Curious Minds ~ 2006 September Export

Curious Minds
A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews
Every other week we'll link to a new and noteworthy article of interest for discussion
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What's Up Doc? What's in Your Bag?

"States must have the clear right to seize property, ration vaccine, and carry out forced vaccinations and other medical assistance if necessary. Public health officials should be given the right as well to make life and death decisions, like who gets treated and who doesn't in the event of an epidemic or some other catastrophe brought on by an act of terrorism." New Tool In Anti-Terror Fight

New Trends ~ New Technology ~ New Issues

"To ration health care is to withhold at least some medical services from at least some individuals who would probably benefit from them, because we have decided not to buy those services for everybody who needs them." ~ Health care rationing

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Electronic medical records
The sky-high cost of staying alive
Could walk-in retail clinics help slow rising health costs?
A Medical Crisis of Conscience

Discussion Leader: Pedln

pedln - 02:24pm Sep 6, 2006 PT (#1)
DL, Books; On the Mississippi River at the only inland "Cape"

The thing is, it isn't just the doc any more, or the bag -- though lots of new things are in it. Our health and medical world is changing, evolving, just not your mother's health care any more. Some of the things we come across today didn't exist five years ago or they weren't very commonplace.

So welcome to our September Curious Minds -- A Medical Potpourri -- where we can talk about some of the changes taking place in our health care today. Things like --

Electronic Medical Records -- beneficial or not?
Drop-in retail clinics -- Have you seen one, in Walmart or Walgreens?
8The high cost of staying alive -- is the high price worth it for a few months?
Disaster preparedness / Anti-terrorism -- Who makes the decisions and does location matter?
Rationing and the fight for limited resources -- how does one decide? by age? condition?
A Medical Conscience -- they won't treat you because . .?

not to mention beneficial, though provocative or controversial medical achievements. No doubt you can add to this list.

There are several links in the heading which explore these topics further, and I hope you will scan through one or two of them, and perhaps alert us to other links that you have found.

It would be surprising if we all agreed about everything we talk about here, but I'm sure we can agree to disagree with civility and understanding. Also, we don't have to do everything in 1, 2, 3 order. Just because I may start out talking about EMRs does not mean we cannot also talk about another health aspect at the same time. By the same token, we might now touch on every topic up there. That's okay too. Let's have a go and see what happens.

Though controversial, because of privacy issues, one of the topics that I hope would become commonplace is the use of Electronic Medical Records. That subject came up when I was with my two younger daughters last fall and I said, "Well, if I'm in an accident driving home, I'd be happy if my medical records were all in one place, available eletronically." And they, both working in the public health area, said, "Oh mom, it's so much more than that." And one of them went on to explain how a doctor could query records to indicate which patients had certain lab results above a certain level. And so forth.

I had a physical the other day, and the doc could find when I had my last bone density, but she had to plow through a pile of stuff. And I thought, wouldn't it be great if all my docs -- the skin doc, the heart guy, the joint man, all had the same info, organized to be readliy retrievable.

No doubt there are pitfalls. What do you think?

How about on a chip, implanted on a tooth, like has been described in science fiction. My cat has a chip implanted for identification. Why not humans too?

I think it would be a welcome and wonderful idea if human beings were all honest and morale...but that's not a fact. Look what happened to the internet, for example.

I'm being very quiet and listening to all you folks.

Robby

PEDLN: We have an HMO (Kaiser Permanente) here in California that is keeping all the records on the computer. For example, any doctor can call up hospital records for one of her/his patients and see just what was done then. Mostly I think it is helpful. A specialist can check and see if/when particular lab tests were done and request them if they are not current enough. It does save on some duplication. It also allows the HMO to get bigger and bigger and bigger until it begins to feel like a health factory.

No chips on/in my body !! A bad idea !

I'm glad my primary doctor knows how to type ! I remember one day I had an appointment a number of years ago and he had a new computer setup in the examining room. He sat there while we talked and he entered some info into the computer. He was able to see what tests were due, like blood work etc. After the exam he entered the numbers and results in. We then discussed which prescriptions I needed new slips for refills (or any new prescription he ordered for me) he hit "print" and everything was at the printer in his office for me to mail to the pharmacy (I mainly use mail-order service.) The computer is certainly more efficient than the old way and it's there for him right away. As you know the old way was writing out reports and then waiting maybe two or three weeks for someone to type it up or transcribe what the doctor may have dictated. I used to transcribe medical reports and I can tell you it was often impossible to read the doctor's handwriting. Knowing the patient history, medical material and the routine I was usually able to determine what he wrote. Today is so much better and more accurate.

One of the main gripes by nurses in my local hospital is the unreadable writing of the doctors. My writing is fairly decent and they are pleased when they receive orders written by me.

Robby

What's the ideal way to communicate with your doctor, especially between visits? About a year ago, "doctors using e-mail" articles said that 25% of them had e-mail, but I doubt they were all USING it to answer patients' questions. Example, I asked the PA (Patient Assistant) at one docs office if she uses e-mail. She said she did, and gave me her e-mail address. A few weeks later I sent her 2 questions and never received a reply.

Has anyone been lucky enough to find a doctor's office that will respond to e-mail questions?

Hello everyone, and welcome. It's great to see so many of your here, getting right into the discussion. I've been travelling this week and am finally alighting in one spot until I head home tomorrow.

Isak, the chip idea sounds interesting, but if your cat wanders far from home, is there anything on her that lets people know she has a chip ID? Perhaps the day will come when some form of chips are installed in everyone, but right now, would the medical people know to look for one. At least with a med alert bracelet, it's out in the open and can be seen.

Robby, do you use any form of EMRs in your practice?

Sometime ago I asked my dematologist what he thought of them and his first remark was that they would be good for prescriptions. It certainly would cut down on errors, especially if all the prescriptions ended up formatted the same way.

President Bush is in favor of EMRs and I believe he's given a year by when they should be in place. Do you think it will happen?

Marjorie, Kaiser's set up seems to be very impressive. I wish all my doctors were linked together, but I can understand Annie's concern about the possible abuses with the information available.

Pedln:-I am a clinical psychologist and do not prescribe. However, I do hold a Diplomate in Psychopharmacology and am a member of the local hospital's Dept of Medicine. I consult and give the physicians my recommendations. Our local hospital does use EMR (electronic medical records) which is owned by the hospital and it is very efficient. This is different from Bush's desire for EHR (electronic health records) and is broader allowing the patient's private medical records to go to others outside the hospital.
Regarding emails -- I keep my email address very private and do not give it to any of my patients. If they have questions, they can ask them during our regular sessions. If their request is urgent, I will get back to them or they can call 911.
If I answered emails from all my patients, I would be inundated.

Robby

I've been a medical transcriptionist for over 30 years and still transcribe occasionally when others are on vacation. In all those years I've formed some opinions about the medical profession, to be sure.

Here are some thoughts on subjects posted previously:

Electronic Medical Records -- beneficial or not? - I think there are pros and cons to this and all sorts of glitches. First of all, the electronic medical record has so far not eliminated the written record, because computers often go down, and a hard copy of at least current records has to be available in that event. Also, if EMR is instituted, there MUST be safeguards to privacy, especially to something as sensitive as a medical record. Insurance companies can get access to all of it now anyhow, and with a written record a patient has to sign a signed release form before anything is released to anyone else, even another doctor (at least in my state), which is sort of a privacy safeguard. I would only be comfortable with this on a national scale if there were secure safeguards in place. Until then I prefer to carry my medical record with me myself for any emergency. No chip implant for me----ever!!!

Drop-in retail clinics -- Have you seen one, in Walmart or Walgreens? -- I think these are fine as long as the people there know enough to refer a patient to an M.D. when it's necessary. For most routine care such as colds or flu or Pap smears, they are quite adequate. A drop-in clinic saved my husband's life by having the common sense to recognize they could not handle the problem and sending him via an ambulance to a local emergency room.

The high cost of staying alive -- is the high price worth it for a few months? -- Personally I think all people ought to make their wishes known in writing, signed and notarized, or have proper Power of Attorney for Health Care (requirements vary from state to state), as to what treatment they would want or not want. In the case where the wishes are unknown, I opt for life, no matter how expensive it is if the person is below a certain age. And I guess that age would be subjective and a matter of opinion.

Disaster preparedness / Anti-terrorism -- Who makes the decisions and does location matter? -- My opinion is that local disasters ought to primarily be handled by local authorities, and national disasters by the feds. War and terrorism and communicable diseases would fall into the national category, in my opinion. Flooding and earthquakes, storms and such would fall into the local category. If local authorities cannot handle it, only then should the feds step in, and only at the request of local authorities. All hospitals have a TRIAGE system by which disaster patients are numbered in order to be helped, in order to best allocate medical resources and manpower.

Rationing and the fight for limited resources -- how does one decide? by age? condition? -- Mainly by the wishes of the patient and his/her family. I cannot visualize any other system that would not have a huge tendency towards abuse. One can already see that with the HMOs which often refuse treatment and override the medical knowledge of a doctor. All too often the treatment is refused by clerical staff who have no clue about medicine. I have talked to clerks in HMOs who didn't even know what diabetes was, let alone whether or not a surgery is necessary; yet they can decline treatment. Of course, it can be appealed, but I don't think a doctor should have to go through a lengthy appeals process before he can prescribe treatment he deems necessary, especially when the treatment is fairly urgent. I also have a friend who needed a heart transplant, and her HMO doctor had been instructed to keep mum about that option. She would have refused it anyhow, but she should have been given that option in order to make a free choice.

A Medical Conscience -- they won't treat you because . . --- I can't imagine a doctor NOT treating anyone because . . . A doctor is in business to save life, if he possibly can, and he has to at least try. The only time that would not apply is if the patient has made a clear wish not to be treated---again, just my opinion. And many patients do opt for no treatment if the situation looks hopeless or terminal, and request "comfort care only" or "hospice care". However, that is different from euthanasia, where an actual deliberate act is performed to kill someone. I can't imagine a good doctor ever wanting to participate in that. However, if we legalize euthanasia (I hope not), we will have to have specialists in that area because I don't think it's fair to ask a doctor who has promised an oath to save life and went into medicine in order to help, to participate willfully in taking life. At least none of the doctors I have recently worked for would like to participate in active dying, although they are quite willing to give comfort care, including drugs that are available to reduce or eliminate pain. We only need to get the government's drug enforcement agencies off their backs when they do prescribe pain medication for terminal patients, even if those medications are addictive.

. . . . "Public health officials should be given the right as well to make life and death decisions, like who gets treated and who doesn't in the event of an epidemic or some other catastrophe brought on by an act of terrorism." --- Every hospital has a system in place whereby they allocate medical resources according to a TRIAGE system. In the event of an emergency I imagine that it probably applies also to public health officials. I am just a bit skeptical that those decisions would be made only in case of a real emergency instead of being used in non-emergency situations, and would need absolute certainty that there would be no abuse before I agreed with that statement, since public health officials can often be as obtuse and unknowledgeable as HMO clerical staff.

. . . meaning "to sort out". Here is a general look at how it's done. In an emergency situation a black tag is pretty ominous for the patient's outlook---like probably NIL. When tags are not available the patients are numbered on the forehead with a visible marker, at least according to the in-service classes I have attending in the hospitals I have worked for.

________________

Disaster medical triage is a dynamic process occurring at several levels in the system to rapidly identify patients with critical injuries from the total number of presenting casualties. Traditionally, triage systems have attempted to sort victims into categories to determine treatment and transport priorities. Triage in a disaster is neither perfect nor democratic. It lacks sensitivity and specificity; however, triage improves outcome. Avoiding deaths in all categories requires knowledge of the resources of the local EMS system. Simple triage and rapid treatment categorizes victims based on their ability to walk, their mental status, and the presence or absence of ventilation or capillary perfusion.

Patients generally are tagged. Tags are color-coded as follows:

Red - Emergent

Yellow - Urgent

Green - Nonurgent

Black - Dead or very severely injured and not expected to survive Patients who are severely injured and not expected to survive are the most difficult to assign because of the obvious ominous implications. Note that patients placed in this category clearly are so severely injured that no degree of medical help relieves them.

I have lived a long and pretty healthy life perhaps because we have been taught about our health by our mother who died at 95 of "old age", for lack of a better word, who often reminded us about healthy food and lifestyle.

A lot of ailments can be prevented and information I have gathered throughout the years (before the internet was available) has helped me many times.

The Canadian health care system may have many faults but it has helped keep Canadians healthier I think.

HAPPY BILL: You asked about email communications with the doctor. The HMO that I mentioned has set up an email system where, if you have seen the doctor within the year, you can send an email. So far the two doctors that I have emailed have responded quickly. Mostly what I am doing in reporting things like blood pressure readings or asking questions about medications. I don't know how many patients are taking advantage of this and can understand ROBBY's concern about the time involved in handling emails from patients. Because trying to leave a message for the doctor at the HMO involves going through a central call center (not the desk in the department), I prefer the email to a phone call. One doctor has requested a phone call and I will honor that request.

My primary physician has asked me not to email him ever, but to call him and ask to speak to him directly. He always has returned my phone call even if at times late at night. When I've had an emergency he has met me at the hospital emergency room. I've been his patient for about 14-yrs.

Happy Bill, interesting question about the doctor and email. I've have never asked or tried it with mine, but once I sent an email to a doctor I didn't know. He was a noted ear specialist in Memphis. I was having serious ear problems at the time and my own ear doctor wanted to try something I thought rather radical. I located the Memphis doctor on the Internet, emailed him about the procedure, and he emailed me back his opinion, in a very short time. I was impressed.

Marjorie, I think you are indeed fortunate to have doctors who are willing to accept email. From things I've heard and read about them, Kaiser appears to be on the cutting edge of many things medical. But I can also understand Robbie's concern and that of EmmaBarb's doctor about being inundated, and prefering phone calls.

Eloise, welcome. I think what you say about the Canadian health system is probably true about those in most developed countries -- they have their faults, but we are better off with them.

Mountain Rose, you've given us a lot to think about there with your comments. Interesting about the labeling methods used in triage.

There are links to several articles up in the heading, which go into more depth on the topics listed. Going back to The high cost of staying alive, the article in question focuses on patients, in many cases, having to decide if the cost of their treatment is worth the time their lives will be extended. Is $16,000 for drugs worth three additional months of life? Whew!! It also explains how insurance companies sometimes calculate the value of treatment -- "One common approach calculates the cost of a treatment for each year of life it saves — with an adjustment for suffering and side effects. Many health economists view $50,000 to $100,000 as a reasonable upper limit." -- One wonders if those figures get indexed.

We're not limited here to the topics above, but I think we are trying to touch on what's changing, what's new in the medical field. What are your thoughts?

In The Story of Civilization we are discussing (excerpt below) the slow enlightenment of the world of medicine around the 14th century. I thought you folks might like to compare medical procedures then with our "modern" methods.

robert b. iadeluca - 03:39am Sep 18, 2006 PT (#699 of 699) Books Discussion Leader

"Poverty always mingles myth with medicine for myth is free and science is dear.

"The basic picture of medieval medicine is the mother with her little store of household remedies -- old women wise in herbs and plasters and magic charms -- herbalists peddling curative plants -- infallible drugs and miraculous pills -- midwives ready to sever new life from old in the ridiculous ignominy of birth -- quacks ready to cure or kill for a pittance -- monks with a heritage of monastic medicine -- nuns quietly comforting the sick with ministration or prayer -- and here and there, for those who could afford them, trained physicians practicing more or less scientific medicine.

"Monstrous drugs and fabulous formulas flourished.

"Just as certain stones held in the hand were by some believed to ward off conception, so even in medical Salerno some women and men ate asses' dung to promote fertility."

How fortunate we are that the medical world is so different nowadays.

Robby

Right, Robby

An interesting bit on the cable news this am -- an organ donor group. Those in the group pledge to donate their organs to others in the group rather than having their organs go through "allocation channels."

Robby... I, too, understand that doctors are busy, but so are their patients. It's next to impossible to speak to some doctors on the phone, receptionists block the calls, etc. And I didn't mean for doctors to personally answer questions via email, but their nurse, PA, NP, or receptionist could possibly answer the questions. In fact, some offices have "phone nurses/advisors" so why not add email as another tool to improve communications and PR (Patient Relations)?

. . . at least the doctors I work with, and the assistants do a lot of the routine care, including fielding phone calls and e-mails. My husband is on Coumadin, and the Coumadin nurse tracks his levels and calls him to adjust medications. They also call him if he missed a lab appointment. It's all very efficient. He sees the cardiologist only when necessary. If the assistant cannot answer a question, only then does he/she give the question to the cardiologist. The assistant even came to check his hospital progress instead of the doctor making daily calls.

That, plus all the help to figure out the hundres of insurance plans and their forms and formularies, makes a practice expensive for a doctor due to personnel costs, but that's why most doctors form groups these days, so they can hire experienced assistants and share the cost of personnel.

As for medieval medicine, I'm not sure we've progressed a whole lot. Doctors can do specific things, like set bones and remove a diseased gallbladder, but when it comes to chronic illness, we are still in the dark ages. There's been some progress, but nowhere near the miraculous impressions most of us have about modern medicine. As for asses' dung, heck we have horse urine in estrogen products, and let's not even talk about the horrid side effects of a lot of chemotherapy which are often worse than the illness itself.

So even though I work in the field, when it comes to chronic illness for me or my family, I tend to do a lot of the research on the internet myself instead of taking a doctor's word for it, even though he/she is the expert and I respect their guidance. Even research I take with a grain of salt because most of it is guesswork and experimental or still being studied.

A good doctor is actually a SUPER DETECTIVE. Most of them go by what is called a SOAP formula. That is: Subjective complaints, plus Objective evidence like lab work and x-rays, etc., to come up with an Assessment and then a Plan. The patient may or may not agree to the plan, and the plan can be changed if it doesn't work.

By the way, did you know that Florence Nightingale was the first person to insist on a written medical record for patients? Even as recently as 40 years ago medical records were hand-written by the doctor. Because of their notoriously poor handwriting, when insurance companies became involved they insisted that all medical records be typewritten, and VOILA, that's how my job came into existence.

But the poor pharmacists are still struggling with doctors' handwriting. So are the poor nurses when they have to decipher the scribblings on a daily medical chart. I just have to struggle with their dictations, which are required for all procedures and hospital admissions, and when they have heavy accents (which in our state includes about 40% of them), it really is a struggle.

Mountain Rose, I did not know that insurance companies insisted on typewritten records. But I sure do believe that doctors were hand-writing the records 40 years ago. I thought some of them still were, although I guess most now use dictation. But why not transcribe them into a computer.

No doubt, someday, when voice recognition software gets better -- A LOT BETTER -- all medical records will be done in that manner.

But EMRs (I'm not sure I understand, Mt. Rose, the difference between them and EhealthRs that Bush advocates) should certainly cut down on health dollars spent -- just from the standpoint of duplication of procedures. How many times have you had doctors order the same lab tests or the same x-rays?

Can you pull up your kids' immunization records? A year ago, at age 39, my youngest decided to go back to grad school. "Mom, the U wants to know if I've been vaccinated against chicken pox, measles, etc. etc." All I could tell her was that she always met the school district requirements. She called and was told they only kept student records so long. The doc was no longer practicing. An EMR would have all that. One friend on mine said they only way she found out if her college age child had had a shot was to go through all the old income tax records and check for deductions.

There is an easier way, and I hope the medical profession will take more advantage of it.

The Sky-high Cost of Staying Alive - that article in the heading above, really hit home for me. This past year I've been witness to a string of catastrophic health problems facing my cousin, age 77. It has really made me think about what choices I would make for myself if I suddenly became terminally ill. Last spring, my cousin suddenly went into heart failure (not a heart attack) and spent about two weeks in the hospital on life support, while they waited for him to get strong enough for a pacemaker and heart pump to be installed. The article above, says that the pump costs $200,000. I don't know if his heart pump was that expensive, but was probably close? After about 6 weeks in the hospital, he finally went home, and then came down with a serious MRSA/staph infection in his blood stream. Back into the hospital again, where he was on IV antibiotics for two more weeks! Just imagine the cost of the multiple hospital stays, not to mention the heart devices. But that wasn't the end of it.

While in the hospital, a doctor noticed a spot on his upper arm that turned out to be malignant melanoma. It was removed and lymph nodes showed that it had likely spread already, but they could not determine if, or where. He was given the options to just wait and see, or to take one of the brand new expensive cancer drugs (mentioned in the article above.)

He opted for the new drug, even though he was told it might NOT work, and if it did, it might only prolong his life for a few months, and the treatment itself would be dangerous and debilitating. (He still has a catheter in his chest from the heart pump.) The cancer drug was given first as infusion, for three weeks, and then as an injection three times a week for the next 11 months. Here's the shocking part: Overall the cancer treatment amounts to about $3,000 a week. When you do the math it adds up to more than $100,000 altogether. Even more shocking - his secondary insurance has agreed to cover it.

The question I ask myself is - if it were me, would I want to have that kind of money spent on me, and go through that harsh chemo treatment, for just a few more months of life? I say NO, but maybe I would change my mind and say YES, if I were actually facing the choice? My husband says if it were him, he would definitely go for the full treatment, and that it would be worth it. Could a few months more of life in your late 70's be that precious to go through so much, and be so costly? I can understand the expensive treatment for the heart, but I am conflicted about the cancer treatment on top of it? Shouldn't heroic treatments like that be reserved for younger patients? How do the rest of you feel about this?

I believe there are a lot of places in the world that still practice 14th century medicine and myths.

This actually happened re: e-mail. One day I had a doctor visit and prior to him seeing me I spoke with a nurse to get a prescription re-issued. She told me she sent my doctor an e-mail. Now the two of their offices were just down the hall say fifty steps away. When I told the doctor to look for the e-mail he was furious. I have a feeling that nurse got fired that day because the next visit I didn't see her. He told me how rediculous that was when they were within a few steps of each other. He really is very caring about his doctor-patient relationship.
Question ? Will all this computer technology eventually do away with real physical contact with the medical profession ? I hope not.
Does a medical student now have to take and pass a typing course in order to get their degree ?
What about doctors not trained in this country.

Aha,, doctors not trained in this country or here as residents in hospitals.. I have a hearing problem and do wear a hearing aid, but I have finally gotten to the point, that I refuse to deal with a doctor or nurse with very little english or a very very heavy accent. If I cannot understand you, I dont want you treating me.. I know this is not fair, but I truly dislike having someone talking away and I dont get one word out of 10. It is my body and I think I deserve someone who has english as a first language or someone who is smart enough to learn english well. My husbands oncologists is south american, but his english is precise and accurate.. So I know it can be done.

EmmaBarb, these are very good questions:

Yes, I think that computer technology might not take away the entire physical medical profession, but it certainly might do away with the lower echelons of the profession and when people have minor ailments, like a bad cold, they would have to go online. Of course that would lead to some bad diagnosis, but if I go by how difficult it is to get an appointment with some GP, it might be the only way to go in the future. There are fewer and fewer doctors practicing here as they move out of the country for a better salary.

Students today learn typing early because 99% of homes have a computer and children even in primary school use it for home work.

We have so many doctors coming from outside this country, it's hard to find one who is, but I must say as Stephanie that they must make themselves very clear, if not, they should not be allowed to practice. We have so many immigrants in the medical profession here. Once I was told that "nobody" living in Montreal was born here. She didn't believe me when I told her I was.

Marilyne, it is shocking to spend so much money on staying alive at an advanced age, but if the medical insurance company agrees to pay for it and the patient wants to go through with it why not? One thing for sure the insurance fees will go up and up.

I don't have additional insurance and treatment for that kind of illness, the doctor decides if a elderly person is going to get it. Personally if I was very ill I prefer not to receive treatment of that nature and leave my money, what's left of it, to my family.

Robby, I laughed at that paragraph in S of C. I have use all kinds of folk remedies for minor ailments all my life because they work better than prescription drugs. After all didn't all drugs originally come from plants? Even my children use my remedies. Mind you they are not meant for very serious conditions. We still need insulin, heart medication. I am grateful for the excellent doctor I have, I didn't choose her, she was assigned to me by the clinic I go to.

Question ? Will all this computer technology eventually do away with real physical contact with the medical profession ? I hope not. -- I think it will for routine care and even preventive care. I think some day we will have computers in our homes that will be able to do blood testing and urinalysis, keep track of blood pressure and pulse rates, check stools for blood, take skin samples and mouth swabs, and even calculate oxygen content. And the computer will give a signal when a condition needs further testing or needs in-person medical attention.

Does a medical student now have to take and pass a typing course in order to get their degree ? What about doctors not trained in this country. --- No, once voice recognition computers are perfected (and they are on the way) typing will become obsolete for the most part. Even now there are template forms in some medical centers where all the doctor has to do is point on a screen in order to fill out a history and physical examination report. It gives him all the various options for an examination, and his index finger does the filling in of the proper form. Of course, as with any sort of form, some symptoms will fall through the cracks---so I'm not sure this will ultimately work very well. But voice recognition systems will take care of that.

In our local hospital we have a dictation system where the doctors have stations all over the hospital into which they dictate, and they can also dictate from home phones or from cell phones into the system. They complained when the system was put in because they really liked their little pocket tape dictation machines which they could tote with them wherever they went. BUT, the tapes would have to be picked up and delivered daily, sometimes tapes got lost or accidentally erased, sometimes a doctor dictated while watching a football game or in his car with windows open and one can't hear what he is saying at all, etc. To eliminate all those problems the medical centers had to tether the docs to a digital in-house system. Nothing gets lost on them and the sound quality is good----unless he's dictating from a lounge where he's also watching a football game (and it happens) or dictating while drivine (that happens too).

But with the digital technology and voice recognition in its early stages, it's just a matter of time before voice recognition is perfected. So far voice rec. systems are still too expensive, but the day will come when they can feed a voice pattern (even an accent) into the system, and the system will type everything out automatically. No typing needed, and no transcriptionist either. There will be perhaps one person near the dictation system that listens when the system gives a signal that a word or phrase is not recognizable.

Anyhow, that's the gist of it from my latest readings. Right now most transcription is actually done overseas in India, Pakistan or the Philippines because of the ease of sending digital information via computer. Of course, the reports that come back from transcriptionists who have English as a second language are often terrible. But hospitals don't care as long as they meet the basic legal requirements. I live in a small town and our hospital has so far not gone that route because the docs know us and they like instant service and correct reports and are horrified by the error-prone reports that a neighboring town's hospital has gotten back.

. . . but I am conflicted about the cancer treatment on top of it? Shouldn't heroic treatments like that be reserved for younger patients? How do the rest of you feel about this?

This is going to be a tough nut to crack, but something has to be done. The big question is: Who decides? The doctor? The patient? The government? The insurance company? I know I wouldn't want anyone but myself to decide about my own body and my health. Either government or insurance companies are much too prone to decide based strictly on the bottom line, or even just because of bureaucracy that messes up.

Personally at my age there are certain treatments I would refuse, not only because of the expense, but also because I feel I've lived a good life and would not want to end it with a dreadful treatment such as chemo unless the odds were definitely in my favor. If a treatment was in my favor 75% or above, I might be prone to accept it. Anything lower than that, no thanks.

Ultimately I can't see any other option but to allow the patient to decide after the odds are presented in a truthful manner. As we saw by Marilyn's example, people do feel differently about this subject, and it gets very emotional.

On the other hand, as a society we might be able to vote on this: Such as, what is BASIC medical care that anyone at any age may receive? And what is HEROIC care that people past a certain age would have to pay for themselves? But the complexity of that boggles my mind.

I do know that there is adequate pain medication available to manage almost all pain and that there is no good reason for people to end their days in pain, except that Uncle Sam doesn't allow a lot of those medications and doctors can be prosecuted by the DEA for what they call over-prescribing. So our docs tend to VERY careful with any sort of pain medication, sometimes to the detriment of a patient who is terminal anyway. Who cares if a medication is addictive if the patient is terminal? THE DEA DOES!!!

In England (under socialized medicine) they have done experiments with using heroin as pain-relieving medication. The studies have shown a high rate of success. I think one of the concoctions is called a Brompton's cocktail, which is a mixture of heroin and other things. People who were terminal and totally incapacitated by pain were helped by it to the point where they could function again, according to the studies. In the U.S.A. the DEA has allowed very few hospitals to use this concoction, and then only under VERY strict supervision. Sometimes I think we have a sort of unreasonable paranoia about drug use in this country, especially for those people who are terminal. And people might not be to quick to opt for euthanasia if they did not have to suffer so much pain and depression as a result of the pain, and instead live out their days until a natural ending occurs. Pain is very scary, and no one I know wants to suffer it----but we don't really have to except for some of our stupid laws.

Marilyne: You pose a tough but interesting question. I read that Melanoma patients with advanced disease and secondary lesions often have a predicted maximum life-span of 12 months. However, chemo treatment can extend that by another 9- 12 months. There are many types of treatments available at comprehensive cancer centers, some more toxic than others. I would request the type that would not be as toxic but give me several more months of quality life. Some of the newest treatments are only available at the medical centers designated as "comprehensive cancer centers". See http://flingk.com/4o087f9

That's assuming they have found melanoma cells outside the original site. If they have not found any definite cancer cells in lymph nodes or other organs, I would opt to not have any treatment.

Pace maker and the computer -- one of my friends has a pace maker and every so often he hooks himself up to a gadget connected to the computer and the information is sent to his doctor's computer for analysis .

Personally I think it would be sad if typing becomes obsolete for the most part.
As for voice recognition -- I have a throat condition and using my voice too much often causes me to nearly loose my voice. I've even programmed my cell phone to call my son by saying his name and a programmed voice tells me it does not recognize the command.

As to any sort of form as templates -- when will they do these templates for the patient ? I just hate having to fill out those lengthy medical info forms everytime I go to a new doctor or at the beginning of every year. I've often asked the people at my doctor's office when given those forms every year "don't you save those I've filled out the last ten years since I've been coming here" ?

My primary physician has a lot of Hispanic patients and he does speak English and Spanish perfectly. I do have a problem sometimes with some of the Spanish speaking employees behind the desk and the telephone though. He also has another participating doctor in his practice who is Asian but speaks perfect English.
I had emergency surgery one time and didn't know he was from India 'til the next day. He was however someone I would recommend and also spoke very good English.

We have a Board of Medical Quality Assurance where you can contact them to see if any of the doctors you go to or plan to go to have any malpractice against them or if they have had their license suspended. I have known of some doctors who have continued to practice medicine on a suspended license...mainly because (I'm told) that their patients didn't care.

Registered Nurses who have worked 20 odd years seem to me to be quite competent in the treatment of minor health problems in a walk-in clinic and they can refer the more serious cases to a physician.

Why is it so hard for the medical profession to recognize the skills of RNs and give them more responsibilities, it would relieve the physician's load, but nurses don't dare diagnose and treat a simple case of boils, they have to refer the patient to a physician. That is why Emergency Rooms are always full and the waiting time is horrendous. Governments have their hands tied by the Medical Profession.

It is one of the reasons I always do a lot of research for any test or treatment my doctor prescribes me and she knows I do this. What I love about her is she doesn't feel threatened by that at all, she goes along with it and takes the time to explain it in depth. I have never seen her use a computer.

It's hard to find a R.N. around this area who has worked 20 years...most are so young and they have that (?) rotating nurses group ? I have a neighbor who's a nurse and she travels around the country spending a year or so at a hospital and stay home awhile then moves on to another and she loves it.

Florida has a nurse practitioner program. Nurses (RN) go back to school and get more medical information. They are especially used by OB and GYN's.. For routine problems, since I have high BP, a nurse works well. If the pressure starts doing its up up up routine. The doctor can be scheduled to look at my meds and change things about. Most nurses with experience can handle routine medical cares. Now to find doctors who believe this.

Marilyne, you, and the article, raise questions that are difficult to think about. When should we have to think about the cost of medicine -- isn't any cost acceptable if a life will be saved? Does it make a difference if a procedure or treatment 'might not' produce a cure?

Oh boy, the accents. And then there are people like me who say, "she's so soft-spoken" or "he speaks so fast" -- in English, no less. I think every patient deserves and/or should demand to understand what the doctor or nurse is trying to tell him. Sometimes that means a third-party has to translate. One of my daughters volunteers at a regional health clinic to translate for Hispanic patients who don't understand English. If you don't understand the doc, tell him. Maybe reverse translation is needed.

Mountain Rose -- your quote is downright scary "On the other hand, as a society we might be able to vote on this: Such as, what is BASIC medical care that anyone at any age may receive? And what is HEROIC care that people past a certain age would have to pay for themselves? But the complexity of that boggles my mind." That would be when you really hope you have an educated electorate. One advantage for seniors there is that more voters of an advanced age tend to vote more than younger voters.

Bill, I used a pacemaker for about 9 years. The cardiology office used to test it bi-monthly and then monthly over the telephone -- two minutes and $103, for which Medicare allowed $30 some. Now they say their testing equipment is more advanced, so now I go in only twice a year and they hang some stuff over my shoulders, the tech watches a computer, and we chit-chat about books.

Stephanie, one of my distant cousins is married to a doctor. They settled in rural Wisconsin several years ago and she said one of the reasons they chose the area was because there were nurse practitioners there.

Pedlin, I have two friends who are nurse practioners and my nephews live in friend is a nurse training to be a nurse anesthesist.. He is a doctor and they are planning on making quite a team. I go to a doctor who uses a nurse practioner.. She has all the time in the world to talk to you and wants to hear about the whole you.. vitamins.. life styles, etc. I like her very much.

for the routine stuff because rural clinics have a hard time finding enough doctors; yet the people need medical care. Rural clinics and rural hospitals also have many patients who have no insurance, no secondary insurance to Medicare, and many are on state aid. That means the hospitals and the doctors have to accept whatever payments they get, which means many of them are going broke. Of the five rural hospitals in our county, only one of them is in the black, two are constantly struggling to stay alive, and two have closed their doors and turned the facility into nursing homes. That means a looooooong drive for some people with medical emergencies.

Doctors who come to a rural clinic don't make as much money, and since their wives usually also have careers, that means they stay in the city where the money is better and where the wife can pursue her profession or go shopping. We've lost one radiologist after another here because the wives don't like living in the country, and right now all radiology is done by teleradiology----that is, sent over the computer to a radiology clinic in the city where the film gets read and reports are sent back here.

One doctor's wife was a marine biologist. Of course she had no outlet for her skills in this small in-land place. So they agreed that he would spend five years here, and then they would move on to where she could once again practice her profession---so we lost another good doctor.

We are also connected to a local university hospital system via computer so that consultations can be held with the specialists that are not available here in the county, without the patient having to drive over the Sierra Nevadas, especially in the winter.

Have read all the posts and found them very informative. Many good ideas etc One thing I have found this past year when I had to go to ER at a local hospital My primary physician does not come to see you and sometimes doesnt even know you are in the hospital until you tell him..It seems all the hospitals here now have their own doctors who treat you> Their entire practice consists of patients who are admitted from the ER ...now sometimes if the problem does not require hospitalization you are then referred to your primary doctor for a follow up. A friend of mine who has been cared for by a group of internists recieved a notice they will no longer visit in the hospital as the hospital doctors will take over the care until the patient is relased back to their regular doctor.

Since I have become hard of hearing I have found some doctors absolutely rude because they have to write out the questions they are asking me , same with some receptionists. I can be and am rather nasty in my comments when I run into this...I am grateful for those that cheerfully do this and let them know.

When my husband was diagnosed with advanced melanoma he accepted a very harsh reginmen ..it did prolong long his life by about 18 mos but I have to say it was a rather miserable extension..the last week of his life came when he could no longer do anything and was confined to his bed with a morphine pump. It was a special week where everyone , including my son's employers came to visit He was a very social person and I think the fact all these people came gave him a sense of LIVING..He died in his sleep and I was grateful it was a gentle departure. However when Medicare recieved the bill for the morphine pump $218 it was denied I called about it and this smart mouthed young man tells me they didnt know if it was necessary I wont go into detail about what I told him but the upshot was had I put him in the hospital that week Medicare would have paid thousands for his care instead of the small amount billed. In the end they paid it because I told them if they didnt I was writing to all the newspapers, TV stations, My congressman etc and the Dept of human affairs. Why it was necessary to even have that conversation is beyond me..The doctor prescribed it . was administered by a home nurse etc and was only a week..I am hateful about that but I hope people who make those decisions have it denied to them some day!!!

I research every thing my doctor prescribes for me and often I say I dont want to use a medicine as I can tell the effects are worse than what I have. He allows us to be a partner in my care. I can follow his advice or say no and he accepts my feeling etc. As I told him if I die on your watch just remember NO ONE LIVES FOREVER..He was also my husbands regular doctor and when I saw him before my husband died I mentioned I no longer kept him on the diet for his high cholestrol problem He looked at me with a question in his eye and I SAID he is dying Nothing is going to help and if he wants lemon meringue pie and fried chicken he is going to get it! He is a good doctor and I like him because he discusses what I want as well as what he thinks is best ..And isnt insulted that I wont follow all of his suggestions. Like Eloise I am into the methods my mother used and she lived to be 88 as well as many of her family and my fathers family lived to be almost a 100 and ate whatever they wanted .etc...I may not live as long but one thing I am going to enjoy life as much as possible for as long as I live..so this is a great subject Pedln thanks for thinking of it.. anna

Annafair: Sorry about your husband. How long had the original lesion been removed before it began to metastasize?

I agree about primary physicians and emergency rooms. I forgot to tell the emergency room who my primary doctor was, and he was very upset. So I found another family doctor.

I also had a similar experience with insurance. Instead of having a second bypass after the first one failed two months after surgery, I opted for non-invasive EECP treatments which cured my angina. BC/BS rejected the claims. I wrote a protest letter, stating that I was cured at about 1/3rd the bypass cost, so I saved them many thousands of dollars with the alternative treatment. They payed the bill.

you were denied necessary treatment at the request of a professional who went through medical school, is because insurance companies and government hire clerical help (probably at minimum wage or just above) who are often NOT very bright and have very little to no experience with medical care. It's bureaurocracy at work. And you end up often having to fight to get your bills paid. HMOs are good at the denial game, and so is Medicare.

What was interesting to me was when I had a problem with my HMO denying to pay for a routine annual PAP smear, I had to fight them. In the process I learned that whereas insurance companies in general used to be regulated by the state insurance commission who got on their backs enough to make them jump and pay, HMOs in my state are regulated by the State Department of Corporations, who basically do nothing to help you resolve an issue. So, just like Annafair, after a while of dealing with peons who were of no help and gave me conflicting information as to why my claim was denied, I got mad and demanded to speak to a supervisor. Still, even after promises, no payment was forthcoming, and I ended up having to go through arbitation just to get a PAP smear paid. It turned out that the problem was an incorrect coding problem by the coder in the doctor's office. Same when I broke my wrist which had to be pinned. It took over a year until the doctor and hospital were finally paid because the coding was lousy.

Now I'm on Medicare with a secondary insurance, and so far so good. One also has to understand that payment and whether or not the insurance company feels a treatment is necessary depends on how a treatment is coded. If your doctor's office has a crack coder, they will pay without question. If they have a coder who doesn't know her business, they will balk. It all depends on the wording because the clerical staff isn't smart enough to figure it out unless specific language according to their manuals is used.

I recently had to have a carotid artery scan. The coder at my doctor's office is SUPER. She looked it up in her manual as to just how they wanted the wording to be with the assigned number for a carotid scan, and payment went without a hitch. So it isn't always the fault of the insurance company. It could be the way the treatment was coded. In fact, I've been given to understand that a good medical coder is worth her weight in gold, because she is the one who gets the bills paid without endless hassles.

I do understand that this coding is critical. I have not had a problem, but my husband has had several small glitches.. Mostly last year, he was treated for Squamus Cell that had migrated and formed a tumor on his parotid gland. During and before the surgery and then the radiation, the doctors insisted that he have quite a few repeat blood tests and other tests. We kept getting rejections from Medicare and the backup, that he had just had the tests. We would notify our doctors and they agreed to fight for this, so it was settled through the doctors but someone was obviously not paying attention to the diagnosis.. He is now back in radiation for basal that has become aggressive and invasive on his ear and they hope to save the ear, but who knows. I dread seeing the bill copies come in since there always seems to be something they want to fight.

. . . system (diagnostic related groups) they demanded specific wording before they will make payment, and they have a set amount they pay no matter what it actually costs. Some of the wording makes little sense. I coded for a little while and got angry at how they demanded that things be grouped, such as hypertension with heart disease, whether or not you have heart disease. When I questioned it because this particular patient DID NOT HAVE heart disease, I was told to give them what they want because otherwise payment will be held up and will ultimately be a fight. They will use any excuse to deny payment, even though ultimately it costs them more (I would think) to fight a legitimate treatment payment. But if the coders don't use the right wording, the sort of low-brow clerical help the government hires just can't determine a legitimate treatment from an illegitimate treatment. ERGO, lots of problems.

The same goes for insurance companies who tend to follow in the footsteps of the rules the government sets.

. . . chemo, it is absolutely mandatory to have regular blood testing because both treatments can affect the blood cell count, especially the white cells which fight infection. When a legitimate treatment like this is denied, a doctor has to write letters to justify it, and sometimes it can take several letters on his part to get payment. Can you imagine the cost of having to fight for payment of legitimate treatment because some small-time clerk has denied payment? I know, I've typed hundreds of those letters over the years.

What I think happened is that the government put in the DRG system in order to keep medical costs down. But it actually did not keep costs down at all and may even have raised them. It merely transferred some of the costs to different pockets, such as to the pockets of the doctors and his staff, and if a claim is ultimately denied, to the patients.

It's the same with HMOs. I don't believe HMOs have kept the costs down, and as long as people demand the most sophisticated and advanced treatments, with the best equipment, the costs will continue to go up.

In some states insurance company rates are higher than in others also because the states have mandated certain treatments, such as plastic surgery, or treatments which are not medically necessary to survive but that a legislature simply considered "acceptable". In the City of San Francisco even sex-change operations MUST BE COVERED for all city employees, no matter how many times it's done. It's gotten to be kind of crazy with each state making its own rules and then each city wanting to get into the act also.

And insurance companies can abandon an area of the country in which they don't make enough money. My county is such a one since the whole county only has about 36,000 people in it and only has small local hospitals, with lengthy travel required on the part of patients for any specialized treatment. There are no HMOs here, and the one that used to be here abandoned us years ago. I'm wondering how many insurance companies will ultimately abandon doing business in San Francisco because of the nutty rules the city made. Can't say that I blame them though.

As you said Stephanie, nowadays, doctors have to "go to bat" for their patients, and fight with the insurance companies for certain procedures. None of those expensive procedures that my cousin received were automatically covered by either Medicare or his secondary. He was told that his doctors had to step in and fight for the latest treatment, or he would be denied. His doctor did call and write letters, which is why is is getting everything paid for. But what if the doctor had refused?

What I'm wondering is, will our doctors get tired of "fighting" for every little thing and start saying no? Actually they shouldn't have to step in at all. The insurance company knows that the teatment has been recommended, so it ought to be across the board if the patient wants it - or if it's monumentally expensive, then certain restriction could be placed on age, overall prognosis, etc. The doctors job is to take care of the needs of the patient, not to argue with or coerce an insurance company.

I know that lots of older doctors have retired earlier than they had planned to, because they despised the way that medicine is being run today. They just simply did not want to deal with all the bureaucracy, problems, etc. My husband and I lost three of our "old timer" docs over the past couple of years. I really miss them, because they seemed to actually care about us personally. In all three cases, the doctors who acquired their practises, are foreign born, and so very businesslike and cool. I especially have the feeling that they don't want to deal with women at all, but maybe I'm just imagining it?

Stephanie - I hope your husband does well on his follow up surgery, and that he won't have to have the more serious procedure in the future.

Your posts have been very enlightening and I'm learning a lot from them. I did not understand about coding, DRG -- diagnostic related group -- and you have explained it well, MRose. So far, knock on wood, I have not had payment problems, although sometimes it has taken a long time due to "coding problems". My secondary ins. had to keep sending them back to the provider for correct coding.

It seems as we make great strides in treatments, we do the reverse when it comes to the non-medical aspects of medicine -- if that makes sense. There may be miraculous cures but we have to fight for our insurance to pay for them.

And speaking of payments, I have asked several friends, but none of them can claim the ability to read a provider's bill. Why is it so difficult?

Two years ago we were faced with a shortage of flu vaccine. What puzzled me as supplies began to trickle in, was the statement that they were only for those who desperately needed the shot. And how was that to be determined. In my particular medical group there was no vaccine at all, so even a doctor pinpointing his neediest patients would not do any good.

Several months ago, included in the monthly water bill (that appears to be the universal informant for my community) was a form that one could voluntarily fill out if one considered him/herself to have special health needs for responders to know about in case of a disaster. That seems to me to be a good start. I filled it out. I also volunteered to help with data entry if such help was needed. I have no idea if any information has been compiled but it seems it would be smart to know within a community, a neighborhood, a region, whatever -- who is wheelchair bound, who is visually handicapped, who is dependend upon oxygen, etc. in the event of adverse circumstances. What are your thoughts here? Is anything being done in your area?

There is a WHO conference in our country at the moment and the hot topic is bird flu. They say we have a pandemic every thirty nine years and next year is the thirty nineth year since the last one which was in 1968. That was the Hong Kong flu from memory. There is much discussion about preparedness. We should all get our tamiflu this year. It lasts for many years apparently so it won't be out of date. Tamiflu is better than nothing!

Carolyn

Pedlin, what a good idea in your community. In hurricane prone Florida, as far as I know there is nothing to indicate who or where anyone with special problems are. We have shelters, but truthfully I have never seen a complete list of shelters for our county. Including for us the information about which ones allow pets. With two children living in the state, we all three have always depended on one another.. The reasoning being the hurricane is not going to hit all three of us at once.. But it would make sense as we grow older to know where shelters are and which one would allow us our dogs ( if they dont do, neither do I)

As I said PEdln this is really a current and continous problem and I think it helps to keep current

Bill my husbands original melanoma was in his eye he was a pilot and flew at altitude so was exposed to the sun there The retinologist felt it was most likely due to his job. He did put a claim in for compensation due the hazards of flying at altitude ( he was USAF pilot and a jet pilot for some years and flew 1000's of hours in his career,) That claim was denied I suspect because the VA didnt want to open the door for others to make a similar claim. The cancer in his eye was the only cancer in the beginning and he was treated with proton beam therapy at MASS eye and it delayed any progression for ten years but when it returned it was wide spread and knowing what I know now I would have hoped he would have given thought to not taking the chemo...It was devastating to his whole system ...and I have always told people I lost him by bits and pieces since the chemo changed his personality, caused him to lose memory and just added to his pain...

Locally there was a memo in one of our local bills ( water I think) a number of years ago asking anyone who had small children or someone disabled to let them know and a special sticker would be given to post on a windwow to let police and fireman know there was someone in the house who needed help. If it could be placed on the window of the person that was best.

When I see the enormous bills for even simple health concerns I recall when I had an emergencey appendectomy at 16 I was in a private room for 11 days The hospital asked my father if he wanted me placed in a ward ...and he said no she likes it here .. But I can tell you what the whole thing cost, My parents never paid by check but with cash and by the time I was 12 my mother gave me the bills and the cash and I made the round of all the offices where money was due and paid them The hospital bill was 110 dollars ,.10 dollars for each day and that included the use of the operating room , a nurse anethesist , everything including my delicious meals prepared by the Nuns and it was wartime and even my doctor coveted my eggs and bacon for breakfast. the surgeons bill was 75 dollars...When I think of the bills now I am flabbergasted..Most doctors ( including my dog's vet ) no longer mail out bills ..the bill goes to the insurance company or you pay at the time of treatment.

While I think there will continue to be improvement in medicine I do wonder how many will be able to afford treatment..anna

those who need it the most get it first, and that is determined by their condition. With a flu vaccine, those people with chronic respiratory problems and those over a certain age get the vaccine first. Health care workers also get it because they are constantly exposed. The rest get the vaccine if any is left over or as it is manufactured and comes on the marker.

Carolyn's idea of having Tamiflu around is a good one. It is better than nothing, and our doctors have recommended that people have a supply of it on hand just in case.

I think it's always a good idea for a family to have planned several meeting places where everyone can find each other again during or after an emergeny.

Personally, I don't expect anyone to come and rescue me, and I guess that sort of attitude is bred into a person when they live out in the country. I prepare as much as I can on my own, have enough fresh water and other supplies on hand to be able to manage for at least a month, and will fend for myself. Of course, I live out in the sticks and have to do that anyhow every winter when I've been snowed in for three weeks at a time with no electricity. One winter I even melted snow for water, since I have a pump that runs on electricity and it was out. One of these days I will get a generator for just such emergencies. In the meantime I got survival info from the internet, such as how to purify water and I also have a wood stove for heat if the furnace should die, with plenty of wood on hand. I also live sourrounded by national forest, which means during fire season anything can happen---and I'm always ready, knowing exactly what I will take and what can be left behind----and frankly, most things can be left behind when it is a matter of life or death.

In the meantime I think we should all be prepared with enough supplies for at least a week and not depend on anyone else, least of all any sort of government agency. They are notoriously inefficient and all sorts of SNAFUs can happen. Eventually they get around to helping, but in the meantime we need to take care of ourselves the best we can and take responsibility for ourselves. I would think that would include taking responsibillity for neighbors who we know are incapacitated.

MountainRose and Anna...

At last, a forum where people with the "government must take care of us" attitude, haven't yet infiltrated. WE ARE ON OUR OWN...WE MUST TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES!" Nobody cares about us but US!! Once you realize this, you can quit expecting much from others...

You've got that right, brun hilda. My grandmother, a survivor of the first degree, said "Look out for yourself, no one else can do as good a job."

Good primary Drs are rare, I think. But I have one that is tops. Feeling a bit "patchy", I dropped by his office today on my way home from groceries, and he took a bit of time to listen to me, and suggested I drop one of my painkillers and try a different one. Then he told me to call Monday and report to his nurse how I was feeling.

I think we grew up in a time when people looked out for themselves and also for neighbors...I know when I was growing up and there was death or an illness in the neighborhood everyone dropped by with food and offers of help Now people who live next door to each other dont know when a neighbor is ill or needs help. When I moved here 35 years ago the neighbors were still like that ,. but as the seniors moved out and younger families moved in you never know what problems they may be facing or what needs they may have,

Even though I live in a city and lived in one as a child my parents always stocked up on food ( canned for winter) whole cases of food would be delivered by the first week in September ..staple supplies like canned tomatoes, evaporated milk, beans, all the canned vegetables and fruit. The only thing my mother would buy for winter was fresh meats and things that needed only a wooden box in the winter to keep cool. Bread was home made, as well as any cake or pies and popcorn was our winter snack food or sometimes home made fudge ..that was chilled on the back porch until it was firm enough to eat..

I have always kept bottled water ( gallons when my children were young) and canned meats ( tuna, salmon, shrimp . and then spam ( who knew it was bad for you? ) as well as vegetables etc so when bad weather hits I am ready .. My one daughter in law does the same but the others I worry about when I am in their homes and check the cupboards for something to eat ( while I am usually baby sitting) or something to make for the family dinner..There really isnt much there..My mother also kept things like alcohol ,Hydrogen peroxide, band aids ,,mercurechrome ( is that spelled right?) all sorts of things that might be needed just in case ...my parents didnt have a car but I try never to let the tank go below 1/2 in case I have to evacuate because of a hurricane etc. Here in lower Southeast VA we dont get snow too often but I can say the state and local government are ready with sand and salt trucks when it comes ...I have a small wood stove and wood each year since we do lose electicity once in awhile and have had to warm and cook on it when the unexpected blizzard arrives. I think senior people are just doing what their parents did .. taking care of themselves ...I hope some of our young people are paying attention ! anna

I'm young, Anna, and I'm paying attention!!

Robby

living in the country, but also because I do a lot of back woods driving on roads that no one traverses for weeks at a time (in the Sierra Nevadas of No. CA), and I've learned to load up my car with all the necessities of living just in case I get stranded (and I have). That includes a good first aid kit, waterproof fire starting kit, an axe, a saw, a good knife and some razor blades, an air pump and patch kit for flat tires, a battery charger, spare oil and coolant, food and water and water treatment pills, and even a portable kit to purify my own water, soap, blankets and changes of clothing and raingear, flashlight and a small tool kit, tow rope, etc., etc. I read somewhere that parachute line was a minor miracle, every bit as good as a tow rope and lighter. So I guess I shall have to get some. I also carry a pepper spray for dangerous critters, either the two-legged or four-legged kind. I don't believe in being a victim if I can help it. None of it takes up a lot of room if you buy compact items and stow them properly. In a really bad emergency I even know how to collect water from dew or night air and I have educated myself about edible plants in the areas I travel.

I make a list every year before spring and load up the van with all I might need, and then when I'm in the middle of nowhere I don't worry. When the car has given me trouble (once) I just took a nap and after being refreshed, I figured out what to do.

I agree that first and foremost we are responsible for ourselves and cannot expect the government to come charging in like a knight on a white horse because we planned poorly. There is enough information about emergency preparedness in the library and on the internet, and even in our local phone book. Personally I don't even understand people who take no responsibility for themselves and just expect the government to do it all. Katrina was a perfect example of how inefficient the government, both local and national, actually is and how slowly they move.

in an emergency situation it will provide you with enough protein to stay alive. So I keep it on hand, both in the house and in the car. With all the canned and dehydrated foods available these days there simply is no excuse not to be prepared.

During WWII my mother always had powdered milk and powdered eggs on hand also (when she could get them), and I've done the same. It's amazing what one can do with both of those ingredients.

How about Wal-Mart testing $4 a month for generic meds and now some other rival stores are doing it too. Where is this going ?

EmmaBarb I read about thatin our newspaper today ...They did say that some of the more popular and needed drugs were not on the list..there was no list posted so I dont know. I only take 1/2 of a tablet of one kind of medicine so I am not truly concerned ( of course I may be in the future)

MountainRose I am proud to know you even if it is only through this medium...My children grew up on powdered milk..and I keep it in the house..and use it several ways. While I was never in the Girl Scouts as a child I was a leader for years and one thing I emphasied was learning how to do without..and to make do..some of the mothers thought I was sort of a nut ...but we camped in a rather primitive area about 50 miles from any civilzed place and I used every thing I could to show them how to survive..

My husband was a pilot in the USAF and we lived in Europe for 4 years .53=57.the war was over but there was still a lot of devastation and short supplies, We had to soak any fresh vegetables in a clorox solution since human waste was used as fertilizer. Our husbands were away most of the time and it was necessary to know what to do ..In France we lived in trailers that we so cold come winter my 4 year old slept in a snowsuit and I in wool slacks and an old mouton fur coat. No phones, and the water line was laid on top of the ground and when it froze we had no water ,,once for two weeks..On Okinawa we had to be prepared for typhoons and again our husbands left as the planes had to be evacuated..It is sort of scary to be living on the top of a mountain in the Pacific and have a typoon dump so much water it was flowing outside your house 18 inches deep . As soon as the wind reached 75 miiles an hour the electricity was cut off...a portable radio kept us in touch with a battery operated station, We survived the 4th worse typhoon to hit the island so I certainly am glad I knew the need to be prepared.

It amazes me that people will run to the stores when we have hurricane alerts to buy things that they should have had all along.,

When I was little we had an inland flood in the town where we lived when we had 8 inches of rain in a short period of time .. when night came my mother took strips of fabric ( she made my clothes) and twisted them tightly ., placed them on a pie pan and poured bacon fat over them and when they were saturated lit a piece that she twisted for a wick..We seldom saw a doctor my mother always used old fashioned ways to take care of us. Cool clothes ( cool water we had no refrigerator until I was in my teens,.) for fever, aspirin, Vicks for chest rubs .and vinegar which mother heated and applied to sprains etc..Alcohol rubs for aches and pains as well as to cool a fever No vitamins since we ate a variety of food No potato chips or snack foods ..no soft drinks.. hot cocoa made with evaporated milk. Like Robby I am YOUNG although he is younger than I am ..

For years we went camping and I still have some of the things we always took with us.....propane lanterns,. small propane stoves although you can make a stove out of a large can with holes in the top and a small opening in the bottom and use charcoal or wood as heat Have boiled water , made coffee and heated soup on one of those things..Ah well life is different . cant say it is always better but certainly different.. sometimes I think the more we try to make the world better we just make it worse ..MtnRose I think I will move near you .. anna

MntnRose - I think I was probably somewhere in your vicinity last week, when I drove over the Carson Pass on my way to Eastern Nevada. Came back through Tahoe, which is my favorite place in the world. You are VERY savvy when it comes to survival, but I can see where you have to be always on the alert, living in the High Sierras. Depending on where a person lives there, it is possible to get snowed in for long periods of time - even in this modern day and age. We learned our lesson here in '89, when that earthquake hit very close to home. Being without electricity and water for just one week, was a "wake up call", and we have been prepared ever since. (though never enough.)

Annafair - what an exciting life you have led! I read with interest about your years in post-war Europe, and then in Okinawa. My father was stationed for awhile on Okinawa right after it was occupied. Although he never talked much about it when he came home, or in years to follow, I have since read much about what it was like there after the battle.

. . . some time. I do like to have practical unflinching people around me who don't panic easily. Life is hard. It always has been. We just have a veneer of safety that's an illusion, and to accept that fact is to be able to really live, and to live without fear, I think.

By the way, I had a bone scan recently, and with the powdered mild (calcium-rich) and a calcium tablet a day, my bones were super with no osteoporosis. I use powdered milk in any baking, for puddings and all sorts of things that require milk as an ingredient. It's low in calories and rich in calcium, and stays fresh indefinitely.

Marilyne, yes, you were near me, south of me actually. I live about an hour north of Tahoe in some of the most gorgeous country on earth. All the difficulties are worth it to me, and for a former city girl, born and raised, I have adapted very well.

I must admit, as a city person I was also quite out of touch with being prepared, because it becomes a habit to just count on the utilities and grocery stores always being there with whatever is needed. These days I know better.

$4 for generics, I hadn't heard about that, but I think it will force the price of generics down if it works. One of the reasons drug companies can charge as much as they do for their drugs is that they put the research into it and then have the patent on it for as long as the patent is good. After the patent expires anyone else can manufacture the drug under their own names, and then the price usually comes down. So as competition becomes more fierce with generics the price may come down to more reasonable levels, especially if a large store like Wal-Mart forces the issue.

What do some of you think about being able to get prescriptions filled by a foreign country? I am personally not in favor of it because the laws in other countries are not the same as to purity of a drug, and I do prefer to know what the ingredients are with what I put into my body. While drugs from Canada are probably safe, I'm not sure about drugs from any other country and would never take them myself. AARP is in favor of allowing us to buy drugs from other countries, and I'm afraid I totally disagree with them on that. I would rather pay a bit more and know it is reasonably safe and has been properly tested by the Food and Drug Administration.

Carolyn, welcome, and thanks for your input about the WHO conference. Is WHO advocating that everyone in your country have tamiflu in their homes? It is available only by prescription, is it not? As you say, it is better than nothing, and will have to do until a vaccine is available. While on Google I came across this site about pandemics in NZ.

Bird Flu Vaccine - A New Zealand Fact File

I thought this statement from it was certainly prudent -- "Until such time as a Bird Flu Vaccine has been developed and is made commercially available in New Zealand, if a Bird Flu Pandemic does occur the only prudent approach to your own health and well being, and that of your family, is one of isolation, care and prevention"

Anna, when in Okinawa did you fill up the bathtub with water when adverse weather was predicted? We did that a lot in Puerto Rico. Not for drinking, but for any other needs.

Stephanie, good point about having a list of shelters. Now for a question from the uninitiated -- how do you know in advance what buildings are still standing or available for shelter use?

Brun hilda and Pat -- what you say is true -- no one will take better care of us than we ourselves. And I think, I hope, many,not just New Orleans people, have learned from Katrina, that you must plan to take care of yourself before counting on the government and first responders. But, while most of us who participate in this forum, and others, are pretty independent, and know how to work within the system and out of it, there are many who are incapable of that or need assistance. And as Anna has pointed out, not all neighborhoods are what they used to be.

There's more to say, about generics, Walmart, etc., but later.

Well I think it's great if local pharmacies can offer the public generic drugs for $4 a month, particularly those who are uninsured or don't have a prescription drug plan as part of their health insurance.

I don't know about prescriptions filled by a foreign county. Who would set the standards for them and see that they are regulated and by licensed drug manufacturers before being able to enter this country ? Perhaps though the WHO could oversee all of this. There are some drugs being administered in foreign countries that are really something we should consider manufacturing for distribution here.

I had my flu shot last week.

When I lived in the country we lost electricity now and then and I kept bottled water and empty milk jugs for flushing since the well pump operated on electricity. In winter I can remember melting snow a few times to wash up dishes. And we had a nice fireplace when power went out...the boys used to look forward to curling up in front of the fireplace.

"What do some of you think about being able to get prescriptions filled by a foreign country?"

When I investigated the statin/combo drug, Vytorin, I found out that it was manufactured in another country...like Thailand or some such..I was really surprised! And it still costs over $300 for a 60 day supply!

In Florida, our schools have to be constructed to hurricane or wind specifications.. The older ones may not be. Also National Guard armories or reserve shelters.. The radio stations and tv broadcast whole lists of what is open where. They tend to open them at least 24 hours before a hurricane, so if you are in a flood prone area, you should get there early. Florida does a reasonably good job of informing people as to whats happening and where to go. The big problem with wind is that the hurricanes tend to wobble a bit just before they hit land and that makes it iffy as to exactly where to go. I have Osteoporosis and I will say that I did and still do use calcium, powdered milk, etc and have for at least 20 years. I still go Osteo.. and as my female doctor says.. You are small, northern european , very fair and that makes you high risk.. So genetically factors tend to come out in the disease. I lift weights and have done so for 15 years.. That is supposed to help as well. Just the roll of the dice.. My Mother did all of the right things, took good care of herself, got colon cancer and took three very long years to die.. Again the luck of the draw.. I do my very best, but am aware of risks that we cannot control.

I too have osteo Stephanie and have done pretty much what you do, but in researching I have found other elements causes one to be prone to it but it takes a lot of time to sort out different information and our primary care doctors don't have the time or the inclination to go through that process.

I try to prevent health problems without becoming hypochondriac and I very well know that eventually I will lose the battle of aging. Still at 80 I am glad I am on my two feet without arthritis, cancer and high blood pressure.

It's not so much what we do now about our health, but what we have done in the past that shows up later. I used to love a tan, but now I avoid to expose my pale skin to the hot sun, but the tanning I did when I was young has done its damage on my skin.

MntnRose, I love your spirit of adventure and I am guessing that you are quite young compared to me. I would love to see your surroundings and could give up a lot of creature comfort to have a taste of it for a short while.

I have been lurking here and have seen many messages about communicating with the doctor. Have you been aware of this web site that discusses it.

https://www.relayhealth.com/rh/specific/patients/benefits.aspx

Yes, I did some research on Osteo and came up with a lot of factors that might be involved with osteo. I have always been quite active and trained and rode horses for many years. Then after marriage I raised dogs and showed and trained them.. So I have always had an active life and had hoped it would slow the osteo. According to the doctor it probably did, since I was diagnosed at 65.. I have not had a broken bone in probably 19 years and that one was a sheer stupid accident. I did have an aunt who had osteo and developed a really awful neck curve,, but not until she was 80.. Amazing actually. She lived until 93, but only the past three years were hard for her. She was really active. Used to walk outside or in the mall and then changed to at home on a machine.. She walked 5 miles every morning until 90.. I was impressed.

WOW! There's a goal to achieve. I am 86 and walk two miles every morning. I know I can walk five miles because I did it in a marathon but five miles takes about 1 1/2 hours and I just don't have time for that.

Robby

Stephanie - do you take any of the Fosamax type meds to prevent osteo? I'm reluctant to take any, because I've had bad reactions to just about every prescription med I have ever taken. Something about my system seems to reject medicines, with a few exceptions. Like you, I'm also thin, fair and small boned, so as the doctor says, "I'm an accident waiting to happen".

I opted NOT to take the bone scan, because I already know that it's going to look scary, and since I don't plan to take the Fosamax, what's the point? Which reminds me, I'm sure getting tired of seeing Sally Field, hawking Boniva! I'll bet they've made a fortune off those TV and magazine ads!

Wow, Robby, that's darn good. It takes me almost that long to swim 2000 yards.

John, thanks for the input about RelayHealth. I think it would be a good source for patients whose doctors participate in it, and the patients would know their doctors are agreeable to email. I tried listing several doctors in my area, but none of them were listed. Is RelayHealth an insurance group or who do they market to?

Regarding Wal-Mart and the $4 generics. I think it's simply a business decision, probably with the intent to increase store traffic and perhaps achieve some goodwill. I'm a little surprised at all the hoopla about it because it's just a trial in one state. As for buying foreign drugs, I'm glad I don't have to and can't think about it -- (I'm locked into my secondary ins. because if I dropped it, I could never get it back) -- but I would be leery buying them not knowing what kinds of safeguards the producing country required.

As we head into the last week of this discussion, what are some areas that you see as up and coming, or that you hope would be so. I was a supporter of the Bill and HIlary attempt of 1992, and still have leanings that way. There are a lot of people in this country who don't and can't get the care they need. What do you think of the Massachusetts experiment hopefully will have everyone in the state covered? Will it be enough? Will it work? Will it do anything for those without?

first to answer your question Pedln On Okinawa we didnt fill the bathtub with water We had 5 gallon jugs that we filled as soon as the news a typhoon was headed our way. While we survived the 4th worse typhoon while I lived there we also had two smaller ones.And we had to take everything outside that was likely to be blown about including dismantaling the swing set I wish you could have seen me doing that alone!we survived riots when the local newspaper ( American owned closed down) when Jeanne Dixon predicted earthquake would destroy Okinawa ( and would you believe we did have a minor quake on the day she predicted? )

Back to the medicine ..we can see that everyone who needs it has iit but we cant make sure they take it .I dont swallow pills < it is my one eccentric thing I do but when we lived in France without phones etc and our husbands away I choked on a tablet ..I was able to cough it up but in spite of my desire not to give into that fear I dont swallow pills .I am honest and tell my doctors that , several have told me that is okay they wish all of their patients would be honest since they knew they were not taking the medicine prescribed because they were not getting well,.My one daughter in law worked at one time in a program that helped mothers see that their children were fed properly and all the medicine for the children was supplied free of charge..but many of the mothers simply did not follow through with feeding the children correctly or giving them the medicine ( they claimed they did ) but the doctors knew they didnt because the children were still undernourished and did not get well. Many people who live alone forget to take thier medicine and not always older people or they quit taking it when they feel better In other words they dont follow through with the doctors directions.We have to take some responsibiliy for our care and then you have those who really should be in sort of care giving place who are not capable of following instructions and not all of them are seniors either. (Although I have had the wrong medicine given to me whie hospitalized and only my ability to refuse to take it kept me from a serious reaction and have had two friends who lost family members because a nurse gave them medicine they were highly allergic too.

We should see that medicine is available at reasonable cost to all but we have to realize that there will always be those who wont or cant follow through and the bottom line there is nothing we can take to escape the truth . Life is finite..

Like many of you I have always been active , still am but as much as I know what I should do I dont always follow through..Surgery 6 years ago kept me from following my lifetime exercise program and I just cant seem to resume it ..I am angry with me but I think sometimes when we have lost so many special people in our lives we ( or I should say I) just lose the incentive to follow what we know is best..

OOps it was here when we had a hurricane alert we filled the tub with water Not to drink but to flush the commode!

Pedln this is a timely and practical topic ..and interesting as well. anna

Marilyne.. I did have the bone test.. two different types, since my osteo is in my back and hips, but not other places.. I take fosamax.. I have never had any problems with meds.. Thank heaven, I have had high blood pressure since my early 30's.. It is a resistant types.. I walk, dont eat salt, stay at a reasonable weight, do yoga off and on, have tried meditation. Nothing budges the pressure other than meds and even then, I can only take a particular type pill for several years and then somehow I become immune to a type and must be changed. A real pain.. I want another bone scan this year. since I would love to know if the fosamax does what it says it does.. Fosamax is terribly expensive of course. That is what I hate. It has been out long enough there should be a generic, but there does not seem to be.

We're winding down this week. Have any of you had a chance to read the article, A Medical Crisis of Conscience? The focus is on the conflict health care providers sometimes face as they try to live up to their personal and moral values without jeopardizing their patients. Examples are pharmacists who refuse to fill prescriptions calling for medicines they don't believe in, such as the morning after pill. Other examples include respiratory therapists refusing to remove ventilators, doctors refusing to prescribe Viagra for unmarried men, several others. This site is not a venue for discussing the pros and cons of these different moral issues, but what do you think about the thrust of the article -- Do health care providers have the right to refuse to treat a patient because such treatment would conflict with their moral values? What about in emergency situations, disasters, etc. ?

A couple of things in the news the past few days -- The Wall Street JOurnal stated that health insurance costs have again gone up -- the median for a family policy is now $11,000+ for the year -- more than what a minimum wage worker would earn. Also, what about New York -- will they ban trans fats use in a restaurant.? Does that infringe of your right to enjoy french fries twice a year or should you be grateful.

Stephanie, there's been a lot said lately about Fosamax and jaw deterioration. Does that worry you or it is a very rare event.?

I'm just now catching up again.

As for my opinion, I am sick to death of everyone trying to babysit me. I'm an adult. I should be able to eat transfats or get a morning-after pill, or NOT wear a seatbelt if I don't want to. I am also willing to take the consequences of my own decisions, even if that means health problems. The only thing I want is good information to help me make my decisions, but I don't want someone else to make the decisions for me. Of course, I also think our legal system needs some adjustment to where people are FORCED to take responsibility for their actions instead of being able to sue anybody for just about anything after they make stupid decisions.

I believe in adults being able to make decisions for themselves without having to have an excuse note (the morning-after pill is used for other things also besides abortion and no one should have to stand at a pharmacy counter being forced to give an explanation). A pharmacist ought to dispense drugs which are LEGAL and for which someone has a prescription from a legitimate doctor. Period. He or she need have no "moral" problems with that. He is merely dispensing. How the drug is used is up to the patient and the doctor, and it is ultimately the patient's moral problem, same as a hardware store selling rat poison which certainly can be abused every bit as much as a medication.

