Books,

Got a new shipment of books today: Bio of Eisenhower, "The Battle for Leningrad", "the Conquerors" and an "Illustrated History of WW I"

Tiger Tom

Remember last summer we did the Jay Winik, "April 1865" discussion. I thought it was a well written book giving much detail on the many significant events occurring during the last month of the Civil War that were to shape our country's development for the next three-quarters century. I see now there is a 2-hour version on the History Channel. I ran into it by accident as I was completing breakfast this morning scanning the TV menu screen. I thought the TV version was quite well done with old archive type pictures and story line by a narrator and interviews and commentary by authorities including Jay Winik.

The TV version follows the outline of the book quite closely and the only real complaint that I can voice is that the 2 hours showing time could have been cut to 1 ½ hour and still allowed plenty of time for commercials to pay the bills. I did not time the commercials but I suspect they were near an hour, but even so I considered it a very good history program. Watch for it on the History channel as they do repeat their programs.

Harold, Ella,

The movie, Seabiscuit, it being released today.

Frankly, I am not wild about the actors chose to play Pollard or Howard. The guy in the Smith role may be closer to the real character than than other two.

Toby Mcguire (sp) looks like a fresh faced kid. I cannot imagine him spouting Poetry or having been brought up in poverty and the rough and tumble of the race track circuit. Same goes for Jeff Bridges. He just does not ring true for Howard. Just my opinion, of course.

Tiger Tom

.''Tiger Tom and All: Regarding "Seabiscuit," the book turned out to be quite an interesting Social history. Tiger Tom and Ella deserve a Senior's Net Merit award for bring it to us. I wish I had participated. Since the discussion, I have read several reviews and made a rather thorough browse of the book during a rare (for me) afternoon visit to the reading room of the local library.

I am not familiar with the actors playing the lead human roles in the movie so will not comment on their qualifications for the particular parts. This morning, however, I heard a comment on CNBC, the business channel, that multiple horses were used playing the role of the horse. The number mentioned was over a dozen (in the teens) but somehow the exact number did not register. They must have been physically well matched.

Ella is still vacationing across the pond in Europe, but is schedule to be back next week to co-lead with Harriet the "Leap of Faith," by Queen Noor of Jordan discussion (August 1st). There is still time for you to make plans to participate.

Harold,

Multiple Horses and Multiple Jockeys.

Several real Jockeys were used in the Movie to do the hard riding for the guy playing Pollard and oddly for the guy playing Woolf who himself is a real jockey.

Tiger Tom

In three short weeks since its publication on July 1, 2003 the new Walter Isaacson biography of Benjamin Franklin (Click Here) has forged to second place on the New York Times non-fiction bestseller list. This second place position puts it just behind Hillary Clinton's," Living History" that is still going strong.

Isaacson was interviewed this evening on CNBC in an interview that centered on its sales popularity that has led the publishers to order another printing. Previously during the July 4th weekend after hearing Isaacson on C-Span, I was left with the impression that this well might be the most popular founding fathers biography since the David McCullough "John Adams release.. It now appears to me that this early impression may be realized.

Harold,

Issacson also has a piece in this month's American Heritage Magazine about Franklin.

Tiger Tom

Harold,

Issacson now has an article in Smithsonian on Franklin. I am not sure if it is an excerpt from the book or not. The more I read the more I want the book.

May have to join a book club to get a cheap copy but I will get a copy one way or the other.

Tiger Tom

Before we do a PROPOSED DISCUSSION on Benjamin Franklin, what do all of you think of this suggestion which Harold and I have discussed.

There are two new bios of Franklin on the market, the Isaacson one being very popular and expensive and much longer than the Srodes book. However, the Strodes book can be had easily at a library - at least at my library, being published in 2001.

Harold has both books and says they cover the same material and so we thought we would present both books on the PROPOSAL and let people decide which they prefer.

Do you think this will work okay? Some people like to buy books; others (including myself) prefer the library copy.

