Religion Related Books Export

As you can see, we have a new folder for discussing religious books, articles, authors--whatever we want talk about that pertains to our interest in the spiritual side of life.

For those who didn't see this note from Bruce Feiler about this discussion group, here you go:

Thank you for your generous note. I have been very moved by the reaction to WALKING THE BIBLE and now ABRAHAM, readers around the world sharing their thoughts, and sharing the book with friends. Thank you for being part of that. Especially in these trying times, I am honored that my work has served to bring people together. I'm so honored you have discussed both of the books, and trust you have the discussion guides that are on my site. Give my regards to your fellow students. You're pioneers of interfaith!

I wish you happy travels, and happy reading.

Bruce Feiler

P.S.As for visiting, the paperback of ABRAHAM is being released on 02/17/04 and I'll be traveling around the U.S., visiting over 20 cities. I hope to meet you.The details of the tour will be on my website soon.

I looked up his website and found that he indeed will be in Ohio but not in my hometown. His two places to visit here are Dayton and Cincinnati. I live between the those two cities, in Columbus.

And here is the note that I received from Persian with Mr Feilor's response to her email.

Ann - I tried posting this note from Bruce Feiler in the discussion, but it would not transmit, so I'm sending it to you. I sent him an earlier message asking if he was going to participate in the National Book Festival in Washington DC next Summer. He's obviously marching to his Publisher's schedule. The following is his response:

"Thanks for your lovely note. I'd love to make it to the WDC festival, but you should know that I'll be talking at the National Cathedral this spring. The details are on my website. Thanks for your support,

Bruce Feiler"

Thought it would be nice to put these two emails in this ongoing discussion instead of having them archived since he was nice enough to reply to our notes.

I am so happy to have this subject in the books selection.....am looking forward to see what we do next.....

Ann, Thanks so much for establishing this folder. I had hoped that you'd have enough "steam" to keep the discussion alive... I appreciate the time and effort it is for you.

I love C S Lewis's books... that said, I don't have a suggestion of a particular one to discuss... though Ginny did mention Screwtape Letters the other day...

At George's suggestion, I got What Went Wrong? by B Lewis... and also K Armstrong's A History of God...

Lou

'The Screwtape Letters' are excellent. Satirical and funny, but with some clear and sharp lessons. His Narnia series, tho' written to be enjoyed by children, are also allegories of Christianity.

Another thought... a good book on Comparative Religions would be very informative and give us a solid basis for further discussions. ..Babi

I'm looking forward to seeing what you are going to discuss here. These days, it is so important to increase understanding among all religions.

Ann, I too will be interested to see which book is selected for the next topic. I have made a few suggestions in the past. As you know, I choose not to participate in the Feiler discussion. I should also point out that Mahlia has suggested a few books that could be interesting.

I suggest that we allow at least a month to see what interests people and begin a discussion in April. There is so much to read about religions that I am sure we can select a book that would be of general interest.

Yes, I think that we can allow some time to pass and maybe with all of your ideas, we will find something that interests all of us. Perhaps, we could lightly compare the ideas of the books above or where we are when it comes to knowing the three faiths that the books focused on mostly strongly. Maybe look for articles about those faiths and see what we have to say about them. I am taking some down time,too, as I have other committments here on SN and elsewhere.

Remember, this is your discussion and we can talk just about anything that catches our eye. For instance, we could all take a moment and focus on something from the Feiler book, Walking the Bible, such as, did you agree with him that emotional feelings instead of mental knowledge is the most important way to approach our beliefs? Is this what mystics feel or think?

This remark caught my interest this morning, from the NYT:

"I hope and I pray that you will join me in setting an example for all of our brethren; that the truest path to follow, the only path, is that of respect and, most importantly, that of love for each other despite our differences."

I do like reading C.S. Lewis and I think my favorite is "Mere Christianity" with "The Screwtape Letters" next and "The Great Divorce" after that.

I also love "The Way of a Pilgrim" which is Russian Orthodox Spirituality, and centers around "how to pray", in which a pilgrim wanders and asks various people what it really means to "pray without ceasing", and learns a very important lesson.

And a book of our times is "Why God Won't Go Away" by Andrew Newberg, M.D., Eugene D'Aquili, M.D., Ph.D. and Vince Rause. It's a book of "neurotheology" an emerging discipline dedicated to understanding the complex relationship between spirituality and the brain. I did not understand all of it, but the parts I did get insight into were quite eye-opening.

Recently I also listened to a tape lecture series regarding "The Lord's Prayer" in the original Aramaic, and what it REALLY meant. I still say the Lord's Prayer in English, but learning it in Aramaic, which is a mystical derivative of Hebrew, was so incredibly expansive that I can't even begin to sing its praises. The very first word has so much depth of meaning that it blew me away. Ex: The first line is "Abwoon d'bwashmaya," and that first word, which is usually translated simply as "Our Father" breaks down into some profound meanings, as each letter in the Hebrew/Aramaic alphabet has mystical meanings beyond the surface. It breaks down as follows:

"A" - A letter never pronounced in Hebrew because it signifies the silence before creation, ALL that GOD IS before the beginning of human time.

"B" - Means "beginning of creation". The first word in the OT is "Beresheit" which translates as "In the beginning". So this letter stands for all that God created and the beginning of time as we know it.

"woo" - is symbolic for breath. Not only did God give the breath of life, but we breathe in and breathe out to stay alive. It means the life energy/creative energy that we have been given.

"n" - is symbolic for the present, the now, and how we use the creative energy in the now.

Those are approximate symbolic meanings, since mystic translations are difficult to pin down and often have a wide variety of connotations. But here's some idea of how the simplistic "Our Father" has so much more depth. And the whole prayer is like that. It is AMAZING!!! No wonder it is the most beautiful prayer ever given to mankind.

Mountain Rose - any one of the books you mentioned appeals to me. C.S. Lewis I've read but wouldn't mind re-reading at all. And the others, well, you've sure taken hold of my interest!

I'm wondering if anyone here has read either a book, or a series, called "Conversations with God" and if so, would you comment? Sorry, don't know the author or much else but it's been stuck in the back of my mind for a while and am wondering if I should pursue it.

Diane, I've read the first two Conversations with God, but didn't follow through with the third. Does that tell you my opinion? I'd be willing to send them to you if you'd like them??? It's been years since I read them so can't even begin to dreg up why we gave up on them...

Lou

I gave up on "conversations with God" after about three chapters....I too have read and like CS Lewis very much as he wandered in the wilderness so to speak for some time..... Mountain Rose....hello....I remember you from the political discussions and you and I were on the same wave length most of the time.....I don't go there anymore....much to much haranging and abusive talk there.....I am seeing you in the books discussion of the Terkel book....

Lou and Tigerlily - thanks for your comments. I guess you really answer my question as to whether or not I want to read them (and thank YOU, Lou for generously offering to send them to me!). There are enough other books awaiting my attention that I don't need to add any more unless I really am looking forward to them. Again, I appreciate your two cents.

It's so nice to see you. Yes, I know what you mean about some of the forums. I no longer have enough time or energy to waste on such. I don't mind passion for a cause or a subject, don't mind conviction and table pounding, even if I don't agree with it, but I dislike tunnel vision, not listening to another point of view, and rudeness and name-calling, and the majority group finding a "victim" with a minority view. Since I've returned to SN after a year's absence, I've chosen my discussions very carefully, and I leave when things get unpleasant.

There's another little book I treasure called "Monastic Practices" by Charles Cummings. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but I live by myself and this little book has been very helpful to me regarding ways in which to balance my life between work, play and spiritual seeking. It also has some lovely black and white illustrations before each chapter which, as an artist, I appreciate. My life follows absolutely no regular schedule, especially since I retired, and I needed to find a balance even though I may not have a schedule. This little book helped a lot. It gave me a general way to look at life and seek my own peculiar balance in it.

You titles are good ones and we are so happy to have you join this discussion. We are taking our time with this as we just came off a month's discussion of "Walking the Bible" by Bruce Feiler. If you are interested, you can read our comments on the book in the Archives.

I,too, have read "Conversations With God" after a recommendation from a young friend who was absolutely enthralled by the books and the author, whom she met. I found them uninteresting so quit early.

I forgot to mention your wonderful explanation of the first words of the Lord's Prayer in Hebrew or Aramaic, but thanks for putting it up. I think that I will print it out for a keepsake.

In mentioning authors of books we might read, I forgot to list one of my old favorites, Thomas Merton, a mystic for sure.

Do any of you think perhaps Jesus was a "mystic"? now that is really food for thought......I am currently reading "The Two Faces of Jesus"..

Tigerlily, who wrote the Two Faces of Jesus? I just finished The Changing Faces of Jesus by Getz Vaermes... and interesting description of Jesus by a Jewish scholar...

Lou

Thomas Merton's writings and I dearly love reading him. At the same time, much of what he says I find difficult to understand, and sometimes I even find myself getting very impatient with him because he's a monk with a monk's point of view, and I don't think he has a really good grasp about living in the common world of marriage and work and raising children. I know that's my failing more than it is his because the truths he speaks of should be there for all to grasp. But a monastery is deliberately structured for balance and to have time for prayer and God, whereas the outside world is NOT, nor is spirituality or contemplation respected in our secular world.

Ultimately I realize it's still up to each one of us to find our own depth in spirituality, no matter if we live in the outside world; but it seems so simple sometimes for him---when it isn't, and when he speaks as though it's easy, I would like to challenge him.

But I would love to discuss one of his books, since there's much in them that's over my head and I realize I need the help to a more complete understanding of what he is saying, and I do love his religious tolerance and his blending of zen with his own Catholicism.

a Jewish mystic, which is why I also believe that to understand the real groundwork of Christianity one has to have a good basic background in Judaism---not necessarily the Judaism of today, but that of the time in which Jesus lived. He was a Jew, his mother was a Jewess, and his whole community life was Jewish, with all the beliefs that entailed.

Over the years I've tried to get a handle on the Judaism of His time, the language, the symbolism of the OT, and sometimes I think Christianity has gone really "off" from his original meanings because of translations and what language does; first to Greek and then to Latin, etc. Since I also speak three languages I know how tricky it can be. When there isn't a good translation, a translator is forced to use one that's "close enough", but in doing that the original meaning and connotation is often lost, especially since Aramaic is a "mystical" language with very imprecise meanings, and English is a very "structured" language that leaves little room to maneuver. I think that very thing has caused endless intolerance that was not really there in the original Hebrew version and meanings.

The Jews also believe that the Bible needs to be interpreted on more than just one layer. There is the surface layer with which all of us are familiar, but there is also the moral layer, a mystical layer, and right offhand I forgot what some of the other layers are. But it was never meant, by them, to be taken literally. There are layers and layers of symbolism there, which is why it often sounds so contradictory and strange---but Jesus knew all that and spoke from that kind of basis, with layers of meaning.

Actually it's all quite fascinating when one dives into it and begins to see a little more---at least I think so, because the Bible on the surface never has made a whole lot of sense to me, but makes wonderful sense when one understands more than that surface level with its choppy waves.

Whoops! Got the name of the book wrong.....The Meaning of Jesus, two visions by Marcus J. Borg and N. T. Wright.......really thought provoking and most interesting......Written from two different viewpoints by two scholars...........

I would consider Mohammed a mystic also. He went to the desert and God spoke to him and from that the Muslims have the Quaran, their Bible which quotes the OT frequently.

another interesting book. I just love to read about people or situations from various points of view.

Heard a few snippets of what sounds like a fascinating book discussed on C-Span over the weekend and was sorry I couldn't stick around for all of it. The author is a Muslim and a Canadian (I'll look up her name later) but the title of the book is "The Trouble with Islam."

One of her premises is that Muslims are not sticking to the tenets of the Koran - many questions from the audience were on target; particularly the problems in France at the moment. I'll be back with a review of the book and the author.

Here we go: The Trouble with Islam: Why I Quarrel with my Faith by Irshad Manji

One review:

"In blunt, provocative, and deeply personal terms, Irshad Manji unearths the troubling cornerstones of mainstream Islam today: tribal insularity, deep-seated anti-Semitism, and an uncritical acceptance of the Koran as the final, and therefore superior, manifesto of God. In this open letter to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, Manji asks arresting questions. "Who is the real colonizer of Muslims - America or Arabia? Why are we all being held hostage by what's happening between the Palestinians and the Israelis? Why are we squandering the talents of women, fully half of God's creation? What's our excuse for reading the Koran literally when it's so contradictory and ambiguous? Is that a heart attack you're having? Make it fast. Because if more of us don't speak out against the imperialists within Islam, these guys will walk away with the show." Manji offers a practical vision of how the United States and its allies can help Muslims undertake a reformation that empowers women, promotes respect for religious minorities, and fosters a competition of ideas. Her vision revives Islam's lost tradition of independent thinking. This book will inspire struggling Muslims worldwide to revisit the foundations of their faith. It will also compel non-Muslims to start posing the important questions without fear of being deemed "racists."

In more ways than one, The Trouble with Islam is a clarion call for a fatwa-free future."

More, of course, on the site above.

Ella

That sounds like a fascinating book. I think I will see if the library has it and take a look through it.

Ella

I have reserved a book at the library but am 7th on the list and the system owns 17!! It must be a very interesting book and I look forward to reading it.

and I shall try and get it from the library also. The summary is pretty much what I see in modern-day Islam. It was once one of the most tolerant of religious beliefs, and I feel has been kidnapped by extremists today, which is very sad. I'm so glad to see a Muslim writer addressing these very issues and can't wait to get into this book.

"Ordinary People as Monks and Mystics" by Marsha Sinetar. It's not your usual religious book because it doesn't subscribe to any one religion, but instead it speaks about the search for spirituality, especially as we get older.

In fact, that book had such an impact on me personally that I found myself on every single page, and after I had read it I went about changing everything about my life, including leaving Southern California and my husband who refused to budge, and moving to Northern California into the peaceful and uncrowded countryside. I simplified my life to bare bones and spent my days working part-time and painting the rest of the time. Now I've retired and can paint all I want. I've read the book several times since then and find new things in it all the time, which I've highlighted in various colors so it's pages have become a rainbow where I can see what impacted me and when.