The only line I refuse to cross is the one where active killing becomes legal by a health care professional. I believe in pain medicine even when it's addictive for someone who is terminal, and even if the pain medication does ultimately cause death as it relieves pain, and I believe in being able to remove life support systems if it has been requested by the patient, and allowing nature to take its course; BUT, I do not believe in actively killing someone with a shot or carbon monoxide (one of the newest methods I've heard about), or even knowingly giving them enough pills for the primary purpose of helping them toward suicide. Because in those cases the health care giver is actively doing something to "KILL". I believe once we have crossed that line, it will be a downward slide towards "convenience" instead of reverence for life.

I felt Terri Schiavo was MURDERED, courtesy of her adulterous husband and the courts. She was not terminal, merely disabled---and to me that whole thing was a slide into the abyss from which we will never recover, since no one knew what she wanted and there was direct conflict of interest with both an adulterous husband and a judge and an attorney who were involved with the Hemlock Society. In the case of not knowing, I would always opt FOR LIFE, and I felt that case was an absolute outrage and made me ashamed of my country.

I know that these days I'm in the minority with that opinion---but I am also sure I could never participate in the active taking of life under any circumstances (except in self-defense, and I would have no problem with that). I also admit that the line between one and the other is getting foggier and foggier every day, and the decisions become more and more difficult to make. But no one will ever be able to tell me that because "we put a dog to sleep" it's therefore kind to "put a person to sleep". A human being is NOT a dog. Nor would I ever request anyone to help me into death no matter how much pain I was having. If I were so far along as to not be able to commit suicide (if that were my decision) without enmeshing someone else, then so be it and nature would have to do it for me. I don't think it is fair to enmesh other persons in such a final act.

Yes, I do worry about the fosamax and jaw, but I keep being told that this condition is rare. I certainly hope so, since I am having a crown replaced on my right lower jaw next week.. I think that a pharmacist if they work for a company should dispense the prescriptions as offered. If they own their own store, then do what they want,, but warn their customers what they are doing. Many years ago, we moved to Long Island and when I went to the GYN for my yearly pap smear and renewal of the "Pill", I got the pap smear and then he told me that he was catholic and did not dispense any birth control things. I really believe he or his office owed me that information when I made the appointment. I wrote him quite a long letter and broke off any contact over that.. Still infuriates me to think of that smug face being holier than thou.. Whew..

Stephanie - strange coincidence! Almost the exact same thing happened to me when I was a young woman. After our first baby was born, we moved, and I went to a new OB/GYN for pap test, etc. I told him (always a HIM in those days!)that I wanted a diaphragm. He told me he was Catholic and did not believe in birth control, and proceeded to give me a short lecture on the evils of such things. As you said about your doc, mine also had the same smug and superior expression on his face. I'll never forget it. I remember being SO embarrassed or maybe humiliated is a better word. I found a new doctor.

When my fourth child was 4, I had irregular periods. My gyne dr. (Catholic) examined me. He proceeded to suggest that I return the next day for partial hysterectomy. The cyst was quite large but non-cancerous. He said I might have uterine cancer and he saw no reason to jeopardize my life and the raising of 4 children.

Thanks so much for giving us a forum to discuss how we view medicine and doctors etc .. I have left doctors who never reall wanted to discuss a problem and the possible solutions ..If a doctor doesnt consider him /or her a partner in my care then I am out of there,

I do want to say a word of thanks to the many doctors I saw while my husband was in the military For the most part they were caring and helpful..The personel in the base hospital were also very caring ..there were a couple who were obnoxious ., LOL there degree had come by way of the government and for some reason they then resented the agreement where they would then serve so many months. If I had ever ran into them in civilian life I would have avoided them like a plague.. A couple of times one of them would advise me not to follow a procedure that another doctor in the group gave me Which could have been unfortunate for him if I had reported it but since it was something I was already dubious about I appreciated the second opinion.

Because we were always getting new doctors we were also getting the latest in medicine and treatment which over the years certainly meant a lot to me ..

When you are given all the best advice about a medicine The whys for and against then I think each person has to decide if that is the treatment they want to recieve and any doctor who took that as an insult would not be my doctor.

WIthout a directive I think the courts or people should not make life and death decisions As MtRose says that is a slippery slope I have a directive that says if I am unable to make a decision and my condition will not get better I dont want to be kept on life support. One of dear friends chose to just allow morphine help her to the end of her life .she was suffering from untreatable cancer and had been brave but finally said this is enough I can still see her in the hospital telling one ( she was a sorority sister ) of our members who had gave her manicures all through her illness to please see her fingernails looked lovely ..She was so brave and she is my ideal when it comes to dealing with a terminal illness.

I believe in the Hippocractic oath FIRST DO NO HARM I hope I have quoted that correctly .. I am grateful for all the improvements in medicine , for the dedicated men and women who care for us ..and a POX on those who are pompous and show a lack of understanding ..

Pedln thanks again and my appreciation for all that shared their views . The best thing about seniornet is sharing our views ..It often opens the door to new ways of looking at things.. anna

It looks like some issues thought to be new or new trends, have been around for more than a few years. Stephanie and Marilyne, my experience was similar to yours, but much quieter and easily remedied. My first was born at a naval hospital where who you saw was the luck of the draw. When the doc at my first post-partum visit saw my diaphram, he simply said, "I don't do those," finished his exam and then one of his colleagues fitted me. I agree with Stephanie that if there is something the doctor doesn't do because of religious or moral convictions, somehow that needs to be conveyed to patients or prospective patients.

Pat, glad to hear you had such a positive experience.

We'll be ending this discussion this weekend. I'd be interested in your thoughts about this -- What do you see as a big change in medicine and health care since you were a young person? Let's exclude health insurance and medical costs.

One that I was unaware of, but was pointed out by one of my daughters, who works in public health. She said that 25 years ago, the majority of people who were in doctors offices were there for acute illnesses. Now the majority of patients in these offices are there because of chronic illnesses.

The number one biggest change that I see in health care, is the big explosion of prescription pills and medications that everyone is taking. This seems to have gone out of control in just the past 10 years, and I wonder if it is really a good thing, and if taking all the meds are really necessary?

I have friends and relatives my age (60's and 70's) who are perfectly healthy and active, but they take a handful of prescribed pills every single day. The usual round of pills for the average senior woman is Fosamax (or equivalent), one or two blood pressure meds, Lipator or other cholesterol pill, Nexium or (equivalent), for heartburn, prescription allergy meds, and some take adult onset diabetes pills, prescription pain pills for back or other pain, and sometimes even an antidepressant or antianxiety pill! (I know that I'd be "depressed and anxious" if I took all of those pills every day!)

It's a fact that people are living longer than ever, and I wonder if it's because all of these medications are keeping them healthy? But is there a downside? Don't all of these chemicals being ingested every day take a toll on the body or at least on the liver?

Pedlin, This has been a superb job of husbanding us through this maze of information. I think the main difference that I see in health care is the fact that you are the one who has to keep track and in some ways this is good.. I like being able to participate in decisions and in some other ways is quite confusing. Having a husband who has skin cancer of two different types, I know what we go through to make any kind of decision.. He is in his second round of radiation because the first time, they radiated two inches below a second lesion.. Not fun for him at all.. And noone picked it up or mentioned it at the time.. So.. medicine is getting harder and harder to figure. I do feel that many of the so called frail elderly( over 80) need some help in decisions. Not all of them, but the ones who are taking way too many meds at once.

Pedln your daughter is right but one reason I can see is not only are we growing older but there are thousand new ,medicines available ( or so it seems) that were not available to my parents and others. They just werent there. In spite of the lack of medicines many of my relatives lived to advanced ages ..almost 90 years old and some even made it to a 100. My father never saw a doctor until he was already ill and died at 65 of a massive stroke, Something I blame on his heavy smoking habit..My relatives who lived to an advanced age also were none smokers. I knew no women who smoked , not in my family or in my friends family and lets face it that does lead to a number of chronic illnesses...Having a father who rolled his own cigarettes and dropped pieces of tobacco all over the house certainly discouraged me from smoking.,I did try one but inhaled the smoke and had such a terrible time coughing and breathing I never tried it again ( I was 16) I had no idea that would be to my advantage.

Even when we can cure? a disease followups are necessary so the doctors offices are full of people being monitored I only saw a doctor twice as a child , once when I had malaria and again when I was 16 and had to have an appendectomy My mother lived to be 86 and until she was old she never saw a doctor, All 6 of us were born at home and my mother never had prenatal care. Obviously she didnt need to but a doctor would be called when she was in labor and that was it. Amazing now that I think of it !

That people are living longer of course we are helped by advances in medical care, At 20 I fell off of a small stepstool against the corner of a table and developed a kidney infection What was I given > Sulfa drugs which had been developed in WWII In my mind that was the catalyst for new medicine and treatment We had all of these servicemen and women returning with injuries and illnesses ( some of which we had never heard of before but they were exposed to by serving in foreign lands where they were known..)

Even though in the years we lived in Europe and as cautious as we were advised to be after our return I came down with some sort of intestional bug that required my daughter and husband to be tested and for me to be monitored for a year to make sure the medicine they gave me cured me. A friend from my church lost her husband , a missionary in Brazil from a intestional parasite that the doctors in the Kentucky town where he was pastoring had never heard of and thus had no idea how to treat.

We have become world travelers or travelers period and I think we have picked up and spread diseases in that way. At 78 ( 79 in November) I only use 1/2 of a tablet to help control my type II diabetes .. I am monitored every 3 mos and have always had low blood pressure and good genes I think to keep me so active etc ..As I have said I have declined to take some medicine my doctor recommended for various reasons When I read the little info sheets that came with the medicine I decided I wasnt going to take it ..seemed to me I would just be adding to a problem. That was my choice and even if my doctor would grimace at my decision he never tried to persaude me to change my mind. Perhaps I have just been lucky but I accept the fact that life has an end ...and I am fine with that...Please do not feel anyone should do as I do ..I also know many whose lives have been extended by the use of modern medicine ..my husbands initial treatment for his cancer gave us ten years we wouldnt have had,..and I have dear friends who are still with me because of modern medicines. so I dont deny they can and do help I am just glad I apparantly can survive without them...Thanks to those genes my ancestors gave me..anna

In the U.S. I read that there are now more visits to alternative medicine offices than to conventional doctors. Has anyone had success with chiropractors after medical doctors treated the symptoms?

No. But I know some medical doctors who had to help patients after they had been "treated" by chiropractors.

Robby

Robby: Are you saying that you don't think alternative medicine and conventional medicine can co-exist successfully, or do I detect a little humor in your statement?

No, I didn't make any such statement. I merely said that it goes in both directions.

Robby

sightseeing in California Gold Country. We visited some old graveyards and it was amazing to me how young people generally were when they died, including many, many children and babies. So we've come a long way in medicine because we have surgeries for conditions that people used to die of regularly, Help for women who died fairly often in childbirth, drugs to control other diseases that put people into the ground, and antibiotics for infections that killed thousands. Our life spans have increased dramatically, and I for one am grateful.

But medicine is at a point in history where it can go either way, continue to benefit human beings or veer off into some areas that I have trouble with, such as cloning and transplants and euthanasia (active killing). As with everything that human beings have control over, there are two sides to every advancement, for good or for evil. I only hope we choose the right path. Personally I would accept any sort of mechanical device or drug that might have a chance of a cure. Personally I would never accept any sort of transplant under any circumstances. I have witnessed just how cruel that can be to a family who has just lost a loved one, and in their grief being accosted by a "transplant coordinator" who is very good at convincing relatives of something they might ultimately regret. The pressure is INTENSE because it has become so socially acceptable.

As for chronic disease, for most of it medicine is still in the dark ages. Some chronic conditions can be controlled with medication, but the reasons why or the cures are still elusive. Therefore I see alternative medicine as a legitimate option. As far as I'm concerned, if I have a chronic condition that modern medical care cannot help me with, I should be free to seek any alternative medicine I want to pursue as long as I am educated enough about it to be aware of the pros and cons. That includes chiropractors or any sort of holistic health, and also includes some drugs which are now illegal, such as medical marijuana (I've never tried it, have no interest in it other than as a medical help) if it is prescribed by a doctor, and even heroin for a terminal patient if it alleviates pain.

I do believe that if we legalize euthanasia we will need medical specialists in that particular area instead of forcing doctors who went into medicine to save life into taking life. Even though it's my understanding that doctors do not have to take the Hippocratic Oath anymore, I believe most of them still live by that oath, and we as a society ought to respect that, while giving those who want it alternatives to ending life under carefully guided controls and specialist who are willing to participate in that, so that most doctors who are in the business of curing are not forced to participate in the deliberate dying.

We were out of town when this discussion started, so I haven't contributed. But I've followed along. This has been such an interesting topic, and it's been great hearing all the different points of view.

I'm moved to ask one question, though, from Mtn Rose's last entry - why do you have trouble with transplants? I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just wondering what your objection was.

pedln, this has been a great subject. And, well moderated, of course. Many thanks.

. . . that families go through when they are forced to make a quick decision and the pressure is on, and also the "coldness" when organs are harvested. Suddenly the person who died becomes a "cadaver" instead of a person, and that happens long before the family is ready to accept it as such. It is cruelty in another form, whether or not we like to think of it that way.

I recall one incident in particular in which a 14-year-old girl was shot and killed, the pressure was intense on the parents to donate her organs. The surgeon flew in from San Francisco with a picnic cooler and dry ice, harvested the organs from the "cadaver", placed them in the cooler and flew right back out. I typed the report of the harvest, and the whole time as the surgeon went through the "cool" harvest, my heart was with the family, wondering how much pressure they had been under (it was a Hispanic family with little English) and whether or not they regretted the whole thing when they thought about it later. But they were given no time to think about it.

I also believe the whole area of transplants is ripe for abuse, as has already been proven in third-world countries, where a patient goes in for an appendectomy and comes out with one kidney missing---or worse. Add cloning to that, and I can see the day where we clone humans on farms just for organ harvests. We aren't there yet, but the day is coming----and the thought of it disgusts me.

You know, people are so shocked when they hear about the Donner party turning into cannibals, and claim they would NEVER do such a thing. Truth is that I don't see organ transplants any differently. It is cannibalism in a different form. The Donner cannibalism went through the digestive system; our sort of cannibalism is done under sterile conditions via medicine, but it boils down to the same thing, using body parts of other human beings so someone else can stay alive.

I also know I'm in the minority with that viewpoint, but that's just how it is.

When discussing alternative medicine, it depends on your definition of the term. I have patients with chronic pain who for a long time before seeing me visited physicians and took medication with no help whatsoever and, in addition, had side effects. I have helped to alleviate much of the pain with a significant number of patients with psychotherapy. And psychotherapy has no side effects.
Do you describe psychotherapy as "alternative?"

Robby

. . . as far as I'm concerned, anything that helps a patient alleviate pain is fine with me, even if the relief is "all in the head". And anything that allows people to cope better with whatever pain that cannot be relieved is OK with me.

Whether or not it's considered "alternative medicine" I have no idea. I think sometimes the lines get very fuzzy, and that's also OK with me. I don't like boxes.

And on the other hand, the offering of organs for transplant often brings solace to families who have lost a loved one, knowing that part of that person will still live on and that he/she was able to do good, in spite of a tragic event.

Many thanks to all of you who have participated in this discussion. I've learned a lot and hope that you have too. One thing I think all of us will take away from this discussion is reinforcement of the fact that not only is it important for us to be responsible for our health and health care, but also to be knowledgeable and informed about our the treatments and care that we receive.

Mtn Rose - interesting viewpoint. Personally, I have instructed my family to have organ banks harvest whatever parts are still usable when I die - organs, eyes, veins, skin, bones, etc. We all feel very strongly about that option. Certainly it should be a personal choice. That just happens to be mine.

why take anything to the grave that could help someone else live, or live w/ better health?

It is often argued that we shouldn't start "A" because it MAY lead to "C" down the road and therefore some very good things never happen. We should judge each situation on its own merits and if something unethical is happening then deal w/ the people who are responsible, but don't deny me the opportunity for something because someone else MAY DO something "bad" in the same situation.There are so many circumstances where this has been the arguement and therefore hampered progress or aid, stem cell research being only one. ....jean

I am very late to arrive. I didn't find this forum until yesterday. I do want to add under alternative treatments that my husband and I see a massage therapist every week and it really improves the quality of our life.

I am all for alternative medicines. I have chronic pain but rarely use common prescribed drugs for pain relief. If I get the pain in my neck or head however I do use Tylenol. Its rare however I do this. I have a calendular, arnica, and peppermint rub which if you hit the headache as soon as it starts by massaging the rub into the forehead or neck ( depending where the headache is) you can stop it in its tracks. My daughter also uses this rub on her forehead for head pain. This rub along with heat pads is all I use for a condition that many people take strong pain killers to relieve the pain.

It has also been proven in patient trials that learning to take the focus away from the pain by doing some sort of interesting activity works too. I find it works for me. You can use your mind too to block out pain.

Carolyn

Do any of you posting here realize that in the Heath Matters folder there is a discussion of Alternative Medicine? There are many other discussions in Health Matters that might be of interest.

The discussions in Health Matters are always open. This Curious Minds discussion will end soon. Curious Minds usually runs from the 16th to the end of the month.

Robby, in post #93, asked a good question: "Do you describe psychotherapy as "alternative"? It took some reading and thought, but I believe treatment by psychiatrists is main stream medicine, and treatment by clinical psychologists is alternative or complementary therapy. I base this on the following:

Definition of Clinical Psychology...

A professional specialty concerned with diagnosing and treating diseases of the brain, emotional disturbance, and behavior problems. Psychologists use talk therapy as treatment; you must see a psychiatrist or other medical doctor to be treated with medication.

Robby: Do you agree?

P.s. Dr. Weil at U. of Arizona in Tuscon was responsible for the first training in alternative/complementary medicine connected with a medical school. Other medical schools, such as Stanford, have added complementary medical clinics.

Bill, I think Marjorie has made an excellent suggestion for those who wish to pursue that topic.

Marjorie, thank you for reminding us about the Health Matters folder, which has many pertinent discussions, some of which we have touched on. Not only is there a discussion about Alternative Medicine, there is also one about Osteoporosis, which many here have mentioned. There is a wealth of information available at the HM site.

Thanks again to all who participated here. Your participation is what makes a good discussion.

And, like you, I'm looking forward to the next Curious Minds.

. . that we still don't know much about. I think once we find the key most pain will be able to be controlled by the brain, with or without help from medication.

Using biofeedback to treat pain has been used for decades. One of our sons-in-law is a psychologist and he sometimes trains people in biofeedback for pain control.

Bill:-Your definitions of a clinical and psychiatrist are correct. However, you are implying that mainstream medicine must include medications.
How do you define it when a patient sees me for a couple of months for depression without taking medication and is doing well and somewhere along the line I refer him to a physician for a small dose of anti-depressant to stabilize him while I continue to give him psychotherapy.
Which one is the mainstream? Which is the alternative?

Robby

This discussion is now Read Only. Watch for our next Curious Minds topic. Also, please continue this discussion over in the Health Matters folder.

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines,
journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb.

Dale Kennington: Old Friends

Tell us about Four Guests, historical or living, you would invite
to a Dinner, Luncheon, Campfire Breakfast or Drinks in the Library
for an informed, spirited, soulful conversation.

When you put friends, strangers, food, drink and ideas in the same room
brilliant things can happen.
For that very reason, the British Parliament banned coffeehouses in the 1700s
as hotbeds of sedition

What is Conversation?
Paris Restaurant Dinner Conversation on youtube
An After-Dinner Conversation with Anthony Hecht, poet.

Tell us about each of your four [4] guests.

Fill us in on your historical guests – who else was famous during their time in history – if there were any wars going on – what kind of music and food would they have experienced during their time in history.

Where and when would you arrange your gathering.

How would you introduce your guests to each other.

What question will you want to ask each guest.

We may post questions we would like to ask your guests had we been a party to the conversation.

For our fantasy conversation, all guests will magically be able to speak English or, if you are conversant in their language, you will translate for us your questions, please...

And finally, tell us about one [1] potential guest you chose to eliminate from your fantasy conversation list and why.

Discussion Leader: Barbara St. Aubrey

This Topic starts HERE!

CHART SHOWING ALL THE GATHERINGS
BY HOST NAME AND THEIR GUESTS
HERE!

Well who is coming to your house for dinner?

Added one more plus to our fantasy conversation - all guests will magically be able to speak English or, if you are conversant in the language you both share - you will translate your questions into English for us...

With all the effort we go to even in our day dreams to accommodate folks that are special to us and I realized how much we take for granted when we do start to day dream about wonders, the 'if only' dreams ...

I do think - fantasy or not - we all think good conversation is what makes life meaningful for us - in a small way we engage in conversation when we post on Seniornet - but how many of you have day dreamed of an opportunity to find out about and discuss something important to us with someone special - maybe dreaming of sitting on a summer porch overlooking the ocean with the breeze blowing just enough to make you feel alive or being intent over a cup of coffee at your local Starbucks with a few folks you have admired and read about.

I love the scene in Dale Kennington's painting and I am so glad she allowed us to use her painting for our heading - it is just the setting I could imagine for my fantasy conversation.

OK whose going to pony up and tell us all about your guests and where you will meet and when and what you will want to ask them and how you will introduce them to each other - you know - what does your dream conversation look like...

This sounds like will be a interesting one. Will now pick my 4 people. Thing is. I have been working on family research for past year. I am obsessed with my fathers grandparents. Dated from the 1830s to l906s. Of all the people their lives I would love to have been involved in and to have known them. Their story would read like a book. Wish I would have started research years ago.

Now will think of 4 people.

JeanneP

We will be looking forward to your guest list Jeanne - interesting because I too have a family member from the past as one of my fantasy guests - this should be fun finding out about what was going on during the life of some of your family members --

What a great topic, Barbara. Thanks for the idea. I'm really going to have to think about this one. The premise reminds me of an old TV show done by Steve Allen and his wife, Jayne Meadows. It was basically this idea - actors adopted the personnae of various figures from different periods of history, and sat around a table talking about contemporary and historical events. Absolutely riveting TV. Wish there was something like that on now.

And now to work on my list....

Who would I choose.

Firstly I would choose Emily Pankhurst. The leader of British Womens suffrage. Secondly I would choose Jane Austen. ( a contrast there!) Thirdly I would choose Nelson Mandela. My fourth guest would be President Wilson. I would want him to come because he is an ancestor of mine and there are a lot of questions I would like to ask him about family and also his controversial Presidency. I think that Emily and President Wilson would have some very strong debate!

I think maybe my dinner party could possibly end with thrown plates and Nelson Mandela trying to broker a peace.

ewww Kiwi - fun - but my goodness thrown plates - lets see what we can find out about your guests - do you have any information about them you can share - I will start to research a bit -

Kiwi now would everyone in your party know one another or would you have to introduce them - what would you say about each when you did introduce them and of course where is your party - in your home or someplace where cleaning up thrown plates is part of life - hehehe like Greece... a patio overlooking the Adriatic maybe...

I love the whole concept and Kiwi Lady what an interesting group you have invited...and I almost hope Nelson Mandela throws plates too. Now I have to give some thought to who I would invite ..gee the list would be long ...every poet that ever wrote a line..One of the Leakeys who uncovered our common ancestor , and ..and...be back later when I do my homework ...anna

Well here is a link to Emmeline Pankhurst and another from Wikipeadia Emily Pankhurst she sounds like a guttsy lady - spitting at the police huh - ah so throwing plates may be right up her alley hehehehe

she and Mandela should have things in common.

And here is a link to Nelson Mandela you picked some movers and shakers Kiwi - fascinating dinner or luncheon or whatever it is you are planning...

Jane Austen may not have had many options for women's independence or to protest but she did at least have her women not take back those who mis-used them... so I guess one stroke for the rights of women...

I have to think a bit about a question for each that I would want to know.

Oh yes, tell us about the family relationship you have with Wilson - amazing...

Hmm 4 guests- the 14th Dali Lama William Jefferson "Bill' Clinton James Earl 'Jimmy' Carter Condaleeza Rice

Would be interesting to me to see if in an informal, no media present, conversation how Condy Rice would our could see the viewpoints of other world leaders with a history of compassionate decision making. I'd be especially interested in how it fleshes out in terms of the Dali Lama's experience of Tibet occupation and his excile re Iraq, etc.

Coming to dinner at my house would be:

President Roosevelt, To ask what he thinks of Bushs thoughts on changing Social Security.

President Bush, There should be a lively conversation there,

President Carter to help keep things as peaceful as posiable. I have met him and like him,

Princes Diana to ask her what caused the crash that took her life as she knows by now.

Think I would serve peanutbuter sandwiches to began with then fried chicken and porterhouse steaks all with the trimings.

Anyone out there want to come to this dinner

?

Ginger

Oh my we have the contemporary movers and shakers at the dinner table -

OK we have the table with Clinton, -- Rice, -- Carter and the Dali Lama,

Wow - compassion and politics and movers of people - although I am not sure yet how many people have been moved literally or figuratively by Rice.

Looks like Clinton met the Dali Lama and so no new introductions needed there.

Must run this in - while I was looking for some meeting that both Clinton and Carter attended I found this site to The Carter Center I would love to go there one day.

Where would this meeting take place YiLiLin and did you have specific questions for your guests or are you thinking they would know each other and you would simply give them the topic to discuss?

What a dynamite group...

President Wilson was my great grandmothers second cousin so way back along the line there we share a common root. I guess then it makes Pres Wilson a great great grandparents first cousin. I know my great grandmother was a Stevenson but where it goes from there I do not know. My mother has never been that interested in geneology she cannot even remember some American cousins coming to visit at my grandmothers house. I remember the visit vividly because they put sugar on their tomatoes! They also said tomaytoe. Fascinating stuff to a six year old. I do not even know if it was on the paternal or maternal side of my great grandmothers family there was a connection. I know she talked about Mills and something about Paisley and Pennsylvania I think. Was there some sort of fabric or yarn mills in Pennsylvania in the early days?

Well it looks like there is more than one of us who would like to have a conversation with Carter - I think at some point it would be fun to have a list going of the various guest

OK Ginger - I love it - peanut butter sandwiches - fun fun - but then all the trimmings on a steak dinner - oh my that should open the conversation - with a schnapps to top if off???

and so your table would include -

President Roosevelt and Social Security
President Bush
President Carter and the Nobel Prize of 2002
Princess Diana -- Princess Diana's Memorial website ouch her death still catches us in the heart doesn't it...

Both Carter and the inclusion of Diana softens your group doesn't it - I wonder and would ask if I was at your table - how Diana was able to bring home to her boys the improtance of the work she did trying to rid the landscape of mines.

And for President Carter I have a simple family question - does he see Amy often and what is she doing with her life.

Bush I feel is too busy with his work now to even hear any question I might have.

As for Roosevelt in keeping with the topic I wonder how he arrived at a plan called Social Security - what members of his cabinet helped design the plan and who else did he talk with or what books had he read to help him come up with this idea.

Kiwi - sounds like you and Jeanne need to get together - she is investigating members of her family and it sounds like that is something you would like to do since your Mom did not - how and when did your family move to New Zealand with this American connection you have?

Anna I just know your list will be wonderful - and we still have Jeanne thinking of her guest list and Mary Z - I cannot wait - this to me is so much fun - finding out a bit more about these special guests and to know these are the folks who you would like to include in a conversation that you would be hosting - wow...

Found this great link that has Clinton speaking about the Dali Lama in a speech - POWERFUL stuff -

His topic - "Interdependence and responsibility—why we should care about the rest of the world."

Edit: A bit about my guests:

Coming to dinner at my house would be:

President Roosevelt., To ask what he thinks of Bushs thoughts on changing Social Security.

President Bush, There should be a lively conversation there,

President Carter to help keep things as peaceful as posiable. I have met him and like him,

Princes Diana to ask her what caused the crash that took her life as she knows by now.

Think I would serve peanutbuter sandwiches to began with then fried chicken and porterhouse steaks all with the trimings.

Anyone out there want to come to this dinner ?

Thanks Barabara, Ginger

What would I serve at my dinner party.

Firstly I would serve an entree of NZ seafood. A large platter of various kinds in the centre of the table from which guests could take their fill.

The Main course would be a rack of NZ lamb. I would serve with that a fusion of vegetables. Vegetables cubed with basil leaves and cloves of garlic and drizzled with olive oil baked in the oven to golden brown. Vegetables would be cubed sweet potato, squash, sliced red bell pepper, cubed tomatos, sliced zucchini. There would also be a large green salad with my home made low fat dressing.

Dessert would be my chocolate brownies warmed and served with whipped fresh cream.

I would serve fine New Zealand wines with each course.

With our after dinner coffee I would serve home made biscotti.

I would ask Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, and Buddha and ask them to sit two next to each other and the other two across the table. Then I would shut my big mouth and listen.

Robby

Ginger:-I want you to know I was very serious. (That's the trouble when I kid around a lot.) I would be very interested in what each of them would say to the others.

Robby

Interesting Robby - here are the links to further our understanding of each - I hear you - no questions - just let them at it -

Jesus -- From Jesus to Christ
Moses -- Mosaic Covenant
Mohammed -- Mohammed the prophet
Buddha -- About Buddha

Robby would you further this picture for us - these are all figures who lived before any of the conveniences we take for granted - would you have your get-together in a place that is less populated - are they sitting at a table or on the ground - would you be sitting with them or observing from afar - is this an all day or all night kind of conversation - how do you picture it in your head...

Actually I don't have lead questions for the group= maybe a subconscious reason why I chose them. I think putting them a room together, they'd figure out the conversation. But this is nice, I'm seeing them in my mind and somehow I'm thinking they intuitively know that they need to unlock doors or open already unlocked but not yet opened- for Condy-- and I see Condy knowing that too.

Food? Sheesh I didn't know I had to feed them...So easy finger food that doesn't require talking with your mouth full... Gerolsteiner mineral water, goat cheese and crackers, corn chowder, cous cous served cold with cucumbers, tomatoes, vidalia sweet onions and drizzled with olive oil, mixed greens with pickled string beans; homemade 7-grain bread; pumpkin ice cream and black tea.

I found that people need to have something in common to facilitate conversation rather than someone giving a lecture and answering questions. Of course politics and religion fit but are usually avoided because they cause such furor between participants.

Personally I'd like to have artists of the twentieth century with examples of their work available to illustrate, but that's for ME.

The opportunity to explore the worlds best???? minds would make it my problem in that I would have to explore each specialty in order to participate and I'd absolutely have to do that. . .not only facilitate, but participate. so for me it has to be in an area where I have some knowledge and expertise. . . art and possibly music.

I don't think of musicians as being conversationalists throw. they are performers, not really creators. I think the subject could just be what is Creativity and how does it work in what you do. when did you discover it in yourself and how was it demonstrated. how does it affect your life in other areas, personal biographies like Georgia O'Keefe are helpful and there are several so she can come, Andrew Wyeth? perhaps, although he may turn out to be only a fine craftsman and not a heavy thinker. . .

psychology is part of it too. I keep wanting to ask Joseph Campbell to related that to the myths. he can come.and maybe Jung to balance that end of the table? so that's a possible list. I'd enjoy any one f them personally and would hope that they would enjoy each other and not through the china around as has been suggested. . . .claire

with favorite choices from each of the guests and a subject for conversation as well, perhaps even recipes.

Well I have decided on two TEd Kooser the poet since his poetry is triggering so many memories in my mind and I can say when he speaks OH YES I remember that too...MY Aunt Nora who was killed in an auto accident years ago but who was lovely lady and the best cook If she were there I wouldnt have to worry about the menu ..for dessert I would demand the wonderful yellow cake she made. I have no idea how she made it but it was wonderful It would last for a week in one of those old fashioned cake keepers Tin and with a design that always seem to move and flucuate It was the colors I know but why did it seem to move? I have several others in mind but cant decide...I am not sure I would meet in my home..I WOULD have to clean it up Perhaps I would rent a house near the ocean so in the quiet times we could sit on the deck and hear and see it ...I dont want this to be a debate but soft and pleasent memory when it is over ..

ROBBY I dont see you sitting there JUST listening LOL

anna

My choices would be Ernest and Marial Hemmingway, Audrey Hepburn, and George McGovern.

It isnt easy to decide who you would like to have for this dinner party but after a lot of mulling it over I have chosen Stephen Hawking and his wife Jane..I know it would be difficult for Stephen and he certainly couldnt come without his wife. I am hoping he can bring the equipment that allows him to speak and I would like to let his wife know how much I admire her..Now I have to consider the rest of the things Barbara has asked us to supply for our dinner ...I am glad I chose to rent a house in Nags Head for this event ..It is roomy and has an elevator from the parking beneath the house to the main floors. There is a fully equiped handicap room for I want Stephan and his wife to be comfortable. I think Ted Kooser will be happy with the guests and my Aunt Nora will love to provide us with her excellent cooking.Back later, anna

annafair- Nags Head! Can I pop down and join your dinner. I'll bring something from Tulio's in Duck- oops if it is still there...if not I'll head over to the mainland and pick up a pie at the farm market.

You've picked a great setting and I want to know more about time warps- and if journeying the warps affects ageing or we just get more done in the time we have.

Oh 'Loverly' - as Eliza Doolittle would say - the gatherings are so varied - the party settings and menus are just as varied -

YiLiLin I just love your choice of foods - not a menu I would have thought of but what a wonderful selection. I think we are getting ideas from each other.

The "cucumbers, tomatoes, vidalia sweet onions and drizzled with olive oil" sounds particularly tasty - do you serve that on top of the cous cous or next to it or are they separate dishes?

Ok more links here to catch us up.

Winsom your artist group would bring about a stimulating conversation wouldn't they - however, adding Jung is a stroke of genus - if you had not read the link in the heading about "What Is Conversation" you sure sound like you are a natural.

Georgia O'Keeffe -- O'Keeffe Museum
Andrew Wyeth -- Andrew Wyeth Original Works
Joseph Campbell -- Campbell Myth Journey
Carl Jung -- Jung Typology Test

Annie 3 Your choice of guests is different again - what is it that you are wanting to ask your guests or what is the theme of the conversation as it starts off?

Writer, movie actress' - one who was also an author and one who was an activitist for the poor in Africa and then a political figure - is there a link I am missing that ties this group together - or maybe they are folks you admire - please fill us in because this is an interesting grouping of people.

I am glad I had to find the link for you on Ernest Hemingway - I forgot completely that he won a Noble Prize.

Well here are your links...

Ernest Hemingway -- Timeless Hemingway ~ il faut d'abord durer
Mariel Hemingway -- Mariel Hemingway films -- Finding My Balance: a Memoir
Audrey Hepburn -- Audrey Hepburn - L'Ange des Enfants
George McGovern -- From Vietnam to Iraq:

Some questions I would have if I was also invited to attend your dinner party or luncheon or picnic under the elms - I would ask Ernest Hemingway if he would have chosen to live in Cuba or the Keys after Castro came into power.

I would as Mariel if she was related to Joan Hemingway who wrote that wonderful book that includes Picnic menus. And I would ask what her childhood memories are of Ernest Hemingway.

Audry Hepburn - oh just how wonderful a selection can you make - grace and true compassion in action - I think I would be so in awe and yet, I have a feeling she may have been shy. I think I would be interested in her Garden's of the World series and what gave her the idea to do the series.

As to McGovern - he is so tied in my mind to the anti-war movement during Viet Nam that the parallels to today are there - I wonder what parallels he sees since this conflict does not have a visible outside force wanting to replace the current government - I think like most who have attained prestige in their field they are very reluctant to pass judgment on the current administration plus that, he did loose his bid for the White House - and so really his opinion would be just one more that we could or not a-line with. I think I would like to ask him how he associated his thinking about Viet Nam as compared to his thinking when he so quickly volunteered and bravely did his job during WWII. What did he see in himself that made the difference?

These may not at all be your questions Annie and they may not be along the lines of the conversation you have in your head - but these are questions I would have for these folks if I was at your gathering...

I really am anxious to hear what your thinking is for a conversation with these folks...

AnnaFair having been a part of the poetry group reading and sharing the work of Ted Kooser I understand - and yes, you more than most of us have had a real connection with his work. And so Ted Kooser it is - I would think from what you have shared your aunts good cooking would be just the perfect compliment to your gathering - and Stephen Hawking - Wow - and his wife, Jane - I knew nothing about his wife or that he had a wife - so thanks for the introduction.

OK links so we can all get a better idea of who these people are and how they impact our lives.

Ted Kooser, United States Poet Laureate -- NPR - At Home with Ted Kooser
Stephen Hawking -- Stephen Hawking Universe
Jane Hawking, who was married to Stephen Hawking

ouch Annafair - it looks like not only were they divorced but Jane is rather bitter - several sites on the web going into her feelings about him after the fact - hmmm you may want to rethink your Nags Head dinner or maybe you were aware and hope they are on good behavior. Although, it is not often about good behavior among educated and mannered adults, it can often be about the unspoken tension - I do not get a picture of plate throwing as another party was described.

Hehehe an idea - if you were not aware of how bitter Jane is over her 30 year marriage with Stephen, why not replace Jane with YiliLin who has indicated she would love to be a part of your group...

I have not read anything about Hawking recently being involved in other things I always admired him and his wife and wondered how she managed all these years He always praised in her in earlier biographys SO I guess she didnt manage ..that is sad since she was there encouraging him when no one else would...I dont excuse him but feel that people living with so many problems tend to be self centered ..He did overcome so many things but this illness is progressive ..so I would think perhaps he changed in many ways. NOW I will have to rethink ..I dont admire him less but had some questions for his wife which apparantly she has answered ! AH me ..anna

Barbara, I am brand new in this group & am wading at this point. Would like to vicariously enjoy your discussion group & maybe become an active participant later, with yur permission safta

Welcome safta To Senior Net and books an literature. I will say we hope you stay with us. You will be getting a Welcome email please watch for it. We have a lot of fun on Senior net and it is very educational pertaing to health and just about anything you may be interested in.

Ginger

safta2 so glad you found us - just hop right in - this is a two week discussion that changes each month when another Discussion Leader brings us another topic - we started yesterday...

All the parameters of this discussion along with some links to further our understanding of conversation are in the heading -

Around here there are no bearings to catch onto - just go for it - This time we are in the realms of fantasy - so smile and share your day dream.

and since it's part of my personality to do so will let it all hang out. That is if i was telling the truth vbg. . .claire/winsum

I I F J

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and if you want to know what that means take the test yourself. the judgmental in introverted are only moderate, the intuitive and feeling aspects primary. I wish I could get resultls from my list of artists. Jung would have done it.

I have invited George McGovern to my high tea as a poet, not as a political figure. Audrey Hepburn I have invited not as an actress but to learn more about her work with abused and disadvantaged children.

I need him as a very successul and effective foil for the rest of us modern tyopes but I wish I could have Picasso as well. as Lebrun who does abstraction, expressively of figures,Georgia O'keepf mostly landscapes or flowers in abstractions and there may be figures will look and Jung who is famous for the universal icons found in all art from the beginnings and is it still? in our abstract and subjective imaes? what does he see and what does it mean. unlike robby, I want to play too. psych was my other major at UCLA and still fascinates me. if bridge to the subconscious which has been suggested, art and the two are firmly linked.

damn cant I sneak Picasso in somewhere? maybre instead oof Wyath/

for another possibly more real aspect of the guests. besides they would have much to say to each other. . . .claire

My word Annie I had no idea that McGovern wrote poetry - need to see if I can find anything on the web

hehehehe Winsom - choices - who ever you choose you may want to consider the one you did not choose to be the one you tell us why you ended up eliminating that one as you made your choice.

Ah the idea of family - we need to try that day dream conversation for the next time - great idea - we could be planning parties rather than conversations -

Start to think Charlie Rose and his round wooden table around which he is very intent in conversing with his guests. I almost chose him as one of my four guests till I realized he is doing so well exactly what I want to do with my fantasy guests and either he could do it or I could do it.

My long search is to find a location that matches my day dream - not as easy as I would like - reminds me of being a teenager and having a certain dress in mind for the all important dance and then spending days trying to find that dress till I finally learned that if a dress maker was in your head is the only way I would ever have the dress of my dreams and therefore I had to take from what was available and choose something that was the closest to what I wanted. Oh that was a bitter lesson... at times I still try to find things, people, ideas that match my dreams...

The groups that would be asembled that have been shared so far are just wonderful - there was a painting I found some weeks ago of a dinner in the home of a Mandarin who sat on a small dies at a table where there were 4 guests on either side and off a bit from the table there was a group of onlookers asembled who he raised his glass to acknowledge - I thought that was fascinating - I assumed that the diner in his house was like theatre - if I can find the painting again I will link it here in a post.

Anyhow that idea is what this discussion reminds me of - I think we would all like to be asembled as the onlookers for these conversations.

Annie if you have any example or title of a book of poems by George McGovern would you share it with us - the only thing I can find on the internet is the book he wrote The Third Freedom: Ending Hunger in Our Time

There is a poet Mac McGovern - I wonder if they are related - lots of poetry from Mac on the internet...

Hehehehe here is a sketch of Kiwi's throwing plates dinner - I love it - don't know if I love the idea or the fact that you can imagine such spunky ladies - I think her guest was one of the original suffragettes.

Anyhow here is the link: Caricature of a Family Dinner Before and After Having talked about the Dreyfuss Affair - 1894

Found it - Dinner at a Mandarin's House

and listening to more than one person at a time is tough too. so the whole thing needs to be videod during the dinner and shown agin in a comfortably furished living space for additional input, also videos.

Since money is no object dinner could be served in various locations specializing in what they serve for a given course. the only reason I've left out more artists and friends is that there is a limit to the number of guests.

I'd invite all of you as well. . . claire

mayb a picnic and everyone brown bags it plus drinkables. no ocean waves...too much noise and no spouses. this is a converence, bring books and portfolios, pics of anything. inside with lots of table space for spreading out and a lrge screen computer and a couple of large screen TV's hooked up to each other. seeral keyboards and a couple of tech helpers. soft drinks and coffee/tea accessable. presentations by eavch guest with comments after and then after that generalized discussion however it happens.

there that's simpler.

I was getting to the limosene stage for moving the courses arund geographically, taking advantabe of that open budget...we can dream can't we?

McGovern's poetry is contained in his out of print Autobiography of George McGovern, but it's still available I see at Amazon. I couldn't find any poetry of his on the net...I guess I'm the only one that liked it. LOL

awww Annie I wish it was available for us to read at least one or two of his poems - as I say - I had no idea he wrote poetry - Annie do you have a copy of his AutoBio - would you be willing to post us one of his poems - that would be such a treat - a side of McGovern I didn't know about and I wonder how many others in this discussion didn't knew about this side of McGovern --

Winsom I love it - and the dream goes on - hehehe yes we can and do dream all sorts of fantasy if we let our imagination run its course - logistics is something to think about - we could all fly around on magic carpets from one location to another couldn't we -

I think I am content on one place as if it was really a conversation with these folks - as if they were really alive today although I must admit I am seriously thinking of locations that are not around the corner from my house that had this been true would take a bit more money for me to swing. - I keep thinking of where I have experienced or seen others engaged in real conversation that is not only fun with an edge of excitement; conversation that is filled with curiosity and a desire to know more or think through the issues that affect the topic at hand as well as, 'informed, spirited, and soulful,' words that I think really nail what is characteristic of a good conversation.

I am remembering as a child more conversations after a family dinner - I am remembering conversations late, after a late dinner in restaurants, where there were those banquette along the wall and the men had taken off their jackets and loosened their ties as they spread one arm out on the banquette. Usually during these evening there was someone in the group who could make the group laugh however, the conversation was full and meaningful.

I am remembering long in-depth conversations my mom had with other moms as they sat overseeing us swim on long summer days. I am remembering in-depth conversations with Aunts and Uncles and Neighbors during long Sunday afternoon walks - or walks along the beach.

I sometimes talk for hours with my daughter on the phone late into the night about all sorts of topics, from education to poverty to politics to global warming to to to...

I do not have or see as many long conversations any longer as I did when I was younger. I have a few friends and we talk however, it has become mostly a rail about this or that issue. I miss the kind of conversation my mom had with her friends when they stopped on the sidewalk on their way home from walking to the store and they talked for hours till they finally realized the time and had to get home to fix dinner or whatever.

Yes, sometimes it was gossip and when my Grandmother came over for a cup of coffee or tea they did catch up on family with a bit of gossip thrown in. But let there be one additional family member or the lady next door join them and the issues changed. They discussed the pros and cons of a politician or, this and that about the war and the world leaders like Roosevelt and Churchill or, they sorted out what was said in church the week before. They had definite opinions about anything they saw or heard that was new. During all these conversations they seemed engaged, not only in what they were saying but in each other - they did not talk just to solve a problem which is so typical of today's conversations.

I look back and most of my adult gatherings were large parties - buffets - dinners where we went to a different house for each course - pizza making parties - pot luck suppers - there was fun talk but I couldn't say it was informed, soulful conversation - Seems to me conversation takes place more often now at workshops where there is a focus to accomplish something because of the workshop.

I see lots of folks sitting around having coffee but they are seldom engaged in conversation - they are either selling something or, on their computers while talking or, trying to convince another of their point of view or, its a business meeting, even among friends trying to organize something or, their on their cell talking but not engaged in conversation - its all become sort of in your face with being assertive the measure of engagement.

Hello ! This sounds so interesting !
I think I'm going to be an onlooker more than a participant though. There are so many people, particularly artists, I've admired all my life it would be difficult to pick just four and then I would want to talk to each one in a separate room.
Maybe one artist I'd invite is Monet, he also loved to cook so maybe he would help with a menu.
My location would be the wonderful house of Frank Lloyd Wright...the one with the waterfall running through it.

Barbara St.Aubrey ~ thanks for the painting of dinner at a Mandarin's house. It appears to me that his glass is empty and he's holding it up for a refill ?

I'd invite Sir Winston Churchill...he did over 160 paintings that you hear little of.
And I've always admired Dr. Albert Schweitzer and first became involved in his work with lepers when I worked at NIH. He was then head of WHO. He was also an accomplished musician and composer.
I wasn't going to do this but .... I'd have to add a famous musician to the mix.

Emma

when a social gathering is meant to be kept light. . .any hard feelings or loud voices are consider bad manners.

restaurants are noisy. can barely hear there.

I remenbe the after the party at my house talks everyone very loose, not drunk but comfortable some on the floor around a big round coffee table I still own, a small enough group no more than six so that no one was interrupted. in fact all of us too mellow for that. the subjects didn't matter the feeling in the room and between all of us did though.

My best experiences are now on the phone long one or two hour conversations with others who like that too. there are many who don['t. . just want to tend to business and then go do it.

invitation to talk on the phone. I like it best anyway e-mail your number and if it's in the usa I can call for free on my saved up rollover cell phone collection.

seriously many of us have hearing problems which even interfere with that. is this memory lane as well as fantasy. . .of course memories are always better that way, in fantasy. . .

emma fiddling around in the kitchen takes the discomfort from a stranger and conversation. we need something to do with our hands. so that's where quilting parties and sewing circles came in.

for anthing like art which is visual there needs to be something that we can see look at when we're talking abou ti. logistics a problem here.

hust a theatre screen tv with a connection to a computer and a place to put dvds and cd's might do the trick. comfy chairs with tv trays for snacks for all of us. all of us six that is.

planning is half the fun isn't it.

colin powell, bob woodward, hillary clinton, condi rice. for obvious reasons. food will be munchies . a round table low light comfortable chairs, muted classical music. firelight candles living room or dining room size room. there that's settled . I ask bob woodward why he supported bush for two books and is coming down hard on him in this latest one STATE OF DENIAL and what was it like having such good access to the gang at the white house.

I ask colin powell why he quit.or was he fired. what really happened between him and rove and rumsfield I ask hillary is she an observer only or in the thick of the international mess that's going on now. I ask condi who knows about china what she thinks china will do now that N.korea has declared war. and what is likely to happen to south korea as they try to please the US and keep their economic situation with N. Korea going at the same time. finally what happens to all the soldiers we, the US have stationed there?on the border between the two Koreas. It was our move to separate the after the war. thye never wanted it. unification would make what kind of problems to each. . .questions questions and CURRENT.

m personal opinion of all of the sn disccussions is that they are too focussed on the past. the present is more interesting to me.a vew excesspetion in the political discussions. . . .very limited and nasty in there so folks stay away. if my guests get into serious items at least they are all professionals and will not throw plates at each other.

who would I eliminate? condi rice of curse she's too smart for me and I don't trust her . . .all those sec os state skills on top of a woman banker/ sheesh. . .

Bush has painted himself into a corner. . .what's going to happen next is the theme. then the floor is open, no moderator just good manners.all of this is political which is my primary interest right now.

claire

This is it right here, a conversation that I really enjoy. Barbara, I love what you just posted and Emma Barb I too would invite a Switzer, a Monet, a Lloyd Wright, a Churchill and to make conversation sparkle, I would invite a Marilyn Munro and then it would be interesting to listen to the conversation and because they would know what each one is famous for, their speech would be more spontaneous, There would be no need for the hostess to steer the conversation away from touchy subjects, but watch out for a fireworks display.

Éloïse

I think I will find someone other than Hawking I wanted to ask Jane how she managed and the last I read he was still giving her credit How someone managed for 30 years would be interesting and a bit miraculous and I would have loved to hear how he managed with all of his handicaps SO now that leaves TEd Kooser ,My Aunt Nora ( whom I loved dearly ) besides being a wonderful cook,.and me ...anna

I had to really sit down and think about this question. Who would I invite? Well, I would invite Maya Angelou. She is so wise and entertaining. I feel she would keep the rest of the guests on a roller coaster ride of emotions: tears, laughter and tender feelings all being tossed around the table like a good salad.

I would also invite Anne Frank. I adore her diary. I also admire her great courage. I wouldn't have a special question for her. I would just want her to talk about whatever she wanted to talk about.

I would have Johnny Mathis. His voice singing Misty, The Twelfth of Never or just anything would make me just fall apart. I know Johnny Mathis is very shy. The others would make him feel more comfortable. (I would like to add Nat King Cole, but I can't go over the limit).

I would also invite Nancy Pearl. She loves reading. People who love to read love to talk. I think She and Maya Angelou would make a good pair. Nancy Pearl

If I had a bigger table, I would invite Matthew Pearl, Sidney Poitier. I would like to have Fair Anna as a guest too.

I can't have the dinner unless Koffi Annan can have a seat. I just can't do it. I really admire him. So, I am willing to pay extra greenbacks for his chair at the table.

Barbara, I love one of your points.

"For our fantasy conversation, all guests will magically be able to speak English...."

Claire, I would like to know whether Colin Powell was fired too. About Condi Rice, I would like to know more about her personal life. Also, what are her plans for the future?

I can see I don't belong in this discussion....I would be way to intimidated to have a good time in the presence of most of these people. Why invite people with whom you can't communicate. Guess I'll skulk back to another forum.

brun hilda I think it's like playing house, playing pretend. If I really had to do it, I couldn't put two words together. On a serious note, I feel it's a way of showing our appreciation for other people.

Hats...once again, my inability to "pretend" has gotten in the way. I've never been able to daydream or fancy myself with a movie star, etc. Always knew there was something lacking upstairs! Not to mention what it's done to my love life!

Brun Hilda, you are very funny!

brun hilda why not list four guests that you would be comfortable with and tell us a bit about them and what the theme of your conversation would be if not the exact questions you would use to start the conversation off.

Our fantasy conversation doesn't have to be the rich and famous or historical movers and shakers - they only have to "be"...

I need to come back later and respond to your posts - Hi Emma Barb and Hats thanks for dropping in - you too Éloïse - and it looks like Winsom you are working out your get-together right here for us to see how you are thinking - and Annafair we will be so anxious to see how your table of four guests works out...

Back Later - a full day today...

I"m enjoying everyones thoughts on their group of guests. maya would be a great addition to my table. maybe I could sacrifice ME?. such fun.

Hi, I find this fascinating to be able to invite 4 stellar people. I am tempted to start & am very hesitant so may quit in the middle. (my poor guests).first & foremost i would invite my grandmothr (deceased ) She was born in austria one of 4 girls all of whom became doctors ,EENT, Chemistry, opthalmogist & I don't know of the one that stayed in the States except that she died a millionaire.I would have her embelish on her personal history of those days. guest numbr 2 would be the first prime miniter of Palestine/Israael.He later died of cancer, in my mind a tribute to ieology of those people , that went over there to form a home.

didn't have room to finish so will be brief my third guest would be Ella Fitzgerald &fourth Albert Camus the French author. thank youo

didn't have room to finish so will be brief my third guest would be Ella Fitzgerald &fourth Albert Camus the French author. thank youo

do we do food etc? did I mess up?

Just had one of those maddening experiences where I lost everything because of a glitch on a web site that caused my computer to shut down. grrrr. Hopefully I can resurrect some of the post I was creating by going into my history for the links - OK back later - need to stop and make some late dinner for myself and calm down - I think I need some of the peace from EmmaBarb's 'Fallingwater' [Frank Lloyd Wright] location...

Éloïse De Pelteau ~ I'd thought to invite Marilyn Munroe but then I thought, she would have all those men forgetting why I invited them for conversation (ha). If I were to invite an actress it would be Betty Davis and if an actor it would be Robert Redford. But then I'd have to change my guest list to two authors.

EmmaBarb, exactly, that is why I would invite Marilyn Munroe, "she would have all those men forgetting why I invited them for conversation" If we are going to have an interesting dinner, forget the politics, the science and let's have interaction between men and women. It's a dinner, not a lecture because people would get up and walk away. Dinner and conversation go together and a good hostess would ask a timid guest questions to bring out the best they have.

I often read that a famous actress was invited to dine at the White House. I am sure it was for other purposes than to honor her contribution to the arts, but the conversation is livelier when a beautiful woman is present.

An artist see more than his craft because he has a keen sense of perception. A Democrat would not talk about politics with a Republican at dinner, the hostess would jump in and change the subject. The same thing with professionals, I don't see a scientist talking about the theory of relativity or other theories at a dinner. All these people lead interesting lives, so would their conversation be

Dinner conversation is where we need to enjoy ourselves with people we love and respect. The hostess will see that her guests leave the house having spent a very pleasant time eating tasty food accompanied with fine wine in the company of intelligent, witty and exciting people.

Sometimes the best dinners are with our family.

Éloïse

First of all, thanks Barbara for letting us know about this in our Poetry Discussion Group! But I have the jitters already because there are just so many people...oh dear, oh dear...even Winnie-the-Pooh couldn't keep his favorites down to four!!! (or did he?)

I'll do my best. But first, let me see how this works. I'm going to go back and read some posts.

p.s. are you sure we couldn't have an 'open house'????? or maybe a different four every week??? (Just kidding...seems I have a very 'silly child' active in me today!!!

Alliemae

...starting in the middle!!

I have just found the wonderful guide in the heading and now I can begin my selection in earnest.

Thank you Barbara and all of you other folks for the pointers I've seen so far in your most fascinating posts!!

I'll be back...

Alliemae

I love the photograph in the heading. Barbara, did you choose it?

Hats...so do I...it's lovely isn't it?

I'm now considering one of my first choices but it's not a firm yes as yet.

I'd love to spend a lovely afternoon tea and conversation with Louisa May Alcott. Her books were my friends for most of my life and I still love her books. I'd like to have a real adult conversation with her...we'll see...

Alliemae

Alliemae, what a good idea!

After much thought I believe these would be my 4 people.

first. My great grandparents on my fathers side. In doing my family research I could sure use their help and believe they were the most interesting of family.

PEARL BUCK. Have always enjoyed reading her books on life in China. Loved to have travelled there back then.

Being English. I admire Queen Elizabeth 2nd. I believe she has far more wit than she is given credit of having.

President Clinton. I sat and listened to him giving a talk in person. Could listen to him all day. Believe he will be one of the favourite Presidents in History in time to come. (and not for the sex mistake he made.) I think that will be forgotten..

JeanneP

look at my list two secretaries of state one current a former first lady and senator a famous reporter and writer who has just published BUSH AT WAR no. 3 or STATE OF DENIAL and am sure is loaded with questions, in any case an experienced interviewer bob Woodward. and I would be a fascinate observer with just enough clout to nudge in any direction I want to go. Politrics would be ENCOURAGED.

food a buffet so as not to be interrupted by service. maybe Hillary as first lady could suggest a menue.

and it could be held here. there are only three places in the living room/studio for folks to sit comfortably but they would be roaming around looking at all the art with a drink in one hand and encouraged to touch although this place has been likened to a museum. the round table in the dining room just off the kitchen will seat seven but five is good for this group .

I find that a good icebreaker is something that no one knows very much about in this case the art. the " I know what I like" syndrome does that. and gets folks talking. then the entire evening is spent i the dining room, the only place where we can sit together. we do need some service for that. clearing plates and filling requests from the buffet. wine bottle =s on the table for self serve.

that's How I would do it anyway and now that I've figured it out I WANT IT.

the only prerequisite is that I have to be famous so they will want to come. the art the reason they would want to visit, but only if it's important in itself,.

so it goes. maybe in another life. . . .claire

so I subscribe to this magazine which sometimes infuriates me. this is what hillary is ito right now. a quote.

"Just last week, New York Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton came to Virginia to endorse and raise money for Webb at an upscale French restaurant. Two days later, she sent $1 million to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee and the DSCC immediately turned around and bought $1 million in vicious attacks ads against Senator Allen."

this should liven things up a bit. NewsMax.com is the magazine.

this is making me watch the news for conversational material about and between? my guests. politics is IN considering howimportant it is this year. . . .claire

I just read the following;

The Life of a Poet A Conversation with Anthony Hecht NEH Chairman Bruce Cole spoke recently with Anthony Hecht about the writing of poetry and the relationship between poetry and art

and loved it. so much to think about. but it is NOT A CONVERSATION it's an INTERVIEW. huge difference. so is part of this to interview our guests and look up what the answer might be via google? now that's a biggie and too big for our two week format although and interesting format for another discussion witht he results to be shared. . . .claire

The reason I chose my guests is that they could discuss political and feminist matters, with very lively discourse, and we would have Nelson Mandela at the table to impart lots of wisdom and to be the reconciliator of the debates.

I think Jane Austen would be too ladylike to get too aggressive when she made her statements.

I myself love to go to dinner parties where we all try to put the world to rights. I have never encountered the aggression and bitterness when discussing political themes that seems to occur in the US. It was very hard for me when I first joined in the political discussions that personal attacks were so much part of the discussion. My guests were chosen because of the historical periods they came from as well as for their characters and beliefs.

Carolyn

I chose guests who are used to being attacked but in a social setting would not likely attack anyone present. it's usually the press that does it and bob woodward is that contingent and knows better he's apt to INTERVIEW instead. also the others are professional negotiators. they play NICE.

I would love to meet Nelson Mandela Winsome. Its been one of my ambitions. A friend who worked in NZ Parliament for some years did meet him and he shook her hand. She joked at the time she would never wash it!

Carolyn

what would you want to do?...any thing n mind to talk about except to t ell him how much you appreciate him. he's used to that. . .claire

7 of my best friends - four of whom are members of my book group - spent the afternoon w/ me at my request. We are all feminists and very interested in the political scene, but each one also talked about what she had been reading recently. Four of us were founders of the Alice Paul Institute for women's history and leadership training. And we talked about the tv shows that we liked and how much sex has interrupted a good story in many of the new series, not that any of us are prudes, but holy smokes can they have any more affairs on Grey's Anatomy? One of them is a GREAT cook and brought her "Judy's Lemon Cheesecake" - it's always said that way "JUDY'S Lemon Cheesecake" it's that famous.

If i was planning a dinner w/ famous people, it would include Susan B. Anthony - would want to hear all about her and Elizabeth's life and times, she apparently had a great sense of humor, so would be entertaining as well as informative; Jane Addams - she lived thru such a fascinating time, had great vision, was the first Am'n woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize and was often vilified for her work; Bill Clinton - great intellect, great sense of humor, great story teller( during Ann Richards' memorial service someone mentioned they had overheard a conversation between Bill and Ann and i tho't "now there's a conversation I'l like to hear!"; and Madeline Albright - fascinating personnel history, very smart, and also a fun lady.

OHHHH four is too few, i've got at least four more to ask to the second dinner.........some of them would be from the books and literature discussions.........but they're all going to be in D.C.......

jean

Here it is the middle of the night and I am finally getting back - this was one of those days when I think everyone I have ever talked to in my life was on the phone with me... my ear is actually red and sore - it became cold here [at least for us it is cold - in the 60s and tonight in the 50s, maybe even the high 40s compared to 94 on Tuesday!] and so with this ahum "cold" weather I think it made everyone antsy - the answer was my phone rang all day and night - of course that does not account for the hour and half chat with my daughter who has had cold weather for a couple of weeks now - ah so...

Everyone's thoughts on this are so delicious - I need to catch up - to me having the links to these guests round out their introductions - many of these personalities we think we know however, it has just amazed me what I have learned that I did not know or forgot as I read their Bio and other information about them.

Let me start with the easy answer to both Hats and Alliemae - the painting in the heading - I just loved it and so glad y'all like it as well.

I found it browsing the art links on the Internet - It was so right so I both called and emailed the artist, who lives in Alabama, seeking her permission to use it. I wasn't hearing back, and wasn't hearing - D-day was on us in order to get the heading approved and so I just went with a Renior painting held by the Phillips collection - OK but the Renior did not send the message as well about the intent of this Curious Minds - and then all of a sudden a few days later I get this wonderful email from Dale saying she was out of town on some much needed R&R - she was delighted that we were interested in using her painting - she then asked if we needed a linked copy that she forwarded.

The email copy turned out to be very dark and Pat Westerdale, our in-house computer guru, lightened it so that it looks like the piece I saw on the art site - Pat did a terrific job - of course I thanked Dale Kennington - told her there would be a link to her web site under the painting, which if you have not clicked on her site you may want to do that - I suggested she may want to post us but it was probably difficult since we did not have the posting box opened yet. And so that is how the painting became part of our heading.

Ok let me start grouping links to the guests at your alls parties - every party sets my mind abuzz - an amazing collection of guests - and how great to read the discussion about the differences in how we each look at entertaining and what we each see a gathering of folks can become.

I may not be responding in order as y'all posted - I'll get there --

Winsom I belive you settled upon:
Colin Powell -- Colin Powell and P. J. O'Rourke - September, 2004 Atlantic
Bob Woodward -- Newsweek excerpt: State of Denial
Hillary Clinton
Condi Rice

"Food will be munchies. A round table low, light comfortable chairs, muted classical music. firelight candles, living room or dining room size room. there that's settled.

I ask Bob Woodward why he supported Bush for two books and is coming down hard on him in this latest one STATE OF DENIAL and what was it like having such good access to the gang at the white house.

I ask Colin Powell why he quit, or was he fired. what really happened between him and Rove and Rumsfield.

I ask Hillary is she an observer only or in the thick of the international mess that's going on now.

I ask Condi who knows about China what she thinks China will do now that North Korea has declared war. and what is likely to happen to South Korea as they try to please the US and keep their economic situation with N. Korea going at the same time. finally what happens to all the soldiers we, the US have stationed...on the border between the two Koreas. It was our move to separate the after the war. they never wanted it. Unification would make what kind of problems to each. . questions questions and CURRENT."

You and YiLiLin have some of the same guests with a different slant on information you would like to have that your guests are the only ones who can answer - I wonder if having a conversation with political figures precludes the idea of serious dining so that munchies are more appropriate allowing for more conversation about difficult issues.

I also wonder how much dancing around or putting a spin on things would be the way they would each handle this conversation. Ahh but we can all imagine and someday these very questions will be part of a book - you just know that - makes you wonder Winsom if you should brush off a few books on obtaining and holding an interview so that you could be the author of a book giving us a glimpse into the hearts and souls of these guests.

In the meantime I think we would all wish we had some Harry Potter Truth Serum or have his wand or even his invisibility cape so we could be as a fly on the wall during some of their conversations that reports are not privileged to be included.

EmmaBarb I had all this completed the other evening when my computer went nutty and I lost it all - I thought your choice of location was simply brilliant - I had your whole get-together planned because of your choosing Frank Lloyd Wright's Fallingwater

Probably this is not how you imagined your gathering but I couldn't get your site out of my mind and so I have imagined a whole day with your guests. I have them arriving in mid-afternoon, meeting each other over an apéritif. Before evening closed-in everyone would take a walk in the woods when the two artists could share the shapes and colors and space arrangements they see and help everyone admire the lines of the house - then everyone would retire to wash up for dinner, maybe a short half hour nap so they could settle their first impressions -

You would have hired a string quartet to play just barely over the sound of the waterfalls as your guests return for dinner when the guests would feel more relaxed with first meetings out of the way - dinner would be followed by moving into the living area with an assortment of Eaux de Vie, Cognac, Brandy and after dinner coffee.

You would have arranged for an small organ to magically be installed in the house so that Albert Schweitzer would play some of his Bach and of course Churchill would keep everyone enthralled till dawn. After some sleep, brunch would be served at noon that includes some Pennsylvania Dutch Pancakes mit apple sauce, after which everyone would say their good-byes.

Albert Schweitzer: Philosopher, Physician & Humanitarian -- The Albert Schweitzer Music Award
Claude Monet -- Web Museum; Paintings of Claude Monet
Sir Winston Churchill -- Sir Winston Churchill — His Life Through His Paintings -- Winston Churchill: Author, Orator, Artist

I wasn't sure if you were including Frank Lloyd Wright as a guest or if you were just referring to him because of the setting you chose - here is another link to Wright on the Web: A Virtual Look at the Works of Frank Lloyd Wright

Your chose of setting had captured me so that for awhile I thought I would have to use it - I kept thinking of all the selections I was batting around and none seemed to be as wonderful - but finally I found something that worked because I wanted yours to be your special place that gives us all an idea of artistic wonder. Another link to Fallingwater scroll down for many photos of the masterpiece.

Well here I am again after my computer shut down - looking up some web sites is dangerous - and of course I was just about finished with your links Éloïse.

I loved your addition of Marilyn and wondered if your dinner would be a bit more sparklie if you chose a Bistro in Paris - the whole room would be a bit more edgy with smiles on everyone's face with Marylin in the room don't you think? Here is a suggestion Restaurant Helene Darroze The chef seems young - the restaurant photos are on this site diaporama Helene Darroze Of corse there is always the wonderful Le Procope to consider - much more grand without being a 4 or 5 star restaurant. Le Procope le plus vieux restaurant de Paris et premier café-glacier ouvre ses portes en 1686

It is your gathering and you have your imgage in mind, also you have been to some remarkable places when your son recently married, so maybe you have just the right location in mind.

Now if I can find from my history the links I had for you - grrrrr I tried to save the post but it would not let me - plus I really do not know what buttons to mash in order to retrieve a document when your computer goes down like that - I know there is a way but I can never remember which buttons to mash.

OK here we go with another set of links that give us another perspective of each of these guests...
Marilyn Monroe
Claude Money ~ Giverny
Dr. Albert Schweitzer, the humanitarian, theologian, missionary, organist, and medical doctor.
Frank Lloyd Wright: Master of the Organic Architecture
Nobel Prize 1953 Sir Winston Churchill

I am going to quick post this before something else happens and I loose it all again...

Hats just a fantastic guest list - Oh dear 5 huh --

"Maya Angelou. She is so wise and entertaining. I feel she would keep the rest of the guests on a roller coaster ride of emotions: tears, laughter and tender feelings all being tossed around the table like a good salad. Poems of Maya Angelou

Anne Frank - her great courage. I wouldn't have a special question for her. I would just want her to talk about whatever she wanted to talk about.

Johnny Mathis His voice singing Misty, The Twelfth of Never or just anything would make me just fall apart. I know Johnny Mathis is very shy. The others would make him feel more comfortable. (I would like to add Nat King Cole, but I can't go over the limit).

Nancy Pearl She loves reading. People who love to read love to talk. I think She and Maya Angelou would make a good pair.

If I had a bigger table, I would invite Matthew Pearl, Sidney Poitier. I would like to have Fair Anna as a guest too.

I can't have the dinner unless Koffi Annan can have a seat. I just can't do it. I really admire him. So, I am willing to pay extra greenbacks for his chair at the table."

And where is your table located Hats - are you meeting in the evening or morning - the Autumn or Winter or or or... Tell us a bit more - you have such an elegant selection of guests - there is fun with strong character within each however I see a delicacy about your guest list as well - Hats just wonderful...

Ah! Barbara I am still basking in the images of my son's wedding in Switzerland. Montreux would be my choice location for a dinner like ours and although I had been a few times, I had never stayed there before. That wedding was right out of a fairy tale. Of course a wedding is not the occasion for serious conversation, especially in this ideal setting. Everything is too beautiful, the scenery, the people, the food, the entertainment, my life is much more simple than that and I was overwhelmed with all that beauty.

But, if you could gather great minds and throw in a bombshell among them the dynamic changes. The conversation takes another turn, as the men try to impress the goddess.

A small gathering of no more than 5 or 6 people is the best I think because everybody can speak freely. There is nothing more stimulating than listening to great minds and if you can be lucky enough to entertain them in your home you are in for a feast.

Love this conversation too.

Éloïse

hehehe

here we go over-stimulated safta2

my grandmother (deceased ) She was born in Austria, one of four girls, all of whom became doctors; EENT, Chemistry, opthalmogist & I don't know of the one that stayed in the States except that she died a millionaire. I would have her embelish on her personal history of those days.
the first prime minister of Palestine/Israel,David Ben Gurion He later died of cancer, in my mind a tribute to ideology of those people, that went over there to form a home.
Ella Fitzgerald
Camus the French author.- Review The Plague

A varied group safta - have you read much of Camus' work? and Ella Firzgerald - oh my - I could see her and Albert Camus in deep conversation.

What about a location for your get together safta - did you have someplace in mind - would this be an evening gathering or a day time gathering and did you have any special interests you were hoping that Camus and Ella Fitzgerald would talk about? Please fill us in a bit more about your fantasy gathering.

What was the name of the Restaurant in Montreux Éloïse - maybe we could find it on the Internet - wouldn't that be fun...

I am enjoying this as well with the personalities suggested my mind just takes off imagining a conversation with these folks - your idea of setting men up with a beautiful woman is an idea I would never have thought of and yet, I have noticed how men react when a lovely women enters a room. I need to be more observant -

Jeanne your guest list is different again - I love the author Pearl S. Buck - and when I was a girl she was the author my mother often spoke of - something about her preparing food as in the Time of Christ for her children that fascinated my mother. I have several of her books here on my shelf that I still need to read but then she is just one more of the many who I want to read, buy the book, and just did not have time yet... I'll get there...And she is another one who I forgot received the Nobel Prize - we sure can pick winners around here...