---

In the Queen Noor discussion that started today some very controversial material has been written by the author and I think all of you might be interested. She, as you probably know, married King Hussein of Jordan and is very frank in her condemnation of America as being partial to Israel and discriminating against Palestine and the Arab countries.

We have had a number of discussions lately concerning the Arab-Israel relations, but the book also talks about the historical Great Arab Revolt of 1916 which changed the course of WWI in the Middle East. She mentions T.E.Lawrence's book "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" and the film "Lawrence of Arabia" which she believes portrayed the Arab forces as "ill trained, undisciplined, and incapable of defeating the Turks on their own" and both contained a racist subtext. "The message seemed to be that it took a white man, an Englishman, to make the Arab dream of independence come true."

I know little or nothing about this. I would love to read more - any suggestions for a book or a book discussion? I've never thought of WWI in context with the Arab world, only the European war in which my father fought.

One more idea coming out of the Queen Noor book. She quotes Mahatma Gandhi as stating, "Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct."

Of course, that stimulated my interest in Gandhi as a discussion. I brought home from the library the only book it contained on the man; but I know there are many more recent books.

Any suggestions or interest?

Marvelle: Tiger Tom is planning to do "Freedom at Midnight" (Click Here) in November. While this is not specifically on Gandhi, it certainly is on the culmination of his life works, Indian Independence. A later discussions of a book specifically on Gandhi can follow if desired by participants.

Currently there are 2 excellent Ben Franklin biographies, James Srodes Franklin- The Essential Founding Father (Click Here) and Walter Isaacson,Franklin- An american Life (Click Here).

Back in the spring Ella checked the available Franklin biographies and judged the Srodes title the best for our Senior's Net discussion purpose. I have the book and found its 394 pages easy and interesting to read. Then on July 1st the Isaacson title was released that within 3-weeks was number 2 on the N.Y. times non-fiction list. It is currently the title attracting all the press excitement. This book is longer and more detailed with about 500 pages of text and more appendices for a total of over 600 pages. Also the dimensions of the Isaacson book is a trifle larger making the biography length at least 25% larger than Srodes.

I now have both books and find them both very suitable for a Seniors net discussion. Also I now see that B&N has just dropped the Isaacson price when ordered on-line to $18 though I suspect the $30 cover price holds for in-store purchases. Both of these books seem to tell the story of Franklin's life through its several phases in sequence from birth to death. The principal difference is that Isaacson seems to provide greater detail. This was quickly apparent in the opening chapters in which Isaacson included far more detail concerning Franklins family in England back to about 1560, details that Srodes passed over only briefly.

In my judgment participants will be well prepared for the discussion by reading either book. Though they will have greater detail from Isaacson, the Srodes book appears detailed enough and its near 100 pages shorter text will be quicker reading.

Another advantage of the Isaacson book is more appendix material. In addition to the usual "Notes" and "Acknowledgments" sections I particular liked the "Franklin Chronology" and the "Cast of Characters" that gave brief biographical information on some 75 Franklin contemporaries who figured in the story.

In summary it is readers choice, either book will prepare them for participation in our discussion.

Ella and I are proposing the discussion of a Benjamin Franklin biography to begin about October 1st . You will be most welcome if you choose to participate For more information Click the Benjamin Franklin entry in the proposed discussion section of the Books Menu or just Click Here.

Harold, I know you are not interested in any more WWII books - hahaha - but there may be some who are and I would recommend a current one entitled "Roosevelt and Churchill, Men of Secrets" by David Stafford which has a few things in it that are new (to me!).

An example - Churchill, after the collapse of France, interned in 1940 thousands of aliens in makeshift camps scattered throughout Britain as did Roosevelt with the Japanese. I could go on and quote several more but you might enjoy reading the book for yourself.

