---Nonfiction Export

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Someone here recommended Richard Zacks' The Pirate Coast about the Barbary Wars and William Eaton's trek to Tripoli. I found it in our library! I'm so excited. I've just read a few pages and it's fabulously interesting!

It mentions another book - a rare one - Horrors of Slavery by William Ray who was a Marine on board the U.S.S. Philadelphia when it ran aground at Tripoli and the 300 men aboard were enslaved. He lived to write about his experiences. I see that the Library of Congress has record of the book. That would be a fascinating story if anyone could get his hands on it.

A Web search on USS Philadelphia yieilds a few hits including Click Here for a short report from the Wikipedia, free encyclopedia.. None of the Google hits I read give information on the fate of the enslaved crew except the notation that they were made slaves of the Pasha.. In 1804 Lieutant Steven Decatur Jr, the son of the hero, led a raid to burn the grounded hulk where it lay in Tripolie Harbor. Lord Nelson is reported to have characterized this operation as “the most bold and daring act of the age."

Note there have been 3 or mor USS Phildelphia's in the US Navy throughout History including a modern nucular submarine.

Harold: I think that Stephen Decatur who burned the USS Philadelphia WAS the hero. That's one of the reasons he was a hero. Also, later, in the War of 1812, he was a hero fighting against the British in the Navy. And after the war he was back in the Mediterranean where he was able to back down the Barbary pirates so that the US didn't have to pay any more tribute and wouldn't have their ships attacked anymore. Again he was a hero. Same guy. Too bad about the stupid duel.

I visited Decatur's house 2 years ago. It was built on Lafayette Square across from the White House. Today it's a national historic site and a museum. Decatur's poor wife went into debt after his death and had to sell it.

Here's info about the museum:

http://www.decaturhouse.org/

--- You may well be right. I was basing my comment this morning that he was the son of the naval hero on the following quote from the linked web site:

The Philadelphia was boarded 16 February 1804 and burned where she lay in Tripoli Harbor with her guns pointed outward, by a volunteer party of officers and men under Lieutentant Stephen Decatur, Jr. (son of the ship's first captain), in the ketch Intrepid.

During WW II Camp Dacatur was one of the three stages of Navy Boot Camp at the San Diego Training Center. I remember it well.

Harold: You're right! I looked up Stephen Decatur to find out about his father. The father, Stephen Decatur, Sr. was also in the Navy and commanded ships in the Revolution and "quasi" war with France. Stephen Decatur, Sr. was the first commander of the USS Philadelphia which was launched Nov. 28, 1799. During his command, she captured five French armed vessels and recaptured six merchant ships which had fallen into French hands. Decatur Sr. was relieved of command in March 1801.

So both Decatur Sr. and Jr. were American heroes. Pretty cool.

I think Decatur Jr. is the one we generally hear about because of the dangerous mission to burn the Philadelphia when America was so angry about its capture at Tripoli - and then his escapades afterward - and finally the duel.

I had not heard of the father being a heroic naval commander before. Thanks for the info!

I remember reading about the battle in New York during the 1776 discussion. That part of the book, I thought, was very interesting. Doesn't this book look really interesting? The Battle for New York by Barnard Schecter.

The Battle for New York

Wow, that does look interesting, Hats!

Marni, I thought so too.

Click Here for the B&N catalog for the “Battle of New York” by Barnet Schecter

I note that this is not a newly released title since it has been around since its Sept 2002 ( original hard cover publication date). Its subject is certainly an interesting one as we found out when we discussed “1776” a large segment of which covers the Battle for NY in the late summer and fall of 1776. As I remember it at least 1/3 of "1776" was devoted to the Battle of NY. Perhaps the Schecter authored title provides more detail since in “1776” McCullough also covered the Siege of Boston and the winter campaign (Crossing the Delaware) after Washington was forced to abandon N.Y.

Harold, thank you for the clickable. I am happy. My library owns this title.

MARNI, do you know why Decatur, Sr. was 'relieved of command' less than two years after taking command? That seems odd for someone with a record of five enemy ships captured, with their prizes. Perhaps he was severely wounded?

Babi

BaBi: I was wondering that, too. I just read that Decatur Sr. was relieved of command at his own request. Maybe he retired. He was born in 1752 so he would have been approx 48 or so when he was commissioned for the ship. He had quite a lot of excitement on his tour. The ship was going for a long tour of the Mediterranean next, so maybe he just didn't want to do that at that point in his life.?

I find Stephen Decatur very interesting too. I just don't know much about him. I have been reading the information here.

Hats: I am having such a good time reading The Pirate Coast by Richard Zacks! It is really exciting. There was a whole chapter describing Decatur Jr's daring raid to burn the USS Philadelphia.

Hi Marni, really??? Then, I will put it on my library list. Thanks.

Sounds reasonable to me, MARNI. After what he had just been through, I can see how he might be ready to retire.

Babi

Last week when Marni first mentioned the Richard Zack title , "The Pirate Coast," I somehow failed to provide the customary link to its entry in the B & N catalog for the Publisher's Information. Click Here. Marni am I correct in my interpretation of the B&N page that the book's subject is the early 19th century Tripoli Pirates and the U.S, involvement in their defeat?

Earlier in the late 17th century there was an outburst of Pirate activity in the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico. These Pirates staged a bloody raid in the middle 1680's on the Mexican coast. It was from a few prisoners captured by the Spanish that the Spanish first heard of the landing of La Salle's French Colony somewhere on the coast above the Rio Grande.

The Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico continued as a hot bed of Pirate activity for another century and a half. In 1826 John James Audubon a passenger on the Delos in the doldrums of the upper Gulf with a cargo of cotton bound for Liverpoolfeared pirates each time a sail was sighted.

Has anyone seen the Disney Film, “Pirates of the Caribbean?

Harold, we've seen both "Pirates..." movies, and thoroughly enjoyed them. They're pure fantasy and escapism. Just for fun, and quite well done.

Harold: Re "Marni am I correct in my interpretation of the B&N page that the book's subject is the early 19th century Tripoli Pirates and the U.S, involvement in their defeat?"

Yes, that's correct, although I'd probably not use the word "defeat."

For you folks who read "Undaunted Courage," I just found out something that shows my lack of classical knowledge. Remember how Clark named a rock formation "Pompey's Tower" for Pomp, Sacagawea's little boy? It's called "Pompey's Pillar" and is a national historic site today. Well, there is a very famous antiquity in Alexandria, Egypt, a granite column called "Pompey's Pillar." Maybe that's where Clark got the name. Apparently, it's one of the most famous antiquities. I had never heard of it until I read about it in "The Pirate Coast" by Zacks. It was one of the sites William Eaton and army passed in their trek towards Tripoli.

Here's a picture of Pompey's Pillar in Alexandria:

Pompey's Pillar Alexandria

Here's a picture of Pompey's Pillar in Montana:

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/lewisandclark/pom.htm

Bob and I saw both "Pirates of the Carribean." Lots of fun!

Marni, thank you for the clickables. The pillar in Montana is beautiful. I bet it is huge.

My husband really enjoyed Pirates of the Carribean. I missed watching it. I am going to get the movie again.

Click Here for a biographical sketch of the historical Pompey who was a mid 1st century BC Roman military/political leader during the last days of the Roman Republic. It was he who put Cleopatra on the throne as the sole ruler of Egypt. His assassination in Egypt by a partisan of Julius Caesar eventually led to the end of the republic and the creation of the Roman Empire.

Harold, very interesting. Thank you for the clickable.

Pirates was great! I'm a fan of Johnny Depp, I try to see anything he's in.

I love Johnny Depp too.

just noticed that CSPAN 3 is repeating their '01 programming on Lewis and Clark......jean

Mabel, that is exciting news. Thank you.

Mary Todd Lincoln

I am so sorry. This is Fiction. I made the mistake of thinking of it as NonFiction.

Seven hundred pages! It does seem like a good book to read, maybe with new material about Mrs. Lincoln.

I'm reading another good book about the Barbary pirates. (The library had several in one section and I nabbed them all!) It's To the Shores of Tripoli: The Birth of the U.S. Navy and Marines by A. B. C. Whipple. It's excellent and is providing a different viewpoint from The Pirate Coast.

Golly, I just read something interesting. James Biddle, brother of Nicholas Biddle who edited the Lewis and Clark journals, was one of the officers on the USS Philadelphia captured at Tripoli and held for ranson for 19 months. You'd think his wealthy family would have helped to come up with the ransom money fast or put pressure on Congress. James Biddle ended up being quite a hero in the War of 1812 and was awarded the Congressional Gold Medal.

http://www.amazon.com/Shores-Tripoli-Birth-Marines-Bluejacket/dp/1557509662

I've learned the most interesting little tidbits reading these books about the Barbary War and the Marines and Navy. For example, the Marine uniform was redesigned in 1826 and the officers were to wear a scimitar with their dress uniform in honor of the Marine performance in Tripoli during the Barbary War. The sword was modeled after the Mameluke scimitar presented to Marine Lt. Presley O'Bannon for his valor in 1805. The sword is still part of their uniform today and is the oldest weapon in any of the US military services.

Marni, I hope you continue to share these "tidbits." The subject is really interesting. I just have a hard time remembering everything and everybody in American History.

the bible we used for fighting fair in our family has been reissued and still makes excellent sense. claire

This book was written by Ray Suarez of The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer; senior correspondent............from the flyleaf, The Holy Vote examines the way Americans worship, how organized religion and politics intersect in America, and how this powerful collision is transforming the current and future American mind-set..............If any of you should read this book you will learn things you did not know , I am sure.........a good read and the right time for it to come out.......I enjoyed it immensley..........

Click Here for Publisher information and Critical comment on "The Holy Vote: The Politics of Faith in America" by Ray Suarez. Thank you tigerlilly for telling us of this timely title by this interesting author who we frequently hear on the PBS News hour.

Hmm, catchy chapter titles in "The Holy Vote:...", and the on-line chapter is clear and sensible. This might be an interesting book to read and discuss.

Babi

Babi, I am going to try and find an online chapter to read. Then, I will know whether it's too hard for me to understand. Tigerlily and Harold thank you for the information and clickable.

Babi, you are right. The writing style flows easily and is very "clear."

Babi and Hats.........bet you'll like it.....I think it treated all sides of the coin fairly and certainly is thought provoking......I learned a lot...........

Do it! "The Holy Vote" would make a good post Xmas, post election, cold winter discussion. Do it!

Click Here for excerpts from “The Holy Vote” by Ray Swarez..

BaBi I could not find an on Line chapter. If the above excerpt is not what you were referring to in Message #34, please post the URL address.

Has anybody else read this book? 2 widows of 9-11 victims have statements therein. And lots of questions. No one seems to answer them, or to even ask.

Someone recommended _The Glass Castle_ here. I am just finishing this memoir. I find it particularly sad and realize that there are so many families like this, just living on the edge in terms of poverty and alcoholism. Thanks for the recommendation. Kathy

HAROLD, I found the on-line chapter in the link you posted, #33.

Neither of the libraries in my reach has this book as yet. Maybe it will turn up later. I don't generally buy a book unless I know it's one I will want to keep. My budget much prefers library books.

Babi

I have this book on hold at the library........I understand it is quite good.....must be......a long line ahead of me.......I am now reading "Whats Wrong With Kansas" and it is making my hair stand on end!

What is "What's Wrong with Kansas?" about?

Interesting interview on NPR with Hampton SIdes, author of Blood and Thunder about the settling of the West, featuring Kit Carson among others. He describes how Carson tried to rescue a settler who had been kidnapped by Indians. Instead they found her body; near her body was a so-called "blood-and-thunder" pulp fiction which recounted Carson's successful recovery of another kidnapee. According to Sides, Carson had no idea that his reputed adventures were being exploited in this way and his failure in this instance haunted him to the end of his days.

Oh Hats! How funny.......I should have have know you would have been here too being the reader that you are............Here you go. http://tinyurl.com/y97lz8

TigerLily thanks!

Thank you Tigerlilly for adding ty clickable link to "What Is Wrong With Kansas." All of you are welcom to include a URL address to a B&N or other site with additional information on a book you want to talk about. Such an entry will be clickable with most popular browsers.

Click Here for information on "Blood and Thunder."

And Click Here for "The Glass Castle."

I'm just reading The Devil in the White City: Murder, Magic, and Madness at the Fair that Changed America by Erik Larson. It's very interesting. It's about the Chicago 1893 World's Fair and a serial murderer - true story. I had never heard of it the story even though it took place not long after the stories of Jack the Ripper were big news.

Excuse me folks for changing the subject a bit however I wanted to let you all know Curious Minds is opened for October -

Wouldn't you like to share the names and a bit about four guests you would invite to be a part of a dream conversation? They can be four guests from history or, four who are currently alive. Folks who you would like to know more about therefore, day dream an invitation to them to your fantasy gathering. Further, day dream the question you would like to ask them that you just know they alone could answer. A fun way to imagine a conversation in a setting that matches your day dreams.

What about a favorite author or, someone who lived during the time that few could read but they were reading Chaucer or, how about some folks who struggled over leaving their home for a better life or, a past King or President who made a decision we still live with today or maybe, an early scientist and just where and how did they obtain their supplies - on and on -

The imagination of those of us on Seniornet is broad and this is your opportunity to share who you would invite to your dream conversation. Here is the link to Curious Minds for October. patwest, "Curious Minds ~ Who's Coming to Dinner? - Starting - October 16" #107

The Devil in the White City was so interesting as it followed the fair from its inception to its glorious reality! The serial killer portion of the book also revealed a part of the past which had not been well known. But it was the fair that was so exciting! I learned so much, it described the engineering marvels that resulted from the fair. I couldn't put it down.

Oh, good! I'm so glad to hear that about The Devil in the White City. I've only read 2 chapters and it's really good so far.

JUst bought yesterday and begun. so far an easy read in like any gossip sheet "interesting". . .claire

Hi Group:

I am looking for some good books on World War II. I have read all of Ambroses' books and have read Flyboys and Flags of Our Fathers. All were absolutely excellent. Can Anyone recomment any others. Also, I am looking for a good book about life in the 1960's especially the culture. Any ideas? Thanks

Have you read Studs Terkel's book, "The Good War?"

Robby

Gary - try _The Thousand Mile War_ by Garfield. It is about the battle areas out on the Aleutian Chain.

Kathy

David Farber's "The Sixties," but in order to understand the 60's you have to know about the 50's, so i recommend David Halberstam's "The Fifties" be read first......enjoy......jean

Gary I suggest you now read the books of actual participants it the war. Historians would consider these accounts the primary information sources for history researchers; they are the post-war accounts of the Generals and other leaders from both sides. In particular I recommend the Albert Sphere writings “Inside the Third Reich” and “Spandau.” In particular “Inside the Third Reich” gives an insiders account of the diabolical Nazi mindset. There are many other primary source writings by WW II leaders including Eisenhower and Churchill as well as many military and civilian leaders.

Two years ago I led a discussion of the "Last Escape" by John Nichol and Tony Rennell commemorating the dedication of the WW II War Memoral on the Mall at Washington D.S. Click Here for the discussion archive

the news always started with a body count both sides when they could get it. I was thirteen when it started. we had a beach house on pacific coast highway. almost impossible to get to and from because of the troop movements. PCH a major highway then, no freeways as I remember, we'd stand outside beside the road and wave at the soldiers as they went bye.

I wouldn't want to read about it or any other war in detail. war involves more than stradegyit's young men and their bodies. . so sad and disgusting. . . war is immoral.

Winsum: You evidently had a hard time with the war. I taught history which is one reason for my interest. In addition, I want to read about real life heros like my Dad and father-in-law. All it takes is a trip to the World War II museum in New Orleans or talk to those guys who served to make what we have today. I did the Veterans Day Observance for years at school before I retired and I have to tell you I still get a tear in my eyes and feel awfully proud of these guys. If that is flag waving, then I'm proud of it.

I think WWII is probably the last war we could feel good about, in the sense that it was fought for reasons we believed to be right and necessary. That was a comfort and moral support that that hasn't been there since, when so many wars seem to have been fought for political and economic reasons.

Our soldiers in later wars were, and are, no less brave and fine, and the loss of each one of them a tragedy. But we do not have the assurance in our hearts that it was necessary. And that is painful to bear.

Babi

A book club I belong to is reading NIGHT by Elie Wiesel; for years I have heard about Wiesel but this is the first I've read of his experiences as a boy in Hitler's concentration camps and it is very moving, terrifying.

Recently I read THE BEST YEAR OF THEIR LIVES, 1948, Kennedy, Nixon and Johnson - an excellent book by Lance Morrow who was an essayist for years for TIME magazine.

FRONT ROW AT THE WHITE HOUSE by Helen Thomas looks interesting and is on my reading list. Also CHARACTER ABOVE ALL, essays written by various people on our last 10 presidents.

And, I just picked up at the library today Erik Larson's second book THUNDERSTRUCK. For those of you who enjoyed his first one - DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY (which we discussed) this one promises to be every bit as good.

Any of those sound interesting to discuss?

Click here for the DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY discussion located in our Archives: Devil in the White City

We went to a lecture at a small university near here given by Martin Goldsmith, author of THE INEXTINGUISHABLE SYMPHONY: A True Story of Music and Love in Nazi Germany. They started a program there 12 years ago naming an author of the year, calling his book - THE COMMON BOOK - and they honor him by placing his photo in the Library and each incoming freshman gets a copy and must write an essay on the book. And, of course, the author is pleased to spend 4 days there lecturing the students and, probably, eating lots of chicken suppers.

So if you had to choose a COMMON BOOK for all of us to read what would it be? The faculty charged with this responsibility reads 60 books in order to choose the one.

Welcome to Seniornet! The author mentioned above, Martin Goldsmith, a musician, author, actor, broadcaster for NPR, has also written a book about the Beatles which is about the social aspect of the '60's; however, there are many more books about that fabulous four who arrived on our shores via Ed Sullivan.