There is a new movie coming out I understand about how the Queen reacted to Diana's death that is sympathetic to the Queen and explains a bit of how she saw her role, the role of the family and how it all played out. Sounds like a movie I would like to see...

Jeanne had you thought of the setting for your gathering and also what kind of questions would you use to get things off the ground - are there any particular subjects you want to hear about from these guests - what do you see they have in common that would lead them into conversation - I just do not think Bill Clinton has met the Queen - seems to me he met the younger generation of Royals but I do not remember the Queen visiting the US in years and years nor did Bill Clinton visit England in recent years as a Royal Guest that I can recall.

Now I can see your family and the Queen could have something in common - England - but how does Pearl S. Buck fit into this - oh please share with us your mind pictures of how this gathering would come about...

OK you start your guest list with family also:

My great grandparents on my fathers side. In doing my family research I could sure use their help and believe they were the most interesting of family.
PEARL BUCK Have always enjoyed reading her books on life in China. Loved to have travelled there back then.
Being English. I admire Queen Elizabeth 2nd I believe she has far more wit than she is given credit of having.
President Clinton Library

Alliemae so far you have Louisa May Alcott as your afternoon guest - is your gathering still being formulated or are you thinking just the two of you?

I have a tentative list:

Louisa May Alcott (for reasons mentioned before)

Eleanor Roosevelt (definitely one of my 'She-roes')

My Mom Mary, first generation Italian-American eldest girl child in family who had to leave school in the 10th grade to help take care of the house and the little siblings...and, who, in her own right worked for human rights wherever she went, more specifically the Girl Scouts where she integrated the leaders so that all the little girls could have mentors of their own race and ethnicity present and visual. Mary was awarded the Humanitarian Award in March, 1966, just 3 weeks before she passed away from leukemia. There is a plaque in her name at the Chapel of the Four Chaplains at Temple University in Philadelphia. My mom loved school and it broke her heart when she had to leave without graduating...she had wanted to continue her education and become a teacher. And...she was a fascinating conversationalist.

Ronnie Gilbert (a folk singer for human rights (formerly with The Weavers) and later a very famous and popular singer for women's rights...with whom I can't wait to harmonize!

But still VERY MUCH a work in progress.

Alliemae

Ah...Great Minds and all that!! I think we were posting at the same time Barbara!

I agonized over choices all last evening! So I've decided that since I'm having such a great time organizing this get-together, it will be the first of many (I'll just continue this fun process even after we've finished here for our one group...I love playing pretend!) and from here on when I want to just 'sit and think' I can plan party after party!!

Alliemae

Alliemae - what can really drive you nuts is thinking up places to have these parties and menus - hehehe yesterday when I was attached by phone to so many my mind kept wondering to this and that location even looking them up on the Internet - all the while ahuhing and ahahing those I was chatting with...

I'm considering (not sure yet) having our tea in the town library located in the front room of my great-aunt Hilda's home in Lincolnville, Maine. It is all shelves on three walls, the other being on the sunny side with a great window and there is also a nook on one of the book lined walls with a wide, cushioned window seat. It is airy and with a lovely view and very comfortably furnished...and I'm thinking of having it in either blueberry or blackberry season.

I think something about the mood of the painting in the heading brought Aunt Hilda's place to mind.

Alliemae

That was why for awhile I was thinking of my breakfast area - it has a window like the one in the painting with the addition of the deer spending so much time in my backyard it would be a nice setting - however, the folks I have on my list are so varied in nationality and where I struggled to find some common foods it was going to be a case of spending way too much time on my part away from the table or, have it catered and served - then I might just as well have my gathering in a nice restaurant that will think of guests first also that is not a big room with lots of sound.

I must say though it amazes me how the sound is different in public places according to where you are - especially in the South I always think of public stores and restaurants as filled with buzzing bees - everyone is so quiet when they talk that you never can distinguish a particular voice - I notice that about certain places in Europe as well - Austin has changed and become so big in the years I am living here [40 years] that the quiet buzz is only heard in smaller shops - I think it has something to do with how everyone talks - the hard consanents are softened or they are non existent and now that there are so many in Austin from especially California and Minnesota sounds around town have changed -

I also want the ambiance to be comfortable with the opportunity to have a break - I am thinking of starting in late afternoon on maybe a patio or terrace and then moving inside for dinner - I have guests that I not only want to hear from each and think they will be interested in each other but then there are similar tasks so to speak that three of them shared at different times in history. And so I see that just a couple of hours over dinner will not be enough time.

I am going to drive Winsum nuts since my guests are all shadows. One from sixteenth century China, another from seventeenth century Spain, another from nineteenth century Germany/US and finally one from Twentieth century Sweedan.

I am still working on how to present them to y'all - not only are they special to me but they are not your everyday personalities and so how to explain how special they are without writing an encyclical to do it.

Later today I should be able to get my bits and pieces together.

I just love this web site for this hotel in Austria -- after you get in by clicking on the middle link - Java takes over for a bit till finally the page opens to choose your language - I chose English and the page open with balls falling in place on the top of the web page in a crescent shaped format -

If you click the button/ball that says Wine & Dine three choice pop up and if you hit the one that says Restaurants the photos of the dining room come into view - the larger photo is also on Java and changes to show three views of the dining room - I almost chose this location - the music alone is a come on - but it was just not right - I like the soft seating but just a few too many tables.

here is the link Hotel Singer Austria

Poeple I have admired over the years, read thier books or poetry, stunned and enlightened by thier achievements, marveled that people could conceive some of the ideas they followed to fruition I did decide I wanted to invite Elizabeth Barret Browining ..some of her poems read many years ago touched my romantic side..I think I would like to invite for my last one an inventor or scientist because I am always curious about the whys and hows of any invention or scientific discovery Or perhaps someone like Columbus who sailed toward the unknown...I am still mulling. Love to read all the ideas and propsed guests I would like to be mouse in the corner at each! anna

The wedding banquet was "HERE" Barbara. The alpine scenery in your link is just as breath taking.

It's amazing how y ou are putting all this together but I can see it as a film on the sundance channel with you or your character as the principal narrater and interviews with al the participants from here and then clips of what they want to here and see neatly packaged as a film

you have me doing a book, but I'm visual and I have you doing a film. claire

A movie huh Winsum - well I guess I think we all have a movie going on in our minds eye that we can change characters and scenery at will - chapters in a book would be lovely wouldn't it - each dinner party a different chapter - I wonder how much conversation could be imagined - certainly their attitudes about a subject could probably be flushed out if there is enough written about the character and how they acted during their moments of fame.

Kiwi I remember you saying that your guests would be Emily Pankhurst. The leader of British Women's suffrage, Jane Austen, who you describe lady like, and Nelson Mandela to act as econciliator which leaves the debate that could cause sparks to be between your fourth guest, President Wilson and Emily Pankhurst.

I wondered why that conversation could be one of opposites - was there something about Wilson that said he was not for women's suffrage - My memory of history had Wilson involved with the League of Nations after WWI - seems to me he was so ill during his second term that his new wife, who he married after his first wife died only a few years before, became acting president carrying out many of his duties. I have not done much research on Wilson and should to better understand how that conversation could go forth - but maybe you have some insight that you would share with us as to how you see your guests belief's impacting your gathering. I am really curious now...

I am behind in reading the posts. I am still thinking about my evening of entertainment. I have invited too many people. Besides, I don't know where to take the people I have invited. I have many decisions to make.

So while we continue the dream list, just want you to know that tomorrow morning I'll be having a great breakfast discussion with two women, both seniors and each of whom has amazing things to talk about-- one a life devoted to environmentalism (before it was fashioinable) and the arts, the other a world traveller for women's influence in protecting the earth and empowering women to take action, author and consultant to the UN.

We'll be gathering in the back yard of an old home on an urban street- no lawn, no frills> We'll be enjoying 'real' oatmeal, cream and honey optional, fruit, whole grain bread, tea, juice (and I'll bring my own coffee...)

Our conversation will include planning for a major river clean up in the area, and fostering interest in some of the earliest women pioneers who were unsung heroes of the New England and Middle Atlantic settlements.

So just wanted to remind everyone that in addition to our fantasy gathering, there are amazing 'curious minds' and interesting people all around us. Wouldn't it be great if each person who posted could either host or facilitate a conversation with perhaps someone overlooked 'right in our own backyards' so to speak.

Barbara I have read a few articles where Wilson was described as being quite a conservative person in the fashion of the Scots Presbyterian Church. This church was not known for putting women forward. He was keen on social services and maybe his wife was deputising for him to keep this ideal on the roll.

I am just noting that quite a few people have nothing in their SN profiles. Thats a shame.

Carolyn

Jean your Birthday party sounds a delight with 7 of your best friends - just lovely - and so it was "JUDY'S Lemon Cheesecake". I bet you did have a memorable time -

I remember my 65th with a few friends - it was a wonderful evening of talk around my table facing my backyard with a cherry pie and tea after a light supper - the idea of the pie versus cake and red cherry at that, was a flag raised to my next adventure - my birthday is the end of January a bit of color goes a long way.

Jean belated Happy Birthday - let me welcome you to the other side of the divide as the government established the age divide back in the 30s. I found being older is so freeing and one of my smiles goes a long way now, far more than it did when I was only in my 50s.

OK your imaginary gathering:

Susan B. Anthony - would want to hear all about her and Elizabeth's life and times, she apparently had a great sense of humor, so would be entertaining as well as informative; Susan B Anthony Quotes

Jane Addams - she lived thru such a fascinating time, had great vision, was the first Am'n woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize and was often vilified for her work;

Bill Clinton - great intellect, great sense of humor, great story teller -- during Ann Richards' ~~~ memorial service someone mentioned they had overheard a conversation between Bill and Ann [Bill Clinton about Ann Richards at her wake in the Capitol Rotunda] and I tho't "now there's a conversation I'd like to hear!";

Madeline Albright - fascinating personnel history, very smart, and also a fun lady.

What a great group of women you have asembled Jean - and Bill Clinton belongs right there in the middle of them - [oh dear, I did not mean that as a backhand remark - but he does like and assoiated himeself with strong women] - We are still reeling around here after the death of Ann Richards and during this election frequently the battle cry has been, 'what would Ann do if she were here.' She was a force...I still choke up... bit she probably thinks from the beyond - never mind the tears just go on and "be" your best...

OH what a wonderful idea YiliLin - your breakfast sounds so real and down to earth - shades of the early meetings of Susan and Elizabeth Cady Stanton - I could see them eating oatmeal in the morning as they revved-up their next campaign. Great thought that we bring to life some group gatherings for real conversation and maybe even some activism thrown in.

And yes, conversation can be centered around the simple and not the elaborate dinner party - I bet so many of our famous folks that we are imagining as guests to our fantasy gatherings would enjoy a simple meal as part of the get-together -

I did read years ago that by eating or even drinking and nibbling while in conversation or making group plans makes for a more successful exchange - something about a busy mouth makes for a busy brain. I also attended a week long workshop where I learned fruit breaks bring oxygen to the brain more than any other food or drink. I still like my coffee though.

Aha Kiwi so there was some conservative thinking written about Wilson - this is a side of Wilson that I do not think we would have pictured except for you bringing him into your imaginary party.

Éloïse those mountains - oh what a fairy tale setting - it is amazing you did more than gaze at the mountains - the photo of the covered terrace is pure Monet.

How are you doing Hats have you caught up with reading the posts yet - I get lost in the links to each of these personalities - I love learning more and more about each of the imaginary guests.

Annafair what a struggle to have - if all our struggles were this easy wouldn't that be a treat - but you are getting there - isn't that often how we had to plan our personal gatherings in our real lives though - as we learned of this or that about our potential guests we would alter our guest lists to be more accomidating. Your gathering of Poets along with a Scientist sounds like pure magic.

In Montreux for a gathering, the guests could not possibly talk shop because nobody works in the same field, don't live in the same country or even on the same continent, but fortunately they all speak English, as someone mentioned the important issue of language before. The actress organized that dinner and she wanted to have a central location where everybody could be comfortable.

The guests already had been notified of the reason for the gathering and they agreed to come wholeheartedly because it touched on the most important issue facing the world today and as no one had found a solution to the problem, they at least would try.

The reason was not Irak, the Middle East, Korea, globalization, but something much more urgent and important and she was very involved in it having been to Africa observing the terrible tragedy that was enfolding in front of the eyes of the world for which there is no cure, AIDS.

In Montreux, several of the wedding guests, including the bride and groom, were deeply involved in the African Aids crisis having gone to Africa to teach, to help in any way they could in their own respective field.

Éloïse

Eloise, Bill Clinton is very involved with the terrible circumstances in Africa with Aids. I have been trying to stay in touch with what is going on in Darfour where George Clooney and his father are really involved.

Well, I have decided to eliminate Johnny Mathis. I will invite him to the next gathering. I know Maya Angelou can sing and dance. Besides, her poems are like music with good rhythm.

I would like to have a lunch buffet. That way people could walk around, talk and eat at the same time. So, easy finger foods. Also, cold beverages and coffee for whoever might want it.

The season is summer when everything is blooming but not wilted yet.

I haven't found my poetry book and I've done a library search and come up empty handed regarding George McGovern Poetry...I will continue to look.

I've really enjoyed reading everybody's choices. I still haven't made a decision yet. I mentioned it to John last week, and he loved the idea - and immediately came up with TWO groups. He won't be participating in the discussion, so you don't need to do anything about these suggestions, but I just wanted to share them.

1. Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha, Confucius. We'd get together on our screened back porch; serving whatever their dietary restrictions will allow. The topic would be "Is there a God?".

2. Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu; Hugo Chavez (president of Venezuela); Kim Jung Il. We'd meet in Chattanooga; serving fried catfish, hush puppies, cole slaw, and "sweet tea". The topic would be "How do we get out of this mess?" And the rules would be that nobody shouts, and nobody leaves until we come up with some answers.

I actually like Hugo I would love to hear what he has to say. As for the Korean Leader he hates travelling. I think myself he suffers from a real mental illness and has some agoraphobia. Maybe Madeline Albright would be a good person to be in that discussion. She is such a good diplomat although I do think most people trust Jimmy Carter. If anyone could talk to the Korean leader it would be him.

Maybe if I have a sit down meal, everybody would feel more comfortable. Walking around while eating one person might miss the other person or stay too long with one person.

here in southern CA and ORANGE COUNTY, the most conservative county in the US, or at least twenty years ago or thereabouts, I'm not apt to join with my neighbored in any effort which doesn't affect me directly. In fact although they are pleasant they are not for me or me for them. My friends in the Los Angeles area where I live for sixty four years previously were against my move but it was financially a plus I ignored the "claire, they will kill you down there" did it made at least enough in real estate by investing in personal real estate property and avoided mayhem by smiling sweetly at people as I told them I was not only an atheist but a democrat. we left each other alone.

adversity has been a large part of my life and I've chosen to retire from all that excitement and pain. it's not good for a person to be stressed out all the time. so, ho hum I just drift along and choose others to fight my battles as in my list of guests.

Winsome my most darling Cyber Pal lives in that vicinity and yep she is a staunch Republican. We don't talk politics!

Carolyn

...and as soon as I write it down I'll be free to go back over the other posts which, as I have skimmed through them, have been mighty interesting and I'd like to give myself time to truly enjoy everyone else's plans.

Here is my completed list:

Louisa May Alcott (for reasons mentioned before)
Eleanor Roosevelt ~~ Eleanor Roosevelt (definitely one of my 'She-roes')
My Mom Mary, first generation Italian-American eldest girl child in family who had to leave school in the 10th grade to help take care of the house and the little siblings...and, who, in her own right worked for human rights wherever she went, more specifically the Girl Scouts where she integrated the leaders so that all the little girls could have mentors of their own race and ethnicity present and visual. Mary was awarded the Humanitarian Award in March, 1966, just 3 weeks before she passed away from leukemia. There is a plaque in her name at the Chapel of the Four Chaplains at Temple University in Philadelphia. And...she was a fascinating conversationalist.
Ronnie Gilbert (a folk singer for human rights (formerly with The Weavers) and later a very famous and popular singer for women's rights...with whom I can't wait to harmonize!

We will be having our early afternoon tea in the town library located in the front room of my great-aunt Hilda's home in Lincolnville, Maine. It is all shelves on three walls, the other being on the sunny side with a great window and also a nook with a window seat on one of the book-filled walls.. It is airy and with a lovely view and very comfortably furnished...and I have invited my guests for August 15, during blackberry season. I think something about the mood of the painting in the heading brought Aunt Hilda's place to mind.

The Menu

Of course, being in Maine, we will have to have thinly sliced lobster tail on buttered toasts.

Cucumber sandwiches and Cress sandwiches.

A steamed clam with cilantro-lemon butter rolled into a mini-triangle chapatti…to celebrate Eleanor Roosevelt’s world travels and Louisa May Alcott’s lifetime longing for ‘faraway places’.

Ah yes, for our sweet tooths, country clotted cream and home made pear and ginger jam served on Aunt Sylvia’s two-bite sized biscuits.

Aunt Osca’s tiny individual devil’s food cakes with maple walnut butter icing.

And we MUST have fresh picked blackberries…cream and sugar is optional.

Beverages

Lemon aid,
Iced tea
Hot tea and coffee
Minted orange juice
Sherry, Port and my favorite, Madiera

We won’t need anyone to serve us as Aunt Hilda, who loves to cook but being from "Down East" does not like to chat, has volunteered to trot in and out from the kitchen just so she can be introduced to the women I’ve invited and go back to her own little world again.

As for the person I wanted to invite but didn’t, there are two. But no harm done. They are President Clinton and Benjamin Franklin.

President Clinton was so enchanted by the idea that he has insisted to be on call with his cell phone so that after we ladies have finished our tea and then our conversation (goodness only knows how long that will take!) he will pick us up and take us over to Lincolnville Beach where he and Mr. Franklin have been waiting for us women—Ben starting Bill off with a kite flying session while he played with this marvelous little contraption Bill's cell phone until they are called to come get us for as President Clinton said, “Women of such stature and strength as you all will be hungry again after all that talk and a walk in the salt air on this lovely stretch of beach and we’ll all sit together on the long wooden tables and enjoy a late afternoon repast of hot, fresh boiled Maine lobsters, corn on the cob and buckets the size of a child’s sand bucket filled with tender tiny steamed clams.Maine Lobster bake

And now I'm off to read. I must say this is jolly good fun and I'm finding it very relaxing. I love to daydream...

Alliemae

I can see it smell it taste it hear it. and your settings seem real. . .are you sure you don't write novels in your spare time? claire

Barbara St. Aubrey ~ I love your imaginary overnight dinner/ brunch affair with my special guests and location I chose. One thing I would change is to do away with the string quartet and just let the guests enjoy the relaxing sounds of the waterfall. Oh and I would prefer a concert piano rather than an organ for Dr. Schweitzer to honor us with some music of Bach.
I wasn't including Frank Lloyd Wright as a guest, just want to use the magnificent house he built over the waterfall. I have always loved the idea of that house.
Thank you for all those terrific websites. I copied all the shortcuts so I can view them when I have more time.

Mary Z. ~ I had thought of Confucius. I'd ask him if he really did say all those things.
Emma

I am reshaping my guest list. After a lot of thought, I feel Anne Frank might feel overwhelmed with these older folk. So, although I hate to do it, instead of Anne Frank I am going to invite Harper Lee. No more reshaping from me. Now it's time to think of something else.

Oh, Claire...with that last question you have just made my day. No, I don't write novels...just a few vignettes so far for my kids and grands, describing our family through my eyes as a child so that they can know their elders who are now mostly gone. But I'm a real good daydreamer!! Bless your heart...Alliemae

Hats, you must feel relieved. I know I was when I got to that point! Now I have to go back and remind myself of your other guests!

Be back later...still reading everyone's plans...Im really enjoying this discussion!

Alliemae

"That was why for awhile I was thinking of my breakfast area - it has a window like the one in the painting with the addition of the deer spending so much time in my backyard it would be a nice setting -" (Barbara)

Barbara...how charming that seems. Well, I'd be willing to cook and serve just to see the deer and have a glimpse of your guests...and I cook in several languages, countries and continents!! (I have even found a website with recipes from a Harem from when, in the beginning, I wanted to invite a member of a 15th or 16th Century harem to ask her what it was really like and if the women were ever allowed to learn to read and study languages as they have been said to have done in novels.) Oh, and by the way, three of my four children are either chefs and/or caterers and would help 'Mom' get those dishes ready for your gathering!!

Alliemae

MARY Z... the food you spoke of sounds like things I used to get at Bea's Place in Chattanooga. Is it still there, with the community tables and lazy susans?

I hadn't heard of that one, Bill, but looked it up in the phone book. It's still there on Dodds Avenue. Don't know about the tables, though. There are certainly lots of places around here where you can get that kind of food. And we DO love it! Did you used to live here? When? We've been here since 1986.

Hats I love it - hahahaha - No more reshaping from me. Now it's time to think of something else. - hehehe enough is enough - hahaha - I am rolling with laughter - oh how we can let our imagination drive us to such intensity as we must of course get it right - when you stop and think what we do because if you are at all like me there are many times I am making plans and each "i" must be dotted just so and each T must project exactly the intent of my thinking.

It appears Ann Frank's story made you feel protective of her since she was a young child that experienced the unthinkable - I think that says more about you and your good nature than it does about how Ann would or not feel among adults - my take on Ann is that she was so filled with courage and from her vantage point she has seen the worst in mankind so that feeling overwhelmed by adults would be the last of her reactions - but I think it is precious that you see her spirit as something to protect in the smallest ways and not ask this child even in death to act more adult than those adults let loose in this world. Sounds corny but all I want to say is Bless you Hats for your compassionate and nurturing spirit.

Hats- wasn't To Kill a Mockingbird an amazing book? I have read it several times and also seen the movie several times. It was on here not that long ago. I too think Harper Lee would be a very interesting person to have at the dinner table.

Carolyn

Alliemae I must agree with Winsum - wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, a vignette - an opp piece - worthy of a special interest column in the local paper - we really get the whole feel of your gathering and can hear the chatter, the wind and the good time in the sun. Your setting is so unique to you and your guests are being given one of the treats of their life.

With your permission - AND I WILL WAIT FOR YOUR OK - rather than rewriting bits and pieces of your post to get some links that would fill it out I would like to inject those links right on your post and of course like all the posts that have links turn the font color to darkgreen - IF you are OK with that please let me know - and be honest because if you feel that would invade what you have created than I will simply build a second post extracting those people and places so that there will be links for us to go further into the stories of your guests.

Alliemae you have a talent that we can admire - I think we all feel special to be able to see a talent like yours shared on a casual basis just because we are interested in creating community by way of this new technology.

Kiwi I agree with you it would be interesting to hear Hugo Chavez - I think he knows how to grandstand and has an expansive personality but part of that I think is due to his not being taken as seriously by the big powers that he would like. Until I hear more from him though I am not sure how sympathetic I feel towards his leadership - but I would like to hear more and learn how he plans on impacting the people he leads and in particular how he sees himself influencing South America.

I did not know that the North Korean leader suffers from agoraphobia. There was a reporter on Washington Week in Review this Friday [PBS] who had interviewed him and her take is, he is not as crazy as folks would like to make him out to be - he is focused and uses his looks and height to make himself appear less of a threat so that rather than looking like a Stalin he looks and acts like a bumbling crazy. There may be more to him than meets our eye or what much of the press and international officials are saying about him.

Both these men would be interesting to have in a room to get another perspective of not only the US but how they would calm the waters of international aggression.

And yes, I agree with you again Kiwi, Hats choice of Harper Lee is a good one - on that one I liked the movie more than reading the book - Gregory Peck personified Atticus so well I like carrying his image around with me rather than the image I had when I first read the story.

and it's really what our subject has been since we don't have time to explore not only our own choices but those of each other. Each of you has told me more about yourselves than I could ever know otherwise and that has been a trip.

However, I feel frustrated to simply stop here and not fulfill the promises that all of this suggests. thank you barb for a lovey ride anyhow. . . .claire

hehehe EmmaBarb I should be thanking your for the mind picture to further my imagination - it was fun -

and MaryZ your husband has an eye for how to get a conversation going doesn't he -

Interesting because one of the guests I tinkered with was Jesus - my question was going to be what he thought of the divergent groups today in his name and is this what he had in mind when he was preaching love 2000 years ago...

Then I decided he would never give me the kind of answer I was hoping for - I doubt he would put as much time into an answer as the second it takes to flick away a fly - because to him I think he would see it as just so many flies - he instead would use the opportunity to share more examples of love that could later be used as models of behavior and he would simply give the group the kind of attention he must have given Mary when Martha was asking why she had to work and Mary got to sit and listen.

We all want something from this Jesus and even I want him to judge those who I think are behaving aggressively towards others in his name.

And yep, Confucius did say all those neat things - in China every boy who ever wanted to amount to anything served the people in some sort of government position - in order to attain a position all boys in their late teens and early twenties took a state sponsored test - Their position in Chinese society was based on their score -

The test was based on the years and years that they studied to the point of memorizing the 5 Classics, written by Confucius and the 4 books of Great Learning - the latter written by the disciples of Confusius, which includes some of his speeches and the words of Mencius a scholar who was king at the time and who added to the work of Confucius -

This practice continued till Mao turned China upside down in the late 30s when the Emperor and his wife were carted off first to Manchuria and later to a camp for indoctrination.

Barbara, for once in my life I can't keep up with all of the wonderful posts. Should I say conversations??? Anyway, along with everybody else I think you make a wonderful hostess. Without you stimulating my mind I doubt if it would have travelled so far. By the way, I love your highlighting idea for posts.

Alliemae, you would make a wonderful guest in any setting.

KiwiLady, I am glad you loved "To Kill a Mockingbird" too.

Winsum, your company is always a delight too.

Alliemae, don't worry. I have to go back and remember whom I have invited too. Is it possible to be so old, yet young at heart, you can forget who is on your guest list????? If it hasn't happened before, it's happened now. I can't remember or I am all mixed up. Somewhere my personal computer is not working. Well, that's why we have Barbara.

Emmabarb, I love your idea of relaxing to the sounds of a waterfall. Only a artist could think of something so creative. By the way, whenever I see your name, I think of art. Isn't it nice to be so at one with your creative spirit?

I didn't remember that you were in TExas, did you see Ann's Memorial Service on CSPAN? It was just lovely, especially her granddgt's comments.

Alliemae - i agree, for my "second" gathering I would have Eleanor Roosevelt and Ben Franklin, actually FDR would probably be a good story-teller and socializer, but maybe ER wouldn't be as comfortable if FDR was there and vice versa? Ben F and Bill C is pure genius! Good thinking. How about if we added Churchill to that group of men?

At my "third" gathering i would invite John J Audubon and ask him why he blamed his wife for everything that was wrong in their relationship! TIC......teeheeeteehee......(inside joke for those in the Audubon discussion, sorry) .....

There are a number of people that i would not necessarily want to waste a whole lunch/gathering on, but for which i would have one question.......maybe that's a good future "Curious Minds" discussion?......jean

Mabel1015j, I think someone else mentioned Ann Richards too. I felt very sorry to hear about her death. What a down to earth lady! Whenever she would come on tv, I would stop to listen.

Oh, I would love to have John Audubon. After reading about him and his love for birds, the fact that birds helped him face the trauma of living through part of the French Revolution would make him very interesting.

Hat I loved Atticus so much that I thought about naming a son after him. I realised my husband would never agree!

Kiwi, I love that name too. We once went to Virginia Beach. There was a bookstore named "Atticus." The name, Atticus, really gives me goosebumps. Probably, because I am thinking of Atticus' wonderful character traits. If I ever have another grandchild, I am going to suggest the name Atticus.

Don't have cable Mabel but it was covered in full on our local TV channels - wasn't invited to the funeral and where I went down to the rotunda I chose not to go when the crowds were so thick while Clinton spoke - thank goodness everything was well covered by our local TV -

They had just done a pretty good job covering the death of Nelly Connolly which the nations seems to have remembered her as the last survivor of Dallas where as most of us remember he more as a most gracious lady who made the governors office sparkle with her personality and who went though bad times as well as good with John - we all remember when they lost everything except for what the homestead acts protects - 30 acres, the main house and their pickup versus a mule - many folks purchased things at the auction to give back to them.

Both women loved and admired- both with different personalities - both with winning smiles.

I still haven't come up with just four. I'd like to have my parents (my father died at 46 [I was 13], my mother at 75) and perhaps grandparents to learn more about their childhood and early family history.

I like the idea of having Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin or John Adams along with Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter or Thurgood Marshall to get some idea about how our country is different from or the same as what was envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

huh ahhhh - exasperating I know - have you ever done one of these workshops where you are asked to come up with 10 or 20 things to do or 10 good reasons to think a certain way or 20 things you want to do in life or - or - or - and taking pen to paper after you list about 3 or 4 things it is such the struggle to come up with the longer list - you put so much of yourself into dreaming of the issues surrounding each of the additional things or ideas you added to that list -

THEN the workshop leader says to put them in order based on importance and THEN after you have invested all that emotion they tell you to rip off the paper with only 3 or 4 from the list and throw the remaining list away so that you will then focus on making plans for those 3 or 4 top priorities - oh it is maddening - just awful - and yet, you know that in reality you will only have time to do 3 or 4 - Why didn't the workshop leader just leave us alone before we put our imagination into gear so that we started to dream what could be...

OK that is like our day dreaming about a conversation gathering - more than 4 folks and you probably slip into a party atmosphere without the spirited, meaningful, soulful conversation that is the kind of talk that really affects us in an intimate way. The kind of conversation we all hunger for.

We are going for intimacy here even if we are choosing famous folks - we all dream 'if only' we could sit next to these folks in an airplane or bump into them while in a restaurant - and those that have passed on, we read about them and drop our books imagining all our unanswered questions - remember when we were kids and said 'when I die and will ask so and so why such and so...'

And so this is tough but fun - we get to be that kid again that thought 'if only' we could get the answers to life then life would make sense or that we could show these very important folks a good time that they would never experience because of the crowd they associate with. Plus if we do not put a reign on our fantasy my goodness we could all float off to the moon and as Ted Kooser suggests in one of his poems, pick up stars to plant in our backyards...

Hats - this is how your conversation gathering has shaped up --

"Maya Angelou. She is so wise and entertaining. I feel she would keep the rest of the guests on a roller coaster ride of emotions: tears, laughter and tender feelings all being tossed around the table like a good salad. Poems of Maya Angelou
Harper Lee - We once went to Virginia Beach. There was a bookstore named "Atticus." The name, Atticus, really gives me goosebumps. Probably, because I am thinking of Atticus' wonderful character traits. If I ever have another grandchild, I am going to suggest the name Atticus. Guide with chapter summery To Kill a Mockingbird
Nancy Pearl She loves reading. People who love to read love to talk. I think She and Maya Angelou would make a good pair. If I had a bigger table, I would invite Matthew Pearl, Sidney Poitier. I would like to have Fair Anna as a guest too.
I can't have the dinner unless Koffi Annan can have a seat.

For a bit you thought a buffet but have had second considerations and are now considering a sit down so that no one corners another for an extended period of time. I think that is about it...

Barbara, I'm very pleased (well you almost overwhelmed me!) and of course you have my ok about the links.

There are some great photos of Ronnie Gilbert at:

http://ronniegilbert.com/

along with her biography.

So...just 'link away'!!

Alliemae

the book was a great book but for me the movie is unforgetable and Atticus will always be Gregory Peck. . .

I think I see more movies than read books about certain subjects since the story is sometime snot al that well written but it's still a good story as in the hbo series on ROME and others. I'm ot even sure there is a book except that I think I saw the title in one of the online book stores.

isn't it odd about focus. I had no idea she was an activist to me she's a WEAVER about my most favorite folks song group from when I first took an almost organic interest, since that's my area too. can't sing well which is the virtue of folk song. it's not expected and Iused to play a mean folk guitar, but haven't for a while now and calluses are gone.

I had a thought about all these famous people. their astrological charts are available. I wonder what they have in common and if there is anything in it. a possible curious mind?

oohhh Winsum why not - would you take a look and let us know what you find - it would be a hoot...

OK I am off Alliemae and I will use your link for sure... - did you have a favorite link for your town Lincolnville - I found several and I thought the photos were pretty good on a few of them - the one that tells about the Blueberry festival didn't have any photos of past festivals - I am thinking it is the photos we like much more than the tons of reading matter...

I will have at it and if there are better links that you know about for any of those I add please let me know your druthers...

Ok it was tempting to link too many web sites to your opp piece Alliemae - till I realized half the fun of reading your piece is in our using our imagination to picture it all based on what you have written -

Here is the link back to your post with all links for people places and a few things - and of course the wines each deserved a link. Oh yes, that was new to me - I had no knowledge of the Chapel or the story of the Four WWII Chaplins located at Trinity U.

Alliemae's Afternoon Gathering

this is a pretty good place to start. aside from learning the basics there is a list in each sign of important people who share the sign some with variations. of course the overrulling signiis the sun sign which we all use but it can be mitigated and changed by the planets. I had this room mate who is a pro and learned some of it. . .claire

http://www.cafeastrology.com/symbols-signs.html

this is their famous persons page http://tinyurl.com/yeaj6e

nicolas page mostly capricorn means a lot to me but maybe not to you. do some homework if we do this.

awww disappointing the famous people included are movie stars - didn't even see any of the movie people that folks have brought up here for their conversation - Winsum maybe you will find something that shows the astrological signs for the kind of people that most here would like to sit down with for a conversation.

Hats ~ Oh thank you, it's so nice to know you think of art when you see my name.
My idea for the house with the waterfall was to put everyone in a relaxed mood...but I'd hope it wouldn't put them to sleep

I'm thinking maybe for my fourth guest I'd ask Marie Antoinette, Queen of France. (born November 2nd) Gosh look at the georgeous painting

Claire ~ that would be entertaining to look at our guest's astrological charts.

I would definitely like some really good wines--say 25--and a pen with each bottle for the guests to write what they think of the wine. Some really good cheeses, grapes and french bread with brie to sample between the wine tasting.

Emma

That's it...that's it!! Claire, I'll tell 'the boys' to pick you up for the Lincolnville Beach Lobster and Clamfest after the luncheon [only 'after' because I already have the four alloted guests! : ( ]and you and I will sing with Ronnie Gilbert. I just know that ER and LMA and the rest of my guests would love that!!

Now I'm wishing I had checked my guests astrological signs. I don't know much about astrology either even though my sister Marge was a certified astrological and tarot therapist in AZ (in those days you could get certified in all kinds of 'alternative' things in AZ I guess!) but I do know that my mom's sun sign was Aquarius and I'm a Sagg sun (yes, at my age we use the double 'g' for Sag...the single 'g', as you can see, having an unpleasant connotation!!), Pisces moon and according to my sister, a Gemini/Cancer cusp rising! No wonder I'm so confused and confuse so many others!! Oh dear...I think the conversation we are having here about the conversations is THE BEST OF ALL...or maybe someone has already said that...

Alliemae

...and I love the way you are leading this group!!

By the way, the location of the Chapel of the Four Chaplains is Temple University in Philadelphia but I have a feeling there are more chapels honoring them including Trinity Chapel.

I am delighted to have found out through your links that LMA was born a day before I was, obviously a different year!!

Oh, and you delegate well too! (see posts #255 and #257! ; ) Tis a wee and endearing joke!!

Alliemae

Oh, Ginger, I do, I do…love your guests…love your menu…and I would love to hear Princess Diana’s answer too. And...I even know how to 'duck' just in case...

Alliemae

Just a quicky I am on my way out - found a site that I was able to pull up a couple of our guests -

Back later...

...I forgot Carl Sagan!

Louisa May Alcott: SAGITTARIUS
Eleanor Roosevelt: LIBRA (and lucky for the balance it gives!)
My mom, Mary: AQUARIUS
Ronnie Gilbert: VIRGO

and 'the Fellas'...

Bill Clinton: LEO (now, WHO is surprised???!!!)
Benjamin Franklin: CAPRICORN

"The premise reminds me of an old TV show done by Steve Allen and his wife, Jayne Meadows..."

Oh, I wish there was a show like that on now also...and I also wish there was really a 'Time Tunnel'!

alliemae

Allimae- I've been an astrolger/tarot reader for years, though must admit have not kept up of late and sheesh the Pluto thing!

But your rising sign is wonderful- remember the rising sign governs the first house- the 'face' you put on for the world and/or if not a conscious decision on your part, the way the outside world sees you (not necessarily partners and children).

So I imagine you are seen as a bright 'woman'. As societal expectations about the "place" for women, and for bright women, evolved over time, you've probably noted subtle and not so subtle ways people respond to you. Cancer the domestic side- Gemini the philosophical, creative mind traveller-- to some 'an air head' who does not know her place; to others a fine intellect 'confined' to domesticity and thus conflicted, or nowadays a touchstone for women who want to learn about and understand the forces that some of us had to deal with.

Gemini, ruled by Mercury- bet you could write a memoir, be the subject of a student's oral history project or write very effective letters to the editor on a variety of issues.

And so it goes for our guests, the whole person is 'read' as 12 distinct houses or areas of life, each influenced by signs, ruling planets, planets in houses and directions...and all of this progresses through life.

What would be truly interesting, is a sense of each posters astrological chart which might provide a few 'ahah' moments as to why we picked our guests.

Thanks Barbara for the links, I'm off to see what the internet has to say about the Dali Lama and Bill- and hopefully there's a chart posted and I can glean a few thoughts of my own.

PS- wow thanks again Barbara- the charts are posted- from the 'overview' look the oppositional congruency between Bill and the Dali is intriguing, especially the cusps of the 10th and 4th houses.

I "see' how Bill Clinton influences and is influenced by public connections and 'friends'; I would interpret his mother having a significant influence in his life. As time marches on, now I'd be very interested in his childhood years since I see a lot of the potential that was the awarded him at birth and probably had been nurtured inwardly before he even got to grade school, connected to or coming to bloom in his late adult life. Or the Bill of childhood turning adult, would manifest later in life.

His middle years, in my view. more influenced by the public persona actually awarded him and reinforced by others.

oh and ps- I see why Hiliary is still with him-- if not in a traditional marriage, in the areas of what are important in many relationships, Bill's chart suggest a person of quality, steadfast and loyal. Explaining the 'dalliances' is not for us to consider, but for many relationships people place a higher value on aspects of character above and beyond who one sleeps with and when.

I read in the Dali Lama's chart- for a different set of circumstances, a similar maternal influence. Though the Dali's manifests in the way he leads and makes decisions outside the personal. (whereas Bill's is a more personal, formitive relationship). Where Bill had alliances that helped him become successful, I see in the Dali chart outside forces that make success more difficult- the Dali had to 'work hard' to get things done.

So I'm back to being even more excited= these two are my guests, and if you recall I wanted Condy in the room with them. Oh and of interest, at least to me

I too am a Libra rising, Aries 7th house. So there you go....

YiLiLin I am so happy to meet you! I always envied my sister's ability with both media and she taught me so much. We would lose touch at times for years and then one of us would contact the other and we'd find out that we were both reading the same books (I'll never forget the 'Seth' books we read in different states but at the same time!) and delving into other interests such as reincarnation...it was uncanny.

Thanks for the reading! Very interesting indeed...

alliemae

and her sun the over riding force of all in this fire sine where enthusiasm activity and optimism reign was raised by a cool, air signk, quirky, untuchable but loving mother. they don't like to be too close physically or emotionallly these aquarians. but the sun is only the beginning I've got three planets there and only the sun in picses and they make the difference mercury, mars and venus. you see how complicated it gets even on this beginning level and the pros make it muchy more so. when I wrote this I hadn't seen LILI very profesional breakdown of the information she chose to use. we are so lucky to have her and her suggestion that she do a chart on each of us is what I've had in mind from the start but not the expertise to do it. here's mine. sun in picses at 22.5, venus and mergury at 22.4 and 22.6 in aquatrius along with mars at 10 there. forget the exact numbers of the rest but gemmie has omething and neptune in Leo andrising sin in virto. . . .now that's an opposition with my sun for sure and something in cancer. . ..sorta forget except there is not an earth sign anywhere. my birthday march 13 1928 chicago at five fifteen p.m.

gerda and I had placed the rising sign differently before we knew what time I was born and it made a huge difference. . .so it's not all tht easy. but we have expert advice so let's go for it. . . . claire

My first invited guest is Will Rogers. His dry wit and sage advice will keep us in tow. Some of his quotes:

"I'm not a real movie star. I've still got the same wife I started out with twenty-eight years ago." (He starred in 71 movies and traveled around the world three times).

"Live in such a way that you would not be ashamed to sell your parrot to the town gossip."

"Our constitution protects aliens, drunks and U.S. Senators."

I have just listened to the best biography of Jane Austen I have come across. As my dinner guest she would entertain everyone with her dry wit. She would be exceedingly polite but still well able to put a point across.

Carolyn

and I loved will rogers even as a child. nice face cheek creases and high cheek bones and a wonderful smile. still did as an adult for his droll dry wit. what a choice. . .smiles

I just remembered jupiter in aries and one other. . .and something called a T SQUARE which makes everything difficult. ol say that again.especially spelling and typing.

uranus in acquarious is probably affecting my art because it's been abstract now for forty years, although as my major at ucla it started out representational. we can fine "a ha's " almost anywhere because picses has a little bit of all the other chart within it and it's my sun. Yilil you started something with me and besides I miss my friend Gerda who now lives in spain and it's too expensive to really stay in touch. . .she's an aquarian and pinching pennies so ony does internet now and then at a cafe in Malagua. . .travel is her middle name though and it fits. took her a long time to settle down. claire

Welcome Bill - looking forward to your gathering - your first guest should keep everyone honest and help them see through the fog with a light hand. Will Rogers

Alliemae I wonder if Annafair has been on because your suggestion of Sagan could be just the guest to round out her list of guests - she was looking for a scientist to add to her poets.

Where Kiwi did you hear the Jane Austin Bio.???

Winsum sounds like you are resurrecting some good times as you mull over astrological signs - I never did get too deep into it but always thought it was fun reading the columns in magazines. In its day this was quite a science wasn't it - seems to me it was part of the basis for the three wise men taking off looking for the Jesus while they used astronomy for their directional charting. The chicken or the egg sort of question but I wonder if the placement of the universe at the time of our birth impacted us or did our birth impact the universe.

YiliLin sounds like you have nailed Alliemae - When you mentioned Rice and Clinton together, I became aware that I am forgetting the various groupings - I need to gather then in one post with the location of the gathering and the name of the host or hostess - don't want to make the heading acres long so maybe if I can get them all in one post and then have a link to that post in the heading - yep, that is the answer I do believe - not today though - still working on putting together my own gathering - finally decided where - It is going to dribble in a little at a time starting later - just got in and must put something on to eat - something hot it is cold for us - nearly cold enough to put the heat on - a fire would be just the thing tonight - reminds me of chile making and cookie baking weather.

I got it on tape at the library Barbara. Its only about four hrs in total. Two tapes but it was really informative. Its called Jane Austen - A concise biography by Helen LeFroy.

Carolyn

Is this it Kiwi Jane Austen Bio

Yep Barbara - thats the one!

Carolyn

I have to make a correction re: my post # 262. When I said I knew how to duck, I was referring to kiwi lady's remark about her get together...loved that guest list...loved the 'breaking plates' bit (may I suggest some Greek music for that bit?) and I agree with the need for Nelson Mandela as a peace broker!!

"Oh, Ginger, I do, I do…love your guests…love your menu…and I would love to hear Princess Diana’s answer too." (Ginger wright) was meant for Ginger's post.

alliemae

Oh my goodness I need time to look at all these wonderful websites regarding my guests.

Dr. Albert Schweitzer was born January 14th (Capricorn) (the birth date of my brother...I never realized that before.).
Architect Frank Lloyd Wright, born June 8th (Gemini)...not a guest.
Queen Marie Antoinette, born November 2nd (Scorpio).
Monsieur Monet was born November 14th (Scorpio).
Sir Winston Churchill born November 30th (Sagittarius).
My birthday is November 13th (Scorpio). Emma

Whoops EmmaBarb need to get a link to Marie Antoinette - be back in a bit to do just that...

Many interesting facts about Marie Antoinette EmmaBarb, HERE one of which is that she never said, when asked about the suffering population, "let them eat cake".

When she married the future king of France she was only 14 and he 16, two children by today's standards and she was totally indifferent to her position as Queen of France. One of 16 children of Queen Maria Theresa of Austria, the marriage was arranged for political purposes. True she was extremely pretty and was extravagant in her lavish wardrobe, she was also unable to make herself be loved by the French population, mostly because she was Austrian. Both the French and the American revolution started at the same time and, to me, the time was ripe to finally bring Aristocracy down once and for all in France as it had become so corrupted.

I wonder if she would be an interesting guest at my table EmmaBarb, she had no diplomatic skills and contrary to the popular image we have of Marie Antoinette, she did not have many lovers. She was not highly educated, nor did she have any say in the running of the affairs of the state.

She was mainly decorative and that is not enough these days where women are highly educated and influential in government circles. I am thinking of Segolene Royal of France who might become the next French Prime Minister, she has the attributes of a head of state, similar to Hilary Clinton.

She is becoming fashionable again isn't she - there is a new movie about her as a teenager with money and there was a great PBS special that I saw of her life - and yes, the emphasis was put on her youth and his youth - also, his troubles in the bedroom were discussed and how the Prussian king or prince of whatever - certainly related to Maria helped Louis out.

She could be just the delight for a table but then according to the age you would like her to be when she arrives - evidently according to the PBS special, when Louis was ill she came into her power and took on the responsibility of running France - to her own detriment - even getting out of the country - they did not know how to blend in and so they couldn't pull it off.

Sad when you learn of the flip side of history...

Thanks so much for bringing the link to us - Éloïse

My challenge is, how to tell you about some of my guests who are not commonly known – I decided to just tell you about them and why they are folks I would want to engage in conversation – hope this does not bore you but these guests are important to me.

Let me back up to explain how I even became fascinated with my Chinese guest – First you need to understand; when I was young, I consumed books. – The highlight of my grade school life was every Sunday I got to be the librarian while I was in the seventh and eight grades! The school Library was open to parishioners after the kid's 9: Mass until 1:30.

Three quarters of this good size library – bigger than the 8th floor LBJ library - was devoted to adult books. Everyone flocked in for about 15 minutes to maybe a half hour after Mass and then the library was empty for a half hour till the end of the next Mass. During the quiet time I read and read and read – no one there to stop me from reading the adult books and so after I finished reading all [yes, all] the children’s section I headed for the adult section.

I read an adult copy of Marco Polo’s journey filled with details of every aspect of his journey - I was enthralled. Later in life, I became more interested in learning the Chinese perspective of the west coming to China, which led to learning about the history of China. In the last 20 years or so, I was at first fascinated and then a student of Daoism. Finally, in the last 12 years I have helped many Chinese folks find homes here in Austin. It is natural for me to ask questions and do more research about the culture.

Because of my love of poetry I came across Wang Fu-zi who lived during the seventeenth century in China. Turned out, he was one of three men who lived during the last years of the Ming dynasty and the beginning of the Ch'ing dynasty, who were considered men of great learning. After the Ming dynasty (1368-1644) was defeated by the Manchurians these three men, Huang Zong-yi, Gu Yan-wu and Wang Fu-zi, participated in the anti-Ch'ing movement. [Ch'ing, the name of the Manchu dynasty, also said, Qing dynasty (1644-1911) ]

The Ming dynasty was the very last native Chinese dynasty. – The Manchu Qing dynasty, which insisted all men wear their hair in a queue which was the Manchu fashion, continued in power until Mao turned China on its ear. The three scholars nursed a strong hatred for the Ch'ing and all turned to writing. Wang Fu-zi did join what was left of the Ming dynasty that escaped to the south after, the Emperor and his favorite eunuch hung themselves. Wang was disenchanted with the corruption in the government established in southern China, so he hid with his family in a clay house he built at the foot of the mountain Ch'uan-shan, [hence his alternative name].

Look at the beauty of the mountains where he built his house – scroll just a bit to the moving string of images Huangshan Mountains in Hunan Province the cultural center of Hunan is Changsha or Ch'uan-shan.

During his lifetime, Wang Fu-zi wrote over 100 books - many are lost. His work included metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, poetry, and politics. Wang was a Confucian philosopher - His father was a scholar, and Wang was brought up reading the classics from an early age. He attended the fourth oldest continuous learning academy in China Hunan University which is the same University Mao attended. When Wang was twenty-four, having just passed his civil-service exam, [remember based on the 5 Classics written by Confucius and the 4 Great Books] China was invaded by the Manchu. He wrote commentaries on the Confucian classics, five on the Yi Jing [ I Ching - Book of Changes] alone, and he developed his own distinctive philosophical system.

My fascination with Wang Fu-zi and why I want him as a guest. [other spelling includes Wang Fuzhi – his name after he went into hiding, Ch'uan-shan or another way that name is written; Chuanshan Yishu]. – OK if these thoughts are new for you – take it slow and stay with me - Wang believed that the Way - which is more than being good as outlined by God – the Way encompasses all energy and material force. – Tao or, Dao or, The Way is a word that has never successfully been translated into English. – The best explanation is; Tao or, The Way is only energy and material force [qi or ch'i]. You've heard folks talk about the life force being "chi" - Wang says "li" which is; principle, form, or idea, doesn't exist independently. Rather "li" is the principle of the ch'i/the life force – and so if form is not independent of energy he is saying the whole universe has always existed.

When we say the whole universe can be seen in a speck of sand then Wang's concept makes sense to me – regardless how infinitely small, a micro bit of dust could have always been and continues to expand. We know the universe continues to expand.

To me what is astounding and I want to understand how he comes to this next conclusion. – First of all, he says there are no values or goodness in nature – we humans assign value and virtue to objects and action. – He says where our desires are not inherently evil – they are not unavoidable and are an essential part of nature. [Humans are expressions of nature] Moreover, he says, evil can be beneficial. Ok that much I get since it falls in line with the Chaos theory but then he says - our moral nature is grounded in our feelings for others.

I want him to further explain and discuss then how law deals with morality if morality is based in our feelings? It appears to me he is saying our feelings are the push and pull of society rather than an unseen indescribable faith that gives us the courage to live with the unknown.

I want to understand in light of Mencius, considered the second sage to Confucius, who lived 2000 years before Wang Fu-zi, taught that people are innately good and that one's nature can be enhanced or perverted by one's environment. Where as Thomas Aquinas, who is studied by philosophers regardless of their personal religion, goes another step and says we are in essence drawn to God described as goodness. Wang has this other view of humankind that may explain the 'how and why' of people like Hitler, or any despot, or for that matter individuals who annihilated people out of their "feelings".

I also want to know more about everyday life in China during his lifetime. – I want to know more about the corrupt Ming dynasty after the Manchu defeated them. – I've learned that when a child became an Emperor they ran the risk of the eunuchs taking over. – That is the story of Wanli, who came to power at the age of 9 and his mother ruled China for him till she died after he came of age. Wanli then let things slide and the eunuchs took over. – [Hidden Power: The Palace Eunuchs of Imperial China] – The night before Wanli hung himself the court fled south. – What happened that there was all this corruption in what was left of the court? – Did it have to do with the sons of Wanli vying for power? Again, since Yongli was only 21, did the eunuchs end up creating ill will between the brothers? Did he, Wang see only a bad ending and that was why when asked he would not come back after he fled with his family to the mountains hiding from both the Ming and the Manchu?

Bottom line inviting him to my gathering – this guy could have a face uglier than sin – but anyone who shows up dressed like this in traditional Huaxia or Han Clothing [before the Ch'ing Empire] will get my eyes to sparkle as I greet him with a broad Cheshire grin as I see splendor.

I know - and she has three more to go - honest they will be easier to introduce - there is one more that will take me a bit but still not as much as ol' Wang...

Tomorrow - Oh, the sun'll come out Tomorrow - So ya gotta hang on 'Til tomorrow Come what may - Tomorrow! - Tomorrow! - I love ya Tomorrow!

First of all, Barbara,I was riveted to the page by the depth of your infectuous interest in China. The only Province I am familiar with in China is the Xinjiang Province which I know through my study of and with the Uyghur Turks. The rest of China is a mystery to me.

The 'chimera scenic area' (West Sea Canyon)...the mood alone took my breath away! And those peaks do look like a lotus flower, don't they? The photo of the Ancient City, Hunan--is that circular opening a doorway? At Hunan U, the contrast between the pagoda and the more modern building was interesting. I am always fascinated by juxtaposed old and new.

I will be going back over all the details re: your first guest choice but did read enough to appreciate your information on his philosophy. I have a friend who is a Freudian Athiest but studied at a Yeshiva, who says that the Tao (or Dao) is the basis of all wisdom.

I can't wait to re-read about 'Wang' as you refer to him and I'm very excited anticipating who you might have for your other guests and the other details of your conversational get-together but I have to dash now. Mondays are not easy...pool physical therapy in the morning and land in the afternoon. Thank goodness I was able to do my Greek homework last night for today because posting it takes enough time in the morning!!

See you all later, alliemae

Got to dash but couldn't resist commenting on yours, Emma. Three Scorpio's...WOW...you and Marie Antoinette had better keep a good eye on Monsieur Monet!

alliemae

OK another of my four guests:

My great-grandmother on my mother’s side – my grandmother’s mother. - I know very little about her. – She was born in Germany. – Her married sur name is Weiland[t] – I understand it was spelled with the [d] that was said as a [t]. – when I found the linked site about the name and it fits since I do remember in the 1930s my grandmother getting a letter from Hitler inviting her back to Germany to occupy the family “castle” in the Alsace area which at the time was not yet controlled by Germany. In typical grandma fashion she pooh, poohed the entire idea – thank God – however, my grandmother was known as a beauty because her mother came from the Black Forest so the Alsace connection would have been my great grandfather’s heritage.

I know they were married here in the states and I know he fought in the Civil War for someone who paid him and as a result, he was made a citizen. I know my mother was the one who saw to it that her grandmother who by then was a widow got home safely after her visits. I do not even know when she died – or where she is buried.

What I would like to ask her is about her childhood - If she came to the States alone or with her family – what was the voyage like since this was before steam and they would have come on a sailing vessel. Did she/they come because of the 1848 uprising or was it for a better life or, because poverty was all around… Why did she brave coming so far to start a new life? I want to know if she was married to my grandfather when he fought in the war and what was her view of the war years. I want to know if she had heard of Walt Whitman and his poetry. In addition, the elusive sons she may have had –

We only know of my grandmother and her two sisters but there was a time my grandmother told me the story of how she met my grandfather and he was brought home to sleep in the bed with her brothers. When I asked about the brothers, in typical grandma fashion, she waved off the question with a hurmph sort of attitude. –

This is a woman who had 12 children and 9 died before the age of 2 – things like falling out of the chair a child was tied to and out the window to a great fall. Another born small and wrapped in cotton kept in a box at the back of the stove for warmth and evidently, it became too warm. – Tragedy was part of her life and so her mantra to me as a child was, there is no sense crying about things, there are worse things in life to cry about. And so, now you see that if I asked a question that got close to a painful memory it was brushed off in a way that she could renew her stalwart attitude. IN some ways my grandmother may have been a stoic but she was full of fun and adventure. Her main task in life seemed to be cleaning and taking her grandchildren for long, long, long, hours long walks.

Back to my great-grandmother whose name was Catherine – I would introduce myself as Elizabeth's daughter – I think my other guests would be fascinated and glued to their chair hearing her story and how an average person experienced this time in history.

Alliemae - I had forgotten about Ronnie Gilbert, I love her and all the Weavers. Is she still alive, i assumed so from looking at the link you gave. ........actually, for my FOURTH (?) gathering i'd like to have all of the Weavers and just sit around and sing songs and tell stories....that would be mesmerizing! It would have to be a backyard cookout. We could have "a chicken in every pot"(remembering the Woody Guthrie years), some "freedom cabbage" and "hot dogs" (for the WWII years,) some lime jello, meat loaf, and green bean casseroles (remembering the 50's) and some wine and brownies (representing the 60's).....teeheeteehee.......

Sorry Barbara, i went from the sublime to the ridicuous, following up you impressive comments.............just my mood today.....jean

Oh golly don't mean to impress but I guess there is nothing that clears a room faster than to get serious with philosophical ideas and questions - what can I say - that is how I think - I usually just stay quiet because I know the blank stare look that returns my chatter - ah so... However, here I took the liberty of sharing my day dream conversations...

Yes, the Weavers - have you seen the programs on PBS bringing back the folks singers that we were all singing along with back in the 60s - for me it was Joan Baez - and Jean Richie since I play the Dulcimer - but of course we all sang on long car trips the songs of the Weavers.

With TV for the back seat occupants of the Vans it seems kids today do not sing along driving their parents nuts until the parents would join in. Another change of the times...

Running late gotta go - meeting someone at 4:

don't get me started. . . my thing for many years and my profession for the nine years I taught it with folk guitar in my living room favorite female singer Joan Baez, not a real folk and enjoyed Jean Ritche who was.

learned folk guitar from bess brown haas who's father and brother were the folk-lorists who found HOME ON THE RANGE AND OTHERS. lots of leadbelly tunes, hoots in a home where I sat in a room with pete seeger, odetta, Sam Hinton and others and we all played and sang together. better quit . . .claire

oh, Jean, may I drop by please??? sounds wonderful...esp going through the decades with the 'favorite foods'...long time since I've heard reference to '60's brownies!!!! : )

winsum you never said if you would meet us at Lincolnville Beach for a singalong with Ronnie Gilbert...and Jean won't you please come out with winsum also

Oh...what a night...anyone remember "I've got a brand new pair of roller skates"???

alliemae

Claire, one of my happiest moments while I was a member of the Anna Crusis Womens Choir here in Philly was our choir singing with Pete Seeger in a big school auditorium at an event for the Philadelphia Folk Music yearly concert.

alliemae

Barbara - My SIL says "you lot are so deep" meaning me and my kids. They were brought up on deep conversations and when we all get together anything goes! We are not that good on social chit chat. I find I get pretty bored at a dinner party without an interesting topic or two on the agenda.

carolyn

better start working on my callusses again.it'll take at least a month to get them back in shape. I watch tv and play at the same time.it's one way of puting the time in and it first it hurts. so it's a distraction too.

hootnannies are for fun if you can keep the performers at bay, the ones who want to sing and play as the primos and have others accompany, but not too much. as it became popular we had too many of those. trading verses with any person who happens to have one is how it really works. that way anyone can start a song without knowing much of it and the group will take care of the rest or if they're really into keep it going with repetitions. hoots are for everyone. I learned to dislike performers . . .not the pros who put on concerts but the ones who require so much attention they take over.

so yeah I'll come and bring my collection of musical toys, tamberine, finger symbols, banjo, zither,etc etc. I

.used to pass them out to guests when we sang to get them to participate. and then I told them they'd have to sing loud because I couldn't. . . .etc. turning it over to them. told you not to get me started. lol claire

OK want to finish this up – I am on a roll here – I amazed myself as I was driving this evening – it dawned on me that three of my guests I met through reading their work. Books seem to be my intro to the people and ideas I admire – I bet my great-grandmother would be as excited about talking with others about ideas as most of the women in my family have been.

My third guest was actually the first guest I knew I had to include. This time the library was in High School and Ascent of Mount Carmel and Dark Night of the Soul had recently been translated into English. – The book was kept behind the locked glass case and every Library period for two months I requested it to read. – This book was only allowed to be read in the library. Sister Mary Mechtilde, the librarian, noticed and one Friday she told me I could take the book home to read as long as I had it back by Monday. I was speechless and while reading I was in awe of not only what was written by how it was phrased.

I had never read a sentence where the point was written as a negative. Here is an example of what still takes my breath.

In order to arrive at having pleasure in everything,
Desire to have pleasure in nothing.: In order to arrive at possessing everything
Desire to possess nothing.: In order to arrive at being everything,
Desire to be nothing.: In order to arrive at knowing everything,
Desire to know nothing: In order to arrive at that wherein thou hast no pleasure,
Thou must go by a way wherein though hast no pleasure This pattern goes on seven more times on various issues of wanting. Isn't the way this is written just a wonder...

The author, St. John of the Cross was a sixteenth century mystical theologian. Many think mysticism is Catholic… There are mystics in every religion. There are even atheist mystics, like Thomas Metzinger

What is special about St. John of the Cross - at the request of others in the church who wanted to teach using his evocative lyrical love poetry, he explained the un-explainable, his mystical experience using analogy, quotes from the Bibles as well as, the words of other philosophers to systematically clarify the meaning behind each phrase...

Among the various thesis raised in these books, building, like the proof used in geometry, the concept of Faith as a blind man walking in the dark; Hope as unseen because if we have something in mind when we hope then we are in our memory; and to do this waiting in loving attentiveness upon God while we feel the wounded emptiness of our souls.

More, he suggests that we do not need to align with God in a specific way. He uses a metaphor of going into the forest where a certain group of trees are grouped in a certain way with the sun slanting at a certain angle as we face a certain direction saying certain words. In other words, the relationship with our God in not dependent upon a certain church or certain rituals within the church.

These sixteenth century sentences and thoughts read as if they were written last year – they are my touchstone – I have re-read these books several times over the years for various personal reasons. – Since the Carmelites are a contemplative order, it was easy for me to study Taoism, which includes an emptying of the spirit.

What brought me to my knees this week – I never looked closely at his life story – I knew he had been jailed and while in jail under brutal conditions, he wrote his poetry. I tossed it off as possibly part of the Inquisition not being concerned that the dates were off. Well it turned out that when he and St. Theresa of Avila started the reformed Discalced [means barefoot and is in reference to their wearing sandals] Carmelites it was the Carmelites who practiced the older and now corrupted ways that cruelly beat him and jailed him. I was blown away. His own, his fellow priests, those who we think are more therefore, can help us.

It took me this week to put it together that when you are focused on one objective, as St. John of the Cross was focused on expressing his love for God, then you go on without allowing those around you who put up severe roadblocks to affect your objective or your work. He is still teaching me something today without a gathering of minds. A link to the towns and Carmelite monasteries still standing in Spain

This leads me to my last guest and how all three men were in life or death situations as they acted on what they believed in while in a corporate structure if you would. – They were all in the upper echelons of their associated systems.

My fourth guest is because of a book that my very best friend of 38 years gave me as a Christmas gift years ago. Markings the personal record of the spiritual life of Dag Hammarskjöld –

In 1951 he wrote – "The ride on the Witches’ Sabbath to the Dark Tower where we meet only ourselves, ourselves, ourselves."

In 1953, he wrote these thoughts – "Maturity: among other things—not to hide one’s strength out of fear and, consequently, live below one’s best.

Goodness is something so simple: always to live for others, never to seek one’s own advantage."

On 12/22/57, he wrote – "The madman shouted in the market place. No one stopped to answer him. Thus, it was confirmed that his thesis was incontrovertible."

The last entry 08/24/61 starts off –
Is it a new country
In another world of reality
Than Day’s?
Or did I live there
Before Day was?

I did not remember that when they found the body of Dag Hammarskjöld after the plane crash he had been shot in the head – Hammarskjöld was an avid reader, a lover of poetry, fiction, and non-fiction. He was an ethusiast of theater and opera. He loved to hike in the mountains.

I would like to ask both Dag Hammarskjöld and St. John of the Cross how they moved forward when they knew they had strong forces working to stop them. I would want to find out from Dag Hammarskjöld during the UN yearshow he went about putting the system that is still in place at the UN for handling situations that required the use of armed forces.

Éloïse De Pelteau ~ thanks for the link to Marie Antoinette. I really do feel she was treated just awful. Of course I would want the more mature Marie. I'm not familiar with Segolene Royal of France.

Claire ~ as I've told you before, I'd love to hear you play your guitar.

Barbara St. Aubrey ~ nothing is boring in this Discussion...I'm enjoying the conversations and the differences among us.
Thank you for sharing your Chinese guest, Wang Fu-zi and all the information. It may take me a while but I will check out all of those links
My brother introduced me to I Ching and Ying/Yang. He gave me the coins and all and taught me to read them (I do it just for fun but he was very serious about it). My brother studied to be a Monk but he had to drop out because it was too hard on him (he had emphysema).
By-the-way, I've always had an interest in Asian art.
I can imagine we will be wanting more than one dinner party to meet all these interesting guests. Emma
p.s.
Alliemae ~ From your posts I take it you live in Philly. I lived as a child in a boarding school close to Chelton & Chew and went to Germantown Jr. High before moving away.

Trying to plan the what and where of this gathering came in fits and starts - first I did not know if seventeenth century Chinese scholars sat on chairs or a cushion on the floor - found this site showing Ming Dynasty wood furniture

Then food - I knew Wang Fu-zi lived in the south therefore, he would eat rice rather than noodles but I knew nothing more about the foods of his area - well, it turns out there was extensive trade with the West and China for over 100 years - The Jesuits were in China at the time - The mountain area where he lived is known for liking hot foods much like Szechuan located nearby.

The Ming dynasty was known mostly for encouraging ceramics - this is the time when the famous story of lovers on the Blue Willow was created - here is a link with other Chinese stories depicted on Chinese blue and white porcelain

Then I thought -- how do I blend a mealtime with this kind of food and still not shock St. John of the Cross who did not eat much meat but came from sixteenth century Spain. I found this article that was fascinating - because of all the exploration "Sixteenth-century Spain was awash with rags-to-riches stories, and gold robbed from Latin America paid for everything...

The Spaniards proved themselves to be better at spending money than saving the stuff, and acted like medieval lotto winners, blowing their new money on anything they could get their hands on. They bought spices from the Orient, clothes from Italy, guns and firearms from anywhere...

Pretty soon Spain forgot how to make things. Production of everything from food to clothes faltered. As one observer at the time put it, "Agriculture laid down the plough, clothed herself in silk and softened her work-calloused hands. Trade put on a noble air . . . went out to parade up and down the streets."

"... inflation took hold in Spain...Inflation was not limited to Spain. The more the Spanish spent, the more gold left Spain for the rest of Europe, causing all prices to jump and the more gold, the more money and credit that could be extended.

This credit was issued not in response to a great increase in agricultural productivity but because of an abundance of a useless but valuable metal. In fact, Spain's woes were experienced elsewhere in Europe. In England, the price of agricultural produce increased sevenfold in the late 1500s, while the price of manufactured goods went up by 300 per cent."

Easy seeing why even the clergy was probably on a bender of spending and it makes sense why St. Theresa of Avila was encouraging St. John of the Cross to reform the Carmelites.

Well meat or not St. John of the Cross lived in the south of Spain so he also would be more familiar with hot foods with moorish influences.

Then we had my German/American great-Grandmother and Dag Hammarskjöld from Sweden, although he was such the traveler that he probably enjoyed many meals that were not the traditional foods of Sweden.

That was when I decided I had to have a restaurant - I remembered the few times I was in 3 and 4 star restaurants in Europe. They really looked at you as their guest. The waiters encouraged you to have seconds - the tables were never close so that every table had space for many waiters to bend and serve and the table's conversation was not overheard by another table.

Usually the menu for the day was either planned ahead for you or, it was prepared based on what was fresh in the market that morning. If the selections were based on what was in the market there were often several suggested ways they would or could prepare it.

That's it - I'm off to find and share the site of my gathering...

EmmaBarb I was thinking about you today while driving across town and it hit me - there has been a resurgence of interest in Maria Antoinette - I thought in these latest Exposés of a teenage queen she reminded me of Paris Hilton and I just wondered if they could ever have caste these actresses to this newer version of Maria Antoinette if Paris Hilton had not been setting her trends -

The second part of that, I think Paris knows exactly what she is doing and where Marie Antoinette may have been out for teenage fun, as time rolled on I think she knew what she was doing as well. Something tells me that many of these air head woman are not as ditsy as they come across.

I did not choose this restaurant but you must click on to the site and just leave it as the background sounds while you finish reading these posts...Hotel Relais de la Poste

And so the search for just the right location - my first inclination was La Cabro D'Or at Oustau de baumaniere - It has changed - I had not been there is 20 years and the charm I remember was not showing up on the complicated web site. The La Cabro D'Or was country and delightful but I could not see if the tables were set up under the arcade - the garden had really grown as it should. The inside dining room did not look as rustic as I remembered and wanted.

I wanted a place where we could start with coffee and wine in an outdoor setting and then move inside for dinner at about 7:30 - ideally I wanted someplace where you could feel a part of nature but not in an area that was so breathtaking it would distract from conversation. None of the restaurants here would fit the bill - there was a place in a park like setting in San Antonio but it is only opened for lunch and where you could cater for dinner I preferred the idea of there being other guests where ever we were - then it hit!!

When I looked it up it was even better - There was this hilltop restaurant in Cagnes near the Mediterranean in France - down below was where Picasso fired his ceramics and the town was full of displays filled with his work.

The hilltop restaurant was in an medieval châteaux with an outdoor brick paved pavilion like area on top shared by the restaurant/hotel and a few private residences - Relais & Châteaux Le Cagnard Cote d Azur -- if you click the 'Un Cadre Unique' there are three choices that will show photos of the restaurant and the one labeled 'Du Charme' will show the tables they now have on the ramparts at the edge of this outdoor pavilion area.

Perfect - drinks, coffee - some appetizers on the ramparts starting at about 4: at the end of September - it will be just cool enough for a light sweater till the sun sets when it will be a bit too chilly for outside dining. About 7: we move inside to the room with the fireplace. The foods can be adjusted to these varied tastes by the chef who does prepare based on what was good in the market - there would be fresh sea food, he does lamb and pigeon.

Juan de la Cruz from all accounts would be kind having worked in hospitals and as a boy he was the one who helped his widowed mother with the weaving.

Dag Hammarskjöld may have been a Cabinet Minister, an economist and systems organizer but he lived a life of service to people.

Wang Fu-zi lived when women in China were just so much background - regardless, I want to hear...

My Great-grandmother Catherine Weiland start by telling us her story.

And then I want to hear all about Dag Hammarskjöld's hike across Sweden into the arctic. Followed by the ins and outs of the Chinese court. Then I want to here about John's relationship with St. Theresa. Then onto how the three men developed their executive skills and how they developed the systems that worked best to get the job done and finally, into the questions of philosophy and their poetry since all three men wrote poetry.