Forgot to mention BOOKNOTES Sunday evening when Brian Lamb interviewed a bright young lady named Gretchen Rubin who has written a book titled "FORTY WAYS TO LOOK AT WINSTON CHURCHILL." She said he is a hero to her although he had many faults, made many mistakes, etc., which she writes about. I've always been intrigued by Churchill also and last month, while in England, I visited Blenheim Castle where he was born and died. They have the room on display with the same furniture that was there when Churchill was born - the English hang onto everything.

Actually, although a lovely castle, I wonder if it would attract so many tourists if it weren't for Churchill's connection to it. It is still occupied with the Marlborough descendants.

The author of the above-noted book stated that the break-up of the British Empire was the most damaging effect of WWII on Churchill. I would imagine so; in the book "Roosevelt and Churchill" one of Churchill's gripes about Roosevelt was the fact that he predicted a radical revision of the colonial scene after the war.

Ella,

I THINK i have that Churchill and Roosevelt book but am not sure. Will have to look. If I do, cannot remember if I read it or not. Have so many books started that they become a blur in my mind.

Tiger Tom

Yes, I know what you mean, TIGER! It's a "delightful" problem isn't it?

Excuse me for dropping in and asking but what is the purpose of this board? How will it differ from a non-fiction book discussion. I have just recently found seniornet and have been spending time on the DaVica discussion and have found much more interest in the issues of background and the questions concerning the historial aspects of the societies and myths associated with the bloodline than the book itself. I enjoy the issues of what documentation and associated texual analysis can yield about "truth" verus what archeologial analysis of artifacts can yield, and where they seem to disagree how does one deal with that. Two recent books I've read have emphasised that point, one I can't find right this moment dealt with the Custer battlefield and recent archological analysis tending to attempt to "prove" what happened, the other Baigent and Leigh's book about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Their book stresses textual analysis of the scroll fragements and cutural analyis of the period to date the scrolls in a post Christ time frame while the more commonly accepted archeological results place the scrolls several hundred years earlier.

Topics I would be interest in: Was Lee A genius or just another guy whose luck ran out at Gettysburg?

Was Longstreet Right?

What really did happen to the Knights Templer?

Would we have won the revolution without France?

Was Burr a Traitor?

Finally a question that bugs me frequenly, to what extent is history subject to the conspirery theories or just plan blunders.

Steel Knee: your inquire about the history board and the questions you raise are very welcome. First regarding the History board it was begun as a forum for the discussion of history books and general history related issues by the late/great L.J. Klien in 1996 about the time the "Books" division was begun. L.J. was the discussion leader and I became active on it when I discovered Seniorsnet/Books in Nov 1997. It was never a real active board but there was a considerable interest that led to discussions of the Jefferson biography, "American Sphinx" and the Ambrose Biography of Merewether Lewis, "Undaunted Courage." This early discussion record was lost in a system crash about 1999.

I began this renewal of the History board in July, 2000 and between that date and July 2003 we went through a series of 1,000 posts, Click Here For Archive. These posts lead to a number of book discussions including James Loewen, "Lies My (History)Teacher Told Me," "Mutiny on the Bounty" (readers choice from a bibliography). McCullough, "John Adams," Jay Wynik, "April 1865," and Francis Jennings, "The Ambiguous Iroquois Empire." In additon beginning Oct 1st we will discuss Life of Benjamin Franklin (again readers choice from several books including the new Walter Isaacson, "Benjamin Franklin- An American Life." You are welcome to join us in this discussion , "Click Here.

This history board is not as active as some tending to run hot for a while followed by a cold period of inactivity. This is partially due to the fact that when specific History discussions are in progress we tend to concentrate there while this general board runs cold. This has been the case this summer when I participated in the history related "Abraham" discussion followed by my current participation in the "Curious Minds" segment. Also I have volunteer work commitments at the Institute of Texan Cultures and the San Antonio Missions National Historic Park.