If you go to any libray and type the subject of WWII or the 1960's into their computers you will find a wealth of material - so much that it would take you a lifetime to read it all.

There is an interesting sounding program on the History Channel tonight at 8:00 p.m. EST. It's the narrative of a true story of a ship's crew that was shipwrecked in 1815 off the coast of Africa. They were captured and enslaved by Arabs and eventually freed.

"Skeletons on the Sahara"

Here's info about the show: "In 1815, a Connecticut merchant ship is run aground off the west coast of Africa. Captured by Arab nomads, Captain James Riley and his crew are sold into brutal slavery and marched across the Sahara Desert, where skin boils, lips blacken and men shrivel to less than 90 pounds. Along the way the Americans will encounter everything that could possibly test them, but Riley and his men will also discover ancient cities, secret oases and a culture largely unknown to the modern world. We'll take viewers inside the adventure, with realistic recreations shot on location and compelling interviews with descendants of Riley, his crew and the Arabs who held them captive. Includes expert commentary from Dean King, author of the bestselling book of the same name."

I believe it repeats at 12:00 a.m. tomorrow. It lasts 2 hours.

Marni

Marni, thank you. It is now six o'clock in the morning. I must have missed it both times.

we are the beastliest of beasts. no other animal kills for fun or to exploit the creation of new equipment and it's own creativity.they kill for food and territory and defence of their young. The even eat each other which we have been known to do as well it's horrible.

I just took a valium and it's helping but this is a terrible painfull feeling. I don't want to enhance it with warstories. just another aspect of our joy in using violece to solve our problems. we LOVE IT.

we approach it with al the creative and physical energy we can muster. shame on us.

Thank you Marnie for your notice of the "Skeletons on the Sahara" program on the History Channel last evening. Had I have read it in time I would have been torn between it and the Texas -Texas Tech football game, a dilemma I would have solved by tuning the muted game on the TV while watching the history program with its sound on my media notebook computer.

Winsum, True, mankind is much too pre-occupied with violence and war but we must not forget that it does have its better side. I think more can be accomplished through our focus on our better side, though granted this too will not eliminate war and violence from our experience.

I've found another book for my Shakespeare study: Ron Rosenbaum's The Shakespeare Wars. Rosenbaum was bitten by the Shakespeare bug and it changed his life, he says. "What may be the greatest achievement of the human imagination." It's been 1 year since I retired and I feel settled now, so Im ready to undertake my study. I'll read each play and read the commentaries along with it. Bloom and Azimov each wrote play-by-plays and I have decided to add Rosenbaum. Will in the World, by Stephen Greenblatt, is another source in my library.

Tonight on Public TV is a program about the history of Yellow Fever. My newspaper said it was on at 9:00 p.m. EST and I put a reminder out for myself. But I just noticed that the time has changed to 10:00 p.m. EST on my online TV Guide. It says that a history of influenza is on at 9:00. So, the yellow fever history is on at either 9:00 or 10:00 p.m. EST.

I was glad to see about tonight's program because the discussion about The Mutiny on Board HMS Bounty by William Bligh begins on Wednesday. Yay!!

Yellow Fever was one of the diseases that killed large numbers of the British Navy as they ventured out more around the world. Malaria was another of the endemic diseases they encountered that killed so many ships' crew and soldiers and explorers.

This also reminds me of the David McCullough book The Passage Between the Seas about the building of the Panama Canal. Such an interesting book!!!

Marni

I'd like to recommend this book for discussion. It won the Pulitzer Prize, and it is a comprehensive study of Civil War era history. It is 900 pages long, and I'd like to complete it. I have a daughter who is getting her Ph.D. in U.S. Legal History immediately following the Civil War. I have promised her that I would read this book, and its 900 page length is daunting. If I could discuss it with other interested readers, that would definitely help me to sustain my motivation.

Eleanor

ELLIE, if your daughter is using this book as a source in preparing her thesis, she probably wants someone to discuss the book with, too. We've all learned here about the new insights one gets from a book, when it is discussed with others.

Babi

I'm reading Bob Woodward's STATE OF DENIAL and find it easy and fascinating. another war in a way and it's political implicaions. it is the third book of a series BUSH AT WAR, the first two having a different perspective on it than this one. I may have a look at them too. Perhaps the entire three volume series???

claire

Ahoy! The book discussion is now open for William Bligh's The Mutiny on Board HMS Bounty.

Come aboard, stow your gear, and join us in gill of grog and some tasty salt pork, hardtack, and sauerkraut as we talk about Captain's Bligh's version of the voyage and mutiny of the Bounty.

If you don't yet have your book, it is available online from a link in our Header. The book discussion begins with Post #175.

Marni

Hello,

Since I am new to this website, I had a hard time getting back to this location. I did get some feedback on Battle Cry of Freedom. Is there anyone on this website who might be interested in discussing this book? Is there any way that the suggestion might go out to more than just a few people?

Eleanor

Click Here for information on The Battle Cry of Freedom by James M. McPherson.

Though I am much into history subjects and have led Civil War title discussions before (April 1865), the Civil War is not my primary area of interest. If four or five people indicate their firm committment to the discussion of this book, I would surely try to find a DL to take on the discussion.

To make this site easily accessible, I suggest you make our Seniorsnet Books and Literature menu page (http://discussions.seniornet.org/cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.ee6eef3!FitScreen=1 ) a favorite on your computor. By clicking this favorite you will be able to scroll down the menu to choose this Non Fiction page or any other Books and Literature site currently available on the Books and Literature menu.

To make this site easily accessible, I suggest you make our Seniorsnet Books and Literature menu page (Click Here) a favorite on your computor. By clicking this favorite you will be able to scroll down the menu to choose this Non Fiction page or any other Books and Literature site currently available on the Books and Literature menu.

This book is very disturbing and sad, sad, sad......the lives it ruined and damaged is heartbreaking.......It takes place in Oklahoma and is reviting...........If this wouldn't change your mind about the death penalty nothing would........and to think this takes place all across this country......

Viet Nam Diary

President Bush is making his first visit to Viet Nam. I have never read a book about Viet Nam. I thought some people might find this book interesting.

The puppy photo on the cover kept me reading this book, by a Marine, who was in Iraq. And, if I truly "support the troops", I should read what one of them had to say. I also think, if I truly care about the people who died so horribly on 9-11, I should keep asking about what the 2 widows say in Jim Marrs' book, "Inside Job". I see no one else has commented on since I posted it on 10-16. None of the many Media and politicians I have written to, have commented either. I remember the silence of the McCarthy hearings. And that Michael Hadley, when nominated to be head of the National Security Council, I think it was, said something like, he does things that he doesn't want people to know about until it's on "The History Channel". "There are so many areas where only a very few know for sure.", wrote Babi, commenting about "Fiasco". Is that the way it should be in a government of the people? Thank you

Catlover: I'll put those books on my library list. It seems that this is a time for examining many events of the recent past in new ways and with new eyes. I have often wished to see into the future and learn how these times would be evaluated. It is said that history is written by the winners which I believe to be true but the losers can speak loudly if for nothing more than to protect their reputations.

Hats: Thanks for the heads-up. I will watch eagerly as family tradition has it that we had an ancestor on the Mayflower. I wonder how many in SeniorNet are so blessed? If you are descended from the Mayflower passengers, speak out.

Mrs. S, Wm. Bradford was one of our family ancestors. The Bradford name has appeared frequently in our family as a last or middle name up through a current 10-year-old.

There's a new non-fiction book by (I think) Nathaniel Philbrick called Mayflower. I've had it from the library, but only had time to read a couple of chapters.

I;ll add that to my library list. thanks

I remember Marni reading that book. If I remember correctly, Marni said the Philbrick book is great.

Well! OJ has made the headlines with the Sunday morning media full of new on his new book soon to be released by the publisher. After listening to the first half hour of the Sunday morning NPR news broadcast and another hour toggling between the MSNBC and Fox news channels I have concluded that OJ’s new book would fit better under Fiction than Non-fiction. I sort of expect that the ill-advised publisher will loose a pile of money on this deal.

While I will follow the news about it, I have no plans to buy or read the book.

I refuse to listen to OJ much less read his book.

I'm with you, Hats! I skip those pages in the paper or magazines, and mute the TV when the not-news about that is on (as well as that about whoever that was that got married over the weekend).

"Saving Graces" by Elizabeth Edwards.......I had not planned on reading this book but read a paragraph from it where she was talking about the death of her son Wade........I was hooked........and I have hardly put it down since my hold came up on it at the library......she is a very gifted writer and this is a powerful book......for me anyway........illness and sadness come to us all but seems some folks have more than their share...........

Hats: Thanks for the info about Mayflower. I was able to catch about a 1/2 hour of it tonight. Nathaniel Philbrick narrated periodically. Yes, Mary Z., Hats has such a good memory! I did read the book and it's excellent.

I think they're going to repeat it, if you missed it.....the actual title is "Desperate Crossing" in case you are looking in the "guide." Do you think they used the word "desperate" since they were opposite "Desperate Housewives?" I wouldn't be surprised.....it seems like a strange word to go w/ "crossing."............jean

I have just finished reading a most interesting book by Rodney Stark, a University Professor of the Social Sciences at Baylor University. It is, "The Victory of Reason" "How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism and Western Success"

I saw a review on it and found that to be very appealing. The New York Times Book Review calls it "Provocative...(Rodney) Stark is to be commended for celebrating the rational element of Christian religion and culture _ a part that deserves celebration and needs to be recovered."

I read it in paperback and it is very readable. One is inclined to keep reading it - very hard to put down. It is a smallish book, and very well annotated. It was published in 2005 by Random House.

An invitation to all those liking Non-fiction. Click onto THE STORY OF CIVILIZATION where we are now beginning The Renaissance.

Robby

Click Here for "The Victory of Reason: How Christianity led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success” by Rodney StarK. Thank you Merljo for this report. I remember an earlier 1950’s book on the same theme Religion and the Rise of Capitalism by Richard Henry Tawney.

Has anyone read any of the books of the sea by Captain Frederick Marryat? I read about him when I was reading a biography of Thomas Cochrane this week. Marryat was one of Cochrane's midshipmen in his early sea career. He admired Cochrane tremendously. Marryat eventually began writing books. His books were, apparently, the model for C. S. Forester and Patrick O'Brian. He based some of his stories on Cochrane's exploits.

I was wondering if his books were any good. They don't have any in the library, but I noticed there are a bunch of them online in Project Gutenberg. Does anyone have a recommendation?

I recall having read something of his about Midshipman Easy, but it was such a long time ago, when I was a child of adolescent, I could not venture an opinion of it, only remember that it was a picaresque tale, enjoyable at the time.

Harold Arnold:

Thank you for linking to "The Victory of Reason". I read the reviews and can agree with the reviewers' enthusiasm. It is a fascinating book.

I came across an absolute little gem of a book at the library this morning. It is "The Age of Shakespeare", written by Francois Laroque, a teacher of English literature at the Sorbonne. He is described as a Shakespeare specialist and a member of the center for Elizabethan research at Paul Valery University in Montpelier, France.

The book is lavishly illustrated. In addition to the information you might expect to find in any book about Shakespeare, this one includes info. on 'Rites of Passage', 'Tournaments, Dances, and Entertainment' and documents from the period, including excerpts from letters or journals of people who had seen one of the plays, and critiques by such well-known figures as John Dryden and Samuel Johnson. And the entire book is only 183 pages, not counting index and appendices. My mouth is watering!

Babi

This is an exciting addition to my Shakespeare research materials. Thanks!

I was wondering if you had this one, MRS. SHERLOCK. I was sure that if you didn't, you'd find it valuable. When are we going to do a Shakespeare exploration?

Babi

I'd go along with a Shakespeare Exploration - sounds like just what we need.

Babi - Your Shakespeare find seems like a gem - Thanks for the tip - I'll try to locate it here.

For more information on Captain Frederick Marryat and his litterary career Click Here.

Click Here for Marryat titles currently availabl from B&N.

Also Click Here for more on “The Age of Shakespeare" by Francois Laroque mentioned in Message # 102 by BaBi.

Thanks, Harold.

Speaking of Shakespeare...we drove to Stockbridge, Mass. yesterday and roamed around looking at shops. We saw some silly things in one shop - a William Shakespeare action figure and an Edgar Allan Poe action figure. We were laughing. What's next?!

Has anyone read the book "THE BEST YEAR OF THEIR LIVES: KENNEDY, JOHNSON AND NIXON in 1948? A discussion of it is proposed for February lst, click here: The Best Year of Their Lives"

Morrow is a beloved author and TIME essayist, and his book is a unique look at the lives of these presidents, their childhoods, their ambitions, their psyche, their faults and their power for good.

A sampling of his insight:

"The war (WWII) sharpened another principle that made its way into the politics of Nixon, Kennedy, and Johnson: You must do it to them before they do it to you. It is the logic of preemptive savagery. If no rules restrain the other side.....then one must as quickly as possible anticipate the worst-and then do the worst, first, yourself."

Sound familiar today?

The book mentioned above can be found in any library as it was published in 2005 or can be purchased here: The Best Year of Their Lives

I just finished a marvelous book on Africa - Dark Star Safari by Paul Theroux. The author took trains/buses, etc. on a journey from Cairo to Cape Town.

Kathy

Yes, I had also read and enjoyed it, though it was Theroux in fine form. I love his travel books, find his fiction to be consistently frustrating... Just doesn't seem to engage my attention or create a world I believe in.

I have not read any of his fiction. I find he is a good travel writer. I was totally captivated by his journey. Loved how he threw in all of those book titles. Would take me years to read all that he mentioned. I like Pico Iyer, too.

Kathy

Thank you Ella for your discovering "The Best Years Of Their Lives: Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon” and your plans for a discussion of this book in February 2007. This is an interesting recent political history of events many of us remember that brought three future U.S. Presidents to their initial national prominence. I urge all of you who are active here to note this book and consider participating in the discussion

Click Here for brief publisher’s information and short reviews. This title is available at most libraries and a paperback is available. Above I linked the hard copy in the B&N catalog because it contains more information than the link to the paperback.

I've just started Mockingbird, the biography of Harper Lee (author of To Kill a Mockingbird). So far, I'm enjoying learning about her childhood. I knew of, but am learning more about, her childhood and lifetime friendship with Truman Capote.

Mary, I think I have read that book, I would have to look at it again to be sure (time robs one of memory), but recently I saw the movie CAPOTE and Harper Lee was with him when he went to Kansas to investigate and write his book IN COLD BLOOD. I wonder how long she stayed with him there.

From what I read in the introduction, she probably was there most of the time. This author says that she did the work of his research assistant, but he gave her no credit for all the work she did.

He was a strange duck and that was a shameful thing not to give credit where credit was due.

if you want to read a true story of middle america in the 1950s read THE THUNDERBOLT KID by bill bryson

OK HOMESTEAD. That's going on my list of books to get at the Library, I love history. Thanks!

--- to all of our non-fiction readers who appar here. I am now in Dallas for the hollidays picking out this message on a strange Mac computer. I'll be back in South Texas next Wensday.

Oh, yay! I got some good books for Christmas. One is the book Six Frigates (I don't remember the author) and another is a biography of Nancy Randolph, Gouverneur Morris' wife. She was one of the women in Founding Mothers. That should be good!

Marni, I have seen book reviews about Six Frigates. I would love to read that book. What a great Christmas gift!

I've just finished reading Mockingbird, a biography of Harper Lee (To Kill a Mockingbird). It was not a particularly easy read, but it was interesting to read about her life. She certainly had an interesting relationship (both personal and professional) with her life-long friend, Truman Capote.

Click Here for more information on the "Six Frigates" title from Amazon. com. Curiously there was no hit on the title at B&N

The book's Author is Ian W. Toll. It concerns the founding of the U.S. Navy..

Though my B&N catalog search failed to find it in the B&N catalog a google search on "Six Frigates" located it in the B&N catalog. Click Here. It is a new book just released in hard cover in Oct, 2006.

This B&N link has copnsiderable information on the title from the usual publisher and trade publications.

Harold, thank you for the clickable.

Hi HATS! And all of you - I see MARNIE has been here. If any of you happen upon a nonfiction book that you think would make a good discussion please post it here. Are we losing our nonfiction readers or those who would love to discuss a good book? I know I've been absent from Seniornet for a couple of years due to personal problems, but am eager to begin anew.

I think someone mentioned THE MAYFLOWER by Nathiel Philbrick or did I get that title from somewhere else? Has anyone read it? It sounds interesting and, although we have discussed the founding fathers, and most of us have no desire to delve back into those great men having spent months learning about them, we haven't discussed anything about the early settlers to my recollection.

Let me know. Thanks!

If you like Paul Theroux and Pico Iyer (me too) you will also like Jeffrey Tayler. Tayler speaks several languages and has done several books on traveling in Russia, Siberia, and the old Soviet Union countries. He's done some Africa, also. Norman Lewis and Isabella Bird are both dead, but thank the gods their travel books will live on. They are wonderful travel writers. You'd especially like Bird's "A Lady in the Rocky Mountains," I'll bet. Have you read any Dervla Murphy? She travels Europe, Africa, and South America on a bicycle, mule, and on foot. Quite a woman. She has a daughter who sometimes travels with her, enduring the very same hardships as her mother.

It's good to see you back again. I am looking forward to sharing a book discussion with you.

I read a most interesting book by Mark Kurlansky, "The Big Oyster". It is a kind of history of New York City and a surprising bit of information was how sweet-smelling the New York Harbor was at the beginning of our country. It seems that the oysters found there processed the water so beautifully that it caused a marvelous fragrance to rise above the water.