Of course the conversation will take its course however, that is the broad outline that will allow me to ask a question here and there to steer the conversation in these directions. If other interests pop up than so be it - these are my talking points for this conversation.

We may talk well into the night and the chef may even come out and join us for a Digestif.

Now I can join Hats is saying 'its done' no more thinking

I haven't forgotten all the fun going on here. I have just gotten lost again in all the posts. I am on the sidelines for awhile just enjoying the view of people going past into famous restaurant and parks.

Hi YiLiLin, I am so happy you are here. I have always paused over your posts, coming away knowing more than I started out knowing. Your insights are wonderful.

Claire, I am a Scorpio. Is that bad??? What does it mean??? I see Marie Antoinette was a Scorpio too. I have always felt that poor woman was misunderstood or maybe???

KiwiLady, I love Jane Austen. What a wonderful guest.

Eloise, thank you for the Marie Antoinette link.

Nooooooooo...Hats, please...it's just that Scorpio's are said to be one of the sexier signs, or so I have heard--but also sensitive, tender and loving. So with 3 Scorpios in one group, one of them being a MALE FRENCH ARTISTE, I thought I'd just put in a bit of humor.

Gee...hope I haven't offended anyone. If I have, I do apologize most sincerely.

alliemae

Alliemae, I missed your post. Where is it???? Don't worry about offending anybody. We're having fun. Where is the post about Scorpios??? I missed it.

I had a similar experience, only the other way around. I was born in ME, and raised in MA in my early years and ended up here in Philly.

Isn't it a wonderfully 'small world' once you start getting to know people through SeniorNet and the internet in general! Thanks for sharing that with me...

alliemae

Oh, Hats....that was my post #287 based on EmmaBarb's guest list on post #280...

alliemae

I am enjoying lurking at the various dinner parties.

Re: Marie Antoinette. Naslund, who wrote Ahab's Wife, has a new book out - Abundance: a novel of Marie Antoinette.

Kathy

At a suggestion of ALliemae I will add Carl Sagan to my list ..we will meet in Nags Head NC and I have rented a spacious house with room for all, It is early summer , the last of May and there is an offshore breeze to cool us and the ocean is just across the street. the tourists have not really arrived at night the five os us will gather on the widows walk above the house It is open and we can see for miles ..quiet now only our voices talking ..Elizabeth Browning is amazed at how things have changed and is glad I called her to be with us..My Aunt Nora is comfortable just listening and we are all sated with her delicious dinner, Using the fresh local seafood she has served baked fish, with chives and lemon and some spice I dont recognize. Fresh vegetables purchased at a road side stand ,,,corn from FLorida , brocolli, cauliflower and carrots steamed just right with a cheese sauce, sliced tomatoes with a cucumber and onion salad filled us well, In fact we will have dessert later Her wonderful yellow cake with butter frosting ..with coffee to which we will add a drop ? or two of Bailey;s Irish creme ..Later I will tell you our conversation ...OH by the way I am a Scorpio and have always loved the fact we are the SEX sign of the ZODIAC ,,lol anna

Whew- you guys are busy posters, hard to keep up!

Anyway I think I'll check the 'see America' rates on amtrak so I can be the fly on the wall at all the gatherings.

I know early on I said I had no specific questions for my guests- but I think I want both Bill and Dali to talk about their mothers.

I know a BIG job, Barbara, but I look forward to seeing your chart of guests and hosts. I find it interesting the break down of modern and/or 'live' guests and those who chose historical figures, etc.

Way back a post about Chinese art. I have some wonderful watercolors done for me by a special friend who returned to China 'to die'. He'd emigrated to US during the 'gang of four' but knew from the first day he set foot on US soil that his life path 'required' him to return to China to die. Like many of the sages and Taoist philosophers of his age and lineage, he actually knew when the time was to return-- like the indigenous peoples who know when to lie down by the sea. Anyway the works have his 'chop', which is imbued with his spirit.

Can't recall who talked about I think venus in aquarius- without knowing the house position to see where the energy plays out- I'd venture a broad statement-- a life that has cyclical periods of being caught up in events that either required 'political correctness' and/or put one in situations with people outside one's social class and comfort zone. If the planets are in the 10th house, for example, this probably manifested more in the world of work. Perhaps moving to abstract art, which allows the artist to be the 'final interpreter', was a natural way to balance this energy. Being the only interpreter empowers the artist with the 'true knowledge' about the work, and it also be a very political statement.

But as someone clearly posted, a birth chart is definitely a complex interaction of a number of factors, which is why two people born on the same day- even at the same time but in different latitudes or longitudes, have different chart maps.

richard burton was one I think. anyhow the men are magnetic and powerful and the women are loyal and true to them...they better be. it's a powerful sign so what ever they are doing has impact.

virgo rising sign puts it in the sixth? house. anyhow I don't remember much about that but as well a art I'm political . . .a yellowdog democrat forever. just been in a chat called BOSTON TEA PARTY which is highly political and fun. haven't painted in the real world for a few weeks but the computer art works for me. . . .trying to make cartoons but they come out pretty dark and unfunny. and live in an area which is completely opposite to my nature and abilities. orange county CA most conservative and also a bible belt. sometimes this stuff works doesn't it. but just that, I've found sometimes.

Winsome my friend from Orange County is certainly conservative but is the most warm, loving, and generous person. We just don't talk politics!

SOME OF THESE PEOPLE COULD BE TERMED salt of the earth AND TO THEM IT MEANS TO BE CONSERVATIVE, USUALLY HIGHkY RELIGIOUS AND NON POLITICAL. I DON'T ARGUE WITH ANYONE AND WE'RE ALL NICE TO EACH OTHER, THEY JUST ARE NOT friend MATERIAL. THEY'D BE THERE IN AN EMERGENCY THOUGH AND THAT'S WHAT GOODF NEIGHBORS ARE FOR. . . CLAIRE

SHOOT i forgot the damn cap key again. ignore them....the caps puleeze.

Been away for a while on a trip with S/N so just getting caught up on the posts, all are so very interesting in here.

Alliemae, I am glad to read you like my guests. One more reason for me to like Clinton he is a leo, so am I.

Preaident Carter is an aries but it don't fit him me thinks. Hehehe! and you've got a brand new key

.

Hope to be back later.

Ginger

I think I'll ask Marie Antoinette....did you really say "Let them eat cake" ?
I believe she died in her early 30's.

About having 3 Scorpios in one group....believe me, that was not planned. I do find it interesting I was drawn to them.

YiLiLin ~ Wish there was some way to see those wonderful watercolors by your special friend. Several years ago I was given a gift of chop with my name and the little red ink pad in a beautiful red satin embroidered case. My young Korean-American friend who gave me this lovely gift (knowing my interest in Asian art) is no longer of this earth.

Ginger ~ welcome back. From all accounts so far it looks like you all had a wonderful time and the conference was great. We should be getting some new people posting here as a result.
Emma

Hope so too!

I had hoped to attend the conference but decided to go to MA instead to see my 2-year-old grandson while he's still an 'only child' and his little sister is due to join us early part of November.
But that trip had to be cancelled...son said everything was way more hectic than they had anticipated so we postponed till maybe after Thanksgiving. As a result I missed both! I was sooooo disappointed.

Ginger, I'm glad you had a wonderful time!

alliemae

Yes Emma I'd been given a chop also- but I gave to my friend and asked him to take it to China with him- I forget the name of the mountain he was going to climb and put the chop as far up as he got. It is a famous mountain, in fact is depicted in one of the water colors- it allows the Taoist monastery to reside on it. At some point the name will come to me.

I think we should plan a GALA and have all the guests singing and dancing in one huge ballroom or magnificent outdoors space as a follow up to our individual gatherings.

ahwwww alliemae I'm sorry - I can just imagine the excitement and anticipation dashed and then knowing you could have tagged onto the D.C. trip but it was too late - hope you are treating yourself with a show or small day trip that is a bit of fun.

Ginger I peeked at the photos and there you were in several of them - I bet you had a great time.

EmmaBarb did you get to see the recent PBS show on Marie Antoinette? I found this link that seems very believable - they suggest Louis' problem was taken care of by minor surgery rather than the story given on the PBS channel that a conversation between Louis and the older brother of Maria Antoinette. History of Royalty - Marie Antoinette

Interesting that both you and YiliLin have chops - I've seen photos but never a real one. YiliLin, you really know all these words associated with Aerology - wow - I am impressed - how do you know what is ascending in your chart or is that something you find out when you have a reading?

All I know is I am a January Aquarius - My eldest grandson is an Aquarius also, however he is a February Aquarian. I need to look and see if any of the Bio information on my guests includes the month they were born - You hit it big time knowing the astrological signs of your guests - have you found their signs affect how they would interact with each other and if they would be able to influence Condi Rice?

Winsum didn't you say you moved to your current location to help with your finances - sounds like a big choice - making it in a conservative environment or having bill collectors at your door where the neighbors share your attitudes about life - I find that a problem here as well - Austin is one of the only blue counties in a red state. The only other blue counties are on the border where the population is 80% and better Mexican American. Of course with UT's main and original campus here Austin has always been considered a hot bed of liberal ideas - ah so - but it is not easy on the pocket book to live here any longer.

Anna YES, I can see you and Carl Sagan chatting - great selection - I have a few tasks I must do for clients and then I plan on grouping in a chart each of our guests and where the gathering will take place - and so you will have poets and a scientist - what a mix - that should be a 'soulful' conversation if ever there was one.

Talk about soulful - did y'all see Dreams of Sparrows last night on PBS - an Iraqi and American filmmakers collaborate showing everyday life in Iraq - I was taken with the segment where they interviewed and showed the work of the two artists and then switched to a room full of writers who were mostly poets. The anger and rage especially over Fallugah -

From the perspective on that documentary our downfall, among the many horrors of blindly killing and humiliating Iraqis, was what we did in Fallugah - the death and destruction to innocent folks - wow - and yet, the movie did a super fair job of showing in a positive light all side - Iraqis that were pleased the Americans freed them from Saddam and others who think Saddam's return is their only salvation - as well as, both the simple thinking of our soldiers doing a job to those who feel they should be flattening the country. I was riveted to the TV for the hour and half. Had a cup of tea in my hand that actually went cold as I held it in mid air not drinking as if hypnotized by this show.

Hats I hope you have caught up a bit - there is such a variety guests that this is almost an education of bits and pieces of current affairs and history.

Be back later after I take care of a few things...

EmmaBarb, I agree and am looking forward to new people coming in, Make new friends, keep the old, one is silver the other gold, so true. Thanks for the welcome back.

Thank you Alliemae, You were missed.

Barbara, I wonder who that gal was that stole my name, she was so skinny

.I did have a great time.

Any one know what foods to eat to gain weight without sugar?

rolls, crousants the buttery ones fats as in cheese. . .cream in everything for sauces as well as coffee. anyhow fat and breads in any combination and nuts by the handful while you read. . .hypoglycemic here. shouldn't have sugar either and there is simple sugar in fruit so no fruit. but cheese is almost all fat. have fun. I would.

winsum, Oh Goody all the things I love but must eat the fruit for the bowels but I love fruit also. Thanks I will buy some real cream for my coffee may even put it on my oatmeal and will eat lots of fine nuts. I have made my list including cheese, yippee.

I just searched .hypoglycemic and it said the doctors won't treat it. When in the hosipital was told that I was a borderline diabetis they did not prescribe any meds but my doctor was about to as he mention diabetis but I told him that I would think about it and let him know next appointment well on my way home picked up a sugar monitor and do not have diabeatis but I do watch it closely.

Barbara I will stick to the subject of whose comming to dinner but this post just might save my life as I am too thin.

Barbara St. Aubrey ~ no I didn't see the PBS show on Marie Antoinette, wish I had (maybe they'll air it again). I am reading an article on the young Queen in the November '06 issue of "Smithsonian" magazine. It's very enlightening. I'd never heard of that problem Louis had before...apparently it was fixed with minor surgery. It was 7-years before he and Marie consummated their marriage. The article said she was 37 when she was killed. I have the feeling she was a victim of circumstances. That looks like a good link, will check it out.

This was my first look at a real chop when I received the gift. I used to think the writings were done with a pen or small brush rather than a block and ink pad. There is an interesting history of these blocks and earning the right to use them...but that's a long story.

Ginger wright ~ Let's see...I think you had a stroke, is that right ? I wouldn't be in any big hurry to put on weight, but those Insure drinks have lots of nutrients and stuff good for you but also lots of calories. Chocolate and oatmeal raisin cookies are my favorite
Emma

Ginger - we may have diversed - but have we - we are planning meals that will encourage conversations to linger while keeping tummies from filling with gas or spiking the sugar levels of our guests - so I think you are right on -

Now Ben Franklin doesn't need any fattening up and Bill Clinton has done quite a job of slimming down after his heart surgery - Marie Antoinette looked like she put on a few pounds after the birth of her children and Louis always had a "healthy" weight - there were some skinnies like Condi Rice, Jane Austen and Princess Diana -

Seems to me putting on some weight will not happen overnight and staying away from sweets and carbs which turn to sugar is not bad once you start to enjoy meat and Veggies. High in calories is milk and cheese however if you are lactose intolerant then bloating is the name of cheese.

Personally I find if I just depend on oatmeal and fruit as a daily constitutional it is not enough and so I add a glass of Citrucel every night to my diet.

I did myself a huge favor this summer - had a difficult time last winter and spring and was slipping into depression. I was very lethargic and tired all the time - I spent the $32 a bottle and purchased 3 bottles of Goji & Mangosteen Juice - best thing I ever did for myself. Goji Juice ||Mangosteen benefits

You can get both juices in one - there are many who pooh pooh this as overkill on anti-oxidants but it was the shot that made a huge difference for me. You only drink a half a cup a day so a bottle lasts a week and the third bottle I mixed my half a cup with grape juice and added some Aloe Vera - it was a nice afternoon break just as our temps were steadily in the 100s. I built this great garden of three separate beds this summer - so between the juice and finally having some energy to do something other than sit I was on top again by summer's end.

I am going to try to send a photo of my front yard with one of my new beds by adding it as an attachment - I have no idea if it will work or not.

ohhh it worked - let me get one more photo that shows another beds on the other side of the front of the house...you can just barely see the front bed near the curb - that curb side bed has one of my most favorite agave in it.

All three beds have only deer resistant plants - even the butterfly garden is all deer resistant - there is one plant in the curb side garden that they like and so, where you see the tall portable fences, they help to keep them from chewing things up every night.

I love watching the deer so I do not want to fence them out - they have the whole backyard with only bushes planted and lots of trees - I even have a pile of brush for them to hide behind and hide the fawns when they are less than 2 months old. I also keep a small tank of water for them after I saw them drinking from the AC water hose but I do not feed them as I did years ago. I learned that was making them too dependent. Just finished rutting season - we have 3 bucks now - so it looks like we will have a bevy of fawns next May.

Host	Guests	Place	Link
kiwi lady	Emmeline Pankhurst Nelson Mandela Jane Austen President Wilson	New Zealand	Menu Family Relationship Talking Points
YiliLin	Clinton, Rice, Carter Dali Lama,	Front porch Corolla NC coffee at Southern Bean	Menu
Ginger	President Roosevelt President Bush, President Carter Princes Diana	Ginger's House Y'all come!	Menu & Talking Points
Robby	Jesus Christ Moses Mohammed the prophet Buddha	~	Talking Points
Winsum	Colin Powell -- Colin Powell and P. J. O'Rourke Bob Woodward -- Newsweek excerpt: State of Denial Hillary Clinton Condi Rice	Winsum's Home in Orange County, California	Talking points Conversation flow
Annie3	Ernest Hemingway -- Timeless Hemingway ~ il faut d'abord durer Mariel Hemingway -- Her Films -- Memoir Audrey Hepburn -- Audrey Hepburn - L'Ange des Enfants George McGovern -- From Vietnam to Iraq:	~	Talking Points
EmmaBarb	Albert Schweitzer: -- Albert Schweitzer Music Award Claude Monet -- Paintings of Claude Monet Sir Winston Churchill -- His Paintings -- Author, Orator, Artist Marie Antoinette, Queen of France.	Frank Lloyd Wright's Fallingwater	Menu
Éloïse	Marilyn Monroe Claude Monet ~ Giverny Dr. Albert Schweitzer: Frank Lloyd Wright: Nobel Prize 1953 Sir Winston Churchill	Montreux, Switzerland	Conversation dynamics Talking points
safta2	David Ben Gurion Ella Fitzgerald Camus -- Review The Plague	~	~
Jeanne	My great grandparents on my fathers side. PEARL BUCK Queen Elizabeth 2nd President Clinton	~	Talking points
Jean/mabel1015j	Susan B. Anthony -- Susan B Anthony Quotes Jane Addams - Addams, Nobel Peace Bill Clinton Madeline Albright	~	Reason for Conversation
Alliemae	Louisa May Alcott Eleanor Roosevelt -- Eleanor Roosevelt My Mom Mary, 1st generation Italian-American, Humanitarian Award, 1966 - plaque at Chapel of the Four Chaplains Temple U. Ronnie Gilbert	Lincolnville, Maine. August 15, Blackberry season	Menu - Setting Aunt Hilda, Cook Beach Entertainment: President Clinton and Benjamin Franklin.
Hats	Maya Angelou. -- Poems of Maya Angelou Harper Lee -- Guide: To Kill a Mockingbird Nancy Pearl Koffi Annan	~	decision for sit down...
Happy Bill	Will Rogers President Reagan President Mikhail Gorbachev Margaret Thatcher	~	Talking Points Alternates: Mary Baker Eddy Nobel 1979 Mother Teresa
Barbara St.Aubrey	Wang Fu-zi -- Men's clothes, Ming Dynasty Great-Grandmother Catherine Weiland St. John of the Cross -- Online: Dark Night of the Soul Dag Hammarskjöld -- Poem from "Markings"	Relais & Châteaux Le Cagnard, Cote d Azur,France Late September	Talking Points Chinese, Spanish, Swedish, German foods
Annafair	Ted Kooser, poet -- Poet Laureate Ted Kooser Carl Sagan, Scientist Elizabeth Barrett Browning	Nags Head	Menu & Aunt Nora, Chef
John	Jesus Muhammed Buddha Confucius	Screen-in Porch Chattanooga Tenn.	Question: Is there a God? Menu: whatever their dietary restrictions allow
John	Jimmy Carter Desmond Tutu Hugo Chavez Kim Jung Il	Catfish dinner Overlooking the Tennessee River	Talking points Cat Fish & Hush Puppies
MaryZ	Lydia - My Mother [nickname Pink] William Bradford -- Mayflower Thurgood Marshall John Adams	~	Reporter for the event, Uncle Harry Quin, newspaper editor. Talking point
Eleanor	St. Augustine of Hippo [with links] - Augustinus; Doctor of Grace Sigmund Freud - "The Interpretation of Dreams" 1900 Thomas Merton - Thomas Merton Quotes - Near the end of his life Paddy Chayefsky - Credits 1961 "Gideon"	~	Talking Points

PLEASE - HELP - if there is any information missing or if I have missed someone PLEASE let me know - where the ~ is in a column it is because I do not have the information - I tried to comb the posts but it got to be quite a project - so please let me know any bits and pieces that are missing...

MaryZ I cannot find where you listed your choices - there is a post with your husband's choices that we did not include at your request but somehow in the accumulated posts I am missing your choices - PLEASE repost them for me...

EmmaBarb, Yes I had a stroke but was losing weight before that, From 190 down to 135 today and am just holding my own for now but must gain.

Barbara, You are so kind not to scold me thanks and thanks for your information on weight, Your house and yard is beautiful.

Shoot Ginger I wonder how many of the guest listed have had reason to dicker with their diet - we are not magazine models with perfect systems - hehehehe maybe we should have listed that as a given in our fantasy day dreaming

P.S. I gotta brag - just one more photo - this to me is one of the beautiful agave - we are on the tail end of the zone where this will do well through the winter and the curb garden is where the north wind blows coldest when we have a blue norther - and so I will have to come up with some system to protect it if the temps ever dip below freezing...

I book marked it and perhaps should copy since our bookmarks do change over time. I do want to look in on other peoples guests. in a way this is a party for all of us. . . .claire

Winsum there will be a link to that post in the heading - I just need to have folks fill me in on the empty spots and for some reason I cannot find MaryZ's post telling us who are her guests - If you see it please let me know - once it has a bit more filled in then I will link it...

It will only be in the heading for as long as this heading is in place - our conversation ends the end of the month and then the heading could be up for another week or more according to how much time the new discussion leader needs to get their heading prepared, reviewed and uploaded.

Interesting we have Clinton a part of 4 gatherings and Carter, Rice, Churchill, Monet and Schweitzer a part of 2 gatherings each...

Barbara St.Aubrey ~ I could only get about half of your three garden photos

-- this computer memory is just too small for the big stuff plus I'm still using dial-up.

Wow ! Your chart is terrific. I can appreciate all the work that went into that. I'm glad you'll be putting a link in the heading.
My menu was to start with several red and white wines, an assortment of cheese (one of which is Brie), french bread, and grapes (to get everyone in a relaxed mood). Then a nice mixed field green salad with choice of homemade dressings. Grilled salmon, chicken or beef (I'll have the salmon on my salad). Baked sweet potatoes with cinnamon/sugar and butter topping. Some nice fresh asparagus with light garlic sauce. An assortment of desserts...cheesecake with real rapsberry sauce, chocolate mouse layered cake, Zabaglione with fresh rapsberries, blackberries, and strawberries.
I hope Monsieur Monet will approve of the menu.
The attire is casual.

Ginger wright ~ I meant to say Ensure (not Insure) sorry about that. What does your doctor say about you wanting to gain weight ?

This has been so much fun !

Mary Z - 01:44pm Oct 21, 2006 PT (#248 of 335)

I still haven't come up with just four. I'd like to have my parents (my father died at 46 [I was 13], my mother at 75) and perhaps grandparents to learn more about their childhood and early family history.

I like the idea of having Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin or John Adams along with Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter or Thurgood Marshall to get some idea about how our country is different from or the same as what was envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

EmmaBarb, we do have the same taste in people and food I am happy about that.

I like Winston Churchill because of his rhetoric and his deep penetrating, convincing voice. I heard him speak on the radio during WW11. What a man, I think he inspired the British to hang on and never get discouraged by the constant bombing of London, Paris never sustained that, but they had the German occupation instead. I think Roosevelt and him really hit it off together. Both were extraordinary men in my view.

Barbara you have Claude Money instead of Monet in my guest list.

hehehehehahahahah..oooohhhhh a slip of the finger while typing but it seemed so funny to me 'Money' maybe we can say it like Hyacinth Bucket says Bouquet Mo-ney - OK it is fixed - thanks my dear... hahaha

Barbara, mind you Monet is pronounced Money in France, so it's easy to write money, I am reading "The Depth of Glory" by Irving Stone these days about the Impressionist painters.

I think Marilyn Munroe was an intelligent woman not just a dumb blonde bombshell and she would be an asset around a dining room table. I always thought she 'acted' her sex image for box office purposes more than she actually perceived herself to be one. Am I the only one who thinks this way?

Marie Antoinette

Barbara- one knows a rising sign by a series of math functions that relate the exact time of your birth to the latitude and longitude of your place of birth- this gives a relationship to that spot and 'the heavens' at the time of birth.

some schools of astrology not only trace the time back to moment of conception but use that as a rising sign- i find it more interesting when a 'birth chart' gives hint to what was going on when one is born and use that at the chart or course one can embark upon.

although charts can be 'predictive' i prefer to work with people to see the life path as a tool- know where strengths and weaknesses are, but also get a sense of why we keep repeating lessons, some never learned in this lifetime. the chart and transits is also a wonderful way to help people be patient. sometimes there are energies that prevent us from moving forward and we think the 'everything' is stalled, a chart helps us see where that difficulty is and gives a sense of when and/or how to create a new circumstance.

also different astrologers use different 'house systems' I prefer Placidus to Equal House and others.

One can estimate a time of birth and still do a life reading, however, I do not like to do that, the moment in time is very important to understand where an energy plays out (houses)- if ever I work with someone who does not know time of birth, I tell them I will talk about planetary and sign energies and how they are relating (angles) but I avoid even suggesting the house- or area of life where the energy dominates.

hmm I wonder the Dali Lama's take on astrology now there's another question for my group, mothers and astrology- and I think we'll gather on the front porch in Corolla- and maybe meetup with that Nags Head group at Southern Bean for coffee the next morning.

and longetude and lattitude. I seem to remember it's related to time at Greenich or universal time. for example my 5:15 was on the birth certificate in chicago. does that have to be related to UNIVERSAL time or the time at greenich to be appropriate. it does give me a rising sign in opposition to my sun and everything else and doesn't fit, so it may not be right. sun is 22.5 picses. a virgo rising sign isn't like me at all. just wondering about the concept itself. I gave my books away a long time ago except for the ephemerout which goes to 2000.

just the planetary positions and their relationships are complicated enough and do tell a rather complete story, at least for me and the friend whose chart I did yesterday only on that basis. amazing. sometimes we're forced to give credence to something we doubt. I took it on simply to SEE if there was anything in it and the further away from the planetary application we get the less I see as a connection in my own case over a long lifetime 78years.

it's being made into a science and scientists love to doodle with their information. Dawkins quoted someone as saying the man who knows quantum mechanics doesn't know quantum mechanics. that's how I feel with the complications of astrology. I'm more inclined to consider blood lines too. have a story about that. . . . claire

will have their birth dates on line so that up to the point of birth time and place it might be interesting to place their planets and let those associations work for us to interpret whatever else we know about them. . . . claire

Winsum thanks for making a search for MaryZ's guest list - I feel a bit better now that I just did not miss it - I found the same post you did where she was considering from a small group of possibilities -

I guess like everything else YiliLin you have to have someone who is good at reading astrology to find those blocks in your life - that is new information that I did not know astrology could uncover.

Terrific Marie Antoinette site Éloïse - and Yes, I too think Marilyn knew which side her bread was buttered on but she could not have been married for eight years to Arthur Miller without having some brains. He may have liked her as a toy bride but that would have become old fast.

EmmaBarb I can't get the idea of your Grilled salmon on a bed or mixed greens out of my mind - with a little Rouille sauce - ah ah ah Laissez le bon temps roulet!

I would just love to be a shadow to the gathering Hats has arranged - all the voices are that soft bumble bee sound - lovely with an inflection and strength - I can almost hear Maya Angelou conversing with Koffi Annan - of the group I do not Nancy Pearl.

Hats if you see this post - would you fill me in - is Nancy Pearl ever seen on TV?

Interesting to me as I look over the groups - some seem lively to me and others quiet and thoughtful while still others more involved deep conversations.

To me one of the animated conversations would be Jean's group of Susan B. Anthony, Jane Addams, Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright - they are all talkers with strong opinions and yet in synch with each other. Wouldn't Susan B. Anthony be delighted to learn her hard work a hundred years later allowed a women to be the Secratery of State. Wow!

Ok the link is in the heading to the chart - the chart can be continually updated and we can add more gatherings if someone hadn't shared yet their group.

Thanks, Claire for posting mine.

John's choices were 1) Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha, and Confucius - with the question being Is there a God? The location would be our screened-in porch in Chattanooga, and the menu being whatever their dietary restrictions would allow.

2) Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, Hugo Chavez, and Kim Jung Il; in Chattanooga; menu of fried catfish, hush puppies, cole slaw, and "sweet tea". The question would be "How do we get out of this mess?" The rules would be that nobody can shout, and nobody leaves until we get some decent suggestions.

Mary should we take the first four from your list?

Either one would be fine, Barbara. That was the first one that he picked - and very quickly, too.

John's gathering in Chattanooga:
Jimmy Carter
Desmond Tutu
Hugo Chavez
Kim Jung Il

Jesus
Muhammed
Buddha
Confucius

Chattanooga Tenn.

Heheheh Mary on your list - not John's list but yours - which four should we use...?

Sorry, Barbara. Put on there my mother, Pink (her nickname - her name was Lydia), my ancestor William Bradford (from the Mayflower), Thurgood Marshall, and John Adams. Just for fun, I'd like to sneak in one more - my uncle, Harry Quin, who was a newspaper editor. Sorry - that just came to me. He'd be fun to have just to get a reporter's take on the whole event.

Great - we will sneak Uncle Quin in as a reporter to the event...

William Bradford -- Mayflower
Thurgood Marshall
John Adams

ok I will upload onto the chart your and John's gatherings tonight - need to stop and get a few things taken care of...

Thanks Mary - it was sure bugging me that I thought I missed your post - yep, I like everything in its place - free with thoughts and ideas - free with making plans however, things and papers and commitments they all have to have their place - a mix of a creative mind that needs order to operate within.

The order is the string that holds me to the ground that I worked at adopting when I was a young mom. Like all behavior we adopt, we work hard at it since it is not part of our basic nature - ah so...hehehe my philosophic statement of the day...

Éloïse De Pelteau ~ it's nice.
Thanks for the Marie Antionette website.

I would introduce my guests to each other by asking about their art and/or music and who may have influenced them or not.

I understand Sir Winston did not like Picasso...and neither do I. Another thing, Winston Churchill reminds me so much of my maternal grandpap who was born in England. He was a preacher in the Evangelical Church. I stayed with him and grandmam 'til near 6-yrs of age. He didn't smoke cigars though so there will be no smoking at my dinner party...thank you.

We had a Winston Churchill at one of our club meetings a few years ago. He did a really fantastic job of impersonating him. His wife (also a friend of mine) was secretary of the Winston Churchill Organization in D.C./MD for a long time. She may still be, I haven't checked.

YiLiLin ~ I do not know my time of birth. My mom told me she called a friend who had a car and they drove her to the Mercy Hospital and that she barely made it in time for my birth. I made a point to write the exact time of birth for both of my sons. Everytime they have a birthday I remind them when that time was.

Barbara St. Aubrey ~ oh please do tell me what Rouille sauce is ?

Emma

Here you go EmmaBarb

Rouille sauce

Ginger wright ~ The rouille sauce sounds really good. I would make it and then (as in that recipe with Grilled Lobster) spoon some of the rouille sauce on top of the Salmon before putting it on the grill. Maybe even add fresh lemon juice and olive oil to some saved rouille sauce to dress the mixed field greens before adding the grilled salmon. Yummmmm !

That last Marie Antoinette website lead me to her close friend and portraitist Vigée-Lebrun.

Emma

Ginger thanks for finding the recipe - they are suggesting something a bit more complicated than how I fix it - the sauce is really just a reddish mayonnaise with garlic, peppers and a tiny bit of saffron

I do the quicky version - boil a whole garlic in some milk and then bake in some olive oil - only use a couple of the garlic cloves - the rest I will eat right then and there - mash the couple of raosted cloves of garlic with a bit of the olive oil - chop up really fine about 3 tablespoons of roasted red bell pepper. - I buy at Whole Foods roasted and skinned red pepper - they are in a container soaked in olive oil - add some French mustard - a tiny pinch of a saffron thread that was steeped in about a tablespoon of warm water - mix the whole mess in about a cup of mayonnaise unless you want to make some mayonnaise in the blender with an egg yolk, a speck of vinegar or lemon and drizzle in oil - half and half grapeseed and olive oil works best blending in the above ingredients after the sauce can stand on its own, When you blend in the above there is no shape left to the bits of pepper and garlic. I prefer a bit of shape although, tiny tiny so I mash and add. Salt and Pepper to taste. I like a larger cracked pepper again for the rustic look. Lasts in the frig for at least 2 weeks up to 4 weeks.

Folks around here will use it on fish, hamburger on a bun, strip steaks on the barbecue that we will eat in a roll or on a hamburger bun. It is very popular with Cajun and Creole foods. It is really just another all purpose mayonnaise type sauce that has a bit of flavor.

ah EmmaBarb you found Ginger's recipe - reads like you should have fun if you like cooking - so many ways to use the sauce once you get started...

I like it on crabcakes served over a bed of mixed greens - I never have known of it fixed with a fish stock base and that is what the recipe seems to be suggesting - need to try that one day - I imagine the sauce would be looser - would that be nice as a dipping sauce for boiled shrimp - although rather than saffron I would prefer a bit of horseradish or even a pesto slurred in.

What a lovely - Elisabeth Vigée-LeBrun -

Barbara St. Aubrey ~ the way you make the sauce is probably the recipe I'd be likely to use. I may even leave out the saffron...it's so expensive here and you can't just buy a tiny pinch. Edit: Oh I forgot, this is a fantasy dinner so I can afford it (ha).

hehehe - although I found the spice company - forget their name but they are all over - they sell just a tiny strand of Saffron in a jar - something spice islands - nice looking beige label with brown lettering - I get it and it lasts for years but I use it for Lucia buns for December 12 the feast of St. Lucy and I use it for a Russian bread I bake at Easter time - you just need the tiniest speck and so my saffron I have for I bet 10 years.

no way I'd cook for my guests. they are probably all watching their weight and I'd end up eating it all. Had a shrimp salad tonight unmpteen hours ago and it's still repeating.

serving beano along with barbeques beans and small ribs would be lovely only as I said. . . almost all good things are fattening. sheesh. claire

Healthy food can be tasty Winsome. You just have to get used to tasting real food again without all the packet sauce additives and butter etc. Try finding a healthy cookbook which uses fresh herbs etc to add to the flavours. You might just get a surprise at how good healthy food can taste.

Carolyn

When I read up on one of my guests Jane Austen ( or listened in my case!) I realised how much she modelled situations and characters on her own life experience. Her brother I am sure was modelled on Mr Knightly. She was a great observer of life. I wonder what she would go back and write after her dinner at my house after she had observed the other guests.

Carolyn

Yesterday the card players serverd ham salad in pita bread with baked potatoe chips and homade apple pie topped with ice cream it was yummy so have it on my grocery list except for the homade apple pie

Carolyn how you doing with the fire in your area? Will you have to evacuate?

Ginger as far as I know we have no fires. The only forest we have near me is the rainforest and due to its very nature we have not had a bad fire in there as long as I can remember. Are you confusing me with Australia. I live in NZ. They do guard the rainforest ferociously and there are all sorts of regulations in place to care for it. There are these little meters everywhere showing the fire risk at all times of the year in the forest. Also fire bans are in place from October to March.

Carolyn

Carolyn yes I did get mixed about where you live please forgive me.

One of the things I like best about John's list- they're all heading to Chatt. an interesting venue for these folk!

YiLiLin, have you been here to visit? We love it when folks drop in.

...something I've learned and am still working on rather later in life...and since becoming a member of SeniorNet I appreciate it even moreso. The rewards are just so worth the time and effort...

Alliemae

as for healthy eating etc. I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to seasoning things I don't use the packets just stuff from my huge collection of spices and herbs and different every time. of course the cook must taste so that gets to be part of it and I end up eating a huge salad that would have served three or four. not fattening, well consider the olive oil and roasted seseme oil the cheeses along witht he shrimp and nuts and the amount plus some of those herbs.

I have a dozen cookbooks that I've used for reference but can't remember the last time I needed to do that. A life time )age 78 ) of cooking and a creative bent lead me astray. allimae would do well gaining weight here at my house if her stomach will stretch to hold the amounts.

I avoid salt and sugar too. I think it's the amounts that are part of the trouble and every now and then a binge as on six to eight large croussants from costco the other day. theirs are buttery and the best. I even like them frozen.

caroline I know all about healthy foods. used to keep calorie count and measure everything a real drag but I remember what is and isn't fattening although I don't do that anymore.And I know what is and isn't healthy interms of nutrition, Adele Davis way back in the fifties and sixties charts on the kitchen cabinets, inside of course.

something alliemae can resort to in the opposite direction if she wants to go that route.

I'm slightly bugged to be lectured on this since it's one of my major ISSUES. . . . and not at all surprised. real food is delicious and fattening.

claire

Oh it is so hard isn't it to do what we know is good for us - I know for me it is a crazy form of rebellion - I put myself out over the years to eat the "right" thing, say the "right" thing, do the "right" thing in so many areas of my life and I really never saw any return for it - things just did not turn out as I wanted regardless I followed all the rules and read up on all the good things to do and so I have become my own worst enemy, like the little girl who could say 'so there'...

I must say though having more energy is worth doing what I did last summer for myself however, I should be walking now because all this good energy is slipping away and where I lost 10 lbs. 2 slipped back on. I know when I sit I have a cup of tea and who ever heard of having a cup of tea without a couple of cookies. ah so...

The walking is the same thing - I like walking - I have found a whole group of neat places to walk and everyday something seems more important than going for that walk. hmmmmm maybe instead of all these books on procrastination that I have been reading again I should re-read the books of my guests. Hmmm that could even be a challenge to mentally read "Dark Night..." as if Juan de la Cruz was talking about stepping forth into the world of caring for myself rather than understanding my journey to spiritual fulfillment - and Dag was a big hiker who took off hiking the length of Sweden when things at the UN were quiet after another big blow up - hmmmm need to re-read 'Markings'

Ooohhh thanks for sharing your struggle Winsum you have given me some ideas that I will follow up on because reading is my lifeblood.

Alliemae I know - some of us really have to struggle to keep order as a priority - I am so visual and so my whole thing came to be that I like to see things looking pretty. It is true, I prefer doing things looking pretty, especially when my family was young - not chintzy pretty - but as we use the word here, meaning anything that is pulled together and being shown at its best in this part of the country we call it pretty.

I must say if there is any stress that is the first way I can tell things are not right with me - all of a sudden the breakfast room table looks like the parking garage for all the mail along with anything that I accumulated in my vehicle. And my sofa is piled high with catalogues and books, books. books, all started, with pens, pencils, torn envelopes, you name it holding a place and marking the important pages. - Of course the laundry is in piles and when I look there is a lot of disorganization around me. Then I know - better look deep and figure out what is going on - I have let everything slide into chaos.

Hehehehe I guess this is true confession day - remember the magazine "True Confession" there was another magazine at the time and they were filled with gossip about the stars before that paper at the check out counter came into being, followed by tons of gossip even on TV about various personalities.

MaryZ - I went through Chattanooga once a few years ago - tried to stop downtown to eat but there was no easy parking so after driving back and forth across a few bridges [yep, I was turned around lost] and filling up [where they straightened me out] I was on my way north a bit and over the old Appalachian Highway - Chattanooga did seem nice - The view of the mountains loomed large - do you ever hike those mountains?

Ginger you are one up on me - I still have not tasted pita bread - there is a Greek grocery and restaurant south of town that sells pita bread and I notice some of the fast food places feature a sandwich on pita bread. I have a feeling if the pita bread in the fast food places have the same quality of taste as their hamburger buns the bread must be a disaster. Oh if they just did something about the buns that attach themselves to the roof of your mouth and take up residence, I may have purchased more than a couple of hamburgers from them in all these years.

I must say when Wendy's came out with those salads I tried them and have continued to go back for more - then when McDonalds added salad I had a choice. But for a hamburger our local Wally's who only owns the one take out is the 'only' place I will go for a hamburger.

Now see YiliLin we could have you set up an Astrology shop around here and I bet all our foibles could be uncovered and what area of our lives we could give more attention to so that we could get past some of the downside of our habits.

That is why I like some of the thinking of Wang - I can look at myself now not as a mix of good and bad but as a force of nature and like nature there are rain storms and tornadoes, new growth and the dying of autumn, the cold and the warm - I just like to minimize my hurricanes so they do not damage other areas of my life. hmmm maybe I need emotional flood insurance hehehehehe

hahahaaa you never saw the likes - I have a good size backyard with a three stands of trees - some nuisance china berries - and Arizona Ash that should have been cut down long ago, the rest are all live oak and a huge Bay laurel - there is also a row of Nandina surrounding the old Kentucky fence on an angle nearer the house that is an island of green -

Hated to see the black, split rail fence being torn down when a highway was going through a horse farm in Lexington so I brought it with me - all slave made and it isn't that but to me anything handmade is so special - the whole of a person is in what is handmade - I get teary eyed when I touch or think of anything that is handmade and knowing that for some the only memorial to their lives is that split rail wooden fence that shows every adze mark made me feel I had to save a piece of it.

Well anyhow the reason for the post - there are 5 deer back there racing in circles - cutting each other off - full body running - some with tails up - two are the fawns from this summer who have finally lost their spots. They all have their darker coat on - this race is silent and if I had not looked out I would not have ever known - but speed and twisting bodies - basketball stars should be so lucky to be able to do what they can do while playing tag in my back yard...

Claire, I have more than enough weight and, in fact, would willingly share some with anyone interested...I was discussing my problem with 'orderliness'.

I do know about Adelle Davis, however and for years she was my health 'guru'. I had had hepatitis during the 70's when Weight Watchers was touting fish, fish, fish and I, being a NewEnglander, ate clams, clams, clams--raw, raw, raw! Anyway, after about 18 days in hospital my doctor congratulated me for 'a slight improvement in my blood tests'. So I put on my white rain coat as the guests were leaving after evening visiting hours and left with the masses. I got into a taxi as yellow as myself and off to home I went.

Within just three weeks of using Adele Davis' diet for liver conditions I walked about a mile to my doctor's office and he was astounded at my level of wellness!

So...even though I am way overweight, I am still fairly healthy...but now I'm working on weight-loss again a la Adelle and also Gaylord Hauser as I get my strength to get out of my power chair and resume my walking.

Sorry for the personal expose but I find I still jump right back up on a 'soapbox' the minute I hear Adelle Davis' name... alliemae

I have given up everything else, I refuse to give up food !

Barbara, I don't hike anywhere

, but I do love to look at the mountains. When we first moved here, I got lost a lot, and ALWAYS wound up on the wrong side of a bridge. Of course, that's what happens in a river town. Fortunately, Chattanooga is small enough, that you can't get REAL bad lost.

What food we do or don't serve shouldn't make any difference. After all, it's VIRTUAL food, and thus has no calories, saturated fat, or other evils. This is the only place where one size really does fit all.

who said she had to gain weight. sorry about that. join MY club. except that heart failure keeps me from walking much and that is the key for me. walking helps me lose weight and used to.

as for organization I don't have the evergy to follow through well enough so pick one part of one tast now and then that I know I can do with the energy Ihave and let myself feel good about THAT. the rest is still out there waiting for another HIGH moment. claire

the History Channel is doing a "story" (looks like a reenactment) of the Mayflower voyage on Nov 19th, just saw the ad today.....

Is that the Adele Davis who wrote "The Honeycomb?" Her autobiography. I read that about 25 yrs ago........

Barbara, it looks like you have good order and have put in a lot of work on your yard......what a pleasure it must be to be able to watch the deer..........jean

Thanks, Jean - I'll try to watch that.

For awhile they had full size replica's of the three ships, Nina, Pinta and the Santa Maria in Corpus - one was damaged in a hurricane and another I think sailed back to England - all to say it is just amazing that these wooden ships sailed into unknown waters as vast as the Atlantic so that the idea of a everyday folks taking off in a ship not much larger to permanently settle this new wilderness is absolutely astonishing.

Have you been watching the sea story on PBS Masterpiece Theatre - the story is later in history but still a wooden ship - somehow the story has taken over and the ship is like one big stage rather than showing the smallness of the ship in the vast ocean.

Maybe that is really the way folks handled these crossings - we think of them as awe inspiring daring adventures where as the folks at the time may have depended upon each other and put all their faith in providence and the captain. I must say the captain of the ship in the story seems so young. He sure does not illicit any faith in me - seems like he is more manipulative than a just leader of men... I guess this week's episode will give us more to discover the character of the man in this story.

After seeing the face of Bradford on the statue pictured in the link to his Bio - if it was a true depiction of the man he had the face and bearing that looked like a leader - nice looking man...

I wonder what this Captain Jones was like - apparently older, and interesting - did you read that in the link that one of the 'second-in-command,' Clarke, was a prisoner in Havana and Madrid for 5 years after having been captured in Virginia by the Spanish. Appears the Mayflower had some seasoned leaders - I wonder if the pilgrims knew and that was why the contacted Jones to take them to the new world...? Was it called America at that time or just the new world - does anyone know...?

There is a new book out called "Mayflower" by Nathan Philbrick. I had it out from the library, but it was only a 7-day book. My current reading span is brief (this happens from time to time - and I hate it!), so I didn't get much read. But it is interesting, and I did learn a little bit about Bradford.

A scale replica of the Nina has been docked at our Riverfront during October. We didn't get down to see her, but the universal comment was how amazing it was that folks actually crossed the Atlantic on such a small boat.

I don't think so, mabel, I think that was Adela Rogers St. Johns.

Adelle Davis the nutritionist has written mostly books about health and wellness via nutrition according to Google. The book of hers that I had was called "Let's Get Well."

Claire, are you sure we weren't twins separated at birth? Your housekeeping 'system' is so like mine. In fact, many times making myself a really nice meal takes AT LEAST three days: one day to shop for the ingredients (even if just chicken breast or steak, potato, and salad stuff), the second day to have the energy to cook and eat it, and...a day or more to get everything I used cleaned up!!

Ayup...my days, as yours, of boundless, endless energy seem to be just a sweet memory!

alliemae

Thanks for the 'heads up', mabel about the show. One of our ancestors, George Soule, came over on the Mayflower as a gentleman's servant and did quite well while he was here.

MaryZ, thanks for the book reco. It sounds like something I'd be very interested in reading!

Small world, isn't it!!

alliemae

alliemae what were a couple of the suggestions from the book that you followed and that work - do you still use her suggestions for your eating habits today?

There's an article in the current (November 2006) Smithsonian Magazine entitled Pilgrims' Progress about the Separatists and their departure on the Mayflower. It lists the following as some of the Mayflower descendants: Ulysses S Grant, James A. Garfield, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Orson Welles, Marilyn Monroe, Hugh Hefner, and George W. Bush. And now including Alliemae and me. Sounds like a bunch of scoundrels to me!!!!!

Marilyn Monroe!!! My word who would have guessed -

Of course, i remembered Adela R St J as soon as you mentioned it.....senior moment....jean

OK so we're revealing secrets- last night I watched damn if I can remember the name of the show (oops will the site host ban me?) anyway it was one of those MD shows on ABC not ER- anyway one vignette was a woman diagnosed with lung cancer- who'd not smoked, but did diet and 'do all the right thngs'...so she set about correcting that primarily in the food arena.

For the comments here, I think weighing indulgence against overall health effects is probably he best course. So overweight has less meaning than overall activity and engagement in life.

I relate to Traditional Chinese Medicine and the goal is balance. And an 'aha' moment, our conversations with our guests are part of that balance in addition to what we eat and where we choose together. The earth also has centers of balance that relate to each individual. Haven't you felt that?? Some places you've been seem to enliven you, others draw you down. For me the two best places are North Carolina and Maine.

YiLiLin, For me it will be Las Vegas and Phonix for this bowevil looking for a winter apt. for the months of Jan. and Feb. as this year cant't stand the cold as I am 73 and last Nov. had a stroke and will leave in Jan. or maybe sooner as it is cold where I live in Mich.

Been in Florida. and California and so that I don't think those two will be it.

I live in california. . .southern close to the coast because I can't find as good a climate for me anywhere else. days even now in the seventies and inland eighty but I'm two blocks from the beach. I'm 78 and what with arthritis and heart failure and a dozen other bad things this is still the best place for me. of course rents are very high if that's an issue. claire

EmmaBarb, I did not mean not to answer your question about what my doctor thinks of me wanting to gain weight but I have been with him for over thirty maybe forty years so he knows me well enough to know hey I will gain weight if I think it's best for me as this is my body

Winsum, If your talking to me rent is high in AZ and Vegas also they say it is because of Calif, rents but I'M not so sure about that as Vegas and Phonix is grow by leaps and bounds also so up goes the rent me thinks. You live in a beautiful state but it's not for me as far as I know as I have lived there in beautiful orange county, Ginger

my kids live on an island in bc and I thought about visiting in six month secments since I'm too old to be a legal resident but their summers get hotter and more humid than mind and their winders get much colder even though they are on THE SUNSHINE COAST. my other kid lives off the hudson in new york and you know that climate is really lousy. hot and humid in the summer and cold in the winter. deserts are very dry which may suit you. you'll find a good place sometimes altitude makes a difference. I've known people to move to denver colorado for that, but it's probably cold in the winter. and the the winter months in palm springs are full of people seeking just that. only the winter months and renting. it's fun to look. I had google shopping new york and bc for me.

seeya, claire

Winsum, I love Denver, lived there and in the mountians in Evergreen. Co. but there winter are worse than where I live in Mich. sooo that's out. I have lived in most of the United States at one time or another but not Phonix or Nevada so have been watching there weather alot since getting a bit of age on me

I am an egg eater, mostly because I'm not so crazy about meat and I can't get the fresh fish and seafood I was born near. When I had liver problems the doc said only 3 eggs a week, whereas Adelle Davis said 2-3 eggs a day! So I just kept on eating eggs the way I always had. It didn't hurt me, in fact, as I said before, I had to come home to eat Adelle's way before my tests and my health became normal.

Also, after gall bladder surgery my cholesterol went up to about 257 and the doc said NO EGGS. I didn't listen. In fact I continued to eat everything I used to eat but added apples1-3 per day and oatmeal once or twice a day. Within 3 months my cholesterol had dropped to slightly below 200 and within 6 months down to 170.

Her other health suggestion was to walk and walk and walk. I'm not doing that now and I think that's why I'm so out of condition. But little by little I hope to be able to walk further and further more frequently and we'll have to see...so that jury is still out.

Hope that answers the question. Adelle Davis believed that no food that was fresh and unprocessed and was eaten as grown could be unhealthy.

The one thing I've stopped using is the lecithin. It's bulky and I just take so many big pills with the calcium and fish oils, etc I personally get tired of taking supplements. Sometimes I wonder if it's not all big business and I'm continuing to 'gas up a car with 'premium' when I don't think this particular car has that much further to go and definitely no longer any need for speed and high performance for the rest of the ride!!

Alliemae

Claire, what island do your kids live on? My cousin lives on Lasqueti, and have for years. We've visited them a couple of times, and love the area. I heard that the winters are not too severe in that area because of the Humboldt current. Personally, I think we'll just stay where we are.

Alliemae a lot hype for the rich to get richer I think. I use the cheaper regular in my car but that's what I started it out on when it was new in 1985 but it still does not have many actual miles on it yet maybe about 50,000.

My doctor chuckled and said it would not hurt me when I told him that I eat two eggs a week so may start eating more. I also eat oatmeal for breakfast every day and think it works.

Mary, I'm sure glad the picture puzzle is solved Whew.

Me, too, Ginger. Thanks for the help.

I was looking at your saying about crayons living in the same box and the thought came to me Oh! if only us humans understood we to are so different but have to live in the same world what a better world we could have.

my kids live on Texada

they have a page since they are in the real estate business and son tom who is a journalist and communications person as well keeps a journal there which is interesting reading even if you don't plan to live there. it has a good sized populatin of retired people now. as for their page it's something like this

http://www.texadarealestate.com

edit: yep that's it

if you really are interested here is the page with the journal

tom's Texada journal

I used to read Adele Davis, Prevention Magazine, and Gary Null. I still listen to Gary on the car radio when I'm waiting for someone or something. I've never forgotten Adele Davis saying cottage cheese has plaster of paris in it. I'm an egg eater also but only about 4 a week and I eat very little white meat and no red meat but love fresh seafood.

Great web sites Winsum - thanks for sharing them - I cannot imagine living with a cold winter - I know we have high summer temps but I can handle heat far better than I could ever handle cold. I like the idea of living near mountains until I realize it gets cold and there is ice and snow to deal with - from what you are saying these Islands do not get cold although they are so far north - do they get lots of rain?

I had heard that eggs were supposed to be on our no no list and where I do not eat as many as y'all are suggesting I decided to forget the supposed advise and just eat - I am learning over and over my tummy goes out of whack everytime I eat more than one or two of anything -

I made some corn muffins the other night and mixed in some almond slices and walnut bits - Had I stopped at two that would have taken the edge of my wanting something cakey - but no I had to have another half and did I suffer today - I am also back to keeping jello in the frig - I read that it is alkaline - in order to help a balance since I do eat too many acid foods at least this is a snack I can reach for that is not going to add to my acid intake.

All medication is acid but I do not know if vitamins and herbs in capsules are acid. The biggest change for me came about when I finally gave up grabbing frozen meals - they are easy and coming in tired I had no desire to cook - stopping to eat someplace was getting too expensive - now I often end up just baking a potato partly in the microwave and than finish it up in the oven - I like to add a baked sweet potato - what I have not done is cook a full meal and then freeze it in serving size portions. Many of my friends say that is the way to go - it makes sense but I have not gone there yet.

Alliemae I know what you mean - it is the walking that makes the difference and so hard to get started - I am hoping that with the clocks changing back I will probably get up regardless of what the clock says and so my plan now is to just not think - get those tennies on my feet and get out the door - I can worry what direction after I am out the door. If I want to walk a particular trail I can make that decision after I am out the door even if it means coming back in to get the car. I just need to get out the door.

If I only walk for 15 minutes - that is all I need to start looking forward to walking again so that in the evening I can walk regardless that it is dark. It is just getting started -

My big bugaboo is water retention - I have learned for me what works -chump down one stalk of celery and it flushes out the water without any leg cramps - magic.

I found Adele Davis' books on Amazon's reduced price vendors - by adding the postage they are still cheaper than full price with no shipping charges. I think I will order one of her books - is Prevention Magazine her Magazine? I get it weekly by email - neat stuff. Now I have to look up to find out who Gary Null is - my oh my what we learn by just engaging in conversation.

Gary Null
Prevention Magazine has changed over the years, I don't subscribe anymore but pick one up now and then from something I see on the cover that interests me. Gary Null used to have regular articles in the magazine.

To be honest, I can't see why anyone in our American society would now give information that worked. It would be counterproductive. Look at all the money being made on nutritional and diatetic things, special diets, etc. It is self-perpetuating riches ONLY if no one ever truly loses weight and KEEPS IT OFF...Think about it...It's also happening with diseases. I just heard a news segment recently that the money allocated to Cancer research FOR A CURE would be better spent on treatments to SUSTAIN a person...how's that for self-perpetuating? I can see the positive point here and it is working well with AIDS, but it came as a shock to me.

When I see the women of Afghanistan or the Sudan, and Chad and Darfor in Africa living on their bean meal and lentils and bread I wonder what our problem is over here? But dwelling too long on that has, for me at least, only kept me running for pepsi, potato chips and chocolate...kind of like that actress Sally Something (was Archie Bunker's daughter on a tv show) who cries and cries on tv for 'poor starving kids' and yet, every year she has gotten heavier and heavier. I wish I knew the answer--I'd definitely apply it to myself.

Alliemae

Alliemae I am convinced it is because most of our food is not pure food and the distance from grower to kitchen table is time that fresh food looses most of the good - I was shocked this summer to see even Whole Foods succumbing to marketing - we all know that carrots keep more of what is good when the tops are kept on till the carrot is used. And there was Whole Foods, the bastion of wholesome eating with pyramids of topped carrots creating an orange display.

The women in Chad do not eat foods that are ingested with preservatives nor do they eat meat that is filled with anti-biotics nor vegetables that are picked green and that ripen to color during shipping.

I think of my grandmother who not only walked everywhere but my immediate memory picture is her standing in the garden in her 'Hoover' eating a tomato she just picked off the vine. I am remembering when we all had Victory Gardens even after WWII was over - I also think our air is filled with palutiants because of the number of vehicles on the road.

No we cannot go back - however, I do think the more local food we eat the better we will all be. The other issue to me is how everyone runs to the doctor for everything - the days of staying in bed for a day or two while balancing the enzymes in your stomach with a clean-out do not seem to fit most life styles - The idea of natural is not chic nor, is it the sign of success - almost 'earth shoe Valvo' where as most women are still trying to break through their personal glass ceiling and cannot afford to look, act, or think like 'earth mother.'

If natural could be made to look not so much sexy although, that is the word tossed around to mean sleek, fast track, success - that is the image that is on the pedestal and to take time unless it is to run a race or, be a member of a gym finishing up with a smoothie that has wheat grass is not working in fresh, raw vegetables to your diet nor is a fast run around a track the slow everyday bending, reaching and lifting when the body became a useful asset towards creating a healthy lifestyle.

I may be barking up a wrong tree but the increase in the numbers of folks who have Cancer alarms me - this to me is in epidemic proportions - OK AIDS is a new issue but the remaining heart, diabetes, etc. we have always had with us - the numbers have increased because population has increased - but Cancer - something is wrong - the increase in the last 35 years is alarming to me. Oh there is detection now that was not available 50 years ago however, how often did someone die of Cancer 50 years ago as compared to the numbers who are ridding their bodies of Cancer today. Something is wrong and the only thing I can think of is the air, water and food we pass through our body.

Claire, as I remember, Texada is much larger than Lasqueti, and can be reached by a "car" ferry. The ferry to Lasqueti takes only people and "stuff", no cars. I hope we can get up there to visit again sometime.

Here's the Lasqueti web site:

http://www.lasqueti.bc.ca/

My cousin is a published poet (I'm bragging, of course). And I see she has a new book out - I'll have to order that.

http://www.brickbooks.ca/BL-Wheeler.htm

Wow Mary I am drooling - I would like to visit this island - Wow - when does summer kick in - and how long is winter...? And the book site is wonderful - I wasn't sure is your cousin is selling the books he features or just showing the books he thinks are worthy of a read...there are authors featured I had not heard of and now my curiosity is running full steam...

My cousin, Sue Wheeler, is the author of the book of poetry - not the bookseller. It's her third book of poems. That's just a site that I found that had something about her and her work.

The only thing I really know about the weather in that area is what we were told by our B&B host the first time we were there. We were staying in Tofino, which is on the Pacific side of Vancouver Island. We asked about the winters. She said it rarely got below 40, maybe an occasional frost, but that it was overcast most of the time during the winter. The summers, I would assume were pretty moderate. I guess you'd have to check the Vancouver Island Chamber of Commerce or travel bureau or something to get a year-round weather chart.

Her house is self-built, on a bluff overlooking the Georgia Strait - just gorgeous, if a bit primitive (for my tastes as a full-time residence).

I agree with Barbara about the nature of food in the West. However, another piece of the puzzle is the side effect of many meds people take. Pain killers and anti=depressants are notorious for affecting metabolism and some meds alter real hunger centers of the brain as well as perceptions of hunger- and of course technological society leaves little room for walking, and other manual tasks that were part of one's day in the past.

I remember my mother was diabetic and always overweight in my lifetime. she graduated from pills to Insulin and was somewhat out of control with the diabetes. She got pretty depressed as she got older and could not lose weight. I'd learned later she had a goal of getting back into her wedding dress. Anyway the story is for some reason I can't remember, she stopped taking the Insulin and once she did started to lose weight which then had her able to control the diabetes through proper nutrition.

I am not saying Insulin is the culprit in weight control, but this experience along with noticing people who'd gone on a variety of anti-depressants balloon up in weight (which made them more depressed) and people on long term pain killers and anti-inflammatories gain weight and lose sleep and then took sleep aides with compounded the problem.....

Hmmm I wonder what our guests would say about all this- especially those from other times.

MaryZ I really love the photos, and description of your nieces island home.. My sort of place..

barbara I take vitamins when I remember and I leaned here somewhere that they are acid. no wonder I reach for the tums shortly after.

I take thyroid since I don't make my own and it makes a difference in losing weight. since I've been more careful about it I've lost about seven pounds eating as usual.

Pain killers and sleep aids depress me but so does pain and sleep deprevation . . catch twenty two.

just making do in the world has become increasingly difficult. I'm depressed and I know it. . that's supposed to help. no denial here. and then there is the daily news like this one this morning. I posted it in the blog with comments.

blog addy is http://www.actingout1.blogspot.com

I think did that from memory.

I wtote about us homenids as being the most beastly of beasts killing for pleasure even making it into a sport and glorifying it with religion and politics. yep I'm depressed.

claire

Thanks for the information of vitamins being acid Winsum - I think my acid/alcholine balance is a factor in why my tummy goes wicky ever so often.

I guess YiliLin this explains why many of us require a change of diet and cannot get away with eating as we did when we were in our 40s and 50s - most of us take some medication and many of us take herbs or vitamins - we are not as physically active unless we take the time to use our bodies and so we build up acid in our systems. Makes sense to me.

Well we came round to our physical in this conversation - how much we affected our spiritual life I am not sure and yet - I think many of us had a good time connecting with our dreams and sharing those dreams so that is a sort of soulful connection - we were all pretty informed about the guests we chose and the rest of us learned a bit more about these guests so there is the mental or informed connection - at times I think we even managed a conversation with give and take - not always easy when we cannot see the body language and tone of voice that accompanies our written words.

All in all as we wind down I not only enjoyed the past two weeks but I feel good that we accomplished something here and hope we are all the better for it. I know I am - as I review the guest list it is smile time - there isn't a guest on there I would be bored meeting and the combinations are brilliant.

To me tomorrow, Halloween is the beginning of the Holiday season - a season of creating dreams - we have one more day to play here in our dreams - if it ended now I would be as satisfied as if one of the dream maker's Christopher Robin came into our 100 acre wood and told us, as if we were Pooh, Tiger, Piglet, Eeyore, Owl, Kanga and Roo, "promise you won't forget me, ever?" And wouldn't that be a dream gathering for simple but profound conversation - although I will take Raty and Mole from Wind in the Willows any day of the week...

Thank you Barbara for a fantastic CM I enjoyed all the posts immensely with their diversity and wit. It was a brilliant idea to dream about hosting our favorite people around our dinner table to discuss their own particular passion, I loved it.

Thanks Barbara, I have realy enjoyed being here, your a great DL. Apprieciated all who came to dinner.

This was a good topic, Barbara - certainly thought-provoking. Thanks

I didn't come up with a list, but I enjoyed each and every post !! Thanks so much to Barbara, and to you all

Thanks Barbara for this discussion. Maybe we can consider in the future discussing some biographies of some our dinner guests?

In addition to Will Rogers, I would invite Pres. Reagan, Pres. Gorbachev, and Margaret Thatcher, Britain's first woman Prime Minister.

I would have two alternates in case Ms. Thatcher couldn't make it: Mary Baker Eddy and Mother Theresa.

Oh No not Maggie Thatcher - she was a dictator in her cabinet. It would have been a one sided conversation at the dinner table. LOL

Wheee we got them all in Happy Bill - whew what a group of folks - Reagan and Gorbachev wow and then Margaret into the mix - I can just see Will Rogers handling all of them although Gorbachev always seemed like such the gentleman - your alternates are strong gritty women just like Margaret Thatcher - so glad you shared your group - gets us thinking of what it would be like to have strong decisive folks running this world again.

Gorbachev gave us his voice against the invasion of Iraq I wonder how Reagan would handle things and I wonder if Margerat and GWB would be as close as GWB is to Tony Blair - lots to wonder about - thanks for this superb selection...

Kiwi - now, now, now - cold water and dreams just do not mix - but my word you also had some strong personalities in your group - this is fun isn't it as we day dream away...

Way back there someone wondered if there was something to the fact that some of us choose current personalities and others of us choose personalities from the past - I have a feeling we all choose our guests for reasons that none of us could guess since we would be guessing from our own viewpoint which is not the view point of the dreamer...

Happy Bill did you have a location or time for your gathering?

...I thought since it started on the 16th of the month...

I must thank you also, Barbara for such wonderful leadership. Thanks so much for all the encouragement and all the little questions that kept me engaged, all of your hard work on all of the links...and a great big thanks to ALL OF YOU, the best guests any conversational get-together could ever have!

Alliemae

I would invite Saint Augustine, Sigmund Freud, Thomas Merton, and Paddy Chayefsky. That gathering would create one lively discussion. Freud would insist that God is a figment of our imagination, caused by an immature desire to have a never-ending father figure. Saint Augustine would talk about how his life became enlightened after his mother kept praying for his conversion. Then he became the foremost theologian of the Catholic Church for the next thousand years. Merton would side with Saint Augustine and discuss his own experience of conversion/enlightenment, leading up to his baptism at the Church of Corpus Christi, close to Columbia University, where he was studying as an undergraduate. Chayefsky would simply show his play Gideon, in which God, played by Frederick March, was portrayed as a pathetic individual who was disempowered by a man, a biblical army general named Gideon. Then I would discuss my own journey from strongly favoring the positions of Freud and Chayefsky, and somehow ending up, ironically, solidly in the mystical belief system of St. Augustine and Merton. It has been a long and tortuous journey. I think each of these highly gifted individuals would build a strong and convincing argument for his world view.

The time and location of this meeting would be of secondary importance. I would ask each guest to comment on the opposing world view. I would ask each one to demonstrate why their particular way of seeing the world was realistic and beneficial to them. The person whom I would eliminate from the conversation would be Chayefsky. St. Augustine and Freud were both so totally brilliant and influential in their philosophical stance that each of them would have to stay. Merton is my favorite writer, and so I would keep him on the guest list.

Eleanor

Oh Eleanor - after my heart - another who thinks deep and long about something greater than ourselves - with all the mystery those writers could articulate - I am not familiar with the play although I have heard the title - now my curiosity is peeked and I must read it.

I am off to find the links and add you to our list of hosts - it just keeps getting better and better.

Alliemae, Curious Minds is only a two week discussion - we start on the 16th and go to the end of the month and so yes, we are wrapping this up. There were so many issues we could have continued to talk about but like all good things sometimes it is better not shelving all the thoughts away so that like a Mexican jumping been we keep the energy going that this topic and conversation started.

And my oh my you are all very generous with your thanks - it was a good two weeks wasn't it - I've been captivated by everyone's grouping and it sounds like y'all had a good time as well.

OK I am off now to put Eleanor's choices on our chart.

Barbara St. Aubrey ~ yes this was such fun. I found myself thinking about my guests and who I would eliminate. I've decided Marie Antionette has to be un-invited. As some have said, I don't think she'd have much to say to my guests. I'm more interested in art and music but I still feel she was treated badly.

I have at least a dozen websites left to explore.
Take care everyone and thanks. We can dream can't we !

Thank you so much for an extremely successful CM It doesnt surprise me that you came up with such an interesting and innovative discussion. I apologize for not posting more...even if I didnt I enjoyed thinking about my guests and certainly entertained by everyone else;s. I am scheduled to do the one in November and and there is no way I CAN TOP THIS ...You have set the bar high for the rest of us. HUGS TO YOU ACROSS THE MILES ...always , anna

Anna - please - no competition - with bars set high - I know what you are saying and I really appreciate the Kudos - however, we bring our interests and sometimes they match many and other times there are only a few - I did one on Butterflies a year or so ago that I think only 3 or 4 posted. - I enjoyed it - they enjoyed it - it was just that we were only a few who enjoyed it. There was so little we did not know that all the curiosity in the world led us nowhere.

I know whatever you bring will be appreciated and therefore a success because Anna it sounds sappy but it is true - you are a success - I admire your expansive and cheerful nature - you make us feel loved. Your love of poetry is infectious and you know so many poets; that alone is an education.

An aspect of this conversation that I did not foresee is to have a peek into the hearts and minds of those who shared - the caliber of guests chosen is just sterling and everytime I think of EmmaBarb's Fallingwater location my heart soars.

Hey Barbara- thank you! So what do you have planned for us next?

now anna is "up next". is it something that you all volunteered to do and you have to await your turn? everyone is different and I wish I knew more about the astrology thing that came up so as to do charts on those of us who participated and compare them with the choices we made. we do have a pro amongst us who could do that ?????

claire

Curious Minds started maybe 5 or 6 years ago - do not have a good memory for when - the volunteer who started Curious Mind went on to other things in his life and several volunteers not wanting to see it go by the wayside picked up the general concept - the heading was changed to Curious Minds - the concept being the same where a current issue, or editorial, or critique available on the web is linked as the basis for the discussion.

It is a quick two week exploration of a subject that the discussion leader is comfortable with - Anna arranges the calendar each year so that there is a volunteer discussion leader for each month - I believe, again not accurate, that Anna has 5 discussion leaders who are scheduled to bring topics to Curious Minds.

We learned the hard way if the Discussion Leader is not excited about a topic the discussion tanks so that Curious Minds is not single minded towards a topic but it is a two week engagement of shared ideas with the DL helping folks feel welcome, acknowledging their input and how it relates to the topic while moving the topic along.

The folder at the top of the Books & Lit page called The Book Nook: A Meeting Place for Readers-- Everyone is Welcome! is a great place to visit and offer suggestions of books or topics that you are interested in... if there is a DL who shares your interest and there are a number of others who also share the interest and would participate then the topic comes together.

Winsum, there may be some participants in the Odd and Unsual Happenings discussion who know about creating astrological charts. You can ask there to find out.

I hate to be a dissenting voice, but, to me, the astrological part of this discussion was a real turn-off. I skipped all the posts that got into that. Just one of those things in which I have no knowledge or interest.

hehehe Mary we each have our interests don't we - I think we ended up with so much variety this time there was room for all sorts of comments - we did a bit on diet and food in general - some of the fantasy menus were great - I still hoot in my head over Ginger's appetizer - peanut butter sandwiches - who would have guessed and yet, how much fun -

Another that I thought was remarkable - with all the political figures included it was interesting to me to note the ones who were not suggested.

Looks like a storm blowing in - black clouds and wind - coming from the East - that is strange - we typically get our weather from the south in the summer - and the west most of the rest of the year unless a norther blows in. This may be something just spreading out that is coming up or down I-35 - the weather does travel the I-35 corridor which is tornado alley - hmmm I better go turn the news on and shut this down for a bit.

with that in mind I decided that in order to continue to denagrate I should know what I was talking about and picked her brains and did charts on everyone I knew for a year or so. It's a psuedo science where they rationalize all the things that do not fit the individual or NATIVE with mathematic relationships. between the various parts of the chart. They've made up some new ones that are not planets too like midheaven, part of fortune etc. I skip these and just get an over impression of what is there. It can be pretty amazing doing that and using your own intuition. My fried was very intuitive and in fact somewhat psychic. I do believe in that as a talent like any other.

, but strangly there are times when the fit is so close it's hard to ignore. . the sun-signs and the distribution of the planets and the atribures associated with them as icons for a certain kind of personality are often right on. . . It's a mystery for sure and I love mysteries. . . claire for people in the field the icons re a short hand designation for describing a particular kind of person. as LEO wants to lead and is often a public person. . .