We anticipate additional history activity this fall including the announced Lewis and Clark 200th anniversary discussion tentatively planned for Jan and Feb of next year. I am thinking of follow this with 3-year (May 2004 - Sept 2006) special discussion In which I would post daily an account of that days event from the several journals. I may concentrate on the account given by the enlisted men who kept journals, Ordway, Whitehouse, Gass, and Floyd). I have reprint publications of these Journals. Participants can simply follow along or post their own accounts or comments.

Steel Knee and all seniorsnetters are welcome to participate!

Harold Arnold:

In your July 12th post you mentioned Jay Wink's "April 1865". Can you tell me about this book. I'm new with SeniorNet, so I'm not sure this is the place I should be posting, but I'm interested in books about the American Civil War.

I just finished a Barnes and Noble course about the Civil War, which was very interesting.

I'm working on a writing project about an alternative history of Mary Todd Lincoln and I'm like an "information sponge" soaking up as much as I can about the Civil War. If you can recommend any other books about the Civil War, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Scrawler (Anne Of Oregon)

Scrawler, the Jay Winik book, "April 1865 is a history of the last month of the Civil War written for the general interest non professional reader. I enjoyed the book and found it interesting and informative reading. I did not, however, think Winik effectively sustained his thesis that at the end of April 1865 the process of Reconciliation had begun. Here is my critique written July 29,2002 at the close of our Discussion:

Harold Arnold - 07:11pm Jul 29, 2002 PST (#223 of 236) SN BOOKS CO-COORDINATOR OF NONFICTION

“……... In the end, April 1865 emerged as not just the tale of the war's denouement, but the story of the making of our nation, “ said the publisher on the back of our paperback edition of “April 1865.” And indeed Jay Winik set out to deliver on this promise in his Epilog. I don’t feel he succeeded very well.

True, Winik came up with words like “renaissance” and “transformation’ to describe what he saw as a spirit of reconciliation North and South as April 1865 ended. True the fighting had stopped and the boys from Georgia returned to their homes to again plant their cotton and the boys from Massachusetts returned to plant corn, BUT try as I might I do not see much transformation and I certainly do not notice a renaissance as April 1865 ended!

True after a few years, the two sections got along well enough when it came to foreign wars and there was no hesitation in matters of business and commercial intercourse but to the people of the South their cousins to the north were “damned Yankees and to the sophisticates of the North, southerners were but hillbillies, unclean, lazy, and not very bright. I think the renaissance came a century after 1865- after the social reforms of the 1960’s effectively restored the franchise of the descendents of the former slaves with the perhaps surprising effect of liberating not only the blacks, but the white population as well.

click Here For the archived Discussion. Go the end, Messages 220 to 236, for the above and other concluding comment from participants

We've just returned from our retracing of the Lewis and Clark route. For a variety of reasons, we picked it up at Sioux City, IA, but went from there to Astoria, OR. There are some wonderful things along the way to see - both natural, and new and/or refurbished interpretive centers. The most amazing thing to us was seeing Clark's map overlaid on a current map of the route. He was incredibly accurate. One of the volunteers told us that he knew exactly how long his pace was and could keep track of the number of paces he was taking, and do it while carrying out other tasks. That's got to be one of their greatest accomplishments!

Thank you Mary Z on your trip retracing the L&C path. I think that would be most interesting. One thing that has impressed me with our current 1903 Horatio's Drive Discussion, Click Here, is how much Oregeon and Idaho had changed in the 100 years between L&C and the 1903 Hortaio automobile drive through, and further how much more the area had changed in the second hundred years to 2003.

One of the things that I wonder about is how the L & C group estimated river miles as they made their way either up or down the Missouri and Columbia. That would seem to be most inaccurate bordering on a guess. I have not seen a comparison of some of the L& C river distance measurements and modern checks.

Also I doubt for long foot treks that actually counting paces would have been practical. It requires too much concentration on making the count. I suppose the method can be used but probable it was reduced to estimating the number of paces per unit of time and multiplying by the amount of time and the assumed pace length.

