Curious Minds ~ 2003 September Export

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion

PRIMARIES 2004
THE ROAD TO THE WHITE HOUSE
Do you feel the primaries start too soon?

How much of an influence do the early primaries have on the outcome of those held later?

Would it be practical to hold all of the primary elections within a few weeks of all the states?

Please express your feelings about one voting procedure being adopted by all the states.

The Democratic Primaries

About Elections and Voting

Rules of the Primary Elections

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Bill H

First Post for Primaries 2004

Books Main Page | B&N Bookstore

Diabetes,

What I knew when I was young it was known as "Sugar Diabetes" It was believed that Sugar was the main culprit.

Today, of course, we know that there is Type I Diabetess know as "Juvenille Diabetes" and requires Insulin shots at least three times a day and Type II, "Adult Onset Diabetes" Controlable with medication and at times just exercise and Diet.

There is much to know about Diabetes and it is a continuing education. I have been diagnosed with type II Diabetes for a few years but am certain I had been Diabetic longer than that. I simply did not know what to look for or what symtoms would lead me to believe I was Diabetic. Took a Nurse who noticed something and brought in a Blood Sugar Meter and checked my Blood Sugar, it was very high 450. 96 is average and tolerable limits are 96 - 120. I was Diabetic for sure. Had that Nurse not spotted that something I would still be unaware of my Diabetes and would still be eating everything that is bad for me.

What symtoms are there that might show up: A sore that won't heal, frequent trips to the Bathroom at night, those of the two most obvious ones. There are others that remain unknown to me.

What are the dangers of Diabetes? Well, Johny Cash just died of complicatons of Diabetes. That is the BIG danger. Others are Blindness, loss of limbs, internal problems, confiment to a wheel chair. DEATH.

What does one have to do if one is Diabetic. Take care, watch ones intake of Sugars and Carbs, exercise, measure Blood Sugar daily sometimes frequently during the day. Be alert for possible Low Blood Sugar which can cause one to black out. If low blood Sugar occurs one should drink a glass of Orange juice of something like that.

People with Type I Diabetes have it a bit harder than those with type II. They must monitor the Blood Sugar several times a day and enject Insulin after each meal. Many wear an Insulin Pump which keeps the insulin level in the Blood even as much as possible.

For Seniors, Type II Diabetes is the most common unless one has been Diabetic for most of ones life.

I was surpised to learn that even Dogs can be Diabetic.

I hope that we have an interesting discussion and many participants.

There is a Diabetes discussion in the Health Matters folder already and I am hoping that the participants in that discussion will give us the benefit of their experience and knowledge.

Tiger Tom

Links,

I do hope that you will click on the links they are very interesting and informative.

Tiger Tom

Jan Steen
The Doctor and his Patient
Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion

Topic Source
Clinical Diabetes

Physical Disabilities and Aging-Related Complications of Diabetes

SeniorNet's Healthy Aging Center

Health Matters Diabetes Discussion

Click on the link and let's talk it over.

Diabetes is a stealthy, silent condition that can lead to Blindness, loss of limbs, even death. Its symptoms are subtle. Many people are diagnosed with Diabetes by accident, a lucky accident, if early. Diabetes controls one's life to a large extent. Limiting what one can eat, using proper care when travelling, injecting Insulin three times a day, constant care of the feet, and daily monitoring of Blood Sugar often three or more times a day.

Those who do not have Diabetes frequently do not understand it and what requirements a Diabetic has. Offering a dessert may seem a kindness but by doing so one may be putting the Diabetic at risk. When a Diabetic asks for a special menu at a dinner party he/she is simply guarding his/her health.

There are two types of Diabetes" Type I which requires Insulin shots and is known a Juvenille Diabetes and type II which can be controlled by medication, exercise and attention to diet and is known as Adult Onset Diabetes. Both can be deadly.

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

This promises to be a very interesting and informative discussion.

Two people in my family, that I know of, are/were afflicted with Diabetes. I do know a good deal about it, however, something puzzles me, and maybe it will come up in this discussion.

It is a question about the difference in "numbers" on the Blood Sugar Meters (U.S.A vs. Canada).

Your system seems to have very high numbers. Here, ours start at what is "LO" and reads upward from number 1. The desirable reading should not be above 5 or 6. For instance, if you had a reading of 450 (my Goodness!!) what would be the equivalent in Canadian numbers.

I wonder if anyone here can address this question?

I've wondered the same thing. My son rents an apartment from some friends in the UK, and he is a noncompliant diabetic. His first blood sugar test showed him to be at 32!

I'm wondering if it uses some system similar to that used for our HbA1c tests. Those tests are to determine the average of our blood sugars over several weeks' time. As y'all already know, we're cautioned to try to keep ours below a 7, and that 6 or lower is even more preferable. My readings for the last 4 years have been in the 5.x range. So, I'm very thankful for the medications and the precautions that my health practitioners give, and that I have been able to follow them.

About those HbA1c readings, as I understand it, for each rise in the number, it means double the risk. Imagine doubling one's risk when we go from a 6 to a 7, then doubling that again from a 7 to an 8, etc.!

I told the story recently of a friend of mine who has always been noncompliant - he has lost his balance and is too proud to use a cane or walker, has lost the use of his right hand (and he's right handed), etc. When we discussed blood sugar readings, it turned out that his last HbA1c had been above 11!

So, even though it's sometimes difficult to walk this tightrope to balance food, deal with emotions and their consequences, avoid stress (which seems to be impossible to do these days), etc. I'll still gladly do my best to follow the teachings, take my medications, test regularly, and remain as healthy as possible.

Imagine how difficult it must have been for diabetics prior to the discovery of insulin!

Ruth Ann

Prancer,

I am not sure about the numbers. My Blood Sugar Meter registers in high values than does yours. Still, the Manual that came with it, and other material I have, uses those higher values.

So, this morning my Blood Sugar was 105, a good reading according to my meter.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

As seen here, Ruth Ann Bice seems to have a very good description of how the systems differ. She is doing very well. Congratulations Ruth Ann!

I monitor mine, just in case, as my Maternal Grandmother was on Insulin most of her life. Her one great wish was "Before I die, PLEASE, someone let me eat just one chocolate!" She actually died of a broken hip. Perhaps the Diabetes contributed to bone problems as well? I haven't looked into that but it may come up in this discussion.

When I read my numbers, they are usually 4 or under that. I don't think I have to be concerned unless there is a sudden increase.

Oh yes. Something I meant to ask (if someone has had the same experience). Has anyone found that some brands of Meters become obsolete because they no longer make the testing strips for that Brand? We have had that experience here.

Good discussion and I am anxious to read all of the posts!

I'm not certain about the rest of our bones, but I heard on an early morning news show recently that diabetic women are vulnerable to foot fractures when they are about age 65.

Well, I'm 63 and two years ago spent 8 months recuperating from 3 broken bones in my right foot. It's fine now, but my goodness, I got mighty tired of walking around with that heavy up-to-the-knee plastic cast on.

I was mighty thankful, though, that I could sit and shower without it on. That would have been a mess, since my right leg is to the back side of my bathtub. How in the world would I have hung a plaster cast out the bathtub...<wry grin>

Y'all keep the good comments coming. This is a good discussion, and I want to thank you Tiger Tom for leading it.

Ruth Ann

Tiger Tom

My deceased husband had diabetes, was on insulin twice a day, and from the time he was diagnosed with the disease, he refused to admit that he had it, and made excuses for everything that went wrong with his physical condition for the rest of his life. Talk about denial! He refused to give himself the insulin shots; I learned how after practicing on oranges; I was able to test his blood sugar for him, but he did agree to the urine tests, thank Heaven. The poor man knew he had diabetes but just didn't want to admit it.

It was only after he broke his hip and the doctor told him that he had to realize that he must do much of his health requirements himself that he began to cooperate a little. After that it was easier, and then we found a wonderful nurse/practitioner at the clinic who did nothing but care for diabetic patients who spent a lot of time with my husband, and who taught him how to take care of his feet, to try to compensate for different starches, and so many things he hadn't understood.

I wonder if more clinics have this feature---a full-time nurse or Physician's assistant who sees only diabetic patients. They are really most helpful.

Lorrie

I'm a Type 2 diabetic and have been for several years. I never did understand how to regulate my meals or how many carbs to have. I finally found a place to go to that medicare paid for. It was for 3 months and they thought you how to eat with real meals, how to count carbs and each of us did not have the same carb intake. According to your weigth and body build these specialists fixed up your diet for you. I eat just about anything I want to. Like I can have 45 carbs for breakfast and dinner and only 30 for lunch. I can have 15 carbs in between bfast and lunch and dinner. I've learned that fruit is the best in between meals for me as it stabalizes my number. The last time I was checked in May it was 5.5 which is more or less normal. They don't want you to go over 7. I check 3 times a day, before Breakfast, before dinner and before I go to bed. I'm 73 and I walk 30 min twice a day which keeps the sugar under control . I take the lowest pill you can get . I've learned now without my papers in front of me how to manage my diabets. Starting Sept 23 i will be attending a six week seminar on diabetes. Some of it is the same but there is alot you can learn by going to one. We also have a meeting once a month for us. It helps others and we try and help each other. Taking care of your eyes is one of the main things and you need a good specialist to check to see if there is anything happening behind the eye. This is where the problem will start with diabetes and so far I 've not had any problems. If you keep diabetes under control , like 90 to 120 your eyes will be in better shape than if you go from 120 to 180 or over that. Remember that only you can help to keep yourself in control of your diabetes.

Tiger Tom and all,

I am taking a Diabetic Education class right now (having trouble getting back in control after surgery). And they told me that they now recommend taking your Blood sugar reading before breakfast, before dinner, one and one half hours after dinner, and before bed as the mim.

They recommend the before readings (USA) 80-120, and the after the meal readings (USA) 140-180.

This is different than they taught me in 1999 - so you have to keep going to classes, etc. and keep learning all along. A man in the class was argueing a lot. His reading have been 500. And he still thinks he knows what he is doing, lol.

It seems every diabetic person I meet tells of a food that works for them and does not work for me. Like French Fries - they raise my BS up and let it drop like a rock.

So I experiment. I try a bagel, bream cheese, and strawberries to high; so I try 1/2 bagel, cream cheese and strawberries. I just keep trying until I get it where I want it. My HbA1c have been in the 5. range (oh and by the way they should be done every 3 months).

Even with such good results I have side effects from the Diabetes. So don't let it slide; keep on it every day!

Francy Lou

Lorrie, I'm sorry your hubby had such a difficult time agreeing that he was diabetic. I found WONDERFUL benefits from feeling so much better once the diabetes was diagnosed and then I began trying to be compliant. It was like the difference between night and day for me.

Kittiekat, you're doing GREAT! Isn't it interesting how we all must individualize our diabetes care, yet we all have guidelines that help us.

Francy Lou, you're also really doing well. And, your interest in food makes our diabetes discussion in the culinary arts area quite a great place to go to learn new recipes that may fit our needs.

Again, Tiger Tom, thank you for caring so much that you're hosting this discussion.

By the way, my b/s this morning was 85 - last evening before supper it was 80 and about 2 hours afterward it was 145. I was puzzled as to why it was so high until I checked my medication holder for the day - yep, forgot my suppertime medication, so ate a very small amount and took the meds. Ooops!

Ruth Ann

All,

My Blood Sugar was 95 this morning, good reading.

I am going to start taking my Blood Sugar count three times a day as long as this discussion goes on. Doctor had told me I only needed to take it once a day, in the Morning.

Carbs. I still am not too sure about them. I am a Meat and Potato;s kind of guy. Raised on that type of food and can't break the habit this late in the game. Also eat about four slices of Bread a day.

Lots that I DON'T know about Diabetes. Perhaps that is because I think I have a mild case of it and don't really have to control it that much. I understand that is a bad attitude to have.

Hope all is well today.

Tiger Tom

Weight and Diabetes,

My Brother and his wife who are both overweight, (he weighs about 350 and she about 200) are not Diabetic. He eats anything that doesn't get of his way quick enough. Inhales candy and Marshmallows. She isn't far behind.

I have repeatedly measure their Blood Sugar and it is always normal. About 96 each time. This is before and after meals.

My mother is the same, overweight, eats what she wants and is not Diabetic.

Me, I was 160 when Diagnosed and am about 150 now.

So, I am not sure that weight is an indicator in all cases.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom - does not matter if it is mild. It does damage to your heart, nerves, kidneys, eyes - I don't know what all. So be careful - so you don't suffer the consequences.

I have neuropathy, problems with balance, falling down. So far my eyes, heart and kidneys are fine.

I forgot to say I am type II - so the type I have different times they need to take their readings (this is me saying this, so I could be wrong).

Tiger Tom

It is my understanding (could be wrong, too) that weight doesn't play a part in GETTING Diabetes but weight does play a part (once you are Diabetic) in keeping it under contol.

I'm going by the fact that my Grandmother, like myself, for her lifetime, weighed only 99 lbs. "all wet", as the saying goes... and she was Insulin dependant. But, in those days, I don't think there were the modern drugs; thus the Insulin, which maybe makes it sound more serious than it actually was. Interesting question and one which I have never mulled over.

It would be nice to have her to speak with right about now.

Prancer,

I don't think it is the weight, Per Se, but the fact that overweight people seem to consume a lot of the wrong foods and too many sweets.

Tiger Tom

I don't have diabetes, but am interested in the disease because I do have high/low blood sugar, which sometimes sets a doctor worrying that I might actually have diabetes. I have often been told by doctors that keeping weight down can help prevent the adult onset type which I think is the kind where the body doesn't produce enough insulin, but does produce some. It only makes sense a smaller body would need less. I understand this is the reason people blame our nation's tendency to overweight for the increase in this kind of diabetes. Personally, I kind of wonder if our nation's decrease in activity for kids, particularly having them walk to school and play outside after school, doesn't contribute to both the obesity and adult onset diabetes.

Ben,

Interesting questions.

Tiger Tom

I was going to ask what the accepted normal reading were for BS, but a few of you have already stated what the normal reading(s) should be.

Bill H

I have just read all of the posts here. One of the thoughts that came to me was at the mention of insulin and its discovery. It reminded me of an episode of Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. That time setting of that series was before insuling was discovered. One of the characters in this particular episode had a sore, infected leg that couldnot heal. Later on in the show he had symptoms of sweating, pallor, etc. The good doctor grabbed some candy from a child and treated him for insulin shock. Since there was no insulin this diagnosis was not possible. It had to be Diabetic Coma. One of the few times I wanted to write to TV producers. Someone must have caught it because as far as I know that episode has never been shown again.

Yes , I think I remember that but am Not sure. It is so good to see you posting on that as it may save someone's life who is reading this as being a Retired nurse you certianly know about all this. Thanks for this post.

Hope to meet you in Florida this winter as I become a snowbird for a short time. Smile.

Your friend, Ginger

Thanks. Ginger, for your kindness. I am ashamed to say that I have forgotten the differential symptoms of diabetic coma and Insulin shock. I cna remember when we did the urine tests to determine the need for insulin. Now it has become so easy to do blood sugars, but there must be an awful lot of sore fingers. Like those commercials say that develop the new monitors. I know there were times when it was so hard to stick the fingers of some people and get enough blood.

When my daughter aged 7 developed diabetes, I feel that nothing could have triggered it. She is an identical twin and I was told at the hospital where she was treated that her twin sister had 100% chances of having it too. She did at the age of 21. They are now 46. The daughter who had it first had retinopathy about 12 years ago and she lost one eye and the other eye at the time was also affected, but the Ophthalmologist saved it using laser therapy. She is is a nurse.

Please Benjamin, if you have high blood sugar, then your pancreas is not functioning properly and at one point you might develop the full blown version. It is a serious desease that few people understand the risks involved. It is imperative that you get that blood sugar down. You should check it often and keep off refined foods such as white bread, and sweets. Losing your eyes or your limb is not worth eating that stuff.

My two sister have diabetes, but I am spared. I guess the genes were not there for me. I thank God for that.

Eloïse

Eloise,

You are so right. Few people realize how serious Diabetes is. Deadly serious.

Like me, I presume that most people simply know nothing of Diabetes. I have been diagnosed as Diabetic for a few years and I still don't know as much as I should.

Just knowing the risks could help as it would encourage people to be tested and who knows a few might find themselves Diabetic and start treatment.

This is a silent ailment with few outward symptoms. I felt fine and was ejoying a lot of things that I had missed in my years overseas. I don't consume those things anymore and while I miss them, it is better that I don't. Had I not been diagnosed as Diabetic, in all probablility would have developed serious complications from it, late, maybe too late.

Tiger Tom

Eloise,

I am not sure I would label Diabetes as Genetic.

If might lead people in to believing that since no one in their family is Diabetic there is no Gene in the family so why worry.

I am the ONLY ONE in my family who is Diabetic. So I doubt if there a genetic cause for it.

Tiger Tom

Tom, the Genetics Department of the Montreal Children's Hospital along with other studies since the turn of the 20th century have strongly established the link that genes are partly responsible in the development of diabetes. But it skips generations sometimes and some members of the same family. One thing I always remembered that I was told was that if the father AND the mother both had strong tendencies towards diabetes, then and only then could a child develop it.

We must know that several signs point to a possible link to the disease, flares of temper, strong urge to overeat, necessity to sleep after a meal, cravings for high caloric foods. Before it was fully declared, there must have been a high blood sugar count.

Most people who suspect that they might have it should buy a blood sugar monitor and test their blood frequently. It is easy enough to use and if the count is too high too often, then a doctor should be advised and that person checked for a "glucose tolerence test".

If I don't have the disease, but I have a strong predisposition for it, as my two sisters are diabetic, and even if there were no known declared cases of it in my husband's family, the chances of my children developing are big. I have 6 children, only the twins are diabetic. We are all very careful about our weight, none of us are overweight and never were. So it's not just weight that triggers it, you have to have predisposition for it. This disease sneaks up on you without ever noticing it.

Prevention is better than cure.

Eloïse

Tiger Tom, you say:--"I am the ONLY ONE in my family who is Diabetic. So I doubt if there a genetic cause for it."
The more accurate phrase, as Eloise puts it, is "genetic predisposition." As I have said in a previous posting, there appears to be a positive correlation between addiction and diabetes -- a correlation, not a causation. One might have diabetes without having an addiction and vice versa. Extraordinary, however, how often these illnesses showed together in the same person.
Furthermore, these illnesses seem to be related to a combination of genes, not one specific gene. Sometimes there is a "skip generation."

Robby

Does anyone remember the name of the tribe of Native Americans that has - if I remember right - well over 60% of their members diagnosed with diabetes?

In my instance, I'm an "other" - my diabetes was caused by a life threatening illness that caused removal of most of my liver, my gallbladder, and 6 feet of intestine back in the early 70s. I was deeply jaundiced and not until I showed symptoms of severe pancreatic involvement could they determine that it wasn't an infectious hepatitis but one caused by a stuck gallstone! And, I had endured NO gallbladder pain at all. Sadly, the illness resulting in the jaundice crept up on me because of my own emotional makeup.

My husband was diagnosed incurable with cancer when my baby was 3 days old. I've always reacted to stress with digestive upset symptoms. So, when I had those and they persisted, I simply thought it was connected to the overwhelming news that with 4 young children and a husband going through multiple surgeries, hospitalizations, and therapies - it was simply overwhelming to hear that I would be widowed within a year. So, then the complications of the stuck gallstone caused all this other inflammation.

While I've lived with diabetes since that time, I'm a VERY grateful person. They only could hazard a guess of 10% possibility I would live through the surgery. So, you can imagine how much I wanted to live to rear the children.

The baby is now in her 30s, so I feel MOST grateful for being able to be their mother. Yes, some problems, but I have met my goal to try to live to see them all adults.

So, I'm an "other" but am treated with pills instead of insulin. I developed insulin resistance and, again, that was about the time they began dispensing prescriptions for the pills.

Y'all have a good evening.

Ruth Ann

Ruth Anne,

You sure had a tough row to Hoe. My hat is off to you. You are an amazing lady.

Tiger Tom

Robby,

I will bow to your superior knowledge. I don't know much, if anything, about addiction or genetics.

Tiger Tom

Tom:--Forget this "superior knowledge" stuff. I couldn't get a rocket off to the top of the trees much less to the moon.

Robby

Let's go for different knowlege, instead of better or worse.

When I was first told I had a high/low blood sugar problem, I was about 30. It was described to me as a result of too much insulin being released into my system which burned up the sugar too fast right after eating, then a period of a couple of hours or so with too little sugar. This isn't diabetes, rather an inbalance which can cause swings in mood and activity levels. Diet and regular eating habits work pretty well. Protein foods and fats seem to last several hours, while if I eat sweets, especially at breakfast, I get a super high for an hour or two, then a definite down. This is worse with caffine, so pancakes, syrup and coffee would drive me nuts. Some starches, along with protein, like toast and eggs, are just fine. I don't drink much if any coffee anymore, anyway, due to its reaction with the reduced stomach protection from taking NSAIDS for arthritis, so that is no longer part of the problem.

When I moved to the dairy farm, ate regular meals with more protein and fat, and less sweet stuff, my symptoms pretty well disappeared. Now I don't have much trouble until some doctor wants me to fast ahead of some test. Fasts always upset the balance.

But, like I said in an earlier post, since this problem does cause an occassional blood test to show a blood sugar count a little higher than normal, and it is insulin related, I do like to keep informed about diabetes, obviously a much more serious problem. And since my current doctor and I are both aware of up and down test results, we do stay alert for a change which might indicate diabetes instead of just the lesser problem.

Ben,

Never quite heard of that before but it makes sense. Lots of things I have never heard of before.

The insuling the body makes is important and I suppese there will be cases where the body makes too much as well as cases (In Diabetics) where it makes little or none.

Tiger Tom

Benjamin, my sister in law has dealt with this problem for years. And, we think her grandmother may have passed away from ignorance of knowing how to deal with it. Whether it's called diabetes or some other name, blood sugar highs and lows certainly need to be kept to a minimum, don't they.

Ruth Ann

but yesterday when I came onto the "Curous Minds" forum and learned that the subject matter was Diabetes, I quickly left, feeling somewhat of a "downer". I thought better of it today. Its just that diabetes is such a tyrant at my house. I am a type ll, have been for over ten years. And I have all that time resented the fact that so many of the things I like are not included in my lifestyle any more without an occasional sneak. Hate it! It is safe to say that I am a struggling ice cream-aholic who tries to convince himself that the "no sugar added" variety is ok for me when I really don't think it is. All in all, diabetes is not a happy subject for me. And therefore a subject to be avoided, with my juvenile thinking! But I want to mentioned a couple of things that have helped me stabilize my blood sugar count. I do the blood sugar testing thing every day just before taking my daily quota of Rx drugs. Concerned with some higher readings, I switched to a high protein, lower carbs diet and saw an immediate drop in sugar count. This diet is more satisfying too so that I find that I am eating less than I formerly did. Also, I find that an occasional half glass of Cabernet (red) wine also tends to lower the sugar count the next morning. It works for me! In spite of my problems controlling my blood sugar, I am able to play golf twice a week and I find that I can burn up a lot of sugar that way. In fact twice while golfing I have experienced running low on blood sugar and that happens so fast, it is quite scary . Now I carry a "rescue pack" in my golf bag, just in case. This past year, I have found it necessary to rent an electric golf cart because my legs have suffered the ravages of time, no doubt partly due to diabetes but even with a cart I get quite a bit of exercise. So no complaints on that score. But what the heck, I am 3/4 of the way through my 82nd year and an obstacle here and there has to be expected, don't you think? losalbern

One of the problems I forgot to mention is your gums. So be sure to keep up your dental appt. regime.

Losalbern,

Being in your 82nd year qualifies you for a few bennies. like sneaking some Fat and Sugar Free Ice Cream once in a great while.

Glad that you get enough exercise. That is one of my problems: I DON'T. Since my Dog was put down I rarely get out and walk as much as I should.

I am NUTS about Chocolate Covered Marshmallow. Needless to say it is forbidden to me. Nevertheless, I stand in a Walmart aat this time of the year and at Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter, looking longly at the Marshmallow Pumpkins, Turkeys, Santas, and Easter Eggs. What a trial. But it is good for the will power. NOT so good on the nerves. My hand always sneaks out to take one and I have to force myself to put it back.

Diabetes is tough, no getting around that. However, the consequences of not obeying the rules of Diabetes are tougher.

Tiger Tom

Losalbern, your comments about daily vigilance are well put. The difficult thing for many of us is that it is ALWAYS there - we ALWAYS must be careful - we ALWAYS must be prepared for a low, etc.

Today, after eating a very carefully planned meal for breakfast, at 10:30 my b/s was only 23! In exploring the extraordinarily low number for me with a friend who is a juvenile diabetic, we discussed activities yesterday.

I took my son for a colonoscopy - this involved a break in my normal routine of getting up and going to work. Then I myself had a medical test run yesterday afternoon - which entailed dropping son off at his house, coming in to work for a short period of time and rushing to get e-mails and phone calls answered before my own test. Rushing back to the office, getting one of my bosses off for a 2-day trip taking files with him that I am responsible for creating. Then, a church member who has become disabled from noncompliant diabetes management called asking me to take him to the grocery. When I got there, there was only 1 cart, which he had to use to be able to shop, necessitating a considerable amount of walking for me as I assisted him with his shopping.

All in all, she commented that, with the totally topsy-turvy day I had experienced, it is no wonder I had a bad low mid-morning.

I guess moderation in all things would describe the goals we need to set for ourselves.

Ruth Ann

Yes. Several of my teeth are loose and threatening to fall out (along with my hair).

Howzat

Hair and Teeth,

Had all of my upper teeth pulled so that was not due to the Diabetes, just poor Dental Hygene.

Hair, have pulled most of it out in frustration at the ISP I am using, am now working on the scalp.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom and All

Does anyone have any information regarding the possible toxicity of some of the Sugar Substitutes, such as Sorbitol, Aspartame, etc.

Just curious.

I can attest to the fact that some of those sweeteners ending in "...ol" can mess up a person's digestive system if too much is ingested. <wry grin>

Ruth Ann

Prancer,

sugar Substitute that I use is Diabetisweet.

Very good, no bitter aftertaste and no Aspartame in it.

Tiger Tom

Tom, I saw you mention it in another discussion. So, Saturday when I was shopping, I located it at the grocery for the first time. When my current sweetener gets low, I intend to experiment to see what it tastes like.

Ruth Ann

Ruth Anne,

Hope you like it. It certainly is good for me.

I have had no side effects from it, and BS count stays low and IF I want to bake I can use it in place of any sugar called for in a recipie.

Tiger Tom

Tom, that's interesting. I have always been afraid to substitute a sweetener in any recipe for fear of ruining the taste, but you say the one you use is okay. Do you have any recipes using it? Or do you do your own baking?

Lorrie

Lorrie,

I have not yet used it. I am just going by the Label and a recipie book I got from the company.

I want to bake a Lemon Meringue Pie using it. I LOVE Lemon Pie. Just haven't got around to it yet. Will soon. Christmas is coming up and I want to make a few Cookies and things like that. Hopefully Diabetisweet will live up to its claims.

Tiger Tom

I asked the Diabetic Educator about sweetners - she said there is no problem with any sweetner. My husbands doc has a totally different idea about diabetic diet and sweetner. She does not use one sweetner, only sugar.

The Diabetic Educator said we can use real sugar in moderation (and count it in our carb/exchange count).

The lowest low I have recorded is 28... pretty scary. Took three trys to get it back up above 80. Started with Orange Juice, 4 oz - then Diabetic Bar, then breakfast.

When we start thinking about insulin, I keep remembering our elderly neighbors when i was growing up, before insulin. They lived with their oldest son and his family, they were both diabetic, and it was heart-rending to see how every bit of their food had to be weighed; and I remember how the family would scurry around to hide the bakery goods when "Grandma" showed up (She had a real sweet tooth, bless her heart!)

In those days, diabetic comas were frequent, and I don't believe the life span of diabetics was very long.

Lorrie

I though I might mention here my own 1971 bout with apparent diabetes. It came after I had just completed a high protein/low carbohydrate weight loss diet of my own design. A routine blood test showed a fasting blood sugar level about 200 Mg/ dl (>100 Mg/dl is normal). After a confirmation test I was diagnosed as having type 2 (adult onset) diabetes. I was put on usual strict diet many of you are familiar with.and prescription medication.

I was surprised at the nature of the diet. It was the standard diabetic diet at the time, of course low in refined sugars but weighted in favor of other carbohydrates, low in fats, with controlled amounts of proteins and total caloric intake. I continued to loose weight while I was on it.

At the time there were three prescription pill medications approved for type 2 patients. I don't remember their names, but I spent 3 or 4 months on each of them. Despite the diet and the pills my blood sugar levels remained significantly above the high allowable normal in the 150- 170 range at best and at times back above 190.

A year later after a 210 reading I decided to go to another doctor. I choose a well know San Antonio "society" Internal Medicine specialist. His bill was $300 a large amount for the time. He ran a 3-hour glucose tolerance test. Much to the doctor's surprise (mine too) it was perfectly normal.. I returned to the first doctor who repeated his test and also found it normal. I have had many blood scans since, at the least at yearly intervals, and have never had a reading above normal.

I had told both of the Doctors of my high protein diet prior to the onset and both were sure it had nothing to do with the high blood sugar. Only a few years ago I read a of a study on the internet that connects high protein diets with instances of high blood sugar. I am now convinced that this was the cause in my case. I think the lesson from this experience is to at least get current medical advice before beginning new diets.

Baked Goodies

I have been thinking back to my Grandmother's battle with Diabetes and how, in those days, there were so many Church Socials laden with baked goodies.

I know she really enjoyed such things, so it must have been hard to attend functions with such an array available.

However, during the War Years, with sugar rationed, I would imagine things like that were more scarce, therefore, may have presented her with a "blessing" of sorts.

Just musing, whilst eating "something sweet". Not much, just a bite or two, as I am a grazer.

I think Harold's experience is really unusual, it reminds me, if you'll excuse me, of our experience with our dogs. Yes dogs get Diabetes but hear this one now? We have a vineyard and often I would dump the hulls when making jelly. Our oldest lab was diagnosed with diabetes and started on insulin before he was brought home. We had to continue the shots, twice a day, and did so till he died two years later. I question that now especially because on an annual check up our Doberman was also diagnosed with diabetes, and I said to the vet, what , do we have some kind of epidemic out there or something? Again the dog had gotten into the pile of hulls. This caused the vet to take a wait and see attitude and the dog did not have diabetes in the long run.

I've always been interested in Diabetes because it runs in my mother's family among all the males in her family and not the women, my grandfather and uncles had it but she did not. Are there any symptoms that an otherwise healthy person might have that might signal concern (I cannot use the Previous button and I apologize if this has been covered, am not sure what's wrong with my ISP but the connection is abysmally slow).

I have read that a lot of people have it and don't know it, like high blood pressure, it also "ran" in my father's family again among the males.

Is there something a person can watch for?

ginny

I have found that Splenda is real good for cooking. It is made from real sugar and can be used like regular sugar in baking. I love sweet and sour beets, cucumbers and veggies. I can use this and the taste is the same as real sugar. There is a liquid that is called Stevia and I use it in my coffee. I use 6 to 8 drops in a large cup. At a GNC store it can be bought in the powder form. I do watch out for the candy that is sugar free. Look at the carbs and you can see it's high and that's a good way to raise your sugar level. Look for sugar free pudding to make pies with. I make pies and use them and this way I can have a piece of pie now and than. I use the 2% milk instead of whole milk to bake them. I generally eat what I want just watch my carbs. If you can do exercise even if its lifting your feet to stomp the floor as tho you're walking. you can also exercise your arms while in the chair. I also buy some frozen meals if I can't cook like Lean Cuisine, Healthy Choice,etc. Just watch the sodium count and try to get those that are not over 700 in sodium Next week I'll be attending the 6week course. It's free and alot of good advice and free goodies for us. Remember only you can make a difference in your diabets.

Ginny, and Harold, too:

That's very interesting, about those mis-diagnoses? I don't have diabetes, but my husband did, and the first thing he was taught to look for was an insatiable thirst, also bouts of dizziness and light-headedness. He was always wary, because of the history of diabetes in his family.

Kittykat:

Your regime sounds to me to be very pragmatic. Good for you!

Lorrie

Ginny,

Do a Google search and you find sites that give information on symptoms to look for and signals that alert one to possible Diabetes.

IF you think that you might be Diabetic go to a Doctor and have a Glucose Tolerance Test. I don't know about now but when I had one in India I had to chug a litre of Glucose and that was something else. I was not Diabetic at that time although I had a reading in my Urine and Blood that indicated I might be. Also, during that test Blood was drawn every half hour for three hours. I was like a pincushion.

Tiger Tom

I'm certainly enjoying the comments from everyone.

Ruth Ann

Tom, that's a good idea, it's kind of a don't ask don't tell with me, actually, not sure I want to know, but Lorrie, sure do have the thirst!!

Is there something called "water diabetes" and if so how is it different?

Prancer asked about Aspertame? I drink a lot of Aspertame. My sons say it rots the brain, is that true? Are there any studies that say Splenda is safer? It occurred to me this morning I could sweeten my tea with Splenda, I really think perhaps Diet Cokes and Pepsis are not all that good for you?

Harold's experience makes me very wary of (and that of our dogs) getting a diagnosis, actually.

Ginny, interesting about your dogs developing diabetes. Also about their fondness for hulls.

Since 1963 I have read volumes about diabetes because my 7 year old daughter developed it. At that time, no one in my family had it, but since them my 2 sisters developed a type 11 diabetes. In 1963, I was given a course at the Montreal Children's hospital about how to take care of my daughter and what caused the disease. I was told that it is a malfunction of the pancreas, why it decides to malfunction, it still a mystery to the medical profession otherwise they would have eradicated it by now but they have proved that it is part genetic, part diet and part exercise.

When humans were much more physically active, they were not so susceptible to it also because refined foods had not reached our table yet.

There are some warning signs much earlier than doctors can determine when he/she sees a patient because patients tend to consider their eating habits adequate and not worthwhile mentioning to the doctor.

Type 1 or type 11 diabetes basically have the same symptoms and the same consequences if it is not controlled. The first condition for control, I was told then was regularity. After I was given a diet for her where I had to weigh everything she ate, the approximate amount of exercise she had every day was taken into consideration to determine the insulin dosage. At the time there were no disposable needles and they had to be boiled after every use. The tests were urine analysis only and I did that 3 times a day in a test tube with a small amout of urine with a tablet to measure the sugar and the color determined the sugar level. Low sugar, blue, a little sugar green, a bit more yellow and a lot of sugar orange. I marked the color in a little book. Looking at this book, the doctor determined the amount of the two types of insulin I was to put in the needle, fast acting and slow acting insulin. She attended school normally. She gained weight as she was so thin before. Meanwhile, I put her twin sister on the same diet even if she was not diabetic, trying to prevent her from developing it too. She did not until 14 years later when she became pregnant with her second child. To me diet is extremely important in preventing the desease.

The pancreas can put up with only so much abuse. First many times before diabetes is declared by a doctor, an overactive pancreas pumps insulin at a fantastic rate making wild swings between highs and lows. The extreme thirst and voiding has not even showed up yet. Sometimes years can pass with just those symptoms.

Not everybody will develop a full blown diabetes and can stay middle ground all their lives. Others will trigger a full blown case. Obesity to me is a kind of pancreatic disorder even if it not declared Diabetes.

Some people have a normal full feeling after a meal and just can't eat another bite. Others can gorge themselves for hours ingesting an enormous amount of food of any kind and still feel that their hunger is unsatisfied. To me that is a warning sign that something is wrong.

Ginny I have a feeling that the hulls are responsible for the dogs developing Diabetes and they get addicted to it perhaps.

Eloïse

Good points, Eloise.

Ginny, don't ignore ANY symptoms, please! You're too important to us for you to develop problems because you weren't diagnosed.

Also, if it's not diabetes, then the doctor can probably help you track down the cause of your thirst.

Ruth Ann

For those still working:

http://americandiabetesassn.org/GoNow/a16366a86177a175878676a15

Ruth Ann, how kind of you, bless your heart, right back at you on how much you mean to all of us, too, have so enjoyed the posts here and am very impressed with what all you all have had to do in order to maintain your children or yourselves in the face of Diabetes.

Now I have a question and I wonder what you all will say? I have a Mobile Meals Route with several diabetics on it and at the holidays there WILL be some handouts with a few pieces of candy, etc., I never know what to do? Should I give it to our recipients who have diabetes? When you ask they say oh yes I can take a piece of candy now and then, is that true? I never know what to do and it would be very useful if I could find out.

So high blood pressure (which they now say we all have if you have seen the stats, what do you think of THAT? I was stunned) and diabetes are the silent killers of teh world today, how could you....how would you go about deliberately injuring the pancreas?

Short of physical injury, of course?

Eloise, your daughter didn't develop diabetes until her second child? Isn't there a "gestational" diabetes and it usually goes away? I know large babies are a symptom of that one, and it makes me recall Eleanor Roosevelt who had several over 10 pounds, one at 11 and one at 12, and I think one at 13, is it any wonder she told Franklin: that's it? That's a true story.

I once overheard a Japanese lady saying to her daughter who was scarfing up candy, "Stop that. Do you want to give yourself diabetes?"

Some of your experiences here with adult onset diabetes, and that of our dogs in the sweet grape hulls makes me wonder if you can injure yourself with too much sugar.

Then of course there is the famous "low blood sugar," which...how is that related? IS that related??

You can see I know nothing?

I know, having just gone on the Atkins diet today, that if you eat a lot of sugar you seem to crave a lot of sugar, Andrea explained that to me but I did not understand it, we need her in here, she's a nurse.

What do you all think of the BB King commercials for that new kind of diabetic tester? He's been widely criticized for saying it hurts, what do you think about that?

It's good to be talking about this disease, we don't all know enough about it, I think.

Why does it affect the feet and legs?

ginny

Regarding the Mobile Meals route. It is true that we can have a piece of candy now and then - we must either save it for a really bad low blood sugar reading (and, yes, diabetics get LOW blood sugars, as well as high ones), or if we wish we can reduce the amount of carbohydrates we plan to eat for that day by the number of carbs in that piece of candy. I don't usually choose to do that, simply because the one little piece of candy is gone in a jiffy and later I wish I could have that larger piece of fruit, or the bread I left off, etc. Essentially, though, it's a tradeoff.

If a person is told he or she is borderline diabetic, or at risk of developing diabetes, etc., then he or she is almost literally taking their pancreas in their own hands and damaging it by ignoring the correct eating, exercise, and medical plan that should be developed in conjunction with the patient, the diabetes educator, and the doctor.

And, high blood pressure may go along with diabetes, for as the tiny capillaries fill up and shrivel away, the heart has to work harder to feed the body. One of the first indications of kidney failure resulting from diabetes is high blood pressure. In fact, my doctor put me on a very low dose high blood pressure medication a number of years ago saying that they've learned that some b/p medications seem to help prolong the life of a diabetic's kidneys.

Does testing hurt?? You betcha!!! Each time I test, I have to look for a finger that has the fewest puncture wounds to do the testing. I have learned, however, that there are fewer nerves on the sides of the fingertips than in the rest of the fingertip - therefore, I use the sides. Some juvenile diabetics run out of places to test and have learned they can get a sizeable drop of blood from the ear lobe.

I have not tried the "test your arm" procedure because my doctor's software only reads the AccuCheck monitors - and they still use the finger stick method for testing.

It would be interesting to try an arm stick just to see what the difference is.

Ruth Ann

Ginny,

Don't know if my experience is typical.

I pig out on Chocolate Covered Marshmallow. When Easter would roll around I would consume Marsmallow Easster Eggs by the carton each day. That would be twelve (12) a day. Now three equal 37 grams of Sugar, so I was eating 148 grams of Sugar a day. As my Doctor said: "Your Pancreas just gave up." It did and I developed type II Diabetes. I guess my Pancreas still produces Insuin but my body needs help using it. So, I am on Avandia which works well for me. I have to watch my Diet and exercise moderately each day (I fall way down there) and NO Sugar. It is a bear but I manage.

Tiger Tom

Ginny, in the case of your people to whom you bring Meals on Wheels, I don't think an occasional treat will do them any harm, as long as they adjust for it later. I can't help feeling that they realize just how far they can tempt Fate, and will use their common sense.

My husband was a diabetic who refused to work with the doctors or nurses who tried to help him. He wouldn't have anything to do with the injections of insulin ( I learned to do that) It was denial of the worst sort, and ultimately led to his death. I remember when the doctor tried to explain to him that if only he would watch his diet, control his starch intakes, check his blood sugar, and do moderate exercise, that it was possible that he could control the diabetes with minimal amounts of insulin, if at all, but Ed refused to listen.

Lorrie

Be Very careful with your meals on wheels as some will get there sugar fix when there care givers will not give them unless nessary and the care givers know what they are doing I hope. If it is not on the menu be careful for your sake as you could be sued in this day and age.

but have many friends that are so I am Very interested in this discussion.

Thank You all for your posts as to me they are Much Apprieciated.

I have diabetes type two and I had gone off the wagon for a few weeks. I ate everything and my sugars reflected it. Then, I went to see a nutritionist whom told me I was starving myself. You could have fooled me, since my clothes were getting tight. We went over what I was having through the day and she explained it to me. For instance I was having a cup of cereal with a 1/2 banana and some lite soy milk. Then I was hungry in an hour or two. She said (pardon me if this is too elementary) I was having all carbs when I needed to combine that with either a protein or a good fat such as a tablespoon of peanut butter or 1/4 cup of nuts. I am doing just that and it works great. She also showed me how to measure things and figure them out by just counting the carbs and it's easy. If anyone wants to try it let me know and I'll put it down too. It is wonderful and I am losiing some flab!

I am just responding to an earlier post. Forgive me as this is not people related. I had a very healthy and athletic cat. He developed a urinary tract infection and my vet treated him with steroids. A months later he developed a raging case of diabetes requiring two shots a day only to die three years later a very sick boy. My advice to pet lovers is to be proactive as you are with yourselves and always ask your vet if diabetes is a complication with any medicine they prescribe. I was not told and would not want anyone to have to deal with this. Since then I have met many who tell the same story and there are articles on the web about specific steroid medicines to support this.

Holly2,

Wonder if Steroids would cause the same thing in Humans.

Tiger Tom

I guess I am confused over some of the posts I have read here. How can one have a "suger inbalance" and not be diabetic. I thought high blood suger is by definition diabetics. Also I thought a pancetics that did not produce any insulin was considered Type I and the inability to produce "enough insulin" was Type 2. People with Type 1 by defintion need insulin shots, those with Type 2 may or may not need shots, they may be able to control high suger with medications, or with diet and exerise, depending upon the amount of insufficiency in their insulin production. Me, I'm a type 2 who with a combination of pills and 1 and 1/2 hours in the gym a day with an hour of aerbotics and half hour of weight lifting seems to be controlling well.

Interestingly enough I don't know about steroids and hunmans but speaking of drugs in general, my doctor told me something very interesting. She said there is a direct connection between diabetics and depression. She went on to say this was discovered because some nondiabetic people whom were treated for depression with certain anti-depressants became diabetic. Apparently these were people without a direct link to the disease.

What you describe sure;ysounds like diabetes type two to me especially if you are on meds to help lower your sugar. It is possible to get your sugar down through diet and workouts and some even go off pills but I believe they would still consider themselves diabetic and keep a close eye on their sugar, diet, exercise etc... However I'd suggest you might want to clarify this with an endocrinologist who specializes in diabetes. When I first was diagnosed by my regular GP he did not call my disease diabetes. My understanding is that diabetes is uncontrolled blood sugars. Sugars that you can not control on your own without pills or insulin that are used specifically to keep blood sugars regulated. Hope that helps.

Ginny, apparently it's true that large babies have a higher incidence of diabetes. My twins weighed 7 and 1/2 pounds each at birth, one of the signs that I have it in my genes. The Montreal Children's told me when Fran became diabetic that Madeleine's chances of developing it were 100%. Extensive tests were made on identical twins that proved it. So her diabetes was not meant to go away after the birth of her second child.

A strong pancreatic function will take care of large amounts of sugar, but one that is weaker cannot fight adequately an overdose of sugar.

Tom, I love chocolate covered marshmallows too, but I avoid buying them so I won't be tempted. I found that the best way to stay in control is not to have anything too sweet in my pantry. Otherwise I gorge on that, like cookies. I know that as I age, I will have to be even more vigilant about not getting the disease. I am not fond of exercise except walking an hour or two. My sister who is two years younger than me goes skating two to three times a week. Montreal has a year around skating rink. I envy her her stamina.

My daughters have to keep sweets available on them in case of a drastic sugar drop. Insulin is very hard to determine the exact amount, so many things affect blood sugar levels. Françoise is a Registered Nurse and she has to constantly adjust her insulin according to what the tests reveal.

Be careful, those who have Diabetes. It is worth it to be healthy in spite of it.

Eloïse

most enlightening. My husband is type 2 diabetic. We here in australia, have a simple 4-7-11 measure, which is taken after meals, and all are considered ok at different times, mind you he never reaches higher than 8 after the evening meal, but 11 is permissable, as long as it is back to 4 on rising.

We have a huge emphasis on fat here, have pretty much eliminated it from our diets and as a result he has gotten back to perfect "weight for age"

We are told the problem with legs and feet is circulatory, and his exercise regime seems to help with this.A local chap here went blind at 50 so is a reminder to my husband of the dangers of ignoring his diet.

He has a glass of red wine each evening, and I have an excellent recipe for boiled fruitcake, which allows him 1 slice daily, without problem.We find regular smaller meals better, and this is encouraged by our community nurse.He takes 1 diaformin tablet daily, which makes us very proud as the dose is reduced because he has such stable blood sugar counts.

The symptoms which lead to his being diagnosed were thirst and uti's, which ocuur due to the constant urine being held in the bladder. As he has prostrate cancer as well, our task has been doubly hard.

Statistics here in Aus show that married men handle diabetes better, and one assumes this is if they have a dedicated wife prepared to watch food intake.However his diet is no different to the rest of our house (and we have a number of students living here) as we have eliminated fat and cut down on added sugar.The youngsters eat more fruit than my husband, and do use a little butter occasionally, but otherwise we are all eating the same food.

Our dietician advises us to be very careful of products advertised low in fat or lite as they often replace fat with sugar.All in all, though diabetes is dangerous and serious, iy is a highly controllable disease. The only real trouble we have is when george suffers some other illness, and everything just goes haywire.During treatment for cancer he lapsed for awhile into a diabetic coma, which was scary, but happy to say all is well now.

Thanks again for all the interesting posts.

Anneo

Diabetes,

One thing, from the posts so far, is that Diabetes can lead to other problems or, other problems can lead to Diabetes. I guess it may be to the reduced strength of the bodies defenses caused by Diabetes or some other problem. Leaves us more open to one thing or the other.

I do know that problems with the Pancreas is the main factor in Diabetes and the bodies ability to use what Insulin the Pancreas may still be able to produce in some.

It is a daily fight to balance diet, Exercise, and for many Insulin dosage. However, the alternative to not maintaining those things is not pleasant.

One thing, of course, is accepting that one is Diabetic and one must give up much. Denial can happen often. That denial will cause a lot of problems for the Diabetic and the family. I know that it has taken me a while to accept that there are things that I simply can no longer have. Things that I enjoy very much. It is also hard to get those around me to accept that I am Diabetic and to knock off slurpling and chomping those things while I am nearby to watch. My wife keeps dragging things in to the House that she knows I cannot resist and also cannot eat. UP goes my Blood Sugar.

This is becoming a very informative discussion. I know that I have learned a good deal from it so far.

Tiger Tom

Yes, I agree, this is really useful and I'm learning a lot, too!

WELCOME, HOLLY2, now your post (thank you all for the advice also on my Mobile Meals Route, I am going to cut off the sweets and substitute something else more lasting, I appreciate that, ALL~!) but now Anneofavonlea and Holly2 have brought up something I do want to ask about!

Yesterday I went on the Atkins Diet? OK ok, you can eat any amount of fat but you can't have carbs and sugar? And supposedly you are not hungry? OK OK well I ate the lunch and two hours later would have KILLED for food and that continued all day but I drink constantly tea or Diet Pepsi with aspertame, so finally wrote Andrea, who is a nurse, who told me about it and she said NO NO NO sugar drinks, and something about what it does to the Insulin level.

All right, so now I do need to ask, as it appears that I am living solely on sugar substitutes and carbs, DOES this constant wash of sugar substitutes as aspertame, DOES this have the same effect as eating sugar or not? Very important, need to know.

apparently you burn fat and protein but the sugars do something else? It's a wonder I can type this, when you think about it. She's lost 7 pounds but I would gain 70 eating all that fat and meat, I'm not sure if diet anything is good for you??!!??

Ginny,

There are Sugar Substitues that do NOT contain Aspartame. Diabetisweet it one of them. Asparatame is NOT good for you. I have been told to avoid it like the plague.

Tiger Tom

I was not looking to see if I am a diabetic, I know I am, my point was the postings I read here that say, "oh I have a suger unbalance" but I am not a diabetic.

Sorry for the mixup. I thought your facts looked like you had a good understanding of diabetes. Thanks for the correction.

I think one of the GREAT things that could come from this discussion is that people who may have problems and aren't ready to address them will read our experiences and the facts and determine to take care of themselves with their physician's assistance.

SeniorNet is to be lauded for bringing this matter to the forefront.

Ruth Ann

Question. Were you told the Atkin's Diet was good for you being a diabetic? I was told it was not because it was not properly balanced. You may want to check. My doctor recommends counting carbs. It's easy 15 carbs is equal to one unit or serving. You just have to look at the amount you are consuming and know that for breakfast you can have 2-3 servings of carbs, for lunch you can have 2-4 servings, for dinner you can have 3-5 servings and for a few snacks you can have 1-2 carb servings. That's it and never consuming carbs alone, or fats, or proteins will curb your appetite. It's really easy. Take it from soneone who hates the fuss of all of it. This works. I try to think of carbs as sugars since that's how my body treats them. Also, my nurse told me fats are not digested well and they lay in the base of your stomach for long periods. Snacks are important too and knowing which ones will work to fill you and not harm you. Try it if or check it out if you like you might like it. The carb amounts can be juggled too. For instance, if your lunch is larger cut back for dinner and keep the total number the same.

For example take something you like and read the label. I am looking at a small bag of animal crackers. The bag says it has two servings so I then look at the carb count and it says 17grams which means half the bag is equal to about one serving of my 1-2 allowed for a snack. Or I could eat the whole bag and only get two carb servings. What is mostly important is that whether I eat one or two servings I need to have some other food to give me either a protein or a good fat. A TBS of peanut butter or 1/4 cup of nuts or 1/2 cup of cottage cheese something else so that my body doesn't just take the carb and dump the sugar into my system leaving me hungry enough to binge and make bad choices. Good Luck

it would seem to my (illeducated medically)mind that you are playing with fire drinking large amounts of anything other than water. We only drink iced water with lemon slices, which in time one comes to love.

Do please have your blood sugar tested, if you are going to stay on the Atkins diet. If one follows the low sugar low fat diet required to keep ones blood sugar low, weight loss follows naturally.One of my seniors clients is 80 next month, just took her to toowoomba to specialist, she had been overweight for years, and was diagnosed with type ii last year, and is now beautifully slim, with all the other benefits attatched to weight loss.As I have said before, here in Australia, we dont actually count portions anymore, and are assured that any good balanced diet is appropriate. Atkins is NOT well balanced.

Ruth ann is so right about adressing problems, if you have poor circulation in your extremities, which is noticed during cold weather as you can't warm your feet. If your eye sight is blurry from time to time, if you are always thirsty, no matter how much you drink, if you are annoyed by little things those around you do,if you go to the loo more than once a night, go get the prick in the finger and see.it cant hurt and it well may help.

For me the scary thing is the blindness, and here in our small town we have a youngish man who as I said before is totally blind. One can also lose limbs, most especially feet and toes. I have never yet eaten a candy that makes such a future worthwhile.The upside is that type ii diabetes is so controllable by diet.Those people with type 1, must be irritated by type 2 people not aprreciating how fortunate they are, way better the prick on the finger and a closely watched diet than insulin injections daily.

Sorry to lecture Ginny, but you do really need to be tested, there is power in knowledge as you well know with your great mind, and we do need you here in our discussions, so hop to it.

Anneo

How true. It took me a long time to pass out of denial and give myself the space to find my way. We are not like other people and those without diabetes will never truely know how hard is to handle food and the people around food. But I'm here to tell you and everyone that you can do it and you can lose the fat. It is hard not to think "well, I'm taking the pills now I can eat whatever I want. The pills or insulin just level the playing field and now I am like everyone else." Nooooooooooooo! You are better because you are deciding to eat healthy now and to take charge of your weight now. I'm doing it. I've been doing it for awhile and I have had a Goodyear tire fixed around my waist for nearly twenty years (belly fat is the worst kind of fat) which I am getting rid of. It can take years off!

OH I do agree with everything everybody said and like Steelknee I'm confused over the blood sugar thing, and I'm so touched by everybody caring that I'm really needing to set the record straignt, I do not have Diabetes, (but because it does run in my family and because my second child was 10 pounds at birth, I have had the usual tests in checkups but I appreciate the caring) nor ANY of the symptoms except the thirst, so yesterday following Anneofavonlea's thoughts, I left off the tea with aspertame (Tom how is that sweetener you use different and what did the doctor say about aspertame and why?) AND the sodium laden Diet Pepsi and drank only water, and guess what? No thirst? No thirst at all? It would seem that the salt in the soft drinks and tea maybe or maybe not in combination with the sweetener produces an incredible thirst.

Without it, no thirst? How about that one? So that's simple, I like water, I'll just get off (I LOVE water and lemon) I'll just get off the Aspertame/ Sodium kick!

It seems to me that those who do have Diabetes, have a lot to teach the rest of us about carbs and protein, things I have not ever paid the least bit attention to. You know they say you are what you eat and if all you eat is carbs and sugar, what are you going to look like or be?

I bet most people who do not have Diabetes don't have a clue about the pancreas, and have never thought a thing about it, it's just like a person who has gall bladder problems, they used to say if you want to know if you have gall bladder problems then eat something high in fat, well heck, that (could it?) might kill you? Likewise if you eat a bag of jelly beans, even if (and I have, many times, and I mean a BAG not a serving) you are PERFECTLY healthy, there's a possibilty you are ruining your health? That's something every person needs to be aware of, I am so glad you put this discussion here, it may be commmon sense to a Diabetic, but it may not be to others, just LOOK at our country and the weight we are carrying around, I just read that Obesity is now regarded as a disease, diet and health and abuse of the different organs is something important and I betcha most of us don't think twice.

I'm hearing more and more that the Atkins Diet may not be what it's cracked up to be, something about it throws you into Ketosis, jeeopers, who needs that?

Speaking of healthy diet are you all watching Dr. Phil and his house of people trying to lose weight? I think it's a sort of good idea, but I hate the "elimination" factor there, it's like Big Brother, what are you thinking about that? If the object is to help people, why eliminate them, from 13 into 8, to put psychological pressure on them? So they will eat?

I'm not sure of the psychological outcome there?

Is that even ethical?

And speaking as Holly does of the shape thing, the apple shape is supposedly very bad for you but the pear is good, any excess weight around the middle is the bad thing, is that how you understand it? Fat pear shape is relatively OK, tho you rarely see a fat pear without something in the middle, if you know what i mean (speaking from personal experience here, is there a pearapple?) hahahahaha

I have a heck of a time remembering names. But at least thirty years ago a prominent columnist , or writer of sorts, came up with the statement , "you are what you eat." At the time, I thought that was a silly statement but this guy was right on target. Does anyone remember his name? losalbern

True! I remember reading that statement also, but I do not recall who wrote it.

On the lighter side....One time, years ago, our family were in a Chinese Restaurant, having Dim Sum (I think that is similar to brunch). Well, the trolley carts go from table to table with foods and one could request choices.

I was about to ask for a Tart when the lady walked away before I got the word out, so I leaned over, signaled and said (louder than I should have) "TART!".

With a very straight face, very dry sense of humour, one of my Daughter and SIL's friends looked at me and said " You are what you eat!"

Well, I never did live that one down. Forever after, when I would telephone my Daughter's home, if the said Comedian was in the house, once he knew who was on the other end of the conversation, he would holler out " TART! TART!"

We still have a lot of laughs over that one and that is almost 30 years ago.

Not many comments about exerise. During the last three months I've become a gym rat. Two hours daily, over an hour on a stationary stepping machine ( get a lot of interesting reading done too ) and around 45 minutes doing weights. Not only has my suger levels gone down AM about 85 to a high of about 140 at bed time, but I've lost 12 pounds, 2 inches and feel great.

My mother who lived to 95 used sayings to teach us. She used to say: "If you are sick, look for the cause on your plate". Too simplistic I know, but there is something to it I am positive. She also said: "Prevention is better than treatment"

Eloïse

Exercise is excellent and there is no better exercise than walking, unless its maybe swimming, which uses all ones muscles.

Ginny, glad you dont have diabetes, amd that your thirst is improved.Prancer what a delightful story. I think Yum Cha(or whatever its called) is wonderful, and is it ok if we call you "tart" now, only kidding really.

Anneo

anneofavonlea

A little fun now and then to lighten the day!

Yes, maybe I should change my handle to Tart Prancer or Prancer the Tart. ohhhhhhhh noooooooo. That wouldn't do.

ELOISE

It sounds as though your elders had good common sense. I remember the words, all too well, "That's ENOUGH!", often accentuated with a cuff. We did learn moderation, even if we didn't realize it then. It wasn't just about food. It was about overdoing anything.

HARK, TO THIS BREAKING NEWS!!

Managed Care Finds Cure for Diabetes; Endocrinologists Take the Plunge

Declaring diabetes mellitus non-existent, managed care companies nation-wide have managed to wipe out diabetes throughout the United States, it was announced today. It was explained that any patient insisting that they have diabetes will be re-diagnosed as having paranoia, and hence will be ineligible for medical care, as mental health benefits are essentially nonexistent in most managed care plans. The insurance industry also announced that their pre-existing policy of refusing to reimburse for syringes or blood glucose test strips, and discouraging patients' Primary Care Physicians from referring to endocrinologists, has been "totally vindicated."

An estimated three hundred endocrinologists were seen lining up to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco; there were unheard-of upsurges in bookings for flights to San Francisco noted by airlines nationally. The San Francisco Tourism Agency announced that it encourages all endocrinologists to spend their final vacation in their city, before taking the plunge.

According to an anonymous spokesman for a major managed care company, it is expected that curing diabetes, and terminating contracts with deceased endocrinologists, will allow approximately 57 more insurance company executives to claim 6-figure bonuses at the end of the current Fiscal Year, while only resulting in an additional 15 minutes loss of sleep per night for the average Primary Care Physician, and only an estimated 2,000,000 covered lives to become uncovered deaths.

You may feel free to forward or reproduce this satire, provided you include the following copyright notice: Copyright © 1997 by the Midwest Diabetes Care Center, Inc.

GOTCHA!

Lorrie

<chuckle>

Thank goodness it hasn't gone THAT far, yet!!!

Ruth Ann

Before I realized that was a satire I was beginning to get upset, lol.

Earlier in the discussion we were talking about the link between diabetes and high blood pressure and kidney disease.

I read the most absorbing article in "Diabetes Focus" which is an informational magazine apparently produced for family pharmacies to hand out.

There is an article called "Long Time Coming" which deals with this very topic of discussion. I strongly recommend that you try to find a copy of this magazine in your locale.

I hope they'll let me quote this one paragraph: "What Goes Wrong: When you have chronically poor control of blood sugar levels, the glucose that circulates in the bloodstream becomes thick (glycated) and is deposited throughout the circulatory system, includi8ng the small blood vessels in the kidney. 'This is how high blood sugar damages the kidneys and other parts of the body,' says Garabed Eknoyan, M.C., a spokesperson for the National Kidney Foundation and profesor of medicine at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston. 'When this happens in the kidneys, they retain salt and that expands their blood volume. This happens at the same time that chronically high glucose levels have constricted the blood vessels throughout the body. These two complications together cause high blood pressure. Anytime there is high blood pressure, the kidneys will deteriorate more quickly.'"

Next, I did a search on the web for information about the HbA1c test, which measures glycated hemoglobin readings for the last 3 months. Now that I understand what "glycated" means, I understand the importance of keeping that blood sugar level low!

No matter how much research we do, it seems we need to learn more, doesn't it.

Ruth Ann

http://www.diabetes123.com/d_06_h00.htm

Ginny

I am in California, visiting my Daughter and Grandchildren.

Re Asparatame. Talked to daughter. She tells me that the last she has read about Aspartame it is no longer bad for one.

Tiger Tom

Hi, Tom, in California!Are you going to be there for the Recall? I'll bet that's all they talk about. When will you be back?

Lorrie

Lorrie,

Yes, I will be here for the Recall Vote.

