Manchester, in chapter one, explains to my satisfaction the fall of the Roman Empire. However, I am perplexed by the appearance of the Huns, from Mongolia. I thought Huns were Germans (WWII); instead, they conquered the Goths, Visi- and Ostro-, after being replused by the Great Wall of China. Were they related to the great Khans, Genghis and Kublai? What a Heinz 57 we all must be, who claim European ancestors. He describes the status of Western Europe on the brink of the renaissance thusly: "Like all people at all times, they were confronted each day by the present, which always arrives in a promiscuopus rush, with the significant, the trivial, the profound and the fatuous all tangled together." He ends the chapter with a hint of an eminence grise lurking in the wings, who will set the world on its head, so to speak. Stay tuned.

Jackie - all three sound fascinating; however, at the present, I just don't have the time to get involved. Summer is going by very fast and little time to read!

Now in the fall????

Jackie, After reading your comment about chapter one, the fall of the Roman Empire, I realized I had to read it again (it's been awhile). My husband may know something about the Huns. He would like to sneak a comment in here (when he has time, next week) if that would be okay. He loves this book and thinks Manchester is a fine writer. I'm trying to keep Huizinga's description of the 'passionate intensity of life', the sharp contrasts - city/country, day/night, and the 'vividness' (if there is such a word) of life during those times as I re-read "...Fire".

Valerie: All are welcome, we've had husbands, wives, sons, daughters. Love to have any and all comments. That is what we are about. Even lurkers will post sometimes! Ella: We may be here a while, so drop in whenever you get a chance. This is not really a formally led discussion.

When does the discussion of "Distant Mirrors" start?

Helloooooo, MIss Rhea!!! I don't know but Jackie will tell us, but tell ME what's up with you? I have missed you!!

Ginny

Rhea: The answer is, when ever you're ready. I've not yet started Mirror; I read it 20 or so years ago, but remember nada. Manchester has me in thrall, and I was browsing the shelves at B&N, so much material. Would you like to start us off on Mirror? I'll catch up. Valerie and I are in World, and BarbJ is reading Autumn. We can have a sort of round table. World is organized somewhate chronologically. Manchester started with Rome, the Fall, the rise of Christianity (I'm in the middle of the Borgias) and their role as art patrons. ((Aside: I have always, romantically, been convinced of the innocence of Richard III. However, Manchester's description of the "Survival of the Fittest" philosophy which operated in those days has made me rethink the whole question. Sadly.) Remind me, please, how Tuchman has organized Mirror. Lets see how we can blend these different views. BarbJ, you mentioned art. Since Manchester is talking art where I am now, we could compare notes. Does Tuchman get into art? Does she "do" the popes, or the Borgia's?

Jackie - I could handle the truth about Robin Hood/Heud, but read what Manchester had to say about Richard III in a state of denial. That is one romantic idea I can't seem to give up! It all started years ago - before I even was very interested in history - with fiction - Josephine Tey's "The Daughter of Time." I was hooked and started reading what some of the experts had to say. Opinion seemed about equally divided between good/innocent and bad/guilty Richard at that time. Coincidentally, just yesterday I came across Isaac Asimov's opinion in a book that he wrote about Shakespeare's plays (in 1968). He wrote that Henry VII began a deliberate policy of vilification and that More's biography of Richard and Shakespeare's play "poor Richard was ineradicably branded for all time as the unspeakable monster he most certainly was not."

Now I'm going crazy trying to remember the name of a man who wrote several books about Richard III, the Plantagenets, etc., the whole period. I'm pretty sure he was a journalist or writer who'd done a great deal of research rather than a historian - think the first name is Frank. He believed Richard III was much maligned too.

Of course, neither of the two is a professional historian, but--- I wish we could know what really happened, keep hoping for some new evidence--letters, diaries, an archeological find--anything that would establish the truth--but guess it won't happen. My husband just quoted someone who said that there are 3 kinds of history--pure history/what actually happened (known only to God & Clio), the 'best guess' of professional historians, and what people believe happened - and that the 3rd type is the one that is most important. I don't really like the idea, but maybe it's true. Oh well--guess it's all part of the fascination of reading history.