In recent years restoration efforts in the harbor has effected a return of the oysters to New York Harbor and restrictions have been placed to encourage the improvement. However the PCP that was dumped into the harbor some decades ago may never be cleaned out as it has settled to the bottom. Still, the story of Oysters in New York is fascinating. Diamond Jim Brady ate a lot but not as much as Lillian Russell. That was noticed. However she started bicycling as she became heavier and bicycling soon became a fad. There is so much more in the book. I found it most interesting, well-written and annotated. Also, Kurlansky offers several oyster recipes as he is wont to do in his writings about food.

Hi, MeRIJO. I saw a review of "The Big Oyster" some months ago and mentioned it here, hoping someone would read it and give us an idea of whether it was as good as it sounds. My library doesn't have it, so I wanted a recommendation before I went to any trouble to track it down. (It's not as tho' I don't have enough books on my list!) Thanks for the review.

Babi

Babi:

I think I am a Mark Kurlansky fan. He writes so well and presents history from such an interesting perspective - food, necessary for humanity throughout the course of history.

That is a novel, and interesting, approach, MerriJo. "The Big Oyster" is the first time I had heard of Mark Kurlansky. Can you tell me some other books he has written, using this approach?

Babi

For information from the publisher and trade publications on “The Big Oyster” by Mark Kurlansky Click Here. I agree this will make a good discussion title. I will see that it is offered in the late spring or early summer after the completion of Ella’s “Best Years of Their Lives.”

I do not understand the lack of interest in Ella's offering of "The Best Years of their Lives" This is an Interesting story of the 1948 election that brought JFK, LBJ and RN to the senate and national prominence. Ah yes, I remember it well since I had just turned 21 and it was my first vote in a national election. Alas I did not vote for LBJ, in the Demo primary but voted for him in the national election in Nov and may times thereafter.

Come on you guys Join Ella in discussing this book, Click Here

Mark Kurlansky has written "Cod" (there was a time, it has been said, that you could walk across the Grand Banks by stepping on cod, they were so numerous), and "Salt" (which was a medium of exchange in early world history). Both of these books are page turners. Kurlansky could probably make the telephone book interesting.

howzat:

Right you are! I have read both "Cod" and "Salt". He also wrote "The Basque History of the World", a book I was given by someone who knew I like Kurlansky's writings. It is different, but interesting, and he does refer to Basque cooking.

Thanks for the heads up on Kurlansky's book about the Basque. I didn't know about that one.

Oh, goody! My library has both "Salt" and "The Big Oyster". I'll be able to read them both.

Babi

Happy New Year, everyone!

Harold: My husband bought me Six Frigates at B&N. We had to return it because I got 2 copies for Christmas. I guess my relatives know my reading preferences! I just started it last night and it's very interesting.

Ella: I have read about 3/4 of Mayflower. I was really enjoying it and am not sure why I didn't finish it. Something else came along and dragged me away. I would definitely join in a discussion of it.

Another ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS book about early settlers in America is The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. I probably mentioned it last year because I loved it so much. It was a big hit around here - all of my relatives read it and some friends. It's about the first Dutch who settled New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. SO interesting and info nobody ever hears about. I think it would make a wonderful discussion. I'd be happy to lead a discussion of it or co-lead a discussion.

Hi Marnie! Oh, I like your reading preferences; they all sound good. Yes, I would like to discuss a book about the early settlers and the ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS one you suggest would be just wonderful. Shall we do it together in early spring? Before or after Harold's oyster one? Right now, I'm involved with political history and Lance Morrow - join us!

Oh, Ella, I would be so excited to co-lead that discussion with you! I would just love it!!!! I don't think I'm aware of Harold's oyster discussion. Which and when is that? Early or later spring is fine with me! The book is available in paperback.

We'll do it, Marnie!

Harold will let us know soon the date of his oyster book discussion and then we'll schedule our early settler book.

THANK YOU, GUYS/GALS, FOR YOUR SUGGESTIONS! KEEP THEM COMING AND WE'LL HAVE SOME GOOD BOOK DISCUSSIONS LINED UP!

The Big Oyster discussion will be scheduled for March or April. I will put it on the drawing board for one of these months within the next few days. Do any of you have a preference?

Marni. exactly what book would you like to co-lead? If you want to be in on the Big Oyster project, you would be welcome.

Harold: I was thinking of the early settlers project - The Island at the Center of the World (Dutch) - or the Mayflower (Pilgrims) if Ella prefers.

The Big Oyster Project sounds intriguing!! What is it? I'd be glad to help out.

Marni

I just posted a query in the "Great Books" section about "Confederacy of Dunces". Next time anyone here is over there, I'd appreciate any input you have.

Babi

BABI, I just read the reviews in Barnes & Noble; it's called a comedy, a masterpiece. Do you know anything about the author? His mother submitted the book for publication some years after his death. Have you read all of it? Would you suggest it for a book discussion?

A Confederacy of Dunces

I recall getting it years ago, tried to read it, gave up after a bit, found it boring.

ELLA, all I know about the author is what I read in the intro.; that he committed suicide and a friend later arranged to get it published. If he considered himself a genius oppressed by dunces, I would suspect his humor was not of the lighthearted variety. I just don't know. ANDARA found it boring.

It's a good-sized book, and I don't want to bother with it unless I'm fairly sure it will be worth it. BLUEBIRD posted "tom sawyer twain" after my post, but I'm not sure if that was in response to my question. Interesting, tho.

Babi

Click Here for for publishers Information and book trade reviews of Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole.

It does seem a strange and apparently controversal fiction book. It must have some merit since it won a Pultzer prize for fiction. While it is no mortal sin to mention a fiction title on this non-fiction board, its fictional character does releive me from further comment.

classification system? I was in the college library yesterday and "Roots" was in the non-fiction "slavery/civil war" section w/ a classification number.....i just wandered if it was a mistake, or if the LOC system doesn't make the differentiation that the Dewey Decimal Sys does between fiction and non-fiction. I've grown up on and used the DDS for so long the LOC sys seems very complicated and confusing.......I put a hold on The Best Yrs of Their Lives.......that sounds like a fun read.....jean

Hi Mabel! We have a former Librarian among us and I'll ask her to explain the system.

I originally asked my question elsewhere, HAROLD, but referred to it here in case any of your widely read contributors knew of the book.

Babi

Mabel... The LC classification system is a different method of organizing materials. There are many more areas than in the 000-999 Dewey System. [So the numbers don't have to be a mile long as some are in Dewey.] Here's a rundown:

A -- GENERAL WORKS
B -- PHILOSOPHY. PSYCHOLOGY. RELIGION
C -- AUXILIARY SCIENCES OF HISTORY
D -- HISTORY (GENERAL) AND HISTORY OF EUROPE
E -F-- HISTORY: AMERICA
G -- GEOGRAPHY. ANTHROPOLOGY. RECREATION
H -- SOCIAL SCIENCES
J -- POLITICAL SCIENCE
K -- LAW
L -- EDUCATION
M -- MUSIC AND BOOKS ON MUSIC
N -- FINE ARTS
P -- LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE
- P201-299 - Comparative grammar
- P321-324.5 -Etymology
And then there are the other divisions under the P division..again some examples:
- PE - English language
- PK - Indo-Iranian languages and literature
- PN - Literature (General)
- PS - American literature
- PZ - Fiction & juvenile belles lettres
Q -- SCIENCE
R -- MEDICINE
S -- AGRICULTURE
T -- TECHNOLOGY
U -- MILITARY SCIENCE
V -- NAVAL SCIENCE - WP version
Z -- BIBLIOGRAPHY. LIBRARY SCIENCE. INFORMATION RESOURCES (GENERAL)

Each of the above has the subclasses, etc. as shown for P above. You can see them all and click on each at the source for the above here: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/lcco/lcco_p.pdf

The question is always, regardless of the system used, how do you know if a fiction book is in Literature or in Fiction (if there is such a grouping in the given collection) or in Mystery or ??? You don't. Classification, following guidelines, is decided by the cataloguer and the reason, of course, for the card catalog, whether it's the computerized version or the old card one. That tells you where the book you're searching for has been placed. Some libraries using Dewey don't have a separate "fiction" or "mystery" section. They put everything in the 800 area. It's just whatever the practice is that's in place at any given library.

I hope that helps and isn't more confusing.

jane

Our library has separate Mystery, SciFi, Western,Large Print, Juvenile and Young Adult sections. Plus separate paperback Mystery, Western and Classics sections. It does have the advantage of allowing fans of various genres to find their niche quickly.

Babi

Our library uses Dewey, and has a separate fiction section, organized by author's name. Mysteries, westerns, etc., are filed within that, but with the label designation of "M" or "W" as well as the "F" for fiction.

Yes, the system/practice both BaBi and Mary describe is very common in a public library. Where the library puts biographies can also be a local practice..some use 92, some use 920 or 921 (depending on whether it's a single biography or a book of multiple biographies) or B. Lots of ways to organize a materials collection. Some put paperbacks separate, others put them together on the shelf with the hardcover, for example, alphabetically by author in Fiction (or Mystery or SciFi or Westerns...if those separate categories are used).

jane

Wow, I can see why there is a program called Library Science!

It's a wonderful field --- lots of "sleuthing" to find what a patron wants/needs and everyday is a new set of mysteries to solve. I love it!

jane

The topic of my Doctoral Dissertation was ""A Study of the Effect of the Interests of Older Students on their Ability to Understand."
To quote from my dissertation -- "To ask an individual 'What interests you' is a subjective manner of measuring the construct of interest. To ask 'What would you like to do' places it in the future, creating even more subjectivity. The subject may believe that he is telling the truth whereas his subconscious interests are considerably different from his conscious beliefs.
I had originally defined "interest" as "a constantly sustained organized set of experiences acutely sensitive to difference." The prime factor to be measured, then, was "organized experience."
Without going into boring details, the problem was to divide ALL the interests in the world into a number of categories. I labored a long time in determining how to do that and ended up by using the Dewey-Decimal system. Theoretically, one can go into a large library, and using this system, can locate any interest that exists. It worked quite well.

Robby

The LC system does the same thing, Robbie, just in different designations and categories. LC, as I said earlier, allows for shorter "call numbers" since there are more subdivisions and an alpha numeric system.

Good organization of a materials collection can be achieved with either system.

jane

that answers my question as to why "Roots" was in what i considered to be the non-fiction section, it was obviously considered "literature" rather than just "fiction." .....but it WAS in the HISTORY (slavery/civil was) section, not the literature section........since i grew up w/ Dewey, LOC seems more complicated and takes some getting used to........aaaahhhhh Dewey, like a first love.......LOL......jean

Yes, Jean, I also grew up with Dewey and had no contact at all with LC, beyond it being discussed, of course, in Cataloguing Class, but my first job was as a Reference Librarian at the Univ. of Iowa..and they use LC, so I learned it quickly. The key is using the card/computer catalog to find the number assigned to the book you want and then wandering the stacks to find where those are.

jane

I have never gotten into any of John Gresham's books, but my daughter suggested I read this one as it took place near our hometown in Oklahoma.

I remember reading about these men while it was happening. Gresham told it like it happened and all the horror these men went thru in their hometown as well as the state prison system. I imagine the same thing may happen in small towns in other states, but in Ada, if you are poor and your family isn't one of "the" families, you don't have much of a chance against the "good old boy" system.

Mary

You enjoyed the book, Rebud? I've read a couple of Grisham's court thrillers and then got a bit tired of him; I have not tried his first nonfiction as it didn't get a very good review, but I may pick it up later. Right now it is on the reserve list.

My library has a copy of THE BIG OYSTER and I skimmed it - looks fascinating, can't wait till Harold proposes it and sets a date.

On C-Span last weekend a speaker (I forget his name) mentioned that Laura Bush (a former Librarian and voracious reader, as you probably know) recently recommended that the President read "A godly hero : the life of William Jennings Bryan" by Michael Kazan. Both occupants of the White House read books, but Laura is often the persuader.

Has anyone read it? It's a new book and I have it reserved - I know a few facts about the man, noted speaker, Darrow's opponent (and loser) in the Monkey Scopes trial; but there must have been much more to the fellow.

Ella, I can't truthfully say I "enjoyed" the book. but he is a good author and it was well written. It was very graphic in spots, but the story was true and he told it like it happened. I never read a review of the book, but it could gotten a bad review because the reviewers couldn't believe these men could have been "railroaded" like they were.

It is very sad that people can be convicted of crimes they didn't commit because they were in the "wrong place at the wrong time, or in this case, by an overzealous prosecuter and police force. The advent of DNA testing has freed many people many people who were wrongfully convicted. Being exonerated of a crime is great, but it won't ever replace the "lost years" of their lives.

Mary

Click Here for book trade information on “The Innocent Man”by John Gresham

and Here for information on “A godly hero : the life of William Jennings Bryan" by Michael Kazan

Recent news Item support the innocence of the Duke University Lacross team charged with rape following a team party. Apparently a DA filed the charges to improve his re-election chances. Even though the Rape charges have now been dropped, after weeks of high profile publicity, the victims remain guilty in the minds of many.

I believe I found out about this book here. I checked it for John to read, and he is thoroughly enjoying it. He says it's not the easiest reading, but that he is learning a lot. Just thought I'd pass the review along.

Mary Z: I'm almost finished with Six Frigates. I just love it. There are so many little tidbits of information about the early days of the American navy - stuff about the Barbery Wars and War of 1812 - that I never knew - even info about my home town of New London and roles it played. The author did so much research and writes so well.

Marnie, I'm going to have to purchase the MAYFLOWER and probably THE ISLAND AT THE CENTER OF THE EARTH, as you said the latter was the better of the two. I got it on tape, but it is 13 discs - I'll never get around to listening to that many, so I assume I will be buying it also. The MAYFLOWER looks very good.

And another purchase will be necessary - A GODLY HERO by Michael Kazin, which looks wonderful.

Meanwhile, I have plenty to read on these grey, gloomy days. My sister recommended NUREMBERG: Infamy on Trial by Joseph E. Persico. Goodness, that's a big one also!

What are all of you reading?

I spotted a book in the library this morning that made me smile, tho' I don't plan to read it. It's titled, "Incomplete Education", with subtitle of "3,684 Things You Should Have Learned, but Probably Didn't". Any brave soul want to take up that challenge?

Babi

Ella: I'm surprised that "Island" has so many discs. It's just an ordinary-sized paperback - not particularly large. It really is a fascinating book, though. If you do buy it, I know you'll enjoy it. Just let me know which book you would prefer to discuss. Either is fine with me.

I just finished a fascinating book - Unwise Passions by Alan Pell Crawford. It's the story of Ann (Nancy) Randolph Morris, the woman who eventually married Gouverneur Morris. It's the story of the great scandal ("the first great scandal of eighteenth-century America") she was involved in and which followed her til she died. She was a member of the important Randolph family of Virginia - lots of important politicians and wealthy decadent plantation owners involved. Nancy's brother married Thomas Jefferson's daughter, Patsy. Nancy's sister's brother-in-law was John Randolph, Congressman, who dueled with Henry Clay. The story shows all the intermarriage that occurred in the family between first cousins. (I was shocked!) It was like reading a spicy novel! What an amazing story. Some of you read a bit about Nancy Randolph in Founding Mothers by Cokie Roberts.

marni:

It seems to have been acceptable to marry first cousins back then. Don't know why, but have read of such marriages being frequent in the past. I think I'll check Google.

The U. S. seems to be the only country having restrictions on first cousin marriages. Here is a link about that.

http://www.cousincouples.com/info/facts.shtml

The book sounds fascinating, Marnie! I think Morris (is he the Morris who signed the Constitution?) is related to me; I have a typed history of the family which is very complicated to decipher; such history is recorded at a county Court House in W. VA. It was a project of a lawyer cousin when he retired. Now, of course, after all these years I don't even remember the county. We used to believe that marriage to cousins produced insanity in children as I remember.

Franklin and Eleanor were second cousins were they not?

Ella:

I think Franklin and Eleanor were fifth cousins - they were pretty distant, but in their families they kept track of relationships, it seems.

Too much intermarriage affected certain physical features more than others. In the Hapsburg family, it was the famous Hapsburg jaw and eventually, it rendered the males sterile and the family line became extinguished.

In the 18th century marriages between 1st cousins was very common. Marriage between even more distant cousins in many Royal families is suspected as a cause of some of the physical and mental problems in these familes. It may have been a factor in the Madness of King George III. Today in most U.S. States marriage between 1st cousins are illegal but I understand that most allow more distant cousins to marry. I don't think there are many close-kin marriages in the US today

Regarding reading my winter reading has been the three Maine camping essays written by Henry David Thoreau between 1846 and 1857. All of these of course were in the summer or fall. Barbara once lead a delightful discussion of his "Walden" masterpiece.

It's fascinating to read about GHW Bush and the Desert STorm operation and how he responded to the break-up of the Soviet Union and the break up of Yugoslavia and compare his behavior to the response of GWB to 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. It's also fascinating to read about the personalities of many of the men who were in both administrations, especially Powell, Cheyney and Rumsfield. ....... very interesting, i recommend it to anyone who is interested in the topics.....David H is a wonderful writer......jean

Ella: Yes, Gouverneur Morris signed the Constitution, representing PA. He was the "founding father" who created the Preamble of the Constitution and who wrote the rest of the Constitution based on the ideas generated by the Constitutional Convention members. He owned the Bronx, NY estate called Morrissania.

According to the social anthropologists whose works I had read, cousin marriages are the norm, rather than the exception, in many Muslim agrarian communities in Egypt and in Pakistan. This is done to consolidate, rather than to fragment through dowry payments, the family wealth and especially land holdings, the economics driving the custom.

It has been pointed out by the geneticist that this is not the most desirable practice, in terms of ensuring healthy offspring, but economic interests entrenched by custom persist in making this the common pattern.