Do any of you mark up your books? I tend to mark them up the second time around only, after I've read it once to see if it's worthwhile to read it again. But I still have guilt about doing that (exept with the above book, where there was no guilt at all). Usually I use post-it notes and come back to what I felt was important, and sometimes, if I have the time, I actually write those points out and keep them in a book log.

I am interested in finding the book that Mountain Rose has mentioned and the one about Jesus, the mystic that Lou2 or Tigerlily spoke about. All sound worthwhile.

:I have just started a book by Thich Nhat Hanh titled "no death, no fear" subtitled "Comforting Wisdom for Life". It seems way beyond my ken but on the first few pages he quotes different aspects of Buddhism and here is one from "Mindfulness Training" about freedom,

Aware of the suffering created by fanaticism and intolerance, we are determined not to be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory or ideology, even Buddhist ones. Buddhist teachings are guiding means to help us learn to look deeply and to develop our understanding and compassion. They are not doctrines to fight, kill or die for.

Hanh goes on to say, "This is a practice to help free us from the tendency to be dogmatic. Our world suffers so much from dogmatic attitudes. The first Buddhist mindfulness training is important to help us remain free people. Freedom is above all else freedom from our own notions and concepts. If we ge caught in our notions and concepts, we can make ourselves suffer and we can also make those we love suffer."

I find this book so timely pertaining to the world's situations and religions today. It is hard to grasp but I hope to keep reading a bit each day to see if I can better understand Hahn. I have used his Plum Village Meditation tapes for helping me meditate and to relieve pain. They have been very helpful.

On marking up my books, I do that when I am using the book for a discussion. And, for my own uses,too. Its a baaaaaaaad habit, if one intends to be able to do the trading that I have always done at the used bookstores.

Happy Valentine's Day

For the information of those in the Baltimore Washington area, I see that Charles Kimball will be lecturing at Goucher college in April. Go to this site for information.

http://www.icjs.org/events/index.html#april

GEORGE - thanks for the heads-up. We may be able to get to Kimball's lecture.

Thanks for the notice about Kimball, George.

Lucky you, Mahlia, to be able to attend.

We are all saddened today with the death of our dear friend, Lorrie Gorg. But we are also sure that she is in a better place. She was beloved here on SN.

ANN - I just read Joan's email about Lorie's passing. It's a lovely gesture for SN to collect rememberances to share at her service. Although I did not know Lorie, my condolences to those SN folks who claimed her as their friend.

I just took a long look at the book that you mentioned "Ordinary People as Monks and Mystics" plus two others by the same author. Although they are all good, they seem to be aimed at self help and I am not sure if anyone here would want to discuss them at length. Thanks for the suggestion.

Some of you may be interested in this article on Anti Semitism in Europe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/20/international/europe/20ANTI.html

Is anyone planning to see Mel Gibson's film "The Last Hours of Jesus?" I noticed that in connection with the film being shown in the metropolitan Washington DC area, several religious organizations have purchased blocks of tickets to assure interested individuals will be able to watch the film. There will also be "study and discussion booklets" available in theatre lobbies for viewers who wish to compare their opinions after viewing the film. Although the film is purported to be following a very close rendering from the New Testament, there certainly seems to be plenty of opportunity - at least in the few segments that have been aired so far - for misunderstanding.

If it comes to my area you can bet I will watch it........

I watched the Diane Sawyer interview with Mel Gibson and found him a deeply religious person with an extremely conservative point of view. He is not anti semitic. However, the film, at least from the clips that I have seen, may cause an increase in anti Semitism. After all, it was material in the four gospels that led to anti Semitism in Europe for the last two thousand years. Whether this new film will resurrect the charges that the Jews killed Christ, is hard to ascertain. That the film will be shown around the world to millions of people goes without saying. One cannot predict the effect the film will have on religious fanatics.

Gibson, I think having not seen the film, stresses the suffering of Christ and His passion. Whether people will see this as a means to their own salvation or as a source of blame is the real question. Jesus, as I understand his life, was a Jew who preached against the complicity of the religious leaders in Israel who had succumbed to Roman influence. This was not the first time in the history of the Jewish people that religious leaders had in fact led the people astray. The prophets strove valiantly to urge the people to return to fundamental Judaism and reject the words of their current religious leaders. Jesus was another in this line of prophets and what he preached was IMO very apt for the time in which he lived. He did not reject Judaism, which Mr. Gibson pointed out.

"I hope and I pray that you will join me in setting an example for all of our brethren; that the truest path to follow, the only path, is that of respect and, most importantly, that of love for each other despite our differences."

This is a Mel Gibson interview quote about his making of the film. I would be interested in watching it but have no idea where its being shown. We saw quite a long clip of it but didn't stay aware of the scheduling.

Just had an idea! Maybe we could all try to watch it and then come in here and discuss it for awhile.

I understand that the film will open at theatres across the country on Ash Wednesday. Perhaps there will be a schedule in your local newspaper.

Ahh, yes, the movie opened here today. Wonder how it will do. I heard about a new book today. Something about Jesus the Carpenter??? Didn't someone mention it earlier here.

I just received an email from the library and the book that I reserved, about Islam, has arrived. I am looking forward to reading it. This is the book that Ella brought here for our consideration.

I'd be interested to know the title and author.

Persian

The title is "The Trouble With Islam" by Irshad Manji.

Looks like this new site for discussing religious books or just religious beliefs is not doing well. Haven't seen too many people in here lately.

Ann, I just haven't been sure what to post... I've been reading religious books like crazy... guess I'm waiting for the next title to be announced to see if I'm interested in reading and discussing it. I check in here every day to see what's been posted.

Persian, I've been looking for the Waddy book and haven't had any luck... do you have another suggestion for me, for introduction to Islam? Thanks...

Lou

I fly through here every day when I can so don't get discouraged as we are here.

LOU - I'll be happy to offer some suggestions about titles to check. Which aspect of Islam interests you?

ANN - I appreciate your efforts in this discussion site. One idea for continuing here - with/without a new title - would be an opportunity for us to discuss religion WITHOUT speaking from our own religious perspectives. That may sound convoluted, but it has worked well in seminars for me. The cultural aspects of religion are always intersting, especially to those of other backgrounds. When one feels secure in the discussion format, one is apt to "open up" with their own ideas, questions, thoughts. This is a "secure" site, visited by friends who are intelligent, well read and curious about the world.

If you are inclined to pursue this avenue, we might begin with questions which we would have asked the authors - Bruice Feiler or Charles Kimball - if their schedules had allowed them to visit. Sharing the questions with each other would be an interesting point to begin a new discussion, while we await the selection of the next title.

OR Lou (or anyone else) might pose a question that comes to mind about Islam; about Judaism or Christianity; or any of the other major world religions. Let's see how much we really know and care to share.

There is a book I've just begun hearing about - "Reading Lolita in Tehran" - about a university professor in Iran gathering a small group of students in her home to discuss forbidden books of Western literature. There are some interesting reviews in amazon.com which I've not had time to thoroughly read, but enough to feel a strong pull to read this book. Does anyone else know anything of the book?

But I also very much like Mahlia's idea of a discussion of world religions - that could lead to some outstanding discussions.

I too read books on religions and spiritual matters on a regular basis.....this is one of my favorite book sites....Last night in my sleep I was listening to a young woman interviewed who has written a new book on the Islamic faith and maintains that it has been "high-jacked" by the radicals in the Islamic faith......can I remember the title tonight.....no.....sounded very interesting....maybe it will come to me.......

I love this discussion and have went as far as I know to so am still open minded to all others that I may learn how and why things are the way they are as to all these religious wars , That is one of the reasons I like it here.

The Iranian university professor who holds small gatherings in her home to introduce students to opportunities they would otherwise not have - like reading about Lolita - is one of many women throughout the more restrained Islamic world who, because of their dedication to education and hopes for the younger female generation , take great risks to encourage their students and female friends and relatives.

The female Iraqi Ambassador-designate in Washington DC spoke recently about how the responsibility of the younger generation of Iraqi women is "up to us" - the older women in society. And she could have been speaking for Iranians or Afghan women, too.

Prior to the 1979 Iranian revolution, there was a vibrant collection of Iranian female educators who having received their own university training in the West were working hard to share that learning experience with their younger students. And other professional women, like the stellar Iranian attorney, who has worked her whole life for "human rights, civil rights" for Iranian women (and men, too)and was recently recognized with a Nobel prize.

So the work goes on - world-wide - as Western women ecnourage and support the efforts of those in the less open societies, and continue to speak out forcefully about the male discrimination towards women which is still all too prevalent - even among the educated.

The title of that book is "The Trouble With Islam" by Irshad Manji and is the book that just arrived for me at the library. I pick it up today.

Persian

What kind of questions fill your requirements in a class?? Questions about a faiths beliefs, practices or the why of these things?? For instance, I can never remember why a Muslim woman has to cover her hair and sometimes her face and sometimes her whole body. I know that women used to don a head covering for attending Mass in a Catholic church out of respect. Never could figure out why that meant respect but the nuns said so, so we did it. There are some things that don't deserve our time questioning and others that do. Now everyone goes to church as casually dressed as possible and at festival time, when many people want to attend church but have to work at the annual festival, they often are there in shorts and tank tops. Personally, I have no problem with this but many others do. Hey, those well endowed young things should throw a blouse over that tanktop just so I don't feel bad about my underendowed shape. Right??? Hahahaha!

I think that we could all bring many things to this site to discuss without having a particular book in our header. What say all of you???

Ann....thanks for the title of the book...it sounded so interesting and I am reserving it today.....I think we can have good discussions here without a book also......A book from time to time though can kind of stimulate our thinking don't you agree?

What kind of questions fill your requirements in a class?

ANN - it depends on the focus of the class. It could be a seminar where broad discussion is encouraged on a limited number of questions (i.e., 3 major questions covering the core of the topic)and arguments are designed to present different aspects of the topic or the background from which one speaks. Or the class could be a simple lecture, where the speaker offers either broad or detailed comments on the topic, answers a few questions, but mainly controls the flow of discussion. Or it could be the type of class where the instructor describes some questions for the class to consider and then asks participants to choose the questions they would like to have answered (either by the Instructor or other participants). In the latter case, the Isntructor usually has a marginal role.

With mature, educated participants, like the SN posters here, my suggestion is that there should be a balanced give/take of questions and answers. Requests for clarification or statements of differences of opinion can be respected without intimidation, as might be the case with a younger, less well read audience.

Why do Muslim women wear head scarfs, veil their faces and/or cover their entire bodies?" Because Islam teaches women to be modest about their bodies, not showing off their "attributes" - beautiful faces, long luxuriant hair, shapely bodies, delicate hands or shapely bosoms - other than in their own homes with members of the immediate families. Yet even in their own homes, Muslim women tend to dress modestly - long sleeves, long skirts, highly buttoned blouses or jackets. And lots of room; no tight clothing.

A woman's body is not for "public view" although the West thinks entirely the opposite. I've sat in examining rooms with traditional Muslim women who do not mind in the least having a GYN exam, as long as they are NOT asked to uncover their heads or faces. And I've sat alongside rural Afghan women who are not allowed to talk to or be examined by a dr., but must communicate through their husbands, brothers and sons.

Head Scarfs: For some Muslim women, head scarfs (worn like a bandana, tied under the chin)are a sign of their respect for their modesty in public, which is a central teaching in Muslim families. A woman's hair is considered her "crowning glory." Depending on tradition, the scarves can also be worn tied in the back at the neckline, as is the custom of the Muslim Chechen women.

Full head covering: Another type of head scarf is the style worn by Middle Eastern and Asian Muslim women, as well as those in Western Europe and the USA, which is draped across the head, shoulders and chest and pinned tightly under the chin and once or twice more down the front. The material completely covers the hairline, front and back of the neck, shoulders and chest. Since the material is pinned tightly, the womens' hands are left free.

Full body covering with face completely covered: This is the type of covering that is the custom in Afghanistan, where it is called a Burqa. It's like wearing a tent (I'm NOT kidding!)with a small 2 or 3 inch grid across the eyes. It is suffocating to wear and dangerous because the wearer does not have clear vision and absolutely no peripheral vision.

Full body covering by a large piece of BLACK fabric, which is held closely against the throat or lower portion of the face by one hand. This is common in Iran. It is unwieldly and means that one hand is always used to keep a tight grip on the material around the face. The drape can be adjusted to cover the face except for one eye (as is the custom among many older women); held tightly across the lower face (covering the mouth and nose - which makes breathing difficult); or drawn up to the bridge of the nose, so only the eyes are visible.

I have started the book and this young woman is angry, outspoken and maybe right! Its an easy read so far. Do get it. And, yes, a book once in awhile would be nice but for now, an easy going give and take about our questions of different faiths sounds good also.

Mahlia

I like the idea of discussing from the premise of two or three questions that each of us can consider--one at a time. Would you be a willing participant?

Absolutely!

Where do we start here? And how does one think of a question that will cover an interesting topic? What topic will bring good responses?? I am deep into this new book about Islam and am finding it very close to many of us who question, or questioned our faith. Maybe a good place to start? With Islam??

By the by, thanks for all the info on the wearing of head coverings by the Islamic women. Seems very close to the old practice in the Catholic churches of women covering their heads. Not the whole body. In Elaine Scholera's book about Iran, she keeps an old trench coat on hand for covering herself and nearly suffocates. I just can't imagine having to wear a body covering in the heat, let alone a head covering. Doesn't it amaze you that women let themselves be ordered around and only allowed to talk when spoken to by a man? My god, I'd be in jail or wherever they put those 'fallen' ladies.

