Biographies . . . Past and Present ~ 8/02 Export

This looks like a super discussion and I'm happy to take part. I've just gotten at long last an autobiograhpy of Basil Rathbone, he of the Sherlock Holmes movies and the old radio shows. And for a different look have ordered a long out of print biography of him, too.

Rathbone appears to be of a breed of movie star which has long vanished from the earth, a carefull, caring craftsman, a loyal and devoted friend, a loving husband and father and an idealistic and thoughtful person.

Reading his authboigraphy, now avaailable after many years again, In and Out of Character, is self effacing and humble, but the man's....I hate to use the word nobility and idealism shines thru every sentence, what a refreshing delight, I've not yet finished it but it's a super book, he talks about Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and how Doyle found himself almost overwhelmed by Sherlock Holmes and actually tried to kill him off, Rathbone felt the same way after was it 16 movies and 7 years of radio shows and also tried to leave the series (which he reveals caused a bit of temporary frisson in the long friendship he had enjoyed with Nigel Bruce, his Watson) , but the series, taken over by Tom Conway and Nigel Bruce's Watson, only lasted one year more.

I've heard that Rathbone's Scrooge is the finest reading of it anywhere, but I've never heard it.

An interesting insight into an actor's life.

ginny

Well that's easy. I thought Katharine Graham's autobiography was miles away the best life written by anybody. I notice that it was discussed here when it was published, but haven't read any of that yet.

Mrs Graham was a lovely writer - she wrote simply - she was modest & funny & I had no doubt she was absolutely truthful throughout - no dissembling & few omissions. The straightforward story of her life as good daughter, good sister, good wife, good mother - & when she finally became publisher of the WP, she was a good boss.

Her life story was part of historic events - some of which she influenced, her judgement of character was noticeable better than average, & her diplomacy & patience were probably only a cautious streak in what would otherwise been quite an outspoken woman. I had to laugh several times - once when she reported that Carl Berstein was on the point of being fired for laziness & incompetence, & again when Robert Redford asked if he could portray her in his film of "All the President's Men" & she refused. She made her refusal sound prim. Then after Redford screened the film for the WP staff, she said "I wish I'd been in it now". Now, that's just the sort of ordinary whinge I would have made. She was so easy to identify with; I had a sad week when I heard she had gone.

Ginny, that bio sounds great and when I get through several that I'm reading now, will get it at the Library. You really think that the "older generation" of movie stars were more moral, better husbands, better character?

I would argue that point, but how would we ever prove it? Hahaha Thanks for stopping by and telling us what you are reading.

BUT HEY, THIS IS NOT JUST THE PLACE TO TELL OF PAST BIOGRAPHIES YOU HAVE READ - BUT TELL OF THOSE YOU ARE READING NOW - THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN SUGGESTED TO YOU TO READ.

Hello Viogert! We all felt the same as you when we heard Katharine Graham was gone - she wrote beautifully in that book which won a Pulitizer Prize. She had quite a life, it would have been daunting to many of us but she was very brave in the decisions she felt she had to make. Do you think, possibly, that she had the help of some of her staff in writing it? She had published when she was younger as I remember - didn't she write short stories for a magazine?

What are you reading now?

Ella Gibbons - - pardon me - I thought you wanted our favourite biogs.

What am I reading now? Biogs do you mean,or what's on my heap - apart from Michael Malone? I keep getting impulses to send for Rosamunde Lehmann's biog but it's £20. I'd love to read it & some days I pretend I can afford it. . . but. I've just finished Tony Hillerman's autobiography which reads like the man - honourable, ethical & good-hearted. Do 'Letters' count? Anybody know if there's going to be a biog of Jane Jacobs?

About Katharine Graham - I'd be surprised if she had help with it - typing maybe & maybe editing but it had the 'feel' of All My Own Work - didn't you think?

As we were talking Katharine Graham and the Washington Post, I was reminded that there is a new book about the New York Times called "THE TRUST" - click here:

THE TRUST

It's rather long, but I think that's about the size of Kay Graham's book. Anyone interested in reading and discussing it? I haven't looked at it yet, but it's on the list.

We have an opening for a good biography in February - any suggestions?

Ella, biographies are a welcome addition to our sprawling nonfiction forum.

I find myself drawn to historical bios, e.g. Marie Antoinette : The Journey (2001) by Antonia Fraser. (That period of European history interests me.)

Last year our live evening book group discussed Isak Dinesen's OUT OF AFRICA. Several biographies of the author are in print. I wanted to know more about the author, so I read Isak Dinesen: The Life of a Storyteller (1983) by Judith Thurman. And a fascinating life it was ! What a love story !

Ella, that's what I'm trying to say, I AM reading the Rathbone autobiograhpy, right now, apparently it's been suddenly made available again. Am also reading the Nigel Hawthorne (The Madness of King George, Mapp and LUcia) biography, just released in London, it's not what I thought it might be and a testament to men whose fathers don't approve of them: a lifelong heartbreak.

I am not sure if these actors are actually the most sensitive people on earth, are trying to get the affection that they did not receive otherwise or are as hard as rocks, but any way you look at it, they are unusual.

ginny

HELLO TRUADE AND GINNY!

Love to hear about what you are reading. I'm just starting a biography of J. Robert Oppenheimer, "Shatterer of Worlds" - he has always fascinated me since I visited Los Alamos where the atomic bomb was first tested. He was in charge of the whole kit and kaboodle until others interfered - quite an egotist - later accused of sending secrets to the Russians.

Ella, Ginny,

John Gielgud : The Authorized Biography by Sheridan Morley was published early this year and very favorably reviewed. I have not checked with the library as to its availability because there are "so many books, so little time".

Ella, thank you for suggesting that we post here what biographies (or autobiographies) we are reading, or have read, and mentioning one we found especially memorable, no matter how long ago that was. That is a wonderful idea.

There was a good autobiography by Lorna Sage called "Bad Blood" that won the 2000 Whitbread Prize for biography. The pity was that she died the following year aged only 58. Her book was in our best-selling lists for months. She was Professor of English at the University of East Anglia where Malcolm Bradbury - with his brilliant creative writing courses - cranked out dozens of young writers like Ian McEwan & Kazuo Ishiguro. East Anglia is a real hot-bed of Eng.Lit. creativity, & as you might expect, she wrote a life story about her weird upbringing that was witty & devastating -- & absolutely stunning.

VIOGERT,

yes, I had heard that about the University of East Anglia.

That is where the late W.G. Sebald was Professor of European Literature until his untimely death last December. He was not well known in this country until the publication of his last book, Austerlitz , for which he was given a posthumous award.

ELLA, earlier this year I read a most interesting review of American Scoundrel : The Life of the Notorious Civil War General Dan Sickles by Thomas Keneally, published in April of 2002. The trusted local library ordered a copy, and it is waiting for me now. This is not a recommendation, just a mention.

Viogert - I've never heard of Lorna Sage and I must know why her life was so stunning. Tell us a little, don't leave us hanging like that - who was she? I love a good autobiography and I'll take note of that one.

And that one might be very good, Traude! We just finished a discussion of the Civil War (can't remember the author's name at the moment but it's in the archives) and liked the group we had discussing it so well we are thinking of another book to read together. Let me know how good the one about General Sickles turns out to be - I don't remember his name - was he a northern or southern general?

Ella Gibbons

Review of Lorna Sage's "Bad Blood"
http://books.guardian.co.uk/whitbread2000/story/0,6194,421322,00.html

First chapters of Lorna Sage's "Bad Blood"
http://books.guardian.co.uk/firstchapters/story/0,6761,421410,00.html

Book circle material on "Bad Blood"
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/british_literature/91273

Thanks for the links, Viogert, I enjoyed skimming them as I don't have the time right now to read thoroughly - off to bed early and early to rise to drive to my daughter's condo tomorrow in another city.

Bad Blood - well, I had 5 sisters and everytime one of us did something the other didn't like, it was always, "Oh, you are just as lazy as_________" or "Quit being so serious" - or such comments - it does go on in every family, doesn't it now. Very few of us are adept at putting it down in readable fashion, but Lorna Sage seems to have done just that.

Has anyone read W by Elizabeth Mitchell? I have just started it and find it most interesting. There is much about George Bush;s unusual life and how it affected George W. In the book George W is running his campaign for President, he is not yet elected. Would enjoy your comments.

HELLO JERRY! - No, I haven't read that one but it does sound fascinating just from what you posted. Let us know how you feel about the book when you have finished reading it. There is another one about George W out that I saw mentioned somewhere, or perhaps I saw it while browsing at B&N.

Father and Son, both presidents - that hasn't happened since John Adams and his son, John Quincy. Can you imagine all the books that are going to come about W's campaign, the election, his presidency, the terrorists attacking us, how he handled it and the fact that he came into office when our country's budget was in very good order and having been in office just 2 years, we are in a state of disorder economically (is panic too strong a word to use for the stock market's predicament?).

How much the economy can be blamed on a president's policies I have no idea, do you?

Thanks for sharing that book with us and do post here again with your suggestions and your recommednation about this particular book.

Hello Ella and all: I see the long overdue “Biography” board is off to a good start. I should have been here earlier, but have just read the previous posts and note that the board is going well. One of the several posts that in particular sparked my interest was Ginny’s mention of the Basil Rathbone title. Since I first read the John James Audubon “1826 Journal” 5 years ago I’ve often wondered if the actor Basil Rathbone was related to the Liverpool Rathbone family that helped Audubon obtain the publication of his “Birds of North America.” This Liverpool regency renascence family included a two-year old son named Basil and I have since wondered if this was the actor’s root. Ginny did the biography say any thing about him having roots in Liverpool?

Audubon’s, “1826 Journal is certainly no full biography of his life, but it is certainly autobiographical describing about a year of his life. It is his first person account of his sailing voyage from New Orleans to Liverpool and his interface with English society of the day in Liverpool, Manchester, and Edinburgh to arrange publication of his “Birds of North America.” Audubon meets and socializes with the Rathbones, Roscoes and numerous other English families mostly untitled rich intellectuals from the newly emerged Capitalist class. His goal to meet Sir Walter Scott was unrealized during the period of the book, but the editors footnote indicated a meeting came later. His goal of obtaining commercial publication of his “Birds of North America’ was realized and he was elected to membership in the Royal Society.

Only two titled Englishmen were principals, one of which Lord Stanley remains well known today through the “Stanley Cup” that I understand he or a later descendent began later in the 19th century when serving as Governor General of Canada.

This title I think would make an interesting discussion!

That does sound good, Harold! Thanks for bringing the suggestion here and, of course, I have many questions; one of which is why did Audubon have to go to England to get his "BIRDS OF N. AMERICA" published? Or had it already been published here?

We must ask Ginny to come back here and answer some questions! I can barely remember Basil Rathbone as an actor - I didn't know he was British, hmmmmm.

Ella as I understand it the technology was not available in the US to make good color prints. Frankly, I don't understand why because the process seems from the book to involve the etching of a copper plate from which a black or sepia two tone gray scale print was made that was then colored by a colorist using light transparent oils. This is the way color portraits were made before color film up until the 1940's.