I'm reading a really interesting book that I received for Christmas: England's Mistress: The Infamous Life of Emma Hamilton by Kate Williams. It's so good! I had read just a little about her when I read some bios about Admiral Nelson. Her own life is wonderfully fascinating to read about. The author is a historian and includes much about 18th century England, France, and Naples where Emma Hamilton lived. Emma grew up in poverty in the Manchester, England area before she moved to London. She was a maid, a street whore, an theater dresser's assistant, an artist's model, a courtesan, a mistress, an actress, an aristocratic ambassador's wife, a queen's confidante, and Lord Nelson's mistress. At times she was the most famous woman in Europe. It is fascinating to read about how she survived.

South Texas including San Antonio is shut down by an unusual winter ice storm. Hopefully the thaw will begin (according to the forecast) this afternoon. The weather outlook is continued cold- wet conditions but above freezing.

We have not had a spell like this one for the past 5 or so years. I am scheduled to work this afternoon at the National Historical Park (Mission Espada), but I suspect the park will close as it did yesterday since it is unlikely to have many visitors.

Years ago there was a good movie about "Lady Hamilton" wih Vivien Leigh, as Emma, and Laurence Olivier as Lord Nelson. I recall liking it very much - story, costumes, sets - the whole thing.

We have been having a severe freeze here in the Central Valley of California, too. It has been devastating to the citrus growers.

There was a program on a muslim community where there was extreme interbreeding. Most of the inhabitants of the small village were victims of physical defects such as blindness, bone malformations, mental deficiencies, etc. It was mandated that one marry within one's family. Did anyone else see/hear this program? I can't remember where or when but it was within the last month or so, probably NPR.

Here in the northeast we've been watching news of the cold and snow & ice in California and Texas. So bizarre! We haven't had any snow yet to speak of. It finally went below 20 degrees today and is expected to be cold for awhile.

Stay warm, Harold & Merijo!

That is one of my top ten all time movie favorites!

I temember the full title as "That Hamiltion Woman" It dates back to the 1930's a few years before my movie time, but I first saw it as a re-run in 1946 in Austin, TX. I remember it because there was a great scene picturing the Battle of Trafalger with Lord Nelson ordering his famous flag message as "England confides that every man will do his duty" leading to his signal oficer suggesting a change to "England expects every man will do his duty.". The story is told by Lady Hamilton in her old age and in the last scene when she is old and alone in France she is asked, "and what Happend then (after Nelson's death)?" She answers, "there was no then, there was no after."

This was a time when Hollywood still knew how to tell a story, how to put a movie together so viewers could understand it.

We are now in a warming trend with the sun out this morning in San Antonio. However, the forecast calls for more cold and wet for the weekend. possibly not as cold as the last few days.

Get ready Marni - it just started to snow in New Jersey ....... we aren't expecting much, so i'm really enjoying watching it......jean

Harold:

I had forgotten the fact that Lady Hamilton told the story in her old age - did remember some of the Battle of Trafalgar, but mostly remembered that the movie lingered in my mind as a beautiful film.

I agree - movies are so different these days - so cryptic and replete with knowing looks by the actors instead of dialogue. I feel tired afterward instead of entertained by today's movies.

We've had a long stretch of freezing weather during the night hours. Have to cover so many plants, and we have a bucket over the faucet out in the yard. It would have burst otherwise. This freeze should be on the wane by tonight.

Well, the movie about Lady Hamilton was probably romanticized at the end. I have never seen it. I just love Laurence Olivier movies. Have to get ahold of it. But I just finished the book about Emma Hamilton and she didn't have a romantic end. Wow. She was such a spendthrift. Boy, could she go through money. And Nelson didn't take care of her well enough in his will. His relatives got most of his estate. Apparently, he didn't expect to die when he did. She ended up in debtor's prison for some time. Friends helped her get out eventually but she had to flee to France to escape more creditors. She died at age 49 poor and sick in France.

Marnie, thanks for the recommendation of the MAYFLOWER. The more you read history the more aware you are of repeating it. This paragraph made me pause - I think of the Hispanics that are attempting to make a better life in America and we keep pushing them away. I don't know the answer to immigration. I doubt that any one does, but:

"We think of the Pilgrims as resilient adventurers upheld by unwavering religious faith, but they were also human beings in the midst of what was, and continues to be, one of the most difficult emotional challenges a person can face: immigration and exile."

Ella Gibbons:

It is that, along with cultural shock.

It sure is quiet in here. Is everyone reading? What are you reading, do give us some ideas. Somewhere I read the winners of the National Book Awards for both fiction, nonfiction and biography, but can't remember what they were now. Anyone?

Hi Ella - I just finished Marley and Me. What a wonderful book. I am reading the following nonfiction: Quinine by Rocco, a book about the discovery of quinine and its use with malaria. Another book is Beyond Belief by Naipul - he visits 5 non-Arab Islamic countries, ie. Indonesia, etc. And, I am reading From the Land of Green Ghosts by Thwe - a memoir of this man's life in Burma to his enrolling in Cambridge.

Kathy

Thanks for the reminder of Naipul's Beyond Belief. I have it somewhere in the house. Unread. I wonder if it would be helpful in understanding some of the action in SNOW, now under discussion.

is what I'm reading at present. It chronicles the stories of the people who did not leave the section of The Great Plains most affected by The Dust Bowl years. Egan folds in just enough history to help make sense of why people settled this area in the first place. The book is a page turner. And, off and on, I am working on reading "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. This book--about food, from the farm to your table--is so chock full of bad news I can hardly stand to read more than a few pages at a time.

I'll betcha "The Worst Hard Time" is out-worsted by "The Worst Journey in the World" by Apsley Cherry-Gerard. Well, it's my favorite worst...

It wasn't Naipaul's Beyond Belief that I found when I went looking, but his 'Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey. Thanks, Kathy.

Jonathan - that is his 1st book about this set of Islamic countries. Beyond Belief is a return to those same countries 14 years later. Maybe I should have read the 1st one first!

Kathy

The National Book Awards that I mentioned earlier were for 2006 and are listed here:

National Book Awards

Kathy, that's a good recommendation. I think I'll see if I can get it at the Library or if I will have to wait a few months. Usually, nonfiction is not as difficult to get.

We, in the Books, seem to be hesitant (smart, frightened) to discuss any of the books (every day a new one, hundreds of them!) on the Iraq situation.

Is anyone reading them? One of them?

Ella, there is no hesitation on my part to discuss one or many of the current non-fiction books on the Iraq situation. The times I have suggested non fiction books on current events, have been met with silence.

Here are some books I've read that would be great candidates for a discussion.

"Imperial Life in the Emerald City" by Rajiv Chandrasekaran. It's about life inside Baghdad's Green zone.

"Fiasco" by Thomas E. Ricks. Covers the years of the Iraq war.

"State of Denial" by Bob Woodward. Also about Iraq.

"One hundred and Two minutes" by Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn. About the two World Trade Center towers from the time they were hit until they fell.

There are more but any of these would make for great discussion.

Fifi

I gave my husband "State of Denial" by Bob Woodward for Christmas. He had asked for it after hearing excellent reviews of it. He read it non-stop and enjoyed it very much. I plan to read it myself so we can discuss it. It sounds like an interesting book to discuss in a book club.

Click Here for Imperial Life In the Emerald City by Rajiv Chandrasekaran

Click Herefor Fiasco by Thomas E. Ricks

Click Here for State of Denial by Bob Woodward

Click Here for 102 Minutes by Jm Dwyer and Kevin Flynn. The "102 Minutes in the title refers to the time lapse between the first plane strike and the final collapse of of the World Trade Center towers.

Thank you for the title and clickable about the book 102 Minutes by Dwyer and Flynn. Everything happens so quickly on tv, I change channels, go to another room to do a chore, etc. Although so much information is given, so much information is lost too while looking at different networks. Reading one book about the sad and heroic events of that day would, I feel, give a clearer picture. I would love to read this book. This is my first time hearing the title.

The Welcome Sign is out for the book discussion THE BEST YEAR OF THEIR LIVES: 1948, Kennedy, Nixon and Johnson. Learning the Secrets of Power.

Hey, come on over and join in: THE BEST YEAR by Lance Morrow

I'm a newcomer here, but it appears that you are interested in the current events in the Middle East. The above mentioned, written by Robert Fisk,is a heavy tome - 1200 plus pages, but I stayed up late reading it. Made me angry and sad. Also read "The One Percent Doctrine" by Ron Suskin. This war was an invasion with tragic results. The world has not been made safer by the "war on terrorism" and many innocents have died. There is much that can be said about how the USA supported both Saddam Hussein and the Shah of Iran, two of the worst tyrants who ruled in the middle east...but even the most innocent of us have remarked on how the US powers are only interested in tyrants who happen to be sitting on vast oil resources. Reminder that that the USA has not signed on to the accord banning land mines. These scattered bombs kill children.

I am brand new here, albeit I have been with Srnet since its inception. Over the past holidays, while visiting my daughter, she had a book that I picked up and could not put down. "Dereliction of Duty" Vietnam revisited, concerning Secretary McNamara and President Lyndon Johnson. A "story" of a total disregard for the opinons of the Joints Chiefs of Staff as well as generals in the field. If the Secretary or the C in C disagreed with the generals, they were replaced. The answer to the problems in Vietnam seem to be send more troops. Dejavu huh? Having spent over 30 years in the active Army, serving in Vietnam and 3 1/2 years in Washington, I could totally relate to this book. Just a thought. Hope I didn't annoy or irritate anyone with this post, not intended to be political at all. Roger

Erik Larson's Thunderstruck seems to be living up to the standard he set in his Devil in the White City. He has meticulously researched the scientific world of the late 19th and early 20th century, laying the ground work for the development of the wireless telegraph which figures so prominently in this story of the infamous Dr. Crippen's attempt to escape capture as he flees to America with his lover. This attention to detail gives the characters depth and makes them come alive. I heartily recommend this book.

Click Here for Eril Lawson's Thunder Struck. This looks like another good book by the author of The Devil In the White City. We had some discussion here on the earlier title a few years ago when it was first published. Thank you Mrs Sherlock for mentioning it.

By the way I went out to the big Barnes and Noble store the other day to buy the Best Years of Their Lives and the Big Oyster. I was biterly disapointed because they not only did not have Best Year of Their Lives, It was not even in their store computer. I did get the Big Oyster that I plan to offer for discussion in the spring.

Roger - not at all annoying or irritating....it's interesting to hear about the book and the comparisons. Stay w/ us, you may find some other books that you'd enjoy reading......let us know of other books you are reading.......jean

Harold: In order to find THE BEST YEAR, you must put in the whole title - it's a long one, but here it is at Barnes & Noble. I bought the paperback.

The Best Year of their Lives: Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon in 1948

Looking forward to the Big Oyster in the Spring.

ROGER: I echo what Jean said; we all have different tastes but if we get three or more people interested in one book we discuss it.

Roger: It certainly is like dejavu! So infuriating!

Mrs. Sherlock: I'm so glad to hear your recommendation of Thunderstruck. I nearly picked it up in B&N. Now I'm definitely going to get it for my husband (and me!)

Harold, enjoyed your photos of Mesa Verde. Have you by chance read Man Corn? The following is a review by the publisher.

"Until quite recently Southwest prehistory studies have largely missed or ignored evidence of violent competition. Christy and Jacqueline Turner's study of prehistoric violence, homicide, and cannibalism explodes the myth that the Anasazi and other Southwest Indians were simple, peaceful farmers. Using detailed osteological and forensic analyses, plus other lines of evidence, the Turners show that warfare, violence, and their concomitant horrors were as common in the ancient Southwest as anywhere else in the world. More than seventy-five archaeological sites containing several hundred individual remains are carefully examined for the cannibalism signature. Because this signature has not been reported for any sites north of Mexico, other than those in the Southwest, the authors also present detailed comparisons with Mesoamerican skeletal collections where human sacrifice and cannibalism were known to have been practiced. The authors review several hypotheses for Southwest cannibalism: starvation, social pathology, and institutionalized violence and cannibalism. In the latter case, they present evidence for a potential Mexican connection and demonstrate that most of the known cannibalized series are located temporally and spatially near Chaco great houses". The Anasazi culture is fascinating with the present Hopi thought to be descendents. I find The Chaco Canyon complex to be of extreme interest with the archaeological work of Anna Sofaer who discovered the "Sun Dagger"(The Solstice Project)and the astrological significance of this petroglyph. Her research is presented on a PBS DVD narrated by Robert Redford.

Potsherd - I'll have to look that book up. We LOVE the Four Corners area, and go there frequently. We were there last spring, including my first trip to Chaco, and a return visit to Mesa Verde. We'll be heading back that way in April.

Edit: Darn - our library doesn't have it.

MaryZ, The book is expensive (Some where around $60.00)and I would suggest you check out your local University or Community College library.

Potsherd - I did look on amazon, and the used ones start at $45 - not something I'll be buying. I'll check the university library. I haven't tried that on-line, but I'll bet it's there.

MARY Z, your library can put out an inter-library request for you. That's how I got a copy of the "Mutiny on the Bounty" journal for the discussion here at SN. A college library responded, as it happens. I am charged $1.00 for an inter-library request here. A bargain!

Babi

There are a lot of people upset about Jimmy Carter's new book about Palestineans and apartheid. I happened to see him on tv last week. He was apologizing for one of the statements in the book. I would like to read the book.

The way interlibrary loans are supposed to work is, the request from a library patron is made to their local library, and if it is not available the request goes to libraries in greater and greater circles from that local library, all the way to the Library of Congress (where at least one copy of all published books are kept,) until a copy of whatever book or material that was requested is found and mailed to the library of the original request. The library patron is then notified that their book (or whatever) is in.

Several years ago I requested a copy of a memoir by Terence Stamp (the actor) and did indeed, after a long wait, receive the copy that the Library of Congress had. It had never been opened.

I would venture to guess that interlibrary loan requests are only as effective as the person is behind the desk at the library.

Our Univ. of TN at Chattanooga library does have interlibrary loans, but only for current students at the Univ. I'm an alum, but not current. I'll keep looking around. There is a copy of that particular book at the University of TN in Knoxville, but I'm not eligible for that library either.

Your local public library should have interlibrary loans available also, MARY Z. So far, I've never found one that didn't.

Babi

I'm fortunate in that I live 30 minuets from the University of Delaware library. Residents of the state for a $25 dollar fee can obtain a library card which is valid for 12 months. Our county library system (five libraries) do inter-county book loans and our local library helped me obtain a particular book loan from a Philadelphia university. Librarians are such nice people!

BaBi - of course, you're right. I'll see if they can do that for me. Thanks.

I'm reading a really interesting biography - The Most Famous Man in America: The Biography of Henry Ward Beecher by Debby Applegate. What a fascinating person and family! He was the brother of Harriet Beecher Stowe. The book tells so much about 19th century America. I became interested in Beecher when I read about him in David McCullough's history of the building of Brooklyn Bridge.

Marni, I bet that is a good biography. Thank you for the title.

I think it is rather common practice for State Universities and I presume other State colleges to make provisions for non-student residents to use their Library. Many years ago when I was working on my Master’s Thesis at Trinity, I had a Texas University at Austin card that even gave me stack access.

Today the University of Texas at San Antonio is across the town but some 15 traffic snarled miles away. I am sure I could get some sort of permit and come to think of it I have current access to the small library at one of their campuses (the Institute of Texan Cultures) by virtue of my being a Docent there. I have used this privilege on occasion but its value is limited since while I can do research there, I cannot check out material.

Other Colleges frequently permit their alumni to use their libraries. One of my schools, St Mary’s University offers this privilege. I have on occasion used the excellent law library there. My other school, Trinity University does NOT offer this privilege, an excuse I have relied on to support my no when the annual telephone solicitor opens her pitch with “Will You double your last year’s contribution."

MaryZ, I can use our community college and UTC.

Harold: Which Trinity did you attend?

Hat, I thought I probably could because I'm a UTC alumna. I'll have to try sometime.

MaryZ, I am an alumna from UTC too. I always end up using my public library after leaving there. The public library we have is wonderful especially the service of bringing a book or books from one location to another location.

Click Here for the home page of my Trinity University at San Antonio Tx (not the Trinity College at --- is it Oxford or Cambridge? --- in England.

There's a Trinity College in Hartford, CT, too. That's why I was wondering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_College_(Connecticut)

There is also a Trinity College in Delaware.....wonder how many more and why such a popular name for colleges......jean

A new book discussion will begin March 15 for The Island at the Center of the World: The Epic Story of Dutch Manhattan, the Forgotten Colony that Shaped America by Russell Shorto.

Dutch Colonial history, lost when the English seized Manhattan from the Dutch in 1644, was not destroyed. Now emerging in Shorto's gripping narrative is a remarkable story about an unknown American patriot and the foundations of New York City and the American culture.

JoanK and I would love to have you join us. Sign up for the discussion here: patwest, "---Island at the Center of the World ~ Russell Shorto ~ Proposed ~ March 15" #, 13 Feb 2007 4:36 pm

Marni

I am reading a not very new book that is true and fascinating to me. "The Liars Club".. It won and was a runnerup in many prizes in 1995.. Written about a Texas childhood in a rough and tough family. Really really interesting.

I remember hearing about the LIARS CLUB, Stephanie, but I haven't read it. I thought that perhaps we discussed it, but after looking through our Archives it seems we did not. I'll put it on my list to read.

What other books are keeping you occupied during these cold winter months (at least in Ohio that is true).

Anyone?

Is it not the prominance of the Trinity doctrine in Christian Theology (Roman Catholic, Orthodox Catholic, Protestant and etc)that has led many churchs of all faiths to name their colleges "Trinity?"

Click Here for Island In The Center Of The World by Russell Shorto. Marni and Joan K have proposed the discussion of this book beginning March 1st.

And Click Here for The Liars Club by Mary Karr

: Click Here for Island In The Center Of The World by Russell Shorto. Marni and Joan K have proposed the discussion of this book beginning March 1st.

And Click Here for The Liars Club by Mary Karr

I am listening to C-Span this afternoon - very good authors on today with excellent questions.

Andrew Roberts: A HISTORY OF THE ENGLISH SPEAKING PEOPLES SINCE 1900.