I see that this discussion may be up and running again. One question that seems particularly appropriate now lies in the interpretation of early Christian writing. I say this because of the release of the Gibson movie and also because I do not think that Christians in general understand how the New Testament came to be written, the life of the writers and the people around them, and the influence of Rome on early Christianity. The origins of anti semitism begin with these writings. I found this article about Mary quite interesting. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/28/opinion/28KRIS.html?hp

That's quite an article and brings up many topics--Mary Magdalene-the place of women in the church hierarchy or lack thereof, Jesus reactions to Mary, and now Junia, not Junius. Most interesting! I have a new title here but have not had time to read it, "Mary Called Magdalen" by Margaret George. Maybe if I stay late at night, I could read it along with the two others that I am discussing here on SN. There is a reader's guide and an interview of the author. I must take some time to peruse this book later in the season.

In the book, "The Trouble With Islam" one of the points mentioned concerns the fact that many Muslim's are unaware that "Islam is a gift of the Jews". Hmmm. Then the author goes on to connect the dots of Abraham, the Jewish faith, Moses, Jesus, Christianity, Mohammed and Islam. Just what we have read here in the three books mentioned in our header.

"Mary Called Magdalen" by Margaret George...

is a fictional account of Mary's life. It's a good read.

I don't have the new K King Gospel of Mary Magdalen, but do have another one, of course, can't remember the author... it's on the stack and just waiting for me to catch up with it...

George, in my recent reading I have been amazed at some of the early writings... hesitate to say "Christian" writings... I thought modern Christianity was diverse... hey, we don't know what diverse means!! LOL I came to this "trail" of mine seeking... and still seeking... but learning, learning, learning all along the way... Anywho, I understand your concerns... amazing how some of these folks acted and reacted... if their writings are indictive of what they believed...

Lou

May I suggest rather than focus on one particular religion (especially without a named title right now), that you offer questions which could apply to "parallel paths." In that mode, posters from varied religious backgrounds could address a question from their own experiences (personal and religious teachings), as well as invite others to do the same.

GEORGE makes a very good point about getting a better grasp on the societal issues surrounding the early Christian writers and the enormous influence of Rome. In a contemporary sense, think of how surprisingly influential (politically and religiously) the current Grand Ayatollah Sistani has been in Iraq and how his remarks have stymied the American efforts to rebuild that country. To an American, "one voice" should not bring down a country or halt its rebuilding, but not every society functions like the USA.

There are lots of ripe discussion points for us to explore. It's just up to the posters to step up and let 'er rip.

I don't mean to negate your suggestion about undertaking Islam as the first topic, but it may make more logistical sense to "start from the beginning" with a better understanding of Judaism and why the first Christians were Jews.

Then, understanding the timing of the social and political forces (read personal control and power)in which the Jewish leader Caiphas functioned, also presents an opportunity to understand more fully the real threat that he felt from Jesus - NOT to Jews overall, but to Caiphas himself, and why he was so insistent on Jesus being put to death.

Your comment that in THE TROUBLE WITH ISLAM, the author mentions that "Muslims do not understand why Islam is a gift from Jews" - would be an excellent point in better understanding that in ANY religious segment of society (whether in the historical periods of the Middle East or contemporary Western culture), there are ignorant people. Ignorant of their own ethic/religious culture, their society, etc. Not everyone is a scholar; not everyone has access to edcuation; not everyone discusses ancient history in their homes. Scholars and the well educated individuals in society can be expected to have at least a general idea of some of the historical periods, whereas those who were not lucky enough to be educated will not. (Think of the thousands of rural poor in Mexico who do not have birth certificates for their children -- and no way to obtain them when faced with the many layers of government disdain for creative thinking) - and thus know firsthand that their children (and perhaps continued generations) will remain uneducated. It's heart-breakining what ignorance can cause a society to become.

Another possible point of discussion (which interests me personally) is why Jesus has historically been depicted with an Anglo-Saxon appearance, rather than the natural Semitic features he must surely have had. This depiction continues in Mel Gibson's choice of the actor portraying Jesus in his film.

The British actor Richard Molina (in the film Not Without My Daughter) and Ben Kingsley (in the recent film House of Sand and Fog)are cast as Iranian men. They bring to their work the true appearance of Iranian men in body language and facial expression, as well as emotional mannerisms (especially the volatile tempers).

Although I don't plan to view the film, it will be interesting to hear from someone who has whether the actor in the role of Jesus appears ethnically accurate. Perhaps this point might be too tightly focused in this discussion, but it is an issue I have always wondered about.

GEORGE - thanks for posting Kristoff's NYT's article for us. It's a keeper and offers much for thought, not only in the historical sense, but in our contemporary times as we witness many changes for women in society.

Just a quick stop here to leave an interesting link to an NYT article: Iraq Decides on Jewish Citizens"

There is much to discuss pertaining to the changed role of women during the era before Abraham when the Greeks had their women Goddesses who filled many different roles, Native American cultures were based on a system that honored women, and the Celtic cultures of the British isles had many tales of women warriors and leaders. What happened there? According to many books written since 1950, women and men lived in the Fertile Crescent in Matriarchal tribes, were agrarians and vegetarians, didn't know how to hunt and therefore were not prone to warring. Then the Patriarchal tribes from the steppes of Europe invaded and the matriarchal tribes began to change.

I am particularly upset at the release and popularity of Mel Gibson's movie, which I have not seen. However, this article in today's NYTimes explains my fears quite well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/01/opinion/01SAFI.html?hp

While I have not finished this book and do not recommend it for discussion, I am finding Unsettled by Melvin Konner most interesting. It is an anthropology of the Jews - a history of the Jewish people written from a perspective that I have not seen before. You can find out more about the book on line at B and N or Amazon.

Safire's NYT's article certainly explains clearly why Gibson's film will continue to stoke the fires of misunderstanding about the role of the Jews in the persecution and death of Jesus. As we well know, the enormity of this misunderstanding has resulted in continued anti-semitic behavior through the centuries and the film will certainly be the basis for more in years to come. Individuals who have seen the film, yet state that they did not sense it to be anti-semitic, must be far removed from understanding the global implications.

While we have been inundated in the USA with Gibson's pre-release marketing of the film, a truly heartbreaking decision has been made on the other side of the world by the Iraqi Governing Council. In their often contentious deliberations about designing an "inclusive" Constitution for the rebuilding of Iraq, the members decided a few days ago NOT to allow Iraqi Jews, who fled persecution in their homeland during Sadaam Hussein's rule, to return and/or to reclaim their historical land and properties.

The Iraqi Jews maintained a strong historical presence and contributed significantly to the intellectual and economic strength of the country for many centuries, following their release from captivity in Babylon by the then Persian ruler Cyrus. The Council's decision is truly heartbreaking! While the Council has had to deal with the rigid demands of the Kurds (a non-Arab people in the Northern region) to maintain their ancient homeland and reclaim areas assigned to Arabs in recent years, they have totally refused to consider the equally rightful claims by Jewish Iraqis in the disapora. Iraqi Jews as far away as China have been eagerly awaiting the outcome and could have made significant contributions to the rebuilding efforts in Iraq. I'm still hopeful that there will be a reconsideration of this decision, but at the moment, it stands.

What a loss, Persian... Thanks for bringing that to our attention, I hadn't hear it.

Would someone define Arab for me? When I finished read Friedman's from Beirut to Jerusalem I was discussing it at the table one day and when the family ask questions, I realized I have no sensible definition... How do we use this term? I don't get the sense of simply "one from Arabia" when was the dictionary definition...

Lou

I forgot to insert the link from the NYT article which prompted my comments in post 71. Here 'tis:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/28/international/middleeast/28CONS.html?th

LOU - Arabs are the semitic people descended from Abraham's eldest son, Ishmael, whose mother was Hagar, the Egyptian serving woman to Abraham's wife, Sarah. When Sarah was unable to bear children, she "gave Hagar to Abraham as a concubine" - customary in those ancient times - so that he would have descendents. Later, after God blessed Sarah and Abraham with their own son, Sarah became jealous of Ishmael and insisted that Abraham banish he and his mother, Hagar. Abraham did so, sending his son and mother into the desert. God blessed them in their desperation for water by assuring Hagar that there would be water neaerby. Thus, the well of Zam Zam (which still exists today outside of the Holy City of Mecca in Saudi Arabia) appeared to Hagar and she was able to quench her thirst and that of her son.

According to Jewish and Christian belief, God's Covenant with Abraham was for the Jews, descendents of his through his younger son with Sarah, NOT with the Arabs from the line of Ishmael. However, Muslims believe that God did not abandon Ishmael and their centuries long claim to rightful residency in Palestine/Israel is based on this belief.

That's the article link that I suggested last week. Its a sad commentary on just more of the anti-Semetism that seems to be returning all over the world. The article that George suggested about the feelings against the Jews in France just reinforce this sad outcome.

There was a really inflamatory piece on 60 Minutes last night about the N.Koreans using "Diary of Anne Frank" to incite hatred toward the US. The children referred to us as being war-mongers and Nazis. The cousin of Anne Frank sold the rights to her story to N. Korea for $2000 and now he is horrified to the way her story is being used.

I wonder how naieve (or just ignorant) the cousin is to not have anticipated that the rights to this story would be used for negative propaganda about the West (especially the USA) by the North Koreans.

On the other hand, one must remember America's role in the horrors of Hiroshima, especially as we listen to Washington's line about finding WMD in Iraq.

Last night, we watched an hour long program on PBS telling about the above. I always knew that HItler thought of the German race as the purist Aryan race, but I did not know that in 1933? he assigned a huge group of archeaologists and university professors to find these things and prove that Germany was descended from the Aryans that invaded Iran. How is it that in this world today that this so important? How do people become so wrapped up in their "better than others" worries, that they don't see the rest of a suffering world? Heinrich Himmler was in charge of all this and thought that he was the reincarnation of Heinrich the First who commissioned the first Reich. I had no idea that Hitler wanted to find the Holy Grail and prove that it was not connected to Judeo-Christian beliefs but to Germanic beliefs and religion.

Some may be interested in the recent posts about the Passion in the Studs Terkel discussion.

Having been raised a Catholic, I pretty much had my fill of reenactments of biblical times, including the Passion so wil not attend this newest version. I did read the column that you gave us the link to and was disgusted with the columnist's comments on the movie. And sorry, too, that we have to go over and over the story and blame someone. To me it makes the Christians of today as bad as the members of Islam who hate so many for past sins. As I said to my husband, the only reasons that I can see for Mel Gibson to have made this movie was :1. He could and 2. It will make him a lot of money. The pre-movie controversy seemed contrived also, just a ploy for Gibson to use to attract more attention to his movie.

Ann, I am not sure which article made you disgusted (at the columnist). I would think that you would agree with the comments of Safire which is the one I believe I posted.

NO.NO! I reread my comment and realized what that said and meant to come back in and say that I was not disgusted with Safire. I was disgusted with the movie and its contents.

While Gibson's film has fired feelings both pro and con in the USA, and rememberances of Oberamergau are brought to the front, it is interesting to note that another "passion" is being remembered at the same time on the other side of the world, resulting in much more tragedy in the past few days.

This is the time of Ashura for the Shia branch of Islam, which is an annual rememberance of 10 days of mourning in recognition of the death and martyrdom of Hussein, the prophet Muhammad's grandson, and his followers in 680 A.D. in Karbala. Just as Gibson's film has stirred up intense feelings of rememberance of Jesus's death (and resurrection, although that aspect is given little time in the film)in the USA, the recent attacks in Baghdad and Karbala against Shi'ites participating in the Ashura commemoration have created even more of a separation among Muslims. Whereas, Shi'ites and the traditionally orthodox Sunis (of which the Saudi Wahhabis are the MOST orthodox)have been at odds with each other for centuries over what is "acceptable" and "correct" within Islam, the recent spate of vicious bombings and personal attacks have escalated the problems among Iraqis.

However, there is a glimmer of light in all the tragedy of the past weeks. It was reported last night by Jim Hoagland in the Washington Post that the Iraqi Governing Council finally re-thought their initial refusal to allow Iraqi Jews back into the country to reclaim their ancestral properties and their national citizenship. Now those in the disapora, who fled Sadaam's regime, will indeed be able to return to their homeland as acknowledged citizens. This is a BIG deal, and one which lightens the heart a bit!

Persian, thanks so much for the update... yes, you are right, it does lighten the heart... It's good to see something postive come out of that beleagured country now. My heart aches for the Iraqians.

Lou

Yes, it does sound good but I foresee many problems as to who owns what when the Jews are allowed to return. I think that if they are allowed to come back, they would have to be very careful about what they claimed ownership of. Iraq could end up with the same problems that Irael and Palenstine have.

The Iraqi Jews in the diaspora are well awre of the potential problems of their returning. Some may choose not to and that's OK. They can still support the reconstruction of Iraq in others ways. But those who do choose to return will have not only the issues of their initial return, but claiming land and properties that may have already changed hands several times. Case in point: some of the areas which the non-Arab Kurds in the North are fighting to reclaim were deeded to Iraqi Arabs, when Sadaam tried to reduce the numbers of Kurds. Now those Arabs who were "resettled" must be considered if the they happen to be on land or residing in properties which historically belonged to Iraqi Jews.

Of course, there will be problems - when have there NOT been problems in the Middle East! - but the people involved, many of whom can trace their heritage back to Biblical times, are clever and as Iraqis, they will know how to deal with the problematic areas.

Now that some of the military and police contingents have had up-to-date training (compliments of your tax dollars), my sense is "let Iraqis deal with Iraqis." They can certainly ask for guidance when needed, but overall - especially in the cultural climate of Iraq which is difficult for Americans to understand well - it is more effective for the Iraqis to deal with each other.

some of the same problems that West Germans had when Germany was reunified, having to claim properties that once belonged to them in the East Zone. So there is a precedent and even though resolution of that is still in progress, and I'm sure much can be learned from that experience.

In fact, we have that precedent all over the world, including right here in the U.S.A. when the Japanese were dispossessed and placed into camps. The Japanese at that time owned much of the aerable land on the West Coast, which others wanted and subsequently got. Very little of that was ever returned to the Japanese.

It seems that is just how the world works when people get displaced or move en masse. Hopefully the Jews will have their rights restored in Iraq, and that Iraq will become a country of at least some religious tolerance. I think it will be long trail to sort it all out.

