Curious Minds ~ 2004 April Export

Welcome to Curious Minds
As We
Celebrate Diversity!

Dolls Handmade by Karen Quebe, Outreach Coordinator, KLRU TV

Diversity too often becomes a catch phrase that loses its meaning but Karen brings joy to those exploring diversity in our community.

I met Karen last summer when we prepared for our participation in "By the People" and was immediately taken with her collection of dolls. The dolls are part of a two year program Karen has developed for teachers to teach and celebrate diversity with their students.

This "Curious Minds" is a small adaptation of her work. We are privileged to have these magnificent professional photos of part of Karen's collection of boy and girl dolls. The other photos are in (click on the Title) Story Telling with Persona Dolls

- Please take time to read the links below, your effort will be well spent.

- As we take this opportunity to celebrate our diversity let's look for common themes among our diverse narratives.

"No man (woman or child) is an island"
During this "Curious Minds" discussion share with us:

Your own story celebrating your diverse characteristics and/or lifestyle
Create a Persona Doll and tell us about the doll.

Here are some links to examples of folks who shared their Diversity
||Grandfathers||Nourishing Roots ||Superman ||Personal Story ||

While sharing stories let's not fall into the TRAP...
Let's share from a place of empowerment because of our 'Diversity'
rather than writing our own story or the doll's story
from the often stereotyped and mythical examples used to explain away diverse lifestyles.
Common negative attitudes used to explain those with special needs:

They are romanticized - ex: Helen Keller or Beethoven (look at the wonderful things they were able to do)
Spoken or written about as pitiable and pathetic, an object to be pitied
As a victims of violence
As sinister or evil - ex: Treasure Island - Black Dog is introduced as "a tallow-faced man, wanting two fingers."
As atmosphere - thrown in for effect. ex: the blind man with a cup, or the blind musician
As a saint or godly person, some "brave little soul"
As laughable open to ridicule
As a burden, who have to be taken care of, they cannot be independent
As nonsexual, either unable to have a sexual relationship or it is simply not talked about, or the girlfriend helps him through it and the boy recovers, or the girl is dependent while the boy wants other activities.
They live in total isolation and they are angry and frustrated because of their disability

Here are the links for our Curious Minds - Celebrating Diversity.

||Adorable Dora is Opening the Doors of Diversity ||
||Celebrating Diversity vs. Preparing for the Mainstream: a Pseudo-Controversy? ||
|| Story Telling with Persona Dolls - The site includes additional photos of Karen's dolls and her suggested Children's Books that can tell a story of a doll. ||

Discussion Leader:
Barbara St. Aubrey

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Hope y'all can do a bit better than I seem to be able to do - it is so much easier for me to see diversity all around me but to understand how I add to diversity - what is the areas of diversity in my life - who am I that makes me different than my neighbors - hmmmm that is hard - I need time to think on that and to run my thoughts by the list above so I can transform my thoughts into what is positive about my differences.

For me, Karen's dolls are enchanting - I have all this fabric that I will never use as it was originaly intended - what a perfect project - but rather than making a muslin doll from scratch I think I will order one or two pre-made muslin dolls from the shops linked in Story Telling with Persona Dolls

My grandboys have all grown too old now to be interested in dolls - they are boys in the 7th, 8th, and 9th grades - I would love to find a play that speaks to diversity and make still figures on sticks that can be slide onto a stage while we each take a part - with that as an opening I could see engaging them in conversation about how they see, not so much handling but, how they could celebrate diversity.

I wish there was a book about a child who watches as one of their parents is taken into custady by the police and how they feel and manage their life while one of the parents are in jail. There is a group here in town that I never inquired about who work with families of prisoners - I think I will call them just to find out what they do and if they are aware of any resources. I hoped to make a few of these dolls for the children of prisoners but I understand now that an inmate cannot receive such a gift and so here also I am challanged to come up with something meaningful.

I thought the story of Superman was so well done - to be able to understand and accept to the point of writing so well about your own diverse life that is not approved of by many was an amazing thing for me to read.

As y'all can see this topic has grabbed me - I'm looking forward to all of your posts - your posts may clarify for me what impact we can have and how we can still make an impact on our families and communities to celebrate our diversity. Not ignore it and hope others ignore our diverse lifestyle but to celebrate it - wow what a concept!

Hi Barbara,

I am excited about your new discussion. The photograph of the dolls caught my eye. If I can stop looking at the adorable dolls, I can read the links. "Celebrating Diversity" is always exciting. I am looking forward to the discussion.

What a wonderful topic for discussion. I read all the stories and was so taken with them.

I have lots of fabric for dolls ..since I have made my own clothes since I was a preteen. My mother was a skilled seamstress..I think WAY BACK then most ladies were. While mother didnt make clothes for my brothers or father she made hers, mine and my "Little Grandma's"

Let me see if I understand ..we are to make a doll that represents ourselves..and also a story to accompany the doll ? Stories I already have as I have written stories of my childhood for my children and my grandchildre...especially the grandchildren.

Will finish reading all the resources and I have never heard of Dora..must ask my grandchildren who age from soon to be 11 -3. Three each ..although my youngest will marry for the second time next week and will add a new granddaughter for me who is 14..wonder if she will like me to make her something ??????/anna

Barbara. I am trying to find answers to the question of diversity. Diversity meaning diverse conditions in humans? I would understand it like Anna does. But that is very hard to do because we have to step aside ourselves and look within where sometimes we don't know what is there within. We don't necessarily have the right picture. The doll reminds me of how psychologists using dolls with a small girl who has been abused and she has to explain that 'the doll' has been hurt.

But you say: "Let's share from a place of empowerment because of our 'Diversity' rather than writing our own story or the doll's story" What do you mean?

I will come back. Thanks for bringing this up Barbara. I know it will be interesting.

Eloïse

great - this is a subject that is so all encompassing isn't it - and oh so right Eloise - it is hard to look at yourself and see how we have something unique about ourselves - it seems so easy if you are obviously ill or handicapped or celebrate your race that is not from Europe or celebrate a religion that is not considered mainstream.

I know for me my whole life has been filled with secrets - secrets that I felt compelled to hide from friends and society in general - but secrets I felt I had to overcome, or make up for, since they had to do with family members. Even my ethnicity is not celebrated as it was when I was a child - I am of mostly German heritage and at the start of WWII in Europe we had an experience here that led my family to decide they should no longer speak in German - I guess I could make a doll with a story about having secrets that are not named but allow the child to use the doll to uncover their secrets - but that to me is dangerous since sometimes the only power you have left is to be in control of your secrets - hmmm

I know we still celebrate St. Nicholas day on the 6th of December and that is different - ah so - I need to think on this...

Now as I understand it is to make a doll that has characteristics of the children where the receiver of the Persona Doll can share stories of either their own diversity or the issues of some of the other children - Anna you would be a natural to make a doll with a story that the doll/child either has a seeing impairment or someone is the doll/childs family is sight impaired and how they deal with it. Didn't you say you have a daughter that is sight impared and even you- aren't you hearing impared - wow what a lot you have to celebrate...

Yes, I think the issue is that no difference is an opportunity to show victimization but rather by using that word celebrate which means to honor, to extol publicly, be festive - the root for celebrity, is taking the diversity and elevating the person to living with the same issues we all face only they may have some special needs that they must keep in mind. Like speaking English in certain situations, or watching how to go up a curb if they are in a wheel chair - I think the idea is we can all name the issues and feel the pain of what it is like to be considered different - but if we want our children to feel empowered not in spite of but including their differences than we better get busy ourselves and start speaking of our own differences with pride and as a matter of fact - yes there is an imbalance of power and how you look or what church you attend often puts you in a bad place but the idea here is to say - no bad place - I am me and I am wonderful and I deserve to celebrate what is me...

Had my grandboys still been young boys I would have felt great about making some boy dolls that had one being Jewish since there was a friend of my grandsons who is Jewish - and another in a wheelchair since they had a family friend who was a bit older but who had MS and has now died - I would have made another doll who is Mexican since we live in an area with about a 39% Latino population although we do not have any personal friends who are Mexican --

Hmmm just thought of something as I am writing this - I have a wonderful young Chinese Indonesian family who has a young boy that just entered school and he learned his English was not very clear - He the young boy has decided only to speak in English and to pooh pooh any of what his parents tell him about his Indonesian grandparents, uncles and the customs of their country. Wow - ok now they suggestion is to have more than one doll and so I can find a typical young boy in his classroom setting to make into another doll.

I like this - there is more about thinking of the doll's identity than anything else - I think the idea of making the list of what the doll/child likes and who the doll/child is will be a better starting point.

I am thinking as I am writing here folks - I am no more an expert at this than you are - we are definitely learning together -

Boy do I ever agree with you Hats - those photos are delicious - I remember as a kid the big treat was to go to a department store and see all the dolls and when my daughter was little there was someone in our area who leased out a store for the season and using white paper he folded and worked these giant backdrops that had all these nooks that he set up separate themes for about a 100 dolls that he sold - he had one that he built a miniature swing and a doll was on the swing - another the doll was in a bed - another she was reaching for a butterfly - on and on - with gauze hanging from the ceiling and using colored lights the lights cast these defused colors all over the set is the only way I can describe it. He even had a larger than usual train going all around the store at table height with dolls sitting in the train.

You know bottom line I was thinking the other day while doing this - we take so many little things for granted - I realized if I was a child with no doll that mirrored my looks what must that be like - in fact I thought supposed my community were completely made up of say Latinos or Black folks or Chinese folks and I as a white person only represented as the Oriental in Austin 9% or 14% of Black families or 39% of Latino families - how would that change my outlook and what products would I want to see made available for my children, especially dolls who so mimic the look of a child.

Now if I was a guy doing this project I think I would go purchase a couple of dolls that could be the main character in a couple of children's books that I would find - and then I would get a nice bound journal like those you find for about $8. in the book stores and I would make a package of doll - book - journal and make the donation to the center for abused children or to my local Sunday School or the children's ward of a nearby hospital. Wow I just thought - wouldn't it be great for fireman or who ever sees families after their house has gone on fire - maybe it is the Red Cross -

Just musing about all this is bringing up a whole other issue - I have no idea what services are in my community that help children during various traumas.

Oh I have loved musing and chatting about the issues y'all bring up - this is great...

I think I have it...a great idea to use a doll ( not necessarily one I would make ) and write a story first about my grandchildrens Aunt Roberta my oldest who is legally blind ( I will ask her permission) and I could do a Nana doll with a small ..oh gee just when I want a word it goes scampering off.. a small ..almost had it ..you know one of those curved shapes that hold fruit ..cornecopia AH HA .. as a "earphone" and explain how her hearing is very poor ..which they already know but this would help them I think to understand ...since my grandchildren are in public school they already have friends who are black, spanish , and oriental..and as far as I can tell they see no difference in them. Thank goodness they come from backgrounds that included all of the above. They have a great aunt who is Japanese, and of course cousins who are 1/2 Japanese, neighbors who are black and who swam on the swim team with them ...my oldest daughter had black friends who were at our house often when she was growing up plus some really wierd friends ...LOL which makes me laugh to recall. so the younger children grew up with that. And my husband's aunt, and my mother visited often for extended periods of time...they wont see that in this new generation. I live near, as do the rest of the family including in laws...they see us often in our own homes although they do stay over once in awhile ...It is certainly a different world since I was little although I had the good fortune to live in a mixed neighborhood and my Irish Grandmother lived with us for nearly 9 years.

By the way I think there is a similiar program here using puppets...I will have to inquire because I see they are used in church settings to help understand the many things we see in life and our reaction to it...Your discussion is already opening doors in my mind to make sure my grandchildren do understand. anna

annafair: You may be thinking of "Kids on the Block" which is a program that's been around for a lot of years.

Here are some links: http://www.thekidsontheblock.com/

http://www.kotb.com/

jane

I think you are right...it has been mentioned in our newspaper and I am sure that is the title...Our church is located next to a school and about five years ago started a program called Study Buddies ...eventually spread to other areas. These were older children 5th and 6th graders. Parents had to sign for the children to participate and had to pick them up no later than five-thirty. It was so successful because the children showed marked improvement in thier grades and understanding of subjects.

We had refreshments when they arrived ..lemonade and cookies and small sandwiches , peanut butter , cheese etc. They were divided by subject and we also had about 5 computers so they learned computers as well. If we finished early we had games too. I was so sorry when my hearing just dramatically went down hill because it was rewarding to see the improvement....anna

What a lovely spring day here - and next weekend is EASTER - I can hardly believe it - this year is just rolling right along -

Thanks Jane for those links - and Anna just learning you were a part of something like Study Buddies is so fine - I bet you got as much out of it as the children and now you miss it - is the program still active - with so many moms working what a great way for children to have a safe way to do homework or to learn while they are cared for rather than being home in an empty house with the TV turned up high.

Found this interesting site that has the emphasis on telling stories - although the theme is directed towards lesbian moms the questions suggested can be used to uncover how anyone feels in various situations -

The Power of Stories

I love the quote from Muriel Rukeyser - "The world is made of stories, not atoms."

Today the TV has become the story teller for most older children and even the younger ones - although it seems easy to cuddle with a little one and read or tell stories it is harder to have that relationship with young teenage boys.

They say as we age we are the keeper of the family stories and how we share them will be how the family finds its roots. hmmmm

I wonder if that is part of why my daughter loves living in a mountain community in NC - I wonder if she feels more connected to her roots - her growing up years was in Kentucky and every summer we were in the Appalachians - we moved here to Austin when she was in the seventh grade but each summer she went back for seven weeks to attend camp in those mountains where as my youngest was only in the first grade when we moved here and married a girl, whose family for generations has lived in Austin so their moving back to Lubbock seems so right - they lived for nearly three years in Oregan and between the rain and the difference in how people acted toward each other they just couldn't take it - they came home as they call it seven years ago.

Where as my oldest son never married and lives on the side of a mountain in New Mexico in a house made of dirt and tires would you believe - now talk about diverse lifestyle that is my Peter - he never valued money or success - right out of the late 60s - he helps the Indians in the area get grants to travel and share their heritage - grows some fruit trees but he doesn't say and I don't ask - Northern New Mexico has this reputation of having a great haze over the area and so I think it is probably what he grows under the trees that takes care of him and his friends.

I think what I am seeing in this is my greatest diversity is my children - they are so totally different from each other - the oldest still thinks it is 1969 - my youngest is now an area manager for Fed Ex and politicaly a disciple of Bush - a great guys man and yet so attuned to his boys it is amazing to watch - those boys have never been punished without the end of the "speaking to" concluding with a kiss on the head -

My daughter the middle child is an artist and teaches children, has been successful in Business, is the contractor, building her own house that is architectualy unique with a regulation size half basketball court as the center of the house - she is very outgoing and they are all at the top of their game plus.

Needless to say I am proud of these children and my grands but they are three very different people and even my sons three boys which include twins are so different from each other - that makes me smile.

Wow I just thought of something - it would be neat - I could make a doll similar to each of my family members and have a journal for each - I love making books - so the journal could be just the right size needed and in it I can put my memories along with photos of each of them. Wow what a project that would be - I really need to think on this...

Such an interesting and candid post. I love the diversity of your family, AND your ability to "go with the flow". Thank you for sharing.

Howzat

Hi Howzat - thanks - I hoped if I shared others would feel better about sharing their diversity - and yep, all you can do is go with the flow - once they are grown they choose their own lifestyle and all three of my children have chosen differently - but you love them to pieces even if you couldn't or maybe it is wouldn't live their lifestyle...later you smile and realize all we have is ourselves to add to our community and that is worthy of being celebrated regardless someone chooses another lifestyle to celebrate.

I just wonder how many of us think in terms of celebrating differences - reading so much now about this I now see the value - when folks feel worthy and honor how they are different, rather than feeling shame as many in society wish they would feel, then each person and family feels valued and we end up with more folks contributing to our overall well being.

Howzat have you ever felt excluded and hurt because you didn't fit in or was looked upon as different?

Barbara, my youngest child sounds much like your oldest. After getting her PhD in physics she decided she didn't want to be a techie all her life and went to Guatemala to work with Mayan women who were learning to make and use solar cookers. Now she lives in Virginia, works with Hispanics and migrant workers in her area in a health outreach program. She's not married, has a small house in a racially mixed neighborhood.

Her brother lives in an affluent DC suburb. While his children see cultural diversity at school and among their friends, it does concern me that they see little economic diversity. Their schools, Scouts, soccer teams all come from the same area. I'm glad they're well provided for, but I wonder if they have any idea that there are children who don't have music lessons and books or who don't get breakfast before they go to school.

amazing isn't it pedln the extreem differences in our children brought up in the same household - and I keep thinking to myself why do I have a chill when I see their exteems in action - I get a chill of fear still for my eldest - if anything happened to him sort of thinking and yet if I really think on it - he may not have money but resources and friends out of the gazoos - and then when I see my daughter's thinking that does not seem to make space for folks who are not as capable or as driven as she I go aahhkk - hehehe and even my youngest when he gets on his Bush the hero kick I feel like rolling my eyes but don't. Oh dear what is that saying - do we want everyone to be like ourselves?!? Ohh and here I thought I was Ok with diversity...

Well at least I am not fussing at any of them - but the idea of celebrating these differences - well it has made me think...

If I dont post It isnt because I am not interested ..two things coming up ..going to NC from the 9th to the 17th most likely without the use of a computer..since I will be up island quite a way...and also this computer is being difficult..wont let me finish a sentence sometimes, dumps me when I am ready to post. To say it is aggravating is the understatement of the year.

I think a study of the diversity of life and humankind is important ..since it is my belief until we can understand and appreciate our differences we wil never get along....thinking of my birds at my feeders...I love the cardinals and bluejays, the doves, the wood peckers and really dislike the starlings but I feed them all. I wish my squirrels would leave the feeders along and keep out of things I have planted still if feed them critter food so they dont starve. To me people are like the birds...Some I like better but I love them all because they are lovable in their own

sorry but couldnt finish above...anna

Oh Anna thanks for trying - how wonderful to see the birds at a feeder as an example - happy trails to SC - will you be there for Easter - many folks will be on the road this week - I understand it is the start of Spring Break for the children in NC - my daughter will be on the road as they visit her in-laws in Missouri - Spring Break here was two weeks ago...

Barbara, your family sounds like mine. I think your kids are much younger than mine according to what you say. Mine are all over 40, so they went through the terrible teens, not all of them mind you, I think my eldest son Daniel was rather reflective when he was young. Look at him now. So sedate and conservative, even more so than I am. My eldest daughter was totally independent even early on. Today she lives in California and she is now totally American in her lifestyle. She speaks a little Spanish, still has good French even if she left Montreal some 30 years ago.

My mother having lived in Winnipeg all her childhood was very open with people of other nationalities and she was a good example for us. My husband's mother was half German half Scottish, his father Fr. Canadian. My youngest daughter married a man who is half Irish, half Scandinavian, so my grands have mixed blood galore.

I think that today children are more open and don't really make a difference between color and race as school kids are a big mixture of races of all colors. It is so good to see that. Remember the movie, "Guess who's coming to Dinner" with Katherin Hepburn and Spencer Tracy?

In Montreal on a certain bus, you can hear as many as 5 languages spoken besides French and English. We see a lot of stores run by Muslims. Many store signs are written in Arabic. I never hear of vandalism because of race in Montreal. Our Jewish community is not targeted.

Anne, I don't have feeders but I can probably have some in this new house. I will think about that soon.

Eloïse

How grand to see your post Eloise - yes I remember Daniel joined us when we were looking at America's foreign relations in the By the People discussion - bright and yes reflective - I enjoyed our conversation -

My children are not all that young - the two older ones are to the day, 9 months and 6 weeks apart - and so for a bit they are the same age - My daughter had her children after a successful career and late marriage - her youngest she had at age 40 and she is 50 this year while my oldest is 51 - I know it is frightening - I look in the mirror and thing - what the heck happened - my youngest is 44 and he would hate it if I said anything but to me he is still my youngest and in my head I picture him at about 19 - once I even caught myself as I was trying to take over as if he was a kid - boy did I ever pull back quickly - and was I embarrassed - but he and Sally are in great shape and hardly look their age - in fact few can imagine my daughter is her age either - somehow none of us look our age - when we went to fairs years ago they never could guess their ages and so they won that one prize everytime - it was such a sure thing even though the barker was supposed to guess within three years - they all had to provide proof.

How wonderful to read in your post that Jewish and Muslim store owners are working in the same city without bombing each other's property. Did you see the PBS special about immigrants - there is a young women from Palestine who ends up teaching in a Jewish Day Care center in Chicago - she is lovely and at peace loving the children although some of her family including her sister do not understand her and her choice especially since she even had a brother killed by what is going on.

Eloise, about 8 0r 9 years ago, I went to an elderhostel in the Eastern Townships of Quebec. We spent a day in Montreal, but never did get to Quebec City. I hope to return someday. At the Elderhostel we spent the afternoons visiting various artisans and the morning learning about Quebec and the language situation. At that time we were told that there was a strong push to have only French in the province of Quebec, and that all signs, including those on private businesses had to be a certain size in French. There were a lot of jokes about the language police. Has that situation changed at all?

Also, our Auberge hosts told us that there were very strict regulations about who could attend English speaking schools. Their children had to go to the French speaking school. I know I'm sounding fuzzy about this, but it was a long time ago and I didn't really understand it that well. Hope you can straighten me out.

This is not exactly what you are all discussing - yet it seems to be. Francy

Love

This is probably one of the better descriptions of "love."

It was a busy morning, approx. 8:30 A.M. when an elderly gentleman, in his 80's, arrived to have sutures removed from his thumb.

He stated that he was in a hurry as he had an appointment at 9:00 A.M. I took his vital signs and had him take a seat, knowing it would be over an hour before someone would be able to see him.

While taking care of his wound, we began to engage in conversation. I asked him if he had a doctor's appointment this morning, as he was in such a hurry.

The gentleman told me no, that he needed to go to the nursing home to eat breakfast with his wife.

I then inquired as to her health. He told me that she had been there for a while and that she was a victim of Alzheimer Disease.

As we talked, and I finished dressing his wound, I asked if she would be worried if he was a bit late. He replied that she no longer knew who he was, that she had not recognized him in five years now.

I was surprised and asked him, "And you are still going every morning, even through she doesn't know who you are?" He smiled as he patted my hand and said, "She doesn't know me, but I still know who she is."

I had to hold back tears as he left, I had goose bumps on my arms, and thought, "That is the kind of love I want in my life."

True love is neither physical, nor romantic. True love is an acceptance of all that is, has been, will be......

And that my friends, says it all----------------

FrancyLou, "love" is most certainly what we are talking about when we discuss diversity (implying the acceptance of same). The story you told of the elderly man going to see his wife, who didn't know who he was anymore, is the most heartwarming thing I've heard in YEARS. Thank you so much.

Barbara, I have been shunned, scorned, and left out of things more times than I care to remember. The practice of my belief that "all men (and women) are created equal" gets me in trouble, a lot. It seems that some people just will exclude other people because of what I call "cosmetic reasons", eg., what clothes are worn, grammer used, table manners (born from ignorance, not laziness), socio-economic circumstances/background, choice of significant other, and so forth.

There are good reasons to exclude people from your life. Violent people, deliberately rude people, habitual criminals, and people who cheat, lie and prey on the vulnerable. It is only prudent to avoid these kinds of persons.

Yes, I saw all the episodes of that PBS program "The Immigrants" (there were segments on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday). It was so well done. My heart goes out to all those who come here, after having only seen "America" on television programs, trying to make it in the real America. Our America is the best of all places, but we are no where near perfect. We've been working at having a "real" democracy for more than 200 years, and we've come a long way towards that goal, but we're not there yet.

Howzat

Oh my goose bumps Francylou - your story makes me curious - I wonder if we love what we know or if we get to know and as a result we love - whcih makes me think even further are we attracted to get to know based on what we do know - I know I sound like a riddle but it is something to contemplate -

AH yes Howzat the barriers that not only do we put up but the ones society as a group put up and the dilemma how to fit into society without giving up yourself. When you saw the PBS three night special didn't it make you want to reach out and take one of these families under your wing - our cities are so large now that it is hard to bump into folks without searching them out who may need a long time citizen as a friend.

Someone shared that Katie Curac (sp) the morning TV personality - had a show on dolls not very long ago - had any of you seen it? I am curious what the show said...

That was as others said an extremely touching story..I am not sure we love someone immediately ..love is not full blown when we first know it ..takes time to grow. Perhaps it creeps toward you and then one day it is there and you understand what it is ...There was an elderly gentleman I met on the internet. We had an interest in ham radio and exchanged emails , pictures and stories ..Like the gentleman in your post Francy he was a special person ..not in his wifes life since she had died some years before but in a mutual friends wife whose husband died while she lived in nursing home . He cared for her...loved her in deepest sense of love. He visited her every day , took her small items and was there for her until she died too. He sent me pictures of her and I wrote her letters . She was such a fragile beauty and with out him , since she had no other she would have been alone. When she died he moved to Kansas city and stayed with his son. We kept in touch until his death ..I miss him because he was love...the kind we should all be ...and many of us run from because it requires more of us than we are willing to give.

Just thinking of that post...anna

Barbara, I always want to take hard working folks home with me, when they have run up against impossible odds that counters every effort they make. I just have that impulse, however impractical it is. I mean, what would taking them home with me do? I think that is a physical reaction to the idea of "enfolding" people, who have been unjustly treated, in the "trusting safety of your arms". (^:^)

I know that when stories like "The Immigrants" appear, I always wish the program makers would publish addresses where folks like me could send contributions (not the actual person's address, but some clearing house place where the money could be forwarded).

I'll give you another example of "love" from the program "The Immigrants". The Mexican family. The father worked for 14 years to get his family into the States. They were settled nicely, the father working at a reasonably good job, the oldest daughter enrolled at a high school (even though she was 18). But the mother was unhappy. Really unhappy. She missed her family. She had no friends. So the family moved to California (to the town where some of the family lived), the father taking stoop labor, field work, the oldest daughter, too, since she wasn't allowed to go to high school there (because of her age). Now the mother is happy, but the whole family is now exposed to dangerous chemicals, stoop labor, and wage exploitation. All because of love.

Howzat

I noticed that also - and it made me more aware of how many of us made major moves in this nation, leaving friends and family behind in order to satisfy the company who decided to set up a new location - there was all the promise of more money but I noticed that those families who did not make the move and at the time were considered "not" very supportive of the husband who the move was usually centered around as well as not supportive of the company and therefore shooting themselves in the foot when it came to promotions and future pay increases - well those who stayed because they did not start in all over and stayed in the same house ended up doing as well or better than those who moved -

But back to the Mexican family - it takes great sacrifice to have things better and I got the impression she thought he had been fooling around with the old landlady and she decided it was her time to feel good in her life - she sacrificed all those 14 years without him and then suspects he wasn't faithful - I think she decided enough sacrifice was enough - the problem is if you want better for your kids all there is - is sacrifice - which is the same loneliness that the women in this nation experienced back in the 50s 60s on up through the 80s when families were being re-located away from their home areas - they are still re-locating but it is choice now based on job rather than being told if you want your job you have to move 1000 miles away - any immigrant family can tell you about loneliness and the sacrifice of feeling like an alien...we are all from an immigrant family and I saw the sacrifice in the generations before me with the expectation that I would also sacrifice so my kids could even have more of the American dream which was built around education, a job and land/home ownership.

Your stories reminded me of mine.

 
 My husband was a pilot in the Air Force 
 a senior officer and was offered a move  
to Washington State. For the first time I said NO   
Our children were in High School,  
with good friends etc and I told him  
it was time for him to retire.  
I wrote a poem to him that ended ...with this verse. 
 
This children have grown past  
The marks we made on the walls  
Another turn and they'll be gone  
Leaving empty halls. 
Do you suppose as they grow old  
They wiil feel a secret pain ? 
For want of time when they were young  
To share with you a summer;s rain? 

He gave up a lot to retire but gained  
so much more.  
And I can say truthfully  
he never regretted it .. 
because his children loved him and  
 was there for him and more important 
 he was there for them. 
 For the first time they had a full time dad. 
.and while they loved me they adored him.  
Sometimes you have to think what  
is best for someone else instead  
of what might be best for you. 
Just thought I would share that .. 
guess it isnt really about diversity ..anna<pre. 
Had to edit this three times and use poetry  
to get it in ..

Anna, what a smart lady you are !!

Local rag this am had a short blurb about Soledad O'Brien, sharing her personal diversity. Her parents are Irish, Black, Hispanic. She's been named one of America's 100 top Irish, plus she's a member of the Natl Assoc of Black Journalists AND the Natl Assoc of Hispanic Journalists.

How's that for diversity.

NOW THAT IS DIVERSITY >>>>and I like her as well...anna

since I had no idea who you were talking about I had to look her up - quite a women - she even has a fan club who have a web site in her name Soledad

Barbara, The other day I was talking about how Montreal was a safe place for all ethnic groups and the very same day a bomb exploded in a Jewish Talmud School nearby, nobody was hurt, but I was so sorry that it happened right here on my doorstep. There is no escaping hate is there?

Eloïse

oh Eloïse - I'm sorry - I keep wondering if it is hate or ignorance - or simply a way to express power over another - and then the whole question why do we feel we need power over another.

I will miss this discussion while I am in NC but want to tell you it has inspired me to do a book or a doll about my oldest daughter ..my grandchildren;s aunt ..and my own hearing problem for winter when I can corral my grands and read it to them. I can tell them all the places we lived in all the different kind of people we knew and loved..You all have great week while I am away ...anna

I have a son who converted to Catholicism before he married an Italian-American woman. Their four year old daughter is being raised Catholic, and their new little baby boy will soon be christened in the Catholic Church.

My other son married a Jew. His wife's grandfather was a rabbi. Their son is being raised Jewish.

P.S. I am an agnostic with a strong interest in world religions.

Mal

Just coming to America to live is a big culture shock...even if you think you speak the language..you don't...even if you know how to raise your children, someone will tell you...you don't...If you have a homelife that's different or speak a second language and raise your children "dual language" someone will tell you.. you're wrong.. It takes a while to realise that you can still live in America and keep your own "kultura" . It won't hurt anyone and your children will thank you for it later on. That's just what we did. My 4 children got their start on their careers in the ethnic community, through writing competitions,the stage and social work. My volunteer work evolved through the ethnic community who enabled me to go to College. Colkot

A friend sent this to me. Francy

Uncommon Courtesy

A wonderful story comes from 19th Century England. According to the account, Queen Victoria was once at a diplomatic reception in London. The guest of honor was an African chieftain. All went well during the meal until, at the end, finger bowls were served. The guest of honor had never seen a British finger bowl, and no one had thought to brief him beforehand about its purpose. So he took the bowl in his two hands, lifted it to his mouth, and drank its contents down!

For an instant there was breathless silence among the British privileged guests, and then they began to whisper to one another. All that stopped, however, when Queen Victoria silently took her finger bowl in her two hands, lifted it, and drank its contents! A moment later, 500 surprised British ladies and gentlemen simultaneously drank the contents of their own finger bowls.

It was the queen's uncommon courtesy that guarded her guest from certain embarrassment.

"Knowledge, ability, experience are of little avail in reaching high success if courtesy be lacking," says George D. Powers. "Courtesy is the one passport that will be accepted without question in every land, in every office, in every home, in every heart in the world. For nothing commends itself so well as kindness; and courtesy is kindness."

This reading is found in Steve Goodier's popular book A LIFE THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE 60-second readings that truly matter

Colkot, I think we'd all be interested to hear more about where you came from, and your and your children's work in the ethnic community. Please tell us more about your "kultura."

We moved to Puerto Rico for 10 years when I was 6 months pregnant with our 3rd child. Puerto Ricans are US citizens, but the oficial language is Spanish, and there are many subtle differences. One is less emphasis on time. We were invited to dinner at 7 and showed up at the hour. We were the first ones there and other guests trickled in over a period of hours. We ate dinner about 10 pm. From then on we always checked to see if an invitation would be Puerto Rican or US time. When it got closer to my delivery time, people would say, "your husband's going to stay with you in the hospital isn't he? You have to have someone stay with you in the hospital." That was the custom there, but was not on my husband's agenda. He didn't and everything went well anyway.

Well did I ever have an interesting discussion with my grandson yesterday - I was telling him about this site and asked him if he had something about himself that was different that at times had made him feel embarrassed - well it turns out that where he assured me that it is not an issue for him now there was a time when his height was a big issue - he is very short compared to most young man in his class - he is 14 - and two or three years ago when his friends where growing overnight he didn't feel good about that -

I never went into making a story about it but what a terrific story that could be - how a boy who is concerned because he is short feels on the first day of going to a new school - or into Jr. High - although these dolls are ment for younger children - but I bet with my grandson's help we could together figure out a scenario for this young boy

When it comes down to it his feelings about his height are probably going to be similar to the feelings anyone has with anything that makes them feel different - hmmm our grandchildren may be out best source of information to learn the struggles children have when they feel bad about themselves or special but not necessarily acceptable.

Well I hope you Easter weekend was lovely - we had very cold and very wet weather - within an hour on Saturday it went from 86 to 52 and yesterday it never got above 49 in College Station - brrrrr and here I had packed away all my winter jogging clothes.

colkot tell us more - what was it like to be new to America - do you have neigbors or family from your original country who you celebrate the holidays with - or are you pretty much on your own here. Do you go back often to the country of your birth?

Francylou What a great story - no wonder you saved it - and the book you recommend "A LIFE THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE" - it is on my list - the title alone is intrigueing. I like that idea - that no matter our age we still make a difference if we want to engage in life...

pedln 20 years in Puerto Rico - how fabulous - why were you living there - was it because of a job - I bet you know your spanish pretty well - did you go swimming often or did you not live that close to a beach - did you live in town or in the country - oh fill us in - this sounds so exotic.

Our new topic beginning today is Why Women Hide Money...

welcome to a new segment of Curious Minds.

This discussion will open for posting soon.

Hello Curious Minders. Nobody ever talks openly about a woman who hides money but if we say “I know a women who hides money….” And we don’t mention her name we can have a conversation about it that could be surprising.

The reason why a woman hides money depends on thousands of things. Some situations can be dramatic, some funny and some reasonable. We have not walked in other people’s shoes and would not have the same reasons for doing it. When women hide money can it be for a good reason? Or is it always wrong? What about hiding money from a spouse? Is that wrong?

When I mentioned this to a woman I have known for a long time she told me where she hides money, and from whom she hides it. She hides it from herself, because the temptation to spend it is too great if it is just there in her purse, so she hides it in one of her seven dictionaries. She has 7 grandchildren and if she wants to send each one a $50 bill on their birthday, she puts one in the letter K, another in the letter A and so on and so forth.

These are legitimate concerns that can be debated in this forum as money is one of the most important elements that govern our lives.

Eloïse

Eloise: Yes, I think a lot of women have money "tucked" away. I'm not sure what is meant by "hidden"...but it kinds of sound like that's bad, and I don't think so.

Many older women and men remember the depression and losing all their money/life savings from so-called "trusted" banks. They closed and their money was gone!! So, quite a few keep varying sums of money hidden about the house...in case of an emergency, or in case they can't get to the bank, etc. Some folks don't live in areas where there are banks...or even ATMs now convenient, and it's handy to have some cash "on hand" but not in one's purse/pocket. I always keep some money hidden in my wallet...for emergencies...ie, if here in the rural area your car goes off the road and you have to have a farmer pull you out, you'd want to have a $10 or $20 to give them for helping you out.

There's also the situation where the ATM doesn't work and so you'd be out of luck if totally out of money...or the credit card isn't taken by the local grocery, etc.

And, then, I'm sure, there are women who are married who feel the need for the security of money put aside...because their husbands try to control it all, or keep them from having some money or whatever.

A great topic!!

jane

Storing up "X" against future need is done all over the world, and not only by women. But, women of past generations always had a "stash" of paper money to get them through emergencies of whatever sort. Stored in a can in the kitchen, in a bureau drawer, in their brassier, or the top of their stocking, women of a certain age could always be counted on to have "extra funds".

Howzat

Jane, how good to see you. What I had in mind was money stashed away that nobody else knows about.

Howzat, welcome and thank you for coming in. Is hidden money in a bureau drawer really secret? Please tell us more about "women of a certain age". Perhaps today with ATM cards things are different, but what about women of a certain age who never reveal to their family how much money they have stacked away? Why?

Eloïse

Eloise: My sister did income taxes for a number of years and she was amazed at the number of married women...usually 2nd, 3rd + marriages that would come in to have their income taxes done...and wanted them filed separately from their husbands because they didn't want their current husband to know how much money they had.

I've had friends who each maintained their own separate financial accounts...down to checking accounts. Each paid 1/2 of the bills, etc., but neither knew what the other one had...or how much they earned. We never did things that way, so it seemed odd to me, but it appears to work for them.

I remember them discussing the driveway they were going to have redone and how much each one's "share" would be.

My grandmother, who would have been about 130 if she were living, always had a little 'coin purse' in the top drawer of the buffet in her kitchen. She had money in there...and she'd laughingly always turn her back to grandpa when she went into it to get some money to give us grandkids to get a popsickle, or whatever. Grandpa would act as if he were trying to peer over her shoulder to see how much was there. It was really funny...since all Grandma's money had to come from Grandpa. She had nothing separate.

I think, though, it was the sense that the money was there for her to spend, IF she wanted to.

jane

"When Heidi Evans's ninety-one-year-old aunt died, her sons were dumbstruck to discover a bankbook with a balance of $50,000 hidden in her top drawer. She had been a devoted housewife and mother all of her adult life -- so where had the money come from? But the women in the family just smiled. They knew. Like generations of women, Aunt Lee had been building a nest egg, stashing away a few dollars a week from her household allowance (and maybe sometimes from Uncle Irving's pockets) so that she could have a little money of her very own -- for a rainy day, for her kids, or just to pay for her dreams.

HEIDI EVANS

Heidi didn't even spend the money on herself, do you think that she should have spent it while she was alive? Why do you think so?

Eloïse

I think Heidi did just fine and hurrah for her. She would have spent it if she'd wanted to. I think for many women, the security of knowing it's there is the important thing.

A friend went to visit his very elderly aunt. She had taught first grade forever and had never married. She'd lived in a small apt. and walked to school every day. When he was visiting her, she said there were some things she wanted him to know...and proceeded to pull out 5 or 6 different bank books. My friend exclaimed, "Aunt Stella...why on earth do you have your savings in so many different banks?" She looked at him and shook her head at his ignorance...and her reply... "Why, Bill, don't you know that the FDIC only insures individual bank accounts to $100,000.00? " My friend gulped and replied, "Oh."

Looks can be very deceiving regarding what people have financially.

jane

I have been trying to figure out how I have money hidden. I realized that I have a box with coins that I saved for a while just as a way of saving. I don't save coins any more and haven't for a few years. I just counted it and it is less than $13.00. Maybe I should take it out of "hiding" since I had forgotten it until now.

Interesting article, Eloise. It backed up what I was thnking as I read these posts -- the only way you could truly hide money would be in cash "under the mattress," because anythng in bank accounts, etc. would be difficult to hide. I'm a poor one to comment on hiding money from spouses because I've been single for 30 years. I used to keep some cash on hand in the era before ATM's, but now carry little cash with me and little in the house, using credit card or checks for just about every transaction.

Several years ago, in the town where I grew up, some company executive, giving a public talk to some organization, mentioned the yearly bonuses that his manufacturing company gave to all employees. This caused quite a stir because many of the employees, primarily men, had never told their spouses about the bonuses.

Jane, I agree with you about the security of just knowing the money is there if you need it -- like Heidi's aunt. Or Grandma's money that she could use as she pleased.

Do you remember the play "Mama's bank account" which evolved into a weekly TV show? Each week the children in a Norweigian immigrant family would tell Mama what they needed for the coming week -- a penney for a notebook, special collection at school, etc. Mama would add it all up and say, "We don't have to go to the bank." At the end, there was no bank account, but the children grew up with the security of thinking they would never be without, because of Mama's bank account.

What a fascinating issue, and topic and what issues it raises!

I know people, I guess because of their Depression experiences, who bury money, paper money in the yard. Did you know if you bury money, you have to dig it up from time to time and IRON it? If you don't it molds (nothing gold can stay) and soon rots away!

Didn't women used to carry "mad money," or what does that mean, on a date? That way if something happened you could always get home?

But when you're married, that's another issue? Then do you tell your spouse every cent you have stashed for whatever reason? Interesting on Heidi and that large sum of money, I don't have that much discipline but to me the most fascinating issue is: is it....somehow lying or cheating unless you tell your spouse, whether you're a man or woman, that you have a little nest egg and where it is?

Would we think differently if it were the MAN who was hoarding money somewhere?

I have to say the way the stock market went last year I wish I HAD hidden or kept that money somewhere else besides stocks, I'm not going to win a prize in Jane's Stock Picking Contest.

Is there something that makes a person feel secure if they have a little money put aside?

In the case of a married couple, how many do you realistically think may have secrets about money, and do you consider it a betrayal if they do?

Fascinating and timely subject, EVERYBODY'S talking about this now, I see it everywhere.

But I'm not sure what I really think, am looking forward to what you all say here!

I'd like to hear from some men also as to what they would think if they found their wife had been hiding money from them: would they be proud of her thrift or feel betrayed, and vice versa, suppose a wife finds her husband has hidden a small stash, should he feel guilty and should he feel angry or??

Love this topic!

The problem with my mind is, if I DID hide it, I would never remember where I put it, so it would truly be hidden! hahahaah

Oh Pedln I loved "I Remember Mama."

I never thought that I would be telling this story but-- I swear to you it is true! My mother hid money for as many years as I can remember and she was none too generous with any of it. You were not allowed to question her or ask her why she hid her money where she did because she would become angry.

She hid folded 20 dollar bills in her loose powder container on her dressar and the powder puff would be placed over the top of it, to conceal it. She hid money in books, boxes, in her closet, her drawers and the best was when she died we found seven 100 dollar bills at the bottom of a cereal box. NOW, I really wish someone would tell me why women hide money, I've never been able to figure her out. God only knows how much money was thrown away, lost or misplaced over the years. True, she was a poor woman, helped support her mother, etc., survived the depression but good grief in a cereal box!!

I used to hide money from my ex-husband so he wouldn't drink it up or gamble it away. That I understand! Now I am careless with money and if I leave money laying around in the house or thrown loosely in my purse, my husband asks me if I'd like to go hide it.

The "depression mentality" accounts for a great deal of the things we find ourselves and friends and relatives doing and recalling. I put my change in small jampots so I can have it handy for laundry and other things, and also take it back to the store so it can be counted and "spent" occasionally. I do remember "I remember Mama" because it was very much like the conversations in my home as a teenager.. saving to buy things as they were needed, and gladness when we could just go and get what was needed instead of 'going to the bank' or putting it off once again. isak

Andy, $700 in the cereal box. I love it. And how nice for those who found it. And didn't people hide money in books, too, or is it only in novels where you find heirs fanning all the pages in the mansion library?

How many of you had a stash somewhere during the "Y2K crisis" at the turn of the millenium? I had a few bills in a drawer just in case the banks wouldn't work.

Do California people take care to have some cash put aside in case of earthquakes? Back in the early '90s, a guy by the name of Iben Browning predicted to the day that the New Madrid fault was going to shift and we were all told to prepare accordingly, including having ready cash in an accessible location. I still have a couple $20 bills in the trunk of my car. (My daughter still introduces as --"this is my mother from Cape Girardeau, you know, the town that shut down for an earthquake that was supposed to come.)

Maybe it's not a bad idea to have a little stash somewhere. Just for the unexpected. Wasn't it in Margaret Atwood's Handmaid Tale that all women's bank accounts were frozen?

ELOÏSE, here I am, as promised.

There can be no doubt that women who hide money, for whatever reason and from whomever, feel more secure; but can I find fault with that? I have no personal experience to cite, you see; the idea simply never occurred to me.

For one thing, I've been straight-forward all my life, perhaps candid to a fault, and my late husband said more than once (not entirely disapprovingly), "You're too honest!". For another thing, we came to this country as immigrants, we were a unit that had to pull together; there was no room or reason for secrets.

Obviously quite a few women feel, and have long felt, the need to squirrel away some money for themselves, either their own- perhaps from an independent source, or, if married, their husband's, perhaps part of the household expenses. Some keep it a total secret, as opposed to an open secret, as mentioned in a precious post. Some seemed impecunious and led drab lives, then left an unexpected legacy to the surprise of family or friends.

Who knows what made them do that? Should they have used it for themselves? Only they can answer, and I'd like to think they were happy with the decision they made.

Regarding "consent": I believe there can be no secret where there is consent; the two are mutually exclusive IMHO.

Regarding "stealing", one would have to look carefully at the prevailing circumstances.

When I run errands I take only what money I need, but I take comfort in always carrying an extra bill as "iron reserve", as my mother used to call it.

When my mother died and I was getting the house ready to be sold I thought I'd found all of her hiding places...some she told me but I guess she forgot too as she was too ill to think about it. I had invited my aunt (mom's sister) and uncle to go thru some items to see if there was anything they would like to have. My aunt saw a leather purse and liked it so I gave it to her. We didn't think to open it....well you guessed it. Later after they got home I got a phone call telling me there was a credit card and 20 brand new $100 bills in the purse. I told my aunt and uncle "finders keepers" ....I told them since they were being so honest with me it was their's now. Afterall they didn't have to tell me about it.
Emma

My first wife of 30 years had what she called her "Stash". She told me about it, but never how much or where she hid it. She enjoyed being able to surprise me and other family members with gifts and impromtu trips. She was never really on a budget and had access to our checking savings etc.and was quite astute in handling money. She worked in the early years of our marriage and then as my income increased, became a stay at home mom. She died suddenly in 1988 and I was single for four years before remarrying. I had forgot all about her "stash" untill one day, two years after she had died, I was looking through some books on our bookshelve. I picked up "The Rubaiyat" by Omar Kayyam. In the middle of the book was $2,600 and a note. The note said "Lon---I knew you would find my stash at some point---please tell me and put the money back. If I am not around---have a fun vacation. All my love----your Mary.She was quite a lady.