I have been reading the reprint editions of the enlisted men who kept journals. So far I have read Sergeants Gass and Ordway and and currently I am reading the Whitehouse Journal. He was the only private who kept and published his journal. Though these Journals sometimes are somewhat boring repetitions of daily routine, they sometimes add an interesting different perspective to events

Harold, when you see L&C's maps superimposed on current maps, they are amazingly accurate. I'll see if I can get John to post here sometime - he's the one who talked to the volunteer about the measurements. They knew from trappers and Indians a lot of what they would find up to Fort Mandan, and then got more word-of-mouth as they went along the way. One place that was a surprise were the Great Falls of Montana. The Indians they talked to never actually saw the area - just knew that there was "a" fall and avoided the place. They were not expecting the seven falls that exist. The portage that they had expected to take a day or two actually took them a month.

Harold,
First and foremost, I really can't document the story about Clark's ability to measure distances. What I learned is from a Forest Service Ranger at the Lewis and Clark museum in Great Falls, Montana. There is also a display at that museum on measuring distances.

According to the ranger, Clark had an almost uncanny ability to count strides while performing his other duties. He indicated the Clark had trained himself to count strides on an almost subconscious level. He also used celestial sightings at important points along the way, such as where other rivers entered into the Missouri. This allowed correction of distance covered from time to time. He used surveying instruments to determine the height of mountains, width of rivers, etc.

We were told that if you take Clark's notes and maps for the whole trip, that he was off by three miles from the distances as we now know them. If this is true, he was one hell of a mapmaker.

Mary's Buddy (i.e. John)

SCRAWLER, WELCOME TO SENIORNET BOOKS! You might be interested in reading our discussion of April, 1865. You can find it here: April, 1865

If you are reading another good Civil War book, bring it to our attention and perhaps we can discuss it. We love history here.

MARY Z don't forget that in January and February we are going to be discussing the Lewis and Clark Expedition and we want - no, we need you there! And everyone else who is interested in history!!

Hi! I'm reading a great book now entitled, "Blood on the Moon" by Edward Steers Jr.

Here's an excerpt from the book jacket: "Lincoln's untimely death still haunts the nation and fascinates its people. Theories abound regarding the events surrounding his assassination. Did John Wilkes Booth act alone? Were Dr. Samuel Mudd and Mary E. Surratt innocent victims? Was the body recovered from the burning tobacco barn really Booth's? Until now, there has been no comprehensive sudy, based on primary sources, of Lincoln's assassiantion and Booth's escape. "Blood on the Moon: The Assassination of Abraham Lincoln" presents the most up-to-date research into public and private archives and makes clear the important role of Samuel Mudd and members of the Confederate Secret Service in Booth's crime and escape."

The book reads just like a novel. I can't put it down.

Scrawler (Anne of Oregon)

Anne and all, Click Here for the B&N description of "Blood On The Moon," by Edward Steers. It is a 2001 publication. The linked page from B&N gives information from the publishere and a short review from Publishers Weekly. I did not see an available paperback edition in the catalog.

IS ANYONE INTERESTED?

I am, yes! Sounds very good.

"Blood on the Moon" has my vote. I got my copy from my local library.

Scrawler

Annie, that's where I get all my books! We are booked through February in nonfiction book discussions, so we will put this on a list of "Discussions-to-be" list, so stick around till spring!!! It will come, it always does!

When I finish with Ben Franklin I want to take the several weeks necessary to buy and set-up a new computer. Also we had talked of doing a Lewis and Clark title early next year (the 200 th anniversary) I will try to get a copy of "Blood on the Moon." I personally am not a real Civil War buff, but I realize it is still a hot topic in the American mind and will do what the constituency wants.

SCRAWLER - I GOT THE BOOK, "BLOOD ON THE MOON" TODAY AT THE LIBRARY! IT LOOKS WONDERFUL AND WE JUST MUST DISCUSS IT!