The publication of "Birds of North American" was self-publishing on Audubon's part. He sold subscriptions to the nobility and rich capitalists. As I understand it individual prints would be sent by mail, as they were ready; they were not bound in book form. The price would be prohibitively expensive for all but the very rich. To day an original edition would sell sky high. I suppose another reason Audubon went to Europe is that is where the money was; that was where there were people rich enough to afford them.

Good heavens what an active discusssion, Ella, Harold and everybody, I don't see the questions, Ella!!!!

Yes Basil Rathbone was British, but born in South Africa, the book opens with him on a WWI battlefield and it's quite exciting, I've now also got ANOTHER book about him and it's clear that in the eyes of his fellow actors as well he was just a super person. Very literate, whole family (including him) wrote poetry (and it's good poetry) was a war hero, wanted to be buried close enough to his wife so they could hold hands, I'm telling you, the man was not only handsome but a sweetheart.

Wrote a beatiful poem on the death of his dog, the man is not a saint and he could have skipped the chapter on "Kittn," a girl friend, but it's refreshing to know that all of Hollywood is not filled with egotistical shallow people.

They've shipped the new Patton 848 page biography, I really look forward to reading it!

ginny

After reading Truman twice, I would like to read a really good BIO of Franklin Roosevelt. I watched a video series of his life that I got from the library but would like to read a good biography of him. I have read some good ones on Eleanor but none on Franklin. Any suggestions out there? Had hoped David McCullough had written one but no such luck! Thanks for help. Wilan

Hi WILAN! Oh, there are so many bios of Franklin! How do you choose? I've read them in the past - I think Doris Kearns Goodwin's biography won a prize of some sort. I'm probably going to make a mistake here, because I should look them up first, but I think her book was titled "NO ORDINARY TIME" - something like that.

Joseph P. Lash wrote one called "ELEANOR AND FRANKLIN" - I know that's right because he wrote another volume titled "ELEANOR - THE YEARS ALONE."

I just picked it up at my Library today to check on some facts in our upcoming discussion on Eleanor. We are beginning to discuss "KINDRED SOULS" - The friendship between Eleanor and David Gurewitsch, Sept 1st. Join us.

This is all new material - I don't think anyone knew much about Eleanor's friendship and love for this man she met in 1947 and it continued until her death. This book was written by David's widow after his death; it took her 14 years to write and it must have been painful for her in many ways.

JOIN US!

What would all you say to having a voting process on a good biography or autobiography for us to discuss in FEBRUARY, 2003? I could get a chart in the heading (like Harold has done in his History Book Forum) and we can all add selections we think would make a good discussion.

SAY THE WORD AND I'LL DO IT! WOULD BE FUN TO TRY SOMETHING LIKE THAT ONCE INAWHILE DON'T YOU THINK?

GIVE ALL OF YOU A CHANCE TO NOMINATE A BOOK!

I'd like a full-blown discussion and Feb would be a good time. Can we include autobiography or is that overtaxing the purpose of this discussion?

Marvelle

Hi Marvelle - NOT AT ALL! I did mention "autobiographies" in my post above - and I will see to getting a chart in the heading for nominations. I've got about 10 on a list that I could nominate and my problem is how to just choose one.

Ella: somewhere you or someone asked me a question concerning the availability of a Lyndon Johnson Biography. Of course the definitive LBJ biography is the Robert A Caro multi-volume set. I have one volume “Master of the Senate” that as the title implies covers his rapid rise to leadership of the Senate. As you know I have had occasion to refer to this book in the “Great Feuds” discussion now in progress. This is a very long work with “Master of the Senate” alone totaling near 1200 pages. This would make this publication perhaps difficult to do as a discussion. After I do more research to understand the current status of the other volumes, I will make another post here with additional comment on this work

Thanks, Harold, we need just one volume if you please! And one that is shorter than 1200 pages will do nicely; looking forward to your suggestion!

I'll try to get that chart up soon.

The chart is coming, but meanwhile:

Did you know that Eleanor Roosevelt found love in her later years, after the death of FDR, and she spent considerable time with this younger, handsome man, wrote him love letters? Come discuss the book that Edna Gurewitsch wrote about these two wonderful people in her life, the book is readily available at your library or bookstore:

KINDRED SOULS

Ella, I am very interested and have subcribed. Love Presidents and First Ladies.

I am reading above biography and find it compelling. The Rabbi Jesus brought forth by B. C. is a radical, dangerous man. He clearly has no recognition of any law, tradition or family connection that might stand in the way of his vision. B. C. is a scholar in the history of ancient Judea; he lets us step into that place and those times and we SEE and so have to take a lot less of the Gospel on faith alone.

Sounds very good, Elizabeth, and thanks for bringing it here!

THE CHART IS UP! WHO WILL BE THE FIRST TO NOMINATE A BIOGRAPHY?

From the book jacket:

"Dr Frankl gives a moving account of his life amid the horrors of the Nazi death camps...."

(Dr. Frankl developed a humanistic theory of psychiatry he termed logotherapy) "stressing man's freedom to transcend suffering and find a meaning to his life regardless of his circumstances."

He wrote this book in 1945 while recuperating after the camps were liberated. It is unlike any other survivor's account I've every read. At times he writes detached from the event. Then he whams you with a seemingly casual remark that drives home the fact that he was a prisoner in these camps and these experiences are his.

A powerful reminiscence and something that can be used by each reader for survival in their own life.

Marvelle

Hey, MARVELLE! That sounds great - is that your nomination? Shall I put it up on the chart? How long ago did you read it and is it one you have remembered for sometime? Those are the best.

I've got so many to choose from, what shall I do? I was at B&N (physically that is) for about 3 hours today - a wonderful place to be, and I looked at a lot of books (see Harold's history forum).

But I bought a book that looks great. It's Napoleon of New York by Paul Jeffers. Here is a quote from the book jacket:

In this probing biography, H. Paul Jeffers reveals the man and the mayor (Fiorello LaGuardia) who rose from an immigrant background to forge a model for good government that cares for its people whatever their race or creed. Jeffers presents the shrewd politican who knew what he wanted to do and how to go about it in a city renowned for skepticism. In contrasting the carefully cultivated, amusing personality that LaGuardia showed to an adoring public and the tough administrator known to City Hall insiders, NAPOLEON OF NEW YORK also explores the early experiences that shaped the character of the man and the motivations that put the son of an agnostic Italian immigrant and Jewish mother from Austria on a path to the pinnacle of power in the greatest city in America."

Is it the greatest city in America?

It might be appropriate to read this as this city has been in all our thoughts over the past year - read a little of the history of New York city as it appeared to those living there in the early years of this century and the man for whom their airport is named.

And as I typed that I wonder what they will name in honor of Ghuliana (sp?)?

Okay, we have two nominations - do I hear a third? A third? Do I hear a third? (always thought it would be fun to be an auctioneer-haha)

Do autobiographies count?

Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt.

I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou

Both of these books were wonderful reads. They were great because they showed how the author over came adversity.

Ginny Ann, how are you doing? Thinking of you. Wasn't Angela's Ashes something else? We did discuss it here on SN...it's in the Archives. What a great discussion that was.

Ella, I never read this, but have wanted to...whenever I'm in England or Scotland, I find this the most fascinating woman, and this biography is said to be the best...Antonia Fraser's Mary Queen of Scots

Have always meant to read it...would love to discuss it with a SN group.

What qualifies as a biography? Do autobiographies count? Memoirs?

HOWZAT

HOWZAT and GAJ, I asked too about autobiographies before I posted my suggestion. ELLA said they can be considered in this discussion. I think 'memoirs' would fit in the category of autobio. Hooray! that gives us more options.

ELLA, yes I'm nominating "Man's Search for Meaning." I read it about 10 years ago and it struck home -- the writer is not emotional but the reader sure becomes so. This is a book I re-read each year and at any time when I need to regain my balance. This 1945 book is still in print and can also be found in most public libraries.

Marvelle

Oh, this is great, I must get busy and get them in the chart at which time I will make them a clickable to B&N so that you may all read the reviews of each.

Yes, Marvelle, is correct that autobiographies and memoirs are included in our voting. I was tickled yesterday yesterday while at B&N to see a new Art Buchwald memoir as I've read his other two - "LEAVING HOME" and "I'LL ALWAYS HAVE PARIS" and was hoping he would live long enough to write one more! Not only are they what you would expect from Buchwald - hilarious to read - but poignant at times too when he tells his life story. Can't wait to read it!

I have been far too restrictive in a prior post on nominations so I have put a note in the header that the nominations will be open to all selections until October 31, at which time a ballot will be mailed.

A February discussion date is planned! Make your selections now!

Meantime, let's talk BIOGRAPHIES!!! Why did you like them, why did you choose to read about that person?

Here is another Nomination. It is the new Harlow Giles Unger biography of Lafayette. I am particularly intrigued by this character who figured prominently in both 18th/19th American and European History. We may be doing the other Unger Biography of John Hancock as a History discussion in which case the Lafayette title discused here will be the second of a matched pairof a sort. Click here for Lafayette by Harlow Giles Unger

ELLA, I think I want a biography/autobiography/memoir to show me a better way to live and to inspire by example. The book has to be well written. I'll also read biographies of people who've overcome obstancles and accomplished something in which I'm interested.

I read Noel Perrin's "A Reader's Delight" which is a collection of short essays on 40 neglected works. Publisher's Weekly wrote that Perrin "places each work in its historical and literary context, provides a tantalizing synopses and offers stylistic analyses..." He also places each work in its relevance to today. I was fascinated by some of the books Perrin listed and one in particular has become a favorite of mine:

"The Journal of A Disappointed Man" by W.N.P. Barbellion published in 1919.

Perrin writes of Barbellion that he "picked the wrong family to be born in...What he wants is first education -- lots and lots of it, at the best schools - and then fame. He'd like to be a great biologist, preferably the greatest of his generation. He knows he has the temperament. By the time he is fifteen, he is reading Darwin, disseting leeches, teaching himself chemistry.... (He) suspects himself of genius. And all the time he's pouring thoughts into his journal. What he doesn't know yet is that he is an extraordinarily good writer.

This journal is one of the great affirmations in our literature. If I had a friend who found life tedious, who was maybe even suicidal, and I had the power to make him or her read one book, it would be the soul-stirring diary of Wilhelm Nero Pilatus Barbellion, alias plain Bruce Cummings."

Why he is a disappointed man is gradually revealed in Barbellion's journal. If you can get your hands on this out-of-print book please don't search the Web for secrets about the author before you read the actual book. This is one of my yearly re-reads.

Marvelle

Please add her autobio to your list. Unfortunately I've lent it out again, and don't quite remember the title. "Personal History"? A really great story of what it meant to become a leading figure in the world after being raised as a sheltered girl before Women's Lib. And how she coped. And had fun. In fact, I suspect that she died just about as she would have wished. On her way out from a dinner, fell and hit her head.

Thanks, Marvelle, both books sound very good, do you want to nominate either of them in addition to the one you have already nominated?

JEANLOCK - we have already read Katharine Graham's great autobiography, one of the best I've ever read. You can find our discussion here:

Personal History

Would you like to nominate another one?

The floor is open to all bids! Spread the word!

ELLA, I was responding to the question of what I read in the way of biography and why and how I find those books. I'm an inveterate book-browser and always making lists from books on books which is how I find a lot of reading material. Don't we all do this though? My list of reading is too long and life's too short.