A poster left this link in another discussion: Building Bridges to Islam

According to the page info at this site on Elderhostel, this program will be offered across the country. This is exciting!

Have any of you read the book "Unsettled".....I forget the author but it is a kind of history of the Jewish people......

Could the author of Unsettled be Melvin Konner by chance? I have Not read it tho.

ANN - indeed the news about the Elderhostel Building Bridges to Islam program is exciting. I looked in the Elderhostel discussion, but didn't see any mention of the program. Could you post the link in that discussion, too? Many thanks. I'm going to share the info. with some friends and colleagues in my area and see if CAIR has programs planned in our metropolitan Washington DC locale. There are certainly plenty of organizations in this area that could co-sponsor such a program with CAIR.

I did post that link in the Elderhosteling folder but someone had already done so.

It would seem to me that most of our posters here would prefer to discuss a book??? If so, please say. But if you prefer to discuss other religious happenings and articles from news sources and their impact on our society or the world, also please say so.

Yes Ginger , Melvin Konner is the author....I have asked my library to obtain this book as I imagine it to be very informative....how the Jewish people got where they are today....My education in ancient history is nil I am afraid......Persian it isn't necessarily that I need to discuss a book it is that the book spurs my thinking process if that makes any sense.......

I am about half way through Unsettled by Melvin Konner, a book I think I referred to in an earlier post #70. It is an anthropological view of Jewish history and is most interesting. I do not recommend it for discussion here as I think it will probably have a limited audience. Nevertheless, it is a very good book.

GEORGE - on the other hand, Konner's book may be very interesting to particiapnts here who do not have a solid background in understanding Jewish history. And it might encourage discussion of a comparative nature about the historical place in history of Jews and Christians at a time when the Gibson film is affecting so many viewers. I'm always amazed that there is so little focus on Jesus as a Jew! Yet Konner's work does NOT have to be considered in a religious context; it's simply a good, detailed description of Jewish history, which is, unfortunately, often not well understood by non-Jews.

ANN - RE your #91: couldn't we do both?

Georghd and Persian.....thanks for the heads up on this book...I am looking forward to reading it.....I have been doing a lot of reading about historical Jesus and yes indeed, of course, he was completely Jewish in every way..... I know that when I was small and even as a young adult it never entered my mind that he was Jewish....strange isn' it? Of course the art work and artists renditions of what Jesus looked like were not any help.... I expect he was shorter of stature and very possibly darker of complexion than he is generally thought in some circles...... Also much more radical and concerned with social justice as we call it today......but I am off the subject......

I received this in an email this morning and thought that you might find it of interest. I do not know the author.

Dear Friends,

I have just returned from seeing Gibson's, movie "The Passion of the Christ." I wanted to share my opinions with you, if you chose to read them. I viewed this film as a Jew and a psychiatrist, along with about 30 other Jews. I wished to see it in order to evaluate it for myself in the midst of the enormous controversy surrounding it, and various claims that it was either benign or malignant in its depictions of the Jews. In viewing the media and the buzz all over the Internet about this movie, I think this is the single most controversial and publicized film of my lifetime. Therefore, I feel compelled to weigh in with my opinion to some of my own correspondents.

It was the unanimous opinion of all 30 Jews in attendance, including myself, that any journalist, critic, or clergy person who pronounced this film "benign" for the Jews must have seen a different version than is currently being screened in theaters. Despite being very open going into it, and hopeful, I am sad to report that despite other comments, I find this movie the most potentially disastrous development for Jewish public relations that I have personally encountered in my lifetime, outside of recent events in Israel.

In its flagrant violation of almost every guideline the Vatican has issued regarding how the Passion story should be depicted, the Jewish people and its leadership are shown clearly and without ambiguity to be the instigators of the betrayal and horrible torture of Jesus--depicted with extreme gruesomeness. In fact, the Jewish leadership, backed by huge masses of the Jewish people, are shown in the most explicit way to put pressure on Pontius Pilate to not just kill Jesus but to subject him to the tortures that would become an essential and detailed part of his martyrdom in history. The portrayal of the guilt of the Jewish people and their leadership is not subtle, and its difficult "spin doctor" it away. As an audience member, I found myself having very negative feelings towards the Jews who are shown to recruit the preexisting sadism of the Romans to make an example of a prophet who was subverting the Jewish status quo by claiming to be the Messiah.

Many of you know that I have been lecturing for several years about how Hollywood depicts psychiatrists. I became interested in this because, the primary instrument of public education today is the movies, and most of what people know about who psychiatrists are and what they do is from the cinema. In this case, though the Bible may be the most read book in the world, the public now gets its education far more from the movies than even the Bible. Movies now are to public education, what stained-glass windows and architrave carvings were for the masses attending Cathedrals in the Middle Ages--the public educator of the masses.

More importantly, movies are so powerful, so psychologically arousing, so present, that the facts they teach may actually be less important than the emotional impressions they leave behind. Long after the factual aspects of a movie plot fade from memory, the emotional residue persists, leaving an "aftertaste" in the unconscious which is far more instrumental in forming opinions, in my professional experience, than rational arguments or facts.

This is why "The Passion" is a disaster for the Jews. The FEELING one gets for the Jews in the film is horribly negative, indeed evil. There are actually many images of Satan in the movie, moving amongst the masses of jeering Jewish people, leaving a powerful impressionistic image associating Jews with evil. Their role in precipitating, facilitating and even applauding the suffering of Jesus is blasted into the viewer through every aspect of the movie's craft: the plot, the music, the photography, expressions on the faces of the Cohanim (the high priests). At the end, there is an earthquake rupturing the Jewish Temple, and the high priest is in terror. It doesn't take sophisticated powers of abstraction to see this scene as divine punishment for an awful deed committed by the Jews. God is shown to be very angry with them.

Remember, this is not "just a movie." This is the story of the Christian God. It is no metaphor to say this is "Gospel". It may not accurately represent the Gospel of John, from which it is drawn. But its a movie, and now movies outrank even the Bible--not in the conscious, but in the collective unconscious.

Even a rational, educated, historically savvy moviegoer is very likely to leave this film with an extremely negative impression of the Jews. I did! Without getting into discussions about Mel Gibson, his father, his conscious intentions, his unconscious intentions, just looking at the film for itself rather than at its maker, I am deeply troubled.

The beast of anti-Semitism is an ancient one. At best it slumbers; it has not died. Recent world events show that this beast is now awakening, especially overseas. It has still been largely slumbering here in America. I truly worry that the sleeping beast can be aroused by this film, and the awakened beast overseas can be incited into agita. The Passion story has been one of the primary recurrent triggers of the human shadow and its horrors for almost 1500 years, a perennial stimulus to anti-Semitism--even in some of the most enlightened epochs of history (e.g., "the Golden Age" of Spain).

This movie has the power to percolate amongst the coffee grounds of the unconscious, to create a deep impression, a taste, a feeling which can trickle through the filter of people's religious "passion," and brew a dark elixir indeed.

One might say: "People are too enlightened nowadays to fall prey to these kinds of feelings, too educated, trained to be sensitive, thoughtful and rational." My answer to this is that such optimism is delightful, and comforting, but represents a rather sophomoric view of human psychology. It fails to take in the lessons of such things as the Holocaust (which Gibson, Sr. rejects as real and therefore has no lesson), Rwanda, 9/11, gay-bashing, Ireland, the Middle-East, and a sad, long litany of other contemporary demonstrations of the human shadow unleashed, often by educated, enlightened, God-worshiping people.

It is actually my opinion that all Jewish people should see this film--not to give money to Mel Gibson, but to see what has the potential to be an alarm clock which can awaken the beast. We have to know what we face, and it isn't pretty. Then, we all need to educate ourselves about the known historical facts of the story, the contradictions of the Gospels, the distortions of those very Gospels by this film and the more enlightened views of the contemporary Catholic Church. We need to proactively try to recruit the consciousness of Christians who see this film to fortify conscious understanding, which is the only way to neutralize the unconscious, hateful impressions about the Jews. which the film instills.

If I, a devoted Jew, can walk out of this film hating the Jews depicted therein, how much more affected will be a devoted Christian? Through discourse about this film between Jews and Christians (informed by actually seeing the film, not just be reading emails like this and reviews--like Newsweek's--designed to keep peace and calm) we may have some hope of helping to keep that awful beast slumbering-along until, one day, it dies.

Mark S. Komrad M.D. 6501 North Charles St. Baltimore, MD 21285 410-938-4206 fax: 208-475-7312 www.komrad.yourmd.com

I am sorry that this doctor feels this way and he certainly belaboured his points but if you want to discuss the "Passion" movie, may I suggest that you find the folder that has been set up just for that purpose.

Here's the link to the "Passion" discussion: PassionMovieDiscussion

George, The email you posted was certainly heartfelt... I won't be seeing the movie, for several reasons... I did read articles in Newsweek today... Getz Vermes the author of several books I just read was quoted... Boy, it seems the longer we live the more the same old stuff just goes round and round... Let's pray your emailer's beast doesn't this time...

Lou

I am still reading "The Touble With Islam" by Irshad Manji and after getting through the first chapters into what she might she has researched about her faith, I am very interested in the history of Islam throughout the ages. Seems to follow the same course that Christianity did in claiming that one is not only better but justifies any actions that force its believeability. The Jews seem to be the only peaceful people back in the early days of Islam.

I guess her book could have been entitled " The Trouble With Christianity".... I am reading a book called "Meeting Jesus for the First Time" by Marcus J. Borg..... Like him I have all ways had trouble believing that Christians had a lock on the "way"......

Sorry not to be here lately but I have a bad cold and so does my computer.

I saw a book the other day at B&N about Judism which claimed to tell the unknown stories about that faith. I guess there must be a plethora of books from each of the three main faiths that read like the ones that you and I are reading.

"Mary Called Magdalene" by Margaret George. The beginning during her childhood was slow going, but once she met Christ and was relieved by him of her demons, it got VERY interesting. Margaret George is not only a historian, but also a religious scholar, and she obviously did much research into ancient documents for this book.

After reading it I analyzed why the passion of Christ in the book, in which the author had filled in the blanks every bit as much as Gibson did in his film, did not bother me as much as the film; and after thinking about it, it was because the images when I read are my own. Not only can I handle those better than someone else's images, but if the emotions get too heavy I can put the book down and go do something else for a while, but with a film one is captive and over-whelmed and the images often become intrusive for weeks afterwards.

The Bible is actually very sparse about the life of Christ or the words that he spoke, but there are many other ancient manuscripts which were not part of the Bible that said much about Him, including about his family, which is the only reason that we know Joachim and Anne were Mary's parents. Apparently Margaret George used a lot of manuscripts, including the gnostic gospels, to write this book---and it was a fascinating read.

MountainRose.....I have this book on reserve at the library.....I am anxious to read it......

It gives a real "feel" for the times, both as far as the way people lived and worked, and the political situation. Let me know what you think after you've read it.

Ah, so, we are back where we started here with the mention of the Gnosic gospels. Persian mentioned our reading and discussing a book by Elaine Pagels on the Gnostic gospels. I am going to get them again from the library and see what I think. Anyone else interested??

I, too, have the Magdalene book on loan from a friend and have been too busy with other titles to get to that one. Guess I better pick it up and peruse???

I heard a very interesting lady interviewed on NPR the other day and when they gave her name, I said, of course, I should have recognized her!! It was Karen Armstrong who has many titles out there about religion and God. Another author that I have yet to read. There are so many!

I would like to see this discussion get back on track and choose a book to discuss. We have had numerous suggestions in the past but seem to be making no progress in selecting anything. May I suggest either a book by Elaine Pagels or one by Karen Armstrong. These authors have been suggested before. Please let me know by email if a book is choosen so that I can order it. It takes over a month for me to get a book.

George, at your suggestion I got the History of God by Armstrong... and boy, does it look to be a good read!! It's high on the to be read mountain! Our daughter is finishing her biography, that was the topic of discussion on national public radio recently. She highly recommends that one. And also purchased the book on fundamentalism, the title escapes me right now, that compares religions...

I've been on a Mary Magdalene path lately... have read Margaret Starbird's two book: The Woman with the Alabaster Jar and then The Goddess in the Gospels. Also read two different translations and commentaries on the Gospel of Mary Magdalene... The DaVenci Code has kept me going in circles for months now!!!

Lou

I'm just finishing Mary Called Magdalene. As a woman in contemporary America, it's been interesting for me to read about Mary's gender-related concerns as they pertain to the religious tradition in her time period. A mental health expert in our day might be easily familiar with Mary's demonic episodes and prescribe therapy and medication. But certainly in her time period, she bravely stood the test of time until Jesus relieved her (and the others) of the hideous episodes by casting out the demons.

LOU - I think you will truly enjoy Karen Armstrong's work. As we discussed sometime ago, she is highly respected in the academic community and offers the non-specialist an enormous breadth of well researched and written information about various aspects of religion and religious beliefs throughout the centuries. History of God is one of her best.

Persian, I enjoy your messages so much! Your point of view is so refreshing and adds much to any conversation!!

Off to meet and greet Karen Armstrong!

Lou

ANN - I would like to recommend another text for your consideration as our next title to be discussed. THE MUSLIM JESUS (Harvard, 2001), edited and translated by Tarif Khalidi (Sir Thomas Adams's Professor of Arabic, Director of the Centre of Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies, and Fellow of King's College, Cambridge).

With Professor Khalidi's first sentence - "The Arabic Islamic literary tradition of the premodern period contains several hundred sayings and stories ascribed to Jesus." - the Western reader realizes that here is a compilation of well researched and organized references from one of the world's major religions (Islam) about a great prophet and teacher (Jesus) of an earlier period. Professor Khalidi writes of this collection as "forming the largest body of texts relating to Jesus in any non-Christian literature" and he refers to it as "The Muslim Gospel."