Will be back to Washington State in Mid October.

Meawhille, getting to know the Grandkids again. Swure have changed TigerTom

I have a grandson with J.D. and a niece also. They were DX as very young children.

We don't know where this predisposition came from but it is interesting to me that Addictions can be genetic and the addictive person could be predisposed to diabetes. Knowing this from a family member who was a Professor of Biochemistry and held his chair at USC. He taught us a lot about biology of diabetes as my husbands family were all predisposed to get adult onset type. My ex-husband was about 60 when he lost the feeling in his feet. He stumbled a lot and began shuffling. I scolded him (he would not do anything I told him to of course.) The kids all told him to get tested. Finally he remarried and the kids told his wife that he was being very stubborn about this and told her of his family history. his new wife convinced him to get a six hour glucose test and he was dx. with adult onset. She took care of his diet and saw to his mediations very well. He lived till he was 72 with this condition plus some serious heart surgeries.

My grandson is now in his mid thirty's and doing pretty well though he is what they call a fragile diabetic. Some times they cant control him no matter what is going on. He is hospitalized pretty often though now that he is older he takes very much better care of himself. He is on a list to get an insulin pump installed. I haven't heard what came of that yet.

My family's addiction problems made me very aware of the need to check blood sugar but I usually just have the fasting b.s. test once a year and occasionally I have the three hour test.

Once when I was still in the active phase of my drinking addiction I had to have a six hour test. I drank that glucose, then every hour had a test though I did not eat another thing just had water for the six hours. They then said my problem was connected to the alcohol and not diabetes. When I stopped drinking with the assistance of AA and my higher power(sober 20+ years) I noticed that my craving for carbs went up notchs....and my weight was up to almost 200 lbs. So-

Recently I have been on a high protein low carb diet along with 3xweek 30 aerobics class. I am doing well and my last blood test (after 6 weeks on diet) was ok so I will keep track of it. My Physician is pleased that my blood pressure is now normal and I am off the diuretic meds.

I use Sweeten as a sugar substitute in my tea and I drink an occasional cup of coffee with it too. I have not cooked with it but my daughter said it works in cookies she made so I may try it when my diet is not as limited as it is right now. Faith

Faith, you've brought some really interesting material to this discussion. Thanks.

Ruth Ann

Dead Zone,

We seem to have hit a dead zone.

Nothing more to say on tis subject?

Tiger Tom

TIGER - Sometimes, when this site goes dead, the only thing that keeps me subscribed is my curious mind wondering what on earth the next topic will be. I guess I am most curious about what SNters are curious about.

Well I really did not want to hear of another problem my body might have because of Diabetes. Francy

"Liver disease and diabetes" <http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=AN00193&si=2164> AOL users click here.

To all the participants of this discussion:

It seems that the issue of Diabetes has been pretty thoroughly covered, and we would like to thank you, Tom, for leading such a timely topic. This subject is one that can be of interest to many of us. And we thank all the wonderful posters who came in here to express their thoughts and supply important information. Thank you to you all.

Our next subject for Curious Minds is a totally different concept. Our SeniorNet has been invited to work with PBS Program Clubs, and on Oct. 6 PBS will be presenting a television documentary about a man who made the very first automobile trip across country in a 1903 Winton automobile. This is a fabulous story, and we will be discussing this program beginning September 30.

I think you all know that this is tremendously important for us all, it's national recognition, and we are hoping that all of our volunteers in Curious Minds and our readers, will all join in to making this discussion a huge success.

"Horatio's Drive" (the title of the program) discussion will be open for comments and posts on September 30, but we have it set up for read only until then. Please look in and check out some of the great links we have there, you may want to talk about them when it opens.

HORATIO'S DRIVE

Lorrie

Diabetes,

Thank you all for posting in this disucssion.

If you want to continue discussing or learning about Diabetes, go to the Health Matters folder and click on the Diabetes discussion.

Tiger Tom

In your post about the upcoming PBS special you mentioned the volunteers in the "Closed Minds discussion". Where can I find this? While I quite frequently deal with people who have, what seems to me to be, closed minds, I didn't know Seniornet had a discussion site devoted to such a state of mind.

Howzat

Sorry, I suppose my post never made it in..was telling the story about testing Avandia for 3 years before it gon on the market... if anypne is still interested let me know colkot

Colkot:

I am referring you to the more permanent Diabetes discussion in the Health Matters folder, please post your information there, it may be very important to our readers.

Jane DeNeve "Diabetes & Diabetic Retinopathy" 2/22/02 11:29am

Thank you so much.

Lorrie

Howzat:

What a hawkeye you are! Of course, that was a typo, and i have since corrected it, but I wonder if that was a Freudian slip of some kind. "Closed Minds" indeed! Wouldn't that make a discussion!!

Anyway, thank you for spotting that.

Lorrie

As i said before, our next Curious Minds discussion will be about the adventrous journey that Mr. Horatio Jackson took, in "Horatio's Drive" which is open now for posts.

HORATIO'S DRIVE

Then on October 12, another topic for Curious Minds will appear. Watch for it.

Lorrie

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion

FALL COLORS

Photo by Tim Roach
Fall is my favorite time of the year. Along with the refreshing chill of air, Autumn brings vivacious colors to the landscape, and the month of October is the best for viewing nature's paintings. Oh, what a grand job Mother Nature does in splashing the bright colors of red and gold on her fall canvas. And, as an added bonus, we know the exhilarating holiday season is just around the bend.

Anatomy of a Leaf
Fall Foliage Photos
Autumn Leaves

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Bill H

Books Main Page | B&N Bookstore

Lorrie, congratulations on the excellent Horatio's Drive discussion. You did a fantastic job and you were the right person for that discussion. Lorrie, you achieved stardom for SeniorNet. And now that is going to be one tough act to follow!
Welcome to what I call The Golden Time of the year. This link that our Ginger gave us may help put you in the mood for the season and our discussion. I do believe you will love viewing the picture and listening to a favorite song. Please click here to enjoy both. Scroll down to see the lyrics-- Highlight the words by dragging the mouse arrow over them and sing along.
Autumn Leaves
Have you ever noticed how, in the fall, the earth's scenes take on an added three dimensional effect because of the Sun, low in the sky, casting long shadows and back light on objects. I watched a few of my neighbors taking there late afternoon walk. The Sun's backlight had such a dramatic effect on them as they walked along, and they seemed to stand out more today than in the summer.
The low position of the Sun creates the golden effect, with the colors of the day leaning to the warm spectrum. When I studied photography I was taught to use a color correction filter on my camera lens to compensate for the sky's warm spectrum of color, however, I soon learned that more dramatic pictures could be made without the correction filter on the camera lens.
Some of the nicest vacations I had were in the fall. So come along then and please tell us about your Autumn vacations and what experiences you had at this time of year.
My thanks to Marjorie for assisting me with the heading.

Bill H

BILL: I noticed today that the sun seemed stronger than it did all summer. At least today I felt the need for a hat when I was doing errands and didn't have one with me. I haven't taken a hat in the car with me this summer. Last summer I had a hat with me all the time. I don't know whether I was doing less or just didn't feel the need for a hat. Today I did. I am sure the angle of the sun had a lot to do with it. I was out just after noon and am frequently doing errands at that time of day.

Yesterday my husband and I did our fall "Leaf Peeping" tour to northeast Iowa where the bluffs along the Mississippi River look beautiful with the change of color. The colors are muted this year because of the dryness, I suppose, but the yellows and dark reds are still very pretty. We stopped at some "festivals/fests" that are popualar these first couple of weekends in October. One was a Heritage Days event at a lovely park and the other is a big crafts thing up in the little town of McGregor, also on the Mississippi. They have lovely things and a band playing and food vendors and it's an old, old river town with lots of little shops now. The next town north, Marquette, also has a river boat casino and that was full, too. No motel rooms or camping spots to be found for 40 miles they said. It was simply a simple, relaxing day...and I added two pieces of pottery to my "collection" from potters I'd not bought from before. I'm not much of a collector, but I enjoy buying pottery pieces from the actual artist and from Iowa or Wisconsin based artists.

It's funny, isn't it, how everybody seems to have, on the news, their own theory of what makes the fall leaves prettier one year from the next? Last year it was no rain so they will be pretty, this year it's we've had lots of rain so they will be pretty! haahahah

Love the links in the heading and I can't help but notice that many of the areas are in my own area and in the Blue Ridge Mountains.

One of the things I love about living here is the truly fabulous falls and leaf colors (and I still don't know what makes some years more gorgeous than others).

We have people who ride out here to the vineyard to see our trees, mammolth hickory's (bright bold yellow) fantastic sugar maples (I lined the driveway with them: did you realize that there are several different types of sugar maples?).

The sugar maples are a nod to my childhood in PA where we made forts out of the colorful leaves when they fell to the ground. The leaves of the sugar maple keep their incredible color for quite a while on the ground, unlike many other trees, which provides a blazing blanket above and beneath the tree.

Oh this topic is one I can really get into, more anon.....

God, Ginny, that sounds just gorgeous! I have always loved the colors of maple trees especially in the Fall.

I know the area Jane is talking about. Those bluffs along the Mississippi river are wonderful this time of year, just as they are here. It used to strike me whenever I visited someone from out of state that they would take long bus trips and train rides just to see something that we had right outside our back door.

I like this subject, Bill!

Lorrie

I am so blessed. I live in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains about 50 miles outside of Washington, D.C. Every year in the middle weekend of October (this year Oct. 18-19) the usually quiet highway a half-mile away from my home becomes packed almost bumper to bumper. City dwellers who have taken two hours (remember they have been in miles of city-type traffic) to ride past my little hamlet on the way to the higher altitudes are already cranky. Later in the day, the traffic moves in the other direction on their way back to the completion of a four-hour round trip. I question the degree of their enjoyment.
And that's it for the year! -- their very brief view of what Mother Nature presents to me every day from the time the green starts to change to that day when the last leaf falls. Every morning I get out on this highway and travel the 16 miles to my office -- 10% of it being houses and 90% fields, cows, horses, and a constant show of brilliant color. I am indeed blessed. As I enter the Fall of my life, I count my blessings that my final residence on this planet is where I can sit on my front porch, admire the distant mountains, feel the brisk breeze, and listen to the slow sounds of the crickets telling me of the temperature change.

Robby

I will say that I do miss seeing the leaves as they turn. I remember seeing some really beautiful sights in New Hampshire and Massachusetts. However as I sit here I am enjoying a wonderful concert of mocking birds mating. I guess that means we will soon see some new baby birds. I had been out for awhile and that concert is what greeted me when I returned and got out of my car. One bird was quite large, the other looked about the size of a sparrow but she was holding her own in responding.

Robby your front porch sounds so comforting,like a place to come home too,eh?

I remember a place very comforting to be at Tahoe on the front porch of a Mercantile where there were benchs and chairs and everyone sat down for awhile to visit when they went shopping in our little tiny town.(in off season pop. 50) This in the thirties of course. It was a great place to watch the lake too with no obstructions at all down to the lake. In the fall the late afternoon thunderstorms came blowing up fast and the lighning over the water was fantastic but the grownups always called we children into the store.

We had little fall color as Tahoe forest has mostly evergreens and in wet spots willows that just lose leaves in the cold. However at a slightly lower altitude you come upon Aspens on the southeast trip down into Nevada.

The most fall color I have ever seen was on the western slopes of the Rockie mountains. There the Aspens turn bright red and when you look down the slopes into the canyons it appears as if there is a bright red river of fire running down through the evergreen pine and fir. Standing on the edge of the viewarea on the continental divide looking down those slopes was a big thrill for me.

I do a drive here into the foothills to see the color changes, not so spectacular as I could wish this year but we still have some time to go. Here, we get more color in November.faith

I just saw "Horatio's Drive" , a week late, lucky for me PBS reruns a lot of their shows, it was amazing. I see the discussion is closed now and you're onto a new subect, "fall colors."

Louise, I've seen some spectacular foliage displays up in New Hampshire, and in Massachusetts too, the Berkshires are gorgeous. It is so exhilarating to take a walk in the park near our house on one of those beautiful sunny days, with a bright blue sky, the air crisp and clean and see the beautiful fall colors, this is my absolutely favorite time of the year.

Hallie Mae

Marjorie, thank you for placing the Autumn Leaves link in the heading. Marjorie, the low angle of the sun this time of year really presents a driving hazard it shines straight into my car windshield. I try to avoid driving around 5 or 6' PM
Jane, you know, I have noticed the dryness of the leaves this year there's no luster to them and we had a very rainy summer here in western Pennsylvania. Maybe that's what caused the dryness.
Ginny and Robbie the both of you are so fortunate to live in the areas you mentioned Yes Virginia is a lovely state. I have driven the Skyline Drive and found the views breath taking however, I never drove it at this time of the year
Robbie, I imagine the beauty of scenery played an important roll in moving to your present location?
Louise, you say you miss the fall foliage of New England. Where do you live now.
Hallie Mae, I have toured the New England states twice ast this time of the year and neither time was I disappointed. I enjoyed those trips immensely especially the Clam Chowder.
Faithr, if you ever get an opportunity please take a fall foliage tour. of some of the New England states or the areas Ginny and Robbie spoke of. I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Lorrie, glad your are enjoying the discussion.

Bill H

I love the Winter snow with its peace and quite time, Spring when New things come to life as they get watered, the summer sunshine to make things grow, But most of all I love the Fall when the colors become there most beautiful before they pass away.

I'm so thankful for the colors in all the seasons. Springtime is my favorite, for it's fun to see the world awaken to warmth and beauty after the cold starkness of winter. Tennessee is full of beautiful growing things - grasses, trees, bushes, flowers of all varieties - and when summer begins to turn to autumn, the colors are breathtakingly beautiful. I live in a small valley where there's a little stream at the bottom, just enough room for homes on one side of the street and the street. The houses in front of me are on the hillside and those in back are a long ways back and at the top of the ridge. So, I get to enjoy the beauties of nature each day as I drive down the street - looking to the right at the beauties of nature itself, and to the left at the beautifully manicured lawns of my neighbors.

One of my favorite pasttimes is to drive to the crest of a hill and gaze down below at the panorama that unfolds in front of me. This fall seems to be shaping up as one full of color and, with the mild temperatures, a perfect time to take a a bit of time to enjoy the beauties of nature.

Ruth Ann

Fall is my favorite time of the year!! I really enjoy the turning of the leaves which are supposed to spectacular this year, due to much rain in the summer. We are just getting the turning of the leaves started and I can view from my computer room, lots of different colors due to the vairiation of trees in our woods. This morning, I arose and looked out to see that some of the HUUUUUUGE Sycamore leaves are on the ground. It doesn't take many to cover our little grass around the village. But the red maples are still hanging onto their beauty! And the yellow aspens are in fall bloom. When the sun seems so bright, I usually say that its so clear and beautiful outside that it hurts my eyes. Also, has anyone noticed that some of the leaves are almost opaque colors that remind me of the wine from the vineyards of California? Too beautiful to describe. I would take pictures but they never seem to reflect what I am perceiving. Why is that?

Ginger, from your post I get the felling you enjoy life!
Welcome, Ruth Ann. Your home seems to be situated in the right spot for viewing those things you appreciate .And what a nice drive you have every day.
Hi, Ann. I'm so happy you are felling better. Good to have you back again. Much like in your area the leaves here in the Pittsburgh area are coming into there own. Today is one of those beautiful bright sunshine days that makes one appreciate fall.

Bill H

We would travel US 30 East out of Pittsburgh for our annual fall pilgrimage to see nature at its best. This highway winds through some of the most beautiful country in western Pennsylvania. Route 30 runs through the small cities of Latrobe and Ligoner, PA on its way to and over the Allegheny mountains. Beautiful Ligoner is home to some of the most affluent families in this region. If I'm not mistaken, golf great Arnold Palmer lives there. New England is highly noted for its fall scenery, however, western PA residents know that New England has no more beautiful scenery this time of year than our own state.
Our journey on this old highway would pass through magnificent fall scenery before bringing us to our goal which was the Look Out Hotel that sat on a cliff atop of one of the high areas in the Alleghenies. The Look Out was a very small hotel built in the shape of a ship. This small hotel had a dining area and gift shop--naturally. The menu of its dinning room was by no means the main attraction although the gift shop was quite nice. The deck was the most popular Look Out tourist attraction. Standing on this deck one could view seven counties and three states. Remember it was quite high there. Several view telescopes were placed on the deck and by feeding quarters into the telescopes one could bring the various distant scenes quite close. We would always dine at another restraint before starting the ride home.

Bill H

We have some lovely fall color here on the Gulf Coast, but nothing to equal the splendor further North. I once had the opportunity to take an autumn drive from Ohio, on the Kentucky border, east to Maryland. The colors were so marvelous, I hardly minded at all that my little car took so long to struggle up the hills! ..Babi

When I was President of our local Residents' Group, each year i would arrange an outing for all the Seniors in our building. I would ask the management for the use of their bus, with a driver, then we would drive over to Stillwater and take a Sunday morning champagne brunch cruise down the St. Rroix river and back. At this time of year, the banks on either side were a glorious mass of color. What a treat it was, on a sunny Indian summer day, to sit out on deck enjoying a tasteful brunch and sipping champagne while marveling at the Fall colors on either side!

Lorrie

Bill H. I live in sunny south Miami, Florida. We don't see too much seasonal changes. We are compensated by seeing beautiful trees and flowers all the time. Later on when it gets cold up north there re many who will join us and enjoy them too.

Bill, I do enjoy life. Seeing the seasons changing lets me know much about all life, even our own.

Yes, Louise and you don't have endure the cold winters either.
BaBi, I vacationed twice on the west coast. Once I took a tour up through the Giant Redwoods and on up the Oregon, however, it was not in fall. Now I'm wondering what the Sequoias would look like in the fall. Did you ever see them this time of year.
Lorrie, that outing you arranged sounded great. What a treat for the seniors, but I hope nobody got tipsy from too much Champaign ). It seems to me you were always doing nice things for the seniors in your residence.

Bill H

Ginger,
Very well said!

Bill H

Our Liquid Amber in our parking tries its best to provide a little color each fall but comes up short. We have taken the "tours" of the New England states during the fall and were spellbound by the contrasting colors. We "leaf peepers", as the locals call us, do add to the traffic situation and not too badly to their economy as well. Those tour operators know where to stop so we can shop! We have also toured via auto and stayed at a motel in Vermont whose setting was right out of a calendar photo. June took a picture of an outstandingly beautiful grove of trees that now is framed on our kitchen wall. Good memories there! losalbern

Bill my dad lived in Garborville which is on hwy 101 in the Redwood country ..if you keep driving on up the highway you get to Oregon. I have visited there many times of year and the Redwoods, or Sequoias are similiar to fir trees, they drop needles all year long but are evergreen. There are dogwood and red bud and a some other bushes that are decidious but only go yellowish and drop their leaves in the fall. My Dads property had lots of wild huckleberries and we helped him harvest, and they froze them and had them all year. One year he made huckleberry wine he had such a big crop. faith

One of my very favorite places to be any time of the year is the White Mountains in New Hampshire. The Mt. Washington Hotel, a big white rambling building with a porch all around and a red roof nestled in the mountains is a beautiful sight to see.

Hallie Mae

I think I like being a "leaf peeper!"

Ruth Ann

I am so sorry I have missed this ..somehow after doing Horations Drive I thought this subject was over...since this has always been my favorite time of the year I wouldnt miss talking and sharing autumn memories...

One year we drove to Vermont to see the foliage..I remember when we crossed the state line we held hands..it was a dream of ours to be there in the fall..and it didnt disappoint...everything looked just like the pictures I had seen all my life. I felt it was my spirtual home..Here in Virginia we have the Blue Ridge Mountains and fall is spectacular as well. When we were returning from a motor trip to California one year ...we came through Colorado and the Aspens looked like gold quivering in the air...it is a time of the year I want to hug and beg it not to go.....anna

Losalbern, I have been on those tours you spoke of and I agree those tour operators know where to stop. I often wonder if they get a little kick back.
Faithr, I toured the Oregon coast and what a marvelous trip that was The rugged coast of that state is beautiful to behold. I had an in-law that would make huckleberry wine. Your post reminded me of him.
Hallie Mae, our tour bus took us to the White Mountains on our New England trip, however, our stay was not at the Mt. Washington Hotel. I wish we had. stayed there.
Anna, so glad you found us in time. You know the old saying "Better late than never."
Ginger, you are welcome.

Bill H

Actually I don't have to travel very far to see a fine-looking display of Autumn leaves. Allegheny County in Pennsylvania has two enormous public parks to wit: North and South Park. The latter is not far from where I live. Along with the usual swimming pools, skating rinks, etc. South Park has vast wooded acreage much like a forest. and you can just imagine the riot of colors that are displayed in the fall.
When I was much younger, I shared lease a horse--Domino- at the Park's stables, and I would trail ride the wooded areas but I always made sure I rode with somebody. Every body did. You see, if you didn't know the trails it was quite easy to lose your way Fortunately I never got lost.. But this time of year was the best for trail riding. It was great to ride through those sun dappled trails with the light illuminating the leaves. However, when the leaves started falling in great numbers after a heavy rain it was best not to trail ride because the leaves made the ground quite slippery even for a horse and you didn't want a horse slipping and falling on top of you. But it was great to ride amongst all that splendor.

Bill H

Well, now fall's work begins. Some areas of western PA had severe windstorms last night, however, I wasn't affected by them. But now the leaves are starting to fall and my back yard has quite a lot of them on the ground and my thoughts have turned to the two rakes I keep in my garage ( .
No more burning leaves in the out door fireplace, haven't been able to do that for a number of years. We must rake the leaves and pack them in brown recyclable bags made and sold for that purpose Then place the bags curbside for the township trucks to pick up and take to the municipalities compost site.. This goes on all through the month of October and the first two weeks in November. After that any residue leaves must be kept on the home premises until the first week in April then the township will once again pick up the curbside leaves for the two more weeks. As I said no more burning leaves. Must conform to the states anti air pollution regulations. I suppose this does help, but when I see the diesel truck and busses blowing black smoke out of there exhausts pipes I just smile and keep packing the bags with the fallen leaves.
Do you folks have laws pertaining to leaf disposal?

Bill H

Bill, we can't burn either so I leave my leaves on the ground to help keep the grass warm for the winter as I feel that the leaves are there for a purpose and with the first lawn cutting in the spring they are gone, chopped up I think. we use to burn the leaves where they lay and it was good for the soil.

I think there are very few places where you are allowed to burn the leaves any more, and in a way, it's a shame. Tht smell of burning leaves every Fall was a sure idicator of what season of the year it was, and it was always a harbinger of Halloween and upcoming Thanksgiving. I miss it.

Even out in the "boonies" where we lived, people were not allowed to burn haphazardly, etc. My husband was the town marshall and we had to issue the burn permits when they were requested, and they were often denied, especially during the high risk of brush fires. If a homeowner or tenant started a fire illegally, the smoke was usually seen by the spotters and if a fire truck had to be sent out, a huge fine was levied to the transgressor.

Still, in the city, there was something about the scent of smouldering leaves that brought back memories.

Lorrie

Gold of a ripe oat straw, gold of a southwest moon,
Canada thistle blue and flimmering larkspur blue,
Tomatoes shining in the October sun with red hearts, —

Carl Sandburg (1878–1967) "Cornhuskers," Falltime (1918)

Lorrie

Burnng leaves...yes I loved that in fall. Now like all of you we have to package them A few years ago I did by a leaf bagger that also mulched the leaves and I put them in a makeshift compost pile to do their thing over winter..and then add it back in spring.

The leaves here are mostly green but they are more a yellow green than that deep green of August.The dogwood is the one exception..they have been changed for about 10 days...almost a plum shade...and drooping down...like they know they are going to be falling soon.

I wrote a poem about Autumn and if I can find it I will post it here...my poems are about nature for the most part and the day I wrote the poem it was the first day of Autumn...you couldnt have chosen a better topic.

anna

Bill H. we can't burn leaves here either.(Brockton, MA) I don't know whether it's a town or state law because in some of the smaller surrounding towns I've seen some people burning leaves. Maybe they're just being Yankee cantankarous. (: Our yard is rather large and surrounded by trees so we often leave most of them to cover the grass during the winter. I too remember the wonderful smell of burning leaves.

Anna, I hope you find your poem, I'd love to read it.

Hallie Mae

My yard doesn't have the two trees that made the most leaf piles anymore - both were removed just this year.

But, I remember all the fun the kids and I used to have, jumping and crunching through the piles of leaves as we raked them. <smile>

Ruth Ann

Ginger, I heard that allowing the leaves to remain on the ground over the winter will mat the grass. Do you find this to be the case? Lorrie, I loved that quote. Thank you for posting it. Everybody I talk with tells me that Fall is there favorite time of the year. Wonder why that is?
Anna, I love the smell of burning leaves also. When I was a child I knew the smell of burning leaves was a forerunner of the holidays. I do hope you can find the poem you wrote I would love to read it.
Hallie Mae, with all the trees surrounding your yard do you use a leaf mulcher to get rid of them in the spring?
Ruth Ann, I know what you mean about big trees. I had two large Silver Maples in my back yard, but I had them removed years ago. I'm so glad I did otherwise I'd be raking… and packing leaves in brown bags morning, noon, and night.

Bill H

In this trailer park the occupant is responsible for the trees but cant remove them. I have two huge 30 ft high non fruiting mulberry trees that constantly drop dead leaves. Not just in cold weather but all year. It also drops limbs constantly. The park managers will not thin out these trees. I have spent lots of money getting them trimmed away from my house and roof etc. Nothing grows in that side yard. The months of November and December those trees drop leaves so fast and furious it is hard to keep up with them. About the middle of Jan they are finally bare.

Then by may they are setting their seeds which drop and look like long green worms. If the pollen gets on my skin it blisters and my ankles often look all flea bitten from this. Now I love the shade and I love the birds and squirrels that live up these tree s but I hate the mess. You cant just leave the leaves on the ground though as they don't turn into mulch. They just turn into some kind of slippery muddy mess when it rains and it mildews too. Strange tress. Maybe I should raise silk worms in them.

If they would turn red and bright yellow it would be great but they just get brown. Faith

FAITH, Thats the spirit get some silk worms. Make lemonaide out of` the lemons so to speak.

Bill, before I sold my house I had many oak and they did Not seem to lay the grass down as the leaves were cut on the first mowing. Where I live now I had many pines that I lost in one of our tornado so it was mostly pine needles that I also just left on the ground and did not seem to hurt the grass but now I have a few silver maples and leave the leaves on the ground but there maybe leaves that will lay the grass down, I don't know.

Leaves provide good nutrients for the dirt under your lawn. You should mulch them by using your lawn mower, mowing the leaves instead of the grass. Chopped up like that, leaves will decompose nicely over the winter. Large leaves, like oak, should never be left "unchopped", since they will mat and mold, and make the ground slippery when wet. Pine needles make very good winter cover for the plants in your flower beds. Pile them high, and some birds will sleep among these needles on cold winter nights.

Howzat

Faithr, they don't sound like very nice trees.
Ginger, I had two Silver Maples and I had to have them removed because of there surface roots. Some of those roots were as thick as my arms and it was reaching the point where I couldn't manage my power mower through them.
Howzat, a very informative post.

Bill H

I don't understand unless they were not planted deep enough as my silver maples don't have roots on top of the ground.

Howzat, thanks for the tip, never thought of that.

Bill, in the spring we are busy cleaning the pool cover of accumulated water and leaves, buckets of soppy wet yucky leaves - the pool is fairly large, 18' by 36', it's a real job getting the darn thing ready for the summer which is so brief here!

Hallie Mae

It's interesting about trees...the Library here will have to have all 6 trees removed...DNR man says they were planted too deep...about 50 years ago! Now they're dying and will need replacement over the next 10 years. One's been taken down and in the spring something else will be planted...maybe a flowering tree of some type.

We're not allowed to burn here in the city, but they do pick up leaves put into the street 24 hours before the scheduled pickup. Once a week they do this...different days for different sections of town. We got some out for the first pickup, scheduled for yesterday, but they didn't get to us until today. It helps. We also load up tarps with leaves and take them to the compost dump, too. The others I'll mulch with the mower. They're too many of them to mulch them all.

Our other fall chore my husband just finished...splitting firewood for the winter. A neighbor had a tree taken down, so we got as much of the wood as we wanted and husband cut it with chain saw and he then rented a log splitter today and split it and stacked it. I think we have enough for a couple of winters since we don't use the woodburner all the time that's in the family room, but nice on a cold, blustery, snowy day!

Just this afternoon, I spent outside blowing leaves. Some I put into those old orange plastic bags with a face like a jack o' lantern and placed them around the evergreens in the front of the house. The rest, I put in the street by the curb where the city will pick them up during Oct and Nov. They use them for mulch in the many gardens the county maintains all around us. The other day, my neighbor mowed his lawn and cut up all the leaves (both of us have leaf covered lawns) so it looked clean. Woke up in the morning and the lawn was solid leaves again.

I live on a corner and can look down the street in several directions and see the gorgeous colors on the trees, but it sure helps to have sunshine. I remember that last year was so very grey all fall and the leaves were not so pretty. I have travelled many parts of the USA and remember when we returned to the mid-west from the west and there were trees again. So barren in the Dakotas.

I am new to these sites and really enjoyed reading the postings about the fall season. It is beautiful here in MI right now and I am making the effort to enjoy it as much as possible for it is fleeting and soon will be gone. By Halloween our leaves will all be gone. It will be the time of rest and renewal. Working in my garden I am so aware of this cycle.

Welcome Jo Ann, and thank you for joining our discussion. Yes, the fall season is fast fleeting. Gone before we realize it and the trips some of us planned to take disappear with the fleeting moment.

Bill H

Ginger, perhaps my Silver Maples weren't planted deep enough, but mine had terrible surface roots.
Hallie Mae, a pool is a lot of work, but just think of all the enjoyment you get out of it during the summer months. You must have so much fun.
Jane, your post awakened two thought in my mind. First, when I was in grade school I was one of the students selected to plant trees around the parameters of the new grade school that had just opened. They were only saplings then, but I took a ride back to the old neighborhood a few months ago and my how they have grown.
Second, when we first started recycling the leaves we were asked to rake them curb side into the street and then the township truck would come along and vacuum them up. However, sometimes it would rain before the truck arrived and the leaves would be washed down the catch basin of the streets thereby clogging the sewers. It didn't take the township counsel members long to call a halt to this practice. We bag them now.
O'Sharney, it sure helps to have the sunshine otherwise the leaves look so dull, and today is one of those dull days here in the 'Burg.

Bill H

Someone mentioned here about how they avoided driving in the afternoon because of how bright the sun is. I know when I drive in the morning I can easily become sun blinded - is it my imagination or is the sun sharper in the fall?

Bill, we used to enjoy our pool a lot more when our grandchildren were little, now they are teenagers and prefer the beach!

Hallie Mae

Bill my Landscape Design Contractor Grandson in law told me that the reason my trees have all the roots pop up on top of the ground is because of shallow watering of the lawn area around them, and never the deep watering. He bought me some gadgets you sick in the ground between 10 and 20 inches,around the drip line of the tree then in the top there is a place for fertilizer when you need it and a hose hook up. This was to late to stop my mulberrys from doing the same as your silver maples. But in the process of growing and doing this root thing they killed out all the lawn on two lots. It tore up the sprinkler system too so these really are not very nice trees. Everybody in the 50's and 60's planted them but not now. Now they use elms or maples. Faith

Hallie Mae, I've often wondered the very same thing. Maybe it has something to do with the angle at which the sun hits the earth at different seasons of the year.

If Oscar is lurking, I'll be YOU can set us straight!

Ruth Ann

Well, I m from Ontario and our leaves up here have been so colorful of late

I even have geraniums still blooming in my window.

Now.. can someone tell me where I ask:

about a good thriller .. crime .. book there are a few spots here just not sure where to post.

many thanks..

Have a wonderful fall day.. and I will read this about the Diabetes later

v.. interesting..

Dolpy...

I cant believe.. we are so far into October and such lovely weather here..

Hallie, the sun is actually closer to earth in the fall-winter season, so maybe that's why it seems brighter. And as Ruth Ann says, it shines down at an angle, which is why it's not hotter, even tho' it's closer. You have a sharp eye for light and color. ...Babi

Hallie Mae, I was the one that mentioned the sun's blinding rays. I don't know how else to explain this, but with the tilting of the earth at the different seasons of the year the sun seems to be at a lower angel this time of the year. Perhaps someone else can shed some light on this (no pun intended).
Faithr, that was the best explanation I've heard pertaining to surface roots. It makes a lot of sense. I knew about deep fertilizing, however, I never did water deeply around the trees.

Bill H

Dolphina, welcome to the discussion and Senior Net. Dolphina, there are several places/discussions in Books and Literature where you can ask and find out about crime thrillers, to wit:
In the Books and Lit index you will find "Action/Adventure/Horror and Suspense," then scroll down to "Classical Mysteries," and "Mystery Corner." These are all very good discussions and I'm sure you will find what you are looking for if you visit them.

Bill H

I'll that.. this site here looked so attractive and the topic is heartwarming..

back later on

Dolphy Im in Canada..

but lived in US. San Fran and New England..

Happy Autumn to all

The roots on the elm tree in our front yard have risen to the surface during an extended series of dry summers. They were never visible any more, and now, poor tree, the ground around it looks like it has varicose veins! I was working 18-20 hours a day for several years, and it just had to fend for itself. Now, that I'm nearing retirement, I'm simmering down to a roar - probably not more than 45-50 hours a week. <tired smile>

Ruth Ann

I have so enjoyed everyone's comments on the beauty of autum. I too love the colors. However I felt like I had spilled my glass of lemonade and yep the glass was half empty. But, for some of you the color does begin to fade as we try to keep these beautys out of our pool, our eave troughs,(?) and buying Ben Gay by the case because of our aching back from picking up ALL THOSE LEAVES! I think we would all agree that it would be better is there was more lasting color and less FALL!

Marge

Camper2, welcome to the discussion. My aching back will start when I begin raking those devil leaves. Happy you are enjoying the Fall and our discussion.
Dolphy, no problem. I'm glad I could help out and happy you found all our crime book discussions. Don't forget to look in on Classical Mysteries these old timers are great!
Ruth Ann, please don't work so hard.

Bill H

Babi and Bill, Aha, so that explains it, thanks. Now Ruth Ann and I have a decent explanation for that extra bright sunlight and it's not our imagination.

Hallie Mae

The month of October brings us that mysterious fall day known as Halloween. The schools in our area used to have Halloween parties for the kids in Kindergarten through 3rd. or 4th. grade. We would watch as they road past the house on board the school bus dressed in there clown or skeleton costumes, etc. Oh what fun they had at their class room parties. Each child would bring along some sort of goody made by the parents, and the school, usually the teacher, would provide the party favors.
Now long before school buses came along the kids would walk to school in there costumes accompanied by their parents. What a sight to see as they paraded along. Then would come Halloween night and the children guided by parents would travel door to door seeking treats and other goodies. I don't see much of that in my neighborhood any more. Trick or treating is usually over by seven or eight O'clock
Perhaps you can tell us of some of the Halloween experiences you had. Maybe you could relate some of the parties you went to either as a kid or grown up! Do your schools still have Halloween parties for the kids? In another post I'll tell you about a Halloween party we went to at the local Veterans of Foreign Wars club.

Bill H

Many years ago, the Chicago Tribune used to run a picture, every October, a drawing of an old man leaning against a tree, looking out over the shocked wheat fields with the tied bundles of wheat here and there, definitely with a feel of autumn that you can see. He is explaining to his grandson, apparently, how it was not so long ago that those same wheat fields were filled with "Injuns", and then in the next picture, the bundles of wheat magically become Native Americans, doing a war dance, and the autumn haze turns int smoke from their fires. It was a famous drawing, and eventually became a sort of Fall trademark of the Tribune. I remember how my father made a point of looking for that particular issue every year. He loved that picture!

Lorrie

Bill,

Apparently, there are some who claim that Halloween is "Satanic" and want it eliminated from schools and "Trick or Treating" stopped.

Tiger Tom

Lorrie, I would loved to see have seen those pictures the Chicago Tribune illustrated What a fall perk that was!
Tom, yes, there are always kill-joys with us. And the most hypocritical of it all is that these same people who want Halloween removed because of what you posted are the one's who want prayer removed from schools and other public functions. To me, it seems that these people are very unhappy with life and want others to share there misery. In other words there cup is always half empty and never half full.

Bill H

BILL, are you sure you didn't get that backwards? In my neck of the woods, the folks who feel Halloween is pagan or satanic are the ones who don't want prayer removed from the schools, etc.

For several years in this part of the country, parents stopped letting their children go trick-or-treating and had parties for the kids instead. There were simply too many instances of children being harmed by 'treats' that some sick adult had given them. In my own town, one man used the opportunity to poison his own son and collect the life insurance. The "fun" wasn't worth the risk. ...Babi

Click on this and you will learn where Halloween came from.

http://www.wilstar.net/holidays/

Click on the one for Halloween. You need to wait a bit for it to load, then scroll down. There is a bit of sound, but no screams or anything like that.

Howzat

To go back to leaves for a moment, I had posted that we put leaves in the street and they are picked up by the city to use in the gardens. I remembered that last year, a car parked in the street on top of the leaves and then set them on fire with the hot undercarraige (what part of the car was this?) and of course the car caught fire and was destroyed. Don't drivers know not to park on leaves in the street?

O'Sharny, I did not know that parking on leaves would make them catch fire, but I have had fires from mowers sometimes as the leaves caught in the undercarriage and overheated!

Oh the Halloweens of my childhood, where has that time gone? We all trooped out with our bags on Halloween, the day after Mischief Night, remember that one? Yes we trooped out in bands of children and at every house we had to come IN and eat cookies and drink cider and hot cocoa while the homeowner guessed who we ALL were! Yes! It took ALL night, and made the candy hungry child very anxious and shuffling toward the door, would that happen now? I can still remember some of the things which were said, they ALWAYS guessed me for some reason.

Our little town in PA would have a contest for the best Halloween window and the high school kids and even elementary school kids painted the windows of each store very creatively, (I don't know with what) but the effect was magic, those days long gone, and perhaps rightfully so, by the time my small children wanted to Trick or Treat we pretty much stayed in the immediate neighborhood and finally adjourned to making Trick or Treat parties at the church: it was not safe otherwise. Now in this area children go thru the Mall or in the grocery stores where they have people dressed up in the various sections like clowns, etc., and give away treats, it's cute to see them.

We have not had a trick or treater here on the farm in 23 years.

When we moved here the children were disappointed not to trick or treat so we did hay rides, bobbing for apples, and games: (have you ever done the one where you pass the body parts? So fun, here's his eyes (grapes) etc? It sounds macabre but was fun, and we did our own parties, but ended up at the church's Halloween Parties, in the end.

ginny

The first year I worked in our office building (a huge, modern building), I noticed spooks and goblins dashing about on Halloween. Next year, our unit had a "dress up" contest. I borrowed a friend's evening gown, got all "dolled up" and won the prize for "best dressed" - my slogan? "I'm all dressed up with no place to go." <grin> lots of fun.

Ruth Ann

Oh, yes - I forgot to tell you - the department manager came dressed as a hippy (and wore the clothing he really DID wear at Woodstock!!)

Ruth Ann

Thank you for the welcome!

My most recent memory of this time of year includes my grandchildren. Alas, they are all grown up now and in HS and college. When they were little we would have leaf raking parties. We would make huge piles and throw wrapped candy in the piles. They would jump in those piles of red and gold leaves searching through their little mountains and squealing with delight at finding their the buried candy treasures. The leaves were finally piled in the cart behind the mower along with a child or two and the leaves were taken down to the empty lot. After everyone was thoroughly tired and chilly (some autums downright cold) we would roast hot dogs and marshmallows in the fireplace. Oh for the "good old days."

Marge

BaBi, I agree with you that door to door trick or treating is very kdangerous. The parents in our neighborhood have house parties for the little ones also. Do you know if the schools in your area have class room parties for the little ones?

Howzat, thank you for that great link! I bookmarked it for future reference. I loved the idea that they listed all the holidays.

O'Sharney, what you told us aout a car catching on fire by parking over dried leaves happened to the brother of a very good friend of mine. He parked his car in front of his house over leaves and sure enough the hot catalytic converter (something to do with the exhause ystem of a car) ignited the leaves and his car caught fire. The fire department arrived to late to save his car but they did prevent further damage to other property.

Ginny, in our neck of the woods we called "Mischief Night," "Devils Night." And that was a heart warming post. It sounds pretty much what the youngsters of my era would do. The kids couldn't wait till they got dressed in there costumes.

Bill H

Ruth Ann, that must have been great fun. I suppose some folks wore very elaborate costumes. What did the other people in the building think of all this:o)
Camper2, yes, indded they were the good old days. By the way, I hope they got the child or two out of the cart before taking the leaves to the empty lot )

Bill H

like your picture there Bill

there are alwsyas Killjoys arent there??

we have to be careful in todays world of everything that is all just precautions..

but we still can enjoy

dolph

CAMPER2, your leaf raking party sounds like so much fun. I've never heard of one like it before. Jumping into a pile of leaves is fun all by itself, but with candy, too! And using the bonfire of the leaves for hot dogs and toasted marshmallows...ah, I wish I had been there. ...Babi

Camper2, that sounds like such a lot of fun!

When I was a kid (in the 30s) we did not trick or treat, we dressed up in our made up outfits, nothing bought at the store, and trooped around the neighborhood checking each other out. . The boys would do mischief such as soap people's windows or yank down a fence or two. We would go back to my grandparents house and bob for apples and try to eat a doughnut on a string. When I was 12 we moved to Chicago, or rather Evanston, IL and I was introduced to trick or treating, the only year I went because then 13 was too old to trick or treat.

When my children were small, we knew all the neighbors and we walked around in groups with our kids tricking and treating. T Nowadays, we have children being driven into our neighborhood by parents from heaven knows where. Plus we get the big gloms who can't give it up, they stand there , taller than me and say "trick or treat "in a baritone voice. (:

Hallie Mae

It wasn't just our department that dressed. One man came to work dressed as Fred Flintstone, and later that afternoon his wife brought the baby and, yes, they were Flintstones, too, including she had pulled the baby's wispy hair up into a little pony tail that stuck straight up.

The custom here at work is that if the children come to the workplace dressed in costume, THEY are the ones who hand out the goodies to the office workers. Lots of good clean fun had by all.

Ruth Ann

Hallie Mae,

We too get the "Kids" who cannot give it up.

Very tall boys who shave and have deep voices and girls who could enter the Miss Universe Contest and easily win.

Tiger Tom

This thing is, Halloween is still a fun holiday, and it is hard for the kids to give up the treats and the fun. I have one teen who finds a neighbor who would like some help with her little ones, and so she gets to go out yet. She dresses up and the little kids love it.

In our community, we still have a lot of trick-or-treating. There used to be community parties and haunted houses, etc., but that's a lot of work. Seems as though the fun things drift away as we take life so seriously.

I walk out my back door into a burst of yellow sunlight from my neighbor's bright maple tree - even on a cloudy day. I look forward to that every year, even though those bright yellow leaves end up on my lawn when they let go of the tree!

N

As I read all your Halloween posts of what you did in by gone times and the parties you went to, I was reminded of the Halloween party the memory of which has stayed with me over the years.
My wife and I and three other couples attended a Halloween costume party at the Veterans of Foreign Wars post in a neighborhood not too far from were we lived. We all wore costumes and mine was a home made job to imitate the Frankenstein Monster. My wife fixed up an old black suit of mine by putting extra padding in the shoulders and using a rope for a belt. I just had to buy the pull on head mask and hands, but come to think of it, maybe I didn't need to buy the head mask either ).
Around midnight we all had to parade around the dance floor one at a time in order for the applause to pick the winner. Well by that time most of us were felling the effects of the sprits (pun intended ) and I put on quite a performance as I walked around imitating the monster. I won first prize which was a box of cigars. I passed them around as far as they would go, but when all the guys lit them up the cigars were as stale as they could be. A Halloween trick or treat by the club.

Bill H

Nhome, that was a very enterprising teen age baby sitter.

We still have one or two haunted housed in our region--not really haunted--that are fixed up for Halloween for the kids to visit and go through the spooky rooms. These fun houses are advertised on the local TV news channels. In fact the TV news programs have been telling about them for the past week. I believe the adults that accompany those kids enjoy it as much as the children. I've never gone through them but I have been told by the parents that some of the rooms are fixed up quite elaborate. However, I'm not sure if any treats are given to the kids.

Bill H

another topic i know

but do u people believe in them???

dolph

PS THIS IS A big book Bill

oh my goodness..

LOL

Here in our area we used to have one of the BEST haunted house ever. That includes the one at Disney World we think. Ours was put on by the Jaycees and those fellows outdid themselves. They had car lights that came screaming at you, a chain saw man ready to deacapitate you, bodies that rose from caskets....believe me it was not for the feint of heart! And hey, I was just a Mom that drove the preteen boys there and got scared out of my wits! (while they boasted it was pretty good but not that great). Yeah, right! Do you remember the bravado we showed at THAT age while secretly trying to quiet our thumping hearts?

It's just too bad, that because of a lack volunteers, it no longer exists. But... the fire department has a runner up with it's Haunted Woods. Just in case someone is keeping score... I guess all that doesn't compare with the stories of old man Jones having the outhouse tipped over while he was in it one Halloween night! And of course, ""the whole town knows who was responsible! "Those boys were always up to no good..hump!"

Marge

Marge, that haunted house you spoke of sounded great! I would've loved to have seen that. I bet a lot of adults went through that place also and had just as much fun as the kids.

Bill H

OH, The memories of days Gone By, OH Yes I remember the tipping over of the Outhouses as I got my hand in the door and almost hit the hole in it. Smile, Truth.

Then the Hayrides OH yes with smell of the hay and the Horses and later on the tractor pulling the hay wagon. Mr. Dunnuck was a special person to all of us children and I will Never forget him.

We also took from the fields of the pumkin farmers and Never thought a thing about it untill he shot his buckshot in the air. OH that was scary as some one was shooting at us. Yikes, Now I understand So much more then I did then. But it was Good times so long ago but I remember them so well.

I do so Hope that the generations to follow have such good memories as those we the days.

Oh, Ginger, you gave us great memories in that post. I laughed so hard at the one about the out house tipping over:o) It's memories like yours that still bring happiness to us.

Bill H

The Doughboy of WW 1

There are two more holidays this fall and one of them is just a few weeks away. We old timers remember it as Armistice Day. Now it is called Veterans Day in honor of all the American Veterans that served this great country of ours.

Come November 11th most of the municipalities will have parades. The horns will be blaring, the drums rum tuming and the pretty young Majorettes will be at the head of the columns leading them on. Fall is great!

When I was a kid Mom would take me downtown Pittsburgh where the biggest parade of all was being staged. She wanted to see her brother marching along just as much as I did. In those days they had mounted police officers riding on horse back along side the parade to make sure nobody got out of line with the marchers. I believe I liked to watch the horses best of all.

After the last of the parade went past, Mom would take me to Murphy's 5 and 10 cent store for a big mug of root beer and a great hot dog with mustard and onions (my mouth is beginning to water as I write this). Neither the hot dog or the mug of root beer was more than 10 cents, each. As Archie Bunker used to say, "Those were the days."

How about you folks telling us your experiences on Armistice/Veterans Day?

Bill H

Bill H,

One last thing re the Outhouses:

My Father used to say that when he was a young Teen they would move the Outhouse back behind the Hole rather than tip it over. I wonder how many people going out to use the Outhouse, half awake, might have fallen into the Hole.

Tiger Tom

Tom
What a rude awaking they would've got if by chance anybody did step in the hole while half awake )

Bill H

Down here, the place to go for hot dogs, with chili of course, was James Coney Island. They're still around, but either they are not as good or I can't enjoy them as I once did. But I still find my mouth watering at the memory! ...Babi

One more thing about Halloween, my neighbor goes all out for it.. He builds a "tunnel" for the kids to walk through with all sorts of creepy stuff in it. He has a ghostly figure strung up with some bats and other ghoulish stuff and his lawn is full of pumpkins, goblins and witches.

Tiger Tom, yuck! (:

Hallie Mae

Once I got so hungry for an oldfashioned ball park hot dog that I actually order one in a very nice restuarant when my sis and bil took me out to dinner. They laughed at me and I just said, you wait till you smell this hot dog. Well it was a greeeeaaatttt hotdog but a little fancy with a sourdough french roll, a huge fat weiner of the garlic susage type and saurkraute and chopped dill pickles and mustard. It was served with a big choice of sides so I took the green salad to be good to my nutrition :>) and it was so delicious I didnt even mind having heart burn for a few hours. But you know, it still wasnt as good as the memories are. Faith

I have so enjoyed everyone's posts on Halloween! I must confess that Veteran's Day was never a big deal in the small town where I grew up. Now that I'm older, (oh yeah) and married to a veteran I am looking forward to the posts of how this holiday was marked by others.

Marge

BaBi, you are not going to believe this but I never ate a chili dog and I love Chili! My aunt used to call it Chili carnie con , however, I never hear it called that any more. So where did the name con carnie come from?
Hallie Mae, you have a great neighborhood. Several of my neighbors fix there yards up at various holidays. The guy on the corner does a great job with his front yard, in fact, he already has the Halloween stuff out and it looks good. He has a couple of grand children and they get a real kick out of it.
Faithr, I'm sure your hot dog tasted great but, you know, I still long for that hot dog and root beer that Murphy's 5 and dime had. I can't find one that good. I guess my taste buds faded through the years. )
Camper2, It is heart warming to hear that folks are enjoying the discussion. Thank you.

Bill H

Hey, Bill,

To further confuse the issue of the definition of chili con carne, follow this link <smile>:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/blunt64.html

Ruth Ann

Ahhhh, Rut Ann, so chili con carne means with meat! . After all these years I finaly found out what chili con carne means. Thank you for that link. in your last post. I believe it explained that food in great detail ) However I believe the best chili was made by one of my aunts and it was chili con carne. How good that was. She gave the recipe to my wife after I married. You know, I still make if for myself even to day.

Bill H

Well, BILL, it's 'chili con carne', which is Spanish for "peppers with meat". We would consider it meat with peppers, but you get the idea.

Ruth Ann's article is very true. There are chili cook-offs down here every year, and sometimes more often. You'll see crowds of people gathered and dozens of contenders cooking up their special version of the dish. Everybody samples all the dishes and votes for the one they like best. There is even a delicious "white chili" made with chicken, peppers, onions and white beans. I have the recipe if you would like to try it. Don't be fooled, tho'; this one is as hot as the red chili. ...Babi

Well, BaBi, I think I will pass on the hot chili. I'd be running for the Maalox after eating it. I like to eat chili con carne over mashed potatoes.

Bill H

Bill,

How can you do that to the Royal Spud?

How can you do that to Chili?

Mix the two?

No accounting for taste. Some people like Ketchup on their Eggs!!

Tiger Tom

Tom, don't knock it till you tried it ) You gonna like it!!

Bill H

Daylight Savings Time Will End…

Another annual fall event is the ending of Daylight Savings Time. This year it ends October 26th. at 2: AM Sunday morning. Set your clocks by following the old ad adage: "Spring forward. Fall back."

My computer clock is automatically set for me and, thank heavens, so is my VCR clock. I, however, must set the rest of them. But I don't wait up till 2: AM. No. I do that before retiring. HAHA, we get an extra hour of sleep. Now I know why I love fall

Bill H

I would suggest that none of you order "chili" while visiting in Mexico. It will come to you in a bowl, the contents of which will be light green in color, and if you eat it, will set your mouth on fire, and if you swallow it, will. . . Oh, I can't bear to tell you the rest.

Howzat

There was a presentation on one of the cooking shows on PBS recently on how to make "real" chili. They use chunks of beef, using tomatoes was a big no no! They way I make what I call chili basically uses ground beef, stewed tomatoes and kidney beans.

When Bill mentions the 5 and dime, doesn't it make you miss Woolworth's and Kresge's? When I was a kid that was where I did my Christmas shopping.. . . 5 cents for powder puffs for the aunts, 10 cents for big hairpins for my grandmother, cologne for my mother, didn't they have "evening in Paris" cologne? Haven't seen that for years.

Hallie Mae

Hallie Mae,

In Seattle (on the West Coast) Kresge was known as Kress's. What I remember most of the downtown store was when one walked in the Candy Counter was on the immediate left. They sold Candy covered Apples (Red Candy Coating on the Apples) and Coconut Bon Bon's of all colors and flavors. I would buy one of the Candy Apples and a half pound of Bon Bon's. I dearly loved both. Of course, I was just a boy then.

Tiger Tom

My favorite was the gummy orange slice candy that was covered with sparkly sugar.

Ruth Ann

My favorite was the little pot of chocolate that came with the little metal spoon. We also had a 5 and dime called Green's and it was where we bought Evening In Paris for our Mom. If you went all the way to the back of the store they had nativity figures and candles for a nickle or a dime. I used to buy them whenever I had a little money. I still have most of them. I just bought the animals and the little candles. But wrong discussion I guess. I should take a picture.

Hallie Mae, Now your talking my kind of chille and I do love it.

Aw the 5 and dime was a favorite where at there fountian you could get a coke and every thing else you wanted like the evening in Paris perfume etc. just any thing you could every want it seemed to me at the time.

Those were the days.

Way, way back when, My grandmother would give each of us a dollar bill to do our Christmas shopping. Off we would go to Woolworth's where I was able to buy a gift for each member of my family, that was my three siblings, mother, father and grandma. And i usually had enough left over to buy a few of those orange slices. All without leaving the store!

Lorrie

And do you remember that if you dug around the cushions of the furniture, you could usually come up with enough change for the Saturday matinee?

Speaking of movies, there's another typical feature of Halloween. All the scary movies that would come out in time for the season. My all-time scariest movie, tho', I saw after I was grown and married. My husband and I went to see "The Body Snatchers". We came out of that movie in numb silence, walked to the car, looked at each other, and in one accord opened the trunk to check before we got in the car. So help me! LOL, Babi

One of my first jobs when in high school was at Kresges' dime store. I started as a waitress in the soda department where we served meals also. Then on Monday evenings when the store was open til 9PM, I was advanced to the Brownies on the main floor.Oh, they were sooo good.

BaBi, my scariest were the Frankenstein flicks. I still count them as the leaders. The fact they were in black and white added to the drama of them.

O'Sharney, did you put on weight in the Brownie section?.

One other fall holiday I look forward to is Thanksgiving Day. This was an eventful day in my family. My aunt was a chef in one of the better downtown Pittsburgh restaurants before retiring, and for this family feast she would prepare two large turkeys with all the fixins. By fixins, I mean there were just so many different vegetables even rutabaga. I have never tasted rutabaga as good as she made it. The turkey in the graphic doesn't want to hear all of this ) Her sisters and sisters-in-law would help her with the preparations
The day after Thanksgiving was and still is the kick off for the holiday shopping season. In years gone by all the downtown department stores would have the window displays ready, featuring toys, animated dolls, elves and, of course, Santa Clause. This was before most of the department stores moved to the suburban malls. Somehow it doesn't seem the same.

Bill H

Sounds like we all have fond memories of the 5 and 10 cent stores. My first job was in Woolworth's behind the counter, they had home made doughnuts which I think I ate more of than the customers.

Ginger, I might of known we'd like the same kind of chili! (:

I hated scarey movies as a kid - I'd have to sleep with the light on if I saw one.

Bill, I remember the Thanksgiving Day Parade which kicked off the Christmas season many years ago. We had big Thanksgiving dinners at my grandparents with all the aunts and uncles, wonderful memories. One of the stories told was about how my brother would run around the block after polishing off one plate of dinner so he could have another.

Hallie Mae

Oh yea, Hallie Mae, those Thanksgivind Day parades were just great and still are.
Just imagine. If you ladies had worked in the Pittsburgh 5 and dimes, when you were young. I may have seen you when I walked through them.

Bill H

November is... Crisp, clean and cool A time of falling leaves Yellow red and gold How good they feel Crunching under my feet! Sometimes An Indian Summer day Gives me a smile. A lonely rose beckons Marigolds and 'mums Stand proundly tall Before the first frost. Days are short Night comes soon Fog, drizzle, rain. A chill wind nips my nose Bright windows of my house Welcome me. Warm holiday smells Steal into every room. Many friends from many places Share our holidays. November is:... I wrote this 25 years ago ...we are going into November, the fall colors of the trees just in my city neighborhood are spectacular this year... it seems a very colorful time everywhere...colkot

Babi!

What a memory you brought to me searching under all the cushions for change to come up with the few pennies more needed for the Sat. matinee! Do you remember looking under the edge of the linoleum (area rug not glued down wall to wall stuff) and finding nothing but Hairpins? And somtimes a safety pin, but not one loose coin that had gotten swished under there? Oh well! Time to find the pop bottle and get 2 cents for the return!

Marge

If you had a buffalo nickel, you could get in to the Children's Matinee, many years ago! Then you could see two full-lenth westerns, one chapter of a sc-fi serial,(Buck Rogers) three cartoons, and a newsreel. No wonder we were bleary-eyed when we came out of there!

Lorrie

I flew in to Cleveland, OH today, and the colors of the landscape I saw as we flew along were absolutely breathtaking. I'll ahve to admit, though, that I was thankful I live in the South when it was sleeting when my boss picked me up at the airport, and when my other boss returned me there this afternoon, it was snowing!

Ruth Ann

Today it was Snowing/Sleeting in Cleveland, OH. it is unheard of and I did not see it on the News (So much for the Weather men) but I do Know that You do Not lie so I will believe You.

Hi, Ginger, since we had to take the later plane out because of the length of the meeting, my boss also drove me down to see the Lake. With the gray day and strong wind, that water certainly looked choppy. Brrrrrrr. I don't think there was going to be an accumulation, but certainly that's what was happening both midmorning and late afternoon.

But I shouldn't complain about their weather, should I - those nice folks pay my salary and kindly let me stay here in Nashville where I've lived most of my life.

Ruth Ann

Colkot, welcome to the discussion.
Thank you for the post "November....Chicago style." I enjoyed reading the post. Were you a writer?
Speaking of finding coins that spend. I remember when it was customery for men's trousers to have cuffs on the pants legs. One time I found a coin in one of the cuffs. I'm still bewildered as to how it got there.

Bill H

I still miss Woolworth's. It has been along time since $1.00 could buy enough for more than one gift. The Dollar Stores can't do it because $1.00 only buys 1 item and that doesn't include the sales tax.

One memory I have of finding money dates back to when bacon grease was saved in a can on the stove. I was in a hurry for it to get filled so I added a little water to it. I took it to the store and got ten cents and 2 red tokens for it. I still have one of these tokens.

"…when bacon grease was saved in a can on the stove."
Louise, we used to call that and other fat rendering "lard" and then lard would be used for making other stuff. This was before we knew about cholesterol. It's a wonder were all still alive!! But the bacon grease made eggs and bacon taste so good.

Bill H

Billh my grandmother always had that drippings can on the stove and occasionally she would heat it on the stove, add cubes of stale bread till they were really brown then strain the hot lard through a fine sieve or kitchen cheese cloth and when it got cold and hardened a bit it was pure white and lovely to cook with. She was a great cook and always made her apple pie crust with the bacon drippings and boy that was a good pie. Yeah, we had a lot of fat in our diet as children at Tahoe and it made us grown strong and healthy and no child was ever fat in our house. Not until we got old then a couple of sisters and I did overdo it but my two brothers and one sis are slim jims. I have to perpetually diet and workout now that I have started or I will start gaining again.fr

I remember my grandmother saving the grease and having me bring it to the grocery store during WWII. It was one of the "war effort" economies practiced. I think you got "points" for it.

We did have a sprinkling of snow here yesterday, nothing stuck but it was an early surprise!

Hallie Mae

Drippings,

We always had a soup can at the back of the stove (wood burning) and poured excess or left over drippings into it: Bacon, Hamburger, Pork Chops. Whenever we needed a little grease to cook Eggs or whatever in, just dipped into the can. Grandmother used the drippings to make her Pie Crusts. Lots of things we did back when that we are told, today, will kill us dead in a hurry. Used to leave Butter (Margarine) out; leave the Thanksgiving Turkey out; left things in a pan overnight on occasion and ate the things the next day. As a Kid I ate more than one thing that dropped on the floor simply because I wouldn't get a replacement for the item (ice cream, candy, etc.)

Tiger Tom

During WW2, I had 17 weeks of armored/infantry training at Ft. Knox Ky. I took my turn on KP detail the same as all the rest in the training company, and one KP has stayed with me all these many years.
It was a very hot and humid day in Kentucky and, of course, there was no air conditioning then. I was on the pots and pans detail this time--nasty piece of business because it included cleaning the grease out of the sink trap as well. However, I had a good view of all that was going on in the kitchen. Well, you know, I saw one of the cooks standing over a large vat of potatoes that he was mashing manually with a huge potatoe masher. He was preparing these mashed potatoes for the noon meal. Sweat was DRIPPING from his face and arms into the mashed potatoes. Needless to say, I passed on the potatoes for that meal. I suppose this happened on other days as well, but if I didn't see it I didn't care.