I wouldn't nominate Barbellion because his books are hard to find. I was a long time finding my copy so I treasure it. Noel Perrin's book isn't a biography/autobiography/memoir (BAM?!) It's a collection of short essays about overlooked books that he recommends. So I guess he can't be nominated either.

Marvelle

Marvelle, What you wrote in your post above spurs me to think about what I get from reading biographies. You wrote that you look for "a better way to live," and "inspire by example." After thinking about it for a while, I'd say I look more for imperfect, flawed people who may or may not have done such a good job meeting challenges. I think I read biographies to find out I'm not alone, that there are others out there who did ok some of the time and not so ok some of the time.....and yes, though it is inspiring to read of someone's victory over adversity, it means as much to know that I'm not the only one WITH adversity.

Betty

Oh, Betty - well said! Although I do kind of prefer it when the narrator prevails in one way or the other by the end.

Funny, it isn't so much that they prevail for me but that they try despite obstacles whether of their own making/weakness or from outside challenges. Yet I believe we are looking for the same basic qualities however we describe it.

There is a quote that has gone through many transitions but the one form I remember best is from Mary Pickford, the silent screen star who said:

"Failure is not the falling down, but the staying down."

Marvelle

I think I undercut my own point. I find comfort and validation when finding out that others have lived not-so-easy lives. I don't have to know what they did about any of it......just reading that others have faced imperfect parents, kids, careers, middle age.....that they have been surprised, sometimes disappointed with life.....these discoveries remind me that we all flounder, that we all have disappointments. Being reminded how human we are always comforts me.

Betty

I've been reading through Jill Ker Conway's 3-book autobiography. Her first, Road to Corrain was discussed here some time ago and is about her childhood in Australia. True North is about her graduate studies and growth as an historian in Canada and the United States, finishing her Ph.D. at Harvard, serving in the administration at the University of Toronto, and, as the book ends, accepting the post of President of Smith College (a women's college). Her 3rd book, A Woman's Education is about her exciting 10 years at Smith.

I just discovered another book she put together and that I want to nominate for our consideration, a collection of autobiographies of women who have lived and worked all over the world....Written by Herself: Women's Memoirs from Britain, Africa, Asia and the United States. It was published in 1996 and was edited by Jill Ker Conway. Here are some descriptions of the women included.....

Vera Brittain (1893-1970) served as a nurse during World War I, the conflict in which her fiancée, her beloved brother, and all his friends were killed. Later Brittain became a committed feminist and wrote extensively about the psychological costs of war. Testament of Youth is a moving and influential account of the slaughter of 1914-18.

Angelica Garnett (1918- ) is the daughter of artist Vanessa Bell (Virginia Woolf's sister) and Bell's artist lover Duncan Grant. Garnett's memoir depicts the sophisticated, permissive, and intellectual world of the Bloomsbury circle in which she was raised, and chronicles her quest to come to terms with her extraordinary family and to pursue her own artistic career.

Isak Dinesen Baroness Blixen (1885-1962) was born in Denmark and followed her husband to a coffee plantation in Kenya, where she fell in love with Africa and African people. She became a writer, twice nominated for the Nobel Prize, and is best known for her classic memoir Out of Africa.

Elspeth Huxley (1907- ) was born in London and raised in Kenya on her parents' coffee plantation, developing a lifelong love of Africa. She wrote three memoirs, including The Flame Trees of Thika, and was awarded the C.B.E. in 1960 for her extensive commentary on African history and politics.

Mary Benson (1919- ) was born to an affluent white family in Pretoria. She became a committed opponent of apartheid and testified against it before the United Nations. After being arrested and exiled from South Africa, she wrote plays and novels about apartheid and a biography of Mandela.

Ruth First (1925-1982) was a journalist in Johannesburg who, at age 21, exposed brutal conditions among miners and farm laborers. Married to the leader of the South African Communist party, First edited a reform journal. She was arrested and detained in solitary confinement for four months of psychological terror and interrogation. She was later killed by a letter bomb while living in exile.

Emma Mashinini (1929- ) was born to a black family in Johannesburg. After leaving an abusive husband, Mashinini worked in a factory where she began her career as a labor organizer. She led labor protests through the 1960s and 70s, and was eventually put in prison for six months, where she survived constant interrogation and intimidation.

Shudha Mazumdar (1899- ) was born in Calcutta and married at 12 to a Civil Service magistrate. In her travels around India, Mazumdar became interested in women's welfare, and the needs of prostitutes and women prisoners. She organized and worked for many women's groups, and after her husband's death, felt free to support Gandhi and the nationalist movement as well, though women's welfare remained the focus of her life's work.

Vijaya Lakshmi Pandit (1900- ) was Nehru's sister and the aunt of Indira Gandhi. She was jailed many times for her active opposition to British rule. After independence, Pandit served as Ambassador to the Soviet Union, the U.S., and Britain, and led the Indian delegation to the United Nations, where she served as President of the U.N. General Assembly from 1964-68. Her opposition to Indira Gandhi's semi-military rule earned her the popular name "Lamp of India."

Meena Alexander (1951- ) was born to an Indian service family in Allahabad. She entered the University of Khartoum at 13, and then earned her Ph.D. in England. A poet, novelist, playwright, and critic, Alexander now lives with her American husband in Manhattan.

Vivian Gornick (1935- ), journalist and scholar, was born in the Bronx. Her memoir Fierce Attachments examines her intense relationship with her Jewish mother, a committed Communist Party member. Gornick has taught English literature, written for The Village Voice, and written books on feminist issues.

Gloria Wade-Gayles (1938- ) was born in Memphis. A literary scholar and poet, she teaches at Spelman College, and has written extensively on black women's fiction and black women's spirituality. Her memoir Pushed Back to Strength traces her initial rejection of Christianity as oppressive, and her eventual journey back to the spirituality of her mother and grandmother.

Edith Mirante (1953- ) pursued a career as a painter before traveling to Southeast Asia, where her eyes were opened to political oppression in Burma. She has since worked as an activist for the rights of tribal peoples and the needs of Third World women. A black belt in karate, Mirante's adventures in Burma took her among opium drug lords and troops of women soldiers, and are told with humor and verve in her memoir, Burmese Looking Glass.

Wow, what interesting women!!

Betty

This is a night for discoveries......the book I nominated is a volume II. A book with the same title (vol 1) is also a collection of autobiographies, but only women of the United States, including Jane Addams, Zora Neale Hurst, Harriet Jacobs, Ellen Glasgow, Maya Angelou, Sara Josephine Baker, Margaret Mead, Gloria Steinem, and Maxine Hong Kingston.

Nominating both doesn't make sense. Which book, as a nomination, appeals???

Betty

William Manchester has written many biographies, and is an elegant writer, ie., "Death of a President", "The Arms of Krupp", WWII, among others, but his two books on Winston Churchhill (sp?) "The Last Lion" and "Alone" really stand out. This was supposed to have been a triolgy, but Mr. Manchester has suffered a stroke that has left him with diminished mental powers and the publisher announced that book number three will not happen.

HOWZAT

Hello BETTY - what great reading you have proposed. Let's do the one of the women around the world if it doesn't matter to you - we are less apt to know those women! They sound fascinating - there's a biography about Indiri Ghandi that I have been wanting to read - I keep forgetting to look it up!

Shall I put that one as your choice in the chart?

And Hello to you - HOWZAT! Oh, they all sound good! Which one shall I put on the chart? Have you read the two about Churchhill? I've always wanted to read a biography about him - started one years ago, but found it to be so dry and so very long that I gave up on it and have never searched for one since; I never got past his foreign service. There ought to be dozens of them so you let me know which book you are nominating and I will put it on the chart!

Thanks to both of you for your suggestions!

WHY DO WE READ BIOGRAPHIES?

MARVELLE stated that:

"I think I want a biography/autobiography/memoir to show me a better way to live and to inspire by example. The book has to be well written. I'll also read biographies of people who've overcome obstancles and accomplished something in which I'm interested"

And BETTY likes them for the following reasons:

"I think I read biographies to find out I'm not alone, that there are others out there who did ok some of the time and not so ok some of the time.....and yes, though it is inspiring to read of someone's victory over adversity, it means as much to know that I'm not the only one WITH adversity"

GREAT REASONS TO READ BIOGRAPHIES!

WHY DO YOU?

I can't tell you my thoughts on reading biographies, perhaps for those reasons that Marvelle and Betty suggested. I look for people that have done things I admire and also I skim the book to see if it is well written. I like biographies that I can remember years from now, remember little things about the person. For example, from those in the heading we discussed I remember this:

Neil Simon, in attempting to sell his first play, rewrote it 28 times without using the same word twice! Doesn't that boggle your mind? Think of the determination! Could I do that?

Edna St. Vincent Millay - of course, her poem "My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But, ah, my foes, and, oh, my friends-- It gives a lovely light." But she had a tragic life, just tragic!

Then there are John Adams' letters to Abigail, Leslie Stahl's pre-occupation with herself and letting her mother rule her life, Ben Bradlee's charm and his love for his job - you don't find that too often. He did - he had a GOOD LIFE!

There are little things I remember about each of them that spurs me on to another biography and then another! None of them are alike or particularly inspiring. Just human.

I wasn't nominating anyone. I was mentioning William Manchester as an author well worth anyone's time if they were interested in reading biographies. All of his books are "door stop" length, but you don't notice it except for the weight of the book. Like the Autobiography of Ullyses S. Grant, verrry long, but after you've read it you don't really need to read anything else about him--he tells it all.

HOWZAT

Thanks, HOWZAT (I love your registered name and I smile everytime I see it) for answering; at the moment I'm wending my way through TRUMAN which is one of those door-stop books you mentioned. David McCullough does a superb job, however, and it's just great!

I like them when I am interested in the subject. Since I am an fan of Elizabethan Renassaince, biographies of people in this time frame interest me. However, I have listened to Cokie Roberts memoir of her marriage and loved it. So for me it depeends on the subject and the author.

Yes, Ella, I'll nominate the Vol II collection of autobiographies of women all over the world, edited by Jill Ker Conway....Written by Herself: Women's Memoirs from Britain, Africa, Asia and the United States.

Betty

Thanks, BETTY, I'll put that in the heading now.

Here is a review of the book:

"From the Publisher
In this powerful new collection, the author of two of the most celebrated memoirs in recent years presents the autobiographical writings of 14 of her English-speaking predecessors and contemporaries. The women who tell their stories in Written By Herself, Vol. II represent three generations, four continents, and a range of experience that is equaled only by the diversity with which they transform life into literature"

I have several to nominate, I can't decide which one and, furthermore, I don't want any of these favorite biographies of mine to be VOTED DOWN! Hahaha What a dilemma, but I will put one up before we vote.

A review of the book "NAPOLEON OF NEW YORK - Fiorello LaGuardia, May or NYC:

Paul Jeffers is a master of the popular biography, and he has produced another laudable work in this genre with this chronicle of Fiorello LaGuardia. I approached this book with only a cursory knowledge of LaGuardia, but came away with an enriched understanding of the Little Flower's far-reaching influence on New York City.