Chalmers Johnson: Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic.

Do you listen on the weekends, as I do when I am not busy, and do you want to run to the Library? They all sound fascinating.

Finished the Liars Club and have sent for her second memoir Cherry.. Mary Karr is a good writer who lived a truly odd early life. Am not sure I could have survived that family. Going to join the Island discussion, so I am starting to read that of course.

Stephanie - I also loved, "The Liars Club", and just recently read it again for the second time. If you liked it, you will also like "The Glass Castle", by Jeannette Walls. Also a memoir about growing up in a loving but dysfunctional family.

Will try and track down TheGlass Walls. I do enjoy reading about people who grew up under totally different circumstances. Used to love Oscar Lewis, who wrote studies on different ethnic groups and how they adjust.. Great books.

Harold that's an interesting explaination of the use of "trinity." I was thinking of the "father, son and holy ghost," but still questioned why so many colleges decided to use the symbol.....jean

I assumed the original 'Trinity' in Cambridge, England took its name from the Holy Trinity. And all the other 'Trinity's were named after the famous English one. No sound basis for the second assumption, of course. As my Dad used to say, 'Jumping to conclusions is the poorest form of mental exercise.'

I think the concept of the Trinity, three aspects of the one God, came into Christian theology with the Nician creed proclaimed by the Church Council at Nicaea about 325 AD. This for me is certainly the explanation for the many church affiliated colleges with the name, Trinity.

Two books I ordered arrived yesterday. Abba Eban's "Heritage:Civilization and the Jews, and his Autobiography. They were recommended by a poster in the Durant 'Civilization' discussion.

"Heritage" is Eban popular lecture series, also produced for television. The book is well-illustrated and looks fascinating. This will not be a quick read; it deserves careful reading. While I am familiary with the early history, I have much to learn about them throughout Europe and other parts of the world. My knowledge in that area is piecework, and I want a more coherent picture. I'll read this one first, then proceed to the Autobiography.

Babi

Those sound fascinating, Babi. On a trip to B&N yesterday I bought three books - that's a big purchase for me!!! Barack Obama's autobiography which has a huge waiting list at the Library, an autobiography from a lady in Iran which looks very good and an MC Beaton mystery which was on sale.

Enough already! I also ordered the book ISLAND AT THE CENTER OF THE WORLD by Russell Shorto which we will be discussing in March.

I am always slightly bemused over an autobiography being written by someone who is still young, especially someone who, like Obama, is just now entering on what may be the most exciting years of his life. Oh, well. I guess 30 years from now he can write Part II.

Babi

Hi Babi. That may true of some people, but Obama is entering a political contest where he will be exposed to all kinds of innuendos and I think it was rather smart of him to write his autobiography; to lay it all out on the line; his parents' mixed marriage, his childhood living with differing relations and his off/on relationship with his Nigerian father. His escapades into drugs, smoking and alcohol - it's all there. Unlike Bill Clinton whenattached said he never inhaled, Obama states it plainly that he did.

I'm only halfway through his DREAMS FROM MY FATHER, but I intend to read his book AUDACITY OF HOPE. Hillary has written her autobiography also, but I haven't read that yet.

I doubt either will profit from the experience of the book or the political contest but it does make for an fascinating race for the presidency. How long will they last?

ELLA, I agree that politically, writing one's 'so-far' autobiograpy is a practical move. I had not realized that Obama had written two other books (at least) as well. Unquestionably an accomplished young man.

Did you see the news item about the Clintons demanding that Obama return the money raised for him by the same guy that raised millions for them? I'm still haven't heard how they justify that one.

Babi

Click Here for for Heritage, civilization and the Jew, This B&N page gives a short publishers information swtatement relative to this 1984 title.

I've begun reading that book, HAROLD, reading a little each day and taking time to study the illustrations as well. I intend to savor this book. Even for the early history, which I know fairly well, I'm learning new things.

Babi

BABI: I would like to read that book as well. When I lived in Israel, 40+ years ago, my friends distrusted Eban. At the time he was, if I remember rightly, the Israeli ambassador to the UN. They distrusted him because he never actually lived in Israel. Coming from his native South Africa, as soon as he moved to Israel, he began taking jobs that took him abroad. They felt that they should be represented by someone who had actually lived there, and so had more of an Israeli point of view.

I hope this view has changed over the years. He certainly represents Israel to many Americans. (Several have told me how impressed they are by his excellent English, unaware that English is his native tongue). He certainly is a brilliant and articulate representative.

JOAN, Eban's historical lecture series was apparently quite popular, so I would imagine the perception of him has changed. I would say 'brilliant and articulate' describes him quite well.

Babi

Tomorrow is March 15th - the Ides of March - Time for the Island at the Center of the World book discussion to begin! We're gathering for some hot cocoa or a hearty beer in an old New York City tavern to talk about New Netherland and its influence on America.

Marni

Since many reviews and Librarians that have acquired this story have said"This is a remarkable uplifting story that needs to be read by many"I felt that this would make a good read for a discussion. A number of pages can be read at Amazon and see if the group would consider it.

FRANCO, could you tell us more about it? Whose memoir is it?

Babi

Franco, I just Googled "I Wouldn't Die" and found it was memoir that you have written. You might want to post in Authors' Corner where you will get attention as an author.

I have been reading an interesting little book entitled “Jamestown, 1544 – 1699” by Carl Bridenbaugh. This book is a concise account or the history from the initial European (Spanish) visit in the mid 16th century, the founding of the English settlement in 1607 and the history of the colony during its first hundred years.

I though some of you might be interested in Jamestown history in view of its coming Quadricentennial anniversary this May. The official American observance will come May 12 –15 and prior to that date in the first week of May Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip will visit the site at the start of their U.S. visit.

A google search on Jamestown Archeology and Jamestown Quadricentennial will yield many web sites.

I recently read a different account -- senior moment: I can't remember the name or author. But searching on Amazon, there seem to be many books on the subject, including eye-witness accounts.

I am struck by how hard they had to to struggle to survive, compared to the Dutch colony in Manhattan. Perhaps it's just a difference in the writer's emphasis. You would think the Virginians would have an easier time getting food, but it seems to be the opposite.

I'm reading a very interesting book by Madeleine Albright "The Mighty and the Almighty." Walter Isaacson's blurb on the back says "In this fascinating book, MA weaves together history, personal experiences, and brilliant analysis in exploring how religions can be a force for liberty and tolerance rather than oppression and terror. That was the awesome insight of America's founders and it is the critical challenge facing our day and generation"........I've just started it, but she writes wonderfully, very easy reading. I am also about half way thru a bio of MA, so knowing some of her history gives me even more insight to what she is saying.........I'd say let's change the constitution about non-native borns being able to run for president, if she wanted to run!!!.......jean

JEAN, that sounds like a very interesting book, and a challenging theory. Please let me know if you continue to find it good reading, and your opinion of her unusual thinking on this question.

Babi

Albright is definitely worth reading. I've read the first half of her autobiography, then had to send it back to the library. I read up to where she becomes Sect'y of State. One of these days, I'll get it finished, and read this one,too. I think she's been on BookTV talking about it, but don't know when or if they do reruns.

You may be interested in a biography of Madeline Albright which we discussed sometime ago. A fascinating lady. I would like to read the book she wrote; I'll look for it at my library.

Seasons of her Life

Thanks Ella, i will read that discussion.......

I tried to read Sisterhood of Spies, about the women who worked in the OSS during WWII, but i was really disappointed. She talked as much about Donavan and other males in the British and American spy world as she did about the women and it was rather dryly written. I tho't i had seen her on BookTV or somewhere and the stories sounded much more exciting, but maybe that was someone else.......have any of you read a similar book? i might have gotten the wrong author......jean

JEAN, this book is not about spies but an interesting book about women - nurses - in WWII who were captured on Corregidor by the Japanese. We discussed this in 1999! Golly, how times flies; that seems a long time ago and yet it seems like yesterday

We Band of Angels

I would be interested in more books about women during wartime; did any serve during Vietnam? My daughter is in the Army Reserves as a nurse and her medical unit was called to active duty and served in the Persian Gulf War. She has so many fascinating anecdotes to tell even as she tells of the fears of the scuds overhead.

Harold, I had the pleasure of knowing John Cotter; he spoke numerous times to our state archaeological society meetings. Present Jamestown director( Kelso) worked under John at Jamestowne. When John retired from government he returned to University of Pennsylvania(emeritus). He and two coauthors researched and published a book on colonial Philadelphia, much baseed on prior archaeological excavations. regards...perry

Death of Dr. John Cotter, Noted Archaeologist Dr. John Lambert Cotter, noted American archaeologist and curator emeritus of the University Museum, died of cancer on February 5. He was 87 years old.

Although officially retired, until shortly before his death he maintained an office and regular hours at the Museum, where colleagues recall "...a wonderful archaeologist, teacher, scholar, wit--and gentleman."

Taking his B.A. and M.A. in anthropology at the University of Denver in the 1930s, Dr. Cotter went on to earn his Ph.D. in anthropology at Penn in 1959. As an archaeologist, Dr. Cotter was active in the investigation of ancient Native American settlements. He joined the National Park Service in 1940 as the archaeologist in charge of a prehistoric pueblo in central Arizona that had newly been created a national monument. He continued to serve the NPS in various capacities though 1977, when he was honored with the National Park Service Outstanding Service Award.

Dr. Cotter was also the archaelogist in charge of the excavation of the Jamestown colonial settlement during the 1950s, culminating in his publication of Archaeological Excavations at Jamestown (1958). In 1961, while he was an adjunct associate professor of American Civilization at Penn, Dr. Cotter introduced the first course in American historical archaeology at an American university. He was curator for American Historical Archaeology at the University Museum from 1971-1980.

Dr. Cotter was the author of more than 230 journal articles. His numerous books include Archaeology of Bynum Mounds (with J. Corbett, 1952), Handbook for Historical Archaeology (Compiler, 1968), and The Buried Past, an Archaeological History of Philadelphia (Penn Press, 1992, with D. Roberts and M. Parrington). His final book, Clovis Revisited, written with Anthony T. Boldurian, went to press last week.

Dr. Cotter was co-founder and life member of the Society for Historical Archaeology, a life member of the Archaeological Institute of America, and a Charter Member of the Society for American Archaeology. He served in the Army Infantry during World War II, and earned a Purple Heart after being wounded in the invasion of Normandy. His other military decorations include the European and Combat Infantryman badges.

Dr. Cotter is survived by his wife of 58 years, Virginia T. Cotter, a daughter, Jean Cotter Spaans, a son, Laurence Tomlin Cotter, and three grandchildren.

His family suggests memorial contributions to the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology.

Almanac, Vol. 45, No. 20, February 16, 1999

FRONT PAGE | CONTENTS | JOB-OPS | CRIMESTATS | BETWEEN ISSUES | FEBRUARY at PENN

Ella, in WWII the Women Airforce Service Pilot (WASP) was a very important service. Of the 25,000 women who applied only about 1,800 qualified. The WASP pilot flew every thing that had an engine, including the P-51 Mustang, which broke the 500+ MPH speed record. If I recall the WASP pilots also flew(ferried) bombers to England. Frankly,after the war they had to fight for the recognition they had well earned. They have a wonderful WEB site,not aware of any books that tell their story.

I found some books, POTSHERD, but they are only available thru' used book sites. I know nothing about them, but if you want to check these out...:

FLYING HIGHER, by Wanda Langley. HOW HIGH SHE FLIES: DOROTHY SWAIN LEWIS, by Ann L. Cooper. DEAR MOTHER AND DADDY:Letters.., by Marie Mountain Clark

Babi

BaBi_ many thanks will check out your findings.

Ella Gibbons - THANK YOU for recommending We Band of Angels by Elizabeth Norman. I liked it so much, and wish I had participated in the discussion back in '99. It was a terrific read, and really gave an honest and fascinating account of the US military nurses who seved during WWII.

For those of you who haven't read it, this story is about a group of nurses who were stationed in and near the Phillipines in 1941, and were uptimately captured and held prisoner at a huge Japanese detention/prison camp. They were there for approximately 3 years, where they continued working as nurses, while enduring incredible hardships, illness and near starvation.

It's the kind of a book that you would like today's young women to read. It would give them a better understanding of WWII, war in general, sacrifice, and the courage it took to survive under the very worst of conditions. Alas, most young women today are not interested or impressed with true stories of heroics. However, I do think we older women can appreciate this book ... especially those of us who remember WWII.

Harold - I wonder if you or some of the readers here have read or heard about this book. I love my History, and am sending for the book. If you have time, follow the link and read the review from Dallas Morning News.

Do you think this would be a good Discussion Book?

Savage Kingdom

Savage Kingdom, The True Story of Jamestown, 1607, by Benjamin Woolley

Sun

633 days 21 hours 16 minuets 14 seconds_ Until Bush leaves office.

This is a most interesting book if you are interested in people and places. The author is Rory Stewart, a young Englishman,who has been very involved with important work first in Iraq and now in Afghanistan. He writes about his long and fascinating WALK across the Middle East. His other book, also well worth reading, is Prince of the Marshes.

I just finished reading Rory Stewart's "The Places In Between". I'm anxious to read his "Marshes" book. Is it as good?

I will miss David Halberstam, i liked his books and especially liked seeing him commentary on tv shows. He seemed like someone i would like to have a conversation with. Bill Moyers did a nice comment about him tonight on his new PBS show. About DH's Vietnam reporting and how the administration tried to blackball him from journalism...............hooray, Bill is back on PBS.

Jean

Mabel, I too am glad to see Bill Moyers back. He had the special earlier in the week, then last night started his new series every Friday night at 9:00 Central Time, "Bill Moyers Journal." One full hour. Yahoooo! Last night featured a serious Jon Stewart (The Daily Show, Comedy Central channel on cable) and for the life of me, I can't recall who/what was featured during the second half. Sometimes I drop off to sleep, unaware that I'm doing that. Yipes. I'm OLD I guess.

Howzat, Moyers interviewed a blogger named Josh Marshall on the second part of the show. He was excellent, too, of course. We'd never heard of him before, but we've now bookmarked his blog and will be checking it. Just put the name in google. Also, he listed some people who will be on upcoming shows, and as Jean mentioned, gave a tribute to Halberstam.

Thanks for the memory nudge. Now I remember. Thanks for the name so I can mark the site, too.

Is that Josh Marshall site called Talking Points Memo? Fascinating reading; it's been bookmarked. Did you see the Bill Moyers PBS program about the press and the Iraq War movement? Apparently the entire press corps was seduced by the Bush administration except the Knight-Ridder group of newspapers. I've always wondered why the papers were sold to McClatchey due to subscribers complaints. Pressure from the pro-war folks?

I am in the middle of reading "Marshes" and so far pretty good. Not yet able to compare with his previous book. I watched an interview with the author and found him very interesting to listen to. Gentle ben.

--- will come May 14. I am currently preparing a short 45 minute summary talk outlining the history of its early years for our Seniors Group resident at the Chandler Apartments in San Antonio. Thank you Sunknow for brining-up this celebration in your message #274 above. and your comment on Savage Kingdom- The True Story of Jamestown and the Settlement of America by Benjamin Woolley..

One of my source books is Jamestown, 1544 – 1699 by James Bridenbaugh. This book is apparently now out of print. I like it because it offers a concise account of the colony’s first one-hundred years and for its interesting account of Spanish activity in the Chesapeake bay area in 1561 almost 50 years before the English arrived. In particular Bridenbaugh’s theory that the Powhatan Chieftain, Openchancanough who opposed the English (1607 – 1642) was in fact Don Louis de Velasco the Powhatan youth brought to Spain in 1561 by the Spanish Captain, Pedro Menendez de Aviles. This Indian received 8- years Jesuit education in Spain before he was returned to his Chesapeake people. It is an interesting but unproven possibility.

Sun was this possible connection mentioned in the Woolley title?

Harold - will let you know in a day or two....the book is in the mail. I'll quickly search for any Don Louis de Velasco reference and get back to you. Not long to May 14th.

Shucks....Wish I could attend your talks....<grin>

Sun

I did something today that was unusual for me - I went exploring by myself and took myself to a museum. I had read in The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto about the Connecticut charter that King Charles II gave to John Winthrop Jr. - granting Connecticut the land from Massachusetts to Virginia and from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. I saw on the web that the charter was kept in the Connecticut Museum of History in Hartford, so I found the museum and went there today.

It was thrilling! There are security guards and they X-ray purses before you can go in. The charter is kept in a vault that is opened during the day. It is HUGE - taller than I am - and in an ornate oak frame carved with oak leaves and acorns, supposedly wood from the charter oak tree in which the charter supposedly was hidden so the king's men couldn't take it back. The charter has a drawing of Charles II on it and beautiful drawings of plants and flowers all along the top.

In front of the charter in a glass case is The Fundamental Orders of 1639 which is the first American constitution - the reason CT is called "The Constitution State."

All in all, it was a pretty exciting day!

How interesting, MARNI. I would never have imagined the charter to be so big. You know, rolled up scroll type of thing is more what one envisions. I wonder if that type of security is typical of all museums now...or if the Connecticut Museum of History had to upgrade security because of the popularity of Shorto's book?

Babi

Babi: The security was tighter than what I've usually seen at museums even though security has been greatly bumped up at places you might expect - ferry to the Statue of Liberty, etc. I loved that the charter was kept in a vault. It's wonderful to see how documents that we have read about are considered so valuable and important today.