Bill H

Harold,

As a Teen I worked as a Third Cook (dishwasher) on a railrod Dining Car. What is saw there put me off. Unfortunately, I had to take my meals in the Diner while travelling on the Train. I avoided some things.

Tiger Tom

I didn't know you got credit during WWII for bacon drippings! I suppose my mother kept hers too...if she could afford the bacon in the first place.

Actually it is a wonder any of us are here! We all did everything wrong! Even if the food was put in the ice box how cold was that when ice had melted to a sliver? We rode bikes with no helmets, cars with no seatbelts, ran barefoot through whatever weed got in our way and usually sampled anything that grew on a bush or a tree!

Brrr you guys! It was 60 in Chicago today when I caught the Debbie Reynolds show.

Marge

60 would be a heat wave for us up here, it's 45.

Bill, it must run in the family.. I've always liked to write and I still read voraciously...my oldest son is a journalist/columnist-rewrite man for the NY Daily News....his by-line is "Corky Siemaszko" He has been called "the poet of the tabloids" for his insightful commentaries which started around the infamous September 11... Heven't written a book though. At the Center I volunteer at there is a current creative writing memory book going on..there seems to be some interest in my former life as a child abroad.. so I have to do some homework for the course.!..The leaves are still colorful and gorgeous here, BUT I expect the rain to come and the leaves will be gone. It seems a pity that we are not allowed the oldfashioned smell of burning leaves these days... Progess? Colkot

Aw Yes those were the Good ole days and I do think we and the younger generation are being led astray today for commercial reasons as We are Still here but the Money people want us to change and buy there products. The bacon dripings oh yes but the Bacon to me just does Not seem as good as it did back then as they are growing the pigs so much different than we did.

We worked in our gardens and farms and that was our exercise that burned away all the fat that we needed to keep us going. I now eat high protien meals and am Not on a diet for it as it just what I like.

colkot, I still enjoy the burning leaves as some out here where I live still burn leaves and when I see it I always step out side for a whiff.

I don't know about ya'll, but I keep a pound size carton of lard in the fridge just for making pie crust dough. Can't beat the taste or the flakiness. Drippings are the best thing for adding flavor to butter beans. And cornbread. And wilted lettuce (not the iceberg kind). And boiled greens of all kinds. Yummers.

A while back I read an article about a big commercial pig farmer, and when he was asked if he ate pork, he said "I love pork. But I don't eat my own pork. I contract with a small farmer down the road who lets his pigs run out in a pasture. They taste better when they're raised like that."

That same thing is true with chicken. When a chicken is allowed to hunt and peck outside of a cage, it tastes like the chicken you remember when you were a kid. The eggs from such chickens do, too.

Howzat

I think the commercial feeds are designed to produce heavier,less fat chickens, pigs,etc. Being sold by the pound, a heavier animal is more profitable. And in these days when every one has been warned off fat, the lean meat is what people look for. But there is no question the best flavor came with the fat. Compare any product with its 'no fat' version, and the difference is unmistakable. ..Babi

In the 50s I worked for a company that produced chicken feed. There were all kinds of feeds with complicated formulas - I remember "butilated hydroxyanisole" (sp?) as one of the ingredients, heaven only knows what's in them now.

Tiger Tom, yes, I remember the turkey sitting out there all day while everyone picked at it. As for eating something that dropped on the floor - we used to "kiss it up to God" and eat it. (: I remember my grandmother saying you'll eat a peck of dirt before you die.

Hallie Mae

Annie3, welcome to the discussion. Although it is 61 right now in Pittsburgh, it was in the forties and fifties most of this week.

Hozat, Our super market sells eggs from chickens that are allowed to run lose. Those eggs are more expensive but they do taste better. I'm not sure but I think those same chickens are fed from anti-biotic free feed. Bill H

Daylight Savings Time Will End
Today brings to a close our journey through the Fall Colors discussion. The many interesting post you folks brought here made this topic a most enjoyable journey and brought back some of the fond memories of our youth. Thank you!
Now don't forget to turn your clocks back before going to bed tonight, or, if you wish, you can stay up till 2: AM and then do it, however, I think I'll take care of that annual fall chore before retiring )
Tomorrow, Nellie will start another timely subject in Curious Minds. Nellie, I took a little peek and I'm sure everybody will like this one.
Folks, I leave you with this
Fall Melody
Thank you again for your participation.

Bill H

Turning the clocks back is much more of a chore then putting them orward.

I don't know what the store did with my can of fat. I was ten years old and needed the money. I wan't old enough to baby sit yet. But I remember an aunt of mine making toll house cookies using the bacon grease.

I have a clock in the house that is already properly set for the Fall -- and has been all summer!

Robby

Thank You Bill for that website! It was absolutely gorgeous! It was so nice meeting you and everyone on this Curious Minds discussion and am looking forward to Nellie's topic.

Marge

Now that it's fall and we've all got our clocks set on the proper time and the cool air of fall is upon us, it's time to COOK!

Nellie has a great new topic for the next two weeks of Curious Minds!

Folks, I forgot to tell you that before Nellie starts this new delicious subject, I invite you to also join me in "Classical Mysteries." We talk about all the old time detective stories and their authors. Look in on it and I think you will stay.

Bill H

Thanks Bill for the discussion and the Fall Melody. No, being a teenager, I did not gain weight from the brownies.

Now, cooking. My husband does it but I do the baking. When I retired, he was afraid I would want the kitchen back, but I very graciously let him keep it. He also does the dishes but once a week I will do that just so I can get the stove clean. But he is a keeper and I've had him 51 years now.

He does the cooking and washes the dishes?!! Oh fortunate one! Don't give anybody your address, O'Sharny; they'll come around looking for that treasure. lol...Babi

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion

COOKING: COOKBOOKS, FOOD and RECIPES

Food and the preparation of it for pleasurable consumption is an ever fascinating topic. We all have our well-worn copies of much used cookbooks that are pulled from the shelf almost every day. We have our family heirloom recipes: some for everyday use and some for those special occasions. We all have stories of those attempts at cooking that went awry. We have our favorite foods, and our most disliked foods.
Let's discuss COOKING!
LINKS FOR PERUSAL

Home cooking article

Food Reference
Foodstyles
A Chef's Help

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Nellie Vrolyk

Hello everyone!

I'd like to welcome you to our discussion on cooking and cookbooks. Anything you want to say on the subject is fine. When was the first time you cooked or baked something on your own? Do you have a recipe that has been in the family for generations? What is your comfort food? Did you ever make something that turned out to be a total disaster? What is your favourite cookbook?

Hello O'Sharny! Your husband sure does sound like a keeper; it's nice to have one who does the cooking.

Honestly, I pretty much stopped baking from scratch once the mixes became really good. Why measure flour, baking powder, salt, etc., when someone has already done it for you? I don't use things like hamburger helper; I figure I can 'help' my own hamburger, thanks just the same.

Mostly I use my cookbooks now for ideas. When you have chicken or ground beef as often we do, you begin to look for something different. Some of my cookbooks are so old they are falling apart. The newest is a gift, Diabetic Desserts, given to my daughter by a friend after she was diagnosed as diabetic. I haven't used it much, as most of the recipes are rather complicated and time-consuming. By today's standards, anyway. ..Babi

Nellie,

Interesting subject. I used to bake a bit but since I have become Diabetic those things are a NO-NO.

While in California, I watched the Food Channel (Network? Whatever) cannot get it here. Anyway, I probably wouldn't eat 95 percent of what they make but I love watching them prepare the meals.

Tiger Tom

I try for different but simple. Unfortunately, most of the magazine and newspaper recipes call for ingredients we don't keep on hand, often ingredients just for that one recipe. If we don't like it, then what?

Anyway, I go back to some very old 4-H cookbooks I had. I cooked a lot because my mother was the rare one who worked outside of the house, although right next door. Between my mother, necessity and 4-H, I learned a lot. Some of those recipes are still favorites, and they often take well to low salt and low fat adjustments, too. Does anyone remember "Let's Cook with Gail?"

N

I was about 8 years old when I made my first cake. Believe it or not, my mother let me loose in the kitchen with a recipe. She was reading in the living room and would holler answers to any questions I had. When I asked her where the cloves were, she didn't mention that we had ground cloves and whole cloves, guess which ones I used? My father, bless his heart, ate my cake while picking whole cloves out of it.

Hallie Mae

Hallie what a good father. I was eight also when I was introduced to the kitchen and cooking. First thing I made was a cake. My grandmother stood with me and directed me how to do what I read from ingredients and directions in the cookbook recipe. It turned out very good, a yellow loaf cake with powder sugar frosting.I made that same cake all my life till I could do it in my sleep I think.

I became a good cook and my mother and grandmothers said it was because I had a high sense of smell . This does help in the kitchen as it even lets you know when things are done, believe me. I could be out in another part of the house and smell the cake or whatever, at a certain point was finished. It is a good thing too that I learned to cook on wood and coal stoves. It was 1947 when hubby and I bought our first little bungalow home. It had a tiny galley kitchen and I cooked on gas there. A blessing to me. Except the oven I thought was not as good as my wood and coal stoves. I never cooked as well until years later when I got a very good electric oven.

I never used mixes or boxed and packaged meals when I raised the family. We had a huge freezer which held our half beef, half lamb and half pork. Poultry and fish too mostly from my father. I also kept huge supply of vegetables frozen. I didnt use much other frozen prepared food . I do remember that it was about 1956 or so when we finally tried frozen dinners but only on the nites my husband was not home for dinner. They were really atrocious but kids thought they were "fun" though not really good.

As the family dwindled down to just me I changed and ate the easiest stuff I could including frozen dinners and fast food. When I got too too fat last year I tried to change but until my MD called me on it and said I was obese I didnt change. Then I joined a health club.

Now I have lost more than one dress size and I cook every meal. I buy only fresh food, nothing in packages or canned excepted canned fish. Frozen fish and vegetables are ok along with plenty of fresh veggies and some fresh fruit. No bread until I found a lo carb type the bakeries are now baking. No rice, no pasta, no potatoes. But I eat well and am gradually losing. I make a lot of stir frys with chicken and veggies. And I make a good cabbage soup that is lo carb and is a great lunch especially with the addition of some meat or cheese for protein.faith

I was never in the kitchen growing up. Nope, wasn't even expected to dry a dish! There might have been two reasons for this. I was the baby of the family and was spoiled OR my mother found it easier after all those years of child raising to just do herself! But one day in My preteen years I asked permission to bake a peach pie. I was given directions verbally and turned loose in the kitchen ON MY OWN. It took hours but hey!, I had a pretty good looking pie. When dessert time came for Mom, Dad and I, the pie was served. Nobody said a word just chewed the pie even though it didn't seem quite done. Alas, a review of the ingredients found I had used two tbls. of SUGAR and 1 cup of FLOUR! I could have baked it for days and it STILL would have been doughy!

Marge

Well I never learned to cook, I follow simple recipe's now though. My job growing up was to take the younger siblings outside for a walk while my Mom cooked and baked. What I like to do is when I go to yard sales or thrift stores I like to look for those old church cookbooks and then I read them. They usually have interesting tidbits and hints in and sometimes stories about the people that put the books together. So it's sort of like cooking LOL.

I have quite a collection of recipe books (both commercial, handmade, and from charitable organizations). They're fun to read and, sometimes, I can get an idea from a recipe that I can utilize when I'm "throwing together" some food for dinner.

My experience with cooking began when I was 12. During the summertimes, my grandma went to live with mother's sister in Pennsylvania. So, I kept my 3-year old brother daily while Mother and Daddy worked.

I was expected to have dinner cooked, the table set, and food ready to dish up as soon as they arrived (about 4:55 pm daily). So, often I got my instructions from a recipe lady who gave out recipes on the radio at 10:30 each morning. Then, while my brother was taking his afternoon nap, I would do the cooking. I still have some of those recipes and utilize them on occasion.

Also, Mother gave me some good advice on the phone. Like how to cook green beans: Well, Ruth Ann, you break the beans carefully - don't leave strings on them, but don't throw away long end pieces, either - we don't have money to burn, you know. Now, put the broken pieces in the stewer with the long handle. The beans should be 1 inch above the brads for the handle. Now, wash them well, drain the water off, add additional water to almost, but not quite cover the beans, add 1 of the roundish tablespoons of salt, two tablespoons of drippings from the bacon fat drippings jar. Chop up an onion small enough that your fingers will nearly close around it when you hold it in your hand. Now, add the onion. Bring it to a boil, then cut the heat down to the next to last notch before LOW, put a lid on it, and check for doneness after awhile. When the beans are nearly done, if there's too much water still in the pan, turn up the heat and watch the pan carefully so the water will evaporate, but don't let the beans burn!

Those beans were delicious and to this day, I cook a lot like Mother taught me on the phone.

Ruth Ann

That is one of the reasons I am going to the Virginia gathering to get some of those Green beans with corn bread and Now you have me chompin at the bit to go. Smile.

Hello all! Fabulous posts from all of you

My first experience with cooking came at a fairly young age -around the age of five or six, I think -when I was allowed to mash the potatoes for what is called 'stamppot' in dutch -it roughly translates into 'mashed pot' and is essentially potatoes, vegetable and cooked meat of some kind all mashed together. The results taste a lot better than it sounds.

Some of my best liked 'stamppot' combinations are: spinach, potatoes, and meatballs; potatoes, raw lettuce, and salt pork; potatoes,carrots, onions, and beef brisket; and potatoes, red beets, and bacon.

I'll be back tomorrow...

What a responsible 12 yr. old you were! Babysitting AND cooking! I was drooling by the time I finished you telling how you cooked the greenbeans. I've come a long way from my first year of marriage when I burned water. I now cook the green beans until they are just done. My Mother cooked the livin' daylights out of them, they were barely green anymore but they sure tasted good.

Nellie, never heard of stamp pot... Was the meat and all mashed together like potatoes?

Marge

Nellis, all these years and I never even heard of stamppot. I'll take your word for it that is good. I've got a 'Pennsylvania Dutch' cookbook; I'll have to see if there is anything in there that resembles a mashed combo.

I liked to look for regional cookbooks when I traveled, but as someone else said, I avoid things with exotic ingredients I would probably never use again. And Chinese. Somehow, I just can't see myself chopping everything into small pieces. The take-out Chinese is good, inexpensive, and EASY. ...Babi

How could anyone eat that stuff Colkot

Ruth Ann, what a great story. I must admit I still burn things but its the pot, not me. Actually, we had cooking classes in 7th and 8th grades and I still have my recipe box and a few of the recipes from the classes.

The cookbooks that I have collected thru the years were the Pillsbury Bakeoff books. Have always enjoyed baking and to this day, I bake cookies for my husband every two weeks. Also bran muffins for myself and just started adding molasses to them. Ummm good.

Recently, I went to a seminar on preparing to sell your home and one of the things they gave us was a list of items that will bring the most money at an estate sale. Cookbooks were on the list! So hang on to yours.

Colkot, re:How could anyone eat that stuff which foods do you mean?

Salmon? Green beans? devil's food cupcakes?

Ah Cookbooks and cooking ...Even when I am reading something from the BEST SELLER LIST I also keep a cookbook nearby. Right now I am locating my favorite cookie recipes. It is so hard to choose from the hundreds I have made over the years.

My mother was a "SUTHIN'Cook" and her green beans when done were sort of dull green beige. Cabbage cooked all day was pinkish beige...her cornbread was the best and she was skilled at doing "something" with the rabbits, turtles, froglegs,catfish my hunting brother brought home. To this day I cant duplicate her pot roast and I certainly have tried. Oh I do a good job and it is devoured but I long for the taste of Momma's.

At Christmas she made lots of cookies and I make some of them. My favorite for years was a rolled sugar cookie with nutmeg in it that was superb. I dont make it often any more preferring shaped or molded cookies.

In many ways I am a better cook than my mother. She FRIED pork chops when there was enough fat in them to fry a batch of them. She used a lot of bacon fat to season food and kept it in (the bacon fat) a large tin container. Must say her peanut butter cookies made with bacon fat were wonderful tasting.When I was a teenager I learned to cook differently because taking a cooking class was sort of the thing girls did then. I learned to cook cabbage quickly and loved it..pork chops without fat, etc. In fact my mother offered to let me cook and she would do the dishes. SInce I LOVED trying new things it became a regular routine. Although she said had the worst part of the deal since I couldnt boil water without using all the pots in the house.

She still made my father's favorite dishes, oxtail soup,pigs feet and sauerkraut, oyster stew, sweet breads and brains. The rest of us preferred my new talent. Nothing gives me greater pleasure than cooking for my family. On the 9th of November they will gather here for bean soup ( bone left over from last Sunday's family dinner) cabbage, cornbread, fruit salad and whatever I make for dessert ..thinking of lemon pie...

By the way I have always found reading cookbooks adventurous. anna

Ah, Anna, if I lived nearby I'd invite myself to dinner at your house!

I took some things by a new thrift shop today, and looked over the books while I was there. I found a small, about 6"square cookbook, looked brand new and beautifully illustrated, of Five Brothers recipes. Five Brothers puts out a line of pasta products. Already I am planning to try the Asparagus Frittata and the Tortellini Rose'. This is the first cookbook I've bought in at least 15 years (not counting the one the church put out). Made my day. ...Babi

Your post got me so excited! Not just the green beans that you too remembered being cooked to death but...the mention of nutmeg in sugar cookies! I ALWAYS put nutmeg in my sugar cookies and most people comment that they have never heard of such a thing. But that bit of nutmeg flavor has sure converted a lot of folks on their opinion of the sugar cookie. My daughter-in-law is MUCH better at baking that me, but struggled with sugar cookies. At Christmas time I remembered to mention the nutmeg to her. Her husband exclaimed..."Now that's Christmas!" So much from one little spice, unbelievable isn't it?

Hello all, I'm having fun reading all your posts... and getting hungry too.

Camper, depending on how much meat was available, it was either cut up and mashed in with the potatoes and vegetables -usually when there was too little meat to share around. I remember that my mother would often cook everything in one pot and then mash it all together afterward.

BaBi, I don't know if the Pennsylvania Dutch would have dishes like that because 'stamppot' is more a Netherlands type dish, and I believe that the Pennsylvania Dutch are of German descent.

I indulged in a favorite dish for lunch yesterday: bread dipped in meat juices -we call it jus and it is so flavorful. A real comfort food for me because I've been enjoying it since I was a small child.

Have you seen the commercial of a cook and a hotpad? They are arguing as she says jus and he says juice. Don't remember what they are advertising but it sure is cute.

Nutmeg is a wonderful spice. I bought a pumpkin pie at the store the other day, knowing it would never be as good as mine (that is well earned conceit) and it had too much nutmeg in it. According to my eleven year old granddaughter who argued with her friends, my pumpkin pie is the best! I put some molasses in it and umm, umm, is that ever good. Try it.

I have a very old recipe book written by the original Duncan Heinz who traveled sampling the specialties of the various inns and B&Bs where he stayed, then wheedled the chefs out of their recipes.

I cook a spaghetti sauce based on a recipe in his book and although I've modified it to remove the stick of butter (gotta take care of the old heart, ya know!), I use all the other ingredients, which include 4 crumbled sage leaves, nutmeg, and the usual garlic, parsley, etc. Also, it adds carrots, celery and onions to the sauce (which originally cooked on the stove over slow heat all day). I began using that recipe to enice my growing family to consume more vegetables. Now it's a family favorite.

Ruth Ann

Just spent the evening baking gingersnap cookies...my recipe calls for vinegar and I add extra ginger.......it is a wonderful recipe I have made for 45 years.

Too much nutmeg is too much but just the right amount is wonderful.......mother always used real butter in these cookies as well. and we only made them at Christmas. I have her cookie cutters ...a big santa, reindeer, bell, star, angel and snowman. They are sprinkled with sugar just before baking. The butter makes them sort of separate into layers ( she chilled them overnight before rolling them out) Just talking about them makes me want to make some..I may just do one recipe and cut the santas out for the grandchildren.

If any of you ever come to Virginia ..Norfolk, Wlliamsburg, etc I will invite you for dinner...I enjoy watching people enjoying a good meal......had pot roast for dinner tonight and it was great..AND I used a piece of bread and poured gravy over it for dessert LOL ..anna

I like each of the foods mentioned.. (with the exception of the chocolate cupcakes) HOWEVER.. it's what they did with them that bothers me!. I like my salmon cooked with a sprinkling of dill,pepper and lemon on the side. I like my beans.. again,preferably from my garden, cooked,steamed..with whatever seasonings I decide to have with them. Nothing wrong with a plain potato either, with dill, spread/butter. Sweet potatoes, with garlic,salt,pepper, spread/ butter.(no marshmallows syrup or pecans) Yes, I like food, good well seasoned food, properly cooked without all the frills and wine in them. I even like peanut butter....but NOT with jelly. My pet hates are cilantro, celery, and cooked cheese. Colkot

I loved the the way you cook salmon! Dill and lemon with fish is a MUST in my opinion. Have you ever tried sweet potato with cinnamon and butter? My first experience with that was at a resturaunt. Now when I bake them that is the way they go!

I've always been given to understand that nutmeg was a spice favored by Scandinavians. What do you think? I like it: could it be because I'm Swede?

Nellie, we stretched meat by chopping into other foods: we just didn't mash it. More likely it went into soups because I never saw a casserole when I was growing up! My Dad didn't like foods mixed together so I never ate spaghetti or chili or that sort of thing until I was grown. Talk about a meat and potatoes man!

I can vouch for Annafair's cooking. She makes the best sugar roasted pecans, that some of us here in Books were priviledged to eat at last year's get-together in DC.

Hello again

I've enjoyed all your posts again!

O'Sharney, we used to have one of those little nutmeg graters when I was a child and I loved that aroma of nutmeg when mom grated it into the hamburger she was preparing for meatballs.

Camper, the meat was more stirred in after the potatoes and vegetables were mashed together, and only certain vegetables were used in a stamppot. All vegetables from the cruciform family of vegetables were used, such as green cabbage, red cabbage, kale, and so on; and spinach, sliced up red beets, carrots and onions were also used. But never peas or beans. But brown beans were used.

Mom told me that she was feeding me brown beans cooked and mashed through a sieve mixed with applesauce when I was three months old. I still have a liking for that combination of food.

Have a nice weekend all and I'll be reading you all later!

I wonder how many people ever tasted red TOMATO jam, perhaps never even heard of it because every time I mention this, I get blank stares. TOMATO JAM? No, you can't make jam out of a vegetable I am told. Well my grand'mother and my mother made it and I make it every year. Its something that you never see in grocery stores. When the new tomatoes arrive in late August early September at the farmer's market, I make TOMATO jam. The recipe is quite simple, tomatoes, sugar and cloves boiled down and stirred while cooking to prevent sticking to the bottom. It's the cloves that give it this unique taste, just tangy enough.

Eloïse

Eloise, my Alabama grandma used to make it each year, along with watermelon rind preserves, etc. She believed in waste not want not - and the food was delicious, too.

Ruth Ann

OH. often I have made TOMATO JAM, it is good. Some people do not know what they are missing. Now I haven't found a decent Water melon rind jam. Babs

My Nana made Tomato Jam and it was delicious. She used the ripe tomatoes, sugar, spices and in some batchs she added onion and hot pepper for a different taste and my husband loved her Hot tomato jam which was sweet, spicy and hot.. She also used pectin so that she could keep the fruit looking beautiful and not have to boil it down like you do for jelly. Actually Tomatoes are part of the plant world called berries growing on a vine. faith

My aunt had a small jam and jelly kitchen in the Rio Grande Valley, where her husband managed citrus groves. She sold her products commercially, most of them appearing in seasonal gift baskets. Of course there was marmalade, but she also made cactus pear preserve and jalapeno pepper jelly. They were delicious, and the pepper jelly was especially good with meats like ham or lamb. She gave me her recipe for a Pear Honey Preserve, which I made in small quantities for my family. It's still in my recipe box, but I haven't made it in years now. If anyone wants it, speak up. :>) ...Babi

I have tasted tomato jam, as well as, watermelon rind pickels, but it was along time ago. My father used to put sugar on his tomatoes when he ate them. Hasn't there been a debate throughout the years as to whether tomatoes were fruit or vegetables? It seems that I have heard that they are actuall berries, but I could be wrong.

Tomato Jam - My granny made raspberry jam using tomatos and raspberry essence. I think I still have the recipe here. It was delicious and hard to tell from the real thing! Good way to use up a glut of tomatos from the garden! Called it mock raspberry jam - a carry over from rationing in WW2. I have made it as a young hard up mum. I will phone mum she has Grannys hand written recipe book. I will publish the recipe here and some of you may like to use up those tomatos.

A few years ago, every one had zucchini in their gardens and gladly gave them away. What to do with them? I started a chapter in my cookbook with recipes found mostly in the newspaper. I have a loose leaf notebook and it is filled with recipes I found here and there or those given to me by friends. Have I used them all? No. But I do look at them once in awhile.

Mock Raspberry Jam

4lb of ripe tomatos

2 lbs apples - minced - I would put mine in the food processor

4 pounds of sugar

1 dspn vinegar

quarter of a bottle raspberry essence (taste when you have added it and add more if needed. I think the bottles were a little bigger when this recipe was compiled)

Pour boiling water over the tomatos and then skin and put into preserving pan. Boil to a pulp then add apples and vinegar. Boil for half an hour and then add sugar. Boil gently until the jam sets. When the jam is cool add the raspberry essence and stir in well. Bottle.

Honestly think that a lot of what we really like is a throwback to our younger days...I have to make stuff for a British Home Fete which is on Saturday.( I cannot produce my fabulous sugar-free cheesecake.. which needs to be kept cold. If anyone is a diabetic & needs the recipe can post it) Mince pies..individual size... Maids of honor..a kind of almond flavored cupcake... Jam Tarts.. Scones and so on. Very British!! (looking in all the cookbooks) My mother had a light hand with pastry and her Apple Strudel was to die for...( she was from Mittel Europe) I've just made a batch of Pumpkin/Sweet Potato Soup.. flavored with Curry Powder.And yes, I certainly know about Red Tomato Jam except I'd call it Chutney.. similar to Mango chutney.. Good stuff colkot

When I phoned Mum today to get the jam recipe she said I can have Granny's old recipe book. I am delighted. Its falling to bits so I intend to buy a plastic envelope folder and put the recipes there in sequence. The recipes are 80 years old. Mum thinks the book which was the staple of Grannys repetoire of recipes was an American publication. The front page is missing but Mum thinks its The Vimax Recipe Book. Granny also had hand written cards inserted in the book.My boys both make Granny's fruit cake its easy and really moist. Matthew just phoned Mum a few weeks ago to get the recipe again as he had lost it moving.

Each Thanksgiving I get a call from my son who lives in England. I KNOW that he hasn't forgotten the recipes, but it gives us both a laugh for him to send a panic phone call my way saying, "Mom, I'm in the grocery - now how much celery do I get and how exactly do you make your cornbread dressing again?" He has lived in the UK about 20 years, and this literally has become a tradition with us.

He always cooks a big Thanksgiving dinner for all his friends with our family favorites. Normally he serves about 20 friends. And, they love it.

Ruth Ann

When my parents were living in Colombo, Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) they had a Tamil cook named Thomas (pronounced Tow-MAAS). Mother had a hard time enforcing her rule to scrub all veggies thoroughly, so she spent a lot of time in the kitchen anyway. She did teach Thomas to make cornbread. And to save bacon grease for butter beans. When they left, Thomas asked for a written reference, which Mother gladly gave, since Thomas was a "gem" (he was always impecably dressed, Indian style, but he never wore shoes of any kind). He asked her to remember to include the fact that he knew how to cook cornbread.

I always put sugar and salt on fresh tomatoes, and I always add sugar to any sauce recipe that has tomatoes in it. My mother did and her mother did.

I have more than 100 cookbooks. I love to read cookbooks. I even have an entire cookbook for Rhubarb, put together by a group of folks in Silverton, Colorado, a town high in the Rocky Mtns.

Howzat

Howzat - Have you tried rhubarb and apple pie?

Carolyn

No. Rhubarb is a cold weather plant. It doesn't grow in Texas, except up in the the Panhandle (peonies will grow there, too), and those selfish folks don't ship any to Dallas. I suppose that new place, "Central Market" that has all that exotic stuff might stock it, but I don't go there--it's too big.

Howzat

Besides my mother there were a slew of aunts whose cooking was edible,delicious and often not seen anymore. One aunt always made a butterscotch pie whenever I was there...and no recipe has ever duplicated that pie. She also made pear preserves from her canned pears that were the best ever. I often wished she had lived long enough to share some of the recipes with me.

Another aunt made rhubarb pie and just plain cooked rhubarb which I loved when I visited. My mother didnt make tomato jam but this aunt did..and home made saurkraut stuffed in green peppers which were kept in a stoneware pot in a brine...I dont know what they were called but I loved them ..she also made headcheese which I didnt like and every year they would drive way into the country to collect wild grapes for jam..the blackberries she canned and come Christmas they would bring 6 qt jars of them and mother would make the best blackberry cobblers.

I made home made baked egg custard last night ..all the talk about nutmeg made me hungry for that...anna

Hello all! My mouth was watering as I read all your yummy posts.

Louise, I also like to eat tomato with sugar. One of my favorite desserts is a diced fresh tomato sprinkled lightly with sugar. Yum.

Thanksgiving is coming up at the end of this month. Do you all have any special recipes for the ocassion?

We used to walk for miles to pick blackberries often accompanied by our eccentric cats who drove us mad forever getting tangled in the blackberry bushes!

We would come home and make blackberry and apple pie and jars of jam for the pantry. Such happy childhood memories.

Nellie I can remember meeting some Canadian cousins visiting my grandparents. As a kid I was horrified to see them sprinkle sugar on their tomatos!

a whole book filled with rhubarb recipe's, I would be in heaven. How fortunate you are.

I'm a "salt on" person with tomatoes, cucumbers, watermelon, canteloupe...

And I absolutely BEGGED for my mother to give me the "core" of the cabbage when she grated it for slaw. Of course, I salted that, too!

Ruth Ann

Me, too, Ruth. Salt on the grapefruit, too. I never heard before of anyone putting sugar on tomatoes, but I did learn..to my surprise... that Canadians put vinegar on their french fies.

My mother's Christmas specialty was a date nut log confection. When I had a home of my own, a made it for a while. It is so-o-o-o rich, tho', I have not made it for many years.

My ex-husband was from up-state New York, so I learned about preparing rhubarb and rutabagas after we were married. Not together, of course! I learned the Yankees liked rutabagas and potatoes mashed together. Really not bad at all. I much preferred rutabagas to turnips. ..BAbi

I Prefer Rutabagus cooked with carrots and mashes, a pinch of sugar, salt and pepper and butter. Now that is good.

I am so happy to have you back on S/N and especially in Books.

Your Rutabagus cooked with carrots and mashes, a pinch of sugar, salt and pepper and butter sounds so Good as I have Never had them that way as Mom always cook them separate and I like both that way but your way sounds better, Humm.

A friend at church introduced me to cabbage and rutabagas cooked together - when I get a yen for rutabagas, I always fix that combination of veggies.

Ruth Ann

We always eat our sliced tomatoes with a sprinkling of sugar. Nothing finer in the summer. When I was growing up in Wisconsin, we ate our muskmelon and watermelon with salt. My father-in-law, however, put pepper on his muskmelon.

We always had several vegetables and fruits at our meals when I was growing up, usually served simply because time was always short. I still like my vegetables served with just a bit of butter and lemon and pepper. No fancy cheese sauces.

However, I have an old Farm Journal vegetable cookbook that has some wonderful recipes. When a vegetable gets too plentiful, then I pull that out and try something a little more complicated. Like stuffed zucchini. Rutabaga is always served in stew or soup, not something we eat plain.

A good blackberry cobbler recipe would be welcome - we have a freezer full of them. They are the taste of summer to me.

N

I like Extra Sharp cheese in a macroni dish with whole milk added and real butter baked at 350 till it bubbles and has a nice golden brown look at the top, some times I add hamburger to it. To me it is So special.

I have Never put sugar or honey on tomatoes But Hey I am game and will probaby like it, Honey is my first choice tho.

GINGER; Thank you for the warm welcome. After all aren't we sister of SN.It sure is a small world,. I have never put salt on watermelon, but I have an canteloupe.I feel summer goes away far to fast. as I love all the berries,melons etc.

RUTH ANN: I most certainly will try the cabbage and rutabagus, I love both of those.

I did make some macaroni and cheese yesterday, cannot remember when I last had it, it hit the spot. I wonder where I can can get berries for cobblers.THis is such a nice folder, glad I subscribed. Babs

I always salt and pepper cantelope--heavy on the pepper. Yummers. And, rutabagas, cooked done, mashed with butter, oh me, don't throw me in the briar patch. I can easily think of a table laden with only veggies as a supreme treat, never mind the meats. I have always cooked fresh green beans in water and butter (salt and pepper, also) for an hour or so, turning up the heat at the last to reduce the liquid (which is so good to sop your bread in). I don't worry about the color.

Howzat

All this talk about rhubarb -- mmm, love it. My mother's family grew up in Central and Northern Wisconsin and they always called it "pie plant."

Ruth Ann and Babi, when I was growing up my family always put salt on watermelon and cantelope. My aunt would always say "it brings out the flavor." My uncle would salt his grapefruit while the rest of us used sugar. We thought he was nuts. Now I don't add anything, to any for those.

Howzat, I'm with you -- a table full of vegetables is a real treat.

My Favorite recipe book.

I bought my favorite recipe book in 1974.

It is called Perfect Cooking by Marguerite Patten.

It has blue print recipes showing step by step methods of cooking for such things as pastry making etc.

It has at the back of the book whole menus for luncheons or dinner parties together with colored illustrations and blue prints for each dish. It is a big book and covers everything I ever wanted to know about cooking. I have used it so much it is falling apart! It covers preserving, jam making, bread making, pickles in fact anything you would ever need to know about cooking from scratch.

My other simple cook book is the NZ housewives almanac. LOL Its the Edmonds Cookery book and generations of New Zealand women and men have used it to learn to cook basic recipes. The compilers are a baking powder manufacturing company they also now make custard powder, baking soda and other like products. I think the first edition was published almost 100 years ago. I have the newest edition as my other one was stolen by one of the kids when they left home to go flatting.Both of my sons bought this book for themselves when they went into their own homes. My eldest son is a very competent cook and my youngest son is adequate.

Carolyn

I can vouch for the sanity of the uncle who salted his grapefruit. It actually cuts the acidity, to my taste, whereas the sweet sugar just emphasizes it. (To each his own.)

Pepper has come up frequently. Plain old black pepper. I had a brother-in-law who covered his morning eggs with a layer of pepper, literally. All you could see of the eggs was the edges.

I like all types of squash, cabbage, most beans, peas & lentils. I think I am going to have to buy 'a' rutabaga and try one of the combinations. (A number of vegs I have to buy for one; my daughter doesn't care for the stronger flavored types.) ..Babi

The most tasty pepper is freshly ground black pepper and the black coating of the pepper is actually where you get the real taste. Today you can buy the coarsely ground black pepper which is not refined in any way and has the real fresh pepper taste or you can buy the pepper already packaged in a grinder at the supermarket. Its designed to be a container for the pepper and a grinder in one. You throw away the container after use. When the coating of the black pepper is removed you are left with just the heat of the pepper and no real taste. If you are on a salt free diet the natural black pepper is a great substitute for the taste boost we all miss when we have to give up salt.

CAROLYN,; stange to see some one mention the EDMUND recipe book, It is a favorite of mine. I can remember when Senior Edmunds died and I was a cousins house that day of the funeral, and cousin said,Poor man, and her daughter said, Oh, Mom don't worry he is sure to rise,. (which was a saying of theirs, Edmunds baking Powder made things sure to rise.)

Yes, I often glance at the other recipes, nice that they added items to the book that did not call for their products,. Both of my sons, have copied recipes from the book., Babs

After reading everyone's post I'm starving! Never mind I just finished eating.

I had never witnessed anyone putting sugar on sliced tomatoes until my first meal with future father-in-law. I still prefer salt on mine, however. But, if something seems missing in a dish that contains tomatoes, sauce or paste? I add a bit of sugar and it's perfect!

Anna, I can't remember when I've had a really good taste of custard pie with the nutmeg all over the top. Yum! My Mother was not a baker but she sure did justice with that. I gave up trying to duplicate my Moms pie after all the failures. Not only did it weep it cried buckets.

Do any of you have one kitchen gadget you feel you could not live without? I can think of a whole bunch but my fresh ground pepper grinder is an ABSOLUTE favorite.

Marge

Our pepper grinder is a favorite also. We cook without salt and try to avoid salt as much as possible. Pepper, garlic, lemon are all favorite seasoning.

We find that we cannot eat many convenience foods because of too much salt. So I would say the salt shaker is the least favorite item in our kitchen.

Another favotire item is a wire cheese slicer on a marble cutting "board."

n

My Kenwood food processor is the gadget I could not do without. I can rub butter into flour in that as I can't do it any more with my hands. Second comes the electric can opener ( my hands are so arthritic and clumsy) and thirdly my cheese slicer which enables me to cut very thin slices for me and thicker ones for the grands.

We grow most of our own herbs such as Coriander, Basil, Tarragon, Marjoram, Oregano, Parsley both curly and Italian, Thyme, Chives, Mint and a lime herb. The leaves flavor food with a lime flavor. Its like a miniature lime tree. It has thorns on the stem. Fresh herbs eliminate a lot of need for seasonings in salads etc.

Carolyn

nlhome, I find with fresh griund pepper, lemon or garlic you don't even miss the salt. I am not a cheese person so wouldn't know where to find the cutter. I own one though, just don't know where it is!

kiwi lady, I forgot the importance of the electric can opener. My hands are arthritic too and there is no way I could open anything with a manualone. Meals would sure be stark without it, as fresh is not an option if a LOT of peeling is involved. The processor can take care of the chopping, thank heaven. Now that I think about it, I would starve to death without a pair of scissors. I'd never be able to open a bab of anything.

I've already teased my husband it he goes before me, I will never taste a pickle, mayonaise, applesauce, etc. again...I couldn't get the lid off!

Marge

One of our supermarket chains has its own brand its called Signature and all jars open so easily. They pop with one easy twist. I always buy that brand in pickles mayonnaise etc.

I've got a couple of things that help with opening jars. The have a handle and a V-shape to adapt to any size jar. I couldn't live without them. When I get the Sunday paper I sometimes cut out the recipes that are among the coupons. I also purchase the recipe books that are at the checkout stand, especially if they say easy or for slow cookers. The other day I saw such a book in K-mart and really wanted it, but you had to buy the slow cooker too, but I already had one.

Louise from sunny Miami being envied this chilly day by this Midwesterner...my daughter bought me that gadget too and it really helps to hang on to things but don't you find you still have to twist and that Hurts?

I've never seen the Signature brand around here Kiwi lady, but sounds like a winner to me. I'm interested in the lime herb you mentioned. I love lime; so much better than lemon I think. Is there a brand or do you think I could get it in this area? Other than fresh, the only other thing available is juice in the green plastic squeeze thing blah!

Hello all! Sorry I'm slow in getting here but all sorts of offline things have kept me busy.

You're all making my mouth water when I read your posts. I'm also remembering some more childhood favorites that I still love to eat right now in my older age.

There was the bread porridge mom made for with thick pieces of white bread cooked in hot milk until the whole mixture became mushy. When served it was sprinkled with cinnamon and sugar.

And I loved Blanc Mange -in the Netherlands we called it lamb's porridge.

Another thing I loved was beschuit (rusk) in buttermilk with sugar sprinkled on top.

And grits cooked in buttermilk. Do you know I was most surprised when I visited Florida and someone said I had to try grits, and they turned out to be something I had often eaten in the Netherlands as a child?

I must be on my way again but will return for another taste of your yummy posts

I will ask Ruth what the plant is called. You may be able to get it at a nursery in the herb section. She was the one who bought it.

Carolyn

Nellie, this probably won't make your mouth water --

Reading and discusssing Sixpence House has sent me running around my house looking for the oldest books, one of which is an 1863 bound collection of Peterson's Magazine (which I had never heard of). The cook book section states "Every receipt in this cook-book has been tested by a practical housekeeper." So what's not so mouth-watering? How about Sheep's Head Soup "Cut the liver and lights into pieces and stew them in 4 qts. of water" . . . (along with vegetables and spices ) . . "then put in the head and boil it until quite tender." What are "lights?"

Blanc Mange? Isn't that a custard or lemony something sitting in meringue? Or the meringue is sitting in it? Yummy tasting?

PEDLIN, you may be sorry you asked, but the 'lights' are the lungs. Yecch~

Buttermilk is something I never liked, but grandparents on both sides of the family loved cornbread broken up into buttermilk. And a buttermilk pie is sheer heaven. Now does that make sense, I ask you? ..Babi

I read Mrs Beatons Cook book - there is a copy at our library - that was an eye opener too! The quantities of the recipes are huge!

Carolyn

Yes, but imagine that they might have had to cook for a huge family with children and for the staff, too. It would take a lot to keep hungry folks working on the farm without modern machinery fed.

Ruth Ann

Kiwi Lady, I 'm really interested in the lime herb. Will be grateful for any info you might have. I grew fresh parsley this year mostly for the decorative effect in the flower bed but I did dry a bit. and wouldn't you know? That little sprig grew to be the size of a big bushel basket!

Sounds like a menu for someone who diets! Buttermilk, Sheepshead, Lungs? It would work, took away my appetite!

I would have to add meatloaf to that list. I can't stand meatloaf! However I had 10 family members her celebrating one's birthday. The menu turned out to be meatloaf...and scalloped potatoes, peas, pasta salad and the usual cake but someone also brought strawberry shortcake. I feel like a hypocrite when someones says, "Oh you make the best meatloaf!" Excuse me! there is no such thing in MY opinion!

Camper, I think you're a brick to fix menus you don't like.

Missouri SeniorNetters met for lunch at Hermann, MO today, a small town on the Missouri River about 70 miles west of St. Louis. Hermann was settled in the 1840's by members of the German Society of Philadelphia. Lots of wineries and B&B's in the area, tourism abounds, especially for Octoberfest. The winery where we ate was started in 1847 and before prohibition was the 2nd largest winery in the US, 3rd largest internationally. During prohibition they used the wine cellars to grow mushrooms.

Some of us had German Sampler plates for lunch, including sauerbratten, knockwurst, schnitzel, red cabbage and potato pancake. Someone asked about a recipe for red cabbage. Anyone have one? Bunnie has an old Hermann cookbook, but didn't know if it had red cabbage. And I'd be interested in an EASY recipe for potato pancakes.

Yes, I toured the winery and tasted -- about 10 different kinds, from white to red to sweet. Didn't buy any. Just an old tightwad who prefers the less expensive Italian wines found in the grocery store.

Hello all! Here I am once more

pedln, yes sheep's head soup doesn't sound very appetizing. What would you say to cow's udder for eating? It was my mother's favorite dish back in the Netherlands and its surprisingly good tasting.

The blanc mange(lamb's porridge) is made with milk flavored with almond extract and cornstarch. It's a tricky thing to make because it can't be too thick and there must be no lumps in it.

Here's how my mother cooks red cabbage:

You need 1 head red cabbage, 3 Granny Smith apples, 10 or so while cloves, and a sprinkling of salt.

Shred the cabbage finely into a pan large enough to hold the shredded cabbage. Peel and cut the apples in large dice and mix into the shredded cabbage, mix in the cloves and the sprinkled on salt. Pour a quarter cup of water over the whole thing, cover the pan and after getting things going over high heat, simmer until everything is soft.

The above is usually served with mom's special meatballs and boiled potatoes.

Have a good Sunday all! I have enjoyed reading all you posts

After reading that red cabbage recipe, I added a jar of it to my shopping list and will have some for dinner along with Polish sausage. Yummie.

Do any of you have your recipe boxes from grade school? I still have mine and a few recipes also. Pop overs is one I can think of even tho it took a minute to do so.

Nellie, that red cabbage recipe does sound good. But does it come in a jar, as O'Sharny said? I've seen sauerkraut in a jar, of course. I'd be interested in trying a jar of it for myself. If I buy a head of cabbage and cook it my daughter won't touch it and most of it would go to waste. ...Babi

Hello: the red cabbage is very good, if you can find a one,
The pictures in the Photos now and than are very good ones, Bunnie, you are a GEM; Thanks for sharing them, Babs

BaBi: Yes, you can buy red cabbage in a jar. "Aunt Nellie's"...TRULY...is the name of one company...they also do beets, etc.

Interesting name. I laughed out loud when I looked in my pantry for the brand name.

pedln, thank you for the kind words!

Oh Nellie, cow's udder??? Please! You did redeem yourself with the blanc mange. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that a lot like a custard or pudding?

Jane, You are a girl after my own heart! Easy is a great word and in a jar is even better! After cooking 365 days a year for 50 years it does lose it's charm somewhat doesn't it? Don't misunderstand. I still do cook. A crispy cool day and I think homemade veg soup or chili and New Years day calls for ham and potato salad because it brings thoughts of summer. On the other hand....lots of tempting entrees in that frozen food section!

Marge

I have my recipe box from high school. One of the recipe's is for an apitizer orange...cut it in slices and put powdered sugar on top. I'll have to look around for it and see what other recipe's I have in there. Right now I have Aunt Nellie's Beets in the pantry, they are really good, like home made.

LOL. "Aunt Nellie's"! NELLIE, you have a soul companion of the same name here. As a connoisseur of the original, real thing, can you give an opinion on the 'Aunt Nellie' brand of red cabbage? I don't remember seeing the brand locally, but I will definitely look. After all, I haven't been looking for red cabbage in a jar. It may be up there waiting for me. ...Babi

I have a collection of about 300 cookbooks, including some that are quite old. I think one of my Fanny Farmer cookbooks was first published in the early 20's. I loved getting cookbooks in various places I've lived, and I enjoy church or synagogue cookbooks. I think the first cookbook I ever owned was a Better Homes and Gardens one. Then my husband brought me home a Rumford cookbook. He worked for the Rumford Chemical Company at the time, you know, Rumford Baking Powder.

I have a Gourmet cookbook that is 43 years old, brought to me when I was in the hospital after having my third child, my only daughter. I've used that cookbook a lot.

Of newer ones, I especially like the Giovanni Buggiali cookbooks. At one time I was a very good cook, and liked to experiment. I made things like Boeuf Bourguignon, Veal Marsala, Paella, Coquilles St. Jacques, a Veal Scallopine and things like that.

All my kids remember is soups I made, including fish chowder. And a casserole I can't stand made with frozen mixed vegetables, canned tomatoes, some ground beef and some hot dogs. I covered it all with a pastry crust, and I made good pastry. I think that's why they liked it.

At one time a niece of mine and I baked bread which we sold in a quaint little shop. We made all kinds of bread, including cheese bread, olive bread, dill bread, and pumpernickel. We also made sweet rolls shaped like wreaths. I loved baking pies; did not like making cakes, though I made plenty of them.

Originally from New England, I made some old standbys like Grapenut Pudding, Indian Pudding, Rhubarb sauce, and put up all kinds of jelly. I also cooked boiled lobsters. No, they don't scream when you put them in the water. Steamed clams, scallops, etc.

We always put sugar on our tomatoes, too, back where I came from in Massachusetts. My grandfather had a big vegetable garden and we ate corn until it came out of our ears. Golden Bantam, of course, which is still my favorite.

My apple pies were made with Northern Spy apples. I had to change to Rome apples for pie, since I couldn't get the kind I liked. Gravensteins make good pie, too.

I guess that's it for me today. After that can of SlimFast I just had for lunch, all this food sounds too good to me!

Mal

MAL, I have not had my lunch as yet and reading of all this food in here is making me hungry too, even the sheeps head soup might tickle the palate of someone who is late in having lunch. : )

Thank you PEDLN for suggesting that I stop by here and check out NELLIE's recipe for the red cabbage. I do intend to try it NELLIE, just as soon as I can find a head of red cabbage. I too remember Aunt Nellie's jars of beets and I have vague memories of seeing the red cabbage also but that was way back when...before I developed a taste for cabbage. One question that I would like to ask you NELLIE...the cabbage we had on Saturday had a slightly sweet flavor to it, yet I see there is no sugar in your recipe. Is it perhaps the apples that provide a sweetness or does your recipe produce a cabbage on the tart side?

When I'm not eating out, which I do most of the time, my cookbooks are the instructions found on the back, side, or front of frozen dinner boxes. However, I hasten to add I can cook baked potatoes and steak very well. You see, I give the baked potato about a 35 minute start in the oven then broil the steak in the broiler/oven for about 25 minutes. They are both done about the same time. Walla!! Diner is ready. Oh I almost forgot. I can make spaghetti, too. I use that secrete and ancient recipe called Rague sauce. It is only found in super markets all over the country.
)

Bill H

How delightful to learn that there is an Aunt Nellie who cans beets and red cabbage!

I asked my mother and she does sprinkle a bit of sugar over the cabbage and apples.

I've enjoyed everyone's posts -you've made my mouth water more than once -but now it is time for me to say farewell until the next time. (Now I'm truly on my sabbatical from the Books and SN, so that I can write full time, more or less.)

Let's all welcome Barbara who is up next with her topic: The Kennedys

"---The Kennedys ~ PBS Program Club ~ Nov. 11"

A discussion of "The Kennedys"
Premiering on PBS:
November 17 & 18 at 9:00 pm EST

Check Your Local PBS Schedule

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion

Weather ... whether or not

Whether it is Cold or,
Whether it is Hot,
We will have Weather,
Whether or not!

Feeling under the Weather?
    Hot enough for you?
      Cold enough for you?
        Wet enough for you?

Everyone talks about the Weather.

With the exception of a few Tropical Paradises most of Mankind is at the mercy of the local Weather.
Mankind generally lives in Moderate, Temperate, Climates However, he also lives in areas of Hostile Climates:
Arctic,
The Sahara Desert,
Rain Forests,
Areas of no Rainfall at all.
So Weather affects man constantly in his daily life.

How is the Weather where you live?"

LINKS

Current U.S. Weather

Weather Forecast... here on SeniorNet

First post about Weather

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Tiger Tom

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We sometimes excerpt quotes from discussions to display on pages on SeniorNet's site or in print documents. If you do NOT wish your words quoted, please email books@seniornet.org

Welcome,

How IS the weather where you are?

Here it is cold, overcast, rainy, typical fall day for where I live.

Tiger Tom

The weather in southern Michigan where I live was just Beautiful today, sun shining but we are told a cold spell is on it way so when it gets to bad I hope to go to Florida this year.

I do like your header very much as it is so clear and clean. Your humorous words are a hoot.

In this southern part of the state, we are supposed to have a high of 50 degrees, a low of 19 degrees, today. As it's 40 degrees and foggy now, the day will, I assume be warming up, then drastically cooling down.

Add in the steady rain w've been having, and the snow forecast for tonight, and it looks like a day for tea and a good book. Or some Thanksgiving dinner preparations and cleaning.

We have a deer season going on, and I think the hunters might prefer watching the Packers play today.

n

The weather in the Triangle area of North Carolina (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill) is fair today with a high of 75 degrees predicted for my little corner.

I hope we won't have a repeat of last December's ice storm. There was a great deal of damage with trees down everywhere you looked and damage to cars and houses. Here we had no electric power for 7 1/2 days. That meant no heat for us and no water for those who had wells. It was a real emergency.

After a couple of days, my daughter and her partner went out and bought a kerosene stove, which they put in this apartment addition to the house so I'd be warm. There is a good-sized fireplace in the main house which they used for cooking and heat.

It was a cooler than usual summer this year with a lot of rain, including rain from Hurricane Isabel, which fortunately only brushed by us here. After a couple of cold periods this fall, it's been quite warm here lately, lovely in fact, with cool nights.

Mal

Illinois Weather..

Our weather sounds a lot like nlhome's.. Dreary out there. I have not discovered why I stay up North in the winter... but I do like the change of seasons. The fresh spring.. with lots of grass and flowers and the fall with the beautiful colors. And in the summer the rich farmland makes it the bread-basket of America.

Weather,

Being Seniors, we have been around long enough to notice changes in weather patterns in our areas.

Where I Live there used to be at least one good snow fall a year, on average. These days it may be two or three years between snow fall if at all. I can remember times when there would be two feet of Snow on the ground. Haven't seen that in decades.

I understand that in the Middle U.S. (Dakota's on down) the incident of really cold winters has passed. I lived in North Dakota until I was 8, when I moved to the West Coast, I can remember my Father and Grandfather crawling under the house to thaw the pipes by burning rolled up Newspaper. It used to get down below Zero and stay there for some time. No longer, I understand.

There has been some really weird weather happening all over North America.

I sometimes believe that cutting down all of the forests has affected weather patterns. Trees tend to draw moisture in the form of Rain and also tend to keep an area cooler. When the trees are cut down the Rainfall decreases and the median temperature seems to rise.

Tiger Tom

Well if you want a lot of snow and dreary winters head up here to Green Bay. We're having freezing rain right now just in time for the Packer Game. Or turn on your TV to the game and the announcers will tell you all about our weather. Although, we don't get as much snow as we used to, but still several feet. Not all at once though. I stay here because by the time I would get everything packed up, it's summer again and why leave then. There are good things about winter in Wisconsin, give me some time and I'll think of something. LOL

Yesterday it was beautiful sun and all, today it is raining but into each life some rain must fall so we will apprieciate the Sunshine, "eh".

Midi ~~ Lets have another cup of coffee

We are having a blah summer. Very changeable weather - can go from humid to cool in one day. Today its raining and humid. We are in for a very windy summer. Even if we have no sun we can get sunburnt because of the very high UV levels in this part of the world. We now have UV indicaters being fitted at our outdoor swimming pool complexes etc.

Kiwi,

You are sitting right under that Ozone Hole aren't You?

Tiger Tom

Yes Tom we are. I met a Filipino lady up at our local library a while back and she explained that our sunshine feels like its burning the skin the minute it touches and its different from what she was used to back home. It does feel like its burning she was quite right. The danger is that as I said you get burned even on cloudy days.

Hi, Annie3!

From my vantage point of St. Paul, Minnesota I can sympathize with what you say about the winters there in Green Bay. Still, that wonderful football team should keep you warm, if nothing else. Before my husband's health went bad, we lived in Northwest Wisconsin and I loved the winters there! We each had a snowmobile, I used to go cross-country skiing, and we both loved ice-fishing, so there was a lot to do. the only thing I didn't like was the glare ice on those country roads which made it hazardous to drive. And the rest of the seasons are magnificent!

Lorrie

The football team does warm up the winter some, especially with an extended play off season and a super bowl win. I have my skies waxed and new ice skates and a great tobaggan this year so hoping for the best. And as always looking forward to Spring. The temperature has been in the 30's most of the day but now as evening closes in, it has increased to 52 which may have something to do with the win.

Sounds like you're ready! I am a Packers fan, so you can imagine the nagging I get here with all these Viking lovers! I've been called "cheesehead" too many times to count

Tom, are you still in California? How's your weather now? We are just getting our first measureable snow storm of the season, but it's warm and cozy here, and I don't have to drive in this stuff, so I don't really mind!

Lorrie

Annie, I wasn't aware of the rain in Green Bay today. I had the game on tv with the mute on and the radio turned on. Yes, all you readers, the Pack won today and so did the Vikings in Minnesota.

I talked to my brother in Minneapolis today and they were getting snow. Several inches of it and I guess it is heading for northern Wisconsin. He also said something about a "heat dome" over the cities. Anyone hear that expression before? I wonder if it is a new one the weather forecast people came up with.

As to my location, rain this morning and then some sunshine before getting colder tonight.

I sure could go for a heat dome, whatever that may be. I bet Tiger Tom knows what that is.

It seems like today is the day for Wisconsin posters! Here in the Milwaukee area it was warm for this time of year...in the upper fifties...but very gray. A typical November sky. We also watched the Packers...I have no desire to sit in the wet, cold stadium so we watched in the comfort of our home.

Lorrie, my husband, Jim, is a die-hard Packers fan. But he gets a charge out of wearing a Vikings jacket. He always gets a reaction from everyone around here.

Well, all you Wisconsin posters, why aren't we in the Wisconsin discussion? Nothing going on there.

Carlyn, got a smile out of your husband's jacket getting some LOOKS. I had a Cowboys rain jacket when we moved to the Houston area--Oiler country, back then.. When I would wear it, I got some hostile looks!

Weather,

Here it is cold but the Sun looks to come out for a bit and then rain later on.

Heat Dome, that is when there is a cloud cover over a city and the heat of the city is trapped in that cover. Or at least that is my story. Not too sure what a heat dome really is.

My team, the Seahawks, lost to the Ravens.

Hope you all have your warm slippers on and a Hot cuppa of something or the other.

84 in Honolulu today and 81 in Miami. But we don't mind our local weather do we?

This cold, damp, makes my bones let me know they are still around.

Tiger Tom

In Southeast Michigan it snowed a bit and it is still snowing, I love the snow as it is the cold wind that maybe sending me south.

We have had a frost and freeze warning out for all of Central Valley for last 3 days and now they said that is over. It is still very cold outside. Earlier, when I walked over to get the mail a wind was blowing that really froze me to the bone.

I have read that we are going into a warming period that precides the next ice age ...of course that happens over a long period of time ..I think I read it in the bright yellow paper back Almanac on my sisters coffee table. faith

Those of use who live in the semi tropical paradise of south Florida can also actually be at the mercy of the weather. Even though prediction methods have improved the tropical storm known as hurricane does strike fear in the hearts of people.

I do believe that many of the changes in weather patterns are the results of what humans have done to our environment in the way of pollution.

It was in the 70s on Sunday, but this morning when I walked the dog, we walked in a mixture of rain and snow. (BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR)

Ruth Ann

Here in Texas we never know what to expect. Today it's a cold day as it all started Sunday with the big blast from Canada. I don't mind the cold and i finally had to get out my winter jacket. We've had a killing frost for two days now and the leaves will finally fall off the trees for sure. I love the different seasons we have here. I spent 9 months in Hawaii and it was the same day in and day out. The winters there are about the same as the other seasons and you wake up and it may be 70 but get's to 80 or more during the day. Here I love the fresh cool air, the smell of autumn, the crunching of the leaves under your feet. Thanksgivng will be around 60 to 65 and there where times we had to have the airconditioner on or the windows open. I was raised in Cicero, Ill and now I don't want the snow and cold there. I guess my blood has thinned out from living here. I have a sister who claims that the dhanges of weather all started when the volcano in the state of Washington erupted and she really believes it. (SMILE) Today the sun is shinning so bright that I will have to wear my sunglasses. Oh well anyway have a nice day.

ODE TO THE WEATHER IN NOVA SCOTIA, CANADA

Where ...In a day - snow, hail, rain, sunshine, spring-like zephyrs, mercury plummeting and a blizzard howling.

Where ...The promise of Spring in April and May is surely a study in frustration.

Where ...The heat of July and August finds us wishing for cooler sea breezes.

Where ...The colours of the lingering Autumn glory the landscape and make our hearts glad.

And also where....Our favourite quote from "down home" is: "Don't like the weather?? Wait five minutes!!"

Very good discussion and an endless topic for conversation.

Yes, an endless topic. When I go for my daily walk I do it around the park I live in. Everyone I meet comments on the weather and today it was "brr" it is cold weather. And the various aches a nd pains we elders are having in this mild cold snap.

Mild to me anyway as it just dropped to 29 the lowest and I remember Colorado where I lived many years ago when it warmed up to 29 it was called the Chinook breeze. We never saw it more than 10 degrees (above zero) all winter and it was severe weather when it dropped to 20 degrees below zero. And snow covered the first floor of the house.

I went out a bedroom window upstairs and stood on a roof projection to hang up cloths to freeze dry. In the winter months they dried board stiff in about 10 minutes but I would leave heavy things like work cloths etc. out for 30 minutes. Then a good hard shake and hang up on the wood rack in the kitchen corner where they thawed and finished drying. Boy they were soft after that freeze. And boy those wood and coal fires were hard to keep going 24 hours a day to keep that house warm.

I have heard from friends that Climax as a town is no more. To bad. It was an adventure working and living there. Faith

We in Western Pennsylvania enjoyed balmy weather this past Saturday and Sunday almost summer like. Then Whaaam! A very cold wind blew in Monday morning and I woke up Monday and saw a light covering of snow on my front lawn along with my neighbors leaves. Of course, the same held true for my back yard, too. You see, my back yard isn't very far from my front yard )

Bill H

We,in the Los Angeles basin, have enjoyed a series of nice days that start out crisply in the morning but with a bright sun finally warm up to the low 70's. Unfortunately, I came down with a whopper cold last Saturday so that I can't really enjoy good weather. But Tom, thanks for finally getting us out of the kitchen. I felt lost in a company of good cooks. losalbern

We are having stink weather here! Today its humid and raining. Well over 90% humidity and about 70F. With the humidity it feels a lot hotter!

