea, getting dressed every day even when you're not going anywhere, the international women's treaty banning discrimination that our government refuses to sign (although 169 countries have signed it), newspapers," I ignore Martha, alternate days with green tea and cammomile, shower and get dressed first thing in the morning. I can't get anything done in nightie and robe, we should sign the treaty, and newspapers take up 50% of my time.

"Do we think a sales tax is more fair for funding schools than a property tax?" Sales taxes are regressive and unfair to those with lower incomes. I would prefer to see more state aid to schools even if it means increasing state income taxes. Most districts can't do it on property tax alone.

Good questions, Howzat, I don't know about the answers.

What do we think about so many of us (young and old) being overweight? Too little exercise and too many calories - at least this is true in my case. I am trying hard to make life style changes in order to be healthier the rest of my life.

What do we think about us or them killing Saddam Hussein? George the First should have finished what he started, but I'm not sure we should be officially going in there now to take him out.

I live on $652 each month from Social Security. I guess I am poor, but I don't need much--my home is paid for, I don't have a car, I am 67 and have everything under the sun. Except, what will I do if the taxes increase on my home to more than the exemptions I now have to cover those taxes? Fortunately, we have enough for our expenses and to allow us to travel. But we certainly don't live "high on the hog", and don't go into debt.

How do we feel about Wal-Mart ,font size-3> Love it! Just about my only place to shop - other than for books and music, which I mostly buy on line or at the used book store. , Martha Stewart Martha Who??? Yuck! I don't allow her to cross my consciousness , the benefits of drinking green tea we drink coffee and a rare cup of regular tea , getting dressed every day even when you're not going anywhere I get "dressed" every day - even if only in sweats , the international women's treaty banning discrimination that our government refuses to sign (although 169 countries have signed it) Shame on us! , newspapers, We read the paper every day when we're at home, and try to do so when we're not. We love reading papers from other cities. And, of course, the most important part is the comic page and the editorial cartoons. do we think a sales tax is more fair for funding schools than a property tax Don't get me started on that! Our do-nothing legislature has refused to do any sort of tax reform for the last 3 years (although I haven't seen the news today - they may have finally done something). We already have an 8.75% sales tax (so terribly regressive), and they've already spent the tobacco settlement money just to balance last year's budget. And we still don't have a personal income tax. All property tax in TN is reserved to the counties and municipalities. What a mess!

Very thought-provoking, Howzat. Thanks.

Mary

Another interesting email that I received from a participant who is perhaps a bit older than some of our posters. I think you might enjoy reading his commentaries on yet another generation:

" Before I submit a statement you should know that my birthdate is 10-10-20. As a post WW1 baby I was in the generation that became the first generation in which large numbers of children were encouraged to stay home and complete an education. Also I have lived in the same community all of my years, and realize now how we were protected ,as if in a cocoon, from most of the problems of the outer world.

I remember my childhood and youth, until I went into the Army Air Corps in 1942, as a wonderful time of opportunity and almost unbridled freedom. My mother early on in the 1920's told me that I could do anything or go anyplace I wanted to so long as "I did the right thing". Her guiding principle to me was freedom is good and important.so long as you exercise responsibility. I could relate many examples of my exercise of freedom as a young child. I'll mention two: When in the second grade the teacher explained how we should have our teeth examined. After school that day I went uptown and visited a dentist. He examined my teeth and I told him my dad would pay him. When I arrived home I told my mother what I had done. She said: "That's good we need good teeth". Later in the same school year the teacher informed us about small pox and getting vaccinated. After school I went to a doctor's office and requested a vaccination. I remember that we went to his desk where he broke a small glass rod and dipped it into a bottle and scratched my arm. He then told me to watch it for a few days. If it got sore to come back. Again I told the doctor that my dad would pay him. Again arriving home my mother said: "You did the right thing". I have many of these stories of my childhood freedom. It was wonderful even though I had a few failures.

I would like to move on to after WW2. When we returned home (in my case after 1 1/2 years as a POW) we were so glad to be here and free to get on with our life that in my opinion many of us failed to teach our children the importance of freedom with responsibility -- As my mother said: To "Do The Right Thing". This failure starting with my generation has in part set the stage for many of problems that we are facing today.

I could write many pages on this failure and the resulting consequences. I'll spare you !.

Bill Minor

Lorrie

In New Zealand it would be impossible to live on $652 a month even if you owned your own home. Seniors get $240 a month more than you do in the USA. I know our dollar is worth less but you have to think of it as dollar for dollar if you are living here and collecting NZ dollars.

I have noticed how inexpensive it is to buy a meal out in the USA. I note a lot of seniors do eat out, I can see why.