Although based on excellent scholarship, this text is not heavily academic nor boring to a general audience. It brings to the Western reader a great sense of the "presence" of Jesus in Islamic literature and the "reverence" in which he is held by Muslims. The sources upon which Khalidi drew range from the 8th to the 18th centuries A.D., and span a global sphere from Spain to China. Although not well known in the West, many of the selections included in the text are familiar to well educated Muslims today. The book is divided into sections which assist the reader in placing the selections into their appropriate Islamic time periods. Khalidi includes extensive notes, which by themselves are fascinating. It should also be noted that among the selections are those drawn from Christian Arab sources, indicating that diverse scholars of earlier periods worked in concert with each other, while adhering to their own cultral beliefs.

The late Edward Said spoke of this text as follows: "Tarif Khalidi's commentary and compilation of Muslim depictions of Jesus is a remarkable, eye-opening work of deep scholarship, profound religious understanding, and unprecedentedly rich cross-cultural exchange. A work as full of novelty as it is of wonderful illumination, Khalidi's effort to show how one major religion adopted and loved the central figure of another religion establishes him as one of the foremost Islamic scholars of our time. This book is a pleasure to read, accessible to generalists and to those for whom belicose claims about the clash of civilizations as as unsatisfactory as they are false."

I recommend this book wholeheartedly to anyone who would like to know more about how strongly Jesus is perceived and respected by Muslims.

1)"Unsettled" by Melvin Conner, a history of Jewish People

2) "Mary Called Magdalene" by Margaret George

3)"Reading Lolita in Tehran"

4)"Oridinary People as Monks and Mystics" by Marsha Sinetar

5) "The Trouble With Islam" by Irshad Manji

6) "The Way of a Pilgrim" by Adrew Newburg

7) "Conversations With God"

"Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis

9) "The Meaning of Jesus" by Marcus Borg and N.T.Wright

10)"The Changing Faces of Jesus" by Getz Vacremes(so?)

The most frequently mentioned books are "Mary Called Magdalene" and "The Trouble with Islam" and books by C.S. Lewis. How about choosing from this list and each of us voting for the one that we might discuss??

Since the above 10 titles are a "partial list", I'd like to see the titles and authors of the other suggestions, before making a decision. I seem to recall at least one other title: The Gnostic Gospels.

I thought that I had included that one. Of course, its to be considered also. Otherwise, I believe that this list is fairly complete. I don't think that I missed any others.

So, consider this list amended, folks, and vote for your title.

1)"Unsettled" by Melvin Conner, a history of Jewish People

2) "Mary Called Magdalene" by Margaret George

3)"Reading Lolita in Tehran"

4)"Oridinary People as Monks and Mystics" by Marsha Sinetar

5) "The Trouble With Islam" by Irshad Manji

6) "The Way of a Pilgrim" by Adrew Newburg

7) "Conversations With God"

"Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis

9) "The Meaning of Jesus" by Marcus Borg and N.T.Wright

10)"The Changing Faces of Jesus" by Getz Vacremes(so?)

11)"The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels

My vote goes to:

"The Trouble With Islam" by Irshad Manji

And, my reason, is that as she finds the problems with Islam, she comes up with positive solutions and suggestions which we can all take to heart.

"Mary Called Magdalene" by Margaret George "Conversations With God" "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis "The Changing Faces of Jesus" by Getz Vacremes(so?)

actually this author's name is Getz Vermes...

"The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels

I have read all of the above books... at least one time... some were wonderful reads... Lewis, Vermes and Pagels... Conversations with God was not worth my time, in my opinion... the George book is a wonderful fiction... and that's what it is a fiction...

Right now I have such a stack of books that are calling my name... as I said in a post recently, several Armstrong books and also What went Wrong by Lewis... that I'm afraid that not any of the above appeal to me. That's not to say that they are not worthy of attention, just not for me right now.

Lou

LOU - isn't it delightful to have books that "speak to you" - even calling your name! Indeed, there are a wide range of books dealing with various aspects of religion from which to choose. I've always been grateful to be born into a society (and at a time), when the books I want to read (or have been recommended to me) are easily availabe. Each year, my husband and I cull through our titles and pack up several boxes to send to individuals associated with his university in Egypt. And over the years, as those folks have read some of the books we've already enjoyed, we find an informal "books discussion" underway. What a pleasure!

Oh, Persian, I love it!! BUT... right now I'm feeling so overwhelmed because there are so many of them... and I'm bursting with connections between them and no outlet to fine tune my perceptions... Maybe in 'the sweet bye and bye' as the old song goes I'll find... whatever it is I'm looking for... I don't even know at this point if it's a place or a person!!!

Lou

Lou2, it must be the leprechauns of Ireland that are making you undecided! Hang in there!

If we don't want a book to discuss, what do we want to do in here. Maybe I will ask a 'techie' to put the list of choices that I made from rereading all the posts in here. And, then a notice to remind folks to vote for one book that they are interested in reading and discussing.

Is it possible that the Head Leprechaun has given us the choice of simply discussing the books we are reading? Sharing our impressions, a few quotes from the different texts, offering opinions or asking questions? What's to say that such an intelligent and widely read group as ours cannot handle multiple titles simultaneously?

Interesting idea - not having a hard and fast topic and/or book - just a free-wheeling discussion on related thoughts as they come up. So often discussions do go off topic and get really intriguing but then have to be brought back. Maybe it would be stimulating to not have that restriction.

I'm game!

I think it's feasible to stay with the topic of Religion Related Books, while not necessarily focusing on just one book. Afterall, we are all reading several books - at least it sure sounds that way and my tables are as overloaded as I'm sure others are, too. And if Ann puts up a few "headers" from her own reading, and others do so occasionally, too, then it should balance out. This technique works beautifully in a seminar format and should work well in this online discussion, too. Especially since we are all avid readers.

And since SN posters move around among the various discussions, what they read/post in other forumns could certainly contribute to what we discuss here. For example, one of the posters recently attended an Elderhostel program entitled "Building Bridges to Islam." He enjoyed it and posted a brief report of his experience. Today he posted in the Islam discussion about an article in his local paper which seemed to contradict "everything taught in the Elderhostel program." The poster asked for my opinion and I gave it, using a comparative approach vis-a-vis Islam, as well as Paul's scripture about women remaining silent in church (1 Timothy 11, 12). That aspect would certainly be relevant to those posters here who have been reading Mary Called Magdalene, as Mary often wonders why women are relegated to such second-class status. Thus a "bridge" was created by the Elderhostel participant, who posted in the SN Islam discussion, and I responded, but with answers from both Islam and Christianity. Having just read Mary Called Magdalene, it seemed appropriate to do so.

In our earlier discsusions in this forumn, we've happily established that this is NOT a hostile discussion, nor is anyone trying to force their opinions or beliefs on others. That's a great blessing in any discussion. The respect shown in the previous discussions, as well as the guidance which Ann provided, works well towards continuing onwards - with or without a specific title. Religion as a topic is diverse enough in itself to prompt interesting comments, regardless of the background of the commentator/reader. I'm flexible and am happy to participate either with/without a specific title.

Persian, I like your idea of a free-wheeling discussion and little snippets from books we are reading.....I purchased the Karen Armstrong Book, " A History of God" and it is waiting for me......Am currently reading "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism", by John Shelby Spong an Episcopal Bishop.....most interesting......am mulling over the idea that Paul may have been homosexual....re reading some of his writing with this possibility in mind gives one pause.......

When reflecting on Paul's sexuality, keep in mind that the cultural traditions of the time (which are still prevalent in many areas of the Middle East and Central Asia today)rigorously separated men and women in many public and private instances. Thus, a contemporary reader, viewing this traditional acceptance of same gender interaction on a daily basis, may wonder about Paul's sexual orientation. Yet it is equally fair to say that much of Paul's behavior contributes towards this questioning.

Tigerlily, I saw the Spong recently... are you enjoying it? He reviewed something I read and was also quoted in another one... Darn it!! There are too many good books... I'll never ever get to the end... that's a good thing... and a frustrating one...

Just read in Armstrong's History of God about how the concept of the Trinity came about... in her 4th chapter... She has also mentioned concepts I found in the French translation, Leloup's (I sure hope I got that right???)of The Gospel of Mary... nous... and I'm about to decide Gospel of Mary and Gospel of Thomas have concepts closer to the orginial than all of the concepts manipulated by folks, like the Trinity...

Reading about early Christianity and history of how we got the Bibical canon we have today have been so eye opening for me...

Lou

LOU - readiny your last sentence above reminded me that when my son, David, was in seminary, one of his constant expressions was "I never knew that!"

Oh yes Lou.....I am enjoying the book.....and like Persians son , the more I read the more I can say "I never knew that"....There is nothing like reading the history behind the Bible... I am all ways interested in how people experience their faith or how they experience or perceive God......

One of the topics brought up by the author of "The Trouble With Islam" is the freeing of women from their own mindsets that have evolved over many centuries. They have been taught that they are always to be watched over by their husbands, fathers, Mullahs as thought they are living in a tribe of many generations. The author's suggested solution is that we know that the Koran doesn't say that women can't own businesses as Muhammed's own wife was quite a businesswoman and continued to be so even after Muhammed's desert experience. So she suggests that we try to empower the women who want to go into a small business by loaning them small amounts of money to get something started. Good ol' Oprah has already done a program about this solution and President Clinton has also been very interested in helping the women of his own state in the poorer districts in this manner.

And this type of empowerment is on-going in Afghanistan through the efforts of the well educated Afghan women in the disapora (particularly in the USA), who have returned to their homeland to share their education and experiences. Many Saudi women are extremely successful business women (and often enormously wealthy in their own right), but the West just does not hear about them. And there are substantial numbers of successful business women in Malaysia, the region of the world with the largest population of Muslims.

The Qur'an is very specific that Muslim women can indeed own and operate businesses AND control their own income (whether it is inherited or earned) without having to account for it to their male relatives. Unfortunately, in the case of less well educated women (particularly in the rural areas of the Middle East and Central Asia - i.e. the Northern tribal regions in Afghanistan and Pakistan), the women are physically and mentally intimidated and are ignorant of their Qur'anic rights, due to their illiteracy.

Where did I read about the construction company owner from Montana who went over to one of the Muslim countries and decided to start building schools that were open to girls?? Must look that up!

What I hear you saying Persian is that education can help but its hard to get it to the poor and tribes.

More "Aha haw" moments from A History of God...

I hadn't realized that Arabs kept Ramadan before Islam....

Nor that the hajj pilgramage to Mecca also pre-dated Islam...

Love the way she is protraying the creation of Islam...

Lou

ANN - Parade Magazine featured two articles about the Montana fellow. One last year, I think, and the second one a few weeks ago as a follow-up to the first one. He's done really well and obviously is strongly committed to this humanitarian effort. And he's brought in family members to help, as his brother-in-law is also featured in the second article.

LOU - I'm glad you're enjoying A History of God. Many of the cultural traditions followed by Muslims pre-date Islam. They just are not well known in the West, as you are surely finding out.

Is it the Roraster faith which has the fire celebration just before Ramadan? I seem to remember Bruce Feilor or the author of "Finding??????" telling us about the celebration and how the men and boys all have to jump the fires that are set.

You're thinking of ZOROASTRANISM - the ancient religion of Persia.

Yes, Ann, I remember that scene, too. "Finding Hassan", maybe? That was a nifty book and one that might lend itself well to a discussion? Of course, someone would have to be able to remember the exact title! Glad you mentioned it.

There's the title and we have already discussed that book. About a year ago! Its was a super read and we all enjoyed it. Gave a good and fair look at Iran.

Zoroastian??? Well, I had part of the word. Hahaha! Wasn't that a fun scene that Ward and his brothers took part in with Hassan and the other Iranians, celebrating fire?? Ward painted an impressive picture with his words.

And, about the Montana man and building of schools, I remember reading somewhere that he took his wife and his mother over there to see what he was doing and they stayed to help also. What a super example of what human beings can do! We need more like him. This is activism in its highest form.

Persian,

Are you familiar with this book that I am reading about Islam, "The Trouble With Islam"? Do you know if this young woman has had any luck with her suggestions for the modernization of Islam? She does make many good points about the faith sticking to the dark ages and how it needs to abandon fear of change. I am impressed.

Here is a link about Zoroastrianism, which might be interesting to readers who are unfamiliar with the religion and its origins:

http://www.avesta.org/avesta.html

ANN - is the author of the book a young gay woman, living in Canada now? If so, I think I read a review of her work sometime ago in the Washington Post. The review was positive and mentioned that she obviosuly represented a new generation of Muslims with ideas that could transcend traditional cultural ideas, many of which have prolonged "the dark ages" of Islam for far too long.

Perisan

Yes, that's the author and the book. I am on the last few pages and wondering how she proposes that these changes be put into practice.

Thanks for the link.

One of the things that she mentions is a new project here in the USA titled "Muslims in the American Public Square which lauds the Joseph's coat that is the U.S. Muslim constituency. But, at last check, there were no women sitting the advisory board. When a group of 25 Muslim leaders came together to form this new project, again there were no women among them. They have a website which I will look for and put up in here. No women in these pictures of MAPS Advisory Board

The Muslims in the American Public Square (MAPS)project at Georgetown University has been in operation for several years. Although there were no women on the Advisory Board, that certainly may change. However, there are a number of well known and highly respected women participating in the MAPS programs and workshops. Probably most notable is Professor Yvonne Haddad, Center for Muslim Christian Understanding at Georgetown University. (The Center's Director, Professor John Esposito, is a highly regarded scholar in the field and the founder of the MAPS program.) In browsing through the MAPS info., I see that my friend Dr. Sulayman N'Yang (former Chair of the African Dept. at Howard University) is a co-founder and participant. And I recognize several other national figures among the participants. The MAPS program is well funded (thanks to the PEW Foundation)and offers a high caliber opportunity for scholars and people in the national community to better understand the American Muslim community, as well as their place in and interaction with the American pluralistic society. The photos are on the MAPS web site include several women participating in the workshops. Thankfully, in America, a program like MAPS could not really be successful without the important participation of women.