One might say about a person who needs attention wants to take everyone along with him is also generous and magnetic, possibly an actor or polatition, that "he is such a Leo" and a Virgo might be thought of as a helpful knitpicker who can't see the forest for the trees. my own sun picses has a little of all the others in it and gets chaotic at times trying to keep up with herself. that could be me. it does emphasize the arts relationships and a world view of things. at least in my book of icons.

well I am a Scorpio and the SEX sign of the ZODIAC LOL I am pleased with that but some of the things dont please me so I dont accept those attibutes ..It is a fun thing to do but as a rule for me that is where it stops UNLESS of course it describes something that I agree with or think it is a good thing to be....sorry I am laughing at myself here ...anna and I will try to give us something fun and interesting to do in November ..anna

I have to laugh too Anna - I have none of the attributes of my star sign!

and even if you completely wipe out all the planetary impacts it still shines over everything. scorpio has posative and negative aspects aside from sex. it's powerful and whatever it's doing it will do it very strongly always convinced tht it's right. . .

the men are difficult the women not so. they just live to support their men.

that's all I know about scorpio except that richar burton was one.

I wouldn't want to make a scorpio mad at me though. that's a powerful dislike to deal with and they are all very bright and subtle and well. . . i just wouldn't want that. see it can get to you even while saying you don't really believe in all that stuff.

I would NEVER be mad at you..I admire your talent and forthright way and besides you said Scorpios are very bright and subtle NOW I agree and that makes my day.....love you, anna

Aah yes but remember the underpinning of astrological philosophy is that there are energies at play in the universe at the moment of an individual's birth. And each minute (of 15 minutes) thereafter throughout life angular relationships are formed to that moment in time.

What I think most people react to with astrology is the generalizations and newspaper column catch all descriptions and predictions.

Also when you think about it, the astrological signs in particular, are metaphors for some well researched psychological states- and as some of you already know Jung built much of his psychological principles around or in synch with the ancient astrological principles.

Rarely would a person manifest only one sign (psychological principle) the agreeable or the disagreeable aspects. Even at the moment of birth the 'potential' to manifest particular qualities in particular areas of the life (houses) is what a birth chart reads. there are 12 signs and 12 houses, most charts have at least 10 signs manifesting, each with different degrees of intensity (placement).

If one reads and studies the ancients as compared to the writing of more modern astologers (e.g. Greene) you would notice a significant difference in the approach to readings. It is interesting for example, that in the ancient texts there was no Pluto and the life path was seen clearly between slow moving planetary influences and the fast one (Mercury, mars).

Some want to see astrology as fortune telling and that is what they expect and then if an event does not play out as 'predicted' they are disappointed or discredit the system. My approach, and I say that because I would not want to be misinterpreted as suggesting I am saying a'truth' but my approach is to look at a chart and then its progressions and transits (the life path) as potential energy available for the person to use, disregard, or help explain patterns of behavior. The latter is important because as we all know, even though we often blame external circumstances, we pretty much know we created those circumstances through our choices or the energy we send out on a particular day.

Ever notice a day you go out and choose to smile at everyone no matter what, you see the world as a better place...etc. wow this post is way too long. sorry.

Thank you for participating in the Who's Coming to Dinner for October.

This discussion is now Read Only. The next topic will begin in mid November. We'll look forward to seeing you all back here then.

jane

Around The Lamp Carl Larsson (1853-1919)

Curious Minds

A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines,
journals and articles on the Internet.

Tell us about your family gatherings....

Does everyone wear the same Tee shirt or sweat shirt?
Does your family meet in parks, cities of interest, or at the beach...?
Do you have games, menus, recipes that everyone looks forward to repeating?
If you or your family is not originally from the U.S. does your family gather to celebrate life in ways that is not typical of the way we celebrate life in the U.S.
Are family gatherings centered around a holiday or do you plan an annual Reunion?
Is the holiday a time for your family to share a traditional meal? If so, is there a tradional menu and who cooks the food?

Do you exchange gifts during certain gatherings? If so, does your family have a special way they give each other a gift?

...there was sherry and walnuts and bottled beer and crackers by the dessertspoons; and cats in their fur-abouts watched the fires; and the high-heaped fire spat, all ready for the chestnuts and the mulling pokers.
Dylan Thomas ~ A Child's Christmas in Wales

Web Results Family Reunions.
Reunion Celebration - NCNW
Hospice Foundation of America: Grief and the Holidays
Coping With Loss During The Holidays
Book ~ Fun & Games for Family Gatherings: With a Focus on Reunions
After they all go home...

Discussion Leader: Barbara St. Aubrey
This Family Gatherings discussion starts HERE!

Wheee - we are here - Annafair bless her heart is down and needs to stay snug in her bed for awhile - we are pitch hitting for her and so there will be a few of us peeking in - I leave for my family gathering on Monday when Joank and Pedln will keep the fires going...

Here we are on the eve of a day that many of gather our family around us to celebrate something more than just thanks - it is to me a celebration of family and tradition - there are many ways families gather and hopefully in the next couple of week you will share them with us - the holiday season is one but I wonder how many think that a gathering should be an Ozzie and Harriet type experience and yet, I wonder how many of us are not living a traditional family life...

Well Ozzie and Harriet or Doonsbury or Family Circus or even, Garfield maybe closer to your family's lifestyle today - and so let's hear about your reunions or, other times during the year when your family gathers creating memories.

Anna is a poet and she loves the work of other poets - this month we have been reading the work of Anna Akhmatova - there is a poem of Anna Akhmatova that is so perfect to read as we start this conversation - and so in honor of our Annafair - get well my dear - here is the poem by Anna Akhmatova called...

March Elegy

I have enough treasures from the past
to last me longer than I need, or want.
You know as well as I . . . malevolent memory
won't let go of half of them:
a modest church, with its gold cupola
slightly askew; a harsh chorus
of crows; the whistle of a train;
a birch tree haggard in a field
as if it had just been sprung from jail;
a secret midnight conclave
of monumental Bible-oaks;
and a tiny rowboat that comes drifting out
of somebody's dreams, slowly foundering.
Winter has already loitered here,
lightly powdering these fields,
casting an impenetrable haze
that fills the world as far as the horizon.
I used to think that after we are gone
there's nothing, simply nothing at all.
Then who's that wandering by the porch
again and calling us by name?
Whose face is pressed against the frosted pane?
What hand out there is waving like a branch?
By way of reply, in that cobwebbed corner
a sunstruck tatter dances in the mirror.

and Barbara that's a wonderful poem

pinch and hit some more. . .Claire

A wonderful poem indeed. What a rush of memories it brings up!!

I talked to Anna today: she is feeling better, and her laugh is back.

JoanK, I'm glad to hear Anna is feeling better. I hope that even thought she doesn't feel up to joining in our discussion here that she might peek in and know that we're all thinking about her and wishing her well.

What an interesting group of questions in the heading. And I can't answer a one. Perhaps at one time . . . . But now I'm a member of that large group of "traditional" scattered families -- from coast to coast. My two West Coast daughters will be together for Thanksgiving. The East coast children will not be together for this coming holiday, but each will be with those they also call family. And the mama in the middle -- will be with the friends who "adopted" me years ago and with whom I've shared more holidays than I can count. And I will give thanks for all of them and for my treasures from the past.

I, too, am in a scattered family. My daughter will be with her in-laws in Arizona. My sister will go from here to her daughter in California. This will be the first Thanksgiving since my husband died. Sometimes I find it hard to be thankful for this year, but I am thankful for the 50 years that we shared, and for the wonderful friends and family (including my Seniornet family) who have gathered around and supported me this year.

My husband was the turkey baker. My son says he wants to give it a try. It will be just he and I. The food may be a bit of an adventure, but it will be eaten with a lot of love.

Oh Joan this will be a difficult one for you won't it -

I am more concerned over Christmas - my way to cope is usually to get to a place where I can laugh and joke - but my oldest son died last year at Christmas - I usually go to my daughter's in Saluda. And part of what they look forward to is my fixing these wonderful unique meals - which I did fix two meals that Cade the younger boy just raved and raved - then we got word my son was found - and now I keep thinking do I fix any more wonderful meals or is that the prologue to someone else dying -

But jokes aside it does make you feel discumbobolated - everything is different and yet, it isn't. I was divorced after 40 years of marriage when I was 59 - my kids were married except for Peter who was already living in New Mexico - I decided I didn't want to try and make Christmas and wait for 15 minute visit from my youngest son Paul and his wife Sally or Kathamarie my daughter and her husband Gary. At the time Paul and Sally were expecting their first - and so rather than feeling lost I found a very inexpensive trip that included airfare and hotel for 6 days and a ticket to a show - I added two more day and went to London - got half priced tickets to several more shows and the only splurge I did was on Christmas day I joined a group on a bus that went to Brighten and on the way stopped at a pre-arranged restaurant for a traditional British Christmas dinner. The total 8 days cost me around $1,000 - didn't buy any souvieneers , Breakfast was included and except to grab a cup of tea or coffee I only ate one meal a day - I had a grand time arriving 4 days before Christmas and leaving 3 days after Christmas - I enjoyed it so much I repeated it for the next 4 years.

After Paul and Sally had their first Chris, it was only 15 months later they had the twins - they went to Sally's family for Christmas and then the next year they had moved to El Paso and so there would be no more sharing Christmas - my daughter had Ty 6 months after the twins were born and they used to drive to Kansas/Missouri to be with Gary's family for Christmas and so my going to London was just perfect.

I was a fish out of water no matter what I did and this was a wonderful time that I budgeted tightly to make happen - cherished memories - I looked it up and today the same trip would cost about $1500 - not bad if you use the bus and train rather than cabs and build memories of seeing things rather than having to have tangible goods to remember the experience.

Just something to think about - there are wonderful locations like places in the Rocky Mountains or on the beaches of Mexico to consider - at this point if it were me I would think of going for just a few days, maybe only 5 to Paris and see the Louvre which would take 2 or 3 days to see it.

What ever you do - I will be thinking of you - and somehow I will also get through this holiday season - I am expecting there will always feel like there is a chink that was chopped out of me but somehow I guess we have to accept the missing chink will feel raw till it scares over.

Pedln - you too have a different holiday to plan don't you - sounds like you have something worked out that brings you some satisfaction - it never is the same though is it after the kids are on their own and we no longer create the kind of holidays we did when they were all little and we could see their eyes shine with the excitement -

I think I have tried to re-create that excitement for awhile and now I am into wanting quiet - there is one of Agatha Christie's mystery with the character Poirot that I saw on PBS some years ago that to me was bliss when it came to Christmas day - of course Poirot is called away but his day was planned - he was nicely dressed in what we would consider our Sunday best - sitting in a comfortable chair near the window for light - his plan was to read a book, have his hot tea and his treat of 2 bon bons of chocolate. I loved the simple and yet rich idea for the day - that to me would be a dream - I have grown tired of all the green and red.

In fact there were 3 Christmases after I no longer went to London and spent a great part of the day at my daughter's before she moved from Austin - rather than decorate with anything traditional - I purchased several flats of pansies and Ivy and low growing pinks - I picked up some moss and created a whole table scape of these low growing plants with only the sheep from the stable and included a few additional sheep I picked up - scattered them among the greenery and flowers and then on the chandaleer I hung a wreath with white ribbon and hung with various lengths of narrow ribbon some of the very oldest of the family ornaments that were my mother's and grandmother's from Germany.

I loved it and with no one ever caming to the house those two years it was my own private fantasy - after those two year my daughter had moved to South Carolina followed 3 years later they moved to North Carolina - that is where I go at Christmas.

Oh I just love the painting by the Swedish illustrator Carl Larsson in the heading !

Annafair ~ Get Well Wishes !!

Claire ~ my first reaction to this topic was upsetting too but I decided to read the posts and try to see some parallels to my own if any.

Hmmm seems like there are more of us that are at odds with the holidays - lets talk about it - I know I try to make up for the loss that I feel - the loss of not having the opportunity to do a holiday now as I did when my children were children. What I miss is that I am not as much a part of the doing and planning as they are - it is like it is handed to us in a wrapped package and we are supposed to be polite and accept it - regardless if we are living near or far - if we visit our grown children or we muddle through on our own...

Maybe we should all share idea of how we could make the holidays more meaningful with the circumstances of our lives since they do not look like "Family Circus" or "Ozzie and Harriet"

As I understand it Anna makes sure she has folks around her even if they are not family and so her view on holidays and family gatherings are full of people. I am not like Anna - but I also know I do not want to rock the boat and so I go along with the plans made by my kids.

Let's explore some ideas even if they do not seem practical - Just throw them out and maybe after a few days a combination of ideas will come up with something that would be worth trying for one of us.

Sounds like the problem for most of us is the loss of family - either a loss through death or a loss because they moved away - I wonder if looking at the issues surrounding loss would be helpful to help figure this out...

Barbara, this is a great Curious Minds topic, I will love to hear what others will say.

Because my family is large, I plan our Christmas months in advance. This Christmas will be just us for a change, meaning one daughter who lives downstairs from me, her husband and their two 2 teenagers. I have always baked the turkey, but last year Isabelle said she wanted to learn how to do it the same way and it came out perfect. We usually have the traditional Christmas menu that we never do the rest of the year. Turkey, tourtière, a meat pie, mashed potatoes, green veggies, dessert.

My children are all scattered, one in Europe, one in the US and two others in other cities, but every 5 years or so we gather together, about l7 of us and have a family reunion and invite a family member or a friend who is alone to join us. I have been alone a few times too for Christmas, I don't let that bother me.

JoanK, I remember the first holidays after my husband died, no matter how hard I tried to be cheerful, I couldn't. It takes a while to get adjusted to widowhood, especially if you have been married 50 years. The loneliness is very heavy, but you have friends and family, still it's very difficult the first Christmasses while you are still grieving, but you are a strong and positive woman and you will go over this hump I am sure, be patient my friend.

Éloïse

Hi friends - I'm looking forward to hearing what everybody has to say. I'm out of town, and won't be home until late tomorrow. But I'll try to keep up.

I have friends who like this year on the tenth of November we went to Marshal, Mi. for a traditional Thanksgiving dinner at the turkeyville farms there we had fresh turkey baked with all the trimmings so it was good food, good friends so things have changed for most of us because of lost loved ones but we make do. Then we have a church that has a Thankgiving dinner on Thanksgiving day that I go to and see many people that I know some graduated the same year I did, They also have a Chrismas dinner that we went to when mom was able and I still go. I feel sad for those that are not able to go out due to health problems and those in nursing homes without family.

This one of the reasons I love and apprieciate senior net and all the posters on it as it gives me people to talk to.

This winter I am going to las Vegas to stay a while with Babs in January and then Feburay will be in Mesa a suburb of Phoenix, Az. and with stay with Delphine and David from Minnesota the state I was born and have many cousins there. Never met David and Delphine but have always wanted to and this year will stay with them while I look for an apartment of my own for the winters.

This one of the reasons I love and apprieciate senior net and all the poster on it as it gives me people to talk to as you are my extended family.

As I am blessed as one of our group says.

Your senior net sister, Ginger

I come from a very dysfunctional family. I gave up sharing Christmas with my siblings some years ago due to the fact there was always a drama on the day.

I am absolutely delighted to say that my kids all love each other and get on really well. They enjoy their Christmas so much that they have decided to spend two whole days together at my sons each year now. Most of us go down on Christmas Eve and come home on Boxing day late in the afternoon.

This type of Christmas is truly wonderful. I have never had this before in my life until my children began to get their own families and we started our own family traditions.

We are still finding our way and developing our traditions. We don't give to each other only the children. We do give to the one daughter and her partner who have no children. If they do have a child their gifts will cease their child will get the family gifts.

Everyone contributes to the food. We have a menu and all get our dish to prepare. We bring the ingredients if we are staying Christmas Eve and my sons big kitchen becomes a hive of activity.

My son has a property as big as a small park and its fully surrounded by solid concrete walls. Its very safe for the children We can let them outdoors to run riot. (its summer here)

I think the fact that we stay all together for those two days enforces the family bond in an otherwise very busy year.

I have been alone at Christmas before and it was a terribly depressing time. I really feel for those who have to spend Christmas alone.

Carolyn

moved away. too far away what else can I say.

happy holidays. and shopping the catalogues for xmas things to send them. that's sorta fun.

claire

Carolyn, it sounds like you and your children are well on your way to establishing your own traditions. And your comment about summer reminds me about our Christmases in Puerto Rico, where we lived for ten years.

And grew to love new symbols of Christmas -- instead of snow, we saw pointsettias that grew as tall as trees. And men would come in small groups to sing "aguinaldos" -- Puerto Rican Christmas Carols. And the "asultos" -- a group of friends would descend on someone's house in the middle of the night, singing and making noise until they were all invited in for drink and food. Then the hosts would become part of the group and they'd go descend on someone else. (Someone tried it in a stateside city and said it did not go over well at all.)

And the special foods -- like pasteles, a kind of meat pie wrapped in plantain leaves -- a lot of work to make, made only during the holidays.

Now our holidays are different, but I will still get out my old sheet music and play aguinaldos on the piano, as will my children with their pianos, and sing "Alegria."

EmmaBarb - did you find any parallels yet?

I saw something today that gave me an idea - several of us are having to direct a new stage and cast for gatherings we were comfortable creating in the past. I saw this book about creating a scrapbook of sorts that becomes a visual chronicle - a page about your dreams, another about your memories, your daily routines, your greatest loves and your secret pet peeves. It’s all about savoring the wonderful ebb and flow of your everydays, and celebrating it all in visual mementos of your life journey.

I thought to what a wonderful idea - we cannot keep the stage the same and until we can create a new stage with people that we would like on our stage a way to mark the loss could be to be to create a collage of sorts on a page - I could see one for preparing the meal - preparing the house for the day - then the meal itself and anything that the group did after the meal.

The more I thought of it I wondered if it would interest my family who is getting together this year for Thanksgiving. This will be the first time in 20 years and it will be at my son's in Lubbock so it will not be "my" thanksgiving. But together creating a scrape book page could be fun. However, I can smile thinking of creating a scrape book alone - sort of a memoir or book of memories.

Éloïse you also with a scattered family - seems like so many of the pictures we have and still hold dear are from a different time in history because I think there are more of us with scattered families than there are families who live near each other.

In Canada you do celebrate a Thanksgiving Day but isn't it sometime in October - are there traditional foods that are associated with the day like in the US Turkey seems to be "the" only main course that is appropriate for the day?

Mary Z - out of town - I hope it was fun... you do live in an area of the country that is made for family gatherings with so many rivers, and mountains nearby - lush and picture perfect - I wonder, do you have snowfalls in winter?

Kiwi - I love it - you know right off what is what with your family and decided to do what works best - just love it - and now with your own children you can create some of the good memories with family gatherings that made no sense with that dysfunctional family that is part of your history. Isn't it a hoot to see the children hooping and hollering as they play together. That kind of excitement seems to be reserved for cousins playing and is not the same when school chums play.

winsum after you shared you are struggling I did put a couple of other links in the heading - hope you can take the challenge life gave you and make something meaningful for yourself. When life does not meet the pictures we have in our head of how we would like it to be it is so easy to get depressed feeling we have no control over our circumstances - but you are strong - strong enough to move as you did far from where you had been living to set up a new home for yourself in order to take care of yourself as an independent women - hurrah for you...

Pedln how interesting - to have lived in Puerto Rico - I have never been to any of the islands of the Caribbean - they all sound so lush - and so that is where the song Alegria comes from - is that the same song Alegria that Cirque du Soleil used in their production of Alegria?

I just love that song and we were so fortunate to see that production right here in Austin - they set up this huge tent on the grounds of the old airport and the tickets were still affordable under a $100 and my son and his family were still living in College Station and so it was a treat for them - it was a Birthday gift spread out for all the boys whose birthdays are in the Spring. I need to find my CD and play it today - just love it... Now wait and you will tell me the song you know is not at all the same as the one used by Cirque...

Talk about family gatherings - I have this idea that I do not know if it will happen but oh how I would love it - next year - well really the year after - in 2008 I turn 75 - my birthday is the end of January when there isn't really a lot going on - Super Bowl is still a week or so away and Valentines is a couple of weeks away so that there aren't crowds of folks jamming restaurants and highways or airlines.

Well I am wishing that all 5 grandboys would come for a short weekend stay - the two from Saluda would fly and the three from Lubbock could fly or hop in a car and drive since all of them will have their license. Chris will be only two weeks away from being 19 - the twins and Ty will be 17 and Cade will be 14 going on 20 [you have to know Cade - brilliant and accomplished]

Anyhow they all come on an early flight that lands on Friday evening - they are young and they do not need to rest or freshen up - granted they are underage but it would be a hoot for us all to go down to 6th street to listen to some live music - jazz, blues, country - we could hop from one place to the next - if they are allowed to drink a beer I can order it for them - it may not be the cool thing to be with Grandma but it would introduce them to a club when half of UT is not there because they do not have anything like these clubs where they live.

They would probably sleep in late on Saturday - I have sofas and hide-a-beds to accommodate all of them - then we could try the ice skating rink at North Cross Mall followed by a movie and then a nice meal at a place in my neighborhood that serves Texas style food and the owners are the children of a well known Austin restauranteur of years ago. It is a great warm atmosphere with a Guitarist always playing in the background - they would love the food and I would love their company and then they would all leave on Sunday early so they are back home be a reasonable hour - even if the Lubbock crew drove and left here at 10: they would be home by 5: or 6: according to how they drive.

Well it is a dream and there is a bit more than a year for it to jell so we shall see what we shall see...

A really great dream Barbara,..and one that sounds as tho it could fairly easily come true !!..My daughters arranged a surprise birthday party for me on my 75th...All but one of the grands, and all of the great grands..I have asked for the same on my 85th, if I happen to be still moving..That would be in 4 years...There are already great-greats,..so it would be quite a gathering.. This year Thanksgiving is at my middle daughters house, (where I also live)..My youngest lives just a couple of miles down the road with her husband and daughter, and two of my eldest daughters "children" will be here with their children....It is a difficult time for all of us, because my eldest daughter died on Thanksgiving , two years ago..But it is a wonderful time to pay tribute to her..

Putney I am sorry to hear about your eldest daughter - and I know saying sorry doesn't seem to do anything accept it is the 'right' thing to say - there are several of us who post on Seniornet who have lost one or more of their gown children - it sure is unsettling -

Putney a question that I have struggled with - I wonder, how do you handle it - so often when you meet folks, especially women - one of their first questions is 'how many children do you have?' Instinctively without thinking I say three and then realize no and become flustered and try to explain which is more than the person really needs to know and they are becoming discumbobolated when I become flustered so that the whole thing is awkward and then I am beating myself up for hours after because I presented this awkward moment - some have even patted me on the knee or arm and simply said you still have 3 children.

Maybe I am still in reaction to his death which will only be a year this Christmas but I am curious how do you handle it when someone who you do not know inquires how many children you have...

Eloise, would you be willing to share your recipe for tourtiere with me? I have one which is very tasty, but I don't know how authentic it is. I didn't realize it was traditional for holidays.

Barbara, how touching your post is about having your 5 grandsons for a weekend and you have twins? Me too, 2 daughters and I still remember being soooo big carrying them to full term, they weighed 7 1/2 pounds each, you can imagine the size of me. Your grandsons are all teenage boys, how wonderful, I hope your dream comes true.

Pat H. sure and it's not complicated. Depending on how many pies you want I buy mixed ground veal, pork and beef, water to cover, boil slowly, add salt, onions and savory to taste, not too much. Slow cooking for 2 hours. There that's it and it's delicious, the slow long simmer gives it taste. I roll my own dough put the meat between two regular pie shells, cook one hour until golden.

Although some of my kids live far away we keep in contact as each of us have internet access and we organize big reunion on the net, we rented a cottage in the Laurentian mountains for Christmas once.

Barbara, no we don't celebrate our Thanksgiving in October much in Quebec, at least we don't in our family. We keep family reunions for the Christmas holidays which is very hard to do because of our cold winter. It's not always a White Christmas with soft snow falling silently on a snow covered pavement and sidewalk. We are lucky if it is pleasant at all in the city. But in the country, it is a White Christmas and you have fresh crisp air to breathe. The temperature can go down to -0 F or more, or it can be very pleasant just below freezing which is like spring to us.

Éloïse

I'm home now, and really tired - just trying to get caught up. It was an 8-hour+ drive home, but was uneventful. I was taking a painting workshop at Myrtle Beach, SC.

Barbara, we do live in a lovely area, and very much appreciate what we have. In a typical winter, we'll get may two or three snowfalls of 1-2" each, and it's usually gone within 24 hours. We occasionally get more, of course, but it's rare.

We haven't lived near extended family in more than 40 years, and our daughters have been married and living elsewhere and raising their own families for over 25 years. Ever since in-law families came into the picture, we have done what we called "flex holidays". We celebrated a holiday whenever the most of us (John, me, our girls, and their families) could get together.

Over the years, we've most often had our Thanksgiving dinner on the Saturday after Thanksgiving Day. I don't know what we're going to do this year. Two of our four daughters won't be at our house at all (because of work schedules), Three of the six grandchildren won't be here for sure, the other three will be here sometime, I think. I think this year, we'll wind up going out to dinner whatever day it is with whoever is here at the time. Or maybe I'll just get a lasagna out of the freezer, and we'll work on that.

Daughter Margaret's father-in-law died on his way to their Thanksgiving Day dinner about 10 years ago, so that's a very tough time for her husband's family now. They almost always try to spend that day with his mother.

Christmas is also a flex holiday for us. We've celebrated as early at 18 December, and as late as 31 December. The specific date just isn't important. To John and me, when our girls were growing up, it was important for us to be in our own home on Xmas Day. So, as the grands came along, it was also important to us that they be in THEIR own homes on Xmas Day for their Xmas tree and presents - then visit with families. We haven't opened presents at Grandma and Grandpa's house for years. We give money to the girls, their spouses, and the grands. And we've requested that they make donations to a charity in our names rather than give us presents.

A more important family tradition is in the summer, when we all make every effort to get together for our week at the beach. We've been going to the Gulf Shores, AL, area since 1981.

Barbara, I love your idea of taking your grandsons club-hopping. How special to have a "hip" granny!

We had our 50th wedding anniversary last year, and wound up having no celebration at all. We had told the girls years and years ago that we didn't want a party, but we did suggest closer to the time that we'd like to have dinner just with us and the four girls - no SILs or grands. And we just never could find a time that we could all get together. Maybe sometime we'll do that. But it's no big deal if it never happens. It's more important to us that we enjoy each other in the times we DO get together than to have "command" appearances from time to time.

Food: Our traditional holiday meal is turkey/dressing/gravy, green bean casserole, sweet potatoes, corn, rolls, mincemeat, pumpkin, and pecan pies, plus a whole country ham. This has varied from time to time, and lots more of it nowadays is pre-made. I don't make pies any more, and sometimes, the turkey is one that has been smoked by a friend. For the last 10 or so years, we've had beef (standing rib roast or filets) for Christmas, rather than the whole turkey thing. Last year, I didn't have a country ham, and got lots of whining..."could we possibly have a country ham at Christmas?". So we did.

A standing rib roast is so good and so easy. And if we do steaks or filets, it's even easier - John cooks them on the grill!

Eloise, your meat pie sounds SO good! That's a new one for me.

Barbara St.Aubrey ~ parallels ? still looking

Creating a memoir scrap book sounds like fun. There are some software programs just for doing these on the computer.
I hope your birthday dream in 2008 becomes a reality for you.

I've been trying for about ten years now to set new traditions with my family (very small these days and live a good distance away except for my youngest son who is always so very busy). My oldest grandson (19-yr) told me last week that everyone was coming to my house Christmas Day. I'm delighted and look forward to it. He will be bringing his girlfriend which is new. Last year she was invited and decided she'd rather be at her own house. I also invited a young man who has no place to go for Christmas (for some reason his family doesn't want him around).
I was in an orphanage in my early years after my father died and can relate to noone wanting me for holidays. I often had to stay in the orphanage while everyone else had gone home with a parent or some relative. Up until my mother died I had to go to her house for Thanksgiving or she'd get drunk and get mad at me (of course she got drunk anyway).

My oldest son always requests me to make my yam casserole. I bake the yams first, then in a slightly buttered casserole add brown sugar, cinnamon and fresh grated nutmeg, orange/lemon slices (skin on) and salted pecan halves (which I do myself in an iron skillet). Miniature marshmallows go on top at last minute under broiler briefly.
The other son doesn't eat yams but likes my fresh green beans cooked with a chunk of fatty ham and a little onion, then shoepeg corn on top to steam, salt & pepper and a little sugar. I make both these the day before.
There is a request for a chocolate pie with chocolate wafer crust and sometimes ambrosia and of course fresh baked pumpkin pie (Mrs Smith's). I used to make pound cake from scratch but haven't baked one in years.
The rest of my meal is pretty much make your own sandwiches and salads etc.

All kinds of appetizers are served: both the grandsons asked me to make a taco dip this year (you know, that layered one). I said I would.
I'm unable to do all the holiday menu cooking and baking I used to do...mainly because of my hands hurting when I hold a paring knife (of all things). My family doesn't mind though, they understand and never go home hungry. We're a small family but loving.

Thanksgiving is usually just my youngest son and I for dinner somewhere in town...some place that's open. I enjoy this one-on-one time with him even though it only lasts a couple of hours.

Emma

My kids love tradition, those who live far away especially like to keep every one of them alive. Travelling and moving away from where you were born was not very common when my parents were alive but today I don't know if there are 50% of families who live close to their parent's families. When we meet, they like a traditional menu, turkey, tourtière pie, fruit cake, apple pie, all those I don't make the rest of the year. The fruit cake is a British tradition but I still like to make it a few months in advance.

In the country in Quebec before WW11, when families were huge, during the Holiday season whole parties would go from one house to another, I mean dozens of people all dropping in on their siblings and neighbor's house during Christmas and New Year. The chores were sort of dormant and people had time on their hands. Women used to cook for weeks and freeze food and put it in the cold storage.

I went to my boy friend's grandparent's home on the farm and it was standing room only, the noise level was high and spirits too with alcohol running freely. Singing and dancing to the sound of local musicians. Cigarette, pipe and cigar smoke was thick.

All this is gone except for the traditional dinner, no more smoking and hard liquor except for wine with the meal. But my family still likes to sing Christmas carols. We still decorate a tree and if it weren't for my grandkids I wouldn't bother. The whole city is decorated outside for a whole month and it gives softness to our cold winters.

Éloïse

At first, when asked, I would say three, and then try to explain,...but now I just say three, and only explain if another question requires it..She is certainly still my daughter, as your son will always be your son..

On CBS Sunday morning today, they did a short bit on cranberries. We LOVE cranberries. I make a raw relish, using cranberries, chopped up oranges (peel and all), and some sugar, and chop (not puree) it all together in the food processor. Lasts a long time, and is so yummy. The guy on TV this morning mentioned a cranberry pie. I never thought of that, and don't usually make pies, but I just might try that one.

Eloise--Thanks for the recipe. It looks better than mine, which is similar, but uses sage instead of savory and doesn't have the long simmer.

I feel guilty that I started the discussion off on such a sad note. The holidays are a time when all of our loved ones are with us in spirit -- and as we get older, more and more of them are not there in body.

My children and grands will all be here at Christmas -- Christmas was always much more important in my family than Thanksgiving. When I was first married, My husband and I had to eat two Thanksgiving dinners: one with his family and one with mine. They would compete with each other to overfeed us. The Thanksgiving that I was pregnant with my first, it finally became too much. I fainted on the way home. My body didn't have room for both the baby and all that food, and squeezed my lungs till I wasn't getting any air. From then on, I was more careful.

Fortunately for me, my mother had always had our big Christmas celebration on Christmas eve, rather than Christmas day. I'm sure she started it because she was tired of us waking her up to ask if it was Christmas yet. But until today, It has solved the problem of "which family"? nicely. Mine on Christmas eve, the in-laws on Christmas. This year, daughter's family will be with my son and me on the Eve, and with great-grandmother-in-law on Christmas.

My son and I am planning to move to California, to be near my daughter. After 40 years in Maryland, the idea is scary. I've been thinking a lot about making new traditions: not just for the holidays, but for everyday living. Making new local libraries, restaurants etc. "mine". Finding where the seniors "hang" (here, they hang at the local bookstore - coffee shop, chatting and looking over books). I hope I can find something like that there.

JoanK, it sounds like you have the right idea with traditions. The old ones are wonderful, but it can be exciting to make new ones, too.

My heritage is Scandinavian, and as a child we always had lutfisk and lefse for Christmas Eve dinner, and for dessert yummy Norwegian cookies that we never had the rest of the year. When my children were young we tried different things, eventually settling on Beef Fondue because it makes for a nice leisurely meal.

My Seattle daughter lets the children choose the menu for Christmas Eve. Last year my grandson said, "We're going to have macaroni, but not out of box. It's real macaroni and has potatoes in it, too." When I later asked for the recipe he sent it to me on a PowerPoint slide.

Barbara, I'm not familiar with the Cirque "Alegria." The Puerto Rican carol is about Mary and Joseph on their way to Bethlemen. It starts out (excuse my bad Spanish) --

Hacia Belen se encamina
Maria con su
Amante esposo
Llevando a tu compania
Todo un Dios poderoso
Alegri alegri alegia
Alegri alegri y placer . . . .

I should do just a quicky - daughter stopping off in Austin and will be here in soon - will come back on tomorrow and pick up on all the posts but I did want to get these links up for Alegria from Cirque Du Soleil~Alegria for me the sound would not come up since I have Real Player on my computer and so I found the music here sound Alegria scroll down a bit and all the music from the performance is listed so that you can listen on your chose of sound.

Looks like Cirque is not doing Alegria in the US at this time. I think the words must be very different Pedln but I wonder if the tune is the same...?

Joan please no guilt - it was great that you brought up the reality of most of our lives - all the more to hear how we are celebrating, given many of our experiences make the movie, magazine, TV version of the Holidays as much a fantasy as the looks of the models that so many young girls try to copy - I could see a great issue in which so many folks who do not match the "American Apple Pie Family" would share how they make the holidays special -

I would love to hear the unique ways some choose to honor the holidays like for instance a young divorced mother - an older woman or man who are now alone - one with family nearby and another with no children and still another whose children are scattered - A young family who has lost their only child and an older single who has recently lost a child - a partner where the other is seriously ill in a hospital - kids who have a parent in jail - a jailed mother - a retired couple who are living on less income and all the children are scattered - a newly divorced mom or dad with grown kids who do not celebrate the holidays at home.

I think it could be a great copy to hear some ideas of how folks are handling what probably represents more than half the households in this country. There could be all sorts of realistic decorating ideas - if most singles are like me after having put up one tree when I was alone - never again - all it did was remind me of what wasn't... horrible...

What I do that I love is get a real wreathe and tie it with either red or white ribbons to the chandelier over the breakfast table and hang with various length ribbons the very oldest family ornaments and then I fill the house with fresh flowers - for the last 6 years I go to my daughter's in Saluda NC - several times I traveled home on New Year's day however last year, and this year I was/will be home by New Year's - I start some bulbs in early December that are in bloom when I return.

Ever since I have been alone I just love my New Year's Day - and missed it the couple of times I was still at my daughter's - I go for a hike in one of our State Parks - a long 7 to 10 mile hike - for some reason I do not know how I started it but I must have a red apple to eat when I get back in the car - then home for a hot bath - a bowl of good soup with a lovely glass of wine while I watch the New Year's Concert from Vienna on PBS.

Went on longer than I should - need to get the quilts in off the line - left them out so they would be aired nice and fresh - seems when Kathamarie called her very best friend she learned her friend, Sylvia is dying with maybe a couple of weeks to live and so where she was going right on to Lubbock now she will be here and leave for Lubbock tomorrow evening when I leave - we will play tag on the way up which is good since she does not have to worry about missing turns - she can follow me and one of the boys can travel with me so we will have a great chance to visit on the way...

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter's friend. I'm sure she's glad she has you near her at a time like this.

What wonderful traditions. I love your new years. I've always felt that the way we Americans celebrate new years is really poor -- even when I was younger and drank some, the idea of going out and getting drunk never struck me as any kind of celebration.

I saw an interesting tradition on TV today. It was meant to celebrate Spring, but would do for a new years celebration at any time of year. It was a show about a village in Ireland. The village gathered around the village well. Each one threw something old into the well (never mind what that did to the water supply). As they did, they recited:

"As I discard the burden of the past, I look forward to the hope of the future"

Barbara, my hearing doesn't respond well to digital sound, but I don't think the Cirque is the same Alegria that I know.

Love your New Year's tradition -- it sounds like you make a lovely entire day. I understand what you mean about the tree. Putting one up is not so bad, but taking it down alone is not good at all. I finally gave the artificial tree and all the lights to the high school student council when they were collecting for needy families. Now that I'm never home for Christmas, my decorating is on a much smaller scale.

My community is a small city where many of the families have lived for generations. In the summer there are lots of announcements in the paper about various family reunions and where they will be held. One of my good friend's family has one every two years, in a park, very organized with chairpersons, mailing lists, etc. But the one that amazed me was a few years back, the Keller family, and they published a book afterwards listing everyone in the family and it was really thick. Some friends of mine had a copy, they were in it, and I was just floored at all these people that I knew of, but didn't know they were related. Later when I'd see one of the listed kids at school I'd ask are you related to so n so? And they'd say, "Well, I don't really know him, but I think he's a cousin. (Around here they say, don't talk bad about anybody because you may be talking to their relatives.)

Another friend's reunion was on a smaller scale, but they produced a little cookbook afterwards, with everyone contributing recipes. Kind of a neat idea.

A couple years ago I was at Mt. Rushmore and a huge group came into the cafeteria there and they were all wearing family reunion shirts with "Knutson" on them. I got all excited because we have some of them way back, but I talked with them and didn't find any long lost relatives.

Well Kathamarie did get to see Sylvia - bittersweet but a closure that would not have happened except that Kathamarie, my daughter was driving to this part of the country for Thanksgiving - she was even able to to contact a group of her friends so that they met for lunch before Kathamarie set off for Lubbock - I was going to leave with them and then at the last minute I had to take care of a client and so I will leave before the sun pops up in the morning.

Pedln I see you posted just before I uploaded this long message - wow to think that there are some family reunions that are large enough even to make a cookbook much less a book listing all the family members - and then kids who "think??" they are related "think" amazing... sure cuts down on who you can safely date doesn't it...

Joan I like the tradition you shared that is carried out in an Irish Town - gives me an idea - I do not remember where I read recently how important symbols are to us and how various religions caught on to that idea and find that people relate batter to symbols rather than ideas. I have been cognizant of that while reading a wonderful book explaining first the difference between the Sunni and the Shia and then goes on to tell about the current Shia Revival. Seems it is the Shia who are into more symbols than the Sunni. The author explains it as those Christians, like the Catholics, who have their saintsm statues and holy places.

I can see now that our flag is such an important symbol to most of us along with the Statue of Liberty and the Capitol in DC and so the idea of having something to symbolize aspects of our lives makes more sense. What a great way then to support change in our lives by the symbols we choose to get rid of or surround ourselves with. hmmmm a lot to think about...

Pedln what kind of cookies are special Norwegian cookies? That hits me so close to my childhood memory - the big thing in our house was my mother backing cookies non stop from the feast of St. Nicholas when all the advent things came out and Christmas preparations started in earnest... She baked to fill a full size bushel basket with cookies and on Christmas eve the last cookie she baked was a butter cookie that just melted in your mouth - I remember during the war the effort to save enough stamps to get the butter for those cookies. Then on Christmas Eve afternoon we helped Mom package the cookies -

There was always blue tissue paper used that was held in place by small silver stars and that silvery tinsel rope was used to tie each small bundle that I was to deliver - there was a package for two of the neighbors, several of the Nuns at the Convent [my and my sister's teacher, the music teacher, the principle and the nun who ran the kitchen at the convent] then a bundle to the Priests at the Rectory, the Firemen's house, my piano teacher. Mom prepared and gave a small bundle to the postman and left a bundle out for the milkman who delivered during the early hours on Christmas day. We still had close to a half bushel to last over the next two weeks and share with visiting friends and family.

Since her grandmother, my great grandmother, came from Germany Mom's cookies were mostly German recipes. Thinking back how she pulled that off in that teeny tiny kitchen is beyond me...

Mary Z I love it - you do "flex" holiday - I love how you have defined what y'all are doing to accommodate your family - and what a great time of year to take a trip to Myrtle Beach - I am imagining it is not crowded at this time of year making it a nice time and the water I am imagining is very blue - seems to me I remember the Gulf being bluer in Autumn than it appears under that hot sun in summer.

Your cranberries with orange, peel and all sounds luscious - I wonder about a cranberry pie - hmmm I guess it would have just that bit of tart that makes a pie and cranberries do jell nicely - I could better imagine a cranberry nut pie though - of course here the pecan is about the only nut you ever see but there are Hazelnuts common to the Northwest and I think Walnuts are common to the North East. Let us know if you make a cranberry pie and how it turns out...

Putney - thanks for you advise - really thanks - it gives me some confidence so I do not go into reaction that causes such an awkward situation...

Éloïse I visited the Laurentian mountains years ago - it was in the autumn of the year - very French and a lovely soft country side was my impression - when you talked about the country parties of years ago - oh the memories - you almost have to wonder if the kids today have any idea how much a good time is no longer as big and racaus filled with all sorts of memories that today can only make you smile. But then there weren't as many vehicles on the road and often folks just slept over anyplace - on the floor if they had to since comfort wasn't the issue they had so much to drink they wouldn't have known a mattress from a braided rug on the floor with maybe a blanket thrown over them.

I miss the big preparation we did for Christmas time - the cleaning and the decorating and the cooking - it was all consuming but I loved it - all the stories and the excitement - these days it feels more like a list of things to do and where the holiday is nice and we enjoy each other, the days of excitement before are no longer a part of my life nor does it appear to be a part of the life for many.

I know it was this sense of abandon that is missing - not only in how folks drank but in how they prepared for most events regardless a picnic or any holiday season - there was this sense of abandon to the event that seems more controlled now.

EmmaBarb we learn something about each of us that post regularly - you and Joan P - I do not remember if she was in an orphanage but I do remember she wrestled for years the death of her mother when she was a young child and has felt the prick of knowing that the penicillin that could have saved her was reserved only for the WWII troops - And so you also lost your Mom died when you were a child - I can only imagine the pain must still be there - at least you have used that pain to make someone elses Christmas a bit less drab - and I am with your son on that Yam Casserole wow does that sound ever so lurping good.

Winsum - Prime Rib - wow - I get visions of Tudor England - I can almost smell it cooking - I never have tried Yorkshire pudding - I understand it is almost like a dumpling cooked in the drippings from the beef - is that right?

Ginger - I never heard of "turkeyville farms" - is there a big restaurant - what else is there - by now you may be on your way to the Southwest - what an exciting adventure you have carved out for yourself - sounds like you will have a great time this winter and good luck finding just the right winter apartment for yourself.

OK Pedln and JoanK said they would continue to peek in to this discussion while I am out of town - I will be back on Sunday, although I have an Open House on Sunday afternoon for a client but by Sunday night I should be back here. By then we will have all finished up the left overs and be ready to talk about other family gatherings and reunions -

Does anyone have a big family reunion with cousins and aunts and grandparents and and and - both the immediate and an extended family getting together for either a day or a few days? Let us hear about it if you have been a part of such a gathering... it is fun to hear about what folks do and I just love reading about the various foods that y'all serve...

Blessings to everyone on your Thanksgiving Day...

Oh I feel bad today. While talking to my son on the phone to confirm our Thanksgiving plans he said he wanted a turkey dinner and pumpkin pie with vanilla ice cream. I'm taking him and another person (who has no place to go) out to a restaurant where they only serve steak, chicken, or salmon. It's the only place that's open that day

I think while I'm out tomorrow I'll get a Mrs.Smith's deep dish pumpkin pie and bake it and also pick up some vanilla ice cream. We can have dessert when we get back to the house or I'll send it home with my son.

My youngest son used to come in Christmas Eve and help me decorate my big artificial tree. That tradition didn't last. Now I put up two small trees (one in the kitchen window and one in the living room) with those fiberoptics with the colored light that revolves. I also put a few ornaments on them. I also decorate the center of my dining room table with many candles and all. It's sad to put all the decorations away (usually I keep them up until New Year's Day)...the holidays are over and it's a downer (for me anyway).

Barbara St.Aubrey ~ we used to take family ski vacations in The Laurentians. So French it felt like we were in a foreign country. Bed turned down each night; logs stacked up in the fireplace all ready to light; such little niceties I'll never forget.

It was my daddy that I lost when I was 2-1/2 yr. old. He too could have been saved had they given him penicillin (he had blood poisoning and pneumonia). I have no memories of my daddy. Sometimes I wish I could at least have heard his voice. I have two pictures of him with my mom but you can't make out his face at all. His stature though looks a lot like my brother.

You know what I miss about cooking a turkey with dressing and mashed potatoes ? "Potato Filling" - the next day I mix the dressing and mashed potatoes together in a casserole and whip in an egg and put it in the oven to bake until the top gets browned (about 35-mins or so). Yummm ! Then have hot turkey sandwich with gravy and served with whole cranberry sauce. After the turkey is picked I boil what's left in a big pan and strain it to pick out all the bones. The turkey is put back in the stock to which I add chunks of potato, carrot, celery and onion. Doesn't take long to cook everything. Then lastly I add homemade dumplings. This is a favorite with my family. Talk about getting some mileage out of a turkey

I wish a "Happy Thanksgiving" to each and every one of you !
Emma

Like Emma, I get lots of mileage out of a turkey. I boil the bones and bits to make turkey broth. I usually don't make soup then, but freeze it in quart freezer bags to use through the year for soup stock and as the liquid for cooking rice, potatoes, or pasta.

It's been a few years since I've fixed a full-fledged Thanksgiving dinner, and I sure do miss the leftovers -- I love turkey soup, and your method sounds really practical, Mary. This Thanksgiving I'm bringing the salad for 20. But I usually try to fix a small turkey at least once during the year, if only for the dressing and the soup. I'm hosting a small dinner group from church in January, so will probably fix it then.

Or, I might use that opportunity to fix a ham. What do the rest of you who like ham do about fixing and storing it? Do you find it freezing as well as turkey? I want the bone -- again for soup, pea.

Barbara, the Norwegian cookies I remember are called rosettes -- made with an iron piece and deep fried? They are fragile looking and very crisp. I found some in a bakery in Mt. Horeb, Wis. (a town with Scandinavian heritage) a few years ago, We also had something called futeman -- again very crisp, sugary, fried.

I've had something similar here called Blatkuchen, although I don't think it's fried. Might this be what your mother made that melted in your mouth? SE Missouri has a strong German heritage, especially in the town of Altenberg which has wonderful cooks. Although it's hard to come by now, one used to be able to find an Altenberg woman who would make and sell Blatkuchen. Oh, wonderful treat.

pedln, I fix a country ham (salt-cured) nearly every year at Thnx or Xmas. The kids always take most of the left-overs home with them, but I do freeze some of the slices to reheat later in the year. And, since split-pea soup is a year-round staple in this household, I always save and usually freeze the bone to use in the soup when it's convenient for me to cook it.

Actually, I just got my ham yesterday to fix for Xmas this year. It's a long, involved process, so not something that I can do on the spur of the moment.

What a wonderful variety of menus and techniques we have. It's been years since I cooked a turkey -- my husband took it over using my method, which keeps it moist and flavorful. I wrap it completely in loose aluminum foil and bake it in an open pan in a slow oven, taking the foil off for the last 30-45 minutes to brown. You'd think it might taste boiled, but it doesn't -- a lovely roast flavor and always moist (I hate dry turkey). And no basting! The only problem is that you have to judge when to take the foil off.

My sister uses a completely different technique, and it also comes out excellent. There are many different techniques that work -- everyone finds one that works for them and sticks to it

Now we have all kinds of new techniques. Some friends use a barbecue (I don't understand why that works, but evidently it does). Another says he soaks the turkey overnight in brine (moist but salty?). There are probably a zillion more.

the tiny print would be impossible for me, so must look for a used hard back copy. there is one on line at the moment. But there might also be one in our local used book stores. will check.

claire

I used to have a baked ham and sauerkraut and country pork roast New Year's Day dinner. About the ham I love the fresh baked ham from the oven, then next day it's ham sandwiches, then some of it is sliced for breakfast with eggs, then any meaty portions left are made into ham-salad (with onion, celery, sweet pickle, and hard-boiled egg...a favorite with my family). Lastly the bone is used to make "white northern bean soup" (a recipe I've had a very long time).
I never freeze ham.

Received a call from my grandson this a.m. that the three of them will be here Wednesday for lunch with me (I'm looking forward to seeing them).
Emma

Looking back at the holidays when I was growing up in the 1940's, I realize that I don't remember the food at all! I'm sure it was good (in spite of rationing), but for me, Christmas and Thanksgiving were about the event - the people, the presents and the social activity, and not about the food and cooking.

My aunt was noted for being the best cook in the family, and we always went there for Christmas Day, so the food was probably more abundant and better than it was at our house, but that wasn't what interested me, so I've forgotten. The main thing I recall from the holidays was the excitement and the constant buzz of activity.

Most especially, I remember my cousin and I playing together and having hours of uninterrupted fun. When we were younger it was roller skating and outdoor games, or indoors drawing and playing paper dolls, or with whatever it was we had received as gifts. Then when we got older we would just head straight for her bedroom, and listen to pop records and talk about boys! (Our favorite subject as teenagers!) Sometimes she and I would walk into town and enjoy the decorations and the store windows. She lived a block from the ocean, so we would often walk on the beach, climb the empty lifeguard towers, wade in the surf, etc. My brother would always bring his fishing pole, and would spend all day fishing off the short pier at the bay. I don't remember anyone ever worrying about him or about us, or checking on our whereabouts.

The holidays that stand out sharpest from my childhood, were during the war years. My dad was drafted into the Navy, so it was a real thrill to have him home for Christmas! Lots of other family members were in various branches of the service, so there was a special excitement to see all the uniforms and the happiness at having the men home for a short while. They would bring their Army or Navy buddies to dinner, because so many service men didn't have the time to get home for Christmas. So there were usually extra people at the table who were not family. There was always music in the background ... someone playing the piano, or the record player was on with Christmas music. After dinner there was social dancing to the popular music of the time. I learned to dance back then, by dancing with my dad, brother, cousins and uncles. Everyone danced, including the kids and the elderly grandmas. (Probably they were younger than I am now!)

I don't remember anyone ever fighting or getting rowdy or loud or drunk. It was just a happy and exciting time for everyone. My cousins and my brother remember it the same way, so I believe that it really was, as good as it gets!

Out of all my childhood Christmases, there is one that sticks in my memory. The whole family had been sick (flu, I guess) and everyone was too sick to go out and shop. My mother told us that there would be no tree and presents this year. I thought it would be the worst Christmas ever

Then on Christmas eve, our neighbors showed up with a tree for us, and helped us decorate. My father produced a small box each for my sister and me -- charm bracelets. I'm not sure where he got them -- they were the only present we had (we were used to getting tons) But I hadn't expected anything, and I thought it was the most wonderful present I'd ever seen. Instead of being the worst Christmas, it's the one I remember most fondly.

MARILYNE: you mentioned someone always playing the piano. Did your family gather round the piano and sing, the way mine did? My mother played -- the rest of us thought our enthusiasm and loudness more than made up for the fact that none of us could carry a tune. I saw my mother wince more than once, but if she didn't agree, she never told us. What great times we had with folk songs (I knew 30 or 40 verses of Barbara Allen), the old tear-jerkers (remember "She's only a bird in a giiiiilded cage"), Gilbert and Sullivan (my sister and I competed to learn the patter songs) and of course at Christmas, Christmas carols.

Now that I'm not out and about, having them shoved down my throat all the time, I can enjoy Christmas carols again -- sung by the whatever choir accompanied by my no-longer-so-loud but-still-off-key voice.

I'm now out in Pasadena, to celebrate with a daughter and SIL and guests. We're baking pumpkin and apple pies tonight, and will do the rest tomorrow morning. It will be a fairly standard feast--turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, green beans, zucchini,cranberry sauce and relish, and the pies. It will be amiable and low-key. SIL makes a mean pie crust.

When I was little we got one present each, It was not because my father could not afford it he chose to spend his large salary on gambling. I remember one year all of us got a toy boat each. It did not matter if we were boys or girls. He got them from a fire sale. Mum reckoned he got them for absolutely nothing. ( she told us years later) Luckily we had grandparents who furnished us with Christmas stockings. They would have things like hand knitted dolly clothes, candy, little plastic moving toys from Woolworths etc. We loved our stockings. I never really thought about our poverty til I grew up. My grandparents stockings made us so very happy. I was about 13 when I realised that not everyone had the same sort of Christmas as us. It was hard because we were the poor kids in an affluent area.

The large number of pets we had made up for a lot! Often got a pet for Christmas. ( one that was a stray or an unwanted animal) The biggest present I ever got was a watch one Christmas. (Mum put it on layby at the jewellers) I only had it one year as someone stole it out my desk at school. I had put it in my desk to go and Play netball for the school against another school and we had to take off any watches or other jewellery before the game. When I got back to the classroom the watch was gone. Broke my heart. Funny how some things stick in your mind!

We raised chickens and ducks and had a vegetable garden. We always had chicken and new potatos etc for Christmas dinner. My grandmother made a Christmas pudding. Granny and Grandpa brought all the treat foods like chocolates, nuts etc and a great big Christmas cake. Most of the chickens we raised and the ducks were sold at Christmas time. We would keep one large bird for the family dinner. Chicken was a treat in those days. Now its much cheaper than any other meat. My grandparents always spent the whole of Christmas Day and New Years day with us. On New Years day we would have another big dinner. Another chicken bit the dust!

As I said I enjoyed my Christmas and never thought we were hard done by. It was only when I was a young teenager and began mixing with other kids a lot I realised everyone was not like us.

I was just reminded of the Christmas turkey at my grandmam & grandpap's house when I was with them before going to the orphanage. I have a very clear picture of grandmam chasing this turkey around the garden and then putting it's head on a tree stump, off went the head and that darn turkey ran all around the garden again with no head. Yikes, to think it was grandmam that did that, then plucked all the feathers off in scalding hot water, then cleaned, stuffed and baked it in an old iron stove heated with hot coals. I can see her poking the coals to keep that oven hot. I have no clear picture if I ever ate any of that turkey or not.
Grandmam was a vegetarian so she cooked meat for the rest of the family. She baked all her own bread and pies and cakes (of course from scratch). I couldn't wait to taste them. She also made delicious butter sugar cookies that she let me decorate with sprinkles of cinnamon and sugar, etc. She always served a pineapple/jello salad too that to this day I make every so often. Recipe: 1 pkg lemon jello; can crushed pineapple; 1 pkg Phila Cream cheese. Everything is whipped together and put in refrigerator. After it jells it ends up in layers and is really delicious as a side salad or dessert.

Emma that story reminds me of the year we had the Turkey to kill. We had made a pet of him and he followed us like a dog. Mum and us kids wept and pled for his life but dad killed him. He had to sell him as none of us would eat him! Mum refused to ever raise another Turkey. I was 6 and the Turkey stood as high as me. He was a huge bird but so gentle. Your grandma sounds like she was a wonderful woman. You must have missed her a lot. I should be thankful I was able to live with my mum and spend lots of time with my grandparents.

Carolyn

Emma we used to make an unbaked pie crust ( crushed cookies) and fill it with a similar mix as your jello layer thing. We whipped it all up together. The jello was made with only enough water to dissolve the crystals really. Then the pineapple and the cream cheese was whipped in. The top was spread with whipped cream and sprinkled with nuts after the pie was set in the refrigerator. It was yummy.

Thanksgiving when I was little , a great day ,,since there were 8 at the table to begin with and always some aunt and uncle plus to join us...We always dined on Thanksgiving Day and any special holiday the rest of the time we ate in the kitchen The movies always had a dish night once a week and my mother took me so I too would get a dish and soon we had a complete set pale cream with pink rose sprays and those were the dishes My father won a set of sterling silver one year at a Knights of Columbus annual raffle I keep thinking raffle but have no idea how it worked I know the top prize was an automobile and the silver was about 3rd Like someone said they didnt remember the food as much as the fun it was...Everyone talking and I think JOLLY is the best word to describe, My oldest brother in WWII was trained at Scott AFB nearby and often until they were sent to whatever country ( he went to India) they were needed So I often came down stairs and found the living room floor covered with all of these young service men he had invited for whatever event was going on,. I am not sure how my mother managed but it seemed she did ...

My mother loved pork roast so we often had that in lieu of turkey but whatever we had she made the best dressing with oysters,finding a piece of oyster was like finding money to me.. The mashed potatoes made with a hand masher were the fluffiest I have eaten we had a lot of jello salads ( must of been the thing) and later she would have me open all sorts of canned fruit and add nuts , cherries and bananas for dessert with slices of yellow home made cake..There would be pies but I preferred the fruit and cake.

Every holiday from my childhood was so great I was talking with my youngest brother who lives in California now the other day and we were remembering our childhood ( our 3 older brothers have been gone for a long time ) and my two remaining brothers and I have survived past the age when the older ones died Anyway we both were saying we only remember our childhood as a wonderful time..

I think my children do too.. Thanksgiving was the day we all decorated the tree after dinner,,,,and my tree now has been up since Thanksgiving 2004 I dont intend to take it down ever ...whenever the family comes for dinner ( and now there are 21 who come) we turn the lights on regardless of the month or day ,,and I use my holiday plates the Lenox ones purchased at an outlet for every family dinner because to me it is a Holiday when they are all here. we always have a great time sometimes the younger ones will dance to recorded music,,

Today I will dine parents of one of my daughters in law At my son's request I have baked two chess pies, two pecan pies and banana spice cake. I need to get them out of the freezer so I guess I had best shut up You all have stirred my memories and I thank you for sharing them...anna

the market is open today and it will be almost empty I've waited to shop for somethings since getting caught in the crush on monday.

my new diet is working folks and yu may need it after today, ask google for THE SHANGRILA DIET by Seth Roberts. see you all later, Claire

Anna, It's so good to see you here and to know you must be feeling a little better. I hope you had a wonderful outing with your family.

Claire -- what a time of the year to diet. I don't think I'll try to start any new diets, but am curious enough to look up the Shangrila Diet -- all Tibetan foods? I have just finished an old Virginia Rich mystery -- The Natucket Diet Murder Mystery -- a fun book, but you don't want to diet the way these gals did.

JoanK, I've used your foil method for roasting turkey several times. For me, it's the best and easiest way, and really guarantees a nice moist turkey.

Marilyne, after reading about your Thanksgivings as a child, I started thinking about mine, and none really stand out. There were never any other children my age -- I was always either the youngest or in the middle, with lots of older, and/or younger cousins. Except one -- and it was really after Thanksgiving. I was about seven. It was early days of WWII and all the non-war agencies had been sent from DC, including my father, so we all were sent to Chicago. That Sunday after THanksgiving, someone I didn't know came to pick me up from Sunday School because my brother was sick. That's putting it mildly. His appendix ruptured and he was hospitalized for two months. (The day after Thanksgiving he and and older cousin had finished off the turkey, and for years afterwards, my brother, who was 14 when he was ill, could not even look at turkey.) As I look back, I think those months in Chicago must have been h___ on wheels for my mother. My father's health declined, he was often hospitalized, and died in June of that year. She had no family there except my dad's sister and husband, and having just moved, no close friends. "No support group." my kids would say.

Am home now, after a lovely afternoon with a good friend and her family. Everyone brought food. All five of her children and their spouses were there, and they took this opportunity to draw names for CHristmas. This reminded me so much of what my aunts and uncles did in the summer, their get-together time, when they drew names for Christmas. (My mother came from a family of seven) Do any of you draw names?

We've just finished our Thanksgiving dinner - a traditional lasagna. There are just three of us tonight (John, Kate, and me), and lasagna is one of our family favorites. So I got one out of the freezer, and that was our dinner. Yum!

PEDLN: I grew up in Chicago. I remember Thanksgiving dinners as THE family gathering of the year. It was always my mother's family it seems. She was one of 6. One sister lived in Omaha and the rest were in Chicago so they were all there with spouses and my grandparents and the children. We had an adults' table and a kids' table. And we always had birthday cake. My brother's birthday was the 21st and mine the 26th and Thanksgiving usually fell between the birthdays. That is except for the years when Roosevelt changed Thanksgiving to the 3rd Thursday of November.

We have finished our Thanksgiving dinner too. Just the two of us and I had someone else prepare the stuffing and pumpkin pie because I need them salt-free and low fat. However, for the first time I fixed everything else. Usually I will go out and buy potatoes one place and stuffing another place. I felt very good about myself today. The turkey came out wonderfully in foil and I prepared mashed sweet potatoes and mashed white potatoes (we have different tastes) and green beans stir fried with onion and celery. Very delicious!

Marjorie, congratulations on your dinner turning out so perfect. I like mashed sweet potatoes, too. And I think I would like your green beans. I am a lousy green bean cooker, and I don't like them cooked to death, like so many do around here. Could you email me your recipe? It sounds yummy.

Someone mentioned hand mashing potatoes. I have never used anything other than an old fashioned masher for my potato. When I have mashed it with the masher I then use a big fork to finish the potato off. I like my potato with some substance but smooth. I cannot bear sloppy potatos of any sort. I sometimes mash my potato with a dollop of plain unsweetened yoghurt and mix in some finely chopped parsley and chives before I serve. No sugar added to sweet potato over here. I have a pile of kitchen aids but I prefer to use a wooden spoon to mix my cakes etc . I guess I make my cakes the same way my great grandmother did. My wrists hurt now but I like to feel my mixes especially cookie mixes. I knead all my cookie mixes so they have to be of a consistency to do this apart from the type you press into a shallow tin to slice after baking.

Carolyn

Carolyn - your comment on 'no sugar added to sweet potatoes' prompts me to ask a question. Do you know that sweet potatoes and regular potatoes (white, Irish, etc.) aren't the same thing? Sweet potatoes are orange in color and different in shape, consistency, and taste from white potatoes.

Mary yes I know about the potatos. Our sweet potatos come in two kinds, golden ( orange) or purple skinned and yellow fleshed. We call sweet potato Kumera and white potatos are just potatos.The way we eat them mostly is baked. We also will cube them and fuse them with things like bell peppers, garlic, zucchini and squash ( all cubed) and drizzle with olive oil and cook in the oven until they caramalise. (No sugar added) Then we also make kumera fries. Kumera is our name for what you call sweet potato. Oh I forgot we also make kumera fritters. ( also savoury not sweet)

Carolyn

Oh, what wonderful memories and food. I'm going to go and fix a snack.

We are going to have our Thanksgiving dinner on Friday, since my son has to work on Thanksgiving. He puts sports games on the air for a local radio station, and Thanksgiving is a big sports day.

Tomorrow he will try his hand at roasting a turkey breast, since there are just the two of us. With all the traditional sides, and sparkling cider to drink.

Thanksgiving and Christmas eve are also the only days we eat in the dining room. We have a big eat-in kitchen and that is where we eat (and live much of the time). The only problem is that the dining room table becomes the repository for a lot of stuff. It's a good thing we are forced to clear it off twice a year.

We're having pumpkin pie. But I wish I could have some of Anna's chess pie. I love it. As a Northerner, I never had it til a few years ago. But now, I could eat it any time.

I went to a church turkey dinner with all the triming and saw alot of friends so it was a good day except two of my friends had pasted in the last two week and I did not know about it so did not get to show my last respects. This morning went to walmarts for norton anti virus and installed it on my laptop and desktop so that kept me busy so I have alot to be thankfull for today and every day.

I like my sweet potatoes cut up like french fries and deep fried in a butter tasting oil, ever tried it?

Ginger

jean, I don't make chess pies, but I surely do love to eat them. Here's a link with information and recipes.

http://southernfood.about.com/cs/pierecipes/a/chesspie.htm

they sound gooooood! thanks Mary.....jean

Thanks for the recipes. Yum, yum. Interesting about the name. I always wondered where it came from.

Well, we've finished our "flex-holiday" Thanksgiving. In our house, instead of calling them "flex-holidays", we call them "moveable feasts". What a great job my son did with his first ever Thanksgiving cooking. Especially with very little sleep.

He was supposed to broadcast a game Thursday, and come home. Instead, he called and said his radio station was doing a "remote" (where the on-air people go on location, and interacts with the public) at midnight in Hagerstown, a small town in Western Maryland, at Midnight. He wasn't home until after 3 AM. Meanwhile, I was wondering what public they were interacting with at midnight in a small town?

I soon found out. The town has an outlet mall that had decided to open it's stores at Midnight to get a jump on the Friday-after Thanksgiving shopping frenzy. This was so popular that there was a twenty mile backup of cars to get into the mall, and Dan said it took them 30 minutes just to get out of the parking lot when they left. Other stores in our area opened at 5 AM and people stood in line all night to be the first to get the "bargains".

Boy, this is one holiday tradition I could do without!!

This is one holiday

Anna, your comment that finding a piece of oyster in the dressing was like finding money reminds me of the stories of rings and coins and special trinkets baked in cakes and puddings. Did any of you have those at your holiday dinners, or does that only happen in books?

JoanK, my DC daughter-in-law keeps trying and trying to figure out how to get their kitchen bigger because that's the heart of their house, where the family gathers. The last person she had look asked her why she wanted the kitchen bigger. "To have more room for the table," she answered. (It is a TIGHT squeeze). "Well," said he, "why don't you just cut down the table." Grrrr. A friend who just remodeled her kitchen told me that all she really needs is a kitchen with a small sitting room off of it, and a wrap-around porch. That would be enough house for her.

Talk about these midnight and 5 am sales. That Hagerstown Mall sounds like a mess. When did all this "Black Friday" sales and stuff start? for years I've done most of my shopping online or by checkbook, so really don't do any big "on foot" shopping. But our local newspaper has articles every year about how different families have made day-after-Thanksgiving shopping a really big deal. Mothers, daughters, DILs, sisters -- all out together, usually with a "plan." How about you -- is this part of your holiday routine?

I'm also amazed and kinda shocked by this Black Friday business! When did all this start, and what is wrong with these people who "camp out" overnight in front of a Best Buy or Wal-Mart? Why do thousands of people stand in line when they know ahead of time that there are only a small number of the lap-tops or Game-boys or whatever it is that's luring them. Police were called for crowd control in the wee hours of the morning here. Then when the stores finally opened, there was a literal STAMPEDE! Two women were hospitalized here in CA, because they were trampled! Is this new trend just a "me-first" attitude or is it some kind of all consuming greed??

JoanK - Good to hear someone else remembers playing the piano and singing at Christmas gatherings. It must hae been during the 1950's, when the living room piano began to be replaced by the TV set. Now you rarely ever see a piano in a home anymore. As a result, no one plays anymore. Back then, most of us played, even though we weren't very good - we could stumble along and read music which was good enough for a sing-a-long, I got a kick out of you remembering, "She's Only a Bird in a Gilded Cage"! The one we hammed it up on the most was, "Ahhhhh, Sweet Mystery of Life At Last I've Found You"!

Marilyne, we were thinking along the same lines tonight. I finally fished out my Christmas music from the piano bench and cabinet and sat down to play for about an hour. Except I couldn't find the Little Drummer Boy. But your mention of everyone around the piano brought memories of Thanksgivings and Easters of not too long ago. One of our Spanish teachers and her husband used to gather many together for those holidays. She was a former nun, taught in Ecuador, left her profession, but not the church, married, and bought an old farmhouse out in the country. The holiday dinners there had it all -- tons of good company and food, lots of games to play, music and singing, and finally a long walk before heading back for more food. I remember something her mother-in-law said years ago about pianos -- "My friends make a big mistake giving their pianos to their kids. They need to keep them and play them so they don't get arthritis in their fingers."

I've lived in this area for 30 years, my family scattered elsewhere for at least the last 15, but I feel truly blessed because even when they have not been here, someone has always included me in their holiday gatherings.

MARILYNE: now you've done it!! I've been hamming it up to "Sweet Mystery of Life" for the last hour. Lucky my son isn't home!!

was central to our home. everyone played and some of us sang as in gilbert and sulivan operettas, pop etc. I had one untiul my eyes changed so that I saw three horizontals for everyone. made it impossible to sight read the mozart sonatas I loved and other stuff. so I sold it and then I missed it and someone gave me a 1918 wurlitzer which used to be a player piano. I tried to have it tuned properly only it wouldn't. has the stranges sound but works for the occassional noodle. it's good to have it anyway. Imissed having a piano even though I ply guitar and used to teach it and thought it would be enough. it isn't. . . claire

it's ok for accompanying SILENT NIGHT but most of those carols have complex harmonic structures. . .exceptins halls of holly and little drummer boy.

It's hanging on the wall and my calluses are too soft but now and then I pick it up again and noodle, like the piano. the family is gone though and that's what made it fun.

claire

Claire ~ if one was to buy a guitar just for the family to play around with, what would be a good one ? My older grandson plays a folk guitar and writes his own music. But I thought I'd like to have something here at my house...something a bit smaller.

Well this Holiday is now memory - and the big one of the year is coming up - for me it was always the preparation that I love - the day itself can often be anti-climactic in comparison to the good feelings of baking, sending out cards, making and wrapping gifts, decorating, listening to music that is like the thread through every December and for me there is a collection of stories I just must read. Many are considered children's stories but for me they make this holiday.

The older I get the more I realize there just is no Currier & Ives family gathering - the pictures I have in my mind of how I would like to experience a gathering are often based on the work of Norman Rockwell, Currier & Ives, Grandma Moses, Tasha Tudor - on and on I could go naming the artists that gave us a snapshot of family harmony and good will.

Real family members move and talk and have individual opinions that are not always shared by everyone in the gathering. Remember the song - something Paper Doll - I'm gonna buy a Paper Doll that I can call my own -- A doll that other fellows cannot steal - looks like in our DNA we would prefer the pictures of life that we are offered rather than the reality of negotiating life with loved ones.

Each time we get together I learn more and more how we interpret acts from a family member to mean something we can wrap our heads around without having the background experience in which that act came from a very different point of view.

This time I learned that my daughter-in-law all these years was annoyed that when I arrived for a visit I always brought a small gift for everyone - she saw this as my looking for attention - it took my daughter to explain that while she was growing up she always remembered that when we arrived for a visit or if my parents along with brothers and sisters arrived for a visit, regardless if it was 2: in the morning - all the lights went on, everyone was up rushing to greet the arriving with shouts in the house of "they're here, they're here." And then my daughter remembered it was like Christmas as we all had a gift for each other. She remembers one visit when she received the dolls highchair that my father repaired and stained that was mine when I was a child.