I was struck repeatedly by the parallels between LaGuardia and another successful, highly influential Mayor, Giuliani. Both wielded absolute power ("dictatorial," to their detractors), did not brook dissent easily, ran as anti-machine reformers (barely gaining office initially but subsequently amassing larger majorities), assailed corruption and malfeasance, and left New York City a markedly better place than they found it. Reviewer: Steve Iaco

I found the above review to be exactly how I felt about the book; in several places the similarity between the two mayors - LaGuardia and Giuliani are mentioned, particularly were these two alike during crises as we recently had on 9/11.

It's a five-star biography all the way and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I thought this was a site to talk about biographies and memoirs and such. What vote?

HOWZAT

Yes, it is, HOWZAT! But we thought it would be fun to do this a couple of times a year, so we asked for opinions and most agreed. You can see the nominations in the heading.

Meanwhile, it is conversation about biographies - WHAT HAVE YOU READ LATELY?

One of the best autobiographies I've ever read is "YEAGER" - who was helped in this endeavor by a Leo Janos. Perhaps by paraphrasing the first paragraph in the book, I can give you an idea of its contents. As many of you will realize, Chuck Yeager was the first to break the sound barrier in his Air Force plane, and in 1948 President Truman presented him with a trophy at the White House; his parents came from Hamlin, West Virginia, where there were two Methodist churches; one was for the Southerm Methodists, all Democrats; the other was the Northern Methodists, hardcore Republicans.

Yeager's Dad refused to shake hands with Truman, hating all Democrats, and his mother, very embarrassed, tried to cover it up by exchanging recipes for cornbread with the President.

Give you an idea of how good this book is?

If I proposed it for December, will any of you discuss it with me?

This is just a follow-up. Was JEANLOCK nominating "Personal History" by Katherine Graham? Isn't this the memoir of her years as the Washington Post editor? I think this book won a Pulitzer. I can't second the nomination -- not needed for one thing, and for another I haven't read the book.

Marvelle

Yes, she did, Marvelle, but as I told her we have already read and discussed the book and it can be found in our archives. I loved the book, one of the best!

Here is the URL for Katharine Graham's book in the archives:

Personal History

A few reviews of Chuck Yeager's autobiography for you to peruse:

"From Donal Henahan - The New York Times Book Review Written in a disarmingly flat, down-home style, with the help of Leo Janos, a former correspondent for Time, 'Yeager' may read like a boy's adventure fantasy but is plain, documented truth. All his life, the self-described West Virginia hillbilly has needed to be the first, the fastest, the smartest, the toughest, the best. The record will show that he usually was all of the above. . . . Some readers might very well not approve of this hotshot hero. Some well-placed Air Force people did not, as is evinced in the trouble he had in obtaining his test pilot's certification even after exceeding the speed of sound"

"General Chuck Yeager, the greatest test pilot of them all — the first man to fly faster than the speed of sound . . .the World War II flying ace who shot down a Messerschmitt jet with a prop-driven P-51 Mustang . . .the hero who defined a certain quality that all hotshot fly-boys of the postwar era aimed to achieve: the right stuff.

Now Chuck Yeager tells his whole incredible life story with the same "wide-open, full throttle" approach that has marked his astonishing career. What it was really like enaging in do-or-die dogfights over Nazi Europe. How after being shot over occupied France, Yeager somehow managed to escape. The amazing behind-the-scenes story of smashing the sound barrier despite cracked ribs from a riding accident days before.

The entire story is here, in Yeager's own words, and in wondeful insights from his wife and those friends and colleagues who have known him best. It is the personal and public story of a man who settled for nothing less than excellence, a one-of-a-kind portrait of a true American hero."

YEAGER, an autobiography

One of the ones I've never forgotten. It's wonderful! Anyone want to read and discuss it sometime?

I would love to read and discuss the Yeager biography. Anyone who likes Chuck Yeager will LOVE the film The Right Stuff as he is the main character as played by a young Sam Shepherd. (Sorry Sam.)

I just ordered a hardback copy from half.com for $.75 plus $3.20 postage.

Good, good, I need two more in order to make a quorum for a discussion. What do you all say?

Shall we discuss it in December? It's an inspiring story!

Right now I'm reading Richard Rodriguez and Dervla Murphy.

Rodriguez is from Mestizo parents who migrated to the United States from Mexico. Rodriguez was born in San Francisco and raised in Sacremento. He is an essayist, primarily, but he has two autobiographical books of note; "The Hunger of Memory" and "Days of Obligation: An Argument With My Mexican Father". He is a wordsmith of the highest order and the connections his mind makes are sometimes stunning and he knows his history well. He appears regularly on The Newshour with Jim Lehrer on PBS.

Dervla Murphy is an Irish lady who travels by foot, mule, horse and bicycle then writes books about what happened. Right now I'm trudging along behind her and her daughter Rachel in the country of Cameroon in Africa. So far, I've read four of her adventures and look forward to reading all the others, as I can find them. She never married and has the one child. Rachel has traveled with Dervla since she was three years old, except when she was in school.

HOWZAT

Ooooo, they sound good, HOWZAT! Where did Dervia get the money to constantly travel around like that?

What is the Flying Red Horse of Dallas?

Thanks for telling us about the books. I made note of them on my list which if I lived to be 100 I will never finish, but dream about anyway.

Dervla Murphy writes books about her travels. Her books sell very well in The British Isles, the Continent and Europe. Only in recent years has she become an "American item", and used copies of her books are quite pricey. Dervla left school at 14 to care for her ailing mother, and only after her death was Dervla able to begin her life's dream of traveling by bicycle from Ireland to India. And account of that journey is recorded in her first book, "Full Tilt". Since then she has traveled Europe, Asia and Africa extensively. An amazing woman, a modern day Isabella Bird. And her daughter Rachel is a chip off the old block.

I have written elsewhere on Seniornet about The Flying Red Horse atop the Magnolia Building in downtown Dallas. Suffice to say, it is a landmark now nearly swallowed up by skyscrapers--The Magnolia Building used to be the tallest edifice in Dallas. But it's still there, a winged horse in red neon. An icon that thrilled me as a child, and still to this day.

HOWZAT

ELIZABETH N: Please post a message if you are interested in discussing CHUCK YEAGER's book; we have set a date for December and I can't wait. I'm now reading it for the second time after it has sat on my bookshelves for about 10 years. It was written in 1985 and I must look him up on the Internet to see if he is still living. Click here to post your interest (or anyone else who would like to join): Yeager, An autobiography

I sure do want to join the Chuck Yeager discussion, Ella, and I would like to urge participants to find a copy of The Right Stuff film--it's so interesting about him and I believe he was a consultant on the film.

Thanks, Elizabeth - I just returned from out of town and am catching up. But I think the Chuck Yeager discussion will be a go - who doesn't know this fascinating guy!!!

Do post and I look forward to it! Do you know I don't think I've seen that movie???? I remember the title though - that doesn't matter, I'll watch it again! Probably my library has it - oh, this will be a good discussion!

Anyone interested in reading a biography of Gandhi? I can think of two books offhand.

"Gandhi's Truth: On the Origins of Militant Nonviolence" by Erik Homburger Erickson

"Gandhi's Passion: The Life and Legacy of Mahatma Gandhi" by Stanley Wolpert.

There are so many books on Gandhi and perhaps another one would be more suitable than the two I mentioned.

Marvelle

Yes, yes, I'm interested, Marvelle. I've long wanted to read something about Ghandi - have you read either of those books? I always like to look at a book and read a bit of it before I recommend it, do you?

And that is why I feel comfortable recommending a new autobiography, although it is called a "memoir" - is there a difference? - written by Kien Nguyen titled "THE UNWANTED." The author, now a dentist in NYC, was born to a Vietnamese mother and an American soldier and the book is riveting! Anyone interested? I picked up the book at the Library today and can't put it down.

ELLA, both Gandhi books are outstanding works of scholarship. I've read Erickson's "Gandhi's Truth" which is highly respected and I would recommend it. I'm currently reading Wolpert's "Gandhi's Passion" which I also like but it may be difficult to accept the major theme of the book which is passion in action. Here's a small part of the introduction in "Gandhi's Passion":

From an 1920 essay written by Gandhi -- 'The purer the suffering (tapas), the greater the progress. Hence did the sacrifice of Jesus suffice to free a sorrowful world .... If India wishes to see the Kingdom of God established on earth, instead of that of Satan which has enveloped Euorpe ....[w]e must go through suffering.'

More from the author: "Gandhi equated Ahimsa (Non-Violence), or as he preferred to define it, Love, with God. He also believed that 'Truth (Satya) is God,' devoting most of his life to the passionate quest of 'seeing' God by living in perfect harmony with His golden attributes. Gandhi's passionate embrace of tapas, moreover, taught him to forget fear. He incorporated that fearless mantra into his life's mission to liberate his followers from fear's self-imposed army. Armed with Ahimsa, Satya, and tapas, Gandhi transformed his frail, naked body and fearless soul into an all but impregnable fortress."

The remainder of the book is a linear tale of his life with that emphasis on tapas.

There is another alternative title which was authored by Gandhi, "Gandhi's Autobiography: The Story of My Experiments with Truth." it is well-written and easy to read. It has more philosophy than the others and less linear time and less seamless history (there are gaps in time), but I would recommend this book also.

Marvelle

ELLA, I'm going to see if "THE UNWANTED" is in our library yet to scan it first and maybe then order it from B&N. The reviews in B&N equal your enthusiasm for the book.

So many books now are called memoirs and I wonder if the difference between that and an autobiography is that the memoir is looser in structure and time and with more reflection.
__________________________

I wrote earlier about reading the memoir "Me and Shakespeare" by Herman Gollob. I love this book and I'm learning a lot, especially when the author starts teaching Shakespeare in a Lifelong Learning school and he and the students and the reader learn together. There is a frustration though and that's why I can't suggest it for a group discussion.

Gollob -- or Herm as he calls himself and as I like to think of him since I feel we're old chums -- Herm is a retired book editor from Little, Brown and/or Harper. He has an extensive background in books. As I started to read "Me and Shakespeare" I kept noting, and getting interested i, all the books about Shakespeare that he read and referred to. Finally I turned to the back of the book to see the Bibliography. Do you guess the frustration? No bibliography.

Also no index even though he drops-names left and right and the Table of Contents is so slim as to be non-existent -- 341 pages of the book and only 3 loosely worded subdivisions in the table of contents.

Herm, I'm disappointed and you a former book editor.

Still love the book and I'm keeping a running list of the books and films he mentions. I recommend it to anyone who won't be frustrated by its lack of structure. You'll get a progressive insight into Shakespeare but it's a book for the adventurous only, like sky divers.

Marvelle

Maybe calling a book a memoir is a way of telling the reader not to expect verifiable facts? The author plays with dates, people, events to make a complete story or to reach his point? Maybe the author even invents?

If that's so, the memoir of a famous person might be frustrating for there would be news clippings, interviews, etc that could be used to determine the truth (by readers and critics).

If "The Autobiography of Benjamain Franklin" had been written today, wouldn't it be called a memoir and not an autobiography?

Marvelle

Thanks, Marvelle, for the suggestions of books by Ghandi and I've added one of them to our list to be considered for the future. I just looked up both words - autiobiography and memoir - in my American Heritage Dictionary and they are interchangeable. Perhaps one word sounds better to an author than another?

Personally, I like the word "memoir" better, for some reason.