My grandparents operated separate bank accounts and went shares in all the household expenses. My grandmother had worked for years and they apparently had always done their finances this way. I can remember when I was a young hard up mum with toddlers each of them sneaking me money and telling me not to tell the other. It was really hard for me I had to take two lots of money or betray their confidence. If I visited they would always want to give me some cash "to buy something for the children" They were very secretive about their finances with each other and I never knew why as they were happily married for 46 yrs before my grandfather died. I know they kept their money for day to day expenses in marked jars at the back of the pantry. I think it was a result of living through the depression.

After my husband died I found a stash of notes at the back of his sock drawer. I think he kept it for birthday presents etc so he could surprise us. It came in handy!

Carolyn

Shall we find out more about secret money? I hope so.

Jane -- I heard about something like that yesterday. This couple has everything separate. Don’t you think that can go too far. They both have good jobs but the hick is now she wants a baby, but he says he can’t afford it and if she wants a baby she will have to PAY for it. How about that? Their agreement was if one wants ‘something’ she/he pays even if they both enjoy it. This is a new phenomenon for me. But separate accounts for everything even a baby? That is sick!!!!

Marjorie You made me laugh, no $13.00 doesn’t count as secret money. More like a piggy bank stash. Hahahah But it is a start.

Ginny -- That is the $64 question. If you “take” money from your spouse without his knowledge, is it ‘stealing’? Some will argue: “He doesn’t even give me a dime for clothes, I wear only hand-me-downs, I don’t have anything for my personal needs like beauty products, hair dresser, restaurant with the girls etc. and it is surprising because those men if they have a good income and their wives are not working while the children are small. I don’t know if it is stealing, perhaps someone would know. But it IS the same thing for a man to hoard money without his wife’s consent.

Is it betrayal? You tell me.

Alf That is so funny, sometimes you do have to ‘take’ money away from a man if it is burning his pocket. My sister told me this joke: “Mom, I burnt my pants” “Oh! How did you do that?” “Well mother, the money in my pocket was too hot and it made a hole in my pants”

Alf? in cereal boxes, Oh! I am learning new tricks, but don’t count on me to remember that if I ever try it. I once ‘found’ a big bill in one of my winter coat pocket that I had put away for the summer and I was so happy to find it again next fall. But under the mattress? Well perhaps in dire straits. Hiding money in books is quite a common practice especially if the one you want to hide it from is not a bookie.

This is so much fun to hear about who hides money where and why they hide it. Men would enjoy this discussion and will start looking for their wife’s stash. A lot of secret money is going to come out if it’s cache after this. !!!!!

More of this is about men who never told their spouses about company bonuses. I wonder if their boss did this deliberately, do you think they did?

Traude Bonjour. I didn’t know you were a first generation immigrant. I guess the war must have given you special values and in America’s comfort we have a hard time visualizing the impact the war had on those who went through it. Staying united as a family is primordial and it would be the last thing you want break up. But if a woman ‘steals money’ the circumstances would have to be extreme because she would be aware of the consequences if it was ever found out.

Carolyn-- Was that ‘secret’ money or did your grandfather and grandmother know about each other’s bank account? If they knew, it would make life easier for your grandmother. If a woman wants to hide money, it has to be for serious reasons, don’t you think? Even your husband hid some money did you say? Could it be a thrill for some people to have a secret from a spouse? I sort of like that idea don’t you?

Emmabarb -- Some money just fall off trees doesn’t it? “finders keepers” I only wish.

Cyclops How can you put $2,600 in a book? I guess you have to put in two ‘grands’ and 6 one hundred dollar bills. Personally, I never even saw a $1,000 bill in my life. Oh! Where have I been all those years? Yes, Mary was quite a lady and generous too. Lovely to hear that. I have to read “The Rubaiyat” some day, what is it about?

Eloïse

Oh, my...I do hope that young couple doesn't start a family with the baby's father thinking he "can't afford" to support the child that's not even here yet. Maybe I'm cynical, but there's a lot more issues there than "money" I suspect.

Cyclops: What a wonderful note to find two years after Mary was gone from your life. It had to have brought both smiles and tears.

jane

For years I stashed money and when vacation time came would pull out the money so we could really go somewhere, but it always was to one of the relatives. His folks or mine. About a year before time for us to retire my darling became ill so we retired early as I had figured out how much we generally spent and I had stashed back enough to live on for the year we could start drawing our retirement funds without penalty..Now I save out of our retirment enough to travel some.

The only time I ever tried to "hide" money was when my husband was in graduate school, and we and our baby boy were living on $200.00 a month. I opened up a savings account and put $5.00 in it, figuring nobody would miss that amount. When my husband found out, he was angry, so I closed the account.

Women aren't the only ones to hide money. I helped two elderly men (not at the same time). The first hid money in one of the books of his encyclopedia. The second hid money all over his house, often not remembering where he had put it.

Mal

One set of my grandparents hid secret money from each other according to stories my parents tell. The paternal grandparents were divorced after a short marriage and two children, and many money fights. She remarried and was working(RealEstate Broker) and had her own money which she squirrled away but lived on my stepgrandpa's income till they divorced. She worked till she was about Sixty when she moved into a mountain cabin she owed and opened a little cafe and bar in a near by resort town. She continued operating her business till she was in her 80's. She always took care of herself very well. Her attitude was what is his is mine and what is mine is mine.

The other maternal grandparents were married for 55 years before death parted them. They were open and aboveboard in all their dealings with each other and my mom. I think they were honest with all who they came in contact with. They also shared with my family as much as they could and more.

My mom said she did hid money from my dad as he was an alchoholic and she found it necessary to do this when she had the opprotunity to do it. Her first priority was to feed her six kids and if that meant hiding stuff and even lying to my my dad she would do it. They also were divorced.

In my married life I was the financial officer for our personal and our business finances. There was no question of hiding. Still my husband never knew how much money we had so if he wanted anything he came to me with the request and discussion etc. Together we would make decisions and we did not fight about money. faith

Well, to tell the truth I squrilled away money as my husband did drink for a time and the best way to curb his habit was to say we could not afford it and say I paid the bills and I did,,,but I also salted it away and then when we had an important reason to pull out the hidden money I did. We always had clothes and food and never owed more tha a person should and was out of debt before we retired. Now we pay cash for our purchases and save to pay our health insurance supplement each year. We owe no one and will remain this way long as we live. We will be married 53 years the 5th of May.

doesn't find this post, as I stash money all the time. There is no reason, just a habit from childhood. He has absolutely no idea of money, even though he earns it and never knows the state of our joint account. I could spend the lot without question, never would of course. This forum moved me to go count and since I have upwards of $5000 stashed, maybe I should bank it.The last time I spent some was to buy Jane's ticket home from England and I have no reason for that either as we could have afforded it and George would not mind or even question the spending.Golly,now I am asking myself what this all means. I dont think I feel insecure, who knows. lol

Anneo

Where I lived before, there was this elder man who lived alone at the end of our road. One day his house caught on fire and he was outside when he realized he had money hidden in a jar in the refrigerator and went back in to retrieve it. Well you probably already know what happened. He died of smoke inhalation going back for his money.

My mother-in-law used to keep money in a mayonnaise jar in the back of the refrigerator just like her mother did.
I learned my lesson the hard way....used to keep reserve cash in a fireproof lock-box (never locking it) and one day I went to get some and found I'd been robbed. The police said it had to be someone I knew because there was no forced entry to the house. It all boiled down to this one neighbor used to live across from me who would often come unannounced and/or early if we were going out to eat somewhere. There are some things she's said to make me suspicious of her.....like shortly after the money disappeared she said "well, I paid off all my credit card bills today". There are some other things that I won't go into here. Now there is no cash anywhere in this house....a hard lesson to learn....if I need any I get some back at the grocery store or use my credit/debit card. It's an inconvenience but better than not trusting people in your house or getting robbed.
Emma

MAL. Hi! There used to be so many men who wanted to control their wives, more then than now because now women work and they have more say in the family’s finances, but then we used to be totally dependent on our husband and to preserve the family’s integrity we were willing to make all kinds of concessions. Some women didn’t dare make their husband angry.There is more behind hiding money than to put it under the mattress where everybody knows where it is. A hard question is “Why do women hide money” (from their husband). Is it against the law? I don’t know.

When I was young married, I couldn’t hide what we didn’t have and what I got from my husband for food and clothing for the children there was none left over to hide. !!!!! They didn’t suffer from that either.

I know what SIX kids are, FAITH, I have six too and it takes a strong women to manage the household finances with a large family. Hahaha. It’s hard to compare with the new generation. Today families are small and a woman usually works. But all in all, she also has to pull in the rains when she has a man who can’t control himself. I often heard of women who insisted on buying a house early in their marriage and later managed much better than by renting.

Squirreled away money? ROSEDA it’s the first time I hear that expression. Wow, I love it, I can just see a squirrel with a coin in its mouth. No, no, seriously, it must have been hard on you but your husband knew you did this and he didn’t mind? I congratulate you on your 53 years of marriage, it is quite a feat these days and I envy that.

You know what? I too would have hidden money if I had to. When there is no other option what can you do? Not every man will relinquish the control of the budget to his wife, especially when his wife is practically chained to her responsibilities not able to work when the children are small. I know many who would never try something like hiding money from their husband, some because they don’t have to, he will let her manage their joint income because he knows she is better at it than he is.

You are so hilarious ANNA, I bet George reads this discussion but he might not dare post, he should tell us what he thinks of your little (big) secret. Anna, that $5,000 should be safer in a bank account, or in a safety deposit box no? Well you know what to do. Is George an Economist by any chance? I know some of them who don’t have a clue about handling small budgets and let their wives do it.

Boy some men are so lucky to have good women to take care of their finances.

I don’t know where the money is safest EMMABARB. If you put it in the bank, they can have a major computer foul up. Or something similar to Y2K. Imagine leaving money in a jar in the fridge? No thieves would think of going there. A woman I know sewed a small pocket in her winter coat’s lining in between that and the outer material. But,will she remember that when she needs it pronto? What do you think of women who squirrel away their partner’s money without his consent for the sole purpose of giving it to her grown children who have left home and can’t seem to get on their feet? Are always in debt or are driving expensive cars?

Eloïse

Oh, Anneo, bank it. It's not earning one red cent.

Having said that, since reading these posts and thinking about things that could happen, I think I'll start a "little" stash. One that could buy gas and food if banks and credit cards were not available.

Bless her heart had put away $2,000.00 in a CD in Canada before Mom and Dad got married. One day they needed some money so she went to Canada to draw it out and found out that dad had cashed it in. He promised her a fur cape one time but gambled and lost the $500.00 in a poker game so she told his uncle who went where he gambled it away and got it back for her, she bought her cape. When she went to work for the Studebaker company she had her wages put in war bonds straight from the company so in 1946 she paid cash for the farm that has been divided in lots and sold except for the house I now live in. I remember her puting money in a fruit jar and we buried it in the yard but we went to get it it was not there not sure why probably dad dug it up. One time he wanted to morgage the house that was in her name only and told her that he would divorce her if she did not morgage the house well she said go ahead, needless to say he did not do it (but she divorced him later in life even tho she loved him) due to his gambling and running around on her. She married two more times and they stole from her also so she divorced them. She loved my dad to the day he passed away. He was a big time gambler and cheated on her but she loved him any way.

My Dad made big money as he gold leafed Notre Dame, done all the steeples in these Catholic towns, but he died broke due to all the things he did. Mom was a very good poker player but just played nickle and dime with friends and family. I will never forget when we had a couple of friends over and they wanted to up the ante so she said how much and they told her and she won big time needless to say they never asked to play poker with her again, I did Not play with them just watched and was there if she needed me.
Ginger

As I said my husband and I did not fight about money but I remembered that I did hid money in the beginning. When we first got married I was 14 and he was 19. He brought his paycheck to me and said, Can you handle paying the bills and saving enough to pay for the Dr. and Hospital on this amount. I said Let me work it out and I made a budget and showed it to him and paying rent utilities and food (no car) no extra's and no clothing I could still not make it. So he went out and got a better job plus he wrote to his dad and said he couldnt go back to college till we had the baby and bills all paid and sent him our new budget. His dad then agreed to send us a set amount until the following summer. This was 1941. So my budget was envelopes marked rent- utilities- food-movie 1xwk-baby cloths and care- MD -and Hospital. By the time the baby came the MD was paid, we had her crib and clothing etc ready, and we had enough in the envelope(it was 125.00 for 10 day stay!!!) to pay the Hospital the night I entered to deliver.

So I said in a previous post that I never sqirrled away money but I remembered that I did because I wanted a new coat so I saved back 50 cents or so from the food money and I hid it every week. When I paid utilities if I ddnt spend as much as I had budgeted I put it in my coat money and it was all in a sugar bowl in the top of the china cupboard. Gingers story made me remember this stuff....I had about 12.00 in the hidden money and the coat was at Wards for 19.99 so I took my husband to see the coat and ask if he would care if I bought it and he said "Go ahead. If you can afford it do it." So I told him I had part of the money saved and how and where. Several days later he told me he was really sorry but he lost the coat money in the slotmachines (we lived in Reno) as he wanted to win it all for me so I could have the coat right away. We didn't fight but I was very hurt. Still it was the last time I did that, hid money I mean. The good thing was it was the last time my husband gambled too though we lived there awhile until he went in the service. faith

My paternal grandmother saved money from my grandfathers pay and bought rental houses..all of these she put in her name only. She was a stay at home mom with 13 children and I marvel at her ability to feed and care for those children and still save enough from her husband's pay to buy all these rental places. She did very well and when I knew her lived in a Victorian mansion with the horsehair sofa and beautiful furniture. I have no idea if she hid the money for the house purchases from my grandfather but she should have hid it from her youngest son. He lived with her until he was 50 and gambled away the money she gave him to pay the taxes...she lost all but two small cottages and had to leave her lovely home and moved in with us.

My own mother managed all the money in our family. My father gave her his paycheck twice a month and a certain amount went to a savings account..the rest was in Mother's purse. All bills were paid in cash first and what was left paid for food , doctor or dentist bills etc. My father had an allowance I think because he always stopped at the Irish pub on the corner when he was working a 7-3 shift for a beer and would play the "ponies" ..he often won and that was fun money ...for the whole family. He would also slip us an extra dollar to spend at the carnivals or movies ...they were thrifty but still none of us ever felt deprived. Of course christmas gifts were few but special and if one of us wanted something different there always seemed money to buy it ...I know my mother never had a checking account ..even after my father died..she kept all of her extra money in savings bonds in a safety deposit box divided equally between herself and one of the children or grandchildren as either or or..so when she died she left us all something...not a lot but still a modest amount ...she also kept money in cash in various places in the house ..which she told us about ..in the column of a floor lamp, in an envelope taped under her sewing machine, and in a piece of aluminum foil casually placed in a drawer in her kitchen and also her purse. Since she didnt have a checking account I guess it was as good as any. AND she also kept money in a small cotton bag pinned to her undergarments and when I started dating made sure I had at least ten dollars in one dollar bills pinned inside my bra. Until the debit cards and credit cards came into use I always used travelers checks when we traveled and kept 20 dollar bills in my bra in case we needed smaller amounts. My husband carried the same amount in his wallet.

When I married I handled all of our money , paid all the bills and expenses and we discussed each purchase and each had a small allowance ...of course we were in college then and both had part time jobs. Later when he was called to active duty via ROTC I still took care of all of the money,..it went directly into a checking account and he had an allowance. I kept a book with all or our bills listed and allowed money for each thing. Bills that were paid quarterly had an amount deducted each payday so when the bill came due there was money to pay it right away. One thing I did do was round out each entry in my checkbook to the next dollar amount. By the end of the year there was always enough for a special purchase or vacation. I am laughing for when my husband retired I asked him to take over paying the bills and doing income tax, something I always did...in six months my account books were so fouled up he asked me if I would mind taking care of everything again..so I did that and of course still do it. I do keep money in the house and always have for an emergency ..I always keep at least 20-25 in my purse in small bills..5's and 1's for tips and small purchases. None of the women in my family apparently hid money they just felt safe to use it as needed. Out checking account was a joint one with both of us having a check..each month I would deduct from our paychecks an amount thought to cover each of our expenses...my husband carried his checkbook with that amount entered and if he also collected per diem on his assignments he sent that to me. If he wanted to make a purchase when he was away he would ask me to credit his checkbook with that amount. We saved a certain amount, invested a certain amount and the rest was enjoyed after all the bills were paid. To me that was the only sensible and fair way...but I do know many of the squadron wives were on allowances and more than one had to take part time jobs when their husbands were away to make ends meet. One husband I know would write out checks to the mortgage co, electric co etc and sign them and she would fill in the proper amount and give him a list of the bills paid,,she had no access to the checking accounts ...and they were several I had to loan money to because they didnt have enough for food while our husbands were on assignments. It was always paid back promptly and several wives told me their husbands didnt approve of their friendship with me because my husband let me run too many things ...so I can see why it was necessary for these women to hide money ...anna

Having grown up with so many secrets I wanted my adult life to be up front and out there, especially with the man I married - it never occured to me to hide anything - problem - I did not realize how nieve an idea that was...

This is so interesting to share about this subject that we never usually talk about. Say what you will, the money a family has to manage is one of the hottest topic they can have and how you can manage to agree on where to spend it depends on how good the relationship is, I believe.

Pedln – If you haven’t started that, I think you’d better because you don’t know when that could come in handy.

Oh! Ginger, How touching is this post my dear. That is why it is good to talk about money when we don’t need to worry about it any more, (not much anyway) at this time in life when we have calmed down from our passionate youth!!!!!! It’s a good thing that your mother kept her head even if her heart stayed with her first husband. I think it was Ginny who said that buried money rots away unless you IRON it?

Today I was speaking to a couple about “Why women hide money” and the man became defensive. I told him about our discussion. He said emphatically, “Of course my wife and I don’t consider money to be a priority in our marriage” She immediately retorted, “Well, it is one of MY priorities” Just for the record, you see the different perception. If HE says it is not a high priority it is because he is a free spender and if she says it is a high priority, she is a careful spender. I know them.

Women of our generation did not work very much outside the home and had to rely on their husband for any cash we needed and sometimes we had to resort to squirreling money away for important items that the household needed even if the husband said they don't need it. Now the next generation, is in their 40s and 50s, they are a two income family and they usually share in the family’s needs by putting money in a joint bank account. The next generation after that, generation X, is perhaps the first generation to divide income and have their separate hank account. That is why women today don’t need to ‘hide’ money away any more but this is a “throw away society”, use it and throw it away.

Annafair -- You see, sometimes a woman has to hide money from her own son. Your grandmother was ruined because her son gambled it and she had to move in with you. Imagine lending money to your friends whose husband didn’t provide for their families, you were lucky that your husband didn’t mind.

When my husband died, my six kids were between 12 to 21 and I had to be very careful where the money went with them in high school and university. But I stood up to them and they rebelled as teenagers will, but today they pretty much live by the same standards they were brought up with. But then I was wondering if I was doing the right thing. I am sorry I never discussed that with them and I should have, they would have understood I am sure.

Eloïse

I am going out all day for three different things and tonight it is my sister's birthday. The one who does figure skating!!!! and at her age too. I told her I would try it and she said: "I forbid you, you are definitely not able to" I laughed because she knows I am zéro in sports. The tennis ball always passed Over my racket, the golf ball never went ahead, I never swam till I was 30, I don't know how to ride a bike. So there, you know all about me.

But there are many things I want to say yet about "Why Women Hide Money" Not all of them good about the reasons why a woman would want to hide money. Some of them are so cruel it gives me goose bumps. I only wish we could read some of the men's comments about women who hide money. That might give us the other side of the coin.

A woman I know emptied her husband's bank account, emptied their apartment of all their antique furniture by moving out one night when he was away. The poor man was shattered and never recovered because he didn't suspect it for one minute.

Eloïse

My grandmother hid money in her books in the living room bookcase. But it was only there to pay bills, like the insurance man would come to the door once a month to collect. I guess you wouldn't call that hiding money. She also bought savings bonds and hid them in a shoebox up on the closet shelf. I don't know if my grandfather knew about this or not. They were depression experienced so were careful with their money but never stingy!

When my mother unfortunately married an alchoholic, she began hiding money in drawer. She would put in HER stash the same amount that he spent on booz every week. I forget why she did this. Maybe to help support herself when they divorced or to pay for the divorce??? Who knows!

My daughter has always had a 'stash' but I just spend what's in my pocket and then charge the rest. I am not a good saver! Just a thrifty person when it comes to spending and paying my bills. Just boring!

we can assume all women are stashing money from their husbands, thats not my intention at least.I actually told George about my stash, only to find he has one of his own.We now intend to buy some shares with the money, and see how we go.

Eloise, I found the story about emptying the "husbands" bank account interesting. Unless it was a joint account that would hardly be possible.The question in the header about taking a spouses money also strikes me as odd, because implicitly that suggests each person owns things separately. Not the premise on which to base a healthy partnership, I think.

When George and I first married, we lived on the family station, a very isolated cattle and sheep property. We had a large store room, because we had to always stock at least 3 months food in case the Cooper flooded. Things we bought were always charged to our account. I was mortified to find most of these accounts had not recently been paid. I assumed that was because there was not enough money, and not wishing to embarass George, I payed all these bills with money I had saved whilst working. He had lived on his own for a number of years and the house was a mess, to put it mildly. I was amazed, to find as I cleared what could only be described as wreckage, to find money all over the house. It was in draws, cupboards, tins old shoes and even the refrigerator.There were unbanked cheques as well as coins and paper money. The local bank manager was delighted with the healthy deposits as George always operated an overdraft, and was notorious in Quilpie for late payment of accounts. Naturally enough I have handled our money ever since. I always make a tidy profit on washday from money abandoned in his pockets, in fact most of my stash came from that source. Happily George agrees I have earned it.

Anneo

The military always suggested the men have a power of attorney for the wives..( I would suppose time have changed) It was as a rule a limited power of attorney..giving the spouse access to his pay if he was captured or missing in action. They were limited to how much the wife could claim and the husband decided if that was what he wanted her to have. My husband gave me access to the maximum amount and also gave me unlimited power of attorney which meant I could sell the house etc without his signature or permission..I know we did have a couple of wives who sold the house and moved away while the husband was overseas...some of them even filed for divorce without the husbands knowledge and had papers served . The power of attorney was only valid for 5 years and once when it was time to execute a new one the legal officer told my husband he might consider changing mine to a limited power ..he reminded my husband I could sell the house etc but my husband said ( GOD BLESS HIM ) if Anna sells the house she would have good reason to do so..I want her to act as she feels is necessary if I am captured or missing in action...so yes I was lucky...there was a certain amount of their pay that went to thier own account if missing or captured and that was not accessible to any spouse...only if they were declared dead would a spouse recieve it ...

Frankly if I had been some of the women who had to borrow money for groceries I would have left those husbands...being in the military we knew how much everyone made ..so if they didnt leave the wife and children enough ..it was because they were either hoarding the money or spending it on drink , gambleing or some other things..anna

I find it interesting in some couples that as soon as the husband and wife start getting their separate social security checks...the wife is delightened. Never to have worked outside of the home, she now has her own money. Some couples have the checks put in joint accounts and some feel it's their right to do as they please and spend it.

Al and I have both of our checks going into the same account and we talk about each withdrawal and our stash amounts to a straw basket on the dresser and either of us can get a handful of change or bills as needed,,,but most stays in the bank where we are glad. One October while we were caring for my parents some young people vandelized our house and stole knives and beltbuckles from our house. Most were recovered, but we are glad we don`t keep much money here since our retirement. We all too often hear of old folks being robbed and even murdered if young people think they keep money in the homes. We make a point that we have to go to the bank to get money if we are going have to pay for something.

Anneo: I should have said a ‘joint bank account’, but I am under the impression that you mean that money is/should not be a problem in a relationship? Every time I speak to someone about that, mind you they are my age, they suddenly remember that when they were young wives, their husband did provide for food, but when it came for things like beauty parlors, outings, clothes, they were very often reticent about money and my sister yesterday said she had a “bas de laine” a word used for a stash coming from cash she always took away from grocery money for buying something special. One day she bought a special dress and her husband questioned her as he knew he had no intentions of buying her a dress, when she told him about her stash he didn’t mind. That is what I call a good relationship.

Anna, it’s the first time I hear of a Power of Attorney for military personnel. I guess it would be needed in that case, but what I see in this discussion are people who have been fortunate in their choice of partners, but that is not always the case.

I think that money in a permanent relationship should be thoroughly discussed before getting into it because all too often that becomes a major problem. I don’t remember ever talking about that with my husband to be. Couples get married with a blindfold because the attraction is very strong when we are young.

Then tell me, should women have secret money if she honestly feel that her husband is not giving her a reasonable amount for herself to spend as she wants?

Eloïse

Yes, I believe both partners in a marriage need to have a sum of money that they don't have to "account for" to somebody else. Money that's theirs...to buy what they want, to save up for something they want, whatever. This is money beyond the necessities of life in a family.

jane

Jane, yes I agree with that but in my generation men in Quebec believed that the man should/must/did control his wife's spending it was not especially a condition of equality, of love, of communication, but more of tradition. Most of my peers went through that in their marriage and when they started to work after the kids left, at first some husbands objected, some were happy, some even more controlling. It was a change in culture that many men saw as loosing their power. Women were not necessarily unhappy with that if their mate were fair and they gave their wives enough to satisfy them, it all depended on what kind of upbringing they all came from.

Quebec was backward in many areas, now boy oh! boy, you should see how the young women are liberated from any kind of domination. It is even scary.

In the newspaper today, bike gangs, or motorcycle clubs members hide money in their partner's bank accounts to avoid paying taxes. These women hide their partner's money not from their man, but from the law!!! How about that? These gangs are in drug dealing big time as Montreal is one of the worse city for drug dealing. It got worse since they opened up the casino.

I will talk about gambling money too.

Eloïse

Hiding money from taxes, laundering money from drugs, etc. is a whole different topic, I think. I don't agree with any of that kind of behavior.

jane

I used to stash money during my first marriage. If I didn't, there would have been no shoes, clothes, school supplies for the kids. After my divorce, I promised myself I'd never get into a situation like THAT again. So, now, my husband and I each contribute to out "common" expenses and I'll never let him or anybody else get control of my money. I spend it or save it or give it away or invest it as I please. He kind of squanders "his" money, and I think he's secretly hoping that I'll just let him tap into mine. No Way! I drive a little Ford Escort (all paid for) and he drives a Cadillac (owned mostly by the bank).

JUDYWOLFS, Hello hello. So nice to have your opinion on Why Women Hide Money. You learned your lesson with your first marriage and that is so "cool" (forgive me this teenager's buzz word.) That is exactly how a partnership should work and women have to learn to be more assertive but I know it is hard to do when the children are small. I love your way of putting it: "No Way! I drive a little Ford Escort (all paid for) and he drives a Cadillac (owned mostly by the bank)." Hahahaha

Since the Casino opened in Montreal a few years ago you would be surprised how many needy people go there to have what they call 'fun'. Gambling is an addiction like any other addiction but how much are they secretly taking from their Children's Government Allowances or their Social Security check?

It's the secret money that was stashed away for YEARS and years that is the big issue. I believe that when a decent women has to do that, of course then something is going wrong in the marriage, but because of the children as usual, she will hide money secretly and eventually it comes out to the delight of her husband who is quite happy to have a bonus he didn't expect.

Money is power and freedom of choice. I have a friend who won 4 million dollars 20 years ago. Before that, she had been married 24 years, she kept control of the money and she was conservative in her investments against her husband's advice who wanted to take more high risks with it. She still has it and it has not changed her one bit.

I would like to know if you think taking a bit of money from a spouse without his knowledge is stealing?

I love the posts here, you have such wonderful ideas. Thank you for your input. Eloïse

I simply don't see why if I am stashing money, it is seen that I am "taking" it from a spouse. Surely in a partnership one has equal rights to all earned money, whether I choose to buy a dress, have a flutter on the horses or simply donate to charity, do I need permission. Common courtesy would have me tell George if I have raided his wallet for some of our money, just as he would use when raiding my purse. Large purchases we always discuss, again not for permission but for wise input into need, value etc.

Why would anyone want to keep $4,00,000 dollars, given there is so much need in the world, and you can neither take it with you or send it on ahead. lol

Anneo

I think that all the pertinent issues about "Why Women Hide Money" are addressed in this link published in the WASHINGTON POST ARTICLE and Judith Mueller so well wrote about why women did that much more in our generation of seniors when our society was more male dominated than in today's generation. She talks about Pre Nuptial Agreements as normal instead of an exception. She talks about shaky marriages when hiding money is a necessity, not a crime.

She talks about abused women, she says that "happy husbands don't have affairs". Talks about face lifts, expensive items women indulge in. About husbands who hide money from their wives,

Ms Mueller insists that two people should spend a great deal of time getting to know one another before they become a couple. About where the budget is left to one to handle and the other trusts that he/she will do an adequate job of it.

And when nothings works, get a marriage counselor.

Read the article, it is extremely thorough and timely.

Eloïse

I was just laughing when I read this... because one of my daughters is in process of papering her in-law's bathroom. In the process, she took out the medicine cabinet to replace it with something nicer, as a gift for them. Lo and behold... there was a HUGE roll of money in the wall behind it... hundred-dollar bills. She didn't count it, but it had to be a lot because the roll was approximately 4" across. But it wasn't Oma's money... it was Opa's. What a dumb thing to do... the house might have burned and all that money would have been lost... or he might have died and no one the wiser. These people are Germans, so maybe it's something cultural... I have no idea.

A friend of mine who is Jewish told me that "a good Jewish wife always has a knipl." That's a phonetic spelling because I have no idea how it's spelled, but it means a nest egg or, in this case, a stash that the husband doesn't know about.

I knew a woman who got a certain amount each week from her husband for groceries.. and she always stayed way ahead of inflation and skimmed off the extra because her husband knew nothing about the cost of groceries. She was getting $75 a week in the early sixties! She was not lacking in funds because they paid the bills and budgeted for expenses, put away for their old age, and split the leftovers, which were considerable. Alcohol and drugs were her main expenditure. There was nothing left of hers when she died at 60, but he saved a great deal of his and ended up way beyond a millionaire.

zinnia -- a good friend of mine, a german, single-handed sailor doing a circumnavigation in his sailboat, ran up on a reef in new caledonia. on another boat, we heard his mayday as he broadcast it from the reef. he climbed off his boat and was rescued, intending to abandon his boat altogether. after a change in heart and after the damage proved the boat was still sailworthy, he called his family and asked them to hack out the gold hidden in the walls of his house in germany. in the mid eighties it cost him ten thousand dollars to be hauled off the reef by the new caledonian navy.

so maybe opa's hiding of money was and continues to be a cultural thing in germany.

When I was going thru my teens, my dad used to ask "Do you still have the $20.00 I gave you for an emergency"? It was he who taught me to always have $$$$'s stashed away, if I ended up in a situation, that was uncomfortable. I would have the $$$'s to leave the situation. Yes, that has effected the way I save money for a rainy day.

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Ginger

You have or had a Very Wise, Caring Dad who taught you well. Thank you for your input to this discussion.

Zinnia -- Welcome. We are happy to see you. I laughed at what you said of Opa’s stash. A ROLL of $100 BILLS 4” THICK!!! I am learning all the time. I guess Opa had lived through the war and had learned all the tricks that no North Americans would ever think of doing as we were living so far away from the horrors of WW11. I have heard some gruesome things from people who were living in Germany during WW11 and this Jewish woman I met managed to hide her race and actually worked in a Berlin office during the war and her parents had both been in concentration camps. The things you have to do to survive when you are pushed against a wall. ”a good Jewish wife always has a knipl”, yes.

Is it something that people like to do to have little/big secrets even from a beloved spouse? In good partnerships a man might no even mind that his wife likes to have her little secret.

Fairwinds – Bonjour vous. That hidden gold in his house in Germany sure came in handy didn’t it? Gold was perhaps the safest currency then. What about if his house had changed hands during that time? And what about the house going up in flames? It’s the same as Opa’s stash. If they have gone through the war, money was saver behind a wall than in the bank. During massive migrations, people just didn’t know how to be safe when they started to emigrate after hiding precious things in places they thought was the safest under the circumstances.

imabcgal -- Hi! Gal from British Columbia. Your email .ca told me that you are a fellow Canadian. I live in Montreal, so far away in Quebec. Spare money is always good for young people to keep as it is a hard world out there. Today more and more very young people have a cell phone. I think that is good, it makes parents feel that their offspring is safe even if they are not close by.

Hi! Ginger, So good to see you and than you for your welcome post, you are precious.

Eloise

I'm really enjoying all these tales about the opas and omas and hiding money in the walls. Yikes.

Eloise, that was a most timely article for this discussion. It's interesting to note that pre-nups are now become rather standard, and it does make sense, what with both spouses bringing finances to the marriage. And a superb suggestion from the woman who worked with abuse women -- keep a monetary stash with a trusted individual and also birth certificates, etc. The last caller really made a lot of sense having his, hers, and ours accounts, AND discussing each month who was going to pay for what.

Two of my children are married, my DIL a stay-at-home mom. This discussion now has me wondering how they handle finances, if they keep a stash. Both relationships seem very open to me. 'course I'd never ask. Another child is in a same sex relationship and they have bought a home together. I would guess that the same financial concerns would apply.

Pedln, This Curious Minds has really opened my mind about money. No way would I have talked about the hiding of it when I was young as we all kept our little secret. When I was a young married woman I had many many friends and that subject never crossed our lips. We were all 'pretending' we were all fine on that. I say pretending, because we had such a large family and we never had enough money.

Just think of the cultural differences for a minute. I had a friend whose mother handled all the money. She was Irish from Ireland, he was French Canadian and when they married about the 1920's they didn't know each other's language. Is that hilarious or what? The couple eventually spoke only English, she never learned French even if they lived in Quebec. Oh! well!

In the article written by Judith Mueller she mentions that her income dropped 200% after her divorce. In her case, she learned the hard way.

Money should be discussed regularly in a relationship not to hide hard feelings about who spends what, where. I suppose that when it comes out, it spills all wrong in anger and frustration because it was bottled up too long.

The stay-at-home moms are the ones who should not feel that all the money he earns is only his money to hand out for whatever he feels should go to. I hope that today's home mothers are more self-assuming than we were in our youth.

In the article a woman asked: "Why would you marry someone you don't trust?" That is the biggest question of all. Yes, yes, woman marry men because they are in LOVE and trust has nothing to do with it.

If a woman hides money, she is not a happy woman I say. Better start thinking about correcting that pronto or else down the road something will crack.

What children learn from their parent's behavior is crucial. Judith Mueller says: "Sometimes financial issues emerge as a part of marital imbalance" I think it is all there.

Why do two people choose the wrong mate I wonder? Is the mating process not competent? I think the mating process cannot be trusted. Is it a question of Chemistry? Does reason fly out the window when two people pair off?

What do you think?

Eloise, who knows why people marry the wrong mate. Probably because they were always in the "courting" stage and not in the "knowing" stage?

Someone said earlier they would like to hear some male comments. The two sites below lead to British publications, with plenty of male comments.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1923080.stm

http://www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/weblog/archive/2002_10_22_old.php#85589389

A male point of view of how women think ---

"Don't you love that? What's yours is mine, what's mine is mine. When we divorce, I will have what I have been stashing for myself, plus a percentage of whatever you earn for the rest of your working life and my stash from the new chump's cash. And women object to sexist stereotypes about sneaky and sly duplicity?"

I know a woman that when her husband passed he did not leave her any thing. Not part of his pension where she and her boy would have had medical insurance, Nothing. She has now passed on but it was Not easy even tho she work at Harding. He worked where I did so know he could have done all that by puting his signature on a piece of paper. Grrrr.

Gosh I love the comments and stories here, they are all fascinating and some of them should be published, they are amazing.

I've been thinking about the "hiding" part. The article is about women who hide money but I wonder....what it means to "hide" anything?

Are there other things people hide?

If so what? Have you ever hidden anything (besides presents at holidays)? And if so, I wonder if there's sort of a heirarchy or meaning in WHAT a person hides? For instance might one person hide food?

And IF a person hid food, you'd have to ask yourself why? For what reason?

And maybe another person hides something else and I'm wondering if we would tend to hide what is the most important to us??

Hiding is a fascinating topic, note the 10 Tip Offs in the article hahahaah The Tax Man knows! hahahaa

I have read that money, that is, who contols it, is the base of power in a marriage, do you think that's true? I wonder if there is something more going on than just wanting something private if large scale hiding of any kind is going on?

I'm tremensoudly enjoying your discussion!

who controls a marriage, see who controls the remote control for the Television and Video.

Anneo

Pedlin, your first link is so interesting and I wanted to print it but it is 20 pages, so I didn't. It explains exactly the reason why people hide money. Down deep, they hide something FROM somebody. This the crucial thing and I agree that it is a lack of trust. But without trust, there can be no relationship in my opinion.

Trusting is loving someone. Sometimes it is a lack of communication, but most of the time it is a matter of control. I would think that 80% of the time it occurs it is a woman hiding money from a man, perhaps more.

Then I would think that the questions of money is the clue to the kind of partnership we have. Some women are very happy with very little money, others not.

Ginny, you raise a very good question about hiding something other than money. I used to hide my writing when I was young because I didn't feel confident that it would be appreciated by anyone. I had very low self-esteem until not so long ago.

Ginger, How mean some people are. Imagine to deprive your own wife and child just for spite. Do you think that most people don't expect to die young But if it took only his signature, what kind of control would he want to have over them. It breaks my heart.

Ginny, so many times I hear of people who hide things. Hide chocolates from other members of the family, hide clothes. I was surprised at what I found after my husband died.

Do you believe that it is a compulsion to hide something? Yes, I think that we tend to hide what is the most important thing. If I was hiding my writing when I was young it was because I have my little secrets I am not about to reveal. Hahaha, No way!!!!!

Eloïse

Interesting questions, GINNY.

What other things do people hide? Alcoholics hide bottles of booze. ; )

I didn't hide money when I was married because I didn't have any to hide. My husband was of the old school type. He thought husbands were to provide for wives and that wives didn't need anything with which to provide for themselves. Shades of his father and the way he was raised.

I was married to a very critical man. There were some things I could do that he couldn't do, and he was especially critical of those. After being criticized in hurtful ways about my artwork and the writing I did, I began to hide them from him just to protect myself.

He, on the other hand, hid information from me. He'd spring it at the last minute that he was going on a business trip, and there were plenty of times when he had accepted a job transfer to a different state, and didn't announce it to me until just before it was time for the house to be sold. When I think back from this viewpoint I see a great deal of insecurity on his part, though my objecting to one of his many business trips or a move wouldn't have changed a darned thing.

Mal

Talk about hiding. I wonder if teenagers are the biggest hiders. I remember after the kids had all left home a man from the utility company came for one of those "helpful hints on how to conserve energy" tours. The "attic" was off one of the girls' rooms, and there among the rafters was a 6-pack of beer.

I would agree with Malryn -- booze is probably a big hidden item, as are most likely other abused substances.

I was a closet smoker for a while, after I supposedly quit. Never carried, only smoked at home alone. If anyone came to visit the house was well aired and the cigarettes well hidden.

Eloise De Pelteau, I have No answer to why he never signed the papers as she did not know why but was very hurt and I don’t blame her.

I love the posts here, we are finding many things we didn't know.

Is it unrealistic to think that if women are getting married later in life, it seems they should have learned by then that discussing issues with a future mate not only about money, but about everything else that will affect their relationship as a couple is crucial?

Is communication before a couple starts living together the same as after they decide to share the same roof?

When I got married, we only had discussed the fact that we both wanted children. Things have change dramatically in only two generations. I remember after my husband died, my teen age girls told me: "Do you want us to smoke in front of you or behind your back?" Hahahaha. I have to smile at those precious memories long ago. Today not one of my children smoke, but they did when there were younger and they knew I didn't like it.

What people won't do to avoid getting into an argument. If women will hide whatever will make her man angry is it because she is scared of his reaction?

When we had foster children one of the boys hid food and we would find it different places so we confonted him. We explained the food drew bugs, roaches mainly and ask if he didn`t get enough to eat... He broke down telling of how often he had not had enough to eat at his home and often was punished by not being fed and the family ate what should have been his. We told him never, ever would we deprive him of food and we always had 3 full meals in our home. We had him for over 5 years and he learned to trust.

Eloise De Pelteau - Judging by my own daughter's reaction to marriage.(30 something/no children/working female) She insisted they go to a pre-marriage counseling workshop in her church.
In a pre-marriage session (my daughter's was 2 sessions a week for a month) They have the couple discuss and work on assignments, involving a host of issues, that relate to building a strong marriage bond. She broke off her engagement, as she realized her future husband was not the one for her.

A year later, She has now met another christian fellow. Whom I think is a closer match. They both seem to enjoy similar sports and other similar interests.
So I think working women of today are more wiser in choosing a mate for life, than perhaps 30 years ago.......

Roseda, How good it was for that boy to have been with you. Imagine being starved in foster homes. Poor boy, but in the long run, he would have learned hard lessons about life, some people are worthy and some are not. Does it develop a better judgment I wonder. If he was loved and accepted in your house, then I guess he would be able to assess people. Hardship is not always something negative, it can be a good school.

Imabcgal, When I got married we used to have Pre-marriage counseling in our church too. Your daughter is smart not to have brushed off that opportunity thinking that after all at 30, she knew what she was doing. Good thing she found out before it was too late.

My youngest daughter married at 29 and she was engaged for a year before that to get to know her fiancée. They didn't live together during that time. They don't necessarily have the same ideas about money, but they are in sink about how to raise their children. I love watching their progress. They both had to change a lot of things in the 11 years they have been married and came to good compromise.

Eloïse

Thank you Curious Minders for your contribution to this forum on Why Women Hide Money. You all shared interesting things in your posts. Sometimes it was sad and sometimes it was funny but I loved it.

Stay tuned for our next topic on Curious Minds.

Eloïse

Oh heck and here I came in to say people hide other things too, like their true feelings, and their true reactions to things and they "pretend" but I'll let it go , such a good discussion, Eloise, thank you SO much!

I won't even touch hiding Easter Eggs!

hahahaah

Thanks for a great discussion, Eloise. You all have convinced me that having a little cash stash somewhere is not a bad idea.

Ginny, Pedln. It was a good one wasn't it? We could have talked about secrets at large Ginny, how fascinating it would have been, not just money, but even "Easter Eggs".

Pedlin, I don't know about you but to this day I have to have a stash. It is very reassuring having gone through the depression the hard way. Just that it is not a secret to my family.

Bye for now and thank you all. You are super duper participants.

Love, Eloïse

This discussion is now Read Only. The next Curious Minds will start May 16, and is on "Vision: What Would You Do Without It?"

Also don't miss Scientific American Frontiers "Future Car," our PBS Program Club selection for this month.

P.S. The PBS discussion is now open. Click the link above.

	Vision "What would we do without it" Have you vision loss or potential loss? What will you do? A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews. Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion. We have the five senses: Taste, Touch, Smell, Hearing and Sight. The loss of any one or more of these could pose a danger to our well being. Loss of Vision or even severe but not complete loss of Vision can be harmfull both physically and mentally. How would you or do you handle this? What changes has it, or you think it has made in your life and for those around you.? Click on the link(s) below and let's talk it over. Common Causes of Vision Loss in Elderly Patients Living with Vision Loss Eye/Vision Problems Discussion in Health Matters

Discussion Leader: Tiger Tom	Your suggestions are welcome
Books Main Page B&N Bookstore	First Post for Vision

Welcome,

To the Vision discussion. At a Senior's age vision problems increase and vision becomes very important as we seem to lose more of it as we grow older. Or at least some of us do.

Would love to hear how your sight is and what you are doing to keep it and improve it if you can.

Tiger Tom

I have often thought about this subject. I ask myself what I would do if my vision disappeared or became seriously impaired. I am a Clinical Psychologist holding down a full-time career five days a week meeting with patients and with the additional necessary documentation. Much of my life revolves around writing admission and progress notes and reading the latest research. I drive 20 minutes each day to my office from my home. What if I could not drive?
In addition to my work, I am an avid reader as my friends here on Senior Net know. I am a Discussion Leader for the Durant eleven-volume set of "The Story of Civilization." We are in the third volume and have been continuing this for almost 2 1/2 years. We have eight volumes to go. What if I can't read either the book or the screen any more?
I have come to the conclusion that I will deal with whatever life hands me in the best way I can. There is radio which I already prefer over TV. No longer seeing TV would not sadden me in the least. There are books on tape. There is the telephone. There is music which I dearly love. And above all, there are friends. I would make an effort not to lose contact with them. Just how I would do this, I am not yet quite certain, but be sure that through my other senses, I would make it a point to remain part of the active world.
My sight would be gone, but not I.

Robby

Glaucoma seems to run in families. My MIL had it for years and first discovered her problem in the '50s after reading an article in the Reader's Digest. She was given drops to use twice a day and early treatment certainly helped her. She did not lose her ability to read or watch TV until she was 92 in 1988. When she died she was still able to stay in her own home.