I realized later and had not explained that back when I was a kid and family members did not live that far from each other, although it took about an hour or more travel time to make the visit, we still never visited my aunts or grandparents or they to us without bringing something - my Grandmother always brought a store bought cake - since there was no money often the gift was only a a bouquet of flowers from the garden or a couple of jars of just made jam - I remember once my uncle bringing paper parasols for all the little girls.

Where as my daughter-in-law's family always lived within walking distance of each other and never made any fuss over a visit - there wasn't even the idea of a hostess gift when a meal was shared.

For me it now feels strange - I often wondered why they came to visit me empty handed and would steel myself so that I did not let my feeling slighted affect the visit and relationship - I cannot ask my daughter-in-law to change but then do I change so that she does not feel I am asking for special attention? And since I was not a party to the conversation but rather heard about this difference in understanding from my daughter I need to explain to my daughter-in-law that I hope she is not offended but this is so much a part of my culture I would feel baron with the loss of preparing for a visit if I no longer brought small gifts for everyone.

In my minds eye I am trying to imagine a Tasha Tudor like painting of how that conversation could happen - because bottom line I think we are all looking for the harmony between folks and good will that getting together with others promises.

Lots of great posts for me to catch up on - I need to run and make some phone calls but I will be back later to catch up with everyone...

Barbara - i have often said to my students that i think it is a miracle that any couple stays married because no matter if you were neighbors, each family is a different culture and actually each sibling has had a different "culture" in the family, let alone the gender cultural differences.

I find it interesting that as we get older we become more understanding of people's behaviors and differences and often more interested in their behaviors and perspectives.i don't think that is peculiar to our family, my friends are having similar experiences.

My husband has an eccentric sister (of course, he is more like her than he would ever admit) and their relationship has had many frictions in the past, but in the last decade they have become better friends and are enjoying each other more than ever, so our holidays have become more fun and appreciated and less stressful for everybody...jean

Barbara, gifts seem to come in many packages, as do the givers and the receivers, conditioned by the habits and traditions of generations. How lovely that even today your daughter remembers and no doubt cherishes receiving the doll high chair you had as a child.

Often I have heard of someone receiving something that the giver had received much earlier from a family member. Years ago one of my aunts brought me a silver bowl and candleholders, saying, "Your mother and father gave us this for our wedding. Now this doesn't mean we're going to die soon. We just want you to have it now." My friend Barbara has a most unusual pair of male/female figurines and she loves to tell the story of how just before her wedding years ago, her mother received a call from an elderly couple. They had heard about the wedding, they had these figurines that Barbara's grandparents had given them years before. Would it be all right if they gave them to Barbara. They thought so much of the grandparents and they would love for her to have them.

An interesting point: two different cultures come together when two people marry. That is true even if the families have been neighbors. Each family has its own mini-culture, if you will. And often we take this for granted, as Barbara did, and don't realize that it is not shared.

This is even more a problem when people from two cultures marry. When WASPy me married my Jewish husband, it took awhile to get used to each others families. And to each others differing expectations. My family was very reserved, and didn't express emotion. Dick thought they were cold. He wasn't able to see the little signs that to me spoke loud and clear of the depth of love there. I had learned to see them early, and to me they were so obvious.

His family was always in emotional high gear, and I found that overwhelming at first. I remember once, early, they were having a long emotional conversation starting with whether someone who was leaving should take an umbrella, and ending with people sick with worry and being about to go to an early grave. I just burst into tears. Everyone looked at me in complete astonishment. "What on earth is wrong?"Finally, my MIL realized what was wrong. "That's just the way we talk" she said. "It doesn't mean anything".

I hope I am not hurting my SIL without meaning to. He wouldn't tell me, but I think he would tell my daughter, and she would tell me, or explain it to him.

From the posts it sounds like there are many of us trying to redefine family gatherings - for some of us family is so spread out across the landscape that getting together as a group is a very sometimes thing - and then to get together with grown children who have their own lives is not the same easy delight it was when they were all young children - back then we probably concerned ourselves with how to handle things when older family members were part of our lives and now here we are the older family member.

As a result of this discussion I am realizing for me there is as much value and joy in getting together with groups who share a common interest but there is still a piece of me as all of us share dreams of this wonderful joy filled harmonious family gathering especially during the holidays. This dream can be wonderful but it can lead me down the road to feeling redundant when I realize that I am no longer in charge and my family each have their own dreams.

I think it would be great to learn about how other's, who do not fit the Currier and Ives mold, bring joy to themselves and others during the holidays. I notice just such an article in Oprah's magazine that I read at my daughter-in-law's - it was about a young women who had a late in life child and how all those years she just did not fit into the family gatherings without feeling the pinch of judgment. She has taken control and in good humor has created a wonderful holiday with her friends and now small daughter that is a warm and emotional healthy response to her life.

I notice earlier posts are filled with the pride and joy in the menu and recipes that are special for this time of year - that is a special isn't it regardless how many are at the dinner table it is always fun to cook - I like to decorate the house as well - but NOT with a TREE for Christmas - I do really enjoy the bits and pieces that make the house and table look special.

I received an email with the address for sending phone cards and gifts to our service men for Christmas - that is what I think I will do this year - the soldier doesn't have to know but I will send what I would have sent to my son - it will be bitter sweat but I know it will be better than not doing anything.

Years ago when I first moved away from home I learned I had to make my own joy that no one was going to come along and do it for me - oh the Babies brought joy but then I think maybe that was because I was doing so many joyful things with and for my babies - hmmm and so the trick seems to be what joyful things we can do with and for another starts with us and will be our joy. hmmm

And so during this season of Advent I pray everyone becomes more able to create joy for others which will in turn only make each of us feel the joy of being with family, friends and those strangers who become part of our feel good cadre of consociates.

I started my readings for Advent and Christmas. I like this:

"Waiting is not passive. It involves nurturing the moment, as a mother nurtures the child that is grown in her, Zechariah, Elizabeth and Mary were very present to the moment. that is why they could hear the angel. They were alert, attentive to the voice that spoke to them and said, "Don't be afraid. something is happening to you. Pay attention."

Waiting is open-ended. Open-ended waiting is hard for us because we tend to wait for something very concrete, for something that we wish to have. Much of our waiting is filled with wishes: "I wish that I would have a job, I wish that the weather would be better, I wish that the pain would go." We are full of wishes, and our waiting easily gets entangled in those wishes. For this reason, a lot of our waiting is not open-ended. Instead, our waiting is a way of controlling the future. We want the future to go in a very specific direction, and if that does not happen we are disappointed and can even slip into despair. That is why we have such a hard time waiting: we want to do the things that will make the desired events take place. Here we can see how wishes tend to connect with fears.

But Zechariah, Elizabeth, and Mary were not filled with wishes, They were filled with hope. Hope is something very different. Hope is trusting that something will be fulfilled, but fulfilled according to the promises and not just according to our wishes. therefore, hope is always open-ended."

And so I trust this holiday season that something will happen far beyond our imagining that will bring us the community of support, celebration and affirmation that is already here among us who post on SeniorNet.

Curious Minds will be back in January 2007 - Thanks everyone for sharing in the conversation...!

Barbara - Thank you for those final thoughts. They were so beautifully written that I had tears in my eyes as I read your words. This was a good discussion, and I enjoyed participating.
To all who read this, I wish you a joyful holiday season.

This has been a great discussion, Barbara. Thanks for making it possible for us during the Thanksgiving Holiday season.

Barbara - thanks for your leadership on this CM. We recognize the time and thought that goes into each of these discussions and we appreciate your being willing to take on the task and facilitate us all throught it making it very interesting to participate......jean

Thank you very much, Barbara. I have really enjoyed this trip down memory lane. As usual, your thoughtfulness has given me much food for thought.

                Curious Minds

                        A forum for conversation on ideas and criticism
                          found in magazines, journals and reviews .

Welcome to this month's Curious Minds topic "Modern-Day Electronics."

"When I first thought of modern day electronics, I had in mind the items found in the heading: computers, cell phones, E-mail, etc. However, it would not be fair to limit the discussion to just that group.

The majority of the electronics we have to day have eased our lives or brought greater entertainment to many of us. Springing to mind is the humble (or not so humble) microwave oven and the gigantic big screen television (I still don't have one of those, not sure I would like it.) I'm confident you folks can surprise me by naming many more of these wonderful electronic devices you find so helpful.

So join in and let us know how you feel about all these magical gadgets."

LINKS.
Cell Phones and Pagers <><> Digitized Music and Sounds, Including IPods

Gadgets & Purchases Other Than Computers <><> Computer and Internet and Q&A Tips folder

Your suggestions are welcome.           Discussion Leader: Bill H

The discussion starts HERE.

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Thank you, Pat, for creating a fine heading it clearly indicates this months Curious Minds topic. And thanks Jane for providing the links in the heading.

My welcoming post in the heading asks what these magical gadgets mean for you. Well, let me start by saying what they mean to me. The computer is my window of the world. At the touch of the mouse button I can visit the Major League Baseball site, the National Football League site, one of the worlds finest encyclopedias, and, for an old guy like me, Web MD to point me in the right direction for what ails me. I can play chess with another human being that may reside in this country or any other country in the world. Truly the computer is the window of the world.

I carry a little gadget in my pocket everywhere I go. It is called a cell phone. At the touch of one of its buttons I can communicate with the ones I most need. My how the world has progressed since I was a child

Well, I explained what some of these instruments mean to me. How about you letting us know what your favorite gadget is and what it means to you.

By the way, please use the links in the heading if you have questions or problems about specific technologies. Those links will take you to discussions where most, if not all, of your electronic questions will be answered by our SeniorNet technicians.

Bill H

I will surely come in to discuss this interesting topic later Bill. Thank you for bringing it up.

Iremember when a ball point pen was high technology; one of the boys in my sixth grade class had one and he was always taunting us with it, pulling it out on the least excuse to click it, or whatever it did in those days. Fast forward

to my house. Two yearse before I retired I bought a 35-inch TV (and replaced my VCR with a DVD player), cause I couldn't see the old one from accross the room. My MAC computer was upgraded, also, because Railroad Tycoon and Sim City were really limping when I tried to play them. The next Chritmas was a good time to get a digital camera. I gave my son a GPS device because I knew he'd like to start geocaching. (This sport began here in Oregon but was immensely popular where we lived then in Silicon Valley.) Somewhere along the line the cell phone became my constant companion. Last year was the year of the Windows laptop. My car has at least one computer, my land-line phone can accompany me to the bathroom if necessary, my boombox has digital tuning and volume control, my iPod can hold 1000 songs or a whole audio book. All these wonders seem ordinary, even necessary, to me today. How about you?

This is an interesting topic. I like your comment about ball point pens, MrsSherlock.

Computer guru Alan Kay was SeniorNet's keynote speaker at our first national conference in 1988. He said during his talk that "Technology is anything that wasn't around when you were born."

Alan Kay is one of the fathers of the idea of object-oriented programming and was one of the contributors to ideas that lead to the Apple Macintosh computer.

Hi Bill, Thanks for starting this interesting discussion. My husband and I were in the computer systems design business, so I have used computers since the days before laptops existed. However, I did not have a microwave oven until I moved to CA two years ago. My daughter gave me a portable GPS as a Christmas present soon after I moved because I was always getting lost driving to all those unfamiliar places. It was a wonderful gift and a great help. Another gift I love is my electronic keyboard. I left my piano on the East Coast since it cost too much to move, but the keyboard is easy to take anywhere.

I'm looking forward to hearing about everyone's favorites, and also their gripes about technology.

Marcie

"Technology is anything that wasn't around when you were born." 

For me that is just about everything. I remember the old black upright phone (no dial) had to speak to the operator for a connection. Sometimes on the party lines you could listen to the conversation. Bad!!

Horselover, I think I'd still get lost even using the GPS.

Mrs Sherlock. I wish those digital cameras were around when I studied photography. What a help they would have been. The computer even allow for setting up a slide show, doing away with the roll up screen and projector. How great. However, now I don't bother with photography much anymore.

Eloise, good to see you here. I'm eager to hear your experience with the new gadgets.

Bill H

I always told my kids and my students that the library was the greatest invention of all time, that you could find out anything you wanted to know FOR FREE! Well, i still love, love, love the library, but now it is the computer i go to - and much more often that i would go to the library - to find out "the answer," a clarification, to check to see if i really knew what i was talking about, if i remembered that fact correctly, etc. etc.

I remember saying when the cd player came out that i was only going to buy one if they promised me that they weren't coming out w/ someting to replace that in a few years! WEll, that quickly changed, now somthing new comes out every year and i slowly come to own something new. Yes, we bought our dgt a GPS system for C-mas, she runs all over the state in her job and is a very good map reader, but we tho't punching in a destination was safer than trying to read a map while driving........

Yes, i have a digital camera and love sending and getting pics .......Yes, we have easypass in the car......yes, i love the simplicity of communicating w/ my friends and family.......especially being in easy touch w/ some old high school chums......Yes, we have a dvd recorder, altho i haven't figured out yet how to record one channel and watch another.

My biggest complaint of new technology is that they are way more complicated than i need, they give me 20 things i will never use - from the computer to the dvd recorder......why can't they sell some technics that do what 90% of us want it to do and not the 100 things that 2% of use are interested in?

Great topic.........jean

She is a very popular mystery write but my daughter who just bought one says that it was written in the nineties and people didn't even have cell phones which makes it outdated already.

I love mine use it for almost everything although I have to have the land line for LIFE ALERT and 911. On the Cingular cell I get 900 minutes a month with roll over of what I don't use. . .currently I have over 2300 minutes for anything in the USA. It has a better sound as well and it's a Nokia, one of their first ones. The moterola they tried to give me was too small with tiny buttons and a difficult navigation system. it had a digital camera but I've got one of those. . .the first Sony Mavica 73, still working for me as a scanner also. my old scanner became obsolete with my new Macs.

the thing that bothers me is that my old tapes are probably obsolete too as is my old TV but I eed it for the tapes even though it won't let me play both tapes and dvd/s to say nothing of CD's. My computer does that. sheesh. . .an outmoded expression of frustration. . . Claire

Great topic!

Marcie - I love the quote about Technology being anything that wasn't around when you were born. John's grandfather was born in the 1880s and died at age 96. He said that the only things that were around when he was born were the telegraph and the train. Literally, all the other "technology" of the 20th century, he remembered having seen for the first time. Amazing!

I remember getting our first television - I was in high school (about 1951). That's the first new invention I remember getting in our family. We had always (in my life) had electricity, running water and indoor plumbing, telephone, radio, car, washing machine (ringer and filled from the sink faucet), gas stove, etc.

But now, we do love our computer, GPS & map program on the laptop, CD player, digital camera, DVD player, microwave, self-defrost fridge & freezer, all the wonderful kitchen appliances, permapress clothes.

And the new things do just keep on coming - witness the iPhone.

are building houses out of concrete and gypsum. claire

whole house machine

Like you Jean - the Library was "it" and now with the Internet I stop to look something up at the drop of a hat. Order books, clothes, shoes and hiking gear online - and I have not been to the office except twice the entire year since everything is online.

You would think I would have my cell on my ear all the time but I don't - if I am with clients I think it is rude to take their time to help someone else - often when I am driving I find my concentration is different than when I chat with folks in the car and if the traffic is heavy or there is unusual weather I ignore the rings and pick up the messages when it is convenient. I also do not like being available 24/7 - I need down time and I have learned to take it by leaving the cell in my vehicle.

The feature on my landline that I really like is when it rings it calls out the number that is trying to reach me. I've been able to avoid many a call for donations etc. - I have a devise to attach to my head when I make a lot of calls that keeps my hand from going numb when I hold a phone to my ear for a long time.

I am amazed at how all the youth are plugged in with earphones listening all the time to their music of choice. We have arranged our environment to fit our individual body comfort as we adjust the air temp - clean the air with filters or adjust the air with scent - we can communicate with a push of a button and now we can block out the sounds or the earth and people around us controlling who or what we hear to our own bubble of auditory sensation.

I must say where I do not have an Ipod I do like my sterio sound system and often fill my home with the music I enjoy - but once out of the house I prefer to hear all that is going on around me.

Which brings me to a pet peeve - the TV in a vehicle - I still remember how lonely the long trips with grandboys as they were glued into the TV rather than scanning the landscape out the window with a counting game or constant observation of what we passed. I missed the wonderful interpretations of raindrops on telephone wires after the sun came out described as diamonds and counting the number of yellow Volkswagons between Austin and Philidelphia and realizing counting 18 wheelers east of the Mississippi was too many too fast.

Seldom use my digital camera - prefer my old canon because of the various lens' I have collected - but that is high on my list to get a digital that takes the lens' I have collected.

I've resisted getting a Blackberry because I am forever dropping my lockbox key which is an electronic devise that can be incorporated into a Blackberry - I sure do not want to be dropping it - what I do want is a cell phone that has my schedule on it - up till now the only one that had that feature required I pay the additional $40 to be hooked up to the Internet through my cell - I may still go that way but what I want to do is finally brake down and get a small laptop to keep in the car now that most of Austin is a free zone and then keep the lockbox along with the new security devise we have that gives us a new number everytime we go into the MLS.

I sware I think our clothes should be a network of chips and electronic boards - with the new soft battery pads that are energized by the sun to use when you are backpacking it is not so far fetched to have a shirt made of the same material with buttons on the front to activate whatever service we need.

I still feel all these devises are removing me from the fauna, flora, insects, animals, even the sky that we knew so intimately and now we adjust to our comfort.

Ah, yes - air conditioning - certainly one of my personal favorites. None of the huge growth in the southern states would've happened without air conditioning.

Barbara, I have a Canon digital camera (the Rebel), with interchangeable lenses. I replaced a Nikon film camera, and sadly left my lenses for that one behind. I wanted to go digital, and I liked the feel of the Canon best - it felt more like my old Nikon. I do have two lenses for the Canon - and love it.

I love the idea of a whole community being a wireless zone. My cousin's town of Edinburg, TX, is close to doing it. And our much larger city of Chattanooga, has talked about it - nothing concrete yet, though.

My mother had her first microwave in 1947. She had a radio/television food show. One of her sponsors, Tappan, gave her a microwave to use, and write/concoct recipes that could be cooked in it. It was a large thing and took up a former broomcloset (36" wide and 60" tall).

Television crews weren't very portable, then, but they came to the house once a week for that show.

PBS-TV has the show "22nd Century" on tonight @ 8:00 p.m. in this area. Check your local TV listing. Should be interesting.

It's interesting to read how much electronics we use, I don't have the latest gadgets but I am interested in Ipods which seems to be complicated to download or the latest Apple gadget, the IPhone. The only think is it is so small.... I wonder if I will need a magnifying glass just to read what it says. I love the Dick Tracy mention, I remember thinking at the time that it was absurd that someone could talk on the phone through a wrist watch.

But it's like the book Eighty Days Around the World by Jules Verne, a book written in 1850, it was a fantasy book for children. Today we can do it in a couple of days. Technology makes our life easier and more fun too I think.

But it is creating inegality also in the sense that people who are not computer literate are at a disadvantage and the gap between the two is widening. Even if it is available around the world, not everybody can afford it. 20 years ago people who didn't want to learn the computer in offices lost their jobs and I could see that it would become a necessity and even if I was going to retire soon I made sure I learned how to use this "machine" to keep up with the times and not be left behind.

Barbara, I turned off my cell phone ring because I don't want to handle city traffic while talking on the phone, but I must say it gives me confidence that if I am stuck somewhere I can always get help and I don't have to get out of the car to call someone in an emergency. It's a security that my kids appreciate me to have.

Twice now my large family who are spread out far and wide organized a one week gathering on the Internet for Christmas Holidays and it was so much easier to do that way. It brings families closer together who are spread out so far from each other, at least we can 'talk' online.

here's a link to the PBS show that EmmaBarb has mentioned.

22nd Century PBS

Thanks for mentioning that PBS program, EmmaBarb, and for providing the link, Pat. It sounds fascinating.

Here is some information from that web site: http://www.pbs.org/22ndcentury/

The program is one of three science pilots airing on PBS in January; only one pilot will move forward to become a series. Watch online or on-air and then tell us what you think of the program using the feedback form below [on that site].

"In the premiere episode, guests arrive from the future, past and present to guide you through a quirky tour of the “World Wide Mind,” an intriguing theory that proposes that in the future our brains will be wired up so that we can communicate with the world effortlessly and instantly.

Science fantasy or futuristic nightmare? Watch the show and decide for yourself!"

If you are unable to watch the program on TV, you can see it on your computer by clicking a link below "Watch the Show." You can see the program in Quicktime or Windows Media Player.

That show should fit in with this topic quite well.

This brings up a gripe of mine. I have some lovely programs on my DVR that I would like to keep but I don't know how. The DVR has a limit on how much it can store and approx 50% is filled with these "keepers" so it will be less and less useful as it fills up with things I can't delete. How can I preserve things which I caputre on my DVR? I have both MAC and Windows computers. Any ideas? BTW, I do watch these more than once.

Here are the notes I made earlier today when thinking about this fascinating subject:

I put off/fought most electronic advances, especially answering machines; however, 30+ yrs. later, wouldn't want to be without one!

Have only owned a CORDLESS telephone for the past 6-8 (?)years. How did I survive w/o such a handy device before that???

I didn't own a computer until the early 90s and only then because two dear friends were updating theirs and kindly offered me their old one. That monitor screen measured just 11" diagonally.

In 2003 I bought a customized unit, locally, that included a 17" monitor. (What a marvelous difference!) Last year I upgraded to a 19" flat-screen monitor.

I held off buying a microwave until the early 80s (don't know why) but now would be "lost" without one when it comes to steaming veggies, re-heating leftovers and/or my 2-3 cups of coffee, most days.

I did get a VCR fairly early on 'cause I didn't want to have to choose between Masterpiece Theatre and the OSCAR AWARDS, etc.

When senior movie matinee prices swooped up to $7.50 in the late 90s, Idecided that was too much to pay, what with disappointing movies, plus the annoyance of cell phones going off, people chatting away during the movie (my "shushing" them seldom made a difference.

A fond memory: When growing up in Detroit, we went to the movies most Saturdays and saw the "works" -- cartoons, a serial, trailers and a double-feature. Later, living on my own, I'd meet my mother at one of the major downtown hotels where we'd have breakfast while scheduling 3-4 movies; many features began as early as 11:00 a.m. We'd pick two double-features or a "single" if we couldn't find a second double-feature to our liking. Our schedule had to allow for a light lunch in between, preferably at the J.L. Hudson department store. Aa-hh, the sweet memories of those times w/my kid brother and then dear Mom...

So I digressed a bit (!) Now, I'm back to tell how I came to buy a DVD in the spring of 2005: NETFLIX came into my life!

It's been a lovely relationship to date. Thankfully, their software program is a gold-mine of information and super organized, allowing for a feast of "offerings" -- what w/foreign movies, documentaries, TV shows (am loving the Dick Cavett releases), with recent titles that, more often, are available nearer three months on a DVD rather than six months as was the case a year or so ago.

More eTronics: When I bought my second TV I went from a 19" to a 27" and was amazed at the difference. It lasted at least 15 years, then "died" on me during the baseball playoffs of November 2001. (I arranged to have another 27" Zenith model delivered the next day and thus didn't miss any of the games. (I find the 27" sufficient and don't yearn for a plasma unit.)

I enjoy the relatively minimal space that CDs and DVDs require.

Last July I invested in a laptop: An IBM Model R50 ThinkPad as a wireless back-up for any blackouts and/or earthquakes, having gone from 'dial-up' to DSL in August 2005.

WOW! The blessings of the Internet (the curse of SPAM!). Zillions of page of research available to us (augmenting that of our precious libraries) plus "bonuses" like the opportunity to become a member of an on-line reading group in January 2004. This has led to approximately 29 books that I probably would not have otherwise read, while the ensuing friendships with the "core four" have brought me some new insights, broadened my reading scope and brought more laughter into my life.

Overall, the "E's" have it: eMail, eBanking, eBay, eShopping--and then there is Steve Jobs' and APPLE, INC w/there latest eChild...too much to take in!

Ain't life grand, and stimulating and worthwhile and full of blessings???

Hooray, 22nd Century is going to be shown on our PBS station tonight!

Like Zane, we didn't get a cordless phone until about 5 years ago or even a hand-held shower attachment until our daughter had a badly broken ankle and came here for some TLC during her rehab.

Sometimes, we do need to be pushed kicking and screaming. John definitely didn't want a cell phone - I just went and got him one. He still won't keep it turned on most of the time, but does at least carry it with him, and even uses it occasionally.

My 87-year-old aunt has adamantly refused to consider getting a computer. For Xmas, her son got her a new gadget that receives e-mails like a printer. It looks like a printer, and only receives. He has it set up to download her e-mail three times a day, and set so that only approved senders will be accepted (so she doesn't get a ton of spam printed out). It will even print photos. She is in HEAVEN!!!! We're hoping if we keep real quiet, she'll consent to at least learn to use the computers in her apartment complex to reply to some of her e-mail.

Barbara - many inventions have removed us not only from all the natural things you have mentioned but from other human beings. Just think of a small list: when people moved from the buggy to the car, there was likely less acknowledgement of the people in vehicles who were passing them on the road; tv kept us inside the house in the evening instead of sitting on our porches speaking w/ people who were walking by; air conditioners made that even worse; going to the internet instead of to the library to find answers isolates us again; listening to ipods or cd players keeps us from being aware of people around us ------ ON THE OTHER HAND, people having conversations on their cell phones in public insist that ALL OF US listen to those conversations ------that's my pet peeve! My family may have to come get me out of jail or from the hospital at some point in the future because i have been known to tell people that everybody in the store is not interested in hearing - what should be - their private conversation. ...... what is it that makes people talk even louder than normal conversation when they are on their cell phones???? i just don't get it.......jean

Pat, I didn't know they had microwave ovens back in 1947! I bought my first one just 2-years ago. Bought a microwave cook book along with it. So many things you can do with it.

Eloise, like you I carry my c-phone with me all the time when in the car. However, I keep it turned off. I bring it with me because, as you said, I can get help if I need it. I liked that about a family gathering on the internet. I wonder how many others do it?

Pat and Marcie, thank you for the heads up on the PBS. The show brings to mind the movie "The Time.Machine."

Zelda, beautiful post. I loved those Saturday matinees , especially Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers. Little did I dream that we would be doing space exploration in our life time.

Along with my answering machine, I also have Caller ID, and Call intercept which, I think, are two of the great electronic devices of our time.

Mary Z, I believe most older folks put off buying a computer because they are afraid of them. I didn't get mine till about 8-years ago. Now I couldn't be without one.

Mabel, like all good things , as long as there are rude people, the C-phone can be a source of annoyance, but the good it does offsets the rudeness.

Bill H

Someone mentioned iPods being complicated to load. I just got one for Christmas and discovered that once I got the hang of it it's very easy. I'm happy to share whatever I can to help.

Bill H, we didn't get a computer until 1998, but not because of fear. My husband was an electrical engineer and worked with computer hardware at work until he retired. And he definitely didn't want one at home. I finally announced that I was going to get one whether he ever wanted to touch it or not. (Much cheering from our children!) Of course, he couldn't stay away - and we now have MY laptop in the living room, and HIS desktop in the studio.

We watched the PBS program, 22ndCentury, tonight, and I've already sent in our comments. The content was interesting, but we HATED the visual look of the program. The hokey angles and stupid partial-face close-ups were most annoying, and mostly we listened to the content, but just didn't look at it. We would not continue to watch such a program with that "look". And that's what I told them.

And I loved it that I had my computer to give them an instant opinion.

I just watched the 22nd century on PBS, how absolutely incredible. A World Wide Mind??? Using electrodes implanted into the brain, we could get answers for any question immediately, just like using Google except we wouldn't type it in because as soon as we would think about it, the answer would just appear in the mind. Apparently this technology would improve the memory tremendously. Imagine what that would do.

One thing I would be afraid of is that if everybody had a WWM device implanted, we would all be like clones!!! all behaving and feeling the same way. What if the implant made people into some kind of a monster, controlling everybody and everything. Instead of a kind and generous person, we would have a World Wide Power tripper. And what about morality in all this? or would there be no need for it. Would a WWM device make robots out of people, programmed by SOMEONE doing their bidding?

This program was about CYBORG and according to Wikipedia "A cyborg is a cybernetic organism which adds to or enhances its abilities by using technology."

Right now, there is a device for teaching speech to someone who has lost it because of a trauma, there are cochlear implants for hearing loss, there are robotic arm and legs and heart pacers.

Will they find a device for stopping the ageing process I wonder?

Some technologies you may not have thought of: Permanent Press fabrics--I never iron clothes the way my mom did.

The chip implanted in our cat's ear--what a relief knowing that if she gets lost, there's an excellent chance she will be returned.

Test tube babies--controversial at first, but now a wonderful (if expensive) option for many women who have difficulty conceiving.

All those wonderful improvements to the operation and safety of your car--power steering, non-skid brakes, all-wheel drive, air bags.

Not all technology is electronic gadgets.

girls beating up on another girl and taping it for publication and celebraty status. what will they do next. there isn't a kinder gentler world out there and communication will just make it more violent. people will be afraid to think. . .what if each person at seniornet knew what I really think of them while I'm reading their posts???hmmmm???

MaryZ ~ I didn't like the visual effects either of the PBS program, 22ndCentury, especially when they had only still pictures inserted and the person's voice-over. I've seen better presentations.

However, the concept is interesting of implanting a "memory chip" to give you more memory (I have a terrible memory these days and would like to be able to remember more of what I read).
Medical technology is amazing but not advancing fast enough (in my opinion). Where's the cure for the common cold ? Something that's been around for such a very long time. Even some forms of cancer cures are not advancing fast enough.

but he believed that there would be an electronic repair for his broken spinal cord. I can see it coming. . . Claire

I only saw bits of it but I was fascinated with the show on PBS that showed how they saw brain activity in someone they assumed was in a coma and other patients with severe immobility they planted a chip so the patient was able, with their limited area of working brain, to choose letters by thinking of them and write out words on a screen. Also a deaf person with the planting of a chip and added software in an ear piece could hear.

Here it is 3: in the morning and I am afraid to go to bed - last night I just got into bed at about 11: and the electricity went - didn't really sleep although I was warm in bed - about 5: someone from the city was shining a very bright flashlight into the windows all over the house - to see if I was OK - I got up and waved out the window - there are so many older folks who live in this area and the electric department has a list of those houses and they were checking up on us while they were in the area to fix the lines that were broken -

Then the electricity came on about 9: - I immediately got the heat up to 73 - thank goodness because a bit after 9:30 it went out again and did not come on till nearly 5: this evening - it was so overcast and I had the drapes pulled on the big windows to help keep out the cold, so the only way I could even read was to sit at the breakfast room table - but it was cold coming from those windows.

A long nap again today and then about 2: it was too cold so I built a fire in the fireplace - well the logs were not out when the heat came on after 4:30 and of course the heat pulled all the smoke through the house - so I have been battling the smokiness and fire smell all evening with sprays and changing filters - my eyes are still watering - I will be so glad with this is over - even if over means this horrendous rain that is coming up from Mexico - I know all I am doing is complaining - but I am miserable and out of sorts and tense hoping the electricity does not go again because the ice is thick and the sleet is still falling.

Looks like I have one rather large limb from one of the Oaks that will have to be cut off and it looks like I will loose most of the Laurel which is split and bowed to the ground - some branches resting on the roof but I think the roof is keeping them from braking.

The poor deer are huddled under the Nandina bushes - I poured some hot water in the small tank I have out there for them but it froze up in about an hour and they never did get any of it to drink - they are as confused as the kids are gleeful since the kids only get to play in this kind of weather every 5 or 6 years. They said it was 8 years since the last time it stayed on the ground for more than a couple of hours - this has been two full days with no let up - supposed to warm up and roads will open late tomorrow morning.

Barbara St. Aubrey ~ that sounds just awful. Hang in there.

This storm really has been awful - and bringing icy weather to areas that are unaccustomed to dealing with it. I hope it gets back to "normal" (whatever THAT is) soon.

I had forgotten to mention permanent press. I haven't ironed a garment since it came on the market.

I've said this before, but John always says that the transistor is the greatest invention/advance in technology in modern times. And I can't really disagree - it has certainly made possible all the rest of these electronic goodies that we enjoy today. But my personal choice is the birth control pill - for obvious reasons.

I bot a full length down coat when I thought I might be moving to Canada and wore it for the first time Tuesday evening when I went out to bring in the the trash container. It was very light and super warm so I kept it o and was really warm for the first time in ages. The thermometer says it's in the sixties during the day or perhaps the fifties which sounds warm to many of you but I'm not used to it or maybe just old circulation. anyhow that warm thing over my knees in the recliner was nice to have too.

Barbara do you have a warm coat in your closet? wear it. I hope it's light and comfortable like mine. . .Claire

sorry to get us off the subject - I did finally take some excedrine which allowed me to relax and fall asleep - things are ssslloooowwwllyy warming up - still not above freezing but it is in the low 30s. The roads were cleared and sanded again early this morning and where the flyovers all over town are still ice and closed the rest of the roads are packed with vehicles getting back to work.

I have never seen ice so thick on all my trees and bushes - the icicles off my roof are a minimum of 3 feet long - There is a different feel in the air so that you can tell the worst is over -

Oh yes winsom, the various fleece and the Capilene material used for vests and jackets is so lightweight and so warm. I've been wearing my hiking clothes for just that reason - but I will not walk around the house with a face mask on or with gloves and if I sit my pants are not as warm on my thighs so a blanket is needed - ugh it makes me feel so constricted.

When I think back to the various machines that have improved my life the one that was high on my list was the dishwasher and washing machine that has a spin - the dryer was OK but I liked and still will at times hang clothes out on the line - but when I think of all those clothes and sheets I had to run through a ringer and how long it took me to get the kitchen straightened up in the morning - I always felt like I could tackle the world once my kitchen was cleaned up.

Its days like this that I am thankful for whole house heating systems and in summer when the temps are over 100 I am thankful for the AC - I remember when it was not worth the effort to light the front room stove and everyone lived in the kitchen where the heat from the cook stove heated the entire room and we went to bed wearing a hat during a cold spell - then upon waking making that run into the kitchen knowing you had to stop off in the cold tile floor bathroom before you got to the warm kitchen where our school clothes were laid out over the back of a chair.

And like the rest of you I find having the cell during travel and emergencies really keeps anxiety from setting in. When the electricity went out I was able to notify the city and pass some tome with a call to my son and daughter as well as my friends - I missed the use of the Internet far more than I missed TV. The only time I ever listen to a radio is when I am driving so that was not missed at all.

I remember as a kid my mother had the radio on during the morning hours and ALWAYS listened to Mary Margaret McBride - she was never into the 'soaps' - she sometimes had them on - but kept on working rather than stopping with a cup of coffee to listen as she did for various interviews during the Mary Margaret McBride show.

Interesting that the actual soaps we used back then were not filled with carcinogens and I am getting back to using the old products - all the shampoos, toothpaste and most soaps and detergents have this chemical in them either Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS) or Sulfuric acid monododecyl ester sodium salt which dissolves oil and grease is a carcinogenic. I am back to finding soaps that do not use coconut oil or palm oil which also are a culprit. I am using Baking Soda and Washing Soda with Borax and Vinegar again to clean most of my clothes also replacing the vinegar with lemon juice as a shampoo -

I grab a couple of bars of yellow soap when ever I see it for sale and cut them in half adding a half of bar to a gallon of hot water that had in it disolved two cups of Washing Soda and 2 cups of Borax as my clothes cleaning soap. Even found some Castile soap last fall - not finding any Ivory soap but that was another free of chemicals - and so not electronic but these older products free of certain chemicals are healthier than the oil based cleaning products of today.

And even though there are wonderful advancements made in the medical field for everyday care I have been using herbs for over 15 years now and as my doctor noted last year I keep getting healthier as time goes on. And so knowing the ways of the past to me is not such a bad idea and then having the ability to combine the past with the present and future is the balance that makes it all a wonderment.

This bout with the weather made me aware of how dependent I have become on electricity - I need to do something about that - I need to have available some basics dependency available to me using solar or wind. At a minimum I need to get a glass screen back for my fireplace - years ago when it was used more often I had a glass screen - found this lovely wrought iron that was more decorative where as with a glass screen I could have kept all the fire smoke and smell in the fireplace once the heat came on - Probably it would not be an issue for another 5 years but it is a comfort to know you have the ability to make yourself more comfortable with the electricity goes off in winter.

This warm-up is so slow that it is funny looking out and seeing the dance the light weight branches are doing as little by little they become free of their coat of ice. Well I am off to make another pot of coffee - oh how I love my fresh coffee...

Barbara - your story reminds me of another piece to tech we might not think about - our gas stove in the living room....it has helped us out a couple times when our oil furnace has been on the fritz - always on the coldest day of the year.....and it has provided some light when our electricity has gone out......and it's just a great sublimental heat source on slighty cold days when we haven't wanted to heat the whole house w/ the furnace....love it.....

I have loved the camcorder.....having the video when our dgt got married gave a much better picture of the event than just the still pictures, and watching the antics of our grandson as he grows has been priceless...........jean

and I do love having my own coffee grinder. . .Claire

The presentation method ( sounds and wierd graphics) caused me to loose interest.. Genuine info was lost ... Result was after it was over (non too soon) I don't think I learned anything of interest..

Barbara, I can understand exactly how you feel. I remember an ice storm on Long Island, before I moved to CA, when the electricity was off for a week. It was terrible! We tried to cope for a while, but finally went to a hotel in NYC. Electricity is a technology I cannot do without, although I realize people did live without it for years. Makes me feel like a wimp.

I'd also like to mention the Hubble telescope which has brought us so much important information about our universe.

rockfl - We felt the same way, as I said earlier. John said it was because the program was not directed at folks our age, but at the much younger (20-somethings), who probably weren't watch it anyway.

the possibility of in plants for people who are paralyzed was interesting. it's the kind of thing Christopher reeve was looking forward to having for himself if he survived.

I am 65 and can remember when electronic gadgets that we now take for granted did not exist...like the touch tone phone...we only had the old dial phone, the television...we only had radio and some of the happiest times I can remember were spent with my ear to the radio listening to the old radio programs and using my imagination, the microwave...we only had a gas stove and oven that was sometimes used to heat the house on cold winter days or nites, I like some of the newer electronic gadgets like the computer which has revolutionized research...but some like the i-pod I don't know anything about...I have a stereo system with a turn table to play my collection of 33 LP vinyl records, a cassette tape deck, and a CD player...but i-pod and other such related things I have no knowledge of, and I don't really consider myself that old...but I guess I am... but it doesn't really bother me. And I am totally against cell phones and pagers...I had to wear a pager for forty years because I was "on call" to the hospital, but now I don't and I don't miss it. And it seems as tho everywhere you look people have cell phones stuck to their ears even when the folks they are talking to are just across the room...doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I guess I am just an old fart......

Ray Juliano

I've got fourteen years on you and I love my gadgets, the microwave oven has almost completely taken the place of a regular one, my Mr. Coffee makes my coffee if I give it the stuff. I don't have to stand over it and feed the filter in it's carafe my car starts without having to warm it up because the carburetor is computer driven my cell has a great directory. I barely know my kids phone numbers. . this computer gives me access to you and everyone else in the world . . . almost. my cousins are hold outs. .no emails for them so no pictures either.

I'll be 79 in March and am looking forward to many more marvels in the new NANO world that is opening up for us to say nothing of robots. You're really missing out on all the excitement. mindset is unfortunate in this day and age. you could get lost without global positioning Sattelight in your car..

a translater plug in to cell phones that will translate voice from one language to another in real time. -- like in star trek. . .why not we have it happening already in written text and we record speech digitally and in real time so what if we could also peak to anyone in the world in their own language while speaking in ours. absolutely necessary for intelligence purposes . . .Claire

in the "nano world" extremely small, a plugin like that could be implanted under the skin with a hypo needle and everyone could have it without having to carry anything extraneous around. it would really create a one world communication system. . .Claire

The downside would be if implanted with GPS an invasive govt. could always find you, but so could you spouse and children.

Hi, you-all. Judging from the post numbers in the 500's, this subject must have been running a few months. The PBS series beginning with the WIRED presentation sent me over here to this category on Senior Net. Don't know if I can "fit in" or not, but will try.

I'm a long-time watcher of PBS as, in my opinion, the only real television left. Remember when television first came out, in the 1950's? It was primitive by comparison with today, but its commercials were very carefully done to keep the viewer tuned in. The content was experimental, and alive, and interesting - you'd often see bloopers and people being their real selves. Today the commercials are 15 minutes out of every hour and all too often become good reason to flip the channel "anywhere else" to try to get away from them... screeching voices, crappy subjects, buy buy buy free free free that always turns out to have a stinger hidden in the bait. PBS is an island in the stormy ocean. And to top it all off here comes HDTV and beautiful wide-screen --but "where's the beef?" to quote from one of those rare old commercials that were entertaining as well as on the mark-- the fare is the same old commercial-ridden programming we had 10, 15, 30 years ago! If it weren't for the VHS player, the DVD with movies that sometimes are preceded by reviews you might not want to be bothered with, we might as well take a walk.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic. Actually, I'm enthused about how promising the new wave of stuff is. When the promises begin to bear fruit I can see a bright sunshine ahead for viewers -

Let's go back to 1929 a moment, when I was a pre'teen-ager. On my crystal set radio I heard about an up-coming demonstration --of all things, TELEVISION! You didn't have the telly until 1950? On the second floor of Davidson's Department Store in Des Moines Iowa, a special setup was made, with a tiny stage at one end of the building and a huge collection of technical stuff at the other. The latter was the "transmitting station." Central to the stage was a huge disk about five feet in diameter, with a spiral of holes in the outer periphery, spinning so fast you could hear the air swishing from it.. The beginning of the spiral was about one inch from the ending of the spiral -- that's important, because at the other end of the building there was the twin of this "transmitting disk." There were bright "kleig" lights shining on a single actor, who was dressed in clown suit. I walked from the transmitting stage end to the receiver end.

At the viewer, the "picture" was just over one inch square! It did have a miracle moving there -- a perfect replica of that clown at the other end of the building! Here was television at its birth. More, later.

BOYD: Welcome. Curious Minds is one discussion that is a little different than most. Here there is a topic change every month and the topic is discussed from the 16th of the month until the end of the month when possible. This particular topic has had 46 posts.

You made me remember the first television set I saw. It was before 1950 because I was in grade school. My father was a wholesaler for Crosley at that time and they made a simple television set. That is how we got it. It couldn't have been 1950 because by then I was in college and I remember being much younger sitting at the dining room table watching the television and doing my homework at the same time.

I would have liked to see the demonstration you saw this new miracle of television.

even subscribed channels while they lack commercials keep showing the same old movies over and over. It involves a search even of HBO which makes it's own to find aything I haveen't seen and I'm ten years youngr than you are. pretty discouraging use of a fine mediium. . .Claire

What's the difference between an IPod and MP3 device, in simple terms?

HappyBill, the IPod is a type of mp3 player. In addition to playing MP3 audio files, the iPod plays AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) files.

ACC was developed by Dolby Labs as part of the MPEG-4 audio/video standard. While technically advanced as a compression algorithm, AAC's principle difference from MP3 is its ability to support Digital Rights Management (DRM). By encoding legally purchased songs with digital signatures, it increases the difficulty of sharing them inappropriately.

So IPod is a newer device than the original MP3? Does it have better sound quality, or about the same? Is it smaller or more portable? I see a lot of IPods at the gym, some strapped to arms and some in pockets. Some playing music, some playing lectures on various topics.

You wrote a wonderful memorial to Karen (Lady Z), with many references to her writings and accomplishments. Thank you. Could you show the URL where members can see it?

Marjorie - You are quite right about TV before 1950. There were a few efforts to bring it out commercially prior to the 1941 Pearl Harbor disaster, but that event put a heavy hand on civilian goods until 1945. Electronic research for the war effort produced many "breakthroughs" applicable to radio and television and the black/white television market made rapid expansion. The big disc was called the Nipkow Disc, but never had a chance over the war developments such as radar - that started the big explosion in TV with the round tubes as viewing screens. The big ones were quite dangerous in that they were potentially "bombs" in living rooms.

Anyhow, that's the past. Today the future is very promising indeed, though not necessarily in time for the eldest of us. We "lost" a hundred years when automobiles with Otto engines (internal combustion) won over the electrics at the turn of the 20th Century. Toyota's Prius has set the tone of what is now possible, though we could have had it at least by 1950. The hybrid idea was the key to the recent "breakthrough."

The ideas expressed in the segment on PBS about brain/mind were quite intriguing, but have been expressed in quite a few books over the past five years without great excitement in readership. I have been a subscriber to WIRED magazine for over two years, because its articles are so up-beat on tomorrow. Among other developments with a high tech boost is the approach to sight for the blind by using the tongue as a learning step. I can see how this "works" because of a book only a few years ago by Steven Lightner (sp?) on how the mind learns. Since the tongue is but a step in retraining the brain, this item may well be tailor-made for me, as I have progressive M D --macular degeneration-- if I stick around for a few years I'll certainly be an eager test subject for the pioneering effort, just as I was for Morse Code as a 'teen enthusiast cum old Morse operator on board ship (see www.sowp.org ).

On iTunes there is an ADVANCED option to convert to it and I think it sounds much better also it only works right on the last upgrade. previously it was very unreliable. is it the same thing? under iTunes ADVANCED in the main top menu. . .Claire

It's fun and interesting to read all of your comments. Makes one better appreciate just HOW BROAD the scope of electronics really is. I guess that having used SOME of them for a quarter century or more, we take many of them for granted.

MY FAVORITE BUTTON ON THE REMOTE IS THE "MUTE." I live in an apartment complex and the last thing you want to inflict upon your neighbors (especially after 9 p.m. re the 'early to-bedders' is LOUD VOICES. Most commercials invade my small space shouting about their wares w/phrases that startle and annoy. I quickly reach over and hit the "mute" button and make a mental note NOT to buy that particular product...

My Dad, who was an electrician w/his own company, brought home our first TV in the early 50s. A B&W, of course, and the screen was a whopping 9" (?). On Saturday afternoons, depending what was showing, (and having set up two small, but ample, speaker units outside)he would face the TV to the front porch; the neighborhood kids would crowd the front porch glider (or when it was soon full, stand in front of it)all marveling at the images appearing before them--especially when it was Hopalong Cassidy.

Wasn't Milton Berle the first major TV star via Texaco Theatre? Red Skelton another...my brother and I would rush to finish our homework, slide into our PJs and join Mom and Dad in front of the set.

I, too, abhor the thoughtlessness of those who shove a portion of their lives into OUR faces via their all too intrusive cell phones. Last year while riding the bus one such CP owner was loudly chatting away to "Mike" making the rest of the passengers unwillingly partakers of her idle remarks. After 10" or so of this one-sided conversation she got up and make her way to the exit. I found myself saying: "Tell Mike we all said GOODBYE!" She looked startled (so was I, realizing it was ME that had spoken up) and then a bit sheepish as she headed out the rear MUNI door. There was a smattering of applause after my comment and several smiles tossed my way.

While I acknowledge and appreciate the good that these telephone imps often do (even saving lives)on many occasions, my attention is too often distracted from my book or crossword by yet one more 'Paris Hilton wannabee' spilling her personal life in MY ear...

ZZ2, I totally agree about the MUTE button. We almost wore ours out during the recent political season.

ZZ2: I remember Milton Berle and George Burnes and Gracie Allen also.

HAPPY BILL: MARCIE's Memorial to ZINNIA is HERE in the Memorial to SeniorNet Members discussion that can be found on the Main menu of discussions. There are many fine tributes following MARCIE's post.

My grandson had his iPod here with him recently and he showed me how (amazingly, wireless) it played through my own stereo system. He had me turn the dial to where there wasn't any transmission (much like you do on the tv to watch a tape). The music he had downloaded on the iPod also played (wireless) on his car radio. It has a touch pad...which is cool.

I have nothing new to add to this fine conversation about the birth and growth of technology we have witnessed in our own lifetime. Amazing that Baby Boomers have not had that privilege. My own mother saw the birth of motor cars, electricity and telephone. I am sure I am forgetting some but technology is so much part of children's life today that they couldn't live without it.

I just received an email from my grandson who lives in Switzerland who has Downs Syndrome, I was delighted to read his message and surprised that he knew how to read and write, it brought tears to my eyes. Now I will have more contact with him through the internet.

I too use the Mute button and often I prefer not to watch a certain movie or documentary if I have to mute too often, I not only hit the mute button but I always look away from the screen to prevent any brainwashing techniques the sponsors are always eager to invent to keep us glued to television screen.

Thanks to DVDs and later versions of home entertainment the movie industry might see a reduction in ticket sales. I recently saw a movie on a plasma TV set and I must say it was wonderful for sound, color and all around enjoyment and NO commercials.

Thanks Bill for hosting this great discussion.

Just found time to get to this discussion.. I'm one of those folks who arranges computer classes for seniors through SeniorNet so I've been busy doing just that. I agree that a lot of folks ARE afraid of computers..but when they see little old me and I assure them that they are on a par with the rest of the class it seems to allay a lot of their fears. I take my hat off to ALL my students for having the nerve to try something new. I took a look at the PBS.shows..but the format put me off also and I would not choose ANY of them because of that. As to technology...let's talk about that later. Hello to Marcie & Eloise Best Colkots ( Collette)

ZeldaZane - Love your comment to the talkative cell phone user! I know I would never have the nerve to speak out like that. My funniest cell experience was a couple of years ago. I went into the ladies room at Macy's, and from the stall next to me, a woman said "Hi"! Of course I thought she was speaking to me, since we were the only ones there. It seemed a little creepy to me, but I said "hi" back to her. Then she started talking, and I realized she was on her cell phone! I was embarrassed, and got out of there ASAP.

I can't imagine being so anxious to talk to ANYONE, that I would call them from a stall in a public ladies room! Nor would I answer my own phone if it rang while I was there.

if you don't like it when someone invades your space it is necessary to say something or else suffer in silence and fume at everyone afterwards.. it's anew invasive society and folks have to have the courage to defend. . .Claire

post a six week course in assertive training as opposed to passive and aggressive behavior.

Cell Phone and TV stories are interesting but they have their own discussions elsewhere..
Here we should be commenting on Predictions or desires of products/services for the future especially of interest to seniors.
My background is product/service planning.e.g. find a need, research a solution , define a delivery plan..
I n most cases the solution is easy but the delivery plan is complex.
take the cell phone as an example. The technology existed in 1954.But the delivery plan couldnt be put in place till 1980s in Tokyo.( enough demand within value constraints)..
In 2009 all US TV will go digital! Now every cell phone tower could be a TV repeater as well as an other service , and a cell phone tower may already be there ..WOW.

We have a lot of complaints in our community every time a company wants to put up a cell phone tower. I've just had a letter-to-the-editor in the paper about the towers and the complaints. Like everybody else, I don't want a tower in my back yard (NIMBY), but the complainers should take a look around them. Along every street are the ugly power poles with power lines festooned between them. We're so used to having them that we don't "see" them any more, but they're in any photograph we take. Personally, I'd rather have the towers with the wires underground.

Funny addendum: after my letter was in the paper, I got a note from someone I didn't know telling me how much he agreed with me. I "googled" him, and it turns out he owns a cell-phone-tower company. We got a good laugh out of that.

It still amazes me that people MUST have the newest thing!. OK, I moved from England to the US in 1959 and had to leave a lot of stuff behind because it could not be used in the USA. The one thing I missed most of all was my electric kettle! I managed to get one here eventually,nowadays they are fashionable .."teas" maybe? In the house we bought in 1963, although it had central heating, the boiler was heated with coal you had to shovel into the hopper..(never thought I be doing that in the US) we did modernise with gas later on. I liked the refrigerator,the airconditioner, though the old stoves with the broiler on the floor were archaic (UK were eyelevel) I've always had a toaster, some for gas, some electric.There are a couple of coffee makers,a grinder,mr Coffee & a coffee press,hence the teakettle. I like a slow cooker, microwave,electric mixer and a blender, gave away a cuisineart. My kitchen could use a dishwasher, my son Casey is going to put one in next time he comes to stay.I have TV, one has a builtin VCR Casey bought a cheap DVD player which attaches to it and works quite well. The one I use most often has a VCR/DVD combo attached.I have no time or inclination for cable TV nor TIVO. (I read,sew & knit.) I do have a computer(XP)& printer.Also a fax/copier..predates the computer but works very well. Finally got a DSL line,only because we had problems with the outside phone line & the phone company talked me into getting it..(actually my son was here & HE talked them into a good deal) there have been 2 phone lines in my house for the last 25 years, a couple of the extensions are portable ones. I do have a cell phone, but really only use it for emergencies or travelling. As to other peripherals..for the longest time I have had a palmpilot, simply because I was a secretary to an organization & kept all the addresses on it. Unfortunately it finally would not hold a charge and the newer one I have now is not NEARLY as good as the old one.I use a jump drive, or travel drive to access computer files on other machines (very useful that one) As to cameras..I gave away my digital after my brother died, we bought it together to do some restoration of old pictures. I have had no interest in this since. Still have my old 35mm tho. Music is on my classical station or CDS Hate earphones and the noise of today. Never go to the cinema as the sound is too loud, My son's truck is garaged at my house most of the time. I do not drive.(there are enough idiots on the road already) Am I interested in new technology? Up to a point. What's in it for ME? Colkots

Onething about being old. . .we get used to our own systems and are reluctant to take on a new learning curve unless it is NECESSAY. I'm finding that hearing and visual losses are making me consider upgrades to TV. My cell has better sound than the land line which now sports a special receiver thanksto the state which decided that I qualify for the buzzy loud sound and the huge one inch buttons, but it s not wireless. . .I miss that feature.

This computer will read things out loud but I find the voices hard to follow even though I can adjust them. I guess it's getting to be time for an old fashioned solution i.e. a hearing aid?

there are lots of new things available in that area too now as in implants. . .sigh and money . . .more sighs.

Claire

What a fascinating discussion. And haven't there been a lot of people inventing better mousetraps. As a former school librarian/media person I used to think I was pretty up to date on technology, but no more. I've never seen Tivo or YouTube, don't use instant messaging, my cell phone is strictly for talking, and unfortunately my ISP is still dial-up, but the guys who run it are non-profit sweetie pies and will answer any questions I may have.

One of my happiest working days was when we sent the last 16mm film projector to the Great Media Beyond. Then I think about all the taxpayer dollars that have been spent in schools all over the country for hardware, software, now being pitched -- the film loop projectors, filmstrip projectors, 3/4" video players. Not to mention where all this non-biodegradable stuff goes. Does it seem to you, like it does to me, that the pace of modern technology has really escalated over the past few decades? Things seem to become obsolete much quicker than they used to. The new quickly becomes old and must be thrown out to make room for the upgrades. I'm not saying it's bad, but it raises concerns about what we think we need.

There is an electric toothbrush (as it said on the tv) that has a computer device on the handle, that makes some kind of analysis of your teeth and gums, and tells you when it's time to go to the dentist.

HI All,

I found this discussion most interesting. I must thank you all for making a dull day in Scotland so interesting.

At times I find i am still old fashioned as i do not really use my microwave, apart from heating soup, As I write this i have an old fashioned tart (pie) in the oven. I really like the oven.

My mobile (Cell) I only use for emergencies, also send texts as it is cheaper. I also find it most annoying when people use it on public transport and at the checkouts while there is a big queue.

I really appreciate all our modern technology, often admire the inventors and appreciate their knowledge. I still find it amazing to send e-mails and receive them back the same day from USA and Australia. I will send this shortly and I am still enthralled that I can send and it be received so quickly. I have only started sending e-mails for about 9 months. I have so much to learn about my lap-top.

Blackbell: Welcome to SeniorNet. This is the place to learn about your computer. We are all learning together and we help one another. For instance, I've recently learned how to make your name bold and how to put text in verse form. (We have a contest called Last Man/Person Standing were the first line of a song lyric or a poem is posted and then contestants guess word-by-word until it is completed.) Right now we are doing Girl from Ipanema and periodically the text so far is listed.

Welcome blackbell. I, too, love that we can communicate so easily with people all over the world through the magic of the internet. We were in Scotland last fall and loved it. Where do you live there? We were mostly in Beauly (near Inverness), but spent time in the Black Isle, the Isle of Skye, and the Orkneys.

My aunt called again yesterday - still marvelling at the fact that she is getting e-mails almost daily from her loved ones. I've been able to send her photographs, too.

I have to agree with you about the need to have the newest and best and constantly upgrade. I recently began working with digital video and got involved with a group of others who are interested in digital video and the thing that amazes me is that it seems there is some new gadget that comes out every week and everybody has to have it. Where in the world do they get that sort of money? It's $200 here $500 there and it ends up to a huge chunk of change!

I probably have more gadgets than a lot of seniors, but I am slow to upgrade and I use everything I have on a daily basis.

cost me sixty cents at the used book store. amresisting video.

Now I'm debating whether or not to pay another year on servicing my washer & dryer and deciding if the washer/dryer I'd LIKE to have is worth buying at my age (more energy/water efficient) Maybe the price will go down later on.?.or .will I have to replace my computer...(age only ) .Hello to bonny Scotland..only got to Wales last year on my annual visit to England,, they're planning a 60th anniversary for us gals in September. Forgot one good thing... I do have a titanium implant in my left wrist.. fractured it in 2005..the microsurgery was a minor miracle and unless I turn my hand over you would never know, the scar is miniscule...But I've put off any other invasive surgery which scalpel hungry surgeons would love to do.

Best to all Colkots

COLKOTS: What is the purpose of the titanium implant? What does it do?

Blackbell, welcome. I'm so happy that this discussion brought you to SeniorNet. Please don't be a stranger. Several years a go I visited your native land and I still recall the honesty of an Edinburgh department store sales lady. After paying her for a purchase, I walked away forgetting to receive my change This honest lady followed me out of the department store to give me the change due me.

When I read all the posts pertaining to the early days of television, I started thinking about some of the early programs such as the Morey Amsterdam show of 1948, Kukla, Fran and Olie, what a laugh these shows brought. And the Kefauver hearings of the 1950s and 1951 didn't bring much of a laugh. My wouldn't the McCarthy hearings have found today's electronic surveillance technology usefull.

I'm constantly reminded of surveillance as I enter the local supermarket. There, on either side of the front doors are the video cameras sweeping the entrance and the parking lot. Too bad we have to have this type of protection along with electronic wiretaps for our safety.

Bill H

Colkots, after meeting you in Montreal last year, I would say change your washing machine, you still have a good 20 more years to go. I changed mine 3 years ago but didn't buy a dryer as I prefer a clothes line and an indoor rack in winter. My mini front loading machine is just great.

When I didn't have a cell phone and ran out of gas on a turnpike the two of us gals waved for help. 5 motorists with cell phones offered to help. I think I will get rid of my useless costly cell phone.

Hi Mrs Sherlock, Mary Z, Bill H,

Thank you for making me feel welcome. On reading some of your mail I find that your television is as bad as ours, with repeats. This is better than watching the box.

I live 7 miles outside of Glasgow, 40 minutes from Edinburgh. We are lucky that we have free bus travel over most of Scotland. When (if ever the rain stops) the weather is better a few of us go site seeing. Not as far as the isles etc, as we only go for the day.

I got a DVD recorder for Xmas and I now have to learn how to work it. The theory is that it keeps the brain active the more you learn.

blackbell, we flew in to Edinburgh and took the train to Glasgow. Our program was an Elderhostel and it started in Glasgow. We came a few days early to spend in Glasgow, and had a great time "touristing" around that interesting city.

Glad you're enjoying SeniorNet.

keeps a lot of us from learning new things myself included. I've got some water soluble oil paints to try and I haven't yeet. . .tried them. Mary have you? . . .Claire

I haven't used them, Claire, and don't personally know anyone who does. But there are some painters here in town who do. I've only worked with watercolor and acrylics.

Oil has a buttery quality which is nice for blending especially for portraits and florals. I'm not sure about abstracts but will find out . . .one of these days . . .probably. . .Claire

I'm coming to Dunoon toward the end of May. A group of church friends from here in Alabama are going to visit some friends at the High Kirk in Dunoon. One of our parishioners is a native of Dunoon and last year 13 of them came to visit us. We're hoping to fly into Glasgow and out of Edinburgh. E-mail me if you would be interested in meeting for coffee or tea while we're there. Please put Senior Net Curious Minds in the subject line.

P.S. I got a DVD for Christmas, too, and although my son showed me briefly how to work it, I haven't managed it for myself. I'm a bit of a klutz about new electronic devices, although I became fairly computer literate back in the 80s when computers came to my classroom when I was still teaching. Sue

Sue, you'll do fine. They're really quite easy to operate. Just like a videotape, only flat.

Mary, I can get the DVD player to open, close, and start, but I can't get a picture on the TV. I know there is something else I should be doing, but can't figure it out from the tiny written directions. Tim showed me on Christmas Day when he hooked it up, but I was cooking dinner and didn't pay a lot of attention. Kris got a new digital camera and gave me her old one--and I haven't taken it out of the bag--I'm just a chicken about new stuff!

I know how to use my VCR to play a tape, but never learned how to record one at a specific time as Bob always did that for me--and now I've lost the directions to that one, too. I was happy to see the DVD player as VHS tapes at the neighborhood Hastings are in short supply. Almost anything new is on DVD, so I've got to learn how to use this one! Sue

To take advantage of the convenience of the mobile phone but to avoid the high cost I use what is called a prepaid cell phone. I purchase the instrument ($60) and buy time online. It is for emergencies and travel and suits me just fine after more than 5 years. Today I didn't have my phone, it was charging, and my sister and I spent more than 30 minutes in different parts of the same parking lot waiting to meet each other. So I will charge my phone overnight to be ready for the needs of the day.

Sue, have you tried turning the DVD over? That happened to us once. Also, we got one from Netflix that didn't play. I checked their web site, and it suggested wiping the playing surface off with a glass cleaner on a paper towel. That did the trick. Give those a try.

Sue, Mary makes some good points, well worth trying.

But it may also be that you just simply have to switch from VCR mode to DVD mode. That's what I have to do on my machine, and I do it from the MENU on the VCR. I'm taping Jane Eyre right now, until 10, so I can't get into the Menu to be more specific, but will check later if I'm still up at 10 pm or else tomorrow morning.

Thanks, Mary and Pedln. I'll try both suggestions tomorrow when I can find time. Right now I'm watching the football game while waiting for "Jane Eyre" to start. I'm very disappointed that it isn't starting until 9:00 here. I'll have to stay up until 11:00 tonight. I like to go to bed at 10:00 and read for at least an hour. Sue

Sue, I just sent you an email about your DVD player, which I hope isn't too totally confusing. Keep plugging at it -- you have a DVD player, you want to watch DVDs.

I'm sure there are others here who are more knowledgeable than I, so keep asking. You'll get there.

Pedln, I got your e-mail and sent a reply. I've been busy with church work this morning so haven't had a chance to try anything else, but I'll get to it soon, I hope. Sue

I like to watch movies on my conputer. It is more intimate and I can see it better than the TV.

I've never watched movies on the computer. It seems like the screen would be so small. Do you use the regular DVDs?

Yes, regular DVDs. I have a 19" flat screen, good and sharp.

the sound is bad. can you read the cc on your computer?

I really like the recliner though over this straight chair that I use here but it's an idea. I've never seen a dvd. do they just go into the cd slot on my mac mini?

live and learn. . .Claire

PS I signed up for Hillary's CONVERSATION and sent a message to her blog. the conversaion starts on line at 7 eastern or four here in CA. gonna be another hour or so in this straight chair I guess. . . .Claire

Pedln sent me an e-mail with several suggestions on getting my new DVD player working. After I sent back an e-mail about the plug things on the back, she had another idea and "IT WORKS!" Hurray. I found the input button on my TV remote, turned on the DVD player and it is playing my one and only DVD as we speak. Now I'm going to look for DVDs at my library and the rental store. Sue

Sue, you might also consider signing up for NetFlix - ordered on line, and delivered and returned right from your mailbox. Wonderful! Congratulations to you and pedln!

Sue, I'm glad everything worked out for you. And Mary's idea is good -- Netflix is wonderful and convenient, and they have a superb collection. There is very little I can't find there, albeit some don't have captioning, but that's not their fault.

Winsum, my daughter and her partner have not had a TV for several years. They use their laptops exclusively -- listening to NPR through them, and also watching DVDs -- they have Netflix, too. And yes, it shows captioning.

Closed captioning is an additional technological blessing for many of us. Like many others, for me it's not a matter of not hearing, but of not understanding, with many variations, depending on who is speaking. So I'm grateful for it and for the law that said TVs had to be captioning capable. On New Year's Eve I brought it up on a friend's TV. She had never used it, but now she's keeping it on because she didn't know she was missing so much.

Captioned telephones came into being a few years ago, and I was the first person in my community to receive one. Very helpful, especially with the answering machine, where I can't say "Eh what."

what are they like? do they ha ve screens to read or what. I'm not only getting deaf my vision is messed up too so reading a small screen is a problem.

found it here

http://www.captionedtelephone.com/

I have an assisted hearing seeing phone but that area is for quick dialing and numbers. hmmm. . .the state gave it to me. I like the large number can just stand over it and dial. . .Claire

Blackbell -- Hello and welcome to SrNet. So nice to see someone from Scotland. If you look under each person's name you will often find something about them and maybe even a photo. I hope you find some other discussions you will like to participate in.

It's beginning to be a joke with my family and friends when I tell them I'm finally going to get a new computer. I hate being forced to buy something new when the one I have works just fine except for new software that comes out where it is not compatible with mine. I ran across this with the 2006 TurboTax software. It requires so much more RAM than I have and has so much Internet download stuff (like the State -- new this year) that it will not work on my system

My TV has closed-caption and language option of English, French, or Spanish. Some times it's fun to watch in another language.

The titanium implant was microsurgery to help heal a fractured wrist..(Ifell & hit the stove going down) my bones are small & delicate and it was considered the best way to go by the surgeon who just happened to be in the emergency room when I checked in...plus 3-4 months of therapy. I was VERY fortunate because I've seen other women with that type of injury whose healing was not so good. Colkots

I have a 17" screen and watch DVDs on my Computer. I have to reset the power settings to two hours otherwise the PC will go to sleep 15 mins into the movie! Its something to remember. I don't have another DVD player and find the 17" screen is fine. I swivel my screen towards the sofa and voila I watch the movie.

Carolyn

about the newer wonders of technology.. I say if it helps..take advantage of it and USE it... that's what's so wonderful about the SeniorNet site and the people who sign in here.. we are always ready to help one another.. Best to all Colkots

PS Yesterday our computer teachers were just discussing the new microsoft Vista operating system and debating what we were going to have to do with our 8 computers in the future. NOW that's a daunting and frightening thought...!

winsom --- Thank you for the reference.... I have amplified phone but my hearing has degraded so much I also have a problem understanding if speaker has an accent or high pitched voice ... I see my state offers the service , so I will see if I qualify for one..

Ihave trouble with accents too and this phone has a strange crackle to it. I ended up calling my daughter back on my cell the other day raher than try to have a conversation. We are both long winded and enjoy a long talk now and then and it was just too noisy. OK for short things like appointment etc, but not as good as my ancient Nokia cell pphone with Cingular.

Claire

One subject we have not touched on is the new electronic voting machine system. In your opinion do you believe the electronic voting machines improve the voting process?

Our township used the new touch system voting machines in last falls elections. They seemed to be much like the electronic machines found at the check counters of our local super market (by the way, how do you like those electronic devices the super markets are using?) Folks didn't seem to be having too much trouble using the electronic voting machines and township did have workers instructing those who did have some trouble.

To learn more about electronic voting, please use the following link.

http://www.votingmachinesprocon.org/subsystems.htm

Bill H

Bill, here in Auburn, AL, we have the electronic card reader machines. We must fill in the space with a special pen beside the people we are voting for. Then we take it to a machine where it is put into a slot and it disappears. I'm guessing that's a card reader. A window near the slot counts the number of cards.

I moved here 2 years ago from a small rural area where we still had the old kind where the poll worker pulled a handle to clear the machine, we moved levers to the correct place and when finished pulled another lever to record out vote. This system here seems to work better and faster. So far no waiting in line although there are far more voters here. In the country, my polling place was in a small utility building only large enough for the poll workers table and one machine. Sometimes I'd have to stand in line outside to wait my turn on very hot or rainy days. Sue

One of the things i hate about the new technology..........my dgt gave me a palm pilot about 6 months ago and i've used it to keep a list of the books that i've read, so when i go to the library i don't pick up a book i've already read. i also had lists of books (dozens) that i want to read - most had been selected on SN book site - and authors that sound interesting. I had also listed birthdays, anniversaries, etc and other small lists of info that i wanted to have available.........Our library has been closed for about 2 months for renovation, so i haven't used the palm pilot thru that time. Yesterday i went to get it........you all know what i'm going to say........all data was GONE!......I think i'll go back to paper and pencil..........it's dependable, nothing disappears from paper...........of course, my dgt asked "didn't you back it up on the computer????" .......no backing up needed w/ paper and pencil.........jean

JEAN: You don't have to backup pencil and paper, you just have to find it. However, I do feel for your problem. My list of books is all on my computer and it works because I order most books online. A Palm Pilot sounds like a good idea to take to the library. I don't have one of those yet. I would sure be lost if my computer crashed and my book list was lost though.

Remember when we used to wait in line at the bank to withdraw money? I thought at the time I must learn it even if I slightly suspected the bank debit machine would make mistakes, wouldn't recognize my PIN #, someone might be find a way of cashing in all my savings. That was ages ago, now I am so happy that I don't have to wait in line anymore to get cash, even paying bills is at a touch of my finger in a flash. I use the system without a second thought now.

I used to have nightmares that a world wide banking system would have a huge meltdown that could not be fixed and everybody's assets would be frozen. Is it that improbable? What is money today in fact if it is not a series of digits inside complex computer systems?

I was in Prague 5 years ago and someone picked my pocketbook, I only lost a hundred dollars, and went to the hotel debit machine and everything was written in both English and Theck. English is used in machines in France and Italy, everywhere else I suppose.