Carolyn

Weather,

We too, in the State of Washington, have the saying: "If you don't like the weather stick around for five minutes, it will change."

Unfortunately, that is all too true. We can go from warm and balmy to cold and rainy in a matter of minutes. Then back to Blue Skies and Sunshine but cool. Keeps things interesting.

There is a saying that if one can last five years in the State Of Washington one will be able to live here. Most of our immigrants only last a season or two and then head back to where they came from.

Washington is a Beautiful state, visually, when the sky is Blue and the Sun is Shining: Lakes, Mountains, the Puget Sound, Forests, the Pacific Ocean. However, when it starts to Rain in October and doesn't stop until March or April that gets to people who were not born and raised here. The Rain is a misty rain that goes right through one and is miserable.

People who live On Vancouver Islands in B.C. have the same type of climate.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

I know the West Coast climate so well. Spent 10 years in Vancouver, B.C. and never did look back over my shoulder when I got off the plane in Toronto, for the last time!! It was the continuous rain that got to me.

However, having said that, 19 years on the Prairies was no picnic! Those winters last from September to May and it's nothing to experience minus 90 degrees in the windchill. If you lived in the Dakotas, as I think I saw you mention, you will know what that was like also. Mind, it was a "dry" cold.

Very interesting readng about the weather from everywhere.

a winter person at all. When we left Omaha in January of 1950 I had to dig our car out of a snowbank and I swore that would never happen again. ( So far, so good!) I really hate cold weather with a passion. Many a time I stood like a statue, frozen stiff, while waiting for a Bus to appear out of the dancing snowfall that poets love to rave about. Forget it! But we pay a price for our great Southern California weather. It turns out that there are millions of people just like me who have migrated here to leave behind their own brand of cold, cold weather. That accounts for a very good reason our freeways are clogged with cars most all the time. By the way, we have another very nice, sunny day today! losalbern

What is an average mid winter temperature in Los Angeles?

Carolyn

I have no idea what the average temperature here is year round. I don't really pay that much attention to it, I guess. Just now my little whing-ding weather forecaster records the outside temp to be 77.4 . It is a nice bright Thanksgiving day ! How are things downunder? losalbern

Carolyn: The World Almanac 2004 says that the Normal high/low for LA for January are: Normal High = 66°; normal low=49°

today in southern Michigan but did not stay. Temp not to bad either as it was in the 40ies.

Weather,

Rained like the devil all day, heavy Rain. Windy too.

Didn't seem to dampen the shoppers enthusiasm. They were lined up at Walmart from about 3:00 A. M. on.

Tiger Tom

Weather,

What? Are we all hiding in the Storm Cellar?

Or are you all having such great weather that you haven't time to Post?

Cold here, Rain coming, typical weather for my neck of the woods.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom

Hiding here...under a Poncho!

First snow with any accumulation! Very nice fluffy flakes, which I fear will not last. However, my favourite "black cloud" is everywhere, so it must be swirling around all over the place.

Maybe tomorrow we shall wake up to a Wonderland!

I like it, truthfully. Much more cheerful than the drab, overcast rainy weather of late.

Now, watch me eat my words!!!

Yesterday, the end of November, was so fine here - sun and warmth, at least in the southern part of the state. By mid afternoon, though, we almost blew away, and the wind continues today. No snow, none forecast. Yesterday was a great day for a walk, but today I'm glad I have a car to run my errands. The temperature is much lower, though not freezing.

The birds are clinging to the feeder but give up and drop to the ground.

We put out our Christmas lights and decorations this weekend, taking advantage of the warmer temperatures.

N

Beautiful day in southwest Michigan today the Sun is shining with No cold wind, I went to the library today to pick up "Couldn't keep it myself" and have it till the 22nd so canceled buying the book so All is well here.

Its going to be about 71 here in Auckland today. Its about time too! The beginning of our summer has been really disappointing. We have been told by the met service we are not going to get rid of the wind all summer! I guess its better than being totally swamped by our usual high humidity in summer.

Carolyn

Wind,

We are forecast for Wind about the middle of the week. We have had more wind in the past year than I can remember ever happening before.

It will be interesting to see if it blows down some of the outdoor exhibits for Christmas.

Tiger Tom

Well I haven't said much here from northern Wisconsin where it's 32 degrees because I'm packing up and heading for Auckland!!

Annie,

Wish I could go there too. Have always wanted to see the countries "Down Under."

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, I wish I could go there too. It was said in jest, just wishful thinking when I saw how warm it is there.

Annie3,

Anywhere that it is warm would be welcome to these old bones.

Tahiti, Hawaii, Florida, or "Down Under"

Tiger Tom

We've got highs predicted in the mid50s here in Chattanooga (SE corner of TN) with lows tonight around 30. Typical winter weather for us. It's a gorgeous day, bright sunshine, blue skies. A little too windy for John, though - that means he can't row on the river, and has to do his "rowing" indoors on the erg machine.

Just noticed you are talking about weather, a favorite topic of mine. I've been trying to understand it better without reading technical meteorology books, which intimidate me. Do any of you have suggestions for good popular books?

I have always been interested in thunderstorms. I have seen several explanations of how they form, but they seem to be either too general or too technical. I am fascinated by the fact that they destroy themselves.

My daughter and I are thunderstorm counters. We read somewhere that in our area (suburbs of Washington DC) there are 20 to 40 thunderstorm days a year.(days in which there is at least one thunderstorm). My daughter bet that there were more than that. So we have been counting them for two years. (Last year there were 37, this year so far 51). My friends have gotten in the act, and whenever it thunders, I get phone calls --"it thundered today". Maps are available on the web for the continental US, but I'd be interested in what you all from other countries have experienced. Does anyone else do this, or am I crazy?

JoanK, very interesting that you count the thunderstorms. I realized that we didn't have any thunderstorms here last summer. Maybe one that I didn't notice but I don't think so. I dread them, especially the lightening. The year before was quite mild also.

We have had sunshine today but clouds are moving in and some snow is expected in the next day or so. The east coast of the US had quite a snowstorm that was shown on tv. Boston MA and Syracuse NY were hard hit.So early in the season although my area has a normal snowfall of 11 inches in Dec. At least we are out of Nov which is our cloudiest month. THINK SPRING.

They've mentioned that four-letter-word (S***) in the forecast here for Saturday. I really think that it's just a ploy for the grocery stores to stock up and sell all the milk and bread on their shelves. And we usually get nothing at all or just a flurry or two.

Storms,

I uderstand that Australia had quite a storm yesterday. Something like four inches on rain in two hours and lots of wind.

Tiger Tom

I heard today that is snowed in Hawaii today on a Vocano, It was on line anyone else heard it?

Ginger,

If the Volcanoa is high enough and the conditions are right there can be snow there.

Tiger Tom

but the streets were wet this a.m. like it tried to rain and couldn't quite make it. We have had some very nice sunny Fall days this past week but, shucks I scarcely got out of the house because of this darned old "Super Cold" bug that has been going around. And google news tells about the Denver flu that is prevelant there. I wish we would get a good rainfall to clear the air. losalbern

In south Florida the weather for the last few days has been really wonderful. Sunday the temperature did drop to the mid 60's so I put a light blanket on the bed. Skies are blue and slightly hazy. There is sunshine and a breeze. Yesterday as I was waiting for a bus I saw a huge flock of birds flying about and settling on top of a building. I couldn't see what kind they were, but I suppose they were headed south to a warmer location. To me this is Florida at its best.

60 degrees is perfect weather to me. We are supose to get snow tonight I like snow as long as it is not to cold.

When he made his famous declaration, "everybody talks about the weather but nobody does anything about it". Not true anymore, Mark, some of those snowbirds from "up north" head for Phoenix, Southern California or Florida! They "Do Something" about the cold, cold weather they want to avoid! losalbern

Beatifull snow on the ground today and it is Not to cold, I love it so far. (BG)

Snow,

Seems like people in the New England states are in for a few snow storms.

We have had some strong wind storms here.

Looks like the weather is being normal, lousy.

Tiger Tom

We had a little snow here in the southern part of the state - but it's melting fast. I think winter should be winter, so I wish the snow would stay.

N

Well it's still Fall until the 21st, and I think Fall should be Fall...hahahaha....no snow in Green Bay...yeah!!

No snow in Green Bay...yet!

N

To Tiger Tom, I'm new to these discussions and popped in to see Whether the Weather is good for the Wether. Yes I live down under, in the Outer Eastern region of Melbourne Victoria.

In the twenty odd years I have lived in my little spot, I have never experienced such a hail storm. It was driven by a strong south westerly wind, I stood at the window and watch in amazement, only a few were golf ball size at my place, but about half a kilometre away (as the crow flies) cars in carparks and dealer yards were completed wrecked. My car was outside and only has a few slight dents if you run your hand over. Lots of local flooding.

I was speaking with a friend in the Hunter Valley area of NSW, they had much the same the day after. He was on his rideon mower when the storm struck, raced to the shed to escape the onslaught and had to sit with his fingers in his ears for the duration.

Rence

Its warm here in Auckland but the humidity which hits every afternoon is wearing! Auckland is very very humid. It feels much hotter than it is and makes everyone cross and lethargic. Someone could email me a snowball!

kiwi lady

Are you sure you want a snowball???

Here's the East Coast weather. Imagine me thinking of flying into Halifax this weekend to attend a concert. Would have been wonderful, too. Nana Mouskouri and John McDermott in concert!!

Oh groan. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HALIFAX - The storm that has blasted the U.S. Northeast on Saturday is expected to make life miserable in the Maritimes on Sunday.

"We could get a heavy snowstorm of up to 30 centimetres in many parts of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and P.E.I.," said Environment Canada.

On Saturday, some flights out of eastern Canada to New York were cancelled because of the blizzards.

The Canadian flights were among hundreds cancelled as two severe storms hit states from Maine to Maryland. Air traffic coming into and going out of airports from Boston to Washington was affected.

Parts of Massachusetts and Vermont could have 60 centimetres of snow by Sunday, meteorologists warned.

The U.S. National Weather Service issued blizzard and heavy snow warnings for much of Maine, Connecticut, New York and New Jersey.

At least eight traffic deaths were being blamed on the surge of sleet and snow, which began Friday.

Roads were treacherous. "We've been slipping all over," one driver said.

Police asked people to avoid driving. "There will be other weekends to Christmas shop. This isn't the one," said Rhode Island State Police.

All kinds of sporting, social and cultural events were cancelled.

Just talked to my niece in Montclair NJ and they were all tucked up and snowbound...Chicago did not get ANY...My son phoned from the bus going back on Friday into New York and told me that it was really coming down..the biggest thing that concerns me is that the family is travelling from the West Coast and the Midwest for Christmas. So....let's hope we all make our flights into Newark... Colkot

Oh yes, big storms on the east coast of the US.

Kiwi lady, when I first got a 'puter, someone sent me a snowball via email. It was so funny and it had to be sent on and on and on.

The other night, my son-in-law was coming home at midnight and as he drove down the short valley, it was snowing at the top and raining at the bottom.

No snow here tho.

Its raining here this afternoon. Gentle steady rain. The garden will love it and its cooled the air. Heavenly! Its so green here.

So,

We have come to the end of our discussion of the Weather. I wish we had more time to really cover the subject.

However, thanks to all that participated.

Ginny is taking up the next Curious minds discussion.

Thanks again

Tiger Tom

Thanks Tom, I was hoping to have more to report on the Northern lights and I'm interested in learning more about clouds, so maybe we can do this again sometime.

Thank you, Tom, wonderful discussion on the weather, we're all involved with and know about weather!

Our next topic is something you may NOT know much about and we'd like to invite you over to the PBS Program Clubs discussion of Women in Prison.

There will be a show on PBS on December 16, (check your local listings) in which such stars as Meryl Streep and Marisa Tomei act out the writings of women in prison.

We are finding in the Wally Lamb discussion, in talking to some of the co authors of his book who WERE incarcerated, that all prisoners are not alike, and that, in fact, they have a lot to teach US.

What is YOUR knowledge of prisons? Take our now, it will go off on Decmeber 16, and see what your own beliefs are, and then let's see if we learn something.

Do you believe in capital punishment?

What are prions FOR?

Is everybody who is IN prison there rightly?

Do you think it takes a LOT, since we've watched the OJ Simpson trial, to even GET a person convicted?

The discussion is just starting over in the PBS area, please go add your thoughts on any of these things and let us know WHAT YOU THINK!

SeniorNet Books is honored to BE the online discussion boards for PBS Program Clubs!! YOU are chosen because they saw (thanks to Barbara who brought us to their attention) you really (and this is a verbatim quote) "get it!" and know how to discuss issues, won't you come over and add your own thoughts and sometime around the 12th we'll really get going?

Hope to welcome you in that discussion!

This discussion is now Read Only, come talk to us over there!

ginny

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion

Babies Watch Videos

Can babies be harmed from watching videos as early as three, six, twelve months old? Can they realize the difference between reality and fiction as their brain is developing patterns of behavior from their environment? Can parents explain to a baby that what they are watching is not the real life? Are there harmful effects from this on their future?

Come and give us your opinion on this in
Curious Minds of January 4th to January to 17th

LINKS

A Growing Number of Video Viewers Watch From the Crib
Turning Baby into Baby Einstein

First post for Babies Watch Videos

Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Eloise De Pelteau

Happy New Year everybody, Here we are again in Curious Minds getting together to discuss about the world around us. A new year and a new baby always go together and I thought that the subject of babies watching videos was a good subject to bring up.

When my children were small, television was quite new and when I saw how carried away they were while watching it, I was concerned about the effect it would have on them later on in life. What has been your experience about the effect TV had on your children as they grew up?

Nowadays, there are videos for babies too young to walk or talk, but video producers claim that babies can learn from them. I am wondering if a baby, who has a high capacity for absorbing information, will learn something more profitable from television and videos than they learn from parents or caregivers.

We will be examining all facets of this in the next two weeks, the pros and cons, the new television programs compared with the old ones, the rise of violence and graphic sex that young children are exposed to on a daily basis, the length of time that young children spend in front of a television screen, the chance to learn about the world as we never had a chance to before television.

Give us your views on all sides of the question, this way we can learn from each other.

Eloïse

Now that the festivities are over, the reality of life beckons us to take risks in discussing issues that we are all confronted with on a daily basis.

What we see from a senior's point of view can prompt us to make hasty judgment as to what is good for children and what is bad because we have a lot of experience and I believe our views are respected, but for that, we have to say what we think freely.

I believe that the topic of "Babies Watching Videos" is very relevant today. So on Sunday we will start to look at the different angles and you will all post your opinions.

Be sure to read the interesting links posted above.

Eloïse

Tomorrow is the start of this new Curious Minds "Babies Watch Videos" and I will be watching for reaction to this topic with great interest. Do come and share your views one and all, it promises to be full of surprises.

Eloïse

HO! What a topic! Baby Einstein, what an article, I have printed it out and can't wait to read it and SEE what they now think!

WE now live in an era where people try to start while the child is in the womb with tapes of special music and Mozart, and all to make each baby an Einstein.

How times change!@

Wasn't too long ago that teachers did not WANT the child taught to read before he entered school, do you all remember that? Said he would be "bored?" Leave it to the school, they said. Then they swung the entire way around with Head Start.

Sesame Street started.

Flash cards for young children, swimming classes for newborns, the names of the refrigerator, etc., taped to the appliance. Now they say that the incidence of child obesity is proportionate to the TV hours he watches, (and also a propensity to violence) and WHAT is he watching?

Have you ever WATCHED some of those cartoons for children?

What does it do to a baby when the babysitter is a television set?

Can you really increase a child's intelligence by putting on a certain video?

I can't wait to hear what people say about this one, I don't have any grandchildren and am anxious to learn what the new thinking is!

SUPER topic, Eloise!

ginny

Ginny, you spoke tosome of the things that have been interesting me about the way the unborn child is treated. In my most recent experience, my daughter-in-law had told me that her 8-year-old daughter would talk to the baby every night while she was pregnant.

Well, I was present at the birth, and of course, baby Georgia was screaming in protest at all the weighing, measuring, etc. So, as an experiment, I said, "Kassie, the baby knows your voice - why not go speak to her and see if she'll stop crying."

So, Kassie dashed over to the warming table. Baby Georgia's head was turned away from the side where Kassie stood. She didn't touch her, just said, "Hey, baby, this is your big sister, Kassie!"

Instantly, Georgia stopped crying, turned her head in Kassie's direction, and waited for her to say more. Then Kassie sang her a song she had sung sometimes before the baby's birth. That quieted little Georgia, and all was well in the birthing room.

Ruth Ann

Congratulations, Eloise! A wonderful and timely topic.
I am sure that as days pass participants will comment on the various types of things that infants see on video and TV -- in other words will comment more on the message given rather than the medium itself (TV for example.) But I would like to refer to a fellow Canadian of Eloise's -- scholar Marshall McLuhan who decades ago made a statement which most people at that time did not understand. He said:-"The medium IS the message." In other words, the form and properties of the medium that conveys the message is as important as its content.
Technology in general and the electronic communications media specifically represent great goods, but as with any great good, they can be the occasion of great evil. Marshall McLuhan warned of the danger of what he called "discarnate man" where the person loses contact with his body.
Let us visualize this infant sitting before the video and let us, for the moment, ignore the content of the program. The child's attention is riveted on the screen. Research has indicated that when one part of the brain is focused on one sense (watching the screen in this case) that the parts of the brain which handle the other senses are dulled. The infant before the screen knows nothing of what else is going on around him -- the touch of his mother's hand, the sound of his sibling's voice, the smell of a meal being cooked. Depending on his age, he knows only that his entire world exists within a box which has bright flashing objects and sounds which are probably unintelligible to him.
This is why TV is so often used as a "baby sitter." It is not necessary for the child to understand the program. It is only necessary that it hold his attention. In a sense, he becomes hypnotized and lives within a false world.
Is this how we want our infants to develop?

Robby

GINNY! Welcome, yes, times change from when my children were babies, now even my grand'children are no longer babies, but they did watch Sesame Street. Is it still on I wonder. As far as intelligence, I wonder if you can change anything from what you are born with. Perhaps you can become more "curious"? Let's see what others think!!!!! I would have to consult a specialist.

And there you go Robby as a practicing Psychologist, what you said is so true. When I talk to my grand'children while they are watching something, they don't hear me unless I snap them out of it to pay attention.

Robby said something very significant, and my feeling is that there MUST be something good that comes out of it, now what is it?

Eloïse

Good morning! This sounds (looks?) like a very interesting discussion, thank you Eloise for thinking of it. And having Robby as our resident psychologist is a special treat indeed.

I have always felt that TV was a 2-bladed knife that can be used for good and bad. It can entertain children and educate them, when used in moderation and if the programs are good. School libraries have wonderful videos for all ages, and it's a lot easier and more fun to learn history this way than from a book, for example. Yes, Eloise, Sesame Street still exists; it started in 1968 when my 3rd daughter was born and I loved it and watched it with my girls. But when TV takes over, no matter what's on, I feel it destroys something in the brain. I have a grandson who doesn't like to read because video games have become his life (he is 10). I feel it's healthier for children to play outside or be creative by drawing or building or playing house or whatever else. In the long run, I believe it's the parents' responsibility to monitor the TV watching: it's probably harmless when used intelligently, but destructive when used as a babysitter, just so the parent has peace and doesn't have to do a parent's job.

Yes, ELOISE, Sesame Street is still on Public Television here.

All three of my children were exposed to TV when they were very small. Yes, from time to time I used it as a babysitter. My kids were also exposed to books and a great deal of music, both classical and jazz, on the radio, on TV, on recordings, and played by their father and mother. I think television and all of these things were very positive factors in their young lives.

My youngest grandchild, age 4, has watched the Einstein series since she was a baby. My New York son and his wife have made sure of that. Leah Paris is a very bright child. She started going to pre-school when she was barely three, and can read some and write quite a few words by now. My own kids were a little older than that when they first went to school. All of them knew how to read before they went to public school, having learned how from their parents and certain programs on TV.

My North Carolina grandson, age 18 now, watched TV early. He also began playing games on the computer when he was barely four years old. By the time he was five, he was playing video games on the TV. He plays them still. By age 9 he was creating computer programs. He won a full scholarship to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill last year and is there majoring in mathematics; has just developed a new formula with a professor at MIT.

I don't know about you, but I can become "discarnate", not just when I watch a movie on TV, but when I read a book, build web pages, write, do computer research, or am completely focused on anything. I think it is an advantage to be able to shut the rest of the world out when I'm doing these things. I notice the same tendency in all three of my children and the one grandchild I know well. None of them has lacked human touch or love.

Everything in life is something to be learned. The more my kids, my grandchildren and I are exposed to, the better education we have. It's my opinion that television and computers contain as much, if not more, than what some colleges offer. I do not have negative feelings about either. Of course, my children and I don't access much "junk", mainly because we find it boring and dull.

Mal

Consider many of the accomplishments of Mankind. As is sometimes said:-"What the mind can conceive, Man can achieve." When we use the word, "conceive" in this concept, we are talking about imagination. Currently in The Story of Civilization, we are talking about Julius Caesar who, in his mind, imagined a highway crossing Italy from one sea to the other and imagined a canal at Corinth connecting two seas. Then he called in his engineers and said: "Do it!"
Was their job hard? Of course. But using the imagination is not that easy either. It requires stimulating the brain cells from birth, forcing them to do their work. "Use it or lose it."
Now think back to the golden days of radio when TV or video or video games did not exist. I am fortunate in that I am able to pull in one of the Washington, DC, public radio stations which each Sunday night broadcasts four hours of the old-time radio programs. Each Sunday night I curl up in bed and listen to "Gunsmoke," "Lum and Abner," "The Cavalcade of Stars", all the varying mystery stories, and on and on. I "see" Marshall Dillon as he strides across to "Doc's" office where someone is being treated or "watch" as he hops on his horse out into the desert. I "see" all the stuff falling out of McGee's closet.
When the infant watches these same types of programs on video, he has no need to stimulate his brain cells. He/she is a passive observer. The writer of the show used his imagination. The child did not. So as he grows older and is asked to write an essay, he says "duh?"

Robby

ROBBY, my grandchildren would prove you wrong. Whenever my grandson here watched a TV show when he was little, after it was over, he invariably made up a story about what would come next. I understand that my four year old granddaughter is the same. I'll grant you the fact that these kids have very imaginative parents and grandparents. Maybe it's in the genes.

I do not listen to old radio shows or watch old movies. Sometimes I watch a relatively new movie which stimulates my thinking about right now and the future, or else I'm here at the computer building web pages, or writing a book, in other words creatively using my imagination.

Mal

hmmm babies and TV - well at least they are hearing and seeing more than a toy overhead - I wonder if babies are ever in high chairs anymore - the carrier seems to be their permenant daytime position - I guess I am wondering if mother's even have time for the exasperating baby habit of playing with toys while in the highchair and the toy is finally tied to a string since all the baby does is throw it over the side - but then even on a string the baby never seems to figure out how to pull it back - oh the meals and floors being scrubbed that were interupted by a baby wanting the toy just thrown off the highchair table - I do not see babies in their carrier thowing toys over the side and so I am wondering just how much exercize babies get - I wonder also if the container for babies is more the cause of no exercize then wether or not they are watching TV.

I would think if a baby is creeping around on the floor the TV is just one more talking toy - as to an infant - well the sound of the TV is what bothers me and personally I would prefer music or stories on the CD player - and to this day it is most unusual to have the TV on before 5:00 in the evening - when the children were little they did watch the Captain each morning before we started our day - that hour gave me a chance to clean up the kitchen and when they were a bit older (3, 4 and 5) I even did some garden weeding - after the Captain it was strip the beds and get the laundry started etc.

Actually watching TV in the living room or eating area is a lot less dangerous than years ago when the baby was right there in the kitchen as mom handled everything that included a hot stove with a live fire in it. To my way of thinking watching TV while mom is busy with the necessaries of daily life is one big step up as compared to the baby sitting in the middle of the kitchen with knives, hot stoves, hot water, accidental spills, maybe even the laundry in a big tub off the kitchen - Mom cannot devote all her time to the baby regardless 1879 - 1959 or 2004 and TV to me is a better toy than many...

In my personal experience I had two children that did not have TV till they were in second and the older in sixth grade at school. They did have radio and record players in their bedrooms and used them. They read "picture books" from infancy on and the older learned to read before she was five by herself really. When we did get a TV they were more bored by it than amused. They were much bigger when a few good programs (Westerns like Wagon Train) held their attention but not for more than just the one show then they were off playing.

My third child had TV from birth on. She paid no attention to it though it might be on while she was crawling around the living room. At age 4 she began watching one program "Ding Dong School". She would go get her chair and put it right in front of the TV and watch for 30 minutes. There were play along games and she entered into it as if it were a class room. Of course she had "preschool" which the others had never had. When it was over she went back to her physical play routine.

In my opinion these kids had more diversity than the children today. They learned through all their senses and it seems very important to have all those large muscle groups used in "play" in-order to develop properly. We had swings, jungle jims, bars, teeter totters etc and many neighbor hood kids playing outdoor games of skill also.So their day was filled with many differing activities and I was lucky to be there in the house to supervise and give them a base to run out and play from and know they had someone there to watch over them and return too. They tell me as grownups that just knowing I was there was a factor in their fearlessness in exploring the world out side. Latch key kids have to lock themselves in the home and are afraid to answer the door. Then they watch action on screens while their own body is without activity. I wonder that they grow up as normal as they seem to. Faith

Speaking of swings, jungle gyms, teeter-totters, etc., where does obesity fit into the subject of infants watching videos? Have any of you in the supermarket noticed the number of fat 2-3 old children?

Robby

It's my contention that if children (and adults) are fed the currently popular American fast food diet at school, during recreation time and at home, they'll put on weight, whether or not they spend time in front of TV. They won't gain weight watching television unless they're on a high calorie, salty, high in fat, high carbohydrate diet which contains few vegetables and fruits, and eat snacks all the time they're watching.

I don't know of a single school in the Triangle area of North Carolina where it isn't mandatory for all students to participate in rigorous physical education programs and sports like baseball, football, soccer and tennis. If they don't fulfill the phys. ed. requirements, they are not promoted to the next grade. My grandson here is no athlete, but he was out there competing at sports with the rest of them throughout his grade school, middle school and high school years.

I've had the gratifying experience of watching this young man grow up from the time he was five years old. Except for one year I've lived in the same house that he did, so what I know about him is firsthand. One thing I know for sure is that he is 6'4" tall, and always has been and still is very, very slim in spite of all his TV viewing and game playing and time spent at the computer. I also know that his diet has always been very good.

Mal

Mal;--I hear what you are saying about schools but the topic of this forum is "Babies."

Robby

Message received. Scratch my post. I'm off to other things.

Mal

Well, I just read all of the posts and think that I am in the middle here. When I brought my youngest home from the hospital at the tender age of 3 days old, I noticed that if the TV was on, his eyes just naturally gravitated toward it. When he got older, he sat in a baby seat and was dragged everywhere with me while I did my homemaker stuff. He sat, in his seat, on the counter watching me cook, do dishes, iron and talk on the phone but the TV was still watched if on. He actually doesn't seem to have been hurt by all his TV watching. Successful father, computer engineer now, he has spent long evenings in front of the TV with a succession of four new infants on his lap and they seem fine also. I think we are all over stimulated by TV and life in general in this age of technology. But, does watching as an infant hurt children? I think the jury is still out on that one.

I allowed my children to watch TV when I was watching myself. I chose things for those times which were happy, relaxing type shows. They were mostly music and had a very calming affect on the children, as babies. When a little older, I always made sure to tell them which things were "make believe" and which were not.

I think, myself, that TV (didn't have video then) has enhanced their lives, for the most part. Only my own opinion, of course, but I have never noticed any negative results.

I long ago came to the conclusion (no statistics to back up my opinion) that the intellectual level of Senior Netters is a higher level than many, if not most, non-Senior Netters of similar age. One factor that many of you are bringing into this equation is the approach of the parent toward use of TV or Video by children. I am seeing here that a significant number of you allowed your children to watch TV but with a cautious and/or balanced approach on your part.

Robby

Welcome to this new topic, Ginger, Ginny, Robby, MsSuzy, Mal, Barbara, Ruth Ann, Ann. I am excited about the interest generated by this topic.

I come home and what do I read? LOTS of stuff. Most of it so revealing to me and I want to examine all the posts carefully.

Ruth Ann What you said about a fetus hearing sounds and I believe especially the heart beat is so important. I usually associate it with how much the drum beat is important especially to teens, is there a connection? Perhaps Robby can answer that. AND what about the smell of a baby's mother, because their sense of smell is very acute?

Robby Is a baby watching videos hypnotized or is he/she just mesmerized? or just plain interested? What is the difference?

MsSuzy I see many interesting documentaries on history, are there more educational programs/videos than entertaining ones for babies and children?

Mal. Your grandson is exceptional I am sure and he takes after you for creativity perhaps. My grandson now 24 watched endless hours on video games as a child, I don't remember if he watched them as a baby though, my daughter was careful about that, but his father, other grandparents encouraged this. He has always been a fine child and now he is finishing his University degree.

Barbara I hope to hear from those who have seen babies watch videos, I can only go by the graphic on the heading where you have a baby holding up a bottle and eyes riveted on the Simpson's on TV. (Ginny found that graphic for me)

Ann Yes of course, the mother is active in the house and at the same time interacting with the baby, I think the baby will be more interested in what his mother is doing than passively just watching a program. Can it be that a child will develop better when his mother interacts with him/her.

Interesting subject. My 3 kids grew up with TV on in the family room with game shows, news, whatever my husband and I wanted to watch, and they had their own black & white TVs in their room very young, just rabbit ears, no cable (nothing raunchy). They played Monopoly, cards, etc. in front of TV, even did their homework with TV on. It taught them how to handle doing more than one thing at a time. All stayed on their honor roll, did all the school activities(band, cheerleading, football, basketball, clubs, etc.) and enjoyed life. We encouraged them to take part in many activities such as joining the Junior Kennel Club for a neighbor that raised show dogs, working with the dogs. They all earned money to pay their own car insurance for a car we provided them at 14 (legal age to drive to school or work in KS), but we insisted the grades stayed up or no work/no car.

They all read before school age. On my daughter's 4th birthday I took her to the library to get her own card because the librarian had told her "when she could write her name, address and phone number without help, she could have a card". They had never issued one to anyone so young. She has a Masters in Ele.Engineering, was homecoming queen her Soph.year in college (with enrollment of over 17,000 students at the time), drill team captain...worked, and took honors classes. She has 4 children that grew up with TVs & day care... oldest son graduated Magna CumLaude with Aero-space Eng.degree & works for NASA. Next is a year from same degree and SHE just finished a semester interning with NASA. Our sons both got honorary scholarships, good degrees and great jobs, married and have children that watch a lot of TV and play computer games.

I just don't think you can call anything that keeps the mind active "bad", but our kids saw us build a 2600sq.ft. house from scratch, I'm talking every nail and board from foundation to roof/ wiring to plumbing... while the oldest was still in ele.school. During that year of building my husband was out of town 3 months from Monday to Friday... so I had many jobs to handle, along with 3 kids, while he was gone. You would be amazed at what each of them can do as an adult, and still love to watch TV in the evening.

I was a "stay-at-home" wife/mother, so ran the house like it was my job. Handled the bills, did all my own work, sewed, painted in oils & watercolors and sold them at a couple shows a year. I took my electric mixer apart to fix while baking a German Chocolate cake from scratch..or the sweeper. I even put an alternator/generator belt on the Cadillac when the red light came on and it was "cookie day" for one of the kids. Been a long time ago, but we still think we can do anything, and so do our kids. They all live here in town and we enjoy them and glad to share our lives with them. I really LIKE my kids, as well as love them. I don't think growing up with a TV on from morning till bedtime hurt any of them. One thing I should say is that when ours grew up (oldest born in '56) we didn't even have VCRs, so they didn't have the educational videos, but they all read books while glancing at the TV <grin>. They watched as babies, though.

One thing I'd like to say, with all this hindsight, when my children were very young, when they were teenagers and after they finished college and married, I was never sure I made the right choices. I think we probably all have our doubts, but as I often told them, I made the right choices FOR THAT DAY, and had to live with my choices and their judgment if I made the right choices for them. It is such a relief when one or the other tells me "what a great childhood they had", or wish that their children had the same neighborhood or home to grow up in. For me, nothing makes me happier than to know my children approve of the way we raised them. Times change, what was right at that time, for those children, for me, for us, doesn't necessarily mean it is right today or for anyone else. We have to know our kids, know what each needs, make the decision what is best and just do it.

My goodness, what fascinating and interesting posts, I have never seen such variety and enthusiasm!

Robby's post was interesting in that he spoke of almost part of the brain turning off, that's scary, but we can see several testimonies to children turning out well, and I nearly fell OVER about Ruth Ann's!! THAT is spooky, I wonder if anything has been studied on all this Mozart for the womb? and the effect on young children??

I just heard the result of several studies on music and the brain for NPR.

One was a long interview on the effect of music on the different parts of the brain? They wired up all these musicians and explained all the different areas of the brain and how they saw them engaged, and had the musicians first listen then to, then read and practice, then perform and they tested the parts of the brain which were used.

They found different parts of the brain were used for performance than in listening to music or practicing, and another study found that the younger the child was who began to learn music then the more developed certain areas of the brain are, including mathematical ability. I found these reports, tho boring, fascinating, and weonder if there may be something TO an Einstein video or tape? And if there IS something to it, what is regular television doing to our children, what part or parts of the brains it IT developing?

ginny

Tisie, I understand because I have seen my grand daughter do her homework in front of television and still get straight A's. I think that a mother who is aware will see to it that too much of a good thing is as bad as not enough don't you think. Balance is the key.

There is a survey where it is mentioned that about 50% of families watch television more than 4 hours a day. Is that excessive or normal?

I can't go back to when my kids were small becaue it was different then. But when Television came around I tell you that the kids watched "les petits bonhommes" every day, but they also had a lot of activities outside.

What babies watch today is a totally different from back then.

Eloïse

This ARTICLE tells of an experiment indicating the effect of TV on 12-month old babies.

Robby

And ANOTHER ARTICLE this time explaining the visual development of 12-month old babies.

Robby

Robby, I agree that a 1 year old can understand and pick up on emotions. I can time/date what my daughter was doing because at 14 months we returned to the US from England. She talked, understood what people said to her and recognized what was going on in 8mm movies we took of her and things familiar to her. She loved music and would dance and clap when I turned on the record player or radio.

I had no clue what a baby could do, but followed advice from my English friends and started her on a little "potty" at a few months. When she was able to sit up in the pram at a few months, she refused to take anything from any other person, it had to pass throught my hands. I had somehow let her know not to.

By 6 months, when we went to another base for her check up, I put a diaper on her when we left the house at 7:00am and she was still dry when we came home at 1:00pm. I neglected to take her little potty but never did again. We didn't live on the base, so I only had English mothers to talk to about raising my baby. She was not at all unusual to them, but I didn't see that training or exposure to expecting more when my grand children came along.

I've been pretty opinionated on this subject so will lurk for a while. Just want to say that each baby is as individual as are adults, but boys and girls tend to progress at a different pace, at least, mine did. Don't you all think so? I don't think we have any young parents in here to influence, but most of us have watched our grandchildren and I know for myself, I was sure they would be ruined by the way spent their first few years....<grin>. I do remember my grandfather's funeral vividly, the week of my second birthday, so I have always expected my babies to understand what ever was going on around them.

All I can say is WOW I am learning so much in here.

For me as an adult I don't watch my tv much because of the commercials and don't think babies, young children should either as to me it is buy this buy that etc. such as medicine so how are we to keep them away from illegal drugs when there head is so full of buy this drug for this or that. They are also incouraged to buy a product if they can afford it or not as by using a credit card. We do not feed our babies adult food as they cannot handle it so why feed them tv while they are in the most importatant time of learning.

Now videos are a different matter as we can pick and choose what we want to feed our babies minds while in the so important learning stage so to me learning video's are a good thing if we pick the right ones, but that is another bowl so to speak.
Ginger for any new people what may be Observing and having to back to the top to see who is speaking.

OH yes I sure do like this header as I see the baby reaching out for something, I wonder what.

Ruth Ann you said: "Ginny, you spoke tosome of the things that have been interesting me about the way the unborn child is treated. In my most recent experience, my daughter-in-law had told me that her 8-year-old daughter would talk to the baby every night while she was pregnant."

I believe that the fetus hears sounds and that plays a part later in the child's development. How many expectant mothers make their partner listen to a baby's heartbeat and I have seen my sons in law actually talk to their unborn child.

This LINK explains the effect sound has on an unborn child.

Eloïse

Here is an interesting LINK about the difference between infant's hearing compared to how he/she perceives sound later on. It says that while talking to a baby it is better to try to cut out other sounds as baby tends not to make a selection of a sound like mother talking to her/him when the television is on loud but hears all sounds at the same decibel level.

Eloïse

I never considered TV's effect on babies until I heard a granddaughter mention the TV in her daughter's room when the kid was about two. I thought about eye developement and wondered if the kid needed to be looking at things and handling things in three D rather than a flat TV. Even tiny babies, especially little girls, like faces on toys. I wouldn't want a baby to be looking at TV much, but not because of what he might be learning, but because of what he might not be learning. Kids are only awake a few hours a day need opportunities to see, listen, reach for and touch, then later taste and manipulate. They need to interact with real people. By the age of 7 months or so, they should be able to tell friendly from unfriendly faces and strangers from close friends and family. Personally, I believe they need to deveope their own ability to imagine and play. I think I remember kids as young as two months cooing and reaching for toys with faces and three month old babies laughing out loud in delight when they were able to manipulate something in a surprising way.

If I had babies around today, I would sure let them watch some good kid's TV IN THE FRONT ROOM, and listen to as much good music as I do, but I would keep their own space as a haven for their own unsupervised play with toys which allow learning and creativity. TV is so dastardly passive.

My daughter allowed videos when the children were babies. One I remember was baby songs. This got the American parents award for childrens videos the year it was brought out. Baby songs is interactive and teaches kids about things like sharing toys, that mummy will always come back when she leaves baby with the babysitter. I thought it was delightful. Grace still loves it and we have sat together many times and watched it together singing along. Mummy comes back - she always comes back- was a great comfort to Grace who was a real cling on baby and even now the only places she will stay comfortably is at her preschool or with me.

I think TV can be very educational if the programs are monitored and there is plenty of interaction from the parents while viewing.

Carolyn

Benjamin, I LOVE what you just said. It makes so much sense. To a baby, everything is a learning experience and he/she only has the immediate surroundings for learning as they store up information a mile a minute. Even video and television can have positive affects on them. As you say, watching is too passive.

I just watched two kids programs, one was Teletubbies for very young babies, the other Dragon Tales for kids a bit older. They were both excellent. For a respite, a mother surely can't miss with those two if she wants to work.

Granted, the caregiver can't spend all her time entertaining her kids, she has work to do, whether some housework or something else.

The bad ones, I can think of several and we can talk about them too. There are definitely good programming and videos and very very bad ones. What about those which are not meant for babies and children and they are watching anyway?

Eloïse

Here is a FASCINATING ARTICLE from today's NY Times about infants and how they learn to communicate.

Robby

Robby thanks for that link to the article. I had first hand experience with signing baby. My first great grand daughter was born to my granddaughter who was studying to be a speech therapist at BYU. When the baby was six months old she was signing. When I first met her she was 7 months old and could ask for things, say hello, goodby and I love you with signing. Her next visit she was a year older and said many words while signing.

No one is deaf in the family, it was just that my granddaughter had been a signing expert since early highschool, and she loved teaching it to children. She had volunteered with a program in high-school several years and of course was studying related studies in College. I loved watching the baby ask for things by signing long before she could talk and when she learned to talk she signed as she spoke. Momma and baby communicated very early and very well. Leslie now has four children and I do not know if they still sign. (P.S. She did not finish her degree but intends too when all children are in school.)

Ginger, you are so right about commercials. During commercials, do you think that babies are interested in them? or do they switch off, or are they eye catching so a baby can relate to them enough to influence the parents into buying this and that product? I guess they are mainly targeted for mothers.

Carolyn, I tried to sit during the whole time when a kid's program was on, but I usually got up and did other things while the kids were busy watching. I wonder how many parents explain to a child or a baby what they are watching because the action is so fast, that the mother would have to press the 'hold' button to stop the show. I don't know if that is what takes place. I usually ask my grand'kids the meaning of what they are watching because most of the time I can't understand the jargon. Baby shows like Teletubbies are simple scenes without hard action, so it is quite safe.

Faith, how interesting about sign language for babies. And a fabulous way for them to communicate too since babies can't talk yet, but can use their hands more effectively. Sign language is one thing I would have liked to learn in life and when I watch people doing it, it seems so intriguing.

Eloïse

In studies done at Tufts University it has been found by Psychology professor, Dr. Donna Mumme, that 12 month old babies reacted and responded to positive and negative emotions on television. 10 month old and younger babies did not.

Source:

Psychological study

Study: Babies, TV. Tufts Journal

I don't know formal signing so never taught it to my kids, but we communicated quite well very early because babies, like most animals, do a lot of their own signing if an adult only pays attention. One form was mentioned earlier, I believe in an article ROBBY linked. Babies point by looking towards something (they want or are afraid of) just like adults often do. I was used to that sign because dogs use it so well. I probably asked a kid what they wanted just like I do my dogs, and expected to see them look and show me that way. Signing sounds like a natural extension of that idea. In fact, I am quite sure early humans did a lot of such signing long before spoken language developed.

I agree that such light action, friendly faced and sounding programs as Telatubbies may be fine for soothing entertainment for kids, but I would still rather give them objects with lots of different colors, textures, weights, etc. that they can manipulate and use for imaginary play. I would prefer a good CD player or tape deck for music. There is probably still lots of great listening music for kids, both that written for kids and all sorts of other stuff, from wind quintets to rag time. Kids do love the higher pitched instruments if I remember. I know I liked anything that wasn't deep and moody as a preschooler (no Wagner until I was old enough to feel dramatic and violent on my own.)

This discussion brings to mind a story I found delightful. One daughter had a three year old son when she suddenly was hunting a new job in a new town. She put him in an unlicensed day care temporarily for lack of other options. The young lady who had the kids handled TV and problem behavior by making trouble makers sit in front of the TV for a time. No matter how good the program, all the kids there thought of TV as punishment and the doing, making, learning activities with other kids as wonderful. I can't help thinking she had the right perspective. My four and I lived without a TV from the time the oldest two were about first and second grade on. I didn't buy a TV until after I retired - to get my ball games and weather reports. Of course, I watch more than that, including my favorite business channel and PBS.

You ask "Ginger, you are so right about commercials. During commercials, do you think that babies are interested in them?

Yes I do as the people developing the comercials know what they are doing and will do any thing to sell there product.

Do they switch off, or are they eye catching so a baby can relate to them enough to influence the parents into buying this and that product? I guess they are mainly targeted for mothers

To my way of thinking they are progaming the baby to be ready to buy whatever is sold on tv, Not just the product they are selling at the time. I do think it is the reason for the young of today thinking I want it NOW come hell or high water and many are finding the water got to deep will spend the rest of there lives paying it off or having to go bankcrupt and will learn the lesson the hard way as they will Not be able to get credit except for around 50 percent interest if they Really need it for emergency. For me at 70 years old and having to take money out of my IRA,that was highly advertised I think it is called an IRA, and that's is a sore spot for me as Why is the Goverment Making me take money out of My IRA because of my age before I want to. Where is my freedom in this even tho I was told that I would have to take out some money at the age of 70 and a half, I gambled because I did not think I would live this long and lost. I will go back to cable, Not that I could not afford it before but now I feel to spend before a possiable health problem comes along and it is grabbed by greed and leaves me broke any way.

The babies watching comercials reminds me of the George Orwell 1984 book. For those that do not remember or have never read it it says that you program the people from birth to death to keep them in there place.

Now for video's that maybe the way to go depending on the video and what is being taught.

Faith, I like the thought teaching babies to sign and any thing pertaining to learning, reading, writing, music, etc. Yes I do.

Now I ask you Eloïse are you sorry that you asked me. Smile.

"Balanced and Cautious" These words of Robert DeLuca seem to put it in a nutshell. I have no children so I can't say anything from personal experience but it does seem that the parents should definitely be involved in deciding what the baby is going to be staring at. I do wonder what is considered "junk." That seems to be a personal matter. In my travels I have come upon children at home alone with nothing but the Televisionas a Baby Sitter.

I just read that 70% of women work, many have young babies, children. I saw them go off to work in the morning rushing to get breakfast, dress up for work, quickly feed and dress the baby, get in the car, take baby to day care, and go to work. Come home around 5 or 6, get dinner going, quickly eat, do dishes, put clothes in the washer, bath the baby and get the kids to bed and flop down on the sofa exhausted.

Louise, most mothers work nowedays and they have so little time to just sit and watch a kiddie program you have no idea. Mothers today worked three times harder than I used to work with my 6 and I didn't work outside the house for 15 years, but I had time to go sliding in winter with them and play outdoors with them every day.

Mal, It's quite true that babies who can't sit up are not interested in television. But they are producing videos for them anyway and they get sold. I would be concerned that at that young age to start watching videos they would make them become addicted to it.

Eloïse

I realize that moms work very hard but it is still wron to leave very young children home alone!

Eloise my grands are not addicted to TV- the boys are very active outdoors and the girls who have the immune deficiency spend a lot of time doing art work. You cannot imagine how creative they are with egg cartons and cardboard. Their parents spend a lot of money on art materials for them as particularly in the winter they are so often ill and confined to the house. When the girls come to my place the first thing they ask me for is the art materials - yes Granny has a good supply for art work too. I buy reams of paper for them and anything else I can see. All my grands are restricted to suitable viewing and for short periods. If the girls are very ill and having trouble breathing a video relaxes them and they will lie on the sofa and watch something like Disneys Cinderella or the Nutcracker Suite -they both love classical music by the way which they were exposed to first from childrens videos and then my daughter bought CD's.

Carolyn

Odd that we are talking of babies learning from the time that they are born as this is what my home town people are doing for there children. I thought you might be interest so if you are it is just a click away Here: Babies

Thank you all for your super ideas and I am quoting here part of what I retained from your posts.

"When a little older, I always made sure to tell them which things were "make believe" and which were not." Ruth Ann

“But when TV takes over, no matter what's on, I feel it destroys something in the brain. I have a grandson who doesn't like to read because video games have become his life (he is 10).” Suzy

“Mom cannot devote all her time to the baby regardless 1879 - 1959 or 2004 and TV to me is a better toy than many..”Barbara

“They learned through all their senses and it seems very important to have all those large muscle groups used in "play" in-order to develop properly.” Faith

“He actually doesn't seem to have been hurt by all his TV watching. Successful father, computer engineer now.” Ann

”When a little older, I always made sure to tell them which things were "make believe" and which were not” Prancer.

“I was a "stay-at-home" wife/mother, so ran the house like it was my job.” Tissie

“They found different parts of the brain were used for performance than in listening to music or practicing” Ginny

“I don't think we have any young parents in here to influence, but most of us have watched our grandchildren and I know for myself, I was sure they would be ruined by the way spent their first few years....” Tissie

“video's are a good thing if we pick the right ones,” Ginger

“I would keep their own space as a haven for their own unsupervised play with toys which allow learning and creativity. TV is so dastardly passive.” Benjemin

“She used hand gestures taught to her by her mother. Or that she wanted more cereal by touching her fingertips together. Or ask for a ball, or her stuffed dog, or a book — all without saying a word. She used hand gestures taught to her by her mother.” Tisie

“In studies done at Tufts University it has been found by Psychology professor, Dr. Donna Mumme, that 12 month old babies reacted and responded to positive and negative emotions on television. 10 month old and younger babies did not.” Mal

“Yes I do as the people developing the commercials know what they are doing and will do any thing to sell there product.” Ginger

“I do wonder what is considered "junk." Louise

“All my grands are restricted to suitable viewing and for short periods.” Carolyn

In Robby’s practice, he has treated patients for many years and he sees the psychological side of a person's life with their past revealed and this way he can determine the significant factors that affected them. Here we have our own experiences as parents and grand parents.

I think that in this group, we have a very good sample of how television viewing has affected our children and grand children. We all used a balanced approach in letting our kids watch television keeping in mind that we had the responsibility to give the best chances in life for kids to develop their full potential and I believe as I have read the fabulous posts in this forum, our group could write a book on how to raise children.

The posts have been more than interesting, rather revealing as we have all gone through the same pangs about television viewing and because we can see the end product with our grown children as they are raising their own children, we can verify if our approach was good first hand in the way our children raise their own kids.

Videos and television is different today and I would like to know what you all think of TODAY’s content in television programming and the choice of videos for babies and children in general.

Eloïse

I've never seen the Einstein videos, but I understand that they're very, very good. Anything that has to do with music I approve of.

Of course, there were no TV and videos when I was little. Something that frightened me a lot was a Charlie Chan movie someone unwisely took me to. Fairy tales by the Brothers Grimm, which were read to me when I was scarcely out of the cradle, frightened me more, though. So did other fairy tales. Some of the books read to me were downright violent and cruel.

Mal

Here is a link to an interesting ARTICLE on the early development of a baby.

Eloïse

I think my daughter Nicky should write a book on how to raise children. The wonderful school reports always mentioning Brookes good behaviour, her compassion for others, her leadership, integrity etc says a lot for the way her mother has handled her. I watch my daughter with amazement - she is a Mum in a million. She has a lot to cope with too having 2 chronic illnesses herself and the girls have very compromised immune systems which means they are sick most of the time and usually she is lucky if she gets a fortnight of wellness in the children in 6mths of the year.

This ARTICLE IN 'BABIES IN TV LAND' Magazine By Chris Beam says that babies under 2 should not watch television AT ALL? the following is taken from that article.

In any given year, children watch 14,000 sexual references, and 8,000 murders.

1,000 studies link to growing amount of violence on TV and accrued aggression of children.

Long hours watching TV causes hearing impairment.

Eyes locked looking at the screen decreases side to side vision.

It breeds addiction and promotes Baby Couch Potatoes syndrome.

What's on the screen is as real to a baby as what's in the room.

What do you think of this?

Eloïse

Coming in late to this interesting discussion. It seems like most of you here agree that there are some benefits, but "a little will go a long way" and that parental supervision and participation are important. Robby, thanks for the article about babies communicating thru signs. I was really surprised to read that hearing babies of deaf parents start communicating and signing sooner than other babies. Fascinating.

Eloise -- Two of the statements above really struck me -- "Eyes locked looking at the screen decreases side to side vision." and "What's on the screen is as real to a baby as what's in the room". A friend who attends a Mult. Sclerosis exercise class tells me about the side to side eye exercises they do, I think to strengthen the muscles. Babies who focus on the TV won't move their eyes as much and won't develop those muscles either. If the TV is reality to baby, and i don't doubt that it is, it will continue to be so until baby and parents can communicate. How would you tell a one-year old that LaLa and friends aren't really there?

We never really had a permanent working TV until the youngest kid was about 8. The few we had temporarily never worked well, were b & w, and were all in Spanish, which the kids were learning, but there was never anything on anybody wanted to watch. They were too busy doing other stuff. We did get one working for the moon landing. As adults, none of my four are TV watchers and the two with children monitor their TV watching VERY CLOSELY. For them, TV is practically non-existent.

How many 12 month old babies have you known who sit still long enough to watch a video? The ones I've known were moving, moving, moving all the time unless they were asleep.

Mal

Everything that goes into the brain remains there in some form. Hypnosis had shown that repeatedly to be so -- sometimes being able to be brought out in some form, sometimes not, but always there. Time and time again middle-aged and elderly people show behavior which takes place due to the influence of some childhood event.
The question arises, then (based on Eloise's article), should we be concerned about infants of any age watching violence on TV whether they understand the details or not?

Robby

As responsible adults, I think we have a duty to protect the young from danger. In my opinion, viewing violence would fall into the catagory of danger to their minds.

Unfortunately, we can only control what is allowed in our own homes. As babies or toddlers, I would hope they never have to experience violence in any form, as I know, personally, that it can have an affect for a lifetime.

When my Grandchildren come to my home, often with videos in their "visiting bag", I know the parents expected this to keep them from "bothering Grandma". However, they were never a bother and it was always fun time. They never once even asked to have the videos played for them; preferring to "help" Grandma with everything going on in the house. When they arrived, sometimes pale and wan looking from routines imposed upon them from the current lifestyles, after a few days of total freedom (not spoiling), laughing, singing, and enjoying time that I had to care for them, I would see them leave with glowing cheeks and shining eyes. I think that does children more good than watching any type of media.

Surely they need to be children! Serious life comes soon enough and I would hope, in my small way, that I have created some happy memories for them.

This is just my opinion; not an educated statement.

PRANCER - Anyone who has raised kids, worked with kids, or even taken care of kids for awhile, here or there, is educated if they are observant. Maybe we should award GP degrees.

How can babies 12 months old possibly know what violence is? They're too young to have been taught about it, aren't they? It seems to me that what they'd perceive is a mass of color and noise. If the baby is frightened by the noise, he or she will cry; the parent will run in and pick the baby up and turn the TV off.

According to a respected psychologist at Tufts, babies under the age of 12 months don't react to emotions on TV. Isn't it possible that they are more affected by what's going on when we strap them in a grocery cart seat and push them around a crowded supermarket, or push them in a stroller on a busy street full of noise from car horns and screeching brakes? Or drop some pans in the kitchen and get angry and react with a loud, explosive vocal sound?

Mal

PRANCER, the gap between what we had our kids watch on TV and what today's kids watch is so wide, so I am watching kids programs now to notice the difference between soft programming and hard ones where you see all the violence and see if I can separate them. Also commercials during them. I will come back later on that.

MAL, 12 yr olds are so active and even when the TV is on, but is that true for all of them? I don't know. They do turn off when there is only talking, and if action takes place, they stop and watch i noticed.

ROBBY, How fascinating what you say on hypnotism, I only guessed that everything that comes in the brain stays there, so what kids watch on the screen remains in the memory? No wonder we try to erase traumatic events from memory.

Come to think of it, in order to make a program popular and interesting for the viewers, producers make them as REAL as possible. Is a child capable of making the difference between what is REAL and what is MAKE BELIEVE? and at what age does she/he do that? Is it a question of intelligence or of logic?

BENJAMIN, HaHaHa a grand'parent degree, yes.

Eloïse

ELOISE, I said 12 month old babies, not 12 year old kids. Are we talking about the reaction of babies to TV here or the reaction of older children?

Mal

OH! yes Mal, I notice my error, sorry, I meant 12 months though, we ARE talking about babies, and when babies get a little older and the affect TV has on children in general.

PEDLN, I watched the whole Teletubbies yesterday and I found it so cute and cuddly. I think that babies can relate to that for a bit till they look for something more active to do like MAL said.

What I notice however is that kids in general spend an average of 4 hours a day watching the tube and starting that early in life increases the dependency, not for all kids, but for a vast majority.

Click on this LINK that is something I was not aware of!

Eloïse

There appear to be some here who think television can cause permanent damage to young viewers. Well, I tell you what. TV ain't goin' away.

This morning I watched some children's programming on public TV. Imagining I was a very young child, what I saw and heard were pretty colors, friendly voices and happy music. If the child doesn't know how to change the channel and it's set to programming like this, what damage can it do to young minds? (I'm disregarding the article from India. I need more proof.)

My TV sits on a small chest, kitty-corner between two windows and sliding glass doors. While I was watching I was distracted by squirrels scampering around on the fence of my deck on the right and by an eagle soaring in the sky which I saw through the glass doors on my left. A small child would be attracted by the motion seen through the glass and turn his or her head away from the TV screen.

I think news programs are among the most violent, disturbing shows on TV.

Mal

I dont know about babies because we didnt watch too much TV when our three youngest were small and none when our oldest was small. Our youngest son was hyperactive and we found unplugging the TV very, very helpful. It seems the rapid movement agitated him. He was so different when there was no TV...and we all benefitted from the family games we played . We always had a jig saw puzzle set up in the winter and when we spent two weeks at the shore each year ...the same thing and enjoyed many game activities as a family...something I find hard to do with my grandchildren...I think the Miss Norma ( where we lived) where a school teacher had a very good program was good.

I think minds record everything from birth on ...then process it..NO I have no proof of same but watching my children respond to TV and other experiences...also in my own life I can remember back to when I was 2 1/2 and my brother was born.

I believe violent programs affect us all. anna

Eloïse, I too am a late joiner in this discussion, but I am caught up on the posts, all of them very valuable.

The last link in your post # 482 interested me, especially the penultimate paragraph. However, I do wonder how the Indian author(s) of this article know that in California and Arizona parents with children under 13 years of age are not allowed to buy new televisions. Can this be true ? Is this assertion a fact ? I for one seriosly doubt that a TV salesman or saleswoman in CA or AZ would ask a potential buyer about the ages of his/her children. Would one of the discussion participants here have the answer ?

No, TV will not go away - the global business is far too lucrative, for one thing. But I do agree with the thoughts of PRANCER and ANNA.

And yes, if the unborn is able to recall external tactile and oral communication while in utero, why and how can a baby of 12 months NOT retain a visual memory, whether fully understood or not ?

Even if that cannot be proven with absolute scientific certainty, how can we possibly reject out of hand even the possibility ? Robby's comments are extremely helpful in this regard. And yes again, I believe violence can be 'absorbed' from watching violent acts, whether in real life (domestic abuse) or on TV, by children and adults alike. Some years ago there was much talk of the "subliminal messages" to which adults are subjected routinely on a daily basis via radio and TV, but they haven't been mentioned much since, as far as I know.

An aside : The virtues of the internet have been extolled here in earlier posts, and deservedly so. The broad dissemination of knowledge is indeed gratifying and nothing short of a small iracle.

Even so, and without the slighest intention of being dispuatious, I would like to repeat what I've said elsewhere before : not every piece of information found in thousands of posted references is necessarily accurate in every last detail. In fact, I have come across quite a few erroroneous statements of facts and varying dates given for the same historical events.

P.S. There IS violence in cartoons, I know from recent experiences during visits from my grandson.

I do so admire the parents that can teach their children at home from birth to when they have to give them up to the world we live in as most have been taught so well how to how to make a difference in the world we live in and hopefully how to cope in the real world.

On the positive side of TV watching. My DIL the ex police officer lets Nikolas have some TV time. He mainly watches educational programs. His favorite is Animal Planet. He can tell me some amazing facts about animals and insects. He has been fascinated by the natural world from the time he could toddle. He is three now. He often phones me to tell me about some insect he has found outside. The other day he phoned to tell me there was Monarch butterflies in the garden. He wants to be an animal doctor when he grows up. His mother does not allow any unsupervised watching and also in outdoor play guns are totally forbidden or any other toys for fighting. The other day we were watching a wild life program when a lion was attacking a zebra. I went to turn the TV off but he told me killing was natural in the animal world and the lions had to have food. Who am I to argue with that logic.

Carolyn

This ARTICLE from this morning's NY Times relates to my previous posting where I indicated that while information that goes into the brain may be suppressed, it is nevertheless still there.

Robby

I think MAL mentioned music on the TV a little back a few posts. I am a musician, so maybe music on TV or in a movie has always strongly effected me more than average. But I have a strong feeling that babies may also be effected by moods established by the background music as much or more than by the actual picture content. Remember the old violent cartoons like Road Runner? The music is essentially active, full of humor - never moody or frightening for more than a few seconds. Scary scenes in Bambi or Snow White were far worse. The background music was designed to be frightening and it was. (At the age of two, I hid under the movie seats during parts of Snow White - much too scary for a little kid - nightmare stuff.)

My point is, music may be the cue to babies as to whether they should be afraid or not, much as the tone of a parent's voice might. It would be interesting to do some research showing different scenes with different background music to babies, then evaluating their reactions. For instance, happy scenes with happy music, happy scenes with scary or violent music, violent scenes with happy music, and violent scenes with the normal scary, violent music. By the way, scary music always disturbs me more than active, violent music.

This line of thinking makes me start to wonder if the general violent nature of much of popular music for the last several years could be having an effect on very young children much greater than the actual TV content they watch. If Mozart music improves scores on tests a little, then what does heavy metal do? I don't have answers, only questions.

CAROLYN, there is no doubt about the positive aspects of TV.

Even so I'd like to answer Robby's question in # 476 (I think it was) : yes, I believe we have reason to be concerned about the influence of TV programming on the minds of our children and grandchildren.

That was interesting for several reasons..first because I have always believed our minds store everything...I could never understand those that felt babies were not learning just because they lacked the skills to let us know ..they did let us know, I know mine did...but also that we can suppress things but they remain ..perhaps later to return due to stimulus or being reminded by something.