HOW ABOUT MARCH??? IS EVERYONE FREE IN MARCH???

Just listen to the first paragraph of the Introduction, plus a few other lines:

(And, Ginny, when I was in Washington last year and wanted to see Ford's Theatre, it was closed due to remodeling, darn, who knows when I will get there again!)

"Abraham Lincoln has become the subject of more writings than any other person in American history. At last estimate, there were approximately 16,000 entries in a bibliography of works on him that Frank J. Williams is compiling! To be sure, a majority of these entries appear as pamphlets or journal articles, but the total number of monographs still ranks Lincoln among the top four individuals in history..................Unlike Lincoln's life, which has been a favorite subject of academic historians, his death has been left almost entirely to the avocational or nonprofessionally trained historians."

Don't know where the title comes from - SCRAWLER, can you tell us? I just got the book and haven't delved very far into it yet.

Yes, I do know where the name comes from, but I'm not giving away any secrets - keep reading! March sounds great - looking forward to it.

Also, you might also enjoy "Booth" by David Robertson. I'm reading this one now. It's a novel written in the first person by John Surratt, the son of Mary Surratt. According to the book John Surratt worked for the photographer Alexander Gardner.

The Civil War was the first time the general public saw actual photographs of the war. Actually seeing dead bodies in mass graves like the photos of Antietam caused quite a shock. Before photography wars were described as being heroic through beautiful paintings. Photography brought reality into focus. How portraits were taken in the 1850s is described in "Booth". I am so glad I live in this time period, if I had to sit with a contraption as described in the book supporting my head so I wouldn't move, I'd probably pass out. At any rate so far it's a good read. And now we have picture phones - is this progress or what!

Scrawler (Anne Of Oregon)

I have no idea what "progress" is as oftimes we discover that what we thought was progress has been the instrument of devastation and ruin of the environment.

Feeling rather lazy this afternoon, so think I'll start your recommended book.

BLOOD ON THE MOON sounds like a winner to me! Being from IL. I have a personal interest in Lincoln. I have read scads on Mary Todd L. too. Is BLOOD ON THE MOON concerned with mostly just the death of Lincoln?

Marge

Marge: The "From the Publisher" description of "Blood On The Moon" in the B & N catalog (Click Here) describes it as a detailed account of the assassination of Lincoln. There is also a brief "Publishers Weekly Review of the book at the B&N link.

How come nobody has mentioned The Devil in the White City? Fascinating.

Welcome Harper. "the Devil In the White City" has been mentioned. You just mentioned It! Do tell us more about it?

It's all about the building of the Chicago Worlds Fair. Wow, what a project! Story about the fair from its conception until it was torn down. How the architects were chosen, and the location. All the problems (which seemed to me to be almost unsurmountable). Really interesting is the number of inventions made especially for the fair (the Ferris Wheel, for one) and also how GE and Westinghouse vied for the lighting contract. GE was going to light the fair with DC and Westinghouse proposed AC. Westinghouse won, with the result that the US uses AC electricity. Amazing how difficult life was at the beginning of the century. And how vulnerable people were - maybe they still are - to predators. Strangely juxtaposed with the story of the fair is the story of a serial killer. I thought it was interesting.

I just lurk here - I'm not much of a participant - and I've been waiting for someone to talk about this book. Nobody did, so I guess I had to.

Harper thank you for calling attention to this book. It is an interesting socal history published just last February.

Click Here for several short reviews from the B & N Site. Hey Ella the next time you visit your library you might want to check this one. I will browse it at our large B & N athe next time I am there.

This Chicago fair in 1893 was indeed a big and important American event that caught the attention of the Nation and the World. I suppose though it is not as well remembered as the St Louis fair a few years later in 1900. I think it was at the St Louis fair where ice Cream was first served.