They did it and filmed doing it and it was very easy. Our new voting machines are not reliable. something needs to be done nationally before 2008.

claire

We've only used our ATM cards to get money in other countries. It's far and away the best method. Unfortunately, last year when we were in Scotland, our credit union had all ATM usages block in the UK, because of a large amount of fraud. Fortunately, we had called before we left, and knew this ahead of time. We've not used a debit card yet, but guess we need to learn how to do that before our next trip.

Eloise, we're going to Prague/Budapest/Vienna in September. I'd appreciate any hints you can send me by e-mail. SN doesn't have a discussion for that part of the world.

I get money inside now instead of using it and make deposits in the public box in the lobby. I'm having to keep more cash around an don't like that much, but . . .I only have to go for it once every couple of months since plastic works for almost everything. I only use charge accounts never debit ones since I want to control all balances in my accounts myself.

claire

Jean ~ same thing happened to my palm pilot...lost all data and most of the programs. It's now a very expensive calculator and calendar. My cell phone has a calculator and calendar. Also video and still photos, text messaging and notepad. I'm not connected to the Internet with it but may some day when I can figure it out.

I have been using the automatic checkout for awhile now but only when paying cash and a few items. I hate to hold up people in the line with money back and debit card transactions.

Our voting machines are the Optical Reading Machines that use the special pencils. When you finish voting and take it to the central machine it is nice to know that your votes were accepted. If there is a problem the machine won't accept it and backs it out. Our county balked at buying the electronic machines because of the cost. I'm glad because the ones that they would have bought don't have a paper trail.

I am here for the first time because I wanted to know more about the PBS programs. I went to the web site, but couldn't see the three choices. I saw a program on the history channel about experiments with brain implants to help a quadriplegic control a computer cursor. It is amazing in its implications.

GoldenStatePoppy, here is a page with links to the three PBS Science pilot program choices. You can view them on their web sites and vote for the one you want to see developed into an ongoing series.

http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?PageID=8329

Sue, in regard to electronic voting machines, our township uses the touch screen voting. We just touch the block beside the candidates name to register our vote. Then before leaving we touch the verify block and the screen shows who and what we voted for. If a mistake is made we can go back and correct all.

Claire, I wonder how accurate our touch screen voting machines are. At the super market we have the touch screen at the check out counter. I don't really care for them. I suppose it is another way of cutting back on employees.

Marcie, thank you for the link.

Bill H

from the wired science pilot is interesting got thirty thousand for a new car? all electric?? don't I wish. see him here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk

Claire

Does anybody here use what they call "Life Alert?" I don't know how it works, but it's a bracelet or necklace that you wear and if you have problems and can't reach a phone you just press a button, and you're connected somewhere.

I thought you had to be connected to a hospital or some such (for a monthly fee), but someone told me you could buy the mechanisms at Radio Shack (or similar place) and program in who you wanted to contact, such as a family member or friend.

Bill, I think we're still in the dark ages here with voting. We used to punch out the holes, and now I think the last time I voted we used a marker/pen. There's a special election coming up in a week or so, so I'll take special note.

it can be a pndant or a bracelet I prefer the latter because I never ever take it off. The base is plugged into both my phone jack and my electrical circuit. if I should hit the button a very loud voice says ERMERGENCY EMERGENCY and then asks is I'm all right. If I don't answer they will call 911 for me . . .they have information on where I keep a key so that they can tell operator and they can just come in. My neighbor knows too athough thy are nn't home all the time.

This makes me feel safe. it works for intruders too. that loud voice wold probably scare a casuel one out of his britches.

I should get the button checked more often by calling their phone aqnd telling them that is what I'm going to o and then doing it to verify that they are getting the message. OK tomorrow. . . Claire

I know two people who have the alert systems. They are programmed to call whoever the person designated as their prime contact. In both cases, they malfunctioned in different ways. In one case, the company called her in a regular check on the system. She was on her patio and didn't hear the phone which brought her son from a long distance. In the other case, she wore it in the shower which caused it to malfunction and the service called her primary contact.

I am of the opinion that a cell phone would be a much better choice for most. It could be programmed for whoever you wish. It requires the person to have it with them, however, but most could do that.

the touch type are not safe. It was demenstrated in an HBO special hr long film that their programing can be redone easily from the outside. There are real problems with security that are fairly simple. As to re programing them I'll leave that to the experts but hope that this next time THEY GET IT RIGHT. . .

claire

I wear it swimming and in the shower and try not to press it by accident but the action is hard enough so that is not likely. I don't have a choice as to whom to call because it is necessary for someone to ALWAYS BE THERE and I pay them fifty bucks a month for THAT.

claire

I just checked BookTV to see what's going to be on C-Span2 this weekend. This is a listing for tomorrow morning....

On Saturday, January 27 at 1:30 pm ET

"Next" by Michael Crichton

Description: Michael Crichton warns that the future is closer than we think. In his novel "Next" Mr. Crichton describes the genetic world as "fast, furious, and out of control." During this event hosted by the National Press Club in Washington, DC, the author discusses recent scientific leaps on the study of genetics and talks about how gene manipulation can help cure drug addiction.

Pedlyn, when you mentioned the punch type ballot, I was reminded of all the TV jokes about the hanging chads.

Isn't that what they were called?

Bill H

After the famous "hanging chad" election I was very excited about the prospect of electronic voting, but I have come to realize that there is such a HUGE potential for fraud there. I don't know if there is any way of assuring an honest election with any system, and that depresses me greatly.

they just need sharper punches. better tha the electronic even with a paper trail it is easy to alter as well as the numbers in the memory. We know about memory claire

I usually vote absentee as my polling place is not handicapped access. However, last time I had help getting up,and down the stairs so I voted touch screen. It was easy, but I wondered also if it really worked... I may get a ride to the local library & vote early (this is Chicago so the joke goes "vote early & often") Leaving for LA to visit my actress daughter from 2-1 to 2-15. Best to all Colkots

All voting in Oregon is by mail; no chads, hanging or otherwise. I don't know how non-sighted people vote. I'll research it and get back to you.

Miccrosoft's VISTA goes on sale at midnight tonight. From everything I have learned about it, I am not in a hurry to buy it. I am not at all sure that it offers any advantages to what I normally do on the computer.

Here is a link to an evaluation of it.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/business/ci_5110326

Tomorrow, Jan, 31st. will end the CM discussion of Modern Day technology. A new CM discussion will begin next month on February 16th.

Bill H

Why is it ending? I just got here and would like to continue the topic.

The Curious Minds discussions are lead by a team of volunteers who each offer a new topic for two weeks at the end of the month.

It's great that you don't want to end the topic, Goldenstatepoppy. This has been an interesting discussion. Good topic, Bill!

You can continue to talk about computers and software in our Computer Q&A discussions. There is a discussion for VISTA at Software--Windows 95/98/ME/Win2000/WinXP/Vista.

After tomorrow's end of discussion here, you all can continue the discussion of "Technology" in our Technologies of the 20th Century discussion.

GoldenState Poppy, thank you for your interest in this months CM. I wish you could've found it sooner I'm sure your posts would have been interesting. There is still time today to make any posts you wish about this topic. However, this months CM topic will end today.

Marcie did give you good links to a folder where you can continue to make posts or ask questions about computers and such as we have talked about here.

I thank all of you who participated in this subject. Your posts were all worthwhile.

However this day is still long and there is still time to make posts regarding this subject.

Bill H

Just wanted to say "Thanks" Bill for a great topic. I enjoyed the good memories and learned a couple of things, too. And, thanks to "links." found two offering reviews/good info on Gates' new VISTA software.

I'm already looking forward to our February topic. Thanks again for your time and effort on our behalf.

BillH: My thanks as well. You SeniorNet volunteers are so very special. You give my life so much more zest than it would have without you. I must exercise those important brain muscles to keep up with your offerings.

Thank you Bill for the CM. I learned so much about the technology I don't have but might want to one day. It was great, I followed right through and enjoyed every post.

Thank all of you for your kind remarks. They are appreciated.

Good bye for now. See you later.

Bill H

You can continue to talk about computers and software in our Computer Q&A discussions. There is a discussion for VISTA at Software--Windows 95/98/ME/Win2000/WinXP/Vista.

Please continue the discussion of "Technology" in our Technologies of the 20th Century discussion.

Welcome to Curious Minds, a forum for conversation on ideas and criticism found in magazines, journals and reviews on the WorldWideWeb. Our inquiry this month will focus our conversation on,
What Advertising Tells Us About Seniors

The 50-Plus Market is growing larger and wealthier each year. By 2015, the over-50s will account for between 50 to 60 percent of all incomes. Yet, studies show Senior consumers consider contemporary advertising “irrelevant” to them. What draws the Woodstock generation won't necessarily attract the Elvis fan.

The most effective commercials are timeless, age-neutral. Smart Home systems, lighter-weight drill or a garden tool with padded grips, and vehicles designed with stiff joints and dulled vision in mind benefits everyone.

The insults dealt softly to older consumers are numerous: packaging that is difficult to open, "IT" products that put fashion before easy use, portions that force aging singles to buy meals designed for kids. People sometimes think they are being kind if they treat older people differently from those who are younger. Then there are the age-ghetto items, such as stair-lifts, which mainstream advertisers dispatched long ago to Ageism but still ring in our ears.

Seniors 65 years and older make up about 12 percent of the US population, and there are about five people between the ages of 20 and 64 for each person 65 and older. Most Marketing is directed toward this youthful audience.

Advertisements portraying seniors as unattractive, inactive or pathetic enables negative attitudes about aging. Unchallenged, Ageism [negative attitudes] becomes accepted as true. Removed by attitudes from a vibrant economic and social life, Seniors will find as we age we will become almost invisible, misunderstood, deprived of decision-making over our lives even in policymaking.

Let's talk about successful Ads and discuss
what we can do about the Ads that feature Ageism.

Attacking Ageism in Advertising ||| "I'm young, I deserve it more"
Ageism ||| Fit, fabulous and 50 but women are hidden

This topic starts HERE

Discussion Leader: Barbara St. Aubrey

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Let's talk about it - we do not see as much "Granny Bashing" or calling men the "old Gezza" as we once did - however Ageism is still part of advertisements - there have been some very good ads in the last year or so - what ads do you particularly like?

However, there are still ads patronizing those of a mature age calling them 'Our seniors' or showing them and only the senior as needing special assistance. Yes, those tubs - ohhhh - no one else could benefit from that product??!!??

Frankly I did not know till I started the research on this topic that Ageism is the word used to describe all the awful examples of behavior that has made us cringe.

It will be very easy for us to drift off into a conversation about all sorts of Ageism issues - but for this discussion please let's stick to what we see in Advertisements.

I did want to share a link to a photo that to me is such a wonderful example of love between a man and women regardless they are well into their mature years. Couple showing love for each other Now that to me is the kind of photograph I would like to see and do not see in today's advertisements appealing to the over 65 crowd.

Pull up your chair and bring your coffee or glass of wine to our online discussion. We shall begin this conversation on Friday, when we exchange thoughts and y'all focus our attention on the ads you find, till the end of the month...

Well what do you think of Dennis Hopper, who produced Easy Rider in 1969, telling seniors to live their dreams?

Barbara - great introduction, i'm very busy for a few days, will be checking in......and posting ......at a later time.....jean

Great Jean - the door is always open - look forward to your visit...

This is a great topic. The ads that come with the evening news on TV (for medication) are particularly nauseating. If you are not sick before you see the ads you will feel sick afterwards..

The promise of immediate cures and simple solutions with the continuous message of "Ask your Doctor about......." . A senior needs to be reminded to ask his\her Doctor because they wouldn't think of it themselves.

And the coralary -the "After" picture will always show the now well and improved Senior playing with his /her very cute five year old grandson (for men) or granddaughter (for women).

Perhaps we should send the Drug Companies some snap shots of us Seniors tapping away at our computers and discussing how bad their ads are.

Judy

Judy

I wanted to mention the ad about the tub for "seniors" with a door to walk into. That tub is not necessarily just for seniors as the ad seems to imply, everybody can use it comfortably. I believe Asian countries have something similar. It takes less water than the conventional tub where you have to sit down on the floor of the tub, something that a lot of seniors can't do. Of course it's good for seniors, but not only for them.

The ad is targeted for seniors and I don't think that it serves its purpose. Building contractors installing tubs in large apartment complexes might not want to make such drastic changes in bathroom fixtures until a few decades. The concept is too new but if the ads were meant for the general population, it might sell even more than if it targeted seniors only.

Judy:-It is not suggested that the Senior ask the physician for a specific medication because of his possible failing memory. This is the way that the Pharmaceutical companies pressure the doctors. The physician might not do what the company wants but is more likely to give in to the patient's desires.

Robby

Oh my so Robert we are being manipulated as well as disrespected - wow!

And yes Éloïse, those tubs - not only would others benefit but - the whole idea of showing only seniors who are physically incapable - when do they show seniors on long distance hikes taking a soak after a day on the trail...?

And Judy you are saying so much more when you explained the ad showing the view of a healthy senior 'after' the magic drug as playing with a grandchild... how patronizing. Younger folks after the magic drug that is being hawked are usually shown walking on a beach or in the middle of a child's birthday party.

Now the one that addresses incontinence shows her in an attractive red dress at a cocktail party - a plus there...

I have seen a few print ads of a glowing senior couple on vacation or buying a condo but I need to find them to report exactly the company that was advertised.

Until you start taking count it is amazing how few ads are on TV that are looking for business from seniors. Seniors who have over 30% of the wealth now and in 10 years are supposed to represent 60% of the wealth. So many of the ads focused on the senior market seem to be about health issues - do we not use a cell phone or use a new soap, cleaning product or shampoo or buy a new vehicle, crossover or pickup?

I was impressed with the Dove ad that shows all ages. Does anyone know what product the billboard in New York is advertising that shows 6 mature women in their 'Birthday Skin'?

Early on here it was asked what we thought of Dennis Hopper telling seniors to "live their dreams." I laugh at it. I don't need a Hollywood type telling me how to live my life. I resent the implication that anyone over 50 cannot think for himself and has to be told by a Hollywood "star" how to live. Given how most of them seem to be living their lives, I would suggest they need to keep their advice to themselves. How patronizing!

I look at those tubs as an assisted-living feature, so are aimed at the disabled, whatever age. It surely wouldn't be convenient for families with small children that needed help bathing, etc. I don't even see them as beneficial for many seniors.

I'd think the new larger showers with multiple shower heads and seats included would have a far wider appeal to many.

Hi, y'all. You know, I always thought the "ask your Doctor" bit of the medication ads was protection. The ph. companies don't want to be accused of practicing medicine, so they always throw in some such line with their suggestions that we need their product. The same with the health stores. They must be very careful not to urge a client to a course of treatment, or say anything that might seem to contradict the client's physician.

The Madison Ave. honchos follow the market closely. If the wealth is shifting to the seniors, we can be reasonably confident the ads will, too. Look at how much adv. has been keyed to the teen market, since the teens were seen to have so much money to spend.

I took the time to look thru' an assortment of magazines at the library yesterday. Some interesting, but not too surprising, results. "PC WORLD" had not one ad showing an older person using a computer or any of the tech. attachments. They obviously still perceive the young as the PC market.

"HEALTH" had ads that features seniors as authority figures (the doctors), or big name spokespersons, like Sally Field for Boniva and that trumpet player (can't think of the name) who endorses Advair. Then there are the ads, in mag. and on TV, for the cholesterol med. that features older family members, dressed to resemble foods, as the sources of familial cholesterol. (Actually, I found that ad quite clever and wonder where on earth they found that fabric that looks like raspberry cheesecake!)

"FITNESS" Again, no ads feauring seniors. All youth.

"FAMILY CIRCLE" None of the 'family' pictures included an elder. The family unit still seems to be perceived as Mom, Dad and kids, thought that is no longer the most common unit. I guess they want to foster that tidy image. Again, I did an older person a product, ..insulin. I also found an ad in which a woman of 46 received a "10 years younger makeover". Accent on youth, again. There was also one ad showing square dancers who looked to be in the 40-50's range, with the 'caller' a lively looking senior.

"ATLANTIC" One ad, from GM, featuring an actual senior and the technological work he did for them.

Conclusion: to be expected. The magazines are geared toward their target audience, with topics like PC's and fitness seen as the interests of youth.

Babi

As we continue this discussion, I would like to know what age we are referring to when we say "older" or "aging." Baby Boomers are now being featured by AARP as "older" people. Anything over 55 is eligible for AARP. There is a big gap in experience and attitude between 55-65, or 65-75, or 75-90. As we look at ads, what are our definitions?

Robby

We asked our family doc if he had problems with patients asking for medications that were featured in TV ads. He said that it happened a lot, and that he had lost some patients because he refused to prescribe the medication asked for by the patient - even after explaining that it wasn't appropriate.

Robbie, you only have to be 50 to join AARP - my John's been a member now for 22 years. And you only have to be 55 to sign up for an Elderhostel - it originally was 60, but just as John turned 60, the age was lowered.

Good question, ROBBY. It is largely a matter of perception, isn't it? At 71, I think of 50 as middling...the age my children are approaching, as a matter of fact. However, 60+ can at least, IMO, be considered 'older person', if not 'elderly'.

I believe 'elderly' suggests to me more of a condition than an age. I think of it as physically limited to a noticeable extent. I'm sure others will have different takes.

Babi

Age 50 to be a member of AARP? My God!! In two years I will be the father of a Senior Citizen!!!

Robby

I can remember being irritated at receiving invitations to subscribe to AARP, years before I retired. I guess they just wanted to 'catch-'em young'.

Actually, considering all the fine articles I have since found on planning for retirement, I would have been wise to take them up on it!

Babi

I delighted in signing our sons-in-law up for AARP as their 50th birthday presents. Our oldest daughter turned 50 last year, the second one will do so this year. But I STILL don't consider myself as "elderly" - Old maybe, but not elderly. I agree with Babi, I think elderly is more a condition or state of mind, rather than an age.

I, too, detest the word "elderly"....call me old, even "ancient"...but don't call me "elderly."

Please explain that to me, Jane. What is positive about ancient and negative about elderly.

Robby

OH no - the whole post is gone... I hit the wrong key and the whole thing is gone - ohhh I hate it when I do that - ah so I will be back later -

Personal perception of the word "elderly," Robby.

To me "elderly" = incompetent/ mentally unable to function, frail, unable to get around physically and unaware of one's surroundings or others.

jane

Elderly = anyone older than me LOL

Being in the medical field, I tend to ignore all of them. In some cases I see the lies they are telling us (or shall we say "sins of omission." In all other ads, I tend not to believe just on general principles. So I don't really care what age group they are aiming at. I just let them flit right by without a thought.

Robby

I don't think stereotypes are going end and until they find a better term than 'elderly' or 'seniors' we are stuck with it. Why don't they call people over 55 the "second half" meaning the second part of a person's life. I tell my daughter's friends who complain about getting 'old' when they are only 45 that they should not start feeling old because they are only at the half way point in their life, but they don't believe me, or they are so afraid of getting old it's pathetic.

About ads, the "second half" people should take ACTION about ageism, not just say "what can we do? it's a fact of life". We can do a lot, we can boycott a product constantly using very young people as models. I once told a clerk behind the counter of Telus, in a mall that their ad of a very wrinkled woman sticking her tongue out at approaching crowds that I will absolutely never buy their product because of that ad and I kept my promise. It was so demeaning and vulgar. The clerk said: "It's not my fault" as they always say, but I said "please pass on my message to whoever is in charge". That ad disappeared in no time flat.

If the "second half" people all wrote companies who discriminate against aging people that their product will never be on our shopping list, they would change their ads. We let them do it, that's why. Now it's up to us to correct the situation. Baby Boomers will not let that pass I don't think.

Although I don't consider myself "elderly" - at least not yet, the one term that I absolutely loathe is when someone is referred to as "80 years young". I almost can't even type it. YUCK!!!

Actually I don't watch many ads, and if the ones I do happen to see aren't captioned, I have no idea what they're about.

But, on the positive side, and shame on me for not remembering the company -- an investment firm -- with the focus on what one is going to do after retirment. The company stresses that retired people are looking to a second life -- one woman starts the vineyard she has always dreamed about, and there are other example. That seems a step in the right direction for me.

Another positive ad -- for a photocopy machine? --
A small boy brings a picture to be copied and enlarged and when it finally meets his specifications, he's ringing a doorbell that is answered by an older person -- "Grandma, can you still do this" -- and shows the former pro softball player, who now goes and pitches to her grandson, her picture.

Senior Net in and of itself has so much to be proud of. There is a topic for everyone to participate in. Perhaps Senior Net itself should advertise! I don't know where the budget would come from but there are such great artists and writers presently aboard that the actual copy could be done by volunteers.

Just the list of subjects discussed should be printed in the AArp magazine. The use of computers for seniors should be enphasized . If Social Contact is as important as thought in Senior Health (Both Mental and Physical) then contact by computers could be of immense use to isolated seniors.

Learning to use a computer is not too difficult but the agony that one of my friends went through to decide which computer to buy seems to open up the question of more senior centers doing an outreach program to help with the actual purchase and basic use of the computer.

So when I think of Advertising I also think of how underused it is to help seniors learn and advance in their skills.

Judy

PEDLIN, I like that commercial, too. Similar ads are offered by other companies who offer retirement planning, with the emphasis on the 'dreams' one can fulfill when holding down a job is no longer required.

ROBBY, you would no doubt approve a maxim of my Dad's: "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see." It sounded cynical when I first heard it, but I have found it to be good advice.

We really need to be more alert to what is actually said or written in ads. Something may sound great, until you notice words like 'helps', 'most', 'some', 'aids in', 'may'...or my favorite, in small print, "not a typical result".

And the thrilling words, "Not available in stores!" Why not, I wonder?

Babi

Babi:-My first experience in the use of psychology was my getting a job shortly after high school with the largest advertising agency in the world -- Batten, Barton, Durstine, & Osborn (BBDO), And prior to my becoming a doctor, I was in the public relations field. I know a little bit about methods for affecting people's behavior.

Robby

HaHa! I can see we need to watch out for you, ROBBY! Truthfully, from participating in some of the discussions you lead, your training has made you most skilled in tact, diplomacy, and handling difficult people.

There is no doubt that ads make deft use of psychology to influence potential buyers. Some appeal to our fears, some to our dreams. I think they do take care not to offend. So if some of them do offend our generation, it's a good idea to say so.

Babi

No doubt that ad agencies have Psychologists at their service to know what people in each age group wants and I am sure they make good use of it. It's true that when I was 18 I wanted my hair to look like that of a big film star, I think it's part of growing up.

One thing we can certainly do is ignore advertising and buy products that have proven their value but it's hard to ignore what is in your face, billboards the size of an apartment building showing a broadly smiling teenage girl, dressed for the beach, selling tooth paste. I always press "mute" and look away during TV commercials to rest my ears and eyes.

At what age are we elderly or senior? I know many women who feel old at 40 and often talk about getting old. There is a definite fear of aging and the advertising agencies are using that fear for profit.

I think that people on Seniornet are the youngest seniors the world has ever seen. Here we can exercise our brain which in turn give us the opportunity to stay as physically healthy as possible because there are so many discussions that help you with any problem you have. I told my GP, who is a young woman in her 30s that my backup doctor is Google, she laughed.

Eloise, google is your backup doctor. I love that.

I think that old is always older than we are. An aunt and uncle of mine, and another aunt, moved into a retirement condo, at the ages of 89 and 92, and they would constantly refer to "older" people -- such as "Oh, he's the older gentleman who lives in Apt.N."

One thing I've noticed over the years, not so much now, because most of them are dead, but members of my family never really appeared old to me. It was always other people who were old.

And it's always relative. There was an extended family member who was well-taken care of by her family. She lived with them. One of the granddaughters always slept in her room so someone could get up if grandma needed help during the night. And her D & SIL, it was always, "sit here, mom," "do you need help, mom", "be careful mom". My mother and aunt always wondered how old she was and were dumbfounded to read her obituary and find out she was only in her 60's. I think sometimes we and others can make ourselves older than we really feel.

Life is what we make it, young or old. I have reached the monumental age of 80. There must be a reason and purpose for my life to continue. I was asked by Eloise to join in the on going conversation of advertising. I was an ad writer for general merchandise, dairies, grocery chains, and served as a purchasing agent and in advisory positions to new business creations.I also assisted in a Koolade sales point that had an outdoor sales banner (the kind you see along every freeway and "dead end street"). This kind of promotion was product induced without the use of people of any age. Also I had written a grocery ad that every item listed for sale was 10c. It was judged #1 ad by Grocers Journal. What I am trying to convey here is a successful product stands on its own merits. No fine print or disclaimers necessary. If any of you are interested, I will continue on at a later date. I would like to discuss the success of word of mouth salutations as seen on Senior Net, the true seniors home companion..MarkS..

Old is relative. When I am ill I feel much older than I am, when I am well I feel younger. One thing that never changes is that my persona is forever young. I frankly love interacting with young people. When I turned 55 I went to the over 55s club downtown. Frankly I hated it. I went to a concert with them and hated the music presented there. I like contemporary music apart from rap.

When I worked in advertising and sales we had to learn to interpret body language. I found that interesting. I never believe most advertising although I must say there have been advertisements where the claims they made in the advertisement were genuine and proved to be correct. I tend to do my own research using information from consumer groups rather than believe advertising in the media when I wish to purchase household goods. If I get a drug prescribed that is always advertised ( yes they allow drug advertisements on our TV and radio) I tend to go to the net and read the comments by consumers. If I think a drug is giving me unpleasant side effects I research adverse effects on the internet in fact I usually research any drug before I take the first dose so that I know what side effects may occur in some people.

I guess to sum it up. I prefer to do my research and make up my mind about products and services rather than take note of lavish advertising campaigns.

Seniors are largely ignored in advertising campaigns of mainstream products we seem to feature in advertisements for retirement villages or viagra! This really bugs me! Wouldn't it be great to see a senior portrayed using a third generation cellular phone or a PC. I have both of these items and know how to use them.

Carolyn

Not having worked in advertising I wonder what determines the content of the Ad and the form it takes ? The Ad agency , the product producer or the creative group who is given the task of design ?

If Seniors are the "Target Audience" are there "Senior Advisors" to comment on the content ?

If we are so turned off by "Ads for Senior Products" then the monetary gains should be effected. Perhaps we are not typical of those who see the ads and are influenced by them? I hope not.

Judy

Not advertising, but USA Today had a spread this morning showing all the Oscar nominees for best and supporting actor/actress. Three out of five "best actress nominees were well over 50 -- 57, 61, 72 respectively -- Streep, Mirren, Dench, and also one of the nominees for best supporting actress, whose name I don't remember.

WELL, i think it is very interesting that people on SENIOR Net and on a discussion site about the stereotypical image of "seniors" in advertising are running away from the words "senior" "elder," "elderly," "older." I think it speaks to our society and the way it denigrates the older people in our society. In many societies "elders" is a word full of respect, dignity, experience, wisdom......not things i want to run away from......And if those of us who are on this discussion site don't own those words, no wonder the younger members don't give them to us as their image of us, or the advertising world doesn't see those as POSITIVES.......instead of picturing us as demented, silly, ugly, incompetent........You can call me any of those "symbolic" words, but i agree, don't call me 80 years YOUNG......i have earned experience, dignity, wisdom, etc by growing old, respect my OLDNESS!!!......JEAN

Jean, I have NO problem with "old" - and don't do anything to disguise my age. I feel I've earned every one of those wrinkles, laugh-lines (I hope), and age spots. As I said before, I, too, hate the term "70 years young". But you're absolutely right. I hadn't thought about the incongruity about hanging out here on "Senior Net" discussing what we'd prefer to be called.

I recently saw a post somewhere...maybe here at SN, that the Boomers don't even like the word "senior" and are asking for name changes, so that the "Senior Center" becomes the "Community Center," etc.

jane

You are quite right, PEDLIN. Loving family members, in their desire to help, can hamper a recovery or cause a loved one to be weakened. I can remember a friend upset because most of her family insisted on doing everything for an aunt who had suffered a stroke. She complained that they would do things for her she could very well do for herself, with the result that she was losing the ability to do even that much.

CAROLYN, meds dispensed here routinely have full information about the drug given the buyer along with the med. What it is supposed to do, how it works, possible side effects, and what other meds, foods, etc. should not be taken with it. If we don't know before we take the first dose, it's our own fault!

Most of the ads I see on TV seem to present seniors in a positive way. They are generally attractive, alert, intelligent, and are conveying a message I am willing to listen to. Most of these do involve health and/or prevention or treatment of diseases. Offhand, I can't think just now of any ad that features older persons that is offensive. It's the ones that promote the idea that growing old is a terrible, ugly thing to be avoided at all cost, that I find shallow and offensive.

Babi

Don't get me wrong folks I don't hide my wrinkles and would never be one of these people who continually resort to cosmetic surgery at the first line on their face. I do object to being thought stupid because I am in the third age now. I am a lot younger than many of you but still the younger generation tend to think of people my age as being ancient and past it.

I guess I object to inferences that older people lose their marbles as they get older. I think most of us have just as good minds if not better than many half our age. I don't think we should be ashamed of our age but neither do I think we should be ashamed of the wisdom we have collected along the road of life. We should never give up on learning something new every day. I know I can relate to my grands and they love coming because I have kept up with the latest technology. I can help them to use the PC. We can email and text each other. I have interests in common with my youngest children too. Digital photography amongst them. I just got a text from my youngest daughter from Melbourne. I don't think we should be afraid to learn something new or to share our ideas with others.

Enclosed in my latest Grey Power magazine ( Lobby group for 55s and up) was a catalogue. It was full of medical and physical aids and yet I know 80% of members are still fully mobile and enjoying life. Why not give special deals on Gardening aids, PCs, phones, cars, nice clothing etc as well as physical aids. I am realistic that there are many people who do have need of Medical aids but the catalogue makes depressing reading.

It would also be nice to have advertisements for recreational groups and sports groups for seniors. Many seniors swim, go to the gym, play lawn bowls, tennis etc. We will be the biggest market in the world in two decades. We should be considered.

Practically everyone I associate with is younger than I. It is rare when I am not the oldest person in the room. I am active in the Chamber of Commerce which is composed mainly of middle-aged business men and women. When I go dancing, everyone is younger than I. 95% of my patients are younger than I and many many of them younger than 30.
There are a fair number of people older than I in my community but they are on rocking chairs talking about the past. I already lived the past; I don't have to talk about it. I am thinking about the future, especially my own future.

Robby

Yup, I know exactly what you are saying. I am losing my memory too.

In an email from Barbara she said she had fallen and was on pain medicine and should be back by Sat I would have been here before except I had my 18 month old grandson for 11 days while my daughter and her husband were out of town on a business trip.

Many people kept saying I SHOULDNT HAVE TAKEN ON THIS ..I am delighted at nearly 80 I could ,,I carried him downstairs several times a day..he obliged me by scampering up the stairs as fast as he could He loved to do that..I was 40 when his mother was a baby and she is 40 now and frankly I consider it a wonderful gift to have this delightful child for 11 days,.,. Of course I couldnt do the things I ususally do ...HE IS 18 Months old and curious, investigative, amazed by what he finds and creative in putting things together he has never seen before. We had a great time and I hope there will be other times as well,

Oh yes the day before they returned home...my youngest son and his wife and 8 year old son cared for him for a day and night so I could invite 9 friends in for a steak dinner..I served boiled new potatoes, mixed baby vegetables with an Asian sauce and home made wheat germ, rolls , a mushroom sauce for the steak which I broiled in my oven 5 at a time and a homemade dessert of homemade thin chocolate cookies put to together like a log with real whipped cream in between ,covered with same and dark cbocolate curls Now all of these were YOUNGER than me including 3 teenagers..they are people who are always doing things for me and I wanted to thank them...I share this becuase YEs I am fortunate to be active and good health atg my age but I DONT THINK I AM OLD...Like Robbie I am looking forward to the future because the future is there regardless of age ..We dont know what tomorrow will bring so my motto has always been ENJOY what days you have.

One reason I lie about my age is because as soon as some knows they treat me differently taking my arm when we are walking, talking to me like they were talking to a child ! I didnt and dont use baby talk to children are grandchildren and I dont want someone to treat me like age has addled my mind When I do something stupid I tell people this has nothing to do with my age ! I have been doing stupid things all my life! Sometimes it makes life more interesting.

I havent had time to read all the posts since this is my first day without Little Will....Tomaorrow I will take the time to read from the beginning ....My motto has always been you cant help aging but you dont have to grow OLD>..A TOAST to seniors ....anna

Anna - you are braver than I am. I have never had any of the kids at 18mths for more than a day or two. In fact my thirty something daughter had one of the grands for a weekend, she made her fiance come and help her. The grand was around 17mths. My daughter said she got so worn out she locked herself in the toilet for half an hour just to have some peace her fiance had to look after the baby for that half hour. She is now 36 and after that weekend she and her fiance say they are not sure if they want babies! I had to laugh. I asked her how she thought I managed with two babies a year apart and then ultimately four of them, two the same age.. She said "Mum I don't know how you did it!"

I have to say I really love having my grands when they are around three. They are so delightful and so eager to converse and share their childs view of the world with their granny. I think my grandchildren ( 6 of them aged from 3 -9) really enrich my life. I have two coming from 5pm - 8.30 pm tonight while their parents are at work I have them every Wednesday night when their parents shifts coincide. The two coming tonight are 6 and almost 10.

PS One of my closest friends is only 35.

I used never to tell my age because of that reaction: the label causes people to look at you forever more in a different way. I've never acted "old" because, perhaps, I have spent my adult years with people younger than I, first in college when I went back to finish y degree at 32, then when I began my working life at 40 after my divorce. My family says that I have never grown up, I lack seriousness. I used to dye my hair for the same reason, gray hair just doesn't owrk very well for respect and for job searching.Now that I am past 70, i still "don't get no respect" since strangers don't treat me the way they the treat little old ladies in tennis shoes that Herb Caen used to write about.

I don't mind telling my age - and I think I look my age. But I actually had somebody tell me just a couple of months ago that I couldn't possibly be on Medicare. I just laughed. It just isn't something that I worry about.

I am sorry about Barbara's fall Anna, I hope she gets well real soon. Yes, I am one of those who said taking care of an 18 month old baby is too much, not because you are not capable of climbing stairs, I live in an upstairs apartment too, but it would take too much out of me I think, but in a way I envy you this pleasure.

THESE STATISTICS tell us the proportion of people over 65. The top one doesn't count because Monaco has mostly rich old people who live there, but the second highest was Japan at 20%, the third Italy at 19.7%. Down the list quite a bit are the US 12.5%, Canada, 13.3%.

It has nothing to do with advertising and seniors we might say, but to me that reveals how people over 65 are treated. Here in North America we are mostly ignored and you can see that by how many old people are poor and unable to get medical care unless they have insurance. These people are not the ones on Seniornet.

If we can't change how we are perceived by the general younger population I hope Baby Boomers will be able to change it and I think they will because they are a pampered generation.

CAROLYN, I hope you will write to Gray Power Magazine and point out the too narrow range of their catalog. I imagine those advertisers do seek out a magazine that targets the 'gray' generation, but the magazine itself certainly ought to be more aware their subscribers interests...and seek to meet them.

ANNA, I'm sure the baby was a joy, tho' I doubt if I could handle 11 days of the pleasure.

It's the up-and-down stairs that is beyond me. The six steps up to my mobile home are accomplished with one hand on the rail. I'm still waiting for modern technology to present me with step-on air-mobile individual transport!

Babi

I know you said it because you care...and you were not the only one and the caring means more to me than the advice ...

One thing I have found annoying is the special plastic wrapping on bottles etc, the medicine bottles you have to PRESS down to open. the tiny tabs covering a product after you have opened the difficult lid...I have resorted to taking a sharp knife and pushing it through and lifting that inner cover.

For the most part I ignore senior advertising because I find most of it condescending and annoying...I am hard of hearing and belong to the National Organization and local chapter for the HARD OF HEARING...I appreciate both since they offer practical advice and help. And offer a way for us to say how we feel and advice to help us when shopping etc,

Unfortunately too many people are rude to the handicapped in one way or the other....Advertising is skewed in many ways ...children demand toys and gizmos shown on TV etc ..do those of you who live in other countries find the same type of advertising there ?

HERE'S TO SENIORS anna

ANNAFAIR, those difficult to open bottles were, of course, designed to keep children out. But I have found that if I ask the pharmacy not to use them for my meds, as they are difficult to open, they will make that change for me. Why not ask your pharmacy to use the easy pop-open lids for your meds.

Babi

You are right and I know that but sometimes I seem to prefer being stupid and not asking ....When I am home and trying to open the bottle I fuss at myself for not remembering...I often find it hard to believe I am this old! smiling at you and thanks for reminding me Perhaps the NEXT time I will remember too..anna

Anna, you ask if people from other countries have the same ads as you do in the US, well in Canada almost every channel is from the US and even the Canadian channels have the same ads as in the US. I personally don't know if we have Canadian pharmaceuticals, food chains, beauty products industries. I think they all are International industries now, don't you think?

In France there are less commercials on TV because the government didn't use to allow much time for commercials. On the other hand, they didn't have very good programming either until more time was allowed for advertisement. But you are right, in Europe seniors are not treated the same way, they are more integrated into society than in America. Europeans live longer if you noticed in the statistics in the link I gave before, so seniors are more courted in commercials.

I guess all we have to do is not watch commercial ads, so if old people don't buy the products advertised, large companies will have to change their tune.

Have you noticed in general ads, that gray hair on men seems to be acceptable, but how many do you see with gray-haired women -- other than Betty White or some head-shaking senior worried about the prescription drug plan. Whether it's viagra or a cruise to Jamaica, the man might have gray hair, but the woman never or rarely.

When I was young it was rare to put an aged family member in a "HOME" I know because my Irish grandmother lived with us for about 5 years ...and I dont recall any of the aged neighbors being put in a "HOME" but now it seems that is what children do ...and if you are on Medicare ( AND ARENT WE ALL?) they do a home visit if you have been in the hospital and want to return home to make sure you will have a convenient place to stay with access to a bathroom etc...if not I guess the doctor's can say you have to go to a care giver place....

AND yes grey haired men always look vigorous but grey haired women look helpless and rather in need of the product being advertized..

We no longer revere our elderly it seems and advertisers make it worse ...I appreciate those who as soon as they find I am hearing impaired cheerfully and immediately write me questions or instructions ...I am very snippy with those who say WHY DONT YOU GET A HEARING AID instead of helping me ..My reply is WHY DONT YOU GIVE ME FIVE THOUSAND TO BUY ONE? People need to be made aware that hearing aids cant help everyone nor does cochlear implants help everyone..There seems to be little tolerance in our society for those that have lived so long they are seen as a burden instead of appreciating the fact we have survived illnesses, wars, disasters etc and we are still fiesty...HERE"S TO SENIORS anna

Not as many men die oh that's dye there hair as women do so ,maybe that's why we see more gray haired men?

There is one TV ad for a denture adhesive (Polident?), that shows an older gray haired couple "making out" (what we used to call "necking"), in the front seat of a car. The woman has long wavy gray hair, and is quite pretty. He is good looking too! I have to admit that the ad always gets my attention.

Here is Northern California, we are served by Pacific Gas and Electric company (PG&E) for our utilities. The company has been running a public service spot on TV that urges us to get rid of our old appliances, for more energy efficient new ones. Offering a rebate, etc.

The spot is so annoying that I can feel my blood pressure rising whenever I see it. (Which is at least a couple of times a day.) It shows a young PG&E Service man doing some repair work in the basement of the house of an "elderly" man. (he looks to be about 80) Anyway, the young worker notices an old washing machine, and suggests to the man that it might be time to replace it with a new one. The old guy then gets a faraway look in his eye, and goes off on a long annoying nostalgia rant about how, "Why we've had that washing machine through 5 moves" - then he drifts off into memories and starts talking about the roll of wallpaper in the corner, and how he and his wife purchsed it in Guatemala - "No, it was Honduras", he says! The young PG&E worker is so bored listening, that he goes over and sits on the steps, while the "old man" rambles on and on ad infinitum, like some kind of a doddering nut case. Finally the PG&E guy has to interrupt the old guy, to finally shut him up so he can offer him the rebate. (Which he takes of course!)

Anyway, I think it's embarrassing, insulting and demeaning to seniors. None of us would ramble on and on like that to anyone - much less to a total stranger.

Well I am barely back - last Saturday visited a friend and fell up not down but up the stairs - I wore my moccasins and stepped on a loose tie - of course I put my hand forward instinctively to protect my face from the fall - what a mess - so off to the emergency clinic.

Well this is where my growling about Ageism is affecting my decisions - I go off thinking of myself as simply someone in pain who fell and laugh laugh so silly can you help patch me up - lo and behold all of a sudden I realize I am being patronized - talked to like I was as addled as my body appeared - I was seething...

I plastered this smile on my face to get me the treatment I needed and minimized my aches so they only x-rayed the arm. Went home black and blue and with a portable restrain and sling for the arm - a fracture near the elbow which took the shock of the fall however, my right side hit those concrete stairs - I just wanted out of there - took the pain medicine - got home and in bed among pillows so that I was almost sitting.

By yesterday I should have been feeling better - most of the black and blue was turning but it hurt more than my arm to lift the tea kettle - this time to my own doctor - sure enough cracked a rib.

Now you know darn well if I was 44 or even 54 instead of 74 I would probably have sat longer in the emergency clinic but the questions would have been directed to what happened and not to exclamations about how easy it is to trip and fall and how bones cannot take a fall as well and how the fall affected my heart and who do I have to take care of me and I should not go out at night and all these condescending smiles that are the look of the middle age who can now brag how they take care of the "elderly" as if the "elderly" were children who no longer have control over their bodily functions or how their body is cared for.

I think the worst thing that I have seen on TV was and is this series on "Trading Places"...!?! I only see it as bragging rights among the middle age - look how well I take care of my parents - or my parents won't let me take care of them as I think --

But the big problem I have is when we help others in need, like the folks in New Orleans - did that help mean we were trading places with them - trading places infers a role reversal - a power issue - a control issue of who has the power over us!!!!

Big deal - so I fell - I fell and broke my arm several times during my life - I have broken my arm when I was a kid, again in my 40s and in my 50s and only a few years ago while I was still in my 60s. It was a let's see what we have here with x-rays and casts to be removed in 6 weeks - no admonistrations about doing whatever it was I did to break the arm - or admonistrations to stop doing whatever I did at a certain time or place where I broke the arm - just treatment.

I am thinking this is not something we can alter easily - however, I think an email to whatever station I see that is showing seniors as "needy" without equally showing them as capable. I remember the women, in fact I think she was a nun, who was in the marathons till she finally couldn't do it and she was in her 70s.

Oh it is nice to be pampered - however, everytime we take pampering we are feeding the image of having to be taken care of in a patronizing way rather than as we would anyone who has a temporary need for care.

OH I am on a rant today - but have you noticed that advertisements that include older men are usually showing them nicely dressed in a suit with their silver hair in their well appointed office or vehicle - men as executives - where are the older women? In the garden with arthritis and in the kitchen with the family tomato sauce. Feeding the stereo version of the 1950s woman's role as a homemaker with less statue.

Where are the ads with the single, probably widowed women buying a vehicle or sitting at a board table - granted probably a volunteer service or church board rather then a fortune 500 company - but still a competent professional contribution to an organization and to the community of "man."

Oh I understand how ads prefer to use attractive examples of any age and now to be given that kind of respect we need to measure up to the models which is the problem with every age - but I do not think their are many who realize how much their "elders" do great work.

It takes making an obvious point that among the Oscar nominees are more seniors than juniors. I cannot see Helen Mirren or Meryl Streep being looked at as addled seniors - is it money - fame or what that makes the difference?

Barbara, I'm so sorry to hear about your fall and injuries. And the insults of the ER added to your injuries.

I hope your recovery goes smoothly without too much pain and inconvenience.

Your take on the NBC Nightly News Trading Places series is interesting. I have enjoyed the different attitudes and solutions about the problems involved.

I think one of the things that's happening now is all the emphasis on the Boomers. Like it or not, there are a lot of them, and, to get ratings and readership, media outlets are going to cater to them. About the first of the year, our newspaper started multiple daily articles about Boomers, usually one on the front page, and one in each of the interest sections. And there's a special area on their web page. I generally glance at them, but rarely read the articles in full.

Mary, not only they are they more numerous, but they have more money to spend and are not afraid of getting into debt like we are. They will inherit from their frugal parents who lived through the depression and had always saved for "a rainy day". Baby Boomers have more education and better jobs. They spend more and expect service, they will continue expecting it through their old age don't you think?

Barbara, how dreadful to go through that. I think we are a bunch of exceptional people even if nobody notices it, but we know. I think we are very lucky to still have all our marbles. Are we the exception?

Barbara, I sympathise with you concerning your fall and injuries. When I broke my hip, I'd had a fall a few days before when I was walking our big dog, apparently I thought we were going one way, and he had a different idea. I caught my toe on broken bitumen. The hip gave way one night a few days later, as I was walking down the hallway.

Some health person at the Hospital said to me "What were you doing walking around the house at night?" in that censoring tone. I was stunned, I said "Excuse me?" I was 59! I did feel better though when they told me there would be a delay in my Operation because they had to get a "younger" hip up from Sydney

.

I certainly learnt about that subtle putting down while I was there, even though they were very kind, and probably had that warm glow from helping the elderly haha.

It sounds so terrible and then to have to undergo that ER treatment...We are with you when as seniors we are treated like addlepated adults ,,,,,TO ARMS !!

I do have to say several baby boomers I know well have been very smart in handling their affairs Each had a nice home, adequate for the family needs,..It was always tempting to move up to something larger in a more expensive neighborhood but they didnt Instead they decided to spend the money a new home would have cost them and bought a motorhome , adequate for the thier family and have taken the girls so many different and interesting places, Each year for Christmas I recieve scrapbooks of the vacations ...they meet the husband;s sister's family at some campground and you can see they are enjoying life ...They prefer spending money on doing fun things ...and they still have a nice home more than adequate for when they are seniors like us..I hope more boomers are as sensible ...CHEERS TO US ,,and Barbara you are like me I have had my share of falls, mishaps etc and all when I was younger ...no suggested then I was also a bit of a problem ...SO GLAD YOU FEEL WELL ENOUGH TO SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS AND IDEAS ..anna

Fall? Barbara? Hope you are better. Seniors and advertising- a wonderful topic, guess I'm late but want to post two thoughts on the topic- 1- the change over the years in how seniors are depicted (?used) by companies hawking products. 2- the wide disparity in the 'picture' depending on the product- for example "I fell and can't get up", those electric scooter commercials and EdMcMann et al. selling life insurance, reverse mortgages and new diabetic blood testing instruments as compared to Cialis, Viagra and 'living the dream commercials.

I think in addition to seeing us as a cash-cow generation, the ad companies are using the three stages of aging markers to segment their markets. I'd be interested in data that tells us how younger people view 'us' as a result of ad stereotypes.

I saw a new-to-me commercial tonight that I just howled over! It was an ad for a "new" product from Sunsweet for - get this - "Plum Smart". Now there's prune juice for Boomers with a new jazzed up name. What a hoot!

And, I noticed a couple of years ago that you no longer buy "prunes" - you buy "dried plums". Well, of course, that's what prunes are - but now you don't have to buy "prunes" like your grandmother used to do.

Prunes have gotten a bad rap. Dried plums sounds much cooler.

My father used to travel a lot for his work. He used rate the hotels where he stayed by how many prunes they would give him for breakfast. "That was only a three prne hotel" or "Wow! A seven prune hotel". Now, they would all be "no-prune hotels".

Just a short note.......I work part time in a facility which used to be named "Elder Care".......It has been re-named to "Adult Care"....I think ageism permeates our culture and of course advertising just perpetuates it..............

Good to see you and yes adult care sounds better ...all adults are not elders...since 21 is considered the age of majority ie you can vote etc and drink and are considered an adult...and for various reasons some that age need care ...While age may indicate you are a senior adult ....it doesnt follow that your mind is no longer intact or that anyone giving you care should treat you less honorably than if you were younger....anna

My most ignominious moment - losing my balance and falling down the front stairs right in front of my daughter and SIL and family. Even though I fell on concrete I only got skinned knees did not break any bones although I put all the weight of the fall on my hands to save me from getting my head bashed on the concrete. Some of us do have disabilities of different sorts and I think because of these we should not be pigeonholed as old and decrepid by the younger generation. I have very good mobility but do have a balance problem from time to time. Because of this I have to be more careful than others of my age when rushing about.

I think back to my grandmother who at my age looked much older. She dressed older too. She was very quick on her feet and very active but she still had a different but loving relationship with her grands than I have with mine. I wonder if when I am 85 I will still be wearing my jeans and Tshirts? I hope so!

And then... there's places like the John Campbell Craft School which I think is the one that hosts grandparenting craft classes- a special week or weekend intensive where granparent and grandchild spend bonding time engaged in learning a craft. Interesting to me how different, or not, the perception of 'elders'/'adults' is to those young folk as compared to those who see their grandparents generation through the eyes of the media, or their own parents.

Barbara- you are healing?

Well, Carolyn, since you shared your moment of "humiliation", I'll go ahead and share mine.

A few weeks ago I was walking up the short hill from my neighbor's house, along the heavily pine-strewn road. As I neared my driveway I saw a piece of scrap paper on the ground, just out of reach so, deciding to be a good Samaritan, I stepped over to pick it up, not noticing that the pine needles had hidden the curb from sight.

Well, I went sprawling, having tripped over the hidden curb, and landed face down but as I was mid-flight, I saw a truck heading up the road, right in my path. I was not afraid of being run over but more that the driver would see me in such an ungraceful act. As I fell, I tried to get up as quickly as possible but darn it all, just couldn't get up. Such a helpless feeling.

But, quick as could be, the driver got out, came over and helped me, inquired so kindly as to whether or not I was OK. I assured him I was fine (blushing with shame), thanked him profusely, and he walked me into my driveway.

But that's not all - the next day he came to our door and asked if I was still OK (making me blush all over again!) and then insisted on taking care of the pine needles piled up along the road leading to our drive. I really didn't want him to (pride, you know?) but my husband was coming down with the flu and he insisted. Before long, he had taken care of the whole roadway on either side of our drive, and the whole of our driveway, too.

I neglected to get his name or address (I'd never seen him before) so haven't even been able to thank him properly.

Anyway, I guess we both survived, eh?

YiLiLin, don't you love JCCampbell Folk School? We've been a couple of times - it is great. But to stay on topic, Elderhostel also has grandparent/grandchild programs. We've not been to any of them, though. They're mostly for under 12-years-old, and ours are older than that.

Diane embarrassment does that doesn't it - you loose all sense of being grateful - your story reminded me of a lesson I learned during Advent this year - no matter how old I seem to learn a lesson in living at every turn - well anyhow I decided to purchase and read a book of daily sermons prepared for Advent - early was this lesson sermon that knocked my sox off as they say - using words so well to really get into how we like to please, surprise and bring joy to others with our Christmas preparations and traditions, we make a big issue of giving to our loved ones, acquaintances, strangers, charities. Then the twist - the real lesson of Christmas is to be open to accepting with a simple thank you showing how the miracle of the day was given to us, as it was given to Mary without effort on our part and all the celebrations we create keeps us from accepting that uncomfortable feeling of accepting this gift.

The reading opened my eyes to how hard it is for me to accept a gift and how much I prefer to watch the faces of those who I have presented with a gift even if it is diner I have prepared.

Thank goodness I read that sermon because when I came back from my Christmas visit to my daughter's my neighbor had built me an entire knew gate and swept off my patio of all the fallen leaves. At first I thought I must return something of equal value and then the sermon kicked in - I did bring back a simple gift of mountain butter and honey but I was thankful and tried not to feel embarrassed by his generosity. I know, pass it on - that's when I reviewed and my life has always been about giving to others and this time I had to learn to be humble and accept the gift. Sounds like your fall was the opportunity for you to have a glimpse at being the recipient of an unexpected gift.

Back to Ageism in Advertisement - one of the 10 basic rules of copywriting is to know your audience. I am thinking there are too many ad writers who assume that all seniors are one homogeneous group. We have three or four levels of childhood - infants, toddlers, pre-school that we group as early childhood - then we have the elementary and Junior High that we call childhood or pre-teen - and finally we have teens with maybe young adults thrown in to label seniors in high school and those under the age of 21 who may be in college.

Now that is just a 21 year time span with all those labels - what about seniors who can range from their late 50s through to their 90s. I would think the needs of someone 58 are different than someone 65 or someone 78 or 86 much less 92.

I was married with 3 children before Elvis hit the scene and yet, because of camping experiences during my children's camping years I enjoy and know the words to most of the folk music of the early 60s - someone only approaching 60 was not alive during WWII and has no memory of collecting tin foil, scrape metal, newspapers, rolling bandages, baking butterless, eggless, sugarless cakes or knitting argyle sox for a guy which was all the rage right after the war was over. And someone born in the 1920s would have memories of unpaved roads, few cars, and most homes not having electricity or indoor plumbing. They would be young adults during WWII and are the generation that is associated with big bands and an opportunity we take for granted today - college - colleges because of the GI Bill opened its doors so that it was no longer an opportunity that only 5% of the nation's population had experienced as before WWII.

Just those differences alone I would think makes it necessary to define senior generations differently and address the principal selling position [PSP] of products or services benefits from the buyer's perspective.

We sorta have the oldest generation Identified when they are called the Greatest Generation, then there is the silent generation but that really isn't a label that sells very well as a department store will ID an area in large letters as Toddlers, Pre-Teens etc.

I am thinking maybe if we had labels we could feel proud to be associated with then maybe we would begin to see more senior appropriate ads with models showing the typical energy level of that age group.

Hmm wonder how many of the ad writers for our target audience are our age?

I don't think John Campbell and programs like it are too much off topic, especially if we can reach out and determine if these kind of grandparent/grandchild craft/art programs influence intergenerational perceptions.

Awhile back, can't remember when, intergenerational housing was pretty much the rage- various housing programs that had either x% of units for the 'elderly' or if the housing was built with senior moneyh then x% was for younger folk. I think Peter Cooper Village in NY might have been one of these but not sure...and wasn't itRichmond or some other place in Va. that pretty much led this initiative?

Actually, the more I notice the TV ads, the more I think the sponsors are getting the right idea. More and more, I see healthy, attractive, active, intelligent older people taking roles in the ads.

Magazines are lagging behind, so far as I can tell, but magazines are definitely composed for a specific target population. Even so, you would think, for example, that "Parents" magazine would realize that a large number of children are now being raised by grandparents. And, they would no doubt appreciate all the help they can get!

Babi

AARP recently had an article on how to care for aging skin in order to keep it "more youthful looking'.........don't you love it? Oh yes, it also addressed the health issues but had to go into "sagging" and "wrinkles"............geez................

When someone asks me for my definition of "elderly", I tell them "elderly is ten years older than I am whenever someone asks me that question"!

hehehehe I'm with you Bill - just do not feel old nor do I think I think old - ah so - it could be I am blind to my own age and at times that is where my mind wonders and I scare myself. When something happens that I must do some hard work to get through I never can tell if it is hard because I am older or because it is just hard and I am belly aching. It sure is no fun trying to ignore so many influences that are delighted to set me aside as old, from press to those I meet each day - I often day dream living off in some remote area raising my own food totally removed from social influence. This day dream has me imagining I could believe in myself without dithering.

I am raising vegetables in large containers. Picked my first beautiful bell pepper today - lots more to come too. I grow in containers because I have fibromyalgia and psoriatic arthritis and digging over a vegetable patch is too painful for me. I still have flower beds however but easy care type of plants. You can even grow vegs on your balcony if you want!

I don't feel old so long as my mind is clear and alert. But when a mental 'file drawer' gets stuck, and I can't recall info. that I know that I know, I have to recognize 'age' creeping in. Or when I've been sitting for a couple of hours reading or on the computer, and I find myself stiff and somewhat bent when I get up...the awful truth forces itself upon me once more. I ain't as young as I used to be!

Babi

Babi, I like to think that the "stuck file drawer" is because I'm thinking about so many other important things. And gosh, I've been playing the "why did I come in here" game since I was 40.

HOHO. Oh, yes, my least favorite game, Pedlin. I'll try your gambit re. the stuck file drawer, but I'm not sure I'll be very convincing.

Babi

I think we all play 'why did I come in here' game and have since we were young moms - it is just that now everything that does not go perfect we are sure it is because of age...

I am really thinking we are all brainwashed... once we feel a twinge we think it is because we are old - if we felt twinges when we were younger we simply favored the area and went on with our lives - now if you are like me I immediately think I better not or I can't because my body said I shouldn't...

I want to shake myself of this can't idea - the majority of me is just fine and as healthy as anyone - if I do not use that part of me than it will be gone - If Helen Mirren can look that fabulous at 61 then there is vitality after 60.

Just figured it out - President Carter was 64 years old when he started to build houses with his organization Habitat for Humanity - he was 75 when he helped do the building of 293 houses in the Philippines.

Here he is now at age 82 going into the back areas of Africa and helping to rid these areas of diseases we can hardly imagine - like the Guinea worm - I never heard of such a thing - but this is an area without wells - the water is from rain that fills potholes in the land and worm eggs are laid which are in this drinking water - a year later after drinking an egg it has hatched and grown inside the body. The worm starts its exit by breaking a hole through the skin and a foot to three foot long worm exits the body - can you imagine such a thing - and here Jimmy Carter at age 82 is doing something to erraticate this problem.

I do not think only folks with money can make a difference - and I am also seeing that he still plays baseball each summer, writes his books and raises a hammer. Rosalynn turns 80 this summer - there are folks we could imagine as role models - they neither try to look like movie stars and they are active making a difference.

It is hard to find advertisement to identify with - and I have to agree with the statement that the ads are getting better - but it is difficult to find role models - I think for some of us the Carter's regardless of their politics could be role models.

Kiwi Lady, I'm looking to grow veggies in containers this year and was wondering what sort of containers you use. That's impressive that you have bell peppers.

Looks like several of us either want to or are growing our own food - I thought I would share this photo on my Real Estate Daily-E-News addressing the housing needs of boomers Ad for the Boomer market

yes Barb and Jimmy Carter the author- in keeping with the curious minds topic just want to ad- how rarely we see photos or ads about him, even his book promos- and for habitat often we see either his grandson or ads with young carpenters, college student volunteers etc.

one area where I do see some pr is when 'elderly' folk return or go to college for first time and graduate, especially if graduating from same institution as a grandchild- I remember when my mother went to college (after getting her GED at age 65) she was thrilled, so were professors especially in her writing class. She brought to that class the 'old fashioned' use of grammar and vocabulary and correct punctuation, and they all enjoyed the different viewpoint she'd brought to the class. I'm all for this rather than segregating seniors into special classes- and anyone reading who is interested in returning to school I'd urge to join the regular population it is mutually beneficial.

Annie I began a few years ago with large buckets but have graduated today to very large plastic pots. The most expensive of which is $9.95 and that grows two tomato plants or two pepper plants. You can grow one chard plant in one ordinary household size bucket. You put holes in the bottom with a drill to drain it. The buckets cost about 69c. I also have an old plastic paddling pool belonging to my baby grands which I drilled holes in and filled with soil and compost and grow many herbs in. I now have a compost bin in the garden and only need to buy potting soil each year. I like to put half potting soil and half compost in my containers when I first plant them out. When I plant out I use layers of soil and then a thin layer of blood and bone in each container. I usually do three layers of each. Then after that I feed with a liquid plant food. I am really pleased with the bell peppers and they are fruiting very prolifically. Its fun and easy work to look after the containers and no hard digging. Help may be needed for filling very large containers but after that its a doddle.

Carolyn

When I go to school for my grands grandparents day each year, the kids really love me taking notice of their work. They all push to get me to go and see what they have done and are so pleased to have a granny ( many of them have grandparents overseas) interact with them. Many of them now call me "Granny". Brooke says the kids "think you are cool Granny". I really love the children too and they are so open and friendly. I think seniors and kids relate really well and each has a great deal to give the other. I really look forward to grandparents day each year.

Kiwi thank you for the planting information. It is very helpful to me.

Our local paper(freebie) did a whole series of "interviewing a senior", with Grade 12's. There were only 1, or at the most 2, to a page so they had a fair coverage. It certainly makes you think when you see a photo of a frail old man, and then read that he parachuted out of a burning plane in Germany, and shot his way out of enemy territory with a pistol!

There should be something written about the use of seniors as jurors. The judicial system has a respect for older people judging by the number that serve on juries. I swear the courthouse here has my name on an available list, by the number of cases I've been called for.

Wow I am impressed with the photos used on this site - Alliance for Aging Research wait for just a minute and the photos change...

Thoughts I have because of researching this topic:

I am seeing that aging is taken as Ageism by both the younger and the older generations - I think we label, discount, joke about, criticize, and trivialize anything we fear. Those behaviors are included in a list of abusive relationships. I think we sometimes are guilty of abusing ourselves because of frustration and resentment that are common feelings when abilities are diminished.

Then I had to look at what abilities are really diminished - yes, there is reduced physical ability that sometimes includes life-altering illness that often accompanies age. However, greater I think, there is a ceiling on opportunity.

This is a nation of opportunity. All of a sudden because of age and reduced energy level and physical strength, along with retirement from the jobs that were our opportunity to the security we imagined or, to make the next promotion or, have the ability to make significant income to hire those who could help us when our body is tired, is all diminished and that is scary. The kind of fear that is below the surface that we still believe we can overcome.

I think that reduced opportunity is what scares the younger generation and that is why they do not see seniors as wise so much as needy. Of course, with all the gurus telling us how to invest and care for our body, and if we hadn't for any number of reasons, then it is too easy to blame ourselves for being needy rather than finding realistic advice.

Individually I think we carry a burden of proving we are not needy. Most of the time people want to say and do the right thing, but our society does not prepare us adequately to handle the trauma of lost opportunity and loss of physical strength. Red Hat ladies may be fun, laughing age in the face but, how well are groups like this preparing us with information how to handle things that have been easy suddenly become difficult to impossible to accomplish.

Many of us never had to be a squeaky wheel in order to get the respect and assistance we need - now we must become that squeaky wheel which means more phone calls, letter writing and awareness of what is disrespectful, called Ageism.

I am thinking that by changing advertisements attitude towards age that will change societies attitude towards age - but now I wonder if that may help but the real problem is facing the loss of opportunity, that we have few models within our families of how to make the changes required to live happily with reduced energy and circumstances. In addition, the separation of age groups that became prevalent after WWII allows us less tolerance or understanding between age groups.

I think ads are less and less offensive as caricature of Ageism however, I think we have to become more outspoken with our own self talk as well as, how we see or hear others treating us.

Few of us are disabled and yet, I think we can learn a lot from how the newly disabled are counseled to get on with a joyfilled life. Because, like it or not, we cannot do what we could when we were 45 years old.

As to measuring what we can do - that to me is the hard part - realizing and believing that almost everything we dreamed of doing can still be possible. We just may have to modify quite a bit to achieve it. It is the modifications that I would like to see celebrated rather than used as the fearful rational to buy some product that promotes the idea that we are sidelined in the opportunity stream.

Thanks Barbara for another wonderful Curious Minds, you never disappoint us. It's true that we are less physically able than before, but that could be used to take on other tasks and make good use of the experience we acquired during our life.

We can take time we have now that we didn't have when our children were still at home like writing or crafts or painting etc.

Ads contents are not a priority for me or I would sit down and write someone about it. I buy a product mostly because someone has recommended it to me, or it has been around long enough to prove its value. Also I mistrust the quality an ad claims a product has, they seldom tell you what the downside of the product is. I research a lot products that I take internally, prescriptions especially. I use a lot of natural products.

Thank you once again.

Today I heard a report that the economy is in serious danger because of entitlements like social security. Nothing about the "war" that is costing billions per day. Nor the payments we are making to other nations to keep them on our side (?). Nor the tax relief for millionaires and billionaires. Nor the coming war with Iran. No, it is the moms and pops, stealing money from the government in the name of entitlements. I'm so ashamed.

Sounds like the old story doesn't it - if only I didn't have to help out my mom and dad - I guess our example was not enough to teach...

Mmm its an International complaint in the media. "Our old folks are increasing in numbers" "The social security is costing x amount. How will we pay for it?" Those journalists forgot that it was me and my generation who paid for their education and subsidised their University studies and health care. I think there is a general resentment fuelled by the media against the aged. Govts waste millions on think tanks and advisors to do work they should be doing. If they are not qualified for the work they should not stand for office in my opinion.

Barbara, your post #757 is a marvel. Since I read it that "opportunity" thought has been coursing thru my mind. How to be realistic and continue to enjoy challenges.

And this business with the younger generations, whether children or neighbors - I find it quite quite disconcerting. It seems like to put us behind blinders, as if we are not even here, is the way they live.

And the posts about Soc Sec being the problem with our government monies is so wrong. All the war $$$$$. I hope anyone who reads these posts makes sures to write news commentators as they hear that re-spoken.

~Marj

Thank you for participating.

Our next Curious Minds will begin March 16 and the subject will be Education. We'll look forward to seeing you then!

This discussion is now READ ONLY until mid March.

jane

We're going to be in their hands ~~ Will they be ready?

Too Much Homework?

School Choice

No Child Left Behind

Home Schooling

Testing

Character education

Education Fact Sheets

"Selfishly, we want our world run by people who know what they're doing;
selflessly, we want every child to fully develop his potential."

Please share your thoughts. Discussion Leader: Pedln
This topic starts HERE

Welcome to An Education Potpourri, where we can share our thoughts about what's taking place in grades K through 12.

A recent Time Magazine article tells of Rip Van Winkle wandering about in the world of the 21st Century, understanding nothing about iPods, email, cell phones, DVDs, Google and YouTube. He's completely lost until he wanders into a classroom -- "Ah, a school," he says, "only now the blackboards are green." Is he right? Have our schools changed so little? Are the youngsters we know acquiring the skills that will help them successfully maneuver in today's world?

And do we care? Is this important to us? Selfishly we want the people running our world to know what they're doing -- so that the planes will be on time, the banks won't have errors, the water will be pure, the books will be written and songs will be sung. Selflessly, we want all children to have a chance to develop their full potential.

So, what do you think?
Are vouchers and school choice the answer?
Charter schools -- successful or not?
No Child Left Behind -- does it work or is it a burden?
Homework and tests -- too much or too little?
If it were held today, would you vote for a bond issue or tax increase for you school district?

For starters, here's my take on School Choice. My grandkids live in Seattle and like one of the links above said, in Seattle everyone chooses. Right.

Starting in 5th grade the kids start looking at and visiting middle schools. Then they list the ones they want, in order. Supposedly, the closest one will be a shoo-in. But not guaranteed. But if they list some other school first and don't get it, they don't necessarily get their second choice or the closest school and could go anywhere.

My granddaughter picked the closeby middle school and went there. Next year she'll be in high school and has sent in her choices. There is no guarantee she'll get her first choice, which is the closest, and there are some schools where her parents don't want her to go, so my daughter has already made a non-refundable deposit to a private school in case she doesn't get the first choice.

And, more on choice . . . .

And, if that weren't enough choice, the PTA's raise funds and then decide if they'll be used for a librarian or a music teacher or an art teacher. So much choice that there isn't even the same curriculum throughout the district. THAT boggles my mind. And what about the PTA's that can't raise $100,000 or $200,000. When it's choice like that, my thumbs are down.

Pedln, How is the decision of assigning students to the schools. Is it done by lottery? Are grades considered?

In smaller population towns/villages, there is no choice. And the private schools, 20 miles away, are parochial, and not really welcoming to all students.

We have no first or even second-hand knowledge of how school choice is working. Our youngest grandkids are now HS seniors, and all of them have grown up in small towns where there was only one public school available.

Philosophically, I am totally in favor of public schools - always have been. Home schooling, IMHO, has always seemed a way of keeping children away from the real world, and making it difficult for a child to function when they do have to cope out in the big, bad world. In our part of the country, at least in the early days of home schooling, it was done to indoctrinate children in a family's particular religious orientation, and to keep children from being exposed to "others". Maybe that's not totally the case any more, but (again IMHO) that stigma lingers on.

Chattanooga has an interesting situation with three, very old (100+ years), private schools. For generations, all the "powers-that-be" have sent their kids to those schools, so we feel that the public schools have been, and will always be, short-changed by those powers. It's a shame. Our kids were grown and gone when we moved here, so we have no first-hand knowledge.

This is an intesting topic. Thanks.

Mary Z & others. Hello. Interesting discussions. (What a mixed blessing and "brave new world" technology has given us.)Mary, surely you were being coy about the home-schooling? I've been close (while teaching before retirement at a small private school) to an authorized trainer of home schoolers. and she probably celebrated the demise of Molly Ivins! She and her clients are conservative in about every conceivable way. Outside activities can make a small difference for these children, but I feel sorry for them.

I worry that adding the job of teacher to other family-oriented duties is generally overwhelming, regardless of the parent's ability. And if she's doing the job right and has no housekeeper, what kind of time can she have let for just herself? (True, many school teachers are trying to do it all--with disatrous results. But at least they're getting out of the house and seeing a few grownups.)

Sadly, as Mary suggests, many of these (nearly always) moms are motivated more by politics than by ability. Sometimes they're coerced by relatives to home school. It's been noticed that at least a couple of mom child killers in recent years were home-schooling multiple children. The mom/wife/church/school, etc. burdens sustained by these women were unimaginable.

There is a chain of private schools in the US (name?) in which the same teacher takes the students through eight years of learning. It's an apparently efficient and fairly complete--if questionable--education. The children, however, go home to a loving parent who's somebody else!

Still, there may be local conditions so untenable that parents have no alternative. This is not a country where even parents of means often send their children away to boarding school.

Government lack of money?--yes, war billions and corporate welfare.

Hi Everyone...ever since I took our Mayor's adult literacy and ESL courses I've wondered what is and has been going on in K-12 to use as a sort of barometer in understanding part of our own literacy problems. I didn't know where to go to get that information.

I'd like very much to sit in on this discussion. I have a feeling there will be teachers and librarians and others connected with these wonderful years in education (at least in my day!) whose experience will be very beneficial to my adult students and to myself as well.

Thanks, Alliemae

I'm very much in favor of school choice. Many school principals and superintendents are afraid of it because they "might lose students" and therefore get less state support. Schools doing a poor job WILL lose students, which will make them "shape up".