Benjamin I also like your suggestion concerning music....When my oldest was young and started to listen to acid rock I could only stand it for about 15 minutes and by that time I found myself full of anger and hate, not at her but the music ...So I would tell her she could not listen any longer and also told her I felt the music affected her behavior...ie made her disrespectful and full of anger herself. We had a large collection of "GOOD MUSIC" And started to play it all the time...It was great for me to hear while I was about the house all day and helped to make my chores easier and made all of us happier, also those that had lyric would start me singng or humming, maybe do a little dance step..I also feel her dance lessons contributed to her appreciation of good music..and music lessons helped all the children as well.It was a habit I continued all during the their childhood years. They all appreciate good music ...and by that I mean happy music...that doesnt necessarily mean they dont appreciate other music but as adults they are cheerful most of the time and positive ....

And like you the music that accompanies movie scenes ( well it used to now that I am so hearing impaired I am no longer affected by music much to my regret) would make me fearful.. I would try to sink down into my seat, close my eyes, even cover them with my hands and felt my heart beat...yes it accompanied scenes that were usually scary...BTW when I was growing up except for radio the only music I had access to was from the windup victrola ...and none of that was scary...as a family we often went to concerts and and loved the music of that day...and didnt the music on "I Love a Mystery" and other shows help us to understand it was scary?

I also hate to watch on TV the motions that accompany a lot of "music" they are more than just suggestive they are not attractive and really quite scary since the movements make the singers and dancers look disjointed.. if I were a small child I would think they would be disturbing....just my opinion....anna

Traude: “not every piece of information found in thousands of posted references is necessarily accurate in every last detail.”

In the article written in India, where computer science is very up to date, they can do a large sample in their population considering their numbers, one billion and I have to respect their findings, BUT to mention what is done in America is unwise as they can’t make a large sample there, but in India I believe they have a point.

Mal, I think TV is here to stay too and it is wonderful on many counts, the point is not to just chuck it, but to make proper use of this wonderful medium without letting others take decisions for us, through advertising. What is good for us should be left for us to decide, not the advertisers. Especially how to raise children and what we think is good for them.

Carolyn, “He mainly watches educational programs. His favorite is Animal Planet”. I remember when my grandchildren were still babies and their mother was at home to supervise everything they did. Isabelle was very strict then. Now though, as she works full time, it is much harder to enforce directives. What’s more, the parents are in the television business.

Robby, this brain of ours has the capacity of millions of computers and to think that we only use a small part of it and the rest is WASTED ?

Anna, when I was pregnant, I put on the music I loved in the classics, nothing else. My children in their teens likes the Beetles, and some Rock which was coming out but it is the volume that bothered me most and when I came home I would not allow music to be on loud.

Benjamin, “Remember the old violent cartoons like Road Runner” Yes, I can still hear the music right now and want to laugh. You mentioned Snow White, it WAS very violent and cruel and it was one of the first movies I ever saw. When I saw Fantasia for the first time, I went home in a trance with Bach’s Toccata et Fugue and thought it was the most beautiful music I ever heard, I still love that movie, what a wonderful man Walt Disney was. He let kids be kids and didn’t rob them of their innocence. If he was alive today, I wonder what he would think of what they do under his name.

Is television robbing children of their innocence?

Eloïse

I agree that music can have an effect on emotions. Some people don't even hear movie background music unless it's a song played on the radio.

Who are we to say what's "good" music and what isn't? I've been a musician most of my life and have played and listened to numerous different kinds of music, including Rock and Roll. Though I had some trouble at first understanding the music of my kids' era (their ages range from 52 to 43 ), I never would try to stop their listening to it. I listened to theirs, and they listened to mine. Their music is old hat by now, and I find some quite lovely.

Did you ever think what it was like for our parents and grandparents to listen to Boogie Woogie and see all those gyrating bodies in the movies and later on TV after their own romantic ballads and foxtrots and waltzes ?

Times change; music changes. If we stick in a 40's and 50's rut, we're missing something is my opinion. I know some terrific jazz groups and musicians today that most people my age never even heard of. It's a pity.

Mal

I know my sister burnt some CDs of heavy metal music as her kids went right peculiar and depressed when they had got heavily into what we call the head banging scene over here. That music has a terrible influence on kids - even the medical profession have noted this fact - suicides etc. You just need to listen to the lyrics to know its bad for kids. Heavy metal was banned in our house.

Malryn (Mal)

I agree with your thoughts about music. I listen to everything. I don't always like everything, but, some things just "grab you". I don't want to deprive myself of new music, as I believe that there will always be talent and I think the ears of the listener will decide for each one of us. I hope to be able to hear everything that comes along, whether or not I stick to listening to some of it.

Your comments on the effects of music are interesting. Benjamin, if I read your comments correctly, are you saying that we can be programmed to emotionally respond to music, depending on the scenes that accompanied it? I never saw the movie Clockwork Orange, but years ago I read about a person who said Beethoven's 9th symphony was forever ruined for him because of the way it was used in that movie. If that's true, you could play Brahms Lullaby during a violent or scary act and a child would no doubt become apprehensive when he/she heard that music.

I was looking for ROCK MUSIC FOR BABIES and I see here that music could have come before language as Archaeologists are suggesting. Scientists could have been bypassing the influence of music in prehistoric time to concentrate on other aspects of stone age life as some artifacts could have been glockenspiels. Well, well what do you know, we learn something every day.

Eloïse

That's a very interesting link, Eloise, we do learn something new every day, especially here on SeniorNet!

That's an incredible article in the heading, too, for as much as it says as what it does not say.

The very thought of a toddler crying mos-art! mos-art! mos-art! is amazing, and this is sobering, isn't it?

On a typical day, the study found, 59 percent of children 6 months to 2 years watch television, and 42 percent watch a videotape or a DVD. The median time they spend watching some form of media or another on the screen is slightly more than two hours.

59 percent of children 6 months to 2 years watch television, somebody needs to do a study, there's not much on during the day! Are they watching soaps?

Holy moley look at this, Baby has his own remote control! According to the study, 10 percent of the babies and toddlers from 6 months to 2 years have a television remote control designed for children.

And then there's the new Disney run Baby Einstein, series, reminds me of some of those old books from the late 60's Give Your Child a Superior Mind: And 32 percent have videos from the "Baby Einstein" series, created seven years ago as a way of exposing infants to poetry, language, music and art. "Baby Einstein" is now a Disney line that includes books, flashcards and puppets, along with DVD's and videotapes whose titles have expanded to include, among others, "Baby Shakespeare," "Baby Galileo" and "Baby Newton."

Baby Newton, maybe I need to watch that one I myself don't know squat about Newton hahaaha

They admit they've done no studies, yet I saw a frighteing study not too long about about response, it seems that with a newborn when he makes his first sounds, the rapidity with which the parent or caregiver responds to the baby is directly proportionate to his superiority in the early grades of school and his verbal ability. Babies who were ignored or simply not responded to or had quiet slower reacting parents were slower in verbal skills. Those sections of the brain did simply not develop and actually the moment was lost, in that developing brain. Later on the children can catch up, somewhat. Isn't that frightening?

No wonder people are rushing to buy Baby Einstein videos.

I wonder if they have ever studied the children they sometimes profile on TV who are all genuises? Reemmber the one family 60 Minutes had on, the kid entered college at 9 and there were a whole family of them, wonder if anybody thought to ask their mother what she did differently?

And I seem to recall at least one of those child prodigies was a fake. I saw a PBS show recently that claimed that Mozart was not a child prodigy (that's a bit of a stretch) in that his father was such a musician it came naturally and he had earlier training.

Do you think real intelligence or genius is inherited or related to how the child is raised? Nature or nurture?

ginny

ELOÏSE,

In answer to your #492 please let me make clear that I had no criticism in mind of the article from the Indian publication, in fact I find it very information.

The ONLY item in it I questioned is the statement about the fact that new TV cannot be sold to parents with children under 13 in California and Arizona. I wondered how they know that, I had never heard it, it is possible, though rather unlikely, and I would very much like to find out whether that is true. Could we ?

My remarks about the not-always-totally-accurate references I have found in net were a subsequent aside, clearly marked as such, and a follow-up on the unconditional praise for the net given in earlier posts in this folder. They had nothing to do with the article from the Indian journal.

I live in California as do a whole bunch of my children, grands, great grands also nieces and nephews with toddlers and infants. I have never heard of TV sales being restricted to any one of any age any place in the United States. I did not remember reading that. Oh well...perhaps it was some kind of printing error. Faith

Traude, I doubted that also. Thanks Faith.

Eloïse

My internet connection was out for 24 hours, but I was mentally here. Thank you all for being so faithful and for bringing such good, interesting ideas to this forum. We learn so much from each other and I would change my views at the drop of a hat on some issues if I heard a good argument brought to light that I had not considered before.

On another train of thought,

I have seen absolutely calm, sweet, respectful children turn into bad mouthed, aggressive and disrespectful children and teens over a short period of time after a lot of hours watching television. If we believe what producers claim that they are only a reflection of society, they are not looking for the best examples. A show that will generate profit has to strike a chord that will stimulate the imagination of viewers who have become desensitized to more and more violence.

Television tycoons target the mature audience when they produce film and the impact that their programming has on children does not seem to be their first concern. Granted, consultation might be used to produce babies’ videos like “Baby Einstein” but the long-term effect that such a learning tool has on the mind of babies is hard to determine, as proof of its benefits is needed over time. In the meantime profit is a giant motivator.

Some say that it is up to parents to monitor what their children can/should watch. Have you seen a parent who was able to constantly monitor TV watching? It is impossible because caregivers need to work to make a living and the children’s job is learning, whether in a classroom or playing and they will watch whatever is at their disposal. They don’t discriminate, they want to see everything and if it is violence, sex, crimes they will watch and they will remember as everything they see is fixed in the memory for use later if it is needed or if not needed is never used. What a child sees is an instruction manual.

Children’s programs are used for advertisement. A long time ago, ads were not permitted on children’s programs. After it was allowed, it seems to me that the quality of programming degenerated. Can someone recall that? Or was it only in Canada?

Eloïse

On what babies LEARN from watching TV and Videos and what they understand from it.

Eloïse

I heard it remarked often that "wise cracking" or "smart mouth" kids were what toddlers watch on TV and when they are able to mimic they do. I know my great grandchildren who are allowed to watch tv are more apt to have this smart alec talk than the ones from Idaho who'se parents don't allow TV except programs they chose and mostly these are also "approved by the LDS church". These 4 great grands of mine are very polite when speaking to adults yet they too, when out play in the yard will use the same speech patterns the California cousins do after they have been together a day or so. So they will mimic from tv alright but also from other children. None of my great grands allowed by their parents to use smart alec talk around me if my grands hear them.. Since I am not in their homes often I dont know what happens there, it is just the parents who tell me how things are and of course that is where I picked up the information re: Idaho kids. Faith

It is hard for me to understand how or why parents permit that kind of speech. It is disrespectful and I think shows a lack of education. And I dont think the schools do enough to promote good speech. We were NEVER allowed to use slang or sassy speech when we were growing up and when our children (4) were growing up neither were they..I am grateful my children are doing the same with my granchildren,..Of course the oldest is only 10 so that can change in the next few years.

We never used it in our home and when my sons were in school and I over heard them use language we never used I called the school and talked to the principal...and was informed ,yes she was sure they learned it at school ..and when I inquired as to why it was allowed I was told that the children heard it at home and it would be wrong to punish them for using the language..I asked if it wasnt the schools responsibilty to teach the children that certain words and phrases were not acceptable. Again the reasoning was they heard it at home and it would cause problems to tell them it wasnt appropiate...so I have no answer...unless adults inform their children and teach them it looks to me the schools arent going to do it for them.

And TV.movies, magazines etv arent going to help either. And I find that sad ...there was also a time when to use vulgar language was not acceptable in areas of employment, in polite society etc and that seems to have also disappeared. The lowest common denominator is seeking us and for the most part we seem to be embracing it...just my opinion...anna

I wonder how we can know whether videos for babies have any influence on them, considering what they will go through at different stages of their lives?

I think that every generation has a way of "flying in the face" of society. It is more in the open now, of course.

When my children were teens, they spouted off about "what so-and-so was allowed". My answer was always "not in my home". If I heard off colour words and they said, "listen around the schoolyard, Mother". My response to was "you won't see that word in the dictionary, will you?" I told them..."There are rules; you break them and they'll break you". Reasoning seemed to work better than preaching.

In high school, they tried going ahead with what they wanted to do, without permission. In this case, it was going in a car with an older friend. I said, "No, and where do you get off telling ME what you are going to do?" They responded with a surprising reason. "We have learned in school that you don't ASK your parents; you TELL them what you are going to do".

My response....?? "NOT in my house". I knew they were testing. Whether this was any of the reason that I didn't have any trouble with them, I have no way of knowing for sure. The Grands are fine (around me, at least), but I'm sure they are exposed to a lot worse than even my teens were, and at a much earlier age.

Will video-watching babies grow up to go through the same stage?

I have never in my life seen a 12 month old baby "glued" to TV. Before my babies could walk they sat in a kind of bouncy little chair. They put their feet on the floor and bounced and bounced when they were "watching" TV.

Smaller than that, they were in a playpen crawling around or trying to pull themselves up. Once in a while they'd turn and look at TV. They were much more interested in what their siblings and I were doing, or they were looking out the window.

We're showing our age. Kid don't act like David Copperfield any more, and they didn't in my time, either.

I don't even remember what I did when mine said words I didn't think they should use -- mostly because of what other people would think. My children felt much freer with me than they did with their father. I think that's because of the way I acted with him. He was "The Lord and Master", don't you know.

At any rate, they've grown up all right, TV or no TV, respectable language or not respectable language. So has the one grandson who's close enough in distance for me to know. So have I ! And there was plenty of "helling" and "damning" in the house where I grew up. My kids and grandson respect me and other people. (Even if they do use a naughty four letter word once in a while!)

Mal

You may be right, Mal, when you say we are "showing our age." There may be a generation gap here. Those of us "of a certain age" may be remembering "how it was then." My infants didn't watch TV because there was no TV (at least in our house) at that time. Later on when they were of "Davey Crockett" or "Howdy Doody" age, I was firm about their having to meet their chores or homework before watching TV. For a while I found it necessary to remove a couple of tubes from the back (TV had tubes then!) when they were trying to sneak in programs before chores.
But times were different then. Parents are different. Schools are different. Societal mores are different. I don't think I was the only "firm" parent then. All the parents I knew were the same.
Not so now. ALAS! At least from my older generation point of view.

Robby

ROBBY, my kids never watched TV until their homework was done, either. Well, in my house the television set was seldom turned on until after we ate dinner. Except for rare occasions like the Rose Parade ( ! ), my TV never is on until 7 or 8 p.m. today. The kids didn't mind. They all went up to their rooms and listened to music while they studied. That's something I have never been able to do. I think it's because I'm a musician and listen to music as one. Analytically, I guess.

When the kids were little, they watched Captain Kangaroo and a couple other morning shows on weekends. Orange juice and Cheerios on a tray accompanied by Captain Kangaroo -- it was a special party time. In my house, music on the radio or recordings of music were on all the time. That was no party for the kids; it was their way of life.

Mal

We had no TV for five years while the kids were doing outside exams. It did get them studying and we would hire a video player on Saturdays and have a movie night. The kids really enjoyed that. We talked a lot more as a family without TV and played board games etc and the kids embarked on some very creative paper mache work and stuff like that to entertain themselves.

I love that you and your family enjoyed word games etc...it was what we did with our family...I can laugh now when I remember those days...whenever I think of a day I could remember for eternity is it a day when we lived in Tennessee...an 13" snow stopped everthing...the base was closed due to snow and my husband stayed home. Schools were closed and shops as well. From early morning until we all retired for the night it was in my mind a perfect day. I fed the birds at the dining room window sill and we watched the cardinals etc feed while we enjoyed a big breakfast. Dressed for the weather we all went outdoors and enjoyed the snow...the dog was beside herself to have us with her in the snow. We sledded and my husband put the small children on the sled and we walked to the airport ( which was near and closed to air line traffic) had hot cocoa and walked back home. We had hot soup, ate popcorn and played board games...later in the evening when we were all ready for bed we sat in front of the fire and placed chestnuts on the circular cement heath and when they popped we let them cool and ate them ....conversation flowed like a river as we listened to each other ...I cant remember what we talked about I only know we laughed a lot and contentment swelled in my heart..it was without a doubt the best day in my whole life. We felt separated from the world and wrapped in a kind of love that most only dream about. I appreciate watching good movies on TV with closed captions..I appreciate my computer that allows me to "hear" conversations via the posts here. I am blessed my children grew to be kind, caring and loving to each other and to thier children and have for now ...since they havent entered their teens I say for now...have raised their children to be the same way. Sometimes when they leave I find little notes that say I love you Nana...I keep baskets of books, paper scissors, crayons and all sorts of things for them to use when they come here. We never need the TV We have played card games...They love using my magnifying glasses to see things with or watch the birds at the feeder with my binoculars...and the older ones are now digging out the monoply and clue games when they are here...at Christmas though I have to say I felt sad when my just 3 year old grandson wanted to know if he could play with my "puter"...I am hoping he will join the others in interacting with his cousins and when they come to Nana;s it will be a special time for them they will remember ...anna

I could tell you about the many, many board games, card games, educational games, painting sessions, cooking sessions, speak foreign language sessions, music sessions, write stories and plays sessions, etc., there were for my kids and me. When their father wasn't travelling he had them out building fieldstone steps up to the house, sawing down trees, building split rail fences and exploring the miles of woods behind the house. When they came in, he taught them math, chemistry and physics. On their own, they went down our steep over 300 foot driveway in a toboggan and went skating on the nearby pond and got themselves jobs. I might add here that all three experimented with drugs, just as their peers in that wealthy area did in the late 60's and early 70's.

I could tell you all these things, but never, ever were my kids played with as much or receive the attention that my grandson here in NC did from babyhood on. I thought his parents carried it to an extreme and wonder now how this soon-to-be-19-years-old young man will react if he ever, ever has some hard knocks in life.

Mal

Robby and Mal, you are so right -- it's a different age, kids are different, parents are different, society is different. One big change I've seen between my kids and grandkids is playpens. My kids were playpen kids and so were my friends' kids. How else could you get to the basement laundry or iron, etc. My daughter and DIL never had 'em, never wanted 'em. My daughter ascribed to Penelope Leach, who literally said, "put your baby on in the morning and wear him/her all day." Or they would lie and play on their little sheepskins. I don't know how they got anything done. Course, dads do a lot more around the house and with the kids, than used to be the norm.

PRANCER: “I think that every generation has a way of "flying in the face" of society. It is more in the open now, of course.” Some kids can override hard knocks and others can’t without going bonkers!!!!. I wonder why and it does not seem to be because they didn’t have love or attention when they were little. “Not in my house” is what I used to say to my kids after their father died leaving me alone to raise 6 very strong willed teenagers.

ROBBY, There may be a generation gap here. Those of us "of a certain age" may be remembering, "how it was then." We are still able to teach the young generation. They perhaps don’t want to make all the sacrifices that we were willing to make in order to do the right thing because they were so spoilt, but they do remember how they were raised and my kids raise their children the way they were raised. Even what I think has no more value sometimes, not always though. For the most part, I agree with what they do. My 10 grand children are wonderful, but I am prejudiced.

MAL: “When the kids were little, they watched Captain Kangaroo and a couple other morning shows on weekends.” I have to laugh because in Quebec we had the same programs, in addition to French programs. That is how my children learned English, with television.

ANNAFAIR: “.an 13" snow stopped everything...the base was closed due to snow and my husband stayed home. Schools were closed and shops as well.” When we had the terrible freezing storm that stopped the supply of electricity people all helped each other. It was like in a war zone. So scary.

MAL: “I thought his parents carried it to an extreme and wonder now how this soon-to-be-19-years-old young man will react if he ever, ever has some hard knocks in life.” By what you say, I think that he would have an very good capacity to overcome hard knocks, as he was loved. All you need is love, the song says.

Eloïse

PEDLYN - I hadn't even considered we, or little kids, could be programmed to react badly to good music by violent programs. I was wondering if a kid could think violence was good if the music was pleasant. I guess I always react to the music more than the movie/program. I was thinking more of tots being upset emotionally (frightened or encouraged to feel violent) by the music on TV.

PRANCER - I grew up thinking no bad words were in the dictionary, too. Sometime in the '70s, my mother (an ex-English teacher,) sent my kids an American Heritage Dictionary one Xmas. She would have had a conniption fit if she had been around that day. The kids were flipping through and found a swear word. They instantly began looking up all the naughty words they could think of. I never would have known what they were up to, except one of them asked me what "vulgar" was, because that word was right after all the ones they were looking up. So I guess it depends on the dictionary anymore.

Sure, ELOISE, but what if his parents aren't around for him to run home to, or there to help him get out of a mess? I'm talking about independence here.

Mal

I wanted my kids to become very independent and I gave them responsibilities early. Still some experimentation happened. They were teens in the 60's and 70's and those years were scary. I used to pray a lot. I had learned that the character of a child is formed and set by the time they are about 6 and I was hoping that the lessons they learned in those formative years would surface when hard choices had to be made.

What parents have to face today is not the type of television programs our kids enjoyed. It is all too different now.

School age kids are alone a lot as mothers work. Single mothers of young children I think make up for 50% or more of the women's work force.

The quality of programs cannot be enforced as parents feel that a child is better at home watching television than out on the street getting into mischief.

Parents believe that it is better to let children decide for themselves how long they want to watch TV.

Children want to be more in control of what is good for them and parents agree to give them more responsibility for their life.

Parents don't necessarily want to spend lots of time interacting with their kids as they are told that they should have 'time for themselves'. in other words time away from the house, the spouse and kids.

Parents are also hooked on television, how can they not transmit that dependency to their kids. Families are watching TV upward of 4 hours a DAY. What the parents watch, the children also watch and it is not baby stuff or kiddie things either.

Is this a craze and it will all pass?

Eloïse

Benjamin B. Lewis

Oh My Goodness!! I wonder what is in today's dictionaries? I have an older (1968 Webster Universal - 1748 pages) and have never updated. I'm glad you brought that up, because now I'm curious and MUST look! Thanks for that post.

Just yesterday I was having a phone conversation with my son who is in his 50's. He was talking about his need to be honest and have integrity regarding a particular situation. I asked:-"And who taught you that?"
"You did, Dad." It's wonderful to have a "child" come back decades later and reflect back your teachings.

Robby

It's good to hear Robby especially after decades.

At the time and without my husband's help my worst fear was that they would totally rebel and chuck all our recommendations. But in retrospect, I think that no matter how far children stray from their parents teachings, they never forget what they learned in childhood.

My son-in-law often gives guidence to his kids. Now at age 10 and 12, they watch what television has to offer and the parents don't seem to worry much how it will effect their future. But when they were babies and toddlers, television was not on at all until they were in bed.

Eloïse

Wasn't that wonderful, Robby, just think, the generations of tomorrow, asked that same question, may respond, well Dad you were great but I learned about honesty from Barney. ahahahahah

ginny

I was surprised at these numbers you read below and those I researched and they all concur. What we used to have at home in terms of watching TV is a totally different picture. Not too much, not too sophisticated and I think that we had the best of television when our children were young. Now, the colors are so bright and cheerful for a kid and I don't have the stats to speak about the content of all the videos and TV programs, but too much is too much as far as I am concerned. I have found in reading the studies that there is NO benefits in babies toddlers watching videos according to Pediatricians, children tend to read less, play less, speak later, exercise very little. What strikes me as strange is that babies have a set in their bedroom. What for?

People might wonder if this exposure to TV is at all beneficial to a small child. University psychology professor Karl Rosengren does not believe there are any benefits.

Of the surveyed parents of children ages zero to six, 43 percent of parents believe television helps a child's learning and 27 percent believe it hurts a child's learning, according to the Kaiser study.

In addition, 30 percent of children ages zero to three have a TV in their bedroom and 43 percent of children ages four to six have one in their bedroom.

"I as a parent would never have a TV in a child's bedroom," said Rosengren.

Kaiser's study also showed 56 percent to 77 percent of children between ages two and six watch television every day; however, only 24 percent to 36 percent of children in that age range know how to read.

"We don't have TVs and things like that for the kids at the Child Development Lab," said Brent McBride, director of the Child Development Lab.

The Kaiser study also showed that in addition to watching Arthur the aardvark or cartoons on TV, videos and DVDs are becoming more popular for younger children. Thirty percent of children ages zero to six have 20 to 49 videos/DVDs at home while only 24 percent of those children have 20-49 books at home.

What do you all think of this study?

Eloïse

Pre Schoolers AGGRESSION, ATTENTION PROBLEMS, OBESITY and other problems linked to overuse of videos, television.

Eloïse

Maybe writing this post will put me to sleep!

I have five grandchildren ranging in age from 27 to 4, and one on the way. None of them has a television set in his or her bedroom. Do yours?

Excessive use of anything is never a good idea. Which reminds me, I adore cheese crackers and have been eating too many Goldfish lately.

Mal

I can also see the disadvantages of adults having a TV in their bedroom -- but that is another subject!!

Robby

A TV in a child's room? No wonder parents are always in debt. The only reason I see why any parent would put a TV in a childs room is because some doctor (?) said all the colors might be stimulating. And I have never had a TV in my bedroom ... When my children were growing up we went against the trend of subscribing to cable. Since my children stayed home until they married...I know you think I was too good to them ...but that is not true and in the neighborhood I grew up in children did the same. Perhaps it is something in the Irish nature. In any case by the time they were out of high school, in college or working ...and sometimes all ...we subscribed to cable. I still laugh when we were watching this movie a sort of teen agers in Paris...and the female who was French ( the boys were adolescent Americans I think) was very nonchalant about her attire..My youngest son who was perhaps 23 got up to turn off the TV when a rather racy segment was on...said I shouldnt be watching ..and I said well I hope I know more about what is going on than you do!Of course they had seen this since all of their friends families were long time subscribers of cable.

My one sil says he can tell a senior...all we watch is the weather channel and discovery...

I wrote a letter for and to my grandchildren last Christmas describing the world when I was their age..No TV, no AC, no car, etc and I told them about all the games we played when I was their age..all active..now that they are all older (3-10) it is a joy to introduce them to the games. However they are active too, they swim,swim teams, play soccer,on hockey teams,and the oldest ones particpated in a program at William and Mary where they were introduced to Shakespeare and perform scenes from plays. Thank goodness. And none of them have any extra weight ...now we wont talk about their Nana...anna

They are also lucky to live near each other and as a family we dine together often...so they have cousins to interact with...by the way since there are so many and older now the children eat in the sunroom where the TV is and usually one parent will bring a childrens tape to watch...but they would rather make up thier own activities.. again I am grateful. Perhaps parents think they are helping the children with all the TV programs etc..but I think it is because they dont want to interact with the children...and take the easy way out...just thinking about the subject...

TV and Videos are often used to distract children when parents are busy. Grandparents tend to play with the children, sometimes for their own entertainment, but maybe to recapture some of the times they missed, (being too busy) when their own children were growing up. Unfortunately, not all young parents have Grandparents close enough to enjoy that.

I recall, when living across the country from our first Grandchild that she would refer to me as "Telephone Grandma", which differentated me from the "real" Grandma (on her Father's side) who lived near her. I used to feel sad about that at times, however, we are all together now; that is my reward.

Televisions in bedrooms?? Not for me. I fall asleep easily enough watching in the DAYTIME. Personally, I would not want a television in a child's bedroom.

I bet the day will come when everyone is wired to watch, do or choose (virtually) whatever suits them at whatever time. Science Fiction??? Who knows.

Last night, I caught something (maybe on the National Geographic channel ?) about a tribe in the Amazon Basin. The young boys roamed the woods and paddled the rivers with no adult supervision. They had a mixed age group with one younger boy shown learning from a 12-year-old. Many young children built fires and used machetties, with no appearant accidents. They also were free to watch and participate in the men's work, like hunting, making hammocks, etc.

I thought about our kids watching TV. Well, ours can learn more about a lot of different things, but how healthy and happy the young natives looked. The program didn't mention if the girls had as much freedom and chose to stay around camp with their mothers and aunts, so I don't know if freedom was a sexist thing or not. At least, all the adults looked pretty content and happy, rather than sick or war-like. I couldn't help but long for days past a little, when people farmed and kids could hang around helping and learning from their families. Sitting alone in front of a TV is lonely, even if all the people on the TV distract us from loneliness for awhile.

All of my nieces and nephews ( all teenagers) have TV's videos, stereo's and DVD players in their rooms. None of them excel at school except one and he does not get marks that really reflect his intelligence. They all seem very disrespectful to their parents. There has never been any censorship on their viewing. My kids never had a TV in their rooms. My grands have a TV and video in the rumpus rooms but they are not often to be seen in there - the boys prefer outdoor play and the girls are always playing imaginary games with their wardrobes of dress ups or making things with all the art supplies their parents provide. I love to listen in to the grands when they are using their imagination while playing.

Brooke and Grace would rather have a conversation with an adult than watch TV. Grace is three and loves to give her opinions to me. The conversation usually starts with "Do you know what Granny?" not very good English but she will then go on to tell me about something that has happened at home or at kindy or something she has learned. They really do love an adult to really listen to them. Grandparents have a lot more time to listen. I am glad I live near Brooke and Grace. I just love talking to them.

Carolyn

Well I heard from my daughter the worst yet. Her daughter and hubby have two children and when discussing buying a new car, a SUV they want one with TV for the children in the back set to keep them quiet while they travel!!!! I objected loudly and my grandmotherly daughter said, "Well those children are tied down in car seats for four hours at a time and need something." Boy, am I glad I am not raising a family now days. I had many experiences of traveling long trips across the country with toddlers and no car seats but now they can not do that. We also stopped for potty stops every two hours and sometimes more. With those plastic diapers and pull ups they (my great grandchildren) are just stuck there for as long as Pappy wants to drive. Whew. faith

Tv has certainly not improved a babies conception of Potty training I cannot believe how long the children of today are in nappies ( diapers) I am actually horrified! The kids don't seem to care either.

Carolyn

We sound like a bunch of old fuddy-duddies. We're saying the same things about younger generations that our parents and grandparents said about us. In spite of what they said, somehow we managed to raise our families to be respectable, responsible citizens with all the new technology that bombarded us in our time. What makes you think younger people aren't doing the same?

Don't we give our children and other younger people credit for any brains? Don't you think they're interested in their children's welfare in the same way we were?

The world isn't coming to an end just because we're not the ones predominantly running it any more.

Mal

With due respect, I don't think the cautionary concerns expressed here are exaggerated, nor do I think that our generation will be the last to fondly remember its "good old days".

This is as good a time as any to bring up one of the sharpest social critics of our time, the late Neil Postman, who cast a shrewd eye on contemporary culture and, in half a dozen books, revealed the best, and the worst, of our habits of discourse, tendencies in education, and our obsessions with technological novelties, among other topics.

I discovered him in 1987 on a visit to Switzerland, when my cousin couldn't stop talking about Postman's 1986 book Amusing Ourselves to Death : Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business , which I promptly bought. In his (sometimes biting) essays in this and subsequent books Postman fearlessly takes on a variety of cultural phenomena, including TV and its deleterious effects, language, the crisis in education, and more.

Written 18 years ago, "Amusing Ourselves to Death" is still relevant and thought-provoking. And so are later works like Disappearance of Childhood and End of Education : Redefining the Value of Schools. Postman goes further than other critics have in demonstrating that television represents "a hostile attack on literate culture." (He does offer solutions, however.)

We may disagree with him, but we should not simply dismiss him, and others like him, with the wave of a hand; too much is at stake. Parental vigilance is more essential than ever, IMHO. But given the continuing crisis in our schools, students' lack of respect for teachers, unacceptable (but often tolerated!) rudeness and foul language by even preschoolers (!), and the seeming ineducability of many students, and truancy, not to mention destructive societal behaviors - - it may already be too late.

I would like to express my sincere gratitude to ELOÏSE for leading this discussion and all the participants for their input.

I wholeheartedly agree Traude, One of my kids could be a real handful at times but I never had him use the language I hear my nieces and nephews use to their parents.

Carolyn

As most of you know, I was married to a scientist. I was close to research and technology for almost thirty years; still am, in a way.

My children were close to science and technology from the time they were babies. A calculator was brought into our house forty or more years ago. It cost $400.00 and wasn't much different from what it's possible to buy for very little money now. Not many people had them.

Years ago, my husband built our stereo system, basing it on one a teacher in our high school built in the 40's, but using more up-to-date technology. We had the latest technological gimmicks and gadgets in our home before most people ever heard of them.

All of my children love to read and have large libraries. So do I. They also have computers and know a great deal about their technology and use.

My grandchildren were introduced to computers in school. My university freshman grandson has a laptop computer -- so do all the other members of his class. It's a university requirement.

What these kids and their peers know from what they read and are taught and use of computers astounds me. It's a far cry from when I was in school during the Good Old Days of the Depression when there was no money for schools to buy books and during World War II when there was a teacher shortage; classes contained up to 50 students of assorted intelligence and interest and consequential problems, and we had to share books.

Neil Postman dislikes technology. Many people do because they don't understand it and its use, or have made up their minds that it's evil in some way, and have closed their minds to it.

What I can't dismiss today are the technological advances that have been made which help us in so many different ways. I was discussing this on the phone with a very good friend of mine this past week. He's a mechanical engineer and partner in a medical instruments business. His life is full of the kind of technology that saves people's lives. We discussed many things, from what's happening on Mars, to the latest technological advance in the diagnosis and treatment of diabetes, to what we've been reading lately, to movies we've seen and the technology of special effects used in them, to how our kids and grandchildren are doing.

My point in my previous post is that we live in a different age from the one in which we grew up and lived as young adults. There's much to learn and appreciate in this new age. It's a shame to shut it out.

I also think younger people are very, very bright for the most part, and know a great deal more than we give them credit for. I can't blame kids' rudeness on television they watch or technology they use. If there is a fault, it lies in the hands of the parents. Most of the young parents I know are conscientious and research the very things we've talked about here and a great deal more on their computers.

As far as my own children are concerned I have never concerned myself with the way they raised their children. What they do in their lives is their decision and none of my business. They offer me the same kind of courtesy. Despite generation gaps, we communicate in a very good way and listen and learn from each other. The gaps are not as wide as they might be otherwise.

Mal

ANNA. I live above my daughter and her family since about 11 years. Before I needed an invitation to visit, now I just go down or they come up to me. The children consider me part of their family but we are not always one on top of the other, so to speak. We each live our own life. That is precious for all of us and we know how fortunate we are compared with most other families.

It’s so true PRANCER that we listen to our grandchildren more than the parents because we have more time. Sometimes, I watch TV with them as they are hypnotized by the silliness that goes on and I don’t know how on earth they can relate to that, but as MAL said, we are of another generation.

BENJAMIN pointed out something that used to make me envious. Living on a farm with lots of people, lots of land, animals and all that brought people together where they interacted constantly. They didn’t have the benefits of technology and their world was narrow and tight, whereas today, families are scattered far and wide and communication tends to break down more easily between members. But television opened up the world to us, widened our knowledge. Did we give up important elements for others? Which is best?

What we consider junk sometimes on TV, the kids think it’s great. I am sure we understand that there is a generation gap and we all know that technology has made giant steps in bringing civilization forward compared with the Romans we are studying right now in Story of Civilization.

Television in the car FAITH? I hope it doesn’t distract the driver. I wonder though how it affects those who are car sick. My youngest daughter had motion sickness. Today at 45 she is better when she flies, but she has to be at the wheel in the car.

I realize MAL that technology is good when it is used properly. The problem is how soon can children be introduced to it because we don’t know yet the effect it has on their young lives. We will only know that later when those babies grow up. Our own kids have the benefit of technology I have no problem with that. What I have problems with is babies and toddlers watching a screen for hours and hours instead of playing or interacting with others. Yes I believe parents are concerned about their children and they also transmit their passions to their kids whether it is TV or anything else.

What we are doing now is sharing our opinions and personal experiences and to me that is a scientific approach to a particular issue. Seniors’ long life is equal to scientific experimentation and I am glad that I was not the only one who thought that an excessive amount of television and video viewing can have negative affect of the future life of babies and very young children as they are learning at a fast clip. The information their young brain is overloaded with while they are watching the screen, is neglecting other areas in their development like language, reading and social skills, because television and videos is not interactive. Children need to have a response to their learning process. They need to watch the eyes of their mother to see if she/he is in agreement with a smile from the mother. The hardware cannot have that important element in the psychological development of a baby, the touch, smell, laugh and frown of the one he/she loves.

TRAUDE mentions the Disappearance of Childhood,

The nation-wide problems of discipline in schools comes from somewhere and even if specialists all blame television for the violence in kids, programs are still more and more violent and let’s say it, immoral. With television as soon as babies come out of their cradle, they are confronted with something they don’t see in their surroundings.

When they are so glued to television, they tend to think that IT is the real teacher, not the parents, or parent, or grand parent, or caregiver, or daycare worker. Children are robbed of their innocence as early as 4, 5, 6. They see killings, sex, verbal abuse, fights, truancy, drugs, foul language and they wonder which path to follow.

Eloïse

The advances man has made are admirable, even miraculous. Who would want to deny the fact ?

Even so I do not concede that anyone who has the concerns expressed here is a "fuddy-duddy", nor could the late Neil Postman or the eminent professor Allan Bloom be labeled with that disparaging term. In The Closing of the American Mind , Allan Bloom argues quite convincingly that the socio-political crisis of 20th century America is really an intellectual crisis. And I might add the malaise is global.

The effect of the entertainment industry, movies and TV especially, is far-ranging and powerful; what worries me are the (all too obvious) excesses in the exercise of such power (any power, really) and the gradual "Dumbing of America" (Paul Fussell). But this is not a debating club, and I would never dream of trying to convert anyone to my opinion- about anything. Now then, as the Italians say, "basta, basta" = enough already.

Last word, I am a very private person and have never meddled in the lives and affairs of my children. But I strongly believe in what I call 'gentle, unobtrusive guidance by example', which I will continue to provide. And if and when they ask for my help, I will be there.

That is what grieves me most...watching TV etc is not what makes childhood memorable. I still keep in touch with friends I knew when we were only 3 years old and attended the same Sunday School ...We met again when we entered first grade and kept in touch over the years,,,via mail and in person when we could. There are few of us left but about every six weeks I talk to them ....and send them a note and they do the same. What we remember are the fun times of our youth...

I am as I have grateful and happy for my grandchildren they all live near each other and the older ones have sleepovers sometimes at Nana's..they are all there at birthday parties etc...and of course several times a year at my home for a family dinner. Since my DIL-s work Nana makes all the food they enjoy but dont have time for...beans and ham and corn bread..real cakes and cookies etc...they ask for some of my recipes when they have to take something to a potluck ...

We live close but as you say We are not in each other's face. We dont interfere in each others lives, but we are there for each other. I baby sit when they need someone but most of the time they have excellent babysitters and I am the emergency one. I dont believe in telling adults what they should do ...and that includes my children. I is their life and as my youngest asked me what I thought when she was going to get married..and I said you make the decision .If it turns out wrong I will be there and if it succeeds you get all the glory.

While I applaud the new things that make life more convenient I also feel TV is not a companion, it is not someone to tell your secrets too, or ask advice about...it wont kiss your hurts or give you a hug and it is not there for you but you are there for it! So children should be encouraged to do other things and parents should be the encouragers... of course with a gentle assist from other family members....anna

I'm sorry, TRAUDE, if my use of the word "fuddy-duddy" offends you. You'll please note that I didn't say anyone here is a fuddy-duddy, I said, "We sound like a bunch of old fuddy-duddies." There is a difference. Right?

ELOISE, there's much technology we forget or don't think about. Do you have electricity in your house? Are any of your clocks electric? Do you have a refrigerator or an icebox? Are your floors cleaned with a vacuum cleaner or a broom? Is there a furnace for heating in your house? An air conditioner? Do you have a telephone? Cell phone? Radio? Electric or gas stove? An automobile? A washing machine? A dryer? A hair dryer? A microwave oven? There's a whole lot more. We are constantly surrounded by a sixty cycle hum from some electric appiances we have, and we don't hear it unless we tune into it. I'm a musician with a trained ear, and it's hard for me to tune it out. What does that high-pitched sound do to babies and their ears?

What I'm saying is that babies are exposed to technology the minute they're born. People who think something is harmful try to prevent their children from going near it. Since that's the case, it's up to the parent to decide whether or not television or any other part of technology is harmful to their children and take steps to keep them away from it. Almost all the young parents I know do this, as I've said before.

Mal

I think babies are introduced to technology long before they are born. (Monitors, scans, etc.) I think we should all use and enjoy it as much as we like and guide our children and granchildren as well as we can.

The young children that I see seem to be doing all right. They certainly seem smart and those that are close to their parents seem to advance rapidly in their knowledge and abilities.

My concern for myself and my family grows as I study this question further and please read this LINK and see why TV violence is a BIG problem in our society worth all our efforts in contacting all levels of government about.

Agressive behaviour -- Desensitization -- 40% of violent acts comitted by attractive characters -- 75% unpenalized and showed no remorse -- one half does not show the suffering of victims -- TV violence affects youngsters of all ages of both genders in all socio-economic levels, all levels of intelligence.

Eloïse

Yes Louise the research certainly shows that many aspects of TV and film do have adverse effects on children Child psychologists found that violent young offenders have been addicted to violent TV programs and Video games which feature killing as part of the game. Both my sons refuse to let their kids have play stations especially my DIL who is the ex police officer - actually due to go back to work next March again. She is vehemently against kids watching violence on TV or playing war games etc on play stations.

Yesterday on Oprah I saw a show called "How young is too young for sex". She interviewed a young Health Professional working with teens and pre teens. The audience were mostly young women and teens. This Social Worker claimed that oral sex is the rage now with kids as young as 11 and 12 and they do it in buses and cars anywhere. As kids are exposed to sex at a very young age on television and on the internet, kids claim that is is no worse than kissing. One girl in the audience said that she had sex when she was 11 with a boy of 13 and now at 15 she had had sex with 14 different boys. The Social Worker, applauded by the audience profusely, blamed television for youth's violence and low moral standards in our society.

Do you think that kids who are exposed to violence and sex since they were babies become desensitized and think that everything is OK because it seems OK by what they see on television?

Do you think that it is worse today that it was say 10, 15 years ago?

Do you think that the downward spiral is going to stop at one point and the government will step in?

Do you think that the government can do anything about it?

Eloïse

Eloise - I believe the Govt will do nothing about TV content. The Media and Advertising are big business. However recently our Censor banned a very bad PC Game which was very very violent. It must have been pretty bad because I have seen some very violent play station games which got past the censor.

As for sexual content - I do think kids experiment much earlier. This is the opposite to their emotional development. To me kids are emotionally less mature than we were at say 14 because they are in a lot of ways given far less responsibility than we were at the same age. They marry much later and begin work at an older age. Many children are still living at home in their late twenties. Perhaps having too much free time is part of the problem we are experiencing. There is more time to be glued to the TV. So many children do not work in the school holidays. Every one I knew had an after school job of some kind and holiday jobs. My kids all had holiday and after school jobs.

Carolyn

SOME THOUGHTS

1. Compared to our generation, I think kids physically mature very early due to excellent pre-natal care, good diet, etc. I looked like a 12 year old anemic boy until I was 18 years old!

2. Many parents are not at home.

3. There is not enough disgression (I have heard) used by parents regarding what is "seen & heard" either on TV or in "real life" in the home. If they don't see and hear things at home, they will somewhere. No control over that.

4. Kids don't have "the fear of ..." drilled into them, at least not like I did. They know there is no punishment because the law protects them. Good law for the abused child, but the a law abused by teens because of their age.

5. Peer groups are very important to teens. Fashions, ideas, language, music, etc. all play a part.

6. Can government intervene? A very big job to undertake. I couldn't being to imagine how that can be done.

I was told back in the '70's (talking to my own Daughter about pregnancy)) "Mother, we can go to a Clinc and take care of a problem like that and you would never even know!" I was dumbfounded! That was government run, I would imagine.

Recently I heard a story about a 15 year old girl who took her Mother's car keys - NO License - along with a friend and (not once, but twice) took a powerful vehicle onto a busy freeway. When asked "Why did you do that?" The answer she gave was "I needed to get somewhere and it's a nice car!" (Smug look) When the Mother was asked "Why would you leave keys accessible?" The answer: "I am a trusting soul. I don't hide anything from anyone". ( IMO, that is irresponsible.)

An elder in my family remarked "Kids that age are neither fish, foul nor human. You DON'T trust them to choose common sense!"

Is there an easy answer? Personally, I have none.

Because of our climate girls mature early here - I was 11. However my girls who were small for their age did not mature til they were 14 when they had a growth spurt. My boys were 18 and 19 before they had any interest in girls whatsoever. I was lucky!

Carolyn

I'm using PRANCER's comments as a guide here.

1. Yes, kids today have better diets and healthcare than they did in the 30's and 40's when I was a kid and mature early physically. They are also exposed to much more information through the media and their computers and what they're taught in school than we were, so mature early in other ways, too.

2. I was what is known as a latchkey child and was left on my own from age 11 on. That meant I was alone every afternoon after school and all day long in the summer except for Sunday. Many of my friends had fathers off fighting in WWII and mothers who worked. We all survived, and many of us did quite well. I suggest to you that many kids in the same circumstances today will do the same.

3. I learned about sex from kids at school and what I picked up from reading. I learned about how babies are born from an article in Life Magazine. No books were ever withheld from me when I was a child, and I read everything. I listened to the radio all the time, soap operas full of tragedy, woe, everything you could think of. Also listened to very adult plays. I heard news programs about the war that would frighten a grown man. I went to a movie once a week in high school with friends and saw newsreels there. What I saw was never monitored by the people who raised me.

4. I was reprimanded, especially if it appeared I wasn't doing superlative work in school, but I was never really punished or threatened with the wrath of God.

5. I'll say that peer groups have always influenced children of all ages.

6. How would you have the government intervene? The administration in the U.S. is trying to pass legislation about heterosexual marriage right now. Is this right? I think writing letters to producers of TV shows one thinks are harmful, and boycotting what their advertisers sell can be very effective things to do.

When my grandson here in NC was little I often watched him play video games. Some of them seemed violent to me, so I asked him how he felt about his character's "killing" and fighting with some of the characters, and would he ever do that in real life? He said, "Those people in the game are only make believe, Ami. No, of course, I'd never, ever kill anybody." He looked at me as if I were crazy even to suggest the idea.

My grandson did some tutoring during his high school vacations. He spent a lot of time studying for his next year's class. He was in honors classes and had a huge amount of homework all the time. He also came home from school for summer vacation loaded with books and assignments he was supposed to do over the summer. I understand that my grandson in Florida is required to do the same. When my NC grandson was in grade school and middle school, his schools had competitions about the number of books the children would read. He's competitive, so he read many, many books, as did his friends. His friends all worked at some job or other during summer vacation as well as studying ahead for their next year's class.

Mal

Faith, here is a video about SIGNING that I think is one big plus in favor of videos, and I am sure there are many out there that are worth mentioning. What I found good about this one is the interactive part. The baby and mother talk to each other by means of signing.

Eloïse

My little grandson bought back to NZ, when they came home, some wonderful English kids videos. Postman Pat, then there is one about a fireman. They are puppet characters but the themes are so nice and the language good- I love them myself. He has about 20 of these really nice videos.

Carolyn

Videos for exercises with young children.

Eloïse

This week's Time magazine (jan 19) has an article about a new TV series by Anne Wood, the creator of Teletubbies. The boohbahs were inspired by fish eggs, and the show is aimed at the 3 to 6 year age group who are movers. No dialogue. The show was a hit when first aired in Britain in April.

No dialogue in a video or TV program is not taking into account a babies understanding of language. My children all understood a lot of words at one year old. My daughter was using two or three words at ten months. My mother said I spoke sentences at 15mths. I don't think the programs without spoken language are the ones I would choose for my kids. I talked to my first child a lot right from birth and she was a competent speaker at 18mths. My son refused to speak and then one day at two years old he asked for a drink as my neighbour would not give him one until he asked for it. I have noticed that my grands apart from Nikolas did not speak as early as their parents did. Nikolas went to day care from 6mths as his mother did not resign from her job in the Police force until he was 2. I noticed that many of the kids who watch teletubbies do not speak distinctly- using the same distorted language as the teletubbies. I have never been a real fan of Teletubbies.

Teacher friends of mine often commented on the ability of my children to speak in sentences long before most children..and they always tested far above their age level in comprehension and vocabulary ...My husband and I never spoke baby talk to them..we never corrected thier speech when they were small since that would have been unkind but when they used a word like elephant as efelant we would laugh and say OH you mean elephant...and they would often say YES EFELANT >>in any case they were always placed in advance classes ..we read to them a lot. And they had lots of books from infancy on..my grandchildren are also very vocal and have carried on conversations from early on...we are a very vocal family including the in laws ..I think they benefit from being around verbal people ..who speak well ...so I too would not choose to allow children to watch "CUTESY" language programs...that seems to be dumbing down...in my opinion.

Technology is here to stay and I am grateful for its variety and uses ..but and that is a big but..we should not allow it to affect good language, good manners and morals. I see nothing wrong in teaching children from infancy on that certain words,behavior etc are simply not acceptable. We should not lower our expectations for them and always encourage them to be their best at whatever they do.

When boys were wearing their hair down to their shoulders..we allowed it as long as it was kept clean and as neat as possible. Some of our friends who raved and ranted against it have children who still wear their hair long..Our sons 40 and 38 long ago gave up that style ...as did their friends...same thing with parents who ranted when the boys wore earrings saying it was terrible. I told one father ..robbing a bank is terrible, wearing an earring is just a passing fancy and hurts no one...well it didnt pass but it still hurts no one..to me parents should always choose to make their stand on important issues..dishonesty , cruelty, etc...in my opinion .,.anna

anna - you're ever so right - hair will grow back (or fall out - whichever); piercings will close up if left alone. Tattoos tend to be pretty permanent. Jimmy Buffett calls Tattoos, Marriage, and Babies "permanent reminders of a temporary feeling". He's a great philosopher.

Carolyn, “No dialogue in a video or TV program is not taking into account a babies understanding of language.”

When I watch Teletubbies, I always wonder how babies relate to that, only a few minutes I guess. Or do they/can they make a difference that this is totally unreal. Do they feel that the characters is like a toy? Still they can’t touch it or play with the characters, or babble to them and get a RESPONSE?

ANNA, “When boys were wearing their hair down to their shoulders, we allowed it as long as it was kept clean and as neat as possible. Some of our friends who raved and ranted against it have children who still wear their hair long."

Now with boy’s hair style so short, I humbly admit that I like it a little longer and I said to my son-in-law lately that his hair was cut too short. Please don’t laugh. I used to say to my boys when the in thing was shoulder length hair that I would not take their picture. All my children are now so conservative it surprises me after they had been so unconservative when they were in their teens and twenties.

MARY “Tattoos, Marriage, and Babies "permanent reminders of a temporary feeling". That is a hoot. HaHHa.

I think that it is not doing children a favor by allowing them to keep their minds turned on what is unreal. I agree that they need to play make believe now and then, it is part of growing up, but to bombard them with fiction is very confusing for children.

Eloïse

Mary that is a funny quote...and Eloise teen age is the time to be unconservative!! I recall how I was at that age ...and my children were as well BUT again I believe parents should pick their stands very carefully...from childhood certain behaviour was just NOT acceptable..so when they did things I felt I could tolerate then I just went along with it..my boys never wore the earrings..although their father had his ears pierced and wore one in WWII when he crossed some meridian in the Pacific..you had a choice a tatoo or a pierced ear and he chose the ear. He would put it in once in awhile and the children would cringe..makes me laugh to think of it. We gave them as much freedom of choice as we could but drew a line on certain behavior ..and I have to say it worked. Perhaps we were lucky I dont know but keeping a good sense of humor about it helps.

When you praise your children for what they do right ..you can ask for corrections for what they do wrong more easily. I am laughing as I recall our youngest son who was given to having tantrums. When he did ( because he couldnt have his way ) I would just say I am sorry but if you want to be silly I refuse to watch ..and would just walk out of the room. Once though he was having a dilly of one and it was a day when everything went wrong for me as well. SO when he started I got down on the floor with him and kicked the floor, pounded my fists and wailed too. Then I looked at him ( he was watching me) and said You know what Arthur that really does help doesnt it? and he never had a tantrum again .,..I guess I took all the fun out or it..LOL

PS and my children are very conservative...and they think I am rather wild for a senior lady LOL rather delights me..LOL anna

WHY WATCHING TV MAKES YOU FAT.

The AAP report went on to present some moderate guidelines that pediatricians should recommend to parents:

1) Limit children's total media time (with entertainment media) to no more than 1 to 2 hours of quality programming per day.

2)Remove television sets from children's bedrooms.

3)Discourage television viewing for children younger than 2 years, and encourage more interactive activities that will promote proper brain development, such as talking, playing, singing, and reading together.

4)Monitor the shows children and adolescents are viewing. Most programs should be informational, educational, and nonviolent.

5)View television programs along with children, and discuss the content. Two recent surveys involving a total of nearly 1500 parents found that less than half of parents reported always watching television with their children.

6)Use controversial programming as a stepping-off point to initiate discussions about family values, violence, sex and sexuality, and drugs.

7)Use the videocassette recorder wisely to show or record high-quality, educational programming for children.

8)Support efforts to establish comprehensive media-education programs in schools.

9)Encourage alternative entertainment for children, including reading, athletics, hobbies, and creative play.

(Pediatrics. Volume 107, Number 2. February 2001, pp 423-426)

Television does not promote a healthy lifestyle. Junk food advertising can be viewed with regularity on TV. The whole "process" of watching television is not an active one. And most likely, the diet accompanying TV-watching is high in sugar, fat and calories.

Television is Doritos, Cheetos and Lucky Charms. Television is Coors, Budwieser and Miller Genuine Draft. Television is sitting in a sofa and not moving. And there's nothing jovial about McDonald's "Happy Meals."

Eloïse

Eloise, I love your definitions of television - mostly just fast food and empty calories!

Mary, do you think that watching television makes people fat? I also am guilty of bringing a breakfast tray and sit in front of television as I watch the news. I do have some extra weight too. So even if it has been minus 40 outside for the last few days, I should get dressed, go out anyway. Ah! shucks.

SOURCE POST #557

Eloïse

You could eat raw celery, raw carrots and radishes all day long and into the night in front of TV and not gain weight.

People should watch TV the way I do. My daughter and I watch Tracy Ullman reruns together every night at 7:30. You may not like her, but I think she's a very talented actress. It's also a nice little visiting time with my daughter. At 8:00 if there's a movie I want to see or something on Public TV or a concert, I watch it for a little over 90 minutes. After that I change the channel to Home and Garden TV or Food TV, turn the sound off and go back to my computer and write or build web pages or something. The picture on TV keeps me from being lonely at night. At midnight I might turn the sound back on when Emeril comes on, or I might not.

I do not watch TV news. A few years ago I was becoming very depressed and realized it was because I was watching too many news shows on TV and listening to too many on the radio, so I stopped. I read online newspapers. That's enough for me.

It's what's in food that makes people fat. If they eat food like celery that's nearly zero in calories, they won't get fat, wherever they eat it. But you knew that already, didn't you?

Mal

Watching TV doesn't make a person fat - it's what you do or don't do while watching that makes you fat. Most snack food (excluding the carrots, celery, fruit, that we ought to be eating) consists of those high-fat/high-sugar/high-salt/empty calorie things. We don't exercise while we're watching TV (unless we're on the treadmill or riding the exercise cycle). We usually watch TV at night, which means we're eating right before we go to bed, so all those calories don't have a chance to be burned off by our activities of daily living. Really, just the good old common sense thing. (And, of course, I'm just as guilty as the next person.) But these are certainly habits that we should try to discourage in young children - as they can become a lifetime pattern.

Thank you everyone for being such darlings in this Curious Minds segment about Babies Watch Videos which is ending today. It has been so very interesting and it was a pleasure to come here every day and read different points of view.

I am confident that parents will/must be selective in the way their children watch the screen and choose only quality programming for a limited amount of time. I know that television is here to stay but it must serve us, not be there for selling products at the expense of our children's development.

Eloïse

Eloise

Thank you. This has been an excellent discussion, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Wonderful to read everyone's experiences and ideas.

I hope Benjamin can find a way to get us those GP degrees!!! LOL

Eloise - it's been a great discussion. Many thanks!

Jeepers I posted here yesterday and it's gone! jeepers! Eloise you have done a fabulous job with this topic and all of the participants have been SO interesting, it's been wonderful, I have loved all the links provided and the information shared, SUPER JOB!

ginny

This was a subject that needed a great deal of thought and sharing and you inspired both. Thanks ..to you and all posters who gave us the benefit of thier expierences and their thinking about the subject...anna

Thank You for leading this Very interesting subject.

Thanks Posters you made this discussion Very interesting.

Thank you all you have been in my thoughts every day in the past 2 weeks. I thoroughly enjoyed it and I hope you will continue to visit the next Curious Minds with a brand new exciting and timely topic. I know I will be here.

Eloïse

This is really an interesting and exciting prospect. I have to confess I dont like to fly but if we can get a good pilot and crew I am willing to try. HOWEVER, if we get a good reason not to go....well I will be happy to stay on the ground. SO lets hear what you think, do we go? Do we stay? and Why. Hope you have read the links and discovered a lot about this. Shall we write our own "Martian Chronicles" ? anna

There is no question that we will go. We will go to the moon, and then to Mars, and then to wherever we can farther out. It is our destiny unless the entire human race is destroyed. Whether we will go in our lifetimes is another story.

Robby

I am not surprised you think we will go...you remain adventurous and forward looking always. If you are a passenger then I just might decide to go too...anna

Not this morning! I'll think about it.

Robby

Why would we want to send men/women to mars when robots can do the same thing, way better then us?

I think that it is a waste of time and money. But of course, that is just my opinion.

Welcome and that is what we want ...everyone's opinions...and your point is well taken ..Robots can do a lot...so why is a good quesion..anna

Dapphne:-I agree with you that robots should be the way to go now. But ultimately "we" will be there.

Robby

I imagine in time "we" might be there also. But I believe that will be far into the future. And maybe then only as a steping stone before investigating other more habital planets or moons.... (even that doesn't make any sense, ignore it

An article in our local paper ...from the TRibune in Washington DC ..a google search did not find it so I will quote directly from the article itself...the first hurdle is WHY? "The human race , as a whole, has been far better off because European humans decided to explore America. But within the lifetime of anyone living in Europe, there was no practical benefit for going to America. The payoff was not for generations." Micheal Griffin, President and CEO of IN=Q-TEL,a business incubator for tech companies.

In the same article Alex Roland , a former NASA historian and now a professor at Duke University ..thinks robotic probes for the forseeable future..hold every advantage over a spacecraft carrying human beings.

So ...what do you think? If I can find a link to the article I will give it to you....

Mr Roland also says much of what is being discussed is really science-fiction, and it's bad science fiction at that!

Must confess I have always been addicted to Science fiction though..anna

Mankind has pushed the limits of his ability to travel since he stood up on two legs. It will continue. I think of the first people that traveled out of Africa 10 miles a day tops with all their belongings and families walking and camping, breeding and multiplying as they went till this globe is populated by billions now. Yes, I think it is very likely that we will populate the moon and mars. Undoubtedly we will have to build our own atmosphere on the moon and possibly on Mars. Mankind will probably populate Mars till it has billions if the Galaxy lasts long enough. Armstrong said it.The journey begins with one step. faith

There is a big difference between travel to another country here on Earth, and traveling thru space to a rock or two millions of miles away.

Lack of breathable atmosphere and lack of drinkable water are two good reasons to send robots instead.

If humans had not been curious back in the XVth century, we all wouldn't be here, would we?

On the other hand, I wonder what kind of new tax will pay for sending us up there? A new "Mars tax"?

This has nothing to do with curiosity. The robots can do a better job then humans at this point. So keep sending them until THEY find a habitant that WE can exist in.

Annafair, that's an interesting quote from your morning's paper, and aren't we glad that Europeans decided to explore America. Along those same lines, it hasn't been too long ago that Antarctica was an uninhabitable place. It still isn't that most comfortable spot, but the folks who go there learn how to adapt, as would those who would visit distant planets.

As for the economics of space exploration, I like what Ray Bradbury says in the link above. "We're spending $300 billion a year on the war effort. What about putting $1 Billion into space."

I can't enumerate because I don't remember the specifics, but there are several common items in use today that were spinoffs from the early space program. I don't doubt there will be more such benefits.

Glad to see you here ...welcome..I am really interested in everyone's opinions...there are sure to be many and varied.

I know for me I cant look at the moon and not marvel that once man walked on it....but still this is a huge investment of time, money and dreams...what lies ahead? anna

I am keeping Google busy as I research information about this proposal ..which isnt new by the way...some of the articles indicate it goess back to the Vietnam era..but I think it most likely goes back to the first man who looked at the moon and planets and wondered..what they were like and if any one lived there.