I tend to like to read and discuss a specific book on line and not have a free wheeling discussion. That is why I dropped out of the Studs Terkel discussion. (But then I have dropped out of a number of discussions)

I just purchased a wonderful reference book for me - The Jewish Study Bible, Oxford Univeristy press, 2003. This is a reference book and it contains a wealth of information about the old Testament from a Jewish point of view. I am dipping into it and going where my interest takes me.

George, I have been buried in A History of God... thanks so much for recommending it...

Talk to me about kababblah (sp??)... I saw books on this in the book store on this and never heard about it... and now several pages here in Armstrong... What can you tell me? Is it still praticed? (I'm reading the Enlightenment chapter...) If I'm not being too personal, have you had personal experience with it? I have a friend on another sight who is reading books about kababblah like crazy and really enjoying...

Maybe the word is embarrassed... I've really been feeling something... reading about Hinduism, Buddism, Islam, Judism... all these religions have such open embrasing ideas... and here comes Christianity... like a bull in the china closet... offending and offensive...

Is it the wrathful God? What is it that has caused this???

Lou

Lou, here is one site I found on Kabbalah. Not sure if this is what you want. Mysticism in Judaism has had a resurgence in recent years.

http://www.kabbalah.info/

Kabbalah

First of all, George, let me apologize for spelling it wrong... in my next life, I hope I can spell... and next, thanks for the site... It sure tells me that Kabbalah is alive and well right now. Everything you'd want to know and them some, LOL!!

A History of God has my mind in turmoil!!! guess that's about right, since the whole world seems to be in turmoil...

Lou

Perisian,

Thanks for researching my post and for offering your always insightful comments. What gets me here is, where do we find women who can participate on advisory boards in Islam? Is the fact that you mentioned about them even participating in MAPS a step forward for them in the faith?

George,

I understand your preferring to discuss a specific title and we may get around to that later this year but for now we are trying this format. Please, at least, lurk here and answer anything that is asked about Judism. Thanks!

Lou2

You are piqueing my interest in Karen Armstrong's about the history of God. I heard her once again on PBS last night with her newest book. Just picked up from the library again, The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. I found it very dry reading the first time that I attempted to read it but hope to reconsider it now.

Ann, at the end of History of God Armstrong makes some cautionary statements about fundamentalism... they recalled to my mind Kendall's points we read in When Religion Becomes Evil... So I ran next door and got daughter's copy of The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism... In the new preface Armstrong talks about 9/11 and how that was an example of the new fundamentalism... I'm afraid this will be a scary important read.

Do you remember the title of her newest book? Is it the biography, A Spiral Staircase? I had planned to read that one next, but decided the other was more important for now...

Lou

ANN - don't be overly concerned about Muslimas participating in various programs in the USA. There are many well educated women among the Muslim communities in our country, who generally focus their professional efforts on their immediate community. Some, who feel so inclined, work at a State or National level. Others - like those in academic communities - work with outreach. However, remember that the intention of women in Islam is to be the "foundation of the family," "the rock of the faith within the family" and many Muslimas choose to work on women's issues and/or within women's organizations.

To me, not having women on the Board of MAPS is not as important as making sure that women participate in the programs, workshops, training seminars, etc. Since MAPS is housed at one of the most well known (and well regarded) institutions of higher education in the USA, that says alot for its make-up, as well as the intention of its founder. I know the Georgetown campus well and also the Center for Muslim Christian understanding. They play an important role, not only in an academic way, but also in teaching the next generation about their responsibilities in our pluralistic society.

Putting MAPS aside for a moment, think of the woman who is the interim Iraqi Ambassador in Washington. She is dynamite! The spouses of the Arab ambassadors posted to Washington DC all belong to an organization called MOSAIC, which is their "voice" to the other diplomatic personnel in WAshington, as well as to the Washington community at large. They undertake numerous fundraisers for humanitarian purposes, especially children's issues, and often draw on their own substantial funds (NOT those of their husbands) to support their efforts. The wife of the Saudi Ambassador is particularly known for using her own personal wealth in this capacity. She is a millionaire in her own right, not due to her husband's wealth, and can well afford to contribute to many ventures.

And although they are seldom featured (or even written about) in the mainline press (particularly in the West), Arab and Muslim women do alot of work for their communities throughout the world. There are some amazing Muslimas in Malaysia who are extremely successful business women, every bit as astute as their male counterparts. You just don't hear about their efforts in the public forumns. And it is their choice to keep their work out of the press.

The American press and its readers are accustomed to "flashy" type intrigue, often in a more-or-less "Hollywood-esque" manner. That is NOT the way of Muslimas, especially those who are wealthy or high-level business women. In academic circles, someone like Yvonne Haddad at Georgetown University is known for her intellect, not her public persona.

The young Canadian woman who wrote the book you are reading is of the new generation of Muslimas, who are eager to reach out in a more public manner. There are others like her and their endeavors will become public knowledge step by step. In the meantime, don't worry too much about MAPS. It's well run by dedicated scholars who have dedicated their careers to furthering a better understanding and working relationships between people of differing religious backgrounds and, perhaps more importantly especially now, offering a deeper look into the important ways in which "Muslims in the Public Square" can (and should be heard).

Tonight I've been listening to Professor John Esposito's 12 lecture CD course on GREAT WORLD RELIGIONS: Islam, from "The Great Courses: Teaching That Engages the Mind" (The Teaching Company, 2003 - www.teach 12.com). My husband picked up the lecture series for me from our local library and I have especially enjoyed Lectures #10 "Women in Islam," #11 "Islam in the West," and #12 "The Future of Islam. The CD's are accompanied by a Course Guidebook with substantial Bibliography.

As perhaps those of you who have been browsing the authors in the diverse collection on Islam already know, Esposito is University Professor, Professor of Religion and Interntional Affairs, and Professor of Islamic Studies at Georgetown University, Washington DC. He is also the Founding Director of the Center for Muslim Christian Understanding: History and International Affairs in the Walsh School of Foreign Service. He is Editor-in-Chief of The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern Islamic World, the Oxford History of Islam, and The Oxford Dictionary of Islam and the author of more than 25 books.

Thus, he speaks from a learned standpoint about historical Islam, as well as the emergence of Islam in the West, particularly in the USA. For anyone interested in learning more about Islam (particularly in the USA), I recommend this lecture series wholeheartedly.

Esposito offers some particularly asture comments about women in Islam, the Islamic dress for women (from the Muslim women's standpoint)and how/why it has become so seriously misunderstood in the West. He highlights the independence of Muslim women in Saudi Arabia who own large tracts of land, manage their own businesses and money, and how numerous Muslim women in some countries are highly educated, active in all phases of business, serve in their country's government and are elected public figures. He also gives a fine example of the difference of "freedom" from Muslim women's standpoint in many countries vs their "perception that women only THINK they are free in the USA and Europe, as they are exploited in commercial advertising, sexual films, prostitution and drug rings." The latter is an interesting concept of East vs West on womens's issues.

I've only listened to three of the CD's, but they are excellent.

Persian, thanks so much for that about the Teaching Company... we recently got a catalog from them and the lessons sounded great, but so good to hear from someone who has experienced them.

Just finished The Spiral Staircase this morning. This is Karen Armstrong's biography. I highly recommend it! Her journey is so different from mine that I found it "un-put-down-able"!!!!

Lou

AFter listening to some more of the lectures, I ordered the set (including the Guide Book) this morinng at a highly reduced rate from The Teaching Company. This is a series that I will turn to repeatedly in the future for my own information and to share with others.

I have been a fan and student of the Teaching Company for ten years. Their courses are wonderful. However, watch the prices as a course that comes out for $400 or more is often reduced within a year. I have gotten some very long courses for less than $100. DVD is the best format in my opinion as it is very easy to find and change lessons.

Here's a link to an intereting article in the Washington Post about Christian Zionists and their commitment to Israel without the well-known proselitizing for which evangelicals are known in the USA.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28376-2004Mar26.html

The mild proselitizing is in the links at the bottom of the article. Just kidding, my dear! I do like it that different faiths are willing to help out their fellow believers be it whatever they call their higher power.

Now, if we could only make up our minds about the pledge of allegiance here in the USA.

I picked up a free newspaper which is for the Jewish families in Columbus, my town, and started to read the article about the Schottenstein-funded Talmud which amazes me. That a people is still working so hard to understand the words of God and the law will always garner my interest. Here is a link to a mild description of this Talmud and others. Why do they work so hard on this?? And, there are other translations of the Schottenstein Talmud including French. There is a picture of two pages in the Talmud that show the Aramaic on the left and the English translation on the other with translations of each phrase. The editors translate phrase by phrase, while enhancing the English for the modern reader. They use bold type to point out words that actually appear in the Talmud. Notes provide context and explain the concepts being discussed. This link is to another site that explains this edition a little. I couldn't find a site for this little newspaper but will keep looking. Talmud Translations article

George, you have sent me on a journey!!! Just as I was finishing A HIstory of God, our daughter brought home Karen Armstrong's biography, A Spiral Staircase... which is a wonderful read about her spiritial journey... and also, The Battle for God... her book on fundamentalism. This one isn't as easy a read, for me, as History was... but quite revealing...

I was so surpirsed to find this statement...

To this day, Zionism and the Jewish state which the movement would create have been more divisive in the Jewish world than modernity itself.

and then this morning I've been reading the chapter that addresses the years 1925-1960... which includes so much of the ultra-orthodoxy and their way of belief and life. Such an education I'm getting!!!

I also find it fascinating reading about the Christian fundamendalist... finding roots of things I've been taught all my life from another point of view...

Oh, yes, George, a great big thank you is coming your way from me!!!

Lou

I have heard Karen Armstrong interviewed twice about "The Spiral Staircase" and it sounds very interesting as she felt like such a failure when she left the sisterhood but since then has had a wonderful spiritual journey. By the way, who wrote "The History of God"?? Was that also Armstrong?

Yes, Ann... The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism, is by Karen Armstrong. She takes Christianity, Islam and Judaism from 1492 through 1999 in the development of Fundamentalism... quite a journey and very very informative for me... I highly recommend this one... though it has not been an easy read for me, as A History of God was.

I keep missing her interviews, darn it!!

Lou

ANN - perhaps if you post where you heard the Armstrong interviews, a tape could be obtained from the station. I've done that several times when guests whom I have a particular interest in are featured.

Oh, Persian, just this evening I got out hubby's Atlas of World History... looking for some of the countries lost through history... and one was Persia... finally, patiently paging through... there the Persian Gulf... and there's.... de... do... Persia... Boy, oh, boy, do I feel stupid... hubby keep trying to say... if this is not your area of study... etc... etc... I have learned so much, my brain is aching...

The Society of Muslin Brothers in Egypt... oh, my gosh... what amazing things they did... I guess the government was embarrassed... and they should have been... what a shame when folks can't leave well enough alone... The Secret Apparatus... why do people's .... what is it??? evil???.... have to come out... the Brotherhood was doing such wonderful things...

And then I find that even in 1953 DD Eisenhower was involved in Iran... British intelligence and the CIA... See, even the US can't leave well enough alone...

The more you learn the less this world appeals!!!

Lou

LOU - yes, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was providing a social service to the communities - feeding the children, providing health care for the indigent (of which there are many thousands as Egypt is a enormously ppor country even though the USA donates a couple billion each year), offering Islamic education to young boys, and other humanitarian efforts. However, the Muslim Brotherhood also turned into one deadly organization, responsible for attakcs on public figures, neighborhoods whose residents were not in sync with the Brotherhood (i.e., the Jewish sector of Old Cairo), and outright murders. Members of the Brotherhood were active in the military for many years. The late Presidents Nasser (who was much loved in Egypt) and Sadaat (who was not well liked in country) controlled alot of the attacks, but not all. Much of the organiztions actions were underground. During the current Pres. Mubarak's regime, he has been less impressed with the Brotherhood's humanitarian efforts and VERY controlling of their outreach efforts. With the new generation of Egyptians agitating for better services, more jobs, etc., the Brotherhood is once again finding fertile ground for their trouble-making, especially in the poorest communities.

The British presence is Iran is of long standing duration - ways back into the 1800's. The American intelligence community, especially the CIA, has been active in Iran (and still continues to be) since the early days of the late Shah Mhamed Reza. His father, who was also Shah until he was exiled, was less impressed with the CIA. But Shah Mohamed depended on the CIA and the American government and thought he had fairly good relations with Washington through various presidencies. That is one reason why Shah loyalists, many of whom immigrated to Southern California (including members of the Shah's family)were aghast when Pres. Carter refused to continue to offer the Shah medical care and sanctuary in the USA during his struggles with cancer. The Shah's eldest son and his widow, Farah Dibba (who has a new book just released) maintain homes in the metropolitan Washington DC area (which is where I live, too) and are supportive of the younger Iranian generation.

... and today I'm reading about Kohmenini... and I can see why he appealed. That's what makes Armstrong so good... she can get to the heart of the time and place and people... and present it as it seemed in that era... and then she evaluates and shows the other side...

So, am I understanding you correctly the Muslim Brotherhood is still going strong in Egypt, Persian??? My current chapter ends in 1974... There are points in my reading I'm ready to join up!!

Lou

LOU - I'm certainly glad that you are enjoying your reading of various aspects of the Middle East. But stifle those urges to "join up" with the Muslim Brotherhood. Whenever you feel the urge, remember Patti Hearst's experiences in the USA!

Remember when we were discussing the subject of which side of Islam would you take--"Shia or Sunni"? We were all excited to give our thoughts of those choices. What book was that??

Sorry, Ann... can't answer that one...

I've had quite a morning here... my chapter today 1974-79... Jewish settlements on the West Bank... coalition between religious and secular Zionists... Signed the Middle East Peace Accords... and encountered trouble both in Isreal and Egypt... Saw the uprising of the students in Egypt... fought the Iranian Revolution... and saw the fundamentalist revival with the Moral Majority and the New Christian Right... This chapter has opened my eyes and put in perspective so many issues... This chapter alone is worth reading the book...