My husband also had Glaucoma and he used Trusopt eye drops for 30 years. His blindness in one eye was from Macular Degeneration, which never developed in the other eye.

Robby,

I guess that one could rise above going Blind but for me it would be hard. I too am an avid reader. I also love to look at the world around me.

I am losing my hearing so that sense probably would not do me much good if I were to lose my vision. That would leave taste, touch and smell. Not much help there other than touch.

Tiger Tom

Tom:-
One thing I didn't mention in my post -- I might consider getting a seeing-eye dog. I am probably too old to start learning Braille.

Robby

Patwest,

I too have Glaucoma and Macular Degeneration in addition to Cateracts and Diabetes. Not too good for the Home Team.

I am acutely aware of how fragile Vision is and how easily one could lose it.

I still see fairly well but my vision is getting blurry in both eyes.

I never have had any depth perception so every thing is flat as a board except when I wear glasses. First time I put on Glasses I was amazed to see Depth. Never knew what it was before. Did make driving an adventure until I learned to compensate.

Tiger Tom

Oh my, Tom, you are carrying a lot there. And seem to be handling it well.

I say that my eyes are my ears. I might hear you with my eyes closed, but if I don't look at you, I don't understand a word you say. Gave up the radio about a year ago, and use captioning for TV and DVDs. So I'm hearing with my eyes 90% of the time.

Several years ago my sister-in-law lost the vision in one eye overnight -- a retina problem. I don't remember the official name. But that incident, in part, led to my decision to retire from education at 63 -- to have time to smell the roses.

I've had cataracts and also YAG laser surgeries on both eyes. So, can certainly understand difficulties in seeing.

I've noticed lately that I turn away from the tv and listen with my one good ear, so probably need to set up another eye appt - must be something happening.

Ruth Ann

Because of cataracts I lost my drivers license for about 3 months then the Opthomologist got it renewed for me limited then after he removed the worst cataract I got it regular license back. when I had to depend on others plus old shanks mare to get anywhere. it made me think about losing sight to the extent my mother did and that was not pleasant to think of all the things I would have to do to keep living in my home.

We did lots of things to make my mothers loss of vision less limiting for her.

All the light bulbs in the house were of very high wattage. We put light bars up in the living room that were a total of 6 ft over each window. Her problem was macular degeneration so she could see something even to the end if she had good light but she could not read anymore. She could watch tv fairly comfortably since her hearing loss was mild. We also had safety net of close neighbors, a long time employed gardener who did many other chores for her, and a part time care person to come in to fix her meals and do personal chores. All in all she managed to stay cheerful and loved visits with any of the family. My main concern was her safety so I fixed her bathroom with too many safety bars and put a chair around the toilet with arm rests so she could hold on to sit and stand. She learned to get around with her walker and memorized her way. Of course she lived the same house 40 years so that helped.

We are not all so blessed to have lots of family to be in and out of our home all the time caring for us, that is true. My own children are not close enough to do that and I am wondering with out the proper income and other resources how a person does manage to stay out of a care home when losing sight in old age. I am facing a second cataract surgery with implant so unless something else pops up I will hopefully be ok. Still I will be very interested to hear other views of how to handle this very important loss. Faith

Faithr,

You raise a very important question: How are we going to cope without a support system around us?

My Daughter (only child) Lives in California and has her own family to care for. ALL of my other close relatives are older than I am They too will start having problems in future. So, if one or all of my eye problems catch up to me I have my wife but if anything happens to her? My retirement sure won't pay for much. All of the State facilities are full and many are being closed due to lack of funding.

Good question: What can we do and where can we turn.

Tiger Tom

VISION

I have just noticed this interesting discussion in progress and have some thoughts to post.

My vision problem is Myopia and always has been from childhood (maybe even birth) but wasn't recognized until a little into school years.

The so called "blackboards" were a pale shade of green in many cases, and some teachers would hold the chalk very lightly to write, producing little or no contrast. I always tried to choose the front seat, even if I didn't understand early on why I must.

I think one time in class I spoke out with the words "press on the chalk", so I am told. I don't recall punishment for insolence. In those days, of course, raising the hand was required and nothing said until requested by the Teacher. I think it was that particular Teacher who pinpointed the problem and had someone address it.

I used to do a lot of things in the dark (at home) because we were not allowed to touch the kerosene lamps, and there was no electricity. I still often do the same thing now, whether it is a form of "conditioning myself unto the day" or just plain habit.

Over the past year, I have lost the freedom of driving, due to mobility problems, however, do not miss it as much as I thought. I do not expect this to be permanent, though and there are always family and friends to assist with that, however, if one were not close to them, it would be a very big loss.

If I should lose all of my sight, I would depend a lot on technology, such as Voice Recognition for computer, for those who use that. A reader/typist in the family would assist, I'm sure, with other types of communication on computer. Then, as pointed out, there is telephone. I would "listen" to books, music and audio on TV. I think I would probably try to learn Braile.

One thing I think would be a great help would be a Microwave, provided one had raised symbols on each number, or some sort of system. With ready-made meals, one could heat something, without the danger of using a stove. Perhaps some special technology like on the phone "please press such and such for" on a Microwave could be (may be already) available. This may be unrealistic, though. One would have to be able to depend upon things left in the same place always, due to having to use their memory a lot. Of course, if we lost that, then it would be a whole other problem.

I would want a seeing eye dog and of course, the CNIB would no doubt have advice and help. I think one could and would adapt.

I have been prescribed bright red lenses and am told that is what I need. But, oh my, (they are horrid): make me look like Gangster Grandma!! LOL

Two things would be heartbreaking to me.

One would be the loss of ability to watch my Grandchildren grow and become adults and, if blessed to live long enough, to be able to see the newborn Greats, in time.

The second, also dear to me, has always been seeing the Ocean! How tragic it would be to lose that pleasure.

Prancer that reminded me what we did to my moms microwave and oven plus her tv remote and her washer and dryer. We obtained some fast drying plastic (?) stuff that we could make raised dots with out of the tube, and we marked her dials with different no. of spots so she could use these electronic devises. Her phone..well we came across a phone that had the numbers and letters on a two inch square each so the dial pad was very large however she could easily distinguish these large black letters and numbers against the white background.

We also got her into the local hospitals security for seniors program. They put a transmitter in the home. When she woke in the mornig she was to press a button on it and the dispatcher at the hospital answered and they checked out that she was up and ok. Then if she forgot they would call her by a certain time and if she didnt answer they sent out human to see what happened. She also had a thing to press if she fell or something and it dialed up on that transmitter so she could then just yell or if she couldnt at least they had a warning she was in trouble.

This system worked for awhile (this is 8 years ago) but my mom forgot her duty to check in so often that after a discussion with the hospital we hired a three hour person to come every morning and family took up the rest of the slack. . That system is much like you see offered by different security systems but I dont know what happened to the hospital bases program.

My mom managed but she had some sight. For totally blind and aged at the same time it would be very difficult, especially with out close family. I am planning to have a discussion with my children and a couple of loving neighbors about this type of disability occurring.

Faithr

That was so well done for your Mother for a long time. I really liked your interesting post.

I forgot to mention that I usually keep the remote for the garage door opener in the house, so that I can open it in case of emergency, (say falling) without having to get there and help would be able to get in. I'm sure this would also be an added advantage with non-sighted persons.

It would not be easy, in any case, with humans if we became totally blind. Very good idea about a discussion with the family. One never knows what the future holds and must leave no stone unturned while planning. We know that changes do happen to plans, but we have to keep trying.

Faithr, Prancer,

Planning is essential these days as we get older and things begin to wear out.

Family, it is helpful if there are younger members of family one could rely on. If all the family members are older it is a problem.

Tiger Tom

Tiger tom how well I understand your post. My kids are 62,58,and 53 and I am just 77 so when we are all together it is hard to tell that I am the mom(which annoys my oldest daughter.) But the point is they are also aging and when I think about it which is not to often except now in this discussion, they have had as much if not more physical difficulty as I ever have had.

Now that I am exercising and have lost some weight and my blood pressure is down I feel very well. No medicine. I take ibuprofen for joint pain and it is sufficient at this time. My sight will be improved when I get the next surgery. My younger sister is having her second cataract removed today in fact.

I remember when my kids were in highschool and I had turned just turned 32 and my kids began talking about how they would be old at the same time that I would be old. Therefore they thought we should all plan to live together again in our last years and be a Senior Family. We laughed then but now it is not so funny. faith

I have eye problems that seem to be floater type of things but have Not checked it out and have hearing problems so wear hearing aids but hey, it beats the other way (BG).

Ginger,

Losing hearing before sight can be a problem. Usually when one loses a sense the other senses become hightened. I haven't noticed my sight getting any better now that I am losing my hearing.

I guess when one loses hearing one becomes like a bat and relies on hearing to locate things. Generally by banging in to them and feeling and hearing the bang. Feel to go ouch and hearing to tell what one hit.

Tiger Tom

My husband used to have the best eyesight ever. He was like an eagle the way he could see huge distances clearly. Close up was pretty good, too.

Eventually he developed cataracts and had to have them removed. For reasons we cannot find an answer to, one eye was not successfully treated. What is strange is that he does fairly well on the eye tests but he complains that things are blurry.

Several doctors have concluded that he is a person who has always been unusually sensitive about his vision - one doctor said most pilots didn't have the sense of vision my husband does. Anything less than perfect seems like a flaw to him. This afternoon he had the YAG procedure (laser) to remove cloudiness developing behind the "good" eye. Right now it is tearing a lot but I just hope and pray that this procedure helps.

Now, MY vision has been crummy for as long as I can remember. Near-sighted like crazy. Without glasses I couldn't see much at a distance, although up close I could always read well and easily without glasses. But, I've never had good vision and I'm accustomed to having to squint to see at a distance. Even with glasses.

But, here is one thing. When I was a freshman in college I somehow got my hands on a book called "See Without Glasses" or something like that. By someone whose last name was Bates. In fact, I still occasionally hear the "Bates Method" referred to. I actually did the exercises he recommended, fairly faithfully, in fact. And they WORKED! The day came when I could recognize friends walking across the campus, without glasses, and I was thrilled. But, I guess things so often work out like this - I got lazy, thought I was "cured", stopped doing the exercises, and never resumed them. And, of course, have been dependent on my glasses ever since.

One thing I will say - poor as my vision has mostly been, I get enormous pleasure out of what I do see. I am often surprised that others don't get the huge happiness out of a flower, a sunset, a view, whatever that I do. It's almost as if I see differently, or more, than others. Whatever it is, I am forever grateful for the frequent joy that my eyes bring me.

Dianne,

Sight is certainly one gift we would miss if we didn't have it.

I too love seeing things that are beautiful. The more problems I have with my vision the more I appreciate it.

Tiger Tom

I agree. After each of the cataract surgeries and the two YAG laser touchups, it was truly breathtaking to see the colors, etc.

I really appreciate the amount of vision I still have. My primary impairment is really dark country roads at night. If a road is well lit, then I'm okay.

I'm enjoying this discussion.

Ruth Ann

Well, what an outstanding surprise - Del had his second YAG surgery yesterday. The one on his bad eye did not help and after the surgery yesterday, his eye was tearing pretty badly. I was pretty much geared for another failure but guess what - we went to a little Bible study group tonight and while singing out of the hymnal, Del nudged me said that he could SEE well enough to read the words!!! This is the first time in several years that we could share a hymnal again and it sure was nice!

A precious gift..at age 8 I was diagnosed with near sightedness and had to wear glasses. None of the pretty glasses were then avaiable so mine were round , gold rimmed and I hated them but wore them since my vision was so poor. Time passed and newer glasses were stylish and so I didnt mind too much..and of course then came contacts and I used those..It was so nice not to have glasses sliding down my nose etc..About 15 years ago I developed a rapid growing cataract, in 3 months time it went from blurry to zilch. It was like trying to see through heavy vaseline...so I had cataract surgery and since then I only wear sun glasses I dont need glasses at all. BUT and here is the interesting thing my right eye that had the surgery sees distance and my left eye is still near sighted and sees close. Now what kind of mind can handle that? LOL a wierd one I think.

My oldest daughter , my first edition as she calls herself, called me one day when she was about 35 telling me she was seeing an eye doctor because suddenly she seemed to be looking through scrim..in case anyone doesnt know that is the black stiff net like material used on stages ...I knew immediately this was serious and persauded her to see her doctor that day. The result was she was losing her vision due to be being exposed to histoplasmosis as a child. It is a fungus that occurs naturally in the soil and is prevalent where the soil is moist due to rivers and streams and is fed by bird droppings.

Eventually both of her eyes were involved and before she was 40 she lost all of her focus vision with only periphially vision remaining. She is now 53 and fortunately it hasnt become worse although the specialists worry she will lose more vision as she ages. I have to say it was a hard time for all of us. She was seen at John Hopkins and Ihad to drive her there often for help. She has adjusted as well as anyone could and has kept her sense of humor. She accuses me of passing on my warped sense of humor. Last year we were trying to locate a restaurant and I couldnt find it ...and kept telling her what does that sign say? Mom she said I am the one that cant see You are the one that cant hear.

With the help of state sponsored and paid for computer equipment and programs she has been writing newspaper columns for 7 years now, has served as president of the Woman's Club, runs all sorts of functions for them and her church..does a newsletter etc. I am so proud of her and grateful to a large group of neighbors and friends who live near her for seeing she is not isolated ( they live in a rural area on over an acre of land) She also hosts a writers group in her home monthly. Since she was working when she was stricken the state helps her and she is on the state commission for the disabled. No pay but she is picked up and returned to her home for the meetings and her expenses are paid for..

I just thuoght I would share our stories ..BTW when she was first stricken I called the center for disease in Atlanta and found out histoplasmosis can mimic any number of diseases including TB ...brain tumor etc and the only way you can detect it is with skin patch tests.

My hearing is nearly gone and I miss it but would miss my sight so much more...anna

Discussion,

Seems we have got off to a very slow start.

I was hoping more Seniors would relate what they know, have learned and what problems they have or are facing. I had thought that this subject would be of more importance to Seniors than it seems to be.

Tiger Tom

It might be that with the start/stop/start of Curious Minds, some people haven't noticed it's started up again.

Howzat

Also, Tom, there's a fairly active discussion under Healthy Matters called Eye/Vision Problems. Could be that things have already been pretty well hashed out over there.

bt I still read and I still drive in thre daytime. However, I nevert frget that someday in the not too distant future I won't do either, so I"m reading as fast as I can and looking into DIAL A RIDE and other possabilities for transportation. M daughter says I should get used to using taxies but she's in New York and I'm in C....different lifestyles when it comes to getting around. Also I paint, but I've always squinted to put things into a nice blur so I can see what kind of an image distance would provide, and my style is loose. . . . never did enjoy picky picky.

I've been using a painkiller for my arthritis that contains codeine and I've read recently that this can blur your vision and interfere with night driving. . . so now I"m trying to KICK my codeine habit, but havent found a good replacement for ARTHUR when he kicks me around the bed at night. I wonder why arthritis is always worse at night.

I expect to stay in one place for a long as possible and wonder around in the dark at night. In some way my rods are more efficient than my cones so I see better then even though night driving is harder. It must be those bright lights comeing toward me. I don't adjust fast enough. all of this takes adjustment. . . working on it. . .

. Oh yes. my hearing is fine when I'm not all stuffed up wih wax which is often.the "lavage" lady at my doctors hates to work with me because I have "narrow ear canals" but there's nothing wrong with them when the wax is removed, just her lousy disposititon in dealing with it. . . ..

Chromelux light bulbs cost almost ten bucks each, look just like any 100 watt bulb except they are violet and the light they shed makes print much darker and more contrasty on the page, much as sunlight does.. I can still read in sunlight if I squint and almost as well with these great bulbs. Costa Mesa has a store that handles them and I bought a doxen.jkGeneral Electric has somehing similar I haven't tried. They last for 4000 hours I think.

Now about typos. the print in the box for posting is very small and light so I don't bother often to fix em . . . just count on your patience and good will to figure out what I"m trying to say. . . . . ., Claire

Speaking of hearing and ears. I have noise all the time in my ears. It sounds like a thousand or so cicadas making their sound. Am I alone or is this just me??? I never think to ask the doctor as usually I have other problems that make this the least of my worries.

Roseda - it sounds like tinnitis, which can be a roaring, or buzzing sound. My husband has had it for years and says that at times it is louder than others. Doctors have offered no helpful advice. My hunch is that until something else comes along, a really good chiropractor would offer the most chance of helping.

If it keeps you awake at night, you can pick up a little radio-like device that plays what they call "white" noise - a continual sound of something soothing, like surf rolling in, or rain falling that will be enough to drown out the tinnitis yet offer pleasant background.

Good luck.

Rosea,

Among the many things I have wrong with me I have Tinnitus. My advice to you is learn to live with it. Doctors cannot stop it. Sometimes it goes away of it's own accord but most often one lives with it. You will learn after a while to simply ignore it. I live with it 24 hours a day, both ears. I ignore it, can sleep at night, and it doesn't cause any distress. Perhaps I am lucky.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom and Roseda - we're not sure what caused the tinnitis but the best we can figure is that my husband was exposed to loud artillery noise during WWII. He also was around loud power equipment later on and never really took the time to wear protective ear coverings. Probably too late now but I did get some industrial type ear protection for him for when he's around loud power tool sounds. Actually, he got rid of most of his "toys" when we moved so the need doesn't really come up any more.

Just thought of one more thing - back in the 70's he had one of the first MRI's in our area. Since he's claustrophic they allowed me to sit with him. For a good 45 minutes or so the sound was deafening - just awful. Not quite as bad for me as I was not within the device.

When it was over we both commented on how loud (and unexpected) the sound had been. The technician said, "Oh, didn't the ear plugs help?"

Our reply was "What ear plugs?"

She'd forgotten them and while I'm sure it was unintentional, I've never quite forgiven her, or the situation that allowed that to happen.

I've got it too. had it for years and mostly ignore it. on the other hand it keeps me company.

In truth I have had this many years and was told it was caused by my long time use of asprin for my arthritis untill I got bleeding ulser and when I stopped then I heard this noise and it has never stopped for even one minute. I like train noise and refinery noise as it drowns out the noise in my head/ears.

Rosea,

Try some Mozart, that will drown out the noise in a nice way.

Tiger Tom

someof it is madning in itself. I think my celtic stuff has been on long enough. . . I'd rather hear write noise.

On my last visit to the eye doctor, he informed me that I have Macular Degeneration in both eyes. Two years ago, I only had it in one eye. Unfortunately, there is no cure for this, but the Doctor recommended eating dark green vegetables and also taking Lutein tablets, which he said is supposed to slow it down. I don't have any good facts on this, only what he told me, so I'm taking the Lutein every day and trying to eat Collards, turnip greens, etc., a couple of times a week. I am an avid reader and don't relish the day that I can't see to read. As far as driving at night, I try not to do that as the headlight glares blind me. Of course, most of the causes of eye problems are connected to age, so I guess I'm to expect it, but it's not something I like. Whoever said these are The Golden Years sure did lie.!!!!

Marlene

My Al has begun to get talking books from the library, he has been such a reader and his catarak surgery was not as good as hoped. I may be his reader if he catches up with the supply at our local library. His love is westerns so I hope he can learn to enjoy a good mystery part of the time.

JimsGarbo,

I too have MD and one of the things my Doctor has me on is Bausch&Lomb Ocuvite Preser Vision Vitamin and Mineral Supplement. Four pills a day. I sure can tell when I miss taking them.

They seem to be doing some good.

Tiger Tom

Roseda,

I have received offers (in the not too distant past) from Audio Book Clubs. Believe that if you do a Google Search you can find some. Might look into joining one or more.

Tiger Tom

I still am a very good reader and my voice is still strong so people enjoy hearing me read to them. I have been a caregiver so many years, I am 72 and started helping old folk when a young girl, to give you an example of how long,LOL Reading to others give some of us a feeling that nothing else can do and specially if it is something you enjoy reading. I love all sorts of books and as a child loved best the dictionary and still had bad spelling, how about that. Have worn glasses most of my life, am far sighted with astignatizum. I see very good unless my glasses are missing, so they are always on my nose or close at hand.

Tiger Tom,

Are those pills you take Prescription or over the counter? And how much do they cost? At four a day, I am thinking it could turn out to be very expensive. And when you say that you can tell the difference when you don't take them, what is the difference you are experiencing or perhaps not experiencing? Would be interesting to hear from you on this.

I take my Lutein every day, and hope that it will do some good in slowing down the problem. Did your eye doctor tell you anything else that might slow down the MD problem?

Marlene

Roseda,

I think it's wonderful that you read to others, especially those that are not able to read. I dread the day that I can't see to read as I'm an avid reader. Years ago I used to buy blank tapes and get books from the library and record them so they could use them at the library for kids to listen to. I think if it comes to the point that I wont be able to see to read any more, I will get books on tape from the library and get my enjoyment that way. They sure do have lots of them nowadays.

Marlene

Roseda I think being able to read to others is one of the greatest gifts you can give.

Moreover reading aloud helps me. What with my dad having Alzheimers I worry I might lose my way also. There is alot of prayer that this does not happen to Al or me. Reading has always been fun and bringing the enjoyment to others boosts my ego too.

JimsGarbo,

Pills are over the counter. A tad more expensive than the other Ocuvite Vitamins.

When I don't take them my eyes are more tired and are irritated. When I take the Ocuvite my eyes feel better, rested and no irritation. Might be in my mind but it has happened the few times I forgot to take the pills at night. Must take all four in a day. Not too much trouble as I am taking a number of pills, including Beta Carotine, so many pills that I rattle when I walk.

No, Doctor only advised that I take the Ocuvite and the Beta Carotine. I guess there is not much one can do about MD other than not to put a lot of strain on the eyes. Wear Sunlasses when out side (this will help with Glaucoma too. I suppose there are other things one can try, I just don't know about them.

Tiger Tom

As you all know my husband has a fold in his macular. And I have bad vision on one eye... so am always looking for info.

This is from an article I was reading:

WA: What if I am having vision problems? Can vitamins help?

Laboranti: If you are having vision problems, vitamins can help. The antioxidant vitamins along with the carotenoids, lutein, zeaxanthin and beta-carotene, can help to protect eyes from further damage. If visual problems or impairment is present, an antioxidant regimen for eye health is most effective in the early stages. An AREDS study showed the following vitamins could reduce risk of AMD by 24%: Vitamin C should be at least 500 mg/day, vitamin E at least 400 I.U./day, beta-carotene 15 mg/day or 25,000 I.U./day, and zinc 80mg/day – although this is higher than the RDA Upper Limit for zinc, which is 40 mg for adults. I would recommend 30-40 mg/day zinc. Intake of carotenoids--such as lutein and zeaxanthin--is recommended to be between 2-4 mg/day.

FrancyLou,

Believe the Ocuvite Vitamins that my Doctor advised me to take has all of those except Beta Carotine which I take seperately.

I feel that these Vitamins are helping. At least my eyes feel better. I had been taking a Multiple Vitamin, a milder Ocuvite Vitamin, and 1000 Units of Vitamin E, daily. I have since cut down on the Vitamin E but continue to take the Multivitamin and the special Ocuvite Vitamins.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom and FrancyLou, I thank you so much for all the valuable information that you have both posted concerning Macular Degeneration. My eye doctor has not mentioned taking any kind of vitamins, just the Lutein, which is 10mg per capsule, once a day. Whenever I see the Lutein on sale, I've been buying them, like buy one, get one free. These are 20mg capsules though, but heck, I guess they are okay to take even though they may be a little stronger. I also feel like a rattling pill bottle Tiger Tom, as I have to take High Blood pressure, underactive Thyroid, Cholesterol medicine, calcium and now Lutein, so I'm right up there with you on the pills. I was told or read something about taking Vitamin E not being a good thing if you took High Blood pressure medicine, so I haven't been taking them. Wonder if there is anything to that. Guess I could ask the doctor next time I go for a visit. Tiger Tom,on those Ocuvite pills you take, you say you take four daily, but at night. Is this what the doctor advised, taking them at night? And what strength are they, since you mentioned there is a lower dose available? Also the Beta Carotine?

Francylou, you mentioned that your husband has a fold in his macular. Could you please explain that to me. You must have mentioned it in an earlier post and I missed reading it.

I do agree with you Tiger Tom about wearing some kind of shade when outdoors in the sun, as I've found it helps me if I wear some kind of hat. For some reason, I have a hard time wearing sun glasses, so I go for the hat instead.

Hope everyone has a good Holiday Weekend

Marlene

JimsGarbo,

Strength of Beta Carotine is 25,000 I.U. No strength value given for the Ocuvite Pills.

Have never heard anything about Vitamin E and Blood Pressure medication. I am taking Inderal for that. Been on Inderal since late 70's.

I can wear Sun Glasses, when I have them.

Tiger Tom

This is for anyone who is experiencing Macular Degeneratin.

A little background--I am 89 years old, housebound, confined to a wheelchair on those very rare occasions when I must leave the house. My eyes are my life. I use a webtv. For those of you who are unfamiliar with webtv it works like a computer in that one uses a keyboard but instead of getting the picture on a small computer screen one sees it on a regular tv screen, Since the thied grade I have worn glasses for myopia. About eight or nine years ago I had cataract surgery on both eyes. A year later laser surgery on my right eye. Ihave known for a long time that I would face macular degneratin and a year ago I lost the ability to see clearly with my left eye. Reading is impossible, of course. Print looks like hyroglyphics and faces like gorgoyles. Miraculously I still have vision in my right eye which permits me to read books, newspapers, magazines. watch tv and observe discussion groups that interest me but no longer contribute to.

My opthalmologist is a gifted dotor and a surgeon as well. After his diagnosis he sent me to a retinal specialist Who confirmed the diagnosis and opinion that the damage was irreversible and there is no treatment for it. He suggested that I see a doctor whom i dubbed the "Vision Wizard" be cause he can do some evtraordinally successful things for some.He could not help me But through him I found a wonderful lamp th helps me to see more clearly.

All three of the doctors told me of the three things I should do to help preserve my vision. One--take four Bausch and Loame OCUVITA daily-Two each morning and two at night. I take them with meals. Two-Eat dark leafy greens every, This is no hardship for me . I like grens and have eaten them all my life. Three-Have the best possible light for reading. This is extremely important.Imperfect eyes do require sun glasses out dors but need very good light- prefeably over ones left shoulder. For a year now I have assiduosly followed those directions And have experienced no worsening of my vision. Pretty remarkable whe you consider my age. Of course my ability to read is not perfect. On some days I am not able to read well and most links in discussion groups are in impossibly small print and maps are illegible.

This is too long, I know, but I want to importune you to take the vitamin, eat greens. and never read without really good light. These have helped me for a year now.

Best wishes, Hank Evans

As I understand it there is a fold in the Macular, but not a rip. I guess if there was a rip they would have to do surgery. So they just have him come in every so often to check it.

Thank you so much Hank for that wonderful information that you have posted. You are to be commended, not only for your age, but also that you take good care of yourself in doing all the right things to protect your eyesight. And no, your post was not too long at all. We need all the tips and help we can get as we get older and have things to go wrong with our bodies. I value yours and everyone elses information here and am taking notes to help me buy the right pills, and do the right things in preserving my eyesight. Like most of you here, I am an avid reader and do not look forward to the day that I may not be able to see to read.

I have heard of webtv, but didn't know anything about it until you described it here. One of these days, I may have to do the same thing, but I'm doing all I can now to preserve my eyesight and will cross that bridge when I come to it. As for eyestrain, I did ask my eye doctor if reading had anything to do with macular degeneration and he said "No." So that in itself was good news for me.

FrancyLou, thanks for the information about the Macular Fold I asked about. Any idea what causes it? Next time I go to the eye doctor, I will be sure and ask a lot more questions than I normally do.

Here's hoping everyone is having a good Memorial Day Weekend.

Marlene

Hank Evans, please notice at the top of this page is a box in the right hand corner tha has the words Enlarge Text. Do this to each discussion and it will help you very much. Good Luck

JIMS GARBO: Bless yourlittle old sweet heart-a very nice answer to my post.I do hope I helped. Our lives wouldn't be worth a damn if we are not of some use to others.Hang in there.

ROSEDA: Thank you so much for your interest. I always crank up the print size to the max. It was thoughtful of you to bring it to my attention.

Good luck-all of you.Hank

Hank,

If you want to learn more, go to the Health Matters Folder. There you will find discussions on Glaucoma, Macular Degeneration and eye and vision problems. All three are joined so if you post to one you have posted to all. If you have not already been there you might want to read some of the past postings (at your leisure) if you have questions the people in those discussions will be happy to help you.

Also, there is a discussion on Diabetes and associated eye and vision problems.

Tiger Tom

Dicussion,

This Discussion ends tomorrow. I would like to thank those of you who have particpated. I hope that something has been learned from this discussion.

I also hope that you will go to the Health matters Folder.

Tiger Tom

To all of you that gave me good insight into Macular Degeneration, etc., I would like to say "Thank You." I value the information and will be reading all of the information in the Health Matters Folders. There's a wealth of information there that I haven't read. In fact, there's lots of information here at SeniorNet that I need to take the time to look through.

Take care of yourselves everyone, we want to be around for a long time to come.

Marlene

Tiger Tom

Thank you for the great discussion. So many points that I hadn't heard of before and need to keep in mind from now on.

Everyone's posts are so informative and I'll will look them all over again, to refresh my memory.

I have had dry mac. degen for over 12 years and with care by my MD and naturopathic physician I have had little macular change and vision in both eyes is nearly normal. Recently I am noticing deterioration in one eye. Through research I learned about a TENS unit specifically developed for retinal diseases. According to those who have used it, some people have regained some vision, a few have regained all vision, and none have had deleterious effects from the treatment. An ophthalmologist near me was planning to conduct a research study using the special TENS units and I was hoping to be in the study. It was a well constructed random study. He has decided not to do it. Do any of you have any information about these TENS units? I am still interested in using one. I am interested in doing whatever I can to keep my vision, but I am careful about those who claim success when there was none. Thank you.

Maryannie

My goodness, Maryannie - NOW you get here with your intriguing post!

As someone who leans heavily toward alternative and wholistic forms of care I am very curious as to what sort of treatment you received from your naturopath. Was it supplements such as the ones mentioned earlier? Do your naturopath and regular doctor work together on your behalf? Could you tell me roughly what part of the country you live in and whether it is, or is near a large city?

And the TENS unit sounds just fascinating. So sorry you could not be part of the study. Any reason given as to why it was discontinued?

Sorry to have so many questions but this is really interesting to me.

Maryannie, Dianne,

Maryannie, very interesting post.

I suggest you continue this in the Macular Degeneration discussion in the Health Matters Folders. I am sure that the people in that disucssion would be very interested in this and might know a bit about the TENS units. If not they certainly would like to hear about them.

Tiger Tom

Maryannie...as Tom suggests, this discussion will be ending, but we have a continuing discussion of macular degeneration in our Health Matters folder.

Please come over and tell about your experiences. I know that the others will be most interested!

Click here to go to "Macular Degeneration" discussion

jane

This month History Detectives ~ PBS Program Clubs is for Curious Minders as well as PBS Program Club folks. The History Detectives discussion is now open everyone.

FRANCY LOU and ROSEDA: I moved your posts to ---History Detectives ~ PBS Program Club ~ June 18 because that is where the discussion is. This discussion is Read Only.

Curious Minds is now on vacation.

Come back and join us in mid September!!

jane

ARE YOU SICK AND TIRED OF TRYING TO LOSE WEIGHT IN VAIN?

This article in National Geographic Magazine might give us more reasons to keep trying because obesity is a national problem of giant proportion.

OBESITY
Is obesity an illness?
Is it a lack of self-control?
Is it a psychological problem?
How much exercise is enough exercise?
Is advertising the main cause of obesity?
Why is it so difficult to keep weight down?
What is your attitude toward gastric by-pass?
What is the relationship between genes and obesity?
Does the medical profession really understand obesity?
What do you think about medication in treating obesity?
Is it only caused by too many calories and too little exercise?
As obesity is not a problem in certain rich countries, why is it a problem
for us?
Why do some people never gain weight no matter how much they eat?
At what point does being overweight become being obese?

The following links are for discussion purposes only. Any information or advice on linked pages is not necessarily endorsed by SeniorNet and does not replace the advice of your own professional advisor.

LINKS:

National Geographic Article

Sugar || Animal Fat and the High Risk of Cancer || Genetically Engineered Food || Eating and Boredom || How to Live to be 100 (and not regret it) || Food addiction || Overweight and the Mind || Mini Gastric Bypass || Obesity and Prostate CancerPDF file || Obesity in old age tied to increased Alzheimers risk || Top Ten Tips on What Works and Why || Reading Food Labels || Body Mass Index || Menu Planner

Tell us what you think about weight problems as they are affecting our whole life.

First Post for this Topic

Discussion Leader: Eloise

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We are bombarded with advice on diet and exercise but let’s face it, it only works on a few people who have the energy and the willpower.

Ads are promoting wrong food choices and the government allows this even if the cost of treating diseases caused by obesity is a heavy tax burden.

We are left with trying to find solutions to the obesity problem outside of governmental and scientific channels and even if what we find is highly speculative it is better than doing nothing. Necessity is the mother of invention. If we have found ways to walk on the moon, to cure and treat a high number of diseases, invented astounding communication technologies and yet, we are unable to solve the problem of obesity, what is wrong with us?

The article linked in the heading in the August issue of the National Geographic Magazine is explicit on which country has the highest rate of obesity.

More than 24% are obese in the United States (about 70 million people).

20 to 24% are obese in Germany, England, Russia, Turkey, Egypt and South Africa.

15% to 19% are obese in Canada, Belgium, Australia, Peru, Uzbekistan, Kuwait, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kazakhstan and Tunisia. 10 to 14% in South America.

Less than .9% are obese in China, all of Africa except South Africa, Philippines, India, Norway, Scandinavian countries, France Spain, Italy, Austria, Netherlands and Denmark.

These statistics, done by the World Health Organization, were found on page 50 and 51 of the August 2004 issue of the National Geographic Magazine.

This is telling us a message and it will be interesting to read what you think about it

I think this is a very timely subject. My personal experience is probably much like many here in the US.

Plump children were encouraged to clean up their plates, so they would get dessert. I was "well-built" (my father said) from age 4 on. I have battled my weight since then. I have tried many diets, but the best one involves eating the correct food and eating less. Counting calories is the way to go.

I sometimes think I can gain weight, just by smelling a roast in the oven. Over the years I probably have lost 400 pounds, <grin> but not all at once.

Obesity = Gluttony Check out the horrible fat and starchy foods piled up in the grocery carts amid processed junk. Excess weight is due to lack of self respect, respect for others,and selfish indulgent instant gratification: often disgusting. "You are what you eat."

I don't agree that "obesity = gluttony" - at least not necessarily. Obesity is NOT a character flaw, and if we were all "good people" we wouldn't be overweight. It's a simple matter of taking in more calories than we burn up.

I'm certainly obese (not in my own eyes of course, but by the charts) - and I never eat all that fatty, junk, fast food. I don't drink soft drinks or alcoholic beverages. But I hate to exercise, although I am making myself do at least an hour of exercise every day. And so my calorie intake and output are pretty much balanced now - that is, my weight is stable. To lose weight, of course, I'd have to decrease the intake and increase the output. And that's definitely easier said than done.

But IMHO there are many things that contribute to weight gain. Income was limited when I was growing up and there were no fast food places. If there had been who would have supported them. We lived in a city and never owned a car, didnt need to since buses were cheap and took us every place we needed to go. People walked ...or took taxis for those special times, funerals, weddings etc..which I remember was ten cents and for that they would take a whole family anywhere in town.

There were no school buses and we walked to school, walked to church, walked to the park, walked downtown, movies, etc. I had few fat girlfriends ,, we were all slim and trim.

Processed foods use all sorts of preservatives, fats and salt ..that contribute to weight gain. Plus in my thinking much of that is addictive. For large families like my parents ..we had enough to eat but not enough for second helpings or left over since we only had an ice box and no frigerator. Ice cream was home made ( and not often) or purchased ..it didnt lurk in a freezer to be eaten whenever you wanted some.

Candy was either home made fudge ( and not too often) or small amounts ..Mother would give one of use 25 cents to go to the corner drugstore for penny candy but with a large family we only has a small amount. Potato chips etc were never part of our regular diet nor did we have bottled soft drinks in the house. That was reserved for a trip to the confectionary. Popcorn made at home was our big treat and on weekends mother made two pies and a cake but nothing the rest of the week. So our lifestyles contributed to a healthier life way of eating and burning up calories.

When I baby sit my grandchildren I am appalled at what the pantry and freezer and refrigerator holds. When my children were young we only had potato chips and soft drinks on special days like the 4th of July or a picnic. Orange juice diluted with 5 cans of water was what they were allowed to drink as they wanted. Like my mother home popped corn was what we ate around the TV in the evenings, In winter it was hot cocoa and once they were out of babyhood they drank ( lots of it too) non fat powdered milk mixed with water ..It was hard for them to get used to drinking "real milk" and to this day they ask for extra water when ordering orange juice at a restaurant...it is too strong for them as is.

What am I saying?? Lifestyles make a difference and the over use of pre prepared foods makes a difference. Last year I wanted to make cherry cobbler for Christmas .and I had to go to four stores before I found plain sour cherries for pie. The stores offered cherry fillings which taste gross to me. The stores are full of convenience food now instead of foods that need preparation. One of my oldest daughters mother only used TV dinners ..she couldnt believe I made sphaghetti sauce from scratch or anything for that matter and she was a beautiful girl but was grossly overweight.

We really need to change our way of thinking abuot food, It is meant to nourish us not entertain us. And I must confess I have become lax about my use of preprepared foods as well.

Thanks to you Eloise this is a timely and important disussion ..we can all benefit by this discussion.. anna

I am so confused about what to eat and what not to eat. I have heard so much and read so much that my natural inclination to just eat enough has gone out the window.

We are told to eat a certain food to lower blood pressure, lower cholesterol, relieve arthritus, lose weight, gain weight, etcetera and so on.

I am considered obese and have reached the point where I just want to live, I don't want to watch every meal I eat, or to consider every walk I take as exercise. It is consuming my life, its not a natural life anymore.

So with all my complaining, why did I sign onto this site to read and talk about obesity? Because I am hoping that someone will say something that will open my eyes to gaining control of my life.

Dottie

Dottie, I'm considered obese too. But....my family would not love me more if I was thin, I would not have more friends if I was thin, and my life would not be miraculously improved if I was thin. The worse thing I could do was get on a weight loss 'program'. I've done it and yes it consumed my life. My life revolved around the diet, food planning, what's next to eat, etc.

Now, I only concentrate on the word 'healthy'. I don't eat unless I'm hungry and I eat lots of food, but it's healthy food. I don't believe in any diet that eliminates or greatly reduces intake of a specific food, such as the low carb craze. Healthy to me means lots of fruit and veggies and anything else in moderation. Of course I have a treat occasionally, and never deprive myself. I'm losing weight at the rate of 1 lb. a week. It's easy to do that, and it will stay off when done this way.

As for exercise, yuck! We have 7 acres of land so recently my husband cut a path thru our pines and on our land and now I take my dogs walking almost every day, depends on how I feel. It's not a long walk, but it's good for me and I enjoy it because I enjoy my dogs.

I hope this helps.

Well, last night I took the NG test and scored 88%, so it's not that I don't know what to do. I love fruit and vegetables and fish, rarely drink sodas. I swim twice a week. But still, I'm well overweight and it shows, especially in all the family reunion pictures I've been looking at lately.

I was about to say I think MHB's post was a little harsh, but there is truth to it. I don't know about the gluttony and lack of self-repsect part, but we're all responsible for what we put in our mouths. Most of us could probably lose weight if we gave up certain foods for a while.

Two friends recently lost 30 pounds each. One followed Dr. Gott's "no flour, no sugar" diet. The other just cut back and eliminated cheese and ice cream entirely from her diet.

Eloise, thanks for taking on this topic. I've started reading the article and have put it in my links bar.

BamBam, I was just up in your part of the country last week -- Waupaca and Outagamie counties. Are you near the Wolf River -- it's pretty up there.

This is a wonderful topic for discussion since most of us tend to gain weight as we get older. I am currently overweight. In my life to this point I have been overweight, average, and thin. I prefer average. At one point I got to be thin enough that I (briefly) came to understand how those who are anorexic must think. THAT was an eyeopener. But I didn't stay at that quite thin point for long.

I read a study recently (can't remember the source but it was reputable) that says that the most important factor in whether overweight people were healthy or not was exercise. It seems that it's all about getting the heartbeat up and the circulation going. If you walk every day you are healthier, no matter what you weigh, than you would be if you didn't.

I don't walk, I swim. Sometimes I don't go very fast, but I always feel better when I swim. It can be very hard to make myself swim religiously though. It seems so much difficulty to change clothes, take shower, spend thirty minutes in the water, take another shower, dress, but it is SO worth it, as the kids say.

Hi everyone. This is a very interesting topic for one such as myself that has been small, medium and large. I have had a weight problem since I was a small child and it continues today.

Now that I am living alone, I don't bother to fix the right meals for myself so I just eat whatever is easiest and that is wrong, but so be it.

I have always been a walker and I loved it and I miss it. The most important thing I find is not being able to walk like I used to. When I was to able to walk everywhere, I didn't have a problem with weight like I do now. Since I fractured my knee and have two surgeries on it, I can't walk too far and then I use a cane so the weight has stayed.

The only good thing is that I vary four pounds up or down everytime I go to the doctor. I wonder why I can't do that when my weight is down where it should be.

MHB, welcome aboard our ship. About gluttony, if you suffer from overweight I sympathize with you, and if you don’t, it is very hard to put a label on those who do and I urge every participant to be considerate of each other as we debate this national problem.

MaryZ, wonderful that you have changed your mind set and that is what is important if you want to achieve lasting results as you say.

Annafair, you have said important things and I too was too poor to be anything buy scrawny and I still remember my mother saying to us “Slow on the butter” not because of anything to do with health, but mostly with our budget. My mouth still waters at the ONE pound of ice cream, the real McCoy that occasionally we had and it was divided into EIGHT in parts, well let me tell you we licked the plate clean.

Dottie, welcome. As I said to Annafair, the Depression taught us something very valuable, if you don’t have enough money to get a belly full, then you have to choose the food very carefully and my mother never bought cocacola, candy, not much meat, very seldom dessert. Sometimes I think that if we were suddenly faced with a depression, we would have to spend less on food, but choose it well. Is that a solution? Spend less and stock very little in the pantry.

BamBam, Hi! Exercise!!!! I hate to do it, yet I do walk a mile a day and climb a 5 story hill often afterwords. But even if I always exercised all my life, it makes me fitter, but to lose weight I would have to do a LOT more, I was never a fan of aerobics before, but exercise is easier AFTER you become more fit but to get there takes sometimes more than we can muster. Seniors cannot do much exercise, then where does that leave you?

You know Pedln, years and years ago I had to give up certain foods for good. Had to, is not really true, but it was better that I give it up and I am trying to think of what I gave up over the years, one day I will give you the list. I was really worth giving it up and for some of those things I don’t even like them any more.

Everyone, I ask you to read the questions in the form of a boat above and tell me what you think. After two weeks of debating about this, something should come out that we never thought of before. One of the questions is about genetics. Do you think we are born to be the way we are? And what do you think about seniors ability to exercise to lose weight?

Patwest, didn't mean to skip over you. At one time cleaning you place was quick and easy, there was never enough, but we all grew up just the same to be normal adults.

One thing I would like to say is that when my daughter at age 7 became a child-onset diabetic, she was very thin, it jarred all of into instand awareness as nobody was diabetic in the family. It's genetic you will say, but we will see about that as we talk more. Since then I have taken a serious look at the value of nutrition, not only for her, but for all the family. That was the turning point I think for me.

Eloïse

There must be a reason to even have the desire to eat more than our body needs don't you think? I notice my two grand sons Anthony, 11 and Charles, 12. Anthony weighs 85 pounds and is about 5 feet, his cousin Charles is 139 pounds and he is the same height. We all see each other often.

Anthony takes after his very thin father. When he has had enough, he is unable to swallow another bite, desserts included. Charles though can eat twice as much as Anthony and he has to make a mental decision to stop eating because he started to be teased about his weight. Anthony has a "stop eating" mechanism and why not Charles. That is very significant for me because it should be normal that we should all automatically feel full after a meal. If I didn't make a mental decision to stop, I could eat twice as much all the time.

I don't know if anyone has any idea about this?

Eloïse

I agree with some of those in the previous posts, gluttony and obesity are not synonyms. We do gain weight as we get older. For women it could be the change in the hormones as we reach the "change of life." I am overweight and am in the process of gradually losing weight. Several years ago I lost the weight I needed to do, but when I reached a goal weight a medical problem developed. I read somewhere that this could be the result of losing weight. So I got the "brilliant idea" that if I gained my weight back the problem would go away. Well I did gain the weight back but the problem didn't go away. So now I am trying to lose all that weight again and since I am older it is much harder. I am not doing anything drastic. Just watching what I eat and walking over to a nearby health club as often as possible.