Harold, the written records in colonial Jamestowne record the Atlantic sturgeon(Acipenser oxyrhynchus) as their first cash crop. Landings prior to the turn of the century estimate seven million pounds were harvested. Both the Chesapeake and the Delaware bay produced prolific sturgeon runs. In New Jersey in the "old" days Russia sent inspectors to the Delaware bay side communities to certify/approve sturgeon row for shipment to Russia. A Virginia Chesapeake bay conservation group have started a sturgeon nursery in an attempt to restore this fish to the bay once again. The sturgeon is "an ancient fish whose origin dates back 70 million years." Of further interest I had a friend who excavated a prehistoric site on the Pennsylvania side of the upper Delaware river and recovered a dorsal scute from a sturgeon in situ. He sent the scute to U.S. Fish and Wildlife lab for their analysis and comment: the report said ' The scute appears to be a dorsal scute from the Atlantic sturgeon. Based on the size of the scute, the fish was at least seven feet in length and one hundred fifty pounds in weight." Looks , like the "Queen" had an enjoyable time at the first English colony in America.

Harold your library may have the following book which has info regarding the early Spanish activity in Virginia. " Handbook of North American Indians Vol.15.Northeast 1978 On page 96 info regarding Opechancanough.

Interesting Opechancanough was captured by Governor Berkeley and was shot in the back and killed while in captivity. The book Savage Kingdom: The True Story of Jamestown and the Settlement of America is available from Wal-Mart-$17.42.Booksamillion.com-$19.24 B& Noble -$22.00

Do you subscribe to the theory voiced by Carl Bridenbaugh and other historians that the Opechancanough active at Jamesown (1607 – 1644) was the same person as the Indian boy taken to Spain in 1561 by Admiral Pedro Menendes de Aviles who appears in Spanish 16th century records as Don Luis de Velasco? This Indian, the son of a chief was educated and converted by the Dominicans and Jesuits and finally returned to the Chesapeake in 1569. Further Spanish Records have three Jesuit Priests accompanying Don Luis to Virginia who were never heard from again. The Bridenbaugh theory is that Don Luis lapsing into apostasy reverted to his Indian ways, killed the priests about 1571, and later as a 60 to 100 year old led his people’s opposition to the invading English.

The Bridenbaugh account makes it seem possible and I suppose it is possible, yet I have great trouble in accepting this theory. Even though the 1607 – 1644 Opechancanough seems to exhibit much knowledge of European technology, power, and customs, it just seems unlikely that any 17th century man could remain so capable as to fight wars and lead a people from about 60 years old to his century mark when he was finally shot as a prisoner at Jamestown in 1644.

I guess another clue linking the Jamestown Opechancanough to the Spanish Don Luis is that the name in the Algonkian language means “he whose sole is white.” I understand that the Bishop of Richmond has nominated the three Jesuits thought to have been killed by Opechancanough about 1571 for sainthood. This nomination is now making its way through the long Vatican selection process.

I tho't "saints" had to perform miracles????....jean

--- believe me I am no expert in Church law, but I think you are right that canonization requires a showing of several miracles, and in this case that might be a problem. Even so the miracle need not have been performed during the candidates lifetime, so testimony of some post mortem miracle might yet be possible

I believe, (based on a movie I saw, which of course is an impeccable source)

) that three miracles are the minimum requirement for sainthood. And postmortem miracles are quite acceptable, usually reported occurring at a gravesite or in the presence of relics of the deceased. A more candid look at some of the old claims of sainthood resulted in the RC Church dropping a number of saints some time ago; they're much more cautious now.

Babi

This is the autobiography of Valentino Achak Deng and told to the author Dave Eggers, who writes the story as a novel. In the Preface Valentino writes "I told my story to the author"..."who concocted this novel",,,,"using the basic events of my life as foundation". At the end of the book he 'speaks' to the reader: "How can I pretend you do not exist. It would be almost as impossible as you pretending I do not exist" If you are interested in Africa and if you care about the tumults there, read this story about one of the Lost Boys of the Sudan.

Click Here for more detail on "What is the What" by Dave Eggers as mentioned by Gentleben in message 295 above.

Thanks for all the suggestions for good books, I've written a couple down. And POTSHERD keep up the countdown for Bush's administration - that brought a smile!!!

I just finished a good book - RIVER OF DOUBT by Candice Millard. An incredible story of Teddy Roosevelt, what a guy. Somewhat mad, I think!

Has anyone read The Lost Painting by Jonathan Harr - I think he's the one who wrote A Civil Action? I'm adding that one to my list also.

Click here for information on RIVER OF DOUBT:

River of Doubt

Have any of the Nonfiction DL's seen or read this new title? I would love to read it with the group. What do any of you think of this book for NonFiction? I would like to nominate it for a book discussion. I haven't read it yet. It looks really interesting to me.

Presidential Courage

Here is a First Chapter.

First chapter Presidential Courage

Thank you Hats for your comments on The "Presidential Courage" title by Micheal Beschloss. I must confess that is the first time I have heard of this author although he has a long list of previous titles in the B&N catalog, Click Here. Most of his previous titles are on political subjects related to the American Presidency. Click Here for a short Web biographical sketch.

Harold, thank you very much for the clickables.

I am reading Visual Thinking by Rudolf Arnheim copyright1969 and renewed in 1997...have you ever discussed this book? An example from poet Denise Levertov..."And as you read / the sea is turning its dark pages / turning / its dark pages."...The motion of waves and the turning of pages is then discussed. I years ago had a dream all night of someone turning pages of a book until by morning I was exausted. I wonder if when I finish the book my thinking will be improved...the book does make one stretch. Just wondered if you have discussed it...Ann

Visual Thinking sounds fascinating!

That sounds wonderful.

It does sound wonderful.

Ann - Sounds like a fascinating book. I've added it to my list of library books for tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion.

Click Here for more detailed information on “Visual Thinking” by Rudolf Amheim . It is described being used for the past 35 years by art educators psychologists, and general readers.

Also see “Art and Visual Perceptions” by the same author. Click Here. This may be the same work published earlier by the same aughor?

I suspect these titles might be of interest on the Poetry Board also.

I am not too old to remember the Rolling Stones when they first began back in the early 60s. I doubt that many young people today know who started the band--Brian Jones.

I came across this biography which has just been published titled. "Brian Jones Straight From The Heart" by Gloria Shepherd.

This is the only book to tell the Rolling Stones story from the point of view of its founder, Brian Jones. With raw energy, extreme talent, unbridled sexuality, and a fiery imagination Brian propelled his band to superstardom. Legends Dylan, Lennon, McCartney, and Hendrix considered him one of their own. The Sixties generation, the decade of love, began with Brian's creating the Rolling Stones and ended with his suspicious death in July 1969. Without his band that promoted free love, sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll, there never would have been that decade of love. Brian decided to promote the music of the Delta Blues, America's true gospel music. He succeeded so well that the Rolling Stones is the only rock group from that era to continue to tour worldwide. After a fight with his band over musical direction, Brian planned to start anew and take the Rolling Stones name with him. Three weeks after being released from the band he created, Brian mysteriously drowned in his swimming pool.

More on the book is here: http://www.brian-jones-book.com

Link to excerpts from the book is here: http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/0974209368/ref=s9_asin_title_1/104-9083171-8545559?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center- 1&pf_rd_r=18XMK6DAMKE4SDFXZ01W&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=288448401&pf_rd_i=507846

See the New York Post article: http://www.nypost.com/seven/05132007/gossip/pagesix/studly_stench_pagesix_.htm

Walking With the Wind - John Lewis' autobiography

A friend loaned me her signed copy to read and it's WONDERFUL! It's like watching a movie in your mind as you read his descriptions. Of course, some of the events we saw on tv at the time or since, so that gives us a picture also. It is a big book and jam packed, but i don't mind because it is a real behind the scenes view of the Civil Rights Movement. Many of us knew of the violence and the major events, but there is so much that didn't make the news. Lewis does a terrific job of giving you his thoughts and feelings as he made his journey through the later part of the 20th century.

He's also very complimentary of the hundreds of women who did much of the organizing of events, then the men came along to lead the parades/demonstrations and take the credit.

Has anyone else read it?........jean

Click Here for a web biography of Brian Joans. This outlines his association with the stones and there are details regarding his death.

My husband and I are going to read The Assault on Reason, the new book out by Al Gore.

Here's part of a brief review on Amazon.com: "...It's the political environment he's concerned about in The Assault on Reason: the way we debate and decide on the critical issues of the day. In an account that balances theoretical discussion of the foundations of democracy with a lacerating critique of the Bush administration, Gore argues that the marketplace of reasoned debate our country was founded on is being endangered by a variety of allied forces: the use of fear and the misuse of faith, the distractions of our entertainment culture, and the concentrations of power in the national media and the executive branch...."

http://www.amazon.com/Assault-Reason-Al-Gore/dp/1594201226

During June and July I have recommended that the Book Clubs I facilitate read DEAREST FRIEND, A Biography of Abigail Adams, by Lynne Withey. We are constantly being reminded of our "founding fathers".........why not read about a "founding mother". Abigail Adams was not the typical woman of the Revolutionary War. She was a strong, educated and far-thinking woman, who helped make John Adams the man and President he was. If she were with us today, she would be running for President, I am sure, probably putting our current candidates on guard. Read about Abby........you will learn all about our beginnings, and how she helped shape them. Only Abigail and Barbara Bush have been married to a President and a mother to one.

VIVIANGIRL: I would love to read her biography. We read a shortened version when we had a discussion of "Founding Mothers" by Cokie Roberts a while ago. And I have read Mc Collough's (sp.) biography of John Adams, which of course talks about Abagail as well. She was indeed an interesting woman.

Don't know if it's everyone's cuppa, but I picked this up off a sale rack and have been ruefully laughing my head off.

I've read a lot about Abigail Adams, but not that book. I'm going to be leading a four part discussion at our community school in the fall about presidential couples - the Adames are one of the couples, i'll have to put that on my reading list......jean

Jeanlock, that sounds like an intriguing book, and 'ruefully laughing' tells me it's both funny, and painfully true. Does it aim at a particular class of 'liars' (like politicians) or does it fire a widespread volley?

Babi

BaBi,

So far, his chief targets have been Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter, and Sean Hannity. But that's only 91 pp. Those folks happen to be pet peeves of mine, and it does my old heart good to see him show them up for the liars they are. And he isn't just ranting, he documents the lies chapter and verse. To me, it was worth every one the the five hundred and ninety-five pennies it cost. It's downright cathartic!

Okay, my abysmal ignorance of things political is now revealed. I don't know any of those people. I generally recognize the top political names of the day, and that's about it, but I do manage to recognize a boondoggy when I hear one.

Babi

Babi

Consider yourself blessed. They are all right-wing personalities. They tend to spout outrageous accusations against the 'left' (Democrats). The Franken book dissects some of these accusations and shows how they differ from the actual facts. And he's very funny doing it. I consider it a great catharsis.

Having heard an interview with the author on NPR, I reserved the book Richistan by Robert Frank. This is an analysis of the lifestyles of the superrich, almost like an anthropological study of a strange culture so far removed from my own that it is beyond imagination.

The subject of Aaron Burr is getting attention these days and I have just finished reading about him in a book by Buckner F. Melton, Jr., (2002) a historian and professor of law at North Carolina University. Naturally the book is heavy on the laws Congress passed during this period, but the author also writes of the history of this period. For example -

"Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration of Independence, the supreme assailant of empire, had shown himself as North America's first great imperialist. Not only had he bought Louisiana, thus ignoring the region's right to self-determination as completely as had the Spanish and French; he had then signed a bill denying self-rule to the people there, Creoles and others who had awakened one morning to find themselves in a different country than the one they had gone to bed in. 'Our new fellow citizens,' he declared, 'are as yet as incapable of self-government as children.'"

"Florida, Texas, Mexico, the slow-burning Creole anger-all of these forces swirled around Burr as he started to woo New Orleans."

Burr, previously, had taken leave of the Senate and he wrote to a friend - "in New York I am to be disfranchised and in New Jersey hanged. Having substantial objections to both, I shall not, for the present, hazard either, but shall seek another country."

A more recent book, actually just published and I have it on reserve at my Library, is a book about Burr titled FALLEN FOUNDER by Nancy Isenberg.

Anyone interested in discussing Aaron Burr and his era?

The following books on Aaron Burr are from a search of the B&N on-line catalog on the search phrase "Aaron Burr Biographies." Click the http URL address for B&N catalog description and information.

Ella we must discuss a Burr biography this fall or winter. You choose the title you think best.

Fallen Founder: The Life of Aaron Burr Nancy Isenberg http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780670063529&itm=1

Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation Joseph J. Ellis http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780375705243&itm=3

I read this book when it was first published. It contains something like a dozen stories relative to different Founding Fathers. As I remember the principal Burr story comes in a story of the Burr-Hamilton duel.

Aaron Burr William Wise http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780595196302&itm=7

A Fatal Friendship: Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr Arnold A. Rogow http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780809016211&itm=8

Aaron Burr: And the Young Nation Scott Ingram http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781567112504&itm=9

Aaron Burr: The Rise and Fall of an American Politician Buckner F. Melton, Buckner F. Melton http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780823966264&itm=10 This is the author Ella mentioned in post #321

Jefferson's Vendetta: The Pursuit of Aaron Burr and the Judiciary Joseph Wheelan http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780786714377&itm=11

Aaron Burr: Conspiracy to Treason Buckner F. Melton http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780471392095&itm=12 This is the author Ella mentioned in post #321.

Aaron Burr, Vol. 1 Meade Minngerode, Samuel H. Wandell http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780766160965&itm=13 Aaron Burr, Vol. 2 Meade Minngerode, Samuel H. Wandell http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780766160972&itm=14

Cipher/Code of Dishonor: Aaron Burr, an American Enigma Alan J. Clark M. D., Alan J. Clark http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781420846379&itm=16

Memoirs of Aaron Burr: With Miscellaneous Selections from His Correspondence (2 Volume Set) Aaron Burr, Matthew L. Davis (Selected by) http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780781280532&itm=19

Many people have recommended that I read "Founding Brothers", and I was planning on doing so this Summer. If Seniornet has not yet discussed it, I would love to do so!

Hello, my name is Sheila. I am new to Senior Net, online. I watch CSpan2 every weekend. From there I bought a book called: "Savage Peace", by Ann Hagedorn. I am finding it fascinating! So much of what is going on in the world now, was going on then.

It is very informative. I am finding out so much about the period following the first World War. I highly reccomend it.

Sheila

Welcome, Sheila. Savage Peace sounds very interesting. That period has always fascinated me, perhaps because of its vast contradictions, and it was the ending of a (semi-) golden age.

HI, again, SHEILA. We're following each other! It sounds interesting. The period after WWI was a great one for literature, especially in England, with the Lost Generation. It would be interesting to read about what was going on then to cause what seemed to me to be such pessimism.

--- to the non-fiction board. We hope you will return often with your reading comments. Click Here for more on Savage Peace by Daniel F. Bolger. The link is to the hard cover because I have observed that B&N sometimes provides more commentary with the hard cover link. In this case a Paperback edition is available.

I am sometimes confused by the term “Lost Generation.” Does it refer to the entire WW I generation, European and American or only the small specific group of American literary people living and writing in Paris during the 1920’s? Two years ago we discussed three Hemingway titles, “Movable Feast” (Non-fiction) and “The Razor’s Edge,” and “The Moon and a Sixpence” (fiction).

Little help, please. I have an old book that has come down thru the family and may decide to sell it. It even has a decendent's note still clipped in it. Titled "Frontier Fighter" by George W. Coe (as related to Nan Hillary Harrison). I think it is a first edition dated in 1934. Printed by The Riverside Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA. Any one know how to go about such a project? Thank you, Wowillie.

Hello WoWillie. I don't have the slightest idea, but if you were to ask at your local library they might be able to help you. Also if you are near a University Library I am sure they could help. Have you tried online?

I'd like to discuss Aaron Burr but I must read the latest one (Fallen Founder) before deciding. My library purchased quite a number of them which is a good indication they think there is reader interest. Furthermore, I have been on that reserve list for quite awhile now.

Harold, my library has many of those books above, but some of them are quite old and I think that it has been shown that the most recent book, if done well, (such as a McCullough would do) and an author who knows how to research the material would give us the best impression and the best discussion.

Is that true or not? I truly don't know, but am assuming????

Your "Frontier Fighter" by George W. Coe appears to have had a 1991 reprint edition that is now also out of print. The following two links are from old booksellers quoting two 1991 copies now on the market at a rather high price ($56 - $141).

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/used/product.asp?z=y&EAN=2699491628893&Itm=2

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/used/product.asp?z=y&EAN=2696889544827&Itm=1

Your 1934 edition should be pricier, but I would not count on retiring a mortgage. I suppose your best approach would be to take it to a reputable rare bookseller in your area and see what his offer price might be. First you might find more web information. I got the above prices via the B&N catalog. You might try a Google search on the search stream, "Frontier Fighter" by George W. Coe. You might find more information. Other Google search might include- Rare Book Dealers. I have no ideal how you would determine if a Bookseller is Reputable..

Ella, your proposal (?) to discuss a Burr bio comes at a very good time for me. I'm half way through Ron Chernow's ALEXANDER HAMILTON, and thinking I must read a BURR book next to get the other side of the story. The Isenberg book sounds good. Thanks for all the links, Harold.

What a lot of interesting work is being done on the people involved in the great events following the Revolution. What a stormy decade, the 1790s. Has anyone read William Safire's SCANDALMONGER? It looks like a good 'historical novel' treatment of the political issues of the period, and the public and private morals of the 'founding' set.

I read an Aaron Burr bio many years ago, but can't recall the title or author. What i do remember is that he had a brilliant daughter and treated her w/ great equity and respect. I guess that was new information for me, most of his story was familiar to me, so i remembered the new info....of course, i also read Gore Vidal's "Burr" many years ago also, maybe it was reading that that lead me to read a bio.........jean

Thank you for your responce. No, probably not worth retirement money. Ha! I found only one available at a place called Abe Books on line for about $250.00, from a book seller somewhere. Also found only three libraries that own a copy now. A few years back there were a few more copies available priced to about five hundred I think. I see no ISBN number and this copy is a green hard copy, I think in pretty good shape. Yes, finding an honest appraisal may be difficult. Oh well, thank y'all. Wowillie.