Carolyn

I heard an Italian interviewed this morning where he mentioned that when he went grocery shopping in the states, it cost more than eating out would have. Ah, but there is the thrill of making dinner! I jest!

Re : eating out-

It cetainly is not hard to run a bill = a portion of the nation debt.However a recent experience has caused me to pay more attention: my wife and I decided to try the "Outback Steak House" . we had never eaten in one. After a fish dinner for each and the one drink I ordered, no appetizer, no desert, no tea or coffee, the bill came to < $50. This may not impress those from larger cities, but it got my attention!

I have often spent considerably more than that on a dinner for two, but in a mcrestruant? come on!

While our grocery bill weekly (we eat well ) would not have been seriously impacted, I judge that paying attention to perceived value vs trend is a part of the equation, as it is in any number of things.

I used to think it was fun, and enjoyed it. But more and more often, I come away thinking, "I could fix better than that." My community is certainly not a Mecca of fine dining. But when eating out, I like more choices than steak, fish, and chicken. I want something that takes thought and time to make -- something I can't do at home.

There is one restaurant about 30 miles from me that has something i can't do by myself at home -- and that's at the home of "throwed rolls" (That's 'cause they won't bounce off the walls.)

I used to say that ANY food that somebody else prepared was good food (including airplane and hospital food). But since we've been travelling, I really appreciate being able to just have a snack or a salad without having to put "outside" clothes on, or just sit and watch the news during dinner (which we almost never do). That's one of the reasons why I like it when we take our travel trailer - we can eat out when we choose, or eat in...and be pretty choosy in either place.

Mary

Lorrie - I thought the letter from, Bill Minor, was thoughtful and insightful. I wish he would post into this discussion, and we could discuss this issue in more depth.

Yes, we eat out more than we should and I,too, get tired of making choices of fish, chicken or steak. And, quite frankly, I get tired of deciding what to try, when I know that I can put together good food and friends right here at home. We have taken to trying different ethnic restaurants in our area which are a challenge. We have tried Mediterranean, Greek, Mexican, Chinese and French. We find the smaller family-owned restaurants the better choice. Have become enamoured with the choice of Greek. Prices are reasonable,too.

Eating out is a treat for Seniors here it can be expensive. I must say though the food is of a very high standard. We have huge choices of different types of cooking. I have not had a meal out for about 2 years. I cook from scratch myself and I am a very good cook but sometimes I get fed up with feeding one! There is no incentive!

What is your favorite ethnic dish?

Carolyn

Like so many women, my beloved of almost 55 years has had it in the cooking department. Just about total burnout. And I can fully understand that situation. Me, I can whap up a good bowl of oatmeal so I am not much help there. She can do up a great meal for guests and does that now and then. But that is more a thing of pride and willingness to entertain. She is a great hostess and has had lots of practice. But the daily grind for meal making is just that; a grind! So we frequently eat out, probably more than we should. In this area there are lots of choices of levels of dining. Personally, I get no big thrill over a listing of entries starting at $20.00 and up. We have one place we frequent where the food preparation is very good but the quantity so great we unabashedly take half of it home in a box. There is another local restaurant that caters to the Senior Trade from a nearby Leisure World retirement community . They feature "early bird" dinners that allows a choice of eight of so entries (and I love their Catfish when they have it)and includes choice of soup or salad , choice of drink and dessert, all included, for $6 to $8, and amazingly good food. So there is some relief for Mama in the cooking department and thats good because I want her to last a long time. Losalbern

Marilyne:

I, too, thought the letter from Bill Minor was quite thoughtful. He seems like a very nice person. I have urged him, when I asked his permission to post his letter, to come into this discussion and tell us his thoughts, and I hope he will.

Bill, are you lurking? Let's hear from you!

Incidentally, have any of you faithful readers looked into our new page, MEET THE BOOKIES We are urging all the participants in our discussions to join in and get acquainted with each other. One of our "techies" has graciously offered to post any messages or photos you would care to send. Come and join us and get better acquainted!

Lorrie

At the beginning, QVC kept me company during the night when I could'nt fall asleep. But now 6 months later, I am working very hard to turn off its powerful attraction that has cost me well over $8000. It's become a form of an addiction and I find myself thinking about the program while I am weeding my garden or when I am cooking up a storm with all those wonderful appliances I have purchased from QVC. Suddenly I have become a supplier of good things from my kitchen to my country neighbors and though I am enjoying it completely - QVC has got to go. I am from the silent generation. Filamena

We must keep in mind that the generation before this generation is RESPONSIBLE for what we have today. Children are to be guided by their parents and if you watch what is going on, some children today have NO ROLE MODELS.

What is QVC?