When I saw this new group regarding "OBESITY", and I am obese, I thought this will be like discussing politics. But after reading todays posts decided I add my thoughts. Like many others this has been a life long battle for me, started gaining in elementary school and it's been up and down since then. I've been on most of the "diets", and I can always loose weight, has been harder the older I get, but have never been able to keep it off. Why some of us are like this and others are not is a mystery to me, why don't we all have the ability to click the full button. Yes, you may call it gluttony, but unless you have experienced it, you have no understanding of what it's like not to be able to control the desire. It can be much like a drug addict or an alcoholic, but the worst part is that we require food to live. I agree with several of you that how we lived years ago, I walked everywhere and rode the wheels off a tricycle as a kid, played sports, even football with the guys in my neighborhood. BUT....I was still one of the few fat kids in my school...we didn't have lots of extras in food, we had soda pop and home made ice cream on 4th of July only. Anyway, I joined Jenny Craig a year or so ago, lost weight slowly, but like others here I was constantly thinking about writing stuff down and keeping tract of this or that, and decided it just wasn't worth it at my age, have bad knees and back, so just want to be able to go and do what I can and be happy. Yes, I would like to know if genetics are a part of this or if there is an answer to why we have this problem, so I will join this group and I'd like to discuss with others, but hope it can be positive and open but not hurtful.

Lovingly Honest, Wanda

Hi: Like to say that I have always said the same as Annafair, growing up about the same time she did. I think all the walking we had to do into our early adult years probably held our weight down some, and this is primarily the reason you see so many younger women with too much weight on them today. However, I never weighed more than 120 lbs. until my mid-fifties. I quite smoking 10 years ago, and put on thirty lbs in a short period of time. Now I am really obese, weighing over 200 lbs. I do not eat any more and probably less than when I was younger. What is different is that I became asthmatic about 8 years ago, and since then have been on a steriod inhalor consistently. I find that I have all the undesirable side effects that these meds create. I have been on Advair for the past 3 years, and would like to know if anyone else has been on cortisone inhalors and experienced a great deal of unexplained weight gain. At present am weaning myself off of this med, as it has caused too many other problems for me. It is difficult to exercise, even walk any distance when you have a respiratory condition, so therefore it becomes a matter of gaining more weight because of sedentary life now. Has anyone tried Cortislim? My instincts tell me this is too good to be true, but have bought a bottle anyway. Hope I didn't waste my money. To sum it up, weight problems in older women are due to a variety of reasons, and certainly not overeating or gluttony, as one message suggested.

There can be many reasons for obesity or gaining weight. Gluttony is only one. Some medicines make one feel hungry, for example. There can be psychological reasons for eating too much and gaining weight.

Overeating can be an addiction, just like abusing alcohol or drugs. That issue can't be treated in the same way that other eating problems are.

I admit to overeating recently because of pain. Eating draws the blood to my stomach and away from inflamed areas of my body, so I feel less pain for a while. Recognizing what you're doing is part of the way to understand why you've had an increase in weight, and consequently can become a way to lose it.

In my opinion, people can't know if they're overeating unless they keep track of everything they eat. A program like Weight Watchers is successful because each item of food is weighed, and there's a point system with foods more likely to make one gain weight with higher points than those that are not. In other words, eating follows a discipline.

I think weight gain usually is a combination of things. In older adults lack of exercise can be a part of the reason. If trying to lose weight, an informed eater stays away from food he or she knows are high in calories.

The answer to all of this is to make one's mind up that the weight will be lost, one way or another. If it helps to use a system like Weight Watchers or one of the diets popular right now, than that's what we have to do. Overeaters Anonymous can be, and is, a big help to many people who have trouble losing weight alone.

Mal

Eloise - thanks for running this interesting and important discussion.

Re: your comment above about why some people easily stop eating when satisfied and others continue, I wonder if it has something to do with what I've heard called the "appestat" (sp?), an area in the brain that tells us when we're full, although I understand that it usually has a 20-minute delay. So, in other words, we may feel inclined to continue eating for another 20 minutes after we've had enough! Bad design if that's the case! And maybe not all appestats are set the same.

When I can make myself think about it, I DO notice when I've reached a point of no longer feeling hungry but, alas, I'm one of those who eats not just to keep my body fueled but also because I enjoy the stuff!

Eloïse, thank you for suggesting this discussion about an issue that is vitally important to all of us.

As Annafair said, we all remember leaner years when we lived more frugally and did so much walking. The decades after WW II brought radical societal changes, among them greater affluence, and more amenities in every respect, AND more food. All kinds of food from all over the world, tempting, nowadays often already measured and packaged, ready to heat and eat. But is it always good for us? The answer is "no".

Mary7 is right: I think we do sometimes eat what is "handy" and already "there", knowing better, of course. Once we get into and beyond menopause, weight gain is common for women, even with plenty of exercise for some.

Eloïse , I believe not all people are "built" the same way; some are lean, others more "compact", even rotund. Not everyone's metabolism works the same way.

I wonder, though, when I see a family in the mall, father and mother both overweight, and the child/children the same shape. Is it the genes, or is it the food they eat, or both? Are snacks and the many varieties and flavors of soft drinks nutritious? Necessary? The problem is nation-wide, of course.

But for us in our golden (?) years it may well be a matter of life or stroke that we know HOW and WHAT to eat. As for how, I'd say smaller portions, more often. That has helped me.

As to WHAT, please let's look into this together for our common benefit. Since the subject is dear to your heart and you have explored it for years, Eloïse, please lend us the help of your experience.

I do not believe that a weight loss program is the ONLY way to lose weight. And it may not be permanent! About ten years ago my overweight neighbor joined Jenny Craig and became an enthusiastic champion of the method. She lost a tremendous amount of weight and became something of a model and spokesperson -- for a while. It did not last. She is larger now than she was then.

Louise, don’t feel guilty about that, but as you say, as we get older it is harder to lose it. You know I was thinking right now that when we exercised when we were young it is not the same as a Senior. Some of the muscle mass in youth is replaced by fat later. That is the hard part, because I can only say by experience that before I was married all I had to do was a bit of exercise and bingo I lost the weight but not any more. I need strenuous exercise that I don’t like to do.

For the elderly, exercise helps to stay a bit more fit but you don’t lose anything. A mile walk will make you lose a pound and a muffin afterwords will cancel that. An obese person cannot lose weight by exercise unless he/she is young to do aerobics and muscle building. So what remains is a different approach on nutrition.

When they research on overweight and come up with what a person should eat and do, the scientists are not taking into consideration what amount should a Senior person do. They seem to only examine the amount of calories and exercise not mentioning that as we get older, that should vary. So we are left with NO information.

But then when the problem has become un, you need a different approach. Please don’t say to ask my doctor some of them are obese themselves.

Wandamac, hello you are among friends here and bring us your views, I love how you express yourself. As for genetics, my twin daughters are both diabetic at 47. They have never been obese, but my two sisters are also diabetic and one of them weighed around 170 when she was declared diabetic. She lost 30 pounds over 7 years. Yes, in a way, genes have a lot to do about obesity but although I have not studied medicine, I am almost sure that the pancreas has lots to do with how we process our food.

Freeper, no I am positive obesity is not gluttony and if the medical and pharmaceutical industries, (yes) have not found the true cause then that leaves us open to try to find answers our own way.

Eloïse

Hi,

I am interested in this topic too. I think there has to be some sort of genetic component to this. I have always been slender, as are my sisters. Although my father was a little heavier than he should have been in his middle years, he has never been "fat" and my mother has never been heavy either. All of my children are slender. At a recent family reunion I looked around, and although there were some who were slightly overweight, there were no obese folks.

I have friends who are truly obese, and I see their struggles to get their weight down. I believe that their weight contributes to some of their health problems. I know they are not obese because they are gluttons. I also know that they do not exercise as much as I do, but is that because they don't want to or because it is so difficult for them physically? The trip down to the coffee shop is just a short walk for me, for them it can be a workout.

I don't if the inherited tendency is the weight gain itself, or how appetite is triggered or what tastes good or how food is processed in the body. All I know is that I don't have to watch what I eat, and I sometimes feel guilty when with friends because of that.

N

I just checked my email and had something from the Lean Plate Club of the Washington Post. I don't remember just how I came to receive this weekly message, but the site is below. Then there are a list of columns you can request, including health. They always have pertinent articles and low-cal recipes. I don't remember if you have to register for the Post itself. Deems, do you know?

At any rate, it's quite worthwhile.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/admin/email?referrer=email

nlhome, I think genetics must play a part, and metabolism as well. Are the thin wiry folks with lots of energy that way because they're thin, or because they're running around and active all the time?

I had to laugh at your comment about likeing the stuff! Years ago I had a friend who was on a doctor ordered diet and she said it was so hard to diet because she loved the taste of the food in her mouth.

When I was young I stayed slim about 109 for a 5' frame. After my daughter was born when I was 25 I went to 122 .in my 30's I reached 130 and stayed that way for a long long time. About 50 I added a few more pounds but really didnt become over weight until I reached 60 when it seemed extra fat had been lying in wait for me. Even then it was a gradual process. I have no idea how much I really weigh since once I started putting on extra weight I refused to weigh myself and when weighed at the doctors office I close my eyes and no one tells me what the scales say. Like others I dont want to agonize. I try to eat sensible. I eat a lot of fruits and veggies ,. very little meat, not too much bread.. I mean I dont think I have more than two slices in a week if at all. I eat small meals but I still am overweight. I would love to be smaller but refuse to punish myself.

My husband who was 6'2" never weighed more than 175 as an adult. He was slim and when he died at 64 of cancer he could still wear his uniforms from his miltitary service and he ate like he a trojan. Whenever we had guests they would watch in awe as he piled his plate not once but twice. He didnt smoke, drank a glass of wine once in awhile .. drank milk ..a qt a day I would say and eat a doz cookies at a sitting. Once I kept track of how many calories he consumed in a day and I think it was close to 5000.. I envied his ability ..but have no idea why his metabolism was so high to allow him this consumption of calories.

My father was thin and I now have my mothers shape which was similar to her sisters.Slender until they reached fifty when they put on weight My mother became a Type 2 diabetic around 65 and watched what she ate diligently and she walked every day of her life but until she died at 86 she was still overweight. My fathers sisters were always thin like thier mother. I would guess heriditary plays a part in obesity but I have to believe that our society has given up eating home made food for processed and I believe it contributes to our problem.

I hate to eat out because I can never eat all I am served. And feel guilty about that . So I steam veggies in the microwave add lemon juice and some melted butter and perhaps some cheese and that makes up a lot of my meals. I use two scoops of a protein powder, a cup of skim milk and 1/2 cup of no sugar frozen strawberries or blueberries each am for breakfast. That is to make sure I get enough protein. But I confess I miss the taste of chocolate and ice cream so those are my weaknesses but I dont over indulge in those either ..I do eat a lot of nuts..I dont know I would like to lose weight but have decided I wont unless I am willing to cut my calories a great deal ..although I have no idea how many I consume in a day. I never eat a big meal ..never so have no idea if it is genetic or not!

I am hoping to find some good ideas here ...that means you will have to come up with something since I obviously would have no idea where to start..anna

Mal, eating is very enjoyable, it makes us forget our problems. But the consequence of gaining weight is also so painful, especially in your case, more weight to carry around and stress on the joints and bones. I only wish there was one Easy solution.

Diane, hi! Yes, it takes 20 minutes for the brain to tell send a message that you have enough but it is between those 20 minutes that the problem lies. Lately I have decided to eat more slowly and use a smaller plate hahaha and I will tell you later how I am doing, I want to savor every bite before it disappears, especially if it is something I love.

Traude, yes I know, in this family there is a lot of talk about genetics. I don’t have diabetes but my twins are both diabetic, so are my two sisters, yet, not one of my two sisters 8 children is diabetic, only my twins. Strange.

Anna, You said: “That is to make sure I get enough protein” That is what I do too because when I have my protein, my mind gets off food entirely, but we do have to be very careful to have complete nutrition along with it.

Nlhome, thank you for sharing this with us. You are absolutely right about genetics and also metabolism, but don’t you think that we need to know all the inside story about our own metabolism, but we can’t have all the tests we need in order to know if something is not quite right so we are left to look for information ourselves.

Later I want to talk about eating out. Another big topic.

Thanks for sharing everyone, it is just super the response we have with this.

Eloïse

When in my teens I weighed 98 until I was married at 18 and pregant, then I gained some weight. I was 2 inches short of 6 ft. With each child I gained a few pounds till in my 40s I weighed 160 and stayed there into my 60 when I slowly gained. Now I am 72 and weigh in at 235 but feel much better than I did when younger, actually since menipause I feel much healthier and only take nexium for gerd and I eat healthy as my sister insists we could soon be type 2 something if we don`t eat healthy. I can walk 10 miles no problem but not fast.

I was a skinny kid, teenager and slim right thru to my 40's. Then I started to pile the weight on. I had " mirror image " syndrome but a reversal of anorexia syndrome. When I looked into a mirror I never really saw the fat person, I was becoming. I never imagined myself as FAT just pleasantly plump, the middle age spread, any excuse but the truth. The truth was, I was plain ol' FAT. It took me years to say the words "I am fat, how did I get this way?" In 1990 I finally did something about it.

Just think about this:

1930 - 1950 Most food products made from scratch - not too much modern conviences - slimmer people
1950 - 1970 An explosion in dry boxed fast foods - automation everything and the explosion of television - fatter people
1970 - 1990 An Explosion in home computers, processed freezer foods, chemical induced longer shelf life of foods fast, fast, faster ..... obesity on the rise
1990 - to presant day -

We are finally as consummers looking back at decades of chemical filled food products.
We are finally demanding nutritional content be place on all foods
We as consummers, have to educate ourselves to healthwise choices in foods.
We as consummer have to learn to shop, cook and eat differently if we are to escape obesity.

Buyer Beware... is so true when it comes to what we fuel our body with. It's the only one we got we best be diligent in choosing the fuel wisely.

. . . of self control. I can tell you from having worked in the medical field for over 30 years that the illnesses thin people have are just as harmful as those heavier people have. They are merely DIFFERENT. It's a currently politically correct mantra that the medical profession lays on us whenever they don't have a cure or a good answer, and it's easier to get payment for a "cholesterol check" from an insurance company than it is to have your kidney functions checked.

Here are some quotes from a book I read recently called "The Beauty Myth" by Naomi Wolf, most of which I tend to be in agreement with:

“Where once a woman was allowed to take communion if she made a full and sincere penance, now a woman is granted a given procedure “if she has sincerely tried diet and exercise.” The state of her fat, like the state of her hymen in the past, is a community concern: “Let us pray for our sister” has become “We’ll all encourage you to lose it.”

“We see that men die once and women die twice. Women die as beauties before their bodies die.”

“Think of holding a dime between your buttocks . . . do this whenever possible---walking, watching TV, sitting at your desk, driving in your car, standing in a bank line. She is urged to flex her vaginal muscles while waiting for an elevator, to clench her jaw while hanging up her laundry. The mantra of mantras is her constant calculation, throughout the day, of the calories taken in and expended. The calorie chant, a low hum, is so habitual to many women’s minds that the Hare Krishna practice of chanting seven hours a day would be child’ play to them. Like the calorie chant, the mantra is repeated on one track of the mind while the rest is busy with other activities.”

Keats wrote, “She cannot fade, though thou hast not they bliess. Forever wilt thou love and she be fair.” The sentence’s ambiguous grammar, which has given sleepless nights to generations of schoolgirls, reiterates the promise to women that they will get love if only they escape from time. The dark side, the girl hears, is that if she is not fair forever, he will not love her forever.” (This also includes a woman who is considered "fat" in our society)

“Men are mor aroused by symbols of sexuality than by the sexuality of women themselves; they are fetishists. Fetishism treats a part as if it were the whole; men who choose a lover on the basis of “beauty” alone are treating the woman as a fetish—that is, treating a part of her, her visual image, not even her skin, as if it were her sexual self. Freud suggests that the fetish is a talisman against the failure to perform.” (once again, this includes a woman who is considered "fat" in our society)

“Sadly, the signals that allow men and women to find the partners who most please them are scrambled by the sexual insecurity initiated by beauty thinking. A woman who is self-conscious can’t relax to let her sensuality come into play. If she is hungry, she will be tense. If she is “done up” she will be on the alert for her reflection in his eyes. If she is ashamed of her body, its movement will be stilled. If she does not feel entitled to claim attention, she will not demand the airspace to shine. If his field of vision has been boxed in by “beauty”—a box continually shrinking---he simply will not see her, his real love, standing right before him.”

“The film The Famine Within cites a sixteen-country study that fails to correlate fatness to ill health. Female fat is not in itself unhealthy.”

“Food is the primal symbol of social worth. Whom a society values, it feeds well. The piled plate, the choicest cuts, say: We think you’re worth this much of the tribe’s resources. Samoan women, who are held in high esteem, exaggerate how much they eat on feast days.Pbulicly apportioning food is about determining power relations, and sharing it is about cementing social equality. When men break bread together, or toast the queen, or slaughter for one another the fatted calf, they become equals and then allies.

What a bizarre world we live in, where women have bought into this destructive thinking about their own bodies. When one looks at a painting by Rembrandt of his second wife, one can see the love in that painting for her body---with all the fat and love handles and dimples and cellulite (By the way, did you know that the word "cellulite" was coined by Vogue magazine in 1973? and that before they called it that it was simply known as woman's flesh?).

. . . allow herself to be put under anesthesia for a gastric bypass or liposuction, since anesthesia has a higher risk than being just what she is. There are surgeons these days who do gastric bypasses at the drop of a hat and make hundreds of thousands of dollars per annum, and the guys who do liposuction make millions. They never discuss the anesthetic risks or the complications that can happen, or minimize them, but I have seen most of them first-hand.

The pressure on women to be thin comes from every direction, including the medical profession and societies "beauty" expectations. It's every bit as destructive as keeping women barefoot and pregnant was in the past. How we can truly be "free" women and allow our bodies to be manipulated by those outside forces is beyond my comprehension.

Roseda, welcome I agree with eating healthy and certainly we will be able to define what exactly is eating health food. Watch out for diabetes, it is a mean and hard-to-live with disease.

Imabcgal, the list of years you posted is what I was going to say. In the name of fast everything from food to cooking to eating is what we do nowadays. I think that since the Microwave oven things have gotten worse in that respect.

On thing though, since I am home most of the time, I make it a point to cook everything from 'scratch' so to speak. The reason is that a precooked dish has already lost a part of its nutrition, vitamins, minerals in the process. Then it is put either on a shelf, in the refrigerator, or in the freezer where it loses more of its value, then it is thawed, recooked or reheated losing more value. What is left? empty calories, starch and fat all turning into sugar as it goes through our system.

The body is screaming for real food but does not get it, instead it gets sugar. The mind is begging (craving) for real nutrition in order to shut the blasted craving for a while, we cave in and eat more sugar producing food instead of real nutrition.

OBESITY THEN BECOMES MALNUTRITION.

Mountainrose, how do you stop men from looking at a beautiful young women? I am only kidding. I agree that we are obsessed with beauty, but is it only to attract the opposite sex?

One of our famous business woman here aged about 51 died on the operating table as she was undergoing surgery for breast implants, face lift and liposuction all on the same day. She was already beautiful and beats me why she felt she needed surgery. I must say that she was working in the Entertainment Industry. This has really got out of hands hasn't it?

I don't think a senior woman wishes to be thin, it is just not pretty, a bit plump is OK with me, but to be fit and healthy also, why not?

Eloïse

WOW, this site certainly is popular.

Pedln, I'm in central Wisconsin about 20 miles north of Wisconsin Dells. Yes, I believe we have a beautiful state. In fall we are at our prettiest.

I have a great doctor who encourages me, but doesn't demand diets. She believes in eating well, not going hungry, and making the right choices. I'm losing a lb. a week now and it's a lot easier than I thought. I do have to work on the exercise thing, which I hate. My doctor says water exercise is the best one for me since I have Rheumatoid Arthritis as well as Osteo Arthritis.

And other European countries have a rate of obesity below l% and they hardly ever think of "diet" and "exercise" and when I go there and eat at the home of a close friend in France I watch everything. The whole family is extremely fit and trim. Denise like a lot of women her age shop every day for food and the funny thing is they are just starting to have large food courts, she used to go from one store to the other each day buying fruits and vegies, the other store for bread, the other store for cheese and perhaps meat, another for wine. Those stores, before they had a car, were not close by.

She cooked for her birthday, pasta that she made herself by hand, the filling for those little squares had simmered during the day, around 5 she started to make an apple pie not the way I make them, much more delicate and elaborately done. We sat down to eat around 8 and got up from the table around 11 have had a 5 course meal with 5 different vegetables, 3 different kinds of wine, for a special occasion only, and a tiny piece of pie. Denise at 60 can climb a mountain without any effort at all where I took 5 times longer to climb it than her.

Eloïse

It seems as if each generation has its idea of what beauty is. Right now, because the U.S. is obsessed with "thin"; that's the standard we go by. This can be dangerous for some young women who become anorexic or bulimic because they think they're fat, no matter how much they weigh.

Most women, as they grow older, are less interested in what's in style than they are with what's comfortable to wear. They usually continue a beauty regimen they began when they were very young. I never go without lipstick, for example, put cream on my face every night and wear makeup when I go out, just as I did when I was 20. I can't afford hairdressers, but if I could I'd go on a regular basis because it makes me feel good to look good to myself.

I no longer can say that fashion is based on the whim of men when so many women are fashion designers today. They also own cosmetic businesses, perfume businesses, and businesses that are associated with beauty. Estée Lauder, for example, became very rich as the head of a cosmetic business, which thrives today, even after her death. Staffs of fashion magazines today are predominantly women, too.

I see nothing wrong with pampering yourself if you are a woman, with lotions, creams and bath oils. If it makes you feel good; then do it. You're doing it foryou

Mal

In my opinion, there's only one way to lose weight, and that is to eat less.

I read a book once in which there was a young woman who was fat. One day she decided to eat the same food she'd been eating, but to eat only half as much. She lost weight.

Nobody will ever be able to convince me that being overweight doesn't affect people's health. For one thing, the more weight you're carrying around, the harder your heart has to work, the more tired you'll get and the more pain you'll have from arthritis because your bones are carrying an extra burden of fat. Arteries can become clogged with fat, and that's bad news any way you look at it. Fatigue and pain because of carrying extra weight can keep people from getting the exercise they need.

In an article I read once a woman carried a ten pound bag around with her an entire day. It made her muscles and bones ache, and she became much more tired than she would have ordinarily. By doing this she found out what ten extra pounds of weight did to her.

I wear a full length leg brace because of polio, have since I was a child. The new brace I just got weighs close to ten pounds. That's an extra ten pounds my body has to carry around all the time. Add to it only a few, or many, pounds of extra weight, and what does that do to me?

It's the very rare person who has a physical condition that makes them gain weight. Talk to your doctor and find out if there's any reason why you shouldn't go on a good weight loss diet. If he says there aren't any, then eat less and lose the weight. I guarantee that you'll feel better and have more energy if you do.

Excuses for not losing weight are easy. Stop making them!

P.S. I'm talking to myself here as much as I'm talking to any of you.

Mal

Eloise, your birthday dinner description brings up something I've been wondering about -- How much does timing affect weight gain?

Will a meal eaten shortly before bedtime contribute more to weight gain? I've heard that it does. One of our PE teachers, always slim, would spout off about that -- "Girls (referring to adult women), you eat after 7 o'clock, you're going to keep that weight on." I've also read articles that advocate at least 4 hours between last meal and bedtime.

The National Geographic article in the heading offers a forum on the subject of obesity. A young mother took NGS to task for having ads for high calorie sugan-laden foods in their children's magazine. Another told of the grocery clerk pushing two packages of cookies for the price of one -- how often we see that, Buy one, get one free.

Just yesterday I received lots of coupons from a new pizza place in town -- specials, this week only, two-topping LARGE. And the veggie diet delight for only $5.99! Yes, darn it, I'm tempted, and if I've got a good tape or DVD to watch, I'll probably get one, just to have something to munch while I'm viewing.

And that's a whole other topic -- TV and our waistlines.

Mal, you said it right -- the only way to lose is to eat less.

Our newspaper has just started a series following three local people who are trying to lose weight. They're all using a combination of smarter eating plus exercise. One is going to Weight Watchers. Of interest was that they are all mentioning eating 5-6 small meals per day, rather than our traditional three larger meals/day.

Personally, I eat "smart" at the regular meal times. My "bad" time is between dinner and bedtime. I've heard, too, that that's the worst time to snack - because those calories are usually those "empty" calories, and your body doesn't have time to burn off those calories before bedtime. It makes sense to me - but then we don't always do the sensible thing, do we.

MAL, one of my doctors told me that it was not good to be thin after a certain age, but I have read in Time's Magazine August 30th issue linked above entitled "How to live to be 100 and not regret it" that no centenarians are obese. In fact "Dr. David Sinclair joined the growing ranks of scientists who believe that severely restricting calorie intake can slow down the aging process" page 38. So to be hungry means living longer according to them.

PEDLN, I too can't eat late in the evening mainly because it keeps me awake at night. Not everything food goes through in the same amount of time, eating fruit first thing in the morning leaves the stomach in 15 minutes whereas meat takes up to 4 hours.

One thing I do want to know is why eating after dinner appeals to so many people, when obviously the three meals already eaten during the day should be amply sufficient?

MARY, My "bad" time is between dinner and bedtime. I've heard, too, that that's the worst time to snack There are snacks that are not empty calories, like fruit, cheese, nuts. I like half a glass of milk, but sometimes my urge takes overtakes my willpower, yes.

Ads on television work otherwise there wouldn't be so many. No matter how often we take commercial time to do something else, the little we watch has that damaging affect and the junk food companies know that. They have studied human behavior in minute details, they know exactly at what time to put in an ad, which slot to use which product. We get up, go to the pantry, during commercials, pick something gooey, fat and sweet and come back. Then we feel guilty for having given in.

Yes, television, the computer, microwaveable food and the car all contribute to obesity and we can't get rid of those, the only thing we have to change is our habits.

Eloïse

Hi Again: Since my first post yesterday about cortisone inhalors causing weight gain, I spent a considerable amount of time on a website about the dangers and bad side effects of the steroid inhalorsI have been using for the past several years. The common complaint is excessive weight gain. Just thought I would let the readers know about this, as I believe lung conditions and asthma are common among older people, and they are frequently put on one of these inhalors. I don't think this is the only reason for my weight gain, but is probably the biggest contributing factor.Also have a relative who developed diabetes around age 75, and after being placed on an oral insulin, went from a size large to a size 10.

I've known several people who were taking cortisone and gained a large amount of weight. I think the use of cortisone should be carefully watched, or even strongly restricted.

"The insatiable appetite experienced while on cortisone is real, not just a figment of the imagination." To see the article from which this quotation came, click the link below.

Nutritional Concerns of Cortisone

Doesn't cortisone cause some puffiness? I remember years ago some friends whose child was on cortisone because of a kidney problem, and his face would get puffy.

Also, an elderly aunt, when taking prednisone, complained that her underwear was too tight.

I agree eat less of the junk foods, take smaller portions and one is bound to loose weight.

But what if you are obese and eat like a sparrow?

Some obese people eat so little from Yo-Yo dieting which has made them not interested in food? I have a sister, like this. I do worry about her health. Is she starving herself?

Thank you for the link MAL. Every medication has side effects and it is dangerous not to follow our health professionals advice even if the internet give a lot of information, it is too often incomplete. In the long run when we are under medication it is better to follow the doctor's advice to the letter.

RESTAURANTS. I remember when I used to eat in a restaurant in the United States, the size of the plates was the same as here in Canada, but since the last 10 years or so, the plate and the meal are much larger. I wonder what brought that on, are we supposed to bring leftovers back home with us?

Portions are also larger and I am worried that this would cause the stomach to become larger also and it would be harder to have a feeling of fullness.

By eating slowly. at least 20 minutes from start to finish, I eat less I find. Also waiting before eating dessert at least 15 minutes to a half hour after the meal is finished gives a better sensation of satisfaction.

Eloïse

One thing I'd like to mention is that I believe we are subject, in the US anyway, to a lot of mis-information.

Specifically, I am thinking of the no-fat and low-fat craze. Our bodies need good fat to function properly, absorb nutrients, etc.But in this age of fast food and refined food, a lot of bad fats have made their way into our food supply. And, discovering the bad fat was detrimental to our health, somehow the word got out that we should avoid most all fat.

That led to the crazy food items like Snackwell (sp?) cookie products that are laden with extra sodium, sugar, etc. to replace the flavor that is missing from the removed fat. And, interestingly enough, America has grown fatter and fatter since the touting of low and no-fat items.

There's a world of difference between a vat of rancid, over-used refined oil used to cook fries and a nice olive-oil, extra virgin, based salad dressing. Or wholesome butter made from organically-raised cows. That is one of my luxeries. Also eggs from cage-free, properly fed chickens. It's a pity that these things cost more.

I think we need a few new words in our language to more clearly differentiate between GOOD and BAD oils, rather than just lumping them together as fats.

Same thing with carbohydrates which covers everything from refined, bleached white flour to a bowl of broccoli.

In my own overweight case, I do believe it started when I was in my mid-50's. Up till that time I had always been just about average and never had to work at it. Boy, I didn't know how lucky I was! But it was about at that time that my husband had a few strokes and a whole bunch of reversals entered our life. I don't recall necessarily eating more, although perhaps I did. My feeling is that there was something about all the stress that caused my body to accumulate weight. I can't say I've tried particularly hard to get rid of it as it continues to surprise me that it's there! (talk about denial!)

I find that I have no idea now how to dress myself, although changing styles probably have some bearing on that. Lately I notice that I'm walking differently and also that I hesitate slightly when stepping off a curb (fearful of losing my balance). I hate this.

Exercise is missing from my routine and I simply must find something to do about this. Has anyone tried rebounding? I don't have a rebounder but in the back of my mind I sense that this might be part of my answer.

Anyway, it's good to have found this group of kindred spirits.

I do exercise 5 days a week. I go to a deep-water aerobic exercise class at our nearby YMCA three days a week. The other two days, I do 5 minutes of treadmill, the circuit of machines, and 5-10 minutes on the recumbent stationary bicycle. I saw a personal trainer 3 times to set up this regimen. It takes about 45-60 minutes. I love the swimming, and tolerate the fitness center routine. I just know I need the exercise - just for good health, even if it doesn't make me lose weight.

Weight loss would be great, but my main goal in watching my diet (and I don't mean "dieting") and exercising is to help lower my blood pressure and to help my osteoarthritis. Weight loss would help these things, too, of course.

DIANE, you said: "I think we need a few new words in our language to more clearly differentiate between GOOD and BAD oils, rather than just lumping them together as fats." Reading food labels is so important. Sometimes when I am buying a new kind of bread, I have to go through reading 5 or 6 different labels before I find the bread that has just plain 100% whole wheat and nothing else except water. One bread had 15 ingredients including whole wheat, like sugar, salt, oil and all those chemicals to help a long shelf life and they have the gall to call it "healthy 100% whole wheat".

Reading labels every time very carefully is a good habit to take. At least if you are going to splurge, know what you are splurging on. Hahaha. The Chocolate Whippets I splurged on a month ago is coming back in my mind to nag at me again.

MARY, Great, good for you. My sister in her early 70's started figure skating 2 and 3 times a week. She took lessons. I told her she looked slimmer but she said her weight was the same. Then, one day, all of a sudden, she lost 5 pounds. It was the first time in 30, or 40 years that she weighed less than 140 lbs, but she claims it ages her face and she is trying to gain some back. Never happy.

Eloïse

I wonder if I lost weight where would the loose skin go when the fat left? My stomach already is beginning to sag after losing a few pounds, and if I lost more the skin is going to drop even further. If I got down to the 160 I carried for over 20 years My skin apron would be to my knees, LOL , what a sight that calls to my mind.

I do much as you that I eat what I want "but not to much" because I cannot as my stomach has shrunken since Mom passed as I do need someone to eat with, I guess. This is working out well for me as I went from 190 in 2002 to 160 in two years. Mom passed in 87 but in 2002 some thing else happened that I don't care to share at this time.

I think what happens to us in life has much to do with how we react in our eating habits as some over eat to compensate and some under eat. I can and intend to hold my weight where it is like eating macaroni and sharp cheese and or sweets if need be to keep my weight where it is today "maybe" even buying a pound of cholate covered cherries and eating the whole box my self "smile". Just now I do have potatoe chips one plain another Barbeque and one Sour Creme that I bought for a Labor Day party that was canceled "but no one told me" but I do what I was taught "waste not want not" or some such thing. I have apprieciated each and every post in here, thanks. Ginger

I am using virgin olive oil on my skin at this time and hope it works, who knows, I don't but for me it is worth a try.

My mother in law told me many years ago to just cut your food in half - but I was following the doctors advise so did not listen.

I have gained and lost hundreds of pounds - just terrible.

I finally am losing weight following a diabetic diet that is very very close to the South Beach Diet as far as I can tell by looking at the recipes for the SBD. I also am drinking much more water than I ever have in my life - about 8 glasses a day.

ROSEDA, the skin is elastic up to a point and the stomach more so, I think. No you wouldn’t have an apron to your knees. I had twins who weighted seven and a half pounds each at birth, believe me, my stomach was so big I could write letters on it. HaHaHa. It is the muscles that were hard to get back in shape. Don’t be afraid of that, the feeling you will have after will be well worth a little loose skin.

GINGER, I am sorry that you have had problems and if I know you, you never complain, always positive and encouraging. Small amounts of food each time you eat does make your stomach shrink as my sisters have experienced. But their 3 meals and 3 snacks are sugar free, they are both diabetic and are 5 feet tall, one weighs 125 and the other 135. So they keep their weight down by eating regular wholesome food. My older sister lived in France 8 years and she still cooks French cuisine. She loves cooking.

I have used natural coconut oil twice a day on my face and no commercial face cream since the last 20 years with good results. Natural coconut oil, almond oil and olive oil contain Vitamin E, it is an powerful antioxidant and rejuvenator.

FRANCY LOU, sugar in the blood is so damaging. Last evening I was watching the Health Channel and they were talking about obesity. The food that the five people had to cook was very good on this drastic diet and exercise program for 6 weeks, whole grains, lots of fruit and vegetables, fish and a variety of beans. No coffee, cigarettes, alcohol at all. All very fine, but these people had been abusing their body for 20 to 40 years and all at once stop everything. Now that is not realistic that they would keep it up after 6 weeks. It is too drastic.

The eating system, or method has to change, it comes from the mind, the will if you like. It is an attitude about food that has to change. Just to swallow something harmful because we feel down cannot do us any good if we keep it up.

Eloïse

ELOISE - this is such a great subject and so many people are interested in it! I've been following the comments and enjoying all the posts.

One comment I want to make - now we know where you get your beautiful skin! I wish I had known your secret 20 years ago.

Ruth

Mary, I'd like to hear more about your deep-water aerobics. Does it affect your knees? I've taken aquatics for arthritics, and liked it, but didn't feel I was getting much aerobic exercise. Now I just swim.

Someone asked about good and bad oils. Can that be compared to HDLs (good) and LDLs (bad)? Does anyone ever see those terms on food labels? I don't think I have.

I understand that Trans-fatty acids (horrible for you) will soon be on labels, but I haven't seen that yet either. And that brings ups the butter vs. margarine debate. My DIL and my oldest daughter both use butter, almost exclusively. My daughter said she was told that it was better for you than margarine. Dr. Gott (newspaper column) says to use margarine instead of cholesterol containing butter. A friend recently showed me the butter substitute she was using that was free of the trans-fatty acids contained in margarine.

It seems so much is changing so quickly that it's hard to keep up on what's good and what's not. I used to avoid avocados, which I love, because of all the fat in them. Now I understand that the fat in them is good fat, so I eat them.

Eloise, I think the CBS News segment last night was made for this discussion. Mike Huckabee, governor of Arkansas lost 110 pounds after he was diagnosed with diabetes. He decided to take fat issues to the people of his state. Every school child in Arkansas was weighed and 40% were overweight. Letters were sent home advising parents of the dangers to the health of their children. Some folks said it was not the state's business, but Huckabee says it's the people's tax dollars that pay for Medicare and Medicaid, that end up paying for obesity related diseases.

I applaud this guy, and think it's really sad when children and young people become obese. Most of that's from overeating and lack of exercise. Link to CBS news segment below.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/16/eveningnews/main643958.shtml?CMP=ILC-SearchStories

pedln - I don't know of a direct connection between the oils, and HDL or LDL other than that I think that anything good for you will have an effect on your whole body - that kind of thing.

Re: the trans-fatty acids, my understanding is that they are caused by the hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oils. You WILL see those on labels.

Here's what else I'm beginning to think I know. ALL refined oils are bad for you - the refining process removes nutrients, fiber - the whole balance provided by nature. The only unrefined oils I can find in the grocery store are olive oil. But here's the thing I'm learning about olive oil - it's monounsaturated, which is great for salads, etc. but when used in cooking it is unstable and easily becomes rancid at high temperatures. Butter, for example, and also unrefined coconut oil, are saturated but extremely stable at high temperatures and therefore, good for cooking. I have started using coconut oil and like it a lot.

This is a tricky subject and I still have a lot to learn.

Hooray for your governor! What a terrific attitude. I wish more of our "leaders" took that approach. And how sad about the little girl whose parents apparently gave her candy whenever she asked - but that's what comes from a lack of being informed.

pedln, I can guarantee you, you can get aerobic exercise in the pool. It's called Aqua-Interval. Since we're in the deep water, there is absolutely no impact on bones and joints. We wear a flotation belt, which helps with bouyancy, and sometimes use foam bar-bell-shaped floats for even further resistance in the water. The teacher directs us as to what to do throughout the class. We start with a warm-up, usually about four laps of the pool, whatever stroke we're comfortable with; then usually a few minutes of stretching (in the shallow end). Then we move to the deep water, and do movements such as jogging, sprints, jumping jacks, cross-country-ski, etc. This, with the water resistance is guaranteed to get your heart rate up.

Other things we do might include biceps curls and other arm exercises using the bar-bells; stomach crunches while floating on our backs; balance training by standing on the foam noodles.

Many of the folks don't ever get their heads wet (although they do exercise hard). I get too hot, and almost always dunk my head under to cool off (but my hair is VERY short).

The last ten minutes of the class are for cool-down and stretches - this is done in the shallow end. No bouncing involved, just stretches. The whole class is 55 minutes.

The super-benefit of this particular class is that all of the participants have become good friends - from the beginning 3 years ago, this group just "jelled" and has become quite a support group. We've had new grandchildren, g-grandchildren, family illnesses and deaths, surgeries - and this has been a super support group.

If you have access at a Y or any sports facility for this type of class, I'd give it a try. Before I started this one, I made sure it was all deep-water - I didn't want any jumping anywhere where my feet touched the ground. Of course, you can do all of this on your own in any deep water facility, but the class is at least a great start. Good hunting! (Gee, can you tell I'm enthusiastic!)

Just an 8 ounce glass of orange juice contains perhaps more than 300 calories because one Diet coke has 100 calories. It is written on the can. Any kind of juice has sugar in it even fresh squeezed oranges. The juice of one orange fills a glass only one quarter full but restaurants serve tall 8 ounces of orange juice coming from 4 oranges. Too much sugar.

I was talking to a friend who has just slimed down. (a bit too much in my view), and she said something about sugar addiction. It took her three weeks of total abstinence from sugar to stop her sugar cravings. After the three weeks, she doesn’t even like it any more.

It is difficult to know the producer’s intention when they put labels on, they would rather appeal to your overstimulated taste buds with sugar, salt and other additive than keep you healthy. What can we do if labels don’t even tell the truth. Looking for whole wheat bread at the store, there was very little whole wheat in the 100% whole wheat on the package. On the label, the rest was white flour, sugar, salt, preservatives, color and other chemicals to increase shelf life. I found one out of the 15 containing only whole wheat.

DIANE “the whole balance provided by nature” you said it all. Nature provides food but if it is altered, it doesn’t have the same nutritional value. All the processing done to it such as milk pasteurization, heating oils to extract more from its source, additives to preserve it, color and salt, hormones in meat, refined sugar, white flour does something to the body that we don't even suspect. Why are we not more informed about that?

Eloïse

ELOISE, I don't know which brand of Diet Cola you're speaking of, but the can of Diet Coke made by Coca Cola right in front of me has "Calories 0" printed right on it.

Mal

Here is the nutritional information on CARBONATED DRINKS Notice the amount of sugar and phosphoric acid, some diet drinks have either Aspertame or Sucralose, (Splenda) which is derived from sugar but has less calories. This link is supplied by the Coca Cola Co.

Eloïse

Here are the INGREDIENTS of aspartame. No sugar.

Robby

I must confess to being on the Optifast program almost 20 years ago. I did lose weight, but, of course, have gained it all back - and more. (And I don't do "diets" any more - just try to eat a sensible, balanced diet.) Anyhow, one of the problems with the Optifast product was that it was so sweet (obviously not with sugar). This was to make it more palatable, but it left the participant with quite a "sweet tooth" afterwards. It was sort of one of those unintended consequences.

DIET COKE INGREDIENTS

Amount % RDA Ingredients -- Calories 0 -- Carbonated Water -- High Fructose Corn Syrup -- Caramel Color -- Phosphoric Acid -- Natural Flavors -- Caffeine -- Aspartame (NutraSweet brand)

Potassium Benzoate -- Citric acid -- Fat 0 g 0 % -- Sodium 40 mg 2 % -- Carbohydrates 0 g 0 % -- Sugar 0 g -- Protein --

The list of ingredients indicates "High fruictose corn syrup" and yet the label says "no calories", is there such a thing as no calorie in corn syrup? even if it has no calories from sugar?

This is where are led to believe something not quite so true when in fact the companies circunvent the law with tricky labeling. Buyers beware.

Eloïse

Iam 71 years old, people say i look much younger,i have many med problems, but i do not like my obese body, i avoid functios, etc. i can't walk fast because of arthritis and overweight does not help, i cannot walk or stand more the 10 minutes without my back giving me severe pain and legs get very tired. I am a fun , outgoing, and great personality, but i avoid going places, i don't dance well, but i'd love to, i don't know how anyone can help me, i have no self esteem, and don't think i'll ever be my old self again, but i'd sure like to, i also have no willpower or disipline, well, i think you get the idea of my problems, any feedback. I have asthme, and thyroid problems, take meds , along with other meds. T hanks for letting me sound off.

If we want to lose weight, how is THIS for a role model?

Robby

Ldyblue, welcome my dear. It must be very hard and I sympathize with you. To reverse obesity at this point, you will need lots of willpower. I think I would start with groceries first not to buy food containing high animal fat and sugar. When I have a craving I try to drink a glass of skim milk or a chew on a raw vegetable to take my mind off fattening food while still giving me nutrition. They don't interfere with medication.

I spend an average of 3 hours a day just for going to the store to get groceries, cooking food, eating, and washing up afterwords. Yet my fridge is practically empty all the time because I like everything very fresh. I walk to the store and carry my own groceries most of the time, I climb a flight of stairs to my apartment, and all the cooking and the rest of it is a lot of exercise in one day. I move all the time and come to the computer between chores, not enough chores here and too much computer.

I love to cook and I love to eat.

Looking after my health takes time and energy but I feel it was worth it if I compare my health with other people my age. I am heavier than I ever was at 150 and am watching not to gain more. I can't afford a new wardrobe.

Eloïse

The ingredients listed on a can of Diet Coke made by the Coca Cola company are:

Cabonated water
Caramel color
Aspartame
Phosphoric acid
Potassium benzoate (to protect taste)
Natural flavors
Citric Acid
Caffeine
There is no Fructose (Fruit sugar) in Diet Coke. What it is is lemonade made with carbonated water and the addition of caffeine, and phosphoric acid for flavor.

I drink approximately 2 1/2 cans of Diet Coke a day as a substitute for beer, which at one time I drank much too much of. For me it is a good thing, not a bad one. I don't gain an ounce from drinking it, unlike beer, which is full of sugar and puts weight on people like nobody's business! Believe me, I know.

Mal

Recently I've chosen to leave off caffeine. So, am discovering the healtful benefits of water and, on occasion, some herbal tea. This is an interesting discussion.

Ruth Ann

Hello Ruth Ann, it's a long time since I have seen you. I used to drink tons of coffee, I had to give it up altogether but I still love it, the smell of it is so tempting.

Parlez-vous français? asks the banner today. It's nice to see that.

Eloïse

Yesterday I was at the Raleigh-Durham International Airport to board a plane to Pennsylvania, which, sadly was cancelled because of a gust of 92 mph winds, which damaged the terminal I was in and threw debris on the runways.

While there I looked at least a couple hundred people to see how many were obese. I saw one. She was a woman in her 30's, I suppose, who was grossly obese. I was surprised. I expected to see many more overweight and obese people than I did.

Mal

It's possible to eat a balanced diet that won't put weight on you and shop once a week. I am primarily in a wheelchair, and at the moment I do no real cooking and eat what my daughter brings me in for dinner, since I live in an apartment addition to her house. That's one reason I gained weight. I simply cannot eat the kinds of food she and her partner eat. I managed to convince her of that, so my diet is much more like what I'd cook for myself.

When I did, this is what I ate. I don't like breakfast, so I had a can full of a vitamin drink like SlimFast or Boost in the mid-morning. Ate a salad and one piece of bread for lunch every day. For dinner I had a small lamb chop or baked fish and two green vegetables or a salad. Or I'd have soup I made myself, usually chicken.

I didn't eat dessert, pasta, potato chips, snack crackers, or anything like that, and I don't like much dressing on salads. Occasionally I'd eat some good cheese. For a snack at night I had a bowl of popcorn I made myself with Brewer's Yeast and no butter or salt on it. I like Brewer's (Nutritional) Yeast, and it's full of B vitamins which I need. I didn't ever gain weight and felt great.