HI JONATHAN! It's been a long while since we met online in a discussion and I'll look forward to one on Aaron Burr. The book I just finished started with the infamous duel which ended Burr's reputation and his career in politics, if I am interpreting the book correctly.

"A dozen mysteries surround the duel, the most famous in American history, but three tower over the rest."

I admire you for tackling Chernow's Hamilton. Over 800 pages???

MABEL! Both Burr's daughter and his wife were named Theodosia. I'll quote this paragraph:

"He (Burr) was always a neat and splendid dresser, who enjoyed intelligent conversation and elegant living. He was devoted to his wife and his daughter, both of whom bore the name Theodosia. He had the capacity for hard work that most successful people share. And though we rarely know what he thought, or why he did what he did, we know one thing beyond any doubt, Aaron Burr was a traitor."

He was from a family who had a high social standing; his father was a preacher and president of Princeton; his cousin ran the best law school that the young republic could boast. Burr had solid connections.

WOWILLIE, come discuss a book with us! We take our time; a full month actually with a few chapters each week and have a good time doing it!

I have two other books on the reserve list at the library and am wondering why I reserved them? It must have been that the authors were on C-Span one weekend; I have noticed that when that happens their books become very popular and very scarce. The books are:

The power broker: Robert Moses and the fall of New York by Robert Caro

No excuses : concessions of a serial campaigner by Robert Shrum

Does anyone know anything about these two books? Read either one of them?

Ella,

Go for the book by Robert Caro. It was very popular when it first came out, and I've always wanted to read it myself. Guess I'll check out the Google "used books" site.

Ella, go for the book by Robert Caro. I checked Amazon's used book section, and they have it for about $8. I always wanted to read that, but hadn't thought about it for years. Following are some of the comments on the Amazon site.

"Surely the greatest book ever written about a city." --David Halberstam

"A masterpiece of American reporting. It's more than the story of a tragic figure or the exploration of the unknown politics of our time. It's an elegantly written and enthralling work of art." --Theodore H. White

"The most absorbing, detailed, instructive, provocative book ever published about the making and raping of modern New York City and environs and the man who did it, about the hidden plumbing of New York City and State politics over the last half-century, about the force of personality and the nature of political power in a democracy. A monumental work, a political biography and political history of the first magnitude." --Eliot Fremont-Smith, New York

"One of the most exciting, un-put-downable books I have ever read. This is definitive biography, urban history, and investigative journalism. This is a study of the corruption which power exerts on those who wield it to set beside Tacitus and his emperors, Shakespeare and his kings." --Daniel Berger, Baltimore Evening Sun

"Fascinating, every oversize page of it." --Peter S. Prescott, Newsweek

"A study of municipal power that will change the way any reader of the book hereafter peruses his newspaper." --Philip Herrera, Time

"A triumph, brilliant and totally fascinating. A majestic, even Shakespearean, drama about the interplay of power and personality." --Justin Kaplan

"In the future, the scholar who writes the history of American cities in the twentieth century will doubtless begin with this extraordinary effort." --Richard C. Wade, The New York Times Book Review

"The feverish hype that dominates the merchandising of arts and letters in America has so debased the language that, when a truly exceptional achievement comes along, there are no words left to praise it. Important, awesome, compelling--these no longer summon the full flourish of trumpets this book deserves. It is extraordinary on many levels and certain to endure." --William Greider, The Washington Post Book World

"Apart from the book's being so good as biography, as city history, as sheer good reading, The Power Broker is an immense public service." --Jane Jacobs

"Required reading for all those who hope to make their way in urban politics; for the reformer, the planner, the politician and even the ward heeler." --Jules L. Wagman, Cleveland Press

I think the principal historical writings of Gore Vidal are “Lincoln,” “Julian,” “Burr.” And “1876.” There are other with historical or political themes that are similar. The only one I have read is “Julian.” I thought it was very good with quite an accurate historical background in which the Emperor Julian (the Apostate) and other historical people became characters with fictional character in the historical setting.

I remember I also had a copy of “Burr” but I never got around to reading it. The copy has not survived my down sizing move last year. It might make a good follow-up discussion to our non-fiction biography discussion?

By the way the first name,“Gore” came from his mother’s family making Gore Vidal and Al Gore distant cousins. Click Here for a web biography.

I think he is best known for his multi-volume (tome) biography of Lyndon Johnson. I have the “Master of the Senate” volume. It is something like a thousand pages of detail on his years in the Senate. I have never read it page by page but have often use it to research particular events relative to LBJ’s Senate career. I have used some of this material in posts on this board and other Seniorsnet books boads.

John has read Caro's Master of the Senate, and says it's an amazing description of how the Senate works. LBJ's part in this, and the time, but it's really a primer on the inner working of the Senate. He found it fascinating.

I'm really looking forward to a Burr discussion whatever is chosen. I bought Fallen Founder awhile ago and had planned to read it in May, but was sidetracked with some historical novels. Several weeks ago I was driving along Old Main Street in East Windsor (CT) - just across the CT River from my town of Windsor - where there are a number of very old houses. I came across a plaque that said I was looking at the birthplace of Jonathan Edwards. He was Aaron Burr's grandfather, a famous evangelical minister, and also a president of Princeton. What a surprise that was!

I absolutely loved Vidal's Lincoln and will definitely have to read his book on Burr. I read Chernow's bio of Hamilton and think it was one of the best biographies I have ever read. I just loved it. I really know next to nothing about Burr except what I read in the Chernow book and, of course, about the duel. Burr sounds like a fascinatingly sinister man. I wonder if that was true.

Regarding Mary Z's comment on ” Master of the Senate,” I would certainly agree that it is a real textbook on all aspects of the operations of the Senate and how power is wielded there and by whom. I suspect it is widely read and studied by aspiring politicians particularly those who are fortunate enough to find themselves new members of that august body.

Regarding the Burr Biography I was wrong on one count anyway, the Burr title I purchased 6 years ago has survived my last year’s library downsize and move from the country house. It is the Buckner F. Melton Title “Aaron Burr- Conspiracy To Treason.” This is the book Ella mentioned by Ella in message 321 above. I will plan to read it soon so whatever book we decide on for the discussion I should have read this on for background when the discussion begins.

My copy of the Melton title has a Half Price Book Store price sticker on the dust jacket indicating I paid $12.98 for it half the publishers price on the dust cover. Even now it is in a new condition indicating it was new probable from a publisher’s surplus acquired by the Half Price Company.

The book titled " The Carpet Wars_From Kabul to Baghdad: A ten-year journey along ancient trade routes. Author is Christopher Kremmer. Kremmer notes" The early Muslims inhabited lands where people were born on carpets, prayed on them, and covered their tombs with them." Since it appears we will be involved in the Middle East for an indeterminate time I have been doing some reading of Mid Eastern people's to better understand their cultures.

Those of you wanting a quick short reading on the details of the Hamilton/Burr duel should read the short single chapter of:

Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation Joseph J. Ellis http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780375705243&itm=3

As I remember this is the first chapter in this books which includes something like a dozen chapters each of which is a story involving individual founding Fathers. Another noteworthy chapter concerns a dinner given in New Youk by Thomas Jefferson during the early Washington Presidency at which a compromise was worked out between the position of Federalists and Jeffersonian Republicans. One of the still relevant provisions of this compromise was the plan to locate the permanent national capitol on the Potomac at a new city that became Washington D.C

Click Here for more information on The Carpet Wars_From Kabul to Baghdad as mentioned by Potsherd in the meassage above.

"the carpet Wars" sounds fascinating!

I took all of your suggestions, spent money (through Amazon's Used Books, another suggestion one of you made and I thank you!) and bought and bought books! My dining room table is full of books, I love them, but it will take all summer, and all winter to read them. Wow, they are big - but beautiful to look and contemplate the happy hours I will spend reading and learning.

I now have Ron Chernow's Hamilton book (all 730 pages) - Pay attention, JONATHAN! You talked me into this.

And to top that, I have Caro's book regarding Robert Moses - with 1160 pages (can you believe it, it's the biggest book I think I have ever purchased! A huge thing on my coffee table and I shall show it off to people telling them of my literary efforts! Hahahahaa But it reads well and I shall in time...............lots of pictures of his achievements in New York, lots of roads, bridges, housing developments bear his name.

Those were used books and fairly inexpensive; then I bought FALLEN FOUNDER by Isenberg which is more reasonable in size and I think we can all enjoy discussing it in the fall, with references from other books. The author states in the prologue (which I am dying to read about in the Hamilton book mentioned above):

"Many of the lies and exaggertions that obscure the real Burr focus on his relationship to Alexander Hamilton. Historians have been too trusting of Hamilton's portrait of Burr, discounting his partisan motives in blackening Burr's name. Only half of that story has been told. Hamilton, an extrememly motivated political thinker, was also a master of backroom politics."

It will be a challenge to discover the truth betwen the two books or any other!! Or does Ron Chernow defend Hamilton? Shall we take up sides (without a duel, of course!) And how do two men settle their differences today in what is supposedly a more subdued civilized polite society?

ELLA: that's great! I owe a lot to Amazon's used books. Let us know how the book is.

Whew! I really don't think I would be that interested in Robert Moses!

Babi

I'm not sure I am either, Babi! To what other use could I put this book?

Ella: That's great you got ahold of the Chernow book. I lent mine to a relative after thinking carefully about it. I don't usually mind lending books to relatives. More often than not they do not return. That's why I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about the Hamilton book. I absolutely have to get it back because I want it to remain in my library. I may read it again which is rare for me to do. Enjoy!

One question to be answered through our Burr discussion (Whatever title we decide on) will be, " should Aaron Burr be included as Founding Father. True he served in the army during the revolution but in a relative minor military (Non-political leadership) role?

His career to me at first blush seems relative to the first wave political leadership of the emerging republic, not truly with the political leadership that led the revolution to a successful conclusion. Did he participate in the convention that wrote the Constitution in 1787? In 1801 he certainly came close (closer) than Al Gore (in 2000) to obtaining the Presidency.

But this is a question to be threshed out during our discussion.

You describe an ambitious book acquisition program. I must avoid visits to our local Half-Price Book store lest I again acquire more than my three, four foot wide, five shelf book cases can handle.

Harold - surely you know by now: THE SIZE OF THE BOOKCASE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT..!

I can vouch for that. When it comes to books, practicality, common sense, economical situation, whatever....it's all out the window.

I once complained to my fellow Inspectors in the Office, that I absolutely had to stop buying so many books. I would downsize, donate to small libraries, and go right out and buy more books. It was suggested that I start going to the library across the street from the bookstore. I decided to resume my love affair with local libraries, and do just that. I had grown up in a house without books, except for the ones I brought home from the library as a child.

Off to the Library, I went, with my new resolve.....I'd go and check out an armload of books, but not finding something I wanted, went straight across the street and bought more books than I'd borrowed. It must be a psychological weakness, or maybe a strong addiction.

Now, it is so easy to buy them online. The one's called "used" always turn out to be brand new, and cheap. Still, there always seems to be one or two more expensive ones, that I can't resist. I suppose if you must have a weakness, what better one to have?

Sun

Good question Harold, and it will be an interesting one to explore. What does the word "founding" imply?"

Isenberg's book is not as interesting (and I have not read very far into it) as Buckner Melton's, and I'm not sure of the reason. Of course, I may change my mind as I get further along.

There is this one paragraph:

"Indeed, though the Revolution had been waged by young men, the act of nation building became enshrined as the province of fathers. As George Washington assumed the presidency in 1789, he was styled the 'friend and father' of his country. Today we still idolize the founders as austere and wise and long past their days of youthful excess and indulgence."

The author continues by emphasizing Burr's youth and his exuberance which has been romanticized. He doesn't fit the mold of a founder; however, the book is entitled FALLEN FOUNDER; the Life of Aaron Burr.

Hi folks: I've been participating on the fiction side of things for a few weeks now, and now I'm stopping by to check out things on the nonfiction side.

I work full-time on science manuscripts, and when I read nonfiction for pleasure, I don't have much patience for weighty tomes. I need to be entertained by a book to stick with it. I often like to read books written by journalists, who like me are professional dilletantes who take up a subject that is inherently interesting and make a good story of it.

Here's my question: What individual nonfiction book discussions are on offer? I see The History of Civilization, but what else? Is there an archive of past discussions that I could check? If I found a book I’d like to read, I’d certainly sign up.

--- thank you for your post. We surely hope that you will drop by this non-fiction board often. The truth is that I too at this time read for pleasure. I don’t heve much patience with long lengthy tomes.

In answer to some of your specific questions Click Here for the archive for all of our discussions over the past Decade. Click the Non-fiction link on the Archive entrance page for the archived record of some 102 nonfiction titles that have been discussed. You will find on this list discussions of many of the non-fiction titles on all subjects that have been popular during the period plus some of the older titles.

Right now here we are planning the discussion of an Aaron Burr biography. This will probable come during the coming early winter. Ella is now reviewing the current crop of titles and will make a choice soon. Further announcements will be made here as plans are completed.

Here are additional seniorsnet/books boards that will help you to understand seniorsnet/books and participate in discussions:

Click Here for the Book Nook

Click Here for “The Road, by Cormac McCarthy that is proposed for discussion in September.

And Click Here for The Drawing Board that lists other titles planned for discussion.

CHRISTINE: and check out our science and math discussions, if you haven't already.

Has anyone mentioned the biography of Kepler: "Kepler's Witch"? I found the writing a bit annoying: one of the authors that likes the good stories so much, he repeats them a number of times. And like most popular science, a bit weak on discussing what KKeplar actually DID! But in spite of those weaknesses, I found it quite readable, and the story was fascinating!!

Kepler was one of those people who always said exactly what he thought, and was convinced that everyone would see that he was right, even when he told people that what they believed or said was nonsense. In Europe, in a climate where people were being killed for their religious beliefs, and Galileo was jailed for his scientific beliefs, this was suicidal, and the miracle was that Kepler survived: but only to be kicked out of every place he went.

Thanks, Harold and Joan. I'll stay tuned to see what turns up.

I'm halfway through the FALLEN FOUNDER book by Isenberg. It's quite detailed and I get bogged down occasionally in it but am determined to go through it. The politics of that era (post-revolutionary) are fascinating; they were just as accusatory and nasty as they are today.

Now, of course, I won't know which book to choose for our discussion this coming fall/winter. And I've yet to start the Hamilton book!

The Melton Buckner book is, in many ways, the better book; however, Isenberg gives us so much more. Rich in details. And she is so defensive about Aaron Burr, answering every criticism ever posed about him. That in itself would be a great discussion.

Thank you for welcoming me. I have put aside my copy of "Savage Peace", to pick up another book about this period. The title is: "Young J. Edgar Hoover", by Kenneth D. Ackerman. The sub title is: "Hoover, The Red Scare, And The Assult On Civil Liberties".

I find it fascinating! I think by reading it first, the first book I suggested will be even more meaningful. Have any of you read either one?

Sheila

Click Here for information on "Young J. Edgar: Hoover, the Red Scare, and the Assault on Civil Liberties," by Kenneth D. Ackerman. This appears to be a new publication released by the publisher in April 2007. Those of us who participated in Ella's discussion of G. Gordon Liddy's autobiography, "Will," remember his comment on Hoover as a young FBI Agent.

I remember certain bad accusations made by Edgar Hoover about Martin Luther King. I bet it is an interesting book.

And after J. Edgar Hoover had been safely dead for a number of years, we began to hear a lot of very serious accusations about his abuses of power.

Babi

And after President Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton have been dead for decades, centuries, I'm reading some serious accusations against both of these men, whom we have revered in our history.

From Isenberg's book - FALLEN FOUNDER"

"Hamilton's ability to switch gears reconfirms a simple fact: his vicious criticism of Burr was movitated by simple politics - his fear of Burr as an opposition leader - and not by distaste for Burr's personal character."

And on and on the criticism of Hamilton continues as the author's defense of Burr builds throughout the book.

I believe Marnie has read the biography of Hamilton by Chernow. Perhaps she can help us in this respect if we decide to discuss Burr.

And Jefferson! Good heavens! The author certainly gives us a dark portrayal of this icon!

He never appointed his former vice-president to any cabinet post during his second term of office nor gave him any character references for any position; instead he spread unfounded rumors about Burr:

"Jefferson................abruptly called the cabinet together, on October 22, 1806, to discuss Burr. Though he was relying on hearsay, he mentioned that Burr had 'opened himself confidentially to some persons' and revealed his 'scheme of separating the Western from the Atlantic States, and erecting the former into an independent confederacy.'"

I looked up the author's source for that quote and it was found in THE WRITINGS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, Lipscomb and Bergh, eds. Jefferson's ANAS.

"relying on hearsay"

This author, if we can believe all she writes, is convinced the Burr conspiracy was founded on hearsay and spread by the media.

What's new?

Shall we discuss this book? How about a proposed date for November?

This review of the Burr book at Amazon:

Fallen Founder by Nancy Isenberg

And at Barnes & Noble:

Fallen Founder

My dictionary does not have the word "founder" in it, but "found" has this meaning:

To originate or establish (something); set up, as a college, to establish the foundation of, lay a base for.

With that thought in mind, we will have to decide if Aaron Burr was indeed a "founder."

I would enjoy reading and discussins a book about Burr. I read a bio about 20 years ago and found him much more interesting than just what i had learned in history classes up until that point - and i was a history major and had my masters in history by that time! So, i would like to read another bio of him. This one sounds like it has new info and a different perspective than the one i read.......jean

Ella, you're asking so many interesting questions, that it would make for a very worthwhile discussion to find the answers. It seems that Isenberg is trying to rescue Burr from the cruel judgements of the history makers. Good for her. Chernow in his HAMILTON book is fairly even-handed, and despite favoring his hero Hamilton, he does suggest it seems to me, that Hamilton had it coming to him, in driving Burr to challenge him. Perhaps Burr has been misrepresented, or misunderstood by many. But he wasn't a Founder like Hamilton was, despite the strange role he played in the politics of the time.