When you think about it, education in the U.S. is the most socialistic thing we have. The government runs the public schools and gives you no choice of where to send your children. I'm also for merit pay. Teachers who do well should NOT be paid the same as poor teachers. Teacher unions say that there's no way to fairly judge teacher quality. That's just plain wrong. Teachers in industry are paid on the merit system, and it works quite well. The key is a good manager or principal, with training in evaluating employees.

Welcome everyone, so good to see you here and to hear what you have to say.

Alliemae,for sure you can "sit in," and I hope you'll tell us more about your Mayor's literacy and ESL classes as well, and how you happened to take them.

Pat, I have no idea how Seattle schools make their final decision. I just find it appalling that kids and their families have to make this decision twice in their school career -- for middle and for high school. From what my daughter says, the initial intentions were good -- to give everyone more choice. But my kids went to school in a district with one junior high, one public high school, and were well-prepared when they graduated.

Mary and Barbara, I have mixed feelings about home schooling. As you have pointed out, it forces a tremendous committment on the parents. From some of the articles I've read recently, as home schooling numbers increase (over 2.1 million in the US), the "isolation" motivation is becoming less a factor. Sometimes parents want to offer their children something different, more challenges. I would never want to do it, but it can offer unique opportunities for short periods of time -- like a year -- to pursue special interests and travel. Below -- from the Home Schooling link above.

"A homeschooling parent who considers herself more of a “general contractor” than a teacher, Carla Jentoft educated her three children in the family’s Circle Pines, Minn., home. Having studied abroad during college, this high school valedictorian and her husband wanted to provide their children with a rigorous education including a solid foundation in the humanities. Unsatisfied with local schools and armed with Carla Jentoft’s teaching degree from St. Olaf College, they decided to homeschool. The Jentofts enrolled their children in art and music classes and began to build a comprehensive home library. They never bought a television and focused on ways to bring their family closer.

It seems to have worked. While she is reticent on other topics, Karin Jentoft’s face spreads in a wide grin as she recounts classic family tales. Carla Jentoft calls her daughter and oldest son, Leif P. Jentoft, “best friends.” The siblings played and recorded together as a classical guitar duo until he left for Olin College, an engineering college in Massachusetts, two years ago. Now his sister has joined him in the Northeast, and the duo has reunited and recently made their Massachusetts debut at a local restaurant."

Hi Happy Bill, we were posting about the same time. You raise some interesting points. Do your feelings about school choice include vouchers?

I've said enough about Seattle, other than some aspect of the school placement issue there is now before the Supreme Court. But last year in New York City, there were also thousands of high school students who DID NOT get into schools of their choosing.

Merit Pay -- now that's a hot issue. I was a high school librarian for 22 years. We did not have merit pay -- it was all based on years of experience plus education, with salaries frozen at certain levels if advanced degrees were not received. At one point, the district tried to implement "Career Ladders," a form of merit pay, but then found out it could not afford it.

My daughter is a middle school math teacher with two degrees, Bachelors and Masters in Special Education, 12 years experience and qualified to teach secondary math which she has been teaching for 7 years.

She teaches in a low income (most are on free or reduced lunch), and mostly minority (a good percentage take ESL-English as a Second Language classes. She has had a number of students in and out of the juvenile justice system. Most of the parents don't speak English and really don't care if their learn or not. Alot of them have the school's phone number "blocked" on their phones. Some people call it a "ghetto" school. She spends her evenings and alot of the weekend grading papers, doing lesson plans etc. She also spends alot of her own money on things the school does not provide. She is considered an excellent teacher by administration and her peers.

Out of 120 kids, she has some good kids who do well and want to learn. However, most are very apathetic and don't simply care if they learn or not. A common refrain is "if I don't pass, I'll just go to summer school - it's free."

Now we go across town (about 10 miles) to a "rich" school. The parents are involved, most of the kids want to learn and they do well on tests and the school is ranked high on the state mandated tests.

Her school/kids don't pass the TAKS tests, where across town they do. She works just as hard or maybe even harder than the teachers across town, but she wouldn't qualify for merit pay because her school "flunked" the test. Some kids know the information, but just don't test well. My son was one of those.

Ever since "No Student Left Behind" (or as teachers call it "No Teacher Left Standing:-) ), everything is geared to "The Test".

Mary

One of those tables with multi-petitions for voters was outside the librarythe other day. The last one in the stack was a measure to ensure that teachers' pay would be based on "Merit" not tenure. I argued with the petitioner that merit was the wrong issue, that it was pc-talk for other issues which weren't being addressed. He shrugged; after all, he was only collecting the signatures. Another petition required high school graduates to be English speaking or not diploma. I didn't sign that one either.

I am having second considerations about students graduating with a command of the English language - I have several friends who went to college in Spain and in France and several friends whose children are exchange students in Switzerland, Germany and France and none of the European schools teach in English so that in order to learn you must quickly learn the language and get a tutor to help you through until you have a good command of the language.

There are many instances that I do not agree English only is appropriate but graduating from High School I think English would be a second language that must be passed just like some students do take a foreign language, although not mandatory, all students must pass their English classes and to me that should include all students - but then as I say I go back to other nations where it is common for people to know several languages since they all live so close to each other however, the school is conducted on one language that regardless your native tongue you must speak in order to pass the classes.

As to home schooling - I have seen it both ways - some are getting a great education and others are simply doing work on the kitchen table amidst laundry and a harassed mother with a baby crying in the next room. Previewing property I have seen it all... But then there are great activities that I notice groups of home school moms attend with their children - in the arts, history, nature and even discussions on government. And so like any effort it is as great as the effort put into it...

barb65 - yes, I was trying to be nice in my feeling about home schooling. I do agree with everything you said - and you have the experience of being a teacher to base your comments on. Of our personal knowledge, a young man who John worked with was a member of a fundamentalist church that believed the world was created in 4004BC, complete with fossils, etc. He and his wife home-schooled their children. I felt so sorry for the kids - they're adults now, and I've wondered how they turned out.

We go to places like the Grand Canyon and other wonders of nature, and to places of prehistoric settlements like the desert Southwest in the US or in Europe, and wonder how these folks deal their children's questions. I assume mostly they just don't visit such places or museums.

Sorry - I'll get off that soapbox.

I have no great thoughts about how to ensure the quality of public schools. Certainly a lot of it depends on the income/education level of the parents. They will demand the most of the local schools. And surely as was said, testing requires that the teacher spend all his/her time "teaching to the test". And that simply is NOT teaching.

And, of course, a lot of this is not a new problem. Our girls graduated from high school in the mid-to-late 1970s, in a fast-growing southern suburb. Parents who were transferred to the area with large companies from "up north" raged and complained about how awful the schools were. Well, maybe..... but one of our four was a National Merit Scholar and another was a National Merit finalist. So there is education there to be absorbed, even if not everybody chooses or is encouraged to grab it.

Redbud, you bring up some interesting comments about disparities between schools, such as e -- conomically disadvantaged vs. advantaged. Your daughter and her colleagues have to work doubly hard to get students interested in learning. At the other school the teachers probably have to deal a lot with parents wondering why their child didn't get a better grade and was the teacher really getting the material across.

"No teachers left standing" -- the NCLB seems to have brought out a lot of people talking about testing, and now Washington Post has articles saying Congress wants to change some of the requirements of this act to give the states more flexibility. (I'll see if I can find those articles.) What I don't understand about the NCLB act is does it or does it not affect all schools? Supposedly it's only concerned with those schools receiving Title I money.

Mrs. Sherlock -- good point -- merit masking other issues.
Barbara, you're right about our foreign exchange students having to pick up the language of their host country school quickly. The ones from our school seemed to manage okay, but I think they also found that theirk host parents and siblings had learned at least a smattering of English, as a second language. Those students who came to our high school as exchange students were a mixed bag, with most having had some English prep. Those who didn't had a much harder time.

My feelings are that we don't do enough in this country to foster foreign language study, at least not in my town. Very limited until high school. My Seattle grandson, now 4th grade, has been in a Spanish immersion program since kindergarten. Math and science are taught in Spanish and the other classes in English. He was lucky to get in the Spanish section --because he had an older sibling in the school. The other section was Japanese immersion and some parents who wanted their children in Spanish were disappointed when they ended up in the Japanese program.

Lots of inequalities in education across the country. Is that good, bad? Who should have the say -- the local districts, the state, the federal govt.? Remember gazillion years ago when folks said, you don't want any federal funds, then they'll tell you what to do.

This discussion is very important. To attain some credibility for this and future posts, my educational experience includes teaching from 8th grade through college as well as higher education administration. all in all close to 30 years. I've seen fads and fantasies, good programs and bad, along with good teachers and bad as well as enlightened teacher education programs and some where I believe some of the bad education out there is because those in the 'teacher' role are victims of bad preparation.

So my first provocative statement is one of the problems with US education is the loss of vision and mission in terms of what is education for?... is it to engender critical thinking?, give workplace skills? encourage the liberal arts and well rounded individual?

I am not saying any of the above is right or wrong, but a clear sense of vision and mission is necessary so that the myriad programs and funding streams have a touchtone for program development, expected outcomes and evaluation.

makes no difference home, in a public or private K-12 or a public or private community college or university...if there's not sense of focus for an expected outcomes that addresses the 'big picture' of education there's not good education.

My daughter started to teach after a successful business career and being an at home mom till her oldest was in the 6th grade - She has taught now in 2 high schools each in a different county and each having an enrollment from different economic households.

She expected the horrendous family life of her students in the school trying to educate the lowest economic section of town and county but she was not prepared for the same number of horrendous situations in the school located in the middle to upper middle income area of town. She teaches 4 classes a day and among the students she has 3 who have one parent in jail and another who has both parents in jail - she has 5 girls that she knows about who have babies up to the age of 2 at home being cared for by their mothers and they are only 16 or 17. She has several who when they go home they never know if one of their family members will be dead since alcohol and drinking along with the fights are a regular daily occurance. She has a handful of boys and girls who she still does not know their story but they are lucky to attend class one day ever two weeks. And this is in a nice upper middle income part of town.

Not to mention there are a couple of handicapped kids and a couple ADD kids that bounce off the wall and she has to keep them busy or they're wrecking something in the classroom. All this is not what we think of when we think of a teacher's ability to teach - nor is it what we think of when we wonder why kids are dropping out of school or not passing or just getting by.

My daughter has taught math/science to 5th and 6th graders for 15 years and math/science to 7th and 8th graders for the following 14 years in the same school district.

She has 5 different classes, groups of children, each day, no class less than 30.

In one class of 32 8th graders, she has 9 LD (Learning Disability) children. The district is required to mainstream these children. That brings down the test scores, puts the teacher and school on alert, and leaves the rest of the class with less than enough education.

Pedln, NCLB affects all schools, not just Title 1, at least in Texas.

You are right that many of the economically advantaged parents are calling the teachers frequently and are very involved in their kid's classes. Too much so at times according to a friend of Cathie's who transferred to a new school across town when it opened. She has parents emailing or calling her constantly. She even had to get an unlisted telephone number because some of them were calling her at home.

Patwest, Cathie taught Special Ed (LD) for five years before she burned out. Her district mainstreamed these kids for two years. Like you said, everyone was shortchanged. When they went back to separate classes, she had 25 LD kids per class. You can't teach 25 kids math on 25 separate levels and be effective. Therefore, she is now teaching regular 7th grade math

She would like to go back into Special Ed, but not in the district she is in.

Mary

So many interesting issues here. I would like to mention the learning of a second language. In today's reality there are no economic frontiers between countries any more even if there are still language frontiers. Like Yililin said, the big picture has to be examined in education.

If the big picture means having a blue collar job, then it is not necessary to know another language except English if you live in the US - in passing not every student has the energy or the capacity to go beyond high school at the most - BUT if a person has to hold a job in a company that does business outside the US, which most large companies do, then knowing a second language is very important. It is also a cultural asset.

In Quebec I grew up in a francophone family with parents who knew English enough to speak it together sometimes but never to us children, but I realized early on that if I didn't know English I would be greatly disadvantaged and at 15 I sacrificed a lot to concentrate on learning English. Nowadays, if you don't know English well here in Quebec, you don't go very far in your career, but a large percentage of school teachers are unilingual French.

A Diplomat or anyone involved in International Relations needs to know two or more languages in order to effectively reach their goal when negotiating a peace agreement.

Ever wonder why US education predominantly has students move in blocks of 50 minutes or so from one subject to another, and in some settings including middle school, high school and college the subject move also requires a physical move from one room to another?

EVer wonder if that is the most effective way to learn?

Well I KNEW you would come up with an interesting discussion..I have read all of the posts and feel relieved to know my children used public schools and did well ..but the schools here changed a great deal and classes as well..in 72 when we moved here the schools wer segregated and while my children were still in school were intregated ..all sorts of private schools sprung up mostly because this is a peninsula and to integrate meant bussing children from one end to the other...which was a 30 -45 min ride each way depending on the traffic which can be horrendous...

the schools in the predominately black area were old schools from the early developement of the city....not very well organized etc so the small private schools proliferated ...now 30 years later the neighborhoods are integrated and the long bus rides have disappeard... my friends who are school teachers found at all levels the worst part was dealing with children who had been affected by drug and dope abuse by the mother...

They needed special classes and techers who understood the problems ...which they didnt get ...and some of my friends retired early because they just felt at times they were baby sitting not teaching ..my last child graduated 21 years ago and all of my children (3) recieved an excellent education in the public schools. My courtesy grandchildren who lived across the street also did well but like my own children in advanced classes...

Since I was a volunteer in the school system I was not only amazed at the difference in the level of comprehension but was wondered how the children in the "regular " classes were ever going to get an adequate education ,. In one school with the advanced classes the spelling words for the third grade were listed on the black board..very advanced very appropiate but in the the 1-3 grades in the regular school most of the children could barely read at what I would consider a beginning level and spelling ...it consisted of simple words and even so few ever spelled them correctly..

Some I worked with I knew the family history, ... both parents worked; there were other children in the family younger who by age alone needed attention...it was such a sad situation ..I was almost glad when I recongized my hearing loss was hindering my ability to help,...There are still accelerated classes for the children who have the ability but I cant help but wonder what happens to those who dont?

Eloise, it's interesting to hear you talk about the need (or not) to know both English and French in Quebec. Several years ago I attended an Elderhostel in the English townships of Quebec. The innkeepers where we stayed told of the difficulties they had with their children in school. They had recently moved to the area and wanted their children in a school where English was taught, but the only children who could go to schools taught in ENglish were those whose parents had been to English schools. One of the other "hostelers" told of her son who had to know both French and English because he worked for the Canadian Govt., but in British Columbia where she said it wasn't necessary to know French.

And welcome, YiLiLin and Anna. Your comment about the need to focus on the purpose and objectives is right on target. And how true about the difficulties of mainstreaming everyone, trying to provide for everyone. Years ago I remember my teacher-mother talk about the Fed. law that said if a school district could not meet a child's educational needs within the district they'd have to pay for it outside the district. And yet it seems that almost a half-century later there are lots of needs not being met. But I have yet to hear of a district providing an out-of-district education for a special ed. student.

The Book Nook has brought up the subject of homeless individuals and that has me wondering if there is anything in place that ascertains some kind of school stability for children who live in homeless shelters -- so they aren't bouncing around from one school to another.

I am so glad this discussion has opened about the state of Education today, so many issues and interesting things you have brought up and I've come with two more because I have a need for advice on one front and I'd really like to hear what folks think on the other: both pertain to education.

The first concerns TV, specifically children's programming, educational programming, Sesame Street, Barney, etc., etc., and young children. How much TV is too much? Is any TV ok for children, Let's say young children?

The other is a new program airing in the US but the premise is clear, indirectly about education, but what is the message? See below:

On TV for children: is it good? Is it not? Does it hurt? How many hours a day if at all should PBS be on? It seems that recent evidence points toward educational TV as causing all sorts of problems, and should not be used. So should soap operas and Dr. Phil be on? Horror movies?

This recent information about educational TV is a surprise to me as my own children came up with Captain Kangaroo, Mr. Rogers (I still like Mr. Rogers even in reruns) Sesame Street, and were big fans.

Another thing I'd like to hear your opinion on is the new TV program I have heard about but not seen called Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader? It has been the subject of many discussions around the dinner table here from those who have seen it: about the content and what it may imply. What an awful title. Have any of you seen it?

And if so what did you think of it and what it says to us as a whole? These two issues about education are really something I would like to hear the thoughts of others on, if anybody is interested. Great topic, Pedln.

My two grandaughters go to a school which has developed a philosophy for dealing with childrens home lives. Firstly there is beauty. The school is beautiful. Special gardens like "The secret garden" Landscaping we would love to have in our gardens. An aviary with cheerful chirping budgies and wee quail on the floor of the aviary. A garden that can be viewed through a huge glass window in the library. The garden is complete with a pair of turtles and lots of tropical plants - water fall and pool for the turtles. Now this is no private school. It is a state school that draws from a mixed area of affluent parents and poor parents. The parents in the school have donated much time to the grounds and one of the dads is a landscape designer.

Secondly the Principal has made the school attractive to the very best of teachers. There is a no tolerance bullying code and a peer group support system is in place. Discipline is strict but fair and there is also love from the Principal and the teachers shown to the children. The Principal has made himself a figure that kids can confide in. The kids adore him and will do anything to please him. He is so kind. Its not unusual to visit his office and find a tiny new entrant on the floor colouring in a book or playing with leggo. Any child that has severe separation anxiety is welcome to go to his office and spend some quiet time until they are ready for the tears to stop and they feel able to face the classroom again.

The library is open to the children in all breaks and at lunchtime. There are comfortable sofas and chairs where any child to rest and take time out from playground situations and they can read or just sit and watch the turtles through the glass wall. Its the school sanctuary.

Teachers are trained to spot learning difficulties from the time the child starts school. It is at the age of 7 that you can really say a child has possible dyslexia or another learning difficulty. There is a good reading recovery program in place in the school. There is a part time specialist teacher and a lot of mums who help in the reading recovery program too.

The Principal has inspired parents to work for extra special facilities for the school.

It is because of the culture of the school good teachers are clamouring to join the staff. Out of zone pupils fight to get a place at the school.

The Principal has no compunction about making home visits to the parents of children he has concerns about. He is able to do this without raising antagonism in the parents. Here we have an old fashioned dedicated teacher who inspires his staff and pupils to be the very best they can. And it works in all areas, teaching standards, pupil ability and pupil behaviour. I hope when this great man someday retires there will be someone just like him to take his place.

Carolyn: He sounds like a saint. Too bad we can't clone him.

Ginny, our kids grew up with Captain Kangaroo, and Saturday morning cartoons. But there really wasn't much other than that for kids when they were small. In our grandkids' families, mostly the TV is on constantly (because of dad mostly), but they are all good students, like to read, are and have been involved in outside activities. I don't think it matters so much as to specific programs or time, as to what else is going on in the household and interaction with parents, siblings, and outsiders.

We've never watched the FifthGrader thing, and probably won't. We don't watch any of the so-called reality shows or contest-things or game shows, either. I've been able to answer many of the Fifth Grader questions that have been in our newspaper, though - although I haven't seen any of the math ones. I've not heard anybody talk about that one, though.

Carolyn, your NZ school does sound idyllic.

kiwi- although i am intrigued about the picture you paint, i'm not clear on my own position about school substituting for family. So please no one yet think I'm taking a positon, just ruminating out loud. Yes if child is not in a healthy and enriching home, well school is at least a different experience; then I itch about is that the problem parents and society expect the school experience to substitute for and sometimes overcome the family experience in learning.

Maybe I am behind the times. I was raised by older parents, uneducated (my father did not finish grammar school and my mother got her GED when she was 65 yo)- and there was not much $ by the time I came along. Yet I recall being exposed to just about every 'free' educational opportunity our city could offer. I also learned the $$ sacrifice my parents made to purchase 'The Lincoln Library'- or the poor man's encyclopedia. But my point here is my mother went to parent-teacher meetings with a sense of empowerment. she stepped up to the responsiblity of a parent.

recall when i'd taught 8th grade and my first year shock on parent teacher night when the parents deferred to me as the 'decider' aboutg their children.

so i'm not yet clear on my position.

and all I know about PBS- is as a single parent working at home, Sesame Street was a welcomed and valued enhancement to my kids learning exerience. but then again in our situation that was the only hour tv was on.

Ginny is concerned about her little grandson and how much TV he should be exposed to - and when - if he watches any. Having five little grandchildren under the age of 6, I'm an observer of how these kids spend their day.

My son David's son is three - no I take that back, he turned four last week. He's been reading since he turned two.

Riley and his two year old brother watch selected programs - on occasion they watch Sesame Street. Right now, Jonah, (2) likes Dora the Explorer. He watches this every day. Riley likes Magic School Bus (a learning program) They get one program a day.

BUT - They do watch Videos - starting with the Baby Einstein series - Baby Mozart and Baby Bach are favorites. They are mesmerizing and very well done.

The biggest problem right now is not TV, but the time Riley spends on the computer. (He has his own.) He plays games and builds things, solves problems - no matter how long he plays, he has a meltdown whenever he must turn it off. I'm not sure what to think about this. It's probably something educators haven't considered - three year olds on the computer.

His parents never really set out to teach Riley to read - but David has read to him for a half hour every night - since he was an infant. He pointed to the words he was reading. As time went on Riley began to point out the words before David could get to them and now he reads to David - "chapter books" - which he now adores. Even if there are no pictures.

For Show and Tell he always brings a book to pre-school. The first time he did this the teacher asked him if he would like her to read it to the class. No, he didn't want her to read - he wanted to read it to them - and he did. So now she puts aside a little extra time for him to read a book to the class during show and tell.

He spends a lot of time reading his books in his rocking chair. He loves books of science and nature. Just got finished explaining to me on the phone why Pluto is not a real planet, but a dwarf planet - made of rock and ice - no gas like the other planets. (I didn't know that!) I have no idea what he makes of these facts - but he is fascinated by the world and the planets.

The other day some organization sent me a map of the world - instead of throwing it away I saved it for him. He loves it. He knows where the United States is located and spends time trying to determine how to get to other countries. Right now he prefers boats to planes - except if they are too far, he considers flying.

Enough - I guess I'm trying to say that watching TV doesn't seem to hurt as long as there are other opportunities to learn - and opportunities to spend time with adults. Interaction seems to be the key - though by their nature kids are mesmerized by entertainment.

Joan P, you're right, of course - children love entertainment. But their minds are sponges, and there's no reason the entertainment cannot be educational, too.

I know of a 6 year old that was sent home for three days because he was playing cops and robbers at recess with another little kid and using his finger for a gun...any thoughts on this?

One of my grandsons, aged 27 now has played video games all his childhood and his parents didn't think it was bad for him, all that killing and violence used to make me think it would influence his social behavior. In school he was a medium student with passing grades but he went on to graduate studies and now he works in a large bank on computer programming and repairs. His long hours playing computer and video games didn't seem to have influenced him in any way.

Watching more than 2 hours watching television or playing games doesn't have the same effect on all children. We had a Curious Minds about two years ago called "Babies Watching TV" and Pediatricians in general said that babies under 2 should not watch any television at all, that it dulls the mind because it is a one sided activity, there is no interaction with real people.

Welcome Annie and Joan. You've both given us lots to think about. Annie, about the child sent home for "playing guns" -- I think some administrators just over-react, but at the same time they're really up against it, with school boards, parents, etc. demanding zero tolerance. It's hard to lighten up when someone is always breathing down your neck.

Joan and Eloise, it sounds like TV and computers didn't cause any serious problems in your famililes. Good point you and YiLiLin made about having the learning opportunities available. An d having people around who care about providing those opportunities. That's remarkable about Riley, and wonderful. Children whose parents value learning and impart that to their children are indeed fortunate, as are the teachers who have those children in their classes.

I remember when my first grandchild was about 18 months old and there were five of us, parents and the other grandparents and me, hovering over her, saying such things as "where's your nose, where's your belly button, find grandma's ear, " and I thought, what chance does a child who's just left in a crib, seldom played with or sung or talked to, have in a class when most of the other kids have had a lot of attention. As in the post above, there has to be interaction with others.

YiLinlin

The school I spoke of is being realistic. The type of parent we have been speaking of rarely changes. Therefore to give a child love and a beautiful surrounding for 6 years of his or her lives is better than giving nothing and expecting a parent to change. Foster parenting is as big a risk as the child being in their own home. There has been many horror stories about foster parents. If a child is in physical danger the school would report any suspicions to the authorities. There are many types of very unhappy homes even in affluent households. ( warring parents for a start or one alcoholic parent etc)

Carolyn

Carolyn, your granddaughters are fortunate to be attending school in such a caring environment. Ideally all schools would be so nurturing. Are the schools in New Zealand much different than schools in the US? I know little about schools outside the US, but I do remember reading an inspiring book several years ago, Teacher -- by or about New Zealand teacher, Syvia Ashton Warner. Yesterday my 15 year old grandson and I were talking about all year around schools. How are your school calendars scheduled?

Carolyn, I saw that Mount Ruapehu erupted yesterday. We spent some time in the town across the lake from there when we were in NZ in 2001. It's a gorgeous place. I hope all has settled down now.

Pedln, you asked if parents immigrates to Quebec let's say from the US and want to enroll their children in an English school, they can't according to the Quebec law. As you said unless their parents attended an English school here immigrants children must attend a French school. BUT, it takes only a couple of months for a young child to learn another language. My kids went to French schools at first and at the time I could enroll then in an English school but that is not possible anymore.

Like it was said before, the ideal situation would be to take half of the subjects in one language and the other subject in the other language, but....

Our country has two official languages, French and English and a person across the country in Vancouver can have a government service in either language. It is true it is unrealistic in this very large country. It is more feasible in Switzerland which is so tiny and is surrounded by several language groups, they have 4 official languages, French, Swiss German, Italian and Romanche and it's strange to see grocery lists in all those languages.

Some of my grandchildren did all their schooling in public schools, some are going to private ones, those who go to private schools seem to learn much more and have better bevahior, have better manners. Academically they perform better too and there is no tolerance for bad behavior otherwise they can be easily expelled because there is a long list of parents who want to enroll their children in private schools in Montreal and they take only the top graded students. But it costs an arm and a leg and parents have to scrimp and save to allow their kids this kind of schooling.

The schools in NZ are not as good as they were when I went to school I don't think speaking generally. However many have thought up innovative ways of increasing funding so they can provide more in poorer areas for their pupils. For instance there is Southern Cross Campus. They are three schools on adjoining campus's. They cater for 5 year olds to 18 year olds and they are sponsored by Southern Cross the medical insurers. Then we have Mainfreight Intermediate School - they are sponsored by a large freight company. These two schools are in the poorest part of the Auckland region in a place called Otara.Its a mainly Polynesian city within a city.

Our major telephone company also has a scheme where you can nominate a school and give them points gained from your toll calls. These points are converted into cash contributions for the school. I chose a school to support in that poorer area.

The schools from wealthy areas have quite large school fees even though they are State schools. The fees go towards special facilities. The other schools all charge fees but they may be quite small if its in a poor area.

Stationery, photocopying etc is all paid for by parents separate to the school fees. Text books are free but our schools do not seem to use the number of text books we had at school. The material seems to be largely distributed on typed sheets. There are lots of school resource sites on the internet where material that fits the curriculum is able to be downloaded and printed.

In short parents do not rely entirely on the State and do pay towards their childs education even if its in a modest way. There is a lot of parent involvement in the classroom and with sports. This enables teachers to teach.

The private schools have burgeoned up everywhere. We even have several in my small area. There are the church schools about four of those. Then there is a brand new campus belonging to the Educational Trust that runs the school Nikolas my grandson attends. Even though it is an educational trust the fees are very steep but not quite as steep as the elite three or four colleges in our island. Private schooling is becoming very common and every year more of my aquaintances tell me their children or grandchildren have begun private schooling.

There are some state High schools that have as much status as the private Schools. Two of these are Auckland Boys Grammar and Auckland Girls Grammar. Parents move into the school zones ( and pay through the nose for property in the zone) to enable their child to attend one of the elite High Schools. Then there is Epsom Girls Grammar, and Mt Albert Grammar. Avondale College near me and Mt Roskill Grammar are schools where kids who want to be in show biz or the music world fight to get places. They have cultivated stage and music along with the regular state curriculum. I think we could say that there are good schools in the State system and only a few bad ones.

A lot of parents are demanding values programs in schools now and a good system of pupil discipline. The schools are generally responding to the parents wishes. The schools with values programs also have a lot of out of zone applications. Brookes school the one I spoke of before has the values program in place, Teaching respect for others and compassion for others and learning right from wrong. Its not a religious based program.

We have a few problems still to iron out regarding High school attainment assessments and examinations since they dropped outside examinations but a lot of schools are now entering kids in the Cambridge examinations and Baccalaureat. The Govt may be forced to think again! All in all however I think our education system is in quite a good position if one looks worldwide at problems in other nations.

Carolyn

Many of you have told about the good things happening in your schools. Examples:

Learn more than one language at an early age- (the world truly IS getting 'smaller').

Strict discipline- (very important).

Learning to read early- (people who love to read become good students and life-long learners).

A loving principal- (helps children love school and learning).

Private schools- (graduates DO seem more polite and better disciplined in general, plus better standardized test scores).

Teaching values- (important, as long as most parents agree with the values being taught).

Help from Business & Industry- (usually available just for the asking, including free equipment, lectures and advisors)

so here's my unsolicited and most likely unpopular opinion...

for parents who wish to pay for private schooling: a) invest in prek-3rd grade ideally Montessorri, once your child learns to read attain math literacy and think critically he/she is half way there... b) enroll in public education through 8th grade c) not sure how, but except in the best and smallest systems home school for high school d) enroll in a good community college with relevant and hands on programs e) have child get a job f) continue education to bachelor's in 4-year institution (ideally while employed with employer tuition reimbursement benefits) g) take time off for grad education only if there is relevant work experience; otherwise work/learn

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070319/ap_on_re_us/financial_aid_loans_4

I can tell you stories about higher ed recruitment and financial aid if you like....

Interesting news about a college (can't remember the name) which will no longer submit students to the loan process but instead offer combinations of grants and employment. Private school, of course. Should see enrollment soar.

Carolyn, thank you very much for that very informative post about schools in New Zealand. I didn't realize that students had to pay to attend public (govt.) schools.

Eloise, I appreciate your comments about language learning. We lived in Puerto Rico for ten years (my Spanish is lousy). When we arrived my eldest was starting kindergarten. We knew nothing about schools there, but our neighbors said, send her with ours. So on the bus she went. The school was taught by nuns from Spain who spoke only Spanish. Karen found one little boy who spoke some English and stuck to him like glue. She didn't complain about school, but didn't learn much Spanish either. I suppose that in this day and age I would have been at the school, trying to communicate with teachers, but then I was home carless with a two year old and a newborn. The following year we tried her in a Montessori, taught in English. And all the children were in various private schools during our stay. The oldest never did become proficient in Spanish, but her younger siblings fared much better.

For two years I taught kindergarten (all day) in an Episcopal school. The school was taught in English and the majority of the students were Puerto Rican, many whose parents had attended Cathedral School and who were sacrificing to send their children, so they would learn English. My job was to get these little ones ready for an English first grade, and I was not to speak Spanish. Most adapted well, but there were a few who had trouble coping. There were also some very funny moments. Like little Lily, whose mother came to see me because Lily said the boys were pulling down her pants. We were discussing this problem in English, not realizing that a nearby table of little boys was taking it in and catching it all. "Listen to them," said mama. "They're talking about Lily's pants." Actually, I think it was Lily doing the pulling. The first English word learned was "flush." "Si, Missy. I flush." Most modern kindergartens probably now are equipped, but in those days we had to line them up and march them down the hall.

I have not been involved with private schools in the US, but my experiences in PR lead me to believe that private schools can be a pig in the poke. Do all private school teachers have to be certified for the subjects they teach? I remember one school when the first grade teacher was out on maternity leave two years in row and the school was hard put to pay a substitute the second year, so one of the school secretaries took over for six weeks.

YiLiLin, there are many items of interest in the area of high education, especially in the area of recruitment, rankings, etc. but that in itself is a big topic, probably better suited to stand alone, while we limit this to K-12.

Private schools here enjoy State funding- so much per pupil- so they have to conform to the same rules and regulations that the State schools have to conform to. Add the high parent fees and you see that private schools can really lay out all the bells and whistles for their pupils.

I don't know about education in the US, here though I would say that education in public schools have become substandard and after graduation young people can hardly spell, they have a poor vocabulary, they can't do without their calculator, don't know much about the world in general and I think that is the reason why private schooling is so desirable for parents who want and can afford it.

What about adult education? and education for the 50+? do you think governments should subsidize them? Personally I learned much more after than before I was 40 and I went back to school for a diploma. I am constantly learning, there is nothing that stimulates me more than seeking more knowledge even at my age.

Thanks for the article, YiLiLin. Higher education would be an interesting topic and I hope CM will take it up sometime in the near future.

Happy Bill, your summary is much appreceiated. I notice that the last item you mention is help from business and industry. This morning's Washington Post (which I am thoroughly enjoying during my visit in DC) has an article about $65 million raised by the Knowledge is Power Program (KIPP) to create 42 new charter schools in Houston, TX. This is deemed the most successful fund-raising of any charter school endeavor, with much of the funds coming from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the Walton Family Foundation, the founders of Gap, and other philanthropists. It sounds really amazing when you learn that the two yound men who founded KIPP could not raise any funds 9 years ago when they first started with one 5th grade experiment class. (KIPP is now the largest charter school organization in the country.

We haven't said anything here about Charter Schools and I don't know much about them other than 1)they are public schools, but 2)run independently, and 3) are partly tax-supported. What about the rest of you -- any thoughts on charter schools? Are they doing what they set out to do?

Thank you for the great thoughts. Mary, that's an excellent point, there just was NOT that much other children's programming, then. So this Baby Einstein stuff may be in essence (thank you Pearson) a new and improved Sesame Street etc?

I need to get some of the tapes, I know my son already has some.

Eloise, another great point about TV dulling the mind before 2, I missed that CM and I'll go look it up, I now remember you did it, good thing we archive past discussions here!

In fact the old Sesame Street programs from the late 60's have been brought back on DVD. I bought one and remember them fondly, I wonder if they have stood the test of time. I'm about to find out~

We here in 2007 are supposed to be superior, right? The highest standard of living? The most innovative approaches to education? Yet our first graders in any country would be hard pressed to read an old McGuffey's First Reader. In fact many adults would be hard pressed to read McGuffey's first reader, have any of you ever seen that thing?

We need to put a page of it here.

When you compare the literacy and grade level of one of the writers of the Civil War, like Mary Chestnut to today's writers, it's clear it's almost another language.

When most of us went to elementary school the world was a different place. We memorized (I recall this vividly) the battles of WWI. There had been no Korean War, no Vietnam War, no Desert Storm, no Iraq.

How many many scientific things have changed in the last 50- 60 years?

There are just so many hours in a school day and tons of new stuff which has happened in the last 60 years. Everything cannot be covered. I guarantee you they no longer memorize the battles of WWI. Do they teach it at all? How do they decide what TO teach?

ARE our children in 2007 more or less educated than we were? If more why did they have to adjust the SAT scores up 150 points or whatever it was?

Were WE more or less educated than our own forebears? What do you really think? Has TV and the Internet helped or hurt? Big issues for the new millennium and the answers will affect the entire world. What would you say has played the MOST important part in education in the last 20 years??

Ginny, you ask a lot of questions. Interesting that you ask about WWII. I'll try to answer, because 7th grade Lizzie is into that (I'm teen-sitting for son and DIL). I asked her what she was doing in English class and she said they were debating World War II, the current topic being "Were women discriminated against because they could not fight in battle," Lizzie taking the affirmative. (I don't believe they had discussed the cultural differences between then and now.) As for the books they were reading about the topic -- "Farewell to Manzanar" (Japanese incarceration), "Goodnight Mr. Tom" -- I don't know that one, but it's about the London blitz, and sad, and "Diary of Anne Frank>"

As for memorizing the battles or memorizing any other lengthy lists, the Homework article above has some comments about lists. A middle school student's assignment was to memorize all the rivers in South America. Her mother, head of Stanford's Education Dept, was not impressed, her thinking being, and I agree, that she knew how to find that information quickly and easily, so it was not necessary to memorize it.

But, as others have pointed out, students do need a core of basic facts that they can bring up with quick recall (like noun endings for 3rd declension nouns ) and such. Our high school junior here is tutoring an 8th grader in math. She says it's very difficult for the younger student because she doesn't know basics like the multiplication tables.

A recent (Dec.? Jan?) Time Magazine cover story on education states that educators need to focus more on teaching students how to FIND the information they need, and to JUDGE it and ANALYSE it -- to decide if it's accurate, free of bias, etc.

Oh, and there was this great article in WashPost two days ago (I love to hold that newspaper in my hand, so much better than on the Internet) about educators from SINGAPORE coming here to study how US teachers teach. Singapore students rank first in the world in math and science, yet their teachers think there is too much memorization and not enough creative thinking. More on that later. I'll post the article.

Here's the WP article about the educators from Singapore

Asian Educators Looking To Loudoun for an Edge

An a comment by the principal of the Virginia school they visited . . .

"How do you measure excitement? How do you measure creativity?" asked George Wolfe, director of the two-year-old public magnet school in Loudoun. "There's so much publicity about Americans not scoring well on tests, but few people ask the question: Then why are we producing so much innovation from our scientists?"

Yes, I too think it isn't what we learn but learning how to learn that is the most important since as Ginny points out information continually changes as new systems are developed which fosters the unearthing of new information. Example the knowledge of DNA has turned social anthropology on its ear and a change in the power structure has brought to our attention the contributions of women and ethnic minorities who were not known about before the change in the power structure. By learning how to learn the student's curiosity is tapped and encouraged as well as their creativity.

That is what most of the teachers I hear from who have issues with "No Child..." bemoan - the test is about what they know that is supposed to be packed into their heads rather than the test being a learning tool with the availability of resources to further an inquiry. Also my daughter sees how the test is prepared to be answered as if all students were looking at life from a Beaver Clever type view point - when asked questions that deal with life experiences the answers by most of her students are the ones the test thinks are the most outrageous and therefore incorrect.

Oh I'm full of it (questions) haahha that is, it's so much easier to ask a question than to plump down on one side or the other, and you raise a good point, Pedln: there DOES need to be a basic body of knowledge.

When my own children were going thru school, the "new Math" was just starting and memorizing was the dreaded word. NO Memorizing. It was held as Satan's paw: we don't MEMORIZE sniffed a teacher, we...I can't remember what it was we did but we did not memorize.

Now I hear "we" don't know our times tables, can you imagine? Why on earth not? Do any of you have any knowledge of the current state of the times table?

Pedln, that's an interesting subject for a child to study about WWII. I went thru the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam and I am not sure what I expected but it's very very poignant to actually stand in the rooms which were a lot larger than I thought and to hear and see the film and the testimonies.

Barbara, creativity versus spouting off facts, good point. That's one thing I hate about the premise of "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?" I don't think the word SMART should be in the equation.

Great discussion. The article on Too Much Homework in the heading is not loading for me but I read a huge one in Newsweek recently, in fact I think it was the cover article and it seems the pendulum is swinging back the other way now and it's thought they should LEARN it all in the classroom, nothing at home. Golly.

That Homework article seems to be covered by a big ad. Close the ad and I think you'll see the article.

I'm really glad the question of homework has been raised by articles and a recent book. Since teachers are invariably overtaxed with work, the homework tends to be easy to check and unchallenging to the student. The student then becomes skeptical of the whole educational process. Teachers need to consider less frequent homework and instead giving more challenging and interesting assignments--invariably more challenging to the teacher to evaluate or respond to. It's probably been said here, but unfortunately many parents insist on daily homework. And, of course. there are classes and lessons that do require repetition of material and rote memorization. (One study showed that (duh) people who have good rote memory tend to be smarter. Savants are rare.)

Whenever educators and others begin to talk about all those wonderful "tools" and qualities that cannot be measured, I fear for the ones that can. Recent articles have discussed the dumbing down of quiz shows. (Yes, they are fun and less intimidating to family members.) For a number of reasons (teacher quality, computer time, etc.), the aim of becoming knowledgeable in the facts of literature, history, the arts, philosophy, etc. is no longer a given for many (most?) bright students.

Schools of education often promote the notion that "personality and interaction" are more important than achievement scores. Is that because most of them teach so little? This also gives the schools as powerful a voice in the futures of their students as their records. And administrators get an excuse to hire their relatives.

A student of my husband's was a shoe-in for a job at a state history archive. She had straight "A's and was quite good-looking and highly personable. What a shock when a 'C' student with a sloppy demeaner got the job. (Her uncle was a state representative.) She must've had some of those elusive unmeasurable qualities. Even the value of a particular SAT score has been diminished today. So how do ordinary people compare a recent score with the same score made in the past?

The world is certainly changing, and we can only hope for some vestigial interest in Western and world culture and a continuing respect for a measurable standard.

What does it say that Harvard University has dropped any requirement of history for its students? And its new woman president--an historian--has been obligated to approve.

MrsS--One is Davidson College (suburban Charlotte,NC)--$43,000 a year. I don't really understand what's happening there. Will they allow a student to take out a loan on his own?

Good things must be happening at Davidson, because they've said goodbye to the enormous contributions (continuing million$) of John Belk of the Belk department store empire because he refused to allow non-Presbyterians on their board of trustees. He will continue to contribute to scholarships--a fraction of his original largesse.

Re memorization, rote learning, etc. Our youngest grandson is a high school senior in Kentucky. Last year he gave up the marching band to concentrate on the school's Academic Team. He's been on an Academic Team since he was in middle school. The state contest was held last weekend, and his school came in second in the state, and he, himself, was in the top 10, state-wide, in what they call "instant recall".

Well, yes, I'm bragging. BUT, anything to be used in an instant recall type situation, such as in the old College Quiz Bowl program, etc., has to be rote learning to a certain degree. I don't really know how they "train" for this sort of thing. Maybe these kids just have the sort of minds that soak that stuff up. I guess I need to get more information. Just thought it was of interest that this IS still going on in some places.

Barbara, interesting point about assuming everyone coming from a Beaver Cleaver point of view. I remember years ago a first grade teacher friend of my mother's relating her experience testing new first graders. The children were to check the pictures of things they would see in a park. One little girl checked an overstuffed chair. The child had moved from an impoverished small town that offered few amenities. The teacher asked the child if she knew what a park was -- "No, ma'am."

Oh boy, I can relate to this one. When my eldest started school in a Construction camp with Correspondence lessons and a qualified teacher as supervisor(married to a worker), she told the school that he was backward. some of the reasons being he knew nothing from Sesame Street and was totally ignorant about sea creatures.

John had spent his 6 years in the Outback and there was no TV reception! He did know all about spinifex if she'd asked. This teacher had taught Grade 1 for many years in a big city, not far from the beach, and the children were very savvy about the life. Once he moved to civilisation, he was top of his class.

Sorry Pedlin, did not read in your header that the discussion was limited to to K-12

but a last comment to Barbara65b if I may...yes Davidson was the school I'd posted the link about...did you read about Harvard? If you'd like to talk about these kind of education issues, email me--

Happy Bill gave us a nice listing of some of the things we have mentioned in this discussion, including help for schools from business and industry -- which it appears can come in many shapes and sizes. For example, the article in today's Washington Post (below) speaks of the problems that schools nationwide are having in getting out of contracts made with beverage companies, primarily Coca-cola, Pepsi, and Cadbury Schwepes.

Removing Schools' Soda Is Sticky Point

The schools are now under pressure to remove highly-sweetened drinks, the companies have promised to change to more nutritious items, but have yet to do so, and the schools, in long term contracts find that it would be too costly to no longer do business. Most schools receive large, upfront, and then annual payments when they allow a company exclusive rights to sell their products. One example -- A Wisconsin district decided not to remove high-calorie drinks from their vending machines after they found it would cost them $200,000. They will wait until the contract runs out in 2010.

Pedln - Soda pops were removed from our schools some years ago. I can understand why. Two of my grandchildren act like they are drunk if they drink a can. It sends them off the wall. Imagine if even 10% of kids who drink it at recess have that reaction. The poor teachers!

The schools here are one by one turning to healthy lunch menus. Kids that bring packed lunches are taught what is a healthy lunch. Lunch boxes are regularly inspected and the teacher will hold up the example of the healthiest lunch. Of course all the kids want to be noticed so they go home and nag their parents for healthy alternatives for their lunch boxes! There are school stores which sell lunches to those kids whose parents don't pack lunches. The stores do sell lemonade iceblocks ( popsicles) in high summer at some schools. Otherwise they sell things like salad rolls, cheese wedges, fruit juices, whole fruits like apples oranges and bananas. Muesli bars, and fruit roll ups.

Carolyn

Y & all-- Isn't it kind of hard to talk of K-12 without noticing what's happening in colleges--and the culture--where teachers and parents receive their education and values?

I believe it was Y who asked the source for the story on Harvard's new curriculum. It was Time magazine about three or four weeks ago. History was dropped along with some other requirements.

Moreover, there was a new statement of intent that gets the university off the hook for most measurable results of their efforts. Stories abound about Ivy grads whose speaking and writing leave much to be desired. We see the misspellings and hear the grammatical errors of America's best and brightest on national television and even in highly-edited periodicals, unheard of a few decades ago. Laying has replaced lying, the reclining verb, and ect-cetera has replaced et-cetera, and so on. Such errors appear in emails from, of all places, The New York Times! (Gasp!) But, heck, if they're creative, what does any of that stuff matter?

Of course, none of us is perfect; but, crikeys!(sp?), where does it all end?

The movement at Harvard (and nearly all over) in this new direction--process and experience?--began in the late eighties. History barely survived at that time. But at least there was an loud outcry about the loss of old values and standards. If there's been a serious dissent in 2007, Time neglected to report it. If anyone knows of any criticism, inside or outside of the changes, it would be heartwarming to hear of it.

Remember the film "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe?" The sixties play went into greater detail about how those who upheld the old disciplines and love of learning were giving way to a new breed with an eye on getting ahead through more practical means. (With ethics and morality no impediment, BTW.) Welcome to 2007.

I do see many exceptions at all levels. And some of the schools described here sound wonderful. I wish our children had attended one of those.

And how I wish I'd spent more time sharing educational experiences with my children instead of focusing on my own education and household matters. A common tabletalk was guessing the names of cities on the bottom of coke bottles! (Hard to believe we let our teenagers drink soft drinks for supper. At least they didn't get them at school.)

And so it goes.

A Non-Validictorian

I am so lucky I get to work with my two grandaughters. I hear their reading and often they phone me to ask for help with projects etc. I hear everything about school and even get to meet their teachers. Its great.

Carolyn

Barbara, I can assure you that you are not the only non-validictorian. (I've just returned home after a two-day drive from visiting my son and family) I love it while I'm there because I get a chance to pick up on all the things that aren't discussed in letters, emails, etc. And of course I want to know all about the kids' schools, etc. One interesting tidbit my DIL told about the high school is that they have NO CLASS RANKINGS -- no valedictorians, no saluditorians, etc. No National Honor Society. This is done to take pressure off the students. Whether it works or not, I don't know. This is a school where probably 90%+ of the students go on to college.

My grandson is a freshman, taking pre-calc. Math is his strong point. I asked it there would be any math at the school after Calc or Calc2, and his mother said that they would like himn to go part-time and do an internship because it would look good on his application to college. I said "sheeeesh, can't he just do something because he's interested in it? Does it have to look good somewhere?"

I don't remember all this pressure on my kids. They struggled through an application essay, but who doesn't. In my day you either went or you didn't. My mother bought Lovejoy's Guide to colleges and it said "these colleges teach people to be teachers." Since I had expressed an interesting in teaching, she said, "pick one." We didn't know beans about any of them.

One of the other things about the kids' school that schocked me purple was the gift for the middle school band director. Apparently he was very good, everyone liked him, and he did a terrific job. So terrific that all the parents chipped in and gave him an end-of-the-year present of $800. Does that make the other teachers chopped liver? I was surprised that administrative policy would allow such a thing because the only teacher gifts that were acceptable in my district were food items or something made by the child. I remember a student bringing my a jar of spaghetti sauce and it was really appreciated.

They don't give gifts like that at my grands school except on special occasions and then it comes out of the PTA funds ( funds raised by parents). This year they have had 2 fiftieth birthdays amongst the staff. The kids all assembled in the hall and in conjunction with the families they presented a this is your life slide show on each occasion. The only outside guests were the close families of the people concerned. One of the birthday persons was the Principal. For weeks the kids made a feature wall from treated Plywood with all their names and art work from each child on the wall. The wall was going to be a feature in the Principals garden. He was absolutely delighted. ( the panel to be attached to the solid wall already in the garden). Each teacher got a huge birthday cake which fed the whole school and the guests. ( lots of mums joined together to make the cakes) There was little money attached to either gift for the teachers just a lot of effort and love.

Thank goodness some parents realize the value of their children's teachers who could be paid three times as much as an industrial educator - the grade school near me gives as a gift each year, from parent collections, of two fully paid trips to Europe or similar location so the teachers can broaden their knowledge, experience and possibly even hook up with a teacher or research abroad to strengthen their own skills.

If teachers are not given a broader understanding of the world than they bring a provincial attitude into the classroom - children from middle and upper middle income families could easily be more traveled than the teachers which does not bode well for the education of the children.

It is time we realize that teachers on their salaries cannot bring into the classroom more than the socia-economic values of their salary which does not bring the innovative ideas that can make a school great. Few teachers have been successful in business before they entered the profession and to give an air of how to succeed to the majority of the students who will be entering the world of business they need exposure to more than jams and cakes and a bright red apple - they need experiences that come with a price tag.

Since most teachers spend so much of their own money on supplies and even books they can easily spend upwards of $500 a year of their own money to help educate our children - my daughter had purchased 30 books at 12.95 each so that one of her classes could have access to information not available in any text book and yet vital to their future. She has purchased and keeps a pantry closet stocked with peanut butter, jelly, fruit cups and crackers knowing that many come without having eaten breakfast - and others do not have money for lunch - she has paid for a few students to take their SAT tests because they had no idea they could get into college but needed the test to apply to what will be free College offered in the state for those coming from families below a certain income level.

And so I think we could all look at how much the teachers are spending and how much we are supporting their growth and well being on their minimal incomes.

Back home after two days on the road and want to respond more to all your interesting posts. But Barbara, here's one that will probably raise your shackles; it raised a lot when my local newspaper published it -- (originally in the Wall Street Journal.)

$34.06 an hour

More later.

pedln, I can see why that article got some hackles raised. That's really comparing apples to oranges. The author does mention that the teacher works fewer hours per year. He doesn't count all the unpaid hours that the teacher spends doing non-teaching things, like staying with the kids afterschool waiting for the bus, or club meetings; administrative meetings; hours at home doing lesson planning or grading homework and papers. Then, as has been mentioned before, supplies, clothing, and food bought out of the teachers' own money for kids 'without'. What a one-sided article!

It is all in how you add the hours - the legal hours of classroom or the hours spent in the school and afterwards at home - also, they do get summer off - but to me this is no different than any professional who on the books appears to be getting a high dollar per hour but the hours are not all paid nor are the hours made available to earn a greater income.

Most teachers are earning a year between 26,000 and 45,000 - most are limited to teaching certain types of classes regardless their expertise because various grants pay their salary and so for instance if you are a double major as my daughter is but one is in the arts and the other in the sciences you are limited to one area of teaching versus the other. And so a true professional - no.

As to salary we are talking here professionals with MORE than a 4 year college degree in order to teach. Time after time schools loose good teachers to industry where that kind of education pays them 75,000 to 90,000 a year with granted only 3 weeks vacation - no homework under their arm to take time away from their family, no going in a few days before the job/school opens just to clean-up and decorate a workspace/classroom, no requirement to sponsor a club after your days work without pay...etc. etc.

I think the hue and cry over teacher salaries is well known - the main issue is if that is the socia-economic level of person we want teaching our kids than we must stop expecting the students to have the abilities, interests and drive in mass to get the education that places them in 4 year college and assures them a secure place in the world economy.

I have a program I pay for to help clients when they are choosing where to live - I just made the assumption that most places were similar to where I live - I think we are all guilty of thinking where we live is a prime example of most of America. WELL I was shocked...

In the part of town where I live and where this school that sends two teachers abroad each year is located a third of the adult population have advanced degrees - another third has a college degree and the remaining third are split not quite in half between those with an associate [2 yr] degree and those who graduated from high school.

It turns out taking in the whole of Austin only 55% of students currently go on to college - 15% of them go to an out-of-state college. The chamber has become active and is working with the school district so that the goal is in 5 years 90% of Austin high school students will seamlessly go on to at least a 2 year college - in 2 years they expect the current 55% to become 70% - one of the efforts includes a group of 50 volunteers who call every single senior at their home to make sure they have filled out their paper work to apply for tests and to apply for college. Those students who come from families who have never attended college and who will need financial aid they meet with to help them understand and fill out the paperwork -

This is work we EXPECT from the high school teachers among all their duties to teach - it takes adults wanting rather than complaining about what students are achieving; and become realistic as to what teachers can accomplish.

I was further shocked when I started to get the stats on the cities my children are living in - for the most part there is an 8th of the adult population with advanced degrees - in Lubbock there are about a third of the population with college degrees and about a third with high school education and the rest without having graduated from high school. And this is a college town... Where my daughter lives there are about a quarter of the population without a high school diploma and a quarter with a college education and less than an 8th with advanced degrees. Then we wonder why a town does not have the incentive to push for better resources, zoning laws, educational opportunites...

Teachers today are not just teachers - they must educate children with all sorts of disabilities, language skills, children coming to class from all sorts of family uproar and trauma, - if they are educated on how to teach and a subject to teach that is not near enough. This varied bundle of skills that we put in the teacher's laps is not like any other job and because of the low pay we loose the brightest and best teachers to industry -

We do not value our teachers - time and time we hear of legislators wanting to put more accountability on the teacher rather than really understanding what we are expecting of them - or wondering why we have students exposed each day to an adult world that can only afford Wal-Mart so they get to thinking and living a Wal-Mart lifestyle and teaching from a Wal-Mart perspective.

AS much as I value the protection from a good police and fire-fighters in my opinion half of the crime would go away if we had a better educated society - I also see that it is more difficult to affect a teachers pay when schools are funded by property tax and grants - How that can change I am not gifted enough to know or they would have in up in the state legislature in a New York Minute - however, anything I can do to add to a drive to support the teachers I am there - stop and think it takes about $5,000 to send a teacher abroad for further experience and to hook up with a school and teachers during the trip. If a school has 800 students because of brothers and sisters that is approximately 300 sets of parents who if they each only chip in less than $20 a family a teacher would have a greater view of the world to bring with her into the classroom - by having two teachers a year travel in ten years half the teachers in the school would have a different outlook.

This is how to my way of thinking we start to make a difference for teachers that will translate into a better school environment - when teachers do not feel valued they end up bad mouthing the students during their brakes and that attitude then does not translate into students achieving more and reaching for more.

I just wrote a rip-roarin' response to the misleading WSJ article. And lost it. The article reminds me of John Stossels' unfair TV segment citing NYC teacher pay to show that teachers are well paid. How do these "reports" see the light of day? The people who craft them care little about public schools. Shameless.

In retrospect, virtually all the points in my lost post are covered in Barbara St. A's post. Some Stossel viewers may have reflected that it could be difficult to live in NYC on $62,000. That would be putting it mildly. To rent a decent small room through a realtor--usually required--can easily be close to $30,000 a year, with a minimum of $5,000 down. Our daughter moved from a shared tiny upper East Side bed-loft space in Manhattan that cost about $1600 a month to Brooklyn. It was no longer possible to find a room with stove and refrigerator at that price in a safe neighborhood. She pays close to that on a shared two-room with kitchen area floor in the house of a friend. Now Brooklyn rents are rising so rapidly that the time will probably come when her friend will need to raise the rent or even sell out for an economic windfall.

In order to live in or near NYC, a teacher needs to split expenses with someone in modest digs or live in a family-owned property. A couple of recent movies have shown the tiny, run-down flats they often inhabit. Teachers are not flocking to NYC from elsewhere.

Though I've visited there, I'm not entirely familiar with the Detroit situation. But we do know it shares some of the horrific social and economic problems of many of our cities. Whatever the actual salaries are in Motor City must reflect an effort to keep teachers in large areas where gangs, drug use, etc. are problems. Charlotte, NC, ten years ago a relative oasis of civility, must now offer bonuses in an attempt to attract and keep teachers in a growing number of problem schools.

Something like 110 heavy duty gangs now operate between Charlotte and Fayetteville, NC. A favored gang activity involves selecting beloved students with bright futures and shooting then to death as they wait for a school bus.

A Charlotte newspaper recently quoted teachers' accounts of language and behavior they are now exposed to on a daily basis. One longtime master teacher feared he might lose his job in a recent reform movement because of continuing poor performance by his students. The system has a charismatic, experienced and innovative new superintendant--Dr. Peter Gorman--who's attacking some of its problems. Some of these problems clearly need to be attacked in society at large as well. The brunt of them are borne by the victims of crime and school teachers. You could say that teachers in these schools are victims by contract.

Carolyn, what a delightful school your grandchildren must go to. It sounds like a very caring place on the part of everyone -- teachers, principal, parents, students. I loved the story of the birthday parties.

There are some public schools also, that are being recognized for the progress they are making. The article "Character education," above, talks about the changes that can take place when there is a caring environment.

For as is stated in the article,

"To educate a person in mind and not in morals," said Theodore Roosevelt, "is to educate a menace to society."

and

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom," is the familiar aphorism from Benjamin Franklin. Less well-known, but worth recalling, is the warning in the sentence that follows: "As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

What are your thoughts on this?

The article focuses on a school in Arnold, MO, but Barbara, a sidebar lists other schools recognized for their positive efforts. One of them is in Charlotte, so it appears that the new superintendant's work is bearing fruit.

Marcie sent me information about the following book --
Battling the Hamster Wheel TM: Strategies for Making High School Reform Work. by Rachel Damien, and I thought you might be interested in these statistics offered by the author.

7 out of 10 don’t complete courses needed to succeed in college.
Nearly 50% of African American population, 40% of Latino population and 11% of white population attend schools in which graduation is NOT the norm.
1 in 20 students do not finish high school.
40% of those entering college need remediation
26% of high school graduates who enter four-year schools and 45% who enter two-year schools do not return to school after their first year.
Nearly 80% of the nation’s high schools identified by a recent Johns Hopkins study as having ‘weak promoting power’ are found in just 15 states
Five southern states (FL, GA, NC, SC, and TX) lead the nation in total number of schools that serve as the nation’s ‘drop out factories.

_________________________________________

Undoubtedly not everyone would agree with all she says, and would want to know where she got her data. If you would like more information about this book, please email me.

When I was a child teachers were the most poorly paid of all the professionals. However this did not take away from the respect in which they were held in the community. The respect for teachers was second only to the esteem we held for our local doctors. Today teachers are not respected by students firstly and parents secondly. Its a thankless task and I truly admire all those teachers who go the extra mile for their students. Its very hard for them in the 21st century to cope because of low budgets and unruly students.

I've been trying to catch up with Book Nook posts and came across this after making lots of clicks into a link provided by Jane. Day-Care

As we talk about the successes and problems in grades K-12, these statements come across as pretty profound.

"The degree to which parents enjoy being with children, are responsive and sensitive to children, talk to their children, and expose their children to ideas is the strongest predictor of children’s academic success as well as their behavior at school. . . .Parenting matters far more than any single decision about child care--or all the decisions put together. Quality parenting predicts school success."

Wow!! Talk about an uneven playing field for all those teachers testing for NCLB.

Barbara and Barbara, such interesting posts about teacher pay. In spite of the WSJ article, I would say that most of us here do NOT think that teachers are well-paid. I think that in smaller communities, like mine, teachers fit within the middle class, when both spouses work. When I was working I did not know any male teachers whose wives did not work, many of them also teaching. I can't imagine where teachers live in the large metropolitan areas with such high housing costs. As was mentioned, new teachers aren't flocking to NY city. I've seen some articles (can't remember where) about locales that offer innovative home financing for teachers.

What a wonderful gift to receive a trip to Europe or elsewhere from the parents of one's students. How are the lucky recipients selected? I understand the purpose -- to improve the school by augmenting teacher experiences. If it's the only school in the district, fine. But I have a problem with one school in a district providing teacher largess, excluding teachers in the other schools. We have five elementary schools in my district. Three of them have 81%, 74%, and 63% of the students on free and/or reduced lunch. (Our district overall 51%, up from 41% in 2003). I believe teachers should be rewarded, but all teachers in a district should be offered the opportunity (to apply). There are some innovative gifts and grants being offered. More later --thunderstorms approaching.

Barbara St. A, I've been rereading and rereading your post 832. Really very thought-provoking -- "It is time we realize that teachers on their salaries cannot bring into the classroom more than the socia-economic values of their salary which does not bring the innovative ideas that can make a school great." Very interesting. There are lots of problems with teacher renumeration. Are there any solutions?

Pedlin I think the initiative has to come from each school - so far the parents who are upset simply homeschool their children - and there are many who home school for other reasons then religious beliefs -

As to gifts to the teachers - no one suggests that a Christmas gift to a teacher can only be given if the same type of gift is given to all the teachers in a school district just as some individual schools hold carnivals, car washes and fairs to raise money for school supplies so they are not having to be purchased out of the pockets of teacher -

It simply takes a few parents or, someone from the community putting the bug in the ear of parents, telling parents that the teachers who have a broader experience in life add to their children's education -

If $17 a semester is too much for parents in a school area to contribute to send two teachers abroad they could consider a much lessor amount and arrange for a couple of teachers a year to be a part of a marine biology lab for two weeks in either Texas or Florida or, they could arrange for teachers to visit some of the ruins in Mexico while brushing up on their Spanish or, any number of opportunities that would not fall within the budget of most teachers but for a group of parents pitching in would broaden the viewpoint of those teaching their children - In time it would set the example for those teachers who can afford to travel on their own dime to add this aspect of life to their bag of skills -

To suggest that if one school does care enough they should be only able to support their teachers if the whole district is in on the gift then the parents again loose the process that builds pride and loyalty to a school. If individual schools can support a band to travel to an event without the entire district having a share in the opportunity or, a school can arrange for a grant for certain extras then surely parents can create a means to send teachers abroad. Most folks will gladly contribute $17 twice a year knowing it will directly affect those who teach their child than they would add $40 to their school tax bill.

As to choosing the teachers - let each group figure that out - some will choose on seniority and others will choose on merit measured by student test scores and still others will see what teachers will have the greatest impact on the most students. However, bottom line it is a way for parents to be involved without the de-personalization of school board approved funding that is now not enough to even offer the arts in many schools much less teacher enhancement.

I will try to find the book. 1 of 20 grad HS , too low.. 30% prep for college also too low ... BUT we need schools to prepare 100% FOR LIFE. this means going against democratic principles and accepting that some students wont make it to the college level and dragging down the entire class to that level lowers the level of the output of the school. I dont think we do this today ,but when in HS (1954) my school had 4 curiculum levels. my advisor said try level 4 ,heavy math ,science. It nearly killed me but his encouragement would not let me fail. He called my mother every quarter to say how good I was doing..She made a special event of the weekend. It is important for teacher/advisor and parent to support student progress. My point is that there must be a point that the parents agree that the subject will met be graduate material and do a read-write-arithmetic program for them. I guess my point is that grades K-6 canbe NCLB but after that we need to be more practical..

My children were put in an experimental program in grade school called Mastery Learning. After two years it was dropped as not worthwhile...but, my children were in it for two years. I fought hard to get them out of it but no luck. It was a long road to catch them back up with their peers.

Pedln you chose well and I thank you for a great subject and all who posted ....There were so many good suggestions we ought to have a book of them . One thing I found when I was working for our local school system too many parents dont care! They are just glad to have the children at school and not at home and provide no encouragement. That was so sad to me...

It has been a long time since my children were in school so I am not aware of special programs but my grandchildren seem to be doing well and especially my grandsons who have curious minds ...they sound so grown in thier interests and the oldest will be 11 this year, My granddaughters do well but they seem more interested in conversation with clothes and what celebrities are doing The parents encourage different activiities and make sure they are getting a good education when I think at 16 my activities were still juvenile compared to my granddaughters ...at 13 12 and even 8 !

Great Job Pedln ...great posts all...anna

Rockfl, welcome. Your comments are appreciated and I do hope you find the book by R. Damien. A good point about the importance of parent and teacher support.

Annie, I’m not familiar with the Mastery Learning program, but if it wasn’t worthwhile, I’m glad they dropped it. It can be rough on both parents and kids when the parents are unhappy with the school programs. As Barbara pointed out, we are now finding more parents opting for home schooling (for better or worse) for other than religious reasons, one being they think they can do a better job.

Annafair, good to see you here. You are so right about the kids being more grown up. They are certainly learning things earlier. Is that a result of our smaller world? We’ve seen the negative and positive aspects of TV for over 50 years. Now there is the Internet and we can already see societal changes.

We haven’t said much about the role of technology in schools. There are many who say it hasn’t changed schools and teaching very much –and it should – and it shouldn’t?

What are your thoughts on that? Are we taking advantage of educational opportunities offered by increasing technology? Or are we throwing and wasting a lot of money and time by jumping on a technology bandwagon.?

Talk about parents caring -- or NOT. This was in this morning's local newspaper -- Hurrah!!

Woman gets 15 days for educational neglect

A Cape Girardeau woman pleaded guilty Friday to violating educational requirements and was sentenced to 15 days in jail. Irma Barnes, of 319 N. Park Drive, Apt. 183, was charged with the misdemeanor offense in December for allegedly keeping her 13-year-old child out of public school for reasons that are unknown. Associate Circuit Judge Gary Kamp handed down the sentence at the courthouse in Jackson. According to the probable-cause statement, a Cape Girardeau truant officer was notified by Central Junior High School that Barnes' child missed school between Aug. 22 and Oct. 19 for "no valid reason." According to Randy Rhodes, juvenile projects director of the 32nd Judicial Circuit in Cape Girardeau, the case is significant because so few educational neglect cases are prosecuted. "It's a very low level crime per se," Rhodes said. "It's been very hard to get evidentiary evidence to get charges filed in these cases." When a child has two unexcused absences from school, a visit from one of the agency's two truancy officers quickly resolves the problem in most cases with a visit to the home and a discussion with the parent about the legal requirements of keeping children in school until the age of 16, Rhodes said.

Oh I'm so mad I could spit nails or daggers or some such. At the beginning of this discussion I was complaining about Seattle's "School Choice" setup for middle and high school. Just got off the phone with my equally provoked Seattle daughter and K. got into her 4th choice (they could list 4)high school.

First choice took everyone within 1.85 miles. Daughter lives 1.86 miles. But -- the school she's assigned to is the farthest of any -- over 5 miles away. They say next year they'll have a school bus. Right now they don't and if K were attending this years she'd have to take three Seattle Metro buses to get there. This school is also considered a dumping ground. Her middle school is also, but she chose that because they had a gifted program and it was in the neighborhood so she could walk.

They say if you don't get your first choice, you often don't get 2nd or even 3rd choice either. Daughter thinks the reason she was assigned is because the school is trying to build up its International Baccalaurate program and K fits the bill for that.

So much for school choice. It makes it hard for the parents, too, because there were things they wanted to insist on, like how many honors classes to take, sticking with band another semester, etc. With K so unhappy over the assigment they feel they have to ease up a bit.

Seattle Schools have case dealing with a similar issue before the US Supreme Court. Would it be terrible if I said I hope they lose?

Pedln. when I attended Seattle schools back in the "dark ages", we attended neighborhood elementary schools. The junior high was a bit less than two miles which we walked to. The high school was further requiring a city bus but still in the geographical area of the city.

My son started kindergarten in 1969 at an elementary half a block away. The district started bussing the next year and he was assigned to a school clear across town (about 25 miles away). There were other problems developing in the district so we decided it was time to leave Seattle. We moved to a small town across the lake where there were still neighborhood schools and education still took priority over race and politics.

We once had open slather on schools and it ended up kids who lived in the area having to be bussed for miles to inferior schools because they could not attend their local school. Now the schools are zoned and out of zone pupils have to enter a ballot for places. This is the fairest thing I think. If parents just abandon their local school instead of getting in there and putting pressure on to change things or helping to raise extra money, nothing changes and there will always be disadvantaged kids having to put up with an inferior school. Our schools are each run by a board of trustees made up of elected parents and other interested locals. It is the parents that have made Brookes school the school it is now.

Carolyn

Redbud, welcome, and Carolyn, I appreciate both your posts. (The family, me included, has simmered down, now listing the positives we hope will follow.)

I didn't realize that we were so close to the end of our discussion. Many thanks to all of you for your most interesting posts. As in our book discussions, here we can agree to disagree and find that another's opinions can add to our knowledge.

We can most likely agree that school districts across the country have their problems, and most are trying to solve them. And we can probably agree that even if we disagree with them, the intentions of most entities are good (such as NCLB and Seattle's School Choice) and they are working toward worthy goals. And we can probably agree from what's been said here, and also in many articles, parental involvement can make a big difference, and that there is still much to be done.

This discussion will remain open throughout the weekend, so if you have any final thoughts please feel free to bring them here.

This topic is so important but complex. I've never come up with a solution. In 1968 or so, our six year son was bussed thirteen miles to an inner-city deep south Southern neighborhood in the city where we lived then. He had to spend about an hour and a half a day, about seven or eight hours a week, on a bus--not really what you want for a small child.

This was a big change from the high ticket Country Day-type kindergarten we'd opted for, but he seemed to take to it as an adventure. Continuing at that school would've been costly for a one-earner, young family with another child. But a deciding factor was our desire not to run scared from the newly-integrating public schools. (Should we have been surprised that some of our highest-profile civil rights oriented friends decided that their child needed the private school.) I hope it was a positive experience.

The parents and teachers in this "projects" area were wonderful. The downside was that ultimately he never had two years in a row in a single class in either one of the two places where we lived.

For our daughter three years later, the inner city came to our neighborhood school, with occasionally different results. At six, she was treated to some adult language from the new male first graders but seemed none the worse for it. I think both of them have been more comfortable with people of different cultures as a result of their early three year experience.

We moved to a community where nearly everyone looked and thought the same while our children were in school. The town today has the full international mix that is almost everywhere, with the usual richness and challenges that result.

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