P.S. I almost always gain weight when I'm on somebody else's diet (like my daughter's.)

Mal

Ldyblue, your back hurts because of the pull from the weight of your stomach. You need a little bit of strength training that you can do sitting in a chair. Leg lifts, arm lifts, etc. search the internet for exercise for chair bound people. Good Luck searching.

Your medication should not interfere with any simple strength exercise. If you can't lose, at least try to stop gaining. Someone advised you to not diet but make better choices with your food. The easist change, I found, is to use all part-skim or no fat dairy. But don't eat more just because its low fat.

Keep reading these e-mail you are bound to pick up quite a few tips and it may just get you going in the right direction. Dottie

Dottie offers good advice -- strength-building exercises that can be done in your chair. One simple one is to stretch your leg out (heel resting on the floor), tighten your leg muscles and hold for 5 seconds. Do that 5 times, several times a day, for starters.

Have you investigated to see if there are any exercise programs in your community geared to chair-bound seniors? Our local university has a Senior Learning Center. One of their programs picks up seniors who can't drive and takes them to a special exercise program 2 or 3 times a week. Perhaps you will find some similar in your community.

About the 20 minute time lag on the "stop eating" switch, eat slowly. The reason the Italians and the French have less problems with weight gain is HOW they eat, not necessarily what they eat--although that's yummy good too. The Italians and French seldom eat alone. And they have, yipes!, conversations while eating. That's why a meal of 4-5 courses can take several hours. And you never see any of them fanning their mouths with one hand while rolling too hot food around in their mouths. Food at room temperature is NOT a no-no at French and Italian tables.

To slow your own eating down, try putting your fork (and knife, if need be) back down on your plate after taking a bite of food. And, cut only one bite at a time from your portion of the meat. If you eat alone out of necessity, read aloud from a book in between bites. That is similar to conversation. You can prop the book up at the head of your plate for ease of reading.

Drink water. All during the day. Your vital organs will thank you by not wearing out (or getting diseased) so soon.

A new habit takes several weeks to form. Old habits, even when they are finally gotten rid of, linger in the memory, filed under "good", for a lifetime. (^;^)

Howzat

After a year and 8 months of going to an exercise program and eating mostly 1200 cal. per day of meat or other protein plus vegetables cooked and in salads and fruits lots of dairy, I am down I am down four dress sizes and 40 lbs.

I had a mastectomy three weeks ago and am recovering nicely and have lost a little more weight during this time. I am restricted to doing only the stretching and flexibility exercises my MD gave me so cant go to Curves right now and do hope I wont gain with the change in activity. I am valiantly trying to stick to the portions I have grown use too but the after effects of surgery have me quite hungry. My friends in my survivor's group all say to eat more now and forget about gaining but I sure am on the fence about that still I want to heal well and at 77 I know I need the nutrition. Faith

Mal, so sorry that you couldn't fly to see your grand children, it must be so frustrating for you after counting on it. I only wish I had your willpower, I think you will outlive us all.

Today I baked apple pies for the family. Of course I will eat a piece too, I couldn't resist it. This month I made a big batch of jam and ketchup to give to my family at Christmas, but it would too much torture for me not to have any.

Howzat, true the French eat slowly and talk all the time, the wine helps. I was at a wedding in France the last time I was there and the wine just flowed like a fountain during the 4-hours banquet. I don't know how come they were not all drunk, but perhaps many were very used to it not to say alcoholic. The food was fabulous.

Faith, I hope you feel a little better after that ordeal.

Obesity is on the front page of our local paper today and they mention that a problem of this magnitude worldwide could also be attributed to genetic mutation and scientists are looking into some environmental problems that could be causing this phenomenon.

Eloïse

Are you obese, or are you overweight? Find out by clicking the link below. I came out as overweight, and know exactly what I must do.

Calculate your Body Mass Index

That's a very good link, Mal. I came out 15-20 pounds overweight. I have already stated publicly that when I arrive at the Books at the Beach Bash in South Carolina in January, I will be the proper weight.

Robby

Meeeeee toooooo Mal. Oh! no. I didn't know. What are we going to do? I can't stop cooking! and eating! but I can cut my portions in half, and stop baking pies.

I don't understand how they "think" that they know as they don't know if we have small or large bones and bones do weigh up. Doctors go by the chart with No thought on the weight of the bones, think on it. They say that I am over weight, I am happy with my weight as it is and that is what counts to me.

Nuts as I was going to ask you to bring one of your homade pies to the SC gathering. Frown.

How I have lost my 44lbs in 6mths and now at 8mths keeping it off is that I don't eat any manufactured food. I cook from scratch. I don't stint myself. I have a cupcake (no icing) every day with coffee and a small muffin after breakfast ( savory not sweet). I bake all my own treats and use olive oil instead of butter and cut the sugar to half of what the recipe says. I have no sugar in my hot drinks or on my cereal. I have trim milk in my tea and buy lean meats ( we call them trim meats here they cut all the fat off before you buy it) I rarely eat potatos but have pasta or rice once a week as I like both of them. I eat a whole grain cereal with home made plain unsweetened yoghurt for breakfast and for lunch I have a salad ( chicken or tuna) or home made soup. I still have the odd candy. I buy giant marshmallows and have one or two with coffee sometimes and I eat peanuts now and again too as a snack. I don't ever drink fizzy drinks.

Yesterday I had a trendy hair cut at my hairdressers insistence and I do feel good about myself. However I had eating problems for years so I have to be careful I do not see myself as fat all the time. I was very very slim for many years but saw only a fat person in the mirror. I got out some old photos the other day and that person was certainly not a fat person. I have set a goal weight that does not make me look haggard and I am happy with that. Some of my friends are stick thin and they look wrinkled and haggard and older than they are. I think one has to be realistic and not want to be like a fashion model. I do not weigh myself, my doctor does that, as its best for me not to have scales in the house. I judge my weight by the fit of my clothes.

I keep a notebook and use the weightwatchers system - that way I don't have to deprive myself of anything as long as I stick to the points total I need to maintain my weight.

I don't use the TV remote - keep on my feet- do my own housework and do as much walking in a day as I can manage just in the course of my business and chores. I go shopping every other day for fresh food. I make sure I eat at least 5 fruit and veg a day but its likely I eat more like 9. I always eat at least three pieces of fruit and the rest is vegetables.

Losing weight has given me much more energy and flexibility. After all I was carrying a 40lb sack of potatos round with me everywhere I went LOL!

Many people with the health problem I have say they cannot lose weight because they can't walk for miles but I have proved it can be done without violent exercise and without being hungry.

If you think you don't overeat I suggest you write down everything you eat in a notebook and then use the w/w count for points and I bet you will like me find you had been eating twice what you needed to eat. Even eating too much healthy food will contribute to weight gain.

I think that fast foods and manufactured convenience foods are the No 1 cause of obesity.

Carolyn

On Page 58 of the Nat. Geo Mag. we can visualize the ideal portion sizes.

A deck of cards = A steak

A bar of Dove soap = burrito

A computer mouse = pasta

A light bulb = potato

A dice = butter

A baseball = fruit

"Portion sizes based on recommendations from the American Dietetic Association and Weight Watchers International."

Then the steak I order at a Steak House is much too large, so is pasta, so is butter.

On page 59, you get the real calorie count.

A 4.3 ounce Burger at Burger King, = 310 calories.

A large fries at McDonald's = 610 calories.

Movie popcorn, 21 cups (buttered) = 1,700 calories.

Portions have increased in restaurants dramatically and people eat out more.

Eloïse

One of the things I forgot to mention is I gave up (almost) coffee (1 cup) and diet soda (1 can). I drink water and milk (skim).

I have my Diabetic A1C at 5.5 (normal for most people) and am losing weight still.

Eloise our steaks are thinner than the ones served in the US and they are much smaller. I am giggling at one man who wanted to insult me in the political discussions he told me we sold mean tiny steaks! LOL. I know our portions in the average restaurant are smaller than USA portions. However people still go out and eat half a pizza. Well half a pizza is 7 or more w/w points per slice or even more depending on the topping. As my daily total is 20 you can imagine if I ate two slices of pizza for dinner I would go over my points for the day. I do not eat fast food pizza and have not made one for about 6mths. My naughty treat is a few oven fries the heart tick ones with a salad and a one egg omelette. Thats my fast food. The thinner the fry the more fat content so Macs fries are very fattening and besides that have preservatives ( a sulfite)in them. The oven bake heart tick ones are very big fries and only contain the canola oil they have been sprayed with in the precooking. There is no other additive. You have to watch the frozen fries as many of them do have additives.

A tip I learnt is that a 9" plate is the best sized plate to serve your dinner on. You get a better idea of what size portion to serve. Remember you can eat as much as you like of fresh vegs except potato and avocado without piling on the weight. Luckily I love vegs even if they are just served plain - steamed or microwaved.

I use an Imperial cup of cooked pasta as my serving size which is 3 w/w points and if I have a vegetarian sauce its a low point meal. I love making just a simple mushroom sauce with portobello mushrooms with fresh basil. Serve with a small salad in a salad bowl on the side. I have to admit I just adore pasta.

Carolyn

I keep forgetting to say I am doing water excercise. Mine is not deep water - but I stay in the deepest 4'6" (I am 5').

Kiwi thanks for all the information and Mal thanks for the link it has been very helpful. The information on this site is very useful for me.

What a fabulous group we have here. It is so good to be able to talk openly and not feel pressured about something that is so difficult to face. We are dealing with our own self-image along with health problems not easily dealt with even when we consult our physician. Obesity is not like another health problem, it is poorly understood and obviously poorly treated because about 30% of the people in America are obese.

I want to thank everyone for being so gentle and kind toward each other. We can glean from the posts many things that we can apply to our own lives in the privacy of our home. We can continue to learn, if not from official channels, then from each other or wherever help is offered. It is up to us to choose our own actions.

Eloïse

Francy Lou, wonderful. I am so happy for you, how do you feel, I mean do you feel more energetic?

Carolyn, I think your weight control system is the best. I would like to try it myself even if I used to know what the W/W point system was I have forgotten it. Is it possible to give us a link to this because we could all benefit from that seeing the wonderful result it has brought you. I love pasta too and have it often, but I eat more than one cupful though. I didn’t know that about fries, if they are thin they are high in calories and the thick ones don’t have as much.

I have used a smaller plate lately and by jotting down every little bit of food I eat, I can’t lie to myself and say: “I am hungry and I will eat just a little and it won’t show”, but it does show. When you have all the nutrition allowed you are not hungry. My diabetic sister uses that point system and she has several illnesses that require medication, diabetes, thyroid gland removed, high blood pressure, a heart condition etc. etc. but she is also very active and exercises regularly.

Perhaps those who are obese can’t exercise, but they can use the point system at first and mark down everything they eat so that they know how many calories they have left. They could set a realistic goal and stick to it 90% of the time.

Cooking from scratch is a great activity, it’s good for you on all counts.

Eloïse

I eat whatever I like and can due to allergies there are some that I love but cannot. Eating slowly is the secret for me. I have come to a plato with my weight and am happy with it if there is No more loss of weight. Look out SC here I come if the weather is to cold I shall wear my bathing suit in doors for all to see as I am a Leo born July 30th I think, and ready to roll, Smile.

My co-odinator Karen along with someone who has "Captured" my heart has

Eloise you have to pay for w/w normally here you can't get much information without joining. My daughter gave me her old books when she opted out of w/w. She thought it was Ok as she had paid a lot of money and then left the program. You can join on line and get all the books etc but its not cheap here I don't know what it is over there. My program is not the latest one but the one before the latest program but it worked for me. Do you know anyone who will lend you their old points counters etc. I kind of did my own thing the first 6 weeks which was - no sugar - no spreads like butter or margerine and only half slice bread with lunch. No bread with dinner and no potatos. No cookies etc. I notice that pumpkin is very popular now in the stores due to the Atkins diet and the South Beach diet. I have got to really like it as a potato substitute with dinner. I do eat a potato ( baked) about once a fortnight but really I don't miss it. Maybe you could ask the kids to sponsor you to w/w for a birthday or Christmas present. I guess its better to have a support counsellor than to do it alone like I did.

Carolyn

To find w/w you just put weightwatchers in your search engine and the American one will come up for you.

Some 30 posts had accumulated since I was here last - a lot of catching up to do. Good to see CAROLYN. Congratulations to you and all who have lost weight.

I have yet to take the test in MAL's link, so I don't know whether answers are provided. Are these relatively new standards? Is there an explanation of what makes a person "overweight" as opposed to "obese"?

MAL, I go to the grocery store regularly, to the mall rarely. However, I find that the majority of the people in either place are "generously-proportioned", which is, of course, a euphemism. They are simply overweight. Then I glance at the children and they are more often than not the spitting image of their overweight/obese parents.

I drink tea in the morning and in the afternoon. The occasional cup of coffee I brew is good, and stronger than is customary, and I take it with half and half, yes I do. I haven't had soft drinks in my house for many years and never craved one. If Coca Cola and Pepsi depended on me, they'd long be out of business.

What I do have on hand is a comfortable supply of large bottles of Poland Spring or Anirondack sparkling water. I don't like the taste of their flavored versions. I squeeze my own lemons, purchased in a small market that sells them for half (!) the price supermarkets charge, and use a few drops in every glass.

The small market with the much cheaper lemons has a wonderful variety of fresh fruit and vegetables, and I go there every other day. I eat small portions several times a day but do not adhere to any specific regimen. Also, I am on several medications.

Progressive arthritis and a new hip and knee have put severe limits on my mobility; so exercise, aerobics (mercy!) and walking are definitely out. Water exercises would be absolutely ideal, and I encourage anyone who has access to facilities that offer them to take advantage.

Thank you, Eloïse, for making this frank exchange possible in so important a matter.

A special hello to GINGEE!

Yes, I really miss the water excercise if I miss a day.

TRAUDE, there is no test on the page I linked. You enter your height and your weight, and your Body Mass Index is calculated. This page and others linked to it are owned and maintained by the National Institute of Health, and all calculations are based on determinations made there.

When I had a car and could drive, I went to the supermarket every day, but not to buy food. It's as large as a football field, and I went there to walk while I pushed a grocery cart. I called it my "Exercise Palace", and I do miss being able to go there daily now.

Mal

Mal, I tried your link and it is quick and easy. Thank you. When we have extremely bad weather here and I have to get out at all cost, I always go to a large Mall even if I have nothing to buy. It is pleasant to just be walking, at least I am moving instead of staying at home.

Why do you think there is such a difference between obesity in America and a lack of obesity in certain European countries?

I can't believe it is only because we love fast foods and are compulsive eaters that we have become obese. It is impossible that one third of all the people here could possibly have the same harmful eating habits. Something else is wrong. Could it be that a malfunction of the organs in the body has developed and causes extreme weight gain?

Is there no solution? Are governments unwilling or unable to do something about it. It is costing us billions in taxes, should it not be governments responsibility to manage tax money properly?

Should laws be passed about advertising and about food labeling? If a law was passed, for instance, and we order a big hamburger, large fries and a large cola soft drink, the restaurants would have to mark on the bill, or somewhere, the amount of calories that hamburger contains, including a warning that this could be detrimental to our health, would that help?

Éloïse

Eloise--I think there are many factors leading to obesity in the USA. One is the abundance of fast food places; another is our rush culture where both parents in a family are working and it is too much to prepare good meals for dinner. Another is the crazy schedules people have today, kids with practices during what would be dinner time, people working late hours--all contributing to grabbing food on the go and not paying any attention to what is consumed. I also think we walk less than people in other countries. We sit at desks, computer stations, more than other people.

Deems, I think you have a good point about the availability of fast foods and the crazy schedules people have now as leading causes of obesity. When I think back to when i was a kid and a young person, fat people stood out. Maybe a gandmother and some older aunts were heavy, but you didn't see many fat kids and teenagers. Was that because of properly proportioned meals, more attention paid to balanced diets?

MaryZ and FrancyLou, our hospital's new Fitness Facility opens next week and I can't wait -- a 4 lane lap pool, water exercise pool, a therapy pool, and a hot tub. A day hasn't gone by since I signed up in June that I wished it was open then -- hopefully will have more access than at the school/city pool. And Mary, they will be offering deep water aerobics. That sounds like just what I want.

That's wonderful news, pedln. I'll look forward to hearing what you think of it. Our pool was closed today - and may be through Wednesday. I hate that! I had to do my exercising walking through Wal-Mart doing my shopping today. (Well, it is a huge store!)

One factor in our (collective) weight gain is our more sedentary life style. Our eating genes are programmed to a much larger diet, and one with lots more salt and fat - all designed at a time when humans didn't know when their next meal would be coming. And they had to walk everywhere and do hard manual labor. Very few of us work that hard at anything any more, but the body is still telling us that we need all those calories. So we consume them.

Also, our body is programmed to crave lots of food anytime we're deprived of adequate nourishment. That's why "dieting" doesn't work. Our body thinks it's being starved, so it wants even more food. It takes a little bit of everything to lose weight - less intake and more exercise. Damn! I wish it weren't so simple - and so hard!

Frankly, I'm at peace with my weight and exercise amounts, even though I would like to be smaller to help control the blood pressure and arthritis. It's just something that I have to deal with.

I don't want to hurt anyones feelings but one of the reasons obesity may be so prevalent is that the majority of the low priced eateries serve very unhealthy foods in too large a proportion. This was my sons impression when he was touring the US. There was not enough vegetable choices he felt.

I can say from my experience that also the bakery chains like Dunkin donuts have far too much sugar in their products. For instance they are so sweet to my palate I cannot eat them. When I make an American recipe I halve the sugar content and sometimes take two thirds of the sugar out the recipe. This may be why there is a problem.

In our country I also have to say that since the advent of the Pizza fast food companies and chains like Macs, Burger King and Wendys that obesity has skyrocketed in our country. I have never seen so many fat kids at an early age. This combined with too much TV watching has a lot to do with obesity in the very young.

I think we just have to make sure our little ones are fed good home cooked food so they get a taste for it. My kids ate anything I cooked because they were given it to sample from a very early age.Too many kids are picky and there is too much junk food in their parents pantries. I say "Down with junk food - its killing us!"

Carolyn

I do agree with you, Carolyn, about the fast food - there is way too much fat, salt, and sugar. And, it is marketed directly at children, so they will grow up with those tastes. It's the same thing with children's dry cereals - all that added sugar.

Pedln, Marial, That is so cool. Now that really urges me to go to a pool and exercise there. What is wrong with me, there are several indoor pools just close by and I am still not going, but I started to do workouts, not like the ones you see on television mind you, it’s way too strenuous for me, but some that are adapted for people my age and my ability. We will see what happens in a couple of months. I know I won’t loose weight, I never do with exercises, but I will feel better, more loose and strong.

I know however that when one is obese, they are not very capable to either go to gym class, or even exercise, especially when arthritis and other health problems prevent them. There is still hope. On of the things I wanted to talk about is how to educate the mouth, in other words the taste buds to behave Hahahahaha.

We are so used to tasting sweets it becomes a NEED. I am sorry to give you bad news. In order to get over any addiction we have to stop having what we crave for. I know it’s hard, as hard as it is giving up smoking, drinking, drugs, but I guarantee you that if nothing sweet enters your mouth, in a month, you don’t even like it any more. There will be extreme discomfort, headaches and crankiness as the body is getting rid of the toxins and you CANNOT substitute it with any artificial sweetener either or it will not work. You have to get your mouth used to go without sugar. Start with that.

Drug rehabilitation is painful psychologically as well as physically. To compensate I think I would have something on hand to chew on, but that has to be something to kill the hunger pangs too, cheese, nuts or some raw vegetable. Ignore the craving. Don’t get on the scale as if IT will be good to you, at first it will not, the clothes become looser but the scales don’t show a weight loss and after a week or two, all of a sudden the scales show an improvement. I wouldn’t weigh myself every day it is more frustration than help, like Carolyn said.

Éloïse

My kids are going to give me the beginners Pilates video tape for Christmas. I think I could do many of the exercises on that. As I have one wonky knee there are some I will not be able to do. I should also point out that my knee is much less painful since I lost weight. Get the weight off those arthritic joints guys!

The stretch series are good too for older people. I have not got any of those tapes but I am told they are extremely good.

I don't think treats should be cut out ones diet altogether but I cut sugar out completely for 6 weeks. I have never liked sugar on my cereals or in my drinks. I would love to buy hot chocolate but they all have added sugar so I buy cocoa powder and make my own drink minus sugar. The ready made chocolate drink powder is so sweet it makes me feel sick. I still have my chocolate muffins now and again but as I said I have cut the sugar content right down. Now I could not eat most manufactured cakes at all as they are far too sweet for my palate. I make all of my own treats to my own taste.

Carolyn

On your link there is also a place to click and you can enter total calories you want per day and then figure out what to eat for that amount and they calculate it for you. Anyway, I have been following that since you posted the link. It is so easy for me and then I print it off and eat what's on the list. Thank you again, I feel better already.

Here is Mal's LINK and I urge everyone who is serious about losing weight and want to know EVERYTHING about the calories they had and the calories they WANT to have per day.

I will ask to have the link put up in the heading. Many thanks again Mal.

Eloïse

ANNIE: I found the page with the Menu Planner on it. However, even reading the instructions, I couldn't get it to give me a menu. How do you make it work?

Marjorie...I'm not Annie, but make your selections for what you'd like to eat, after choosing the meal you wish to make a menu for.

You're basically making your own menu...this is telling you how many calories, carbs, etc. you're getting for what you choose.

Select a serving or two or whatever of fruit, etc. and the number of calories will appear and deduct from your total as well. The screen clicks off momentarily each time you select...for example for 1oz roast beef, I selected 3 servings to equal 3 oz and it gave me the calories for that 3 oz.

That part is there on the right.

jane

Thanks JANE. I will go try it now.

P.S. That worked. I was interested in what the numbers looked like for how I eat now.

The Body Mass Index and Menu Planner links are in the heading.

Thank you Marjorie, and look at what we find digging further in Mal's link about assessing the risk of overweight. I took the Quiz and only got one good answer out of some 10 or 12 questions asked. It shows how little I know about calories in a portion and how much the portions have increased in the last 20 years.

PORTION DISTORTION

Eloïse

I bought an exercise tape and have been doing them daily. I thought I was quite fit if I can climb 2 flights of stairs without puffing, and walk a few miles, but those exercises are a challenge and when I started I could only do half of them. Now I can do a bit more. But they are unsuitable for a person very overweight.

What about if I weighed over 200 pounds? I don't think I could do them at all because muscles tend to diminish as we age and if we are overweight, fat has replaced those muscles. In other words, even if heavy set Seniors appear to have strong muscles, in reality they don't. I have read that it takes twice as much exercise for the elderly to get half the results. What's more, it requires less calories than a younger person to lose the same amount of weight.

Community centers for Seniors have exercise programs, but if someone is obese and cannot manage to go to them, are there video tapes they can purchase? I found this one, but it requires strength and stamina as you lie on the floor and lift arms, legs, arch the back and twist, so it would not be suitable for everybody.

We must remember that an obese person has a hard time even to get up off a chair most of the time but moving around is as important as watching what we eat. Movement helps unlock arthritic joints and releases muscles in the lower back.

After an exercise program in the morning, we feel less tired and feel much stronger.

Eloïse

That menu planner is great. I tried a bogus menu for the day, with what I know I should eat, and ended up with just under 1200 calories, which even included my before dinner glass of red wine.

Now, my searching activity for the day, is to find a CD-Rom that will let me save menus on my hard drive, and that will also allow me to add and edit food items -- such as 1/2 can Progresso Lentil soup, and that will include those horrible things like 1/2 C chocolate ice cream, 1/6 Apple Pie.

What was really a shocker in the menu planner was when i clicked on salmon and the amount given was one oz. Needless to say, I had to multiply.

This is where w/w is so much easier. For instance half a small can salmon is 2 points. I used to calorie count but the weight watchers system is so much simpler. Once you are familiar with it you hardly ever need to refer to the book as the point values stick in your memory. I eat only fresh foods so its really easy for me to remember all the values. I still recommend fresh food only. Its horrified me how many so called health foods have harmful additives when you read the labels.

Carolyn

PEDLN, you have persuaded me to keep track of what I eat and I am keeping tab of the calories in a daily diary. A lot of things I love will have to go by the way side. I don't have Mal's will power, but I will try and shed 10 pounds before I go to the Isle of Palms. That should put me into the normal weight range of 140 pounds.

Lurkers, please tell us about any problems you have, it is always good to share and we all need to help each other.

Does anyone here have glucometer? My twins both have one as they take a blood test before every meal to see how much insulin they have to take. I have always felt that that little machine is the best thing to test our blood sugar. I read in Googles that people who are at high risk of diabetes should test their blood sugar because it is a good indication of how well the pancreas is doing

CAROLYN, I have searched Google to see if I could find the point system but I have not found it yet, I believe it is the same system as diabetics use if I remember when my daughter became diabetic at the age of 7. As you say it becomes automatic and you always know what portions you need not to exceed your calories goal.

That is what I didn't want to do to lose weight, count calories, but my sister doesn't have to count any more, she just knows it by heart and it became like a second nature.

Eloïse

Gustatory system The gustatory system is the sensory system that uses taste buds (or lingual papillae) on the upper surface of the tongue to provide information about the taste of food being eaten.

In humans, the sense of taste is conveyed via three of the twelve cranial nerves. The facial nerve (VII) carries taste sensations from the anterior two thirds of the tongue, the glossopharyngeal nerve (IX) carries taste sensations from the posterior one third of the tongue while a branch of the vagus nerve (X) carries some taste sensations from the back of the oral cavity.

Word of the Day for Monday January 12, 2004 gustatory \GUS-tuh-tor-ee\, adjective: Of or pertaining to the sense of taste.

In a land of ice and chains and endemic suffering, caviar provided gustatory salvation from grief and black days, a sensual escape from temporal woes. --Jeffrey Tayler, "The Caviar Thugs," The Atlantic, June 2001

Why . . . would something that provides such gustatory pleasure turn out to be supposedly the worst thing you could ever eat? --Richard Turner, "The Trendy Diet That Sizzles," Newsweek, September 6, 1999

Instead I seemed to be drawn to countries with the worst food imaginable, places like Turkistan and Africa, where every day you woke up hoping you could avoid gustatory terror but knowing that before you slept again, horrible things would be going inside your mouth. The best strategy was simply to try to eat as little as possible. But I seemed cursed by an ever hopeful palate. "Termites? Termite larva? Could be interesting. I'll try a handful." This was never a good idea. --Stuart Stevens, Feeding Frenzy

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Gustatory derives from Latin gustatus, "taste," from gustare, "to taste, to take a little of." Other words that have the same root include disgust and gusto ("vigorous and enthusiastic enjoyment").

Dictionary.com Entry and Pronunciation for gustatory

Noun 1. gustatory sensation - the sensation that results when taste buds in the tongue and throat convey information about the chemical composition of a soluble stimulus; "the candy left him with a bad taste"; "the melon had a delicious taste" gustatory perception, taste, taste perception, taste sensation sensation, sense datum, sense experience, sense impression - an unelaborated elementary awareness of stimulation; "a sensation of touch" sapidity, savor, savour, tang, flavor, smack, flavour, relish - the taste experience when a savoury condiment is taken into the mouth sugariness, sweetness, sweet - the taste experience when sugar dissolves in the mouth sourness, tartness, sour - the taste experience when vinegar or lemon juice is taken into the mouth bitter, bitterness - the taste experience when quinine or coffee is taken into the mouth salinity, saltiness, salt - the taste experience when salt is taken into the mouth astringence, astringency - a sharp astringent taste; the taste experience when a substance causes the mouth to pucker finish - (wine tasting) the taste of a wine on the back of the tongue (as it is swallowed); "the wine has a nutty flavor and a pleasant finish"

tatory neural responses in preweanling mice.

Ninomiya Y, Tanimukai T, Yoshida S, Funakoshi M.

Department of Oral Physiology, Asahi University School of Dentistry, Gifu Japan.

Taste sensitivity of preweanling mice was studied by examining responses of the chorda tympani (CT) and glossopharyngeal (GL) nerves to various taste stimuli, and was compared to that of adult mice. In mice of 7-10 days of age, comparing to that of the CT nerve, threshold of the GL nerve for monosodium l-glutamate (MSG) was low, but those for sucrose and NaCl were high. Sensitivities to HCl and quinine-HCl were similar between the CT and GL nerves, although that to quinine-HCl was larger in the GL nerve than in the CT nerve in adult mice. Enhancement of MSG responses by addition of GMP was observed in the CT nerve but not in the GL nerve in this age group. In mice of 8-16 weeks of age, threshold of the GL nerve for MSG became higher but that for NaCl became lower. Enhancement of MSG responses by addition of GMP appeared also in the GL nerve. Inhibition of NaCl responses by amiloride was observed in the CT nerve. These results suggest that, in mice, the GL nerve is important taste input for umami substances especially during the preweanling period, whereas the CT nerve is for sweet and salty substances. Properties of umami and salt receptor systems change during the postweanling period.

PMID: 1679561 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Biology of the Gustatory System

We want to understand how the central gustatory (taste) system works. Currently, there are two avenues of investigation that we are using to study the brainstem areas that process taste information in rats:

A neuroanatomical approach where we identify neurotransmitters and receptors present in taste pathways

A behavioral approach where we are defining the brain regions involved in specific oromotor behaviors.

Both of the projects have been funded by the National Science Foundation. These projects are detailed below.

Neuroanantomy of the Gustatory System:

Sensory information is detected by special sensors located throughout the body. It is the job of the nervous system to process this information thereby identifying the salient cues, integrating this information with other inputs and producing an appropriate physiological or behavioral response. The central nervous system is specifically 'wired' to accomplish these objectives. For the past several years, my research has focused on the gustatory (taste) system. Gustatory information from the tongue and oral cavity is processed in several CNS regions before reaching the gustatory cortex where perception occurs. These regions include, in order, the nucleus of the solitary tract in the medulla (NST; Torvik, '56), the parabrachial nucleus (PBN) in the pons (Norgren, '78) and the thalamus (Saper and Loewy, '80). Other projections necessary for eating (i.e. swallowing and salivation), and learned taste-related behaviors (Norgren, '78) terminate in brainstem motor nuclei and "higher-order" subcortical centers, respectively.

General Research Goals:

Previous studies have demonstrated, and it is generally accepted in the field, that the projection from the NST to the PBN is ipsilateral (Norgren, '78; Travers, '88; Whitehead, '90). That is, that neurons in each NST are only connected with PBN neurons on the same side of the brain. Over the past 2 years, several Stetson students and I have obtained data demonstrating that part of this projection is contralateral, that is it crosses to the other side of the brain (King and Murphy, '94; Murphy et al., '95, Williams et al., 1996). This would mean that the NST-PBN connection is bilateral (each NST projects to both PBN). If this is, in fact, true it will change the current perception of how the brain processes taste information. Therefore, our current research goals are:

to substantiate that the projection from the NST to the PBN is bilateral.

to identify the neuron populations in the NST which project to the contralateral PBN.

to determine which neurotransmitters are present within these neurons

Techniques Used:

Neural Tract Tracing: Neural tracers such as biotinylated dextran, horseradish peroxidase and the fluorescent compound DiI, are stereotaxically injected into brain tissue to identify neural connections between the different parts of the gustatory system.

Immunohistochemistry: Antibodies and histochemical techniques are used to identify cells which contain specific neurotransmitters like substance P, GABA and glutamate and their receptors.

NSF FUNDED PROJECT:

Dr. King was awarded a research grant from the National Science Foundation (IBN-9603184) to fund a project entitled "Anatomy and Neurochemistry

Washington Post's "Lean Plate Club" was in my email box this afternoon, so I've been browsing. The site below will link you to an American Heart Association explanation of various fats, oils, cholesteral. Take note that coconut oil is one plant with saturated fats. Scroll down for a good explanatin of trans-fatty acids.

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=532

I have recently taken all salt from food I prepare . Also I have eliminated fried foods from food I prepare. If you really and truly wish to change your eating habits try eating bland food without being fried and without salt. Believe me meal time will no longer be your favorite time of day. I do occasionally eat out and that is a real treat but I have learned that the reason the world is so fat now is the fabulous flavors we now have. Omit them and weight loss is not so difficult.

Olimp, glad to see you. Thank you for the taste buds definition. That's where it all begins doesn't it? To satisfy our taste buds. I was wondering how caviar tastes like. I think I ate red caviar once but didn't find it extraordinaire. Perhaps because I didn't have it often enough where I lived. HaHaHaHa. I don't think we can gain weight eating caviar though.

Pedln, Coconut oil is good for the skin, I never tasted it in a salad, I prefer to stay with good ole olive oil thanks.

Cshel, why take away all the salt? I guess because it rises blood pressure, no? Also it makes you retain water. But you are right, when I eat food I love I gain weight. Someone said to me once, if you love it, that is what is making you sick. Oh dear.

Eloïse

Really, I havn't used salt in years and I think it allows one to get the real taste of what one is eating. It is also my experience that when one watches food intake, food not previously liked all that much tastes wonderful. For instance I do not like apples all that much, but when moderating food intake, they taste wonderful too me.

I am presently drooping kilo's prior to surgery, with some success and have appreciated advice here. I so agree with Carolyn about starting from scratch. I also choose only the best quality food so that meal time becomes really enjoyable. We also have wine with our meal, which makes it more of an occasion.

My husband is a diabetic, and the food suitable for diabetics seems to me to be most helpful in weight loss as well.

Well done here Eloise.

Anneo

Our son (ho just left home)had changed his diet gradually. He decided that he is lactose intolerant, so he switched to soy products first. From there he cut out sugars and then began using only olive oil. He eats meat and fish, lots of vegetables, herb teas and green tea. Potatoes, but no oil or butter. Fruit. He bought a juicer and made a lot of juices and "smoothees" with the yogurt or soy milk.

My husband and I started to eat much of the same.

What I noticed is that he seemed to feel better, less complaints about his stomach and about feeling bloated.

I cut down on sugars, but didn't cut out the dairy (mostly yogurt and some cheese for me. I don't watch my weight, so it's mostly just the healthy choice. My husband just goes along with it - I think that he feels better when he eats this way, but not sure he would admit it.

However, what I did notice is that it can be expensive to eat that way. We cut out convenience foods, sweets, etc. But the whole grain breads, soy foods, extra fruits and vegetables, good potatoes, etc. did come at a price. At the same time, I was working on a project with a nutritionist to show that $10 per month in food stamps (the minimum that eligible seniors get) is worth it to apply. We came up with a list of healthy foods to buy for $10, and it is a nice bag of groceries. However, another person bought a lot more for the $10, thinks like macaronic and cheese mixes, canned vegetables, fruit drinks, salty canned soups, etc. Add in the fact that sometimes eating healthy can mean extra time and effort shopping and cooking, and I can understand why some folks don't bother.

N

http://www.healthdiscovery.net/links/one_point_list.htm is the one you were looking for I believe.

Many young people have never tasted fresh home cooking like us farmers have, what a shame but that seems to be the way of the future, but I hope Not.

Food is very expensive here. It costs me $80 per week to feed my two tiny dogs and myself with healthy food. There is no luxury items in this price just meat fruit vegs milk my gluten free flour and baking mix, whole grain rice flakes, yoghurt starter etc. Junk food is much cheaper and always on special. I spend about $20 a week on non food items such as cleaning products toiletries and soap powders. this morning I bought golden kiwifruit on special and NZ Rose apples, the chicken thighs and some lean hamburger to cook up for the dogs with vegs and rice. I don't eat a lot of red meat. As my iron levels are borderline low I need to eat more than I did.

We have to eat some salt here as our soil is lacking in iodine which translates into a lack of iodine in our diet. The low salt diet is causing goitre I was reading recently. Its also very humid so we perspire a lot in summer and get dehydrated easily.

Today I had chicken salad for lunch. The chicken was a chicken thigh which I cooked in my non stick frypan and chopped off the bone for the salad. No skin on the thigh when I cooked it.

I have no idea what I will have for dinner I really don't need to have more meat so maybe it will be just vegetables (hot) I am still thinking about it. I did 3 hrs work for my son this morning on the PC so I am about to sit down and have a bit of a rest.

Carolyn

Hi! Anneo, I am glad to see you. I didn’t know you were there in the shadows. Hahaha. I hope the surgery will go well and you will recover quickly. Regarding cooking from scratch, I know it takes more time to prepare meals, but when we are doing that, we are shedding weight, and not only that, but we are preventing problems down the road and fresh food gives more nutrition than packaged food. As far as the cost is concerned, I don’t always buy biological, but try to buy as fresh as possible. I seldom go to Natural Food stores unless I want special herb teas, and I often go to ethnic grocery stores, we have an Arab store nearby, they sell cheaper in bulk.

It would not be economical to gain weight in eating cheaper food. A cereal box is expensive and it contains mostly sugar, the rest of it is advertised as “healthy” because it contains minute amounts of grain, none of which is whole grain, perhaps except oats, but so little is left after the additives that nothing remains in your bow except calories. Watch out for sugar it is a villain that we love, but it does not love us.

Nlhome, I am encouraged by the fact that in spite of my original dislike of tofu, (soy) I make myself eat some that I integrate in what I cook. It is so high in protein, the thing that kills your cravings, that even if it very cheap, it can be well prepared. We have to stop doing everything fast and easy. My wish to live to 100, God willing, makes me want to put in a little effort and if I have to exercise and watch everything I eat to stay just as I am now, I will do it.

Éloïse

Roseda, thanks for the HealthDiscovery site. It has a lot to offer. Now, how many points a day does Weight Watchers recommend?

I will ask Marjorie to put Roseda's link in the heading as we need to refer to it often as our perception of a serving is so far removed from what we should have in order to lose weight.

http://www.healthdiscovery.net/links/one_point_list.htm

Pedln, W/W are afraid that the public knowing the point system will prevent many from joining, but we are smart enough to figure it out. A portion of steak should be not larger than the size of a deck of cards.

Did you see how much beans make one point? a half cup. The one that really depressed me is something I love, spaghetti, a large portion with sauce has about one thousand calories, almost my whole day's count.

Coffee beans, the Little devils don't we love it?

Eloïse

We don't have to count points or weigh our food to lose weight. All we have to do is eat less!

If you eat three slices of bread a day, eat 1 1/2.

Don't eat between meals.

Eat more vegetables, steamed or raw. Put a flavored seasoning salt or some other dry seasoning on them, and don't put butter on them.

Eat fewer potatoes and noodles and less pasta. Cut down on things that have starch in them.

Most of us eat too much meat. Cut down on meat meals. Substitute baked fish, eggs, cheese or nuts for protein.

Don't eat lunch meat from the deli.

Don't eat peanut butter, or if you do, eat no more than a scant tablespoonful.

Use vinegar and a couple of teaspoons of olive oil or other vegetable oil instead of mayonnaise.

Cut out condiments like ketchup that add calories to your meal. Use lemon juice instead.

Eat baked French fries instead of fried ones. Cut the fries. Put them on a baking sheet, brush with oil and bake until brown in a moderate oven. Count the number of fries you put on your plate, and limit your serving to four or five.

Cut way down on butter and margarine, or eliminate them from your diet. Roast garlic in the oven and put that on your bread, or brush it lightly with olive oil.

Don't eat desserts.

Stay away from creamed foods and creamed soup. Don't put sauces like Hollandaise or cheese sauce on your vegetables.

Eat plain marinara sauce instead of meat sauce, which can be full of fat.

Don't eat gravy!

Learn to love salads. Don't put dressing on them before you serve them; put it on your individual portion at the table

If you must have an evening snack, eat an apple, or a Wasa Brod cracker, or Rye Crisp.

Don't drink cappuccino, latte, milkshakes, sugared soft drinks or ice cream.

Baked beans are fattening. Stay away from them.

Stew a chicken with "the Trinity" -- celery, carrots and onions. Skin the chicken after it's cooked and use that for meals. Use the broth for soup stock. Add fresh or no salt canned or frozen vegetables and herbs, or rice, there's a nourishing soup.

Don't eat candy; eat one small serving of dried fruit instead.

Use non-fat dried milk in your coffee or tea.

Eat low salt tuna canned in water and served with a vinaigrette dressing or lemon juice.

Eat only open face sandwiches with one slice of bread.

There's a whole lot more I can think of, but this is a start toward a low carbohydrate, low fat diet that's bound to make you lose weight.

Mal

All good ideas, Mal - I'd make one amendment to your chicken stock. I put all the leavings from chicken (skin, bones, everything) in a pot, along with a stalk of celery (with leaves), some onion (including the skin), garlic, whatever. Add water and simmer for several hours. I strain the liquid, picking out any few pieces of meat that might have been left. Then I put the broth in the fridge to chill overnight. The residual fat rises to the top and can easily be skimmed off and discarded. This leaves you with incredibly rich tasting, no-fat, no-salt, chicken broth to use with any- and everything. You probably already do this, but I just thought I'd add my two cents worth.

MARY Z, I do what you suggest when I roast a chicken. When I stew it, practically all of the meat falls off the bones.

Mal

Mal and MaryZ, Bravo the two of you.

Do you think coffee is harmful because of caffein and pesticides, or do you think it is harmless if taken in moderation?

Eloïse

WALKING MAY PREVENT DEMENTIA That is not streneous and almost everybody can do that.

Did you know that about COFFEE, TEA, COCOA

So, is there a problem with coffee? From all I've seen and heard, including the site above, coffee in moderation is okay.

They keep finding all sorts of bad stuff about all foods - remember the cranberries-causing-cancer scare of about 25 years ago? - and I think all of it needs to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt (if not real salt). Usually the problems are caused by massive, huge amounts of whatever the product of the day is. I continued to eat cranberries, and will continue to drink my 3-4 cups of coffee per day.

I drink a lot of tea its supposed to be good for you. I have one or two cups of coffee a day. One cup is caffinated and the others are decaff.

Last night I had my pasta fix for the week. My sauce only had one point in it which was for the little bit of cornflour I used to thicken it. It was a mushroom sauce. I don't have meat with my pasta dishes to cut down on the points. I don't miss it either.

If you cut fat out altogether your gall bladder will malfunction in time. You need a little bit of good fat such as olive oil.

Being too stringent with your diet will cause relapses. I have one low sugar good fat muffin every day with my coffee after dinner. I do all my baking with olive oil not butter. It works just fine.

I use skim milk not full milk. I use calcium enriched skim milk. I have a cup and a half a day as my allowance. We need calcium in our diet. I also eat 100grams of unsweetened acidopholus plain yoghurt (home made) every morning with my whole grain unsweetened cereal. I use whole grain rice flakes that I make into a porridge. I really like it. I stir in the yoghurt after the cereal is cooked.

Half a cup of baked beans is enough. They are quite filling. Its an alternative breakfast on one slice of whole grain toast. Stir a dash of crushed chilli into your beans for a taste sensation!

I have not eaten bread for several months. Gluten free bread is yuk. I eat a low fat corn bread sometimes that I make with my salads etc or a cheese muffin also home made so I can control the fat content etc. I use low fat cheese and chopped fresh parsley in my cheese muffins, olive oil and never any sugar.

Our cream corn here is low cal so corn fritters made at home with the right ingredients can make a nice change for lunch or even dinner accompanied by a salad. You don't have to have dull meals.

Carolyn

Not sleeping for more than 8 hours PER WEEK was NOT his COFFEE ADDICTION says this man.

Pedln and MaryZ,

What I loved the most some 20 years ago was my numerous cups of coffee. I had to choose between that and my sleep, it was a hard choice, I used to drink up to 5 cups a day. I dropped to one cup in the morning and it went well for a year, then I had to switch to decaf. About 3 years ago I quit altogether and I had headaches, I was shaking and I was in a terrible mood. It took me 4 months getting rid of the caffeine accumulated over the years. I guess my nerves are more fragile than other people. I still love the smell of good strong coffee and if I have even one cup, I will have much more energy and I also I will be awake for most of the night.

Not everybody reacts to coffee like me, so please don't think I am trying to make anyone give up coffee. We all have our own way of dealing with it.

Eloïse

I certainly admit that I'm addicted to coffee - and if I ever wanted to quit entirely, I would taper off, rather than suffer the withdrawal-headaches. Actually, the coffee I make at home is a 2:1 mix of caff:decaff. (Sorry - didn't mean to mislead anybody.) Any I drink out, though, is usually full-caff - but that's not much.

I've done the decaf coffee exclusively thing, the absolutely no caffeine thing, and found no difference from drinking coffee in the morning and tea in the afternoon and then no caffeine in the evening. I can tell easily if I have had too much regular coffee. So I limit it. I also dink mostly decaf at home, but when I go out and am paying for it, I want a good cup of coffee, usually regular. As in all things, it's moderation, except when there is a specific health problem related to a person - that's my theory anyway.

I have terrible trouble staying away from sugar and cheese, but coffee has never been a problem. I never really liked it, drank it to be like the other grownups but always tamed with sugar and milk.

When I stopped smoking, coffee became completely uninteresting. I drink one cup in the morning--to wake up--and that's it.

I do like the smell of coffee though.

I love good coffee; always made it in a French coffee press. I tell myself I can't afford to buy the kind of coffee I really like (I can't), and that it's too difficult to fill the tea kettle and carry it to the stove, and to carry the full cup over to my computer station while I'm sitting in a wheelchair or juggling a pair of crutches. (It probably is, but I could do it if I wanted to.)