Lou

I've been watching Peter Jennings's special tonight on "Jesus and Paul" on ABC. Very interesting, especially with the contributions by some very distinguished Jewish and Christian scholars, including Karen Armstrong.

Since tonight is the first night of Passover, I thought this article from the WAshington Post about how US military in Iraq plan to celebrate might be interesting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50279-2004Apr4.html

I recorded Jesus and Paul and watched it last night. I thought is was very interesting and very balanced. ABC news did a good job. Of special interest were the contributors and the books that they had written. There is a wealth of material for us to dig out collective teeth into and I am dissappointed that this discussion has not settled on a book to read and discuss. I feel that we lost our way some months ago.

George we may have lost our way but what a way to go!!! I am now reading "The History of God" by Karen Armstrong and have her new book about herself on request at the library......I also am reading "The God I Never Knew" by Marcus Borg.....(Jesus Seminar).....I also have a new book of collected interviews of Huston Smith......Then I keep reading of good things here yet to read!......Someone mentioned how much they were learning of history not just religion.....so very true for me......

This article should be of interest.

Bigotry outside Faneuil Hall

By Alan Dershowitz March 5, 2004

The other day, I experienced violent anti-Semitism for the first time in my adult life. It took place in front of Faneuil Hall, the birthplace of Amer independence & liberty.

I was receiving a justice award from the Jewish Council on Public Affairs & delivering a talk on "Civil Liberties in the Age of Terrorism" from the podium of that historic hall. When I left, award in hand, I was accosted by a group of screaming, angry young men & women carrying virulently anti-Israel signs. The protest was denominated a peace event & was sponsored by a group calling themselves by the vague name ACT-MA. Their website describes them as promoting peace & justice & associated with larger solidarity organizations, but there was nothing peaceful or just about this protest.

Although the signs they were carrying were not anti-Semitic, the sign carriers were shouting epithets at me that crossed the line from civility to bigotry. "Dershowitz & Hitler, just the same, the only difference is the name." The sin that, in the opinion of the screamers, warranted this comparison between me & the man who murdered dozens of my family members was my support for Israel. It was irrelevant to these chanters that I also support a Palestinian state, the end of the Israeli occupation & the dismantling of most of the settlements. They also shouted "Dershowitz and Gibbels [sic], just the same, the only difference is the name" - not even knowing how to pronounce the name of the anti-Semitic Nazi propagandist.

One sign carrier shouted that Jews who support Israel are worse than Nazis. Another demanded that I be tortured & killed. It wasn't only their words; itwas the hatred in their eyes. If a dozen Boston police were not protecting me, I have little doubt I would have been physically attacked. Their eyes were ablaze with fanatical zeal.

The feminist writer Phyllis Chesler aptly described the hatred often directed against Israel & supporters of the Jewish state by some young people as eroticized. That is what I saw: passionate hatred, ecstatic hatred, orgasmic hatred. It was beyond mere differences of opinion. When I looked into their faces, I could imagine young Nazis in the 1930s in Hitler's Germany. They had no doubt that they were right & that I was pure evil for my support of the Jewish state, despite my public disagreement with some of Israel's policies & despite my support for Palestinian statehood. There was no place for nuance here. It was black & white, good versus evil, & any Jew who supported Israel was pure evil, deserving of torture, violence, & whatever fate Hitler & Goebbels deserved.

I do not believe that criticism of Israel, or even of Zionism, is tantamount to anti-Semitism & I have so written over the years. But what happened in front of Faneuil Hall went beyond criticism. To be sure, it was constitutionally protected speech, just as the Nazi march through Skokie was constitutionally protected speech. But the shouting was plainly calculated to intimidate. An aura of violence was in the air, & had the police not been there, I would not have been able to express any views counter to theirs.

As it turned out, I was not actually able to express any of my opinions, even in response to their outrageous mischaracterization of my views or their comparisons of me to the most evil men in the world. When I turned to answer one of the bigoted chants, the police officer in charge gently but firmly insisted that I walk directly to my car & not engage them. It was an order, reasonably calculated to assure my safety, & it was right. The officer got into my car with me & only got out a few blocks away. The intimidation had succeeded. I was silenced, and their horrible message went unanswered in the plaza near Faneuil Hall.

That is not the way the marketplace of ideas is supposed to work. It is not the conception of liberty for which Sam and John Adams spoke so eloquently and controversially in & around Faneuil Hall more than 200 years ago. It was far more reminiscent of rallies conducted by Nazi thugs in Berlin 70 years ago.

I will not be silenced nor intimidated. The shouters know that. Their goal is to silence & intimidate others, who do not get police protection & do not have access to the media. Let the debate about Israel & the Palestinians continue unabated. Let all views be heard. The shouters in front of Faneuil Hall wanted no views but their own to be seen & heard. They succeeded that day in front of Faneuil Hall, as they have on some university campuses, but the marketplace of ideas is far too vibrant to be shut down by a bunch of self-righteous thugs shouting ugly & bigoted epithets.

BOTTOM LINE:

THE MEDIA DID NOT REPORT THIS STORY. THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO PROF. DANIEL PIPES & NO ONE REPORTED IT. THE TRUTH WILL WIN OUT. SPREAD THE WORD.

George, This is what amazed and troubled me so much in the Battle for God book... The grafatti Armstrong reported on walls in Isreal that 'Zionist were Hitler' written by the very Orthodox was so hard to understand... I have a better understanding of the different points of view after reading that book. But it was such a heartache to read as was this article... So many points of view, each so precious to their owners... and some so harmful to others.

Lou

PESACH SHALOM & HAPPY EASTER TO EVERYONE!

George

What a horrible happening to read about and realize that the human race is still not able to get along. Its almost as if people enjoy hating as that one lady said, 'its erotic'!

I received an article this week that also wasn't reported in the press and it was supposed to have a picture but it didn't open in my email program. Anyway, its still worth knowing about. Here 'tis,

After posting the article here, I searched or googled and found it with the picture at this web site:

Grateful Iraqi Artist

ANN - I just sent your link to my son, David, to add to his "resource portfolio." Thanks for posting it for us.

I am reading and thinking of proposing a book titled, "The Islamic Threat-Myth or Reality?" by John L. Esposito, who heads an organization that tries to bring better understanding of Islam and other religions. This book was suggested by Persian and I am so far finding it interesting. If I decide to lead this discussion, it will be up in the "Proposed Books" for the month of ????? I'm not sure, must check my summer schedule. I will decide soon whether to propose it or not and let everyone in this discussion know whats up.

He is one of the prominent Middle East Scholars, a long-time Professor of Middle East Studies at Georgetown University, and the Director (and co-founder) of the University's Center for Muslim Christian Understanding. Esposito is thought of as a highly qualified and distinguished scholar in the field by others who are equally as knowledgeable: Karen Armstrong and the late Edward Said, for example.

The book covers the broad diversity of Islam and its relation to and interaction with Judaism and Christianity. Esposito offers his comments without depending on an overly critical style and presented from a learned scholar's indepth work of more than 30 years, as well as a collegial respect for individuals from all ethnicities and religious backgrounds.

Given the world's problems at this time, its might be beneficial for us to discover just what the words in the title mean and how Esposito interprets the "threat of Islam".

From my reading, I found that the 'threat' is dangerous for Islam's sincere followers as for the citizens of the world. One of the points the author makes is that most religions were founded as 'ways to live', with suggested rules for communing with a higher power, cleanliness, eating etc,etc. Also, the author goes into detail about 'democracy and the political structure' being so incredibly different from what the Islamic society can maybe ease into.

One of our authors, Bruce Feiler, is on Fox-News this morning talking about his recent trip to the Middle East with wonderful pictures. I heard him interviewed yesterday talking about this trip since it was so hard to get where he wanted to go in Iraq. He has an article in one of the Sunday magazines this weekend or in a new issue of a magazine, Parade or ?????? Sorry I just didn't catch it when they gave the name this morning!

Present! I have been deeply immersed in the Mary Magdalen book....the book you propose sounds like one I would like very much.....hopefully the others will agree........

I read the Amazon reviews and am not sure if I would buy this book. I would like to hear what Mahlia has to suggest. I am more interested in learning about radical Islam and its origins; this is the side of Islam that seems to be of concern globally. There is a book by Robert Spencer, Onward Muslim Soldiers (I think) that might make for a more challenging read.

I also just read an interesting article in Time Magazine, April 12th, "Why did Jesus Have to Die". As a Jew, I found this article fascinating and may pursue its thesis on my own.

I just found this interesting article about Esposito and call it to your attention. I do not know the author and cannot vouch for anything said in the article. The author may be totally off base.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.asp?ID=2651

I did a Google search and found the following article about Esposito that is also interesting.

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/kurtz120301.shtml

GEORGE - thanks very much for posting the two links about John Esposito. Both are very interesting, timely and certainly give another picture of Esposito's more than 30 years of work in Middle East affairs. In the first article, I think the writer brings some very fair (and cogent) points to bear about Esposito's comments during the past few years and also stresses Esposito's well established reputation in academe. His efforts have been highly applauded by many, but not all, who are interested in the Middle East.

And in the second link, Stanley Kurtz goes right to the heart of some of Esposito's comments and advice to USG senior officials that turned out to be wrong given 9/11 and its aftermath. But that is the danger of academe - sometimes you're right and sometimes you're horribly wrong. There is absolutely no denying that Esposito has worked with and in some cases favored Muslims whose actions have turned out to be suspect. But this is common throughout the world and in various political forums, ethnicities and among religious adherents.

What I like about the book which Ann proposed (and yes, I did recommend it to her)is that Esposito offers comments in what I consider a balanced format. By this I mean that he speaks of the evil of fundamentalism pursued by some Muslims, while also depicting the core of the religion.

Definitely HAMAS is a terrorist organization, as the world has seen repeatedly, but some of its branches are humanitarian oriented and serve the Muslim community's less fortunate citizens. In the Arab world, particularly the Muslim Arab world, there is enormous poverty, illiteracy, unemployment, disease and often a loss of hope for the future. By this comment, I do NOT mean to imply that the Arab Muslims should be forgiven for their violent actions due to poverty. They should not! I simply am saying that the levels of poverty are GREAT and that the humanitarian gestures among organizations like HAMAS are depended upon by the people who need help the most. And Esposito points that out.

Margaret Nydell (author of Understanding Arabs) points out that so much about the Arabs and the Middle East is unknown and/or poorly understood by the West. She gives specific examples in her text (which is really more of a primer about Arabs)of how misunderstanding has grown between the West and the Arab countries. If one is already familiar with this brief book, it's worth re-reading.

Karin C. Ryding, Chair of the Arabic Language, Linguistics and Cultures Dept. at Georgetown University wrote to the Chronicle of Higher Education following 9/11 expressing her hope that the U.S. Congress and educators will work together to fund more programs on Arabic language and Middle East studies to provide future highly trtained Arabists. Her point is that there is a dearth of such professionals and, as we have recently seen in Iraq, not knowing the culture, as well as the language of the region, has impeded American decisions, planning for the future, and misunderstanding about how to help citizens of the region.

Certainly John Esposito is NOT the only scholar who has focused on the Middle East, devoted a considerable number of years to the region and its people, and whose work should be understood and familiar. Personally, I still think of Bernard Lewis in this context, but as one of the comments in the articles for which you posted links, the academy no longer considers him in that light. I also think of Karen Armstrong as a much more "deep thinker" on this topic, but speaking/writing from a different perspective than Esposito. Basically, it boils down to a personal choice: some may like one author, while others do not. Some may see Esposito ONLY in the framework of his liaison with Arabs who have turned out to be suspect, rather than his overall interaction in the Arab/Muslim world. And some may simply think that he is to be faulted for the previous (Clinton) Administrtion not taking a more forceful approach to stopping bin Laden.

But as we have seen in the curent Administration, there has been for a very long time (including PRIOR to the Clinton years), a SERIOUS misunderstanding about the Middle East, its people, and prominent officials, as well as those who chose to seek what they call "the true path." An example of this misunderstanding is certainly Saudi Arabia, which for many years (at least as long as Bandar bin Sultant has been Ambassador in Washington) has been considered a close ally of the US Government. However, there have also been undercurrents in the relationship, which have not until recently been made public. A whole new picture of the US/Saudi relationship is now appearing for the first time. And it is NOT pleasant.

So whether Esposito's book is chosen for this discussion or not, we'll just have to depend on poster's interest. His is only one of many interesting books which could be selected.

I am happy to see that this discussion is turning away from light conversation and is turning toward a meaningful discussion of Islam and the danger it poses to itself and to the world. I have been trying to bring Middle Eastern academia via Stanford and UC Berkeley to my community to improve our understanding of the nature of the problem. I have found many light weights who are ready to talk in general about the Middle east but few who can really bring the problem into focus. Perhaps that is the problem the State Dept is having. Clearly, there is a lack of knowledge in the State Dept. or if that is not the case then, those who are knowledgeable have not been able to come to the fore. I am concerned, that as a nation, we do not understand the problem. Why for example, would we attack Iraq after 9-11, when we should be figuring out how to protect ourselves against future terrorist attacks? What is it in the Koran that is erroneously interpreted? Is it a fundementalist interpretation? Can we counter with meaningful propaganda?

I think I would like to read Karen Armstrong and then Esposito but especially the latter since he was advising our State Dept.

We got ourselves into Viet Namn because of a lack of seasoned knowledge in the Asian Bureau. We got ourselves into Iraq because of a lack of realistic knowledge. Now we can not bring about the peace because we don't know enough about these people and their culture.

JUSTIN - "We got ourselves into Viet Namn because of a lack of seasoned knowledge in the Asian Bureau. We got ourselves into Iraq because of a lack of realistic knowledge. Now we can not bring about the peace because we don't know enough about these people and their culture."

Your paragraph (above) succinctly describes the situation that the USA has faced and is facing again. With regard to former generation of "the Arabists" at the Dept. of State (DOS), they had solid CULTURAL as well as language and linguistic training, as well as an indepth (almost scholarly) understanding of Islam, coupled with the regional and local traditions which people wove into their practice of the religion. As Margaret Nydel writes in her small handbook UNDERSTADING ARABS (Revised edition), many of the actions and behaviors presented as "Islamic" are truly just traditional behavior with no particularly religious foundation.