I understand-- A memoir is usually written about a certain time in the writer's life. Frank McCord only wrote about his childhood, that is his time in Ireland in Angela Ashes. It was his second book Tiz that wrote about his about life in the USA. There is dialog in a menoir that may or may not have been said in that exact way.
An autobiography is more formal and usually doesn't have dialog.

I looked at a few memoirs in the public library and my own library, and I agree that memoirs are informal. I didn't find indexing, scholarship notes, or bibliography in any of the memoirs so that may be one way to determine if a book is memoir or autobiography. Also 'facts' are more loosely defined. These reminises seem to be more popular nowadays and I like "Me and Shakespeare" (but I wish the author had listed a bibliography for all the Shakespeare readers).

Both an autobiography and a memoir fill a niche in publishing. So long as a reader knows what to expect with both there should be no disappointment.

Marvelle

I bought and read Gollub's book. I wish he wasn't quite so full of himself.

The autobiography of Elizabeth Jane Howard is published later this month & should be an interesting life. She will be 80 next month. Does anybody read her novels? Her last book "Falling" was of a well-to-do woman of 70 being wooed by a dubious suitor. Her recent triolgy about the Cazalet family saga during the last war was very popular & televised too. She was married first to the son of Scott of the Antarctic - with a fearsome mother-in-law, Lady Kennet, who said she would stab her if she made her son unhappy. She bolted anyway. In between marriages there were several love affairs with famous men, until she married Kingsley Amis & was responsible for dragging Martin Amis away from comic books & getting him into a crammers for a place at Oxford. Then she bolted from Kingsley Amis.

I was given her second book in the early 50s - "The Long View". It was written in chapters going backwards - like Amis's "Times Arrow" - but it was sophisticated & mature & I was very impressed. I later discovered she was only around 30 when she wrote it, so I was even more impressed. Since then I have read all her books - some several times. She writes beautiful clear simple prose - intriguing stories - subtly uncomplicated. Very unlike her beautifully racketty life.

Anyone interested in the Lady Kennet (nee Kathleen Bruce), there is a biography of her written by her granddaughter Louisa Young, called A Great Task of Happiness". Kathleen Bruce was a gifted sculptor who studied under Rodin. The statue of Captain Scott at McMurdo sound (but situated in New Zealand) is her work. In spite of her fame as an artist, & possession of a determined character, she is buried by history under being widow to the explorer, mother to Peter Scott the wildlife painter & mother of Wayland Young the writer. She was also a friend of Isidora Duncan (& delivered her illegitimate baby). She was a good friend of G.B.Shaw's too, who said (because of her strong personality) that their warm friendship was the nearest he ever came to homsexuality.

Hi, VIOGERT! Thanks for that recommendation; it's strange how Scott's expedition to the Antarctic keeps coming up in our discussions. Not long ago, we discussed the book "ICEBOUND" and, of course, McMurdo Sound was the base from which those intrepid travelers left and returned to after a year spent on the ice.

Howard's book sounds great and I'm putting it on my list which is way too long.................

VIOGERT - do you want to nominate an autobiography or biography to be read sometime in the future? Perhaps Howard's book? Just let me know and I'll put it in the heading.

We will be voting at the end of this month - I'll send out an email.

Here is an on-line magazine I just found. It has reviews of biographies and much more.
http://januarymagazine.com/

Ella Gibbons - - thank you for the offer to nominate a book -especially as I suspect I'll be enthusiastic about Elizabeth Jane Howard's "Slipstream" after I've read it. Do you need nominations as soon as possible? Could I withdraw it later if it turns out not to be very good? I was mistaken about her 80th birthday, it isn't until next year.

VIOGERT! I did post earlier that we would be voting about the end of October, but I have a BIL who is seriously ill and I may not be able to get the letters with nominations out that soon. Have the book discussion - DUTY - to start November lst - and, of course, will be starting that and sending out letters of notice.

With all that is going on in my life I think it will be okay if you finish reading the book and let us know what you think. I may be late getting out the nomination letter.

My BIL is in the hospital and it's touch-and-go and all the children are here, some rooming with me. Busy, busy! And I don't have my suitcase unpacked from Washington yet! OH!

Ella, my prayers and thoughts are with you. Your priorities are in order. Take care of what you need to first. Again, OUR prayers are with you.

Ella, well, bless you. Is this your sister's husband or your husband's brother? Thank goodness his family has you to stay with. Just do what you need to do...we'll still be here when you have more time, later. (And take care of you, too. Get some good post-trip rest.)

Betty

Ella, you are in the midst of some challenging times; the nominations can wait. The important thing is that you do what's necessary and take care of yourself.

Marvelle

Ella,

I just found this discussion group. I am newly returned to the SN and Book and Lit section. I have always felt that there was a need for a Biographies discussion folder.

Biographies is so large that one would be tempted to break it down into catagories: Women, Adventurers, Scientists, Generals, Politicians, etc. Lots of discussions in this one folder.

That way more people could be involved in whatever discussion interested them and more biographies could be discussed at one time.

Just a thought.

Tiger Tom

TIGER TOM! WELCOME BACK, SO HAPPY TO SEE YOU HERE AGAIN!

That's an excellent idea, but it would take up all the room on our main books page, don't you think?

How could we do that? In a way, we do that here by nominating biographies to see where interest lies, but if you like biographies you like any that are well written - am I correct?

I just wanted to let you all know that I appreciate your thoughts sent my way, my BIL is still very, very ill, still touch-n-go, so we are spending time at the hospital; however he doesn't know we are there, it seems so unlike him mentally! A guy that was first at everything, walked faster, talked more, worked harder than any other (except, of course, my own spouse! haha).

I'll try to get out the letters very soon!

While at the National Book Festival I stood in line to get my copy of "SAVAGE BEAUTY" by Nancy Milford autographed and Joan Pearson took a picture of AnnaFair and myself with the author who knows very well how to politely NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS! hahah Those t-shirts we were all wearing, though colorful, did nothing for a person's self-esteem! hahaha

Ella,

Hope your BIL recovers. Time is the great healer so I guess you will have to wait it out.

While I like Biographies I am generally interested in only certain types. Given that there are probably 2,000 biographies on Churchill I guess I could devote my reading time and library to him alone.

I am interested in Military leaders, mostly of W.W. I.I although I have some of Civil War Generals.

Politicians also are an interest of mine. So, if I would want to read Biographies it would be in those areas. NOT everyone likes those types as I do.

Yet, the Biographies should be for everyone. That is why I suggested catagories. I think that they could be fit in one folder. Look at some of the folders in the SN. Many have a number of different subjects of discussion within the folder. I think that the same could be true of Biographies. If need be, you could appoint a Discussion leader for each catagory.

You could start with a few and increase or decrease subject to interest.

How all is well with you.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, if memory serves, I think this NEW category of "biography" is in itself a test of our interests. (I think that's right.) Isn't it a sign of further growth of the general heading of Nonfiction? Sort of a trial to measure our general interest in biography? At least, that's the picture I have of this new category. Just speculating here....if we end up voting on more military biographies than others over a period of time, then we'd be ready to test a separate military biography category.

At present, it seems we haven't needed a separate category to pursue such books as John Adams and Truman, in that the interest and momentum is high enough, and leaders are ready to lead. So, I'm thinking that if you find and promote just the right Churchill biography, for example, it might take off by itself without coming from a category. Ella can confirm or set me straight on all the above.

Betty

Hello Betty and part of what you say is true; however we've known for sometime that biographies have been attended well by our book friends. I honestly don't know why we didn't think of this sometime ago and it could be that we hesitate, at times, to break up the nonfiction folks into categories.

Nonfiction is not as popular with our group as fiction, do you agree? We are a limited population even in society as one can readily tell from the space given to nonfiction and biography in a library; not including the "tech" and travel books of course. You would not have believed that, however, when you saw the huge line for David McCullough to sign his books in Washington.

Tom, Brian Lamb interviewed an author who has written a book encompassing 4 great leaders of democracies at different times in world history. You might enjoy the book titled "SUPREME COMMAND" by Eliot Cohen. Churchill, of course, was one; Lincoln in America another, David Ben Gurion in Israel and one in France that I can't remember. Take a look at it!

Ella,

Will remember that title when, and if, I get around to buying or checking out more books.

I have a number of books relating to Anthroplogy that are about 30 years old which I am going to donate to the Friends of the Libray Book Sale. That will free up two (2) shelves that I desperately need. I might be able to find some biographies I have in my to be read stack.

I guess after years in Government I find it easier if things are grouped by Subject. Government File system was that way.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, Biographies open doors for me that I might otherwise ignore. A well-written, deeply personal biography will engage my interest in subjects like science, the military, the joy of cooking, music etc. that I would ordinarity not be drawn to. In this way, I think, an excellent biography is universal and should not be categorized.

Elizabeth N,

I agree that a biography can open doors for one.

I do not believe that catagorizing them takes anything away from well written and interesting biographies. Just makes it easier to find what interests one without having to wade through a lot of things that do not interest. You might like going through a lot of subjects because you may come across one that will stimulate your interest. I don't want to do that, as I know what I am interested in.

Tiger Tom

TIGER TOM, my nomination in the sub-heading may or may not interest you. There are many reasons why I read a book and many different types of books -- escape, uplifting, improvement, information, fun, etc etc etc.

I initially hesitated in suggesting "Man's Search for Meaning" because it is such a powerful book. As a recommendation, I can say that this is a book I read at least once a year and whenever I need to regain my emotional balance. The book is a reminiscence of his times in concentration camps in WWII written within the weeks following his liberation in 1945 and while he was recuperating. It may sound odd to anyone who hasn't read the book -- and I suspect you've already read it -- but Frankl writes like a poet. His book includes thoughts on the will to survive which can be applied not just to extreme situations but to our everyday life.

For information on Viktor Frankl CLICK HERE

"We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms --to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."

- Viktor E. Frankl, "Man's Search for Meaning"

Marvelle

Sounds like a great book to me, Marvelle! I'm going to read it whether it is voted for or not.

You will soon be getting the voting letter as I hurriedly drafted one tonight and will wait to look at it in the morning to see if it makes sense! This is a "first" for me - this voting procedure although I know they do it in GREAT BOOKS and the FICTION SERIES.

Tom, I'm reading a good nonfiction book which does not fit either history or biography - well, maybe history - it is titled WHAT'S SO GREAT ABOUT AMERICA by Dinesh D'Souza, which measures America against other civilizations, past and present, and gives one a look into the history and the present Islamic world and why we are so despised by those countries.

Frankl's book is incredible, ELLA and I hope you do get a chance to read it. It isn't a witness book since it doesn't name names or cite atrocities and doesn't have one photograph within its covers. Instead it's a "how-to survive in this world" book. Frankl, as a psychoanalyst, writes in a deceptively detached manner and then he'll catch me with one tiny observation and I'll have to put the book down and take a breath. It's one of the strongest healing books I've ever read.

I have "What's So Great About America" on my reading list but, having lived in the Middle East, I don't accept the broad sweeping statement that says all Islamic countries/cultures despise America. I distrust any opinion that claims to be the truth for entire groups of people especially when Moslem countries are so individual and unique from one another.