Because of this I drink Taster's Choice instant coffee, which isn't really coffee to me. I drink four mugs full a day, and if I drink it too close to bedtime it keeps me awake. That doesn't bother me because I've taken a nap in the afternoon for years and years; have two days in one, which I like.

When I wrote about food earlier, I meant to say that it's really the way I like to eat. I've never liked red meat very much. Any dessert you give me I'd swap for a loaf of good bread.

Once I baked a lot of bread, dill bread, rye bread, whole wheat bread, cheese bread, French bread, Italian bread, bread with seeds in it, onion bread, plain old white bread. I sold it and rings of sweet bread at a craft store when I lived in Westchester County, New York.

What I miss when I'm dieting is bread and only bread. My favorite lunch is salad, bread, a piece of good cheese, wine and thou. I don't drink wine any more. My favorite thous always fly the coop, and it's hard to find any kind of bread in the supermarket that I like. (If I had a breadmaker, I'd eat the whole thing all by itself with no butter or anything else the minute it was done.)

Mal

Oh Mal, I do love a good loaf of bread. I havea breadmaker, but when I used it, I always ate too much, and not having preservatives, it did not keep well. My Seattle kid and Charlottesville kid, they seem to have the really good bakeries, so I enjoy the bread they get when I visit.

MaryZ, I mix my morning coffee with decaf also -- grind the beans together -- and here's why. In 1997 I got a pacemaker. I was still working, so Saturday mornings with a full pot of coffee was such a treat, and I took full advantage. About 3 or 4 months into the pacemaker I saw the Medtronic technician for a mechanism checkup. When he finished he asked if I'd had any problems, like real rapid heartbeat, etc. I told him I had experienced such a few Saturdays earlier. He examined the printout he'd made of pacemaker activity and the graph for that particular day was so out of synch with the rest of the days. I told him I usually consumed a lot more coffee on Saturdays, and his advice was to at least mix it with decaf. Now that every day is Saturday I try to be a bit more moderate.

Mal, what is a French coffee press?

Pedln, did you never try freezing your bread? I keep mine in the freezer because I don't eat more than two slices a day usually. I find this useful. I have never made bread even if I often thought about it. I have a friend who milled her own wheat. She had a machine but it was a slow process.

What do you all think about arthritis in relation with obesity?

Eloïse

Mal I am NOT giving up my baked beans, I thought they were meant to be excellent food, anyway I love them. At least Caroline says half a cup is ok, which is somewhat less than my usual luncheon can. Better than nothing though.

Anneo

Arthritis - If your are overweight or obese you are loading your joints. If you have weak joints they will deteriorate further. I am so much more mobile since I got rid of those 44 lbs. I still have pain but I have more flexibility and energy. Every doctor I have ever had anything to do with says that you should try and keep trim if you have arthritis. I think I can wholeheartedly agree with that.

Thank goodness I only carried that extra weight for five years!

Carolyn

JUDITH, my dear, I'm not asking anyone to give up anything. Here canned baked beans made with molasses or corn syrup, sugar, pork and pork fat contain 277 calories for 1/2 cup. I don't know how they're made where you are or how many calories they might contain.

CAROLYN, you are absolutely right about the stress on joints even a few extra pounds can cause.

Mal

Went and checked can and ours are way more weight friendly, was only joking really, as I do love baked beans.

By the way really nice to see you Mal, as usual you are a fount of information.

Judith

Mal our beans are very low cal thank goodness. I add a dash of chilli to mine as I heat them. Anneo I buy the Oak ones as they are gluten free. I think your food companies should take a look at their recipes as so much of the canned food is so much more fattening than ours. Another thing I have noticed is the American cake recipes are so sugar laden. You can use half the amount and its still sweet. I use a third of the sugar recommended in an American cake recipe and half the amount recommended in the cookie recipes.

Also I note many of the savory type dishes have a sugar content which is not needed at all. Cutting down on just sugar intake I think would help a lot. I think our Food companies have been under pressure for some time to give healthy alternatives and I think they have made quite a decent effort.

Carolyn

We buy a lot of Watties for just that reason, we often by New Zealand. Mainland cheese is wonderful.

Anneo

ELOISE, click the link below to see a French coffee press.

Coffee press

Thanks Mal, We do have them here and we call them Bodums. I laughed because I not sure if the French invented the thingy, but who knows.

Last night there was an ad on television showing a cheeseburger with all the trimmings. My TV set has a 19" screen. Well the picture of the cheeseburger was the size of the screen, 19 inches. That made me sick.

Both Judith and Carolyn said that Downunder the sugar content of packaged foods contain much less sugar than here. We have sugar in everything, going from bread, to salad dressing, canned vegetables, dry cereal (the unsweetened kind) and anything you can think of that has been transformed.

We know that advertising increases sales. Fine. But advertising that harms health is no longer what we call 'free market economy' it is profiteering, in my opinion, the more profit food industries make, the more governments benefit from taxes and political funding.

People do eat and drink what the ads promote even if too much of it makes them gain weight. The will to avoid it cannot always be controlled. Wrong food choices can make you sick in the long run, but if governments and the medical community are not against it, then they must be OK, otherwise the law would prevent it from being advertised.

We have been accustomed to following doctors orders, then why don't the medical comunity speak out against ads that will harm you over time? They can't, they need the corporations funding.

In Canada there will be a law which will prohibit 'Low Carb' labels. I just heard that in the US that label is not allowed. So governments can intervene. Labels don't always tell the truth, they can bypass it with tricky words such as 'low carb', 'light' this and that.

It is up to the public to educate ourselves because we can't count of food industries, we can't count on governments, we can't count on the medical community. I constantly hear "ask your doctor" if such and such food is good for me. I wish that would be so easy to do. I get on the phone, call my doctor and before I get through to her I have to make an appointment and the receptionist always asks, "what's your problem?" I tell her "I want to ask her about a certain food, if it's good for me or not." The receptionist will say: "I can give you an appointment three months from now, is that OK?" My doctor will say: "I don't know if such and such a food is good or not? I am not a nutritionist, unless you are allergic to it but I don't know everything." My doctor is a fantastic woman. Never knew anyone quite like her, she lets me challenge her about certain medication because I search the net to look for side effects.

So we are left to figure it out for ourselves about what is good or not good for us. That is what I do and what everybody should be doing.

Eloïse

ELOISE, Bodum is a brand name.

Mal

I just wanted to let everyone know that I am so happy with this site. It has given me the encouragement to go back to counting my points. I find that for me it is the best way to go. It is only occasionally that I have to use the book to find the point value of a food.

With WW I can have everything. I have been so confused over the past few years with low carb, low fat, etc. With WW I more or less pick low fat foods, but I can still have my pasta and bread (no carb counting here.)

The best breads have 3 or more grams of fiber. Most breads are 2 points per slice, but the high fiber bread is only 1 point per slice. My favorite is Pepperidge Farms 9 grain.

Almost all vegetables are 0 points and a portion of fruit is only 1 point. You can basically eat the way you like, the less processed the foods, the lower the points.

Again, I am so happy to have this site available to me and I hope everyone is getting something out of it as I have. Dottie

I have lurked daily in this discussion group but I think I will pause to share some thoughts.
I have come to a conclusion. This may be applicable only to me. I don't believe in a "one size-fits all" approach to losing weight. I have concluded that the body (guided by the mind of course) tells me the method of losing if I will only listen to it. For decades I have followed the principle that breakfast is an important meal. I never skipped it. That may have been good when I was younger.
What is my body now telling me? That I am not hungry in the morning. And so I no longer eat breakfast. I take orange juice and vitamins in the morning and that is all. Toward noon I begin to get hungry.
I don't want to omit the importance of my mind. On days when I have patients hour after hour with only ten minutes between each, I find that I can go all morning and most of the afternoon without thinking of food. My mind is occupied with my patient. If I think of food, then I start to get hungry. In other words, to me cues are important -- thoughts of eating, watching someone else eat, seeing a picture of food, smelling food, TV food commercial -- anyone of these can move me toward eating or wanting to eat. But eating in the afternoon is OK so this is what I am concentrating on these days.
My problem has never been what I eat -- it's how much I eat. I am primarily a vegetarian but one can gain weight even from eating too much fruits and vegetables, especially if there is no physical activity.
That's the next item. I ordinarily walk two miles almost every morning near my house. But recently my patient case load has increased and I had to leave the house earlier, hence my walking slowed down or stopped. Then I had a brain storm. When I can't walk at home, I walk around the hospital grounds in between patients. Once around is 10 minutes. Twice around is 20 minutes. So now I am becoming better in not skipping walking.
But back to eating. I found that the evening was a dangerous period. If I sat in front of the TV, I wanted to "munch." If I was at the computer, I wanted to have some food nearby. This was having a big effect. I needed to stop that. So I have given myself a window. I am allowed to eat at any time between 11 a.m. and 6 p.m. No such thing as breakfast, lunch, or supper -- just eating whenever my body asked for it (the way animals do) so long as it is between 11 a.m. and 6 p.m. How do I stop myself from eating after 6 p.m.
Here we come to what is the most important item - to me anyway. MOTIVATION! I am the type of person who works best under pressure and does especially well if someone tells me I can't do it. That's all I need. So I have done two things.
1- I have signed up to stay at a beach house in January. It will be too cold to swim but it will still be on the beach.
2 - (This is the BIG one! I have told others that I will wear a swim suit there. I have committed myself publicly. I don't like to be ashamed any more than any one else. So I have no choice.
I started about a week or so ago at 200 with a goal of 180. I am now down to 198.
That's my method of losing. Probably of no use to any one else.
If this discussion group continues, I will keep you up to date.

Robby

Eloise, my friends and I also call those French Coffee Presses Bodums. Guess that my be the only brand available around here.

That was an interesting web site, Mal, and I was delighted to milk frothers listed. The one they showed is not quite like what I have used. My DIL had one from Williams-Sonoma -- you put it in a cup of COLD SKIM milk (the colder and skimmer the better) and this little $20 whisk justs froths that milk up to a mountain. We would put it on top of a half cup of decaf and call it our cappuchino.

Earlier this month I took one to a friend for a hostess gift. We had a ball with it. Frothed up the milk, put it in the microwave for a few seconds to get it warm (and to stiffen it) popped it on the coffee and added cinnamon sprinkles. That was dessert.

Robby, I'm not quite as brave as you, as far as bathing suits go. I will bring it, but . . . My goal is ten pounds before the beach party. That's less than a pound a week and with the new fitness facility opening, who knows. Good luck to you.

Robby that regime may work for you. Those with slow metabolisms must eat three meals a day and two healthy snacks. The meals of course must be balanced and the calories kept to the allottment for either weight loss or maintenance.

My friend could never lose weight because she kept fasting, missing meals etc. She slowed her already slow metabolism. I nagged her into eating more food than she has ever consumed before in her life. (healthy foods) She is now back at a weight she has not enjoyed since her twenties. Her metabolism is working now and shes burning the food not conserving fat for a famine.

Its true one size does not fit all.

Carolyn

Dottie, I am so happy that you like the discussion. We need moral support and like Robby said, MOTIVATION. Otherwise we find any excuse to indulge, we are sad, happy, bored, lonely, craving, and we forget that none of these are good excuses. The only one that should count is if we are hungry, really hungry, pangs and all. It has motivated me too. Now I exercise not only when I go to my gym class for an hour a week, but I have a tape and do it one hour a day. It is gruesome work. But I am getting stronger.

Robby, how wonderful, we now can say we have a doctor among us. It is very generous of you to share your own determination to lose 20 pounds before the Beach week in January. I agree with you that each one of us is different in their approach. What will work for one might not work for others. What we must remember is to cut down on whatever makes us gain weight, whether it is sweets, junk food, eating between meals, eating too much, too fast, eating already prepared food. Eating in the evening is the worst for gaining weight.

I hit the mute button every time I see a food ad on television now and go do something else.

Carolyn, I need to eat often too, I remember when you told us about those wonderful recipes, do you still cook desserts for your family even if you are a diet?

Éloïse

The only dessert I cook now Louise is my healthy muffins. I make carrot and pineapple and apple and cinnemon. There is only a quarter of a cup of sugar in them and the fat is olive oil. You can nuke them and serve with whipped cream and icecream for the family. They are a perfect size not to be a piggy dessert. Sometimes I make double chocolate muffins and serve those nuked with home made chocolate sauce ( half the sugar in the recipe and also baked with olive oil) and whipped cream. Fresh berries are nice with the double chocolate muffins. I make them in the med size muffin pans so they are just nice for a small portion of dessert.

Carolyn

Good morning all, I hope that everybody is enjoying these last days of summer to the fullest. I certainly have. I went somewhere new in nature, not my usually haunts near my home. My two friends wanted to walk in one of her forest paths she usually enjoys with her husband.

Because I usually exercise for an hour every morning since I started on this discussion, I was already a bit worn out, but we walked on the path all afternoon, she had us over for dinner, her husband cooked and later we went to a concert downtown. Gorgeous day. And I even kept within my food limit. I needed that.

I haven't weighed myself, I just go by how my clothes if they get looser.

I will be back later on and please come in and tell us how you are doing.

Eloïse

Good Morning, Eloïse, I am so glad to see your post! We have, I believe, still another week to discuss our topic.

Now a question about which I always wonder: Nutritionists advise drinking at least 8 glasses of water a day. How large a glass? Would cranberry juice fit into the equation (probably not because of the sugar), so MUST it be water? It is a crucial question for me because I have only one kidney.

The gargantuan portions served in local restaurants boggle the mind. Alas, not all "can't-finish" portions carried home in a doggie bag fare well the next day.

On a recent Friday my son invited me to supper out with the family in a restaurant in their part of our fair town I had never visited. The salad bar, by no means unique, is a very popular feature and so are the huge portions. My appetizer of Fried Calamari (yes, I know, I sinned!!), done to perfection, arrived on a large plate and would easily have fed 3 or more. But no one else at the table fancied them. I had about half a dozen and took the rest home. I had one serving from the salad bar with oil and vinegar and wanted for nothing else. No one had room for dessert.

The menus in even fine restaurants in Europe feature "senior plates", which are prepared and presented with the same care and attention, only in smaller portions. I've found them to be a wise choice and a true blessing because doggie bags are largely unknown.

Bonjour Traude, I totally agree with large portions in restaurants in America. I am trying to put myself in their shoes as to why they do it. First, there is competition, second people often eat more than what they intend to do when they come in. Third, is how FULL you are when you finish. If you are very full, you ate too much. Also the fat content in large portions on the plate. A large plate full can contain as much as 1700 calories, the total allowed in one day.

Traude, I have the light cranberry juice sometimes, but I taught myself to be more thirsty by drinking a big glass of water first thing in the morning. At first I didn't like it but gradually I needed it. I am not in favor of any kind of juice. It's way too sweet for me.

The feeling of fullness is what adds the pounds. How to stop eating BEFORE we are full. Stop eating even when we are still a bit hungry and that is before dessert, because after 20 minutes the hunger pangs will have stopped. The mind is a funny things, we want to stop eating something we like but we can't. We have to learn something new and it is hard to do.

Being tired we think food will give us energy and we eat, drink coffee and wait to see for the energy to kick in.

I learned some time ago that the oxygen you breathe in is like eating. It is like food. After exerting myself physically I don't feel like eating even if it's a long time since I ate. Dancers are never hungry. They can't dance on a full stomach and they are not hungry after dancing because of all the oxygen they breathed in. In a way that is why exercise makes people lose weight and it's not just about the calories but oxygen.

Eloïse

Traude, I like cranberry juice, too. I'm more partial to hot drinks than cold drinks, even in summer, so I just have part of a cup of cranberry juice (light) with maybe a dash of orange juice and some water. Nuke it in the microwave, and it's a lovely drink, especially on a rainy afternoon. I asked a nutritionist if microwaving took away the nutrients and she said no.

Up until a few years ago, 8 8 oz glasses of water was supposed to be a must. Then those organizations in the know came out and said that studies had shown that wasn't necessary. When I travel, I tend to drink more water than I usually do, so now at home, I try to do what I do when travelling -- recycle my "boughten" water bottles with tap water and keep one by my side.

I count my tea as part of my liquids I love tea! If I want water I have hot water with a lemon slice. Our tap water is very clean but I can smell the chemicals in it so I boil it which takes some of the chemicals out by evaporation and have it hot. I can't afford bottled water. I hope one day to buy one of those water distillation machines they are about $300 NZ. My DIL has one but lives too far away for me to take advantage of it or I am sure she would provide me with some drinking water.

Yesterday I bought a jacket size 12 which is the same as a US size 10 and it fit! Its a Harris Tweed - very smart and I got it from the Hospice charity shop for $9. It looks like new. I had been looking and looking for a jacket which can be worn casual or dressed up for formal wearing. Harris tweed matches almost any colour too. I was so thrilled to find it. Its so nice not to have to look in the fat ladies clothes! Ruth says I am still losing weight. I have to be careful not to keep seeing that fat person in the mirror! Its hard for me as I am so scared of putting on that weight that I so determinedly shed this year.

Last night we had a dessert. W/W strawberry jelly to which we had added some fresh strawberries before we put it to set and had some plain unsweetened yoghurt to accompany it instead of icecream or cream. We have enough left for dessert tonight! The dessert had very few points so it was guilt free.

Now I am going to make some double chocolate muffins for the freezer! I have to have my chocolate fix now and again and these muffins are fairly low cal the way I make them. I use olive oil again as the fat content.

Carolyn

Pedln, Now I understand what Carolyn meant when she said "nuke" it. At first I thought it was the shape of those muffins that looked like a nuclear explosion. hahaha. Now you say nuke it in the microwave. Now what does it really mean?

I know I said once that I never lost weight doing exercises only, but this time, a combination of both reduced food intake and exercises might do the job. I started about 5 days ago doing them with the help of a tape, in fact the lady demonstrating it comes from New Zealand, P. exercises, you know what I mean. I do them one hour a day and I already see a change, I won't weigh myself though because it usually doesn't show in such a short time.

I have been sort of counting calories too and walking one hour a day too. That is how much I am determined to get in shape. If I didn't come here every day, I might not be motivated to do it, but you are all helping me.

I will keep it up. I can't count of something or somebody else to do the job for me, but I can count on my own resources.

Exercising every day instead of once a week like before made a big difference on how I feel.

To blame genes for obesity does not seem reasonable to me otherwise one third of the American population would have fat genes. One to ten percent I might admit, but 30%, no.

We must react and work on dealing with this collectively by not encouraging poor food choices through advertising. If the food industry doesn't get the message that people will not buy these products, they might stop advertising it. By writing governments to take out those machines in schools, we will start making governments aware that they are not doing their job in keeping children healthy so they can become healthy grown ups.

Governments will listen to the electorate, perhaps after listening to the giant corporations, but Fast Food outlets listen to the clamor about fat producing foods because we see healthier foods than 3 years ago in those outlets.

Eloïse

Eloise I do think there is such a thing as inherited metabolic systems. My SIL runs, goes to the gym and watches his food intake. He is still very solid in build and if he ate as much as a normal man he would be obese like his aunts and uncles on his mothers side. One of his daughters has his build. She has very solid thighs and is big built his other daughter takes after her mother who takes after me and her father. I was always very small, childhood til age 49 when at menopause and when my fibro was very very bad I put on those 44lbs. I do believe that some people are born with slow metabolisms which I do think has something to do with thyroid function. The balance of the thyroid is so fine that I believe there can be problems even in the so called normal range if the figures are on the bottom end or the top end of the normal scale. Those on the lower end could be slightly hypo thyroid (slower metabolism) and those on the high end could be slightly hyper thyroid ( fast metabolism). A friend went to a naturopath who put her on thyroxin and for the first time in her life she began to lose weight. She only took the tablets for around 6 mths but from then on she metabolised her food normally. Previously she had to eat like a bird and yet she was very tall and solid framed. If she ate the same as I did she would just pile on the weight. I think there is much to be learnt about the thyroid gland and how it can affect our weight.

Eloise - to nuke something means to give it a burst in the microwave to warm it up. For instance a frozen muffin I do on 30% power for one minute twenty seconds and its just perfect. Warm but not hot. My microwave is 800 watts as far as I know.

Carolyn

Thank you Carolyn for your much appreciated advice.

We are exchanging valuable information and we appreciate any experience you might want to share whether you tried them or not and whether those you tried worked or not.

I realize that there is a genetic link to obesity and if there is an upsurge of it, could it be that our genetic makeup is being altered? If that is so, then it would be nice to know about it from a scientific viewpoint.

Please continue to share your ideas with us as we will be ending this discussion on obesity on Wednesday?

Eloïse

My dad always said I would be the one of his 3 daughters that would gain weight like his mother. She was short about5ft 6in. I am 5ft9 1/2 now lost alittle but still tall but I did gain. I guess genes do get some of the blame but I used to bake bread, alot as I even sold some along as everyone wanted some. I loved eating it but now I think a loaf lasts the 2 of us about 2 weeks. I no longer bake bread only chicken or roasts.I just stay at my current weight. My Al lost over 20 pounds when he had his surgery this spring. He looks marvelous, at 180.

Roseda, I smiled when you said that your dad's mother was short at 5'6" because when I was young, I could see over the head of people in a crowd. When I travel by metro at home in Montreal, there are so many young people way over 6 feet, they have to bend their head to walk through the door. My grand daughter is 13 and already 5'7". She is very feminine and loves to dress up. At a wedding she is going to in November she will wear a long black dress with a white piece in the skirt with high heels. My little baby has grown up.

We have to be comfortable with our weight. I wanted to exercise not just to lose weight, but to feel stronger and better. I hate to do it every day because it is so strenuous, but it is getting easier. I believe that a combination of good food choices and exercise works better than just one or the other alone.

Seniors are much more sedentary than before because housework gets easier and easier. Now you just have to push a button and the work gets done, well almost.

I find that good food choices saves money. We can do without a lot of packaged food. Cereals have become very expensive and even those that are labeled 'light' or (I love this) 'no sugar added' but they add corn syrup or honey or other sweeteners, that can lead one to think that it is low in calorie when in fact it is not. I agree that food without salt or sugar is bland, but that is because we are more and more accustomed to the taste of salt and sugar.

Always read food labels. After doing this constantly we come to understand that sometimes they can be deceiving. The food companies mislead people who want to avoid carbs or sugar. Read labels with a practiced eye and soon you will become quite an expert at knowing what ingredient the package really contain.

It doesn't mean that we should be paranoiac about food, I think we should enjoy eating and meals should be a time of pleasure. It can be both healthy and tasty and to learn how to cook something new is a wonderful challenge.

Eloïse

Eloise, this discussion is motivating me, at least to question some of the stuff I eat, and make me feel guilty if I eat it. Seriously, it is having a positive effect.

Re: cereal. Even the good ones don't do it all right. At Sam's I get a large box that claims an abundance of omerga 3's, protein, and fiber in every serving. Yet is also has 16g sugar in each serving.

From today's local paper. A high school student, currently an exchange student in Chamberry France, wrote in her weekly column that -- "A girl came up to me and said, 'You can't be that American girl. You're not fat.' "

Pedln, that was not very nice of that girl to say such a thing. The French are not perfect, I often think that if the British and the Germans, who drink beer is very high in calories are heavier, on the other hand wine, in spite of its sugar content, has that ingredient which keeps the French the Italians slim. But they also have more cirrhosis of the liver.

Japan is the country, I think, which has the highest rate of longevity. They eat very little fat, in the form of oil, rice and little if any meat, more fish, vegetables and soy products. Those are the things which keep bones and arteries in good condition. Their cities are very polluted. Tokyo is one of the biggest cities in the word and the air is so polluted that people wear masks to walk on the street. Does it mean also that eating with sticks helps you to eat less and eat more slowly?

Eloïse

I am going to miss this discussion. I had begun to think no one else but me was heavy and just decided I did not care as long as my dear hubby loved me as I was but now I am being a little more careful to not use as much fats or salt (we seldom use sugar at all, a 4 pounder lasts over a year).We walk and he loses but so far I am in a holding pattern. oh well I will try for awhile longer. It took a long time to get here.

I hope you all know that there are several on-going discussions here at SeniorNet that deal with compulsive overeating and with weight loss.

I'll put links below: Compulsive Overeating is in with other Eating Disorders in the Health Matters folder: "Eating Disorders" 9/4/04 11:43am

Weight Loss Support is in the Healthy Habits folder: "Weight Loss Support Group~NEW" 9/29/04 1:27am

jane

Roseda, thank you for your nice comments. It was a pleasure to be here and I learned too how to control myself a bit more as I have been exercising every day for an hour plus walking outside one hour a day too.

I always think about how to stat healthy, constantly think about what I will eat for the next meal, about eating my 5 to 10 fruits and vegetables a day, smaller portions of protein in meat, fish and dairy products. I only drink very weak green tea and water.

You have all helped me to do more than I used to do. There is so much information about nutrition on the web and elsewhere but we have to sift through them carefully not to go on a drastic diet, some diet food and food plan are very high in calories. Diet shakes can increase your sugar intake, it is better to avoid them altogether. 'Slimmer faster, will make you gain more after your stop.

Education is the best way to keep weight down. Teaching our palate to enjoy what is good for us. Teaching the mind to stay focused on goals we want to reach. Not giving in to tempting advertisement no matter how wonderful they make it sound. Muscle building equipment is good but costs too much when you don't use it. Besides they are ugly sitting there doing nothing in your living room. They only work with less calories and eating after exercising is what we want after strenuous exercises.

I must try to get used to not opening the fridge door outside of meal time. Hahaha, that is not good for me.

Thank you Jane for putting the links to the other discussions about weight, they are very helpful.

Eloïse

I want to thank everyone who came in this discussion for your kind and caring posts regarding this difficult problem of obesity. It concerns everyone because it involves our health and well being as seniors are more than others suffering from its adverse affect.

I urge everyone to keep watching that weight gain doesn't get out of hand as it is much harder later on to reverse the process. We have less energy to exercise and on top of that we have health limitations that prevent us from even trying. For some people good food choices is the only way to go and after correcting certain bad habits, energy will come to help continue on a more adequate food intake. It is well worth the constant effort if we want to live better, longer.

No doubt that a professional health adviser is better when major changes in lifestyle is considered, but eating better food should be on everybody's mind. In this, we are the only ones who can make a real change and everybody in the house will benefit from changing the way we eat ourselves.

I am planning on continuing toward my goal and wish the same for everybody.

It was a wonderful discussion and I loved talking with you.

Eloïse

Thank you, Eloise, and thanks to all who participated here.

Mal

Thanks, Eloise - this has been a great discussion, and I think we've all gotten a lot out of it.

Thank you, Eloise, for the fine discussion. Thanks to all who participated as well.

Maryal

I learned so many new things and new web sites. The best part is I'm feeling much better. Thank you everyone for this great discussion.

Eloise, a truly motivating -- in more ways than one -- discussion. Many thanks.

I was climbing the hill in the park in front of my house to watch the sunset just now and even if I exercise daily I had to stop twice on the way up, could be that I had just eaten dinner. I do feel stronger after 10 days though and I am more aware to breathe deeply to fill all the lungs as my exercise tape constantly reminds me. Nature always brings positive thoughts and it feels good to walk outside. I had gradually walked less and less in the past few years and now it is a bit harder, but feeling good will urge me to continue doing it.

Thank you again for your wonderful encouragement and if it was good to come here every day it is because of you I am sure.

We will see each other in other book discussions and remember sharing ideas together.

Eloïse

Well, Eloise, I hate to be popping in here at the very end but I've enjoyed this discussion so much that it wouldn't be fair to let it go unacknowledged.

I am trying very hard to get myself into a "go" mode on this losing weight thing and the comments here were great motivation. Thank you, all.

And one other thing, Eloise, you had such a great post a while back -it could have been #322 (and sorry, just don't have time to go check right now) but you made such a good case for all the things that could be being done at different levels to educate the public and I think you were right on target.

One of my favorite little "activist" type things to do, is to phone food companies and point out when they put non-nourishing ingredients into their products (like hydrogenated, partially or otherwise, oils - that's my main beef).

Anyway, it has been a great discussion and I thank you for the energy and care you put into it.

Good luck, everyone!

Eloïse, many thanks for a great discussion and the inspiration you have given us. A big thankyou to all who participated.

Eloise You have done a "Great" work here as it was the very thing that was needed and I thank you, have caught every post here and have apprieciated all of them even tho I am slowly losing weight which is a good thing even if it is causing wrinkles as coca buter or olive oil may help I hope.

"Thanks Eloise"

That's okay, Ginger. If you take weight off slowly it is more likely to stay off. That's how we put weight ON, a pound here and a pound there.

Howzat

I use green tea quite a bit. I have read a recommendation to drink as much as 2 quarts a day. I don't drink that much at least not every day. I do lose small amounts of weight but unfortunately skin does not shrink and we seem to lose it in places we'd just as soon some fat stay.

Howzat, Yep I have heard that is the way to keep it off.

Oh, Louise, will your bad weather ever end. You must be very tired by now.

Oh, Ginger our weather is wonderful now. Miami-Dade county was just brushed by the hurricanes. Whieh is a good thing since we had to entertain 2 very important people with all the entourage that went with them.

Louise, but the stress of the posiablilty of being hit must be taking its toll?

I heard also that a dessertspoon of apple cider vinegar and a squirt of lemon juice taken in hot water with a tspn of honey is very good for arthritis and to get the metabolism going. It should be taken first thing in the morning as soon as you get up.

I think I may try it.

This has been a good discussion and I hope that I have encouraged some of you in your weight loss program. I never thought I could get back to my pre fibromyalgia weight without strenuous exercise and I have. I would encourage all of those who are unable to exercise to do simple things like not using the TV remote. Not sitting down so much during the day and even going up and down the back stairs if they are safe several times a day as part of the your weight loss regime. I believe removing refined sugars from the diet, processed foods and cooking fresh food from scratch was the means to my success. Also only using olive oil and having no spreads on my muffins or sandwiches just healthy fillings. No refined carbs either. Wholegrain only and in moderation.

Thanks to Eloise for hosting the discussion and thanks to all of you who participated.

Now good luck and I will just say once more if I could do it any one of you can.

Carolyn

Thank you, Eloise, for a great discussion!

The next Curious Minds discussion will open on October 16.

See you all then.

jane

Humor

Humour from Wikipedia
Benefits of Humor in the Workplace
Humor in the News
Laugh for Better Health
Jewish Humor Research

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion.

First Post for This Topic
Discussion Leader: Tiger Tom

Humor,

It is what keeps us sane in this world of ours.

Humor, like Music, reaches out to us, makes us happy and gives us a lift.

There is humor in many forms and on many subjects. Broad comedy, subtle comedy, you name it.

There are jokes of every kind and about every subject. I didn't believe it but there are jokes about the Blind, deaf, and handicapped. Not all of them are cruel jokes. Some are but most are humerous to outright funny.

What kind of humor or jokes do you like? Clean? Naughty? Dirty?

Ever met anyone who didn't like humor or Jokes? I have. Strange bird.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

Well, you got me where I live! I LOVE to laugh and can find humor in almost anything. The odd joke or statement, meant to be humorous, can come off (at times) as cruel. One must consider the source. If you know the person who delivered it, you can tell whether they meant it as a cruel dig. Those I ignore.

Yes, I know of people who have no sense of humor at all.

You can't tell just "anyone" a dirty joke. You must know the person well enough that they don't take you for a foul mouthed type. Often without the so-called dirty word, the punchline (unfortunately) is lost. However, one can always find a suitable substitute word to make the joke work. Actually, I prefer that type of joke without the dirty words, as one then must use their imagination and, when it hits you, it is often hilarious.

I like people who can laugh at themselves. Life can be full of strife, but, if we are capable of laughing a lot of it off, I think we are healthier for having been given that gift.

I'd hope some jokes appear on here!!

(OOPS... is that permitted?)

Thanks for this discussion on humor, Tiger Tom. What in the world would we do without being able the "laugh" not only at the amusing but also at adversity.

I am reminded of people conversing at wakes (or as it's known in some areas as a "viewing"). You will often hear laughter break out among the mourners, recalling some "good times" with the deceased. So much of our lives are "formalized rituals" where emotion is frowned upon.

It's nice to be in situations where laughter is welcome, no matter how grim the situation is.

Howzat

I hope you have a lot of posters here because I agree laughter is a needed emotion. I think those can laugh live longer and not only that live happier. Laughter and good humor can brighten every day and lift the spirits when low.

When my husband was dying visitors would tell him funny jokes and he would smile and say That was a good one! He was ready to leave this earth but I have always been thankful for those who came and gave him the gift of humor.. anna

No day is complete without laughter. I know it's going to be a good day when the comics in the morning paper make us laugh out loud.

Hello Tiger Tom and Everyone. This is my first time to this site and my first time to post a message. What a wonderful topic to start me off as I do believe laughter is the substance of our happiness. You can tell by my email name can't you. It is especially great fun to have those laugh times where you are laughing out loud and you can't stop and your whole body jiggles. I call that "exercise on the inside" of our bodies and our soul. Happy Laughter to all at some point in time on this lovely Sunday. JoySoul

"I know it's going to be a good day when the comics in the morning paper make us laugh out loud. "

Different papers carry different strips. After leaving Los Angeles I missed some of the LA Times' comics for while, but now I have forgotten what they were (except Ziggy and Maxine) and enjoy some of the SF Chronicle's offerings, though their new ones - "Pearls before Swine" and "Clear Blue Water" - I can live without.

My political faves are Doonesbury and Boondocks; for memories of bygone times For Better or for Worse, Luann, Baby Blues and Zitz; for plain old nuttiness Garfield, and I'll always love the classic Peanuts. What am I missing in other papers?

Amie

AimeCa,

I don't know if you remember "Lil Abner" but here is a URL that will give you a daily strip of that Comic plus the site has daily strips of a number of other comis including Peanuts.

http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/lilabner/index.html

Tiger Tom

Humor is wonderful, I am a person that awakes and choses to be happy. So many folks wake up and sees fault in each thing that comes his/her way..we must teach them long as there is life Be Happy. Humor is one way to go soooo let us begin.......

"I don't know if you remember "Lil Abner" "

Sure do Tiger, but haven't seen it in a long time - thanks for the link.

Here's one for "Maxine" - she speaks for some of us older women, hehehee.... http://www.wtv-zone.com/jizoint546/max/max11index.html"

Amie

" I am a person that awakes and choses to be happy"

Me too! Firm believer in PPT - the power of positive thinking.

Amie.....(who feels a cold coming on - one of the few things the above doesn't cure. Maybe ZiCam will - worth a try!)

Doonesbury, of course, but two that are my current favorites that we get are 'For Better or For Worse' and 'Zits'. If you have or have ever had teenage males in your life, 'Zits' is a jewel every day. We had four daughters, but currently have four grandsons, ages 15-19. One or another of them is in Zits every day (and sometimes our granddaughters, too). Last week, our youngest 15-year-old GS even sent us a link to one of the strips on line, just to be sure we hadn't missed it.

I think the only one of my favorites not mentioned yet is Pickles. Anyone else laugh out loud over that one?

I too, like to enjoy the Patterson family with the children growing up in For Better For Worse. They are such a tipical family and Family Circle is also. Our family produced a few laughs in our time also. Maybe I shall search our past and think of some that will give this group the humor we need to get started here.

Speaking of childhood humor....

When my Son was about 4 years old, we lived next door to a little girl (playmate) of about the same age.

I used to buy "Turkish Delight" candy and I gave some to my Son to take outside, while playing.

I was standing at the kitchen window when I heard him and his little playmate just below the window. He opened the bag of candy and said, "Brendy, would you like a Delighted Turkey?"

What a memory!!

Humor,

A day without a laugh is not much of a day.

Tiger Tom

"the only one of my favorites not mentioned yet is Pickles. "

Don't think I've ever seen that!

I forgot "Ziggy" before, and the cartoon by Larson - can't remember the name, dang it. One I never forgot was a picture of the passenger side mirror of a car reflecting one giant eye, with the usual warning: "Items in the mirror may be larger than they appear"

Btw, Jerry Scott is on the credits for both Zits and Baby Blues.

Amie

Gary Larson drew The Far Side.

"Gary Larson drew The Far Side. "

That's it - thank you!

Amie

Humor,

Want some Humor? Look in the mirror
first thing in the morning and try to
recognize the person peering back at you.
I don't know who that guy is looking at me
but her sure is funny looking. Can't be me,
I don't look like that. I am young, have all
of my Hair, Teeth, face doesn't sag, no wrinkles,
and my color isn't pasty white. Yup, that
guy in the mirror sure does look funny.

Tiger Tom

How true, Tiger. I very seldom look in the mirror. No kidding. The most satisfying and the best humor comes from ourselves and our friends and families. This humor quite often arrises from suddenly seeing something very ordinary in a new and different light.

Howzat

Try a smaller mirror and a poorer light - works well for me:

"Never judge linen or a woman in candlelight"

Old Irish Proverb

Mirrors

I'm good at dropping mirrors...just adds 7 more years bad luck!! Forgot the total by now!! (grin)

I think that's some sort of proverb or superstition. More truth in it than poetry, though!

Humor is what makes life worth living. Seeing the funny side of life is so pleasant! For instance, and this is a true story!:

My friend had twin sons, Raymond and Roger, who were forever competing with each other. One day she carefully cut a Hershey bar(their favorite candy, at the time) perfectly in half. Then she brought the boys(age 4) to the table and ask Raymond which piece he wanted. After many minutes of staring at the two pieces, he looked up at her and said, "I want Roger's piece!"

Same twins are playing in the sandbox when Raymond asks Roger if wants to play Aunt Jemima. And without a pause, Roger says, "Yeah, you be Anja and I'll be Mima!"

I'm sure that many of us have these memories of children.

My favorites are Gary Larsen's "Far Side", the guy who drew "Herman" (1970s-'80s), of course, "Peanuts" and many of the jokes that were printed in the New Yorker magazine back when the editor had a great sense of what would make us laugh.

I am tired of "Maxine" and her sharp old mouth. She gets boring fast, IMHO!

What about the great comedians on TV? Remember, Red Skelton, who put on the funniest show on TV and never was off color!! He was the greatest! And, Dick Van Dyke, Danny Thomas, Sid Caesar, Carol Burnett, Harvey Korman, Danny Kaye, Andy Griffith, Don Knotts, etc, etc. What a joy to still be watching them on the oldies TV reruns!! Great timing is the their talent!!

According to Gallager, of watermelon smashing fame, "Humor is being able to look at things with different eyes". Look at signs and see what they really say. "Handicaped Vehicles Only", could that mean that only vehicles with something broken can park there, and just what broken parts constitute a handicap?? Could there be an IQ type test to determine which "Slow Vehicles Keep Right"??
Humor is all around us but one needs to be open to the unusual in order to see it.

Theron

Those examples are priceless. Thanks.

Humor, the joy of jocularity, has benefits that are actually measurable. The University of Southern California has tested subjects both before and after a thorough laugh session and found that laughing lowers the blood pressure, releases natural pain killers (endorphins), and boosts the immune system. Not bad for having fun!

Some of the correlations on the relaxing power of laughter:

100 laughs = 10 minutes of aerobic benefits from a rowing machine 15 minutes of laughter = relaxing effect of meditating for 8 hours. 10 minutes of laughter = relaxing effect of 2 hours sleep

We can see the future of medicine now . . . . "Take two television comedy programs and call me in the morning." Of course, as with anything, there will be people who overdo it. Next we'll be looking at twelve steps to conquering humor addiction. "I dunno doc, I just start laughing and I can't stop.

I love humor!! This is a great topic and so badly needed. I do love the old sitcoms. I can still laugh until my sides aches at the Lucy shows. One of my favorite episodes of all time is the Mary Tyler Moore show that had the funeral for the clown named peanuts. He was killed by an elephant. I have been in places where you really weren't supposed to laugh but it does seem that that's when things are the funniest.

Hi Tiger and All,

I love to laugh. I also like to make other people laugh, but I don't tell jokes. I generally work on whatever comes up in the moment.

Louise just wrote, "I have been in places where you really weren't supposed to laugh but it does seem that that's when things are the funniest."

Louise, you took me back to when I was in a high school church youth group. One night we traveled to a church near town to hear a man speak of his time in Africa. I don't remember his name or whether or not he was a missionary, but I think he was.

Anyway, the man gave us a VERY long slide-show presentation. Many many photographs of Africa, all of which seemed to have his son in them. Frequently the son was in the foreground so he pointed out items by saying, "Just to the right of my son, you will see the jeep that was our main transportation." Many many slides, many photos of son with interesting African artifacts.

This all got to my friend Marcia about halfway through. She leaned over to me and said, "Now in the next slide you will see, um, my son and a lion."

We were sitting in a pew of the small church. I began laughing, the back of the pew began to shake. Marcia began laughing--more shaking--people down the pew who didn't even know what the joke was began laughing. None of us were making any noise because we were in a church and laughter was not allowed.

Nothing like being in church to set off one's need to laugh.

Maryal

The time I and my companions got so tickled was at lunch. A French nun was offering wine. We responded by saying "Oui." She continued on with her offering repeating "Oui, Oui." (Wee, wee) That's when we got to laughing. We had to the chapel afterwards and still couldn't stop laughing. But we were just silly young girls.

Louise, perhaps we were all silly young girls--or, worth considering, maybe we have been taught not to respond to humorous situations when in certain settings.

Maryal

Laughter,

What is that section in the Readers Digerst?

"Laughter is the Best Medicine."

How true.

Tiger Tom

When in high school I joined the stage crew. Everyone was shy and I got elected to raise the Grand piano top at the start of each assembly. I forgot to do said job or was prevented to do it earlier so had to raise it after the students had filed in so I was often caught "on stage". Some smarty would start clapping ,,, so smarty me would "take a bow" and say Thank you. It got to be my trade mark to take that bow and I forgot to be scared as I knew they were my friends.

Later on in life: was at the docters office with a long wait, reading a readers digest, forgot where I was and started giggling over one of the stories. before I realized it half the folks in there were laughing along with me.... so nut that I am I did this every time I had to wait any where, I would start laughing and soon the entire room would be laughing. The doctor told me he loved when I came in as he always knew I was there because of the laughter. it is excellent theraphy.

I have been hearing impaired now for a number of years and everytime I am tested the audilogist remarks tbey seldom have a patiesnt that sees so much humor in being hard of hearing.

The first time I really noticed it my family had gathered at home and my children were discussing a new tv show called FRIDAYS..I thought they said something else and asked incredulously THERE"S PROGRAM CALLED FRIED EGGS?

It I didnt see the humor in my situation it would be very depressing..and we also forget sometimes..my oldest daughter is legally blind. She was with me when I was trying to drive to a new place. And I am asking her what does that street sign say ? Mom you forget I am the one that is blind and even if I could see it and tell you ..You're the one that cant hear.. It was really funny to both of us and I laugh whenever I think of it...

Except in very tragic situations ...most times we can see some humor in all things. And I think we are better for being able to do so...I love this topic Tiger Tom! and we all seem to find humor in our lives...good for us..anna

Some of my favorite humorous pieces are, the Know It All sketch from THE SECRET POLICEMEN'S OTHER BALL, most of Monty Python, all of Pogo, Bob and Ray, any Jack Benny skit or monologue, Steven Wright, most Saturday Night Live material, and Bill Mahr. I really don't care for slapstick, or Bob Hope's practiced set pieces. The Three Stooges leave me cold, and the Marx Brothers didn't move me a bit. However, Groucho on You Bet Your Life was a hoot!

Taste in humor seems to be much like taste in food, drink, or clothing. Different strokes for different folks. The only ones I can't figure are the PC types who take offense at everything. If you have to do a thoruough analysis of every joke before deciding to laugh, you are living an impoverished life.

I can't remember a joke past the next topic of conversation, no matter how good it was. I love spontaneous wit and humor, such as Annafair described with her daughter. I love Bill Cosby's humor and detest the 'comedians' who insult and humiliate. I like wry humor, and am delighted when I find a sly bit of it in my reading.

Personally, I have caused the greatest laughter by inadvertent comments that conveyed a meaning I never intended. While I am saying, "No, no, that's not what I meant!", my friends were roaring and choking out "Don't explain! It's too good as it is!"

Babi

We must be related for my inadvertant remarks have regaled my family and friend as long as I can remember..

Reading your post reminded me of a time when I was dating. Four of us were in a coupe..the driver, his date, and me sitting on the lap of my date. Now we were all good and old friends from school ..I had an new dress with a full circle skirt and the air kept blowing it up obstructing the drivers view.. He asked me to keep it down and I was trying ..but it is hard to keep that much fabric in place..so when the air caught it and covered the windshield ...the driver said ANNA KEEP THAT SKIRT DOWN..and I said Well this type of skirt wasnt meant to stay down!! I wont repeat all the hoo hahs and laughter and I was embarrassed but in later years when I recalled those days and those friends I would always smile at that memory. SO BABI we are two of a kind !!! anna

Circle Skirts & Crinolines

Anyone remember those?

Myself and two Sisters were waiting for a bus (in Montreal), heading for downtown to catch a streetcar. Young and carefree. Two of us were wearing felt circular skirts with huge crinolines underneath.

All the modes of transportation were always packed, so much so that it was a lucky soul who got on in the front, when someone was leaving by the back door.

We had settled on the plan that, if we all couldn't get on, then nobody would get on, as we were very inexperienced in the big city.

Well, of course the driver spoke in both French and English, each time he was about to close the door to set out again.

The next thing 2 of us knew, my Twin had squeezed her way onto the only available spot by the front door, and we saw her turn and heard her say "Mind the door...Gardez la porte!". Along with that, a view of the bus driving away with her felt skirt and criniline trailing out of the bus door.