If you have the time and would like to check out another link here it is.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3381531.stm

anna

Hello Curious Minders. ANNE, what a wonderful topic to discuss.

I am very excited about Space Travel because my son-in-law and daughter who are television Documentary Producers made a series on Space 3 years ago and one of the episodes was names "Destination Mars". I was involved directly because I transcribed the interviews they made for this series.

Anna, I read the interesting links in the heading and for now I will only say that Space travel is just beginning. Discoveries that benefit the world are made in space and space exploration is not just curiosity about what's out there, but for exploration of new territory and mainly for defense purposed, what we are not very much aware of. But from space a satellite can watch minute movement on earth and from there they can read a licence plate and follow a car as it travels on a road.

There is obviously a lot of danger involved for human lives, for losing millions of dollars that might be used to relieve poverty, but the government will still use funds for space exploration until there is no more money, and that will not happen tomorrow.

If it takes 20 years or more like Robby said, the US will be working on their goal to send a man to Mars and if it takes a Moon launchpad, they will build one. Lives might be lost, and there might be protests from the population, it will still be on the government's agenda and we had better get used to it.

Eloïse

Thanks so much for your input. The idea that we could read a license plate from space hadnt occured to me. And I wasnt thinking of any military benefit that might occur. So that is a new thought to me.

To do this it will require not only a lot of money but new ways to do things and new products and new ways to use them. In that area I can see there will be benefits for those who dont want to go, but would be helped by new knowledge.

Thanks again..anna

When I first heard Bush wanted to send a man to the moon again, then to Mars, given all the debt which has been added to our bills during his presidency, I thought we should definitely send a man to Mars - George Bush - it might keep him out of trouble for awhile (and I usually vote Republican.)

I just wonder how people feel about going to the moon. I feel that we should spend our money on food for poverty in this World! Anyone have a thought on this?

Thanks for posting and does anyone have a response to Brides inquiry? anna

We will always have poverty, hunger, disease and dreamers. Our problem is how to solve all the needs created by these problems and in what order. I would like to see cancer, aids and health care for everyone get some major attention by the government before we foul up Mars. I do feel we should explore space and at least keep abreast of everyone else though. Russia should have taught us a lesson. I for one don't think Reagan telling them to tear down a wall caused their collaspe. I think it was more economical caused by over spending.

Welcome to Senior Net and this discussion on Mars We are so happy to have you join us and look forward to seeing you often on our boards here in Books. You will be getting an official welcome letter so please watch for it.
Ginger

Good to see you here...read your profile and I too was married in 49...my husband died a few months before our 45th anniversary. Thanks for your opinion ..does anyone care to comment...anna

Anna, you picked a great topic to discuss. And you are off to a great start.
Should we go to Mars? I have mixed emotions about it. Part of me is screaming YES, let's go by all means because when I was youngster I used to fantasize about riding along with "Flash Gordon," the comic strip character, in his space craft on his visits to the Red Planet. Oh, how I would hurry to the movies on Saturday afternoon to see the Flash Gordon short subjects and see how Flash would conquer the villain.
HOWEVER, another part of me is screaming NO!! We have to many social needs in our country that needs attending to. We are in a quandary right now about Medicare, Social Security, health care for the needy. We are hearing the need for funding our educational system, housing for the homeless, more police for our crime ridden urban areas. I am sure all of us agree our social issues should be met before attempting the expense a program such as Mars would entail.
We have heard the expression, "No child will be left behind" Well, when that space craft zooms off, there will be many a child left behind in its vapor trail. And they all will be waving at it with their sorrows of shattered educational dreams. The sick will wave goodbye to money that could be used for their health. And the homeless, well, they will wave at from beneath a bridge or from a homeless shelter. Of course the muggers will wave goodbye to it with great glee because that means less police on the street to prevent crimes.
Yes! By all means let us go to Mars but not before we clean up the mess we are in.

Bill H

I am in agreement with Bill H. post above. I not only read science fiction in those little pulp magazines in the thirties and forties but I also loved the movies and Comic books and Sunday Comics too. So when I grew up my second marriage was to Buck Rogersheheheheh He never flew a space ship but he was a test pilot for the last five years he was in the Air-force.

I definitely think we have an economic mess on our hands not only in North America but in Europe and it needs cleaning up and we must all do some heavy thinking re: upcoming elections. Bush put this out just before the Iowa caucuses didnt he. This is now a political football or I guess it always was. Remember Reagan and Star Wars? That propaganda brought down the WALL so dont ever discount propaganda. Faith

another idea from a mind filled with grandiose plans for fulfilling his daddy's failed presidency.

You have made some good points for this discussion. Like Bill H I am sort of on the fence...ready to be there rooting for something I have dreamed of since I was a child..frankly I used to feel by the time year 2000 would arrive ( I am still surprised that I made it ) all those childhood fantasies would have already come true.

But I also look around and see there is still poverty ..and I had uncles who were sharecroppers in the South and cousins who had no shoes ,, and helped in the fields chopping cotton..etc they have gone on...moved into middle class America but there are still a lot left behind ...

I appreciate all the posts...the ideas and comments you share...we have a two week discussion here so I hope to see you return and others give us thier point of view. anna

This ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times is most thought-provoking about space exploration.

Robby

Robby thanks so much for that link. It was very interesting. And for the dreamer in us all... it showed hope of SOMEDAY accomplishing a mission to MARS....anna

I do understand reasons and drives to explore space, but I feel strongly this plan at this time is, as was stated earlier by someone else, a grandioso plan - which would cost our kids and grandkids grandioso bucks at a time we certainly don't have them. I worry a lot about the behavior and decisions of our leader. Since he got to Washington, where going way into debt is allowed instead of restricting debt like states do, he has been charging like a very young person with his first credit card. Only in this case, it isn't a daddy who will pick up the tab, but all of us.

I felt his plan to put men back on the moon and on, was terribly timed and a strong insult to one of my daughters who is working temporarily at McDonald's, one of my granddaughters who recently lost a job and found another at two thirds the pay, and one grandson serving in the army, primarily because he couldn't find a decent job anywhere else. I felt it as an insult to me and all other seniors who consistantly spend more on medical care so have less available to help kids and grandkids. Can't anyone in this country say "No, not now, wait until you get the card paid up some," to this big spender?

I just can't resist this topic!

Ben, I totally agree with you and I have another question to put to the posters. As I was looking at the robot running about on Mars the other day, I was very aware of the desolation on Mars. And, I asked my husband, "Hasn't it ocurred to anyone that the reason Mars looks like it does is because we used it up and then took a space trip to Earth where we are trying the same things and using this planet up??"

ANN - Good question.

Thanks for your posts...and you ask good questions and give everybody something to think about...we need to hear everyone's viewpoints...They give us something to ponder. anna

Ann Alden that is a great plot for a science fiction story. Faith

In today's mail my copy of Time arrived with a lot of information regarding the proposal Mission to Mars..you might like to check the following ones out...anna the first one tells good reasons why we shouldnt go and the second one tells us how it can be accomplished and what it would take. anna

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040126/sceasterbrook.html

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101040126/story.html

I thought so too ..regarding the plot for a book re Ann Aldens post...my thought was That is why we want to return...it is where we came from and now we yearn to go back...funny years ago I wrote a short story based on aliens here on earth...only when the ice age came they were pushed south and became the American Indians in the Southwest...just thought I would throw that in....anna

I also found another one ..it is lengthy but very interesting...anna

http://www.spacefuture.com/archive/the_ethical_commercialization_of_outer_space.shtml

Hey, I could be the next Edward Stratemeyer, and just give you all my ideas and you can write them up!! hahaha!!

Anna, those first two time articles make a lot of sense. What is the rush?
This article appeared in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. It explains how small versions of the Mars Rover can be used as teaching tools that will give the public a hands-on opportunity to see what robotic discovery is all about.
Mars Rover

Bill H

This country is more than half a billion dollars in debt and we can't even take care of our own homeless, jobless, and those without medical coverage.....but let's go out there and spend money in outer space. Yeah right!!! I think this is a political smoke- screen trying to make Bush seem "forward looking", etc.

I just think it's a crying shame that an expenditure of this volume is not put up for a popular vote of the citizen of this country first!!!!

Of course, maybe Bush will next suggest that we put Saddam up there as a form of "punishment".....that's about how ludicrous I think the whole idea is. Anything for votes in November.........

To me this is an interesting proposition and I enjoy all of the ideas, the possiblities and what can be done...and what can wait ..While it hasnt been my dream , I am an avowed land lubber ...I understand how it can be others dream. If I were a scientist, and engineer, someone interested in space exploration ...this would be my cup of tea.

In my lifetime I have seen any number of hopes and dreams closer to home that have never borne fruit ...costly ones too. There are lots of things I can say we ought to spend money on ...still I am intrigued by the idea...My thanks to everyone who post thier ideas and shares their feelings..it is our chance to share what we think and feel....anna

Thanks for your input...I appreciate honesty and you too make a good point...My first question at the top was "What benefits do we derive from space travel?" My second question was "If we spent the money on earth's problems could we solve them?"

And a third one would be ..after reading the various opinions ...do you see any real reason for going? any thoughts to share? anna

Remember back in the 80s when budget time came around and the military would start leaking scare stories about Russian military capability to soften the public up for increased military spending? Remember the reasoning for the so-called StarWars ballistic missle system (that's still with us, draining off dollars, even though Russia isn't a threat and never was)? Well, think what the stories about China proposing to set up a permanant base on the Moon does to us. Makes us want to get there quick, and first, and bigger, doesn't it?

Howzat

Linda

Its all smoke and mirrors, isn't it? Scare the peasants and they will agree to pay for anything! We are at the mercy of government of any political bent.

Good to see you here...and Ann my oldest daughter who does a lot of research for her weekly news column would use "Smoke and Mirrors " for a headline I think.

Thanks for your comments...anna

This is a subject my mind keeps asking...and I have found a web site with a report from the THIRD UNITED NATIONS meeting on the subject..It is again a lenghty piece but worth reading I think...I have skimmed through it because I wanted to post it here so some of you might read it...anna

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/unisp-3/docs/backgroundpapers/bp6.pdf

When my son-in-law made this series of documentaries on space, I found out that there were several discoveries in space exploration that we benefit from in our every day life that could be hard to go without today. In medical research, in clothing, in telecommunication, in scientific discoveries and we take them for granted. For instance, television programs are transmitted through a satellite. The National Defense use satellite technology but do not advertise it widely. Space is being probed by a giant telescopes and you would be surprised to know what they found in looking through space as far back as the Big Bang. The hundreds of satellites circling the globe don't only create debris, they send signals back to earth about environmental problems and notify the governments who in turn don't always notify us.

Going to the Moon is the next step after the completion of the International Space Station. Billions will be needed to send a Space ship to Mars and I am afraid that taxes will be used for that until they find sponsors to pay for it. With profits from large Corporations, perhaps one of them will be willing to provide funds as long as they profit from it. Then we can expect to see a commercial logo painted on the side a space craft. HaHaHa it would be a hoot to see a big yellow M with a hamburger and fries traveling in space.

Eloïse

When we were racing to get to the moon, our competition with the Soviet Union was a big factor. In addition to other reasons, is NASA considering China now as a competitor? Click HERE to see what an article in this morning's NY Times has to say about that.

Robby

Thanks for the reminder we do benefit by discovery ...and we never know how we may benefit until it is over ..

There is a joke cartoon that is circulating..It shows a Wal-Mart when we the proposed space ship arrives n Mars...even if we had unlimited funds should we go?

And the link that Robby provided should give us pause...as much as we would like to avoid another space race ...if another nation who threatens us is doing it ..can we afford not too???

anna

Is in trouble ...so there goes the argument a robot can do everything...Of course perhaps if that was a manned flight the people would also be in trouble..and if a robot gets into trouble ..no family is waiting for "him/her" to come home...

Was just thinking if the world powers are busy trying to get into space perhaps they will have less money to fight wars too...I feel I am fence sitting...on one hand it is exciting to contemplate,,,the effort, the engineering, the being part of a grand dream...and yet I think of all those dollars ...and how much they could help in a 1000 ways ....anna

The message that Spirit has been sending back has been 000101100010100001111010. My theory is that the Martians have been using Spirit to communicate with us and we just don't understand their language.

Robby

Anna, I'm right here on the fence with you!

My husband, in his working days, was part of the Surveyor (moon landing) team. The thrill of that endeavor and eventual success was unique. And the fellowship of so many people working together for a common end was an example, perhaps, of how things should be. It was a terrific accomplishment and, even at that, has been overtaken by even braver, more ambitious happenings. And failures, too, it is only fair to note.

But absolutely, all those many, many dollars - what might they have accomplished if directed instead toward the earth-bound miseries of hunger, disease, poverty, bridge and road maintenance - so many things.

I remember once, in a slightly different context when Ross Perot said that for all the money we, as a nation, spent on the wrong things, our cities should be gleaming, shining examples of what civilization can be. Or something like that but I remember the basic thought.

Of course, I can say that about my own life - all those wasted dollars on cigarettes, silly magazines, clothes I didn't really like - wow, I could have been wealthy now! But then, at the time, I enjoyed those dumb cigarettes, magazines, clothes, etc. Who knows?

If that is a message from Martians I think I have solved it...it is repetious as you can see...and it says Stay Away , Stay Away from me...anna

I hope that is a sturdy fence....and since I am in the progress of getting rid of "STUFF" I can see how much I have wasted over the years on things I really didnt want.

When others have bemoaned money going to frivlous causes I have said WE could solve them ourselves. If we did as our ancestors did ...bought things we really needed and USED them till they were gone.

I still like to cook using fresh products etc but I am having a hard time finding things to cook with. I had a hard time at Christmas findin g plain canned cherries for a cobbler. In fact it is becoming hard to buy canned fruit ..period..It is now in all those little plastic bowls...Shelves when I was young filled with pudding mixes ( my mother made her own and so did I) are now filled with cups of cooked pudding...etc My parents were thrifty and I try to be but we are moving away from do it yourself to let the companies do it for us and call it convenience. There are a hundred, no a thousand ways we could save money...and that money could go to help the needy, the ill, the disabled, etc...so if we as individuals arent willing to be thrifty can we expect government to be different? Just thinking ..this am ..anna

ROBBY, you mean you don't understand the binary system language? Your computer does. Why don't you learn how from it?

Mal

Glad to see you here ...I know the computer has a language but I for one am having trouble understanding some of today's language...anna

The discussion this morning, the 25th, actually fits into the discussion of "Walking the Bible". Our worries about Mars, money and our junk, are an anology to the Israelites worries in the desert and their coming to the Promised Land. Never quite grateful for what they have, wasting time complaining about God and their circumstances, always ungrateful for what they are given(Manna and quail) and wanting more diversity in their lives. Aren't we the same? I think its why we are continually buying that one item that will make us happy forever and voila!! it doesn't!! So, we search for more! And, now at the end of our lives, we have too much junk and don't know what to do with it!! Ugh, I would like to move into smaller quarters but there wouldn't be room for my stuuuuuufff!!

Seems like the human race is always trying something different to appease itself but falls short of what they could really do if they just thought a little harder and a little longer.

Ann - Humans who have survived to reproduce are humans who save, store up, notice interesting things while they walk or work and take them back to camp to investigate and try out. Women especially have developed these traits which have kept their families alive and improved lives. Men tend to aquire bigger things in more violent ways, but the idea is the same. Those of our ancestors who were always on the lookout for something new were the ones who survived changes in climate, new places when old lands no longer supported them, etc. The problem now is not our tendencies and habits, but our success. There are just way too many of us reaching out and fighting over our space. I believe Mars is only a symptom of our whole situation.

As thinking beings, we must curtail our own population growth. If we don't, and refuse to let humans die off naturally from disease or hunger, we will have wars to do the job. All the money on earth will not buy more earth to solve the problem.

Benjamin, I totally agree with what you just said.

Eloïse

Is there water and therefore, possibly life, on Mars? Here is THE LATEST on that subject.

Robby

The most wonderful thing about the Mars project is the spirit of community that prevails in the control room. Everyone there has a stake in the success of the little robot, so far away and alone in an alien land. If only we could apply the same team spirit to the solution of our serious problems here on earth, there is probably no limit to what we might accomplish.

Anna, may I join you and Diane and the others on the fence? I've been pretty much pro-space exploration, and I still am, sort of. Maybe NASA needs to do some budget overhauling. Our local paper today listed some of the pork that has come to our region courtesy of the federal budget. Included was $1 1/2 Million for the NASA Resource Center at the local university. Small potatoes, but probably multiplied at universities all over the country. NASA needs to work on priorities.

pedlin - jump on up. Plenty of room!

You know, I think that from up here on the fence we actually get a better view of what's going on. Maybe being a fence-sitter is not such a bad thing!

Thanks for leading this dission as it is at the right time I am glad it is Not over yet, Your special.

Being a typical gemini, I tend to sit fences alot. I was told once I was a mugwump - a guy who sits on the fence with his mug on one side and his wump on the other. Nothing wrong with seeing two sides (or many facets) to things. It can slow you down in making urgent decisions, but it sure gives you an edge in avoiding big mistakes.

On this issue, I am sure which way my mug is pointing, though. No more dollars lost in space until we are headed back up out of debt instead of digging our hole deeper faster than a prairie dog with a Jack Russel on his tail.

The thing that makes me straddle both sides of the fence are all the unanswerable questions. Where would we be if we'd never committed to space exploration? What will happen if we stop right now? Will that end poverty in this country, decrease the death rate from terrible illnesses such as cancer, aids, etc.? Space exploration is part of our world today and I don't think we can just chuck it.

Thanks Ginger for the compliment but if ever there was a special group it is the devotees here on SN who consistently post thoughtful ideas and opinions. Just to prove I am not TOO MODEST ..I include myself in this wonderful group.

I think we will have to build a stronger fence. But I agree it is a good place to be. Seeing both sides, finding the good and the bad in a problem helps us to decide what is the best way to do something.

My thinking is ...What if we dont go and later find out it is too late to help us solve future problems? It has to be good for a mind to be stretched to its utmost, to ponder the world, which includes the world not just the earth.

You have all contributed such great posts. I see myself nodding in agreement with everyone. You are willing to look at how we contribute to society, what we can do better, and how we can help to improve our life but future life...I know I have learned a lot in my life..some of which I wish I had learned earlier...

There are so many unanswered questions.. and for me they have been there since I was a little girl...questioning the whys and wherefores of this life and looking to learn what else is there out there???

I am anxious to see what we learn about this robotic mission and hope the twin stays healthy and can give us more information.

When I think of predictions on what the world populace is going to be..Then I too know we need to give a LOT Of thought to what needs to be done..and in that case we think of other planets...but we really ought to give some serious thought to where we are...

Oh my...all of your posts just overworked my brain.. I need to cease for now to give your thoughts some space.

Thanks for all the thoughtful posts...you are really something else...anna

Benjamin, I refer to your post 627 where you say that if we don't curtail the population we will run out of Earth. Do think this could be the underlying reason for space exploration so that we humans can find a place to live when we use up all of our own planet?

Bill H

Here's an interesting and amazing article about India's space program and poverty! NYT Årticle about India's Space Program

I too like many of you go back and forth - is it, or not, a good idea to spend what it takes to put a man on both the moon and Mars - on the plus side I see all the periphery companies that would be created. Also I see the 'know how' to do this is here, in the US, so the jobs would be here not in India or China and, as a few of you have mentioned, the products that will be developed that will affect our lives and create another industry.

On the other hand, we have never spent that much money on a social need to even know what additional pluses would come of it - there would have to be folks hired to administer the programs so there again is US jobs but some how I think we are still programed with the concept of teach folks to fish rather than give them a fish - most see social programs as giving fish - now updating the infrestructure would again put American's back to work but I am not sure I see the benefit - as I understand it the more and better the roads the more folks follow them and build businesses and subdivisions along the new roads - I do understand our existing roads and bridges are is need of repair to the point they should be rebuilt.

I also heard on - what is the radio version of PBS? Is it the national broadcast system - well anyhow, there was someone on who was a part of the man moon mission after Kennedy set the wheels in motion and he said the amount of money that is being suggested is not enough to send a clothespin into the atmosphere - that compared to what was allocated in the Kennedy and Johnson years this suggested amount represents about on eigth as much money - so bottom line it sounds good and got our attention but most of us have no clue to the money used in the past or the amount needed to bring these dreams into reality and so we ponder if they are a good idea rather than questioning why the suggestion was made without the funds to bring it to fruition.

Ann, good clickable, I enjoyed it as to why we are doing what we are., Thanks.

BILL - Looking for another place (to farm and live) has always motivated exploration. That was the human way for most of human time. It sounds good in theory, but it might be easier to live at the north pole or under the ocean, than to find and settle another planet.

Bejamin, so true. I forgot to put my signature smile at the end of that post )

Bill H

I really believe that human beings will go into space to live and work.. Maybe only on space platforms or stations. However I do believe that laboratories will go there to do their research because of the ability to have sterile rooms with pressures and temperatures exactly what the experiments need at that time without interference from earth weather.

I think also that we will have all our power plants in space orbit beaming the product to earth dispersal plants. And energy then will be plentiful and cheap. The nations of earth in what will become a one world government will eventually get together and do these things. I hold very optimistic views of life in 4004. Faith

And your thoughts...whether we should go , whether we might put the money to do so for other causes ...I think we will go...I find it exciting and good to see what we try to do to solve the cause and cures for diseases...Madame Curie was a heroine of mine...but there is a part of me that seems to say ..we will go...and it is my hope it will serve mankind in ways we cannot imagine but other generations will be glad we did.

I am not giving up my seat on the fence ...but just allowing whatever it is in me ..perhaps others as well. I really want to know...is there life out there? can we survive out there...and if someone like me who would never go even if I had the education ,the ability , the desire to go there will always be someone who will look at the sky ...and say I WANT TO GO>>>and others will say ME TOO>>>>just my thoughts on this cold snowy winter night ...anna

Let the robots do it...just heard yesterday, if man went to mars because of the gravity there, with our knowledge at this time, they couldn't take off to come back, so they would be stuck...hmmm Just more politcal jabber as far as I can tell. Get the minds off other things...ladieg

The old curmudgen on 60 Minutes had something to say about a Mars expidition last night. He said most democrats believed Bush should go to Mars, and given the amount of money he now wants to spend promoting marriage in this country, the First Lady should go with him. He mentioned that with the strong gravity on Mars, it is for now, impossible for a space vehicle to carry enough fuel for a return trip - which adds to the democrats' desire to choose our president for the mission. (Nice to know I have some good company.)

I just heard this morning that the foul up was in the computer memory chip of the first endeavor robot, that resulted in all of the gobblydeegook.

In this 2nd one that just landed, inside of a crater they will be sending a "robot geologist" outside to collect material. How cool! Or how hot, should I say?

THE COSMIC AGE Andrew Lam, AlterNet Globalization? Kid's stuff. Our explorations affect not just the globe, but the cosmos. We're colonizing space with our DNA, our liquids, our bacteria, and maybe much else. There must be other life out there! Check this article, it's an eye-opener.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17604

Wow, What a read and yes I read every word. We have come Much farther than I dreamed we had. Thanks for the clickable.

Like Ginger I am amazed ...and it certainly gives us pause...I see exploration as a need within us to know more..what is out there? even what is here? and how does it affect us ...and others ....

I was releived to know the second lander made it and is working....

To me once man left his first valley to see what was there was the beginning of where we are now....as I have said I dont want to go but I do want to know what is found ......"The Man in the moon" was how early people saw it..and one day there was a man on the moon..I dont have time this moment to research but I do recall how some astronomer said there were canals on mars...it may take us to put them there but like the man in the moon ...it was done.......anna

Take a look at these spectacular photos from the Hubble telescope: http://wires.news.com.au/special/mm/030811-hubble.htm

HappyBill - those are great photos - thanks for the link.

Happy Bill - absolutely breathtaking! I was struck by noticing that quite a few of the pictures reminded me of microscopic pictures of inside the human body. Interesting.

Well, let's see, Bill. So far today you've entertained me with views of a wonderful salmon dish down at Walt's Wharf, then these terrific pictures from space. What's next?

Happy Bill:--It took time to download but was SPECTACULAR!

Robby

Thanks so much for that link Bill...I intend to go back and view it several times...It is both beautiful and awesome.....thanks again for pointing us in the right direction...anna

I have put your clickable into my favorites to see them, Thanks for posting it.

Here's another clickable - from The Astronomy Picture of the Day. We check it every day.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Ladieg, Ben, Ginger, Annafair. I read with pleasure your responses to my posting #649. I had a 'senior moment' when it came to remembering where I got the following fragment of information but found it interesting: If water molecules were found on Mars, we could break the molecules down. Then the hydrogen could be used to boost the craft out of the martian gravity and so return to earth; similarly, the oxygen could be used to breathe with. All set! If salt/saline were to be mixed in, added uses could be found for the molecules...(other minerals, ditto). I believe this. If I find the reference (Discovery Channel???) I'll let you know.

You came through with a great site too...I will have to check it ..I used to have a lot of bookmarks but lost them when I upgraded...so now I need to replenish...

I was interested in the hematite since it polishes to a beautiful sheen...both my husband and I worked with a variety of minerals when we were interested in jewelery making many years ago...we really didnt make a lot of jewelery but were fascinated with the minerals and stones and how they glowed when polished...thanks again for the link..anna

Happy Bill, greetings! http://www.wtv-zone.com/cal555/index.html#galone In exchange for the beautiful Hubble slides you shared, please accept this link to another phenomenal site. Put together by a truly authentic altruist. You know, Bill, but others may not, that visitors can flip, of course, from one set of slides to the next without finishing the set.

Thanks for that website...while I was checking the news on Netscape this am I found some of the pictures taken by Opportunity...they were in black and white and for me were more impressive than the color ones..Perhaps I see best in black and white but the detail was more apparant..the colored ones are dramatic and I am impressed with this look at another world. It is easy to understand the glee and joy the men who worked on this display..

There was also a letter in my morning paper from a local reader ...I am going to see if I can find a link on line to his thoughts... anna

I tried to post it in my last message but it didnt work so will try again....

http://www.dailypress.com/news/opinion/dp-47723sy0jan27,0,7970006.story?coll=dp-opinion-editorials

Hope you will read the opinion of the writer ...it is an opinion for but he gives us some thoughts to ponder...anna

thanks for the link, Anna. Most interesting, I think is his point that raising the level of knowledge in one field (i.e., space exploration) raises the level of knowledge across the board. I think this has been true of the space program throughout its history.

Here is a link to a great article re: Space travel .. also about the Mars exploration going on now. This article is about presumption of young people seems to be that we will indeed travel in space but not with our bodiesbut with virtual reality, machines, etc. This seems practical to me. After reading the article anyway.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/27/science/space/27WATC.html?th

Since I dont enjoy flying ...this is the way for me to go!!!!!!!have been giving a lot of thought to my own question ...if we used all the money spent on shuttle flights, on space exploration etc could we solve the problems on earth...and in my heart of hearts I felt the answer would be no.

It takes more than money to solve earth's problems. It takes a caring and dedication but it also takes a willingness of the people you would help to change. I think of my relatives who were share croppers years ago, when there was NO HELP for anyone who needed it. If family memebers hadnt helped by taking down groceries, passing on good used clothing, helping out the any way they could ..some of them would never have made it. But what I find interesting ..some the family helped worked at improving themselves, taking every opportunity to seek the knowledge they needed to move ahead. AND they did...and their children went further..college and became teachers, small business owners, and moved from middle class America to upper class America.

Now I had a lot of aunts and uncles...11 on one side and 13 on the other..all did not have children but helped those who did..all were given the same help and support but all did not take advantage of that support. Some clung to the poor me attitude and only wanted more instead of helping themselves, some ended up in jail bacause of that attitude and some of the relatives were sort of threatened as they aged by those that failed to move ahead. And in my years of living I have seen similiar happenings..In fact TV , radio, newspapers and magazines are full of people like those cousins of mine. They didnt want to be helped , they didnt want an opportunity, they didnt want to move ahead unless someone else was going to continue to pay the bill. So while I would love to see us eradicate the problems of life ...it will take more than money to do it ..and while it seems spending money on exploration etc is wrong ..some where in the future I may not see I feel there will be recognition that it helped us all. just my thinking as I sit here on a cold winter eve. anna

You think "good" Anna. faith

I would like to go to Mars but it would be so lonely with out the S/N posters so I guess Not for me. True for me any way.

Hey there Happy Bill I did get into your clickable yesterday and I wish to say Thank You and that it will be in my favorites as long as need be and I think it will last longer than I will. (BG) but true.

Anna, You have chosen a very good subject here and so I Thank You.

Your post gave me great joy because I understand very clearly your feelings...I am willing for those who want to go ..to have that chance. Perhaps I have been influenced by books I have read ..but I think of the books read years ago that spoke of submarines, rocket ships and hundreds of other fantasies and have lived to see them come true. I dont think you could tell me anything regardless of how far fetched it might be that I wouldnt say Yes That could happen.Even comic strips..wasnt it in the Dick Tracy comics the idea of wrist radios etc were used ...I dont know who said it first but it is a motto many believe.."Whatever the mind of man can concieve and believe, he can achieve." Now if we would only concieve lofty ideals and believe in them and see them come true...anna

. .

and All that is on the Net now. WOW what the future has in store for All those young people that seem to have No Hope. I cannot help but think of the tower of Babel but I guess it was not time untill we had poluted the world we live in and need Now to search for a cleaner place to polute, I do so hope we have learned our lesson but who realy knows, Not I.

Here is a link to the website regarding the new picture from Sprit just recieved yesterday and also links to various interests concerning not only the mission to mars but other areas ...I enjoyed reading some of the other sites ..perhaps you will too...anna

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/solar_system/

Anna, thanks for the link to the Bridges letter. I am definitely in his camp. Will have to check out the picture sites later, when I get a higher number than 28 in the dial-up connection lottery.

There was a small item in this mornings paper saying that Spirit was expected to make a full recovery and Opportunity was about ready to move toward the depression to its north, I believe...

Our discussion is just about ran its course. Does anyone have anything they would say about a "Mission to Mars"

I keep thinking of the early exploeres who were willing to try and find someplace new..even though men of science believed the world was flat. What was in them that propelled them to be daring and find out? As long as man survives there will be those who are brave and perhaps foolhardy to reach beyond this earth. We might say to them USE YOUR MONEY TO DO SO>.but even those early explorers needed a patron...someone to support the dream. Dreams need to reach beyond ourselves, because whatever we dream it doesnt mean we will see the fruition of those dreams. It is enough to sometimes just to dream, and in my mind when we no longer dream life as we know it will cease. Just my thinking on a sunny winter day...anna

My thanks to those who made their feelings and thinking known here. For me I will continue to search out and read about what is happening to this Mission to Mars and future ones as well.

Wherever you stand I hope you have a dream ...it may end this day but we may find ourselves living it in our tomorrows. My corporeal body may only have this moment but my soul will always fly.

anna

Thanks, Anna - as always you've done a super job!

I was looking for something in the Geographic site at Texas and found an SNer who has much to say about the Mission to Mars so left him a link to here. This just happened this morning so if he comes in today, he'll be fine but I guess that I had better let him know that we get a new title tomorrow??? Is that right? And, will these posts about Mars still be available? I guess they will.

I came in to join the discussion about hearing loss (thanks to Pat's BookBytes), and would like to add one quick response to Ginger and Anna's comments. After seeing the developments occurring within our own lifetimes, (and having read Jules Verne), I am persuaded that anything mankind can conceive of, he can eventually create. ..Babi

It will be here through this evening and I guess it will be archived ...I dont know but will certainly be glad to read what he has to say...anna

Anna, I just want to say thanks for leading us through Mars. I'm not a very scientifically minded person and frequently skip that kind of article, but know that I will be paying more attention to planet exploration, thanks to this discussion here.

ANN ALDEN: The posts about Mission to Mars will still be here even when the next topic starts. The heading will change and the link to the "first post on this topic" will change. The discussion just continues until it reaches 1000 posts. It will be archived at that time.

Anna, thank you for a most interesting discussion.

Bill H

SeniorNet Gallery

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews

Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion.

Hearing Impaired?
Everyone is talking so fast. And they mumble. And the PA system at the airport sounds like Donald Duck. You hear, but don't understand. Maybe that's not true for you, but it is for many of the 28 million Americans who have some degree of hearing loss -- from mild to severe. By age 65, 1 person out of 3 has some hearing impairment.

Does everyone in the neighborhood know what you're watching on TV? You turn it down, your spouse turns it back up. What can your loved ones do to help? The government -- do hard of hearing persons have any special rights? Please check out some of these links and then come share with us some of the things that help you cope in this busy, noisy world.

Topic Sources:

Living With a Hearing Loss

Getting Through: Talking to a Person Who is Hard of Hearing

Coping with Hearing Loss: This Much Is Clear

Your Legal Rights to Assistive Listening

Advocacy and Public Policy -- Current Alerts or Action Needed

Ears, Hearing and Hearing Aids: A SeniorNet Site

Western Symposium on Rehabilitation and Deafness

Click on a link and let's talk it over.
Your suggestions are welcome Discussion Leader: Pedln

First Post for Hearing Impaired

Books Main Page | B&N Bookstore

Welcome to a brand new Curious Minds, this one about hearing loss. This is a problem that surely must affect more than the 28 million Americans who have it. What is it like living with someone who doesn't understand half of what you say? I hope your situation isn't as drastic as that of the Breslaws(Coping with Hearing Loss -- above)who have two living rooms in their three-story home and meet on the middle floor at mealtime.

Two of the first three articles discuss personal experiences and the third offers practical advice for communication. The next two, advocacy and rights offer some good links to legal matters. What's your opinion on what those with hearing loss are entitled to? I remember years ago telling one of my daughters how happy I was that the law stipulated all TVs over 13 inches had to have closed captioning capabilities. Her response was that she didn't think everyone should have to pay for my problem.

The last link above is to another valuable discusssion in our very own SeniorNet.

I've worn various hearing aids for almost 30 years. My speech recognition has deteriorated considerably over the past 5 years, and trying to converse in a crowd is, for me, almost pure torture.

Please come join us and share some of your experiences with hearing or not hearing. What works for you? What doesn't? What do you wish would be there?

This should be an interesting discussion, pedln. My hearing is fine (as far as I know), but John's is deteriorating. He know this and is willing to deal with it. He sees an audiologist annually, most recently in December, but has been told he's not quite ready yet - probably in another year or so. It's annoying to him sometimes. He has trouble in a multi-conversation situation, or hearing where there is a lot of background noise. My problem is remembering to speak directly toward him, and not turn my head in the middle of a sentence. And not to talk from another room, or with the water running, etc., etc. It's certainly a learning experience for both of us.

I am not yet wearing hearing aids, but one ear is within 5% of being in the loss range to allow a hearing aid. As it is, I always must sit to the right at a table full of people, sit on the right side of the church, have my computer set up at work so that my left ear is turned to the door of my cubicle, else I won't hear those who are speaking to me. And, of course, it's necessary to eyeball someone who's speaking, just in case I need to read their lips to help me understand what they're saying.

This hearing loss stuff is a bummer!

Ruth Ann

Pedlin,

I (now) wear two (2) Hearing Aides.

One big problem for me has been my Wife. She will not accept that I cannot hear well. She talks with her back turned, mumbles, covers her mouth when she speaks and then when I ask her not to do that she yells "Get a Hearing Aide" Still will not face me when she speaks so the Hearing Aides do not help all that much.

I am just getting used to wearing two Hearing Aides. Nice to hear sounds that I have not heard in a long time but it is a bear getting used to all of the background noise.

Looking forward to this disucssion.

Tiger Tom

My hearing is not good. Has not been for years. However when I went to a hearing aid center, they fitted me.. But the type they insisted on using made my ear swell and turn bright red. Went back and they then outfitted me with an in the ear type.. This was about 10 years ago. Those fit better, but sang and hummed and adjusting them was a true torture. I wore them for two years, but finally stopped. So.. I hear, but mostly lip read.. I would love to hear better and am now cautiously trying to decide how or where to see about new aids.. My ears seem to be sensitive and I find adjusting the in the ear type as hard.. Know someone who has double aids which are digital?? She has a device she keeps in her purse to adjust them.. Anyone know what that is like?

Mary, Ruth Ann, and Tom -- welcome. So glad you have joined us.

Gee Tom, it sounds like your wife should take some pointers from Mary. It sure makes a difference when you can see someone's face. As for someone shouting from another room -- doesn't it make you think of that show "You know I can't hear you when the water's running"? And background noise, that's a bummer, I agree.

Ruth Ann, I know what you mean about picking your seat. My left ear is the "better" (I can't say "good")one and I'm always angling to get it in a good position. Sometimes at a dinner party, the hostess will ask if anyone is left-handed and I never open my mouth because they'll put me way over on the left with my better ear next to no one. (Don't they know my mother taught me to keep elbows in?)

Mary, you and John will keep learning more and more. It's amazing all the little nuances involved in hearing. Sounds like you are on the right track.

Stephanie we were posting close together. I wear two BTE (behind the ear)digital aids. I don't carry the little remote, but have a volume control and two mikes in each aid. Sometimes I flip off the back mike, especially in echo-y places. It's a shame you've had so much trouble. Have you considered BTEs. One of the pluses is that once your mold is made, you can try out several different kinds of aids, which you can't do with IN the ears made especially for you. At least, I don't know of any audiologist who's willing to do that.

My wife uses the in the ear aides with the remote control. The remote can adjust the volume and adjust to block out background noises. The one thing she/we found out is see an ENT doctor when you are going to purchase hearing aides. There are many firms that all they want is your money. My wife met another woman who had the same aides as hers and paids twice as much and did not know what the remote was for or how to use it, they never told her anything about the remote's operation.

I agree with JTM. John sees an audiologist who's in an office with a group of ENT doctors, and was referred by our family doctor. We've been told by others that it's important to use medically trained personnel.

I have been deaf in one ear since infancy, so I was accustomed to it. It wasn't until the other ear began deteriorating with a nerve type deafness (old trauma, apparently), that it really became a problem.

My ex-DIL is a deaf interpreter, and spent a good deal of time working with the deaf community. By that, she means people who deal with congenital hearing impairments, and live primarily among other hearing impaired people. When my hearing worsened, she advised me to go with a BTE hearing aid. They conduct sound directly to the large bone behind the ear. Her contacts in the deaf community assured her that would be a better sound conductor than the in-the-ear aids. I switched from in-ear to BTE, and did find I could hear better.

Unfortunately, I have lost that hearing aid, and can't afford to replace it at this time. Meanwhile, I do okay so long as the speaker is facing me and doesn't have his/her mouth covered. And, of course, isn't too far away. I hope your wife will get the hang of this business soon, Tiger Tom. After all, it could happen to her one day. ...Babi

As my father aged he began to lose his hearing and my mother didn't seem to try very hard to make him understand her. I was an adult and out of the house by then. However, every time I visited I got so angry with her because if he didn't respond the first time she said something she shouted two or three words of what she said at him. I was very uncomfortable with that. Mother spoke very fast at that time. Now she is 94 and doesn't hear much herself but refused to get a hearing aid. I think she must use the amplified phone that she has.

Now I try my best to speak clearly facing a person that I know has a hearing problem. In spite of my best intentions, frequently the afterthoughts to the conversation are spoken with my back turned as I am walking away. If I notice that, I walk back and repeat myself completely. It is the best I can do.

Babi,

Actually, my Wife's hearing is beginning to go bad. I notice she has the T.V. cranked up and I often have to repeat something. She won't admit it though.

She is also getting a tad better about facing me when she speaks. I believe that is because she is becoming aware of how important that is to someone who is losing her hearing.

I have told her "Get a Hearing Aide" but she insists she doesn't need one. Probably not now, but the time is coming.

Tiger Tom

The worse thing about being hard of hearing is other people. One thing I did with my family First, I refused to allow them to ignore me or fail to repeat if I asked them to so that. I was nice about it but I was FIRM...two can play that game you know...and when someone who knows I dont hear hides their mouth or turns away or speaks from another room I do the same. I dont raise my voice but speak in a normal tone...They are surprised to find it is often hard for them to hear what I say even if their hearing isnt impaired. Then I can sweetly say, that is what I have been saying..I need to have you face me and enuciate. NOT talk loud since that makes me cringe and I cant hear..it becomes noise not speech. You can see it helps to be a sassy Irish lady....

This morning I read the newsletter from the local chapter of SHHH and it gave an account of Dec meeting when a doctor and specialist in tinnitus gave them advice in that area and his success in using hypnosis it helping people overcome tinnitus.

I have been very interested in reading here that behind the ear aids are better than the in ear aids. The time I tried hearing aids about 7 years ago they were digital in ear aids and I can tell you THEY DIDNT WORK and I bought mine through an audiologist in the office of my ENT doctor.. will be following this closely...thanks Pedln for choosing such a timely and useful subject...anna

A recent hearing test has found that I don't hear several consonants, I have forgotten which ones, but I hear all vowels. So far I am doing fairly well with this problem. They tell me hearing aids will not make a difference. I had never heard of this before. I guess it's the result of ear injury a few decades ago. They tell me I blare music while doing housework...but then I always did. LOL, especially the old tunes that I so love.

I woke up deaf one morning about 26 years ago... I wear a single aid in the ear that has a small amount of hearing. My other ear is dead.. no aid would help it.

The aid is a digital, programmable, called the Claro from Phonak... I have a small remote that I can wear arond my neck or carry in a pocket. I can program it to screen out close noises so I can hear just the pastor on Sunday or I can screen out background noise in a crwd so I can hear the person close by. I can program it for using the phone or program it for general hearing. All 4 programs can be made louder or softer.

Annie3... I also have a problem with consonants.. I took a lip reading course and learned to read lips for consonants.. If you can watch the speaker's lips it helps.. Men with mustaches are the worse for reading lips. I can read sign, but there are not many places I go where there is signing.. And none of my friends or family can sign.

Welcome BaBi, JTM, Marjorie, Annafair, Annie3 and Pat. I'm so glad you have come to share and participate with us.

John, I didn't realize there was that much difference in prices for the same aids. It can be hard to know where to go, and to know how much service and help you will get from the providers. That's a shame, Babi about your missing aid, especially if you've been really depending on it. Anna can probably tell us more, but at the Advocacy link (above) I believe Shhh has a position paper on Medicare providing some assistance with hearing aids. Am not sure, but believe they currently do not.

Pat,my loss has come over such a long time, I can't imagine what it would be to wake up one morning and Bingo, can't hear out of one ear. What a shock that would be. Your aid sounds like it's doing a good job for you. And the lip reading or speech reading,as it is also referred to, I guess because the lips help you understand speech. It's weird how just looking at the speaker makes such a big difference, but it sure does. You're on the right track, Marjorie, facing your hearing impaired friends when you speak. I'm sure they appreciate it. One of the women in my bridge club has hearing impaired family members, and she is just great to be around. If my back is turned when she wants to speak she'll tap my shoulder to get my attention, and if I've come late to a conversation she'll say, "We're talking about such n' such" and it is such a big help to not have to try to figure out what's going on.

Annie those aspirant sounds can be devils to hear and understand -- like s, and h, and wh, and sometime t and th. Two and three really don't sound alike when you say them, yet hearing them on an answering machine or over the phone it's easy to misunderstand them.

Fair Annasassy lady, I sure do understand your frustration with the way some people talk, especially those who cover their mouth. Just makes you want to slap their hands away. Please tell us more about SHHH, about some of the people you've met there and the assistive listening devices they talk about. You said something once in another post about the captioning setup they had at one of their meetings. Tom, have you and your wife used closed captioning? It's my TV life-line. Even my brother whose ears are good uses it as he says, "I don't understand those accents."

I went to church this morning and when I got there all the assistive listening devices with the little earbuds were gone. So, poor sport than I am, I went home. Snuck out another door so the preacher wouldn't see me. I knew I'd get so frustrated hearing, but not understanding that sermon. What ticks you off?

I suppose my hearing is starting to deteriorate some. I don't notice much of a problem yet other than tintinitis (sp?). I find it very difficult to understand a lot of people because of their accents. There are many clerks and waiters around here with English as their second language and it is very difficult to understand what they are saying. It seems like they slur their words and they talk very fast.

You mentioned how some words are confusing on answering machines. Answering machines can sometimes be very difficult to understand. I know someone who talks very fast but who I understand when I see her. On her answering machine it sounds like she is in a race and all her words run together. She does not have an accent but lives her life at 90 miles an hour it seems.

Just dropped in. The only hearing problem I have is hearing too much. All my life, I have had way above average hearing and no ability to shut things out to focus on one thing. This was very helpful as a musician playing in an orchestra, but nearly painful while working in a noisy factory environment. Now, as I age, I am noticing the background noise which always annoys me, makes it harder to hear speech, so I may be losing some hearing in certain ranges.

In any case, just reading all your posts reminds me what a wonderful medium the internet is. I pause again to realize how few of you all I would have met without it, and, even more, how few of you would have been able to tolerate me with my chatter and sarcastic, often interupting remarks.

Even as a child, when my brother and I seriously discussed the matter, I said I would rather be blind than deaf. Oh, sure, I would miss vision - who wouldn't. But deafness can isolate and I would so badly miss music.

My husband is beginning to have a hearing problem. I thought talking louder was a help. Thanks for all the hints to help cope. I will remember to face him and not raise my voice. It is loud enough anyway.

The chapter I belong to has a drop down screen near the podium and two volunteers ( hearing ones) work the CC equipment so whether it is a speaker or a question or answer from the floor we can read what is being said.

I wish I could tell you more about the assistive listening devices. When they had a demonstration there were tables LOADED with equipment. As soon as our winter is over I will be seeing the specialist in this equipment and view and try some of the equipment. We have talked on the phone and she tells me that the state will sell me some of these things at cost. You do have to have a report from an audiologist giving a detailed description of your loss and what they recommend to help AND a form to fill out but when you have all of that the state will then sell you these items at cost. My audiologist recommended a smoke alarm bed vibrator and an alarm clock one as well.

I do have light flashers to let me know when the phone is ringing and my Golden Retriever alerts me to the doorbell. One thing that really disturbs me is the fact I cant hear the sirens on emergency vehicles. Our chapter meeting is this coming SAturday and that is a question I will ask. Also during the hurricane last fall , before we lost power, the TV stations did not use CC when giving emergency information. Our chapter informed the governor after the fact and I see in the newspaper he has said that will be provided in the future.

Since I dont hear too well on the phone I have emailed our local TV stations and complained when they do not provide CC for information programs..ie weather and other alerts ...I notice since we now have alerted the governor they are better about using CC when they should.

By the way ..anyone that would tell me they resent paying extra for help to the hearing impaired..I would remind them we are also paying extra for handicap parking, special help for the blind, childrens crossings, school buses, police and fire stations and equipment, bike paths, park and play ground equipment and the list goes on...as a society we should be caring enough to see that all of us have what we need to function and be useful....

I am learning a lot here and thanks again Pedln for hosting this discussion...anna

I need to mention my neighbor across the street thought she was losing her hearing..it turned out to be a slow growing tumor. Since her surgery her hearing in that ear has been completely restored. The surgeon said it was a very slow growing tumor and he felt it has been there for at least 7-8 years.

They only removed enough hair behind her ear to do the surgery and after the bandages were removed her long hair covered the wound site. She looked great, you would never believe she had surgery. It did take a few weeks for her hearing to return. And she was off work for six weeks ...she is 52 and that means it started when she was in her early 40's ..I think that is important to know and one reason someone who is losing thier hearing should see an ENT specialist..anna

Pedin,

I use CC often. When I am alone I usually don't but when my wife is at home I do as she insists on talking to me while I am trying to listen to the T.V. With CC I can at least read what is being said and try to focus on what she is saying. Also, we have a wood insert for our Fireplace and the blower makes quite a lot of noise. Fireplace is in the living room where I watch T.V. So, take out Hearing Aides and turn on the CC while the blower is running.

Funny thing, I can still hear music fairly well with out my Hearing Aides. Wonder why.

Tiger Tom

I just looked in at this discussion and find it very interesting and helpful. I think most of us have several hearing-impaired in our lives (although we may not be paying attention enough to notice!).

Annafair, your comment:

"By the way ..anyone that would tell me they resent paying extra for help to the hearing impaired..I would remind them we are also paying extra for handicap parking, special help for the blind, childrens crossings, school buses, police and fire stations and equipment, bike paths, park and play ground equipment and the list goes on...as a society we should be caring enough to see that all of us have what we need to function and be useful"

That's a wonderful way to put it. Too many people forget that we need to work together for our society to thrive.

And about checking about any hearing loss, yes, that's a good point. Years ago, when my 3 children were small, and we had a dog and two cats and my husband was working two jobs, I noticed that I was not hearing very well. I was missing conversations, and the kids were talking to me and I wasn't hearing them. My doctor referred me for testing, and the audiologist said that if I had lost any hearing, then I must have had exceptional hearing before, because my hearing was on the high side of normal. My doctor and I decided it was stress and overload, and I was probably subconsciously turning off my hearing. Now that I find myself having trouble hearing some sounds again, I wish the solution could be so simple!

N

Oddly enough, having been deaf in one ear all my life has had one positive result. I grew up watching people's lips as they spoke, and now it it very helpful in coping with the increased deafness.

I also had a hearing aid which could be adjusted to tune out background noise or for using with the telephone. When it came to the telephone, however, I found it better to remove the hearing aid and place the phone firmly against my ear. Unfortunately, that's what I was doing the last time I remember seeing the aid.

I now have an amplified phone, which is a great help, tho' it doesn't make 100% of all sounds understandable. That's the thing people often misunderstand about nerve related deafness; you hear the sounds, but they don't 'translate' into anything intelligible. Therefore, getting louder doesn't help at all but watching the lips does. ...Babi

Behind the ear?? I do promise to look into this. and an ENT rather than the individual stores.. On the behind the ear?? I have short straight hair.. Will it show? ( I know. vanity , vanity, but females never change with that).

Shucks, Stephanie, if we can't hide the wrinkles, why worry about the aids? Actually the mike portion of the aid fits in the ear and a loop carries the sounds back to the bone behind the ear. The mike is visisble, but not esp. noticeable. Whether the part behind the ear shows depends more on the shape of the ear and the style of the hair than the length.

An added bonus.. the BTE's are generally less expensive than the in-the-ear types. ..Babi

Now I will have to see. When I tried in the ear, I did have problems, but will try for sure.

Benjamin, you are so right about the Internet. One of the reasons I love to come to SeniorNet is because I "hear" every word. And there is so much information there for whatever your needs, including many related to hearing.

Doris and nlhome, welcome. Thanks for joining us. These are wonderful posts you all are bringing, so much to ponder. Marjorie, those people who talk at 90 MPH. SPEED and DISTANCE are my two worst enemies. Can't tell you how many minutes it takes sometimes to decipher an answering machine message. These is some company that makes ans. machines that you can slow down, which sounds good, but they're pricey. Young women, from teenagers on up, can be the worst offenders (not intentionally of course), but their voices are high high hig and they go zip zip zip without moving their mouths.

Would love to stay and chat, but today is the first day for AARP Tax Prep and I volunteer twice a week. Last year I had this woman who just insisted on talking the whole time I was preparing her return. I didn't want to be rude, but finally told her, "Ma'am, I have to look at you in order to hear you, and I can't do that and prepare your return at the same time." She did stop.

AnnafairSounds like you're an activist in the making. We need to talk more about those TV stations. Please tell us more about the lights that go on when your phone rings. I'd like somethng by my piano because I never hear the phone then.

Pedlin, you are so right! Whenever I find a message on my machine from someone with a soft, sweet, thin voice, I don't even try. I just ask my daughter to check the message out for me and let me know what was said.

I do find that the rote sound of recorded messages is still easy to identify. Delete! ...Babi

I confess to being one whose husband is growing hard of hearing and who is constantly complaining that I am "mumbling". It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that at times he hears quite a bit better than others and I accuse him of "selective listening". Come to think of it, one of the typical places he can't hear me well is in the car. I do all the driving now and, of course, I can't face him while I'm driving.

He had a test with an audiologist a year ago and she said he wasn't ready yet for hearing aides which was kind of surprising. We were fully expecting that she would be trying to sell all kinds of expensive equipment and, in fact, had put off going for such a test because of our negative expectations. She was terrific and gave some good suggestions for other related problems.

Back to the driving while talking and listening thing, my voice tends to be on the soft side and when my husband asks me to speak louder I feel as if I'm yelling at him and that's not my intention at all. And finally, at least for this post, I think I consider this growing deafness thing as just one more sign of aging and I hate it. Could be that I'm sometimes in a bit of denial that there is anything wrong with my husband's hearing and that, of course, only accentuates the problem.

This is a great discussion because it is making me more aware of the problems of the hearing impaired and how to deal with them.

You are correct, Diane, about the problems of hearing in a car. Hearing is difficult whether you are the driver or the passenger. The driver, of course, must keep eyes on the road. There are also small background noises that interfere. In my case, as a passenger my good ear is away from the speaker anyhow. Plus, having the 'good' (usable, anyway) ear next to the window creates a kind of hollow, speaking down a barrel sound. I now rarely attempt to talk while driving, and I must turn in my seat if I want to talk as a passenger. So if its just a short trip, you'd be better off to postpone your conversation. ..Babi

I have a hearing aid in both ears but must shop for better ones as I am getting deaffer. The one Pat W sounds good and she only lives a couple hundred miles from me. We both live close to Chicago just on the other sides of it so maybe will check Chicago as that must be where she got hers. One good thing about hearing aids is that we can turn them off and have ear plugs if we wish to as I did today when the work men were busting up the tub with a sledge hammer. (BG). I am having my bathroom remodeled. I have much the same problem that all of you have mentioned in this discussion.

Thanks Pedln for leading this hearing discussion. Makes me know that I am Not alone with my problems and am hearing many good ways to help.

I sure am enjoying all the post, Thanks all.

The Claro/Phonak was suggested by my audiologist in Galesburg... 17 miles down the road, where I shop... It was pricey, but I have had it for 3.5 years... That type is probably less expensive nand there are probably other makes on the market.

To that sounds the same as saying to a blind person ..you can see if you want to> My hearing loss is very profound..20 % in left ear and 12 in the right. AND yes there are times when I can hear better than others . Moisture carries sound so on a rainy day I can sometimes hear things that are not there for me on a dry day. Sometimes my ears feel plugged up and I cant even hear myself.

AND I hope all of you that can hear will recognize hearing aids WILL NOT RESTORE HEARING ..that is why they are called aids..AND they will not stop further loss. Any of you that think you have a hearing impaired member of the family REMEMBER it most likely will get worse. Now when I am in a room of people I feel like I am with a group of mimes...All do these voiceless mouths moving ..the idea could give one nightmares. AND think of your loved one..he or she needs you to understand , not be impatient ..YES it is trying < I know since all of my aunts and uncles on my mothers side lost their hearing and my mother could not hear me over the phone for years. Do you know how sad that is ..? You say I love you Mom and she replies I have no idea who this is and I am hanging up! My brothers all lost their hearing as well.. one who visited me six weeks this fall even had a cochlear implant and still cannot talk on a phone or hear clearly. Since he is a widower and used to living alone ..it drove me wild to have him fail to do what any caring person should do..ie flush the john and put the lid down.. I knew speaking to him wouldnt help so I made a poster I put on his bed.. WARNING ANYONE WHO FAILS TO FLUSH THE JOHN OR PUT THE SEAT DOWN WILL BE SHOT AT DAWN>>>THE MANAGEMENT>.also a shower will be taken every other day and clean clothes worn. Dirty Clothes will be put in a plastic bag ( one attached ) for the laundress to take care of, THIS WILL BE YOUR ONLY NOTICE!!!!!!!!

Now that worked and when he announced after breakfast he was going to take a shower I said NO REALLY >>? WELl I am so proud of you..I laugh thinking of it since he laughed and gave me a poke in the arm. I found it was easier to do something rather funny to get his attention then to try and make him understand...If my loss is profound I have no idea to call what his is...anna

Do Medicare and supplemental health insurance companies pay for hearing aids? If not, how in the world can people of very modest means afford them?

Mal

Malryn, I'm glad you've come. The excerpt below is from the American Speech Language and Hearing Assoc.,with the link to the full publication following. I didn't think Medicare provided for hearing aids, but didn't realize they were specifically prohibited from doing so. If you look at the SHHH papers (Advocacy link above) there are some states that require insurers to provide for them.

"Legislation Seeks Coverage of Hearing Aids and Aural Rehabilitation Under Medicare

(Washington, DC-September 26, 2001) The American Speech-Language-Hearing Association (ASHA) commends Congressman Mark Foley (R-FL) for introduction of H.R. 2934, the Medicare Aural Rehabilitation and Hearing Aid Coverage Act of 2001. H.R. 2934 would provide Medicare coverage for hearing aids and aural rehabilitation services by audiologists and physicians for seniors with hearing loss.

Currently, Medicare is specifically prohibited from paying for hearing aids by federal law. H.R. 2934 would repeal this prohibition and add hearing aids to the list of covered durable medical equipment. H.R. 2934 would provide new hearing aids every three years as needed by Medicare beneficiaries."

http://www.asha.org/about/news/releases/2001/HR-2934.htm

I guess I have a mean streak but who, I mean really WHO, was responsible for prohibiting Medicare from covering hearing aids? It seems we need a lot more information (accountability) on who is responsible for what. We find out that these amazing things have passed into law and are given no background or identity as to how it happened. Is this not a form of taxation without representation?

Diane, welcome. Babi is right about the background noise in a car. It can really interfere with conversation, and with hearing aids that road noise can be even more pronounced. And too, a lot of the hearing is tied in to how much one can see the person who's talking, and most of us would prefer the driving keep facing front. When I drive, my worst ear is toward passengers, so I just tell people I'm boring to drive with.

As for the Medicare stipulation, that may have been put in back when Medicare was first formed.

It seems to me that the first time I heard insurance did not cover hearing aids I equated that with insurance not covering glasses. Over the years I have concluded that the two do not equate at all unless you have to wear glasses so thick they look like the bottom of a bottle.

Yes, Pdln, perhaps that stipulation WAS put in when Medicare was first formed but I still want to know whose idea it was and why. This is the kind of thing we need to know in order to make informed selections on election day and I don't think we get enough of that - despite all the money and campaigning going on, do we really get into the nitty-gritty of what counts?

Sorry, swinging off topic here.

Just to get lightly back on topic, did I mention the Christmas card my husband's audiologist sent this year? - Front page with Christmas symbols and musical notes with the words, "Do you hear what I hear?" I just love that and when I spoke with her office today told the gal they should use that card EVERY year - no need to look for better.

You know, this discussion about driving and not being able to look over to the passenger side makes me think of something. Del is always asking me to keep my eyes on the road and not get distracted while talking. Now, in MY mind I am fully able to do both but now I'm thinking that it's so hard for him to understand/hear what I'm saying while driving and that's his way of getting me to stop talking? You think? This conversation is giving me a lot to think about and that's always good.

I am so in awe of those of you who put up (like there's a choice?) with more severe hearing problems. It's good that some small improvements have been made to help - like the closed captions, blinking lights instead of doorbells, etc. Oh, and that does remind me too - for years we hadn't been able to find an alarm clock that Del could hear so we set out one day to find one - and did. Well, yes, he now hears the alarm but I just about go through the roof when it goes off. That's just about the loudest, worst sounding thing I've ever heard. I find myself anticipating when it's due so I can get up and turn it off (feel more like throwing it into the trash!) but Del loves it so it stays. It DOES get us up!

I dont have one yet but my audiologist told me to get one..when the alarm should go off the mattress vibrates..that would solve both of your problems. Your husband will know when the alarm goes off and your hearing will be saved. BY THE WAY I had an alarm clock I could hear but my hearing loss progressed I cant hear it anymore..And your husband might consider that the noise of that alarm is not benefitting him either...

The flashing lamp...at Radio Shack you can find a relay for your phone and a small lamp. This wont work I understand with a portable phone but when your phone rings the switch relays the current from the phone to the lamp and each time the phone rings the lamp flashes..NEAT!!!! I think the switch was about 15 dollars..I have several switches and lamps since I live in a two story house. anna

When we have our meeting this month I am going to ask about that. It seems ridiculous to me that medicare will pay for some things and not for others..When my husband was dying of cancer at home the doctor prescribed a morphine pump for the pain. He only used it a week and in fact the nurse said he used less than most ..I feel it was because he was in his own bed in his own house with caring people around. We helped him to need less pain medicine.. Any way after a bit I get a notice that Medicare was billed for the $218.00 for that week from the company. Soon I get another notice medicare had denied payment. At that time I could still communicate over the phone and reached someone and asked about it.. This brash young man tells me Medicare didnt know if it was really needed since it wasnt given in a hospital. I wont tell you all I told him but I did say Are you telling me if I had put him in a hospital that last week of his life you would have paid for the morphine pump and the hospital bill? His reply yes WELL that was it I told him I have saved medicare thousands of dollars I AM NOT GOING TO PAY THIS BILL ..and IF YOU DONT I AM WRITING TO ALL THE NEWSPAPER <TV STATIONS ANd whoever was head of Health Departmant in DC...