I note from the B & N reviews there were a number of famous names associated with it including Fredrick Law Olmsted the Architect who designed Central Park in New York City. I did not realize he was still around that late as the Central Park Project was in the 60's and in the late 40's or early 50's he had made a horse back trip through Texas and authored an interesting travel story about Texas rural culture at that early time.

I DON'T NEED TO CHECK IT OUT AT B&N, HAROLD - I OWN THE BOOK AND..... I'M THE PERSON WHO MENTIONED IT!

HELLO HARPER! You and I like the same kind of books, I can tell that right away if you liked this one. I was fascinated with all the history of Chicago in it and the lighting of the Fair - the whiteness of it all. Wouldn't you have loved to have seen it? And, of course, the murders that were going on at the time lent an aura of mystery to the book!

I've been to Chicago twice now - once when I was young a bunch of us went there on a weekend, and, of course, we were not too interested in the history of the city then. But my second time was with our very own group of "bookies" here on seniornet books - we get together (all those that are interested and can go) every year and our second jaunt was to Chicago where we took the historical tour of the city!!!

It's a great city, I'd love to go again!

And I would love to discuss this book - do we have any other people who are interested?

And - HARPER - please don't be shy, don't just lurk!!! Speak up, post a message, join a discussion, we would just love to have you!! It's just fun to discuss a book and you are a reader - that's all the qualification a person needs!!!

JOIN IN!!

Ella - Sorry I missed your mention of this book. My daughter lived in Chicago for a few years and I loved to visit her there. That was one of the things I enjoyed about the book - recognizing the sites mentioned. But how they have changed!! Fortunately!! I would have loved to have seen it, but life was just too difficult in those days. I doubt if the people were ever warm from September through May.

Harold - thanks for your comments. Very interesting. I think at the time of the fair Olmsted was very near the end of his life. (It's funny that doing the landscape architecture didn't finish him off.)

Last night on PBS, on NOW, Bill Moyers interviewed Stewart Udall. Mr. Udall talked about his 2002 book, "The Forgotten Founders". He says it presents a truer picture of how and by whom the West was settled. Sounds like it might be an interesting read. I found it on Amazon, but our local library doesn't have it.

Mary Z and all: Click Here for information on the subject of "The Forgotten Founders" who settled the west. This book by Stewart Udall (the former Secretary of the Interior) and David Emmons apparently seeks an answer to the question, who were these people?

According to linked reviews the authors found these settlers were not a government creation, or a corporate colony, or a Hollywood set for feckless gold seekers and gun fighters, but were primarily a brave and hardy people who came to make a new life with their families. Somehow I am not really surprised at this conclusion. Perhaps others will want to click the link above and read the several short reviews and critiques and post further comments on this book

Please note I have revised the heading making changes in the schedule and character of the proposed Lewis & Clark discussion. The principal change is that instead of the discussion as a subject with participants picking and choosing from a bibliography of available titles, it will be the discussion of a single title with all participants operating from their reading and interpretation of a single book. I feel this is necessary because of the lack of interest in previous discussions of this type including the “Mutiny ON The Bounty” and more recently the “Benjamin Franklin” discussions. Today I recommend that the Lewis & Clark discussion be of the 1996 Steven Ambrose, already a classic, “Undaunted Courage,” Click Here.

I am, however open to other titles should future discussion here favor another title. Another possible title in my opinion more centered on the expedition’s relations with the Indian tribes is “Lewis And Clark Among The Indians by James P. Ronda, Click Here. If anyone has any additional recommendations, please post it here.

I will offer a proposal for a discussion of “Undaunted Courage” or another Lewis & Clark title about the first February. If it gets a quorum of 4 or 5 committed participants the schedule can be scheduled to begin about April 1st. Are you still interested and which of the above titles or others do you want?

Note, I will be disconnected off line after the end of this week for about two weeks while in New Mexico. If the weather cooperates I will try to get a winter picture of the Bandelier Anasazi ruins pictured in the title above. Hopefully we can have further discussion on a Lewis & Clark title for a spring feature.