Well, the two of us left standing were weak with laughter. It's one of those situations where "you would have to have been there".

However, second chapter...how to find the poor girl! That remains for another time.

Humor for most tastes:

Go to Google and type in Humor, Jokes,
or the type of joke you like and you will get a very wide range of humor.

There are Philosopher Jokes, very dry and subtle and some will make you scratch your head trying to understand it.

Lawyer jokes, lots of them.

Even jokes about the Blind, Handicapped, hard of Hearing. Some tasteless and some funny and not meanspirited.

What kind of Joke do you like?

Tiger Tom

Humor,

What kind of Humor do I like?

Well, one of my favorite quotes is:

"Our Universe is just one of those
things that happen from time to time."

Not sure many would find that funny but it cracked me up when I first read it. I have since had it translated in to Latin for a door plaque and have on the bottom of my Stationary that I used to use when I wrote letters, before e-mail. BTW, it was said by a Physicist (sp)

Tiger Tom

I think some of the funniest things happen in hospitals. They are usually shared only among the staff because probably no one else could see what was funny. A few years ago there was a hospital show. I forget what it was called but it was set in the inner city and actually had other people besides doctors doing the work that people do in hospitals. One of the funniest things was the guy in charge of the morgue who was selling pig parts. Soemone was going to pick part of them up so he put them on a stretcher. There was also someone to be picked up by a funeral home. Needless to say the 2 stretchers got mixed up.

It seems to me that whenever I'm down hearted there is always something on the SeniorNet site to lift my spirits. Without humour we'd be long gone !!...My late brother, who departed this life on October 8th, was a great fan of limericks and indeed gave a lecture on the subject to a Ladies Club in Montclair..of course they were suitably sanitized for the occasion!! We get some really good stuff at the SeniorCenter I volunteer at.. such as when we have our pix taken.. the ladies don't say "cheese" we say.."sex"..'cos most of us don't get any ! AND if you like I'll tell you about the Freudian slip made by one of my colleagues..it hasn't reached SeniorNet yet..but...? Colkot

I, for one, would love to hear your Freudian slip. The story of the limerick presenter who managed to find enough "clean" limericks to present to a Ladies' Club has me tickled. I think all the limericks I know are on the shady side.

"There was an old man of Nantucket. . ."

I have never known how that ended. It always gets stopped before the end comes. I seem to remember something like that in a nursery rhyme book but I can't remember how that ended.

story, got me giggling and in my present post operative state that is dangerous but need to tell this "yarn" while it is fresh in my mind.

Lat Friday morning, only 24 hours after major surgery, I was visited by a dear and long term friend who I usually rely on in times of need.I felt badly positioned in the bed, as one does in hospital and begged her to adjust the bed, telling her there was a knob at the bottom I had noticed people turning. She, wanting to oblige, searched round and tugged on what she thought may be an appropriate button, which said "tilt". Wow!!!! was that button aptly named. Almost immediately head of bed flew up and feet went down, so that I was quickly in an upright position. Horror reigned supreme, untill it became obvious first to me and then the others present that I was not hurt, merely shocked. There seemed nothing to do but laugh, which I did in spite of the discomfort from that exercise and soon friend, patients and arriving murses were doing the same.

Once the laughter subsided they were able to return my equilibrium, by straightening the offending bed, which is not all that simple when movement on the part of the occupier is difficult, given ones centre of gravity has slipped some, and those trying to lift bed back are weakened by belly laughs.

There once was a man from Nantucket
Who kept all his cash in a bucket
His young daughter Nan ran away with a man
And as for the bucket........Nantucket.

Sorry Tom, little bored here confined to barracks so behaving badly, interesting topic though.

Anneo

I like clever humour. Puns, satire and irony. My favorite comedies are British I think they are very clever. I particularly like Political Satire but also laugh and laugh at programs like "Waiting for God".

Carolyn

This group enjoys humor ...even when we are the ones being humorous or encouraging others to laugh ....

Anneo glad you are doing well and that you could laugh ..you sound like me ..if anything odd is going to happen it seems to happen to meLOL never passes me by !!

I believe in the power of laughter and humor. Years ago I read Norman Cousins Anatomy of and Illness where he decribes how he over came a serious illness with humor. And I know I have tried that when I have had some serious health concerns. For me I healed faster, felt less depressed and can even see the same effect in friends who can see humor even when things look bleak...And like babi I cant recall a joke ..well I only have one I can remember so when others are telling jokes I share mine..but have to admit delivery makes a difference too.. anna

I just received a catalog from PublicTV which has listings of many of the shows that people find humorous. Someone gave me a video of Waiting for God she'd purchased on Ebay. Much appreciated. Believe me there ARE limericks which are funny/clean. Mac found a website somewhere..can't ask him though..he's no longer with us. As to my colleague: she was arranging a new SeniorNet computer course (while I was on vacation) and so went into our computer room to ask the instructor of an advanced class if any of his students would be interested in taking an Internet Class... only it came out as "Intercourse class".!! As you can imagine there were a lot of enquiries about that one!! Colkot

Dave Barry has announced that he is planning to take a year off from writing his weekly column in the news paper. Needless to say this is going to be seriously missed. He doesn't plan to moave away from Miami though because according to him this is the capitol of weird news events.

When I was in France during the war, they told me about a particular French village where everyone had a parrot. It was their hobby. And, as everyone knows, the parrots copy what their owners say.
A German officer walked by a house one day and the parrot in his cage outside said:'"Down with the dirty Boche!" The officer wheeled around, walked back and the parrot said it again. The officer banged on the door and told the frightened woman that the parrot better be gone the next day.
Not knowing what to do, she hastened to tell the village priest who said:-"No problem. We'll just exchange parrots. He'll never know the difference." No sooner said than done.
The next day the officer came by and was amazed to find that the parrot was still there. Wanting to provoke the bird, he strode back and forth in front of the cage but the parrot was absolutely silent. Finally, in desperation, the officer stood directly in front of the cage and shouted:-"Down with the dirty Boche!" The parrot looked directly at him and quietly said:-"May all your prayers be answered, my son."

Robby

laugh - that was a good one Robby

ROBBY

That's one of the best I've ever heard!

Hey Phil, I really like this and I have a book with seven hundred and fifty limericks most of them obscene. is that legal here?

Robby went to look at the durants and it seems to be gone. . wha . . . happin?

claire

I've always appreciated humor, from honest belly laughs to sarcasm as a coping strategy. I got a new slant on it when our oldest was about three months old. She was an early smiler, but had never really laughed yet. I was laying on my back in bed one Saturday morning with her on my chest looking right at me. Suddenly, she sneezed. This startled me and brought a sudden laugh, which caused her to belly laugh loudly in delighted surprise. After we both finally quit laughing and I could think again, I realized how simple good humor is. It requires something familiar enough for us to have ordinary expectations and something suprising enough to jolt us from our expectations. But it is always much funnier if someone else joins in the joke. Of course, for the jolt to be really funny, timing is crucial.

Since then, I have laughed at many jolts from life and delighted in finding them when I least expect them, often where those around me are too somber to laugh. I do believe the saddest thing in the world is experiencing something hilarious around other folks who can't laugh.

Winsum,

I think that I have the same book.

I like a good Limrick. Doesn't have to be naughty, just cute.

Tiger Tom

TigerTom - I noticed your comments about humor in the New Discussions discussion. You commented that some humor was even about blind or otherwise disabled folks. Of course. But if it is really funny, it was probably started by someone blind or disabled. Every minority has their own hilarious jokes on themselves or those who want to help them. Their own jokes are much richer than the paltry ones written by people who have no real experience with the subject matter. Many of the really good jokes about Jews, Italians, Germans, etc. were from comedians of those particular ethnic groups who had a great time laughing at themselves and their families, though often for money on stage.

Most of us SNers get quite a kick out of old folks jokes told by our peers. For instance, this quick-witted wise cracker just spent three minutes trying to think of the word "contemporaries" which my wife finally helped me with, after I gave up and wrote "peers." I find the ridiculous facts of aging quite humorous most of the time, at least after I get through cussing.

I know what you mean, Coyote. It occurs to me that certain references to myself as I age are humor in action. Like, "I've got a hitch in my get-along", or "I tried roller skating again, but my center of gravity had shifted". <g>

Babi

Having just finished law school, I find the lawyer jokes quite funny. I particularly like the one, "What is the difference between a lawyer and a rebellious rooster?" Answer: "The rooster clucks defiance." Think about it.

A good Latin bon mot is always fun, cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum, I think I think therefore I think I am.

A clever knock knock joke, or a shaggy dog story with a great punch line, all of them give me a good snort and belly laugh. Humor is so difficult to define. One man's meade is anothers poison. There is also a relationship between humor and intellect. Steve Allen did some interesting work in studying humor, and I remember some research I read when I was studying linguistics that indicated that laughing at or creating a joke was one of the first indicators of intellect.

This is a subject that goes far deeper than one might expect. Funny, isn't it, humor is a really serious subject.

Keep laughing. Like age, it's better than the alternative.

Couldn't get your lawyer/rooster joke, but my daughter got it in about a minute.

Yeeps!

Coyote,

I agree with what you said. However, what I meant
was that some people are either not aware of these
types of jokes or are politically correct and don't
want them around for people to read or tell. I have
no problem with them myself. I expect my eyesight will
give out one day and that I will probably have to use
a walker or a wheel chair sometime. So, those types
of jokes might make those burdens a little easier
to bear.

Unorthodox: took a minute but got the joke.

Lots of Lawyers and Political jokes on the Net
as well as limricks.

Tiger Tom

I still don't get the lawyer-rooster joke.

Howzat

seeing the lawyer joke as a spoonerism, transposing letters. I explain no further.

Anneo

Sort of like "fire truck."
For those "innocent" people, always look for the "uck" combination. Pretend you are still in high school.

Robby

unorthodox

Got the rooster joke immediately!

I still don't get it!! I must be fuzzy today.

How many watch "Home Improvements"? I do like the family humor of that show and I also think its probably the best family program around. Seems like the others demean the family.

"Becker" is sometimes funny but certainly Ted Danson in "Cheers" was much better.

Just said goodbye to company from California but am welcoming someone else tonight. In the meantime, I will be entertaining the grans for four hours this afternoon so mom and dad can attned the OSU game and scout camp. This place has become a B&B!

One day I took my 4 yr old to the grocery, announcing along the way that we would be stopping at the natural foods store, Wild Oats. As we entered, he looked all around and asked, "Where's the oats?" I find children's questions sometimes hysterical! They are so literate!

Ann:-Going to this link about SPOONERISMS may help you.

Robby

Ah, thank you, Robert. I thought of a couple of possibilities on the rooster joke, one of which was a milder version of the one your hint suggested.

My favorite lawyer joke, which I remember because I've heard it more than once (which means you all have probably heard it too): "What do you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?" Ans.: "A good beginning."

ANN, I have always thought the things kids can come up with to be hilarious. It's why Linkletter's "Kids Say the Darndest Things" was so popular. In one I remember, a mother was trying to get some ketchup out of the bottle when the doorbell rang. She sent one of the kids to answer it. It happened to be their minister, who was startled by the child's explanation that Mom couldn't come to the door, because she was hitting the bottle.

Babi

That's one of the reasons I like "Waiting for God" as it pokes fun at us seniors.. I walk with a cane but still have all my faculties!! Colkot

Colkot,

I guess it doesn't hurt to have
a little air taken out of us once
in a while doess it.

Tiger Tom

I don't like em . . . my dad was a good one . . . claire

Humor,

About the only time I fail to see the
humor in something is when I am the Butt of>br? it. You know it is when sometihng happens
and people around are laughing or giggling
and you say: "It isn't funny." Well yes,>br> it is funny but being on the receiving end>br> one fails to see the humor.

One night I was outside walking around my
house when I managed to trip over three
different things. Didn't hurt myself other
than my dignity. When telling my Doctor about
it. I said, had I seen it without being
involved I would have laughed as it was funny
to see but a bit painful to myself when it
happened. People will accuse one of having no
sense of humor when oen fails to see anything
funny in something happening to or said about
oneself. I mudst admit, I am guilty of having little
or no sense of humor when I am on the receiving end.
I might appreciate the humor much later on but at the
time it happens, nope.

Tiger Tom

the banana peal jokes are like that. they do seem to be funny to onlookers but not to the slippee. . . .

I read most of these messages about humor, laugh and jokes. Is not it a big joke, that jokes and laughs are missing but discussion is on. Here is a small joke. A young couple was discussing the future of their son. Husban wanted the son to be an 'engineer', wife wanted him to be a 'doctor'. Their discussion was close to the brink of a fight, when a family friend arrived at the scene. Seeing them in such a mood, he asked the reason. Husband said I want my son to be an engineer. Wife said I am his mother and I want him to be a doctor. The friend thought for a little while and said amusingly, "I see. I would like to meet that bright and lucky guy to aske him what he want to be? But my memory is telling me that you just got married last week for the first time."

I have never cared for slapstick humor, or banana peel/pratfall humor. I don't like humor that laughs at the pain or embarassment of others. So, TOM, be assured I wouldn't have been laughing at your tumbles.

CLARE, I sympathize with your feelings, but lawyer jokes have been around since ancient times. I'm quite sure lawyers know all the best ones! Same with doctors or any other profession that sometimes gets people really angry. The fact that there are many great doctors and lawyers doesn't negate the pain of those that caused serious harm to a loved one. Humor, in some contexts, is a way to strike back.

And isn't it true that people have always dealt with the unbearable with humor? Look at the humor of soldiers in the lines. They make jokes about things that are otherwise too much to bear.

Babi

Hey there, I managed to take a tumble outside the Windsor Public Library last year, ending up with a bruised knee and a shiner. (But NO broken bones) I was assisted to my feet by two gorgeous young men. My friend Jean quipped that I only did it to be picked up by young men!! In spite of the bruises, I couldn't help but chuckle about that one!! Colkot.

P.S. a Chicago Joke dating back several years.(1979) A precinct Captain, who happened to be of Irish descent, died and went to Heaven. St.Peter greeted him and asked how things were going in Chicago. "Oh, it's just terrible these days," he groaned. " Those darned Poles are so full of themselves these days what with a Polish Pope and so on." St Peter replied: "Ja wiem, ja wiem..!" ( I know, I know) Colkot

last week and it was covered by every news organization..also completely surrounded by his fellows. I understand he did have injuries, i.e. broken ribs etc. an old man and brittle bones. . . but no one laughed. Now about those lawyer jokes let me quote someone here just a little
is a way to strike back.

the pertinent word is STRIKE and I feel struck at. nuff said. . . . claire

I am sorry to take advantage of this site for a personal message but this is something of an emergency.

Claire, I am receiving your e-mail but all messages I try to send as a reply are returned as undeliverable.

Jan

Humor:

Nothing amusing us lately?

After getting fed up with the Political Ads I ran a Laurel and Hardy film I had recorded ("March of the Toy Soldiers" also known as "Babes in Toyland')

What a relief from the noise and nastiness of the Political Ads that are being aired on T.V.

Needless to say, I found humor and laughter in the film and felt a whole lot better when I finally crawled into bed.

Tiger Tom

I awoke this morning with my cats running a race across my bed and leaping on the window to watch the children walking to school. You see the head of my bed elevates them higher there than in the other windows so it is their favorite place to watch the children. I don`t need an alarm clock as this is a regular occurance at about 7:30 every M-F. I find humor in this little escapade, don`t you?

Sorry again. Claire, you are blocking me.

Jan

Yes Roseda: I was visiting my daughter's house and wanted to use the computer but one of the stupid cats was sitting on the typing chair blocking my way - my daughter kindly thought it would get rid of the cat to turn the chair full circle one time and therefore make him skiddadle, but he liked it..... he wanted more.... so she turned it again and the more she turned the chair, the more the cat enjoyed it, until we were all in a state of hysterics watching that cat going round very gently and going NOWHERE while he purred even louder.

My cats always gave me a good laugh ..one day while talking on the phone I started laughing when my friend asked I said it is my cats..we had a calico cat named Patches ..she was the oldest of all of my cats and lorded over the younger cats. This day I as watching an enactment of HOW SHALL I GET TO MY WATER DISH WITH THAT PATCHES IN THE WAY..Patches was laying on the rug in front of the fridge enjoying the warm air at the bottom..Napolean came to the door to the kitchen and looked across to see his water bowl ..You could see him pause and try to figure out HOW TO ...so he plastered himself against the cupboard on the opposite side ..this nice fluffy cat became elongated and almost paper thin as he passed carefully by Patches who was watching and threatening..As soon as he thuoght himself safe he returned to his fluffy self but he was too close as Patches without getting up reached a front paw and swatted him..I dont know to me it was so funny and still is as I remember them so well..and my pets keep me laughing which is one reason I am grateful for them..I cant stay sad too long when they are around..anna

"Cats rool"! hahahaha

Humor brings to my mind the great comedians of my earlier days. The ones immediately springing to mind are Jack Benny, Bob Hope, Joe Penner--wanna buy a duck--and Ed Wynn. Who can forget Milton Beryl, Jacky Gleason and the Honey Mooners. Let's not forget Sid Caesar always coughing into someone's face. Oh the list could go on and on. I'm sure you folks could list a few of your favorite comedics .
But the two I laughed at the most was Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy. with their good slapstick comedy.
Let me tell you a little something about Stan Laurel. Back in the early sixties I watched on my black and white TV a documentary about Laurel. He was credited with being a Master Comedian. The moderator of this documentary went on to say that comedians from all over the world would seek Stan's advice as to how they could improve their act. Stan Laurel would willingly advise these comedians. TV still runs the short subjects of these two famous actors.
The comedians I just mentioned made you laugh without bringing sex into the act. Today, I do enjoy watching "Everybody Loves Raymond., " and Springfield--did I get the name right. Well, maybe not so much Springfield. However, in order to create laughs a lot of mild, and not so mild sex, is brought in to their shows. It's a shame that the young kids are being exposed to this brand of humor.

Bill H

I agree, Bill, but how can you mention Sid Caesar without mentioning his sidekick, Imogene Coca? Oh those two - all they had to do was look a certain way, not even say anything, and I was laughing. And good old Bob Newhart - of a later generation but what laughs he could trigger - in fact, still does. I think Imogene Coca died quite some time ago but I still see Sid Caesar once in a while. Oh gosh, then there was (and is) Dick Van Dyke. I can't think of anyone today who seems as funny as the old timers - perhaps there is one, or two, but can't think of any. Sigh.

Humor:

"Tain't Funny" "I fail to see the humor
in that."

See nothing funny today? Political Ads
got you in the dumps?

Tiger Tom

Diane, the reason I didn't mention Imogene Coca was because I couldn't think of her name ) Thank you for reminding me.
Also i called Sienfield by the wrong name. It's not Springfield.

Bill H

Bill H, I know how it goes, not being able to remember names. Right now I'm trying to think of the extremely funny young lady on Seinfeld and can't come up with a thing. Of course George and Kramer and the others were pretty funny, too.

And then there is that terrific lady on Keeping Up Appearances (or something like that) whose character's name is Mrs. Bouquet (and becomes most disturbed when she is called Mrs. Bucket!). Which reminds me of Fawlty Towers with that funny, funny man - John Cleese. This remembering is making me chuckle all over again. Terrific!

"Right now I'm trying to think of the extremely funny young lady on Seinfeld "

Elaine Benes(?)

The funny thing about Mrs. "Bouquet" is that her name really IS spelled Bucket, to her never-ending chagrin.

Amie

Oh, yes. Who but Bob Newhart could sit there all by himself with a phone in his hand and have you in stitches? And Carol Burnett!! Her shows must have improved health all over the country; she had everybody laughing! Thank goodness, she is still with us.

.. Babi

But I cant tell how many times I nearly fell off a chair or a sofa watching Carol Burnette //that was some of the funniest shows around..There are none that I can recall that are as funny now >>Thinking of it ..I really believe the comics from our past made us laugh by showing us the humor in all of our lives ..nowadays it seems the comics try to make us laugh by humiliating people Is that just me that thinks that way??/anna

Carol Burnett - what a treasure! And her two sidekicks, Tim Conway and Harvey Korman (who I think passed away recently). Oh, they did put on terrific skits. Remember Carol doing Scarlet O'Hara and descending the staircase with the drapes, rods and all, over her like a gown?

You are so right, Anna. Remember the OLD Saturday Night Live with Gilda Radner and also Jane Curtain? They were funny and I don't remember the cruelness, or nastiness, of today's version. I used to think that Jay Leno was SO clever and humorous but now he's just disgusting and unkind. Why has it come to this?

Jon Stewart? a political comic with a liberal bent. . . my style but I can't find him. . . . claire

Jon Stewart has a neat website.

http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/

Jon Stewart is on cable--The Comedy Channel--Monday-Friday at 6pm and repeated at 10pm (central time). The program is called "The Daily Show".

Howzat

I have long thought the hardest thing in the world to do is to stay funny to the same crowd when you appear every week, like so many TV commedians did/do. I think Victor Borge had the right idea when he chose to appear on TV only once or twice a year. Small children do seem to enjoy the same funny things over and over, but many of us grown-ups quickly lose interest without a lot of new material. Perhaps the most successful frequent performers are those who can wise crack and improvise constantly, even if they do have well-written material. I would have to put Bob Hope, Carol Burnett and Groucho Marx (along with Harpo) as some remembered favorites in this category.

These are some of my favorite comedians: Carol Burnett, Tim Conway, Harvey Korman, Lucille Ball, and John Ritter. I eat breakfast every morning with Mama's Family.

A few years ago I worked via a nursing agency at a children's hospital. The Three Stooges were on during the night. Some of the children whould wake up just to see them and really get very tickled. It was so much fun to see children get a little pleasure even though they were sick.

thankyou it's now eight pm here in california which would make it ten central time. so I'll look. Im not sure which number the comedy channel is but I have cable and hbo. so long now and thanks again. claire

COYOTE, I think most stand-up comics, like Bob Hope, kept their material fresh with commentary on the current political scene. There's always material for jokes there! ..Babi

If I were you, I'd call my cable company and ask them what the channel number is for The Comedy Channel in your area. I would rather think that the Daily Show with Jon Stewart would come on out there at 6 and 10 your time, since it is a faux news show and that's when other (real) news programs come on. Good luck on finding it.

Howzat

I have all of the Victor Borge tapes. I never get tired of watching them again, and they are funny each and every time.

Howzat

It's channel sixty here. I found it by just going through the whole works but I'd already missed it because it was at seven on friday. different times on different days. . . they fit it in where tthey have space. . . claire

howzat - Victor Borge was another special one. When I think of him I think of him playing The Blue Danube from upside down sheet music. Oh, what a gifted fellow he was!

Oh. Oh. Dyanne, you got me started thinking about the different skits. The one where he plays accompanyment to the opera singer--too delicious. I am especially fond of the one that featured his grandson, a tall good looking fellow who, like his grandfather, could keep a straight face. Remember the joke about Mozart? He'd say, "You know, Mozart didn't go all the way to the floor". Then he'd point to his own middle and say "Yes. Mozart only went from here up", moving his hand, with a flourish, from his middle to the top of his head. After the laughter had died down, he'd continue, "Which didn't bother anybody--except, maybe, Mrs Mozart". I wonder who sculpted that famous bust of Mozart?

Winsum, I went to the Comedy Central website and found out the program is only Monday thru Thursday.

Howzat

Winsum look at this website -- http://dishnetwork.tvlistings.zap2it.com/dishsite/listings/gridone.asp?station_num=10149

This for Central timezone

Jon Stewart is on 9:00am m-f on DishTv CMDT

Humor:

This is the last day of the Humor
discussion Kds.

Tiger Tom

I shall never forget Victor Borge in Charlie`s Aunt. Then we used it in our highschool , t`was great fun and our play was a wonderful success....this was a fun discussion...

TIGER TOM

Wonderful discussion again! Two week discussions seem to go so quickly. However, nothing says we cannot keep on laughing.

Thank you.

What is our next topic and how soon do we start?????

Thanks, Tom, for leading this fun discussion. And nice seeing YOU back again!

Thanks all,

for you thoughts and contributions.

Tiger Tom

Good discussion, Tiger Tom. Seems that most of us are traditional when it comes to humor. "Comfort humor" (read oldfashioned) is satisfying in the same way that "comfort food" is. Thanks for bringing it up so we could talk about it.

Howzat

YOU DID GOOD thanks so much for leading this discussion.. It was great and for me just to read the posts were a joy. At this time of uncertainy it is helpful to laugh and especially to recall the good old fashioned humor of our past ..thanks again...anna

Anyone look at HERMAN today?? A bit priceless!

Roseda: The next Curious Minds will begin on Nov. 16. The next topic will be announced soon here, I'm sure.

jane

Why is Curious Minds only running half a month at a time?

Howzat

I think they thought that two weeks is enough for articles to be discussed. Anyway, the next discussion will start on Nov 15th and will be entitled:

Is is Time For a Teaching Tuneup?"

an article by Mortimer B. Zuckerman in U.S. News & World Report. Do join us with your thoughts after you read the accompanying links. Do we need to make changes in what we offer in school and how we teach??

No. What I meant to point out was, we used to have a subject change twice a month in the Curious Minds discussion, with a recess during the summer. I agree that two weeks is long enough for a discussion on any topic. And, I suppose I will get used to just having one discussion each month, from the 15th to the end. But, whine-whine, Curious Minds is my most favorite discussion and I miss it when it's not there.

Howzat

Howzat says that "two weeks is long enough for a discussion on any topic."
As the Discussion Leader of a group that has been discussing The Story of Civilization for three years now, it gives me pause to think.

Robby

Tee hee! Your discussion is so fascinating and so are you that you should go on the road with that show. Hahaha!

Howzat

I had forgotten that CM changed subjects twice a month and the discussions lasted for 9 or 10 months with a summer hiatus. Simply slipped my mind when we went to this format.

Well, I hope you will still join us on the 15th of this month.

Robby, you little rascal. You know what I meant. In Curious Minds we don't go for as much depth as you folks do in "Civilization". Curious Minds is mostly opinion with anecdotal illustrations. There are very few discussion sites here at Seniornet that delve too deeply into a subject by using historical analysis.

Ann, you can bet I'll be there when a new Curious Minds starts. This new one--teaching--is sure to push a lot of buttons. Should be lively. I am always curious to know not only WHAT folks believe, but WHY they believe it.

Take care, Howzat

HOWZAT, since you appreciate a good whine, you might be interested in Fran Drescher's autobio., "Enter Whining". I found it a little slow at first, but now I'm finding it highly entertaining.

Babi

Babi, thanks for the suggestion. I see from Alibris (online book seller) that she has a second memoir out called "Cancer Schmancer". It's about her fight against uterine cancer. Oh dear, I hope she wins. Uterine cancer is so wicked and often discovered too late.

Howzat

For those who didn't understand Ann's post -- when she and I were talking at the Books Gathering in Chicago (1998?), I told her that some day I hoped that someone would start a discussion on deTocqueville's "Democracy in America" as that was a subject which intrigued me. I'm not quite sure how it happened but after she nudged me and punched me and kicked me, I finally ended up starting such a discussion.
We went through that and then moved onto "The Story of Civilization." I'm not sure how that happened either.
I wish people would mind their own business!!

Robby

I wish people would mind their own business!! (Robby)

Hoho! This, from a guy who lets himself be nudged, punched and kicked? Besides, once you start talking about it on SN, it's everybody's business! <bg>

Babi

You could have "just said no"! But I am so glad that you didn't as SOC is such a testimony to folks' interest in how our civilization has grown.

Ann:-Which civilization are you talking about?

Robby

Well, I am glad Humor is still a topic of discussion. It is already November 11 so that makes it a little longer than 2 weeks.

And Robby's remarks certainly qualify for the topic. <g>

Babi

It seems it was decided that since we were offering CM bi monthly and PBS monthly it might be best to offer each just monthly. The plan was to offer PBS sometime early in the month and CM the latter part of the month.

Of course it doesnt always work out that way. A good PBS program sometimes comes later in the month ..but as the arranger. organizer ??whatever for both it is my hope you will find time to enjoy both.

Please check out Touching the Void, the next PBS program on the 21st will be about the book and the story Touching the Void..some of you might like to read the book before we discuss the program.

Hoping to SEE you in both places..And Ann am looking forward to your discussion. anna

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.
	Should we consider changing the way we teach?? What are the considerations we must make if we do make some of these suggested changes?? Should a child start school by the age of 3, as is suggested by Montessori? Or should we be starting out by showing a child his world and his potential for learning about this world as Rudolf Steiner proposed back in the '20's?

How Times Have Changed ~ School Discipline Concerns
1940's Talking out of turn Chewing gum Making Noise Running in the halls Cutting in line Dress-code violations	1990's Drug abuse Alcohol abuse Pregnancy Suicide Rape Robbery Assault Bullying

LINKS
Click on a link and let's talk it over.

Time for a Teaching Tuneup

Remote Access, Long Distance Learning

John Dewey, the Modern Father of Experiential Education

The Waldorf Schools-A different way of teaching

Inquiry Based Approaches to Learning

Montessori FAQ's

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Ann Alden

Having reread the article which prompted me to want to discuss education and our teaching model, I find that there is much to consider here. I went looking for some other ways of teaching plus something to back what we already do in the way of remote teaching. I think that the offers of different ways are interesting and at least one of them is an active group of schools throughout the world. So, what do you think and what is your experience?? Are we testing our children into the ground and only teaching to the tests?? Would you accept a different way of approaching teaching if you could? What suggestions do you have for us (and the whole world) to improve how we educate our children to live in this increasingly technical environment? Have we lost the ability to give the gift of wonderment to a child? And what about the practicability of showing these young people in high schools how to get along in the world??

Anne... "How to get along". Sounds like a good idea. Would you call it human relations, or ???????? Also, do schools now teach "personal finance"... how to make a budget, keep a checkbook, figure your income tax, apply for a job? And how about "logic". Do any high schools have such a useful (or should I say "logical") topic?

I read the links and was very interested in the remote teaching method. So many young families are using home schooling. It seems I hear of someone daily who is giving up a job to home school their children.And when you compare the lists of problems in schools today it isnt hard to see why parents are doing this.

We have a number of private schools in our area, some church run but all excellent. This is also a choice for parents and instead of staying home and teaching the income from two jobs allows the family to place thier children in a private school.

My grandchildren old enough to go to school are in public school for now and doing very well. The parents are very involved and that is important. Sunday my 5 year old grandson celebrated his birthday and besides his cousins, members of his pre school class were there. It was a mini United Nations and all of the children interracted and had such a great time. That alone has to be good . No one in my area are bussed out since we have a diverse population and that helps to maintain a more secure environment for all. Parents are near and do not have to drive 45 min to school if needed, something I had to do when some of mine were young.

Virginia like most states have had to pass specific tests to graduate and it seems to be working. Still all the problems mentioned above have existed and that is a very sad commentary.

My husbands aunt taught in Philadelphia years ago in a Vocational HS her specialty was restaurant management which included learning to be a chef. The classes ran the cafeteria and prepared and served meals for fellow classmaetes but also learned how to do formal and informal enterataining ..the idea to encourage studenst to think of not only working for others but to think of opening their own business.

My youngest son who had a learning disability attended automobile mechanics off campus in HS and eventually became a Master Mechanic and is the Head Mechanic at a nearby county for emergency and police vehicles. He is in charge of the whole department and attends classes in state and out of state to learn new methods and new ways to manage a department. When Computers became important he was the one they sent to classes out of state to set up the departments computer system. He is 40 now and I dont know what the schools are doing in that area now.

Everyone is not college material and by that I dont mean in intelligence but in interest. I hope the schools still offer opportunities for all students to learn some valuable way to make a living.

One thing that is being talked about statewide is separating sexes in the school system. As a grandparent I am about ready to think that is a good way to go. Anyone else want to comment ??anna

What good suggestions you are making!! And practical,too. I remember offering to teach the 'food stamp families' in our church how to budget their food dollars and offered to help them with nutritious but inexpensive meals. I was turned down because it was deemed too invasive and too difficult to set up. Maybe we could start out by giving classes on these things to all students in HS.

Annafair

Separating the sexes in HS is not a bad idea. I found it empowering to see a school run by women for women. And the diffences in maturation among the sexes certainly calls for a solution. Maybe separating until senior year would be a good idea??

I do like the fact that remote teaching helps those who live in the boonies to keep up with the world and to be able to apply to good colleges when they graduate.

Most of us have heard of Montessori schools but I do wonder about the Waldorf schools and their very different approach. I had never heard of them until my granddaughter became a teacher for the Waldorf elementery school near her. She started out as a teacher's aide but quickly was asked to set up the room by the male teacher as he felt he needed someone who could offer the children a female presence. She has the room turned into a nuturing nest now and the head teacher is thrilled.

My children were lab rats for every new program that came along in the publice schools. It was not always pleasant. Fortunently, they all lived through it.

How are your schools funded in your states?? Ohio has the order from the Feds that the way they fund their schools is now going to be outlawed (property taxes) and they have spent the last three years trying to figure out what to do. So far, no solutions have come forth.

What I have hoped is for schools to offer down to earth alternatives to our students. Not everyone wants to attend college. I like the way Anna's son was able to attend an outside school and has been very successful without college. We have a wonderful vocational school in our district which addresses a lot of different ways to go out into the world with a marketable skill.

From that school, 25. years ago, came a student who had a new idea about a computerized machining company. He sold that company for 5 million dollars 22 years later so is set for life. It took lots hard work and he stuck to it.

About four years ago, I talked with a young lady who attends the nursing program at that school. She had heard about the local newspaper giving 4 years of tuition to any students who carried their paper for four years so her dad helped her deliver a big route every morning so she could apply to the fuller nursing program in the one of the local hospitals.

There is so much offered today but we don't always know about it. Maybe the parents of older children HS-age should be made aware of what's availabile in the school system by having things like info festivals during the children's earlier years.

Under 1990s please add Bullying.

I am all for kids starting their education early. The majority of parents here have their kids in Kindergarten by age 3. My grandaughter Grace began at a church kindergarten at age 2 and a half. She is four now and can read a lot of words. They really concentrate on reading for four year olds in the kindergarten.

My sons little boy Nikolas is beginning a private school in April. He goes to a Learning Centre right now to prepare him for the very academically focused private school. He attends for 6 hours a day three days a week.He is four. They do core subjects in the mornings and afternoons are swimming lessons and computer studies. He loves it. He was going away with his dad in the boat last week and brought his little homework folder with him to show me. I had minded him while his daddy went to a business meeting and then from my place they went straight to the Marina. He was going to do his homework on the boat.

I notice that here they are going back to phonetics for reading. I always thought the method of pictures and sight were ineffective. Now they learn phonetics and sound the words.

We have a comprehensive State Kindergarten system set up here. The children begin at 3 provided there is a vacancy in their school. They must make a vacancy for four year olds. There are fees but they are very small. There are also kindergartens which are language nests. They are to teach children their native tongue so the languages don't die out. They are mostly Pacific Island and Maori language nests. They have the same educational curriculum as the State Kindergartens.

I think the earlier teaching starts the better. Some parents are competent to do this at home others are not so there should be some kindergarten resource available to all children.

Young children have minds like sponges ( they just soak up knowledge) and the preschool years are very important as the children are so receptive at this age.

This is an interesting topic, but I am really out of touch with what is being taught in the schools today and the methods being used. Even my grandkids have all graduated from high school now.

I am aware of the social problems (or should I say antisocial problems) prevalent in todays schools. Dealing with these is, IMO, of urgent importance. How can kids learn anything in an environment where they are nervous, frightened, or on the defensive?

Babi

Like Babi, I have no direct contact with the schools any more. None of our grands live in the same city with us, three of them are in college, and the other three are in high school.

I am a strong advocate of the public school system. And I'm afraid that some of the things that are happening in education now will lead to a devaluation of a public school education, if not its complete destruction. It never occurred to me at the time and I cannot now imagine home-schooling our children. I feel that children lose too much of the socialization and organization and give-and-take of school life that they get in the public schools. In my opinion, children who are home-schooled don't really understand what "real life" is like, or get the experience of dealing with all kinds of people.

We have a county-wide school system that is funded by local property-taxes, with supplements from the state and federal governments. Our school board is elected from districts and the board then hires the Superintendent. Much of the troubles with our schools stems from the fact that we have three excellent 100+-year-old private secondary schools in the city. The power structure in our city and county has always sent their children, grandchildren, and probably now great-grandchildren to these private schools. I think this means that the power structure tends to tolerate the public school system's being less than it could be. Unfortunate, but true.

Ann Alden a question: How can the Federal Government tell a state how to fund its public schools? I assume it could pressure them by withdrawing federal funds if the state in question would not comply with a Federal mandate (for instance what you said::how the state of Virginia funds from property taxes would have to be changed.) It isnt right and is a gross interference of the Federal Gov't but I know that is why we have all that testing in California. Our schools definetly teach to tests and only in order to get full funding. The administration harps on the tests not what has been learned. This is not new in California. faith

Here are two article on the funding of Ohio schools. I am wrong about the Fed ordering this. It was our own state courts.

Primer

Court Firm On School Funding

It would seem that I am wrong about the Fed ordering these changes. It was our own state supreme court who did so and the changes have still not been made. I believe that they are to spread the wealth more equally around the counties. IMHO, that means that if you live in a rich county and your schools have their own pot of money, you must now share it with the poorer counties. This was also done in Georgia when I lived there and so far has been successful. This gives the state the right to collect all the school funds and then divi them up according to the number of schools or students in each county??? I must read up on this again.

Kiwi, did you read about the Waldorf schools and the Montessori? Your schools seem to fall under those two differently approached methods of teaching. What do the schools do for the those students who don't want to attend college?

Jeane

You are so right! Bullying should be in that '90's list.

MaryZ,

Sounds like your priveledged citizens must run the state, also.

Babi,

You can see why the folks with money keep their children in private schools. Its in hopes of avoiding the mess we have made of our public schools.

For kids who do not want to go to college we have resurrected the apprenticeship scheme which was thrown out by the far right Govt we had in the nineties. We are suffering from a shortage of qualified tradespeople and something is being done to address this problem. We have two types of Colleges. There is the Universities Academic and the Universities of Technology. There are many and varied courses at the Universities of Technology. Some year long courses in all sorts of occupations. There are also the private tuition groups who teach everything from Computer literacy to Home care for the elderly. Loans are available to all students to take on any one of these courses.

I think the apprenticeship scheme is ideal. It covers everything from hairdressing to plumbing and the kids are taught while they work. They get lower wages of course rising as they attain their trade exams. Most apprenticeships are 3-4yrs long. The kids attend night schools and block courses where they go full time for the theory work. Block courses are usually of three weeks duration.

Carolyn

PS Many of our schools have anti bullying programs and also some are taking up values programs like my grandaughters primary ( elementary) school. There is also a buddy system which has been set up in many high schools and there is one at my grandaughters primary school. My grandson Nikolas will be the first child in the family to attend a very expensive private school. It will be interesting to see if he grows up a better person than his cousins. I don't think it will make any difference to his character but he will certainly have a more intensive academic program than his cousins. Very small classes too. However its $300 a week to attend his school as a day pupil which is quite a lot of money. It is more when they get to Secondary level. This is just the price for the new entrants.

Carolyn

Our public schools need much more than a teaching tune-up. I heard a horror story just last week from a friend who is working in a local public school. Schools are now so afraid to harm the "self-esteem" of its students, teachers are not allowed to "fail". The lowest grade to be given is a 50. One teacher gave a test, after providing study sheets, and 85% of the class failed it. She was instructed to re-test. This time she ran the study sheet, with answers, and when re-tested, 80% failed. Some school systems are not even allowed to post honor rolls, since it would "hurt the feelings" of those not on it. Is this education? I think not. Social passing, in my book, is tommyrot. When I went to school, if you failed, you took that semester over again or did summer school. In ten years, we are going to have a glut of totally uneducated morons in our society.

It has been many years since I was in school, but I still retain so much of the knowledge that was imparted there. The school systems as a whole need to be revamped.

Our junior colleges and community colleges offer a wide selection of technical courses, resulting in certification status or technical degrees. One doesn't see the problems at this level that I see in the high schools and junior high schools. I would assume this is because the college students are there by choice, and with a specific goal in mind.

I occasionally come across articles re. how some school or another has successfully restored order and safety through this or that method or program. My question is, why are not these proven methods applied everywhere they are needed? These success stories did not involve only well-funded schools; over-crowded inner city schools showed a turn-around also.

I suspect that, as in most things, a proposed program is only as good as the staff administering it. ...Babi

My oldest grandchild is only 11 and I have two five year olds and one four, the others are 10 and 9 so I am really interested in what is going on with them.

Next year the 10 year old will be in private school here ..her parents moved here a couple of years ago but the private schools had no openings( they had been in private school where they lived) they have been really happy with the public schools the children have been attending but worry about the higher grades and so private school for one. My children and the children in my neighborhood for the most part attended public schools and did well but again much of that has to do with parental involvement.

The schools here offer special classes both for the advanced student and for those who need speacial help. We even have a school for those who have been in trouble ..fights, theft, runaways etc...and that seems to be designed to help them move on and has had some success.

Our Church started a program whereby senior members volunteered to help mentor children that needed extra help. We started with kindergarten and were asked to help all the way up to 2nd graders. To me the very sad thing was many second graders could only read a very low level. At the same time I was doing this I also was acting as a grandmother for a neighbor child who had none and would attend grandparent days at her school ..one with advanced classes. When she was a 2nd grader and I was tutoring the same grade at this other school I was stunned to see the difference in level of comprehension, Her class had a spelling list on the blackboard..very advance while the children in the other school the spelling list was very first grade or below level.

One thing I noticed ..one darling little girl I worked with in the regular school was neglected ..she was blonde although in real need of a shampoo but what distressed me the most ..while her hands were clean her arms from the wrist up were covered with a layer of unwashed skin..it looked like she had tan gloves on there.

I know the parents have to work and I dont want to throw rocks at what we have but I wonder if even the parents are involved with too much TV watching. One thing my parents had going for them ,..there was little distraction in the homes so as children we were giving attention Table conversation was lively and continuous with six of us ..

Since my one child had a learning disability we learned early to keep tv watching to a very minunum or none except on weekends..It made a difference in all of the childrens behavior and we came together as a family in our evening time playing scrabble etc.

I wonder if that is true in today;s homes?? All of my grands have access to a computer and several have their own. They have all sorts of toys that are really meant to be used by one..so where does the interaction between children and parents stand?

To me that means in school besides learning they also have to deal with interacting between the children themselves. I can see that as a real problem. anna

about public school. It would be great if we started our 3 year olds and got them focused on a product of their actions that would assist them in growing up. We have Head Start but for over a quarter of a century the results have not been significant enough to prevent the Bush administration from proposing to put Head Start under the private (religious) sector. Sometimes it seems that the over-riding factor in our society is consumption. Children recognize Elmo, not for what he said on Sesame Street, but because of advertising. So maybe a program that actually does "leave no child behind", is the way to go. I have read books published a quarter of a century ago by educational authorities in which the establishment of early classroom learning was proposed but the author acknowledged that that time slot was occupied by "kindergarten", so whenever new ideas are proposed one only has to look at the past quarter of a century or so to see that idea isn't new, only reproposed. There is a movement afoot that seems to make a distinction of "sorting" for college. This is a change from my generation that seemed to support college for all. This candid approach will make vocational education more important but where is the support for classes that will allow students to be produtive in our ever-reducing blue collar jobs? Marketing seems to be limited by market saturation. Notice the ever-more specialized food products: potato chips to ruffled potato chips to dehydrated potato chips to flavored potato chips to colored potato chips, indicative of all marketed food products. Is there job market saturation also?

Will the day soon arrive when the available jobs are saturated and new graduates can no longer be offered employment within the market and have to "create" jobs for themselves by becoming self-employed? As a matter of fact, isn't that the exact situation the US finds itsself in now?

I don't know, Kate. Your arguments are good, but... I find myself very resistant to the idea of robbing small children of even more of their years of unscheduled, unregimented freedom.

Who a child is, is pretty well formed by the age of five. I can't help but wonder if putting them into group situations demanding conformity will produce unoriginal, stifled conformists.

Don't get me wrong. I strongly believe in teaching a child obedience and respect for authority, for their own safety if nothing else. I am not endorsing misbehavior and 'acting out'. But I am not happy with inculcating an outlook that sees oneself only as a member of a group. And how can that not happen if a child spends most of his waking hours as part of a group, back to his earliest memories?

Babi

As I read the posts, I forget who said what, so I am responding without attribution. Sorry.

Property taxes are not, now, the best way to finance schools (it was in the old days when there was less population). Some kind of tax--call it a school tax--should be placed on goods purchased, or income received (both private and corporate) with no exceptions and no ceiling, or whatever, to be collected by the state and distributed to the counties based on school population, grades k thru 12, with the monies collected dedicated to this purpose (no exceptions). The amount dispensed per pupil should be factored for anything to do with educating the children, from teacher and administrative salaries to facility maintenance. All building and remodeling of schools should be financed from state general fund revenues.

The administration side of education, should be severely reduced. Most school budgets are lopsided to the extreme with "administrative personnel".

People should pay more attention to who they elect to school boards.

Teaching to the test is the worst kind of bunk.

Group think starves the imagination and the spirit.

If we really do consider education important, like we SAY we do, then we should put our money behind the effort.