The bill was paid.. I tell you this dont be afraid to make waves. Ask about the medicare not paying for hearing aids.. write letters to the editors , your congressman etc..And as soon as I find out what SHHH is doing I will let you know that as well. anna

This is a little off topic for this group BUT does Medicare pay for refractory at the optometrist or the glasses you need. Medicare will pay for lenses after a cataract operation is about all. I am just using this as a comparison to the hearing aid.

John Medicare paid for my cataract operation and I think it paid for the eye test after the surgery, they never paid for any glasses. At least not for me...Also since I am a type 2 diabetic medicare pays for one annual eye test for glaucoma and to see if there is any damage due to the diabetes..but they dont pay for the eye test to see if I need any lens change..My doctor was not charging his patients for that test...but a few years ago medicare found out he wasnt charging us for that test and told him it was illegal for him to do that ..he either couldnt expect payment for any of the exam or he could charge his patients for that part of the testing. So now I pay 25 dollars to see if I need a change in my glasses..Medicare considered that fraud on his part..sorry I think we live in a screwed skewed world..anna

You verified what I have said. They don't pay for refractory (eye test for glasses) but pay for cataract related items, however they won't pay for the frames if you change them after the cataract surgery. Nobody does anything for there health, and Medicare probably thought the cost may have been included in other Medicare covered charges.

I believe we should drop this subject this page is hearing related.

Diane and Annafair - are y'all still working? One of the best parts of being retired is not having to set an alarm clock any more. We still get up around 6 a.m., but at least that thing isn't yelling at us any more.

Well I dont work except at task or things that interest me. For the most part I dont set an alarm clock at all.But I like to have my doctor appointments early so I have the rest of a day to do my thing...so I could use an alarm clock that would waken me ..right now I use a radio/ alarm clock and for the most part that works most days...anna

John that sounds like a winner to me but then we are also examing what medicare pays and doesnt...so I think a few lines in that area helps us undertand ( is that possible?) how medicare thinks...anna

I bought an alarm clock that imitates the sunrise. It gradually gets lighter and lighter until it wakes me up. Very nice. I bought it off the Internet too. It does also have a sound alarm but I never use that part of it.

Mary Z - nope, not still working but have an occasional early doctor's appointment or are "on the road" but, truthfully, the latter doesn't happen much any more.

Del and I have never been early risers (we're more night owls than morning larks, or whatever it is) and are ever so grateful to no longer have jobs awaiting us so early in the morn'. In fact, every once in a while we pat each other on the back for having honored those early morning hours for so long - ever so long!

The vibrating mattress things sounds interesting - hmmmm, wonder how the cats would like it!

I think Medicare was originally started to provide coverage for actual medical illnesses. (That's why so many preventative items are fairly new to Medicare - they don't treat a medical condition so had to be specifically included in Medicare before they could be covered.) A hearing aid probably doesn't fit that use - it's not treating a medical condition, it helps people hear. Same as refraction tests for eyes. A cataract is a medical condition, just plain nearsightedness apparently isn't.

Also, now, Medicare probably couldn't afford to cover hearing aids.

There are some programs that help people pay for hearing aids and other items. Some people have special phones (TDY). I didn't look at the links above, but maybe some of them connect to such programs.

N

DianeWherever did you find the alarm clock that wakes your husband? Is it small enough to easily fit in a suitcase? I would love a small, very loud alarm clock. The airport is a couple of hours drive from me, so if I fly and have an early flight, sometimes I stay at a motel near the airport. There's usually a clock radio, but I always worry that it'll be set at a station that doesn't come on early. (Alarms don't work for me, I need the radio part.) This past Christmas I took an evening flight to Seattle because the only other one left early am and I was afraid I wouldn't hear the alarm.

Anna, I totally agree with you about making waves when you have to, being your own advocate. I'm very grateful for what has been made legal for those of us who are hearing impaired, such as captioning in TV and assistive listening devices in theatres, movies, etc, but I want MORE. Now, if only ALL the channels would have CAPTIONING ALL THE TIME. It's really distressing when you want to watch something and then find out there's no captioning. It's especially maddening if something is a rerun and you know you've seen it with captioning. Any US video you rent that's been out since 1990 or 91, has captioning. But frequently on TV the same movie will not have it. The Hallmark Channel (ARE YOU LISTENING, HALLMARK?) is a great offender, and has disappointed me many times. Bless Lifetime -- they have it just about ALL the time. CNN and Headline News are pretty good, but they must think that only hearing people want news after 6 pm on weekends. And I haven't watched it recently, so maybe it's improved -- but C-SPAN didn't have much captioning, except for the Book Events, and there they do a good job.

More later. Am off to show a friend who just hooked up to Internet all about SeniorNet. With luck, maybe she'll register today. How could she not want to?

That has to be us...WE NEED TO EMAIL < WRITE AND CALL TO SAY WE NEED CC ALL THE TIME. Like you I am so annoyed when I turn to TV at night to catch up on news and weather or to watch something because sleep is avoiding me to find only mimes...

I know I have emailed a number of times to the local station when the CC wasnt there ..to be told they were upgrading and would correct it soon...but I can tell you more people had to protest before it was corrected...

AND like you I cant imagine anyone NOt wanting to be part of Seniornet...anna

Remember those old ear horns our grandparents used when their hearing begain to go? I wonder how effective those things were. Not very convenient, of course. Probably have to go to an antique store to find one now. ...Babi

Pedlin, I am also a volunteer with the AARP Tax counselors.. I do efiling, volunteer twice a week and love it. Interesting and I love computers, so its a good fit for me. Plus I like volunteer jobs that have a definite begin and end.. Works for me.

I have read everyone of your posts with great interest. I, too, have been experiencing hearing loss. My ENT referred me to an audiologist in his office. Whereupon she gave me quite an extensive hearing examination in a sound proof room. After the exam she told me that I could opt for a hearing aid now or wait a little while longer. I chose to wait a while. I do have trouble with some TV programs with music drowning out what the actors are saying. It does no good to turn the volume up because the music just gets louder and no purpose is served.
This may help you guys having trouble hearing your wives. The audiologist told me that I have trouble hearing women speak more so than men and this is because women speak on a higher pitch than men. I find this to be true. So please ask your wife to speak in as deep a baritone voice as possible )
The assistant in my primary care physician's office told me that her father, a veteran of WW2, was given a free hearing aid by the Veterans Administration. She knows I'm a veteran of WW2 and she obtained a form from the Vets Administration for me to fill out and return to them. I have yet to do this.
I was surprised to learn that the batteries in these devices don't last very long. Is this true? Can anyone shed some light on this?

Bill H

Bill, glad to see you here. Gosh, we gals get blamed for everything,even our voices. I was wondering if the VA provided hearing aids free of charge. A fellow church member was telling me that he has been waiting a long time to get an appt. with them regarding his hearing.

Stephanie, so you think taxes are fun too. To do, that is, not pay.

If the phone is a problem, you may find this item to be of interest. It's from an email I received. I had emailed Ultratec after reading a news article about the possibility of captioned telephone service. Shortly after that I received a letter inviting me to participate in a trial. I sent in the proper forms and they were received, but there is a waiting list for trial participants in my state, Missouri. But it would be wonderful if this program is ever available commercially. It differs from the tty in that those you talk to need only their regular phone.

"Certain states and/or telecommunications relay providers have approached Ultratec to establish CapTel trials. CapTel trials are currently under way in Wisconsin, Virginia, Maryland, Washington State, Oregon, Illinois, Missouri, California, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Florida, Hawaii and Federal Relay (for federal government employees in any state in the country). Most all of the trials are operating at full capacity with waiting lists, with some exceptions.

Information is available at Ultratec's CapTel website which describes and illustrates how CapTel works.

http://www.ultratec.com/info/CapTel.html

On August 1, 2003 the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) issued a Declaratory Ruling acknowledging that the captioned telephone service is a type of telecommunications relay service (TRS), and that eligible providers of such service are eligible to recover their costs from the TRS fund for interstate calls upon meeting specified minimum standards. The CapTel Service is anticipated to meet these specifications by the end of 2003 making full service feasible. It will still be up to each individual state to offer CapTel service as part of their relay offering."

I have two brothers ..and a friend both hard of hearing and the VA did supply them with hearing aids and some other equipment. One brother also recieved a cochlear implant but that may be because his loss was related to his military work. Not totally since it is herediatary in my family..but he did lose his hearing when he was about 30 when for the most part it was much later in life for the rest of it.

I am only a surviving spouse and understand I am not eligble. And the first time I was tested I was given the option to use aids then or wait until later. Since hearing aids will not stop further loss I chose to opt out. By the time I did try them they were no help. I have a sloping loss meaning at the higher range I hear NOTHING...mid range is a wee bit better and at the low range I still manage ..which means I can hear most men's voices ...and my women friends who have deep voices for the most part we can carry on a decent conversation although we have a lot of laughs when they tell me what they have really said compared sometimes to what I think they said...anna

Hi all, I use two hearing aids. When I bought them they showed me all the options available. About twelve aids with different levels... I can not think of the correct way to state it. So I got the first one in the second level. And it was very good for a couple of years.... now I need the next level up (I think, not audiolgists idea).

I have very soft ear wax. So needed the kind with filter to keep the wax out. And have to go about every six months to have wax removed.

Then there are the behind the ear kinds. In the canal type. Whole shells (I use this as my canal is so short the aids fall out), half shells.

The point of that was - you really need to go to an ENT and audiologist to get all the info you need to pick the correct aid for you. And the office has a person who will also tell you if the insurance will pay for new ones and how often. I not sure about Medicare/Medicade I am not on it yet - probably though.

I lost an aid and think the dog ate it. They told me to have my aids insured.

Oh be sure to sit in the front seat of the car, not the back. Way to much noise in the back seat of a car. Be firm - otherwise you will be out of luck hearing anything.

Hope there is some info that will help someone - you all gave me lots of good info!

FrancyLou

BILL, are you opening your hearing aid (the battery compartment) slightly when you take it out? If not, the battery will continue to be used, kind of like leaving the lights on in your car. The battery will last a lot longer if you break the contact when you are not using the aid. ..Babi

Babi,

Did that with my first hearing aide and broke the thing that held the battery by repeatedly opening and closing it in order to disconnect the battery at night. Cost a few buck to get it repaired.

Now that I have two (2) new Hearing Aides I no longer do that.

Tiger Tom

Welcome to Curious Minds, Francy Lou. You all have been making some very interesting and useful posts. We seem to agree on a lot -- especially that going to an ENT and an audiologist is the best route to go, and that hearing aids, no matter how helpful, are not going to bring back perfect hearing.

What do you do to let others know you or your loved one have a hearing problem? In a social gathering do you tell folks outright, or do you let them figure it out themselves? Has anyone ever said to you, "what's wrong with you? you deaf or something?" Hope not.

What about in a public place. Sometimes it pays off. A few years ago I was changing planes at Houston Airport, and told the gate agent I had a hearing problem and didn't understand the loudspeaker. Would she please let me know if they announced something that I needed to know. "Give me your ticket," she said. I thought she was going to make some note on the manifest. Instead, she moved me up to FIRST CLASS!! Yea! Now I never miss telling them, but that's never happened again. Last time I flew out of Reagan airport in DC I caught something about "30 minutes." I thought they were referring to seat belt sign, etc. So, went the seat belt sign went off, I stood up to stretch my arthritic knee, and before you could blink some guy was at my seat telling me YOU DON"T MOVE until 30 minutes away from the nation's capital.

Tom and Bill, Babi's got a point about the batteries. I leave mine open when not wearing them. I can't say how long my batteries last because I don't wear my aids when I'm home by myself. Just like shoes, tight skirts, and the wrist watch, they come off as soon as I walk in the door. Which is kind of strange because I really don't notice them when i have them on.

Anna, thanks for the info about the lights and your phone ringer. I'm going to have to print that post out and take it to Radio Shack or Lowes or some such. What do you do about smoke detectors?

These are all very useful posts. I liked the link for the CapTel phone. I don't need it, yet. However, it is nice to know about.
BaBi, I don't wear a hearing aid and again I say yet.
Further reflections on my primary care physician's assitant/office manager telling me that her father got a free hearing aid from the VA. My primary care physician's son, who is also a doctor, is the physician in charge of the out patient department of the local VA hospital. I wonder if that went a long way in her father getting a free hearing aid. Now that I think of it maybe she was trying to tell me SOMETHING when she obtained that form for me to fill out for a free hearing aid from the VA. I just now happened to think of that. At times I'm a little slow on the uptake ) I must fill return that form.

Bill H

pedln - sorry it took me so long to get back but the alarm clock we are now using, the one with the HUGE sounding alarm (to me), and just about right (for Del) is from Radio Shack and the back reads, "Cat #63-988. We've had this for just a few years, not many, so don't know if they still carry it. We've had smaller travel alarms than this one but there's usually a nook or cranny where we can tuck this one in.

We are just beginning the process of seeing if the VA will cover aids for Del. He has only just now qualified for getting them to cover his prescriptions and that went pretty smoothly. In fact, I was kind of surprised recently to go to the mailbox and find a plastic bag inside filled with all his prescription drugs - some of them for 90 days' worth.

As far as hearing aids are concerned, he was instructed to go to his audiologist, get a new test (last time just happened to be a year ago), and tell her to send her report to the VA - that she would know what to do. After that there's some kind of determination as to the percentage of his loss and, I guess, how much can be blamed on his military service.

The hold-up at this point is that his audiologist has no openings till March 8, at which time we have an appointment.

I'll let you know how it goes.

I use a Shake Awake alarm... that vibrates.. I put it under my pillow and it has never failed to wake me.. except when I forgot to clip it to the pillowcase and it slid onto the floor during the night.

I'm dropping in with a message tonight, although I have been lurking for a week or two. Your posts are extremely interesting and I am learning a lot. My children seem to think I should pursue hearing aids, so I have the name of an ENT doctor that my Primary Care Physician recommended. When I'm ready to sell everything I own, I'll call him. Really good hearing aids are SO expensive, and I do fine with my own friends. We all yell appropriately at one another when it's necessary! lol

I wanted to tell you about a product that I ordered. I live in a condo and was worried that my late-night habits might offend a neighbor, so I found a product that I attached to the back of my t.v. It has a little green light on it and I put on a headset that is reasonably comfortable and can turn the volume down by a huge amount. I didn't realize that I wasn't actually getting the benefit of the t.v. being stereo until I got these. It's a great help for taking out those muffled voices that a lot of us hear (or don't hear, I should say.)

If anyone wants details I'll be happy to supply them. I ordered them from a catalog for $39.95 postage paid. I sometimes watch local programs without them, but when I want to watch re-runs or old movies--ON THEY GO!

I always open my aids so the battery is not connected. They last about 14 days. I buy whatever I find at the store I am in.

I see that a lot of informational articles from the national organization, Self Help for Hard of Hearing People, Inc. are posted. How wonderful! Now I'd like to tell anyone who is concerned about hearing loss, theirs or someone elses, to join this wonderful organization today! SHHH was founded in 1979. Since that time, and since the mid 80s when the organization began to be recognized as "THE" consumer voice of hard of hearing people...more good things have happened then ever before. www.hearingloss.org is wher you can find the information for membership. By getting behind our 'voice' we help make it heard...the time is now to get our legislators to sign a bill that allows a deduction for hearing aid costs. Go for it!

Hi all, I just discovered this message board, what wonderful discussions, all right on tract. I retired from my job 10 years ago because of hearing loss. I worked in the admitting office, at the hospital, but when a doctor would call in with diagnosis for his patient, and I asked him to repeat it, they were not always happy with me, so I thought it was time to retired. I really need two aids, but can not aford two, I am on my third one now, and it is the best, it is behind the ear, it also cost $3000. I still have trouble in a crowd. Airports are the worse, I always tell the ticket agent, and they make a note, I have had the steweress, come and keep me informed.In Cincinati,OH, my gate was changed after I checked in, and a red coat came and got me and walked me to the new gate.

I just discovered this chat group, so haven't read all the posts about hearing loss, but have gone back over a few of them. About me: I started losing hearing when I was in my early 20s. It has gone downhill since then...and I'm now a 'senior'. It wasn't until I got my first hearing aid with a telecoil that I felt anything had improved...and that was about 20 years after I was first fitted with hearing aids! I didn't need it with the phone...so calling it a 'telephone switch' was an injustice since I didn't think I needed this option. Then I discovered assistive listening devices like FM systems, infrared systems, etc...and found out that I could connect my aid to these things, block out the background noise, and actually hear what I wanted to hear in a theater, lecture, classroom setting & even at a cocktail party! etc. I went to graduate school and completed a master's degree at age 55 because I had learned of these devices and knew how to access them and use them. I am now working full time at age 60, use the phone (with assistive device assistance), and function like anyone else in my agency who has 'good ears'. I'm assertive enough to tell my co-workers that office gossip is out of my realm...and that I need one-on-one to 'get it'. I credit SHHH (Self Help for Hard of Hearing People, Inc. for all the information I've received. My hearing health care professionals told me very little about hearing assistive technology, in fact, I think I've educated them! About alarm clocks: The best I've found is one that has a jack for a bed vibrator. I don't need to hear it then. I put the vibrator between the box spring and the mattress...preferably at foot level so I don't jump out of my skin when it goes off!! It works like a charm. Sure beats staying up all night so I don't miss a flight or a meeting! Our SHHH support group is a wonderful place to share this kind of info. Check out the SHHH website to see if there is a group or chapter in your area. www.hearingloss.org You won't regret it!

Welcome Helona, Julieo, and deAngel. I'm glad you're all taking part in this discussion. Diane and Pat, thanks for the information about the loud alarm clock and the shake-awake one. There are many of us who will finds those useful. I can't imagine how that shake-awake works and am looking forward to trying it out.

Helona, isn't it true that we're comfortable with our hearing with our close friends. I know I am, especially with my school teacher friends, they most always speak up and speak clearly. Julieo, you and Anna have said such great things about SHHH -- Self help for Hard of Hearing People. I definitely plan to check out the chapter in my area.

It's good to see so many talking about assistive listening devices, and the experiences they've had with them. About three years ago on New Year's Eve I experienced a sudden drop in already very poor hearing. Much has since returned, but for a few weeks I was in a real panicky state. While waiting to hear from doctors, etc. I spent a lot of time on the Internet researching everything I could find on hearing loss and assistive devices. Some of the sites are listed below. The first three are from Western Oregon Univ. and have a wealth of material. The last is a commercial site, Williams Sound, which carries many products, but the link below leads to information resources.

Pat, Could you please put the first site up in the heading?

http://www.wou.edu/education/sped/nwoc/info.htm
(Homepage site)

http://www.wou.edu/education/sped/nwoc/demyst/index.htm
(assistive listening devices)

http://www.wou.edu/education/sped/nwoc/ald.htm
(internet resources)

http://www.williamssound.com/resources/resources.html

You know I can not remember if I said I taught my own dog to tell me when someone was at the door. She just never got the idea of the phone ringing as something she should tell me about. Now I have one by me at all times.

MY previous taught herself to bark when the doorbell rang. If I was upstairs she would start up the stairs just as I started to go down ..when she saw I was alerted she would return to the door and let me know this was why she was barking. She was such a sweet dog and her death was really hard.

It took me several months before I could even look for another dog. Now I have a golden retriever, I found through Golden Rescue. It took her a bit longer to realize I couldnt hear the doorbell. She had been fostered in a home where there was no hearing problem. Still in about three months when she realized this was going to be home and she was truly loved and wanted she too began to bark when the doorbell rang.

She stays with me when I open the door ( the storm door remains locked until I decide to speak or allow someone to enter) and lets the person there know she is guarding me. While a smaller dog would do as well I like the larger dogs as they appear more protective to someone else.

She will continue to bark until I tell her it is okay , the same when I am in my car so she accompanies me everywhere I can take her. She is so smart though I no longer can use the words go, ride , car, out since she understands them and says with her actions TAKE ME TAKE ME >.so I use the words like depart, leave, be with you etc and spelling doesnt work since she has figured out what I am saying. I am truly grateful for her but it does little for my self esteem to have a dog smarter than I am...lol ..anna

So true Anna, lol!!! Many times I have tried spelling - no way will that work.

I have diabetes - when I have lows I don't always know, but Tipi (dog) does. Even before I knew what the problem was she knew to stay right with me, and not leave.

I have been wearing a hearing aid in my right ear for over twenty years. Both ears have nerve damage and both have basically the same amount of hearing loss. Now I have developed tintitus in the left ear so the ENT says I need to get a hearing aid for the other ear. Don't know if I will get a digital but it seems to be what most places are carrying now. I plan on bringing my test results to the hearing aid center in Costco. The prices are a lot less there. I have had all the problems that have been mentioned. I find that telling a person to repeat what they said because I have a hearing problem becomes even more embarressing when they repeat it and I still don't hear them. People generally look at you like your stupid because there are times when you or I should say I just nod my head.

Annafair: I have a sort of off topic for you. WE had a golden Retriever about 10 years ago and have always wanted another one. Do you have any problem handling a big dog. I don't know your age but I age 66. That is my concern. I have no physical problems.

Jeriron, we're so glad you've come. That tinnitus can be something else. Very weird and inconsistent. Jeriron, did your ENT give any specifics about why you needed the aid for tinnitus. For me tinnitus seems to take many different forms. Years ago I can remember thnking, "I hope this is my ears because otherwise I've got a bunch of bugs and birds somewhere in the house." Now sometimes it sounds like a mighty chorus and other times just a ding, ding, ding. I find that if I'm reading or concentrating on something I don't notice it.

I understand you when you talk about being embarrassed when you have to ask people to repeat. And deAngel you mentioned having people being upset with you for that. Somewhere, in all the marvelous sources about hearing available on the Internet, they talk about this situation, and the speaker should rephrase instead of just repeating the same phrase over and over.

Hearing assist dogs? YES, how wonderful. Spelling dogs? LOL.

Jeriron, you brought up a good point and I wonder how many of you have experienced it. Do you find that some people act like your brain has gone away with your hearing?

For everyone's information, SHHH has a national convention every year that includes wonderful educational programs, exhibits galore, and everything is accessible. They have both assistive technology and real time captioning for all of the seminars, programs, speakers, etc. You won't miss a thing for 4 wonderful days...and the bonus is that everyone there is hard of hearing...and they understand why you say 'huh', 'what', etc. It's a great time to learn about hearing loss from other hard of hearing people...and there's no charge for that kind of learning!! The 2004 convention is in Omaha Nebraska in mind-June. Information is on the SHHH website at www.hearingloss.org Speaking of hearing dogs...I've seen just about every size dog there is trained in this skill, including a Great Pyrenees (St. Bernard sized dog). Lots of golden retrievers. The dog's intelligence and gentleness are important factors. I don't have one yet, but will definitely opt for a golden retriever if I ever get one! On another note: I too was fitted with only one hearing aid years ago when both ears were about the same. The results after 30 years of wearing only one are that...the ear that has gone unaided, even tho it still tests about the same in pure tone testing, can not discriminate words nearly as well as the ear that has been aided over the years. This is an example of sensori-deprivation...kind of like the way muscles atrophy when they are not used for a long time. The ear actually forgets how to listen/hear. It is very difficult to rehab that lazy ear, but some say it can be done. When audiologists tell us we should hear with both ears...thus with 2 hearing aids, they are right. Unfortunately, the cost of 2 is what prevents a lot of us from getting that second aid. This brings up something else...cost. Right now there is a bill in the Federal House of Rep that is waiting for enough signatures to be presented. It is relative to allowing a tax deduction for the purchase of a hearing aid. It is not a perfect bill, but it's a start. Most of these decision makers have no idea how much these little devices cost!!! If we all wrote to our congressperson...asked them to support this bill...and explained how hard it is to pay for hearing aids...it would get the needed signatures. Please check out the SHHH website for info on the bill and how to advocate for this step in the right direction. Nuff said for now. Have a good weekend everyone.

Addendum to previous post. There is a cost to attending the SHHH convention...just like any other event. I meant that connecting with all the other HOH people who are there is a no charge deal...the fact is, it's priceless!

I had one friend that used to behave as though I was being hard of hearing on purpose just to be annoying! She would get irritated if she had to repeat her words. The thing is, she didn't realize she was doing that. She is an intelligent woman, so when I called her on it, she made the necessary adjustment. Communication is important, in more ways than one. ...Babi

Well I am 76 and only 5' and have no problem with larger dogs. The other dog was a wonderful yellow lab and KatieStar is this really great Golden..she is not only smart but gentle. My grandchildren are from 10 -3 years old. She had never taken something from them ie food they were eating, she has allowed them to sit on her, open her mouth to see what was inside...she barks at newcomers until I tell her it is okay and prove it by hugging them and encouraging them to just allow her to smell their hands. Once she realizes they are okay she welcomes the extra attention, she tries to out smart me regarding her meals. The vet tells me to only feed her two cups of dog food a day and small treats in between ...Her breakfast is early and her dinner about 5 but I have to tell you she looks sad when I am eating as much to say " I think I need more food" but her weight is perfect and like people if dogs are overweight thay have bone and hip problems...The ver says she is a real con artist...and gives me so much joy..and if we both live long enough and I have to get another dog some day I will return to the Golden Rescue group..I am not up to training a puppy any more and I have found Goldens truly Golden..anna

Annafair: Thank you so much for your post about your Golden. Every time we see them say ahhh we would love to have another one. You have given me the push I needed. Copper the male we had (was named that because my husband was a policeman) was really gentle. the only problem was trying to walk him. He was strong an pulled on the lease. I wanted to try a rescue but wondered if they would let a senior adopt. Looks like they will. Thanks again for answering me.

Julieo: I have heard that about not using 2 hearing aids when you need them. It's to late now but I know I will get two this time around.

Pedln: The reason for a hearing aid when you have Tinnitus is actually to mask the sound you are hearing with the sounds you will hear around you. I have it all the time and it sounds like there is someone using a lawn mower outside or I am sitting next to a air conditioner and I am hearing the motor. It is especially loud when everything is quiet. If I wake up during the night sometimes it is difficult to fall back to sleep because of the quiet and the noise being louder. Of course I wouldn't be wearing the aid in bed so it wouldn't help then.

Will check out the SHHH site.

What good is a tax break for those of us that don't make enough money each year to even file a tax return? There's tons of stuff I can't afford. My doctor wanted me to take a colesterol lowering drug, Zocor, and I dissolved into a fit of laughing. $127.00 per 30 pills? Get real, I told him. It is the same with hearing aids. I just can't afford them.

Howzat

A point well taken...I still live in my own home...which always needs something to keep it well and to keep it saleable in case I need that. Each time I do something to improve it my taxes go up. My income is too much for me to qualify for tax relief but that doesnt mean I have unlimited funds.

The other day I spoke with a friend who often refuses further doctor's request for testing...because she sees no benefits to her but only to the doctor who often has an interest in the facility for testing...anna

I hear you, HOWZAT. Not only are the costs too high, but I found the anti-cholesterol meds caused me such severe problems I had to stop them anyway.

On the subject of medical testing, I have been finding that testing facilities seem all too frequently find something "suspicious" that requires further study, biopsies or procedures. I have undergone unnnecessary pain and expense more than once, only to find that the 'suspicions' were unfounded.

The cautious 'suspicious' findings may be partly a safeguard for the labs. I suspect they would rather err on the side of caution to avoid possible law suits. But we pay for it, physically, emotionally and financially.

Babi

Babi,

It is called CYA. They administer every test known to man "Just In Case" since you or your Insurance is paying it the testing facility doesn't care how many tests they give you. Besides, it is more money for it.

RE cost of Pills. I needed some Anti-Biotic pills, cost 10 dollars per pill.

Tiger Tom

Howzat.. Try one of the Canadian drugs stores on the web.. Zocor is much cheaper as if most of the other drugs. I take fosamax and get it that way.

Howzat, glad you've joined us. One thing we all seem to agree on, and that is that hearing aids, as well as other medical necessities, are very expensive and becoming more so. They're out of reach for many without some type of assistance.

julieo, Wonderful information about the SHHH Convention. It sounds like it would be a really valuable experience. You mentioned a cost involved; obviously there would be. But is there a registration fee or can those in the area just pop in and out? Guess it would behoove those interested to check out the website.

"Right now there is a bill in the Federal House of Rep that is waiting for enough signatures to be presented. It is relative to allowing a tax deduction for the purchase of a hearing aid. It is not a perfect bill, but it's a start." Julieo, do you know any more about this proposed legislation? It is my understanding that hearing aids (and assistive devices) are in the same class as eyeglasses, already deductible for those who can itemize -- subject to medical expenses exceeding 7.5% of adjusted gross income. I tried to find it briefly on SHHH. Will go back and try harder, but if you have a direct link, could you please post it here?

There is something "like" a radio that you put beside your bed to make "white noise" so you can sleep. I hope you all understand, can not remember the name or where to get it.

Yes, You can take a deduction for a hearing aid in the medical deductions category if you itemize.. Only subject to the 7.5 rule..

Francy I think there are records that provide White Noise...I have one my daughter gave me but since my hearing is so bad I have to make my own white noise ..which tinninitus seems to provide..anna

I noticed a "white noise" radio-type appliance that Walgreen's was selling last summer. A friend was looking for one to mask noises coming from the apartments near hers. I think it sold for less than $20 and provided choices of a number of different sounds.

Ruth Ann

Another thing you can do is turn on your regular FM radio, and turn the dial to where it is not on a station. That makes a nice even non-noise. Also, just a regular fan will work. Either of these is what we use for folks who stay with us who need that sort of noise to sleep.

Pat,Thanks so much for putting the WOU website in the heading.

How interesting your posts about the "white noise." I'd heard something about it, but didn't realize it was so popular. A Google search on tinnitus and white noise turns up a lot of info including the excerpts below. The first is from the British Tinnitus Association (tinnitus.org.uk).

"White noise needs to be applied very gently and gradually to the ear beginning at a very low level, and under the supervision of an audiologist with experience in this process of desensitisation."

Following Mary's advice or using a clock ----

"White noise is essential for me to sleep. I was fortunate enough to come across a clock radio a few years back with settings to listen to either a waterfall, rain, ocean waves, chirping birds or white noise. I choose the rain setting. Prior to finding this I used a simple fan to accomplish the subtle hum. The uterus is a noisy place and babies, they now know, are comforted by a very loud swooshing noise that recreates the sounds of the womb. Adults can be comforted by a constant reassuring sound that helps to dull and lull the senses. If you have a fan, put it next to your bed facing away from you and just concentrate on the hum. Your mind wants a peaceful diversion and it is an easy request to accommodate."

I understand white noise is helpful in soothing an infant and comfortering it...my one daughter uses a record made for that purpose...like me her mind is an ocean...constantly teeming with thoughts etc so the white noise allows her to ease her mind and go to sleep..isnt it wonderful what men have thought of to help each other? anna

Howzat and others...regarding a tax break. Something is better than nothing, right? It's a start. Also, In Wisconsin, families who receive Badger Care, an insurance plan for low income wage earners, do receive coverage for hearing aids. The rest of us do not. I do not begrudge that because it says that hearing aids are important. Ido believe that the IRS should allow credit against income tax for the purchase of hearing aids. Do you know that a few years back, in the last administration for this country, when healthcare was being 'rewritten'...that hearing instruments were grouped with cosmetic surgery and other unnecessary procedures/items? We've come a ways from that back in the mid 90s...and believe me Mrs. Clinton received a letter from me, but certainly have a ways to go. We have to work together to prove that hearing aids are relevant to quality of life issues, including relationships and the workplace....not all hard of hearing people are over age 65! The majority of them are under 55, altho the percentage of HOH people over age 65 is about 50%. Apathy is probably the main reason why nothing changes. I encourage you again to write your congressperson and ask them to co-sponsor the bill that congressman Jim Ryun of Kansas has before the House. It is HR 3103, the Hearing Aid Assistance Tax credit Act. While you're at it, take the time to tell them how expensive hearing aids are...and why you believe you need to use one/them. The law makers need to hear this from YOU. It's not the manufacturers or dispensers who need to be heard from...it's the 'people'...that's the American way of life.

Personally, my medical expenses were never high enough to qualify for the tax discount. Now, My income isn't high enough to even require me to file.

Physicians do tend to use the new 'miracle' antibiotics. I find the old stand-by generics do the job just as well, and they now cost very litte. I try to make sure my physician knows up front that I can only pay for the low-cost stuff. ...Babi

julieo, where are you in cold Wisconsin? I grew up in Racine, my mother's family from Waupaca County. Thanks for alerting us to HR 3103 sponsored by Jim Ryun from Kansas. This bill will allow a $500 credit for the purchase of a hearing aid, which would be a wonderful thing because you subtract it right from your tax liability. Ryun himself is a hearing aid user.

For more information, check out the following SHHH site.

http://www.mi-shhh.org/alerts/ryun.htm

We've been talking a lot about the high cost of hearing aids and other medical necessities, so I'd like to share with you info about a totally free program -- the Captioned Media Program (see link below). The program is funded by the US Dept. of Education and allows hearing impaired persons to borrow captioned media, mostly videos and some DVDs free of charge. They are mailed to you along with a return mailing label, even the postage is free. You have to register for it, then they send you an annual catalog which is updated by email throughout the year. The majority of the programs are educational types, mostly to be used in schools, but they do have a collection of feature films. There are no restrictions on which titles you can elect to receive. When I first joined I was thrilled to be able to see Orson Wells in "The Third Man" with captioning. I had enjoyed it years ago, but had never rented it because very few of the older commercial videos (pre '91) have captioning.

Captioned Media Program
http://www.cfv.org/

Very good site.

Just a reminder that all the recent movies that we have watched recently have the have the on screen captions

THANK YOU, PEDLIN. I signed up with CMP and just waiting now to hear back from them. What a great opportunity! ...Babi

You're right, John, just about all the new videos and DVDs come with captioning. I'm not sure about the British ones -- does anyone know? And I have a few more questions about captioning.

Do any of you have any kind of captioning, I think it's called "rear-view" captioning, at movie theatres in your communities? Or do movie theatres in your community run any special on screen captioning movies? And, for personal reasons, has anyone seen Mel Gibson's "Passion" movie? Our local paper had an article, mentioning the English subtitles because of the Hebrew and Aramaic in the film. Is it totally subtitled?

Lastly, on an upbeat note, the NYT had an article last week about the proliferation of home movie theatres and why their owners don't go to movies anymore.(Probably broke after buying all that equipment.) So, if we want to be "au courant" we and our guests can dine at home and then watch videos and DVDs.

When you go to see a movie ask about the hearing aids they have. I believe they are required to have some aids for the hearing impaired by federal regulation. For stage plays when you order tickets ask about them also. If they don't have them they may give professional seating, it has happened to us.The theaters in Illinois have a set of headphones that get the sound through a infrared signal. My wife loves them and even though I don't need them they are terrific, especially when you have a movie with music, the stereo is terrific.

Oh, I've been here all along. Just learning while I lurk.

Howzat

I live in the Fox Cities area....Appleton/Neenah/Menasha. We have a great SHHH chapter in this area....that's where all the information comes from. FYI Movie theaters are required to provide hearing assistive technology (HAT), according to the Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990....but it's wise to request it in advance to be sure they get it for you. If they've never been asked to have it, they may not have put it in. When you come to the performance and ask for it on the spot...you may not get it. Once they are asked, they must put it in to comply with the law. I hate acronyms like everyone else...but we all should try to remember to call this stuff 'hearing assistive technology' or 'HAT' so we keep on the same wave length. When we ask for 'hearing aids' at a theater, they may be perfectly OK in noting that you have one on. Hearing aids are enhanced by hearing assistive technology. Other term for this is assistive listening system (ALS). The most important thing to know is that it does work. Rear Window technology in theaters brings printed word to you much like captioning...only it's coming into a device that you have at your seat instead of on the big screen. That is wonderful too. Gotta keep asking for this kind of assistance if we want to get it.

We have an IMAX here in our Air and Space museum..the last time I went was to see APOLLO 13 in IMAX ..it was good I knew what it was about because there was nothing to help the hearing impaired...when I mentioned it to the young lady who has a title there ( DARN IF I KNOW WHAT IT IS) she told me they just put in equipment for the hearing impaired and the next time ask and I would ( I think she said this ) recieve some equipment like glasses and it when I watched I would see the words out in front of the screen..I have been promising myself to return to check it out but still need to do that.. The local theaters will give you earphones and a box to watch a movie..you just have to leave your Drivers license until you return the equipement..The theaters and synphonies also have equipement but the last time I saw a play ...mine didnt work ..when the play was over there must have been at least 25 of us in the office complaining..THIS IS ONE TIME I WISHED I COULD HEAR WEll for I would have insisted on getting a free ticket to the next play at the very least...but it hard to be that forceful when there are 25 that didnt hear either..anna

With the exception of our local university (SEMO, are you listening?)which doesn't do diddly squid except for an occassional signed performance (for those who understand sign), the theatres around here all provide ALDs and I have used them, with decreasing success, which is why I look forward to some type of "anytime" captioning.

I thnk I read somewhere that the federal govt. must provide captioning in its museums. The Holocaust museum in DC has it -- on screen captioning. The rear-view captioning sounds great, as do the glasses that read words. Please keep us posted on that Anna, and do find out if it has a name. At an IMAX somewhere, I remember seeing the words on a wall, near, but off the screen.

Good point, julieo, about using correct terminology and informing ourselves about what to ask for.

Howzat, keep lurking away, but please come in too. We're glad you're here.

What is the name of the hearing aid with remote control? Is it really expensive?

Pedln Checked with the museum today..they have what is called rear window cc..HOWEVER not all of their shows use it and you have to call in advance to inform them you will be there...the person who told me must be ill informed because she thought all of the films used the CC programs...and one of the films is only available if you have 60 people who will buy tickets and come..$6.50 for seniors ..$7.50 otherwise...as a hearing impaired , almost deaf person I think we need to make more noise so that hearing people know we are people too..anna

I purchased my second set of hearing aids in New Zealand and saved enough to pay for the round trip air fare. It was the same brand that I was looking at in the U.S. The reason for the difference is the currency exchange rate. I have a 40% loss in one ear and a 35% loss in the other and am quite pleased with the ones I now wear, which are in the ear. I laugh when someone will notice the aid in my ear and feel that they must talk louder. I still miss out some words with certain soft voices, but overall, the aids are a huge help. I think many people are disappointed when they get hearing aids and expect perfect hearing. That's why they are called aides. It still bugs me that a good hearing aid can cost more than a computer.

Wow, Cyclops - you just gave me an idea! I could meet up with some NZ SN friends and hear better, too.

How inventive--really good thinking.

Ruth Ann

Hello Bluebird and Cyclops, so happy to see you here. Bluebird, I think the hearing aids you refer to are digital aids. I know some people who have remotes and their aids are digital. I think our own Pat Westerdale uses a remote -- right, Pat? Unfortunately most are expensive, but as we have learned, there are effots being made (see HR 3103, Rep. Jim Ryun)to help make them more affordable.

Cyclops, sounds like you have the best of two worlds. What a commute. (As you can see, I read your bio -- we have quite a few from New Zealand here on Books, as you probably are already aware.) It sounds like you got a good deal on your aids.

Anna, bless you for checking with your IMAX. Their marketing sounds a little complicated, but at least the captioning is THERE. I know I'm as guilty as the next guy when I complain about the costs of aids, etc. and lack of hearing technology in some places, but truly I am very grateful for what is available. Thank heavens for ADA which has led to much more being available -- the ALDs in public places, the captioning on TV which so many of us enjoy, and the improved workplace conditions for those with hearing problems. I'm sure we could come up with more, but it all points to what several of you have already mentioned -- we need to learn how to be our own advocates.

This has been a long day -- spent in the big city, a 240 mile round trip, so, see you all tomorrow.

Although I was (and am) in denial, I am now in a hearing aid (1) at the insistence of my children, and cannot see that it makes a lot of difference. I tested w/a 40% loss in one ear. This hearing aid business is very competitive in my city, with LARGE FULL PAGE ads in the newspaper. The only test I had was w/Audibel, and I bought a small one that fits in the ear that you can hardly see (pride?), to the tune of almost $2000 for one, but I do not use it quite a lot of the time. JOY

Annie 3 and Pat: My test indicated that I was not hearing consonants well. Thank God for Closed Captioning, ESPECIALLY for a British show. JOY

My first set of hearing aids were state of the art (expensive), in the canal (barely visible). I wasn't in denial about having a hearing problem, but vanity compelled me to go with the smallest aids possible. After all, I am a tall physically fit specimen of manhood and damn if I will let people know I wear hearing aids. After four years of high pitched feedback, static and other problems I visited with a`hearing specialist that said in effect "if you wish to hear with minimal problems, bigger is better". My second set is in the ear, (visible if you are on one side), and vanity is out the window. I just want to hear conversations, enjoy music and films and not drive others crazy with having to repeat everything they say. I put them in every morning and they stay in untl bedtime, and life is grand.

Cyclops:

Are your hearing aids digital or regular? I know the digital are supposed to be better and some places only carry that kind. I have the in the ear but not the tiny ones and not the one that covers the entire opening. It's a middle of the road I guess. I need to get two instead of the one that I have been using but the big decision is whether to get th digital ones. Costco has them for $899.99 each.

Since I am new to this hearing aid business, please explain "digital". Mine is not adjustable by me------is that digital??? JOY

When you buy a digital hearing aid they adjust the sound at the hearing aid place. So that you can hear people talking to you even if there is noise in the background. Usually when you wear a hearing aid and there is background noise you can't hear the person sitting next to you over the background noise. Also being in a high ceiling room makes hearing more difficult. the voices just bounce off the walls. Some places adjust the hearing aid on their computer and other places do it manually for you I've also read that when your hearing changes they can sometimes change the adjustments on the aid and you will not need to buy a new one. That is something you have to check out when buying them.

Mine are digital and the left one is adjusted differently than the right one. In one ear I have a problem hearing higher pitch and in the other ear, lower pitch. Some hearing aids will do no more than amplify sound. They will be the least expensive of all the hearing aids, but will not address the problem of pitch and tone. That is why some people are disappointed with hearing aids when they first get them. They get amplified noise, but not clarity. A proper hearing test can determine what type of hearing aid is required and what adjustments would be required to facillatate individual needs. There is more to a good hearing aid then just increasing the noise level, and unfortunately, they are expensive. My first aids were with a well advertised company with outlets all over the U.S. I wasn't particulary happy with the service or the aids but will take personal blame for not doing my homework on the subject. My current aids are "Oticon"http://www.oticon.com/eprise/main/Oticon/US_en/_index. It's interesting to visit the different web sites of the various hearing aid suppliers. Do a Google search on the company you are considering.

Thanks for the information.

Welcome lajoy, So glad you have joined us. And yes, isn't captioning wonderful.

Those of you with questions about different aids may wish to visit our own SeniorNet site on Ears and Hearing. You should find lots of information there just from reading the many posts of hearing aid users. The site below is a commercial site, but it does give a comparison between several brands. Give it a try.

http://ahearingaid.com/comparison.htm

Cyclops words are worth heeding. Do your homework, visit the websites of the various hearing aid manufacturer, Phonak, Siemens, Oticon, Starkey, just to mention a few. In addition to describing their product, some, Siemens, for example with have articles about the technology involved. And don't forget to include your doctor and a reputable certified audiologist as well. If you are near a university associated with a medical center, that would be a recommended first choice.

I bought some socks with little bells on to wear at work over the holiday season and I was a little bummed because they didn't make any sound. Well I guess everyone else heard the bells though as many people mentioned them to me. I was kind of surprised at that.

Do any of you have problems in driving that are involved with your hearing loss?

The only problem I have and it really concerns me is not being able to hear sirens on ER vehicles...anna

That would certainly be a problem, Anna. But on the other hand, you couldn't hear the @#$%@ in the other car honking his horn or blaring his boom box - and this might be a good thing. VBG

Jeiron: Thanks----I must have the digital one. They tried to adjust (background noise)on computer in office, but had to send it back to manufacturer. Clclops: Thanks for all that info. Pedin: Thanks for the welcome. JOY

Annie3, don't feel bad about your bells. It's better to give than to received. LOL.

Mary, I take frequent long distance trips, solo, to visit my kids, and I do miss the radio. I can hear it, but only understand a small percentage of what's being said. I might catch something about Senator so and so's vote, but wouldn't catch whether it was for or against. And music, competing against the road noise, just doesn't do it for me anymore. Surprisingly, I DO NOT get bored. There always seems to be enough going on to engage my mind such as mentally cussing out the other drivers, etc.

A friend, who took the 55 Alive, Senior Driving Class, said the instructor told them NOT to play the radio while driving. That it was a distraction. I don't hear the sirens until they get close, and then faintly (but I always drive with windows closed, to keep out excess noise.)

Pedlin,

Oddly, I can hear music on the Radio very well. Not voice but Music. Which is a blessing as most of the voice is advertising or some depressing News.

Tiger Tom

My neighbor's son bought a hearing aid not too long ago and he is having a problem with background noise. Shouldn't it be possible to clear this up?. I know I'm soon going to have to get one but I don't want to have a lot of problems with it. My primary care physician was telling me about inexpensive throw away hearing aids that last about thirty days before they have to be replaced. Does anyone here know anything about them?

Bill H

I have a very small button on my aids, that when pressed, cuts out backround noise such as in a busy restruant. As for throw aways. You get what you pay for as the saying goes. The ones that I have seen merely amplify sound, and most of us with hearing problems need more than just amplification.

Cyclops, when you press the button on your hearing aid to cut out the background noise are you still able to hear the person(s) you are with. This sounds like one of the better ones. Could you tell me the name of the units you have?

Bill H

Bill H: Read #804. Cyclops tells what type of aids he has and also a web site.

Jeriron, thank you. I'm on my way back to read that post

Bill H

I have been wearing hearing aids for 3 years. I can understand why a lot of friends wear their hearing aids "in a drawer."

Persistance and returning to the dispenser for adjustments and help is almost a necessity. My right aid has been back to the factory three times and still is not right. It is out of warranty and all I get now is adjustments that just do not get the job done.

My real problem with hearing aids has been an ear infection which keeps returning if I wear them all the time, which I really need to do.

My hearing aids cost over $3200, with no help from any of my insurance plans. These were state of the art digital aids with computerized adjustments. Guess there are no insurance companies interested in what would probably be a loser with a premium too high for most people to pay.

RAY, my Dad used to say that the more complicated the gadget, the more things could go wrong with it. I think he was right on target with that one. ..Babi

Yes, I can hear the people next to me at the dinner table when I push the tiny button to block backround noise. My particular aid is Oticon Adapto Style ITE (In the ear).

Hi, Ray, glad you're with us today.

Background noise has always been a problem for me, even before I started wearing hearing aids 30 years ago. My first aids, purchased in 1974, supposedly only amplified the high tones. Background noise was not that much of a problem then, if it wasn't a really noisy noisy environment. Now, as I have lost more tones, my programmable digitals(Siemens Signia) have more of the low tones included and a noisy restaurant or lots of people talking is pure hell on wheels. I do have directional mikes, so I can shut out the "back" mike, which helps a little, especially in a place that echoes.

I also use a personal FM system -- One part is a transmitter microphone with three switches -- close up, not so close up, and about 15 ft. Part of the system are two little booties that attach to my aids; these are the receivers. They are the most useful when I need to hear speakers that are not close to me -- across the room, or at a large table. However, if there are a lot of people talking, they are not much help. They help a little in a noisy restaurant because I set that mike at "close" to an individual speaker, and cut out some of the more distant noise. This is called a Phonak MicroLink.

Technology is improving all the time, so I still have hopes for it.

A few years back there was a SeniorNet member, Scootergirl, who spoke about a "Pocket talker" that she used and found helpful. I tried one at a hearing center once -- it is not an aid, but mainly a microphone that is "wired" to an ear bud -- useful for one-on-one situations, and also has a longer cord that can extend to TV. See picture and description at the link below.

http://www.williamssound.com/Products/pkt_talker.html

Williams Sound refers to this a a "personal amplifier." At the time I saw it the price was around $130.

Off topic I know but speaking of Scootergirl, has anyone heard from her lately?

I need a Good hearing aid (background noise) for sure. It did help today to change the battery when paying a bill as they are ear plugs other wise. The fellow behind me said his grandpa liked to turn them off when grandma was chewing him out we all had a big laugh about that.

SCOOTERGIRL - 04:57pm May 14, 2002 PST (#84 of 125) What I would like to find out is whether or not SS will provide any more funds due to the costs of my disability. I haven't put a call through to SS yet but I'm sure the answer will be NO!

I will put her in search again to see where it was posted so hang on just a bit. Edit is where she last posted, Please check and give a report here or email me.

I have heard that you can put alcohol in your ears (for infections). And the Hydogen Proxide helps clean them. I go to the ENT... so have not tired it. Francy

Thanks, Ginger. That's much longer ago than I had realized. I do hope she's OK. I'll let you know if I find anything out. Thanks again.

I didn't know about the 'pocket talker', Pedlin. Certainly a lot cheaper than any hearing aid. I wonder, tho', how effective amplification alone would be. With nerve deafness, I hear sound, it just doesn't always translate into anything I can understand. ..Babi

Your welcome and please do let me know.

I have been buying my #10 hearing aid batteries on line for the past 7 years. Huge savings on major brand batteries. Check it out. Just do a Google Search on "hearing aid batteries".

Cyclops, thank you for the name of your hearing aids.

Bill H

Well I'm ready for new hearing aids, and now after this discussion, I'm more confused than ever. I've been reading internet information, newsletter information, and this site. Oh, me what to do. (G)

Sage

Sage, so glad you made it. Yes, it is all confusing and involves a lot of decision making. It never hurts to get as much information as you can -- we all learn from others' experiences. But, in the end, what you do depends on your hearing. Ask your audiologist if you can try different brands and styles.

Babi, concerning pocket talker. What you said about it being just amplification, and not a real help to someone with speech recognition problems is true. However, sometimes having an earbud right in the ear makes it possible to understand a speaker at the other end of the wire.

When I tried it at the store we put it by the TV and it worked fine. At church, I can hear, but not understand all the minister says. We have ALDs (individual FM receivers) that work with the sound system. With the earbud going directly into the ear I can now sit anywhere in the church. Before ALDs, I used to sit in the front row right under the preachers nose, but still missed a lot. Also, headphones that cover the ears don't do much for me.

I want to thank all of you for coming and participating here. Your posts and your sharing have made this discussion really worthwhile. I've learned a lot and hope you have too. For those of you who would like to continue with this topic, please visit our own ongoing SeniorNet discussion on hearing at

"Hearing, Hearing Aids and Ears"

Again, thanks for all your input. And remember, SeniorNet is one place where you hear every word, and those you talk to always listen. This discussion is now closed.

But please return here because tomorrow Bill H will begin to lead us through the maze of presidential primaries. Regardless of who you plan to vote for, the discussion should be a winner.

You have put all of this so well, I thank you for leading this discussion. Well done, my friend.

Yes Bill always leads a good discussion, I am looking forward to it.

Pedlin, well done!

Bill H

PEDLN: Thank you for a wonderful discussion. Now it is time for BILL's discussion of the Primaries 2004.

Hello, and welcome to this timely discussion. I am certain we all have our views about the primaries that are going on. I hope you will share your thoughts about these primaries and the candidates that are still running and the candidates that have dropped out of the race
As we discuss this sensitive subject for the next two weeks, I respectfully ask that you express your views in a courteous manner. Please avoid injuring the feelings of other participants. We may meet them again in other SeniorNet discussions.
I have placed links in the heading that you may find helpful, and here is another link where you will find helpful information regarding your own state's primaries.
Voter Services
Pedlin, thank you for a most informative discussion. I learned quite a bit from all the posts. my thanks to our technicians for an assist with the heading.

Bill H

Pedln, thanks for this discussion. You did a great job, and we all enjoyed "listening" to the comments.

Bill H, we'll look forward to this one, too.

Pedln - Thanks to this discussion and the links for information, I now have my husband seriously thinking about hearing aids. We have learned a lot from all of you.

I sure have opinions on the next topic. I have lived in the west for all of my voting life, most of it near the coast. I care about national politics, but often wonder why I bother to vote because races are usually decided before mine is counted. Now that I am old enough to vote by mail, I doubt my vote will ever have any effect on anything national. (How about the folks in Hawaii?)

I believe primaries should be held everwhere nearly simultaneously, with no serious contender having to drop out until after at least two thirds of the states have voted. These last few years, I keep wondering where on earth we find the people who run for president, but when I think about it, I realize none of them are western choices (even when the may be western candidates.)

Of course, when it comes to the actual voting in the fall, the west seldom determines anything but local or state decisions. In this day and age of computers, there ought to be ways to let most of us vote about the same time. I, for one, would be glad to vote (from home on my computer) at an odd hour of the night or early morning, to make my vote count for a change. Now, the only reason I still vote on national things, is so I can complain later. I've always figured that right is reserved for voters.

Benjamin, when you consider what the hackers and virus makers can do, I'd hate to think how wildly they could distort a computerized vote. We could wind up with Porky Pig as President. (Or have we had him already?) ..Babi

Being a California resident, I feel the same as you do Ben. I vote absentee since I am usually in New Zealand during election time. As for computer voting. A great idea. Safeguards could certainly be built into the system, just like the online banking and brokerage firms use. I have less fear about my vote being manipulated by hackers than with the archaic system presently in use. As for this seasons array of candidates and the sitting president. Is this the best this country can produce?

it just confirms the fact that most people want to vote for a "winner." That's not the primaries should be about.

it just confirms the fact that most people want to vote for a "winner." That's not what the primaries should be about.

Most people want to vote for a "winner", because you can't win without one. (unless your last name is bush)

Benjamin, I share your opinion that all state primary elections should be held as close as possible. Why not on the same day as is the presidential election? This would give all the states a chance to chose their candidate. And that is not a bad idea you have of computer voting. The voter could opt to do this at their voting registration office and be given a pin number or code they could use casting their ballot.
BaBi, yes, computer hackers probably could design a way to break the codes. However, if the penalty for doing so was severe enough it may deter them.
Cyclops, we do have an archaic system of casting ballots. I believe one system of voting should be mandated for all the states to follow. Lacking that, perhaps we could leave the decision to the Supreme Court.
Alf, I found the televised caucuses and debates of the candidates entertaining.. I was watching on TV as the hysterical actions of Howard Dean unfolded before my very eyes, after he lost in Iowa. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I thought: "Do I really want this guy in the Oval Office with his finger on the button." I'm sure his demonstrative actions ended any valid chances he had of winning his party's nomination.
Dapphne, I feel that after the first few states hold their primaries the voters begin to see a favorite emerge as the best possible choice for their party.

Bill h

You may find this article interesting of how Kerry broke from the pack and the other article pertaining to VP Dick Cheney and Sec. Colin Powell. If you use this link, you will find on the right hand side under Campaign 2004 News, other sources of interesting reading.
Election News

There are more primaries just ahead that may seal the fate of a candidate or two.<p.Bill H

Do you suppose the reason Howard Dean continues on in the race, when he knows it is hopeless, is because he wants to build a constituency to run as an independent?

Bill H

What bothers me about primaries nowadays if that people have ignored the purpose of the primary. The primary is the mechanism by which declared MEMBERS OF THE PARTY choose their candidate. It is NOT a general election for anyone who wants to vote in it. That's why if someone votes in a Republican primary he/she cannot also vote in the Democratic primary and vice versa. The primary is meant to replace a caucus which also is open only to declared members of the party. The parties pay for their own primaries.

We used to be election officials and people would get furious with us when we told them they could not vote in both primaries.

CYCLOPS - I have long had the theory that anyone with enough wisdom to run this country well has enough wisdom not to run. Between all the media coverage of a candidate's wife's mental illness to his brother's drinking habits - or sexual orientation, not to mention the odds of being the target of one or more assination attempts, why would a wise man (or woman) voluntarily go deep into debt and take a big chunk of time out from a career to run? The answer is, of course, it seldom happens. Even when some do, they quickly realize they can accomplish more with their time and drop out of the race.

We are usually left with folks who have an unusual craving for power, maybe even a bit delusional towards being Napoleon, or who aren't quite so wise. Oh, the second sort can do alright, if they surround themselves with wise people and listen to their advice. But they still need enough wisdom to choose good people.

Bill out of curiosty I did some research on FDR ..unless I misundertood I see no mention of primaries. He was considered a likely candidate for Presidency by name recognition etc and even though I did a google search I could not find a link to a long ago memory...A headline in the newspapers in ST LOUIS FDR Wins on 6th ballot ..which referred to being nominated by the Democratic Convention as thier candidate for President...what can you tell me...anna

I come here today with a very heavy heart. Lorrie passsed away at 3 AM this morning. I am so grateful that Pat and Ginny were with her near the end to share in laughter, friendship and love. They represented all of us here on Senior Net/Books & Lit. and we were a very large part of Lorrie's happiness while she was with us. I will let you know the details as I receive them.

In Sorrow Andy

Our local newspaper, the Arizona Daily Star, had a great Editorial Cartoon that captured Deans position. In the first he held a stethoscope to his head which read out Quit,quit,quit! In the second, he held the stethoscope to his heart that read out Stay in the race,stay in the race,stay in the race! I think many of us are faced with this same dilemma when deciding on a candidate....head vs. heart. My heart was with Dean and his campaign, but my head tells me ABB(anybody but Bush),that has the best chance of dethroning our sitting illiterate.

Alf, thanks for letting us know about Lorrie. I didn't "know" here, but obviously, she was a big part of SN. We'll miss her.

Anna, the party conventions were the only means of nominating candidates until the mid to late 1960s. Conventions used to be where all the wheeling and dealing was done, lots of the fabled smoke-filled rooms, sometimes taking days and days and lots of ballots taken to nominate a candidate and then choose a VP candidate. Conventions today are mostly just "coronations" and a way to whip up enthusiasm in the party faithful.

The way we are electing candidates for President now does not seem to be working as well as the smoke filled rooms of the past. I think primaries should all be held the same day in all states, preferably August. That would cut down on the time we had to listen to all the malarkey. They shouldn't be able to file until Jun.

Welcome to the Books discussions and to Curious Minds ~ Primaries 2004 We are glad to see you here, especialy me my friend as Long time No see. You will be getting a Welcome email from us, Please watch for it.

Ginger

Hi Ginger. Came to site via the banner that was posted. We had a really nice luncheon in Florence,AZ with some of the other AZ Senior Netters that you have met. It was on Feb. 10th.Delphine, Dawn T.,EME & Leonard,DigGirl, Ron & I were there. David, Delphine's husband was under the weather and did not make it.

Benjamin, I come from a background of deep suspicion of politicians. I know there are some out there who genuinely have the interests of the nation at heart. For the rest, however, I have long felt that politics attracts people who hunger for power and prestige. Understandably, I don't want people hungry for power in positions of power. Makes it kind of difficult, doesn't it? ...Babi

I never made it to the Minnesota gathering but have always wanted too meet Delphine and David. I know that All of you had a good time with you at the helm. My first experince in a jucuzzi was at Your S/N International bash in Arizona. I now have a jucizzi in my home for health reasons (bad back).

I do so hope we get Kerry as our next president as I grieve at the losses of our young people fighting in this war.

Ginger

For Lorrie

Bill H

I posted this rose in loving memory of our Lorrie. She was the coordinator for Curious Minds for a very long time. It is with a very heavy heart that I learn of her death. When Curious Minds was faltering, she took over as coordinator and made it the most popular discussion fourm in Books and Literature.
I will have been on SeniorNet four years next month. I have been a Discussion Leader for most of those four years and it was through her urging that I agreed to become a DL.
Goodbye, Lorrie. We will miss you.

Bill H

By 1916 bearly half the states were holding primary elections.

The link above will take you to an article which tells you more about primary elections when you click it.

I think there are some very good Democrats up for the presidential candidate. I like Kucinich, but I also like Kerry and Edwards. Kerry is senator from my home state of Massachusetts. Edwards is senator from North Carolina where I live now. Edwards has never failed to answer emails I send to his office, and he votes the way I like.

So does Kerry, who had the advantage of attending some of the best schools New England has to offer. These schools are tough. You can believe me when I say that because I received my education there. The climate is tough, too, and native New Englanders reflect the area's ability to withstand any kind of weather.

I very much dislike the distractions that come up during elections like this war record one. What difference does it make if Bush's record in the National Guard is what it is, or whether John Kerry, a decorated veteran of the Vietnam War, came home with a strong aversion to that war after what he saw and went through, when other issues are much more important?

The primary election here in North Carolina is in May. I'll vote by absentee ballot in that election and the one in November.