Marvelle

Marvelle, I don't accept that either; actually this author goes into the history of great empires and I did not know that around 1500 the Islamic empire was one of the greatest ever and the author relates what all they have contributed to the world. It's more history than it is propaganda; however he is, I must admit, somewhat prejudiced in favor of America. I don't think we are as great as this immigrant author from India thinks we are, I was born here, have rarely left the country and I have no perspective on other countries except what I've read!

Where did you live, Marvelle, in the middle east?

It is nice to read different viewpoints though. I can learn that way.

I lived in a number of countries but primarily Vietnam in the Far East, Turkey in the Middle East, and Italy in Europe. Greece also which may be considered European but was really another world entirely. Turkey is one of the more pro-Western of Moslem countries but still definitely Moslem.

Marvelle

I'd like to nominate "With The Old Breed" by E.B. Sledge "Hammer" for discussion. It is the most honest and descriptive book about fighting in World War II I've ever read. The author was a Marine infantryman who fought in Tarawa and Okinowa. He certainly captured the trials and tribulations of the foot soldier from basic training to final victory.

HELLO MORTKAIL! I have already sent out the letters to all those who nominated a book - I did it yesterday. But I'm going to put your nominated biography in the heading now - I'll skip a line or two so that we will know it is for the next batch of nominations. We will be doing a vote every quarter, if not in between. You also might want to nominate this book in the History Folder.

DID ALL OF YOU GET THE VOTING INSTRUCTIONS BY EMAIL? I don't think I said to email me with your vote, rather than put it here. Am waiting to tally them up.

MARVELLE - what a great opportunity you have had to live in those countries! Did you learn any their languages? Their culture? With you with an American company or embassy?

I noticed you spelled Moslem with an "O" instead of the usual spelling we see in the press - "Muslim."

What is the difference?

Thanks, Elizabeth, for your vote! Hey you all - where is your vote?

ELLA, I received the voting instructions and will vote over the weekend. I should really write MUSLIM because that is the correct word but living in Islamic countries (see how I avoided things) -- living in Islamic countries when I speak the word that is how it sounds to me. In my upbringing the word that was used was Moslem but it is now more appropriate to use Muslim so I will try to correct myself.

Marvelle

The book is about Col David Hackworth and his life in the army through WW11, Korea, and finally Vietnam. Rising from a buck private to Col. I feel any Vietnam Vet would enjoy this book.

This is a short promo for the book I nominated. I posted a link earlier that gives a general idea of the book in case anyone would find the setting difficult. It is what I call one of my "survivor" books -- something I read that strengthens me, keeps me going, shows me that I do have control over some aspect of my life (in case I've forgotten I can control something important).

Marvelle

GOLLEE - IS EVERYONE ASLEEP HERE? NO ONE READING A GOOD BIOGRAPHY?

WELL, I AM - you can call it a biography and a history all wrapped up together and you can find it here: THE BUREAU Absolutely fascinating! Make a post and join me!

Also I have subscribed to our Library's email of coming books in the category of BIOGRAPHIES, which they send out each month. Here are the four I received recently - any of them sound good to you?

Blind Faith: The Miraculous Journey of Lula Hardaway and her Son Stevie Wonder By: Dennis Love. Coming: November 2002. For the first time, Lula Hardaway and her son Stevie Wonder join together to tell their story. Based on exclusive interviews with Hardaway and Wonder, and written with their active participation, this is an intimate, and at times, virtually autobiographical look at their groundbreaking and remarkable road to triumph.

_______________

Bradbury: An Illustrated Life By: Jerry Weist. Coming: November 2002. Ray Bradbury is a true national cultural treasure. Featuring magazine illustrations, movie stills and posters, comics, letters, scripts, paintings, photos, book illustrations, and jackets from all aspects of Bradbury's illustrious creative life, this volume pays tribute to this artistic genius's vision.

_______________

Condi: The Condoleezza Rice Story By: Antonia Felix. Coming: November 2002. As National Security Advisor, Rice has never wasted time getting where she wants to go. This biography tells the story of her remarkable life, from her precocious childhood to her role as President Bush's most trusted advisor.

_______________

Nader: Crusader, Spoiler, Icon By: Justin Martin. Coming: November 2002. Deemed by Rolling Stone the "most dangerous man in America", Martin spoke with Nader along with more than 300 people, including close associates, old friends, and family for this sweeping portrait. Nader is the definitive life of a fascinating, controversial man of modern times and a true American icon.

_______________

Who's Sorry Now: The True Story of a Stand Up Guy By: Joe Pantoliano. Coming: November 2002. Everyone knows him as Ralph Cifaretto on the HBO hit show The Sopranos. But before that, Pantoliano was one of America's busiest actors. From a connected Jersey street kid to a successful Hollywood actor who would re-create his wiseguy boyhood in role after role, this is an irresistibly entertaining treat for anyone interested in this true-life "Soprano".

My name is Sal Kapunan and I'm new to the group. I'm honestly asking whether memoirs count as biography. I know that the two categories are different. Still, for the purposes of discussion, do you restrict it only to biographies? The reason why I ask is because I have just written my memoirs of my life during WWII. It is entitled, Surviving WWII As A Child Swamp Hermit. It is available now at: www.1stBooks.com/bookview/13032. Hence, I'm interested not just in biographies but also in memoirs. Someone may respond to my question right here in the chat room or you may email me at salkapunan@mail2world.com or ruesal@juno.com. Thanks, Sal

We discuss both RUTHE PAUL, you may look in our Archived Discussions and browse at your leisure. Thanks for posting about your book and if you are interested in any of our discussions, please join in. We have one pending about WWII - a book titled "DUTY" written by Bob Greene, we would to have you post a message.

Shorter Oxford English Dictionary

Memoir(1567)
1. A note, memorandum; a record - 1755
2. In diplomatic & official use = memorandum (rare)
3. a. a record of events, a history treating
matters from the personal knowledge of
the writer of with reference to particular
sources of information. 1659.
b. An autobiological record. 1673.
4. A biography, or biographical notice. 1826.
5. An essay on a learned subject on which the writers has made
particular observations. Hence the plural of the of the
transactions of a learned society. 1680.

It looks as though any personal record would suit our group?

Viogert, don't you love the OED? I splurged and got the "shorter" one a couple of years ago, I think it's 11 volumes from 1930 or so and it was worth every penny, wish I had a new Not short one. haahahha

ginny

Jeryn - oh, lucky you - a full set! I only have the 2 vol version. I have a Macmillan American dictionary for the spelling - (& different meanings,) but you can really get stuck into OED for hours when the researchers are being chatty. Like the OE word-endings that were freely used to form feminine agent nouns ('stre; ster') - like 'spinster' - all of the women's trades ended like that - maltster, brewster, baxter - even 'monster': a divine portent. F.monere - to warn. From the same word: 'Monstrance: demonstration;proof. The meanings of words are changing all the time (look up prestigious, for one). My other great yearn - apart from having a full set of the Shorter like you - is a full set of Groves Musical Dictionary.

This weeks New Yorker reviews a book about Washington, the reviewer, speaking of Katharine Graham's brilliant book, refers to it both as 'autobiography' & as a 'memoir' in the first few lines. A very good picture of KG by Richard Avedon, making it quite clear what she thought of him - by her body language & her look of utter contempt; she's absolutely beautiful.

On my books reserved at the Library, I have three I'm waiting for, all on the bestseller lists of nonfiction, so it be will some time before I get them.

Am wondering if anyone has read David Rockefeller's Memoirs? Or ABRAHAM, a journey of the heart through 3 great religions, and (oh, gosh, I've forgotten the third, will be back later), but in the meantime what biography are you reading?

And I don't have the author's names with me either. I came very poorly prepared to make this post; however it has been sometime since I've been here and I did want to ask what all of you nonfiction folks are reading these days?

AH I remember, the third one I have in waiting is LEADERSHIP by Rudy Guiliani - No l on the NYT bestseller list.

How delightful of you to mention your preparedness and memory deficiencies! I thought I was the only one who, sitting down to post in "books" on Seniornet, mostly forgets what I was going to say about something I had just read and can't remember the title, the author, or anything remotely interesting to report.

Reading is so singularly personal. As we read, the connections we make are entirely unique to our own experience. That we "share" anything as groups is a small miracle. And the strange things that "stick" in our memory! Reading Jan Morris' essays on places in "Journeys", she was in a Las Vegas bookstore and discovered that the King James Bible was first printed in 1611, with the "Compleat Gambler" coming only 63 years later in 1674. Now, why would that fasten to the walls of my mind like a barnacle on a ship's bottom?

Howzat

Hahaha HOWZAT! You explain so picturesquely (is that a word?> and I don't have that ability. ---"why would that fasten to the walls of my mind like a barnacle on a ship's bottom?"

You see! Those images, metaphors, are what makes writing and reading so great and I envy anyone who can do that!

Yes, it is is true - "That we "share" anything as groups is a small miracle!" And through SPACE??? A marvel!

Do any of those 3 books appeal to you? For a discussion? Would we dare to discuss the book - "ABRAHAM -A Journey through the heart of 3 great religions?" Without going to B&N to review the book, that would be Christianity, the Jewish and the Islamic religions.

Hi Ella and All,

I am looking forward to reading more biographies in the new coming year. The ones posted sound great! I remember Stevie Wonder's music, but I don't know anything about him as a person. I would also like to know about Condolezza Rice.

I have seen a bio about Paul Laurence Dunbar, but I can't remember the name of it. My husband is reading Jimmy Carter's autobiography, 'An Hour before Daylight.'

Hats

Look at this amazing story about JFK's medical records. A book will be published next year.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nyt/20021117/ts_nyt/in_kennedy_file__a_portrait_of_illness_and_pain

Betty

Betty,

That is interesting too!

Hats

Betty,

Thank you for the Kennedy link. I have been going through an illness for about three years and find these type of books very helpful.

Hats

Hey, Guys! Did you see 60 minutes last night?

Bob Woodward has a book out - ALREADY? - on George W. I think the name of it is GEORGE BUSH'S WAR. We must get it and take a good look - a good read - a good discussion? What do you think?

I'm up for it if you are!!!! Let me know and I'll do a Proposed Discussion and you all come and sign in, please!

I'll look later on B&N and post a review here!

The book I mentioned above is titled "BUSH AT WAR" and you can find it here: Bush at War

It's not released yet but a short summary states:

"From the Publisher From the author of eight New York Times bestsellers comes an authoritative account of the first 18 months of the Bush White House, and perhaps the biggest story since the end of the Vietnam War. Based on hundreds of interviews throughout the Administration, Woodward's account will provide the first in-depth, behind-the-scenes story of the new, untested President as he responds to the worst acts of terror on American soil."

You can get it for a good price right now if you preorder - $16.80 - later it will go up, of course, I'm tempted - anyone else?

Ginny,

Re OED, I recently received a Catalog from Oxford Press (U.S. division) lots of interesting books.

The Complete OED is listed at "Sale Price" $995.00

One can also buy an OED CD-ROM price, $225.00 or both the OED and OED CD-ROM for $1195.00. If you have that kind of money laying around loose.

Also offered is the "American National Biography", 24 volume set for $795.00. It contains 20,000 Biographies of presidents, senators, generals, artists, inventors, explorers, pioneers, and Industrialists.