There is a newish book out, Royal Blood, which sounds very interesting. I, too, was captured by Josephine Tey's Daughter of Time. I have reread it several times, she is one of those authors I reread periodically--she has six books only, so it is not a burden. What I could see, in Manchester's account, was that the standards were different then. I was "judging" by standards of today, plus I have the typical woman's bias against violence plus I lack testosterone. Handicaps, all, right? Asimov's comment interests me; I respect his intellect. Will have to read his Shakespear, also Bloom's. Hmmmmmm. This could take a little time...

Hi Ginny:I have only a small break(pun intended) between books and etc. I did enjoy Tuchman's whole series. But, Jackie, I'm not able to disect the book and lead off on anything, I was hoping for a bit of relaxation. Working with 'words and plays and books-to-be' is wonderful--but exhausting. Reason I have a little time, I fell and dislocated a few ribs and I'm trying to get them back in place.

I'm looking forward to this discussion.

Aha - now I realize why it's been so difficult for me to acquire the right 'historical perspective' for those times - lack of testerone! It might help to actually grasp the brutality. Even some of the women I've read about - devoutly religious, 'gentle' souls - apparently enjoyed hunting, bear-baiting and just plain war.

Looking forward to ...MIRROR too, just ordered ROYAL BLOOD and hoping to get to Bloom's Shakespeare too. I know - there just isn't enough time!

Rhea: You must have had quite a fall! We are happy to have you here, but at such a cost. Let me explain: These three books sort of came up in the history discussion at the same time. I was intrigued, but felt I didn't want to choose one over the others (I'm that way with books, just want them all). So, we are experimenting. Can we discuss multiple books at the same time? Maybe not. It is not very satisfying, is it. So, I guess we will just bumble along, seing what suits. Right now I am on World. I will start Mirror, and we can go along with that. This period is fascinating. Never spent much time in college on European history so it is all new to me.

I'm paying a price. It was a real fall. My hip bones are tender and sore, but I didn't break a hip. That would have been awful. Anyway, I drove my car yesterday and it was fine--well, almost fine. I like Tuchman very much, the college professor we had didn't like her because she wasn't a degreed historian. But her research is fantastic. Besides she is an interesting writer.

Hope to find the first book at the library but since I am in another discussion or actually, three, I will just be lurking here. My favorite subjects are history and the art that came from it or vice versa!

P.S. I meant to mention that the several books that really got me going on Medieval times were, Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett and Sarum by Edward Rutherford plus The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley. These were fictional but Sarum was based on the true history of the building of Salisbury Cathedral.

Due to the fall (mine) I have found time to read. In this case reread A DISTANT MIRROR. It is even better than the first time. Perhaps because I have read other books on the subject and have a better understanding of the subject, or perhaps I just love her writing and her UNDERSTANDING of the subject.

Instead of using the Barnes&Noble site, I got on Bibliofind and got the first book for $6 plus $3 shipping and also, have already received the second book(a brand new copy) for $9 plus $2.50 shpp. So, I am a happy camper!

Wow! While I've been packing for my move on Aug. 28, you folks have been reading and buying. Wonderful. I don't have Mirror yet, I read it years ago. World is great, but I'm on hiatus. Hang in there, to quote, "I'll be back".

Gotta Go! Sorry! My rib cage is better, and I've got a world to conquer.

Just found senior.net, so may be way too late for your discussion... But having re-read "A Distant Mirror" just recently... how many of you noticed the LACK of any mention of Albanians in the Balkans... On hearing their 'claims' during the 'war' I thought I remembered history differently, and re-read 'Mirror' and other books to refresh my knowledge. Also notice the maps of that period, no Albania, etc. Will be looking to read the other two books, wasn't aware of them. Thought Manchester just covered more recent history.

Hello, and Welcome, historybuf2!!

Not only are you not too late, you may be the spark which gets this discussion rolling again! We are delighted to see you here, have you looked in to THE GOOD WAR discussion? You may enjoy it, they're chatting over lots of related items.

Wherever you go on SeniorNet, we are glad you came, take a look around and settle right in here in the Books!

Ginny

What happened to this discussion? I have been reading Wm Manchester's book and enjoying it immensely. Have acquired a copy of "Autumn" and still looking for "A Distant Mirror" in the used books department. I am really enjoying Manchester's book and learning much about that time in Europe. I like to go back and sort of do a mental timeline using all the civilized countries around the world. Have been getting info from an issue of US NEWS and World magazine. They have a nice two page spread contrasting the different countries of the middle ages.Very interesting!

ANN ARBOR What issue of U.S. WORLD is it you are referring to?? Sounds like something I would really like to have.