Mal

Thank you for posting the rose for Lorrie Bill. Some of my most pleasant times on Senior Net have been in Discussions with Lorrie. At one time we kept the LIbrary rocking. Then of course Curious Minds was such a successful discussion. I truly will miss Lorrie. Faith

The link below will take you to the Books Community Center where you can read a moving essay by Lorrie Gorg.

Scroll down to read "Giving Thanks" by Lorrie Gorg

Bill - Your Rose for Lorrie made me cry. We will miss her very much.

Carolyn

Mary Z, thank you for answering Anna's question about the FDR nomination. I confess I didn't know..
Benjamin, I believe it is power and prestige that drives the vast majority of presidential candidates for seeking that office. The power that could serve the special interest groups such as pharmaceuticals, tobacco, large corporations etc. What else! There are those that have more money than they could ever spend
Tucson Pat, a very sentimental post. So many of us listen to our hear when we should be listening to our head. I see you and Ginger are old friends.
DorisA, I did a book discussion of "Truman" a while back and that book described those smoke filled rooms quite well. The party top brass chose, for the most part, chose the candidate in those days.
BaBi, very well said.

Bill H

The web page that Mal posted has a great discussion of presidential primaries. Thanks, Mal.

Mal, thank you for the link in post #864 it explains the flux the primaries are in today.
I don't care for the mud slinging that goes on during the elections. In my opinion, it just serves to turn of many would be voters. I also believe that most registered and unregistered voters are turned off by this mud slinging. The vast majority of American voters don't vote
Thank you for the 'Giving Thanks" link. I read that some time ago. Now I read it as the words of a dearly departed friend

Bill H

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette carried a very good article about the Wisconsin Primary that is taking place as I write this.
Battle for Second Place
If Kerry does win his party's nomination, do you think he will chose Sen. John Edwards as a running mate? I have read if Edwards would agree to run as VP the Democratic Party would have a formidable ticket. What do you think?

Bill H

This is a confusing day - Lorrie is on my mind but I know she would want us to move forward - I am also confused if this discussion is about the current primary and the curren candidates or the process of primaries in general -

And today I can't help but say that we are not always aware how much the media is affecting our thinking - words chosen - images created - personal opinions by comentators that are often only to secure their own jobs - very different than years ago when it was a whistle stop connection but from the horses mouth and then with very little opportunity to create a different image by many having more access to our ears and eyes than the candidates. Therefore to me this discussion if it is about todays primaries the role of the media has greater significance than what the candidate has to say...

I very much agree with you, Barbara - the media controls everything we see, and wants an even heavier hand by getting the authority to consolidate and control more outlets in any given area. This is what the media giants are lobbying for in Congress right now.

Having said that, I think Kerry/Edwards would be a formidable ticket for the Democrats this year.

Here's an interesting link to a NYT editorial on who controls the media: The Five Sisters

I agree with Barbara and the situation is not getting better but worse. And, I wonder if there is anything we can do to change the system. Probably not! I have tried to pay attention to the contenders in the primaries but I really think its all about power and greed and am becoming disgusted with all politicians. I will only vote so that I can complain about the results. And, none of them will be the right results. Where is our "gray power" that we speak of often? Remember the "Gray Panthers" and that wonderful lady who was in charge? I can see her face but her name eludes me. Maggie Kuhn who passed away in 1995 at the age of 90!! Here's a link to the Panthers homepage Gray Panthers

Good grief, Maggie Kuhn had/has her own page on Seniornet!! Here 'tis! Maggie Growls

Bill, Thanks for posting a link to this discussion in "Classical Mysteries." The posts here are lively and interesting. I just heard on the afternoon news that Dean had officially dropped out of the current Democratic primary race. The Democratic primaries are taking on greater importance now as Bush's popularity ratings are dropping. At the beginning, the Democratic primaries were reagarded as a side show by many, since Bush's reelection seemed assured. But in politics, anything can happen. Many Democrats, sensing that they now have a real shot at making Bush a one-term president like his father, are focusing on finding the best ticket for this purpose. This appears to be one of Kerry's main attractions. Of course, the Republicans will focus on doing whatever damage they can to his image as a hero and a moderate. Politics is a fabulous show where no one knows the ending very far in advance. Not long ago, Kerry's candidacy was written off as dead, and Dean was the front-runner. Stay tuned!

Ann, yes the media is very powerful and for the most part their leanings are to the left or liberal. Just watch the job they do on President Bush this election year. I enjoyed the Gray Panther's link you provided. When the seniors fully grasp the job that was done on them by this new Medicare Prescription benefit that was recently passed into law they will find that all that glitters is not gold. What an election year stunt that was!
Horselover, glad you found us! I'm not certain that Dean is done. Don't be surprised if he runs as an Independent. That would be the Democrat Party's worse nightmare. Remember Ralph Nadir in the 2000 election and how he siphoned votes away from Gore/Lieberman?
I read on AOL that Dean is not ready to endorse any candidate. hmmmm.What do you think?
A little more on Comcast. I read in my newspaper that Comcast wants to by out AT&T Wireless. Now communications are in danger of being controlled, if they are not already.

Bill H

I hadn't heard about Comcast and AT&TWireless. Last I heard, Comcast was bidding for Disney, and had been turned down because their bid wasn't high enough. Did Cingular finally buy AT&T?

I don't think that Dean will run against the democrats. He wants bush gone. I think that he will run with whoever is chosen to be the dem candidate... Not as a VP, but in support of.

He may not get to be President, this time... but don't rule out the future.

Barbara, the news media both electronic and print do have a great influence on elections. I try to get a different perceptive each day by watching Fox's Bill O'Reilley and Hannity and Colmes. O'Reilley seems sto be a little even handed but Hannity is so far to the right that his right hand doesn't know it has a left hand ).
These two programs claim that the rest f the media is too liberal. However, I do enjoy watching the different news programs. I find all of them very entertaining. But I make up my own mind by listening to the various candidates views. My judgment of voting either Democrat or Republican is formed by watching and keeping tract of the various legislation that is enacted into law. I am not at all impressed with the legislation that this administration has enacted into law.

Bill H

"I am not at all impressed with the legislation that this administration has enacted into law."

Are you impressed with the legislation the previous administration has enacted into law, such as NAFTA and deregulation of many of the services we use.

It appears we can't win. Some of the promises the present candidates are setting forth are just words to people that are dreaming and not thinking.

Bill, I don't think Dean will run as an independent. Unlike Ralph Nader, Dean is a serious politician and wants to preserve his credibility within the party. As Dapphne pointed out, he may want to run for something in the future. Right now, he has used up almost all his funds and would have a difficult time running an independent presidential campaign. But he has hinted that he intends to keep his ideas alive during the rest of primaries by monitoring the remaining candidates and how they "adhere to the standards set" by his campaign.

The left may dominate the broadcast TV and some of the print media, but the conservatives sure do dominate talk radio. If you tune into any of these stations, you hear a non-stop stream of invective against and ridicule of any and all Democratic candidates, and a totally uncritical support for virtually all the Bush administration policies. Still, I think most voters are smart enough to separate the wheat from the chaff and to know what is important to them.

JTM, so happy you joined in and thank you for answering many of my computer questions. No, I admit NAFTA is a blight on the legislation of the past administration. And, yes, I do agree that "promises like pie crust crumble easily." I put that in quotes because that was a favorite saying of my grandmother. Tonight, Peter Jennings of ABC news reported that the Bush administration is backing away from the 2.7 million jobs that he predicted for this year in his State of the Union Speech. Is this another pie crust crumbling?
One of the pieces of legislation of the present administration I had in mind was the tax cut that has created the ballooning deficits. If they are allowed to run away like this it will put a terrible burden on our children and grandchildren. It seems to be so fiscally irresponsible.

Bill H

Indiana's Primary is a waste of time, it's not til May 4 and we don't have enough votes to swing anything. I'll work the polls as usual, but plan to take a book or two as I doubt if we'll have many voters. Turnout is poor most elections, but for this primary... This fall should be interesting. The last Presidental election we had so many people jammed in at 6(when polls close) that we stayed an hour late to allow them all to vote.

I think primaries should be all held in a 2 week period. Less costly.

I think primaries should be all held in a 2 week period. Less costly.

Not only less costly but less commentary by every newscaster...Everyone and thier dog is being asked what they thinkk. Frankly from some of the replies I'd rather hear the what a dog says..They are good at sniffing out the bad guys...anna

I like the concept of the primaries spread out only because it gives the candidates a chance to go after the vote - in the process they hone their message and we see them over a long haul which is difficult but no more difficult than the 4 year long haul they are asking us to allow them to lead our government - I think again we are getting the media mixed in as they are making predictions and giving their critique so that information is carried on to the next set of primaries - as a result we see a pattern and want it over - but delegates must be chosen...

I still think the media regardless who you watch is simply there every day giving us their version of what is going on and they have more access to our attention than the candidates - We would like to think we make up our minds only using our ability to perceive what a candidate stands for based on what he says but, if that were true than advertisements would have no affect on our choices - it is the repetition that sells the product - and the media chooses what to repeat when it comes to the news.

Who knows their history - seems to me when I was a kid most of what is happening now in primaries took place at the convention - but if that was the way of it how were the delegates chosen?

ANNAFAIR - As far as everyone and their dog being asked what they think, I just asked my dog what she thinks about the primaries and the news on TV. She turned her back to the TV and started chewing on her bone. I guess that often sums up my opion, too.

And You just gave me one. Like Barbara my youthful memories do not include primaries. A google search , regardless of how I worded it did not tell me when primaries began.

What I would wish for would be candidates that did not tell me how great they are, and how no one else is as great. How can you say all the things about each other and say you are the best and then have to say well I will support this guy..he isnt as good as I would have been but since you werent smart enough to pick me then he will have to do! That is the message I get..

And I truly resent the media always telling me what they think. I am independent in spirit ...just give me the facts and allow ME to decide what I should think and who I should support...anna

hear hear anna - where is journalism as we learned it in school - I guess it went by way of the newspaper - Ben we should all be as smart as your dog hehehe -

I am thinking and just wonder regardless what the candidate says - he really can't deliver - the system is what he works within and many changes require congressional approval - during primaries and even during pre-election speeches we are all looking for definites and answers - they never tip their hand as to who their cabinet members will be - all those who surround the man and really make things happen - and so bottom line does it matter what he says - should we really be looking at the kind of organization he created for his run to help us evaluate what he is more likely to do in office?

In fact during the primaries I would like for them to tell us who their running mate will be and during pre-election campaigning i would like to know who some of the key members of his cabenit would be. I know that by choosing a running mate that early elliminates the concept of choosing another who ran well in the primaries so that can be a problem hmmmm but I am convinced we do not get a real picture of the man till we know who he plans on surrounding himself with in order to do his work.

Barbara, you are so right about a president being able to accomplish only that which congress (both houses) will enact and send to him for signing into law--except for the presidential directives and such as he has legally at his disposal). It is crucial for citizens, trying to make choices about leadership, to know who the people are that will surround those leaders (since running the federal government is not a one-man thing, nor was it meant to be.

And we need to know what leaders plan to DO about the issues they raise. Not just whining about how awful things are--heck, we all know that--but WHAT, EXACTLY, WOULD YOU (the person running for office) DO TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. Their answers are always so "general" as to be meaningless.

I'm assuming that these candidates already know what they plan to do (or try real hard to do), that they aren't planning to just make it up as they go along.

Howzat

Alf, Peter Jennings reported last night that it is in deed Cingular that is making a bid for AT&T Wireless. However, I did read in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette an Associated Press Article that claimed that Comcast was making a bid for that Wireless company,also. I wish I could find that article because I didn't intend to mislead anyone.

Bill H

The following two paragraphs are from a link I posted in the heading and they may help explain the early beginnings of Primary Elections:
"The formal, legally regulated primary system is peculiar to the United States. The earliest method for nominating candidates was the caucus (q.v.), adopted in colonial times for local offices and continued into the 19th century for state and national offices. Nominating conventions, instituted as a means of checking the abuses of the caucus system, also became subject to abuses that led first to their regulation and ultimately to their elimination for most offices except president and vice-president. After 1890, mandatory regulations transformed the primary into an election that is conducted by public officers at public expense.
Although direct primaries were used as early as 1842 (by the Democratic Party in Crawford county, Pa.), the system came into general use only in the 20th century, beginning with Wisconsin in 1903. The movement spread so rapidly that by 1917 all but four states had adopted the direct primary for some or all statewide nominations. Except in several Southern states, where primaries are still optional, primaries are now required for all state and local offices in the United States. Attention from the news media has increased the importance of presidential primaries to the point where success, especially in the early primaries, gives a candidate a great advantage in publicity and private campaign funding, whereas failure can end a campaign."
To read the this interesting article in it entirety, Please use this link.
Early Primaries

Bill H

CAUCUS

Bill H

It's no big deal Bill, by the time one of them buys it, another will be bidding for the new holdings.

A few of the states have open primary elections. This allows crossovers and enables voters registered with another party to vote in either the Democrat or Republican primaries. On the surface it looks good but it could prove to be crippling for the leading candidate of the moment. I guess what I am trying to say is: It could allow for a mass of votes being cast for a lesser candidate thereby creating confusion within the party.
How do you feel about open primaries and what are you views concerning this the above.

Bll H

When we lived in Tennessee...1957-1969 they had open primaries ..or at least crossover voting...You realize that has been a long time ago but I do recall voting for someone I felt deserved to be elected ( and he was) even if it wasnt my party of choice. anna

Perhaps it would also allow people to vote for the best person. I dont think the parties always nominate the best candidate...and frankly I am tired of hearing all parties spending money to slam the other party ..what they should be doing is telling us what THEY WILL DO and be specific..I know Congress has to approve..but congress is also elected and if whomever is elected president is more specific perhaps congress would be more apt to pass a bill that the consituency wanted via its vote for president..anna

My dog also turns her back on TV unless another dog is barking...she hasnt learned that some dogs are in human clothing..anna

It seems kind of odd to me that the primaries do not follow the identical same patterns from state to state. Since we're all voting toward the same end, shouldn't the guidelines be the same? Seems kinda like adding apples and oranges to come up with a pineapple - know what I mean?

We have an open primary in Wisconsin. I think it's not a problem. This time we got to vote for the Democrat, as there was no real contest on the Republican side - I don't know of any Republicans that voted to attempt to mess up the election. It seems to me that wouldn't work, and it would be too likely to backfire.

We can't cross over, must choose either the Republican or Democrat ballot, but we don't have to be registered with a party. As an independent voter, I appreciate the opportunity to have a voice.

Wisconsin moved its primary from April to February so that our primary vote actually counted this time. In other years, the decision has been made before we got to cast our vote. I like having the primaries spread out a bit, to allow for more information about the candidates to get out. But I am sure that those who have late primaries get frustrated just like we did, when the pollsters and the media make it clear who will win. Seems as though it's not worth it to vote then.

Actually, my biggest frustration with primaries is with state and local elections. Often there is a primary for a state office in the party I prefer, but on the local level there is a primary for a local office that will be decided in that primary because there is no one from the opposing party running. Where I live it is predominantely Republican, so local offices are usually filled by Republicans, and it's a matter of choosing which one. Either there is no Democrat or the Democrat doesn't have a chance. However, there may be a state or Congressional primary in the Democratic party - as it is often the same election, I have to choose the Republican ballot to make my choice for that local office.

N

I lived most of my voting life in Washington State. We didn't have to sign up for either party and still used caucuses. Since I have always been of an independent nature, I liked this system. It didn't give me an early vote, but it allowed me to pick and choose at the actual election, which I really liked. I rarely like candidates chosen by either party, by either method, so how they are chosen really doesn't worry me much.

Here in California, I am registered as independent, but I can choose to vote on either party's primary ballot, but not both.

Do you believe Blanket primaries to be a good idea? I would like to do this.
"Blanket primaries offer the widest possible participation. Voters are allowed to vote in both primary elections of the parties - i.e. at both the Republican and Democrat primary"
I see that both Al Sharpton and Dennis Kucinich are still in the race. I'm still trying to figure out why these two remain in the primaries. Could someone can enlighten me?
If you would like to take a look at CNN's "WHO'S IN, WHO'S OUT of both parties and read a short bio of the candidate by clicking on the name. Here you are
CNN

Bill H

To see the number of delegates each candidate has click on
Delegate Scorecard
There is an old Baseball saying "You can't tell the players without a scorecard."

Bill H

I think they are in the race but not...They are using the national platform the primary race provides to get their message out and to affect the Dem National agenda during the convention when they come up with the plateform...That is why I am suprised that Dean got out - but he may have another way he expects to affect the agenda that we have not heard yet - and there are folks that were around him that are trying to dig a grave for him - you have to ask what is that all about...

This is an interesting conversation, and it may give me a chance to vent a little. I agree that the media have far too much influence in forming public opinion. I wasn't a real Dean fan, but they killed him with the emphasis on the "screaming" speech. I can understand that he was just trying to rally the "troops" after a disappointing showing, but it was too "hot" a message for TV. Actually, one panelist on a talk show said she was in the room and it came across as quite natural. But the TV news shows seized that moment and played it to death, all the while decrying Dean's fit.

I also agree that we need to know the candidates' positions on as many of the issues as possible, as well what they plan to do about them. It seemed to me that in the last presidential debates (and campaigns) only two or three issues were ever addressed. I also deplore the concentration on non-issues like gay marriages or abortion. I want to know about how they are going to lead the country on the domestic and foreign fronts. And what they are going to do about the everi-escalating deficit.

HOW AMERICA DOESN'T VOTE

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/15/opinion/15SUN1.html

I am not sure what it was all about in more ways than one..unless they use Closed captioning I have no idea what is being said and HAVE to rely on what the newscaster is saying...which is why I read as much as possible ..although again you rarely are offered a chance to read the WHOLE of any speech etc And all I recall of the whole thing was the constant barrage of pictures of DEAN looking very angry...and someone telling me how bad that was. AGAIN what disturbs me is all I am getting is someone's opinion ..what they think anything means etc..it is troubling to me as a hearing impaired person to only recieve what the networks want to know and not what really happened..and that includes local programming..when there is a live at the site event there is no closed captioning.. and when we return to the newscaster all I see are Thanks so and so for that live report! While I can tell you how little true information I receive I am not sure hearing people do any better. Perhaps that is why many Americans dont vote..there is a feeling that all politicians are liars and manipulators..who make promises they know they cant keep ...I hate to be talked down to or placated. And most times I feel I am voting for what I percieve is the lessor of two evils...anna

Anna, I agree. I always feel like I'm being offered, in the primary here in Texas, a less than stellar list of people who promise to do things, if elected, as if they could, ALONE, keep those promises. You know, get elected, go to the legislature (local, state, or national) or the White House, and, poof!, all promises kept. I listen hard for people who tell me they will "try as hard as they can" to bring about the change necessary to keep the promises they've made on their take of the issues. That, at least, shows me they understand how the system works. That way, if elected, they don't waste precious time with on-the-job-training. I never vote for anyone who tells me he/she is NOT a politician. I WANT a politician. After all, they don't call it "politics" for nothing.

Howzat

Barbara, I don't think Dean is finished yet, either. I'm very sure we are going to hear more from him before this is all over.
MmeW, Welcome to the discussion. .Yes, we do need to know the candidates position on the issues that is why I am glad that Sharpton and Kucinich is staying in the Primary race. They will force the other two front runners to name the issues the espouse. However, I was watching the Dean rage at the very time it occurred. That was when I really began to be frightened of the guy. I didn't want any of that rage in the Whitehouse. It is true the TV news media played it over and over but I believe they wanted the voters to really see this guy and say "Do I really want him as president."
Jeriron, that link you gave us as "To How America Votes" gives substance to the thoughts I have had about the handling of the register of voters, especially in computer age. How easy it is for files to be conveniently lost. Voting in our country needs to be supervised much more closely than it is. I can't forget the 2000 election that took place in the state of Florida.
"as if they could, ALONE"
Howzat, you hit the nail right on the head. For a president to get his legislation enacted into law, he/she must also have substantial control of Congress. There is an old saying, "What Congress proposes the President disposes." And of course that works the other way around, too. Until we get true bipartisanship in the federal government we will be prevented from reaching the good social goals we so badly need.
Anna, I am truly sorry you have to depend on closed captioning because the Dean outburst was truly the entertaining highlight so far )

Bill H

Bill, You asked why candidates who obviously have no chance of winning stay in the primaries. I think it is so that they can influence the candidates who could win, and bargain their support in return for issues of interest to them and their constituents.

For example, Ralph Nader is now saying he might run again as an independent. He has no chance of winning, and did not have any chance in 2000 either. But many Democrats believe that Gore would have won at least three key states, and the presidency, if Nader had not siphoned off Democratic votes. The DNC is trying to persuade Nader not to run and have the same effect on the election in 2004. Perhaps Nader ran in 2000 so that he could have just this sort of bargaining power now for the issues that are important to him.

Since, in the U.S., the President is not elected by popular vote, this kind of strategic campaigning is quite common. I wonder how many of you think that the electoral process should be changed to more closely reflect the popular vote?

Think about this: Carl Rove has about 125 million dollars to date to use to elect bush in 2004.

How much of that do you think that he would be willing to "share" with Ralph Nader, to get him on the ticket as an Independent candidate?

Ralph Nader
Horselover, I was watching one of the cable news programs last night, I forget which one it was, and the commentator said that Ralph Nader did cost Gore the presidency. I do feel the popular vote should decide all elections. However, some of the less populated states would not have much of a say. There are mixed emotions about this.
"how much of that do you think that he would be willing to "share" with Ralph Nader..."
Dapphne, I share this opinion with you.
To read the complete article about Ralph Nader and the worry he is causing the Democrat Party, please use this link
Nader

Bill H

Dapphne, That's an interesting thought and might be a possible strategy, but I don't think Ralph Nader would be bribed by money. He's lived all his life in such a Spartan manner that his opponents have always had difficulty finding anything of that nature to use against him.

I corrected the last link: "Nader." Now instead of going to his picture, you will be taken to the article.

Bill H

The above photos are pictures of John Kerry, John Edwards and President Bush.
Which one of the two Democrat candidates would you like to see win the nomination?
In your opinion, which one of the candidates has the best chance of winning the presidential election?
Do you think either candidat could defeate President Bush?

Bill H

Bill, That was a very interesting article. I did not know that Nader was going to announce his intentions on "Meet the Press," and I will be sure to be watching. Nader is 70, so perhaps he should be encouraged to join us here at SN. )

Horselover, I also heard on this evenings news that Nader would be on "Meet the Press" tomorrow morning. Do you really want him here on SeniorNet? )

Bill H

Ralph Nader Lashes Back
by Lenora Todaro

Here's Nader's reply to the charges that he cost Gore the election:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0051/todaro.php

(Bill, You know every senior is welcome at SN.)

With Nader in we better all take a second hard look at Edwards - they are nullifying Kerry already since he has also taken special interest money - may not be near as much but the sound bite is what folks hear - another example of the media at work...

Since I am not a Repub - have never been curious to look up a Repub site but now I can easily understand how the Bush campaign has 6 million e-mail addresses - to my annoyance I receive an e-mail as well as daily pop ups - how - by virtue of my on-line browzer - they either purchased or just took our e-mail or how we connect to the internet for their address book...

All I can do is read ...and try to understand since most ads and many comments are not CC ...one thing I do firmly believe that the writers of our Constitution were really wise and patient ..working long and thinking hard about the future they were giving us...if popular vote was the rule you dont have to look far to see the most populous cities in the most populous states would be deciding who we called President..To me that would allow those states organized by whatever party the opportunity to change our whole system of government..and to ignore the states which have fewer people and by the way that would mean the greater portion of America...I dont even live in a state that would make the deciding vote...and whether I am right or wrong in my voting according to who others think I should do ..as long as we have the present system MY VOTE DOES COUNT and while I may or may not agree with whatever party wins or whomever is elected..I respect the voters and the system putting them in office. Before the next election I would work harder , give more of my income, have gatherings in my home to hear my candidate and help to get out the vote...EVEN if that means my candidate lost. As I see it we are already changing and watering down the intent of the founders of our country ....to me that is a slippery slope I dont want to see us on...anna

In response to your question, Bill, I think I would prefer Kerry. Whether he could win or not is debatable, for, as John Stewart said, "Northerners are willing to vote for a Southern candidate. Why won't Southerners vote for a Northern one?"

Anna, that is a very good explanation of why we have the electoral college. Your post shows me the dedication you have in casting your ballot. Good post.
Barbara, I , too, would find those every day e-mails and pop ups a horrible nuisance. Isn't there anything you can do to stop them?
MmeW. I'll have to think about John Stewart's quote.

Bill H

I am not sure that the electoral college is a good thing. While it may make a smaller state's vote more effective, does it not also decrease the effect of the majority vote? Smaller states were given a bigger voice in the senate and equal by population in the house. The majority of the tax base probably comes from the larger states or the most populated. Should their vote not be equal at least in a presidential election?

Ralph Nader announces he is in the race! You can read what he had to say by visiting here.
He's In
What are your thoughts on what he had to say in this article?
Horselover, yes, everyone is welcome on SeniorNet and if Ralph Nader would join SN I would be one of the first to welcome him.

Bill H

DorisA, you have made a good case for the popular vote as Anna did for the electoral college. This issue has been debated for so long a time with pro's and con's for each argument. It seems as though a perfect answer to our voting system is almost impossible to find. It may not be perfect but it is the best we have.

Bill H

A popular vote leads to many problems. One is of course that the more populated states have more power and in a Republic that should not be. Also look at those Democracies in South America..Whoa..they use the popular vote method and the power people buy or fix votes regularly especially if they have the army's behind them. OUr founding fathers wanted a Republic and that is what we need to keep.

I will say that the two(or more) party system has worked for nearly 300 years, primaries and all and we need not change it. Given the weight of these third party's to change elections they are not a bad thing. However Nadar's remarks in the above link dont make me want him to run. He has no party backing at this time. Truly he is an egotist and I think he is trying to throw the vote toward Kerry though he professes not to want either party's candidate.

I find it most interesting that Dean has 202 delegates. His appeal to young, educated new voters really impresses me. It is reminiscent of JFK & the way young voters were drawn to his view of what the political arena should be like. Dean wants to insure his voice is not drowned out and that the youth of American with unified voice can help change some issures in dire need of change.

And shouldnt the little guy in a small state with less tax base have an equal chance to vote for someone who would support him. As I view it the states with the most populace would control the country and in fact the businesses etc the large corporations would control the country ..to me that is why so many say we ought to have a popular vote...when I was young the precint committee men always offered my father money to get his family to vote the party ticket ..now this was the Democratic party .I am sure the Republican side did the same thing. The states with few voters would be disenfranchised. Thier vote would never count ...sorry I wouldnt do that to my fellow Americans. I want everyone's vote to count.........anna and if you check you will find most of the time whomever is elected did recieve the popular vote. I was just checking this the other day and forgive me but if I my memory fails but it seems it has happened only 2 times 3 at the most..that isnt bad for number of years we have been a republic. This way the politicians have to consider ALL the states ..if you lived in a small less populated state believe me you would never see a politician for he would know if he promised the large populated states whey they wanted ....then he could ignore you ...anna

With Al Sharpton and Dennis Kucinich still in the race, This Thursday night's candidate debate, hosted by Larry King, promises to be very lively. Al Sharpton makes any debate lively. Please check your local TV listings for time and channel

Bill H

In arguing the pros and cons of the electoral college, we should keep in mind that the way the system works today is not what the founding fathers designed. The operation of the electoral college has already been modoified by the 12th amendment to the Constitution, and has been further modified by Congress and state legislatures. It's true, we don't want the majority to trample over the rights of minorities. But we have the Senate as a check on that. Every state, regardless of size or population has two senators.

This electoral college system was originally designed before political parties existed, and before many people had the right to vote. Then changes extended the right to vote to the common man which led to the national convention system of nominating candidates for President. The modifications to the electoral college have tried to account for some of the flaws in the system without abandoning it entirely. But despite the fact that some people think this system makes their vote count more, there is no Constitutional provision or Federal law that requires electors to vote according to the results of the popular vote in their States. An elector can nullify the results of the election and vote for whomever (s)he pleases.

Senator Hillary Clinton
Would Hillary Clinton accept the VP spot on the Democrat ticket? The link I will provide for you takes you to an article giving several reasons why she should.
But first I would like to ask all you ladies a question.
Do you believe the vast majority of women voters of both parties would vote to make Hillary Clinton the first woman Vice President? After all, this would be a giant step towards a woman president.
If you are a member of the Republican party would you vote the Democratic ticket for her?
If you are a member of the Democrat party would you still vote Democrat in the presidential election?
Please let us know how you feel. To read the article please click
Vice President

Bill H

We've been down that road - do we want to win or make a statement - Hillory maybe popular but she also has too many who would not vote for a Dem pres. nominee if she were on the ticket - also it is easier to see her paired up with Kerry but could you see her paired up with Edwards - if not than she is not good for the ticket.

I don't think it is important how I would vote (because I would vote for her) what is important is how people got all upset because she said "I guess I could have stayed home and baked cookies" Even though we are now in the 21st century I still think both men and women, not all of course would rather have a lets say First Lady be like Laura Bush who basically just stands behind her man. So I'm not so sure even now this country is ready to admit that a woman can do the job of VP as well as a man. It kind of makes us behind the times.

Often times in these primaries President Bush's National Guard record during the Vietnam war has been brought up by some of the candidates. In your opinion, should this issue have been brought to the fore, and do you believe it will influence the out come of the presidential election.
You can determine for yourself by reading the CNN article the link take you too. It does take several seconds to load so hang in there.
Bush's Military Payroll Records

Bill H

Do we need a third party? You can cast your vote by clicking
Do We Need Another Choice
It is interesting the article gives you a chance to vote.

Bill H

Ginger, I feel a lot of women would vote that ticket. I believe a woman VP would advance the prestige of women in our country and would probably open top corporate positions more than now. Perhaps it would do away with the "Glass Ceiling."

Bill H

Yep and the Repubs would have a field day with her - Look at our last female vice president elect and she was respected by most...

Hillary, has shown us that she can come thru any trials and tribulations I think she is a Very strong person, with her I hope we can put the working class people in Our country back to work as that is what we Need to do to stabilize the good ole USA.

Bill What say You?

Ginger, she is a very strong woman, with strong convictons. She had to be strong to put up with Bill )

Bill H

Due to my last Husband abusing My daughter by hiting her.

Ginger, I am very sorry to hear that. He must have been a real bummer.

Bill H

People complained that she should have left him but if she did they would have complained that that was the wrong thing to do while they were still in the White House. No matter what she would have been damned if she did and damned if she didn't.

Gor blimey, you guys really get with it. I don't have an answer for the electoral college vs. popular vote argument, for I can see both sides. Nonetheless, it seems to me that the e.c. doesn't really work even if it is only two or three who have lost the election because of it, especially if some maverick can go in there (wherever there is) and throw a monkey wrench in the works by voting however he wants (and never say never).

I may just be an idealist, but I don't see Nader as egotist, but rather as an idealist with blinders on. A lot of what he says makes sense--I watched him on Russert's show on Sunday. That said, I had a marvelous soc sci prof in college (in Texas) who said there was a candidate in the upcoming senate elections who stood for everything he believed in, but he was forced to vote for another man (ironically enough, I think it was Jim Wright) who was more likely to be able to put some of his beliefs into action because he was more willing to compromise.

About GWB's military service: what I don't think people now understand is that the National Guard was a way of avoiding the draft back then. Besides, I have deep suspicions of something just "recently discovered." (from the article: "McClellan said the payroll records were recently discovered at the Air Reserve Personnel Center in Colorado.")

Re Hillary: I do think the key is electibility, and she seems to be one of those people about whom everyone feels strongly one way or another: they either hate her or love her. Unfortunately, I don't think that's what the Dems (or women) need at this point.

look what you and I think about Hillary is one thing but if you put your ear out there are many who will rip her to shreds for either just being a Clinton to not leaving him or that she will be a front for him and they can bring up all the dirt on her law practice all over again - she is a lightening rod for the religious right and the health care folks will put their money behind who ever she is running against since they do not want her picking up that folder again.

This time I am more concerned with getting Bush out than I am making a statement - and I want someone in there that is not fighting for themselves but rather is free to fight for the election of a new Pres.

Barbara, I totally agree with you. Incidentally, we've just come back from a long weekend in the Valley (Rio Grande Valley in South Texas to everybody else) and got a great education on your recent "Perrymandering" redistricting. We saw a map of some of the districts in the San Antonio paper and they're absolutely incredible.

The rest of you may remember when the Democrats from the State Legislature left the state (once to OK and once to NM) to prevent the Republicans from doing just this sort of redistricting. It's really amazing!

I know - what they did to Austin is a crime - my vote will have no value what so ever - my wonderful representative is no longer my rep and is fighting for his life in this narrow strip that isn't even a mile wide in a few areas that extend from the middle of south east Austin to the border of Mexico - there is another that is the same ribbon going from North Austin to the other side of Houston - they have completely broken the back of the Dem party that had its greatest strength here in Austin with San Antonio bringing up a strong second.

The debate is no longer about issues or people who want the office but what can be done to tweek the system wether it is jerrymander the vote or rig the vote by changing the status of folks as their vote is or not counted -

Yes, I am an angry Dean supporter who is more about taking back this nation than if some one has the "Statue" to be elected - it is nice to be tall but if this man who rides so tall doesn't move the Dogies along soon we will never get to Kansas (Washington D.C.)

I still think we need a rable rouser to get us moving and now that our rable rouser is back in Vermont everything is quiet again - hopefully he comes up with a plan to help us do what it takes to retire Bush to his cattleman's front porch where he can play domino and spit while his hands paint a big flag on his barn roof.

Barbara, my aunt lives in Weslaco and my cousin is a long-time Edinburg resident - so they're suffering in your district, too.

If Kerry gets the nomination and he probablly will I think Edwards would be good on the ticket. Coming from the south he would be a big help to Kerry.

I just hope Bush has shot himself in the foot with this Constitutional amendment proposal, once more attempting to divert discussion from real issues to non-issues. Instinctively I think it flies in the face of separation of church and state, even if marriage is a civil ceremony. Just saw an old excerpt of Cheney saying he thought the government should stay out of the marriage business. Guess he changed his mind.

I don't think enough voters would chose Hillary for either president or vice president in the 2004 election. She is too contraversial. With more experience logged in the senate, the 2008 elections might be different ball game for her.

With "Perrymandering" I no longer have representation, or any hope of it in the future, in the United States Senate. My "view" on my country IS represented in the House of Representatives, but my congress lady is so overwhelmed by opposition as to be almost useless.

I view the coming elections with sad heart. My poor country. My poor country.

Howzat

Bush has done just what the Christian right wanted him to do and that is exactly why he is doing it. Their vote.

He has their vote anyway.

This new movie will rally the Christian Right troops and so Bush is looking at an easy win with all those folks in his hip pocket - the more controversy this movie - the more the folks that are pushing for it to be seen will feel connected to that movement - many a church member who may not have planned on seeing it is feeling the pressure of other church members to see it and become part of the brigade for Christian Right issues to be in the forefront - and anyone promising those issues will be listened to and enacted upon gives them a ticket to the white house...

Recent polls show the gay marriage issue could be a winner for Bush, who has long courted Christian conservatives as a key element of his political base.

Here is a poll on CNN.com/Lou..... \

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight....

There are not enough christian conservatives on the far right in this country to elect bush

Same Sex Marriage
I was going to post the following questions before I read your most recent messages on this sensitive issue However I will still post them because I am interested in hearing you answers to these questions.
Do you favor or oppose same sex marriage?
Do you favor or oppose a Constitutional ban barring same sex marriage?
Should same sex marriage partners be elligible to adopt children?
Would the adopted children of same sex partners be adversely affected by same sex parents?
I am a heterosexual male, and I was married to a lovely woman who is now deceased. I realize I should keep an open mind on this very sensitive issue, but it is difficult to shed my religious teachings and my parental guidance and upbringing. I suppose what I am trying to say is: "You can't teach an old dog new tricks." )

Bill H

Bill H - re your questions:

[Do you favor or oppose same sex marriage?] I don't have any strong feelings for or against.

[Do you favor or oppose a Constitutional ban barring same sex marriage?] Absolutely not!

[Should same sex marriage partners be eligible to adopt children?] I see no reason why not. The important thing to children is to have a safe, loving, stable home environment.

[Would the adopted children of same sex partners be adversely affected by same sex parents?] I don't see why they would necessarily be more adversely affected than by different sex parents.

BILL - I am for same sex marriage rights and against Bush meddling with the constitution in any way, especially to force it to back his personal religious beliefs. My older brother is gay. He was married for several years to a woman, raised two fine boys, then she divorced him after he told her. For him, no longer having one night stands and being free to form a long term partnership came just in time before AIDS became a high risk. So I say it is wise for this country to encourage gays (I'm thinking of the men here) to marry and stay monogomous. This has to be good in preventing the very expensive for taxpayers, spread of AIDS. I believe gay partners of many years should have the same rights as everyone else when one partner is in intensive care or at the time of death. Now, many places only allow family members to visit or make decisions, which can put the very parents who disowned their own child years earlier in the position of having rights a partner of many years doesn't.

One reason for gay partners having adoption rights is so the partner who wasn't an actual parent for the child they are raising could adopt, giving the kid a legal parent if something happens to the birth parent of the two. Often these two are the only parents the kid has. This also gives support responsibilities and visitation rights in case the two do split up, things which should be good for the kid. Oh, and I wouldn't worry about kids with gay parents becoming gay because of their parents. After all, most all gay people were raised in families with two straight parents, tremedous peer pressure to partner with the opposite sex, etc., yet they turned out gay. We don't yet understand the cause of homosexuality, but it is a good bet it isn't gay parents very often.

I agree with everything that Benjamin said in his post. My son-in-laws brother was gay.( he died about 7 years ago from Aids) He was a medic in Vietnam and won a purple heart. I doubt that anyone that needed help there refused his.

I remeber a friend of his having his sisters picture on his desk and took her to all the parties they had as his girlfriend. He always felt he would lose his job in a bank if they new he was gay. I think that is sad. No one would choose to be gay. It is so hard for them. It's only in recent years that some and not all have "come out of the closet"

I saw someome on CNN from Republican gay group called "Log Cabin" that are really furious with Bush. He has obviously lost their vote.

I think any two people of any gender, of any color or race, of any religion should be able to marry, in a church, in a park, at the court house, on a mountain top, on ships at sea, or in their homes (pick your own place) as long as they profess this intention by buying a marriage license.

Howzat

I am wondering what the influence of childhood could possibly be that would be a knee jerk influence as a grown man or women - I know I was not sheltered when it came to sex - I had heard of men interested in other men because there was the story of a man interested in my father and it made him so angry he put his fist through the wall - that was back before sheetrock - but I really didn't hear or understand it to be more than some men were not interested in other men -

But then before the end of WW2 we joked privatly about sex but never spoke openly about sex of any kind - heck when my mother was pregnant in '39 it was still a time when pregnant women could not be seen on the street and here I was going into the first grade that fall but in the Spring I did all the family shopping - and so it befuddles me what anyone could learn about homosexuals back in the 30s and 40s, even the early 50s that the learning could make them uncomfortable as an adult.

As to children - we went through this with a couple from a mixed race marriage adopting children - everytime we are concerned with seeing folks who look different than our picture of what we think a couple should look like we bring up the children -

Most kids have no concern - they want and need love and care, that certainly, they do not receive in an orphanage and the horrors of the greater percentage receive in foster care negate that as a loving experience - also the concept of being in foster care for your entire childhood - as compared to a home where folks care about you - seems to me that is obvious - homosexual behavior is not a virus that they kids can catch and if they are not homosexual when they were born they adapt the usual heterosexual needs. As to observed behavior - how many kids even know what their heterosexual parents love life is like - and needs outrun observed behavior every time.

I still cannot figure out those who site the Bible what it is that they are saying is so wrong - if it is the act, than hay we can use the Bible to justify any behavior on both sides of the spectrum, including INcest - I know it was quoted to me paragraph and verse in order to justify that behavior - so to use the Bible as a measure of sexual activity - there is a lot wanting -

That gang that chose what and how to put together the King James If they had more concern for the future behavior of the faithful and less concern with their infighting, politics and the valued lusciousness of the times, maybe the Bible today could be a model to determane sexual behavior, but as it is - whow - a combination a Larry Flint publication and puritanical reaction where it was a good political move among the various religious who were gathered to translate and choose what to put in the book.

If Hillary wants to run for President in 2008, she would be wise not to help any Democratic candidate get elected, since he would then be running for reelection in 2008. Of course, this may turn out to be the case anyhow. If she remained on the ticket in 2008 and the Democratic President was reelected, she could have a chance to run in 2012. But if she ran for Vice President and the Democratic ticket was defeated, she may have buried her chance to be President altogether. Remember what happened to the last woman who ran for VP and was defeated.

And even if she was elected VP in 2004, her chances of being elected President would depend on what she was allowed to do as VP. The VP actually has no specific job except to be available in case the President dies or becomes incapacitated. Everything else is at the discretion of the President. He could allow her to be an active VP, or help her become invisible. On the other hand, if she remained in the Senate, she would be in charge of her own record of accomplishment and her own public relations. Hillary is a saavy politician who has been at this for many years now. She is probably weighing all the pros and cons very carefully.
______________________________________________________________________

I think the rules regarding same sex unions should remain with the states. The population makeup is so different in many parts of the country that any attempt to amend the Constitution would produce years of division. And an issue that has religious overtones should not be part of the Constitution that mandates a separation of church and state.

I don't agree with the reasoning that allowing same sex marriages would encourage monogamy and prevent AIDS. Marriage has not encouraged monogamy among heterosexuals. The divorce rate has been steadily rising and is now at 50%. Better to support same sex unions on the grounds of equality of access to the legal benefits of state recognized unions.

Benjamin and Jeriron, you both make strong points for same sex marriage. I heard on the news last night that VP Cheney's daughter is an openly confessed gay. Is this true? However, the VP said he will back the President in his views on this subject.
Barbara, I am not entirely sure that the adopted children of same sex marriage wouldn't be emotionally affected by parents by this partnership. I will cite one example: The schools in my neighborhood have parent/teacher/children night two or three times a school year. On these nights the aforementioned mingle. Now, there is one little girl in third grade of one of the schools who is reluctant to attend these meeting because her father is deceased and she feels different from the other kids in her grade.
I imagine children in the very early years of grade school are very impressionable and I believe adopted children of same sex partners will feel "different" from other kids. After all, the vast majority of the other children will have heterosexual parents. These children will have to have some emotions when they see this.
Then, too, will growing up in a home with same sex parents and the friends who visit their parents have an influence on their thinking about whom they should cohabitate with. There is such a thing as "Learned Behavior." Also how would a heterosexual married couple feel about their children making friends of children of same sex partners. . I don't believe they would be to happy about sleep overs.
I'm more concerned about the adopted children of same sex partners than I am about the partners.
However, all I can say on this subject is "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet," or something like that.

Bill H

Bill there is no learned cohabitate behavior unless you are gay - if you are heterosexual your need for expression far exceeds any observed behavior to the contrary...

And if a child feels different because of their parenting it is because the community has made the child feel different...years ago if your parents didn't speak English because they were immigrants you felt different and shamed - then if you were black or Jewish or Oriental in a predomenatly white school you felt ashamed to bring your parents to school - all these children's shame is based on the communities lack of acceptance - not because the child is innately ashamed. It is up to the adults of a community to take the lead to assure a child is not shamed - the other children only follow the example of the other adults...

My mother was widowed when I was quite young. When she re-married I had parents with different last names than mine and my brother. I felt less a family than all my friends who shared last names with the rest of their families. Nothing at all was done by my friends or community to make me feel this way - it was just me. But I think most kids have an extraordinary need to feel alike. Life doesn't allow this in most cases, for one reason or another, and perhaps it's best to just learn to deal with it. I finally did.

...as for me I say don't mess with my Constitution, and why would anyone want to get married.

Bill Yes Cheneys daughter is gay and as you said he is backing the President. That just shows where is loyalties are.

cheney is a heartless cold fish. Can't expect any more from hin.

New York Times endorses John Kerry

INTERESTING ARTICLE, MAL.

IMHO, I OPPOSE ANY CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT THAT WOULD LOCK THIS COUNTRY INTO APPROACHING LEGAL MATTERS AT THE SUPREME COURT LEVEL BEFORE EVEN THINKING ABOUT STATE LEVELS. A GAY MARRIAG BAN AMENDMENT IS MORE RELIGIOUS THAN CIVIL AND WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SUPPORTING ANYONE'S CHOICE OF FAITH PREFERENCES.

I BELIEVE THAT I READ THAT THERE ARE STILL SOME STATES WHICH BAN CERTAIN SEXUAL PRACTICES. THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANT MY GOVERNMENT TO BE DECIDING FOR ANYONE AS LONG AS THOSE PRACTICES REMAIN IN THE PRIVACY OF THE BEDROOM AND DON'T HARM THE PARTIES INVOLVED AND DON'T INCLUDE CHILDREN.

I can’t imagine the misery that it must be (and have been) to grow up gay. No one would choose that. And I can’t help but feel that we have all known/been related to gays whether we know it or not. I say committed couples of any sex deserve to marry not only for personal reasons, but as Horselover says, for equality of access to legal benefits.

To amend the Constitution on a whim for the purpose of a definition, especially one that restricts rights, is ludicrous (since the governator, there has even been talk of amending it to allow non-nativeborn Americans to run for President).

BILL - Your reasons - worrying about kids adopted by a gay partner - sound a lot like my reasons for discouraging my daughters from having any mixed race kids. When they were little and liked to play with the boys in a black family, mixed race kids caught H___ in school. I told them raising a mixed race kid would break my heart because of that expected discrimination. Now, thirty five years later, one of my daughters has a half black teen-age son. He is tall, very good looking and quite popular enough I don't worry about his social development at all. The reason is society is different than it was. I wasn't wrong for my times, but things have changed.

couldn't agree more Ben - my sister has a mixed race son who is now in his twenties and who has married a beautiful young women whose heritage is a mix of mediterranean countries - they are a stricking couple with a real sense of who they are since they had to strike out on their own as children because at times they had to handle issues of being different.

Fear of differences can so easily mess us up to think what we fear is not right - I know I become too easily impatient with the thinking that keeps us from bringing everyone into the tent - I am reminded it was not too many years ago when we were all so afraid of those who had AIDS that young lovable children were not hugged much less accepted in schools.

Tonight, Feb, 26,9:PM Eastern time, CNN's Larry King will moderate the candidates presidential debate between Kerry, Howard, Sharpton and Kucinich. I'll be tuned in on it. I always find them very entertaining.

Bill H

Ben and Barbara, your points are well taken. I have no problem with interracial marriages or the children of these marriages. However, I feel homosexual or lesbian partnerships (marriage) are not the same as interracial matrimony. The partners of these marriages can never birth a child of their own, and this in itself is unnatural. I realize there are some heterosexual married couples that are unable to have children, but this is the exception rather than the rule of nature otherwise the human race would have expired. All creatures great and small propagate the continuance of their own kind in the way nature intended. However, I must say, I dislike seeing this issue become a political football to be kicked around in the hope it will enhance the election for one or the other.
Mal I enjoyed reading that article.
Don't forget to tune into the candidate debate tonight at 9:PM Eastern on CNN for the ongoing saga.

Bill H

Rosie O'Donnald and her long time female partner got married in San Fransico today.

They have four children together.

Oh dear Bill but they can and have -- "birthed a child of their own," naturally. - Interesting how this issue has become a political hot potato - I cannot tell if the issue is social, economic, religious or legal. I think many of us have an idea of how man and women should behave and when we learn there are other sexual appetities we are made uncomfortable - I am more concerned with the heterosexuals that cannot keep their zipper up - but then that is more an issue of power - taking what they want when they want it regardless what the girl or women wants. - ah so lots of issues around sex that could fill this discussion for weeks to come - and since politics is simply the methods or tactics used to manage or maneuver within a group that when the group is of sufficiant size they usually have a written document which provides for a system of law, principles and limits to the representative governing body I guess any issue that affects the group becomes political -

ah so...it is so much easier isn't it when we all agree but then this nation was founded by folks who did not agree with the governing bodies in Europe and later folks who did not agree with the governing bodies of nations all over the world. Seems to me the only folks who did not come to escape something they did not like were Black folks who were brought here as slaves like it or not.

Barbara, If you are referring to artificial insemination, or if one of the partners copulate with another individual of the opposite sex, then I concede this is possible, but only one of the partners is involved. The other partner has nothing to do with the actual conception of life that takes place. Is that what you meant? Because it is impossible for two men or two women to conceive together.

Bill H

Yes Bill artificial insemination and then so many were married to the opposite sex and now have children that their new life style is the basis of the children's parenting - these kids do not want to be ripped from either their father or their mother whoever is living in the new relationship.

Bill, You said children will feel different because "the vast majority of the other children will have heterosexual parents." Actually, the majority of children these days will probably have divorced parents. And while it may be difficult for some children to deal with divorce, or the death of a parent, we all have to learn to accept what life deals out. Children may feel different if they are overweight (a much more serious problem affecting their health), or if they have a noticeable disability. We can't make laws to provide children with cookie cutter lives.

As for "learned behavior," most homosexuals had heterosexual parents. And there is no evidence that children raised by homosexuals, in a loving home, become homosexual themselves. There are so many children in need of a stable home who would be better off with a loving couple of either sex than in a state-run orphanage or a succession of foster homes. Are we really worried about these children or about having to let go of long-held traditional beliefs?

I do not want any messing around with the constitution over "moral" issues and that is the basis of this prejudice against homosexual marriage. There are no effective arguments against such a marriage except religious or moral and you cant prove to me that homosexuality in and of itself is immoral. Just because it has never been in "civil" law before is no reason for it not to be a civil law. Governed by States in my opinion would be best.

Before the 1500 there was no such thing as civil law regarding marriage...just church laws and these were often only obeyed by active Christians. Many cultures still do not have what we call Civil Union of Marriage. The Civil law was developed because the Crown wanted the money it saw going to Church's for a tax on marriage. So they began making the laws of issuing licenses for legal civil marriage and these laws grew. I am speaking here of things I learned about the history of civil law in Great Britain and subsequently the United States.

As to children, I have read some very interesting statements here regarding children such as "most homosexual children are raised by hetero sexual couples." and the "child will feel different because he has different home life" well I felt different because most children in my town had two parents and I had one in the home. Also think of all the house holds where step parents that are raising children sometimes a child this day and age has <three sets of parents including all the steps as do some of my grandchildren. This of course is because of divorce and remarriage of these parents.

The major issue is that I do not want the Government putting laws in the federal constitution on morality and such religious issues as homosexual marriage. fr

The problem that many people have is giving up what they consider the fundamental beliefs of the United States. It doesn't seem to occur to them that some or many of us may believe that a stable homelife with GOOD MORAL parents of any sexual preference is better than growing up being shipped from one foster home to another.

For me, amending the constitution so that same sex relationships are not allowed just opens the door for more and more laws to be passed concerning this subject. And there we will be, all tied up in the law, once more. Look what has happened with abortion? The lawyers are getting rich and I would bet that they are salavating over this newest suggestion of an amendment to our constitution. Good grief!!

to me frothing at the mouth as we are about this issue is probably just a topic of conversation since it would take forever to actually have a great enough consensus to amend the constitution - the concern I have is when serious money gets behind an issue things can happen - and this bid to allow other than a citizen to become president hmmmm we not only have his money but probably the Kennedy and Shriver contacts and money behind that one...all they have to do is influence those in power and voila...

Illegal immigrants
Last night I watched the Democrat party primary candidate debate moderated by CNN's Larry King. The issue of illegal immigrants and legal immigrants was BRIEFLY brought up during the debate. Each of the four candidates handled it like a steaming hot potato. Each candidate made a short vanilla like statement regarding this issue and that was all. None of them made a definite statement.
How do you feel about the problem of illegal immigrants?
Should they be granted amnesty as has has suggested?
They want the right to vote even without amnesty. They claim they are helping the economy by working and spending the money they earn. Should they be given the right to vote.?
What a complex problem this is because the children of the illegal immigrants born in this country are U.S. citizens.

Bill H

Why should people who commit a crime (illegal entry) be given any privileges? Why should those people who hire them not be fined for doing so? A very loud no to amnesty or the right to vote. Surely a system can be arranged to permit people to enter this country to fill the jobs that are available in a legal manner.

Only citizens should have the right to vote.

I don't agree with blanket amnesty. I think illegals should have to leave the country and return with legal status to be given any benefits. But, as Bill mentioned about the children of illegals, there are never any easy answers to these complex questions.

Corporations are addicted to cheap labor. They are the ones who are benefiting from illegal immigration. But their benefit comes at the American tax payer's expense; the tax payer is subsidizing the labor costs of these corporations by supplying the illegal foreign workers and their families with welfare, free education, free medical, housing assistance, etc. -- something the corporations won't do.

Americans would do the work that illegals do for fair compensation and benefits. Some people say that this would only result in higher prices for consumers. But more workers with jobs at higher pay would improve the economy in the long run.

Many illegals do not receive a typical paycheck with tax deductions. They are paid in cash and do not pay taxes. And even when they do pay taxes (only possible if they use fraudulent social security numbers), their artificially low income is not enough to pay for medical expenses and all the expenses required for their children. Many hospitals and school districts are going broke trying to provide services for these families.

And finally, making it easier for illegal workers to enter the country and stay for long periods of time can also make it easier for sleeper terrorists to do the same thing.

illegal workers also send most money back to the country they came from.

About a month or so ago I watched the network nightly TV news covering the illegal immigrant situation in California. The spokesperson for that community said he wants the name "illegal aliens" changed to "undocumented aliens." He threatened a boycott of goods and said the boycott would affect the economy of the state of California. It seems as though they have the strength in numbers to gain what they want.
Oh, by the way, they do have driving privileges. So it is apparent that local, state and federal governments know who they are.
What can be done. Boarder patrol need to be strengthened but do to ballooning deficits there are insufficient funds to do so.

Bill H

What happened to our armed services guarding our borders? Isn't that what they are really there for?? There was a funny man, Ludlow Porch, on the radio in Atlanta who always said that the government should only do two things--guard our borders/country and run the post office. I love that statement! Having lived in California for few years, I saw the mess that they were in down in San Diego. And, the same situation exists in Texas. I know no answers to this problem.

I just finished reading a Freidman column from the NYT about the problem of outsourcing to other countries, mainly India, at much lower salaries. Since all this became prevalent, Dell Computer has had so many complaints they have returned their American customers to US Dell service departments. Indiana's governor has cancelled their contracts with India for outsourcing and is bringing the business back to the state and the people who need jobs there.

The reason that I bring this up, is that I wondered if those aliens could find good paying jobs in their own countries if they would even be here. And, does outsourcing to their countries by the US help keep them at home where they would prefer to be?

This a big can worms and I am not too sure that Bush is not just trying to get more votes with his call for amnesty.

As to an amendment, don't the states have to vote on each amendment? And, didn't I just hear, that 33 states already have a ban on same sex marriage?? or is the other way around?

As I have said in several other sites I have a recalcitrant computer. It keeps dumping me or telling me I have through it done something illegal for which I shall be punished by computer and not allowed to post etc...It is such a chore to do so I have almost given up..today one of my Sons in law returns to try and make it behave...I will refrain from making any comment about any posts until I can read them all..but as usual I want very much to put in my 2% worth ..but will wait...anna

Ann, you asked why our armed forces are not guarding our border. Well. most of them are in Iraq or other parts of the world. There isn't enough to go around now, <p. Yes, Ann, an amendment to the Constitution must be approved by two thirds of the House and two thirds of the Senate. and then ratified by either 33 or 38 states. This was brought out Wednesday night by one of the network news programs. Therefore, I don't believe the Bush proposed amendment has the chance of the proverbial snow ball of becoming an amendment.
OK, Anna, we will wait for you to post.

Bill H

Post your computer problems on the SeniorNet site in the appropiate folder in this group. We solve a lot of problems.Here is a link

http://discussions.seniornet.org/cgi-bin/WebX?13@@.ee6eedc,p. Now back to the primaries.

Bill: That's exactly what it is but it keeps a nation, numbed by political slogans and promises, off topics that could send the president-select and cabal back to their estates come January. Add to that our fascination with bare breasts (or our collective reaction to them...), plus a movie being blasted by some and lauded by others (we haven't heard from the Romans yet...), our unfortunately short attention spans are put to the test.

The root evil of the election circus is the enormous span of time that it is in town: From the moment the donkeys and elephants come off the train, we have to suffer through up to two years of stale performances and shoveling their mierde. Some countries allow only two or three months for electioneering while our Congress is in a permanent state of one kind or another. Add to that the city and county servants who want to feed from the public trough for as much of their professional lives as possible (or allowed!), it can be said that our most important industry is that of campaigning for public office.

This is - incidentally - the kind of democracy we seem to be bent on installing in the Middle East.

Gunther,welcome to the discussion. Very well said. I applaud your post. At times these primaries remind me of a Barnum and Bailey circus complete with elephants, donkeys, and CLOWNS. We even have tight rope walkers trying to balance their act so as not to offend any group of voters.

Bill H

We have to assure a well entertained media

Barbara, I believe they are doing that )
Ann, I found this about amending the Constitution.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Therefore, it would take 38 states to ratify. I had my trusty calculator do the math. This is in addition to the necessary two thirds of the votes in both Houses.

Bill H

Let's face it....

When we are talking about the civil rights issue on whether gays cays can marry, we are ignoring all of the other injustices going on right now, like the lies told to get us into war in Iraq and the Haitian crisis right now going on in our own hemisphere..

These are only two issues.. There are many, many more.

Hate to sound like a sore looser but have y'all noticed ever since Dean went home all the air has been sucked out of the Dems message and the campaign is this change in subject that is keeping us from thinking of the very things you bring up dapphne - divide and conquer - that is the plan since keeping us in fear no longer works...

For looking up the rules for changing our constitution. Not as simple as Bush makes it sound so probably it wouldn't pass muster. Wonder if he knows these rules?

And, speaking of this, I offer two of the op-ed pieces in the NYT today which cover this topic.

How the Judges Forced the President's Hand

Joining the Debate But Missing the Point

thank you Ann, most interesting, huh? Two valid arguments are well presented.

Thank you, Ann, for those two links. As Alf said," Two valid arguments are well presented."
Today brings a close to the Curious Mind's Primaries 2004 discussion. I thank all of you who participated in the discussion. Your posts were very interesting and said in an informative, and courteous manner. I thank you for the courtesy you displayed even though your feelings on a subject may have differed from other participants. The interest you have shown here will enable this Curious Minds discussion to take its place alongside all the other great CM discussions. Thank you.
Ginny says...
"… Since the PBS Program Clubs will open on March 1 with Judy and the Flu (sounds like a rock group?) then the CM will give a link to that and it will take the place of CM until Barbara resumes at the end of the month?"
I'm sure Barbara will resume with another great CM discussion.
As most of you know our Lorrie died last week. Lorrie was the Curious Minds coordinator for a very long time and she kept these discussions moving along smoothly. Believe me when I say that was not easy to do. We all know she was a first class person and we will all miss her.
Therefore, I would like to dedicate this discussion to the memory of
Lorrie Gorg.

Bill H

For Lorrie
Goodbye, Old Friend

Bill H

Thanks, Bill, for a great job with what could've been a contentious discussion. It was a good one!

Thanks for a super discussion, expressly for your leading of it and of course, for the dedication of it to our dear friend, Lorrie. She is missed!!

It was a great discussion and I am sorry my computer didnt work when I wanted it and needed it..It is still not right and my son in law tells me as soon as I put my files on disks he will reformat my hard drive...that scares me but he says I have to do it since I have some damaged files and they are what is keeping this computer from working properly...

For all of us who knew and loved Lorrie..SN will never be the same..for those who never knew her ...they are poorer for a loss they are not aware of..anna

Thank you, BILL.

I met Lorrie a long time ago on AOL, and have dedicated the March-April issue of Sonata to her memory. There are two stories by her in this issue. Click the link below to read them.

Sonata Mal

The two stories Very good, I apprieciate you having dedicated the March-April issue of Sonata to Lorries memory.

How lovely to see these tributes to Lorrie, our departed friend, we miss her so much, I can't believe she's gone and what a fabulous discussion, Bill. Due to the illness of Tiger Tom Curious Minds will now merge for the first of March with PBS Killer Flu and that's some program. Have you all had the flu this season? Did you get a flu shot? Did it work?

How can you AVOID getting sick, do you have any tips or secrets?

Have you ever heard of that Killer Flu of 1918, are there any family stories you remember?

Do you know what actually CAUSED it? You will be shocked and it does not bode well for us in 2004?

The program airs Wednesday night on PBS we hope you will be watching and come talk to us about it, it's like a CSI, fascinating but what they find out is stunning.

Could we ever again have a plague or Killer Flu in 2004?

Do you know what the dirtiest thing in your own house is? How about in a public restroom?

Come on over and talk to us about the flu!

ginny