Lots of books I would like to buy out of that Cataloge and a few I have bought. I just wish I had the money to buy the whole thing.

If you want to get a copy of the cataloge and get on the mailing list the address is:

Oxford University Press 198 Madison Avenue New York, NY 10016

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, how about used OED? I found a much, much less expensive used 10 vol set and it's quite nice.

Marvelle

Marvelle9,

Fine, if one can get the Whole set, 20 volumes. A 10 volume set is the "short" Version. I certainly am not against "Used" books and if I could find a good, used, set I too would buy it. However, I would like the full 20 volume set.

We used have a "Good Will" store that sold used books. The store received many donations from families of people who had died and left shelves of books that the family didn't want. I picked up a number of good used books there at a great price: 25 cents, when I first shopped there going up to 50 cents a book later. I Just missed the Britannica "Great Books Series" In excellent condition because I didn't move fast enough and another person grabbed all 50 books off the shelf first. At 25 cents per book that was something I hated to miss.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, the 20 vol is a super set but even used is out of my league. Online used book sites to check for the 20-vol set are www.abebooks.com and also www.biblio.com; sorry you missed out on the "Great Books Series" but maybe something else will come your way at those sales.

Marvelle

Marvelle9,

Good Will has closed, victim of today's economy. Lots of buyers and few donaters. People are hanging on to what they have either out of need or in the belief that they have a valuable "Antique." Want to get on one of those programs and be told that they have a really valuable piece of junk.

Tiger Tom

Ella,

In this month's Smithsonian Magazine is an article on Laura Hillenbrand, the woman who wrote the Book on Seabiscuit. It is quite interesting. If you can, read it.

Tiger Tom

I will, TOM, THANKS! I don't get that magazine, but it will be at the Library and I'm there quite often.

I think it's not too much off the mark to call this book a biography; whether you agree or not it's ONE FASCINATING BOOK and I have proposed that we discuss it starting January lst. Of course, we are all worried about the situation in Washington, the coming with Iraq (will it be war or won't it?), etc.

This book by Bob Woodward (you'll recognize that name I'm sure) gives us a remarkable look into the White House and those in power; their debates, their struggles, their differences.

Post a message here if you are interested: BUSH AT WAR

What have all of you been reading lately in the way of biographies? Let's hear from you - I have read one, started another and have one waiting at the Library. So I'll tell you my story, you tell me yours.

"TUXEDO PARK" BY Jennet Conant adds to my knowledge of WWII; radar which saved Great Britain and the beginning of the atomic bomb experiments - this is a dramatic account of an extraordinary man by the name of Alfred Loomis, a stockbroker who sold "just in time" and was enormously wealthy. He loved science and established such a fabulous laboratory on his own estate at Tuxedo Park that it could be compared to MIT's lab. Intriguing look at the man's loves and life.

Then I have started the book by Martha Hamilton and Warren Brown titled "BLACK AND WHITE AND RED ALL OVER" - which I had heard discussed on NPR.

Waiting at the Library is the biography of Condoleeza Rice who needs no introduction to anyone following the news of the Bush Administration. We will be discussing her Jan. lst when we begin the book - "BUSH AT WAR" by Bob Woodward. COME JOIN US!

I just finished "What I Think I Did" by Larry Woiwode (pronounced Y woodie)in which he juxtaposes his early beginnings as a writer (and stage actor) with the terrible winter storm of 1996 that buried the Midwest, a life threatening experience for him and his family living on a farm in southwestern South Dakota. Excellent writer.

I am reading "The Diaries of Dawn Powell: 1931-1965", a figure, mostly forgotten, in the 20s-40s scene in New York. And, "Billy" written by his wife, Pamela Stephenson, a psycologist. Billy Connelly might be familiar to you as the man who played opposite Judi Dench in "Her Majesty, Mrs Brown", the story about Queen Victoria and her friendship (tongues wagged that it was more than that, but I doubt it) with the man who had been in charge of her husband's horses in Scotland, Mr Brown, after her husband "Bertie" died (Victoria mourned Bertie the rest of her life).

Happy New Year, Howzat

THE SAME HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU, HOWZAT!

Yes, I've read of the caretaker of the Queen Victoria's horses and the man who supposedly won a piece of her heart - no one knows; but I hope she had someone - a little romance - in her life after her precious Bertie died. Sounds good.

Halfway through Condoleeza Rice's biography - an easy read and good; she's an admirable lady! Can't help but wonder where she will go after the White House!

The biography "Billy" is about Billy Connelly, a person living now. He is not Victoria's Mr. Brown; Billy Connelly only played the part in the movie. I was so struck by his performance that I wanted to know more about him.

I am going to read the book about Ms Rice. I do not agree with her politics, but I sure do like her. Is that possible?

Howzat

Whoops, HOWZAT! A blunder there - but I think you can certainly like a person without liking their politics; otherwise I may not have many friends or few relatives! haha

Come discuss "BUSH AT WAR" by Bob Woodward starting January lst, 2003 (there I typed it right - a new Year is always hard to get used to!). Condi, as she is known, (Condoleeza Rice) is closest to our young president and he admires and respects her judgment; furthermore, she manages to keep the peace between all those egos in the White House upper echelon - not an easy task!

Hello, I found your group here while searching for book discussion groups on the net. Id like to test the waters here and see if I could enrich my reading experience. Currently Im reading "The Lions Pride", about T Roosevelts children and the mainly martial influence their father had on them. Im also reading McCullough's John Adams. I just finished J A Hunters "Hunter", a memoir/bio, of his time as an African White Hunter in the early 1900's. And I also recently finished "The Walk West" by Peter and Barbara Jenkins, about a fella that walked across the the country , New England to La and La to Oregon. Well, I must get back to work. I look forward to some discussions here. Lamar Doolittle

Lamard and all, we did a discussion last year of the McCullough, John Adams biography. As a follow-up later this year, I plan to propose discussing “John Hancock- Merchant King and American Patriot” by Harlow Giles Unger (Click Here). This biography of another revolutionary leader has received good reviews and was the runner up in the election on the History Book Forum to choose a January discussion title. It will be summer or later before I can schedule this title, but I thought, I would mention it here as a title of possible future interest for our biography and American History enthusiasts.

Peter and Barbara Jenkins are the nicest people, I've read several of their books, although they don't always travel as a "set". I think you would also enjoy "Close Friends" and "Across China". Welcome to Seniornet-Bookworld (I've been here quite a while and still haven't begun to visit all the other sites available, besides the ones about books).

Howzat

WELCOME LAMARD! Gosh, we hope you stay around a long time, we love nonfiction readers!

About T Roosevelt's children - didn't he lose one or two in the war, I seem to remember he was so proud when they left for war (was that WWI?) and devastated that he had lost them. Of course, we all know about Alice, she of the "little blue gown," but I seem to remember some very sad things about his children by his second wife.

Okay, I should not have said anything as I don't trust my memory at all! If you come back this way, do tell me a little and refresh my mind.

I've read a couple of books about T Rooselvelt - one of my favorite, if not the very first one on the list, presidents!

COME BACK OFTEN AND DISCUSS ONE OF OUR NONFICTION BOOKS. We have one going now - BUSH AT WAR by Bob Woodward and another starting very soon titled "AMBIGUOUS IROQUIS EMPIRE."

Ella the eldest son of Theodore Roosevelt, a Brigdier General in the U.S Army was died of a heart attack after leading his men ashore on Uath Beach in Normandy during WW II. (Click Here). His youngest son had been killed in WW I shot down after a dog fight with German fighter planes (Click Here)

He is my favorite president, too. The was an article in today's New York Times about Teddy, how he recognized that forests did a more important job that produce trees for lumber. That the forest produces the bulk of our fresh water--watershed and runoff--and that public forests should be set aside to just sit there.

Seems today we are forgetting that, bigtime.

Howzat

I agree, HOWZAT! Wasn't Teddy the first president to set aside the largest ever tract of land for preservation and wasn't it the Grand Canyon? Am not sure about that, should go to a search engine to look it up, but too busy.

TR was an early conversationist, but not the first. Yellowstone had been set aside I think in the 1870's and I know it was already a national park when Ruydard Kipling visited it in the mid 1880. The Kipling visit was described in his "North American Journals," one of the best travel books I have ever read.

The January issue of Smithsonian Magazine has a long excerpt from the book: Alexander Hamilton: A Life. The chapter deals with his heroic actions as a 20-year-old commander during the American Revolution.

Also posted this under History: What is the difference between Biography and History?

A biography usually concerns itself with the accounting of one person's life, from parents (or even further back) forward to X time, or of a person at a specific time (MacArthur at Westpoint). This accounting, of course, pulls in the "history" of the "times" of the person. History, on the other hand, is an accounting of the places and times of (usually) an event, and can include all the people that were prominent to the event.

The difference between biography and history is more complicated than I have indicated above, but this gives you an overall idea.

Howzat

Just finished a biography of Ayn Rand, remember her? This book is entitled "THE PASSION OF AYN RAND" and is by Barbara Branden, a good book, a long book, and there was a film made of the biography which won an award at the 1999 Sundance Film Festival.

Would anybody be interested in discussing the biography which has a chapter about each of her books?

Ella,

Was NOT a fan of Ayn Rand

Tiger Tom

DID EVERYONE IN THE WORLD OF SENIORNET STOP READING BIOGRAPHIES?

No, I think not! But did you know that starting Saturday, February lst, we are having a discussion of a great biography titled "THE SISTERS - THE SAGA OF THE MITFORD FAMILY by Mary S. Lovell. These sisters were famous and infamous! Come join in the fun of discussing this fabulous family.

I just finished a Memoir by Mary Higgins Clark - she of the mystery book, she who has made a fortune from writing mysteries, turning them into movies - OH, she must be more than a millionnaire today - a billionnaire - wait until you read what she received from only her second book! Makes you want to sit right down and starting writing your own fortune!!!

But her life didn't start out that way - it started in The Bronx during the late years of the depression. She is our age and you'll want to read her humorous, sad, wonderful story.

Hey Ella, I just got home from the B&N in San Antonio to check if they had the Wilson-Smith Napoleon Biography and the Jesse James Biography. They did not have the Napoleon title. The Jesse James thing looked interesting and while it is not the sort of thing I would choose on my own, I might be interested in it as a Senior's Net choice.

But I also ran across the Branden "Passion of Ayn Rand" that Ella mentioned earlier. Tiger Tom, I too did not like her novels, but I'm telling you all, that is one good book! I couldn't put it down and an hour and a half later I had finished the first 70-page "Prelude" section. The store management was beginning to eye me suspiciously. Yes Ayn had grown-up during the Russian Revolution and had managed to get herself all the way to New York before I bought the book. I intend to finish it and sort of hope some of us might get together to discuss it.

Harold,

I didn'tr care for Ayn Rands Novels or her Philosophy. It goes against my grain.

Tiger Tom

But this is not one of her novels, It is the story of her life that was a tad beyound the ordianary. As to her philosphy whether you agree with it or not she for sure lived it from a very young age.