Today is the 100th anniversary of flight. Yes it was just 100 years ago that man first successfully broke the laws of gravity (at least found an exception to it) and began to soar through the skies. Think how quickly after this day in 1903 the changes came. Within some dozen years the new invention was adapted to warfare and a new bred of men were engaged in dog fights over the western front; within 40 years aircraft completely changed the ways wars were fought; within 60 years the new technology was replacing the passenger railroads and even the automobile for journeys over a few hundred miles; and within 66 years men had walked upon the moon.

This is a part of history, the book that I am proposing that we read beginning February lst. The book is titled "WILL" and the author is a character most of you will remember - G. Gordon Liddy.

I read this book some years ago when it first came out in 1980 and I have never forgotten it. Neither, it seems has Ann Wrixon, our former President of Seniornet. She and I discussed the book when we met at our lst National Bookfest; neither of us can remember why the subject came up but we recalled that Liddy was an unforgettable character and wrote a book that we have never been able to put entirely out of our minds.

So we thought that perhaps we should take a second look and I'm glad we are; a second time around brings so many facets of Liddy's personality that I had forgotten. This is Ann's first book discussion on Seniornet since she left its presidency and we are so delighted she is joining us.

Liddy was raised in Hoboken, New Jersey and writes of dirigibles passing low over his home - dirigibles that were longer and bigger than the largest ship of the time. He was a weak, sickly child and full of fear of so many things, never able apparently to express those fears to adults.

But as he grew older he determined to rid himself of fear - this is the story of that determination, and the book, a number one national bestseller in 1980, has stood the test of time and is nothing less than a quintessential American biography.

Click here and join in the discussion beginning February lst: WILL by G. Gordon Liddy

HAROLD; you can count me as a participant in any discussion of "Undaunted Courage". I started reading it several months back,but laid it aside waiting for SN's discussion to begin. I will have to go back and rescan several of the earlier chapters, but so be it. Thus far I have enjoyed reading it, since I am a history buff and have forgotten what little ever knew about this historic expedition.

HAROLD: Just to inform you. I have had many problems trying to get back into Seniornet discussion groups. Seems like there have been some policy changes at SeniorNet while I was in the process of moving here in the Woodlands. When I reestablished my WebTv unit I found that I could not use my username of Williewoody as long as my wife (sunshine) was also included under a same E-mail address. Consequetly, I had to set up a second E-mail address and another Username. So henceforth I am Williebird. But I still want to be included in your proposed discussion of Undaunted Courage.

Williebird (ex williewoody) You will be most welcome to join the proposed L&C book discussion. I will send an E-mail announcement to the several who have previously expressed an interest. I am thinking of May 1 as the beginning date with a 4 or maybe 6 week discussion schedule. Today in my opinion the best title available is still the 1996 Ambrose, "Undaunted Courage" title. The choice of May 2004 is based on the 200th aniversary of the launch falling in this month.

Also separately I intend to follow L&C here on this board through a series of posts headed, "L&C 200 years Ago today." Of course these posts will not occure daily but maybe a weekly average can be maintained. My post may generally be based on a quote from one of the Journals. Others can make their own contribution and/or give their comments as they choose.

ISN'T IT TIME FOR A BOOK ABOUT HISTORY?

TIME FOR A GOOD BIOGRAPHY?

TIME FOR A BOOK DISCUSSION ON ABRAHAM LINCOLN?

I don't think we have ever offered one, have we? We are about to and a good one at that - one that was recommended to us!

If you are interested, please post a message here:

BLOOD ON THE MOON: The Assassination of Abraham Lincoln, by Edward Steers

This discussion is going to be merged with the Nonfiction discussion and discussion of history/historical biographies will continue there with the other Nonfiction titles suggested/talked about yet.

Please come join us Nonfiction

This discussion is now Read Only.

jane