HOWZAT

Pooh Baby, I do not post much but keep track of what is going on so I say to you that the goverment took away our right to raise our childern in the old fashion way and we are reaping that out come and it is not working as our goverment can not get things under control.

Ginger

Very astute, Ms Ginger!! But, didn't we let them? And, why didn't we fight harder to keep our rights and in the long run, the childrens'? Once again, hindsight is 20/20. And, as I said in an earlier post, there are things we could do, as grans and the elder generation, in the way of volunteering and mentoring.

howzat!!

What's QVC? Oh, dear, its the Sears catalogue of the air waves and very well presented by enthusiastic promoters! The biggest infomercials on TV! And, you just know that those young things are talking only to you! It is addictive and one must avoid it like the plague! I have ordered just three things from QVC in the last 12 years and realized that ordering from anywhere can be a mistake from color choices to sizes. And I think that you, the customer, gets to pay the return shipping too!! Not good! When I returned a quilt last year, I made myself take a vow of avoidance when it comes to ordering over the internet or from any catalogue. I throw away all catalogues after getting ideas only while perusing them.

Pedlin.....I have eaten in the resturant of "throwed rolls"....lived in Missouri at one time as you know......in fact all of my life until the last two years......by the way.....have found some very good resturants in this central part of Florida.....yesterday we stopped at a little cafe in a small town and a dozen pan fried shrimp, (very delicately) with two side dishes and drinks for 5.99......other good looking thins on that menu too.....the cafe was also quite clean......the shrimp were so delicious......not at all heavily breaded and greasy.....

In our travelling on the smaller highways, we've found that some of the best places to eat are cafes on or near the town squares - especially ones named "City Cafe" or "The [town name] Cafe". We've found them to have good, plain, inexpensive food, with wonderful friendly service, and, as a bonus, great eavesdropping. We seldom talk to each other, just listen in to the conversations of the locals and regulars.

Good food and entertainment, too.

Mary

I, too, had not heard of QVC--probably because I watch very little TV.

We prefer to eat out at lunch, when both the portions and the prices are generally smaller than in the evening. Also, it's not as serious a rush hour and there are fewer drunks on the road. Plus, I don't like to drive after dark.

We don't do fast food, just modest, family-owned places as a rule. The Italian place we most often patronize serves, even at lunch, portions big enough for doggie bags. So our bill covers four servings.

Every 3-4 weeks we go to a German place in Chicago. The wienerschnitzel is excellent but we have found nothing else we like there. Again, one bill, four servings.

You have no idea how much I hate to admit this, but QVC stands for Quality Value Channel. And it's 24 hours of short informercials - just selling stuff. There are other channels, too - I think Home Shopping Network (HSN), etc. If you have cable, check your list of channels and you'll probably see 2-3 of them. I looked in when we first got cable 20 years ago, and was bored to tears and/or nausea in about 2 minutes, so have never looked again. I have heard that people can get addicted to them, though.

Mary

Within 5 mins from where I live there are restaurants and cafes of every ethnic origin. Turkish, Greek, Chinese, Thai, French, Italian and nearly all of our restaurants do some ethnic dishes. We also have our own Pacific Rim cuisine which is very nice. Sushi is also very popular here. Twenty years ago New Zealanders were not that adventurous with food but now we are probably amongst the most adventurous and innovative diners and cooks in the world.

Carolyn

I deleted both shopping networks from my remote after viewing them a couple of times. Found them very boring, however, I have several friends who talk about those salespeople like they were personal friends. Amazing!

I have never been interested in shopping channels on TV. They don't give the selection for comparison I find necessary to feel comfortable shopping. Instead, they are just hawking one product after another. The old Sears catalog was a different story. It would often list three products for comparison - good, better, best. Information on all the details was always right there in print. If you bought a pair of jeans, you knew what they were made of, how heavy the material was, what sort of seams (flat felled) and if the ends of the seams were bartacked. The products were always guaranteed and most important, shipping charges were directly related to the weight of the product and their actual cost of mailing or delivering it to the customer, rather than some way out of line shipping and HANDLING charge per item or per dollar spent.

I bought a butter churn, baby chicks, clothes for myself and my kids, chicken wire, yarn, bedding, my freezer and washer, and many other products from the Sears catalog. A WalMart 40 miles away does NOT replace the faithful Sears catalog.

As for current specialty catalogs, I order from several, but not often the ones whose specialty is high mark-up gifts and junk. I like Herrschners for needlework supplies, yarn, etc., specialized book catalogs, one with medical aids and supplies, etc. All these represent companies with good reputations which have been in business a long time. Also, I often buy online from similar companies. It just costs so much to travel to a bigger city to shop and our local stores are so limited (often with very high prices.)