Howzat

What I liked most about being in an all girls high school is that we were expected to achieve. I believe that uniforms were an income leveler and the fact that we were "scholarship" girls were not held against us. We all had the chance to blossom and do our own thing whether it was college prep, the secretarial course, or just leaving after taking our General schools certificate. I found that when I finally got to college some 30 years later, my HS education allowed me to CLEP out of courses giving me a window of college credit to allow me to change my major. Colkot

International research has determined that boys learn better by being separated from girls. They learn a different way so to have them in boys only classes they can tailor teaching to suit them. Girls are beating boys hands down in school so they are trying to do something about it. Some of our schools are co ed but have segregated classes and of course same sex schools are always popular with parents. One of my kids went to a co ed high school but the other three went to single sex schools. The single sex schools seem to have excellent academic records.

The private schools have better academic records, because parents choosing private schools have to pay, and the schools have a choice over who they let in.

The public school system is open to all, and as a consequence results are not so good, they cant choose their attendees.

My three children all attended private schools, and all went on to tertiary education, feel that has much to do with parental support myself.

I now have grandchildren in the state system, and they are all doing well, again I think because they are well supported.

There is evidence that todays children have more to learn than we ever did, the emphasis may have changed, not always for the better but there are less and less laborious tasks to do in the world, as machinary takes over the menial.

Anneo

Just joined this discussion and want to comment on something back at the very beginning -- talking about women hiding money. It isn't/wasn't just women. My dad hid money. And it had less to do with the Great Depression, although he lived through it so it might have partly, but it was more because he was sure we were living in the "last days," and that the time would come when paper money would have no value.

He bought coins (mostly gold, but some silver) and hid them under the compost heap in the backyard. As I was executor of his will, he sent me directions as to where it was hidden. When he died, I couldn't find the directions (found them after I got back home a couple of weeks later), but I remembered under the compost heap. My brother-in-law dug all over that place. Every hour or so he'd come in and say, "Are you SURE that's where it is?" I was beginning to give up hope until we found the receipts for the coins. We finally did find the money. If we'd found it when gold was high, it would have been worth over $20,000, but gold was down when we found it.

I always wondered if Daddy had thought through the ramifications of being the only guy on his block to have money to buy bread!

He also hid money in other things -- like we found a lot of coins in his socks. We had to go through every single item one by one to make sure we had found everything.

Whew, there are a lot of issues here. Ann, it will be interesting for the rest of the country to see how Ohio does with funding public education without property taxes. I sure hope they succeed.

There has to be a way to make public education more equitable. Just because a kid lives in an economically depressed area shouldn't mean that his education will be depressed also. I do not understand school finance, and state foundation formulas. Missouri's was revised 15 years ago and our district became a "hold harmless" district. We would not get less state aid than we got in 1992, but the only way to get more would be an increase in assessed valuation (I think.). Teachers' salaries have been frozen twice since then, including just this past year and now students must pay to participate in sports.

Now the formula will be revised again, by the state legislature instead of the courts. (So as not to have to pay the lawyers.) One pol said that the courts might take money from one district and give to another, but it wouldn't be done in the legislature for political reasons.

At least 10 years ago or more...Virginia voted in a lottery with the money going to education ...I have no idea how that works since we still have some problems..I suspect like most things in politics ,regardless of what is said it doesnt always work out that way..this money was not to go to general funds but to the schools.

I read all the editoral pages and anything about it because I believe when the citizen approves something and the state says this money will GO to schools than it SHOULD go to schools. By the way it was either the lottery or higher taxes. I think most felt well at least I can decide how much I want to GIVE and if it goes to the schools than that is okay with me.

Having two boys and two girls I learned very early they are truly different. I was going to give my daughters boy things and my sons girl things..but you know and I am smiling when I just realized something.>TOY guns were verboten..in my mind but my youngest son about 2-3 was sitting in his high chair eating a graham cracker. He took a bite out of it ..looked at it and held it like a gun and said bang bang..That stunned me..so in spite of my determination I eventually bought cap pistols for both boys and girls.

The graham cracker child became a hunter ..starting with bow and arrow at 15 and eventually moving up to black powder and rifles. He hunts deer each year and freezes the meat or donates it to a food bank.

I only share this because in spite of our best intentions our children are not us.He is also the child who became a master mechanic and chief mechanic for the county. And because he had a learning disability I had to fight the school system to get him into special classes..Some of his teachers treated him like he was retarded and once when I asked him how he viewed himself that is what he said. I said no you arent you just learn differently and that was the truth because he was tested at various times and in the end the school guidence counselor told me he tested at a genius level...I share this because we just cant dismiss children who learn differently. anna

Great story, anna, I especially loved your "graham cracker kid". Thanks for sharing that.

Tennessee voted in a lottery last year and started selling tickets about 8 months ago (although we don't buy them). From the beginning, it was planned, publicized, and finalized that the money would go for college scholarships for state high school students to go to state colleges and universities. No wavering, no changes, no ambiguities! And STILL, people are voting down local taxes for elementary and secondary schools, saying that there is all that lottery money. Sometimes you just can't get through.

Here in Ohio we also voted in a lottery for schools. As soon as they could, the pols changed the rules and put the lottery money into a general fund. It is my understanding that not one penny (this is since 1970) has reached our schools.

I am really impressed with New Zealand's offerings for students, Kiwi.

Saying that, I think we are all trying but when the Fed government can interfere with what the states, counties, towns decide is best for them, where does one take a complaint??

My grans in NY were raised in the Montessorie method of teaching along with whatever the "alternative community" decided might be better. They are going to be fine, one is a teacher and the other a computer consultant who is now thinking of changing his path to meet up more with his beliefs. He is looking into conservation as a starter. Yes, he is a tree hugger, but he also hugs gramas and I'm a sucker for that. Good people is what I like to see and these two are that.

As to the younger four here in downtown Gahanna, they are just starting out and have already been switched to the fast track school where they are in different programs. Well, two of them anyway. We will wait and see about the younger two. One, a kindergardener and the other, in pre school and being evaluated, as we speak, for next year's kindergarden. He's the one(age 4) who was kicked out of scout camp this past summer due to his most aggressive bahavoir and guess who spent the rest of the week with him?? Yep, 'twas me! Oh dear!

What amazes me about this topic is that when I went looking for articles about different types of teaching and schools, I found so many different viable options in education. There are folks who care and want our children to do well and have the best educations.

We've had our lottery for less than a year, but the kids entering college this fall are the first to be able to take advantage of this money. I confess that one of our grandsons entered the University of Tennessee this year, and he is the recipient of some of the lottery money (as well as other scholarship money).

When I looked over the lists last night, I thought that "cheating" should also be added. This morning's local paper had an editorial about a national survey where 92% of the high school students surveyed said they had cheated at some point in their high school career. They said a little dishonesty was okay if it would help you be successful.

In response to that, our local Chamber of Commerce put on an "ethics workshop" for high schools -- for about 77 out of 2000. What have we, in our modern society, wrought?

I loved your graham cracker story, Anna. It always amazes me how much our little ones pick up and learn just by being observant little kids. My 3 east coast grans and the 2 on the west coast see only parent selected TV and very little of that, but they are all avid readers, listeners and talkers.

The youngest learned to read before kindergarten, mainly because he was going thru a speech therapy program that emphasized phonics. (If you do "b - buh buh buh" every night for a year and a half, something sticks.) Loves the sports page. Anyway, last year, at age 7, he wanted a Kobe Bryant shirt. My daughter said "No." So of course he wanted to know why. She tried to explain as simply as possible and ended with "nobody really knows what happened." His answer was, "Well, the girl knows."

Two years ago our county voted for a 1 cent sales tax for roads and such to end in two years. It ends next month. This month we overwhelming voted for a 1/2 cent sales tax to be used just for schools to end in 5 years. The voters feel this is better than raising real estate taxes. We have a very good school board and superintentdent of schools who are concerned with improving our public schools. Although my grandchildren (ages 5 to 23)don't live in this state, we are more than happy to vote for education when we feel confident that those in charge are concerned and know what they are doing.

I think I should point out that quite a percentage of our school budgets come from fundraising by parents and boards of trustees. Every country in the world it appears suffers from a lack of funding to give top notch education. I can't remember exactly what the amount was but remembering thinking what a disgrace it was that education had to be subsidised so much. Our schools are run by Boards of Trustees which consist of parents and interested members of the Community. They do very hard work and according to one of my friends its good to have an Accountant on the board to keep tight reins on the funding. The schools are given their budget each year and have to keep to it. There is no more money forthcoming once its spent.

Carolyn

When my oldest was in school the PTA had fund raisers all the time to purchase play ground equipment , audio recording equipment ..gym equipement and it worked very well ..but we were an upper ,middle class neighborhood..some of the poorer districts wanted what we had raised so all fund raising ceased

I dont know what they do now in Tennessee since my youngest didnt attend public school but was in private kindergarten,.,.It seems the next year the schools offered kindergarten. Only through some sort of even handed tax program can I see this dilemna solved. anna

pedln: Your thoughts about learning to read before kindergarten because of phonics, fits in perfectly with the challenge of this discussion: "Is it Time for a Teaching Tune-up". I know that budgetary issues are important, but I would like to hear more about teaching techniques like pedln alluded to.

annafair, kindergarten is now in all public schools in Tennessee. I don't know much about it, though, because it's come in since my girls were in school.

HappyBill, I would be the last one to promote learning to read before kindergarten. When the little guy was a preschooler he had a very serious speech impediment. Wisely, the Seattle Public School district tries to correct such problems before the kid enters school. After Brian's parents had him tested, etc. a speech therapist came to the house once a week and then the parents worked with him every day using the lesson plans she left. This was all one-on-one, aimed at speech correction, not reading.

Whether the same techniques would work with a group of preschoolers with reading as the goal, I don't know. I agree with the others here who say let the little ones be little ones.

Several years ago I read about a study that compared children who learned to read at an early age, before entering school and those who learned in the first few grades. Later testing showed little difference in their reading abilities.

Back in olden days way before kindergartens, my grandmother did not have her seven children start first grade until they were seven years old. "Their little eyes just aren't ready yet," she said. Later, they all skipped a grade.

Even though he could read and was academically ready for kindergarten, Brian's parents held him back a year because of his speech, small size, and because his birthday was so close to the cut off deadline. He was perfectly happy with another year at day care -- did the alphabetizing and reading jobs for the daycare teacher.

Remember back some time ago when educators talked about ungraded primary rooms. The idea was it would benefit both the slow starters and the ones worked above grade level. It seems like such a good idea, but in reality, never seemed to fly. What happened?

Some of my grans have been in combo grades -- like 2nd/3rd combined. The idea there was to put high ability 2nd graders with slower third graders, but it was actually just a way to eliminate a teacher and one grade usually ended up gettng slighted.

All of our schools do have adventure playgrounds etc as standard. However the extra money is often used for remedial reading teachers, extra computers and that sort of thing.

We have playgrounds but the time spent there is very short. They have almost done away with recess. Our kindergartener complains because it is so short plus she says that teachers give all kinds of warnings about hurting yourself and being careful. This from a young lady who is very careful anyway. But she is not the only one in the class, I tell her!

HappyBill

In my older grans schools, conflict resolution and parenting were top of the list of necessities. The conflict resolution board consisted of two teachers plus 8 students and you brought your concerns to them regularly. For instance, my grandson was shoved into a file cabinet by a bullying student. They asked what happened to bring on this response. My grandson was cautioned not to answer any teasing with a blunt remark. The other kid was also counciled but those two had nothing more to do with each other. I am not sure if, in this situation, anything was accomplished as my grandson seemed to feel that he was being blamed for another student's temper. So, it works but it doesn't work.

The parenting classes were well attended and the classwork was well planned. Whether is works remains to be seen as these young people are not in their twenties and not parents yet. It does seem to me that one's parents have to on top of all this also and that doesn't always happen.

We certainly need to change this way of 'teaching to test' that has befallen us with the 'no student left behind' programs. They are not well thought out. Nor well funded! Its all well and good to attempt to see that all of our children are getting a good education but it must be well thought out and the PARENTS need to be part of it. That's a real problem since there are so many one parent homes plus two parents working situations where the schools are expected to do it all, even the parenting!

Is anyone here familiar with Marva Collins and her schools in Chicago? She now it working in the Carolinas. This is an amazing story which I hope you will all take the time to read. She was featured on either Phil Donahue, many years ago or on Oprah. I will look up a link to her. Here is it is: Marva Collins Bio

OH My Ann yes I am familiar with her work ..and what a grand job she did ..it has been so many years ,,,I would think she is very old ..LOL but then so am I>...

I dont know what the solution to relationships in school situations are..I know when I was a GS leader I broke up the cliques by the simple method of having the girls line up and call out numbers by 4 and put all the 1's in one group etc ..one little girl who had been more or less ostracized really blossomed under that regime

Of course when some tried to move into a group with thier best friends I would say well perhaps next time yuo will be with them or her..and we need to learn to be friends with all.

In the long run it was a very successful troop...and when I thnk of the 15 min recesses and the hour lunch break of my childhood when we formed lifetime friendships I wonder about children today...seems they miss out on all of the great fun I had as child because I had all those wonderful hours to play...anna

Anna they still have the recesses of 15 mins here and lunch is about 50mins. The kids all run round outside all year round except if it rains. They play spontaneous baseball, rugby and netball at lunchtime as well as tag etc.

Carolyn

I have no idea if the schools do that here but they didnt when my children attended school....and I know because I did a lot of volunteer work at the schools..what about the rest of you ??do you know if the children get recesses and play time ??/anna

Oh thank you. I've been trying to remember Marva Collins name for days. I knew she did seminal work in Chicago with so-called unteachable children--she was featured on CBS Sunday Morning with Charles Kuralt, way back there. Every time I think about "teaching" I think of her and of those wonderful "unteachable" children sitting around on the floor of her classroom (at that time she had a place to teach, and some books, but no money for any "furnishings"). The powers that be couldn't believe how these kids aced the tests.

Howzat

The fight against childhood obesity is also taking precedence in our primary schools ( elementary schools.) Kids do twenty minutes of what is called jim jam each morning its a cross between dancing and aerobics and done to pop music. Brooke says the teachers are also organising TBall games at lunch recess each day.

Carolyn

We, here in the states, also need to address obesity. Has anyone else noticed the children's ads lately where the kids are all fat????? That give us permission to continue feeding the kids fast food, doesn't it?? Disgusting!

We also need to teach proper nutrition along with feeling good about yourself but that's what we are supposed to be doing, isn't it??

Babi, yes wonderful Marva Collins! I wish there were many more like her!

This wasn't talking about Marva Collins' program, but perhaps something similar. The following is the beginning paragraphs from an article in today's Washington Times.

"Poor children who attended a premier preschool in the 1960s were more likely to graduate from high school, hold a job and stay out of jail than peers who didn't get an early education, says a landmark study that tracked the children for 40 years.

"'The bottom line is that high-quality early care and education programs not only raise high school graduation rates and test scores but, decades later, they lead to higher incomes and lower crime rates,' said Lawrence J. Schweinhart, president of the High/Scope Educational Research Foundation, which yesterday released the study of the Perry Preschool program.

"The study shows a $17 return for every tax dollar invested in high-quality early education. It also urges policy-makers to offer similar preschool programs to all low-income children.

"'America cannot afford to ignore the evidence from the Perry Preschool program,' Sacramento Police Chief Albert Najera, a leader of the Fight Crime: Invest in Kids crime prevention group, said yesterday.

"Hallmarks of the Ypsilanti, Mich.-based Perry Preschool program include its five-day-a-week classes of 21/2 hours or longer led by credentialed teachers who were paid public-school-level salaries. The program kept 1-to-8 teacher-student ratios, encouraged children to initiate some learning activities and required teachers to meet regularly with the children's families."

Pre school education is also imperative for socialisation of children. My siblings and I did not go to pre school and our interaction with children was restricted to our next door neighbours - these children we had known all our lives. It was very difficult to be put into a class with 25 -30 strange kids and I took many weeks to find a friend or join in at recess. I cried a lot at recess.

My grands parents make sure that the children begin preschool at 2 yrs old and that the school they choose has one or two children from preschool starting at the same time as my grands. They have undergone the transition to school painlessly.

Pre school is very important.

Carolyn

Carolyn -- I absolutely agree about the socialization. When I was first married, we lived next door to a couple. I think they were from Central or South America; they did not speak English very well, the husband was a lot older than the wife, he was a sailor and was hardly ever home, and she hardly ever left the house. When their little boy was 5, they had a baby. The big brother had NEVER IN HIS LIFE been away from his mother until she went to the hospital to have the baby. Now THERE'S a recipe for problems.

I was very active in church work with my children were small, especially the first two. I would take them to strange church nurseries (where they were always well taken care of), and they learned very early to get along with people and to be adaptable. My third child very nearly died when she was about a month old, and we kept her home most of her first six months. She was always very fearful of strangers. Now, I recognize that this could have been part of her individual makeup, but I think a lot of it was the lack of being with other people early on. Just an opinion.

I am so glad my daughter has socialised Grace because she still has a problem with large groups of children. She will make friends one to one quite easily. I believe if she had not gone to pre school so early ( a wonderful church one) she would be like me as she grows up as she has the same reserved and sensitive nature. I don't do crowds well but love a small group of people. Her sister is the opposite full of confidence and is a friend of everyone in her class. Kids are so different aren't they?

carolyn

Ann, glad you mentioned "Teaching to the test." I've heard teachers here say they have to spend so much time preparing kids for the state assessment tests that they don't have time to do some of the things they used to do. I think it's a shame that we've let our state and national legislatures get so involved in education -- especially when they don't fund their mandates.

I can remember million years ago, when i was a kid or very young adult, the educators in my family saying, "You don't want to Congress to get involved in education. You don't want money from them. They'll tell you what to do." How right they were. It's become so complicated that most school districts now have non-teaching personnel just to handle Federal programs.

How administrators keep up with legislation like NCLB is more than I can understand. Just knowing the acronyms is an accomplishment. But apparently there are changes every year, and just because a district passes one year doesn't mean they're in safe territory the next.

Our local paper had an article yesterday that simplifies some of the NCLB aspects.

http://www.semissourian.com/story.html$rec=150567 (excerpt below)

"Under NCLB, schools that receive federal Title I funding must make adequate yearly progress, known as AYP, on annual state test scores or face penalties such as transferring students to better performing schools or paying for extra tutoring services.

Title I is a program that awards additional federal funding to schools that have a high population of low-income students.

In 2006, Missouri will add AYP to its list of performance standards, which districts are required to meet in order to be accredited. "Right now, there are no major consequences for non-Title I schools that don't make AYP," Kemna said. "Now, their accreditation will be impacted if they don't make AYP." "

A number of people from my company have been volunteering several years at a school that is called "low-performing." We were working one-on-one with children who were reading below grade-level. Last year, the school (because of orders from on high) would not take children from over-crowded classrooms for the tutoring -- it had to be done in the lunchroom while the child (and tutor) were standing in the cafeteria line and then as the child was trying to eat. You can imagine that this was less than ideal for tutoring.

the school pulled itself out of the lowest low-performing ranking after last year's tests, but when I (as the person who coordinates all this) talked to the school earlier in this new school year, they were still not being allowed to take children out of the classroom for extra help. Instead, they wanted us to go into the classroom and tutor while the teacher was doing something else. (The idea was that the child was missing something the teacher was doing if he was out of the classroom. That's a valid point. But again, a less-than-desirable tutoring situation. How can the student be paying attention to the teacher while paying attention to the tutor, and how can that whole situation not be distracting to the rest of the class?)

Most of the teachers at this school are very dedicated and working under difficult conditions, but the turnover there is very high. (I've probably worked with four or five different school coordinators in the years I've been doing this. This year alone, one teacher was on a leave-of-absence and another quit in October.) So the question also is, why aren't they putting the BEST teachers in these low-performing schools and giving them all the help they can?

I raised a real stink. Here are these children who need the most help, here are people willing to volunteer time and come in and help, and yet that help was being denied them. We finally got resolution, and we are going to be able to go in and tutor children outside the classroom at certain times of the day. But here it is almost December before we've gotten all the kinks out.

You just have to stick to your guns in these weird situations!

Babi

When I was raising my children, we had a family move to Ohio from Missouri. One of the things that I remember her saying was that the teachers in Missouri are tested every two or three years and one of the criteria is: ACCOUNTIBILITY. Do you remember that far back?? hahaha!

Kiwi

I am personally of the opinion that children need to learn to get along at home, then in the neighborhood and then in school. I know that in our hurry, hurry world today, most women have jobs so for a child to learn to get along with others, he/she must go to pre-school and daycare. He/she can't run home when things don't go right in the neighborhood where mom will make things right again. And I know children are sponges at these young ages, but I still hate to see a child start school too soon. We have a 4 yr old grandson who is mentally 6 but emotionally 2, so I am praying that they don't accept him in kindergarden next year but return him to pre-school. Every child is different and every parent is different. I guess that's what makes the world go round.

Here's link to a site titled, "Stop Bullying Now" which I think you might want to peruse.

Stop Bullying

You may have noticed that PatW(my techie for today) has added 'bullying' to the above worries of teachers today.

And here's another one: Bullybeware

ANN, I don't know about the teachers, but accountibility (responsibility) was definitely one of the things my Dad taught his children, and I taught mine. I add another thought to that....if I have the responsibility, then I must also have the authority. I decline to accept responsibility for things over which I have no control.

I carried that principle from baby-sitting kids into the work arena. I shifted my career field when I found that I had no authority to do what was necessary to accomplish what needed to be done! I was just there to take the flak when it didn't get done.

Babi

Babi, I agree with you about accountability, responsibility, and authority. I think you took a very courageous stand regarding your work place. Authority doesn't always accompany responsibility, although it should. We hold our teachers accountable and make them responsible for educating our children, but frequently throw up roadblocks, such as an overabundance of paperwork and testing, parents who send kids to school without breakfast and a goodnight's sleep, parents who badmouth the schools and don't even try to help their kids, administrators who frown on creativity, etc.

Most of you probably get Howard Dean as a columnist somewhere in your newspaper, but in case you don't here is a link to what he wrote about public education, surprisingly in our super-conservate local rag today.

http://www.semissourian.com/story.html$rec=150787

What Howard Dean says about lotteries for places in Public schools is a system we use here. There is an out of zone allottment of places and people can ballot for them. Also children with special abilities are always able to get out of zone placements. I am in the middle of two school zones, both schools are a 5 minute walk from my house and I know quite a bit about each. Each school has many out of zone pupils because they are good schools and the population is aging here now. Although there is a trend now for young couples to move into our school zones because of the reputation of the schools so I guess in the future there will not be as many out of zone places available.

I found when my kids were going to high school where there is a will there is a way and persistence is often rewarded. I have twins - the girl twin was accepted at a single sex girls school and I applied to have her twin brother attend the boys school, they were both governed by the same body. They turned down my sons application so I wrote a letter to the board of Governors saying how unfair it was in the case of twins that one could attend their girls school and the other could not attend the boys school. My son was very upset. There was a special meeting and my son was accepted. If I had given up he would have had to go to our in zone school which was co ed and did not at the time have a good scholastic reputation. My daughter had been accepted immediately because she was a very good long distance runner. My son had a bone disease and was not allowed at that stage to play contact sports so he had nothing to offer other than he was an above average scholar.

Carolyn

I did not know about the educational savings account which is suggested by the federal government. If one decides to save money for college, he or she cannot do so until taking classes on budgeting and money handling. Its under IEA-independent educational account.

There was coverage on this program on PBS radio this morning but I have been unable to come up with anymore info about it. Was anyone else aware of this program?? I liked the idea of not allowing it before teaching how to budget your money. This has something to do with the federal education department but I can't seem to locate it there.

Here is a link to the radio program that I listened to. If you want to here, just click on the listen. IDAs

And, I stand corrected! Its IDA and might be a state program in California. Hey, I was making breakfast plus packing a lunch while listening. Anyway, it still sounds different but promising.

And here's a link explaining IDA's What are IDA's?

Why am I here on Thanksgiving Day??? Well, we are having our dinner delivered by our DIL since we have some ill kids and adults in the extended family who don't want to leave home. We are providing the pumpkin pie with whipped cream. I am missing all the excitement of everyone getting together and enjoying the delicious meal along with each other's company. Will spend the day reading and watching old movies on TV. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

A few years ago, while eating in a nearby restaurant, I saw a mother with her school-age son, during grade school hours. I thought nothing of it at the time,however, I would still see this same pair many times at the same restaurant and he seemed to be a normal young boy. After the mother and son left, I asked the waitress why the boy wasn't in school. She replied, "He is Home Taught." I have been out of touch with school kids for quite a while, so I didn't know a program like this existed.
However, I think these kids are missing out on so much. The fellowship of other students, gym, class-room projects and the like. I feel the afore mentioned are all necessary for good personality development.
Home Taught. Don't you feel this would cause a child to be an introvert? I'm sure glad I wasn't Home Taught. Of course, I'm speaking of the thirties, when all the horrors of school, as we know it today, didn't exist.
More later.

Bill H

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Bill H. I feel kids who are home schooled, while possibly receiving a good education, don't learn to function in the "real world".

Bill, my DIL home schooled all three of my son's children, but after an enthusiastic beginning she let up to the point where the children were not studying worth a flip. The oldest has already married and left home, the middle child--a boy--stopped any formal learning last year, but this last fall my son enrolled the youngest in 7th grade at a school nearby. She's as happy as a lark. She was so lonely. The boy is naturally bright and is a whiz with computers (he built the one I'm using right now) but he is introverted and displays all the characteristics of a hermit. While I'm sure that lots of home schooling is well done, but for my son's kids it has been a disaster.

A lot of home schooling is done for religious reasons.

Howzat

I know a young woman who not only home-schooled her own two girls, she served as a co-ordinator in providing schooling supplies and support for other parents home schooling. In her case, she had experience as a teacher, and so far as I could tell was doing an excellent job. She provided other outlets for social contact and physical activities. I imagine the success of home schooling depends very much on the commitment of the teaching parent(s).

In her case, the problem of 'association with other students' was precisely what she was trying to avoid. The school her children would have attended had gang problems and she did not want her girls exposed to it.

Babi

Here's a link about homeschooling: Homeschooling offers socialization

I don't agree with any of you about homeschooling when its done correctly. We have neices and nephews whose mother is homeschooling and they take many trips with other homeschoolers to museums, the zoo, the parks all year long. They also belong to a homeschooling group which plans camping trips for the families plus many other extracurricular activities.

These kids are not introverts, in any way, and seem quite aware of the outside world. Homeschooling has to be handled just right and its takes a determined set of parents to accomplish it.

With the way that the schools are going today, I fear for my four grans who are just starting out in school. Kids can't play out anymore, in their neighborhoods for fear of someone kidnapping them plus they can't wander around town as we did, without any fear. We are so lucky to have grown up when we did.

I have a neice who has four children. Two are married and living nearby but the two in high school are in so much trouble, with drugs being introduced into the small town schools plus the internet will instruct anyone on how to make methane, which is the drug of choice today, that she is beside herself. She has even called the authorities about the oldest, a girl, to get some help with her. They recommended reform school! Oh, my gosh! Glad that I don't have to face that!!

That list at the top about the worries of the '90's is serious, folks, and something for all of us to worry and pray about.

The homeschoolers here have to provide certain things for their kids and one of them is social interaction with other kids. Kids have to by law go to science classes or other classes where the home school teacher does not have the facilities to provide for the course. Science is about the only one I think which could not be done in entirety at home.

I often see groups of parents with home schoolers on day trips to interesting and educational locations and they also do swimming in the local pools or spend time on a library trip once a week.

I myself think you cannot hide your children from the world. My daughter has brought her two little ones up with great self esteem and the tools to say no and not care about what the crowd does. The eldest is 7 and already making good choices. For instance she likes home made alternative clothing rather than brands. She likes to be different and not one of the sheep. I believe this will help her when she is a teen not to be influenced with peer pressure. My daughter is doing a grand job.

carolyn

My daughter teaches art and has had a number of home-schooled kids in her classes. One boy, Xenas, was exceptionally smart and way beyond his grade in school. His mother taught piano and home-schooled him and his sister. The sister too was very smart. Xenas is now taking college courses (he is 13) as well as high school courses. He and his sister were in all kinds of activities (such as my daughter's art course) and both were very well socialized. The only time Xenas, who is small for his age, had trouble was when he first went to high school.

I think it all depends on who is doing the teaching and what the support group is. I would not have wanted to home-school my kids because I didn't have the patience.

By the way, I wonder if the world is really as dangerous as young parents perceive it. There were kidnappings when I was a kid--one especially gruesome one in Chicago where I lived at the time--and we kids were allowed to play freely outside as long as we stayed in the neighborhood. I think that it might be the constant news reports and our instant methods of communication more than it is actual threats. We all hear about the missing children, like Elizabeth Smart. And we hear about them over and over. But are there really more?

I'm glad my kids grew up in the days before parents became so hyperalert.

Different strokes for different folks. There are many reasons why parents home school their kids, but for sure, it's a real committment for the parent teachers. I like the flexibility it offers, letting the child go at his own pace, and allowing for unique experiences during regular school hours, such as being a docent or volunteering. From what I've read recently, some school districts are much more receptive to the idea than previously, allowing home schooled children to attend some classes and to participate in extra-curricular activities.

I hope it's ok to join in here. I find the discussion of home schooling very interesting. The last comment, about school districts letting students in for just some classes and for extra-curricular activities struck me. What I have seen in our community are families who "home school" because they don't want to have to deal with the rules and regulations of the schools themselves, public or private. I have family and friends who have home schooled. Some parents were competent, others were absolutely not. A relative homeschooled her children until they were all old enough so she didn't need childcare for the youngest any more. Her oldest daughter was allowed to take a couple of courses in high school, but only for part of the day - the reason being the parents were afraid of something like Columbine occurring. Why part of the day was acceptable but not all of it I didn't get. When the youngest was old enough for school, all 5 children were then put into the public schools.

What sticks in my mind, from my own children's school days, is the image of a beautiful fall day when a young boy came to my door to sell Boy Scout popcorn. My kids were all in school, and I asked this boy why he had the day off. He said he was home schooled and using it as an opportunity to sell the popcorn - unsaid was that he had the freedom to go when othr boys could not.

Full-time students in our high school cannot miss any part of a school day except for an appointment with a doctor/dentist, in order to participate as a player in a sport or other such event. But home-schooled students can do whatever all day, there are no limits on them - then they can participate in the activity. Also, a D can mean a student is suspended, an F cannot participate in sports - but how can that be monitored with home schooling? How fair is it to the other students who must follow all the school rules?

Our state has no real regulation of home schooling, other than the parents need to advise the district that they are doing. Parents who have a student who is absent too often can avoid truancy laws by just advising they will home school from now on. The ultimate test is when the student needs to move on to a job or college - some do very well, others...

N

Sometimes homeschooling is a necessity. My sister had five children and couldn't get the school to understand her daughter's ADD problem until she was in high school. To help her through her last year in school, my sister homeschooled. Now, the Indianapolis Public School System, gave her permission to do so and also told her where to get the texts and supplies necessary for that year. When testing was indicated for a class, the school did it. Another approach. Hmmmmm! Well, her daughter gave up on passing the tests and ended up getting her GED instead.

Home schooled kids here have to follow the National Curriculum and have inspections by the Education Board from time to time just like any other institution. I believe they have a residential camp once a year too to get together with other home schooled kids.

Carolyn

I sure don't wish to disagree with any of you folks who believe home schooling is OK. But I suppose I will ) I would not favor it for any physically or mentaly healty child. I would have missed the camaraderie of my fellow students and the very good friends I made that lasted into adult hood. I was the god father for first born son of one of these classmates long after we graduated high school.
But back to grade school age. We kids enjoyed the games that we played on the way home from school. For example, we would play marbles in the ground between side walk and street and spin baseball cards trying to match the cards that were already on the ground. The class picnics that were held every year at a large amusement park (Kennywood Park) brought parents and students together for a royal grand time.
In high school, I really enjoyed the Friday night dances that were held at a pavilion very close to the school. Of course there was no alcoholic beverages served. Just soft drinks. And I sure would have missed walking the pretty young girls home from school, but I let them carry their own books ) Some Friday nights on the way home from school I would ask one of these pretty young girls to go to the movies with me and 99% of the time she would answer in the affirmative. How about Prom Night?
I guess I'm trying to say this makes for good character development. However, I'm speaking about a bygone era when narcotics and class room shootings were nonexistent.
No. I'm sure glad I wasn't home schooled. How boring.

Bill H.

Bygone era, indeed, BILL. The comparison of school discipline concerns for the 40's and the 90's in the heading says it all.

Babi

At least one of the problems I'm aware of is a general breakdown in discipline. Children are allowed to threaten teachers, talk back to teachers, swear at teachers, and in general behave in ways that we would not have dared.

Parents storm the school if their precious child (no matter how criminally inclined) is punished in any way. There was a time when parents assumed that the school was right and the student was wrong. Parents supported teachers. And, of course, the principal. If you got in trouble at school, you got in trouble again at home.

Seems that is no longer the case.

Deems comment seems to indicate that a lot of the problems lie at home and with the parents. I'd certainly have to agree that that's a factor.

How many of you folks favor Home Schooling over public or parochial schools, or vice versa. And why do you favor your particular choice. I guess I'm just trying to find out how popular Home Schooling is.
Now, I can see this if a family lives so far away from a public or parochial school that it would create a hardship on either the student or the family.

Bill H

UGH!! I hate it when that happens. Now, I forget what I said!!
Well, as to Bill's question about preferred schooling, I think each person would have to decide on that according to the child involved plus the parents. I have no particular preference since I believe in "to each, his own".
We had such a wonderful time when I was growing up. We,too, played coming home from school but my brother and I lived the farthest away from school so couldn't wait to be allowed to ride our bikes. We started very early on and we didn't have to worry about someone stealing our bikes from the racks at school. Brand names were mentioned like Schwinn but most of us rode whatever our parents provided us with. Now brands are what everything is about.
We built forts in each other's backyards, carts for pulling with our bikes. One summer we even put skate wheels on a coal bin door and propelled ourselves up and down a paved alley in our neighborhood, pretending to be Huck Finn and Jim. Life was just so much simpler then.

We have tied the schools' hands when it comes to discipline and parents don't want anyone correcting their children. Not true in all schools or by all parents but it doesn't take much to change the norm. LIfe seems to have really become complicated for today's children.

experience with the high school children here in our little burg of Gahanna, Ohio. I belong to a writing group at our senior center and once a year, the writing class from the high school, visits us and we talk about our writing and share our stories. Also, once a year we publish a magazine with articles all written by the seniors and the teens and they do the same at the high school. This an extra class for these young folks but they all seem to enjoy the interchange and I know that we do. They have a meeting in the Spring that we are invited to attend where they read some of their writings. They are just a delightful group and seem to be headed in the right direction.

I would agree wholeheartedly with the above post. This must be the most undisciplined younger generation for many many years. In a world of instant gratification (by parents also) children have no concept of self discipline and woe and betide those who thwart them! Even in the days my kids attended school there were parents who stuck up for their kids instead of getting them to take their punishment like a man ( or woman). I even knew parents who hired top lawyers to save their guilty kids from criminal convictions. I told my kids if they broke the law I would support them but expect them to take their punishment. I would not fight to get them off the charge.

Carolyn

We are posting at the same time and I believe that you are commenting on my first post. Hahaha! Too funny! What time is it in your part of the world?? What day is it??

Yes, we do have a sad lack of discipline in this world and we are paying for it in many ways. What ever happened to setting limits for children?? We seem to have forgotten that they need that more than anything else.

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I think people should be able to make their own choices. On the other hand, if the richest or smartest people take their children out of the public schools, then education for the masses will get even worse -- and that does not bode well for the future of the US.

On another hand, if the schools aren't meeting the needs of children (either because of physical or mental disabilities), then parents have to get that for their children somehow. One of my grandchildren is dyslexic, and the people at his school (when he was in the second, third, fourth grades) told my daughter, "We can't give him any help until he fails." They told her this on several occasions. They eventually moved, and the children are in a different school system.

Finally, I think children need to be around all different kinds of people -- different racial and ethnic groups, different religions, different philosophies about life; they're not going to be protected from all that when they grow up. Parents need to prepare their children -- that can be done at home, as someone pointed out earlier, but it is my observation that most of the people who opt for home schooling are very closeminded toward all those kinds of differences and are not likely to offer the right kind of preparation. It's kind of like children who never are allowed to eat sweets as children, or girls who were not allowed to date, or whatever -- I know so many like that who now overeat to the point of obesity or who become promiscuous or whatever to excess.

The fact is, I've got a son and daughter-in-law who homeschool. I love my daughter-in-law, but I cannot imagine that she can give those little boys anywhere near the education they would get in the public school, especially the kind of accelerated curriculum that kids get today. I didn't learn algebra until I was in high school (and some might say, not incorrectly, that I didn't learn it THEN!). Kids are learning it in middle school now, and sometimes earlier than that.

Having said all that, I guess my feelings aren't as mixed as I proclaim. My own personal preference is the public school system.

No question in my mind at all. I'm a definite advocate of the public schools. Some of the problems with our local school system is that there are three 100+ year old private schools (not church related) here, and most of the children and grandchildren of the power structure send their children to these schools. To me, this means that they (the power structure) aren't as committed to excellence in the public schools as they should be. It's the responsibility of the entire community to support the public school system in every way possible. If these schools are not up to par, it's the fault of the entire community. It really burns me to hear somebody say, "I don't want to pay taxes to support the schools. I don't have any kids in school. My kids are grown and out of school." If the public schools are allowed to fail completely, we are ALL in very big trouble!

(Gee, Mary Z, why don't you tell us how you really feel about this. VBG)

Ann at the time I am now posting its 5pm on November 30th - Tomorrow my eldest son will be 37. Seems like yesterday he was a babe in arms. He has two little boys one of whom will start at a very expensive private school next April. There are small classes and high standards expected in manners, discipline and academic achievement. However the fees are astronomical!

There are private schools springing up like Topsy here. They are either Fundamentalist Christian schools or Schools which aim for small classes and academic excellence. Also I am sorry to say to isolate children from what is considered to be the "lower class". I hope my grandson will not be a snob when he grows up!

Carolyn

PS I am all for public schools! There are two very good ones and I am in the middle of these two zones. Properties are being snapped up here because of these schools. It is all due to parents who care and put money into these schools that they have attained high standards. Much fundraising is done by parents.

All kids at all schools here pay school fees. They are supposed to be voluntary but woe and betide those who do not pay! The schools in the affluent areas have quite high school fees but they are still public schools. They use the fees to provide more teachers for things like remedial reading or to provide teaching aids like more computers per classroom.

The poorer areas have low school fees but of course they can't buy as much which is why many have resorted to Corporate sponsorship. Thus we have schools named Mainfreight Intermediate and Southern Cross Campus. Southern Cross Campus is a three tier campus. Elementary, Intermediate and High School all adjoining one another. It is in our poorest area and really is "State of the Art". There is now great pride in this Campus and kids are doing well despite coming from low socio economic homes.

Yes since Globalisation we have poverty not seen here since the thirties. My friend went collecting for Charity one day and was assigned to an area she never knew existed in this now affluent city. It upset her so much. Thirty per cent of our kids live in poverty so its crucial the public schools deliver so that these kids get a chance at a good job and a good life when they grow up.

Carolyn

kiwi lady -- You said, "Also I am sorry to say to isolate children from what is considered to be the 'lower class.' I hope my grandson will not be a snob when he grows up!"

That's where grandparents come in!

The support for public schools is strong and supportive. Does anyone disagree with Songbird about the importance of grandparents??

I know I am one busy grandma with the four who live three miles away. They spend at least one day a week at our home. What I found witih my own grandparents was non-jugdemental time. We can't solve all of their problems but we can LISTEN!! We moved back to Ohio in 1998 (after spending 18 years in warmer climes), just because we wanted to be part of their lives. At this point in time, the grans and I are dressing their favorite stuffed animal. Nothing serious here, just using the leftover fleece from other projects that I've made down the years. The one thing that always stands out in my mind is that they are there, in the sewing room, discussing the clothes and whatever else enters their minds. Its good time spent!! This week they will be helping me decorate the Christmas tree and the rest of the house. I keep them busy when they are here.

I do think that some folks complain about high taxes that are supporting the schools but someone paid for my children to get an education. It does take a village!!

I agree about not being judgmental, but I think we have to be intentional in talking about our values. As I look back on the way I parented, that's the one thing I regret -- that I didn't talk more about my beliefs and values. I mean we took our children to church, and I think we talked a lot about our Christian beliefs. I'm talking more about things like prejudice and social justice, political ideals, philosophies of life, things like that.

Fortunately (and maybe this is the only real way it works), my children "caught" them, on the whole. (I say "on the whole" because as a liberal Democrat, I am sad to report that one of my children is a fundamentalist Republican! There are very few subjects on which he and I agree. But he listens patiently to my arguments -- and I listen to his -- and every now and then, one of us convinces the other of some minor point.)

But if I had it to do over again, I'd spend more time talking about those things that really matter to me.

I think you're right, Songbird, we do need to articulate our beliefs to our children and grands. It does get through, obviously, from their watching our actions - but verbal reinforcement should certainly make a strong impression, too...even when they get to that age when they shut out everything we say. 8^)

I agree with teaching our children about compassion for others and generosity to those who have less than ourselves and most of all how important our taxes are for providing for these people.

Unfortunately I too have one extreme right wing son. He was brought up in home where helping others was very important while there was also a strong work ethic. I think as he is so affluent he has lost touch with his roots. I find he is very judgemental about the poor and has lost touch with reality and has not got a clue what it is like to try to make ends meet on minimum wage. I have got to the stage where I will not discuss politics with him.

As far as education goes my son can afford an exclusive school for his children and instead of trying to improve the local school ( which is not that bad) he is going with the private system.

As the number of parents who choose private schooling for their children rises so the standard of our public schools will fall.

Carolyn

So you are already celebrating the 1st of Dec while we await midnight on the 29th here in downtown Gahanna.

I guess I don't quite understand why the parent who chooses the private school hurts the public schools. We all pay real estate taxes here and part of that money goes to the public schools. None can go to the private schools here in my state. Does one get vouchers in NZ and then apply it to the private school of choice as tuition??

Songbird,

I do agree that we should be making our beliefs known to our children in one way or another. My children pretty well knew where my husband and I stood, even when we didn't stand together on certain topics. IMHO, example is a powerful tool!

Ann the reason there are many good public schools is that they are funded quite substantially by fundraising and by parents contributions. By going Private the parents are not donating to their local public school. I should mention that Private schools here receive substantial amounts of taxpayers money so my son cannot say he is not getting his share of taxes. Its our egalitarian society where the rich also get benefits in certain areas such as being able to access free hospital care and Private schools getting taxpayers money also. The exhorbitant fees in Private Schools go towards attracting our best teachers by offering really high salaries, providing state of the art buildings and equipment and very small classes.

Carolyn

In my community almost all the private schools are church-connected and their salary schedules are usually a notch or two below the public school district.

My children are products of both private and public. They attended private, out of necessity, when we lived in Puerto Rico. I was happy when we moved back to the States and they could attend public school. The private school teachers don't always have to be certificated and while they had some good teachers in PR, there were other times I thought the teachers were just picked up off the street. When we lived in Nashville for a few years I had a friend who got a job teaching at a private prestigious girls schools. She was teaching subjects not in her areas of expertise.

The choice of where to go depends on the situation and the kid. When my Seattle grandson was to start kindergarten he was going to be put in either a Spanish or Japanese language immersion class. Kids with older siblings in the school got first choice, so he went into the Spanish class. My daughter said if it had been Japanese, she would have put him in private school. (If I'd been running it I would have asked for parental choices and gone from there.)

My Seattle granddaughter is in Middle School and the school district there has a complicated method of school choice. My daughter was concerned that the school she got in was not very academic. My answer to her was to try it for 6th grade and if it didn't work out I'd help out with private school for the next grade. Things are going fine and the child is very happy where she is. My daughter's neighbor is a teacher and said told her, "If you're going to invest money in private school, middle school (grades 6, 7, is the place to do it."

Kiwi, you said something about isolation, and I surely agree with you. My Seattle grands see plenty of diversity, but my DC kids do not. Their schoolmates are all from the same economic pie and I worry that they will think everyone lives with two cars, their own bedroom, and has music lessons. I about dropped my teeth last summer when my DIL told me the parents collected and gave the band teacher a gift of $800.

When parents place their children in private schools, they remove their own involvement in the public schools. Parental involvement is important for quality schools. Parents can push the schools to be better, but if they instead walk away from the schools, that push is lost. Often those are the parents who could be most effective, who have the means to contribute their time as volunteers or at school board meetings.

All of your answers really point out the differences in your particular area of the world and they have point well made.

nlhome, I see what you mean when it comes to putting children in private schools. Each state does do things differenly and that is their right. And, having been a volunteer in parochial and public schools, I actually preferred the public school. Due to budget limitations, the parochial school suffered from a lack of choices. The public school, a middle school, was trying a different type of classroom teaching, and there I was, helping in a math class experiment again and not liking it one bit. I did do an evaluation letter to the school board and curriculam chairman and that nonsense was changed the next year. So, I was able to be there for my children because I was a stay-at-home mom--yes, lucky me, I know!!

Sadly, now that we are up and running after the holidays, I have to shut this discussion down as this is its last day. You have all been most gracious in posting your experiences with the schools in your areas and I have really enjoyed leading this topic of dicussion. Hope you will join us in December when I believe Annafair will be with a change of venue.

If you aren't discussing anything at this time, why not come and join in our holiday offering of Dickens' Christmas Carol which has an etext link for reading along and talking about the author and his first book. Happy Holidays to you all. Dickens' Christmas Carol

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