The articles to which George posted the links for us are really very good, because they bring to the reader "the other side" of John Esposito's work. There's always another side to an issue and when one is able to read broadly, then make a decision for oneself, a clearer understanding is arrived at.

Congratulations on your outreach efforts to bring about a better understanding about Islam to your community. It's a big responsibility, because one must cut through all of the media and stereotypes. People - just because they are human, I guess - always are a bit suspicious of "others." We see this in many communities. Sad, but true. Have you tried contacting a local mosque to ask if they have educators who might contribute to your community programs? Most of the mosques in our metropolitan Washington DC area are only too glad to suggest members who are willing to reach out to the community.

Hopefully, Ann will be able to present us with a new title for discussion. I look forward to resumeing a well balanced sharing of thoughts at that time.

We should have a "proposal" up in the next few days. It will be in the folder for "proposed books". If you intend to read and discuss, then sign up in that folder. We need a quorum of 3 or 4 to get the discussion ready for June 1. I have a library copy of the book and certainly it should be easy to get from the local libraries or in a used bookstore. I think the price is $12.95 new from B&N.

I just posted this note in the Islam discussion, but I thought it might also be of interest to readers here, along with the link to an interesting article in the Washington Post about Sharia (Islamic) Law. If the Esposito book is introduced as our next discussion focus, this article will be a good side reference to Islamic practices.

Sharia Law - here's a link to an interesting article in the Washington Post about an Islamic Court of Civil Justice, working in conjunction with Canadian civil law, to allow Muslims to arbitrate non-criminal issues according to Sharia (Islamic) Law. There is some concern about Muslim women, especially those who are uneducated and/or new immigrants to Canada and unaware of their civil rights, being coerced into accepting arbitration on domestic issues by Sharia Law. But since educated Muslim women are being trained in various aspects of Sharia Law, as well as Canadian civil law, there is strong hope for success.

It's interesting that, according to the article, "Jewish courts (Beit Din)have been operating in Ontario for years," yet the Muslim community (estimated at more than 600,000) has only recently supported efforts to introduce Sharia Law.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47735-2004Apr27.html

I wonder what role Catholic Canon Law plays in domestic disputes between Catholics in Canada?

The book by John Esposito is up in the proposed folder today. If you want to read and discuss this book, do sign up in that folder.

Justin,

I am not aware of any Catholic disputes being adjucticated by Catholic Canon Law. A noteworthy question! If Judism and Islam is doing it, why not the Catholics? And, what about the other Christian churches-Baptist, Presbyterian etc.??

Where do I take the question that I have about the call to prayer, five times a day, breaking our laws of separation of church and state??? I premise this on the city councils having the final say so on this subject.

And, doesn't my concern about the 'faith-based initiative" also fall into the same category??

I am reading a most interesting book about the Jewish people.....It is not exactly a religious book but of course no book about the Jewish people could not have lots of religious material in it.....Just let me say that I had no idea..........The name of the book is "Unsettled, an anthropology of the Jews", by Melvin Konner.....I am toward the end reading about what happend in Germany and Poland and I had to lay it aside for a bit...... very disturbing...I thought I had the general idea of it all but not really....... It is a long book but very readable.....

That sounds very interesting. I will see if I can find a copy at the library.

Will you be joining us to "Islamic Threat"? If so, do post in the folder up for that book.

Has anyone else heard about the possibility of them finding the Ark?? I heard a news report about this man who is paying for the expedition to the top of Mt Ararat. He put out a call to all archeaologists to contact him if they would be willing to go on the expedition. Annnnd, he is also saying that he wants the climbers to consist of folks from the three main religions which are monotheistic. Most interesting, hmmmmm??? He says the cost to him will be about $900,000!! Whoa!

Yes, I have been to the folder.....Checked out a book today by Esposito and one by Bernard Lewis regarding Islam and the west but NOT the one we are reading in June...... I heard a little snippet somewhere on the news today regarding the ark......I won't hold my breath......to very long ago I fear...........

Unsettled is an excellent book which I finished about a month ago. I will look for the Esposito book but suspect that I will not read it. I want to also look at books by Lewis and Armstrong, both of whom I highly recommend.

georgehd.......yes...."UnSettled" was really something to sink one's teeth into......I have just finished a book by Lewis, "What Went wrong" and am now reading one by Esposito.....it is newer than the one which we will be reading in June.....written after 9/11....... The name escapes me right now..........I am learning much......

Yesterday, I checked out Karen Armstrong's book plus a Lewis book. Both titles escape me at the moment. And, of course, I am reading Esposito's "Islamic Threat" as the author has updated it for a third time. I believe my copy that I purchased from "Alibris" in their used and new books for $7.49( includes shipping) is the third edition which was just pre-9/11. 1999 edition. I have found used and new copies for as little as $1.39 on Amazon if you are interested. I needed a copy that I could mark up for discussing. Too bad that I didn't see the $1.39 book first! :<)

Ann I will have a look see on amazon........

Got that 1.39 book! The postage was more than that!! I have been buying quite a few used books both from Barnes & Noble and Amazon......they have all been in excellent condition and arrive faster than when ordering the new ones.....some I think are copies from libraries......have been most pleased......

Great that you were able to get the $1.39 copy. Even if its not in perfect condition, if it can be read for $1.39 and marked up, if needed, its worth the postage to have it.

you bet....I agree with you.....am looking forward to this discussion.....

I am leaving for a vacation at Fripp Island on Saturday and won't be returning until May 31. See you all on June 1st.

My 1.39 book arrived today and it is MINT condition...looks like it was a library copy........

Kinda interesting thing happened the other day... I was with a group of ladies and one ask me a question... in my usual long-winded style I answered... and she ask me about Islam... and I said, etc, etc... and she went to another one of the ladies and said, Lou said... and that lady said, Would you teach a class for us on world religions? and I said, what I know will take about 5 minutes to tell, but I'll be happy to share what I know... She said, that 5 minutes more than we know...

And then yesterday a Teaching Company catalog came... called her and we ordered a set of videos on the 5 great world religions...

I guess the moral of this typically long winded tale is, beware of how much your teacher knows when you take a class!!! And thanks to you all for your recommendations for the TC classes, I could recommend them with confidence!!

Lou

I am looking for a copy of the book, Grace Thus Far, and have been unable to find it. It was written as a biography by the pastor of the Madison Avenue Presbyterian Church in New York City, David Read. I would also like to find a copy of a companion book by the same author, This Grace Given. Are these books available in print? Thanks.

LOU - I think you'll have a great time with your World Religions class, especially if you offer it from a comparative religion standpoint. I'll be interested to hear about your experience as you progress through the class. When do you begin?

Here's a link to our Books Exchange folder:

Books Wanted

This is a good place to put that request and many times people have the book that you wanted in the other folder so do look up there,too. Its titled, "Books Offered" or something like that. Hope you have good luck finding your books.

Glad you have received the book, tigerlily. I do feel so good when I get a cheap book that's in good condition.

Come join us today while we are getting started on "The Islamic Threat"!!

Just out in bookshops. I just read it and passed it on to a friend. It is an excellent story of boy who is introduced to a catholic monk who is instrumental in shaping his spiritual life from the age of 14 on.

may I suggest joining Robbie in the wonderful discussion Durant's "Story of Civilization" which will start a new book on Sept 5th title "Age of Faith".

Age of Faith

ANN - I wondered if you're familiar with Bart Ehrman's LOST CHRISTIANITIES about the Gnostic gospels? I watched a local Bookmarks program where he was the guest and his comments were quite interesting. Although the Gnostic gospels may not be well known outside of the sector of religious academics or theologians, they certainly played an important role in the early Christian church, even if they were overpowered by Orthodox Christianity. Ehrman spoke of the importance of the archaeological manuscript discoveries in Egypt and how they shone a new light on the interpretation of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. He also spoke of the Gospel of Thomas. Professor Ehrman (a New Testament scholar at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill) shared some interesting experiences about how students respond to information about the Gnostic gospels, with which many of them are totally unfamiliar - and quite skeptical of in some cases.

Yes, I have heard of the Gnostic Gospels as didn't we discuss reading Elaine Pagels? book about them?? Wrong author??? Hmmmm!

Bart Ehrman's LOST CHRISTIANITIES

I can highly recommend this book... was a gift from our daughter along with his LOST SCRIPTURES which includes the books he talks about in the first book. We have also listened to his Teaching Company lectures on this subject... He is very knowledgable about this subject and manages to make it interesting without the book be intimidating reading.

Lou

Here is a link to an interesting review of Elaine Pagels' BEYOND BELIEF: The Secret of the Gospel of Thomas. I've enjoyed Pagels' GNOSTIC GOSPELS and am looking forward to reading this new publication.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/9769722.htm

Persian, I'm so excited... E Pagels will be in Charlotte NC tomorrow! We plan to be at her talk Friday night and at the breakfast on Saturday... discussing Beyond Belief!!! Now, fingers crossed... Lord willing and the creeks don't rise!

Lou

LOU - we recently relocated to Concord (about 20 miles NE of Charlotte) and I'm learning alot about the area from the Charlotte Observer. That's where I read about Elaine Pagels giving a presentation at Davidson College and then a seminar at the church on the weekend. PLEASE TAKE VERY GOOD NOTES and let us know what you thought of her remarks. I've heard her speak and was impressed.

LOU - we recently relocated to Concord (about 20 miles NE of Charlotte

Oh, My Gosh!!! how great!!! do you like the area, so far? I understand the Friday night session will be recorded... I ask because I couldn't decide how in the world I could listen and take notes too!! They were not sure about the SAt session, breakfast...

Welcome to NC!!!

oh, and by the way... Hubby and I are using the Great Religions of the World tapes, we began with the Islam ones, with a local group trying to understand more about the folks around us... they are really good, we did 2 lectures with lots and lots of info last week... almost more than the brain could hold... fascinating...

Lou

If we're anywhere near each other, I'd love to learn more about the folks with whom you're interacting in the Great Religion series. It is a splendid learning tool and I know you will lenjoy it. Since we left Maryland at the end of June, I've been in touch with two of the mosques in Charlotte and talked with several people on the Mayor's International Council and the new Arab-American Chamber. And of course I've followed the local news about the Islamic and Jewish communities in the area, too. Did you see the special on Channel 58 last week on Shalom Park in Charlotte? It was a fine presentation about the origins of the Jewish community in Charlotte and the surrounding areas from the mid 1880's to the present. Very informative and such great timing - right before Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.

I've also been in touch with several of the editors at The Charlotte Observer about specialized articles during the Jewish and Muslim holidays. It's interesting to be in a new place and see how the local community is so diverse - and growing. I just learned about the Cedarland Middle Eastern Store (from the Food Editor of the Observer)at 4832 Central Avenue in Charlotte and plan to visit it soon.

I know you will enjoy Pagels' presentations. I look forward to your follow-up comments.

I am reading "The Woman With the Alabaster Jar" by Margaret Starbird. This author has written several non-fiction books about the "feminine" in the Christianity and her books are very well written and researched. A comment by John Shelby Spong, Episcopal bishop and author Born of a Woman:

"Margaret Starbird is a seeker after truth, not defender of doctrine. She recognizes that orthodoxy is orthodox because it won and not necessarily because it is true. She seeks to recover the long suppressed, and not infrequently emotionally opposed, feminine side of the Christian story. Hers is an exciting narrative probing regions of thought long neglected, Magdalen, the Great Mary, emerges with new power."

Here's a link to the front and first chapter in the book: The Woman With the Alabaster Jar

What did you think of Elaine Pagels and her newest book? I hope you and your husband enjoyed your two days with her and that you will be able to give us your opinion of the book here.

The Story of Civilization in the Books & Literture folder, has just begun its discussion of Islam and all are welcome. To encourage a fuller understanding of the religion and its people, the DL has encouraged a well paced and careful look at the historical aspects of the period in which Islam was introduced by its Prophet Muhammad and the region where it was born.

The initial posts cover the pre-Islamic period and will offer an in-depth look at the history, culture and people of the birthplace of Islam, as well as the family heritage of its Prophet Muhammad. As with earlier aspects of the SOC, the discussion is designed to encourage a fuller understandg of the topic, while at the same time inviting participants to post their questions, comments and arguments (in a respectful manner, of coruse). This is a wonderful opportunity for contemporary society to learn about an ancient religion and its people, while also recognizing the role of contemporary Islam today.

Come and join us!

The author of this fine book is Feisal Abdul Rauf.....He is the imam of Masjid al-Faah in New York City. If there are any of you are woefully lacking in understanding of Islam this is the book for you. He makes a statement that many Christians as well as Muslims are ignorant of their own religions tenets.I have not yet finished the book but can hardly put it down. Where is everyone? Where I have been I guess.......lol

. . . recommend has a title that is almost the opposite of yours, but they probably mean the same thing underneath the words. It's called "The Trouble with Islam", and I found it not only brutally hones, but historically interesting, written by a Muslim who wishes to reform her faith into what it was truly meant to be instead of the sort of perversion of it we see today, which is based on Arab tribal culture and not necessarily the Koran. I would love to discuss this book. Will also see if I can get hold of the one you have recommended. I am delighted to see Muslims speaking up to correct the obvious wrongs we are seeing, and getting proper debate moving.

Here is a review: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=175kbcn9zS&isbn=0312326998&itm=1

the book Tigerliley suggested: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=175kbcn9zS&isbn=0060582723&itm=1

The title, The Trouble With Islam, that you have suggested for reading has been put forth before and was not well received by some. I also have read the book, about a year ago, and really enjoyed it. But, saying that, I came across another article located on a Muslim site that doesn't really care for the book and says why.

Irshad Manji

There are always two sides and sometime three.

I noticed in rereading some of the posts that I already posted a book that I am just now finishing. I'm getting slower and slower!

Posters who have been her