Her individualism made her the intellectual icon of the Liberterian movement of the 1970'a and 80's. I note the name of my present congressman, Ron Paul appears in the Index of the Rand biography, and I suspect he is the only member of the present Congress to appear in the Index. Some of you might recognize his name as the Liberterian Party candidite for President in 1988 when he was a strong advocate of a return to gold as a monetary standard. Prior to 1988 he had served at least one term in Congress as a republican. He was returned to Congress in 1996 as a Republican and 2 years ago when the legislature passed new re-districting law by a strange twist of geremandering, I am in his distrct. His obsurd advoacy of a gold monetary standard and opposition to the United Nations makes him unlikely to receive support from me.

Ella, Am a newcomer to Seniornet and PC too, pretty much. I love to read and my taste is eclectic. I average two books a week and would love to hear from readers who have found a book that they just can't put down.

Marge

If you liked Rick Bragg's memoir "All Over But the Shoutin'" then you'll also want to read "Ava's Man", the story about Bragg's grandfather. He also has a collection of his newspaper pieces, "Somebody Told Me" in book form. He is a Pulitzer Prize winner, and a mighty fine writer.

Howzat

Marge321: You are welcome here as well as on all other Books boards. On March 1st, we will begin a discussion of the Bruce Feiler best seller, "Abraham-A Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths." Perhaps you will join us in this project. Also I think we will schedule an American History Biography probably John Hancock or Benedict Arnold later this year.

Click Here For B & N Abraham.

Thank you howzat and Harold for responding! My message is Not floating around somewhere in cyberspace! Newer PC people need that reassurance. I appreciate the tip on Rick Bragg's book. Reading is my passion and I find myself waiting for one of my favorite authors to come up with a new book. My reading is eclectic but does not include self-help or how-to books.

Marge

Marge! You don't want to self-help yourself or how-to your kitchen plumbing. Isn't that a wee bit unAmerican? Elizabeth

WELCOME TO MARGE AND ELIZABETH!

So happy to welcome new readers into our midst! Do look over all our selections, we have new ones monthly in all the different genres' - fiction, great books, biography and history and even foreign languages! It's a great time to be alive and find others who love to read!

Join any of our discussions now in progress - do you have any difficulty finding them? Also look over our COMING DISCUSSIONS AND THOSE THAT ARE BEING PROPOSED.

Look over our General Discussions - just suggestions for good books.

And we love to have newcomers! Thanks so much for posting!

I finished a good book not too long ago titled BLACK AND WHITE AND RED ALL OVER - but I forget the author (it was my daughter's book and I returned it). It was about a woman who gave one of her kidneys to a colleague she had worked with for years; both were journalists at the New York Times; it was inspiring - particularly as the woman was white and the man was black and they were the very best of friends.

You can find books by titles or authors at Barnes & Noble or Amazon. com, as I'm sure you know.

I just started "ALL OVER BUT THE SHOUTIN'" by Bragg yesterday, do you think it would make a good discussion? If so, we'll propose it and see what people think.

Naturally I would think Rick Bragg's "All Over But The Shoutin'" would be a good candidate for discussion, but then I have read the book, and own it.

I thoroughly understand why Bragg's mother (after he became financially secure and began to buy her "things") never threw out the old mattresses, just put the new one he bought her on top. All the old folks that I ever knew would have behaved the same. We're talking about people who didn't have "furnished rooms", they had beds, tables and kitchen stuff. I laughed till I cried when he described going into the "guest" room of the new house he had bought her and found that his bed was stacked so high with mattresses he had to CLIMB into it. I mean, I have BEEN in that bedroom myself. These people never threw ANYTHING away. Heavens, some body else might have need of it, or there might come a day when so many would come to visit you'd need all those mattresses to put around on the floor for people to sleep on.

I was 15 years old before I lived in a house with "living room furniture", couch, easy chair, end tables, lamps and etc,.

It is curious sometimes why a person picks up, and later reads, a particular book. Bragg's book caught my eye because of the title (until then I had never heard of him). "All Over But The Shoutin'" is a saying I grew up with. It literally means that something is a "done deal" except for the paperwork (and/or formal execution of) and probably came from "tent meetings" where the sermons went on all day and when they started to wind down was when people began to "talk in tongues" or "dance in the Spirit" or raise their arms in praise while calling out in a loud voice (shouting).

So, if someone, at a gathering of any kind, said to you, "Suppose we should start packing up now?", you might reply, "Yes, it's all over but the shoutin". Or, "Do you suppose they'll get a divorce?" "Well, yes, I believe it's all over but the shoutin'".

I am always interested in reading books written by people that grew up in the general area where I did, and that share common language and habits of social conduct. For example, Clyde Edgerton's whole body of work is fiction, but the people and places he depicts, and what happens, is as familiar to me as the houses I grew up in, the people I grew up with and the places that I know so well. Sort of like grown up "Three Bears" stories that children like to have read to them over and over--they never get tired of hearing them.

Howzat

I think many of us can relate to the frugality of Bragg's mother. Many of us grew up in the depression era and though perhaps not to the extent of the Braggs we certainly knew what it meant to"waste not want not".

I did feel that Rick never recovered from growing up in poverty. The Pulitzer Prize did not seem to alleviate his tendency to be defensive despite of all his accomplishments. I heard him being interviewed on a radio talk show and he still comes off as somewhat defensive, self effacing and shy, I thought. I enjoyed the book and found it to be written honestly without the bells and whistles somme authors use to get the readers attention. Did you find this to be so?

Marge

OKAY, THAT DOES IT! We will definitely propose this book in the near future. We have a nonfiction book for March; going to have a good group of people for it - "ABRAHAM, A Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths" by Bruce Feiler.

In April, I believe one of our Discussion Leaders is planning to discuss "PARIS 1919" and coming in May (tentatively) is Mary Higgins Clark's Memoir titled "KITCHEN PRIVILEGES" - a delightful book and easy to read.

So, how about I propose Bragg's book for June? Will you all come? I'm finding it delightful - haven't got to the place where the mattresses are all piled up on one bed (haha), but don't believe for one minute that people do not do that today. I'm here to tell you they do!

My husband is one and I'm forever sneaking old magazines (he'll read them someday) coupons (that's like throwing out money), outgrown pants (I might get sick and lose weight), etc.

I'm not quite as bad as he, but my sisters will never forget and tease me constantly about the time they wanted a cup of tea and I said one teabag will make three cups of tea - let's not waste tea bags!!!

My dad used to make our "just before bed" tea (red zinger or camomille or somesuch) using only one tea bag! Goodness, you had to let it steep forEVER. Child of the depression, he had the patience for such endeavors and took pride in the results.

Howzat

Ah, depression days! Well I remember the mothers washing bed linens in the bathtub. We children got to stomp up and down on them in the warm soapy water, and then the rinse water. The mothers would wring them out with all their strenggh. Then up to the roof--six stories above the streets in fine sunny windy days to hang them out--well secured so they wouldn't blow away and be gone forever. Kids have so much fun.

And, we kids got to stomp around in #3 tubs half full of grapes. No, not for wine. For juice to make grape jelly! Oh me, I guess they washed our feet first, I don't remember that part. Our feet and half way up our legs were stained purple for days.

Howzat

I bet I'm not alone in confessing that I still wash the barely used ziplock bags. After a lifetime of striving to be able to afford the so called finer things of life I find I cannot throw out a barely used piece of plastic with a zipper on top! And I always trun out the light when leaving the room. "Remember that switch works both ways: on AND off!", still echoes in my head!

"Depression Day Memories" now that would make for an interesting discussion....

Marge

Ella,

There were three W.W. II Generals that I despised:

MacArthur, Eisenhower and Patton. I have the Patton Biography and am trying to talk myself into buying the 600 some odd pages Eisenhower Biography. I am not sure that there is a definitive Bio on Macarthur. If there is one I would like to know the name of it. I don't mean one that is a white wash of the man but one that is truthful about him, his mistakes,his ego and his triumphs.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, I'm pretty much in agreement with you in noting negative aspects of each of the three Generals. In my view Eisenhower was a brilliant administrator but not particularly great as a strategist or tactician. I think this defect carried over to affect his presidency. Patton to me was much too much the martinet. He was just too much the spit polish solder. I think he was lucky he did not get into serious trouble. And MacArthur for me was too much of an aristocrat. In this respect he was quite successful in his hitch as Emperor of Japan.

On the question of biographies of MacArthur I am sure there are many. Arguably here are two that might be considered definitive:

Click Here for American Caesar by William Manchester.

Click Here for Old Soldiers Never Die by Geoffrey Perret

Also there was a 3-volume biography by D Clayton James, "The years of MacArthur," apparently no longer in print. Click Here for Information

Harold,

Thank you for the links.

From what I have read over the years Eisenhower had Marshall behind him pushing him along. Not too surprising as both were posted as the same Army Fort and Eisenhower and Mammie played Bridge with the Marshall's on Wednesday night. I would be willing to bet That Eisenhower spent the time between bridge nights picking the best brains on post and then offhandedly throwing out their ideas as his own while between bridge hands. Marshall thought he was a Genius. He was Genius at office Politics and Brown Nosing.

Macarthur screwed up royally in the Philppines. He completely disobeyed orders to move alll sorts of medical supplies, material, food, fuel and much else to the Bataan Peninsula. He was also ordered not to oppose the Japanese landings but to fight a rear guard action so that his troops could move in to the Bataan Peninsual to what should have been prepared positions. Macarthur spent the entire Philippine defense campaign on Corregidor where his second in command had commandered half the food on Bataan and brought it to the "Rock" so Macarthur could eat well. Little known fact is that Macarthur baragged Roosevelt with pleas to order him (Macarthur0 to Australia to organize a "Defense'of the South Pacific. When it became obvious that the Phillipines couldn't be held and that the American Public needed a "Hero" Roosevelt and the War Office decided to use Macarthur as that Hero. He was ordered to Australia and awarded the Congression Medal of Honor. The war office actually wanted to retire Macarthur but instead settled on burying him in New Guinea and letting Nimitz win the Pacific War.

Revisionist Historians are busy burnishing Macarthur's image. I believe to get back at Truman for firing him.

Patton was, as you noted, a Martinet, a Butcher. He wasn't known as "Old Blood and Guts" for nothing. Men used to say "Our Blood and His Guts"

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom: I served in the Navy in the Pacific Theatre, under Nimitz and MacArthur. Aside from MacArthur's ego trip to the Phillipenes to fulfill his pledge of "I shall return", I believe that his island hopping campaigns, in which large forces of Japanese were cut off and effectively put out of the war, saved hundreds of thousands of American lives. He also was an inspired leader of post-war Japan. It wasn't until Korea, that his ego caused his downfall. But before his big mouth got him fired by Truman, his Inchon landing campaign was considered the most brilliant of modern times. I bet they still study his tactics at West Point.

I understand that Eisenhower was just the kind of diplomat-general needed to pull together the many comflicting allies -- such as DeGaul and Montgomery-- into a combined fighting force to defeat Germany.

Patton was a martinet, but he got the job done and would have beaten the Russians to Berlin if he wasn't held back by politics and lack of fuel. He did a masterful job of moving his army to beat back the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge. I agree that his insistance for spit and polish appearance of GI's who had been living in the mud and foxholes, was over the top. There are a few Willie and Joe drawings by the late Bill Malden, which tell what fighting GIs thought of his dress code regulations.l

Tiger Tom, now that you've told us your three generals of WWII that you "dispised", why don't you tell us who your favorites were.