From what your posting, it seems that Burr tried very hard to found his own country in the west, or was it also an attempt to get the New England states to secede and regroup into something new? His actions led to a trial, I believe, giving CJ Marshall and his colleagues an opportunity to define treason. Burr's story might add up to taking a new look at many things pertaining to that exciting time.

You make a good point, Jonathan, about the Chernow book. The author certainly points out some of Hamilton's flaws very vividly.

Count me in for the Burr discussion! It should be excellent!!!

Click Here for the B&N Catalog information on "Fallen Founder By Nancy Isenberg. Ella's link in message 367 above is an Amazon,com book page but not the Fallen Founder page.

Ella When do you want to formally schedule a Burr discussion and is this new Bio the one you want to do? It looks good to me! I might suggest Septemeber or better October, but let's see what the non-fiction schedule is for that month.

Have any of you read "Song of the Gorilla Nation?" It's written by a women who is autistic and was a "street" person in her teens, but by some dumb luck and the accident of watching the gorillas at the zoo began to learn how to interact and respond appropriately to people and now teaches English in a California college. My f2f group read it two years ago......someone in the Book Nook discussion mentioned that the books that are discussed here are usually history and not other non-fiction.......since autism is such a hot topic right now, i would recommend it for reading and/or discussing......jean

MABEL: that sounds fascinating!

Mabel.. Now that sounds like a really really good book. Most of the time, nonfiction gets a bit on the long and wordy side, but that sounds perfect.

Certainly this author is credible??? She holds a Chair in 19th century American History at the University Tulsa and has written extensively on issues of politics and law, etc., etc.

Will she be challenged by other historians, even though it looks as though she has done extensive research. Listen to what she has to say about a few notable authors:

In "My Thoeosia" (1941) Anya Seton hinted at incest, but stopped short of making the claim outright. Gore Vidal's bestselling "Burr" (1973) implied that incest was the motive for the famous duel with Hamilton. In his "Burr, Hamilton and Jefferson, A Study in Character" (1999) former Nixon appointee to the National Parks Service Roger Kennedy contends that Hamilton was Burr's 'fatal twin,' a variation on the Cain and Abel parable.....consumed with envy, his Hamilton is a suicidal masochist: 'He arranged to have Burr kill him.'

Ron Chernow's "Alexander Hamilton" (2004) continues in this tradition, calling Burr an assassin despite an abundance of contrary historical evicence. Chernow invents a remorseless Burr....claims that Burr was 'such a dissipated, libidinous character' that whatever Hamilton might have said to provoke the duel was justifiable.

All of these themes, she states, can be traced back to the 1790's and 1800's and in this book she attempts to prove many of these accusations false.

I'm happy that some of you want to discuss the book and Aaron Burr and the history of the post-revolutionary period of our country. Hopefully, we can include other books, other opinions, in our discussion. We will set a date.

JEAN, your post about "Song of the Gorilla Nation" certainly got my attention. I definitely want to read that story. Thanks for telling us about it.

Babi

Incidentally, the "ANAS" by Jefferson are his collected notes and I think were published????? This is just a reference in the book; perhaps one of you know more about this?

Ella, I would like to read the Aaron Burr biography. I don't have much to say. I just would like to learn from the discussion. All I know about Burr is that he fought a duel.

Just finished the subject auto; not normally interested in autos but friend recommended I read so I faithfully complied. Easy reading, interesting and author seems to be forthright in relating his many experiences. Especially interesting was his coping with the evangelical/political issue, a line that he regretfully crossed a few times. Anyone read this auto? Please comment.

--- for you comment on the Billy Graham 1999 autobiography. Click Here for more information on this title from the B&N on-line catalog.

Hello everyone: I have been away and thought I would check in and found many posts to read.

Harold:

About the Lost Generation of which you asked several posts back: These were the young people who came of age right after WWI and the climb toward the 1929 Crash began. There was money to be made, and many young fathers in New York City, especially, became caught up in the buying of stocks on credit - mostly. Virtually, no margin. Some were hoodwinked into buying "holding companies" which were nothing more than a name on an office door and a chair and table inside.

These investments produced false profits which many of these young investors, received and bought mansions, went to Europe for the Grand Tour and allowed them to bestow on their families a lavish lifestyle.

There was no watchdog of Wall Street in those days, and the atmosphere became feverish. Much debt was created.

There is a story about Bernard Baruch who used to have his shoes shined by a youngster at the entrance to one of the buildings he used to visit. One day, the shoe shine boy began to speak knowingly about investments in various firms. Bernard Baruch immediately sold his holdings with the comment that when a shoe shine boy seemed to know more about the market than he did, it was time for him to leave it.

By the way, old Jack Kennedy sold out early, too, about that time, saving his fortune.

The crash occurred on October 29, 1929, and the families- especially, the young people of these families having been focused mostly on a good time, illegitimate booze - these were Prohibition Days - think of F. Scott Fitzgerald's writings - and "loose" living suddenly found themselves adrift.

This was the Lost Generation - 1921 through 1930.

The expatriots in Paris were possibly members of this Generation - don't know how old they were - had to be twenties through thirties to be members - but simultaneously with this time they latched on to esoteric philosophical subjects led by Sartre, Kafka, Hemingway, Gertrude Stein, and Maugham - others, too.

Sorry, this was so long, but it is the jist of the definition of the Lost Generation.

A very cogent and educational post, too, MERIJO. Thanks for the explanation. ...Babi

Just started this highly acclaimed publication of subject diaries and though I'm only a hundred or so pages along, I'm very impressed with the former President's down to earth quality of his description of day-to-day events of which he faced. It's a page turner. Does anyone out there whose read it, have a comment or two. Incidentally, one's political persuasion is not at issue; just a meaningful perspective of how one man's views influenced the country's direction during the eighties and probably the future.

Hello Jim! My sister bought the Reagan Diaries book and peeks into now and then. I have not read it but have always admired Reagan, the president. It's a page turner?? I love those books, but I can't buy or bring another book home - I have too many to read now!

Tell us a bit about it. Did the President keep a daily diary and did he do it with the thought in mind of having it published someday? Do all presidents?

The Reagan Diaries

After reading about the book, I think I have the answers to the questions I posed above, but do tell us a few incidents from the book that appealed to you.

Our PBS station is showing a program on J.J.Audubon tonight at 9:00. I know some of you who were part of our discussion on JJA might be interested in seeing it.....the "intro" on my e-newsletter asks "hero or villain?" I'm curious what they consider his villainy........hope some of you get to see it.....jean

Can you doubt it for a minute, Ella?

Thanks for stopping in, Jim, and drawing our attention to The Reagan Diaries. It's good to hear that you're enjoying the read. I read a short, favorable review by John O'Sullivan, several weeks ago in my weekend newspaper. It sounds like a fine achievment by The Great Comminicator. And isn't it a much classier act than those tapes left by another president? The reviewer mentions that Edmund Morris had access to the diaries while working on DUTCH. That's another book on my shelf that I've been meaning to read.

Just As I Am reminded me of the time I went to a 'crusade' meeting when Billy Graham came to town. It must be fifty years ago. What an amazing preacher. I was sitting in the topmost row at the football stadium, with 50,000 people between me and the altar, but I did find the call very moving. Even now, when I'm feeling moody, an old George Beverley Shea tape can still lift my spirits.

Thanks to everyone who stops in here with anything related to non-fiction books. I've been put on to a lot of good books over the years. Something on the Twenties might be fun to read and discuss. That generation certainly had a lot of fun getting lost, by the sound of it.

I'm half-way through The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11, by Lawrence Wright. It's everything the title promises.

Mabel yes, we recorded it. I will look at it after watching the Schama Turner program. I'm running behind. I am very excited about the Audubon program.

My experience of a Billy Graham crusade was the same as yours, JONATHAN. The man did have a powerful presence, and seemingly was able to 'reach' huge numbers of people with his words. There have not been many of his caliber.

Babi

Recently Billy Graham's wife died. I felt very sad for him. So many years spent together. The news anchors said the whole family gathered by her side at the end. The family sung hymns by her side at the end. It made me think it is possible to make our deaths gently beautiful.

The hearing is the last to go, I'm told (although how anyone would REALLY know is beyond me). It's nice to think it's true anyway. Don't you think?

Howzat,

I have heard the same thing. When my sister died, I was with her. I felt sure she could still hear me. I felt she wanted to speak. The ability to speak wasn't there. I felt the ability to hear was still there. I don't know.

hats,

When my father was dying, my sister-in-law and I were sitting by the bed. He was, to all intents and purposes, unconscious. Betty made some rather callous (I thought) remark about "after he dies", and Dad gave a huge shudder. I am very sure he heard that remark and it disturbed him. Consequently, I've instructed my nearest and dearest that if the time comes when they have to discuss final choices, they are to do it out of my presence. What I don't know won't hurt me, I hope.

JeanLock,

It seems he did hear her. That's too bad. I will remember that incident. Your last remark made me laugh, "I hope."

Oh, goodness, talk of dying and it's such a lovely day in Ohio, I intend to live through this one!!

JONATHAN, good idea about a book on the 20's or 30's - post WWI possibly. As we are doing post revolution - a coming attraction - we can do other "posts." Post WWII, post Vietnam!

Wars, wars, we do date history in connection with wars and I wonder why that is?

Post WWII would be good as some of us were very much involved with that period. The United Nations - what effect has it had on the world, if any? Living through disastrous McCarthism, (have we had anything to compare with that?) Eisenhower, prosperity, veterans. Lots of circumstances to be discussed.

We just need suggestions for good books! Books to keep us interested.

--- Comment on The Lost Generation. Three years back we had a great discussion of the Hemingway account of his lost Generation experience with the other American expatriates in Paris in the years following WW I. Click Here for the Archive. I see they have this archived under fiction but I think since it is really biography, an account of a human experience, it should be moved to non-fiction.

Click Here for The Regan Diaries Edited by Douglas Brinkley. I see this title was just released by the publisher, Harper Collins this last May, 2007. At 767 pages it is relatively short for a day-to-day Diary of an 8-year administration. It should be interesting reading for the lay reader who remembers the period. Thank you Jim for your comment.

Ops- I see Ella had already linke the B&N "Regan Diaries" Catalog page. Thanky you Ella, I will have to pay better attention.

Ah...when we come to end of a perfect day...may there be a caring cat near you. Here's a curious story from my newspapter today:

the caring cat

After reading the story I took another look at the svelte, black, stray cat that showed up on my doorstep last october. I thought he was homeless, so I took him in. So, okay, I like the little guy. I hope he didn't come on any peculiar impulse.

JoanK, I enjoyed reading KEPLER'S WITCH, about a year ago. It was soon after that, that the cat showed up. I do allow myself to fantacize at times. It's not difficult to imagine Kepler up there among the stars he knew so well. I wonder is he still casting horoscopes?

Jonathan: They've had stuff about that cat on the news all day. My reaction was ICK! I wouldn't want it hanging around me! I'd be thinking Am I Next?

JONATHAN: do you think Keplar's Witch has returned as your cat? Hope it's a good witch.

Well, I have to say Oscar is an angel in disguise, I think.

Is my cat a witch? Judging by appearance and behavior, definitely not. But just as definitely, he seems to be familiar with their ways. Whenever I take the broom out of the closet he asks me immediately: going out?

I think many pets are sensitive in this way. When one of us is ill, our eldest cat stays close by, offering company and sympathy. I have heard of other nursing home cats who stay with a resident who is ill in bed, not just when they are dying. And I'm sure you've all heard of the trained dogs who sense when a seizure is imminent in an epileptic, and warn them so they can take safety measures.

Actually, I think more of us humans would be aware of such changes if we were just paying attention.

Babi

Since cats do not have language, perhaps other of the senses are more acute.

They must be, HOWZAT. And even tho' they don't have language, they are definitely able to communicate by other means. And they more familiar you are with your pet, the more you understand what one is trying to communicate.

A young cat 'mooched' her way into our household a few months ago. It has been fascinating to watch her pick up her cues from the older two cats, and learn how to signal Val and I for what she wants.

Babi

One reporter said cats have empathy. I know our cats can tell when my husband and/or I aren't well. Then, Boots will curl up at the foot of the bed.

Jonathan, I like hearing about your new boarder. She knows you have a heart full of hospitality, a giving heart.

Dogs also have this extra sense for illness. My old lady at 12 and a half is a loner, but let me not be well and she comes out of hiding and climbs on the bed with me and cuddles. And climbing is not easy when you are a Corgi

During the two decades I lived in the country, my rural neighbors kept telling me I should have a house cat to counter rodent and insect intruders. Well it sounded like good advice and I made at least three attempts to acquire one. All three were strays looking for a home. The first was a cute little long-haired (a negative in S. Texas) kitten. She seemed quite happy when I let her in the house in the evening climbing about my bookcases and desk seemingly fascinated by the computer and the changing screen displays. Alas, however, she turned out FIV positive so her term was not a long one.

The second try was a shorthaired black kitten. Her term was only for a few weeks before her flattened remains graced the center of the road. The third was a young almost grown short-haired red cat. Well she lasted long enough to complete some $500 plus expenditure for shots and other Veterinarian services. Her end was the result of an encounter with a pack of coyotes or dog. I don’t know for sure but I came home from work to find her dead on the fenced deck where she had taken refuge. The animals had pressured the gate until the latch was released allowing their entry.

I was only a bit more successful with dogs. Bum lasted for four years before a doggie version of Limpus killed him. Jazz lasted over 10 years before she too had a fatal road encounter with a truck.

Somewhere last week I read Jonathan’s story of the Nursing Home cat

Harold:

Thank you very much for that link to Hemingway and "The Lost Generation." It is a rich resource and I could spend a lot more time than I just did reading each subject.

I went the "Les Deux Magots" restaurant in Paris sone years ago and sat in the enclosed glass area next to the sidewalk. I had hot chocolate which my friend said was the usual thing to order there at that time of day. I was delighted thinking that I was sitting in possibly the same part of the restaurant that Hemingway, Sartre and Stein had sat. What a feeling that is! Really history.

I also was shown the Cafe du Flor where in later years the Paris Intelligensia had moved and reserved a room on the second floor for their extraordinary philosophical conversations. It's just a short distance west of the Les Deux Magots.

One could spend a lifetime in Paris soaking up all the sites and sights of that very pretty city.

Harold: Your sad experience with cats is familiar to many of us. That is why our cats are indoor only. We have coyotes around here, cougars, maybe bears. There are careless drivers on my street and the freeway is close enough to sound like surf. I've had cats with FIV, infected wounds, traffic victims, fleas. My last indoor cat survived 18 years. The two I have now are 2 years old, I've had them since they were 8 weeks old and I expect them to live for a very long, long time. They make my life so much richer with their antics and loving purrs; petting is mutually enjoyable. Sorry you couldn't work it out with your pets.

Is everyone ready for the new Site? I will be on vacation in New Mexico from Wednesday, Aug 8th until the end of the following week. If anyone has questions or problems relative to the move to the new server let me know today.

Everyone will have to register on the new site. You can do this now and practice boards are now available to become familar with the new look and feel. If you miss contact with me here seek help on the Book Nock Board. , "---The Book Nook: A Meeting Place for Readers-- Everyone is Welcome!" #16, 13 May 2007 7:33 am

Reading the good, bad and sad comments about cats gives me the opportunity to extol the virtues of owning brother and sister Ragdoll felines. They're just over two years and crave human companionship. Most of you cat lovers already know that the Ragdoll was bred in California in the early sixties, If you don't like your pets underfoot at all times, the Ragdoll isn't for you. These guys are a joy to my wife and me. Incidentally, I'm half way through the Reagan Diaries and find them a fascinating read.

Sibling cats are a good choice; supposedly there are fewer turf wars. We weren't able to adopt siblings so we have a bully and a victim, though she does turn the talbles at times. Aren't Rag Dolls among the larger domestic cats? Our female likes to droop her head over the side of the shelves on the cat tower.

I'm listening to Stephen Ambrose's audio book PERSONAL REFLECTIONS OF A HISTORIAN. Very good, he's so insightful.

Yes, Mrs. Sherlock, Ragdolls are rather heavy creatures. Our tom is about 25 lbs. and his sister, a svelt 12 lbs.

Never been a "cat" person, never had a cat in my house......always had a dog......my new DIL just arrived from Montana w/ her female "Busa" and we are getting along just fine. She's entertaining - we have a lot of windows in our house and a million birds and squirrels outside of them....never realized how high a cat could jump. She's good for my mental health, keeps me laughing and comes to cuddle w/ me when my DIL is not here.....i may become a "cat" person after all......

Ella, that Stephen Ambrose book sounds interesting, i'll have to look for it......jean

Any Non-fiction people who have not yet registered for access to the new site please click the following URL and regester, You http://www.seniornet.org/jsnet/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Scroll down the page to the Registration Link on the left margin. You may need a new on line Name as the new site does not allow spaces. In my case my previous on line name (Harold Arnold) was changed to HaroldArnold. I simply eliminated the space.

The non fiction board on the new site is active with over a dozen posts in progress. I hope to see all of you there..

ALERT!!!

We have only 8 more days on this site - Seniornet is closing the WHOLE SITE at the end of September.

Although it is sad to see familiar places go, changes are inevitable and challenging.

Harold gave everyone precise instructions above, so I won't repeat them but OH, GOLLY! we hope all of you will trot over to the new nonfiction site and post a message. Let us know that you found us.

I got Margaret MacMillan's book at the Library; looks absolutely wonderful. We may have to discuss that one instead of Aaron Burr - we have done anumber of discussions on those involved in the founding of our nation; however Burr was a bit different character than any of them.

This book's emphasis is on the momentous events surrounding the world in 1972; the complex history of two nations at a time when both were fearful of the powerful Soviet Union.

See you at the new nonfiction site!!!